Thursday, 17th November, 2022

Thursday, 17^th November, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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RULING BY MADAM SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR LAMECK HAMWAATA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR PEMBA CONSTITUENCY, RAISED ON THURSDAY, 3^RD NOVEMBER, 2022, AGAINST REV. GIVEN KATUTA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHIENGE CONSTITUENCY, FOR MAKING AN UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATION THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAD USED PUBLIC RESOURCES TO RENOVATE THE PRESIDENT’S PRIVATE RESIDENCE

Madam Speaker:Hon. Members will recall that on Thursday, 3^rd November, 2022, when the House was debating Vote 1 – Office of the President – State House and Rev. G. Katuta, Member of Parliament for Chienge Constituency was debating, Mr. L Hamwaata, Member of Parliament for Pemba Constituency, raised a point of order.

In his point of order, Mr L. Hamwaata, MP, inquired whether Rev. G. Katuta, MP, was in order to suggest that the Community House, His Excellency the President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema’s, private residence was being renovated using public funds without providing evidence.

Hon. Members, in her immediate response, the Hon. Madam Chairperson reserved her ruling in order to study the matter. I have since studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

Hon. Members, the point of order raises the issue of a Member’s duty to ensure that the information he/she provides to the House, when debating, is factual and verifiable.

Hon. Members may wish to note that Members’ freedom of speech and debate in the House is recognised and protected by the Constitution, Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia, and the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia. However, although the Constitution and the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, guarantee Members’ freedom of speech and debate in the Assembly, such freedom is subject to the rules of the House. One such rule requires that the information a Member provides to the House, is factual, verifiable and substantiated. In this regard, Standing Order 65 (1) (b) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021 provides as follows:

“65. (1) A member who is debating shall –

ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”

Further, Chapter 3 of the National Assembly Members’ Handbook 2006 on “Rules of Debate,” states as follows:

“Members must not allege specific matters of fact as being true unless they are able to substantiate them.”

Hon. Members, I had recourse to the verbatim record of the parliamentary proceedings for Thursday, 3^rd November, 2022 when the House resolved into a Committee of Supply and was considering Vote 1–Office of the President – State House, in order to determine whether the alleged statement was made by Rev. G. Katuta, MP.

Hon. Members, the verbatim record revealed that indeed Rev. G. Katuta, MP, alleged that the private residence of the Republican President commonly referred to as “Community House” was being renovated using public resources, in her debate of Vote 1– Office of the President – State House on Thursday, 3^rd November, 2022. However, Rev. G. Katuta, MP, did not lay any evidence on the Table of the House to verify and substantiate her allegation. As a result, her statement contravened the rules of debate as provided in the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2021, and the National Assembly Members’ Handbook 2006. She was, therefore, out of order.

Hon. Members, may I take this opportunity to, once more, remind you that making unverified and unsubstantiated statements on the Floor of the House is a breach of our rules. As you are well aware, debates in the House are widely followed nationally through the radio, television, and on the internet. I, therefore, urge you to desist from making unverified and unsubstantiated statements on Floor of the House in order to avoid misleading the House and the public at large.

I thank you.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ENGAGEMENT OF A NUMBER OF PRIVATE AUDIT FIRMS BY THE GOVERNMENT TO VERIFY ZAMBIA’S PUBLIC DOMESTIC DEBT

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify the engagement of a number of privateaudit firmsby the Government to verify Zambia’spublic domestic debt.

Madam Speaker, public domestic debt has significantly increased in the recent years,thus, contributing to Zambia’s debt unsustainability. The debt has, for instance, increased sharply between 2016 and 2022, rising from K51.8 billion to K76.4 billion, as at the end of June 2022. The increase in domestic public debt was driven by increased national external debt service, which impacted funding to other areas,higher borrowing requirements mainly to finance the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), refinancing of fuel arrears and partly due to increased budget financing requirements following limited externalfinancing resources. Domestic arrears also increased due to over procurement of road projects and possibly overpricing.

Madam Speaker, as part of the process of resolving our debt’s unsustainable position, the Government engaged multilateral organisations in verifying the country’s external debt, which was done, and decisions have been taken on this front to resolve the problem, through cancellations, re-scoping and undertaking actual debt restructuring. Similarly, it was necessary that this rapid increase in domestic arrears be equally verified. The verification, like the one we undertook on external debt, had to be undertaken using independent and specialised services, which the Government identified should come from a private sector player, as they possess expertise and are independent to verify the authenticity of the debt. Like I said, this process was similar to what the Government undertook as it was validating the external debt only that this process is being undertaken using local human resources. The firms we engaged are meant to establish and verify the authenticity of arrears owed to domestic supply of goods and services and on infrastructure projects.

Procurement Process Followed for the Firms

Madam, this Government promised transparency and good governance in the management of public funds. In line with this pledge, the firms that have been contracted were engaged through a selective tender process that involved twelve reputable firms that bade for the different lots, that is, the different categories of outstanding arrears. The tenders were floated on 31^st January, 2022 and awarded on 12^th May, 2022. The firms were engaged by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning with the authority of the Auditor-General, in line with Section 6 of the Public Audit Act, Cap 378 of the Laws of Zambia, which stipulates:

“Whenever the exigencies of public audit services so require, the Minister responsible for finance may, at the request of the Auditor-General, engage such agents or specialist consultants as are necessary to assist the Auditor-General in the execution of his duties.”

In addition, the Public Finance Management Act No. 1 of 2018 Section 7(1)(z) states that the Secretary to the Treasury can:

“Carry out any other functions that may be prescribed by the Minister or that may be considered reasonably necessary for proper financial management of the Republic.”

Madam, the bidders were evaluated on technical capabilities, after which the successful firms were evaluated on their financial competitiveness. The contract cost for the work is K16.8 million. The process resulted in six firms being selected and allotted arrears categories as follows:

Consultant Sector

Grant Thornton Goods and Services

PwC Road Contracts

CYMA Farmer Input Support Programme

Mark Daniels Value Added Tax Refund

Client Focus Awards and compensation

EY Advisory Services Fuel

Terms of Reference for the Consultants

Madam, the terms of reference for the review covers all Government entities and is not limited to defence and security wings. Further, for the defence and security wings, the firmallotted for verifying arrears relating to goods and services, that is,debt relating to goods and services, such as food rations only …

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Dr Musokotwane:… does not cover their operations or equipment supplies. Specifically for Grant Thornton and PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) that have attracted public scrutiny, their terms of reference are as follows:

Verification of Domestic Supply of Goods and Services by Grant Thornton:

review and evaluate contracts for supply of goods and services by having procurement entitiessupply backup documents for the debts;
establish the competitiveness of goods supplied and whether the Government obtained value for money from them;
establish that goods delivered notes were obtained in accordance with contracts;
review the procurement process through which suppliers were contracted with a view to establishing transparency and compliance to existing laws for all players involved; and
establish whether the interest rate chargeable on arrears reflect market fundamentals.

The terms of reference for verification of road contracts by PwC were as follows:

check the adequacy of the bidding documents and conformity to the law;
conformity of contracts to competitive bidding;
where an addendum was issued, the conformity to the law and confirmation that the basis is justified;
verify contracts that were granted down payments against the works done;
in cases where single sourcing was used, verify whether proper authority was obtained, that is, ascertain the quality of works against amounts paid, including sample site visits or physical inspection;
for project funds, determine whether the project funds were used for the purposes intended;
review and analyse the potential red flags that may indicate inappropriate financial management, misappropriation of assets and inappropriate use of funds; and
identify expenditures which may have been made for ineligible projects.

Use of the Reports

Madam, the reports, once finalised, will be submitted to the Office of the Secretary to the Treasury. They are exclusively meant for management use. They will augment the reports of the Controller of Internal Audits and are meant to aid decision-making, as we make payments and develop strategies for dismantling bigger volumes of arrears such as fuel. The post audit services of the Auditor-General continue post expenditurein that his office continues to audit public institutions in line with its mandate and based on schedule as supported by the valuable expert human resources. Further, these reports augment the internal audit reports which are used by the Auditor-General’s office as a reference point when conducting its own audits.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the process of engaging auditing firms was done consistent with Government undertakings to ensure that there are no fraudulent payments and that when payments are made, they are done so on account of value having accrued to the public.

Madam Speaker,the scrutiny is necessary as we know that already, some categories of arrears have incomplete documentation or certificates issued without works being delivered, such as those under the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Developmentand, of course, many others. So, to avoid this situation where money is paid without having verified that in fact, value was delivered, it has been necessary to verify these contracts before we dismantle the arrears.

Madam Speaker, I am sure you will agree with me that this is a very noble assignment that is meant to protect the Zambian public from fraud and other crimes.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Mundubile (Mporokoso): Madam Speaker, the elephant in the room is the audit of defence forces. The law is very clear in providing the procedure that should be followed when auditing defence forces. The law does not isolate whether one was supplying Kapenta, mealie-meal or, indeed, military equipment. The law provides a procedure on how or when the defence forces can be audited in the procedure that must be followed.

Madam Speaker, we want to be clear. Was the Auditor-General the one who contracted the services of those private consultancy firms with express permission from the President, as required by law?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, yes, the law has been complied with. First of all, we also have to recognise the fact that the Secretary to the Treasury and the Treasurer-General also have a say in this matter,given the fact that there have been allegations of fraud.As we speak right now,some of these allegations of frauds are in court.

Mr Mabeta: Correct.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, we have heard of a situation whereby people claimed, for example, that they suppliedfertiliser. The documents were signed alleging that they supplied fertiliser and all the payments were made.

Mr Mabeta:What a shame!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, later on, it was discovered that although all the payments were made for everything, in fact,a large portion of that fertiliser was never delivered,yet people signed that it was delivered.So, under those circumstances, it was imperative that the Treasury verifies all the bills and arrears to make sure that even whatever institutions, including the defence, were not subjected to this kind of fraud. So, if there was anyone who supplied to the Ministry of Defence thinking that because it was defence they would hide behind that, I am afraid they will not be able to do that.

Hon. UPND Members: Correct.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, given the problems that I am just describing now, the Secretary to the Treasury asked the Auditor-General to help audit so that before the Government paid,it would know that is was not paying for air, but for substance delivered. The Auditor-General said, “Yes, I want to do thatbutlook, I have so many assignments before me.So, I authorise you to use either the internal audit or any other consultants, as per the law (that I read on).”

Madam Speaker, this was, therefore, done with the permission and by the power vested in the Auditor-General. It was done with the authority of the Auditor-General.

Madam Speaker, once again, I want repeat that the Ministry of Defence audits was not about operations, but about asking questions, such as, “If you supplied beans or Kapenta, can we verify that you supplied the beans or kapenta?” It was not about how many guns or bullets were bought. It was not like that. It was for goods and supplies for the rations. So, if anyone thought that they would hide behind the Ministry of Defence, I am sorry the blankets have been lifted …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … and there is nowhere to hide.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, please, do not interject while the hon. Minister is answering or while a question is being asked.

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Speaker –

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, my point of order is based on Standing Order 65. I would like to sincerely thank you for providing for ministerial statements, through your Standing Orders. Ministerial statements allow us, the ordinary hon. Members of Parliament, to keep the Government to account. In doing so, we ask questions that are relevant to the subjects on the Floor.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has brought a very important subject. The hon. Leader of Opposition asked a specific question to do with what he considers as the elephant in the room, which is the audit of the defence forces.

Madam Speaker, the Public Finance Management Act has supremacy –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Lunte, what is the point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, that is where I am driving now.

Interjections

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, do not debate.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the Public Finance Management Act is supreme when it comes to management of public resources.

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, what is the point of order? Please, do not debate.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, the point of order is –

Madam Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, as we raise points of order, let us not use the occasion to counter what the hon. Minister has said. If it is a point of order, let us find out what rule or practice has been breached. It is not a time to start debating or countering what the hon. Minister has said. If you have a follow-up question, just indicate. You will be recognised and you can ask the follow-up question.

So, hon. Member for Lunte, specifically, what is the point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, my point of order is based on the question that the hon. Leader of the Opposition asked, which is in line with Section 73 of the Public Finance Management Act. This Act circumvents anyone from contracting services to audit defence forces other than the Auditor-General, with written permission from the President. His question was: Did the Auditor-General contract those services with express permission from the President?

Madam Speaker,therefore, is the hon. Minister, in order to start talking about blankets being lifted instead of stating whether the President did give permission to the Auditor-General to, in fact, contract those private services to audit the defence forces?

Madam Speaker, I seek your serious ruling on the matter.

Madam Speaker: I did not even get the point of order that you were raising. Were you saying –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

If you want me to make a ruling, I have to understand what the point of order is. I cannot make a ruling in abstract. So, the point of order, hon. Member, that you have raised is that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning did not answer the question that was put to him by the Leader of the Opposition. Is that the point of order?

Mr Kafwaya: Yes.

Madam Speaker: Alright. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the question that the hon. Leader of the Opposition put to you was whether the Auditor-General did consent to the audit with the express permission of the President, as required by Section 73 of the Act.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thought I had actually answered that when I said the Auditor-General authorised the Secretary to the Treasury to engage the Controller of Internal Audit or anybody else to undertake the verification of the bills. That is what I said.

Madam Speaker: Maybe, what was omitted was whether the President gave express permission.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker –

Mr Mundubile: Sorry, Madam Speaker, maybe, I could be a bit clearer. The question is whether the Auditor-General –

Madam Speaker: Order!

No, no, I think the hon. Minister has gotten the question. We are trying to clarify that issue. Let the hon. Minister clarify whether there was express permission from the President. That is all. Can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning just state whether the President did consent to the audit.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, right now, I am not privy to what the President and the Auditor-General may have discussed. However, what I know is that for the Auditor-General to have authorised this audit, he may have consulted the President. However, I cannot commit the President because whatever consultations were there, I was not part of them.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Dr Musokotwane: So, I presume that the Auditor-General acted accordingly and authorised the audit in question.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukosa(Chinsali): Madam Speaker, we appreciate the intention of this noble contract. In his speech, the hon. Minister stated that one of the reasons private external auditors were hired is that the Government wanted to get expertise that is possessed by these private external auditors that is not available at the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam, I also understand that the Office of the Auditor-General has a directorate specifically for public debt. The directorate is called Investment and Public Debt. So, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what specific expertise these private external auditors possess that is not available at the Office of the Auditor-General.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the House should kindly be reminded that the regular auditors for the Government are under the Controller of Internal Audit. The auditors under the Controller of Internal Audit are regular or internal auditors. The external auditors are from the Office of the Auditor-General. So, what happens? The ministry first approaches the Auditor-General, as the external auditor, to audit and, sometimes, the Auditor-General’s office says that it has so many assignments. Therefore, the Auditor-General authorises the ministry to use the Controller of Internal Audit or private consultants.

Madam Speaker, this is what happened and it happens all the time. Even without this situation, sometimes, there are when the Government wants to bypass internal controls and engages the Auditor-General to come and audit. It happens all the time and this is what happened in this particular case also. The ministry said, “Let us engage the Auditor-General” and the Auditor-General said, “I am very busy. Get back to internal audit. If you are not satisfied with that, even engage private consultants because that is provided for.” So, the Secretary to the Treasury is authorised to bring auditors, whether public or private. He is authorised to do so.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Madam Speaker, in responding to the question by Hon. Mundubile, the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. Minister, indicated that the Auditor-General authorised the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, through the Secretary to the Treasury, to contract this audit. Meanwhile, in the Daily Nation of Tuesday, 15^th November, 2022, the Secretary to the Treasury, Mr Felix Nkulukusa, said that the bid was selective and the Auditor-General did not authorise the contract. Would the hon. Minister kindly clarify.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, first of all, I am not sure whether the Daily Nation may have reported correctly. Secondly, even if that was the case, when the hon. Member says that it is alleged that the Auditor-General did not authorise the contract, what does that mean because the Auditor-General authorised the engagement of private auditors? That is not to say a contract with PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) was authorised or a contract with KPMG International Limited (KPMG) was authorised. That is separate. What the Auditor-General authorised was to engage private auditors, if so required. There is documentary evidence to that effect.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Amutike (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, it is very gratifying to note that the external auditors contracted to carry out this exercise are international firms of world class standard, and we have no doubt that the work that will be performed will be of the highest quality.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, my question is: Will the reports by these external auditors be availed to the Zambian public so that the public can know the extent of the damage and looting that some of these people sitting comfortably in this House did …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Amutike: …to this country?

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

Mr Amutike: I submit my question to the hon. Minister.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order!

Mr Emmanuel Musonda: He cannot say that.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Member: Are you some of them?

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I was distracted. I was reading this note and I did not follow what the hon. Member was saying.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Let me first consult. Stop the clock. I did not follow what the hon. Member was saying. Maybe, the Clerks-at-the-Table can assist.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

If the hon. Member for Mongu Central said that thieves are sitting here comfortably, that is un –

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: No, he did not say that!

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

I have indicated that I did not hear what the hon. Member for Mongu Central said. Maybe, the hon. Member can state what he said. Can he repeat?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Sit down!

Madam Speaker: Hon. Members, can we have some order in the House.

I was trying to say – Hon. Member for Mongu Central, resume your seat.

Mr Amutike resumed his seat.

Madam Speaker: I have indicated clearly that I did not hear what the hon. Member said. Somebody sent me a note and I was reading it while the hon. Member for Mongu Central was asking the question. I did not hear what he said. I only heard the reaction from the House. So, hon. Member for Mongu Central, whatever you said –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Shiwang’andu, please, give me time.

Hon. Member for Mongu Central, whatever you said that brought discomfort in the House please, can you withdraw and apologise.

Hon. Government Members: Hmmm!

Mr Munsanje: He did not say anything.

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker, what I asked the hon. Minister was –

Interruptions

Hon. PF Members: Withdraw!

Mr Amutike: Madam Speaker,I first thanked the hon. Minister for ensuring that the contractors –

Madam Speaker: No, I mean whatever you said that brought discomfort in the House, please, withdraw it and apologise.

Interruptions

Mr Amutike: I have withdrawn, Madam Speaker, whatever made others uncomfortable but what I said –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: No, that is it, hon. Member.

Now, I do not know if the hon. Minister –

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

I am sure the hon. Minister got the gist of your question.

The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning can answer.

Mr Mabeta: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mongu Central for his question. The question was: Will this report be made available to members of the public? The answer is that, in the first instance, this report will go to the Secretary to the Treasury. The hon. Member should remember that I said that this exercise is about verifying payments on arrears.

Mr Mabeta: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, this is to determine whether we are paying for arrears that are genuine or arrears that are just empty, in terms of supplies. So, in the first instance, the report will go the Secretary to the Treasury. Now, this becomes part of the report to supplement the efforts of the controller of internal audit. Later on, as per standard practice, the Auditor-General comes behind to audit all ministries. The audit of the Auditor-General is based on the findings of, or is largely made up of the findings of the report or the work of the internal audit. So, it follows the Auditor-General will look at this report that will come through, at some point, and he may decide to use it or not, as per standard practice.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for those clarifications. Having worked at both the Office of the Auditor-General and the Office of the Controller, I just want to understand something. In the Public Audit Act, all the statutory audits are supposed to be carried out by the Office of the Auditor-General, notwithstanding the fact that this office can subcontract, which is correct. However, what I am trying to clarify is: As and when these auditors finish their work, they report to the Secretary to the Treasury, which is more or less like a management report, and not to the Office of the Auditor-General. When the Office of the Auditor-General contracts, it should address a report to the Secretary to the Treasury. In the past, the Office of the Auditor-General was not being audited but eventually, it appointed external auditors who audit and address the report to the Auditor-General herself. The Auditor-General cannot rely on the audit that has been carried out by another auditor, but can use that audit just as a basis on which to look at certain aspects and extents of its sampling.

Madam Speaker, now, my question is: On what basis are we going to base a decision to authenticate a payment of external people, and then, the Auditor-General says that his office cannot authenticate the extent of their sampling? How do we harmonise the two?

Madam Speaker: I have added five minutes to this segment.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the report that is going to come through, as I have indicated, first and foremost, will go to the Secretary to the Treasury because we should remember that this about verifying payments. I did indicate that there have been incidences which have already been proved to be credible, taken to court, like in the case of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), where 100 per cent of the money was paid and people signed certificates saying that all the fertiliser had arrived when, infact, they did not deliver the fertiliser. We do not know for how long this sort of thing has been going on. It could be one, five or ten years. Who knows? So, therefore, in view of this, it became absolutely paramount to conduct the audit. In the first instance, this is about facilitating payment of arrears. Members of the public are always asking when we are paying these arrears. However, to pay those arrears, we need to satisfy ourselves that we are not paying for air.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Dr Musokotwane: So, in the first instance, hon. Member, the report will go to the Secretary to the Treasury, but as the hon. Member has correctly stated, at the time when the Auditor-General comes in, he will take a look and see how far he can use that information.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, year in and year out, institutions of higher learning in Zambia churn out qualified accountants to practice in different aspects of finance. I am aware that there are many young men and women who are ably qualified to undertake different types of audits. The Government is spending K16 million on private accounting institutions to undertake work which should ordinarily be done by the Auditor-General’s Office. I understand that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is equally very passionate about the abilities of Zambians. In his opinion, is it prudent to use K16 million to contract six private institutions to audit those public accounts as opposed to employing the many qualified auditors in Zambia who would have undertaken this very important assignment?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Kang’ombe. The answer to his question is, yes, it is very prudent. Let me, again, give an example of fertiliser. If you spent K16 million to be able to discover that the Government was cheated out of US$17 million and, therefore, you would go to the person who defrauded you and say “My friend, pay back this US$17 million,” that is money that is worth spending.

Madam Speaker, regarding the issue of whether we should have employed, of course, we must understand that this is a one-off assignment. So, for a one-off assignment, you cannot bring in so many people on permanent basis because it is a one-off assignment. Please, do remember that even if it is PWC, it is Zambians who are there. Even if it is any other audit firm, it is still Zambians who are there, coming from the same universities that the hon. Member talked about. So, I do not see any contradiction.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, we find it very difficult to buy into this statement. When we posed questions to Her Honour the Vice-President, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was sitting next to her and he could have been helpful by telling her honour to just concede that yes, there are these auditors auditing the defence forces. However, it had to take so many days for him to come here and make these clarifications that look like an afterthought.

Madam Speaker, yes, it is important that we follow the trail of monies. These audits have been done before. Between 2006 and 2008, there were similar audits under the Government of President Mwanawasa, SC., then, which were done by the Auditor-General with the same terms of reference. If, indeed, the Auditor-General accepted to allow this special audit to be done, it is basically passing a vote of no confidence in his own office. Like Hon. Mukosa said, there is a directorate under the Auditor-General which carries out specialised audits. We cannot deal with an illegality by creating another illegality. This is what we are saying here.

Madam Speaker, the question from the Leader of the Opposition is coming from the Public Finance Management Act, which is the hon. Minister’s piece of legislation. Why are we finding a challenge? Riding on the question of the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee on how these reports are going to be handled when the private consultants complete their work because the Secretary to the Cabinet may need specialised interpretation from the Auditor- General, why did we have to be so wasteful in terms of sub-contracting these services which could have been ably done by the Auditor-General? We would like to know whether the Auditor-General has conceded that he is now unable to undertake this work. I want a clarification from the hon. Minister.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I think I already answered this question. I said that the Auditor-General said that he has so many assignments on his plate and there is documented evidence to that effect. So, let us just cool down. This reminds me of a situation whereby, somebody was heavily criticised for healing a patient on a given day. “Why are you healing on this particular day? You should not be healing on this particular day. Why are you healing on a Sabbath?” He was told. The answer that came was,“What is more important; the health of a person or observing the day?” Similarly, I say unto thee …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: ... what is more important; the possibility to recover huge amounts of money that we can put into our education, health and roads or us pushing so hard as to why the Auditor-General did not do this or that when I have already clarified? Why are we so jittery?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, hon. Membersmust, please, advised that this is for their own good. If there is a possibility of serving money to give to their electorates, we can do so rather than worrying about this and that, no. let us focus on the important thing, which is the possibility of recovering money.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

_______

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

UPGRADE AND OPERATIONALISATION OF COMMUNICATION TOWERS IN LUMEZI

93. Mr Munir Zulu (Lumezi) asked the Minister of Technology and Science:

whether the Government has any plans to upgrade and operationalise the communication towers that have been erected in the following chiefdoms in Lumezi Parliamentary Constituency:

Chief Mwanya;
Chief Kazembe; and
Chief Chitungulu;

if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

if there are no such plans, why.

Interruptions

Madam Speaker: Order!

There is a phone ringing right now in this House and there are a lot of discussions. How will you understand the answers and then follow-up with supplementary questions if you are not even paying attention? If you are not interested in this, we can move to the next item. I remember having said that the day a phone rings in this House, we will stop bringing phones in the House. So, from today, no phones in the House.

The Minister of Energy (Mr Kapala) (on behalf ofthe Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati)):Madam Speaker, let me inform the House that the Government through Universal Access Project (UAP), constructed towers in Lumezi at the following places:

Chief Mwanya Chiefdom; and

Lukusuzi;
Yakobe;
Chasera; and
Mkasanga.

Chief Chitungulu Chiefdom

Lumimba;
Kapangala; and
Mbuzi.

Madam, the House may wish to note that all these communication towers are operational. The Government has, however, earmarked for construction a tower at Kazembe junction in Chief Kazembe chiefdom. This project is awaiting the availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that the Government has committed to continue supporting the construction of tower projects as well as upgrading of existing towers from the year 2023 and beyond. The plans will be implemented once funds are available.

Madam Speaker, the rollout plans for the construction and upgrading of towers will be informed by the recently finalised detailed coverage gap analysis.

I thank you, Madam Speaker

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, indeed, towers were constructed but the question is: When will they be operationalised? It is for that reason that we have no communication in Chief Mwanya’s area, Chief Chitungulu’s area and in Chief Kazembe’s area. When driving in the game management areas (GMAs) and you have a breakdown, you would not be able to make a phone call, be it on Zamtel, MTN or on Airtel networks. So, when will the communication towers start operating?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, it is regrettable that we have such a situation. However, this all depends on the availability of funds. As soon as funds are available, we should be able to make the communication towers operational.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Acting Minister said some of the communication towers were being upgraded. Last time we were dealing with a case like this, the hon. Minister of Technology and Science said, the ministry had upgraded some communication towers. However, when I went to one of the communication towers in valley with my Airtel, MTN and Zamtel lines, the communication towers were not working. Is the hon. Minister telling this House that the upgraded towers in Lumezi are working or it is just one of the stories?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, according to the information that I have, these communication towers are operational.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr J. E. Banda: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke Central, you have persistently indicated that you have a point of order. What is the point of order?

A point of order is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the good people of Petauke the opportunity to raise a serious point of order. My point of order is pursuant to Standing Order 206(b).

Madam Speaker, the male hon. Members, here, are failing to sit comfortably because the hon. Member for Kafue has come to the House without shoes. All the hon. Members’ attention has gone to her legs.

I need your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member for Petauke, when we are discussing a very important issue, you kept on insisting that you wanted to raise a point of order. I said that because of time, there would be no points of order, but you persisted. You mean you cannot sleep when you see somebody’s feet?

Laughter

Madam Speaker: You should have been here yesterday when they were talking about moving coffins, maybe you would have slept better.

Laughter

Madam Speaker: Can we make progress.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, when hon. Members of Parliament bring questions under Standing Order 74 or 76, it means there is a pressing matter in the constituency. The Acting hon. Minister’s response regarding when the communication towers will become operational may not be to the satisfaction of the hon. Member of Parliament in as far as the lack of time is concerned. Would the hon. Minister be in a position, working with other Government departments such as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, to give an indication as to when the communication towers will become operational so that the hon. Member for Lumezi exits with an answer to take back to the very needy areas, for purposes of communication?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I have taken note. I will pass on the message to the substantive hon. Minister. He should be able to come back to the House with a ministerial statement over the matter.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, I followed the responses that the hon. Minister has provided so far regarding the operationalisation of the communication towers in Lumezi Constituency. However, to begin with, let me appreciate that, indeed, this is the best platform where we can get accurate information regarding the question. Regarding the operationalisation of towers in Lumezi, how often does the Government interact with mobile service providers such as MTN, Airtel and Zamtel? In addition to that, –

Madam Speaker: Hon. Member, just one question. Today we have a loaded Order Paper. So, just one question, please.

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister if the Government has received any report from Airtel, Zamtel and MTN that the communication towers are operational so that the good people in these three chiefdoms are able to appreciate that, indeed, the communication towers are operational? Further, has the Government also updated the nation why we are facing challenges of interruption in mobile network from mobile service providers?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, in my answer to question (a), I had indicated that the information that I had in front of me indicated that the communication towers were operational.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Anakoka (Luena): Madam Speaker, the last time a question on communication towers was raised on the Floor of this House, there was an undertaking that a list of all constituencies where communication towers were supposed to be erected was going to be distributed. I just want to find out if that list is ready for distribution soon.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the information I have is that following the gap site survey, there are 998 sites that have been identified and these will be commissioned as funds are made available.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, my question was in line with that of my hon. Colleague, Hon. Kang’ombe, who noted that the question of when was not answered. Today, when I was appearing on your platform, the MP’s Diary, I was accused of not doing my job; giving checks and balances in this House. This is because as Members of Parliament, we let hon. Ministers tell us that they will provide services when money is available without giving us a timeframe, yet the people who write these answers for them, the civil servants, are paid hefty amounts of money that belongs to the people of Zambia.

Madam, mine is just a comment that going forward, you must protect us the Backbenchers because we ask these questions on behalf of the people who sent us here. It is not good to be told that a project will be done when money is available without a timeframe, yet the people who write these answers are technocrats is as good as not answering the question.

Madam Speaker: I am sure the Acting Minister of Technology and Science has taken note.

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, my question to the Acting Minister will be similar to the question that Hon. Anakoka asked, which the hon. Minister has not answered. When is the list being availed to hon. Members of Parliament?

Mr Kambita: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, it is actually a point of procedure, not necessarily a point of order.

Madam, I rise on a point of procedure. I notice that it has been a trend in this House for hon. Members to stand up to make comments during the window which you have given for asking follow-up questions. Follow-up questions are different from comments. Comments are as good as debates. So, if any hon. Member wishes to make a comment or debate, he/she should wait for tea time to make that comment.

Madam Speaker, I rise on this point of procedure because I want to know if the House is in order to allow this practice of hon. Members rising to give their comments on the way they feel something should be done, anyhow and in any way, in the fashion of the hon. Member for Mandevu? I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Speaker: There is no provision under our Standing Orders providing for hon. Members to stand up and make comments. What we are doing here is that hon. Members are supposed to ask supplementary questions. When an hon. Member stands up and makes comments instead of asking a supplementary question, that hon. Member is out of order.

Please, let us follow the Standing Orders. When you are given chance to ask a question, just ask that question. Do not make a comment or debate because at this time, we are not debating. We are just asking supplementary questions on the answer that has been provided by the hon. Minister. Please, let us be guided accordingly.

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, the information I have got is that the ministry will soon be engaging hon. Members of Parliament so that it can roll out the plan for the deployment of these communication towers.

Madam, at the moment, there is enough money to construct about fifteen towers per year so it is a question of how the masterplan has been laid out so that hon. Members of Parliament in these particular constituencies can approach our ministry and thrash out the plan to be adopted.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that those communication towers shall be operationalised once the funds are available. How much does it cost to operationalise one tower?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, looking at the information at hand, it looks like we can do fifteen towers in K100 million. So, it is a question of arithmetic to know how much one tower will cost.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Munir Zulu: Madam Speaker, the area I represent has a lot of wildlife animals, including porcupines. People have difficulties moving around such that if you are in a vehicle, you cannot overtake a porcupine. Most of these towers that were constructed and are not working are short. Therefore, if there is an emergency in the middle of the night, someone would need to walk in the game park just to attempt to make a phone call. In areas like Njoka and MutimbaSonjo, people have those difficulties.

Madam, is the hon. Minister considering involving local people in these areas when upgrading the towers he has mentioned? The situation has been that the Government builds towers where there are animals but no human beings. Going forward, will this ministry consider constructing towers where there are human beings and not where there are animals?

Mr Kapala: Madam Speaker, I am not a telecommunications engineer, I am a structural engineer but I know that the siting of these towers is scientifically calculated and whether they are sited where animals are or where human beings are is left to the experts to decide.

I think you, Madam Speaker.

_______

MOTION

WAYS AND MEANS

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply. I am a bearer of five messages from His Excellency the President recommending that these Motions, which I now lay on the Table, be proceeded with in this House.

Dr Musokotwanelaid the paper on the Table.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, as a result of the Budget that I represented to this august House on Friday 30^th September, 2022, it is necessary to introduce the financial measures that I will outline in the Committee.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

MOTION

WAYS AND MEANS

Dr Musokotwanelaid the paper on the Table.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, as a result of the budget that I presented to this august House on Friday, 30^th September, 2022, it is necessary to introduce the financial measures that I will outline in the Committee.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the House for the overwhelming support.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE INCOME TAX ACT

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Income Tax Act so as to:

increase the Pay As You Earn tax free threshold for an individual to fifty-seven thousand six hundred Kwacha per annum from fifty-four thousand six hundred Kwacha per annum, reduce the marginal tax rate for the second income bracket to twenty percent and adjust the income bands accordingly;
increase tax credits for a person with disability to seven thousand two hundred Kwacha from six thousand Kwacha per annum;
introduce a tax free threshold on turnover tax and rental income tax of twelve thousand Kwacha per annum;
reduce the corporate income tax rate to twenty five percent from thirty percent on income earned from value addition to gemstones through a lapidary and jewellery facility;
reduce the tax chargeable on income received by a special purpose vehicle from a public private partnership project by twenty percent for the first five years that the public private partnership project makes profit;
introduce an accelerated rate of wear and tear allowance on a straight line basis not exceeding one hundred percent for an implement, plant and machinery acquired and used under a public private partnership project;
abolish the two tier taxation system in the telecommunication sector and introduce a corporate income tax rate of thirty five percent;
reduce the withholding tax rate from fifteen percent to zero percent on interest income earned on green bonds listed on the securities exchange in the Republic with maturity of at least three years;
reduce the withholding tax rate to zero on interest earned on a life insurance policy;
increase the allowable expenditure for the construction of employee housing and the farm improvement allowance to one hundred thousand Kwacha from twenty thousand Kwacha;
introduce a presumptive tax on income earned from artisanal and small scale mining at the applicable turnover tax rate based on the gross turnover less mineral royalty paid;
reduce presumptive tax to fifteen percent from twenty five percent on land based (brick and mortar) betting companies for the 2023 and 2024 charge years;
reduce the withholding tax rate on winnings from gaming and betting to fifteen percent from twenty percent for the 2023 and 2024 charge years;
abolish the twenty percent withholding tax on reinsurance placed with reinsurers not licensed in the Republic;
reduce the withholding tax rate to zero percent from fifteen percent on interest earned by an individual from a loan advance to a person under a savings group;
introduce income tax concessions on income generated from the manufacturing of corn starch for fifteen years;
extend the turnover tax regime to service providers in the gig economy;
introduce specific penalties for negligence, willful default and fraud with respect to presumptive tax on gaming machines and casino games (brick and mortar);
introduce the use of an electronic fiscal device and other devices for income tax purposes.
extend commodity royalty to resident to resident transactions;
reduce the minimum age for tax payer identification number registration to sixteen years from eighteen years;
repeal the approval process of pensions under income tax;
exempt a pension approved under the Pension Scheme Regulation Act from income tax; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the forgoing.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE ACT

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to include the objects outlined below:

revise the rates of customs and excise duty payable on certain goods;
revise the list of goods to be subject to surtax at importation;
provide for the use of electronic fiscal device in the administration of excise duty;
reduce customs duty on electric motor vehicles and cycles and;
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move.

Question put and greed to.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX ACT

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to include the objects outlined below:

revise the definition of “commercial property”;
provide clarity on crediting of input tax;
revise the penalty for tax evasion; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity.

Madam, as we support the proposal by the hon. Minister to amend various legislations including the Customs and Excise Act and the Value Added Tax Act, I was taken aback and so were many Zambians when he announced the increment in his Budget Speech for 2023 concerning the suspension of the Value Added Tax (VAT) and the Income Tax on petroleum products. Maybe, he can clarify a bit.

Madam, I wondered how the removal of the VAT and the Income Tax for this year because he said these changes will take effect midnight tonight will affect the 2023 Budget. Now, the hon. Minister has come to propose to make adjustments to various pieces of legislation. I was trying to comprehend because when he was presenting the budget, he said the suspension of VAT and the Income Tax on petroleum products were taking effect midnight of the day he presented the budget.

Madam Chairperson, to my little understanding, that is 2022. So, what will that be as compared to the effect of the 2023 Budget? Will the suspension of the VAT that the hon. Minister announced as he was making the budget speech affect the budget figures for 2023 and the gains that we are gaining as a result of suspending the VAT and the Income Tax on the petroleum products be the gains for 2023 or it is affecting the budget performance for 2022.

Madam, I support the intention of the hon. Minister to introduce these Bills so that the effect of the 2023 Budget can be accomplished, but I had this question. What is the benefit to the Zambian people based on the suspension of the VAT and the Income Tax for 2022 since the announcement was ‘midnight tonight.’

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe, Mr Chitotela, for that question regarding the Value Added Tax (VAT) on the petroleum products. He should remember that VAT was suspended and that is why we have not been paying for it, previously. At the time when I was announcing the Budget, by sheer coincidence, it also became the time when – VAT should have been reintroduced much earlier in the year, around June. The date was carefully chosen for us to wait until a time when we had stability in the exchange rate in order to minimise the hardship that the Zambians go through.

So, by September, it was decided that VAT be reintroduced with effect from midnight, on the day of that announcement was issued. So, the benefit of that has to be seen in the context of the entire Budget because the revenue coming out of that is the same revenue that we are proposing spend Head by Head, as we discuss this Budget.

Madam Chairperson, in that sense therefore, the revenue coming from VAT is part of the money that enables us as a country to provide more money to the constituencies through the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), to pay for school children so that they do not need to pay school frees, to pay for health services, and everything else that is there in the Budget. So, that is where that money, which we started collecting from the beginning of October this year is going to. Of course, we will continue to do so in 2023.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I thank Hon. Chitotela for his contribution and the entire House for the support.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Question put and agreed to.

THE PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX ACT

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Property Transfer Tax Act, so as to:

The object of this Bill is to amend the Property Transfer Tax Act so as to—

reduce the property transfer rate on the transfer of a mining right for an exploration licence to five percent from ten percent;
provide clarity on a share in the mining sector to include an interest in a mining right and an interest in a mineral processing licence;
provide clarity on the realised value in respect of the computation of property transfer tax on an indirect transfer of shares as a proportion of the value of the company incorporated in the Republic;
exempt the surrender or forfeiture of shares from property transfer tax;
permit the use of the actual price received in determining the realised value for the disposal of foreclosed property by a financial service provider; and
provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

Further, a Bill to give effect to this be introduced, accordingly.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Madam Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Property Transfer Tax Act, so as to introduce changes that I had announced in the Budget presented on 30^th September, 2022.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chitotela (Pambashe): Madam Chairperson, this is one of the Bills that I would want the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to consider waiving on behalf of the poor Zambians. We should bear in mind that this Bill is introducing an increment on taxes from 5 to 7.5 per cent on the poor Zambians who would want to change their properties. We are instead giving tax rebate by reducing the Property Transfer Tax from 10 to 7 per cent on the mining firms that would want to sell their properties. I feel the Government could have done the opposite in order to gain revenue. I know the Government is in a hurry to attract foreign investment, more especially in the mining sector. Now, if we decided to reduce the Property Transfer Tax from 10 to 7.5 per cent on the mining firms, and choose to increase it from 5 to 7.5 per cent, on the poor landlord, who would want to sell a house in Chimwemwe, Buchi, Kamatipa and Ndeke Village, I feel it is not fair, bearing in mind the behaviour of the international conglomerates. They will see this as an advantage.

Madam Chairperson, after ten years of trading, they will be doing inside trading, for example, the father sells to his son. We will see big mines being sold because these investors will know that the Property Transfer Tax has been reduced. They will also know the benefits that come with the new ownership of the mines. A lot of things may be there for anyone to see. This may result into the Government not gaining. Projecting that maybe, we reduce the Property Transfer Tax on the conglomerates from 10 to 7 per cent, and increase it from 5 to 7.5 per cent on the poor marketer, who may have a small house in Kaunda Square Stage II, Chelstone, Matero, Kabwata and Chilenje, who may be forced to sell that house to raise money because their child has qualified to go to university is not fair.

Madam Chairperson, I wish the hon. Minister could considerably consider, as he brings the Act for amendment, giving a bit of relief or rebate to the poor Zambians out there, who are struggling with a lot of things. I believe that increase, in terms of taxes does not attract investment. Yes, I know that the Government is thinking that if it reduced the Property Transfer Tax on the mining sector, it may attract sustainable investors, who may want to come and invest in Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, however, that is not always the case. You will find that this always results into trade between families. We know of one mine, and the hon. Minister is aware, that was owned by the Canadians here in Zambia. We will have situations where the father sells to the son and the son, sells back to the father. So, you will see that there will be a lot of internal trade within the families. If we give these benefits to the foreigners, it will disadvantage the state from collecting the necessary taxes. This will infringe more pain on the many poor Zambians who depend on the money they get when they sell their properties.

Madam Chairperson, many of them decide to sell some properties because of circumstances. A number of them are forced to do so when their children qualify to go to schools such as universities, colleges, even to study outside the country. The intended purpose may not be achieve because when people realise that they may pay more tax, they may sale their house at K250,000 but on the paper they put K150,000 so that they are able to save some money. However, if the Government gave a tax that will be attractive for them to pay, we may encourage more people to comply.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kampyongo(Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much.

Madam Chairperson, indeed, we understand that it is expedient for the hon. Minister to introduce the Bill to effect some of the revenue-generating proposals that he announced in this august House. However, he needs to pay attention to the sentiments of the people after he announced those measures. The whole purpose of putting in place tax measures is to ensure that compliance does not become a challenge. When compliance becomes a challenge and people want to beat the system, it becomes difficult to realise the projected targets.

Madam Chairperson, the property market must be analysed in terms of the effects of these measures. Some of these rates that the hon. Minister is imposing will affect the people. When people with property, for example, rent their property, these rates will trickle down to them. We know that the people are struggling so it is important that we cushion them in a way. So, our plea to the hon. Minister is that he should listen to the sentiments the people aired when he announced these measures. Where he can make adjustments, he should make adjustments in order for him to ensure that the measures in the Bill he will bring are complied to.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I thank the two hon. Members who have debated. It is like yesterday or perhaps a few days ago, they entered my mind and read what was there. So, in a sense, even as they were talking, the mind of the Government was already made up that, indeed, the status quo of the property transfer tax at 5 per cent will be maintained.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: So, the Government already decided to revert to 5 per cent. Other than that, I thank the House for the support.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

THE MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT ACT

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Mines and Minerals Development Act so as to restructure the taxation of mineral royalty.

Madam Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Mines and Minerals Development Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in the Budget Speech on 30^th September, 2022.

Madam Chairperson, I thank the House for the support.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

Resolutions reported.

Reports adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Madam Speaker appointed the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bills to give effect to the resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means.

_______

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, No. 26 of 2022.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Planning and Budgeting Committee. The committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 7^th December, 2022. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the committee.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, No. 27 of 2022.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, No. 28 of 2022.

THE PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill, No. 29 of 2022.

THE MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2022

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill, No. 31 of 2022.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. The committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 7^th December, 2022. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the committee.

_______

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

THE ZAMBIA INSTITUTE OF SECRETARIES BILL, 2022

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 14 – (Determination of application for registration as professional secretary)

The Minister of Education (Mr Syakalima): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 14, on page 14, in lines 9 and 11, by the deletion of paragraph (d) and the substitution therefor of the following:

is a citizen or resident of the Republic;.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 14, as amended, ordered stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 and 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 37 – (Professional Conduct Committee)

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 37, on page 20, in lines 26 and 27, by the deletion of the word “two”, wherever the word appears, and the substitution therefor of the word “three”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 37, as amended, ordered stand part of the Bill.

Clause 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, it has become a habit after tea break, that we have to wait for one or two minutes before the quorum is formed. This is very bad. It does not give a good picture to Zambians who are watching us and listening to us.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Can we, please, try to improve.

Clauses 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54 and 55 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

First and Second Schedules ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_____

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through the Committee with amendments:

The Zambia Institute of Secretaries Bill, 2022.

Report Stage on Tuesday, 22^nd November, 2022.

______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

VOTE 25 – (Local Government Service Commission– K16,603,961).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga):Madam Chairperson, the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) is mandated to appoint, promote, transfer and look at disciplinary cases in all local authorities.

Madam Chairperson, immediately the commission was instituted, the first thing it did was to go to Lusaka City Council (LCC) were it did the human resource audit. The outcome of that audit is in public domain. It actually confirms what we have been seeing its terms of service delivery. The coming of these human resource management committees will entail good service delivery across the nation.

For instance, in Lusaka, there are two departments that are so important in every local authority, and these are, the Department of Engineering and the Department of Finance. When the LCC appeared before our committee, we told them what we have seen even today, that the Department of Engineering is not doing its best because every year, during the rainy season, Zambians or Lusaka residents are forced to go kwahae for Kuomboka. Around the Kafue and Kabwe roundabouts, and also, at Kulima Tower, ...

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Mulunda!

Where is kwahae?

Mr Mulundu:Kwa hae is our home in the Western Province.

Laughter

Mr Mulunda: ... we always have floods. We also have floods in many other places like Kanyama when we have the Department of Engineering with very qualified personnel. What is happening? Why do we see these happenings everyday of every year when we have the money allocated to this department every year?

Madam Chairperson, in the department of finance, we have seen a lot of problems to do with internal auditors and accountants. We have seen payments being approved without all the documents attached. You will find that when a payment is released, money will be used. At the end of the day, when they appear before the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) or before our committee, they will not have the answers. Under human resource, we are looking at whether these officers are competent enough to be able to handle those offices. That is the question that we are posing now to the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC). We want it to put people according to their qualifications, unlike what we were seeing, where people were promoted and given positions but learning from the people they found in those departments. Since those people were connected somewhere, they were able to get good positions. This should not be the case now. Now, LGSC is putting those Human Resource Management Committees across the nation.

Madam Chairperson, we want these committees that are being created across this country to make sure that theynow, audit the officers, human resources, local authorities and bring performance audit in all these local authorities. This time around, everywhere you go, like I said, if you go to any local authority, you will find that the Department of Engineering is not doing enough. The drainages are not cleaned. During the Kaunda days, if you asked Brig-Gen. Sitwala, between April and August, you would find all the drainages cleaned and worked on in readiness for the onset of the rainy season. That is not the case anymore. Today, everyone across this nation in local authorities sits back. Those days, directors of works and engineers would sit in the offices. Their duty was to move around and see to it that the town is clean and everything is functional. Currently, that is not the case. Nowadays, directors of engineering put on suits. That time, the director of engineering and works would put on jeans and boots because they are field workers. This time around it is different. We want the LGSC to look into this matter.

Madam Chairperson, we have seen the staff turnover that we experienced during our colleagues’ reign, the Patriotic Front (PF). Those who have been in Parliament maybe, from 2016 would tell that they worked with more than five Town Clerks or Council Secretaries. In every two months, they could be moved and taken somewhere else. Before they could settle, there was already a transfer waiting for them. Moreover, there was no discipline in that junior officers could not respect their supervisors. Their supervisors could give directives to them but they could not listen because they knew that they were connected. They could just report their superior and that person will be moved. This should not be the case with the new LGSC. We want them to move people when they have done the best were they are and also improve those departments.

Madam Chairperson, many misapplications and embezzlements have been happening in the department of finance. This is where the final person who is the Town Clerk or the Council Secretary is able to sign wrong documents. There was a situation where the Council Secretary and other signatories signed a blank cheque and gave it to the office orderly to take to another officer. On his way, between the offices, he helped himself by adding some numbers to the figure that was already written on the cheque. These people even appeared before our committee. So, you can see how careless sometimes our officers become. This is all because we do not have people who are trained, who do not know what they are supposed to do, day by day. There was total negligence of duty and this is one thing that we want the LGSC to look into. We will not allow a commission that is just going to transfer or promote people because they are connected or related to them. We want the commission that is going to look at somebody and see that somebody is able to perform. Then, they can give that person the position that equals to his academic qualifications and he is able to perform. That is one thing that we are looking for.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing that we have experienced in this local authority is the fact that at times, the LGSC over employed. For instance, in Siavonga, at one point, they brought sixteen fire fighters without an office or fire tender. These people were just sitting. After a month, they moved them to some other places. At one point, we had five secretaries in one office. That was the PF’s style.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Tayengwa (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the good people of Kabwata a chance to add their voice on this Head that is being debated on the Floor.

Madam Chairperson, first of all, I want to state that all what the hon. Members of Parliament have debated is actually giving us not the remedy or cure but just insights. I want to specifically deal with the issue of Local Government service Commission (LGSC).

Madam Chairperson, I think if you were to understand the role of the LGSC, you will understand that they act as an agent employer for the Government. The reason why you discover that the LGSC has been unable to perform most of the functions is because of some issue that I feel that the administration has to attend to and look. Number one, it is the issue of funding. When you look at funding for the LGSC, you will discover that the issue of finding is something that has caused them to fail to visit theses local authorities to do audit and check who is qualified. Why, it is because of the funding that has been denied.If we were to give the Local Government Service Commission enough funds, something could be done.When the hon. Minister was reading the policy statement, he appealed to hon. Members to approve the budget of only K16 million, meaning that the money is not enough, and that is why he used the word ‘only’. So, if we increased funding to this institution, we would be able to deal with some of the problems that we saw in the past. For instance, we saw that most local authorities would fail to pay their workers on time, and they would go for even seven months withoutsalaries. They would not release the Equalisation Fund on time because of the Local Government Service Commission’s weak structure.

Madam Chairperson, I want to state that the issue of transport at the Local Government Service Commission is one thing that needs to be addressed and is something that we should take note of. There is no way the Local Government Service Commission can fail to have vehicles. Some commissioners even hike, yet in their conditions of service, it states that each commissioner should have a vehicle. However, someof them are struggling. So, there is a need to take keen interest in the issue of transport.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about salary harmonisation, andI debated about this issue when I contributed to the debate on the Zambia Police Service Commission. I think the issue of salary harmonisation is common in service commissions, especially in the Local Government Service Commission. You cannot have a situation in which the chairperson gets money four timeshigher than the other commissioners, yet they do the same work. I think there is a need to harmonise the salaries. For us to cure all the things that we are talking about in this House, let us first deal with the root cause,starting with the issue of remunerations at the Local Government Service Commission. When revising the conditions of service for the Local Government Service Commission, aCommittee of Permanent Secretaries sits down and comes up with the remunerations and it is not supposed to be like that.I know that the Emoluments Commission Act was passed, but before it was passed, they should have done the correct thing of first allowing the Secretary to the Cabinet to revise the remunerations for theLocal Government Service Commissioners.

Madam Chairperson, I want to talk about the issue of appointing commission secretaries. If we fail to deal with some of the issues affecting the Local Government Commission Service Commission, we will have a weaklocal authority. When you have a weak service commission, you end up breeding a weak local authority and that spreads to so many local authorities. Even the appointment of commission secretaries is not supposed to be done by the Public Service Management Division (PSMD); it is supposed to be done by the commissioners themselves. If you give powers to somebody else, the allegiance goes to somebody else and that is the reason we insist that the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development should consider allowing the commissioners to appoint the commission secretaries and should look into the issue of remunerationsof thecommissioners and the commission secretaries. There is no way the secretary and the commissioner, appointed by the President, can be getting the same salaries.

Madam Chairperson, Iurge the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development to consider looking at these matters affecting the service commission. If we fail to look at the issues affecting the service commission, we will end up having weak councils and that is why councils would fail to pay salaries on time and they would delay by three to four months as we saw in the past regime. We also saw people being employed without qualifications because the Local Government Service Commission did not have transport to go and do inspections.

Madam Chairperson, with those few words, the people of Kabwata support this Vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we have to make progress. I was informed that many hon. Members debated yesterday. So, we have to close this Vote.

The Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Chairperson, let me thank all the hon. Members who spoke on Vote 25 – Local Government Service Commission, especially that they all supported it and they raised a few concerns, which can be summarised as stability of service, delivery, and strengthening of systems, and include Mr Jamba, Mr Menyani Zulu, Mr Darius Mulunda, Mr Gift Sialubalo, Mr Mpundu, the hon. Member for Chembe, as well as my colleague, Mr Tayengwa.

Madam Chairperson, let me quickly respond under two minutes. The issue of competencies seems to be the headline of their debate, including the fact that they were worried about the rampant transfers, some of which they called unjustifiable, to the extent that they said that hon. Members wish to be consulted before transfers were made. I am afraid to say that it is not within the terms of reference for the commission to consult hon. Members of Parliament. The commission does not also consult me as Minister, because it carries out an independent function. It obviously requires to be capacitated so that the information that it has of each and every employee tallies with the position that it gives that employee. Therefore, we can then all be good together, if we capacitate the commission.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of political patronage vis-à-visappointments, or getting employed without qualifications, will be a thing of the past. I can attest to the evidence that was given here about people who are of lesser competencies who were employed in the councils. The commission is vigorously working around this and the examples that were given include the audits that happened in the big cities of this country. There were several revelations regarding for instance how people were taken in at Grade four level, because they did not have the requisite qualifications and then started getting promoted on their way to the top. This matter has been nipped in the bud, and we are quite confident that it will not happen in future.

Madam Chairperson, there was an alarm about commitment to duty, especially in Lusaka, and one hon. Member spoke about the Engineering Department as well as the Finance Department, and the capacity generally of councils to perform the municipal service delivery. It is true that we suffer from flooding, as the example that was given by the debater, the hon. Member of Parliament for Siavonga. I think we should also flip the coin in terms of our cultural behaviour, the way we, as citizens, interface with our environment. It is not a secret that we need to heighten our campaign for people not to litter anyhow because no matter how competent our employees in the councilare, if the citizens continuing dumping plastics for instance, in all the drainages, they will do very little. As a people, we need to have a revolutionary approach to dumping and solid waste management.

Madam Chairperson, charity begins at home. If we can educate our citizens on how to ensure that litter is managed when they are done with whatever they have been eating or consuming, it will form part of a solution.

Madam, as far as the situation is concerned, I think there is no reason certain councils should be broke. There is no reason, for instance, Lusaka City Council should be broke when compared to other jurisdictions that do not have as much development but just generate income from ratings.

Madam Chairperson, the issue from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata on the remuneration of the Local Government Service Commission employees has been noted. It is something that is going to receive active consideration. The positive side or consolation is that now the Emoluments Commission is fully established and instead of that committee of Permanent Secretaries that he is speaking about, the Emoluments Committee, which has now been established and is functional, is going to take up all those roles.

Madam, let me just say I am completely humbled by the hon. Members who debated and those who debated silently in support of the Local Government Service Commission Vote for 2023.

I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry, I was indicating to debate on the next Vote.

Vote 25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29 – (Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development – K6,449,760,989)

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, once again, allow me to express my sincere gratitude to you for according me this opportunity to present a policy statement to this august House on the 2023 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development under Vote 29.

Madam, allow me to also put myself on record with many thanks to all hon. Members of this House for the support that I, personally, and the ministry at large received during the current fiscal year. I am very thankful to the hon. Members.

Madam Chairperson, I stand here to present a statement in line with the 2023 Budget presented to the House by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Musokotwane, which is themed ‘Stimulating Economic Growth for Improved Livelihood’. This theme pertinently speaks to my Ministry’s budget which, as you will note as I go on, is premised on the implementation of the programmes that facilitate equitable growth and social economic development at local level as well as in the rural areas. This is a people-centric or human-centric ministry. Therefore, it requires to be treated delicately.

Madam Chairperson, the 2023 Budget for the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development will be implemented through its mandate to promote and decentralise a devolved and democratic local governance system and facilitate the provision of quality and sustainable municipal services.

Madam, my ministry has set out to implement prioritised programmes and projects that add value to the principles of good local governance, infrastructure development and municipal service delivery for the improved livelihoods of our people. Further, my ministry’s budget is developed in line with the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP) under the human and social development strategic development area.

2022 Budget Performance

Madam Chairperson, my ministry received a total of K4,953,646,717.25 as of October 2022 against an approved estimate of K5,766,013,145 representing a performance of 85.9 per cent of the funds that were released. Further, the grants and transfers in my ministry received varying percentages of releases with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) being funded at 84.93 per cent, while 83.3 per cent of the Local Government Equalisation Fund was released and 100 per cent of the grants in lieu of rates were released as at October, 2022.

Madam, my ministry has been able to utilise the funds released so far in the implementation of various key programmes. However, assimilation of the CDF has been significantly lower than other programmes for reasons that hon. Members on the right and left know. That was anticipated with the CDF hence it being broadened by extent and size from what it was. Therefore, it was anticipated that we were going to inevitably have some teething problems since it was a nouveau initiative. So, through the implementation under this new dispensation, we have learnt a lot of lessons about how we can together move the processes faster for the traction to be much faster and to move them forward. We have put in place measures to improve the CDF performance from the project identification point right up to the approval stages, as I will soon outline in the forthcoming sections of my address.

Madam Chairperson, the 2023 Budget Estimate for the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development is influenced by the following principles:

(a) enhanced provision of resources to the local level;

(b) capacity enhancement of structures at provincial, district and sub district structures in line with the National Decentralisation Policy;

(c) strengthen the participation and monitoring and evaluation of enhanced use of the resources and subsequent improvement in service delivery.

Madam, allow me now to outline the Budget allocations for the ministry that I am privileged to run in line with the foregoing precepts.

Madam Chairperson, the 2023 Budget allocation for the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development stands at K6,449,760,989 compared to K5,766,013,145 for 2022. This represents a minor increment of 13 per cent largely attributed to the increment in the grants. The House may also wish to note that the Government had increased the CDF from K4,015,426,103 in 2022 to K 4,416,968,713 in 2023. Additionally, K300 million was allocated as grants towards the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF).

Madam Chairperson, the ministry’s budget continues to demonstrate the New Dawn Government’s commitment to delivering on its promises and taking resources closer to the people in order to improve the living standards of or citizens. As such, a total of K6.1 billion out of K6.4billionbudget for the ministry accounts for grants to the institutions at the lower levels of Government. This entails that 94 per cent of this ministry’s budget is allocated towards these grants as well as transfers.

Madam Chairperson, allow me now to break down my ministry’s 2023 Budget provisions programme by programme.

Human Settlement Planning Regulation

Madam, following the Government’s emphasis on improved land use management and planning, my ministry allocated K9,660,943 towards facilitating for sustainable human settlements through local authorities. This is in comparison to the K8,522,364 that was allocated last year. The programme will facilitate upgrading squatter settlements or compounds and enhance special planning. Key outputs include development of the national special framework, integrated development plans and local area plans for districts in the country.

Further, Madam Chair, the ministry, the will continue to strengthen development control through enforcement and legislation.

Local Governance

Madam Chairperson, the Government through my ministry has continued to promote the Decentralisation Agenda to enhance local participation of our citizens to access services. Thus, my ministry continues to strengthen its policy and administrative role by providing guidance to local authorities and enhancing their capacities for service delivery. In this regard, K6, 092,547,571has been allocated to the local government programme in the 2023 budget compared to the K5,387,783,712 last year.

Municipal Infrastructure Support Delivery

Madam Chairperson, in line with the Government’s agenda to transform the living standards of our people, my ministry targets to provide a sustainable municipal infrastructure and structural service across the country in all the 116 districts. As such, K71 million has been allocated to the ministry infrastructure and support delivery programme. Under this programme, the ministry will endeavour to provide modern infrastructure for markets as well as bus stations or bus stops.

CustomaryGovernance

Madam, my ministry recognises the key role that traditional leaders pay in the role of governance, decentralisation and democracy.

Madam, to promote their participation in governance, my ministry has allocated K144.8 million to customary governance in 2023 compared to K85 million that was allocated in 2022. The increase in the allocation for this programme will facilitate the completion of chiefs’ palaces and the construction of the new ones in cases where they do not to exist. Further, the Government will facilitate the efficient customary governance through the provision of chiefs’ subsidies, retainers’ wages as well as other benefits.

Rural Development

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has allocated K70 million for the rural development programme in 2023 compared to the K130 million allocated in 2022. The reduction of this figure in allocation will facilitate for rural infrastructure development. Key activities include the construction and rehabilitation of rural crossing points, rural sanitation facilities and community roads. Additionally, my ministry will facilitate …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, please wide up your debate.

Mr Nkombo: I am just at the tail end, Madam Chairperson.

Madam, my ministry will also facilitate the development of local plans for rural settlements in order to enhance rural settlement management.

Madam Chairperson, at this juncture, I am pleading with my hon. Colleagues to support the budget estimates for my ministry for 2023.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kanchibiya): Madam Chairperson, I thank to for according me this opportunity to debate this Vote.

Madam Chairperson, on behalf of the people of Kanchibiya Constituency, I wish to place on record that we support Vote 29, the allocation to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

Madam, allow me to also thank the hon. Minister for coming to Kanchibiya Constituency and we hope that the same invitation can be passed on to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Development to visit the Zampalm Plantation.

Madam, this august House unanimously passed a Private Member’s Motion moved by the people of Kanchibiya and seconded by the people of Nalolo to provide for improved conditions of service for councilors countrywide. It is our hope that as we debate Vote 29, the welfare of the councilors and their resolution that was taken by this august House has been well catered for.

Madam, if that be not the case, we would request that the conditions of service as was unanimously passed by this august House be factored into the K6.4 billion budget allocated to the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development. This is because there cannot be effective decentralisation minus an equipped and well-motivated councilor and they too, deserve a better life.

Madam Chairperson, the promotion of a decentralised local governance system through the operationalisation of the Ward Development Committees (WDCs) is very critical. Where we stand, WDCs, especially in rural areas, do not have the necessary tools for planning as well as for monitoring and evaluation of projects and in this regard, we would make a clarion call that the ministry considers movement of whether it will be bicycles or motorcycles and other things to enable them to play their very important role in decentralisation and also monitoring of crucial projects.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to address myself to cluster one of the National Development Framework; Economic Transformation and Job Creation. It is our position, as people of Kanchibiya, that even as Zambia allocates equal amounts of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) amounts to all constituencies regardless of population, geographical size, or, indeed, poverty levels in constituencies, we are saying that this anomaly ought to be revisited. This is because allocating equal amounts to each constituency is saying “yes” to keeping poorer constituencies at the very bottom of the ladder. Therefore, as rural constituencies, we are ready for metamorphosis. We are ready to drive industrialisation. We are ready to play a critical role in the creation of the millions of jobs that this country needs to create, which jobs would rarely be created in urban constituencies.

Madam Chairperson, as a prerequisite, therefore, rural constituencies will deserve prioritisation when it comes to good road infrastructure, bridges, electricity and communication networks. In the context of the people of Kanchibiya, it is crossing points and bridges like the Alunia Acrow Bridge, the Kaonda Bridge, the Kanchibiya Bridge, the Luchembe Bridge, the Zampalm/Nchubula Road, the Chambeshi/Chinkubo, road among others.

Madam Chairperson, equalisation of development across the country calls for policy intervention to reallocate more resource to needy areas like Shangombo, Mwandi, Kanchibiya, Mfuwe, Chasefu including the people of Tunku and many others that have lagged behind for a variety of reasons.

Madam, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development working with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning ought to ensure that there is improved availability of accurate and detailed socio-economic baseline data to assist in better targeting of development needs, to inform planning needs as well as procedures and in ensuring that there is tracking of progress with regards to implementation. We, therefore, need a mechanism, Madam Chairperson, to help determine whether one constituency needs more support or should get preferential funding in order to reduce poverty and improve government service delivery.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to address myself to Cluster 01 – Economic Transformation and Job Creation,Cluster Outcome 02 – Enhanced Citizenry Participation in the Economy and Strategy 01 – Promotion of Local and Diasporaparticipationin the economy.

Madam Chairperson, the use of local labour and materialsis critical, especially for those of us in rural areas. This goes to allow us to do more with less, and catch-up with what our colleagues in urban areas have been able to achieve. In this regard, in terms of programming and policy, there has to be emphasis on the usage of local materials such as burnt bricks and local contractors, etc.

Madam Chairperson, local contractors in Kanchibiya, and in many other rural constituencies,are making one particular cry that the demand for them to have the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ) qualification is disadvantaging them from accessing participation in these projects. It is the people of Kanchibiya’s appeal to the hon. Minister that theEIZ requirement falls off from the requirements prescribed under the guidelines of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Chairperson, it is also important that as we promote the use of local labour and materials, particular attention is paid to high quality and meeting value for money principles. This is very critical in that we must not compromise quality in our quest to promote local labour and the usage of local materials.

Madam Chairperson the second aspect speaks to the promotion of enterprise development. This, again, is very important. Even as our people desire to play a critical role in the local economy and in local governance, there has to be a deliberate policy to support local entrepreneurs at local level with innovation.This also entails that they must be able to get to an office where they can patent their innovations.

Madam Chairperson, therefore, local governance and the participation of our people would also come to the fore in this regard.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I submit that I support Vote 29.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Member:Akondwela

Mrs Chonya: Yes, it is good relief. I really thought I was not going to debate and was still putting my thoughts together. However, I will talk on one key point.

Madam Chairperson, first of all, I appreciate the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), once again, which keeps going to our constituencies to foster development and empowerment at that level. However, the one key issue that I bring to the attention of the hon. Minister from the people of Kafue, for the lack of a better expression, is the agony that our potential local entrepreneurs and contractors feel. They feel sidelined in the whole process of participating in the different activities and projects that are being supported under the CDF.

Madam Chairperson, according to my understanding, even of the presidential directive, the CDF is supposed to take money from the centre, in Lusaka, down to the most rural parts of our country. Unfortunately, what we have experienced as Kafue, so far, is that all the contracts that are happening in town, somehow, end up being undertaken by other Zambians who are based in Lusaka.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya: This has caused a lot of discontentment by the potential local contractors and the appeal they have made, through me, to the hon. Minister’s office is that the ministry could help to liaise with the Zambia Public Procurement Authority or do something to the legislation that will ensure that local contractors at the local level are able to participate as envisaged by His Excellency when the whole idea of the CDF came into being.

Madam Chairperson, other than that, I would like to just remind the hon. Minister, again, about the submissions that I made much earlier during last year’s Budget when I talked about the need to do the necessary amendments so that hon. Members of Parliament can go back and sit at the council to help with the decision-making process at that level.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya: What has happened to Kafue, which is a subject the hon. Minister is very familiar with, could be one pointer to the absence of other key important players at the level of the council. So, the sooner we dealt with these, the better. This is because, like I debated last time, the monies that are going there are Government monies. If things are not properly managed at that level, it means we will be throwing all these monies and investments into a bottomless pit. It is not in our interest, as the New Dawn, that these monies are not properly accounted for as they should be.

Madam Chairperson, there is also the local government empowerment fund which goes to local councils, on which, as hon. Members of Parliament, we have not been very clear as to what this money is really used for; the component, at least, which does not go to salaries because we know the bulk of it goes to salaries. For the rest of it, it is very difficult for us as hon. Members of Parliament to put our hands on what this money does in our councils, especially when we see the garbage that somebody talked about still pilling in our streets; when we still see the bad roads in our communities and get the blame as hon. Members of Parliament that we are not performing on account of those things which, ideally, are supposed to be done by the local council.

Madam Chairperson, how can we help, really, to enhance the performance o councils apart from the aspect of us going back? How else can the ministry, at that level, further support or continue supporting the existing structure so that it can deliver.

Madam Chairperson, I think I should not continue because the other business,concerning the recent suspension of the Kafue Local Council, remains unfinished. However, if I were to relay the feelings of the people of Kafue, that move has not been very well received, especially at a critical time like this when roads are bad and councillors are expected to run around to attend to issues.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chonya: So, yesterday, I was privileged to interact with the Local Government Administrator who has been put in place. We expect, and hope, that at the end of his tenure with us, we will come back as a stronger council, and well positioned, again, to deliver to the people of Kafue.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Rev. Katuta: Quality!

Mr E. Banda (Muchinga): Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development and encourage him to remain as he is. He is one hon. Minister who receives us very well whenever we go to his office. This has really helped us to deliver. Most of us have no problem with issues to do with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I really thank the hon. Minister that.

Madam Chairperson, I have a few words that I have to add onto the debate on Vote 29 as regards infrastructure. I represent a rural constituency, and just like any other hon. Member who has spoken, I have almost the same issues to put across to the hon. Minister.

Madam Chairperson, with the support that I am giving to Vote 29, I am looking forward to getting some infrastructure development in my rural constituency in terms of crossing-points.We have some roads that are not good, and as a constituency, we can just grade them; we cannot rehabilitate them by maybe gravelling them. We are looking forward to the ministry doing something like this in our constituency. I can mention two roads such as the Chibale/Mukopa Road which is about 18 km. It is in a very bad state. If I were to apply the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to rehabilitating this road, almost half of the total amount would go to that road. I have a 34 km stretch from Kanona to Katota which is also bad. We are trying to work on it but we are looking forward to having support from the ministry.

MadamChairperson, the other thing I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister is the pricing of projects. When it comes to pricing, I think rural constituencies are not going to do much with the CDF. A classroom block which was constructed at maybe, K600,000 or K650,000 in the past, has now been pegged at K1.3 million. This is too much. The cost of a staff house is now coming to around K680,000. This means we are going to spend most of the money on a few projects. Look at the number of teachers that we have been given. Look at the number of health personnel that we have been given. We are really struggling to meet the accommodation demand. So, please, hon. Minister, look into this issue. Sit down with the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) to make sure that the pricing is looked at so that we can do a lot in this area.

Madam Chairperson, I want to make this point to the hon. Minister as he is in charge of chiefs and traditional affairs. I have a challenge in my constituency, and I am speaking on behalf of my chiefs. They do not have transport and this has been a problem for them to move and attend some functions where they have been invited. Sometimes they are invited to attend functionsbut they cannot go. There is the case of the function that took place in Livingstone. One of my chiefs really struggled to find herself there. It took me as an hon. Member of Parliament to drive her from the palace up to Livingstone and back. This is because issues of transport have not been looked at for our chiefs. So, please, hon. Minister, do something for them. At least, I can say we have one house for a chief that was built and handed over but we still have three more chiefs whose palaces have not yet been built. As the people of Muchinga, we are looking forward to this allocationgiving something to our chiefs who have not yet been given houses.With these few remarks, I hope that the hon. Minister is not going to forget us in rural constituencies, especially on infrastructure. We really need his help.

Madam Chairperson, on councillors, like my hon. Colleagues have said, it is very true that for the council to run properly, we need to have effective councillors. Most of our councillors were picked based on having Grade 12 certificates. They do not have businesses and they do not have some mode of transport of their own. Some of them were just coming from school and then they were adopted and then they won as councillors. Hence it is very difficult for them to move around the wards. Some of the wards that are in rural areas are very big and mountainous. So, the ministry should look into the issue of councillors having something that will support their movements. That is really going to make us happy because those councillors are helping us to deliver. As we are here, they are in the wards moving around. This also makes your work easier, hon. Minister, because what we bring to your office is communicated to us through the councillors.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Chairperson:Thank you. I have received a list from the Patriotic Front (PF) and another from the United Party for National Development (UPND).

Mr Kabaso (Mwansabombwe): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much. As I add a word to the debate on Vote 29, let me declare interest and say that I am part of the Committee on Local GovernmentAccounts.

Madam Chairperson, everyone needs to look at what has been happening to the local authorities. It is very sad. Local authorities should be contributing so much to the national Treasury. Let me give an example of Lusaka City Council (LCC). This is a council which has so many sources of revenue, but if you look at what is happening there, you will see that it is a sorry sight. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to look into it.

Madam Chairperson, when it comes to revenue collection and widening the collection base, these councils have issues. Every time we meet people from the councils, when they come to the Committee on Local Government Accounts, the issueswhich they bring up are almost similar to those in every local authority. I come from a rural council and it is in a very worrisome position. If you look at the source of revenue for councils in rural areas, you will see that it is not as wide as that of town councils. I will give an example. When it comes to plots, the value of plots in rural areas is nothing compared to plots in an urban setup. This is another area where we see most of the rural councils not performing in a very good way.

Madam Chairperson, let me touch on the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) now.The CDF hasbrought so many issues when it comes to disbursement, especially when it comes to the procedures which have been put in placefor approving projects and the like. My hon. Colleague from Kafue said that most of our local contractors do not meet the criteria for the projects being advertised by the local authorities. So, it is proving very difficult to be awarded contracts by rural councils. This is why I am asking the hon. Minister to look into theseissues so that our people in the rural areas can also benefit from the CDF which has been increased to K25.7 million.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the Local Government Equalisation Fund. If there was no Local Government Equalisation Fund and the CDF given to the councils, councils would not perform any activities. These are the only things which have made councils to be performing. Had it not been for the Local GovernmentEqualisation Fund, where would the councils get the money to pay their staff? This is one area where the councils should be made to wake up. Imagine a day when the Governmentdecides to remove the Local Government Equalisation Fund, where will the councils be? There would be no more local authorities.So, I urge the hon. Minister and all of us to look into this issue critically.

Madam Chairperson, if you look at the olden days when councils were run by traditional leaders, you will see that the councils were making profit. The situation is totally different now. I will give an example of where I am coming from, Mwansabombwe. When we got independence, the local authority which was run by the Mwata handed over a lot of money to the Government. What is it that the councils are not doing right now? We have so many educated people in the councils now but the councils are not profitable, yet during the colonial days, councils were run by chiefs and people who were appointed but the councils were running effectively.What it is now that we are doing wrong that is making councils not perform to the best of their abilities? I would like to see a situation in which councils declare profits to the Central Government to help it run the economy.In some developed countries,theCentral Government even borrows from the local authorities. So, let us see to it that we get to a point where the councils deliver services to the people they serve.If anything, the councils are closer to the people. Only when we get to a point whereby the councils deliver the services, will we see development move in a very fast and co-ordinated manner.

Madam Chairperson, with those few words, I submit and I support the Vote.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Ms Nyirenda (Lundazi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Lundazi a chance to contribute to the debate onVote 29.

Madam Chairperson,like my friends said, the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development is my second officebecause of the welcome and the Very Important People (VIP) treatment we receive when we visit the ministry.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Nyirenda:Madam Chairperson, if Gary changes the way he welcomes us, we will come here and condemn him.However, I thank him for being ready to receive us. That does not mean –

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Nyirenda, hon. Ministers are addressed by their ministerial positions.

Ms Nyirenda: I repent.

The Chairperson:Can you withdraw the statement.

Ms Nyirenda: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw and replace it with hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development.

Madam Chairperson, I want to bring to the hon. Minister’s attention one thing that we really desire him to put up. In the first place, I support this Vote and I hope we can even give this ministry more. The hon. Minister asked us to get approvals for a year for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). We got approvals for one year in advance, and the money finished because a lot of work needed to be done in some of the constituencies. However, on the Floor of the House,when we ask questions regarding the challenges that we are facing, we are referred to the CDF. Therefore, it is important that theCabinet remembers thatit told all the constituencies to plan for one year, and all the money was utilised.So, when our colleagues tell us to use the CDF, it is the same as saying there is nothing they are ready to do.

Madam Chairperson, indeed, the CDF has been enhanced, but it cannot be used as the answer to everything because all the departmentsare now converging at the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, then what is the Ministry of Health, and the Ministry ofEnergy doing?We cannot all convergeat one ministry, which is the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development,to follow up on the CDF. Yes, it is a good thing, however, we are now abusing it because it is too much.When we require K100 million to work on a bridge, they will tell us that we have the CDF. The CDF is only K25.7 million so how are we going to work on the other projects? This should not be used as a scapegoat. When we are planning for this budget, we are not only planning for the CDF,but for other departments. So, it is important that the hon. Minister informs the other hon. Ministers that the CDF finished when he instructed us to plan for one year.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister should also look into the issue of completely decentralising power. You cannot say, I have given you something, but hold on to it. The hon. Minister has never been to Muthuwanjovu, but I have to goto his office to get approval for a bridge to be constructed in Muthuwanjovu. It seems those letters are just a formality because no one even goes to check where Muthuwanjovu is.As the hon. Minister does the approvals, I think it is important that he looks at that issue.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Lundazi are also concerned about the bus stops. This is where the money can be gotten and the council can be very comfortable. However, the state of our bus stops is really nothing to go home singing about. They are a sorry sight and in the case of Lundazi, you will find that we are the centre. We are catering for Chasefu, Lumezi and other nearby areas, including Chama. However, you find that we do not even have a good bus stop, like the one that has been built in Choma. We need a decent bus stop where people can go and board their buses properly. What is happening is that when the bus arrives at 1600 hours, our people are seated until 0400 hours when they start off. With the rains that are coming, it will be a very sorry sight.

Madam Chairperson, the other thing that I would want to echo is what the hon. Member from Kafue talked about, which is the Equalisation Fund. Your hon. Members of Parliament do not even know how this fund is being used. Yes, part of it is being used for salaries. However, there are no reports reaching the office of the hon. Member of Parliament to help us say yes, it is 20 per cent which has remained and it is being used for such and such.

Madam, there is need for the hon. Minister’s office to collaborate with the office of the hon. Member of Parliament so that things in local government can be worked on and he will be a smiling hon. Minister at the end of the day.

Madam, I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister the issue of the contracts for the local roads, which were signed and have now, maybe, been cancelled or I do not know what is happening. For the hon. Minister’s information, what is obtaining is very sad. You find that now that the rains are about start, our people are going to be cut-off.

Madam Chairperson, some of the contractors have managed to sneak into the hon. Minister’s office claiming to have done some work. However, there is need for the ministry to have a mechanism on the ground to really check with the hon. Member of Parliament because it is us whom the challenges face head-on. It is important that we are asked, so that we can advise whether the works for those contractors in our constituencies are being done.

Madam Chairperson, familiarity breeds contempt. If the hon. Minister does not control the behaviour of – I do not want to call them cadres – some of our brothers and sisters who have a habit of going to the councils to go and protest, they are going to put the lives of the council workers in fear. There is a way that people can request for things, but this idea of someone putting on party regalia, matching to the council and closing off the gates for the council officers, like it happened in Lundazi, is not right.

Madam Chairperson, I want the hon. Minister to note that it is important that he puts his foot down concerning the behaviour of our brothers and sisters. I do not want to call them cadres, but is important that there should be discipline in the party. If we let them loose, one day they will lock the hon. Minister out having secretly moved into Lundazi, which is very bad.

Madam, there must be a channel in which people should be able to air their grievances and they should be able to acknowledge that Zambia is a democratic country. There are those who are in the opposition and those who are ruling. Hence, they must take the hon. Member of Parliament, council chairperson and whoever is there as their friend, whom they can sit with, drink tea with and be able to work with.

Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I say that I totally support this Vote. I thank you.

Mr Siachisumo (Lufwanyama): Madam Chairperson, from the start, I want to support the budget for the Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development which has got six programmes. This ministry is very important and I am very sure the hon. Minister is the right person to head it just as the other hon. Colleagues have said. He has received us so well at the ministry and given us express clearance whenever we visited.

Madam Chairperson, for the six programmes, the ministry has been given K6.4 billion. I know that the ministry has got so many things to cater for such as rural development, custom affairs, infrastructure and many other things that have to be covered.

Madam Chairperson, I want to talk about chiefs; custom affairs. Like in my constituency, I have gotsix chiefs. Houses for chiefs are not pleasing to look at because most of them have been neglected for many years. I can see that there is some money which has been reserved for this cause. It used to be K85 million, but it has now gone to K144 million, which is very good. In Lufwanyama, we expect our chiefs to be taken care of by working on their palaces. I am sure the hon. Ministerhas visited some of them. When you look at the chiefspalaces, including in other areas, you see that they are not okay.

Madam Chairperson, when we talk about allocations to rural development, I know that money has been reduced maybe, because of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) which has been given to us so that we can develop some areas. However, there are some areassuch as Lwabufubu in my constituency, which is about 100 km across. It has got no road. I know that the hon. Minister has allocated a few roads to us in Lufwanyama though the works are not moving at a good pace. We have got the Shananda Road, which is completed but we still have the Mukutuma/Lumpuma Road, the Lumpuma/Mukumbo Road which have taken so long to be completed because of, maybe, the lack of planning by the previous Government which gave a contract to somebody who could not have done a good job. There is a need to look at these roads, going forward, because they are economic roads which our farmers can use to deliver their goods to the market and receive inputs from town to their farms.

Madam Chairperson, rural development is one component which needs to be looked at more especially for us who come from rural constituencies. For instance, although the Sesheke/Mwandi Roadis under the Ministry of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, there are some roads which need to be taken care of.

Madam Chairperson, the CDF is something which we are happy about. I am sure no one can oppose this budget because as hon. Members of Parliament, we are all beneficiaries.

Mr Kafwaya: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Siahisumo: Madam Chairperson, we are so happy including the one who is questioning. We are very happy with the way the hon. Minister disbursed the CDF.We are currently in the third quarter of the year, and I am sure most of us have spent the money for the first and second quarters. We support the allocation of K4.4 billion to CDF. CDF has been so helpful to us as hon. Members of Parliament.

Madam Chairperson, in Lufwanyama we have done quite a number of classrooms like 1x2 classrooms and some clinics under the CDF component. We are really happy with the way the money has been coming. Maybe, there is one component which the hon. Minister has not finished under CDF, which is the loans. The issue of loans is one component that has lagged behind. Maybe, that is why you are hearing some hon. Members saying ‘question’, but there are other components which we are so happy about.

Madam Chairperson, I wanted to make a suggestion on the grants. If we can be allowed to buy fertiliser, oxen and even grinding mills for our people instead of them getting money. This is because in some instances, some people have used this money very well but there are others who have shared the money. Once some of these co-operatives are given money, they share it among themselves.So,we could be given authority to buy items for these peoplejust to make sure that their welfare is improved.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Siachisumo:Madam Chairperson, I have also seen that there is the Keep Zambia Clean Programme. This is a very important area. Sometimes, when I am driving along Lumumba Road, in Lusaka, I see how dirty the road is. This is because it is congested. So, when you mentioned in the budget about Keep Zambia Clean Programme, I was very happy. This component is quite good.

I have seen that there is also an aspect of sensitisation of our people. All we need is to sensitise our people on how to keep our streets clean. Those of us who went to Rwanda, such as my sister from Chikankata,the hon. Member for MonguCentraland others, were so amazed at how they are keeping their towns and roads. You cannot even see a piece of paper being dropped.

Madam Chairperson, this aspect of sensitising peopleis good. This will enable us to keep our towns clean and live in a clean environment.

Thehon. Minister also mentioned the idea of a green and healthy environment. There are places like Kankoyo, parts of Kitwe like Wusakile, where my friend Hon. Kalabo comes from, and many other areas where you find that trees do not grow. So, there is need to make sure that a healthy and green environment is improved. Climate change is really something which is changing our lives.

Madam Chairperson, I support this budget and thank the Hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development on the way the 2022 Budgetwas implemented. It has been so well implemented and I support the Budget for 2023.

Hon. Government Members: Hear,hear!

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Chairperson, as I comment on Vote 29. I first want to acknowledge and appreciate the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) which, at this time, I think is at 75 per cent. I wish we could continue having the same next year and the other year so that we can move projects, especially us who are coming from less developed constituencies which are very big.

Madam Chairperson, let me appeal to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development to look at the needs of our Ward Development Committees (WDCs) chairpersons. You may wish to note that we have wards in our rural constituencies which are as big as Lusaka District. That is just one single ward. For a chairman, representing sections, to have a meeting with a ward chairman,he/she uses more than K100. It is very expensive. You know thatrural transport is very expensive. My thinking is that the hon. Minister can see what he can do. I know he will make a plan on this one. He should come up with something on the administration of the money so that those people are also looked at. If it means us buying those bicycles for them,we should, as that will help.

Madam Chairperson, with the good idea the Government has brought,of training our youths in different skillssuch as bricklaying, carpentry, welding, electrical and different trades,in the next few years, we are going to have a cadre of graduates from trade schools with nothing to do. Those who are coming out of bricklaying with some experience, we are telling them that they need to get the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ)Certificate and we know how expensive and tedious it is to get EIZ certificate. Do we need an EIZ certificate just for constructing a Ventilated Improved Pit (VIP) latrine, when in rural areas, bricklayers have constructed such toilets. People are demanding for all sorts of statutory needs, which are not even needed when constructing a toilet because there is money at the local authority. Yes, these people are qualified because they have been to trades schools. So, I think we need to waive that requirement out and leave for it for bigger projects.

Madam Chairperson, yes, when tendering for bigger projects, the EIZ certificate is needed. We do not need that for constructing a VIP toilet when a good number of schools in my constituency have no toilets. I can give a practical example of Natubanda Primary School in Petauke where there is no toilet. It is now that we are putting a toilet at the school. Now, how are we going to work if we have to wait for the EIZ to do the sitting? That will take us three months to do our work, when we can construct the same toilet within a month. So, we need to look at that issue so that it is changed.

Madam Chairperson, I was looking at the 2023 Budget, Infrastructure Development which is at K70 million. However, looking at a constituency like Nyimba Constituency, it is the biggest constituency, and the second biggest district in the Eastern Province. It is so vast and sits on 10,565 km². So, looking at the needs of the constituency, the money for planning, which has reduced to K3 million is nothing. I am wondering. The hon. Minister needs to go back and plan. Some of our areas are unplanned. So, we need to start planning these areas. The Budget allocated for Infrastructure Development has gone down to K70 million and the hon. Minister may wish to note that we do not have a sewer system in our district. At the rate which Nyimba is growing, we may have some water borne diseases. So, we need to start looking at how we are going to come up with sewer ponds, and see to it that the district starts to develop to a better district.

Madam Chairperson, our district is the only one in the province, if not the entire country, where motorist contributes toll fees, but we have no tarmac other than the Great East Road, which passes through town. There is no other tarmac off the Great East Road. The tollgate is situated within the constituency. It is located 30 km on the other side of the constituency and 156 Km on the other. So, it is very difficult for people to appreciate the need of paying toll fees.

So, I know the hon. Minister is capable of doing something. He should see to it that we are assisted with at least 10 km of township roads. The people of Nyimba will appreciate that. If the people of Nyimba are given a stretch from the Great East to the Hospital and to the newly repaired mortuary, and from Great East Road to Nyimba Secondary School, they will be very grateful. The three distances combined is less than 5 km. So, the wish of the people of Nyimba is that money allocated to infrastructure development is increased so that they get something out of it. Surely, we all understand that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) cannot construct even 2 km of tarmac road. My prayer is that the hon. Minister looks at us with pity so that the district is also helped out.

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Menyani Zulu: She is a graduate of Nyimba Secondary. She understands what I am taking about.

Madam Chairperson, the district is so big. So, we wish Nyimba District can have two constituencies since the ministry is considering undertaking the delimitation exercise next year and this appeal is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President. There are small districts in the Eastern Province with two constituencies while there is one constituency in Nyimba, which is two times bigger geographically and has a big population. What have the people of Nyimba done wrong in this country? My wish is that the New Dawn Government looks at this and helps out.

I think you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we have to make progress. Some hon. Members mentioned that the hon. Minister is very accommodating, so if you have issues, you can visit his office.

The hon. Minister of Local Government and Rural Development, wind up debate.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, allow me, once again, to thank the hon. Members who debated in support of our Budget. Like I said earlier, this is a people-centric ministry that touches every corner, even the bottom part of our social strata. I am very thankful for the kind words from the hon. Members who debated and exposed that I run an open-door policy at my office and everybody who goes there gets a fair share of attention.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Chanda was very clear and passionate about the welfare of councillors and I truly share his views. His brought up this matter before and the Government responded to it. Now that we have activated the Emoluments Commission, we will certainly look at the councillors. The councillors must never be looked at as a stepping stone for other people because the issues that he brings – if there were no councillors or if there was a gap between the Member of Parliament and the councillor, the Member of Parliament would definitely fail to perform his/her role.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: So, in the line of duty, they are just as important as Members of Parliament and they must be viewed as such.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member raised the issue about tracking projects. I wish we could all speak this same language. It is important for him to know that this morning at 0900 hours, I was summoned to the High Court of Zambia because somebody said that we should not procure monitoring vehicles. I do not know how hon. Members take that, but I think there is some mischief by the person who is contending that we have not consulted …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

We want to hear what the hon. Minister is talking about.

Mr Nkombo: … Members of Parliament in our quest to make their jobs easy when undertaking monitoring and evaluation. It is saddening to learn that there are some Members of Parliament who may come to be witnesses when I am put on the stand concerning the procurement of project monitoring vehicles. However, I am equal to the task. I will go there and represent all those well-meaning hon. Members of Parliament.

Madam Chairperson, I take the views of the hon. Member for Kafue as my own that in areas where we do not have enough capacitated business people, they seem to be crowded out by those who have been doing business for a long time and have National Council for Construction (NCC) and Engineering Institution of Zambia (EIZ) certificates, some of which may have been obtained based on political patronage. This is precisely what my problem is, as I address the issue that my sister, Hon. Brenda Nyirenda, mentioned concerning the road sector in rural areas. We have said this many times before that we are facing these challenges because there was connivance between the directors of works and constructors. They cut Interim Payment Certificates (IPCs) for jobs that were not done so the ministry was bleeding. Money is owed, yet no work was done. This is –

The Chairperson: Order!

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1842 hours until 0990 hours on Friday, 18^th November, 2022

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