Tuesday, 27^th March, 2018

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

__________

 

ANNOUNCEMENT

 

CONSULTATIVE MEETING ON PROPOSED CONSTITUENCY EVELOPMENT FUND BILL

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform you that the Ministry of Local Government has organised a consultative meeting for you on the proposed Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Bill.

 

The meeting will take place on Thursday, 29^th March, 2018, at 0900 hours, in the Amphitheatre, here, at Parliaments Buildings. The meeting follows you request to have an input into the Bill before it is presented to the House for debate.

 

You are all, therefore, encouraged to attend the meeting on a voluntary basis.

 

I thank you.

 

__________

 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

PROGRESS ON THE REVIEW OF THE CONSTUTITION

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to update the House, and through it, the nation at large on the final stages in the process of refining the Republican Constitution.

 

Madam Speaker, during my last update on this matter, I stated that the Ministry of Justice, in line with its work programme, had retreated to Siavonga from 25^th February to 2^nd March, 2018, and considered comments and submissions from various stakeholders.

 

Madam Speaker, the ministry is currently preparing the Draft Constitution Amendment Bill, 2018, taking into account the stakeholders’ comments and submissions. It is expected to finalise the drafting of the Bill by 13^th April, 2018. The draft copy of the Bill will, thereafter, be subjected to scrutiny by a team of independent draftspersons and eminent scholars between 16^th and 20^th April, 2018. On 23^rd April, 2018, the ministry will proceed with the process of obtaining Cabinet approval, in principal, to present the Bill to introduce in Parliament. The Bill will, then, be published for thirty days, as is required by law, between 10^th May and 10^th June, 2018.

 

Madam Speaker, in order to continue with the practice of broad consultation, the ministry will hold a consultative caucus for hon. Members of Parliament on 12^th June, 2018. That will be followed by a consultative meeting of Secretaries-General of political parties on 13^th June, 2018. The outcomes of the caucus of Parliamentarians and the consultative meeting of Secretaries-General will, then, be presented to a summit of political party presidents to be held on 15^th and 16^th June, 2018.

 

Madam Speaker, whereas, the caucus of Parliamentarians will be facilitated by the ministry, the meeting of Secretaries-General and the summit of presidents will be facilitated by the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue (ZCID).

 

Madam Speaker, the ministry anticipates that the Bill will be presented to Parliament for first reading on 19^th June, 2018. It is the Government’s belief that, through this process, all the divergent stakeholder views on the Constitution will be brought to the discussion table in keeping with our theme of not leaving anyone behind.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, you are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement issued by the hon. Minister of Justice.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Justice for his statement on such an important matter in our land, that is, amending a Constitution that must be respected.

 

Madam, the nomenclature of the original document that we are now working on is the “Mung’omba Draft Constitution”. Now that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has engaged technocrats to consider the comments and recommendations made on the process by various stakeholders, will the document still be called the Mung’omba Draft Constitution? In short, is this a PF-driven process or is it one that carries the people along? I ask this because, clearly, I have been left behind.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, we are all aware that the process that was led by the late Willa Mung’omba came to an end when this House passed the amendment to the Constitution in 2015, which was assented to by His Excellency the President on 5^th January, 2016. What we are engaged in is a refinement of the Constitution that was passed by this House. So, it would be totally anomalous to refer to it as a continuation of the Mung'omba Constitution Review Commission.

 

Madam Speaker, the allegation that the hon. Member for Mazabuka has been left behind is totally unfair because, as the House is aware, from February, 2017, the Government has been requesting all political parties, including the United Party for National Development (UPND), the party to which the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central belongs, and other stakeholders to make submissions on the process of refining the Constitution.

 

Madam Speaker, in keeping with our spirit of not leaving anyone behind, we have even chosen to do something that is unprecedented. Ordinarily, after the Constitution Amendment Bill is approved by Cabinet and published, it ought to be presented to Parliament for consideration right away. However, in keeping with our desire for further consultation, we have allowed this process to be subjected to even further consideration. There will be a meeting for Parliamentarians at which even those whose parties did not make submissions can do so. After that, we shall cascade the process to the Secretaries-General and presidents of political parties before the first reading of the Bill is made on the Floor of the House on the 19^th of June, 2018.

 

Madam Speaker, it is unfair for anyone to claim that they were left behind. There are some who decided to remain behind, but we are giving them a second chance. If they choose to remain behind again, then, I am afraid, we will have nothing more to say.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Madam Speaker, I am asking this question on behalf of the people of Kaputa. I want everybody to know that the people of Kaputa asked me to ask this question.

 

Madam Speaker, at an important time like this, when the Ministry of Justice is in the final stages of drafting the Constitution Amendment Bill, the United Party for National Development (UPND) has moved a Motion to impeach the President, whom they neither voted for nor accept.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mr Ng’onga: Will this environment be conducive for dealing with an important subject like refining the Constitution?

 

Mr Livune: You are a former church elder.

 

Mr Ng’onga: This is for the people of Kaputa.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, in responding to the people of Kaputa, I wish to state that the calibre of parents is known by how they react to frustration or requests made by their children.

 

Madam Speaker, President Edgar Lungu is aware that there is some discussion about impeaching him. However, in his magnanimity, he realises that he has a duty to perform that goes beyond the talk of his impeachment. The President is very clear in his mind that he has a mandate from Zambians and that there will be some sections of society that will not be happy that it is he who was given the mandate by Zambians.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: He will not react to every little thing or be provoked by issues he deems trivial.

 

Madam Speaker, the matter to which the hon. Member has referred is one whose outcome society is still waiting to see. However, it will not, in any way, derail the Government, which is determined to continue to provide leadership to the people of Zambia with President Edgar Lungu at the helm until the elections scheduled for 2021.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: That is the reason I, as Minister of Justice, can stand before you and say that we have a road map not only on the Constitution refinement process, but also to lead this country until the next elections and, by the will of the people, for many years to come.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: This is our determination and our confidence, and we shall not be distracted. When a fly flies by my meal, I do not throw away the meal, but swat the fly and continue eating. So, we shall continue to govern.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Musonda (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned the consultative processes that will take place before the Bill is presented to Parliament. Clearly missing from that process are stakeholders like the church mother bodies and non-governmental organisations (NGOs). Have those stakeholders already been consulted or are they yet to be given chance?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, like I indicated, we started this process in February, 2017. At an opportune time, I will lay on the Table the various organisations that made submissions. For now, all I can do, on behalf of Zambians and the Government, is thank and heartily congratulate the many institutions that made submissions on this process.

 

Madam Speaker, at this stage, if we reopen the Pandora’s Box by bringing everybody on board, as you can imagine, we will not finish it. What the Government has chosen to do, instead, is bring the political players together. Faith-based organisations (FBOs), civil society organisations (CSOs), sports institutions and the media all have a say in this matter, but it ends here where elected political leaders gather. This is the reason we chose, before the 164 of us are seized with the challenge of looking at the amendment, to go out to our sponsors, the political parties, so that they can guide us on what to do when we finally come here.

 

Madam Speaker, the short of it all is that we have consulted all the institutions and it would be too difficult for us to invite all of them again. Had the time and resources permitted, we would have done that, but that will prolong the whole process. We will limit it to political parties and, finally, Parliamentarians.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for this very important report to the august House.

 

Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister rightly said, the Constitution is a national issue, and it is very important that consultations will be made in order to build consensus. It is also very important that when the Constitution is presented to the House, at least, a two-thirds majority vote for it. Otherwise, the Constitution will fail, as the hon. Minister knows. We have many issues with the Constitution and I would like to zero in on the technical aspect. We need expert constitutional lawyers to guide. I heard the hon. Minister talk about experts coming in. Has he considered inviting constitutional law experts like Prof. Muna Ndulo, Prof. Hansungule and Dr Chalokwa Beyani? Prof. Muna Ndulo and Dr Chalokwa Beyani participated actively in the making of the Kenyan Constitution, which is one of the best. When is the hon. Minister considering bringing in the people mentioned to provide the necessary expertise?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabompo for that question.

 

Madam Speaker, in coming up with a law, especially the Constitution, you should do it without particular individuals in mind. The names my hon. Colleague mentioned are only three among many constitutional lawyers in this country. For reasons best known to him, however, he chose only those three. Why not the others? If he wants to give names of constitutional lawyers we can ask to participate, he should give us the whole list.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Your cadres.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, who says that those three are the repository…

 

Mr Nkombo: It was just an example of competent people.

 

Mr Lubinda: … of the skill of constitution-making in the country? The process, like I said, will engage independent experts. Experts who are inclined to particular political parties and whose names are being proposed, I am afraid, will not be considered independent.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Speaker, I would like to preface my question with the statement that we, the hon. Members on your left, respect the Constitution of Zambia, hence our lodging in of the impeachment Motion that is causing so much concern on your right.

 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: We are using the Constitution.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Leader of the Opposition, the statement issued by the hon. Minister is about the road map on constitution-making.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have guided. Let us have order on the left.

 

Please, continue, hon. Leader of the Opposition.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, this issue has been raised on the Floor of the House and the hon. Minister of Justice has commented on it. That is why I had to preface my question with a reference to it.

 

Madam Speaker, I was in this House when the Patriotic Front (PF) Government introduced the so-called defective Constitution on the Floor of this House and my colleagues on your right, including the hon. Minister of Justice, were assuring us that they were introducing a Constitution that would stand the taste of time. We advised them that the failure to exhaust consultations would be disastrous and so it become. It has been proved.

 

Madam Speaker, I have heard the hon. Minister say that there will be a one-day consultative meeting for hon. Members of Parliament, and party secretaries-general and presidents after the Bill has been published. Can hon. Minister confirm, very categorically, that the resolutions of the meetings will be included before the matter is finally determined by the National Assembly.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, let me emulate the hon. Leader of the Opposition by prefacing my response this way: We, on your right, not only respect that question, …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: … but also respect the procedures of Parliament and, most importantly, keep our word. Further, we do not twist facts.

 

Madam, it will be remembered that had it not been for the firm position that you took, this Parliament would have been embarrassed when some people gathered here and made it almost impossible for anyone to be heard. What was the message? “We want the Constitution as drafted at Mulungushi International Conference Centre (MICC), without even a comma being changed”.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: This Government listened to that.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah, no!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I will pick one issue that I know is very close to the heart of the hon. Leader of the Opposition. Whereas there were five or so amendments proposed by this side of the House, the time frame for the determination of a presidential petition, which is the fourteen days, as stipulated in the Constitution, was not touched at all. The fact that he stood here with his colleagues and demanded that we did not amend the Constitution made us to not amend the fourteen days provision. What happened later? The matter caught up with him.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Now, these very honourable people, even after we waited for a year, from February, 2017, to February, 2018, literally pleading for them to make submissions, chose not to provide them. They considered themselves more important than the Constitution of the land. That notwithstanding, President Edgar Lungu, again, in his magnanimity, has said, “I do not want you to go to Parliament and present a Constitution Amendment Bill without giving all the political players another opportunity”.

 

Madam Speaker, we tried that with the Political Parties Funding Bill and I am proud to report to you that under the ZCID and the Zambia Law Development Commission (ZLDC), the party to which the hon. Leader of Opposition belongs, the UPND was very active. One of the people mentioned earlier actually participated in the process and co-chaired some of the processes. We were happy about it and received their submissions, which form part of the law that will be brought before this House. What we are doing is not academic. We are not the kind of people who say one thing today and another tomorrow.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, we are determined to give all political parties, including the UPND, another bite at the cherry, but we shall not force it down their throats. If they decide that they are too important to take part in this process, that is well and good. However, all the submissions from the caucus of Parliamentarians will be sent to the Secretaries-General and the combination of the outcomes of the caucus of Parliamentarians and the meeting of the Secretaries-General will go to presidents. With everybody’s agreement, this House will amend the Constitution.

 

Madam Speaker, all proposals will be brought and effected on the Floor of the House. Those who are willing to take part in the process should join us while those who think they should not take part and, then, come and cry foul afterwards, they, too, have a Constitutional right to do that. We will not force them. What we will not allow them to do is come, tongue-in-cheek, to change the truth and say, “You pushed it” when we were under pressure to do it. It is on record that we were under serious pressure from, especially, the UPND to present a people-driven Constitution, and that we did not change it.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, that is exactly what we did. I said …

 

Mr Ng’onga: To turn around today!

 

Mr Lubinda: … that for them to turn around now and say, “No, we did not want it” when they stood on the Floor of this House is not acceptable. I think that honourable people ought to live by their word.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Madam Speaker, as the people of Katombola find out how much money has been put aside for this whole process, could Hon. Lubinda also do them a favour, as a man who says he respects the Constitution, to tell the nation when he will pay back the money he obtained illegally when Parliament was dissolved.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have a problem allowing that question.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam, the hon. Minister said that those who are not willing to get on board are free to stay away. From the tone on the other side, it seems to me that they are not willing to have this Constitution amended. However, there are people in Siavonga who are already spending Government money on consultation processes. Does the hon. Minister not see that the process will be an exercise in futility? I know that when this issue comes to this House, it will not go anywhere even after having spent a lot of money. There is also the issue of the United Party for National Development (UPND) not willing to add up to the two-thirds majority in this House. Why did this Government not start with the process of getting both the Patriotic Front (PF) and the UPND to agree on the amendments so that the money spent is not in vain?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, during the course of this debate, I do not think I heard from anyone, not even from the UPND, any opposition to the process. I think, what I am hearing are questions. No one has stated that this process is futile and that they will not take part. I was asked very clear questions, such as on whether what will be agreed will have an impact on the law, and I said it would. So, I do not think it will be fair for me to accept the premise of that question.

 

Madam Speaker, we cannot force anyone to dialogue. Our role is to provide the environment in which people who are willing can dialogue. Those who are not willing can stay away. To say that this is an exercise in futility, I think, is not fair because it goes into the realm of speculation and, as you normally guide us, this Parliament does not work on speculation. Furthermore, on what can we spend if we do not spend on the Principal Law of the country? We have already faced a number of challenges in the interpretation of our laws and that has created some misgivings, difficulties and animosity. Surely, money spent on ensuring that the Supreme Law of the land is understood and accepted by the majority is money well-spent.

 

Madam Speaker, for us in Government, it is not a question of “they against us.” We are handling this matter as ‘us’ together. It is not a matter of the PF against the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD), the PF against the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) or the PF against the UNPD. This is a matter for Zambians. When the Constitution (Amendment) Bill is brought before Parliament and people argue against it, we cannot stop them. It is their constitutional right but, ultimately, all of us in this House are answerable to the people. We experienced it in 2015, when there was a lot of pressure and we tried very hard to use the Constitution to win elections. The people on this side won and I can assure you that they will win again in this process.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Madam Speaker, the Constitution is, indeed, the primary and Supreme Law of the land and among its provisions is a requirement that there be a Head of State and Government. We took an oath and swore to protect and defend the Constitution.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Bwalya: We also pledged allegiance to the President, yet some of our colleagues have categorically refused to accept the legitimately-elected President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu. On the other hand, they have demanded to dialogue with a person they do not accept or recognise. In view of the Constitution-refinement process on which the Government has embarked, what is the relationship between the much-talked-about dialogue and the amendment of the Constitution? Could the hon. Minister shed more light on this issue.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, you cannot reject a drink and, at the same time, take it in the same way that you cannot reject a spouse and still live with them. If, indeed, anybody does not recognise the President, they should do much more than just use it for rhetoric. So, for now, that matter should not really bother the House. The issues of those who pretend not to recognise the Head of State, yet took an oath, come to Parliament every day, pass laws and participate in a legislative programme that ends up being assented to by President Lungu …

 

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: … we should leave for another day.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: For now, all I can say is that, …

 

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

 

Mr Lubinda: … away from the comedy to which my friend is referring, on a serious note, there is a connection between the Constitution-refinement process and dialogue. This is a very important question and I would like to thank my colleague for raising it.

 

Madam, we have been talking about dialogue, but it must be based on something. We need to identify what we are dialoguing over, as we cannot talk about nothing. Dialogue is about substance, and I indicated that various political parties, including the UPND, FDD and MMD, dialogued over the Political Parties Bill.  All of us will dialogue over the Constitution away from Parliament. After that, the Secretaries-General and presidents of our parties will also dialogue. Is this not the dialogue about which we are talking? Or is it dialogue about the weather? I do not think that is the dialogue about which people are talking. Indeed, there is a direct correlation between our desire to dialogue and the Constitution-refinement process we have started.

 

Madam Speaker, let me seize this opportunity to say that my hon. Colleague, the Minister of Home Affairs, and I are finalising the analysis of the submissions from various stakeholders on the Public Order Act. Before we bring the amendment here, we will take it through the same process of dialogue, consultation and consensus-building so that we move together as one united country. We shall do the same with the electoral reform process. We are facilitating dialogue. Some people are talking about dialogue in the abstract, but we do not want to engage in that. We want to talk about dialogue in substance, such as we are doing in the Constitution-refinement process. President Lungu is determined to meet with his colleagues, the political party presidents, to discuss things, not to just to sit and drink tea, because that they can do anytime and anywhere.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister keeps referring to the pressure that we exerted on the Government when we needed a Constitution that was exactly as drafted by the people of Zambia. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government …

 

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: … promised to deliver the Constitution to Zambians in ninety days, which it failed to do. Two issues that were in the Draft Constitution were the appointment of Ministers from outside Parliament and the issue of delimitation. By then, I was in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). However, the Government threw the provisions away with impunity.

 

Mrs M. Phiri: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, Hon. Simbyakula was appointed during the first inauguration of President Lungu to look at the Constitution, but the process took too long, hence the pressure about which the hon. Minister is talking. Could the hon. Minister be sincere to the people of Zambia and this Parliament by stating whether the current Constitution is, verbatim, a  record of the Draft Constitution? 

 

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the sincerity of the hon. Member of Parliament for Ikeleng’i in acknowledging that we were put under tremendous pressure to deliver the Constitution verbatim.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: No comma.

 

Mr Lubinda: However, I request him not to question my sincerity because the Standing Orders, which I am sure he has read the Standing Orders and knows, do not permit him to do that, unless he is able to adduce evidence to the effect that I am not sincere.

 

Madam, we will publish the Constitution Amendment Bill in the Government Gazette. It is the desire of the Government to also publish it in the main daily newspapers and on all Government websites. Further, it will be subjected to consultations, like I said, and I want to assure the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i that when it is brought to the Floor of the House, it will come as published. Nothing will be changed. The only changes that will be effected are those that will go to the relevant Committee of Parliament.

 

Madam Speaker, I remind my colleague, in case he has forgotten how Parliament works, that you will appoint a Committee to scrutinise the Bill and solicit comments from the public, including from hon. Members of Parliament. So, if there will be any outstanding issue, it will be addressed through an amendment moved by him or any other hon. Member. We will present amendments and defend our positions. Therefore, I assure my dear brother that I am as sincere as he is. In fact, were I he, I would join hands with me and make sure that everyone else is sincere and willing to live up to what they did in the past. Then, we would have a better country.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Speaker, I am a little uncomfortable with the hon. Minister’s responses.

 

Madam, when the Draft Constitution Bill was presented to this House, we spent the whole night debating it, and the hon. Minister of Justice was here. A number of us who were re-elected to the House were also here, and I recall that there were so many amendments on which we debated. Clearly, the Draft Constitution was extensively amended. Therefore, for the hon. Minister to say that the draft that came out of the Mulungushi Conference International Conference Centre (MICC) Process was enacted without even a comma being changed is uncomfortable to those of us who were there at both the MICC and here, in the House. In the interest of adhering to the truth as we make statements on the Floor of the House, is the hon. Minister prepared to retract his statement, which is definitely not in accordance with the truth as he and we all know it?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister will do two things. Firstly, he will correct what he said, if he said it the way Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa is putting it. If he did not, he will clarify things for the benefit of the hon. Member for Nalikwanda and the general public.

 

Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I am sure that all of us in the House hold the hon. Member for Nalikwanda in high esteem, as do I, and because of that, all I can say is that, maybe, when I was explaining, his mind had been distracted by something he might not have heard.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Ah!

 

Mr Lubinda: I am sure that even the hon. Leader of the Opposition heard me say that there were a few amendments that we proposed on this side of the House.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I even mentioned five or six of the amendments. I am sure that if Hon. Sing’ombe, who is laughing as though he thinks I am not telling the truth, …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Sing’ombe indicated dissent.

 

Mr Lubinda: … checked the Hansard tomorrow, he will find that statement.

 

Madam, it is a pity that Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa might have been thinking about something else when I was responding and, therefore, did not hear me correctly. However, even the people on his side heard me when I said there were four or five amendments made by this group here. So, I have nothing to retract. In fact, I wish I could apologise on his behalf, but that is his duty. Maybe, he was thinking about how this process …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

 

 It does not matter what he was thinking about.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think you have made yourself very clear.

 

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Justice in a position to inform this House how much money he has budgeted for the process of amending the Constitution?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam, I regret that I do not have the figures at hand. If my hon. Colleague wishes, he can turn to the Yellow Book and see that the process is provided for. However, if he wants me to do that for him, with your permission, I can check and give him the figures.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister might be aware that there are political parties led by Secretaries-General, the, nashala neka parties. At what level will such parties be represented in the meeting of presidents?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

Can you translate “nashala neka parties” in English.

 

Mr Nanjuwa: Madam, a nashala neka party is a one-person party.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, indeed, there are many parties with different kinds of configurations, and some are led by Secretaries-General instead of presidents. I suppose the question is: Will the Secretaries-General for such parties represent their parties at both the Secretaries-General and the presidents’ meetings? 

 

Madam, the office of president, in this case, is not necessarily by title, but by function. So, when it comes to the meeting of Secretaries-General, we shall invite the people in all political parties who perform the function of Chief Executive Officer (CEO). In other parties, they are called National Secretaries. For the presidents’ summit, we shall take those who hold the highest position of leadership in the parties. Unfortunately, positions like ‘consultant’ are neither at the Secretaries-General nor the presidents level. In normal practice, consultants only advise. They do not lead, instruct, fire or hire. They only provide consultancy services. So, I do not think that we will want consultants for political parties in those fora. The consultants will give advice to the parties they are consulting for. Regarding the participation of political parties with only one member, we shall leave that for the ZCID to decide.

 

Madam Speaker, the most recent Chairperson of the ZCID is a person I know very well, the Secretary-General of the UPND, Mr Steven Katuka. So, if the hon. Member took time to talk to him, he will be told exactly how the ZCID is configured. Some small parties like the ones about which he spoke, the one-man political parties, also have representation on the board of the ZCID. However, indeed, it is time for people to start realising that the bigger the political party to which they belong the better it is for them. So, this is an opportunity for those who have small parties to try to grow them, but they can only do so on the basis of truth.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, first of all, I thank the hon. Minister for his statement and for being part of a listening Government.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwamba: Madam, I say this because, sometime in 2016, Zambians cried for a people-driven Constitution and this Government provided a people-driven Constitution. Unfortunately, there were some lacunae. Again, the people have said that they want the lacunae to be filled. However, the United Party for National Development (UPND) is objecting this process.

 

Madam Speaker, will the Constitution …

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point or order.

 

Madam, we have a duty to be honest, truthful and respectful to one another. In this discourse, the hon. Member for Lubansenshi seems to be hearing things none of us is hearing, such as resistance and objection to the ministerial statement. In my view, the hon. Member wants to pity the United Party for National Development (UPND) against the public. Is he in order to hear things that are non-existent? I need your serious ruling

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is that he is certainly out order …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … because I have not heard any objection from the left on this statement. The hon. Member for Lubansenshi will take that into account as he proceeds to now ask the question.

 

Mr Mwamba: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the guidance.

 

Madam, I brought in the UPND because …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

 

Mr Mwamba: … it is the only party …

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

 

Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, there is a statement that has been issued by the hon. Minister of Justice on the road map on the amendment of the Constitution. I did not hear the hon. Minister talk about the United Party for National Development (UPND) in the statement. So, ask the question. I allowed you to give a preamble. Please, ask the question now.

 

Mr Mwamba: Madam Speaker, will the filling of the lacunae be based on needs of a particular opposition party or will it be based on the needs of the majority of Zambians?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, when starting the refining process, we opened it up to the stakeholders because we take the strong position that the Constitution of Zambia is more important than even our political party. It is not a Constitution that should be written with any particular party in mind, but one that should meet the minimum aspirations of Zambians. So, even as we proceed with this issue, we will open it up for further dialogue among political parties to make sure that the divergent views of as many of the representatives of the people as possible are considered so that, ultimately, the Constitution will reflect the desire of the majority. I, therefore, assure my hon. Colleague that the Government will not succumb to pressure from any political party, but will do everything with the interest of Zambians in mind.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

_________

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

PAYMENT OF TERMINAL BENEFITS

 

248. Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central) asked the Minister of Finance:

 

1. why retired public workers had not been paid their terminal benefits for a long time; and

 

1. what measures were being taken to alleviate the suffering of the retirees.

 

The Minister of Finance (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Madam Speaker, firstly, let me explain what terminal benefits are.

 

Madam, terminal benefits are payable to Public Service workers upon separation from the Government. They include leave pay, long service bonus and repatriation allowance. These benefits are budgeted for by the ministries, provinces and other spending agencies (MPSAs) under “Other Emoluments”.

 

Madam Speaker, the delay in paying terminal benefits is due to the challenges we face on the fiscal front, which lead to the low revenue collection the country has been facing against competing expenditure needs.

 

Madam, the failure by civil servants to take their annual leave, preferring to commute days to cash also puts pressure on the Treasury. The third reason is the huge pay increase awarded in 2013, which  raised employers’ contributions and size of benefits due for payment, as the law requires the use of the last pay for calculating benefits, and this puts pressure on the limited resource envelop.

 

Madam, despite the above challenges, the Government has been, over the years, increasing the budgetary allocation to Other Emoluments to K944 million in 2016, K1.1 billion in 2017 and K1.12 billion in 2018 in order to clear outstanding terminal benefits arrears.

 

Madam Speaker, in 2017, the Treasury made 100 per cent budgetary releases to all, but three ministries namely; General Education, Health and Agriculture, and the Zambia Police in terms of Other Emoluments. In addition, the Treasury has been facilitating the release of funds towards the dismantling of terminal benefit arrears through other Budget lines related to arrears. For example, in 2017, terminal benefits were paid from the centralised Budget line for dismantling arrears under the Ministry of Finance.

 

Madam Speaker, in order to alleviate the suffering of the retirees, and based on our arrears clearance strategy, priority was given to the dismantling of pension arrears through budgetary provisions. The ministry now provides for the full amount of the deficit at the beginning of each year. For instance, in the 2017 Budget, the Government allocated K1.65 billion to the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF) for paying retirement befits, which led to a reduction on the retiree waiting period from 736 days at end of 2016 to 558 days at the end of 2017. In 2018, the Government has allocated K1.06 billion in order to further reduce the waiting period to below 366 days. We plan to reduce the period further in 2019.

 

Madam, between January and February, 2018, the Government also released K7.5 million as salaries for Public Service workers who retired, but have not yet been paid their pension and terminal benefits. This benefited 494 retirees. The Government also allows the MPSAs, with prior authority, to apply savings realised on their Personal Emoluments budgets to the liquidation of arrears on terminal benefits. As a way of controlling expenditure, the Government also encourages workers to take their annual leave.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government has also embarked on pension reforms to address the challenge of pension arrears once and for all. The reforms will halt the growth in the actuarial deficit through the opening up of Public Service pension funds to new entrants and under a unified national pension system, and upgrading contributory rates. The draft Bill that will reform the pension system is at an advanced stage and will be presented to Parliament in 2018.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government recently fired medical doctors and other workers. They were supposedly retired in the national interest. We have had to employ other people to replace them, which really took a toll on Government coffers. The retired people continue getting full salaries when they are not working, and the Government does not know when they will get their benefits. Surely, was it prudent for the Government to retire those people without any plan for paying them their benefits immediately they were retired so that they did not continue getting salaries?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, I said that we are paying full salaries to 494 pensioners. We do not have the fiscal space to pay them their benefits. So, we have kept them on the payroll, as per the Republican Constitution.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated to this House and the nation at large that the failure on the part of the Government to meet the obligation of paying Public Service employees who have been retired is a result of the fiscal space. The hon. Minister is aware that, last year, the Government decided to buy forty-two fire tenders at US$1 million each, which was US$42 million in total. It, then, insured them for US$250,000 each, thereby implying that was the actual value of each of them.

 

Madam Speaker, does the hon. Minister not think that it was imprudent of the Government to divert money to such a venture and fail to pay the hardworking people who served it diligently, but have been made destitute? Most of them sleep at the Inter-City Bus Terminals and some markets because they have no other source of income. Does she think it was prudent for the Government to waste US$750,000 per fire tender, instead of paying the correct amount and paying the hardworking former Public Service employees their money?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, first of all, I want to confirm to this House that tender procedures were followed in the procurement of the fire tenders. Secondly, this Government was very concerned about the increase in the incidence of fires right across the country that were being started by unknown people.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: We had to enhance our capacity to contain potential fire outbreaks.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Madam Speaker, the other day, I think the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare addressed physically-challenged civil servants when and assured them that she would ensure that they were on the Government’s payroll, and that raised some doubts in me as to whether all the retired civil servants who have not yet been paid their benefits are on the Government payroll. Can the hon. Minister confirm that every retired civil servant who has not yet been paid terminal benefits is on the Government payroll.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, if I understood Hon. Livune’s question, he is asking me whether every Public Service retiree is on the Government payroll. Is that the question?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, the current position is that all public servants who have been retired, but have not been given their benefits must remain on the payroll. So, the question of the hon. Member for Katombola is whether all retired civil servants who have not been paid their benefits are on the Government payroll.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, thank you. I have clearly understood the question.

 

 Madam, the requirement for retirees who have not been paid terminal benefits to remain on the payroll was introduced by the new Constitution. So, the 494 I mentioned are the ones to whom the new Constitution applies. Whether there are people who retired in the past and are still on the payroll, I cannot confirm, but I do not believe so.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Finance wants to encourage fiscal discipline in the ministries. From what the hon. Minister has said, part of the problem stems from civil servants not going on leave. Who is in charge of making sure that they go on leave and that the correct days are approved? Further, why is that not being done?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, first of all, I did not say everybody does not go on leave, but that some civil servants do not go on leave. As regards making sure that happens, it is really up to the controlling officer in each ministry through their human resource department.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam, the hon. Minister has indicated that it is the competing needs and fiscal challenges that have caused this problem for retired civil servants. I am sure you recall that, not so long ago, I moved a Motion to urge the Patriotic Front (PF) Government to expedite the payment of dues to retirees. I was basically asking the Executive to prioritise this matter.

 

Madam Speaker, I just want to make a follow-up on the question asked by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, which was in two parts.

 

Madam, the hon. Minister did not give a proper justification for the purchase of the fire trucks. She created the impression that the fire trucks were purchased as a result of outbreaks of fire in the country. However, they were bought long before the fires. It will be helpful for her to answer the question asked by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, soon to be Leader of Government Business in the House. He asked me to squeeze that in.

 

Madam Speaker, there are many leakages in our financial system. We use money on unbudgeted expenses, as can be seen from the Auditor-General’s Report. Does the hon. Minister not think that it is prudent for her to say that the Government will improve in paying retirees? Many have died and got their due posthumously. Can the Government agree to put more focus on these unfortunate people who have served the country, but now live in squalor and abject poverty. Some of them camp at the hon. Minister’s office to demand their money.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, first of all, let me confirm that only those who retired after the new Constitution was enacted have remained on the payroll.

 

Madam Speaker, secondly, are we talking about fire trucks or retirees here?

 

Hon. Government Members: Eh!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: I wonder why we keep going back to the fire trucks when we are talking about retirees.

 

Madam, I am happy that the hon. Members on the left are concerned about retirees. This Government is concerned about the plight of retirees too. For example, in 2016, we budgeted K805 million to pay retirees and we released K398 million, which was 49 per cent of the budgeted amount. In 2017, we budgeted K1.65 billion and paid K1.47 billion, which was 89 per cent of the budgeted amount. In 2018, we have budgeted K1.06 billion million and we will release 100 per cent of it. We will pay the retirees because, like our colleagues, we want them to be paid. That is why we are putting more money aside every year to make to pay them.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that keeping retired people on the payroll is a heavy burden on the Government? Also, there is a rumour that the Government wants to change the law that allows retirees who have not been paid their money to remain on the payroll. Does the Government have a deliberate measure for curbing the cost of keeping retirees on the payroll? Can the Government promise that all retirees will be paid their dues on a particular day in 2019, 2020 or 2030, for example?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, I have just shared the amounts that were allocated to paying retirees in 2016 and 2017. In 2018, we have budgeted K1.06 billion and we will pay 100 per cent of the amount. Just to remind the House, 2018 will end in December.  So I cannot say that the retirees will be paid in a particular month, but I can promise that K1.06 billion will be released for them in 2018.

 

Madam Speaker, as for the rumour that the Government will change the law, all I can say is that the law has not changed. The hon. Minister of Justice has just said that only this House can pass laws. We cannot debate and pass a law in Parliament and, then, implement something different.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Speaker, maybe, in urban areas, it is very easy for civil servants to go on leave. However, in rural areas, it is not. For instance, in Katuba, there is only one nurse working at a certain clinic. Is the hon. Minister sure that going on leave, instead of commuting the leave days, would be possible for such a nurse? Further, the hon. Minister has said that 100 per cent of the amount budgeted for retirees this year will be paid. However, I think people want to know how long the Government will take to clear all the retirees, not how much of the budgeted amount for this year will be disbursed.

 

Mr Muchima: Correct!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, let me confirm that K167 million has been released to the PSPF. We are releasing what has been budgeted for on a monthly basis.

 

Madam, as for one nurse working at a clinic in Katuba, I can comprehend that situation. One reason some workers in some ministries do not go on leave is that there is not enough manpower at some centres. Therefore, I urge the hon. Member to dialogue with the hon. Minister of Health to ensure that there is backup manpower for the nurse at that clinic.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, what is your projection on the payment of all retirees? When do you think you can clear all retirees?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, retirement is continuous. Every month, some people retire. That is why ministerial budgets are consolidated by the Ministry of Finance. I said that those who retired in January and February, 2018, have been paid 100 per cent. Going forward, people will be paid at the point of retirement.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kakubo (Kapiri Mposhi): Madam Speaker, I have been engaging the ministry over the payment of retirees’ benefits. I had meetings with Hon. Mutati and, last week, I had a word with the current hon. Minister of Finance over the same issue.

 

Madam Speaker, of the funds the Government has allocated to the payment of retirees in 2018, how much has been apportioned to retirees from quasi-Government corporate bodies like the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA)?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, I urge the hon. Member to file in a question to which I will provide an answer.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam Speaker, the impression I have is that those who retired last year and the previous year are on the payroll while those who retired slightly earlier do not get anything. Could the hon. Minister tell the people of Zambia, in particular those in Mufumbwe Constituency and those who are still spending nights at the Inter-City Bus Terminus, whether the Government will prioritise clearing those who retired earlier.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, those who retired before the new Constitution was enacted will not be retained on the payroll. Only those who retired later will be paid, as per the Constitution that we passed in this House.

 

Madam Speaker, we do owe past retirees arrears. That is why I am informing the House on how the Government is dismantling those arrears. I assure the people of Mufumbwe Constituency that the Government is taking a holistic approach to dismantling pension arrears on a regular basis. That is why I shared the numbers with you.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Monze Central asked the hon. Minister why the Government is taking long to pay Public Service workers their terminal benefits. From the statistics that the hon. Minister has shared with us, in terms of percentages, would she say that the Government is, indeed, taking long to dismantle the arrears or has it performed well?

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, I think that I have shared with the House our debt clearing strategy, which targets all manner of debt, including arrears owed to pensioners. If not, then, I will be happy to do so. The strategies include the Social Protection Bill, which gives more sustainability by allowing new members. So, I confirm that the Government is attuned to the fact that there are arrears. In that regard, it has put in place a strategy for dismantling the debt. I do not think I can say any more clearly than that.

 

Madam Speaker, State-owned enterprises are not part of the amount allocated in the Budget because they are dealt with separately, as some of them are in receivership and other stages.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, Kabwe has thousands of people who retired from parastatals like Zambia Railways limited (ZRL), National Milling Corporation (NMC), Mulungushi Textiles, Kabwe Industrial Fabrics Company (KIFCO), National Drug Company (NDC) and many others I cannot mention. I have not heard the ministry’s commitment to such retirees. I am aware that many people are now living in misery and they have no hope of ever being paid their money, as successive Governments have ignored them. What strategy does the ministry have for the retirees of Kabwe who have been waiting to hear when the Government will settle their terminal benefits?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question asked by hon. Member.

 

Madam, the Government is trying really hard to resolve the problem through various means. Like I said, some of the companies are under receivership while others have gone to court. There are many State-owned enterprises, some of which still exist while others have closed, with which we have to get to grips. I suggest that Hon. Ngulube files in a question. That way, I will come back with an answer specifically on benefits for former employees of each State-owned enterprise.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke Central): Madam Speaker, I think that, over the past three years, there have been budgets in billions of kwacha meant to pay retirees. However, as the hon. Member for Katuba said, what is not coming out clearly is how big this problem is. How many former Public Service workers are waiting to be paid? Further, how much will the exercise cost the Government? That is not coming out clearly.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, the number of retirees who are owed their benefits is something on which I need to consult and, then, come back to the House with more information and a fuller picture.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, read my lips. Today is 27^th March, while Thursday will be 29^th March, 2018, and we will have a long weekend due to the Easter holidays, yet the serving Public Service workers have not been paid. What hope is the Government giving to those who are retired if current employees have not been paid yet?

 

Laughter

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam, the hon. Member for Mitete, Mr. Mutelo, alikoma amatwi.

 

Hon. Government Member: Bwekeshapo mwaice.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No, she cannot say that.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

 

What is the meaning of that?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, it means he is not listening to me?

 

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

 

The hon. Minister wants to explain.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, thank you for your protection.

 

Madam, we are saying ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, hon. Minister, you need to explain what you meant.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Ukukoma matwi? I mean, “Is he deaf?” I believe that he is not, though.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

 

Resume your seat.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe resumed her seat.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we have always insisted that there must be civil language and mutual respect in the Chamber because each of you is here legitimately ...

 

Mr Mwiinga: Except that one indicated!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... and has a role to perform. Please, refrain from using such language and withdraw your statement.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word “deaf” and replace it with, “Is he hearing me?”

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: If he is, let me repeat that the PF Government is committed to reducing the strife among our retirees about which the hon. Member is talking. That is why we pay salaries and other emoluments, such as leave pay and other allowances. Although we may, sometimes, pay late, we always pay. We endeavour to pay what is due when it is due. When we do not, it is because of the competing expenditure demands on the Government. That is why, in 2018, we are trying hard to pay those who are due to be paid. That is why we have paid 100 per cent for January and February, 2018, and we hope to continue to expand our revenue base so that we can pay expenses when they fall due. That is why when Hon. Ngulube asked a question, I asked to come back later so that I can answer it properly because I know that the retirees from some of the State-owned enterprises that have collapsed, such as Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL), have been paid 100 per cent while others have not.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr A. Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I join the many who are concerned about the plight of retirees. The challenge of fiscal space has been with us for a while. The issue of retirees has actually been driven by political factors. Would the hon. Minister of Finance consider setting up a sinking fund or something else on which the ministry could rely to ensure that funds are consistently being released for paying retirees? Three years ago, we had challenges of low copper prices, which reduced our revenues, as companies did not pay any taxes. As a result, a US$1 billion hole was created in our Budget. Now, we still have these needs.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, we would certainly consider that. The hon. Member is right to state that the background to this problem goes back to 2015/2016 when commodity prices fell. What we are doing now is striving to get to a stage where we have cost-reflective tariffs. We have attained cost-reflectivity on fuel and electrify, although we are not yet fully migrated. We have also attained that in the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), in which we have saved K1 billion by implementing the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) System. We have been doing some of those things to help us save money.

 

Madam, copper prices have improved and we hope to get more revenue. We are also implementing programmes like land titling, which we believe will increase revenues in the non-tax area, as well as enforcing the use of cash registers to raise compliance among traders. We are doing all these things in order to make our business community and the country at large compliant so that we can raise the taxes needed for us to have certainty about being able to pay the retirees.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance has raised an issue with us on why we persistently raise the issue of the fire tenders.

 

Madam Speaker, we are all aware, especially your hon. Members on the left, that as a result of the questionable purchase of fire tenders, ...

 

Mr Sing’ombe: And ambulances!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: ... the Government lost US$31.5 million. That is the amount of money that was misappropriated. I am saying so considering that her Government has insured the vehicles at US$250,000, entailing that the price of each fire tender was actually US$250,000. If that money was available, the Government would have been able to meet its obligations to the civil servants. That is the issue that concerns us.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Minister: The hon. Minister has explained that there was a need to purchase the fire tenders. Perhaps, we can ask her to repeat her earlier statement.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Leader of Opposition hearing me?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Interruptions

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam, the Government has many needs. It needs to pay retirees as well as buy fire tenders. It will cost us more than K100 million to rebuild the markets that were burnt down. That is another need.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Who burnt them down?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: I do not know who burnt them down, but they were burnt down.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, the fire tenders are being used for politicking ...

 

Madam First Deputy Minister: Order, hon. Minister!

 

Give me some time to deal with the hon. Leader of Opposition.

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, resume your seat.

 

Mr Mwiimbu resumed his seat.

 

Madam First Deputy Minister: It does not help to ask a question and rise on a point of order before you get a complete answer. You need to give the hon. Minister an opportunity to respond to your question.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, it seems to me as though the fire tenders are being used for politics every day. It looks as if United Party for National Development (UPND) members have no song to sing apart from fire tenders.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: I advise them to find another song. The fire tenders were procured in accordance with Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) procedures.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: The fire tenders are a need, ...

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: ... as are the retirees’ benefits. So, this Government will continue to work around the competing needs. We brought in the fire tenders because we needed to protect the markets that we are building across the country, which will cost K100 million.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Speaker, …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, a very clear question was posed to the hon. Minister of Finance and the issue she raised on why we persistently raise the issue of fire tenders was cited as the background to the question. We are not asking whether tender procedures were followed or not.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: The issue we have been raising is a fact our colleague have acknowledged.

 

Mr Kampyongo: What is the point of order?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I will raise the point of order.

 

Madam, the issue we are raising is that of insuring the fire tenders at US$250,000 when they were allegedly purchased at US$1 million each. Being a finance person, she knows that you insure a vehicle at the value at which you bought it.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Is she in order, Madam Speaker, to trivialise the misappropriation of US$31.5 million and say it was a necessity?

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can the hon. Member for Nalikwanda continue. As the hon. Minister answers his question, she will re-state the position concerning the fire tenders. The cost and …

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe stood up to answer.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Not now, hon. Minister. You will answer after the hon. Member for Nalikwanda’s question.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister’s response to the question clearly indicates that the payment of the retirees is vexing her ministry. It is a concern to all of us that some retirees are not on the payroll while others are. How is the hon. Minister balancing the two in terms of prioritisation? I am sure the retirees out there would like to know.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Finance, please, take into account the issue raised in the point of order by the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, let me answer the hon. Member for Nalikwanda first.

 

Madam, to the ministry, a retiree is a retiree. So, when we allocate resources, we try to support both. Ideally, we should not have any arrears at all.

 

Madam Speaker, getting back to the fire tenders, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: … we put out a tender and got many bids. In fact, the bid for US$42 million was not the highest, as we had one for US$49 million. When the ZPPA looks at bids, there are criteria adhered to, of which price is only one. So, we bought the fire tenders and they are here.

 

Madam, like I said, I am beginning to believe that this topic is being used for politics. I do not know whether it is because the Opposition wants to remain relevant …

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: …by harping on about it. We want to keep the markets we have built safe and safeguard the traders in those markets. That is why we have placed this issue of markets in a very high office, the Vice-President’s Office. We want to ensure that should there be a fire, God forbid, on the infrastructure in markets and anywhere else, for that matter, we will have the fire tenders to put it off. The issue of price and insurance are behind us.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Interruptions

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: We want to move on with the development of the country. If our colleagues want to keep singing that song, they will be left behind. However, we do not want to leave anyone behind. You know what my President said when he came here. This Government wants to develop the country without leaving anyone behind. So, they should stop singing the same song. It is becoming rather boring.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 18

 

249. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection:

(a)        why the Government issued the Water Resources Management (Charges and Fees) Regulations, 2018, Statutory Instrument No. 18;

(b)        whether the Government was aware that many people, especially in rural areas, could not afford the prescribed fees and would be deprived of access to safe and clean water; and

(c)        if so, what measures had been taken to ensure that people had access to water.

 

The Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection (Dr Wanchinga): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kalabo Central for asking this question. It is a subject on which I intended to issue a ministerial statement because of its importance and the debate it has generated nationwide. In this regard, I ask you to allow me to give a very important preface to the answer I will give.

 

Madam Speaker, the Water Resources Management Act No. 21 was passed in 2011, and parts of it have already been operationalised. The regulations that were recently published are three, namely Statutory Instruments (SIs) Nos. 18, 19 and 20 of 2018. 

 

Madam, SI No. 18 is on charges and fees, and is anchored on Section 179 of the Act while SI No. 19 deals with the licensing of drillers and constructors, and is anchored on Sections 88 and 99, and SI No. 20 is on ground water and boreholes, and is anchored on Section 179 of the Act.

 

Madam Speaker, let me hasten to add that Sections 7, 150 and 153 of the Act, which concern charges and fees; Section 179, which concerns ground water and boreholes; and Sections 88 and 89, which concern licensing of drillers and constructors, are meant to do what we see in the national parks. There are about thirty-five game management areas (GMAs) and nineteen national parks in this country for which we have regulations. Nobody can just go there and start shooting animals. This country also has the Forestry Act and the Fisheries Act, and we have just lifted the fishing ban. We also regulate mining. So, the idea of regulating underground water is meant to promote the sustainable use of this very important resource. Unfortunately, it has been misunderstood. So, I am happy that this question has been asked because I can now clarify a number of issues.

 

Madam, the ministry has issued three Sis, namely 18, 19 and 20 of 2018, to regulate the use of ground water in the country. I wish to take this opportunity to remind the House that the regulation of groundwater was effectively introduced by the enactment of the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA) Act No. 21 of 2018. Furthermore, SI No. 18 provides for drilling of domestic boreholes, which will attract a one-off registration fee of K250. Notification for drilling of a commercial borehole will attract a one-off payment of K500 besides the other permits that may be required. This is one aspect on which there has been a lot of misinformation. What the Government intends to do is register the boreholes. In order to meet the overhead costs, WARMA …

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my right!

 

Dr Wanchinga: … has to charge a minimal operational fee. Paying K250 for a borehole is very reasonable, considering the cost of drilling it.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, some people have been saying that the amount to be paid for drilling a borehole is K833. Those are units. In order to get the exact amount of money to be paid, you have to multiply 0.3 by the number of units indicated in the SI, which gives K249.99, rounded off as K250. So, the K833 which has been floated in the newspapers is not correct.

 

Madam Speaker, my ministry issued SI No. 18 after wide consultations with various stakeholders, such as farmers, commercial utilities and the mines. The purpose of the SI is to:

 

1. ensure that people do not continue to be exploited by individuals who drill sub-standard boreholes;

 

1. address complaints relating to sub-standard boreholes by providing minimum specifications for boreholes;

 

1. ensure that people have access to clean water by carrying out investigations before authorising the drilling of a borehole;

 

1. ensure that people are protected from deprivation of water or potential future pollution of ground water through indiscriminate drilling of domestic and commercial boreholes;

 

1. defray administrative costs related to the management of water resources and legislation; and

 

1. ensure that WARMA undertakes field assessments for the benefit of customers.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government is aware that many people, especially in rural areas, cannot afford to pay the charges and that they will be deprived of access to clean and safe water. It is for this reason that the existing community boreholes that were drilled by the Government, non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and co-operating partners will not attract the registration fee of K250. Instead, the ministry will register them and carry out assessments on them at its expense. Furthermore, the registration fee will not apply to wells.

 

Madam Speaker, the regulations provide for individuals who can afford to drill private boreholes for domestic use of not more than 10,000 m³ to pay a one-off fee of K250.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government will continue investing in ground water management, including in rural areas, through the exploration and mapping of ground water resources throughout the country. This is to ensure that the wellfields are identified for development, and to increase access to safe and clean water. Therefore, the conservation of ground water aquifers becomes a very critical issue in ensuring the sustainability of water resources for our country.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to say the hon. Minister categorised the people who will pay for drilling boreholes and those who will be exempted. However, he is aware that water is important for sustaining human beings, vegetation and wildlife. In fact, he knows that water is as old as the earth.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Could you now ask the question.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the Government now wants to charge a class of people who use water to promote the life of both human beings and animals. Is he aware that the charge for registration of boreholes will inhibit the development of the agricultural sector and disadvantage farmers, who need water for the animals on which we depend?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I am aware of the importance of water, especially since I am a biologist. The WARMA regulations are meant to promote human health and agriculture. The registration charge will enable WARMA to regulate the people drilling boreholes, and help those who have boreholes at their houses. Perhaps, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central is not aware that a borehole at his house or farm requires a base, a sieve, a gravel pack and a sanitary seal to prevent pollution and produce clean water. Therefore, through the registration charge, WARMA will be able to assist borehole owners to have good water supply from properly-drilled and installed boreholes.

 

Madam Speaker, let me assure my colleague, the hon. Member for Kalabo Central, that the K250 that will be levied cannot prohibit the development of agriculture in his constituency or anywhere else, especially looking at the overall cost of a borehole. It is very expensive to drill a good borehole. It sometimes costs between K15,000 and K30,000, but people will only be required to pay K250. So, I do not see how the K250 that will be levied on somebody who is prepared to pay K30,000 to drill a borehole at his farm will inhibit the agricultural productivity of that farm.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Speaker, it looks like the current Government is punishing Zambians through a number of taxes.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Question!

 

Mr Michelo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: There is the health insurance …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

 Just ask the question. I have a long list.

 

Mr Kamboni: … tax, rent tax and road tolls. Has the Government bothered to assess the impact on Zambians of these taxes and the tax on water, and their reaction to it?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I need to correct my colleague. The registration fee is not a tax. Were it a tax, we would have included everyone. How can the Government tax itself if it is prepared to exempt the boreholes drilled in rural areas by NGOs and other co-operating partners? So, this is a service fee for WARMA for the authority to carry out this function efficiently and ensure that our people are protected from using contaminated water. This is a very important development because many people may not know the kind of water they drink from their boreholes. However, WARMA will test the water for the benefit of home-owners and advise them in case the water is not good for their families. We need this service. I am aware that we are required to make a number of contributions in terms of road tolls and the Health Insurance Tax, but this is certainly also good for us. We are trying to fill a vacuum.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam, what is the hon. Minister doing to educate Zambians, considering that a number of them drill boreholes and this one-off payment of less than K250 will enable them to know whether they have sunk a borehole at the correct depth and allay the fears of contamination, a thing that has not been happening, especially in some instances where these drilling companies have given people dry boreholes? Many people are misleading the masses that this is a tax, yet it is a measure meant to protect Zambians?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, my colleague could not have put it any better. This move is, indeed, protection we all need. Many of us have been victims of drillers of boreholes who drill boreholes without putting casings or, maybe, just put two or three casings and, because of that, the boreholes collapse. So, the education about which the he is talking has already started.

 

Madam, it is my hope that when Parliament adjourns, my good colleagues will go and explain to the people who have been misled, through various mischievous statements, in some cases, that the Government means well in coming  up with these SIs, which are meant to protect them.

 

Madam, the education started from here. As you may note, we are running newspaper campaigns, and those of you who have read today’s Daily Mail may have seen that there is information there about these SIs. Similarly, the other day, the Permanent Secretary (PS) in my ministry was talking about the subject, and I was in Kabwe talking about the same topic. We have decided to mount a vigorous campaign to educate our people on the benefits to be derived from having WARMA, which will oversee the development of boreholes in the country.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has included farmers among the stakeholders. To what kind of farmers was he referring? Are they commercial farmers or small-scale farmers? Further, who represented those who may have boreholes in their yards, but are not farmers?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I am not quite sure that I understood my colleague well, especially the last part of his question. Maybe, he can be kind enough to repeat the question.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can the hon. Member of Parliament for Mapatizya repeat his question.

 

Mr Miyanda: Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister has indicated that the major stakeholders in his consultation process were farmers. My question is: What category of farmers were consulted, since there are small-scale and commercial farmers? Further, what about those who are not farmers, but have boreholes in their yards? Who represented them?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, the consultations involved both commercial and small-scale farmers, and other people who use borehole water.

 

Madam, there are various categories of people who use water. Some use it as an extractive resource. This includes using it for hydro power, agriculture, mining, industrial development and municipal use. There is also non-extractive water usage, where there is no loss of a lot of water, such as aquaculture, recreation and irrigation. These are the various stakeholder groups that were consulted. Certainly, the commercial and small-scale farmers were consulted through their representatives.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that this statutory instrument (SI) does not concern those who have dug wells.  If one of the functions of the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA) is to assist people in determining the quality of their water, then, the people who dig wells are actually at a higher risk of drinking unclean water than those who drill boreholes. Why did he decide to leave out those who dig wells in terms of having clean and safe water?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, that is an interesting question from my colleague.

 

Madam, the Government does not encourage the use of wells, particularly shallow ones. This comes from the lesson we have learnt from the recent cholera outbreak. By the way, cholera is not the only water-borne disease, as there are also other diseases like typhoid, dysentery and bilharzia. So, we cannot adopt an ostrich mentality and bury our heads in the sand because we know that the Lusaka Water and Sewerage (LWSC), Eastern Water and Sewerage Company (EWSC), Southern Water and Sewerage Company (SWASCO), and Mulonga Water and Sewerage Company (MWSC) do not cover every corner of this country. Further, not every villager has access to a stream where they can get water. So, we understand that some people will dig wells. Even so, our responsibility is to test those wells and provide information on how to sanitise the water from those wells. This is another programme and, certainly, the ministry is concerned about it.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’onga:  Madam Speaker, water is life, and like everybody else has said, all of us would like to have access to good and quality drinking water. However we know that the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA) is a regulatory institution and there are many complaints concerning water supply by many institutions that fall under the authority. How efficient will WARMA be, since it is adding another programme of regulating underground water resources to its functions when, I feel, it is already overburdened?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, indeed, WARMA has the responsibility of regulating the use of surface and ground water. We also expect it to play a very important role in the maintenance and sustainable management of the aquifers because that is where the resource comes from.

 

Madam, we are aware that the institution is not well-established and has indicated areas in which it needs to be strengthened for it to discharge this function effectively. So, we know that with the increase in its responsibilities, we will need to enhance its capacity for it to cope. That is an administrative matter and it will be taken care of as the institution grows and establishes itself.

 

I thank Madam Speaker. 

 

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Speaker, there is an outcry from the general public about the water fees being too high. Since this Patriotic Front (PF) claims to be a listening Government, is the ministry considering reducing the charges so that they can be affordable to our people?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I do not know whether my colleague knows the story of Robin Hood, a man who used to rob the rich and give to the poor. 

 

Laughter

 

Dr Wanchinga: If the hon. Member listened carefully, I said that the average people in the rural areas, who are very poor, do not have the money to sink boreholes. They, instead, rely on the Government, NGOs and co-operating partners to sink boreholes in their communities. Therefore, the Government will meet the cost of drilling the boreholes to benefit communities that are incapable of drilling boreholes by themselves.

 

Madam, a person who is prepared to drill a borehole in his or her yard is prepared to pay K20,000 to K40,000. Surprisingly, this is the person for whom the hon. Member is crying to be exempted from paying the K250. Certainly, such a person is not concerned about the poor, but himself and other people in his category. The truth is that the poor people in the rural areas rely on subventions to access water services.

 

I thank you, Madam, Speaker.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, the majority of Zambians are against the groundwater charge because the Patriotic Front (PF) does not own the water.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Ask your question.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Michelo: Madam, will the Government impose the underground water charge on Zambians even if they are against it?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is trying to lead a riot of some kind. The Government has just lifted the fishing ban, which is imposed for the purpose of allowing the fish to breed for its sustainable management. Water resources belong to Zambians just like underground water. So, the water does not belong to any political group or any other group.

 

Madam, I do not think that there is an outcry against these charges. If anything, it is a misinformation campaign that is being propagated by our colleagues, who actually have boreholes in of their yards. It is not the ordinary people who are propagating this information because that category of people relies on community boreholes or wells. So, what outcry is the hon. Member for Bweengwa he talking about? Maybe, he is talking about his outcry. Let us assist the Government because the regulation of the use of underground water is for the good of all of us, as it is for the sustainable development of the water resource. The way we have supported the regulation of hunting in game reserves and GMAs is the same way we have supported the protection of forestry reserves. We should, therefore, equally support this regulation.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Madam, the hon. Minister has said that wells drilled by the Government or donors will not attract any fees. Will the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA) also inspect some wells dug a long time ago, which may have some contents of iron? Will it take advantage of this exercise to determine the wells that have a high iron content?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, WARMA will certainly provide a good service to our communities because that is a sensible thing to do.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Speaker, what other benefits will farmers or individuals who pay K250 to register their boreholes realise in the event that their boreholes got contaminated thereafter?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, actually, the benefits will start even before the borehole is drilled because WARMA will first assess the area to find out whether it is suitable and advise the individual whether or not to drill the borehole. WARMA will also advise on the siting of the borehole in relation to any other structure, such as a rubbish bit, pit latrine or septic tank. These benefits will come free of charge. In addition, after the borehole has been drilled, the water will be tested for the farmer. From time to time, WARMA will also visit the various places to test the water because nature is dynamic.

 

Madam, these are the benefits to be derived before and after a borehole has been drilled.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for his clear responses. However, I have a problem in the sense that I will not be surprised to see some people go out and call this exercise a tax because even after the hon. Minister has explained very well that this is not a tax, United Party for National Development (UPND) hon. Members have continued to call it a tax.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: What will the hon. Minister to do to ensure that hon. UPND Members understand that this is not a tax?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!      

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I am sorry to say that our colleagues are always looking for an opportunity to get political mileage from anything.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Therefore, they will deliberately misunderstand a very clear situation because it serves their interests better. They will go around telling people what is not correct because they think it serves their interests, but what we are talking about here is certainly in the national interest because, if we become irresponsible about the use of underground water, we will all be losers, whether we are members of the United Party for National Development (UPND), Patriotic Front (PF) or any other party. Therefore, it is very important that we explain to the people that people who will drill boreholes on their premises will only pay a one-off fee or token of K250. As I have said, this amount is minimal relative to the overall cost of drilling a borehole. Certainly, talking about a tax that will be collected only once in the life of a borehole is an exaggeration and a desperate effort to gain political mileage from almost anything.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Chisangano (Gwembe): Madam Speaker, information is power, but the people in rural areas have received incorrect information about this statutory instrument (SI), especially regarding the amount to pay and who is supposed to pay. What channels of communication does the Government intend to use to deliver the correct information, especially since there are no newspapers or good radio and television signals in rural areas? Moreover, somebody here said that he does not trust the United Party for National Development (UPND) to support this programme.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I really appeal to my colleagues on your left that we have a collective responsibility on matters of this nature. Hon. Members of Parliament are the starting point in this programme. When Parliament rises, we shall go to our constituencies. Therefore, we have to explain this programme to our people. When they ask about a new tax about which they have heard, we need to tell them that it is not a tax, but a one-off payment to help meet the operational costs of WARMA. 

 

Madam Speaker, I urge my good friends and colleagues to tell the people that the Government and WARMA mean well. We will continue to use the airwaves to communicate with the masses. Of course, I am aware that there are areas where there are no television and radio signals and newspapers, but hon. Members of Parliament, councillors and district officers of all kinds will certainly be engaged to make our people understand that this is a measure like any other to regulate a resource that is very important.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Madam, how will the Government ensure that the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA) does its job? We have seen a few instances whereby funds have been remitted, yet the work has not been done by WARMA, especially in places like Keembe Constituency?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I will answer on the assumption that I understood the question.

 

Madam, I think, the starting point for us is just getting to agree that we need WARMA to regulate the use of underground water. The details of how the authority will use water and how it will be held accountable are a topic for another day. Suffice it for me to say that we have structures to which the authority will subscribe in terms of financial management regulations. Certainly, the authority will also be expected to report on its functions and to be audited, just like any other institution funded by the public.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms E. Phiri (Kanyama): Madam Speaker, how will those who have already sunk boreholes benefit from the services of the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA)? Further, how will the Government take stock of the already-drilled boreholes around the country?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, the benefits to be derived in respect of boreholes that are already in place are the same as those that will be derived regarding those that are yet to be drilled. The authority will test the quality of water and advise whether boreholes are safe. The authority will also provide technical assistance in terms of how a borehole is supposed to be sited in relation to other structures, such as sewerage systems. For farms, the authority will look at things like whether a borehole is too far from where the animals are kept and where they are buried when they die.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, we have issues with this particular tax. However, will there not be a backlog of people who will be waiting to have their boreholes drilled. I am trying to borrow this from what we experience with the councils, whereby residents pay service charges, but the services are never delivered. In other words, given the high demand of people drilling boreholes, how will the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA) match up with that demand?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister has actually talked about building the capacity of the authority. So, he will respond to that very briefly.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, you have helped me to answer that question.

 

Madam, the capacity of WARMA is very important. In this regard, SI No. 19 has given certain responsibilities to drillers and constructors to assist the owners of the boreholes to meet their obligations to WARMA. Therefore, the concerns that the hon. Member is raising will also be addressed. It will be a two fronted approach on that issue.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA) is currently operating from Lusaka, but the people who mostly need the boreholes are in the rural areas. From the time we started drilling boreholes in this country, there has been no supervision. Therefore, this is a new measure. How will WARMA work with the councils in rural areas so that people can benefit from having their boreholes drilled correctly?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I think that question falls within the realm of decentralisation. Certainly, one of the things WARMA will have to look at is how it will engage and build capacity in district councils to effectively deliver its services. Let me also mention that WARMA offices will be established in regional and sub-regional centres.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION OF ZAMBIA FINANCIAL SITUATION

 

250. Mr Kakubo asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development:

 

1. Whether the Government was aware that the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) had lost a number of court cases and was liable to pay millions of kwacha in judgment debts;

 

1. why the association had not paid its employees for the past two months;

 

1. when the employees would be paid; and

 

1. whether there were measures being taken to assist the association financially.

 

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development (Mr Mawere): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware that the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) has lost a number of court cases that relate to the hosting of the Under-20 Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) and, in some instances, the association has been sued in its capacity. The association has since committed itself to clearing the outstanding debts when funds are available. It has also appealed some cases and they are still in the courts of law.

 

Madam Speaker, the employees at FAZ have not been paid their February, 2018, salaries. It is not correct that they have not been paid for two months. The delay in paying the February salaries was due to delayed finalisation of the contract between FAZ and one of its main sponsors, Mobile Telephone Networks (MTN). The FAZ employees will definitely receive their February and March salaries in March, 2018, as the association is committed to paying its employees on the due date.

 

Madam Speaker, FAZ generates revenue for meeting its obligations from gate takings and subscriptions. In addition, it is funded by the International Federation of Association Football (FIFA), Confederation of African Football (CAF) and other sponsors of football development in the country. The Government’s obligation is only to provide financial support to FAZ and other sports associations for participation of their senior national teams in regional, continental and international tournaments.

 

I thank, you, Madam.

 

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I asked this question because football has two sides. The first part is playing the game while the second part is administering it. My concern is on administration. The lawsuits to which I referred have left the association owing more money than the grants it receives. Just last month, it lost two lawsuits that cost it in excess of K4 million. Last week, on Wednesday or Tuesday, it was visited by bailiffs after it was sued by a travel agent in Kitwe for not settling its travel arrears. The cases FAZ has are many and the money it owes is very worrying because the situation might affect the performance of our players. In view of that, is the Government not worried that the funds FAZ owes can lead to the association’s deregistration?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Speaker, the figure that the hon. Member has mentioned, K4 million plus, does not reflect the true debt of FAZ. Further, there is a difference between the performance of players and football administration.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Speaker, this Government of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, meets the cost of the national team’s participations in regional, continental and international games. Even the coach of the national team is paid using taxpayers’ money, not revenues from FAZ. In fact, FAZ has indicated to the Government that it is 100 per cent committed to settling some of its debt. It is also disputing some of its debts to some service providers and has asked the courts to stay some judgments.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, when an organisation is riddled with problems, you will see a manifestation of things that may not seem related. In the case of the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ), Mr Paspanonga Liwewe resigned for an unexplained reason. Could that be related to the financial problems the association is facing? Now, the association is appealing and challenging court judgments the same way the Patriotic Front (PF) appeals and challenges court judgments. Is it now fashionable to hedge court judgments?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, you have already asked your question.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Speaker, for the interest of everyone in this august House, let me give a detailed position in terms of the FAZ debts.

 

Madam, the court entered a default judgment of about K2 million against the former Secretary-General of FAZ, but the association has since applied for a stay of execution. The case is, therefore, still in the courts of law.

 

Madam Speaker, FAZ also has another case brought by Flyways Travel and Logistics Agency. That was another judgment in default over a claim of K293,000 and relates to the Under 20 National Football Team. The debt resulted from the failure by FAZ to follow tender procedures when the country hosted the Under-20 AFCON Tournament. The tournament’s organising committee was supposed to consult the Government before contracting certain services, but did not. So, the Government could not pay for those services. As a result, the costs were pushed back to FAZ, which has to settle all of them.

 

Madam Speaker, the other judgment relates to Fallsway Apartments. This debt was accrued over the accommodation of the former Zambia National Soccer Team coach Herve Renard. Again, FAZ went over the figures allowed by the Government. So, the Government could only pay what was stipulated in the agreement and that resulted in FAZ accumulating a debt of K293,000. If you look at these debts critically, you will agree with me that they could have been avoided. As a Government, we are concerned about this. So, we have asked the association to avoid such debts because they affect its operations.

 

Madam, when it comes to meeting its daily and monthly obligations, such as paying workers’ salaries, the association has been consistent, except in February, 2018, which is normal in most companies. Most of us who own companies do not worry much about such a scenario because even workers tend to understand when management defaults for a month.

Madam, FAZ is committed to its work. It has just signed a contract with MTN. So, by the end of this month, it will pay all its workers everything owed them.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, why were default judgments entered against the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ)? Is it a result of negligence on the association’s part?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Speaker, normally, default judgments are entered when the defendants fail to show up or defend themselves in court. In these judgments, the explanation we have received from FAZ is that it was not aware of some of them because it did not receive the court summons and that if they were sent, then, they were sent to the wrong people. The outgoing Secretary-General, whom you have mentioned as Mr Ponga Liwewe, indicated to the Government that he did not see the summons. That is why FAZ is challenging the judgments .

 

Madam Speaker, it is not true that Mr Ponga Liwewe’s departure from FAZ has anything to do with these challenges. As a Government, we know that Mr Liwewe’s decision to leave FAZ is very personal. So, I do not want to divulge the reasons. It is a matter of his wanting to further or widen his ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

 

 You have correctly said that you cannot divulge the reasons for Mr Ponga Liwewe’s leaving the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ). Please do not do that.

 

Mr Fungulwe (Lufwanyama): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the problems being faced by the association have nothing to do with the performance of the Zambia National Football Team. What does he think contributed to the team’s poor performance in a recent game, which it lost?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That is a different question.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Speaker, when was the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) last audited? Further, who were the auditors?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister may give an indication on the audit because that is financial management.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, I can come back to this House with the name of the auditors. As we are all aware, FAZ is autonomous. So, the Government has very little influence in terms of who audits it. Therefore, I need to find out from the association who its auditors are.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, soccer is a uniting factor. Does the hon. Minister’s Government have any intention of bailing the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) out financially, bearing in mind that it has huge debts that it may not afford to settle? I ask this question because the hon. Minister stated that the Government is 100 per cent in charge of FAZ’s financial responsibilities.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Speaker, FAZ is 100 per cent committed to settling all the debts it owes various companies. As a Government, we bail it out on a regular basis. For example, we have an obligation to take up all costs relating to the promotion and participation of the national team in various tournaments.. This means that we are subsidising the operations of FAZ in a big way, resulting in other sports disciplines crying foul. Therefore, we are already doing justice to FAZ.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, managerial abilities or administrative skills are a necessary ingredient for success. All world-class teams are successful because of having good administrators, among many other factors. What did the hon. Minister mean by his statement that there is no correlation between the performance of a team and administrative abilities and skills?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Speaker, I was referring to the direct effect when talking about whether the performance of the team is being affected by the administrative challenges that FAZ is facing. Of course, indirectly, we may have that challenge. However, the Government meets all the costs involved in the running of the football teams, starting from the technical bench to the players, among other expenses. So, I feel there is very little that would demotivate the team.

 

Madam Speaker, incentives like salaries are paid to players and the technical bench on time. So, it does not make sense for them to start concentrating on matters that have very little do with the on-the-pitch performance of the team. That is why I said there is very little correlation between the performance of the team and the administrative challenges FAZ is facing.

 

Dr Kalila: Question!

 

Mr Mawere: The Government takes good care of the team.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that ticket sales are one of the income lines for FAZ. You may recall that, last year, there was a match for which the Head of State declared that fans could watch free of charge and that he would settle the bill. However, further scrutiny of the matter reveals that it has led to disciplinary action against the Vice-President of FAZ, Mr Kazala, who is alleged to have collected the money on behalf of the association from the Government, but did not declare all of it. Could the hon. Minister confirm whether part of the funds that were paid by the Head of State to FAZ have gone missing?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Speaker, my office and the Government do not get involved in the way FAZ runs its business. We also do not determine who does or does not buy tickets. So, I am not privy to any issue that might have landed some executive members in problems. All we know is that there is a disciplinary matter in the executive, but we cannot point to where the problem is. FAZ is semi-autonomous and has its own way of running its affairs. The extent of the relationship between the Government and FAZ is purely restricted to the promotion of football, not the performance of executive functions.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

____________

 

BILLS

 

FIRST READING

 

THE ANTI-TERRORISM AND PROLIFERATION BILL, 2018

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Anti-Terrorism and Proliferation Bill, 2018. The objects of the Bill are to:

 

1. prevent and prohibit the carrying out of terrorism financing and proliferation activities;

 

1. provide measures for the detection and prevention of terrorism and proliferation activities;

 

1. provide for the continued existence of the National Anti-Terrorism Centre and redefine its functions;

 

1. provide for the offences of proliferation and proliferation financing;

 

1. domesticate the international conventions and treaties on anti-terrorism and proliferation;

 

1. repeal the Anti-Terrorism Act, 2007; and

 

1. provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, which is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House in due course. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

THE INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION OF ZAMBIA BILL, 2018

 

The Minister of Transport and Communication (Mr Mushimba): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Information and Communications Technology Association of Zambia Bill, 2018. The objects of the Bill are to:

 

1. provide for the existence of the Information and Communications Technology Association of Zambia and define its functions;

 

1. provide for the regulation of the education and training of information and communications technology professionals;

 

1. provide for the setting of the ethical code of conduct and information and communications technology professional standards;

 

1. to constitute the council of the association and define its functions;

 

1. provide for the qualification of membership to the association and registration of information and communications technology professionals;

 

1. define professional misconduct and provide for disciplinary procedures for information and communications technology professionals; and

 

1. to provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies, which is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House in due course. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

__________

 

MOTIONS

 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL ECONOMY, TRADE AND LABOUR MATTERS ON THE PROPOSAL FOR THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY TO APPROVE THE RATIFICATION OF THE STATUTE OF THE AFRICAN MINERALS DEVELOPMENT CENTRE

 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on the Proposal for the National Assembly to Approve the Ratification of the Statute of the African Minerals Development Centre (AMDC) for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 23^rd March, 2018.

 

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Dr Kopulande: Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 

Madam Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I had just started moving the Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, in line with Article 63 of the Constitution of Zambia and Standing Order No.158(3), your Committee considered the proposal for the National Assembly to approve the ratification of the Statute of the AMDC. In carrying out its work, your Committee interacted with various stakeholders who provided valuable information to it. I now highlight some of the findings of your Committee.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee supports the intention of the Government to ratify the Statute of the AMDC because it is aware that as a member State of the African Union (AU), Zambia supported the establishment of the AMDC, which reinforces the intentions of member States to expedite the domestication and implementation of the African Mining Vision, which is intended to enhance transparency, equity and optimal development of mineral resources to underpin broad-based sustainable growth and socio-economic development in Africa. Therefore, ratifying the statute would be an expression of Zambian’s commitment to inclusive growth, sustainable development, job creation, wealth creation and poverty eradication. Your Committee is also of the view that the ratification of the statute will enhance Zambian’s chances of hosting the AMDC here, in Lusaka, which is likely to come with attendant benefits to the country, including employment creation and ease of access to technical expertise in the area of mining. Therefore, your Committee urges the House to approve the ratification of the statute.

 

Madam Speaker, in supporting the statute, your Committee urges the Government to take care of various concerns raised by stakeholders, including your Committee’s observation regarding Article 2(2), which provides for the AMDC to be responsible for mineral resources development in Africa. Clearly, this provision has the potential to side-line a sovereign nation from carrying out its rightful responsibility of developing its mineral resources. It is the view of your Committee that the development of mineral resources should remain the preserve of the individual member States. In this regard, your Committee urges the Government to propose an amendment to Article 2(2) of the statute so that it provides for the centre to facility, rather than to engage in, the development of mineral resources.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that Article 17 of the statute provides for member States to make contributions to fund the regular budget of the centre in form of subscriptions. Your Committee is aware that the country has accumulated huge amounts of debt in the recent past, thereby putting a lot of pressure on the Treasury in terms of interest payments. Your Committee notes, for example, that the country will in the not so distant future be required to make a one-off payment on the Eurobond debt. It is, therefore, concerned that subscriptions to organisations like the centre will inevitably exert even more pressure on the Treasury.

 

Madam Speaker, considering the likely benefits associated with the establishment of the AMDC, your Committee recommends that the Government increases the momentum towards fiscal consolidation by making further cuts on unsustainable expenditure. This will ease the likely pressure on the Treasury arising from the country’s obligations once the statute is ratified.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee bemoans the limited value addition to most of Zambian’s exports, which has led to low export value and adversely affected job creation at home while promoting the same abroad. Your Committee is aware that one of the major reasons for the failure by most African countries, including Zambia, to realise full benefits from their mineral resources is a lack of strong manufacturing bases. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that Zambia takes advantage of the centre to develop a robust manufacturing industry so as to increase the value of exports and promote job creation.

 

Madam Speaker, Zambia is predominantly dependant on mineral exports for foreign exchange. However, the contribution of the mining sector to the Treasury has been declining over the years despite the country having a long history of mining. In this regard, your Committee notes that one of the functions of the centre is to support member States in the formulation, harmonisation and implementation of coherent policies, and legal and fiscal regimes geared towards the development of the mining sector. Your Committee is hopeful that the Government will effectively utilise the opportunity to review our tax laws and policies, which seem to favour the mining companies, to strengthen the sector-specific polices and to improve revenue collection from the mining sector.

 

Madam Speaker, the centre will also address the global problem of transfer pricing, which is one of the biggest challenges facing the mining sector in Zambia. That will be achieved through the development of a database of all mining entities engaged in unethical practices like profit shifting, which will, to a large extent, curb the problem of the constant declaration of losses by most mining companies and, ultimately, secure the country’s revenue.

 

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by expressing your Committee’s gratitude to you for affording it an opportunity to consider the proposal for the National Assembly to approve the ratification of the statute of the AMDC. To the witnesses who appeared before the Committee, we express our gratitude for their co-operation and input into the deliberations. Lastly, I extend your Committee’s appreciation to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the services rendered to your Committee during the deliberations.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Dr Kopulande (Chembe): Madam Speaker, as I second the Motion, I will focus primarily on the issue of the hosting of the African Minerals Development Centre (AMDC).

 

Madam, the AMDC was officially set up in December, 2013, and is currently hosted at the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa (UNECA) in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, as a project. When nations were invited to host the centre, Zambia was one of the four countries that showed interest in hosting it. Your Committee fully supports this intention, as it will bring with it both direct and indirect benefits to the country. The ratification of the statute will, therefore, enhance Zambia’s chances of winning the bid to host the centre. Whether or not Zambia fully satisfies other requirements necessary for hosting the centre, it will lose the opportunity if it does not ratify the statute.

 

Madam Speaker, one of the benefits of hosting the centre is that it will elevate the country’s international profile. The other is that it will augment the confidence that Africa has in Zambia’s leadership on matters related to the governance of mineral resources. As a host country, Zambia will have easy access to real-time advisory and legal services. It will also have access to services and a network of professionals and technologies that the centre will employ in the conduct of its business. Another benefit will be the employment opportunities that will be created for Zambians by the centre. The employment of locals will, consequently, enhance capacity building opportunities for our people. In addition, hosting the centre will benefit other sectors of the economy because the foreign experts who will be attached to it will require services like housing, transportation, food and banking.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee is concerned that in the past, there have been inconsistencies in the statistics authored by the mining companies, the Central Statistical Office (CSO) and the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) on mining outputs. This has led to serious doubts about the reliability and credibility of the value of the exports declared by the mining companies. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government works very closely with the AMDC, which will have the capacity to develop a database of all mining outputs and entities engaged in unethical practices, to ensure that the correct statistics on output are declared by the mining companies.

 

Madam Speaker, the AMDC is an African Union (AU) centre of excellence that is focused on changing the manner in which natural resources are managed on the continent. I, therefore, urge this House to focus on the expanded role of the centre and the role it will play in the socio-economic development of our country. It is the hope of your Committee that the Government will take advantage of the opportunity to diversify mining activities, facilitate domestic value addition and target viable international markets, thereby ultimately attaining high revenue collection. This will, in addition, help this dominant sector to stimulate increased activities in related economic sectors, hence boosting economic diversification and the gross domestic product (GDP), and alleviating poverty among our people through employment creation and income redistribution.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me, on behalf of your Committee, to end by expressing my gratitude to you for the guidance rendered during the Committee’s deliberations. Your Committee is also grateful to the witnesses who appeared before it for their consideration, co-operation and input into the deliberations. I also extend your Committee’s appreciation to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the services rendered to the Committee during the consideration of the statute.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate and bring out a few issues as I support the report.

 

Madam, many recommendations and submissions were made to the Committee. It was observed, for example, that our country will establish the African Minerals Development Centre (AMDC), which is, in itself, an achievement for the country. The centre will not only offer technical advice to our country, but also be a nerve centre for the entire continent.

 

Madam, one of the objectives of the centre is to administer the African Mineral Vision, which will not only stipulate the technical details for the country, but also offer a platform for knowledge sharing in Africa.

 

Madam Speaker, if the country is to fully benefit from the centre, we should not accommodate it in an old structure. We should construct new infrastructure to house the centre so that we not only create jobs through construction activities, but also provide the aesthetics and much-needed infrastructure development for our people.

 

Madam, hosting the centre will also be a sign of the trust that the African Continent has in our leadership in terms of governance, and the recognition of our country’s background in the sphere of mineral development. Considering the recommendations and observations in terms of skills development and employment creation, it is clear that the country needs to quickly ratify the Statute of the AMDC.

 

Madam Speaker, I will not bore you by repeating observations that have already been made.

 

Madam, in conclusion, …

 

Mr Ngulube: I thank you.

 

Mr Mung’andu: … the creation of the centre will create employment opportunities in our country and enable our youths to gain knowledge of mining. It will also greatly contribute to the wellbeing of our economy, since Zambia has been dependent on mineral resources for many years. In view of the fiscal regime, in which the country has been grappling with technical issues to do with mineral taxation, the establishment of the centre in our country will give us an upper hand over other countries for best practices.  We will also be a nerve centre for many other countries to learn best practices. The centre will also attract expertise from different parts of this world, and that will bring the much-needed technical expertise. As a hosting country, I believe we will really benefit from the centre.

 

With those remarks, I support the report.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank the House for overwhelmingly supporting the report.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

_________

 

BILLS

 

REPORT STAGE

 

The Rent (Amendment) Bill, 2018

 

The Subordinate Courts (Amendment) Bill, 2018

 

The Judiciary Administration (Amendment) Bill, 2018

 

Report adopted.

 

Third Readings on Wednesday, 28^th March, 2018

 

THIRD READING

 

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

 

The National Health Insurance Bill, 2017

 

­­­­­­­­­­­­­________

 

MOTION

 

MOTION OF THANKS

 

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Speaker, when the business of the House was interrupted on Friday, 23^rd March, 2018, and the House adjourned, I was debating the values and principles that are in the speech that was delivered by the President to this august House. I had just said that there was a disconnect between the values and principles, and the actions of the Patriotic Front (PF) on the ground. It is abundantly clear that the actions of the PF Government are not aligned to the values and principles that we have prescribed for ourselves.

 

Madam, I also touched on good governance and the issues of corruption, saying that the fact that we had an Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Zambia Police Service, integrity committees in various ministries and parastatals organisations, and the Financial Intelligence Unit (FIU) did not mean that we had combated corruption. For that reason, it is important that we have adequate political will to fight the scourge.

 

Madam, today, there are issues to do with the procurement of fire tenders, and I want to emphasise the point that the fire tenders that cost us US$42 million …

 

Mr Ngulube: Only!

 

Mr Samakayi: … have now been insured at US$10.5 million.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Samakayi: In kwacha terms, it is K105 million and, in the old currency, it is K105 billion.

 

Madam Speaker, the difference between the insured amount and the total purchase value for the forty-two fire trucks is K31.5 million. Seemingly, that value differential is not important to the PF Government, hence the decision to not insure it.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Samakayi: We are saying that this money is not included in the protection of the value of the fire trucks because it went into people’s pocket, and this is corruption.

 

Hon. Government Members: No, iwe!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam, the people in the Government are failing to answer the questions on this issue. For instance, the hon. Minister of Finance failed to answer, as did the hon. Minister of Justice. Instead, they talked about the underinsurance of grouped assets. Let me remind them to watch the space because there will be an audit query on the insurance of those fire trucks.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, I can equate Zambia’s leadership to a mariner who is told that there is a leak on the boat, but refuses to listen and continues to sail, advising the people to just continue bailing out the water from the boat. That is the scenario we have today.

 

Madam, it was also interesting hear that the President call for solutions from this House. One of the solutions we can give him is that he should constitute a commission to audit the accumulation of wealth by public servants and those in the private sector. Then, we would know who is involved in corruption and who is not.

 

Madam, another issue on good governance is decentralisation. The principle behind decentralisation is that we need to enhance good governance. The people must be able to make decisions on service delivery and development. However, it looks like we do not want to enhance good governance because the Government is dragging its feet on this policy. We are not moving at the speed we ought to have been moving. The Government is not providing leadership in the enhancement of good governance in this country on the development front.

 

Madam Speaker, the distribution of resources is very important to good governance because if it is not done fairly, some areas feel left out. For instance, in the North-Western Province, there are projects like the Mumbwa/Kasempa Road, which is supposed to be tarred; …

 

Ms Tambatamba: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Samakayi: … the Solwezi/Mushindamo Road, which is supposed to be worked on; and the Solwezi/Mwinilunga Road, which has been on the cards since 2009 and requires extensive rehabilitation.

 

Madam Speaker, when we were considering the 2018 Budget, the hon. Ministers promised that the Government would prioritise the funding of projects already under implementation so that they were completed. Unfortunately, the contractor for the Mwinilunga Road, Nyasi, has since abandoned the works because he has not been paid. So, we feel left out. The Manyinga/Mwinilunga/Jimbe and Kasempa/Kaoma roads are also not being financed, yet they are economic roads that can bring revenue to the Treasury. Unfortunately, the Government is concentrating on social roads simply because they are in preferred areas.

 

Mr Mwiinga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, I recently came to know that even the Northern Province is not getting the serious attention that the Eastern, Luapula and Muchinga provinces are getting.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Samakayi: The question is: Why is the Northern Province being segregated? Why has it been lumped together with the North-Western Province?

 

Ms Tambatamba: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, one issue I cannot leave out is that of diversification.

 

Madam, we have been talking about diversification, but there is no political impetus to move us positively in that direction. When we talk about serious diversification, we are talking about expanding agriculture by 60 per cent, which will definitely have an impact on climate change. So, we need to bring in good farming practices like conservation farming. We should also employ adequate forestry officers to help us in reforestation and other activities we are supposed to undertake. We must also have adequate agricultural extension officers and equipment. We must continue depending on agriculture and making progress in growing our economy.

 

Madam Speaker, we need to engage in introspection, as leaders, before coming to this House to talk about national values and principles. We should first sit in our closets and examine ourselves so that when we come to talk to the House and the nation at large, we can have clean hands.  When leaders stand in Church to talk to the congregants, they must teach the things they practise because to talk about things we do not do brings doubts in the minds of those who are listening.

  

Madam, I would like to end by saying that there is a complete disconnect between the national values and principles enshrined in the Constitution and the activities of PF members on the grounds as far as the application of the law, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are concerned.

 

I thank you, Madam, Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya entered the Assembly Chamber.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aisa!

 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam, Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Address by His Excellency the Republican President to Zambians through this august House.

 

Madam, when His Excellency the President updated us on the progress the country has made in the application of the national values and principles, his speech was mistaken in many quarters to be a state of the nation address. However, it was clear that the content of the speech was on the progress made.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to praise the people of Zambia for giving themselves the national values and principles and for allowing their Republican President to communicate progress on their application once in a year. This is a great culture because people long to hear their President, the highest authority in the land, speak about numerous issues that affect them on an annual basis. Indeed, values and principles are not the least. Therefore, I am excited by this culture that is being created.

 

Madam, I know that to speak about all of the issues in His Excellency the President’s Speech is a mammoth task, given the limited time allocated. I have, therefore, chosen to talk on only three issues, the first of which is morality and ethics.

 

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President acknowledged that morals are deteriorating in our country. There are many weaknesses in the moral fibre of our nation today, such as teenage marriages, early pregnancies, misappropriation of public funds and the abuse of social media. Allow me to say that there is too much immorality in the business of politics today.

 

Madam Speaker, people are deliberately misleading others …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: … on straightforward issues. To this effect, I will give an example because I do not want to appear as though I am also misleading others.

 

Madam, I am a lower-level leader, but there are high-level leaders who stand in front of people and mislead them by saying the Patriotic Front (PF) Government takes 80 per cent of workers’ income in taxes, which is really sad.

 

Madam Speaker, the breakdown of the taxes is as follows:

 

Tax                                          Rate (Percentage)

 

Corporation tax                                    30

 

Value-Added Tax (VAT)                     17.5

 

Pay As You Earn (PAYE)                    37.5

 

Are you normal, Madam Speaker, to add or consolidate …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Resume your seat, hon. Member for Lunte.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am sure you did not mean to say that.

 

Hon. Government Members: No!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I suppose it is the context. I am not sure that you were dragging the Chair into your debate.

 

Hon. Government Members: No!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Further, since you were referring to the Chair, I will allow that to pass but, please, bear in mind that we do not debate ourselves in this House. You may proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I apologise without reservations for being born Bemba, not English. I was thinking in Bemba and translating into English, thereby causing that problem.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: However, what I meant was to question a senior leader who consolidated Company Tax, PAYE and VAT, and claimed that they are lumped on employees. Is such a person normal? I know that the answer to that question would embarrass those who were clapping for that person. I found it very awkward for leaders to applaud such kind of sentiments from another leader. That is immorality of the highest order. We need leaders of high moral standards, who will be able to stand by their views. If their current political strategies have become too inadequate, they can find other tactics. As I always say, Zambia has many issues upon which leaders can converse and mobilise political or spiritual support. However, to choose to mislead Zambians on issues does not reflect leadership or alternative leadership.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, my next issue is patriotism and national unity.

 

Madam, His Excellency the President of Zambia recognised patriotism and national unity as the cornerstones of our socio-economic development and the heritage left by our founding fathers. I would like tackle this point from two approaches, and I will start by identifying what patriotism is not.

 

Madam, it is not patriotism to speak ill of your country whether within or outside it.

 

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: It is not patriotism to deliberately mislead the international community with a view to demobilising your country. It is also not patriotism to spread falsehoods whether on social media or on the Floor of this House.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, failing to accept the will of Zambians is not patriotism. It is also not patriotism to encourage or participate in the commission of arson. I will quickly also add that it is not patriotism to promote tribalism and regionalism. It is also not patriotism to be nepotistic. What we need is to be united.

 

Madam Speaker, my last issue is democracy and constitutionalism.

 

Madam, Zambia decided to be a multiparty nation. We chose multipartism over the one-party system of the United National Independence Party (UNIP). Therefore, we should be able to express divergent views about the leadership of this nation and about all the things that happen in our country. To be a democrat, you must tolerate the very fact that people do not want you, but want someone else.

 

Mrs M. Phiri: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, to be a democrat, you must demonstrate respect for democracy and be able, within your political party, to go to a convention like the Patriotic Front (PF) does.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Phiri: Bwekeshapo!

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, Mr Abraham Lincoln, a former President of the United States of America (USA), once said that democracy is “a government of the people, by the people and for the people”. You cannot rule without the consent of the people, unless you are a dictator. It is important that the will of the people is respected. That is what democracy is all about.

 

Madam Speaker, let me end by emphasising that the President said that our values and principles are the foundation of what we are doing as a country. They are the cornerstone. Therefore, I find it very difficult to perforate any content of that speech because our values and principles need to be promoted by all of us. To stand here and perforate a document that was well-intended and well-delivered is not patriotism.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, looking at the time, I had given up, but thank you for giving me this opportunity to say a few words on the speech delivered by the Republican President on the implementation of national values and principles. However, I must say that I am expecting some Motion today. So, I wish I had debated last week because, then, I would have done justice to the Motion.

 

Interruptions

 

Mrs Chonya: Nonetheless, I want to highlight some issues from the President’s speech, particularly the subject on which my colleague ended, which is national unity and patriotism.

 

Madam, indeed, we need unity in this country. I cry for this very important national value every day and always pray that we can have people in the Ruling Party who will be committed to national unity. At the moment, our colleagues on your right are in the driving seat and are the ones who have the responsibility to bring everybody together and ensure that unity is achieved in this country.

 

Madam Speaker, if you look at the aspect of dialogue, which would have helped us to achieve unity in this country, it has been in shambles, and I do not know if that word is parliamentary. The reason is that our friends on the other side have not been sincere and committed to this process. Dialogue would have helped us to resolve many issues and move together as One Zambia, One Nation. Apart from not engaging in this important activity, the Ruling Party has gone ahead to do many things that have left us wondering whether we can consider ourselves equal players in our democratic process.

 

Madam Speaker, people have cried on the Floor of this House about how some sections of society continue to be discriminated. These are very unpleasant issues to talk about, but unfortunately, they are real in our country and we cannot stop talking about them until people correct the wrongs somewhere. If we do not talk about them, we will be failing in our duty to protect the people who have been victims of discrimination. I have in mind the topical issue of retiring people in someone’s interest, not really the national interest. These may sound like dead issues, but they are very much alive. Earlier today, somebody was urging us not to keep talking about the recent procurement of fire tenders. How can we stop talking about these issues when there are the ones that are hurting Zambians? If the Government wants to ignore what we are saying, and I believe that we are the voice of the people, then, it is not dedicated to dealing with the issues over which many Zambians are hurting.

 

Madam Speaker, the President touched on constitutionalism and democracy. However, I can refer to the presidential petition, for instance, which was not heard.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mrs Chonya: One would have expected the deliverer of that speech to restate his commitment to the dialogue about which I have already talked. I admire Kenya because, last year, Uhuru Kenyatta and Raila Odinga, for once, rose above their differences and shook hands as brothers. That is what we want. Our colleagues on the other side should become sincere and allow democracy to flourish. The United Party for National Development (UPND) has been in the opposition for nearly twenty years now.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya: I must state that is a very good record and a demonstration that the party has become mature and is ready to govern.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mrs Chonya: Madam, the point I am making is that the UPND has not had problems co-existing peacefully with leaders of the previous Ruling Party. Why has it become so difficult for it to co-exist peacefully with the current Ruling Party? These are the things on which I want this Ruling Party to reflect before it points a finger at the left side of the House. It should not accuse us of raising the same issues all the time. If it wants us to stop talking about those things, it should stop doing them so that we can have nothing about which to talk. We would rather talk about the development of this country. We must not waste time politicking here at the expense of solving the many problems that the Zambian populace is facing. 

 

Madam Speaker, the President also talked about social justice. However, not too long ago, we were talking about the displacement of some people in our various constituencies. Chipata was given as an example. The people of Sondela/Kapongo in Kafue are also facing displacement. Where is social justice when our people cannot live in peace where God designated them to live in this country? Every morning, they wake up knowing that they may be displaced ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mrs Chonya: ... by powerful people. They are not being protected by this party, which rose to power on the promise of protecting the poor.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya: The people in the Patriotic Front (PF) have lost their original vision and have become merchants so that they can become rich overnight at the expense of the poor.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya: Madam Speaker, that is not desirable for our people.

 

Madam Speaker, the President also expressed concern that our youths abuse alcohol and take illegal drugs. It is not enough for him to be concerned. The Government needs to implement programmes that will engage the youth so that they do not involve themselves in illicit activities. Statistics were given here of the number of tricycles that were given and business centres that have been built. However, very little effort is being made to address the many demands of our youths. The two tricycles that the Government sent to Kafue are not enough to meet the requirements of the youths there. Moreover, they are being driven by PF cadres. Where is the equity about which the Government is talking?

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mrs Chonya: Like somebody said, let us talk about things we mean and things that we are dedicated to doing. People should not come here to just give speeches that give very little inspiration.

 

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the “Buy Zambian Campaign”, which was in the President’s Speech.

 

Madam, what can we, Zambians, buy that is manufactured in Zambia? What do we really manufacture that we can be encouraged to buy? The Government should have said, for instance, that it will support the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) so that fertiliser can be manufactured in Zambia in order for our farmers to buy Zambian fertiliser. That would have been a very good pronouncement. However, the President encouraged us to buy Zambian products when the only product we manufacture is Super Shake by Trade Kings Limited. So, the Speech did not do justice to this campaign.

 

Madam Speaker, I agree that we need sustainable development. Indeed, we should safeguard our natural resources, such as rivers and timber. I do not want to touch on the, indiscriminate exploitation of resources because we have already heard about that in this House. I will just emphasise, once again, that we should mean what we say. This was the second President’s Addresses of its kind and I expected to hear real progress on what has been done to resolve the challenges we face.

 

Madam Speaker, lastly, we are a democracy, and we chose this type of governance voluntarily. This Government must not do anything to stifle the democracy that we need to enjoy in our country. If we, the Opposition, decide to move an impeachment Motion, that is within our rights.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya: We believe that nobody should stop that process before its logical conclusion ...

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Mrs Chonya: ... because that is one way of building national unity,

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Justice, please, resume your seat.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama rose.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, resume your seat. She is just winding up her debate.

 

Mrs Chonya: Madam Speaker, thank you for your protection.

 

Madam, the point I was making is that moving an impeachment Motion and considering it is part of our terms of reference, as hon. Members of Parliament.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya: So, people should not frustrate a noble effort. If anything, if the Government is interested in dialogue and national unity, it should hear what we have to say ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mrs Chonya: ... so that we iron out the issues.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my right!

 

Hon. Minister of Justice, resume your seat. I want to guide the House.

 

Mr Lubinda resumed his seat.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, it appears that, sometimes, just the mention of certain words creates disorder in the House. I am here to listen to all of you and I have listened to the hon. Member for Kafue Constituency, who has indicated that, as Opposition hon. Members of Parliament, it is their right to move a Motion that is prescribed in the Constitution.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: If there was anything she said that was not within the rules of this House, I would have been the first to stop her.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Government Members interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Her exact words were, “It is our right if we want to move a Motion”.

 

Hon. Government Members interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I do not think she said that the Patriotic Front (PF) is stopping them. The PF cannot stop them from doing that because the PF hon. Members of this House are just like the Opposition hon. Members.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We have a Constitution that guides all of us on the rights that we have as hon. Members of Parliament. In my view, the hon. Member for Kafue said nothing that was not within our rules.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Kafue has ended her debate.

 

Mr Jamba (Mwembeshi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the President’s Address to this House. From the outset I want to hinge my debate on the National Anthem. However, before I do so, let me just highlight some of the things that I think are a thorn in our flesh as a country.

 

Madam, when the President came to address this House, as a new Member of Parliament, I was very surprised by what I observed. I do not know whether it was by design that the hon. Members on your right, which is my left, wore green neckties. Similarly, the hon. Members on your left wore red shirts.

 

Mrs Chonya: What colour were you wearing?

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, this House is supposed to bring unity in the country and show that its hon. Members are above partisan interests.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, this House should not be reduced to a place where people come dressed in colours of their party regalia. I am speaking independently, and what I am saying is the truth. As hon. Members, we need to show leadership and be above board regardless of the party to which we belong. When we come to this House, we are dealing with national, not party, matters. We must treat them with the seriousness they deserve. That is why I was disappointed to see many green neckties and red shirts. We need to move from the practice of reducing this House to a party circus. We need to be above board and make this a national House. This is an august House because we are supposed to debate matters in an orderly manner.

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will not allow points of order. Resume your seat, Hon. Ngulube. I will have order on both sides of the House.

 

Mr Ngulube resumed his seat.

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your protection.

 

Madam Speaker, this House is called an august House because we debate issues soberly.

 

Hon. Member: We are not sober!

 

Mr Jamba: We are supposed to debate issues in a manner that shows that we are above party interests because this is a national House.

 

Mrs Chonya: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: I was very disappointed on that day.

 

Madam Speaker, let me move away from that issue and debate the National Anthem as a citizen who is very concerned about what is happening in Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President was right to say there are early marriages, abuse of alcohol and the taking of illicit drugs in this country. There is a verse in our National Anthem that urges us to stand proud and free. However, how can we stand proud and free when we are not serious with what we are doing? How can we be free with so much debt?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, the country needs to invest the money it borrows in areas that will make more money so that it is able repay the debt. How can an eagle fly without its own wings?

 

Mr Mbangweta: Ask them!

 

Mr Jamba: I am not asking anyone.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, we are supposed to be proud and free. In my language, they say “buchete tabupi bulemu”, which means when you are poor, you will laugh even when someone is insulting you .There is no dignity in poverty.

 

Mrs Chonya: There is no integrity!

 

Mr Jamba: One man from the West said that the countries in our region are “sh*tholes”. How can someone start insulting us? It is because of our poverty. His Excellency the President was right. We need to find ways to end poverty so that we minimise early marriages and alcohol abuse.

 

Madam Speaker, how can I be proud of Zambia when small countries like Swaziland can produce more milk than we do?

 

Ms Subulwa: Iwe, we produce milk!

 

Mr Jamba: We import milk from Kenya and New Zealand just to make Trade Kings Products. How can we be proud? My point is that we should work together to redeem Zambia from poverty. If we are poor, we cannot stand proud and free. Where is the pride in poverty? His Excellency the President was right.

 

Madam Speaker, our National Anthem also talks about dignity and peace. Where is dignity in poverty? Where is the dignity in buying Coca-Cola from other countries when we can make our own drinks like Quench, which we used to make in 1991?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I am a patriotic Zambian who is willing to work with whichever Government that is in power, be it the United Party for National Development (UPND) or the Patriotic Front (PF), to alleviate the poverty of our people.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I feel like I am twenty years behind. Those who grew up in that time know that there was a company in Chingola that used to manufacture tyres.

 

Hon. Member: Where?

 

Mr Jamba: There were also companies that manufactured drinks like Quench using pineapples bought from the North-Western Province, but they are no more. Of what can we be proud? What do we make?

 

Madam Speaker, if the hon. Members in this House were to take off what is not made in Zambia, they would remain without anything. Where is the pride?

 

Mr Jamba: If I removed everything that is not Zambian, I would remain without even what I am wearing because they were made in Bangladesh.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: So, where is my pride?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, what I am simply saying is that I want to see a Zambia that can grow cotton and create a manufacturing company for clothes instead of having to go on the streets to buy salaula. Where is the dignity in kugula salaula even tuma underwear?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jamba: I think we need to look forward and see how we can harness ourselves so that we progress.

 

Madam Speaker, somewhere, it is written that “God will bless your land, and when God has blessed your land, you will have enough rains and you will lend money, not borrow it”. I look forward to a country that will lend out money. It is not good for us to continue borrowing. Let us reach a stage where we can lend money to some people. Then, we shall move with dignity. If we work together to steer this country in the right direction, we will create a Zambia that will be better for our children.

 

Madam, the President was also right when he said Zambia must be free. The National Anthem says, “Free men we stand under the flag”. We need freedom.

 

Ms Subulwa: We are free.

 

Mr Jamba: We need freedom so that when I speak here, no one should intimidate me. We need to speak out and everyone must be free. If we are all free and we put our minds together, we can develop this country.

 

Madam Speaker, let me end by saying that we need to protect this land, which is the only one we have, and make it proud by doing what is Zambian.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda (Chisamba): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate.

 

Madam Speaker, on page 4, bullet number 12, of his address, the President spoke of morals that have deteriorated. I cannot agree more with that statement.

 

Madam Speaker, morals, principles and values start with us, the leaders.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, I expected the President to speak about the morals of the hon. Members on the Executive side of the House. I expected him to mention that his hon. Ministers had not paid back the money that was used during election campaigns.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Kasanda: The hon. Ministers have not paid back that money and for the vehicles they used during campaigns.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam, the President should also have said that the hon. Ministers stayed in office illegally.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, where are the morals, which should start with the Executive?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, when I heard the President speak about morals, I expected him to make a clear statement on the Executive …

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Ministers of Labour and Social Security, Livestock and Fisheries, and Youth, Sport and Child Development!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Livune: Look at them.

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, maybe, it is a matter of “ubomba mwibala, alya mwibala”.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Kasanda: That is probably how he opened a Pandora’s Box.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda: That is why we have seen what is happening currently.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda: When you say ubomba mwibala alya mwibala, in no time, you will see mortuary attendants selling body parts because ba bomba mwibala.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chisamba!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

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The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 28^th March, 2018.

 

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