Friday, 2nd December, 2022

Friday, 2^nd December, 2022

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The House met at 0900 hours

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM SPEAKER

DIABETES AWARENESS CAMPAIGN

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the International Association of Lions Club District 413 – Zambia (Lions Club of Chudleigh) has been authorised to conduct a one-day free Diabetes Awareness Campaign as a way of commemorating the 2022 global campaign against diabetes.

The event will take place on Monday, 5^thDecember, 2022 at the main reception area, here at Parliament Main Buildings from 0900 to 1600 hours.

Interested hon. Members are encouraged to take advantage of this important event and acquire more information on diabetes.

I thank you.

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, let me give the House an indication of the business it will consider next week.

Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 6^th December, 2022, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter –

Interruptions

The Vice-President: I will not cough.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, thereafter, the House will consider the Second Reading stage of the following Bills:

(a) The Criminal Procedure Code (Amendment) Bill No. 24 of 2022; and

(b) The Penal Code (Amendment) Bill No. 25 of 2022.

Madam Speaker, then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads:

Head 80 – Ministry of Education;
Head 85 – Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources; and
Head 39 – Smart Zambia Institute

Madam Speaker, on Wednesday, 7^th December, 2022, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. Then the House will consider a Private Member’s Motion entitled “Recapitalise Mopani Copper Mines” to be moved by Mr P. Kalobo, Member of Parliament for Wusakile Parliamentary Constituency. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will consider the Second Reading stage of the following Bills:

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill No. 26 of 2022;
The Customs and Excise (Amendment) No. 27 of 2022;
The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill No. 28 of 2022;
The Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill No. 29 of 2022;
The Pension Scheme Regulation (Amendment) Bill No. 30 of 2022; and
The Mines and Minerals Development Act, 2015 (Amendment) Bill No. 31 of 2022.

Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads:

Head 44 – Ministry of Labour and Social Security; and
Head 86 – Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock

Madam Speaker, on Thursday, 8^th December, 2022, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads:

Head 88 – Muchinga Province;
Head 90 – Lusaka Province; and
Head 91 – Copperbelt Province.

Madam Speaker, on Friday, 9^th December, 2022, the Business of the House will start with The Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will deal with Questions for Oral Answer. The House will then consider presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads:

Head 92 – Central Province;
Head 93 – Northern Province; and
Head 94 – Western Province.

Madam Speaker, on this day, I intend to move a motion to suspend relevant Standing Orders to enable the House to start sitting in the morning in order to create additional time to transact all the business before it, and in particular, pass the 2023 National Budget, and thereafter adjourn sine die on Friday, 16^th December, 2022.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

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THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, disposal of State assets is provided for under Article 210(2) and (3) of the republican Constitution. It provides that the disposal of State assets shall be subject to approval of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, whist addressing judges recently, mentioned that the Government was finalising the sale of the presidential jet, the Gulfstream G650.

Madam Speaker, this morning, we woke up to screaming headlines in the News Diggers newspaper about the disposal of shares in Kansanshi Copper Mine. The law, under Article 210, is very clear that disposal of major State assets should be subject to approval of Parliament. Clearly, these two transactions have not been presented before the Floor of this House.

Madam Speaker, why is the Government proceeding with these two transactions acting outside the law, instead of bringing them for approval of Parliament?

The Vice-President (Mrs Nalumango): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mporokoso and Leader of the Opposition for this question, which is very important for the nation to fully understand and appreciate what the New Dawn Government is doing.

Madam Speaker, I will only say that because of the importance of this matter, I can give my understanding, but that is not enough. We will come to the House and issue a statement, and it is my hope that the people of Zambia and the hon. Member will be very happy with the statement we will issue. Allow us to issue a full statement so that justice is done. Like the hon. Member said, I, too, saw the screaming headline. I know something, but we will issue a ministerial statement on this matter. It is very important.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Good morning, Your Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, I want to find out if the reports that the Central Bank has been releasing Dollars into the economy to support the artificial strengthening of the Kwacha are true. If they are true, how prudent and sustainable is this?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nalolo who said that the Central Bank is trying to mitigate inflation, the exchange rate, and so on and so forth, by releasing money, and good morning.

Madam Speaker, yes, that is true. This is happening and I am told that it is a normal practice. However, we are still very safe when it comes to the reserves. We are okay, but the bank is releasing money.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Your Honour the Vice-President, good morning.

Madam Speaker, in 2018, 2019 and 2020, under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, we used to see a number of containerised trucks moving from the north to the south almost every week, escorted by the Zambia National Service (ZNS). When we would ask, our colleagues who were here then would tell us that those trucks were carrying Mukula from either the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) or Tanzania. What has happened now? What has changed? We do not see these trucks passing through this country. Maybe, the PF Government was cutting the trees within Zambia but under the pretext that the trees were coming from the DRC or Tanzania.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Moomba, and good morning. He said that from 2018 to 2020, trucks of Mukula were moving from the north to the south and he asked whether the Mukula was from Zambia or it was foreign as claimed then, and what has happened now as those trucks are not being seen.

Madam Speaker, it could have been, and I am using the words, “it could have been” a combination of both. However, I can attest that when the New Dawn Government came into power, it realised that there was confusion in the industry and that is why it suspended the cutting down of Mukula until sanity is brought back in the industry.

Madam Speaker, we all need to benefit from the Mukula and we are working on that. Indeed, with the ban in place, you cannot expect Mukula to continuously flow from the north to the south or from wherever it was coming from. In Zambia, there is a ban. We are working hard to ensure that there is sanity in the industry, people participate with care or understand that there is climate change and that they get the right value from Mukula. So, we are working on that. There is a ban and there is no way the flow could continue. We are trying to strictly ensure that people observe the ban.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Good morning, Your Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, when I first asked Her Honour the Vice-President a question on the cost of living, she introduced what the laymen out there are calling “Nalumangonomics Economic Theory” that states that it must go up in order for it to come down. She gave an example that if you are coming from Chelstone, going to Northmead, you first go to town and then you come to Northmead.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Just ask the question. Time is running out.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Speaker, the cost of living keeps skyrocketing and it is not coming down to Northmead as Her Honour the Vice-President said. It is almost going to Mumbwa. What is the Government doing to mitigate the suffering of the Zambian people, bearing in mind the cost of living and the increase in prices of petroleum products almost every month, which is affecting every citizen in Zambia?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Pambashe for his question. One day, the theory will be a reality and he will refer to it in his academic paper.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the truth of the matter is that the prices of commodities will always go up and down. When do we get worried? What do you call “high inflation?” I think I have spoken about this before. It is the speed at which the prices start going up. Today, hon. Member, whether we like it or not, the price of fuel is up and down. You cannot say it is constantly up. Yes, at the end of the day, it seems to be going up. I wish I were at the source to control the price of fuel. This is an international matter, hon. Colleagues. Hon. Member for Kalulushi, this is the truth.

Madam Speaker, regarding the cost of fuel, almost every nation is grappling with how to handle this issue. Zambia is not an island. In view of this situation, the reality is that all of us are going through the same thing. However, the Government will continue ensuring that it gets the best deal out of what it is doing. We are continuously talking to Oil Marketing Companies (OMCs) to see how we can stabilise the prices. However, to say that the fuel prices go up all the time is not correct. Some months the price of fuel comes down.

Madam Speaker, I think people wait to ask these questions so I went looking for information. The cost of living, according to the Jesuit Centre for Theological Reflection (JCTR), has gone up. For example, last month in Lusaka, it went up, but where the hon. Member comes from, in Mansa and Luapula, and many other places, it went down. So, it is up and down.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, when Luanshya Copper Mines was sold to the investor, the Government retained some assets which were not in the purchase and sale agreement. Some of these assets were placed under the Office of the Administrator-General.

Madam Speaker, there are some assets in Luanshya, in Roan Constituency, whose value, if the Government had to sale, could pay off debts that were left by the liquidated Roan Antelope Mining Corporation of Zambia (RAMCOZ). Some of the assets are the three tailings dams, which are said to have a high value.

Madam Speaker, when is the Government going to sell these assets so that the Administrator-General can pay off debts from former miners, suppliers of services, and contracts to the formerly liquidated company?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I hear the hon. Member. It is important. However, being here, I honestly do not have full information for me to agree with him. It is a good proposal. I can only commit that when I get more information as to what assets are under the Administrator-General, we will do the assessment. At the moment, I really cannot give him the answer.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Halwiindi (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, the people of Kabwe Central are very happy that the Government has come up with the Free Education Policy that is benefitting our children. It is written that everyone will be judged with their own sins.

Madam Speaker, the results of our children who wrote General Certificate of Education (GCE) examinations were withheld because of the few who were caught engaging in examination malpractices. Our children who genuinely wrote the examinations without being involved in malpractices are crying because their results have been with held too. This is the season where we have seen many advertisements for recruitment but then the children with results withheld are disadvantaged because they cannot participate. Most who write GCE examinations are almost over age, going beyond twenty-five years. So, they are being disadvantaged. They have sent a message to Her Honour the Vice President asking if the Government has any plans to help those who were not involved in examinations malpractice so that their results can be released.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwe Central for appreciating free education. The concern by the hon. Member is of the withheld results for those who wrote the General Certificate of Education (GCE) examinations without being involved in examination malpractice. The hon. Member is saying that punishment should only go to those who were involved in examination malpractice.

Madam Speaker, I think the Government must verify with the authorities to see who was involved in examination malpractice and how rampant it was. Definitely, I agree with the hon. Member that if somebody is innocent, they cannot punished with others. If it was so rampant, probably, an opinion should be looked for. However, that is something that we need to verify and know which answers to give to the public.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, most obliged and good morning to the Her Honour the Vice-President. My question is a rider to the question my dear hon. Colleague from Sikongo posed last week on national unity.

Madam Speaker, the country has been a united Republic since 1964. Last week, there was a letter which was widely circulated and purported to the have been written by a group called Linyunga Ndambo of the Western Province to the President. After that, we heard public pronouncements from eminent citizens, one of them being a former hon. Minister, calling on the President to act on the issue regarding the Barotseland Agreement.

Madam Speaker, may we know, through Her Honour the Vice-President, what the Government’s position is regarding the claim by the group that there could have been some arrangement and commitment from her Government to deal with the matter in a certain way.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the issue is on a letter that was circulating and I believe it is on social media. Social media is full of things. However, as to which promises were made, I do not think I would stand and give an answer to that. I know that people, including our Late President, Mr Sata, have made promises to deal with the Barotseland Agreement. We are also studying the issue. We are a new Government and we want to study it. However, one thing we are today is that of being a united country. We are ‘One Zambia, One Nation’. That is what we are, as country today. Nothing has changed. If anything will change, I have said, it is under study.

Mr Simushi (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, it is now very clear that the New Dawn Administration has come to deliver where all previous administrations failed. In this regard, let me speak to the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) that has been increased from K1.6 million toK25.7 million, next year. Unfortunately, we have seen hon. Members of Parliament, especially those from the Patriotic Front (PF) with the exception of my good Hon. Sunday Chanda who is trying to trivialise –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, ask your question.

Mr Simushi: Madam Speaker, thank you for your guidance. What message does the Government have to hon. Members of Parliament who are trying to trivialise the CDF which has an amount that is supposed to bring the much-needed development, especially to the rural constituencies of the country. What message does she have for them and their constituents?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the Government has delivered on many promises it made. Our manifesto is a written document and people can check it out. There is commitment for us to deliver according to the promises that we made to the people and one of them was on the CDF. The CDF is a flagship programme of the Government in decentralising the delivery of services to the people. Therefore, it is extremely unfortunate for any hon. Member of Parliament to trivialise the issue of the CDF. It is an opportunity for us to do things in our constituencies to uplift the livelihood of our people. So, this must be appreciated just as we should appreciate, for example, the issue of free education raised by the hon. Member of Kabwe Central.

Madam Speaker, it is a fact that today, looking at the Budget, there is an increase on almost every Vote. When we go to institutions, we will find that grants are being given and on time, and we appreciate that.

Madam Speaker, I think that this Government is working. I can go through the list, but this is not the time, except to say that we should trivialise these issues. Your hon. Members should not trivialise CDF. It is an important programme that should bring development. Next year, we would not want to go to any constituency and find a clinic that does not have reticulated water.

Mr Mung’andu: The technocrats.

The Vice-President: Madam, hon. Members are policy makers. Why do they want to be in the CDF committees if they are not going to do anything? They are the ones who are carrying the burdens of the people and they instruct the technocrats what to do. So, we expect that there will be water in every constituency next year. We will improve on sanitation using CDF. Let us prioritise implementation of CDF projects, hon. Colleagues. We should not use CDF as a political issue, whereby you share a little something here and there, so that people can say you did something. At the end of our five years, if we use our CDF properly, I can tell you that this entire House can come back.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, let us pay attention to both the questions and answers. There is a lot of talking and you are engaging in discussions across the Floor of the House. That is not allowed.

Ms Mulenga (Kalulushi): Madam Speaker, thank you and I say good morning to Her Honour the Vice-President. I rarely stand to ask questions, but when I do, it means the issue is very cardinal and compelling.

Madam Speaker, a month and half ago, I came to the Floor of this House to ask Her Honour the Vice-President, and the hon. Minister thorough her, what will happen to Chambeshi Metals and the dumpsite. Her answer was, “We shall respond accordingly in the shortest period of time”.

Madam Speaker, the poverty in the constituency of Kalulushi is escalating and the theft levels are alarming. This is why –

Mr Mbao interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I have already guided, and I do not want to make anyone an example. So, please refrain from that.

Hon. Member, proceed.

Mr Mulenga: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your protection.

Madam Speaker, the levels of poverty in Kalulushi are alarming. The people of Chambeshi are only having electricity once a week. There is a lot of vandalism that is going on because people are unemployed. The cost of living is high. For example, in Kafue Ward, which is one of the biggest wards, we have not had running water for the last one year. Your people have not planted. They are planting –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kalulushi, please, ask your question. Do not debate, but just ask your question.

Interruptions

Ms Mulenga: I am coming to that. Just keep quiet. You are probably experiencing the same thing in your constituencies.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, do not engage other hon. Members. Just ask the question.

Mr Mulenga: Madam Speaker, I want Her Honour the Vice-President to come to the people of Kalulushi, not with these noisemakers who are probably experiencing the same thing we are experiencing, to get on the ground –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, as we ask questions, let us not attract adverse comments from our fellow hon. Members.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kalulushi, ask your question.

Ms Mulenga: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, my question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: When are you, as Leader of Government Business in the House and a mother, going to visit the people of Kalulushi to find out what is pertaining on the ground, than getting messages of fimbaupoke, mulenya mulelapila?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: What does that mean? What was that all about?

Mr Mulenga: Madam Speaker, fimbaupoke, mulenya mulelapila is a slogan that is used when questions are asked why the people of Zambia are suffering, particularly the people of Kalulushi. It means ‘you shall blow up and you will die and we do not care about you’.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

At least Her Honour the Vice-President understands those words better. So, I am sure she will be able to react.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Kalulushi and say good morning.

Madam Speaker, yes, I remember that she did ask a question about the poverty in her area, but it was more about the re-opening of the Chambeshi Mine. I think my response then was that talks were going on. When talks are going on, it is not a one-day thing.

Madam, our economy had really gone under and we have challenges. That is true. Let us not pretend. I know sometimes when you are in a position like where I am standing now; that of Vice-President, if I am not careful, I can trivialise what the hon. Members are talking about, including poverty. This is what happened, and that is why we saw people doing certain things. It is because many hon. Colleagues do not understand the extent of the destruction of our economy in the last ten years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: You can raise a point of order if you want (pointing at Mr Kampyongo).

Mr Kampyongo indicated dissent.

The Vice-President: Madam, what I am saying is the truth. When I say this, I could be wrong, but very sincere. The issue of Chambeshi and the problems there are not new, but we just come in and you want us to find solutions or quick fixes? Yes, we are going to fix, whether it is the Konkola Copper Mine (KCM), Mopani Mine or Chambeshi Mine, but give us space. We do understand that it is not everybody in the country who is probably having three meals a day, but we have to work together and use every bit of resource that we have for the good of our people.

Madam Speaker, today, if I ask the hon. Member for Kalulushi and say, “What are you doing about improving the livelihoods of these poor people? What have you done as an hon. Member of Parliament?” I am seriously asking what she has done. I wish we could have a conversation even away from here because she can uplift the livelihoods of at least fifty households there with the power in her hands. So, let us care about the people.

Madam, we are careful and the talks are going on, but should the hon. Member come here and report in the House that there is no water in this place when she has –

Mr Kangombe: She bought a bus!

Ms Mulenga interjected.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Please, let us allow Her Honour the Vice-President to answer the question. If we are all talking, from both sides actually, we will not be able to hear what Her Honour the Vice-President is saying. Please, let us remain quiet and listen.

Her Honour the Vice-President may continue.

The Vice-President: Madam, on the issue of water which the hon. Member referred to, I can stand here and say it is a disaster. This is not just in Chambeshi. You find the same situation when you go to Nkana or Luanshya.

Mr B. Mpundu: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Let us admit and because of this, we are taking it very seriously. You did hear me when I said, “Please, use CDF in your constituencies”. You can even do off-grid projects. We can drill as many boreholes as possible. Let us take this as a matter of life and death. I know we have competing needs, but water supply is a disaster today.

You can, if you like, go to Kabushi. I am talking about places where I have been and seen with my eyes. You can go to Kwacha, Bulangililo and Ipusukilo. Let us not sit back.

Madam Speaker, was it yesterday or the other day when the House approved the budget for the Ministry of Water Development and Sanitation? I think hon. Members have seen the budget. We have to work on this matter. It is a disaster. However, it is not something we are going to say will be fixed tomorrow. All of us must pay attention to it because it involves health and, literally, development. You cannot talk of development when people are living in sewer for a long time due to burst pipes. It is a very emotive matter, my hon. Colleagues. It is very painful, but this Government will do the best it can.

Madam Speaker, let us admit that maybe, we were overlooking the issue of water and sanitation. It is critical, and this Government is taking it very seriously. That is why we are saying that let us put a bit of what is in our hands into it. The Government will do the best it can to improve water reticulation and sanitation for our country and our people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutinta (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving an opportunity to the people of Itezhi-tezhi to ask the Vice-President a question.

Madam Speaker, I agree with Her Honour the Vice-President that we are now at a point where there is seriously massive development across the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutinta: This week, the President is on record sounding warning shots to civil servants who are frustrating the much-desired development which is taking place across the country and which I can describe as the industrial revolution of today.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mutinta: Hon. Members in this House, on several occasions, have called on civil servants that are implementing projects to be at the same speed with the President. That means that the President has been vindicated by calls that have been coming from hon. Members –

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Time is running out. Ask your question.

Mr Mutinta: My question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: What is her advice to civil servants who are delaying development in this country, especially that hon. Members of Parliament have now been vindicated. The President cautioned civil servants this week. What is her advice?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member, but like you say, sometimes, you feel like you are talking to yourself.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

If you are not going to listen, I am going to curtail this session. So, please, let this be the last warning.

May Her Honour the Vice-President continue.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question he asks which he premises on what he sees. He says, ‘What is your advice to civil servants?’

Madam Speaker, a civil servant is a public worker and civil service runs in perpetuity. A civil servant, therefore, must train him/herself that he/she works for the Government and with politicians whose policies he/she implements. With a stable Civil Service, we can see development.

Madam Speaker, in this House, I have said that in the Civil Service, one has to align. However, the danger to over politicise the Civil Service must be avoided because the Civil Service runs in perpetuity. When another Government comes in, the Civil Service must change in accordance with what that Government wants to achieve. So, to the civil servants I say –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members for Matero, Bwacha and Kalulushi, please, let us pay attention. If you want to consult, do it quietly or walk out to go and do so.

May Her Honour the Vice-President continue.

The Vice-President: Civil servants out there are very important in the development agenda.

Madam Speaker, I went to some district where I said what I will say again: “A civil servant is one who is able to adjust. If, in your heart, you are United National Independence Party (UNIP) and followed UNIP policies during its time, do not keep the UNIP manifesto. It is gone. If you are Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and still want to hold on to the MMD Manifesto, you are in a wrong place. If you are PF and are still holding on to the PF Manifesto thinking – it is gone. Today, it is the UPND in power.”

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Let me say this: One does not have to be UPND, but one has to follow the manifesto and the work culture that is needed for the time so that the promises to the people are attained. Therefore, if you are a Civil Servant and you feel like you can fight, you cannot because the UPND has an agenda to bring development to the people and you are a part of it. You are very important as a civil servant. Stop fighting. If you were too slow in implementing programmes, please, change. We have a very limited time to deliver to the Zambian people. You may be there in perpetuity and, because of that, you feel relaxed. Every Government that comes, you frustrate. That is wrong. If we identify you, you are an enemy of the Zambian people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Do not cry foul. You have things to do. Do not mislead us by giving us wrong advice. So, civil servants, for us to develop, you must be careful. You must work carefully. You must do your part for the Zambian people and not be careless. You say ifwe twa liba fye permanent; ba kaya ba kesa. You even help change Governments because you entirely fail to perform and people say it is the party.

Madam Speaker, politicians in this House must be careful. What I am saying is for all of us. Civil servants must work hard, and according to the manifesto and plans of the Government in office.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simumba (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Nakonde this chance to ask Her Honour the Vice-President a question. Good morning to her.

Madam Speaker, 70 per cent of our population depends on farming for its livelihood. The United Party for National Development (UPND) in the Opposition then, made an undertaking to the Zambian people, especially farmers, that when it formed the Government, it would reduce the price of a bag of fertiliser to K250. At that time, a bag of fertiliser was at K700. As I speak, a bag of fertiliser now, in Nakonde, Isoka, Chinsali and many other rural constituencies, is at K1,150. The question to Her Honour the Vice-President is: When will the Government reduce the price of a bag of fertiliser to K250 so that the people of Nakonde can afford to buy it?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Nakonde for that question, and good morning to him.

Madam Speaker, yes, many people depend on farming. That is true. I think we should understand, but I do not know why we like to add politics to what we want to do. I, personally, may not remember certain things hon. Members pronounce.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

The Vice-President: That is true.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: We are still giving out inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). It is a programme that is controlled by the Government.

The pricing of fertiliser is deregulated. Maybe, some of those selling fertiliser are just smuggling it from Nakonde to other places. Now, is that K1,100 the price of fertiliser countrywide? Is that the cost of fertiliser in Shiwang’andu?

Mr Kampyongo: Yes!

Laughter

The Vice-President: Ah!

The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu knows that it is not true. We should not exaggerate things because we will even make those who are selling fertiliser to start increasing the price thinking that people are buying at K1,100. Let us say the truth. Truth must be truth, no matter where it is coming from. It must be truth.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: In Monze it is at K650.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, in Monze, fertiliser is at K650 per bag. How can we have two worlds? Anyway, people are saying that in Monze, it is at K650 and in Shiwang’andu, it is at K1,100. I think we have to always find the truth because this is what will help people think. If they exaggerate or understate, it is not good.

Madam Speaker, the cost of fertiliser is not regulated. However, the cost of fertiliser that the Government buys for the people is regulated. I pray that the cost of fertiliser is not that much.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: There are two types of fertilisers. There is D compound and Urea. So, the prices vary depending on which one. I am sure the Government will provide the answer for that.

Hon. PF Members: How do you know, Madam Speaker?

Madam Speaker: I am also a farmer, so –

Laughter

Mr Mubika (Shang’ombo): Madam Speaker, last year, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government procured leaking condoms and expired drugs.

Interruptions

Hon. PF Members: When was that?

Mr Mubika: In 2020 and 2021. We all know what condoms do. Some families produced children whom they did not plan for. Others used expired drugs. What plans has Government got to help those people especially, in the Southern Province where many children were produced unplanned?

Laughter

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, what plans has the Government got to help those families be put on Social Cash Transfer? What form of compensation and plans has Government got for those people who procured those expired drugs?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, this is a very difficult question. However, if we have children who are born out of leaking condoms, we will make sure that this does not repeat itself. We must care for the people.

Hon. PF Member: It never happened!

The Vice-Preside: It never happened? Okay! If this happened, as we all heard, people should ...

Hon. PF Member: It never happened.

The Vice-President: ... not worry! I am speaking English, alright. What I am saying is that whoever found themselves using leaking condoms accidentally should not worry. The hon. Member has even mentioned one region that has victims. Maybe, the condoms were delivered there because sometime, those people were encouraged to have many children. Maybe, that was a good plan by some people. Hon. Members will remember that the people of the Southern Province were told to produce many children.

Madam Speaker, even though I do not really know how to handle this question, I can only state that the Government is concerned about every child that is born. We have programmes in the Government, which are under the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services in the country to make sure that every child is cared for in the first 1,000 days which are the most critical. Therefore, for every pregnant mother, we will progressively see how we will look after her using the programmes that we and our co-operating partners have.

Madam Speaker, all the children are seen to be very important because they are the future, regardless of whichever way they were born. Whether they were born through leaking condoms or deliberately, they are still children and the country will look after them. We are looking after them. Those who cannot afford anything will be supported through the Social Cash Transfer (SCT) and other Government programmes. However, the people of the Southern Province have many animals; they have milk; and they have happy children.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I thank you for an opportunity to interact with Her Honour the Vice-President, who is my mother. I want to ride on the question posed by the hon. Member of Parliament for Itezhi-tezhi, who established President Hakainde Hichilema’s complaint sometime this week, when he said that at the top, where Her Honour the Vice-President and all the hon. Ministers are, they are saying the right things but down there, the public workers are clogging the system such that the development that the President and his Government want to see is not happening.

Madam Speaker, right now, over 200 civil servants are at home on holding positions. The Government has put desirable people’s positions on hold. Why do they think those desirable people are clogging the system to avoid bringing development as it is being pronounced at a high level?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for Lunte for his question. Even though he is off side in the sense that the Vice-President’s Question Time is over, Madam Speaker has allowed me to respond to this question.

Madam Speaker, according to the statement that was made, we still believe that there are people who may not have been aligned properly with the policies of this Government, and may not be working according to the programme. That I agree. However, the hon. Member commented on the issue of the 200 workers who are on holding positions. Even though I do not even know the actual number, I wish to state that yes, there are people who are on holding positions. They are not fired but they are just on holding positions.

Madam Speaker, we have to look at what has happened with some ministries. We have to remember that we have aligned ministries. The alignment itself left out many people because the purpose was to make a smaller team. When a ministry like the Ministry of Guidance and Religious Affairs does not exist anymore, that means certain people may not be absorbed properly, in as far as gender is concerned. However, in this absorption of the civil servants, it is very import to know that the cream may quickly find space. When you have such, you are looking at the very best to continue and also see other positions that are needed.

Madam Speaker, there is another angle from which we can look at the issue of holding positions which every Government does. In the Foreign Service, many people are actually employed and not on contract. Those who are on contract will come and go but those who are employed, cannot just be thrown. They will end up being on holding positions. We have to continuously work and see how these people get absorbed into the system. These are just some of the reasons. Of course, some may have failed to perform. So, it is a combination of all sorts of reasons that have led to people being on holding positions, but I think they will find space.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Thank you very much. We can only take a number of hon. Members within the forty-five minutes. Today, we have improved. At least, fourteen hon. Members of Parliament asked questions.

We can make progress.

_______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

HYDROLOGY SITUATION AT THE KARIBA DAM

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to issue a ministerial statement on the hydrology situation at the Kariba Dam, and more importantly, the measures we are undertaking to mitigate the impact on power generation.

Madam Speaker, the Kariba Dam is the largest man-made reservoir in the world with a holding capacity of 181 billion cm³ of water. The Kariba reservoir supplies water to two underground hydropower stations with a capacity of 2,130 MW, that is:

the Kariba North Bank Hydro Power Station operated by ZESCO Limited on the Zambian side with an installed capacity of 1,080 MW; and
the Kariba South Bank Hydro Power Station operated by the Zimbabwe Power Corporation (ZPC) on the Zimbabwean side with an installed capacity of 1,050 MW.

Madam Speaker, in order to efficiently manage this iconic resource, the Governments of Zambia and Zimbabwe established the Zambezi River Authority (ZRA), whose mandate is to regulate and determine the quantum of water that is used by the two power utilities for electricity generation at the Kariba Complex. This function ensures that there is timely and equitable regulation of water utilisation at any given point.

Madam Speaker, the Kariba Lake is designed to operate between 475.5m and 488.5m of water above sea level for purposes of hydropower generation. The water allocation is done taking into account the need to sustain reservoir operations at Kariba.

Madam Speaker, in 2022, the ZRA allocated a combined total of 45 billion cm ³of water to ZESCO Limited and the ZPC for power generation at the Kariba Complex. The allocation was to be shared equally between ZESCO Limited and the ZPC, with each utility set to utilise22.5 billion of cm³ of water for respective power generation operations at Kariba in 2022.

Madam Speaker, in 2022, the lake’s water level has been decreasing steadily on account of low inflows from the main stream Zambezi River and its tributaries. Further, the situation has been worsened due to the over utilisation of water for sustained power generation which has resulted in low water levels at the lake. As of 28^th November, 2022, the water levels at Lake Kariba stood 476.09 m above sea level, representing only 4.1 per cent of usable water storage. The low water level situation in Lake Kariba threatens the power generation from both the Kariba North Bank Hydro Power Station on the Zambian side and the Kariba South Bank Hydro Power Stationon the Zimbabwean side. It is projected that if the current power generation and subsequent water utilisation continues, the remaining water for power generation at the Kariba Complex, also referred to as live storage, will not be sufficient for power generation from mid-December 2022.

Madam Speaker, against this background, there is a need to implement measures aimed at rationing the water in the lake in order to avoid a complete shutdown of electricity generation activities at the Kariba Complex. The proposed measures will be phased and revisited from time to time, over the next four months, in order to ensure security of electricity supply and mitigate the impact on the economy. These measures include:

A Directive by the ZRA

Madam Speaker, the ZRA has with immediate effect directed the ZPC to immediately ensure that power generation activities at the Kariba South Bank Hydro Power Station are reduced to a maximum of 300MW, while ZESCO Limited will reduce generation at the Kariba North Bank Hydro Power Station to a maximum of 800MW, until further review of the substantive hydrological outlook at Lake Kariba is undertaken.

Power Generation Optimisation

Madam Speaker, ZESCO Limited will optimise generation at all hydro power stations in Zambia that is, the Kafue Gorge Lower and Kafue Gorge Upper, Victoria Falls and small hydro power stations. It is expected that this will complement the generation from the Kariba Complex to mid-January 2023, when water inflows are expected to start improving.

Fast tracking Generation Projects and other Sources

Madam Speaker, the Government will fast track the development of generation projects in order to increase the robustness of the energy sector to adverse impacts of climate change. We shall also tap from existing generations, which are operated by private players with the view to optimise power dispatch to mitigate the impact of the reduced generation from the Kariba Complex. Additionally, should the situation warrant it, consideration shall be made to import power from the Southern African Power Pool (SAPP).

Diversification

Madam Speaker, we will scale up diversification of the electricity mix by accelerating the development of alternative green and renewable energy sources, including projects such as the Global Energy Transfer Feed in Tariff (GET FiT) Zambia Project, which has a bankable portfolio of six solar projects amounting to 120MW.

Load Management

Madam Speaker, ZESCO Limited will implement a load management regime aimed at rationing power generation at the Kariba Complex to avoid a complete shutdown. This will be done with the view to minimise the impact on key economic sectors as well as preservation of the integrity of generation units at the Kariba Complex. We anticipate that based on the water levels, this will translate into a load management regime starting on 15^th December, 2022, of up to six hours daily, until the water levels improve.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order pursuant to Standing Order No. 65 (b).

Madam Speaker, during The Vice-President’s Question Time, the hon. Member of Parliament for Sikongo asked a question on what the Government is doing about the hon. Members of Parliament trivialising the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). According to him, all of us, except one hon. Member of Parliament, have been trivialising the CDF.

Madam Speaker, let me give an example of Mpika. The 2022 CDF–

Madam Speaker: What is the point of order, hon. Member for Mpika?

Mr Kapyanga: That is what I am trying to raise, but I need to–

Madam Speaker: Go straight to the point. We have to manage our time.

Mr Kapyanga: Madam Speaker, he lied before this House. I need to state the facts.

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mpika! You are out of order.

Can we proceed.

Hon. Members are now free to ask question on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the hon. Minister of Energy.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned, in his statement, that the Government is optimising the generation of power in other plants away from Kariba and that the idea is to try and compensate for the loss of generation at Kariba. With that optimisation, is the Government still going ahead with their load management plan even after optimising generation at other sites?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, we are going to optimise this because there is already a shortfall in the generation. However, we have come up with measures to mitigate the situation such that we anticipate restarting Ndola Energy, which will feed about 105 MW into the system. Also, we will soon commission the last unit at the Kafue Gorge Lower Power Station, which will also bring about 150 MW. That is why there is this shortfall which will allow us to load manage, especially in residential areas, but I do not think industrial plants will be affected by the load management that we are going to undertake.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Chilufya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, during The Vice-President’s Question Time, the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi made an alarming statement abusing the –

Interruptions

Dr Chilufya: Sorry, the hon. Member for Shangombo –

Ms Mulenga: Sikongo.

Dr Chilufya: Shangombo! He made an alarming statement abusing the Vice-President’s Question Time to allege that the previous Government procured expired drugs and leaking condoms last year. There is no laboratory in Zambia or abroad that will attest to that.

Madam Speaker, to put the record straight, there has never been procurement of any expired drugs nor leaking condoms and no World Health Organisation (WHO) accredited laboratory locally or abroad is able to attest to the hon. Member’s claims. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Shangombo in order to mislead the nation and abuse the Floor of the House when he does not have any evidence?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Member for Shangombo must have been referring to the issues raised in the Auditor-General’s Report.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: There were some stories or allegations surrounding that issue, so, I do not know whether that information is correct or not. Maybe, he is speaking from the information he gathered on his own from the information that was going around. So, let us leave it at that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Madam Speaker: Do you have –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: I have made a ruling that there was information in the Auditor-General’s Report. There was a report alleging that some condoms that were leaking were distributed. I do not know whether that allegation has been proved and I am not aware whether the matter went to court. So, let us leave it at that.

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that the Government now has to go back to scaling up solar and finishing off the projects under GET FiT Zambia, which I know is a private investment. However, even though he is saying the Government is going to ring-fence industries and that they will not be affected, the fact of the matter is that our economy will be affected negatively because debt will be created, especially under the independent power producers, which we currently owe.

Madam, has there been a full impact assessment done between the Ministry of Energy and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning on how they will be able to mitigate the losses that will occur from the load management for six hours that he referred to? Bearing in mind as well that copper production, which is the backbone of our economy, will be affected, have there been any serious discussions between his ministry and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to assess the impact of this on our economy?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I have already indicated that industries will not be affected. The only category that will be affected is residential areas. Restarting the Ndola Energy Plant will cost ZESCO Limited something in the range of $5.2 million every month because we have to import Heavy Fuel Oil (HFO), a fuel that will be used in generation at the plant.

Madam, let me take this opportunity to inform this august House that we have inherited a very bad contract as regards Ndola Energy, where the Government offered to provide it with free fuel from Indeni Petroleum Refinery. However, Indeni Petroleum Refinery is not there anymore and now the Government now has to pay for the fuel that has to be used in this power plant, which is a very sad situation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Energy on the challenge the country is facing. He has reported to the nation that, effectively, load shedding is about to commence.

Hon. Government Member: Load management.

Mr Kang’ombe: Load shedding is about to commence. Even as I ask this follow-up question, I am aware that load shedding has an impact on the communities where our people live.

Madam Chairperson, in the hon. Minister’s response to the question raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kantanshi, he indicated that industries would not be affected. We have small and medium enterprises (SMEs)in residential areas. In Ndeke, my constituency, there are small SMEs that depend on power. What strategy has the ministry put in place to ensure that those who are running salons, barbershops and all those small businesses continue to survive, considering that there are other things that have happened in the economy that will affect our people, such as the high cost of fuel?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, businesses that are in residential areas will be affected, but this will be properly managed and a schedule will be published so that people can get ready when their area will be power managed.

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, on 28^th November, about four days ago, as a result of load management, we saw households in Mtendere and Hellen Kaunda losing many of their electrical appliances because of an overload when power was restored. As we start load management, what measures are being put in place to ensure that people’s property is protected?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, we have not started load management. The unfortunate incident that happened in Mtendere could have been as a result of a fault somewhere on the line. I doubt it was attributed to load management.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, clearly, Kariba North Bank Power Station has become problematic. A few years ago, we had a terrible power situation in this country which affected our economy because of the low water levels situation at the power station.

Madam Speaker, is the Government still contemplating the establishment of a nuclear plant considering that we have all the elements like thorium, polonium and radium that we need to establish such as plant? We have all the elements that we need on the soil of this country. Is the Government considering processes of establishing a nuclear plant so that we solve this problem in the long run once and for all?

MrKapala: Madam Speaker, let me be categorical about this one. Right now, the issue of nuclear production in this country is not on the table. What we want to do now is to accelerate the production or construction of power plants in the northern part of Zambia because these areas are not prone to droughts. So, we should bring on the Kalungweshi and the Luapula River power generation plants. That will mitigate a lot and there will be surplus power to sell to our neighbours. We are not contemplating using any nuclear material this time.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, the Kariba Dam has been affected by climate change. Now, that we are being encouraged to move to solar energy as we wait for water levels to rise, if and if it will rain.

Madam Speaker, what is the ministry doing to ensure the control on the quality of solar products coming into the country. We have seen that most of these solar products are not durable. I would like to find out what the ministry is doing to ensure that as Zambians move to this alternative, how it is supporting the control of the quality of solar products coming into the country.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, we have the Zambia Bureau of Standards (ZBS) which makes sure that the quality of solar elements that are coming into the country meet the required standards. The Energy Regulation Board (ERB) has also got set standards which are regulated by the ZBS. Unless, these things are being smuggled in, I do not see how any products that do not meet the required standard can be used in this country. I do not think that is likely to happen.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, indeed, the decision to get Ndola Energy Company Limited, get supplies of heavy fuel oil (HFO) to generate that 100 MW, was a deliberate decision by the Government to supplement the power supply to the Copperbelt.

Madam Speaker, Indeni Petroleum Refinery, like you confirmed, is no more. Load shedding is coming at a time when fuel prices are rising, which is beyond your control, understandably so. Where is Ndola Energy Company Limited going to source the heavy fuel that is required to continue generating that power you are referring to? This is supposed to be an alternative source to cushion the power consumption on the Copperbelt where we have industries that need to be preserved.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, as a result of the bad contract that was entered into between the previous Government and Ndola Energy Company Limited, we are going to ask Ndola Energy to import the Heavy Fuel Oil (HFO) as a fuel that will be used in the generation power. There is an increase in tariffs. Ndola Energy Company Limited is now going to demand 14 cents per KW/h, which is way above what Zesco Limited buys. Zesco Limited normally buys about 9 cents per KW/h. So, we are dealing with bad contracts and we are here to fix the problem and soon, we will be able to fix this problem.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, I am aware of the extensive works that have been done to the Kariba Dam. During the same process, there is a lot of water that is being drained. Seeing that there is a lot of water that is being lost during the same exercise of repairing the dam, what is the estimated completion period for the said works?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, we are anticipating that the rehabilitation works at the Kariba Dam should be done next year. There has been a delay due to geological formation that started allowing in water to seep in under the dam. So, that is what they are dealing with now. Immediately that problem is resolved, they should be able to quickly finish off all the other works that are outstanding.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtayachalo (Chama North): Madam Speaker, Zesco Limited exports power to some countries in the Southern African Power Pool, which includes Malawi. Malawi supplies power to Lundazi and Chama. Is Zesco Limited going to stop exports of power to the Southern African Power Pool?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, Zesco Limited will not, for now, stop exporting power. I am here to inform this august House on the amount of power that it is exporting.

Zesco Limited is currently exporting a total of about 431 MW. These are bilateral agreements. You do not just wake up in the night and say, I am going to cut off power. Further, let me quickly mention before I get a question from the Leader of the Opposition that these are non-binding whereby, we can sit and review the situation and review the contract so that if we have to stop exporting say to Malawi, it will have a very minimal impact on the power deficit. In fact, to Malawi, we are only sending 2 MW.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Madam Speaker, we have been through this route, especially in 2015 and the measures that the hon. Minister has stated have been mentioned before. Now, how does the ministry hope to progress with the implementation of diversified mixed power generation plants based on what has already been done for example, in the Lusaka Multi Facility Economy Zone (MFEZ) on the Ngonya and Bangweulu Solar Power Plants since it was idealy supposed to be extended outside Lusaka as well?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I am delighted to inform this august House that before the end of this month, Zesco Limited will sign a power purchase agreement with an American company to set up a 50 MW Solar Plant in Serenje. In addition to that, Zesco Limited will soon launch a 150 MW to three sites, each site having 50MW to sort of complement what is available now.

The Government is going to invest more into renewable energy. We have many projects that are on the pipeline, that should come on the stream before the end of next year. There is a wind enery project that will be set up in Katete. More solar plants will be set up in the country. In Nalolo, there is a 150 MW solar power plant that will be set up there. So, by next year, we should see an increase in the development of renewable energy sources.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister earlier stated that he wants to start importing power from the Southern African Power Pool (SAPP). However, SAPP has its own challenges. He knows that the biggest player is South Africa in that power pool, which has serious load management issues. Apart from SAPP, is there a plan ‘B’?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, there is a power deficit in the region. All the countries within our region are looking to Zambia for power. We have also looked at the possibility of importing power using a ship from Mozambique, as it happened last time. If we are to go that route, it will cost 45 cents per kW/h. It would be madness to do that. This is a Government that is prudent in how it utilises its resources. So, we are looking at a maximum of three months in which we should be able to …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I rise on this serious point of order pursuant to Standing Order 65 on Content of Speech.

Madam, we are following the hon. Minister’s responses. In his response to the follow-up question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati, who was seeking to know what other options he is considering, he referred to an undertaking of importing power from Mozambique from a Ship, which he might not avoid, as ‘madness’, which is unparliamentary.

Is the hon. Minister in order to breach the Standing Orders in that fashion when responding to very important questions that border on the livelihoods of our citizens?

I seek your serious guidance. We are a House of rules.

Madam Speaker: Now I am confused. When you brought in the word ‘madness’, I was wondering where the ‘madness’ was coming from.

Mr Kampyongo: He said it.

Madam Speaker: Oh! He said it? I did not hear that, but if the hon. Minister said that it was madness, the word is unparliamentary and he should withdraw it.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘madness’ and replace it with ‘abnormal’, if that is Parliamentary.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: It is a better word. Anyway, let us make progress. Was there a question? I believe the hon. Minister had finished answering.

Mr Kapala indicated dissent.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, we are looking at options that are available within the country because we cannot look SAPP when all the other countries are looking to Zambia for the supply of electricity. As I said, we just gave the worst case scenario that might happen. However, if lady luck smiles on us, we might not experience the six hours that we have mentioned and could be managing, maybe, about two hours per day and it could only last, maybe, up to end of February 2023. We came here to give the worst case scenario so that people do not get disappointed in the end that we lied to the nation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Speaker, it is sad that we are going into load management period or load shedding, in short. My question is: Is ZESCO Limited going to give adequate notice of the timetable for load shedding? If it is and the load shedding timetable is violated, is it prepared to compensate citizens?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, when ZESCO Limited sends out notices that an area will be shut off for maintenance for about two hours, for instance, it still cautions people to treat lines as live, just in case. So, I do not see why, when it publishes a schedule, but does not meet it, probably, due to a fault on a line, it should start thinking of compensating customers. I do not think that that is the ideal way of doing things.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The last question will come from the hon. Member for Chienge.

Rev. Katuta: Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to ask the hon. Minister of Energy a question.

Madam, maybe the hon. Minister answered while I was outside, but I just want to find out whether he has really considered people who are in rural areas, especially in Chienge. We have been having these challenges we are told are due to maintenance. Yes, in Chienge, we can be notified, but looking at the time, you see that load shedding takes place in the name of maintenance the time power is needed the most. How is the hon. Minister going to work this out because power goes off from morning until 2000 hours? When do people do business, especially now that we are in December? There is no fish, and they will be depending on small things like welding. So, I would like to find out how the hon. Minister is going to cater for people like those in Chienge, where we have been having load shedding from 0600 hour to 2000 hours.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I have no information to suggest that Chienge is being load managed for the period that the hon. Member for Chienge has mentioned. What I know is that ZESCO Limited is plugged with many maintenance issues as a result of the lack of resources for maintenance. Over the years, ZESCO Limited was neglected and it did not collect adequate funding to allow for serious maintenance. These are the effects of poor planning that we have inherited, and we are here to fix them. I can assure the hon. Member that once ZESCO Limited has turned around, she should be able to see proper service provided to the Zambian people.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 62 – (Ministry of Energy – K2,048,138,098).

Mr Mabumba (Mwense): Madam Chairperson, …

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

Mr Mabumba: Madam Chairperson, yesterday, what I was debating on was on the investment in the petroleum infrastructure sub-sector under the Ministry of Energy. In summarising the points that I had, I want to encourage the hon. Minister that while there are political commitments that were maybe, made during the United Party for National Development’s (UPND) campaign period, some of those, like the reduction in fuel prices, may not be realised today.

However, what are important are the reforms that the ministry is undertaking. That is the most important thing. If these reforms that are being undertaken are pointing to the fact that the fuel price at one particular time during the hon. Minister’s tenure of office is going to be reduced, the people of Zambia are probably going to be happy.

Madam Chairperson, therefore, the hon. Minister needs to provide leadership around the investment in the petroleum sub-sector. Even before these investments are done, it is important to review the fuel pricing cycle. I am sure the ministry can undertake basic research to ask the oil marketing companies (OMCs) and the Zambian citizens to what extent the monthly review of fuel prices is impacting on businesses and the cost of living. Like we heard people asking Her Honour the Vice-President during her question time, it is actually true that the cost of living is being impacted by the monthly reviews of fuel.

Madam Chairperson, if the exchange rate is stable, you do not need to be reviewing the fuel price every month. This is because what determines the fuel price is the exchange rate and international market prices. Over the last few months, the exchange rate was stable. It is just now that it is going up. However, it is important that the hon. Minister considers this. The ministry has people with talent and institutional memory who can do projections. They can project to what extent the market price is going to be in the next three months. They can also project the exchange rate during that period of time. To be very honest with the hon. Minister, the current scenario is impacting businesses and the lives of Zambians.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to comment further in terms of reviewing the future procurement and supply model. Yes, this can be done, but the question also goes back to investment in our storage facilities. If the Government is going to give this responsibility to the private sector and does not invest in storage facilities, the private sector wants maximisation of profit. Therefore, we need to have a back-up plan as a country and this should be the storage facilities where we can put our fuel.

Madam Chairperson, I just want to talk about the subject matter that was presented by the hon. Minister concerning electricity generation. Looking at the K913 million that has been provided, that money is not enough. However, this is where again, the hon. Minister needs to provide leadership in creating a conducive environment to attract the private sector. How do you then attract the private sector?

Madam Chairperson, the issue in this country has been about the cost reflective tariffs. The cost of service study has been completed. Therefore, it is important that the hon. Minister comes back to this august House to share with his hon. Colleagues how that cost of service study is going to impact future tariffs in attracting investment.

Madam Chairperson, there is need to ensure that our people are not given cost reflective tariffs simply because we have failed as a country for many years to do one particular thing; reform Zesco Limited. I heard the hon. Minister talking about the turnaround of Zesco Limited. Whether the hon. Minister likes it or not, the turnaround of Zesco Limited dependents on best practices. It needs to be unbundled. In that way, we will resolve the problem that this country has been having in terms of its electricity sub-sector. Everybody depends on Zesco Limited as one up-taker of power. This is why the hon. Minister is even complaining about some of those contracts which were signed. It is important that based on the new legislation, the independent power producers come and provide electricity to their customers, other than Zesco Limited having the whole burden.

Madam Chairperson, it is important that those reforms of the cost reflective tariffs are done based on the cost of service study. The hon. Minister needs to share that study with us here because even when you look at the Indeni Refinery and Tanzania-Zambia Mafuta pipeline as part of the reforms, the hon. Minister has not been here to share details with his hon. Colleagues. During this session, the time is very limited, but if he came with a ministerial statement, he is going to have the support of his hon. Colleagues.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson gave the Floor to Mr Hamwaata.

Mr Hamwaata was not in the House.

Mr Kangombe (Sesheke): Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning as well as the hon. Minister of Energy.

Madam Chairperson, from the outset, I want to say I support the Vote and I am happy that the New Dawn Administration has made milestones when it comes to the energy sector in continuation from where the previous Government had left.

Madam Chairperson, it is very important for the hon. Minister to inform the nation on the many issues that are affecting the energy sector, so that we can move together. Energy is the driving force of each and every country’s economy. When this sector faces turbulences, the effects are negatively impacting the lives of our people. It is worth noting that the petroleum sector is one that unfortunately we have no control over as a nation. It is important that the nation is well-informed that what has happened is due to external forces that unfortunately as a nation, we are unable to handle.

Madam Chairperson, I will give an example to the nation out there so that people can understand why many are saying the cost of living is high. For example, a business entity in Sesheke was buying commodities in Lusaka and paying K5,000 on transport when the price of petroleum or fuel was very low. Today, for the same transport that they used to pay K5,000, they are paying K10,000. Therefore, it is only normal that you expect the price of products to go a little bit higher. Unfortunately, all this is happening due to the external forces that I earlier on alluded to that, unfortunately, as a nation, we cannot cushion that. However, like my hon. Colleague, Mr Mabumba had stated, it is very important to utilise the institutional memory that we have in the establishment under the ministry to give projections so that the nation can be well-informed. You expect the cost of living to go a little bit up as the product prices are also going up.

Other than that, it is important that as a nation, we use mixed grid like solar energy which we can easily manage unlike depending on electricity. Let us have the mixed grid because then we will be assured that come rain, come sunshine, we will have the sun. The country, and the globe at large, is faced with the adverse impact of climate change and even the rain pattern has changed. Unlike the way it was in the past where the rainy season would start as early as August or October, things are now changing. So, we cannot project that we will have a lot of water in rivers and a heavy downfall that will in turn help us generate the much-needed energy.

Madam Chairperson, it is important that we bring many investors into the energy sector, especially in power generation so that we can have the mixed grid that as a nation, we will be able to maintain. Sesheke is one place in this country that has the highest level of radiation. Let us take advantage of such places so that we can utilise them to generate the much-needed solar energy to ensure that we supplement the power generation generated through hydro.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I support the Vote. I will not finish all my minutes so that I can allow other hon. Members to compliment this Vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Chairperson, I will debate on only two issues.

Madam Chairperson, I will start with rural electrification. The Government has increased its allocation from K300million to K700million and I appreciate that. That is a plus for a start, although I know the money is not sufficient for the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) to undertake activities everywhere. However, there is something I usually complain of. In the Eastern Province, there is a place which used to be called Petauke but it was divided into five sections, namely Nyimba, Msanzala, Lusangazi, Sinda and Petauke. Nyimba District is the biggest among them and it is deprived of power.

Madam Chairperson, hon. Members may wish to note that even in a small constituency or district for my brother, there are more households connected to power than in Nyimba District. Hon. Members may also wish to note that we are spending a lot of money trying to supplement people from Lusaka Province who go to the Eastern Province. As a province, we are using our own money to buy fuel for St Joseph Hospital, and a big number of people using this hospital come from Rufunsa and Feira constituencies, which are in Lusaka Province. Us, the owners, are a fraction of the people who use St. Joseph Hospital. However, these two constituencies that are in Lusaka Province have abundant power while, we, who are providing a service to the people in these constituencies, have nothing. I appeal to the REA and ZESCO Limited to connect more places in Nyimba to the national grid. We need power.

Madam Chairperson, I know that the hon. Minister, Mr Kapala, is trying by all possible means to see to it that we are connected to the national grid. He might have a heart to connect us to the national grid but the technocrats have their own challenges. However, Nyimba is the most affected among the districts that were created from the area that used to be called Petauke. Maybe, Nyimba is one of the least connected to the national grid countrywide. It is my prayer that with this budget of K700 million, surely, the ministry cannot fail to get K40 million or K30million to connect Kacholola and Nyimba to the national grid. Kacholola is even bigger than some districts in the hon. Member for Kaputa’s constituency and Hon. Chitotela’s constituency, and I know they cannot beat me. There are small districts in these constituencies compared to Kacholola, which is a compound in Nyimba District, but they have abundant power which is not being utilised.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Menyani Zulu: I did not talk about districts in consistencies of people who can beat me. I mentioned constituencies of people who cannot beat me. I left out other districts like Kawambwa.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member! Please, avoid those comparisons. The way you are putting it, it is like you are fighting.

You may continue.

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Chairperson, the confluence of Lukusashi and Lunsemfwa rivers is in Nyimba Constituency, and the water from Lunsemfwa and Lukusashi rivers is very clean. However, the water that goes into the Indian Ocean goes to waste. The water goes into Luangwa River and Zambezi River and eventually in the Indian Ocean, but it goes to waste. I have spoken to the hon. Minister about it and I will give him more details. The hon. Minister should look at this issue. I know it is a remote area and some people may not wish to go there but I have been there. The technocrats can hire a chopper and they can go there and find out what they can do. These rivers have water throughout the year and the ministry can surely do something than for us to be depending on Kariba Dam. We cannot continue depending on Kariba Dam. Everyone wants water from the Zambezi River. If the water in the Zambezi River finishes, we will have problems. So, let us look at other areas unlike depending on Kariba Dam. If we put up a dam at the confluence of the Lunsemfwa and Lukusashi rivers, I know that many things can happen.

Madam Chairperson, I will be failing in my duties if I do not tell the ministry and the people at ZESCO Limited and REA that many areas in Nyimba are not connected to the national grid, but I appreciate that Senior Lwembe’s Chiefdom has been connected to the national grid; that is a plus. However, there is no power in areas which are important like Offmare, where the Dutch Church originated from. The population there is more than that in some of the so-called districts. However, there is no power in Chifukusi and Chipanje. The people in these areas have the capacity to pay for the connection of power. The people from Nyimba are not lazy and they know how to use land but the biggest problem is that Government departments have let them down. My prayer is that in the 2023 Budget, there is a portion for Nyimba so that the people can realise that there are some people who are thinking about them. Each Government that comes and goes does not see us as people or as a district.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: I have a list from the Patriotic Front (PF).

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for permitting me a slot to make a few comments on this very important Vote on Energy.

Madam Chairperson, let me start with the fuel sub-sector. I appreciate the decision that the hon. Minister has taken of only dealing with finished fuel products. However, I think the hon. Minister needs to re-think this option through. There is empirical evidence, even at this institution, that can show that there are other alternatives that could have been helpful to the hon. Minister and the Government.

Madam Chairperson, at the expense of debating ourselves, there are some people in Cabinet, such as my hon. Colleague, the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, who served longest as Chairperson of the Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism. When you look at the reports that are still here at Parliament, you will see that there are options, especially on how we are going to proceed as a nation regarding Indeni Petroleum Refinery. Indeed, in its current shape, it has had many challenges. However, the institution, itself, and other stakeholders had options that were on the table. For example, there was an option of introducing a Hydrocracker, which was then going to ensure that we lessen the cost of refining commingled crude oil that Indeni Petroleum Refinery was dealing with.

Madam Chairperson, there were also proposals to introduce a Hydro Treater to lessen the sulphur in order for us to meet international standards. This option was the best, believe you me. You cannot sustain the economy using finished products. Why? With crude oil and proper storage facilities, we would be able to import crude oil for a period of four to five months such that even when there are shocks in the oil prices on the international market, we would be covered for that period. It gives predictable conditions both in the economy and for the people to plan properly. I say planning properly. Imagine what would happen if fuel prices go up this festive period after people having made their budgets? People would have to abandon their plans and businesses have to adjust. So, that does not give us a sustainable outlook of the performance of the economy.

Madam Chairperson, I suggest strongly that the hon. Minister re-thinks these options through. Like I have said, there is empirical evidence, even at this institution, through the reports that were done by your Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism.

Madam, the Tanzania Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) Pipeline, which is 1,700km long, was installed with support from the Italian Government at a huge cost. We had some refurbishment works done in order to accommodate the proposal I talked about of lessening the rate at which crude oil was to be pumped from Dar-es-Salaam to Ndola. I think seven Fiat pumps were replaced with Caterpillar pumps, at a huge cost, to try to make sure that we improve the efficiency. The pipeline was equally rehabilitated to lessen the leakages that were being recorded and the losses that were being incurred. So, all I am saying is that it is not too late to re-look that decision to sustain the two parastatal institutions by looking at the report that exists. We agonise with the Government because, indeed, finished products would fluctuate anytime.

Madam Chairperson, I appeal to the hon. Minister to reconsider the decision on Indeni Petroleum Refinery. He just talked about Ndola Energy Company where he said it will be importing Heavy Fuel Oil (HFO) and demanding about 14cent per kWh. How many businesses are able to afford power at that rate? It is not possible. The Government’s responsibility is to cushion its people through lessening the cost of production. This is one area where the Government can implement that. So, the dependence of Ndola Energy Company on Indeni Petroleum Refinery for the supply of HFO, for the production of 100 MW was sustainable. It may look as bad business, but it was for a purpose. It was there to cushion and help people’s lives to be sustained.

Madam Chairperson, however, I support the decision to increase hydro power generating facilities, especially in areas where rainfall is guaranteed every rainy season. It is a good way to go, but it is a long-term exercise. I want the hon. Minister to desist from thinking that he can never consider the issue of importing power from the ship. When you see the Government doing that, it means it had limited options.

Madam, the hon. Minister, who is sitting next to the hon. Minister of Energy, will share with him the agony that we went through to import power at a huge cost in order to sustain the mining industry and run other industries. We imported power at a high cost, but it was to be supplied at a lower cost because we had to make difficult decisions to sustain the economy. It may look like bad business, but that was the only option that was available at the time. So, the hon. Minister should not rule out such possibilities.

Madam Chairperson, Government has the responsibility to cushion people. Increment in fuel prices is going to impact people’s lives negatively. People will have to run generators in order to have power for small businesses such as barber shops and a few other small enterprises. So, it is important that when confronted with such situations, the Government does not abdicate its role of cushioning the people. The timings, obviously, are not good for anyone.

Madam Chairperson, I heard Hon. Kang’ombe talk about the cost of goods. That is inevitable. Where the price of fuel increases, you expect the price of goods and services to increase as well. How often do we increase people’s earnings, if I may ask? It may be civil servants. It is probably once a year. So, the people’s purchasing power is decreasing, but the cost of goods and services is increasing.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister has a responsibility to look after the people and he should not rule out options that might not be avoidable.

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Madam Chairperson, let me declare upfront that I do support the Vote and on behalf of the people of Mongu Central, I thank the hon. Minister for the budget. I note and appreciate the increase.

Madam Chairperson, I think we have done very well as a country, so far, in managing our energy and electricity. You just need to go across the border and see what stage five of load-shedding means. I know the pronouncements that have been made by the hon. Minister will just amount to load management not load shedding. So, I thank the hon. Minister for that. That is what happens when you have the right people in key positions. I think the changes that have been made at ZESCO Limited are paying dividends. We have a management at ZESCO Limited that has a bit of international exposure. They are experienced enough. We are able to enjoy the available electricity 90 per cent of the time. We have not experienced load shedding in Zambia for some time now.

Madam, going forward, I cognisant of the fact that we do not have control of oil prices on the international market. Since we are not oil producers, whatever happens on the international market impacts us negatively.

However, I want to appreciate the fact that the Government has adopted the strategy of reviewing the cost of fuel on a monthly basis. South Africa has always used that strategy for many years. It is a very good strategy because consumers always feel the immediate benefits when there is a positive change in the price of the commodity.

Madam Chairperson, since we do not produce oil and gas, I want to encourage the Government to invest more in exploration as it is doing in Nalolo in solar energy. I want to encourage the Government to invest more in the exploration of oil and gas especially in the Barotse plains. I think this Government is in a better position now to do such explorations. For the information of the hon. Minister, even among the hon. Members of Parliament, we have senior indunas of the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE), who can help to do the negotiations so that we start producing our own oil and gas. We can turn gas into many products including electricity, by the away. Such things could be done. We want to encourage the Government to invest more in that sector. That is the only way we can be able to take electricity to all the corners of this country.

Madam Chairperson, the programme by the Rural Electrification Authority (REA),can only be achieved when we invest more in rural schemes of producing energy, and that is what we need to do. We must run this economy on the basis that every home has adequate supply of energy. I think in this time and era, it is very important for every home to have adequate supply of energy. We must eliminate the use of charcoal. We can do that. Charcoal does not exist in some neighbouring countries. How have they done it? We can do it as well if we just put our heads together, as Hon. Kampyongo mentioned. There are many alternatives on the market. It just needs political will to ensure that we pursue such strategies.

Madam Chairperson, the rising global oil prices, especially at this moment when there is a war in Ukraine, will make it very difficult for a country like ours to achieve our developmental agenda. This is because the price of oil affects almost everything that we do, as Hon. Kangombe mentioned. It affects the cost of transport, food and everything else that we do. So, we must be smart enough. We are in the 21^st Century. So, we must do things in a very smart way.

Madam Chairperson, one of the areas we must look at is household utilities. That is the appliances that we use in our homes. We must have a programme that encourages appliances that use low energy to reduce on demand. The Government needs to embark on a programme to encourage our people to use appliances such as bulbs that consume less electricity. I think we have not done very well in sensitising people in that regard.

Madam, such programmes are for our benefit as consumers because we end up paying ZESCO Limited less, the bills reduce and we end up with more money in our pockets. So, I think as Government, we must be strategic and deliberate about running such programmes to encourage our people to use less energy for their own benefit after all.

Madam Chairperson, finally, yesterday was World AIDS Day. So, on behalf of the people of Mongu Central, I want to give support to all those living with the Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (AIDS) and those affected by it. I want to encourage hon. Members of Parliament to test as I did yesterday, but the results are private and personal. Let us test so that we can all live longer and manage ourselves.

Madam Chairperson, with those few words, I want to thank you for giving the people of Mongu Central a chance to debate.

I thank you, Madam.

Rev. Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing the voice of the people of Chienge to be heard on this very important budget line.

Madam Chairperson, we are a country that is so much dependent on hydropower when we have so much sand. We have sand in the Western Province, in Luapula Province and in other provinces. We also have many graduates that this country sent to China and Russia to go and study Electrical Engineering. They come back to Zambia with good and brilliant ideas, like one young man I know, Boniface Zulu, who even suggested to the previous Government to help in the innovative production of solar power. Recently, I saw him in the newspapers talking about how we can start producing our own solar power. Electrical Engineers understand what I am talking about. We have plenty of sand to make solar panels. We need sand and a few things to make solar panels instead of us depending on hydropower. We have everything at our disposal.

Interruptions

Rev. Katuta: I have heard somebody saying “copper”, or something like that.

Madam Chairperson, we have everything at our disposal. Why should we continue to bring other countries to build our hydropower stations instead of asking for money to invest in the graduates who have come back to the country? Let us employ them and let them start manufacturing solar panels. We would not even have load shedding or load maintenance. It is important that the New Dawn Government calls upon all graduates who went to study in Russia and China, and are capable of inventing the manufacturing of green energy.

Madam, when we talk about power, it is as if we just focus on electricity. There is a certain professor around ten miles area, who can produce diesel, but we are yet to hear him discussed even in the House. Those are the people the Government should take keen interest in. The Government can borrow money and invest in such people. Those are the people we should encourage to form co-operatives. We have too many graduates in Zambia who are doing nothing. They are not being used the way they are supposed to be used. I think it would be very important to do that than us just waiting for the Chinese to come and put up a hydropower plant. Let us use our graduates. The Copperbelt University (CBU) invented the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) system. So, why are we having graduates going to look for jobs when they can do something for this country?

Madam Chairperson, let me politely ask the Ministry of Energy and the Government of the day to take this seriously. Where are our graduates? Let the Government advertise and bring them under one roof and ask them how to get rid of our dependence on hydropower. We can have it yes, but we can do more if every home had solar power.

Madam Chairperson, there is a town in China where all houses use solar power. This is why I am asking why we cannot do that? Otherwise, we are failing our people. People who do welding and those who run saloons in Chienge, Mtendere and Kalingalinga cannot work when there is a power outage. When there is an outage, those who sell meat lose out, and their goods are not even insured. To make the matters worse, ZESCO Limited does not compensate any one, unlike in South Africa, where, the power supply company compensates you when your electric appliance gets damaged because of a power outage.

So, it is important that we start looking into another direction. As I was saying, we should have own home-grown solutions so that this country stops depending on these people to come. Why do we send students to study overseas then when they come back to work at ZESCO Limited, it is full? Which other companies can employ them? Is it the Copperbelt Energy Company (CEC) on the Copperbelt or the Rural Electrification Authority (REA)? REA cannot even take more than twenty graduates, yet we have plenty of them.

Madam, allow me to say that the hon. Minister should not take these views as coming from me. He should take them as coming from a Zambian who is very concerned. He should call up all graduates because they have brains. I can assure him that we have plenty of sand and that, I am 100 per cent sure, it is doable. By 2024, you will see us coming up with these industries. He can put one industry in Nchelenge, Chienge, Samfya, Siavonga or wherever we have beaches. Let him try to come up with this venture. We will be home and dry and load shedding will be a thing of the past.

Madam Chairperson, I just wanted to add this voice and support the Budget. Please, let us stop this dependence on donors for our hydro-power and find a solution.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I have seen the interest from so many of you, but time is not with us. We have heard from the Independents, the United Party for National Development (UPND) and the Patriotic Front (PF). Therefore, at this moment, I ask the hon. Minister of Energy to wind up the debate.

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, I thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to this Vote. We have had contributions from Hon. Mabumba, Member of Parliament for Mwense; Hon. Kangombe, Member of Parliament for Sesheke – the smaller Kangombe, I presume; –

Mr Kangombe: I am the senior!

Mr Kapala: We also had contributions from Hon. Menyani Zulu, Member of Parliament for Nyimba; Hon. Kampyongo, Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu; Hon. Amutike, Member of Parliament for Mongu Central; and last, but not the least, Hon. Katuta, Member of Parliament for Chienge.

Madam, let me start by responding to Hon. Mabumba. We are thankful for his guidance. I should mention here that this Government is a Government that plans things properly. We have inherited a huge debt on the storage depots that are complete as well as those under construction. At the moment, we cannot embark any more on construction of fuel depots. What we are trying to do now is encourage the private sector to take up this matter. We can come up with an arrangement where those fuel depots that are owned by private investors can be turned into bonded storage facilities.

Madam Chairperson, I should mention to the House that in our quest to reduce the cost of petroleum products, we will soon be launching an advertisement in the newspapers for the expansion of the new pipeline from the current 8-inch to 12-inch diameter so that diesel can be delivered to Zambia without using road transport. We will soon be able to see this advertisement and anticipate that this project should be done within two years.

Madam, the hon. Member talked about the monthly price adjustments. We have had a very good response from the Truckers Association of Zambia which has supported this idea. We have never had any complaints from private companies that the cycle should be reduced or increased by so many months. So, we are happy with what is happening and I think this situation is working.

Madam Chairperson, on the Cost of Service Study, I am sure the hon. Member of Parliament is aware that it is at Green Paper level, which will be published soon. The Government will soon make a position, and we anticipate that the implementation of what was recommended in the Cost of Service Study will be implemented in the coming year, starting in January. So, we should be able to move with reflective costs.

Madam, on the unbundling of ZESCO Limited, for now, we are planning to restructure it and not to unbundle it. There are ways and means of making it turnaround from its bad situation to a profit-making organisation.

Madam Speaker, I agree with the small Kangombe from Sesheke.

Laughter

Mr Kapala: We need to provide more information on what we are doing as the Ministry Energy, as he recommended. We will look into that. I can assure him that we are encouraging an energy mix in terms of solar generation. You will see very soon. As I said in my earlier statement, many companies have shown interest and a lot of power plants will come on-stream by next year.

Madam, coincidentally, there is a 50 MW solar plant that is scheduled to be erected in Sesheke under the GET FiT Programme.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Menyani Zulu from Nyimba and I have had discussions on the side about how Nyimba has been neglected, but I welcome him to the New Dawn Government. By next year, we should be able to provide his area with a 60 km line from the bridge into Nyimba so that we can electrify Nyimba.

Madam Chairperson, I am sure the hon. Member has noted that the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) has been given an increased allocation of over 100 per cent. This money will be used effectively in rural areas. I should add that we are planning to add more money to what has been given to REA from the increased amounts given to all constituencies. Mind you, there was a delay in the implementation of rural electrification. We are behind time because of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19). So, we are trying to play catch-up.

Madam Chairperson, previously, rural electrification was given paltry amounts, but now, we are scaling up. Last year, it was US$20 million and now, it is getting to almost US$ 40 million. From the programme this Government has set, we anticipate reaching, at least, 51 per cent of rural electrification by 2030. We are in hurry and that is why we are going to get some more money from the CDF so that we can accelerate rural electrification.

Madam, Hon. Kampyongo has advised that we look at parliamentary reports on fuel and the like. The impression the previous Government was giving to the people was that it cared about them. However, if it cared for the people, why did it leave us with a K12 billion nkongole that we have to settle?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapala: So, I feel we are managing this process prudently and –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Sit down!

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, what is nkongole?

Mr Kapala: Nkongole is bad debt.

Hon. Government Members: Bad debt!

Mr Kapala: That is why, when you look at the operations of Indeni, it was heavily subsided by the Government and that is why the Government is in –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kapala: That is why the Government is –

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is premised on Standing Order 65 regarding the content of speech. The hon. Minister heard my debate and he has opted to politick by going to the debt issue when he knows that there is no Government that does not operate on debt. We have approved debt here for his Government, so –

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: You wait until the people respond when the cost of living hits hard –

The Chairperson: Continue with the point of order, Mr Kampyongo.

Mr Kampyongo: Is the hon. Minister in order not to respond to the issues I raised? I talked about the empirical evidence which is here at Parliament. Is he in order not to respond to those issues I raised without politicking in that manner, which is against the rules of this august House?

I seek your guidance, Madam Speaker.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, as you are winding up, just try to be focused. This is a very important topic and the people of Zambia are expecting good answers which will make them feel comfortable. Please, just wind up your debate so that we move forward.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, sorry, I was responding to the hon. Member until I was interrupted. I was going to talk about the importation of crude oil and why we have discouraged it. This is because Indeni Petroleum Refinery cannot operate because it was heavily subsidised. That is why we have inherited this cost in terms of debt that has accrued on the Government.

Madam Chairperson, South Africa is a very advanced country which closed down two refineries about two months ago. So, it is an indication that inland refineries cannot compete with these giant refineries in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. That is why we cannot burden the people of Zambia with subsidies on petroleum products.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank the Member for Mongu Central, Hon. Amutike so much for supporting the measures that we are taking in managing the power deficit that is anticipated to take place in the next two weeks. Yes, we are going to invest more in renewable energy especially in solar. I take note of his advice to increase exploration in oil and gas. The Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, I am sure will be able to come and give a statement on that matter. There is a programme to encourage smart stoves so that we can reduce on the use of electricity.

Madam Chairperson, Zesco Limited, I understand will soon be giving out energy effect bulbs and a lot of solar geysers will be produced in the country. Hon. Katuta, talked about the production of solar panels. I will discuss this with the Ministry of Commerce and Trade and Industry and see what the requirements are. It is a good idea that we have a lot of sand and we should take advantage of this.

Madam Chairperson, on the compensation by Zesco Limited –

Power interruption

Interruptions

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, this is a sign of what lack of investment in Zesco Limited creates. This is because Zesco Limited has been deprived of maintenance money and that is why we are getting load management in the Chamber.

Madam Chairperson, Zesco Limited does compensate when a fact is established that there was an overload on the line and –

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, you can wind up your debate.

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, Zesco Limited does compensate customers who have been affected by any overload.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Chibombwe: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, my point of order is on the Government Chief Whip. Is the hon. Member in order to allow a situation where this House is cut off from power by Zesco Limited?

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, can you state the breach.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Chairperson, privileges.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Speaker, what I am trying to bring on the Floor of the House is that this House is fitted with an emergency lighting system. Those round lights we are seeing. So, each time there is a dip, the way we design lighting, like in this House is that we are not supposed to see that dip. The moment there is a dip, those emergency lights should come on. This is because we have a small solar farm here at Parliament.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, now, you are debating.

Mr Chibombwe: Madam Chairperson, I just want to explain to him how –

Madam Chairperson: No, you are debating. Let me guide you. This is an administrative matter. You cannot rise on a point of order.

Mr Chibombwe: Is he in order to sit there quietly when we are experiencing a power dip? He is posing a security danger to hon. Members here.

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member, please, resume your seat.

Hon. Members, you have been reminded over and over that any issue pertaining to administration cannot be raised as a point of order. There is a channel you are supposed to use. So, next time, hon. Member for Bahati, if you have an issue to deal with administratively, please, follow the right channel. Otherwise, it is not admissible.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Chairperson, I direct the hon. Minister of Energy to Page 595, Programme 2101 – Petroleum Development and Management – K255,513,961 and Programme – 2103 – Renewable and Alternative Energy Development – K8,215,279.

Madam Chairperson, I will start with the first programme. On the first programme where the ministry is asking, on Programme 2101 – Petroleum Development and Management – K255,513,961. It has changed the model for Indeni Petroleum Refinery. It is no longer a refinery but an oil marketing company (OMC). I am aware that we have very qualified people running the Indeni Petroleum Refinery. Does this K255,513,961 that has been indicated here also provide for resources to help the engineers perform under the new business model?

Madam Chairperson, lastly, on the same page, on Programme – 2103 – Renewable and Alternative Energy Development – K 8,215,279 –

The Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Kang’ombe!

I have seen a lot of names. So, if each hon. Member asks two questions, it will mean that we will be here the whole day.

Mr Kang’ombe: I wanted to debate, but I was not given a chance.

The Chairperson: No, but, can we gave chance to another hon. Member. You can always come back if there will be time.

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, petroleum development funds mostly were allowed for –

Mr Kang’ombe left the Assembly Chamber.

The Chairperson: Order!

We can move to the other person.

VOTE 2101/02 – (Petroleum Development and Management – K255,513,961).

Dr Mwanza (Kaumbwe): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2101, Sub-programme –

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chaatila: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chaatila: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order according to Standing Order No. 204 (k), on the conduct of the hon. Member.

Madam Chairperson, according to the procedure in the House, when an hon. Member of Parliament stands to ask a question, it is the duty of that Member to wait until the response is given. Was the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa in order to walk out of the House after asking a question before the hon. Minister could respond as a result of your ruling for him not to ask another question.

Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

The Chairperson: I am very sure we all know our Standing Orders or the rules of this House and because of the manner the hon. Member has behaved, I reserve the ruling. I will look at this matter and will come back to this House with a ruling.

Dr Mwanza, you may continue.

Dr Mwanza: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2101, Sub-programme 02 – Petroleum Depots – K250,000,000 and Sub-programme 01 – Non-Financial Assets (Capital Expenditure) – K250,626,000. What will the ministry use the money allocated for non-financial assets when on this table apparently, the amount allocated to this expenditure item does not tally?

The Chairperson: I hope the hon. Minister has gotten the question.

You may attend to the question, hon. Minister.

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, we should not worry about typographical errors. We should worry about what the money is meant for. This money will be used to cover up the huge outstanding debt for contractors who constructed the fuel depots and some of it will be used for surveys where we plan to encourage the private sector to erect fuel depots.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chitotela: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Chairperson, I reluctantly rise against my older brother, the hon. Minister for Energy. A precedent was set in 2011 when the then Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Kansembe, trivialised a 2 n and that almost caused the budget to collapse. Is the hon. Minister in order to say that we must not pay attention to typographical errors, but the figures? Does he not understand that the budget is anchored on figures?

I seek your serious guidance, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Kindly cite the Standing Order.

Mr Chitotela: Madam Chairperson, the role of Parliament is to appropriate and approve the Budget and to legislate, and that is the mandate of the hon. Members elected in this House. I do not have to cite the Standing Order, but the people of Pambashe sent me here to raise such issues.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, please, take into account all the issues raised as you respond to the hon. Members. We are following the figures in the Yellow Book. So, if there is a disparate, the hon. Minister is supposed to explain.

VOTE 2101/2002 – (Rural Electrification Programme – K758,722,660).

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2102, Sub-programme 2002 – Rural Electrification Programme – K758,722,660. This amount has been increased by 100 per cent. As a Member of Parliament from a rural constituency, what activities will the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) be devoted to in the next one year to justify this 100 per cent increase?

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, I already indicated that the Rural Electrification Programme is behind schedule due to the Coronavirus Disease-2019 (COVID-19) that derailed it in the past two years. So, we are trying to catch up on rural electrification and that is why we have a 105 per cent increase on the allocation. We are still below the targeted 50 million in terms of the Kwacha/Dollar relation. So, if we get US$50 million allocation every year for the next eight years, we should be able to get to, maybe, 40 per cent rural electrification. Currently, we are standing at about 28 per cent or so, which is not impressive enough.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson

VOTE 2102/2001 – (Electricity Development and Management – K913,608,704).

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2102, Sub-programme 2001 – Electricity Development and Electrification Management – K913,608,704. The amount has slightly been reduced from K958,327,782 to K913,608,704. I am aware that the Government is carrying out rehabilitation works on Kariba Dam, especially reshaping works on the plunge pool and the six sluice gates. We may face a calamity. In an event that there is unreasonable rain, which will have an impact on the project, is the hon. Minister able to affirm that the K913,608,704 allocated to electricity development and management to deal with the Kariba Dam is enough?

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, I do not even have to refer to my notes to respond to this issue. This is a matter that should be looked at by the engineers who came up the specifications for the rehabilitation of the dam. Should there be any disaster, projects are insured. Therefore, the responsibility for such a catastrophe will be passed on to whoever designed these facilities.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

VOTE 2101/1002 – (Petroleum Management – K4,706,375).

Mr Kasandwe (Bangweulu): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2101, Sub-programme 1002 – Petroleum Management – K4,706,375. On the last paragraph on the same page, part of the K4,706,375 will also facilitate the supply of 1,329,140 cubic meters of diesel, 597,140 cubic meters of petrol and 56,544 cubic meters of jet A1 and 3,171 cubic meters of kerosene. The hon. Minister indicated that the Government going forward will have no business procuring petroleum products. So, where will these petroleum products be used?

Madam Chairperson, secondly, I was looking through the budget –

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Kasandwe!

Mr Kasandwe: It is a simple question.

The Chairperson: No!

I had discouraged the other hon. Members from asking more than one question, so it will not be fair.

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, sorry, which page was it?

Mr Kasandwe: It is on page 597 in the last paragraph.

Mr Kapala: The last paragraph says, “An allocation of K4.7 million ...”. Does it start with that?

Mr Kasandwe indicated assent.

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, it is even indicated that the allocation will be spent on the petroleum management sub-programme for the undertaking of activities relating to management. So, basically, this is to enable us manage the procurement of the quantities that have been indicated.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

VOTE 62/2101 – (Ministry of Energy – Electricity Development and Electrification Management – K1,672,331,364)

Mr Chibombwe (Bahati): Madam Chairperson, let me draw the attention of the hon. Minister to page 596 Table 3, Programme 2101, Sub-Programme 2001 – Electricity Development and Management – (1) – K913,608,704. For 2022, there was a figure of about K958 million that was allocated to this programme and next year there is a slight reduction. There is K913.6 million. May I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether part of the money is going to be used by his ministry to carry out feasibility studies on waterfalls that are earmarked for hydropower stations on the Luapula River.

Mr Kapala: Madam Chairperson, sorry, I did not pick the sub-programme. Which one is it?

Mr Chibombwe:It is Sub-Programme 2001.

Mr Kapala: On Table 3? There is only Programme 2101 and 2102. So, which is it?

Mr Chibombwe: It is on page 596. There is Programme 202 and then just under 2102, there is Sub-Programme 2001 – Electricity Development and Management.

Mr Kapala:Alright, so it is Sub-Programme 2001 – Electricity Development and Management - (1) – K913,608,704.

Madam Chairperson, in fact, there is a reduction from the previous allocation. The funds will be allocated towards various electricity development projects such as the Sustainable Electricity Supply Project, Kafue-Livingstone Transmission Project, Increased Access to Electricity Project, Lusaka Transmission and Rehabilitation Project, Itezhi-tezhi Hydro Transmission Line Project and the rehabilitation of part of the Kariba Dam. The decrease is due to the reduction in the funds needed for the projects because these have been ongoing projects. So, we cannot keep on allocating more funds to the same projects. As the projects come to an end, less money will be allocated to this sector.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 62ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 54 – (Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development – K692,181,174)

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo) (on behalf of the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi)): Madam Chairperson, allow me to thank you for this opportunity to present a policy statement in support of the budget estimates for the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development for the financial year 1^st January, 2023 to 31^st December, 2023.I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, most profusely, for successfully presenting the 2023 Budget to the nation through this august House on Friday, 30^th September, 2022.

Madam, the mandate of the ministry is to oversee designing, procurement, construction, rehabilitation, maintenance and management of all public infrastructures in order to improve planning, co-ordination, standardisation, quality and efficiency in the development of housing and infrastructure in our country.

Madam Chairperson, in 2022, the ministry had an approved budget of K619.8 million. Out of this, an amount of K52 million was for personal emoluments, K81.7 million for recurrent departmental charges, including K1.3 million appropriation in aid, K277.3 million for infrastructure development and K64.1 million for maintenance of public building infrastructure. Further, K144.5 million was allocated towards operational grants for grant-aided institutions under the ministry.

Madam Chairperson, key areas supported in the 2022 budget included staff development policy formulation, review of key legal and regulatory frameworks for construction, rehabilitation, maintenance and management of public infrastructure.

Madam Chairperson, on the policy and legislative front, the ministry undertook several policy and legislative measures to support delivery of the ministry’s mandate. My ministry prepared the Draft National Infrastructure Policy and Implementation Plan to guide the co-ordinated and sustainable development of critical national infrastructure across the sectors. The ministry also undertook provincial and district dissemination of the 2020-2024 National Housing Policy and Implementation Plan.

Madam, in the area of legislative reforms, the ministry also amended the Public Roads Act No. 12 of 2002 to provide for the restriction on the execution against Road Development Agency (RDA) property and reduce composition of the board from sixteen members to nine.

Madam Chairperson, the ministry also continued to review the National Housing Authority Act of 1971. In the area of strategic planning, my ministry commenced the development of the 2022-2026 Strategic Plan for the ministry to programme implementation in the next five years. The ministry is currently finalising the plan and implementation commences in 2023, supported by the 2023 National Budget.

Madam Chairperson, in order to enhance effective co-ordination and participation of stakeholders in addressing the national housing deficit, my ministry successfully held a national housing forum under the theme ‘Investment, Strategies towards Mass Development of Decent and Affordable Houses’. The forum brought together housing developers, financiers, researchers and other interest groups to map out strategies of addressing the housing challenge. The outcomes of the meeting are being analysed and will be there to help the ministry in 2023 to determine the way forward.

With regard to public infrastructure development, Madam Chairperson, my ministry completed the China-aided Kenneth Kaunda Wing of the Mulungushi International Conference Centre. The ministry also attained different levels of progress on the construction of other public infrastructure. The ministry embarked on review of infrastructure contracts that have stalled for many years with the aim of either terminating contracts or revising the rates to account for price fluctuations due to passage of time.

Madam Chairperson, our investment in public infrastructure must be supported by adequate and timely maintenance plans. My ministry undertook maintenance and rehabilitation of many public infrastructure buildings across the country. Some of the works covered were presidential guest houses, occupied by very important persons and senior Government officials.

I must state very quickly here, Madam Chairperson, that the maintenance of public infrastructure is the responsibility of all, and together, we must implement asset management policy of 2021 to ensure we safeguard our infrastructure investment.

With respect to valuation and property management services, Madam Chairperson, my ministry valued and inspected a number of government properties and also prepared valuation rolls for the local authorities. My ministry also commenced the development of a fixed asset register intended to assist the Government to plan, secure and make decisions on its assets for purposes ofproperty development, acquisitions, allocations, utilisations and accounting, insurance or redevelopment for idle and wasting assets.

Madam Chairperson, in the road sector, my ministry through the Road Development Agency (RDA) continues with the construction and rehabilitation of road infrastructure countrywide. Among the key road projects is the Improve Rural Connectivity Project with the World Bank, the Chinsali/Nakonde Road with the support of African Development Bank (AfDB). Further, my ministry, through the RDA, successfully signed a concession agreement with MessrsTurbo-Ka-Chin Investment Consortiumfor the design, financing, building and operation, maintenance and transfer of the Chingola/Kasumbalesa Toll Road Project under the public-private partnership (PPP) financing model. The Government is currently undertaking negotiations on the construction of the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriage Way. The negotiations are advanced and before the end of the year we will be giving a progress report.

Madam Chairperson, the budget for the ministry has been prepared in line with the President’s directive for integrated planning and budgeting as well as of ensuring that all public infrastructure projects are procured at a correct price, quality and developed timely. With this in mind, there source allocation and priority contained in the 2023 budget for the ministry focuses on interventions that contribute to the realisation of the targets as set out in the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). I wish the hon. Member for Mpika and the hon. Member for Chienge were paying attention because I am being distracted.

The Chairperson: Can we have order please!

That group there, where there is the hon. Member for Chienge, we are hearing your loud voices. Can you please lower your voices so that we can all hear what the hon. Minister is talking about in the policy statement.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, in 2023, the ministry has allocated a total of K692,181,174 translating to 11 per cent increase from the 2022 Budget allocation of K619 million. Of this allocation, K59.8 million is for personal emoluments, K81 million for recurrent departmental charges including K1.3 million appropriation in aid and K334.2 million for infrastructure development. In addition, a total of K144 million is allocated towards the operationalisation of grants to grant aided institutions.

Madam Chairperson, under the social housing development, my ministry will implement the programme to construct homes for elderly citizens and other vulnerable groups.

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, the New Dawn Government has prioritised private sector participation in road infrastructure through public-private partnership (PPP), especially in economically viable road networks as a way of relieving pressure on the national Treasury. I now turn to my hon. Colleagues to seek their support in approving the budget for the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to this very important Vote. I want to state from the outset that I support the budget for the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development. However, I wish to make some comments to it.

Madam Chairperson, this is a very important ministry. Infrastructure is the backbone of any development in any country. In our country today, the history about the potential in tourism, agriculture and many other sectors has been there from time immemorial. The only time we will meaningfully realise this potential is when there is full development of infrastructure. Road infrastructure, airport infrastructure, water infrastructure and many other forms of infrastructure are all very important.

Madam Chairperson, in the past regime, we had what we called an integrated multi-sectoral approach in tackling development. This is why you found that certain areas received communication towers, roads and water infrastructure among others. My appeal to the New Dawn Government is that going forward, it must continue on that development trajectory. We have not seen much in the past budget. I know very well that Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is there to be able to tackle some development at local level. Major infrastructure like roads, bridges and many other forms of infrastructure like aerodromes, cannot come by way of CDF. It is therefore, an appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to consider and ensure that key infrastructure is looked at so that development in energy, tourism and many other sectors is enhanced.

Madam Chairperson, when we look at the public-private partnership (PPP), I have heard the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development many a time come on the Floor of this House to talk about the PPP model. There is a need to really relook at this particular mode of development as many or our infrastructure and roads actually do not qualify under this PPP model.

Madam Chairperson, I would want to mention here that this is a model that has been tested before and tried from as far back as 2015. It was realised by the private sector that the traffic volume on most of these roads could actually not justify the financial models. A case in point is a road like Kapiri Mposhi/Nakonde. I remember very well that way back in 2015, there was an attempt to put that road on PPP model and many contractors, both local and foreign, went and participated. The result was that even where we thought there was so much traffic on that road, the traffic volumes could not justify the financial model. It is therefore, important that maybe, the Government comes up with a hybrid where part of the capital expenditure is paid for from the road itself while the other part may have to be subsidised by the Government going forward because at the end of the day, besides the business component, there is a social aspect attached to it. At the same time, this particular infrastructure will also help develop many other sectors that will in future be economic sectors. So, I would like to say to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that there is a need to review the PPP model. We may need to do a little bit more than we are doing now.

Madam Chairperson, coming from a business background myself, I know for certain that most of these roads do not qualify under the PPP model. We looked at these models, the documents are there at the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, and many of these roads were tried under this particular model of PPP but could just not go through.

So, Madam Chairperson, when the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development comes to the Floor of the House and assures the nation about how many PPP programmes there will be, you know, sometimes we get worried because the facts are there that many of these roads will actually not qualify.

Madam Chairperson, this is a professional sector. It is a sector that is run by professionals. It is one of the most organised sectors. Going forward, there is a need for those that are in charge of this sector to fully understand it. I know that this is a sector that is run by engineers. If you learn to trust these engineers, they will give you the right advice. Many a time, we, as politicians, have gone against the advice that these engineers give. That is why there are problems in this sector.

Madam Chairperson, this is one sector that you can look at to be in the champion’s league because it is run by professionals, highly trained. So, I call upon the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to look at the area of supervision. It should enhance the area of supervision or consultancy, so to speak, in the areas of design.

Madam Chairperson, many a time, we have seen politicians go on site and exchange words with contractors. That is not supposed to be. You need to understand how these contracts are formulated. On a particular contract, there are three parties. There is the contractor, the consultant and the client. The client’s responsibility is to pay. The consultant’s responsibility is to supervise. So, when our comrades go to sites, they should not harass the contractor. The person to answer their question is the consultant. The one who is responsible for the quality of any project is the consultant and not the contractor. I am also appealing, through this platform, to all contractors not answer any questions when politicians to them. It is not their responsibility. It is the responsibility of the consultant. That is the truth.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: Comrade Kapala, is a consultant. He should advise my colleagues on the right. Under strict contract management, the contractor should not even respond to the client. The consultant is asked to manage the designs and supervise. For the information of those that may not know, a particular site is assigned a consultant who is in charge to look at the quality of the sand, the cement and everything else. He literally holds the contractor by his hand and ensures that he does the right thing. What we are talking about is not politics. It is contract management. We are speaking from an authoritative point of view, for those that may not know. We want to help politicians –this for the good of Government also – to understand that when you enhance supervision capabilities, you get the product value for money, as it were. So, let us look at –

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members on my right, let us not debate while seated. Let us give the Leader of the Opposition time to debate in silence.

Mr Mundubile: Thank you very Madam Chairperson. I am trying to assist so that the Government can value for money on the contracts it is channelling out. It needs to trust the work of engineers. Those are highly qualified. This is a sector that is run by highly qualified individuals. Many a time, those of us that go to supervise these highly qualified individuals are the ones that make mistakes because we turn to issues into politics. A contract is contract. Communication in a contract is guided. There is privity of contract. You do not have everybody communicating on a contract. It is only now that people think it is a crime to have contract.

Madam Chairperson, we have heard people coming here thinking that all those who have contracts are criminals. No! Those are legal documents. Colleagues should be guided from today onwards. There is no crime in having a contract. All those contracts are cleared through the Attorney-General’s office and they are guided.

Madam Chairperson, the notion that contractors run away with money is neither here nor there. The way these contracts are run, for the information of those that may not know, whether foreign or local, is that if you are going to get money from the Government, you will have to present bonds. At any given time, the Government is never exposed on these bonds.

Mr Kambita: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Chairperson, It is important that we give guidance to many of our colleagues. I have listened to some embarrassing statement on the Floor–

Madam Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Chairperson, I rise on standing order 65, which is instructive on being relevant to the debate on Floor. Is the hon. Member, who is also the Leader of the Opposition, in order to seemingly start debating himself regarding his own contracts were he failed to deliver ...

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: ... and we should all be convinced that contractual issues must arise. Is he in order to go on that trajectory?

Madam Chairperson, I need your serious ruling.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Members, all I can say is that the hon. Minister will come to respond at the end when everybody has debated. However, maybe, the guide to the hon. Member is that please try to be focused on the Vote.

Mr Mundubile: I am focused.

Madam Chairperson: Yes we are looking at the budget under this ministry. Let us try to be focused on this.

Mr Mundubile: Thank you very much Madam Chairperson. I am sure you appreciate the reason I went to that extent to just try to help some misguided debate on the Floor of the House. Let some of these hon. Members be guided that is highly regulated sector. Nobody walks away with Government money. Nobody. With a vengeful Government like the United Party for National Development (UPND), do you think I would be standing here if I walked away with Government money?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Madam Chairperson: Leader of Opposition, can we please move on. Let us make progress towards the Vote instead of exchanging words.

Mr Mundubile: They are not stopping the watch.

Madam Chairperson: Let us make progress.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Chairperson, the other point I was making is on the issue of alternative dispute resolution. In managing these contracts, the ministry must ensure that it looks at what is called alternative dispute resolution like arbitration. These are contracts were the Government spends colossal sums of money. We should not take pride in terminating contracts. The ultimate loser is the Government each time these contracts are terminated.

Madam Chairperson, we have seen in the recent termination of some contract in the Western Province that the Government may end up losing up to US$40 million. So, as hon. Colleagues make decisions to terminate contracts, they should consider alternative dispute resolution, going forward, so that government money is served.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr Mundubile: Madam Chairperson, they should also be stopping the watch when others are talking. My time was eaten up. Let us be honest. It is not fair.

Madam Chairperson: We have to move forward. The time is up. Can we have the next debater.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing the –

Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Information and Communication Technology (ICT) people at the back, please be mindful of the way you are controlling your time so that we do not have issues in the House.

Ms Katuta: They really go into our time.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Member for Chienge, you were not given the Floor. I am sure the ICT officer have heard.

Can we make progress.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Chairperson, this ministry is anchored on the Africa’s Agenda 2063, which wants to see an urbanised and industrialised Africa. So, rural areas like Mbabala Constituency do not want to be left out of the process of industrialisation and urbanisation. We want to see quality housing for our people. Therefore, we support the Vote that is talking about housing finance, social housing and settlement improvement by virtue of asking the ministry to reach out to the rural areas so that we can continue to improve the quality of houses. Madam Chairperson, each rainy season like this one, a number of houses collapse. Last year, we lost over sixty houses that collapsed because of the quality of housing. This year, in Kabanga area, Kalundu Ward, in Mbabala Constituency, we have already lost over seven houses due to the rains. Therefore, we need the ministry to come up with programmes that would help our people to improve the quality of housing. We need the ministry to come up with programmes that are going to ensure that we have housing finance programmes in rural areas as we move towards urbanisation.

Madam Chairperson, we also want the ministry to initiate social housing programmes by working with other stakeholders such as the Civic Forum on Housing and Habitant Zambia (CFHHZ), who are in the area of housing development so that we can use co-operative housing to ensure the improvement of the quality of housing materials as well as services and the like.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about public infrastructure. For us, in Mbabala, of course, the public infrastructure which is of concern is the Choma/Namwala Road, which is a key road for us, with its bridges. We also have the Pemba Road, which is also another key road. The Pemba Road alone has about eight bridges. So, the massive development, which was being talked about by the previous Government, left us with eight collapsed bridges. In the ten years of the Patriotic Front (PF), these bridges were never fixed. Up to now, they are off the road.

When we went there on Sunday, we had to go off the road into the river for three times and yet, this is a public asset, a huge road, which connects the people of Mbabala/Mang’unza area to Pemba and Monze. It also ensures the quick movement of goods and services. As we are in the rainy season right now, the only bridge remaining on that road has also developed big holes that I even took pictures of. So, we wonder when we hear about massive development and we have such washed away bridges, and for a period of ten years, nothing was done. Therefore, we are now looking forward to the New Dawn Government in its methodical manner of work, it is able to work and do such as jobs as to fix the bridges on Pemba Road as well the Kachenje/Mang’unza Road, which is also a key and public road leading to another part of the constituency.

Madam Chairperson, as regards the Choma/Namwala Road, as we saw, last year’s heavy rains shock a number of our bridges and most of them, their bottom structures were shaken. So, we want the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to come and maintain these assets before they are washed away during this rainy season. That way, we are going to maintain the said public assets and ensure that they serve our people.

Madam Chairperson, it is important that the Road Development Agency (RDA) maintenance programme be not seen to only patch the main road, but to deal with base that holds the road. That is an important factor, we want to see the ministry come on board to help us in Mbabala and ensure that we do not lose such big assets, especially the Mwela Bridge because that is the bridge that links us to the other side into Namwala. It is a very important bridge, we want to see it supported or repaired fully.

Madam Chairperson, we also have other areas of concern such as the Muyandwa Bridge that I keep talking about here. We have reported it to the ministry. The bridge has cut-off 450 children from going to school. The children are not able to cross because of the issue surrounding the bridge.

Madam Chairperson, I also expect the Nefwe Bridge that leads us to the famous Dundumwezi to be considered. This bridge is under the care of the RDA and it has been reported to them together with Chambwa Bridge. So, we want the RDA under the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to come and resolve this bride and its issues.

Madam Chairperson, we also want to see the improvement of our various roads. Yes, we are in a rural area, but we want –

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Could you lower your voices, hon. Members on my right.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Munsanje: Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about areas where there are no bridges like the Hampinda Simawobi area. We need to see a bridge there and Halumba Bridge needs to be replaced. This is a bridge on which so many people have died, for example, we lost three women last year, and it connects the constituency through the loop road.

Madam Chairperson, infrastructure is important to us, and we would to see especially the roads worked on. We want to see our share of development under the New Dawn Government now that we have a methodical leadership in President Hakainde Hichilema as well as his excellent Minister, Hon. Milupi, who is doing a good job, assisted by Hon. Nkombo today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munsanje: We are very confident that these things will be worked on because we are working on dealing with the issues that failed us in the last ten years where we were doing poor contracting and many other things, and we had a lot of bad debt. These things are being fixed, and I believe our Government will come to our aid so that we can equally experience the massive development that we used to hear being talked about.

The Chairperson: Order! Your time is up.

Mr Munsanje: I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Emmanuel Banda (Muchinga): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on Vote 54 –Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Muchinga are very happy and hopeful that they will see development during the reign of the New Dawn Government, which they have not seen for the last ten years.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Emmanuel Banda: I am saying this because there is infrastructure in Muchinga Constituency that has not been looked at. However, Lukusashi Bridge recently collapsed and we have seen the New Dawn Government’s commitment in trying to work on the bridge, through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), which is a temporarily measure, but we expect the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development to put up something permanent. The bridge has been there since 2005 and no Government made it a permanent structure and this shows that the people of Muchinga were left behind in development. They did not praise the development they heard about because they never had anything.

Madam Chairperson, the Chibale/Ndabala Road is only 48 km. The road is quite busy and from time to time, we grade it but within no time, the waves come back because of how busy it is. We look forward to this road being considered for upgrade by the New Dawn Government. Our colleagues considered the roads in urban areas not knowing that we also need better roads in rural areas, especially strategic roads like the one I am talking about.

Madam Chairperson, there is a bridge as one goes to Lusuwasi Power Station. The hon. Minister of Energy should take interest and talk about it with the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development because it is a deathtrap and we lost lives of late. It is a very bad bridge and I appeal to the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development through this debate to look at it.

Madam Chairperson, I want to mention that the ministry should build housing units in rural districts. The civil servants in rural areas need to benefit like their colleagues in towns.

Madam Chairperson, we have housing units that are constructed by the National Housing Authority in Lusaka, the Copperbelt and other areas. We need to see this in districts as well, so that the people there can benefit.

Madam Chairperson, I may have many things to say, but I know that we are many–

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Chairperson: A point of order I raised.

Mr Chilangwa: Madam Chairperson, in reference to Standing Order 65, that information that we provide on the Floor of this House must be factual.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member on the Floor of the House is talking about a road that has not been done in the last ten years and he goes further to say, since the year 2005. Does he think that in 2005, the Patriotic Front (PF) was in the Government? He does not recall very well that the period under review, the former late Vice-President, George Kunda was in charge of that constituency? Does he think that the former late Vic-President George Kunda was under the PF Government? We need to be factual in putting out the information that we have. Is he in order to state that the year 2005 was within the last ten years?

I need your serious ruling.

Madam Chairperson: Hon. Member, from what I heard, the hon. Member did not mention any political party. He just mentioned years saying that, “During the last ten years”. He also mentioned the year 2005. He did not mention any political party that we can start arguing about. So, the hon. Member, Mr Emmanuel Banda, was actually in order. He avoided mentioning the political party. If he had mentioned the political party, then there would have been a case to argue about.

Mr Emmanuel Banda, you may continue.

Mr Emmanuel Banda: Madam Chairperson, it is always important to mention when things were not done right. We should not hide. Our people need the services. There is the Kabansa Road in my constituency, which is 54 Km from Chieftainess Serenje. The road is quite bad going into the valley. We cannot give the people in that are any services. Recently, there was cement that needed to be transported and we spent about three months looking for transport. No transporters were ready. The vehicle for the only transporter we got had an accident and somebody died. This road is not new. It has been there. So, if I say that we did not receive development, this is what I mean because that is what we were looking for. If the road was done, I would be standing here saying they did the road.

Madam Chairperson, we are looking forward and may the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development help us. There are partners who have given us some building materials to construct a clinic in that area and we are trying. Let me mention that the hon. Minister of Defence helped us with transport to transport the material. This is the hope that the New Dawn Government is giving us. People used to fly with helicopters during campaigns and elections. However, we have never seen it. Now, in this New Dawn Administration, helicopters flew taking food to this area for the first time since 2002. So, if I do not mention it here that the New |Dawn Government is giving us hope, then I am doing myself a disservice. That is the hope I have.

Madam Chairperson, let me tell the hon. Leader for the Opposition that that is the hope that we have. I have to mention that the Government is going to give us what we need.

Madam Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member, please avoid involving other hon. Members in the House in your debate.

Mr Emmanuel Banda: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. If it means I will be a one-term hon. Member of Parliament because I am speaking for the people, let it be. However, I will not need to sit here for two terms whilst warming the bench without saying the facts.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Emmanuel Banda: Madam Chairperson, I urge the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Rural Development to please help us work on the road that goes to Kabansa, though the valley, but I know that the Government can manage to work on it.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much. Let me conclude my debate so that my hon. Colleagues on your left can smile.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. You will hear the history.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 6^th December 2022.

____________

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