Friday, 1^st November, 2019

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

_______

 

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

 

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

 

Mr Speaker: I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of Her Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other national duties, the Government Chief Whip, Hon. Brian Mundubile, MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House from today, Friday, 1^st November, 2019, until further notice. In this regard, Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time appearing on the Order Paper for today will not take place.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

PREVENTION AND RESPONSE TO SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND EXPLOITATION WORKSHOP

 

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that the National Assembly of Zambia, in partnership with Oxfam Zambia, will conduct an awareness workshop for all hon. Members of Parliament. The purpose of the workshop is to raise awareness on safeguarding, a subject that seeks to prevent and respond to sexual violence and exploitation. The workshop will be conducted on Tuesday, 5^th and Wednesday, 6^th November, 2019, at the Media Centre, from 0830 hours to 1230 hours on each day. For purposes of convenience, hon. Members have been divided into two groups. The first group will attend the workshop on Tuesday, 5^th November, 2019, while the second one will attend on Wednesday, 6^th November, 2019. Hon. Members will be notified on the specific days they will be expected to attend. In this regard, I implore all the hon. Members to attend the workshop on their respective allotted day. I urge all the hon. Members to attend this important training.

 

I thank you.

 

_______

 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

 

The Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mundubile): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House an indication of the business it will consider next week.

 

Sir, on Tuesday, 5^th November, 2019, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. That will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

 

1. Head 11 – Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs; and
2. Head 30 – Zambia Correctional Service.

 

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday 6^th November, 2019, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. That will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

 

1. Head 12 – Office of the Public Protector; and
2. Head 44 – Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

 

Sir, on Thursday, 7^th November, 2019, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer. That will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

 

1. Head 15 – Ministry of Home Affairs; and
2. Head 16 – Drug Enforcement Commission.

 

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 8^th November, 2019, the Business of the House will begin with the Vice-President’s Question Time. That will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will consider Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply to consider Estimates of Expenditure for Head 32 – Ministry of Religious Affairs and National Guidance.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

_______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

CONSTRUCTION OF MINI-WATER TREATMENT PLANTS IN LUAPULA

 

46. Mrs Kabanshi (Luapula) asked the Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection:

 

1. when the construction of mini-water treatment plants in Luapula Parliamentary Constituency will commence;
2. what has caused the delay in commencing the project;
3. who the contractor for the project is; and
4. what the timeframe for the completion of the project is.

 

The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Mwale) (on behalf of the Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection (Dr Wanchinga)): Mr Speaker, the construction of the mini-water treatment plants in Luapula Constituency commenced in August 2019. So far, the project stands at 50 per cent and the contractor is on site working.

 

Sir, the delay in the commencement of the works was caused by the delayed release of funds towards the advance payment to the contractors. The contractors have since been paid and are on site.

 

Mr Speaker, the two contractors for the project are Windcare Zambia Limited and Andrich Freight Company Limited.

 

Sir, the timeframe for the completion of the project is eighteen months.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, the people of Lunga have been waiting for this project for a very long time and it is only the Patriotic Front (PF) Government that has started it. Does the ministry plan to take such services to other areas because this project is only being implemented on one island and Lunga comprises of nineteen islands?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the Government intends to do that and will ensure that everyone in the country has access to clean water, particularly the people of Lunga. So far, we hear people are very happy and the project is going on well. Once we complete it, and funds permitting, we intend to implement similar projects in the eighteen islands the hon. Member referred to.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: The last two interventions will be from the hon. Member for Zambezi East and the hon. Member for Mufulira, in that order.

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, in response to the question asked by the hon. Member for Luapula Constituency, the hon. Minister affirmed that the project is underway. I am glad that the people of Luapula Constituency will have water treatment plants, as the hon. Minister has indicated. However, will that kind of project only be implemented in Luapula? What is there for us in Zambezi East?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the ministry is implementing so many projects in many different areas. Today, I focused on Lunga and Luapula because the question was asked by the hon. Member for Luapula. I encourage the hon. Member for Zambezi East to file a question particularly for Zambezi so I can come back with well-informed answers and talk about what the ministry has in the pipeline, what is currently happening or what it plans to do in future. I can address all those things, but today, we were discussing about Lunga, and that is why I have a good response for it. Indeed, the people of Lunga are very happy and their good hon. Member of Parliament has been pushing that project.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister able to tell the people of Lunga and the nation at large whether the funding for the project was absolutely met by the Zambian Government or did our co-operating partners put in a hand? Further, what is the cost of the project?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the cost of the project is K9.6 million and the Government has so far paid the contractors K2.4 million. The contractors have done very well and have gone ahead with the project. The project is now at 50 per cent, even though the contractors only received an advance payment. It is funded by the Treasury and is not a donor-funded project. Let me assure the people of Lunga that the hon. Minister of Finance is looking for the balance so he can pay the contractors, so that the works are not disrupted. The Ministry of Finance has been very kind and that is why it released an advance payment of K2.4 million.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

_______

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

VOTE 18 – (Judiciary – K516,346,304)

 

(Consideration resumed)

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Chairperson, I am grateful that today I will finish the job I started yesterday. For those in doubt, I repeat that I am a very senior member of the bar and a learned counsel, one of the few learned lawyers in this Chamber.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is very clear that the people of Zambia who have been debating on the Floor of this House do not seem to realise what the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has done in the Judiciary. It is only under the leadership of Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu that a number of courts came into play. Currently, when one has a complaint, he does not have to wait for eleven years for his judgement because the PF has created a number of courts. Apart from the High Court and the Supreme Court, we now have the Court of Appeal and the Constitutional Court. For the first time since independence, we have a President who has a legal mind and has actually been looking at issues the way they should be looked at.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is only under Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu that for the first time, there are researchers in the Judiciary. Our judges are now able to deliver judgments on time because there are people helping them research, look at different aspects of the law and arrive at good decisions. In addition, under the leadership of Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, people cannot be as mischievous as they used to be. In the past, people used to be very mischievous. They could go to the registry, pull out a file, run away and hide it in their village in Pemba or Chikankata and think that the case is closed. However, under the PF Government, there is an electronic version of every document. Even if you run away with the actual file and hide it in Monze Central, the Judiciary is able to reconstruct your file.

 

Mr Mwiimbu interjected.

 

The Chairperson: Order! You can also include Chama on that list, and speak through the Chair.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, we are aware that the Judiciary has received a lot of support from the PF Government. We also know that it is only those people who do not understand how the courts operate who end up castigating the Judiciary.

 

Madam Chairperson, by the way, allow me to congratulate this House, the Attorney-General and His Excellency the President of Zambia for their victory against the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) in the Constitutional Court. I am sure the victory is for the people of Zambia and those who want our laws to be very clear. We saw how people cried about the fourteen days, and we can realign the laws. However, the same Judiciary that some people insult when they lose cases is supposed to be supported.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is very difficult for people who do not appreciate the Judiciary to see anything good in it, but everybody runs to it regardless of which political party they belong to. When some people are squeezed even a little, they run to the Judiciary. I know this because we meet in the corridors. So, we must support the Judiciary at all costs. Whether one is in the Opposition or the ruling party, the Judiciary must be left to be independent. You will never hear of the Judiciary being instructed what to do like we saw in some alternative budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, the people who own the forty-eight houses and their uncles – the people who sold the Lower Zambezi for US$14 million are threatening the hon. Minister for Eastern Province with a lawsuit using the Judiciary. So, why not support the organ that we have been abusing in instances when it is not even necessary to sue.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Resume your seats, both of you. Mr Ngulube, you are a senior lawyer, as you stated yourself. Therefore, you must exhibit that through your debate by debating in support of this important body and indicating its elements that are not only important to the hon. Members of this House but the public.

 

The hon. Member on my left, who is also a senior lawyer, wants to raise a point of order. Let us have order in the House, but my counsel is more to the hon. Member on the Floor. Use this time to debate in support of the Judiciary as an officer of the court yourself. Proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that the Judiciary in Zambia is very independent and people respect it.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: I have just counselled.

 

Mr Mwiimbu, do you still want to raise a point of order?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngulube: Under which Standing Order?

 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, it is a settled practice, and matter of law and regulation on the Floor of this House that we cannot use innuendos when debating but must be factual. I would like you to take judicial notice that the issue the hon. Member on the Floor raised about the US$14 million was raised by the Patriotic Front (PF) through the hon. Minister for Eastern Province. Is he in order to talk about issues that are not factual on the Floor of this House? Further, is it possible for an individual to sell a national park in this country, when there is a Government in place?

 

Madam Chairperson, I seek your ruling.

 

The Chairperson: The hon. Member on the Floor will take that point of order into account as he debates. He may proceed.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to clarify. A Zambian, whose name I will not mention, always runs away from the things he does. That individual whom I have not mentioned received US$14 million from selling rights in the Lower Zambezi. He is the same man who was involved in privatisation, but still refuses that he never did anything wrong. I do not know when he will admit that he wronged the people of Zambia. However, I do not want to debate that issue because as far as we are concerned, the culprit is known.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me get back to the Judiciary.

 

Evg. Shabula: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Mr Ngulube: Under the PF Government, the Judiciary has made a lot of strides.

 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 

Evg. Shabula: Madam Chairperson, this is a House of facts. I would like to find out from you whether the hon. Member who is debating has facts to lay on the Table this morning, to the effect that the person who was involved in privatisation is the same one involved in the US$14 million?

 

Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we need to observe the rules. Some of these matters are matter that should be discussed outside this House where you can engage without necessarily having to bring them to this House in debates. However, the hon. Member on the Floor has not mentioned any individual. Had he done so, I would have stopped him. To the extent that he has not mentioned any individual, he is in order. He will proceed with his debate but must focus on the Vote under debate, which is the Judiciary.

 

Mr Ngulube, please, proceed.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, in the Northern and Luapula provinces, they say, “imbila yamumushi tabayasukila,” meaning –

 

The Chairperson: Just proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, allow me to interpret that saying. It means that the guilty are always afraid.

 

Madam Chairperson, I was saying that under the PF, the Judiciary has made a lot of strides, and one of them includes payments. When one wants to make a payment at the Judiciary, he/she is able to swipe, which is a very good move. Previously, staff in the Judiciary would receive money for the courts but not bank it on time, and would sometimes enrich themselves. So, that is one of the strides that has been made under the able leadership of the Chief Justice, Madam Irene Mambilima, and if one has never heard of her, then, maybe, he/she does not live in Zambia. Further, the Judiciary is now monitoring progress of all its cases using the Case Management System, and magistrates and judges now file in what they call returns. So, the tendency of some people ‘sleeping’ on other people’s cases for years has come to an end.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Zambian Judiciary is feared because it is revered. It is one of the most credible institutions we can ever have and it does not exhibit any political affiliation. So, hon. Members of Parliament or members of the public who think that the Judiciary must join their fights must be reminded that in the Eastern Province, we say ndeo yabene sibavulila jacket. This means that you cannot join another man’s fight and even remove your jacket because you want to fight. The Judiciary in Zambia cannot remove its jacket to start fighting other people’s battles.

 

Madam Chairperson, regardless of where one comes from, if he/she does not know how to read the fourteen days, he/she will be told that fourteen days is fourteen days. Whether one is using a professional organisation to fight a legal battle or the Constitution, the Judiciary will tell him/her that it cannot give an injunction on this matter. Even when one gets stuck to an extent where he/she wants the person he/she sued to become his/her witness in court, the Judiciary will say that he/she cannot do that. Even if one is a paralegal but wants to pretend that he/she is a senior counsel, the Judiciary will guide him/her that he/she is misleading the people. That is the beauty of the Zambian Judiciary.

 

Madam Chairperson, there is a matter that was recently before the Judiciary, and this is the issue of the Lower Zambezi. A company under which an individual has been hiding for many years decided to sell a national park and he gave people an impression that he had nothing to do with that issue. The documents are on the website. In fact, if you are a genuine and clean businessman who has not snitched money from other people using dubious means, why would you go and hide money in Panama or Bahamas, yet we have Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO), Indo Zambia Bank Limited and National Savings and Credit Bank (NATSAVE).

 

Madam Chairperson, a man who uses a phone worth K50, and pretends to be poor, is one of the richest people. He sold our hotels and bought some of them. He sold a lot of things and it is very clear that regardless of what he wants to do today, the people of Zambia are aware that he had a hand in the Lower Zambezi and –

 

Hon. UPND Members: Foreigner!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order in the House!

 

Resume your seat, Mr Ngulube.

 

Mr Mwiimbu interjected.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order on my left!

 

Hon. UPND Members: He is a Rwandese!

 

Mr Mwiinga: Go back to Rwanda, banyamulenge! You have been recalled!

 

The Chairperson: Order! It looks like you all passed through the coffee shop …

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: … upstairs.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Not us!

 

The Chairperson: It is actually downstairs.

 

Let us have order in the House!

 

Hon. Member on the Floor, please, focus your debate on the Vote of the Judiciary. You seem to be having a cross country debate and going in all directions. Please, focus and proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Kambita: This chap from Rwanda! Awe! Go to Rwanda!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, the Judiciary has dealt with the matter that was before it, which is very clear. Zambians who hide behind closed doors and want to pretend that they are poor will always be brought out.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Pay back!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, let me state that the Judiciary is currently dealing with a backlog of cases. It constituted a team that is handling cases that were left by the judges who died or retired so that the people of Zambia can get their judgments. However, the Judiciary cannot operate freely if some individuals pretend to be Zambians, …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Like yourself!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Ngulube: …yet in actual fact hide their wealth in Panama.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Nyamulenge!

 

Mr Ngulube: For the benefit of those who are doubting –

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order, Mr Ngulube!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Nyamulenge!

 

The Chairperson: Order on my left!

 

Mr Ngulube, you were about to conclude. Can you conclude.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, allow me to conclude by stating that those Zambians who pretend to be poor, yet hide their riches abroad will never see the corridors of power. Let me also state that those who believe and think that the people of Zambia are sleeping should know that we are not sleeping. The Judiciary is there for those who think they can intimidate others and sue –

 

Hon. UPND Members: Are you a Zambian?

 

Mr Ngulube: Go to the Judiciary and it will deal with your situation.

 

Madam Chairperson, an individual is failing to sleep properly because it looks like the people are discovering his mistakes and long fingers. If it is true that he is being accused of things he has not done, he should deny it himself and not use the people in this House to deny them on his behalf. He went on radio and Prime Television yesterday …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Who?

 

Mr Ngulube: … so why did he not deny that he had no hand in everything that he is being accused of?

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Ngulube: Why does he not go and deny –

 

The Chairperson: Mr Ngulube, resume your seat!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order! Order in the House!

 

Are you done, Mr Ngulube?

 

Mr Ngulube: No, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: You may proceed!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to say that the Judiciary of Zambia will continue receiving the full support of the PF Government and those who are stealing from the people of Zambia will not go to State House.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: The word ‘stealing’ is unparliamentary. Withdraw it.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word ‘stealing’ and replace it with people with long fingers will never go to State House.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Pay back the money!

 

Mr Samakayi: Pay back the money, you thieves!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Mr Mwiimbu!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Hammer, hammer!

 

The Chairperson: Resume your seat, Mr Mwiimbu.

 

Let me secure some order.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order in the House!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, you may proceed.

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote for the Judiciary. First and foremost, I would like to state that I support the Vote for this institution. As I do so, I congratulate the Judiciary for being very forthright on behalf of the people of Zambia by instructing those who served illegally as hon. Ministers to return the money they abused on behalf of the people of Zambia.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the people of Zambia want their money. They do not want those with long fingers …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … to continue keeping their money and they should return it immediately. We are also aware that some people’s practicing licences were withdrawn by the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) and they are leaders in this country, and have continued –

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Resume your seat, Mr Mwiimbu. I will not allow that kind of cheering in this House. You cannot conduct yourselves in such a manner. You know how you show support and not that kind of misconduct. I need order in the House.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, you may proceed.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we urge the Judiciary to expedite cases of foreigners from a country in the Great Lakes Region, and masquerading as leaders in this country, so that they should go back where they came from.

 

Dr Kopulande: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we are also aware –

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order in the House! Resume your seat, Mr Mwiimbu. Resume your seat, Dr Kopulande as well.

 

Hon. Members, this is a dignified House. We are all leaders and people look up to us. This is not the kind of conduct that is expected of leaders. Hon. Members on both sides of the House, we can do better than this.

 

Dr Kopulande, do you want to raise a point of order?

 

Dr Kopulande: Yes, Madam Chairperson.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am not in the habit of raising points of order, but only do so when I believe a matter is very serious. When the hon. Leader of the Opposition was debating, he stated that foreigners in this country must go back to countries where they came from. We are aware that such sentiments led to xenophobia in South Africa and have been known to create mayhem, calamities and wars that have never ended over centuries. Therefore, is the hon. Leader of the Opposition in order to utter statements on the Floor of this House that may lead to a feeling of negativity against people from other countries who are living safely and peacefully in this country?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Is that what I said?

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

The hon. Member for Chembe has asked the Chair to rule. He has not asked anyone else to rule. The hon. Member for Chembe has raised a point of order as to whether or not the hon. Member on the Floor, Mr Mwiimbu, is in order to refer to foreigners in this country in a way that could lead to xenophobic attacks on them. As we all know, we must all work hard to promote peace and unity. Zambia has for many years hosted many people who come from other countries to seek refuge here. We have gone further to open up to foreign direct investments in our country. In that regard, we must always conduct ourselves in a manner that promotes peace and makes foreigners in this country feel they are part and parcel of our nation called Zambia. In that regard, the hon. Leader of the Opposition is certainly out of order.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order hon. Members on my right!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, I urge you to debate in a constructive manner, as you always do, and to focus on the Judiciary. You may proceed.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, if that was the understanding, I apologise. The point I was making is that the Judiciary must speed up matters in court questioning the nationality of those pretending to be leaders in this country because Zambians do not want to be led by foreigners. I never talked about other foreigners. No!

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to respond to the issue of the Lower Zambezi National Park that was raised. I am so shocked to realise that the Zambian Government under the Patriotic Front (PF) is so incompetent that it can allow an individual to usurp its power and sell a park when it is seated there ndwii without knowing what it is supposed to be doing.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Ndwii!

 

The Chairperson: Order! I am just about to send a few people out of this House.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, you may proceed.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, it is a question of law –

 

The Chairperson: The official language is English. What is ndwii?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, ndwii means sitting ignorantly not knowing what to do.

 

Madam Chairperson, the authority to grant an exploration licence in any part of Zambia lies with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, and the exploration licence in the Lower Zambezi was given by this ministry. Further, when exploration is completed –

 

Mr Mukosa: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: A point or order is raised.

 

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to rise on a very important point of order. I want to find out from you whether the hon. Member on the Floor is in order to career off the topic at hand regarding the Judiciary, and to start discussing the Lower Zambezi and how mining licences are issued?

 

Madam Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I am responding.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chinsali, you will recall that when the Deputy Government Chief Whip was on the Floor, he insisted and wanted to debate that same issue. The hon. Leader of the Opposition is trying to address the issues raised by the Deputy Government Chief Whip. However, let me guide him as I guided the Deputy Government Chief Whip. We have a Vote under discussion and we should focus on it. I will allow the hon. Leader of the Opposition to proceed and respond to the issues raised by the Deputy Government Chief Whip, but beyond that, he has to come back to the Vote under discussion.

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you may proceed.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, as I had indicated, I am merely responding to the issue that was raised. Once an exploration licence is given –

 

Mr Musukwa: On a point of order, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order?

 

The Chairperson: No, on your debate. It is a second point of order.

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you are part of the management of the House and you should help in managing it. Another point of order is raised.

 

Mr Musukwa: Madam Chairperson, I rarely raise points of order. I rise on this point of order as regards the matter being addressed by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, who I know has immense experience in terms of parliamentary etiquette and discussion. Is the hon. Leader of the Opposition in order to insinuate that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development who is, indeed, responsible for issuing exploration and mining licences is sitting in this House ndwii, as he calls it?

 

Madam Chairperson, he is aware that the matter under discussion is active and is being addressed by the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts and other stakeholders. If I wanted to postulate the way he is doing, I could have gone to town on this issue but because of the respect I have for him, I will not do so. Is the hon. Leader of the Opposition in order to mislead the House and the nation when I know that he is able to debate the Vote of the Judiciary without bringing other factors that do not affect my ministry? Is he in order to postulate in that manner? I seek your serious ruling in order to ensure that we bring back sanity to this House especially that he is part of the management that brings sanity to it.

 

The Chairperson: I will use that point of order to guide the House. The kind of debate that has been exhibited in the recent past is very disappointing because the people of Zambia expect us to discuss policy and the budget provisions for their benefit. However, we are instead using every opportunity to politic thereby wasting very good time meant to serve the people of Zambia. When I talk about using this time unproductively, this goes to the main political parties, the Patriotic Front (PF) and the United Party for National Development (UPND). The two political parties in this House are missing out on the opportunity to speak for the people of Zambia. They are using this House to score political goals against each other and in turn bringing down the dignity of this very honourable House that eminent men and women have gone through. We owe it to our people to represent and speak for them, especially at a time when we are discussing this important budget. I expect dignified debate from both sides of the House. The hon. Leader of the Opposition will proceed and exhibit just that.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I would like to strictly adhere to your advice by insisting and stating that the responsibility to manage mining in this country lies squarely with the Government. The Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development grants a mining licence and not an individual unless that individual is bigger than the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, then, it can be done. Further, the decision to allow mining in the Lower Zambezi was made by the PF Government during a cabinet meeting, and that is a fact. Having responded to that issue, I will veer off from it.

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, resume your seat. Mr Ngulube, resume your seat as well.

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you are not part of the Cabinet unless you have evidence that that issue was discussed in Cabinet. However, I would like you to withdraw that statement.

 

Mr Ngulube interjected.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Deputy Government Chief Whip, I am really restraining myself from sending you out of the House. Help me not to do that.

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you may proceed.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the evidence is in the public domain. They are now accusing the former Minister –

 

The Chairperson: Order! Resume your seat.

 

According to our constitutional provisions, the Cabinet is constituted of Cabinet Ministers and the President and what they discuss remains a secret, unless they themselves inform the nation. You have just made reference to a decision that the Cabinet made and I urged that if you do not have evidence that it discussed that, you withdraw that. That is all. Then you can proceed to debate the Vote.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I will not withdraw that statement but will substantiate what I said. The Committee –

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, resume your seat.

 

Prof. Luo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I want your protection.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock, resume your seat.

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you know the rules. If the Chair asks you to withdraw what you said because you do not have evidence, the only way you can avoid withdrawing that is to lay a document on the Table if you have it. If you do not have it, you can ask for time or another opportunity to bring that evidence to the House, but in the meantime, veer off from that. Those are the rules.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, you have not asked me whether I have the evidence.

 

The Chairperson: Alright. Do you have it?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, what I am saying is that –

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Listen. What do you want me to do? You have asked me – I want to adduce evidence.

 

The Chairperson: Mr Mwiimbu, resume your seat. I want to help you.

 

Hon. Members on my right, I have guided the hon. Leader of the Opposition and he knows the rules. He is about to indicate whether or not he has the evidence. If he does not, he knows what to do. He will veer off and ask for another time to bring the evidence.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order on my right!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, in the absence of the evidence, you will not debate that matter.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Which matter now?

 

The Chairperson: Where you stated that the Cabinet made a resolution. You may proceed.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, there was a report by hon. Mr Speaker that we debated on the Floor of this House in 2014 and it was adopted by this House and that is the evidence, unless we are saying that the hon. Mr Speaker’s report is fake. If it is not fake, it is there and it is judicial notice that all of us got it because it was circulated. We read and approved it on the Floor of this House, and that is the evidence I have. I would like you, Madam Chairperson, to take judicial notice that your office has this report that was adopted by this House.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Sichone: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Sichone, resume your seat.

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, the issue of you stating that the Cabinet made a resolution is now causing the interruptions. We all know that Cabinet meetings are a secret, including the resolutions that are made, unless hon. Cabinet Members themselves inform the public.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order on my left!

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you have cited a report of a Committee as being the source of the information. I still want you to withdraw the statement that the Cabinet made a resolution. You said it was published in 2014 but cite the Committee. You can say the Committee’s report of a particular year and you can name that Committee of Mr Speaker. However, I want you to withdraw that reference to the Cabinet.

 

You may proceed.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, with that ruling, I withdraw that statement and say that the hon. Ministers came to the Committee and testified as to what transpired in that Cabinet meeting.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Prof. Luo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I have concluded my debate.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mwiimbu, have you ended your debate?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Justice, wind up debate.

 

Mr Mwiimbu left the Assembly Chamber.

 

Interruptions

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Madam Chairperson, I would like you to take notice of the fact that all the hon. Members from the United Party for National Development (UPND) who debated this Vote have chosen to leave the House after you asked me to respond to their debate. I would also like to remind you that that is not unusual. It has become a tradition by some hon. Members to take advantage of the opportunity they are given to debate, to raise matters they are fully aware can be responded to and dispelled. I am, however, comforted by the fact that wherever they are, they shall listen.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me start with Hon. Mweetwa’s debate. Hon. Mweetwa talked about the separation of power between the Judiciary and the Executive. In arguing that point, he said that there is no autonomy simply because the budget for the Judiciary is presented by the hon. Minister of Justice. If ever God gives Hon. Mweetwa an opportunity to serve in any Government, he will realise that the mere official presentation of the budget does not affect the operations of the entity. The Judiciary in Zambia is autonomous. Hon. Mweetwa also argued that the perceived lack of autonomy is because of the statements that have been made, and he referred to a story that occurred two years ago. I was hoping he would give a recent example indicating that the Judiciary is not autonomous but he chose to speak to a sick story. To actually call it sick is underestimating it. He referred to a dead story, clearly showing that he wished to just stand and present views that are based on innuendo, much more than fact.

 

Madam Chairperson, I was very perturbed to hear an hon. Member of this House who at one stage took over as Chairperson of the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC) from me say there is theft of exhibits in the Judiciary because of the poor emoluments for its members. For a person who has postured as a champion in the fight against corruption to say that, and especially a person who calls himself a senior hon. Member of this House, it creates anxiety for me and I am sure for many Zambians. Should anyone claim that poverty is a licence for theft? Should anybody in this House claim that because of poor conditions of service, therefore, people are corrupt? Is Hon. Mweetwa not aware of the fact that there are people who are extremely wealthy who are still corrupt?

 

Madam Chairperson, you may have listened to a debate that was totally unnecessary this morning, over the Lower Zambezi. It had nothing to do with the Judiciary, but what we were talking about was immorality. Immorality is not created by poverty. Immorality for some people is engrained in their nervous system or Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA).

 

Laughter

 

Madam Chairperson, people who are corrupt are greedy to the core. Whether they are given the whole world, they will still look for another world because they will not be satisfied with the wealth of the world. Those are the ones who are corrupt. For someone to make it appear and generalise that people in the Judiciary are corrupt because of the poor conditions of service is demeaning this very important institution. On behalf of the Judiciary, I apologise for such callous debate in this House. We should use this House to build and not to destroy.

 

The Chairperson: Withdraw the word ‘callous’.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw it and replace it with careless or reckless debate. We should use this House to unite this country and not divide it. The Judiciary is not here to represent itself and some people are saying, ‘wakalipa chani’ or why are you annoyed? Let me say that I am extremely upset that we have hon. Members of Parliament who do not realise that this is the people’s Parliament and the people are listening. Therefore, using this House for cheap unwarranted propaganda against an institution that cannot defend itself is uncalled for. I would not be this upset if it was the Executive that was being attacked because we are here and can defend ourselves. Unfortunately, the Judiciary is not here to defend itself.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Member for Choma Central, Hon. Mweetwa, bemoaned the state of infrastructure in the country, and that is exactly what I said in my statement. I said that the Judiciary is concerned about the lack of adequate infrastructure for it to dispense off cases timelessly. However, for the record and I know that wherever Hon. Cornelius Mweetwa is his listening so that he may go and inform the people in Choma, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has established an unprecedented number of local courts across the country. In the short time that we have been in Government, eighteen local courts have been constructed. There are three courts on the Copperbelt and Southern provinces respectively, and the number goes on. He also called himself a senior hon. Member of Parliament and an officer of the court. Sometimes when I listen to the debates of those who call themselves senior, and being senior myself, I feel embarrassed that senior people can mislead the House the way they do.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, respond to the issues raised. Do not debate individuals in that manner. Deal with the issues they raised. You may proceed.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, you know that I belong to a party that is very loyal and follows your guidance and rulings. I take heed of your guidance, but let me say that senior hon. Members of this House who are so concerned about the Judiciary and have received more than ten Constituency Development Fund (CDF) allocations, would have at least pointed out that they are concerned about the Judiciary and that using their own efforts and the CDF, they built one local court in their constituencies. I would like to ask those self-proclaimed senior hon. Members how many local courts they have built during the long time they have served this country. Since I have respect for the Judiciary and the people of Kabwata Constituency, in the first term or the first five years, I ensured that there was a local court built for the people. So, those who want to poster to be experienced and aspire to call themselves experienced in future, the time is now. They should use the money where it matters the most. If they are concerned about the Judiciary, like we are in the PF Government, they should use part of the CDF to build local courts.

 

Madam Chairperson, when Hon. Miyutu was debating, like you heard, he did not talk about the Judiciary, but the Ministry of Home Affairs and how juveniles are supposed to be handled in reformatories. For the sake of time, I will refer that matter to the competent hon. Minister of Home Affairs. I am sure when he debates, he will respond to that issue. However, Madam Chairperson, you must continue guiding us. When we ask for the Floor, we must read the Order Paper and know what we are debating about. It is not a licence that when we are allowed to debate, we should talk about anything and everything because, then, we lose focus. We should be focused. So, Hon. Miyutu should go and polish his debate so that he can come and present it when we discuss the Vote of the Ministry of Home Affairs. As Minister responsible for justice whose representing the Judiciary, I think I will spend no breathe to respond to that matter.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank Hon. Ngulube and, at least, I listened to three members of the court. From the three, one of them seems to be following what is happening in an institution he is a member of. There has been a lot of mordenisation in the Judiciary. Yesterday, I reported that about 193,000 documents were scanned and computerised in a short period of time, less than the seven years the PF has been in the Government. Surely, for a member of the court to say that he does not see the developments taking place in the Judiciary leaves a lot to be desired. Hon. Ngulube was right. The Judiciary is working hard at reducing the backlog of cases. I also indicated that in September this year, my lady the Chief Justice signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to introduce case management software from CasePRO and they intend to do that in 2020. I suppose that the senior counsel in Zambia will be happy to hear this. Instead of pouring scorn on the Judiciary, we should be commending it for the work it is doing.

 

Madam Chairperson, indeed, we have increased the number of researchers, and again it is thanks to this House, but it seems like when a Bill is presented, some people do not even take time to think about what it is all about. I brought a Bill to this House to amend the law and ensure that the Judiciary employs more research assistants, and that is what we have done. It is a fallacy for anyone to say we are not increasing the number of officers in the Judiciary because the truth of the matter is that we have increased them and will continue increasing them. I also indicated that in 2020, the Judiciary intends to build capacity among its research officers and court clerks and this is aimed at improving the delivery of justice in the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I commend Hon. Mwiimbu for once in a while congratulating the Judiciary. He congratulated the Judiciary only for one ruling that he referred to as the ruling on a matter of hon. Ministers staying in office. How I wish in congratulating the Judiciary, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu could also go to his clients and tell them that now that they have seen that the Judiciary is also capable of coming up with judgments against the Executive, could they withdraw all the bad words they used against the Judges when they made judgments against us. Had he been honourable enough, he would have done that. I hope that in his heart of hearts, he knows that congratulating the Judiciary because of one judgment that suits his desires, without apologising for the many times his clients called Judges in Zambia all sorts of names, is not good. The House will recall that soon after the 2016 presidential petition, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu’s clients called the Judges in the Judiciary thieves in wigs.

 

Madam Chairperson, the next time Hon. Jack Mwiimbu speaks about justice and the Judiciary, he should withdraw the insults on behalf of his clients because it has now been laid bare that the Judiciary in Zambia is under no one’s control. I am sure that had the Judges come up with a different determination on that matter, today, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu would not have congratulated them. However, I have said this before that being a Judge in Zambia is a very lonely position. He/she is damned if he/she rules one way and damned if he/she rules the other way, especially when we have an Opposition led by a person like my friend –

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Lubinda, not that direction. Let us not debate individuals. You may proceed.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the Judges in Zambia lead very difficult lives because they are only praised when they hand out a judgment that suits the people represented by lawyers who are selective. However, I am happy to state that the selection of Judges in Zambia is a very rigorous process. So far, many Zambians have a lot of respect for members of the Judiciary. I appeal to all of us in this House to continue upholding the decorum of the Judiciary because that is the only repository of our justice system. If we go about creating innuendos against it, we will destroy a very important institution of arbitration.

 

Madam Chairperson, what a waste of time because I was really eager to hear many good ideas from hon. Members on the Judiciary. Unfortunately, we lost the opportunity because as clearly demonstrated this morning, whereas we on the right listen when you guide, when you guide others, they engage you and challenge every ruling you make. You might have realised that five minutes was spent in a diatribe between the Chair and the debater and because of that, the Zambian people lost an opportunity to gain from the wisdom that exists in this House on how the Judiciary should be run. I, therefore, appeal to all my hon. Colleagues that even though they may not have had the opportunity to debate, although they had indicated to do so, they should support the Judiciary by passing its budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me end by saying that, as hon. Members of Parliament, we must not deceive the people that we have no responsibility on the management of the budget because we do. The budget has been presented here as a proposal by the Executive for the National Assembly to adopt it. Records will show that when we had an Opposition on the other side, the budget would be amended on the Floor of the House. So, those who strongly feel that the Judiciary does not have sufficient resources should look at the budget and see where we can trim down so that we can add more money to the Judiciary. That is what a responsible Opposition does. It does not just lament. A responsible Opposition looks at the budget and sees where the defects in the budget are and how we can ensure that an area of priority is given more resources. This has been done before and it shall be done in the future. However, it was done during the time there was a real Opposition and it shall only be done when there is a real Opposition. I appeal to the House –

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Lubinda, it is not your role to grade the Opposition. You said you were concluding. Please, conclude.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, maybe I should say that my hon. Colleagues who have seen that the Judiciary has not been allocated sufficient resources, should not sit there ndwii, borrowing the words of the hon. Leader of the Opposition. They should amend the budget. If they come up with good reasons, the people on the right will accept their amendments.

 

The Chairperson: What does “ndwii” mean?

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, according to the definition that was given, ‘ndwii’ means sitting ignorantly doing totally nothing. Let me add to that. They should not just stand up and appear as though they are wiser than the people on the right, yet they have the opportunity in this House to show their wisdom by going though the budget and proposing changes. They should not just talk without doing anything. Talk without action is useless and is the same as ndwii.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me end by urging my dear colleagues, including those who ran away from my response, to please come back and support the passage of the budget for the Judiciary. I hope that somebody will move an amendment to ensure that more money is presented to the Judiciary. To only talk without action is to be an inappropriate debater. You are a ndwii hon. Member of Parliament.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Votes 18/01, 18/02, 18/03, 18/04, 18/05, 18/06, 18/07, 18/08, 18/10, 18/11, 18/12, 18/13, 18/14, 18/15, 18/16, 18/17, 18/18, 18/19, 18/20, 18/21, 18/22, 18/23, 18/24, 18/25, 18/26, 18/27, 18/28, 18/29, 18/30, 18/31, 18/32, 18/33, 18/34, 18/35, 18/36 and 18/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 26 – (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting – K181,256,524)

 

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Ms Siliya): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you most profoundly for giving me this opportunity to present the ministry’s policy statement. To begin with, allow me to thank His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, Her Honour the Vice-President, Madam Inonge Mutukwa Wina, all my Cabinet colleagues, the hon. Members of Parliament in this House and the entire Public Service workers for the tireless efforts they continue making towards creating a better Zambia without leaving any one behind. I also wish to thank most sincerely, the people of Zambia for the support they have rendered and continue rendering to the Government.

 

Madam Chairperson, as the House is aware, the mandate of the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting is derived –

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I had just begun reading the statement. As the House is aware, the mandate of the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting is derived from the Gazette Notice No. 836 of 2016 regarding the allocation of statutory functions.

 

Interruptions

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order in the House!

 

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, the subject portfolios for the ministry are as follows:

 

1. broadcasting and television services;
2. cinematography policy;
3. information services; and
4. theatre policy.

 

Mr Chairperson, further, the ministry is responsible for the following statutory bodies:

 

1. the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA);
2. the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC); and
3. the Zambia Institute of Mass Communication (ZAMCOM) Education Trust.

 

Mr Chairperson, under broadcasting and television services, the ministry facilitated the Digital Migration Project. In 2019, we made tremendous progress in the implementation of the Digital Migration Project. I wish to inform the people of Zambia, through this august House, that we are now broadcasting television in digital format.

 

Mr Chairperson, the installation of transmission systems across the country is 100 per cent done for direct to home television and over 80 per cent done for Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT). Analysis is currently underway to determine when the DTT will also be 100 per cent complete. While the success in digital migration calls for celebration, we are also aware of how convergence in technology has affected both telecommunication and broadcast regulatory frameworks not only in Zambia, but across the continent. Most of the regulatory frameworks have lagged behind and are in need of urgent review to remain being relevant.

 

Mr Chairperson, it is against this background that the ministry commenced the process of interrogating its legal and institutional arrangements in order to address the challenges brought about by the convergence in technology. This process includes a review of legislation and realigning of some ministerial portfolio functions. We have already identified some gaps in the system, one of them being that media content regulation is divorced from the Information Communication Technology (ICT) regulation. We are taking some steps to correct this anomaly as a matter of urgency.

 

Mr Chairperson, experts have advised that from the point of view of communication infrastructure and related services, convergence makes the traditional separation of regulatory functions between these sectors increasingly inappropriate and calls for a coherent regulatory regime. In this regard, I wish to inform this House that the ministry is monitoring tax evasion issues relating to over the top content which is media content delivered over the internet without the involvement of a multi-system operator in the control or distribution of the content.

 

Mr Chairperson, under cinematography, the film industry is full of potential. It represents numerous opportunities for both national and personal development. With the pool of talent and innovation among our people in this country, the film industry is a hanging fruit that the country can take advantage of to make our economy more viable. The ministry is working out modalities of ensuring that jobs are created in the film sector.

 

Mr Chairperson, we are working against the background that film content does not only benefit the artists. It has ripple effects extending to drivers, set makers, water producers, designers, makeup artists, accountants, marketers and many more. It is for this reason that the ministry has prioritised film development and is currently working towards restructuring the ministry to ensure that this very important mandate is executed efficiently. The ministry is also facilitating the enactment of a policy and an Act of Parliament leading to the formation of a film guild for filmmakers which shall ensure that filmmaking is professionalised in Zambia.

 

Mr Chairperson, under information services, the ministry houses the Office of the Chief Government Spokesperson, who is the mouthpiece of the Government. This does not, however, entail that only the Minister of Information and Broadcasting gives information about Government matters. The information also lies within ministries and other public bodies.

 

Mr Chairperson, to enhance the dissemination of public information, the ministry is proposing a new information policy. The Cabinet early this year provisionally approved the Access to Information Bill. The ministry is currently attending to issues that were raised such as security concerns that could hinder the implementation of this Bill. This is important because there is no use having a law that cannot be implemented because of the lack of the necessary buy-in systems.

 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry recently submitted a draft Government Information and Communication Policy for Cabinet consideration. The said policy is of profound importance. It is this policy, once approved, that will facilitate the creation of the necessary positions in ministries and public bodies, including budget lines to make possible the implementation of co-ordinated, proactive and efficient dissemination of information to the media and the public. It is also the approval of this policy that will guide the final position on the Access to Information Bill.

 

Mr Chairperson, the House may also wish to know that access to information comes with stern consequences for journalists who publish falsehoods or information that is exempted from the public under the proposed Access to Information Bill. Against this background, and as a prerequisite to the enactment of the Access to Information Bill, the ministry requested the media practitioners, and in particular the journalists, to formulate a statutory self-regulatory framework.

 

Mr Chairperson, I regret to report that it is has been eight months since the media practitioners, and in particular the journalists, reaffirmed their commitment to develop a self-regulatory framework but with no tangible progress made so far. Consequently, the ministry has resolved to formulate a self-regulatory framework for media practitioners because their lack of progress is holding back a very important national Bill, the Access to Information Bill. As a ministry, we have met our corresponding target to facilitate the enactment of the Bill. We have developed a Government Communication Policy and a Government Communication Strategy, and both documents have been conveyed to Cabinet to be put on the Cabinet agenda for consideration.

 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is currently in consultation with other line ministries and statutory bodies on the formulation of the theatre policy. Not only is theatre an important tool of communication but is also an economically viable sector if well developed. It is for that reason that the ministry is eager to develop the theatre sector so that we too can boast of theatre as famous as the West End in London and Broadway in New York.

 

Mr Chairperson, I believe that the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, with its mandate as reflected in Gazette Notice No. 836 of 2016, can become an economically viable ministry especially in today’s digital world. Currently, Zambia has 150 radio licences and fifty television licences, with over 95 per cent privately owned. The ministry has observed that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the media as a business. One of its tasks is to make people appreciate media as a business so that it makes a significant contribution to the growth of the country’s economy.

 

Mr Chairperson, the 2020 ministry’s budget is based on the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP), and it anchors and responds to the vision and the mission of the ministry. In the 2020 Budget, the ministry has been allocated K181,256,524, and K133,129,565 is the projected draw down from the loan under the Digital Migration Phases II and III Project financed by the Export-Import (EXIM) Bank of China. Again, I thank the hon. Members of Parliament for having supported the implementation of the programme in the past few years.

 

Mr Chairperson, the organisation of the budget is principally based on the functional structure of the ministry. In order to rationalise resources doing more for less, the ministry’s budget for 2020 is related to programmes and estimates of expenditure and will be expended in the following areas;

 

1. film development; implementation of the film policy to create wealth and employment;
2. branding for Zambia; to brand the country as a destination for environment tourism and democracy;
3. media development; the focus will be on restructuring and reforms in the media, especially the review of the policies, introduction of relevant legislation and restructuring of public media; and
4. infrastructure development; including the installation of rural FM transmitters country wide, especially for radio and television signal.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Government’s vision is to facilitate the growth of a free, responsible and sustainable media industry in order to bring about a well-informed citizenry motivated to embrace democratic governance and national development. I appeal to all the hon. Members of the House to support the ministry’s budget for 2020.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for affording the people of Choma Central Constituency an opportunity to render their voice and views on this important Motion on the Floor of the House.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me begin by stating that when we stand on the Floor of this House as representatives of the people who were elected to come and speak on their behalf, we bring their views, and are not duty bound to bring views that are tasteful to the Executive. We are here to bring views from society, notwithstanding that the Executive may not like to hear what we tell them. In so doing, we are not here to mesmerise or merry make with the Executive. We are here to talk about the state of the nation and the problems that the Executive may not know because they are not everywhere in our society. Therefore, the Executive should not misunderstand that when we talk, we talk as individuals. It is, therefore, shocking that in their responses, some of them take it personal and begin discussing personalities. We are not here to discuss personalities but the Government. If they do not have what it takes to stomach criticism, they should resign and go and sell at the market in Kabwata.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to proceed by commending the workers of the public media such as the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), the Times of Zambia and the Zambia Daily Mail for their tenacity and resilience to work under very difficult circumstances just like many workers in the Public Service. We are aware that workers from the public media have been faced with the challenge of delayed salaries. They have not gone on strike because they realise that the service they provide is essential, and oxygen to the democratic survival of a nation and that we have to constantly be fed on a diet of information as to what is happening around. So, I commend them for their resilience and patriotism of not going on strike even under difficult circumstances that are pertaining. Indeed, the public workers from ZNBC and others in the Public Service are doing more for less in line with what President Lungu said. We call on the Government to learn to do more for less because it is doing less for more.

 

Mr Chairperson, I also commend the private media and its staff for taking up the vast space of a yawning vacuum that has been left by the public broadcaster of informing and educating the public. Wherein the public media has now been reduced to a propaganda wing outlet of the ruling party, the Patriotic Front (PF), the private media has stepped up to the challenge and occupied that space in order to inform the nation on many important occurrences in the nation.

 

Mr Chairperson, when one knocks off and wants to know current affairs, he/she should tune to Prime Television, Muvi Television or Diamond Television, and will be updated even when senior Government officials are beaten at markets. When a senior Government official is beaten for instance at Kabwata Market, …

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mweetwa: … one will only get that information on Prime Television and other well-meaning media outlets. ZNBC is scared of telling the truth. So, I commend the private media for taking up that role. Without it, in terms of media under this PF administration, Zambia would have been reduced to a one-party state kind of arrangement. I thank the private media on behalf of the Government, because I am part of it, for accommodating programmes of the public media on their stations.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Government now knows that the majority of citizens follow the private media. Not too long ago, I was ecstatic to see the Sunday Interview, which is a flagship discussion programme of ZNBC, being shown on Prime Television. The Government had to buy air time on Prime Television. ZNBC airs the Sunday Interview on Sunday, but it is better one watches football and they know that. The following day on Monday, ZNBC bought airtime for Prime Television to air the Sunday Interview, so, it paid for a political advertisement. The public media is being muzzled to a level where it has lost credibility amongst the viewers, such that the viewership is for the private media and the Government has to follow where the people are. The hon. Minister did well to go to Prime Television and we actually tried to follow what she was saying because of Prime Television, and not what she was saying.

 

Mr Chairperson, how can a public broadcaster fail to carry out public opinion? The issue of hunger and corruption in this country has plagued national debate for a long time and the issue of corruption is rarely heard in the public media, yet these are the realities on the ground. When the President came to this House, he talked about fighting corruption.

 

Mr Chairperson, I do not blame ZNBC and its staff and I think they have an antenna to listen to the political wind. What is the content of ZNBC news? It is not a bad idea to hear what President Lungu, the Vice-President and the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development say but those cannot be the only things that ZNBC should show. That is not even news. We are sick and tired of being fed on a repetitive menu of a bad diet of the PF news. Every day, we hear about the PF doing this and that. If ZNBC does not show the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting or President Lungu, it shows the Media Director, a cadre of the PF who occupies a lot of air space on our televisions. We pay the Television Levy to watch quality things and not that propaganda, of trying to make a good image out of a failed governance system of the PF.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, on that score, I request the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting when winding up debate to clarify the role of the Chief Government Spokesperson, as opposed to that of the Media Director of the PF. As citizens, we would like to know when a particular pronouncement represents the Government and when it represents a club, the PF, a bad party that has brought misery in this country. We would like to know the difference between those two. When the hon. Minister is talking, we should be able to say, “Okay, their Government is a failed one, but since she is an hon. Minister and holds a Government position, what do we do or say about it” unlike subjecting the nation to listen to the Media Director every day. Which Media Director? They should let their Media Director talk about their PF, which is outgoing. They should leave the Government to be represented by the Chief Government Spokesperson so that at any given time, we know what represents the Government as opposed to the issues of the PF that we are not interested in because it is a club.

 

Mr Chairperson, in a democratic state, the media is the fourth estate and lubricates the democratic machinery by allowing itself to be the market place upon which divergent views converge to compete for acceptability in the market to the citizens. The media in that breath has a role to defend and promote democratic tenets. It should represent and carry the opinion of an ordinary person as opposed to all the time reflecting and exhibiting its opinion over an individual or a political party.

 

Mr Chairperson, if you allow me, I would like to use this opportunity to express my frustration. As a result of muzzling the public broadcaster, did you listen to the way ZNBC reported the official opening of Parliament by President Lungu as news? They reported that: “President Lungu has opened Parliament. He was clad in a nice blue suit and nicely polished black shoes.” What type of reporting is that? Who is interested in President Lungu’s suit or his shoes? We are interested in the contents of his address. We do not want the public media to become a hero worshiper of individuals. It is state apparatus that is part of the Government that is a growing concern, unlike individuals and political parties who come and go.

 

Do not make the media become your slave and sing about you even when you are a huge let down to the people of Zambia. In fact, in advanced democracies, you would have been receiving a lot of criticism from the public media. Not only is the public media suffering, but it is aware that you have made people suffer, whilst you as the PF seem to live relatively better.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me conclude by saying that in this country, for some time now, hon. Ministers under the PF have given assurances that they will bring the Access to Information Bill to this House, which is crucial in the fight against corruption. I heard the hon. Minister make a statement concerning that, but did not state the way forward. I think it is important that one day the Access to Information Bill materialises.

 

Mr Chairperson, as I wind up, let me talk about the ZNBC Act versus the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA). Why should ZNBC play to different rules and regulations, yet there are professionals in one industry? The Government has set rules to govern the private and public media, but it is like ZNBC is on its own. The media should be accountable to one regulatory framework in order to promote professionalism and equal coverage, and we require it to return to professionalism. The media in Zambia has stood in defence of freedoms and liberties of not only the media itself, but of the people of this country. When you have a leadership that is so intolerant to criticism such as the PF, you need the media to take up its right position in defence of freedoms and liberties. As the hon. Minister responds, she should confine herself to issues and not to us. We shall continue exposing you and your iniquities. You have made our people suffer.

 

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister will respond to what is being said and she will definitely not centre her debate on individuals.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing the voice of the people of Bweengwa to scrutinise this Vote. I also thank the hon. Minister for her wonderful and very nicely decorated statement. I only hope that she will put into action all that she said.

 

Mr Chairperson, to start with, I am a very disappointed Member of Parliament because the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting has veered off from what the society needs and  is only interested in what the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, the President, the hon. Ministers and other supporters of the PF want. The people of Zambia want a just and fair society. However, this time around, there is no one at all in the PF who has the capacity to manage the affairs of this ministry. This ministry has become a disaster for the majority of the people of Zambia because one can predict the news. The moment the 1900 hours news starts, we will hear that President Edgar Lungu has banned buses without seat belts supported by Hon. Bowman Lusambo and Hon. Given Lubinda. That is all we hear. We are not interested in hearing such things because that is not news.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Michelo, that point was delivered in the previous debate. So, you are repeating exactly what Mr Mweetwa said when you know the rules of this House. The House and the nation are listening to the same thing because that point has already been delivered by Mr Mweetwa. It would be better for you to move to the next point so that, if possible, you can deliver your speech within five to seven minutes, and leave time for other hon. Members to participate. Otherwise, I will just cut the debate and move to individual items because we are not saving time.

 

You may continue.

 

Mr Michelo: Mr Chairperson, I have a special way of debating. Hon. Mweetwa debated in his fashion, and I am also trying to debate in my own fashion. If the points he mentioned –

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

You were sounding repetitive and that is why I chipped in and guided.

 

Mr Michelo: Mr Chairperson, hold your fire. We are together.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Television Levy that the people of Zambia pay has to be abolished because it is not even serving the interest of this country. We are not interested in hearing what the President or the Vice-President say. The people of Zambia are interested in hearing intelligent ideas from people like Mr Hakainde Hichilema. Give us space. That is all we want.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Michelo, resume your seat.

 

Prof. Luo: On a point of order, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: That is exactly the kind of debate that prompts people to rise on points of order. I really do not want to be curtailing hon. Members who are debating or, indeed, wasting time by guiding because that consumes time. I am not interested in doing that. If you observed, when Mr Mweetwa was debating, I did not say anything until he concluded his debate. So, that kind of debate will not be allowed.

 

Prof. Luo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: I have guided. Prof. Luo wants to raise a point of order but I will not allow her because I have just guided the hon. Member who is debating. Hon. Members, I urge you to avoid naming people who may not come here to defend themselves. Let us be serious as we stand to debate.

 

Mr Michelo, you may continue.

 

Mr Michelo: Mr Chairperson, it is the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) and not the Patriotic Front Broadcasting Corporation. Most of the time when we listen to the news on ZNBC, we only hear about PF propaganda. We are not interested in that.

 

Mr Chairperson, I urge our hon. Colleagues in the PF Government to learn from the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC). If they do not listen to SABC news, we can help them to do so. They also need to learn from the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) and Cable News Network (CNN) and they will see how people are given space. Even in South Africa, opposition leaders such as Mr Malema and the outgoing leader of the Democratic Alliance are given space to express their views. Why are things not happening in the same manner in this country? When our hon. Colleagues in the PF were still in the Opposition, they cried the loudest that the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) regime was not treating them fairly, yet they are worse. When we take over power in 2021, we will show them how democratic this country will be.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Michelo: We will be giving them space on ZNBC. That is all that we will be doing to them.

 

Mr Chairperson, if the PF do not change the way they are managing ZNBC, let me assure them that I will tell the people of Zambia, and in particular the people of Bweengwa, to start training their dogs to bark every time they hear the term ‘PF’ because it seems they are not listening to us. We have advised them several times to manage this institution properly, but they have failed. Maybe they will change if the dogs bark every time they hear the term ‘PF’.

 

Mr Chairperson, coming to the predictability of news, it is not good and it is not helping the country at all. I do not blame the officers or staff at ZNBC, but the people at the helm. They should give the people at ZNBC chance and freedom to air our intelligent president who has big ideas, and to address the nation. Some of us are even failing to address the nation. Why are we failing to address the nation, especially under the current scenario?

 

Mr Chairperson, there is load shedding, but we are not being given any hope. Currently, there is an average of fifteen hours of load shedding per day, but what is the PF doing? We have not heard them apologise to the people of Zambia for not being proactive enough and coming up with other means of producing power in this country. We want them to start managing this country reasonably well, and not like leaders who are managing a kantemba or small tavern.

 

Mr Chairperson, ZNBC has become a platform for the PF. However, most of the people who listen to ZNBC news usually do not have power. I will justify the reason I am suggesting that the Television Levy of K5 that the Zambians pay should be abolished. By the time power is restored at 2300 hours or 2400 hours, people are already asleep. So, why should people still pay the Television Levy? I request the PF to abolish the Television Levy in the meantime because the people of Zambia are hungry and it still wants to be getting more money from them, and that is not good for this country.

 

Mr Chairperson, I can simply say that the PF’s nakedness has been exposed. In Tonga, we say ‘mwahala chintanda.’ It can no longer hide behind a finger. All its wrongdoings have been exposed and the people of Zambia are aware that it has failed this country and this ministry. There is no way, we, the people of Zambia, can continue paying the Television Levy just for PF propaganda. We will not do that. If the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting is serious enough with her policy statement, starting from today, she should give HH (Hakainde Hichilema) space on ZNBC to talk to the people of Zambia. The PF has failed to hold a press conference to explain to the people of Zambia why it has failed this country.

 

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, it is not good for us Zambians to be criticising one another. We should start loving one another because that is important. We should criticise each other constructively. It is not good to always –

 

Interruptions

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Let the hon. Member debate. He is trying to send the message that we should not be criticising one another.

 

Mr Michelo, you may continue.

 

Mr Michelo: Mr Chairperson, we should criticise each other constructively, and when we do that, it does not mean that we are enemies. We are not enemies, but one people.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Michelo: There is an hon. Member saying – anyway, it is fine. Let us love one another because love is like a bank account. If you do not deposit love, in view of the current situation and if the PF propaganda continues, I think there will be bloodshed in 2021. When the PF changes the way it manages ZNBC, it will be better for the people of this country. What kind of society will we hand over to the next generation if the PF continues the way it is managing this country?

 

Mr Chairperson, I urge the PF Government to declare load shedding and the hunger situation a national disaster because it has completely failed to manage the situation. The only thing the PF can do is to start packing. It should not start packing in 2021 but now so that when that time comes, it will just carry its luggage and move out of the Government.

 

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Minister for the policy statement.

 

Mr Chairperson, I want to declare that I share a long history with the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting having been at the same tertiary school, although she was slightly behind me. She is, indeed, in the right place because she trained as a journalist and should fully understand that even in diversity of thought, there can be unity.

 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to anchor my short debate on the media. The media is known to be the fourth estate and is there primarily to give society leverage to do its own introspection and to provide checks and balances. The media’s freedom of expression sits at the heart of the fundamental rights and freedoms of an individual. I will also make a few comments on the development of media freedom in this country, the community voices, access to information and media reforms. We have no choice but to support the budget for the ministry, but I want to sound out a few things that the hon. Minister must take note of. It is surprising that what the Patriotic Front (PF) manifesto says about the media and reforms, and to be precise what the late Mr Sata said between 2011 and 2016, and what the PF is doing is totally different.

 

Mr Chairperson, under the leadership of the PF, the media has suffered a great deal of anguish from the newly established Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA). The IBA has been victimising both television and radio stations and this must come to an end. The hon. Minister must stop it. She should ask the IBA to behave itself and not to take the law in its own hands. I have a picture of a cartoon that I will lay on the Table that was drawn by a scholar. It depicts the Government whispering to the IBA to fix a person and the IBA says “sure, boss” and is grabbing the shirt of independent broadcasters. If the House recalls, under PF, the first victim was Muvi Television, the second was The Post newspaper and the third was Prime Television.

 

Mr Chairperson, I was very delighted to hear my young friend, Hon. Mweetwa, state that the Sunday Interview had to be rebroadcast on Prime Television as a paid programme. How does ZNBC ask a private television station to broadcast its programme when it claims to be the most widely watched or supported organisation? Every time I pay my Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) bill, I support ZNBC which practices propaganda. Basically, propaganda is a way of “enlightening” society to the benefit of the ruling party. Fortunately, social media has now become much more powerful than ZNBC. It will continue being powerful and spread news faster than ZNBC.

 

Mr Chairperson, we all pay taxes. The hon. Minister should drift away from condensing the stories in the public newspapers and electronic media to only their activities because we pay tax, and I will give an example. Is it not big news when the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and a few Government hon. Ministers go to Cape Town to attend the African Mining Indaba or when the leader of the Opposition in this country, a person of excellence, is invited to address the African Mining Indaba in Cape Town? Is it because you do not like the face of Mr Hichilema? Why is that not newsworthy? Why did ZNBC not air the news of this the two times when Mr Hichilema went to address the African Mining Indaba in Cape Town? He is a distinguished individual, and pays the Television Levy even if you do not like him.

 

Mr Chairperson, is it not big news when the hon. Minister of Finance is in Washington dealing with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and side by side the Woodrow Wilson Foundation calls Mr Hakainde Hichilema to attend a meeting? Is it not big news when a citizen is invited by a big organisation like the Woodrow Wilson Foundation? Woodrow Wilson was the 41^st President of the United States of America (USA), and his foundation has been running from 1941. So, is it not big news if, for instance, the hon. Minister was invited to go and address that foundation? Why should it be big news when it is the hon. Minister but not big news when it is Mr Hichilema? Whether you like it or not, or whether it is distasteful or not, it is a stubborn fact that we on the left provide checks and balances on the Government, and are an alternative Government. The power to govern is courtesy of the people of this country. They are the ones who choose the people to govern. All the comments I am making border on fairness and to be fair is not a sign of weakness.

 

Mr Chairperson, I read a report where the Permanent Secretary for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, Mr Kasolo, was quoted as having said that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting would not be averse to members of the Opposition being given a platform on ZNBC to argue with members of the ruling party, and I was pretty impressed. It is there. He said he thought the hon. Minister would not be averse to giving that platform on ZNBC. The only thing that ZNBC, the Zambia Daily Mail and quasi-government operatives do is write headlines like “Hakainde Hichilema - Treason,” a thing that does not even exist. They make Christmas Day out of bad reporting or a non-case.

 

Mr Chairperson, if today, I was caught on the wrong side of the norms of society, I can assure you that my face will be on ZNBC tonight. However, whenever we do good, we are blacked out. I think there is a need to change because the only thing that is permanent in life is change. It is constantly coming. As I support the ministry’s budget, I know that the hon. Minister is a civil person. She is approachable and does not hide her feelings about the things she does. She must try to synchronise the compliments I am giving her to her colleagues who have no tolerance whatsoever about the activities of the Opposition that form news.

 

Mr Chairperson, under the PF, the police and the IBA have a secret union, and there are citable examples. You must have heard that the PF beat up a journalist in Chipata and made him drink urine. The police went to Mansa to close a programme when Hon. Chishimba Kambwili was talking. The PF stopped Hon. Chishimba Kambwili from talking to people in Kabwe and, then, they beat the living daylights out of them. The PF were beaten like small children in Kabwe when they wanted to stop Hon. Kambwili from interacting with the people in Kabwe. If it not the police, it is the PF. If it is not the PF, it is the IBA. They are the enemies of the media.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister belongs to the PF. I do not even understand – anyway, she is there to serve. The PF has never meant well for the journalists. Do you remember the case of Lesa Kasoma? She was beaten at her own radio station, Komboni Radio, under the PF. She was dragged to court, but won the case. You recall how Hakainde Hichilema exited through the roof at Sun FM Radio Station in Ndola because the PF were outside with pangas wanting to terminate his life. There is no pride in pretence. Things are not right in the hon. Minister’s ministry and she should take this as brotherly advice from me. She can make a difference. She still has one more year or a few months to make that difference so that society can be balanced.

 

Mr Chairperson, today, I chose to be a bit slow so that I try to restrict myself to one page. The media is important and should not be stifled or victimised. When the hon. Minister responds to the issues raised, I would like to know the benefit of the contract that Star Times and ZNBC signed. Sometime in 2018, the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC) authorised the two to do a merger. Where is the benefit of the loan that we got with Star Times because people now doubt the ownership of ZNBC? Where is the benefit of the loan to Zambians? Those are serious issues we need answers to.

 

Mr Chairperson, as we support the budget, there should be a change of mindset regarding ZNBC. ZNBC should be as it was when Hon. Ronnie Shikapwasha was Minister of Information and Broadcasting. If I go to ZNBC today to appear on a programme, I should not be cited as a trespasser like Dr Mumba was and convicted to go to jail for going to a public television station. It is really shameful. This reminds me of Joseph Goebbels the Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda under Adolf Hitler.

 

That is what you remind me of and Hitler was a dictator. I put it to you that even under the PF, you are nothing but just dictators. Dictators are people who just want to have it their way. The word ‘dictator’ is not an insult.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Nkombo, the word ‘dictator’ is not sitting well ...

 

Mr Nkombo: With who?

 

The Deputy Chairperson: ... with the House and the nation and I request you –

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, there are democrats, autocrats and dictators.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, Mr Nkombo!

 

You have done so well so far, and I thank you. Do not move away from that. You will lose nothing. Just withdraw that statement and move on.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am so sorry. I apologise a thousand times. In my mind I think that governance under President Edgar Lungu is dictatorial. That is what it is. It has no other definition, and because of that, I find it extremely difficult to withdraw –

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Ngulube is about to raise a point of order, although I will not permit him. Resume your seat, Mr Ngulube. Mr Nkombo, that statement is now provoking the hon. Members on the right.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the word ‘dictator’ and replace it with the PF is very democratic, and I congratulate it for that. If that sits well with it, it is extremely democratic but you know the truth.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Mr Chabi: On a point of order, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Nkombo who was on the floor has already resumed his seat.

 

Mr Chabi, resume your seat.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this afternoon.

 

Mr Chabi: On a point of Order, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Chabi: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order, which I am forced to do. The day before yesterday, I took time to read the Members’ Handbook and the Standing Orders. I was prompted to do that after I observed a trend developing especially by the hon. Members who call themselves senior Members of Parliament in this House. According to the Members’ handbook, when the Chair or the hon. Mr Speaker is speaking, the hon. Member is supposed to take his/her seat and allow him to speak, and this is very serious. Of late, the hon. Members of Parliament who have been in this House for the second, third or fourth term and their relevance is no longer needed stand when the Chair is making a ruling, which is against our own rules in the Members’ Handbook and the Standing Orders. My elder brother, who is a very senior member of this House, just did that, yet he is supposed to be the custodian of the rules of this House and be an example especially to us who have been elected to Parliament for the first time.

 

Mr Chairperson, was he in order to remain standing when you were making a ruling and ensuring that there is order in the House?

 

Mr Nkombo left the Assembly Chamber.

 

Mr Chabi: Mr Chairperson, he is now walking out. Was the hon. Member in order to remain standing when you were making a ruling thereby going against our own rules? I seek your serious ruling.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: I am sure you have delivered your point.

 

Interruptions

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order in the House!

 

The point raised by Mr Chabi is very valid. Mr Chabi has really explained and gone into details which all of us know. It is important that we go through the Members’ Handbook so that we are reminded of our own rules. Sometimes when we try to be soft on some hon. Members, it does not mean we are weak. If some hon. Members think like that, then, they are mistaken, and I must emphasise this point. Hon. Members should not continue pushing the presiding officers. We are here to maintain order so that we can conduct business in a mature manner, as hon. Members representing 17,000 people of this country. We all know the rules of this House. When we are soft and say order, and request hon. Members to resume their seats, some of them want to behave like other hon. Members who they observe in other parliaments of the continent and we will not allow that. In the first place, nations are totally different. The conduct of hon. Members in this country and those in other countries is totally different. So, we must know what we are doing and if any of us in here think they can copy the misconduct of some hon. Members in other parliaments and think that will be tolerated here, we will not tolerate that. This is a totally different Parliament in a well organised nation called Zambia. So, we must follow the rules.

 

Dr Malama, you may continue, and I hope the hon. Members have heard.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, thank you for guiding the House.

 

Mr Chairperson, the electronic and print media in Zambia is doing very well, in the sense that there are more television stations and newspapers coming up. However, like President Trump stated, it is important for the media to appreciate our cultural values. I appreciated when I heard President Trump emphasise that importance and he further said that the media should not follow fake news. I am not using the term “fake news” but I am just quoting what President Trump said.

 

Mr Chairperson, because of the proliferation of the media, we are seeing talent coming up. When one watches Mpali and Zuba, he/she sees the Zambian talent that had been locked up, but is now coming up, even though Zambians do not subscribe to polygamous marriage per se. However, one is able to see the talent that is coming up. So, this needs to be supported. However, this talent that is coming up needs to be channelled properly, to realise the full potential of the media. Some of our sister nations like the United States of America (USA) has Hollywood, Nigeria has Nollywood and India has Bollywood. I think some kind of wood is coming to Zambia, and we need to support it. Some kind of wood is coming to Zambia to unleash the rich creativity of the youth in our country.

 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Nkombo commended the Government Spokesperson for being civil and objective, and that is the way it should be. Of course, I do not support the other issues he raised and the posture in which he did it, but the Government Spokesperson is approachable. I commend His Excellency the President for appointing her to represent the Government.

 

Yesterday, the leader of a minority party called the young people, who opposed his views, buffoons instead of promoting civil language like what our Government Spokesperson does. What type of a leader is he? A leader must be civil. He said that on a Christian channel, and they actually paid and brought the private media to capture that and air it on another media institution even if they were condemning what the Government did. They did that to widen the coverage and promote the private media. However, their leader went to the private media and used the word ‘buffoon’. I think the leader of the Opposition should come here and apologise. Is that the kind of leader, who insults, people would want?

                                                                                                                     

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Dr Malama: My brother is questioning that, and I agree with him questioning such a leader.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance is a humble man. Quality! He went to the United States of America (USA) to represent our country and the media broadcast this information, and the leader of a minority party also went to the USA. In Washington DC, there is a street like Katondo Street in town and that is where I went. It is actually situated like Katondo Street and one can meet anyone there, be given promissory notes and be told that he/she will be given US$25 billion, but ten days after that – is that not just conniving?

 

Mr Chairperson, the Zambian Government sent the able hon. Minister of Finance alongside our able Bank Governor to meet senior officials at the Department of Finance. The Bank Governor, Dr Danny Hamachila Kalyalya, has worked as Executive Director and alternate Executive Director at the World Bank Group. He has great and impeccable academic and work experience.

 

Interruptions

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Dr Malama: The Zambian Government sent those people alongside other support staff to Washington DC. So, what was the leader of a minority party saying?

 

The Deputy Chairperson: I want to see how the hon. Member debating will connect what he has said to what we are debating. That is my interest.

 

Dr Malama, you may continue.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, the leader of a minority party said that the able gentlemen and ladies who were sent to Washington DC went there to only speak good English. It was only him who managed to gather those billions that the able Executive Director – can you imagine!

 

Interruptions

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

I am also listening to what Dr Malama is saying.

 

Dr Malama: This is someone who worked in Washington DC. Umuntu uwaya mukupweneka ku Washington DC nowabomba ku Washington DC –

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Dr Malama, what is ukupweneka? Further, are you debating the Budget?

 

Dr Malama: Sir, ukupweneka is one of the languages that came from Kola, where almost all the Zambians come from, and it simply means someone alecita icimpwena. For instance, when one goes to Katondo Street –

 

The Deputy Chairperson: You have not explained the meaning of icimpwena.

 

Dr Malama: Sir, I am explaining. For example, if one goes to Katondo Street and instead of him doing good business, he just looks around, then, when he comes back, he tells people using the media that he did a great deal there meantime he is misinforming the public.

 

Ms Tambatamba: On a point of order, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 

Ms Tambatamba: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a very serious point of order.

 

Mr Chairperson, we are currently debating the Vote of the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, but the hon. Member on the Floor has veered off from this and is in Washington DC, and Katondo Street, if at all it exists. Is he in order to veer off from the topic currently on the Floor and to go to Katondo Street, where he was in his dreams?

 

Please, make a serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Dr Malama, you will have to take the point of order raised by your colleague into consideration as you debate and, please, debate the budget. You may continue.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, thank you for the guidance. I want to make it very clear that there is misinformation, and I urge the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting to ensure that correct information is disseminated because certain people have the propensity to misinform the public using social media. For example, the leader of a minority party stated that the Zambian Government sent our able hon. Minister of Finance and Bank Governor to Washington DC to go and speak English. I want to remind that minority leader that the people the Government of Zambia sent to Washington DC are gurus in monitory policy, bank soundness and finance stability, regional co-operation and integration, financing for development, macro-economic policy and management, and open macro-economics. So, when they are sent –

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Dr Malama, you are not debating the budget. If you do not get back to the budget, I will curtail your debate. You are remaining with five minutes. You may continue, but we have to conclude this Vote.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, someone misinformed the public that the Government officials only went to Washington DC to speak English and I urge the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting to ensure that the misrepresentation alleging that the Government is wasting money is corrected. So, I do not think I am veering off from the Vote. I am stating a fact.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

I am guiding you. I am listening to your debate very well.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, I thank His Excellency the President for appointing a very able and sober hon. Minister of Finance. Minority leaders who would want to misinform the Zambian Government using social media and paid up private media should know that the Government is trying to help improve the economy of this country. The hon. Minister of Finance did not just go to Washington DC to speak good English. Much as he speaks good English, he and his team went to Washington DC to ensure that Zambia’s economic standing improves.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me also state that as things stand, the public media requires a lot of support not only from the Patriotic Front (PF), but the United Party for National Development (UPND). We should ensure that we put our heads together and see how best we should look after the public media. We should look after the public media together so that it can be well remunerated and equipped, and does not lag behind because it represents the whole country. So, let us not throw stones at those who work for the public media or make fun of them. When we want them to side with us, we speak for them and shortly after speaking for them we turn around and start hitting them. Let us look after the public media. Those who work for the private media are also doing a commendable job and we should not demean them by giving them hand-outs even when someone uses a word such as ‘buffoon’. Someone who wants to be the President of the Republic of Zambia even pays to use the word ‘buffoon’. It is a shame! Zambians would not be able to subscribe to have such a person become a leader of this country. Look at our President –

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Dr Malama: Thank you for questioning them. Even me I am questioning them.

 

Mr Chairperson, His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, would not say such words. His respectful to the young and old people, and even the minority leaders. That is what he does. That is leadership. Her Honour the Vice-President is respectful –

 

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Livune, resume your seat and allow the hon. Member debating to conclude his debate.

 

Dr Malama: Correct.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, the media should cover leaders like Her Honour the Vice-President. How would a minority leader use the public media and the first word he says is ‘buffoon’? They would tell him to go out. One cannot use the word ‘buffoon’ on public media because he would be thrown out. Her Honour the Vice-President uses civil language. The hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting brings out issue based statements and we urge –

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

Dr Malama, I am sure you have seen that someone wants to raise a point of order over the word ‘buffoon’. When you used it for the first time, I allowed you because you were quoting someone who said it. However, you have continued using it and it has now attracted a point of order. So, avoid using that word.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the guidance. This is public discourse and we will not retreat from ensuring that the public and political space is clean. Zambia is a Christian nation and our people have values. I initially talked about President Trump, who said the media should reflect our cultural values. The people throughout the provinces of our land expect even the young ones to listen to the public media. Parents would not want to hear the word that Mr Hakainde Hichilema used on Radio Christian Voice and was repeated on Prime Television. I urge my brother, Mr Hakainde, not to do that. He should emulate His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, ...

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: ... and Her Honour the Vice-President, the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting and the Patriotic Front (PF).

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: We have heard a lot about the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) and Prime Television. Before Mr Mbangweta starts debating, I wish to state that the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting has so many departments. People expect you to, at least, say something on different institutions such as the Zambia Daily Mail and The Mast newspapers, the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) and many others, which we all know very well, but you are just talking about the same things. Let us hear from Mr Mbangweta. Otherwise, I may ask the hon. Minister to conclude.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes!

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. The budget for this ministry is just like the other budgets for the other ministries. It shows that the country is not going anywhere. We are going in reverse.

 

Mr Chairperson, first of all, if I am to talk about the institutions that were mentioned, apart from The Mast newspaper, I would say that the Government ought to lead by example. It should be paying the people who work for it. It is abusing the people who work for it, yet it wants to prescribe what they should do and write. That is unacceptable. The other thing is that the bureaucrats at the ministry should stop issuing political statements. If they want to become politicians, they should leave those positions and become politicians because several times, they have issued statements and that is not part of their job description.

 

Mr Chairperson, the people in the ministry and even those who exercise self censorship at the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) and Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) should not work like the police who have forgotten that it is us the citizens who pay them, even though the Government does not necessarily pay them on time. They use our money so there is no reason they should discriminate by choosing to write stories they think make sense to them. People are interested in knowing what is happening in the country.

 

Mr Chairperson, for example, the Government says there is no hunger. I would like to see somebody from ZNBC go to Nkeyema, look around and produce a report that concludes that the people who are complaining are being unreasonable. That is what we expect. Yesterday, I was listening to a story on the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) about the hunger and drought in our sub-region. How is it that the public broadcaster cannot write about that just because the people in the Patriotic Front (PF) do not like it? They should not do that sort of thing. That is not what we expect from them.

 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about the many things they want to do, like rebrand Zambia, restructure the media, infrastructure development and other things. Those are important activities, but we know that the ministry is sick. It has failed to execute its mandate for this year and next year, it will get very little money in relation to the money it was given this year. I must apologise in advance if I did not see properly or, maybe, there is a figure somewhere. However, the figure in the Yellow Book that the hon. Minister stated or the budget proposal for next year is far less than that that was approved for this year and the ministry even failed to do certain things. How is it, then, that next year it will try to do more things with less funding? How is that possible?

 

Mr Chairperson, we expected to see a downscale in activities. How will the Government rebrand Zambia? Rebranding costs a lot of money. Where will that money come from when it is failing to pay the people who work for it? How is that possible? The Government should be paying the people who work for it because it should set standards. If it does not pay them, it means that even the people in the private sector and individuals will not be paying their workers on time and the Government has no basis to expect other people to comply with the rules and regulations that it does not follow.

 

Mr Chairperson, I expected the ministry to have maybe one or two activities. Based on that assumption, it is not correct to say that the budget for the ministry has a relationship with the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP). This is because in the 7NDP, there are activities to spur growth and achieve many things, which activities we will not be able to fund. On that basis, why would the ministry come to the House to share ignorance with us because I expected it to pick only two activities? If, for example, it has money stashed elsewhere that it is expecting, in her statement, the hon. Minister should have explained where this money will come from which is not in the Yellow Book. That would have comforted us, but as it is, the budget we are discussing has been reduced, just like the budget for the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. So, even our expectations should also reduce, but where are we headed to? The Government has reduced allocations to most activities but increased the allocation to the police. Are the police the most important out of all the activities that have an impact on the citizens of this country? I would say no. However, the Government thinks the police should be a priority.

 

Mr Chairperson, citizens are paying the Television Levy, which is a direct sort of tax. Surely, the Executive should understand that the citizens deserve better. In terms of professionalism, the new stations have younger staff who recently qualified. In due course, they will bypass the people from the public media because they are not constrained and can go and cover activities that matter to society. However, the staff in the public media are constrained maybe by the hand above it, and at the end of the day, they do not cover what the citizens expect them to.

 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: That is good.

 

Mr Kundoti (Luena): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add the voice of the people of Luena. I also thank the hon. Minister for the policy statement she has –

 

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: No more points of order until we conclude business for the day.

 

Mr Kundoti, you may continue.

 

Mr Kundoti: Without a quorum?

 

The Deputy Chairperson: I have been communicated to about that, but Mr Mutelo be quick.

 

A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, there is no quorum in the House. Are we in order to proceed without a quorum?

 

The Deputy Chairperson: I have been advised that there is no quorum.

 

Business was suspended from 1234 hours until 1236 hours.

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, I am aware that some hon. Members are supposed to go to Livingstone, but they should not leave until we are done. We have communicated to the officers that the bus will only leave the National Assembly Motel at 1400 hours.

 

We now have a quorum. Mr Kundoti, you may continue.

 

Mr Kundoti: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was thanking the hon. Minister for the policy statement. I also thank the people of Luena for making it possible for their voice to be heard in the House.

 

Mr Chairperson, the media is very important in the development of the nation in that if we are to propagate the policies of development of the nation, we can only use the media to pass that information to the intended people. Without the media, it becomes very difficult to communicate effectively and pass that information to the people who are supposed to receive and use it. If people are to make informed decisions, it is imperative that they receive the information necessary for them to do so.

 

Mr Chairperson, let me also say that it is very important to have a media that operates freely in a democracy like ours. If we are to see democracy thrive and grow in Zambia, we need to have a free media. Without which, it can be very difficult for democracy to thrive. Democracy may only end up on our lips, but practically, we may not have it. As we all know, the media is the fourth estate. Therefore, it is important that the people who are in the Government are seen to nurture and grow this branch of governance. If they do not do so, we are headed nowhere.

 

Mr Chairperson, the freedom of speech and the freedom to receive information is a right of every citizen. Therefore, it is important that the Government does not muzzle the press, but sees to it that it operates freely in the country. It has been said on the Floor of this House that the public media has failed to live up to its obligation of really being a public media. This has been the complaint of hon. Members in this House from the left and so many quarters of this nation. People today say that it is valueless to watch the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC). This is because what they expect to hear on ZNBC does not come forth, but when they tune to private media channels, they find the information which they need so much.

 

Mr Chairperson, ZNBC and other public media houses today are known to be propaganda mouths for the Patriotic Front (PF) led Government. That on its own has frustrated the citizens of this country, and means that they no longer take time to watch ZNBC. That on its own has actually painted a bad picture of the public media. It is like the journalists who work for the public media houses are not innovative or intelligent, yet it is the opposite. There are very intelligent young women and men in the public media houses but because they cannot freely express themselves and expose their talent due to the powers that be that tell them what they can or cannot do, we conclude that they are not intelligent, yet they are.

 

Mr Chairperson, one hon. Member who debated gave an example of programmes such as Mpali and others that we watch on private media channels. Those programmes are watched on the private media channels and not on ZNBC. Does it mean that it is only in the private media where there are intelligent and innovative media people? No! Even at ZNBC there are there, but because we have put them in a situation where they are not free to operate, the talent is sat upon.

 

Mr Chairperson, we have talked about the hunger situation in this country but who out of the media houses stood out boldly and reported that situation? Who out of the public media houses has taken a step to go out there with cameras? The Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) is dotted all over the country and they have cameras. Why have they not taken a step to go to rural areas and take videos that they can show to the Executive and say yes, we have seen it? All we have seen is that they toll the Executive’s line. When the Executive says that the Opposition is just politicising the hunger situation, that is what they will report, yet as journalists, they are supposed to verify the information. They have the means, but why are they not able to do that?

 

Mr Chairperson, last weekend, I was in my constituency and Prime Television showed a story of the hunger stricken people of Usha Ward in Luena Constituency feeding on green mangoes, yet some members of the Executive will take it as just politicking. How about when those mangoes finish, what will happen to those people and what will they eat? However, we see a lot of mealie meal being taken to an area where there is a by-election, yet people are starving out there. What is the public media doing? So, what I am trying to say is that, let the public media operate freely. Please, do not cage the media.

 

Mr Chairperson, it is sad that the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) is not helping us. The IBA is not helping the journalists in this nation, and instead of it building them, its role is to just watch with a whip and crack the private media. That is not the way you build. To build is not to whip every time a mistake is committed. Has the IBA taken time to build the journalists? No. Its interest is to watch and see who it will whip. That is not the way we do it. The IBA must know its position. It must come to a point of realising that the journalists are its people and it should help them grow and become the media houses that Zambia would like to have. Today, our public media houses operate with fear of not knowing whether the stories they may air or print may land them in problems with the IBA. All I would say is that may the IBA realise that its work is not to crack a whip on the journalists every now and then, and to close media houses.

 

Mr Chairperson, we are supposed to build this young media in this country. For our democracy to thrive, journalists need to do their work effectively. Someone talked about the Sunday Interview on Prime Television. In fact, I also watched it and wondered why it was being broadcast on Prime Television. This is because the Government has realised that the majority of the viewers do not watch ZNBC but Prime Television, which is the truth. We cannot deny that. Let us not deny things that we know are facts.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting should look into the wages of the journalists. It should not just use them but it should pay them well and on time, and they will be happy. Yes, ZNBC has been refurbished. The studios are looking good but how about the workforce that is there. Is it happy? If it is not happy, the truth is that the intended goals will not be achieved. Achieving the intended goals of refurbishing that institution calls for a new mindset of the journalists who work for that institution. It is the same with the Times of Zambia and the Zambia Daily Mail newspapers. The new stations are doing wonders and the Executive knows that and cannot deny it.

 

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, I commend the private media and it should keep it up and move on, and come 2021, even ZNBC, the Times of Zambia and the Zambia Daily Mail newspapers will be rejuvenated and will be different organisations altogether.

 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, as I stated in the policy statement, there is a lot of misunderstanding about the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting and, indeed, the media in general. This point has been well-illustrated in the debates this afternoon but the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting is beyond ZNBC and the news.

 

Mr Chairperson, the Government needs to be congratulated because since the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) was effected, particularly in 2014, we have seen an acceleration of broadcasting houses with over 150 radio stations and fifty television stations. This is as it should be, and the private sector should have access to this business.

 

Mr Chairperson, in responding to Hon. Mweetwa, I wish to state that the public media, particularly, Times of Zambia and the Zambia Daily Mail newspapers, are under the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC). The IDC has made statements many times that it is working very hard to try and address the challenges at Times of Zambia and the Zambia Daily Mail newspapers.

 

Mr Chairperson, the IBA is not responsible for the print media. I think it is important that people have facts so that they do not come to the Floor of this House posturing as if they know something when they actually do not. The IBA was a piece of legislation that was passed by this House and it would help us if we actually read the IBA Act so that we can know the separation that it guides broadcasting in this country and not the print media.

 

Mr Chairperson, private sector media houses have also been struggling in this country because they are challenged by the same austerity measures that everyone is facing. So, while they are doing a good job, the Government sometimes wants to hold their hand because they also need the same revenue from it. The Government is the biggest spender in this country. Therefore, private media houses ask the Government to do programmes with them and to pay them, so they can pay their workers.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Ms Siliya: People have the right to say ‘question’ when they have nothing else to say, but the point is that the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting wants to support all the media entities in this country because it is responsible for them.

 

Mr Chairperson, I think it is a bit dangerous to try and pit the public media against the private media. The journalists who work in media institutions are trying to earn a living from their craft. When we begin eroding the confidence of the public in media institutions, especially the public media, we will be behaving like Hitler. When he started going after the Jews, the academics and the Church, everybody was quiet until he went after everybody, then, everybody realised that nobody was safe. If in this country we say that investigative wings and the media are useless, members of the public will tomorrow say that this House is useless because we are eroding confidence in institutions of governance.

 

Mr Chairperson, it is quite sad that in this House, there is a trend that is becoming quite real. When the Government is responding, our hon. Colleagues on the other side who bring out issues decide to either go to the bar or abscond from the House.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. UPND Members: We are here!

 

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, members of the public need to be aware of this issue.

 

Mr Chairperson, as regards the ZNBC Act and ZNBC having its own rules, indeed, that is true. However, as I said in my statement, we are putting forward the media policy, which should harmonise and ensure that all the media houses in this country are actually supported by the same law, and we will also review the IBA Act. Some people referred to the IBA almost like a monster, especially in terms of the Television Levy. They forget that they are the same hon. Members of Parliament who passed this levy. Sometimes the logic of those arguments is quite disturbing. I heard somebody almost making an analogy that the PF has done so badly and they will get dogs to be barking at them. Winston Churchill once said that if you stop every time you hear a dog barking, you will never get to reach where you are going. We, on the right side of the House, will not listen to dogs barking along the streets. We will stick to our work, and our work –

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the chair]

 

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 5^th November, 2019.

 

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