Thursday, 23rd February, 2023

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      Thursday, 23rdFebruary, 2023

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MADAM SPEAKER

THE PRESIDENT’S ADDRESS ON THE PROGRESS MADE IN THE APPLICATION OF THE NATIONAL VALUES AND PRINCIPLES

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that pursuant to Articles 9 and 86 of the Constitution of Zambia, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, will address the House on the Progress made in the Application of the National Values and Principles contained in the Constitution. As indicated in the Business Statement, the Address will take place tomorrow, Friday, 24th February, 2023, starting at 0900 hours.

In this regard, and in accordance with established practice, all hon. Members are requested to observe the decorum and dignity of the House during the Address.

I thank you.

DECORUM OF THE HOUSE

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members, I wish to remind the House about some of the rules of parliamentary decorum and etiquette that ensure the dignity and decency of the House is maintained at all times.

In terms of Standing Order No. 204 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, hon. Members are required to:

  1. stop any conversation, and rise in their places, when the Speaker’s procession is entering and leaving the Chamber;
  1. stand silently in the gangways until the Speaker has taken the Chair in a case where an hon. Member enters the Chamber at the same time as the Speaker’s procession;
  2. remain standing in their places until the last person on the Speaker’s procession has completely left the Chamber, after adjournment of the House;
  3. bow to the Chair on entering or leaving the Chamber, or taking or leaving the hon. Member’s seat;
  4. ensure that an hon. Member does not pass in between a Presiding Officer and a Member who is speaking; and
  5. resume the hon. Member’s seat as soon as the Presiding Officer rises to speak or calls out “order” or “a point of order is raised.”

Let me point out that an hon. Member who fails to resume his/her seat when the Presiding Officer intervenes will have his/her microphone switched off by the Information Communication Technology (ICT) staff, and it will only be switched on after a Presiding Officer has concluded his/her intervention.

Any hon. Member found in breach of any of the rules of parliamentary etiquette and decorum will be dealt with in accordance with the rules of the House.

I thank you.

______

MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, today is a short day, and the House needs to be fumigated after we adjourn. So, we will not take too much time on the business that is presented.

In this regard, I remind the hon. Members who are raising matters of urgent public importance to consider if indeed the matters qualify to be raised as such before they are accepted or admitted.

MR KANG’OMBE, HON. MEMBER FOR KAMFINSA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING, DR MUSOKOTWANE, ON MONETARY POLICY RATE INCREMENTS

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 134, I stand to raise a matter of urgent public importance directed at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, and this matter relates to issues that are under his jurisdiction.

Madam Speaker, I will be very quick. On 1st February, 2023, the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) announced that the statutory reserve ratio had been adjusted to 11.5 per cent. On 15th February, the BoZ made another announcement that the monetary policy rate had been adjusted by twenty-five basic points. After these two major announcements, all the commercial banks in Zambia published notices informing members of the public who have loans with them that those loans will be adjusted upwards.

Madam Speaker, there is a lot of anxiety among members of the public. Many people borrowed money from the commercial banks in Zambia and they are worried about the implication of these major announcements by the Government.

Madam Speaker, you have always guided that when there is an urgent matter that requires clarification, the hon. Minister must issue a statement. In this case, the hon. Minister must guide the public on what steps the Government will take to cushion the impact of these adjustments considering that many people owe commercial banks money.

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to not come to this august House with a well-prepared statement to allay fears and raise matters that relate to the increments in the policy rate announcements. You have always guided that when there is an issue, a statement must be issued.

I seek your indulgence, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Petauke Central, today, we are going to dispense with your matter. You cannot be raising matters every day. Today, you are going to rest. I call on the hon. Member for Mpika.

Laughter

MR KAPYANGA, HON. MEMBER FOR MPIKA, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND INTERNAL SECURITY, MR MWIIMBU, ON CADRES BEATING POLICE OFFICERS

Mr Kapyanga (Mpika): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, I rise on a matter of urgent public importance pursuant to Standing Order No. 134, and it is directed at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security.

Madam Speaker, we are witnessing ugly incidents where cadres clad in what looks like United Party for National Development (UPND) regalia are attacking police officers. Initially, this happened in Solwezi and Luanshya, but yesterday, it also happened in Kasama. Hundreds of cadres clad in UPND regalia descended on police officers at a police station. The police officers were attacked by these cadres who claimed that they were there to protect Her Honour the Vice-President. This is worrisome to the Zambian people. Cadres are descending on police officers who are there to maintain law and order.

I seek your indulgence and guidance on this matter, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Let us start with the one by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa. This relates to the announcement by the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) on the statutory reserve ratio which was again reviewed on 15th February, 2023.

Hon. Member for Kamfinsa, the matter that you have raised does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. Of course, the matter is important and it will require the hon. Minister to come and make a statement. So, what we can do is, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa must put in an urgent question and then the hon. Minister will come and answer those questions.

Hon. Members, there is criteria for raising matters of urgent public importance. Who is going to die if the hon. Minister does not say anything?

Hon. Opposition Members: All of us!

Madam Speaker: No. You would want to die, but definitely you will not die. We will see you in the House tomorrow. So, that matter does not qualify. You can put in your question, hon. Member. I understand the matter is important because it affects all of us, but whereas it is so important, it does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. The criteria have already been set so what you can do is put in an urgent question. Liaise with our Journals Department; it will assist.

This also applies to the hon. Member for Chilubi. Yesterday, he asked a question and I am revisiting the dispensation that I gave to him that he should raise a Motion. I think it is better if he puts in an urgent question which can be directed at the hon. Minister of Agriculture and then the hon. Minister can bring a response because the allegations that he made against a particular company need to be cleared as quickly as possible.

Then on the cadres allegedly clad in United Party for National Development (UPND) attire attacking police officers who are allegedly supposed to be protecting somebody, because you have mentioned a person or a member of this House, I am reluctant to allow this matter because now we will end up debating ourselves.

Chapter 5 and Clause 24 of the National Assembly Members’ Handbook 2006 reads:

“While on the Floor of the House, Members should not:

  1. refer to any matter of fact on which a judicial decision is pending, that is, a matter which is sub judice;
  2. make personal reference by way of making an allegation imputing a motive to or questioning the character or reputation of any other Member of the House unless it be imperatively necessary for the purpose of the debate, being itself a matter in issue or relevant thereto;”

So, hon. Members, yesterday we were advising that we should not debate ourselves unless it is completely necessary or it is a subject matter under debate. Since that matter relates to one of our hon. Members, we will not allow it. You can follow up with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security if you feel that issue has to be addressed.

______

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS 26, 27, 51 AND 80

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders No. 26, 27, 51 and 80 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021 be suspended to enable the House to sit from 0900 hours until business has been concluded on Friday, 24th February, 2023, and also to omit the Vice-President’s Question Time from the Order Paper.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Thank you. Hon. Members, as we listen to the Motion, let us maintain some order. There is too much whispering, you will not be following what is happening.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, as the House is aware, Article 86(1) as read together with Article 9(2) of the Constitution of Zambia as well as Standing Order No. 21 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021 requires the President of the Republic of Zambia to attend Parliament and report to the House, the Progress Made in the Application of the National Values and Principles contained in the Constitution. In this regard, His Excellency, the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, will attend and address the House and the nation at large tomorrow, Friday, 24th February, 2023 starting at 0900 hours.

Madam Speaker, Standing Order No. 26 provides that a presiding officer shall suspend business for twenty minutes at 1040 hours on Fridays. In addition, Standing Order No. 23 provides for the procedure for automatic adjournment. Further, Standing Order No. 51 provides for the daily routine of the Business of the House and Standing Order No. 80 provides for the Vice-President’s Question time every Friday.

Madam Speaker, in order for the President to deliver his address uninterrupted, it is necessary for the mentioned Standing Orders to be suspended. It is for this reason that I move this Motion. This is a procedural Motion which is not controversial in any way. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to support it.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, thank you for this opportunity. From the outset, I wish to state that I support the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Madam Speaker, it is very important that the President, in line with Article 9(2)of the Constitution, comes to address the House on National Values and Principles which are containedin Article 8 as morality and ethics; patriotism and national unity; democracy and constitutionalism;human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non-discrimination; good governance and integrity; and sustainable development.

Madam Speaker, on the issue of patriotism and national unity, I feel it is very important that the President speaks to this matter. Every day, in the newspapers andon social media, we are reading about national unity. Yes, we can bury our heads in the sand and pretend that the issue of regionalism is not something to talk about, but I strongly believe, like every other hon. Member of this House, that it is time that we had an honest conversation around it.

Madam Speaker, it is every other day that we see lists being floated on social media andin newspapers regarding employment and many other things.I think that the President should come and speak to this matter so that he puts it to rest.

Madam Speaker, the issue of democracy and constitutionalism; this is yet another topic on which we should have an honest conversation. It is not very long ago – and I do not intend to target hon. Members who may be in this House, but I should speak with sincerity – that we had some of our hon. Members who are not in this House who should have been here, but were disenfranchised. When we talk about democracy, we must be very clear. We must speak about democracy with clarity.

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile:Madam Speaker, the reactions from other hon. Members are natural.However, I remain focused to talk about democracy. When we talk about democracy and constitutionalism, it is just that.In my view,His Excellency the President must come and speak to these matters. That is the reason I am supporting this Motion. I want to hear how committed His Excellency the President is to these very important national values and principles.

Madam Speaker, on the issues of human dignity, equity and social justice, I am happy that the hon. Minister of Justice is in the House and actively participating in this debate. The issue of prolonged detention is something that we have talked about. His Excellency the President, sitting in that seat, has made commitments and undertakings that he will govern this country using the rule of law. He has made undertakings when it comes to detentionsfor bondable offences, but what we have seen is the exact opposite. Colleagues have been detained for even up to a week or two weeks for minor offences. So, we want, as the President comes to this House tomorrow, him to speak to issues of human dignity, equity and social justice, among others.

Madam Speaker, we are in an environment where civil society is quiet and we must be worried. Some of the safeguards in a democracy are provided by civil society. We are now in this Zambia where civil society is totality quiet, and Hon. Jack Mwiimbu is smiling. The danger of compromising civil society is that therecomes a time when itis expected to speak, butcannot.

Hon. Government Members: They are happy.

Mr Mundubile:Madam Speaker, if theysay civil society is happy, I would be surprised that civil society that stands up for human rights is happy to see innocent Zambians detained for long periods of time without being charged.

Madam Speaker, the issues of good governance and integrity, again,are very important. So, in support of this Motion, we have minimum expectations of the President as he comes tomorrow, and this time around, we expect to hear something different. We want him to address this nation to some of the issues that have arisen.

 

Madam Speaker, Hon. Kafwaya, the Member of Parliament for Lunte, has been very passionate about the issues of the Auditor-General’s Office, as it were.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, these are some of the issues that we want His Excellency the President to speak to because they border on constitutionalism. The Office of the Auditor- General is in the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, as I said earlier, the greatness of nations lies in their fidelity to the Constitution, and we want commitment from His Excellency the President that he will pledge full commitment to constitutionalism so that certain safeguards and watchdog bodies that are provided for under our Constitution are protected, like the Auditor-General’sOffice

Mr Musanje: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Musanje: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member speaking was talking about people who are not hon. Members of this House as hon. Members of this House. We are expected to be factual according to Standing Order 65, on content of speech. He talked about people who are not Members of this House to be Members of this House. So, I seek your serious ruling as to whether people who are just out there in the community, who lose court cases and elections, should be regarded as hon. Members of this House?

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members, I believe the hon. Leader of the Opposition was making statements in anticipation of what His Excellency the President is going to say. So, we allow him to speak, and then there will be a reaction from the other side, before we wind-up debate. This is just a procedural Motion which should not attract much debate.

May the hon. Leader of the Opposition continue.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Speaker, I thank you very much. The hon. Member is an old friend of mine, but I also appreciate that he is new to the House and may not be familiar with most of these procedures. I will proceed.

Madam Speaker, to support the Motion, I am saying that we just need some renewed commitment from His Excellency the President to govern this country with fidelity to the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, with those few remarks, I thank you most sincerely.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Madam Speaker, I will be failing in my duties not to respond to the issues that have been raised by the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the Motion, the hon. Member of Parliament and Leader of the Opposition made insinuations that this Government does not respect the Constitution and human rights.

Madam Speaker, it is folly for all of us not to remember what transpired before we came into office. Our hon. Colleagues on your left, when they were in authority, on this Floor of this House, were defending –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members at that back, please, do not debate while you are seated.Your time will come, if need be, and you will be given the opportunity to debate.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am privy to the debate of the then hon. Minister of Home Affairs when he defended detentions exceeding 48 hours on Floor of this House.

Hon. Government Members: Correct.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, he stood here. He said that the law allows detaining people for more than 48 hours.That was in the matter of Hon. Sejani and Others, who were detained without any charge for more than thirty-two days.We told the ones who are crying foul now that that was against the law, but they defended it. However, I stand here, without any fear of any contradiction that there is nobody who has been detained for more than ten days without any failure to meet the conditions.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government has allowed people to campaign freely during elections, unlike what they did when they were in power, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... where, if the President was in the Northern Province, the entire Opposition was not allowed there. What constitutionalism is that? 

Madam Speaker, we are aware that under their reign, members of the Opposition and others could not be allowed to associate. Have they forgotten what they were doing?  Even without following the Public Order Act, we are on record of allowing our hon. Colleagues to enjoy their freedoms.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: They must appreciate what we have done. They must appreciate that the civil societies in this country cannot raise their voice if there is nothing that should be raised. They are happy with the way we are managing the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: So, they should not blame them.

Madam Speaker, under the reign of the Patriotic Front (PF) ...

Mr Amutike: Their brutal reign!

Hon. Member: Bad Government!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... the people of this country were brutalised. There has never been any history of this country as bad as that of the PF. There was no day when we never witnessed people being brutalised in this country. We have not forgotten what use to transpire.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, what we are doing here appears as if we are just playing. There is so much noise, interruptions and debates. Even hon. Members coming into the House late, immediately they just walk in, they start shouting.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: When you are sent out, you will say the Speaker is not fair. Please, let us observe the necessary decorum and etiquette befitting of this House.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we have been reminded that this Government is infringing on the rights of officers at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. According to the rule of law, if there is a breach of the law, the Government of the day has the right to investigate, discipline and if possible, arrest those who have committed an offence. That is the rule of law. There is nothing that has happened that can lead to anyone to imply that there is a breach of law. The officers have been requested to exculpate themselves. That is the procedure. However, because our colleagues may be culpable in this issue, they are trying to defend wrongs that have been committed against the people of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear! Hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Why do they not wait until investigations are completed? If the accused are innocent, they will be exonerated. That is the procedure. When they were in power, they used to punish people before investigations. We will not do that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we, as the United Party for National Development (UPND), stand by the rule of law. We always want to ensure that the law of this country is followed to the later. That is what we are doing. That is why we have allowed our hon. Colleagues to hold meetings or have press briefings even without notifying the police. There is nothing that has been taken against them. That is the rule of law. When they were in power, even when one would notify the police, they would still be in the forefront informing the police to go and stop the meeting and gathering. That is what used to happen. 

Madam Speaker, I am the heard of the police and I have not received any report pertaining to Kasama. There has never been any complaint. Ourselves as the police are happy because there is no complaint that has been received.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: So, my hon. Colleague should not raise a matter that is non-existent.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I allowed the Leader of the Opposition to make a statement and the hon. Minister has responded. What the two hon. Members have said is actually irrelevant to the Motion under consideration. So, we are now going to wind up debate.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members of Parliament!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, this is a non-controversial Motion. It is unfortunate that issues were raised and responded to. In this House, everybody does listen to what goes on.  Therefore, sometimes, when certain things are uttered, they need adequate response. I am glad that the response has been quite adequate. I was wondering whether I should debate but with your guidance, Madam Speaker, I will appeal to the hon. Members on your left to keep their fire, if they have any.

Mr Mundubile: We do not have!

The Vice-President: You do not have?  Do not raise issue that indeed, are non-existent.

Ms Mulenga: Yah!

The Vice-President: Yes! This is true. How do we talk about regionalism today when we are supposed to see unity?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: That is true.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: It is true that in the past, like the hon. Minister said, people went to the extent of dividing others including families because of politics. We will not go that way.

Mr Mundubileinteracted with his fellow hon. PF Members.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The Leader of Opposition is supposed to be helping the Presiding Officer in maintaining order ...

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: ..., but he is the one who is debating while seated.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker:Awe, no!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Let us hold our emotions. Let us not be emotional. Let us cool down.

May Her Honour the Vice-President wind up debate.

The Vice-President: Madam, I am well-guided.

Madam Speaker, what I see is that there will be a lot of debate when the President comes to give a speech on progress made in the application of the national values and principles to do with our land. So, we will wait. Let us always debate serious matters. Let us not be political by bringing issues that do not exist.

Madam Speaker, I thank all those who have supported the Motion from their seats. I also thank the two hon. Members who have debated. At least they have supported the Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

MISSING EQUIPMENT AT ZAMMSA

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to render a ministerial statement on the matter of urgent public importance raised by MrK. Kapyanga, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpika Constituency, regarding the medical equipment and drugs worth millions of kwacha that were allegedly stolen at the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) offices.

Madam Speaker, the brief facts of the matter are that no medicines went missing or were stolen from a ZAMMSA warehouse. However, the House may wish to note that various dental equipment and assorted computed tomography CT-Scan accessories were allegedly removed or stolen from a classified Government warehouse at the airport, and not from a ZAMMSA warehouse. The actual date of the theft is still unknown. However, it is believed that this may have taken place between 2018 and January, 2023. This matter has since been reported to the Zambia Police Service and is currently under investigation. The House and the general public will be informed once investigations have been concluded.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, my colleagues on your left are making sounds. It is, indeed, right for them to make those soundsbecause a theft cannot take place in five years.

Madam Speaker, the ministry tried to get further information concerning the incident, especially that the matter is under police investigations. Therefore, there are certain things that we may not at this point disclose on the Floor of the House for fear of jeopardising investigations. It is suffice to say that the Chairperson of ZAMMSA led a team of officers to the warehouse to check on the equipment kept there after the theft was reported, considering that it happened at a secure place. Details are that the theft was actually an inside job because whoever stolecollected all the dental equipment and the accessories, and the keys are kept by a designated officer at ZAMMSA. The warehouse is only visited during stocktaking, and it is during that time that the loss was discovered. There was a claim at the time that the matter had been reported to the police. However, when the police were taken to the warehouse, they refuted having received the report.

Madam Speaker, the equipment at the warehouse in question was bought in 2018 for the specialised unit still under construction at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). Why this equipment was bought six years earlier for works still underway on the unit is not understood.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, there is a brand-new CT scan and X-ray machine together with all the accessories in stock, currently,at that warehouse, and hon. Members may wish to note that the Ministry of Health has since directed ZAMMSA to take the equipment to UTH as soon as possible to prevent any more theft. In the meantime, the police areinvestigating the matter, and once more information is given, the public will be informed through this House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker:This is a serious matter. It was raised as a matter of urgent public importance, and I used my discretion and asked the hon. Minister of Health to issue a ministerial statement. So, when the hon. Minister is rendering a statement,we should give her the due respect that she deserves. Making running commentaries and laughing while the hon. Minister is delivering her statement isunbecomingof hon. Members of Parliament, especially those who were doing that. It is in breach of our Standing Orders.

Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Health.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, having listened to the hon. Minister’s statement, I was wondering why one would build a house today and shift the following year.

Madam Speaker, if the matter is still under investigations and the hon. Minister cannot give the House and the Zambian people full details on the theft, what then necessitated the Board Chairperson of ZAMMSA to make that serious announcement on media platforms if they had not yet concluded the investigations?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, the Chairperson of the ZAMMSA Board was in order to inform the country because through that announcement, it is hoped that anyone with information in connection with the theft will come forward.

Madam Speaker, the equipment, according to the facts we have, has been in the warehouse for the past five years, and one expects that every year, there isstocktaking. The first report was released last year in March or February, whenZAMMSA officers discovered that some stock was missing, yet no report was made to the police.After the second report was released, that is when there was an alert. However, at the time the second report was given, it was claimed that the matter had been reported to the police, yet no matter was reported.

Madam Speaker, also of interest is that the facility where the equipment has been kept for safety is not a place one would expect a break-in. So, clearly from that fact, one would know that it was an inside job somehow. Unfortunately, this is what is it. At this point,it would still be in order for me asMinister to say that it is unfortunate that the equipment has gone missing. It must be hidden at a private clinic, house or warehouse with the hope of it being resold to the Government. Those are the kinds of stories we found when we took over office. Things could be bought and resold three times to the Government. So, we shared the information on the theft hoping that someone will come forward with information about equipment being stored somewhere whose source is unknown.

Madam Speaker, we are hoping that even our hon. Members on both the left and right can help us in getting some information. Even the public out there listening can assist in this endeavour. I mean, how can huge equipment such as a dental machine be stolen? It is not possible. It is somewhere with somebody.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: So, since the matter is still under investigation, I will only allow four more questions.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, thank you very much –

Mr J. E. Banda: On point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you have been indicating that you want to raise a point of order. What is the point of order, hon. Member for Petauke Central?

Mr J. E. Banda:Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke this opportunity to raise a point of order and it is in relation to Standing Order 131.

Madam Speaker, this point of order is on the hon. Members of this House. Right now, in Petauke, I have got people who are admitted to hospital and anything can happen. Many people’s lives in Petauke can be lost. Due to the hon. Members in this House making noise, I was not allowed to talk on behalf of the people who are sick and this is an urgent matter.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr J. E. Banda: I do not know what I can do because they –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Order, hon. Member for Petauke Central!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you said that the Standing Order under which you raised your point of order is 131. Standing Order No. 131 refers to procedure on how a point of order is to be raised. So, what is the breach upon which you are raising a point of order? You know, this idea of raising points of order so that you can be heard, I think, should not be entertained. It is not acceptable for an hon. Member to engage in such kind of conduct.

Hon. Member, when you raise a point of order, you should raise matters which add value to your constituency and the members of the public who are listening to you. This idea of just standing up in order to allow others to laugh, is not acceptable.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: So, hon. Member for Petauke Central, you are out of order and I expect you as a Whip to behave in a particular way. You are supposed to assist the presiding officers in maintaining order and decorum. What you are engaging in is far below the calling of a Whip.

May the hon. Member for Bwacha continue.

Mr Mushanga: Madam Speaker, I thank the Minister of Health, Hon. Masebo for the statement. Medical equipment was stolen between 2018 and 2022, which is almost four years ago. The revelation of this medical equipment being stolen, I think, was only made a week or two weeks ago. Looking at the period in which this happened, it is very long. This is not the only theft, according to her ministerial statement and also as she was responding to one or two questions a few days ago. Therefore, what measures has her ministry put in place to avoid such occurrences in future and have any arrests been made at all?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, there are two things here. First of all, there is the issue of general and specific security, as indicated in the statement. This particular equipment was not stolen from ZAMMSA. It was stolen away from ZAMMSA, at some warehouse facility in the airport area.

Madam Speaker, what we have done immediately as a ministry is to instruct ZAMMSA to move all the equipment that may be stored there and make sure that it is sent to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH). We have asked the agency to ensure that whatever equipment it receives must not be kept away from the warehouse at ZAMMSA. This is because the ZAMMSA warehouse has a security system. Obviously, it may be safe for me to say that from what I see, the warehouse facility at ZAMMSA may be more secure than where the stolen goods were kept. Furthermore, ZAMMSA has put in place a taskforce against theft of medicines and medical supplies in general as well as ensure safety of commodities in storage and in transit from ZAMMSA to service delivery points.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There was a question on whether any arrests have been made.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, not yet. There are just investigations going on.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, my follow-up question is directed at the hon. Minister of Health. She has informed this House that this activity may have taken place between 2018 and 2023. I am aware that there are many health facilities in Zambia that do not have all the required equipment. We are building health facilities in Kamfinsa and they do not have some of this equipment that is being stolen. Has the hon. Minister asked the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA) or whoever is in charge which list of equipment is yet to be distributed and where these pieces of equipment are supposed to be distributed? This can enable some of us who have got health facilities to receive some of these pieces of equipment that are sitting idle, instead of waiting for very unfortunate reports of theft.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, in the statement, I did indicate that this particular equipment was procured six years ago and it was specifically meant for a facility at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) which was being constructed. So, it was like equipment was bought in advance. It was a situation whereby you are going to construct a hospital and the equipment for this hospital is also bought. That is the information that we received.

Madam Speaker, I want to state that personally, as hon. Minister responsible, I am not satisfied with all these answers from ZAMMSA. So, I would rather we wait for the police to do an investigation instead of giving stories that do not make sense when you add one plus one.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity. I have listened to the hon. Minister’s statement and I would have like it if she had given us the value for what was stolen, unlike us believing what is said on social media. However, my question is: Would the hon. Minister please confirm to us whether there was any audit or stocktaking that was done between 2018 and 2023, the four years gap in which that equipment was stolen?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence. I have stated that the information concerning this whole theft is not making real good sense. It will actually help that we allow the police to carry out an investigation. In addition, I have asked ZAMMSA to really carry out some internal investigation; for example, where are the receipts for the purchase of this equipment; any goods-received notes and are we sure that this equipment was even there? One would expect that every year, there is stocktaking. So, from 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022, what was the result of that stock taking? The value given is K1.6 million. I am not sure. That is why I am saying that we wait for more information.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam Speaker:We will wait for more information, but I had promised that I would allow five questions. The last question is from the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu.

Please, bear in mind what the hon. Minister said onthe investigation being ongoing, as you ask the question.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I commend the hon. Minister for the responses and, indeed, appreciate her predicament because it is very difficult to add up this story for it to make sense. I understand her agony.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said this looks like an inside job and, indeed, now, it is a difficult space because even the police that we are supposed to depend on, we are hearing, are the ones escorting stolen minerals. It even compounds it–

Ms Mulengainterjected.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member of Parliament for Kalulushi, I think I have accommodated you. First of all, you have been making running commentariessince you came in. So, please, let this be the last warning. If you continue on that trajectory, you will find yourself outside.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu, please, do not bring in issues that were raised yesterday. If you recall, I directed the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to come and give a statement to this honourable House regarding the same. So, let us not keep on rubbing salt on the wound.

May the hon. Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu ask a question relating to the theft at the Zambia Medicines and Medical Supplies Agency (ZAMMSA), as guided that investigations are still ongoing and the hon. Minister does not have all the information that she would require to handle this matter.

May the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, that is most appreciated and I am well-guided.

Madam Speaker, the equipment that was stolen is very critical to our people. Therefore, will the hon. Minister consider requesting for a joint investigation team which could give confidence in view of what she said about it the theft looking like an inside job? The ministry may need a team that can provide oversight. Is the ministry considering requesting for a joint investigation team to look into these matters other than relying on one security unit, which may be compromised?

Mr Kang’ombe: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, I rise on Standing Order 202 on Privileges of a Member, and my point of order is on the hon. Minister of Health.

Madam Speaker, I asked a question that, apart from that equipment that was stolen, is there any other that is yet to be distributed and is available for distribution to some health facilities that we have to avoid the risk of even it being stolen? The question was not answered.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa, by way of direction or guidance, that question that you asked does not arise from the statement that the hon. Minister made. If you want, you can put in a question to her and then she will be able to give details of the equipment that is available and which hospitals it is supposed to be given to. So, regarding that matter, I think the hon. Minister omitted to say that she did not have that information.

May the hon. Minister answer the question from the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the former hon. Minister of Home Affairs since he is the one who recruited most of those police officers andis giving me that advise. I will take that into account and ensure that we engage other wings of the Government in addition to the police.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: These jabs will never end. Let us make progress.

Laughter

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PLANS TO CONSTRUCT MINI-HOSPITALS IN KALABO DISTRICT AND OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY

164. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Health:

  1. whether the Government has any plans to construct mini-hospitals in Kalabo District and other parts of the country;
  2. if so, how many hospitals are earmarked for construction in the district;
  3. when the plans will be implemented; and
  4. if there are no such plans, why.

Mr Miyutu:Madam Speaker, the question I am about to ask, I am sure, appeared within this sitting. So, I am sure of the response. The recurrence of this question shows how much we need these mini-hospitals. Otherwise, I withdraw the question because it was handled earlier on.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Question, by leave,accordingly withdrawn.

EMPOWERMENT PROGRAMMES IN FISH FARMING FOR WOMEN AND YOUTHS COUNTRYWIDE

165. Ms Nakaponda (Isoka) asked the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock:

  1. whether the Government has any empowerment programmes in fish farming for the women and youths, countrywide;
  2. if so, when the programmes will be implemented;
  3. what the annual targeted number of beneficiaries is; and
  4. if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Mr Chikote): Madam Speaker, yes,the Government has empowerment programmes in fish farming for women and youth countrywide.

Madam Speaker, in actualising this, the ministry is promoting the expansion and the intensification of fish farming across the country, targeting both women and youth under the Zambia Aquaculture Enterprise Development Project (ZAEDP), Lake Tanganyika Development Project (LTDP) and Agriculture Productivity and MarketEnhancement Project (APMEP).

Madam Speaker, the empowerment programmes are ongoing in all provinces of Zambia. Calls for applications for would be beneficiaries are made and once selection is done, beneficiaries undergo training on undertaking fish farming as a business.

Madam Speaker, the target number of beneficiaries in 2022 was 985 under ZAEDP and Lake Tanganyika Development Project, which were running at that time. S total of 1,115 beneficiaries were empowered out of which 599 were women and 516 were youths.

Madam Speaker, in view of the answers to part (a), (b) and (c)of the question,part (d) falls off.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, I have raised this question because in my constituency, there were fish farmers who got loans through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) and the farm inputs were delivered late. This led to the feed getting expired and farmers getting low number of fingerlings. Why is the ministry not giving the farmers loans directly into their accounts so that they can procure the fish farming inputs instead of giving them through the CEEC? 

Mr Chikote:Madam Speaker, I was in Isoka recently and I interacted with farmers to make them understand and appreciate the programmes that we are running as the ministry regarding fisheries and livestock. It is unfortunate that the information that the hon. Member is giving did not arise and as I am responding to the hon. Member’s question, I do not have such complaints from Isoka. However, the reason we do not give cash directly to the farmers is very simple.

Madam Speaker, CEEC is just a fund manager. The programme is run by the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. Our co-operating partners who are helping us to support fish farming in this country have signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with us to agree on the modalities and systems of how to enhance fish production. Unfortunately, the conditions that have been set protect our farmers from diverting the money to other programmes. What we do is to help our farmers to identify the supplier and bring the quotation to our institution which is the fund manager. The fund manager will then pay the supplier and then the supplier will do the needful to our fish farmers. So, that is the system which is in place. Hence, we protect our farmers from doing wrong things and this is done by our extension officers at district level. With regard to what happened in Isoka, I would have loved our officers to know so that they could have found a quick solution to the challenges that our farmers are going through there.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda(Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, the question that has been asked by the hon. Member for Isoka is a very important especially that it expands the scope and brings it to countrywide level. Hon. Minister, the fisheries sector is supposed to be one of those sectors that are adding critical numbers to the country’s quest for job creation and the need to become the net exporter of fish. The question that has been asked is critical in the sense that the impact as the hon. Member has stated, is not felt on the ground. It is well-intended but somewhere, there is some clogging. Even with the programme through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), there is some clogging. Would the ministry be in a position to consider an audit of this particular programme, bearing in mind those small-holder farmers may not really have a voice and an avenue to reach out to the hon. Minister? These concerns are real because we get them from Kanchibiya and other parts of the country. Would the ministry consider an audit in that regard, so that we know whether there has been malpractice under this particular programme?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, the issue concerning the challenges that our fish farmers are facing under these programmes which are being run the Ministry of Fisheriesand Livestockis well-known. The hon. Member may wish to note that the aquaculture intervention for this country to reduce the deficit of fish in this country is a new idea. As the ministry, we are aware that there are certain bottlenecks that need to be addressed such as quality fingerlings, fish feed and other factors that may help farmers to perform very well. So, as a ministry, there are certain bottlenecks that we have identified. We are in progress to making sure that we address some of these challenges. 

Madam Speaker, we are yet also, to bring some policy direction as soon as possible to make sure that certain challenges that are affecting the sector are addressed.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nakaponda:Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has accepted that there are some challenges that are affecting our farmers in Isoka. Why is the ministry not thinking of changing the mode of paying these fish farmers instead of leaving the issue as it is?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, I have indicated that this intervention is a new idea and there are so many factors that we have realised need to be addressed to help our farmers. Issues to fund our farmers directly also have their own s its own negative impact on our farmers. So, we are making sure that all the bottlenecks that are affecting the industry are addressed. That is an assurance that I am giving the hon. Member. We are also working hand in hand with our co-operating partners who are supporting this programme to make sure that those challenges our farmers are going through are addressed. We are committed to these programmes to make sure that our farmers have very conducive conditions for them to perform very well in the production of fish. This idea was brought up to make sure that we improve on the deficit the country is facing in terms of fish production.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, I come from a constituency which is blessed with water bodies. The hon. Minister talked about beneficiaries. What are the key selection criteria for the beneficiaries so that people in Chimwemwe who are in to fish farming can also benefit from the programme?

Mr Chikote: Madam Speaker, all what the ministry does is to advertise and the would-be farmers apply. So, when they apply, we look at what they have. Like in the hon. Member’s case, he said that there is plenty of water in Chimwemwe, and that is one of the requirements. We also look at the viability of a farmer and we considerthe requirements that that farmer has. When the would-be beneficiaries meet the requirements, the ministry then approves their applications. So, the people in Chimwemwe should find out more from our extension officers in that district to understand how aquaculture programmes are running in this country. We have staff across the countrywho help us give information to the people who have interest infish farming.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

PLANS TO EMPOWER WOMEN AND YOUTH CO-OPERATIVES IN CHITAMBO DISTRICT WITH AGRICULTURAL MACHINERY

166. Mr Mutale (Chitambo) asked the Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development:

(a)          whether the Government has any plans to empower women and youth co-operatives in Chitambo District with agricultural machinery;

(b)          if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

(c)          if there are no such plans, why.

The Minister of Small and Medium Enterprise Development (Mr Mubanga):Madam Speaker, the question was first directed to the hon. Minister of Agriculture, but then, it was redirected to me because of my mandate.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through my ministry, has plans to empower women and youth co-operatives across the country, including in Chitambo District. My ministry is currently empowering women and the youthacross all the sectors in the country, and Chitambo District is among the districts that will benefit from such plans.

Madam Speaker, the Government, through my ministry, has already started receiving applications from the women and youth-led co-operatives across the country, including those in Chitambo, who wish to be empowered in various projects related to agriculture. My ministry, through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission(CEEC), will soon start giving outthe funds to the successful applicants for viable businesses.

Madam Speaker, based on the answer in (a) and (b), the question in (c) does not arise.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitambo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has just mentioned that he has been receiving applications from the women in Chitambo, but he has not indicated to the House when he will implement the programme of giving the women in Chitambo agricultural equipment.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chitambo for the question. I think I did, and I saidwe are receiving applications. So, the hon. Member should encourage the women in his constituency who have not applied to apply. Afterwards, we will look at those applications andthe people in Chitambo and the country at large will benefit.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, since the formation of the ministry, the mode of empowerment that we saw was inviting young people to State House to receive cash.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Fube: I saw that activity, so, I am not talking about something that I never observed. That is where the event was; I think the hon. Minister knows. What is the main mode of empowering people because cash handouts have failed?

Mr Hamwaata: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hamwaata: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65, which states that a member who is debating shall ensure that the information he/she provides to the House is factual and verifiable. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to insinuate that people receive money in tantamenior queues at State House without laying the facts on the Table?

Madam Speaker:To the extent that the hon. Member for Chilubi stated that people are empowered through receiving money at State House, he was out of order because he did not provide any supporting information.

Hon. Member for Chilubi, please, be factual, and if it is in relation to old times then, state that in the olden days, this is what used to happen. You may continue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, can I be given an opportunity to qualify what I said.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, ask your supplementary question.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, I am now being suppressed.

Madam Speaker, my question was that: What is the main mode of empowering young people and women? Is it through cash or machinery because cash has failedfrom the –

Interruptions

Mr Munsanjeinterjected.

Mr Fube: Madam Speaker, am I protected? I do not expect –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chilubi!

Hon. Members from both sides, avoid interjecting and interrupting the hon.Member on the Floor. Let us give each hon. Member an opportunity to ask his/her question. I believe an hon. Member is free to ask a question, and a necessary answer will be provided.

May the hon. Member for Chilubi continue.

Mr Fube:Madam Speaker, I hadwound up my question. I would like to know the mode the Government is using to empower people. It is through cash or machinery because modes can qualify what success is or not? That is what I would like to find out from the hon. Minister.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is asking the model we are using to give the public; the youth and the women the empowerment fund.

Madam Speaker, as the New Dawn Government, we advertised this fund through my ministry under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) where we asked the public to apply. When they apply, they can access a number of empowerment programmes that we give out, or rather a number of products that we have developed like mechanised farming. If one wants to apply for a tractor, he/she is free to do so and he/she will be able to access the implements. There is also straight financing. If you have got an order or a contract and you do not have the capital, you can apply and the commission will be able to finance your project. It could be in small-scale mining or anything else. This Government, through my ministry, under the CEEC, is also giving empowerment to small-scale miners.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The question was: Does your ministry give cash or equipment? I think you did not come out clear on that.

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, we are not giving cash or lining up any of our youths, women or the public to come and get cash. We are following the applications and then financing the projects. If it is machinery, that is the model we are using.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. Due to time limitations, I will only allow two more questions.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, the application forms that the ministry has provided are written in English. It is becoming a challenge for our local people to read and be able to interpret those forms. Is there a possibility that the ministry can help us with forms which are in vernacular so that most of our women access forms?

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, yes, at the moment, the forms we are giving out are in English. However, as a ministry, we have a programme where we are going district by district teaching and giving skills to our people and the entrepreneurs who are in those districts. We will try and ensure they also apply for the fund in their own local languages. That means we will be translating the forms into all local languages in our country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I want to find out when the advert for receiving applications started running so that the people of Chitambo and others do not miss out. Could the hon. Minister tell us when the dead line is?

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, we have been running this programme for close to two months now and it came to an end last Monday. However, we have left it open until tomorrow.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, we appreciate the responses coming from the hon. Minister. However, we may need to bear in mind that there are some empowerment programmes that are under the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Arts, especially for youth cooperatives. I think that is where we have a problem of tantameni kind of dispensing funds. Is the ministry collaborating with –

Mr Kangombe:Tantameni meaning what?

Mr Kampyongo: Meaning youths queuing up and the hon. Minister dishing out money.

Now, is the hon. Minister by any chance sitting with the Ministry of Youth, Sports and Arts to streamline which youth cooperatives they will be dealing with and what the Ministry of Youth, Sports and Arts is going to deal with so that there is no duplication in the programmes being undertaken, especially in rural areas like Chitambo Constituency?

Mr Mubanga: Madam Speaker, my ministry cuts across all ministries and sectors. As a ministry, we are not dealing with the youths alone. So, it is a little bit difficult because my mandate is for every Zambian whether young or old. As long as they have got energy to do businesses, we are able to support them. Therefore, it is a bit difficult for me to draw a line because we are looking at empowering all Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ELECTRIFICATION OF WARDS IN ISOKA CONSTITUENCY

167. Ms Nakaponda (Isoka) asked the Minister of Energy:

  1. whether the Government has any plans to electrify the following wards in Isoka Parliamentary Constituency:
  2. Mpungu;
  1. Kanyala;
  2. Kawandama;
  3. Milongo;
  4. Nkombwa;
  5. Lwangwa; and
  6. Chinyonga;
  1. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and
  1. if there are no such plans, why?

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala): Madam Speaker, the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) has plans to electrify Mpungu, Kanyala, Kawandama, Milongo, Nkombwa, Lwangwa and Chinyonga wards.

Madam Speaker, REA has planned to visit the wards under the 2023 planning programme to conduct feasibility studies to establish the scope of works, bills of quantities (BoQs) and the cost of electrification. However, the subsequent electrification of the wards will be subject to availability of funds.

Madam, part (c) of the question has been addressed in our response to part (a). Therefore,it falls off. However, I will give additional information.

Madam Speaker, REA will undertake the feasibility studies to establish the scope of works and cost of the electrification project for the above-mentioned wards in Isoka Parliamentary Constituency in September, this year. The project to electrify the wards was not initially captured as part of the RAE masterplan. However, REA has since captured the wards in the 2023 Feasibility Study Plans.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will allow only three questions as time is ticking.

Ms Nakaponda: Madam Speaker, when are the funds going to be available? I believe electricity brings a lot of factors that promote national development and I do not want my people to be left out of this development.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I have indicated to the hon. Member of Parliament for Isoka that the wards in question have been captured and feasibility studies will be undertaken. So, it is only after feasibility studies are done that the project cab be costed and budgeted for.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, again, it is not very clear when the plan will be implemented. Could the hon. Minister be clearer to the hon. Member so that the residents in those mentioned wards are also clear on when the programme will be implemented, even if feasibility studies have started.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I think you should encourage your hon. Members to pay attention when hon. Ministers are responding to questions.

Laughter

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I have indicated that the feasibility studies will start in September this year. Only after those feasibility studies are done and costed can the project be implemented.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: So, you see, hon. Members, when you do not listen, I am the one who is blamed.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, we should always pay attention.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the project would be undertaken when funds are made available. That is what he said in the first instance, and in the last explanation, he said there will be some feasibility studies that will start in September. Is the hon. Minister telling the nation and this House that the feasibility studies commencing means that money is available? Is he telling us that money for this project is available?

Madam Speaker: I hope the hon. Member was listening.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, yes, the money for the feasibility studies is already budgeted for this year.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

STALLED CONSTRUCTION OF THE KALABO RESOURCE CENTRE

168. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts:

  1. why the construction of the Kalabo Resource Centre in Kalabo District has stalled;
  2. when the construction works will resume;
  3. what the cost of the project is;
  4. who the contractor for the project is; and
  5. how much money was paid to the contractor, as of February 2022.

The Minister of Information and Media (Ms Kasanda)(on behalf of the Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts (Mr Nkandu)): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament may wish to note that the construction of the Kalabo Youth Resource Centre, located in Kalabo District, stalled due to a fundamental breach of contract by the contractor due to poor workmanship.

Madam Speaker, the resumption of the project is dependent on the availability of funds and, when funds are available, the ministry will engage a new contractor to resume works.

Madam Speaker, the contract sum for the construction of the Kalabo Youth Resource Centre is K23,958,343.50

Madam Speaker, the contractor for the project is Almut (Z) Limited and, as of February 2023, a total sum of K4,477,978.40 was paid to the contractor.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate the way nature acts. Okay, there is perpetuity and continuity, despite change of the Government. However, the hon. Minister will answer on behalf of those who were there for the mismanagement of programmes in this country: Between the breach by the contractor and the lack of funds, which one occurred first?

Madam Speaker, these questions were supposed to be for those people there (pointing at the PF Bench).

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: See now –

Madam Speaker: Let us not debate ourselves. I think we had maintained some harmony in the House. Let us continue with that harmony.

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, let me just give some additional information. The contract for the Kalabo Youth Resource Centre was awarded in 2013 and the contractor moved on site in 2014. The construction works stalled due to a fundamental breach of contract.

Madam Speaker, in 2015, the Ministry of Youth and Sport engaged the Road Development Agency (RDA) Central Laboratory Unit to undertake Quality Control Verification Tests on the Kalabo Youth Resource Centre in the Western Province. The findings of the tests were as follows:

  1. the constructed slab of the youth resource centre did not meet the required strength. The entire slab developed severe reflective cracking and, in an effort to mitigate the defects, the contractor plastered the cracked areas;
  2. sampled blocks used for the construction of the building were found to be below the specified standard for building blocks; and
  3. engineers from the RDA disapproved the structure and recommended for it to be demolished.

Madam Speaker, let me add that we toured around the country and found that a number of youth resource centres were neglected. I will give an example of the one in Kafue; students were sleeping in a chicken run because they were neglected.

Just to add on, Madam Speaker, K520 million was allocated for youth resource centres. Unfortunately, our colleagues, instead of using that money for the resource centres, used it to buy – what do you call those buses? – Higer Buses.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Ms Kasanda: Those Higer Buses were bought. As I speak, Madam Speaker, twenty of those Higer Buses were impounded and twenty of them were stripped.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: I am on the list to ask questions.

Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65. The Acting hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Arts, who is on the Floor of this House, is insinuating that the money that was meant for works which were already contracted – she knows that contractual payments are made on a pro rata basis, meaning that contractors are paid as and when they tender their certificates. What proof has she got to lay on the Floor of this august House that the money which was meant for those contracts was misapplied? That should have been an audit query. What proof has she got to back her allegations that the money which was meant for these youth resource centres was taken towards the procurement of Higer Buses, which could have had their own budget line?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, the hon. Minister has got information within the ministry. So, if there is a need for verification, I am sure it can be provided. However, that is the information she received as she was processing this question. So, she is in order to refer to that aspect.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, I encourage my colleague, the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu to come to the office where I am acting minister at the moment, to get further information.

Madam Speaker, before I was interrupted, I was talking about the Bill of Quantity (BOQ) of US$23 millionthatwas given to the ministry. From that amount, only US$4 million was paid towards that resource centre. However, before I sit down, I would like to give comfort to my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo that come 2024 – As he is aware, this Government is truly working.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, I want to give the hon. Member comfort that come 2024, we will be on the ground to construct the Kalabo Resource Centre.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, naturally, things just happen and whatever happened, it was for a reason. When one loses a position for the other, it is for a reason. Naturally, it is like that. So, it was meant that this project would fail in order to give way to the United Party for National Development (UPND) to create a new Government …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu:… that would assure the people of Kalabo that in 2024, they would see the creation of the Kalabo Resource Centre.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There is a point of order. Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you can take this opportunity to ask your question.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, yes. In fact, I will withdraw the point of order and ask the question.

Madam Speaker, I want to put it on record that when the hon. Member for Kalabo Central was pointing here, the other fingers were pointing back at him. Some of us who have been in this House long enough remember that the hon. Colleague was the Deputy Minister in this ministry under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, and I even went to this site with him.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! 

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Kampyongo: Do not argue. You were not there.

Mr Mung’andu: He failed to construct the resource centre.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I went to the site with him.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us not debate ourselves.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the record has to be set straight. My colleague was the hon. Deputy Minister under this ministry and I remember going to the site with him. 

Madam Speaker, the performance of contracts is guided by the law.When contracts are entered into between the Government and contractors, there are instruments that contractors have to put up which are known as performance bonds. I hope my senior engineer on my left who has been a consultant for a long time will agree with me.When contractors want to access their money, they can either get it through advance payment or advance bond with a percentage corresponding to the money they are asking for. The payments that are made for works that are done on a pro-rata basis are made based on certified certificates.

Madam Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether they have evoked the provisions of these contracts using the instruments that I have cited which are tendered by the contractors so that the country can be given accurate information?

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker,I was very clear, from the onset, that there was misappropriation of funds. I must clearly put it on record that there was a lot of confusion in this ministry during Patriotic Front (PF).Therefore, we are trying to resolve the confusion that is there. Once we are done, we will come back and report to this House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us make progress. We do not have enough time.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, you are out of order. 

PLANS TO REHABILIATE LUSANGAZI BRIDGE

169. Mr E. Daka (Msanzala) asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

  1. whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate the Lusangazi Bridge in Msanzala Parliamentary Constituency; and
  2. if so, when the plans will be implemented. 

The Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate the Lusangazi Bridge in Msanzala Parliamentary Constituency. The plans to rehabilitate the Lusangazi Bridge in Msanzala Parliamentary Constituency will be undertaken once funds have been secured.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr E. Daka: Madam Speaker, the people of Msanzala are on their knees asking the New Dawn Government to find money as soon as it can to work on the bridge as they are unable to cross the bridge. They are unable to accessanything from the other districts. I do not really know how the New Dawn Government is going to help the people of Msanzala as this is really a challenge and we cannot wait until we find the money.

Madam Speaker: There is an appeal from the hon. Member for Msanzala to the Government to come to the aid of the members of Msanzala Constituency. Hon. the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, any comment?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, it is a genuine appeal. The only thing that touched my heart is when he mentioned that people are on their knees. There is no need for any citizen of this country to be on their knees to ask the New Dawn Government to do what it came into power for.

Mr Mubanga: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the rehabilitation of the Lusangazi Bridge was part of the project for upgrading the Petauke to Chilongozi Road, Lot No. 1, which was awarded to Messrs China Civil Engineering Construction Corporation (CCECC) which covered the stretch of the road from Petauke to Sonde Gate up to Chilongozi.

Madam Speaker, this contract was terminated at the request of the contractor due to none payment for the works undertaken. We are concerned with this bridge. The hon. Member and I have been in consultations. I have engaged the regional manager for Eastern Province for the Road Development Agency (RDA) just to make it passable whilst we are waiting for a much more permanent solution. The revised contract sum is about K289 million. However, as I said, we continue to undertake some relevant interim interventions. We will continue to engage with the hon. Member to make sure that at least, our citizens are able to cross.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, with that elaborate explanation from the hon. Minister, let us make progress. We do not have much time.

KALABO/SIKONGO ROAD CONSTRUCTION PROJECT

170. Mr Miyutu asked the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development:

  1. why the Kalabo/Sikongo Road construction project has stalled since 2018;
  2. when the project will resume;
  3. what the cost of the project is; and
  4. what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the construction of the Kalabo/Sikongo Road has stalled owing to the termination of the contract due to funding challenges.

Madam Speaker, the project will resume once resources for the required works have been mobilised.

Madam Speaker, the cost of the outstanding work will be determined once a new contractor is procured.

Madam Speaker, the project timeframe is estimated at twenty-four months from the date of commencement.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central and I have talked about this project. I will, therefore, provide more information.

Madam Speaker, this project was contracted under funding from the middle eastern countries, but the Government of the Republic of Zambia was also supposed to put in some counterpart funds. Unfortunately, the Government of the Republic of Zambia then, was unable to put in counterpart funds. Therefore, the main funders for the project went away.

Madam Speaker, first of all, this road is very important to the plans of the New Dawn Government to foster trade between Zambia and our neighbours. Angola is the only country with no road linkage to Zambia inspite of the fact that the two countries have a border length of 1,100 km. The New Dawn Government intends to change this through two crossing points. The first one is through the road from Mwinilunga to Ikeleng’i to Jimbe, and the second one is from Tapo to Kalabo to Sikongo and to the border. We have been having active discussions with our neighbours on the other side, which culminated into the President’s state visit to Angola and a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed with our neighbouring country, concerning the two crossing points. So, the hon. Member and his constituents can be assured that this road is a priority of the New Dawn Government.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I will just take two questions beginning with the hon. Member for Kamfinsa.

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development has informed this House and the nation that a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed between Zambia and Angola, and there isa possibility of attending to this huge challenge. Is the hon. Minister confirming that funding will come from either Angola or the Zambian Government?

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, when an MoU is signed, the responsibilities of the two parties are well known. Angola willundertake works from the other side of the border at a place called Ninda, where there is a very rough road on the Angolan side,and from Ninda, to a place called LumbalaN’guimbo. So, Zambia will undertake works on its side and Angola on its side. For this road to open up trade between Zambia and Angola, it has to be linked on both sides.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I am a very disappointed Member of Parliament …

Hon. UPND Members: Why?

Mr Mung’andu: … because the people in Kalabo – and the hon. Minister is very lucky that the hon. Member for Kalabo Central has not even cried.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu:Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell the people of Kalabo the timeline of the project?The Zambian people put our colleagues in office because they said they would fix everything, including working on the roads that the people of Kalabo need. Can the hon. Minister tellthe people in Kalabo,whom we love so much, when the project will be implemented? Will it be implemented next year, after next year, or in the election year when the people will see what the hon. Minister has just explained come into fruition?

Madam Speaker: I noted that the hon. Member for Chama South just walked in. We were enjoying peace and harmony in the House, and he wants to rabble rouse.

Laughter

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Chama South wants the hon. Member for Kalabo Central to cry, but there is no need for him to cry, because he understands the intentions of the New Dawn Government.

Madam Speaker, fosteringtrade is part of our overall plan to grow the economy, and the President has made it clear that one of the methods of growing the economy is to foster trade. Since the market here in Zambia is small, with 19.6 million people, we have to look to our neighbours, to increase our market size. In order to do that, there has to be road linkages between our neighbours and ourselves, and that is why we are focusing on roads that connect us to our neighbours. On some roads, we are using public private partnerships (PPPs), and forothers, we will use our own resources. The plans on this road are advanced, and I appeal to the hon. Member for Chama South who appears to be sympathetic to the people of Kalabo for the first time, in the last ten years he was not, to be patient.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I have followed the hon. Minister’s answers; well done. However, for the Kalabo/Sikongo Road to be economical in the Western Province, it would have to be connected to other important roads in the province. My question is:Is the hon. Minister able to give us feedback on the progress on the Watopa/Lukulu/Katunda Road? That road is interlinked and is of economic benefit to the people of the Western Province.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Minister answer.

Eng. Milupi: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the concern shown by the hon. Member for Matero. People like him should be presidents of parties…

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

ng. Milupi: …because they have a national outlook on matters. However, all these roads are under serious consideration.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_______

MOTION

REPORT OF THE ZAMBIAN DELEGATION TO THE PAN AFRICAN PARLIAMENT

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Zambian Delegation to the Pan African Parliament (PAP) for meetings held during the First Session of the Sixth Pan African Parliament between 24th October and 9th December, 2022.

Madam Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order No. 146 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021, I rise to give a statement on meetings attended by the Zambian delegation to the Pan-African Parliament (PAP) during the First Session of the Sixth Pan-African Parliament from 24th October, 2022, to 9th December, 2022.

Madam Speaker, the National Assembly of Zambia was represented by the following hon. Members of Parliament:

  1. Mr Miles B. Sampa, MP, leader of the delegation and chairperson of the PAP Committee on Audit and Public Accounts;
  2. Ms Mirriam B. Chonya, MP, member of the PAP Committee on Co-operation, International Relations and Conflict Resolution;
  3. Ms Kampamba Mulenga, MP, member of the PAP Committee on Rules, Privileges and Discipline;
  4. Mr Newton Samakayi, MP, member of the PAP Committee on Transport, Industry, Communications, Energy, Science and Technology; and
  5. Mr Menyani Zulu, MP, member of the PAP Committee on Rural Economy, Agriculture, Natural Resources and Environment.

Madam Speaker, the House, may wish to note that PAP is the legislative organ of the African Union (AU). It was first proposed for establishment in 1991 in the treaty commonly known as the Abuja Treaty establishing the African Economic Community. However, it was only set up in 2004 by Article No.17 of the Constitutive Act of the AU, and is, therefore, one of the nine structures of the AU. Membership is based on a country’s membership to the AU. Each member state is obliged to send five Members of Parliament, and failure to do so may result in sanctions from the AU.

PAP sits in Midrand, Johannesburg, South Africa. It holds four mandatory meetings annually. These include two ordinary sessions held in May and October, and two committee meetings held in March and August.The vision of PAP is to be a continental institution harnessing the slogan one Africa, one voice. Its mission is to provide a common platform to represent and act as a voice for the people of Africa by representing their opinions, concerns and aspirations, and ensuring accountability in the use of African public resources.

Madam Speaker, the original setup of PAP was for it to perform full legislative functions for the African continent. The actualisation of this is dependent on the ratification of the protocol establishing PAP by at least two-thirds of the member states of the African Union. However, some countries have not signed the protocol and PAP does not yet have legislative powers. This means that it cannot effectively represent the people of Africa and cannot provide an oversight role over resources of the continent. It also means that PAP cannot enact enforceable legislation on member states. As a result, it only comes up with model laws whose adoption by member states is not mandatory.

Madam Speaker, there is an urgent need to push for the ratification of the protocol establishing the PAP to make it effective and grant it legislative powers. It is, therefore, my request to this august House to expedite the approval of the protocol as Zambia is one of the countries that is yet to ratify it. The strength of the continental parliament reflects the strength of national parliaments, ours included. The call to ratify the protocol can, therefore, not be overstated.

Madam Speaker, a number of meetings were held last year following the resumption of the operations of the continental parliament after a suspension owing to leadership challenges and the advent of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). All meetings culminated into the work of the plenary during which the model law on food and nutrition security in Africa was adopted.

The PAP develops model laws that member states can tap into during their legislative processesin addressing challenges akin to the African continent. The laws act as a guide for national parliaments to develop laws that follow a standard approach across all countries on the continent. The model law aims to enhance food and nutrition security in Africa by improving food value chains and making access to adequate and nutritious food a right for the African people. It also addresses issues of food markets and trade, food security, food diversification and food reserves. It also urges African countries to find their niche in the global food chain process through value addition and preservation of indigenous local foods.

Madam Speaker, the development of the model law on food and nutrition security in Africa was based on an analysis of over 175 pieces of legislation from thirty-five African countries. It was subjected to various reviews and input by parliamentarians and technocrats before its adoption. The model law, once implemented by member states, is expected to help improve the overall food security situation on the continent.

Madam Speaker, as hon. Members may be aware, the African continent has some of the highest levels of poverty despite having the most fertile and arable land in the world. It also has the most diverse range of indigenous foods. However, most of it goes to waste due to lack of sustainable methods of food preservation.

Madam Speaker, there was general consensus by all African parliamentarians that Africa had the potential to be self sufficient and food secure, considering the abundance of arable land and availability of a diverse range of indigenous foods.

The continental Parliament resolved to adopt the model law with the hope that its implementation by Member States would help address various food and nutrition challenges and provide standard procedures for addressing food and nutrition challenges in Africa.

Madam Speaker, the model law is, therefore, submitted for consideration by the National Assembly of Zambia for adopting it as a whole or incorporating components of it into local legislation.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the delegation is grateful to you for affording it the opportunity to represent your Parliament at the continental Parliament. As you may have noted, a number of insightful deliberations and products were realised from the delegation’s attendance of the meeting.

Madam Speaker, the delegation, therefore, recommends the adoption of the model law on food and nutrition security and the commencement of the process for the ratification of the Protocol Establishing the Pan African Parliament (PAP) in order to pave way for PAP to be a true voice of the African people.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Menyani Zulu: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to second the Motion. The proposer of this Motion, which is very important for all us in our continent, Africa, has given us a good insight into what is happening in the Pan African Parliament (PAP).I will be quoting a few things from this write-up because some issues are Committee positions.

Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to second the Motion on the Floor of this House. I wish to appreciate the Motion. The proposer has ably explained what is happening at PAP and what we are undertaking, as a Parliament.

Madam Speaker, PAP undertakes work focussed on enhancing our overall wellbeing, as African people on the continent.

Madam Speaker, my hon. Colleague has ably highlighted the details of the model law on food security and nutrition in Africa, which has been developed to help align and standardise the continent’s food and nutrition priorities across Africa.

Madam Speaker, at PAP, we have come up with a model law on food and nutrition. Africa has not attained food security. You will agree with me that the food situation on our continent is very bad. If Zambia has grain today, you find that Zimbabwe or the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) does not have.

Madam Speaker, we are coming up with a model law so that we do not suffer as Africans and do not import what we can supply within the African continent. This is the model law we are proposing. After it is fine tuned, it will come and reach us here in Parliament and we will need to make a decision over it.

Madam Speaker, we have just seen that a war in Europe affects Africa as a continent where food security is concerned and our people suffer. So, we have decided to come up with a model law which is going to help us safeguard the food security of this continent.

Madam Speaker, in addition, we have also proposed new model laws on sustainable soil management, at which we have not done well as a continent; and on nationality and statelessness. There is a good number of people that has been declared stateless. If we go deep into this issue, we will find that some people could be declared stateless. So, we are trying to come up with a model law to address that and sort it out.

Madam Speaker, we are also looking at a model law that will deal with manufacturing and how we are going to handle related issues as a continent. We want to see how we can do this and develop as a continent, and not just as Zambia?

Further, there is also the law on co-operatives. You will agree with me that currently, we give out so much money to co-operatives. If you ask the people on your right about the money going out to co-operatives, you will find that some of it cannot even be traced. After we empower people, we are trying to see how they are going to be sustained under those co-operatives.

Madam Speaker, we have also agreed that we are going to draft a model law on gender equality. We need to look at that. I think we all understand what the Maputo Protocol is all about. I think the people who were in this Parliament before even went to Maputo and came up with something on gender equality. These are the things we have said we should enhance from where our hon. Colleagues left off.

Madam Speaker, allow me now to also talk about the most important thing. The Maputo Protocol is an international human rights instrument established by the African Union (AU) in 2005. It aims to guarantee comprehensive rights to women and girls, and includes the right to take part in social, economic and political processes and to make decisions they deem fit for all females.

Madam Speaker, despite most countries, including Zambia, having ratified the protocol, little has been achieved. For us here, we are lucky that for the first time, we have you and the First Deputy Speaker. This is not a mean achievement. However, if we look around, there are only 15 per cent women in this House. If we are look at the hon. Members seated in here today, there is less than 10 per cent women. That means we are not doing well. We are saying that we need to find a solution to improve the participation of women in politics.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, there is so much whispering and talking. If you want to have a chat, you can go outside and have a chat. When you have exhausted your chatting, you can come and join us, but you need to listen to the seconder so that when you debate, you are within context.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Speaker, what we are saying as PAP is that although Zambia ratified this Parliament, a few other countries have not done so. So, it does not have full legislative powers, but it is proposing that we need to introduce gender equality programmes in schools and universities.

Madam Speaker, we are also saying that Member States should also ratify the African Continental Free Trade Area (AFCFTA) and put in place programmes to empower women to actively participate in free trade. We are also proposing that Parliamentarians in Member States should monitor the implementation of the AFCFTA, with particular focus on women’s participation in order to create an enabling environment for women’s investments and businesses.

Madam Speaker, we also recommend that Parliamentarians in Member States should develop laws and policies that enhance and promote the active participation of women in informal cross border trade. The women who are involved in cross border trade have a hard time. So, we need to see how we can handle this issue.

Madam Speaker, additionally, Member States should also intensify the initiatives for the inclusion of women and youth in co-operative activities in the informal economy and rural areas. You will agree with me that rural areas are the most affected places which are not being helped. However, we are thankful to our new Government that we have some money going into rural activities. So, what are we saying? We need to do more regarding this issue.

Interruptions

Mr Menyani Zulu: As I conclude, allow me to emphasise the need for Zambia to seriously consider implementing those recommendations in order to uplift the plight and voice of women and girls in the country.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, remember that the Assembly Chamber has to be fumigated. So, we do not have the luxury of time. Please, bear with me if I curtail the debate. Let us also, not repeat what has already been said so that we yield some time to other hon. Members. We want to accommodate as many hon. Members as possible.

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for the chance to submit my humble opinion on the Motion on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, I take note that the Motion is very good and the contents thereof. I know that when it comes to voting, I will vote for the Motion. However, I have some serious concerns on institutions or organisations in Africa. I note that this report is from the Pan-African something–

Laughter

Mr Mulebwa: In the same Africa, we have–

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, can you describe the document as it is supposed to be. If you say,“something”, what are the people who listening going to think of this report?

Mr Mulebwa: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, it is the Pan-African Parliament (PAP). We also have the Southern African Development Community (SADC) andthe Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA). All these are from Africa.I keep wondering when we are going to be the real Africa and stand for one thing, support it, promote it, and see it to fruition.

Madam Speaker, my concern really, is that we seem to be pulling ourselves to different directions. Much as we have all these good model laws, I think there is some wastage in the way we are using our resources. We would have been a formidable continent if we focused our energies and efforts on one thing.

Madam Speaker, that is my little concern. I support the Motion but, with a concern that it is high time as Africa, we pursued one thing and brought it to fruition.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to make a few comments on this Motion, ably moved by the Acting Leader of the Delegation for the team that goes to Pan-African Parliament (PAP),where he is urging this House to adopt the report of their participation.

Madam Speaker, I support this Motion with a bit of reservations because our delegation has come with two recommendations. Its first recommendation is to request this august House to ratify what is popularly known as the Abuja Treaty, which establishesPAP. At the same time, it is also requesting this House to adopt the model law on agriculture and nutrition.

Madam Speaker, the challenge is that it is an egg and chicken kind of situation. The request that this delegation is making for this august House to ratify the treaty should be made to the Executive. The role of the Executive is to ensure that it does the necessary conveyances through the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operationand the hon. Minister of Justice, who should bring this treaty to this legislative arm of Government for ratification.This way, PAP can have the legislative authority to enable it legislate and come with substantive laws which African Parliaments can adopt. That is why it is saying that most of the countries are reluctant because it is not mandatory that African Parliaments can adopt the law that it is proposing.

Madam, Speaker, first things first. The first thing that we need to do, Acting Leader of the Delegation, is to request this august House to recommend to the Executive to institute the process of preparing the conveyance to bring this treaty to this Parliament for ratification. We cannot continue to be among the countries that have not ratified this treaty and yet, we are sending our hon. Members of Parliament to PAP.

Madam Speaker, I think that is what we should start with. That way, we can start considering the laws that will be coming from that Parliament.  This takes me back to the debate that we had on the African Court on Human and People’s Rights (African Court). The Motion on African Court was brought here for us to ratify. Again, we depend so much on the laws that will be coming from this Parliament. So, we should not be thinking that eggs come first and the chickens later.

Madam Speaker, I thank the delegation for making sure that it reports to us whenever it comes back from its tour of duty. This is commendable but, we need to take steps that will make our participation at PAP relevant and grounded on the functions of Parliament as it were. Currently, when hon. Members go there, it is like a talk show because they deliberate and come up with resolutions which are not mandatory for anyone to adopt. So, until such a time when we are able to have the legislative authority, we shall have a meaningful PAP.

Madam Speaker, therefore, the correct thing do here is to request the Executive through the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation, the Minister Justice, and Her Honour the Vice-President, who is here to ensure that the process commences to ensure that this treaty is processed for onward conveyance for us to ratify it. That way, the hon. Members can be going to PAP with authority as a delegation. Even their submissions to that Parliament will be respected.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. Let me also thank the Acting Leader of the Delegation that went to this very important institution, the Pan-African Parliament (PAP).

Madam Speaker, listening to what the Acting Leader of the Delegation just highlighted, clearly, we are seeing a big continental problem. Indeed, those who are privileged to have travelled across the length of this continent will discover that problems are almost similar. Is it by design that the problems that we the people Zambia are facing are the same problems that the people of Uganda, Sudan, Kenya, Botswana, and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) are facing? They are almost the same problems. Is it that we are homogeneous as Africans when it comes to these problems? Probably the answer is no. It has much to do with the human capacity to solve these problems.

Madam Speaker,the hon. Minister talked about agriculture. Africa is endowed with the best soils, but we just learnt that much of the grain that Africa depended on was coming from Ukraine, yet Zambia in particular maybe has a better land mass to produce the grain that was coming from Ukraine, not to mention Uganda, which has two seasons. What is the problem with us Africans?

Madam Speaker, what the leader of the delegation stated gives us an opportunity to start thinking. Can we start thinking of how best we can come out of our problems. Our problems will not be solved by the so-called investors, either from the west or the east. African Parliaments need to start making laws that will enable them take their Executives to account, and systems of governance that are parliamentary as opposed to presidential tend to be more beneficial to the people.

Madam Speaker, African Parliaments have a commingle of systems. South Africa follows the parliamentary system where the power of the Executive is derived from hon. Members of Parliament. Hon. Members of Parliament elect representatives who elect the President. In contrast, here the power of the Executive is derived from the people. So, for me, if this continent is to progress, African Parliaments need to make decisions that dovetailinto the executive decisions. For example, when it comes to agriculture, we just talk about the endowment of natural resources, but we also have precious minerals, and the world is fighting over Africa. They shared this Africa during the Berlin Conference, and now they are coming back in form of what we call investors. So, when Parliaments in Africa meet, it should not be just a talk show, which I believe has been the case for many years. When Parliaments meet, they should discuss about making laws, which will ensure that patriotic citizens of this continent make laws and decisions that defend their citizens.However, this will not be easy, in view of the continent being viewed as the resource base.

Madam Speaker, we see our brothers and sisters dying in numbers as they try to cross to Europe, and we hear reports that 200 people died. At times, developed countries deliberately devise a system to eliminate the migrates who try to cross to their countries. Has the Pan African Parliament ever tried to address that? The answer is no. Parliamentarians meet at a specified venue and get allowances.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mung’andu:That is what happens. They enjoy and warm seats, yet we have continued having problems.

Madam Speaker, my submission is that the next delegation that will go to PAP should shake that Parliament and look at the real problems that the African continent is facing. Do we have governance institutions, established across the continent, which can deliver the needs of the good citizens of this continent?I am trying to exhaust the remaining minutes; this a very emotional topic for me a Pan Africanist.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I know you are capable and we have trust in you. This year, when hon. Members travel for this important meeting, they should have the necessary skills so that our Parliament can participate at a high-level, and probably champion the needs of the African continent.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, before we proceed, let me guide in relation to the issues raised by the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu in his debate regarding the recommendations that are contained in the report. Basically, we are adopting the report of the committee. Once it is adopted, it will be referred to the relevant committee for consideration and follow-up action. This is in accordance with Standing Order No. 146 (5), which says as follows:

“(5)        On a day determined by the Speaker, the leader of the delegation or a member of the delegation, on behalf of the leader of the delegation, shall by motion, present an executive summary of the report, highlighting the key recommendations contained in the report.

(6)     Upon the report being adopted, the Speaker shall refer the recommendations in the report to an appropriate committee for follow-up action.”

So, the issue of ratification is already contained in the report. Once the report is adopted, it will be given to the committee, and it will follow up with the relevant ministry.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor, on the report of the delegation that went to the Pan African Parliament (PAP). I am excited because the Committee brought up a very important issue on gender equality, and I will dwell mostly on that issue.

Madam Speaker, I understand that PAP was set up to ensure that African countries fully participate in economic development and integration of the continent. Without the full participation of women, we cannot attain full economic development. Women are the majority in Zambia and other African countries, and they need to participate fully in all the issues pertaining to economic development. We need support from all African leaders, and Parliamentarians, including those who are here, to make sure that we attain gender equality. Margaret Thatcher said, “if you want things said, ask a man. If you want things done, ask a woman.” If one carries out a research, one will find out that mostly, it is the women who work in the fields and produce more food in our continent. So, they need support.

Madam Speaker, this report is very important. African countries can come up with their own laws that can compel the Government to ensure that there is gender equality and more women participate in politics, are Parliamentarians and are in key decision-making positions. If that is done, that would help us as a country. We can take a leaf from most African countries. For example, in Namibia, Kenya, and Rwanda, they are performing well; there are more women in Parliament. We are not under rating the men, but we need to join hands with them. We will not succeed if men go ahead of us, and it will be difficult for us to attain full economic development.So, I emphasise that we need the support of the men.

Madam Speaker, I support this report fully. When we will be undertaking electoral reforms, we will need the support of the men. Men need to support the women. We need to come up with a quota zebra system which can favour women, so that we can have a good number of women in Parliament. I ask my fellow Parliamentarians not to feel intimidated that if they raise up a woman, a man will drop. That is what is killing us. There are other ways we can use to increase women’s participation in politics. So, we need full support from the men.

Madam Speaker, I felt that I needed to mention that and recommend to your Committee that there is a need to ensure gender equality and support women and girls in secondary schools. One of the things that make women not to participate is education, but when you support them and make sure that they are educated, they will have the confidence to come here and speak. Women are not like men. A man can stand up and speak broken English, and there is no problem, but a woman is always mindful of how others will look at her. So, there is a need to push women towards attaining education.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Halwiindi:Madam, we need your support and we also need economic support because when we are financially equipped, we will have the confidence to go out there and face the people even when we are campaigning.

Madam speaker, I know that we need to fumigate this place. I would have said more, but allow me to end here.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Namwala, you indicated a bit late. I had already closed the list. So, please, bear with me. I have to manage the time. Hon. Member for Lumezi, please, we will appreciate if you can yield some time.

Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi): Thank you kind Madam Speaker, and permit to say I will speak as a Pan Africanist and not as a sexist.

Madam Speaker, to appreciate the recommendations made to your Committee, I wish to put it on record that as the delegation meets, as Pan Africanists, we must come to terms with the fact that Africa is grappling with so many challenges. We have got hunger to deal with, we have got the Human Immunodeficiency Virus and Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS), the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) and women are fighting to occupy the rightful positions in the governance systems of many countries in Africa.

Madam, it is difficult, honestly, to support a Motion that states that women should occupy positions because they are women. Africa is at war not only with itself, but also with developed nations that wake up on a particular Tuesday to tell us that tomorrow, Cyclone Freddy will reach Zambia. Tomorrow, no African can wake up and say we found a vaccine to cure COVID-19. However, when a vaccine such as Johnson & Johnson comes to Africa without going to any scientific laboratory in Africa, it is administered unto to us on pro bonobasis. Then, we still have people who support an agenda that women should be given leadership roles. I do not think so.

Madam Speaker, women should be given those responsibilities when the men have conquered the many challenges that women cannot contain.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, I know our country has done a bit better. Had we not had those difficulties, I do not think gender equality would have been an issue, but we are at war. You cannot send a woman to the battlefront when you are looking for someone to prepare a meal for foot soldiers.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu:Madam, we still have a future, but allow the men to fight the many battles that Africa is grappling with.

Ms Lungu: Question!

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, even here, we are sympathetic when asking female hon. Ministers questions because we do not want to put then harm’s way. However, we are more brutal with our fellow men.

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I am rising on a point of order in accordance with Standing Order No. 65 regarding women or men. Women cannot be sent to war. Is the hon. Member in order not to place on the Table of the House any scientific evidence that shows that gender has an effect on the integrity of a person or any evidence that shows that gender has any effect on the physical wellbeing of a person? Is the hon. Member for Lumezi in order to continue demeaning the mothers who keep lives until they are seen physically on earth?

I need your serious ruling, Madam.

Madam Speaker: If I was also allowed to say ‘question!’, I would have said ‘question!’

Laughter

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Lumezi is definitely out of order. We have many women who are fighting in wars and are doing many things. So, please, if that is your opinion, we accept it. We can give you the benefit of doubt, but please, that line is not supported by any evidence that you can lay on the Table that shows that because somebody is a women, she cannot do certain things. So, hon. Member, just recast your debate on other things. You may proceed.

Mr Munir Zulu:  Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I also thank the hon. Member for Kalabo Central for that point of order.

Madam Speaker, I love to read. I have taken quite a lot of time to read the Bible and the Quran which I believe in.

Laughter

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam, I am yet to find a verse or a script be it in the Bible or the Quran where a woman was sent as a Prophet of God.

Madam Speaker, I have got a lot of respect for women. I sympathise with women and my wish is not to see them in harm’s way. Zambia is a privileged country, not only on the African Continent, but also in the world as we have not experienced the uglyscarsof civil unrest. Should it happen that we find ourselves in such a predicament, no woman would want to be stoned, but men are ever ready to rise to the occasion and be stoned.

Hon. Members: Ah!

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, …

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you were guided. You had women like Mama Julia Chikamoneka of this world. They were the ones who were in the forefront throwing stones and being stoned even at a point undressing themselves. There is no evidence that men undress themselves in order to protest.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: So, let us debate within the context of what is on the Table. You may proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Munir Zulu: I thank you and appreciate your guidance, Madam Speaker. I also appreciate that the House can afford to smile when we are discussing Pan-Africanism.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, we must rise to the occasion as an African people. We must realise that time has come for us to stop being told what challenges we have. It is time for this generation to rise to the occasion and provide solutions that are going to remedy the many problems the African people are faced with.

Madam Speaker, in the morning, I had a privilege to watch a clip of the Namibian President telling a delegation from Germany that they should not come to African and tell us what to do. No one should come to Africa and dictate to us what to eat, what to wear or where to borrow our resources from. There is no time for us to dictate to the imperialists Governments. Why, then, do they come here and dictate to the African people? So, the next delegation that takes these trips should bear in mind that this country had given birth to the likes of Dr Kenneth Kaunda, Reuben Kamanga, Grey Zulu, Alice Mulenga Lenshina and Mama Julia Chikamoneka so that we can be in a position to fight for our own needs.

Madam Speaker, it is a pity that yesterday, we were being warned about the Cyclone Freddy. I will be attending the Nc’wala Ceremony and I do not know whether the Eastern Province will be affected or not. We need to get to that level, as Africans.

Madam Speaker, I submit and thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, the report is very important and calls for all of us to pay particular attention to the clarion call that is being made by our colleagues from the Pan African Parliament (PAP)

Madam Speaker, African Agriculture and Agri-Business ought to be a catalyst for ending poverty on the continent. Agriculture ought to be Africa’s engine for growth. In terms of our comparative advantage as a continent, we have the water, land, human resource and the best climatic conditions yet still remain poor and food insecure.

Madam Speaker, even as PAP brings this report, it is important for us to say that a time has come for us to get back and revisit the New Partnership for Africa s Development (NEPAD). One of Africa’s problems is that we start with good initiatives and interventions, but with change of leadership guard, we discard what was good and start to pursue and reinvent the wheel. The moving away of President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa and Olusegun Obasanjo of Nigeria at the time, has not served well for the NEPAD. Had Africa, PAP and the Africa Union (AU) been consistent in ensuring that we domesticated NEPAD and its agenda for agriculture, the issues we are discussing today would not even be raised by PAP. However, we are accustomed to re-inventing the wheel and doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. We believe that is the route to calling ourselves geniuses.

Madam Speaker, how can Africa reclaim the agriculture agenda? It must be a shame that with the comparative advantage we have as a continent, we still depend on Russia, Ukraine and France for much of our grain. We must be ashamed as a continent. We have all it takes to turn the tide and begin to feed the world.

Madam Speaker, whose crops is Africa growing? Growing up as a little boy, I knew that we would go to the field. We never knew about fertiliser. Our indigenous seed has disappeared before our very own eyes. So, today, we are being treated to high breed seed and fertiliser. We do not pay particular attention to the harmful effects on the environment. Tomorrow’s succeeding generations will judge this generation harshly for refusing to take what should have been prudent guidance in preserving the environment, the soil and ensuring that we are food secure. The climate we talk about is human induced. It is a sin that we have committed and have ourselves to blame. Maybe we will account for it on that day when we stand before our creator.

Madam Speaker, we must, from the point of view of PAP, confront the capitalism within the agricultural sector. Even as we localise and domestic this debate, we find that our poor farmers, who are small holder farmers, are used basically as tools of production for us to attain food security. Thereafter, we forget about them and ask them to go and find their own market.

Madam Speaker, Africa has its own market. It can grow its own crop and has its own market. It can also feed the world. The biggest question that we also ought to answer is why we are still dependant on imported grain, as I earlier alluded to. Here is a country in Africa with 40 per cent of fresh water still importing fish from China. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves as a continent.

Madam Speaker, Africa’s food market according to the World Bank Report of 2013, could create US$1 trillion opportunity by the year 2030. Now, how do we unlock this opportunity for our small holder famers? In supporting this report, I urge hon. Members to take the recommendations from this report seriously, but also go over and beyond, that food security, like food insecurity, is a threat to national security and continental security.

Madam Speaker, a person who controls your nutritional and food issues will control your destiny. Africa ought to reclaim the agricultural space; we have all its takes to feed the world. For me, it is gratifying that platforms such as PAP could look at agriculture, and look at it seriously and say, can we interrogate and see how we can take this matter seriously. How do we become that power house at continental level? How do we begin to turn the tide? Can we feed the world instead of us depending on Russia, France and Ukraine for grain?

Madam Speaker with those few remarks, I support this report.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: I do not know whether there are any indications from the part of the Executive? If there are none, may the hon. Member for Mwinilunga wind-up debate.

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Members who have debated in support of the Motion; the hon. Member for Kafulafuta; hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, whose concerns you have ably handled; and hon. Member for Kanchibiya, who debated with passion like mine.

I also thank the hon. Member for Lumezi, although I do not agree with him because I think we want to give women space in development.

Madam Speaker, as for the Hon. Member for Chama South, we are just like him; we have passion and intelligence, just like he has. I do not think it is right to demean colleagues who go to PAP. There are a lot of issues that we have discussed and we have the capacity to debate. We even debate at PAP; we do not sit idle. There are issues that we have discussed and Zambia has had its voice heard in PAP on issues to do with employment for the youth on the continent and mismanagement of our resources by imperialists. We have discussed those issues. We have also discussed gender equality issues and coup d’etat on the continent. Those are the issues we have confronted.

Madam Speaker, I can assure you that you have the right people representing Zambia very well at the continental stage.

Madam Speaker, I thank all the hon. Members who debated this issue.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

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ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1801 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 24th February, 2023.

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