Tuesday, 11^th October, 2022

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF UGANDA

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following hon. Members and staff from the Parliament of Uganda and staff from the Office of the Auditor-General in that country:

Hon. Opolot Isiagi, MP                        -           Chairperson of the Budget Committee

Hon. Medard Ssggona Lubega, MP   -           Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee

Hon. Jane Pacuto, MP,                       -           Vice Chairperson of Committee on Finance Planning and Economic

                                                                         Development                                                  

Hon. Paul Omara, MP                                    

Hon. Xavier Kyooma, MP

Hon. Ochai Maxwell, MP

Mr Muhumuza Maurice                      -           Clerk to Committee

Mr Kateregga Stephen                      -           Assistant Auditor General

Bonabana Caroline                           -           Assistant Director, Legal Services

Mr Musana Samuel                          -           Manager Parliamentary Liaison Officer

I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

Thank you.

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MATTERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE

MR SAMPA, HON. MEMBER FOR MATERO, ON MR TAYALI, HON. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND LOGISTICS, ON VIDEO SHOWING PANIC ON A FLIGHT FROM NDOLA TO LUSAKA

Mr Sampa (Matero): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, my matter of urgent public importance is directed at the Minister of Transport and Logistics, Hon. Frank Tayali.

Madam Speaker, social media is full of videos showing a flight from a few days ago, from Ndola to Lusaka. In the video, passengers are putting on oxygen masks and a child is heard screaming. Passengers are seen covering their ears from the pressure of the plane.

Madam Speaker, the flight from Ndola to Lusaka makes a turn in the constituency called Matero, as it approaches the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA).

Mr Speaker, we are all keen to get airlines to do business, employ people and make profit. However, when lives are in danger, it is a matter of concern, and the public needs to know what happened.

Madam Speaker, is the Government, and the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics, in particular, in order to keep quiet and not address or tell the nation which flight that was and what circumstances led to the masks dropping? I have seen that in movies, but in reality, I have never ever experienced it. Personally, I have been on over 100 flights and never experienced that. So, what must have transpired and why? When the Government keeps quiet, it leads to speculation.

Madam, is the hon. Minister of Transport and Logistics in order to keep quiet and not tell the nation which flight that was and why there was that panic? If it is admissible, I have a flash with that video for the use of Parliament.

MR JAY E. BANDA, HON. MEMBER FOR PETAUKE CENTRAL, ON DR MUSOKOTWANE, HON. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND NATIONAL PLANNING, ON WHY BANKS DO NOT ALLOW DEPOSITS OF MORE THAN US$5,000

Mr J. E. Banda (Petauke Central): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr J. E. Banda: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving the good people of Petauke Central this opportunity to add their voice on urgent matters. This matter is directed at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Speaker, a businessman from Petauke Central came to Lusaka and went to a bank with US$30,000 so that he could deposit it. In the bank, he was told that he could deposit only a US$5,000. He deposited that US$5,000 and remained with US$25,000. When he walked out of the bank to go to the car park, he was attacked and robbed of the US$25,000.

Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is: Why did the bank not allow someone to deposit more than US$5,000? As it is now, businessmen from Petauke are now scared to come to Lusaka because they know that banks do not allow depositing such amounts of money. So, why is that when it is also money and the bank is the safest place where we can keep money?

MR KATAKWE, HON. MEMBER FOR SOLWEZI EAST, ON MRS MASEBO, HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, ON THE ALERT FROM WHO ON CONTAMINATED COUGH MIXTURES KILLING CHILDREN

Mr Katakwe (Solwezi East): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Katakwe: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for giving the people of Solwezi East an opportunity to raise a matter of urgent public importance. Last week, the World Health Organisation (WHO) alerted the world about contaminated cough mixtures for paediatrics and about sixty-six cases of children in Gambia who died after taking the same.

Madam Speaker, I raise this matter on the hon. Minister of Health. Is the nation of Zambia aware of the following brands of cough syrup: Kofexmalin Baby Cough Syrup, Makoff Baby Cough Syrup, Magrip N Cold Syrup and Promethazine Oral Solution? Are these four drugs that have been cited as contaminated on our shelves in various parts of our country? If at all they are, what immediate measures is the ministry taking to recall them so that our children’s lives are protected? These drugs are posing a danger to kidneys and causing their malfunctioning. What is being done before we begin to lose our children in Zambia?

Madam Speaker, I seek your indulgence.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. Do you have evidence of that incident?

Mr Katakwe: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Mr Katakwe laid a document on the Table. 

MR MULEBWA, HON. MEMBER FOR KAFULAFUTA ON WHETHER GOVERNMENT WOULD GIVE HON. MEMBERS THE CHANCE TO SELECT SOME CANDIDATES FROM THEIR CONSTITUENCIES DURING GOVERNMENT RECRUITMENTS

Mr Mulebwa (Kafulafuta): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mulebwa: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I wish I could use a different term for my issue. I read somewhere, yesterday, that the Zambia Army, the Zambia Police Service and the Zambia National Service (ZNS) will be recruiting personnel very soon, and I was left with no choice, but to look back at the good work that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government has done in employing more than 30,000 teachers and 11,000 plus medical personnel.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulebwa: Madam Speaker, this was a tremendous piece of work, but it is not a secret that some places where found to have some flaws. For example, there were teachers who graduated in 2016 who were not employed, and yet others who graduated in 2019 or 2020 were employed. I was wondering whether we, as hon. Members of Parliament, could be accorded an opportunity to recommend a certain percentage of people under these opportunities that are coming.

Madam Speaker, I know that Kafulafuta is smaller than Matero; so I would not contend that the number that the Government gives Matero is what must be given to Kafulafuta, but my reasoning is that it would help us strike a balance for the opportunity to take some applications and recommend certain people from our constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

MR TWASA, HON. MEMBER FOR KASENENGWA, ON MRS MASEBO, HON. MINISTER OF HEALTH, ON PERSISTENT SHORTAGE OF DRUGS IN HEALTH FACILITIES

Mr Twasa (Kasenengwa): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Twasa: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I am rising on a matter that I have raised about twice before. However, this is a matter which borders on our lives. This is about life and death.

Madam Speaker, we have had so many people asking us questions on this matter. I arrived this morning around 0200 hours from my constituency, and the prominent question this time around was not about wonkesa, the Budget. It was about “Ko a Twasa mweo, chuchita mu chipatala nichinji? Kuliye mankwala.” What is happening in the health centres? There is no medicine?

Today, there is an article in the Daily Nation saying “UTH Labs in Coma.”

This is a matter, Madam Speaker, that the hon. Minister of Health has addressed on the Floor of the House, severally. Last week, she was on the Floor talking about insulin, specifically as regards Kaoma in the Western Province. She also touched on the general supply of medicines in hospitals, but the matter keeps coming up. My question to the hon. Minister is: Are there people who are working against her as an individual or as an entity, the New Dawn Government?

Madam Speaker, on paper, the hon. Minister says health centres are well-equipped or stocked, but on the ground, people are saying there is no medicine. Who is sabotaging the people of Zambia? Who is sabotaging the New Dawn Government? Who is telling the truth? People want to know. Records are saying there is medicine in pharmacies and health centres, but the situation on the ground is totally different. Where is the problem? Shall we go on being addressed on matters that do not really yield answers on the ground?

Madam Speaker, I think there is a big problem, which the hon. Minister and other interested stakeholders need to address. Otherwise, this matter will keep on coming up every day. Could it be the tabloid alarming the nation?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Twasa: Okay. If that is the case, then necessary measures are supposed to be taken. If not, stringent measures also have to be taken so that the people of Zambia are well-served according to their expectations when they cast their vote.

MR MUMBA, HON. MEMBER FOR KANTANSHI, ON MR KABUSWE, HON. MINISTER OF MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT, ON CONCERNS OF JUNK STATUS OF ZCCM-IH STOCK ON EURONEXT

Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): On a matter of urgent public importance, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A matter of urgent public importance is raised.

Mr Mumba: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I also rise on a matter of urgent public importance, and I direct it at the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Madam Speaker, you are fully aware that mining is the backbone of our economy. The Budget was very clear that 47 per cent of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP) comes from the mining sector.

Madam Speaker, there are concerns that have arisen from minority shareholders in the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH). They refer to our listing on the Euronext Stock Exchange, which is a platform where the ZCCM-IH can raise capital to invest in the mining sector, as it is the one that oversees our mines. Additionally, it is listed on the Lusaka Stock Exchange (LUSE), where fears are being raised that it might end up being delisted. Our stocks on the Euronext market have been declared as junk and the next step will be delisting.

Madam Speaker, I seek your guidance on whether the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is in order to remain silent over such an important issue, which would definitely have an effect on our economy, especially now that the Government is actively looking for financiers to invest in the Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) Plc and, eventually, in the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) Plc?

I seek your serious indulgence on this matter, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

I will start with the matter raised by the hon. Member for Matero about a flight from Lusaka to Ndola in which oxygen masks were seen dropped on passengers.

Hon. Member, I am sure the Government is aware of that situation. Therefore, that issue does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance. However, you are advised to use other modes of asking questions, such as an urgent question that would be responded to within forty-eight hours. Otherwise, this issue does not qualify to be raised as a matter of urgent public importance.

The hon. Member for Petauke Central complained over banks only allowing deposits of a maximum of US$5,000 and, because of that, somebody was robbed of some money after failing to deposit US$30,000 in the bank.

Hon. Member, this matter does not qualify to fall under matters of urgent public importance because we all know the law when it comes to the handling of foreign currencies. There is a law in the country which limits people’s handling of foreign currency. Therefore, you also can make use of other avenues to raise this question or, indeed, you can visit the hon. Minister for you to get more information about the law pertaining to the limit on amounts of foreign currencies that people are supposed to bank.

The hon. Member for Solwezi East complained about some medicine that was said to be contaminated and has posed danger to children.

This, indeed, is a matter of urgent public importance. We do not want to lose children in the country. So, I ask the hon. Minister of Health to come up with a ministerial statement by Friday to update the nation on the four drugs that are causing danger to our children.

The hon. Member for Kafulafuta read somewhere that the Zambia National Service (ZNS), the Zambia Police and the Zambia Army will be recruiting very soon.

I do not know whether that information is verified because we have not seen any advert in the newspapers. Usually, positions are advertised, but this time around, I have not seen any advert. I looked at today’s newspapers, but I did not see anything. So, I am not really sure whether the source of that information is verified. However, if, indeed, the source of information is verified, you can raise a question. This does not fall under matters of urgent public importance.

Hon. Members, in fact, even the way you are raising these matters matters, you are raising them in form of questions. Matters of urgent public importance are supposed to be statements, not questions. The way the hon. Member asked qualifies it to be a question and not a matter of urgent public importance. So, we cannot admit that one under matters of urgent public importance.

The hon. Member for Kasenengwa, when raising the issue, even said he had raised it more than twice in this Parliament. We are saying that matters of urgent public importance are not supposed to be repeated, especially in the same sitting. There are no drugs in hospitals, but the hon. Minister of Health has come to this House on several occasions to update hon. Members on various issues pertaining to the drug situation in hospitals.

So, hon. Member for Kasenengwa, for this matter, I advise you to come up with an urgent question that could be attended to by the hon. Minister within forty-eight hours on the Floor of this House. The hon. Minister has already given several ministerial statements over the drug situation in the country.

The last one was the matter raised by the hon. Member for Kantanshi regarding the stock exchange in the mining sector.

Again, hon. Member, this is not a matter of urgent public importance. There is nothing serious about this matter that threatens the lives of the people of Zambia. So, I advise you to use other avenues of dealing with the issue that you raised.

I thank you.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO (DRC) AND ZAMBIA BORDER CRISIS

The Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation (Mr. Kakubo): Madam Speaker, I, first of all, thank you for this opportunity to present to this august House a statement on a matter of utmost importance regarding measures that have been taken by the Government of the Republic of Zambia to ensure the safety and security of its nationals at its borders with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), particularly at Kasumbalesa and Mokambo. This is in line with the directive given by Madam Speaker following the intervention through a point of order that was raised by the Member of Parliament for Shiwang’andu Constituency, Hon. Stephen Kampyongo.

Madam Speaker, let me state from the outset that the Government was saddened to learn about the loss of lives of truck drivers who were allegedly beaten and shot dead in the DRC as, indeed, any loss of life is disheartening. I, therefore, wish to extend my deep and heartfelt sympathy, on behalf of the Zambian Government, to the families of the deceased.

Madam Speaker, our missions, in both Lubumbashi and Kinshasa, commenced consultative meetings with Government officials in the DRC following the security concerns on the ground.

Madam Speaker, let me also take this opportunity to state that investigations so far have revealed that one of the two drivers that were reported on in the media, died at a hospital in Kolwezi where he was admitted after a bout of malaria while the other, who was also reported on in the media, was found dead in his truck. The nearby health institution where he was rushed indicated in its report that our national had suffered a heart attack while driving along the Kamoa/Kolwezi Road on 23^rd September, 2022.

Madam Speaker, when these incidents took place, amongst others, Zambian truck drivers reacted by protesting and refusing to cross the border as they requested that their security concerns be immediately addressed.

Madam Speaker, the reasons for staging these protests included the following:

1. the lack of security, as truck drivers are attacked for their money, food and other personal belongings;
2. exorbitant charges applied at every checkpoint, including illegal ones;
3. the lack of medical care when drivers fall ill outside our borders; and
4. in the event of death, it is usually difficult to repatriate the bodies of deceased persons from the DRC into Zambia.

Madam Speaker, it is due to the highlighted reasons that truck drivers decided not to enter the neighbouring DRC until these security issues were dealt with in order to protect them.

Madam Speaker, arising from the background that we have provided, there was no movement of trucks northbound into the DRC, which led to many trucks being marooned on the Zambian side of the border although southbound trucks from the DRC to the Zambian side were flowing.

Madam Speaker, the non-movement of the northbound traffic made the Zambian side of the border develop long queues meandering all the way down through Chililabombwe, Chingola and Chambishi.

Madam Speaker, it is worth noting that the Mokambo Border Post in Mufulira was also affected by protesting drivers citing similar security concerns. This led to a huge congestion of trucks bound for the DRC stretching more than 2 km.

Madam Speaker, I wish to report to the august House that the President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency Mr Hakainde Hichilema, on 4^th October, 2022, had a telephone conversation with his counterpart, His Excellency Félix Antoine Tshisekedi Tshilombo, President of the DRC, regarding the highlighted concerns. Thereafter, further engagements with our counterparts from the DRC continued with the Zambian side being led by the hon. Minister of Defence, together with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the hon. Provincial Minister for the Copperbelt Province.

Madam Speaker, as hon. Members of the House may be aware, our Government continues to enjoy cordial relations with the DRC. Therefore, measures have been put in place to ensure that we have a permanent solution to the problem.

Madam Speaker, as of 6^th October, 2022, the following resolutions were reached and agreed to by the two sides to kick-start this process:

1. in order to reduce the congestion of trucks at the border, it was resolved that as at 6^th October, 2022, at 6 am in the morning, trucks would begin to cross the border. This has begun;
2. the Government of the DRC assured the Zambian Government that vehicles would be deployed to conduct patrols on a twenty-four-hour basis through Kasumbalesa, Lubumbashi, Likishi and the Kolwezi Corridor to ensure the safety of transiting drivers;
3. the creation of an SOS green line that would be used by truck drivers to communicate and raise security alerts within the DRC when problems arose. However, our Government still remains concerned about the timely response when alerts are made;
4. radio-active scanners at entry points will now be switched off in order to allow drivers to disembark their trucks before scanning is conducted. This is important; and
5. the two sides agreed to jointly monitor the security situation constantly and to ensure regular communication between the two Governments.

Madam Speaker, I wish to further indicate that our mission in Kinshasa DRC and our consulate in Lubumbashi have been closely monitoring the situation on the ground and are also engaging senior Government officials on both the DRC and the Zambian sides in order to ensure that what was agreed upon between the two Heads of State is carried out.

Madam, ensuring the security of our people, especially our Zambian drivers, across the borders following these concerns is a priority to this Government. We would like to commend our drivers for their bravery and also proactively providing information to the Zambian Government regarding their concerns on their safety.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I wish to assure the House and the Zambian citizenry that the Government is working tirelessly to ensure that law enforcement officers on our side are involved in this process of ensuring that the safety of our people is guaranteed and normalcy resumes. As it is, trucks have started to flow and, as the Government, we will continue to monitor the situation closely.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

Mr J. Chibuye (Roan): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that elaborate and clear statement. It is not the first time that there has been such an impasse at the border, especially at the Kasumbalesa Border, between the two countries.

Madam Speaker, he stated that apart from the two deaths, from Malaria and a heart attack, our drivers are beaten and shot at. With the resolutions that he has stated, could he assure the nation, the drivers and this august House that there will be a permanent solution for these disruptions that have happened from time to time?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the safety of our truck drivers, as mentioned in the statement, is a serious issue. That is why you saw that the President himself, our Republican President, engaged his counterpart.

Madam Speaker, the initiative started on the Zambian side and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation facilitated it. What followed was high-level representation from the Zambian Government side which was led by the hon. Minister of Defence. This shows the importance that we have attached to this matter.

Madam, the DRC is outside our borders. One of the ways we are ensuring the safety of our drivers is to have constant rapport and communication with the DRC Government. The safest place, of course, is within our borders, but we want to assure our Zambian nationals that they are not alone when they leave the borders. The Government will do everything it can to ensure that its people are safe. However, we want to tell the drivers to remain cautious and alert and follow the guidelines that have been put in place by our mission in the DRC.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker called on Mr Simushi but he was unavailable.

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Madam Speaker, we appreciate the hon. Minister for the statement he has issued. Indeed, as the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan said, the security challenge of our Zambian drivers and other Southern African Development Community (SADC) drivers across the border has always been there. What is important is to put measures in place to continue monitoring the situation, as the hon. Minister stated.

Madam Speaker, among the permanent platforms that the hon. Minister is supposed to utilise are the Joint Permanent Commissions (JPC) at both national and regional levels, where there are Joint Permanent Commissions on Politics, Defence and Security. Through that, he is supposed to be having constant engagement, especially now that our neighbours will be going to elections very soon.

So, how active are the JPCs at national and regional levels to ensure that the security situation around our borders is guaranteed? How active are these platforms?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. Colleague from Shiwang’andu for that very important question. I would like to report to the House that the last Joint Permanent Commission (JPC) between the DRC and Zambia actually met only three months ago. That shows that, obviously, the JPC is active because it was renewed.

Madam Speaker, in addition, our President is the Deputy Chairperson of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Organ on Politics, Peace and Security and the President of Namibia is the current Chairperson. That organ is responsible for peace in the region. This, therefore, shows the level at which Zambia has influence on regional peace and the importance it attaches to it.

I thank the hon. Member that he has actually been following these issues through the JPC engagements, and so on and so forth. It is a very important arm, and Zambia recently renewed it. In fact, just last week, Zambia renewed another JPC within the SADC region with Namibia. This week on Friday, I will be signing, on behalf of the Zambian Government, a renewed JPC with Tanzania.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sampa (Matero): Madam Speaker, I congratulate the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation on his recent marriage. As the Bible says, he who finds a wife finds a good thing.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Sampa: Madam Speaker, as regards the Kasumbalesa Border, to me, that is business as usual. Thanks to latest technology and social media, this issue has come up because that truck driver took a video to show that they were under attack and posted it. In the social media era, all of us are our own cameramen, reporters, editors and publishers.

Madam Speaker, at Kasumbalesa Border, it is total chaos every day, and most of it is not reported. I have been there. There is so much chaos and it is rumoured that it is deliberately sponsored by some big fish, both on the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Zambian sides; I do not mean the hon. Minister. It is sponsored for purposes of tax evasion.

Madam Speaker, my funso or my question is: What is this Government doing to bring sanity to that border not only for drivers, but also for our people, the traders? What is it doing to also ensure that the treasury does not lose out on revenue?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament (laughs) for Matero for the congratulatory message. It was not long ago when he also took to the aisle. So, he has welcomed me to the club.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, as regards the substantive part of the question, indeed, there are concerns on our borders, and not just at the Kasumbalesa Border. The reason for that is that over the years, there has been little investment to ensure that we formalise trade with our neighbours.

Madam Speaker, it is for this reason that the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, has said, countless times, that trade between Zambia and countries like the DRC is not actually smuggling. It should be formalised. To do that, we need actual investments, and the Government has already reached an advanced stage, especially at the Kasumbalesa Border, to ensure that infrastructure and storage facilities are improved and the platforms on which tax is paid are in sync and human intervention is reduced.

Madam Speaker, as regards the issue that the hon. Member has raised, that Government or top officials are sponsoring unlawful things there, I cannot comment. It is pure speculation unless the hon. Member of Parliament can provide evidence for our investigative wings to investigate. Otherwise, I am not aware.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Menyani Zulu (Nyimba): Madam Speaker, I think we all understand that transport and logistics is the lifeblood of every economy. In our case, if we look at what is happening in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) – firstly, I declare interest because I am one of the victims of the situation in the DRC. I have had one of my trucks ceased without any compensation.

Madam Speaker, in the ‘jungle’, for the lack of a better word, law or police service in the DRC and the set up of the whole system, when one is beaten or killed, they give you a report that the person was sick.

Madam Speaker, two days ago, a truck had a breakdown; the driver was beaten and money was taken away from him. Luckily, the lorry boy came to his rescue and the other trucks went onto the scene. I get reports on the DRC happenings every day in the transport business.

Madam Speaker, has the Government come up with a system to tell our colleagues in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) that the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Transport should be respected? What has been happening at the transport or logistics level is that we have the SADC Protocol which each and every country should respect to avoid what is happening. In the Government’s discussions to ensure that citizens are protected, did it invite the SADC Drivers Association?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, as partly indicated in the statement that I issued, the discussions that occurred between Zambia and the DRC were extremely high level. It is not only the Zambian drives who are affected, but other drivers who enter the DRC and get out.

Madam Speaker, other neighbouring countries have also been having discussions with the DRC to discuss the security concerns that we all share with regard to our drivers in the DRC. These are countries that are within the SADC region.

Madam Speaker, I can only give an assurance that yes, we are consulting within SADC and also, I can give a firm position that SADC was represented at the meetings. So, I think we are on course.

I request the hon. Member to give the Government a chance to deal with the current situation. I agree with hon. Members who have said that the issues at Kasumbalesa Border have been ongoing. This used to happen even in Governments before ours, but we are committed, to ensuring that no more lives are lost and that all the concerns that have been raised with us by drivers are dealt with to ensure their safety.

Madam Speaker, it is for this reason that interventions were not only done at ministerial level, but also our President, Mr Hichilema, actually made a call to his counterpart. This issue is being dealt with at the highest level possible between the countries. The instructions that we have received as hon. Ministers, technocrats and staff in the ministries are clear and we are proceeding with the programme.

If the hon. Member of Parliament has any additional ideas, he is, of course, welcome to consult with me. He can come to the office or I can go to him so that we discuss the matter for any additional advice that he is willing to give.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Lubozha (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister clearly indicated that according to our counterparts in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), they established the cause of death of our two beloved drivers in the DRC to be malaria and heart failure.

Madam Speaker, on our side, did the Government take a step also to re-establish, by carrying out investigations, whether these deaths surely were caused as alleged? Did we establish the position to give our colleagues in the DRC and to tell them that their investigations were wrong and that our people were surely killed? After that, we could urge them to find a better platform, together with us, at which we can bargain and trade as brothers.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, our mission in Lubumbashi was key to the process of investigation. Investigations have gone on and the body of one of the deceased was actually repatriated back home and was put to rest by the family. Before that was done, the Government did investigate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Nakaponda (Isoka): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the drivers died from disease. However, a video showed those people being beaten by soldiers from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Could it be that they died due to internal injuries? They must have suffered internal injuries and that is why they died.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I hope I saw the videos the hon. Member saw. Particularly, there were two videos that we identified in recent weeks which, by the standard of social media, the Zambian victims were tortured and killed. We went further to investigate and isolated the two individuals who passed away, may their souls rest in peace. What we found out is what we have reported. However, this does not mean that we do not have any security concerns in the DRC.

We are looking at all issues, but as regards the two drivers who were under discussion in the last seven to fourteen days, they were isolated incidences. We followed them up, as the Government, using our missions and other investigative wings. What we found and the report that we have is that one died of malaria and the other had a heart attack while he was driving on the road. However, again, for emphasis, we are aware that there are issues of concern on the DRC side and only the two incidences were separate.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker called upon Mr Twasa, but he was unavailable.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Thank you, most kindly, Madam Speaker. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation has informed the House, as well as the nation, on steps that have been taken to prevent this matter from recurring. In his statement, there are about four to five steps that have been identified.

Madam Speaker, I note from the four or five points that have been listed that there was no mention of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) taking a strong stance on this particular matter when the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) remains a market not only for today, but also for the future. Maybe I missed the point.

Madam Speaker, my follow-up question to the hon. Minister is: Is SADC taking a strong stance against the DRC for the misconduct of its officers and everyone else involved? I am sure by now we have identified which side the problem is.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, of course, as member states of SADC, we are concerned. However, it is also important to note that SADC does not always take action in a block fashion. A typical example in mind is when SADC members vote on any particular issue, it does not vote as a block. So, every Member State also has a mandate to protect its own borders and citizens, not necessarily as a block, but as an individual country. Suffice it for me to mention that yes, there are concerns around SADC, and we are consulting each other. However, in this particular incidence, it was clear that our drivers are the ones who raised alarm. So, we had to move in quickly and not wait for SADC, but, of course, SADC is concerned.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that two of the reasons that were stated by the drivers these problems arose were, firstly, exorbitant charges and, secondly, the lack of medical care. In the measures that have been taken by the joint Governments, these were not mentioned. Was there a special reason for that?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, on the first issue of fees, I think it is important for us to realise that every country sets its own fiscal position and how it raises its money. Each country sets its own tariffs and tax structure. We can only influence that to a certain level where we can negotiate within SADC.

Madam Speaker, secondly, on issues to do with medicals, we can more or less guarantee the medical assurances that we can give inland. Let us realise that when our colleagues drive through the borders, they physically leave the country. The infrastructure that we have in Zambia is not always possible in other countries. So, it was deliberately not mentioned because this part of the discussion is still ongoing looking at the fact that the situations in the DRC and Zambia are totally different.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will get the last three questions from the hon. Member for Mbabala, the hon. Member for Chama South and the hon. Member for Chimwemwe, in that order.

The hon. Member for Mbabala Constituency may proceed.

Mr Munsanje (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, I withdraw and just congratulate the hon. Minister on his marriage.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, I congratulate those who are marrying late. I will not do that.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: You marry when you are still a youth.

Mr Muchima: Jealousy!

Mr Mung’andu: It is not jealousy. Do not marry, because you are too old, Ba Muchima.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, what is your question? There is nothing about marriage in the ministerial statement.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is your question?

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, I am worried because Hon. Muchima might divorce my mother. He should not remarry.

Madam Speaker, those truck drivers protesting at Kasumbalesa Border are not all Zambians. I heard Malawian and Zimbabwean accents. There are so many trucks, which I believe involve the entire Southern African Development Community (SADC) countries. Yes, the border is between Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), but has the Government contacted other Heads of State in the region to ensure that these issues are not only between Zambia and the DRC, but a concern also of other countries in the region, so that the voice is amplified?

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I am not sure whether the hon. Member paid attention when we discussed the involvement of SADC in these matters.

Mr Nkandu: He has just come in.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, we gave that assurance already. However, what is true from what he has said is that, it is, of course, a busy border, and many trucks have passed since traffic resumed. About 2,600 trucks going into the DRC have passed and 1,900 trucks have come into Zambia. So, indeed, it is a busy border and since I am told he has just come into the House, even our President spoke to his counterpart. So, I think we are on course. I also thank him for the congratulatory message.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr A. Banda (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the ministerial statement. However, I am worried because I have been working in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) for a long time and still operate from there. Entrusting the lives of our drivers with the security personnel in the DRC so that they take care of them is a farfetched dream.

Madam Speaker, I think that maybe, the hon. Minister should have taken care of our drivers by way of assigning Zambian security forces in the DRC.

Madam Speaker, the DRC is dangerous.

Interjections

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, whether the President says anything, it will never work.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, are you debating or it is point of clarification?

Mr A. Banda: Madam Speaker, does he intend to assign any Zambian security forces in the DRC?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the issues that have been raised now are bordering on sovereignty. The DRC is a sovereign State and we have no jurisdiction to deploy. We do not see any reason to deploy our men and women in uniform there.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Second Deputy Speaker: Allow me to call upon the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa, since the slot was not taken by the hon. Member for Mbabala.

Mr Mwambazi (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing me to ask a question. I thank the hon. Minister for his answers.

Madam Speaker, for some of us who are from the Copperbelt, this is a perpetual problem. For a number of years, this thing of drivers being attacked has been happening. I can assure the hon. Minister that some of those drivers who were attacked are from my constituency. They have been sending me videos and all sorts of information. So, I want to find out what robust mechanism the Government is putting in place to ensure that as our brothers go to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), they are safe because we cannot entrust them in the hands of the people of the DRC.

Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, for clarity, in responding to my hon. Colleague, I will just quickly run through the immediate measures that have been put in place. Of course, I agree with him that this challenge has been with us for a long time. It is true. The lives of our Zambian drivers are not always safe. Therefore, the following are the measures that will be taken:

1. the DRC Government has agreed to provide vehicles to conduct patrols on a twenty-four hour basis through Kasumbalesa, Lubumbashi, Likishi and the Kolwezi Corridor to ensure the safety of transiting drivers;
2. our counterparts have also assured us that they will create an SOS green line that will be used by truck drivers to communicate and raise security alerts with the DRC authorities when problems arise;
3. we have also agreed with the Congolese authorities to jointly monitor the security situation and to ensure that there is regular communication between our security wings; and
4. in responding to one of the complaints that we got from the drivers, the radioactive scanners that are at entry points between the borders will be switched off to ensure the safety of our drivers. They will be able to disembark before radioactive actions are taken to scan their trucks.

Madam Speaker, these are the immediate measures that have been agreed upon, to just assure my hon. Colleague. Suffice it for me to mention that we are open to continuous dialogue amongst ourselves as leaders here. For those who have ideas that they would want to see the Government implement, we are happy to listen, look at them and see if they are feasible and implementable.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MATERNAL DEATHS IN LUWINGU DISTRICT

61. Mr Mukosa (Chinsali) (on behalf of Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi)) asked the Minister of Health:

1. whether the Government is aware that in the last one month, four pregnant women have died after being referred to Luwingu District Hospital from the following clinics in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency, due to the lack of transport to ferry them to the hospital:

1. Shimumbi;
2. Luena;
3. Chifwile; and
4. Tungati; and
5. b) if so, what urgent measures are being taken to ensure that Luwingu District Hospital is provided with an ambulance to attend to emergencies and avert further loss of life, especially during child birth.

The Minister of Health (Mrs Masebo): Madam Speaker, the Government is not aware that four pregnant women have died after being referred to Luwingu District Hospital from Shimumbi, Luena, Chifwile, and Tungati clinics in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency, due to the lack of transport to ferry them to the hospital.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that in Zambia, maternal mortality is a notifiable event and, as such, all maternity deaths that occur in the country are required to be reported through the structures that the Government, through the Ministry of Health, has put in place.

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to note that at the community level, we have what we call community volunteers, the Safe Motherhood Action Groups (SMAGs) who are members of Neighbourhood Health Committees (NHCs). These report to the in-charge of either a health post or a health centre which transmits information to the District Health Office (DHO). The DHO, in turn, reports to the Provincial Health Office (PHO). The provinces report to the national level. The reports should normally reach the national level within twenty-four hours.

Madam Speaker, I wish to report to the House that the Government, therefore, does not have a report of the four pregnant women who died after being referred to Luwingu District Hospital. The district last recorded a mortality on 12^th September, 2022, and this mortality was referred from Chikoyi Clinic coming from Coop Compound as a septic (infected) unsafe abortion with septic shock.

Madam Speaker, as stated above, these particular maternal deaths were neither reported nor recorded at Luwingu District Hospital. However, the House may wish to note that on the issue of transport, Luwingu District Hospital was recently provided with a vehicle by our PHO for referrals to Kasama General Hospital to reduce on the turnaround time. This was done to add to the DHO fleet that picks up patients from health facilities.

Madam Speaker, currently, the district has three functional landcruisers, one which is specifically an ambualance and the other two which are utility vehicles that are normally used to pick patients in cases of emergency. The other extra ambulance was involved in an accident two months ago and has not yet been taken for repairs.

Madam Speaker, the district has eleven motorbike ambulances which are also used to pick patients from the community to the nearby health facilities and are managed by the community.

Madam Speaker, the House may further wish to note that the Government has already put in place measures to procure ambulances and this is being implemented in a phased approach. The tender process for the procurement of the first 100 ambulances has since closed. The evaluation and selection of the responsive bidders will be done within the months of October and November. The Government will allocate ambulances to districts with high need.

Madam Speaker, you will note from the 2023 Budget Address that the issue of ambulances has, again, been articulated just like in 2022 because the Government realises the need for these ambulances.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Madam Speaker, I want to acknowledge the answer from the hon. Minister, which I believe concentrated on ambulances as modes of transport. Having been to the Northern Province, especially to the provincial office in Kasama, there are a lot of tricycles that were procured, but are not yet in use. You will find them when you go behind this office. When you look at our people currently in the affected areas such as Tungati, Chifwile and many others which were tabulated in the question, they are surviving on bicycles to reduce maternal morbidity as well as mortality rates. When is the ministry considering distributing those tricycles that are just marooned at the provincial office?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the question. I am not aware that there are some tricycles that are marooned somewhere. I am only aware that there were tricycles that were initially procured by the previous administration, and they had issues.

When we took office, it was found that the Ministry of Justice had advised that the procurement of those tricycles was not done officially and, therefore, that contract was cancelled. However, I am aware that there were less than, I think, twenty tricycles, I cannot remember the exact number, which we were told were, apparently, a gift that was given to the Patriotic Front (PF) Government then. A gift was given of some tricycles before the actual deal of purchase and supply of hundreds of others. So, I am not sure whether these are the ones being referred to. I am not sure how those less than twenty tricycles that were donated as gifts by the same supplier were distributed. However, if the hon. Member is very interested in the matter, he can come and we will give the answer to him.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Lubansenshi.

Mr Chewe was inaudible

Mr Chewe: Hello, am I loudable?

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are loud and clear, continue with your question.

Mr Chewe (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response. I would like to inform the hon. Minister that I am on the ground here in Lubansenshi Constituency. I am appreciating the challenges that our people are facing. Remember that Luwingu has in excess of seven health posts and these are far from Luwingu District Hospital. Apart from that, Luwingu District Hospital is the only hospital that we have for the entire district and there are many referral cases that come from other districts such as Kawambwa, Lupososhi and Lunte. It is important, first of all, to tell the hon. Minister the truth about what is obtaining on the ground because, if we –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, we do not have that much time. Can you, please, go straight into your question?

Mr Chewe: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that it caters for all the health posts that surround Luwingu in order to beat time when it comes to emergencies, in addition to what the hon. Minister indicated, which was that it is about to procure more ambulances?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament. Mr Chewe is in his constituency. When he asked his question, I was able to get in touch with provincial and district officials. They have informed me that, in fact, they have four utility vehicles of which three are functional.

Madam Speaker, I suggest that he sits down with his district management team and works out a schedule that is going to help them to be able to reach far flung areas. There is a follow-up question here that said there are some seven or eleven tricycles that are not being utilised. I advise that he can, again, talk to the Director of Health and see how they can distribute those tricycles if, indeed, they are there.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Speaker –

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am rising pursuant to Standing Order 221, which is Part Seven, on General Provisions and states:

“221. Language of proceedings and debate

The proceedings and debates of the Assembly shall be in English language.”

Madam Speaker, whenever a non English word is used in this House, the user is compelled to interpret it. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi in order not to interpret the word “loudable” to this House so that we can be abreast with what he is talking about?

I seek your ruling, Madam Speaker.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you, hon. Minister. The hon. Member for Lubansenshi, I am sure, meant to say ‘audible’.

Hon. UPND Members: Oho!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, for using that word he was out of order at that time.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Chitambo may continue with his question.

Mr Mutale: Madam Speaker, the problem at hand has been brought to this House on several occasions. I know that the hon. Minister is trying hard to procure those ambulances, which will go a long way. However, I think the problem is not about the procurement of the ambulances, but the distances to the rural health centres. You would discover that even when they have an ambulance and they have an emergency; an ambulance will go a distance of about 100 km. So, when an issue of a pregnancy arises, you discover that there is no vehicle to pick up that mother and at the end of the day, she dies.

My question to the hon. Minister is: Is she considering procuring lighter vehicles or tricycles, specifically meant for pregnant women so that we are, at least, assured that women are catered for in terms of transport at each and every health post?

Mrs Masebo: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his very important follow-up question. I must admit that the point that he has brought about is correct, when he says that a number of our health posts are, obviously, far from district hospitals.

Madam Speaker, when there are emergencies, with the few ambulances that are available, sometimes, it is too late for ambulances to move from a district hospital to a particular facility. This is why, as the Government, one of our priorities is to improve the fleet of ambulances, generally, in all districts. That is why, if you noted, from the first year, we budgeted for a 100 ambulances. For next year, I am sure the hon. Member has already seen from the presentation by His Excellency and also the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the priority has continued or will continue in the years 2023 and 2024 and, hopefully, until we get to a point when we are somehow comfortable.

Again, if you look at the question, Madam Speaker, it did not come out with an actual issue to help the ministry to be able to answer in that regard. I think the focus was on the number of pregnant women who had died and, which number, according to our records, is not there. It could even be true that someone died, but that information was not transmitted. However, as I indicated, in communities, we have people whose mandate is to help us, and everybody knows them. That is how we get our figures. I dare say that our figures are next to perfect when it comes to the numbers of deaths that we receive.

Madam Speaker, it is also possible that we can miss information on a death. However, it is not something that we, as a Government, think is that easy, especially not for four cases.

Madam Speaker, let me say, however, that use of various types of ambulances is something that we are looking at. In some cases, we have already given the instruction, for example, to have bought an ambulance, or is it a bus ambulance, with all these kinds of specifications. These are things that are welcome, except that I ask of hon. Members of Parliament, within their means in their Constituency Development Fund (CDF), to well also include purchase of a tricycle as an ambulance for a health post or, indeed, these modern ambulances which people are constructing, apart from the motorised ones. I think they are free to do that and it will be a welcome move.

I thank you, Madam.

REHABILITATION OF ROADS IN MBALA DISTRICT

62. Mr Simutowe (Mbala) asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural Development:

1. whether the Government has any plans to rehabilitate township roads in Mbala District;
2. if so, when the plans will be implemented;
3. what the estimated cost of the project is; and
4. what the estimated timeframe for the completion of the project is.

The Minister of Local Government and Rural Development (Mr Nkombo): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to rehabilitate township roads in Mbala District. It is formulating a Ten-Year Road Rehabilitation and Maintenance Plan in conjunction with road sector agencies, and township roads in Mbala will be a part of that plan once it has been concluded and approved. The implementation of the plan shall be dependent on the availability of funds.

Madam Speaker, the estimated cost for Mbala roads will only be determined and realised once the plans are fully developed and concluded.

Madam Speaker, the time frame for the completion of the project will only be known once the plans have been concluded.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala is not the first one to ask such an important question about township roads. I am on record asking the hon. Minister for Local Government and Rural Development on township roads in Kamfinsa. I am sure there are many other hon. Members of Parliament that will ask a similar question and the answer will remain that there is a Ten-Year Sector Plan that is being developed.

Madam Speaker, are there any estimates as to when this master plan, this very useful document, will be developed and, if it is possible, the hon. Minister will come and issue a ministerial statement around it? It would really guide all of us on when we should expect township roads to be done in our respective constituencies.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, it is, indeed, true that many hon. Colleagues, both on the right and the left, have been very desirous to know when township roads and, indeed, rural connectivity roads will be rehabilitated and constructed in their various constituencies. It is also true that this hon. Minister here speaking has referred to the Ten-Year Road Sector Rehabilitation and Maintenance Plan which the ministry has been working on with other road sector agencies. So, the hon. Member is asking me when this actual plan is going to be pronounced by way of a ministerial statement.

Madam Speaker, it will be done as soon as possible. This means in the nearest possible time of conclusion. Just a little bit of supplementation of the response to his question, Madam Speaker; it is I, who has, at several occasions, requested hon. Members of Parliament to make sure that the submissions that come from their local jurisdictions are made known to them so that we can reduce such types of questions as much as possible and look at things that we have not dealt with.

Madam Speaker, to me, now, this question has come like a revision lesson because the answer is in my heard. Even if you asked me when I was fast asleep, I could tell you that we are working on a Ten-Year Road Sector Development Plan, our plan, our blue print as the United Party for National Development (UPND). Suffice it for me to say that the UPND is not the first Government in this republic.

Madam Speaker, I also stated that the other Governments that were there had their own plans, which I leave up to hon. Members to say whether or not they succeeded considering the fact that some of us know, in no uncertain terms, that nearly three quarters of the country was left hanging when the previous Government indicated that all projects that were below 80 per cent had to be abandoned. So, we are starting from our own slate and will definitely share this information as we roll-out this programme.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mbala, do you have a supplementary question?

Mr Simutowe: No, Madam Speaker. I just wanted to know the position of the Government on township roads in Mbala.

Mr Shakafuswa (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing the people of Mandevu to ask a follow-up question to the hon. Minister.

Madam Speaker, township roads in Mbala, Kamfinsa and Mandevu need to be worked on. In planning, you do not just plan for ten years or for the long term, but you start with the short term. The mandate given to the New Dawn Government by the people of Zambia is five years, but the hon. Minister keeps on referring to a ten year plan. What will the Government do in the five years that the people have given it, as regards township roads?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Members behind me to calm down and allow me to answer this question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu who, as a matter of fact, is my own son.

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu. Yes, indeed, the people of this country have been gracious enough to give us a five-year term because that is what the Constitution provides. I would like him to be reminded that we did not inherit Government in a vacuum. We found it in a state which I have described as ‘malaise.’ It was in a state of malaise. This is related to the debt mountain that his party left us with, and so, as a responsible Government, emulating them in that party, who were responsible enough to curtail all those contracts that they had signed up and left as long as they were below 80 per cent completion upon their own realisation that they had embarked on a trajectory that was too difficult to accomplish on account of the non-availability of money, we have decided to be realistic. We urge our Zambian people to also be as realistic as we are so that we do not over commit them.

Hon. Members should not forget that each time their party went to borrow money for the uncompleted projects; the debt burden was sitting on top of every Zambian citizen, even those who were not part and parcel of governance. They need to understand that. So, if we do a simple computation, the debt burden that they left us with of over K20 billion, spread around all the people of Zambia, including small children who have not even started going to school.

Madam Speaker, what we are trying to do now is to normalise that situation.

Mr Kasandwe: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

There is an indication for a point of Order. What is your point of order hon. Member for Bangweulu?

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kasandwe: Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.

Madam Speaker, this is pursuant to content of speech and relevance. The question the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu asked –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Standing Orders?

Mr Kasandwe: Standing Order 65 on Content of Speech states that a Member debating shall confine his or her debate to the subject under discussion.

Madam Speaker, the question is simple and straightforward: What are you going to do in the next five years vis-à-vis township roads? Is the hon. Minister in order to continue referring to what has not been asked? He is fishing in Lake Bangweulu. Is he in order to just go round fishing? I seek your serious ruling.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

What I know is that the hon. Minister can come to this House with all the information that he/she thinks is relevant to the issue that is being debated on the Floor.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, the hon. Minister is free to bring any information so long as it is tied to the issue that is being discussed on the Floor of the House. So, the Hon. Minister can continue.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am trying to be as relevant and simple as possible so that we have a fair understanding of the situation at hand.

The question, indeed, is: What shall we do in the next five years? I am trying to explain to my son, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mandevu, that this five-year plan that they are giving us is starting from a negative, where they left us. If they left us at zero, we would actually say that since we do not owe, we are going to start building bituminous standard roads in all towns tomorrow.

Madam Speaker, it will be irresponsible to go and borrow money on top of the debt that they left us, the very reason they stopped those projects that were below 80 per cent. Please, gather the nexus or connection, hon. Brother and friend from Bangweulu. This is where I am coming from. We …

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, resume your seat for just a minute.

Hon. Members, I just want to remind you that this is a Budget Meeting. We have a lot of work ahead of us and need to finalise even the debate on the Budget Speech that was what made. We are, then, supposed to move forward. This is why we have even reduced on the number of questions that you are seeing on the Order Paper. So, if we try to misuse the time, we will not go far with the Budget. We have a lot of work to finish. So, with that guide, please, let us be mindful of the way we are using the time that we have. We have to catch up.

I will allow the hon. Minister to wind up his answer so that we move forward.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am very grateful. Maybe, to just be a bit blunt, we will commence the Road Sector Development Plan once we clean up the mess that the Patriotic Front (PF) left.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us move forward. Since the hon. Member for Mbala has no supplementary questions, we are going to move on. The hon. Minister of Local and Rural Development will remove the word ‘mess’ and replace it with another word.

Mr Nkombo: With pleasure, and I apologise, Madam Speaker.

We will work on the roads as soon as we clean up the malaise that the PF left us in.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kafwaya: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise this point of order.

Madam Speaker, you just ruled, when my hon. Colleague rose on a point of order –

Hon. Government Members: What is the Standing Order?

Mr Kafwaya: Of course, Standing Order 65.

Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister continued purely because you protected him.

Madam Speaker, on today’s Order Paper, there is a Motion where we are approving borrowing by the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government.

Hon. PF Members: Correct!

Mr Kafwaya: Is the hon. Minister in order to refer to debt as irresponsible when his Government has brought this borrowing document to your House for approval?

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Lunte, I do not think I was protecting the hon. Minister. I was just doing my work the way I saw it. So, the words, ‘you protected the hon. Minister’ are not fair on my part as the presiding officer.

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, I apologise.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Thank you. Now, I do not even know whether the ruling is relevant because the hon. Minister has finished and we are almost moving on to the next item on the agenda. However, like I guided, let us try to be relevant and focused on the issue that is being discussed on the Floor so that we move forward. This is a very important meeting that we are in. Already, we even mentioned the Motion that is coming forth. So, let us not waste time. Let us move because people out there are also listening. They want to hear what is coming next. So, can we, please, move?

_______

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE NATIONAL PENSION SCHEME (Amendment) BILL, 2022

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Ms Tambatamba): Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the National Pension Scheme (Amendment) Bill, 2022. The objects of the Bill are as follows:

1. revise the penalty rate for delayed payment of contributions;

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my left!

Can we, please, give a chance to the hon. Minister to read what she has for the House? The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security may continue.

Ms Tambatamba: Madam Speaker, I thank you. I will start from the beginning.

Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the National Pension Scheme (Amendment) Bill, 2022. The objects of the Bill are as follows:

1. revise the penalty rate for delayed payment of contributions;
2. provide for waiver of penalties arising from delayed payment of contribution;
3. provide for an option to claim for age benefits by a member under the pensionable age under the existing fund; and
4. provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to your Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. Your Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Thursday, 17^th November, 2022. Hon Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of your Committee.

I thank you.

_______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE PLANNING AND BUDGETING COMMITTEE

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Planning and Budgeting Committee on the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP) for the Financial Year 2023, laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 7^th October, 2022 for the Second Session of the Thirteenth National Assembly.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Chonde (Milenge): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mung’andu rose to walk out of the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Government Members: Order, order!

Mr Chaatila: Madam Speaker, the Planning and Budgeting Committee was tasked to scrutinise the ABP for the Financial Year 1^st January to 31^st December, 2023, in accordance with its terms of reference as set out in Standing Order 195(7) of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2021.

From the outset, Madam Speaker, I want to commend the Government for adhering to the provisions of Section 8(4) of the Public Debt Management Act No.15 of 2022, which requires the hon. Minister responsible for finance to lay before the National Assembly the ABP not later than ninety days before the commencement of the next financial year.

Madam Speaker, the submission of the ABP is, furthermore, consistent with the commitments the Government made under the Extended Credit Facility (ECF) and is in line with the Debt Sustainability Analysis (DSA) and the objectives of the Eighth National Development Plan (8NDP). Therefore, I, wish to urge the House to adopt the Report of Your Committee on the ABP.

Madam Speaker, it is a well-known fact that most resources required for public spending are raised each year through taxation. However, it is rare for any National Budget, world over, to balance in any one year. Most countries, and not Zambia alone, run annual budget deficits and these budgets are often financed through borrowing. In order to accelerate capital spending and achieve economic stabilisation, many Governments opt to raise some of their resources through borrowing rather than taxation.

Madam Speaker, in light of the above, borrowing to finance a Budget deficit is not unique to Zambia. However, in order to achieve financial sustainability, it is of utmost importance that the Government exercises responsible borrowing, which can only be achieved through fiscal, discipline and prudent use of borrowed funds.

Madam, it is against this background that your Committee is gratified by the Government’s resolution to borrow only to sustainable levels. The requirement of the National Assembly's approval of the ABP is important in ensuring that borrowing is within acceptable levels and acts as a check to avoid the country going back to a debt crisis.

Madam Speaker, in scrutinising the ABP, your Committee interacted with witnesses from the private sector and public institutions. I want to place on record that all the stakeholders that appeared before your Committee welcomed and supported the ABP, and submitted that it would guide the Government's borrowing from both domestic and external sources.

Madam Speaker, I am confident that hon. Members have had occasion to peruse the report of your Committee. I will, therefore, only highlight very few salient issues.

Non- preparation of the Medium-Term Debt Strategy (MTDS)

Your Committee observes that in accordance with Section 4(1) of the Public Debt Management Act, the Minister responsible for finance should cause the preparation of the MTDS for the management of Government debt.

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes that the ABP is consistent with the macroeconomic framework that was used to conduct the DSA, which assumed that the Government would, between 2022 and 2025, only borrow on concessional terms for all external loans. Your Committee, therefore, finds it unfortunate that the Government was unable to submit the MTDS due to brevity of time.

Arising out of this, your Committee recommends that the Public Debt Management Act should be reviewed to provide a transitional period within which the Government can publish the strategy, taking into account other permutations that may prevail, before presenting the ABP to Parliament.

State Owned Enterprises' Borrowing Not Included in the ABP

Madam, your Committee observes with concern that State-Owned Enterprises (SOE) account for guaranteed and non-guaranteed external debt amounting to US$15 billion and US$113.69 million, respectively, as part of Zambia’s total current debt stock, which stands at US$25.2 billion. Your Committee observes with concern that the borrowing requirements for public bodies were not submitted together with the ABP in line with the provisions of the Public Debt Management Act No.15 of 2022.

Your Committee recommends that to increase the oversight capability of the National Assembly of the ABP and public debt, the Government should strictly adhere to Section 23 of the Public Debt Management Act. Your Committee is of the view that there could be additional costs and expenses such as tax-gross-up, waivers and other indemnities in individual agreements that the House may have to approve because they are expected to be a charge on the consolidated fund, in accordance with Section 27 of the Public Financial Management Act No. 1 of 2018.

Madam, in this case, there is a need to reconcile Section 27 of the Public Financial Management Act No. 1 of 2018 with Section 8(7) of the Public Debt Management Act.

Madam Speaker, to ensure the effective implementation of the plan, your Committee further recommends enhanced collaboration between the Treasury, represented by the Debt Management Office and the Central Bank for effective cash management through the Treasury Single Account (TSA) to prevent refinancing risk.

Need to Prioritise Economic and Productive Sectors of the Economy

Madam Speaker, your Committee is aware, that social sectors are an important facet of the economy. It is a well-accepted fact that for an economy to thrive, people must be healthy, educated and have access to social amenities. However, your Committee observes with concern considering that the Government has a huge debt stock which has taken the country into financial distress, that there is an urgent need to revamp the economy by investing in viable and productive sectors of the economy, which will, in turn, generate income in the short to medium term and be able to finance social sectors.

Madam Speaker, in light of the above, your Committee recommends that the Government should consider reducing borrowing for funding social sectors in the ABP and focus more on the economic and productive sectors.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I reiterate my plea for the House to adopt the Report of your Committee. I, further, wish, on behalf of your Committee, to thank you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for your guidance and support throughout your Committee’s deliberations. I also pay tribute to all the stakeholders who made both oral and written submissions at short notice to your Committee.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Chonde (Milenge): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam, thank you for giving the people of Milenge a chance to second the Motion that was ably moved by the Chairperson urging the House to adopt your Committee’s report on the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP).

Madam Speaker, the House may wish to know that this is the first time the ABP is being presented before the National Assembly of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Chonde: Allow me to continue to comment on a few items that were raised during our interaction with stakeholders which the Chairperson did not comment on. I will restrict myself to a few of them and then name them. These are: Compliance with fiscal rules and debt sustainability and the crowding out of the private sector from the financial market. I am also going to talk about something which I hope everybody will be able to absorb; the concessions in the mining sector, without considering increased revenue and output in terms of productivity.

Madam Speaker, may I restrict myself to the first consideration which is compliance with fiscal rules and debt sustainability. The borrowing requirement for the 2023 Budget is at K54 billion with the relevant fiscal specification in Section 11 of the Public Debt Management Bill No. 15 of 2022 and the provisions of Section 11(2)(a) which cap the debt stock for any fiscal year at 65 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Going ahead, Section 11(2)(b) limits the redemption for any financial year at 20 per cent of the average annual recurrent revenue computed on the basis of the three preceding financial years.

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes the concerns that the debt to GDP ratio exceeds the required threshold and debt redemption of 2023 amounting to K25 billion or thereabout, as external debt. As indicated in the Budget, this is approximately 31 per cent of the three-year recurrent revenue of 2021 or 2022. While noting the plan is supported by debt sustainability analysis conducted in May 2022 to arrive at the figures, your Committee urges the Government to ensure that in implementing the ABP, the provisions of the Public Debt Management Act are strictly adhered to.

Madam Speaker, let me comment on the crowding out of the private sector. Your Committee observes that there is a possibility that Government domestic borrowing may crowd out credit to the private sector which may negatively impact economic growth. Your Committee is cognisant of the fact that Government borrowing can affect private investment crowding out private sector credit directly or indirectly through rising interest rates.

Madam, while noting that the Government has taken measures to reduce the crowding out of the private sector, this is still a visible risk due to the limited pool of funds in the financial markets and the capacity of the market to absorb this level of borrowing. Your Committee observes the concern that lending to the private sector as a percentage of the GDP fell from 12.5 per cent in 2019 to 9.2 per cent in 2022, corresponding to the period of the Government’s increased domestic borrowing.

Madam Speaker, in light of this, your Committee recommends that the Government scales down on domestic contraction as this will, in turn, allow for more money for private sector investment and also push down lending rates.

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by making my last point on concessions in the mining sector without corresponding increase in revenue and improved productivity. Your Committee observes with concern that while the Government is seeking to finance the Budget deficit, it has proposed a number of concessions in the mining sector without corresponding benefits which will accrue to the country in the short term so as to avert borrowing to finance the Budget deficit.

Madam Speaker, your Committee recommends that as opposed to focusing more on expenditure, the Government should ramp up activities aimed at growing the domestic revenue base. This should include stringent measures like reducing financial illicit flows and enforcing strategies of collecting taxes from the informal sector by improving compliance which, in turn, will reduce the acquisition of debt.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to join the mover of the Motion in urging this House to adopt the report of the Committee. I thank you for giving the people of Milenge a voice to second the Motion.

I beg to second, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. You cannot be urged by two hon. Colleagues and say otherwise. I wish to support the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: In doing so, I wish to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for two things. Firstly, for creating this document, the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP) for 2023 and, secondly, bringing it to this House for its scrutiny. This must be commended.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, this annual plan is clear in so many ways. Firstly, it is clear that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government will borrow. In commenting on it, I would like to go backwards and then reflect on where we are and where we are going.

Madam Speaker, going backwards just a bit, two years back, President Hakainde Hichilema, before he became President, was clear about national debt. He said there would be a moratorium on debt, which means no room for debt or national borrowing. It was not only President Hakainde Hichilema, who said this, but also his current hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the one who has brought this proposal for borrowing in 2023. He said there would be a moratorium on debt. The two were preaching a moratorium on debt. The current President and the current hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning are contradicting their own conscience by bringing this plan.

Madam Speaker, I want to make specific reference to this particular book so that I am not also contradictory. In this book, on page 10, the hon. Minister documents that the total maturities on domestic debt in 2023 are projected at K63.26 billion while total issuances are projected at K78.83 billion resulting in net domestic borrowing of K15.6 billion.

Madam Speaker, this K15.6 billion is what we have seen in the hon. Minister’s address as his domestic financing. He used the word financing, not borrowing, as if it were to mask the fact that borrowing is going to occur.

Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister is: What financial or accounting standard did he use to marry two numbers, one which is already sitting on his books and the other which he projects to sit on his books at the end of 2023?

Madam Speaker, I reviewed International Accounting Standard (IAS) No. 39. I also reviewed International Financial Reporting Standard (IFRS) No. 9. Recognition of a financial asset or liability is done when one appends a signature to the provision of borrowing. How does one net off an existing obligation with a future obligation and then come to the House with a net figure and say, this is what I am going to borrow.

Madam Speaker, this is misleading and bad for the country. The hon. Minister must state whether he is planning borrow K78.3 billion, and not K15 billion. This is what I referred to when I said that this Budget will be financed at 55.5 per cent on borrowing.

Madam Speaker, our country is now going to finish, in as far as financing is concerned.

Interruptions

Mr Kafwaya: Madam Speaker, this is happening at a time when mining corporations are awarded unlimited concessions.

Madam Speaker, finally, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to link this borrowing to unemployment. How many jobs are going to be created as a result of the application of this debt which is seating at 55.5 per cent of the Budget? How many people will be taken out of poverty? How many? How many of our people will come out of this problem of hunger? How is the cost of living going to be impacted by the application of this debt? The hon. Minister has listed where this money is going, as I can see. There is nothing suggesting that this money will stimulate the economy so that it can produce good employment for our people. Nothing is demonstrating that this money will actually be directed towards ensuring that our people are out of poverty.

Madam Speaker, my advice, again, is that the hon. Minister should inform His Excellency the President to ensure that when you borrow more than half of your Budget, you are placing a huge burden on the Zambian people and it can only do better to go back to the people. Going back to the people, at this moment in time, is provision of employment, like what the Patriotic Front (PF) did. Money went to the airports. Those airports have employed people. Money went to telecommunication towers. Those towers have stimulated this economy. Money went to hospitals. Those hospitals are serving people even though, now, there is no medicine.

Madam Speaker, it is very important to ensure our people begin to benefit from this Government’s interaction with the resources of the Zambian people. Let me end by saying borrowing is good. This is why the United Party for National Development (UPND) has brought a borrowing plan to this House. However, borrowing for consumption is terrible.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, you wanted to rise on a point of order?

Mr Mwiimbu: No, Madam Speaker. I was indicating to debate.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, before hon. Ministers come in to contribute to the debate, we will have backbenchers. However, please, allow me to be alternating so that we hear a voice from the Patriotic Front (PF), the United Party for National Development (UPND) and the Independents.

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Madam Speaker, from the outset, I would like to say that I support this borrowing plan. I, therefore, support the Motion moved by Hon. Chaatila and seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Milenge.

Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for being transparent. I think the issue of debt in this country has been a topical issue, and I would like to put it on record that, given our debt position, as a country, we have no choice but to continue borrowing. I would like to commend him on the fact that the debt that I see in this plan is concessional debt. It is not from capital markets. It is cheap debt.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wamunyima: It is necessary that we acknowledge this.

Madam Speaker, your Committee has noted, on page 6, a number of concerns vis-à-vis the concessions to the mining industry without a corresponding revenue base. We have a situation where we might actually borrow more than we are projecting, in case the Government does not meet its revenue target. That risk is a factor we must take into consideration.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the report of your Committee, I take note that the Government has given concessions to the mines to encourage additional investment; it is welcome. However, my concern with the mining sector is that these concessions come with no reasonable statutory amendments to the Mines and Minerals Act. For example, we talk about the K1.3 billion Nickel Mine. This mine will only employ 700 people, but currently, we have over 400 people unemployed by Lubambe Copper Mine. We have other people who have been laid off from work by the Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM). Therefore, these concessions mean nothing if we continue not to demand for ownership stake in the mines, at least, 50 per cent, like it is in Namibia and Botswana.

Madam Speaker, we took 100 years to mine copper because we did not have this highly mechanised mining. However, now we have machinery which can even mine 250,000 metric tonnes in a day. How do we expect that these minerals will always be there? They will not always be there. So, we need to have an honest conversation on what benefit we are having in the mines. We have provided concessions. It is good that we are encouraging investment. However, if the ownership structure is not discussed and codified by law, we should not discuss because this investment we are talking about in the mines is not our investment. It is a foreign investment. The foreigners mine and leave.

Madam Speaker, in supporting this borrowing plan, therefore, I agree with your Committee that there is a lot of social sector spending that is being channelled from these borrowed resources. What activities are bringing back revenue so that we can service our debt? In the Budget, we have the progression of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) to the Comprehensive Support Programme (CSP), which is good. Now, part of these borrowed funds is going to upgrading the FISP. Even when we are seated here today, there is no technocrat who can answer how we can measure the benefits of the FISP, not even the hon. Minister himself. We are still producing the same amount of maize before and after we had the FISP. So, we also need to have an honest conversation on what benefit it is to improve a programme whose results we cannot measure. If you cannot measure it, you cannot manage it.

Madam Speaker, part of this borrowing will also go into other areas which include employing people in the Civil Service. I have said it here and will put it on record again; we keep bloating the Civil Service. It is necessary that we have sufficient human resource, but when you look at our parastatal companies, your Committee on Parastatal Bodies said that 80 per cent of them in this country are making loses. So, why should these parastatals remain functional? We get more money from tax revenue to pay people in these parastatals.

Madam Speaker, in supporting the hon. Ministers plan, therefore, there must be an honest conversation that he must look at the relevance of these parastatals. By the way, the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) Act still places the Republican President as the Chairperson of the IDC. So, this also needs to be looked at so that we know who we hold accountable if 80 per cent of Parastatals are not making money.

Madam Speaker, in supporting your Committees report –

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours 

_______

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Wamunyima (Nalolo): Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about windup my debate.

Mr Speaker, as the annual borrowing plan seeks to fund a K54 billion Budget deficit, it is very important that we agree, here in this House, that the spending and borrowing is necessary. However, we must take into account that with increased borrowing, we cannot have parastatals that fail to give audited reports. So, we need to have a situation in which we address this so that even for programmes like the FISP, that have been improved, we should be able to say that out of 100 farmers, fifty have graduated from Grade 1 farmer to B.

Mr Speaker, I support this borrowing plan, and urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, as proposed by your Committee, to spend more on revenue based activities and cut down on social sector spending so that we can be in a position to say that we are honestly servicing our debt without being seen to be driving more populist than actual functionaries, that is, money coming through activities.

Mr Speaker, I submit.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, just as the First Deputy Speaker indicated, we will be alternating. So, I call upon the hon. Member for Zambezi East.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate the Motion that was ably moved by the Chairperson of the Committee on Planning and Budgeting, Hon. Chaatila.

Mr Speaker, I would like to declare interest before I proceed in my discourse that I am a member of the Committee on Planning and Budgeting. Our rules entitle me to debate, but only to support my own report. The whole idea is to explain what is contained in the report. What is prohibited of me is to stand here and debate against my own report.

Mr Speaker, I will just cite a few things in support of the Motion that is on the Floor of the House. I never actually intended to debate, but I am compelled to do so because I heard some debaters, after giving credit to such good work that went into the production of this report at such a short time, and for the first time in the life of this Parliament, went ahead to ridicule the contents of the report.

Mr Speaker, the very fact that this document was produced at such a short notice, first of all, putting in place the rightful laws required, which our colleagues failed to put in place for the whole of the ten years that they were in power –

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, you should debate as a Committee member.

Mr Kambita: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for your guidance. The Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP) is required by law. It is required to come with the Budget. The purpose of this plan is to give the public an idea of what the Government intends to use to finance an annual Budget from resources outside of the revenue collected. This is exactly what we are doing. It is to create transparency. If you are looking for a yard stick of transparency, here it is. It clearly shows how much is going to be raised domestically, from this economy and how much is going to be raised from international financiers.

Mr Speaker, true to our policy direction, the hon. Minister stated here that we will never go to borrow from those who lend commercially, but will rely on concessional borrowing. I heard one debater trying to play semantics of sentences between borrowing and financing. It is one and the same thing. It depends on the angle at which you are looking.

Mr Speaker, every Government in this world finances its budget through these major things: revenue collected in-country; grants that are given; and borrowing. This borrowing can either be external or domestic. This is how a budget is financed world over, even developed countries utilise that means. So, it is not a question of the use of the word borrowing or financing, it is about how you are getting those resources and what you will use them for.

 

Mr Speaker, when you look at this document, on page 5, it clearly shows, in compliance with the law, what is going to be borrowed and the purpose for that borrowing. It is clearly indicated to everyone here. I have not heard anyone clearly come up with opposing views of what this money is intended to be used on.

Mr Speaker, we were here celebrating about the farming blocks that are going to be introduced. That is where the money will go. Item by item has been included. When you look at the general budget support, it is just a minimum figure here.

Mr Speaker, the major items to be financed are clearly stated in this document. Therefore, I disagree with the argument of the hon. Member for Lunte in which he ended up going into accounting standards as if we are looking at financial reports here. These are not historical records. This is a plan for the future, which plan can even change. We have a window in-between to actually alter it. The law provides for that. So, you cannot bring in international financial reporting standards.

Mr Speaker, by the way, there are reporting standards, are there not? If you are reporting, you are reporting about something that is historical. However, we are not talking of figures that happened in the yester year. We are talking of figures of what will happen next year. How do international financial reporting standards come in when analysing this Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP)?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambita: So, that is misplaced debate trying to hoodwink people who do not know what is going on. The hon. Member was trying to make us think that we are doing a wrong thing. International Financial Reporting Standards cannot come in on an ABP. They are just not applicable here. They are applicable to financial reports, which report about historical things. Is there anything historical about this borrowing plan? Can the hon. Member tell me if there is?

Sir, how then does somebody gather the courage to come here and mislead the whole House and the general public about the very refined work that has gone into this document, which has been timely done?

Mr Speaker, in the discourse of the hon. Member for Lunte, he mentioned that this is the first time this is being done. He actually commended the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for having produced such a beautiful document, for the first time, which clearly shows what we are going to do next year in terms of monies that are going to be sourced from outside of the domestic revenue and what they are going to be used for.

 

Therefore, ladies and gentlemen, hon. Members, who are we then not to support such a beautiful document ...

Hon. PF Member: To you!

Mr Kambita: ... which will help us implement the Budget, which we are still considering? I think the details are in the Yellow Book. If there is anything you have to argue about, it is about the Yellow Book on the expenditure side, but the annual borrowing plan will actually support our revenue envelope.

Mr Speaker, I thought of clarifying some of those issues, so that the public knows where we stand and understand that this document is going to help and support us in our work.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo (Shiwang’andu): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me to make a few comments on the Motion moved by our Chairperson for the Planning and Budgeting Committee and ably seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Milenge.

Sir, I want to make it clear from the outset that, indeed, we support the Motion from our Committee and the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP) as presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because this is normal for any government. Borrowing is permissible for any government and –

Mr Mposha interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I want to be protected from one of the hon. Ministers who wants to continue debating whilst seated.

Mr Jamba: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, what I am just trying to say is that what we see in terms of the sectors where the hon. Minister wants to apply the funds that have been borrowed are sectors that have already been supported. I can cite classic examples here on the table on page 5. The hon. Minister is seeking to allocate some funds from the borrowed resources to the tourism industry, knowing very well that some of the enablers in the tourism industry have been financed by already contracted debt. The three major airports that we have now are facilities which make tourists feel that they have arrived in the country.

Mr Speaker, that is borrowing we should avoid to term as ‘reckless borrowing’ because already, that is an enabler in this sector where the hon. Minister is channelling some more resources from the borrowed funds. Let us come to –

Mr Nkandu interjected.

Mr Kampyongo: We have to justify because we have to tell our own story, just as they are telling it here, but we have to do it collectively.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister intends to spend some money on the expansion of power transmission lines. What is going to be transmitted? It is because some money was borrowed to invest in generating the same power that our hon. Colleagues now want to transmit. That is how the Government works. That is what I mean when I say this is how the Government should operate and that Government is a going concern. That is how we should be looking at issues.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, we see that the Government is also borrowing to put some funds – I know that my honourable Chairperson for the Committee on Parastatals is aware that when we went to Kabwe, we saw the desperate situation at the water supply facility. This facility requires some financial injection. How different is it from the borrowed money that we injected in the Kafue Bulk Water Supply Project which we visited with the Chairperson? There is a marvel of an infrastructure that we saw at the Kafue Bulk Water Supply Project and I am happy that the President appreciated it as proper borrowing.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mwa le suna po fye.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am just welcoming our hon. Colleagues to the club of managing State affairs. They cannot come and say that they will never borrow or they will not be able to borrow. That is the only challenge we have. They must look at what was invested into. We are now able to drive on roads that are called roads. We know how Lusaka was ten years ago. It was like a town coming out of war. Now you are able to borrow, and it is a going concern.

Mr Nyambose: Like Chasefu.

Mr Kampyongo: It is a going concern.

Mr Speaker, the only concern we have, though, is that – the transformation of every economy depends on ownership. Ownership determines the capacity of the Government to pay because at the end of the day, nkongole ni nkongole. There are concessional loans, as we have been informed, coming from multilateral institutions.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am coming to interpret what I just said. What I am just saying is that a debt is a debt; nkongole ni nkongole. Whether you borrow kaloba or whatever, it is nkongole that needs to be paid. We have been told that these are concessional loans and the repayment periods could be longer, but at the end of the day, we will need to pay.

Sir, we need to take ownership of the economic transformation through what is being attempted. In this regard, I want to advise the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. The action we took in the mining sector was basically to ensure that the country gets –

Interjection

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we wanted the mining sector to start contributing to the economy in a meaningful way as it is the only natural capital that we are guaranteed and that we have. To diversify into agriculture is just to supplement. Otherwise, what we have is the natural capital underground.

Mr Speaker, the actions we took on the mining giants should be an advantage to our hon. Colleagues on your right. They need to get the mining sector right. Then next year, we might see a different ABP. Why? We would have started generating our own resources. Then we can deal with the debts that we have and the debt that they are contracting. We are all contracting debts. We are all kongolaling.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: We are all borrowing. When we were borrowing, we also knew that we needed to borrow for the projects that I talked about. Our hon. Colleagues are also coming to borrow for the reasons that they have given, which is normal for a government, but what I am saying is that we need to have a guaranteed revenue source for us to pay back these debts. The hon. Colleagues will not be there in 20 years when some of these concessional loans will have to be paid.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: We also used to say that while sitting where you are sitting, but we are here.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: It is possible that you will not be there twenty years from now.

Hon. UPND Member: We will be there.

Mr Kampyongo: So, Mr Speaker, we have a responsibility to do things right. In going forward, we are advising our colleagues to get the mines. The concessions that they are giving to the mines are not helpful. We are being sincere with them. What they have started is something that they can benefit from. Do it right in Mopani Copper Mines (MCM), Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) and other emerging mines so that we get what we are supposed to get from that sector. Only then shall we see a different borrowing plan next year. That is what we want to see. We are borrowing more than US$2billion as stated in the plan plus what we already contracted last year in addition to the special drawing rights that we are going to be getting from the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

Sir, the most important thing is to get ownership of the economic transformation by getting what we deserve to get from the mining sector.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Infrastructure Housing and Urban Development (Eng. Milupi): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for the opportunity to contribute to this non controversial Motion. I thank your Committee for having delivered an excellent report and good analysis on what is going on.

Mr Speaker, this document, the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP), goes to the very essence of what Parliamentary democracy is all about. We have to understand what the role of Parliament is where there is the separation of powers.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: One of the duties of Parliament is to make laws, which is very fundamental. In terms of the utilisation of resources, it is the role of Parliament to appropriate. It is this House, Mr Speaker, which determines how much money is given to the Executive for it to spend. Part of that money which is given to the Executive, in a situation in which locally generated revenues are limited, will be borrowed. It is, therefore, appropriate that when any country borrows, where there is the separation of powers and where the responsibility to appropriate lies with Parliament, the Executive comes to the House through this plan, the borrowing plan. That is why, we, as the New Dawn Administration, are very proud that for the first time ever, we have brought this plan to the House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: This is so that we can be accountable, and this House, your House, Mr Speaker, can determine what is borrowed; where it is borrowed from; where it is going to be utilised; the interest rates that are going to be paid; and the repayment plan so that, in the final analysis, Zambia never ever …

Mr Mposha: Unvela iwe!

Eng. Milupi: …falls into the debt trap that we find ourselves in.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, in the past, and it is not just the last Patriotic Front (PF) Administration, but all the administrations before did not have that responsibility. Those of us who were here before used to stand in this House whenever there was an annual plan or borrowing to debate why that borrowing had not been brought to the House. For the first time ever, the Government is loosening these.

Mr Mundubile: It is the law.

Eng. Milupi: It is a law that you did not obey.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mundubile: It was not there! It is a new law.

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, a few points are pertinent.

Eng. Milupi looked around for his papers.

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: I do not even need papers for this. It is a very straightforward sort of thing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, let us look at what has happened in terms of what happened before. As we stand here, our debt to Gross Domestic Product (GDP) ratio is well over a 100 per cent.

Ms Sefulo: Hmmm!

Eng. Milupi: That is defined as unsustainable. However, more than that, we have borrowed expensive money. It is not now that we are saying it. Right from 2012 when the first Eurobond was obtained, those of us who were in the Opposition then said that that was unsustainable. It was not only on the first Eurobond. Even on the second Eurobond in 2013 and the third Eurobond in 2014. Now, a number of issues have come up in this debate and one of them pertains to the mining sector. Those on your left, Mr Speaker, have said concessions have been given to the mining industry without corresponding revenue.

Mr Speaker, let me explain. Mining is a long term project, wherever you are. It is a long process. You cannot put money into mining today and expect that in six months time or next year you will get your revenues back. It does not happen like that.

Mr Mabeta: Correct!

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, what has happened to mining in this country over the years, say ten or eleven years ago is that this country was producing 400,000 metric tonnes of copper. Our neighbour to the north, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) was producing…

Mr Mutelo: 200!

Eng. Milupi: …200,000 metric tonnes. We were producing 800,000 metric tonnes and the DRC was producing 400,000 metric tonnes.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Eng. Milupi: Ten years later, very little investment has gone into mining this side of the country. So, as we speak now, Zambia is producing 800,000 metric tonnes because of the various restrictive taxation regimes that we had in this country.

Mr Mabeta: The PF!

Eng. Milupi: Investment capital has gone to the other side, in the DRC. As a result, we are still producing 800,000 metric tonnes while the DRC, which was producing 400,000 metric tonnes, is now producing 1.8 million metric tonnes.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: In order to kick start this economy, we, as the New Dawn Administration, have said that within the next ten years, we want copper production to rise from 800,000 metric tonnes to 3 million metric tonnes.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: That will not happen without inward investment whether it is foreign or local.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: That is why it is necessary, first of all, to look at the taxation regimes, concessions that are happening and all manner associated with attracting capital within the mining sector.

So, when we talk about the mining sector, you can continue to tax the mining sector as much as you want, but if there is no inward flow of capital, you will get nothing out of the mining sector.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: I speak from experience, Mr Speaker.

Now, if you look at this plan, Mr Speaker, the New Dawn Administration has clearly stated where the money will be used. Not only that, but also where the money will borrowed from and in almost all these cases, it will be concessionary loans.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, when we talk about the tourism sector, the K100 million that is going there, quite clearly, will result in employment and in getting our economy going. The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu says there were airports, but they were very expensive airports. The Kenneth Kaunda International Airport at US$359 million is not worth it.

Hon. PF Members: What?

Eng. Milupi: The Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe Airport at almost US$400 million is not worth that kind of money.

Interruptions

Eng. Milupi: So, that was expensive money and there was no monitoring as to what projects were going to cost.

Hon. Member’s time expired.

Hon. UPND Members: Continue!

Eng. Milupi: Compare Kenneth Kaunda International Airport with this Mulungushi International Conference Centre.

Hon. PF Members: Your time is up!

Hon. UPND Members: Continue!

Eng. Milupi: Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the people of Chilubi would like to add their voice on the debate on debt. Let me start by appreciating the report which has highlighted many bottlenecks regarding the debt.

Mr Speaker, the 2022 and 2023 budgets are what are called in biology ‘monozygotic twins.’

Laughter

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, they are called monozygotic twins because the rate at which they are borrowing is only separated by US$200 million. I say so because borrowing niyamene, manje ka borrowing’idwe.

Laughter

Mr Fube: Yes! It is good that we have operationalised the law and added that substance, the borrowing plan. However, whether the loans are concessional, in some way, we are mortgaging our future at a very fast rate. What I mean by this is that, we find that the New Deal Government – I mean then New Dawn Government – I usually confuse the two because vama new new siniviziba.

Laughter

Mr Fube: In the 2022 Budget, if you follow every detail, the New Dawn Government would have borrowed to a tune of K3 billion. In the 2023 Budget, it is proposing to borrow to a tune of K3.2 billion. Compared to what the Patriotic Front (PF) borrowed in ten years, which is K13.25 billion, the rate at which this Government is moving, by the time it gets to the fifth year, whether it is concessional loans or not, it would have borrowed K15 billion. If need be –

Ms Sefulo: Says who?

Mr Fube: Please, you will be given your time. Can I debate?

Mr Speaker, if, by any chance, Zambians will be merciful and give it ten years, it can borrow K30 billion.

Mr Michelo: Question!

Mr Fube: Yes.

Mr Speaker, another factor that is separating the two borrowings is consumption versus production or investment. When you look at the use of the debt under the PF, there many investments that are standing such as what you see when you go to Kafue. I think the hon. Minister of Energy mentioned the investment in Itezhi Tezhi. People were saying kimasholi today, but he explained that the investment was properly done.

Mr Speaker, currently, this Government has pushed us into what is called demand deficiency unemployment and I will demonstrate. Demand deficiency unemployment is where they have put more money, including special drawing rights, into employing teachers and health workers. What that will cause in future is a situation where we will have more teachers churning out many educated people and we will have redundancy in other professions. As such, the Government will have no leverage to employ other people, especially when you look at –

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Fube: Can I finish!

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, when you look at the monozygotic twins I referred to, ...

Laughter

Mr Fube: ... they do not have a mechanism. If you look at this year’s theme, it talks about growing the economy. Economic gains should have a trickledown effect on people’s livelihood, but there is nothing for Zambians. When you go to incentives, there is nothing for Zambians. We are ready to lose K2.8 million with a smile. If you look at what we are going to collect for fines, for instance, we are going to collect K8.6 billion. From the mines, because of the K2.8 billion which we are losing with a smile, we will collect K8.9 billion. If you compare that, the only difference is K300 million. If that is the way to go with the debt they are boasting about, it means we are burying our future.

Mr Speaker, I know that we can get excited like we got when I talked about demand deficiency unemployment. It is knocking on the door. We are rushing to employing in the defence forces, but are not growing the private sector were things can fall in place. This is a liberalised economy. It is not a commandist economy; meaning that mechanisms matter.

Mr Speaker, in this case, I want to take you to a mechanism called ‘price mechanism’. It has affected energy, electricity tariffs and fuel. Given that scenario, what we are talking about is a confused State, chipante pante kind of arrangement ...

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Fube: ...where we find that we do not have the proper drive to control the economy and put it together. We still have policies within that Budget which are still speaking to a commandist structure as though we have a price control act when we do not.

Mr Speaker, given that situation, yes, we need to borrow, but the rate at which we are borrowing is alarming. I think I did demonstrate, which I think the hon. Minister of Finance and National planning cannot argue, that we have borrowed that much.

Mr Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister say that what is important is how you use the money that is borrowed. I do agree. So, what is there, for instance, to develop the mining sector which is our mineral wealth? At the international market, 71 per cent of our exports is copper. How are we in control of the copper, cobalt and gold? Currently, we have gold, but it is not one of the minerals that we are using as reserve assets. The last time I checked, the 49kg of gold that is sitting at the Bank of Zambia was put there by the PF and not the United Party for National Development (UPND). So, with all these scenarios, they want to do chi pante pante and then clap for themselves. It is a dangerous path. We need to know that we are managing these affairs on behalf of future generations.

Interruptions

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, we need to be ... mindful ...

Interruptions

Fube: You pick small things

Interruptions

Fube: We need to be mindful that we are not the only ones to exist. Our children’s future and that of their children should be safeguarded in this case. If we become this careless, especially at the rate we are borrowing, we are burying the country.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I rest my case.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Technical fault on the Public Address (PA) system

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, transmission has been restored.

The Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security (Mr Mwiimbu): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Motion that has been ably moved by Hon. Chaatila, the Chairperson of your Committee, and seconded by Hon. Chonde

Mr Speaker, I have listened attentively, in particular, to the chi pante pante submission by the immediate past debater.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: What does chi pante pante mean?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, chi pante pante means kicking all over without any direction.

Laughter

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I want to state that the United Party for National Development (UPND) Government or the New Dawn Administration has been consistent in indicating that it shall rule in accordance with the Constitution of Zambia, and has, indeed, abided by that resolution.

Mr Speaker, you may recall that this Constitution was passed and signed by the President of the Republic of Zambia in January 2016. From that time, our hon. Colleagues on your left resisted to abide by the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, on a number of occasions, in this House, we did raise issues pertaining to abiding by constitutional provisions. We moved Motions and raised issues pertaining to the need for the Government then to bring into operation provisions of the law in regard to borrowing. They resisted. They refused, these our hon. Colleagues on your left.

Mr Speaker, as a result of that negligence that was exhibited by our hon. Colleagues, they ended up over borrowing. They not only over-borrowed, but also did recklessly so.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we have evidence to show that some of the borrowings were not utilised prudently. As a result of what they did, we, as a country, ended up being a country that is not able to meet its financial obligations.

Realising the mistakes our colleagues made, we, as the New Dawn Administration, have decided to abide by the law by coming to this House and presenting, transparently and prudently, on behalf of the people of Zambia, our borrowing plan for the 2023 Budget calendar. That is how a responsible Government must behave.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: All of us, even those in the Opposition, are able to scrutinise how our money, as the people of this country, will be utilised. We are very proud that there is transparency, for the first time in the history of this country.

Hon. Government Member: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: There has never been any borrowing plan submitted for scrutiny by this House. This is the first time. I have no doubt in my mind that even those who are trying to criticise are happy inside, and I can see them smiling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkandu: Mr Kampyongo!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Even the Leader of the Opposition has not risen to object, for the first time. That is prudence.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, there was also another argument that we are giving concessions to mines at the expense of other taxpayers. In the history of this country, I have never known a Government that was so reckless pertaining to the management of mines in this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: You will recall that the previous Government of the Patriotic Front (PF) entered into a contract with the worst contractual obligations with the previous owners of Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) …

Hon. Government Member: Correct! Glencore!

Mr Mwiimbu: … to the extent that this Government is not benefiting from that agreement. As a result of that agreement, MCM has collapsed. We are not getting any benefits from it because of the recklessness of our hon. Colleagues on your left who want to shift the blame onto us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Even the workers of Mopani Copper Mines on the Copperbelt rose and objected, but our hon. Colleagues could not listen because they had interests in what transpired in that mine.

Hon. Government Members: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: We, under the able leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, shall revive the mining sector in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: One way of reviving the mining sector is to give concessions so that the mines can grow and be revitalised.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: You cannot over-milk a cow which you do not feed. That is what they have done.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Currently, MCM and Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) cannot pay their contractors because they are on their knees. They are in the intensive care unit. It is only us, under the able leadership of President Hakainde Hichilema, who are trying to revive the mining sector. Very soon, you will see what this able Government is going to do for the benefit of this country and future generations. When we announce what we are going to do, all of them on that side will be queuing up to join the UPND because they will never come back.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasandwe: Rumour mongering!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, you do not kill industry because you want to get taxes.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: You give incentives so that the industry grows and you are able to get taxes.

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Sit down!

Hon. Government Member: Use the gadget!

Mr Mwiimbu: I know the hon. Member wants to use Boba TV here. Boba is not seen outside this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, thank you, once again, for the opportunity to give a few comments on this important topic of the Annual Borrowing Plan.

Mr Speaker, this is a great day in our history, as a country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe: It is a great day in our history, as a country, because for the first time, both those on the left and the right agree that it is important to borrow.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: For the first time. At some point, there was always an argument that the Government should not borrow.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kang’ombe: What we are having is one of these many frank conversations that we should always have. When the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi was speaking, I was listening and when the Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development was speaking, I was listening. You have to listen to literally everyone. Even when the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi was speaking, I was listening.

Mr Kambita: East!

Mr Kang’ombe: In everything that was said by all the speakers, no one said borrowing is a bad thing; for the first time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Nyirenda: They have agreed!

Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Speaker, if you go back in history, borrowing was always a bad thing.

Mr Nkandu: Proper borrowing!

Mr Kang’ombe: This is happening for the first time and I want to emphasise that. I may take four minutes to emphasise this point.

Mr Nkandu: Over borrowing is bad.

Mr Kang’ombe: Sir, the constituency I come from has challenges of infrastructure. If you are driving from Mulenga Compound going to Ndeke, we did a very nice road. That time, I served as Mayor of Kitwe. That money was borrowed, but today Mulenga has partly been upgraded.

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kang’ombe: If you go to Kafulafuta, there is a water project that is supposed to give people in specific areas access to water. Masaiti needs to benefit. It needs to have clean water. The Government decided that it needed to borrow money to provide infrastructure. The hon. Minister responsible for water development and sanitation at that time needed money to bridge that gap in infrastructure, and the money was borrowed.

Sir, I have looked at the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP) and I know the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central is excited. My mother there is very excited because there is money that has to be borrowed in the ABP. I know she is very excited …

Ms Halwiindi: Question!

Laughter

Mr Kang’ombe: … that money will be borrowed. That is the same excitement I used to have when I was mayor telling the President that we needed roads in Kitwe. Today, the central business district in Kitwe looks very beautiful.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kang’ombe: That is a fact. Money was borrowed and we did very beautiful roads in Kitwe.

What am I trying to say, Mr Speaker? A country that recognises its infrastructure gap must close that gap. How do you close that gap? You have to ask yourself: Do you wait for twenty years until the economy is able to generate its own revenue or do you look for stakeholders to support your Budget? That is what this Annual Borrowing Plan is. It is a plan to support the Budget. How are we going to support the Budget? Part of the money will be borrowed externally while part of it will be borrowed internally.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning responded to a question I raised about four months ago on how he planned to reduce interest rates. He is on record indicating that part of the strategy is for the Government to avoid borrowing locally. He is on record responding to a question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa. However, when I look at the Annual Borrowing Plan, I see domestic borrowing.

Mr Mundubile: Heavy!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kang’ombe: I do not want to stand here to blame the hon. Minister because I know that in Government, you have to realise that certain things are inevitable.

Sometimes, it is necessary to borrow, even locally. That is what the Government is doing. It is borrowing externally and internally. We are not going to condone it because this is a very special day in our history. I repeat; it is a special day because from now on, the conversation will change. When an issue comes, we will all show the right objectivity in as far as national matters are concerned. If money is needed to be borrowed because there is an activity that has to be supported, the hon. Minister can count on us. We will tell him, “Yes, please, proceed. This is a very important project.” We need to support. When an idea comes to support the Government, we have to support it.

Hon. Government Member: No Kaloba.

Mr Kang’ombe: Mr Speaker, I am excited today because each one of us will leave this House reflecting that what is good for Zambia is good for Zambia. If Zambia has been lagging behind in terms of infrastructure, we must agree on sides, your left and right, that the Government should find the money to bridge that gap.

Mr Speaker, when our colleagues who visit from Zimbabwe and those who are Mayors in other cities come to Lusaka, they tell us that we did a good job with the capital city.

Interjection

Mr Kang’ombe: Yes, that is what they say. They are proud of what we did.

Even our hon. Colleagues, this is their time to do things that will leave legacies. People will be able to say they did well. So, when they bring ABPs, a reminder to the people of Zambia that borrowing is normal. We will definitely support them. We will support them. They can rely on us.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Interruptions

Mr Kang’ombe: I have one more minute. I can relax and debate because I know the country is listening. The country is listening to the fact that it is important to support the bridging of infrastructure gaps. If there are gaps in education, for example, the hon. Minister of Education needs money to complete the construction of many schools. We need to give him money as Parliament. So, if he brings a plan here, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we will support it.

Mr Speaker, borrowing is normal that is the message for today, according to the gospel from Kamfinsa Constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Mtolo): Mr Speaker, I stand to give the right information to the country and not to misinform it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: I, therefore, will divide my debate into three parts.

Mr Speaker, firstly, today’s Motion is an issue of governance. It is not controversial. Even if you are the most controversial debater, it is very difficult to debate this Motion because it is a straightforward issue of governance. It should not be used, and this is what is important, to misinform the nation. Some of the debates here are misinforming the nation.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, secondly, this Motion should not be used to launder bad deeds of the past. No, we should not allow that. We should not allow that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Let me explain why I am saying this, and then move on to the second point.

Mr Speaker, borrowing is in two ways. You can borrow on a very bad term sheet or you can borrow on a very good one. What am I saying? Let me explain this to one lawyer who is looking at me with confusion.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

Interruption

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, when you borrow at 0.75 per cent interest, you cannot, for heaven’s sake, compare it to liable plus 2 or 4 per cent which comes to about 8 to 12 per cent. The two are not comparable. We are borrowing now at 0.75 per cent and not at 8 per cent. So, you cannot compare the two. This should not be used to launder 8 per cent interest. That was wrong. When you borrow at thirty years’ concession, you cannot compare that to ten years.

Madam Speaker, this lawyer seated this side on my right here –

Mr Mundubile: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr Mundubile: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order, pursuant to Standing Order 65.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister on the Floor is selective in picking what suites his debate as regards interest rates. What remains a fact is that the Government is borrowing both from foreign creditors and domestic institutions.

Mr Speaker, when he talked about that interest, he should have gone further to also state at what interest the Government is borrowing from the domestic market. If he did so, he was going to arrive at a conclusion that the rates at which the Government is borrowing from the domestic market are equally high. Therefore, is he in order to stand confidently in his seat and mislead the nation whilst I seat here and listen to him, as Leader of the Opposition? Is he in order?

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: If I heard the hon. Minister clearly, he emphasised on concessional borrowing. Concessional borrowing by nature has negligible interest and the repayment period is negotiable.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, the difference between a commercial market loan and a concessional loan is that for a concessional loan, the interest rate is negotiable and the repayment period is flexible.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Minister continue his debate.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I am here to inform the country on the correct position.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: You cannot compare 0.75 per cent, less than 1 per cent, on the US$300 million that we are borrowing as the Ministry of Agriculture to the 8 to almost 12 per cent that was used on the Eurobond. You cannot. Therefore, let us not confuse the country.

Mr Speaker, you cannot compare thirty years to ten years. You cannot. So, we should inform the country the right thing. This Republic of Zambia should know that the New Dawn Government is borrowing on concessional rates which you well defined, Mr Speaker, and I thank you for that definition.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, let me also dispel another thing that I heard one hon. Member of Parliament discuss, and very wrongly, misinforming the country. This hon. Member said we are not borrowing for investment, but for consumption. How wrong can that statement be?

Mr Speaker, we are borrowing from the World Bank as the Ministry of Agriculture US$300 million. Where is this money going? This money is going to Shiwang’andu Farm Block and to open up roads in Shiwang’andu so that the people of Shiwang’andu can have access to the farm block.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, there are no roads in that farm block. We are going to construct roads. Is that not an investment? There are no dams in this farm block and we want to put dams. Is that not an investment?

Mr Speaker, there are very few extension members of staff in these farm blocks and we are going to get extension staff in those farm blocks. Is that not an investment?

Mr Speaker, this is what we call ‘adding value to a country.’ That is what we are doing with these concessional loans. Please, let us not compare them to those commercial loans which we got and are now hitting us below the belt. That was wrong.

Mr Speaker, when we were on your left side and questioned one hon. Member of Parliament who then was hon. Minister responsible for finance who did not want to talk about key indicators, he used beautiful language –

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mtolo: I am talking about the late former hon. Minister responsible for finance. He said, in this House:

 “We are not a Government that will bask in the empty glory of statistical euphoria”

Mr Speaker, honestly speaking, “We are not a Government that will bask in the empty glory of statistical euphoria” and today –

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, it appears that the hon. Minister is excited by the support you gave him during –

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we have been sitting quietly trying to put head and tail of the hon. Minister’s debate and I know that he knows that borrowing is historical. He was our Chief Whip for the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD). He knows the rates at which the borrowing was done. Is the hon. Minister in order to refer to the dead who are not part of this plan –

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, Standing Orders 65 demands that we are relevant to the subject matter on the Floor.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: We are debating the Annual Borrowing Plan for 2023. We know that Hon. Dr Musokotwane was an hon. Minister in the MMD, twenty years ago, and he is still alive. Is the hon. Minister in order to start telling us about someone who is dead, and we do not know who he is referring to, when the plan is very clear. I seek your serious ruling and guidance on the hon. Minister and former Chief Whip for the MMD.

Interjections

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

I think the hon. Minister was debating the office and not an individual.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Even when we die, if we were occupants of particular offices, our offices still remain. So, they can be used as referral points.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, you may proceed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, as I continue to properly inform the country, the main points have stood out. Having heard that everyone is agreed that we need to borrow, I want to make it very clear that borrowing can come into two ways. There can be borrowing on good rates and on bad rates. What we experienced was very bad borrowing and should not be allowed to be laundered using this good borrowing which we are seeing now.

Interjections

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I can see that, really, the debate has been heard. When you see people reacting to your debate, you know that you have delivered the message. Therefore, it is not necessary for me to continue. I am sure that the listeners in the beautiful Republic of Zambia have heard that this borrowing is on very good rates of less than 1 per cent and the period of almost thirty years.

Mr Speaker, it is for investment to correct things. I gave an example of the agricultural sector where we are borrowing US$3 million on 0. 75 per cent of thirty years concession. You cannot have it better.

Mr Speaker, shall we take it that the New Dawn Government is doing the right thing and borrowing in the right manner? One good colleague of mine, the hon. Member of Parliament who is a lawyer has finally taken it very well that things which we are now doing, as the New Dawn Government, are proper and transparent, hence this policy document which has been brought to the honourable House.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Technology and Science (Mr Mutati) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane)): Mr Speaker, I start by thanking your Committee for supporting the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP). The plan which indicates that on a net basis domestically, we are going to borrow US$15.6 billion and externally US$1.4 billion with US$770.4 million being dispensed in 2023.

Mr Speaker, every country borrows, without exception.

Mr Mulenga: Finally.

Mr Mutati: However, what matters, Mr Speaker, firstly, is the purpose for which it borrows and the quantum that it borrows.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Secondly, it is the cost and the terms of that borrowing.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: However, much more important is the capacity for it to repay.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

With the absence of capacity, it is getting into trouble.

Mr Speaker, the New Dawn Government has defined some basic principles. Firstly, that it is going to be transparent and accountable when it comes to borrowing. Secondly, that we are going to abandon irresponsible borrowing

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Any borrowing will be supported by fiscal discipline.

Mr Speaker, thirdly, is that we are going to deal with the debt by way of restructuring it. That debt will be restructured to sustainable levels. Lastly, we shall no longer borrow on a commercial basis, but only on concessionary basis.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, much more important is that we are going to reduce the borrowing from 3.5 per cent to 1.9 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Those are the principles that we have put in place. We think these principles are important.

Now, in responding to some of the specifics of the issues that have been raised –

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, there was a point that was raised that next year, we are going to borrow US$78 billion. We need to understand the difference between financial accounting and budgeting. Financial accounting looks back while budgeting looks into the future.

Mr Kambita: Hear! Hear!

Mr Mutati: So, on a net basis, by the end of 2023, our net borrowings will remain at US$15.3 billion and that is what it means. The hon. Members argued that President Hakainde Hichilema and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said there would be a moratorium on borrowing. What they said were two things; that they will be a moratorium on commercial borrowing. We shall only borrow on a concessional basis.

Mr Simumba: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, the second point, when they spoke about a moratorium, is that borrowing would be driven by fiscal discipline. That is what they said. They have never shifted from that perspective.

Mr Speaker, your Committee raised the issue of the Medium Term Debt Strategy and the legality of that strategy.

Mr Mung’andu: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, the law, under the Public Finance Management Act, states that the Medium Term Debt Strategy (MTDS) will be triggered on the second Friday of the year. It would not have been triggered in January this year because the law was not passed. It was only passed in August.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: So, that will only apply next year. In this regard, this Government is within the confines of the law to present to this Parliament the Annual Borrowing Plan (ABP) on the basis of legality...

Mr Mundubile: On a procedural point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mutati: ...because we do not do anything that is illegal.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, a point was raised on parastatals, that they are not part of the ABP. You cannot push somebody to borrow without a purpose. Parastatals have said that they do not need to borrow. This is why they are not part of the borrowing plan. If the need arises, we will bring the issue to Parliament as we have done now on the basis of transparency and accountability. We will do that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, a point was raised on the issue of money going to social sectors. What is important when you look into the 2023 Budget is that the bulk of it has gone to the productive sectors.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: The hon. Minister of Agriculture has said that in his ministry alone, there is US$300 million concessional borrowing. The hon. Minister of Tourism will have US$100 million concessional loan to support Kasaba Bay, Liuwa and other parts and not the way it was raised, that we already have airports. That is not the case because we are talking about tourism that generates revenue and that is what we are borrowing for.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, a point was raised by one of our hon. Colleagues –

Mr Fube: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, let me just add on productive borrowing. A point was raised that we are borrowing. Yes, we are borrowing concessional loans to construct the Tanzania-Zambia Transmission Interconnector to boost the energy exports into East Africa. We are borrowing on a concessional basis. ZESCO Limited has said that it has a surplus of power. You cannot use that surplus if you do not have an exit. So, in our planning, we are creating the path to be able to take or evacuate the power into East Africa at prices that are much more superior as compared to the Southern African Power Pool (SAPP).

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: That is the intention.

Mr Kapyanga: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, you could listen to what anybody says, but we are telling you what is sensible and reasonable, going forward. We are saying that irresponsible borrowing will not be part of our culture.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, a point was raised on the private sector. It was stated that we are going to suffocate it. Now, what we have done is that from 2020 to this year, we have reduced the amount of borrowing by 35 per cent. To support the private sector, what we have said is that we are going to dismantle domestic arrears and, in the Budget, we have put K6.8 billion for this purpose. We have put a further K2.3 billion to attend to pensions. That is meant to stimulate the economy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: This is what responsible budgeting is all about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, in the mining sector, my hon. Colleague here already gave an example. The intention is to create a path to producing 3 million tonnes of ore. You have to have a framework that leads you to that target, including the resolution of the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). We are going to resolve the issue at KCM because it will partly contribute to the 3 million tonnes.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: We will resolve the issues at Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) because it is part of the resolution to reach 3 million tonnes.

The hon. Minister’s time expired.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, that is how you create jobs. This Government is about job creation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: We are not here for picnics.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: We are here to transform the economy so that our friends can say, “Hear, hear!”

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, your time is up.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you and thank the Leader of the Opposition for his attention.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chaatila: Mr Speaker, today is, indeed, a great day. It is a great day in the sense that hon. Members of Parliament have for a long time fought for borrowing to be approved by Parliament. As you know, for a long time, there have been calls for hon. Members of Parliament to approve any borrowing done by the Central Government.

Mr Speaker, going forward, the power is in our hands. The power is in the hands of hon. Members of Parliament in this House. This means that whether it is the United Party for National Development (UPND) or whichever Government that comes, to borrow huge amounts, everyone here would have to approve that borrowing.

Mr Speaker, I thank hon. Members for supporting my call urging them to approve this Motion. I am really grateful for their support.

Sir, let me mention here that I am grateful for the support of the following hon. Members: Hon. Kafwaya, Hon. Wamunyima, Hon. Kambita, Hon. Kampyongo, the hon. Minister of Infrastructure, Housing and Urban Development, Hon. Fube, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Internal Security, Hon. Christopher Kang’ombe, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and the Acting hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I am also grateful to everyone here who has supported this Motion.

Mr Speaker, I thank you very much.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Although you did not appreciate your seconder. I did not hear you.

Mr Chaatila: Mr Speaker, let me put it on record that I am sincerely grateful to the seconder for the way he seconded this Motion. This is Hon. Chonde, the hon. Member of Parliament for Milenge. He is hard-working in the Committee, just like all my other hon. Members of the Committee.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

Question put and agreed to.

BUDGET 2023

(Debate resumed)

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. At the time the House adjourned on Friday, 7^th October, 2022, I was referring to the mining concessions that our Government has given to mining houses.

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

There are too many movements in the House. Let us resume our seats.

Mr Kampyongo: Hey, hon. Ministers, this is your Budget.

Interruptions

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

May the hon. Member debating continue.

Mr Mung’andu: In terms of figures, Mr Speaker, this country is supposed to get about K12 billion from taxes from mines. Instead, the Government has given concessions and we will only get about K8 billion. These figures are in the Budget. We have forfeited K4 billion to mining houses.

Mr Speaker, if you converted K4 billion into dollars, it would be 250 million dollars. That is what the country will be losing annually. Assuming we distributed this money to the 156 constituencies, each constituency would get K25 million. This is the money that this country will be losing out because of these mining concessions. What is more shocking is the fact that when you check the intention, in terms of expansion, mining output declined or contracted in spite of mines getting those concessions.

The final point that I want to drive home, Mr Speaker, is that the hon. Minister indicated that the Tanzania-Zambia Mafuta (TAZAMA) Oil Pipeline will revert to carrying purified or processed oil from Tanzania.

Madam Speaker, has this Government consulted security wings? I ask this question because we do not want to have war lords in our country. Has the Government put in place mechanisms? In countries like Nigeria, there is a problem in the delta region because people are able to puncture these pipelines and siphon processed oil.

Sir, if you look at Dr Kenneth Kaunda’s intention for bringing or importing co-mingled oil, it was specifically to stop that vice. This pipeline is about 1,600 km. Do we have the capacity to guard this pipeline? So, I appeal to the Government to relook at its intention, as I conclude my debate.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamwaata (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. The people of Pemba Constituency acknowledge the achievements made by the New Dawn Government in one year of its being in power.

Mr Speaker, free education is now a reality; from early childhood to Grade 12. I am proud to stand here to inform this House and the nation at large that the people of Pemba Constituency are happy with the New Dawn Administration, especially that 182 pupils have benefited from secondary school bursaries. Mr Speaker, we are talking of girls and boys from typical rural areas who never had a dream to become ‘somebody’ in life. Today, these children have dreams to become doctors and engineers. Indeed, we are thankful to the New Dawn Administration.

Mr Speaker, we are thankful that we no longer face the pupil-teacher ratio challenge that we used to face in our constituency. We are thankful to the New Dawn Administration for employing 30,496 teachers. This is really going to help stabilise the pupil-teacher ratio. It will also improve the quality of education.

Mr Speaker, rural wards in our constituencies have been turned into construction sites. This simply means that we have a lot of work going on in the wards. What are we doing to ensure that we have a pool of skilled man power? In Pemba Constituency, we have provided bursaries to 111 youths who are going to be trained in various courses such as plumbing, carpentry and bricklaying. The idea is to have that pool, in all the wards, of skilled people who are going to ensure that whatever infrastructure we put up will stand the test of time.

Mr Speaker, we have encouraged our youths to form cooperatives, clubs and companies once they graduate. Once they do that, they will be able to apply for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) youth and women empowerment. We will then support and give them enough resources to buy equipment so that they are able to manage their businesses. We thank the New Dawn Government because it is walking the talk.

Mr Speaker, in my constituency, close to 780 households have benefitted from the youth and women empowerment programmes. We are yet to have about 320 households benefit from loans.

Mr Speaker, allow me to also comment on the 2023 Budget. The people of Pemba Constituency are so happy that a further 4,500 teachers will be recruited. We are delighted to hear that teachers who have been acting, some of them as heads of department, headmasters and deputies, will be confirmed in 2023. The curriculum overhaul, which will include financial literacy and anti-corruption, is a welcome move.

Mr Speaker, it is high time that, as a nation, we moved from tantameni, meaning queue up to receive money. This Government is determined to educate our young ones to understand the value of money. It is also determined to educate them so that as they grow, they have a shift in the mind set in terms of understanding that they can stand on their own and manage their own business without necessarily queuing up for employment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamwaata: Mr Speaker, we, the people of Pemba Constituency, are happy with the New Dawn’s move.

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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The House adjourned at 1840 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 12^th October, 2022.

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