Thursday, 26th October, 2017

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Thursday, 26th October, 2017


The House met at 1430 hours


[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]













VOTE 01/01 – (Office of the PresidentState House – K70,508,750).


(Consideration resumed)


Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote for State House. Allow me to start by saying that State House and many other institutions will outlive most of us. State House will probably outlive the nation because there will always be a State House regardless of whether we like it or not. The name of the institution might change over time, but there will always be a place where the supreme leader of the country resides and works from. That institution must be respected and protected by all of us regardless of the person who occupies it. We must be very grateful that one of us occupies it and rules the country.


Madam Chairperson, we have been very fortunate to have had four Presidents who were Members of Parliament before they became Presidents.


Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: They understood the role this House plays in the governance of this country. They went to State House aware of the work we do here.


Madam Chairperson, State House is the mother of all Government ministries in the country. It is the centre to which all ministries adjoin. At times, some people forget that State House is actually a ministry. It has divided itself into so many units because of the many functions it executes in the country. The President is the Chief Minister and, if it were possible, he would be in every ministry working. Therefore, the President is responsible for everything that happens in the ministries. The people he appoints Ministers are those he believes can do things the way he wants them to be done. In short, whatever happens in the ministries is done according to his will.


Madam Chairperson, let me correct one misconception. Last week, I heard a few people debate the allocation to State House, and most did not have an issue with the K70,508,750 allocated. In fact, most of them said that they thought the amount was not enough. The concern they had was over the placement of the Road Development Agency (RDA) and the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Unit under State House. That concern is the reason I am saying what I am saying. I will give a very simple example to help Zambians understand why State House has the right to place the two institutions under it. State House is like a house with many rooms, and it is up to the owner of the house to choose which room will be used as a study room, gymnasium, lounge room, television (TV) room, et cetera. The owner of the house is also at liberty to change the use of the rooms at whatever time he or she chooses. For example, he or she might move a book from the library to the bedroom and that will not change the purpose or nature of the book. It will not become a ‘bedroom’ book. Instead, it will remain the same library book. The owner merely wants it to be closer to him or her because he wants to use it. He or she has particular interest in it.


Madam Chairperson, I know many people were surprised when the late President, His Excellency Mr Sata, moved the RDA to State House. However, you can see the difference the move has made. It is very difficult for all the hon. Ministers to get funding. If the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development did not have help from the President, it would not have got the amount of money it has been given. When the late President, His Excellency Dr Mwanawasa, SC., took particular interest in the Ministry of Agriculture, everyone saw the country move from a deficit position to a surplus position in maize production. Had the then President not taken particular interest in the sector, we would not have achieved the surplus.


Madam Chairperson, the current President decided to take the PPP Unit near him so that it can take a different direction. It would have been very difficult for the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development to get all the money he wanted for his ministry on his own. So, it is not strange that the President moved the unit closer to himself. However, he did not make it a part of State House. Permutations are plentiful in Government institutions, depending on what the Presidents want to happen. For example, Her Honour the Vice-President was once Minister of National Development and Planning. Further, in one of our neighbouring countries, a President also acted as Speaker of the National Assembly at some point. In our case, we are fortunate that the President took interest in guiding the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development because things are happening now. He has taken an interest in an area that has somehow been neglected, namely the PPP area, and we shall see the unit revamped. So, I do not see the reason many people think the unit was taken to State House for it to be used to facilitate corruption. I think we should see the bigger picture. If the President is not happy with the allocations to a unit or the way it is managed, he can take it nearer to him, and we should all support that.


 Madam Chairperson, the President wants our collective loyalty. When we put a person in State House, we must understand that he needs our support and loyalty for him to perform because there is so much that happens around him. When anything illegal or wrong happens, even if the President was not personally involved in it, people somehow assume that he commissioned it. As such, he bears the brunt of that problem. That is possible because whatever happens in the Government, the buck stops at the Presidency. So, it is important that the President, whoever he might be, gets our total support and loyalty.


Madam Chairperson, in his book titled The Prince, Machiavelli mentions a rule that never or rarely fails about people who believe that they are the king makers. In Chapter 3, which he titled, “Of Mixed Monarchies”, he states that:


“Whoever is the cause of making another powerful is ruined himself because the power that he yields is by craft or by force and both of these are suspect by the one who has been made powerful.”

Madam Chairperson, the statement above means that at any given time, someone will be our President. The most important thing such a person will expect from us is loyalty and support or else we, who feel that we made him President, will be his first victims. This is a rule that never fails. Therefore, whoever wants to be difficult to the person in State House is just ruining himself or herself because that is the rule.


I thank you, Madam.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


The Chairperson: Hon. Members, last week, a number of you debated this Head. I will, therefore, only allow Hon. Lufuma, Kabanda and Dr Malama, in that order, to debate it. Thereafter, we will have to make progress.


Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to add one or two words on the debate on the allocation to the Office of the President, State House.


Madam Chairperson, the President is the Head of the nation and the Chief Executive Officer of the Government. As such, he has some responsibilities. One of his responsibilities is to ensure that resources are mobilised and utilised in a manner that ensures efficiency in the economy and effective delivery of goods and services to the citizens, who are the shareholders in this company called Zambia. Basically, his role is to provide leadership and a vision of the direction he wants this country to take. If he has no vision, then, he has no business being in State House. That is very important. Otherwise, he will sit at State House and do nothing.


Madam Chairperson, the President must also structure the Government in such a way that there is efficient utilisation of resources for the purpose of delivering various goods and services in order, for instance, to reduce poverty, inequality and all the evils this country faces and, due to this broad mandate of the Presidency, everything that happens is attributable to the President. So, for instance, if the police are brutal, apply the Public Order Act in a selective manner and irritate the people like they are currently doing, whom do we blame? It is the Presidency or State House because the President is the appointing authority of the Inspector-General and all those who have ifinkobenkobe, the ranking officers who run the police. So, the buck stops at the Presidency. With regard to the inefficiency of Government ministries, we can use the example of the Ministry of Agriculture, not because it is inefficient, but because it does not deliver inputs on time. Suddenly, the price of maize has been changed from K85 to K65 per 50 kg bag. This means that the farmers will make a K20 loss on every bag they sell. I wonder how many companies in Zambia would survive a 25 per cent loss in revenue.


Further, if there is no media freedom and journalists are being harassed left, right and centre, and there is no freedom of assembly, speech and association among citizens, we attribute that to the Presidency because the it is its responsibility to safeguard these freedoms. The President is the overall responsible person. Equally, if there is rampant corruption and unequal representation of the regions in the Public Service, for instance, in the diplomatic service, that is attributable to the Presidency because it appoints the personnel in the diplomatic service and other key institutions of governance in the country.


Madam Chairperson, the role of the Presidency is not only to be the Head of State, but also to provide moral leadership. It is very important for the President to espouse good values so that they can be inculcated in the people of this country and his ministries. The values include honesty, integrity, love, abhorrence of greed, which is usually the reason there is rampant corruption, and injustice.


Madam Chairperson, we all know that the Patriotic Front Party (PF) was elected on the basis of its promise to reduce taxes and unemployment and end poverty, hunger and, especially, corruption. However, what we see now is increased corruption; inefficiency in the economy and inefficient utilisation of the resources; increased inequalities among people and regions in terms of wealth and poverty levels. All these vices are rampant in the PF’s rule in Zambia. For example, there are many examples of corruption we can cite, one of which is the infamous procurement of 42 million fire tenders, each costing US$1million.


Mrs Simukoko: Dollars!


Mr Lufuma: No matter how much the Government wants to defend that deal, it is completely unacceptable. As one of the hon. Minister has claimed, the fire tenders look more like wheelbarrows.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lufuma: There is also the K1.2 billion contract for the construction of the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriage way. Again, that is a source of concern for citizens, who are the shareholders. They are saying that is unacceptable because it does not represent value for money. So, they want the contract cancelled. The owners of the country and resources want a fairer contract signed. Another example is that of Grandview, which is now a darling company to the PF, and has been getting contracts left, right and centre. We do not know why because the company was only recently incorporated, and there are issues of transparency and accountability ...


The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!


You know that our practice does not allow you to mention people who have no way of coming here to defend themselves. Please, withdraw that reference to Grandview, ...


Dr Kambwili: Aah!


The Chairperson: ... and focus your debate on State House.


Dr Kambwili: That is a company.


Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, these are issues related to State House. However, I withdraw the reference to the company’s name.


Madam Chairperson, there is a newly-formed company that is a darling of the PF and is getting contracts left, right and centre. We are suspicious because there are issues of transparency and accountability.


Madam Chairperson, we have issues surrounding the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) and the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Unit, whose placement under State House has been defended by my colleague who spoke before me. The Road Development Agency (RDA), by law, is supposed to be under the Ministry of Finance and it must be moved back there. My colleague also referred to this matter. It must be placed where it can be accessed by everybody. State House can supervise it, but not take it over. These and other examples show that the PF Administration is blind to corruption.


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Mr Lufuma: Everybody is able to see the rampant corruption in the country except the PF, and one wonders why. Are the PF members the only Jews in Jerusalem who do not know that Christ has risen? Are they the only Zambians in Zambia who do not see the corruption?


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Mr Lufuma: Everyone can smell the corruption in the air, and it has to come to an end.


Madam Chairperson, it is a fact that a fish starts rotting from the head. State House is the head of this country and the fish is starting to rot from there.


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lufuma: As a result, State House has no moral right to fight corruption.


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Mr Lufuma: It has lost the integrity and resolve ...


Ms Kapata interjected.


Mr Lufuma: ... to fight corruption. My sister, what I am saying is that it is little wonder ..


Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Madam.


The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!


I will not allow any point of order. Please, resume your seat.


Mr Lufuma: ... that when we talk about corruption, we are challenged to produce evidence.


Ms Kapata: Yes, provide evidence.


Mr Lufuma: Why should we provide evidence? This country has an Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), an independent institution mandated to investigate corruption. That is why we fund the commission.


Ms Kapata interjected.


Mr Lufuma: I do not need to bring evidence to you.


Madam Chairperson, there is an hon. Member here who has information. Why can the ACC not call him to give information on the US$42 million saga?


Hon. Government Members: He was there.


Mr Lufuma: It is important for the institutions we set up to start working. Otherwise, we start wondering what State House is doing about it. Currently, there is no political will to fight corruption. So, even if we provided evidence, no one would act on it. It will just be put aside. For instance, President Sata once said he was allergic to corruption. However, he also said that investigative agencies needed his permission to investigate his Ministers. Under President Lungu, we are being told that we need to bring evidence.


Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Madam.


Mr Lufuma: These are conflicting signals that point to the absence of the political will ...




The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!


I see that you have even run out of time but, maybe, that is not too bad because it appears to me that you have run out of issues to debate. I know that people have different views on these issues, but when you refer to people who have passed on in your debates, like you have to the late President, Mr Sata, you are not upholding our moral and cultural norms, as Zambians.


That is my guidance.


You may conclude your debate in the fifty-three seconds you still have.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I apologise for my reference to President Sata, may his soul rest in peace.


Mr Chitotela interjected.


Mr Lufuma: What I am driving at is that there are conflicting signals from the PF Government vis-à-vis corruption that indicate a lack of the political will to fight corruption. The Presidency is supposed to be in the forefront fighting against corruption, but we know what is happening there. So, we will not get rid of corruption if the people of Zambia do rise and hold our leaders to account.


I thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me an opportunity to debate on this Head.


Madam Chairperson, we often make the mistake of looking at individuals in certain institutions. We should look at State House as an institution instead of looking at the individual who occupies it. The institution requires the support of every well-meaning Zambian ...


Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!


Mr Kabanda: ... because it is the seat of the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of this country.


Madam, we often hear people grumble about the networking that our Head of State does in order to bring development to this country. However, I think that the President’s trips are beneficial to this nation. To suggest that his trips are not beneficial is off tangent.


Madam Chairperson, I cannot subtract anything from what the previous speakers have said about State House.


Hon. Opposition Member: About corruption?


Mr Kabanda: Suffice it for me to reiterate our need to see it for the very important institution that it is to this nation. In that regard, even the building must be refurbished because it portrays who we are as Zambians. When foreign dignitaries see the deplorable state of that building, they surely read volumes about us, Zambians, from that. The building is falling apart. So, more resources need to be provided for it to be made habitable.


I thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate.

Madam, the President is the Head of State and embodiment of the soul of the nation. He is the chief of the State. So, he is not an individual, per se. The Presidency is a system or council that requires the support of all citizens. In the countries that we admire, the Heads of State are highly respected even by their arch political competitors. They give their Presidents due accolades. People like John F. Kennedy are examples of those who have held that office and were respected by the people they led. The President is Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces and works twenty-four hours a day and seven days a week. Therefore, he needs the support of all.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, when one ascends to the Office of the President, many of his or her “rights” are withdrawn and a lot is expected of him. For example, he or she must preserve peace, rule of law, good governance and prosperity in the land. Further, in case of any attack on the nation, the Office of the President is the first to be alerted. Therefore, the incumbent President and those to follow him need a lot of support. They should not be taken for granted. So, we should develop a tradition of providing the Office of the President with enough resources so that it can work efficiently for the people of Kanchibiya, Lundazi, Kaputa, Nalolo and …


Mr Mutelo: Mitete.


Dr Malama: … Mitete.


Mr Ngulube: And Kabwe Central!


Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, when I was young, about two decades ago, I got worried when some security tunnels in and out of State House were revealed to the public. As a nation, we need to review where we keep our Head of State to ensure that he is safe.


Madam Chairperson, in some countries, when the Head of State is under attack, they are able to take his office into outer space to ensure that there is security in the nation. That is how important this office is. I know that, sometimes, people want to ridicule it. However, it is a great office in the land. We saw our neighbours to the east lose their Head of State in an air crash because of the means he used to fly based on the resources he was given. In some countries, they have invested a lot of money in ensuring that the buildings in which their Head of State stay, the aircrafts in which they fly and the limousines in which they are driven are protected if the Head of State is under attack because he is the soul of the land.


Madam, the Head of State is the chief legislator. He comes to address Parliament on issues that concern the nation. Further, when the Minister of Finance presents the Budget to this House, he comes on behalf of the President. That shows the significance of the Office of the President.


Madam Chairperson, when I was a young officer, I was taught that if my friend, for example,  Hon. Nkuwa, was promoted to a higher rank, I was to salute him not because of who he is, but because of the powers that would have been vested in him. Equally, when the nation says Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu is President, the salute that is accorded to him is given to the nation.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




Dr Malama: Is that my brother, Hon. Dr Kambwili, questioning?


Dr Kambwili: Nangu wale kwinya!




Dr Malama:  I used to respond when I was Commanding Officer for the Copperbelt. I will not do so now.


The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Dr Malama!


Focus on the debate.


Dr Malama: I am very focused, Madam Chairperson.


Mr Ngulube: Ema IG aba!


Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, what we are talking about is very important. When people sit where they have been sent to sit and ridicule the Head of State, they are ridiculing Zambians. When a young traffic officer stands to stop the flow of traffic, the hand she or he raises, no matter how thin, is the symbol of his or her authority. He or she does that in the name of the President and all Zambians. Therefore, the Office of the President should be accorded the respect it deserves. All of us seated here are here in the name of the President.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, the President is also the Chief Diplomat and spokesperson of the nation because he speaks for all. He is a world leader. The former President, Mr Rupiah Banda, used to call himself a President for all Zambians, and I admired that slogan. The President is not supposed to have enemies in the country because he or she should protect all the citizens. He or she is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) because he or she appoints people to positions of responsibility.


Madam Chairperson, I thank you.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Chairperson, I thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on the recurrent capital expenditure for State House, namely: Hon. Dr Kambwili, Hon. Nkombo, Hon. Kamboni, Hon. Simbao, Hon. Lufuma, Hon. Kabanda and Hon. Dr Malama.


Madam Chairperson, I thank Hon. Lufuma for acknowledging the importance of the Presidency. What I see around the House is that there are a number of hon. Members of Parliament who are aspiring to be Presidents of this country.


Mr Nkombo: Yes!


The Vice-President: There is nothing wrong with that because they are here as leaders. So, it is normal for them to want to be the President one day. However, I think we need to think twice about the way we treat the Presidency in Zambia because if anyone of the hon. Members was elected to State House and treated the way the current President is treated, I do not think Zambians would be impressed.


Madam, there is a sustained campaign against corruption at State House and among hon. Ministers, but that effort is based on a mere perception …


Mr Livune: Question!


The Vice-President: … because if anyone has come across a corrupt situation or person, he or she should report to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). We all know where its offices are located.


Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: The President has requested the ACC, like I said last Friday, to arrest people who engage in corruption, and citizens have the right to report cases to the security wings, which can investigate them, instead of raising such matters while debating in this august House day in and day out. That amounts to debating to the gallery so that our voices can be heard in our constituencies as we talk about how corrupt this system is. In that regard, I am very disappointed with a number of hon. Members. As I have said before, yes, we should fight corruption, but not in the manner we are doing currently.


Madam, Hon. Dr. Kambwili went to great lengths in commenting on the President’s aides and cast serious aspersions on people who are not in the House to defend themselves. So, I do not think I should comment any further on that matter.


Madam Chairperson, allow me to dwell a little more on the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Unit, which came out prominently in all the debates.


Madam, to repeat what I have said before, the PPP Unit is operating as a department under State House just as an interim measure. The unit’s current institutional framework, as prescribed under the Public-Private Partnership Act of 2009, is as follows:


  1. the PPP Council, chaired by the hon. Minister for Finance, not the President, is the supreme policy-making body and final authority in the awarding of all PPP Projects;


  1. the PPP Technical Committee, which is chaired by the Secretary to the Treasury and comprises technocrats in diverse specialisations and expertise, provides technical support to both the PPP Council and the PPP Unit; and


  1. the PPP Unit is mandated to administer and manage key functions.


Madam Speaker, hon. Members may recall that, in August 2009, Parliament enacted the Public-Private Partnership Act No. 14 of 2009, whose aim was to promote and to facilitate the implementation of privately-financed public infrastructure projects in Zambia and to deliver special services. The Act provided that the PPP Unit be a department in the Ministry of Finance. However, the Ministry of Finance did not establish the unit due to challenges arising from the multiplicity of functions that the unit was to execute, which were sixteen in total. It was, therefore, proposed that the unit be an autonomous body to independently and professionally manage PPP matters.


Madam, the establishment of the PPP Unit as an autonomous body has already been approved in principle by the Cabinet and the reviewing of the relevant amendment Bill by the Ministry of Justice is at an advanced stage. Once that process is completed, the unit will be autonomous and will no longer operate from State House.


Madam Chairperson, Hon. Simbao, who is a former Minister of Transport, has highlighted explained how the President relates with the different functions and portfolios in Government. Where the President sees a slackening of processes, he or she can intervene.


Madam, let me inform the House that the Road Development Agency (RDA) does not operate from State House, as it is a statutory body under the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development. The President, therefore, does not award contracts. Further, there are Government systems in place for awarding contracts in our country.


Madam Chairperson, once again, I thank all those who debated in support of the 2018 Estimates of Expenditure for State House.


I thank you, Madam.


VOTE 01/01 – (Office of the President – State House – K70,508,750).


Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


VOTE 02/01 – (Office of the Vice-President – K60,840,150).


The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President for the year 2018.


Madam, the 2018 Budget has been prepared under the Seventh National Development Plan (7th NDP) and the Economic Stabilisation and Growth Programme, as stated by the hon. Minister of Finance. Therefore, resources have been directed to essential public services and the completion of on-going infrastructure projects. To that effect, hon. Members will realise that there may be some reductions in the allocations to certain programmes and activities due to the change in the strategic focus of the Government, as guided by the 7th NDP, which has departed from sector-based planning to an integrated planning, commonly called the multi-sectoral approach. The new approach requires an enhanced co-ordination framework to actualise the country’s strategic development objectives.


Madam, the Office of the Vice-President is a constitutional office established under Article 110(1) of the Republican Constitution. Its statutory functions are derived from Government Gazette Notice No. 836 of March, 2016, and these are as follows:


  1. Parliamentary business;


  1. disaster and drought mitigation; and


  1. resettlement.


In addition, Madam, my office will play its role of co-ordinating and encouraging multi-sectoral collaboration in order to realise the objectives of the 2018 National Budget. In terms of organisation, the Office of the Vice-President comprises the following:


  1. Human Resource and Administration Department;


  1. Parliamentary Business Division;


  1. Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU);


  1. Department of Resettlement; and


  1. Planning and Information Department.


Madam Chairperson, the Parliamentary Business Division assists the Leader of Government Business in Parliament to co-ordinate Government business in this august House and plays the pivotal role of liaison between the Executive and the Legislature in order to enhance accountability of the Executive to the Legislature and, thereby, promote good governance. In line with its mission, the division will, in 2018, continue with its core mandate of co-ordinating Government business in Parliament by expeditiously processing responses to all Parliamentary oversight instruments, such as questions for oral or written answers, Committee Reports, Bills, Motions and ministerial statements. Further, the division will strengthen its monitoring and evaluation of the implementation of Government assurances highlighted in various Parliamentary oversight instruments like Action-Taken Reports, responses to Parliamentary questions and ministerial statements.


Madam Chairperson, the function of the Department of Resettlement is to resettle targeted citizens both on voluntary and involuntary basis in order to provide them with an alternative livelihood while uplifting living the standards of the rural communities. During the past three years, the department successfully acquired five blocks of land totalling 58,842 ha for resettlement purposes. The demand for resettlement has continued to increase, with 20,186 applications having been received over the same period, compared with 11,296 received from 2013 to 2015. In 2016 alone, 11,883 applications were received. In total, 4,938 farm plots were demarcated and 4,166 allocated during the period. Twenty-four per cent of the plots went to women. The low percentage of allocations to women is attributable to the lower number of women who applied. The National Resettlement Policy provides for allocation of 50 per cent of farm plots to women. Up to 1,813 settlers were recommended for title deeds.


Madam, further, 244 km of an access road network was cleared, and 159 boreholes drilled and equipped with hand pumps in various resettlement schemes countrywide. In addition, twelve clinics were completed while seven classroom blocks were built in some schemes.


Madam, the Department of Resettlement has been allocated K2,768,597 in 2018. Given the high demand for resettlement land by our citizens, the department will focus its efforts on acquiring more land to satisfy the demand in 2018. In addition, my office will optimise the introduction of Cluster Advisory Groups (CAGs) to maximise the delivery of services in the resettlement schemes, which are, by nature, clusters where various Government institutions play complimentary roles. For example, the opening up of access roads to resettlement schemes and the provision of clean water, education and health services, market access and electricity in the schemes will be done using the cluster approach in line with the 7th NDP.


Madam, the Government will continue to locally integrate former refugees who have opted to stay in Zambia.


Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: The Office of the Vice-President is implementing a sustainable resettlement programme with our co-operating partners to ensure that communities in and around the targeted settlement schemes have access to social services and sustainable economic opportunities. In addition, the Government will endeavour to make resettlement communities tolerant, inclusive and integrated into the surrounding community, thereby enabling people to live in peace and harmony.


Madam, I urge all hon. Members to support the budget for the Office of the Vice-President.


Madam Chairperson, I thank you.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to support …


Mr Muchima: On a point of order, Madam.


Dr Kambwili: … the Vote for the Office of the Vice-President.


The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.


Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, I apologise to my brother …


Mr Nkombo: Your elder brother!


Mr Muchima: No, not my elder brother, but my younger brother.


I apologise for disturbing his line of thought. However, I thought it very important to raise this point of order.


Madam Chairperson, we are hon. Members of Parliament and our behaviour and character must be honourable. Not long ago, we witnessed a fight on the premises of Parliament, and I am aware that the matter is still before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services. Further, on Independence Day, 24th October, 2017, on the Copperbelt, hon. Members of Parliament demeaned our status in society by attacking each other with mops. The altercation was covered on Muvi Television News.


Madam Chairperson, Part III of the Constitution of Zambia provides for the protection of the fundamental rights and freedoms of individuals. For example, Article 11(b) provides for the enjoyment of freedom of conscience, expression, assembly, movement and association, and Zambians are a free people. Additionally, we have wanted to reunite this country by preaching forgiveness. Not long ago, we held national prayers championed by the hon. Minister of ‟Christians and Prayersˮ–




Mr Kasonso: Religious Affairs and National Guidance!


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Mr Nkombo: The Minister of God.




Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, we want to heal the wounds among us and unite the nation so that we can champion development. However, what is being witnessed these days demeans the title of ‘honourable Member’.


Madam, my point of order is on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who has stopped being proactive. Is he in order not to investigate this unbecoming behaviour of hon. Members of Parliament attacking each other and mobilising young cadres against each other? Further, is he in order not to inform the nation of the next step he will take, especially here at Parliament? When violence is perpetrated by ordinary citizens, he is very quick to take action. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who is seated there quietly, in order not to take action? According to this newspaper of 26th October, 2017, and a video, which I will lay on the Table, hon. Members of Parliament displayed unbecoming behaviour and disrespected the Constitution.


I need your serious ruling, Madam.


Hon. Member: We want to watch the video clip. There is a television set here.


Mr Muchima laid the Paper and compact disc (CD) on the Table


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, we have a lot of business before us. As you know, passing the Budget, which is a national assignment, is a very important part of our work. Therefore, when you rise, please, do so only if it is absolutely necessary. 


The hon. Member for Ikeleng’i rose on a point of order that he claimed was very serious. Then, he made reference to hon. Members of Parliament attacking each other in here in the precincts of Parliament, and some video and newspaper item in which hon. Members of Parliament attacked each other at some market place somewhere on the Copperbelt. He went on to ask whether the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is in order to sit here and keep quiet when hon. Members of Parliament attacked each other somewhere on the Copperbelt. However, it is very difficult for the Chair to control the conduct of hon. Members of Parliament when they are in their respective constituencies.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Deputy Chairperson: As he knows very well, when he knows of any matter that requires the attention of the police or any other law enforcement agency, as a citizen, he should take it upon himself to report it to the relevant authorities.


Regarding hon. Members of Parliament attacking each other in the precincts of Parliament, the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i knows that the matter is already being dealt with internally using the system that you put in place for yourselves. So, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is in order to sit quietly …


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Deputy Chairperson: …and carry on with the business of the day.


Hon. Dr Chishimba Kambwili, please, continue with your debate.


Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, in supporting the allocation to the Office of the Vice-President, I want to state that if there is any office, currently, that I have a lot of respect for in this country, it is that office, mainly because of its current occupant, who is a woman of integrity.

Mr Lusambo: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: She has no scandals at all ...


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: … and we do not even know her backyard staff because she is very disciplined. We do not see her staff showing off and doing wrong things on account of working in her office. Madam Vice-President, keep it up.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: Posterity will judge you fairly because you have executed your job very well since your appointment. Unlike some people and some offices, I treasure working with you and your office.


Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Vice-President is very important because it oversees some departments whose work has a direct impact on the poor. Therefore, if we can use it very well, I can assure this House that our call for diversification in the agricultural sector can easily be realised. So, we need to invest a lot of money in the Resettlement Department like former President Dr Kaunda used to do. If my memory serves me right, there was a resettlement scheme called Kambilombilo where all the unemployed youths and school dropouts were taken to engage in agricultural production. If this office was given more money, we could revive that programme, and I would assure this House that kind of programme would take all the unemployed youths off the streets. There is so much alcohol abuse today that poor boys and girls are being used for wrong purposes by irresponsible leaders. For example, they are made to run in the streets, insulting others and calling certain areas no-go places for some people.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: Madam, the behaviour of a Minister must be exemplary. Otherwise, we will soon petition the Chief Justice to ascertain whether some people are fit to hold the Office of Minister.




The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member for Roan!


Clearly, we are debating the Office of the Vice-President. So, please, focus on that.


You may continue.


Dr Kambwili: Madam, the use of youths, who fall under the Office of the Vice-President, by irresponsible Ministers is relevant to this Vote.




Dr Kambwili: That is what I am talking about.


Madam Chairperson, the Resettlement Department under this office must serve our youths from unreasonable cadre Ministers who are making confrontation, fighting and insulting others the order of the day. Anyway, we have ourselves to blame because we knew the characters of some of them before we adopted them.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: Madam, the Resettlement Department must take up the task of resettling the youths to protect them from being misused and increase the chances of the diversification programme succeeding. This is because the youths are very energetic and can apply themselves in positive work instead of being used to run on the streets.


Dr Kambwili mimicked trotting youths.




Dr Kambwili:  Madam, really, I cannot understand some people.




Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, you will laugh if you watch the video clip of the hon. Minister to whom Hon. Muchima was referring.


Dr Kambwili mimicked trotting youths again.




Dr Kambwili: Twali ba Minister. Mwati ni bu Minister bwalelo.




Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we were Ministers, not the ones we see today.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: Madam, let me now turn to the land for former miners. If I can remember well, Her Honour the Vice-President and I went to Chingola just before elections to announce that the Government had given land to former miners. To date, however, only 166 plots have been demarcated and letters of offer given to former miners for them. So, those people are complaining that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government used them during elections and that after elections–


Mr Kampyongo: Where?


Dr Kambwili: I am not talking to you, Kampyongo. Three motor vehicles. Kabolala, iwe.


Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.


The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister of Home Affairs!


Can you, please, resume your seat.


Hon. Dr Kambwili, you are making it very difficult for me to allow you to continue debating because you are not heeding my counsel. I have guided you that we are debating the Office of the Vice-President. In addition to that, let me add that Ministers are hon. Members of Parliament. Therefore, in accordance with the rule of this House, we cannot debate them because we would be debating ourselves if we did that.


Mr Mutale: Wamvera?


The Chairperson:  Order, Hon. Mutale!


Hon. Dr Kambwili, you were debating very well initially. Please, try to ignore running commentaries as you continue. Focus on the debate.


You may continue.


Dr Kambwili: Madam, the land that we promised the ex-miners is under the Resettlement Department in the Office of the Vice-President. I have been to that office to push this issue and I was informed that we only needed K600,000 to demarcate the land promised to ex-miners into farms.


Madam, let us not create the impression that politicians are liars. We need to preserve the integrity of politicians.


The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Dr Kambwili!


Can you withdraw the word “liars”.


Dr Kambwili: Madam, I withdraw the word “liars” and substitute it with ‘unreliable and untruthful.’


Madam, when we make promises, we must fulfil them. Otherwise, the people of Zambia will lose confidence in the political leadership. I do not understand why the promise to give ex-miners land has gone unfulfilled for one year when we used it as a campaign tool during the elections. So, I urge Her Honour the Vice-President to expedite its fulfilment so that ex-miners, who currently have nothing to do, can get involved in agriculture.


Madam, the Office of the Vice-President deals with disasters, and there are many schools whose roofs were blown-off. Unfortunately, the Government takes about four years to repair them. For instance, there is a school in Roan Constituency whose roof was blown-off two years ago and the two classrooms are not being used. The Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) received the report but, to date, nothing is being done about it. In view of that, I urge Her Honour the Vice-President to shorten the time her office takes to respond to disasters. Some bridges that were washed away in the last rainy season and were reported to the DMMU have still not been worked on and people cannot go across certain rivers. 


Madam, I appeal to the Her Honour Vice-President, who has executed her functions in an exemplary manner, to attend to the issues I have raised, especially the issue of disasters, so that our people can live better lives. If I had my way, I would increase the allocation to her office because, then, I would know that the money is in safe hands and will be used for its intended purposes, unlike when the money is given to the offices we discussed last week.


Madam Chairperson, I thank you.


Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Chama South an opportunity to support the estimates of expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President. I will first look at the importance of the Office of the Vice-President, the second highest office in our land.


Madam Chairperson, I think it is universally agreed that the person who is in that office has exhibited very high standards of leadership. The office handles Parliamentary Business on behalf of the Executive, covering not only debates like the one we are having now, but also Action-Taken Reports, President’s Speeches and annual reports. That is how significant the office is.


Madam, let us look at the role of the office as regards disaster management and mitigation. The word ‘disaster’ implies an unanticipated occurrence. A disaster can strike any minute. For example, when there was acute hunger in Chama South during the last farming season, I stood on the Floor of this House to appeal to the Office of the Vice-President to address that situation and the office responded by taking maize to the area on time, thereby saving thousands of our people from starvation. That was made possible because of the allocation the activity-based Budget made to the office. Further, in the last farming season, we had the worst army worm invasion of our maize crop. Again, the office responded to ensure food security in the nation. So, if I had my way, I would triple the budget to the office, which has a very hard-working team. I know that the Disaster Management and Mitigation (DMMU) National Co-ordinator was recently promoted to another portfolio. However, his replacement is also equal to the task. I will not mention her name, but I know that should we encounter similar challenges in the future, her office will come to our aid.


Madam Chairperson, almost all constituencies have weather-related challenges, such as strong winds and heavy downpours that destroy the roofs on education or health sector infrastructure. With adequate support, I do not think the DMMU would take three years to roof Pondo Basic and Chimpamba Primary schools or many other schools in Chama South.


Madam Chairperson, regarding resettlement schemes, we can all agree that our policy on land, particularly the 1996 Land Policy which, to date, has not been presented to Parliament, does not safeguard the interest of Zambians. As a result, much of our land is currently owned by foreigners. So, by strengthening the resettlement programme under the Office of the Vice-President, we will not only protect our birth right to own land, as citizens of this country, but also empower the most economically disadvantaged citizens of our country. The programme covers mostly retirees and those who are displaced by unplanned economic eventualities, such as the collapse of the mines, in the case of miners.


Madam, if youths owned land, they would have a stake in this country because Zambia is land. We cannot talk of Zambia without talking about its land. It might be in our interest to remind one another that God has stopped creating land.


Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!


Mr Mung’andu: People can only reclaim land from the seas like Nigeria and many other countries are doing. For this reason, there is a need to scale up the land resettlement programme under the Vice-President’s Office as one of the tools for empowering our citizens.


Finally, Madam, a number of our roads become impassable during the rainy season, which is upon us. In the event of culverts being washed away, it is to the Office of the Vice-President that I am sure we will all run to.


Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I support the estimates of expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President.


Madam, I thank you.


Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me this opportunity to debate the estimates of expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President.


Madam, the Vice-President’s Office is critical to this country, especially given that it is now an elective position, not one to which someone gets appointed. So, it is now in a very strong position, and we need to support it.


Madam, while I support this expenditure, I also wish to say that the office needs to support people in the entire country, not only in Patriotic Front (PF) strongholds.


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Mr Muchima: It needs to deal with issues that affect the people, and it is in a very strong position to do, as Her Honour the Vice-President is a mother and an adviser to the President.


Madam Chairperson, I have seen the office become very active in areas where there are elections, with helicopters flying there to ferry people to where they need to deliver speeches. However, immediately after the elections, the office goes to sleep.


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Mr Muchima: I expect the office to visit Ikeleng’i more when there are no elections. Her Honour the Vice-President should go there and see how her brothers and sisters live in poverty. She should see the suffering of the people in this country.


Madam Chairperson, some schools in North-Western Province had their roofs blown off years ago and I have written to the Office of the Vice-President about them, but the office has not paid attention at all, as nothing has been done about it. There is a school in Nyakaseya area that looks as if it is in a war-torn country. There is another one in Ikeleng’i called Chinyazhi whose roof collapsed a long time ago. There is also a bridge in Sachibondu that collapsed a long time ago and some pupils even died because of that. Another bridge was washed away a long time ago in Senior Chief Kanongesha’s area in Mwinilamba. To date, nothing has been done about them, yet our Government has money that it is spending money on ...


Hon. Opposition Members: Fire tenders.


Mr Muchima: … fire tenders. Why do our colleagues sell one fire truck and give us money? No wonder we want the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to be increased so that we can be ambassadors of the Government in various areas.


Madam, I appreciated the creation of a ministerial position in the Office of the Vice-President because I think that gives the office the means to visit the country. Her Honour’s time is supposed to be spent going around the country to see how impoverished her people are, especially in the poorest provinces, which we all know are Luapula, the North-Western and the Western. These provinces deserve her visitation all the time, not only during election campaigns.


Madam Chairperson, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), which falls under the Office of the Vice-President, is very important and needs resources. The Hon. Minister of Finance sits next to Her Honour the Vice-President and she is more powerful than him. So, she must summon him to her office and ask him to disburse the money you need.


Madam Chairperson, we have given the Government the formula by which we can attend to the problems in our constituencies without the Office of the Vice-President having to hire helicopters to fly to our areas when they need help or her staff following us there. All it needs to do is increase the CDF. We can be bringing reports on the people we save from dying of malnutrition, poverty, and the lack of roads and bridges. People say that mothers are very passionate, and I greatly appreciate Her Honour the Vice-President. However, I would appreciate her more if she went to Ikeleng’i when there are no elections to see what I am talking about. She should also go to Luapula and the Western provinces, particularly Sesheke, and see what is happening there. Zambia is not made up of Lusaka alone, but also of deep rural parts where she is most needed. The structure of this country is made up of three levels, namely the micro, meso and macro levels. The Office of the Vice-President has ignored the micro level completely, yet the power lies in that level.


Madam, I support the Office of the Vice-President. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government had a purpose for creating it.




Mr Muchima: Yes, Hon. Lubinda, there was a purpose for it.


Madam Chairperson, supplementary budgets have been created for the office to help it fight poverty. However, I can report to you today that nothing has been achieved by that. In a local language, I would say ‘moko moko’. There are absolutely no proactive and pragmatic actions for which the office can be appreciated. It gives me a lot of hope to hear the leadership in that office and the Secretary to the Cabinet talk about the Seventh National Development Plan (7th NDP). However, the talk must be followed by action. The development that we celebrate in the urban areas must reach the rural areas too. We should not compare Shang’ombo with Kabwata, where there are tarmac roads and everything else. In villages, people still share drinking water with animals because there are no boreholes, yet the Office of the Vice-President is there. Let the DMMU be proactive. Whoever is National Co-ordinator should do his or her work, and I congratulate my colleague who has been promoted from that office. He tried to work, but political interference made it difficult for him. 


Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Vice-President is supposed to deal with the cholera outbreak in Kanyama hands-on. Rain is already falling in the North-Western Province, and this is the time we need Her Honour the Vice-President’s presence there. Let us not maintain the status quo. We should do something completely different for the people of Zambia, and Her Honour the Vice-President needs to create a legacy or else, how will we remember her? The other day, when my colleagues talked about the leaders of the Independence movement, among them Dr Kaunda, Mr Nkumbula and the Wina brothers, everyone was very touched to hear how those men and women struggled to liberate this country from the rule of the whites. It is now time to liberate the people from poverty, disease and other afflictions. To achieve that, we must stop fighting and start moving in tandem. We should also agree on what to prioritise countrywide. We have given the Government the mandate to run this nation and deliver development equitably. The money the Government uses to do things is provided by us through taxes. However, currently, some constituencies are prioritised over others. That should stop. My brother who is ever looking at me (referring to the Hon. Minister of Finance) is comfortable, but I am worried about what is happening in rural areas where the poverty levels are very high.


Madam Chairperson, I repeat my plea that the Office of the Vice-President should touch every corner of the country so that all the people of Zambia can have a piece of the development cake. Today, the office should have brought statistics on what it has achieved in every area. The statistics should be on the fingertips of the officers so that we see whether this Government is working or not. 


Madam Chairperson, as Hon. Dr Kambwili said, Her Honour the Vice-President is a very innocent soul and everyone wants her to succeed. However, speaking for my constituency, I think she needs to deliver more. I want my people to see her face, and if she promised to see them next week, they would be very happy. I want the Office of the Vice-President to be supported and to support us.


I thank you, Madam.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate this Vote. I also thank Her Honour the Vice-President for the policy statement she has delivered in which she requested this House to approve the budget for the Office of the Vice-President.


Madam, indeed, we have to approve the budget for her office, and when you love somebody, it is always good to be very honest with him or her. In that regard, I adopt Hon. Dr Kambwili’s sentiments on the current occupant of the Office of the Vice-President although I have a few reservations that I will express shortly. I will debate three specific issues, namely the significance of the Vice-Presidency, resettlement, and disaster management and mitigation, in that order.


Her Honour the Vice-President plays a supervisory role over all her colleagues she sits with in the Cabinet and, especially, here in Parliament. Therefore, she is the convergence point. For instance, the Bill that lapsed today should not have lapsed if everyone had played his/her role. She is the head of Government Business in this institution when the President is not there.


Madam, the Vice-Presidency is a very powerful position, especially since the amendment of the Constitution.


Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: Before that, it was difficult for a Vice-President to take a different position from the President’s and still be in office the next day.


Mr Mutelo: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: Today, things have changed. For that reason, I encourage Her Honour the Vice-President, with whom I have shared history at personal level, to always follow her judgment when the direction the Head of State has taken is not the right one. We changed the Constitution to make it possible for the Vice-President to stand firm, even in solitude, and say his or her mind when the Government takes the wrong way without being fired for doing so. This is just a reminder, as I am sure Her Honour the Vice-President knows that no one has the power to fire her. They may threaten her, but her tenure is protected by the Constitution.


Madam, regarding resettlement, and I am happy to see the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources enter the Assembly Chamber, two weeks ago, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs talked about how we are providing a sanctuary to our colleagues who have crossed the Luapula River from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) as refugees. I want to bring it to the attention of Her Honour the Vice-President that there are many internally-displaced Zambian citizens whose resettlement is one of the central functions of the Office of the Vice-President. The internally-displaced people consist of not only those who lost employment by some unfortunate events, such as those who were laid off in mines or other economic spheres, but also those who were forcefully moved to Sichifulo to pave way for the construction of the Kariba Dam. I am sure Her Honour the Vice-President remembers as much as I do that, a long time ago, we grappled with the problem of people who were settling in Sichifulo. Until the late President, Mr Michael Sata, may his soul rest in peace, found a solution …


Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: … for them, they were being treated like aliens in their own country.


Madam Chairperson, I ask Her Honour the Vice-President and the hon. Ministers of Defence, and Lands and Natural Resources to pay particular attention to what I am about to say. Around 1970 or later, Her Honour’s late husband was a Minister. So, she knows how Mikango Barracks, a military cantonment, came to be where it is, that is, past Leopards Hill Cemetery. To remind those who were not there and those who have not studied history, the barracks was very important because many movements for the liberation of Southern Africa, such as the South West African People's Organisation (SWAPO), Zimbabwe African National Union (ZANU), Zimbabwe African People's Union (ZAPU) and African National Congress (ANC), depended on those barracks for their activities. To pave way for the construction of the barracks, the Soli people who had lived there, forty-five families or a little more, if I am not mistaken, were moved to Kabweza, which is north of the Kafue River before Chanyanya. Dr Kenneth Kaunda, in his wisdom, bought a piece of land, which was Crown land, because it is within 30 km of the railway line, from a man called Robert or Mr Paffett and resettled those people there.


Madam, the resettled people have lived in peace in the area until not so long ago when some clever chaps, sorry, that is unparliamentary, until some people who thought they were clever decided, overnight, to go through the Kafue District Council and make the people who had made it possible for an institution to be built for the public good become squatters on their own land by obtaining a court order to the effect that the land in question was Crown land, not tradition land. Each of the forty-five families that were resettled in 1972 could have had nine members on average and those people have been reproducing over time. It is now 2017, and there are about 6,000 people living in the area who are under threat of being evicted by court action. I have brought this issue to the attention of the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources and she has been very supportive, I must say. She promised to deal with the matter.


I am also soliciting the support of all hon. Members of Parliament to prevent the two to five people who have decided to use unscrupulous means to claim that land and internally displace the settlers from Kabweza, which is only 25 km from here, and I might need to declare an interest because I live in the area. I also earnestly appeal to Her Honour the Vice-President to make a political decision on this matter. Dr Kaunda is still alive. So, he can be consulted for advice. If those who are claiming the land truly deserve land like we all do, they should be given another piece of land elsewhere. This country is about 758,000,000 km2 or whatever the size is, but the land is too big for anyone to deprive people simply because they are poor.


Madam, regarding disaster management, now more than ever before, the Office of the Vice-President needs to come up with a standard definition of the term ‘disaster’ so that her job can be made as easy as it is supposed to be. We have heard many hon. Members lament the blown-off roofs of schools in their constituencies, and we have to agree whether those are disasters. No wonder, half the time, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) in the Office of the Vice-President has been overwhelmed with requests for disaster relief. With a thousand schools having their roofs blown off, the unit does not know where to begin from. My understanding is that a disaster is really supposed to be a natural calamity or an act of God, such as excess flooding. The department responsible for school building standards can help Her Honour the Vice-President by certifying works because roofs are not supposed to be blown away anyhow. How come the roofs of schools are blown off, yet the roofs of your house and mine are not? It means that there is shoddiness in the construction of school infrastructure, which is putting pressure on the Office of the Vice-President.


Mr Syakalima: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: I am doing Her Honour the Vice-President a favour by being this positive before I come to the end. Like I said, only those who love her will tell her the truth.


Madam Chairperson, there have been fire disasters in this country. So, I was shocked by the pronouncements made by Her Honour the Vice-President when City Market was gutted. I think her pronouncements that morning were very unfortunate and extremely divisive. So, I want to give her free counsel. In any normal society, the police should have asked Her Honour the Vice-President to identify those who started the fire because she seemed to know them.


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Mr Nkombo: Madam, whether my colleagues on the other side question me or not, I will still counsel Her Honour because she is my mother and she knows what I am talking about.


Mr Mutale: Question!


Mr Nkombo: She understands me very well. Some hon. Members only knew her two days ago, ...


The Chairperson: Order!


Mr Nkombo: ... but she was the guest of honour at my wedding twenty-seven years ago.


The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Nkombo!


Let me guide you.


Yes, Her Honour the Vice-President might have graced your wedding twenty-seven years ago. She may also be your mother, as she is to many other people, some here and others outside. However, for now, she is the Republican Vice-President and you will address her as such.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Chairperson: We are currently debating the Office of the Vice-President.


Please, continue.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, with the greatest respect, I accept your counsel. Although we have known each other for as long as twenty-seven years, and wined and dined together at my wedding, I will put that aside.




Mr Nkombo: I will counsel her, as the person who holds the second highest office in the land, that if words could be taken back, that was the perfect opportunity to take back those words.


Mr Mutale: Question!


Mr Nkombo: That is what I am saying.


Madam Chairperson, very surprisingly, but pleasantly so, her neighbour, the hon. Minister of Justice, impressed me. I was overwhelmed when he indicated ...


Mr Mutale: Question!


Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Madam.


The Chairperson: Please, resume your seat, hon. Minister of Justice.


Mr Lubinda resumed his seat.




Mr Nkombo: ... that if he knew who was responsible for burning down the market, he would have gone for them. Her Honour the Vice-President should take a leaf from Hon. Lubinda. That is the spirit of collective responsibility, not collective irresponsibility.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: I take my hat off to Hon. Lubinda because, although I think that he loves Her Honour the Vice-President as much as I do, he took a different position from hers at a time when the country was stressed. That is all I am emphasising. So, Her Honour the Vice-President should also be able to take a different position when the person she reports to takes a wrong turn. That is what will make her go down in the annals of history not only as the first female Vice-President of the country, but also as someone who disagreed with the person at the top.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mutale: Question!


Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, we wholeheartedly support the Vote on the Vice-President’s Office. Allow me to also echo the accolades that Hon. Dr Kambwili gave to Her Honour the Vice-President’s staff. I would be failing in my duties if I did not recognise Hon. Chalikosa, who worked in her office for a very long time, because she is also a decent person. I think she is different from many ...


Hon. Member: Chalikosa!


Nkombo: ... others on that side. She deserves my accolades.


I thank you, Madam Chairperson.


Mr Simbao: Madam Chairperson, thank you, once again. I am happy to be able to lend my voice to the debate on this Vote because of its importance.


Madam, as has already been said, the Office of the Vice-President is now elective, and that changes everything. The Presidency and the Vice-Presidency are now more in tandem, which means that the two positions are more unified than before, thereby making the Vice-Presidency as challenging and as secure as the Presidency. It is now more like the Presidency and the person who holds the position has to be more in sync with the President. Therefore, we do not expect the Vice-President to chart a different course from the one on which the President is. Further, he or she cannot lack the will power to do what is required because we know that the Presidency is the apex of Government activity and that the Office of the Vice-President is at about the same level. We now have more confidence in what the Office of the Vice-President can do.


Madam Chairperson, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) which others have talked about is a very important part of the Office of the Vice-President. We often have many difficulties, especially during the rainy season, and our immediate cries are to this office. So, I am glad that it now has more power it can wield to get the money required to address the challenges that usually arise during the season we are approaching.


Madam Chairperson, I note that the DMMU is Vote 19, not Vote 2, but I believe that it is the same Vote. Looking at allocation, I note that it has been increased compared with what it was in 2017. However, the money is still too little to be used to run the unit.


Madam Chairperson, like many people who spoke before me, I have many challenges in my constituency, Senga Hill, ...


The Chairperson: Order!


Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.





Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that I have observed that the allocation to the Office of the Vice-President has increased from K37,739,096 to K52,340,130. The allocation to the DMMU has also been increased. However, I think the increments are still inadequate for the intended programmes.


Mr Chairperson, to whom more is given, more is expected. So, due to the increments in the allocations to the Office of the Vice-President, we, the Members of Parliament, will expect a lot more from the Office of the Vice-President than ever before. In Senga Hill Constituency, there are still many river crossings that become impassable during the rainy season, thereby making it difficult for pupils to go to school. So, we hope that the office will look for more resources to attend to those minor issues, which cannot be addressed using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) alone.


Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Vice-President is now very important in this country. Therefore, we are very fortunate to have in that office a person who is respected by everyone. We are happy with her confidence and stability.


Dr Kambwili: Hear, hear!


Mr Simbao: I thank you, Hon. Dr Kambwili.




Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, we should always be very careful when electing the President and the Vice-President. We saw a President and his Vice-President differ in a neighbouring country. Such cases must not be encouraged in Zambia. The President and Her Honour the Vice-President contested the elections as a pair and the President had enough confidence in his Vice-President to pick her as his running mate out of the 16 million Zambians. So, nothing should be allowed to create tension between the two offices. The Vice-President must be prepared to stand by the President all the way in whatever the President decides to do. There should not be any form of rivalry between the offices of the President and the Vice-President. Therefore, we must encourage them to work together until the end of their term.


I thank you, Mr Chairperson.


Mrs Fundanga (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the Office of the Vice-President and the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) because I am one person in this House who recently saw what they are capable of doing. Hon. Members may remember that there was a disaster in Luapula two weeks ago. To be precise, twenty people lost their lives when a canoe capsized on Lake Bangweulu. Further, about forty houses were destroyed by a heavy storm on Chilubi Island. We are thankful because the DMMU responded very promptly. By the time I had reached Chilubi, the affected people had already been provided with tents. We are still liaising with the hon. Minister in the Vice-President’s Office, who also acted very promptly when we reported the matter. I also thank the Permanent Secretary, Mrs Yande, for her response. On behalf of the people of Chilubi, let me thank the Vice-President’s Office for her support. Those who watched what happened on television may have heard people say that they had not experienced such a disaster before and that they appreciated the aid they got from the Government. 


Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear! Ema Government aya!


Mrs Fundanga: Sir, I think that the Office of the Vice-President should be supported and that its allocations are not enough. If possible, the money allocated to the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF) should be given to the Office of the Vice-President. Chilubi is a district and a constituency, and I do not know about other districts but, in Chilubi, sometimes, we hardly know what the fund is spent on. I, therefore, request that the budget of the Office of the Vice-President be increased, which might be helpful considering that we have limited resources. 


Sir, without singling out anyone, I would like to advise my colleagues, as we further debate the budget for the Office of the Vice-President and other budgets yet to be presented, to desist from being personal. When someone who is raising very good points personalises his or her debate, people stop seeing the value of what is being said. When we start casting aspersions on other people, especially those who are not here to defend themselves, people stop seeing sense in what we are saying. So, as lawmakers, we should talk about issues rather than individuals. This advice has been given repeatedly and the practice is becoming a burden to some of us who have ears that hear because we only want to listen to debates that are issue based. Even Her Honour the Vice-President expressed this concern in her statement, and I think we should pay attention to her counsel.


Sir, we should also not try to divide and rule. I concur with my brother, Hon. Simbao, that Her Honour the Vice-President and the President are one, as they were both elected by the people of Zambia. Therefore, if Her Honour the Vice-President is doing well, the President is too. So, we cannot castigate the President, but praise the Vice-President. We should stop dividing people, and I think Her Honour the Vice-President is very uncomfortable about what we are saying.


Hon. Opposition Members: Oh!


Mrs Fundanga: Yes!


Sir, we should talk about what we want from this budget, not who we want, because the people of Zambia do not sit in their houses or comfort zones to hear us debate people. They want us to debate issues.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mrs Fundanga: The problem in this country is that the biggest industry is the talking industry.


Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!


Mrs Fundanga: No wonder, we have not developed in the last fifty-three years.


Mr Kampyongo: Akaba mayo nomba!


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mrs Fundanga: Debate issues.


Mr Ngulube: Where are those industries?


Mrs Fundanga: The talking industry has grown so fast in this country that everybody is a good talker and wants to raise issues. We should learn from people like Hon. Lubinda who, ...


Mr Livune: Hear, hear!


Mrs Fundanga: … when he was not a Minister, did not make noise.


Mr Ngulube: We do not debate ourselves.


Mrs Fundanga: I did not want to debate him, but I had to give an example.


Mr Nkombo: You are debating.


Mrs Fundanga: I am giving an example because some people are debating others.


Mr Nkombo: You are doing the same.


Mrs Fundanga: Okay, I withdraw the reference to Hon. Lubinda.




Mrs Fundanga: Hon. Members, let us be very clear about one thing–


Mr Mutelo interjected.


Mrs Fundanga: You can call me all sorts of names, but I will still tell you that if you want to be a good leader, debate issues, not people.


Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!


Mrs Fundanga: This Chamber is not the platform for defaming other people, and I know people who switch off the radio when they hear certain people debate.


Mr Nkombo: It is their right to do that.


Mrs Fundanga: I have had the privilege of listening to some hon. Members from the Opposition who are very good debaters and they debate issues. I am always eager to listen to such debaters. So, let us not take away from those who debate issues by cheapening our debates. We are here to build our nation, not destroy it. For God’s sake, there is nothing one gets for one’s children and their children from targeting another person over a budget. The best thing to do is debate issues so that we encourage our children and build this country. That way, our children’s children will be proud of us. I want to be part of a Parliament that made a difference, ...


Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!


Mrs Fundanga: … not one whose Members just castigated and fought one another. It is very embarrassing, to say the least.


I thank you, Mr Chairperson.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): I thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to briefly support the Motion on the Floor.


Mr Chairperson, since our children in schools tune in to our channel when this very important institution is in session, permit me to make a correction to the record on one aspect. The correction is important for pupils’ understanding of civics. It is not true that the position of Vice-President was created by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Administration, as claimed by Hon. Muchima. The truth is that it was there in the first post-Independence Government. The likes of Mr Kamanga and Mr Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe were Vice-Presidents in that Government.


Mr Mutelo: Prime Ministers!


Mr Kampyongo: That is not the history. Learn from me, who is giving the correct history.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!


Please, speak through the Chair and ignore the hecklers.


Mr Kampyongo: The position of Prime Minister came in much later. We know that the first Prime Minister was Mr Mainza Chona.


Mr Kalaba: They are talking about the period after 1991.


Mr Kampyongo: That is the history.


Sir, in her policy statement, Her Honour the Vice-President made very important observations, one of which hinges on my ministry, namely that of resettling former refugees. As you know, the Government has decided to locally integrate former refugees who have opted to turn Zambia into their permanent home because of the peace that prevails in this country.


Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: In the resettlement schemes under the Vice-President’s Office, we are providing pieces of land on which former refugees can start new lives, and we thank the traditional leadership in areas where we are integrating those people for their support.


Mr Chairperson, a lot has been said about the persona behind the Office of the Vice-President. Today, I am the happiest person because when we told the nation that the pair of Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu and Madam Inonge Wina was the leadership this nation needed, ...


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: … those who did not mean well doubted us. However, today, those who doubted us are in total agreement with us on the ability of this pair of leaders. That is how it should be because the leadership of this country cannot be any better than it is today.


Mr Chairperson, it is very shocking to see female leaders in some quarters fail to appreciate President Lungu’s decision to take up-scale the country’s female leadership from the ordinary level to the Presidency.


Mr Lusambo: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: In Madam Inonge Wina, we do not only have a Vice-President, but someone who is part of the Presidency ...

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: … under a mandate given by the people of Zambia. For the women of Zambia, this must be historic and a moment of pride.


Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: The womenfolk have every reason to celebrate and support the first female Vice-President of this land.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Ngulube: Ema history aya!


Mr Kampyongo: Our President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, who was chosen by the people, …


Mr Ngulube: Ema die hard aba!


Mr Kampyongo: … has made an indelible mark on the history of this country. The future generations will have to learn to live by the bar that President Edgar Chagwa Lungu has set for the women.


Mr Jere: Stand up!


Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, this caring Government has taken note of the plight of ex-miners. In that regard, I commend the ex-miners’ association executive of Mr Chewe and his colleagues for relentlessly knocking on the Government’s doors to ask for the promise that the Government gave to the ex-miners to be honoured. I must say, though, that this is not the first time people have lost employment in the mines. Further, in the past, those who lost jobs went without anyone recognising the contribution they made to the economy of this country. However, as I speak to you, this caring Government is giving the ex-miners pieces of land on title through the local authorities. I am sure Her Honour the Vice-President will touch on that.

Mr Lusambo: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: However, we know that land is not the only necessity for their economic wellbeing. So, going forward, we are looking at means of empowering them to utilise the land that has been given to them and become productive and contribute to the economy of this country. So, I appeal to them not to listen to hot air. Some people are telling them sweet things, but they cannot put anything on the table. They should remain faithful and hopeful because this Government has made promises and fulfilled them. We mean well for the former and current miners.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kampyongo: Sir, the challenges that forced the mining houses to lay off workers are well known, and they were unavoidable. However, things are now getting better and I assure the people that their Government is there for them. They should not be misled by those who do not have solutions to their problems.


Mr Lusambo: Including those who were at Luanshya Mine.


Mr Kampyongo: Where I come from, we say, ‘Ichikalilwa pansaka musumba wa bwali’.


Hon. UPND Members: Meaning?


Mr Kampyongo: It means that if someone who cannot prepare nshima tells you to go and eat with him or her, he or she does not mean well. However, if someone says that he will prepare nshima and you see mealie-meal, water and relish, you can hope for the best.




Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Vice-President is very critical to the development of this nation. I also know that the issues affecting youths have been a challenge for many years. However, this Government is doing a lot to absorb the youths into productive ventures. Her Honour the Vice-President is doing her best. As the Vice President of the nation and the party, she has capable leaders, and I assure her that those of us who are in charge of the youths will not leave that responsibility to the Government alone. As a party, we will lead the way in looking after the youths. As National Youth Chairperson for the Patriotic Front (PF), I am trying to find practical solutions to their challenges, and I can show you what we are doing.




Mr Kampyongo: We are empowering our youths practically while the youths being kept by our colleagues there (indicating the hon. UPND Members) are impoverished and always begging. Some hon. Members run away from the youths for fear of being asked for money. Why do they not provide solutions for the youths, seeing as they may not form a Government like we did? Those youths they are looking after, who have children, may starve. Therefore, our colleagues should learn from what we, on this side, are doing.




Mr Kampyongo: Sir, my dear brother from Mazabuka Central talked about Mikango Barracks although I did not get his submission clearly. Suffice it for me to say that the facility is a military cantonment and a responsible Government does not displace people without looking after them. Therefore, to create the impression that when that cantonment was created, some people were displaced is a misrepresentation of facts. I assure the people of Zambia that the Government did everything appropriately and that no one was disadvantaged. That is what we know, as a Government.


Mr Chairperson, lastly, I want to dispel the assertions that were made about Her Honour the Vice-President. I was with her the morning we got a rude shock when the news of a fire that had gutted City Market and I still remember her statement. At no point did she make divisive comments.




Mr Kampyongo: When she arrived at the scene, she was shown an article written by a person who claims to be a cadre of a party on your left which ...


Hon. UPND Members: Aah!


Mr Kampyongo: … celebrated the burning of the market and encouraged others to continue inflicting pain on the people of Zambia.


Mr Nkombo: Why did you not arrest him?


Mr Kampyongo: He is being pursued and he should not think that he is in a safe zone.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!


Avoid responding to …


Mr Kampyongo: No, Mr Chairperson.


I want to tell them that we are pursuing that character …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!


Just ignore them.


Hon. Members, the hon. Minister is responding to what some of you said. Therefore, let us listen to him attentively.


Mr Kampyongo: Sir, a character who is an economic immigrant somewhere in Europe thinks he is in a safe zone, but we have international arrangements for extraditing such characters. We are working with the Anti-Terrorism Centre and all the international security wings to pursue characters associated with atrocities, whether by comments or incitement. Her Honour the Vice-President’s statement was also a reaction to the reckless statement made by that individual at a time when people were anguished by the loss of their source of livelihoods.


Dr Kambwili: Who burnt the market?


Mr Kampyongo: We will know very soon.




Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, our colleagues think we are joking. However, we know about their schemes and we shall show them that we are in Government because the people of Zambia decided that we are the right leaders to be in charge of their affairs. So, I assure them that no one will get away with wrongdoing.


In conclusion, Sir, all the resources that have been channelled to the Office of the Vice-President, just like the Office of the President, will be prudently spent for the good of the people of Zambia.


Mr Chairperson, I thank you.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank all the hon. Members who contributed to the debate.


Sir, Hon. Dr Kambwili advocated for greater investment in resettlements so that our youths can be absorbed in agricultural activities. Indeed, the Office of the Vice-President will focus on that in 2018. It will turn some of the resettlement centres into agricultural production hubs, and that has already been planned for.


Sir, indeed, land was promised to former miners and it has been demarcated. However, hon. Members should know that the allocation of land is not done in one week or month. The surveyors have to survey the area and demarcate the land so that title deeds can be given. So, it takes a bit of time to finish the exercise. I must hasten to say that the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources has done a good job in demarcating 1,691 plots, which are ready for occupation by the ex-miners. So far, about 191 ex-miners have been allocated residential and farm plots in Chingola and Kitwe.


Sir, Hon. Mung’andu talked about disaster preparedness. Indeed, that is very important because some of the disasters can be averted if people were prepared for them in advance. I must also say that the number of washed-away bridges, and blown-off roofs in schools and rural health centres is huge. Therefore, line ministries are urged to ensure that their infrastructure is cared for very well. Inspectors should continuously inspect schools, hospitals and similar institutions so that we do not keep running into the problem of roofs being blown off. The DMMU has established a disaster loss database that captures all information on damaged infrastructure. That data indicates that K70 million will be required to rehabilitate the damaged infrastructure. That is a huge amount that the National Budget might not be able to provide in one year. However, line ministries have the obligation also to ensure that infrastructure in their ministries is in good condition.


Sir, Hon. Nkombo talked about internally displaced Zambians.


Mr Ngulube: And the wedding.


The Vice-President: The wedding is neither here nor there.




The Vice-President: Indeed, Sir, some Zambians have been internally displaced by a variety of reasons. In that regard, the Government is taking an inventory of all internally displaced people in the country to know where they are, the circumstances of their displacement and what remedies we can provide. So, I appreciate that intervention by Hon. Nkombo.


Sir, Hon. Fundanga stressed the importance of discussing issues instead of personalities. Indeed, we appreciate issued-based debates on national matters, as it is very important.


Sir, Hon. Simbao touched on the symbiosis between the President and the Vice-President. For sure, the President and the Vice-President will rise or sink together.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: That is a commitment we made to Zambians.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I ask all hon. Members to support the budget for the Office of the Vice-President.


I thank you, Sir.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Votes 01/01, 02/03, 02/04, 02/05 and 02/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


VOTE 06 – (Civil Service CommissionOffice of the President – K11,192,880).


The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, following the enactment of the Constitution Amendment Act No. 2 of 2016 and the Service Commission Act No. 10 of 2016, and the subsequent signing of the Service Commission Act Commencement Order by His Excellency the President through Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 75 of 2016, the Public Service Commission (PSC) was transformed into an independent regulatory and advisory body called the Civil Service Commission (CSC), a constitutional body mandated to provide oversight on the human resource management functions of over thirty Government ministries and provincial administrations.


Mr Chairperson, it is of utmost importance that the commission is supported as it implements the Human Resources Reform Programme, whose major component is the provision of a principal and value-based decentralised human resource management system for the Civil Service. The work of the commission is guided by the following mission statement:


“To ensure integrity, equity and professionalism in the conduct of appointments, promotions, disciplinary control and separations in the Civil Service in order to enhance delivery of quality services.”


Sir, in its continued efforts …




The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!


Let us listen.


The Vice-President: … to maintain effective and efficient service delivery, the commission undertook the following programmes in 2017:


Performance Support Sittings


Sir, the commission held performance support sittings to process all outstanding human resource cases, such as appointments, acting appointments, confirmations, promotions, retirements and disciplinary cases. The sittings were undertaken for the Ministries of Finance, Energy, and Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection.


Recruitment and Placement


Sir, the CSC enhanced the operations of five ministries, through placement of qualified human resources, following the granting of Treasury authority. The ministries are:


  1. Finance (Accountant-General’s Office);


  1. Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection;


  1. Health;


  1. Housing and Infrastructure Development;


  1. Works and Supply; and


  1. Energy.


Sensitisation Programmes on the Human Resource Reforms


Mr Chairperson, the commission spearheaded sensitisation programmes on the establishment of human resource management committees in six provinces, namely: the North-Western, Copperbelt, Central, Luapula, Muchinga and Northern provinces.




Sir, in 2017, the commission had planned to undertake support sittings in five provinces. However, it only managed to do so in two provinces due to the appointment of new office bearers, namely the Chairperson and members of the commission, who needed to be oriented and settled before undertaking any tour of duty.


Mr Chairperson, the other challenges were the depleted fleet and bad condition of vehicles, which hindered the commission from visiting more provinces. Further, in the provinces visited, the commission noted that the low calibre of human resource officers made it difficult to thoroughly prepare cases for submission to the commission. Thus, a lot of time and financial resources were spent on capacity building in interpretation and application of the Public Service handbooks on human resource management. The lack of a computerised human resource management system at both the commission and the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) continued to pose a challenge in the maintenance, referencing and retrieval of personnel information for decision-making. Further, poor record management at district level greatly affected the ability to complete all outstanding cases as planned by the commission.


Prospects for 2018


Human Resources Reforms


Sir, the commission plans to oversee the establishment of human resources management committees in all Government institutions under the CSC. The programme is of utmost importance, especially now that the Service Commission Act No. 10 of 2016 and the Service Commissions Act (Commencement) Order, 2016 were assented to by His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu.

Quality Assurance and Inspections


Mr Chairperson, with a view to improving public services delivery, the commission will intensify its co-ordination of the implementation of human resource policies in the various sectors of the Civil Service through the establishment of human resources management committees. The committees are expected to implement and provide guidance in the management of human resources across all sectors ministries. The commission will carry out quality assurance and inspections on the committees’ adherence to the principles and values of human resources management in the Civil Service. In order to ensure the accountability, efficiency and effectiveness of civil servants and other public officers, the commission will continue to operationalise and strengthen human resource management committees in Government ministries and institutions. It will also continue to implement the Public Sector Reform Programme through the human resource reforms, which will include merit-based recruitment and timely separations from service. In the same vein, the commission will collaborate with and support all service commissions to effectively implement the delegated human resource management system in the Civil Service.


Sir, to facilitate the implementation of the programmes I mentioned above, I hereby present the proposed 2018 estimates of expenditure for the CSC, whose total amount is K11,192,873 only.


Mr Chairperson, I thank you.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the budgetary allocation to the Civil Service Commission (CSC).


Sir, from the outset, I want to clearly state that I support the allocation to this important commission. In fact, the money allocated is not enough because the commission is the mirror of the Civil Service. So, if it becomes moribund, the entire Civil Service will not operate effectively. That said, I have a few observations I need to bring to the fore, starting with the issue of discipline in the Civil Service.


Mr Chairperson, we have lamented the lack of discipline among civil servants for many years in this House. Regrettably, to date, we do not see any improvement in as far as that issue is concerned. 


Mr Chairperson, if I heard Her Honour the Vice-President correctly, she said the Government has now transformed the commission into an oversight institution, thereby delegating disciplinary matters to the respective ministries. I think that is the way to go because the Civil Service Commission (CSC) was not effective in handling disciplinary issues. For example, when somebody was charged with an offence in Luanshya, the person had to wait for the commission to visit Luanshya to hear the case. Further, often, the cases take more than eight months to be disposed of.


So, sometimes, both the person charged and the one who charged him or her eventually forget about the case, then, the commission writes a callout to the charged person, and the whole thing becomes like a circus. No wonder there are many truant and undisciplined civil servants. As they say, justice delayed is justice denied. So, I think we need a lot of improvement in this area. The behaviour of some civil servants cannot be explained. Partly, it could be that some of them knew that even if they committed an offence, it was not their immediate supervisor who would decide their fate. Therefore, they did not even have respect for their supervisors. That made it very difficult to instil discipline in the Civil Service.


Sir, I always give an example of the mines, where a disciplinary case must be dealt with within forty-eight hours and any due punishment meted out. The immediate supervisor writes a complaint to the personnel department, which investigates the case and makes a determination within forty-eight hours. No wonder, miners are very disciplined employees, unlike civil servants.


Mr Chairperson, I hope that my grandfather, Mr Chasaya, whom we call ‘Police and You’, and who has been appointed to head the institution, will take sanity to that institution.


Mr Chairperson, like disciplinary cases, promotions equally take long to be processed and there is no system in the Civil Service for identifying those who deserve to be promoted. It is now wako ni wako, meaning who you know. If you do not know any highly placed person in the Civil Service, you will work in the same position until you retire. There are people with Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) degrees working as executive officers in Government while those with first degrees or even diplomas are Assistant Directors. One wonders how the promotions are done in the absence of panel assessments and charts on which the names of those who deserve promotion to certain positions are entered so that when an opportunity to promote people arises, it is just a question of checking who is next on the chart. Unfortunately, some people join the Civil Service and are made Directors within two years leaving someone who joined twenty years earlier and has all the necessary qualifications. We need to correct that because a Civil Service that does not know what it is supposed to do will not perform. I, therefore, appeal to the commission, through you and Her Honour the Vice-President, to put in place procedures for ensuring that the right people are promoted to the right positions in the right way.


Sir, the Labour and Industrial Relations Act very clearly provides that when a person acts in a position for six months, he or she must be reverted to his or her position if he or she is deemed incapable of being appointed to that position. Otherwise, he or she must be appointed to the position. However, some people have been made to act even for three years, after which the commission has declared them unsuitable to hold the positions in which they acted and pushed them back to their substantive positions. This is very embarrassing to the officers involved. Going by the law, if anybody acts in any position beyond six months, automatically that person must be appointed to the position in which he or she acted. However, in the PSMD, that is not what was happening. So, I hope that, for once, the right thing will be done so that we can motivate civil servants, who have complained for too long about the non-existence of a system for promoting workers. They just see people from other departments or institutions take up higher positions that they are also capable of taking up.


Mr Chairperson, I also urge that the CSC and many other commissions be decentralised because of the same reasons that I have stated, that is, the long time it takes to dispose of human resource cases. So, the commission needs to be represented, at least, at provincial level. The provincial offices can be liaising with the national office. In any case, Zambia has decided to decentralise governance functions. Therefore, there is no reason the CSC’s national offices in Lusaka should tour the whole country to promote, appoint and discipline people. That will not be an efficient approach because a human being can only be in one place at a time. Equally, the commissioners can never be in Mporokoso and Luanshya at the same time, and the country is too large for one group of commissioners to execute those functions.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of quality assurance is one thing we really need to talk about. By the way, we have the most educated Civil Service in the region. However, the output of that Civil Service is nothing to talk about. There is a very visible difference between the output of the Civil Service and that of the private sector. In the Civil Service, people do not put in their best because there is no quality assurance mechanism and we have to wait for one year for the commission to get anything done.


Mr Chairperson, I am extremely disappointed with what is happening in the Ministry of Health. When responding to my concerns, I would like Her Honour the Vice-President to tell us whether the Cabinet made a decision to restructure the ministry. Doctors are complaining and what is happening in the ministry is so wrong that even a child would condemn it. A number of doctors who were medical superintendents running hospitals are being removed from their stations and sent to other hospitals as general practitioners. The duty to appoint officers in the Government lies with the CSC. However, over the last one year, doctors have been taken out of their managerial or administrative positions to positions that are unacceptable to them. The doctors who have been treated that way and have been complaining include:


Doctor                                                          Hospital


John Mwewa                                                 Kitwe Central Hospital


Lackson Kasonka                                         University Teaching Hospital (UTH)


Malawo                                                         Ndola Central Hospital


George Chipulu                                             Kabwe General Hospital


Chola                                                            Kabwe Mine Hospital


Muntanga                                                      Lewanika General Hospital


Mutotoki                                                       Kasama General Hospital


Kunda                                                           Mansa General Hospital


Charles Chishimba                                         Nchanga South Hospital (removed as Medical Superintendent from Chingola and taken to Chainama Hills Hospital as a general practitioner)


Sir, you can only treat people like that for disciplinary reasons. However, these people have not committed any offence. One person who has worked in the Government for twenty-five years as an administrator was put under the supervision of someone who has worked for only four years in the ministry. If we have to do such things, let us be humane about it. Do unto others what you want others to do unto you.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kambwili: We cannot treat people like that. It is unacceptable. So, I urge the CSC to take interest in what is happening at the Ministry of Health. I have letters here that indicate who has been removed and who has been appointed by the CSC, but the Ministry of Health has transferred them internally.


Mr Chairperson, what I know is that when there is restructuring of a Government institution, the CSC and the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) must be involved. The ministry does not do this alone. So, this is a very special restructuring which I have never heard of. By the way, I am a human resource practitioner. So, I know that what is happening is unconstitutional. People must occupy the positions to which they were appointed by the CSC. Otherwise, we will have a situation in which some people will start removing from public offices those they perceive not to be their friends and putting their friends there. That cannot be allowed by a reasonable Government. So, Madam Vice-President, please, look into what is happening in the Ministry of Health and correct it.


With those few words, I support the allocation to the commission wholeheartedly.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Chairperson, in my humble view, the Civil Service Commission (CSC) has given up its responsibilities to either the politicians or the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) at Cabinet Office. We heard the commission’s mission statement, which is very good, because it talks about integrity and equity in handling the general citizenry of this country. However, what I have seen, especially between the end of 2016 and now, is that the commission has put away its rules and regulations thereby  costing the Zambian taxpayer a lot of money.


Sir, the CSC has allowed the Government to retire many civil servants from some regions of the country in national interest without advising the people who pressurised it to do that. There is also the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, which should be the custodian of the rules and regulations regarding the employment relationship in this country. However, for some reason, nobody is interested in abiding by the rules and regulations. After a Private Member’s Motion was moved on the issue, I expected the commission to come here with all details of the status of all the people who were complaining, but that did not happen. So, instead of disciplining erring officers, the Government is asking them to stay at home and get a salary for doing nothing while other people have to work to be paid. The result is that we, the taxpayers, are paying people for sitting at home because of decisions made by a few against the rules and regulations.


Mr Chairperson, under normal circumstances, the commission should be manned by the best in this country for it to manage the system properly and supervise the ministries. Ask yourselves whether the people who head the commission are the best in this country or in the Civil Service. If they are, why have they opted for the easy way out? By putting extra people on the heap and paying them, it means even the people who retired genuinely cannot be paid their money from the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF) because there is not enough money to go round. We cannot have a situation in which a commission that is supposed to define the specifications of people to be in particular positions transfer people to areas where their skills will not be used to an appropriate level. The country is losing out. Even the service delivery, which the Government wants to improve, cannot improve because the service delivery process has many new people who have to be trained, and many people who are dissatisfied because they have been taken where they should not be. 


Sir, the CSC is failing to advise the politicians because its commissioners did not get into the commission in the right way. Therefore, even the employment arrangements are not up to the required standard. You hardly see advertisements for recruitment in the Civil Service in the newspapers anymore because, maybe, people are being recruited using other means.


Mr Chairperson, when you hear people complain, you must listen or talk to them. So, this commission, even though it has been transformed, must do better. The change should not only affect the name while the bad practices continue to worsen. The commission should leave 2016 and 2017 behind, and make sure that the rules and regulations they have put in place are adhered to in recruitment, placement and promotions. In fact, were it up to me, I would have surcharged the people at the commission for retiring some people in national interest and continuing to pay them while they sit at home because there is no reason this country should carry such a heavy burden. We have at home people who should be in offices when the people in the offices should be at home. Those people were trained at a great cost. I think I have said before that some doctors have been retrenched or sent home in national interest, and the youngest, I heard, was thirty-five years old.


Mr Ngulube: Question!


Mr Mbangweta: Sir, what is happening should not continue. We still need educated people in the Civil Service. So, let us comply with the rules that we made.


With those few words, I support the proposal.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the Constitution of this Republic provides a platform for every citizen to self-actualise. It provides for every citizen the right to employment. It also provides for equal treatment of the citizens.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.





Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that every citizen of this country has the right to self-actualisation, economic empowerment and employment in the Civil Service.


Sir, the service commissions are established under Section 7(a) of the Service Commission Act No. 259 of the Laws of Zambia. It is, therefore, correct that the Civil Service Commission (CSC) acts in the name of the President. That being the case, it goes without saying that any flaw or omission the Commission makes throws mud at the name of the President when assessments are done. That the commission acts in the name of the President is inscribed in the law.


Mr Chairperson, the mandate of the commission …




The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


Mr Nkombo: Sir, the Commission’s mandate is to employ, promote and evaluate employees of the Civil Service.


Sir, the Commission has a Chairperson, a Vice-Chairperson and five other members. One hon. Member who debated here indicated that there is an absolute need to decentralise the commission because seven people cannot always get it right when they have to appraise the performance of people in the whole Civil Service. So, they need to be helped and capacitated …




The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


Hon. Members, your consultations are too loud. I do not want to name the hon. Members.


Mr Nkombo: You can name them, Sir. It is fine.


The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, please.


Mr Nkombo: Sir, since we are all in agreement that the Commission acts in the name of the President, I want this House to be reminded that in February, 2017, I moved a Private Member’s Motion in which I urged this Government to stop victimising civil servants who were deemed sympathetic to political parties other than the Patriotic Front (PF). I also urged it to stop victimising employees on ethnic grounds. I am sure hon. Members recall that. In moving the Motion, I quoted some statements, including the one made by the Head of State whilst in Lundazi in which he advised the PF in that district to not victimise Tongas because not all Tongas were members of the United Party for National Development (UPND). I am sure hon. Members recall the issues I brought out in that Motion, which was debated. However, the fact that we are passing the budget for the commission at a time when there is a perception that people who are deemed sympathetic to political parties other than the PF are being removed from their jobs under the guise of national interest is an indictment.


Sir, as I said, the commission acts in the name of the President. Therefore, I want to imagine that some of the dismissals of citizens from their jobs are equally being done in his name. Somebody made reference to a doctor who was retired in national interest at the age of twenty-nine, yet the retirement age in this country is sixty-five. That doctor has been killed because he does not have another country where he can go and look for a job. Equally killed are those who suffer from diseases in fields in which the doctor has the expertise. That is how bad it gets.


Mr Chairperson, we have a list of people who are perceived to have been removed from the Civil Service.


Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: The commission must redeem itself and stop playing the game of deceit.


Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: Its mandate is to act on behalf of the President in evaluating professionalism. Someone who debated earlier said the commission has relegated its responsibility to us, politicians. I want to put it to you that it was only with the ascension of the PF into the Government that we saw that happen. People are being removed from Public Service on ethnic and political grounds. The perception is there whether people like it or not.


Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.


The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. This will be the last I will allow for today.


Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Reluctantly, I rise on a very serious point of order on the debate by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central.


Sir, while we are all labouring to unite this nation, the hon. Member on the Floor has opted to debate in a manner that is divisive to the nation.


Sir, we all know that civil servants are not supposed to engage in partisan politics. Every responsible government, including that of the Patriotic Front (PF), which is the Ruling Party, does not have the right to politicise the Public Service. The hon. Member has lamented a lot the PF Government’s alleged removal of people from the Civil Service on ethnic grounds, which is not true. I want to make it very clear to the civil servants across the country that they should either avoid getting involved in partisan politics or retire and join us here. That is how it is.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!


Raise your point of order.


Mr Kampyongo: My point of order, Mr Chairperson, is: Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central in order to debate in such a divisive manner and to cite ethnicity as the basis on which some people have been removed from the Civil Service?


I seek your serious ruling, Sir.


The Deputy Chairperson: My simple ruling is that the hon. Member who is debating has made an allegation about the Government retiring civil servants who are perceived to belong to political parties other than the Patriotic Front (PF), and that requires proof. However, he does not have any proof. Therefore, I will not allow him to continue debating the way he was debating. So, he is not in order.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mutale: Ema Chairperson!


Mr Chabi: Ema bias!


Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. I value it greatly.


Mr Mutale: Shut up and say sorry!


Mr Nkombo: There is a danger, Sir, in poking a black mamba with a short stick.


Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: I called it a “perception”, but I will change my gear. It is true.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nkombo: It is true that people are being retired in national interest. I said that the Civil Service Commission acts in the name of the President. I want to put it to anyone who would challenge me, including the President himself, that even Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu has signed letters to retire people in national interest, and I have proof of that.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Hon. Government Members: Aah!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!


Mr Nkombo: I have the proof.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!


Mr Nkombo: I can give you the name of a lady who worked for the Zambia Air Force (ZAF).


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!


You are asking for your debate to be curtailed.




The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, resume your seat. I will not allow you to continue your debate.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Ema Speaker aba!


Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to say a few words about the Civil Service Commission (CSC).


Sir, we know that countries that have developed economically and attained high standards of living are those that have very strong public institutions. The role of the CSC, therefore, is very important for the future of this country. So, it must comprise people with the required work experience, integrity and impartiality.


Mr Chairperson, we have heard many stories, but I will not get into them. However, it is important that the recruitment, promotion and placement of officers by the CSC are based on merit. There should be no other considerations, and this is very important because if we continued on the trajectory on which we are, on which people are recruited because of their faces, names and area of origin, we would end up with a Public Service that is very weak and is unable to come up with progressive policies, to regulate the private sector ...


Mr Chabi: Ema jacket aya!


Mr Kufakwandi: ... and to make Zambia a competitive country on the global market.


Mr Chabi interjected.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Chabi!




Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Musukwa: Ema Chair!


Mr Kufakwandi: In the Civil Service of the past, the university or college graduates who joined the Public Service were sent to the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA) to learn the rules of the Civil Service. Today, that is not the case. I met a young man recently who claimed to be a forestry officer and when I asked him where he was trained, he said he had been appointed without training. That is very dangerous because we are asking people to do jobs for which they were not trained and in which they have no experience, leading to our being unable to control what is going on in a number of sectors.


Mr Chairperson, continuous training is very important for the Civil Service, and I am happy to learn that the General Orders and Financial Regulations have been reintroduced in the training curriculum for civil servants because without understanding those documents, it is very difficult for somebody to work effectively in the Civil Service.


Mr Chairperson, we have also noticed that there are people in the Public Service who do not want to become Permanent Secretaries (PSs) because they are specialised professionals. There has to be grades for such people so that they can get as much money as PSs do without becoming administrators. The CSC should provide for that.


Mr Chairperson, regarding the decentralisation drive, there is a very important issue at the district level, namely the existence of two parallel administrative structures. The first is made up of civil servants who work under the District Commissioners (DCs) while the second is made up of officers under the councils. These people are at the frontline of development efforts. Therefore, they must be competent and capable of leading the districts in implementing developmental programmes. This means that some of the best brains we have in the country should work in the districts, and that brings in the question of the actual role of DCs in the implementation of developmental programmes. The job of DCs must be confined to politics because that is what they are there for. They should not interfere with the work of civil servants, who are trained and experienced in what they do because that is retarding development in our country. The two parallel structures in the districts are fighting each other all the time.


Mr Chairperson, council officers must be a mixture of experienced civil servants and business-oriented people. The councils cannot continue to be political and social units. So, they must be transformed into economic units. However, to do that, we must first put the right people in the offices, and the CSC must play an important role in shaping and strengthening public institutions in our country. We cannot continue to have a situation in which we cannot see the face of Zambia when we walk into the offices in the ministries. We want to see the face of Zambia in the departments of our ministries. Let us tap the best talent that we have in order to make Zambia strong and competitive, and to enable public officers to deliver services to our people. Is it not embarrassing for us to have cholera in Zambia year in and year out, even now, fifty-three years after Independence? These are the signs that we are not attending to some of the needs of our people. We are attending more to the issues we want to attend to instead of attending to the needs of the people.


Sir, the CSC has to lead the way in strengthening our public services by placing people with the right qualifications in offices. It should look at qualifications and experience, not faces. That is how we can build a prosperous country.


I thank you, Sir.


Dr Kopulande (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this very important institution that provides the most critical resource for performance of Government.


Sir, only an efficient and competent Civil Service Commission (CSC) can place the best workers in Government offices to develop and implement public policies effectively for the benefit of the people of Zambia.


Mr Chairperson, the engine of the Government’s effective and efficient delivery of services to the people of Zambia is the Civil Service. While politicians may give the general policy direction, the detail of policy is worked out by the Civil Service.


Mr Chairperson, allow me to use my own experiences in the Civil Service as the basis for my debate.


Sir, I was first appointed in the Civil Service on 7th November, 1991, ...


Mr Mutale: Ema memories aya!


Dr Kopulande: … as Special Assistant to the Vice-President when the Office of the Vice-President had just been reinstituted following the return to multi-party democracy after twenty-seven years of one-party rule. At that time, it was mandatory for every newly appointed civil servant, at least, at my level, to go through an orientation on the processes, systems and procedures of the Civil Service. I was also made to go through an orientation programme on character and conduct of civil servants. I am concerned that appears not to be the case today, and that can be seen in many of the negative developments in our Civil Service. For instance, in my casual observation, there has been a breakdown of protocol. In my orientation twenty-six years ago, I was told that protocol is the essence of the Government and that the military is efficient and delivers the best service at the right time because of its observance of the order of command. Today, in the Civil Service, there is very little order of command left. As Hon. Kufakwandi has pointed out, in the olden days, civil servants were taken to the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA). Further, those who were to be promoted in the Civil Service had to sit for examinations and only when they passed were they promoted. Today, that is not the case. How I wish that we could go back to the good old days. Otherwise, we are headed to a drop in performance.


Mr Chairperson, back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, the World Bank undertook a study on why countries in South East Asia, the so-called Tigers, were performing very well economically. One of the findings of the study was that the competence and performance levels of civil servants in those countries were very high. In Japan, it is very difficult to get a position in the Civil Service because one has to be very competent, skilled and knowledgeable. The Japanese believe that public policy must be developed and implemented on the basis of knowledge and competence, not patronage. We equally need to transform our Civil Service and make it attract the best people in this country.


Mr Chairperson, this country has some of the best educated people in this region, but the Civil Service does not attract them. So, we need to make the Civil Service attractive to people who will use their sharp brains to help deliver on the aspirations of our people.


Mr Chairperson, many things seem to have slipped through our fingers because of the changes in the Civil Service. However, there is still a cadre of people in this country that can bring the Civil Service back to its feet. In that regard, allow me to propose that we engage our former Secretaries to Cabinet, such as Mr Leslie Mbula and Mr Sketchley Sachika, and Deputy Secretaries to the Cabinet like Mr Robert Mataka, to train our civil servants, at least, those at the level of PS upon appointment in processes, protocols, procedures and conduct of the Civil Service. Once the Civil Service knows its role in the public management systems of our country, even the much-talked-about corruption levels will fall. Corruption accusations have been levelled at politicians.


Mr Chairperson, when I was promoted to the position of PS and got my letter of appointment as Controlling Officer for State House and the Ministry Without Portfolio, from the hon. Minister of Finance, the letter very clearly stated that no politician was to tell me how to spend public resources.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: Where, then, is the corruption coming from? Is it from Ministers and politicians or from within the Civil Service?


Mr Chairperson, I was in my village over the past five days and returned yesterday. Today, I bought the first newspaper in five days just to see a headline about a civil servant who has been jailed for two years.


Mr Nkombo: Without hard labour.


Dr Kopulande: That is because it is the civil servants who control the resources. I do not see politicians’ role in the alleged corruption because they do not sign cheques or approve payments. Their signatures cannot be recognised anywhere in the payment system. It was my signature that had the authority to spend Government money. I do not know if, today, the hon. Minister of Finance appoints PSs as Controlling Officers and gives them a rundown of their roles like it was done in the past. I have kept the two letters written to me when I was appointed. It is important that we go back to what we used to do in the past. Once we have a strong Civil Service and Controlling Officers who know their work, there can be no corruption because we will know at what point it is being committed, and that can only be done by Controlling Officers.


Mr Chairperson, the jobs in the Civil Service are not meant for everyone. They are for appropriately and sufficiently qualified and experienced personnel to execute. Only then will we be able to deliver results.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: Mr Chairperson, only when we have the right people in the job will we be able to perform better.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: Short of that, we have a problem.


Sir, may I suggest that since the Civil Service is the engine for delivering services, it is in a position to sabotage a Government’s chances of delivering on its electoral promises. I, therefore, suggest that the tenure of senior civil servants at the level of Director or PS be tied to the political cycles of the Government so that the officers know that if a Government goes, they will go with it.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: In the United States of America (USA), the election of a new president automatically creates 4,000 vacancies to be filled by the in-coming administration ...


Dr Hamukale: Kokolapo!


Dr Kopulande: … because the civil servants go with the outgoing president even if the same political party retains power. They do not wait to be fired or reminded. Why do we not adopt the same system so that we end the misdemeanour of civil servants sabotaging an administration. Let us tie their contracts to the political cycle so that if you are appointed by President Edgar Chagwa Lungu and he is voted out, you go with him. Of course, that is unlikely to happen.


Mr Lusambo: Hear, hear!


Dr Kopulande: We must ensure collective responsibility between an administration and its Civil Service.


I thank you, Mr Chairperson.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the Vote for the Civil Service Commission (CSC).


Mr Chairperson, the CSC, working with the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), manages the human resource in the public sector. Therefore, it is a very important institution that deserves our support.


Mr Chairperson, the commission works closely with the Ministry of Health in managing the human resource in the sector. For health systems to assure universal health coverage, we must place a premium on human resource development, management and planning.


Mr Chairperson, as you may be aware, the aspirations of the country are spelt out in the Seventh National Development Plan (7th NDP), which is informed by our party manifesto. Further, sector-specific plans have been developed by various sectors. For example, the Ministry of Health has come up with the National Health Strategic Plan in which human resource development and management is an important aspect.


Sir, one of the major challenges that we needed to cure was the sub-optimal utilisation of the human capital in the sector. Doing that was a game changer for the ministry.


Mr Chairperson, to align our strategic plans or interventions, we needed to reorganise the ministry, and we made it clear that we would place a high premium on health promotion and disease prevention before we could focus on the all-important curative and rehabilitation services. We also said that we would make balanced investments in disease prevention, primary health care and curative services. That is why we had to reorganise our staff to ensure that we placed staff where they would make an impact.


Sir, in the reorganisation of any sector in line with the Government’s aspirations, there is always a movement of people.


Mr Chairperson, I want to emphasise that when there are issues that we do not understand as lawmakers, it does not cost much to go to the institution concerned and ask for an explanation. We should not turn this House into a platform for cheap political showmanship and peddling of lies to mislead the nation and pretend to be the voice of–


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!


The word ‘lies’ is unparliamentary.


Dr Chilufya: Sir, I withdraw the word ‘lies’.


Sir, we should not be the mouthpieces of wrongdoers on the Floor of the House. Some of the individuals who were mentioned deserved to be deregistered because of their malpractices. So, no one should come here with half-baked information and start castigating the Government.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, we must be serious enough to find the time to walk across to the hon. Minister and ask for the correct information on issues that interest us. I must confess that I engaged my elder brother, Hon. Dr Kambwili, after his debate. I gave him the correct information on some of the names he mentioned and he confessed that he would not have debated the way he did had I given him the information earlier and that he had looked for me prior to his debate.




Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, that is why it is important for our colleagues on the left to be present and to listen to the responses to the issues they raise. Doctors are civil servants and there are rules that govern their conduct. The vast majority of them are well-behaved, ethical and professional, and do a great job. However, there are a few queer elements we need to straighten or quarantine if we fail to do the former. All doctors are subject to the code of conduct and can be disciplined if found wanting in their conduct.


Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!


Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, one of the doctors mentioned on that list closed down a hospital a day after it had been commissioned and opened to the public, claiming that it did not have adequate equipment. Later, his superior corrected him and the facility was opened. However, when his superior went back to his office at the Provincial Headquarters, he closed the hospital again. Such people need to be disciplined.



Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, in a war, a doctor on one side will treat an injured soldier on the other side because health is a non-partisan issue. Therefore, we do not expect our doctors to exhibit political partisanship in their conduct. In this regard, I urge the political leadership in this country to stop abusing health workers to push our political agendas.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Chilufya: Sir, I also wish to state that although doctors are called by the same name, they have fields of specialisation and, to end the sub-optimal use of our human capital, we need to place them where their competencies will be relevant. For example, we cannot take a public health specialist and give him a clinical care job. We may all be called doctors, but we have different areas of specialisation. 


Mr Mwale: Mwaona manje!


Dr Chilufya: It was important for us, for instance, to strengthen leadership in our hospitals by placing doctors with the right competencies not only in management, but also in clinical practice. We also needed to place people with an understanding of health systems and public health in communities or places where they can strengthen community health.


Mr Chairperson, …


Mr Ngulube: I thank you.


Dr Chilufya: … let me bring out one significant point. We are trying to reorganise the health sector, and one issue that was raised on the Floor of this House by our colleagues is that the Ministry of Health Headquarters was full of medical doctors and that it could as well have been called Ndeke House Central Hospital. Most of the competent doctors who have been trained in the most sophisticated procedures at a great cost to the taxpayer were at the headquarters instead of putting their skills to use by providing services in hospitals. There were sixty doctors with the rarest competencies at the headquarters, yet there were no doctors in Shiwang’andu.


 Mr Chairperson, this Government believes in delivering universal access health services and, for that, we need trained hands to provide services in health facilities. Therefore, we removed the specialists from the headquarters and placed them in the facilities, …


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Chilufya: … leaving only ten out of the sixty at the headquarters. However, none of the redeployed doctors was demoted in scale or salary. If, as a consultant, a doctor’s salary scale was N, he or she continued in it. Equally, if, as a psychiatrist, one was initially …


Mr Ngulube: Like me!


Dr Chilufya: … in charge of a hospital, but was later sent to Chainama Hospital as a senior registrar or consultant, his or her scale did not change. In any case, no one is entitled to any position. We reorganised the health sector to push the human resource to the frontline where services should be provided. Yes, we transferred a senior medical superintendent from one hospital to another, for instance. What is wrong with that?


Hon. PF Members: Nothing!


Dr Chilufya: In fact, one of the reasons some people underperform is that of overstaying.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Chilufya: You cannot be entitled to continuing in the position of senior medical superintendent just because you have been in the position for twenty years. If somebody transfers you in order to improve performance, you should not run to Hon. Dr Kambwili to speak for you on the Floor of the House. For us to improve performance in the various parts of the Civil Service, one’s continuity in a position must be informed by performance.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Dr Chilufya: So, we will set targets and appraise performance, and those who will meet the targets will be replaced. That is the work of the CSC.

Mr Chairperson, the CSC works through directorates of human resource in various ministries and the ministries have the right to make human resource changes administratively and ask the commission to ratify the changes. For example, if today, we got a report that we had lost ten obstetricians in a particular district, we would administratively transfer some obstetricians from one district to another to save lives. The CSC would, then, ratify the transfers. So, there is nothing wrong with that and no one should say that we have taken over the functions of the commission. We enjoy that kind of a working relationship.


Mr Mwale: Waona manje!


Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the role of the CSC is critical to national development because it focuses on human capital, which drives the socio-economic development agenda. So, it is important to strengthen the collaboration between the Civil Service and the directorates of human resource in various ministries. That is what this Government is doing. So, I praise what the CSC is doing, that is, improving its relationship with various ministries. So, the new team at the commission deserves our support. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government of His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu will stop at nothing to create the strong human resource base …


Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!


Dr Chilufya: … needed to develop this country.


Mr Chairperson, I thank you.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa): Mr Chairperson, I thank all the hon. Members who have debated this Vote.


Sir, Hon. Dr Kambwili made reference to the lack of discipline in the Civil Service, and I would like to inform the House that is being addressed through the setting up of human resource management committees in all ministries and provinces. The committees will be operationalised in the shortest time possible. The hon. Member also debated the issue of promotions, and that is being addressed through quality assurance and inspections, which will also weed out fake qualifications so that promotions are based on merit. In this vein, I urge all Zambians to embark on personal development in keeping with international standards, as they execute their mandates.


Sir, regarding appointments, there are two systems used. One is used for administrative convenience only and may last for a longer period than six months. Acting appointments are usually made when the substantive officer is on holiday, has gone for training, is suspended or has a court case. In such cases, the acting appointment might take longer than normal. The second option, in which appointments may last up to six months only, is with a view to promoting an officer, but this may not necessarily result in a promotion because a promotion is subject to the officer performing well in the acting capacity.


My colleague, the hon. Minister of Health adequately handled the issues in the health sector that Hon. Dr Kambwili raised.


Sir, Hon. Mbangweta lamented that we do not place properly-qualified and experienced Civil Service personnel where they are needed. The Civil Service Commission (CSC) is looking into that issue and the Government has planned to form a national school of Government that will provide induction and capacity building programmes for both old and newly-appointed civil servants. The commission has also established a merit-based system that identifies officers across all departments and retains skilled human resources to fill vacancies that arise. This is the succession plan in the Civil Service.


Mr Chairperson, with regard to decentralisation of the commission, as indicated in the policy statement, the human resource management committees will play the role of the commission at provincial and ministerial levels.


Sir, Hon. Nkombo lamented the alleged victimisation of a particular tribe in the Public Service. In that regard, I would like to state that the President has the authority to retire people in the public interest.


Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!


Ms Chalikosa: This is tied to the ethical conduct expected of civil servants. If they are seen not to be conducting themselves in a manner contrary to what is expected, they can be retired in the public or national interest. In the case of the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) officer referred to, his dismissal was effected by the Defence Forces system, not the CSC.


Mr Chairperson, Hon. Dr Kopulande talked about the need to use former civil servants in passing knowledge and institutional memory on to newly-appointed civil servants. In that regard, the Government has re-established the National School of Government to orient all civil servants. The school has oriented a number of civil servants using retired, talented and experienced officers so that expertise is retained and guidance provided.


Mr Chairperson, as regards the many concerns that have been raised on the CSC, I would like to inform the House that the Government is not sitting idly, but implementing human resource reforms in order to make the Civil Service perform better in service delivery.


With those few words, I thank you, Sir.


Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!


Vote 06/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission of Zambia – K95,520,630).


The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to present the 2018 Budget for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).


Sir, Article 229 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia provides for the establishment of the ECZ with offices in the provinces and, progressively, in the districts. The commission administers the electoral process, conducts elections and referenda, registers voters, settles minor electoral disputes, regulates the conduct of voters and candidates, accredits election observers and agents, and delimits electoral boundaries. Further, the Electoral Commission Act No.25 of 2016 provides for the composition and operation of the commission while the Electoral Process Act No. 35 of 2016 provides a comprehensive process for the conduct of elections and empowers the commission to come up with electoral regulations.


Mr Chairperson, the vision statement for the ECZ is:


“To be a model electoral management body that meets the aspirations of the Zambian people”.


Sir, the commission’s mission statement is:


“An independent and autonomous constitutional body that delivers credible elections”.


Sir, the mission statement captures the commission’s purpose for the institution’s existence and provides a vision for it to strive towards. It also gives the staff of the commission a clear sense of what their organisation is all about, thereby increasing their commitment to achieving its objectives.


Sir, electoral legislation provides the framework within which the commission’s policies are made and programmes implemented to enrich and further strengthen the electoral process, thereby contributing to the enhancement of the democratic governance of the country. Furthermore, it provides a clear sense of direction and responsibility for the commission to all stakeholders in the electoral process.


Overview of 2017 Operations


Mr Chairperson, in 2017, the commission conducted countrywide post-election reviews of the last electoral cycle. These reviews focused on the successes, challenges and lessons learnt, and that will enhance the planning of the current electoral cycle and formulation of the commission’s 2016 to 2020 Strategic Plan.


Sir, 2017 saw the commission conduct a number of elections for the newly created districts and by-elections at the councillor level due to deaths of incumbents.


Budget Estimates for 2018


Mr Chairperson, the budget before the House will enable the ECZ to undertake nine programmes in 2018, which will be a watershed year for the commission because it will mark the beginning of preparations for the 2021 General Elections. The preparations will include the delimitation of electoral boundaries before the registration of voters, as prescribed in the electoral legislation. These programmes are in conformity with the commission’s mission and will be undertaken under the powers provided for in the existing Laws of Zambia.


Mr Chairperson, I urge the House to approve the commission’s budget.


Mr Chairperson, I thank you.


Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the budget of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).


Sir, after listening to what Her Honour the Vice-President has just said, …


Mr Ngulube: Seven Spirits!


Mr Mutelo: … I have no argument against what she has brought out.




Mr Mutelo: For instance, the ECZ and electoral bodies in other countries are key institutions for maintaining stable and peaceful countries.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mutelo: If the procedures of the electoral body of any country are not followed, a country risks losing its peace and the stability. If the processes and institutions are respected, there will be no problems.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, it is important for an institution that has been given the mandate to superintend over elections to have the integrity to put the nation and the interests of the people first. There could be some setbacks, but they should be minor ones because it is true that too much of anything is bad.


Mr Mutelo: Yes, there could be some unforeseen circumstances because, if the circumstances become too obvious, they become a risk to the nation.


Mr Chairperson, as I support this Vote, I ask the people tasked with the responsibility of conducting elections in all countries, Zambia included, to be above board.


Mr Ngulube: Point of order, Sir.


Mr Mutelo: Sir, the recent happenings in some neighbouring countries leave much to be desired, and we do not want to go through the experiences of some of our neighbouring countries.


Mr Musonda: Hammer!


Mr Mutelo: Sir, no one should ever take people for granted for too long.






Mr Mutelo: Sir, the commission regulates voters and candidates. In doing so, however, it should treat everyone equally. If it decided to listen to only one candidate, it could be the cause of problems in the country.


Mr Chairperson, Zambia is a peaceful nation.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mutelo: I thank you very much.

Sir, no one should risk the peace we enjoy. Pimbi, batili, chuchu, uma!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!


What do those expressions mean?


Mr Mutelo: Sir, it means that integrity should be evident in those who are given the mandate to conduct elections at any level, be they general or by-elections. Let us follow the laid-down procedures and do the right thing.


Mr Ngulube: I thank you.




Mr Mutelo: Otherwise, we will continue seeing people pack their bags to go and live somewhere after elections. They will leave this country.




Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, my heart is becoming heavy. So, let me end here. However, before I do that, I want to ask those who have ears to listen carefully and hear. Otherwise, one day, things will change.


I thank you, Mr Chairperson.




The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member has not exhausted his fifteen minutes. That must be encouraged because we have a lot of work to do. So, I hope the next speaker will take a leaf from Hon. Mutelo.


Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Mr Chairperson, I do not intend to speak for a long time.


Sir, having listened to Her Honour the Vice-President’s policy statement, I definitely support the Vote for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ).


Sir, I encourage the commission to embark on the delimitation of many constituencies in 2018.




The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Members on my right!


Ms Mwashingwele: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.


Sir, delimitation is a very important exercise, especially for the big constituencies. However, based on the districts where the exercise has recently been undertaken, I tend to feel that it has been one-sided. So, I encourage the ECZ to look at the other constituencies, such as Kasempa, Keembe, Gwembe, Itezhi-tezhi and Katuba.


Mr Muchima: They are so many.


Ms Mwashingwele: Some constituencies are too big to be managed.


Sir, when the ECZ considers the delimitation of constituencies, I think it should be sensitive to the need for proper management of the constituencies to facilitate quality service delivery. That is what we look at.


Mr Chairperson, in the context of sports, the ECZ is the equivalent of a referee. When a referee is biased, the game is spoiled for both teams. The same happens when the ECZ becomes biased. In this regard, I echo the hon. Member for Mitete’s sentiments. Indeed, the commission comprises people and, if those people do not understand their mission or deliberately choose not to do what they have been assigned to do, they mess up the whole country and we lose faith in them. So, as we give the commission this allocation, its staff should understand that they are there for the people and that the money is from the taxpayers and it is being given to them for them to do a good job for all of us.


Mr Chairperson, let me tell Her Honour the Vice-President that the people appointed to the commission should be those who understand that their job will be to serve us individually and collectively. Immediately they choose to take a biased stance, they negatively affect all of us and the reputation of our country.


Sir, like the last speaker said, we are a peaceful nation, but our peace should not be taken for granted by a commission tasked to be referees in the most important element of our democracy, namely elections. It does not matter whether it is a by-election, general election or a ward election. People put in a lot. Therefore, the commission should be above board in its work, and actually say “No” to wrong things and “Yes” to the right things.


Mr Chairperson, I have realised that there are many gaps in the commission that should be quickly filled so that we have a commission that can move this country forward. When the commission does not have suitable commissioners, the human resource that is supposed to help us in this important task is left behind. 


Sir, I support the Vote. However, I caution that the people who will be appointed to positions in the commission should be men and women of integrity.


I thank you, Sir.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Ms Chalikosa: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the debates of the hon. Members.


Sir, Hon. Mutelo talked about the need for integrity in the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). Let me put it on record that the commission invites all political players and independent observers to witness the electoral process before, during and after elections.


Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!


Ms Chalikosa: The commission has also made huge strides towards shortening the time it takes to collect and announce election results.

Sir, all good sportsmen and women should accept the results of any game because there can only be one winner and one loser. Unfortunately, when people lose, they tend to complain and cry. When there are genuine concerns, the Constitutional Court is there to adjudicate on them.


Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mwashingwele talked about delimitation of constituencies. The ECZ does that, taking into account the district boundaries because the constituencies cannot overlap between districts. So, as and when the commission deems it necessary, it will delimit some constituencies.


Sir, regarding the vacancies at the ECZ, the Government is aware of them and is in the process of filling them in the shortest time possible.


With those few words, I ask the House to adopt the budget for the ECZ.


I thank you, Sir.


Vote 05/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


VOTE 04 - (Ministry of Gender – K64, 117,950).


The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mrs Simukoko) (on behalf of the Minister of Gender (Ms Kalima)): Mr Chairperson, I welcome the opportunity to present the 2018 budget for the Ministry of Gender. In my presentation, I will outline the mandate of my ministry and highlight the major achievements during 2017. I will further bring out the challenges faced by my ministry and indicate the significant policy measures to be implemented in 2018 using the budget being presented for adoption.


Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Gender is mandated to co-ordinate and monitor the implementation of the National Gender Policy in order to attain gender equity and equality in all national development interventions. In line with the Vision 2030, the ministry envisages a nation where there is gender equality and full realisation of the potential of girls, boys, women and men for inclusive and sustainable development.


Sir, my ministry is repositioning itself by implementing multi-sectoral interventions to ensure that the incidence of gender-based violence (GBV) is reduced and gender is mainstreamed in all development initiatives in order to attend gender equity and equality targets. I must mention that the multi-sectoral interventions the ministry is pursuing are as contained in the Seventh National Development Plan (7th NDP) and the Vision 2030 in line with the global agenda.


Sir, in 2017, the nation was informed, through this august House, that my ministry would develop a robust national gender monitoring and evaluation system that would include the capturing of sectoral outcome indicators in line with the National Gender Policy, and would be linked to the National Results-Based Monitoring and Evaluation Framework under the Ministry of National Development and Planning. I am glad to inform the House that the ministry has commenced the development of the framework and is expected to complete it in December, 2017. The system will, therefore, be tested and fully functional in the first quarter of 2018. The system will help my ministry in collecting, processing and publishing timely information for decision making and formulations of evidence based interventions to end GBV and gender inequality in all sectors.


Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to inform the House that the ministry has finalised the compilation of the 2015/2016 Gender Status Report, which gives gender indicators across the sector set for monitoring gender mainstreaming in socio-economic development interventions. The report is the first to be produced in conformity with the Seventeenth Sustainable Development Goal, but the monitoring and evaluation system mentioned above will help my ministry to produce the report more frequently.


Mr Chairperson, in order to enhance mainstreaming of gender in the private and public sectors, a strategy for the implementation of the Gender Equality Seal Certification Programme is being developed and consultations with various key stakeholders are underway. The certification programme will promote gender equality in the work place and good labour practices, and strengthen the oversight role of the ministry on the private sector in gender matters.


Sir, in 2010, a strategy for engendering the Public Service was developed to ensure that all ministries consider gender aspects when retaining, training and promoting officers. The ministry, therefore, undertook a review of the strategy to assess progress, identify issues and recommend appropriate action for enhancing gender balance in the Public Service. The assessment revealed the following information on gender statistics in the Public Service, among other findings:


Salary Scale                         Percentage of Men                  Percentage of Women


Division I                                        63                                                 37


Division II                                       48                                                 42


Division III                                     50                                                 50


Mr Chairperson, in order to enhance the development and implementation of evidence based interventions for gender mainstreaming, an assessment of programmes’ and budgets’ responsiveness in six line ministries, namely Health; Lands and Natural Resources; Community Development and Social Services; General Education; and Higher Education, was commissioned in 2017 and preliminary findings indicated a fairly high level of gender mainstreaming, and gender-responsive programming and budgeting. The programme formulations and budget specifications in the ministries were largely consistent with the requirements in the respective sections of the Guidelines and Checklist for Gender-Responsive Planning and Budgeting. This is a good indication that the ministry’s efforts in mainstreaming gender are slowly yielding positive results …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


(Debate adjourned)




The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 27th October, 2017.








70. Mrs Mwansa (Nyimba) asked the Minister of Local Government:


  1. whether the Government had any plans to construct a modern market in Nyimba District;


  1. if so, when the project would commence;


  1. what the estimated cost of the project was; and


  1. what the time frame for the completion of the project was.


The Minister of Local Government (Mr Mwale): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Local Government has plans to construct a modern market in Nyimba District under the 2019/2020 Annual Work Plan (AWP).  


Mr Speaker, the estimated cost of the project will be determined when bills of quantities (BoQs) have been finalised.


Sir, the time frame for the completion of the project will be twelve months.


I thank you, Sir.




71. Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development:


  1. whether the Government had any plan to rehabilitate the following roads in Mwinilunga Parliamentary Constituency:


  1. Lumwana West/Kambimba; and


  1. Makangu/Ntambu;


  1. if so, when the plan would be implemented; and


  1. if there was no such plan, why.


The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Chitotela): Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plan to rehabilitate the Lumwana West/Kambimba and Makangu/Ntambu roads due to funding constraints. However, the two roads are earmarked for routine maintenance works, for which the procurement of the contractors will be completed before the end of 2017.


Mr Speaker, I thank you.