Tuesday, 7th November, 2017

Tuesday, 7^th November, 2017

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that, in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other Government Business, the Chief Whip, Hon. Richard Musukwa, MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House today, Tuesday, 7^th November, 2017, until Her Honour the Vice-President returns later in the day.

PARLIAMENT TELEVISION

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that the National Assembly, with the support of the German Government, has set up a fully functional television studio here at Parliament Buildings for broadcasting of Parliamentary debates. In this regard, the National Assembly Television Staff is compiling hon. Members of Parliament’ profiles for airing on Parliament Television. This will avail hon. Members an opportunity to give their personal profiles, and discuss their constituency work. Therefore, hon. Members wishing to feature on this programme are free to go to Parliament radio studio to make arrangements to be included in the programming. I wish to encourage all hon. Members to take full advantage of this platform to engage their constituents.

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RULING BY MR SPEAKER

RULING BY THE HON. MR SPEAKER ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR T. S. NGULUBE, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KABWE CENTRAL PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY ON FRIDAY, 27^TH OCTOBER, 2017

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, the House will recall that on Friday, 27^th October, 2017, during Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, and the hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali Parliamentary Constituency, Mr K. A. Mukosa, MP, was asking a question, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency, Mr T. S. Ngulube, MP, raised the following point of order:

“Mr Speaker, I apologise to my colleague from Chinsali for interrupting his question. However, my point of order is similar to the ruling that you have just delivered on the system.

“Sir, I want to find out why the system was showing a list of hon. Members to ask Her Honour the Vice-President questions when, in actual fact, the session had not yet began. Why I say so is that people are pressing way in advance.

“Mr Speaker, I also want to refer to a ruling rendered by Madam First Deputy Speaker where the system showed that I asked two questions on one question for oral answer session. I want it to be made clear that this system is not able to detect people who indicate before Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time actually comes and disadvantages some hon. Members who might want to ask questions.

“Sir, further, for example, the names of those who do not ask Her Honour the Vice-President questions will remain on the system and be picked up on the next question. As a result of this, there was a ruling that I asked two questions on one question for oral answer segment when, in fact, my name had remained on the list.”

In my immediate response to the point of order, I reserved the ruling to enable me to study the matter and render an informed ruling given the technical nature of the issues raised. Hon. Members, I have since studied the matter and I now proceed to render my ruling.

Hon. Members, the point of order by Mr T. S. Ngulube, MP, raises the following issues:

inability of the electronic system to prevent hon. Members from indicating their intention to ask Her Honour the Vice-President questions before the Vice-President’s Question Time actually commences; and

(b) inability of the electronic system to remove from the queue, names of hon. Members who indicate their intention to ask a question but, for some reason, are unable to do so, resulting in same names being automatically available for the subsequent questions.

Hon Members, let me deal with the issues in the order in which they have been presented.

inability of the electronic system to prevent hon. Members from indicating their intention to ask Her Honour the Vice-President questions before the question time segment has actually commenced. Hon Members, my investigations into the assertion by Mr T. S. Ngulube, MP, that the electronic system in the Chamber does not prevent Members from indicating their intention to ask questions during Her Honour the Vice-President's Question Time, in advance, revealed that the Hon Member's assertions are meritorious. The House may wish to know that the system was initially configured to allow hon. Members to indicate their intention to speak by switching on the microphone at any time as long as they have logged in. This configuration resulted in hon. members making their requests to speak well in advance of Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time being announced.

In view of the above, and in order to remedy the situation highlighted by the hon. Member for Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency, in his point of order, I directed the Clerk to re-configure the system in order to prevent advance requests to ask questions before Her Honour the Vice-President's Question Time is announced. The directive, as you may recall from last week’s Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, has since been implemented.

inability of the electronic system to remove, from the queue, names of Members who indicate their intention to ask a question, but for some reason are unable to do so, resulting in the same names being automatically available for the subsequent question. Hon. Members, with regard to this second limb of the hon. Member’s point of order, relating to the failure or inability of the electronic system to remove from the queue, names of hon. Members who indicate their intention to ask a question, but for some reason, are unable to do so, resulting in the same names being automatically available for the subsequent question. I wish to inform the House that this situation did, in fact, arise. My investigations revealed that the problem is caused by some hon. Members who do not switch off their microphones after Her Honour the Vice-President's Question Time Session.

Hon. Members, let me apprise the House that the electronic system in the Chamber is currently configured to allow a maximum of twenty-five requests at any given time during Her Honour the Vice-President's Question Time and ten requests at a time during any other Business of the House. However, this configuration may be altered to either increase or reduce the number of requests at any one given time, and also to delete the list of members who request to speak, but for some reasons are unable to do so.

In this regard, to ensure that the problem described above does not recur in future, I have further directed the Clerk to ensure that all requests to ask questions or debate are deleted from the system whenever one segment of the business of the House has been completed. This will ensure that every member is given equal opportunity to make a fresh start and request.

I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

DISPUTE BETWEEN KONKOLA COPPER MINES AND THE MINE WORKERS UNIONS

78. Mr Chispoa (Mkushi South) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

whether the dispute between Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and the mineworkers unions regarding the manner in which KCM was outsourcing labour had been resolved; and
if not, what interventions the Government was making to resolve the dispute and to avert the loss of jobs following the decision by the mining company to outsource labour.

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mrs Simukoko): Mr Speaker, in answering the question, allow me to give the background of what caused this situation to arise.

In Vedanta Resources Plc group’s quest to grow total copper production to 400,000 metric tonnes per annum in the next few years and enhance Konkola Copper Mines’ (KCM) mining operation and consolidate its leadership position in Zambia for the next fifty years, it has adopted a business model that entails the contracting out of some operations to third party organisations. The business model that the company has taken to achieve its growth strategy is the same as in some mining companies in Zambia, including Dangote Industries Zambia. Areas of operations are in the hands of partners on behalf of the mines. Typically, the partners also employ their own employees.

Sir, given that some of the areas being handed over to partners are currently being operated by KCM, a complete handover to their partner would require KCM withdrawing its labour to allow the partner full control of the area. As a consequence, KCM employees would become excess. Therefore, the options available regarding KCM employees include secondment, a temporary attachment of employees whose contract of employment will remain with KCM, and transfer of the employment contract of our employees from KCM to the contractor, in keeping with the law which is provided for under Section 35 of the Employment Act No. 268 of the Laws of Zambia. At the moment, KCM has indicated that it had opted for secondment. In an event that it moves to transfer of contract, then, the law will apply.

Mr Speaker, the dispute between KCM and the Mineworkers Unions, regarding the manner in which KCM was outsourcing labour has not been resolved. This was after KCM managementoffered the terms of secondment and the union counter-offered. Therefore, no agreement was reached and thereafter, a dispute was declared by KCM.

Mr Speaker, all these processes are within the laws of Zambia. The background to the dispute concerns the Vedanta Group, which I have already talked about. I wish to report that the ministry was informed, in writing, by KCM that the two parties met last on Friday, 3^rd November, 2017, after a number of meetings, to discuss the matter in an attempt to resolve the dispute. I am informed that the two parties failed to reach a settlement and have resolved to proceed to appoint conciliators in accordance with Section 75(c) of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, Cap. 269 of the Laws of Zambia on the resolution of disputes.

Sir, in this regard, the Government cannot intervene, at this stage, in order to allow for negotiations between the parties in accordance with the provisions of the law. I want to reiterate that the Government has no legal right to interfere with collective bargaining. It has to be left freely to the parties.

However, Mr Speaker, the Government can intervene if it notices that the law is being ignored in the process, just as it quickly intervened and stopped KCM when it heard that before the processes were followed, KCM went ahead to write letters to the workers. As I am talking to you, no letter has been issued to any employee.

Mr Speaker, options available regarding KCM employees include secondment and transfer, as earlier explained.

Mr Speaker, with regards to transfer of contract of employment, according to provisions of Section 35 of the Employment Act No. 268 of the Laws of Zambia, the law requires that a written contract of service not be transferred from one employer to another unless the employee, bound by such contract consents to the contract and the particulars thereof are endorsed by a proper officer, who in this case is the Labour Commissioner.

Further, Sir, the Labour Commissioner, before endorsing any particulars of transfer on a written contract of service, is expected to ensure that the employee fully understood the nature of the transaction and has freely consented to the transfer and that his or her consent has not been obtained by false or undue influence or as result of misinterpretation or mistake.

Mr Speaker, following the failure by the two parties to agree on the nature of secondment, KCM declared a dispute. According to Section 75 (c) of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act No. 269 of the Laws of Zambia, the parties to the negotiations, having failed to arrive at a settlement within the stipulated time, are expected to proceed to the next stage, which among others, includes an appointment of a conciliator appointed by the parties to the disputes. If they agree to one conciliator, they can use that one.

However, Sir, if they disagree, they will come up with a board of conciliation, in which case, each party will appoint its independent conciliator and then send a number of names to the Minister of Labour and Social Security which, in turn, will appoint a chairperson to the conciliation, among the list of names.

Sir, the Labour Commissioner, on receipt of the information will request the Minister to appoint, within a period of seven days from the date of the request, a conciliator or chairperson of the board of conciliation from a list of names submitted and agreed upon by the representatives of employees and the representatives of employers. The conciliator or the board shall, within seven days of his or its appointment, summon the parties to the collective dispute to a meeting and proceed to conciliate in the dispute.

Additionally, the law states that any party to a collective dispute or any agent or representative who refuses or neglects, without reasonable cause or excuse, to attend the meeting summoned by the conciliator or a board of conciliation, will be guilty of an offence. Sir, this is the stage where the matter has reached. The ministry is waiting for the names of possible conciliators to move to the next stage.

Mr Speaker, the Government has been monitoring the process at each stage to ensure that parties follow the procedure outlined in the law. If not, the ministry will intervene, as indicated earlier, when it stopped KCM from issuing letters.

Mr Speaker, the relationship between an employer and a worker is very important. The two parties need each other and will need each other even after the dispute. This is why the conciliation process is very important to maintain the cordial relationship. As Government, both parties mean a lot to us. Both the employer and the employee are very important to us and this is why we are mediating.

Allow me, Sir, to assure the nation that the ministry will work with all the parties concerned to ensure that no jobs are lost. Further, the ministry will see to it that there is no violation of the provisions enshrined in the Employment Act No.268 of the Laws of Zambia and the Industrial Labour Relations Act No. 269 of the Laws of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I would like the people of Zambia to understand that this is not the first time that such things have happened in Zambia. We have had many employers and employees in different organisations go through such. For example, there was a merger of the Breweries and the Zambia Breweries in 2010, where a new entity was formed and there was a transfer of workers in that merger.

Mr Speaker, we had the Zambia Bottlers and the Copperbelt Bottling Limited merge. We had the transformation of the Zambia National Provident Fund to National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) where we had a movement of workers. Employees were transferred from Standard Chartered Bank to former Finance Bank Zambia Limited, which had taken over the branches that had been closed by Standard Chartered Bank. There was movement of workers there. The latest case involves Finance Bank where workers have been transferred to a new entity. The details of the transfer are still under discussion. We also had variations of contracts at Zamox Limited and the list is endless. This is just to assure the people that the Government is on top of things and ensure that everything is done correctly, in line with the laws of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the almost ministerial statement answer.

Laughter

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, I would like to begin by saying, indeed, outsourcing is law in Zambia, but I think it goes with the way it is being implemented. I will try to cite a few examples.

Sir, in 2011, Moreman contractor was engaged by KCM and it transferred about 600 employees. Billy Paul Smith was engaged and was operating at Nchanga Open Pit Mine. During this Process, KCM transferred 800 employees. U & M Group was contracted and 600 employees were transferred by KCM. After two years, KCM terminated the contract with these contractors. As I speak now, the employees are on the streets.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, JAX contractors is engaged by KCM, which has since transferred the ST-1030 scoopton equipment loaders, which are working underground.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chisopa: A number of …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Speaker is speaking. You ought to know that better by now. Can you get to the point. When you gave the background about transfers, I allowed you. Now, you are talking about equipment.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Please, shorten your intervention.

Laughter

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for the guidance.

Sir, a good number of equipment has been transferred to the newly-outsourced contractor called JAX. This means that the KCM employees will remain unemployed. I would like the hon. Minister to assure the miners that their jobs are safe and that KCM will not relieve them of their duties.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member listened carefully to what I explained, I said that there is a lot of concern about this issue. The Government is definitely monitoring the situation. As I said earlier, we have three vibrant trade unions within that industry that are working with the KCM management to ensure that whatever decision is arrived at does not hurt the workers. The Government would not want to see the 1,000 workers on the streets, but instead would want them to be part of the KCM management. We would like to see negotiations that will ensure that the worker’s jobs are safe. Therefore, we are on top of things.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Lufuma: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to raise a point of order. May I also apologise to the hon. Member for Mbala for interrupting him.

Sir, I rise on a point of order with a heavy, sad and mournful heart. Therefore, I would like you to sincerely listen to me so that I can finish my point of order.

Laughter

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, on Saturday, 4^th September, 2017, His Excellency the Republican President paid a visit to Kabompo, and it was his first time in that area. Unfortunately, instead of it being a joyous day of jubilation, it turned out to be a dark Saturday. On Friday, the previous night, a contingent of the Patriotic Front (PF) cadres clad in police uniforms landed …

Interruptions

Mr Lufuma: … in Kabompo as an advance party to His Excellency the President’s delegation. In the night, the contingent of PF cadres clad in police uniforms descended on an innocent soul, a citizen of Kabompo, raining blows like nobody has ever seen before. They broke the neck and arms of the young and innocent person and left him for dead.

Ms Lubezhi: It is sad.

Sir, this person was murdered in cold blood.

Ms Lubezhi: Aah!

Mr Lufuma: Kabompo is not only saddened, but also shocked at this barbaric, nauseating and increasingly violent and unacceptable behaviour by PF cadres. As you can imagine, the local police officers are helpless as they cannot follow up these untouchable cadres just like nobody follows up the untouchables in PF nowadays.

Sir, again, an innocent life has yet been lost without reason and sadly so, especially given the occasion of the first-ever visit of His Excellency the Republican President to Kabompo. What an omen. Is the PF Government, in particular the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who is sitting quietly and seemingly enjoying his peace oblivious to what has happened in Kabompo in order to keep quiet and not commiserate or condemn, in the strongest terms, the barbaric, nauseating and unacceptable behaviour by the PF cadres, clad in police uniforms, who have caused the death of an innocent person by the name of Kanjindo Junior? Is he in order not to only condemn such an act by the alleged PF cadres, who have not only murdered an innocent soul, but to also continue bringing the name your party and of His Excellency the Republican President into disrepute and ridicule? In fact, these carders are painting their party as violent and intolerant? I need your ruling on this matter. The people of Kabompo are waiting for that ruling from, you, Mr Speaker. I pray that it will be in their favour.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I know we have belaboured the issue relating to points of order. I will not go over it again. Nevertheless, let me simply point out, for the information of the House, that currently, I am discouraging, and strongly so, the presentation of ministerial statements. My reason is very simple. In order for us to complete our business with dispatch, we need to spend as much time as possible on the core business of this meeting, which is the Budget. That is the focus. Even where ministerial statements have been volunteered by the Executive, I have actually turned them down because I want to make progress.

Of course, that does not take away your right to hold hon. Members on the right to account. If you want to hold the right to account on any business, issue or incident, file a question. In fact, the last three or four questions on our Order Papers, including the one we are considering now, have all been urgent questions. That is the way we will proceed. So, if you want the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to account for what you have just described, my doors are open and, on behalf of the people of Kabompo, you can proceed to file a question on the matter. That is my ruling and I am sure the people of Kabompo have heard.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Speaker, being a veteran or seasoned champion for workers’ rights, I am sure that the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security is fully aware that as recently as 2016, Zambia was declared as having the cheapest labour costs in copper production. Only China can produce copper with cheaper labour than Zambia.

Sir, I am sure she is also aware that mines in Zambia have always been associated with pensionable employment. I grew up in a township called Chamboli in Kitwe. All the miners in that township were on pensionable employment and it was demeaning to be on contract at that time. Therefore, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security when the law made contractual labour in the mines a normal option and why pensionable employment stopped being the norm as was the case before.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, I think we need to understand that when we opted to liberalise our economy, the labour laws in the country also changed to suit the situation. An employee can opt to be employed on contract. I think we have all heard of people being employed on contract, whereby the conditions of service are discussed and negotiated between the parties. At the end of the contract, people are paid gratuity.

Mr Speaker, there are also workers who are engaged on temporary basis, which is not permanent employment. There are also workers who do piece work. So, the types of jobs are itemised in the law.

Mr Speaker, there is also casualisation of labour, which has been a problem in this country. Under casualisation, a worker is supposed to work on casual terms only up to six months. However, we have heard of workers whose contracts are continuously renewed every six months.

Sir, I think we have heard of talk about the need for the people of Zambia to have a reading culture. If we all read the laws that we enact and understood them, I think some of these grievances we are getting would not be there. Most of the time, we allow employers to take advantage of our ignorance and continue abusing us. Most people in this country would want to be engaged in permanent and pensionable employment because there is security. However, in a liberalised economy, unions, employers, workers and the Government all agreed to the laws that we are talking about.

For example, Sir, temporary or contractual work, such as casualisation or piece work, is not illegal in this country. It is part of the law. However, there are employees in this country who are on permanent and pensionable basis and I am aware that there are some employees who do not want to be on permanent and pensionable employment. Therefore, there are some workers who choose to be on contract, whereby they can get gratuity, maybe, after every three years or so. So, workers have a choice. The employer also decides which jobs will be on a full time basis or as piece work.

Mr Speaker, I think hon. Members are aware that unions, the Government and employers meet at a tripartite consultative council meeting where labour laws and conditions of service are discussed. So, if workers generally feel uncomfortable with something and would want it to be removed from the law, they can say so through their unions or in person. Some people write to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to express their feelings on certain issues.

However, Sir, dealing with labour matters is not an easy job. We do not just dictate to the employers. Employers have their positions and the Government also has its position on these matters. So, these are some of the things we have been negotiating. For example, it is not a secret that casualisation has been abused in this country. This is a concern of the Government and we are warning some employers that we will have no choice, but to abolish casualisation if they continue with this kind of behaviour. I think it is one item we will discuss in the next tripartite consultative council meeting. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security now has a lot of evidence that casualisation is being abused in this country. The reason for this is that employers are taking advantage of the high unemployment rate in the country. So, those are some of problems that we are facing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear! Ema long answer aya!

Laughter

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, it is gratifying to hear the hon. Minister confess that superintending over the impasse between the unions, workers and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) Plc management is actually not an easy road. Not so long ago, we saw that former workers of Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) Plc, and if I am not mistaken I stand to be corrected, were converted from miners to farmers. They were given farmland to find an alternative way of life because of the lack of jobs.

Sir, in the midst of saying that both the mines and unions are operating in their negotiations within the law, the hon. Minister has given us assurances that, now, she has been informed that there is conciliator who has come over an impasse of three months or slightly more. Against her assurance, if at the final analysis jobs are lost, how will this sit with the Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto of lower taxes, more jobs and more money in people’s pockets because those people are very anxious, at the moment, about job losses?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, I know you have been very elaborate in your responses, but you may want to shorten them in future.

Laughter

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance. As Government, we do not take pleasure in seeing jobs being lost, especially that there is high unemployment in the country, as I said earlier. Therefore, we have been monitoring the KCM impasse and from what is on the table right now, we can see that both parties are very careful to ensure that jobs are not lost.

Mr Speaker, however, the law guides when employees refuse to be transferred. So, that option could always be there. An example is what is happening between Finance Bank and African Banking Corporation (BancABC) Zambia. Some workers have opted not to be transferred to the new employer. Therefore, they have been declared redundant and paid their severance packages.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to preempt what would happen if the negotiations went the other way because I would, maybe, instill fear in either party. However, what I would just assure the hon. Member of Parliament is that we are doing everything possible to avoid any loss of jobs.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister and, indeed, the Government, truly aware of what is happening underground? From the information from that mine, it is clear that a plumber or fitter working under Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) is getting a higher amount of money while the one working under a contractor is getting far less money than what is taxable, resulting in the Government losing revenue on Pay as You Earn (PAYE). So, there is pandemonium amongst the workforce in the mine.

Mr Speaker, that is making me wonder whether truly, the Government is aware of what is happening there. I want the hon. Minister, in no uncertain terms, to declare that truly, she knows what is happening there.

Sir, there was a study of the situation at that mine, which was undertaken last week by a group which some hon. Members of Parliament were a part of. They found out that the situation at the mine is very saddening. Is the hon. Minister and the Government truly aware of what is happening underground? The synopsis we got is that there is animosity.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, I think I said earlier that most workers in the mining sector have trade unions. The role of the trade union is to ensure safety of the worker. If we, as a Government, start going into issues that are for trade unions, we will be cited for interference. Then, we will start appearing before the International Labour Organisation (ILO) to start explaining why we are interfering. The law and ILO standards encourage free collective bargaining.

Mr Speaker, the unions must work freely and independently from the Government. The employers must work freely and independent from the Government. Any grievances that the unions cannot handle must be brought to our offices so that we can mediate and conciliate. We do not interfere in the relationship between the parties.

Mr Speaker, there are grievances we receive and attend to when they are reported to us. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security cannot know what is happening underground if things are not reported to it. When reports of ill-treatment of workers have come, we have moved in, as Ministry of Labour and Social Security together with the trade unions to resolve them. If there are no trade unions, we move in directly to resolve issues through our inspectorate.

Sir, I know why people are receiving outsourcing with mixed feelings. In some cases, it has worked well, in others, it has not. Our investigations have shown that our Zambian sub-contractors are the ones ill-treating the workers. It is not even the foreigners. It is our own people. We have already warned one or two that if they do not stop, we will revoke their licences. When grievances have been reported to us, we have taken action.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I have been following the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) issue very well. Last time, when there was a problem, it was the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development who engaged KCM, and I think he issued some threats to them that if they continued their practice, the Government would punish them. That is what I heard, in my own understanding.

Sir, the law is very clear. Under the Industrial and Labour Relations Act Cap. 269 as well as the Employment Act Cap. 268, you cannot transfer an employee to another employer without his consent. In fact, in court, they say that is a unilateral variation of a term of a contract. It means that people have been fired when that happens.

Mr Speaker, why should the Government always wait until people have been thrown onto the streets for it to react? The hon. Minister is telling us that her ministry does not have a policy to safeguard the employment of these workers and that it is not only KCM that is doing this, but almost all the mining companies. Very soon, there will be no job security whatsoever.

Mr Speaker, we have our own laws, yet we do not implement them. I also know that every time KCM threatens to leave, I do not know whether it threatens to leave for sure, but everybody keeps quiet when it does that. What is the position of the ministry regarding the already written down provisions of the law? We do not need to start looking for unions or the International Labour Organisation (ILO) or anybody to protect us. The law is there. What is the position of the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security on this issue?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: The Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development already made its position known. So, we want to know the position of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security regarding the unilateral variation of thousands of contracts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, I would have been very happy had the hon. Member of Parliament given details of the violations. What I know is that whenever there is a violation, and the Government is are aware of it, it moves in to correct the situation. The role of the trade unions is to be on the spot because the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is here in Lusaka. Therefore, it cannot know what is happening in Mansa, for instance. So, if there is a union there, and our inspectors, they will be there to protect the workers.

Mr Speaker, the laws are dynamic. There are times when we are very backward on the law, when we have not amended it to suit a situation or what we think are grievances, which workers are bringing across. That is why laws are made. However, there are structures that we follow. The hon. Minister is not supposed to be seen to be breaking the law. The hon. Minister should protect the laws of the country just as all other citizens do.

Sir, regarding what is happening now, I said earlier that I do not want to pre-empt what is being negotiated. However, I can assure the nation that we, as a Government, are very careful to ensure that our workers at KCM do not lose their jobs.

Mr Speaker, we are very, very cautious about that. That is why we are monitoring the negotiations and are up to date. We are being told what is happening and we are guiding, where we can. I think the unions that are there, together with management, know what they are doing. I appeal to the public to give KCM and the trade unions space to negotiate. Sometimes, too much public interference may work against the same people we are trying to protect. We are guiding them. Give us an opportunity to guide them and do the correct thing. Give us space.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Speaker, I think this country has given the hon. Minister enough time and space. As a matter of fact, the reason people are concerned is that there are many people who are employed in the mines who are affected by this decision. The issues are simple. The issue of loss of employment and that of ...

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, please, I know you want to analyse the situation and probably tender advice in the process, but the essence of your intervention now is to seek clarification.

Mr Mbangweta: Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I wanted to put context to my question. The question is: In the context of the accrued benefits under the old contracts, what safeguards is the Government putting in place to ensure that the concerned employees are not losing out, bearing in mind that if they are transferred to a new contractor, there is a possibility of being dismissed and losing everything they have accrued over the years?

Mr Speaker: There you are; you can be specific.

Laughter

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, in a case of a transfer, the worker does not lose at all. There are a lot of cases I mentioned earlier when I was giving my answer. A worker can choose to be paid his or her accrued benefits or transfer them to where they are going.

However, I think I made it clear when I discussed KCM issue that it is not even talking about transfer as it did earlier. After the negotiations, it has now decided to just second the workers and when that activity is completed, they will go back to KCM. This is the information we have at the moment.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chali (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has tabulated quite a number of companies that have outsourced contracts. In her opinion, as a renowned labour advocate, has it been beneficial to the employees according to the listed companies that she had mentioned?

Mrs Simukoko: Yes, Mr Speaker, out of that list I gave hon. Members in this House, we monitored what they did and the workers chose to go. Whenever there is a transfer, a takeover or secondment or whatever change in the conditions of service, unions negotiate and, as they do that, they may come up with options. Like I said, the negotiations are still going on. We do not know what options the union might put on the table after consulting the workers.

Mr Speaker, sometimes in the negotiation process, some workers opt to stop working and request to be paid their terminal benefits and that is done. However, there are also cases where the workers are asked to migrate and their accrued benefits go with them and they accept. So, all these issues are negotiable and I am very confident that the mine workers unions, which are in existence, will do the right thing.

As I said earlier, what we, as a Government, do not want is to see any one lose his or her job. We want all of the workers to be satisfied with the negotiations.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): I am grateful, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to debate. Allow me to thank the hon. Minister for a well-elaborated answer. However, allow me to indicate that as far as the miners at the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), Nchanga and Konkola mines are concerned, the Government’s voice is deafeningly silent and probably only the voice of the employer is being heard. We do not want the hon. Minister to intervene in order to interfere with these negotiations, but I want to find out from her which other ministry or department the people can channel their grievances because they want to hear the voice of the Government in support of the workers, which is their cry as we stand.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member’s concern is also our concern. Normally, collective bargaining does not allow the Government to interfere or intervene where it is not necessary. However, the Government is talking to both parties that they give us an opportunity to explain to the workers. My counterpart, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, and I will guide them where we are and we are monitoring the process by ensuring that it is done in the workers interest.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mecha (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, I may have a different view to what other questioners have actually advanced. I had an opportunity to interact with miners about a couple of weeks ago and their biggest concern …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, let me just provide some quick guidance. You know when you preface your intervention in that manner, you seem to suggest that you want to debate. You have a view different from others which probably will come by way of clarification. However, if you can, get to the clarification quickly.

Mr Mecha: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The biggest concern that the miners have expressed is not about outsourcing, but basically the implementation of outsourcing arrangements. The fears that the miners have are two-prong. Firstly, they are concerned that once placed on secondment or, indeed, on transfer, they may slip into lower salary scales or inferior conditions of service to what they are enjoying currently. Secondly, they have indicated that the three unions operating under Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) are not impartial and they are divided. Therefore, they cannot represent their views effectively. I would like the hon. Minister to state in very clear terms how the Government will help to allay these fears.

Mrs Simukoko: Thank you, Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, we are monitoring the situation. At the moment, we are at conciliation stage. At that stage, the unions choose who they want to conciliate on their part and the employer also chooses and I, as a Minister, will only choose the chairperson if they do not agree on one. This is all part of the process.

Mr Speaker, even if we hear that the unions are not doing what they are supposed to do, which I do not agree, because I know that when workers are anxious, they definitely would say a lot of things, we are interacting with them. So far, from our interaction, as the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, we know what the unions are talking about. The division the hon. Member is talking about we have not heard about because they are meeting and talking each other.

However, Mr Speaker, if the ministry observes that either party is getting out of the way, we will always move in. For your information, the Labour Commissioner has been trotting between Lusaka and the Copperbelt just to ensure that the process is alright. He has since reported to me that everything is under control. It will be very strange for any trade union to negotiate a raw deal for its members because it risks resignations from that union. Therefore, they are doing everything possible to ensure that everything runs smoothly.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I take recognition of your good works. Recently allowed the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters to go to the Copperbelt and it held a public hearing there. Many issues were raised by the concerned parties and I picked one of them. The miners are saying the outsourcing has come about because KCM is broke. May I find out from the hon. Minister if this matter has been investigated and if so, what is an honest financial outlook of KCM?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, before I answer that question, I wish to state that I think I was very clear in my presentation that what KCM wants to do is to explore another side of the mine which will need the employment of a lot of mechanism. The KCM has told the Government what it wants to do. When we look at its financial statements, we have not seen that it is broke. As far as the Government is concerned, KCM is doing well. It is not broke …

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, those who think that KCM is broke should bring reports to that effect. The information and documents we have are not showing that KCM is broke. So, if there are some people in here who think that KCM is broke, they are free to bring the information to us.

Thank you, Speaker.

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Mr Speaker, Section 28(c)(1) and (2) does not prescribe the ...

Mr Speaker: Of what?

Mr Kalobo: Section 28(c)(1) and (2) of the Employment Act does not prescribe the cumulative duration for renewal of fixed term contracts of employment after which an employee could be declared permanent.

Sir, what is the Government doing to stop casualisation, loss of employment and low wages, which have entered Dangote and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) through outsourcing? When will the Government cure this lacuna so that the employees in Wusakile, and Zambia at large, are protected and also that it does not always have “to think of all possible solutions to protect the employees of Zambia” every time such a situation arises?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, firstly, I am not sure which Act was quoted. I would have preferred the hon. Member to have read out the Act as there are so many of them.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Wusakile, do you have the Act in front of you?

Mr Kalobo: I do not have the Act with me, I just quoted it.

Mr Speaker: Very well, you do not have it. Hon. Minister, continue.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, I cannot relate to what the hon. Member said. Could he repeat his question in relation to the definition of that Act?

Mr Speaker: Take a seat, hon. Minister. Hon. Member for Wusakile, repeat your question.

Mr Kalobo: Mr Speaker, Section 28(c)(1) does not prescribe the cumulative duration for renewal of fixed term contracts. Maybe, let me ask the question in another way.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalobo: When employees are offloaded to another company, for example, they way they are about to be transferred to JCX, they are made to sign one year contracts. Once that one year contract expires, they are made to renew for another one year and continue to do so every year ...

Mr Mutelo: And continue signing.

Laughter

Mr Kalobo: ... until further notice. Therefore, I want to find out when the Government will cure this lacuna by amending it so that employees in Wusakile Constituency and Zambia at large are protected? I heard the hon. Minister say that the Government is thinking of everything possible to protect employees. What measures will the Government put in place so that it does not have to “think about every possible solution” all the time?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Ema jerabo aya!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, I am sure the hon. Member is referring to casualisation.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, I do not know how we can stop thinking. If we stop thinking, then, we will not rule properly. Therefore, we have to think every day and we will continue to do so.

Sir, I believe the hon. Member is talking about casualisation. We have been very clear that this law is already in place under either Section 15(5) or 5(15) of the Employment Act. The law states that any job of a permanent nature cannot be casualised. If I am employed for six months on a job that is of a permanent nature and after six months, there is an extension of another six months, I must inform the proper officers at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security if I am not represented by a union. If I belong to a union, I must report my situation to it. That is what the law states. The law already protects us, but people do not report because they are scared that they might lose their jobs and because of that casualisation has continued as a result of that.

Mr Speaker, like I said earlier, there is unemployment in this country and we understand that people are nervous and scared to lose the little that they have. However, we need to stop this and work together to find a solution. There are many workers who have come to report having a job of a permanent nature, yet serving on casual terms for a stated period and we have approached the employers to ensure that they are employed on a permanent and pensionable basis.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chiteme (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I would consider a company broke if it does not pay its contractors and customers for a period of six months or more.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Sir, when His Excellency the President visited Mufulira and Kitwe, in particular, those of us who were present heard him say, in person, that this Government does not support this outsourcing. The three leaders of the unions that the hon. Minister referred to, at a public hearing on the Copperbelt, also said that they were not in support of the outsourcing by Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). Is it the position of the hon. Minister, today, in this House, to be in support of the outsourcing?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, I was very clear in my statement that outsourcing is not illegal. That means it is within the law. A worker has the right to refuse to be outsourced. Like I said earlier, there is a law that protects a worker ...

Mr Kalobo: Question!

Mrs Simukoko: Can I continue?

Hon. Members: Question!

Mrs Simukoko: An employee has to accept and endorse a transfer before he or she can be transferred. If he or she refuses, then, he or she cannot be forced to go where he or she does not want to go. The employee has a right to choose. I do not want to pre-empt the negotiations that are taking place.

Hon. Members: Question!

Mrs Simukoko: The workers at KCM have a right, in line with the law, to choose whether to go or not. So, whether those who are saying “question” want or do not the outsourcing, it is the employee who has the right and not them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I am extremely disappointed to hear the hon. Minister say that Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) is not broke. KCM owes Zambian suppliers over US$2 billion accumulated over the past two years, which it has failed to pay. What does she call that?

Sir, it is clear that the Government has failed to save jobs at KCM, looking at the way that it is flip-flopping when giving answers. In her explanation, the hon. Minister clearly stated that the mode of operation that KCM wants to go into has been tried at Dangote and we all know the problems that are there. Every reasonable Government tries to emulate best practices and not bad practises. Therefore, why is the Government even allowing negotiation when it knows that the mode KCM wants to use has failed elsewhere and will cause more misery for the employees at KCM? Is it not the job of the Government to protect workers? If it is, what is being done to protect the jobs at KCM?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament has records to show that KCM is broke, I am very ready to receive the financials. I do not discuss issues based on hear say. I discuss facts and not what people think. That KCM is not broke are the facts before my office.

Mr Speaker, as regards outsourcing, if the Member of Parliament is saying that as the Minister of Labour and Social Security, I should tell the unions to stop meeting so that I take over on behalf of the Government, the law does not allow me to do that. If I do that, the employer will drag me to court for interfering in their negotiations. The Government has been dragged to court before. The unions which are negotiating have not come to us to say that they have failed.

Sir, as I said earlier, the Labour Commissioner has been trotting, at the invitation of the union and management, to guide where they are not clear. I trust the Mine Workers Union of Zambia and the other two unions. So, why are we trying to usurp power from the people who are in charge of workers? Why should the Government move in? The same people who are talking here will be the ones who will turn round and start saying that we are interfering in the collective bargaining process. We, as a Government, are doing what is correct.

Mr Speaker, if people are so anxious such that they would want to get involved in issues which do not involve them, then, the law should be changed. That way, they will be able to dictate to the Minister of Labour and Social Security to rush to wherever there is a problem. We are the ones who enacted the law in this House. So, I am surprised that people want me to abrogate the law. The hon. Members of Parliament must be the custodians of the law and they must protect it. If they think the law is weak, definitely, it will need to be changed. What I do not agree with is for hon. Members to start telling me to interfere against the Laws of Zambia. I believe in the Laws of Zambia and I will do what is right.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the

Chair]

Votes 18/05, 18/06, 18/07, 18/08 and 18/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/11 – (Judiciary-Subordinate Courts – Copperbelt – K16,288,220).

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4015, Activity 001 – Court Circuiting – K559,550. In 2017, we had K50,000. What has necessitated this huge increment on this activity?

The Minister of Transport and Communications (Mr Mushimba) (on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to meet the cost of allowances, fuel, stationary, accommodation and other services for magistrates for support staff travelling for court circuiting. The variation is due to the increase in the number of goods and services.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 18/11 and 18/12, 18/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/14 – (Judiciary – Subordinate Courts – Central Province – K5,664,230).

Mr Jere: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4085 – Staff Management, Activity 001 House Rentals for Adjudicators – K1,477,330. There is a reduction in the allocation from K1,507,333 in 2017. I want to find out whether the Government anticipates a reduction in terms of rentals or it has built houses for the officers in the Judiciary.

Mr Mushimba: Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon. Member to repeat the heading and the activity.

The Deputy Chairperson: The Programme is 4085 – Staff Management, Activity 001 − House Rentals for Adjudicators – K1,477,330.

Mr Mushimba: Mr Chairperson, the provision under Programme 4085 – Staff Management, Activity 001, House Rentals for Adjudicators – K1,477,330, is required to pay for office and house rentals for adjudicators. The decrease is due to a reduction in the number of offices being rented.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4015, Activity 001 − Court Circuiting – K595,050. In 2017, the allocation was K1140,500 and there has been a leap to K595,050. Could the hon. Minister let me know why there has been this huge increase?

Mr Mushimba: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to meet the cost of allowances for fuel, stationery and accommodation and other services for Magistrates and support staff travelling for Court Circuiting. The variation is due to the increase in the number of circuits that will be conducted in the coming year.

I thank you, Sir.

Votes 18/14, 18/15 and 18/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/17 – (Judiciary – Subordinate Courts – Northern Province – K4,811,310).

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4015 – Court Operations…

Mr Chairperson: Tell us on which page you are.

Mr Michelo: On page 34. May I have clarification on Programme 4015, Activity 001 – Court Circuiting – K639,550. There has been an increase from K235,000 in 2017 to K639,550 in 2018. Could the hon. Minister explain drastic increment.

Mr Mushimba: Mr Chairperson, the leap that the hon. Member has asked about is meant to meet the cost of allowances, fuel, stationery, accommodation and other services for Magistrates and their support staff, as they travel for Court Circuiting. We envision having more Court Circuits in the 2018 Sitting and that is why we have seen that jump in the budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/18 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – Northern Province – K19,182,390).

Mr Jere: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 010 – Maintenance of Motor Vehicles – K6,432. The hon. Minister will agree with me that the cost of lubricants and oil filters is rising by the day. Therefore, is the K6,432 allocated enough to maintain a vehicle for a year?

Mr Mushimba: Mr Chairperson, we budgeted the same amount based on the situation that has prevailed this year. We felt the need to maintain that amount because the budget has been sufficient.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Votes 18/18 and 18/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/20 – Judiciary − Subordinate Courts – Southern Province – K12,884,420).

Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 02, Programme 4015 – Court Circuiting – Activity 001 – Court Circuiting – K830,550. In 2017, the provision was K376,000. Therefore, why has there been an increase to K830,550 this year?

Mr Mushimba: Mr Chairperson, the amount is intended for allowances, fuel, stationary, accommodation and other services needed by the Magistrates and their staff. The increase is due to the increased number of circuits that will be held in 2018.

Thank you, Sir.

Votes 18/20, 18/21,18/22, 18/23, 18/24, 18/25, 18/26, 18/27, 18/28, 18/29 and 18/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/31 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – Western Province – K26,704,200).

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K10,216,364. Why is the figure static?

Mr Mushimba: Mr Chairperson, the provision is enough and that is why it is the same as last years’.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, it is anticipated that the cost of things will go up next year, yet the hon. Minister is saying that figure is sufficient. Will we not create problems?

Mr Mushimba: Mr Chairperson, that is a good question and let me not dismiss it quickly. Yes, inflation has gone up and the cost of things might increase. However, the Government introduced programmes to ensure that it uses the money more prudently than before. That said, the basket will be safeguarded by being creative and meeting obligations without bursting the Budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Votes 18/31,18/32, 18/33, 18/34, 18/35, 18/36, 18/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 44 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – K42,693,700).

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mrs Simukoko): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver my policy statement in support of the 2018 Budget for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Sir, I will highlight the overall policy framework for the ministry within which our key programmes and activities are derived from. I will also review our performance in 2017 and provide the policy focus for 2018.

Mandate of the Ministry

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is charged with the responsibility of formulating and administering employment and labour market policies as well as regulating the employment and labour sector. This is to ensure an efficient and effective labour market and social security system, including maintenance of industrial harmony, high labour productivity and creation of decent jobs. Specifically, the mandate of the ministry is outlined in the Government Gazette Notice No. 183 and 561 of 2012, which spells out the portfolio functions as follows:

Employment Policy;
Factories Act;
industrial and labour relations;
Labour Policy;
monitoring productivity;
occupational assessment services;
social safety net; and
Social Security Policy

Sir, the ministry discharges these functions through six departments, three units and fifty four district offices countrywide. With the new collaboration with district councils, the ministry will have presence in all the districts in the country.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry also provides policy oversight to two statutory bodies, namely the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), under Act No. 40 of 1996, and the Workers Compensation Fund Control Board (WCFCB) under Act No. 10 of 1999.

Performance of the Ministry in 2017

Mr Chairperson, my ministry recorded considerable progress on some of the priorities that it set for itself despite facing a few challenges during the 2017 Financial Year. Our achievements during the year under review are summarised as follows:

the ministry embarked on a comprehensive labour law reform process by revising the Industrial and Labour Relations Act Cap. 269 and the Employment Act Cap. 268 of the Laws of Zambia. This is in our quest to enhance the fundamental principles and rights at work. The Bills informing this review process have been drafted and I will soon present them to this august House during this session;
the ministry made strides in reforming the social protection system in Zambia, which resulted into the formulation of the National Social Protection Bill. The Bill, once enacted, will provide a unique and comprehensive framework under which contributory and non-contributory social protection programmes on all aspects of pension, occupational injury and disease, maternity protection and social assistance will be managed in a sustainable and inclusive manner;
the ministry continues to be pro-active in undertaking extensive labour and occupational safety and health inspections. This is in order to advance the Decent Work Agenda for Zambia while safeguarding the fundamental rights of workers, as required by the labour laws; and
the ministry, in collaboration with the Central Statistical Office (CSO), successfully conducted the 2017 quarterly Labour Force Survey. The shift to conducting the survey every quarter was necessitated by the need for high frequency and credible statistics on the key indicators of the labour market, which is vital to shaping the employment and labour related policies in Zambia; and
with support from the European Union (EU), the ministry made strides in developing the labour market information system. The sector performance framework and the five-year strategic plan for the system have already been developed. Currently, the data catalogue is being finalised.

Mr Chairperson, notwithstanding the successes we registered in the reporting period, the ministry faced some challenges that negatively affected its ability to effectively deliver on its mandate. These challenges included irregular and untimely budget releases, low staffing levels and the lack of adequate transport. The ministry has since started engaging responsible Government institutions to address the stated challenges.

Policy Focus for 2018

Mr Chairperson, the budgetary allocation to my ministry has been increased from K41.75 million in 2017 to K42.69 million in 2018. This translates into a minimal percentage increase of 2.2 per cent. My ministry is cognisant of the fact that the Government is in a hurry to deliver development to its people as guided by the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP), Vision 2030 and the Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto. Our efforts will, therefore, be directed towards contributing to the achievement of the vision, aspirations and the plans of the Government. With the given resources, my ministry intends to prioritise the following programmes:

Policy Development

Mr Chairperson, 2018 is a crucial year, as we are expected to contribute to the successful implementation of the 7NDP. My ministry will lay a strong foundation and ensure the implementation of policies whose impact on job creation, economic growth and development is assured. We are working, in earnest, to finalise and begin implementing the National Development and Labour Market Policy, the Occupational Safety and Health Policy and the National Productivity Policy. The specific strategies and measures of these policy frameworks will contribute to economic growth and development;

Labour Reforms

Mr Chairperson, through the on-going, social protection reform process, the ministry will ensure that appropriate legal and institutional frameworks are put in place to support the harmonisation of social security schemes for workers in Zambia. As highlighted in the 7NDP, under the Pillar on Poverty and Vulnerability Reduction, our focus for 2018 will be on implementing pension reforms whose objectives is to enhance the efficiency, reliability and sustainability in the management of pension systems and benefits in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will also undertake to finalise the remaining aspects of the labour law reforms. This will include reviewing the minimum wages and conditions of employment across various sectors of the economy. We will institute the Labour Advisory Committee, which will advise the Government on the minimum wage and conditions of employment in Zambia. We have a collective responsibility, as a Government, to ensure that workers, including those operating in the informal economy, are paid fair and decent wages to enhance their welfare; and

Productivity Promotion

Mr Chairperson, productivity improvement is key to the attainment of the Vision 2030 of becoming a prosperous middle-income country. Furthermore, for us to diversify our economy and create more jobs, productivity promotion and improvement is key.

Sir, I am pleased to inform the House that the Government attaches great importance to productivity improvement. Under the 2018 Budget, the ministry has been allocated K511,350, which will be channelled towards the establishment of the National Productivity Centre. The centre will act as a catalyst for transforming the economy through continuous improvement and promotion of positive work culture. The ministry will also continue implementing workplace as well as enterprise based continuous improvement systems aimed at improving productivity both in the public and private sectors.

(d) Hosting of the National Employment Forum

Mr Chairperson, the ministry, in collaboration with the International Labour Organisation (ILO), intends to host the National Employment Forum in 2018. The National Employment Forum, also referred to as the Presidential Job Submit, is expected to be held annually. The forum will provide a platform for experts and policy-makers to interface and discuss issues on employment and job creation.

Mr Chairperson, participants at the forum will be drawn from key Government ministries and institutions, non-governmental organisations (NGOs), workers’ and employers’ organisations, the private sector, United Nations (UN) agencies and the academia. Our hope is to develop strong linkages with institutions responsible for job creation.

(e) Promotion of Social Dialogue

Mr Chairperson, in line with the Decent Work Agenda, the ministry will continue to promote dialogue through the tripartite arrangement to ensure a shared responsibility in finding solutions to challenges in the labour market. This is intended at promoting industrial harmony and contributing to the fostering of national unity in the country. In this regard, the ministry will continue to hold regular tripartite consultative labour council meetings in order to strengthen interactions with social partners.

(f) Enhancing Labour and Occupational Safety and Health Inspectorates

Mr Chairperson, the ministry intends to strengthen mechanisms for labour inspections as well as occupational safety and health inspections. This is in order to ensure increased adherence to labour and employment regulations and maintenance of occupational safety and health standards at work places. In this regard, the ministry has provided for a budget line for support towards regional offices to scale-up inspections.

Further, the ministry has engaged the Ministry of Local Government and the Local Government Service Commission to facilitate the appointment of some officers within the councils to perform duties of the labour officer in line with the provisions of the Employment Act No. 268 of the Laws of Zambia. This will ensure increased coverage to all districts in the country.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, my ministry is very optimistic that we will be able to achieve our set priorities and execute its mandate effectively in 2018. This will, however, require support and participation of our key stakeholders, including the hon. Members of this august House. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to support my ministry’s 2018 Budget, as it strives towards reforming the labour market, which is critical to achieving economic growth and development.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member for Nkeyema will be the first to debate the policy statement. However, before he does, I wish to remind hon. Members that when your point is delivered, you should give a chance to others to debate because we will not manage accommodate all the hon. Members indicating to debate.

You may proceed.

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): I thank you for your guidance, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, I support the budget, as proposed, but with minor modifications in certain areas. The major responsibilities of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, as referred to by the hon. Minister, are employment policy and social security policy.

Sir, I am concerned with the failure by the ministry to exercise its mandate to the fullest. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security, under normal circumstances, is supposed to be the ultimate employer. However, I note, with dismay, that the ministry has allowed the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) of the Cabinet Office and the Civil Service Commission (CSC) to take over its functions. What I expect from the ministry is to guide these two institutions when they go wrong. I have noted that instead of implementing the conditions of service, as given, the ministry has allowed the PSMD and the CSC to dismiss employees on national interest instead of charging them so that disciplinary action is taken. This decision, on the part of the ministry, means that the taxpayer of this country is carrying a burden which he or she is not supposed to carry. I hope that going forward, the ministry will exercise its mandate in this regard.

Mr Chairperson, last year, this House approved K2 million for a Labour Force Market Survey. I did comment, then, that a similar amount was provided in the budget for the Ministry of National Development and Planning. I am concerned the hon. Minister said that the ministry has only managed to conduct a quarter survey with the Central Statistical Office (CSO). These results, if I am not mistaken, have not been disseminated, yet the ministry is asking for another vote of K2 million this year.

Mr Chairperson, this is a concern because firstly, we need to know the make-up of the workforce in this country. We also need to know the levels of employment creation. Even if the Patriotic Front (PF) has been failing to create employment, there is no problem. The point is that we must know what is happening.

Mr Chairperson, forty-three years ago when I was at university, we used to have a publication called the Monthly Digest of Statistics published by the CSO, therein, the employment movements were indicated. As a result, there were no disagreements at the end of the day. In any case, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and, indeed, other ministries need to know what is happening in the labour force.

Mr Chairperson, when these issues are not being done timely, but the ministry keeps coming to this House to ask for more money, it is a source of concern. As a matter of fact, it is the hon. Minister who should embrace the fact that she is more empowered with information to guide her colleagues appropriately.

Mr Chairperson, with respect to the labour law review, the amount of K210,000, is definitely not enough to cover what we have in mind.

Sir, with regards to the minimum wages, I hope that the ministry will stick to what was agreed to in the past, that is, to deal with sectoral instead of the general order. The hon. Minister must move away from the path that her predecessor walked. He tried to implement something without consulting effectively with key stakeholders, such as the Zambia National Farmers Unions (ZNFU) and all others who may employ people. They need to appreciate what this ministry is trying to do.

Sir, the law reforms that the ministry wants to carry out were first talked about in 2012/2013. They have not been brought to this House to-date although the hon. Minister has mentioned the intent to bring them. The most important issue is what we discussed this afternoon, which is outsourcing. The fact is that the industry is a little restless and this means that there is a problem. Therefore, it is in the interest of the ministry to take care and be proactive to ensure that these issues do not overtake it otherwise what it intends to bring here will not happen.

Mr Chairperson, I want to comment on inspections. This particular department is never funded adequately. Even in the 2018 Budget, it has not been funded adequately. If it were funded adequately, it would help to ensure that the laws which we enact are implemented and complied with by investors or employers. At the moment, employers can see that there is no mechanism to enforce compliance by law. They do not have to implement what the ministry suggests and it is also not in a position to make them accountable. For example, if I asked how many labour inspections were carried out in Lusaka this year, I do not think that the answer will be more than five if at all any were carried out because the department is not adequately funded.

Mr Chairperson, these are departments that need slightly more funding so that they can assist ensuring that the laws, which are made in this House, protect the Zambian people, which is not the case at the moment.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE SECOND DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Mbangweta: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was about to conclude.

Sir, in the policy statement by the hon. Minister this afternoon, she said that it is part of her ministry’s responsibility to ensure that decent jobs are created. However, she has also conceded that casualisation is still rampant in the country. It is rampant because the Government has not taken steps to ensure that the rules and regulations that are promulgated are enforced. Therefore, I would like to appeal to her to request for more money for the Labour Inspection Department because that is the only way the ministry will be in a position to ensure that the interests of the populace are protected.

Sir, if the idea is to improve service delivery, we must also increase the allocation to the Productivity Improvement Department. The same applies to the labour law reforms. If the Government intends to review the minimum wages, it might accrue a lot of money and the intentions will not be realised because we may not allocate money in that aspect. I would like to appeal to the ministries of National Development and Planning and Labour and Social Security to take charge of the labour force market survey because I have seen that the hon. Minister of National Development and Planning has even proposed to increase the allocation from K2.5 million to K3.5 million in the 2018 Budget when neither of the two ministries have shown the results for last year. It does not augur well to have money being approved for results which are not seen.

Sir, finally, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to try to prevail upon her colleagues in the Government, because her ministry is the ultimate employer, to ensure that the Government becomes a role model. The Government should not expect the private sector to pay employees on time if it pays its workers late because even if the investors are summoned to its offices, what response does it expect to get from them when it is equally failing to pay the public workers on time? The Government formulates the law and should, therefore, lead by example.

Sir, as I support this Vote, I wish to submit that this is a very important ministry which actually reflects the way we treat our people. If we treat them very well and with respect, even the investors who come to this country will respect us. At the moment, some investors like the Chinese are supposed to comply with the Human Resource Act. However, the people who practice human resource (HR) and are supposed to be licensed every year, including the Government and its staff at the Cabinet Office, are not licensed. So, how do we expect the Chinese or other investors to comply with the law, which the Government has enacted, but does not follow? Let us, please, comply with the laws that we formulate and everything else will be okay.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the debate on the Vote of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Sir, needless to mention, the issue of labour is very important. As a factor of production, labour is at the centre stage of creating wealth for this country. It is, therefore, unacceptable to make labour a cost-serving centre. Therefore, it is important that we understand it from that perspective.

Mr Chairperson, I would want to adopt the debate by the previous speaker as my own because many things have been said that I had also tabulated to speak about, ranging from inspections, which are very serious issues. Nevertheless, I need to add a certain angle from the previous year’s debate in the sense that we had asked the ministry to go a step further to make use of hon. Members of Parliament. We know that the workforce in the ministry is inadequate. I want to believe that many hon. Members can also help if only they can be recognised in the proper perspective by the same ministry. This will help out because there are so many injustices which take place in our constituencies.

Sir, sometimes, you will be surprised that because the people at the lower level know that there are bad things happening in certain places, they may even try to prevent hon. Members of Parliament from inspecting the places because of the things that happen within. So, it would help if the ministry could closely work with hon. Members of Parliament, as we struggle to reach that point.

Mr Chairperson, where I come from, we say that bad relish helps you finish the nshima.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Livune: Yes, Icishu ciibi cimyanya nsima. Mbo twamba kuli ndiswe, ba Chairman.

Laughter

Mr Livune: Sir, the Patriotic Front (PF) is bad relish, …

Laughter

Mr Livune: … but we can finish our nshima as we try to reach the point when we will have sufficient labour inspectors.

Mr Chairperson, I said that I want to add this dimension to what the previous speaker had spoken about.

Sir, as it has been elaborated earlier on the minimum wage, it is important for us to encourage the hon. Minister to expedite that thought of coming up with sectoral minimum wages. Frankly speaking, it does not make sense to have a uniform minimum wage because activities differ from one sector to another.

For example, miners cannot be compared to those working as domestic servants, on farms or in various other sectors. So, it is important that this programme is hastened to ensure that minimum wages for different sectors speak to what is obtaining in a particular sector. I think we are all agreeable that this must be done to ensure that we change the status quo.

Sir, currently, the women who sell salaula in markets have found a way of employing as well. Due to the hunger situation prevailing, the women buy bales of salaula and employ one or two fellow women to sell that merchandise on their behalf. At the end of the day, the women are able to find a ka K10 or K20 to buy relish or ka pamela for the day. So, I think equating the minimum wage for such a sector to that in the productive sectors of the economy, as is the current situation, would be unfortunate. We, therefore, want to encourage the hon. Minister to move very fast in addressing this situation.

Mr Chairperson, that said, I want to quickly get to my lamentations. The total budget allocation to this ministry falls far short of what is required. How I wish the hon. Minister had the capacity to push for additional funding for her ministry. Clearly, what has been allocated to this ministry is far less than what was spent on fire tenders. In many perspectives, fire tenders may not be of value as compared to the importance of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: In my view, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is an economic ministry and, therefore, it is required that it is given a lot of money. It is not right to keep it more or less like a social run from which we do not expect any value. This is the ministry that must turn around the economy of this country. It is the ministry that must be responsible for the diversification programme in Zambia. If we want to diversify our economy, we have to look at the labour skills that we have in the country. So, it is important that this ministry is given the due attention that it deserves.

Mr Chairperson, it is unfortunate that some good people are associated with those who do bad. I hear there is somebody who is coming to destroy sin in this world. When this person comes, he will destroy all those who have sin in them. Similarly, when we evaluate policies of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, we can see that they are very bad. Unfortunately, even good people who are forced to administer them will also be pulverised.

Mr Mutale: Question!

Mr Livune: Sir, when the PF was campaigning in 2011, it did so on the basis of not allowing some jobs that can be done by local people not to be taken up by expatriates.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: For instance, how can the Government account for somebody flying all the way from another country to come here to just to be a handler of a shovel? We have so many local people who can handle a shovel. These are the general works that we talk about that must be done by the local people.

Sir, this takes me back to the debate we had earlier on concerning the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) issue. The situation there is that foreigners have taken over the jobs of the local people. Soon rather than later, we will ask a few more questions on this matter. For example, we want to know how many accountants have come to work in the mines as expatriates. Do we not have qualified accountants in this country? How many foreign plumbers have also come to work in the mines? We want to ask these questions so that we are told the exact picture prevailing on the ground. Why should we have foreign plumbers or accountants when our own people with the same skills are on the streets because they have no jobs? Why should those who have come to beg for our natural resources employ foreigners for such jobs which are meant for the local people?

Mr Chairperson, this is a very unfortunate scenario. The jobs meant for Zambians must be given to our people. We have a lot of unemployment in this country. Therefore, common jobs should not be given to foreigners. The young Zambians who voted for the PF are looking for jobs, yet the Government is giving out the jobs to foreigners. If you go on the ground, you will find foreigners doing simple jobs that can be done by Zambians. The situation is terrible. It is the same with road construction. The contractors in the road sector have come with their own people and Zambians have been left on the sidelines.

Mr Chairperson, this situation must be sorted out. Unfortunately, like I said earlier, even good people have to administer the PF Government’s bad policies. They will end up being caught up in the web of this bad PF Government, which must be voted out as soon as possible.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: Question!

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, the miners that are affected by the KCM impasse must be told that when president Hakainde Hichilema takes over, we shall cancel all the nonsense that is happening now.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, how do you account …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The word ‘nonsense’ is unparliamentary.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw that word, and I replace with ‘what is happening right now’. The simple jobs in the mines must not be taken away from Zambians and given to foreigners.

Mr Chairperson, most of the people serving in the PF Government have been accused of having received money from investors. So, that is why the people are suffering on the Copperbelt.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: We want them to come out clear on these allegations so that things are put into perspective.

Sir, on the last educational tour we undertook, as hon. Members, we were a mixed grill. It is important that this matter is assigned to the correct Committee of the Hon. Mr Speaker. That will enable your Committee to conduct proper interrogations and investigate the matter so that the truth is brought out on how people are suffering on the Copperbelt.

Mr Chairperson, when you hear hon. Ministers or State House speak on this matter, you would think things are alright on the other side. However, we do not have the correct information. If your Committee can be given even three or four days to bring out the correct picture on what is happening there, your office would appreciate that people on the Copperbelt are under stress. We cannot wait until that moment comes. Therefore, we will call on your office to facilitate a tour in that regard.

Mr Chairperson, time is not on my side. However, I will hasten to inform this august House that public workers in this country are still mourning. Everyone holds the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security in high esteem, but this Government is letting her down. Civil servants are still mourning the meagre salary increment that the Government recently gave them. How can you give workers peanuts of 7 to 9 per cent as salary increment when the people in this country are suffering? The prices of many basic commodities have increased, yet Government workers are given peanuts. The PF wants these people to vote for it after abusing and using them in the wrong way. The day of reckoning is coming.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: That day is not far from now as very soon, it will come. We want the hon. Minister, who was speaking so well on behalf of workers in the past, to continue speaking for them. Workers are looking up to her to deal with the PF Government. However, we understand that it is difficult, especially that the bad labour policies are administered within her office. I do not know how she will manage them because they are within her ministry. They will make the hon. Minister look bad as well and, then, she can go away with the PF when it is voted out of office.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, the PF must never be given another opportunity to govern this country because it has failed. The cost of living in Zambia is so high. This is a fact and as a result, people have nowhere to go. The conditions of service offered by the Government are also sending a wrong signal. When you give a 2 per cent salary increment, what are you telling the private sector to do?

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will not allow that point of order.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, when the Government, which is the biggest employer in this country, gives a 7 per cent salary increment to civil servants, what is it telling the private sector to do? It is indirectly influencing the private sector to suffocate the labour market, when the cost of living is so high. This is the reason we are saying that when president Hakainde Hichilema and the United Party for National Development (UPND) come into power, we shall correct all the mismanagement of the country by the PF.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I want to quickly mention to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security that the issue of pension reforms must be hastily dealt with. I am sure she is aware of the genesis of the issues surrounding the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) and other institutions involved in the pension programme in this country. She has dealt with these institutions in the past and, therefore, we expect a good product to come out soon rather than later.

Interruptions

Mr Livune: I know there so many people in here from somewhere.

Mr Chairperson, for a long time, the pension reforms have been on the table. I hope they will be done this time around, once and for all. We have been talking about pension reforms from 2011. To date, we have not reached a conclusion. I hope the hon. Minister, who is conversant with what is happening in that sector, will help to ensure that this reform process comes to an end without destroying the good institutions involved in this matter, but increase their capacity so that the people can appreciate them.

Sir, lastly, the hon. Minister is expected to speak for the workers who have not been paid for a long time now. I am aware that she had been speaking for them in her previous life. I expect her to continue doing that now that she is in this bad Government, which must help her to resolve those problems because she knows and feels the pain of those workers. However, this Government is making it difficult for her to operate. This Government, which is bad, must know that it is bad and it must change.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. C. Mumba (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, thank you. I would like to start by thanking the hon. Minister for her elaborate policy statement.

Sir, I would have liked to see the figures allocated for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security swell. The reason is simple. We cannot talk of growing the economy in the absence of growing numbers of employment. Every government, world over, focuses on unemployment as one of the key indications to check whether the economy is truly growing. An firmly growing economy grows from the grassroots upwards.

Mr Chairperson, in 2016, the Budget had proposed the creation of 100,000 jobs. In the 2018 Budget, I stand to be corrected, I have not seen any number of jobs to be created. I will not focus so much on the figures that are in the Budget. Like I said earlier, I would have liked to see more money given to the hon. Minister so that she is able to carry out all these reviews and observations that are being made.

Sir, I will focus on the ministry’s need to realise that the private sector, on whose behalf we come here to debate so that jobs can be created, is paying the right sums of money to its people. It is giving the correct conditions of service, starting from small businesses that have even been registered today. At the moment, I see a serious delink between small medium enterprises (SMEs) and the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. I think the Ministry of Labour and Social Security has focused more on traditional institutions such as Government and existing companies as opposed to SMEs, which are being created through these very important reforms that we implement in Parliament and the investments that the Government is making.

Mr Chairperson, if you look at the infrastructure development happening in our country, which is the main anchor of the Patriotic Front (PF) at the moment, you will see that thousands of jobs are being created there. However, the question is: How many of those jobs will actually better the lives of people? If the people in the construction industry were paid well, and were able to pay their fair share of taxes, we, the people who are earning a little more, would also have our taxes reduced. So, it is important for the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to realise that the ministry she is heading plays a major role in ensuring that our economy posts positive growth that we have been talking about.

Sir, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to bring laws that will improve labour relations. We have just come from a debate over Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). I am sure we have learnt enough from the mining sector. We have seen the misery that has come out of the transactions that take place in outsourcing, as people eventually lose jobs. Investors coming into our country tend to even have a better understanding of our laws than we do ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, again, if you went back to the infrastructure sector I talked about and checked the amount of money people are being paid there, you would find that they are contributing very little to the tax base of our country because of all the new ways of financing, such as contract financing. We seem not to pay a lot of attention to some of the monies that people in this sector are being paid. So, it is the same few people in the economy who are spending money. Luckily, because we have a small population, we do not have a shock in the economy as a result of this situation.

Sir, I would like the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to move away from focusing on traditional institutions and focus more on the private sector, particularly SMEs that we are building to ensure that our economy continues to remain strong and resolute because these are the institutions that are actually paying taxes which are necessary for our economy to continue to grow.

With those few words, I support the budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chali (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to allow the people of Nchanga to add a word on the budget for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

First and foremost, Sir, I concur with the previous speakers that the money allocated to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is too little. It is not something we can even talk about, considering what is going on in the industry at the moment.

Sir, I will dwell a bit on the employment policy. For years, as we are all aware, trying to get a meaningful salary increment has been like trying to extract water from a stone. Negotiations are always bad and difficult to conclude. However, at the end of the day, people should end up with something.

Sir, let me talk about some of the jobs that are being done by some of the so-called expatriates. I will cite an example of Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). I heard from the previous speakers that some people from there lost employment. Out of desperation, most of them have ended up taking jobs with a lower salary than they were getting before they were retrenched. It surprises me to see over 200 foreigners of Indian origin working as artisans under a company called African Mechanical and Super lift Limited. It leaves questions on whether our inspectors are even conducting their inspections, as they are supposed to. I know that some inspections can be done on appointment, but others can be surprise audits. The company should just find that labour inspectors have come to audit the company on a particular day without announcement. We have a lot to do on that one. That is why I am saying that the money allocated to the hon. Minister is not enough to talk about. I have looked at the budget. Only K600,000 has been allocated to inspections for the whole year and I do not know how many inspections can be done with that meagre amount.

Sir, the other thing I would like to point out is what we were just discussing − outsourcing. We should differentiate outsourcing an operation and outsourcing of labour. We know some companies that have outsourced quietly and the reason being that from the time they did their business plan, they knew that they would outsource the labour they would require. However, when you want to outsource labour of a company that is already in operation, you end up with the situation we have currently.

Mr Chairperson, the labour Mopani Mines is using for mining operations is all private and it is not an issue because from inception, when it decided to go into mining, it planned to outsource labour. However, here is a situation whereby a company comes in as an investor, but goes through a Zambian company to employ labour. This means that it is coming in not as contractors, because the company that comes in between takes up the role of contractors, but as a labour agent without a licence.

Mr Chairperson, some of the problems we are faced with have already been seen at a company called Dangote. For example, when Dangote came in as an investor, it knew that it would find labour here. So, it contracted Zambian companies, which it is paying adequately. However, when it comes to it paying our employees, it is just paying them, maybe, 50 per cent of what they are supposed to get. This has resulted in increased casualisation. That is why I am saying that there is nothing to talk about regarding the money which has been allocated to this ministry.

Sir, on the issue of personal emoluments, I have failed to understand why there is a reduction. We have been saying that we are creating more jobs and have talked about increased casualisation and I know that there are a lot of problems that are arising from the industry, but looking at the personal emoluments, I fail to understand why there has been a reduction from K8 million to K6.6 million. I do not know how the 7 per cent or 9 per cent, which has been to the civil servants as salary increment has been catered for. As we come to individual items, we will get some comments over this issue.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to wind up by talking about casualisation that I have just mentioned. We are saying casualisation has been phased out, yet it is on the increase. At the rate at which we are going, if we do not arrest it now, we will fail to control it.

Sir, I know that the Ministry of Labour and Social Security sits on the committee when giving out work permits and it plays a major role. It is not the lone duty of the Ministry of Home Affairs to give recommendations because they also come from the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

So, Sir, this issue of allowing foreigners to work as artisans should be stumped out or reduced to nothing. Like the previous speaker said, we have many Zambian artisans who are just loitering on the streets when we are supposed to create employment for them.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, bring out your points quickly so that you give chance to others to debate.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to support the budget for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Sir, we can all agree that labour is one of the factors of production. All students of economics, in their introduction to the subject, learn that for an economy to grow, it needs capital, land and labour. The interaction of these factors of production is what develops an economy. It is against this background that labour matters not only affect individual families, but also greatly affect the economic status of a country.

Mr Chairperson, a country that is labour-insecure is likely to be poor. Examples are many. I know many speakers have talked about outsourcing, particularly by Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). However, if we look at our social sector, most pension funds, in many countries, particularly developed countries, come from secure labour.

Mr Chairperson, I have equally looked at what has been allocated towards labour inspection and it is only K600,000. Is this money enough for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security officials, particularly labour inspectors, to go to Mkushi to check whether our brothers and sisters working on the farms are exposed to decent working conditions? Will this amount be enough for labour inspectors to travel to Chifunda Chikwa in Chama South to check whether safari hunters in those areas are adhering to our labour conditions? I am sure as we go into the details of our Activity-Based Budget, those questions will be answered.

Mr Chairperson, the ability of pension funds to build our infrastructure is dependent on strong labour relations. Are we creating decent jobs for our citizens?

Hon. Opposition Member: No!

Mr Mung’andu: It is through these decent jobs that the health of our citizens will be taken care of.

Mr Chairperson, outsourcing globally has been identified as a means of enslaving or oppressing the poor. Let us check the international trend arguments for and against outsourcing. Usually, these are mechanisms imperialists are devising to continue suppressing us, the poor. The question I am, therefore, asking is: Are we not exposed enough? How many of our people, through outsourcing, will be able to save enough money in our financial institutions?

Sir, the hon. Minister of Finance will agree with me that the growth of the private sector is dependent on the savings that the people are putting in the banks. If our living wage is equal to our monthly expenses, we will have a net Gross Domestic Product (GDP) for our country. Is that good for our economy? The answer is no.

Mr Chairperson, I have looked at the Yellow Book. There is enough money appropriated for meetings. If you look at meetings and planning, usually there is a higher figure allocated to them. There is one activity which is showing K160,000 on inspections. This means that the people of Chama South expect quality policies related to securing the future of our people to come out of those meetings.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Chama South are looking forward to policies which will ensure that quality jobs are created, jobs that will come with health insurance schemes. Companies should be able to send employees to better hospitals when they are sick. However, with the introduction of outsourcing, I doubt if we will achieve this. Outsourcing is one of the ways that multinationals have devised to cut costs.

Mr Chairperson, labour is a variable cost for multinational companies while other costs are treated as fixed costs. They will not avoid paying for electricity or finding capital for machine repair, but they have identified labour as a way to save money. If we are not careful and do not handle this important factor of production properly, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government will be in serious problems. It is the interaction of labour, capital and entrepreneurship which builds the economy.

Mr Chairperson, finally, in terms of labour inspection, let us check what is going on in semi-skilled sectors like block making. How much are our people, who work for these Lebanese companies, being paid? How do we ensure that we create respectable jobs, as a country? I believe we can do this through many ways which include the reviewing of labour laws. We need to protect ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I support the appropriation for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will only allow two more hon. Members to debate, Hon. Musokotwane and Hon. Chonya, before I move on to the Executive.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, I will try to cut short my debate so that, maybe, you may reconsider your position on how many more people you will allow to debate.

Mr Chairperson, to start with, I want to adopt Hon. Livune’s debate as my own. He has raised very powerful points and I think workers out there have seen that in him, they have a committed labour leader who will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them from today onwards.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is charged with the following responsibilities:

creation of policies that encourage the creation of new jobs across all sectors of the economy;
creation of policies that preserve the existing jobs; and
creation of policies that positively support the welfare of Zambian workers and social safety networks.

Mr Chairperson, sometimes, I wonder if the Ministry of Labour and Social Welfare is fully aware of the important responsibility that it is charged with. In fact, I believe that the future of this country depends on what happens in the ministry because the future of this country is about the 400,000 young people who come onto the labour market every year. If these young people are not absorbed by the labour market, soon rather than later, we will have something similar to the Arab Spring. The frustration, anger and loss of confidence that is brewing in these young people is something that will hit this country very badly unless the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security devises policies that will create the jobs that these young people are looking for.

Mr Chairperson, it is no secret that part of the reason people, especially the young ones, were attracted to the Patriotic Front (PF) in 2011 was the promise that it made about employment creation. Unfortunately, six years later, we find that these young people have been disappointed. The enthusiasm and hope that they had in the future has been destroyed because instead of creating jobs, the PF has been destroying jobs. Instead of putting more money in people’s pockets, the PF has been reducing money in people’s pockets.

Mr Mutale: Question!

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Instead of giving hope to young people, the PF is killing the hope of young people. This is very sad and people feel let down.

Mr Chairperson, for the rest of the few minutes that I have, I will focus on the issue of ...

Mr Mutale: Bicycles!

Dr Musokotwane: Not on bicycles, but on ambulances and fire trucks that look like wheelbarrows.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I want to focus on social safety nets for workers. I am worried because the people who served under the Zambia National Provident Fund (ZNPF) and retired suffered because the retirement benefits that were paid to them were very little and were eaten into by inflation. I see a similar situation threatening the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). The future of NAPSA is being threatened by this Government because it is managing it as if it is a department of the Government. What I mean is that NAPSA, in my view, is being forced to get into economic enterprises for which I doubt the owners, being the workers, believe they should invest in.

Mr Chairperson, I have a few examples. The other day, we were being told that NAPSA would be an owner of a bank that is now bankrupt. Bank of Zambia closed Intermarket Banking Corporation because it was bankrupt and I believe that NAPSA had deposits in that bank. Instead of the Government working with the bank to return those deposits to NAPSA, NAPSA has been forced to convert those deposits into capital. Is that a viable bank? It, obviously, raises questions because this capital that is being pumped into the new bank is not fresh money. It is just conversion of the liabilities into equity. There is no fresh cash that has gone into the bank from NAPSA. So, what I see is a possibility that the changing of this deposit into the new bank will mean that money, in all probability, will never be recovered. This is a threat to NAPSA.

Mr Chairperson, we have been told that NAPSA is engaged in a public-private partnership (PPP) arrangement on the construction of the Chingola/Solwezi Road. This will cost a lot of money. I doubt if NAPSA freely got into that arrangement. I suspect it was just forced to divert the workers’ money into that adventurous economic scheme. This is very worrying. If we are not careful, this will lead to a situation where five to fifteen years from now, our children will be told that there is no money when they retire and go to NAPSA to claim their money.

I get very surprised because in the Yellow Book, there is an allocation to PPP – Road Financing from Chingola to Solwezi. This is the first time I have seen a provision of funds from a non-Government entity appearing in the Yellow Book. The money that should appear in the Yellow Book is supposed to be from revenues. Are we saying that the money that is coming from NAPSA to undertake this project is Government revenue? If it is a private investment, then, it should not appear in the Yellow Book. I am a very worried person. If the Government will continue spending money all the time, I can assure you, Mr Chairperson, that the viability of NAPSA will be at high risk. In the next ten to fifteen years, we will not be surprised if retirees will be told that there is no money when they go to claim their money. These people will actually be told to wait for ten to fifteen years for their money.

Mr Chairperson, my final point is that the hon. Minister should protect the interests of the people who she has been protecting for years. It will be very sad, under her custody, if those who are retiring will not be paid because we know that Hon. Simukoko, a known labour leader, is the one presiding over the affairs of the workers.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to just add a few words to this very important debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Chonya, please, try to save time so that we can accommodate one more debater before we move on to the Executive.

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, I will try to save time. Firstly, I want to indicate that I support the budget line for this ministry whole heartedly and I hope the hon. Minister responsible is listening. I know that if she will be given the money that she has requested for, she will be able to make that outstanding trip to Kafue, to address a lot of labour related issues. I have been on her neck trying to get her to Kafue to sort out some pressing issues but unfortunately, she has been telling me that she does not have transport money to get there.

Interruptions

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, I was sympathetic and I offered her transport except she declined the offer.

Mr Chairperson, in Kafue, as you are aware, we have the famous Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) and the Kafue Textiles of Zambia (KTZ), which is an industry that used to produce very good Chitenge materials. This company was bought by a dubious investor. We would say this investor just came to steal from the people because immediately they bought that company, people who toiled for so many years were not given any kind of compensation for their labour. Some of the workers who were lucky were just given a few months pay against the several months that they had worked for.

Sir, this is why I would want the hon. Minister to be given the funds so that she sees how the former workers of KTZ can be assisted to get their packages, which they are crying for every day and night. If the Patriotic Front (PF) Government will be able to deal with this matter for the people of Kafue, maybe, it can win the hearts of the people of Kafue. If it fails to do this, I can assure its members that come 2021, …

Ms Kapata interjected.

Mrs Chonya: … the people of Kafue will still look for a savior in the name of the United Party for National Development (UPND), under the leadership of our president, Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, the Government today, I am afraid, is becoming one of the biggest violators of workers’ rights. Very soon, this Government will have no moral standing to defend workers’ rights because it is in the forefront of violating those rights. Today, we are hearing people talk about creating a national productivity centre. Why should we go to that extent when all that the workers need is motivation so that naturally, productivity can come in? How does the Government expect people to be productive? For example, how will the teachers, whom this Government has been transferring from one corner to another, be productive when they are being demoralised?

Interruptions

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, I went round my constituency this weekend and I was sad to find hard working farmers having their maize marooned in their houses. Some of them have simply refused to accept the prices of K40 per 50 kg bag of maize. They would rather let their maize rot in their houses. That is hard labour that they put in producing that maize. Why is the Government not considering finding a fair marketing system with good pricing for their hard labour? How do we say we are looking for productivity when people who are hard working are being disappointed by the Government?

Sir, this morning, before I came to Parliament, I was talking to our hard working drivers in Kafue who wake up at 0400 hours to transport people to Lusaka for work and, in turn, contribute to national productivity. However, they are also being demoralised by the number of road blocks that this Government has allowed to be mounted between Lusaka and Kafue. I have raised this issue before that for a stretch of 45 km, we have allowed six roadblocks and three speed traps to be mounted. That is the labour of our drivers which is being disturbed. We should begin to value the work of the drivers because those are their offices just like the way we are sitting in this Chamber doing our work. Why are we allowing the drivers to be disturbed every now and then, when they are supposed to be generating income? Some of them are supporting the same families which are leaving in dire distress as a result of not having been paid their money by KTZ. These are the issues that we need to look into before we talk about coming up with productivity centres.

Mr Chairperson, we need to motivate Public Service workers. Somebody here talked about the delayed negotiations and eventually, the small pay rise that the people got after waiting for a long time. How can people be productive when they are not getting the packages that they deserve?

Mr Chairperson, I promised to be brief, but before I conclude, let me not lose this opportunity to state how disappointed I was by an article which is circulating on social media. It was done by one of the key advisers of the Patriotic Front (PF), who is carrying out an analysis of the positions in NAPSA that my colleague was talking about. In this article, the author is advising his party about being careful because there are many different tribes in the party other than those that are supposed to be there. What kind of thinking is this? I am praying that it is not a reflection of the thinking of the senior people in the PF. I hope they will not buy that kind of advice because we cannot reduce ourselves to a country which will talk about tribe when it comes to matters of employment. How can we have productivity like that if we will employ on the basis of tribe and political affiliation? We are supposed to employ people on merit. We need to get back to the drawing board. Otherwise, as a country, we are driving ourselves into a very deep pit.

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, it is no wonder that these foreigners are making our people cry. Very soon, we shall all be reduced to beggars. We will glorify foreigners instead of reclaiming our past glory, as we sing in our National Anthem. How are we failing to rise above our own problems, as a country, so that we can rise and shine instead of begging each time until we go into destitution? So, let us improve the conditions of service of our workers.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya: Sir, when we improve the conditions of service of our workers, it will bring in productivity. Otherwise, we will seat here and talk about this and that strategy which will not work until we address pressing issues with regards to our workers.

Mr Chairperson, since the hon. Minister has not mentioned any job creation strategy in the policy statement, I hope that one of these days, she will come with a ministerial statement to tell us how the Government is doing, so far, on the job creation strategy. I am aware that a strategy was being worked on. These are the things the hon. Minister is supposed to update us on because we are concerned about unemployment.

Sir, everybody here has talked about the high levels of unemployment in the country, which this Government seems to be failing to address. Instead, it is talking about all these, like my colleague would say, grandeurs plans that do not translate into putting food on the tables of many hungry Zambians, who go to sleep without food. In the end, we become the third hungriest country in the world.

Mr Muchima: Hammer, hammer!

Mrs Chonya: Mr Chairperson, let us respect labour whether it be formal or informal. That is the point I am making.

Mr Chairperson, I hope the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security has also taken note of the cry of the bus drivers in Kafue that I have made today. The drivers are asking what the Government wants them to do. According to them, they are trying to sustain themselves, but the Government is busy disturbing them. Why do we not want to respect the drivers? When we talk about easing the cost of doing business in Zambia at higher level of multinational investors, we are supposed to bring the ease of doing business down to some of the blue collared jobs as well. We should not only ease the cost of doing business for all other companies and investors that we think are bringing in money.

Sir, the informal sector in Zambia also contributes significantly to our economy and we should respect its contribution. After all, for now, these are the only jobs available since the Government has failed to create decent jobs. So, let us respect what other people are doing. The small contributions that different players in our economy are trying to make should not be frustrated due to failure by the Government of putting in right policies and measures so that people can freely do their work and be able to look after their families.

Mr Chairperson, I will end there. I hope I have saved some time.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Chitotela): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the Vote that deals with labour in Zambia.

Sir, it surprises me when I listen to a lot of misinformation being shared in this House. I know that people are using Parliament as a platform to advance their political agenda.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, I am a Minister who has worked in the Ministry of Labour and Social Security before. I would like to state clearly that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government cares about the welfare of workers in Zambia.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Chitotela: I will demonstrate.

Mr Chairperson, in 2011, when the PF was elected to form Government, it became the first Government in Zambia to prescribe conditions for neglected workers.

Dr Malama: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Some of the hon. Members, who are debating here, incited some organisations and unions to take the PF Government to court to challenge that which it prescribed for the workers, the people who were considered to be marginalised and down trodden. People in here rose saying the Government would kill the industries and factories. The Government was accused of not knowing what it was doing. However, as a Government, we said that we would rather give that which the local, indigenous Zambians, deserve. These are people who are not represented by trade unions. The law provides for the hon. Minister to prescribe what is due to them. That is a serious commitment that the PF Government demonstrated to show that it cares for the workers in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I take strong exception to the statement by the Member for Parliament for Katombola, Hon. Livune, that we are a bad Government ...

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: ... when the Zambian people are there to demonstrate and testify that the PF Government cares for the interest of the workers.

Hon. Opposition Members laughed.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chitotela: We are a Government that takes care of the interests of the workers, which we have demonstrated.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, some of these people shouting here have workers. If you check the conditions to which they have subjected their workers, you cannot accept it. Some of these people are even running serious political parties, yet when you go to their farms, they are treating Zambian workers like slaves.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, it is said that, “forewarned is forearmed.”

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, if some people cannot respect their domestic workers, will they respect Zambians if you give them the instruments of power?

Hon. PF Members: No!

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, one Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chitotela: … has stated that the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) is investing where it is not expecting returns. I have said that one has to check himself/herself before speaking. Hon. Dr Situmbeko Musokotwane was Minister of Finance. He signed the NAPSA project in Kalulushi that has remained a white elephant.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Today, the PF Government signed an investment contract in the road sector with NAPSA and it is bringing into this sector. I can demonstrate that we have already started paying back the money we got from NAPSA. We pay K16 million per month to NAPSA.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, we are a committed Government which does not want NAPSA to go under. We have the interest of workers at heart. The investment NAPSA is putting into that road has already started paying back. NAPSA has already started benefiting from that investment. Hon. Musokotwane was Minister of Finance and should be able to tell us what has happened to the NAPSA project in Kalulushi.

Mr Mwiimbu: You are the next Minister of Labour.

Interruptions

Mr Chitotela: We need to agree that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Mr Chitotela drunk some water

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Hon. Members, let us be reminded that the hon. Minister is responding to that which was said. If we do not give chance to others to listen to the response, we are not being fair.

So, let us listen.

Mr Mutati: Yes!

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Minister continue.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, I was emphasising the point that when we cry about caring for the workers of Zambia, we must demonstrate this by our deeds. The PF Government is demonstrating how to care for workers. It decided that NAPSA must look at viable investment in which to put its money and benefit from that investment. NAPSA has started investing on the Chingola/Solwezi Road. Before the construction of the road is even completed, we have started paying back. That is why the money is appearing in the Yellow Book because the money that we are using to pay NAPSA is public funds. We need to show the Zambian people that the investment that NAPSA is putting into that road is paid back because we do not want workers to suffer, become beggars and be stranded after they have served their country with dignity. We care about the interest of workers after they serve this nation.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, I want to tell the Zambian people that this Government cares about their interest.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, I think even the hon. Ministry of Labour and Social Security had stated during her response during Questions for Oral answer that we will not accept outsourcing of labour without following the legal process. We are a Government that is elected to enforce the law. We will ensure that whoever wants to outsource labour will follow the provisions of the law.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, nobody will be forced into signing the transfer agreement until the workers themselves understand that which is involved in the contract that they are signing to move from one employer to another. I want to assure the employees at Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), working in the mines, that we are a Government that listens and …

Hon Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Chitotela: …was elected to protect their interests. We will protect the people and ensure that all the provisions of the law are followed. I do not want to waste much time because I want to leave other matters to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to respond to.

I felt compelled, Mr Chairperson, to clarify some of the issues …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chitotela: … that the Government …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended at 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to state that when the PF Government took over the administration of this country, the least paid employees were getting K240 and K400. However, it increased their salaries to K700 and K1,000, respectively because it cares about the welfare of the Zambian people. Furthermore, all the civil servants are entitled to a pension. We do not have a single classified daily employee (CDE) whose burden was left behind by our predecessor. All civil servants, including drivers and office overlies are entitled to pension. This is a clear demonstration that it cares about the citizens’ interests.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, we are not like the capitalists who believe that the weak must not survive and only those with the financial muscle must dominate and be worshipped. We, as the PF Government, believe in sharing of wealth equally among all the citizens of this country. That is why the role of the Government is to …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chitotela: … create an enabling environment.

Mr Chairperson, I am proud to belong to the PF Government, which is connecting the Mongu and Sikongo in the Western Province to Angola. This will enhance trade and enable the private sector to invest in the province so that sustainable employment is created for the people of the Western Province. This is what this caring Government is able to do.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Chairperson, thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to support the Vote of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Mr Chairperson, I will limit my comments to the role that the Ministry of Home Affairs plays in facilitating the transfer of skills and also assisting investors who come with labour to this country. The Member of Parliament for Katombola, Hon. Livune, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: … referred to the fact that foreigners – at least today you were able to debate other than just questioning all the time – take up jobs which the Zambians are able to do. The Ministry of Home Affairs is working closely with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and all other key sectors which bring in foreign labour. We will be firm and, I want to emphasise that we will only allow foreign labour which is not on the market. Therefore, those who wish to transfer skills to the Zambians will be required to follow the law.

Mr Chairperson, the conditional work permit has been abused by some foreign investors and employees. They are given this permit on condition that over a period of time, they transfer their skills to the local citizens and leave thereafter. However, what has been happening is that, for the sake of meeting this obligation, people commit to work for two years after which it is expected that they would have trained an understudy attached them. However, they renew their permits based on reasons some of which amount to insulting our intelligence. For example, an engineer in the mining sector may undertake to train a Zambian within two-and-a-half years, but after which time they come back to say that the person they trained moved to another company or did not acquire the necessary expertise. For this reason, we are now firm. Every day, the Immigration Department rejects some conditional work permit applications and the applicants appeal to my office. However, as I stated, we have been working with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and other sectors such as the mining industry.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Chilombo referred to the artisans who work in the mines. I am sure that he remembers the first meeting we held on the Copperbelt with all the human resource personnel from the mining houses and explained the reason for our need to be firm about issuing out work permits to foreigners. A qualified engineer from the University of Zambia (UNZA) or an understudy cannot fail to grasp the special skills in the mining industry. Therefore, I appeal to all the investors to be sincere and indicate the number of expatriates they intend to bring so that their work permits are processed transparently from the inception.

In this regard, Sir, we have requested the Immigration Department to put this information on its website. We will continue working with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security in this line. However, I want to say to those who want to appeal to my office, through this House, that we will not entertain people wanting to stay on in this country carrying out work that our citizens are able to do. This is what is called Zambianisation.

Mr Chairperson, this also applies to those who practice the Christian faith. We are also working with the Ministry of Religious Affairs and National Guidance to ensure that foreign pastors, who are granted work permits and commit to training Zambians to be pastors as well, should be sincere, as expected of Christians.

Mr Chairperson, so, when you hear that we have deported some people, it is because of their insincerity. There are people who have wanted to be here even when they are not supposed to be. Therefore, I am appealing to them to understand that Zambians now have the ability to do so much. I belong to one of the biggest churches, which used to have whites, ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I was born and baptised in the Catholic Church.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: I can see brothers at the back with whom we could have been priests had we been properly coached. What I am trying to say is that if you recall, you will agree that we used to have whites as parish priests. However, now our parishes have our own Zambians doing the same job that was being done by white priests. So, why should it be a problem to have Zambian pastors, especially that we now have so many churches which we accept?

Mr Chairperson, it is unacceptable to say that if a church has its origin in a given country, then, it should only be presided over by pastors from the said country. I think that, as Zambians, we should be proud and accept that when our brothers and sisters come from other countries, they can share with us their expertise in a given field. Therefore, we should have our own brothers and sisters running those congregations if they decide to affiliate with the churches with foreign origin. I thought I should make these comments.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Chonya mentioned something that is related to my ministry when she talked about check points. I will come to this House to announce the measures that will be put in place after the threatened state of emergency to ensure that our check points do not become an impediment to the movement of our people. I also want to share with her that she should not be one of the leaders who always want to politicise the issue of transfers. Those of us whose parents were civil servants know that they could be transferred anytime from one point to the other. It is surprising that of late, transfers have become an issue to a point where when a person is transferred from one point to another, he or she feels that he or she is being punished. What kind of Civil Service are we going to have if that is the case? When people join the Public Service, they must be ready to serve their people wherever they are assigned to work. We should not treat the issue of transfers as some form of punishment. We have even seen people abusing the Office of the Public Protector where those who have been transferred run to complain. We must encourage Public Service workers to be ready to render their services where ever they are required.

Sir, I thank you.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, I would like to greatly thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. However, I have a few comments on some of the statements that some hon. Members have made.

Sir, I know that Hon. Mbangweta is passionate about human resource because he comes from that background. He said that the Civil Service Commission has taken over the role of the ministry by retiring workers in national interest. We have talked about this so many times, and so, I think that we know why certain people may be retired in national interest. However, what is comforting is that people who are retired in national interest are given their full packages. Apart from that, these people are priority on the list of retirees, and they are paid immediately they leave employment. Therefore, the issue of retiring workers is a Civil Service management tool. As leaders, we must know that the Government goes through a lot of issues and sometimes, they happen to be dangerous. At times, these decisions are made in national interest aimed at protecting you and I. The Government may not go into detail of what necessitates the retirement of people in national interest, but we must know that this is a tool that the Government uses to protect all of us.

Sir, on the Employment and Social Security Policy, we talked about a survey. The survey for the quarter has been published by the Central Statistical Office (CSO). This is done monthly, and so, I would appeal to those who may want to look at the survey results to get this document.

Mr Chairperson, I know that people can talk about minimum wage now. However, we all know what we went through when it was hiked. Many people, including those with a lot of money, cried foul over the upward adjustment of the minimum wage. They were crying over the decision to give the very poor people an increment with the lowest salary being just K550. However, I will come to this House to up the minimum wage. I hope that all of us will support it.

Mr Chairperson, when it comes to law reforms, we have done a lot so far. We have almost completed the process and as I am talking now, all our documents are with the Ministry of Justice. I know that laws should protect workers. However, they should also protect employers because both parties need each other. Without an employer, there would be no employee and vice versa. So, both are important.

Sir, as regards funding of the inspectorate, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security will bring a law that will raise revenue on some of the activities that are undertaken. Although most of the activities were approved by the Government, they have not been implemented. I hope that all of you will support that law when we bring it to this House.

Mr Chairperson, as regards, human resource practitioner’s licensing, whenever we know that a human resource practitioner is not licensed, we move in very quickly. I thank Mr Livune, who is a very good friend of mine and an active labour leader in the past, I do not know about now, for supporting the Vote.

Sir, I have already talked about the minimum wage, and the Ministry of Home Affairs has adequately handled the issue of hiring expatriate workers. I want to confirm that you will recall that His Excellency the President gave us a mandate to go round the country and come up with a report of how many expatriates were doing jobs that can be done by Zambians. We are still working on that, but we have made a lot of progress, and so, we will soon hand over a report to His Excellency the President. We are very committed to this issue.

Mr Chairperson, on job creation, the average annual target for job creation is about 200,000 per year. Although this target may vary from year to year, it is already being achieved. Further, salary increments are budgeted for by the Secretary to the Treasury and their implementation is centralised.

Sir, as regards unemployment, we need to grow the economy to make progress in that regard. I think that the Government is doing everything possible to grow the economy. Some people are against infrastructure development, but that is what will definitely connect the nation. We all know that there will be a lot of advantages that will come out of the nation being connected.

Mr Chairperson, someone talked about the minimum wage and salaries and what we intend to do. As trade unionists, whenever we talked about widening the tax base to include the informal sector, many people would react against it. However, we need to know that the formal sector is now growing thinner at 16 per cent compared to 84 per cent informal sector, which is untapped in the tax net. Therefore, when we start bringing policies here to capture the informal sector, I hope that the action will be supported by all of us.

Mr Chairperson, pension funds the world over develop a country. They are used to develop a country while getting a fair return on their investment. Simply putting National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) money or any other pension monies in the bank will not grow the money. Therefore, we will have very little money being given on monthly basis to our pensioners. So, pensions have to be invested. I am aware, however, that the Investment Policy or the National Pension Scheme Authority Act is very restrictive on how far it can go in terms of investment. We should, therefore, encourage the pension fund to invest so that the pension money can grow in order to give reasonable monthly payments to people who have retired.

Sir, someone talked about the health insurance. This legislation is coming to the House. I am sure that hon. Members have heard us talk about this.

Mr Chairperson, I think that we all know what happened at Intermarket Banking Corporation. Someone said that NAPSA was forced to keep its money in the bank. To the contrary, NAPSA had money in the bank as deposit. I think that we did well to save the bank to avoid bringing a run on many banks.

Sir, we went through this in the 1990s and I know that many people lost their jobs and money. So, let us not take pleasure in seeing any bank go down, especially now. We have to save it. If we can, we have to restructure Intermarket Banking Corporation, as is the case. The money in the bank is there is not for NAPSA and Workers Compensation Control Board alone. We have other ordinary depositors, pensioners included, some of whom are still crying about not knowing what will happen to them if the bank is not saved. Therefore, when the Government moves in to protect a bank in order to save people’s monies, we should encourage it.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue is very passionate about the Kafue Textiles of Zambia (KTZ). We are making a list of all industries that we will inspect and I know that KTZ is one of them.

Mr Chairperson, I want to comment on the transfer of members of staff. According to human resource practice, keeping one person on the same desk for thirty years in the same office does not motivate a worker. My father was one of the first District Commissioners in this country and I know that we moved from one town to another a lot. The most we stayed in a town was one year. This was the policy of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government or Federal Government that time. It is motivating to move people from place to place. When workers sit on one desk for a long time, …

Interruptions

Mrs Simukoko: … they start teeming and lading. They become corrupt and even stealing takes place. So, we are talking to the workers. Some of you are old-fashioned. You do not even understand human resource practice.

Interruptions

Mrs Simukoko: Sir, let us allow people to mingle. We are developing this country so that when a Lusaka resident goes to Mongu or Solwezi, he or she still feels like he or she is in Lusaka. We have so many people in Lusaka because other towns are not developed. Let us develop the country so that people do not feel disadvantaged when they are transferred. Moving a worker from one department to another or from one desk to another is motivation in itself. Those who have done human resource will agree with me.

Mr Mwiinga: Question!

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, I think that we are doing a lot in job creation. We have started with agriculture where already, there are very big opportunities to grow cash crops beyond the staple food. Cassava is on the list of crops to be grown so that talcum powder can be produced from it. We want to link people to markets as well so that they can get a fair return on their agricultural activities.

Mr Chairperson, if I omitted to comment on some of the contributions, I still thank the hon. Member for debating the budget for my ministry. I have taken note of your valuable contributions and the ministry will take action.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 44/01 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Headquarters – K19,922,120).

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K2,708,540, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K1,840,190. All other allocations have gone up, but the emoluments in these divisions have been reduced. Can the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security defend her ministry.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to pay salaries for officers in Division I during 2018. The reduction in salary for Division I is due to re-allocation of resources to the newly-established Department of Finance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbangweta: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5007, Activity 003 – Personnel Related Arrears – K397,800. I would just like to appreciate the nature of these arrears. Why are we providing for them this year when we did not last year?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, could the hon. Member repeat the question. I did not get it very well.

Mr Mbangweta: Mr Chairperson, I would like to appreciate the nature of these personnel related arrears which have been for provided for this year, but were not provided for last year.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, I would like to make an appeal to those who are asking questions to help me by mentioning the page numbers as well so that it can be easier for me to …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The page number is 584, Programme 5007.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the provision of K397,800 is required to reduce personnel related arrears in 2018 because there was no provision for this activity in 2017.

I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 183 – Construction, Rehabilitation and Maintenance of Buildings (Rehabilitation of Field Stations) – K750,000. I realise that there was an allocation of K1,000,000 in 2017 and that there is a reduction to K750,000 in 2018. Could the hon. Minister clarify the reduction.

Mrs Simukoko remained seated.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, are we lost?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Page 584, Programme 5011 – Activity 183 – Construction, Rehabilitation and Maintenance of Buildings (Rehabilitation of Field Stations) – K750,000. The neighbours should help.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the reduction was due to the fact that a lot of activities on this particular activity took place in the last financial year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5031, Activity 017 – Procurement and Supplies Management – Nil. There is no provision and I would like to find out why this is the case.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the provision of this amount is required to facilitate asset verification and stocktaking in all field stations. The increment is due to the increased number of field stations to be inspected in 2018.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, can you clarify on Programme 5031, Activity 017 – Procurement and Supplies Management – Nil. The hon. Member wants to know why there is no allocation for 2018.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the non provision of funds to this activity is due to consolidation of resources to Programme 5003, Activity 042 – Professional Development & Capacity Building – K105,200 and Programme 5031, Activity 033 – Ministerial Tender Committee – K66,100.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 44/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 44/02 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Labour Department – K5,908,740).

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5069, Activity 031 – District Labour Employment Exchange – K100,000. There was no allocation for 2017, yet we have an allocation for 2018. Why is that the case and will this activity cover Mitete?

Mrs Simukoko: The provision of K100,000 is required to facilitate employment exchange services fees in districts. This is a new provision intended to increase public access to employment and labour market information.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): May I have clarification on Programme 5002, Activity 045 – African Regional Labour Administrative Council – K150,000. This figure has literally tripled from K40,000 in 2017 and I would like to find out why this is the case

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the provision of K150,000 is required to enable the ministry participate in the African Regional Labour Administrative Council hierarchy, which is held annually. The increase of K110,000 is due to an increase in the number of activities and cost of travel.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 44/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 44/03 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – National Productivity Development Department – K2,928,720).

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 383 – Establishment of Productivity Centre – K511,350. I would like the hon. Minister to explain the leap from K180,000 in 2017.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, let the hon. Member repeat his question.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The page number is 589, Programme 5005, Activity, 383 – Establishment of Productivity Centre – K511,350. Why this increase?

Mrs Simukoko remained seated.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, have you found page 589, Programme 5005?

Ms Chalikosa moved from her seat to sit next to Mrs Simukoko.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Question!

The Deputy Chairperson: I hope the hon. Minister is now there.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

The hon. Minister has found the page.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5005, Activity 383 – Establishment of Productivity Centre – K511,350, is required to facilitate operationalisation of the productivity centre. The increase of 64.8 per cent is intended to ensure completion of outstanding activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 44/03 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 44/04 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Occupational Safety and Health Services Department – K2,925,600).

Mr Mwene: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 591, Programme 02, Activity 023.

The Deputy Chairperson: There is no such programme on that page.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I am thankful for catching your eye. I was almost getting scared that I will not be given a chance.

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not be.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, Programme 5069 appears twice on page 591 under Unit 2. In the first instance, it has three activities, namely; Activity 010 – Inspections of Lifting Machinery – K130,000, Activity 011 – Inspection of Pressure Vessels – K140,000 and Activity 023 – Inspection of Factories - Mechanic and Electrical – K152,560. At the bottom of the same page, there is, again, Programme 5069, Activity 013 – Occupational Diseases and Accident Investigations – K53,900 and Activity 022 – Inspection of Factories – Occupational Hygiene (AIA) – K161, 170. The same Programme 5069 is equally appearing on page 592. Can the hon. Minister explain why this same programme, which is Decent Work Promotion, appearing so many times?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, the question is why Programme 5069 appears on both pages 591 and 592.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, although that programme appears many times, the activities are not the same. In one instance, the programme relates to training, while in another it has to do with inspections.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Mr Chairperson, I also seek clarification on Unit 03, Programme 5069, Activity 022 – Inspection of Factories - Occupational Hygiene (AIA) – K161, 170. On the next page, which is 592, there is also Unit 04, Programme 5069, Activity 021 − Inspection of Factories - Construction Sites (AIA) − K179, 280. It seems the same activity has been repeated under this programme. Why is that so?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the first one is under Unit 03, Programme 5069, Activity 022 – Inspection of Factories – Occupational Hygiene (AIA) – K161, 170. The second one is under Unit 04, Programme 5069, Activity 021 − Inspection of Factories - Construction Sites (AIA) − K179, 280. These are two different activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 593 …

The Deputy Chairperson: We are not yet there. We are still on Vote 44/04.

Interruptions

Vote 44/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 44/05 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Planning and Research Department – K6,385,860).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5006, Activity 019 – African Regional Administration Centre – K600,000. I assume each year there is a fixed amount that is supposed to be subscribed and this year it was K50,000. I wonder why all of a sudden this annual subscription has jumped to K600,000. Does it mean there are arrears or what is the explanation behind this drastic jump?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the increase is as a result of firstly, the payment of subscription fees to the African Regional Administration Centre (ARAC) in 2018 and secondly, the increase of K550,000 is meant to settle outstanding subscription arrears for 2016 and 2017 respectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5012, Activity 036 – Gender and Labour Market Management – K15,000. Why was there no allocation to this Activity in 2017?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, this is a new activity which will be undertaken next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5030, Activity 159 – Budget Preparation – K50,000. In 2017, K300,000 was allocated to this Activity. May I know why the amount has been reduced to this level in 2018?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, sorry, let me have the question again.

Mr Chairperson: In 2017, Budget Preparation was allocated K300,000 and next year, the allocation is K50,000. Why has there been this reduction?

Mrs Simukoko: The amount has reduced because the activities we want to undertake have also been reduced.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 008 – Long Term Training – K70,000. In previous years, this Activity was not there. Can the hon. Minister explain to us what has motivated her to conduct this long-term training which has been allocated K70,000?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the provision of K70,000 is required to pay for tuition fees, subsistence and travel allowances to officers on training. The provision of this amount is due to the reallocation of resources from Activity 023.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: I seek clarification on page 595 ...

The Deputy Chairperson: We have not reached there yet.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5010, Activity 004 – Management Information System – K275,000. In 2017, K100,000 was allocated to this Activity. May I know why this figure has reached this high level for 2018?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to purchase information communication technology (ICT) equipment in 2018. The increase of K175,000 is due to reallocation of resources from Programme 5030, Activity 159 – Budget Preparation – K50,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5006, Activity 019 – African Regional Administration Centre – K600,000. Why has that figure gone astronomically high, from K50,000 in 2017 to K600,000 in 2018?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the provision of K600,000 is required to pay annual subscription fees to the African Regional Administration Centre (ARAC) in 2018. The increase of K550,000 is meant to settle outstanding subscription arrears for 2016 and 2017 respectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 44/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 44/06 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Social Security Department – K2,722,010).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 008 – Long Term Training – K59,230. Firstly, I wonder what type of long-term training this is because the amount is meagre and secondly, how many people are envisaged to undergo the training.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the funds are required to pay for tuition fees, travel and subsistence allowances for officers undertaking long-term training programmes. The increase of K9,230 is due to increase in the cost of training.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K1,249,300, Activity – 002 – Salaries Division II − K46,480. Why have the figures for these Activities remained constant in 2017 and 2018? Does this mean there will be no increment on emoluments?

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K1,249,300, the provision is required to pay officers in Division I in 2018. The amount remains unchanged as the complement is the same. On Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K46,480, the is required to pay officers in Division II during 2018. The amount remains unchanged as the staff complement is the same.

Mr Sing’ombe: I seek clarification on page 597 …

The Deputy Chairperson: We are not there yet. In fact, that is different Vote.

Mr Lufuma: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I had asked …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili and Mr Livune left the Assembly Chamber.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lufuma: The brothers!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Lufuma is on the Floor.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, if you may recall the question on page 595, Programme 5003, Activity 008 – Long Term Training – K59,230, I had asked the hon. Minister how many students were envisaged to undergo this training given the amount that is allocated is only K59,230. I still expect an answer.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member wants to find out how many students can be accommodated in this amount indicated here.

Mrs Simukoko: Mr Chairperson, the provision was meant for two professional staff.

Vote 44/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 44/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 26 – (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting – K125,201,480).

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Ms Mulenga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the 2018 Budget Estimates and Expenditure for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services.

Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to sincerely render my gratitude to His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, for providing a clear vision of taking this country to higher heights. Let me also applaud Her Honour the Vice-President for her able leadership in guiding the business of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, allow me also to congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance on the clear economic policy direction aimed at consolidating the gains made in the last five years and providing direction in the diversification programme.

Mr Chairperson, the various developmental programmes in health, education, infrastructure and social protection are unprecedented. The ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services will provide support in implementation of these projects by ensuring that progress on each one of them is reported to the general public to ensure that it is well-informed about these achievements.

Sir, as you are aware, my ministry has the mandate to effectively provide and use information to interpret Government policies and facilitate the development of the media sector for a well-informed citizenry. Our vision is, “A well-informed nation by 2030” and we are progressively moving towards the realisation of this vision.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: In order to fulfill this mandate, my ministry has a comprehensive policy framework which guides formulation of programme priorities. Information remains a cross-cutting issue and as such, it supports all developmental activities undertaken by all sectors of the economy. Therefore, my ministry continues to play a critical role of providing information to the public on Government activities and developmental programmes.

Sir, the ministry is implementing the Digital Migration Project and I am happy to report to this august House that a lot of progress has been made and some fruits of this project have started showing. The first phase of the Digital Migration Project was completed in 2015. However, due to the lack of decoders and operational mechanism, this phase remained non operational until later on in 2016.

Sir, the Government has made a bold decision to start Phases II and III of the Digital Migration Project by consolidating all the different components into one project. Further, the Government sourced the funds to implement the project and now, Zambia can claim to be one of the first countries to implement a comprehensive digital migration project covering transmission, production and user access all in one shot. I want to make emphasis that Zambia can claim to be one of the first countries to implement a comprehensive digital migration project covering transmission production and user access all in one shot.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: In Phases II and III of the project, Mr Chairperson, we will do the following:

construct six provincial broadcasting stations in Mongu, Chipata, Mansa , Kasama, Chinsali and Kabwe;
construct the National Operation Centre Complex at Mass media;
rehabilitate five existing television studios, four for the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) and one for the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS);
supply and install state-of-the-art television studio equipment in all the eight provincial broadcasting stations;
supply and install state-of-art studio equipment in the five rehabilitated studios;
supply and install seventy-three digital television transmission systems. Sixty-three of the seventy-three will be installed in new sites while ten will be installed to expand Phase I network.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Ms Mulenga: It is under progress.

supply 1,250,000 decoders for sale to the public at very affordable prices. The price of the decoder is now at K99.00 to ensure that every household has chance to buy one.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the total cost of the digital migration project is US$273 million and it has been borrowed from the Export Import Bank of China. As a responsible Government, we decided to borrow reasonably …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: … by ensuring that mechanisms to repay the loan are put in place.

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the decision by the Government led to the establishment of a special purpose vehicle called Top Star Communication Company Limited. This company is a joint venture between the ZNBC and Star Times Communications Company Limited of China. So, the ZNBC still remains a national broadcaster.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Top Star is now operational and its impact is already being felt on the ground. The company has employed more than 260 staff. In addition, more than 500,000 decoders have been sold and Top Stars’ operation has covered the whole line of rail and is still growing.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy to report that the country migrated smoothly in areas along the line of rail to digital terrestrial television services on 1^st October, 2017. Progressively, all other areas will be migrating to digital television, as the installations of transmission systems are completed.

Mr Livune: Question!

Ms Mulenga: Thirty more sites are now under test transmission and very soon, we will announce analogue switch off in the areas covered by these thirty sites.

Hon. Government Member: Tell them, hon. Minister!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, despite all the progress made regarding the implementation of this project, my ministry is still facing challenges with finalising the construction of two provincial broadcasting stations in Choma and Solwezi. These contracts were awarded in 2014 under Government financing. However, very little progress has been made because of the lack of funding.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo interjected.

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, however, the Government has taken the very bold step of accelerating the construction of these two provincial broadcasting stations by allocating an additional US$30 million towards dismantling the arrears owed to the contractors.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, with significant progress made in the implementation of the projected highlighted above, my ministry will now focus its attention on content. Content is king in the broadcasting sector and the production of local content can help enhance national unity, preserve our cultural heritage and promote national development.

Sir, for the first time, the approval of the National Film Policy by the Cabinet in June, 2017, is a clear testimony of the Government’s commitment to creative industries.

Mr Livune: Question!

Ms Mulenga: In that regard, Sir, the ministry will introduce reforms to ensure that the National Film, Digital Migration and National Information and Media policies are implemented.

Mr Chairperson, we intend to introduce measures to make the provision of public broadcasting services more accountable to the people and financially sustainable. In that regard, the ministry will review all the relevant laws under its mandate to facilitate this process. Therefore, I commend the hon. Minister of Finance for proposing to increase the television levy from K3 to K5.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Ms Mulenga: The levy will certainly improve the revenue base for the ZNBC, as it implements its mandate of providing public broadcasting services for my colleagues on both the left and the right.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: May I appeal to the hon. Members to support this revenue measure. I want to assure the House ...

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You will be given a chance to debate. Allow the hon. Minister to give her statement.

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your protection.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: You are supported!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, may I appeal to hon. Members to support this revenue measure.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Ms Mulenga: I assure the House that mechanisms will be put in place to better account for the funds once raised from the levy. In fact, this House will be updated on the revenue collected through this levy quarterly. There will be updates for the first time in the history of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, further, I intend to propose changes in broadcasting regulatory frameworks to ensure that all content service providers promote local content. It is for this reason that the Government is requiring all content service providers that do not meet the 35 per cent local content threshold to pay landing rights for foreign content.

The revenue raised from the landing rights will be used to promote the development of local content by our own film producers. This is the surest way of contributing to job and wealth creation in the creative industry and most importantly, preserving our cultural heritage.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has taken steps to expand the frequency modulation (FM) radio services in rural areas in order to ensure that there is access to information. This will also reduce the misinformation being peddled, particularly in remote areas, by people who are bent on fomenting disunity in the country. In that regard, funds have been made available in the 2018 Budget to continue with the Rural FM Project that has been suspended due to the lack of funds.

Mr Chairperson, ZANIS is key in the provision of developmental news and information. It is for this reason that the ministry has taken steps to build capacity in the department to provide its services more efficiently and effectively. In 2018, the ministry has dedicated resources to ensure that basic equipment and facilities are provided for each rural district. In addition, the Government will start the rehabilitation of ZANIS offices to ensure to conducive environment is provided for the staff to operate in.

Mr Livune: Question!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, in terms of Budget details, the ministry has been allocated a total of K125, 201,480 in the 2018 Budget compared to K86,185,959 in 2017, representing about a 45.3 per cent increase. This is a clear testimony that the Government is committed to the development of the information and broadcasting sector.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has proposed to spend K33,745,970 on dismantling of arrears, especially those related to the construction of provincial broadcasting stations in Choma and Solwezi. In addition, K12,381,988 is proposed to be spent on digital migration projects, mainly to pay for the Phase I project. A total sum of K11,895,000 will go towards media institution support, as grants and K24,122,460 on personal emoluments. This is leaving a balance of K43,056,062 which will go towards other programmes.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has also provided K1 million for dismantling of arrears for the Zambia Institute of Mass Communication (ZAMCOM). ZAMCOM is being restructured and transformed to contribute to the development of skills for the implementation of the Film Policy besides its existing mandate.

Mr Livune: Question!

Ms Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the ministry is very keen on ensuring that people, especially those in the rural areas, are well-informed by providing quality and accurate information on the developmental projects, which are taking place in the country. In that regard, the ministry will install village television in 500 villages across the country with the support of the Government of the People’s Republic of China. This means that we are leaving nobody behind as we migrate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga: Sir, this project is a donation and it is part of the implementation of the Forum for China Africa Co-operation (FOCAC).

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, may I assure the House that the ministry will not only endeavour to fulfill its commitment, but will also deliver to the best of its ability knowing very well that the people of Zambia deserve quality developmental news and information. I, therefore, urge the hon. Members on the left and the right of the House to support the ministry’s budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote for the ministry of Information and broadcasting.

Mr Chairperson, I want to make it very clear and categorical …

Mr Kasonso: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: … that we will oppose this particular Vote.

Hon UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, this particular ministry has been fomenting chaos.

Mr Jere: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: It has been fomenting tension in this country …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: … as a result of misinformation and propaganda.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: This ministry, Mr Chairperson, does not deserve any ngwee …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … of the public funds.

This ministry, Mr Chairperson, is a disservice to this country. It reminds me of the ministry of Propaganda in Iraq, ‘Comical’ Ali ( Muhammed Saeed al-Sahhaf).

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: This ministry …

Mr Chiteme: Chemical not comical.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, this particular ministry, instead of propagating unity in the country has been used to propagate disunity …

Mr Kasonso: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and dislocation of the once “One Zambia, One nation”.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: This ministry, Mr Chairperson, is one that has been abused by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: By the PF leader.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is no longer a ministry of the Government as far as we are concerned.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: It is a propaganda wing of the PF.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chiteme: Comical Ali!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: For those who do not know Comical Ali, he was the Minister of ‘Misinformation’ in Iraq during the Iraq invasion.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Chiteme: That is Mrs Chemical Ali.

Mr Mwiimbu: There was Chemical Ali and Comical Ali. Comical Ali was the one who was in charge of information in Iraq.

Mr Sing’ombe: Now there is comical Mulenga.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, this ministry has abused the Times of Zambia, Daily Mail and dead NBC.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We used to call it the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), but now it is called dead broadcasting corporation …

Ms Mulenga: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: … because it has ceased to live to the mandate that was given to the broadcasting authority by the people of this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, you are all aware that under Article 50, which I will read out to this House, for those who have not read the Constitution, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … for ease of reference, it reads:

“A political party and a candidate contesting an election shall have access to the media, especially during election campaigns.”

Mr Kasonso: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: This particular ministry ensured that any Opposition party had no access to the public media …

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … during elections and it has continued abrogating the Constitution by not allowing any other member of the public and a political party other than the PF to appear on the ZNBC to propagate their views.

Mr Sing’ombe: Cadres!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: So, why should we, the tax payers in this country, fund an institution that does not serve our interests? Why should we and other Zambians pay tax to enable the PF to manage its affairs? The answer is there is no need.

Hon. PF Members: Order, order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 8^th November, 2017.

______________

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