Thursday, 7^th December, 2017

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

_________

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

NON-COMMEMORATION OF THE 2017 WORLD AIDS DAY

 

100. Dr Kalila (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Health:

 

1. why the Government had not facilitated the commemoration of the 2017 World AIDS Day which falls on 1^st December;

 

1. whether there were any plans to commemorate the Day in order to show commitment towards the fight against Human Immuno Virus/Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS); and

 

1. if so, when the Day would be commemorated.

 

The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the Government will continue facilitating the commemoration of the World AIDS Day as it has done each year since 1988. The House may note that for 2017, Government shifted the commemoration of the World AIDS Day from 1^st December to 11^th December to allow for more participation country-wide and this was done after consultations with various stakeholders. This includes consideration of political participation to allow provincial celebrations to be managed by Provincial Ministers.

 

Sir, the House may further wish to note that following the launch of the universal routine HIV testing, counselling and treatment on 15^th August, 2017, by His Excellency, the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, our focus as a country is to heighten the multi-sectoral response, preventive, treatment, care and support interventions. This includes high impact interventions and one of them is awareness through the celebration of the World AIDS Day.

 

Mr Speaker, the Government has decided to commemorate the World AIDS Day on Monday, 11^th December, 2017, and these celebrations will be presided over by Provincial Ministers in all the ten provinces, while the Lusaka one will be presided over by His Excellency, the President.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, the World AIDS Day has been celebrated since 1988, consistently. I do not remember a single year when it was shifted because it is a global effort to try and galvanise the world and also to honour regional, continental and political commitments. Have we now broken ranks with this international norm?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the World AIDS Day falls on 1^st December, but the official celebration that any country holds can be done on a day it deems it fit.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Dr Chilufya: World-wide, the World AIDS Day is 1^st December, but if you have events in a country that will not allow you to celebrate on that day with impact, you are allowed as a sovereign nation to shift the official day of celebration. It does not alter the global day. It is just about the function itself.

 

Sir, we have decided to heighten political leadership participation when it comes to the response to HIV/AIDS and we made a decision that we will not have Parliament compete with such a key event. That is why we decided to place it on Monday when Parliament does not sit and Provincial Ministers will be able to officiate at these celebrations.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the World AIDS Day has always been commemorated on 1^st December since 1988. When did the Government inform the people of Zambia and the world at large that, as a country, we have decided to shift the commemoration of the day to another date?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, like I said, we consulted the United Nations (UN) AIDS, which is in charge of the HIV response globally and in Zambia and the stakeholders who participate in the HIV response. The build up to the official day for celebration involves activities that have been taking placing building up not only to 1^st December, but to 11^th December, when the celebration will take place. Therefore, just before 1^st December, a statement was released by the Ministry of Health’s spokesperson stating that we had shifted the day for the function to 11^th December for impact.  It is not just about fulfilling a fixture that we have celebrated the World AIDS Day, but there must be impact and leadership from the highest level. Therefore, we must celebrate it in a way that we walk the talk and there is political will.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, as far as I can remember, all the other years, there has been wider participation in this very important day. I am trying to come to terms with this shift. Perhaps the hon. Minister can explain to us why there is a date shift because the reason to suggest that this time we are expecting a wider participation is not very convincing. As far as I know, there has always been wider participation demonstrated by candle light services and so on.

 

In fact, I came to learn about this change from my district. I was supposed to participate then suddenly they told me that they had received communication that this day had been moved. Now, I really do not know what kind of participation the hon. Minister is talking about. This day is a very important day and I think the manner in which it has been handled this year sends wrong signals to the rest of the whole world, when it comes to our commitment to the fight against HIV/AIDS. May he clarify what he means by wider participation?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I am at pains to understand why the issue of commemorating World AIDS Day should be an issue. We can commemorate World AIDS Day on any day that we designate as a country.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: It is called commemoration of a particular day.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Let us have some order in the House.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, let me state this, for instance, we have a Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) Malaria Day and by convention, we have agreed that there is a week we should choose as various countries to commemorate World SADC Malaria Day. This simply means that this is the day when as country, we demonstrate and raise awareness on the subject and have the peak of the activities that have been building up towards that particular day. Therefore, Mr Speaker, the very fact that the hon. Member of Parliament was informed by the district simply means that this information was disseminated.

 

Like I said earlier on, it was not a unilateral decision. It was a decision made in consultation with all the stakeholders. Hence there is nothing illegal or peculiar about it. As a sovereign state, we are allowed to choose which day we can pick to commemorate World AIDS Day. The World AIDS Day has not shifted, it is still 1^st December, but the official function can be held on any other day.

 

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Do not ask questions whilst you are seated.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kundoti (Luena): Mr Speaker, my question is in relation to the World AIDS Day. Sir, currently, there are reports circulating that our health facilities do not have sufficient stocks of antiretroviral (ARVs) drugs. Could it be the reason why the Government has decided not to celebrate this day?

 

Mr Speaker: I think let us be fair.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: He has given reasons why the celebration would be done on the 11^th of December. Hon. Minister, could you give an answer on the ARVs status?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the country has adequate stocks for Anti Retro Viral (ARVs) drugs and we are not rationing. There is no relationship whatsoever between the stock status of the ARVs in the country and the celebration of the World AIDS Day. World AIDS Day is just one day, but there are activities that take place for the whole month of December.

 

For the information of the hon. Member, the month of December is dedicated to activities about HIV/AIDS. Therefore, that day is just a peak. We do various activities throughout the month of December. We can do candle lighting on this day. On 1^st December, we will celebrate the official function and carry on with all the other activities throughout the month. Therefore, December is actually the World AIDS month.

 

I, therefore, want to emphasise that there is no relationship between ARVs and World AIDS Day.

 

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Speaker, recently, the hon. Minister brought to this House HIV/AIDS testing kits here. It was so good and we appreciated that gesture. Now, after bringing those test kits here on the Floor of this august House, he now has changed the commemoration of the World AIDS Day for which he brought the testing kits, this becomes a problem.

 

According to his answer, he wants some political players such as ministers to attend the World AIDS Day on the 11^th of December, and yet, he knows very well that on this day, they will sit as Cabinet. What will happen to the commemoration of this day since on the 11^th of December, which is a Monday, and they will be sitting as Cabinet? What will happen? Are they going to sit as Cabinet or they will commemorate this World AIDS day?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutelo: Or they did not want to celebrate it because His Excellency, the President, was not in the country?

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Laughter

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, Cabinet does not sit every Monday. For the comfort of the hon. Member of Parliament, there is no Cabinet meeting on Monday the 11^th of December. Cabinet does not sit every Monday.

 

Sir, I am tempted to throw back the question to the hon. Member, what injury would the shift of a day that we commemorate World AIDS Day would cause? The answer is simply no injury. We should just make sure that as we celebrate the day. Let there be impact and let there be participation at the highest level, such as Members of Parliament and Ministers. On Mondays, the House does not sit, therefore, it is important that we get to our constituencies and participate in World AIDS Day. For instance, if the 1^st December was falling on a Friday, when Parliament was sitting and other stakeholders had equally other engagements what would have happened? So, I emphasise that it was a collective decision after consultation with other stakeholders.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, it is very clear that as a country we have broken ranks with the International Convention, which I think is very sad indeed. However, did the hon. Minister make a public statement recognising this day to raise public awareness as it is normally done so that the nation as a whole is aware about 1^st December as World AIDS Day. Was a televised statement made?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, a press statement was issued by the ministry’s spokesperson that this day had been shifted. Therefore, the new agenda will be that on the 10^th December, 2017, there shall be a televised address to the nation to signal that the following day, there will be the official function of the event. The initial notice was made public and we did not have any challenges from the stakeholders.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Speaker, I heard from the hon. Minister that the main reason the commemoration was shifted to the 11^th December, 2017, was to afford political involvement so that there could be political leadership in the commemoration of the HIV/AIDs Day. I would like to find out how many Government hon. Ministers from the Patriotic Front (PF) Government have already tested for HIV/AIDs in the quest to provide leadership.

 

Mr Mwale: Question!

 

Laughter

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the Government has made its policy clear by encouraging all the citizens to know their status so that those who are found to be positive can start the treatment. While upholding the utmost ethical practice, which includes confidentiality, everyone has the opportunity to test, but no one is compelled by any law or provision to go public. Therefore, I am actually, very surprised that we would have such a question on the Floor of the House.

 

Sir, every citizen, hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament are free to test and keep the results to themselves. We, therefore, do not need the statistics on the Floor of the House to know how many hon. Members or hon. Ministers have tested. What we need is for people to understand that testing is important because it is a link to treatment so that once started on treatment, one will have a better quality life and they will not infect others. Further, it is an effective way of prevention.

 

Mr Speaker, personal decisions, confidentiality and ethical practice will be upheld.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

____

 

BILLS

 

FIRST READING

 

THE INDUSTRIAL AND LABOUR RELATIONS (Amendment) BILL, 2017

 

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mrs Simukoko): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Industrial and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill, 2017. The objects of the Bill are to provide for the following:

 

1.  the payment of fees and other services; and

 

1. matters connected with, the incidental to, the foregoing.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 13^th December, 2017. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.  

 

Thank you.

 

THE EMPLOYMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2017

 

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mrs Simukoko): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Employment (Amendment) Bill, 2017. The objectives of the Bill are to provide for the following:

 

1. the payment of fees and other services; and

 

1. matters connected with, the incidental to, the foregoing.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 13^th December, 2017. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

Thank you.

 

____

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITUE) FOR THE YEAR 1^ST JANUARY, 2018 TO 31^ST DECEMBER, 2018

 

VOTE – (Anti-Corruption Commission – K85,048,710).

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Anti-Corruption (ACC) for 2018.

 

Madam, allow me to begin by stating that the patriotic Front (PF) Government remains resolute to the fight against corruption in Zambia.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has reiterated this time and again, and most recently at the Official Opening of the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly on 15^th September, 2017.

 

Mr Speaker, on that occasion, His Excellency, the President, clearly stated that transparency and accountability are important governance tenets that are critical to National unity and inclusive development. He stated that the Government will continue strengthening oversight institutions such as the ACC, Office of the Public Protector and the National Audit Office.

 

Madam Chairperson, the commitment to continue strengthening the operations of institutions such as the ACC, clearly demonstrates that the PF Government has not diverted from its stance of the zero tolerance to corruption. The ACC has since developed a new strategic plan that focuses on implementing mechanisms that will enhance its capacity to detect, investigate prosecute and prevent corruption. The desired outcomes of the plan are to mitigate corruption, instill integrity and sustain public confidence and trust in the commission as a leading corruption agency in the country.

 

Madam, to achieve the desired outcomes, the commission will undoubtedly require political and other support to execute the plan in order to fulfill the aspirations of the Zambian people of a corruption free Zambia. The Government will also continue to build and strengthen programmes and policies that support the implementation of a comprehensive Anti-Corruption reform.

 

Mr Speaker, the National Anti-Corruption Policy is one such programme that aims at promoting open transparent and accountable Government systems at all levels. In addition, the ACC is geared to creating and strengthening partnerships with the Civil Society Organisations (CSOs) and the business sector in order to bring them on board and espouse the spirit of zero tolerance to corruption. This is the global move deliberated upon during the recent United Nations (UN) Convention Against Corruption.

 

Madam Chairperson, the fight against corruption is enormous. During the year, the commission encountered the following challenges:

1. high turnover of skilled staff, thus affecting adversely the performance and productivity of the commission;

 

1. inadequate staff capacity and staffing levels, thus affecting the implementation of the commission’s mandate;

 

1. insufficient stakeholder commitment and willingness to support the commission’s engagement in anti-corruption initiatives and activities; and

 

1. increased levels of public tolerance to corruption, suggesting that the commission’s interventions may not currently be having desired effects.

 

Madam Chairperson, despite these challenges, the commission has endeavoured to execute its mandate, which includes investigating and prosecuting suspected offenders, sensitising members of the public on the dangers and effects of corruption and working towards sealing loopholes of corruption through preventive mechanisms.

 

Madam Chairperson, during the year, the commission recorded sixteen convictions. In addition, over 8 million people have been reached through various sensitisation programmes and four integrity committees have been established to spearhead the fight against corruption in their institutions, bringing the total number of integrity committees so far established to fifty-six.

 

Madam Chairperson, the fight against corruption cannot be left to the ACC alone. The administrative lapses that we continue to witness, as highlighted by the Auditor-General’s reports, cannot be allowed to continue.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: We need to bring this to a stop immediately. Public resources cannot be allowed to be stolen with impunity. I challenge this august House that we need to revisit the laws and financial regulations so that we put in place punitive and stringent measures that will stop and deter anyone from pilfering public resources.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to present to this august House estimates for the operations of the ACC, which are in line with its mandate, as stipulated in the Anti-Corruption Act, No. 3 of 2012. In order to ascertain the effectiveness of the anti-corruption campaign, in both the public and private sectors, the Government through the ACC will focus on the following areas in combating corruption in both the immediate and medium term:

 

1. enforcements;

 

1. administrative corruption reform initiatives;

 

1. intensified public awareness programmes; and

 

1. research, monitoring and evaluation.

 

Madam Chairperson, in addressing the above, the commission will undertake, among others, the following activities:

 

1. enhancement of investigations and court operations. This will ensure that the commission’s capacity to timely investigate and successfully prosecute corruption cases is strengthened and hence act as a powerful deterrence tool;

 

1. rolling out the integrity reform initiative to prevent corruption in mainstream public and private sector governance systems and review of the National Anti-Corruption Policy;

 

1. development of regulations to give effect to the provisions of the Public Interest Disclosure Act, No. 4 of 2010. The regulations will provide guidelines and procedures to enhance protection of whistleblowers, among others;
2. establishment and strengthening cooperation with key strategic domestic institutions involved in anti-corruption such as the Auditor-General, Financial Intelligence Centre, Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) and Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA); and

 

1. engagement of the media, CSOs, civic leaders, community groups and youths in anti-corruptions programmes and activities.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is envisaged that implementation of the above programmes in 2018, will result in a more operative and effectual fight against corruption in Zambia. The total budget for the commission in 2018, is K85,048,710, out of which K25,658,701 is the operational budget allocation. The Government has, therefore, increased the commission’s budget in 2018, by K8,915,431, which increase has been allocated for operational purposes. This improvement in the operational budget allocation is expected to enable the commission undertake the above mentioned activities to address the scourge of corruption through timely conclusion of investigation cases and increased conviction rates.

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members of this august House for their continued support in the fight against corruption and for ensuring that institutions that are tasked to safeguard our country’s resources are held accountable to the people. I wish to urge each citizen of this great nation to take an active role in the fight against corruption, for the fight belongs to all of us and the national slogan clearly pronounces, “A corruption free Zambia begins with me”.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for presenting the policy statement for this Vote, which I support. In doing so, I want to say a few words. I will start off by defining what I understand by corruption and how the English dictionary defines it. I will then give my reflections. In my understanding, corruption is dishonest or fraudulent behaviour or conduct by those in power. The English dictionary …

 

Hon. PF Members: No, no! Question!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Restate your authority again.

 

Mr Mbangweta: I am saying that the Oxford dictionary defines corruption as illegal behaviour, especially by powerful people such as government officials and politicians. However, I was giving my own understanding in the context of what we are discussing here.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

He has explained that his definition is not according to any authority. He has cited himself. Therefore, that is his own understanding.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

The Chairperson: And we should allow him to debate.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: Please continue.

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Chairperson, thank you.

 

If my definition is what it is, we have challenges in the context of the way we have been operating or the way in which this institution has been operating. The mandate for the institution is clear. It has no ambiguity. However, what has happened in the interim appears to be hindering its mandate or operations.

 

The first one is the pronouncement that before Cabinet hon. Ministers are investigated, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) ought to ask for permission from the principal of the institution. That means they are inhibited because they cannot investigate those people in the context of the definition I have given. Instead of investigating everybody, they are now focusing on the small fish, which does not mean anything in the context of fighting corruption. Therefore, there is nothing we are doing.

 

The second thing is that the institution provides for whistle blowers. This is typical in all countries. However, in this country, it is very surprising that this institution has been cowed to the extent that now, they ask whistle blowers to do the job. This is not what is intended. Even in organisations in the public sector and so on, there are integrity committees. Whistle blowing is provided for in their policies. Therefore, why has this institution allowed politicians to be in the forefront to say that when an issue is reported, instead of the Commission just going ahead to investigate, whistle blowers should first bring evidence? That is not their duty. This shows lack of performance. They are not doing what they are supposed to do.

 

Madam Chairperson, the citizens of this country have been complaining about how big projects such as the procurement of fire tenders, construction of airports and procurement of ambulances have been done. Politicians and senior Government officials are the people who can influence the procurement of such projects because they are powerful. They are the people who handle procurement, and they handled the procurement of these projects. What has happened? This institution has just sat back. We do not know what they are waiting for. Of course, there must be some constraints which have been imposed on the ACC. The end result is that all of us citizens who pay tax are paying people who are not doing anything. Therefore, even voting to pass the money allocated to this institution is a bit problematic. What are we paying them for? To chase the people who are giving them support instead of chasing the people who are denying citizens service delivery?

 

Madam Chairperson, corruption is bad because it increases the cost of doing business. Everybody has agreed that a normal fire truck should cost a certain amount, but somebody has insisted that we do not need a normal fire truck. We need a very expensive fire truck which cannot go to certain areas. Therefore, what is the point of having the ACC? They should be investigating these issues on their own.

 

The most unfortunate thing which has happened of late is that this Commission has allowed its officers to sit in procurement committee meetings. By sitting in these meetings, they get compromised. A typical issue is about the fire tenders. What was the first explanation given by the Commission? It was that this issue was cleared by them. How can they clear something when they are not even supposed to be in procurement committee meetings? It was the same on the issue of the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA). Members of the Commission were part of the procurement process. That is not their duty. Their duty is to investigate areas where there are concerns. That is all they are supposed to do. At the moment, they are not performing.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about election results and the way we conduct our elections. There is so much corruption and that is why a lot of results are not necessarily acceptable to a lot of people at councillor, Member of Parliament level and so on. Why? It is because there is a lot of corruption in the way we do things. What has this institution done about this? Nothing.

 

Our forefathers were not educated, but under the Kaunda regime, a lot of these things which are happening now, were not happening then. Public office workers could not dare do what they are doing now. The question is: Why has their corrupt behaviour become so endemic? We cannot say corruption is not happening because people are complaining about it. There is a reason for complaining.

 

Even though we are not supposed to discuss ourselves, let me just say that hon. Members of Parliament and Government officers go to a lot of countries to get best practices. Why is it that Government officers do not do what officers in other countries do?

 

Madam Chairperson, on page 1260 of the Yellow Book, there is Programme 4071, Activity 003 – Publicity (41) – K733,860, Activity 005 – Production of Corporate Materials –K263,650 and Activity 001 – Stakeholder Interaction Conference – K54,000. The Commission wants to spend more than K1 million on corporate image. What is that for? They do not need corporate image. What they need to do is just work. This money they have proposed under this Programme should support their mandate, not the corporate image. They do not need the corporate image if they are doing their work properly.

 

Now, look at the money that has been proposed for legislative review, which is the most important part of what they are supposed to do, they have proposed only K316,930. What sort of priorities are these? This money cannot support the service delivery they are talking about. Her Honour the Vice-President mentioned the challenges that the institution is facing in the current year in terms of staffing, high turnover of staff and so on. Who is supposed to resolve that? Is it not the Government? If there was political will, the officers in that institution would be paid highly to make sure that they do not get compromised during their operations. However, because of lack of political will, we have this situation. They should also receive the best training so that they can do their work well.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the solutions. What I expect, in this institution, under the leadership of the new Director-General, is investigation and prosecution of high profile people. There should be no stories. Since last year, which high profile case have they handled to its conclusion? If you check, you will see that they only dealt with small fish. High profile people only appear in the institution when they differ with the system. When your colleagues in the Government want to victimise you, the ACC will call you. That should not be the way to operate. Officers from the ACC cannot come here and say that they are doing their job properly. They are not, because people are complaining about us senior politicians.

It does not mean that we are all clean. How come senior politicians who served in the previous administration were arrested or investigated? What has changed? Are we all so clean now that there are no issues to investigate about us? I do not think so because on the contrary, complaints about corruption have escalated and now there is grand corruption.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to see all the high powered people named and shamed, without exception. That way, corruption will be mitigated. The Government cannot say it has zero tolerance to corruption when it is doing other things in the evening. What one does, matters more than what they say. People on the streets can see what is happening. That is why the bureaucrats in the offices do not work. Instead, they look for loopholes to make more money. That should not be allowed. All the people who are inhibiting investigations involving those who have committed corruption must be arrested as well. If an allegation is made against anyone and that person is accused of being corrupt has not committed any offence, then they will be cleared. Therefore, there is no need to start pre-empting and claiming innocence. If we do not do that, we will appear to be condoning and encouraging corruption.  That could be why corruption is escalating now.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the context of being a poor country, why would we be going for the most expensive items in whatever shape or form? What we need is a cheap and functional item. When we become rich, then we can get whatever we want. A person driving a Fiat and the one driving a Cadillac will both arrive at the same place. The time of arrival may be different, but they will still arrive on the same day. There is, therefore, no reason to ignore people’s complaints. When people complain, we must listen. Let us not just assume that everything is fine. In the past administrations, that is, under Dr Kaunda, Dr Chiluba and other past Presidents, the country was buying ambulances and fire tenders. When I was a young man, I went to school in Sesheke, and there was a fire tender there. There were no issues of costs. Why are there issues of costs now? It is because there is a problem, and we must be sensitive to those issues.

 

With those few remarks, I support this Vote.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Chairperson, Zambia today is not where our freedom fighters and forefathers envisaged it to be. There are many factors leading to this, but one major one is corruption. I want to join the President of this Republic in making the pronouncement and not hiding that there is corruption. As Her Honour the Vice-President, whom I truly commend for ably presenting the policy statement, put it, the fight against corruption starts with me.

 

Madam Chairperson, we must fight this corruption which is in every strata of our society. You will find it amongst the very rich, the common folk and you will find it raising its head in our society. Therefore, when we talk about corruption, it is not just political talk. The fight against corruption is about the survival of our country and the aspirations of our people. This is why I urge the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) who is a lead agency in the fight against corruption to put on their boots and ensure that those who are corrupt are met head on. This fight must be fought regardless of who is involved. That is to say, whether it is in the corridors of power or whichever corridors, corruption must be fought. That is how we can spur our nation to great heights. This country is too great. When you find examination papers, amongst our children, before an examination is written, what does that tell us? It goes to the ethics that we hold. We have to develop a code of ethics. I want to commend the Secretary to the Cabinet for bringing this up in the Public Service. However, I would like to urge him to ensure that the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) and those who serve with him make the Code of Ethics known, not by all who serve the Public Service.

 

Madam Chairperson, if you go to rural areas like Kanchibiya, to my relatives in Nalolo and Kabompo, you will find that a class teacher will sometimes, be absent from class for two weeks and pupils are not being taught. That is also a form of corruption because the teacher is getting paid for a service which he is not providing. I would, therefore, like to urge the hon. Minister of General Education to address this issue. We have so many unemployed teachers who would execute their duties better if they were employed. We should not be shy to get to the point of incident when we find that the teacher is not available without proper reason for staying away. There is no way or reason to keep such a teacher in the Public Service. They should be replaced immediately so that the pupils are taught.

 

Madam Chairperson, we must also familiarise the public with the ACC toll free line so that whistle blowers can communicate their concerns effectively. This will enable us fight corruption. I want to agree with the previous speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkeyema Parliamentary Constituency who said that when whistle blowers bring information of corruption to the fore, we must not laden them with the responsibility of investigating. We should stop that. It is important that the fight is fought effectively, and when people are working, it shows. In Nigeria, for instance, we know how much the ACC works such that everyone sits on the edge knowing well that if anybody engages in corruption, they will be met by the officers. In Zambia, we have just appointed a new Director-General of the ACC. I want to urge the Director-General to ensure that the ACC heightens the fight against corruption so that the money meant for infrastructure development and delivery of service goes to where it should be.

 

Madam Chairperson, when our freedom fighters fought for the independence of this country, they envisaged that within a few years, all our children would have shoes on their feet and eggs and bread for breakfast. They also envisaged that our children will have lunch as well as dinner. This is why they went into the bush to fight. This is why they died. They would not have died if they knew that when taxes are collected, they would end up in someone’s pocket. Therefore, the ACC should assist us in fighting this scourge, but that should not be for the ACC alone. We should all be responsible enough to fight corruption head on. I want to put it on record that as a young man, I was an officer in uniform and worked alongside the ACC. They know that we fought together.

 

I am talking about things that I lived through. We fought together against all forms of crime and we put or necks on the chopping board for the sake of the nation. If we did it then, it can be done now. Nobody should scare those who fight for our people against corruption.

 

Madam Chairperson, criminals and those who intend to steal from our people must know that within our ranks ...

 

The Chairperson: I hate to disturb you, but you know that you have to remove that word.

 

Mr Ngulube: Stealing is unparliamentary!

 

The Chairperson: Yes, unfortunately it is unparliamentary. Use another word.

 

Dr Malama: I withdraw the term ‘stealing’ ..

 

Mr Ngulube: And replace it with?

 

Dr Malama: ... and replace it with what it should be replaced with.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, our people are struggling to survive even as they travel in minibuses to go to work and to look for work. However, when we fight corruption, resources will go where they should be and that will result in job creation. This is why I urge this PF Government, which is a pro-poor Government, to lead this fight because I believe there is no better party than this pro-poor party that can fight this corruption.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Capitalists will not fight corruption.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hammer!

 

Dr Malama: They will think mainly about their pockets, but this pro-poor Government should not sit back when we talk about corruption.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: I expect the fight against corruption to be championed by the people on your right instead of capitalists. When a capitalist is given an opportunity to be in the driver’s seat, he will drive to the bank and focus on profiteering in a bid to make himself rich.

 

Madam Chairperson. I do not expect a pro-poor Government to be the same. The wealth I expect to see in such a Government is what I saw with President Nyerere and President Kaunda. That is the leadership I expect. We want people who will be able to fight corruption.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, I was Inspector General of Police of this country.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: In some countries Inspector Generals are very rich, but all I have to my name is my pen and my shoe.

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Order, former Inspector General of Police.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: You cannot be allowed to debate your economic status. Please continue with your debate.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, I was exposed to money, but I had a desire for a better Zambia. I do not say this in rhetoric. You will not hear of me opening accounts abroad and failing to account for them.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: The poor people of this country ...

 

Mr Ngulube: Us!

 

Dr Malama: ... desire to see a leadership that will fight corruption in more than rhetoric. This pro-poor Government led the able President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili interjected.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, even the consultant for the National Democratic Congress (NDC) should join me in mentioning that we should fight corruption head on.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Corruption starts with me. When I say ‘me’ I also mean you. I urge all hon. Members and all those who are called to leadership, from the presidency to the councillor, to ensure that they fight corruption when they sense it near them.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hammer neighbour!

 

Dr Malama: We have to fight corruption whether it is by our friends or our supporters. We have to fight corruption head on.

 

Madam Chairperson I am not a man ulanda mumaapa, which means I do not look in my armpits when I am talking. I assure the ACC that we will stand with them in the fight against corruption.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: We have to make this country great. Countries like Singapore, Seychelles and South Korea used to lag behind, but look at where they are today. We have to fight corruption.

 

Madam Chairperson, if someone asked me if we are fighting corruption the way that we should be fighting it my answer would be no.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: We should make ourselves the epicentre and ensure that there is no corruption within 200 metres of us. That is the fight against corruption.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: For those who are in the ACC and those who are leadership, the 200 metres should be the whole perimeter of Zambia.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Chairperson, the New Oxford English Dictionary is the world’s most trusted dictionary.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutelo: The Oxford Dictionary of English, Second Edition, revised, defines corruption as dishonest, fraudulent conduct by those in power ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutelo: ... typically involving bribery. There are no two ways about it.

 

Mr Mutelo: Therefore, corruption starts with those in power at that particular moment.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutelo: For now those who are in power are no other than Patriotic Front.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, our colleagues who are …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: In power!

 

Mr Mutelo: …in power …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutelo: …let us stop …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Corruption!

 

Mr Mutelo: … corruption.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lubinda: You are part of Government.

 

Mr Mutelo: I was not there.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Ngulube: Water, water!

 

Mr Mutelo: When one wants to enrich him or herself that is the source of corruption when you bring the vote of the Anti-Corruption Commission like one we are discussing now. To fight those in power, the officers need a lot of muscle, courage and risk to some extent…

 

Mr Syakalima: Yes

 

Mr Mutelo: …without which our country will not develop.

 

Ms Chonya: Yes

Mr Mwiinga: Hammer, hammer!

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, we have wealth and brains, and we equally have a disease known as corruption. Let us heal this disease then we shall distribute our wealth up to the last person in Kanchibiya, Mafinga, Mitete, Mwansabombwe, Ikeleng’i, and Dundumwezi …

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: There is corruption.

 

Mr Chitotela: Chapwa.

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, I am told chapwa, means kunahu…

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Kwamana.

 

Mr Mutelo: ... meaning ngebatu vanevuko,

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mutelo: …ba ivulihenu…

 

Mr Ngulube: Meaning what?

 

Mr Mutelo: Wivwa wivulila samba atelekele mwaneyi…

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mutelo: …meaning listen and listen very carefully. Corruption is a disease…

 

Mr Lubinda: Kwasila!

 

Mr Mutelo: …by those who are in …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Power!

 

Mr Mutelo: …power.

 

Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice and off course support the vote for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). In supporting the vote I wish to say that I am extremely disappointed with the actions and conduct of the ACC in Zambia because the ACC, to me, does not even exist. If it existed…

 

Mr Lusambo: You would have been in prison.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Kambwili: ... the amount of corruption that we are seeing in this administration is unprecedented.

 

Mr Mwiinga: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: It is corruption that even a little child can see in this administration. What are we told at the end of the day, go and bring evidence. What more evidence do you want?

 

Dr Kambwili: Here is a person…

 

Mr Siwale: But tamwapwisha market.

 

Dr Kambwili: … when getting into leadership… Mwaiche uichindike iwe.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Ng’ambi: Ba kweba.

 

Dr Kambwili: You tell this boy because…

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Dr Kambwili!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order, Dr Kambwili, take your seat. Let me just try…

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

 

The hon. Member for Mafinga will not…

 

Mr Ngulube: Will go out.

 

The Chairperson: …pass comments as Dr Kambwili is debating.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: I would advise the hon. Member for Mafinga to desist from engaging Dr Kambwili as he delivers his debate.

 

Dr Kambwili may continue and I am sure that the hon. Member for Mafinga will heed my counsel.

Dr Kambwili, continue.

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, the guilty are afraid.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: I was saying, what more evidence does the ACC want. A person declares that my total asset portfolio is K2.5 million, when you make a declaration as a leader, it means that declaration under oath must be nothing, but the truth. You tell the whole country and the world that I am worth K2.5 million today, one year later, you go and make a declaration that you are worth K23 million. You do not do any business; you never declared that you have any business…

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes

 

Dr Kambwili: … then the ACC says bring… In fact, the same person, who made that declaration, is even saying where is the corruption? Bring evidence. Do not look at the people of Zambia as being foolish. The people of Zambia are more intelligent than you ever think they are…

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chonya: Yes

 

Dr Kambwili: …except that they are very patient and they will wait for the right time to strike. K2.5 million this year, in the following year, one is worth K23 million and you are seen building the entire Lusaka.

 

Ms Chonya: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Then you are telling us that give me evidence.

Ms Tambatamba: Yes!

 

Dr Kambwili: Then you go on a television station without shame and say, I was a good lawyer and you have seen me grow in business.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Michelo: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: You know some of these things are extremely painful for some of us who have worked for our money.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Dr Kambwili: It is extremely painful when we see this person go on a television station and even say, no, I had money. You are the one who told us you are worth K2.5 million. It is not us who told the world that you are worth K2.5 million.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Correct!

 

Dr Kambwili: Then one year later, you are worth K23 million with many buildings all over. Then you tell us, no, I was growing in business. I had some businesses running when we knew the business you had was a tavern and a bar…

 

Laughter

 

Dr Kambwili: …somewhere in a compound.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kambwili: You think people of Zambia are so useless. God is watching you…

 

Ms Tambatamba: Yes!

 

Dr Kambwili: Keep it up.

 

The Chairperson: Dr Kambwili

 

Dr Kambwili: I think by and large…

 

The Chairperson: Dr Kambwili, order, I have some advice to give you.

 

You know when we have an opportunity like this; we must use the opportunity to debate, counsel and advise for the benefit of the nation and not for our personal benefit.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: I see that now the debate is narrowing down to individuals although I am happy that you are not mentioning names.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: I think that the debate must be focused on the ACC, the policy statement that the Vice-President has made including, off course, your own general knowledge of what is wrong with the ACC. So, please, with that counsel, continue with your debate.

 

Dr Kambwili: What I am trying to say is that when people that have been given the responsibility to run the affairs of this country become corrupt and start telling people off, when they are questioned as to how they have acquired wealth within a short period of time, it is very dangerous. It is the job of the ACC to have an interest in matters like this for and on behalf of the people of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, why is it that now everybody who works at State House must be rich within a year and they are even able to go on a television station and say, “What this person is saying is nonsensical. It is rubbish.”

 

Madam Chairperson, arrogance is good when people have the power. It is bad when that power is removed from them because they will remember the people they were insulting. This is the only country where corrupt people are arrogant. Those who are pilfering from the state coffers have even reached an extent of insulting the people of Zambia, who pay their salaries and tax that they are pilfering. They are even saying that what people are saying is nonsensical and rubbish. They are calling others pedestrians. Time for reckoning will come.

 

Madam Chairperson, we know who some of these people are. They are even saying that they can build because they have good jobs. Who, including the Bank of Zambia Governor who gets the highest salary, can build five, six, seven buildings within a year from their salaries? Even a child can see that this is corruption. There is no way, even when one who is in business, can start ten to fifteen projects at the same time. That is blasphemy of the worst kind.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, people must learn to be ashamed of themselves. Where I come from they say, “Insoni, ebuntu.” To have some kind of shame is human. When you know that you are a thief, you must accept that you are a thief and show some remorse. You should not be arrogant.

 

The Chairperson: Order! Withdraw the word, “thief.”

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw that word and replace it with “plunderer.” If someone knows that he is a plunderer or a looter and that he is stealing from the people’s coffers, he should have some shame.

 

Laughter

The Chairperson: Withdraw the word, “steal.”

 

Dr Kambwili: If someone deeps his long hands in the coffers of the people, he must have some shame. This country today, as we speak, is being run by plunderers who have no shame, whatsoever. We will leave it to ACC to take an interest. Let not the ACC be used to settle scores. Let the ACC do the job for which it was established for by an Act of Parliament. What is happening in this country is sad.

 

Madam, surely in 2015, this country was in dire stress in terms of resources. We even had a meeting where we announced that we were cutting down on some costs and yet, some department in the Government goes to buy a fire engine at US$1 million. At that time, a dollar was K14, meaning that they bought one fire tender for K14 million at that time. The ACC is even saying that procedure was followed. Are we talking about procedure or the cost of the fire tenders? Let the ACC not be intimidated by those in authority. They should do their job. Everybody knows about this, including the international community. I had a meeting with some donors and they were so shocked when they heard about the purchase of a fire tender for US$1 million. What is the ACC still doing apart from just going to the media to say things that we cannot even see? We want action. We do not want to be sitting in Parliament with thie …

 

Laughter

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we do not want to be sitting with people who have partaken …

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Order! You have just said that the ACC must do its job but it appears you have already concluded. Continue, Doctor.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, some of us feel ashamed to be rubbing shoulders in this august House with some people who we know have partaken in the issue of the fire tenders. They do not even have shame. They are the ones who speak the loudest.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, anyway, posterity will judge the ACC harshly if they do not take action.

 

Madam Chairperson, as if that was not enough, we are just coming from the issue of fire tenders and somebody stands in this august House to talk about the purchase of ambulances for US$388,000.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Kambwili: Do they think the people of Zambia are so foolish? Those ambulances which the late, Mr Sata bought are the ones that are used in England and America. Did they cost us US$388,000? Somebody is telling us that they are like mobile hospitals. Who told them that Zambians want mobile hospitals? They have failed to finish the hospitals that the late Mr Sata left, which are dotted all over Zambia and they go and do acts of corruption, through purchase ambulances. The ACC, we are waiting. If you do not take action, …

 

The Chairperson: You cannot engage them in that manner.

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, through the Vice-President, if the ACC does not take action against the issue of ambulances, they must prepare themselves to be answerable in future.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lusambo: Talk about the golf course!

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we have seen some chaps who were poppers and today, they are ministers in some provinces buying vehicles worth R1.6 million for cash. What are their salaries? We are watching.

 

Mr Lusambo: Talk about the golf course.

 

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister for Copperbelt Province.

 

Mr Lusambo: Tell us about the golf course!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister for Copperbelt will leave the House and return tomorrow.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Autu!

 

The Chairperson: Order in the House! Dr Kambwili, continue with your debate.

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I know one minister in a province where I come from …

 

The Chairperson: I do not want you to debate the ministers because they are sitting in this House.

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I am not mentioning any names. It is surprising to see the type of vehicles that are parked at some of the individuals’ houses. If we add the total cost of those vehicles, we will find that they spent a lot of money. They even post pictures on facebook. A minister’s salary is plus or minus what we know.

 

The Chairperson: I have just said that you cannot debate the ministers because they are members of this august House and we do not debate ourselves, Dr Kambwili.

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, sorry for your guidance.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we are appropriating a lot of money to the ACC this money should be put to good use. We are not going to allow people who are plundering national resources to continue doing so. These are the ones who are even disturbing this august House by passing derogatory statements when they know that they are dented. 

 

Madam Chairperson, the Economical Intelligence Unit (EIU) has come up with a report and it is in public domain. What is going on with the ACC? What is going on with the people who have been mentioned in EIU?  Why does this Government want to tell us that the ACC will fight corruption in this country? Dr Malama said that he wants to support His Excellency the President. Dr Malama, His Excellency, is not fighting corruption. He is part of the corruption.

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Order, I think I have to curtail your debate because we are not making progress. You are obviously becoming extremely provocative. Take your seat.

 

Dr Kambwili: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this rare opportunity to debate the Vote of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).

 

Madam Chairperson, I will be inclined to support the decisions of the Philippine Parliament which decided to give one Philippine Pesoto the Human Rights Commission (HRC) of Philippines because it was a toothless bull dog. In the same vein, I will not hesitate to say that the ACC has disappointed the people of Zambia …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu:… because it is aiding and abating corruption in this country.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the ACC has been defending people who are corrupt in this country. The people of this country have complained pertaining to a number of corruption allegations and whenever they report matters to the ACC, they are told to bring evidence. All they have to do is to report and it is up to the ACC to investigate further. They are not supposed to be investigators and produce evidence to the ACC. That is the duty of the ACC. If they find that there is no corruption, they will clear that person and that is what we want.

 

Madam Chairperson, we are perplexed with the conduct of the ACC. As hon. Members of Parliament, we debated the issue of the procurement of the fire tenders on the Floor of this august House. The ACC was quick to defend the procurement of the fire tenders and informed the nation that there was no corruption. Why they did that is because they were part and parcel.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … of the selection process pertaining to the procurement of the fire tenders. As my colleague who debated earlier indicated, the problem is that the ACC is part and parcel of the committees pertaining to tendering. How can you investigate a system that you are part of? They must detach themselves from being part and parcel of the procurement tender committees …

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … because that is where the problem starts from.

 

Madam Chairperson, every person in Zambia knows that there is corruption pertaining to the procurement of the fire tenders in this country. We are all aware that those vehicles are not brand new. They are second hand and we are made to understand that they were assembled in Spain.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! True!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Why is the ACC not investigating? That is their duty. We are all aware that the Government of the Republic of Zambia paid US$1 million for the fire tenders, but they insured them for US$250,000.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Why!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: What evidence do you want …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Eeh!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … to show that there is corruption in the procurement of the fire tenders? You know very well that the insurable value of any property does not exceed the price it was bought. The fire tenders have been insured for US$250,000 and this, therefore, entails that their price is US$250,000. Who was pocketed US$750,000 per vehicle?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Who?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: You should know who has done that.

 

Madam Chairperson, …

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Zacharia.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … we are being told that there is political will to fight corruption in this country. However, the budget as pronounced by Her Honour the Vice-President is K85 million. K7 million out of that budget is donor funded entailing that the Government of the Republic of Zambia will only provide K78 million. At the same time, we are aware that the perpetrators of corruption have so much money. The cost of the fire tenders is K420 million and that is K420 billion in the old currency. Can you manage what would happen if you fought powerful people with so much money? There is no way you can fight corruption when those who have money are perpetrating corruption in this country. It is not possible.

 

Madam Chairperson, we were informed on the Floor of this august House that the Government of the Republic of Zambia had given a contract to a foreign company and a local based one and will be making US$12 million profit per year.

 

Mr Livune: Sure!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: In seventeen years, they will make US$200 million profit. ACC, do you not smell corruption in this scheme? Why are you allowing the Government of the Republic of Zambia to be ripped out of its resources with impunity?

 

The Chairperson: You cannot engage the ACC in that manner. Engage them through the Vice-President and, of course, through the Chair.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I am addressing the ACC as an institution which we are debating today. I am not referring to individuals. We are debating the Vote which was merely facilitated by Her Honour the Vice-President because the ACC cannot address us. However, I have taken note of your advice.

 

Your Honour the Vice-President, through your institution, are you not ashamed …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … that this particular institution has …

 

The Chairperson: No!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: You have asked me to address her.

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: You should address the Vice-President, who is representing the ACC, through the Chair. However, you cannot directly ask her if she is not ashamed. You are debating very well so far and I do not want to interrupt your debate.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I take your advice that I should not ask her if she is ashamed. I am ashamed myself …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … because the ACC has shamed us in this country by failing to perform their duties.

 

Madam Chairperson, we are being asked to provide evidence. Some of it relates to a church function in Lusaka where a civil servant, who does not even get that much money in a month, bought a Barcelona t-shirt at K30,000.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: What else do you want?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the ACC Act stipulates that you have to justify …

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

 

 

 

 [THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that one civil servant bought a jersey at K30,000, I am made to understand that it is not actually K30,000, but it is US $5,000.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: More than K50,000.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: It, therefore, entails that this particular jersey was bought at not less than K50,000. The law is very clear, if one individual lives beyond his means, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) has the power to investigate that individual. They have that authority. If someone is living a life style beyond their earnings, they have the power to do that. It is not me or anyone of us to bring out evidence. It is the Anti-Corruption Commission to do it.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other cardinal issue which is making us fail to fight corruption in this country, is the propensity by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government to destroy the independent media. The independent media used to bring out a number of issues pertaining to corruption. Unfortunately, they have made it impossible for the independent media to operate independently and being one of the whistle blowers of corruption.

 

Madam Chairperson, this august House has failed the people of Zambia by failing to pass the Freedom of Information Bill.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes, PF!

 

Hon. Government Member: Question!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: The Freedom of Information Bill would have enabled the members of the public to get information from Government institutions. As a result of the failure to pass this particular legislation, …

Ms Kapata: The Bill of Rights!

 

Mr Lubinda: Remember the Bill of Rights!

 

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I am going to come to that.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the issue I am raising is very cardinal. The officials and government functionaries have always been cushioning themselves behind issues of secrecy, confidentiality pertaining to information that can be obtained from Government institutions. When somebody is found with information that has not been authorised, they are being charged. As a result of that law, we are failing to fight corruption.

I implore, Her Honour the Vice-President, to ensure that the Freedom of Information Bill is brought before this House, if we have political will to fight corruption in this country.

 

Madam, I am also aware that the ACC has been failing its own personnel. A number of director generals have resigned from this particular institution due to political pressure, despite the fact that there is a perceived security of tenure. I cannot mention names, but it is a fact.

 

Ms Kapata: Lay it on the Table!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: It is a fact that they have resigned. I am aware of three director generals who were made to resign. One of them was even fired, when in actual fact the Head of State at the time had no right to fire the director general. The matter went to court. We should be seen to be protecting the officers of this particular institution, if we have to fight corruption.

 

Madam, I do recall that I earlier on I said that I will not support this particular Vote, but I reluctantly support it, hoping that the Anti-Corruption Commission will rise to the occasion and ensure that they effect the mandate that has been given to them by the people of Zambia and by this august House.

 

Madam Chairperson, I do support the Vote.

 

Thank you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Thank you, Madam Chairperson. From the onset, I would like to support the budget estimates for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), with a hope that it is going to perform better than it has done in the previous years.

 

Madam, all things have been said by other colleagues on the Floor of this august House, but I would like to bring to your attention that it seems we only focus on government institutions forgetting that we also have private institutions which are also working with these government institutions doing transactions which lead to corruption.

 

I would like to say that the people working at the Anti-Corruption Commission, should not only focus on investigating an individual or an institution, but they have trace the root of corruption. If, for instance, a minister has been fired due to corruption, I believe there were technocrats who worked with him to get that contract. Now, we start hearing about corruption because that individual is out of office. It is important to know that these technocrats were also involved and had a hand in it. There is no way an individual without support of any other officer would do a corrupt act. Therefore, it is very cardinal that when the ACC is investigating any institution or individual, they must take every step. Whenever there is an announcement of somebody or institution being corrupt, they should find also the other culprits. Two cannot walk together without agreeing. There should be somebody who is also part of that act of corruption.

 

However, today, investigations are all about the Government. What the Auditor-General’s report has said brought out issues, but the truth of the matter is that most of the private institutions are also involved in corruption.

 

For instance, if we look at the manner employees are being recruited, we find that somebody has been employed because of a name and yet we have a lot of graduates who can do the work. It is also corruption.

 

Mr Phiri: Nepotism!

 

Ms Katuta: It is not nepotism. I take it to be corruption, and of course, the money has changed hands.

 

Madam Chairperson, for instance, if you look at the way some adoptions were done in some political parties, there was so much corruption. Money was demanded in order for some people to be adopted. It is corruption. It starts from there. It means that if those are put in public offices they will continue with that practice because they have gotten used to giving money to get where they want to be.

 

These are the things that the Anti-Corruption Commission should look at. They should not only focus on this or that minister. Yes, we understand that the President announced that he is not going to spare corrupt ministers, but to my surprise, there is only one who has fallen. What about others? There should be others who have also been involved in this act of corruption for him to make such a statement. He knows, that is why he said ministers and not a minister.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: The nation is still waiting. They say he is a man who walks the talk. We want to see more of these hon. Ministers out on moral grounds. A lot of things are happening in this administration. They have to be scrutinised. How are they doing things in these public offices? If there is an outcry from the nation, the Government should listen, take keen interest and take action through the Anti-Corruptions Commission (ACC).

 

Mr Mung’andu: Question!

 

Ms Katuta: Madam, the ACC should not wake up and say they are reopening a case when there is uproar from the general public, after it has been established that a particular transaction was cleared by the ACC. It is not a sign of seriousness. It would look like they want to impress or appease somebody. It is about time this particular institution regained its respect, and this can only be achieved if we start seeing prosecutions.

 

Madam Chairperson, when I was coming to this august House, I heard Her Honour the Vice-President saying that only sixteen cases of prosecution and convictions were recorded. How could that be true with the corruption cases that we hear about in this country? We can only tell that the country is corrupt because about 85 per cent of its people still live in abject poverty and yet, the nation is endowed with natural resources

 

Mr Musonda: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Madam, a country, which I do not want to mention, has oil, gold and diamond, but the people in that country also live in abject poverty. There is nothing happening in that particular country apart from the mismanagement of resources, which is corruption. There are no two ways about it. This is what is also happening in Zambia because we have natural resources.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the awarding of contracts. This issue should be looked into seriously. Yes, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) has it its own guidelines, but I would like to mention that I was once a senior buyer for Kabwe Municipal Council. Therefore, I know how things happen. Officers did not like me at that council because each time they told me to do this or that, I would say no. It is for this reasons I am saying that the officers are equally culprits. They should also be taken on with everyone involved. Otherwise, even if the top officers are removed, these guys will still be working and they will continue doing what they have been doing.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

The word ‘guys’ is not permitted in this House.

 

Ms Katuta: Madam Chairperson, let me substitute it with personnel. Therefore, for us to regain the popularity as a Christian nation, we should be seen to be practicing zero tolerance to corruption.

 

Madam, I would like to urge the new Director-General to be firm. For example, Thuli Madonsela was a public protector in South Africa and she left a legacy and the integrity that today, everyone is talking about her. One would admire to just shake hands with her. We should be like her. Let us do it for the nation and not for an individual or a party. Let us go out there and fish out the culprits.

 

Madam, the recruitment process in the public institutions like the Zambia National Service (ZNS) or Zambia Air Force (ZAF) is not done on merit. Recently, we had the recruitment of teachers.  I want to say that it was shameful to see people who live in a certain local area, who are graduates and have been waiting for years for the Government to employ them were left out. Instead, the Government decided to pick someone from Eastern Province to go and work in Chienge. What is happening? Do they mean these people do not qualify? They do. What is happening? That is also corruption. It is possible to tell that something has happened because this is not even a human error. These are some of the things that I wanted to talk about.

 

Madam, in conclusion, I want to say that even private institutions should be checked. The transactions that are happening in the banks and other companies should also be monitored. The ACC should not wait, but work the way the intelligence office works. Their eyes should always try to find out what is happening in those institutions. They should not wait for someone to report. In Zambia, people are afraid of victimisation. For instance, if I go to report that someone has been involved in a corrupt transaction, they would victimise me instead of the corrupt person. They should also have eyes and ensure that they monitor what is going on in the private institutions. We have seen people, who have changed overnight.  I know that we are not supposed to debate ourselves, but we know those who went into the campaign trial with nothing, but in just after a year, they have become rich. Those are things the ACC must take interest and get involved in.

 

With these few words, I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Ministry of Higher Education (Prof. Luo): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on the Floor.

 

Madam, the voices that are going through across the country, especially from Parliament-people take a lot interest to listen to Parliament and our debates. It is unfortunate that it is not only here because some of the individuals who debated on this vote this morning have been known to go into town to give an accusing voice that hon. Ministers are corrupt and His Excellency, the President of this Country is corrupt. Since, they are being asked to provide evidence, they say that the evidence is there. When one is asked to provide evidence, it is not just about what one heard, or what one has read, it is being able to justify that the accusing hand someone has been given indeed this accused person presided.

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish Hon. Chishimba Kambwili in the House. I hope is listening to me because he is a former hon. Minister of Government. For instance, I have served three presidents and I am on my sixth ministry, now.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Therefore, I do not know of any hon. Minister in any Government who sits and receives finances from the Ministry of Finance. This is why the Permanent Secretary (PS) is called a controlling officer. In fact, it is him/she, who knows the amount of money that is coming into the ministry. My role regarding the budget of my ministry ends today or tomorrow when I defend the budget of the Ministry of Higher Education.

 

Madam, many a time, hon. Ministers do not even know when money comes into the ministry or when it finishes, but only told by the PS that hon. Minister this activity cannot be carried out because the ministry does not have money. It is, therefore, not my role as a hon. Minister to be interested in the monies that are coming into the ministry.

 

Mr Kamboni interjected.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam, secondly, There is no hon. Minister that I know of ever sits on a procurement committee. In fact, when as hon. Minister you ask why things are delayed, they are told, that whey will remain and the hon. Minister will go. There do not touché these things because there are preserve. Therefore, it is unfortunate for anybody, who has sat in the ministerial office to come and come and accuse other hon. Ministers of corruption.

 

Madam, some people have continued to blame certain people of corruption in this country. Let me share with the House what this whole thing has caused this country. I was listening to the definition of corruption that it is about those in power. I wish they had gone ahead the read the definition of power because someone can be in power as head of an institution.  Therefore, to be in power does not only mean to be in power in Government office because one can be in power of an institution.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Madam, the real corrupt individuals have been celebrating because instead of being objective in addressing corruption so that all the areas that we need to deal can be dealt with, these people have the desire to settle old scores. They come to this august House and abuse it to settle the old scores. I think that is not right.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, I would like to give an example of my own ministry. When I was appointed as hon. Minister, there was a debate in this august House about the Ministry of Higher Education. There were allegations that the ministry was corrupt because there were people who were giving scholarships illegally. I took an interest to investigate this particular issue. I want to tell you that when we investigated, we found that there were some students who just took advantage of their friends. Since people hear that the only corrupt people are hon. Ministers, they took advantage of the first years as they were coming and told them that they knew people who could give the victims scholarships and collected a lot of money.

 

The perpetrators of this scam collected over K300,000, but they had no contact in the ministry. Today the people behind that have been arrested. That does not mean that the Ministry of Higher Education or hon. Minister is corrupt. People are now using the situation that we have created in this country to their advantage and start claiming to have contacts that they do not. Two boys were arrested regarding that issue. They were just doing it out of their own accord and whatever money they collected was theirs.

 

Therefore, this is what we are stating here. As leaders of this country, using opposition politics is very dangerous. Just because they are sitting on that other side of the House, it does not make them clean. I can tell you that if you are a hon. Member of Parliament or hon. Minister, it does not mean that you are corrupt just because you hold that position. In fact, the people that are corrupt are not even known.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Prof. Luo: What we should be telling the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) is to step up its efforts and follow-up on issues that are being raised. Some of the leaders of the people who are saying no are on record to have been doing questionable things which have made them wealthy. If we really followed up on corruption, we would find that they are corrupt.

 

Interruptions

 

Prof. Luo: Therefore, certain people should not come to this august House to champion things just for the sake of demeaning their colleagues.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Go and arrest them!

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, I think that in Zambia we are our own enemies. However, we need to know that we are not going to usurp power by maligning other people. We should wait for the elections in 2021 and let the best man or woman win. This august House is not going to make us win elections because even as some people are saying, Zambians are watching. Zambians are also listening to them. The Zambian people know exactly what is going on. I do not know of anybody on this side of the House who has put money off shore to evade tax.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: That revelation is in public domain. If that is not corruption, then I do not know what we are talking about because we are all supposed to pay taxes to our country. Immediately we start acting like that, especially those of us who are seeking leadership, then we are in trouble.

 

Madam Chairperson, I know of certain people that have been given contracts on which they never delivered. We should be asking what happened to the markets in Mwense and Nakonde, but we come here and become champions of false allegations of corruption.

 

Interruptions

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, as I sat here listening to previous debates, I felt very sorry for ourselves because we are our own enemies. If some of you think that you can come here and abuse the privileges that we have in this House to settle scores, I am afraid you are just putting yourselves in the doldrums. When the elections come, you will all have to account for what you do because even some of you who …

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: No, hon. Minister. No one in this august House should be debated. You are doing well so far, but desist from debating your colleagues and referring to them as you are doing. Continue hon. Minister.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, one of the things that we need to learn as Zambians is to refrain from creating wrong perceptions because they are very bad. I would have loved to give an example, but because you have guided me, I will not. Sometimes we do certain things because we think we are punishing others, but you will find that you are the first victim of it. I think we need to stop it now because it is not helping us. There are people who have spent all their lives building their names. The fact that they have given time to give a service to the country should not be something that we should take advantage of and start maligning people. It is not nice.

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: We must remember that life is not the same all the time. I know some parties will never come to this side of the House, but should that accident happen …

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: … and they find themselves on this side of the House, they will be very sorry if we start debating in the manner some of them debate. I do not understand why some people debate without reading or giving any evidence, but just come here and rant all over. Some of us can also be very aggressive and can actually raise issues because we know what some of those on your left are capable of doing.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to support this Vote and encourage the ACC to do its job diligently. The commission should never follow perceptions that have been created by disgruntled political leaders who have never won elections. They just want to use this platform through their hon. Members of Parliament to start maligning others. They should leave us alone so that we deliver to this country diligently.

 

With these very few remarks, I want to conclude by saying this is not a home or House for settling old scores. This august House is for providing leadership to the people of Zambia. This august House should provide leadership to the institutions that we have given mandates in governing this country.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Ema professor aya!

 

The Minister of Defence (Mr Chama): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this important Vote for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). The ACC is a very important institution in safeguarding the meagre resources of our nation. First of all, I want to start by reacting to the hon. Member who defined leadership from the Oxford dictionary third edition. Like the professor has correctly put it, leadership is also for those in opposition.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: Hon. Members who are elected on both sides of the House are part of the leadership of this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have heard of people who personally benefitted from the privatisation of the mines in this country. They made their money and some of them were involved in acts of corruption of collusion. These people are well known.

 

Mr Belemu: Take them to court!

 

Mr Chama: The Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) must be proactive to make sure they follow these people so that they are brought to book. The ACC cannot function without the help of the Zambian people because it cannot operate in isolation. Without the support of the Zambian people, the ACC cannot function. All of us as Zambians, in our individual capacity and collectively, should help the ACC fight this scourge.

 

Madam Chairperson, what I hear on the Floor of the House sometimes makes me very, very sad. Some people have accused His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia of corruption. They have also accused the Government of corruption. I can testify that the President is not a corrupt person as insinuated by some people on the Floor of this House. The projection of someone’s character could be a psychiatric symptom.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: I want to repeat that the projection of somebody’s character can be a psychiatric symptom.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: Or subdued personality disorder.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: At times, people ...

 

Mr Belemu: You are debating yourself.

 

Mr Chama: I urge the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) not to be intimidated by people who talk too much. Actually, the first sign that someone is guilty of something is talking too much or accusing somebody else about something.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: The Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) should not be deterred. They should not be intimidated. They must make sure that the people who shout the loudest - even on issues of tribalism, when you hear people talk about tribalism frequently, know that they are tribalists.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: And that is corruption.

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, characterisation of those in leadership as corrupt is very unfortunate. I reiterate that there is no law in our land that prevents the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) from investigating any person, hon. Ministers included. The ACC does not even need permission from the President to investigate any hon. Minister for acts of corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: Once the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) has investigated an hon. Minister or raised a flag that a particular hon. Minister is corrupt or is being accused of corruption, that hon. Minister is dropped by the President. I repeat: The ACC has the power to investigate any hon. Minister, hon. Member of Parliament or anyone in leadership. Once they raise a flag that a particular hon. Minister is corrupt, the President acts, and the President has acted.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: I was not in this House in the past, but I am aware that a certain provision of the law concerning the abuse of office was removed from our statutes. It was only the Patriotic Front (PF) Government that reinstated the provision of the abuse of office by those in authority.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: That is a sign of commitment by the PF Government to fight this scourge.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, I am saddened that those who are building houses are being accused of being corrupt. It is easy to build a house because a pocket of cement is about K60 or K62. The price of a block is in the range of K4 to K5. If you have K1,000, you will be able to buy 250 blocks. If you have K4,000, you will be able to buy 1,000 blocks. If you use your money prudently and not spend it on drinking, you can build a house. Your friends build houses by buying 1,000 blocks a month.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: The Zambian people have answered the call to transform this country. Therefore, they are building all over. It is not a sign that they are corrupt. Those who are corrupt shout the loudest.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: If you accuse someone of corruption, provide evidence. Come forward and produce the evidence because you have the facts. Provide the evidence to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) so that they can act on that person. Please, do not characterise Zambians or hon. Ministers who are building as being corrupt because they are prudent in their utilisation of the meagre resources they earn whereas some of you or other Zambians maybe spending most of their time drinking. Others are spending most of their time at their plots building. They are investing.

 

Madam Chairperson, I know where some people who served as hon. Ministers and have been fired are coming from, and what they had when we formed Government in 2011. Some of them were being kept by their wives in England.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, you cannot go there.

 

Hon. Minister, not that route.

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, the point is that some of them had nothing. Some of them had completely nothing.

 

The Chairperson: I have just guided you.

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, I will not refer to their names.

 

I encourage the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) not to be deterred, scared or intimidated by anybody regardless of how much they talk or how loud they talk because talking too much or too loud is a sign of trying to cover up what they have done.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, the rule of law is very cardinal in any nation. We cannot run the State without following the law. I have heard insinuations that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has tried to suppress the press. The Government cannot allow individuals not to pay taxes and go scot-free. I have not heard of any developed country, whether in America or Europe that does not prosecute people who do not pay taxes. Whether you are a film star, football star or a star in politics, if you evade tax, you go to jail immediately.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chama: If you do not pay tax because you own a ka small newspaper, do not say that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is trying to suppress freedom of the press when we try to prosecute you. That is not on. Such people must be followed to make sure they pay what they owe the Zambian people.

 

Mr Sing’ombe stood up to go out of the Chamber.

 

Mr Lubinda: Do not go iwe!

                         

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, keeping money in tax havens, ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Zambian money!

 

Mr Chama: ... pensioners’ money. A particular person took the money of the people who have laboured, contributed to the development of this country and paid money into their pension funds, and put it in tax havens. People who put money in tax havens are drug barons or corrupt because they hide the money there.

 

I urge the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to follow those people to make sure they are bought to book without fear or favour. No one must be exempted. The ACC must not fear anybody, whether they run a ka small Opposition political party or any political party. They must not be feared. They must be followed so that they are brought to book because the rule of law is very, very important for the development of our country. A country where people do not follow the rule of law will degenerate into disorder and can become a failed state.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to encourage the ACC and say to the new Director-General that you are the new man on the job and so, you should assist His Excellency, the President and this Government to make sure all criminals who are trying to hide money and involving themselves in acts of corruption are traced. As Director-General, you must assist the Government to make sure it mops up all the money for the development of our beloved country.

 

Madam Chairperson, corruption is a cancer, and it must not be tolerated at any given time. The PF Government, through President Edgar Chagwa Lungu, is determined to root out this scourge of corruption.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank all the people who debated this Vote for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). With all the different definitions of corruption that the House heard, I wish to reiterate that the Government, through the ACC will focus in the areas of enforcement, administrative corruptive reforms, intensify public awareness programmes, research and monitoring and evaluation. To undertake this, the ACC will look at the enhancement of investigations and court operations. This will address everything that has been brought out in the Auditor-General’s report. It is a myth to believe that the ACC is not prosecuting or investigating high profile cases. The House may wish to note that at the moment, the ACC has picked up twenty cases which are under investigations and fall within its mandate. After investigations, and if there is evidence of corruption, the matters will be forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) for consent to prosecute.

 

Madam Chairperson, most of the cases highlighted in the Auditor-General’s Report are of administrative nature and involve unretired imprest, misapplication of funds and unvouchered expenditure. These are being actively followed up and the establishment and strengthening of co-operation with other key strategic domestic institutions will be able to address this. This is working closely with the Auditor-General’s office, the Financial Intelligence Centre, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) and the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA).

 

Madam Chairperson, in terms of procurement, the House may wish to know that the ACC has not been sitting on the Tender Committee since 2015, after the realisation of the conflict of interest. Initially, the idea was that ACC sitting on this Tender Committee would police the process and raise the red flag if the procedure was flouted. However, they do not sit on the Tender Committee and this has been the case since the PF Government came into power.

 

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of fire tenders and ambulances, the ACC has initialised a corruption prevention exercise to determine value for money. Unfortunately, the Government may, in the future, look to procuring equipment and other things directly because it has no control over the profits that the suppliers will make. To address this through the Smart Zambia Initiative, there will be data capture to determine market prices so that as people are tendering for these services, the prices are within the market range and there is no ripping off of the Government, so to speak.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, I wish to thank all those who have debated this Vote and also reiterate the fact that this corruption scourge must be fought beginning with us leaders in this august House and everyone else. Members of the public must also play their role and assist in this fight. Once again, there are initiatives for the protection of whistle blowers and the insistence that there is evidence is to ensure that when these cases are brought before the courts of law, there is proof beyond reasonable doubt so that the culprits are brought to book.

 

With these few words, I beg to move.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 87/01 – (Anti-Corruption Commission – Headquarters – K85,048,710).

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 95 – Tours – Commissioners – K274,000. The allocation for 2017 was K200,000. Is that money enough?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4013, Activity 95 – Tours – Commissioners – K274,000 is meant to carter for the cost of inspection tours by the board of commissioners to acquaint themselves with the operations and challenges of provincial offices. The tours also include reciprocal change, exchange visits to other ACC offices in other jurisdictions with similar mandates to the Commission. The increase in the allocation is because of covering the estimated costs of reaching the offices that are planned to be visited in 2018, under a rotational programme. Therefore, the allocation is sufficient.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4046, Activity 021 – Public Sensitisation Programme - K292,420. This activity has been degraded in terms of allocation of funds from K657,140 to K292,420. This is a decrease of more than 100 per cent. Considering this is one of the tools which is supposed to be used by the ACC to sensitise and ensure that people are aware of corruption, I would like to find out whether this reduction is due to donor fatigue. This activity is only sponsored by donors. Why has the Government not put in counterpart funds to complement the donor allocation so that it is equivalent to what was granted last year?

 

The Chairperson: Mr Lufuma, are you asking why there is a reduction?

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, absolutely.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, I am not sure I got the activity he was seeking clarification on.

 

The Chairperson: It is Programme 4046, Activity 021 – Public Sensitisation Programmes.

 

The Chairperson: It is Programme 4046 – Community Education, Activity 021 – Public Sensitisation Programmes, page 1257.

 

Mrs Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, the reduction in the allocation for 2018, is as a result of the 2017 allocation having included training of civic education to teachers on anti-corruption, the content of which was revised to school syllabus and that has not been included in 2018.

Vote 87/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 68 – (Ministry of Tourism and Arts – K303,669,870)

 

The Minister of Tourism and Arts (Mr C. Banda): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to render the 2018 Budget policy statement for the ministry to this august House.

 

Madam Chairperson, I consider this to be a very important occasion in this sitting of Parliament because this is the time when we as the people’s representatives prepare the actualisation of policy direction through the process of estimating expenditure for both operational and developmental plans for the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Tourism and Arts has a total Budget Estimate of K303,669,870 for 2018 representing a 24 per cent increase over the K245,009,212 for the year ending 2017. The increase in the Budget for 2018 will help the ministry carryout some of the desired activities which will help us in the repositioning of the tourism sector at local, regional and international levels.

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia has in 2017, ranked the tourism sector second after agriculture out of the four key pillars for achieving economic diversification and job creation for our people. Zambia has immense tourism resources, including nature based, cultural based, heritage and adventure tourism resources. This rich endowment of tourism resources needs to be marketed locally and internationally so that Zambia will be known to be a unique destination which many tourists will add to their must see destinations. As it has been observed by this august House previously, Zambia as a destination has been under marketed in comparison to our neighbouring countries due to insufficient funding of the tourism marketing function. Consequently, this has diminished our capacity to take full advantage of our stated policy direction of boosting tourism, thus further hampering the economic results which the tourism sector generates for the Zambian people.

 

Madam Chairperson, the PF Government, under the leadership of His Excellency President Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has now decided to take the necessary steps to arrest this negative picture and has for 2018, increased the marketing budget in Yellow Book from K6.7 million to K15.7 million for 2018. In addition to this budgetary allocation, the ministry has taken steps to supplement the budget allocation for tourism marketing and other key areas of tourism infrastructure development, product development, training and research through the tourism development funds.

 

Madam Chairperson, in March this year, the ministry, after a long period of consultation with stakeholders, launched the Tourism Development Fund which is expected to mitigate the current adverse position of tourism marketing funding. The intention of the ministry is to implement, through the Zambia Tourism Agency (ZTA), marketing strategies that are effective and efficient to promote the country’s tourism product offerings to both the local and international tourists. In order to achieve this, the ZTA developed a strategic plan for the period 2017 to 2021, to guide, among others, the tourism marketing initiatives. All planned marketing initiatives will be drawn from this planning document.

 

Madam Chairperson, the 2018 marketing plan for the ZTA, stems from the 2017/2021 Strategic Plan whose overarching long-term marketing objectives are to:

 

1. increase international tourist arrivals from the current 966,696 to 1.5 million by 2021; and

 

1. achieve 25 per cent increase in domestic arrivals at heritage sites and national parks by 2021.

 

Stemming from the marketing objectives in the 2017/2021 Strategic Plan, the 2018 marketing objectives are to increase international tourist arrivals and attain the 18 per cent increase in domestic arrivals at heritage sites.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to achieve the set objectives, marketing resources will be applied in a focused manner to attract arrivals from the key traditional source markets of the United Kingdom (UK) the European Union (EU) and the United States of America (USA). Selected emerging markets such as India and China will also be targeted.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to dwell a little bit on the tourism value chain. The tourism value chain is the sequence of primary and support activities which are strategically fundamental for the performance of the tourism sector. Linked processes such as policy making, integrated planning, product development and packaging, promotion and marketing, distribution, sales, destination operations and services are the key primary activities of the tourism value chain.

 

Madam Chairperson, the tourism value chain exists within tourism which has three distinct regions being tourist origin, transit and destination. The roles of major players in the tourism value chain include transportation, accommodation, food and beverages, handcrafts, tourism assets in destination, leisure, excursions and tours and other support services. Other support facilities required include tourism related infrastructure, human resource, technology and other complimentary goods and services which may not be related to core tourism businesses, but have a high impact on the value of tourism.

 

Madam Chairperson, the value chain guarantees multiple effects that cut across the entire spectrum of the economy, thus contributing both directly and indirectly to the nation’s economic development. It is because of the tourism value chain that tourism’s capacity to distribute wealth, reduce poverty, create jobs and advance the change towards more sustainable consumption and production parties has been recognised. A comprehensively developed tourism value chain system will certainly contribute to the achievement of various economic benefits. Any missing link in the value chain will deter the achievement of these benefits.

 

Madam Chairperson, in my policy statement last year, I informed this august House of the introduction of the Tourism Levy which is part of the sources of the Tourism Development Fund. I am happy to report to the House that following the finalisation of the levy modalities during the first quarter of this year, the Tourism Levy was introduced on 1^st March, 2017 and has performed very well so far. By the end of September, 2017, K9.1 million was collected from the accommodation establishments in the tourism and hospitality industry. I therefore, wish to take this opportunity to thank all the operators that have heeded to this noble cause.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to give some highlights on the focus on the ministry in 2018. In line with the provision of the Tourism and Hospitality Act No.13 of 2015, the Tourism Development Fund is supposed to be applied on tourism product development, tourism infrastructure, tourism marketing, tourism training and research among others. To enhance the effectiveness of the initial funding, the ministry through the Tourism Development Fund Committee has placed more emphasis on tourism marketing and promotion. To this end, there are two major events that the ministry facilitated using the proceeds from the Tourism Development Fund.

 

Commemoration of the 2017 International Year for Sustainable Tourism for Development

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry hosted three key events to commemorate the declaration of the 2017 International Year of Sustainable Tourism for Development from 16^th to 18 November, 2017, in Mfuwe and Lusaka respectively. This was in line with Zambia’s mandate to being the first vice chair currently, and the incoming chair in 2019 for the Executive Council of the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO). As a member state, we have the responsibility to participate in the promotion of sustainable tourism that supports balanced development in line with Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). The design of this three day event was meant to make Zambia more visible on the international market and consequently increasing tourist arrivals in the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, hon. Members may wish to note that this attracted participants from other countries in the region and beyond. The events started with the declaration of South Luangwa National Park as a sustainable park and were followed by a one day conference on the 17^th November, 2017 and concluded on 18^th November, 2017, with the Pamodzi Carnival. The President of the Republic of Zambia, his Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, together with the UNWTO Secretary General, Dr Taled Rifai, officiated at this international conference.

 

Zambia as a Cultural Partner for the International Tourism Base (ITB).

 

Madam Chairperson, following the ministry’s participation of the ITB in Berlin, Germany, in March this year, an agreement was sealed with the ITB Committee, for Zambia to be the ITB Convention and Cultural Partner in 2018. Hon. Members may wish to note that ITB is one of the world’s largest tourism trade shows where renowned tour companies clinch deals with operators in key destinations. Zambia stands to benefit from media advertising with over €400,000 including extra exhibition space which will ultimately add to the country’s visibility through cultural performances during the opening ceremony. Other benefits of being a convention and cultural partner include online postings with pictures on the ITB website, facebook page and twitter profile. Funds to support these events have been sourced from the Tourism Development Fund (TDF) and the ministry’s budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am pleased to emphasise that in the 2018 Budget, the funds allocated to the marketing and promotion have been increased from K6.7 million in 2017, to K15.7 million in 2018. The budget for next year has included some money through which we are going to have a recruitment of wildlife police officers who are going to help us to police our national parks in order to conserve and protect our wildlife. My ministry through the Zambia Tourism Agency will also work hard to direct these resources to cost effective programmes and activities that will yield more results as we continue to marketing the country to key source markets using various marketing platforms that include print, electronic and social media.

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to conclude my debate by urging hon. Members of the House to support the budget estimates for the ministry.

 

I thank you

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to debate. By the favour of this august House I am also the Chairperson for the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism. Therefore, it is in my general interest that this sector flourishes.

 

Mr Michelo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Belemu: Madam Chairperson, it is an agreed and settled position that this sector is important for economic development of this nation. It is also a good sector for purposes of diversifying Zambia’s economy. However, we are concerned with the pace at which we are moving in realising a true position of prioritising a sector. I want to cite a few issues that are of interest which I think that the hon. Minister would probably take into consideration. In the legislative and policy environment, we need to accelerate to arrive at consolidated policy in the sector and subsectors under the ministry. It is a general concern because the updating policies and laws; seem to be taking too long. Now that this sector has been prioritised, it is only correct that measures are taken to ensure that these processes are accelerated. These are things that are within our control and we can achieve them ourselves without probably external help or with very minimal resources.

 

The second area of concern, Madam Chairperson, within the policy regime is that as the hon. Minister is aware, his colleague, the hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries, has issued a fishing ban. Now, when you put it in the context of tourism, for example, in the case of lower Zambezi, there is sport fishing where people catch fish and throw it back in the river. That affects tourism ultimately when you do a total ban on fishing. Is it not possible to come up with Statutory Instruments (SIs) that are selective to specific types of fishing? We all agree that net fishing depletes our water bodies of fish but we are talking about line fishing which is meant for sport. If this is not corrected, operators in the lower Zambezi are going to lose not less than US$1 million income. Bearing in mind that people who come to this country make their travel arrangements and programmes much earlier, are you going to blame the tourists for planning to go to our competitor, in Zimbabwe which is much easier because Zimbabwe does not dohat we do on the Zambian side. I think we need to review that fishing ban as a matter of urgency. That is my proposal that line and sport fishing must continue during all periods. I have not had the site of the specific wording of the fishing ban. If it bans fishing and sport fishing, as it has done in the past, I think we need to review that position.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other point in the policy and legal regime is the issue of the master plan. I think that matter has been discussed over the years. We are looking forward to have the master plan and let it be distributed to the stakeholders so that they are satisfied. If I want to be an investor in the sector, I want to know exactly the direction of the country in the sector. The hon. Minister, made reference to the Tourism Levy collected by Zambia Tourism Authority (ZTA). Would it not function better, that fee when collected is not deposited in control ninety-nine which is a Central Government Account, where that some money is retained in advance of spending, but surrendered to the central account by ZTA for the purposes of administering this fee and also for achieving what the hon. Minister said, bearing in mind that there is time for the value of money.

 

If money that is collected is not accessible for them to undertake the activities, then it is unfortunate. We know what happens when money goes into a central Treasury Account. This is a matter of policy and the ministry needs to liaise with the Ministry of Finance so that the money that is intended to develop this sector remains within the ministry before it is surrendered to the general Government account.

 

Madam Chairperson, the cost structure of the tourism sector must be a matter of concern. The cost structure of this sector needs to be seriously reviewed. The taxation in the tourism sector is a bit higher than that of other economic sectors. In some instances, there is so much duplication of the tax in this sector. For example, we have the training levy in the ministry responsible for education and the Ministry of Tourism and Arts. There is a tourism levy whose component is supposed to be for training within the sector but operators into this sector are made to pay both the one that goes to the ministry responsible for education and ultimately, the one that comes to the Ministry of Tourism and Arts. Does that not amount to double taxation within the sector?

 

Madam Chairperson, the fees that are charged by the local authorities under this ministry are making it fail to thrive or not considered as a priority. People think that when a sector is prioritised, then all the bottlenecks and hindrances are dealt with. Mostly, these are things such as the review of policies and laws, which are under our control. The hon. Minister needs to relook at this issue.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the wildlife sub-sector, I wish to urge the minister to review the operations of the hunting concession holders. In some cases, I think the hunting concession holders have become a hindrance, particularly, to the people who we give hunting licenses. Let us look at what we can do in that particular area because these hunting concession holders have become a hindrance to the growth of the sector. We are aware that some of them are doing things that are contrary to the original hunting concessions that they hold. We need to put in place monitoring and evaluation mechanisms that will ensure that we are on the correct path. The hunting concession holders must operate in accordance with the terms and conditions of the concession agreements. They seem to have so much arbitrary powers which they are using to disadvantage the communities. The communities are not reaping anything from this.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the Game Management Areas (GMAs). Some of the agencies of the Government have continued to settle people in the GMAs. For example, we have the situation in the Sichifulo GMA. Some of the people who go to stay in the GMAs are public service workers. The principles of GMAs are there, but we need to leave the local people to settle in those areas instead of allowing people from urban areas to get big chunks of land in the GMAs.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the policy statement, I would have loved to hear the hon. Minister mention the position of the Government on the ivory industry/elephant hunting. We know that America has accepted any elephant products from Zambia and Zimbabwe as long as they have been lawfully harvested. I am raising this issue with regards to the deaths that we have witnessed in Livingstone. What is the position of the Government over this issue? Has the Government taken advantage of that idea or not? I think that decision is important to this country. Everyone must be clear in what we should look for in the wildlife sub-sector regarding the ivory products.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has made reference to the increase in the tourism allocation. I want to submit to the hon. Minister that the money that has been allocated to this sector is not enough. In the past, to place an advertisement for a sport for two to three weeks on widely known media channels such as the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) or the Cable News Network (CNN), would cost not less than US$250,000. If we convert the K15 million that we have put in the Budget into dollars, we would just literally pay for advertisements that would only run for only a month and the money would have been exhausted. 

 

Madam Chairperson, let us make sure that most of the money that is being collected in this sector goes to marketing tourism. If we go into tourism marketing, we will also be marketing Zambia in general. Zambia keeps channeling money into this sector, but it is still the lowest in the region in as far as tourism is concerned. How can smaller countries such as Namibia and Malawi be surpassing us in terms of what we are spending on tourism? There is correlation between what we get in terms of the end product of tourism and the marketing of tourism. If we keep talking about prioritising this sector and we allocate less money to it, we will be wasting our time.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of …

 

Hon. Government Member: Tourism and Arts!

 

Mr Belemu: …Tourism and Arts.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Belemu: You do not need to tell me what to say. I am well schooled in English.

 

Madam Chairperson, we need to relook at the total contribution of the national environment in terms of tourism. Tourism is an experience and we get concerned when matters concerning tourism are coming from the political bracket. The language that we get and the things we say are or not happening in the country amount to what people experience.

Madam Chairperson, I want to conclude by making reference to the relationship we have with our competitors in the region. We need to be more aggressive in our negotiations that we have with our colleagues, particularly, in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region. For example, if one country says that there is yellow fever in Zambia that can discourage tourists from coming to Zambia. We should ensure that the collaboration at that level is expedited and strengthened.

 

Madam Chairperson, we must also make sure that the KAZA Visa works. If it does not work in favour of Zambia, why not go back and review it? Currently, with the revisions which are going on in Zimbabwe, Zambia might be seriously disadvantaged. If there is need for review, we should not be shy about it. It is a matter of fact that Zimbabwe had advanced tourism development products. Zambia is still struggling. Zimbabwe will soon be our competitor because we market similar products. If we are going to delay even after what has happened in Zimbabwe, I am afraid we are going lag behind. In Zimbabwe, the marketing stage was still good even after going through the hard times. Zimbabwe’s international image in terms of tourism development and training was still good.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to remind the hon. Minister to actualise the tourism training as provided for in the current law. In the coming year, we will be looking forward to seeing that the diplomas and degrees are achieved. This will make that institution which was created by an Act of Parliament to thrive. This will make sure that our tourism training in terms of graduates is competitive in the region. Right now, we still have serious problems when it comes to service delivery in the nation. Our levels of service delivery are low and we cannot keep talking about prioritising a sector if we cannot deliver services.

 

Madam Chairperson, tourism is about experience. Those are things which are within our control as a country. We cannot continue to pay lip service to potentially viable economic sectors and sub-sectors therein. For example, what are we doing in actualising the Northern Circuit and other products within the tourism sector? I think we need those things to come out. What are we doing in product development?  The world is changing. What we know about Zambia is probably three quarters of what others know. Before someone travels to a place, he will research about the place where he is going. People check about the levels and capacities of the areas they are going to visit. Therefore, if someone is coming to Zambia, he will want to know the level of service delivery that we have in Zambia. He will also want to know our level of training and what sort of graduates we have. We can only do ourselves a favour if things that are within our control such as training are exonerated professionally.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to support the appropriation for the Ministry of Tourism and Arts.

 

Madam Chairperson, this is a very important ministry because like the Ministry of Agriculture, it represents the anchor of economic diversification. This policy is being clearly driven by His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, because he wants the economy to be diversified. I think diversification as a policy of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government needs to be clearly explained so that the Zambian people can know why their President is concerned about it.

 

Madam Chairperson, diversification focuses mainly on economic risk management and wealth creation and because of these two reasons, the President wants our economy to be diversified. The fact that he wants the diversification process to be anchored on agriculture and tourism clearly shows that he sees things differently. While he is focusing on development, others are focusing on being vindicated for the advice they gave.They advised the Government to borrow from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) instead of elsewhere and when they heard rumors that it is having challenges, they say they are vindicated. What vindication are they talking about?

 

Mr Mung’andu: Shame!

 

Mr Kafwaya: Promoting the very thing that you are against is the vindication that people talk about.

Madam Chairperson, this country needs to diversify the economy anchored on agriculture and tourism. The President is a lawyer, but the way he understands issues to do with economic improvement really surprises me.

 

Mr Mung’ andu: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: He does not wish to develop this country as isolated sectors, but brings in a multi-sectoral approach focus to development. This means that if we are to develop the tourism sector, we should not think of Kalambo Falls as an isolated area. We should think about how people can access it and provide accommodation, and this means constructing more roads, and improving airstrips including Mbala Airstrip. If this had to be done, we could promote sustainable development that can stimulate the economy, and to be honest, I really admire the President.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kafwaya: However, other people will politic about the need to create development which ensures that Zambians access services and the economy as a whole begins to function and generate jobs and when there is a small problem, they say they are vindicated. It is really sad.

 

Mr Mung’andu: We will nickname them as vindicators.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, let us ensure that the Southern Province is developed so that the Victoria Falls can bring in more money. Let us ensure that the Northern Province is developed so that Lumangwe and Chishimba Falls can begin to bring in money. Let us ensure that the Kuomboka Ceremony becomes attractive and the Umutomoro Ceremony celebrated at the banks of Lake Chirwa in Mbala can begin to bring finances to this country. Let us ensure that ukusemfywa bagwena starts to attract foreigners. The tourism industry is export oriented and that is why we target those who do not know our traditions and have not seen our tourist attractions. When they come, they leave forex in the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, the kwacha normally strains because people make money in this country and take it to tax havens. However, we want people to bring money to this country. Therefore, the tourism industry is very important and its development cannot be politicised and underplayed. When the President emphasises on the need to anchor our diversification and economic development on the tourism sector, I think we must support the expectations of those who mean well for the country. This country needs a future that promises jobs for the many young people. That way, we will be more united, sustain our development and keep our security because we are ‘one Zambia, one nation’.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate and support the budget for the Ministry of Tourism and Arts.

 

Madam Chairperson, the first issue to acknowledge at the level of policy, is that tourism is a highly comparative sector and entails competing with other countries. Within the sub region, Zimbabwe expects 2.2 million tourist arrivals this year, while Namibia and Botswana expect 1.3 million and 2.1 million, respectively. Zambia expects 966,000 and this is under 1 million. Clearly, our neighbours, Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe have surpassed us. Their tourist arrivals are twice that of Zambia. South Africa, of course, has 10 million tourist arrivals.

 

Madam Chairperson, globally, Africa had 65.3 million tourists and in terms of proportion shares, with Zambia at 966,000, about 1.5 per cent of that total. Namibia, Botswana and Zimbabwe are at 3 per cent of the African tourist arrivals and South Africa is at 15 per cent. Therefore, comparatively speaking, in terms of policy development, Zambia is still extremely low in terms of tourist arrivals. Given what has happened in Zimbabwe over the past couple of weeks, let us not pat ourselves on the shoulder. We have to stretch our sleeve and work extremely hard if we are to be a comparatively favoured destination within the sub-region.

 

In fact, Madam Chairperson, if you read the New York Times, you will find that there is a portion where it has categorised fifty-two favoured destinations for 2017. Botswana is defined as the fifth most favoured tourist destination in 2017. On the African Continent it is only Gabon which is in the twenty-seventh position out of fifty-two countries. This is the New York Times looking at global tourism visitations.

 

Botswana has been described by the Forbes Magazine as the coolest place to go to in 2017. So, the question is: Where are we as Zambia? We are very far away. We are estimating our tourism arrivals to increase to 1.9 million by 2021, which is about three to four years from now. And yet other countries are already at 2 million within the region. Clearly, our competitive advantage is extremely low. Now the question is: What can we do to boost our tourism sector? We have to work extremely hard.

 

As we all may know, tourism is determined by God-given resources. The natural resources which are given by God are there and we do not have to do so much about them. Tourism is determined by culture and what human beings living in the environment are able to create for themselves. Tourism is determined by the leadership which can work with culture and nature, an environment to make, curve and to establish a conducive tourism environment. Of course, tourism is determined by the peace of the country. Here in Africa, Zambia should be a pristine destination for tourism. Clearly to a large extent and in relative terms, we are much more peaceful than most of the African countries.

 

Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: If we look at the entire West African Region, there are conflicts and wars going on there.

 

Mr Ngulube: And ebola!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: If we look at East African Region, there are conflicts and wars going on there including Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC). Theefore, if we look at our space we are a very peaceful nation.

 

Mr Belemu: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: This is one country where an individual can go to the ATM at 0200 hours …

Mr C. R. Banda: Mwavomela lelo!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … in the morning get their money, get in their car and drive home safely. In how many countries can one do that?

 

Mr Belemu: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Very few. Therefore, let us take advantage of that, …

 

Mr Kasonso: Ema contributions aya!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … but there are many factors working against our tourism industry.

 

The first one being that our cities, especially Lusaka and those on the Copperbelt are extremely dirty.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Look at the town centre, how can tourist walk freely along Cairo Road and feel safe and get what they want to get? How can a tourist walk freely at Kafue Round about Bridge? Kafue Round about Bridge is an eye sore. We have a dirty environment …

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … in terms of our urban centres. Therefore, let us clean our environment.

 

If one is travelling by bus to Botswana, and is dropping out at a station and they throw litter, they will actually say, “We know you are from Zambia can, stop it”.

 

Laughter

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: “We do not do such things here. Stop it”. The environment is clean.

 

We have to work extremely hard to make our environment clean.

 

Mr Belemu: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: It cannot be done by the Minister of Tourism and Arts alone, but the Minister of Local Government should work very closely with him to ensure that Lusaka is clean. Let us make our towns clean. I do not think that anybody who drives in Lusaka, especially in the town centre, in our Central Business District (CBD), anyone who drives past Kabwe sorry Kafue …

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … bridge, if we look on the sides of Kafue Bridge, are we really happy with what we see? I think I would be ashamed if I was Minister of Local Government to see the way Kafue Bridge is.

 

Mr Mwale: Top jealousy!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: It should not be that way.

 

Laughter

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Let us keep our Central Business District (CBD) clean. Dirt is one of the factors contributing to poor tourism.

 

Madam Chairperson, let us also maintain our peace. Look at our Intercity Bus station and markets, a tourist should feel free to go to the market and buy whatever they want to buy. A tourist should feel free to drop at the Intercity Bus Station. Let those who are in charge of the bus stations and markets, make them conducive to tourists. All us here in this Chamber should feel free to go to the Intercity Bus Station and not expect to be harassed by cadres. If a Member of Parliament goes to the market, and they know us very well, they will hear the cadres shouting ‘Honurable, honourable’.

 

Mr Ngulube: Honourable tulyemo!

 

Laughter

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Do we really need to be shouted at as a hon. Member of Parliament when you want to go to the market you are relaxing in your casual wear and have a good time with your family. However, the first thing you will hear is someone shouting ‘honourable, honourable’. Do we really need that?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Let those who are in charge, please, create a conducive environment for us. We do not need that. These are the sort of things that we have to critically look at ourselves if we are to have a conducive tourism environment.

 

Madam Chairperson, look at what happened in Livingstone during the World Tourism Conference, Livingstone was clean. When Hon. Masebo was Minister Tourism and Arts, she worked very hard. She camped in Livingstone and made it highly conducive for all us, tourists included. We need to do the same thing here in Lusaka.

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Let me now talk about the road blocks. There are so many road blocks. If one is driving on Kafue Road, there will be roadblocks along the road and sometimes we have foreign visitors in big vehicles, and they are there waiting for sometimes an hour before they can go. Do we really need all that, hon. Minister of Home Affairs? We do not need all these things. Therefore, the enemy of tourism in our country is nobody else, but us.

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Yes!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: The leadership is an enemy of tourism. We have a lot of natural resources, diverse culture and a multi-cultural environment. We have a multilingual environment. We are culturally very rich and we can turn this sector into an economic viability and gain a lot of resources of out it, but the enemy is ourselves. Therefore, the mindset of the leadership has to change if tourism has to work for us.

 

Madam Chairperson, you are aware that we have been talking about the Northern Circuit for many years now. What have we done to make the Northern Circuit comparatively similar to Sharm el Sheikh in Egypt‎? We have done very little. Yet, God has given us natural resources, which we are failing to turn into a tourism paradise. Unfortunately, we even went to the extent of allowing mining in the most pristine tourism environment in the Lower Zambezi. How can we do such things?

 

In conclusion, I would like to say we are the enemies of ourselves in terms of tourism.

 

Madam, Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr A. C. Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on this vote.

Madam, I would like to start by thanking the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts for his policy statement. I would also like to state that it is encouraging to see that the Government has increased the budget allocation to this ministry by 24 per cent. It simply means that we are on the right track in trying to ensure that the country invests in tourism. Just like many other hon. Members have said, these are God given natural resources. Unfortunately, just like many other things God has given us in this country, the population of 15 million people has failed to lift itself out of poverty.

 

Madam, which ever sector one may look at in this country, we have failed to make use of the natural resources even at policy creation. Instead of creating policies that would work for us, we always want to make policies, which are going attract the outsiders.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the hon. Minister’s policy statement, there is no indication whatsoever about a Zambian going to visit a tourism site or indeed, any incentive to encourage those of us, who have a little bit of resources to visit those areas. The tourism sites can actually create opportunities for our people, who are living in those areas to lead modern lives like us in those urban areas.

 

Mr Mukosa: Hear, hear!

 

Mr A. C. Mumba: Madam Chairperson, for instance, Mafinga is the source of the Luangwa River. This is a very nice area, but it can only be realised if incentives could be given to a local investor by opening up that area. Along the Mpika/Kasama Road, there are number of waterfalls, where people just go to watch free of charge and there is no security whatsoever. They just stop over and watch the waterfalls. There is no investment whatsoever.

 

Madam, again, I did not hear anything in the hon. Minster’s policy statement about how the ministry intends to closely work with the Zambian Development Agency (ZDA) to market the tourism sites. The Northern Circuit that we have been talking about for the last five years is indeed a similar picture like the Sharm el Sheikh in Egypt. Actually, we can develop that area. Of course, we are supposed to encourage foreign direct investment. What are we ever going to own in this country that God has given us if we cannot own simple even things like the tourism sites, which are being run by operators from abroad?

 

Madam, in 2010, there was a report on a web site called CNT Traveler. Com. This site was talking about the second largest animal migration which takes place year in, year out in the Liuwa National Park, but, Liuwa Parliamentary Constituency is very poor. Suffice to say that as at 22^nd January, 2010, four nights stay in Liuwa was at UK£1,772 double.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Mr A. C. Mumba: Madam, that was seven years ago, but to date, our People continue to struggle. As far as I am concerned, the most important thing is that whatever policy we come up with should encourage the Zambian people to visit those areas so that opportunities or business can be grow. You will be surprised that to hear that most people think that business is just in Lusaka. For example, the people, who invested in Kalumbila, saw the potential in that area and today, Kalumbila has one the best golf courses in the country and yet, we are just watching. I suppose the most important thing is for the hon. Minister to go and check which categories of the Zambians can be given business opportunities and tax incentives to allow us to visit those places. Therefore, we should not just visit Livingstone because there are many other areas like tourism Samfya.

 

Madam, when I first visited Tinegan and Tobego in Samfya, I was told that there is a Maracas Beach, which is famous because of its white sand. To my surprise, we are still waiting for a foreigner to come and set up something for us to accept. Why can we not make use of the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) properly, instead of us simply saying there is US$50 million there? We should see how that money can be used in terms of the tourism fund. How do move away from conferences, where we take tea and coffee to practically go out there and make sure that people in those areas have jobs that we keep talking about. If anything, those jobs can only be created by us.

 

Madam Chairperson, tourism is the second from agriculture in terms of creation of employment.  For instance, a lodge employs a number of people. Therefore, the ministry should make sure that they look at how best Zambians can effectively participate in this sector.

 

Madam, hon. Members of Parliament should be given incentives to enable them visit some tourism areas because this will also build their families instead of going to various clubs every time they are on holiday. This was my observation.

 

Madam Chairperson, lastly, I wanted to talk about, the Kasanka National Park. The same website I referred to earlier was quoted saying that Kasanka National Park has the largest mammal migration on earth. The Liuwa National Park is the second best animal migration in Africa and this one is the largest mammal migration on earth. This simply means that there is nowhere in the world, where this happens. Why do allow such opportunities that God has given us not to be properly tapped in? Why should we spend most of our marketing activities looking for tourists abroad?

 

Madam, if 500 of the Zambians were given opportunities by various companies or institutions to visit those sites, definitely, job opportunities will be there for our colleagues, who are living in those areas because of infrastructure developed.

 

Madam Chairperson, with those few words, I would like to support the budget.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: (Livingstone: Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important head.

 

Madam, listening to the policy statement from the hon. Minister and those, who have debated before me from your left, it is very clear that tourism opportunities have remained un tapped in this country despite us having abundant natural resources such as the wild animals and the Victoria Falls, which is one of the Seven Wonders of the World.

For example, we have wild animals and the Victoria Falls, which is one of the Seven Wonders of the World. Livingstone is also renowned for its titles. At one time, it was the capital city of Zambia. It was also the headquarters of the Southern Province at one point. It is now the tourism capital of this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, when the Patriotic Front (PF) Government announced that it would move the provincial headquarters from Livingstone to Choma, it wanted Livingstone to be the hub of tourism activities. However, two or three years done the line, we have not seen anything to that effect. We expected that by this time, there was going to be effective decentralisation. We thought that certain officers would be moved to Livingstone so that they were able to make decisions as they received problems and challenges. There is too much bureaucracy and red tape in Government. It is difficult for somebody to think of investing in this country because of how tedious it is for one to acquire licences.

 

Madam Chairperson, investment opportunities in the hospitality industry are many. This is in terms of lodges, hotels and tourist camps. Just like the previous speaker said, Africa receives millions of international tourist arrivals every year. Unfortunately, Zambia is not among the top ten tourist destinations in Africa. In terms of revenue from the tourism sector, our neighbouring countries are taking advantage of what we have and making a lot of money. For example, South Africa advertises the Victoria Falls and claims it is a few miles away from Oliver Tambo International Airport and yet, the Victoria Falls is in Zambia. By so doing, the tourists destined to the Victoria Falls end up paying everything in South Africa. When they come here, everything is already paid in South Africa, including transport, thereby depriving our local operators of business.

 

Madam Chairperson, figures do not lie. In 2016, South Africa raised a record US$7,910,000 from the tourism sector. Zimbabwe in 2016, also raised about US$824,000 from tourism.  Again, Zambia is not among the top ten in terms of tourism revenue and yet, the Victoria Falls is just partially in Zimbabwe. Two thirds of it is in Zambia. Due to bilateral treaties that we probably sign without knowing the advantages and disadvantages to Zambia, a lot of tourists land in Zimbabwe probably because the flights there are very cheap than in Zambia. They then cross over and view the falls without paying any Ngwee.

 

Madam Chairperson, we should see to it that Zambians exploit natural resources and one would wonder why Zambia has not …

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1255 hours until 1430 hours.

 

 [THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

 Chair]

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that with all the natural resources the country has, the peace, and the warm smiles from the Zambian people, one wonders why we have performed very badly in the tourism sector. This has happened because of several reasons.

 

Madam Chairperson, the first reason has to do with our marketing strategy. When you go to Dubai, you will be greeted by many adverts at the airport. I saw one which said, “Discover Dubai with a world class destination of tourism activities.” In Zambia, at the moment, we are building and modernising two international airports. However, if we will not put screens in our airports where we will be advertising our tourist sites, we will continue lagging behind. At Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula International Airport, there is nothing to showcase the tourism sites in the country. Very few placards have been put there. There are no screens. Other countries have put screens even in shopping malls to advertise their tourism sector so that people can make a decision and know where to go and spend their money.

 

Madam Chairperson, the second reason is policies. I had stated earlier that the bad policies we have been making are affecting the tourism sector. For example, the movement of the headquarters from Livingstone, left Livingstone looking like a ghost town. The Government did not plan well to ensure that the tourism sector, which is the only source of employment for the people of Livingstone, is upgraded and standardised. People have lost the income they used to collect because the people who used to rent the houses in Livingstone moved to Choma. There are no people to rent their houses anymore. This has done a disservice to the people of Livingstone.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me look at the issue of licences. I had mentioned that licences are very expensive and are too many. The Government built a one stop shop in Livingstone. However, if somebody went there today, they would still be referred to other departments like the Zambia Tourism Board, Department of National Parks and Wildlife (DNPW), National Heritage Conservation Commission or National Museums Board. People have to go to all these departments to get licences. Certain pieces of land are in the national parks. For someone to operate tourism activities there, they need to get all sorts of licences from different places, including the council. 

 

Madam Chairperson, the other issue is the behaviour of the police. In Livingstone, the police put speed traps. Somebody was rushing to the airport with a tourist in the bus was stopped by the police. Instead of charging the driver so that he could pay there and then, the police told the driver to go to the police station. This resulted in exchange of blows. The tourist was rushing to Kasane and somebody was waiting to pick him at the border. Along the Livingstone/Kazungula Road, this tourist was stopped. He said that whenever he was stopped in other countries like South Africa or Botswana, he was charged there and then and allowed to go. However, here, we tell someone who is in a hurry to go to the police station. This situation resulted in exchange of blows. This does not augur well for the tourism sector. Tourism is not about the Ministry of Tourism and Arts alone. There are other ministries that should be involved to promote tourism.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the way forward. I want the Government to look at making Livingstone a tax free zone so that people operating businesses in the tourism sector can compete with the tourism businesses on the Zimbabwean side. In terms of bed space, Victoria Falls Town in Zimbabwe has more bed spaces than Livingstone, and that is making the price of a room per night cheaper on the Zimbabwean side than on the Zambian side. Hotels are probably three or four in Livingstone and this is creating monopoly. Yet, Livingstone is a destination for conferences.

 

Early this year, a powerful delegation composed of the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts and other hon. Ministers had gone to Livingstone to look at how best they could come up with a convention centre. Up to now, the people of Livingstone are waiting for this to be done because they think it will create employment. However, that has not been done.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is high time we waived visa fees for tourists who are brought to Livingstone or other tourist destinations by local tourism operators. This will help promote local operators. Tourists will want to use them because they will be cheaper. This will also lower the cost of doing business. It is very difficult for a local person in Livingstone to run a tourism business. At the end of the day, these local tourism operators are unable to compete with those who are marketing themselves internationally.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have talked about decentralising some functions in the Ministry of Tourism and Arts so that officers who can make decisions can be deployed to Livingstone. During the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) conference in Livingstone, some projects were started and they were going well. The construction of the Intercity Bus Terminus and the Town Centre Market in Livingstone started during the UNWTO.  However, the pace at which these two projects are being constructed is not the same as it was during the conference because decisions are now being made in Lusaka. If the Government has failed to fund these projects, it is high time they surrendered them to the council. The council can finish them so that people can start using these facilities. It is sad that the city does not have a bus terminus.

 

Buses load and offload passengers anywhere and anyhow. The other sad thing is that the places where these buses operate from do not even have ablution blocks.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to see a plan for Livingstone and other tourism sites.

 

I thank you for according me this opportunity.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sampa (Kasama Central): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to represent the wonderful people of Kasama Central Parliamentary Constituency. I wish to support the policy statement for the Ministry of Tourism and Art. From the face of it, it is soundful, especially when it comes to the Budgetit sounds fine. Unfortunately, when you look at the gravity of the issues that this ministry deals with, I would have loved it to be allocated more money.. Why am I saying so? It is because I come from a constituency which has the second revenue collection waterfalls in the country, which is the Chishimba Falls. Chishimba Falls does not have amenities that would attract a lot of people to go and spend their holiday there.

 

Madam Chairperson, when you view tourism from a holistic approach, you will agree that it is a high time we stopped thinking that tourism only exists in the Southern Province, with Livingstone being the champion. The Chishimba Falls never runs dry. It has water throughout the year compared to Livingstone which dries up at a certain period of the year. I want to urge the Government to have a strategic plan to redesign and refocus its tourism. The Northern Province has the potential to contribute greatly to this country’s economy, and that is achievable. When I look at most of the sites that are in the Northern Province, Kasama in particular, I see them as opportunities for our young people, the women and men to get employed directly and indirectly. The Chishimba Falls is not the only site that I can proudly talk about in this august House. There are other places such as the Mwela Rocks, the main tree which is at Chambeshi Market. The main tree is what was used during the slave trade era, when our forefathers were being sold. Unfortunately, that place has not been secured, yet it is very important. The Chambeshi River, where the Germans surrendered during the Second World War, is another place which has not been properly secured. We also have the great Lumangwe Falls, which needs attention from the Ministry of Tourism and Art. All these sites have the potential to bring revenue into our country. Therefore, we must start refocusing our revenue bases so that we create job opportunities for our people just as our great President has urged. These are some of the sites that will create job opportunities for our people.

Madam Chairperson, let me not forget about a great mountain, which is just on the outskirts as one enters Kasama. This is where the great battle between the Ngonis and the Bembas was. This place is known as the Kapongola and it is where the Ngonis were challenged by the Bembas.

 

Mr Tembo: Question!

 

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, the Ngonis were defeated before they stole our princess.

 

Mr Tembo: Question!

 

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, that is a very good historical point. In fact, they did not kidnap her, they abducted her after being defeated. Nevertheless, that has created a very good relationship between the people from the Northern part of Zambia and those from the Eastern Province. That mountain must not be looked at as being one of the statues or monuments. It should add value to our country as it borders on rich information. That information should be disseminated to the world so that when people visit the province, they will see where the cousinship between the Easterners and the Northerners began.

 

Madam Chairperson, I know for a fact that tourism has only been emphasised on the Southern part of our country. However, we need to shift our minds. Lets us not create a cartel that will think that the Northern part cannot contribute greatly to the economic status of our country when it has great potential that it needs to be tapped into. It is high time we started looking up north where there is a lot of potential for tourism and investment site. Further, away from Kasama, we have our great lake there. Every year, we have boat cruise and boat racing on these lakes, which most of our Zambian people are not aware of. There is great potential in the Northern Part of Zambia. I would love to continue giving so many examples, but with these few words, I support the Budget and just wish that more resources could be allocated to this ministry.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Banda: Madam Chairperson, first of all, I wish to thank all those who have debated in support of the Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Tourism and Art. I am happy that all the contributions that have been made are very positive. I consider them to be contributions that are going to be very helpful towards the development of tourism in Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, what has come out clearly from all the contributions is that branding is not the same as marketing. We need to realise or know who we are. After we have done that, we must know what we want to sell. That is the entry point. That business as usual attitude should be put aside and start thinking differently.

 

Madam Chairperson, we need to create authenticity in the product that we are selling. We have to own and posses it. I am glad that what has come out very clearly is that hon. Members are interested to own tourism as a product that should be enhanced and developed throughout the country.

 

These contributions should mean that tourism is not only in one part of Zambia. We should be looking at Zambia as a whole because tourism is the peoples’ business which must be successful if everybody participates in developing the sector.

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Belemu discussed very passionately and brought out very pertinent points. Although he appeared to be very aggressive, he was very positive.

 

Laughter

 

Mr C. Banda: He talked about accelerating the consolidation of policies, which we agree with, and us working together with stakeholders, which we already doing. He also talked about the TDF being taken to Control 99 at the Bank of Zambia while some of the money is left for our use. I wish to inform the hon. Member that this has been taken care of. In fact, the money collected through the TDF does not go to Control 99. This money has a separate account, Control 99 B. I assure the hon. Member that we are in charge. The signatories of that account are from the Ministry of Tourism and Arts, therefore, this money is available for us to use as and when need arises, which makes it very easy. The ZTA does not collect the levy as it is collected through the ZRA who then transfers it to Control 99 B, which is under the Ministry of Tourism and Arts.

 

Madam Chairperson, I agree with the hon. Member on the reviewing of hunting concessions. We are working on a strategic master plan, which we hope to rollout in the first quarter of next year, which deals with all the concerns which have been raised. Through the master plan we hope to look at how to step up the process of ensuring that all those areas that are lagging behind where tourism is concerned are taken care of. This includes the northern circuit and Liuwa in the Western Province which an hon. Member talked about. The master strategic plan is going to take on board most of the issues which have been raised on the floor of the house.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am grateful that my colleagues feel that K15.6 million is not enough for now. However, let us look at it as a positive step towards what we want to achieve. We have now gone to K15.6 million from K6.7 million which is a good starting point. We are hoping that the hon. Minister of Finance will increase the figure in 2019, because tourism is a very difficult business without marketing. We can only get returns where we invest. If we do not invest we should not expect returns. We believe that as we go on, we may get better amounts than the K15.6 million for investments so that we are able to compete with the neighbouring countries like South Africa, Botswana and Namibia.

 

Madam Chairperson, our colleagues have invested in tourism and that is why they seem to be far ahead of us. They realised much earlier than us that tourism was a business and that they would be able to generate money and the much needed jobs for their country through it. The same applies here. We want to generate wealth and jobs through tourism, but the first step is to invest in the sector. The way to invest in the sector is to take into consideration that we must make Zambia visible. They only way Zambia can be visible is by marketing the products that we have. We are lucky that we have a wide range of products in Zambia. We have only concentrated on the Victoria Falls and yet we have so many other waterfalls. There are wonderful places in the northern part of the country which can make Zambia a destination of choice if we develop them by way of putting infrastructure and markets.

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to appreciate Hon. Kafwaya who also talked about us working on infrastructure such as airports and roads. We have already started working on most of these things. We have already started working on airports. We have started upgrading the airports in Lusaka, Ndola, Kasaba Bay and Livingstone. The roads leading to some of these sites in the northern circuit are being worked on. Councils and provincial administrations have been on the ground to work on roads in places like Mbala, Chishimba Falls, Kabwelume and Lumangwe. When these roads are completed it will be easier to attract those who have money to go and put up infrastructure such as accommodation, which includes motels and lodges.

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to appreciate the contributions by the hon. Member for Nalikwanda, Prof. Lungwangwa who said that tourism is highly competitive. It is indeed a very competitive business, but what is important is to form something unique which is going to attract people to you. We must be unique from the rest. If we are going to do the same as the others then what is point of coming to Zambia if tourists can see it all in Kenya, South Africa or Zimbabwe? We are lucky that we have what it takes to make Zambia the best choice for any tourist in this region.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is our aim to improve arrivals, but what is key is what Prof. Lungwangwa said about working extremely hard. We should all work hard and this includes the Executive, the Ruling Party and the Opposition. Tourism will benefit all of us, it does not matter what party you belong to. I like that everybody realises that we have to be in this together.

 

Madam Chairperson, another point that came out clearly is that Zambia is a peaceful country. In fact, peace is a prerequisite for tourism. Tourists do not go to places where there is war. Tourists want to go to places where there is peace, where they will be safe and Zambia is one such place. We have God-given resources in Zambia which include culture and such things determine the tourism environment.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member for Kantanshi talked about developing and supporting local tourism. We are already working towards this and part of the programme that we have is to develop a package for local tourism which will start with Civil Servants and Parliamentarians. We are going to include everybody in the first round. We would like hon. Members to make contributions through their holidays. Zambians should learn to take holidays.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr C. Banda: We should know Zambia before other people come to know Zambia. When we have known Zambia, it will be easier for us to market it as a destination. We are going to start a tourism package and we encourage hon. Members of Parliament to take an interest so that they can know Zambia. We should know Zambia beyond the areas we come from by travelling far and wide.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Come for a holiday in Dundumwezi.

 

Mr C. Banda: I also listened attentively to the hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone. However, before I get into that, the hon. Member for Kantanshi talked about Liuwa. Liuwa has the second largest wild beast migration only second to the Serengeti in Kenya. Those are products which are unique to us in Zambia and all we need is to maximise on marketing.

 

In Kasanka, we have the largest bat migration in the world. Apparently between 10 to 12 million bats do converge in Kasanka National Park around this time of the year, from October until December. When you are there to see them taking off, into the air to go and look for food, you will not see the sky because they cover the entire sky. It is actually something worth seeing. Kasanka National Park is not far away. It is just in Central Province.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am very grateful to hon. Jere, but he was pushing an open door because all that he talked about like having certain offices move to Livingstone; plans are already underway to move some offices. He also talked about advertising which is going on in South Africa of the Victoria Falls, it is actually a concern even to me that each time I pass through Oliver Tambo International Airport, the largest advert I see there is the Victoria Falls. They are claiming that South Africa is the land of the Victoria Falls, but that is marketing. Unfortunately, at the moment there is really nothing much that we can do about it apart from finding ways on how to counter that type of advertising. The truth is that that the country is not the land of the Victoria Falls. Zambia is the land of the Victoria Falls. For those of us who do not know, the Victoria Falls is 1.7 kilometres wide. Out of that 1.7 kilometres width, 1.2 kilometres are in Zambia and 500 metres in Zimbabwe. Therefore, Zambia is the true home of the Victoria Falls. All that we need to do is to enhance our marketing strategy so that we reclaim and reposition tourism in that area of the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, there was also a contribution which came from Hon. Sampa who talked about the strategic plan. We have a strategic plan most of the issues that he talked about on board. I want to say briefly that among the few achievements that we want to talk about are:

 

(i)         Zambia opened up for increased flow of Meetings, Incentives, Conferences and Exhibitions (MICE). All we need to do is to try and do a little bit more and then we will be very visible towards that;

 

(ii)        the Ministry of Tourism and Arts successfully lobbied for visa reforms which is a very thorny issue and we are on our way with the uni-visa and the e-visa which were introduced in 2015, to make it easier to facilitate for tourists arrivals;

 

(iii)       on infrastructure, we have already talked about roads and the airports developments. We have also negotiated successfully for the removal of the Yellow Fever demand by the Republic of South Africa for tourists that come into Zambia through South Africa; and

 

(iv)       On the fishing ban, Hon. Belemu talked about the lower Zambezi. I think that has already been taken care of because permits are given by the Fisheries Department for sport fishing which is known as angling during the fishing ban only on lake Kariba and Tanganyika where the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries do not close.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am grateful for all the issues that have been raised. We are trying to handle, harness and make it easier for tourists both local and international to enjoy the heritage that we have.

 

Madam Chairperson, with these remarks and responses, I beg the House to support the budget estimates for the Ministry of Tourism and Arts.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 68/01 – (Ministry of Tourism and Art – Human Resource and Administration – K77,896,810).

 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move amendments on Head 68/01 – Ministry of tourism and Arts – Human resource and administration:

 

(i)         under 08, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 1001 – General Administration, Activity 003 – Office Administration, by the deletion of K1,147,090 and the substitution therefor of K147,090;

 

(ii)        under 08, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 1001 General Administration, Activity 005 – Support to Permanent Secretary’s Office, by the deletion of K1,108,670 and the substitution therefor of K108,670;

 

(iii)       under 08, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 1001 – general Administration, Activity 006- Support to Minister’s Office, by the deletion of K1,861,00 and the substitution therefor of K861,000;

 

(iv)       under 08, Human Resources and administration Unit, Programme 1001 – General Administration, Activity 009 – Utility Bills, by the deletion of K3,298,690 and the substitution therefor of K298,690;

 

(v)        under 08, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 1001- General Administration, Activity 058 – Maintenance of Infrastructure, be the deletion of K1,144,200 and the substitution therefor of K144,200;

 

(vi)       under 08, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 1001 – General Administration, by the deletion of the Programme Total K8,559,650 and the substitution therefor of K1,559,650

 

(vii)      under 08, Human Resources and Administration Unit, by the deletion of the unit Total K75,218,470 and the substitution therefor of K68,218,470; and

 

(viii)      by the deletion of the Departmental total K77,896,810 and the substitution therefor of K70,896,810.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1001, this is where we have the amendment, Activities 003 – Office Accommodation – K1,147,090 and 006 – Support to Minister’s Office – K1,861,000, why these huge increments?

 

Mr C. R. Banda: Madam Chairperson, the purpose to Activity 003, this provision is required for maintenance of office amenities. It covers office materials, security systems and facilitating protocol duties and servicing of office equipment and furniture. The ministry proposed notice of amendment to move funds to Department 5, Unit 9, Programme 1565, Activity 012, as community share of hunting levy CRBs.

 

Activity 006- support to Minister’s Office, this provision is required to service the office of the minister. The provision comprises office material, office entertainment and other services. The ministry proposed notice of amendment to move funds to Department 5, Unit 9, Programme 1565, Activity 012 as community share of hunting revenue CRBs.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1001 – General Administration, Activity 099 – Utility Bills – K298,690, why this tremendous increase? If the amount last year was adequate to cater for Utility Bills, how do you explain this increase?

 

Mr C. R. Banda:  Madam Chairperson, this provision is required for settling of electricity, telephone and water bills. The increase is due to the increase in electricity tariffs. The ministry proposed notice amendment to move funds to Department 05, Unit 09, Programme 1565, Activity 012 as community share of hunting reserve for CRBs.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 68/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Votes 68/02, 68/03 and 68/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 68/05 – (Ministry of Tourism and Arts – National Parks and Wildlife and Management – K146,579,870).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 

1. under 06, Wildlife Law Enforcement Unit, Programme 1563 Wildlife Protection, Activity 001 Patrol Equipment (AIA), by the deletion of K6,358,860 and the Substitution therefor of K11,358,860;

 

1. under 06, Wildlife Law Enforcement Unit, Programme 1563 Wildlife Protection, by the deletion of Programme Total K9,486,950 and the substitution therefor of K14,486,950;

 

1. under 06, Wildlife Law Enforcement Unit, by the deletion of Unit Total K9,854,960 and the substitution therefor of K14,854,960;

 

1. under 08, Infrastructure Unit, Programme 1259 Infrastructure Rehabilitation and Construction, Activity 039 Routine Maintenance (AIA), by the deletion of K7,061,080 and the substitution therefor of K2,061,080;

 

1. under 08, Infrastructure Unit, Programme 1259 Infrastructure Rehabilitation and Construction, by the deletion of Programme Total K8,176,510 and the substitution therefor of K3,176,510;

 

1. under 08, Infrastructure Unit, by the deletion of Unit Total K8,242,510 and the substitution therefor of K3,242,510;

 

1. under 09, Community Based Natural Resource Unit, Programme 1565 Community Based Wildlife Management, Activity 012 Community Share of Hunting Revenue (AIA), by the deletion of K4,232,390 and the substitution therefor of K11,232,390;

 

1. under 09, Community Based Natural Resource Unit, Programme 1565 Community Based Wildlife Management, by the deletion of Programme Total K4,973,290 and the substitution therefor of K11,973,290;

 

1. under 09, Community Based Natural Resources Unit, by the deletion of Unit Total 5,236,240 and the substitution therefor of K12,236,240; and

 

1. by the deletion of the Department Total K146,579,870 and the substation therefor of K153,579,870.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1259, Activity 039, Routine Maintenance (AIA) -  K7,061,080. In 2017, there was K361,085. Why do we have that huge increase?

 

Mr C. R. Banda: Madam Chairperson, this allocation is meant for routine maintenance.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

•  

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, in 2017, the allocation has been K361,085. For 2018, you are proposing K7,061,080. The question is, “Why is there such a huge increase?”

 

•  

 

The Chairperson: Do you have any notes from your officials?

 

•  

 

Mr C. R. Banda: Madam Chairperson, the fund has been reduced due to the amendment which has been moved.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: Therefore, it means the amount has actually been reduced from what is appearing in the Yellow Book.

 

Mr C. R. Banda: Madam Chairperson, the Minister of Finance moved the following amendment:

 

“Under 08, Infrastructure Unit, Programme 1259, Infrastructure Rehabilitation and Construction, Activity 039 Routine Maintenance (AIA) by deletion of K7,061,080 and substitution therefor of K2,061,080.”

 

Madam Chairperson, this means that the amount has actually reduced.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 68/05, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

 

VOTE 68/06 – (Ministry of Tourism and Arts – National Parks and Wildlife Regions – K16,129,190).

 

Mr Nanjuwa: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1566, Activity 007 – Law Enforcement Operations – K143,840 which is also appearing under Unit 03, Programme 1566 – Wildlife Conversation and Management, Activity 007 –  Law Enforcement Operations - K132,260.

 

Mr C. R. Banda: Madam Chairperson, this provision is required to facilitate procurement of fuel and food rations to undertake Law Enforcement Operations in the anti-poaching activities.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: The question is that, “Programme 1566 – Wildlife Conservation and Management has got an activity called, Law Enforcement Operations. It is also appearing on page 889. I thought that your answer should be that this is in different areas.”

 

Mr C. R. Banda: Madam Chairperson, yes, these activities are for different areas.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: Mr Nanjuwa, this activity is appearing in one area under Programme 1566 on page 888 and in another area under page 889.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1566, Activity 007 – Law Enforcement Operations, Programme 1568, Activity 002 – Protection of Wildlife Offenders and Programme 1566, Activity 009 – Prosecution of Wildlife Offenders. There are allocations in 2017, of K53,340, K28,700 and K60,000, respectively. I do not see any allocations for 2018. Does the minister not expect any prosecutions in this area?

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, focus on Programme 1566, Activity 001 – Prosecution of Wildlife Offenders – Nil. The question is: do you not expect to prosecute wildlife offenders?

 

Mr C. R. Banda: Madam Chairperson, prosecution was moved to the National Prosecution Authority (NPA).

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, where is this allocation in the Budget?

 

The Chairperson: Mr Lufuma, if it has been moved to the NPA, the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts is not the right Minister to answer that question. On his part, he has told you that he is no longer responsible for that activity. Let us move on.

 

Vote 68/06 and 68/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 45 – (Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare – K1,020,067,132).

 

The Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare (Ms Kabanshi): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the 2018 Estimates and Expenditure for the ministry, under Head 45.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me also take this opportunity to thank our Republican President, His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, for his passion and commitment towards uplifting the living standards of the poor and the vulnerable people in society. For the first time in the history of our country, we have the Poverty and Vulnerability Reduction Pillar in the Seventh National Development Plan (SNDP). As Minister responsible for the ministry that seeks to reduce poverty and vulnerability among the Zambian people, I am very grateful for this gesture by our Republican President which will not leave anyone behind in the development agenda of our beloved country, Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to inform the House that the 2018 Budget for the ministry has been prepared in the Output Based Budgeting (OBB) format as opposed to the Activity Based Budgeting (ABB) format. The House will also notice that the OBB format establishes a clear link between the ministry’s mandate and the programmes’ outputs that are included in the budget proposals. Further, the OBB format has enabled the ministry to introduce clear, narrative and numerical information on expected results to be achieved from the budget allocations.

 

Therefore, the estimates of expenditure presented are according to the programmes and their sub-programmes indicating budget allocations to core programmes for the ministry. Additionally, the House may wish to note that the 2018 core programmes are in line with the ministry’s mandate which is the ‘provision of social protection to vulnerable individuals, communities and regulation of non-governmental organisations (NGOs) in order to contribute to sustainable human development’. The strategic objectives of the 2018 Output Based Budget are:

 

1. to strengthen co-ordination of social protection for vulnerable persons and communities;
2. to improve coverage of social protection programmes for vulnerable persons and communities; and

 

1. to regulate operations of NGOs.

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to inform the House that these objectives are derived from the Poverty and Vulnerability Pillar Number Two of the SNDP. In this regard, the ministry has five programmes of focus, namely;

 

1. the Social Assistance Programme;

 

1. the Social Welfare Programme;

 

1. the Community Development Programme;

 

1. the NGOs Regulation and Standards Progamme; and

 

1. the Management Support Services Programme.

 

The implementation of these programmes is expected to result into the attainment of respective outputs.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Social Assistance Programme is aimed at giving support to incapacitated individuals and households in form of cash, goods or in kind. The aim target groups for this programme are the female and elderly headed households, orphans and neglected children, chronically ill and minor disaster victims. The initiatives that the Government uses to provide assistance are through:

 

1. the Social Cash Transfers and this is done by providing regular and non-contributory payments of money to beneficiaries; and

 

1. the Public Welfare Assistance Scheme given in form of educational, health care and social support as well as repatriation of stranded persons whilst care for the aged is mainly for persons aged 60 years and above through community or institutional care.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Social Welfare Programme focuses on improving care and protection of the vulnerable persons in society. It will mainly focus on juveniles in contact with the law, persons with disabilities, children in need of care and survivors of Gender Based Violence (GBV) and human trafficking, among others. This is done through:

 

1.  mainstreaming of disability in all the sectors;

 

1. ensuring justice for juveniles in conflict with the law is secured; and

 

1. the provision of protection, maintenance and promotion of rights of children especially those who are in need of care such as the abandoned, circumstantial, orphaned, abused and neglected children.

 

The social welfare programme will also provide for the support, care and protection to individuals and groups facing diverse challenges in their lives. These individuals and groups affected may include survivors of Gender Based Violence (GBV), survivors of human trafficking, ex-prisoners, mental and ex-mental patients and couples undergoing challenges in their marriages.

 

Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kabanshi: The third is the Community Development Programme. This facilitates pro-poor programmes that will contribute towards poverty reduction through implementation of community based interventions such as:

 

1. the Food Security Pack Programme;

 

1. Livelihood and Empowerment Support schemes;

 

1. Community Self-help Initiatives; and

 

1. Community Skills Development activities.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Food Security Pack (FSP), which is a sub programme aims at promoting food security to vulnerable, but viable households through the provision of farming inputs.

 

The Livelihood and Empowerment Support Scheme; is sub programme which targets vulnerable women with livelihood entrepreneur skills and startup capital for small scale business targeted through clubs and village banking concept.

 

The Community Self-help Initiative is a sub programme that supports community driven infrastructure and non-infrastructure projects.

 

The Community Skills Development activities, this sub programme provide functional literacy and other livelihood related skills to individuals who have had no chance of accessing formal education. My ministry also provides training in community development through staff training colleges based in Monze and Kitwe.

 

The fourth programme is a Non-Governmental Organisation Regulation and Standards Programme. This programme facilitates the registration and regulation of the Non-Governmental Organisations operating and intending to operate in Zambia. The ministry is in the process of facilitating the repeal and replacement of the NGO Act No. 16 of 2009.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kabanshi: The firth programme is the Management and Support Services Programme. This programme aims at providing human resources, logistical and other support services to ensure efficient and effective delivery of social protection services. The expected outputs under this programme are as follows:

 

1. significant reduction of audit queries in addition to enhanced value for money;

 

1. ensure that ministerial policies are successfully developed and executed;

 

1. enhanced performance management, monitoring and evaluation systems; and

 

1. efficient and effective ministerial management information system.

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to assure the people of Zambia through this august House that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services shall remain resolute in executing its mandate in line with various portfolio functions that include the following:

 

1. the National Social Protection Policy;

 

1. the Community Development Policy;

 

1. the Disability Affairs Policy; and

 

1. the Non Governmental Organisations Policy.

 

I further wish to stress that the ministry shall continue to execute its mandates in other portfolio functions such as the provision of adoption and probation service; community development training and skills training; and support to self-help initiatives across the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to inform you that that the 2018 Budget for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is estimated at K1,072,953,373.00. This reflects an increase of 11 per cent from the 2017 allocation of K907,900,000. Of this amount, K848.9 million representing 83.2 per cent of the total ministerial budgets … yah

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Baiba page! Fyafula!

 

Ms Kabanshi: … of the total ministerial budget is financed by the Government of the Republic of Zambia under the leadership of His Excellency, the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, while K171.2 million representing 16.8 per cent is support from the Cooperating Partners.

 

Madam, it is, therefore, gratifying to note that this budgetary allocation for 2018, will facilitate enhanced implementation of social protection programmes in the ministry. At this juncture, I wish to emphasise that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services will continue to play an instrumental role in providing and facilitating social protection services to the poor and vulnerable groups in Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, you may wish to know that K738.3 million of the ministry’s budget, has been allocated to the social assistance programme of which K721.2 million will be used to provide Social Cash Transfers. A total of K44.4 million has also been allocated to the Social Welfare Programme to provide for grants to institutions that uplift the livelihood of vulnerable people countrywide. While K170.4 million will go towards supporting low capacity households including the Food Security Pack and the Community Self-help Initiatives. Further, K7.7 million will go towards the Non-Government Regulations and Standards Programme. The Management and Support Services programme has been allocated K59.3 million.

 

Lastly, K56.4 million representing 5.5 per cent of the total ministerial budget has been allocated to payment of personal emoluments to existing and new staff in 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me now to present my ministry budgetary allocation by programmes.

 

Programme 4501 - Social Assistance

 

The purpose of this programme is to support incapacitated households in form of cash, goods or in kind. The Social Assistance Programme has an allocation of K738.27 million which will be used to support incapacitated households with Social Cash Transfers, in kind support such as educational and health care support as well as repatriation of stranded persons. Further, the funds are meant to provide grants to institutions which care for the elderly persons.

 

The programme is aimed at reducing extreme poverty and intergenerational transfer of poverty. The programme intends to reach out to 700,000 households targeted by the end of 2018, through the Social Cash Transfers.

 

Programme 45.02 - Social Welfare

 

Madam Chairperson, the purpose of this programme is to uplift the lives of the vulnerable people in society through welfare support. Under the social welfare programme, an allocation of K44.4 million has been made available to ensure that the welfare of juveniles in contact with the law is secured and child care facilities are inspected countrywide in order to ensure care and safety towards children in need. The funds allocated also include K29.6 million towards grants to institutions under the programme.

 

Madam, the ministry will also ensure that the protection and the promotion of rights of children will be upheld especially those, who are in need of care such as the abandoned, circumstantial orphaned, abused and neglected children by ensuring that all matters relating to their best interest is given due consideration. Further, the ministry will ensure that child care facilities provide shelter and basic needs to vulnerable children. In 2018, the ministry will intensify inspections of child care facilities in order to facilitate the reintegration of children into their families and communities. It is envisaged that all the 178 child care facilities will be inspected at least once in 2018.

 

Programme 45.03 - Community Development  

 

Madam Chairperson, the purpose of this programme is to ensure that the lives of the people are uplifted through the collective efforts to improve the economic, social and cultural conditions of communities to enable them contribute to national development. The 2018 allocation of K170.4 million under this programme will empower a total of 104,702 vulnerable households. Of these, 80,000 vulnerable, but viable farmer households will be empowered with agriculture inputs under the food security pack while 29,851 vulnerable women will be empowered with productive grants and micro-credit under the livelihood and empowerment support scheme. In addition, my ministry with the funding from the World Bank will empower 75,000 women with entrepreneur skills and productivity grants for the period of three years at a cost of K360 million.

 

Madam, in 2017, my ministry spent a total of K110.64 million to cater for the 12,748 women who received training grants and mentorship. In 2018, my ministry intends to spend K115 million to cover the total of 33,321 women beneficiaries by the end of next year.

 

Programme 45.04 – Non-governmental Regulation and Standards

 

Madam Chairperson, the purpose of this programme is to provide for registration, coordination and regulation of the NGOs in Zambia, in order to effectively contribute to National development. In 2018, an allocation of K7.7 million under this programme is earmarked for the registration of 150 NGOs and the renewal of 122 certificates for NGOs, which will have expired. In addition, the Government will also conduct 600 inspections of registered NGOs in 2018.

 

Programme 45.05 – Management and Support Services

 

Madam Chairperson, the Management and Support Services Programme will undertake in a cost effective manner and all tasks to support the delivery of the co-social assistance, social welfare, community development and regulation and standards of the NGOs functions. In 2018, the management and support services has been allocated with K59.3 million for the strengthening of internal controls, rolling out of the single registry management information system from five districts this year to forty-one more districts in 2018, for key social protection programme across the country and for personnel emolument for members of staff. This allocation will also provide for staff audit and development of policies and review of laws and policies.

 

Madam Chairperson, with this submission, I wish to appeal to all hon. Members of this august House to support the 2018 Budget for the ministry.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Sikazwe: Mulesapotako Namayo kaili.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sikazwe: Good, good!

 

Mr Kundoti (Luena): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to add a word to the estimates of this ministry.

 

Madam, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare is indeed a very important ministry especially that it looks at the welfare of the communities. It is also a ministry in which we put our hope and trust that it will be able to help the vulnerable people who are in dire need of support.

 

Madam, of late we have seen that most of the services that were offered by the ministry have diminished. I say so because when I look back when I was a youth, especially in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) days, the ministry was very vibrant. I used to see a lot of activities carried out by this ministry, but today, there are very few people who can attest to that, let alone the youths that are growing today, I do not think they can even talk about the works of this ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, the unfortunate part is that the hon. Minister has elaborated the activities for her ministry very well, but when it comes to what is happening on the ground, it is actually the opposite. She has given us a breakdown of the programmes, which is very good. The programmes sound good, but what is happening on the ground is not exactly what we have been told in this august House. For example, the local social cash transfer is a very good programme. I would like to know how the identification of the beneficiaries of the social cash is done. How are they recognised?

 

We are aware that the people who have been entrusted with the responsibility of identifying beneficiaries are the District Commissioners (DCs). The DCs are civil servants who do not perform their duties as public workers, but as Patriotic Front (PF) cadres.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Kundoti: That is an undisputable fact because we have seen DCs lining up as cadres. These are the same people who have been entrusted with the responsibility to identify who should be a beneficiary of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme (SCTS). What we see is that the DCs are identifying those who align themselves to the PF, which is very unfortunate. However, what we should not forget is that this is taxpayers’ money that is being used for this programme. It is not PF money.

 

Mr Chilangwa: Iwe naiwe!

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. PF members: Question!

 

Mr Kundoti: Yet this money is being given to only those who sing praise to the PF.

 

Mr Chilangwa: Waliba normal iwe!

 

Mr Kundoti: Madam Chairperson, if this is allowed to continued, then the good intensions that this ministry has may not be achieved because we have so many vulnerable homes and families that need this support. However, they do not get this help because they do not sing PF songs.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kundoti: The problem we have is that even when something good is said, people say ‘question’, which is unfortunate.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kundoti: Nonetheless, we will continue to tell the Executive the truthful and people out there are monitoring what is happening on the Floor of this august House. They are able now to see who are actually for them and who are not.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kundoti: Therefore, the more we speak for the people out there and our colleagues across come out in opposition to what we are saying, the more they are showing to the people who are watching and listening to us that they are not for them.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kundoti: Madam Chairperson, last week as I watching news on television and there was a clip on Livingstone, where apparently disabled children who are supposed to receive help through money meant for social welfare were being asked to pay officers in this ministry.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Kundoti: It was on television and I am surprised …

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Mr Kundoti, you are being derailed because you are paying attention to running commentaries. Focus on the debate and I will handle that part. Continue.

 

Mr Kundoti: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. The relatives of disabled and vulnerable children were asking for assistance from the ministry’s social welfare department, but the officers on the ground were asking those parents, relatives or guardians to pay them something. This is unacceptable and it is my hope that action will be taken against those officers so that they are dealt with for disadvantaging those already disadvantaged children whom they are supposed to help. They are employed to do that work and not to disadvantage the already disadvantaged children.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the olden days we used to see community development officers visiting the villages in rural areas. However, today we do not see this happening. The ministry right now is in need of more logistics. At the moment, the ministry does not have vehicles to do its work properly. We are, therefore, asking that it is given more resources so that it can visit the villages in rural areas and do its work. The ministry officials are supposed to help in the formulation of women and youth clubs. All that is not happening.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kundoti: Why is it so? What has happened? The Ministry of Finance needs to relook at the allocation that has been given to this ministry so it can have transport at district levels and is able to visit the villages and help the women form clubs. We need them and it is the responsibility of the community development officers to be able to do that.

 

Madam Chairperson, let us look at the issue of street children around town. What is this ministry doing to solve that problem? It is a problem that is growing and I would safely say that Zambia is sitting on a time bomb which one day will explode. The children we are seeing today in the streets with babies on their backs have marriages in drainages. The same street kids will become criminals. The hon. Minister should not walk on a flyover bridge around 1900 hours, otherwise she will be attacked. The attack will come from the same street children who are now growing into young men.

 

Since these young men have nobody to care for them, they teach themselves all manner of bad habits. They are the same children who sniff petrol. If you go to the traffic lights at Manda Hill or Kamwala, you will find them there. Just around the Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) church in Kamwala, you will find them there with bottles of petrol. They sniff those bottles and some of them look like garbage.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kundoti: Therefore, it is this responsibility that I am talking about …

 

The Chairperson: Mr Kundoti, what did you just say in reference to those children?

Mr Kundoti: They are children who seem to have no value.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kundoti: It is such children that I am talking about and this ministry should look into this matter and find a way of addressing the situation. There are technocrats in the ministry who should be in the forefront of finding a way to help out these children, otherwise we are sitting on a time bomb.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I wind up my debate, let me say that this ministry needs more money for it to be able to carry out its work effectively. I, therefore, support the budget for this ministry.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate and support the Head for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare.

 

I want to begin by saying that it is not true that officials in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare ask people to pay before they are attended to. I think we have to be factual and relevant in our debates. We do not have to deceive the nation.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: If one person was asked to pay, why did they not report to the relevant authorities or the police?

 

Madam Chairperson, it has become a trend now to point at wrongs that do not even exist, instead of building this nation. I know that this Ministry is one of the key ministries that is doing wonders not only in Patriotic Front (PF) held areas, but Opposition areas. The hon. Minister of this Ministry was on the Floor of this august House and showed us that her Ministry is doing great in areas like Itezhi-Tezhi, Dundumwezi, Msanzala and other places.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngulube: If you want, you can condemn, but let us be factual in the way we debate. The nation is looking at us. The world is listening. I am a backbencher, but I think I am being straightforward in the way I am debating.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, I also know that what we need to do is support this Ministry and let it receive more funding. We should also help it identify people who need help. You cannot continue throwing stones at this Ministry when you have never been to the hon. Minister’s office or you do not even know where the Social Welfare Office is. You just want to say, “These people are not working.”

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngulube: I know that the village banking project is one of the good projects the hon. Minister is doing. She should just strengthen it. She should reach out to more people.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the disability affairs policy and the national social protection policy that the hon. Minister alluded to. I am one of the people who has seen how the Ministry officers, against all odds, find their way to court to represent juveniles who have come into conflict with the law. I urge the hon. Minister to make sure that more officers are employed so that these social protection officers are not seen to be running between court rooms. In Lusaka, for instance, we have more than twelve court rooms. If you have only two officers on a particular day, it means the other courts will have to wait. In that area, the hon. Minister should probably increase the number of officers. She should ensure that there are officers even in places like where Hon. Kundoti comes from.

 

I heard someone say that disabled children are asked to pay to access services from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. Let us be humane. It is not nice to raise allegations and use disadvantaged people to champion hatred or unsubstantiated claims. We really have to condemn that in the strongest sense. It is not nice to do that. The Bible does not even allow us to do that. Let us be factual. If you watched something on television, mention the channel so that we can make a follow-up.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngulube: I would have quoted the Bible, but believe me, as a bishop, I will not do so.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Ngulube: We are not allowed to debate or quote the Bible here.

 

Madam Chairperson, the people of Kabwe Central would like to know when the hon. Minister is coming to visit us.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Mr Ngulube: I know that her Ministry is doing a lot, but she needs a lot of support from the hon. Minister of Finance. Kabwe is one of the towns that have been really hit hardest in terms of economic problems. From the time the privatisation exercise happened, I do not know who was in charge of that, but I believe that while he got very rich, the people of Kabwe remained very, very, very poor.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: As a result, they closed almost all the industries in Kabwe. The Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Limited was the biggest employer. It was closed in 1994. The Kabwe Industrial Fabrics Company (KIFCO) was closed; it was one of the biggest employers. The Zambia-China Mulungushi Textiles was closed. The National Milling Corporation was closed. I can mention all the companies that closed. All the people who were retrenched and lost their jobs need your Ministry, hon. Minister. There are a lot of orphans in my constituency, Kabwe Central. A lot of people died and left orphans. I want the hon. Minister to visit us and tell us some of the projects she is carrying out and tell us about those projects we have not yet received. If we cannot receive them in 2018, because of the Budget, we can probably see them the year after 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are a lot of old people in places like Katondo Compound. Unfortunately, they are being victimised because some unscrupulous land dealers are trying to displace them. I want to assure the people in those places that I will continue speaking for them. There are a lot of old people in Maganda Nyama living in houses that are below the normal standard. These are the people I want the Ministry to empower. The Ministry should help them even with a bag of mealie meal every month through the Social Cash Transfer Scheme. If this is done, their lives will be extended. The people of Kabwe Central are looking forward to seeing the hon. Minister visiting them. I have met her in Kabwe several times. The people want to see her again.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare should find a way to help drop outs. There are a lot of people falling out of school as a result of failing to pay tuition fees. There are a number of universities and colleges, but the amounts they are asking for are quite high for orphans. I want the Ministry to grow beyond what it is today. I do not want the officers in the Ministry to be referring people to hon. Members of Parliament or District Commissioners (DCs). The DC refers people to the hon. Member of Parliament. The officers in the Ministry refer people to hon. Members of Parliament. Some people have not understood the job of an hon. Member Parliament. I know that even the people of Mumbwa and Mitete face a similar problem. People point fingers at hon. Members of Parliament. Thinking they are the ones who give people bursaries. I want the officers in the Ministry to be telling us what they are doing. When they are carrying out projects and programmes, they should be involving our offices so that we can be seen to be working together with your Ministry, hon. Minister.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Your Ministry is doing very, very well. However, because your officers are doing things behind the scenes, the people will not appreciate the good services that they are doing.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have heard some hon. Members of the Opposition in this august House say that there is corruption in the Ministry, hon. Minister. I think the Ministry is clean. I want to speak for you, hon. Minister ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Mr Ngulube: I have not heard any of your officers accused of corruption.

I am saying the truth. There are some ministries here when you mention their names, people even start running away. The Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare is a very clean Ministry. If there are any allegations of corruption in the Ministry, hon. Minister, people are not being very sincere.

 

Even those of you who have pointed fingers at the Head of State should bring evidence. I do not want people to just point at every hon. Minister and say that they are corrupt. If you have evidence, lay it on the Table. The Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) is waiting for you. Let us be supportive to this Government. Whenever they do well, let us tell them. Whenever they go wrong, let us tell them.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to conclude by saying that we have worked so hard. Therefore, as the hon. Minister responds, could she also help us by responding to some of these allegations. Too many allegations of corruption have been raised on the Government, the Head of State and everybody, but the hon. Front Bench does not respond to indicate whether these allegations are true or not. I will be grateful if the hon. Front Bench clears the air. What is happening now is that innocent people are being painted with the same brush. Those alleging corruption are painting everybody with the same brush regardless of whether one is clean or not. Please, kindly respond to these allegations. I know some of the people alleging that the Government is corrupt are more corrupt than those they are pointing fingers at.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, let us all support this ministry’s budgetary allocation. I know why corruption grows. It is probably because people are hungry. Let us remove the hunger from ordinary people’s homes, and we will see the economy of this country grow.

 

Madam, with those many words, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to also add a very short and modest debate to this important Vote. I want to agree with my colleague who debated earlier and made an observation that the hon. Minister elaborated a number of programmes for this ministry. If I had not heard it from her speech, I was going to be worried because when I looked at the output-based Budget that was presented to us, I saw very little in that document which does not match the wealth of information that came out of the hon. Minister. If the documentation was not as comprehensive, then it makes it difficult for people who would want to really understand what the ministry is trying to do.

 

Madam Chairperson, I did appreciate the fact that the mandate of this particular ministry is to provide equitable social protection amongst vulnerable groups. Indeed, this is a very large portion of our people in society as we have been reminding ourselves of the high poverty levels that currently exist in our country. However, equity is one particular aspect that we have highlighted in this august House and that the Government can do a lot to ensure that the national cake is shared equally.

 

Madam Chairperson, I took note of the output indicators in the document that I was referring to, where the ministry is looking at issues such as how many households will benefit from the Social Cash Transfer Scheme (SCTS). When I did an analysis of what amount of cash went out, they give us data from 2016 and the projection to date. From that data, you can see that the cash in that election year exceeded what the ministry had targeted to achieve. This has drastically dropped this year to less than 50 per cent. Therefore, my advice to the hon. Minister is that we should put these programmes in a systematic manner without necessarily targeting events like elections which come once in five years, with the view of wooing voters to support the Government in power. When we do that, it means that even the way the programmes will be structured, will not be in a sustainable manner that will help the vulnerable communities continue with the programmes and eventually eliminating the poverty and vulnerability levels that we are talking about.

 

Madam Chairperson, this observation is also the case when you look at the indicator on how many households the ministry assisted with in-kind support. In 2016, we reported zero against the target of 50,000 households. Equally, in 2017, the Government has reported zero in terms of the actual implementation against its target of 134,000 households. I do not know how you will attain the target of 200,000 in 2018, after the poor performance recorded in the last two years.

 

Madam Chairperson, in her presentation, the hon. Minister talked about the support that the Government will continue to give to institutions that look after vulnerable persons in our society. In future, the Government will do well to update the House on the criteria that the ministry uses to identify these particular homes that have received the ministry’s support. I noted a few that you listed in your policy statement. However, I was wondering where institutions like Kwasha Mukwenu are in this whole arrangement. This is because this is one prominent institution, which I believe would benefit from the ministry’s appropriations.

 

Madam Chairperson, in Kafue, we have an institution which has come up now and is supporting children with disabilities. This is why I want to know the criteria used when enlisting the beneficiaries of this support.

 

Madam Chairperson, as you outlined all those programmes, I was beginning to feel like your ministry is biting a little too much than it can chew given the performance that I have just put across. I heard the hon. Minister talk about the Food Security Pack (FSP). I think that this is quite good and it will help the Ministry of Agriculture, which seems to be struggling with ensuring that it undertakes some successful agriculture. The hon. Minister also talked about regulating non-governmental organisations (NGOs). I thought that that was an unnecessary burden which she placed on her ministry. I know from experience that NGOs are capable of regulating themselves. Where they go wrong, they can be corrected. I know this was the case with the NGO that I worked for and the one Her Honour the Vice-President had an opportunity to serve. Those were NGOs were issues of accountability and transparency did not arise. TASINTA was among those NGOs I am talking about. It is only now when we are hearing about NGOs getting caught up in financial mismanagement issues. I believe that the media is just taking advantage of the recent bad air all round concerning very little accountability and now everybody thinks this is the way to go and so, NGOs have found themselves falling in this trap.

 

Madam Chairperson, NGOs have sufficient mechanisms and the moment anything goes wrong with donor money, which supports most of the NGOs, they will not get away with it the way some of the Government departments get away with all audit queries. The hon. Minister will do well to concentrate on striking some meaningful partnerships with NGOs rather than trying to regulate them. This is because NGOs have comparative advantage compared to what the Government can do in certain areas. One such example is Oxfam in Chiyawa, which recently embarked on programmes to sustain livelihoods. Their work is visible and different from what the Government has been trying to do over the years where it has been taking relief food to Chiyawa yet the hunger and poverty levels never go down. Unlike the Government, Oxfam, through its little efforts, has initiated functional clubs where women are doing some gardening and growing crops. In the hot season, ...

 

I was amazed to find well watered gardens during the hot season right in Chiyawa where we did not think such things could happen. Imagine how much more could be done if the Government gave them some of the money in the Budget to do that on their behalf because that is what partnership is all about. The Ministry of Education has done that. They are now giving some money to non-governmental organisations (NGOs) which are responsible for working with community schools and they are doing a very good job. I am sure the hon. Minister can learn something from that.

Madam Chairperson, I was also looking at the keeping girls in school programme. Although the ministry has to support children who come from vulnerable homes, this programme is misplaced in this ministry. I think Forum for Africa Women Educationalists of Zambia (FAWEZA) can do a better job. If not an NGO, then the Ministry of Education might do a better job than trying to get the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to do it.

 

Madam Chairperson, for the first time I am seeing Prof. Luo agreeing with me profusely.

 

Prof. Luo indicated dissent.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, apart from that, this ministry used to implement a very successful programme called the Peri Urban Self Help (PUSH). This programme was very successful and to me this is much more attractive than going around with a bag dishing out money even to people who are not eligible, as the hon. Minister has been doing. Giving people money like that is as good as giving them a fish and not giving them the rod with which to fish. I assume this is done so that people can vote for them in future. However, I assure them that for as long as they continue dishing out money like that, as soon as they finish with the last one the first one would already be hungry and will expect more. Is the Government going to sustain that?

 

Madam Chairperson, it is an open secret that our Treasury is broke. I am not sure if that word is parliamentary, but the point I was trying to make is that we should see how we can revive this PUSH programme in the communities. The programme was very helpful because apart from just receiving support in kind or in the form of financial assistance, people used to work for the food that they were given. I think that is better than the culture of just receiving and being dependant on the Government. This should only be the case with the old people who can no longer work and those who are incapacitated in one way or another as opposed to these PF carders that we trying to appease.

 

Dr Kabanda: Question!

 

Mrs Chonya: Madam Chairperson, the Government does not have the capacity to do that. Even if the Government wanted to do this project, they are not able to manage with their own cadres, let alone the rest of the country. Therefore, the issue of inequality in the distribution will come in and it will paint a bad picture of the Government. This is just advice that I am offering to the hon. Minister, she can choose to take it or leave it.

 

Madam Chairperson, I could say the same about the Presidential Empowerment Initiative Fund, this may be the right ministry for this initiative since it is already in the business of dishing out money. This reminds me of time we had another presidential fund. At that time, it was meant to specifically woe Zambians to give a third term to one Head of State, may his soul rest in peace, but it did not help matters. If this one is coming along the same line, which is what I suspect, then it is an exercise in futility because Zambians are able to tell what is genuine and what is being done to hoodwink them.

 

Madam Chairperson, I just gave an example of how this money distribution exceeded the target in an election year, but drastically dropped this year. What has happened? Let us look at sustainable programmes that will ensure that poverty and vulnerability are addressed in our communities and that way we will realise our objectives in the 7^th National Development Plan (7^th NDP), as the hon. Minister noted. The hon. Minister was even celebrating that they now have a pillar in the 7^th NDP, but when we come to evaluate, we will find that her ministry would not have done anything unless it sharpens its strategies to ensure that we address poverty in a very systematic, non-political and equitable manner.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the Budget for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to agree with Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, who said that this ministry needs a lot of our support in order for it to deliver because it is doing great work. This ministry is going to help the people if we support it.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to commend the Government’s efforts that are being made through this ministry in providing the social cash transfer programme which is helping a lot of people. The people of Chinsali are grateful for the increased number of beneficiaries in this programme. The Ministry of Community Development and Social Services has managed to scale-up the social cash transfer programme from 2,765 beneficiaries to almost 5,551 household beneficiaries in Chinsali. I have been interacting with people at district level who have assured me that after they do the validation of the increased number of beneficiaries, they will start receiving their funds. We are happy about what the Government has done.

Madam Chairperson, although we are grateful for the increased number of beneficiaries it has been noticed that there is untimely disbursement of this social cash transfer funds. For instance, it is only now, in December, that the Government is disbursing the funds for the period July-August. If the people who are supposed to benefit from this programme had received the money at the right time, they could have done something with it at that particular time. I appeal to the hon. Minister to disburse the money in good time.

 

Madam Chairperson, transportation is an also an issue. The people who work at the social and community development office in Chinsali have a land cruiser 4x4 which manages to pass through the bad roads. However, there are some roads where they have difficulties in passing where a motorbike would be more appropriate. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to consider getting motorbikes for the areas where the roads are impassable.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Government has indicated that it intends to increase the household beneficiaries for the Public Welfare Assistance Scheme (PWAS) programme that the hon. Minister talked about from 40,000 to 80,000 household beneficiaries.

 

I would like to bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister that this programme has not been funded adequately. I do not know how we are going to manage to fund it considering that we intend to increase the number of recipients from the current 40,000 to 80,000 because we already have difficulties in funding it adequately. I do know what mechanism the hon. Minister will use or what she is going to do to ensure that this good programme which is well intended is funded adequately. What is happening is that the people who are supposed to benefit from this programme in terms of education and providing health support and other social support for the Orphans and the Vulnerable Children (OVCs) do not receive the support. What has happened is that some of them are learning on credit which is very bad for them some schools have been chasing away these vulnerable children because they have not paid the fees that they are supposed to pay. For those that are on health care support, if they are referred say from Chinsali to maybe University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and they are not empowered with that little money they need to pay at the hospital some of them actually die. Therefore if we can adequately fund this programme then it helps the poor and the vulnerable including orphans.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue I wanted to talk about on community development is what the hon. Member for Kafue was talking about regarding the keeping of the girl child in school. This is the right ministry to run that programme of keeping the girl child in school because it knows the vulnerable and orphans so it is best suited to manage this programme. My appeal to you hon. Minister is that this programme is in Muchinga, in Mafinga, but not in Chinsali. The people of Shula Village and Musanya have sent me to ask you to bring this programme to Chinsali so that the people can feel the warmth of what this hard working Government is providing to the people of Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would want to appeal to the hon. Minister that her ministry has another programme called Girl Education, Women Empowerment Livelihood Programme (GEWEL) which is not in Chinsali. This is a very good programme. The people of Chinsali admire it from Mafinga. Therefore, the people sent me today…

 

Ms Chonya laughed

 

Mr Mukosa: … that I should tell the hon. Minister to consider bringing this programme to Chinsali and other districts that are not benefiting from this programme

 

In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister ensure that statutory services are adequately funded. In her policy statement she talked about issues of statutory services like empowering vulnerable people and children who come from rehabilitation centres. When they come out they need to be empowered so that they can survive. I wish to end here and state that I support the budget estimates.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to add my voice to the policy statement from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. Hon. Minister, thank you for that policy statement. It is well appreciated and I would want first and foremost say that I totally support this ministry’s budget for 2018. I appreciate the clear outline of how the hon. Minister would want to spend that allocation. Having said that I would also want to mention that having shifted from the formula used in 2017, to output based budgeting, I would want to ask the ministry that it is very important, I think having listened to my fellow members that have added a word to your ministry, to actually say, we would want to see it the budget properly outlined. What do I mean by that?

 

Madam Chairperson, we would want to know province by province, district by district and constituency by constituency.

 

Mr Mutelo: Ward by ward.

 

Ms Mwashingwele: This is for us to see the figures in blocks, but the output is not known. If you look at Katuba for example, as of this year’s budget, only two people in my constituency were actually receiving cash transfer.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is from that premise that I would want to see that the 2018 Budget is clearly outlined so that we know and are able to follow-up on how the allocations are being distributed. It is a very good initiative, but it can be very frustrating when people ask you why they do not receive help. Then we may be able to actually balance up. Therefore, being an output based budget, it means it is actually more action oriented. We would appreciate to see that 2018, there is that effort of breaking it down further for the people, even us parliamentarians to understand and argue constructively about it. I looked at the officers that were doing the recruitment exercise for 2017, as much as we would want community based people to do the recruitment; I would also want to ask the ministry to have professional social welfare officers. Then they would understand what they are looking for in a particular person. What I noticed for the 2018 recruitment especially those that came to my constituency, were just young men and women that I see in the constituency. When I asked them what they were looking for in the recruitment they could not even explain properly to me as a Member of Parliament so that I could support that initiative. I would want to see at least… We have a lot of graduates from colleges or universities that have done social welfare studies. It is very important that they are picked to run these programmes because they are very important. When you look at the beneficiaries especially, I think I tend to refer to the social cash transfer quite often, because it is something that is taking root in the community. It is a good initiative, but it is a fish as has already been mentioned by Hon. Chonya, but I would want to emphasise. It is a fish being given to them, they will eat and forget. The other four programmes, to me, are more sustainable. Sustaining a budget of over 80,000 people across the country, if you look at our country statistically, Madam Chairperson, we have more poor people. The middle class has collapsed in this country…

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mwashingwele: …we need to be very honest with ourselves. Most of the people are actually tilting really to having very little. Therefore, you will find the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare expands and will not be able to sustain it.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon. Minister to really look at things that are sustainable. I appreciate the amounts the ministry is putting into education and into trying to give skills to the people. I think we should now graduate because we should look at the people we are giving that money. Are we going to give them money perpetually? We need to understand how we are going to wean the people off. Is it perpetual cash that you will be giving them? Or is there going to be a point when the cash transfer will be withdrawn because you will have helped these people so much. All that should be outlined. When the people are being given this money they should be told a timeframe as to how far they will be able to receive money and then we see if they are able to support themselves because you cannot sustain for twenty or thirty years. Then it would have defeated purpose. When you look at the amount of money going into …

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

 [THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Madam Chairperson, before we broke off, I was talking about the aspect of weaning off the beneficiaries of the Social Cash Transfer (SCT). I think that the SCT would be more meaningful if it was given to groups of people. These would just be groups and not necessarily, co-operatives.

 

Madam Chairperson, the K120 that is allocated to individuals may not create so much impact on one’s life. If the money was allocated to groups of maybe, thirty people, and they put it into something that they can manage and sustain, then we can arguably say that in three years time, this group would be weaned off to take on another group. Looking at the way it is done on individual basis, I tend to feel that the levels of sustainability may be a bit challenging for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. 

 

Madam Chairperson, in social welfare, there are orphans and the disabled, who are the vulnerable in our country. We can simply say that these are adults who are failing to manage themselves. The welfare of our people is extremely challenging. You will find that the base of sustaining even the social welfare may be very difficult. In 2018, I am even worried if this K1,072,953,373 will actually be given to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. The way we are managing our resources in this country makes ministries such as this one suffer the consequences because the beneficiaries are people who do not have a voice.

 

Madam Chairperson, so far, we have looked at what has been done in 2017. In her own way, I think the minister has tried so hard. It is a fact that when an economy becomes difficult, then our priorities and choices become difficult as well. In so doing, this ministry is one of those that suffer the consequences of having very little resources that are supposed to get to our people. This is a ministry which touches the people of Zambia. These are the people who are the majority of our voters. It is through this ministry that they feel something is getting to them.

 

Madam Chairperson, the K120 that will be given to the people will not even afford them a bag of mealie meal in 2018. I would want to urge the minister to be more creative. The idea is good, but we need to keep on recreating and expanding this ministry so that everyone in the country, who falls into the four categories that I have mentioned is captured. It is not an easy task. It is a noble one. The ministry has a huge task at hand.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to conclude my debate by saying that I tend to feel that in Chibombo District, Katuba is compared with Keembe in as far as resource allocation is concerned. This makes us feel disadvantaged. Usually when people talk about Chibombo, they consider more of Keembe than Katuba. Sometimes, it is the other way round. That is why I keep on saying that sometimes we need to be very specific when allocating resource. We need to be categorical and state whether that money is for a district or a constituency so that we are able to look at our figures.

 

Madam Chairperson, I cannot compare the levels of poverty in Katuba with those in Kanchibiya, Shang’ombo, Mitete and Kanchibiya. If I do so, then I will be very unfair. Katuba cannot have the same population as Shang’ombo, Mitete and Kanchibiya. Therefore, what we are crying for is equity. We would want to see some form of equity such that when I look at the figures, I will be able to say, “This is a good job.”

 

With those remarks, I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’angu (Chama North): Madam Chairperson, …

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema three piece suits aya.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: …I thank you for giving the people of Chama South this opportunity to speak on the vote for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. The Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare is one of the most important ministries particularly, to the people of Chama South because of the programmes that it is implementing.

 

Madam Chairperson, I will start with the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) programme. This programme is benefiting a lot of people, particularly, the aged, the disabled and in some instances, the child-headed households. For that, we would like to thank His Excellency, the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government for bringing up such an important initiative.

 

However, we know that funds allowing, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government would have loved the people in Mundalanga, Chitukula, Chikwa, Chifunda and Mapaba to probably get even K1,000 as Social Cash Transfer Funds. Therefore, can we relook at what has been transpiring in our country as people call for resource mobilisation for such good initiatives. Millions of dollars were externalised into tax havens. If this money was invested locally, …

 

Mr Kambita: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: … it would have been taxed and enhanced such important programmes. Members of this august House, particularly those on the left, do not want to appreciate such unpatriotic actions …

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: … by the citizens of this country.

 

Mr Mutale: Hammer, hammer:

 

Mr Mung’andu: As if that is not enough, thousands of kwachas particularly in some councils went missing. Graders were purported to have been bought by a number of councils. Some of the members who sat in those councils at that time are still in this august House.

 

Mr Kafwaya: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, if that money was put to good use, I trust and believe that the poverty levels of the underprivileged particularly the poor in Chama South would have been lowered. It is a fact that for social protection programmes to succeed, we need money. Let us look at the background of our economic challenges. This is a fact. If you want, challenge it. The Government acknowledges in some aspects that it does not have technical expertise to do all the skilled works that need to be done. Hence, it relies on private firms and individuals to assist and such a case had arisen in 1991 when this country embarked on the privatisation process.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Michelo: Question!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, we know what happened and I want to remind Zambians.

 

Mr Mutale: Yes, yes!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Probably by now, we should have been talking about other social protection mechanisms and if someone …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Fire tenders!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, a particular person would give advice to the Government, but it was later discovered that he was holding a number of assets.

 

Mr Michelo: Question!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, in Europe or developed countries, when you commit a crime today, even after twenty years, you will still be answerable. It is never too late.We need to re-open such chapters and see how clean some individuals are because a lot of resources which should have been given to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare went into an individual’s pockets.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

 

Mr Mung’andu: This is a fact.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to talk about the actions …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: … which if we are not careful as Zambians, we will end up being lured into a wrong direction. In Chama District, there is a saying in Nsenga. I will say it in my mother tongue, but I will translate it.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Which one?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, there is a saying that, para nkhumba imatika uchema matika yara as chocolate field …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Meaning!

 

Mr Mung’andu: … yafuma pa matika para ndipo nomba yiwona kuti yara nimatika ku ibeliva nkhumba yaye ilayaye.

Hon. Opposition Members:Meaning!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, meaning when a pig is in the mud, it calls it a chocolate field, but when it is out of it, it calls it mud. Do not believe such a pig.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: If anything, it is a candidate for slaughtering.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: The reason I am saying this is that some people have told people out there using this august House that there is corruption in the PF Government. However, when they were there, they never saw that corruption.

 

Madam Chairperson, …

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order on my left, and order, Mr Mung’andu! Clearly, the head under debate is the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. I am trying very hard to follow your debate and to link what you saying to the head under debate.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: There is no link.

 

The Chairperson: Unfortunately, the link is really not coming out that clearly.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: I would like you to debate the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. Get back on track.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, thank you for that guidance. I was just trying to give the background of the importance of the resources to scale up good programmes.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: In reference to some people’s utterances, would they be able to help the vulnerable and old? God forbid, if they become leaders of this country, will they continue the good programmes such as the Social Cash Transfer …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: … which is under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu:Madam Chairperson, …

 

Ms Chonya: I thank you.

 

Mr Mung’andu: … Chama District has a high rate of early childhood marriages …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: … and it stands at 34.5 per cent.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: A few days ago, I received a call from one of the teachers at Nangwa School that seven girls have been married off and only six are remaining.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: Under the good programme which the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is rolling out, …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: … the Girl Child Education Programme, the hon. Minister promised on the Floor of this august House that next year, Chama will be among the districts that will be included in that programme. I am, therefore, earnestly appealing that this be done.

 

Ms Kabanshi: Hear,, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: People in Chama South in particular, are looking forward to having women empowerment programmes. As my colleague from Kabwe said, I also believe that the hon. Minister has never been to Chama. I would like to inform her that women there are also desirous of what other women particularly in other parts of the country are receiving from her ministry.

 

Mr Phiri: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: In the 2018 Budget, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister that she must consider the women in Chama South in her programmes.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me also to sincerely thank His Excellency, President Chagwa Lungu …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: … for his tolerance. Trust you me, this democracy we are enjoying in this country …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: … where someone can wake up and insult the President on a daily basis, and he has allowed them to go on and on.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: That is a rare attribute. If it was the leader of the other people who are in this august House, Madam Chairperson, I do not know where those who insult His Excellency would have been by now.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: That is a godly heart.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Your Honour!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: This is the reason I believe this Government has continued rolling out such good programmes. I would like to appeal to the people of, not only Luapula Province, particularly the old, that it is only the PF Government that will ensure they continue getting what they are getting monthly. Social Cash Transfer Scheme is a PF Government initiative …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: Was it there during United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: During Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD)!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Not even MMD.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: It is the PF initiative.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: My appeal to the old and the disabled that are benefiting from the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) scheme is that support the PF Government through us your Members of Parliament. What I am speaking here is the voice of the people of Chama South.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: This is because we are so grateful that our mothers are now able to buy salt, soap and many other home essentials which ordinarily they would not afford before.

 

Mr Tembo: Kumba iwe!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks …

 

Mr Tembo: Kumba iwe!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: … I support the Vote.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Listen now!

 

Laughter

 

Ms Kasune (Chishimba): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, it is very hard to follow such a debate.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Because there is nothing!

 

Ms Kasune: Let me add my voice to the debate on the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and in supporting this ministry, I would like to touch on a few things because I know that few Members of Parliament have already alluded to some of the challenges, but also the needs of this ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, the biggest point that I really want to bring out, if nothing else stands out, is the escalating issue of Gender Based Violence (GBV) in our country. I think it was disturbing for some of us when we learnt that Zambia is ranks around the third in Southern Africa in relation to GBV. I am sure the hon. Minister is aware of these statistics.

 

We are aware that the reporting mechanism has improved. However, Madam Chairperson, the challenge remains when those who have survived are being victimised. In most cases there are no safe homes for them to go to. In the end, they go back to the very people that have victimised them. It is a big concern for us as Members of Parliament, especially those of us who are in rural areas where the population among girls is much higher than boys.

 

This is the call that I would love to put across to the Minister, to look into providing safe homes for survivors in every constituency. I do not want to say districts because as Hon. Mwashingwele alluded to, for example, in the situation of Keembe and Katuba, because both are in Chibombo District, you find that sometimes they put some of the resources in Chibombo District and yet Katuba is left out or vice versa. We are, therefore, asking the Minister to look into this issue because it has become a concern for us. There should be safe homes so that those who survive do not have to go back to the very homes where these vices are taking place.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to indicate here that if there is a ministry that really embodies the sustainable development goals it is the Ministry of Community of Development and Social Services. Out of the seventeen Millennium Goals, we see a lot of emphasis in eradicating poverty, hunger …

 

Mr Mubika: Hear, hear! Ema MP aya!

 

Ms Kasune: … and ensuring that the there is a gap closing in terms of gender inequality. We see that it is advocating for equal or quality access to health as well as through education. We know very well that apart from the line Ministry of General Education, and Health, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services becomes that bridge that can actually bridge that gap, if we are to achieve the sustainable development goals.

Madam Chairperson, one of the points that has been belaboured on by many of the other speakers is the issue of us ensuring that this Social Cash Transfer that is being given to the communities, should not be a continuation, but it is a hand me up so that they can be trained, empowered and become sustainable. Hence the advocate goes on to ensure that our Minister there, puts in effort ensuring that there are income generating and training activities, so that the people can go from receiving and to being able to work for themselves. Every human being knows that the worth of one as an individual come from being able to provide for themselves.

I think I have alluded to this fact several times that, I stand here as a good example of someone who was orphaned at the age of seventeen. Both of my parents died when I was that age and I became the one to take care of my family. I know the challenges of being an orphan. And so, many communities and countries would do well if they looked at how we are faring in terms of taking care of the children. As it has already been alluded to, that a country can be seen by how its young are actually performing, we as Zambians, we can only be sure of how we are performing as a country if we look at the performance of our young people.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Ms Kasune: Keembe being a rural constituency …

 

Mr Sing’ombe: You have heard! Mung’andu!

 

Ms Kasune: … sits about 82 or 85 per cent of illiteracy levels. We know very well that there is a correlation or relationship between poverty and lack of education hence the diseases such as HIV/AIDS.

 

Not too long ago, the World was celebrating World AIDS Day, and we are still of talking of 46,000 new infections each year here in Zambia. We cannot stop it by just talking about advocacy, but it is by implementing programmes that will ensure that our young girls stay uninfected and in school. That is why Zambia has to fast track in implementing the end to child marriages.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasune: This is so critical, especially to this august House, to realise that we are even lagging behind to countries such as Zimbabwe and Malawi. Malawi has also implemented programmes relating to end child marriages.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is for this reason that I would like to call upon the hon. Minister to accelerate some of the programmes in order to end child marriages because children are supposed to play and it is their right to enjoy their childhood so that when they become adults they can make good and favourable decisions.

 

Madam, another area that I heard the hon. Minister talk about, is the area of the people with disabilities. I think that for the long time now, we have looked at people with disabilities as disabled people. That is not the case because these are capable people, but they are just challenged in one way or another and hence, these are called people with disabilities.

 

Madam Chairperson, not too long ago, I remember very well that during this meeting, the hon. Mr Speaker, led ‘the HeforShe Campaign,’ which was focused and it zeroed down to the education of the people with disabilities especially the girls. As long as we do not put our recruitment in place, it is likely that those who really need help will be left out. It is for this reason that it is very important that issues of education for those disabilities especially the girls, but  even boys is brought to the forefront of the agenda of this ministry.

 

Madam, I know that the hon. Minister talked about the vulnerable people, who are in need of repatriation. For Some time now, we have watched many people especially the blind and some retirees, especially those, who have been retirement for years, camping around different ministries. Sometimes, they go to the hon. Minister’s offices so that they can be assisted to ensure that they are taken to places of the choice. It is sad to see the blind crying out for help because they needed support. Not too long ago, I saw a clip, where the blind were crying for their benefit so that they can be repatriated or taken to places where they feel they will be safe or belong.

 

Madam Chairperson, in addition, I know that orphans always touch our hearts because as children, we are cute and we are innocent in many ways and, therefore, there is nothing to talk about. I feel as a country, we need to do well in taking care of our elderly people. We have neglected them for so long. Not only that, but we also do not provide proper forums to hear their feedback. I have seen that the former Republican President, Dr Kaunda, has been given some attention and rightly so. It will be wise if we could break that down to our constituencies and communities because there are elderly people, who are our guardians. I am pleased that the hon. Minister talked about the need to also guard our culture and traditions because the elderly are the people who have so much information that we as young people may not have, hence it is important that as we look at some of these welfare services for the young people, let us also ensure that we have the places for the elderly.

 

Madam Chairperson, the issue of food security is also another subject, which the hon. Ministry needs to continue putting more efforts and emphasis. For instance, the budget for the ministry is almost like a drop in the ocean because of the needs and the challenges of what we go through as a country.

 

Madam, I stand to be corrected, but I know that some of the statistics suggest that only 10 per cent of the Zambians hold 50 per cent of the wealth of this country. In some cases, the poverty levels are as high as 85 per cent and about 65 per cent on average. Suffice to say that the bigger burden is in rural areas.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is for this reason that I would like to commend the hon. Minister for sourcing a programme from the World Bank, which is going to run for about three years, where 75,000 women are going to be empowered. This is a step in a right direction, which needs to be scaled up and also expanded to all areas of the corners of our country.

 

Madam, the issue of the Non-government organisation (NGOs) is very interesting especially that my background is from that area. In most cases, the NGOs, who are doing a good job, go out of the way to meet some of the programmes and the things that we are supposed to be done by the Government. I would like to appeal to the Government that during the implementation of the 2018, they should engage these particular NGOs as partners, look at what they can contribute and where they are so that there is no duplication of their work not only from the Government, but also from the other NGOs.

 

Madam Chairperson, as country, we need to be moving towards poverty eradication or ending it. We know that currently, the sustainable development goals are here. Not too long ago, we were talking about the millennium development goals. It is just the changing of names, but the issue at hand remains the same. This is, therefore, a ministry, which can see to it that education, which is actually the best weapon in ending the vicious cycle of poverty is enhanced. It is the only level playing field, which will bring the rich and the poor together. Therefore, I feel that it is critical that this ministry should be supported in terms of finances. Once that is completed, it should also allocate the resources equitably because at the end of the day, it is the Zambians, whom we may consider vulnerable, who may govern this country in a much better way than we may be doing. It is the same people, who should have the same rights, must be educated, have basic shelter, have food and go to school, which is every parent’s dream.

 

Madam, Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to say that whether we change the names or language in terms of what needs to be done, as a country need to domesticate the programmes, which we want to achieve because if we do not do that, even if a new set of hon. Members come, we will be talking about the same things and yet, nothing has beeofn done on the ground.

 

Madam, the issue of community schools leaves much to be desired. The conditions of some of the community schools, which are in our constituencies, do not give a good picture. In other countries, there would be condemned, but since the communities are so eager to learn and that they have realised that only education is an equalizer, they are going out of their way to pay the teachers and are learning in the grass-thatched structures, which in many ways are not even supposed to be habitable, but this is where they are learning from. I would, therefore, like to appeal to the Ministries of General Education and Community Development and Social Welfare to work together collaboratively so that the community schools are funded and run properly. We could also be helpful to ensure that when the recruitment time comes, the Government should not leave out the qualified personnel.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to be instrumental and ensure that the people who are labouring or teaching our children should be considered as a matter of priority, especially in the area of education and health because they have shown interest that they love their communities. They also have the capacity to produce good students.  The House will be amazed to hear that the passing rate in some of these schools is very good.

 

Madam, in conclusion, I would like to support and also to say there is more to be done, but together, we can make this country a better place.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kabanshi: Madam Chairperson, let me start by thanking hon. Members of Parliament who debated on this vote. Firstly, I would like to thank Hon. Kundoti, Hon. Ngulube, …

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear! 

 

Laughter

 

Ms Kabanshi: …hon. Chonya, Mukosa, Mwashingwele, Hamung’andu …

 

Laughter

 

Ms Kabanshi: … hon. Mung’andu and hon. Kasune for their contribution and also for supporting my head.

Madam, allow me to comment on a few issues which were raised by hon. Members of Parliament who contributed on the vote for the ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kundoti raised a few issues. One of them was the identification of beneficiaries for the Social Cash Transfer Scheme (SCTS). However, my brother’s comments in this regard were not factual. He also said that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare officers get money from beneficiaries. This is also not factual and I would just like to assure Hon. Kundoti that this is a working Government and it means business.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Kabanshi: We mean business in reducing poverty and inequality and also making sure that we have an inclusive society where we do not look down on street children. If we worked together on the problem that we have of street children, I think it will not …

 

Mr Nkombo: With whom?

 

Mrs Kabanshi: With you.

 

Laughter

 

Mrs Kabanshi: These things are happening because family values have broken down in this country. People have forgotten about their responsibilities and no longer value the extended family system. We are looking at ourselves as if we are from the western world and yet, we are not.

 

Mr Mwale: Mwaona manje!

 

Mrs Kabanshi: For us, family counts and family is very important.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hammer, hon. Minister!

 

Mrs Kabanshi: All of us are supposed to be keepers of those children we are seeing out there. We are also supposed to be looking after the aged that we are taking into institutions. I, therefore, I urge hon. Members that let us put our heads together and see how we are going to solve that problem. Let me thank Hon. Ngulube most sincerely …

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mrs Kabanshi: … for bringing out issues that are not only going to affect us today, but our future as well. Some hon. Members of Parliament we have in this august House keep on insulting our President.

 

Interruptions

 

Mrs Kabanshi: They keep on calling him names. What are we teaching our children? They will find that when they go to their homes, their children will be calling them thieves and saying they are corrupt because that is what we are teaching them.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, withdraw the word ‘thieves’.

 

Ms Kabanshi: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word ‘thieves’. I am not going to replace it, but they have heard me.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Kabanshi: Some of the things we say do not add value to the future of this nation. You know, sometimes I really get shocked. When our colleagues go out there and say the things they say, they should be aware what when they are pointing at the President with one finger, while the other four fingers on their hand are pointing at them.

Interruptions 

 

Mrs Kabanshi: Madam Chairperson, looking at the way some of them have been handling themselves in the past, are they clean? I leave it there and the people out there will judge for themselves. Four fingers on their own hands are pointing at them because they are the ones who are corrupt. They are the ones that are amassing questionable wealth. Our colleagues are not being truthful to themselves and the people that brought them here.

 

Mr Michelo: Just pay back our money!

 

Ms Kabanshi: Madam Chairperson, I would like to ask my sister, Hon. Chonya, to try and understand the programmes that we implement in the ministry. She talked about the programme of keeping girls in school being implemented by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare. We do not implement that programme. We target the households of the poorest of the poor to be beneficiaries of our programmes such as SCTS. Therefore, I would like her and I to share some notes so that next time she debates better from an informed position.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kabanshi: I know she is a very good debater. Hon. Chonya also talked about regulating the non-governmental organisation (NGOs).

 

Mr Nkombo interjected.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Kabanshi: What we ask the NGOs to do is to work with us as partners and that is what we have been doing all along. We do not get involved in the administration of NGOs, but we want to know what they do when they go into the communities. This is to ensure that we can have the right data on how much money is going into the communities and what impact is coming out of the programmes that we are taking in those communities.

Therefore, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government values the NGOs. They are our partners and we want to know the problems they are facing as they going out there. We want them to reach out to all the people. All the areas should be covered by the NGOs so that nobody is left behind.

 

Madam Chairperson, I promise Hon. Ngulube that I am will go to his constituency. On the issue of transport, the Government is working hard and is committed to making sure that all places are reachable. We have procured vehicles in the areas where we did not have vehicles for implementing the SCTS. Therefore, before the end of the year, Kabwe Central will receive vehicles, bicycles and motorcycles so that we can reach out to as many people as possible.

 

Madam, I would like to say that the community development assistants are all over the country. They man the sub-centres and I would like to say that these are people who work like volunteers and yet, they are government officials. Sometimes we send them where there are no houses and offices, but they are so committed that they do not even look at those things. They go and execute the programmes for the Government and I would like to thank them for that.

 

Madam Chairperson, as regards the involvement of the District Commissioners (DCs) in our programmes, they are only there to oversee what the Government is doing. The people who enumerate the beneficiaries are the communities themselves. The DCs only monitor the programmes together with the officers. I would like to say that the officers have got no contact with money. Therefore, there is no way they can go and ask beneficiaries to pay them. The people who pay beneficiaries are the pay point managers who are from other ministries. I would like to tell Hon. Kundoti, just in case he does not know, because I know he does not go to his constituency …

 

Laughter

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kundoti: On a point of order, Madam!

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Kundoti, please take your seat. Hon. Minister, please also take your seat.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, you cannot debate your colleagues in that manner. You have an opportunity to explain to the House and through the House to the nation about your programmes, which you have done. There are now specific issues that you need to address. It is a great opportunity. Use this platform to explain so that your colleagues in this august House can understand and support you as they go to their constituencies. Please, continue.

 

Ms Kabanshi: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for your guidance. I promise you that I am going to stick to reacting to the issues that were raised on the Floor of the House. Last month, the officers from other ministries who are the pay point managers did not disburse any monies. The beneficiaries of the SCTS in the Western and Luapula Provinces were paid by the post office. The report which was shared with me, and I still have it on my table, stated that the payment went very successfully. We got a lot of positive responses from the Western and Luapula Provinces and I would just like to thank the post office for a job well done.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other issues that were raised were rampant early marriages and illiteracy levels. Those issues are being handled, not only by my Ministry, but the Ministry of General Education and the Ministry of Gender. At the moment, we do not operate in isolation, but in a cluster. We have a cluster where we implement all the social protection programmes with other ministries. The ministries under the cluster are: Ministry of Health, Ministry of General Education, Ministry of Labour and Social Security and Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development. We solve these problems together. I know very well that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is fighting to reduce poverty because we have invested in communities and improved the economic environment of those areas. It is not only the beneficiaries who are benefiting from the monies that are being pumped in those constituencies or districts, but people doing business in those areas.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank, once again, the hon. Members of Parliament who debated this Head. I also thank them for supporting it.

 

 I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Members will note that the format of the budget for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare is output based. Therefore, I will be calling out programmes and not departments.

 

VOTE 4501 – (Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare – Social Assistance - K738,267,100).

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Chairperson, under this Programme, there is Activity 001 – Social Cash Transfer (1) – K731,267,100, Activity 002 – Public Welfare Assistance Scheme – K721,180,000 and Activity  003 –  Care of Older Persons – K987,500.

 

I would like some clarification on Activity 002 – Public Welfare Assistance Scheme – K721,180,000 and Activity 001 - Social Cash Transfer (1) – K731,267,100. I would like some clarification in nominal and percentage terms, on the increase in terms of the amounts provided for the beneficiaries.

 

The Chairperson: Mr Lufuma, we are looking at Programme 4501, Social Assistance, in the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure (Output Based Budget) Volume 2 for the Year 1^st January, 2018, to 31^st December, 2018. Is that where you are?

 

Mr Lufuma: Yes, that is where I am.

 

The Chairperson: What is the page number? The pages are at the bottom.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, it is Page 7, Programme 4107, Social Assistance. Is that the Programme you mentioned? I think that is the Programme you mentioned.

 

The Chairperson: Just follow me. We are on Page 8, which says: 1.5 Budget Allocation by Economic Classification: Programme 4501: Social Assistance. Then, there is the purpose of this Programme. Then there is Economic Classification. General Operations is under Goods and Services. Then you have Transfers, Subsidies and Other Payments.

 

Is that where you are asking? This is where you need to ask. There is 001 under heading number three labelled as Transfers, Subsidies and Other Payments.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I think I will pass. I was on page 7.

 

The Chairperson: Alright, just follow. The programmes have been broken down.

 

Vote 4501 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 4502 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 4503 – (Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare - Community Development – K170,708,351).

 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 

Under Programme 4503, Community Development, Sub-Programme 001 Community Development Provisions, by the deletion of K10,546,801 and the substitution therfor of K10,246,821.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I would like to know why there are no comparative figures under the column for 2017, when this is not an entirely new Programme at all. This has been implemented before, and the budget was approved here.

 

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Welfare, are you able to answer that or the hon. Minister of Finance will answer?

 

The hon. Minister of Finance may answer.

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, the reason is that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare has migrated to output based budgeting for the first time this year. We do not have the numbers for 2017, because the programmes have been drastically changed in output based budgeting. Next year, you will have the comparators, hon. Member.

 

I thank you, Madam. 

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 4503, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 45/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 45/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 45/05 – (Management and Support Services – K59,294,671).

 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Programme 45/03, Management and Support Services, Sub-Programme 001 Management and Support Provisions, by the deletion of K30,861,090 and the substitution therefor of K31,161,090.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 45/05 as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 65 – (Ministry of Higher Education – 1,974,006,709).

 

The Minister of Higher Education (Prof. Luo): Madam Chairperson, I would like to start by thanking you most sincerely for according me the opportunity and privilege of addressing this august House by presenting a policy statement, which will guide the operations of the Ministry of Higher Education in 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me also hasten to thank His Excellency, the President of this Republic, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, for again giving me this rare honour and opportunity and privilege to preside over a very important ministry, which is the precursor to development in any nation. You recall that in his speech to this august House, the President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, stated that the Government will continue to invest in human capital development for a smart Zambia and inclusive development.

 

Madam Chairperson, in view of this statement by His Excellency the President, the ministry has focused the 2018 Budget Estimates on the development of human resources. It is this human resource development that this country’s development agenda will be anchored upon complemented by thriving research and development, science, technology, innovation and entrepreneurship.

 

Madam Chairperson, in my address to this august House today, I will highlight some of the reforms we have embarked on, as a ministry, that will help us realise this objective from 2018 and beyond. The reforms in the Ministry of Higher Education will be the basis for change and will drive education as skills development, science, technology, innovation and entrepreneurship. In fact, it is important for all of us to start appreciating the fact that the cornerstone to development is education and nothing else.

 

Madam Chairperson, before I proceed with my address, allow me to remind this august House of the mandate that is bestowed upon the Ministry of Higher Education. The ministry is mandated to formulate and implement policies, set and enforce standards and regulations, license and supervise higher education, promote science, technology and innovation and promote skills through technical education, vocational and entrepreneurial training. This mandate clearly shows that the ministry is central to the country’s development process, especially as espoused by the Seventh National Development Plan (7^th NDP) which calls for a diversified and resilient economy through value addition, product promotion and marketing.

 

Madam Chairperson, to achieve the aspirations of our very ambitious, but achievable transformation agenda, our country requires a critical mass of human capital with the required skills to spearhead the development agenda. This human capital should not only be well trained in all areas, but must focus on science, technology, innovation, entrepreneurship and also be appropriately skilled in areas that will drive and guide industrialisation, tourism, agriculture including value addition processes to increase productivity. This is the mandate bestowed upon my ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, as we acknowledge that adequate and relevant skills and knowledge are the driving forces of economic growth and social development for any country, it goes without saying that developing the skills and competencies of our people in Zambia is key to fostering progress. This makes the 2018 Budget for my ministry very important as it will support interventions that seek to promote sustainable development by fostering skills and knowledge.

 

The 2018 Budget is also significant as it comes at a time when the country is embracing the 7^th NDP based on an integrated multi-sectoral approach to development. This Budget will, therefore, set the pace and foundation upon which the 7^th NDP will be implemented and delivered.

 

Madam Chairperson, before I venture into presenting the ministry’s Estimates of Expenditure for 2018, allow me to outline the performance and achievements registered by the ministry in 2017. The human development cluster, under which my ministry falls, plays an important role in the realisation of the tenets of the 7^th NDP and ultimately the vision of being a prosperous middle income country by 2030. This is because the means to development of healthy, skilled and productive nation and innovation requires a labour force which is well skilled. The ministry in 2017, contributed to the development outcome through interventions in university education, skills development, science technology innovation and entrepreneurship.

 

Madam Chairperson, I will begin with university education. During 2017, the main policy drive for the ministry under university education was to improve quality and increase equitable access to university education. The ministry also focused on the operationalisation of the Higher Education Loans and Scholarship Board. As this august House is aware, the ministry put in motion, reforms such as the restructuring of public universities and alternative financing strategies for these universities such as introducing the programme or alumni, refocusing research for these universities and putting in place a vehicle to deliver consultancies. The operationalisation of these reforms, most of which will take effect in 2018, ...

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

 

 [THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, as I was saying, this august House is well aware, that the ministry put in motion reforms such as the restructuring of public universities and alternative financing strategies for these universities such as the alumni programme, refocusing research and consultancies. The operationalisation of these reforms, most of which will take effect in 2018, will see a total transformation of our university education sub-sector. I will discuss some of the details in my address this afternoon as I share our aspirations as a ministry for 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry made progress towards meeting set targets by increasing the number of entrance into universities from 52,131 in 2016 to 75,520 in 2017. This represents an increase of 48.8 per cent. The ministry also developed and reviewed 130 university curricula to align them to the needs of industry. The ministry and some universities such as the Copperbelt University have also engaged industry in order to improve the linkages between skills development at the work place. To enhance the creation of new knowledge, the public university undertook 173 research projects in 2018. The ministry will be looking to support the up-scaling of these research projects into tangible products for the market where possible.

 

Infrastructure Development

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to increase access to university education, the ministry continued with the construction of Kapasa Makasa, Paul Mushindo and King Lewanika Universities. Additionally, the construction of students’ hostels at the UNZA, CBU and Mulungushi Universities and other expansion works at Kwame Nkrumah, Palabana, Chalimbana and Mukuba University also continued and are progressing well in spite of the financial and other constraints the country may be facing.

 

Loans and Scholarships

 

Madam Chairperson, in a bid to provide a sustainable financing mechanism for learners, my ministry commenced the process of operationalising the Higher Education Loans and Scholarships scheme by appointing and inaugurating the board. The board has the task to operationalise the Student Loans and Scholarship Scheme and is expected to develop mechanisms for loan administration and recoveries. Once implemented, this will provide for a self sustained fund that will enable a larger number of beneficiaries to access university education in the long-run. So far, a total of 4,000 student loan beneficiaries have been identified on the Government payroll through the payroll management and establishment control system. The recovery process for these employees will commence in 2018 and we shall continue using the system that we have developed to capture more beneficiaries through the support of the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). A sustainable financing system is critical especially with the increasing demand for higher education.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am appealing to those of us who are sitting in this august House who were students of UNZA to give me their names so that I can capture them.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mulenga: Eh ma minister aya!

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, the Higher Education Authority has registered at total of sixty-one private universities thus far. However, notwithstanding, the ministry has been very concerned with the huge number of universities being registered. This has been caused deficiency in the law which I am at the moment amending. I am pleased to report that the ministry is currently working on amending this law. Furthermore, the authority has commenced the accreditation process for programmes so that the universities can accredit their programmes in relation to the lecturers in these institutions. These lecturers will have to be fulltime. This will ensure that all the universities indicate the number of fulltime lectures by photograph and also show that they are appropriately trained with qualifications befitting teaching in a university.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have been exposed to institutions where a person with a diploma is teaching students to obtain a degree. Going forward, and as will be highlighted in the plans for 2018, the Higher Education Authority will be expected to commence stringent inspections to ensure adherence to the standards and registration guidelines for universities. With this we shall see a clamp down in the mushrooming of universities across the country.

 

Establishment of Universities

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to enhance quality and improve efficiency in the provision of university education, the ministry has affiliated the three newly upgraded universities of education, namely; Chalimbana, Kwame Nkrumah and Mukuba to UNZA, Mulungushi and CBU, respectively, for a period not exceeding five years. It is envisaged that affiliated universities will be provided with technical support in the establishment of university governance structures, systems and institutional capacities to enable them perform to acceptable university standards through this activity.

 

Recruitment commensurate to the desired levels in a university will also be carried out. This is because we inherited lecturers in these universities who when evaluated do not have the qualifications to teach in a university.

 

Madam Chairperson, as part of the reforms highlighted earlier in my address, the ministry is reviewing the educational system science and skills sector to streamline the existing structures. This will entail reviewing the operational structures of some of our statutory bodies in order to reduce administrative costs and enhance effectiveness. A technical team comprising targeted institutions that Government and other relevant stakeholders has already been set up and commenced its work.

 

Skills development

 

Madam Chairperson, the main focus of the ministry in 2012, was to increase access to TEVET through infrastructure development, expansion of a two tier career pathways, revision of the TEVET curriculum to better align it to national development aspirations, improving pedagogical training and qualifications, upgrading for instructions, and completing and equipping trades training institutes under construction. This was expected to improve the quality of service delivery and skills in our labour force. The Ministry has also embarked on developing a Skills Development Strategy for the country. This strategy has also been informed by the industry needs.

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to report to this august House that the ministry increased access to TEVET from 38,840 in 2016, to 40,108 in 2017. Further, the ministry has successfully completed the construction of Mwense Trades Training Institute which is ready for operations in January 2018. Furthermore, the ministry is finalising the construction of Isoka and Kalabo Trades Training Institutes which are targeted for completion in 2018, while Lundazi, Sesheke, Mumbwa and Mporokoso Trades are progressing well. In addition, the ministry will continue to construct additional infrastructure at trades training institutes in Chipata, Petauke, Luanshya and Lusaka’s Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce.

 

Madam Chairperson, to improve quality in training and ensure that the youth are equipped with requisite life serving skills that will enable them not only to be self employed, but also be able to create work for other youths, the ministry equipped four trades training institutes with furniture and Information Communication Technology (ICT) equipment. This was with the support of the African Development Bank (AfDB). The ministry will also commence the development of an apprenticeship framework with the support of the International Labour Organisation (ILO) and other development partners. This will give learners workplace experience during their training. This will also help to reduce the gap between the classroom and the workplace.

 

Science and technology

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has adopted science and technology to the transformation and development agenda set out in this country’s development plans. To this end, the ministry has been supporting forty-two researchers in science related fields for training at masters and PHD level. This was comprised of twenty-two new science and technology female post graduate scholarships and nineteen continuing students.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: In addition, seventy-nine lecturers in science, engineering and mathematics…

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema policy statements aya!

 

Prof. Luo: …are currently undergoing training at diploma, bachelor’s degree, master’s degree and PHD. These lecturers are sponsored by the support of the Africa Development Bank to accelerate science and technology education. This is under a project known as STEPS. Many other students are being supported by other bilateral donors such as the Government of Russia, China, India Cuba, Tunisia and Morocco and most recently, we signed an agreement with the Government of Turkey. The ministry will continue to get support from other bilateral donors. Let me hasten to say, Madam Chairperson, that in the quest to ensure that the students get attachment my Government has negotiated for fifty places with the Government of Israel for attachments in agriculture. We had our first grandaunt this year in September.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry will also continue to support research and development in the country through the provision of funds to support research. In 2017, the ministry supported six-two projects under the science and technology institution through the strategic research fund. To further demonstrate our commitment to research, the ministry is establishing a ground receiving station in Chibombo District under the auspices of the National Remote Sensing Centre. A total of K18 million was spent in 2017, on the procurement of this equipment and supportive infrastructure. The station will be used to process satellite imaging that will support physical planning…

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Resource mapping and will also support and provide data necessary for agricultural planning and disaster mitigation.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, all these gains I have outlined now show our ministry’s resolve to continue developing the country and improving the livelihoods of our people.

 

Madam Chairperson, I will now go pronounce my ministry’s plan and aspirations for 2018…

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lou: …including the estimates of expenditure to realise these aspirations.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: In 2018, the ministry has set out to continue and build on the achievements of 2017, and ensure that long term goals of making Zambia a prosperous middle income country is realised. The ministry will continue to pursue the objectives and targets set out in the 2017, to 2018 Medium Term Expenditure Framework and will continue to deliver its mandate through four main programmes namely; university education, skills development, science, technology innovation and entrepreneurship and management and support services.

 

Madam Chairperson, to implement these programmes a total of K1.974 billion has been allocated to the ministry compared to K1.454 billion in 2017. This reflects an increase in the allocation of 35 per cent from the 2017 allocation. Out of this allocation, K1.34 billion which represents 73 per cent has been allocated to university education. While K361 million which represents 18 per cent has been allocated to skills development. Science and technology and innovation has been allocated K127 million representing 6.4 per cent of the total budget and K52 million representing 2.6 per cent has been provided for management and support services in the ministry.

 

University Education

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2018, my ministry plans to reform university education and will continue with reforms initiated in 2017. The focus of these reforms will be to enhance university education, research, technology, publications and consultancy, the essence for which university education should exist. Priority will also be placed on making all public universities financially self-sustaining and well-funded.

 

Madam Chairperson, in January, 2018, the ministry will commence dismantling of the huge debt in our public universities and K197.1 million has been provided in the 2018 Budget to meet this undertaking. Through the Budget, universities will be expected to be more accountable and the focus areas will include enhancing research activities and prudent resource management. Further, collaborative research with industry, especially with the private sector to meet market needs, will be the preoccupation of the ministry in 2018, while increased partnerships with private sector through Public Private Partnership (PPP) to enhance resource mobilization for universities will also be encouraged. Going forward, our universities should be echelons of knowledge creation with research and publications that will help to replace them in the academic map and earn them recognition both at the regional and global level.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the quest to embrace decentralisation, the ministry has earmarked the restructuring of the University of Zambia (UNZA) to break it into specialised university colleges. It is anticipated that this will result in enhanced efficiency and effectiveness in the administration of the oldest and largest university that has been sinking because we would like to claim it, “the old glory.”

 

Madam Chairperson, to augment these reforms, the ministry will be committed to increase access university education through the construction of new universities in Mansa and Kasama, under the FTJ Chiluba University Project. Construction works will also continue at King Lewanika and Paul Mushindo Universities. Further, construction of additional infrastructure at Kapasa Makasa, Chalimbana, Kwame Nkrumah and Mukuba Universities will continue and additional student hostels at UZA, the Copperbelt University (CBU) and Mulungushi University. A total of K231 million has been allocated to support university infrastructure development.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2018, the ministry also plans to commence the construction of three new university colleges in Kabompo, Katete and Nalolo Districts, with the support of development partners. This will particularly, improve the training of science and mathematics teachers across the country and answer to the needs of science and mathematics teachers, especially at secondary level.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to enable full migration of Chalimbana, Kwame Nkhurumah and Mukuba Universities to university status, K16 million has been allocated to each of the three universities. This allocation is meant to address personnel related obligations including separation of staff under the old structures and engaging of competent and qualified lectures for the universities. It is also meant to support the development of structures and systems during the transitions period that will enable the successful establishment of the three universities.

 

Madam Chairperson, despite the establishment and operationalisation of higher education authority to regulate university education, the country continues to see an epidemic of mushrooming of illegal universities while the authority has made strides in the formal registration of universities and will start accreditation process to assure standards, enforcement of the law through inspections and prosecutions of illegal establishments is yet to commence.

 

Madam Chairperson, to enhance the operations of the authority, the ministry has increased the allocation by 300 per cent of its 2017 provision from K6 million to K22 million in order for the institution to recruit inspectors and enhance the accreditation process. This will see the cleanup of the sector and shutting down of illegal and unregistered universities, but also universities that are parading to be universities that do not have the quality teachers.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has also increased allocations to the Zambia Qualifications Authority by over 120 per cent of the 2017 allocation to also enable it become fully operational and carry out its mandate and ensure that people who are working in our institutions are qualified. A review of the operational function of these institutions will be undertaken in 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, in a bid to fully operationalise the student loan scheme, the ministry has allocated K557 million to the fund for 2018. The allocation will increase as recoveries from beneficiaries commences in January, 2018. This will increase student coverage and provide access to more learners to university education.

 

Skills Development

 

Madam Chairperson, with relation to skills development, we have allocated a total of K361 million in order to enhance quality and increase access to technical education, vocational and entrepreneurship training (TEVET). However, there has been a reduction in the overall allocation to skills development due to the reduction in the skills development fund from K236 million in 2017, to K176 million in 2018. This is because in 2017, K236 million was an estimate. Our actual collection is K176 million.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to applaud the private sector for their contribution to the Human Development skills levy, particularly, those that are in the industry. The levy has enabled the establishment of human resource skills development fund (SDF) and through this fund, we have been able to provide scholarships to our students. We have improved skills and qualifications for lecturers. We have improved infrastructure and intend to upgrade it even further. We have also contributed to the provision of equipment and learning materials in our institutions. This fund will go a long way in developing skills for national development.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has also increased grants to selected rural based TEVET institution from K68.4 million in 2017, to K85.6 million in 2018, in order to improve the conditions of training in these institutions. This increase will help to improve quality in these institutions. This has been made possible through the rationalization, financing freed up for Government by the human resource skills development levy.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2018, the ministry will continue with on-going construction works. In this regard, K59.9 million has been allocated for infrastructure development for skills institutions. The ministry has targeted to upgrade lecturer qualifications, but also provide state of the art equipment to trades training institutions across the country through this levy. To further increase access to TEVET, K18 million has also been allocated to the TEVET Bursary.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry plans to scale-up the revision of the curricula in these institutions and this is expected to contribute to the development of skills required for the implementation of programmes under the key focus areas of the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP). The provision of an allocation for the vocational pathway under the two tier career pathway is meant to further improve the education system and increase survival skills amongst young people and also making young people relevant to the needs of the industry. This will improve knowledge on value addition of our products and wealth creation among the youth.

 

Science and Technology

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry recognises the huge role in the diversification agenda of the country and will also be crucial in supporting value addition to products for the market. In this regard, the priority areas for the ministry of science and technology for 2018 will be:

 

1. development of a the policy framework and the centre for nuclear, science and technology in Zambia;

 

1. construction and equipping of the ground receiving station in Chibombo;

 

1. supporting research and development especially in institutions of higher learning;

 

1. support the development of a high cadre of researchers and scientists;

 

1. supporting innovation, commercialisation and uptake of science products; and

 

1. strengthening the institutional framework of science, technology and innovation and also, the construction of our nuclear centre.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Government in 2018 intends to harness partnerships with regional and international development partners in order to take full advantage of the advancements made in other countries that can work well for our country. To this end, the ministry has allocated K4 million as counterpart financing to support projects and programmes under the Southern African Science Service Centre for Climate Change and Adaptive Land Management (SASSCAL) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Additionally, the ministry in November 2017, co-hosted the Global Research Council Africa Regional Meeting and the Science Granting Council Initiative Global Forum which attracted over twelve countries globally. These meetings were hosted on the margins of the science week held each year.

 

Madam Chairperson, in line with the Seventh National Development Plan (7^th NDP) and the Government’s agenda to promote the safe use of nuclear technology for agricultural, health and energy purposes, the ministry has allocated K6.1 million …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Water!

 

Prof. Luo drank water

 

Prof. Luo:… – yes – to support the establishment of the interim secretariat for the Nuclear Centre and Technology in Zambia. The ministry has also established a new budget line to encourage youth inventiveness for wealth and job creation to enhance youth employability called the Science and Technology Youth Innovation Fund with an allocation of K4.2 million. This allocation will be used to support the development of youth projects from schools through the Junior Engineering Technical Society (JETS), out-of-school children and will support the creation of centres of excellence in the teaching and learning of Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (STEM).

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has also reallocated funds under infrastructure to provide for the construction of a laboratory at the National Institute for Scientific Industrial and Research (NISIR) in Kitwe and facilities in Chibombo for the National Remote Sensing Centre (NRSC). These facilities will house the equipment that has been procured for the two science and technology institutions. The ministry in an effort to revamp NISIR has allocated a total of K10 million to liquidate personnel and statutory debt at the institution and improve operational effectiveness through a functional and structural review.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: … my address to this august House, I wish to appeal to all the stakeholders in the various portfolio areas of the ministry to be part of this budget execution by contributing to the achievement of the deliverables set out in this document. The onus is on all of us to change this sector. Let me remind you that the precursor to development is education. As a Government, we will provide the necessary guidance, incentives and resources to support interventions in this sub-sector. Therefore, I look forward to the support and participation especially by the hon. Members of Parliament and the private sector and wish to thank you all. May God bless Zambia.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to comment on the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Higher Education. I rise to support it with a very heavy heart. To begin with, I would like to make a preamble which I think has significant policy implications in terms of how we ought to manage higher education in this country as well as science and technology.

 

Madam Chairperson, on 6^th August, 1991, the World Wide Web (WWW) became publicly operational. The creator of the WWW, a computer scientist, Tim Berners-Lee, gave birth to a new technology which would fundamentally change the world as we know it. We now have the WWW, web browser and WiFi. We are now living in an age of information recorded in binary computing systems …

 

Mr Livune: That is right!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … called digitally information or digital technology.

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, digital technologies offer new ways to connect, collaborate, conduct and it touches the core of all business functions and even the way organisations are managed. We are now living in the era of the internet.

 

Madam Chairperson, the purpose of giving that preamble is that countries that are currently serious with transforming their higher education systems are focusing on how to educate a digital technology generation. That is where the focus is. The digital technology generation for countries which are very serious is the age group between 35 years and below. This is the age group which is the driving force of economic transformation of societies. Clearly, hon. Minister, we should focus on the trending development of a digital technology generation in our country.

 

Madam Chairperson, what does this imply? It means of course that we have to pay very serious attention to the entrants of the education system and make them digitally technologically prepared.We must see to it that those in the school system are digital technologically trained. We must see to it that those entering the universities and colleges are digital technologically prepared to gain maximum benefit from these institutions. The lecturers must equally be digitally technologically prepared. The curriculum and methodology of teaching must be digitally technologically relevant. This means that we must ensure that digital technology is in the hands of all our pupils and students so that they are able to gain digital technology literacy, knowledge and skills. This means that every student in the university or college must have digital technology in their hands including those in primary and secondary schools and out-of-school.

 

The question is: Can we fund this? The answer is yes, we can actually fund it. What other countries are doing this, Madam Chairperson, given the attractiveness of Africa, they are actually saying, for every infrastructure development going on in our country, 2 per cent of the money goes towards digital technology generation development. Imagine if 2 per cent of the US $1.2 billion which is going to construct Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriage Way, was going towards digital technology generation development, we can realise US$ 24 million. It can be done.

 

There are many other contracts that we have gone to. Imagine if 2 per cent of the infrastructure projects we have signed in this country was allocated to digital technology generation development, we would have enough money to ensure that every child going to school has a tablet in their hands and every student entering college or university has a laptop in their hands.

 

Therefore, the idea here, hon. Minister of Finance and hon. Minister of Higher Education, through the Chair, is that we must think differently and think outside the box. We have a task to develop our digital technology generation in this country in order to move the country forward and it can be done. Let us do it. This is the philosophical underlining policy thrust of countries that are serious about transforming their economies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

 

Interruptions

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We hope, hon. Minister, through the Chair, as she rethinks of transforming higher education, science and technology, this is the way to go.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: She must request the hon. Minister of Finance to make money available for the development of digital technology generation. Therefore, let us built into those contracts the various contracts that we are signing in this country a proportion that will go towards transforming this country’s human resource base.

 

This is in line with harnessing the demographic dividend of our youth. This is looking forward to Africa 2063, which requires innovative thinking in our policy direction in all sectors including higher education science and technology. Now, that is the philosophical thrust of how we should do things.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me now focus a little bit on some of the policy issues that are embedded in the statement. Clearly, sixty-one private universities is a disservice to this country. The reason for establishing higher education authority was to control and monitor the mushrooming of private universities.

 

Way back in the 1980s, there were debates about the need to guard against credentialism. There was also debate guarding against diploma disease. There was debate against guarding the development of glittering array of credentials like diplomas or degrees that have no professional standing. If we are not careful, the mushrooming of private universities, which are just money making universities, will result in the development of human resources that will be squares pegs in round holes and that will clog the development of our economy.

 

Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear! Square hole in round pegs!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Therefore, the Minister of Higher Education through the Higher Education Authority must ensure that we have proper universities. For instance, we have private universities in this country which were set up through the back door. We have them in the markets and in private homes. That is unacceptable. We know how it is to teach in a university. We know what it is to produce a PhD student. We know how to produce a Masters student and clearly a situation where a grade twelve fellow, with two years of certificate is teaching an undergraduate is unacceptable. In order to be of service to the nation, let us ensure that we give proper guidance to the development or establishment of private universities.

 

Coming to the issue of transformation of University of Zambia (UNZA) into university colleges, I would say that this should be given proper rethinking. I think that some research must be done. As we all know, the University of Zambia was developed after the Lockwood Report of 1965, which of course came up with a university that will be based on the school system. Clearly, a college system of university is an expensive model. Some of us have been to universities most likely with the hon. Minister of Higher Education herself, through the Chair, where the organisation of the university is along the college system, it is expensive. The administration becomes top-heavy. Therefore, give it a bit more thought. Do not rush into it because it requires research and consultation.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Do not rush into that it will prove to be more expensive than probably it might be.

 

Now, coming to the budget of the Ministry of Higher Education and looking at the figures, clearly, it indicates that a lot of efforts must be made to negotiate with the Ministry of Finance. This year, the infrastructure construction programme was only given 24 per cent of the budget. The hon. Minister budgeted for K290.9 million, but she was only give K70 million. Only K70 million out of K290.9 million, that is insufficient. She may have high ambitions in terms of infrastructure, but the release of funding is very low.

 

When it comes to student loans and scholarships, again, K30.5 million was not released this year. If we look at the strategic research support, 34 per cent of what she budgeted for was not released. Clearly here we have a problem. In terms, what she is budgeting for and is being released. This clearly is going to affect her operation. Much as the hon. Minister would like to accomplish as many things as she possibly wishes to accomplish in order to enhance the development of higher education, science, technology, entrepreneurship and so on, but the release of funds is not commensurate with the plans.

 

Madam Chairperson, coming to the budget for this year on scholarships and loans, K557 million has been budgeted for that. If it is true that we have 75,000 students, that translates into K7,000 per head, which is insufficient in terms of meeting the cost of university education. Therefore, these are very serious matters. This sector has a lot of problems and there is need to address the issues giving attention to what the Ministry of Finance can do to enhance her plans objectives and goals.

 

Madam Chairperson I thank you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Madam, Chairperson, I must start by saying that this s a very important vote. It is high time as a country we probably started putting this vote as number one.

 

Madam, there is no substitute to higher education. There is no country on earth that has developed without the channel of higher education not even one. I know that in Zambia or maybe in Africa people think that because they have become rich by trading, then, that is the way to go as a country. Trading does not take you anywhere. Yes, business will make an individual and a family rich, but to develop the country, we need higher education and knowledgeable human resource. We do not need primary education or secondary education like many people are priding in it to develop the country.

 

I have heard many people giving examples of people like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Page and Sarge Byrne that they were failures. They were not failures. They are higher education graduates. They all left school in higher ecrones of education when they found out exactly what can move the country. It is not that they failed because not even one of them failed. For example, Mr Buffet, who is said to have quite some reasonable education, is a person who has spent 80 per cent of his free time at home reading what everyone else studies at schools in higher education. Therefore, there is no substitute for higher education. If we really want to move this country forward, this is the area where we must pay attention. We must pay a lot of attention to ensure that the big percentage of our people have higher education.

 

Madam Chairperson, this leads me to the hon. Minister’s statement. She has made a very good statement. The problem is that a very good statement like this is not backed by anything. I know she talked about being happy because she has been given K1.9 billion, while last year, she was given K1.4, but really, nothing of value happened last year.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Simbao: Therefore, if that was the case last year, what is the extra K500 going to do this year?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Nothing!

 

 Mr Simbao: Madam, this is not enough.  I will come to that to show and give examples, where we have problems with higher education.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the meantime, I would like to talk about the mushrooming of universities, which she talked about. I am glad that she said it in a very strong statement because it is not something she supports. I am glad that she has said so.

 

Madam, I have an example of a professor, who was fired by the Ministry of Education because his diploma was forged. This person disappeared off the Zambian scene for a while. The next time he resurfaced, he was a doctor. As I am talking, he is a professor. He is today giving degrees, masters programmes or whatever or whatever and yet he is a complete failure.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Simbao: These are the kind of some of the private universities we currently have.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have an idea of the some universities, where a masters holder is supervising a PhD holder.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Simbao: Therefore, this is not the kind of higher education that we are talking about and I am glad that she came out so clearly on those terms. In this particular case, I would like to suggest that amongst all the courses that we run in the country, I would like to take a leaf the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) because it levels the ground for anyone who calls themselves a lawyer. Once someone goes through ZIALE then, everyone will know that one learnt the correct things. Unfortunately, this does not happen in other disciplines. I would like the hon. Minister to consider doing the same especially in the discipline of engineering. I would like her to consider something similar to ZIALE. Anyone who graduate as an engineer be at the University of Zambia (UNZA) or wherever they are offering these degrees, they have a body like ZIALE, where they should prove that they truly went  enginethroughering course must be. It must be the same with medicine.

 

Madam, although she did not talk about medicine, so many schools of medicines at the moment there, which is really a big bother. I want to bring to the attention of the House that I participated in the creation of the Ndola Medical School and I want to say that it is not a simple thing to have a have a school of medicine. Therefore, it really amazes me how almost every hospital is a teaching hospital.Therefore, I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister to consider coming up with something like ZIALE, where all these so called doctors irrespective of where they are coming from can go and prove themselves before they are meant to work on people ...

 

Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao: … or else, we have so many people that are really failing to work as doctors, but they already carry the title. They are already employed and they are getting paid. Therefore, I would like to that hon. Minister to seriously look at something like ZIALE.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say that countries like Singapore and South Korea are where they are because of higher education and they paid a lot of attention to it. Higher education came on top of all their priorities and they managed to change their countries. Suffice to say that we have a country in this country because this is one area, which has suffered since independence.

 

Madam Chairperson, if the House could remember the history of Zambia, there only 100 graduates at Independence. I also believe that there was only one doctor. Of course, we have not moved so much in this area. The reason is that when a person graduates for example, as an engineer and goes into industry, such a person is reduced to almost nothing. What I mean is that when one goes into university, there is a school of Natural sciences and there are also Schools of Humanities and Social Sciences other schools, but to enter into the School of Natural Sciences, one should have scored very high marks in sciences.

 

Madam, today, we have a problem to encourage people to study sciences. Let me tell the House that if something is not chemistry, physics, maths or engineering then, it is nature, because there is no other way you can explain it.

 

Hon. Members: Yes!

 

Mr Simbao: Therefore, it is either science or it is nature. We have people who are scared to take sciences. The same people who spend so much time and sleep very few hours every day are the lowest paid such that they start moving to others courses. I know of engineers who have turned into accountants. Believe me, anyone who does courses in sciences such as chemistry or physics, there is nothing he/she can fail to do.

 

Mr Bwalya: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao: These are the people that we should pay a lot of attention to, but we are not.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to tell the hon. Minister that there is a very big problem at thesepublic institutions of higher learning. An example is the University of Zambia (UNZA). If you go to the engineering laboratories at UNZA, you are going to find obsolete equipment on which students are being trained. This equipment is even written NRG, which stands for Northern Rhodesia Government. That is the equipment that is in these laboratories at this university. As a result, students who graduate have a problem to upgrade on their own to be able to use modern equipment.

 

Madam, another example is UNZA’s Ridgeway campus, where students study anatomy. You find that the work desks in laboratories are always crowded. In my time at UNZA, there were only two people per work desk. Today there are eight or nine people, such that maybe only two people are able to do the connections, the rest are just watching. It is the same thing at Ridgeway campus. One cadaver room used to have maybe six bodies. Today there are fifteen to eighteen bodies in one room. We used to share one box of bones among three people, but today they are eight people to one box. There is no way students can master what they are meant to do and yet, UNZA is supposed to be our biggest university. What about the private universities that are claiming to be producing doctors or engineers? Where are they able to get the things that they use to train students?

 

Madam Chairperson, we need to pay a lot of attention to this ministry. We must find it more money than it has been given. We cannot have NRG equipment still being used at UNZA. If you go and look at the lathe that students work with, they fall to pieces. The lathe is a very important equipment for anything cylindrical or hollow that you want to make. Students have no sharper and many other things. So for me, this money that this ministry has been given is not enough. If the laboratories at institutions of higher learning are going to continue like they are for another five years, then there is nothing we are doing.

 

Madam Chairperson, Ridgeway campus has even been overtaken by other professions that were never meant to be there initially. The profession that was meant to be there has now been displaced. These are things that we should be able to correct now. I repeat that this money the ministry has been given is not enough. I would be very happy if it was given more money to improve the engineering laboratories, cadaver rooms and other areas where students train to become what they are supposed to be. I ask the hon. Minister to please see if it is possible for her ministry to be allocated money just to this area alone. If the ministry can even address the school of engineering at UNZA, first of all, and then go on to the school of chemistry, physics and all those other areas, then we will be getting somewhere with higher education.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, thank you once again for this opportunity to just say a few words as a way of contributing to the policy debate that was so well presented by the professor. Somebody observed that it was a forty minute presentation. I just want to highlight a few things. Firstly, my general observation is that there are a lot of statements of intent in the presentation that was made by the hon. Minister. This got me a little worried because some of the things that the ministry was pronouncing as intending to do are things that one would have expected to have been done like yesterday.

 

For instance, the issue of the student loans was touched on. I noted that a K10 million has been allocated for the establishment of a platform for recoveries of these loans. This is one key aspect that we have been talking about for some time now. I note that somewhere along the way a board was appointed. I was hoping, as I indicated in one of my previous debates, that by January, 2018, this would start operating. However, it appears that we are still going to be laying the ground work concerning this student loan facility.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister may wish to know that several delegations had gone outside the country to study how this facility was working elsewhere. Maybe we will do well to quickly learn from other countries that are already working with this system, so that we do not waste any more time trying to do this. We can lose the whole of next year trying to do this if we are not careful. In the meantime, we have this huge challenge of how to finance our students in the various learning institutions.

 

Madam Chairperson, one aspect I liked from the other professor’s debate was the issue of seeking to bring innovations in the education sector continuously. This will help us move away from the current structure of the education budget. It has been the same way for many years and perhaps it is no wonder things are not changing so much. We still have the challenges of the same old problems we have been talking about in the sector such as the lack of bed spaces and research materials in our universities.

 

Madam Chairperson, we were told in the hon. Minister’s statement that in terms of research projects, the ministry had actually exceeded its target. One would wish to learn what came out of those different researches. I would want to see a lot more dissemination for a where these research findings are shared and seen to inform policy and reforms in the education sector. As it is now, it is difficult to appreciate what is coming out from these researches and the different reviews of the curricula. One other professor argues to say that our own graduates cannot even make a nshima-making machine when this is what we should be seeing from our institutions.

 

Madam Chairperson, another point I just want to share with the professor is on the Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) in the education sector. I see that there are attempts to engage the private sector in higher education through PPPs, although the targets there again are below par. However, maybe apart from just considering this aspect of PPPs in higher education, we could even go down to the very bottom. When we make some savings of certain resources at the lower levels of education, then we would be able to apply this in the area where we seem to have many more challenges.

 

For instance, I have in mind the private sector players in secondary and primary education. Why can we not consider partnerships at that level with Government? The Government may not need to spend a lot of money on putting up infrastructure at the lower levels of education because the private sector has already created enough classroom space. Perhaps the Government can even consider deploying some teachers to go and teach in the private schools so that we do not have an influx of teachers in private institutions trying to join the public service and as a result, we end up with frustrated and disgruntled teachers. I see that as one meaningful partnership that the Government can seriously consider and research into. We need to see whether that option is viable and whether it would give the Government some leverage to do other things.

 

After all, we know that academic performance in our private institutions is far much better than in some of our public institutions. If we are really taking the private sector as a true partner in development, those are some of the ways we can consider to collaborate. We should not always think of Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) between the Government and other foreign individual investors at the expense of our own local investors. This is one area that I wanted to highlight.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to encourage the hon. Minister of Higher Education. I know that this is a very difficult sector. She needs a lot of support. I support her budget, but I want her to make sure that she moves quickly in ensuring that institutions like the Higher Education Authority do their work quickly because they are already established.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister expressed concern about the programmes the sixty-one universities are offering. I am wondering as to who this concern was put across to because she is the implementer. She was supposed to ensure that these sixty-one universities were not registered. Who registered them? The problem should have been nabbed at the registration stage.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Zambia Qualifications Authority can help us clean up the system, the way teachers with fake qualifications were flashed out recently. This exercise should be extended to other ministries so that people who have fake qualifications can be fished out. We need people who are proper graduates, critical thinkers and problem solvers, in our economy. We do not need Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) holders who will proudly say that they are bootlickers. I do not imagine that a person who has really gone to school and sweated to attain their PhD can take pride in calling themselves a bootlicker. I think true PhD holders do not come out like that.

 

Madam Chairperson, those were my few comments, which I wanted to voice out in supporting your budget, hon. Minister. I also wanted to encourage you as you deal with this Ministry.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, Hear!

 

________

 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE CHAIRPERSON

 

ARRANGEMENTS FOR DINNER

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, the dinner break will be from 2000 hours. So, we will suspend business at 1955 hours as usual.

 

The dinner break will be from 2000 hours to 2100 hours.

 

The House will resume sitting at exactly 2110 hours.

 

Hon. Members will have their dinner in the restaurant here at Parliament Buildings, while members of staff and ministry officials will have their dinner at the Members’ Motel.

 

Transport to and from the Members’ Motel for staff and ministry officials will be available at the foyer by the main entrance to Parliament Buildings.

The dinner for hon. Members, staff and ministry officials will be provided curtsey of the Hon. Mr Speaker. In this regard, I urge all hon. Members to be punctual to get back to the Chamber. I request the party whips to ensure that a quorum is formed at exactly 2110 hours.

 

I thank you.

 

________

 

Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Chairperson, firstly, I wish to thank the hon. Minister of Higher Education for the excellent policy statement that she has given. Since I started hearing about Higher Education, this is the first time I am hearing of a very clear vision and focus areas. I give credit to the hon. Minister of Higher Education and His Excellency, President Lungu, for giving a very clear direction in higher education.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, if you look at what the hon. Minister said, you will see that she has covered the three key pillars of education. Any education system should have the following pillars:

 

1. quantitative expansion of education;

 

1. equity of education; and

 

1. quality of education.

 

Madam Chairperson, these three pillars are comprehensively covered in the statement given by the hon. Minister of Higher Education. In addition, the hon. Minister has given us very clear focus areas which can drive the economy of this country. This ministry is the driver of the economy. When we talk about the Seventh National Development Plan (7^th NDP), the Vision 2030 and other visions that we have, we realise that education is the driving ministry. It is not enough, ...

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order on the left!

 

Dr Chanda: ... to be talking about quantity. For instance, when we say that we have 14 million Zambians, then we are quantifying. Let us talk about quality and find out how much quality we have added to that human resource. We know that the most important resource of any country is not the natural resources like copper, Mukula Tree or Victoria Falls, but the human resource. Therefore, what value are we adding to that human resource? The hon. Minister’s policy statement is on point in terms of value addition to the human resource.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has focused on very key areas in Higher Education.

 

Dr Wanchinga crossed the Floor.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

The hon. Minister of General Education is crossing the Floor.

 

Dr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of General Education is a grandparent while the hon. Minister of Higher Education is my former lecturer. It is not easy to debate your former lecturer’s speech. However, the key areas that the hon. Minister touched on are research and development, science, technology, innovation, entrepreneurship and skills development. That is the way to go because we cannot do everything. We have to focus on certain key areas. The learned hon. professor on the other side talked about digital technology. I think that is taken care of under technology since that is a broad area. Therefore, digital technology is a sub-sector of technology. I am very happy with what the hon. Minister has presented.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say that the importance of education cannot be over-emphasised. The late President, Nelson Mandela said “education is the most potent weapon that you can use to change the world.”

 

Madam Chairperson, education is what makes the son of a marketeer growing up in Chimwemwe to become President of the Republic of Zambia. It is also what makes a young, determined and hardworking lady become the first female professor of Zambia, Minister of Higher Education and one who has served so many portfolios. Education is a great equaliser because it makes a person like me, a son of a policeman to become a medical doctor and a Member of Parliament. That is what education does. I am, therefore, very happy with the focus that the PF Government is putting on education.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Dr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, those who are questioning can see me at dinner time. I have talked about quantity and now I want to talk about quality in education. With regard to quality, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to bench mark with some countries that have since progressed economically. I will not belabour this point, but simply cite countries like Singapore, China and South Korea among others, who invested so much in tertiary education and that resulted in a very skilled labour force which drove those countries’ economies forward.

 

Madam Chairperson, looking at the statistics, I am happy that the hon. Ministers of General Education and Higher Education are seated next to each other because all the three levels of education have to be well aligned. These levels are primary, secondary and tertiary education. Once there is misalignment, then we will have a problem. I can give an example of the net enrolment rate of primary education in Zambia, which is at 94 per cent. This is because of the Universal Free Education Policy. When it comes to secondary education, it is at 28 per cent and by the time we get to tertiary education, it is at 5 per cent. That is what the Ministry of Higher Education is handling. By the time the Ministry of Higher Education finishes handling the 5 per cent, we only have 2 per cent of this population with a Bachelor’s Degree and above. I can give you an example of a country that we need to bench mark ourselves with and that is South Korea.

 

Primary education enrolment in South Korea and Zambia are almost at the same level at 99 per cent. Their secondary education is at 97 per cent, while their tertiary education is also most at 70 per cent. They are graduating a huge pool of tertiary educated people. If indeed tertiary education is the key to economic growth, then 2 per cent or 5 per cent will not do. We should find a way to close the gaps and leakages so that we no longer start with of 94 per cent at primary which falls off to 28 per cent at secondary. In medicine we call those leakages haemorrhaging. We need to stop the bleeding by maintaining that critical pool of 94 per cent. At least, at a minimum, it can fall to about 80 per cent. By the time students reach tertiary education we should be talking about 60 or 70 per cent. Once we have that critical pool of highly skilled Zambians in engineering, mathematics, technology and all these other fields that we are talking about, then we can drive the economy. If out of 15 million you are only going to have 100 very highly skilled people then we are going to have a problem and that is why I do not share the view that we should first focus on quality instead of quantity. We should balance the two. Let us have an expansion in terms of quantity, but also emphasise on quality.

 

Madam Chairperson, that brings me to a very important point of the ranking of our educational institutions. I am a graduate of the University of Zambia (UNZA), both Great East Road and Ridgeway Campuses, and I am happy that my former lecturer is Minister of Higher Education today. However, I am very concerned at the African continental and global ranking of our learning institutions today and we need to see a very clear plan of how we are going to improve our grades. It is the same as classroom situation. If my grades rank me at number 40 in a class what will my plan be to reaching number one? I think that is what we need to be talking about.

 

Madam Chairperson, UNZA, the highest learning institution in the country, ranked first in Zambia, is fifty-fifth in Africa and number 2,630 globally.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Dr Chanda: Yes, just listen. CBU, which is ranked second in Zambia, is ranked number 239 in Africa and number 8,174 worldwide.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

Dr Chanda: Chreso University, which Hon. Livune likes so much and which is the lowest ranked university in Zambia is ranked number 1,485 in Africa and number 26,258 in the world.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Chanda: The challenge is the issue of quality.

 

Madam Chairperson, I do not know how these rankings come about. After being educated at UNZA I have had the privilege to work with the highest universities in the world. I have worked with Harvard University, Columbia University and the University of North Carolina. The quality that we produce is world class, but we need to have a clear strategic plan of how we are going to improve both quantity and quality.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Higher Education, His Excellency the President and the PF Government ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Dr Chanda: ... for clearly outlining a strategy of financing for higher education. The PF Government is the first Government in this country to look at the funding of higher education broadly. If you look at the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government and the Movement for Multi-Party Government (MMD) Government, which Prof. Lungwangwa served in, you will see that they gave the usual bursaries, but the PF is talking about student loans. Just a few days ago we had an alumni dinner with His Excellency, the President, as guest of honour where we were looking at innovative ways of funding our higher learning institutions.

 

Madam Chairperson, look at research. Research and consultancy are supposed to be funding UNZA as opposed to whining and complaining about how the Government is not providing money. A few months ago I visited the India Institute of Technology (IIT) in Delhi, which is highest learning institution in India. That institution is largely funded by research, consultancy and innovations. Students are starting up companies right at IIT Delhi. The same is happening at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States of America (USA). I urge the hon. Minister of Higher Education to consider establishing a higher learning institution in Zambia of information and technology which would be the equivalent of IIT in India and the Massachusetts Institute in the USA. That way we will realise our goals.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila (Magoye): Thank you Madam Chairperson, the K1.9 billion allocated to the Ministry of Higher Education is inadequate. I agree with ...

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1955 hours until 2110 hours.

 

 [THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson, I was saying K1.9 billion was inadequate to properly fund the Ministry of Higher Education.

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: Listening to the ambitious programmes by the hon. Minister of Higher Education, one wonders how that is going to be tenable. The hon. Minister will be spreading money thinly over a wide area and that will make education provision cheap. In my argument, I will say, cheap is expensive because you will not realise the desired goals. I will support the Motion but I have to concentrate on the following aspects; infrastructure, academic freedoms, loans and bursary schemes.

 

Madam Chairperson, under infrastructure development, it was interesting to learn from the hon. Minister that they have apportioned limited resources to construct hostels at the University of Zambia and some institutions. My worry is about infrastructure that concerns new universities like that one called King Lewanika University in Western Province which is almost at slab level or I do know if anything is happening at all.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Machila: My other worry is talking about universities in certain areas only. However, the people of Magoye were going to be happier if they heard of a possible construction of a university somewhere in the region.

 

Brig. Gen. Sitwala: Yes!

 

Mr Machila: Now, when you look at inadequate university places and colleges, this leaves room for mushrooming of private universities. Nature hates vacuum. When you fail to accommodate qualifying and able students into universities in the country, the next alternative is that people will be creative and invest in private university education. This has seen us with fifty-one private universities. Now, when you look at universities like the Copperbelt University (CBU) and University of Zambia (UNZA), including Kwame Nkhrumah and Mulungushi universities, accommodation for students is inadequate leading to overcrowding in hostels. This has also led to the mushrooming of boarding houses near the universities. In the so called boarding houses there is high immorality and risk for our children. In these boarding houses there is no order. You will find that in this room there is a female student, while right next there is a male student. During the night some are involved in playing disco music, some are busy singing while others are praying in tongues.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Machila: The academic environment is compromised. This has made the provision of university education to be child’s play. We are not serious.

 

Brig. Gen. Sitwala: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: By this time we should have been considering adequate accommodation for those students that have been accepted at the university.

 

Madam Chairperson, conditions of service for members of staff at universities are nothing much to boast about.

 

Brig. Gen. Sitwala: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: Those that retire wait in perpetuity for their benefits. Some have even departed and they have gone to maybe heaven or some of those undesired places...

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: ...waiting for their benefits. I think hon. Minister; you should be considerate and look at the conditions of service for our members of staff particularly the lecturers.

 

Mr Mulunda: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson let me talk about academic freedom. Universities and colleges should provide space to generate and communicate ideas to promote critical thinking in the country. Academicians and students can play a very important role in generating knowledge on important topical issues in the country.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: This can be done through organised debates, research and the findings from the research can be used to generate further development in our country. Research is very important, of course, the hon. Minister mentioned something that they are rethinking of recapitalising on research. However, my worry is, while the idea may be superb, but the release of funds is something that is very doubtful. Hon. Minister of Finance ensure that you release adequate funds for research at institutions of higher learning that is going to help us to advance as a nation. You can have a lot of research in agriculture, health, and mining and then make a deliberate policy to follow-up on the findings of the research. Research alone without corresponding follow-up will just end up being an academic exercise which is synonymous to the way of governance by the PF Government.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: I have a lot of examples; we have, like in Health the Sondashi Formula...

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Members: Ah!

 

Mr Machila: …which did not receive adequate support in the country where by this discovery or scientific innovation by our citizen received attention outside this country. In the end you find that the production of the Sondashi Formula …

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: …as remedy for HIV/AIDS will be under a patent of a foreign country. Yet the idea was hatched and grown in this country.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Research alone is not adequate. The most important thing is to make follow-ups on research. I, therefore, urge the ministry to provide more resources for such activities.

 

Madam Chairperson, why is it that even after fifty-three years of independence, Zambia does not have industries or inventions that can produce even a needle? This is very shameful. Zambia has failed to do this due to lack of investment in research. If we invest more in research and follow-up then, Zambia will achieve its goals. The reason Zambia is still lagging behind is because we have not invested much in independent research for students and academicians.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson, our research institutions in this country are poorly funded. Those of you who have not traveled much within this country can make a deliberate drive to go and see a research station at Mount Makulu in Chilanga. The state of that institution leaves much to be desired. The original idea of creating that institution by the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government was excellent, but the Governments that came after, ignored it. I am therefore, impressed to hear that this Government wants to recapitalise on research. My only worry is whether the money shall truly be released for that recapitalisation.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have noticed that in the higher learning institutions, the freedom of students is being practiced. The t issues that are happening in the institutions of higher learning are politicised. For example, when students bring up ideas through their unions, the Executive move in and interfere with the freedoms of the student unions. That is negative to the development of democracy in the country.  The Government must introduce a policy which will look into the welfare of our students in these higher learning institutions. Our students must be able to enjoy their freedom. 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson, the Government must not interfere in the students’ freedom. 

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson, the Government must not start giving directives to the universities and colleges as if they are dealing with primary schools. 

 

Mr Ngulube: Hammer!

 

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson, in higher learning institutions, we have young adults who are supposed to be practicing the role of progressive decision-making and participation in our young democracy.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hammer!

 

Loan and Bursary Scheme

 

Mr Machila: Madam Chairperson, a loan is a sustainable mechanism of funding tertiary education. A bursary is awarded to someone to enable them study at a university. This is usually given to the selected students who are not able to pay for their school fees due to certain conditions that befall them.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has mentioned that they have already established a board that is going to look at the loan scheme for our students. I hope this board will be a meaningful one, which is not going to discriminate our students in the allocation of these loans. We are looking at the board which is not going to be looking at the surnames of the students when allocating the loans.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Machila:  Madam Chairperson, the bursary scheme has failed to work in this country for so many years. This has caused the riots and demonstrations that we see in  higher learning institutions because the bursary is neither adequate nor released on time. The bursary scheme is limited to public universities …

 

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Madam Chairperson, first and foremost, I would like to thank the minister for a well-articulated policy statement. The intervention which has been taken by the Government, of financing the 2018 Budget by 54 per cent is equivalent to the requirement of the African Union (AU) and the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Parliamentary Forum and it is very important.

 

Madam Chairperson, as we know, education is an equaliser. I am saying so because the ministry has made it possible for those who were left behind in terms of education to be able to go into university. With the establishment of the Zambia Qualification Authority (ZAQA), so many people have improved on their education. These people have been given an opportunity to be admitted to higher learning institutions such as the University of Zambia (UNZA), the Copperbelt University (CBU) and any other accredited universities.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to state that the K200 million which has been allocated for debt dismantling is an improvement on the part of the Government. We must appreciate what the Government has done. We must also look at the envelope where this money is coming from. In this country, we have a problem with internal financing.  The establishment of a skills development levy by the Government is a welcome decision. This will improve the quality of education in the universities, colleges and also, emoluments for the lecturers.

 

Madam Chairperson, increased access to skills infrastructure is another positive item in this year’s Budget. Lack of good policies has resulted in the delays in the effectiveness of ZAQA.  Once the law is revisited, the tinspectorate will be given powers to scrutinise the universities that are not yet up to standard.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is important for the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to support the Ministry of Higher Education. 

 

The creation of the nuclear centre will help us increase our understanding of nuclear energy, efficiency in the medicine and agriculture sectors, and will ensure that a dry resistant variety is introduced.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Higher Education is an equaliser for everybody. 80 per cent of the entire budget has been put on demographic dividend. The Ministry of Higher Education is cross-cutting across all the sectors of the Government. I think the interventions that have been put in place by the Government including the levy are welcome. What I am trying to say is that when people drop out in Grade 7 or Form 3, they realise that without education, there is nothing that can happen. Some lawyers started from night school, but today, they have joined the mainstream University of Zambia (UNZA) or Copperbelt University (CBU) …

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Daka: … because there is an allowance in the education sector which allows one to rethink after wasting time whilst he or she was very young. However, the adult education that we have picked up later on has been very fruitful. Some go to Grade 7 through to Form 5 and go straight to the university, but others suffer a little and realise that it is cold out there and that is when they go back to school. I do not want to give an example of people who are still studying in here because that is the noble thing that we have to do. We have to relook our lives and appreciate that without education, we do not have power. Knowledge and education is power.

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Daka: Madam Chairperson, I urge the Government to equalise the universities. We can not only talk about Mulakupikwa and Paul Mushindo Universities. We must talk about Omelo Mumba, Grey Zulu and Reuben Kamanga Universities. Even if people are saying that in the Western Province there is King Lewanika University, at least there is commitment.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mr Daka: We want this commitment to be in all the provinces in Zambia and the Government is doing everything possible. We must appreciate the willingness it has shown to ensure that universities are built in all the provinces in Zambia. We must not practice nepotism in reverse. Some provinces are not a base from the bottom. They should be based from the top. I have heard about the construction of so many universities in the Northern and Muchinga Provinces. I want some of them to be built in other provinces too and in particular …

 

Mr Mwale: Petauke.

 

Mr Daka: … Petauke, Msanzala, Chama South …

 

Mr Mutale: Chitambo.

 

Mr Daka: … and Chitambo.

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Daka: Madam Chairperson, even the pronouncement is good enough. It gives hope to the people to believe that at one time, the Government will fulfil its promises. It is difficult to collect money. I feel pity for the Ministry of Finance because at one point we say we cannot collect tax from a certain area and at the same time we want a university in Petauke. We must be universal and agree to accept taxes which have been introduced to fund whatever we want.We cannot fund what we want if we do not accept to be taxed.

 

Ms Mulenga: Tell them!

Mr Daka: We must be positive. We must not behave like school children in a Grade 1 classroom. We are an example, a litmus paper, the apex and the crèmedela crème, meaning the cream of the cream.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Oho!

 

Mr Daka: Even when you who is saying oho your son is watching you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Daka: Madam Chairperson, when we come here, we are an example of everybody …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Daka: … and we must show good parenthood. We can only do that when we are educated. However, being educated does not only entail going to the university. We can educate ourselves even in our houses and through night school.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mr Daka: Madam Chairperson, the twin brother of somebody whom I know very well is unfortunately not around.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Daka: He should ask his brother. They will know me.

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Daka: Madam Chairperson, …

 

The Chairperson: I do not understand what you are trying to say.

 

Mr Daka: What I am trying to say is that somebody from somewhere is trying to intimidate me with his voice so I have told him to go and ask his twin brother how I behave outside these precincts.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema Peter Daka!

 

The Chairperson: Order! Please, focus on the debate.

 

Mr Daka: Madam Chairperson, what I am trying to say is that research and development is the answer to so many woes that we have in this country. Through Information, Communication and Technology (ICT) and new technology, an engine today has been reduced from 852 parts to fifty parts. However, one wonders whether those people who put up such an engine will be declared redundant or will be sent somewhere. That is a science and technology.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am glad to stand in front of my former director who is the hon. Minister of General Education and also in charge of the National Science and Technology Council. However, the answer to the problem that Zambia is facing lies in understanding that science, innovation and technology can transform a nation and it needs to go through that mile. We cannot be left behind after so many years. The University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Zambia Air Services Training Institute (ZASTI) Zambia have produced engineers and test pilots who are in Seattle today. The ZASTI is supposed to be the headquarters of pilots in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and it was under this ministry. However, I do not know where it is, but we can excel through science, mathematics and technology. We can only solve tomorrow’s problems through research. I am glad that the Government has allocated money to the NISIR to research on so many things and resolve tomorrow’s problems. I feel very honoured to speak today and to support the budget for the ministry that I was at one time in charge of.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Madam Chairperson, it is my first time to debate in the night since I became the Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: To begin with, we could do a lot with this ministry.

 

The Chairperson: There is a lot of wisdom when you debate in the night.

 

Laughter

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kamboni: Thank you, Madam Chairperson and I am sure that I will release a lot of wisdom.

 

Mr Jere: Aah!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kamboni: We can do a lot for the Ministry of Higher Education and jokes aside. This is a ministry that can solve a lot of Zambia’s problems. The problem that we have now is that we are looking at this ministry as consumption and not as an investment.

 

On comparative basis, the money that has been given to the Ministry of Higher Education and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services it is almost the same. The Ministry of Higher Education has been allocated K1.9 billion and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services is about K1.01. There is supposed to be a big difference.

 

In countries where they take the Ministry of Higher Education very seriously, they have turned around their economy to be knowledge based. We have some examples of the countries in Africa like Rwanda. Right now they have moved ahead because they are making use of this ministry. They have invested a lot in this ministry. If you go to one of their universities on site, you will see the seriousness. However, here in our country, there is no seriousness in this ministry.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Kamboni: The levels of tertiary education have gone down. For instance, we were just being told about the ranking of universities. The University of Zambia (UNZA) ranks around 2,000 in the world. That is not good for a university that was ranked among the top three in Africa, to go down and down. Therefore, we need to do something about it.

 

If we invested adequately in the Ministry of Higher Education that can help us create employment in the country. This is a ministry that can improve the quality of life for all the Zambians. This is a ministry that can solve Zambia’s problems if we invested in it.

 

There are lot of things that the hon. Minister said here. It was a very long speech which reminded me of those days, but I did not hear anything new or hopeful.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: This is because all the things she has said, without money or with this little money that we have allocated to the ministry, it is a non starter.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: I, therefore, would like to comment that what we have given to this ministry is too little. A country like Zambia which has been independent for over fifty years should have done more. A country like Zambia which is the third hungriest country with a lot of poor people …

Hon. Government Members: Mmm where?

 

Mr Kamboni: … and a country that has a lot of problems should have put more in this ministry so that we solve these problems.

 

Mr Kambita: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni:  This is a very important point I am making.

 

The hon. Minister also mentioned that they are investing a lot in human capital. How? If we go to the University of Zambia now, we will find that the loan it has is colossal. Every time it is accumulating loans. The amount we are supposed to allocate to the University of Zambia monthly is about K50 million or K48 million, but we give to UNZA about K13 million which sometimes does not come on time. How does the UNZA run itself with such little money? Then those who retired are about 157, some retired fifteen years ago, but they are still on the payroll because the University of Zambia has failed to pay them their pension.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Kamboni: Those who are running the University of Zambia have failed and have run out of ideas. We need new people to run that university properly so that it can regenerate money and improve.

 

If one looks at how much money they have put on research it is too little. One cannot talk about nuclear science with this kind of allocation. I have been to most scientific places in the country and the situation is bad. Even a bus stop looks better. If one went to the best scientific institution we have here in Zambia, all they will see are beakers. If one looked at the machines that Dr Kaunda left, it needs ten people to start it.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kamboni: It is like those old hammer mills where you have spin the wheel round and round, very old fashioned. There is nothing new at all.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kamboni: There are only two doctors at the best scientific institutions. One is involved in administration so there is only one doctor. What kind of science can we do with just one doctor? And yet, South Africa has got about 500 doctors to do the research.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Kamboni: This implies that we are not serious with the education system in this country.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Kamboni: On Independence Day, when the President was giving awards, I did not see any sector affiliated to education. There was nothing. All the colleges that were offering scientific subjects most of them have been turned into business colleges because we cannot equip the laboratories. One cannot learn science from telling a story or telling lies because this is a practical subject. We can only have such good things if we are planting, but we are not planting in this field.

 

Mr Jere: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: At the end of the day, we expect results.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to advise the Patriotic Front (PF) Government that when they are talking about diversification, they should not only concentrate on agriculture. This is because they have already failed in agriculture. The prices of commodities have gone wrong. Farmers have not received their farming inputs up to now. Therefore, this is now a closed chapter. There are no longer farmers available in this country because we have declared them redundant due to our poor policies.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: And yet, this is an area where we should have invested much more.

 

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of accommodation, I wish to say that there is accommodation crisis at the University of Zambia because there is no planning under the Ministry of Higher Education. They are building other universities when the capacity of the University of Zambia is of about 3 to 4 thousand people and accommodation is a crisis.

 

As I am talking right now, Copperbelt University students are on strike because we cannot afford to pay them the allowances. The University of Zambia did not open because there was no money. We must be frank.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Even if somebody is a professor he or she cannot perform miracles if we do not invest in this sector.

 

Mr Jere: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: We need to invest more in higher education. These are the days we remember people like Dr Kaunda. He recognised the importance of education. However, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government does not. Even when the President of the country was giving out prizes, there was no educational sector to showcase of what is happening in education. It was just other cadres who were receiving the prizes. There was no promotion of education at all.

 

Someone in this augustHouse stood up and debated in here that primary and secondary education is not necessary. What kind of thinking is that? We begin from the foundation. That is why we need to invest in all the sectors of education if we are to get results. However, what we are getting now is from worse to worst. In terms of education, we are the worst, in terms of poverty we are the best. In terms of corruption we are the best.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kamboni: In terms of rigging we are the best.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: When are we going to have a nice story about our country?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Bauze mbuya!

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Kamboni: When are we going to see an academician being honoured? This is because there is no money that is being invested into research. How then can we talk about science when we have not put any money in research? If you go to Copperbelt University even taps for opening water in labs are damaged or are not there.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kamboni: The type of computers that they have they are obsolete. We were made to visit the Copperbelt University when we heard that they had opened a school of medicine there. When we went there, we observed that all the laboratories were empty, but they have a school of medicine. What are they studying? How does one study medicine when there are no laboratories? How are they studying?

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: We were told to go and see the state of the art of the laboratory, but when we went there we saw nothing. Literally nothing not even taps or water, but they have a school of medicine.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the sixty-one mushrooming universities. Who is going to take control of these mushrooming universities if the Minister of Higher Education does not? Who is going to control this? Even the people who are supposed to control the mushrooming of these universities are complaining. Who is in charge?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kamboni: I expected the Minister of Higher Education to be the one taking responsibility by laying down standards of university.

 

However, the problem is that we have developed a culture of using shortcuts in this country. Everything we want to do, we use shortcuts. Amending the Constitution, we want to bring it through the back door. Just about everything. We are quarreling about things that are straightforward. That is why we are seeing that the laid down rules are very embarrassing. For instance, some of the universities that are coming up do not even qualify to be called universities.

 

I am going to give an example because of these doctors that are not properly qualified. I have had a situation in my constituency whereby somebody was given rabies medicine and that person died. This is because we have a lot of people who are not qualified.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngulube: Swallow saliva now!

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, we are talking of embracing technology. Technology can do a lot for this nation. Even in this Chamber we are using technology. These machines we are using are using technology because they are all stemming up from technology. The cars, good houses and everything else are built up because of technology. Therefore, it is important we take technology seriously.

 

Let me now talk about the nuclear science. On the issue of the Sondashi Formula, I am going to repeat talking about this formula again. This is a formula that would help the country save a lot of money. How much money is this country using on Anti-Retro-Viral (ARVs) drugs? It was proved that the Sondashi Formula works. The doctor who did the tests put in a lot. In South Africa they were shocked when I talked to the doctor who is in charge of that. We have failed to just construct a building to manufacture our own ARVs. In fact that Sondashi Formula is better than some of the cheap ARVs people are using whereby they have to have rushes and all sorts of things. It is a very good and natural, but nobody is interested.

 

Mr Mushanga: How do you know?

 

Mr Kamboni: We went there and inspected the place, everything is in boxes but only money is lacking to build. However, I did not see in this budget where we are taking this seriously. This is the way we treat our own scientists. We do not promote science, but we are promoting cadres. When it comes to cadres, we pump in money and yet we leave these important areas. As PF Government, please leave one area as a legacy where we shall try to remember you and not through thuggery and corruption.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, a lot is required for education to take place. For instance, quality human resource is a must. The Government cannot say that they are promoting capital investment in human because considering what is prevailing at the moment. It cannot be true. How can this be true when we are not actually putting any money or concentrating in this area? Everything that we touch does not seem to be working. For instance, the bursary scheme is in a crisis. The loan scheme, which has been introduced, is not catering for all the students. Students who go to the University of Zambia (UNZA) or other colleges are not picked on quality, but on other things, which do not improve quality education.

 

 Madam Chairperson, science is in categories. The science for making seeds, this and that is not proper science. We need what is called fundamental science in this country and this is completely lacking. The science, which I am talking about, can go on for a period of ten years. It is through this type of science that cell phones were discovered. They would start up a project that would go beyond ten years. Fundamental science is where things are discovered. How come we cannot even make a battery in this country? We produce copper, but we cannot even make a transformer. We have engineers, who cannot construct roads. We have engineers, who cannot make anything. When are we going to start looking at the syllabus and change? We need a revolution. We need the education, which will make sense, whereby we will be able to produce something tangible. Instead, we have left our citizens and to be only users of what others discover. When we operate a laptop, we think we are scientists.

 

 Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Kamboni: When we own a phone, we think you are educated. What kind of education is that? One could be learned, but not educated. We need people who can produce these things so that in the end, we can create employment and other things. For instance, Kenya is better than us in terms of inventions.

 

Madam, I have always said that the ZOONA we use was discovered by street kids. It is the children from the street who discovered ZOONA, Airtel money and they also discovered MTN money that we are all using and very happy. Once we do that, we feel satisfied. What rewards do we need to enable us encourage people to study science.  There are no incentives at all.  Botswana is now better than us. There is what is called special skills incentives, where those who have studied science, get more money. Like somebody said, one would opt to be an accountant because there is nothing on offer for scientists. They do not see any need to stay in the profession.

 

In my entire district, there is no scientist that we know. Prof. Kanyomeka from NRDC went to Namibia and became the best scientist for two consecutive years. When he died, nobody knew about him in Zambia. Instead, they were learning from foreigners about their own scientist. We do not care about these people, especially the scientists.

 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Kamboni: Madam, we need to change our attitude and respect education. The language in the Ministry of Higher Education is also bad.  What is the Government doing to Natural Resources and Development College (NRDC)? They are auctioning NRDC. Why are they selling the NRDC? That college was built by Dr Kaunda. If this Government wants to build something, they should go and build a new thing elsewhere. How could they sell something which they did not build? They want to quickly sell the college without shame and yet, the college produces so many graduates. They are now saying that they are doing that in the name of transferring and yet, what they are looking for is the prime land, where NRDC is situated. Please, stop that. If you want to go ahead with those plans,  go and build your own university, where we shall say this school was built by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. Do not sell NRDC.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Kamboni: That must be stopped.

 

Madam, let me now come to the issue of the syllabus. It was very nice to listen to two professors. We need a revolution in terms of the syllabus because education is there only for a few people to know how to read and write, operate a laptop or a machine, which was created by somebody and find pleasure in doing that. No! We want our Zambians to come up with something and produce as system, which we will be proud of as a country. I want to see a Zambian being rewarded on independence day for being the best scientist in the region and not for being best in corruption or rigging. What kind of a country are we? When are we going to do that which is good for this country? We need to do more. This budget is not enough for this ministry. For instance, it was going to make sense if we had used the US$1.2 billion, which was used on the Lusaka/Kabwe/Ndola Dual Carriage Way in this ministry. The 500 km in Kenya cots about US$600 and yet, in Zambia, a 300 km road is at US$1.2 billion. That is how money is wasted in this country. Good luck in your leadership.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

 

 Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this chance to contribute to this debate. I would also like to thank the hon. Minister the policy statement. It was quite gratifying to learn that the hon. Minister has identified most of the problems that are inherent in our education system particularly at higher level.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister also mentioned the loan scheme, which we are introducing next year. It is anticipated that these loans will be given to deserving students in all public universities through the board to be instituted so that the 4,000 beneficiaries could have equal access to education.

 

 Madam, as the previous speakers have mentioned, education is an equalizer. Most of us could not have been here had it not been for education. We are trying to see how the hon. Minister is going to transform this subsector. I am aware and I am convinced that she is equal to the task. We should reposition ourselves for the future in line with the needs of the industry without leaving anyone behind.

 

 Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has also lamented that the quality of education in this country has been highly compromised because of the proliferation of universities with questionable credentials.

 

Madam, the hon. Minister may recall that during our time, we used to have research fellows, distinguished graduates, who were able to teach their fellow students before acquiring a masters degree. Today, we do not have such people because they are not there.

 

Madam Chairperson, I know of certain universities in this country, which offering a four-year programme for only three years. What type of education and what type of students are they going to churn come out of that programme? The current masters graduates that are there today cannot even write a thesis. I do not know how they pass.

 

 Laughter

 

Mr Kabanda: Madam, indeed, universities are supposed to be vehicles or catalysts for research and development. In China, Huawei, the telephones providers are anchored in the university.  They are busy researching and improving on the quality of the telephones. Why can we not have companies like Zambia Breweries and other private companies sign a memorandum of understanding with our universities such as University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Copperbelt University (CBU)?

 

Madam, surely, even the production of bitumen is a problem in this country. Instead, we have to import bitumen for our roads when we have engineers, who are supposed to research in these things. The cost of maintaining a road is quite expensive because we cannot produce our own materials.

 

 Madam Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to also revisit the law regulating the establishment of private universities. We should also equally improve the quality and efficiency of our universities by ensuring that only qualified personnel are churned out of these universities.

 

Madam Chairperson, one does not need to be a fourth year university student to be able to design a house. The Chinese who are coming here to design buildings are mere Grade 12s. Why can we not have housing designers at the Kabwe Skills Training Institute? Even Grade 8s can design a house. Does one surely need to go to university to design a house? We should see to it that even in primary schools, children are able to make chairs or tables. That is that the type of citizenry we want to see in this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, we should also bring on board the private sector so that more money is injected into our universities. Above all, let us inculcate a spirit of creativity and innovativeness in the minds of the people running these institutions. Last time, I talked about the Malcolm Moffat College of Education (MMCE) and asked the hon. Minister to bring the professors from the University of Zambia (UNZA) to come and see what we are doing in Serenje at this colleague. The college is able to feed itself. It has a farm where maize is grown and there is a piggery, chicken run and so on and so forth.

 

However, the universities that are being given money under this Vote do not even have a hectare of maize. I think it is high time these institutions started supporting themselves. They cannot be looking to the central Government for money all the time. The national resource envelope is very small. Therefore, public institutions should think outside the box to support themselves. If people are looking for support from the Government all the time, can it employ 15 million people?

 

Mr Ngulube: No!

 

Mr Kabanda: We should all be doing something to compliment Government’s efforts to improve our quality of life. The hon. Minister talked about technological advancement. We need computers in our institutions of higher learning so that it can be easy for students to research on various issues. Overall, however, the budgetary provision to this ministry is very little. Even it was doubled, it would not make any difference at all. It is, therefore, our appeal that more resources should be allocated to education because it is a very important sector which is capable of driving this country forward.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you and I support this budget.

 

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Higher Education will wind up debate in five minutes.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, I was going to wind up in one minute, but I am compelled to say a few things because of the debate of Hon. Komboni.

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Kamboni is the name.

 

Prof. Luo: Sorry, Hon. Kamboni.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me thank Prof. Lungwangwa, Hon. Simbao, Hon. Daka, Hon. Chanda, Hon. Chonya, Hon. Machila and Hon. Kabanda for the contributions that they have given to this debate. I want to say that some of the suggestions and submissions that were made by these hon. Members of Parliament are things that we will take into account, but I just want to inform them that the policy debate cannot incorporate all the details. Some of the things they mentioned, like the issues of Information and Communication Technology (ICT) and digital technology, are things that we are already doing in the ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me just talk about some of the issues that were raised by Hon. Kamboni. When I was debating, I mentioned the fact that we are concerned with the mushrooming of universities in this country. This is why we have started an accreditation process. When you apply for a place in a university or school, you are given an acceptance letter, but that does not mean that you are going to start studying immediately. The applicants have to be scrutinised by being tried and sometimes given examinations. This is what determines whether indeed you are the student that has applied for that place. Therefore, accreditation is going to ensure that we have what is acceptable as universities. These institutions need to have full time lecturers and professors. We now have people who have just woken up and become professors. I am in fact coming here with a ministerial statement to talk about qualifications.

Madam Chairperson, I think the problem is the negativity that we have as a country. One cannot say that when you go to the university, there is nothing happening. People should please take time to visit some of these institutions and see the changes that are taking place. This would ensure that when they come to debate here, they do so from an informed and well researched position.

 

Therefore, while I will take into consideration all the submissions that have been made by other colleagues, I am inviting Hon. Kamboni to visit our public institutions of higher learning. He should also come to the ministry so that he sees what is happening because learning is the most important thing. In fact, the country where I trained has done so well in education because the people who were responsible for education before and now reminded everybody that uchit’sya, uchit’sya, uchit’sya. Therefore, I am inviting Hon. Kamboni to uchit’sya, uchit’sya, uchit’sya and that is Russian I am speaking.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister will translate uchit’sya, uchit’sya, uchit’sya for the record.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, since we are talking about education and people must learn, Hon. Kamboni will find out what uchit’sya, uchit’sya, uchit’sya means and if he wants, he can even come ask me.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: We need it reflected correctly in the record.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Chairperson, for that reason, I will say it just means study, study, study or learn, learn, learn. Therefore, I am inviting Hon. Kamboni to learn.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Thank you, hon. Minister.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: I would like to inform the House that this Head is starting with programmes, as the other one was. It is also an output based budget (OBB) and individual items are indicated by programmes, starting with Programme 5504. We have received an explanation that this sequence is as a result of the two ministries in the education sector having been one at one point and have now been separated.

 

Votes 65/5504,

 

65/5506, 65/5507, 65/5508, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 65 – (Ministry of Health – K6,824,169,820).

 

The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to present my policy statement in support of the budget for the Ministry of Health. It is both momentous and opportune.

 

Madam Chairperson, my statement has the following layout; a concise progress report on the key activities done in 2017 and a statement of intention for 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, in designing the Seventh National Development Plan (7^thNDP), the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, under the laudable leadership of His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Dr Chilufya: ... has pitched health as a key economic investment. I repeat, under the laudable leadership of His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, we have pitched health as a key economic investment. 

 

Review of the Health Sector Performance for 2017

 

Madam Chairperson, it is important to note that the health sector recorded significant improvements in key health sector indicators. We have reduced malaria case fatalities from 21.4 per 1,000 admissions in 2015 to 18.5 per 1,000 admissions in 2016. Our children have been fully immunised. The immunisation coverage was above 85 per cent, which is way beyond the World Health Organisation (WHO) threshold. The percentage of pregnant women delivered by skilled workers has risen above 64 per cent compared to less than 54 per cent in 2016. We have increased the number of people living with HIV/AIDS and on antiretroviral drugs (ARVs) from 750,000 in 2017 to 850,000 in 2017. I would like to emphasise that the surge in the numbers was seen after the pronouncement of the test and treat policy by President Edgar Chagwa Lungu.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: We are going to continue pushing towards HIV universal routine testing and treatment, and our prevention interventions will be escalated through a multi-sectoral approach.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is important to note again that in 2017, we have recorded a 60 per cent reduction of referrals from provinces and lower level facilities to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). It is because we have placed specialists in all the provincial hospitals, coupled with recruitment of over 9,000 health workers in 2017.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya: The average number of people recruited before 2017, was 800 per year. However, in 2017, 9,000 workers were recruited. This is a milestone.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: The segmentation of the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) has reduced inefficiencies in the delivery of health services. Today, UTH does not have floor beds. That is a milestone.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Significant progress has been made in the construction of strategic health infrastructure across the continuum of care. We have supported reproductive adolescent and child health services and indicators have shown an improvement.

 

Madam Chairperson, fruitful partnerships with the United States (US) Government, Japanese Government, Chinese Government, Department for International Development (DFID), British Government, United Nations (UN) family, Global Fund and other development partners have been yielding deliverables like never before. 

 

Madam Chairperson, our health system strengthening programme has been guided by key strategic documents which we can boast that we produced. These are as follows: National Health Strategic Plan 2017-2021, National Aids Strategic Framework 2017-2021, National Accounts, Anti-Microbial Resistance Action Plan, Human Resources for Health Strategic Plan and Health Care Financing Strategy.

 

As I conclude on the 2017 performance, I would like to state that our budget performance in relation to the releases from the Ministry of Finance stands at 90 per cent. This has helped us improve the quality of health services.

 

Madam Chairperson, to improve human resource for health, we have set up the Zambia College of Medicine and Surgery to improve the training of specialists. This will be in partnership with the University of Zambia (UNZA). Furthermore, the Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital has been set up. That immediately evokes a new training institute. It is a health services university with a capacity of 3,000 students.

 

2018 Budget Provision

 

Madam Chairperson, we have been allocated a total of K6,824,169,820 in the 2018 Budget and this represents 9.9 per cent of the National Budget, an increase from 7.9 per cent.

 

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear, tell Belemu!

 

Dr Chilufya: Out of this amount, K3.68 billion will be aapplied on personnel emoluments, K1.2 billion has been allocated to drugs, representing a 56 per cent increase, K52 million has been allocated to medical equipment, K267 million has been allocated to infrastructure development, K691 million for the implementation of various primary health care programmes in districts, K146 million for second and third level hospitals and K45 million for training and capacity building, amongst other programmes.

 

Madam Chairperson, the 2018 budget will support the continued quest to strengthen health systems and will focus on a few thematic areas that I will mention. Prime, will be universal health coverage, health care financing, human resource for health, health in all policies, research, electronic-health (e-health), medical tourism and supply chain.

 

Madam Chairperson, our health system strengthening programme targets universal health coverage. What do we mean? We target access to health services for all 16.2 million Zambians without financial cost. That means we need to devise innovative ways of raising finances to provide these health services. For this reason, we are introducing in this House, a Bill to introduce national health insurance.

 

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

 

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet has since, approved the introduction of this Bill. This will change the landscape of health as it will introduce innovative revenue pathways for the health sector. To support universal health coverage further and to strengthen our health care financing, we are working with stakeholders to ensure that we tax certain things such as alcohol drinking and tobacco smoking.

 

Madam Chairperson, innovative health care financing will also involve charging economic fees for training in our health institutions. Universal health coverage will also place a demand on infrastructure expansion. I will just highlight a few infrastructure projects which we will target in 2018. These are:

 

The 650 Health Posts

 

The Government has finally concluded the refinancing of the 650 health posts. We have finally agreed with the Indian Government to complete the 650 health posts and that Government has released US $18 million for the exercise.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, the start date for the construction of the 650 health posts in the North-Western, the Northern, Luapula and Muchinga Provinces is 30^th January, 2018, with the end date being March, 2019. This will be the end date for the construction of the remaining 325 health posts. This will put a stop to a project that has been a headache for all of us.

 

Madam Chairperson, secondly, the Government is going to construct 108 zonal health centres country-wide. Furthermore, the Government will complete the thirty-six district hospitals that are at various levels of construction and an additional three district hospitals. Specialist hospitals shall be constructed in strategic locations in a phased manner. We will construct specialist hospitals in Kasama, Kitwe and Lusaka, where this is already underway. Furthermore, the Cancer Diseases Hospital (CDH) an extension of the current CDH in Lusaka will be built in Mpika and Kitwe.

Madam Chairperson the modernisation of Livingstone, Lewanika and Solwezi Hospitals will start in the first quarter of 2018. General hospitals that will be constructed, some of which have already commenced, these will be in Petauke, Chinsali and Kanyama. We will also be upgrading facilities in densely populated places on the Copperbelt and in Lusaka.

 

Madam Chairperson, a key infrastructure project for 2018, is the investment in solar power for health. We will power 1000 health centres with solar power. This will not only improve the code chain, but it will also improve reproductive health services. Furthermore, this will be coupled with solar powered water pumps and therefore, increase access to clean and safe water for our people and reduce diarrhoea diseases. The nearby schools will equally be powered and the staff houses for teachers and nurses in the catchment area will also be powered. This is a game changer.

 

Madam Chairperson, under human resource for health, I would like to say that to fix health systems, we need to adequate funds. Indeed, we have had a provision in the Budget to recruit 1000 health workers, but that is not all. In 2017, we recruited 9000. In 2018, we will recruit a lot more health workers and these will be close to the number of workers we recruited in 2017, because of the resources which we are going to get from Innovative Health Care Financing.

Madam Chairperson, through the Levy Mwanawasa University Teaching Hospital, we will recruit 3000 new students, and this will increase the pool of health workers in the medium to long term. Furthermore, we have designated thirteen hospitals, country-wide, to conduct specialist training. That means that our specialists will not only be trained at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), but they will be trained in various parts of the country so that they can be providing labour while being trained.

 

Madam Chairperson, this means that we are going to train 500 new specialists in the current strategic period. Our recruitment is at 350, and by January, 2018, we are going to recruit 500 new specialist candidates. This will be significant because since independence, the country only has 200 specialists. However, just in the next five years, we will have 500 new specialists because of innovative human capital development programmes.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, we have introduced new nursing schools and nursing programmes. In addition to that, public health nursing to support the new public health approach has been introduced. Community health training centres for community health workers have also been introduced in various schools. We have expanded the infrastructure in various training institutions to increase uptake.

 

Madam Chairperson, Levy Mwanawasa Hospital was upgraded and there is a training institute next to it. I want to emphasise that the number of beds will increase in 2018 from one hindered and twenty to eight hundred.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to talk about Governance. This is a key priority for the Ministry of Health. To strengthen governance, we have come up with an action plan and we will work with the Anti Corruption Commission (ACC) to strengthen governance, prevent crime, ensure transparency, accountability and efficiency in the use of public resources. Our integrity committee is functional and is working very closely with the ACC.

 

Madam Chairperson local production of drugs is a priority and there will be various facilities that will start producing drugs locally. We will be producing antiretroviral drugs (ARVs) in Zambia in 2018. The production of various drugs will be done in different factories in Zambia. That is the strategic direction that we are following as a Government.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, the flames of favour are urging us forward, and with confidence in our national leadership under His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, they strengthen our institutions and the resolute resolve of our people, we will attain universal health coverage for our people. It is now my high honour to request this august House to support the Ministry of Health Budget for 2018.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief. Firstly, I want to thank you for letting me be the first to debate this Vote. I have brief comments to make on the policy statement.

 

Indeed, as the hon. Minister has said, health is one of the key drivers of economic development. My focus of debate will be premised on the fact that in spite of the very ambitious programme that has been highlighted by the hon. Minister, I want to submit that the funds that have been appropriated cannot sufficiently support that ambitious programme, and I will show why.

 

Secondly, I would like to submit that the way the Ministry of Health has undertaken its budget shows a complete disconnect from the strategic direction that has been given in various documents under the Ministry of Health including the 7^th National Development Plan (7^th NDP), which the hon. Minister gave as a preamble. In that document the ministry undertakes to reorient the health sector towards a primary health care approach. One would have expected that a lot of money would have been set aside for this, but unfortunately that does not appear to be the case under this Budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, at 9.5 per cent, the budget for the Ministry of Health falls short of the continental commitment under the Abuja Declaration. That may not be important, but you also realise that a lot of the budget under the Ministry of Health is still externally funded. The Government only contributes about 40 per cent towards that budget and most of the money that has been given is going to personal emoluments, while leaving very little for programming. It is on that basis that I submit that this Budget, given the fact that Zambia is still a country with a weak health system and a high burden of disease, with exact significant pressure on the hon. Minister to try and realise his dream.

 

Madam Chairperson, for example, the amount of money that was appropriated for human resources for health this year, when compared to last year is not much. The hon. Minister admitted that we are only going to recruit a thousand people compared to when we recruited 9,000. However, human resource for health is one of the priority areas under the national health strategic plan. Our budgeting is already out of sync with the strategic direction which we hope to take. If our priorities are as outlined, we expected to see more money going to those areas.

 

Madam Chairperson, you will discover that if our focus is the primary healthcare route, we expected more money to show under the new department that is responsible for promotive and preventive health and social determinates. This department got very little money, but the budget of this ministry in my view still continues to support the curative approach. All the pronouncements that the hon. Minister has given us do not appear to me to be reengineering our health system and are now going to focus on community and preventive health, which are what we should be doing according to our new strategic direction given in the 7NDP. Everyone else is going that route, anyway.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am sure you are aware that the bulk of our human immunodeficiency virus infection and acquired immune deficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS) response is donor funded. This means that we are still at the mercy of other people. If anything happened and the donors decided to pull the plug, that can create a problem. This is compounded by the fact that, by the hon. Ministers own admission, this new policy of test and treat has increased the uptake for antiretroviral (ARVs) drugs which requires more money. The argument is that because we are now going to have a social health insurance scheme we expect to realise more money, but this august House will only debate on the basis of what has been shown in this Budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have not been told how much is projected to be realised from this social health insurance. It is very welcome, in fact we have been waiting for it for a very long time and wondering why it is not coming because it is one of the methods that can be used to increase the resources the Ministry of Health.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have not seen this so called innovative financing strategy from the ministry. We have just heard for the first time today that this Bill is ready. It is welcome, but we would like to know how much it proposes to bring into the kitty in 2018, going forward so that we can be assured that indeed some of the financing gaps that we have in our Budget will meet this ambitious programme that he has made.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would have loved the hon. Minister to elaborate further on this innovative financing strategy. I know that at the moment, without dispute, most of the money is from direct Budget support and donors. We are now expecting this social insurance scheme, but it not something that has happened yet and we do not know how much it will realise. I expect that the hon. Minister has these projections and it would be nice to know how much that will be.

 

Madam Chairperson, in trying to bring more money, the National HIV/AIDS/STI/TB Council (NAC) Act No. 10 of 2002, allows the hon. Minister to collect money by way of setting up an Aids Fund. I would have loved the hon. Minister to highlight to us why this has never been done because this is another mechanism that can be used to bring in more money. We expect more details on these new taxes whether in the form of a levy through his ministry or a tax by way of a Ministry of Finance.

 

Madam Chairperson, lastly, the successes of 2016, that the hon. Minister has highlighted are welcome because the aim of any Government in the enterprise of health is obviously improved health outcomes. The point I am making in my debate is that it is important that the hon. Minister in allocating resources to the Ministry of Health should probably use a different parameter. We need more money to be given to this ministry. In the event that this social health insurance scheme does not work as expected, the wish list that the hon. Minister gave us will not work.

 

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks I would like to leave the Floor to my other colleagues. I know that the focus of the debates of most of my colleagues will be lamenting why they do not have clinics or clinical officers, but I took the approach of looking at the inadequate financing to this ministry. We need more money as soon as possible.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Kabamba (Kafulafuta): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the vote on health and also for allowing the people of Kafulafuta to be heard.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kabamba: I thank the hon. Minister of Health for elaborating the successes that we recorded in 2017 and the strategic plan for 2018.

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabamba: As a representative of the people from a rural constituency, I will try and focus on how best we can contribute towards improving maternal, neonatal, child and adolescent health.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have recorded tremendous results in as far as reducing the maternal mortality rate. It used to be around 500, but as we speak it is around 398. We have really recorded a tremendous result.

 

Mr Kabamba: So, we have real result. However, we still need to put in more effort. You may also understand that most of these maternal deaths occur from rural areas because of one or two challenges that our women or pregnant women are faced with in these rural areas. I want to indicate that the PF Government is doing everything possible to improve on maternal and child health.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are some of the things that I feel can also contribute to improving maternal health. I will try to categorise my debate in two parts. The first part will focus on capacity building. What kind of cadre should we capacity build so that they can contribute to improving the maternal, neonatal, child and even adolescent health. The second part will be the kind of infrastructure that we can embark on which can contribute to improving the maternal, neonatal, child and including adolescent health...

 

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabamba: Capacity building, Madam Chairperson…

 

Mr Ngulube: Quality!

 

Mr Kabamba: …we need to ensure that we have a lot of midwives in the rural areas. Midwives should be at each and every health post so that when the women come to these health posts or centres, they will be attended to by skilled personnel. Therfore, midwives need to be deployed everywhere. Not only that, we need to also ensure that safe motherhood action groups are in place. These are people that will been drawn from their respective communities, be trained on how best they can engage local people on the benefits on antenatal, delivering at a health facility, post natal, family planning etcetra. Therefore, we need safe motherhood action groups to be trained.

 

Madam Chairperson, we need midwives, safe motherhood groups, but also peer educators. These will be able to engage their fellow adolescents on matters related to sexual and reproductive health. They will be able to discuss a number of issues on how they can prevent themselves from contracting HIV/AIDS, teenage pregnancies, risks that are associated with teenage pregnancies and many such issues. These teething issues can be discussed using peer educators as a conduit of information.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabamba: Madam Chairperson, we have the smart, midwives and peer educators, we also have the local steering committee. The local steering committee should comprise people from various backgrounds like traditional leaders, adolescent, teachers and church leaders so that when they start discussing issues to do with maternal health…

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabamba: …all these people will be able to support the activities.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale: Hammer, hammer!

 

Mr Kabamba: All the myths and misconceptions that are related to maternal and child health will be properly exhausted because all these people will be there to support the activities.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabamba: Therefore, we need midwives, safe motherhood groups, peer educators and local steering committee.

 

Dr Chibanda: Hammer neighbour!

 

Mr Kabamba: I have done away with capacity building Madam Chairperson.

 

What kind of infrastructure should we embark on if we are improve maternal and child health? First and foremost, I am happy that the hon. Minister has indicated that we will continue building health posts and clinics. We need these health posts.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabamba: Our expectant mothers should not walk long distances. They should be able to reach the nearest health post at the right time. Not only that, much as we may have these health posts and clinics, we also need a maternity waiting house or mother’s shelters where expectant mothers once they are in established labour should go and stay as they wait for their Expected Date of Delivery (EDD).

 

Dr Chibanda: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabamba: Therefore, we need mother’s shelters or maternity waiting houses.

 

Madam Chairperson, these peer educators need once in a while to meet at a simple youth centre where they can discuss adolescent sexual and reproductive health issues. Just a simple building is needed, just two rooms, for counselling while the other room can be an open room with a lot of messages written by the peer educators themselves on a number of issues that effect adolescent sexual and reproductive health. A simple youth centre should be there.

 

Mr Siwale: Finally!

 

Mr Kabamba: For the midwife to be there in rural Kafulafuta, we need to embark on providing accommodation.

 

Madam Chairperson, with all these things that I talked about we can improve maternal and child health.

 

Thank you, so much.

 

Mr Munkonge (Lukashya): Madam Chairperson…

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema GBM aya!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Munkonge: …I would like to support the head under discussion…

 

Mr Chisopa: Ema loyal family aya!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Munkonge: …and I actually agree with Dr Kalila that we do not have enough resources allocated to this ministry as is the case with so many other ministries.

 

Mr Mwamba: Question!

 

Mr Munkonge: I would also like to commend the hon. Minister for trying to improve the medical health services…

 

Mr Sampa: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Munkonge: …with such limited resources. The challenge only grows bigger as the population grows. With easy movement even the movement of diseases is easier and it becomes more difficult to control. I will try and stick on the side…Perhaps, I should even declare interest. I have a background of having served at a public hospital not as a medical practitioner but in another field. On the academic side of it, I have been exposed to the medical field. Therefore, if I have fears, I admire the ambition of the hon. minister to try and take our medical services into the next generation, I would ask him and his team to share his dream and involve as many interested parties as possible so that this dream can out live him and probably most of us in here.

 

Madam Chairperson, what comes to mind is the issue of this specialty training programme which will be churned out and is supposed to cover the whole country. My reservations, on this and not taking away from the efforts that the hon. Minister is making to improve our medical services, are we providing a course and training people who will be recognised beyond our borders. We have been accustomed to the quality of our medical personnel being sort after in the region as evidenced by the hon. Minister himself and the quality that he represents for the practitioners in the medical field.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Munkonge: Will we still maintain that standard? That will be the fear. If you spread all these specialists all over the place, we are looking at a situation where we may not have enough specialists to cover the specialties and then dissolved them, recognition may be lost. If that is a possible fear, what is the infrastructure that they will find in the respective places where they will be practicing their specialty?

 

Madam Chairperson, my other concern would be then we have this limitation. Are we churning it out too quickly? I have a bias to this. I think it will be unfortunate if the out of this will be the destruction of the school of medicine under the University of Zambia. This gives the impression that the training programme will now move from the school of medicine of ministry of higher education to ministry to the ministry of health. Is the ministry of health designed to provide education at that level? The other aspects that I would like to talk about, this will be the issue of how effective is our response to the prevention of outbreaks. I know we had a cholera alert and in some cases we have had cholera outbreaks. What is the feedback the cholera issue? It is being controlled? Are we able to control other diseases or outbreaks? What comes to mind on other disease and outbreaks is the situation that right now we seem to have an influx of refugees coming in from the DRC.

 

The most terrible disease that we can probably get from DRC is Ibola. Are we screening these people? If we are, why are we not being updated as the public before some of us stop greeting our brothers from Luapula?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Munkonge: Madam Chairperson, I will not take up much of the time.

 

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Munkonge: I apologise Hon. Chilangwa. It is not directed at you.

 

Madam Chairperson, my main concern is to see if there are changes. Are we involving everyone? Is it something we can sustain beyond the existence of the current team?  Those would be my main concerns and I will not take up much of the time.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Syakalima (Chirundu): Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief given that many of the hon. Members feel fatigued and stressed. The hon. Minister is a doctor and I am behavioural scientist. We can actually, see how stressed hon. Members in this House are. We have failed one test and this is the issue of keeping members in this House up to this time. I hope next time, we will do a good job.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have a few issues to discuss on the Ministry of Health. I am actually shocked to hear the hon. Minister say that they just concluded the deal with the Indian Government of constructing 650 health posts. This issue started a long time ago. This brings me back to the way that we do certain things in this country. This issue is not just for the ministry. It talks about governance for the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have been talking about US$18 million over the last six or so years and yet, this Government spent US$42 million to buy fire tenders. This happened just at a stroke of a pen.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, as a Government, members of the Executive should be able to be advising each other. They should have assessed the situation to see if it was necessary to buy forty-two fire tenders at US$42 million or to pay about US$18 million to complete the health posts countrywide. This is the matter of commonsense.  It is now five years since the works at these health posts stalled. It is not right. This money which is wasted could have funded social services such as education and health in this country. They know very well that the Budget is not enough to support everything that is put across. They are the people who are wasting these resources … 

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: …and I am sure they are feeling bad.  As professionals, there must be things that we can do and those that we cannot do. We need to have a collective responsibility.  We should be able to decide where to put the money so that it helps our society. Someone mentioned that science and education in general, it is meaningless if it cannot be practiced by society in this country. The hon. Minister and I should be able to help the society because we were also helped to go to school. We must be able to put our feet down say we cannot allow certain things to be done.  

 

Madam Chairperson, there is an issue of constructing district hospitals in this country and a total sum of  K98,500,000 has been put aside for these projects. These are buildings that gain value rather than what I have just talked about. The US$42 million spent on fire tenders could have funded the district hospitals and the 650 health posts which are supposed to be constructed countrywide. Why do we not start thinking that way?

 

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of Order!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, yesterday, I was impressed to hear Her Honour the Vice-President say that we should fight corruption.  We all know that corruption is infectious.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister also talked about the purchase of ambulances in this country. I am afraid to mention that I do not agree with his explanation, no matter how much he is going to say it.  We were told that an ambulance costs $288,000. Even if the hon. Minister says these ambulances are Mercedes Benzes or Land Cruisers, it does not add up. This means that if we purchase eight-four ambulances, we will spend about $241 million. If we purchase fifty ambulances, we will spend about $144 million.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is desirable to have those ambulances, but it is also important that we think about the unfinished hospitals in this country. The problem that we have is that we go for expensive things when placing orders. It will not help the hon. Minister to try and convince people that an ambulance costs $288,000 on the Floor of this House.

 

Madam Chairperson, one member said that in this country, we seem to be interested in curative medicines. Today, we have diseases such as cholera in this country. I do not want to hear anything about cholera next year. The Minister of Health, the Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection and the Minister of Local Government should tell us how they are going to curb this disease. Cholera is caused by lack of hygiene. I am afraid that Zambia might pop up on the league table as the dirtiest country.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have Americans digging drainages in this country. They are refusing to give us money because they know we will misuse it. Do we need to call the Americans to come and teach us how to be clean?  

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: How possible is that? It is not right. This cholera has been perennial. How can we have cholera every year in this country? In fact, cholera is a disease of shame. Why are we failing to prevent it? 

 

In fact, I could have kept you up to around 0600 hours today, but some people cannot manage.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Like Given.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, it is important to focus on the social ministries, and these are the Ministries of Health and General Education.  A ministry does not make money, but only depends on what society contributes. However, when it is misused, then, the ministry suffers. Therefore, help us fight the scourge of corruption in your Government and party.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, I thank you so much for the opportunity to wind up debate. I would like to thank Hon.Kalila, Hon. Kabamba, Hon. Mukonge and Hon. Syakalima for their interventions.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have a few comments with regard to what my colleagues have said.  Concerning Hon. Kalila’s concern, yes, we bemoan the inadequacy of the resources appropriated to the health sector. We are pushing towards the Abuja Declaration target of 15 per cent of the budget. We were at 6 per cent and moved to 7.1 per cent. We are almost at 10 per cent and this is work in progress. Furthermore, in other jurisdictions, the Ministry of Health is called the Ministry of Health and Social Services. Those social services include sectors that manage determinants of health like water and sanitation, and community development. If you look at what is appropriated under those ministries and lump it together, we probably weigh beyond 15 per cent. Progress is seen.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the complete disconnect between the strategic documents and the policy statement, I beg to differ and may ask your indulgence just to refresh Hon. Kalila on a few things on public health.

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Remember that my initial statement said that our goal is to strengthen health systems for universal health coverage using an integrated community based primary health care approach and that is what is in the strategic documents.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, universal health coverage simply means all citizens accessing promotive, preventive, curative, rehab and palliative services without feeling the burden in the pockets or any financial cost. Therefore, by issuing a zipped statement that our target is to strength health systems for universal health coverage, we are actually making a clear statement that we are making a balanced investment in the continuum of care beginning with health promotion, then, disease prevention. Therefore, this has been our song on health system strengthening using primary health care approach. The Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) speaks about investing in the health of our citizens in order to derive a healthy citizenry and produce a healthy workforce to drive the social economic development agenda.

 

Madam Chairperson, a multi-sectoral approach is clearly spelt out in my second statement whose theme is ‘healthy in all policy’. The Ministry of Health’s role is to provide a coherent co-ordination of non-health sector players to address the social determinants of disease, water and sanitation, …

 

Mr Mutale: Mwavela!

 

Dr Chilufya: … nutrition, infrastructure, education and so on. Therefore, the zipped statement of health in all approach is a very clear statement of intent to engage with the local Government principally, and other people who manage the drivers of health.

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, we are clearly promoting proper public health in all we have done and the statements we have issued, and have a paradigm shift. We have stopped waiting for patients in the hospitals. Instead, we have shifted into the communities and households where we deliver high impact public health interventions to ensure that our people are healthy so that we can reduce their frequency to the hospitals. That is the approach. Therefore, there is consistence in our statements and there has been an outstanding application to deliver a ministerial statement to the House on the National Health Strategic Plan.

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: We are just waiting for the appropriate time when we will issue that ministerial statement on the National Health Strategic Plan 2017-2021 and conduct a workshop.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regard to human resources for health, 1,000, like I said earlier on, is only speaking to the projected revenue. However, I made a clear statement of intent to match the numbers for 2017, by talking about innovative health care financing. As we present the Bill and a ministerial statement on health care financing, we will show the actuarial that of how much money we will earn out of the National Health Insurance. Therefore, recruiting another 10,000 will not be difficult at all.

 

Madam Chairperson, we want to establish the Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) Fund, but it is part of the broader innovative health care financing.

 

Mr Mutale:Kaili bena, bena investment yaba mu paradigm.

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kabamba was spot on by speaking about community based interventions. I agree with him and would like to tell him that when we say we will take a community based approach, we are talking about safe motherhood action groups, community health workers and neighborhood health committees. In 2017, we reactivated neighbourhood health communities and they will be strengthened in 2018 and this includes the traditional leaders. Adolescent and reproductive health is extremely important for us and that is what I meant by saying that we are going to improve reproductive health services along the continuum of care.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to …

Mr Chabi: Hear, hear! Ekulanda ukoba Minister.

 

Dr Chilufya: … inform Hon. Munkonge and assure him about the specialist training programme. This is a high quality training programme. It is not meant to kill the School of Medicine.There is complementarity. The School of Medicine today has inadequate lecturers. The University Teaching Hospital (UTH) has a lot of consultants who teach part time in the School of Medicine. We have to pay the University of Zambia (UNZA) to take our students for post graduate training. We have the infrastructure and faculty staff by more than 300 per cent. Therefore, we will not abdicate our responsibility to reproduce ourselves. We will produce doctors, nurses and clinical officers like we have done in order to sustain the profession. Remember human resource for health is extremely important. Our hospitals are accredited not only to the local bodies, but to the Southern and Eastern African Health Society. We are also working with the Royal Colleges of Medicine in Europe. Therefore, this is a high quality training programme …

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: … and these doctors will be as good, if not better. The training programme at the UNZA and Zambia College of Medicine and Surgery will be complementary. Therefore, be reassured that people will be qualifying with a fellowship and also with a Master of Medicine (MMed).

 

Madam Chairperson, health security is extremely important. This is the reason we have set up the National Public Health Institute to focus on disease surveillance, disease intelligence, epidemic preparedness, response, capacity building and laboratory networking.

 

We are also the anchor for the Regional Collaborating Centre for Africa Centre for Disease Control. Therefore, we have scored as the first in setting up a National Public Health Institute, and now it is the anchor for the Africa Centre for Disease Control for the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) Hub. Therefore, we have made significant progress in health security.

Madam Chairperson, recently, we had a scare in North-Western Province of hemorrhagic fever and Ebola. We dispatched a team airborne from our ministry, they went in full fledged and they investigated adequately and ruled it out. We are assuring the nation that through the National Public Institute, we have instituted a robust health security programme.

 

Hon. Syakalima spoke about the health posts. He may wish to remember that the health posts were a product of a fifty million dollar loan from the Indian Government. When one contractor’s contract was terminated, there were still some outstanding money, at the same time, time lapsed and, therefore, this led to the cost of construction escalating. It is not that we could not afford to take money from our Treasury to put there, but this is a signed loan agreement. The difference was only because of the termination. Therefore, we had to conclude it, otherwise we would not have realised value for money for the loan that we engaged the Indian Government for. It was important that we had closure over this so that we do not have an audit query.

 

Mr Kambwili: Aya ama three months ba mudala mwa fumya kwisa?

 

Dr Chilufya: I heard the hon. Member when he talked about good governance. That is why I talked about governance in my presentation. I said earlier on and I repeat that we have made progress. Our audit report for 2016, is hundred times better than our previous audit report. That is an improvement. Our integrity committees are in place.

 

Our action plan for crime prevention is in place. We are working closely with the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). The ACC is working. Madam Chairperson, the ACC is working.

 

Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: I know that one hon. Member of Parliament said that the ACC are not working, Madam Chairperson, the only reason why that Member of Parliament said they are not working is because he is surprised that he is still free when he knows that he has corruption charges.

 

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam, he cannot believe that he is still free. Therefore, let us stop accusing innocent people.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sikazwe: Wamvela manje!

 

Hon. Member: Hammer!

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, this habit of just rising in the name of politics, gun wielding, smoldering gun, shooting blanks, tarnishing the image of innocent people and accusing everybody of corruption must stop.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: I do not think the Floor of this august House must be used to accuse people of corruption.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to counsel my colleagues …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: How?

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: … that any allegation of corruption must be backed with evidence. It is not just shouting that there is corruption.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: I am even shocked, Madam Chairperson, that people are surprised that a learned counsel has got resources and yet they are forgetting that a learned counsel is educated and can earn money. How can one tell us today on the Floor of this august House that somebody was poor when somebody did not even have an honorary degree, but earned a degree genuinely from the University of Zambia and has been a lawyer for a long time?

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: That was blasphemous.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ACC is working with us very closely and our integrity committees are well organised and so, our governance programme is being strengthened and people who are accusing the ACC that they are not working, is because they know that they have got crimes and they are wondering why they are free.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: Soon the hour of reckoning is coming for them.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sikazwe: Very soon!

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, on the issue of ambulances, we heard that it is being investigated.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: I would like to repeat on the Floor of this august House that an ambulance can cost anything from very cheap to something very expensive, it depends on what one wants. It depends whether we want a clinic on wheels or an Intensive Care Unit (ICU) on wheels or a sophisticated hospital on wheels. Therefore, instead of shouting ‘corruption, corruption’ let us engage and talk.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Furthermore, this idea of accusing politicians that they are corrupt when they know the procurement law does not allow politicians to sit in procurement committees must stop.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: This is gaining cheap mileage.

 

Prof. Luo: Vooka!

 

Dr Chilufya: We know for sure what the procurement law says. This is the reason why we accuse of people projecting. Maybe some of them when they were ministers they were very corrupt and were interfering in procurement, so they think every minister interferes in procurement.

 

Prof. Luo: Vooka!

 

Dr Chilufya: It is not like. Therefore, I would like to appeal to my colleagues that before they shout ‘corruption’ first they must investigate. Do not just dent people’s images.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chilufya: Do not even accuse people who had a life even before they went into politics for earning money wrongly.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Prof. Luo: Vooka tata!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Vooka!

 

Hon. Members: Quality mudala!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order in the House!

 

VOTE 46/01 – (Ministry of Health – Human Resource and Administration – K568,923,640)

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5000, Activity 007 – Recruitment of Health Workers – K44,370,000. Madam, I made a statement to the effect that the allocation in the budget must reflect the overall priorities of a particular ministry, and I am aware that in the strategic plan under this ministry, prioritises human resources for health. If you have noticed, there has been a drastic reduction from K137,000,000 to K44,370,000 almost one third has been allocated. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how he hopes to achieve going around the solution for our human resources for health which has shortage of somewhere around 37 per cent. Why there is this reduction and how he hopes to finance the gap.

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, as I said earlier on that human resources for health is extremely important to fix health systems. Yes, what is appropriated is for 1,000 health workers because that is what the fescues could allow by our projections. However, we are bringing to the House a Bill. Our actuarial shows that through the introduction of the National Health Insurance, we will introduce new revenue streams with very good revenue. That is why we are saying that we will recruit more health workers. We could not state the figure in there because we have not introduced the Bill on the Floor of the House and therefore, we can only give comfort to Hon. Dr Kalila and the House, that with the innovative care financing, we are going to recruit health workers close to the number that we recruited this year. That is our collective position.

 

The Chairperson: Mr Lufuma, have you changed your mind to seek clarification?

 

Mr Lufuma: Yes, Madam Chairperson, it was the same question.

 

Vote 46/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Lufuma, you have changed your mind.

 

Vote 46/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Votes 46/02, 46/03, 46/04, 46/07, 46/10, 46/11, 46/12, 46/13, 46/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 46/15 - (Ministry of Health – North Western Province – K276,230,280).

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 111 – Construction of District Hospitals – K7,562,040. I would like to find out which district hospitals are earmarked for construction under this vote.

 

The Chairperson: That is a lot of detail. I do not know whether the hon. Minister will have that information?

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, I will release that information as we discuss the National Health Strategic Plan and Infrastructure Operational Plan. Otherwise, we would go up to 0200 hours.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Vote 46/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Votes 46/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 46/17 – (Ministry of Health – Southern Province – K572,957,170).

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5424, Activity 027 – Obstetrics and Gynaecology – K192,920, Activity 030 – Out of Patient Department – K231,860, Activity 032 – Paediatrics – K87,660, Activity 038 – Surgery  - K87,680, Activity 039 – Support Services - K292,290, Activity 055 – Medicine – K131,530, Activity 084 – Patient Services – K827,470, Activity 701 – PHC RMNCAH & Nutrition Services (3) – K827,470.

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, the allocation of resources is based on the indicative planning figures that we get from the Ministry of Finance.

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, first of all, the allocation of resources is based on the indicative planning figures that we get from the Ministry of Finance. Secondly, the recasting or reengineering of our approach to health services, where we are focusing a lot more on health promotion and disease prevention, meant that we devolved resources to preventive activities other than curative activities.

 

I note that Hon. Kalila stated that there was no significant increase in the health promotion budget, but if he had gone further down, he would realise that we have a more than 250 per cent increment in the health promotion budget. What he saw as a reduction is at the central level. When you see a bit of reduction there, it is because we are recasting and refocusing on people who well and healthy and assuming that then there will be less need for curative services.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5025, Activity 701 – PHC RMNCAH & Nutrition Services (17) – K2,136,780. The allocation for 2017 was K57,308,160. In next years’ budget, there is a drastic reduction from K57 million to K2,136,780, basically subtracting a total of K55 million. Our emphasis has been on prevention other than curative activities and this does not reflect in that policy statement. Would the hon. Minister care to tell us how and why there is this drastic reduction?

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, simply answer why the reduction.

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, if you look at that item, it is talking about performance management in the health system. Performance management has now been removed from a unit that used to gobble a lot of money at central level and devolved to various departments. Therefore, the directorate of public health and particularly the unit looking at reproductive health services is the where the money has go to. Secondly, there has been an agreement …

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, the question is on page 737, Programme 5025, Activity 701 – PHC RMNCAH & Nutrition Services (17) – K2,136,780. Have you seen it?

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, yes and I am actually saying that if you read that activity, it talks about performance management. We had a technical support directorate that has been abolished. This directorate used to do performance management and the money has been spread out to other departments which are going to undertake this task. The component that is remaining under this activity is the one on health services. Further, that unit has also received significant funding from the Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency (SIDA). Therefore, we have a lot of funding for the activity and we redistributed the rest to other needy areas.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Vote 46/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 46/18 – (Ministry of Health – Western Province – K300,905,940).

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson …

 

Hon. Government Members: No!

 

Mr Lufuma: The night is still young.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5024, Activity 701 –PHC RMNCAH & Nutrition Services. This year there was an allocation of more than K1 million for the activity, but there is completely nothing for next year. Could we have an explanation as to why nutrition is not being given the necessary attention by the Ministry of Health?

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Chairperson, I just want to repeat what I said that resources have been redistributed. First of all, we previously used to see big amounts at the central level, which is at the ministry headquarters and provincial headquarters. We will now see similar increases at district level because of our shift to place resources, both human and financial, at district level where the implementation of activities is. Secondly, performance management has been removed from a directorate that used to gobble a lot of money and redistributed or pushed to the lower levels, which is at the districts. Therefore, the allocation to that item is explained by the shift in our health service delivery model.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 46/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, allow me to thank you for the very good attendance and hard work that you have exhibited as national leaders. Indeed, this is as it should be, especially that nobody has been dozing.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

_____________

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

(Progress reported)

 

________

 

MOTION

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

________

 

The House adjourned at 2341 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 8^th December, 2017.