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Debates- Friday, 26th October, 2012
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY
Friday, 26th October, 2012
The House met at 0900 hours
[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
_______
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House an idea of the business it will consider next week.
Sir, on Tuesday, 30th October, 2012, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any, after which the House will resume the policy debate on the Motion of Supply on the 2013 Budget.
Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 31st October, 2012, the Business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Then the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Supply on the 2013 Budget.
Sir, on Thursday, 1st November, 2012, the Business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the Expanded Committee on Estimates will present its report on the 2013 Budget. Then, the House will conclude the general policy debate on the Motion of Supply and resolve into Committee of Supply to begin the consideration of individual Heads of Expenditure in the Budget.
Sir, on Friday, 2nd November, 2012, the Business of the House will commence with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2013 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and the following Heads will be considered:
(a) Head 01 Office of the President – State House;
(b) Head 02 Office of the Vice-President;
(c) Head 03 The National Assembly; and
(d) Head 04 The Ministry of Gender and Child Development.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
_______
MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
THE PUBLIC ORDER ACT
The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the chance to issue a statement on the Public Order Act. I have craved this opportunity for long.
Mr Speaker, the Public Order Act, No. 113, of the Laws of Zambia regulates the holding of public meetings, processions or demonstrations and requires that every person who intends to assemble or convene a meeting, procession or demonstration gives the police, at least, seven days’ notice of that intention.
Sir, there has been an outcry from the Opposition parties that the police is oppressive in the way it administers the Act.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Member: That is the wording.
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, as a Government, our desire is to ensure that all Zambians, irrespective of their groupings, tribe, creed, inclination or colour, enjoy their fundamental rights and freedoms without any interference and that, particularly the freedom of expression, assembly and association, as guaranteed in the Constitution, particularly in Articles 20 and 21, are not violated. As stated already, a person or political party that intends to assemble, convene a public meeting, procession or demonstration should give the police a seven days’ notice of the intention to do so.
Mr Speaker, the right to hold public meetings, procession or demonstration is not absolute.
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu: I wish to emphasise that the right to hold public meetings, processions and demonstrations is not absolute.
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mr E. C. Lungu: By the very nature of these gatherings, they are potentially explosive.
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, that is why this House, in its wisdom, in the Public Order Act, under sub-section 5 of section 5 …
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister.
There has to be discipline in the House.
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: There must be discipline.
Interruptions
Hon. Member: Ulichipuba iwe!
Hon. Member: Ba Simbao, mwebakulu bonse.
Hon. Government Member: Walk out.
Interruptions
Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Kabiyeni ba Dora mwalipwa.
Mr Mwila: Akubelenga mudala.
Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, do not create disorder.
Some hon. Opposition Members left the Assembly Chamber.
Mr Mwimba H. Malama: Kabiyeni.
Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, do not create disorder. There has to be order. I will not tolerate indiscipline.
We have set the rules for ourselves and we are here as custodians of our own rules. The rules are that when a ministerial statement is being made, you are supposed to listen. If you have something to say, you will be given an opportunity.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Deputy Speaker: These are the rules we have set for ourselves. We cannot disregard them.
Hon. Minister, you may continue.
Mr E. C. Lungu: I thank you, Sir. I do not know how far back I can rewind.
Mr Deputy Speaker: No. Continue with your statement.
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the right to hold public gatherings is not absolute. By the very nature of these gatherings, they are potentially explosive.
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, let me repeat that. By the very nature of these activities, there is a possibility or potential for them to be explosive and get out of control. That is why Section 5 of the Public Order Act provides conditions that must be met before such meetings can be held.
Mr Speaker, Sub-section (5) of Section 5 of the Public Order Act provides that, and I quote:
“The notice required under Sub-section (4) of the Public Order Act shall be in the prescribed form and shall contain an undertaking by persons intending to assemble or convene a public meeting, procession or demonstration that order and peace shall be maintained through the observance of the following conditions ...”
Mr Speaker, the conditions are as follows:
(a) the police should inform the people petitioning for the occasion to gather that the site for the meeting has not already been granted to another convener. Hon. Members, this entails that the site should be free for it to be given to anyone intending to convene a gathering;
(b) the route and width of the route must be suitable, in the case of demonstrations. Again, this entails that, if the route you want to take is narrow, you cannot use it. Obviously, we will not grant you permission to use it;
(c) the party or group intending to assemble should have sufficient marshals to keep order and ensure that people co-operate with the police to maintain peace and order;
(d) the commencement, duration and destination of the event shall be communicated to the police;
(e) the public gathering must not be a risk to national security or public safety, or be a breach of the peace or cause disaffection among the inhabitants of the neighbourhood.
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu:
With regard to these conditions, judgement as to whether the event would pose a risk to security or public safety rests squarely in the hands of the police because its members are trained to do so. If they are not trained, then we should look at the syllabus again to make sure that they are trained properly;
(f) conveners have to be assured by the police that, at the time of the proposed activity, it will be possible for the police to adequately police the occasion. The police should inform the United Party for National Development (UPND), the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) …
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu:
... or the Patriotic Front (PF) that there will be adequate officers to police the occasion.
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu:
Mr Speaker, sometimes, the police might refuse to allow the event to go ahead due to a lack of adequate officers. You may wish to know that the number of personnel in the police service is 15,000. This means that the ratio of officers to citizens is 1:520, instead of the internationally accepted ratio of 1:100 or 1:250 at the worst. However, the Government is currently working hard to recruit more officers so as to raise the police population to 27,000 by 2030, in conformity with the Zambia Police Strategic Plan of 2002 to 2006. Our intention is to have 53,000 or 55,000 policemen, given the current population;
(g) where it is not possible for the police to adequately police any public event, the regulating officer of the area shall inform the conveners of the event, at least, five days before the date of the event of the inability, and propose an alternative date and time for holding such a gathering. However, in many instances when our colleagues, like Hon. Muntanga, have been told that the police cannot police the event because of the given reasons, the matter is politicised, and there are accusations and name-calling. They are assailing my reputation, instead of meeting the regulating officer so that they can agree a new date with him and discuss challenges, time and place, in a democratic manner, in their quest to hold the gathering. In particular, I am talking about Hon. Muntanga. I appeal …
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Minister, I think that, in order not to avoid inviting remarks, you should stick to your statement so that it can flow properly.
You may continue.
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I thank you. I know him from the past.
Laughter
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I appeal to all political parties or groups to engage the police, unlike the current situation in which this issue is being politicised;
(h) according to Sub-section (7) of Section 5 of the Public Order Act, when the conveners are notified that it will not be possible for the police to adequately police the proposed public event, such a gathering shall not be held;
(i) if conveners of the proposed public event are not satisfied with the reasons given by the regulating officer in the area, Sub-section (8) of Section 5 of the Act provides that they may immediately appeal to the hon. Minister, who shall decide and inform the conveners within five days;
The aggrieved party, I emphasise, may immediately appeal to the hon. Minister who shall decide and inform the conveners within five days …
Hon. Opposition Member: Question!
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr E. C. Lungu: … of the decision about the situation.
Mr Speaker, unfortunately, this Sub-section of the law is not adhered to and, instead, always ignored, jumped and trampled upon and people prefer to take such matters straight to court instead of making an appeal to the Office of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!{mospagebreak}
We are not listening. Please, can we listen.
May the hon. Minister continue, please.
Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, I, therefore, encourage political parties or, indeed, any group or stakeholder who is aggrieved by the way the Public Order Act is executed to consider making an appeal to my office so that we look at the complaint and, probably, come up with a suitable solution. It seems that most people do not know these procedures and, hence, the need to bring them on the Floor of the House.
Mr Speaker, the last point on this law is that if you are aggrieved with my decision as hon. Minister of Home Affairs to support the police or you, this law provides that you or any other group of people, with an opportunity to go to the High Court within thirty days of my decision.
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu: Let me read it the way it is written. If aggrieved with the decision of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, this law provides you with an opportunity to appeal to the High Court of Zambia within thirty days of the decision of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, in conclusion, in as much as people have the right to exercise their fundamental rights and freedoms, they should bear in mind that these rights are not absolute but relative. For example, a group or political party may intend to convene a public meeting or processional demonstration but the police have powers under the same law not to allow the meeting to take place for given reasons as I have already explained, especially, where the risk in that particular area or in the nation seems to be compromised by their desire.
Sir, such decisions may not only be good for those who belong to the PF but they are good for every Zambian citizen, including those in the Opposition.
Mr Speaker, this piece of legislation is necessary for our country because if public gatherings, processions or, indeed, demonstrations are not regulated, it may cause lawlessness which may lead to the breaking down of law and order and, in turn, repel the same investors we want to attract and, indeed, the potential investors we want to bring, including the tourists.
I, therefore, appeal to you, Sir, that all those who may get aggrieved in the implementation of the Public Order Act, should engage me, the police and other stakeholders in ensuring that there is a balance.
Mr Speaker, I, further, urge my dear colleagues to study and clearly understand the provisions of this law because many think that just giving notice to the police is enough. Many of my colleagues here think that just by going to the police station in Chawama and saying that they are giving notice is enough. It is not enough. There are conditions which must be fulfilled in order for public good to prevail.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification …
Hon. Opposition Members rose.
Mr Deputy Speaker: I am still reading. I can see the enthusiasm.
Laughter
Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.
I would like to urge the Clerk to look at the hon. Members who are standing so that they see those that are specialised in making comments while seated, and should now show themselves.
Laughter
Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, this Act that the hon. Minister has presented is totalitarian, archaic and undemocratic and not in the interest of human rights.
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
The same way I ruled when some hon. Members were making unpalatable remarks when the hon. Minister was speaking, I am saying you should stop it because those are our rules. By the same token, they are now commenting. Please, give them the opportunity to be heard. You may disagree or agree but let us not throw jabs at each other.
May the hon. Member, continue, please.
Professor Lungwangwa: No leader in his upright position can commend or abide by this Act. No wonder the Vice-President walked out of the House …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Professor Lungwangwa: … when the hon. Minister was reading the ministerial statement because he has disgusted.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Professor Lungwangwa: When is the hon. Minister bringing a Bill to the House to reform this archaic and outdated Act …
Interruptions
The Deputy Speaker: Order!
It is not only us, here, who are listening. The people outside there are also listening. So, the statements that we make have to be correct. I am sorry I have to correct this. All of us, here, when need arises, do go out of the House. The impression should not be given that His Honour the Vice-President walked out when the hon. Minister was speaking. He had to. I think that should be clear.
Please, continue.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your correction.
Sir, when is the hon. Minister bringing a Bill to reform this outdated and undemocratic Act?
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr President …
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! That was just a slip of the tongue.
Hon. Opposition Member: Akolewa!
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I have heard the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda, Professor Lungwangwa, in whose house I live now. I will not go beyond that.
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, no leader from the PF has said that we are going to amend or bring to the Floor of Parliament, an amendment to the Public Order Act. I came here to give a highlight on provisions of the Public Order Act so that my colleagues who have been in power until last year, and those in the Opposition like the UPND, get to appreciate what this law is about.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr E. C. Lungu: I did not come to bring a new Bill or discuss anything with regard to it. I just came to enlighten them so that they can appreciate what this law is.
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu: Therefore, this question is misplaced.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Mr E. C. Lungu: When am I bringing a law? I came to defend the Public Order Act, to justify its existence.
Hon. Government Member: That is the same law they used.
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, this law was in place when Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa was joining the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) to become an hon. Member of Parliament and, eventually, an hon. Minister. This law was in place when Dr. Kaunda became President. This law has been here all along. All I came to do is to justify the existence and continuation of this law.
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu: I hope hon. Members will listen to their colleagues when they are speaking whether they are in the Opposition or in the Government. All I gave was a policy statement on the Public Order Act and why the His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, said what he said and why he should be protected.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr E. C. Lungu: However, the hon. Professor, who is a lecturer, is now telling me that I should bring a Bill to amend the law. This law is good.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, before the PF got into Government, we were both against the Public Order Act and we said it would be repealed because it was a bad law. The police stopped us, and the MMD, from holding rallies twice even though we had all the requirements necessary to hold our rallies in Kanyama and elsewhere. This indicates that this particular law is bad …
Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please, get to the question.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, why where these rallies cancelled even though we met all the requirements?
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, now that we are in power we know why the MMD lost and we do not want to repeat that mistake. One important thing we should know is that the Kanyama Rally was not cancelled. The UPND was just given other options and alternatives. I know this for a fact because I interrogated the police as to why they stopped the UPND from holding a meeting in Kanyama. Their response was that they did not stop the UPND but, rather, requested for the UNPD to consider the alternative of holding the meeting at the grounds in Kamwala near the mosque.
Dr Kaingu entered the Assembly Chamber.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr E. C. Lungu: The hon. Member for Kalomo Central should know the facts on the ground. It is unfortunate that you were not involved but I know that the police gave the UPND an option to hold the meeting at Kamwala Freedom Statue area because it would make the policing of the event easier. They refused that alternative and that is unfortunate. The police did not reject their application.
I thank you, Sir.
Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, today is a very sad day for democracy.
Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.
Ms Namugala: I want to find out from the hon. Minister who is not behaving in his usual manner today …
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: … why his party, which is in Government, is now turning this country into a Police State by using the police to stop the Opposition from holding meetings in the way they used to hold meetings when they were in the Opposition. Why are they misusing the police to stop the Opposition from doing the same things that they did?
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I think I was very candid when I spoke to the House arising from a verification point by Hon. Muntanga. He was specific. He asked me why we stopped the rally in Kanyama and I explained that we did not stop that rally but rather gave them an alternative to meet elsewhere. I do not want to get engaged with my sister as to why I am acting in an unusual or exuberant manner. However, the important thing is that if the hon. Member has a specific rejection from the police, then, let her give it to me and I will explore it within the law. I do not think the MMD has ever been aggrieved by the police not giving them an opportunity to hold a meeting. All I know is that the UPND claimed to the public that they were denied an opportunity …
Hon. Opposition Member: Question!
Mr E. C. Lungu: … to hold a meeting when the police gave them an alternative which is what I explained to Hon. Muntanga. If you are going to subscribe to wisdom …
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu: Wait! I will answer that question. I am not that dull. If you are going to subscribe to …
Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
I am not giving a point of order and I am sorry to say we are becoming unruly. I have been in this House for quite a long time and what some of us are doing in unacceptable and as, Presiding Officer, I will not allow it. There will be no points of order. Can you, please, continue.
Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament, …
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu: … Hon. Namugala, has not told me of a specific incident when the police stopped the MMD from holding a specific meeting because I would have dealt with that. Earlier on, Hon. Muntanga asked me why the UPND was stopped in Kanyama and I told him that they were not stopped. They were just given an alternative which is the location in Kamwala. The UPND did not approve of that location so they went to court, but they never consulted me. Had they consulted me I would have found an opportune place where they could have met.
Sir, when questions are brought to the Floor of the House, let them be specific and factual for hon. Members to get deserved answers. This law has always been there and all we are trying to do is reform it, perfect it and move forward.
However, all I did was explain the law, as it exists, on the Floor of the House so that those of you who are lazy to read can appreciate it like hon …
Laughter
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the Government is not turning …
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr E. C. Lungu: … Zambia into a Police State. What we are doing is policing and, as policemen, we will make sure that the law is followed. Similarly, you, as legislators, should ensure that the law is changed legally. I would like to say to hon. Members that if the law is inadequate, then bring amendments so that we amend the Public Order Act.
I thank you, Sir.
Ms Imenda (Luena): I admire the serendipity of the Minister of Home Affairs in the matter of the Public Order Act.
Mr Speaker, last Friday, the hon. Opposition Members walked out of the House and, within twenty-four hours, there was a stage-managed gathering or demonstration of just a few people. When were they granted permission, considering that they should have given seven days notice?
Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, I wish to thank the hon. Member for bringing that question to the House. There are what we call spontaneous demonstrations.
Interruptions
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, when they happen, we move in our policemen very quickly. The worst part is that the media also moves in very quickly and broadcast these events. Demonstrations that are well-thought out are supposed to be within the law. If they are spontaneous, we can only police them in the best way we can. I saw that demonstration on television and I even asked the Officer-in-Charge what really happened. He explained that it was a spontaneous or sporadic gathering. We have that challenge.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, it is extremely sad for the hon. Minister to say that he has come to defend the Public Order Act in this House. As he read it, it reminded me of the colonial days.
Interruptions
Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that he has come to defend the Public Order Act and …
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Please, even if we are advising the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, let us do it in such a way that we do not disturb the proceedings of the House.
Can you continue.
Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, when is the hon. Minister going to bring the reforms on this Public Order Act? He had indicated that the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) were never refused a permit when, in the actual fact, we wanted to hold a meeting in Kitwe, but were not allowed.
Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, …
Laughter
Mr E. C. Lungu: … the hon. Member for Kasempa…
Laughter
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Why are you disallowing him from addressing me as, “Sir?”
Laughter
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasempa is very interesting. He wants to know when we will bring amendments on this Public Order Act to Parliament. I also want to know when he will give me amendments so that I can bring move them in this House. Amendments should come from you and not me. Therefore, if you have any intention of changing the law, bring the amendment to me and we will follow the right procedure. This way, we will be able to change the law. This law was last amended in 2010 by the MMD Government, after the High Court ruled on the doctors’ demonstration and Ms Christine Mulundika. I do not know why you want to fire questions to me simply because I am in this position. I am glad to be here because I will make a difference.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, where a meeting is not allowed on account of security concerns and, all of a sudden, a number of police of officers appear at the scene, what is the explanation for such a very unbecoming situation?
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, we are alert and awake twenty-four hours. When we are told that there is a problem in a given area, we deploy police officers there as quickly as possible within our limited resources.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, on 21st September, 2012, His Excellency the President gave me the mandate to guide that Executive. From the responses that are coming from the hon. Minister, it is really embarrassing.
Interruptions
Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Speaker, let us suppose we give him an amendment this week, is he going to bring it to the House next week?
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, …
Laughter
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, that lady has been in Parliament longer than I. I am lucky I have been to school, but procedures of bringing a Bill to Parliament are better by her than any other person. I cannot say that we can change the law next week. If you propose an amendment to me, the right procedure will be followed. At the right time, the law will be passed in this House.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, arising from this provocative Ministerial Statement,…
Interruptions
Mr Kakoma: … I would like to find out whether after complying with all the laws, the UPND will be allowed to hold rallies in all the constituencies in Lusaka, including Chawama Constituency, which is his constituency. I am saying so because we had notified the police that we wanted to hold a rally in Chawama according to the Public Order Act, but unfortunately, the police refused and advised us that we could only hold a rally in a less populated area such as Lusaka Central. Is this Government not infringing our Rights to Freedom of Assembly by restricting us to hold rallies only in Lusaka Central and not in any other constituency such as Chawama?
Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, be precise in your answer to avoid confusion.
Laughter
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, Hon. Kakoma and his colleagues are being very provocative. Therefore, I will be precise.
Mr Speaker, if you think that there is unconstitutionality in the Public Order Act, you can go to the Supreme Court and petition against it so that it can determine whether that law should be completely annulled. The freedom to associate, assembly and pontificate is given to you. If that is inhibited by the Public Order Act, you can go to the High Court or the Supreme Court and they will determine whether it is in conflict and, then, that law will be removed. That is your role. Why are you asking me?
I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has referred to a lack of manpower.
Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to demean the House by coming to this House in a state that shows that he is intoxicated?
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I challenge him to go with me to the clinic so that he can be tested.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muntanga: We need to check his alcohol level.
I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
According to my list here, it shows that a number of hon. Members of Parliament have asked questions on the ministerial statement and I was about to conclude it. With reference to that particular Point of Order, it is difficult for me to know because I do not have the facts…
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: … from the clinic. In light of that, I will allow one or two more hon. Members to ask and, then, we will proceed to Questions for Oral Answer.
Can you continue.
Mr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that, in some cases, there is a problem of manpower. May I find out from him the reason the issue of manpower only arises when the Opposition want to meet, and can he further guide in terms of spontaneous demonstrations. Will the Opposition equally be allowed to do what we saw the ruling party do last week?
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, I do not know the event of last week which the hon. Member is referring to. May he explain a little more with regard to that statement. However, I have understood the part of the question which says that the lack of manpower rises only when the Opposition is meeting.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, the suppression of human rights of people creates tension. May the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, distinguish between giving notice to the police and applying for a permit from the police.
Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Speaker, notice and application have been issues which have been raised by various stakeholders. Notice is the notification, and this simply means that the police will be aware of the desire to hold a meeting, and, then, reflect on their capability, and ensure that they help the people achieve their objectives. Application simply means that something has been rejected or approved. For me, there are certain basics that the police will look at, and I think, that is very clear.
I thank you, Sir.
________
HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME
Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, there have been statements from the Patriotic Front (PF) Government that all privatisations that did not afford value to the Zambians, and were irregular, will be looked into and possibly be reversed. I am sure, His Honour the Vice-President, and the hon. Members of Parliament, will recall that at the time of privatisation of the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), there was a cry that the asset was under-valued, and that, in fact, the mine was sold for a song. If I recall, it was sold for K25 million, which was even less than the works then still in progress. Does the PF Government intend to review this privatisation, and possibly reverse it?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as I recall, on the statement to this effect that is being quoted or misquoted by the hon. Member, we said we would revisit transactions tainted with corruption. I do not think that even at the time of the complex privatisation of the KCM, it would be recalled that the Anglo-American was involved and pulled out, the Commonwealth Development Commission (CDC) and so forth. I do not recall if there were any overt allegations of corruption. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) may have been accused of giving it away too cheaply, but those were the days when the price of copper was even below US$2,000. I think, the answer has to be in the negative.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, it was reported in The Post Newspaper of Friday, October 19, 2012 that the hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone, Hon. Sikwela’s life and his family’s were being threatened by the United Party for National Democracy (UPND). May His Honour the Vice-President, inform the nation and, indeed, the House, the measures that have been taken to protect the life of the hon. Member of Parliament and his family?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the police have reason to believe his life is under threat, and this comes from the protection of the police post. In this instance, I am sure this has been done. I do not think the details of what measures have been taken are particularly conducive to the maximum safety of this individual.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I have the pleasure of asking His Honour the Vice-President whether or not, in Mufumbwe, where there is a by-election, the PF Government have opened up the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) Depots to effect the sale of maize, whereas, in other areas, the selling of maize has been curtailed.
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Order!
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of any discriminatory measures being taken in Mufumbwe with regard to the sale of maize.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, it has been confirmed by the Human Rights Commission (HRC) that the seventeen detainees in Kaoma were heavily tortured by some police officers last week. May I find out from His Honour the Vice-President, what the Government is doing to protect the seventeen detainees so that their rights are observed?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the HRC is part of the machinery of the State, and its job is to precisely look into allegations of issues such as torture. In so far as I am aware, from having read The Daily Nation Newspaper, these are reports that have been brought to the attention of the HRC, and are not the findings of the HRC. Therefore, I, really, cannot comment on a matter that is under investigations, and which I am certain is under the HRC.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the PF Government seems to have collected its people from the archives.
Laughter
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Ask your question, please.
Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, when the PF was in the Opposition, it agitated for printing of ballot papers in Zambia, and when the PF Government was formed, it clearly stated that it would never print ballot papers outside Zambia. May I find out, the reason the Mufumbwe By-election ballot papers are being printed in the United Kingdom (UK), and not even in South Africa (RSA)?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the security arrangements and the infrastructure that is required at the Government Printers are not yet in place.
I thank you, Sir.
Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, may I get His Honour the Vice-President’s comment on the performance of the Zambian economy with regard to the World Bank rankings where Zambia has, now moved from the 84th position to the 94th position.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think it is unfortunate, and there is a need to pay attention. These things are not biblical precepts handed down from Heaven. They can be influenced by all sorts of frivolous factors. However, as a Government, we are seriously taking anything which looks as a downgrading, as we did, in fact, with the Fitch Rankings’ downgrading of our long-term prospects. We will certainly look into it, and the matter will be discussed with the appropriate committees under the appropriate levels. At this point, I think, that is all I can say.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, my question is not on the deportation of Father Banyangandora, but on bringing him back to Zambia.
Mr Speaker, you will agree with me that the Catholic Church has been very patient and mature, and has used all the diplomatic methods. Can the His Honour the Vice-President state the actual position of his Government on this matter. Does he want us, Catholics, to walk the streets of Zambia naked for him to understand?
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Interruptions
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the latest information I have is that the Catholic Bishop in the Eastern Province wants to talk to the Government. He is most welcome. This query should, therefore, be directed, probably as a reminder, to the Bishop to come and talk.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President confirm whether his promise that farmers will be paid their money by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) by 31st October, which is four days away, still stands.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the current situation is that K1.3 trillion worth of maize, which is 1 million tonnes, was procured. Of this K1.3 trillion, at K65, 000 a bag, K1.122 trillion has so far been released into the commercial banking system for payment to the farmers. This is 87 per cent of all the monies owed to producers, which, I think, is a record year on year. I certainly do not remember any other time we managed to clear 87 per cent, leaving only 13 per cent before the end of October.
Mr Speaker, whether the farmers get this money in their pockets in four days’ time is largely up to the individual commercial banks because, as you know, commercial banks like to sit on money.
Laughter
The Vice-President: I want to plead with hon. Members of Parliament to follow this money up with the banks in their particular constituencies and try and get some action.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, what measures is the Government putting in place to stop cadres from fighting at State funerals.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we have a police force which is usually represented at State funerals and has, so far, succeeded in controlling cadre-cadre interactions at every State funeral I have attended. I do not think that this question is costing me or anybody else sleep.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, in today’s Zambia Daily Mail, there is an article saying that the PF Secretary-General, who is also the hon. Minister of Justice, has written to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) assuring them of his co-operation in the investigations into alleged corrupt activities by him and the hon. Minister of Defence, Mr G. B. Mwamba. The letter was copied to President Sata.
Sir, with this style of leadership, do you not think that undue influence is being exerted on the ACC, thereby undermining the rule of law?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would have thought that it was the other way round.
All the hon. Minister has done is to re-assure the ACC that there are no restrictions on its handling of any complaints against him. He is telling investigators to go ahead because he is at their disposal and will tell them what he knows about anything they will ask him. This is the exact opposite of placing undue pressure on the ACC.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, Zambia has qualified for the Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) 2013. The draws were conducted and we know the group in which we are. How will the Government help the national team to prepare so that we go to South Africa and retain the title?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we have sufficient resources to do the job. We were not the best-funded or best-rewarded team in the AFCON 2012, but we still prevailed. Therefore, we shall make sure that we prevail again just to drive the second nail into that particular coffin.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Speaker, the Zambia Daily Mail has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with an Iranian newspaper. What is our foreign policy towards Iran, a country that has been named a rogue State by the international community?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we have a minimum number of points in common with almost every State in the world. For example, Iran is a member of the United Nations (UN) like nearly everybody else. It is a member of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM), where I was Zambia’s representative in Tehran and I met President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and one or two other officials.
Sir, Zambia is simply keeping an eye out for any opportunities that may be open to us for co-operation. However, we have no embassy there even though we have diplomatic relations. I believe that the Iranian Ambassador to Zambia is based in Zimbabwe. There is nothing particularly warm or cold about our relationship with Iran. I do not think that the UN has actually called Iran a rogue State. There have been various concerns expressed about Iran’s nuclear ambitions and its strident anti-Israel rhetoric as well as its support for Syria, which we are aware of and keeping an eye on. However, there is nothing exciting happening.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, the Constitution-making process requires a political will. When will this process be concluded and, possibly, a referendum held?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I have answered this question before. The final report of the Technical Committee that is drawing up the Draft Constitution is due on 21st December, 2012, to be precise, but just before the end of the year anyway. The question about the date of the referendum and the formulation of the question of the referendum can only really be addressed once we have that report at hand and have all seen it. I am sure that we will then progress with it because we it to be part of our legacy that we gave this country a Constitution that will stand past the test of time, rather than a Constitution that was just made for short-term benefits to the Ruling Party.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, the Public Order Act was inherited from the colonial days and was put in place to frustrate African efforts to gain Independence. We are still holding on to this Act. Does His Honour the Vice-President believe that the Act is still good for this country?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, my understanding of such legislation as the Public Order Act is that everything lies in the implementation, rather than the wording which is, of course, vague in that it depends on the judgement of police officers. Some mechanism for keeping the peace during public demonstrations and meetings is, of course, essential. However, I would plead with the questioner to enter into dialogue with the police and try to reach a more calm understanding, if you like, of how we go forward with our democracy.
I thank you, Sir.
Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, the nation will recall that this Government gave millions of litres of fuel to Malawi. When asked whether Zambia would be paid, His Honour the Vice-President agreed that arrangements were being made for Malawi to pay for that fuel.
Interruptions
Ms Namugala: Has Malawi started paying? If so, how much has been paid because this money can go towards building hospitals for the people of Zambia.
Interruptions
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, again, I must mention, as I have before in the Vice-President’s Question Time, that, for answers about the actual dates of payment and amounts of payment, it is better to slip me the wink first so that I know it is coming and I can establish the correct answer. Naturally, I am not wondering around with answers in my pocket about how much Malawi has paid.
Laughter
The Vice-President: Sir, the provision of fuel at the time of the late President’s death and the inauguration of the new President of Malawi was an act of good neighbourliness designed not only to cement good relations, but also to ensure the security of Zambia, for that matter. There was no conceivable problem along our very open border as the hon. Member knows. There are holes in the border with Malawi known as zalewa, even in her constituency.
Laughter
The Vice-President: People walk freely between the two countries. People say it is a porous border, but I would rather say it is a non-existent border.
Laughter
The Vice-President: We need peace and prosperity in Malawi. Our act was out of self-interest but, at the same time, it was an important symbolic act to say, “we care about you because you are our neighbours”. Due to what we did, South Africa took the initiative from us and gave a whole month’s supply of fuel to Malawi. So, we were even showing our big Southern neighbours the way forward in this matter. I am proud of what we did.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank His Honour the Vice-President for the answer he has provided to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mafinga. However, no one is asking him to move with answers in his pockets. My question is: Does the Government have a policy on Government employees, including hon. Ministers, who report to work inebriated or drunk with alcohol? If that policy exists, could he, please, share with me what measures are normally put in place when that is established.
Laughter
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are standard disciplinary measures to be taken in cases of indiscipline such as may arise from an inebriated employee of the Government. As to the question of precisely what they are, I will have to consult the Secretary to the Cabinet. Of course, there are disciplinary measures there. However, I really must protest the questioner’s attempt to point me towards …
Mr Muntanga: Your neighbour!
Laughter
The Vice-President: … an individual in this House. It is not proper, Mr Speaker.
I thank you, Sir.
Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, forty-five days after the elections in 2006, the PF was holding a rally here in Lusaka and the Pubic Order Act was in existence, and I will lay the evidence on the Table. As such, is the fact that, a year after the last elections, we see the hon. Minister of Home Affairs hell-bent on stopping the Opposition from holding meetings by his abuse of the Public Order Act, actually a sign of a lack of confidence in this Government or truly what Hon. Masebo calls the hon. Minister of Home Affairs’ having drank too much coffee, and I will lay the evidence on the Table?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Siliya laid the paper on the Table.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am just wondering whether that is evidence of too much coffee …
Laughter
The Vice-President: … because that is the way she came out.
Laughter
The Vice-President: She said, “He has drunk too much coffee and I will lay the evidence on the Table.”
Laughter
The Vice-President: No, I do not think one can be precise. Presumably, the police, in 2006, forty-five days after the election, took the view that the situation in Lusaka was quiet and peaceful enough, and that there was no danger of a PF rally erupting into violence or disorder. Presumably, this time, the police have made a different judgement. I can only repeat that I think that the Opposition should spend more time engaging with the guardians of law and order than trying to score points off me after we have just had a whole ministerial statement with questions on that very subject.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, in the 2012 Budget, we were promised that we would be given eighteen boreholes in each constituency. When are the boreholes going to be sunk in Mwembeshi Constituency?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I have no idea.
I thank you, Sir.
Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, why have their royal highnesses the chiefs in the Western Province not been paid their dues for three months now, and what steps is the Government taking to rectify this situation?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am aware of that problem. It was brought to my attention in Mongu when I was there, the other day, and I am sure it has also been brought to the hon. Minister of Justice’s attention. As far as I can gather, it is not deliberate. I have asked the Secretary to the Cabinet to take the matter up and I am sure it is a purely administrative blockage.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, the Government, through the hon. Minister of Finance, has indicated that the Food Reserve Agency’s (FRA) mandate will be reverted to the original one. Could His Honour the Vice-President state if the Zambia Co-operative Federation is being considered to take up the marketing of crop.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the whole maize marketing issue is under review and it has been complicated this year by the severe shortage of grain of any sort in the Southern African region and the fact is it has been exacerbated by the South Africans exporting grain to Mexico and China.
Sir, a strategic intervention by the Government was required to secure, at least, sufficient carbohydrate to ensure that people could eat. The fundamental function of the FRA was not to become another National Marketing Board (NAMBOARD), which is what it has become. It is wasting money, it is haemorrhaging money and it is full of corruption, theft and inefficiencies. Unfortunately, there is still a strategic food reserve function that the Government has to, somehow, fulfil. Whether it fulfils it by giving contracts to private people or by operating a parastatal or even through the co-operative union, remains to be determined and is largely an administrative question and not a question of principle. So, the hon. Questioner is invited to keep that question, until, let us say, a month’s time and, maybe, I can provide more detail.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
________
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
ERRATIC WATER SUPPLY
214. Mr B. Mutale (Kwacha) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development when the Government would sink boreholes at schools which have erratic water supply in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency.
The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu): Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Commercial Utility, Nkana Water and Sewerage Company in Kwacha Constituency, is carrying out an assessment and will soon generate a report which will be submitted to the parent ministry, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.
Sir, you may wish to note that the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development are custodians of water resources and not water supply.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr B. Mutale: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that elaborate answer. However, is the hon. Minister aware that any public institution which lacks water should not operate?
Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, yes we are aware. So, it depends on the extent of the problem at a particular institution.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
MOSQUITO BREEDING
215. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing what measures had been taken to control the breeding of mosquitoes in the sewerage ponds in Garden Compound in Lusaka.
The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that Lusaka City Council, together with the Ministry of Health, Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company (LWSC) have been conducting routine larviciding and weeding of the sewerage ponds in Garden Compound.
Sir, the annual routine works intensify during the rainy season, when the breeding rates are high. The works include the following:
(a) Surveys
These are conducted in conjunction with the National Malaria Control Centre to establish the breed sites and, also, to establish which type of mosquito is breeding and which larvicide is appropriate to be applied. The surveys have, actually, revealed that the majority of mosquitoes that breed in the ponds do not cause malaria but they are referred to as nuisance mosquitoes.
(b) Weeding
This is done in conjunction with the Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company as they are the owners of the ponds. They have a routine programme of weeding and have been consistent in the last three years.
(c) Larviciding
From October, 2010, to date, six different types of larvicides have been applied on the advice of the National Malaria Control Centre, which provides technical advice and expertise in terms of entomologists as part of the national programme in the control and mitigation of malaria.
(d) National Larviciding Program
In 2010, the Government contracted a Cuban consultancy firm which carried out a National larviciding programme which covered most of the county where malaria is prevalent including the area around Garden Compound in Lusaka. The programme involved aerial sprays and larvicides and other insecticides using airplanes. Garden Compound was extensively covered during this programme and households were given larvicides to apply in pit latrines which also serve as breeding sites for mosquitoes.
Sir, weeding and larviciding for the 2012-2013 malaria season is scheduled to be conducted between October and December, 2012.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister is aware that those ponds are dangerous to people who live around that area. Is it not possible for the Government to do away with those ponds so that the community can be safer?
The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Kabanshi): Mr Speaker, LWSC is making sure that the ponds are made very safe for the people who live around those areas and it is fenced. LWSC also makes sure that the ponds are treated annually.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
MOBILE HOSPITAL SERVICES
216. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Health when the mobile hospital services would be extended to Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency.
The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, the mobile health services were provided in Kakombo Village, Chief Shakumbila’s area in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency from 11th to 15h June, 2012.
Sir, the Government intends to extend the mobile health services to Nangoma Constituency again in January, 2013 as these services are covering all the seven districts in Central Province.
I thank you, sir.
Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, since there are places far away from the main hospital, why is the Government failing to build clinics in places like Nachilumbi which is about 20 km from the main hospital?
The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, the Government is certainly not failing to build hospitals but proceeding in a systematic way in doing this. This is not failure. The issue will be attended to in due course.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Sir, during the time when these mobile hospitals were in Nangoma, a lot of patients failed to access treatment due to the fact that the mobile hospitals were just located at one place. Now, when will that hon. Minister ensure that when these mobile hospitals go into constituencies, they are mobile other than being stationed at one particular place?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Member’s capacity to identify particular places in need of these services is not being usefully applied to the issue. Appropriately, the correct way would be to point at the institutions and areas where need has arisen. I look forward to making use of the capacity of the hon. Member in identifying those places. Our current rule is that mobile hospitals shall be sufficiently close to physical facilities for continuity of care.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Siamunene (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, from the time these mobile hospitals were introduced, has the ministry done any evaluation to ascertain the effectiveness of this programme?
Dr Kasonde: Sir, yes it is true that there is need to evaluate the performance of such a major expense as mobile hospitals. It is also true that the ministry not only monitors this programme as the time proceeds but we will also undertake a formal evaluation at intervals.
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
There are too many people consulting loudly. Please, let us give the hon. Minister chance to be heard.
Continue, hon. Minister.
Dr Kasonde: Sir, this service is intended to have an evaluation but has not yet because it has not been long enough in the country.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
BAR-OWNERS WHO ADMIT UNDER-AGED PATRONS
217. Mr Chungu (Luanshya) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
(a) whether any bar owner in Luanshya District had ever been prosecuted for allowing the patronage of under-aged children in their bars; and
(b) if so, how many had been prosecuted as of 31st August, 2012.
The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Speaker, so far no bar owner has been prosecuted in the courts of law for allowing the patronage of under-aged children in their bars. However, the task force has continued to carry out random inspections in beer selling points and as at 31st August, 2012, a total number of eleven bars were closed and the owners were made to pay admission of guilt fees at the police.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
MANGANGO HEALTH CENTRES
218. Mr Taundi (Mangango) asked the Minister of Health:
(a) when the construction of rural health centres at the following places in Mangango Parliamentary Constituency would be completed and opened to the public:
(i) Mushwala;
(ii) Nalulembwe;
(iii) Kafwasonyi; and
(iv) Namaloba; and
(b) when qualified medical staff would be deployed at Winda and Kasabi Rural Health Centres.
Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the construction of rural health centres at the following places in Mangango Parliamentary Constituency will be completed as follows:
(a) the construction works of the health post at Mushwala have reached an advanced level. The estimation of completion is end of the first quarter of 2013. The health centre is expected to be opened to the public in the second quarter of 2013;
(b) the health post at Nalulembwe has been completed and remaining works include the staff house and VIP latrine. The works have received extra funding and final procurement for materials is currently under way. Works are expected to be completed by end of 2012. The health facility is expected to be opened to the public in the first quarter of 2013;
(c) construction works at Kafwasonyi Health Post have stalled as the funding has been exhausted due to inadequate allocation. The works are being included in the infrastructure capital investment plan for 2013 to 2015, which is currently being finalised. The health centre is expected to be opened to the public in the fourth quarter of 2013; and
(d) the construction works at Namaloba are expected to be completed by the end of 2012. The health centre is expected to be opened to the public in the first quarter of 2013.
Mr Speaker, the Government through the ministry of Health will deploy medical staff at Winda and Kasabi Rural Health Centres as follows:
(a) Winda Health Centre has an establishment of four qualified staff. There are two vacant funded positions for an enrolled nurse and an environmental health technologist. The Government will post a Zambia enrolled nurse and an environmental health technologist during phase two of the recruitment exercise which is scheduled to be undertaken before the end of 2012; and
(b) Kasabi Rural Centre has an establishment of four qualified staff. There is one funded vacant staff position for a Zambia enrolled nurse. The Government will post a Zambia enrolled nurse during phase two of the recruitment exercise which is scheduled to be undertaken before the end of this year.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Taundi: Mr Speaker, the rural health centre at Kafwasonyi is separated by a river from the next clinic which is at Mwito. During the rainy season, it means that the people in that area will be cut off from the clinic at Mwito. Would the Government not consider this as an urgent matter so that it can come to their aid by sourcing funds quickly to complete this facility?
Dr Kasonde: Yes, Mr Speaker, I fully sympathise with the situation of our colleagues who have …
Interruptions
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
I think we have a problem on my right. Please, consult quietly. The hon. Minister cannot be heard.
The hon. Minister can continue.
Dr Kasonde: Sir, I agree with the hon. Member that the rainy season is a problem for some areas, particularly his area and this, therefore, is cause for us to move as fast as we can. I cannot promise any faster speed than this.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, are there already staff houses where construction of rural health centres is being carried out?
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, in the answer that the hon. Deputy Minister read to the House, it was clear that there are three phases of construction. The first phase of construction does not include housing, but the second phase does. That is where institutions such as hospitals are concerned. It is not really a question that can be answered in a vacuum, as it were. It has to be in relation to a particular institution that is under construction. What phase of construction are we at? It will be described in each phase what kind of areas of that institution will be constructed. I hope this is very clear to the hon. Member.
I thank you, Sir.
SCHOOLS IN THE COUNTRY
219. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:
(a) what the total number of learning institutions under each of the following categories in the country was as of 31st December, 2011:
(i) basic schools;
(ii) high schools;
(iii) grant-aided schools;
(iv) private schools; and
(v) community schools; and
(b) whether grant-aided schools received the grants through the office of the provincial education officer and, if not, how the grants were disbursed.
The Deputy of Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, the total number of learning institutions under each of the categories above in the country as of 31st December, 2011 is as follows:
Type of School Number of Schools
Basic Schools 8,384
High Schools 223
Grant-Aided Schools 288
Private Schools 536
Community Schools 2,512
Total 12,043
Mr Speaker, in terms of the disbursement of the grants, all grant-aided institutions, high and special schools are funded through respective church secretariats, directly from the Ministry of Finance.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, how far has the programme of transforming high schools into secondary schools gone?
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the ministry is restructuring the nomenclature of the education system and not converting high schools into secondary schools. This will, of course, require investment for additional infrastructure at secondary school level because there are many primary schools and only a few secondary schools.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, when does the Government intend to embark on the new programme of phasing out the basic schools?
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!
Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was about to start answering a supplementary question asked by the hon. Member for Katombola. In terms of the operationalisation for the nomenclature, it will commence in 2013. However, it is going to be an on-going exercise.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, I think this issue has raised a lot of anxiety. Is there a timeframe for infrastructure development at high and secondary schools levels? Can the hon. Minister assure the House and the people that this is so.
The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, that is a very useful question. If the Government had adequate resources, we would have changed these things forthwith. However, we realise that there are budgetary constraints to deal with this huge problem of too many primary schools chasing too few secondary schools. This is why you will discover in the next Budget discussions that we are concentrating on building more secondary schools and this is precisely why we used the words “phasing out the basic high school arrangement to bring in the primary and secondary school structure”. The progress towards normalising this structure would depend on how much money is allocated each year to build secondary schools and absorb the number that has increased at primary school level. For the past ten years or so, we concentrated on primary school level which was very good. However, I think it is time to give our children an opportunity to go into secondary school education because we realise it is at secondary school education where they are given knowledge and skills to be used in their lives.
I thank you, Sir.
YOUTH CLUBS IN THE NORTHERN PROVINCE
220. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Youth and Sport:
(a) how many youth clubs in the Northern Province benefited from grants and loans from 1st January, 2010 to 31st December, 2011; and
(b) what economic activities the clubs at (a) above were engaged in.
The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Mubukwanu): Mr Speaker, 146 youth clubs benefited from grants while sixteen benefited from loans in the period under review.
Mr Speaker, the youth groups which acquired loans where engaged in various activities such as timber processing, animal husbandry, butchery, photo copying and printing services, block making, lodge and board services, metal fabrication, banana cultivation, poultry, crop farming and T-shirt printing.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, to some extent, it has been discovered that there have been cases of financial mismanagement. May I know whether the Government has serious intentions of introducing funds for monitoring?
Mr Mubukwanu: Mr Speaker, I wish to confirm that the Government has made monitoring and evaluation an integral component of the 2012 disbursement and management of the Youth Empowerment Fund.
I thank you, Sir.
MONEY OWED TO ZESCO
221. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development:
(a) how much money was owed to the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) Limited by electricity consumers countrywide as of June, 2012; and
(b) how and when ZESCO Limited would recover the debt above.
The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu):Mr Speaker, as at 30th June, 2012, ZESCO Limited was owed a total of K538.2 billion by consumers countrywide.
Mr Speaker, ZESCO has put in place measures on debt recovery. The first one is to intensively install pre-paid meters to all customers throughout the country, and for those customers who owe the firm money, factor the debt component into the pre-paid meters. The implication of this measure is that the debt will not grow any further as customers will settle the arrears as they purchase electricity units. Therefore, all new customers will be connected to pre-paid meters to curb the growth of debt.
Mr Speaker, ZESCO will continue to intensify disconnections on all defaulting customers. In addition, the institution has been cultivating the possibility of debt swap with the Government institutions or agencies offering a service.
Mr Speaker, installation of pre-paid meters is an on-going programme. Therefore, on customers who owe, the debt is being reduced through the 40 per cent reduction on every purchase of units. Since the launch of pre-paid meters in all provincial cities, ZESCO Limited targets to install pre-paid meters on all residential, commercial and social tariffs customers by June, 2013. The debt is, therefore, expected to be liquidated by 2015.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out a little bit more from the hon. Minister. As he is aware that ZESCO is only installing pre-paid meters to the single-phase customers, how will ZESCO recover the debt that is owed by customers using three-phase connection for which it is not installing pre-paid meters? Disconnections are not the solution.
The Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, ZESCO is doing everything possible to ensure it recovers the debt owed to it through a lifespan of up to June, 2013. So, we are going to do just that through the installation of prepaid meters. We have no problem regarding whether it is single or three- phase connections. We will recover the debt.
I thank you, Sir.
FUNDING TO THE PHARMACEUTICAL REGULATORY AUTHORITY
222. Mr Ntundu asked the Minister of Health:
(a) how much money the Government had released to the Pharmaceutical Regulatory Authority in 2011;
(b) on what activities the money was spent; and
(c) how much was spent on allowances for board members.
The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, in 2011, the Government released a total sum of K1,198,429,535.53 to the Pharmaceutical Regulatory Authority (PRA). The money released to the authority was spent on personnel emoluments, administration of the Dangerous Drugs Act and board expenses.
Sir, K86,770,000.00 was spent on the board members of the PRA.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, the release of slightly over 1 billion kwacha to the regulatory authority is a mockery because this authority is mandated to check the quality of drugs that come into the country. Is K1 billion all you can release? When will this PF Government ensure that this authority is given enough money in order for it to carry out its mandate …
Hon. UPND Member: Properly.
Mr Ntundu: … properly?
Laughter
Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for drawing attention to a very important issue of the extent to which we control the type of drugs that we receive in the country. I think the hon. Member is on the right path. However, he may not be on the right path in the sense that he does not take into account the resources available to the PRA which are not necessarily a subvention from the Government. It is, indeed, this very reason that the Government, in its wisdom, made it possible for the PRA, in addition to the subvention from the Government, to raise funds through various fees. For the time being, this has been the case. Let me just assure the hon. Member that in spite of that, the Government is considering a possible increase. Nevertheless, the mainstay will have to remain the capacity of this important organisation to levy appropriate fees at appropriate times.
I thank you, Sir.
__________
MOTION
BUDGET 2013
(Debate Resumed)
Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according me this chance to add some words to the Motion on the Floor.
Mr Speaker, Budgets come and go. However, the livelihood of the people remains. Budgets are formed to serve mankind. We come up with Budgets. However, these Budgets do not seem to work, and are just a matter of formalising issues. Formalities will not bring food.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, formalities will not bring roads, schools or health centres. The Budget was well-presented. However, I am surprised that we ably present Budgets that we do not implement ably.
Mr Speaker, if you went to Kalabo, it would be very difficult for you to note any change of the Government. Maybe, you would only notice the increased hardships of the people.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, we had hoped that the new Government was going to reduce the hardships, especially of the people of Kalabo. I recall that, long ago, when I was a child, I used to see relief food being thrown out of an aircraft in Kalabo. I saw this in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Governments.
Mr Speaker, one thing that has changed, despite a number of Budgets that have been passed in this House, is the drastic change in the number of herds of cattle. We had quite many animals in Kalabo. Budgets have been passed here. However, there has been no implementation to help sustain the herds of cattle in Kalabo and other places in the Western Province. Currently, we no longer depend on herds of cattle because the kraals are empty.
Sir, there were words uttered by the President of this country assuring the people of the Southern and Western provinces that interest would be shown to revamping the livestock sector. However, not one dip-tank has been constructed in the Western Province since then. As I speak, people are still waiting for the vaccination of cattle against Contagious Bovine Pleuro-pneumonia (CBPP) and Anthrax, yet this issue was raised on the Floor of this House. We were promised that the vaccination of cattle would be done. However, as of Friday, last week, nothing had been done. Today is Friday and, next week, October, will end. The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock assured us that vaccinations would be in September and October this year. We have only one October and September in each year.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, these two months will soon disappear. I do not know which other September and October we should expect these animals to be vaccinated. The current Government does not seem to want to put the Western Province or Kalabo District on top of its priorities. It does not care whether our animals are dying or not.
Sir, the Budget was made and there was no provision for vaccination. The Government must answer why this is so before December, this year.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, there is also the issue of crop diversification. We have to look at these regions properly. We should not force people to grow certain crops in places where they are not suitable to be grown. Where I come from, we depend on cassava and millet. During the previous Government, cassava stalks suitable for those areas used to be transported to Kalabo to be planted. However, it is twelve months since the new Government took over, yet we have not seen any crop diversification in Kalabo.
Sir, the crop variety grown there has not been changed to one that suits the environment and the land there has lost its fertility completely. This means that the Government has to come up with remedial measures. If the Government told us to grow maize, we would not grow it because we do not have land suitable for growing maize. Therefore, the hon. Minister must know that cassava is our interest in Kalabo, and he has to ensure that we are able to grow cassava. We have been living on cassava and it has made us what we are.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, we are told that education is a key. However, this education which is the key is becoming stale because schools have not received what they were promised. There was a strong mention of free education. We, who are poverty-stricken in the rural areas, had hope that the children will start attending schools which have good facilities. Alas, we did not get the requisites which we were supposed to receive.
Mr Speaker, pupils are waiting for free education, but it is not forthcoming. There are no books or pens, yet that should have been the case if we were to provide free education. I happen to have received free education. The President said in this House that the Government was going to deliver free education and, when the Government comes on the platform and promises free education, it means that tuition is free and that classrooms and desks will be available. Chalk, exercise books and textbooks must be available. If these are not availed to children, education ceases to be free.
Sir, we should be mindful of the fact that some places are different, like I said. This Government knows that the Western Province is poor and that the people in the rural part of the province are not able to send their children to school. What has the Government done to help these people send their children to school?
Mr Speaker, when we go back to our constituencies, these are the difficulties we find. The issue of phasing out basic schools seems to be simple here in Lusaka but, in Kalabo, it is a big question because people are waiting to see those secondary schools which they used to see during the Kaunda era. They want to see primary schools. However, it seems that there is no proper timeframe. So, this one will be a statement which will only be blown away by the wind. It will be part of history that there was a Government which promised to change the system of education but, failed to do so.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Miyutu: We are now entering the second year, and everything should have been planned to be implemented within the five years the PF was given. One year has already passed, yet we have not changed the basic schools into secondary and primary schools. We are remaining with four years and, for me, there is no hope that things will change in the remaining four years.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Sir, Zambians must know that the same basic schools and high schools will continue to exist.
Mr Speaker, the amount of money which has been allocated for the development of the infrastructure to accommodate the pupils from the basic schools is K393 billion. Looking at the Budget, the amount for infrastructure development for basic and high schools is diminishing, instead of broadening. This means that the hope of having secondary schools will be in vain because the funds are insufficient.
Sir, if the Government wants to do something, it should, first of all, plan and acquire resources before making announcements on the platform. How do you just utter something without financial backing? This is the reason the Government tells us to plan. What is to plan? Do you plan without financial resources? If you do, your plans will just pass and that will be another failure.
Mr Speaker, whoever initiated the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), to us in rural areas, it is a blessing. However, the amount for 2012 was K1 billion and the same amount has appeared again in the 2013 Budget. If the CDF is static in a country like Zambia where prices and population change every day, what kind of mathematics is that?
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: That is disproportionate. We want proportionate mathematics, not the one which is ‘dis-’ because it means back.
Sir, logically, the CDF should be increased. Last year, we understood because the PF was new in the Government. This year, we cannot understand the newness. Being new is always replaced by being old.
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: You cannot continue being new every day. When will you be old?
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, the Government is now old in the system and should have known the problems. So, we will not agree with K1 billion. We want the K5 billion that we wanted last year so that we construct the clinics the Government has not constructed. We are also going to construct the 2, 000 classrooms that we were promised, but did not receive even one.
Mr Speaker, if the Government gives us the K5 billion, it is going to do a big job. Let someone go to Kalabo and see what the K1 billion has done. Just one K1 billion! They will see that the CDF is the only thing that can save the people in rural areas. Let us not look at Lusaka only. We should look at the remote part of the country, from where most of us are running. In short, we want the CDF to be increased to K5 billion.
Mr Speaker, as regards the issue of centralised planning, this is 2012, and you still expect that think-tanks are only found in Lusaka. Why should the approval of a project for constructing a school be done in Lusaka? If you expect somebody who is 1, 000km away from Kalabo to approve a project, when will it be implemented? This is what we are running away from. So, we want the CDF to be increased and planning to be done locally as it has always been …
Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to raise this important point of order. The hon. Member on the Floor is advocating very seriously an important matter with which we, on your left, and our colleagues on your right agree: that the CDF has to be increased for us to channel meaningful development to our people. Is the hon. Minister of Finance, who is being addressed, in order to spend a large part of this segment listening to a debate by Hon. G. B. Mwamba?
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
To the extent that hon. Members are allowed to consult, I take it that the hon. Members were consulting seriously on the issue of the CDF.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member for Kalabo Central continue, please.
Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, before I wind up, I would like to urge the Government to reverse the decision to impose custom duty on iron sheets.
Sir, the people we represent are poor. If they could not afford the duty-free iron sheets, will they be able to buy them now that customs duty has been imposed on them? In other words, it is like the Government wants those people in rural areas to remain poor and continue living in the grass-thatched huts which the same Government wants to run away from. If the Government wants to be credited, let them re-think their proposed policy over the custom duty concerning the iron sheets. Those iron sheets should not only benefit those in urban areas but even us in rural areas as well. Unless they are going to tell us that there will be two classes. One for those that have the money and the other type of iron sheets without custom duty for us in the rural areas then we will give you a green light.
Sir, the Link Zambia 8,000 Project is quite good. However, the Government has to awaken. They have to awaken because …
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: … their Civil Service does not deliver. I stay with those civil servants in Kalabo. I see how much effort I put in culvet which has taken almost a year. If it takes a year to put up a culvet of about five square meters, how much will the same Government need to construct 8,000 km of road? How will the Road Development Agency (RDA), which has failed to construct a culvet on Kalabo/Sikongo Road, manage to do these 8,000 kilometres? They need to double up their effort.
Mr Speaker, we want the Kalabo/Kalongola/Sinkongo Road. We want it done in reality and not just said by word of mouth …
Laughter
Mr Miyutu: We also want an increase in the social cash transfer. K83 billion is not sufficient. Let them increase the amount because it is really helping people in the rural areas. I hope the Government has heard cry of the people of Kalabo.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I want to salute you for having accorded me the opportunity to debate the 2013 Budget address presented to this august House on 12th October, 2012 by Sir Alex Chikwanda, …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: … the hon. Minister of Finance, whose theme is Delivering Inclusive Development and Social Justice.
Mr Speaker, I stand here as a humble Member of Parliament with a lot of respect to whoever made an effort of contributing to the Budget which was presented to us.
Sir, before I raise my points, I would like to counsel a few of my friends who have lamentably failed to realise the point that when you are debating a budget, it is important to go through the document and debate only what is contained in it.
Mr Speaker, I have been observing since some of my colleagues came to this august House and it seems that a number of them were not oriented by their political parties.
Laughter
Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I hesitantly and reluctantly rose on this point of order. Is the hon. Member who is on the Floor and who we expected to debate the Motion on the Floor, in order to begin to debate hon. Members when the rule of this House is that we should not debate ourselves. Is he in order to even attempt to lecture us when he is incapable of doing the same?
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: The ruling is by way of guidance. As we debate let us desist from debating ourselves. With this guidance, please continue.
Mr Chisala: Much obliged, Sir.
Mr Speaker, I would like to begin by stating that this budget presented to us by the Minister of Finance is a very important Budget. I have discussed the Budget presentation with economic analysts, church leaders, politicians, teachers, lawyers and many more. They have come to tell me that it is one of the best Budgets that Zambian has ever produced since we attained independence in 1964.
Mr Speaker, when I queried further, two of the economic analysts told me that this is because the current Minister of Finance is using experience and experience is the best teacher. It is for that reason that the Ministry of Finance managed to come up with the good budget.
Mr Speaker, …
Hon. Opposition Member: Question!
Laughter
Mr Chisala: A lot of our colleagues have been condemning the PF Government saying that we have lamentably failed to give the Zambian people more money in their pockets.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: However, I would like to remind my colleagues that when we coined the motto ‘More money in your pockets’ we did not mean that the money will come without hard work. It means that people have to work extra hard and only then will they receive what they are intend to have.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
There has been a lot of talk about money in the pocket. Allow the hon. Member to explain what he meant.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I would like to emphasise that when to told people that we would put more money in their pockets we meant that people should work extra hard so that they receive the money they have been expecting.
Mr Speaker, the propounder of the Marxist school of thought once indicated that we are all products of capitalism. By this he meant that we have to work extra hard in order for us to progress in our communities. It is in this respect that I am requesting my colleagues who have been criticising our motto of more money in our pockets to make sure that they encourage members of community to work hard and only then will we make positive achievements.
Mr Speaker, in my view, hard work is a key to success. Those of you who have studied history at an advanced level would agree that when there was an economic crisis in Europe on 24th October, 1929, the people emancipated themselves from that crisis because they realised that they could only overcome their problems through hard work.
Sir, I am, therefore, reminding my colleagues that these issues of blaming each other will not take us anywhere. If you want to progress, you the people in the opposition and we the people in the executive must make sure that we work together.
Interruptions
Mr Chisala: We need your ideas where possible but if you are not ready we cannot force you. However, we need the ideas of those that are ready to work with us so that we can drive this country to higher heights.
Mr Speaker, I was recently impressed …
Mr Livune: On a point of Order, Mr Speaker.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to mislead the House and the entire nation that he belongs to the executive when he is a backbencher? Actually, he rightfully belongs to this side (left) of the House. I need your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
I got his submission to mean that he is a sympathiser of the Executive.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: May he continue.
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. When the hon. Minister of Finance came to this august House, he reminded Zambians to liberate themselves from the yoke of slavery in terms of poverty. When he was delivering the Budget Speech, he said that he removed duty from farming equipment, fishing boats, canoes, ferry boats, pontoons and other water vessels. He also removed duty from motor bikes and ambulances. This simply means that our mode of production will be more effective. Therefore, this is a positive achievement and it is going to assist Zambians greatly.
Mr Speaker, in as far as sport is concerned, most of the people have been complaining that Zambia has concentrated more on soccer. The listening PF Government did realise that it is high time they removed duty on sports equipment so that even other sports can be concentrated on. The hon. Minister of Finance took that into consideration. The three years we have been given is enough for us to acquire whatever sporting equipment we need and put it to good use. It will help us improve on other sport activities. Last time, I overheard the rugby players complaining that Government has failed to assist them to acquire the sports equipment. This is a golden opportunity for all Zambians who want to improve in this sphere.
Mr Speaker, our colleagues from the Opposition have criticised us in most areas. In this regard, there has been constructive criticism and unconstructive criticism. I therefore, request the Cabinet Ministers and their deputies to see to it that they are not swayed by these unnecessary criticisms because we are the ones who can drive the affairs of this country in the right direction.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, as PF, we are following our manifesto and we are not going to dance to someone’s tune. When their time to rule this country comes, that is when they can bring those ideas. I am therefore, requesting my colleagues to desist from bringing any kind of destruction to our governance system.
Interruptions
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker,…
Mr Ntundu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order.
Interruptions
Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi in order to start debating about criticism instead of going straight to the Motion which was well debated by the Member for Chama North, Hon. January Zimba yesterday?
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
To the extent that he was advising the front bench not be swayed by destructive criticism, he was in order. Continue.
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I want to talk about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, each and every hon. Member of Parliament in this House, elected or nominated knows the importance of this fund. Last year, when we took over the leadership of this country, we did allocate K1 billion towards the CDF per constituency. This year, we have been told that the amount still stands the same. We have realised the importance of this money in our constituencies. We need to make sure that those disgruntled and scrupulous controlling officers in provinces do not pounce or misuse this money.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, therefore, this money is important because it helps us change the faces of our constituencies. I therefore, make a humble request…
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Allow the hon. Member to make a humble request. Proceed.
Laughter
Mr Chisala: … to the hon. Minister of Finance that if possible, Sir Alex should at least consider increasing the CDF by 2 per cent.
Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. I do not know who Sir Alex is in this House. The person I know is Hon. Alexander Bwalya Chikwanda, Minister of Finance and not Sir Alex. Now, is the hon. Member for Chilubi referring to Sir Alex Ferguson or what? I need your serious ruling, Sir.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The serious ruling is that the hon. Member who described himself as humble, unfortunately, acquired immense powers to the extent that he ignited the hon. Minister of Finance. If those powers are his, then it is doubtful if he was in order. May he continue.
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, actually, I was referring to the Minister of Finance, Hon. Alexander Bwalya Chikwanda.
Mr Speaker, I have already made my point on the CDF and I do not want to repeat what I said.
Interruptions
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has heard that I have requested for 2 per cent increment towards the CDF.
Hon. Opposition Members: 2 per cent?
Mr Chisala: Sir, it has been discovered that sometimes, this CDF is abused by some senior officers in local authorities and some hon. Members of Parliament.
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I therefore, request the Office of the Auditor-General to make sure that all culprits are taken to the Courts of Law because this Government wants to deliver goods and services to the people of Zambia. We can only do this, when we see to it that funds are not tampered with by unscrupulous citizens.
Mr Speaker, I want to commend the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, his Deputy, including the chief officers, because in the one year they have been in office, my constituency has benefited through the funding that has been extended to the woman’s clubs. This is because they are committed to the Patriotic Front (PF) programme. However, the biggest problem that I have observed is that the district community officers and community assistants do not have transport. It is in this vein, that the hon. Minister responsible for community development, should make slight adjustments to the proposed Budget, so much so that, at least, some money can be set aside for the purchase of vehicles, motorbikes and boats for our community development officers. It is only when they do that, that we are going to see these officers work effectively. In the absence of that, it will be very difficult for these workers to work effectively and meet everyone’s expectations.
Mr Speaker, it has been observed that out of the money that the ministry has been disbursing to the woman clubs in various districts, there has not been some extra money allocated for monitoring purposes. This means that those women who are in our communities can easily mismanage these funds. I am, therefore, requesting the hon. Minister, his Deputy, and the permanent secretary, to ensure that a fund is introduced for monitoring purposes and, in that way we shall progress.
With these words, I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to also contribute to this Motion on the Floor. Allow me to first start by congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance on the 2013 Budget, and his attempt to translate the pronouncements of his Government into tangible implementation outcomes.
Mr Speaker, as we all know, the Budget is a tool for poverty alleviation. Any Government must, therefore, ensure that it puts in place a pro-poor Budget, which addresses the plight of the majority of the people, while, at the same time, ensuring an enabling environment for the private sector to continue growing, because we all know that with a thriving private sector, jobs will be assured.
Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has articulated the macro-economic indicators and targets for 2013. He has also talked about the 7 per cent gross domestic product (GDP) growth rate. We all know that our country has been growing at an average rate of 6 per cent GDP growth for the last five years. We also know, and acknowledge that, this has not translated into a reduction of the poverty levels of our people. Therefore, the challenge for all of us is to ensure that, while we propound the macro-economic indicators, we also translate them into benefits affecting the lives of our people every day.
Mr Speaker, our poverty levels, especially in the rural areas have remained very high. According to the United Nations (UN), our human development indicator is one of the worst in the world. What is the problem? Why is it that, although we are economically growing, there is still no real progress on the part of our people? Where does this problem lie?
Mr Speaker, unemployment levels remain very high, especially among the young people. Health indicators are not the best in the world, and are not significantly improving as our people are failing to even access the health facilities. We also agree that, while there is no single cause of economic progress, there are many factors that we need to take into account.
Mr Speaker, the people in the rural areas hear from us, the people in Lusaka, talk about how we are developing. They hear of the developments that are taking place, and some of them, when they come from Mafinga to visit Manda Hill, they think they are in a different country. The inequalities between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have nots’ have not changed, and the gap remains wide.
Mr Speaker, our people in the rural areas even fail to access drugs in hospitals. It is our duty, together with the Government that is serving the people, to ensure that these inequalities are reduced.
Mr Speaker, most of the people are currently living below one dollar per day. For them, unless the Budget can change the amount of food that they put on the table, it still remains just a discussion point, and makes no difference to them. What, then, should the Government do? It should ensure that it puts strategies in place to reduce the inequalities, and that the majority of the people are accessing the basics that they need.
Mr Speaker, what does the K32.2 trillion Budget for 2013 mean for the people of Mafinga? What is in the Budget, if the construction of the road that started two years ago cannot be completed? What does the 2013 Budget mean to a child in Mafinga, who has to travel everyday in the morning for seven to eight km in order to access primary education? What does this Budget mean, to a woman in Mafinga, who has to die in child birth, because the nearest hospital is twenty km away?
Hon. Government Member: What did you do while you were in Government?
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the response of what did you do, is neither here nor there, because the people are, to date, suffering after electing and celebrating, when the PF Government won.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: After coming out in numbers at night demanding to know the results of the elections, and celebrating the fact that, at last, their saviour was in State House, they are still suffering. The 2012 Budget was coined as, a Movement for Multi-party Party (MMD) Budget, and yet it was a very good Budget, and we even commended the hon. Minister of Finance for it. However, it has been disowned and instead, they claim that the 2013 Budget, is their Budget, and yet this Budget has nothing for the poor people. The People in Kaputa are still experiencing the problems of how to take their crops to the market, failing to access high school education, not being paid for their maize on time and still have no access to police stations. At the end of the day, while we propound the macro-economic indicators in this Budget, it does not mean anything to my grandmother in the village.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: At the end of the day, unless you can buy the crop, teach them new farming methods or send their grandchildren to school, this Budget means nothing. It does not mean anything even to the people of Kasama who are struggling to access formal jobs.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: There is nothing for those women who celebrated when the PF won in Kasama Central. There is nothing in this Budget for those who are selling groundnuts at Shoprite in Kasama. They are still languishing and selling groundnuts. Now they have turned around and are saying that there is nothing that they did because they did not change anything. In fact, the change has been for the worse.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, physical development and human capital development should be key for the Government. We need to ensure that, even as we allocate resources for road in this Budget, the projects do not take ten years to complete. They must be completed in time and delivered to the people because we know that physical infrastructure is a catalyst for development.
Sir, the hospitals that we promised the people must not remain pronouncements for political platforms. They must be a reality. There is no reason a woman must move from Mtendere to Isoka to deliver a baby. There is no reason for a woman to move from Muyombe to Isoka for a simple operation. You have said, as the PF Government, that, forty-eight years after Iindependence, our people cannot fail to access basic requirements. The ninety days promise was very attractive. Alas, ninety days became nine months and now it is one year one month, yet the promises remain unfulfilled.
Mr Mwila interjected.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
The hon. Member on my right should desist from shouting. Hon. Members on the Front Bench are busy taking notes and, the moment you start shouting, they turn to the back to see what is happening.
The hon. Member for Mafinga may continue.
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, we have been there and now we are here.
Hon. Government Member: Why?
Ms Namugala: We offer very good advice to those in the Government because we care about the people. Poverty knows no PF or MMD.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: When our people suffer, they suffer together, regardless of their political affiliation.
Mr Speaker, I want to offer a bit of advice to the Government. What do we need to do to move forward? The hon. Minister talked about job creating sectors, such as tourism, agriculture, forestry and manufacturing, and I agree with him. However, it is not enough for him to simply pronounce them as job creating sectors. It is important for us to walk the talk. Allocate resources to these sectors. If you are going to talk about diversifying this economy and creating jobs, then, resources must be allocated to the sectors that will create these jobs. For instance, maize has been the focus of the agricultural sector. When you talk agriculture, you talk about maize, yet we know that livestock farming is a very lucrative business for our people.
Sir, the MMD Government, when in power, created the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries because it realised the need to deal with diseases and grow the animal population in the country. If, indeed, we are going to grow the agricultural sector, then we cannot continue to focus on crop production alone. We need to allocate resources to livestock farming too. The livestock farmers in Mafinga, for example, were very excited when they realised that they had a ministry of their own. We saw the dip-tanks being attended to and farmers trained. We saw a real focus on increasing the animal population in Mafinga. For some of our people, livestock farming is the only livelihood that they know.
The people of the Southern Province …
Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order which borders on the history of the political dispensation of this country.
Mr Speaker is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mafinga in order to mislead the House that the MMD Government created the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries when, in fact, that ministry was created as a result of having forgotten Bradford Machila in the appointments? Is she in order to mislead the House?
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
To the extent that the ministry was created when the MMD was ruling, she is in order.
You may continue, hon. Member for Mafinga.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, it cannot be over-emphasised that livestock farming is a very lucrative business for most of our people and we need to pay attention, hon. Minister, if we are going to reduce poverty. My suggestion is that we go back. There have been many areas where the Government has tried to change things. It has aligned and re-aligned ministries only to realise that what the MMD had done was the best and have gone back. There is nothing wrong with that. We are asking that, yet again, the Government goes back. It is okay because it is learning.
Laughter
Ms Namugala: In any case, it is good to accept that you are not always right.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Re-create the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries, above all, to develop the agricultural sector.
Let us not continue saying that wheat, for example, can only be produced by farmers who have enough capital to invest in centre pivots. We are looking down on ourselves. Are we sure that, using this Budget, the people of Zambia cannot create avenues to access resources for them to be big farmers? Why does the Government want our farmers to remain subsistent; growing and eating?
Hon. Minister, think outside the box. I know that you can, my elder brother.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Let us also promote indigenous black wheat farmers in Muyombe. There is nothing wrong with that.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, there is no point in our talking about growing the agricultural sector when we are importing cornflakes every year. Every year, we proclaim a bumper harvest of maize, yet we keep importing cornflakes. The major consumers of these cornflakes are the hon. Ministers.
Laughter
Ms Namugala: Every morning.
Mr Speaker, we need to start thinking about adding value to our agricultural products because we know …
Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Speaker is the hon. Member debating in order to insinuate that hon. Ministers eat a lot of cornflakes. Where did she see them?
I need your serious ruling, Sir.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: My serious ruling on that point of order is that, perhaps, the hon. Member debating was touching on a soft spot …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: … to create a conducive environment in the House.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Assuming hon. Ministers ate cornflakes, what is wrong with that? They can afford to.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, please, hon. Member for Mafinga.
Laughter
Hon. Member: Long live, Mr Speaker.
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that, as we proclaim bumper harvests, let us also ensure that we add value to what we produce so that we create jobs and ensure that our farmers get value for their hard work. The PF is talking about creating jobs but, when I go to Pick ‘n’ Pay to do my shopping, 70 per cent of the goods on the shelves are imported. Hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, how would the jobs be created …
Hon. Member: Ba mulamu!
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member for Mafinga, please address the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry through the Speaker. I know you are facing the hon. Minister, who is from Muchinga, but the Speaker is here.
You may continue.
Laughter{mospagebreak}
Ms Namugala: Sir, the point I am making is that, if we are going to deal with the problem of unemployment in this country, then we need to add value to that which we produce and find a way of substituting the imports that are on our shelves in the supermarkets with local products. It requires very careful thinking and focus, but there is no other way of creating jobs. We need to ensure that all that is being produced locally finds its way to the market. There is no point in us importing furniture from China when Apollo Enterprises can produce good quality furniture.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I have observed that US $20 million has been allocated in this Budget to the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) to finance the private sector. What is $20 million? It is K100 billion, which is nothing. More money must be allocated so that our local entrepreneurs can have access to appropriate financing.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Currently, our women in markets are being exploited by the so-called micro-financing institutions that charge 50 to 60 per cent interest per month on money that they borrow.
Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: What is in this Budget for the woman in Soweto Market who has been selling apples or rice? We need more money to go to the local and indigenous private entrepreneurs’ development.
Mr Speaker, lastly, everything we do hinges on leadership.
Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Therefore, we need to have a committed and benevolent leadership to deliver on what the PF has propounded.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Since the PF came into power, we have seen complacency on the part of its leadership. The leadership has become so complacent that many are putting on weight while the people are waiting.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Men and women of action have now become men and women of inaction.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Even the President who was a man of action, what have you done to him? What has happened to the PF? We expected the party to roll their sleeves and hit the ground running to deliver on the promises.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, these hon. Ministers have become too comfortable in their seats, driving expensive vehicles …
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Ms Namugala: … at the expense of the people who put them in power.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Mr Mwimba. H. Malama: Kanwinepo na menshi!
Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the Motion on the Floor of the House, and …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Mweetwa: … express the views of the good people of Choma Central and the UPND.
Sir, today, my submissions are very precise. Mostly, I will just talk about that Constitution-making process, looking at the Budget and the allocation thereto. However, before I do that, I just wanted to highlight a few things, being fully aware that this Budget has been debated sufficiently on many Heads.
Mr Speaker, before I come to this year’s Budget and its theme, allow me first to address my mind to the question of whose budget it is, and whose the one presented last year by the hon. Minister of Finance, Mr Chikwanda, was.
Sir, I have heard attempts to run away from last year’s Budget by calling it an MMD Budget for a very simple reason. After proclaiming it on the Floor of this House and superintending over it, there is nothing to show for it. There is a failure to show any results. The PF people have failed in the one year they have been in Government. So, to say that it was not their budget is a scapegoat which, unfortunately, we are not willing to accept.
Sir, when that Budget was presented and there were promises made against it. They said that they were going to construct 650 health posts but, to date, I do not know where those health posts have been built. We have gone one year down the line and the life of that Budget. In that same Budget, there was an allocation made to construct and transform Choma into a provincial capital. I believe that the allocation for this project was never made by the PF, not the MMD. So, how does it become an MMD Budget?
Sir, this kind of political deception must come to an end at some point. When people have been honoured with the opportunity to lead the country, they must mean what they say so that the people who vote for us can know that politics is about service to the people and delivering according to the promises you make. You should not turn around and frown upon the promises you made because you have suddenly realised that you lack the necessary capacity to deliver on the promises you made.
Mr Speaker, the theme of this year’s Budget is ‘Delivering Inclusive Development and Social Justice.’ To me, this means putting mechanisms through the Budget to bridge the rural/urban development gap.
Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Mweetwa: In this, I expected that there would be measures and programmes that meant to foster the delivery of basic social services that our people are looking for. I thought that it was going to try and bridge the rural/urban development gap by using some of the tools that are available and mentioned in this Budget, which, among others, include the decentralisation process, rural electrification and paying attention to agriculture, particular, funding the sector in a more meaningful way.
Mr Speaker, when it comes to agriculture, many hon. Members have already debated sufficiently, but my own interest is that, in this Budget, the hon. Minister has allocated K300 billion to Food Reserve Agency (FRA) for the Farmers Input Support Programme (FISP), the same amount of money which was provided in last year’s Budget and proved not to be enough, prompting the Government to ask the FRA to go on the open market to borrow.
Mr Speaker, my interest on agriculture, really, is the marketing arrangements, that the PF Government does not appear to provide any glimmer of hope as to how this nightmare for the farmers is going to be rid of.
Sir, speaking for the beautiful people of Choma Central, I would like to inform the House that many farmers in Choma and across the country, under the PF Administration, incurred huge losses as a result of the inertia by the FRA and the PF Government to engage in buying crop from the farmers.
Mr Speaker, in Choma, most of the farmers were selling their maize at about K40 000. Those who sold highest were selling at K50 000 when the floor price is K65 000. This was as a result of the disgruntled manner in which the marketing season was launched under this PF Government. They first of all, started by making announcements that many depots were to close. The Government did not start in earnest to buy the maize on the dates that the marketing season opened. So, the farmers, in desperation ended up going to sell to brief case traders.
Sir, in Choma, the majority of the buyers were foreigners, Zimbabweans notably. On one hand, when you look at how much money the Government spends under the (Farmer Input Support Programme) FISP, subsiding farmers and not moving in quickly to buy this maize, the farmers become despotic and desperate and end up selling this maize cheaply. Inadvertently, this PF Government is subsidising the private sector and not the farmers they intended to subsidise because of their inertia to quickly move in and buy the produce.
Mr Speaker, when it comes to decentralisation, I want to join Hon. Chisala to make an earnest and humble appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) needs to be revised. K1 billion is far too little to create the necessary impact that we, on the left and you on the right of the Speaker, are looking for.
Sir, as hon. Members of Parliament, we are all agreed on this particular issue. So, we do not know where the problem is. I was wondering where the problem is so, maybe, I will ask the hon. Minister of Finance outside.
Mr Speaker, those of us with constituencies to attend to, want this CDF to be increased. Last year, we were demanding for K5 billion and we hoped this would be increased even if it was not to reach K5 billion but it should be increased to some significant level that will help us drive the developmental agenda at the local level with the participation of the local people.
Sir, further, we have seen that under this PF Government, while CDF was intended to empower the local authorities and people to participate in their developmental priorities, and effect the development themselves. On one hand, CDF is being released while on the other hand, the PF Government is opening a window to retain the administration of CDF to the Central Government.
Mr Speaker, a guideline has been issued that you cannot disburse CDF unless the CDF projects are brought back to the ministry here in Lusaka for approval. Now, if that is the way the PF wants to run this CDF, would it not be better if they just cancelled it and taken to the Local Government Minister so that he can decide the developmental priorities of these various constituencies.
Sir, I am so passionate about this topic because it is now one year since I became Member of Parliament. It took almost one whole year for us to have access to CDF, which was left for 2011. The money we are about to disburse now in Choma is CDF for 2011, for a very simple reason, that to create a CDF committee, you have to send it to Lusaka for the hon. Minister to approve names of people he or she has no idea about but he still insists that the list should be brought to Lusaka for approval.
Mr Speaker, what is the logic there? I do not see any logic myself. When it comes to the full council, it sits and identifies developmental priorities together with the local people. The hon. Minister here in Lusaka, still needs to approve the projects which he or she has no idea about. So, why send this money to the people to identify developmental priorities when at the end of the day, you are still recalling it for approval?
Sir, it has taken us more than eight months for us to reach out to the CDF, which has been lying in the bank since 2011. I think, through you Sir, this PF Government and their Local Government Minister need to get to the bottom of this and address it because I know all the hon. Members here are frustrated by this guideline.
Mr Speaker, let me also talk about the rural electrification. I have seen that there is K333.3 billion allocated to the rural electrification programme in the 2013 Budget. I would like to say that these monies have been allocated since time immemorial.
Sir, there is one thing that always perturbs me. Why is it that there is no government that is going to take particular interest to redress the suffering of the people who were displaced to pave way for the construction of the Kariba Dam for electricity generation to come about in this country.
Mr Speaker, you have a situation where you embark on a rural electrification programme and your first implementation stage is thousands of kilometres away from the people who paved way for the construction of the Kariba Dam. I think the PF has an opportunity to be able to address this issue involving these people since they still have four years unquestionable to themselves.
Sir, in the remaining seven minutes of my time to debate, let me now address the issue of the Constitution. On page twelve of the Budget, I have seen a casual mention that the Constitution process has been allocated K20 billion.
Mr Speaker, first of all, we wanted to know how much is expected to be spent on this process because we already know that, one year down the line, the technical committee has spent about K95 billion. Now, what does it mean to the people of this country when you come to this House and say you are allocating K20 billion to the Constitution-making process? Is this one of the promises that the PF are going to u-turn on again the way they have u-turned on windfall tax, the Barotseland Agreement, allowing the media to broadcast right across the breadth and width of this country and the way they have u-turned on addressing casualisation and ending up withdrawing a minister who was about to effect change in this country. Is this one of the things that the PF Government is going to do?
Sir, we are extremely concerned because the PF now, is known for one thing, which is that, you cannot trust them. Now, this issue of the Constitution, the people of this country require trust on the part of the PF because unlike, the hon. Minister who has said agriculture is the lifeblood of our people, the life blood of our people is a good Constitution because that is what is going to smoothen the operations of all the sectors of this country including agriculture.
Mr Speaker, what, then, does this K20 billion mean? Does it come to underline your inconsistency? Does it come to underline the fact that the people of this country should continue not to trust you? Are you saying you are u-turning on the Constitution? When is the Constitution coming?
Sir, the costs of not having a new Constitution are far more than the costs of having a new Constitution. These costs are as follows.
Mr Speaker, by continuing to have the current Constitution, which has undergone various constitutional reviews with no conclusion, there are many costs. To start with, we continue to have a minority President, such as President Sata, who does not command majority support and lacks moral legitimacy. This is has polarised our nation …
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious constitutional point of order. I am enjoying the hon. Member’s debate. However, is he in order to mislead this House and the entire nation by insinuating that the current President, constitutionally elected by the people of Zambia and with a very clear mandate, has no legitimacy to occupy that office?
The Deputy Chairperson: The ruling is very simple and straightforward. The Constitution provides that, for a candidate to be declared as the victor in presidential elections, that person must score the highest number of votes in relation to the other candidates who contested the Presidency. This is what we call the simple majority system; first past the post. So, to the extent that the President was elected constitutionally by scoring more than the other aspiring candidates, he was duly elected and he has the mandate of the people. That is the ruling.
The hon. Member may continue.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I am speaking from a legal point of view and I understand my friend …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Move on to another topic. The Speaker has a record of thirty-seven years at the Bar.
Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, he also understands the Constitution. However, the point here is that a ruling has been made and, therefore, there is no need to modify what you said earlier.
You may continue.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, the President of the Republic of Zambia scored 42 per cent of the votes in the last election and it is in that regard that I am stating that we have a minority President.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Unless you have other points to debate, I may be tempted to curtail your debate. The rules of the game are that, once a ruling has been made, you have to live by it. If you have other points, you may continue to debate.
Mr Mweetwa remained seated.
The Deputy Chairperson: You have the Floor, hon. Member.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, I will be very precise. The first issue I would like to look at in contributing to the Motion is on agriculture. In Chipata, the mainstay of the economy is agriculture and for the hon. Minister of Finance to have given 6 per cent of the Budget to agriculture is, in my opinion, a deformity in the Budget. Zambia should learn to appreciate the people who are creating wealth. The people who create wealth are those who actually do the work and not those who sit with pens and computers and just add margins to already created wealth. The Copperbelt and the outlying areas like Chipata in the Eastern Province are the ones creating wealth. Therefore, a good budget will be that which gives more than 6 per cent of the total Budget figure to agriculture. We feel very unjustifiably treated on this.
Mr Speaker, the second issue I would like to very quickly talk about is on the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). The agency has been linked to the economy of places like Chipata because when you give the agency money, it gives that money to us in the farming communities. Giving the agency K300 billion is yet another very serious deformity in the Budget and I would ask the hon. Minister to seriously consider increasing this figure. If the hon. Minister does not increase this figure, the financial consequences will be extremely heavy because what this Budget does not do is show us the real cost of money that the FRA will borrow. That should be looked at seriously by the hon. Minister of Finance.
Mr Speaker, the other item on the FRA is that the hon. Minister has told us that the agency will revert to its original mandate, which is basically keeping strategic reserves. At the moment, it has three other mandates; managing storage sheds, bringing standards and, of course, market information. However, the major one is that of buying strategic food reserves. If the agency only takes up this role, it means there will be a very serious void created in the marketing of grain. When I say ‘grain’, mainly I limit it to maize and other substantial crops like rice.
Mr Speaker, as Zambians, we have gone through this before when there was a void created in the agriculture sector. The calamities which befell people in farming communities were, as the former President would say, too ghastly to contemplate. We do not want the current Government to take us through that, again. This issue of taking the FRA back to its original mandate should be properly planned, otherwise there will be chaos in the marketing of crops. We saw this in the early 1990s. There was a very serious void created when the marketing of crops was taken away from the Zambia Co-operatives Federation (ZCF). I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister to seriously consider creating an institution like the ZCF which should immediately be capitalised so that it can take up the role of marketing crops. Otherwise, we will be headed for chaos in the marketing of grain.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the third issue that I would like to briefly touch on is on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). It is very disheartening that at this point in time, we, the Zambians, with such an able group in the Ministry of Agriculture, can think of broadening the FISP and disturb the already developed production of certain crops. If we are going to put money under FISP …
Interruptions
Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I hear one hon. Minister asking, “What is FISP?” Please, read.
Mr Speaker, there is no need for us to start giving agricultural inputs to people who are farming soya beans, cotton, sunflower and other crops because such crops, in terms of input supply, are already developed. Why do we want to take money into areas like that? What we should be looking at is the marketing of these crops. That is where the problem is. The production of these crops has been developed by the private sector. Immediately the Government shows its face into this, the private sector will cower down and what we will have, again, is chaos.
So, I would urge the hon. Minister to seriously reconsider this intention by the Government. Let there be more consultations with stakeholders so that we do not disturb an already developed area when we can save money by taking it into the marketing of these crops. The hon. Minister must understand that the problem with cotton, soya beans, groundnuts, sunflower and rice is the marketing, and not the production. So, let us not take money into wrong areas. This, to me, is a misplacement of our funds.
Mr Speaker, the fourth item I would like to comment on is what has been so much talked about; the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I would like to add my voice to this subject. The major thrust of the PF’s manifesto is devolution of power, and if we are going to look at that, what is wrong with using a very clean mechanism of giving power to the people through the CDF? When this money is received by the Ministry of Education, it benefits because it supports schools. The same thing happens with the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock because this money is used to grade roads leading to the markets and the Ministry of Health benefits once it receives this money by building many clinics.
Hon. Member: And bridges.
Mr Mtolo: Yes, and bridges. When the CDF is provided, it is cross-cutting. All the different sectors of the economy are assisted. In fact, it is not only cross-cutting in that area, but also politically. All of us benefit from the same. What is wrong with giving us K5 billion when it can be easily monitored?
Sir, I urge the hon. Minister of Finance to seriously revisit this issue. Why give us K1 billion? What do we do with K1 billion? It is too little an amount. Give us more money so that we use it on the projects in the various constituencies. If money is misused, arrest the hon. Members and members of the committees. It is the easiest way of managing money given to the people.
Hon. Members: It is devolution of power.
Mr Mtolo: It is devolution of power. Thank you.
Mr Speaker, the other issue I want to touch on briefly, but effectively, is the Eurobond. First of all, the euphoria we have over the bond might be short-lived because this money should be paid back. However, the good part is the manner in which it has been planned for. How I wish our whole Budget was looked at in the manner the Government looked at the Eurobond. The projects are very few and measurable. We will be able to point out to Hon. Chikwanda whether or not things are being done properly.
Sir, we need power generation, roads and rail, but I am unhappy with the access to finance. Whom are we giving access to this finance? Again, focus is mainly in urban, and not rural areas. We do not want this access to finance. How can you give money to the DBZ when it is not decentralised? It is just here in Lusaka. What we need are roads and railway lines.
Last year, Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister whispered to me and said, “Yes, I agree, Abale. There many distortions in that Budget, but it is not ours.” What about the distortions in the 2013 Budget, because it has been prepared by the PF Government? We need railway lines to be clearly defined in the same way the issue about roads has been done, such as the Link Zambia 8,000km project. It is important. The Eurobond has not been defined. Let it be clearly stated, for example, that a railway line will be constructed from Lusaka to Chongwe and Lusaka to Kalabo. In the absence of that, there is no clarity in our discussions on the Budget.
Mr Speaker, I heard, today, from the Floor of this House that there are over 3, 000 community schools, but the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education said there are 1, 750 schools. When we ask on how many of these are going to be upgraded, the answer we will get from hon. Dr Phiri should be the same as the one we would get if the question was directed to Hon. Chikwanda. Everything should be defined clearly and precisely. I think that is a budget. It is the best way of allocating our scarce resources to the various competing interests but, currently, there is a lot of darkness in the way the money has been allocated and that, to me, is a big concern.
The other issue, Sir, is on taxation in the mining sector. I do not wish to annoy Hon. Chikwanda he hates the other term. So, I will not even mention it but, whatever name, the mines can be taxed with. That is what the Zambian people are crying for.
Mr Speaker, if you look at the Budget, the amount of pay as you earn (PAYE) is higher than the amount of money we are getting from the taxes. The bowels of Zambia have this rock, but they are not going to have it forever. Let us tax the people getting this mineral from our bowels here in Zambia because it is a wasting asset. When all these minerals are taken to, say, Switzerland and China, at least, we can have something to talk about. As it is, the tax rate is very low and we need to change it. I will not talk about that term you do not like which causes you to refer to us as those who are close to the moon. However, we need to increase our tax on minerals.
Laughter
Mr Mtolo: The other issue I would like to talk about is the disbursement of cash to ministries. We are getting the CDF in October when we budgeted for it a long time ago. Are we putting the tax collection benchmarks that are so high for ourselves that we do not release money at the right time? Why should we fail to fund ministries at the right time?
Sir, I have visited a number of schools in my constituency and most of them have not been given their grants. Why is it so when these grants were actually budgeted for? Why should hon. Cabinet Ministers suffer so much at the hands of the people in their ministries because money not being disbursed? What is the problem? What is this Budget for if funds cannot be released to the ministries?
Mr Speaker, I can see Hon. Chikwanda scratching his head. I hope he is searching for an answer.
Laughter
Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I also want to raise a general concern on the Zambia Public Procurement Agency (ZPPA). The ZPPA will just have an oversight function according to this Budget. Are we sure that the many departments and ministries have the capacity to procure on their own? If we are not careful, we are going to have many people in prison because of this simple decision we are going to pass here. What is wrong with the ZPPA in its current form? How can we give billions of kwacha to the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock to procure fertiliser? I would like us to monitor and, maybe, re-examine the issue of turning the ZPPA into a mere oversight institution.
Mr Speaker, I would also like to talk about governance. We saw what happened this morning when the hon. Minister of Home Affairs was delivering his ministerial statement in the House. How can we expect to have peace and hon. Members on your left to co-operate fully when 80 per cent of them have unnecessary cases in the courts of law, especially the petitions over elections? What type of governance is that? That might be a party policy, but it is being reflected in the Budget because there is a provision for by-elections.
Sir, there is a notorious party policy that every member of the MMD who won an election will be petitioned. What type of governance is that? How can Hon. Chikwanda support that? Those things should be stopped. You have a very angry lot in here because of simple policies being made in our clubs called parties.
Mr Speaker, I would like the Government to seriously look at issues of governance, such as unnecessary petitions and the administration of Public Order Act. They should not be grossed over.
Sir, I would also like to talk about an effective Budget. Let us strengthen the legal framework. For example, in China, if you are corrupt, you are arrested, shot dead and …
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
(Debate adjourned)
__________________
The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 30th October, 2012.