Wednesday, 14th December, 2022

Wednesday, 14^thDecember, 2022

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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Madam Speaker: Since we do not have a quorum, can we have the bells ring again.

Madam Speaker: I do not know whether it is fatigue or whatever it is, but we still do not have a quorum. The bells have rung for seven minutes. We will give the House another twenty-three minutes. If there is no quorum, we will have to, unfortunately, adjourn until tomorrow, which is the next sitting day.

Whips, please, can we have the hon. Members in the House so that we can continue with the business. We only have forty-eight hon. Members at the moment. We need fifty-six hon. Members for us to constitute a quorum.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us not leave our seats and go outside. We need to have fifty-six hon. Members sitting in the House for us to have a quorum. Can all those hon. Members who are in the lobbies, please, come in. We only have two days left to debate and this is a Budget Meeting. We cannot transact any business if the quorum is not constituted. By 0934, if there is no quorum, unfortunately, we will have to adjourn until tomorrow, in accordance with our Standing Orders. So, please, Whips, can we make sure that we have hon. Members in the House.

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MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR J. E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON THE HON. MINISTER OF WATER DEVELOPMENT AND SANITATION, MR MPOSHA, ON THE SHORTAGE OF WATER IN PETAUKE

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central this opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. The good people of Petauke have a problem, especially in Nyika Ward, where there is Chimate, Tasala, Garden Compound, Hillside and Fairview. It has been raining continuously for about three days and where they have been getting water from wells, the water is dirty due to the rainfall.

Madam Speaker, as we are talking now, people have not even reported for work because they do not have clean water for bathing or drinking.

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: You have got time also. You have got your microphone, so indicate and then do whatever you want to do. Why are you interfering?

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, are you raising a matter of urgent public importance or you want to engage other hon. Members? If you want to engage, you can do that outside. We have a lot of business on our Table. So, please, can you get to your matter of urgent public importance.

Mr J. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. I am sure they are now able to understand the Standing Orders because they can only talk when you –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, can you please resume your seat. Can we make some progress.

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

NHIMA BIOMETRIC MEMBERSHIP CARDS

Madam Speaker: I inform the House that the National Health Insurance Management Authority (NHIMA) has been authorised to issue biometric membership cards to hon. Members of Parliament and staff who registered with the authority during its last registration exercise conducted from 10^th to 13 October, 2022.

During the card collection exercise, the authority will also register hon. Members of Parliament and staff who may have missed the initial registration exercise. The programme will take place on Thursday, 15^th December, 2022, here at Parliament Buildings’ main reception area from 0900 hours to 1700 hours.

All hon. Members are encouraged to collect their biometric cards or register with the authority in order to have access to health facilities in NHIMA accredited health institutions around the country.

I thank you.

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MOTION

INCREASE FOREIGN CURRENCY DAILY DEPOSIT LIMITS

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to increase foreign currency daily deposit limits in commercial banks.

Madam Speaker:Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke Central the opportunity to move this Motion.

Madam Speaker, allow me to register my profound gratitude to you for according me this opportunity to move this non-controversial Private Member’s Motion, which seeks to urge the Government to increase the foreign currency daily deposit limits.

Madam, from the outset, I would like to mention that the objective of this Motion is to safeguard our people from the risk of keeping huge sums of foreign currency in their homes simply because of the existing threshold of foreign currency daily deposits in the country.

Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that huge amounts of foreign currencies are generated on a daily basis by individuals and companies doing various businesses across the country. However, it is sad to note that on account of existing foreign currency daily deposit limits, recipients of foreign currency are not able to deposit all the funds into commercial banks dotted across the country. For example, in 2020, Zambia earned around US$20 million from the tourism sector. Some of this money was paid directly in Dollar to various vendors such as lodge owners, for various services, tour operators, curios traders, among others. Consequently, these people who received Dollars may want to deposit all the foreign currencies in various commercial banks.

Madam Speaker, for your information, the daily deposit limits are regulated through issuance of commercial bank circulars by the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). As you may be aware, since 2010, three commercial bank circulars have been issued by the BoZ to adjust the foreign currency daily deposit limits as follows:

Commercial Bank Circular No. 6 of 2000 provides for foreign currency dailycash deposit limit of US$5,000 for account holders and US$1,000 for non-account holders.
Commercial Bank Circular No. 18 of 2015 raised daily deposit for individual account holders from US$5,000 to US$20,000. The circular provides for foreigncurrency daily cash deposit limit for registered companies of US$100,000. Non-account holders were left at US$1,000.
CommercialBank CircularNo. 08 of 2021 maintained the daily cash deposit for individualaccount holders at US$20,000 and for registered companies and organisations at US$100,000. It, however, raised the daily limit for individual non-account holders(Individuals and registered companies and organisations) from US$1,000 to US$5,000. Further, the circular provided for US$100,000 as the threshold for bureaus.

Madam Speaker, in view of the foregoing, it is important to increase the existing foreign currency daily deposit limit in order for our people to stop the risk of keeping foreign currencies in their homes. Keeping huge sums of money in homes is very risky because criminals can trail our businessmen and women and rob them of their hard-earned money.

Madam Speaker, in addition to ensuring the safety of the people who keep foreign currency in their homes, since there is no option of depositing the money, ... will afford banks an opportunity to conduct due diligence on the legitimacy of transactions and detect any potential financial crimes. This is provided for in the Financial Intelligence Centre (Amendment) Act No.16 of 2020, which states, in Section 24, that:

“A reporting entity shall exercise ongoing due diligence using a risk based approach with respect to a business relationship with a customer which includes –

scrutinising transactions undertaken throughout the course of that relationship to ensure that the transactions being conducted are consistent with the financial service provider’s knowledge of the customer, their business and risk profile, including where necessary, the source of funds;
maintaining current and accurate information and records relating to the customer or beneficial owner; …”

Further, depositing the money in the bank will foster the growth of the formal economy. This will result in a positive impact on the financial system liquidity.

Madam Speaker, increasing the foreign currency daily deposit limit will also help to increase foreign reserves which are backup funds in case of an emergency, such as the rapid devaluation of the currency. Additionally, increasing the foreign currency daily deposit limit will help to stabilise the Kwacha which has continued to depreciate.

Madam Speaker, I am alive to the fact that increasing the foreign currency daily deposit can lead to illicit financial transactions, such as money laundering. This should not be the reason to deter the Government from adjusting the foreign currency daily limit as we have enough laws to curb suspicious or illegal transactions.

Madam Speaker,this House may wish to note that it is a requirement for financial institutions to report suspicious transactions. For example, Section 16 of the Financial Intelligence Centre Act provides as follows:

“16 (1) A reporting entity shall identify its customers and verify its customers’ identities by means of reliable and independent source documents, data or information, when –

opening an account, or otherwise establishing a business relationship with a customer;
a customer, who is neither an account holder nor in an established business relationship with a financial service provider,wishes to carry out a transaction in an amount equal to, or above,a prescribed amount whether conducted as a single transaction or several transactions that appear linked …; and

(e) there is a suspicious of money laundering, financing of terrorism or proliferation or any other serious offence relating to money laundering, financing of terrorism or proliferation involving the customer or that customer’s account.

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to reiterate that on account of the foreign currency daily limit imposed on the commercial banks, most people are forced to keep huge amountsof foreign currency in their homes or they dig in the ground and make their own banks against their will. This undesirable act makes the people vulnerable to loss of their hard cash through theft, fire, frauds and even loss of life.Therefore, to mitigate such risks, the Government needs to increase the foreign currency daily deposit limit.

Madam Speaker, I, therefore,urge all hon. Members to support this non-controversial and progressive Motion for the benefit of the people and business community, and all those in national parks who work with tourists and the nation at large.

Madam Speaker,with those remarks, I beg to move this Motion for the benefit of the business community in our country and everyone, including us, because when we are buying goods from outside the country, we useUnited States (US) Dollars, which is a foreign currency.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, thank you once again for allowing me to second the proposal that has been made by the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central Constituency.

Madam Speaker, I want to indicate from the outset that I had an opportunity to sit down with the mover of the Motion to understand what he is thinking and trying to communicate. This is because if all of us here do not understand what he is trying to propose perhaps, we may not be able to understand the solution to the problem. I will try and give examples to simplify the proposal that the mover has made today.

Madam Speaker, this proposal is about commerce, trade and ensuring that the wheels of commerce move faster. This proposal is about ensuring that the different categories of people who are doing business are able to secure their money and send out money to facilitate for instance,the procurement of items, and I will give two or three practical examples. I will start with the different types of traders whom we have in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, you are aware that in Zambia, we have those who are informally and formally trading. I am aware that some people formalised their businesses,and they registered companies and started doing business, and this is very common.For instance,in Kitwe,there is a very big market called Chisokone Market. If one had an opportunity to visit this trading facility,one will discover that many Zambians despite operating at ChisokoneMarket, have huge volumes of businesses. For instance, some of them import equipment, tools and goods that are in excess of the limit that is provided for today in the law, and I will give an example. If someone wants to buy items from China, and needs to make a payment in a day of US$30,000, with the current Bank of Zambia (BoZ) regulation, that person cannot deposit the US$30,000 to buy the items that are needed for his business in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, the current limit which is provided for under a circular by BoZ says that one can only put US$20,000 into one’s account for one to be able to buy the commodities. So, what hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central is saying is that if a trader or a Zambian wants to facilitate the procurement of items say outside Zambia and needs to put some dollars into his/her account before sending it outside, the limit currently is US$20,000. So, instead of the US$20,000 that is the allowable limit today, the mover is proposing that can we adjust it to any figure that the BoZ will deem more necessary than the current amount.This is very common among most people who are trading.

Madam Speaker, I know there might be an argument that what about those who have companies.A company and a sole trader who is an individual are totally different. Not everyone who is raising money today through business is able to actually formalisehis/her business right away. So, I sat with the mover to understand what he is saying, and he is simply saying that if one has dollars which one has earned genuinely and wants to facilitate trade and procure items for business,let us change the limit from the current US$20,000 for individuals, US$100,000 for companies and US$100,000 for bureau de change to a figure that will allow someone to facilitate his/her trade.

Madam Speaker, this Motion is about trade and allowing individuals to rise money. I know someone will argue that why can the payment not be made electronically. There are individuals who have been in the business of selling vehicles on the streets. People go to them and tell them they have cash and they will issue an invoice and get the money,and they will need to put that money in an account.The mover is simply saying that we need to provide for the different scenarios or situations that are prevailing.

Madam Speaker, what we have prevailing is that there are Zambians earning dollars on a daily basis more than the limit that has to be put in bank.The mover is saying why can we not rise that limit so that once onerises that money,one issues an invoice. Other mechanisms can be put in place for the Government to understand whether that money has been earned genuinely or not. So, the mover is urging the Government and the BoZ to raise the limit.

Madam Speaker, in terms of regulation, the Bank of Zambia Act No.5 of 2022 is okay. The law is fine. What is wrong is the regulation is that the Bank of Zambia is given the mandate to vary the figure. We do not want to change any Act of Parliament here for us to achieve what the mover is proposing. What the mover is proposing is that for it to be achieved, all we need is to do is to agree today and then the instruction goes to the Bank of Zambia so that it issues a new circular. It will not require any amendment of the existing law.

Madam Speaker, I believe that the mover had a situation in mind. I believe that for the mover to bring the proposal here, and for your Office to be kind enough to allow this Motion on the Floor, the reflection in the movers’ mind was how we would provide for the different many of Zambians who have dollars and need to use them or any other foreign currency to buy items for trade. This is exactly what the mover is proposing.

Madam Speaker, I stand here to support the proposal that the mover has made. I believe that the context of the Motion needs to be understood. The context is that if, currently, we have no mechanisms to monitor where these dollars are coming from, that is a different conversation. This House can come back and say…

Interruptions

Mr Kang’ombe: …if the problem is the source of the dollars, can we find a mechanism to find out the source of the dollar. However, to limit Zambians that have earned genuine dollars to put that money into their accountsimply because of a different problem then we are not dealing with the real problem. The real problem is that there are Zambians that want to put more dollars into their accounts, more than the current limit. This is what the mover is proposing.

Madam Speaker, I support the proposal. It is a business, commerce and trade proposal. I do hope that the House do understand the context in which the proposal has been made.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the chance to echo the voice of the good people of Solwezi East Constituency in Mushindamo District.

Madam Speaker, the mover of the Motion and the seconder seem to be contradicting themselves. There is a thin line between the intention which they are trying to advance here and what is obtaining. One should bear in mind or ask questions.First of all, why should one keep many dollars or foreign currency in their homes?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: Madam Speaker, if one asks that question, there must be an answerat the back of their mind. Secondly, one could ask where they got huge amounts of foreign currency because we have laws in the country.For instance, in certain jurisdictions, you cannot keep over US$2,000 cash. After you do your transaction to get such kind of money in foreign currency, you are supposed to surrender it to the bank within ninety days. If you keep the money, it means you have certain evil intentions. So, what is the intention beyond the issue of keeping money in homes? In fact, when you look at the issues relating to illicit financial flaws, this is where the benchmark of the issue being raised on the Floor of this House is. Illicit financial flaws start from such kind of behaviour of one keeping money in their homes. It is an illegal way of cleaning money …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: …which has been acquired through criminal activities such as drug related crimes and embezzlement. Those are the issues. If I clearly heard the mover of the Motion talking about us not looking at the source of the dollars; that is where the key is. Why hide that point? We should also ask whether the dollar is a legal tender in Zambia? The answer is no. We have the Kwacha. We should also look at the reason the Bank of Zambia put up regulations to guard people against keeping dollars or foreign currencies in their homes.It must be understood and respected. So, the people of Solwezi East are saying that this Motion is a brought-in-dead (BID), as we would call it in medical terms.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katakwe: It is frivolous. It has actually shown that somebody is keeping huge amounts of foreign currency in their homes and they want to use this House to sneak in the dirty agenda which has been happening. It does not need a rocket scientist to understand the agenda of the Motion. It is plain. A person on the street can understand that this is a way of trying to sneak in the dirty monies that have been acquired and accrued over time into the banks. If anything, they have had enough time to change it into the legal tender, transact and keep the money in the banks. After all, if I want to buy or procure any equipment outside the country, the banks have the jurisdiction to convert the legal tender, the Kwacha, into foreign currency. That is the legal way of doing things.

Madam Speaker, let me not go further with my debate but just to say that the Motion is a BID. It does not need the House to support it. Any person with a right frame of mind cannot support such a Motion.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe:On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There is a point of order. What is the point of order?

Mr Kang’ombe: Madam Speaker, the immediate past debater has used the words ‘any person with the right frame of mind cannot support this Motion’. I have just seconded the Motion.

Interruptions

Mr Kang’ombe:Is the debater suggesting that a person who holds a Degree in Electrical Mechanical Engineering is not in his right frame of mind?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!It is the context in which the debater used. So, from the context, he was just expressing his view. If hon. Members have contrary views, just take note and then you can rebut whatever the debater said.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, unfortunately I will be one of the people who are – Let me not start with this.

Madam Speaker, I come from a rural constituency just as a good number of hon. Members here. Where I come from, the only industry we have is agriculture. A good number of the farmers in my constituency are able to grow 600 bags of – I will not go into those nitty-gritties of how the Act says what. One farmer is able to grow 600 bags of groundnuts. When you go to Kipushi, a border in Solwezi East, Mushindamo District, with truckload of groundnuts today, you will sell a 50kg bag at K1,000multiplied by 600 bags on a truck, which is thirty tonnes, that gives you K600,000. The Congolese will never pay you in Kwacha.

Mr B. Mpundu: No!

Mr Menyani Zulu: They will pay you in dollars. A normal sensible person has to take the money to the bank.

Mr B. Mpundu: Yes!

Mr Menyani Zulu: That is a normal person. The normal person will say that the money I have has been earned genuinely and I need to go and deposit it. When you go to the bank, they will ask you the source of that money. A normal person will say it was earned from farming. I traded in this. Those are the things somebody can prove. Two trucks of soya beans from Menyani Zulu’s farm can raise K650,000. A normal person will take the money and deposit it in the bank. He does not want to keep the money in his home by digging a trench somewhere and keep it. The only people who dig trenches and bury money are those whose money is not genuine.

A genuine person, with genuinely earned money has to take that money to the bank. So, if we oppose this, what we are saying is that even the genuine people should not deposit their money. If I have earned the money at Kipushi Border, which is under a constituency for a Members of Parliament here and he knows the business at that border, we are saying for me to get two or three trucks of maize to Mwami Border and I earn K700,000 to K800,000, I should not deposit the money because I am paid in dollars.

Mr Chairperson, when we as hon. Members want to contribute to debates such as this one, let us not look at everything with a political eye. If we do that, we will not be building our country. We just have one Zambia and we need to grow our millionaires. A good number of people in this town called Lusaka have had their money stolen. My plea is that hon. Members of Parliament here who are truckers know they are paid in dollars in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Five trucks in the DRC will give you US$30,000 cash, but then, you cannot go and deposit it. Then you are saying if a certain hon. Member earns that money, then that is illicit money. Let us be very frank and honest with ourselves. Even as we adjust this money, let us be mindful of the fact that we cannot adjust again to certain abnormal limits.

Madam Speaker, today, if I had to send six trucks to the DRC, I would have to go to the bank three times to withdraw the money. That does not help us. We need to build ourselves and build this country too. Yes, today, we may call members of the Patriotic Front (PF) thieves, and the next day, the United Party for National Development (UPND) members will be called thieves. Another day, members of a different political party will be called thieves. These are business transactions. Let us not look at everything as politics. Let us look at some of these things as business. People are suffering out there. A good number of people on the Copperbelt today cannot deposit their money. They are keeping it in the houses. Do you know the repercussion? Our kwacha is losing its value. Today, if you go to a number of foreigners in Ndola, you will find that most of them keep money in their homes and not in the banks. The money that the Somalian community, for example, keeps in the houses is more than the dollars that are in the banks. This is our own making.

Madam Speaker, my prayer is that we approach these things with business minds and not always look at things with a political eye. Our beautiful country, Zambia, might not survive with this thing of saying everyone is a thief. Yes, we understand there are thieves out there, but there are also genuine people. For me, I would have been defending that practice of keeping money in homes provided it is accounted for. However, if after doing business, you do not take money to the bank, the you become a suspect. A normal person has to deposit the money. A truck load of groundnuts from the Eastern Province is worth about K600,000 or US$35,000. So, tell me where that person who has genuinely laboured, suffered and exported those groundnuts and is paid cash at the market, and not through a bank transaction, will take the money.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity, on behalf of the people of Luena to contribute to debate on this Motion.

Madam Speaker, this House has had Motions brought before it, which Motions we have described as vexatious,obnoxious and frivolous in the past. This particular Motion is none of those. This Motion is shocking, alarming and completely outrageous

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Speaker, the immediate past debater was giving examples of a farmer selling 600 bags. This Motion has nothing do with assisting small-scale farmers making hundreds of thousands of dollars and needing to deposit money in the banks. This Motion is about creating a channel for illicit financial flaws. How can we, this morning, with the people out there listening, pass a Motion that is seeking to create an opportunity for people who obtained millions of dollars which they cannot account for how they earned the money, to walk into a bank with a trunk full of dollars and go and deposit, it in a country were legal tender is kwacha? Would you have been mining those dollars for you to end up with a million dollar that you need to deposit in the bank?

Madam Speaker, this Motion is seeking to deal with a problem whose origin, both the mover and the seconder and my hon. friend who debated in support have failed to explain. In fact, the seconder even suggested that it is a questionable Motion. This said, he knows that some people will ask where this money is coming from. However, he says, please do not worry about where the money is coming from, let us just allow people to go and deposit this money.

Madam Speaker, which is why I am saying it is shocking. I wish this particular debate was held in camera because I do not know what the people in Kamfinsa are now thinking about my hon. friends. I do not know what the people in Petauke are thinking about my hon. Colleague.

Madam Speaker, –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Luena, do not debate the hon. Members. They have a right to debate. It is a Motion that is on the Floor of the House and they are expressing their view. So, just express your views factually and not attacking each other. Proceed.

Mr Anakoka: Well guided, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, the stability of any country’s financial system is the beginning of a stable economy. This country already has a liberalised foreign exchange system. We allow individuals in this country to walk into the bank and deposit money. It is no wonder this Motion is acknowledging that, but seeking to increase the limits available on a daily basis. In other countries in the region, even if you walk with US$1 million, you will not be able to walk into a supermarket and buy an apple. Everybody you will go to will tell you go to the bank and come with a legal tender for this country. Try that in South Africa. Talking about South Africa, it is the reason we would not want to increase the daily limits. Just yesterday, there was a debate about how hundreds of thousands of dollars arrived in that particular country. Why? It is because their laws are very restrictive on how much money you can bring into the country in terms of foreign exchange. Zambia would not want to open its self to terrorism. We do not want to open ourselves to money laundering. We already have a problem with that. We do not want to open ourselves to even human trafficking. When you create a parallel foreign exchange money flow system, there is only one thing guaranteed, you undermine your economic stability. This Motion is not helpful in any way. Therefore, the people of Luena and us on the right do not support this Motion at all.

Madam Speaker, even the people of Shangombo do not entertain this Motion. If entertained, this Motion would achieve only one thing, and that is to open the flood gates of people who obtained money illegally. In fact, the only benefit that has come out of this Motion is for the law enforcement agencies out there to take note. They must take note. There are people sitting with millions of dollars in this country and are now are seeking an opportunity to clean it through the financial system.

Madam Speaker, there is a lot we could have said, short of simply saying this Motion should not even have come before the Floor of this House because it is scandalous, shocking and scary. Therefore, we do not support this Motion.

Madam, I thank you.

Mr B. Mpundu (Nkana): Madam Speaker, first of all, I am very shocked that an hon. Member of Parliament would stand on the Floor of this House and express sentiments as expressed by the two hon. Members who have spoken against this Motion. The difficulty is that we have a very narrow perspective of how we look at issues in this country.

Madam Speaker, there are countries that celebrate success, but we are a country that celebrates suffering. We are a country that rejoices when people wallow in poverty. That is what beats me.

Madam Speaker, this Motion is about enhancing trade. We are a country that depends on imports more than exportations. All our businesses are about us bringing in things. It is either we are supplying to the mines or elsewhere. To be able to supply spares, if I am to supply the way I supply to the mines, I have to deposit money into my account and transact. What the mover of the Motion is basically stating, let me be candid, is that if our agenda is to support or fight illicit financial transactions, the best avenue to fight illicit financial flows is the bank.

Madam Speaker, through the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC), banks have been given, more or less, what is called a red flag. When you take money into the bank that is suspected, there would be a red flag that would be raised by the bank to security agencies. So, if we have to fight graft and illicit financial movements, we solely rely on banks to signal to us such movements.

Madam Speaker, what the opposers are saying is encouraging people to keep money in their homes, but the mover of the Motion is encouraging people to take money where it can be monitored. The thinking that everybody who has earned money is a criminal is colloquial and ancient. People work hard in this country.

Madam Speaker, Hon. Menyani Zulu has given a very simple illustration of how people earn money even from agricultural activities. If somebody goes with his agricultural products to sell in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), which we know is an instant market that gives us no currency, but the United States Dollar, you have somebody who has a UD$100,000, but cannot go to deposit it. The problem we have with our friends who are opposing is that they think everybody who puts on a good suit is a criminal. Our friends on the right think everybody who is driving a Maseratiis a criminal. They think that everybody who is building is a criminal. No! Not everybody is a criminal. We must celebrate prosperity in this country. A country can only prosper through its citizens. We must encourage people to work hard. That is why I am on record, when somebody brought a very vexatious Motion to this Parliament to subject people to ... what did they call it?

Hon. P F Member: Lifestyle audit.

Mr Mpundu: I said that it is colloquial and ancient. In this age, you want to subject people to come and account for how they bought a television set? We are promoting laziness. Our people are scared today because of such thinking. Let us celebrate success. I cannot stand here and believe that Hon. Anakoka would stand and object such a very progressive move. This is about enhancing trade.

Interruptions

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, as I guided earlier, please, let us not debate ourselves, but debate the Motion and stick to issues. The hon. Member expressed his opinion. You can also express yours without necessarily attacking each other.

You may proceed.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I am very well guided. I just shudder to think that in this age, people can think as low as we are thinking. Now is the time we must embrace reality.

Laughter

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, today, if you were to go to Zimbabwe, they would not ask you or subject you to forensic procedures, if you take whatever currency there. Its worry –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, take notes. Do not debate while seated. Please, let us allow the hon. Member for Nkana to conclude his debate and then you will be recognised.

Hon. Member for Nkana, please proceed.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, perhaps, let me go back to kindergarten. The mover of the Motion is simply saying we have come to a point, as a country, we must promote trade and uplift the wellbeing of our people. We will not build our people if we do not encourage them to engage in trade. In trade, unfortunately, the medium of exchange is not only the United States Dollar. Even these hon. Members of Parliament, when buying their vehicles were quoted in the United States Dollar, not only in Kwacha, I said. The United States Dollar is also a recognised medium of trade in Zambia. If somebody argues, then he or she is being economical with the truth. The mover of the Motion is saying let us encourage Zambia to prosper through its citizens. Zambia will not prosper if we continue to gag its people from engaging in trade. The mover of the Motion is saying the limit of US$20,000 for one to deposit when one has earned that money is not correct.

Mr Amutike: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Amutike: I rise in pursuant to Standing Order 65.

Madam Speaker, the speaker on the Floor has just stated that lifestyle audits are ancient, but they are an auditing tool that many auditing companies are using to ascertain the legitimacy of employees and earnings. Is the hon. Member, therefore, in order to share ignorance in this House?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mongu Central, can you, please, withdraw the use of the word ‘ignorance’. You cannot call your fellow hon. Member ignorant. Use another word to describe what you want to say.

Mr Amutike: I withdraw the word, but the question still stands. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead himself and the nation?

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Nkana is just expressing his opinion. If he believes that lifestyle audit is ancient, that is his opinion. You cannot argue with him.

Mr B. Mpundu: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for helping me. I know the hon. Member who rose on a point of order was in South Africa for a very long time.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nkana!

Do not debate. Once there is a ruling on a point of order, you proceed. Do not debate a ruling.

Mr B, Mpundu: Madam Speaker, I remember when I was very young, there used to be what was called the Special Investigations Team on Economy and Trade(SITET). That is what was referred to as a lifestyle audit, but let me close that chapter.

Madam Speaker, let me wind up by saying in very simple terms from kindergarten, perhaps, so that people can understand. The mover of the Motion is simply saying it is time for us to begin to celebrate success. Success will not come if we gag people from engaging in commerce and trade. For us to be able to engage in trade, we must have the ability and freedom to go to banks with huge sums of money.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa said that if we are interested in understanding where that money is coming from, there are other applicable laws that can be used to monitor where money is coming from. This issue is about citizens walking to banks, after having worked so hard by taking goods to the border and earned huge sums of United States Dollars,genuinely, and deposit.

There was a day when the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central talked about a scenario here where a businessman was robbed right at the bank. Is that a scenario we would want to be seeing in the country? People are wallowing in poverty today and resorting to criminal activities. You do not want your people, Madam Speaker, to be attacked for being in possession of money. That money must be taken to the bank.

Madam Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’stime expired.

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion that was moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Petauke Central and seconded by the hon. Member for Kamfinsa.

Madam Speaker, at the outset, I would like to set the record straight that I do not support such a frivolous Motion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I think the mover of the Motion was motivated by street business, which is not regulated anyhow, but a financial system is regulated, and we need to understand the parameters within which we need to operate in a financial system.

Madam Speaker, any financial system in any country is highly regulated, and at the centre of the regulation of a financial system is the central bank. In our case, it is the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), which sets out the rules that must be complied with by anybody.

Mr E. J. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let me just give guidance. Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you are the mover of the Motion. Just take down the notes of whatever points you want to raise. You will be given an opportunity to respond. So, there is no need for you to raise a point of order midstream. Just listen to the debate and then you will respond accordingly.

May the hon. Member for Zambezi East proceed.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, before I was disturbed, I was just about to say that at the centre of regulating any financial system is the central bank. In the case of Zambia, the BoZ regulates our financial system and is, of course, assisted by the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC). When laws are flouted, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) comes in and we have the Zambia Police Service, the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and also the Zambia Security Intelligence Services. All these play a part in making sure that the rules that have been set in a financial system are followed. All that is done in order to avoid several things such as distortions in a financial system which affect our economic indicators. Therefore, we are subscribers to what are known as the basel rules. I am not sure if the mover of the Motion even understands what the basel rules are.

Laughter

Mr E. J. Banda: Madam Speaker, it is too much.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, there is an international committee called the Basel Committee which –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Zambezi East, please, concentrate on your debate. Do not attack the mover of the Motion. Please, let us maintain harmony in the House. Proceed, but no personal attacks on the mover.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I just want to explain a little more on the basel rules. The Basel Committee issued guidelines which help regulate central banks and supervise the players in a financial system, who are financial intermediaries like the banks. It emanates from these rules, which are international, that the central bank regulates and puts up rules that we have to follow. One might be wondering where these restrictions come from. It is from that background. So, that knowledge is very important. Once one appreciates it, one will know why these things exist because part of the use of the basel rules is to cartel money laundering, terrorism financing and the like. So, we need to understand that background before we can come up with wild declarations.

Madam Speaker, coming to the Basel Framework, which is a full set of standards of the Basel Committee on banking supervision and the primary global standard setter for prudential regulation of banks, the central bank sets the limits which we have here in Zambia. You ask me what the motivation for setting those rules is, especially on daily cash deposits. Of course, daily cash deposits are one quick form of laundering money which is illicitly obtained.

Madam Speaker, I was not really shocked but very surprised, indeed, to see a Motion being floated on the Floor of this House to encourage money laundering. This is literally washing the cash so that it goes into the financial system, but rules have been put in place so that we curtail such kinds of moves, of course, with parameters set. In any case, anybody involved in genuine business would use bank accounts. There is no law that restricts you from transferring colossal sums of money in foreign currency from one account to the other. Why not use those avenues to transact if you have really done genuine business in United States (US) Dollars?

Madam Speaker, let me give an example. I sold a vehicle the other day and I needed to receive about US$100,000, and it was transferred to my account. I simply produced the invoice and the person paid me the US$100,000 using my individual account, not even a business account.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: I had an explanation for it because there is something I was selling and an invoice existed. So, such transactions can happen. I can actually receive US$200,000 or US$1 million in my account as long as I am able to show what I was selling for that payment. So, where is the problem then? Here it is. Somebody is suggesting that the mechanism which has been put in place, which makes it very easy for the FIC to monitor how transactions are moving, should be curtailed so that we can assist those keeping stacks of money in their homes to launder it through the bank. That shall not happen. That cannot be allowed because it is against the very basel rules which we ascribe to, in making sure that money laundering internationally is curtailed. So, these rules are important. They exist, and there are systems. You need to take stock of where we are coming from.

Madam Speaker, in any case, here in this country, there is relaxation. I heard the previous debater, Hon. Anakoka, mention that foreign exchange in this country is after all liberalised. There are no restrictions. You can walk in a bank and buy US Dollars. You can transfer US Dollars from one account to another in payment, but loosening it up to assist you wash that money which you earned illicitly will not happen. Not in this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: We are here to control things. In any case, we are moving in close. So, for those of you who are keeping stacks of money in your homes, it is time to own up.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Zambezi East!

Please, do not attack any hon. Member in this House. Just debate based on the facts and on the Motion instead of pointing fingers at any particular person.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, I always treasure your guidance.

Madam Speaker, I am trying to comprehend the motivation of trying to take cash to the bank so that it is increased and people start depositing over and above the limits that are set. If we give an answer to what the motivation is – I have an answer myself. The motivation is to clean the illicit money that the Patriotic Front (PF) and others earned, which we shall not allow. That is why, we on this side, do not support this Motion because we have a decent Government, and we will follow international rules so that we make sure that this country is governed by the rule of law.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you, and I thank Hon. Banda for the Motion that has been laid on the Floor which, unfortunately, we have to reject.

Madam Speaker, transactions are always taking place in an economy, in other words, somebody is selling and somebody is buying.

Madam Speaker, in those transactions, payments take place and there are different types. In some payments, it is cashand in some, it is transfer across banks. As Hon. Kambita said, the trend in the modern world is to minimise cash transactions in favour of transactions through transfers. That is the modern trend and there are good reasons for that which I am going to address.

Madam Speaker, in this country, we are encouraging transactions via the banks because, then, we have an opportunity to monitor and distinguish genuine from illicit transactions. Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA)can see who is making money and therefore should pay tax. Other investigative agencies can also monitor. This is why we encourage transfers across the banks. However, I think the Bank of Zambia is practical. It knows that in certainplaces, there is prevalence of cash transactions. For example, on the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) side. Therefore, for that reason, in spite of the measures to discourage cash transactions, they have made provisions for cash transactions.

Madam Speaker, as it stands right now,as an individual, you are allowed to deposit up to US$20,000 per day. A company is allowed to deposit up US$100,000 per day. What Hon. Banda is saying is that US$20,000 and US$100,000 is not enough. We are saying that this is more than adequate. The hon. Colleagues there have been saying the Government is stiffening trade, discouraging transaction and fighting people who are working hard. Among us individuals, who is able to generate US$20,000 per day? How many of us, as individuals,are able to generate US$20,000 per day?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order! Can we listen to the debate.

Dr Musokotwane:We are told thatthose people are not able to transfer that US$20,000 through the banking system but through cash. How many companies, today, can easily earn UD$100,000 in cash? I am not talking about total revenue. Total revenue may be higher but the question is:How many can earn more than US$100,000 per day in cash? How many of them are there? The answer is that very few, if any. I was doing some calculations here with my agricultural expert, Hon. Mtolo to say, if you are going to export groundnuts or if there were farmers from the Eastern Province who were delivering truckloads of groundnuts worth US$100,000 and beyond, we would not be talking about poverty in this country. It would mean that every farmer in Zambia would be a rich farmer.

Madam Speaker, in my opinion, the limits that have been set by the Bank of Zambia are adequate. In fact, the limits were not just set in abstract terms because consultations were made with the business community. They looked at the data of those who are genuinely exporting into the DRC. For example, how much a major exporter is generating per day. This is how the limits were set, but the hon. Colleagues are now saying it is too little. So, the question is: Is it the money that you are saying is in the houses? Are you sure the money is from groundnuts, beans and finkubala? The answer is that the money is coming from elsewhere.

Madam Speaker, somebody said we need to have foreign currency so that we can import. We need to deposit foreign currency so that we deport. I thought, in this country, there is total freedom. If you want to import anything, you go to the bank and ask your bank to transfer so much even if it is kwacha. Even on a kwacha account if you want import stuff, you tell your bank that out of my kwacha account convert so much into US$30,000 because I am importing an engine or something. There is no problem.

So, hon. Colleagues, money that is in the houses is not there because people have been exporting groundnuts or finkubala or fish, but it is there from other sources. This is why we are saying that the current arrangements are more than adequate for a genuine exporter to deposit the money in the bank. If you are an individual, it is US$20,000 per day. We are not saying per month, but per day. If during the export of groundnuts, you earned US$100,000, you can deposit UU$20,000 per day, So, where is the problem.

Madam Speaker, the answer to this is that there are adequate provisions for genuine business people to deposit their cash generations. Those who are complaining are obviously complaining because there are other reasons.

Madam Speaker, this Motion, therefore, has to be rejected because it is not in the interest of Zambia. Remember, also, that we are members of the global fight against terrorism and money laundering and are being monitored. Zambia, like all other countries, is being monitored to see whether we are complying with that. So, if you bring something like this and then others say Zambia is abetting money laundering and financing of terrorism, you are going to tarnish the image of the country. So, those who have problems should find other ways of sorting out their problems.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, firstly, I thank the people who have debated this non-controversial Motion. It is non-controversial unless, there are no businessmen where some hon. Members come from or where they are seated, they have never bought a vehicle using dollars.

Madam Speaker, let me first be clear to some people not in their right frame of mind, …

Hon. Members: Ah!

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: … who want to shoot the Motion like the Doctor.

Madam, when you go to solwezitoday, and Kipushi in particular, you will find that there are many Congolese nationals. The people in Zambezi East and Solwezi East are watching. When you go to Chavuma, you will find that there are many Angolans who come with dollars to buy beans, groundnuts and maize from our Zambian farmers. If those people want to buy beans from our farmers, they come with dollars because they do not do bank transfers. In addition, they cannot trust each other because it is a black market. It is a give and take. So, if someone from Angola or the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) comes and buys the whole truck loaded with bags of beans and I think one bag costs US$1,000. Now, a 30 tonne truck loaded with …

Hon. Members: Ah!

Mr J. E. Banda: Do not argue with me. Let me debate.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, if we multiply US$1,000 by 600 bags in a 30 tonne truck will give you a lot of money. This is US$600,000. Is it safe to move with US600,000? I am sure the people of Zambezi are seeing what kind of a leader they have because they can attack such people and then, he will be in the forefront saying that my people attacked me.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, can we have some order in the House. Hon. Member for Petauke Central, please, wind up debate.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

Madam Speaker, as we are talking, it is like the poor people in our country are not represented.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Why do I say so? I am winding up debate.

Mr Speaker: Wind up debate, hon. Member.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Kanyama is an example. When you go to Soweto right now, you will find trucks loaded with apples which are being sold. There are also oranges. There are some Congolese who have just come and are in Soweto right now where they are buying these fruits. I have had firsthand experience because my mother used to sell oranges from South Africa at Soweto Market. Now, the Congolese come with cash, but they do not have bank accounts. For one Congolese to order one truckload, he she will probably spend maybe, more than US$60,000.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Now, how can someone go into –

Interruptions

Mr J. E. Banda: Go to Soweto. it is happening, hon. Member for Kanyama.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, let us be factual as we debate. Otherwise, everybody else will go the orange way and think they will get US$60,000.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Order!

Let us be factual. Please, proceed.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance, but I need your protection from these hon. Members. I am sure they do not understand and they also do not read. I do not know what degrees and qualifications they have for them to fail to read Standing Order 57(1). It is very clear and it says:

“A member may only speak when called upon by the presiding officer.”

However, these hon. Members are just opening their mouths like wawawawawawa, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Mr J. E. Banda: Are they educated or what?

Mr B. Mpundu: Ulimwaumeiwe! Naupya!

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, when you take a truck load of groundnuts to Kasumbalesa, you are not going to sell using a bank account. How much is a truck load of groundnuts?

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, the hon. Member for Mongu was also not in order to bring his ignorance into this.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr J. E. Banda: In addition, the hon. Member for Zambezi East also brought his dullness here where we represent people, but he –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you are out of order.

The hon. Member’stime expired.

Question that this House urges the Government to increase foreign currency daily deposit limits in commercial banks put and negatived.

_______

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE SECURITIES (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2˗ (Amendment of section 2)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 3:

in lines 6 to 17 by the deletion of paragraph (a);
in line 18 by the deletion of the letter (b) before the word “insertion”; and
in lines 20 to 23 by the deletion of the definition “debt fund’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2˗ (Amendment of section 2)

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, I beg to withdraw the amendment as the amendment is similar to the one moved by the hon. Minister.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, accordingly withdrawn.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

CLAUSE 3 – (Amendment of section 9)

Dr Musokotwane:Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, on page 5, in line 13, by the insertion of the words “in accordance with the vetting criteria in guidelines issued by the Commission,” after the word “shareholder”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, on page 5:

in lines 11 to 17 by the deletion of paragraph (a); and
in line 18 by the deletion of the letter (b) before the word “by”.

Madam Chairperson, I sincerely thank you for giving me an opportunity to make a submission on this proposed amendment. My proposal is for the House to consider deleting paragraph (a), which I now wish to read from the Bill:

“in subsection 2, by the insertion of the following new paragraph immediately after paragraph (u):

(v) vet a substantial shareholder, including the substantial shareholder’s source of funds, and the beneficial owner of a company whose securities are

registered, or which is authorised or licensed under this Act.; and”

Madam Chairperson, if this provision goes through as it is, it is going to give power to the Securities Exchange Commission (SEC) to vet substantial shareholders, including those who own companies. By that, we are saying substantial shareholders in Professional Insurance and substantial shareholders in Madison Insurance will be vetted for their sources of income which they used to purchase those shares.

Now, we know that in our country, where illicit financial flows are rampant is in the mining sector. We know that the mining sector accounts for billions of Kwacha in illicit financial flows. Now, in this sector, where shares and other instruments are traded on various platforms, including the Lusaka Stock Exchange (LUSE), I think it is unfair for us to give power to SEC to go backwards and vet those individuals who have invested in Swan Insurance, the former Diamond Insurance, for example. Those who have invested in companies like ah – So, it is very important that we ensure that those individuals are protected the same way we have protected those who are investing in mining undertakings.

Madam Chairperson, I call upon my hon. Colleagues to compare the treatment of sectors. We need to compare how we are enabling sectors and sector players to participate in what the United Party for National Development (UPND) is calling economic transformation. It is very important to be consistent and fair. So, my proposal to the House is that we consider amending this provision by deleting it completely from the Bill.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much. We have looked at the proposal by Hon. Kafwaya, and it is not acceptable. The reason is this: You recall that the whole essence of amending this Bill is to align it with the fight against money laundering and the financing of terrorism. That is the most fundamental reason this Bill came for amendment.

Madam, that being the case, to prevent transactions taking place in the securities market from being conduits of money laundering, it became necessary for us to say that even those who are shareholders of this, going forward, must be vetted. This provision also aligns with other segments of the financial sector.Whether you are talking of pension funds or the banking sector, it is the same provision or principle, which is that we should not allow money launderers to wash their money through transactions in the securities market or in the banking and financial sector.

Madam Chairperson, that being the case, when he says “delete this,” it defeats the whole purpose of having brought this Bill to Parliament. This is why we are rejecting that proposal.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Question that Clause 3 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 3ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (Repeal of Sections 11 and 12 Amendment of Section 19)

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 5, in lines 39 to 42 by the deletion of Clause 5.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (Amendment of Section 19)

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I beg to withdraw the amendment as it is similar with that of the hon. Minister.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, accordingly withdrawn.

CLAUSE 6 – (Insertion of new Part IIA)

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6:

on page 6

in line6

by the insertion of the words “by notice” after the word “may,”; and

in lines 22 to 27

by the deletion of paragraphs (a) and (b) and the substitution therefor of the following:

the capital markets operator fails or refuses, without reasonable excuse, to comply with an order or directive of the Commission under this Act;
the capital markets operator obstructs, or refuses, without reasonable excuse, to permit an inspection or review in accordance with this Act; or;

(b) on page 8

in lines 1 to 5

by the deletion of subclause (5) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(5) The Commission or a manager appointed to run the affairs of a capital marketsoperator shall, within ninety days of taking possession of a capital markets operator, prepare a statement of affairs showing the financial position of the capital markets operator.;

after line 11

by the insertion of the following new subclause after sub-clause (6):

(7) The qualification and duties of a manager appointed under this section shall be as specified in guidelines issued by the Commission; and

in lines 31 to 34

by the deletion of sub-clause (4) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(4) The Commissiion may, in writing, issue a directive to a capital markets operator for the purposes of any requirement in this section that assets of a specified class or description shall, or shall not, be taken into account; and

(i) in line 9

by the deletion of the word “shall” and the substitution therefor of the word “may”; and

after line 14

by the insertion of the following new clause:

Exemption of 19J. (1) This part shall not apply to a person whose

person whose securitiesare registered with the Commission.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 6 as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6 – (Insertion of new Part IIA)

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6,

on page 6
1. in lines 6 to 7

by the deletion of the words “prohibit a capital markets operator” after the word “writing” and the substitution therefor of the words “issue industry-wide directives to prohibit capital market operators”;

in lines 25 to 27

by the deletion of paragraph (b) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(b) the capital markets operator, without reasonable cause or justifiable reason, obstructs or refuses to permit an inspection or review in accordance with this Act;

iii. in line 28

by the insertion of the word “following” before the word “an”;

iv. in line 29

by the insertion of the words “and after the market operator has been accorded an opportunity to be heard” after the word “operator”;

(b) On page 7

(i) in line 1

by the deletion of subparagraph (iv);

(ii) in line 2

by the renumbering of subparagraph (v) as subparagraph (iv);

in lines 9 to 12

by the deletion of paragraphs (c) and (d);

(iv) in lines 13 to 24

by the deletion of subsections (3), (4) and (5).

(i) in lines 1 to 11

by the deletion of subsections (5) and (6);

(ii) in lines 12 to 34

bythe deletion of section 19C;

(d) on page 9

(i) in line 10

by the deletion of the word “thirty” and the substitution therefor of the word “ninety”;

(ii) in lines 12 to 14

by the deletion of paragraph (b); and

by the renumbering of paragraph (c) as (b);
in lines 19 to 34

by the deletion of subsections (2), (3) and (4) (a);

(e) on page 10, in lines 1 to 6

(i) by the deletion of subsections 4 (b), 4 (c); and

(ii) by the renumbering of subsection (5) as subsection (2).

(f) on page 11

(i) in lines 1 to 7

by the deletion of section 19 (H); and

(ii) in lines 13 and 14

by the deletion of subsection (3) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(3) Despite subsection (2), the Tribunal may stay the Commission’s decision; and

(g) by the renumbering of sections 19D, 19E, 19F, 19G and 19I as sections 19C, 19D, 19E, 19F

Madam Chairperson, thank you so much.

Madam Chairperson,the amendment I am proposing to the House is by deletion of the words “prohibit a capital market operator” after the word writing and the substitution therefor of the words “issue industrywide directives to prohibit capital market operators”.

Madam Chairperson, when SEC is given power to issue arbitrary directives to capital market operators, the industry will not be fairly treated by SEC. It is my considered view that SEC should issue industrywide directives. If they want to prohibit a particular transaction type, that transaction type should be prohibited for all players as opposed to saying for you, because this company belongs to a certain person, we prohibit you from trading in this particular industry or for you, because your name came from this or that or because you are a foreigner or because you are an indigenous Zambian, we prohibit you from trading in this and that. That would be unfair.It will lead to arbitrary actions and the industry will become unattractive for investors, and thereby inhibit the inflow of investments in as far as this particular sector is concerned.

Madam Chairperson, so, I hope my hon.Colleagues can support that we remove that power for SEC to make directives to individual investors or individual companies, so that it is only allowed to issue industrywide directives. If SEC thinks that a particular instrument should not be traded at a particular time, all of the players should be affected as opposed to pin pointing that Madison Group of Companies cannot do that.

Madam Chairperson, I say so because right now, thereis information in the public, which is suggesting that SEC has acted in bad faith to audit Madison Group of Companies in order to obliterate the company. That information is in public domain; I have the newspaper and the letter. So, if SEC will be allowed to take such actions, we have serious problems. Asa matter of fact, I hope the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government will not object to this. However, if it does and this goes through, very soon you will hear that Madison Group of Companies have been wiped out by SECbecause part of the hidden objective in some provisions is to obliterate companies such as Madison Financial Services.

Madam Chairperson –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, for the comfort of my hon. Colleagues, let me read what is in public domain, and I will lay the document on the Table. It states as follows:

“SEC hired forensic auditor resigns, cites witch hunt against Madison Group of Companies.”

Madam Chairperson, there is a letter from the auditor who resigned, who told SEC that they cannot continue with the audit because SEC wants the auditor to put conclusions which are predetermined in the audit, and the letter is –

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Kafwaya!

I do not think you can use something from the media. Is it possible for you to use the copy?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I have a print out. I am just reading from the phone because of my eyes. You can see I am wearing spectacles.

The Chairperson: Was the document approved by the Speaker?

Hon. Members, I think let us not just try to argue. We are trying to put things straight; the way things are supposed to be done.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, this is in public domain and the auditor who resigned is out there. The letter which the auditor wrote is a public document now, and it was written to SEC. I am being advised to use it; it is a notorious fact. SEC has not paid 45 per cent of the fee because the auditor did not include what SEC wanted to be included in the audit report. The auditor said this is witch hunt, and because it is unethical, he said he cannot continue. This letter has gone to the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), the Pensions and Insurance Authority (PIA) and SEC. Hence, I also have access to it. However, for the hon. Minister’s concern, these are the provisions which will now empower SEC to do what it is trying to do to Madison Group of Companies with impurity because we would have given it unnecessary power.

Hon. Minister, the House will be judged harshly by posterity …

Ms Mulenga: Yes!

Mr Kafwaya: … if we go ahead with such provisions because they cannot give unfettered powers to Securities Exchange Commission (SEC) when we know, in fact –

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member. Before you raise that point of order, I have some guidance to make.

Hon Members, I had mentioned in the beginning on the way we are supposed to use the tabling of private Members’ documents. Can we go to Standing Orders No. 140. It clearly says:

“Tabling of Private Document by backbencher

(1)A backbencher who wishes to table a document shall seek prior permission of the Speaker.

(2)In seeking permission under paragraph (1), the backbencher shall submit a copy of such document to the Speaker at least twelve hours in advance to enable the Speaker examine it.

(3)A member who has prior permission to table a document under paragraph (2) shall table it immediately after he or she has finished debating.”

So, it is something which is in the Standing Orders which we have to follow. Is it very clear. It is not about just stopping the hon. Member debating.

So, with that guidance hon. Member, I think, you can use another avenue of debating instead of relying on what you were trying to read from the cell phone.

I thank you.

Mr Jamba, is that in line with your point of order?

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, I must declare interest that I was part of the Committee which looked into the Securities (Amendment) Bill, 2022. When we were looking into this issue, we were not looking at a company like Madison Insurance. This law is not meant for Madison Insurance. Therefore, the battles which they are fighting in the courts –

Interruptions

Mr Kapyanga: What is your point of order?

Mr Jamba: My point of order is whether the hon. Member in order to be discussing Madison Insurance into the preparation of law in this House and quoting that they were actually in the courts of law?

Hon. PF Members: Which Standing Order has been breached?

Mr Jamba: Standing Order No.65, which is on the relevance of the topic.

Interruptions

Mr Jamba: Let me finish, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member. We have heard you but what would be useful for you, because we were not all in the Committee is for you to come and debate the subject ...

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: … so that we can have information rather than bringing it in a point of order.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: So, I will allow you hon. Member to debate. We have a lot of time, actually.

Ms Mulenga: Long live Chair!

Ema Chair aya!

The Chairperson: Mr Kafwaya, you have heard from the Standing Orders, so if you can please, clearly put your debate in another form.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I will not lay this document on the Table of the House. I will only make reference to it. As everyone is aware, we are informed by what goes on in our political, social and economic environment.

Madam Chairperson, the other amendment which I am trying to move on the same clause which I am lobbying my hon. Colleagues to support is in line 25 to 27 by deleting the paragraph (b) and substitution therefor of the following:

“(b) the capital market operator, without reasonable cause or justified reason, obstructs or refuses to permit an inspection or review in accordance with this Act;”

Madam Chairperson, for the benefit of my colleagues, the provision we are trying to replace reads:

“The capital markets operator obstructs, or refuses to permit an inspection or review in to accordance this Act.”

The danger here, Madam Chairperson, is that an inspector can come to your office when you are closing and because they have predetermined outcomes of the investigations, they go and say you denied them entry. So, there has to be a provision to say that unless you deny them entry without a justifiable reason. Somebody can come on a Sunday or on a Sabbath when you are at church and say they came to your premises but you refused to let them in. So, when there is justifiable reason why the SEC cannot enter the premises, that should be allowed. So, it is dangerous to just put it as it is, particularly, for a SEC whose conduct you may have seen from what is happening in the public domain.

Madam Chairperson, I am lobbying my hon. Colleagues and I calling upon the conscience of the people in the House because I am looking at the House in five years’ time. How are the people of Zambia going to look at us to have passed such a provision?

Ms Mulenga: Can you imagine.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I submit.

The Chairperson: Mr Anakoka, I keep seeing the name coming on and disappearing.

Mr Anakoka: It has come on now.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Chairperson, let me just respond to the two items being proposed by my hon. Colleague. The first one –

Hon. PF Members: Are you debating or responding?

Mr Anakoka: I am debating, yes. Let me debate on the proposed amendments.

Mr Kambita: English!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members. He wants to debate on the amendments that have been brought forward by Mr Kafwaya.

Mr Anakoka: In my debate, Madam Chairperson, I will be responding to the proposer.

Hon. PF Members: How?

Mr Anakoka: Madam Chairperson, the suggestion that a market regulator such as the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) should be restricted to issuing industry-wide directives but should have no power to issue a directive to a capital market operator cannot stand. The reason you need a regulator is so that you can nip any mischief in the bud. There are instances, those who are familiar with capital market operations, where a particular little loophole might exist in the regulations and one industry or market operator takes advantage and it threatens the sustainability of the capital market. The security market regulator should be able to regulate and issue directives accordingly to the specific operator. So, it is necessary that SEC should have the right to go to a specific market operator. The less said on the examples being given about Madison Insurance, the better because it is completely unrelated and, in fact, probably unprocedural to think that a particular law should be made because a particular instance concerning a particular company is proceeding in a manner that one or two individuals are not happy with. Certainly, we cannot make laws like that.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue that has been suggested of preventing an inspector from entering premises. In capital market operations, time is of the essence. If something is amiss or some mischief is being perpetrated, you cannot put talking about it on hold because it is a Friday and wait for Monday. The world does not go to sleep. The world operates on a second-by-second basis. Capital markets by their nature, are linked all over the world. So, you cannot say we have come across this information on a Friday, but we need to wait for Monday at 0900 hours because tomorrow it is a sabbath and people are going to church and then there are others who are going on Sunday, so let us send them a notice on Monday. It just would not work. I know that when it comes to capital markets, people think that since there is no murder being committed, so, why not wait a few days. This can be more serious than murder. An economy’s sustainability can be threatened. People will be aware of what happened as a result of sub-prime market lending that occasioned and precipitated the economic crisis around 2008. It was all because of the practices of just a few banks which had this ripple effect that crossed oceans and affected various continents. Africa and Zambia, we were not exempted from that.

So, Madam Chairperson, I just thought I should shed a bit of light on the two provisions that it is cardinal that they stay exactly the way they are.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, before I go the substance, I must indicate that I am very troubled about the fact that as we discuss law, we are now bringing in the debates specific companies. As far as I can recall, this is the first time I have been in this House that the particular entity is being linked to a proposal for law. The risk of this is that this House maybe be accused as being hired by entities outside the House to come and argue for them the direction which the law must take. I think this is extremely unfortunate and should never happen in this House.

Madam Chairperson, I want to thank Hon. Anakoka for clarifying this issue. This Clause simply says that if any operator commits a transgression, then the commission must have supervisory powers on the transgrator. The supervisory authority, in which case we are talking about the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), must have powers over the transgressor. Those powers include the possibility of making restrictions on what the operator can do and cannot do.

Madam Chairperson, this provision is standard across the financial spectrum. If you look at the Banking and Financial Services Act, you will see that there is a provision like that. It says that if this bank has transgressed, the Bank of Zambia would have the unfettered power to specifically say, ‘you the transgressor, do not do this or that or you must do this or that.’ How then can you say because the transgressor has transgressed, then the supervisory action that you planning on the transgressor must now be applied to all the other operators? Does that make sense? Supervisory actions are those targeted at the transgressors and then you do not generalise to say everyone now must Act like that. No, it cannot be like that. This is why we are rejecting this proposal and we maintain the golden standards in the financial sector regulation.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. PF Memberscalled for a division.

Question that Clause 6 be amended put and the House voted.

AYES (33)

Mr Allen Banda

Mr Banda Ackleo

Mr Chabinga

Mr Chala

Mr Chibombwe

Mr C. Chibuye Mr

MsChisenga

Mr E. Daka

Mr Fube

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalimi

Mr C. Kang’ombe

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo Mr

Rev Katuta Mr M. Lungu

Mr Mabumba

Mr C. Mpundu

Mr Mtayachalo

Ms K. Mulenga

Mr Mundubile

Mr Mushanga

Mr Elias Musonda

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwaza

Mr Mwila

MsNyemba

Mr Phiri Peter

Mr Simumba

Mr M. Tembo

Mr Twasa Mr

NOES (56)

Mr Amutike

Mr Anakoka

Mr Emmanuel Banda

Mr Chaatila

Mr J. Chibuye

Mr Chikote

Mr Chinkuli

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Hlazo

Mr Jamba

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kapala

Ms Kasanda

Mr Katakwe

Mr Lihefu

Mr Lufuma

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Mr Mandandi

Mr Mapani

Mrs Masebo

Mr Matambo

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Mbao

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mposha

Mr Mubanga

Mr Mubika

Mr Muchima

Mr Mulaliki

Mr Charles Mulenga

Mr Mulunda

Mr Mulusa

MsMulyata

Mr Munsanje

Dr Musokotwane

Mrs D. Mwamba

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nzovu

Mr Peter S. Phiri Mr

MsSefulo

Mr Siachisumo

Mr Sikumba

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simutowe

Mr Simuzingili

Mr Sing’ombe

Brig Gen Sitwala

Mr Tayengwa

ABSTENTIONS (01)

Mr Zulu Menyani

Questionthat Clause 6 be amended put andnegatived

Clauses 7, 8 and 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 10 (Insertion of sections 46A and 46B)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments in Clause 10, on page 12:

after line 14, by the insertion of the following new subclause after subclause (2):

This section shall not apply to a person licensed as a representative under section 34.; and

after line 26, by the insertion of the following new subclause after subclause (2):

(3) This section shall not apply to a person licensed as a representative under section 34.

After clause 13, on page 13, after line 14, by the insertion of the following new clause after clause 13:

Amendment of section 84 13. Section 84 of the principal Act is amended by the deletion of subsection (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(1) The Commission may prescribe codes of ethics and corporate governance for capital markets operators.

After Clause 18, on page 14, after line 31, by the insertion of the following new Clause after Clause 18:

Repeal and replacement

of section 195 19. The principal Act is amended by the repeal of section 195 and the substitution therefor of the following:

Appeals to

Court of Appeal 195. (1) A party to the proceedings before the Tribunal may, if dissatisfied with an order or a decision of the Tribunal, appeal to the Court of Appeal against that order or decision.

(2) A party that intends to appeal against an order or decision of the Tribunal in accordance with subsection (1) shall-

(a) apply to the Tribunal for leave to appeal if the leave to appeal against the order or decision is not granted in the order or decision; or

(b) apply to a judge of the Court of Appeal for leave to appeal if the Tribunal refuses to grant the leave under paragraph (a).

Amendment agreedto. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 10 (Insertion of sections 46A and 46B)

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments in Clause 10, on page 12:

in lines 6 to 10, by the deletion of subclause (1);

in lines 11 to 14, by the deletion of subclause (2) and the substitution therefor of the following:

Appointment of auditor by licensed person

Act No. 13 of 2008

An Auditor shall audit the annual financial statements of a licensed person in accordance with the provisions of the Accountants Act, 2008;

in line 11, by the deletion of the number (2) before the word “An”;

in lines 15 to 19, by the deletion of subsection(1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

Report by capital market operator on failure to provide audited results

A capital markets operator shall provide a report to the Commission, on its failure to provide audited results in a prescribed manner and form within four months of the end of a financial year, stating the reasons for the delay; and

in line 20, by the deletion of the number (2) before the word “A”;

in lines 21 to 22,

(i) by the deletion of the words “or an auditor who fails to report a delay by a licensed person in submitting audited results”;

(ii) in line 24, by the deletion of the words “one hundred thousand” and the substitution therefor of the words “fifty thousand”; and

(iii) in line 25, by the deletion of the words “ten thousand” and substitution therefor of the words “five thousand”.

Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing me to debate this amendment in persuasion of my hon. Colleagues.

Madam Chairperson, I cited Professional Insurance Corporation (PIC) and Swan Insurance, formerly known as Diamond Insurance. I also cited current trends, which are happening at Madison Financial Services Limited (MFSL). These are the stakeholders for whom I act, as an hon. Member of Parliament. When these people and all the others are being troubled by Government agencies such as the Securities Exchange Commission (SEC), it is my responsibility to come on the Floor of the House and highlight the suffering of the Zambians who have invested in these undertakings.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I want to appreciate the auditor who resigned from undertaking a dubious audit on behalf of SEC. That demonstrates that we still have auditors who have ethics. I stand with him or her. I also stand with those that SEC wants to victimise.

Madam Chairperson, my proposal for amending Clause 10 is as follows:

By the deletion of subclause (1), and it reads as follows:

“(1) Despite the Accountants Act, 2008, a licensed person shall appoint an auditor who is a member of the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants, and the auditor shall not provide auditing services to the licensed person unless the auditor meets the minimum criteria specified by the Commission.”

Madam Chairperson, since when, in this country, did we take away the authority from the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA) to prescribe criteria for auditing? When I look across on your right, I know one qualified accountant. I also know three accountants on this side of the Floor who are qualified.

Mrs Sefulointerjected.

Mr Kafwaya: Well, qualifications can vary. I am talking about qualified accountants.

Madam Chairperson, qualified accountants would tell you that Grant Thornton Partners must be ZICA members. So, if an operator appoints Grant Thornton, SEC should go and say do not use it as it does not qualify because of the flowing, instead, go and use KPMG? Then what conflict is being created between SEC and ZICA, which manages accountants and their professional conduct of auditing?

Madam Chairperson, an auditor was told to include certain things in his audit report. Is that the criteria you want to be adding? That is why I am saying ZICA should be left sacrosanct when it comes to the accounting and auditing standards of our nation so that no one anywhere else should interfere with auditing and accounting standards.

Madam, we will be laughed at, as a nation. Posterity will laugh at us. So, I stand here lobbying my hon. Colleagues on your left and right to ensure that we delete this provision from this Bill because it is not very well intended.

Tomorrow, the PIA will say for you to audit theNational Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), you have to come to us we tell you what qualifications an auditor must have. Tomorrow, another person in the health sector will say, you cannot audit a health undertaking, you have to come to us we tell you what sort of auditor you must have. That is anarchy, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson, the other amendment I am lobbying my colleagues to consider is as follows:

“the deletion of subclause (2) and the substitution therefor of the following: ‘(2) An auditor shall audit the annual financial statements of a licensed person in accordance with the provisions of the Accountants Act, 2008;”

Here is what it reads in the Bill so that my hon. Colleagues can be clear. The auditor shall audit the annual financial statements of a licenced person in accordance with the prescribed standards specified in the Accountants Act, 2008, and as provided under this Act. Now, “as provided under this Act” will include the conditions set by SEC. If SEC will be telling the auditor to add certain things to its findings, as it did to that auditor who resigned, it becomes a problem. So, let auditors just audit in line with the Accountants Act, and that is it. What is the problem with that? You cannot have a situation in which auditors begin to report to SEC. It does not make sense. An auditor reports to the shareholder of the company, because he is the bridge between the shareholder and management. SEC has nothing to do with the audit of businesses.

Madam Chairperson, I am sad Hon. Kambita is not in the House. He probably could have heard me. I am sad Hon. Kalalwe Mukosa is not in the House. He could have probably heard me. You cannot –

Ms Sefulo: Question! We can hear you.

The Chairperson: Mr Kafwaya, please, continue.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, it is good that other hon. Members are hearing this. However, the Government should leave accounting and auditing to ZICA. It has nothing to do with supervisory actions, whether those actions are predetermined as the auditor indicated or they are objective. It has nothing to do with that. Audits have everything to do with the shareholder and management, and SEC has no business in that.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much.

Madam Chairperson, my colleague needs to be reminded. When the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning spoke earlier on, he indicated that it is a sad day, indeed, that proposed amendments to a law can be so stuck on a specific company. It is dangerous, and I hope the further proposed amendments will not be presented in that manner. That said, I am happy my colleague referred to Hon. Kambita, whom he believed would have understood him. I am very proud of Hon. Kambita; I taught him.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: So, instead of seeking to hear from the student, you have the lecturer.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Laughter

Mr Anakoka: Madam Chairperson, let me read the proposed amendment for my colleague. It says despite the Accountants Act, 2008, a licenced person shall appoint an auditor who is a member of the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA). Where does it say it takes away the powers of ZICA? It says a member of ZICA. So, I do not know where the hon. Member is getting these insertions into this Act. It further says that the audit will be performed in accordance with the standards, but on top of that, there will be a requirement to meet the standards set by the commission. This is the standard all over the world.

Madam Chairperson, people who are familiar with these things will tell you that when the Enron scandal in the USA occurred – Enron was an energy company that was engaged in dubious, for lack of a better parliamentary term, accounting schemes, and it was being audited by an international audit firm. Not only did Enron carry with it over 10,000 jobs, but the auditing firm that was auditing it closed and has never risen since then. The issue, therefore, are the standards that are set by the commission which are meant to ensure that this specific industry, the capital market, is monitored with an eagle’s eye, including what the auditors are doing.

Madam Chairperson, this is not in any way to suggest that auditors who are ZICA registered would have quality problems in terms of auditing companies that fall under the purview of the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). No. It is simply to make sure that the reporting is complete. So, the suggestion is completely unfounded and that means even the suggestion, therefore, that the sabbatical tool be deleted, which is based on what the hon. Member is proposing in the first section, falls off completely as well.

Madam Chairperson, let me conclude by saying that ZICA as a professional body has members who prescribe to standards, and are part of bodies whose regulations ZICA is complying with. So, the auditing standards that are being used are international. Those auditing standards require that where there are other regulatory bodies that require specific standards to be made, an auditor is professionally obliged to comply with those, and I do not see where the problem is.

Madam Chairperson, I propose that my colleague gets a complete brief from what seems to be people sponsoring these amendments. It is very dangerous to focus our laws on specific companies.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much.

Madam Chairperson, I stand here to support the amendments proposed by Mr Kafwaya.

Madam Chairperson, when you read Clause 10 in its entirety, it is actually intruding into the relationship that exists between the auditor and the client. In this case, we have the auditor whose client is the licensed person and the commission is a third party to that relationship. We are making a law, for example, that will compel the auditor – I am reading from Sub Clause 46(a) – to meet the minimum criteria specified by the commission, but the commission is not the client. The client is the licenced person. The engagement terms of reference that will be signed will be between the licenced person and the auditor. So, to ask the auditor to meet the requirements set by the commission who is not party to that relationship is actually intruding in the relationship.

Madam Chairperson, secondly, this law also proposes sanctions for the auditor for failure by the licensed person to produce audited accounts. It is the first time I am meeting such a provision in the law that when a client fails to produce audited financial statements, it is the auditor who should face sanctions in addition to the client. The commission supervises the licensed person, not the auditor.

So, the one who should be made accountable for the failure to produce the audited reports is the licensed person and not the auditor. The provision which says,“… a licensed person who fails to provide audited results or an auditor who fails to report a delay by a licensed person is submitting audited results.” This provision is actually intruding, like I said, because the auditor is given terms of engagement by the licensed person.If there is failure, by any reason, it should be the licensed person to be held accountable by the commission because the law requires that the licensed person produces that audited report.

Madam Chairperson, to extend the sanction, as this law stands, to the auditor who many not be at fault for failure to produce the audited report, we are creating a law that is intruding in a relationship between the auditor and the client by a third party, and in this case, a commission which is not party to that engagement.

Madam Chairperson, with these submissions, I strongly support the amendments that Hon. Kafwaya has proposed. I think that if we all open our eyes and consider how this law is at the moment, we will be making a very big mistake in creating a law that creates a conflict between the auditor and the client.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, allow me to quickly refer to the proposed amendments and let me begin by stating that I totally agree with Hon. Mutotwe Kafwaya, who has proposed that there is no need to provide what I may describe as duplication.

Madam Chairperson, you do not need to be an accountant to understand the provisions that have been put in the proposed Bill. You do not need to be accountant to understand what is in the Accountants Act of 2008. I had time, while seated here, to go to what the Accountants Act says. No. 15 of 2008 is an Act of Parliament, which is called an Accountants Act. Again, you do not need to be an accountant to know what is in the Accountants Act.

Madam Chairperson, the Accountants Act, under Part II, talks about the Zambia Institute of Certified Accountants (ZICA) and the first provision deals with its establishment. The second provision deals with its seal and the third provision deals with its functions.

Madam Chairperson, so under the functions for ZICA, what we are discussing is provided for. Therefore, what is being proposed in the Bill is duplication. There is already a provision in the law and you want to create another law. Why should the Securities Exchange Commission (SEC) be given the extra mandate when the mandate is already given to ZICA by law? The day the Accountants Act was passed, there are some Members of Parliament in here who were present then but I do not want to start mentioning them. They are here! In 2008, some of you were hon. Members of Parliament. You passed a law which said that ZICA was in charge.

Hon. B. Mpunduare you telling Ba Jack Mwiimbu?

Mr Kang’ombe: No, I do not want to mention names. We are not allowed to mention names. There are hon. Members of Parliament who passed a law which was a very good. So, if a law was already passed, why do we want to give SEC more duties? Why do we want to give them more duties when there is already a body to which some of the accountants are members?

Madam Chairperson, for me, and let me repeat myself, if we start considering our academic qualifications, among all of us in here today, there might only be two or three accountants. Should we leave this conversation to the three people? No. This is a conversation for all of us.

Interruptions

Mr Kang’ombe: Since it is a conversation for all of us, there is no need for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to make a provision in the proposed Bill that ZICA should again wait for a minimum criterion to be specified by the commission. There is no need. That is what the proposed Bill is saying. So, Hon. Kafwaya is saying no. We already have the ZICA. Why should we give the mandate to SEC? We should not do that. We already have an organisation recognised in the law. So, I support the proposed deletion. Let us delete this part which talks about meeting minimum criteria to be set by the commission. There is no need for the commission to set the criteria. Accountants will tell you that the criteria is there and international accounting standards are already there. So, why should you create a new standard? I support the proposed deletion by Hon. Kafwaya.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, let me start by saying that we should indeed, in this House, avoid being used by outsiders. We should avoid that because we risk –

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, madam.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, let me start by welcoming you back to the seat. It is a great relief to have in the seat.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is premised on Standing Order 65. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has continued making innuendoes and insinuations in this august House –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: – with regard to the process currently going on which is properly provided for. Scrutinising of Bills at different stages is the responsibility of hon. Members of Parliament. The issues that are being raised by hon. Members of Parliament are to some extent in line with ensuring that the august House is consistent with its –

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I do not know how many people want to assist you.

Madam Chairperson: I do not know, should we just make progress?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, for the sake of progress, what I am just trying to say is that hon. Members have a responsibility of ensuring that their legislative functions are consistent and that the laws that we pass are not in conflict at any given point. The valid reasons that have been cited by hon. Members are very clear. All we need is the hon. Minister, who was minister at the time the Accountants Bill was being considered, which he presented to this august House in 2008. So, all the hon. Minister needs to do is to explain on how the harmonisation between the proposed Bill and the Act is going to be done other than making insinuations. Is he in order, to continue on that trajectory of makinginnuendoes that hon. Members here have been sponsored when they are people’s representatives?

Madam Chairperson, I seek for your serious guidance so that the hon. Minister does not mislead all of us and himself.

Madam Chairperson: Although there is no breach that has been indicated. Mr Kampyongo you have actually debated and you have also given answers to the issues that you raised, which are also very important issues. So, you have already debated that point of order adequately.

Further, from what I heard, although he did not go far, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning mentioned one or two words then there was a point of order. However, he did not mention any names.

Hon. Minister, make progress so that we wind up this very important Bill that was brought to the House.

Madam Speaker, we are human beings and can be tempted to comment on things when given positions, and we can make mistakes. So, people might take offence from whatever his comments. However, for now, as one amongst commissioners, he needs to discipline his mouth.

Laughter

Mr Menyani Zulu: We usually make mistakes when we talk. This is my appeal and this is what I am trying to recommend. So, to Mr McDonald Chipenzi, it is just important that we govern our country and conduct elections with all the professionalism there is.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I believe that the President chose the best people he could and we need to help him by supporting their nomination.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: That is what we need to do as Parliament. I do not think we will be helping our people if we are going to be beating about the bush. These are the people the President has chosen. They need not disappoint the President. Whichever mistake they make, by the end of the day, people will say that it is His Excellency the President who has made it. My appeal to those who have been nominated is that they see to it that they do their job excellently.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Thank you for the two minutes left.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.

Madam, I will go straight to the issues in the nominations listed.From the outset, I support only two nominees. I will start with the nominated Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), Mr Gilbert Andford Phiri. I know him personally;he was my lawyer. He is an astute lawyer with high integrity. He actually reminds me of one lawyer, the gallant lawyer of this soil we were putting to rest last week, Mr Tutwa Ngulube.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa:He isamong very few lawyerswe have seen who do not put money first. If they believe in a case, they go into it with their heart and fight for the case in court. When they win,that is when they tell a client that there is a bill. You actually remind them. So, having had the late lawyer, Tutwa,and Gilbert as my lawyers, I know that they are amongst lawyers that belong to thatgroup that does the job with high integrity and without fear or favour. So, I support the DPP nominee, Mr Phiri.

Madam Speaker, the second one I support is the nominee for Secretary to the Cabinet, Mr Patrick KalubaKangwa.He is the former Mayor of Lusaka. When you hear that someone is a former mayor, just know that he/she is not a small person.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa: Just know that he/she is a big person. It is an exclusive club. It is not easy to be a Mayor of Lusaka. Even when you hear that somebody was a Director of Legal Services at the Lusaka City Council –

Hon. PF Members: Town Clerk.

Mr Sampa: Yes, even Town Clerk. So, that is an exclusive club. Amongst the former mayors I know isFishoMwale, a big man as well.

At the memorial service of Micheal Chilufya Sata, I heard the Catholic Priest, Fr. Godwin Mulenga of St. Ignatius, who in his speech, somehow just said,“ ... and also the man across there, at the Cabinet, why has he been acting for a long time? Can you confirm him?” It left me thinking. Indeed, it looks like the President listens to Catholic Priests because it was only a few weeks later and Mr Patrick Kangwawas confirmed.This is a man, to the youth out there, from whom to learn the lesson that in life, you have to be patient.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Mr Sampa:Mpombowibilima, ababilimatabaya. It means that in life, do not be fast. Do not be excited and do not be impatient. Wait and what is meant for you will come.

Madam Speaker, Mr Patrick Kangwa has been waiting to be the Secretary to the Cabinet for years. Even when it looked like it was him to take over, it was not him, but he kept waiting. For years, he has been number two or three there, but finally, his time is here. So, I support his nomination.

Madam Speaker, let me now go to the people that I do not support on the list of nominees, and they are three. These are Mr McDonald Chipenzi; the nominated Chairperson of the (ECZ), Madam MwangalaZaloumis; and the nominated Director forthe Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), Mr Tom Trevor Shamakamba. Why do I not support these nominations?

Madam, let me start with Mr McDonald Chipenzi.In doing so, I will quote the report and go to page 11. Mr Chipenzi himself actually said that,“There are rumours that I am a cadre for the United Party for National Development (UPND), but I do know what ‘a cadre’ means. I was just sympathetic to its cause.” Essentially, he was indirectly accepting that he was a cadre. A cadre is anybody who is affiliated to a certain cause. It is either you believe in what the UPND believes in or you believe in what the Patriotic Front (PF) believes in.

We know that, indeed, he applied to be adopted for a seat in Siavonga or is it Chirundu. The UPND itself did not adopt him in 2021. It did not find him fit to become – it rejected him. The previous debater was even saying,“No, it was an experiment.” I think we are making a joke of this House. We know that he wanted to be a Council Chairperson, but the UPND rejected him. Today, it is bringing him to the ECZ, in a big position, with zero experience. So, based on that and the fact that the UPND, now in power, when in the Opposition, said it would not bring cadres into public institutions.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development. What is the point of order, hon. Minister?

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I am rising pursuant to Standing Order 65 – Content of Speech.

Madam Speaker, in the United Party for National Development (UPND) where I am, was and, hopefully, will be for some time to come the Chairman responsible for elections, I am the one who has the final signature on who gets adopted to run elective office. I have been listening very quietly since morning, and now, to the hon. Member of Parliament for Matero insinuating that Mr Chipenzi was rejected by our party in his bid to represent people. This is totally not factual. Is he, therefore, in order to pretend as though he was a member of the UPND to authoritatively say that Mr Chipenzi was rejected when the facts are the opposite?

I seek your ruling on this matter, Madam.

Madam Speaker: To the extent that the hon. Member for Matero said Mr Chipenzi was rejected without knowing the actual facts, the hon. Member for Matero is out of order.

May the hon. Member for Matero continueand, please, be factual.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam, the other person I am rejecting is the nominated Chairperson of the Electoral Commission of Zambia, Madam Zaloumis. With due respect, I know her as well.She has been my lawyer before, but my stance is also based on the Government in power now and the promises that it gave that when it came into power, it would be a Government for the youth. We know that in this country, and in Africa in general, we have 65 per cent of our population being youth and 90 per cent of them unemployed.

First of all, I give a lot of respect to older people. They have a lot of wisdom, but when they are given tasks that are beyond them, it becomes a concern. She was born in 1947.She is seventy-five years old. Mr Ali Simwinga is also about seventy years old. Are there no younger people? Are we doing a favour to our senior citizens to be giving them roles like that? To be ECZ Chairperson takes a lot and there is a lot of pressure there. So, the UPNDisnot doing justice.It is not doing the country justice and it is going back on its word of always prioritising the youth.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, we can proceed. Please, be advised that the question is on Mr Kafwaya’s amendment on Clause 10.

Question that Clause 10, on page 12:

in lines 6 to 10 by the deletion of subclause (1);

and in lines 11 to 14 by the deletion of subclause(2) and the substitution therefor of the following:

Appointment of (2) An Auditor shall audit the annual financial

auditor by licensed person statements of a licensed person in accordance with

Act No. 13 of 2008 the provisions of the Accountants Act, 2008;

in line 11 by the deletion of the number (2) before the word “An”;

in lines 15 to 19 by the deletion of subsection (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

Report by capital A capital markets operator shall provide a report to the

market operator on Commission, on its failure to provide audited results in a

failure to provide prescribed manner and form within four months of the

audited results end of a financial year, stating the reasons for the delay; and

in line 20 by the deletion of the number (2) before the word “A”;

(i) in lines 21 to 22 by the deletion of the words “or an auditor who fails to report a delay by a licensed person in submitting audited results”;

substitution therefor of the words “fifty thousand”; and

(iii) in line 25 by the deletion of the words “ten thousand” and the

substitution therefor of the words “five thousand”put and the House voted.

– (38)

Mr Allen Banda

Mr Ackleo Banda

Mr Chala Mr

Mr Chanda

Mr Chibombwe

Mr C. Chibuye

Mr J. Chibuye

Dr Chilufya

Mr Chisanga

Ms Chisenga

Mr E. Daka

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalimi

Mr Kampyongo

Mr Kandafula

Mr C. Kang’ombe

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Rev. Katuta

Mr Lungu

Mr Mabumba

Mr B. Mpundu

Mr C. Mpundu

Mr Mtayachalo

Ms Mulenga

Mr Mundubile

Mr Mung’andu

Mr Mushanga

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwanza

Mr Mwila

Mr Phiri Peter

Mr Simumba

Mr Tembo

Mr Twasa

Mr Zulu Menyani

–(60)

Mr Amutike

Mr Anakoka

Mr Andeleki

Mr Banda J. E.

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chikote

Mr Chinkuli

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Hlazo

Mr Jamba

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kanengo

Mr Kapala

Ms Kasanda

Mr Katakwe

Mr Lihefu

Mr Lufuma,

Mr Mabenga

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Mr Mandandi

Mr Mapani

Ms Masebo

Mr Matambo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Mbao

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mposha

Mr Mubanga

Mr Mubika

Mr Muchima

Mr Mulaliki

Mr Mulebwa

Mr Mulenga

Mr Mulusa

Ms Mulyata

Mr Munsanje

Dr Musokotwane

Ms D. Mwamba

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nzovu

Mr PeterPhiri

Mr Siachisumo

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sikumba

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simutowe

Mr Simuzingili

Mr Sing’ombe

Ms Tambatamba

Mr Tayengwa

– (0)

Question that Clause 10 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 11 and 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 13 – (Amendment of Section 81)

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment afterClause 13, on page 13, after line 14 by the insertion of the following new clause after Clause 13:

Amendment of 13. Section 84 of the principal Act is amended by the deletion

section84 of subsection (1) and the substitution therefor of the

Following:

The Commission may prescribe codes of ethics and

corporate governance for capital markets operators.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: This is the problem with the distractions in the House.

Hon. PF Members: Awe!

The Chairperson: This question was actually asked twice.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can we be serious.

Hon. Members: No, we are serious.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members. Can we please make progress. I had, in fact, mentioned that it was the problem when we have many interjections in the House.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: I will go to the answer. The answer actually was, “I think the noes had it”.

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

Hon. Government Members called for a division.

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister for Southern Province, is it in relation to the voting?

Mr Mweetwa: Madam, it is in view of the provisions of Standing Order 66 which requires that one requiring to raise such a point of order should be prompt.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Chairperson: We are in the middle of voting, and so, I do not know where that comes in. It will just come after we have voted.

Question that Clause 13 be amended put and the House voted.

Ayes - (63)

Mr Amutike

Mr Anakoka

Mr E. Banda

Mr F. Chaatila

Mr J. Chibuye

Mr Chikote

Mr Chinkuli

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Hlazo

Mr Jamba

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kanengo

Mr Kapala

Mr Katakwe

Mr Lihefu

Mr Lufuma

Mr Mabenga

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Mr Mandandi

Mr Mapani

Mrs Masebo

Mr Matambo

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Mbao

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mposha

Mr Mubanga

Mr Mubika

Mr Muchima

Mr Mukumbi

Mr Mulaliki

Mr Mulebwa

Mr C. Mulenga

Mr Mulunda

Mr Mulusa

Mrs Mulyata

Mr Munsanje

Dr Musokotwane

Ms D. Mwamba

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nzovu

Mr P.S. Phiri

Ms Sabao

Ms Sefulo

Mr Siachisumo

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sikumba

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simutowe

Mr Simuzingili

Mr Sing’ombe

Ms Tambatamba

Mr Tayengwa

Noes - (41)

Mr Ackleo Banda

Mr Allen Banda

Mr Chala

Mr Chanda

Mr Chibombwe

Mr C. Chibuye

Dr Chilufya

Mr Chisanga

Ms Chisenga

Mr E. Daka

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalimi

Mr Kampyongo

Mr Kandafula

Mr C. Kang’ombe

Mr Kapyanga

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Rev. Katuta

Mr M. Lungu

Mr Mabumba

Mr B. Mpundu

Mr C. Mpundu

Mr Mtayachalo

Ms Mulenga

Mr Mundubile

Mr Mung’andu

Mr Mushanga

Mr Elias Musonda

Mr Mwale

Dr Mwanza

Mr Mwila

Ms Nyemba

Mr P. Phiri

Ms M. Phiri

Mr Shakafuswa

Mr Simumba

Mr M. Tembo

Mr Twasa

Mr Munir Zulu

Abstentions (01)

Mr Menyani Zulu

Amendment agreedto. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Amendment agreedto. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much. As you know, I rarely rise on points of order, unless they are compelling.

Madam, I must prelude my point of order by indicating that ever since the Patriotic Front (PF) was heavily defeated at the polls in 2021, our hon. Colleagues have become so bitter that their propensityto disrespect presiding officers in this House is almost unbelievable. My point of order is in terms of –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Can we please give him the chance to raise his point of order without any interjections.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, resume your seat.

Mr Mweetwaresumed his seat.

The Chairperson:I think let us wait for everybody to pay attention. We cannot be distractedby a few hon. Members. I think we all know why we are here. Can we maintain silence.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, I had just said that ever since the PF was heavily defeated at the polls, its insatiable appetite to bring down the decorum of the House, particularly by disrespecting presiding officers in this House, is almost unbelievable and unprecedented on the Floor of this House.

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Leader of the Opposition is a second termer. By now, it is expected that he understands the traditions, customs, rules and regulations that govern the conduct of the Business of this House to uphold its decorum. In disagreeing with what was perceived to be your ruling, he protested by way of calling it “nonsense.”

Hon. PF Members: Lay it on the Table!

Mr Mweetwa: Is he in order to behave in such a manner towards the presiding officer present in this House?

Madam Chairperson, I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Ms Mulengainterjected.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member for Kalulushi, please, there is too much talking from your corner.

We are in the House. Can we, please, maintain order. I had announced that if we have issues that we want to discuss with our colleagues, we are free to walk out so that we can even shout or talk loudly, but in this House, we are supposed to maintain order and, in fact, reduce the loudness of our voices so that we make progress.

Thank you for that point of order. Can you cite the Standing Order.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Mr Mweetwa: You can see how unruly they are.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Can we make progress, hon. Members.

Let us behave like hon. Members of Parliament. Ten people cannot be talking at the same time. Can we maintain decorum. We know our rules. I asked the hon. Member a simple question, which is to cite which Standing Order has been breached. That is all. I did not ask the other hon. Members to come in.

The hon. Minister for Southern Province.

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, in my initial raising of this point of order, I had referred to Section 66, and the Hansard has captured it, but when you are always heckling and you are used to politics of propaganda and misguiding yourself, you miss out on crucial points.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I want to make my ruling.

Hon. Members, I think, we are becoming – I do not know the right word. We are forgetting that we are in the House. This is the people’s House, not our House. There are rules that we set for ourselves that are supposed to be observed. If you have issues with one another, there are rules and procedures that can be followed. If you have got issues with the Presiding Officers, there are procedures that can be followed. So, for that point of order, I reserve my ruling so that I study the matter properly.

We can make progress.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Clause 14 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point order is raised.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65.

Madam Chairperson, whatever we are doing here should be factual and verifiable. I want to know how come the system we are using to vote is giving us wrong figures. Is it being manipulated?

Mr Kapyanga: Bale votelaabanabo!

Mr Mung’andu: Check the total number of people who have voted, including the one who has absconded. If you add, it is not giving us the correct figures.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: Should we rely on this system or –

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Mung’andu: If you check the screen, you will see that it shows that the total is 107. Further, if you check the noes, the ayes and abstentions, the numberwill not come to 107.

Mr Anakoka and Ms Sefulointerjected.

Mr Mung’andu: It shows. Listen –

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: This is the problem.

Mr Amutikeplaced his hands on his head.

Mr Mung’andu: Look at this man from South Africa pretending to be representing the people of Mongu.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, are you talking to another hon. Member or are you raising a point of order?

Interruptions

Ms Mulenga: He is an illegal immigrant!

The Chairperson: Resume your seat.

Mr Mung’andu resumed his seat.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, do we want to make progress or can we adjourn? It seems like we are not interested to work today.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Can we have Order.

Hon. Mung’andu can you please complete your point of order.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I completed my point of order. It was on the voting system. When we vote, we should be able to get accurate results but when you add up the numbers that were displayed on the system, you will find that figures are not adding up.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: Hon. Colleagues, check those who said “yes”; they were sixty-three and forty-one of us said “no” and one absented. The number of hon. Members present here, as indicated on the system was 107. So, add the figures.

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Thank you for that point of order but I cannot give a ruling right away because even we had similar results. So, it is something that we can look into administratively. There is no problem with that.

Clause 15, is order to stand part of theBill.

CLAUSE 16 – (Amendment of Section 148)

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 16, on page 13, in lines 34 to 39 by the deletion of Sub Clause (4) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(4) A listed company or company whose securities are registered with the Commission who fails to provide audited results, after due investigation by the Commission, commits an offence and is liable to the penalty provided in section 159.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. Let me acknowledge some of the views which the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning established as he winding up debate in the previous amendment proposal, which has been defeated by the United Party for National Development (UPND) to prefer the Clause to remain.

Madam Chairperson, one of the things that the hon. Minister said was that he had respect for me but I must read further. I must widen my understanding of these things. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning knows how I have admired him and he knows my position on the amendments because I have shared with him.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing that the hon. Minister said was that I must resist from being used by people who are outside the Assembly. Let me indicate to the hon. Minister that I will never stop representing the people who are outside of the Assembly because that is my job.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Kafwaya, can you please just stick to the amendment. It seems like you are now discussing the hon. Minister. Just go straight to the point.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I will never stop representing the people who are outside this Assembly because that is my job. The people I am representing, when it comes to the amendments, are the following who submitted to the report:

the Ministry of Finance and National Planning;

the Ministry of Justice;

the Bank of Zambia;

the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants;

the Zambia Institute for Policy Analysis and Research;

the Drug Enforcement Commission;

the Financial Intelligence Centre;

the Anti-Corruption Commission;

Madison Financial Services;

the Securities and Exchange Commission;

Pension and Insurance Authority;

Capital Markets Tribunal;

Capital Markets Association of Zambia;

Lusaka Securities Exchange;

Bankers Association of Zambia;

Zambia Centre for Accountancy Studies; and

Member of the Public, Mr Kafwaya, Hon. Member of Parliament.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1255 hours until 1430 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Kafwaya:Madam Chairperson, thank you so much. Indeed, before the House was suspended for that precious health break, I was trying to indicate that I am speaking for the Zambian people who are out there, many of whom submitted to this process via the report. I read through the list of stakeholders who were summoned by this Assembly to offer their witness. Indeed, that culminated into your Committee recommending as follows:

“In view of the numerous concerns raised by the stakeholders as well as the observations made by the Committee, it does not support the Bill ...”

This is what Madam Speaker’s Committee submitted. Hon. Members debated the findings of this Committee, and the hon. Minister, in winding up debate said, and I quote an extract from the Hansard:

“Madam Speaker, finally, indeed, there may be issues, I do not deny that. I have taken note of the report of your Committee. Now, this is not the first time that a Bill has had issues in this country. So, the issue is, how do we deal with the issues that are in the Bill? There are two approaches. One approach is that we can sit down together with our colleagues and they can bring out the issues and then we can make amendments.”

Madam Chairperson, in view of this, we, from this side, proceeded to engage the hon. Minister and we proposed progressive amendments, one of which is under consideration, which is as follows:

“… by the deletion of sub clause (4) and the substitution therefor of the following:

Madam, this is what we are proposing to substitute this amendment which is being sponsored by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, and subclause (4) reads:

“A listed company or a company whose securities are registered with the Commission, who fails to provide audited results, or an auditor who fails to report a delay in submitting audited results, after due investigation by the Commission, commits an offence and is liable to the penalty provided in section 159.”

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Golden Mwila was upfront; he commented that the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) is intruding in the affairs of the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA). This is what we are talking about, and ZICA is among the stakeholders who submitted to your Committee resulting in that Committee rejecting this Bill.

Madam, I am aware that when SEC organised a meeting on 2^nd December, ZICA was not included in that meeting. So, that unprocedural meeting which resulted into those amendments, some of which have been presented today, did not consider the views of ZICA. Even if ZICA were present, I would still contend that submissions of stakeholders must be subject to scrutiny throughout the value system, that is to say at internal legislation in the Ministry of Justice, those submissions must be scrutinised. At Cabinet legislative committee, that is, the committee of Cabinet which scrutinises Bills, those submissions must be considered. At Cabinet level, when Cabinet is finally scrutinising and approving the Bill for submission for publication and further submission to the National Assembly, those views must be considered. More importantly, in the legislative process, the members of Madam Speaker’s Committee should have had a chance to scrutinise those submissions by SEC, but alas, they are coming to this House via the back door.

Madam Chairperson, this is why I am saying that I stand here representing ZICA and saying that SEC should stay away from ZICA. The SEC should not interfere with the operations of ZICA. However, I know that very well-intended adjustments or amendments to this Bill have been defeated on the Floor of this House on account of arrogance of numbers by the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government.

I assure you, Madam Chairperson, that this Bill will be a subject of litigation. I, together with my hon. Colleagues, want to find ourselves on the right side of posterity. We cannot support this because it does not mean well. We cannot be part of the people who are saying that let SEC start controlling ZICA, no way. There is no way. The hon. Minister is representing SEC in this Bill. Let me also assure you that SEC is not a member of Parliament but an outsider. So, it is not correct to say that outsiders must not be represented.

Hon. Government Member: Wind up, we are tired.

Mr Kafwaya: It is incorrect. The SEC does not belong to this House.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, we have just had lunch, I have more energy now, but in the interest of time, I must tell you that I am here to represent the interest of people who are not here, who are outsiders, including ZICA. If my hon. Colleagues want to go ahead and vote against this, it is up to them, but the people of Zambia know that this Bill is intended to stifle the sector. It will go to court, and when it goes to court, I will be happy to say that I represented the correct side of history. I represented the people who denied this Bill in the first place.

Madam Chairperson, I beg my hon. Colleagues to support this.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Chairperson, I thank you. From inception, I put on record that I support the proposed amendment by Hon. Kafwaya, for a very simple reason. When you look at what the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA) submitted during the Committee’s hearings, you will see that it recommended that the Bill should not go ahead in its current form, and it is for a very simple reason.

Madam, the issue that Hon. Kafwaya is proposing should be amendedis putting auditors in a very awkwardsituation where they are being requested to be reporting on the failure by an entity to produce financial statements. Now, those failures may not be known by the auditor. Maybe, if the auditor is requested to submit a report on the failures, he/she would not have been appointed.So, which auditor is going to report and which auditor is going to be charged with an offence?

Madam Chairperson, this Securities (Amendment) Bill, in Clause 16 (4), says:

“A listed company or a company whose securities are registered with the Commission who fails to provide audited results, or an auditor who fails to report a delay in submitting audited results, after due investigation by the Commission, commits an offence and is liable to the penalty provided in section 159.”

Madam Chairperson, I have with me a speech that was delivered by the ZICA President. It was produced today during the media press briefing on various national matters issued in public interest by the ZICA President. One of the issues that were talked about was this amendment Bill. To be particular, she talked about the issue we are discussing now. Se said that the Bill says:

“A licensed person who fails to provide audited results or an auditor who fails to report a delay by a licensed person in submitting audited results, after due investigation by the Commission commits an offence and is liable, on conviction, to a penalty not exceeding one hundred thousand penalty units or to a further penalty of ten thousand penalty units for each day that the offence continues.”

Madam, ZICA does not agree with this provision. I am a member of ZICA and I share the sentiments of my regulatory institution. It is saying that the auditor should be absorbed of the responsibility to the commission on the delay by a capital market operator to submit financial statements to the commission. The issue of submission of financial statements is one between the capital markets operator and the commission and has nothing to do with the auditor, nothing completely.

Madam Chairperson, if a capital market operator has not submitted financial statements to the commission, the commission is capable of making the observation on its own without having to be informed by an auditor. It is very simple. If the commission sees that one of its members has not submitted financial statements, it should have a database and be able to identify that there are five operators, for example, and only two have submitted financial statements and three have not. So, for those three that have not submitted, the Commission should know them. Does it have to wait for an auditor to report to it that a certain operator has not submitted financial statements with the commission and the reason is a, b, c, and d? No. Why is the commission running away from its responsibilities? That is its responsibility. That is its duty. It does not have to bring in an auditor here because it is not his responsibility. The commission should not be given this power to start making auditors’ lives difficult.

Madam Chairperson, when we are making laws, we should make them favourable to the people. Laws should be made in a way that they are not easily broken. If a law is not properly crafted, it will end up being a bad law. There is no institution that can talk about issues of accounts in this country other than ZICA. I do not understand why the people who were advising the hon. Minister gave him that advice. They should have consulted the regulatory institution which, in this case, is ZICA. They should have consulted. There is no way you would bring in an auditor to start reporting on the failures of a company that he may not even be privy to. Further, the commission itself should be able to identify –

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 59. I have noted that the House is not regulating the debate on the Floor of this House. Order 59 is very instructive; you cannot talk on the Floor endlessly without being guided by time.

Are we in order, as a House, Madam Chairperson, to allow hon. Members of this House to be at sea to debate when Order 59 is very instructive on this issue?

The Chairperson: Thank you so much for that point of order. I am equally worried, but the way it is, when we are at Committee Stage, there is no indication in the Standing Orders that limits time.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: It is only at Second Reading that time is limited. So, hon. Members, I think this is one of the areas, as we revise the Standing Orders, we should address. The way it has been is that when we are at Committee Stage, hon. Members are just supposed to ask clarifications or questions, but now it is like we are debating.There is no limit for any question or debate at Committee Stage.

Hon. PF. Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: For the other areas, there is limitation of time. When we are doing any other business in the House, there is time limit. At Second Reading of a Bill, there is time limit. Unfortunately, at Committee Stage, there is no time limit. I think that is why you have observed that even the watch has not been put there today. So, I think this is one area, hon. Members, which we have to look at strictly because we take it for granted that we are just supposed to ask for clarification.

The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is attending to the questions and the debate in a short time. Unfortunately, we are using so much time just to make changes to the Bills, which is not supposed to be the case.

So, I urge hon. Members to be very specific so that we do not spend so much time on just the changes. We are talking about changing something in the Bill and it should not take us long. If you want to change something, just say that you want to change it because of this and that. With the way we are doing it now, I think we are using too much time.

So, we have taken note of that, Hon. Mwiimbu. It is something that is missing in our Standing Orders.

The Chairperson: Hon. Mukosa, you may continue and keep in mind that we are just making changes.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, your guidance has been noted. I will make sure that I do not reach tea break.

Laughter

The Chairperson: I think that feedback of telling us that you will not reach tea break is not helpful.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, I will finish in very few minutes.

The Chairperson: Please, let us be responsible enough so that we make progress.

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, as a responsible person who wants us to make progress, I want to say that, we as hon. Members of Parliament, should also be responsible enough to make good laws that we should not revisit within a short period of time.

Madam Chairperson,the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants(ZICA) is on record of having given advise on this matter, and there is no need for us to use arrogance and stubbornness to continue with something that people do not want. It has recommended that this provision be amended to read that: “the directors of a capital markets operator shall provide a report to the commission on its failure to provide audited results in a prescribed manner and form within four months of the end of a financial year, stating the reasons for the delay.”

Madam Chairperson, this is simple and straight forward. All they are recommending and what we are recommending here is that let us just remove the auditor so that the operator himself who knows who has not produced the audited financial statements should give the reasons. We have a case of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) which delayed to prepare financial statements. It is ZCCM which is supposed to give reasons itdid not prepared financial statements and why it delayed, becauseit knows them better. We cannot start telling the Office of the Auditor-General to give reasons and that if it does not report the issue,then,it will be committing an offence.

Madam Chairperson, this recommendation here is in line with what my colleague Hon. Kafwaya has recommended; it is in line with that proposed amendment.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I would like to put on record that I support the proposed amendment. As I promised, I have not reached tea break.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much. I will be quite brief in my debate.

Madam Chairperson, there is this constant insinuation that this Bill is taking away the powers of the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants(ZICA); nothing could be further from the truth.

Madam Chairperson, we are not talking about auditing the financial statements of a bottle store here. We are talking about auditing entities that are registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), whose impact on the financial markets of this country, if not properly regulated, could have catastrophe consequences.

Madam Chairperson, earlier before we went for lunch, I referred to the contents of this same Bill, and to the Enron scandal. Some may not be aware that as a result of the Enron scandal in the United States of America (USA), the Sarbanes-Oxley Act was actually enacted, and the consequences of that Act was to increase the responsibilities of the directors, but more importantly, auditors as well because there were failures that were observed as regards the reach of the accountants and auditors, when it comes to checking what the companies are doing. So, for completeness, I will read what is being proposed in this amendment.16 Subsection 3 says as follows:

“Despite the Accountancy Act of 2008, an auditor shall in writing provide a report to the commission on the failure by a listed company or a company whose securities are registered with the commission to produce audited results within four months of the end of the financial year, stating the reasons for the delay.”

Madam Chairperson, what is so complicated about writing to state the reasons for the delay? If the entire entity had its building burnt or it was hit by lightning, you simply write that, and that will be one paragraph. The whole issue here is there should be no undue delay which will result in hiding financial mischief, which could have significant financial implications on the society, the people who are not involved in the day to day running of that entity. Now, Sub-Section 4 which they are actually proposing should be deleted simply says, an auditor who fails to do so – but for completeness, again, let me just read it in full:

“A listed company or a company whose securities are registered with the commission, who fails to provide audited reports or an auditor who fails to report a delay in submitting audited results after due investigation by the commission – it is not even done willing – commits an offence and is liable to the penalty provided in Section 159.”

Madam Chairperson, nothing could be more straight forward than this. This is a very straight forward provision. I do not understand why some people are saying the powers of ZICA are being taken away.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, auditors are bound by their ethical code of conducts. They are also bound by the auditing standards which they subscribe to, but those standards require them to comply with any other regulations in a country. You cannot say, no, the issues between the auditor and the client have nothing to do with the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). So, when ZRA says it wants to see the financial statement, then you say no this has nothing to do with it. What kind of a financial system would that be?

Madam Chairperson, in this case, all that this provision is saying is that as an auditor, first of all, you are licensed, and as a consequence of you being licensed, you have obligations. One of those obligations is that when you are auditing an entity whose securities are listed with the commission, you have to report to the commission any delay, and a delay beyond four months is what you are supposed to report.

Madam Chairperson, with those few words, I think there is no need to pick up statements that people made at press conferences. It is very clear; the proposed amendment should stand as it is.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Just to guide further. This Bill passed through the second stage where it was heavily debated. So, like I mentioned, hon. Members, we are just looking at the specific amendments, which we are supposed to either support or not. There is no need of you going around and round when there is a very specific amendment that is before us. So, let us be mindful, keeping in mind the guidance I have given you.

Mr Mwila (Mufulira): Madam Chairperson, as I stand, I repeat that I support the amendment that Mr Kafwaya has proposed. I think that we are making a mistake in how we want to implicate auditors in the regulation of licensed operators by the commission.

Madam Chairperson, the proposed amendment is very simple and straightforward. Let us accept that Clause 16 is a bad law that we want to introduce to the country as far as involving auditors is concerned. I repeat that it is a bad law.

Madam Chairperson, if there are institutions that are very keen at managing their risks, it is auditors and auditing firms. While we want licensed operators to be producing audited accounts, this law which is shifting the blame onto auditors as well as licensed operator will distance the relationship between the client and the auditors. Auditors are very good at managing their risks and they do not want to expose their work.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Mwila: When they want to associate themselves with an institution or client who is being audited –

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Mwila!

There is an indication for a point of order. Mr Mung’andu, what is your point of order?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, this point of order is pursuant to Standing Order 107. We come here to debate and scrutinise Bills as well as the Budget before it is passed. I will refer to Standing Order 107(1), which states as follows:

“In the Committee of the Whole House on a Bill, the Chairperson of the Committees shall call out the number of each clause and read the corresponding marginal note.”

Madam, I jump sub-section (2) and go to (3):

“Where a notice of an amendment to a clause has been given, the Chairperson of Committees shall propose a question for debate on the amendment.”

Madam Chairperson, this is the stage we are at. We are making proposals on the amendments and you are calling for debate. I know Madam Chairperson you said ‘unfortunately’, but I want to say that fortunately our Standing Orders provide for us to clarify and give reasons. In doing so, at times we can take ten to fifteen minutes. Probably those who want to drive points home like Hon. Mubika Mubika, who is sleeping, and might have missed a point, ...

MsSefulo: Question!

Mr Mung’andu: ... can go beyond twenty minutes.

Madam Chairperson, is the House, therefore, in order to propose that we should not debate because this has been debated before when these Standing orders are telling us to debate?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Mr Mung’andu, I think when you look at the definition of the word ‘debate’, it comes in many forms. It can even be a question. It can be a debate where you are talking about something. The definitions go on, but like I had guided, please try to be specific in your debate, so that we do not waste a lot of time. You indicate why you are supporting or not supporting the amendment. That is debate. We did not say you stop debating, but that you should please not debate endlessly. We are supposed to be cautious of time.

Mr Mwila, you may continue.

Mr Mwila: Madam Chairperson, what I was saying is that in fact when we want to sort out a problem by having operators produce audited financial statements, we are actually risking having none of them do that. Why do I say so? It is because, as I said, the auditors manage their risks very carefully. If an auditor knows that by going to this client, he or she does not know the state of their books or how ready they are, they would not be willing to undertake such an audit. We risk now having all these institutions being affected by this law and not have auditors ready to do their work because the auditors are going to manage and calculate their risks very well.

Madam Chairperson, we need to understand what the role of an auditor is. The auditor’s role is simply to enter into an institution, look at the books of account and express an opinion whether the financial statements are correct. If there are any fraud issues and anything fishy, the auditor should report that to the client. So, it is not within the control of any auditor to prepare the financial statements. It is not within the control of the auditor to ensure that the books are ready for audit. So, if the client is not ready, it should be the client to be answerable to the commission and not the auditor. The auditor goes there, expresses an opinion and leaves.

Madam, let us also make a distinction. If this punishment or sanction on auditors is talking about failure by the auditors to disclose any malpractices that they may have come across during the time of their audit, yes, we can support this provision. This is because they have been there and have identified malpractices, but have failed to report. However, if they have gone there and the client is not ready, what auditors actually do is simply pull out. They will wait for the client to be ready and go back when the client is ready. This is because it is not their fault that the reports are not ready. It is not their fault that the books are ready.

Therefore, Madam Chairperson, to include auditors in this sanction, we are actually creating a very bad law that exposes these institutions to not even have an auditor because no auditor is going to be willing to be part of an organisation that has not managed its books very well. It would be risking the reputation of the audit firm and the financial status of the firm because these sanctions come with monetary sanctions.

Madam, part of this provision that the firm that fails to produce audited financial statements must indicate to the commission why it has failed to do sois fine. However, by extending the sanctions to the auditor, who is simply waiting to be called when the books are ready to go and audit, is extending the law too wide. We are including innocent people who should actually be promoting this law. We are now covering in the same punishment that the defaulting entity has committed to include an innocent auditor. So, if we want compliance, let us protect the auditor by removing this sanction that is extending to the auditor. We will then improve the implementation of this law.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Chairperson: The last one to debate will be Mr Kang’ombe.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, I will be very quick as I support the proposed amendment which has been suggested by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lunte. Let me indicate that when we are making laws, one of the critical ingredients to lawmaking should be inclusiveness. Inclusiveness should be in the context of allowing critical stakeholders to advise us where we feel that we are inadequate in terms of the impact of the law.

Madam Chairperson, one of the important considerations as we look at the proposed amendment is to ask ourselves: Have we been inclusive in dealing with this provision? This is because we seem to be taking time to agree whether what Hon. Kafwaya is proposing should be added or deleted. The point and answer lies in whether we are being inclusive.

Madam, if there is a law to be made, and today we are discussing Clause 16, we should ask ourselves which one is the most important stakeholder in as far as accounting matters are concerned. This critical stakeholder is the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA). So, what are the views of ZICA? I understand why Hon. Mukosa picked on what was said at a particular forum and I do not think there was any bad intention. What Hon. Mukosa was basically saying is that there is a very critical stakeholder called ZICA. Should we ignore what ZICA is telling us? Should we simply say that ZICA is protecting mischievous auditors? The answer is no. What ZICA is basically saying is that as a regulator, Act of Parliament No. 13 of 2008 gives it the power to advise the Government on A, B, C, D and, therefore, here are its views.

So, I want to speak to the conscience of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, and that of this House that here is a stakeholder who is very critical on accounting matters. Should we ignore what they have said simply because we want to deal with a different problem? For me, I think that there is no need for us to ignore what ZICA has told us. ZICA has put it on record, both in the report of the Chairperson and today, when it held a press briefing, that why should we transfer responsibility to an auditor when securities and companies that want to be involved in the capital markets are regulated by the commission. Let the commission continue regulating.

Lastly, Madam Chairperson, I want to put it on record that I agree with the hon. Minister that we must protect everyone; the client and all the stakeholders that are involved in the capital market. We go to the capital market to buy securities. So, we must be protected as well, but we cannot do that at the expense of jeopardising what has always been the practice in the profession. The practice in the profession is that ZICA should deal with all those auditors who fail to do their job correctly.

So, Madam Chairperson, I agree with the mover of the amendment that we quickly amend that provision, allow for SEC to deal with the capital market operator.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, as we make laws, we have to make sure that all the interested parties in the country are catered for. If you listened to my colleagues since this matter started, you will note that there is not even a single point where they have indicated that the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) needs to be strengthened. It has just been attacks on SEC. yet it is a very important player in all this. I gave you an example of how one of the players in the industry here in Zambia collected people’s money saying he wants to invest it for them. What happened to the money? It has been lost. So, given this situation,…

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: On the hon. Minister?

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: …it is very important that we should be balanced in our approach…

Hon. UPND Member: Bakupasazingati?

Dr Musokotwane: …and not thoroughly just condemn the regulator that it is being overpowered. What about the interests of those people who have lost money? Where are you reflecting their interests in all this debate?

Madam Chairperson, this, for me –

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister. There is an indication for a point of order.

Hon. Members, please, let us give the hon. Minister time to respond to all the issues that you talked about. The hon. Minister was listening attentively. So, let us give him enough time to respond.

There is an indication for a point order. Mr Kafwaya, what is your point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I rise on this point of order against the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, against the discourse that he has tendered on the Floor of the House. The point of order is premised on Standing Order 65.

Madam Chairperson, this Bill contains numerous clauses. I have moved amendments for some of the clauses. It is clear that I support clauses which I did not move amendments on. The hon. Minister cannot accuse us of not supporting SEC. He cannot say we have not supported SEC when, in fact, we are saying change this and that and the Bill goes. This is a Bill which has not been supported by Madam Speaker’s Committee.

Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to claim that we have not supported SEC when, in fact, we are moving amendments for just a few of these provisions?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Thank you, Mr Kafwaya. I was actually trying to catch up with what the hon. Minister was responding to. Unfortunately, it is like he did not even go far in his response. So, like I indicated, let us give him time. However, I also urge the hon. Minister to be very specific and maybe, address the issues that were raised without bringing in other issues which were not raised. With that guide, the hon. Minister may continue.

Let us give him time because it is very difficult for me to even make a ruling because I was still trying to catch up with what he was talking about.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Dr Musokotwane: I take your advice Madam Chairperson. I was just responding to the extra issues outside the clauses that the hon. Members stated in their debates. So, I felt compelled to respond to those issues outside the clauses that were talked about. However, I will follow your advice.

Madam Chairperson, the issue under discussion here is on the responsibilities of the auditor under the Bill. To explain that, let us step back a little bit and ask ourselves a question. This is an amendment law. We still have the 2016 Act which we are amending now, not everywhere, but in certain parts. So, what does the 2016 Act say regarding the responsibilities of auditors? In the 2016 Act, the preparation of financial statements is the responsibility of two entities. The operator himself/herself and then, the auditor are charged with the responsibility of preparing financial statements. So, in the 2016 Act, the responsibility of the auditor is even heavier because it says the auditor is also responsible for the timely production of financial statements. What does my amendment say? My amendment says going forward, the operator shall be responsible for producing financial statements, but the auditor is no longer responsible for producing financial statement.

So, in short, Madam Chairperson, we have actually lightened the burden of the auditor from the way it was up to 2016. We have made that burden lighter. This is why I was advising our colleagues here in the morning to please, read.

Mr Mubika: Yes, and understand.

Dr Musokotwane: Read and understand. They should not just to be talking and talking without understanding. That is not helpful.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: So, read and understand. Be educated in what you are talking about.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, what I am saying is that the burden of the auditor now is lighter than what it was in 2016. What is the responsibility of the auditor now? I want to thank, again, Hon. Anakoka. The responsibility of the auditor, in the proposal, is simply to say, me, I have been waiting for that operator…

Mr Kalobo: The Committee has refused.

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Member: Jerabo!

Dr Musokotwane: …but the responsibility of the auditor is merely to say those people, the operators have delayed to produce the financial report. Just that.

It is just to say they have delayed. Is this unusual? No, it is actually very usual. Again, I say, go and read the Banking and Financial Services Act and other regulatory laws. Go and read them and understand that, in fact, what is being provided for here is a mirror image of what you see in other regulatory laws. That is what you see there. Why is it important that we have this thing which says, ‘auditor raise a flag and say these people have delayed the financial statements?’ It is important because financial regulators need indicators, red flags, which show that there is something cooking. If a financial institution or financial frame is not producing financial statement, it already gives you an indication that there is a problem that is brewing.

Madam Chairperson, if you look at legislation in many other countries of the world, there is that provision, ‘Auditor, raise a flag.’ This is what we are trying to do here also. ‘Auditor raise a flag’, that is all.

Madam Chairperson, let me also remind my hon. Colleagues that the financial sector is different from others in the sense that the raw material in the financial sector is money. It is not about going to collect mangoes, cotton or spare parts. The raw material in the financial sector is money from other people. That the raw material is money from other people, there is an extra responsibility to ensure that the money for other people is in safe custody. This is why the regulations of the financial sector tend to be heavier as compared to the regulations of other industries. You are using other people’s money as the raw material. If you look at a bank, for example, whose money do banks lend? It is other people’s money. So, should we keep an open door were these people who are using other people’s money can act in any way they like? No.

That why, again, I advise them to go and read and understand. They will find that what we are doing here is in exact harmony with what is happening elsewhere in the world. As long as they refuse to make themselves educated in these matters, they will always be making wrong recommendations.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important. In summary, the responsibilities of the auditors, previously, were heavier. Now, they are lighter. It is just for them to say, ‘These people are failing to produce financial reports.’ You see this in the Banking and Financial Services Act, the Pensions Act and everywhere else in the world. So, why are colleagues so scared of doing things that everybody else in the world is doing?

Hon. PF Member: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Why are colleagues scared? Why do they want to do strange things outside the norm?

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Memberscalled for a division

Question that the Securities (Amendment) Bill, 2022, be read a second time putand the House voted.

Ayes – (35)

Mr Allen Banda

Mr Chala

Mr Chanda

Mr Chewe

Mr Chibombwe

MrChibuye

Mr Chisopa

Mr E. Daka

Mr J. Daka

Mr Kabaso

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalimi

Mr Kampyongo

Mr Kandafula

Mr C. Kang’ombe

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Ms Mabonga

Mr Mabumba

Mr Mtayachalo

Mr Mukosa

Mr Mung’andu

Mr Elias Musonda

Mr Mutale

Mr Mwale

Mr Mwambazi

Dr Mwanza

Mr Mwila

MsNakaponda

MsNyemba

Ms Nyirenda

Mr Shakafuswa

Mr M. Tembo

Mr Twasa

Noes – (71)

Mr Amutike

Mr Anakoka

Mr E. Banda

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chabinga

Mr J. Chibuye

Mr Chikote

Mr Chilundika

Mr Chinkuli

Mrs Chinyama

Mr Haimbe

Mr Hamwaata

Mr Jamba

Dr Kalila

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kanengo

Mr Kangombe

Mr Kapala

Ms Kasanda

Mr Katakwe

Mr Lihefu

Mr Lubozha

Mr Lufuma

Mr Mabenga

Mr Mabeta

Mr Malambo

Mr Mandandi

Mr Mapani

Ms Masebo

MrMatambo

MsMazoka

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Mbao

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyutu

Mr Moyo

Mr Mposha

Mr Mtolo

Mr Mubanga

Mr Mubika

Mr Mukumbi

Mr Mulaliki

Mr Mulebwa

Mr Charles Mulenga

Mr Mulunda

Mr Mulusa

Mrs Mulyata

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo

Mrs D. Mwamba

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ngowani

Mr Nkombo

Mr Nkulukusa

Mr Nzovu

Mr S. P. Phiri

Ms Sabao

Mr Siachisumo

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Simunji

Mr Simushi

Mr Simutowe

Mr Sing’ombe

Brig Gen Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

Ms Tambatamba

Mr Tayengwa

Abstention – (00)

CLAUSE 18 – (Insertion of Section 194A)

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment after Clause 18, on page 14, after line 31, by the insertion of the following new clause after Clause 18:

Repeal and 19. The principal Act is amended by the repeal of section 195

replacement of and the substitution therefor of the following:

section 195

Appeals to 195. (1) A party to the proceedings before the Tribunal may, if

Court of Appeal dissatisfied with an order or a decision of the Tribunal, appeal to the Court of Appeal against that order or decision.

(2) A party that intends to appeal against an order or decision of the Tribunal in accordance with subsection (1) shall –

(a) apply to the Tribunal for leave to appeal if the leave to appeal against the order or decision is not granted in the order or decision; or

(b) apply to a judge of the Court of Appeal for leave to appeal if the Tribunal refuses to grant the leave under paragraph (a).

Amendment agreedto. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 19 – (Insertion of Section 195A)

Mr Kafwaya:Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 19, on page 14, in lines 32 to 38, by the deletion of Clause 19.

Madam Chairperson, it is always important to express your conscience before people and hopefully before God. My conscience is such that this provision should be deleted from this Amendment Bill. I am saying so because this Bill will give tremendous power to the Securities Exchange Commission (SEC) once it is enacted into law. I have no doubt in my mind that numerous aggrieved participants in the capital markets will seek arbitration at this tribunal.

Clearly, the tribunal in trying to arbitrate may make mistakes, and these mistakes should be allowed to go further beyond the tribunal. If that tribunal is graded at the level of the High Court, for example, it is just natural justice that those grievances are taken up to the Supreme Court or even Constitutional Court. Now, to cloth the tribunal with immunity for its decisions is not justice for those who may be aggrieved as a result of what may come to the tribunal. I suggest to my hon. Colleagues that if aggrieved persons are not happy, they should be allowed to take the outcomes of the tribunal further beyond the level of the tribunal’s level of authority.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I think the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) is really in trouble. I do not know why this should be an issue that those presiding over the tribunal set up under the SEC, according to the amendments proposed by Hon. Kafwaya, can be sued in their own outright. However, I am really surprised, because I think my colleagues the lawyers are here. This is something that is everywhere. If you read the Banking and Financial Services Act, the Insurance Act and the Tax Appeals, the Energy Regulation Board, the Company’s Act, and the Zambia Revenue Authority Act,tribunal members have some kind of immunity.

So, why are we so focused on SEC and want to paint it as such. It is like you really want to kill it because if we go along this line, no one will volunteer to be a member of the tribunal, yet this is available in all the other institutions. However, for SEC, we are saying, “No, not you”. Poor SEC; it is so unfortunate. So, as a party that wants to see equity between the operators, the clients, the regulators and SEC, I do not see why we should say no to this normal proposal.

Madam Chairperson, I, therefore, do not agree with my colleague, and I will not accept his proposal.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Questionthat Clause 19 be amendedput andnegatived.

Clause 19ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 20 and 21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

CLAUSE 22 (Insertion of sections 218A and 218B)

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 22, on page 15:

(a) in line 23 by the deletion of the words “one million” and the substitution therefor of the words “five hundred thousand”; and

(b) in line 24 by the deletion of the word “ten” and the substitution therefor of the word “five”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I am being urged to withdraw my amendment, which I do. Not because of what the hon. Member has said, …

Laughter

Mr Kafwaya: … but because it is similar to the amendment passed by the hon. Minister.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, accordingly withdrawn.

Clause 22, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 23 – (Amendment of First Schedule)

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 23, on page 15, in lines 25 to 34 by the deletion of Clause 23.

Madam, once again, and for the last time today, I thank you for according me this opportunity to move my last amendment.

Madam Chairperson, as a conscious human being, I have been allowed by the Assembly to express my conscience on the Floor of the House. What I have been able to express on behalf of the Patriotic Front (PF) party and all the concerned stakeholders will be used to judge my conscience years after I have lost my life. I will be happy where I will be lying that I stood for creating laws for this country which were not just fair but also promoted justice.

Madam Chairperson, my amendment is a request to delete Clause 23 and here is what it says:

“The First Schedule to the principal Act is amended by the deletion of paragraph 7 and the substitution therefor of the following: 7. An action or other proceeding shall not lie or be instituted against a member of the Board or committee of the Board, or a member of staff of the Commission for, or in respect of, an act or thing done or omitted to be done in good faith in the exercise or performance of any of the powers, functions or duties conferred under this Act.”

Madam, this Bill is providing some of the powers I am going to indicate to you and this is why I am saying there be accountability because these powers are immense and excessive and accountability on the part of everyone concerned should be encouraged.

Madam Chairperson, let me take you to Clause 6, Sub-Clause 15, which states:

“The Commission may, where the Commission takes possession of a capital markets operator or appoints a manager to run the affairs of a capital markets operator in accordance with subsection 2(a) and (b), take any of the following actions:

(a) freeze or restrict the use of assets, including bank accounts;

(b) place a member of staff of a capital markets operator on leave while the possession is in effect;

(d) run the affairs of the capital markets operator;

(e) transfer all or part of the business of the capital markets operator to another capital markets operator;

(f) dispose of some or all of the assets of the capital markets operator;

(g) sell the capital markets operator as a going concern;

(h) restructure or reorganise the capital markets operator; or

(i) take any other action that the Commission considers necessary for the protection of investor interests or to enable the Commission to carry out its functions under this Act.”

Thee are the powers this Assembly is giving SEC. When SEC misapplies itself in exercising these powers, any member of staff of SEC cannot be taken to court because of this immunity which this House is going to confer on SEC.

Madam, there is a caveat of goodwill, but goodwill has not been defined. Even the person who defines that goodwill has not been stated. Earlier, we talked about what is happening in the industry and we were clear that SEC must have misconducted itself, but for that action and future actions, SEC will not be taken to court, the board will not be taken to court and individual staff members of SEC cannot be taken to court.

Madam Chairperson, if you are a Member of Parliament like me and you have a conscience like I have, can you say such a provision should be let go? Can you say that an institution that is being given such power should be allowed to exercise this power without the ability to question that power?

Madam, I end by saying history will judge.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Anakoka: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much. This will be a quick one.

Madam, the hon. Member read the powers of the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC), as an institution, and then immediately conflates its powers with what is provided for in the section that he was just reading. I just want to read it for completeness’ sake. That is page –

Madam Chairperson, I cannot find the section here. I wanted to read it word for word, but, nonetheless, I will refer to it. It talks about no action can be taken against a member of staff, a committee or a member of the board. It is talking about individuals. It is giving them immunity at individual level from prosecution for the decisions of the commission. If you have a tax dispute with the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and you take the matter to the Tax Tribunal, when the board makes a decision, an individual member of that tribunal cannot be sued in their individual capacity. That is what the provision is talking about. So, there is absolutely no confusion. The powers that the hon. Member was referring to when he was sounding almost emotional are talking about the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). They are not powers of an individual. The amendment here is talking about the individuals. Therefore, it is in order that it stays the way it is. There is absolutely nothing to fear.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, indeed, Hon. Anakoka is spot on.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam, I really do not understand why there is so much concern about SEC and what wrong it has done to deserve all this.

Madam Chairperson, if we were to step back to the time of the Patriotic Front (PF) in Government, we would easily fish out laws or Bills that were presented in this House, where similar provisions were made. We can easily find that.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of immunity against individuals executing official functions that is nothing that is strange. Here in Parliament, we have immunity as members of staff or as hon. Members of Parliament. If you talk about other regulatory bodies, for example, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), you can sue them as an institution but you cannot sue individuals when they are performing their rightful duties. As regards the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), all those items that Hon. Kafwaya was talking about; taking charge of an institution because it is insolvent or it is acting contrary to the law, removing managers and closing institutions, are things that have been done over and over starting from the 1990s. Those are normal functions of a regulatory organisation, and there is nothing strange about that. Furthermore, no one has ever heard that the former director of bank supervision has been arrested or sued, or that the Governor has been sued in his individual capacity, it does not happen like that.

Madam Chairperson, so, I still do not understand why there is so much pressure to water down the normal regulatory function of SEC. I do not understand. These are normal things and the immunity that we are talking about is as normal as the immunity that we, the hon. Members of Parliament enjoy.

Madam Chairperson, so for all those reasons, I cannot agree with Hon. Kafwaya and his amendment is rejected.

I thank you, Madam.

Question that Clause 23 be amended putand negatived.

Clause 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

GENERAL AMENDMENT

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move a general amendment:

by the renumbering of clauses 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 as clauses 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12, respectively; and

by the renumbering of clauses 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 and 24 as clauses 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25, respectively.

Title agreed to.

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Clause 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and 11 ordered to stand part of Bill.

CALUSE12 – (Amendment of Ninth Schedule)

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendmentin Clause 12, on page 10, in lines 9 to 33 and on page 11, in lines 1 and 2, by the deletion of Part III and the substitution therefor of the following:

PART III

TAX ON BETTING AND GAMING

	Type of Game	Monthly Tax Rate or Monthly Tax Amount
1.	Online Casino Live Games	20 percent of gross takings
2.	Online Casino Machine Games	35 percent of gross takings
3.	Casino Games (Brick and Mortar)	K5, 000 per table
4.	Online Lottery Winnings	35 percent of net proceeds
5.	Lottery Winnings (Brick and Mortar)	15 percent of net proceeds
6.	Online Betting	25 percent of gross takings
7.	Betting (Brick and Mortar)	15 percent of gross takings
8.	Gaming Machines	K500 per machine

NOTES:

“Net proceeds” means the gross proceeds less sums paid out for the prizes.
“Gross takings” means the total amount staked by players less the winnings payable and redemptions by the players.
The 15 percent tax rate on Betting (Brick and Mortar) and Lottery Winnings (Brick and Mortar) is only applicable for the 2023 and 2024 charge years.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 13 – (Amendment of section 81)

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment after clause 13, on page 13, after line 14by the insertion of the following new clause:

Amendment of section 84

13. Section 84 of the principal Act is amended by the deletion of subsection (1) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(1) The Commission may prescribe codes of ethics and corporate governance for capital markets operators.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 13, as amended, ordered to sand part of the Bill.

Title agreed.

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Securities (Amendment) Bill, 2022

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2022

Report Stages on Thursday, 15^thDecember, 2022

REPORT STAGE

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2022

Report adopted.

Third Reading on Thursday, 15^th December, 2022.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the

Chair]

VOTE 88 – (Muchinga Province – K82,245,296), VOTE 90 – (Lusaka Province K131,977,212), VOTE 91 – (Copperbelt Province – K111,226,666), VOTE 92 – (Central Province – K109,072,940), VOTE 93 – (Northern Province – K111,752,221), VOTE 94 – (Western Province – K119,328,492), VOTE 95 – (Eastern Province – K102,375,167), VOTE 96 – (Luapula Province – K106,921,646), VOTE 97 – (North-Western Province – K102,563,027) and VOTE 98 – (Southern Province K113,189,519).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Chairperson, I would like thank you for according me this chance, on behalf of the people of people of Mwembezhi, to debate on the Vote for the Central Province.

Madam Chairperson, we, in the Central Province, are delighted that today, we can talk from your right hand side. We are delighted because we can chart the way for our province, as it is supposed to be, without segregation.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Madam Chairperson, you will note that from time immemorial to date, our province has been put in the backyard in terms of development. We must work hard for us to be like other provinces deemed to be developed since 2016. I remember some hon. Members standing in this House and saying that there was massive development in their provinces. So, as the people of Central Province, we must now move at a supersonic speed so that we catch up.

Madam Chairperson, in the province, there are issues to do with the road network. I will start with that then I will later talk about mining and agriculture.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the road network. We must push for the construction of the road that joins Landless Corner from Mumbwa as it can decongest other roads. When one is going to Mumbwa from Kabwe, one first goes to Lusaka and then to Mumbwa, but it would be better to turn at the Landless Corner Junction and go straight to Mumbwa. So, that road when constructed can decongest Lusaka, and we need to look into that.

Madam Chairperson, however, the first priority is the road from Mumbwa turnoff via Nampundwe to the Blue Lagoon National Park. The Blue Lagoon National Park is an attraction which can complement the activities that will be taking place at the new conference centre here in Lusaka. When people from all over the world come for conferences, after some sessions, they might want to go there and relax. We need to construct a tarred road so that it can be taking thirty minutes to reach the Blue Lagoon National Park. When the road is tarred, we will earn a lot of money and inspire tourism.

Madam Chairperson, we want the hon. Minister of Tourism to work with the hon. Minister for Central Province so that the Blue Lagoon National Park becomes a haven of people who come here. It takes time for one to drive from Lusaka to Mfuwe and Livingstone, but it takes a few minutes to reach the Blue Lagoon National Park. Let us work on the road that starts from Farmers to Nampundwe, leads to Shikatende and the Blue Lagoon National Park, and back to Mumbwa. When that road is done, we will do a lot of justice to the people in Central Province.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the road in Ngabwe. The hon. Minister should not forget about the road that goes to Ngabwe. If Ngabwe was developed, it would be the new capital city of Zambia. Therefore, there is a need to look into constructing that road. The hon. Minister should do justice to that road.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about mining. I know the hon. Minister may have reservations on the story of gold in Mumbwa. However, let me talk about the issue of gold in Mumbwa, Mumbwa Zambia Air Force (ZAF) Base and Chisamba. The hon. Minister knows that the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) is buying gold from all over. If we, the people in Central Province were united, we could work with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and find a solution of how we can mine gold and package it properly so that we can take to BoZ. I tell you, we can turn the fortunes of this country, which is heavily indebted. How can you continue being in debt when you have so much gold?

Madam Chairperson, there is also a lot of illegal mining. Some people in Central Province come all the way from Mwembezhi, Nangoma and Mumbwa to mine gold, but they are harassed that they are doing illegal mining. However, we see people, who come all the way from Tanzania and Ethiopia, mining gold in Mumbwa whilst our own people who put us in office are disadvantaged, and they are told that they are breaking the law. The hon. Minister should look into that issue very seriously. It is a time bomb for the people in Mwembezhi, Nangoma, Mumbwa and Chisamba, and we need to see how we can help them so that they can benefit from the mining industry.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about deforestation. Look at the mining of manganese, which is going around. What is the benefit, and what is happening? There is too much deforestation and the hon. Minister for Central Province should work with the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment so that this thing is brought to a halt. People cannot continue mining manganese illegally meanwhile there is nothing they are benefiting, and they are affected with the devastation. When the wind blows, roofs are blown off because of deforestation. The hon. Minister needs to work on that and make sure that such issues are taken care of.

Madam Chairperson, time is not my good ally, but I cannot sit down without singing my national anthem which has to do with the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources who is seated there. The hon. Minister for Central Province should work with the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources and the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment to sort out the issue of Kawena Protected Forest Area No. 42. That issue must be sorted out once and for all, and this concerns the people who shared the plots. I will not stop talking about Kawena Protected Forest Area No. 42 because that is a hot cake for the people of Mwembezhi. Let us work togetherwith the hon. Minister for Central Province. Tatunkoshikubalekelela bantu bezebweze inyika yaku misheshu. Saakobazwa tabachiteinyika?

The Chairperson: Meaning?

Mr Jama:Balyamanyina!

Laughter

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, what I said means how can people come all the way, from where they come from, and grab the land in Mwembezhi. Do they not have land where they come from? That is the question I am asking.

Madam Chairperson, the criminals must be taken to book, and the hon. Minister should not let those people go scot-free.

The Chairperson:Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. Indeed, I am surprised that I have been called upon to debate because I know –

The Chairperson: Mr Mutale, please, just go straight into your debate.

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, I know that it is my time to debate now.

Madam Chairperson, Central Province sits at the centre of this country. I am very much aware that it is one of the provinces that should have been very developed, and should have been doing very fine economically. I say this because Hon. Jamba outlined that we have many resources such as minerals, and we boast of Mukula trees and tourism. We also have so many perennial rivers and we are blessed with many rains, because we are near the Katanga Province, where it rains almost throughout the year.

Madam Chairperson, I am a sad Member of Parliament, and I note that one speaker in this House suggested that we should speak to chiefs and ensure that the Bangweulu Wet Lands are opened up for farming and we start growing rice there. The hon. Minister of Tourism, whom I believe is very hard working, has ensured that the animals in that habitant are safe.

Should we make a mistake of opening up the Bangweulu Wetlands for farming, it will mean that our animals will suffer those consequences.

Madam Chairperson, let me adopt the debate of Hon. Jamba as my own because he spoke about roads. The hon. Minister of Tourism went to Chitambo and in particular went to Dr David Livingstone’s memorial site. He appreciated what was done by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government to ensure that the site we brought to the marvel that it is today. On top of that, a road was proposed for rehabilitation and works started and are ongoing. Yesterday, I read and discovered that the contract for the road that was being worked on and progressing very well had been terminated. This means that the economic benefits of the road that would have gone to the people of the area called Chipundu and the country at large through fees that tourists pay will not be part and parcel of the revenue basket.

Madam Chairperson, I know that we desire a lot. As we desire a lot, we are looking at a Government that is supposed to also think about the people where the resources are coming from. Hon. Machila Jamba spoke about the manganese which is in our province. I know that there is a proposal to set up a battery manufacturing company. In this regard, I have not heard or come to understand why the Central Province has been left out. We can also have our own battery manufacturing plant, so that we can employ as many youths as possible. This way, we can stop the exploitation of our minerals by outsiders at the expense of our people in the the Central Province.

Madam Chairperson, it is of great concern that our forests are being mismanaged by those who are running manganese plants. Up to now, these people are still cutting down our trees, making charcoal and using it to process their manganese. This matter has been brought to the Floor of this House. I know that the hon. Minister has been to these areas to inspect and he has made some decisions. However, despite the decisions that he has made, I am sure these people are really not just listening to what the hon. Minister is saying.

Eng. Nzovu: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Mutale: Therefore, I am proposing that maybe the hon. Minister can come up with some kind of punishment or severe regulations that will regulate these people, so that they can stay away from using charcoal in the processing of manganese.

Eng. Nzovu: On point of order, Madam.

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, the Central Province –

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

There is an indication for a point of order.

Eng. Nzovu: Madam Chairperson, this is in relation to Standing Order 65. Manganese miners in Serenje and Mkushi were visited and have since been punished. Is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to mislead the House that they are not listening to us?

I seek your very serious ruling, Madam.

The Chairperson: It is quite difficult for the presiding officer to rule on that matter because I have never travelled to that area. We get the information from the hon. Minister himself who visited the area and what measures have been put in place. So we are getting that as the truth from the hon. Minister since he is in charge of the environment.

So, my ruling is that maybe the hon. Member can try to give us updated and correct information, so that we are not misled. If something has been done by the Government, the people will think that the Government has done nothing. Meanwhile there is something that the Government has done. Maybe it is also very important that you visit the office of the hon. Minister in charge of the environment so that he updates you on all the activities that he has done and the activities that he plans to do.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, I am happy that you have guided in that manner. However, the context in which I developed my statement was very clear that the hon. Minister went there and these people have continued with their activities. I have come from there and I live there. So, what I am saying here is the truth.

Madam, the Government had embarked on building houses for chiefs. A programme that was well intended and the hon. Minister knows that the Central Province has many chiefs. It is important that the hon. Minister works on this issue and pushes harder so that we can have as many chiefs as possible accommodated. This is because it is one of the loudest cries that we get whenever we visit our chiefs.

Madam Chairperson, another issue that we really want the hon. Minister to work on is the land disputes which are coming up, especially in those areas where, up to now, we do not have chiefs. I can cite some land disputes which are being perpetuated between Chief Muchinka and Chief Kabamba of Serenje. I am sure the hon. Minister is aware about this. It is a matter that he really needs to look at with the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, whom I know at one point visited this area and tried to see what he could do about it. However, this matter has continued and I hope that the hon. Minister would come through and assist.

Madam, moving away from that, let me talk about things that are already in our constituencies. The hammer mill or cassava milling plant that was built at a huge cost using Government monies. The project is just waiting for the hon. Minister to go and commission the plant, together with the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’stime expired.

The Chairperson: We will take the last debater, who is an independent.

Mr E. Banda (Muchinga): Madam Chairperson, I am very happy to add a word to the debate on the Central Province, Vote 92. To start with, allow me to say that it is always important to recognise that the Central Province sits at the centre of Zambia. It is one of the biggest provinces in this country, with valleys, mountainous areas and wetlands or swamps, so to say.

Madam Chairperson, let me urge and encourage our provincial hon. Minister that for us to make sure that the Central Province has the much needed development, we should always engage each other when we are planning for the development of the province though the Provincial Development Coordinating Committee (PDCC) meetings. I am a Member of Parliament who has never attended such meetings, but I know that such meetings are there and they have been held.

Madam Chairperson, the Central Province is one province where most peoplerely onagriculture. I must say that we need to work very hard in the area of agriculture. In the areas around Serenje, we need animal stocking. We have many areas that can be used for animal grazing, yet we do not have animals there. We can, therefore, restock animals by empowering women and youths. This can create employment forour people who are not employed.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to mention that agriculture is the mainstay of the Central Province. Therefore, we should work closely with the Ministry of Agriculture to make sure that the number of beneficiaries for the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) is increased so much so that we can produce more and export to the neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Then our people can have a lot of revenue through agriculture.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about the road infrastructure. We have very bad roads in the Central Province, particularly in Muchinga and Serenjeor should I say the whole Serenje District. I know I am the last speaker for the Central Province, so I will just speak for the whole Serenje District. In Serenje Constituency, we have theKabundi Road which is very bad. This road is very useful because it goes to the Manganese Mine. In my constituency, I have always mentionedin my debates that we have theNdabala/ChibaleRoad. This road becomes very busy because Chibale produces and suppliessixty per cent of the sweet potatoes that we eat here in Lusaka. So, during that period, the road becomes very busy. Could the Government, please, consider developing this road by upgrading it to bituminous standard. That will really benefit the peopleof Serenje.

Madam Chairperson, in Muchinga Constituency, we have bridges like the Lukusashi Bridge. We need to find a solution by putting up a permanent bridge. I know that by next week, the Road Development Agency (RDA) will beputting up a temporary bridge because theone thatwas there collapsed. Of course, we need to work on a temporary bridge across the stream which is infested with crocodiles and it connects our colleagueswho are in the valley. On the same topic, I would like to mention that we have the Lukusashi River in Chisomo, which isin the valley. The people of Kaombe are completely cut off from the rest of the country. Hon. Minister, if we can engage the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics to make sure that we are provided with a small pontoon, that will help us connect with thepeopleof Kaombe where we have a problem to even put up a school or any structure this time because there is no way of transporting building materials.

Madam Chairperson, we also have got a bridge along the Lusiwasi Power Station Road from Chieftainess Serenje to Masase. This bridge is a death trap. Of course, sometime back, I understand there was an accident that even claimed somelives there. Again, there is the famous and very controversial Kabansa Road. Kabansa is in the valley and we have got people there, but we cannot access that area unless by air. You know air transport is always expensive. Even taking of relief food has always been a problem. Please, if the Government can look into that road. It must do something about it and it will save money and take care of its citizens who are there.

Madam Chairperson, there is also the issue of traffic congestion which starts at 10 miles as you go out of Lusaka. I know that 10 miles is in the Central Province. We have a road that starts from the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport and goes through Chaminuka. I am sure it goes up to Chamuka and then up to Kabwe. If we can work on this road, it can help us decongest the Great North Road up to Kabwe. If the hon. Minister can engage his counterpart, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, I am sure they can work out the best way possible.

Madam Chairperson, as regards mining, Serenje is an up-coming mining town. We have manganese there butour people are not benefiting from it. This is simply because most of the mining areas have been taken up by big companies. We, sometimes, need a mechanism of blocking such areas and making sure that artisanal miners, who are the locals, benefit because they will have licences. This time, if they want to have a licence, they find that the whole area is already taken up and so, they cannot get licenses. This is not adding any value to thepeoplewho live in such areas. I am sure that is the same case with Mumbwa.

Madam Chairperson, regarding housing, I am sure the hon. Minister understands that his province has so many districts and we need decent houses for our people, especially those in the Civil Service. In my other debate, I mentioned that we have people, especially in the teaching industry, who work from very far places from town. They cannot have proper accommodation even after retirement because they do not have time to come to the Boma where they can get a plot and build a nice house. That is difficult for them to do, most of the time. If the hon. Minister can work with the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to make sure that we have houses in the districts, these people can benefit through loans. This will really help the people in your province. It will mean that the CentralProvince is now getting the much-needed development. Of course, I am not talking about, maybe, where we have lost it since independence because these districts have been there but many people have got hope in the New Dawn Government. So, let us see to it that the New Dawn Government puts in place measures that will benefit the people. Lack of water and proper sanitation is another problem. I urge the hon. Minister to engage his counterpart, the hon. Minister of Water Development and Sanitation, to make sure that his province gets a share of the Government is offering.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Minister of Central Province (Mr Nanjuwa): Madam Chairperson, I thank my colleagues who have debated for the good of our province. They have highlighted a number of issues, and I agree that those areas need attention.

Madam, indeed, the roads in the province are not in a good state. The provincial administration with the relevantministries is working extremely hard to ensure that the road network in the province improves.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Jamba raised the issue of the Landless Corner/MumbwaRoad, and I want to confirm that this road is receiving high level attention and that the feasibility studies have commenced through the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. Very soon, we will see a tender being floated for contractors to work on the road from Landless Corner Road to Kasempa.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nanjuwa: The Blue Lagoon Road is also receiving high level attention. We had a tour together with the hon. Member for Mwembezhi, the hon. Minister of Green Economy and Environment, who is the Member of Parliament for Nangoma and the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, something is being done on that road. Ngabwe is another road that we have put as a priority project as the provincial administration. We have made submissions to the relevant ministry,so that the people of Ngabwe are served.

Madam Chairperson, on mining in the province, yes, I agree with all colleaguesthat the Central Province is a sleeping giant which needs to be awakened in terms of the mining sector so that our people in the province can start tobenefit. We are very glad, and I can make mention to my colleagues that in hisBudget Speech to this House, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planningcame out clearly and stated that a big mine was opening in Mumbwa; the Chitumba Mine. With the engagements that we are having with the Ministry of Mines and MineralsDevelopment, we are looking forward to having gold mines in Mumbwa, Chisamba and Chibombo. Soon, licences will be given to investors sothat those mines can be harnessed and start benefitting the province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nanjuwa: Madam Chairperson, as regards chiefs’ palaces in the province, I want to confirm to my colleagues that yes, we have got so many chiefs in theprovinceand the challenge of palaces is an issue that the provincial administration –

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended at 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Nanjuwa: Madam Chairperson, before Business was suspended, I was highlighting chief’s palaces confirming that it is a concern of the provincial administration that we have so many chiefs in the province who have not yet been accommodatedsuffice it for me to say that so far, we have been allocated two palaces to be constructed in the province. This will be in Mkushi, for Senior Chief Mboloma, and the other one in Mumbwa, for Chief Mulendema. So, as the provincial administration, we will continue to lobby for funding so that many more chiefs can have their homes built.

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of the forest, raised by the hon. Member for Chitambo, yes, the manganese processors are violating the environmental regulations. As the provincial administration, we have been trying to see how we could help by sensitising them. We are very grateful that the hon. Minister the Ministry of Green Economy and Environment, theministry, responsible, came to the province to see what was going on.

As regards punitive measures being prescribed, according to the Act of Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA), the punitive measures had been pronounced by the hon. Minister and we are monitoring to ensure that operators are abiding by them.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to say one thing. On Hon. Banda’s Lukusashi Bridge which he made mention of, I assure him that as the provincial administration, through the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development and the Road Development Agency (RDA), we have been funded K1.5million so far, we have been funded with K1.5 million so that not even a temporal bridge, but a permanent onecould be constructed.

Madam Chairperson, now I get to give the highlights on the budget performance for the current year and the coming year.

Madam Chairperson, it is my great honour and pleasure for me to be given this opportunity to deliver this statement in support of the 2023 Budget Estimates of Expenditure for the Office of the President,Vote 92, for the Central Province.

Madam Chairperson, significant progress was recorded on the number of targets set during the year 2022.

Madam Chairperson, through the Policy and Planning Sub-programme, the province has been able to address most of the bottle necks that locked the economic sectors such as illegal mining activities, particularly those involving minerals such as gold, copper and manganese. I know my colleagues have raised this challenge. However, I assure them that even the Cabinet is concerned with these illegal mining activities and a Committee of hon. Ministers has been set up to ensure that we fight this illegality in the province. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security is chairing the committee and we are putting these things to order.

Madam Chairperson, under the Child and Youth Sub-programme,a total number of juveniles were successfully conveyed to approved schools and over 1,290 youths were empowered with life skills. This was in addition to the 177 youths that were empowered with funds and fifty children that were placed in skills training schools. Social protection programmes were prioritised and more than 4,000 vulnerable, but viable farmers were supported with food security packs, through the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. Additionally, a total of 163 women clubs were empowered in the province and nine intangible cultural elements were documented while 200 village registers were distributed across the province.

Madam Chairperson, as part of climate change mitigation measures, a total of 144,848 tree seedlings were raised comprising of 67,179 and over 270 hectares were established in the province. This is in response to what Hon. Jamba indicated in his debate. As at 31^st October, 2022, a total of K8.2million non tax revenue was raised under the Forestry Land Administration and Survey. In order to improve land administration and titling, a total of twenty-nine plots, twenty-seven stands and ten farms were surveyed while thirty farm plots were demarcated.

Madam Chairperson, under education, we are grateful as the Central Province that over 4,200 teachers have been recruited in the province. A total of 634 students were enrolled in skills training, and about 592 students graduated as at 31^st October, 2022. Further, over 900 youths were empowered with start-up capital under the Youth Skills Training Programme.

Madam Chairperson, the province has also continued to pursue dialogue to reserve boundary conflicts among chiefs. This is another issue that the hon. Member for Chitamboraised. For the provincial administration, working in collaborating with the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources and chiefs affairs,these are the issues that we have been grappling with and have continued to attend to them. We are committed as the provincial administration to have these matters resolved.

Madam Chairperson the total budget for the Central Province for the year 2023 is ...

The Hon. Minister’stime expired.

The Chairperson:Order!

Hon. Minister you can conclude.Your time is up.

Mr Nanjuwa: …is K109,072,942 in which there is personal emoluments and non personal emoluments.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion,the provincial administration shall continue to straighten participation of locally driven mining entrepreneurs and co-operatives to enhance economic transformation in line with the Eighth National Development Plan (8^th NDP).Under this one, we want to ensure that our locals benefit.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: We now move to the Northern Province. I have a list before me. Mr Chewe, Mr Fube and Mr Chisanga will debate on the Northern Province Vote.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the good people of Lubansenshi Constituency, in the Northern Province, this opportunity to add a voice to Vote 93.

Madam Chairperson, I acknowledge the budget summary which has been categorised in five stages, and I will talk about the objective of allocating K111 million to the Northern Province.

Madam Chairperson, to start with, the provincial administration will embark on pursing the targets set out in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP), fulfil its mandate, and meet its objective through implementing five programmes, namely community development and social services, natural resources management, economic development, local Government servicesandsupport services.

Madam Chairperson, I will explain where the Northern Province is coming from so that we know where it is and where it is going. I want to state that the previous regime, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, embarked on a multisectoral integration approach by looking at infrastructure countrywide, and in the Northern Province, we had to look at we needed to do with road infrastructure.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can we have order on my right!

Mr Chewe: Madam Chairperson, let me continue by saying that talking about road infrastructure in the Northern Province, it is evident enough that the PF Government recognised the need to connect the districts to the whole country so that when it comes to the transportation of goods and services, each district and province would be catered for. You will agree with me that a good number of districts were created to enhance service delivery across the country, and in each province, districts were created to ensure that the people of Zambia access goods and services without problems.

Madam Chairperson, in the same line, I want to indicate that there was the issue of providing communication network towers across the country. I want to put on record that the PF Government did not provide everything, but it was in the right direction in ensuring that there was network coverage across the country so that people can trade without any problem.

Madam Chairperson, I now want to talk about the economic values in the Northern Province. The Northern Province is one of the provinces which contributes to the national food basket. However, you will agree with me that at the moment, the only manufacturing plant we can talk about is Kasama Sugar. Now, as a country, we need to look at what we will do in various districts to create jobs for the youths.

Madam Chairperson, in that regard, I want to talk about Lubansenshi Constituency. I want to bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister for Northern Province that in Lubansenshi Constituency, there is abundant water and land and we can establish,for instance, a sugar plantation. The moment we do that, we will create more jobs because even the United Party for National Development (UPND)’s manifesto talks about creating jobs in each province. So, the hon. Minister for Northern Province should see to it that there are meaningful industries in the eleven districts in the Northern Province so they can absorb the youths in addition to what the UPND Government is doing. We need to support the UPND Government when it does the right thing, andwhen the Zambian people speak, it is important to interrogate the matter.

Madam Chairperson, as I am speaking right now, I am one of the disadvantaged Members of Parliament because some roads have been terminated and those roads are key in the Northern Province. To be frank, in my constituency, seven roads have been terminated, but the question is, have we considered how goods and services are going to be accessed by people in other districts? For instance, the Luwingu/Sombo/Chaba Road is one of the roads that has been terminated. How do we expect the people of Chilubi to access goods and services because the road has now become impassable? When there was an intention to work on the roads, people were happy, but because of the termination of the roads, they are now asking where we are going? It is like we are going ten steps forward and ten steps backwards. This is not the desire of the people of Lubansenshi or the Northern Province.

Madam Chairperson, lastly, I want to tell the hon. Minister for Northern Province that it is important to start having meetings with hon. Members of Parliament, council chairpersons and traditional leaders because not having proper communication will disadvantage the people in our consistencies. There will be a lack of flow of information. For instance, each of us in this House is affected by the issue of fertiliser because there was no proper communication. Some people were assuring the farmers not to worry and that the fertiliser would be delivered in good time and that everyone was going to get, but at the end of the day, everyone is disappointed. So, I am requesting the hon. Minister for Northern Province to see to it that the issue of fertiliser does not repeat itself. We represent the people and when we assure them, they expect what the hon. Minister or the hon. Member of Parliament says to come to fruition, but what they are going through right now is total embarrassment. We do not want to fail or President Hakainde Hichilema to fail. All the Government needs to do when we speak is listen.

Madam Chairperson, I know time is not with me. I support the budget, and I want to put on record that the money is not enough.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Thank you so much. I am sure you were talking about the contracts being terminated and not the roads.

Interruptions

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Chairperson, I will ignore the murmuring.

Laughter

Mr Fube: Madam Chairperson, for us to know where we are going, we should know where are coming from. I want to say that the Northern Province is one of the disadvantaged provinces, but with great potential. Having said that, I want to start with the issue of roads. I am sure those who read will agree with me that top on the list of provinces with impassable roads, is the Western Province, followed by the North-Western Province, and the Northern Province is in third position. That indicates that, economically, we have a problem with connectivity. Having realised that, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government embarked on a robust programme, which was called the Link Zambia 8,000 Kilometre Road Project.

Having realised that, the PF Government embarked on a robust programme which was called the Link Zambia 8,000 Project. In Phase I, it was supposed to link the provinces. We know about the Luwingu/Mansa Road and the Mbala/Nakonde Road. The other phase was supposed to link districts, but as we speak, as my brother there said, the Kaputa/Mporokoso Road, the construction of the Luwingu/Mporokoso Road and the Nseluka/Kayambi Road were started, but has now stopped due to the terminations that we have been hearing about.

Madam, let me address the strategy that we are putting in specifically for the Northern Province. I can see that there is something amiss in the strategy, especially in the Budget. Among the things that we are supposed to focus on are resettlement schemes, tourism development and promotion, agroforestry, enterprise development, social protection, water resource development, and youth, sports and child development. There is nothing wrong with getting these things on board but there is everything right in making sure that we realise where the gap is. If the Northern Province has the greatest potential for agriculture, it means that the investment in agriculture should be taken on board because it is only addressing agroforestry. This strategy is not speaking to the gap of comparative advantage for the province.

Madam Chairperson, we acknowledge that there is an increment in allocation from K84,634,534to K111,752,221, which is appreciated because it will also include the rehabilitation of Kaputa and Chilubi administrative blocks. I can see that Hon. Nkandu is smiling because something will be rehabilitated.

Madam, however, suffice it to say that the Kasaba Bay, which is a tourism asset for the nation, has stalled for some time. That is a money spinner not just for the Northern Province, but for the whole nation. Currently, all roads lead to Livingstone and many other areas, not because of any discrimination but because we are not utilising other spaces like the Kasaba Bay.

Madam Chairperson, the Northern Province has serious hydro capacity and, for the sake of my young brother who likes laughing at me, it has also got the capacity for hydromorphic areas.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: When we look at the issue of hydromorphic areas, I have in mind that we can attract sugarcane production and the Northern Province can easily become a rice belt and compete with what is happening in the Western Province. The Northern Province also has the right attitude for coffee plantations.

Mr B. Mpundu: Altitude!

Mr Fube: I said altitude, please.

Laugher

Mr Fube: Looking at this – Anyway, boys get bothered by small things, but we are big people.

Ms Sefulointerjected.

Mr Fube: Madam, I also have palm oil in mind. For instance, no offence meant, but my brother there in Kanchibiya knows that there is palm oil by ZamPalm, but if you go to Kaputa …

Mr Chanda: It is the only one!

Mr Fube: … you will find that it has natural potential where you can even grow palm trees within the domestic arrangement of households. However, that is a neglected area because there is no road. So, when we look at such factors, we need to unearth the potential of the province.

Madam Speaker, as we speak, only Kasama and Mbala have municipal council status, but because of connectivity, we hope that the status of the region can be upheld. The literacy level is below the national average and the Northern Province currently does not have what we can call a serious industry. However, this is a province that, among other things, houses many waterfalls that some of us may not even know about. Apart from Chishimba Falls, where it cuts, there is the Kalungwishi River, born out of MukupaKatandula, which gives birth to more than five falls, big and small. Among them are the Lumangwe Falls and the Kabwelume Falls and on the other side there is the Kalambo Falls, which I have not talked about. There is also the Kundabwika Falls. This is the hydro potential I referred to.

Madam, there is the Lake Tanganyika, the Lake Bangweulu and the corresponding wetlands which are also corresponding to Mweru Wantipa Lake. However, I do not want to mention what is beneath the soil when we talk about minerals. If you pick the mineral book from the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, you find that we have iron and many other minerals. This entails that with proper connectivity, the current Government could build from where the Patriotic Front (PF) left …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Fube: … because it had made a proper backbone.

Hon. Government Member: Question! What did you do?

Mr Fube: Madam, it would be a misnomer – As they say “question”, let me bring it to their attention that other Governments, which I appreciate, brought marine cables to Chilubi so that we may have electricity. There is a need to address these issues properly. We sometimes have no power for five days in Chilubi.

Madam Chairperson, for those who have read the Budget, it has taken care of all the clusters, including governance and economic transformation. The people of Chilubi want to participate in the economy and they can only do so when there is energy. Energy prices, including fuel, are something else. We do not have a filling station and then the Government also deprives us of electricity. We are being killed in one way or the other because we cannot grow primary industries and we cannot even venture into secondary industries. It is an eyesore.

Madam, looking at these factors, I suggest –

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

The Chairperson: Are you done? Your time is up.

Complete your sentence, hon. Member.

Laughter

Mr Fube: Thank you for the bonus, Madam Chairperson, that is good coaching. What I was trying to say is that since we do not have a primary industry and since there an industrial yard that was planted, the building that I talked about. If you find weaknesses in the industrial yard, you build an industry around sugarcane production, rice, coffee and palm oil. I can tell you that you can send scientists to Kaputa and that would be –

The Chairperson: Thank you.

Mr Fube: I conclude on this note, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me the chance to debate Vote 93. I want to say at the onset that I also support as my colleagues have done.

Madam, let me start my debate by lamenting on the cancellation of road rehabilitation in the province. I was in the constituency yesterday and returned today. I was able to drive on some of the roads that have been subject to the cancellation of the road rehabilitation contracts. I have in mind the road from Chumba to Musowa,the road inNkolemfumuMulobolato Ntumpa and Bulanda, and Kabila Road. The Northern Province is an agrarian community and road infrastructure is very important. The ministry’s decision to cancel these road contracts will negatively impact on the productivity of the province.

Madam Chairperson, my colleagues have ably argued the point on the multi-sectoral integrated approach that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government was using in developing provinces and communities. In the approach, we handled projects relating to road rehabilitation, housing, communication towers, water and sanitation. Let me advise the Minister for the province to use this as a basis for deciding the approach they are going to use to develop the province.

Madam Chairperson, in addition to that, there are major projects that have to be undertaken in the Northern Province. I have in mind the need to complete the construction of the Kasama Airport. The construction of this airport has reached over 80 per cent. What is required is to finish the runway and make it operational. It is very clear that if this runway is completed, it will open the tourist circuit of the Northern Province and ensure that tourists who mainly go to the Southern Province will also visit the Northern Province.

Madam Chairperson, there is also a need to start the construction of the road between Serenje and Mpulungu. The Great North Road between Serenje and Mpulungu is in a pathetic state. It actually requires to be rehabilitated completely. I was driving on this road this morning and I saw that there are only some small rehabilitation works that are being undertaken. I think what is needed is to do the actual completionof this road.

Madam Chairperson, in my constituency, there is the Chisanga/Tazara Road. This road has been done only up to 60 per cent.It is an all-weather road and it is the only road that covers the economic zone of Lukashya Constituency. It is only fair that this road be completed. The hon. Minister also has to pay attention to these bridges. There is a bridge at MumbiMukulu and at TB. These bridges where constructed and they were finished. The only thing that we do not have on the bridges are the access for these roads to used. As I said earlier, these bridges are on important crossing points and they ensure that the constituency is properly joined between the agricultural hub where the work is done and the commercial centres where the produce that is produced is actually brought for sale.

Madam Chairperson, I have noticed that 80 per cent of the allocation in this budget is for emoluments. I am hopeful that we can divert some of these allocations to ensure that we attend to these projects that have been begging to be completed.

Madam Chairperson, with those very few remarks, I beg to move.

I thank you, Madam.

The Minister of Northern Province (Mr Mbao): Madam Chairperson, I am greatly thankful to all the hon. Members of Parliament who have debated well the 2023 Budget of Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for Vote 93 – Office of the President – Provincial Administration, Northern Provinces. I further wish to thank the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government for prioritising programmes and project implementation in several sectors of the economy such as agriculture, forestry, tourism, infrastructure development, health, education, road, communication and transport sectors among others as enshrined in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP).

Madam Chairperson, before I go further, I want to thank the three hon. Members who have ably debated very important issues that affect the province. I sincerely thank them for their participation.

Madam Chairperson, I will take some time to try and address a few issues that have been raised by Hon. Chewe from Lubansenshi. The hon. Member talked about the road networks and some road contracts that have been terminated. On the issue of road networks in the province, some people have indicated that we should start from where the Patriotic Front (PF) left, so that we move ahead. I will try to discuss that one.

Madam Chairperson, the issue is that there is no road network contract in Lubansenshi Constituency that has been terminated. That is a fact. Most of the road works were under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development and so, what has happened is that the contracts have expired. The Government has made it clear that it cannot go on to start renewing contracts when it knows that it does not have money to support this. The road works have been put on hold until the Government finds enough money, so that it starts moving in a smart way. It does not want to just issue many contracts when it knows that it does not have enough money. It is not going to move in that direction. Therefore, I want to make it clear that there is no road work that has been terminated, but the contracts have expired. Therefore, after the contracts expired, the Government said it is not going to re-engage the contractors until it has enough money.

Madam Chairperson, still in relation to road projects, some hon. Members were talking about the New Dawn Government continuing from where the PF left and even mentioned the Link Zambia 8,000 Km Road Project. Yes, we have seen a road under the Link Zambia 8,000 Km Road Project from Kasama going towards Muchinga Province. That road was started a long time ago, around 2012/2013. It was worked on halfway, just like the bridge, and it still remains halfway done since 2012. That is the road that we can boast about under the Link Zambia 8,000 Km Road Project. Otherwise, the Mporokoso/Kasama Road was made during the time of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). Similarly, the Mbala/Nakonde Road was constructed by the MMD. Therefore, it is very difficult for us to see where we should start from if we have to follow what the PF did in the past ten years. This is because if we are going to go on that trajectory of the PF, then we do not know where we are going to land ourselves because we will be moving in reverse.

Laughter

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, on the new districts, I thank the hon. –

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65, which states that whatever we bring to this august House, in terms of discourse, must be factual and verifiable. The hon. Minister for the Northern Province is informing this august House and the nation, that the road contracts have not been cancelled.

Madam Chairperson, all of us as hon. Members are in receipt of a letter dated 30^th November, 2022, from the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, and subject heading of this letter, which I will quote, states:

“Termination of 197 Feeder Road Contracts Across the Country”.

I do not know what the hon. Minister of the Northern Province understands of this. He has opted to mislead all of us here and the country that these contracts had expired.

Madam Chairperson, we obviously understand that this is beyond the province, it is the responsibility of the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. Therefore, the hon. Minister should also be conscious of the projects undertaken by the previous Government of the Patriotic Front (PF).

Madam Chairperson, is he in order to take that trajectory because that is a policy statement he is giving in terms of his debate on the province he leads? Is he in order to start on that footing? If he cannot be factual, it will be difficult for us to trust and believe whatever he is going to share with this august House. I seek your serious guidance and ruling. Probably, he is using copious notes. He must be guided that for his status, he has to come with a written script.

Madam Chairperson: I do not know if that was a second point of order.

Mr Kampyongo: The hon. Minister needs to be guided properly.

Madam Chairperson: I heard the hon. Minister mention that the road contracts had expired. The other hon. Members who debated said the road contracts have been terminated. Hon. Members, we already know the truth or what is happening, which we are not even supposed to argue. Like you have indicated, there is a letter which says most of the road contracts have expired. So, that is the situation on the ground.

I really do not know what it means for a contract to expire. Different terminologies are being used. Some are saying the contracts were terminated and the hon. Minister is saying road contracts expired. So, maybe, the hon. Minister should be straight and clear as to what he means or what exactly is going on, so that the people can rally behind us with the correct information. So, hon. Minister, please try to clarify as you move along, so that we know exactly what is pertaining on the ground.

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, I hope I will be given a few more minutes after this because I am now being made to repeat what I said. What I said is the truth as regards what is happening in Lubansenshi Constituency.

Madam, what has happened is that those contracts expired. The right thing was to renew, but the ministry said it was not going to renew the contracts and would let them expire.

Interjections

Mr Mbao: Maybe, it is the English. It is very difficult to understand. I understand my brother.

Interjection

Laughter

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, that is another question; whether he is a contractor or not. We do not know because he is in receipt of that letter.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, I think there was only one issue which I had asked the hon. Minister to clarify for people out there to be clear as to whether the road contracts expired or were terminated, so that we make progress. Can we, please, make progress by you informing us exactly what is pertaining that people should know.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam, the issue of network towers that the hon. Member mentioned is a great challenge in our province. I thank him for bringing it out. It is alsogratifying to say thathon.Members are in receipt of letters from the Ministry of Technology and Science asking us for guidance us to it on where it supposed to set up the network towers because the Government wants us get to 100 per cent by the end of next year in connectivity. So, we are moving in the right direction.

Interruptions

Mr Mbao: On the issue of the abundance –

Mr Menyani Zulu: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Oder!

Hon. Members, just indicate on the garget that you want to raise a point of order. Mr Menyani Zulu, what is your point of order? I can see that it is burning.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is based on Standing Order 65 which states that whatever we say in this august House should be truthful. If in future, I tell the nation that the UPND never gave us K25 million or K27 million Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Fund, I am would not be truthful because it has done that.

Madam Chairperson, I stand here and say Michael Sata pronounced that he would construct 8,000 km of road under the Link Zambia 8,000 Km Road Project, and I will protect the legacy of Michael Sata. However, the hon. Minister said that the Luwingu/Mansa Road and Luwingu/Mporokoso roads because he cannot see those projects. He is not telling the truth. We need to be honest when we are debating for us to move, as a country.

Madam Chairperson, what the UPND has done today needs to be protected in future. Equally, on what Michael Sata did – I can speak about the three years of Michael Sata.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Is the hon. Minister in order to tell us that Michael Chilufya Sata, in his three years never did anything when he pronounced the Link Zambia 8,000 km?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, it is very important that we bring people’s issues into this House. Now, if we start going back and trying to say Michael Sata did that or the hon. Minister is doing that – People are listening out there. They want to hear exactly how their problems will be sorted out. If you know very well that there is something that was left out by the late President, Michael Sata, which you want the current Government to continue with, it is even better you tell the hon. Minister that there was a project that was left behind. If we now try to fight and show who has done what and who has not, it will not help our people.

The hon. Minister on the Floor, please, try to be very factual and give direction to your people in the province. They are waiting to hear what your province or what the New Dawn Government is planning to do for them. You may continue.

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member has even made get confused now because …

Laughter

Mr Mbao: … the road that he is talking about, the Mporokoso/Luwingu Road, I have never seen it. I do not know whether it is in the Eastern Province or somewhere else. We are stating facts. If the hon. Member has any issues, he should consult us. He can come to our offices so that we can give him more details.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Fube mentioned something very important; the issue of the Kasaba Bay. He said that we need investment into the Kasaba Bay. This Government is on record, for this first time, constructing the road from Mporokoso up to the Kasaba Bay. This information is in the budget. It is also constructing an international standard airport at the Kasaba Bay, unlike what we saw there the last time. So, it is going to be a different issue.

Madam, on the issue of a hydro-power station, we have enough capacity for the production of electricity, and the Government is already working on it. First of all, there is a programme to upgrade the Chishimba Falls. There is also a programme to unlock the problems that are happening at the Lumangwe Falls so that we can start producing electricity at that site. So, we are moving in the right direction.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Chisanga talked about the Kasama Airport. Owing to good weather, the programme is that by December 2022, we should be done with the Kasama Airport. If the weather becomes very bad, we have no control on the weather, we might go up to January or somewhere there. Otherwise, all the monies that are required are in place to make sure that by December, end of this year, that airport is done.

Madam, we have talked about the Chisanga/Tazara Road, which the hon. Member said is …

Mr Chewe: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Ah! Ikalapanshi.

Mr Mbao: Can I continue, Madam?

The Chairperson: Yes, hon. Minister.

Madam, I thank you for allowing me to continue with my debate.

Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the issue of investment into agriculture. We are doing very well in the area of investment into agriculture because we are now walking the talk. It is not just a matter of what we used to see in the past. We are now seeing things happen. We are going to make sure that the 200,000 ha of land that we have declared as a farming block in the Northern Province is on the programme. Very soon, and within the medium-term, we are going to see investments coming within the province so that we can start to operationalise that place.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

I am going to get the last point of order for the day so that we make progress. Hon. Sampa, what is your point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to rise on a point of order.

Madam, I refer to Standing Order 65 on Content of Speech. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpulungu and hon. Minister for Northern Province in order to mislead the people who are listening in the Northern Province and Zambia as whole that the agriculture sector is doing very well in the Northern Province when there is no fertilizer there and people have not planted? Is he in order to mislead the people of the Northern Province and Zambia in general?

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. This is the last point of order for the day so that we make progress.

Mr Sampa: Madam Chairperson, I refer to Standing Order 65, on content of debate. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mpulungu, the Minister for Northern Province, in order to mislead the people in Northern Province and Zambia,who are listening, that the agriculture sector is doing very well in the Northern Province, when there is no fertiliser there and the people have not planted?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

It is very difficult for the Presiding Officer to measure how good agriculture is doing in the province, because agriculture is very broad and it includes livestock and crop production. So, really, I do not know whether the late delivery of fertiliser has affected the whole agricultural business in the province. However, again, I ask the hon. Minister to be factual so that he guides us exactly on what is not doing well in the area of agriculture.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, I am stating facts here. The hon. Minister of Agriculture is here and the Northern Province has received 100 per cent of the inputs. So, it is not a speculation. You may like it or not, but things are moving. So, I am stating facts. Considering the time –

The Chairperson:Hon. Minister, you can wind up your debate.

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, I am very efficient with time. In conclusion, allow me to call upon …

Laughter

Mr Mbao:… all the hon. Members of Parliament in this august House to support the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Office of the President, Provincial Administration, Northern Province for the year 2023 amounting to K111 –

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister’stime expired.

Mr Mbao: Madam Chairperson, I have not finished. Let me just finish my statement.

The Chairperson: No. Actually, you have run out of time, and you were concluding your sentence.

Mr Mbao: I was disturbed throughout.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

I really do not know what the problem is. Hon. Minister, I asked you to conclude. In fact, you have finished your sentence and we can make progress. It is not like we are starting all over again.You had started well, and you were asking the hon. Members to support the budget. So, I thought that was the end.

Are we together, hon. Minister for Northern Province?

MrMbao: Madam Chairperson, we are together.

The Chairperson:Okay.

Hon. Members, especially those from the Northern Province, please, find to time to link up with your hon. Minister. I have seen that you are not really moving together or you have many disagreements. It is very important that you meet your hon. Minister to clear your doubts so that you are able to feed your people with correct information. So, with that guide, we are now shifting to the Western Province.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala (Kaoma Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the privilege to lead the debate on the Western Province, but for a start, I am happy Hon. Fube agrees that the Western Province is the waste in terms of the road network. For that reason, my debate this afternoon will focus only on the road network in the Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, the people of the Western Province are crying.SinceIndependence, Government after Government has been telling them to wait and that it would do something for them, but at the end of the day, they have been left in the cold.

Madam Chairperson, the road network in the Western Province in general is nothing to talk about. It is a completely a sorry sight, and we are not connected to any of the neighbouring provinces in this country. With regard to the road in the Southern Province to Sesheke, the road from Central Province to Mongu, the one from the North-Western Province through Kasempa and Kaoma, there is nothing to talk about.

Madam Chairperson, as for the Kazungula/Sesheke Road, right now, pictures are circulating on social media where people were putting fish on the middle of the road, and children were washing and bathing while trucks were passing on the other side of the road, and that is how bad the situation is. That is an important road which requires to be worked on, and I do not know why it has taken so long to be worked on because it is an export road. That road links Zambia to Namibia, through KatimaMulilo to the Walvis Bay, and our exports in this country are transported using it, but for so many years, it has been left neglected.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

Do not debate while seated and mind you, give chance to the people in the Western Province so that they get the message very clear.

May the hon. Member for Kaoma Central continue.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: Madam Chairperson, we appreciate the bridge being constructed from Mongu to Kalabo, but the road is not complete. The road from Nkeyema to Katundu is nothing to talk about, and even if the road from Kalobo to Sikongo has not been completed, the idea of this roadwasto actually enhance trade with Angola. However, if there is no road to talk about from Kaoma to Katundu and from Kalabo to Sikongo, then, we cannot talk about trade with Angola,thereby bringing more poverty to the Western Province and denying Zambia the much-needed foreign exchange that we could have gotten as a result of trade with Angola.

Madam Chairperson, the route from Kasempa to Kaoma and Luampa to Simungoma is the shortest route that should have been used forthe export of copper from the North-Western to the Walvis Bay. Again, that road is nothing to talk about, and the people are askingwhat is it that they have done to be denied this kind of development.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about other roads in general. Civil servants, for example, teachers and nurses who work in rural areas spend about a week when going to centres like Kalabo, Sesheke and Mongu because the only transport that is available is the oxcart. Some workers are deployed in the province and at the end of day when they go to the centres to get their salaries, they go for good. So, how is the province going to be developed? We need the roads to be worked on like yesterday.

Madam Chairperson, I am not shy to mention that no wonder, time and again, groups likeLinyungandambocome out in the Western Province claiming to secede because of the lack of development in the province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: This is a fact that the Government should hear. If we are going to skirt around the issue, then we are not helping ourselves.

Madam Chairperson, there are several other roads that we need to talk about. Hon. Mutelo, here, has been on record talking about the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/Mumbezhi Road. This is a very important road. It is a link to the North-Western Province. Apart from that, people do not realise that when you connect across to Mitete, you are actually enhancing tourism into the Liuwa National Park. So, it is a very important road indeed. In my view or in the view of the people of the Western Province, this road should be tarred.

Madam, there is also the Kalabo/Sioma Road and the Sioma/Shangombo Road. These are equally very important roads connecting Kalabo and Shangombo. They actually connect to Nalolo, which is a constituency, and without a road there, you cannot talk about development.

Madam Chairperson, there is also the Sesheke/Imusho Road, the Nangweshi/Sinjembela Road, the Senanga/Kalongola Road and the Limulunga/Lukulu Road. These are roads that should be able to make life easy for the people of the Western Province by connecting various places and ensuring that movement is much easier. There is also the Namushekende/Litawa/Senanga Road, the Lukulu/Mitete/Kalabo Road and the Kalabo/Shangombo Road. These are very important roads for the people in that area and if these places are opened up, then we shall be talking about the Western Province being opened for development. Otherwise, no investor will go and work in places where there are no roads.

Madam, most of the roads I am mentioning here are not even worth being called roads because they were just opened by ox-carts and then 4 X 4 vehicles have used them and that is how we are calling them roads.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important that we also talk about the extension and rehabilitation of the Mulobezi Railway.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: This is a very important link for the people of Mulobezi. As you know, that is an area which is so rich in timber. From time immemorial, the railway line has enhanced trade in timber between the Western Province and the Southern Province.

Madam, I will not be complete in my debate if I cannot talk about the feeder roads in the entire Western Province. There is nothing to really talk about. So, how can you even enhance agricultural activities that are so important to the growth of the province? There is nothing to talk about.

Madam, there are others roads which are also important. We have three farming blocks in the province.

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’stime expired.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: These are Kalumwange, Lombelombe ...

The Chairperson: Your time is up, General.

Brig-Gen. Sitwala: ... and Dongwe.

Madam, I want to thank you and I hope my hon. Colleagues will be able to continue from where I have stopped because we have a cry.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing the voice of Nalolo to be heard. Let me add on to the debate given by Hon. Sitwala.

Madam Chairperson, since 1991, the Western Province tops as the poorest province with 80 per cent poverty levels. Out of that 80 per cent, 64 per cent are in abject poverty. In the Western Province, only 4 per cent of the population has access to electricity and only 49 per cent have access to clean water, despite the province hosting over 30 per cent of the Zambezi River in Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, as I stand here to debate the budgetary allocation for the Western Province, there is need to admit that it is not enough. We are standing at a point where we must look at history. When Zambia got independent in 1964, the Western Province was one of the richest provinces in the country. First of all, the first school in the country, Sefula, was in the Western Province and it is still in there. At the time of Independence, the Barotse treasury had £‎78 million. Therefore, we need to look at the Western Province today.

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, the then hon. Minister of Education, Mr Michael Kaingu, announced that there would be a project in the name of King Lewanika University that would be built for K200 million. Today, King Lewanika University is just a site. It is a bush and we do not have a university.

Madam, when we look at issues to do with the Cashew Nut Project, the World Bank has spent over US$55 million on the project. If you ask the hon. Members here from the Western Province to look for cashew nuts in their constituencies, they are not there.

Madam Chairperson, the provincial hon. Minister will really need to engage the hon. Minister of Agriculture and hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock to address the agriculture and livestock issues in the Western Province. When we look at contagious bovine pleural pneumonia (CBPP), it is a very big problem. We share a border with Angola and there is no proper disease surveillance and clearance of animal corridors. We also have foot and mouth disease (FMD). Each time FMD breaks out in this country, it starts in the Western Province. When you look at how much pasture and plains we have in the Western Province, we should have so many healthy cattle, but look at the situation that we stand at today.

Madam Chairperson, there are farming blocks that are not serviced. We have the Kalumwange in Kaoma, Lombelombe in Nkeyema and Dongwe in Lukulu.

Madam Chairperson, if we were to enumerate the problems that the Western Province has, I think it would be disastrous. In summary, therefore, in supporting the budget, we urge New Dawn Government to summon its conscience into changing the narrative for the Western Province. Can you imagine that in the whole Budget, there is no allocation for the road from Lusaka to the Western Province. The road is a disaster and it is not there in this Budget. Therefore, it is very important that this is addressed and if possible, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can consider this.

Madam Chairperson, in wanting to have other hon. Members to debate, let me give four minutes, as bonus, to one of the hon. Members from the Western Province.

I thank you very much, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

MsSefulo (Mwandi): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing the people of Mwandi to add their voice to the debate regarding the Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, let me say that as the General was speaking about the situation regarding the road network in the Western Province, I was short of just shedding tears because when you speak about the Western Province, the road network is so poor. Let me say here that when I start off to go to Mwandi, I get scared of going to my constituency because the road network is so poor.

Madam, we have cried over and over again about this matter. The people of the Western Province have cried that this road is literally a death trap. Surviving that road is just like going to hell. It is not just the road that is from Kazungula to Sesheke but the whole road network in the Western Province. It is a sorry sight.

Madam Chairperson, for the Western Province to move from being the richest province at the time that Zambia got independent to being the poorest is because we have been neglected. We have been patient, Government after Government. The New Dawn should see an opportunity in this for them to be able to deliver. The people of the Western Province stood with the New Dawn through thick and thin. It is time for them to see an opportunity to wipe the tears off our faces because we have cried over and over again. The province is a sorry sight.

Madam Chairperson, when we speak about the whole Western Province education wise, it is a sorry sight. Today as I stand here, Mwandi Constituency, where I come from, has the highest teenage pregnancies because of us being neglected. Access to education has been a challenge, despite the Western Province recording the first secondary school in the country. You go to Western Province, it is a sorry sight.

Madam Chairperson, the Western Province it is a sorry sight. For you to make a call, you still have to climb a tree. There is zero network coverage. In Mitete, there is nothing. In Mwandi, there is nothing. Do you expect those children to pass when they have no access to the internet? Can they compete with the children who are growing up in Lusaka? Can they compete with children from where Hon. Fube is coming from, the one who spoke about unprecedented development? Our children stand no chance.

Madam Chairperson, it is time for the New Dawn Government to hear our cries. Let me now talk about hospitals in our province. Wherever you go, our hospitals are in a very dilapidated state. In the Western Province, our hospitals are run by missionaries. We need support from the Government to make sure that our hospitals can be taken care of. When we speak about the past, without being political, we do not want to suffer the neglect that we suffered when these people were in power (pointing at the hon. Independent Members). I urge the the New Dawn Government to, please, see an opportunity in this and make sure that it rectifies the challenges that we have in the Western Province.

The Chairperson: Ms Sefulo, you are pointing at the Independents. Where they in power? I do not know.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam.

Interruptions

Ms Sefulo: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw my pointing and now point in this direction (pointing at the PF bench).

Hon. Independent Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Ms Sefulo: Madam Chairperson, let me talk about airport facilities in our province. Those who have gone to the Western Province, kihakuna, know that there are no airport facilities. There is nothing. This is a rich province. We have Liuwa, one of the constituencies that has the largest wildebeest migration in the whole world. There is nothing to talk about with regards to airport facilities in the Western Province. Then I wonder what is it that we have done? What is it that the people of the Western Province have done to deserve this kind of treatment over and over again?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about access to water. Despite the Western Province housing 30 per cent …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Take a sip of water.

Ms Sefulo: …of the natural waters, access to water is a disaster, for lack of a better term. Let me give a practical example of something that I have spoken about over and over in this House. In Mwandi where I come from, children are still drinking salty water that was confirmed by the University of Zambia to be unfit for human consumption.

Mr Mabenga: Even for cattle.

Ms Sefulo; We are killing them. We cannot keep cattle. Our children are drinking salty water. There is an opportunity for the New Dawn Government to make sure that these things are rectified.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: Madam Chairperson I move to rural electrification. In the Western Province, we have electricity poles erected throughout my constituency going to Mulobezi. A hospital which is just under the electricity poles has no access to electricity. Our children are still suffering.

Mr Kangombe: Imagine!

Ms Sefulo: We have been marked for failure.

Madam Chairperson, as we are looking at this budget, let us see the opportunity as the New Dawn, let us learn lessons where our predecessors failed, so that we can score.

Hon. PF Member interjected.

Ms Sefulo: Yes, you failed us.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

The Chairperson: Order hon. Member!

Please, just concentrate on the Vote for the Western Province.

Ms Sefulo: Madam Chairperson, like I have said, we have been failed before, but we are looking forward to this Government wiping our tears away. There is nothing to talk about in the Western Province. The only thing people know about the Western Province is sand; that it is very sandy. We are requesting to have the Western Province also explored for minerals.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sefulo: There is no way we cannot know what we have. For me, I feel that the Western Province is extremely rich. Let them go and do the exploration in the Western Province. We want to know exactly what we have. Fifty-eight years after independence, there is no exploration that has been done.

Madam Chairperson, with a heavy and sad heart, I submit.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chewe: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: There was a ruling that we would not take any more points of order. I do not know if the hon. Member was in the House when that ruling was made.

Hon. Member: He was sleeping.

The Chairperson: May the hon. Minister for the Western Province wind up debate.

Hon. Members: There are still some minutes remaining to debate the Vote for the province.

Th e Chairperson: Which two minutes?

Mr Wamunyima: I spared four minutes.

Laughter

The Chairperson: In fact, the hon. Member exhausted the minutes.

Hon. Members: No!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, let us not complicate the system because you are the same people who will come and say I allowed four people to debate this Vote instead of three.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kangombe, I am very sorry that we cannot allow you to debate due to lack of time. I did that deliberately because you are next Mwandi. We thought most of the issues that are happening in Mwandi are also happening in Sesheke. We are sorry for that.

Hon. Minister for the Western Province, wind up debate.

The Minister for the Western Province (Mr Mbangweta): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to respond to the complaints and concerns raised by my colleagues. Instead of responding to them individually, I am going to read my prepared script which addresses some of the concerns, but we are most grateful to receive feedback in the context of what has happened.

First of all, Madam Chairperson, I would like to say that there was a comment which was made, I might add in bad taste, that our expo was equivalent to an agriculture show. I want to say that that comment was very offensive and we did not appreciate it. Secondly, I want to say there were a number of deals which came out of the expo, including the building of 300 houses in Mongu. We think that is very important. Thirdly, we had an agreement signed between the National Savings and Credit Bank and CAMCO for equipment in the farming blocks which are coming. We think that will favour and facilitate the work of our farmers.

Now, Madam Chairperson, coming to my prepared script, I would like say thank you very much to the line ministries which have, during the previous year, which is this one, supported us in various shapes and form. Firstly, to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and his colleagues for making sure that the Budget was fully funded, as a result various programmes were done.

Furthermore, Madam Chairperson, we want to thank the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development for making sure that the Kafue Hook Bridge, which was a disaster in waiting, is completed and we are dusting it this month as well as the Mongu/Limulunga Road, which we are also dusting this month. For the Tateyoyo to Katunda junction on the Lusaka/Mongu Road, a consultant has been engaged to undertake detailed designs and cost estimates to facilitate procurement of a contractor. So, when that is done, it should address that concern.

Madam Chairperson,we have, also, during the year, done spot improvement works going to Matebele/Shangombo. The senior hon. Member of Parliament who used to take 14hrs now takes 2 hours. So, we think we have done very well. We have also done spot works on the Simungoma/Mulobezi Road. It is easier now to facilitate movement.

Madam Chairperson,for the Sesheke/Livingstone Road, the approach is to do it through a Public Private Partnership (PPP). At the moment,the Government is only waiting for a concessionaire to attain financial closure. Once that is done, it will also be history.

Madam Chairperson,the Ministry of Fisheriesand Livestock have also attended to the disease burden. It has vaccinated 452,499 heads of cattle against the Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD). It has vaccinated 27,000 against anthrax.

Madam Chairperson,it has also started on the restocking programme. So far, we have received nine boran bulls, and we hope that this will facilitate the general species improvement.The treasury also released 4.5 million through the appropriation aid for forest protection and land administration. This funding enabled the province to collect a total amount of K23.2 million through forest licence fees, survey fees and ground rents.

Madam Chairperson, to increase agricultural production and, therefore, guarantee job creation, especially for the youth, the New Dawn Government is implementingthe development of farming blocks. Our flagship block is the Kalumwange Farm Block. In the new year, I will be going there with the hon. Minister of Agriculture and the hon. Minister Finance and National Planning to make sure that all these things are put to rest.

Madam Chairperson, in the area of tourism, we believe that tourism can spur job creation.This is why we are improving access to Liuwa by putting a bridge on the Luanginga River. The improvement of the Kalabo Airport also will be done.

Madam Chairperson, there has also been work done on the presentation of the Makono Royal Village in Kalabo to ensure that the history of our parents is not lost.

Madam Chairperson, the positive effect of the New Dawn Administration’s increased investment into education is also felt in the Western Province. We also we want to thank the hon. Minister of Agriculture because the Western Province, up until the New Dawn Government came into power was the least in numbers to access the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). The hon. Minister of Agriculture increased that number by 10, 000 beneficiaries.

Madam Chairperson, we also want to thank the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services. Again, the Western Province, in terms of the food security pack and social cash transfer, was very much below, but the numbers there have moved substantially.

Madam Chairperson, a key achievement for us goes to the hon. Minister of Health who has facilitated the first renal machine in the Western Province for Lewanika Hospital. It will be recalled that the Western Province was the only province with a dubious tag that it could not have a dialysis machine. However, the hon. Minister of Health has managed to acquire it, for which we are thankful.

Madam Chairperson, looking to the future, the Government is making strenuous efforts to find resources to make sure that the Lukulu/Katunda Road works can commence during the coming year.

Madam Chairperson, this coming year, the Government will put up a timber exchange in Sioma to make sure that the industry works well.

The Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock has made provisions for the regional veterinary laboratory in Mongu to be completed. Once that is done, the issue to do with cattle should be history.

There were issues of infrastructure relating to Libonda, Nalolo, Mitete secondary schools as well as Limulunga and the hospital at Limulunga District. Those will be worked on also in the coming year.

Madam Chairperson, the budget estimates for the coming year is K119,328,492 moving from K100.5 million. So, I ask my colleagues to support. It is our solemn duty to make sure that we right the wrongs of the past.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence and the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lufuma): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

The House adjournedat 1829hours until0900hours on Thursday, 15^thDecember, 2023.

___________

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