RULING ON THE POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON NICKSON CHILANGWA, MP, MINISTER FOR LUAPULA PROVINCE AGAINST DR CHISHIMBA KAMBWILI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR ROAN PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY ON WHETHER DR C KAMBWILI, MP, WAS IN ORDER TO GO AGAINST THE RULES OF THE HOUSE BY PEDDLING FALSEHOODS ON EMOLUMENTS OF MINISTERS

Hon Members, the House will recall that on Thursday, 6th December, 2018, when the Hon Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi, Mr E Sing’ombe, MP, was debating Head 45 on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare, the Minister for Luapula Province, Hon N Chilangwa, MP, raised the following Point of Order:

“Sir, I am compelled to rise on this point of order because of recent rantings by one of us in this House. It is very clear that emoluments for hon. Members of Parliament and Hon Ministers are very much, as we all know, dealt with by a special Committee here and by a Statutory Instrument, and that us, as Hon Members of Parliament, all of us, even Ministers are Members of Parliament.

That is the bottom line, but in recent days, one hon. Member of Parliament – probably the outgoing Member of Parliament for Roan Parliamentary Constituency – has gone on rampage peddling falsehoods to the nation that hon. Ministers have had their salaries increased by K41,000, knowing very well that those are falsehoods.

Is the Hon Member of Parliament for Roan Parliamentary Constituency in order to go against the rules of this House by going out there and peddling falsehoods knowing very well that they are not correct without getting the clarifications or without delving into the facts? Is the Hon Member of Parliament in order to go in the manner that he is going, to act in the manner he is acting and rant in the manner that he is ranting? I seek your serious ruling.”

Hon Members, in my response, I reserved the ruling in order for me to respond in a measured fashion. I have studied the matter and I will now render my ruling.

Hon Members, the Point of Order raises the following issues:

(i) whether matters discussed outside the precincts of Parliament can be debated on the Floor of the House; and 

(ii) whether the House can debate matters that relate to Members’ emoluments.

Hon Members, with regard to matters discussed outside the precincts of Parliament, I have had occasion to rule on a similar matter in my Ruling on the Point of Order Raised by the then Minister of Youth and Sport, Hon Chishimba Kambwili, MP, Against the Member of Parliament for Choma Central Parliamentary Constituency, Hon Cornelius Mweetwa, MP (Parliamentary Debates of the First Meeting of the Fourth Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, 19th September – 17th December, 2014, at pages 833-834). In that matter, I ruled, at page 834 as follows:

“I want to repeat what has been said in this House many times before that, matters that occur outside should not be brought to this House but should remain and be concluded outside the House. I do understand that the statements by Hon Kambwili, MP, were made on a live call-in programme on UNZA Radio.  This being the case, Mr C Mweetwa, MP, had the opportunity to raise his views on Hon Kambwili's sentiments during the programme.  The Member decided not to do so, and instead raised a Point of Order in this House and, this led to a contest on facts whose material allegations I was not privy to. Hon Members, this presents difficulties to presiding officers in ruling on such matters.

I, would therefore, like to urge all Hon Members to refrain from drawing the House into discussions taking place outside the House because presiding officers are not privy to such discussions, and are as a result of these points of order, compelled to ascertain facts of those discussions, which at any rate are not relevant to the business of the House.  In future, I will simply not entertain any Point of Order which brings discussions outside the House.”

Hon Members, it should be noted that in his Point of Order, the Hon Minister for Luapula Province did not indicate the place where the alleged falsehoods were being peddled by Dr Kambwili, MP.  However, it is clear that the statements being referred to were made outside the precincts of Parliament and can therefore not be a subject of debate in the House.

Hon Members, I further wish to remind the House that the subject matter of the Point of Order relates to the emoluments of Members of Parliament. As Hon Members are aware, it is an established practice that this House does not debate itself.  It is for this reason that even when approving the estimates of revenue and expenditure for the Republic, the House does debate the estimates for the National Assembly.  Therefore, delving into a Point of Order relating to the emoluments of Members, would be tantamount to debating ourselves, which goes against the practice of the House.