Wednesday, 21st April, 2021

Printer Friendly and PDF

Wednesday, 21st April, 2021

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_______

 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

 

PARLIAMENT COVID-19 VACCINATION CENTRE

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that I have authorised the Ministry of Health to set up a Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccination centre here at Parliament Buildings to enable hon. Members of Parliament and staff to access COVID-19 inoculation. The vaccination exercise will commence tomorrow, Thursday, 22nd April, 2021, from 0900 hours to 1600 hours of each working day until further notice. Hon. Members of Parliament and staff are, therefore, urged to take advantage of this facility and get inoculated.

 

I thank you.

 

_______

 

BILLS

 

FIRST READING

 

THE INSURANCE BILL, 2021

 

The Minister of Finance (Dr Ng’andu): Sir, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Insurance Bill No. 36 of 2021. The objects of the Bill are to:

 

  1. provide for the regulation of the insurance industry;
  2. provide for the supervision of insurers, reinsurers and intermediaries;
  3. provide for the financial regulation of insurers, reinsurers and intermediaries;
  4. provide for the regulation and supervision of micro-insurance businesses;
  5. provide for the management and shareholding of insurers, reinsurers and intermediaries;
  6. provide for the auditing and corporate responsibility of insurers, reinsurers and insurance brokers;
  7. continue the existence of the Policyholders’ Protection Committee and the Insurance Fidelity Fund;
  8. provide for the establishment of the National Reinsurance Company;
  9. give effect to the Agreement establishing the African Reinsurance Corporation and the Agreement establishing the ZEP-RE (Preferential Trade Area Reinsurance Company);
  10. repeal and replace the Insurance Act, 1997; and
  11. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 12th May, 2021. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

I thank you.

 

THE LANDS AND DEEDS REGISTRY (Amendment) BILL, 2021

 

The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Mwale) (on behalf of the Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Ms Kapata)): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Lands and Deeds Registry (Amendment) Bill No 37 of 2021. The object of the Bill is to amend the Lands and Deeds Registry Act.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: Is that all there is to it?

 

Mr Mwale: Yes, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Tuesday, 11th May, 2021. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

I thank you.

 

THE LAND SURVEY (Amendment) BILL, 2021

 

The Minister of Lands (Ms Kapata): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Land Survey (Amendment) Bill No. 38 of 2021.

                                                                                                               

Mr Speaker, the object of this Bill is to amend the Land Act so as to provide for:

 

  1. the issuance and maintenance of a diagram, general plan and any other survey records in electronic form;
  2. electronic transactions including the use of electronic and digital signature by the Surveyor General; and
  3. matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: For the record, hon. Minister, this is a Land Survey (Amendment) Bill and not the Lands Act. Do you want to confirm?

 

Ms Kapata: It is the Land Survey (Amendment) Bill, 2021.

 

I thank you Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Tuesday, 11th May, 2021. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

I thank you.

 

THE ELECTRONIC GOVERNMENT BILL, 2021

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, the objects of this Bill are as follows:

 

  1. to enhance the management and promotion of electronic Government services and processes;
  2. to establish the Electronic Government Division in the Office of the President and to provide for its powers and functions;
  3. to facilitate access to electronic Government services to improve service delivery, administrative functions and productivity in order to enhance citizens’ access to Government services and information; and
  4. to provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday, 12th May, 2021. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions on the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

 

I thank you.

 

_______

 

MOTION

 

INTERVENE IN THE PAYMENT OF TERMINAL BENEFITS TO TAZARA RETIREES

 

Mr Kakubo (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to intervene in the payment of terminal benefits to the Tanzania-Zambia Railways Authority (TAZARA) retirees.

 

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, I beg to second.

 

 Mr Kakubo: Mr Speaker, I do not particularly feel too well today. So, I hope the hon. Members will be able to hear me.

 

Mr Speaker, it is, indeed, an honour for me to speak for the people of Kapiri Mposhi and their families once more.

 

Mr Speaker, the House knows that it is not the first time that I have come to speak for the workers and employees as well as the retirees of TAZARA. In case hon. Colleagues are wondering why I have come back again, it is because the livelihood of these people has not improved. If anything, it has become worse.

 

Mr Speaker, the story of TAZARA is one that should not be part of this country. There are two ways that people survive at TAZARA. When you are an employee there, your salary is always in arrears of four to six months. When you are retired, you have to wait, sometimes, for as long as ten years to see your money.

 

Mr Speaker, what is also sad is that some of the retirees have sadly since passed on and left their monies behind. It is not helpful that their surviving spouses and children have not accessed that money either. When you speak to the retirees, each one of them has his/her own unique story to tell. Some of them were train drivers, engineers, human resources personnel and others were technicians. However, what has changed now is that the people who worked so hard for this country at a time when we needed their services have now been declared destitute.

 

Mr Speaker, we have been to this House were we bring some of these matters in the face of the Executive. From the feedback we get, hon. Ministers do not hesitate to distance themselves from responsibility. I recall, in 2018, when I brought a similar matter with regard to TAZARA before this august House, the response of the then hon. Minister of Transport and Communications whose name I cannot recall, was appalling.  I got a copy of the Hansard. I asked him a question at that time, through you, and I said to him:

 

“What is the time frame that the Government thinks it will be able to pay all retirees and all salaries at TAZARA?”

 

 Hon. Mushimba’s answer at the time was, in part was:

 

 “Mr Speaker, tomorrow is not promised or guaranteed” he further went on to say “I think only God knows what will happen tomorrow” and he wound up by saying that, “None of us has the privilege to know what is going to happen tomorrow.’’

 

That was the answer he gave to the retirees and employees of TAZARA.

 

Mr Speaker, the challenge that we get with such answers is that when the Government makes excuses, no one takes responsibility for upholding the rights of workers in the country. Governments exist, primarily, to look out for the interests of workers whether they are in the private sector or working for the Government itself. What has happened is that our colleagues are full of excuses. However, we are dealing with lives here.

 

Sir, I know that the hon. Minister of Finance who is here, last year around June, released about K7 million to pay retirees. Now, that K7 million against what is owed in totality, which is K229 million, is only 0.03 per cent, in absolute terms, and what the Government did at that time was to only cater for 227 out of 2,200 retirees who had been retired between 2007 and 2017. That is a very small number.

 

To add salt to injury, as they say, the Government did not add interest. Some of these workers have worked for TAZARA for thirty years. I spoke to one of the retirees who is based in Livingstone. I asked him to tell me his story, and it is a very sad one. He said he was expecting to get K207,000, including interest, last June, but the hon. Minister seated there only gave him K54,000. When he queried from his Permanent Secretary (PS), he was told that it was impossible for the ministry to pay interest. So, for a period of close to ten years, that money accrued no interest at all. That is very sad because such words being uttered by a Government that has let loose this economy is not helping at all.

 

Mr Speaker, what follows next? What do we do, as a country? I think the question our people

ask today is whether they have a Government in place that is willing to stand up for them and not make excuses. The people are asking whether this Government can guarantee that any man or woman in this country, who is willing to get to work and work hard, will make headway for their family. I think what the people of Zambia are asking, again, is whether this Government is willing to commit and whether it has the levels of commitment required to ensure that the working men and women in this country have their pensions secured. They want their pensions not only secured but also paid on time and in full.

 

Mr Speaker, we have had these discussions with hon. Ministers, and my view is that they have entirely failed on this project. Since they have, maybe, I should take this opportunity to speak on behalf of the people who have worked for TAZARA from Kapiri to Mpika and all the way to Nakonde and some of them are scattered across the country. Perhaps, I should speak directly to the Presidency. He should take interest in something like this which borders on the livelihood of our people. The President must take interest because in a few weeks time, this Parliament will dissolve. Who will speak for our people? The President must make sure that the funds owed to our people, the veterans of TAZARA, are paid without delay before Parliament dissolves. The choice is his. He can either be remembered as a President who never improved the lives of our people or he can stand up and continue to say he worked on a couple of roads. It is entirely up to him. I think what our people will remember mostly is how the President made sure their families were looked after, was it better or worse and not the number of roads that were worked on. I know some people will hang on to that. However, what we are saying, as UPND, is that we place a premium on the livelihood of our people and on the workers of this country.

 

Mr Speaker, I would like to conclude by saying that President Hichilema is standing for Presidency in the summer primarily for problems like this. With all of us on your left assisting in making sure that our people are paid what is due to them. If there is a listening Government in this country, let it pay the money. The Government has no choice. What our people are asking for is nothing extravagant. They are not asking for handouts, as it has become custom by Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Ministers to give out handouts. That is not what they are asking for. Our people are looking for the money which they worked for. If the money is not paid now, then, it will be of no value. Hon. Minister of Finance, as you know, our currency is in a negative velocity. It is losing value every day. So, if someone got retired in 2007 and you are not adding interest, whatever you are paying to them today, based on the United States Dollar, especially, means nothing. The currency has depreciated. Its value has depleted.

 

Mr Speaker, today, we shall see, in my view and that of my hon. Colleagues, whether this Government can commit to ensuring that our people get the money that is owed to them.

 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Now, Sir.

 

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Mr Speaker, I want to thank Hon. Kakubo for moving a well-articulated Motion.

 

Mr Speaker, however, I speak with a sad heart. The happenings of –

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to raise a very serious constitutional point of order on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

 

Sir, the nation and we, as hon. Members of Parliament, would like to hear from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs on whether there is a State of Emergency which is applicable in this country, considering that the rights of individuals who are being incarcerated are being violated.

 

Mr Speaker, we have taken note of the fact that of late, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, through the Zambia Police Service, has been detaining people in this country for a period exceeding forty-eight hours. We have evidence of members of the public having been detained for more than thirty days without being charged or being taken to court, contrary to the laws that are obtaining in this country.

 

Mr Speaker, as if that is not enough, we have also noted, with concern, that in certain situations, even where there is a challenge in the courts of law pertaining to the illegal detentions, the courts’ hands have been tied because the Executive, through its wings, has not been responding and has been ignoring court orders with impunity.

 

Mr Speaker, the issue is that if there is a State of Emergency in place, there are certain orders and directions that are given by the President relating to the detention of individuals. We are not aware of any such orders in the country. Is the Executive, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, in particular, in order to continue detaining people in this country in violation of the law and of their rights wherein people are being detained without being charged or being taken to court?

 

Mr Speaker, for ease of reference, I have in mind the case of Hon. Sejani, the Mayor for Mazabuka, and the Mayor for Choma who have been in police detention for more than thirty days without any charge and without being taken before the courts of law. Is the Government in order to continue abrogating the law and not informing the nation about detention orders having been signed and executed by the President of the Republic of Zambia? If there is a State of Emergency that is in place, could the Government tell the nation that the rights of individuals can be violated with impunity? Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to remain quiet?

 

Sir, I seek your ruling.

 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that I would like us to be very focused. In my opinion, the best way to be focused on this subject is for you to ask a question and, then, I will direct it to the hon. Minister so that he can respond very specifically to the issues you have raised.

 

That is my ruling.

 

 

May the hon. Member for Mwembezhi continue.

 

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, what is happening at the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) is a sad story because the retirees from Kapiri Mposhi, Mpika and all the way to Nakonde are not being taken care of. At the time of retiring, if a retiree’s package was about US$15,000, today, that money is just about US$5,000 or US$3,000 and we are not even assured if that money will be paid.

 

Sir, I want to ask the hon. Minister of Finance to critically look into the suffering of the people. When people are suffering, we must not be happy as we sleep and eat very well and drive big cars because our friends are suffering to a point of not having food, yet they worked for their money, which money should be given to them.

 

Mr Speaker, if you want to know how much people are suffering, you just need to see how they look at politics as a source of income and a better life. This is evident by the number of people applying to be adopted to contest seats as hon. Members of Parliament in this country. They have seen that even if you work very hard, you will not get your salary or pension, cannot take your children to school and will not pay your rentals. However, if you become a politician, you easily get rich because you are thieves.

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, resume your seat. Could you repeat what you said.

 

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, I said the people view politicians as thieves who can easily get rich as long as they get into politics. This is how people view –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, you know the status of the word “thief”, especially in the context in which you have used it. It will not be acceptable in this august House. Withdraw it.

 

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word “thieves” and replace it with people who misappropriate public funds and get rich. Therefore, nowadays, working hard for thirty years does not pay but if you just join politics for five years, if you came poor, you will become a rich man and you will not even be touched.

 

Mr Speaker, the people are suffering. Just look at Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). What is happening is that people who were laid off at KCM are being paid in phases. Those under Phase I were paid three weeks ago and the mine will be paying another phase, maybe, in July and another after the elections. Is that the way we are going to run our state, yet people are moving about with a lot of cash in their hand claiming to be empowering people? What empowerment is that?

 

Mr Speaker, I will not use the word that I wanted to use, but I can tell you that the general populous in Zambia is now not going to work.

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mwembezhi!

 

Resume your seat.

 

If you followed how the mover of the Motion, himself, presented his case, you would see that he was very clear and focused. I would have imagined that you, yourself, would simply second him in that regard. Now, you have gone to the Copperbelt, and now talking about Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). Could you realign your debate in accordance with the Motion at hand.

 

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, I am talking about the retirees of TAZARA because they are just like the former KCM workers. What is happening in this state is that people are being retired without being paid just like the former workers at TAZARA. This tendency of not paying people who have worked very hard is a recipe for anarchy.

 

Mr Speaker, nowadays, it does not matter how hard one works or studies in school, he/she is not going to be paid well. All you need to do is become a politician. Then, you will start moving around with money, yet you cannot pay the former employees of TAZARA, who have worked for this money and are due to be paid. Instead, you are going round dishing out money saying that you are empowering people.

 

Mr Speaker, we are begging the hon. Minister of Finance to, please, pay these people. They are suffering and they have suffered enough. We have seen money going around. We do not know whether the political parties have more money than the State. Could the hon. Minister of Finance, please, give these people the money because they are suffering.

 

Mr Speaker, I do know how best I can articulate this issue, but I want to tell you that this is a very bad test of what is happening. People along the TAZARA railway line have now become destitute. The Government must ensure that it pays them and also look at other retirees. I have given you an example where people are being paid in phases. What is happening in this country is not good. We have become destitute.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion that was ably moved by the Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi, Hon. Stanley Kakubo.

 

Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to state that I am in total support of the Motion that is on the Floor of the House and urge this House to equally support it so that those suffering, the workers at the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) are paid at once. Paying the workers and the former workers will help alleviate their suffering as well as that of the families that depend on them.

 

Mr Speaker, I was privileged, through the Committee on Parastatal Bodies, to actually take a study of the operations at TAZARA Railways. The findings of that study by your Committee are in public domain. What came out is a really sad story. We have a situation where an agreement is struck between us and our partners in this business venture, which is a joint venture between the Republic of Zambia and the Republic Tanzania, and our colleagues on the Tanzanian side implement what has been agreed upon. I am also aware, and may I hasten to state that there is actually a committee of minsters that usually sits to look at the issue of TAZARA. These are ministers that are drawn from Tanzania and Zambia.

 

Mr Speaker, some of the issues that are discussed there are the actual emoluments for these workers; what is owed to those that are retired and also the emoluments for those that are currently working. Currently, our colleagues on the Tanzanian side are up to date with workers salaries and emoluments. They do not owe any one. However, we on the Zambian side are still struggling, hence the situation in which we are now where the hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi ended up moving this Motion because he is feeling the heat. Most of the TAZARA workers stay in his constituency and these are the suffering people. Therefore, it goes without saying that the Zambian Government is at fault in this matter. That is why this House needs to be honourable enough and support this Motion so that the Executive hears it.

 

Mr Speaker, we have a situation where the former TAZARA workers, those who are retired and are owed terminal benefits, are still owed for several years. That debt is sitting on the books of TAZARA. Based on the current operations of TAZARA, it cannot afford to pay those workers. It is practically impossible even to support its own operations at the moment.

 

Mr Speaker, when I begun, I stated that I had to take a study of the operations of TAZARA and I can tell you that at the moment, it does not even have enough locomotives to support its operations. We are still thinking of how to recapitalise TAZARA. Even when an agreement has been reached to recapitalise it, the Zambian Government has never fulfilled its obligations as it is supposed to. Therefore, how do we trust this Patriotic Front (PF) Government to continue running these Government institutions in this way?

 

Mr Speaker, it is high time TAZARA workers woke up to see whether the Government really cares for them or not. They should see whether an alternative Government is a solution to this problem. I think this is the time that people need to reflect and put these partisan politics aside. We need to sort out the problem at TAZARA and now is the time to do that because the problem is becoming chronic.

 

Mr Speaker, the non payment of workers at TAZARA is affecting their families and people’s children are no longer going school. We have a situation where people have become destitute as if they were not professionals who are specialists in different fields. We have very few options in terms of railway companies that can employ them to take up alternative employment. Therefore, we urge the Government to ensure that it sorts out this problem by ensuring that those retired, declared redundant and those who are no longer working for TAZARA are paid. That way, they pursue other endeavours for their livelihood.

 

Sir, I thank you for giving me his opportunity to speak on behalf of the workers of TAZARA. If the Government is listening, it should sort out this problem amicably.

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to give some reflections on this matter. I would like to thank the mover and the seconder for this important Motion.

 

Mr Speaker, there are two issues here which are very clear. How do you judge competence? Competence can be judged, for example, by looking at two countries which sign an agreement and one country is able to look after its own while the other one is unable to do that.

 

Mr Speaker, secondly, there is what is called best practice. This is where people learn from those who are successful. They learn how the successful ones do things.  Formulations are universally acceptable. It is known that in social security, the word solidarity means a lot in the context that in a pension scheme, the people who join a pension scheme today are the ones who pay those who are leaving. So, in this particular matter, employees of the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) were contributing to a pension scheme, but at the point when they left, the same Government or the people who were looking after them or their money were unable to pay them. Then, you ask: “Where has the money gone?” 

 

Mr Speaker, you see, when people raise concerns about the incompetence of this Government, such as the lack of planning and the lack of setting priorities, these are the issues that people look at. Those 2,000 workers at TAZARA have not been paid for ten years under a Government which prides itself in being a high performer. What is that all about?

 

Mr Speaker, this is why people say that people cannot eat roads. The Government can say that it has put up so many roads, but what are they for if its people are dying without getting their money and their children are failing to go to school? Can the Government justify itself on being good or that it is serving people? What humanity is this Government serving if it cannot pay people who have worked for their money?

 

Mr Speaker, it is the same principle that we should always look after the vulnerable. We should not ignore people who have no voice. There is no other way one can justify this because these people are not looking for handouts, which we see. These people are looking forward to their rights being upheld and their money, which they contributed, being paid, but this Government is failing to pay. Can this Government say that it has priorities when it is ignoring the voters? What is the meaning of that? This why we say that this idea of taking your citizens for granted like this is unacceptable because there is no other matter as important as this.

 

Mr Speaker, for example, the Governments wants to set up a national airline, but is failing to pay its people who have been at the door for the last ten years or so. Then, because it is politically expedient, other people who had a misfortune only three weeks ago, are being paid through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), yet it is the same country and the same citizens.

 

Sir, these are the difficulties which are mindboggling. One cannot really understand how the Government expects those people to survive. They have not been given land or any other social network system to cushion them. Maybe, because they are not making noise, the Government has just shoved them aside.

 

Mr Speaker, one wonders what the people who are supposed to be resolving these problems do every day. Why can they not prioritise this issue? Is there anything today which is more important than this? When you look at that, you also look at other employees who are supposed to be looked after or paid by the same Government through the same pension schemes such as the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) and the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF). The only pension scheme which appears to be working is the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). When the same Government is told to reform pension schemes which are not performing, what do we get? It is stories and issues, but no solutions.

 

Mr Speaker, I remember Hon. Muchima discussed this issue two years ago, but nothing has happened. What then is the meaning of that because it is not too long from now that all of us will be going and a new Government will come in and find the same problem. Even this same Government may come back. If it comes back in August, what is it going to tell the retirees of TAZARA if it has even failed to pay them now when there is a bigger issue in terms of trying to make citizens settle properly? What is it going to tell them? These are the issues.

 

Mr Speaker, therefore, we sincerely urge the Government to see if it can assist these people.

 

I thank you for the opportunity, Sir.

 

Thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: I have recognised the hon. Minister for the Northern Province, but before I come back to him, I will allow for more debate from the Backbench.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, having a title like this one where the Government is really supposed to intervene for workers who worked very well for the Government makes very sad reading. It is very important that workers of the country are treated very well, especially when they retire and have done their work very successfully. This is where the difference comes in.

 

Mr Speaker, now, we have a Government that has different priorities such as wastage of money, at large, which could be paid to these retirees. Any Government that really cares about its people will take care of retirees because they are tired and have done a very good job for the country. Now, the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) story is very sad because these people have not been paid for so many years, yet we have a Government that says it is pro-poor and the people’s Government, but it fails to do simple things like pay people their retirement benefits.

 

Mr Speaker, we have a Government that has been buying police vehicles in huge numbers and arresting people who are innocent and keeping them for thirty days without charging them and spending money by driving them to Lusaka and all over. So, this Government has a lot of money. If it did not have money, it would plan better and in a prudent way. There is no reason the Patriotic Front (PF) Government can fail to pay the TAZARA retirees.  It simply does not care. This is what the Government should do if it wishes to come back into power. It should do what it was elected for and not just go about arresting and intimidating people thinking that it is the best way of getting back to power. That cannot work with human beings.

 

Mr Speaker, we are now telling the PF Government that it must know for what it was put into power. It was put in power to serve the people of Zambia. The money that it is flashing around is not its money. It is the people of Zambia who pay tax and the Government is just given the mandate to ensure that the money is used properly.

 

Mr Speaker, we have so much wastage in the country. With all these things that happen, the Government does not simply care. We should not have so many employees or people who were employed by the Government or other parastatal organisations failing to get their benefits. Then, what are you in the Government for? Is the Government sure, honestly, that these people who amount in big numbers with their relatives and clans will surely vote for the PF after the way it has treated them like destitute? These people worked for their money. This is why we always question the Government’s usage of money. It must use the money prudently.

 

Mr Speaker, there are deals, projects that do not mean well even at the National Pension Schemes Authority (NAPSA) that is being talked about. The Government disturbs this pension money and uses it for other things that do not matter, yet it has many people languishing under its watch. Why, then, does the Government make pension compulsory if it is failing to pay the people? People must have a choice. The Government should stop making pension schemes compulsory so that people can find a way of how they are going to take care of themselves.

 

Mr Speaker, when you have an irresponsible Government like this, which does not want to pay its workers who worked so well, you cannot be proud of it. What does it expect from the people? Surely, the PF Government has been let free on many aspects. When it comes to things to do with politics, its survival and taking care of whatever, it will flash all the money that it needs. This is a Government that is flashing money in the markets. Where is it getting this money? This is a Government that will give out vehicles such Land Cruisers for free to those people who support it. So, the money is there and the Government should pay these workers without fail.

 

Mr Speaker, it is high time we took this Government to task because this money does not belong to it. This is money that comes from the Zambian people and the Government has an obligation to pay retirees who worked for this country. What is going on now should not be happening. The Government just says that it will pay whenever money is available.

 

Sir, it seems those in the Government are just there on holiday. We have a Government that is on holiday throughout and is not serving the Zambian people. When it loses, it looks at others. It is not good. We are Zambians and we must learn to respect the elderly. Those who have worked should get their dues accordingly.

 

Sir, it really makes very sad reading and makes me feel embarrassed to be a Zambian who has a Government that fails to pay workers who have done a good job.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important Motion ably moved by the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi and seconded by the hon. Member for Mwembezhi.

 

Sir, indeed, a good Government is seen by the way it looks after those who serve the nation diligently. The situation of the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) retirees is not different from the situation regarding those who worked under the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL). Since the 1990s when these people were retired or went on voluntary separation, they have not been paid any coin.

 

Mr Speaker, one wonders how the Government expects these people to survive and how they are supposed to send their children to school. To date, most of the children of these retirees are uneducated on account of their parents not being able to manage to pay university fees, yet they performed very well. These children were also denied Government bursaries when the Government knew that their parents were not paid their dues.

 

Sir, a pension benefit includes a pension, compensation, gratuity or similar allowances in respect of a person’s service. As such, these people are not beggars. They are only demanding what is due to them. We have so many examples of retirees going to court and even succeeding in their cases, but they have not been paid. All they get is ‘as and when money will be made available’. When will this money be made available? Members of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government are busy flashing money on the streets and giving handouts in order for people to vote for them. However, I am sure that the Zambian people have opened their eyes and will not be bought by this dirty money that is being flown around.

 

Mr Speaker, the issue of –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Livingstone, the expression ‘dirty money’ is unparliamentary.

 

Mr Jere: Mr Speaker, I withdraw that term and replace it with ‘improper money’.

 

Sir, I was about to talk about newspapers and say that time and again, we see headlines of hon. Ministers having released so much money. We have a lot of – (inaudible) – probably Government hon. Minister stating that monies were released from the Ministry of Finance, yet these people have not been paid. Where does the money go? Is it that during the time of elections our hon. Colleagues want to appear to be releasing money for those who have served this country to be paid? In fact, monies that the Government is supposed to pay these people are there, but it does not want to pay them.

 

Mr Speaker, it is very true that these people are destitute. They have suffered enough and it is high time that the Government took that into account. Every year when we budget, we put aside money for retirees, yet they are not paid. The saviour of these people is, indeed, coming come August 2021, who will redeem them and liberate them from the many sufferings that they have endured.

 

Sir, this is not a contentious or emotive issue. Both those on your right and left will overwhelmingly support this Motion so that retirees can be paid.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I just want to add a word to the debate on this very important Motion, which has been ably moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi. I agree with the submission he has made that the plight of the retirees of the Tanzania-Zambia Railways Authority (TAZARA) must be attended to. The TAZARA retirees have really suffered. They have been condemned to destitution and need immediate attention.

 

Sir, it is on record that the Government released money in 2020 to pay the retirees of TAZARA, but this money only catered for 9 per cent of the total required for the retirees’ arrears. How can the Government be so negligent and allow these people to suffer and wallow in abject poverty as though they never served this nation? These are citizens who have served the nation with diligence and they need to be attended to.

 

Mr Speaker, as other hon. Colleagues have indicated, we have seen hon. Government Ministers going around with stacks and stacks of money and giving it to cadres –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mumbwa, we do not debate ourselves.

 

Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance. I withdraw that reference. We have seen money being flown around and being distributed to cadres in exchange for votes. Meanwhile, the people who have worked or have spent their time serving this nation are not being attended to. This is not acceptable. We need to attend to these men and women. This does not only apply to TAZARA employees or retirees, but also cuts across many sectors across the country. There are so many retirees who, to date, have not been paid their dues by this Government. Meanwhile, this is a Government that is assuring everybody that no one shall be left behind. Retirees have been left behind. Their children cannot go to school and they cannot manage three meals a day. How have they not been left behind? They have been left behind.

 

Sir, this is the time that all retirees across the country, including those of TAZARA, should think twice about regime change. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government has really failed the workers of this country. We are aware that even the salaries of current workers at TAZARA today are still in arrears. They are in arrears of four to six months every given time. The Zambia Postal Service (ZAMPOST) workers are also having the same challenges. What are we to say about the PF Government? This Government has failed the workers of this country.

 

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

 

Thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to render support to a Motion that has been very ably moved by Hon. Kakubo, Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi. Indeed, that is the way it should be. An hon. Member of Parliament must express the frustrations and concerns of the people he/she represents. The point that Hon. Kakubo is making is very clear, the workers need to be paid for the long years that they have served the company.

 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member indicated that in certain cases, workers have not been paid for six months in arrears and those who have been retired have been waiting for their money for ten years.

 

Mr Speaker, this is at a time when the cost of living has become higher than ever seen in this country. The other day when I was going to my constituency, I went into a super market to buy some cooking oil to use in the village. I was shocked to find that a 2 litre container of cooking, which we were buying at K60 a few months ago, was now going at K240. The sugar that we used buy for K8 per kg is now more than double that price. It is going at K25 per kg. So, these are the conditions that these people are facing because they have no income.

 

Mr Speaker, let me now say that there is no Government in the history of this country that has had so much money compared to the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. Obviously, it is because of borrowing. This Government has borrowed tonnes and tonnes of money in the last ten years. Others may have complained in the past that there was no money, but this particular Government has had a lot of money borrowed from outside the country and, of course, domestically. No other Government since 1964 has had so much access to money. However, the trouble is that because of the way it has spent the money, the development process has been lopsided. I emphasise that word, lopsided. So many people, including in this House, have indicated before and wondered why the Government is just focusing on roads.

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, are you still debating the Motion?

 

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, Mr Speaker. I am always a very focused person, except that when you have a broad view, it is not a matter of one plus one, plus two, you have to make the connections. The connection is that with so much money available to the Government, it has failed to prioritise all the important areas of the economy, including paying workers at the Tanzania-Zambia railway Authority (TAZARA). Then, you ask yourself questions like: How come TAZARA is failing to pay workers when so much money was borrowed and it should have been invested into the company? Indeed, some money was put into TAZARA. So, then, how come in spite of all those investments, TAZARA is failing to pay workers today? Where did the money go? Just like the Zambia Railways, a lot of money from the Eurobond was put there. Where did the money go?

 

Mr Speaker, I want thank Hon. Kakubo, once again, for that excellent presentation.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to debate.

 

Mr Speaker, it is clear that this Motion brought on the Floor of the House is nothing but political. We are aware that the Government led by His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has put prime importance on the transport sector. He considers the transport sector as one of the key sectors for national development. This is why we are seeing many roads being linked and our railway system being given attention. Indeed, if we look at the backlog of payments of the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL) retirees, we will see that it is historical. I would like to assure the retirees not only in Kapiri, but also in Mpika and many other towns along the line of rail that President Lungu is a committed President not only to their plight, but too many others who are affected by what they are going through.

 

Mr Speaker, the Government has been releasing this money which has been pending for the past fifteen years. If you check the figures, you will note that the Patriotic Front (PF), especially under President Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has released more money to pay these retirees than any other Government in the past. That is the commitment that the President attaches to the payment of retirees. Not only that, this Government wants to ensure that the railway system business is revamped. It just passed a Statutory Instrument (SI) which stipulates the limits and amounts of cargo to be transported through the railways system. That is one of the measures that the President has put in place to ensure that the ZRL becomes self-sufficient. It should be able to generate resources, not only to pay retirees, but also to pay those still working for the company. So, on behalf of the people of Muchinga, Chama South and, indeed, on behalf of all well-meaning Zambians, I would like to urge the ZRL retirees to trust President Edgar Chagwa Lungu. Their arrears will be paid. It might not be ZRL only that owes employees, we hear council employees in many districts who at times go –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chama South, focus on the Motion.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, thank you for the guidance, but the point I was trying to drive home is to urge the ZRL retirees not to fall prey to such political Motions, which are only meant to show that –

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chama South!

 

You are mixing up Zambia Railways Limited and TAZARA.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, thank you.

 

Mr Speaker, I want to assure ZRL employees that the PF –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chama South, are you aware of the Motion that we are debating?

 

Mr Mung’andu: Yes, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: Please, focus on that Motion

 

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I want to urge our colleagues who have been affected by the delays in the payment of their terminal benefits or retirees that the PF Government is the only Government which has their interest at heart. Let them trust President Edgar Chagwa Lungu. This problem will soon be a thing of the past. The President has demonstrated his ability to take care of everyone without leaving anyone behind. Therefore, I am confident that even these retirees will not be left behind.

 

Mr Speaker, I do not agree with this Motion on the Floor of the House.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I also have a long list on the Zoom Platform, which I have not yet begun attending to. I think I should do that now. I want to see how far I will go with this list as well.

 

Mr Speaker gave the Floor to the hon. Member for Serenje.

 

Mr Kabanda was inaudible.

 

Mr Speaker gave the Floor to the hon. Member for Kafue.

 

I am told she is not available.

 

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to speak on behalf of the retirees of Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) because this issue has been long overdue. I think to insinuate that the Motion is highly political is unfortunate. Every Zambian who works looks forward to a time of retiring and being paid their retirement benefits.

 

Mr Speaker, as one of my hon. Colleagues already referred to, some of us have been privileged to sit in your Committee on Parastatal Bodies, which is very much aware of what is happening at TAZARA. To see that at a time when TAZARA was making profits and doing well, the very people who contributed to this country, not just to Kapiri Mposhi or to the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi, but to the entire country of Zambia are being neglected is uncalled for and unZambian.

 

Mr Speaker, that is why we are urging the Executive to really look into the plight of the people of TAZARA. There is no way the Government can only release K7 million out of about K220 million, which is supposed to be given to about 2000 employees who earned their money. While you want to pride yourselves as a listening Government, remember that these are your relatives and they are Zambians. Whenever we are put in positions of power, we do not own this country or the people of Zambia. We simply become stewards of the resources of this nation. So, what is happening is uncalled for.

 

Mr Speaker, how do members of the Executive, especially the line ministries responsible in paying retirees, sleep at night knowing too well that these people have not been paid? How do you sleep when some of these retirees have even died? How do you sleep when some of their children, who should have contributed to this nation, cannot go to university and now they will end up on the streets because you did not do what is right? I think it is important for members of the Executive, especially those in charge, the hon. Minister of Finance, and I think the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication, to search their hearts and souls over this matter.

 

Mr Speaker, today, we are talking of TAZARA struggling because, as a country, we have not prioritised the plight of our employees. How many of us would work and know very well that when my time to retire or harvest comes, I will not harvest? How many of us can do that? Some of us are from rural constituencies. Keembe Constituency is a farming area. How many of us would go to their fields to farm not for one or two years but for twenty or thirty years knowing too well that you will never get anything out of your produce. That will be a total description of insanity. This is insane because you cannot expect people who have contributed to this nation –

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Keembe!

 

Ms Kasune: Yes, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: Please, withdraw your reference to insanity. As far as I know, in this context, there is nobody insane dealing with this issue.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: At least, in this august House, there is nobody insane.

 

Ms Kasune: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word insane. I was referring not to a person but to a situation. However, I take your counsel. The situation is really saddening. My hon. Colleagues have referred to the fact that the living conditions in Zambia have sky rocketed even for us who are able to work or the able bodied. Now, imagine the workers who have retired or have been declared redundant, but have not been paid. A Government is a father of the nation. So, which father or mother will abandon his/her children? These are not beggars. They are people who earned their money but five years later, their emoluments or separation packages have not been given. This is wrong, uncalled for and inhumane. I think this calls for every hon. Member, who is in his/her right mind, who has been chosen to represent the people of Zambia –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Keembe, I think you need to check your temperament. There is no need to be emotional.

 

Ms Kasune: Mr Speaker, –

 

Mr Speaker: Just wait, I am still speaking.

 

You are suggesting that there could be somebody not in the right frame of mind here. There is no need to be emotional. The hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi was very composed, yet he is directly interacting with the affected persons but still approached this issue with a very temperate mode.

 

Continue with your debate.

 

Ms Kasune: Mr Speaker, I heed your counsel. I think, as a mother and a wife, …

 

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

 

Ms Kasune: … this is really disturbing, hence the emotions. If I can be this emotional now, imagine what the people are dealing with. It may be easy for us because we are comfortable. I am comfortable, but what about these retirees? That is where the emotions are coming from.

 

Mr Speaker, I am thinking of that woman who has been waiting for these resources and nothing has come through.

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, as a Member of Parliament for a rural constituency, I want to say that in Kanchibiya, we have a number of Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) ex-employees who used to work at Mpika and other stations. Today, they are farming or residing in Kanchibiya. I speak for them and, indeed, I would like to add a word to this debate.

 

Sir, I have looked at the Motion which my colleague, the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi has brought to the House. He is urging the Government to intervene in the payment of terminal benefits. I have considered the term and the plight of our people. I have also followed the Government’s action right from the Head of State, who has taken it upon himself to even meet with his colleague from Tanzania, who unfortunately is now late, to discuss among other issues, the plight of the people, the retirees of TAZARA in Kanchibiya.

 

Mr Speaker, I have taken time to discuss with the management of TAZARA on what is obtaining because we are concerned. Unlike our hon. Colleagues in the United Party for National Development (UPND) who would want to use the plight of TAZARA retirees as a vehicle to get into power, we, in the Patriotic Front (PF), are concerned about the retirees because we are a pro-poor party. We are concerned.

 

Mr Speaker, we would like to urge our colleagues to not be emotive over this issue, as they were earlier advised. They should be real and discuss with the Government on what is happening, as I would like to discuss with the Government.

 

Mr Speaker, I am not in support of this Motion because it is urging the Government to intervene when it has already been intervening. If a door is closed, you can say let us open it. However, this door is open. You rightly heard, in some aspects, from the former hon. Minister of Finance and hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa, who mentioned that the Government has invested in the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) and in the railway industry. I think he has a historical understanding of what is happening because he was the hon. Minister of Finance when some of these challenges were obtaining at TAZARA.

 

Mr Speaker, the PF Government has invested in TAZARA. As was also said, it has made payments because this challenge originated from the fact that TAZARA was not remitting contributions to the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) and the Zambia State Insurance Cooperation (ZSIC), which are the pension houses from where TAZARA employees should have been getting their terminal benefits.

 

Mr Speaker, our colleagues in the UPND need to understand very clearly, visibly and audibly that TAZARA did not remit contributions to ZSIC and NAPSA. Therefore, the two companies have not been able to honour holistically the rights of the former employees because the employing company was not remitting. The PF Government, being a responsible Government and understanding the plight of the people who are suffering, intervened and called on management to find out the problem. It realised that the problem was that the TAZARA management did not remit contributions because of the challenges that it was facing. The Government took it upon itself to pay ZSIC and NAPSA. Last year, it paid K7 million to each one, if that information, as given to me, is correct.

 

Mr Speaker, that money was paid and some of the employees have got their money. However, I urge the Executive to continue so that all the retirees get there terminal benefits. I am not in support of this Motion because the door is already open. This Motion –

 

Mr Speaker: order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

The Minister for Northern Province (Mr Bwalya): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate. The Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) is a jointly owned company between Zambia and Tanzania. I have former workers of TAZARA in Kasama in the Northern Province who are also retirees.

 

Mr Speaker, yes, we sympathise. Yes, we know, historically, that we inherited this issue. In spite of the twenty-seven years that the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) was in power, it left this particular aspect to us. Within the period of nine years of our Government, we have tried as much as possible to look at the plight of the retirees of TAZARA. As Minister for the Northern Province, I have had representation from the former workers of TAZARA. Indeed, we know that we owe them.

 

Mr Speaker, in the submission of the mover of the Motion, he acknowledges the fact that this Government has been releasing money, though not in the quantum that they may want us to release it. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mumbwa also acknowledged the fact that almost 9 per cent of the money owed to the retirees has been released. That is called intervention.

 

Sir, the manner in which the Motion is couched is worrying and that is the more reason I think that most of us are not agreeing with it. The interventions have been made and they will continue to be made.

 

Mr Speaker, we accept that, perhaps, we need to accelerate the intervention. We need to move and continue, as the resource envelope allows us to do so. Workers who were employees of TAZARA in the Northern Province can be assured that we are on top of the matter.

 

Mr Speaker, talking about intervention, which is already going on, I was with His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, in Tunduma, in Tanzania, when Zambia and Tanzania were commissioning the one-stop boarder point. At that particular moment, and that is how serious the President is in terms of the plight that the TAZARA workers are facing, even in that short period of time, he, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, had time to talk to the then President of Tanzania, the late Mr Magufuli, may his soul rest in peace. Right there, the two Presidents instructed the two ministers, the Minister of Transport and Communication in Zambia and the minister in charge of transport in Tanzania to try and have a meeting to ensure that we resolve this particular issue. That is called intervention.

 

Mr Speaker, as a country, we are faced with quite a number of issues. Yes, they may say people cannot eat roads, but even then, we have prioritised issues of human resource in this country and the Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto, which was launched today, speaks to the fact that we are pro-poor, as does the manifesto which is expiring this year.

 

Mr Speaker, to demonstrate that we are pro-poor, we have started releasing these monies. I think the hon. Minister of Finance will speak on that. While we are releasing the monies for the retirees in TAZARA, we are also ensuring that the Social Cash Transfer is extended to a number of those who are in poverty brackets.

 

Mr Speaker, as Minister for the Northern Province, I have the issue of TAZARA retirees in the Northern Province. Yes, it is true that we need to pay them, but intervention is being made. If we are talking of us trying to make sure that we continue to slowly accelerate as the money is made available, we are ready to do that, as a Government. However, most important is that as regards the plight and, indeed, the issues that the people who worked for TAZARA are going through, we are on top of things and can only assure them that we are going to walk the route with them and ensure that we make their living better by sourcing funds to pay them.

 

Mr Speaker, that couching of the Motion is what is wrong and I think that it is not a Motion that should be supported.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this academic Motion brought by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi.

 

Mr Speaker, I am very close to the people of the Tanzania Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA), having once represented them in court. I can confirm that the problem the people of TAZARA have is not the Patriotic Front (PF) Government but, I think, they regret having voted for an opposition hon. Member of Parliament who wants to fight the Government and not for their rights.

 

Mr Speaker, the Motion would have been supported had it not included Mr Hakainde Hichilema in it and had it not added things –

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Deputy Chief Whip, advise me. In what terms has Mr Hakainde been included in the Motion?

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, by saying the Government of Mr Hakainde Hichilema that is coming in August is coming to take care of the retirees, he has actually spoiled the whole Motion. As far as we are concerned, the hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa was the Minister of Finance when the debt due to the retirees was growing and his Government did nothing about it. So, for the hon. Member for Liuwa to wake up today and portray a picture that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is responsible for some of the money owed to retirees for twenty years would be misapplying the facts.

 

Mr Speaker, the PF has only been in the Government from 2011. There are retirees who retired as far back as 1994 and to date, they have not been paid. They cannot accuse the PF Government. As far as we are concerned, this Motion is a ploy to play politics on the people of Kapiri Mposhi and TAZARA employees.

 

Sir, as far as I am concerned, if you are urging the Government, you urge it without attacking it. So far, the mover of Motion and the seconder have already attacked the Government when it has been paying. I remember we supported this Motion when it first came on the Floor of the House and we actually said that the Government had already started moving towards liquidating the retirees’ pensions.

 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that it is not just the pensioners that are not being paid. Even the current workers are not being paid their salaries because the money that was due to them was never given to them at the time it was supposed to be given. So, we would like to urge the people of Kapiri Mposhi not to make a mistake of going along with an Opposition hon. Member again who will be running away from an hon. Minister.

 

Sir, I remember very well that when this issue started, the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication was looking for the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi, but the hon. Member was saying no, he wants to give me money for the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019. He was running away from the hon. Minister thinking that it was about Bill No. 10 of 2019. So, why did he not talk to the hon. Minister when he really wanted to talk to him? Today, he wakes up and says the hon. Minister has not –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Deputy Chief Whip, this is not the occasion to debate ourselves, individually or at personal level.

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, I agree with you. Let me proceed with my debate by adding one point. Although the people of Kapiri Mposhi, Mkushi and Serenje are complaining through the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi, assuming they are complaining through him, I think the PF Government has released enough money to start bringing the figures down. The issue of saying that K200 million caters for a period of thirty years is not correct.

 

Mr Speaker, for those who do not understand, TAZARA is a private company. The Shareholders are the Zambian Government and the Tanzanian Government. TAZARA is not part of the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ). The Zambian Government is not in arrears in any of its ministries, departments or parastatals. The problems at TAZARA are historical and the PF Government, working hand in hand with all the stakeholders, has demonstrated that it is capable of resolving issues not just in Kapiri Mposhi, but also in Mpika, Serenje, Nakonde and everywhere else.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me to state that we, on your right, are not supporting this Motion. We are not supporting this academic Motion because it is meant to just spill blood where there is no blood or to squeeze a stone for blood to come out of it. The Government is already paying retirees. So, why are we trying to come up with academic Motions?

 

Sir, we urge all our hon. Members on the right not to support this Motion. We are going vote against this Motion.

 

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, allow me to send you greetings from Kafulamase in Kabwe Central where I am, as I debate virtually. Due to your good leadership, you have brought us this kind of platform that is helping us do our job.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely.

 

Thank you, Sir.

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, thank you so much for allowing me to add my voice to the debate on this Motion moved by Hon. Kakubo.

 

Mr Speaker, the challenge we have with this particular Motion is simply the way it has been crafted. The mover of the Motion was contradicting himself. Accepting the Motion in its current format entails that the Government has not done anything at all in trying to help our people, the former employees of the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA). He is urging the Government to intervene, but at the same time is referring to some figures of monies such as the K7 million which was released to pay about 200 plus retirees, which is about 10 per cent. I do not know what he would call that if not intervention.

 

Mr Speaker, TAZARA is a venture between two countries, the Republic of Zambia and the United Republic of Tanzania. It is supposed to be a business venture, a parastatal that is supposed to generate money to run itself and look after its people.

 

Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament, who sits here where money is appropriated for Government expenditure, did not bring this matter at the time the Budget was being passed, is he suggesting that now the Government should take the responsibility of all parastatals and bring them on its payroll and pension schemes? TAZARA, like any other parastatal, has its own obligations.

 

Mr Speaker, let us be conscious, as hon. Members of Parliament, when crafting Motions. What message is the hon. Member sending? He cannot come up with a Motion and ask the Government to intervene. It is like going to a parent who is already feeding his children and asking him/her to buy bread. How does that work?

 

Mr Speaker, this is a very responsible Government which, even when it could have allowed TAZARA after discussing – my colleagues referred to meetings that the President had with his counterpart in Tanzania. This is a joint venture. So, TAZARA’s challenges which the Government, against all odds, has attempted to deal with because it cares for its people, must not be underplayed by politicking. I know this season is now interesting. This is when we want to show people that we care for them, but we must do that reasonably.

 

Dr Musokotwane walked out of the Assembly Chamber.

                                    

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am shocked my brother is stepping out. Here, we hold each other accountable. We, on this side, should hold our colleagues on the other side accountable just as they also do us. The former hon. Minister of Finance, who also debated this Motion, as a caring leader, should have started by highlighting the role he played himself when this problem started.

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, you can refer to the Government he served.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Sorry, Sir, the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) Government.

 

Mr Speaker: Yes. To debate him as an individual will not be in keeping with our rules.

 

Continue.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I hear you. However, let it be on record that if the previous Government had started doing something about this matter, probably, today, we could have been talking about a different story. We have continued to look for resources to pay our people, even the currently serving workers at TAZARA. They were having agitations, but today, the Government is responding to them. That is how caring this Government is. So, to try and urge the Government to intervene when it is already intervening is unacceptable. It is politicking. We are not going to allow our colleague to become relevant to the people at TAZARA today using this Motion. It will not happen. Why? It is because we are already doing what he is trying to ask us to do. However, what we will not do is to give him political mileage out of this Motion.

 

Mr Speaker, we are saying no to this Motion, but shall continue to look after our people of TAZARA, from Nakonde up to Kapiri Mposhi. Just as they are being paid, we shall make sure that the retirees get paid too, and not because of this Motion.

 

Sir, let it be clear to our dear colleague that we are not going to make him relevant to the people of TAZARA, current and former workers, because the Government is already intervening and he cannot ask us to do what we are doing.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, we have had extensive debate on this. I am now winding it down as follows: I will allow the hon. Minister of Works and Supply and the hon. Minister of Finance and that will be the end.

 

The Minister of Works and Supply (Ms Chalikosa): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to also add my contribution to the debate on the Motion on the Floor, which is requesting the Government to intervene in the issue of the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) retirees. I equally do not support this Motion because the Government is already doing its job. While I do sympathise with the workers of TAZARA, as people who have worked and truly deserve to get their retirees’ benefits, the Government of the Republic of Zambia, under the leadership of Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has made a pledge to pay all retirees and retrenchees.

 

Mr Speaker, you may be interested to know that this morning, His Excellency the President launched the Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto, in which the motto is, “Making every Zambian Count.” I would urge everybody to get a copy from the PF website. On page 67 of this manifesto, it clearly states that going forward, the PF Government shall implement the following and one of the things on social security and senior citizens’ welfare is to complete paying all retirees and retrenchees.

 

Mr Speaker, secondly, not only are we talking about paying all retirees and retrenchees, the Statutory Instrument (SI) that was passed by the Ministry of Transport and Communication to move 30 per cent cargo from roads to railway transportation is assisting TAZARA management to get some form of recapitalisation, which is going to enable the company to purchase wagons and refurbish their locomotives. This is adding to the operations of TAZARA. It is the hope of the PF Government that TAZARA will be back on its feet and be able to pay the three months arrears which have been reduced from five months to three months.

 

So, Mr Speaker, to say that Hon. Kakubo, the mover of this Motion, is the saviour of the retirees of TAZARA when he is merely performing his expected task –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Minister of Works and Supply, there is no need for that insinuation.

 

Ms Chalikosa interjected.

 

Mr Speaker: Let me finish. He is a representative of a constituency, and this is a representative democracy. I do not think he has presented himself as a saviour. I think he is urging the Government to merely respond to this situation and let us debate issues in that fashion, representative democracy.

 

You may continue, hon. Minister.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. Indeed, as he represents the retirees of TAZARA, who reside in his constituency, I would like to appeal to our retirees to believe in the PF Government because not only are we looking after them by trying to service this commitment, but also offering empowerment programmes to assist those who have become vulnerable through no fault of their own.

 

So, I would urge hon. Members of Parliament who are serving the people who worked for TAZARA along the 841 km line of rail to encourage our people to get involved in the empowerment programmes which are real. This will help alleviate the problem as we look to paying off the retirees their benefits.

 

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I would like to thank you for allowing me to contribute.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

The Minister of Finance (Dr Ng’andu): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor raised by Hon. Kakubo, hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi, that this House urges the Government to intervene in the payment of terminal benefits to the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) employees.

 

Sir, the Motion comes as a matter of surprise to me because the Government, through the Ministry of Finance, has periodically contributed to the capitalisation needs of TAZARA in compliance with its obligations under our bilateral agreements with the Republic of Tanzania. I want to put it on record that from 2013 to date, the Zambian Government has funded TAZARA to the extent of US$44.1 million, which is equivalent to K992.2 million. This is almost K1 billion if we use the current exchange rate. This has been used towards the capitalisation of TAZARA to meet salary obligations and retirement packages.

 

Mr Speaker, the impression that is being created that the Government is doing nothing is without foundation. The acting hon. Minister of Transport and Communication, whom I hope will speak after me, will present a breakdown of what has been specifically released to retirees on a year-by-year basis and what is left for the Government to be able to extinguish the entire arrears that exist at the moment. I think this will amply demonstrate the Government’s commitment to the employees of TAZARA, even in the face of the fiscal constraints which we now face.

 

Sir, this Government will continue to make budgetary allocations and funding as is needed. However, the Government’s overall objective is that TAZARA should be adequately recapitalised so that it operates as a profitable self-sustaining business and which does not need the Treasury as recourse to meet its financial obligations. We should also be able to make our pension system effective so that employees of companies like TAZARA, Zambia Railways Limited and so on and so forth do not need to rely on the Government wage bill to deal with the challenges that these companies might have.

 

Mr Speaker, I know that hon. Members of this House who may have had the opportunity of standing where I stand right now know that it is very difficult to bring all employees of all companies in which the Government has a shareholding and which have failed on the Government’s payroll.

 

Sir, I am mindful of the fact that sometimes there are delays in releasing funds to these companies. These delays, however, are occasioned by fiscal constraints, which we are all aware of. That notwithstanding, the Government endeavours to respond to the financial needs of the company as well as it is able to. Therefore, it is puzzling that the hon. Member is asking this House to urge the Government to do what the Government is already doing.

 

Mr Speaker, I do not like to attribute less than noble motives for why hon. Members of this House may move Motions on the Floor. However, the information that will be presented by the acting hon. Minister of Transport and Communication, which we brought before this House, will show that the Government is serious about extinguishing this existing obligation.

 

Mr Speaker, I know that with election fever catching most of us in this House, the temptation is to try to present ourselves as dealing with the problems which supposedly is not dealing with, yet in effect, the reality of the matter is that the Government is meeting these obligations as quickly and as ably as it can. The arrears we are dealing with are huge and cut cross many companies. So, at any point in time, the Treasury is not only focusing on dealing with one particular company or arrears relating to one particular company, but arrears relating to so many other companies.

 

Sir, what we have been doing over the number of years is to try as much as we can, to reduce those arrears. I think, to a large extent, we are succeeding in this. We are slowing eating into these arrears. However, as I said earlier on, we want these companies to be what they are, business entities. We need companies which do not have to recourse to the Government payroll because it is not sustainable and practical that the Government can meet the payroll needs or financing needs of all the companies within which it has shares.

 

Mr Speaker, I hope that a more appropriate cause can be identified that will help to boost the election fortunes of hon. Members of this House, but I am afraid this is not one of them. I submit that the Motion that has been brought before this House is misplaced and for that reason, I cannot support this Motion.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Kakubo: Mr Speaker, let me thank my hon. Colleagues both on your left and right for contributing to debate on this Motion. However, I would like to note a few things.

 

Mr Speaker, this Motion has unearthed the depth to which this country is being mismanaged. That has come out very clearly. I think the Government’s posture–

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi, I think, you have here long enough to know what is expected of a person who is winding up a Motion. Just in case we are not on the same page in the hymnbook, winding up does not amount to a reply. It is not a reply; I think I am on record as having said that. Maybe, I need to restate what I have said before; it is not a reply. It is just to thank those who have debated and acknowledging them. Traditionally, we do not even address substantive points.

 

You may continue.

 

Mr Kakubo: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance, though there was no reply intended, except to stress that our people have been able to see how badly managed our country is. Our people have been able to see that those who are in charge of managing our country have not placed their livelihood as a priority.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

 

Question that this House urges the Government to intervene in the payment of terminal benefits to TAZARA retirees put and the House voted.

 

Division list here

 

Aye – (39)

 

Noes – (65)

 

Abstention – (1)

 

Question that this House urges the Government to intervene in the payment of terminal benefits to TAZARA retirees put and negatived.

 

_______

 

BILLS

 

SECOND READING

 

THE URBAN AND REGIONAL PLANNERS (Amendment) BILL, 2021

 

The Minister of Local Government (Dr Banda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Local Government has, as part of its mandate, the responsibility to ensure sustainable and well planned human settlements. Pursuant to this, my ministry has under its charge the Zambia Institute of Planners (ZIP) under the provisions of the Urban and Regional Planners Act No. 4 of 2011. Through this Act, ZIP registers planners and planning firms and regulates their professional conduct.

 

Mr Speaker, the Act also enables the institute to enforce a strict code of ethics and conduct. My ministry recognises the importance of well qualified and competent planners who have the necessary expertise and professional capability to transform human settlements and contribute to the socio-economic development of the country.

 

Sir, my ministry also recognises the importance of harmonised regulation of qualifications of all professionals, including planners.

 

Mr Speaker, this forms part of the efforts to facilitate an enabling environment and a strong foundation for effective governance principles such as transparency, accountability and good professional conduct.

 

Mr Speaker, the Government has undertaken to amend the Urban and Regional Planners Act in order to align it with the Higher Education Act No. 4 of 2013 and the Zambia Qualifications Authority Act No. 13 of 2011. The alignment is necessitated by the need to streamline regulation and accreditation of professional qualifications for enhanced service delivery.

 

Mr Speaker, the proposed amendments provide for the planners’ institute to only register and regulate individuals and institutions holding qualifications recommended by the institute and accredited and recognised by the Zambia Qualifications Authority (ZAQA). This will ensure harmonised regulation of the qualifications of all practicing planners and planning firms.

 

Sir, further, the Act is amended to align with the provisions of the Higher Education Authority Act which provides for the authority’s mandate to accredit all local and foreign qualifications.

 

Mr Speaker, a robust and enabling legal framework is necessary for ensuring competence and professionalism in our technocrats. My ministry is, therefore, optimistic that the amendment to the Urban and Regional Planners Act will enhance the operations of both ZIP and the Higher Education Authority (HEA) as they work to enhance the standards of registration and accreditation of institutions.

 

Mr Speaker, my ministry strongly advocates for a legislative and regulatory framework that will foster effective institutional arrangements and management strategies for enhanced service delivery.

 

Sir, I, therefore, wish to implore this august House to support the general proposal to amend the Urban and Regional Planners Act No. 4 of 2011 in order to ensure harmonised regulation of higher institutions of learning and professional qualifications.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Mr Speaker, your Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs was tasked to scrutinise the Urban and Regional Planners (Amendment) Bill, No. 23 of 2021 for the Fifth Session of the Twelfth National Assembly referred to it by the House on Tuesday, 9th March, 2021.

 

Mr Speaker, as the hon. Members may be aware, the proposed Bill intends to amend the Urban and Regional Planners Act, 2011 so as to revise its functions.

 

Sir, it has been noted that various institutions of higher learning have authority to accredit learning programmes for both foreign and local higher education institutions. This has resulted in the duplication of functions between the Higher Education Authority (HEA) and other institutions of higher learning.

 

Mr Speaker, therefore, a need has arisen to amend the provisions providing for training in various fields and accreditation of learning programmes and qualifications. This is intended to align the Urban and Regional Planners Act, 2011 with the proposed amendments in the Higher Education Authority Act in order to ensure that the HEA retains the sole mandate of accrediting learning programmes. In carrying out this important task, your Committee interacted with various stakeholders.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me to comment on some of your Committee’s findings regarding the proposed amendment to the Urban and Regional Planners Bill No. 23 of 2021.

 

Sir, regarding Clause 3 of the Bill, whilst supporting the inclusion of the definition of the (ZAQA) and HEA in Section 2, your Committee observes that despite the inclusion of the definition of “Higher Education Authority” in the amendment Bill, there is no reference to it in the rest of the Bill. Your Committee, therefore, proposes that Section 15(1)(c) should be amended to read:

 

“Holds a qualification from a training institution registered by the Higher Education Authority.”

 

Sir, whereas most stakeholders supported the deletion of Section 42(1) in Clause 5 of the Bill, a few held the view that the hon. Minister, on the recommendation of the institute, by Statutory Instrument (SI) should still be clothed with the power to recognise any foreign institution providing training in planning. However, those that held a contrary view supported the deletion of Section 42(1) stating that the hon. Minister of Local Government should only be left to handle policy matters whilst the HEA and ZAQA should primarily focus on the promotion of professional ethics and recognition of institutions in consultation with the appropriate authority.

 

Mr Speaker, following the proposed deletion of Section 42(1) of the principal your Committee is also of the view that Section 62(f) in the principal Act should also be included in the Bill and considered for deletion.

 

Sir, Section 60(2)(f) in the principal Act empowers the hon. Minister to make regulations for the qualifications for registration of a planner, planning firm or planning student just like Section 42(1) which is being proposed to be deleted. Since consideration of qualifications of a planner shall now be the mandate of ZAQA, your Committee urges the Executive to include this section in the proposed Bill for deletion.

 

Mr Speaker, as I end, allow me to reiterate that generally, stakeholders supported the amendments to Section 15, 29, 42 and 60 of the principal Act. Similarly, your Committee notes that the amendments are consequential following the proposed deletion of Section 15(1)(c). In this regard, your Committee fully supports the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, in addition, I wish to thank you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for your guidance and support services throughout your Committee’s deliberations on the Bill. I also wish to pay tribute to the stakeholders who interacted with your Committee during its deliberations.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Banda: Mr Speaker, allow me to thank the Chairperson of your Committee for a well articulated report on the findings from the sittings of your Committee. Let me also thank everybody for giving support to this amendment.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill was read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Wednesday, 28th April, 2021.

 

_______

 

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

THE ENGINEERING INSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA (Amendment) BILL, 2021

 

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Title agreed to.

 

THE ZAMBIA CHARTERED INSTITUTE OF LOGISTICS AND TRANSPORT (Amendment) BILL, 2021

 

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Title agreed to.

 

_______

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:

 

The Engineering Institution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2021

 

The Zambia Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport (Amendment) Bill, 2021

 

Third Readings on Thursday, 22nd April, 2021.

 

_______

 

MOTION

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

_______

 

The House adjourned at 1644 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 22nd April, 2021.

 

____________