Thursday, 30^th November, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice President, who is attending to other Government business, the Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Jacob Jack Mwiimbu, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today, 30^th November, 2023, until further notice.

I thank you.

PRESENCE OF THE ZAMBIAN SCOUTS GROUP ASSOCIATION

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of the Zambian Scouts Group Association from Lusaka District. On behalf of the National Assembly, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

PRESENCE OF DOMINICAN SISTERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of the Dominican Sisters of the Catholic Church based at the International Training Centre for Sisterhood Formation in Woodlands, Lusaka District. On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitors into our midst.

I thank you.

PRESENCE IN THE PUBLIC GALLERY OF MR GUIDO MASCHHAUNT, DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY CANDIDATE FROM ERASMUS UNIVERSITY, NETHERLANDS

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to recognise the presence in the Public Gallery of Mr Guido Maschhaunt, a Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) candidate at the International Institute of Social Studies based at the Erasmus University Rotterdam in the Netherlands. On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I warmly welcome our visitor into our midst.

I thank you.

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QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

KILLING OF BOY BY ZAMBIA NATIONAL SERVICE OFFICERS IN MUFULIRA

154. Mr Mabeta (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Defence:

1. what led to the killing of a fifteen-year-old boy of Kankoyo Mine Township in Mufulira District on Monday, 20^th November, 2023, by Zambia National Service (ZNS) officers;

1. what urgent measures are being taken to safeguard the lives of citizens in general; and

1. what punitive measures will be taken against the erring ZNS officers.

The Minister of Water Development and Sanitation (Mr Mposha) (on behalf of the Minister of Defence (Mr Lufuma)): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the ministry and the Zambia National Service (ZNS) Command, I wish to convey my sincere condolences to the family for the loss of life of the boy. I wish to express my sadness on the death of a fifteen-year-old boy by the name of Chrispin Bunda during the ZNS operations to curb illegal smuggling of maize and mealie meal in Kankoyo.

Madam Speaker, the shooting happened on 20^th November, 2023, between 1400 hours and 1600 hours when the troops deployed in Kankoyo received information from a concerned patriotic resident of Kankoyo that at a certain identified house, 4,000 by 25 kg bags of mealie meal were being offloaded and secured in a house of a known smuggler by the name of Mr Chishimba of House No. A137, Section A, Kankoyo Compound, who owns a number of bicycles and motorcycles. The exact location of the house was forwarded to the troops, and the troops went immediately to the scene. When they reached the scene, they found 52 by 25 kg bags of mealie meal outside the smuggler’s residence while a number of bicycles were being put inside the residence. The troops impounded the bags of mealie meal. When the smuggler and the bikers saw the troops moving towards them, they ran away. The smuggler eventually mobilised the locals in the neighborhood and started stoning the troops. Two of the troops were severely injured and the windscreen of a ZNS Toyota Landcruiser was smashed.

Madam Speaker, as the mob increased, the troops fired warning shots in the air to disperse the crowd. The troops were later reinforced and managed to leave the cordoned off scene. Later, there was a report from the police that a fifteen-year-old boy had been shot and eventually died. The matter has been brought to the attention of the service, and the Command is closely and keenly monitoring the investigations into it.

Madam Speaker, in order to deter the recurrence of such incidents, the troops have been cautioned to exercise maximum restraint and ensure that no civilian is injured.

Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Defence, through the ZNS Command, has withdrawn all the troops who were manning the post in Kankoyo while investigations by the ZNS and police are going on, and other troops have been deployed. The service is currently conducting internal investigations to establish the discharge of the round that allegedly killed the fifteen-year-old boy. Further, investigations are being conducted by the police to ascertain the source and cause of death. It is only after the investigations have been concluded and the cause of death established that I will come and inform this august House accordingly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mabeta: Madam Speaker, historically, Kankoyo has been known as a very hostile place. It is not the first time a young boy has been shot dead either by police officers or paramilitary officers because of the conduct of the community. Telling Zambia National Service (ZNS) officers to conduct an operation at that time of the day was not only risky to the community, but also to the officers, as that put them in an awkward situation. Who ordered the ZNS officers to conduct such an operation during the day, causing danger not only to the community, but also to the officers as well, as they could have been harmed?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We will come to the point of order after the hon. Minister responds.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I take note of the concern by the hon. Member of Parliament. We are all saddened by the loss of the fifteen-year-old boy. However, like I indicated, investigations are being carried out, and only after they are concluded will we have a detailed response in terms of what exactly happened on the material day. When we have that information, we will come and inform the House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There was an indication for a point of order by the hon. Member for Chitambo.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to raise this point of order.

Madam Speaker, you have always guided that Parliamentary business takes precedence. In this House, we are divided into two; the Executive and the Backbenchers. You can see that the Backbenchers are full in this House. Where is the Executive? There are four hon. Ministers; I can count them. Is the Executive in order to be absent in this House when we are approving the Budget, which is a very important document in this country?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chitambo, I know that you know that this House operates when there is a quorum. Whether the Executive is here or not, what is important is that there is a quorum and business continues.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It would have been better if all hon. Ministers were here because this is a Budget Meeting. However, some of them made arrangements on how to handle the Votes. So, because we have a quorum and business is proceeding, I think, the House is moving in the right direction. Had we not a quorum, then, it would have been worrying.

We make progress.

Hon. Member for Lunte, you may ask your question.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, after your ruling, I can see that the hon. Member for Mongu Central has joined the Frontbench.

Madam Speaker, on a serious note, allow me to pass my sympathy to the family that lost a child under uncalled-for circumstances. When mealie meal is found in a house in Zambia, that is not smuggling. Smuggling is products and services crossing the border illegally.

Madam Speaker, is the Acting hon. Minister considering taking this case to the Ministry of Justice for a consent judgement so that the family that has lost a child can expeditiously be compensated the way United Party for National Development (UPND) cadres are being compensated?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, like I said, this is a very sad incident. How I wish the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte did not politicise it in the manner that he did. We are saddened by the loss of such a young man. As the Government, we will ensure that all the necessary information is brought to our attention. Only after we have the necessary information will we decide what steps to take.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let me guide, hon. Members. I am sure, the family of the deceased is still mourning. So, let us be sensitive as we ask questions. Further, the matter is in court.

Mr Mabeta: Madam Speaker, I strongly sympathise with the family that lost its child. I have been in touch with the family, and I assured it that the Government will support it.

Madam Speaker, the Acting hon. Minister of Defence has said that ZNS officers are operating 25 km away from the community. Can he assure the people of Kankoyo that in future, they will not harass the people again? Maybe, the ministry should be engaging civic leaders, especially hon. Members of Parliament, who know the communities well before carrying out any operation so that we can work together without harming anyone.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kankoyo for this question.

Madam Speaker, like I indicated, the officers were urged to exercise maximum restraint to avoid injuring citizens. The purpose of deploying the security wings in an area is to safeguard property and citizens. It is regrettable that there was that incident, and measures have been put in place to ensure that there will be no such incident again.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, Standing Orders No. 74 and No. 76 refer to urgent questions under Questions for Oral Answer.

Madam Speaker, we are considering a very important question of urgent nature relating to a child who died under unfortunate circumstances. As a representative of the people of Lunte, I have an opportunity to ask the hon. Minister a question, which opportunity you gave me, but the hon. Minister accused me of politicking in your presence. Is it not true that consent judgements in the Ministry of Justice are happening every day? Is it not true that people who lose their children in this manner should be compensated? Where have I politicked by asking the hon. Minister whether he is considering taking this case to the Ministry of Justice so that the Government can consider compensating the family?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, according to the Standing Orders, when raising a point of order, you are supposed to be precise. However, you debated your point of order and gave answers. You indicated that the hon. Minister should only answer questions, not accuse you of politicking. You even brought out what the hon. Minister should not do. As Presiding Officer, I have no ruling to make because you debated the point of order.

Hon. Members, when you are raising points of order, be precise and avoid debating. Some points of order seem to be good, but you debate them and offer solutions.

I will allow the hon. Member for Kantanshi to ask a question, and as many hon. Members as possible.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, my condolences to the family in Kankoyo.

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. Minister’s response. I just want to add to the concerns that my colleague, Hon. Mabeta, raised. The hon. Minister said that the ministry deploys Zambia National Service (ZNS) staff for the purpose of providing security. In Kantanshi Constituency, particularly in Minambe, Mokambo and Murundu, ZNS staff ask for National Registration Cards (NRCs) every Wednesday and Friday from people who want to buy mealie meal, which is seriously decampaigning the New Dawn Government. When a person does not leave the NRC with ZNS staff, but buys a bag of mealie meal, that mealie meal is confiscated. The law is very clear. It is considered smuggling when one takes goods 50 m away from the border, but where the ZNS is, is 10 km away. I just want to understand the rationale behind the service that the ZNS is providing, thereby causing confusion in the community. Zambia Air Force (ZAF) officers went to somebody’s residence after being tipped off and found mealie meal there, which was considered smuggling, yet we have a liberalised economy. May the hon. Minister shed more light on why the ministry deployed ZNS officers to Mufulira.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank the Member for Kantanshi, Hon. Mumba, for this question.

Madam Speaker, like I indicated, there are many reasons the Government deploys security officers, particularly to border areas, but I will not go into the details. Those are security operations. Suffice it for me to say that the general rule is that security officers must protect property, our citizens and border lines. It is regrettable if the presence of security officers is creating problems, and the ministry will find out how residents are being inconvenienced.

Mr Chewe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, smuggling is taking commodities across the border, but it has a starting point in that before one goes to the border, one mobilises the commodities. In my response, I made it very clear that the officers were tipped off by a patriotic resident who pointed out that there were some activities at the house of a known smuggler. When the officers went to that house, they found many bags of mealie meal being loaded, some of them on bicycles. Obviously, hon. Members whose constituencies are border areas know the activities that take place there. So, I will not explain in detail why we send certain officers to particular areas. Those are defence and security operations. However, we have taken note of the hon. Member of Parliament’s concern that our citizens are being inconvenienced. If he has additional information, he can give us that information so that we can address the issue and avert the inconvenience that is being experienced by our citizens.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, if we spend too much time on points of order, we will delay like yesterday. We have a lot of work before us. Ask questions instead of raising points of order.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Speaker, ever since the Zambia National Service (ZNS) contingent was deployed to Mufulira, there has been a lot of consternation among the business people there. Even known traders with genuine licences who sell mealie meal are now considered smugglers and followed to their trading places. Other traders inherited businesses from their late fathers and have been selling mealie meal, but that mealie meal is being confiscated, and they are treated as smugglers. The anxiety that the ZNS contingent has caused in Mufulira led to the death of the young boy and, as long as it remains there and is not guided properly, we shall see more deaths of this unfortunate manner. My question is: Why are ZNS officers not collaborating with police officers when they want to engage the so-called smugglers in communities, not at borders, when police officers are the ones who are well trained to manage crowds?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mufulira for this question.

Madam Speaker, first of all, security officers do not work in isolation; they co-ordinate. It is not true that police officers are not involved in the operations. There is co-ordination, which might not be visible to the people. So, I assure the hon. Member that there is a lot of interaction, and linkages when officers are carrying out operations.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the traders being inconvenienced, again, I want to place it on record that we regret that inconvenience. However, citizens must begin to take responsibility. If there are 1,000 bags or 2,000 bags of mealie meal at a house, we have to find out if the owner of that house has a trading licence. With regard to traders being followed to established business places, I think, that is worth making a follow-up on to ensure that they are not inconvenienced. Established traders of mealie meal or other commodities should not be inconvenienced, and that is not the purpose of the deployment of officers. We want business to flourish, but we must understand that if we allow maize to exit the country through artificial borders by not putting in place security measures, our people will not have the much-needed staple food. It is the responsibility of the Government to secure borders and stop the movement of commodities through artificial borders.

Madam Speaker, I appeal to the citizens in border areas to co-operate with the security wings so that the two parties are not seen to be antagonistic and at each other’s throats. The police and security wings are there to protect our citizens. If hon. Members of Parliament whose constituencies are in border areas strongly feel that citizens are being inconvenienced, they ought not to wait until such a question is asked to bring that to our attention. Our offices are open. Hon. Members should come and tell us about the wrong happenings so that we can caution the officers who have been deployed to border areas.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I have similar sentiments to those of my colleague from Kankoyo because we face similar dilemmas.

Madam Speaker, the Zambia National Service’s (ZNS’s) mandate is to train citizens to serve the Republic and give its members tasks of national importance, which include service and defence of the Republic. Over time, the role has expanded to include agriculture, livestock, aquaculture and industrial production. When ZNS officers are deployed to border areas like Mufulira and Mushindamo, are they performing their mandate? Everyone should respond to this question. For me, I feel –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question, hon. Member?

Mr Katakwe: I am building my question, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We are behind time.

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, a life lost anywhere is a life lost everywhere. Matters of life need to be considered with the urgency they deserve.

Madam Speaker, at one time, we provided a solution regarding ZNS officers in Mushindamo. There is a market for commodities across the border, but when citizens want to sell even one meda of maize for them to buy medicine or pay their children’s school fees, they are stopped from doing that. Some of us have lived in that area since we were young and we have the solution. The officers the Government deploys to certain areas do not understand the dynamics of the people in those areas. When they see somebody with maize, they beat that person, confiscate the maize and, later on, sell it. Where do they take the money? Meanwhile, the big guys with trucks are allowed to trade. What is going on? We need to provide solutions and safeguard the lives of our people. Is it possible for the ministry to call an urgent meeting between we, who stay in border areas, and the officers from the ZNS and other defence forces so that we can provide solutions together?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank my brother for this question.

Madam Speaker, it is possible to call for a meeting. Like I indicated earlier, we are open to that kind of engagement for the good of our people. Again, I appeal to hon. Members of Parliament with constituencies that share borders with the neighbouring countries – We are open to getting advice and hearing exactly what is happening on the ground.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, the people of Mandevu are worried that the money that is supposed to be used to develop their roads and drainages is being used to compensate people because of the unprofessional behaviour of our men and women in uniform. Is the Government considering recovering monies that are being paid to compensate victims of our men and women in uniform’s unprofessional behaviour when the State, through the courts, rules that an officer acted outside the law?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mandevu, that is a new question on compensation. The questions before us are: What led to the killing of a fifteen-year-old boy in Kankoyo? What urgent measures are being taken to safeguard the lives of the citizens in general? What punitive measures will be taken against the erring Zambia National Service (ZNS) officer? So, that is a different question altogether.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I wish the substantive hon. Minister was here to answer this question, but that is beyond our control. Let me also pass my sincere condolences to the family of the fifteen-year-old boy who was gunned down.

Madam Speaker, part of my question has been asked by Hon. Mwila. There is an outcry about the Zambia National Service (ZNS) not doing its work properly. Is the hon. Minister not considering sitting down with his counterpart in the Ministry of Home Affairs and Internal Security so that they can substitute ZNS officers with police officers, who are well trained in crowd control, in manning border areas?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, like I indicated earlier, security operations are usually joint operations done at the district or provincial level. The Zambia Police Service always co-ordinates with the defence wings. So, there is already a linkage. It is not a question of police officers replacing ZNS officers. The authorities are alive to the fact that a particular wing is more suitable to undertake an operation in the areas we are talking about. Suffice it for me to say that the Zambia Police Service always co-ordinates with the defence wings.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, let me also pass my sympathy to the family in Kankoyo that lost its child. I also commiserate with the family from Mwensa, in particular, Kashiba, whose child was shot by Zambia National Service (ZNS) officers and is still hospitalised in the University Teaching Hospital (UTH).

Madam Speaker, Cap. 21 of the Zambia Revenue Authority Act addresses smuggling. The hon. Minister of Justice will agree with me that smuggling is when goods are taken across the border, not inland. The people who are aggrieved may take the State to court and they will have a leg to stand on. What authority is the ministry using to deploy military personnel, who are collecting goods that are being traded by Zambians and calling Zambians smugglers, which is against the law? Can the hon. Minister tell the Zambian people, we, Parliamentarians, and the hon. Minister of Justice what smuggling is? Smuggling is when goods are taken across the border, and one cannot say that it is smuggling when goods are being sold within Zambia.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Pambashe for this question. If he heard me clearly, he knows that I did not say that trading inland is smuggling. What I said is that our troops received information to the effect that at a particular house, many bags of mealie meal were being loaded and they went there to check what was happening. Apparently, the owner of that house is a well-known smuggler. I am not saying that since he is a well-known smuggler, he is smuggling by trading inland. He is a smuggler because he is well-known for mopping up commodities and taking them across the border. According to Cap. 21 of the Zambia Revenue Authority Act, which the hon. Member referred to, when people mop up mealie meal or other commodities and take them across the border, they are smuggling, and it is the Government’s responsibility to arrest wrongdoing.

Madam Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to appeal to the people on the Copperbelt, as sad as the incident is, to co-operate with the security wings so that they do not create unnecessary agitation that can result in a confrontation with the security wings. Each one of us must take responsibility. I also appeal to the civic leaders, the hon. Members of Parliament, to assist in restoring order. Assaulting security officers in uniform is uncalled for. It is wrong and not a good practice. So, I appeal to the residents in the border towns to co-operate with the security wings. Security officers are there to maintain law, order and peace, and serve the citizens.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, are some of the assertions true? Further, is the hon. Minister going to provide security for the security officers? It is alleged that the officers who were deployed to carry out the operation were at risk. The officer who was behind the shooting, though not identified, would have been killed by the mob that was agitated by that operation. It is alleged that the officer lost a firearm in the process and fell into a drainage. In trying to save his life, he had no option, but to open fire. If this assertion is true, how safe are our security officers when undertaking such an operation? Going forward, security officers should collaborate with civic leaders so that they are not put in harm’s way again.

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kambita for this question.

Madam Speaker, our security officers are well trained for such operations. Obviously, when they encounter a situation in which people are agitated, they get overwhelmed, and it is normal for such to happen. Like I indicated, let us allow the investigations to be concluded. Thereafter, we will be well informed concerning the assertions. Otherwise, we will end up jeopardising the investigations that are ongoing.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I agree with you.

The hon. Member for Masaiti will ask the last question.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Madam Speaker, deploying trigger-happy Zambia National Service (ZNS) officers in compounds and townships is making the Government’s popularity to decline, and that is a fact. Is the hon. Minister reconsidering deploying ZNS officers in such operations?

Mr Mposha: Madam Speaker, with due respect, I do not know what the hon. Member is implying when he says “trigger-happy” officers because our officers are sober. However, the assertion that Hon. Kambita put across is that there was some agitation. I stated that we have observed, with great concern, that there is a growing trend in which members of the society are being incited to get agitated and attack officers. When that happens, one cannot say the officers are trigger-happy. Let us be responsible because the officers are our citizens and are there to serve the country. I also appeal to the officers to operate in a sober way so that they serve our people particularly those on the Copperbelt, well.

Madam Speaker, I explained that the people who attacked the officers were mobilised by a known smuggler and other people in the neighbourhood, and a Government vehicle was damaged. So, from that narration, one can see that there was an organised grouping that attacked the officers. We shall give more details when the investigations are concluded. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is here and police officers are doing their work. The Government will not allow people to mobilise citizens to attack an officer to the extent of his losing a firearm. That is uncalled for. We hope to get enough information as quickly as possible so that those who were involved in the crime are identified and the law visits them.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE MARRIAGE (Amendment) BILL, 2023

Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE– (Repeal and Replacement of Section 33 Void Marriage)

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment after on page 3, after line 12, by the insertion of the following new Clause immediately after clause 3:

Repeal and replacement                     4. The principal act is amended by

of section 34                          repeal of section 34 and the substitution therefor

                                             of the following:

Marriage under African

customary law                                   34. (1) Nothing contained in this Act shall

                                             affect the validity of any marriage contracted

                                             under or in accordance with any African

                                             customary law, or in any manner apply to

                                             marriages so contracted.

                                                         (2) Despite subsection (1), section 33 shall

                                             apply to a marriage contracted under or in

                                             accordance with any African customary law.

                                                         (3) any person who is married under this

                                             Act or whose marriage is declared by this Act to

                                             be valid, shall be incapable during the

                                             continuance of such marriage of contracting a

                                             valid marriage under any African customary law.

New Clause accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Marriage (Amendment) Bill, 2023

Report Stage on Friday, 1^st December, 2023.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Trade Marks Bill, 2023

_______

MOTION

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 26 – (Ministry of Information and Media – K190,845,686)

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the budget for the Ministry of Information and Media.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Information and Media is the mirror of society. It is said that one will only be known when one speaks. There is the Bemba saying that “landa uyisulishe” meaning that you can only know the calibre of a person when that person speaks. So, the image of Zambia is projected through the way the Ministry of Information and Media disseminates information and allows citizens to express themselves. Citizens must be allowed to express themselves. When my younger brother, the hon. Minister of Information and Media, and I came to Parliament, we were coached by the late Speaker, Hon. Amusaa Mwanamwambwa, who told us that Parliament comprised hon. Members of Parliament who were supposed to speak. Speaking is a fundamental human right. So, people must be allowed to speak. We must understand that divergent views are key – (Mr Chitotela put his hands in his pocket)

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

A point of order is raised by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, on the manner of speaking.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe is well aware that when one’s addressing elderly people like me, one’s hands ought not to be in one’s pocket.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: It is a sign of disrespect for those of us who are a little older than him for him to place his hands in his pocket. More seriously, it is a convention and a mark of respect that when one is referring to the departed, such as the late Rt. Hon. Speaker Mwanamwambwa, one says ‘may his soul continue to rest in peace’. Is the hon. Member in order to breach those two conventions by speaking very cheekily with his hands in his pockets to elders like me and to refer to the respectable and revered late Hon. Speaker Mwanamwambwa, may his soul rest in peace?

I seek your ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member for Pambashe, Mr Chitotela, this House has etiquette that we have to conform to. Putting your hand in your pocket is not one of them. So, desist from doing that. Maybe, you are touching your cellular phone but ...

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: ... avoid doing that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue.

Mr Chitotela: Mr Chairperson, I have taken note. May the soul of the late Hon. Speaker rest in peace. He was a man I held in very high esteem, and I learnt a lot from him when I came to Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, both the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipata Central and the hon. Member of Parliament for Luangeni have sweets in their mouths. So, they cannot speak (laughs) for Paramount Chief Mpezeni, and I will speak for him.

Mr Chairperson, on a serious note, we must realise that freedom of expression is a fundamental human right. The Constitution and various pieces of legislation beef up that fundamental right. Where one’s rights end, another person’s rights begin. However, having a situation in which people are gagged from expressing themselves does not portray a good image of Zambia. We must let people express themselves within the confines of the law.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the freedom of media houses, we have seen journalists being bundled and harassed when they are merely carrying out their functions. I saw an inscription on one of the buses that read “Do not hate the messenger, hate the message.” Do not beat the person delivering the message because he/she is just a conduit.

Mr Chairperson, I commend the hon. Minister because in the past two years, no media house has been closed, but there has been muzzling of freedom of expression. The hon. Minister might not be aware that when Hot FM Radio hosted one of the commentators, the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) wrote a letter to the radio station, directing it on how to run the programme. Let us allow people to express themselves. If people come into conflict with the law, the law will take its course. We must not gag the people from expressing themselves. We must not direct how a person speaks. When I speak, I must decide to not speak in a certain way.

Mr Chairperson, when I was growing up, my late father, may his soul continue resting in peace, would tell us that our conduct out there in public reflected our home and that “Imfumu tayupila mupabi, ninshi wasanguka umupabi”, meaning if one comes from a royal family, one cannot marry from within the subjects because one would become a subject. We no longer follow that principle today. In the past, a chief would go everywhere, dictating how people should live.

Mr Chairperson, we passed the Access to Information Bill, which is very critical to the dissemination of information. However, we must bear in mind the security of the nation. We must disseminate information without compromising security because when there is no security in the country, there will not be any meaningful investment, and there will not be peace. So, both the private and the public media should churn out viable, truthful and verifiable information, not information aimed at injuring people’s reputations. When the Government speaks, people believe, and it must be the last institution to use propaganda. Government information must be based on policy and legislative frameworks, not opinions or feelings. Governments across the globe have procedures. Bureaucratic tendencies are created to offer oversight and control on all of us so that we do not go outside the parameters and structures within the Government system.

Mr Chairperson, at one time, when a person appeared on a radio programme, an uninvited guest went to that radio station and said that he wanted to join the debate. I have been in politics for a long time. When you are seated on the left, you see the people on the right using a different lens. When you go to the right and become Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, what you were seeing as red becomes green and what you were seeing as green becomes red. So, we must be focused. If something was red when you were on the left, it must be red when you are on the right.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on Vote 26, which is for the Ministry of Information and Media.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I will comment on the importance of communicating to the masses concerning the development and what is going on in the country. Communication is important because it brings harmony. It also brings people to the same footing in terms of understanding what is going on, without which people speculate. When you allow people to speculate, criticism increases because people criticise from an uninformed point of view. However, when people are well informed, they find it difficult to criticise because they know what you are doing. That is why information is very important, and I support wholly this Budget line. So, this ministry must be fully funded, and given much more than what it has been given.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CDF seems to be one very important policy direction that the President pronounced on the Floor of this House, as demonstrated by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s appropriation in the Budget. Today, the CDF is over K30 million per constituency, meaning that many activities will be undertaken using this funding. However, the information being disseminated, especially in the public media, is not commensurate with the activities being undertaken in the constituencies. We are left with no option, but to disseminate information about the activities using social media. I have, on two occasions, requested for the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) to cover the handover of CDF projects, and profile on-going projects in Zambezi East so that the public knows what is going on or what their Government is doing, which would be to the advantage to the Government, yet I hit a snag. The ZNBC will show you lengthy processes of applying for this and that and will bring in the Marketing Department, but we do not have that time. I will simply get into my vehicle, go to Zambezi and take pictures. Those interested can cover my events. If not, I let it go. The people in Zambezi will know about the projects, but how about those outside Zambezi? How will they know how much has been achieved with the CDF, which the President is so passionate about?

Mr Chairperson, there must be a deliberate forum to inform people about the CDF. We, hon. Members of Parliament, must be at liberty to pick up reporters from ZNBC to cover the activities in the constituencies, and that is very important. There are many activities benefiting the poor people whose lives we endeavour to uplift. Therefore, those people seeing themselves on television and knowing what is going on is very important.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to address the hon. Minister of Information and Media. He should prevail on the operations of ZNBC. If we are calling the CDF a game-changer, it must have prime time on ZNBC and be promoted. However, will it be promoted without engaging us, hon. Members of Parliament, and if it is difficult for me to go with a reporter to the constituency? These are the issues that we need to talk about, and I just wanted to talk about them.

Mr Chairperson, I think, the Access to Information Bill has come at the right time. We have struggled in past years. No Government showed willingness to make that law operational apart from this Government of the New Dawn Administration.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: This Government has demonstrated the will to walk the talk. When we were in the Opposition, we promised that we would make sure that there is access to information. We also promised to open all media houses that had been wantonly closed for political reasons by these people here (pointing at hon. PF Members).

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Mr Chairperson, true to the President’s word, no sooner did we take over power than we had Prime Television opened. Which other radio stations were reopened? Many radio stations that had been closed wantonly, such as Kamboni Radio, were reopened and are operational. That goes to show that there is now freedom of expression in the country. As you can see, most opposition hon. Members of Parliament are allowed to say anything, except cross paths with the law. Of course, the President has repeatedly mentioned that where one’s freedom of speech ends is where another person’s begins. People can now express themselves and comment on issues concerning Konkola Copper Mines (KCM).

Mr Chairperson, I am reminded about a question I asked the Acting hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development yesterday or the day before yesterday, concerning mining, which was deliberate. I was not attacking my Government, but was sending a message to it to scale-up its communication with the people. Let the people hear us as often as possible. Let the information on the milestones we have achieved, including the reopening of the KCM, be propagated. Let us give people hope. Let the people of the Copperbelt know that they have a real deal in the UPND. We should not veil information from the people. Information is key. That is the only way we are going to get trust from people. People should know many things, such as things to do with Kasenseli. They should know how the Government plans to open the gold mine in Mwinilunga. We need to talk about such things very often and break down issues into smaller units for the people to understand.

Mr Samakayi: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Without such, people will speculate. I began by saying that people speculate in the absence of information. We need to up the game. That is why this ministry is key.

Mr Chairperson, I congratulate Hon. Mweetwa on being appointed Minister of Information and Media. He deserves the position, and I know that he is equal to the task. He should call on many of us who can propagate information and explain the Government’s position.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to add my voice, on behalf of the people of Chama North, to the debate on this very important Vote, which is for the Ministry of Information and Media.

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I want to state that I reluctantly support this budget.

Mr Samakayi: Question!

Mr Mtayachalo: I say so because the K190 million allocated to this critical ministry is inadequate. The ministry has a mammoth task. Just like other debaters have said, people should feel its presence in all the districts in this country, but the K190 million allocated to it is a drop in the ocean.

Mr Chairperson, public media houses, such as the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS), the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail have serious operational challenges. ZANIS officers in most areas do not even have motor vehicles and cameras, and these things need to be bought. So, K190 million is honestly a drop in the ocean. The hon. Minister must present a Supplementary Budget so that this ministry can operate effectively. The ministry is headed by a very energetic person, just like the predecessor, and he want things to move. However, I feel, the K190 million is not adequate.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that there are no ZANIS offices in some districts in this country. Chama is one of the oldest districts in this country, but there is no ZANIS office there. We depend on Lundazi, Chipata and Chinsali. We brought up this issue in this House, and I am happy that the previous hon. Minister of Information and Media did quite a lot. I want to inform the current hon. Minister that the people of Chama were assured on the Floor of this House that they were going to be given a ZANIS officer and equipment. We also want our Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects to be seen on ZNBC. So, indeed, this ministry has a mammoth task, especially on issues of CDF. Some people think that hon. Members of Parliament are not working because ZNBC does not show the developments in several constituencies in this country.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the Access to Information Bill. It is good that the Bill was presented in this House. I know that it has been a marathon and it has taken twenty-one years for it to be considered. We want laws to be implemented. This country is very good at making laws, but those laws become academic. I know that some stakeholders expressed certain reservations about the law in question. It is important that we engage civil society organisations (CSOs) who are concerned that they are not effectively represented on the commission. Some people also feel that there is no adequate protection for whistle-blowers. So, before the Bill is enacted into law, I think, we must take these issues into account.

Mr Chairperson, let me come to the issue of poor working conditions for journalists. It is a fact that journalists, both in the private and public media, work under poor conditions, and I appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure that they are paid handsomely. I have been a friend of both the public and private media for the past twenty-seven years, and I am alive to the fact that journalists go through many challenges. Some media houses do not even allow unionisation. I think, it must be made mandatory for media houses to have unions so that the unions bargain for workers in the media industry.

Mr Chairperson, I am also alive to the fact that there are so many challenges that media houses face in this country. For example, they pay too many taxes. We have given tax incentives to mines and the tourism sector, but we have not given any to the media sector. Media houses spend a lot of money on consumables, such as ink, and newsprint is quite expensive. These are some of the things that we must bring forward to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. The Government can even suspend import duty on some consumables that media houses buy. For example, in 1995, when we had a problem with transport, the Chiluba Government suspended duty on buses for one year and, within that period, transport challenges were completely resolved.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that media personnel go through many challenges. They have become endangered species, especially when there is a change of Government. I think, that mentality must come to an end. Those officers do not belong to any political party. Persecution of media personnel has continued even under the New Dawn Government. Why are we changing Governments if they all do the same things? Recently, two workers, an Assistant Online Editor and a Photographer, at the Zambia Daily Mail newspaper were dismissed for getting photographs of people queueing up for mealie meal in Ndola. That is very sad.

Mr Chairperson, I encourage the Zambia Union of Journalists (ZUS) to be proactive. Why does the union allow employers to intimidate and fire workers just like that? When I was in a trade union, we did not allow that. It is sad that unions have remained quiet when many media personnel have been fired just because there has been a change of Government. I feel that we, as a country, are not moving forward. So, I call upon this New Dawn Government to discard the old habits. These people have families to look after.

Mr Chairperson, there are many taxes that have been imposed on the media sector. Let us try by all means to provide incentives to the sector because it faces a mammoth task in disseminating information so that Zambians can make informed decisions.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I reluctantly support this budget. I expect more funds to be allocated to this Vote.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mapani (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to add a few words to the debate on this important Vote on the Floor of this House.

Mr Chairperson, the mandate of the ministry is clearly stated in the Act under which it operates. From the word go, I support the allocation. Further, it is important to indicate that the allocation has been increased, compared with last year’s. The amount is quite reasonable, and a few things can be done towards bettering the ministry. It is also important to indicate that the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS), one of the most important media institutions, ought to be well funded, this time around, so that it can continue collecting information from the rural set-ups. The people in the rural set-ups are not second-class citizens. They equally want to know what is happening in urban areas. Similarly, they have information they would want to send to the Central Government and people in urban areas so that they can be heard as well on the happenings in their areas.

Mr Chairperson, it is important to indicate that during the agricultural season, electronic agricultural information ought to reach people in the rural set-ups so that they can use it to improve the agricultural sector. When there are diseases in the country, even people from the rural setup would also want to have information on that.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is important for the country to be a democratic State. Information is power. People ought to have the freedom to disseminate information amongst their supporters, and this is one of the contributing factors to the attainment of good governance. So, freedom of speech cannot be realised if the ministry responsible does not allow citizens to enjoy it. Previously, we saw how citizens, at some point, were not allowed to disseminate information to their supporters, and that brought about a lot of confusion in this country. From the time the New Dawn Government came into power, we have seen people enjoy their rights and move from one point to another, sharing information with their people, and allowing the freedom of assembly and association. That contributes positively to the political situation in the country because people compete using the grey matter, which was not the case before. Fighting is no longer a plus for any political situation in any given country. People ought to challenge one another through information or ideas.

With those few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya (Mansa Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, the role of the Ministry of Information and Media, in summary (reading from his cellular phone) is to formulate and administer policy guidelines, regulations and laws on broadcasting services, such as cinematography and information services. My attention is immediately drawn to the ministry’s vision, which is:

“Countrywide media coverage for a well-informed society.”

Mr Chairperson, the attendant mission statement is:

“To promote and facilitate the growth of a sustainable media industry capable of enhancing the free flow of information, freedom of expression and national development.”

Mr Chairperson, in light of the above, I am ashamed to say that this ministry is failing to provide leadership on this score because it seems moribund regarding the advancement of the virtues of freedom of expression and free flow of information.

Mr Andeleki: Question!

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, the Executive, through this ministry, has, in the last two years, done little, if not nothing. It has done everything to shut down the democratic space required for free expression …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Dr Chilufya: … to flourish.

Mr Chairperson, no amount of “Question!” will succeed in deterring this presentation, and it is important that our colleagues on the right listen to dissenting voices. If our colleagues do not want to listen to us here, let them listen to the civil society, the Zambia Conference of Catholic Bishops (ZCCB) and the Council of Churches in Zambia (CCZ).

Mr Chairperson, freedom of expression is the life blood of our democracy and is the expression of life itself. One cannot enjoy life without freedom of expression. Under the weight of a heavy-handed police service, we have seen all avenues of free expression blocked, and this ministry has done very little to open up and enhance the democratic space for citizens. Conversely, the ministry has always sought to fill up the remaining small spaces with monolithic statements, and narratives from the Executive and the Ruling Party only. Information flow in this country has –

Mr Nkombo: On point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, again, I rise pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, on the rules of debate.

Mr Chairperson, you can see that the hon. Member on the Floor is referring to some text from his cellular phone. He is reading his debate, which is not allowed. The last time I checked, you allowed using copious notes or bullet points when debating. However, the hon. Member is even intensifying his reading as he is seated there. Is he in order to be reading text, which we do know where it comes from or whether someone sent it to him, probably, through WhatsApp, instead of adhering to the rules of debate? As you rule, my humble request is that you ask him to put his cellular phone into his pocket.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member for Mansa Central, desist from using the gadget. I know, you are a capable hon. Member. You can debate from your head. So, put the gadget into the pocket, as long as you will not keep touching the pocket. You are not allowed to read.

You may continue.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development was born before computers and is used to writing notes using a pen. Therefore, he is comfortable holding hard copy documents when reading. However, nowadays, one can actually write on a pad or cellular phone, and that does not contravene the rules of this House.

Be educated on that, you are a graduate (pointing at Hon. Nkombo).

Laughter

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, thank you for the guidance. Let me proceed.

Mr Chairperson, I am very much aware that whenever my experienced colleague hears debate that is not very conducive for the Executive, he cuts in. It is a skill, and it is called ‘politics’. However, I will continue referring to my copious notes.

Mr Chairperson, it is important to note that the democratic space under this Government has shrunk. If our colleagues do not want to listen to the Opposition, they should listen to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the ZCCB, the CCZ, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) and the common person out there, and they will manage appropriately.

Mr Chairperson, the role of the Ministry of Information and Media is to enhance information flow in this country but, at the moment, I say it is monolithic. Information flow has not been this monolithic, whereby one privileged group is able to just direct the narrative without giving the opportunity to anybody with dissenting views. This is not the role of this ministry. Diversity needs to be accommodated. Restricting people’s liberty is an affront to our democracy, especially to freedom of expression. Those in the Government must not think that uncontrolled free expression will create an opportunity for them to govern without scrutiny. Uncontrolled free expression must not be conceived to create diseased freedom. Misapprehension is what I would call this. The aspirations of the nations are for a democratic state where individual liberties are assured, and freedom of expression is an enabler of more freedom.

Mr Chairperson, let us avoid condescending to, and patronising, our people. The voters, who are in charge and put us into power, must be respected and have adequate access to information. This is the reason I appreciate the hon. Minister of Information and Media for presenting the Access to Information Bill in the House. Human rights demand that citizens access information as they will, and that is a fundamental human right. So, I appreciate the hon. Minister for presenting the Access to Information Bill in the House.

Mr Chairperson, the elitists teach us that there will always be conflict between order and freedom. Therefore, there should be a careful balance between the two in a civilised society. If this ministry will continue supporting our democracy, let it be seen to be a champion of freedom of expression. At the moment, what we see is to the contrary.

Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister responds to my discourse, he should avoid setting the Patriotic Front (PF) as his benchmark, because that is the common statement that he likes in his response. If the PF Government did not do well, that should not be his benchmark. His benchmark must be what his party promised the people of Zambia, which is to improve the democratic space and ensure that the freedom of expression is assured. Therefore, he should not set the bar low for his Government.

Mr Chairperson, I want to emphasise that this ministry is critical to our democracy and must be seen at all times to promote freedom of expression. The public media must not only cover the Executive, but also the Opposition, and that must be the hon. Minister’s benchmark. Referring to previous regimes that did not do well on that score is an assault on the social contract that our colleagues signed with the people of this country, which they promised to improve. So, I expect to not hear words like ‘the PF Government at the time’ from the hon. Minister’s response.

Mr Chairperson, I support this Vote, and I urge the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to improve its budgetary allocation so that journalists are well remunerated and media coverage is well enhanced.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Mr Chairperson, let me join other debaters by outrightly stating my dissenting views on the allocation of K190.8 million to this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, this is a very sensitive Vote that needs more money. I want the hon. Minister to know that I am not satisfied with the money that has been allocated to the ministry because of the nature of work that the ministry is engaged in.

Mr Chairperson, using K190.8 million, this ministry will have to implement three programmes, which I will not want talk about. I want to talk about the strategies of the ministry, and one of them is to contribute to the dissemination of accurate information. What has been happening of late is worrying. We want accurate information from the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), the Zambia News and Information Service (ZANIS), Times of Zambia, Daily Mail and other institutions that fall under the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry should also embark on vigorous publicity of Government programmes and projects, especially Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects, in order for the public to appreciate what the Government is doing. The enhanced CDF is a flag carrier of the New Dawn Government and His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema. If the Government just disseminates the monies, yet people do not know what those monies are being used for, it becomes a race in futility. In Roan Constituency, a number of projects have been implemented using the CDF, but how are the people going to know about them? There are projects being implemented in Hon. Nyambose’s and Hon. Mung’andu’s constituencies, but people are not able to appreciate what is happening because the ZNBC is incapacitated.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Mr J. Chibuye: Mr Chairperson, I will not hire a taxi to take ZNBC staff from Kitwe to Roan Constituency to cover Government programmes and I will not give them allowances because it the ministry that is supposed to pay them. That is why we are saying that the money that has been allocated to this ministry is not enough. How are people going to know about the projects when ZANIS officers in Luanshya District do not even have a camera, motor vehicle or public address (PA) system.

Mr Chairperson, in my constituency, twenty-six projects are being implemented, but only a few people know about them because I opened a Facebook page using my money. The onus is on the ministry to make sure that the masses know what the Government is doing not only in Luanshya, but also countrywide. The people will only know about that when ZANIS and ZNBC officers are equipped so that they move from one constituency to another. Then, we will say that the Government is working. People do not know what is happening in my constituency. Why should I pay ZNBC officers to make a documentary about what is happening there?

Mr Chairperson, the money is not enough. So, we want a Supplementary Budget. The hon. Minister of Media and Information should tell his counterpart, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, whom we know is a listening Minister, to increase the budget for the ministry so that the ministry can buy vehicles and PA systems for the ZANIS offices in Luanshya District, Chama and Chasefu. When we wanted to monitor projects, we sent a vehicle to the ZNBC Office in Kitwe to pickup reporters. Four reporters were picked up, and that was the same vehicle I and some officers from the council, who were the supervisors, were supposed to jump on, but we could not fit in it. So, the ZNBC and ZANIS officers need to have equipment and vehicles. Sometimes, when Ministers and the President visit constituencies and want to address the people, there is no PA system because ZANIS officers do not have one, and that is embarrassing. The officers have to go to Ndola to get old PA systems and, sometimes, they even fail to find any systems. We want the hon. Minister to start doing what the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is doing. So, the hon. Minister should find money and buy vehicles for ZANIS so that ZANIS and the ZNBC can be equipped.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye: Mr Chairperson, I do not want to see what used to happen previously because I am a victim of it. I would not be covered by ZANIS or the ZNBC simply because some chairperson had warned the journalists that they would be fired if they covered me. The hon. Minister should make a change. Even if I am an Independent Member, I need to be covered by ZANIS and the ZNBC. Journalists should not be told that they will lose their jobs because of covering an Opposition or Independent Member. We know that the hon. Minister is capable, and we want to see change. The New Dawn Government wants to bring change. We all want to be covered.

Mr Chairperson, that brings me to the issue of interviews. I have observed that only hon. Ministers and Government officials appear on the Sunday Interview programme. The presenter should host Opposition Members like Hon. Mung’andu, Hon. Mtayachalo, Hon. Nyambose, Hon. Dr Chitalu Chilufya and me on the programme. That way, the hon. Minister will be judged correctly. I know that the Wagners never fell. I encourage the hon. Minister to work tirelessly and line up things properly so that all of us can support even more this Vote next year.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, this ministry needs more money so that Government programmes can be implemented, and it can procure equipment for the ZNBC, ZANIS and other institutions. More money should be allocated to this ministry so that the Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail newspapers operate in uniformity.

Mr Chairperson, I sincerely thank you for according me the opportunity to air my views on this Vote.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity. I really needed to add my voice to the debate on this very important Vote, the one for the Ministry of Information and Media.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I want to indicate that I have been a keen participant in the governance process in Zambia since 2001, when I was working for the Foundation for Democratic Process (FODEP), and the issue of media coverage would take centre stage. With that history and what I am seeing now, I really commend our Government for striving hard to provide balanced media coverage to all players in the political and governance processes.

Mr Chairperson, I listened to the debate of the Independent hon. Member of Parliament. I think, we need to orient the people in the media so that they align themselves with the aspirations of the New Dawn Government, which wants to see to it that every player is covered. You will agree with me that we see members of opposition political parties in the media, but their appearance on other programmes, I think, is a matter of programming by the people responsible. Otherwise, I am in the Ruling Party but, I feel, ZANIS officers in Kafue are not doing enough. Nobody stops them from doing what is good for all of us here, especially showcasing Constituency Development Fund (CDF) projects in our communities, like the handover of a police post by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security that I just witnessed.

Mr Chairperson, there is a need to regulate social media, as it has made everybody become reporters in their own way. I have in mind a video that is currently circulating of students who were enrolled in Kafue. The impression that has been created is that the CDF Committee in Kafue is subjecting the students to unsanitary conditions, which is not the correct position. The point I am making is that reporters need reorientation and retraining so that they move away from non-factual and unresearched reports that are highly sensationalised because they cause unnecessary alarm in the public. So, I want to put it on record that the students in the video circulating are not being sponsored by the CDF Committee in Kafue. However, we sympathise with the situation, and that is a wake-up call. The Government needs to deal with unscrupulous people who are taking advantage of the CDF to provide sub-standard conditions and programmes to our youths. I am aware that a team of senior Government officials is following up that matter, and I am sure that those people will be brought to book.

Mr Chairperson, I want to take this opportunity to remind journalists, especially the self-proclaimed ones, who go on social media and propagate unconfirmed information that they will suffer the consequences of doing that, and I include those involved in cyber-bullying and other illegalities, such as scamming, on social media. I think, that is where we need to direct our energies as we look at how best to serve Zambians.

Mr Chairperson, somebody is impersonating me on social media and is trying to get money from people. Some people were almost swindled, but they were intelligent and sent the money to me because they know me. When I followed up as to why those people were sending me money, I discovered that they were scammed. So, we need to enhance the laws. The Ministry of Information and Media should collaborate closely with the Ministry of Technology and Science and the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA), in particular, to curb these illegalities. Otherwise, most people will be victims.

Mr Chairperson, the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) must ensure that media houses adhere to the regulations in place. Otherwise, media houses will continue reporting false information, thereby causing unnecessary alarm in the nation.

Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to set the record straight and encourage the ministry to continue providing balanced media coverage to all players in the governance process.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Mr Chairperson, the world over, it is conventionally known that there are three arms of the government, those being the Legislature, the Judiciary and the Executive. There is also what is known as the fourth estate, which is the media. The media is called the fourth estate because it provides an unofficial platform for disseminating information to the public for the public to use in providing checks and balances on the Government.

Mr Chairperson, I support the budgetary allocation and take note of the complaints from my colleagues, both from the left and the right, who wished that the allocation was a little more. I concur with their sentiments, save to say that we have to cut the suit according to the size of the cloth. The task ahead of my colleague and younger brother, Hon. Mweetwa, of running this ministry is a mammoth one. Reversing all the bad things that may have been associated with media management in this country is no easy task. So, I encourage my hon. Colleague to remember that the success of any media depends on the governance mode. There is an authoritarian type of governance, which is currently non-existent, going by the President’s drive to remove from the statutes the defamation of the President law. Some people think that came by default; it was by design. That was done so that people can have freedom of expression while realising the fact that where one’s rights end is where one’s rights begin or vice-versa.

Mr Chairperson, in order for us to make a correct assessment of the media situation in this country, we have no option, but to compare and contrast what used to happen before, what is happening now ...

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: … and what we want to see happen in the future.

Mr Chairperson, those days, if an opposition Member of Parliament wanted to air his/her views on a community or private radio station, he/she needed protection from the police. If he/she did not get protection from the police, which police was also one-sided, he/she did not enjoy the following day, and examples are too vivid for us to cite. We know the story that is similar to the one in which Jesus Christ healed a man let down through the roof of a house, which happened at Sun FM Radio Station in Ndola. One man, who is the President of this country today, had to be evacuated through the roof, and it was like an action movie. The radio station, which was housed in a three-storey building, was surrounded by Patriotic Front (PF) party members who wanted the life of one man because he was expressing himself.

Mr Chairperson, these ones (pointing at hon. PF Members) shut The Post newspaper, which was owned by a certain opposition leader …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … who, at the time, was not even the president of a party. So, it is very surprising to hear the very ones cry about being victims of the very song that they sang.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Sit down!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I remember seeing Dr Fred M’membe, his wife and young Joseph Mwenda seated on Bwinjimfumu Road after these ones (pointing at hon. PF Members) closed The Post newspaper one bright summer morning.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I recall how PF members in the Eastern Province urinated in the mouth of a journalist when Dr Nevers Mumba was addressing a rally in the bush. I recall how Komboni Radio was closed down by these same people (pointing at hon. PF Members), who are crying about being victims of the same song that they sang, and are, today, saying that the democratic space is shrinking.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, it is astonishing that we forget so quickly how things were before and how things are now. I encourage Hon. Mweetwa to ignore the detractors, to keep his eyes on the ball and to give them space like he is doing.

Mr Chairperson, the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) covers the shenanigans in the Opposition live; unedited and uncensored. These ones (pointing at hon. PF Members) are now crying foul and saying that the democratic space is shrinking.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the spilling of blood was associated with public gatherings where the media were to report. Scampering was the order of the day. When one heard that members of the PF were mobilising, one knew that it was time to take to one’s heels. Today, our colleagues are covered freely and do not look through the corners of their eyes to see who wants to attack them. Attacks and pangas were common. Ask Mr Gerald Shawa, the owner of Prime Television, what happened. It was like a joke. We just woke up and were told that the station had been closed. Previously, a Minister told one journalist that “iwe, fuma muno mu office. You will come into this office when Fred M’membe or the Opposition takes over the Government”. That person is crying foul today, but he would say that he could go and have breakfast in London and come back after 1000 hours.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: These ones (pointing at hon. PF Members).

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, we are on our way to getting things right where the media is concerned, and we are not panicking.

Mr Chairperson, today, I received text messages from a number of them (pointing at hon. PF Members) and those who are on suspension. They are peddling a story with my portrait and saying that I will stand in 2026. I sent the story to my President and told him to look at how stuck they are. We must make our efforts and direct our energies where they matter the most.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

Ms Nakaponda: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Nakaponda: Mr Chairperson, is the Minister, Hon. Gary Nkombo, in order to say “these ones” when we were not here?

Laughter

Ms Nakaponda: Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling, and my point of order is pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

The Deputy Chairperson: I think, the hon. Minister meant the party that sponsored you. He meant the former Ruling Party when he said ‘these people’ and, apparently, you are one of them.

Laughter

The Minister of Information and Media (Mr Mweetwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to wind up debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, let me begin by thanking the hon. Members of Parliament and the hon. Minister, who have rendered their views on this Vote. These are Hon. Mung’andu, Hon. Chitotela, Hon. Kambita, Hon. Mtayachalo, Hon. Mapani, Hon. Dr Chilufya, Hon. Chibuye, Hon. Chonya and Hon. Nkombo.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, the state of the media in any country is a mirror image of the state of that particular democracy. In the two years the New Dawn Administration has been in power, no media house has been closed or threatened, and no journalist has been harassed or told to leave a Government function. There are no preferred media houses invited to cover the Government. All media houses are treated equally.

Mr Chairperson, today, the public broadcaster and media houses cover all citizens, including politicians, equally. The Opposition speak off-the-cuff, and no one is worried of being retired in the national interest if the Opposition says something divergent to the taste of those in the Government. Such is the state of democracy. Riding on what Hon. Nkombo has stated, it is self-evident, therefore, that Zambia’s democratic space is widening. Today, when the Opposition has a press briefing or conference, it is covered by the public media. There is no question about that. Even if no one from the Government responds, the Opposition is covered, unlike how it used to be before, whereby the Opposition then would have to get a response from the Government. That is progress that we, as a country, are registering and what change entails.

Mr Chairperson, a number of issues have been raised by various colleagues, but I will not respond to every issue because of time. However, what Hon. Dr Chilufya said caught my attention. He spoke at length on what he said were the wrong things happening, which he associated with the shrinking democratic space. I have just been informed by Hon. Mposha that he was reading text written for him by Mr Nakachinda.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya rose.

Laughter

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

You cannot rise on a point of order when the hon. Minister is responding. Let the hon. Minister wind up debate.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, that was the information that was passed on to me by Hon. Mposha.

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, the debate of Hon. Dr Chilufya is welcome. These are the kind of debates that we need in a democratic House like this one. There is no need for everyone who debates to support. There must be dissenting views. However, some dissenting views are unfounded. Again, the benefit of democracy is to tolerate views that may not be true or factual, and we must co-exist with them. That is the essence of democracy. So, I thank Hon. Dr Chilufya for epitomising democracy in this House under the good leadership of the New Dawn Administration. That is how it should be.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, other colleagues said that the budget is insufficient. I totally agree with them that this budget is insufficient, given the enormity of the work to be done. However, what we must ask ourselves is: What necessitated this budget being this insufficient? It is because of the economic situation that we found. The New Dawn Administration inherited a crippling and unsustainable local and international debt, leaving the economic resource envelope, which has to be shared among competing needs, stretched. However, I totally agree with my colleagues that this budget is insufficient, given the workload of this ministry.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I agree that a lot of progress has been made insofar as the public media, particularly the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), covering the Opposition is concerned. A lot of work has been done and many successes have been scored, but we must be honest and admit that there is a lot more work that needs to be done. All of us here are part of the Government, but I have not seen an Opposition hon. Member of Parliament on the Government Forum or Sunday Interview programmes. Those are the things we are glad to hear, and we are going to work on them. Going forward, ZNBC ya bonse.

Mr Chairperson, I urge all hon. Members to support this Vote without reservation.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Information and Media has just referred to my younger brother from Munali Constituency as having derailed his presentation by lying to him that I received a text from Mr Nakacinda, neglecting my capacity to debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, my point of order is in line with Standing Order No. 65, where all hon. Members of Parliament are summoned to be factual and refer to verifiable evidence.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Information and Media stated that I am being guided by outside forces. You can inspect my cellular phone to verify that that is not factual. Is the hon. Minister in order to refer to my young brother, the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, and to mislead himself and the House, instead of focusing on ensuring that there is a workshop at the Cabinet Office on statecraft so that Provincial Ministers and Permanent Secretaries (PSs) stop being vulgar as they engage the public?

Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: At the time the hon. Minister was winding up debate, the House looked gloomy. So, that was a light moment. The hon. Minister was trying to crack a joke.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister had concluded his debate before business was suspended.

We proceed.

Vote 26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 39 – (Smart Zambia Institute – K54,943,866)

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mwiimbu): Mr Chairperson, I am most grateful for the opportunity to present the policy statement on the 2024 Estimates of Expenditure for Vote 39, Smart Zambia Institute, Electronic Government Division.

Mandate

Mr Chairperson, the Electronic Government Division draws its mandate from the Electronic Government Act No. 41 of 2021, which aims to enhance the promotion and management of electronic Government (e-Government) services and facilitate access to e-Government services to improve service delivery.

Broad Functions of the Division

Mr Chairperson, among others, the division has the following functions:

1. to develop strategies and standards that enhance the usage and application of information and communication technology (ICT) innovations in the public sector;

1. to develop supportive and enabling shared infrastructure for equitable access to effective and appropriate information and communication technologies; and

1. to design and develop appropriate applications for the support of electronic Governance (e-Governance) and other services.

Review of the 2023 Budget Performance

Mr Chairperson, in 2023, this House approved a budget of K196,568,233 and a Supplementary Budget of K241,925,536, bringing the total authorised budget to K438,493,769. As of 17^th October, 2023, K356,940,501 or 81 per cent of the authorised budget had been released for the division’s programmes.

Mr Chairperson, as of 30^th October, 2023, the division’s key achievements were as follows:

Electronic Government

Mr Chairperson, the division developed and launched the National Electronic Government Plan covering the period 2023 to 2026. The plan provides the policy and strategic focus of the public sector digital transformation agenda through enhanced co-ordination towards improved provision of electronic services to citizens.

ICT Systems

Mr Chairperson, the division connected seventy-two Public Service institutions to the Government-Wide Area Network (GWAN), including fifty-one District Administrative Offices and nine health facilities. The total number of Public Service institutions now accessing shared ICT services as well as unified Internet using the GWAN now stands at 348. This has resulted in ease of communication, and institutions are now able to implement information systems to improve service delivery. For example, the division, in collaboration with the Ministry of Health and its co-operating partners, recently connected eight health centres in Lusaka District to the GWAN and implemented a telemedicine system for patients on antiretroviral therapy (ART).

Mr Chairperson, the telemedicine system has improved the quality of care as well as reduced waiting time for Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) positive patients scheduled for doctors’ appointments. The cost of transportation has also been reduced, as patients are being attended to at health centres closer to their homes, yet they still have access to medical experts from advanced treatment centres through the use of the Internet that has been deployed. In addition to the GWAN, the division piloted ten sites in selected districts with low orbit satellite technology, which was aimed at providing Internet services, especially in rural areas and other key public institutions.

Management and Support Services

Mr Chairperson, as the country transitions towards a digital economy, inclusive digital transformation is one of the main priorities towards the realisation of efficient and effective delivery of services. In this regard, the division developed and launched its first-ever strategic plan covering the period 2023 to 2026. The division also developed and launched its service delivery charter in an effort to provide a framework for transparency, accountability and continuous improvement in service delivery.

2024 Budget Estimates

Mr Chairperson, in 2024, the Electronic Government Division has been allocated K458,930,430. This translates into an increase of K20,436,661 on the 2023 authorised budget of K438,493,769.

Mr Chairperson, in 2024, the division will continue to implement its functions through three programmes, namely:

1. Electronic Government;

1. ICT Systems; and

1. Management and Support Services.

Electronic Government Programme

Mr Chairperson, this programme will enhance the implementation, utilisation and application of e-Government initiatives in the delivery of public services, and will be implemented through three sub-programmes, namely:

1. Government Digital Services;

1. ICT Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) Standards and Regulations; and

1. ICT Help and Service Desk.

ICT System Programme

Mr Chairperson, this programme is aimed at improving connectivity, facilitating the strategic application of electronic means in the delivery of goods and services in key sectors of the Public Service in a secure and safe ICT environment. This programme will be implemented through three sub-programmes, namely:

1. ICT Infrastructure;

1. ICT Applications; and

1. ICT Security.

Management and Support Services

Mr Chairperson, this programme is aimed at providing administrative and logistical support as well as human resource management services to the division.

Focus for 2024

Mr Chairperson, in 2024, the division will prioritise the connection of the remaining district administrative centres and all the local authorities to GWAN. This is aimed at enhancing operational efficiency at the district level and supporting the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy. The rollout of GWAN will be complemented by low-orbit satellite technology in the provision of high-speed, low-latency Internet access, particularly in regions with limited telecommunication infrastructure. In this regard, 525 Starlink kits will be deployed to provide Internet in underserved and difficult-to-reach remote and rural parts of the country. This will guarantee the availability of Government electronic services closer to more people.

Mr Chairperson, in improving quality health care, service delivery is at the heart of the Government and, in this regard, the division, in collaboration with the Ministry of Health, will deploy the Smart Care Plus System in 600 health facilities.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I implore the hon. Members of this august House to support the submissions presented under Vote 39, the Smart Zambia Institute.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Kambita: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on Vote 39, Smart Zambia Institute.

Mr Chairperson, this Vote is concerned with implementation of an electronic Government (e-Government). The Smart Zambia Institute was hatched to enhance Government and electronic systems, and to digitalise Government systems and transaction processes. This was enhanced by an Act of Parliament, the Electronic Government Act No.41 of 2021, which we passed on the Floor of this House in 2021, and the Act now guides how this programme is rolled out.

Mr Chairperson, I am particularly elated by the pronouncements that have been made by the hon. Minister, giving us the direction that there is now a proper technology policy in place, which gives us a clear implementation path for information and communication technologies (ICTs) in this country, in particular, that which is related to Government operations.

Mr Chairperson. I am also elated by the fact that the Act gives birth to the Electronic Government Division, which falls under the Office of the President. The division has a clear mandate, which the hon. Minister referred to on the Floor of this House. In view of the provisions of the Act, systems have been put in place and are now operationalised through a policy. It is very important for us, as officials of the Government, to take keen interest in reading the ICT Policy that the hon. Minister alluded to. If one does not understand the ICT Policy, one will not understand certain bottlenecks in case the Government has challenges in implementing certain things that need to be followed according to the policy. So, it is very important for all of us, hon. Members of Parliament, to understand the policy, which was formulated so we can have a platform where shared data, including Government systems, would be integrated. We had challenges at the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources not too long ago because systems are standalone. If they were integrated, it would have been very easy to identify certain things. Property under the Ministry of Education could quickly be put on title when systems are linked. In that fashion, we will be speaking to the same group of data and we will be tapping the same. So, as transactions are generated from one point, they are also received by another point of the Government. This way creates a very efficient Government, and this is how it should be.

Mr Chairperson, communication is also enhanced when systems are elaborate in this fashion. I have seen efforts being made to ensure that connectivity is enhanced. We need to speed up the connectivity in rural areas and far-flung areas so that this is achieved. A school in Katontu should be able to speak to the headquarters here, in Lusaka, through connectivity. Electronic transaction processing approvals are also improved in that fashion when that happens. However, in view of the good arrangements that have been put in place, we need information technology literacy, which is a problem in this country. You have heard of the so-called born before computers (BBC). There are some people seated in this House who are not even technology literate. We have had challenges here when voting, and the ICT team has had to teach people several times because of technology literacy challenges.

Interruptions

Mr Mubika: We do not debate ourselves.

Mr Kambita: Mr Chairperson, I am just giving an example to encourage all of us to take keen interest in learning technology. To achieve that, we need to start from the basics. Our schools need ICT equipment. At the moment, we have a few computers here and there. Schools are scrounging around very few personal computers (PCs). So, we need computers in schools. The hon. Minister needs to update us on the programme of putting up a computer hardware plant in the country. I am sure, the visit by the Head of State to China enhanced that programme so that, in the future, we can be producing computers.

Mr Chairperson, ICT equipment depreciates quickly and, because of that, it requires regular maintenance. There has to be a programme and plan to make sure that the equipment we use is in tandem with current technology because it depreciates quickly. Without a proper policy on replacing equipment and enhancing technology to catch up with what is going on in the world, we would lag behind, as we have seen in some places. I have seen this in the water sector. Some water plants still use very old pumps because they have not caught up with the current systems. So, we need to avoid that and enhance our technology in that fashion, but to do that, we need to have a policy of developing, and continuous improvement and learning. I heard the hon. Minister make a pronouncement on continuous improvement and learning. This field requires continuous learning and improvement, and that needs to be provided for in the budget.

Mr Chairperson, we also need to segregate users in ICT. There are high-power users and low- power users. If we do not have a proper policy on acquisition of hardware, we will be procuring high-end technology equipment for lower-power users. Schools, for instance, do not need core i7 machines or twelfth generation laptops; they just need basic Personal Computers (PCs), which pupils can learn from. However, auditors at the Office of the Auditor-General and those engaged in land surveying are high-power users, and they need high-end machines. So, as we acquire equipment for the Government, we need to categorise users so that we do that appropriately, and that should be embedded in the ICT Policy.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate on behalf of the people of Zambezi on the Vote for the Smart Zambia Institute.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity.

Mr Chairperson, in the first place, I do not support this budget in the sense that the amount given to the Smart Zambia Institute does not support its activities. The institute should be given enough funds because, as a country, we are behind in terms of information and communication technology (ICT).

Mr Chairperson, let me tackle the issue of smart healthcare kits. There is network at clinics or health centres across urban areas, but a good number of people who need this facility are in remote areas. In this country, from time immemorial, we do not think beyond Lusaka, neither do we think beyond the railway line or tarred roads. That is the biggest problem that we, as a country, have. The Smart Zambia Institute should work together with the Ministry of Technology and Science to see to it that rural areas are connected so that it is easy for the schools and clinics there to implement Government programmes.

Mr Chairperson, if the Smart Zambia Institute had officers in the valley, the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources would not have given 120,000 ha of land to an individual because the ministry would have questioned why an individual was given all that land and offered a title. If we had ICT infrastructure in rural areas, people would not fail to receive medicine. We would be using drones to detect the co-ordinates of those areas and to deliver the medicine. It is very cheap to use a drone to deliver 2 kg of the new malaria drug, whose name I have forgotten, than using an ambulance.

Mr Chanda: Coartem.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Yes, coartem.

Mr Chairperson, these are the things that we, as a country, should look at.

Mr Chairperson, at one time, science and technology in Zambia had moved forward but, at a certain point, things stalled. Those who were born recently, the young ones, may wish to note that at one point, some Zambians were planning to go to the moon. However, all that technology has gone. No one has taken that up.

Mr Chairperson, what am I saying? We need to ensure that the children in Shangombo and Chikwasha in my constituency use computers. We think that only mayadi children should learn ICT. The children in villages do not even know how a smartphone looks. Going forward, they need to catch up with the children in towns.

Mr Chairperson, the point I am making is that Government offices need to be established in rural areas so that we can all move at the same pace. Children in rural areas only start operating a computer when they go to a boarding school or tertiary institution because for one to work at a Government institution, one has to be computer literate. That should come to an end.

Mr Chairperson, I thank the Government for connecting councils countrywide to the Smart Zambia Institute. This is how it should be, and that will reduce bureaucracy and illegal activities in councils. I wish we could complete connecting councils by 2025, which would be good for the country. It would even be easy for councils to collect money on behalf of the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA). However, I do not think that we are moving at the rate I wish we could.

Mr Chairperson, the Smart Zambia Institute is supposed to create an application for artificial intelligence (AI). If it is there, we thank God. However, these are the things that we, as a country, should be creating. Some countries in Africa were behind Zambia, but they use AI and even design applications. There are people in this country who can design anything. There are so many intelligent people in this country who have gone to other countries to do beautiful things for others. Some Zambians head departments in other countries, and this pains me. Why is it that we, as a country, cannot look for resources to empower people who are good at certain things?

Mr Chairperson, my plea to the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is that next year, the Executive increases the money allocated to this institution. For me, the institute should not just provide a service, but also be a money-spinner that can raise revenue for the Government. We look at everything as an expense, and that is the reason this institution has been given K196 million, which is very embarrassing for us as a country. If we are to move forward, we must allocate more money to such institutions. I know, it is very difficult for us, politicians, to appreciate this, but I believe that whatever is done in Europe can be done in Zambia. So, we need more money for this institution.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nkulukusa (Katuba): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me a few minutes to comment on this important institute, whose budget I support because of the strategic nature of information and communication technology (ICT) in industries.

Mr Chairperson, the Smart Zambia Institute plays a very important role in the deployment of ICTs to all sectors of the economy, and this makes sectors competitive. I do not know what sector we can talk about that, if left out of the deployment of ICTs, can achieve 21^st Century results. Today, we talk about India and other destinations when it comes to medical tourism because they deployed ICTs in the medical field to gain a competitive advantage. So, I want to underscore the important role that the deployment of ICTs plays in any sector. We hear that there are challenges in the implementation of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), but we need to use ICT in every aspect of our economy.

Mr Chairperson, the Smart Zambia Institute is responsible for making Zambia a smart destination. When we talk about a smart destination, we are talking about investors, tourists and other parties accessing information on what the country has to offer in their locations and at their fingertips. This is very important if we are to sell Zambia, for example, for foreign direct investment (FDI). Investors would like to know about a country by first seeing what is deployed in the ICT sector and accessing information on investment opportunities before they decide to travel to that destination. So, the Smart Zambia Institute must put in place strategies to attract investment and tourism, and make Zambia a smart destination.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the role of the Smart Zambia Institute in the Satellite Accounting System in the tourism sector. I think, we do not have a lot of data and statistics on how the tourism sector contributes to the economy. We needed to develop the system a long time ago. We started struggling with this around 2018, and we are still struggling. At the moment, we do not know how much earnings are coming in and how we, as a country, are performing because statistical data can only be got through the deployment of ICTs. So, I would like to encourage the institute to continue working hard and ensure that the Satellite Accounting System in the tourism sector is developed as soon as possible for us to gain the competitive advantage we require in terms of data collection and quality decision making so that we can move forward.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about how ICTs can be deployed whenever a country moves in a given strategic direction. I am sure, we all know that currently, the New Dawn Government has moved in strategic direction of decentralising both human resource and fiscal responsibility through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Whenever a country takes a strategic direction, there are four, if not three, important components. The first one is decentralising human resources and, I feel, the Government has moved full gear in seconding some people to councils so that we have manpower there. Of course, we have already decentralised fiscal functions in that resources have gone down to the councils, but we need to deploy ICTs in monitoring and managing CDF projects so that we have a complete set. We need to have dashboards so that someone does not need to ask how much of the CDF allocation has been used. The returns can be on the dashboard, and people can just use ICTs to check on the progress in the whole country. It is very important that wherever resources are involved, we deploy ICTs, as that will reduce the cost of doing business, increase efficiency and effectiveness, and protect resources.

Mr Chairperson, we had an opportunity to visit Rwanda and see how Irembo Services, an organisation equivalent to Smart Zambia Institute, is performing. That is a government bus for all government ICT programmes and services, and we saw how efficient it was in delivering services, including distributing medicines to hospitals. Services are efficiently being delivered by that organisation, and it takes note of when medicines will expire and the stocks of medicine at a hospital. Pilferages and other losses have reduced from 25 per cent to only 5 per cent as a result. So, we can see that ICT plays an important role in increasing competitiveness as well as ensuring that a country moves forward.

Mr Chairperson, this is a very important Vote that we must support to ensure that the country becomes smart and more competitive. We are competing for resources in Sub-Saharan Africa, the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region to be precise. We do not have the resources that South Africa has, but if we deployed ICTs, which are a game-changer, we can make the platform level.

Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the people of Katuba, I support this Vote because I know that the institute will give us good results.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the people of Chama South, I support this Vote, but some conditions.

Mr Chairperson, we are talking about the Smart Zambia Institute, whose job is to provide electronic governance (e-Governance). Various departments should be synchronised for easy data management as well as efficient Government operations, but do we, as a nation, own applications and hardware, including software? That should be the beginning of everything. African countries are mostly affected by their consumptive behaviour. Are we allocating enough money to ensure that the Smart Zambia Institute, for example, starts manufacturing the hardware component that it uses? That is what will create permanent jobs and build the economy of this country. There is not about manpower and skill. When I was in China, a high-level delegate from the Chinese Government told me that the best brains are in Africa and that we are no different from the Chinese and the people from the West. He further said that God made us the same, but that the decisions our leaders make have made us be where we are. In short, I am simply saying that we need to give the Smart Zambia Institute enough money so that it can set up a manufacturing plant for tablets.

Mr Chairperson, in this budget, there is an allocation for the procurement of information and communication technology (ICT) materials, which the institute will procure from developed countries. However, in Zambia, there are smart people who are well-trained in ICT, yet they just concentrate on coding. It is a good idea for applications to be developed locally, but we should go further. The security of the applications will only be guaranteed if the hardware is also developed locally. Importing a chip from Huawei Hewlett Packard (HP) Inc. or any hardware developer can, at times, be a security risk. We have heard superpowers ban certain devices in their countries because they believe that the devices contain spyware. Much as I am excited to see this budget, which is quite reasonable, we should create an ICT production centre. That is possible. Why not ask a company like Huawei to produce some things locally using our engineers? Why not send our technocrats to certain countries so that they can learn how to make some gadgets?

Mr Chairperson, there is a software called Zambia Integrated Land Management Information System (ZILMIS) at the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources, but we had a challenge. The developer, who is outside Zambia, could lock the system any time if he did not want the officers at the ministry to use it, and that was inconveniencing. Not long ago, the University of Zambia (UNZA) website was down because the owner of the server is in the United Kingdom (UK). Why not own the server ourselves? If we owned the server, we would allocate more resources to the institute for connectivity. We are celebrating Elon Musk’s Internet provision. Why not ask him to launch a satellite for us, which we can control, instead of paying subscriptions through the Smart Zambia Institute? Launching a satellite is not very expensive, as I was told by my friends in the United States of America (USA) whom I contacted. Next time we will be approving the Smart Zambia Institute’s budget, we need such proposals so that the institute will not only be using foreign hardware, but also be a centre of excellence for the creation and modernisation of ICT materials.

Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the people of Chama South, I will be very grateful if, through the Smart Zambia Institute, the applications that the Government uses in urban areas are extended to rural areas. Some of the services are only provided in towns, yet communication towers were erected in rural areas, which should make rural dwellers also enjoy some applications. I support this Vote with that condition.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

The Deputy Chairperson: We have a lot of business to transact.

The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House will wind up debate.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up debate on Vote 39, Smart Zambia Institute.

Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the submissions that have been made by my colleagues pertaining to this Vote. Most of the hon. Members who debated support the institute, and the institute will consider the proposals that have been made. However, the views pertaining to innovation and the establishment of institutions and factories to manufacture ICT gadgets should not have been raised under this Vote; they should have been raised when debating on the Vote for the Ministry of Technology and Science. The Smart Zambia Institute is particularly concerned with the provision of services to Government institutions. So, the views pertaining to the provision of ICT services to the general public should be raised when we debate the Vote for the Ministry of Technology and Science.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank my colleagues for supporting Vote 39, Smart Zambia Institute.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

VOTE 39 – (Smart Zambia Institute – K458,930,430).

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 422, Programme 3415, Electronic Government – Sub-Programme 01 – Non-financial Asserts – K79,515,061. In the 2023 Budget, K455,000 was allocated to this programme while in 2024, K79,515,061 has been allocated. What type of assets will the institute acquire to necessitate this sharp increase, which I do not see in the table of outputs or deliverables?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, can my colleague repeat the provision.

Dr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 422, Programme 3415, Electronic Government – Sub-Programme 01 – Non-financial Asserts – K79,515,061. This amount will be used to acquire assets for the Smart Care Plus Project, which is basically digitalising the health sector. What necessitated the increase in the budgetary allocation, yet on the table of deliverables or outputs, the assets that the institute wants to acquire are not listed?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the increase relates to the services the institute will provide and will cater for the acquisition of ICT equipment for the planned Smart Care System to be deployed in 600 health facilities throughout the country. The system is currently being used in teaching hospitals, first-level hospitals and other health facilities. The provision will also cater for the acquisition of ICT equipment for the planned establishment of fourteen digital transformation centres.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 421, Programme 9005 – Procurement Management – K1,305,046. This year, the allocation for this programme was K631,966. Since it involves buying computers, zoom facilities and big televisions for offices, it has been increased by 100 per cent, but I have not seen training. Most information and communication technology (ICT) equipment in offices is accumulating dust because it is hardly used. When I was Mayor, there was a television in my office, but I hardly used it, and it is the same situation in ministries. The Government keeps buying computers and zoom facilities that are hardly used because, maybe, civil servants do not know how to use them. How does the hon. Minister reconcile that? The Government is just buying computers, but it does not budget for training.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, you may note that there is a provision for capacity building training and other support services for all the members of staff under Smart Zambia Institute who have been deployed throughout the country.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 87 – (Anti-Corruption Commission – K180,804,688).

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the estimates of expenditure for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) for 2024.

Mr Chairperson, Article 235(a) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016 as well as the Anti-Corruption Act No. 3 of 2012 establishes the ACC with the following functions:

1. prevent and take necessary and effective measures for the prevention of corruption in both public and private bodies;

1. initiate, receive and investigate complaints of alleged or suspected corrupt practices, and subject to the direction of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP), prosecute cases of corruption and related offences;

1. co-ordinate or co-operate with other institutions so as to implement an integrated approach to the eradication of corruption;

1. consult corporate bodies and exchange information with appropriate bodies of other countries that are authorised to conduct enquiries or investigations in relation to corrupt practices;

1. adopt and strengthen mechanisms for educating the public to respect the public good and public interest.

Mission Statement

Mr Chairperson, arising from the functions outlined above, the mission statement for the commission is:

“To prevent, investigate, prosecute corruption and educate the public in order to safeguard public resources and promote fairness and service delivery”.

Vision

Mr Chairperson, the vision of the commission is:

“A credible anti-corruption institution for a corruption-free society”.

Mr Chairperson, the commission’s strategic plan has three focus areas, namely:

1. operational excellence, resulting in efficient and effective service delivery;

1. anti-corruption excellence, resulting in transparency and accountability in service delivery in the public and private sectors; and

1. communication collaboration, resulting in stakeholder support.

Overview of 2023 Budget Performance

Mr Chairperson, I am glad to report to this august House that the fight against corruption has continued to gain momentum and started to bear fruits. This Government is determined to win this fight and ensure that any person or entity bent on engaging in corrupt practices is seriously dealt with by the law regardless of social status or political affiliation and whether serving in the Government now or before. I wish to reiterate that all past, present and future corruption will be aggressively confronted and no one will be spared. We all know that corruption takes away the much-needed resources for development. With the increased allocation to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), there is a need to constantly check that corruption is not allowed to creep in. Wherever corruption shows its ugly head, the corrupt should be treated with the highest level of contempt, and society should despise any individual or firm that gets involved in it.

Mr Chairperson, in 2023, this august House appropriated K172,468,944. The allocation covered the following programmes:

1. Corruption Investigations and Prosecution;

1. Corruption Prevention and Education; and

1. Management and Support Services.

Mr Chairperson, the following are the highlights of the commission’s successes achieved by the third quarter of 2023:

1. 254 investigation cases have so far been concluded;

1. fifty-seven individuals have been arrested and charged with various corruption offences;

1. the estimated value of property under investigations, which has either been restricted or seized, is over K477 million;

1. twenty-seven cases have been concluded before the courts of law and fourteen convictions have been secured;

1. seventeen Integrity Committees have been established while thirty-one have undergone induction training on the role of Integrity Committees;

1. a mining symposium was held recently with a view to engaging stakeholders in the mining industry to take the responsibility for coming up with anti-corruption interventions in the sector;

1. the commission had over forty-seven meetings to evaluate applicants for the award of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The measure is meant to enhance transparency and accountability in the process;

1. an estimated 5 million people were sensitised with anti-corruption messages through lectures, exhibitions, road shows, workshops, press and social media platforms, and radio and television programmes; and

1. the commission opened a provincial office in Chinsali in Muchinga Province and district offices in Serenje, Nakonde and Ndola.

Mr Chairperson, the budget estimates for the commission for 2024 is K180,804,688. This allocation represents an increase of 5 per cent in the 2023 allocation of K172,468,944. The allocation will cover expenditure in the three core programmes of the commission, which are aimed at:

1. enhancing the detection and combating of corruption through investigation and prosecution of cases;

1. strengthening corruption prevention interventions; and

1. intensifying public awareness programmes.

Mr Chairperson, I now wish to appeal to hon. Members of this august House to support the estimates of expenditure for the ACC.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: We do not have much time. So, I urge hon. Members to not finish their allocated eight minutes. If hon. Members can debate in four minutes, that will be better.

Mr Nyambose (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity, on behalf of the special people of Chasefu, to contribute to the debate on this very important organisation called the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).

Mr Chairperson, I will focus on the mandate of the commission, and I seek the attention of the officers more than the hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, the mandate of the ACC is to prevent and investigate corruption, prosecute offenders and educate the public on corruption to safeguard public resources and promote fairness in service delivery, as provided for in Section 6, Sub-Section 1, of the Anti-Corruption Commission Act No. 3 of 2012. Everyone knows that corruption takes away resources meant for development. The mandate provided by the Act allows ACC officers to do what they are employed to do.

Mr Chairperson, the budgetary allocation for the commission was K101 million in 2022, K172 million in 2023 and K180 million in 2024. This budget is less by K10 million than that of the Ministry of Information and Media. What does that point to? It points to the highest political will of the New Dawn Administration.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, in 2022, when the New Dawn Government took over power, it increased the budget for the commission and, again, increased it in 2023. Why? The President has been speaking to this nation about zero corruption. The day the President was sworn in, he emphasised that, and every time, he talks about corruption, but the commission is not living up to the expectations of the Zambian people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, the ACC has a mandate, and appointing the Director-General (DG) is not enough. This calls for a mindset change. Appropriating monies to this commission should not be business-as-usual because there are no major outcomes, especially concerning people with high social status and those who are politically connected. Most of the people who were convicted are minor offenders. Zambians, especially politicians, who took money from the Zambian people should be convicted, but there have been no convictions for two years. No one has been mentioned.

Mr Chairperson, there are Integrity Committees, but what major benefits are we getting from them? They are just like the Chongololo Clubs that we had in schools. What are the benefits of having Integrity Committees? We must change our attitude and safeguard our resources. Alas, the opposite is happening. So, this commission is not ordinary. Next time, I will not support this increment, which is more than for a ministry, if no politically connected people are convicted. The danger to this nation are politicians. Instead of providing a service to the people like the politicians in the First Republic during Dr Kaunda’s time, we came here to make money for ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) has not been spared. When this Government increased the CDF amount, people celebrated. I thought what is happening in our constituencies is a joke. The value of the CDF is shrinking. The amount is being increased because of corruption.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, we are getting few benefits because a contractor will tell you that constructing a classroom block costs K1.2 million to K1.7 million, yet a 1 x 3 classroom block can be built at K650,000.

Mr Chairperson, the Zambian people expected the ACC –

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member for Chasefu!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I was restraining myself from raising this point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: You can state what rule has been breached.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, Standing Order No. 65, on providing verifiable information.

Mr Chairperson, instead of the hon. Member referring to himself as a corrupt politician, he stated that we are all corrupt. Is he in order to refer to us …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: … as corrupt politicians without bearing in mind that we are here to speak for the people in Kalabo, who are not able to be here?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

The hon. Member for Chasefu is completely out of order to generalise in saying that the hon. Members of this House are corrupt. That statement did not sit very well with me.

Hon. Member for Chasefu, retract that statement and apologise to the House.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, I retract that statement, but I am on firm ground.

The Deputy Chairperson: Apologise.

Mr Nyambose: I apologise unreservedly.

Mr Chairperson, most of the people in the previous regime are in the corridors of the courts because they amassed wealth that they cannot explain where it came from. That is a fact, and if we do not hammer those, we will not deter those who may want to do that. Let us serve this country because it is our nation. We should be of service and not make money for ourselves.

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, this commission is very critical in safeguarding resources. We need money for development.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

A point of order is raised.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Chairperson, you guided the hon. Member of Parliament. If he was corrupt when he was a unionist or when he was working, he should not generalise. If he has evidence of any corruption, he can place it on the Table. He referred to the previous regime and painted everybody black. Our democracy thrives on rights, and everybody has the right to be looked at as innocent even when accused. However, the hon. Member is generalising even after you ably guided him. I know that he had applied to be on the Patriotic Front (PF) ticket and might still be bitter. Is he in order to defy your ruling after you guided him adequately to not refer to his colleagues as corrupt? He is even segregating hon. Members of this House for political expedience.

Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member for Chasefu, I guided you. You may have evidence that some hon. Members of the former Ruling Party have courts cases because that is in the public domain, and I know that every Zambian knows that, but do not include those who are here and may be innocent. So, you should draw a distinction. Everyone knows that most people from the former regime were found with cases to answer because that is in public domain. Just stick to that point of view.

You may continue.

Mr Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, the topic of corruption is emotive to me.

Mr Chairperson, the guilty are always afraid. We must clean society. The President has made it very clear that corruption is a cancer that erodes society and that we need to get rid of it. My apologies for generalising, but some people have just been cleared, …

Laughter

Mr Nyambose: … and this is a fact. So, we must cleanse this society and help our President, who means well for this nation.

Mr Chairperson, we must deter would-be offenders, and I appeal to the ACC to serve this country. ACC officers should come to our constituencies because bad things are happening there. They should not fear us. I have taken this path because I do not fear anything. Fear is not part of my Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). I can say anything. One can check my record. I have not done anything wrong, but I know that I am not immune. I can do something wrong. However, those who may want to commit the same offence should not do so because they will not enjoy ill-gotten wealth.

Mr Chairperson, there are no burglar bars or a warfence at my house. However, some of the wall fences that were built by the people from the former regime are like we are in Benghazi, where there is war. What do the owners fear?

Laughter

Mr Nyambose: This is our country. They should live in peace.

Mr Chairperson, when the President talks, it is like he is weaponising the commission. The commission has the mandate to do the best for this country. It should not wait for the President to remind it to do something because people will think that the President is persecuting individuals. The commission has the mandate to ensure that those who do wrong go in. If one has not done anything wrong, there is no need to fear; one just has to go and answer the questions one is asked. However, some people have just been cleared, and may God bless them.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Nyambose: Mr Chairperson, those who have not been cleared should go in.

Mr Chairperson, I support this budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: … I need your protection.

Mr Chairperson, I support the budget for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), which is the backbone of our economy. Clearly, –

The timer indicated three minutes.

Mr Mung’andu: Why have I been given three minutes, Mr Chairperson? We have not changed the Standing Orders. This is a House of rules.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, may you continue.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, I need seven minutes, or is it eight minutes? That is what the Standing Orders provide for. The time cannot be reduced because the Standing Orders provide that an hon. Member should debate for eight minutes. So, I should be given eight minutes, but I will probably debate in four minutes. The other hon. Member debated for eight minutes. Why should I be given four minutes?

Information and Communications Technology (ICT) staff, may you put eight minutes. I want to continue.

Hon. UPND Member: Continue!

Mr Mung’andu: No, I will not until the timer indicates eight minutes. We cannot progress like this.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

I think, the Information and Communications Technology (ICT) staff adjusted the time when I said that hon. Members should debate in less than eight minutes so that as many hon. Members as possible debate.

Mr Mung’andu: Let the timer indicate eight minutes. I can assure you that I will debate in three or four minutes. That is how it should be. We are following the Standing Orders. We are talking about the law.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will give you extra three minutes.

Mr Mung’andu: We should not progress like this, Mr Chairperson. Standing Orders are Standing Orders, and people are suspended for breaching them. Why should ICT staff breach our Standing Orders, which provide that an hon. Member should debate in eight minutes?

The timer indicated eight minutes.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Chairperson, since the ACC is the backbone of the economy of this country, the corrupt cannot go scot-free. I am not an advocate for arresting leaders even without proof. The law does not operate like that. A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. It is the evidence that the ACC presents before the court that will make the corrupt get convicted. It is as simple as that. White-collar crime is committed by very advanced individuals like us and technocrats who, in most cases, hide their loot. No wonder, the ACC and the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) now use the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act; it is difficult to establish evidence. The courts work with evidence. Are we making laws that are adapting to the evolving levels of criminality? That is what we should be interrogating. Do the ACC and other law enforcement agencies need us to revise our laws in order to net even those involved in complicated white-collar crime?

Mr Chairperson, we are hearing of consent judgements that the Attorney-General is entering. How can the State compensate people who sued an individual in his own capacity? A typical example is Mr Kaizer Zulu. A few individuals sued him, but the State compensated them on his behalf. The ACC needs to carry out investigations, and it should not fear. As Zambians, we should reach a point where our integrity and the interest of the nation become supreme.

Mr Chairperson, if I was intimidated and asked why I was touching a certain person, I would resign. God would look after me and my children.

Mr Chitotela: Why do you not resign?

Mr Mung’andu: I have not done anything wrong. Why should I resign?

Mr Chairperson, having a morally upright society is the only way we will build this country. Some of us sympathise with the ACC because white-collar criminality is very complex. The ACC should fight past corruption. If it means amending the laws because some crimes are complicated, we are here. The ACC should also look at the current corruption because we are seeing whatever is happening. I just gave the example of a few individuals who sued an individual, but the State entered into a consent judgement to compensate on behalf of an individual. That is corruption, and the ACC needs to investigate these consent judgements. Are there salient features? Was that malicious prosecution? I know that there are lawyers here. Let trial, if possible, be exhausted. This is damaging this Government, those of you who are excited. We, in the Opposition, are going to talk without fear or favour.

Mr Chairperson, we trust the ACC. If it means some of the officers being arrested because they are doing something right, let it be so, and their children and grandchildren will hold them in high esteem. That is the Zambia we want.

Mr Chairperson, I will leave three minutes.

I support the Vote, Sir.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mutale: Quality!

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, we lose 65 per cent of the minerals extracted in this country through the back door, but that money can be saved for the commission we are talking about.

Madam Speaker, before I come to that, let me talk about what the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) needs. The capacity of the workers is small. The commission is only in eleven districts out of 116 districts, and that is not enough. The Government needs to employ more officers. Mazabuka is huge and some small countries are the size of it. However, there are no ACC officers there. People are being employed in the Zambia Police Service and the Department of Immigration, and teachers were employed. So, there is a need to employ ACC officers so that they can save the revenue of the country. I request the Government to employ, if possible, this year, ACC officers in half of the 116 districts. Why should a person in Mazabuka, at his/her expense, go to Choma or Lusaka to report a case? I think, that is not how it should be.

Mr Chairperson, ACC officers need to work in the border areas, such as Livingstone and Nakonde, to prevent corruption. The Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is being disbursed to all the 156 constituencies. So, ACC officers should be in many areas to prevent corruption and guide, and there is a need to employ more. May I also take this opportunity to thank the New Dawn Government or the United Party for National Development (UPND) for buying new vehicles for the ACC. That is a fantastic job, but we still need more vehicles so that ACC officers can go to all the areas where they are needed.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister said that the ACC’s mandate is to prevent corruption. Preventing corruption is getting major plunderers arrested, but the commission has not done very well in this area. The ACC only concluded twenty-seven cases. How many corrupt people are there in this country? There are so many, yet only twenty-seven cases were concluded. I think, numbers do not lie.

Mr Chairperson, the ACC started very well, but something went wrong. The commission needs to help this country. We are in a crisis. The people who plundered the economy have now regrouped. It is now fashionable to be a plunderer because you know you will not be arrested. How does the commission prevent corruption when other people are not being arrested? I think, we need to love this country and protect its resources. The ACC is being given money. So, it must do its job. Yes, there are few officers, but they should improve the pace they are investigating cases because something is not right. They started very well but, along the way, something happened. Further, as they do their work, they should stick to professionalism. They should not allow politicians to interfere in their work. They were trained to do the job, and they should it right. No one should tell them what to do.

If you (Faced the officials from the ACC) follow the professionalism you were taught –

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, do not speak directly to the witnesses.

Mr Kamboni: Mr Chairperson, you are seated near where they are.

Laughter

Mr Kamboni: Mr Chairperson, the officers from the ACC need to save this country from corrupt people. The plunderers have regrouped and have more vigour because they have seen that no one has been arrested. The issue of the fire tenders was big and the whole country was up in arms about it, but it is now silent. People involved in small cases, not big ones, are the ones being arrested. The officers from the ACC should up their game and investigate the case involving ambulances and others. That would be the best prevention.

Mr Chairperson, the ACC investigated twenty-seven cases, but the cases are not adequate. I do not know what challenges the commission is facing, but it needs to strategise on how to circumvent those challenges so that many cases are concluded in a year. Out of twenty-seven cases, there were only fourteen convictions. That does not tell how much money goes through the back door. There was a report to the effect that 65 per cent of the minerals extracted go through the back door. That is not good, and we can prevent all these resources from being lost, which we would use to buy computers for the commission whose budget we are discussing.

Mr Chairperson, I do not want to spend much time on this, but the commission needs to up its game. So, I urge the Government to employ officers in each district. That might take three years, but we also need to equip the officers with vehicles, computers and other accessories.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I end here.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mtayachalo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few words in debating Vote 87. I think, I will just go straight to the salient points.

Mr Chairperson, I have seen that in 2024, this institution has been allocated K180 million. K23 million will go towards corruption prevention and education, and K94 million towards corruption investigation and prosecution. I thought that more resources are supposed to be channelled towards corruption prevention. It is like we are trying to promote corruption so that we can prosecute the cases.

Mr Chairperson, we have been talking about corruption for so long. We are not going to win the war against corruption as long as we do not build strong and autonomous institutions of governance. When Mr Obama was in Accra, he told the Ghanaian Parliament that Africa did not need strong men and that it needed strong institutions of governance. When Dr Kaunda left office, we were told that he and United National Independence Party (UNIP) leaders had stolen money, but after investigations, there was nothing at all.

Mr Chairperson, we, in this House, make laws. Let us put in place strong institutions of governance that can stand the test of time. The Director-General (DG) of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and other officers should enjoy security of tenure. At the moment, they are at the mercy of those in authority.

Mr Chairperson, we are ready to support this Vote, provided the ACC is going to be impartial, proactive and not be used to settle political scores. The ACC has been perceived to be settling political scores. Why is it that we investigate people when they leave office? Why do we not investigate people when they are still in office? There are many allegations of corruption happening even in this Government. We have heard of single-sourcing of fuel, drugs and fertiliser contracts, but these cases are not being investigated. We will change Governments a hundred times, but as long as we do not build strong institutions of governance, we will be wasting our time. Even when the United Party for National Development (UPND) leaves office, it will be the same. When we build strong institutions of governance, we are going to win the fight against corruption.

Mr Chairperson, let us not engage in malicious prosecution. If we look at the figures of people being arrested and number of convictions, it is not a success story. They clearly show that the ACC is not fully investigating cases before taking matters to court. People are saying that one has to clear oneself in the courts of law. That is not being fair. The ACC should investigate and have enough evidence before taking matters to the courts of law. Taking people to court is expensive and time-wasting. At the end of the day, someone is inconvenienced and then we are saying that the ACC, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and the police must take matters to court. However, the current figures do not really give a good impression.

Mr Chairperson, the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act is also being abused. It is like we are promoting poverty in this country. If we are not careful, we will get back to the One-Party State time when if someone bought an item such as a television or vehicle, that person had to produce receipts. I am not promoting corruption but, I feel, this law is being abused. Why is it that we are only targeting Zambians? Many foreigners here, in Zambia, have amassed wealth that they cannot explain, but we do not see the ACC and DEC visiting them. They have laundered money, but someone who has K1 million in an account has his/her account frozen. Surely, in this day and age, what is K1 million or K2 million?

Mr Chairperson, as long as we do not build strong institutions of governance, we will be wasting our time. My appeal is that we do not try people in the court of public opinion. There is an impression that politicians are thieves, but I do not think they are. Look at what senior civil servants own. It takes two to tangle. We have concentrated on politicians, who do not even sign the cheques. Equally, hon. Ministers do not sign cheques. It is quite unfortunate that we have zeroed in on politicians. I want the ACC to be proactive. I am sure that the Director-General, who is a colleague and former lawyer, will take the fight against corruption to a higher level.

Mr Chairperson, I support this budget. However, the institution should be proactive and impartial, and it should not be pushed by politicians to settle political scores.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that the ACC has been doing a commendable job in this country. We must realise that the criminal justice system in this country is court-driven. It is not the commission that determines when a case can be concluded. The commission’s role is to investigate and then seek the authority of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) to prosecute. When a matter is taken to court, the court takes over the process. The commission or prosecution wing cannot determine when the case can be concluded. It is not the responsibility of the commission to convict anyone. If there are no convictions, do not blame the commission. There are other wings of the Government involved.

Mr Chairperson, I am also alive to the issues being raised by members of the public and hon. Members of this august House pertaining to the fight against corruption. I cannot talk about some of the issues out there. Obviously, we, as members of the public, are all concerned. You are aware that universities were supposed to be built in Luapula Province, Samfya and Kasama, and millions of Dollars were paid but to date, there is only grass at the proposed sites. When the commission moves in to investigate, people allege tribal issues and attack it. It is the responsibility of all of us to support the commission in fighting corruption, which it cannot fight on its own. The commission is there to fight corruption on behalf of the people of Zambia. So, we should give it all the support.

Mr Chairperson, we are aware that currently, the commission and other investigative wings are using other processes to recover what has been lost through corruption and other means. The commission is using other processes to recover properties. In the past week, it recovered more than K35 million and other properties from individuals. The fight against corruption in this country is slow. The wheels of justice are usually slow but, eventually, those who are culpable are found wanting. So, I would like to appeal to all of us to not trivialise the fight against corruption and say that people are being investigated based on their tribes. Were those people committing corruption on behalf of a tribe? The answer is no.

Mr Chairperson, criminal activities are personal. You do not commit crimes on behalf of a tribe or nation. When people are found wanting, they should answer personally, not involve where they come from. I also want to confirm that there are people serving in this Government who appearing in court. So many senior officers, Permanent Secretaries (PSs) and Directors are appearing in court for corruption. So, it is not true that we are only targeting those who served in the previous Government. I can confirm that there are investigations going on pertaining to senior members of the Government. Those are mere investigations. It does not mean that when you are being investigated, you are guilty.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that people are making political pronouncements on corruption, and some of the sentiments are based on bitterness. There is no basis whatsoever. We should not continue on the past trajectory, whereby one just made weird and wild allegations without evidence. Building a reputation takes time, but destroying it takes a few seconds. So, we must be careful about the way we want to use the fight against corruption. You will be labelled corrupt when you are not, and when you have no means to defend yourself, people will believe that you are corrupt. Those making allegations must bring tangible evidence against those they are making allegations about rather than just making weird and wild allegations, as that will not assist anybody.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank all those who have supported the Vote.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1848 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 1^stDecember, 2023.

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