Wednesday, 16th July, 2025

Wednesday, 16^thJuly, 2025

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM RAFIKI CLASSICAL CHRISTIAN SCHOOL

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from Rafiki Classical Christian School in Chongwe District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

PUPILS AND TEACHERS FROM INKPOT GIRLS BOARDING SECONDARY SCHOOL

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of pupils and teachers from Inkpot Girls Boarding Secondary School in Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

CITIZENS FOR DEMOCRATIC GOVERNANCE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence, in the Public Gallery, of visitors from Citizens for Democratic Governance in Lusaka District.

On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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URGENT MATTERS WITHOUT NOTICE

MR KANDAFULA, HON. MEMBER FOR SERENJE, ON MR MTOLO, THE HON. MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, AND MR CHIKOTE, HON. MINISTER OF ENERGY, ON POWER CHALLENGES AFFECTING THE IRRIGATION OF CROPS

Mr Kandafula. (Serenje.): On an Urgent Matter without Notice, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: An Urgent Matter without Notice is raised.

Mr Kandafula: Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter without Notice is directed at the two hon. Ministers; the hon. Minister of Agriculture and the hon. Minister of Energy.

Madam Speaker: You can proceed.

Mr Kandafula: Madam Speaker, at all times, food security in the country is very important. Right now, we have problems of irrigation in Serenje and I think, in the entire country. Many farmers have planted wheat and some have planted winter maize. However, for them to have a good cycle of irrigation, they need to have electricity twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, but at times, they only get it for five or six hours, a situation that is leading to their what almost drying up. Others have even failed to plant because of the same load-shedding.

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious intervention on whether the Government has any immediate urgent measure to ensure farmers have the twenty-four-hour supply of electricity required to irrigate their wheat and winter maize fields.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much, hon. Member for Serenje.

While we appreciate the importance of the issue that you have raised, it does not qualify to be raised as an Urgent Matter without Notice. I suggest that you explore other means of bringing the matter to the attention of the responsible or respective hon. Ministers, but the matter is quite a concern.

MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER FOR MPIKA, ON MR MUCHIMA, THE HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, ON GRAND CORRUPTION IN THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): On an Urgent Matter without Notice, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: An Urgent Matter without Notice is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter without Notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Health. In his absence, I will direct it to the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker: You can proceed.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, The Ministry of Health plays a very important role in ensuring that our country retains a healthy citizenry. First and foremost, in the recent past, we have been treated to the withdraw of US$50 million by the United States of America (USA) Government citing corruption in the procurement of drugs.

Two days ago, Madam Speaker, the Auditor-General’s Report was released, and it cited grand corruption, again in the procurement of drugs where even one unregistered supplier has been cited as having been awarded a tender worth K16 million.

Madam Speaker, these issues have brought about uncertainty amongst our citizens and it is just imperative that they are updated as to what is happening at the Ministry of Health regarding grand corruption that is taking root every day, including at the Zambia Medicines and Medical Suppliers Agency (ZAMSA.)

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, I know it is nice to raise issues, but that issue was raised yesterday by the hon. Member for Lunte and it was not admitted. You are neighbours there.

Hon. Members, you are advised to pay attention when you come into the House. Instead of being on your gadgets, you must, at least, pay attention to what is happening in the House. That way, we will not lose time by raising the same issues every day.

In any event, as guided yesterday, the matter does not qualify to be raised as an Urgent Matter without Notice. Hon. Member for Mpika, find another way in which you can bring this matter to the attention of the House or even to the Committee. There is a Committee on Heath, Community Development and Social Services. It appears we are not making use of the Committees. If we have a concern, why do we not take that concern to the Committee? It can undertake a study and find out exactly what is happening. So, your matter is not admissible.

MR MUTALE, HON. MEMBER FOR CHITAMBO, ON MR TAYALI, THE HON. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND LOGISTICS, ON ZAMBIA AIRWAYS

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, on an Urgent Matter without Notice.

Madam Speaker: An Urgent Matter without Notice is raised.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, my Urgent Matter without Notice is directed at the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics.

Madam Speaker: You can proceed.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, we have got a national carrier called Zambia Airways. Flying from Lusaka to South Africa takes one hour thirty minutes or one hour forty-five minutes, if you are using other airlines. Our Zambia Airways takes two hours thirty minutes to get into South Africa. On my way back from South Africa, the flight was four hours thirty minutes.

Madam Speaker, on that flight, we were very quiet, but we enquired why the flight was taking so long. We were told that actually, we were flying against the wind and that the aircraft was not okay. The reason I am raising this matter is that I want the hon. Minister to assure the Zambian people who use Zambia Airways if these aircrafts are safe and also inform the Zambians when last these aircrafts were serviced because this is a danger and one cannot be airborne and be worried about one’s safety.

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Madam Speaker: On a lighter note, what were you carrying, hon. Member for Chitambo, for you to take four hours?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Anyway, on a serious note, hon. Member for Chitambo, find another way to raise the matter. Of course, it is important that we know the airworthiness of the planes that we get on. However, find another way to raise that issue because it does not qualify to be raised as an Urgent Matter without Notice.

Thank you very much.

We make progress.

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order on whom? What is the point of order, hon. Member for Mkushi South?

Mr Chisopa: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, healthcare in the nation is very important.

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order, hon. Member? We have a lot of work before us. Let us not squander time unnecessarily.

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, the point of order is on the Leader of Government Business in the House.

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order? What Standing Order has been breached?

Mr Chisopa: Madam Speaker, the point of order is about the forensic report, which we have read in the media.

Madam Speaker, healthcare is very important. The President of the Republic of Zambia instituted an audit of the supply chain of medication in the country –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mkushi South!

I do not want to appear like I am curtailing or stopping hon. Members raising issues. Hon. Member for Mkushi South, you were in the House yesterday, and that issue was raised. That audit was not conducted by the Auditor-General. I think that the issue was raised by the hon. Member for Lunte, who asked why it had not been brought before this House. First of all, the audit has been reported in the papers. So, why are we raising a point of order? The Government is dealing with it. What Standing Order has been breached on the Floor of the House, that you can raise a point of order on? The processes that you are talking about are happening outside. I think that it was only yesterday that I saw a press statement addressing the same issues. So, hon. Member for Mkushi South, please, let us not squander time unnecessarily.

Let us make progress.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWERS

LOAN DEDUCTIONS ON CIVIL SERVANTS’ PAYSLIPS

377. Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-Tezhi) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

whether the Government is aware that some civil servants, especially teachers and health workers, have been experiencing loan deductions on their payslips for loans they did not obtain;
if so, what immediate measures the Government is taking to curb the illegality; and
what measures the Government is taking to help the workers recover their money.

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chipoka Mulenga) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Musokotwane)): Madam Speaker, the Government is aware that some civil servants have been experiencing loan deductions on their payslips for loans they did not obtain. This is particularly evident with microfinance organisations that offer loans online without proper internal controls to validate the applicant's and employee's failure to safeguard their payslips and personal documents from potential fraudsters or scammers.

Madam Speaker, some of the immediate measures that have been put in place include the following:

employees have been advised to report such incidents to law enforcement agencies,
microfinance organisations offering online loans to Government employees have been guided to put in place stringent internal control measures to validate applicants for loans, and
the Government is in the process of decentralising the inputs for loans given by microfinance lenders to ministries, provinces, and agencies to enhance verification and validation processes.

Madam Speaker, where an illegal loan deduction has been ascertained, the Government has always compelled the microfinance organisation to refund the affected Government employees immediately. In some cases, the Government has reprimanded such institutions by completely revoking their deduction codes from the payroll.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mutinta: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response he has given.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has mentioned that the Government is aware of the illegality in existence and the cases. Is he able to establish how many workers are affected, just to demonstrate that the Government is concerned about the issue? Does he have such statistics?

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Yes, Madam Speaker. On a monthly basis, between fifteen and twenty-five employees are affected by the issue.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the Acting hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has basically confirmed that an illegality has been ongoing in payroll deductions. Now, a payroll-based loan requires approval from the institution paying the loan. If civil servants have illegal loan deductions on their salaries, it means that someone within the Government approved the deduction of monies from salaries by the financial institution or the bank. That is what a payroll-based loan is. Someone approved the transaction. I want to find out from the Acting hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning which Government official or Government department approved the payroll-based loans when the actual workers did not process any applications for the loans?

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kamfinsa for that good question.

Madam Speaker, such issues have existed since the inception of online applications for loans. That is why in the third part of my response, I said that we have revoked some loan codes from some financial institutions. Some fraudsters are collecting peoples’ pay statement particulars and applying for loans. When they apply, the lending office has the right to engage the employee’s institution to verify whether the person who has applied for a loan really comes from the institution before disbursing the loan. That is the reason the Ministry of Finance and National Planning mandates or compels lending institutions to pay the employees who have suffered a loss because of fraud. Lenders have the responsibility to verify with an employee’s institution before they disburse loans. However, there is a gap as they have not been doing it. So, when we find a situation like this, we compel the lender to pay back the money it has deducted.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Lundazi, to ask a supplementary question on this issue, which has given civil servants many challenges.

Madam Speaker, civil servants already get small amounts of money. So, any issue is really an inconvenience to them. Civil servants are not only suffering because of loans, but also the Zambia State Insurance Corporation (ZSIC), which they have not made any agreement with but makes deductions from their salaries. Since most civil servants are in rural and remote areas, and the corrections are usually made centrally, what arrangements is the ministry going to make so that our people in Lundazi, Chama, Chasefu and other areas, who are suffering because of those deductions, can be assisted? Those companies should stop deducting. Maybe, the ministry should just command them to stop deducting, especially since they inconvenience civil servants.

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I will refer to my answer to part (b) of the question. I think, this will incorporate the response that the hon. Member for Kamfinsa needed.

Madam Speaker, we were clear. We are alive to the reality in which fraudsters take pay statements and particulars and use them to apply for loans online. If the application is not verified, people lose money. The institution that lends money will pay the fraudsters while the particulars of the employee reflect, and that employee suffers the losses. Since the process is being centrally managed, as I stated earlier, the Government, in response, is in the process of decentralising the input for loans given by microfinance lenders to the ministries. We are rolling this out to the provinces and spending agencies to enhance the verification and validation processes. For those who are in Chasefu, for example, we are taking the process into the districts, from Lusaka, to the places they operate from so that verifications can be done there. All that is pending are instructions from the Office of the Secretary of the Treasury, and it will be done as soon as possible to avoid such inconveniences that arise.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity you have given me to ask a supplementary question.

Madam Speaker, some microfinance institutions want to reap where they did not sow. The hon. Minister has indicated that where it has been established that the institutions effected illegal deductions, they will be asked to refund the money. Apart from that, what other punitive measures is the ministry planning to effect to ensure that we avoid this trend, so that those unscrupulous individuals can stop what they are doing? Are there other punitive measures to deter would-be offenders?

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, maybe, the hon. Member did not pay particular attention to the response to part (c) of the question. It is not only reimbursements that the ministry asks for. The ministry also revokes their operating codes as financial institutions. I will read the third part of my answer for clarity's sake.

Madam Speaker, where an illegal loan deduction has been ascertained, the Government has always compelled the microfinance institutions to immediately refund the affected Government employees. In some cases, the Government has reprimanded such institutions by completely revoking their deduction codes from the payroll. When the ministry does that, the financial institution cannot operate or do business with the Government. That is a punitive measure. There was a case where we revoked one. The deductions happened twice, and the ministry had been engaging the institution to start verifying with the ministries where our employees are based. If it is done twice, then it is negligence. So, we revoke some financial institutions’ operating codes so that they do not get to operate.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: I do not know whether the hon. Member for Chama North was asking if those people are prosecuted or something like that.

Mr Mtayachalo indicated assent.

Madam Speaker: I think that was where the question was heading; whether any prosecution is undertaken.

Mr Chipoka Mulenga indicated dissent.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Itezhi-Tezhi, do you have any other questions?

Mr Mutinta indicated dissent.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, we have a lot of work on the Order Paper. We need to make progress. So, let us move.

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PRIVATE MEMBER’S MOTION

MOTION

ESTABLISH A YOUTH AND WOMEN'S DEPARTMENT UNDER THE CITIZENS ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT COMMISSION

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to establish a youth and women's department under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) in order to provide easy access to empowerment funds by youths and women.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala rose, then, immediately resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member even if you are retired.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, this is an important and, of course, non-controversial Motion.

Madam Speaker, in the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act, the following terms are defined:

“‘empowerment’ means an integrated, broad-based and multi-faceted strategy aimed at substantially increasing meaningful participation of targeted citizens, citizen-empowered companies, citizen-influenced companies and citizen-owned enterprises in the economy [while also working to reduce] income inequalities.

“‘targeted citizen’ means [an individual or group of individuals] who is or has been marginalised or disadvantaged and whose access to economic resources and development capacity has been constrained due to various factors including race, sex, educational background, status and disability.”

Madam Speaker, according to the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), youths in Zambia, specifically those aged between fifteen and thirty-five, constitute 26.7 per cent of the population. They are recognised as Zambia’s most critical untapped resource, but have the highest unemployment rate at 67 per cent.

Madam Speaker, according to the World Bank’s 2023 Zambia Gender Assessment, women’s participation in commerce, trade and industry remains relatively low. In the mining sector, for example, women’s participation stands at 7.8 per cent compared to 92.2 per cent for men, while 29.4 per cent of women participate in the manufacturing sector compared to 70.6 per cent of men. However, more than 70 per cent of informal cross-border traders in Zambia are women, who rely heavily on small-scale cross-border trade for their livelihoods. The low participation is due to a lack of funds. The existence of the CEEC has played a role, however, not to the expectations of the people of Zambia, especially women and youths. Therefore, this Motion seeks to have a fund that is biased towards women and youths. Some women-led companies usually get opportunities to supply to the mines or the Government, for instance, but have nowhere to find the money to participate in such contracts, and the same applies to the youths. That is the reason this Motion is urging the Government to have a department that will oversee a fund dedicated to women and the youths. In fact, it is in accordance with one of the nine pillars of the CEEC, which is equality.

Women and youths are being marginalised in that regard. Usually, funds from the CEEC are only accessed by those who are already privileged, instead of people in Mpika, Kapoto, Mtendere or Kafue. The underprivileged are not able to get funds from the commission for their businesses, particularly women and youths. Therefore, this Motion is suggesting that the Government should create a well co-ordinated department under the CEEC that will run empowerment programmes for women and youths. That will help reduce the high unemployment rate and discourage women from engaging in activities that reduce their dignity. The empowerment programmes can help provide incomes for households run by women and youths because they will have access to capital from the CEEC.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Fube: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chilubi an opportunity to add their voice to this very important Motion. Firstly, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Mpika for ably moving ta very good Motion, which is non-controversial.

Madam Speaker, the creation of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) was well-intended and, initially, it was responding, among other things, to the factors that motivated us to get Independence. You may recall that before the creation of the CEEC in 2006, the Government of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) made attempts to develop empowerment programmes for the underprivileged population. Among the attempts were the Mulungushi Reforms, the Matero Reforms and the popular Watershed Speech of 1975 by Dr Kenneth Kaunda. Those reforms were meant to empower Zambians, especially those who did not have access to finances.

Madam Speaker, looking back, we realise that at Independence, Zambia had about 3.5 million people. At that time, more than 500,000 people were in formal employment, despite the economy doing quite fine then. When we look at the statistics of 2007, which is about forty-seven years after Independence, we find that we still have the same statistic of slightly more than 500,000 people being in formal employment. That means that the formal employment sector has not been growing. The situation was made worse with the privatisation programme, which deprived Zambia of the required manpower or workforce, thereby affecting the supply of needs at the household level.

Madam Speaker, given that scenario, we now have an informal sector that has to absorb the economic participation of many Zambians. The informal sector is crowded with small and medium enterprises (SMEs) that are failing to effectively participate in the economy due to lack of finances. That is why, today, we are discussing the empowerment of two groups; women and youths. Those two groups share a common vulnerability in terms of economic empowerment. When women and youths are deprived of empowerment, we cannot talk about economic stability.

Madam Speaker, what will empowerment of women and youths do? First of all, it will widen the tax base. Just a few days ago, we were talking about collection of taxes. From the discussion, one could tell that we are not collecting enough taxes because the participation of Zambians in the economy is very low. I want to emphasise that when I say Zambians, I am not only talking about black Zambian people.

Madam Speaker, when the Citizens Economic Empowerment Bill was passed by this House, which you are presiding over now, it was envisaged that Zambians would participate in, at least, 25 per cent of the economy. That was the vision for creating the CEEC. To date, that vision has not been realised. Why has it not been realised? It is because we rushed the creation of the CEEC and, as a result, the implementation of its programmes has not benefited the majority of the population.

Madam Speaker, we copied the concept of an empowerment commission from the Kenyan, South African and Malaysian models. Out of those three models, only the Malaysian model has achieved its objective. The South African and Kenyan models have just created a class of few rich citizens. The youths in the age group of fifteen to thirty-five years and women have not been taken on board. A similar thing has happened to the Zambian model. It has just created the cloning of small capitalists, who have access to Government contracts, leaving out women and youths. As a result, many women and youths are not participating in the economy.

Madam Speaker, Zambia is endowed with a lot of natural resources. Therefore, more than 52 per cent of the population should participate in the use of those natural resources, including young people, who make up a good percentage of the citizenry. At the moment, we are talking about gold discoveries, but Zambians are only picking the crumbs that are falling from the tables of the fat cats.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, that is because they do not have the ‘muscle’ to participate in the economy. They lack entrepreneurial or business skills and finances.

Madam Speaker, we want to transform from a negative zone to a positive zone. The Motion is calling for transformation from talking and consumption to action and production.

Laughter

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, that can only be done by ensuring that a particular department is created for the benefit of women and youths. The fact that we need to place a premium on the economic participation of our citizens, the majority of whom are women and youths, cannot be argued. When we do that, what is the benefit? Firstly, it will lead to political stability. Youths will stop turning into junkies and insulting politicians who are just here saying, “Ha, ha, ha!” I think the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts cannot be one of those who would say, “Ha!” to this Motion because of the frustrations out there. We have a lot of youths who have gone to colleges, but they are still sitting at home due to lack of empowerment.

This is an avenue that is meant to cushion this particular population. Once the department is created, even the problems that we seem to be having, where we are reacting to the Social Cash Transfer and the temporary Cash for Work Programmes will be a thing of the past because people will be empowered in a more meaningful way.

Madam Speaker, I am calling for the meaningful participation of citizens.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, with those few words, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: Thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

There is a lot of chatting going on. Can you tone down, please.

Mr Kapyanga (Pointed at Mr Ngoma): You are making noise.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mpika!

You know what you are doing is in breach of the Standing Orders. Do you have your Standing Orders there? Hon. Member for Mpika, can you have your Standing Orders with you and read Standing Order No. 214(g) and (h). Please, take the Floor and read the Standing Order.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Read Standing Order No. 214(2)(g) and (h).

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 214(2)(g) and (h) says;

“(g) a Member shall listen in silence to the debates in the House; and

(h) a Member shall not obstruct, interrupt proceedings or make

disruptive running commentaries when another Member is

speaking;”

Madam Speaker: Now, proceed to read Standing Order No. 214(3).

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I cannot find it properly, and I apologise for saying that the hon. Member of Parliament for Lumezi was making noise. I apologise.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Mpika, please, read Standing Order No. 214(3).

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 214(3) says;

“(3) A Member who breaches a rule of etiquette may be sent out of the

House for one Sitting day.”

Madam Speaker: So, you have stated your own punishment. Please, can you leave the House for the day. You will join us when you have learnt more about the Standing Orders. You are excused from today's sitting.

Mr Kapyanga started walking towards the Chamber exit. Hon. PF Members: The Motion!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu SC.: The Motion will lapse.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Anyway, it is okay, he apologised.

Mr Kapyanga resumed his seat.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order! So, I will use my discretion to allow the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika to be in the House. However, hon. Members, please, take note by observing our own Standing Orders because we are the ones who approved these Standing Orders.

Hon Member for Kamfinsa, you may continue.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika for bringing this proposal to Parliament today. May I thank my brother from Chilubi for ably seconding the proposal.

Madam Speaker, this is one of those Motions that do not even require a lot of deliberation in the context that the Motion is speaking to the structure of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC). From a structural point of view, I do not think that this is a very complicated Motion. What the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika is saying is that we have an institution called the CEEC, which currently has a structure. Based on the way the CEEC structure has been designed, the mover and the seconder have observed that there is no specific agenda within the structure that speaks to a department that would dedicate its work to empowering women and the youth.

Madam Speaker, what the CEEC currently does is that it will run an advertisement and then receive applications from different stakeholders. For instance, it will run an advertisement on aquaculture and everyone will apply for funding in that sector. The commission will run an advertisement for booster loans, which have been given by the ministry and everyone will apply for those particular loans. There is no dedicated assignment that is given to a department, one that will work from Monday to Friday to specifically deal with issues of the youths and the women. So, the Motion is basically calling for the creation of a department to handle specific empowerment programmes. The Motion is basically saying that we are not changing the mandate of the CEEC because that is already in the law. The mandate of the CEEC is to ensure that all our constituencies have programmes of empowerment. That is the role of the CEEC.

However, an observation has been made that we can actually make this institution even more effective. We can actually make it more relevant to programmes of the youths and the women, and that is what the Motion is saying. It is saying that within the structure of the CEEC, a department must be created. What will be the role of that department? The role of that department, dear hon. Colleagues, is basically to deal with programmes of the youths and the women.

Madam Speaker, it is important to put it on record that currently, there are programmes to deal with the youths and the women dotted in so many ministries. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts has empowerment programmes the mover of the Motion is saying why can we not have these activities managed by a dedicated department because clearly, what we want after a certain period of time are outcomes.

Madam Speaker, are we measuring the impact of these programmes which the Government is running through this initiative? We are not only going to disburse the money to the youth and the women, we are also going to give an assignment to this department to undertake what is called monitoring and evaluation (M&E). This means that the department that is being proposed to be created should also have M&E tools; tools that it will use to measure the progress. For example, how many youth and women in Kamfinsa Constituency are we actually empowering and equipping with the skills to enable them to utilise the empowerment funds? That is what the mover is saying. The mover is saying that we know there are already duties that are dotted around the Government departments, but why not have a dedicated department under the only institution? Legally speaking, there is only one institution that the Acts of Parliament recognise as one with the mandate to handle empowerment funds. I was not here in 2006 when this Parliament passed the law called The Citizens Economic Empowerment Act. If we read that law, we see that the mandate is very clear. So, the mover and the seconder are basically saying, further to the work that we have done so far, and the many programmes that the Government is executing to empower women and youth, why not have a dedicated department?

Madam Speaker, from where I stand, I believe that even the ministry's opinion is that this is not a complicated proposal. I was not going to support this proposal if I knew that by creating a department for programmes for the youth and women, we are going to create some disruption in the particular empowerment programmes. I do not see any disruption that will be created if today, we decided, through this platform, that the proposal from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika is supported. The proposal, for those who may not be aware, is that we simply want to deal with structural issues. Here is an institution, but is its structure sitting well? How can we enhance the structure of the CEEC? Let us create a department specifically to deal with programmes for the youth and women.

Madam Speaker, that is what I am supporting today, and I hope that all who are yet to debate will speak to the issue of how to enhance the empowerment programmes for women and youth. Once again, on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa, I support the proposal for the creation of a department under the CEEC.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, this is a very good Motion, and I hope that hon. Members on your left and right will not look at it as political. A good number of youths across the country, especially those in rural areas, are mostly deprived. So, all successive Governments have tried the idea of youth empowerment. Today, if we said that there is no money dedicated to youths, it would not be true, because the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts and the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) are disbursing money to youths. However, the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, under which the CEEC falls, has a problem. For example, if a thirty-two-year-old youth applied for a loan today, by the time he would be given the money, he would be thirty-six, thirty-seven or thirty-eight years old. That means that the essence of empowering a youth is neither here nor there. All of us here know that the department responsible for disbursing loans is underfunded. If you asked the hon. Minister seated there, he would say that they do not have enough money to give youths out there.

Madam Speaker, I do not agree with my hon. Colleagues on the creation of the department we are talking about. We parliamentarians should not underestimate the power of the loan component for the youth which is under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). That money is dedicated to the youth. All of us here know the number of youths who have benefited from that money, but how many of them have come back and testified that their projects are successful after they received the loans? So, I wish to tell the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development that even though the ministry is empowering youths, women, and the elderly, it needs to ensure that the people who receive the loans are equipped with entrepreneurial skills. All the empowerment programmes that the Government provides lack the aspect of entrepreneurial skills training.

Madam Speaker, the problem we have is that people look at the CEEC as a political tool to impress those who support a certain political party. If you asked the hon. Minister seated there about the people who owe the CEEC, you would find that they come from our ranks of former hon. Ministers, Permanent Secretaries (PSs), or those who were powerful in the previous Government. It is the same in the current Government. Let me give a practical example of my constituency, where a very viable project was approved at the district and provincial levels and the beneficiary was informed. However, four years down the line, the project has not been funded. The youth who applied for funding for the project, which was about irrigation farming, has become an adult. At the time he applied, he was thirty-four years old, meaning that he was a youth. Now, he is thirty-seven, and the money has not been sent to the district.

Madam Speaker, here is the problem. If we create the proposed department, I suggest it should be decentralised. If the hon. Members on the right say yes to the Motion, my prayer is that the department should be decentralised because we need to get all the money from the CDF. Okay, it can remain where it is, but it should be administered by the CEEC so that people can learn how to pay back. We need to be careful. The Government has given loans to youths in last three years, but how many of them have paid back? I can testify that the youths who got loans have come back to ask for more money. So, what I am saying is that, if we are going to have a department to provide loans to youths and women at the CEEC, we need to educate and empower them with skills. If we fail to do that, even if we create that department, the money will go to waste, and that is the truth. I know that we may argue politically, but the truth of the matter is that we need to empower youths with entrepreneurial skills. In fact, if I had the power, I would suspend youth empowerment programmes until youths are educated on management of funds. We would distribute the funds after youths had been educated.

Madam Speaker, now let me mention where the Government should spend its money. The youth in Kalingalinga and the township behind Parliament who weld are the ones who need empowerment funds. The youths at Nyimba Market are the people who need empowerment funds from CEEC because they have already proved that they can make door frames. They have already proved that they can make wheelbarrows. This country imports wheelbarrows, shovels and hoes when we have people in Kalingalinga who can make such tools. What are those youths lacking? They lack empowerment funds. The empowerment funds are practically given to politically inclined people. That should come to an end.

Madam Speaker, what am I saying? I am saying that if the Motion we are discussing passes today, let us first empower people who are already making things, not those imagining. Some people can come up with proper business plans, but execution is not possible. However, people who are already doing the job have had their applications rejected because they cannot write properly.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, let me begin by saying that I do not support the Motion, and that is not politically inclined. I will give a factual statement of my reasons.

Madam Speaker, even on the Floor of the House, repetitions are not allowed. You cannot repeat yourself over and over again. Things that are monotonous are not allowed. I do not support the Motion because mechanisms are already in place to support youths, and I am going to state them so that everyone can understand why I do not support the Motion.

Madam Speaker, under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), we have a 20 per cent component that is specifically targeted at the youths and women. It does not end there. We also have another 20 per cent component of the CDF for the bursary and skills targeted at youths. The CDF is currently K36.1 million, and 40 per cent of that amount goes to youths and women, because the Government is very concerned about curing the vulnerability of women and youths. That 40 per cent is about K14.440 million for each constituency. When that is multiplied by the constituencies we have, the money is in trillions of Kwacha. We are trying to support the same youths. Under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), we have the Marketeers Booster Loan targeted at women to cure the vulnerability that women have.

Madam Speaker, let me talk about the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts. Let me begin by saying that the National Youth Policy expired in 2015 and this is when the Government is working on another National Youth Policy.

However, when it comes to programmes that are under the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, I wonder if hon. Members have taken the time to visit the ministry so that they can appreciate how much is available for the youths. For example, the national youth scheme supports youths, and women are also included, to access grants between K500 and K5,000. The youth-in-transport initiative has benefited the youths tankers. I think, most of us have seen the hon. Minister going around constituencies, and empowering our youths with motorcycles.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: Madam Speaker, youths can also access taxi and bus schemes. The fund is dedicated to our youths to ensure that we cure the vulnerability. As Members of Parliament, let us ensure that we visit ministries so that we can appreciate what is being done for the youths. Further, the ministry has more than 40,000 ha of land dedicated to our youths, which also includes women, under the youth resettlement scheme. How much support is available?

Madam Speaker, the youths are 27.8 per cent of the population, if I have the statistics right. However, there are also other people, who are not women or youths, who are also vulnerable. Many programmes exist, unless this House says that every ministry should have a dedicated department that deals with youth programmes. There is even a director in charge of youths in the ministry. We have a dedicated department. So, through the ministry, one can submit a proposal, for example, to open a salon, and the ministry will provide funding. The reason we are debating this Motion today, I think, is that people have not taken the time to understand the number of programmes that are available to the youths.

Madam Speaker, I speak with passion because I am a member of the Youth Caucus, as a senior youth.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: We have taken time to understand. Madam Speaker, one can see this Government’s dedication to the youths. That is why this Motion does not sit well with me. One can see how this Government is empowering the youths with skills. What are we trying to cure? We are trying to pass on skills to the youths. The moment youths acquire a skill, they can also access the available loans. Grants are also available so that when our youths have the skills they can, for example, venture into a welding business. The youths in Kalingalinga have the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which is available in their respective constituencies. That is to ensure that they can create employment as well. Even under the same Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), the youths and women are discriminated against. They have opportunities to apply and get funding just like any other Zambians.

Madam Speaker, I think, this Motion does not sit well because the Government has already made many buses, for example, available that are meant to empower our youths. We cannot, again, talk about the same youths we have empowered. In fact, many are the times that the money meant for skills and development has been diverted because we fail to use it. Sometimes, we fail to spend the money that is meant for youths and skills in various constituencies. We actually have to redirect the money, and ask for authority from the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to use it on desks or other things. That speaks to how much resources we have in our various constituencies.

Madam Speaker, as much as we understand the importance of the youths and also for them to drive the economy, many programmes have been listed that are available for them, which is why I feel that this Motion does not sit well. With that being said, I do not support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, the Government is already doing many things to support the youths. I think, this is a brought-in-dead (BID) Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to add a few words to the debate on this important Motion that is on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, may I take this opportunity to thank the mover of this Motion, Hon. Kapyanga and the seconder, Hon. Fube.

Madam Speaker, this is a progressive and non-controversial Motion. Therefore, I expect our hon. Colleagues on the right to support such progressive clauses. The Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) was created by an Act of Parliament No. 9 of 2006 under the Mwanawasa Government. It was meant to empower the people of Zambia so that they could take control of their economic agenda rather than relying mostly on foreign investors. The Bemba people say “Imiti ikula empanga”, meaning that the young people are the future leaders. I believe that if the CEEC can have a department to deal specifically with our young people and women, they would be serviced first-hand, unlike the way it is at the moment. We are alive to the fact that women and youths are the most disadvantaged groups, even in the House, there are few women and youths because they do not have the resources. It is the older people who always champion things. It is like that because young people and women do not have the much-needed resources.

Madam Speaker, apart from creating the department for youths and women, I would like the CEEC to be decentralised. Currently, it is just at the provincial level. So, it is extremely difficult for officers to move from the provincial level to the district level. No wonder even the number of defaulters is high, because there is no close supervision. If we decentralise the organisation, I am confident that most of the businesses will flourish.

Madam Speaker, I also just want to echo what my brother, Hon. Menyani Zulu, mentioned. Youths can apply for a loan from the CEEC, but it takes three to four years for them to be given that loan. At the time they applied, maybe, the United States (US) Dollar to Kwacha exchange rate was $1 to K20, and they wanted to import certain machinery. By the time the CEEC disburses the funds, the US Dollar rate would have increased to $1 to K28, yet the organisation will disburse the money without taking into account the depreciation of the Kwacha. How does one expect such loans to perform? That is where the challenge is. Our young people and women cannot manage to service some of these loans.

Madam Speaker, I strongly believe that while we can empower our young people and women, we have to do more. We need financial literacy. We have many windows of opportunity, as the other debater said, for our youths and women, but why are they not working out? We must go back to the drawing board. We can have programmes at the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, and the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, but why do most of them not have a big impact? Before the young people can be given the money, the ministries must ensure that they are educated on how to run businesses. In Zambia, we just give out loans without any financial literacy. That is why even the loans under the constituency have failed.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, I want to say that I support this Motion because it is meant to help the Government. Currently, many youths are involved in all sorts of vices because of having nothing to do. There is a notion out there that the Government can employ everyone. It is not possible. The Government cannot employ everyone in the country. That is why the private sector plays a key role in the development of any country.

With those few remarks, Madam Speaker, I fully support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the Motion that is on the Floor of the House, which was ably moved by the hon. Member for Mpika, who recently survived a send-off. I want to congratulate him for surviving that send-off following his apology.

Madam Speaker, I oppose the Motion that is on the Floor of the House for obvious reasons. While the Motion’s wording sounds very attractive to youths out there listening to this debate, it is not the methodical way of doing things. We do not just go out there anyhow and create departments in institutions without a strategy. Any structure that is created follows a particular strategy. The mover of the Motion fell short of explaining the national strategy of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC). I doubt if he has even read it because if he has, it would have given him the objectives on how the CEEC achieves its objectives. It is said in management that structure follows strategy. What he is proposing is a new structure, which would alter the CEEC’s strategy. Is what is being proposed in tandem with the structure that is in place now? The answer is no. So, our hon. Colleagues cannot just come up with a Motion to create a new structure in an institution anyhow because it will not fall in the existing strategy.

Madam Speaker, the commission’s strategy that exists at the moment is very elaborate and is in favour of the very youths and women whom the mover of the Motion is pretending to speak for on the Floor of the House. Youths and women have had a lion’s share of the empowerment opportunities provided by the CEEC. I can think of the youths who were recently empowered with light trucks, motorcycles and other loan facilities to improve their livelihood. So, there is already a system and structure that deliberately supports youths, women and other vulnerable groups under the CEEC. In this regard, we cannot again establish a department under the commission to specifically look at that group of our citizens.

Madam Speaker, by the way, did the mover of the Motion take time to even look at the structure of the CEEC? There is a very lean structure with very few members of staff at that institution. It is designed as such so as not to keep on spending money on administration, instead of financing the core business of the institution. So, I encourage the hon. Member to take a look at that aspect.

Madam Speaker, I was privileged to have interacted with the CEEC, having been a Member of the Committee on Parastatal Bodies. Therefore, I have reviewed the performance of the CEEC. The problems the commission had were under the previous regimes. At the outset, when the Commission was launched in 2006, it meant well, as the hon. Member for Chama North stated in his debate. The targets for empowerment were women and youths. It was a very good initiative until the time the Patriotic Front (PF) took over the Government. Do hon. Members not remember the issue of the buses that were run by cadres from the Lusaka Inter-City Bus Terminus and the thugs who used to maim us? There was total chaos and some of those thugs took off without paying back the loans for those buses. Those are some of the problems we are grappling with now. I would have been glad to see the mover of the Motion come to this House and bring in suggestions on how we can actually recover the money from the groups, I would call them cadres, that took off without paying back. I think that would help us ensure sustainability of the fund.

Madam Speaker: Sorry, hon. Member for Zambezi East, the use of the word ‘crooks’ is unparliamentary. Can it be withdrawn.

Mr Kambita: Did I use the word ‘crooks’ or ‘cadres’? Anyway, I withdraw the word.

Madam Speaker, I am looking for a decent word to use for the groups that used to gather at the Lusaka Inter-City Bus Terminus. That was a really bad way of handling an empowerment facility.

Madam Speaker, let us look at the empowerment model being used now. The President made pronouncements on the Floor of this House on the restructuring of the CEEC and quite a number of changes have been made since then. As a result, the institution is now more effective. If our hon. Colleagues actually cared, they would have gone to take a look at how much has been recovered from recent loans. Recovery of whatever is dispersed is actually being achieved. I think that is what is most important. It is important to ensure that empowerment funds are dispersed to those who have the capacity to pay back the loans. Those loans are supposed to be revolving funds. We cannot be sitting here, year in and year out, to appropriate funds to the CEEC when it was already appropriated a chunk of funds. The commission is supposed to have a revolving fund so that when those who get loans pay back, and the same funds are given to others, thereby empowering many people exponentially.

Madam Speaker, before a Motion is brought in the fashion that this one has been done, hon. Members should care to look at the pertinent issues that would help an institution improve its performance and achieve the objectives for which it was created. A Motion should not be brought before the House just for the purpose of making an announcement so that the youths listening out there can say, “Oh, the hon. Member from Mpika is speaking on our behalf.” It should not just be about being heard to speak when there are systems in place already.

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Chilubi for seconding the Motion. However, both the mover and seconder fell short of strategically addressing the problems, especially those that were caused by the previous regime. We need to speak about those issues. As things stand, I think, the restructuring of the CEEC has made it more effective than it was under the previous regime.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, that is my contribution to the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development (Mr Mubanga): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for this opportunity. I also thank the Member of Parliament for Mpika, Hon. Kapyanga, for bringing an important Motion before the House that seeks to strengthen the economic inclusion of youths and women or establish a department under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) for women and youths.

Madam Speaker, the CEEC, which is under the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, fully implements the objective of ensuring easy access to empowerment funds for youths and women. After carefully analysing the submission that the CEEC needs to establish a department specifically for youths and women, we submit that it is not necessary …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubanga: … to do so because the current legal mandate, institutional framework and operational practices of the commission already strongly support those groupings.

Hon. UPND Members: hear, hear!

Legal and Strategic Mandate

Mr Mubanga: The Citizens Economic Empowerment Act No. 9 of 2006 mandates the CEEC to:

promote the empowerment of citizens who have been marginalised or disadvantaged due to factors such as gender, age, disability and educational background;
to promote gender equality in accessing and controlling economic resources;
promote the employment of both genders, the youth and the women by recommending the removal of structured constraints with the grouping;
align with national policies on gender, youth, vocational training, decentralisation, trade and investment; and
ensure representation of youths on the CEEC Board.

Madam Speaker, accordingly, the CEEC’s Strategic Plan 2022-2026 explicitly emphasises the empowerment of social distribution as follows:

women 40 per cent; and
youth 40 per cent.

What are we remaining with, Madam Speaker?

Operational Performance and Impact

Madam Speaker, between 2022 and 2024, the CEEC empowered a total of 46,381 citizens. Of that number, 14,800 were youths, representing 32 per cent, while …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubanga: … 21,407, representing 46 per cent, were women. When we add these figures, we will have 78 per cent of youths and women. These results show that the total beneficiaries were either women or the youth, reflecting the commission's intention …

Mr Nkandu: Quality!

Mr Mubanga: … and an inclusion approach in line with the Act.

Mr Nkandu: Quality! Quality!

On-going Institutional Strengthening

Madam Speaker, further to this, the CEEC has implemented the following:

The commission has introduced a gender specialist to take care of women and youth. The Emoluments Commission has already been given the go-ahead; and
The CEEC has a targeted call for applications where it launched a call for proposals in irrigation support and energy, mostly targeted at women and youth, especially those living in our rural areas. The total number of applications received is about one million. Only women and youth will be considered.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the CEEC has been designed to take care of the women and the youths. The House may have seen the statistics that I gave. I, therefore, submit that the Motion is not necessary. The Government, through the CEEC is already taking care of the women and youths in accordance with its mandate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I want to sincerely thank the seconder of the Motion, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi, who ably seconded this very important Motion. I also want to thank those who supported the Motion; the hon. Members of Parliament for Kamfinsa, Nyimba and Chama North constituencies. I also thank those who have opposed the Motion.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi raised some issues. According to her, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) was doing what this department could be doing. I do not agree with her. What we are seeking to achieve is to ensure that women and youths venture into value-addition activities. It is only the CEEC that gives substantial amounts of money that can enable them to venture into value-addition activities in different industries, among other things.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about what the CEEC is currently doing, but those activities are not even properly co-ordinated. For example, you will find a chap who is neither linked to the CEEC nor to any Government institution distributing Marketeer Booster Loan forms in a particular constituency. The hon. Minister is aware of that.

Madam Speaker, currently, in the jungles of our country, we have thousands of our people who are engaging in illegal mining. The only reason they are engaging in illegal mining is that they do not have access to capital. Most of those people are women and youths. If they have easy access to capital, money that is dedicated to them by a department under the CEEC, they would acquire mining licences, equipment, and the department would take them for training on how to mine. So, people will be empowered.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has mentioned that the CEEC has introduced a gender specialist, but we want a dedicated department, one which is going to drive the agenda to create employment. The hon. Minister could not even tell us how many industries have been created. He could not. He could not tell us the impact of these activities being undertaken by the CEEC because currently, the CEEC is not effective. However, with a biased fund towards women and youth, a lot can be achieved.

Madam Speaker, I talked about the low statistics of women and youths involved. We gave reasons many women and youths are not involved. It is due to the lack of funds. If the CEEC was doing what the hon. Minister said, the statistics would have gone up. Even poverty levels would have been reduced. Currently, because there is no department dedicated to women and youth empowerment under the CEEC, very little is being achieved.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development should do more and adopt this model.

Mr Kambita: Question!

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Zambezi East, Hon. Kambita, debated in his usual way of juggling words I a manner that makes it difficult for our people to understand.

Mr Kambita: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Kapyanga: Our people want to see their lives improved. So, it is institutions such as the CEEC that can better our lives. You cannot go and tell hungry people that you have a strategy. Why is that strategy not working? There is no strategy which is working. Stop with the jargons, terminologies, this and that. It does not work. He was even saying they did not look at the structure or composition of the CEEC. That much we know. We came up with this Motion because we looked at the composition and structure of the CEEC. So, we want something that can actually help our youths and women.

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I want to urge every hon. Member who is responsible and who loves our people to support this Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Was there an indication for a point of order?

Mr Kambita indicated dissent.

Hon. PF Members called for a division.

Question that in order to provide easy access to empowerment funds by youths and women, this House urges the Government to Establish a Youth and Women Department under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission put and the House voted.

Noes – (74)

Mr Amutike

Mr Anakoka

Dr Andeleki

Mr E. Banda

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chinkuli

Ms Chisangano

Mr Haimbe, S.C.

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Hlazo

Mr Jamba

Mr Kakubo

Dr Kalila

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kangombe

Mr Kapala

Mr Kapema

Ms Kasanda

Mr Kolala

Mr Lubozha

Mr Lufuma

Mr Lumayi

Mr Mabenga

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Mr Mandandi

Mr Mapani

Mrs Masebo

Mr Matambo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Miyutu

Mr Moyo

Mr Mposha

Mr Mubanga

Mr Mubika

Mr Muchima

Mr Mufalali

Mr Mukumbi

Mr Mulaliki

Mr Charles Mulenga

Mr Mulunda

Mr Mulusa

Ms Munashabantu

Mr Munsanje

Mr N. Musonda

Mr Musumali

Mr Mutelo

Mr Mutinta

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu, S.C

Mrs Nalumango

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nkandu

Mr Nkombo

Mr Nkulukusa

Mr Nzovu

Mr P. S. Phiri

Ms Sabao

Mr Samakayi

Ms Sefulo

Mr Siachisumo

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simushi

Mr Simutowe

Mr Simuzingili

Mr Sing’ombe

Brig-Gen (Rtd) Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

Ms Tambatamba

Mr Wamunyima

Ayes – (27)

Mr Allen Banda

Mr Ackleo Banda

Mr S. Banda

Mr Chibombwe

Ms Chisenga

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chonde

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalimi

Mr Kalobo

Mr Kang’ombe

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Mabumba

Mr Mtayachalo

Ms Mulenga

Mr Mumba

Mr Mundubile

Mr Emmanuel Musonda

Mr Mutale

Mr Mwila

Ms Nyirenda

Mr P. Phiri

Mr Shakafuswa

Mr Simumba

Mr E. Tembo

Mr Twasa

Abstentions – (0)

Question accordingly negatived.

_______

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE ZAMBIA INSTITUTE OF PROCUREMENT AND SUPPLY BILL, 2025

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chipoka Mulenga) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane)): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Zambia Institute of Procurement and Supply Bill No. 11, 2025.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, we are back to business. Can we tone down.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Chipoka Mulenga: Madam Speaker, the objects of this Bill are to –

continue the existence of the Zambia Institute of Purchasing and Supply and re-name it as the Zambia Institute of Procurement and Supply, and re-define its functions;
promote and enhance the procurement and supply profession;
provide for the registration of procurement and supply professionals, and procurement and supply firms, and regulate their practice and professional conduct;
repeal and replace the Zambia Institute of Purchasing and Supply Act, 2003; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House in due course. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mongu, would you like to read the Standing Orders? Can you, please, tone down.

Hon. Member: Foreigner!

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member saying “Foreigner” is also contravening. Let us tone down and follow the business.

THE COTTON BILL, 2025

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Kapala) (on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo)): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Cotton Bill No. 12, 2025.

The objects of this Bill are to –

continue the existence of the Cotton Board of Zambia and re-define its functions;
re-constitute the board of the Cotton Board of Zambia and provide for its functions;
provide for the stages of grading and classification of seed cotton;
establish a price consultative forum;
provide for the establishment of seed production zones;
repeal and replace the Cotton Act, 2005; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House in due course. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE LANDS AND DEEDS REGISTRY (Amendment) BILL, 2025

The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Lands and Deeds Registry (Amendment) Bill No. 13, 2025.

The objects of this Bill are to amend the Lands and Deeds Registry Act, so as to –

grant the Chief Registry the power to cancel a certificate of title; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House in due course.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE TEACHING PROFESSION BILL, 2025

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Teaching Profession Bill No. 14, 2025.

The objects of this Bill are to –

continue the existence of the Teaching Council of Zambia and re-define its functions;
re-constitute the board of the Teaching Council of Zambia and re-define its functions;
regulate teachers, their practice and professional conduct;
provide for the administration of licensure examinations;
repeal and replace the Teaching Professions Act, 2013; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Education, Science and Technology. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House in due course.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE SUPERIOR COURTS (NUMBER OF JUDGES) BILL, 2025

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.) (on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Ms Kasune)): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Superior Courts (Number of Judges) Bill No. 15, 2025.

The objects of this Bill are to –

prescribe the number of judges for the Supreme Court, Constitutional Court, Court of Appeal and High Court;
repeal and replace the Superior Courts (Number of Judges) Act, 2016; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House on Tuesday, 29^th July, 2025. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE SMALL CLAIMS COURT (Amendment) BILL, 2025

Mr Mwiimbu, SC. (on behalf of Ms Kasune): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Small Claims Court (Amendment) Bill No. 16, 2025.

The objects of the Bill are to amend the Small Claims Court Act, so as to –

revise the jurisdiction of the Small Claims Court; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights and Governance. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House in due course. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

Thank you.

THE OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY INSTITUTE BILL, 2025

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Occupational Health and Safety Institute Bill No.17, 2025.

The objects of this Bill are to –

continue the existence of the Occupational Health and Safety Institute and re-define its functions;
re-constitute the Board of the Occupational Health and Safety Institute and re define its functions;
provide for the establishment of health and safety committees at workplaces;
regulate health and safety of persons at workplaces;
repeal and replace the Occupational Health and Safety Act, 2010; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

I thank you.

_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

ORDER OF DISPOSAL OF BUSINESS ON THE ORDER PAPER FOR TODAY

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, as you may be aware, Order No. 61(1) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, provides that the House shall dispose of business in the order it appears on the Order Paper or in such a manner as the Speaker may, for the convenience of the House, direct.

On the Order Paper for today, Wednesday, 16^th July, 2025, the Orders of the Day are appearing as item No. 9. I wish to, however, inform the House that I have brought the consideration of the Orders of the Day forward so that the Orders of the Day are considered immediately after the presentation of Government Bills. Thereafter, the remaining business will be considered in the manner it appears on the Order Paper.

I thank you.

_______

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (2025) BILL, 2025

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

First, Second and Third Schedules ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2025

Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2025

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Second, Fourth and Eighth Schedules ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE ANIMAL HEALTH (Amendment) BILL, 2025

Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:

The Supplementary Appropriation (2025) Bill, 2025

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2025

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2025

The Animal Health (Amendment) Bill, 2025

Third Readings on Thursday, 17^th July, 2025.

_______

MOTIONS

(Debate resumed)

REPORT OF THE ZAMBIAN DELEGATION TO THE 15^TH ORDINARY SESSION OF THE PLENARY ASSEMBLY OF THE FORUM OF PARLIAMENTS OF THE MEMBER STATES OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON THE GREAT LAKES REGION

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.) (on behalf of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and international Co-operation (Mr Haimbe)): Madam Speaker, I rise to contribute to the debate on the Report of the Zambian Delegation to the 15^th Ordinary Session of the Plenary Assembly of the Forum of Parliaments of the Member States of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region, held in Luanda, Angola from 20^th to 25^th April, 2025 for the Fourth Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 26^th June, 2025.

Madam Speaker, the Assembly was guided by the theme, "Inclusive Leadership and Decision Making in the Great Lakes Region: Highlighting the Importance of Involving Women and Youth in Decision-Making, Conflict Resolution and Humanitarian Responses.”

Before I proceed, I wish to congratulate you, Madam Speaker, as the immediate past president, for the manner in which you immensely contributed towards the objectives of the forum in the achievement of peace, security, stability and development in the region.

Madam Speaker, it is gratifying to note that Zambia successfully concluded her tenure, as President of the Forum of Parliaments of the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region, and the formal handover of this responsibility to the Right Hon. Carolina Cerqueira, Speaker of the National Assembly of the Republic of Angola.

KEY ACHIEVEMENTS DURING ZAMBIA'S TENURE

Strategic Engagements

Madam Speaker, during your tenure, you undertook a number of strategic engagements within the region, including the following:

your fourth has parliamentary fact-finding mission to Kampala, Uganda, in March 2025, where you held fruitful engagements with His Excellency, Mr Yoweri Kaguta Museveni, President of the Republic of Uganda, on the armed conflicts in the Eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo inter-alia, resolved that a special meeting of the Conference of Speakers and Presidents of African Legislatures (COSPAL) be held to deliberate and seek lasting solutions to the security and human challenges being faced by the African continent;
your fifth phase mission to Nairobi, Kenya, which was led by Hon. F. Moyo, also had engagements with His Excellency, Mr. William Ruto, President of the Republic of Kenya, where it was, inter alia, discussed the capability of the African Union in its current form to address the conflicts on the continent;
in January 2025, you undertook a familiarisation visit to the headquarters of the forum in Kinshasa, the Democratic Republic of Congo. The visit was important because for the first time, the staff at the headquarters had an opportunity to speak directly with the sitting president and to spell out their challenges. This also identified the gaps between the forum and the Chief Executives of national parliaments as controlling officers leading to the proposal to establish the Committee or Association of Clerks of member-parliaments;
as regards the handover to Angola, it is also gratifying to know that the current president of the forum of parliaments also firmly believes in the role of parliamentary diplomacy towards the achievement of the goals set out in the ICGLR Pact; and
in terms of Zambia’s appreciation and continued commitment, I wish to extend profound appreciation to the Hon. Madam Speaker of the National Assembly, hon. Members of Parliament and all stakeholders who contributed to Zambia's successful tenure as president of the parliamentary forum in championing parliamentary diplomacy. Zambia remains steadfast in its commitment to actively promote peace, security and regional co-operation within the Great Lakes Region because it believes that instability anywhere is instability everywhere.

Madam, Speaker, I, therefore, support the adoption of the report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Brig-Gen. Sitawala (Kaoma Central): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Indeed, it remains my rare honour and privilege to thank Hon. Kafwaya who attempted to debate the Motion yesterday, but he went off the mark.

Madam Speaker, this was just a report that was brought to the House for our information with a view of what the hon. Members of Parliament can learn. The theme was clear; “Inclusive Leadership” which is trying to look at how we can include women and youth in decision-making.

Madam Speaker, I want to emphasise that these reports are very important because they urge all of us to learn one or two things that we can do, as leaders at parliamentary level in trying to bring peace in our region. Allow me also to thank the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation for the good sum-up. I also want to thank you for your leadership. Those of us who were privileged to accompany you throughout the missions saw for ourselves what you took to the table to ensure that the Great Lakes Region remained peaceful. Otherwise, I want to thank everybody for the support.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON ENERGY, WATER DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM ON THE PERFORMANCE AUDIT ON GOVERNMENT EFFORTS TO ENSURE AVAILABILITY OF WATER HARVESTING INFRASTRUCTURE TO MITIGATE WATER SCARCITY IN ZAMBIA 2021-2024

Mr Kangombe (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House adopts the Report of the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism on the Performance Audit on Government Efforts to Ensure Availability of Water Harvesting Infrastructure to Mitigate Water Scarcity in Zambia 2021-2024, for the Fourth Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Thursday, 10^th July, 2025.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Kangombe: Mr Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 207(g) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2024, the Committee was tasked to consider the performance audit report of the Auditor-General on the Government's Efforts to Ensure the Availability of Water Harvesting Infrastructure to Mitigate Water Scarcity in Zambia 2021-2024.

Mr Speaker, the objective of the audit was to assess the effectiveness of the measures put in place by the Government, through the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, in strengthening institutional framework and availability and sustainability of water harvesting infrastructure to mitigate water scarcity in the country.

Mr Speaker, allow me, from the outset, to state that the efforts by the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation to increase availability of water harvesting infrastructure to mitigate water scarcity in Zambia were hampered by financial constraints. You may wish to note that despite the ministry having developed various strategies to implement water harvesting programmes, resource mobilisation and funding towards water harvesting programmes has been erratic. As evidenced in the audit report, out of the forty-eight dams earmarked for construction during the period under review, that is, 2021-2024, only one has been completed, due to financial constraints. The Committee finds the situation not only worrisome but very unfortunate. If Zambia is to be water secure, there is an urgent need to ensure that fund disbursement bottlenecks are addressed without delay.

Mr Speaker, allow me to draw your attention to the policy and legal framework governing water harvesting in the country. The Committee learnt that the available policies, strategies and pieces of legislation in place do not fully incorporate all water harvesting technologies. In this regard, there is an urgent need for the ministry to develop and execute a clear dissemination and implementation plan for the 2024 National Water Policy.

Further, as a matter of urgency, a review of the 1995 Water Master Plan should be undertaken to incorporate current climate change projections and water demands to inform accurate planning. Furthermore, the draft dam operational and maintenance guidelines should be finalised and officially gazetted to ensure standardised procedures for inspections, repairs, de-siltation and water use regulation to end reliance on various non-domesticated international guidelines from international partners.

Mr Speaker, the Committee observed that a lack of co-ordination and low collaboration among stakeholders in the planning and implementation of water harvesting programmes has resulted in fragmented implementation of water harvesting infrastructure. In this regard, the Committee recommends that a dedicated task force be constituted, which should include representatives from the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA), and the local authorities. The task force should be chaired by the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation. This will address poor co-ordination challenges and curb fragmentation in the implementation of water harvesting programmes and infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to express the Committee’s deep appreciation to all the stakeholders who tendered both oral and written submissions before it. Lastly, the Committee also appreciates your guidance and the services rendered by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly during its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Hamwaata: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to second the Motion ably moved by the chairperson of the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism, Hon. Romeo Kangombe, Member of Parliament for Sesheke.

Mr Speaker, water is life, and it plays a pivotal role in the development of this nation. Without water, there can be no agriculture, and the country would not be food secure. Food insecurity can breed national instability. A lack of adequate water can reduce the production of electricity and, in turn, cause the closure of major industries and, thereafter, job losses. On 29^th February, 2024, the President declared a national disaster and emergency after the drought we experienced during the 2023/2024 Rainy Season, which affected 9.8 million people in eighty-four districts, including Pemba. As a result of that catastrophe, a presidential decree was issued to urge the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation to seriously embark on the construction of water harvesting schemes. In response, the ministry embarked on an ambitious programme for water harvesting in various districts that included Pemba. The drilling of boreholes, water schemes and construction of sanitation facilities were pronounced on the Floor of this august House. We were also informed by the hon. Minister that the Government would construct and rehabilitate dams.

Mr Speaker, the Auditor-General’s report brought out a number of areas that need serious improvement. Some of the factors leading to poor performance by the ministry, especially the water sector, include, but are not limited to, poor funding to the sector. As of August 2024, only K168.97 million, out of K537.76 million appropriated by this august House, was released to the ministry. That represents 31.42 per cent. This is a clear indication that it is difficult for the ministry to realise its goal in terms of water harvesting.

Mr Speaker, there is also low uptake caused by lengthy procurement processes and engagement of contractors with low capacity or inexperience. My constituency, for example, was allocated two new dams for construction, and I have been committed to monitoring the works at both dams; Musize and Hajamba dams. When I visited Chibwentolo Dam, popularly known as Musize, I almost shed tears. I found my people, who were working for the contractor, pushing drums from the stream to the point where the spill was being constructed and they were working without personal protective equipment (PPE). It is strange to have a contractor with a big contract worth K10 million plus be on site without a concrete mixer. The workers were mixing concrete manually. It was also strange to find that a contractor with such a big project was without a simple tool as a poker vibrator, which roughly costs K7,000. At present, part of the dam wall that was constructed was washed away, and that has caused a serious problem, especially downstream where the weir dams along that stream have been buried because of the soil that was swept away at the construction site. The situation is also causing a serious problem for our people and animals, as our people do not have where to draw water, and the animals where to drink water. We seriously need to ensure that our technocrats engage contractors who can perform. In the absence of that, we end up delaying works, and it also becomes difficult to produce quality work. The most disappointing part about that contract is that I hear that the same contractor will still go back to finish the works.

Mr Speaker, the question people are asking is: Why should a contractor who has evidently failed to do the work go back on site? Where is the challenge? If it is the law that is making us keep contractors who have failed, we need to change it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Mr Speaker, the Auditor-General carried out a performance audit on the Government’s efforts to ensure availability of water harvesting infrastructure to mitigate water scarcity in Zambia between 2021 and 2024. The report of the Auditor-General was subsequently sent to the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism for assessment. The Committee has eventually brought a report to the Floor of the House on the matter, which I am privileged to comment on.

Mr Speaker, let me start by thanking my brother, Hon. Romeo Kang’ombe, the chairperson of the Committee, for moving this particular Motion. I also thank my brother, Hon. Lameck Hamwaata, for seconding and supporting the Motion, as he has stated.

Mr Speaker, the Committee’s report is an assessment of the Government’s response to the threat of the effects of climate change. That is why I am interested in the text contained in the report. On page 7, the report states as follows:

“Committee’s Observations and Recommendations

The Committee observes with concern the underfunding of water harvesting infrastructure by the Treasury amidst droughts and climate change.”

Mr Speaker, it further states as follows:

“Lack of Coordination

Stakeholders observed with concern a lack of stakeholder-engagement in dam planning, design and construction, resulting in fragmentation.”

Mr Speaker, the threat of the effects of climate change is real in our country. Those of us who have observed keenly what happened in 2017 and the past year know very well that a drought can have devastating effects on many Zambians. The entire south-west and eastern parts of our country had no water during the last drought. The only place that had water was a small portion of the northern region. That tells us that planning to harvest water when it is available in the country is very important. However, the report says that there was no funding for water harvesting plans between 2021 and 2024.

Mr Speaker, were you surprised when the mover of the Motion said that only one dam had been completed out of the planned forty-eight? Were you surprised? You should not be surprised because funding for such important infrastructure is unavailable from the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government. I am talking about the plans for 2021 to 2024. So, please, follow me because it is clearly documented in the report.

Mr Speaker, funding is not the only problem because the report states as follow:

“Stakeholders observed with concern a lack of stakeholder-engagement in dam planning, design and construction …”

Mr Speaker, the UPND Government has failed to provide the funds for the planning of where to construct dams because it does not involve stakeholders. So, it will have many problems. Even the one dam that has been constructed, and there are many that are yet to be constructed, may be located in an inappropriate area. When we talk about stakeholder engagement, we are talking about something that is serious. Those are things that the Government must take seriously. Is that the only problem? It is not because there is also the problem of designs.

Mr Amutike: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, the Government cannot even consult on dam designs after it failed to fund or consult on locations. What if even the one that will be constructed is wrongly designed for the area it will be located?

Mr Speaker, it is important for the UPND Government to start listening. I appreciate my brother who was forthright. I appreciate the Committee for being clear and telling the nation exactly where we are in terms of planning. When you just digress from the report and look at any other planning in this country, you will be confused. You start wondering what is lacking in this country. Is it technical or governance leadership? At what level do we need to fix the problems? The one who is responsible for fixing the problems is the UPND Government. That is why hon. Members of the UPND Government must be told in their faces that they have failed to plan even for the construction of dams.

Mr Speaker, I talked about the inability of the UPND Government to consult on designs. However, even on construction it is the same. Do you not wonder why there has been no consultation even on the construction of a road nearby after one year? So, the lack of consultation is not just on the construction of dams. There is no stakeholder involvement in many aspects. That is why the wrong things are being done under many projects. Such structures will hurt the Zambian people. Such buildings will collapse on the Zambian people. Even the bridges that were constructed under the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) have been collapsing. The CDF, which has been popularised, is being used to construct bridge that end up collapsing.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, speak to the report.

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, does the Government want dams to collapse just like the bridges that have been constructed using the CDF? Of course, not. We want those dams to be –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Have relevance in your speech. Why not confine yourself to the report, which you have in your hands? The beauty is that you have the report in your possession, which you must refer to.

You can proceed, but if you continue in that manner, I will curtail your debate. Ensure that you stick to the Committee’s report. You talk about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), but if in your constituency there is corruption regarding the fund, it is not everywhere.

Mr Kafwaya: No, you cannot say that. No, you cannot say that. My constituency having corruption? No, you cannot (pointing at Mr Speaker).

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you may resume your seat.

Mr Kafwaya: No, you cannot.

Interruptions

Hon. Members: He said collapsing.

Mr Kafwaya: Ah! Sorry, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Let him go!

Mr Kafwaya: Sorry, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, your arrogance will not take you anywhere.

Mr Kafwaya: What is that?

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I was merely trying to guide you. You were talking about corruption and things that you cannot substantiate, instead of sticking to the report. I will end up naming you and giving you a month away from the House so that you rest well.

Mr Kafwaya: I will go. Why not? It is your Chamber. So, I will go.

Interruptions

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving the people of Chilubi the opportunity to debate.

Mr Speaker, we need to start by first looking at where we are. The report has captured our current situation. It states that out of forty-eight dams earmarked for construction, only one has been constructed. That translates in 2 per cent achievement of the plans. For Zambia to be water sufficient, we need 12,000 dams, but we only have 2,750 dams. That is what the report has captured. That is a 22 per cent score. Further, out of the 2,750 dams, 70 per cent of them need rehabilitation.

Mr Speaker, based on those statistics, one can tell that we are not really putting a premium on water harvesting.

I will speak as someone who comes from an area with a lot of water, yapa manzi, meaning that we come from a water body; Lake Bangweulu, where there is plenty of water. So, this particular report is of interest to me.

Mr Speaker, we are trying to just talk about where we are, in terms of the hydrological arrangement. When we talk about water, where are we expected to harvest it from? The water harvesting opportunity offers itself at the maximum point during the rainy season. I may not be a water specialist, but –

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chaatila: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this time to raise this point of order. Obviously, I am raising this point of order with a heavy heart because the hon. Colleague I am raising this point of order on is a very close friend of mine, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte, Hon. Kafwaya.

Mr Speaker, I raise the point of order pursuant to Standing Orders No. 213(a) and 215(b). This is a House of procedure, where all of us must observe the decorum that our people voted us for. You have guided, most of the time, on the need for us to conduct ourselves as hon. Members of Parliament because our titles are respected everywhere. Now, if this House can accept the conduct of some hon. Members, like my brother, Hon. Kafwaya, I mean, it is high time we, as a House, became serious about how we conduct ourselves.

Mr Speaker, as I said, Hon Kafwaya is a very good friend of mine. However, a wrong is a wrong. Therefore, I raise a point of order as to whether the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte was in order to conduct himself the way he did before you, and the general House assembled here. This calls for a serious ruling.

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

I reserve my ruling. I will get back to the House at an appropriate time.

We may proceed. May the hon. Member for Chilubi, proceed.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted by the point of order, I was trying to underscore a common phrase that: “Water is Life”. The phrase means that water is an economic activity that can help this nation. Among other things; it can create employment, feed people and all that we may think about. We need to realise that it should not be business as usual when it comes to water harvesting. I was trying to say that the maximum point and opportunity to harvest water is during the rainy season.

Mr Speaker, fairly speaking, today, we seem to be talking about a bumper harvest. The bumper harvest came about as a result of the rainfall that God gave us. It is not because of the good policies, but largely, it can be attributed to the good rainfall throughout the country. This means that opportunity is gone, and our water is rushing to the oceans through different water bodies, but itis not being harvested.

For instance, I was expecting the young people in Chilubi, who are mostly unemployed and all they do is go on social media to have toxic discussions, to be given the potential by using Lake Bangweulu through irrigation. That can only be done when the water from Lake Bangweulu is tapped properly. I know that the Chambishi Canal and many other tributaries pour water into Lake Bangweulu, but at end of the day, these opportunities are being wasted.

Mr Speaker, when His Excellency the the President was giving a speech on water, as captured in your report, he directed the Water Resources Management Authority (WARMA) and the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) to take certain steps to ensure that water harvesting is scaled up. However, the statistics indicate that 185 dams were inspected and so on and so forth. That is a very casual approach, yet for us to be water sufficient, we are looking at a target of constructing 12,000 dams. As I already indicated, out the 12,000 dams, we only have 22 per cent. The same 22 per cent is further affected because 70 per cent of those dams need rehabilitation. That does not sit well.

Mr Speaker, another missing link in our natural resources, such as water, is that we are always dependent on funding for the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) from the United Nations (UN) family. When we consider many water projects that were done, including water mapping, which was undertaken in 2006, we see that they were funded from outside. What of the money that we appropriate through this House?

Money comes from institutions such as the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), United Nations Sustainable Development Co-operation Framework (UNSDCF) and Deutsche Gesellschaft für Internationale (GIZ). These are the people who are contributing to water harvesting projects. Where are we? Where is the National Budget? Where is the Vote for such projects? Do we not realise that we can create employment out of water harvesting? Do we not realise that we can beef-up the economy with volumes of exports when we harvest water for fish dams and many other factors?

Mr Speaker, when we look at the sample that the audit is talking about, we see that only sixteen of the 116 districts were sampled, which amounts to 14 per cent. This shows that we are being casual about this particular problem because if we can only sample sixteen districts while we depend on circulars and letters to be sent to ministries to gather data, the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) in provincial headquarters and those working at the district level will respond to the letters even when they do not have a single dam in their areas. They will simply respond to the letter to fulfil the fixture, as it may be.

Mr Speaker, I know, for instance, that we have something distantly infused in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), but it has to be reactivated. When reacting to such, one of the cross-cutting issues in all the factors that have been mentioned as regards why we did not achieve the desired results is financing. This means that financing has been bad from 2021 to 2024. So, if we consider water, as a resource that can add volume to the economy and increase employment and all that, we need to be serious about it and we need to ensure that we put the money where it can count.

Mr Speaker, mapping for dam construction was done in 2006. However, we have now seen mapping of minerals because there is an interest in that area. What of that for water? How much has the water in Lake Bangweulu and the other tributaries been surveyed? What of the water in Luapula Province and in the North-Western Province and on the Kafue River? How much have we surveyed? What value have we put to it? We can survey and map the presence of water to the benefit of the Zambians.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the voice of Chilubi, I support the report because it has captured many issues. The seconder and the mover of the Motion talked about salient issues that are quite important to the nation. I think that it would be unjust for the people of Chilubi to not support the report. I support the report with the observations made.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I will begin by commending the mover and the seconder of the Motion, as well as the entire Committee, for the report. The Committee has done a very good job, especially on the recommendations that show the Government the way forward. Of course, the report also recognises the problem that the country is facing, which is the critical shortage of water.

Mr Speaker, let me give an example of Mufulira regarding shortage of water. On an ordinary day, people wake up without water in their houses, yet water pipes run through their homes. People wake up without water, and they have no idea when water will run from their taps. The report talks about harvesting water to address the critical water shortage. It is therefore, very important and timely. Some people in Mufulira District live very close to water reservoirs, and they even see the water pipes, but their taps are dry. During the rainy season, people see floods or water running outside their gates and going to waste. There is simply no infrastructure to harvest rainwater so that it can be supplied as clean water to people. Mufulira has not been spared from water shortages.

Mr Speaker, as a country, we must take the report we are discussing seriously because it has provided solutions. The report concludes that for Zambia to have sufficient water for both rural and urban areas, we need to build about 12,000 water reservoirs across the country. Now, 12,000 is quite a big number. When I look through the report, I see that the Government says that for a start, there a three-year programme to construct sixty dams. We need 12,000 reservoir dams for the whole country. However, as at 2023, the country had only 2,750 dams, leaving a deficit of 9,250 dams. So, if the three-year programme is going to provide sixty dams in three years, we will need 460 years to meet the current deficit. Now, in 450 years, none of us will be here; not even our great, great grandchildren will be here. Simply, there will be no one. If the Government is serious about addressing the critical water shortage, it should not be talking about creating sixty dams in three years when the deficit is 9,000 dams. We really need to address the problem seriously.

Mr Speaker, the report has identified that, in fact, 70 per cent of existing dams need rehabilitation. The existing dams have been encroached upon and vandalised so they need to be rehabilitated. We are constructing dams at a very slow pace. Meanwhile, demand is increasing, the population is growing, and settlements are expanding. So, really, the Government needs to consider the issue very seriously. People already lack access to clean water, but at the pace we are moving, it will become risky and unhealthy to live in this country because of lack of clean water.

Mr Speaker, the report also provides solutions to the problem. What are the solutions? Firstly, we need to look for funding. The report has cited lack of investment in the water sector, especially during the period 2021-2023. No funding was available during this period, so almost nothing was done to alleviate water shortages. So, we need to look for funds first. In fact, the report has even recommended that we should not depend on donors for funds. The situation is so critical such that as a country, we need to allocate enough resources within our National Budget to address water shortages.

Mr Speaker, even projects that have been funded by donors have delayed to complete. For example, in Mufulira, where I come from, a project funded by the European Investment Bank (EIB), whose contract was signed in 2013, was delayed. It took seven years for Mulonga Water and Sanitation Company (MWSC) to conduct a feasibility study and to be ready to access the funds. The project started in 2020 it should have run for three years. So, it should have been completed by 2023. However, today in 2025, the project is still far from being complete, meanwhile, the people lack water. People wake up in their homes to dry taps. So, even dependence on donor funding is a big problem. What we need to do is raise funds ourselves and allocate them to address this critical problem.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is about skills. The report says that the three-year programme to construct sixty dams includes a plan to train manpower, buy equipment, and build infrastructure. You can tell that as a country, we do not have the equipment and the infrastructure needed to create water reservoirs. So, really, this is a critical situation. If we re-aligned funds to ensure that adequate monies are provided to the programme to address water shortages, we would not subject our people to days, weeks or years without access to clean water. Some people have even resorted to sinking shallow wells to access water. During the dry season, those shallow wells dry up. During the rainy season they are contaminated, and then we experience outbreaks of diseases, such as cholera and diarrhea.

Mr Speaker, now that a big part of our country is urbanised, we need enough trained manpower, and equipment to construct dams and water reservoirs. Let us ensure that the pipes that are fifty years old are replaced. We see people building houses in settlements without services; the services follow them later. They also need access to clean water. Therefore, the need to raise more money internally cannot be over-emphasised, as the report has shown.

Mr Speaker, the Government needs to consider the report seriously and implement the recommendations so that our people can come out of the situation and live as human beings, so to speak. Living without water is as good as living in the wild, where one has to look for a river or a stream to draw water from and then move on. We cannot run a country like that. We cannot keep people like that.

Mr Speaker, the report is well-timed, and I urge the Government to consider the recommendations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Motion on the Floor right now.

Mr Speaker, my major takeaway from the report that was delivered by Hon. Kangombe is a taskforce. The topic we are discussing right now needs a holistic approach. The Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation alone cannot manage the issue because it is a mammoth task.

Mr Speaker, I want to be very basic in my discourse so that even my cousins and grandparents in Kasenengwa will be able to follow what I am trying to put across. We need a holistic approach because one ministry or entity cannot deal with the issue.

Therefore, as we talk about that task force, I would be happy if the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, the Ministry of Energy, and the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment were involved. The Ministry of Green Economy and Environment is critical, in my opinion, in this case because I relate it to the debate on the report on climate change we had yesterday. If the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment was well funded, the other year, when we had a drought, through the Meteorology Department, which looks at weather forecasting, perhaps, it would have issued a red alert to inform the country on which areas would be more hit by the drought and the areas that would receive more rainfall. Unfortunately, everyone was guessing. Even at the time, we asked Her Honour the Vice-President why the areas that were forecast to receive more rainfall ended up experiencing the drought, her only response was that such things also happen in Europe. According to her, on that particular day, she had been watching the Cable News Network (CNN) or British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) when the weather patterns changed from a heavy storm to a lighter one. While those things happen, we expect the Meteorology Department, through the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, to be well-funded so that our citizens can plan and harvest water.

Mr Speaker, I would also like the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, which has the people who are charged with the management of financial resources for the country – Further, that task force will not be effective if it leaves out non-governmental organisations (NGOs). Last year, hon. Members attended a workshop at the Intercontinental Hotel sometime in December, which was organised by the Water Sanitation and Hygiene (WASH) Zambia programme, I think. We were taught how to harvest water, set up weir dams and so on and so forth. By the way, I implemented the initiatives that were discussed in that workshop in my constituency. Soon, you will see documentaries on television (TV) about water harvesting, as a result of that NGO. The task force should also include traditional leaders because sometimes we need the involvement of traditional leaders to be effective in water harvesting initiatives.

Mr Speaker, you and I come from rural constituencies, and we see how much our streams and rivers have been damaged by the illegal gold miners. One cannot talk about those streams being restored to what they were, maybe, after many years, because the illegal gold miners are only interested in what they are looking for, and disregard what the vegetation gives us. So, we also need the traditional leaders so that they can help us manage the communities.

Mr Speaker, we also need everyone in this House; the politicians. We need political will. This country was told about how methodically and meticulously this Government would perform in terms of water harvesting. Today, it is rhetoric. No results. Totally nothing. The report on the Floor states that only one dam out of many has been constructed. This House should not be a talk shop. We need political will in this initiative so that when each of us returns to our constituencies, we can dedicate time to talk about climate and reforestation; how can we plant trees, and prevent our natural resources from being damaged. The problem is that when we travel to our constituencies, we only talk about the number of schools and bridges we are going to build or vitenge we are going to give out. We forget critical things like water harvesting and climate change.

Mr Speaker, unfortunately, the only class of people who can harvest water are the white farmers. Most of us cannot. We just watch the rivers overflow, and we wait with our cars and bicycles until the water recedes, that is when we cross. Nothing clicks in our minds about how we can harvest that water. Like the current President used to say before he got into office, the question should be how we can harvest that water. However, we let that water flow. When we return to our areas, all the streams are dry. There is only sand. We need political will so that the initiatives that the report has stated can be effective.

Mr Speaker, lastly, we need more sensitisation so that even at the household level, we do not just put pavers in our yards, but also assess areas where water collects and flows so that we can set up water reservoirs. We can dig soakaways or septic tanks to harvest water. That can only happen with political will and sensitisation. A task force can look at this issue holistically.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I was just laughing at the fact that digging a manhole at his house is political will.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu interjected.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, the people of Chama South are protesting.

You have been represented by Hon. Twasa, who has recommended soakaways.

Mr Speaker, I would like to support the adoption of this important report. We are mindful that Zambia sits on two-thirds of the fresh water in the region. However, over the years, the sector had not been given the deserved premiums. One of the major challenges in any part of this country is the scarcity of clean and safe drinking water. This sector needs to be granted the deserved and desired resources as a matter of priority, even in line with the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). One of the things that we are grappling with, as a rural constituency, is that although there are many water bodies in Kanchibiya, the provision of clean and safe drinking water for our people remains a challenge.

Mr Speaker, I will speak to what one of my hon. Colleagues alluded to earlier, which is the contamination of our water bodies because of illegal mining activities. The Government needs to take this bull by the horns and remember that while it ensures that our people are economically empowered, it must not be at the expense of human life. If our people drink contaminated water with faecal matter and mercury from the Kanchibiya and Lwitikila rivers, for example, then we will nurse a national crisis. Restoring the water bodies to what they were after so much damage will, again, cost this country a lot of money.

As alluded to by my colleague, Hon. Twasa, Mr Speaker, water harvesting is critical. It must be a matter of policy for water harvesting to be part and parcel of our architectural designs so that even when we construct houses or any other infrastructure, water does not run on our roads and soakaways. We can collect that water and use it when need arises. Generations of Zambians, even on the Floor of this Parliament, have alluded to how we can harvest water. Let us start with what is workable and implementable. Let us start from where we can. We may not have a hundred per cent turnaround strategy, but we must start from somewhere. This House has what it takes to ensure that we allocate the desired resources to this critical sector.

Mr Speaker, I have been to the ministry responsible for this sector, and I know the challenges that it is grapples with. However, if all of us in this House gave this particular ministry the desired financial muscle, a lot could be done, and plenty of appreciation would be given by our people.

Overall, as I conclude, Mr Speaker, this sector is critical in ensuring that our people are healthy, that we are a healthy nation, a nation that is food secure, and a nation that is in tandem with the SDGs.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, allow me to support the recommendations in the report, and to say that this particular ministry deserves our full support.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, almost all the previous debaters have clearly indicated the need for financing water harvesting. They indicated that, as a nation, we should allocate more resources towards water harvesting. However, I will take a different trajectory. What should the water be harvested for? Is it for consumption or production? If it is for production, what is it that we have planned in terms of priorities?

Mr Speaker, you should go to some of our communities where water is harvested and check what is done with the water. In Lusaka, for example, there is the Blue Water Dam in Chawama. It is a huge water body, but what is the water in that dam used for? We expect entrepreneurs, for example, to have fish cages in such naturally occurring water bodies. You would be shocked to know that, day in and day out, dead bodies are retrieved from that dam. Only one man-made water body, unlike those that occur naturally, has been exploited. It is called Tiffany’s Canyon. One would argue that the facility probably belongs to our colleagues who are highly exposed.

Mr Speaker, in short, the question I would like us to answer is: Are we technically ready to exploit water harvesting? Yes, there are areas in this country where we cannot find water. We can try to sink boreholes there, but we will not find water. There is one such area in Vilimukulu Ward of Chama South Constituency called Chigoma. It is for such areas that we can talk of water harvesting, not for agricultural exploitation, but for people to have safe and clean drinking water.

Mr Speaker, one thing that I have liked about President Hakainde Hichilema is his initiative of the enhanced Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Using that fund, we have bought yellow machines and we are constructing roads. There will be a time when we will complete the construction of all the roads, which is not very far from now. In our case, we will even deploy those yellow machines to construct water reservoirs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, we will be requesting the hon. Minister to assist us with the technical capacity for projects in areas like Chigoma. Currently, we are constructing roads, but I am very sure that in the next two or three years, because I will still be the Member of Parliament for Chama South –

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, I am very sure that we will soon be done with the roads. Thereafter, we want people in those areas to have water reservoirs so that they can be engaged in winter farming. That is what the President has been preaching.

Hon. PF Members: On which ticket?

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, I need your protection. Some hon. Colleagues are asking me the ticket I will stand on. The ticket is well-known and it is the one that is winning next year.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, your Committee’s report touches on the critical issue of water harvesting. Therefore, we need to plan. A multi-sectoral approach is needed in carrying out that exercise. Imagine what would happen if the Ministry of Small and Medium Enterprise Development, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Agriculture came together to train people on winter farming. First of all, we would create demand for the water that we want to harvest. For me, that should be the starting point. We need to create demand for water to be harvested for agricultural purposes. Thereafter, we need to look for investment because harvesting water requires a lot of money. Building retaining walls and holding capacity costs a lot of money. If we have to get future benefits from water harvesting, we need to invest in the production side. That would demand for extension services and training farmers in terms of the crops that would give them the highest possible returns.

Mr Speaker, in supporting the Committee’s report, I urge the Government to take a multi-sectoral approach by identifying areas with potential for water harvesting and production. I know we need water for drinking, but that is not a big challenge. We need water harvesting for crop production.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I wish to equally support the report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Eng. Nzovu): Mr Speaker, I am honoured to stand before you today to comment on the insightful report presented by the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism. I want to begin by expressing my sincere appreciation to the Committee for its dedicated and diligent oversight. The insights provided in the performance audit report and subsequent recommendations are truly invaluable as we strive to strengthen our nation’s response to water security challenges.

Mr Speaker, the ministry is unwavering in its commitment to supporting the oversight function of Parliament. We fully embrace our responsibility to ensure that the Government’s interventions in the water sector are delivered with efficiency, transparency and accountability. The performance audit on water harvesting infrastructure comes at a critical moment. Zambia continues to grapple with the profound impacts of climate change, particularly prolonged droughts and unpredictable rainfall patterns. These climatic extremes are not just threatening our water security, but also compromising food production, health outcomes, energy security and economic resilience as a nation.

However, we recognise that significant challenges remain. This audit report provides a strategic opportunity to accelerate our reforms and build a more secure future for all Zambians.

Mr Speaker, allow me now to address the key areas highlighted in the report and outline concrete steps the ministry has taken or is currently undertaking.

In response to concerns about outdated and fragmented legal and institutional frameworks, the ministry has taken decisive action. We have since issued the 2024 National Water Policy, which consolidates the 2011 National Water Policy and the 2020 Water Supply and Sanitation Policy into one document. This policy addresses critical gaps and ensures alignment with contemporary challenges and international best practices. It places emphasis on climate-smart water harvesting technologies, promotes inclusive participation across sectors and reinforces co-ordination mechanisms.

Mr Speaker, in addition, the ministry is undertaking a review of the Water Resources Management Act No. 21 of 2011 to enhance the development and management of water resources. This review specifically aims to address concerns related to the reduction of water permitting durations and the mitigation of water pollution. In response to the severe drought experienced during the 2023/2024 period, the ministry developed and launched the National Rainwater Harvesting Strategy. This strategy is specifically intended to improve national water security, strengthen climate resilience and promote sustainable water usage practices, to ensure co-ordinated development and mitigate fragmented efforts. We have also issued Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 73 of 2024. This SI requires that all stakeholders consult the ministry prior to the construction of any water harvesting infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, the 1995 National Water Resources Master Plan is undeniably outdated. It no longer reflects Zambia's current hydrological, climatic and socio-economic realities. To address this critical gap, the ministry successfully submitted a proposal to the Africa Water Facility under the African Development Bank (AfDB), which is now funding the update of this vital master plan. To supplement this, we also requested technical support from Japan International Co-operation Agency (JICA). We have since engaged Japanese consultants to undertake a comprehensive water resources assessment utilising modern digital satellite technology. This assessment is expected to be completed by 2026, and its outputs will serve as the foundation for the development of a new climate-resilient National Water Resources Master Plan.

Mr Speaker, the sustainability of water harvesting infrastructure hinges on consistent maintenance and standardised operational procedures. To this end, the ministry is currently developing operational and maintenance guidelines tailored to small and medium-sized dams. These guidelines will standardise three procedures, including periodic inspections, routine repairs, distillation processes and water use regulation protocols. We are working diligently to finalise and launch these guidelines by December, 2025.

Mr Speaker, the new SI on water harvesting further supports the institutionalisation of these guidelines and provides a legal basis for their enforcement. In recognition of the current limited coverage of water harvesting infrastructure, the ministry has initiated an ambitious three-year dam development programme. Our goal is to construct sixty dams distributed across the country. This will significantly increase the national water storage capacity and help us mitigate the impacts of drought and water scarcity.

Mr Speaker, the ministry is collaborating with the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO), the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and the German Agency for Co-operation (GIZ) to pilot climate-resilient and cost-effective technologies. These include innovative solutions, such as sand dams, rock catchments and groundwater recharge systems, which are currently being tested in Zambia's arid and semi-arid regions. Furthermore, we will finalise the rainwater harvesting guideline for schools, providing a practical framework for implementing safe and reliable water harvesting systems in educational institutions worldwide.

Mr Speaker, to address identified gaps in technical expertise and infrastructure design, our dam development programme includes structured capacity building for engineers within the ministry and for local contractors. These crucial training sessions will ensure that water harvesting infrastructure is built to the highest standards and maintained effectively.

Additionally, the ministry has made provisions for acquiring critical technical equipment, including geotechnical testing tools, surveying instruments, computers and advanced dam design software. This strategic investment will significantly reduce our reliance on external consultants and lower the cost of project preparation activities.

Mr Speaker, robust monitoring systems are vital for the safety and sustainability of our water infrastructure. The ministry currently undertakes biannual dam surveillance exercises through its district-level offices. These inspections occur before and after each rainy season to assess the structural integrity and operational status of our dams.

Further, the Water Resources Management Authority (WRMA) has updated its national dam register and introduced a digital dam inspection and enforcement tool. In 2024 alone, more than 185 dams were inspected. In 2025, WRMA issued twelve stop orders for illegal dam constructions and fourteen for encroachment on water resources. These proactive interventions are crucial for enforcing compliance and safeguarding public investment.

Mr Speaker, sustainability also profoundly depends on community ownership. With support of GIZ, under the Accelerate Water and Agricultural Resources Efficiency (AWARE) programme, the ministry developed a dam management training manual, with this invaluable tool, thirty-eight dam committees were trained in 2024.

Mr Speaker, we wholeheartedly welcome and support the Committee's broader recommendations. We agree that domestic budgetary allocation towards water harvesting should be increased and that innovative financing mechanisms must be explored. To this end, the ministry is actively exploring innovative financing mechanisms to mobilise the much-needed financial resources to support the development and timely completion of critical water infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, we agree with the recommendation to secure title deeds for dam areas and delineate recharge zones in order to protect them from encroachment. Legal land tenure will be essential for long-term sustainability and protection of these vital resources.

Mr Speaker, let me quickly also update the House. This is resulting from a few comments made by my fellow hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Speaker, a task force is already in place. This constitutes the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation, the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, the Ministry of Energy, the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock and the Ministry of Agriculture. The issue of inadequate funding obviously will require the support of hon. Members as we appropriate the budget.

Mr Speaker, the lengthy procurement processes have since been addressed resulting from the enactment of the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) Act. Bad co-ordination is a thing of the past as a multi-sectoral approach is now being coordinated very well.

Mr Speaker, yes, indeed, the report may state that we may need over 12,000 dams, but hon. Members should remember that when we look at the holistic approach and bearing in mind the prevailing climatic conditions, there are certain areas where we believe conveyancing of water from the existing reservoirs would be a more suitable solution than dam construction. The sixty dams have been selected to ensure that they speak to food security, energy security as well as they are mainly hydropower-based. You will recall that most of the…

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Minister wind up debate.

Eng. Nzovu: Thank, you, Mr Speaker.

In closing, I want to say that we all need to be on board. Some of the loudest opposition here to the dam construction or harvesting of the water, transfer of water from the north to the south are right here. We need to supportfall measures because this resource is meant to benefit all Zambians.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kangombe (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, thank you, once again, for giving me the opportunity to wind up the debate. I would also like to thank my hon. Colleagues who have ably debated and supported the report. I thank the seconder of the Motion, Hon. Hamwaata. I also thank Hon. Kafwaya, Hon. Fube, Hon. Mwila, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, my son, Hon. Mung’andu, and the hon. Minister for the responses that they have shared.

Mr Twasa: What about me?

Mr Kangombe: Mr Speaker, I also appreciate the debate by my former hon. Colleague from Kasenengwa, who is finished, for the word and the support he rendered.

Mr Speaker, a critical issue that I feel the Government should address, while noting what it is already doing, is overdependence on donor funds, which are not predictable. If you critically analyse the issue of water harvesting infrastructure, you will find that one of the reasons there has not been good funding for this topical issue is overdependence on donor funds. We heavily depend on donor funds, which, unfortunately, are not predictable. My hon. Colleagues have raised the issue as well. I feel that the Government should mobilise resources locally for the issue to be actualised. We are so lucky to have abundant resources. I am aware that one hon. Colleague is about to bring a Motion that will urge the Government to support the mining activities, an aspect that it is already considering. The President himself has mentioned that that is the trajectory the Government wants to take regarding the mobilisation of resources locally. So, the Government is doing quite enough. I therefore, urge the Government to ensure that whatever bottlenecks that hinder us from maximising locally generated resources are ironed out.

Mr Speaker, otherwise, this was a very technical report. Once again, I thank your office, the Office of the Clerk, and hon. Members of Parliament who have ably supported the Motion.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT: THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD ASSUME OWNERSHIP AND OPERATIONAL CONTROL OF GOLD MINING ACTIVITIES IN MUFUMBWE.

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: We have an item for debate to be introduced by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa. It is not a Motion and it will not be seconded. At 1900 hours, the debate will end and the debate will lapse.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, allow me to thank your office for allowing me this evening to bring an issue to the attention of this august House as well as to the nation. I believe that the issue is of great importance as it relates to mining activities in our country.

Mr Speaker, may I indicate, from the outset, that my Adjournment Motion has four keywords namely, government, ownership, operational control, and mining activities. For the benefit of those who are tuned in to Parliament Television, currently, we have minerals dotted around the country. We have a report before this Parliament indicating that geological mapping was undertaken to establish the presence of minerals in the country. There is lithium in Mapatizya Constituency, gold in Mwinilunga Constituency, and manganese in Luapula Province. This confirms that minerals are available in Zambia. However, there has been a challenge with the model we have been using to reap the required benefits from mining activities.

Mr Speaker, this evening, I draw your attention to the mining activities currently taking place in a district called Mufumbwe. As you might be aware, lives have been lost during gold mining there. I think that there was a Ministerial Statement to that effect, and steps are being taken to guarantee the safety of our people involved in gold mining. The gist of my proposal today, or the gist of this conversation, is how mining activities should be structured in Mufumbwe. I am proposing a model which I anticipate will help the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to formulate policy guidelines, such as who should own mines in Mufumbwe. The Motion of Adjournment is very clear.

Let us allow the Government to own and run the mines in Mufumbwe. The history of our country has been that when we find a mineral resource, the first thing that comes to our mind is to find an investor to provide the financial resources to extract it. From where I stand, Zambia has been conducting mining activities since 1930. The first mining shaft was sunk in Nkana, Kitwe, in 1930; I am sure that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development agrees with me. Now, I am wondering. From 1930 to date, are we saying that we do not have the technical capacity to run mines? The people running First Quantum Minerals (FQM) in Kalumbila, Solwezi, are Zambian engineers. The people running mining facilities such as Lumwana Mine, Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) are Zambian engineers, geologists, and accountants. These individuals have been running mining operations for many years.

Mr Speaker, the only challenge we have had is financial resources and I believe that is the conversation we should start having. Are we saying that people who are financial experts cannot tell us which financial model can be used to raise the money required to begin running mining facilities? The conversation I have brought today, in this august House, is about allowing the Government, for the first time, to run gold mines in Mufumbwe. I am not saying that the mineral resource is not there and that we have no capacity to extract it. I am saying that we have been mining for many years but the only problem we have had is our capacity to raise money. Are we saying that to date, we do not have qualified accountants?

What have the people who train at the University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Copperbelt University (CBU) been learning all these years? They have been learning about how to raise money and find resources. Here is an opportunity. A mine is available in Mufumbwe. Can we use the mining activities in Mufumbwe as a model that we can replicate in other areas? At this stage in our country’s history, we should be discussing how best Zambia can run its mining activities. The mine has been secured, and the mining licence should be issued to the Zambian Government. I am not saying we start looking for an investor. We are tired of investors being the only ones with the financial capacity to bring resources. If an announcement was made about Zambians who would want to provide financial resources and be part of the ownership structure through the Government in Mufumbwe, many people would be willing to support the Government in undertaking mining operations.

Mr Speaker, my message to both the hon. Members on the right and the left is a straightforward conversation. Can we, for the first time, allow ourselves to run a mining activity? Gold mining is something that local people can do. The people who are not even skilled go to Mufumbwe. The people who were dispersed in Mufumbwe have limited skills. They are people who have not been to university, yet they were able to find the resources and were able to use basic tools to get the mineral from the mine in Mufumbwe. So, I ask myself: Are we saying that after all these years that we have trained mining, mechanical, electrical and environmental engineers, they do not have the capacity to be given resources by the Government to go to Mufumbwe, and get the resource out, give it to the Zambia Gold Company, then, that company sells it to the Bank of Zambia (BoZ)? I believe that will give us the financial position that Zambia deserves to have.

Mr Speaker, all the rich countries use gold as a reserve. I was reading the report of the BoZ last week and, according to the figures, we only have US$300 million worth of gold. That is not enough. We should be discussing US$1 billion worth of gold. How are we going to have US$1 billion worth of gold if all the gold we produce is mined by foreign entities? Zambia has been known for mining. No wonder we are called the copper bullets. Our history, our identity, as Zambia, has been mining. Here is an opportunity in Mufumbwe, Mapatizya and Luapula for us to try. If we fail to find the money, we will come back to this Parliament and say that, at least, we tried and, for the first time, the people in Mufumbwe were allowed to be part of the value chain. The gold was bought by the Zambian Government, mined by the Zambian Government, and sold to the BoZ.

Mr Speaker, I am speaking with a lot of passion because I ask myself when that opportunity will come when we can say that we are ready and can do what we have failed to do for many years. We know that mining is capital-intensive, but I do not think gold mining is something we can fail to do. The locals have shown us. The people in all those local areas have shown us that it is possible. That is why I am wondering why those who have been to school and have had training opportunities leave. People from the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development travel to Australia for training, but what skills do they apply locally when they return? What is the use of sending people to learn about financial models? What do they learn that cannot be applied in our country? That is why today’s Motion is a clarion call to qualified Zambian engineers and accountants. This is an opportunity for everyone who is an expert in this field to apply their skills. We are urging the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to not look for an external investor, but to try and run the mine. Can we give it a shot? If we fail, we will say that, at least, we tried.

Mr Speaker, I want to be on record saying that we want the Government to assume ownership, provide operational control and ensure that we reap the benefits, not benefits for an investor, but benefits for the Zambian Government. As the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development responds, I want him to bear in mind that we know that procedures are available for that area to be given a mining licence to be owned by the Government. Once the Government does that, we can say that, at least, we tried our level best. I am hopeful that those who will add their voices to this debate will agree with my sentiments.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Kamfinsa, I submit.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Sefulo (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Motion.

Mr Speaker, before I start, I would like to ensure that I restrict myself to what the hon. Member has proposed with regards to mining. The hon. Member’s Motion states:

“That the Government should assume ownership and operational control of gold mining activities in Mufumbwe.”

Mr Speaker, I am not too sure whether the hon. Member was in Parliament last week, because this is one of the issues that we raised. I had raised a point of order on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security on the same.

Mr Speaker, in supporting the Motion, I will say that this Motion seems like a situation in which one has a patient who has been struggling with sleeping, and finally they are sleeping, but one wakes him or her to give him or her that pill so that they can sleep. I say so because it is important for hon. Members to thoroughly read the reports that are produced when your Committees are sent to interrogate issues. I am the chairperson of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters, a Committee that was sponsored by your office to learn lessons in Tanzania, and we made recommendations that were adopted on the Floor of this House. When a report is adopted, it means that the urging has already been done. Some of the things that the hon. Member is speaking to are contained in the report that was presented. That is why I am saying that the Motion sounds like one is trying to wake a patient, who has been struggling to sleep, and has finally fallen asleep, to give him or her a sleeping pill.

Mr Speaker, the things that the hon. Member has talked about were recommended on the Floor of this House, and the report was adopted. So, as much as we support what the hon. Member has said, the Government has already been urged, and I do not know whether it can be urged twice or three times. I think that is a repetition because the urging was already done through the report that was presented. I urge the hon. Member to just look at that report. One of the recommendations that we made, which has already been adopted, was not just formalising all the Zambian-owned mines, we also went further to recommend the introduction of gold marketing centres. So, it feels like we are taking a step backwards to what we already discussed. When we talk about the gold marketing centres, who are we targeting? It is the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I will go back to the question of what the Government is. We are saying that the Government should own the mines.

Laughter

Ms Sefulo: Mr Speaker, the Government is the people of Zambia. So, when we talk about an artisanal miner who has been given a licence to mine, we are talking about the Government because the people are the ones who form the Government. A Zambian who has been given an artisanal mining licence is the Government. In addition, we are introducing gold marketing centres, aggregators and formalisation. It was also said on the Floor of the House that in Mufumbwe, the Government has already taken ownership of the mine by deploying security personnel.

Mr Speaker, just three days ago, I was listening to a news report about what was happening in Mufumbwe. I am not sure if the hon. Member has seen that report. As I indicated earlier, we support this Motion, but all we are saying is that what the hon. Member is proposing is already being done by the Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: So, why bring such a Motion then?

Mr Kang’ombe interjected.

Ms Sefulo: Hon. Member, we are supporting you, but again, you have a problem with being supported. What do you want? You have brought a Motion on the Floor of the House and we are supporting you. I agree with you.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwandi, your time is up.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Chilubi an opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, we need to confine ourselves to what is prescribed in the Motion. The Motion is about gold mining in Mufumbwe. The mover tabulated the objective of the Motion, which is what we must harvest from this discussion. I think this Motion is non-controversial.

Mr Speaker, for starters, I wish to point out that we all know that Mufumbwe, which is in the limelight now, has experienced so much violence in the last few days. So, if the measures we had put in place were helping the country, we would not have had such incidents. That means that we are missing the point somehow. What is the mover of the Motion asking for? The mover is asking the Government, using the Zambia Gold Company Limited (ZGCL), which is under the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC), to take over mining operations in Mufumbwe, instead of allowing private aggregators. That is what the Motion is about.

Mr Speaker, we need to promote the vision of Cecil Rhodes when he built the railway line from Lusaka to Livingstone in 1906. He did that to specifically tap into our natural resources. That is the mind-set we should be trying to promote. If others are saying, “Hands off Mufumbwe”, I am saying, “Hands-on Mufumbwe”. That is because we are talking about a mineral of high value.

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion is trying to say that the Lands Act, Cap. 184 of the laws of our nation, …

Interruptions

Mr Fube: … gives the President powers to own land on behalf of the Zambian people. The Act further talks about minerals being protected.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: If you do not read, it is not my problem. You get my point?

Mr Speaker, we are looking at the President being positioned as a steward of our land …

Mr Kabuswe: Question!

Mr Fube: … and minerals. Those who have been to school know that when a mineral is found in the soil, it belongs to the country. That is what the Motion is talking about. Further, the Mines and Minerals Development Act also gives the responsibility of owning land to the President.

Mr Kabuswe: It is no longer like that.

Mr Fube: I will qualify that.

Mr Speaker, I know the hon. Minister brought the Mines and Minerals Regulation Commission Bill before this House. Therefore, I will qualify what I am saying.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, can I be protected? I think, my hon. Colleagues need to read the Standing Orders, as Madam Speaker earlier said.

Mr Speaker, I will qualify what I am talking about, even though the hon. Minister is excited and saying that it is no longer there, since the Mines and Minerals Regulation Commission Bill repealed the old Act. However, the new Act, which the hon. Minister is talking about, establishes a commission that is supposed to look at the matter at hand. The same Act has positioned and isolated gold as a mineral of interest. The hon. Minister must read his own Act. It will tell him that gold is positioned as a special mineral, for that matter. The Act talks about gold being protected. So, who should protect gold, if not the State? Is it the 50,000 illegal gold miners in Mufumbwe? It is the State that should protect the gold, according to the new Act, which repealed the old one. Gold has its own position in that particular Act, and it is a protected mineral. So, the mover of the Motion is asking that we operationalise what the Act states by bringing in the ZGCL, which is under the IDC, so that a mineral of high value can be protected. If that is done, it will benefit reserves at the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) and create employment in a very structured way. Currently, we have haemorrhage. What is happening in Mufumbwe is economic haemorrhage.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah! Question!

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, we need to restructure so that we look at it properly because it will benefit Zambia. We want gold to boost volumes of the exports and the gross domestic product (GDP). That is what we are asking for. If anyone is against that, then, that one is against the Zambians. What we want is for the resource to be owned by Zambians. This means that since we have a representative arrangement, the Government should own this on behalf of the Zambians.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu, SC.): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Adjournment Motion.

Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Constituency for a very bold move to publicly support the Government position. That is how it should be. If the Government does something good, please, support it, the way the hon. Member is doing now. He is doing exactly what we have been saying.

Mr Speaker, last week, I came on the Floor of this House, and delivered a joint statement on behalf of the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development because the hon. Minister responsible for mines was not present.

Mr Speaker, we mentioned that we are taking over Mufumbwe gold mining area, and that the Government was going to take appropriate action and ensure that the people of Zambia benefit from the endowment. The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development will address other matters.

Mr Speaker, I expected that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa would to go further without restricting himself to Mufumbwe because he is aware that we have a similar endowment in Kanyelele in Mpika, where even the chiefs in Mpika have urged the Government to take over the operations, and the Government has agreed. We have sent security personnel to ensure that that endowment is guarded. We have a similar endowment in Serenje, where there is a huge deposit of gold there, and we have taken the necessary action.

Similarly, I have just been briefed by my hon. Colleague, Mr Mukumbi, hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi West, that thousands of people have invaded Kalumbila and that they are mining gold in that particular area. The decision by the Government to ensure that Zambians enjoy the endowment will not be restricted to one area. We will provide security in all areas where we think it is necessary for the benefit of Zambians. So, we will not restrict ourselves to Mufumbwe only. We will go to any area in the country, where we think there are huge deposits of gold and if diamonds will be discovered, or any other mineral - critical minerals, we will provide that endowment.

Mr Speaker, I would like to support this Adjournment Motion, which has been moved by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa in support of the Government. Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, we are proud of you …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu, SC.: … for supporting the Government’s decision.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Minister of Mines and Mineral Development (Mr Kabuswe): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for raising that matter.

Mr Speaker, I agree with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security that the Government is already doing what the hon. Member has suggested. Before I go into the gist of my debate, let me say that as Government, we are running a mine in the North-Western Province called Kasenseli Gold Mine. In fact, the Government owns 95 per cent of the mine while 5 per cent is owned by Chibwika Chiefdom. Basically, the mine is run 100 per cent by Zambians. That is an example.

Mr Speaker, the challenge that we have with gold today is that, as a country, we are working backwards. Why do I say so? All the gold that we are talking about was discovered by just local people who had gone to dig kandolo, as I always say. They discovered what is called alluvial gold. There are two types of gold. There is alluvial gold, which you can find after you dig the ground. Then there is gold in ore, which can be obtained from a proper gold mine. So, what is being discovered right now is mostly alluvial gold. Alluvial gold is the one that you can find after digging. Mucibemba, ukufolobola, which means you just dig and then discover gold. That is actually done by villagers.

Mr Speaker, why am I saying that we are working backwards? As a country, we should have done what President HH (Hakainde Hichilema) and the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government are doing now, which is mapping the country. Mapping the country will lead to knowledge of what minerals we have. We last mapped Zambia fifty years ago, and now technology has changed. This Government has taken the bold step of mapping the country and reforming the mining sector, even if we as a nation are working in reverse. That is why we have put a regulator in place to regulate the mining sector.

Mr Speaker, the New Dawn Government has said that Zambia has been mining for 100 years, and that Zambians have the capacity to run mines. That is why we are telling most of the investors who are coming to mine in different mine fields that 98 per cent of their workers must be Zambian workers. Why are we telling them that? It is because we know that Zambians are very capable of running mines. What we need to do is map the country and use science in mining. In Zambia today, the turnaround time for opening a mine is about fifteen years because one has to map, drill, and define the resource. The difference now is that our people are discovering alluvial gold, which does not need a big mine; it can be mined with a pick and shovel. That is why we need to promote artisanal miners. We have done that in Mumbwa, and now there is less noise because mining has been formalised.

Mr Speaker, we are already building gold marketing centers not only in Mufumbwe but all over the country, like the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security said. The gold marketing centres are being rolled-out all over the country and they will resolve the issues we are dealing with.

Mr Speaker, my time is running out, but one thing I want to say is that as leaders, we must be careful when we speak about gold. I heard one Opposition leader today ask the question: “Why should Zambians be called illegal miners? They should mine wherever they want to.” How can a leader talk like that? Guns were discovered in the areas where illegal miners were mining, but an opposition leader is asking why Zambians should be called illegal miners. That is as good as saying, “Why should we arrest thieves when they go and steal at Hon. Nkandu’s house? Let them steal because they are Zambians.” No, a country must have order and laws. We are talking about laws and order because we want people to mine in an orderly way. Only crooks benefit in the midst of confusion. When there is order, the country benefits.

Can the mining engineers, geologists or accountants we have trained go where there are guns and confusion?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Kabuswe: They cannot go there. First, we need order, Mr Speaker. The mapping exercise being undertaken by the Government will bring order. As the Government, we are not avoiding the fact that we need to deal with the issue concerning the alluvial gold that has been discovered. It is a pick-and-shovel activity. That is why we are giving co-operatives artisanal licences. We just have to ensure that we aggregate the activity. Hence, the formation of the Zambia Gold Company Limited (ZGCL), which the hon. Member talked about. It is now the aggregator. The company will move around the country to aggregate gold and take it to the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). That is what this Government is doing.

Mr Speaker, in supporting the hon. Member’s Motion, I think, I would say that we are already ten steps ahead of what he is suggesting.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Does it mean that there is a possibility of finding the other type of gold where alluvial gold is mined?

Mr Kabuswe: Mr Speaker, when alluvial gold is found, it means that there is gold ore. Gold is formed after a long time, then, it comes out of the ore and forms alluvial, which is, maybe, 99 per cent gold. However, mining gold ore is something else, as a mine has to be designed and exploration has to be undertaken. The challenge in Mufumbwe is that the miners are digging holes and heaping soil anyhow, and it is possible that there may also be gold where they heap the overburdened soil. That is why the activity needs to be done with proper science and mining, and we do not bury wealth. So, where there is alluvial gold, there is a hundred per cent chance of gold ore. That is why we need to map the area, undertake exploration and define the resource.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me a chance to speak on behalf of the people of Mufumbwe, especially that this issue concerns them.

Mr Speaker, I would like to take my sister’s debate here (pointed at Ms Sefulo) as my own. I also want to thank the ministry and the Government for being ahead of things. Things have, indeed, started happening. So far, we have started acquiring artisanal licences for our people. So, I take it that what the hon. Minister has said is what is happening in Mufumbwe. The people of Mufumbwe are waiting for the Government to actualise this Government Assurance. My hon. Colleagues should know that this was a Government Assurance given in this House, and the Committee on Government Assurances follows up on Government assurances. So, I am waiting for next year so that the Committee can visit Mufumbwe, and find that the people have artisanal licences.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

As the time is 1859 hours, I interrupt the proceedings and the debate lapses.

________

The House adjourned at 1859 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 17^th July, 2025.

_____________

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