Friday, 26th February, 2021

Friday, 26^th February, 2021

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice- President (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House an indication of the business it will consider next week.

Mr Speaker, on Tuesday, 2^nd March, 2021, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. That will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider the following reports:

The Report on Report of the Auditor-General on the Utilisation of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Resources as at 31^st July, 2020; and
Report of the Select Committee on the Appointment of High Court Judges.

Thereafter, the House will consider the Second Reading stage of the following Bills;

The Public-Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, No. 4 of 2021;
The Compensation Fund (Amendment) Bill, No. 6 of 2021;
The Service Commissions (Amendment) Bill, No. 12 of 2021;
The Zambia Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies (Amendment) Bill, No. 14 of 2021;
The Zambia Revenue Authority (Amendment) Bill, No. 15 of 2021;
The Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (Amendment) Bill, No. 16 of 2021; and
The Zambia Law Development Commission (Amendment) Bill, No. 17 of 2021.

Thereafter, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 3^rd March, 2021, the Business of the House will start with Question for Oral Answer. That will be followed by consideration of Private Member’s Motions, if there will be any, and that will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will consider the Report of the Select Committee on the Appointment of Judges of the Court of Appeal, the Supreme Court and the Constitutional Court. Thereafter, the House will consider the Second Reading stage of the following Bills:

The National HIV/AIDS/STI/TB Council (Amendment) Bill, No. 8 of 2021;
The Public Service Pensions (Amendment) Bill, No. 11 of 2021; and
The Tropical Diseases Research Centre (Amendment) Bill, No.13 of 2021.

Thereafter the House will consider the Committee Stage of the following Bills:

The Data Protection Bill, No. 28 of 2020; and
The Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill, No. 29 of 2020.

The House will then conclude the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 4^th March, 2021 the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. That will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will debate the Motion to challenge the decision of the Chair to be moved by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 5^th March, 2021, the Business of the House will start with the Vice-Presidents Question Time, and that will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer. The House will then consider any other business that may be outstanding and, thereafter, adjourn Sine die.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

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THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Siwanzi ( Nakonde): Mr Speaker, the clearing and forwarding sector in Zambia has been diminishing in the recent past due to the effects of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) and some measures that have been taken in this industry that have disadvantaged local clearing companies. Further, sometime last year, there was word from the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) Commissioner-General that the Government was planning to empower local clearing and forwarding companies with business through Government importations. Being a Member of Parliament for a constituency encompassing a border town where clearing and forwarding is the main economic activity that puts bread and butter on the table for the people, I would like to hear from the Vice-President how far the Government has gone in the implementation of the idea of empowering local clearing and forwarding companies with business through Government importations.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Coronavirus Disease, 2019 (COVID-19) has literally paralysed a number of businesses due to suppressed import and export of goods and, definitely, clearing agencies have been affected like other businesses. However, it will be prudent for the clearing agents to take their grievances to the relevant ministries, especially the Ministry of Finance under which the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) falls. Once that is done, the Government will be considered how it can support that sector.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Zimba (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, there have been reports quoting the United Party for National Development (UPND) leader saying that inflation will drop under his regime. What is Her Honour the Vice-President’s advice to the UPND leader on what is causing inflation and what the Government doing about it?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, any leader who claims to have magical powers for reducing inflation within a short period of time is not being sincere.

Sir, we said in the House last week that inflation is caused by a number of economic factors and that those factors cannot be addressed in one day. It may take time for the Government to bring inflation under control. Suffice it for me to say that this Government is doing everything possible to tackle the inflationary state in which we find ourselves head-on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, many people, especially the police officers and civil servants do not vote during general elections because they are sent to go and conduct elections at polling stations where they did not register to vote. This time around, what measures has the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) put in place to ensure that presiding officers, polling assistants and police officers are allowed to vote wherever they will be sent to conduct elections?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has taken note of this observation, and stakeholders have been engaged in setting out modalities for preventing officers involved in the election process from being denied their democratic right to choose their leaders. So, the ECZ is looking into the matter, and I think, soon, we will be informed on the decision that will be made on how the exercise will be undertaken.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, when His Excellency the President came back from India two years ago, it was announced to the nation that the Government of the Republic of India had donated rice and milk to the people of Zambia who were starving. What has happened to the rice and milk that was donated, which the people have been expecting to receive?

Mr Ngulube: You want the rice, too?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, yes, the bilateral discussions that President Lungu had with his counterpart in India produced some result, namely an offer of humanitarian assistance to the people of Zambia by the President of India in the form of rice, and the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) received rice from India, although I am not sure of the quantities. The rice is there and it will be distributed to the areas in need of it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’ambi (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, I commend His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government for the bold decisions they made to take over the management of Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) in Kitwe and Mufulira. I also commend the current Zambian management team at the mine for making sure that the operations at the mine are sustained, and suppliers’ and workers’ interests secured. However, a Mr Emmanuel Mbambiko has been quoted in the private media saying that private sector investments are not secure because the Government has gone to the extent of taking over a private company when it is supposed to facilitate reconciliation or resolve the problems between the employees and the employer. That unpatriotic Zambian has gone to the extent of saying that MCM will be killed by the process that the Government has initiated. For such unpatriotic Zambians who have no heart for Zambians, the economy and the plight of the employees, what message does Her Honour the Vice-President have?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) will not be killed. To the contrary, many may be surprised to see the mine flourish.

Mr Speaker, the acquisition of majority shares in MCM by the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investments Holdings (ZCCM-IH) was a business transaction, not nationalisation, as some representatives of monopoly capital are now claiming. Glencore International, a company based in Switzerland, and ZCCM-IH, a Zambian company, sealed a deal to increase Zambia’s shareholding in the mine from 10 per cent to 100 per cent. Glencore International had made a business decision to place the mine on care and maintenance, which meant that more than 15,000 workers were going to lose their jobs and the business community on the Copperbelt was going to be adversely affected. Is that what some politicians wanted?

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Speaker, I can assure you that this is the best deal of the year, and Zambians should be proud of a Government that cares for its people and workers; a Government that is trying very hard to preserve jobs and create new ones, and aims to increase participation by locals in the mining industry and other sectors of the economy. That is the Government under the leadership of His Excellency Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, which will, indeed, change the fortunes of this country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in addition to the list on the e-Chamber, I have also received requests to ask questions on the Zoom platform from the hon. Members for Sioma, Manyinga, Serenje, Mkushi North, Gwembe and Lubansenshi, respectively. So, I will alternate between the two lists in giving the Floor.

The hon. Member for Sioma may ask her question.

Ms Subulwa: Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President may be aware of the many negative comments being made on social media that are affecting our country very seriously, and we have seen some opposition political parties use the corruption tag to attack the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. I have not heard anyone from the Opposition say something about the PF Government. What is the Government’s comment on that?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Opposition side in this country is very disappointing because, in all the democracies we know around the world, there are times the government achieves a positive outcome and the opposition commends or, at least, acknowledges that outcome. However, in Zambia, there is wholesale condemnation, including of good things, as was the case with the condemnation of Bill 10 in this House and the condemnation of the referendum to enhance the rights of Zambians. So, one wonders what kind of Opposition we have in this country.

Mr Speaker, the wholesale condemnation is meant to tarnish the name of this Government and discourage investors from bringing their resources into the economy so that the country is paralysed. This is a sign of a lack of patriotism among some of our colleagues who are perpetually condemning this Government does using perfected propaganda that can only be equated to with – was it – during the Second World War, there was a famous propagandist, Goebbels, the spin doctor for Hitler, whose propaganda was able to destroy most, if not the whole, of Europe. That is what some opposition leaders are doing; they want to see the collapse of this Government and the destruction of the whole country. So, I do not know which country they will take over after the mass destruction. However, we shall not allow the destruction; neither will the people of Zambia allow it because they, at least, the majority of them, have seen through all this propaganda, and they will continue to for what they perceive to be the genuine Government that is running their affairs.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President will recall that when we were campaigning for our councillor in Nampundwe, who is a Patriotic Front (PF) member, she promised the people of Nampundwe to tar a road. The people of Nampundwe, three quarters of whom speak Lozi, tell me kuli nelu ba bulelezi za buhata; that we coerced them, and now the road is not being worked on. What can she tell the people of Mwembezhi, especially of Nampundwe, about the road? Is it because Jamba exercised his right to vote against the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill 10 after voting with the PF for a long time that the Government has now abandoned that road …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, you have already asked your question. You are now making suppositions.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not one of the politicians who promise things that we cannot do and, during the campaigns, I do not remember telling the people that we were going to tar the road. All I remember telling the people is that we were going to work on the road, and working on a road does not necessarily mean tarring it.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: That will still be done.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs M. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, there have been media reports to the effect that Zambia will rebase its economy. What is the meaning of rebasing the economy? Further, what are the implications of doing so?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, to non-economists like me, rebasing of the economy means conducting an economic census involving getting information from all business houses so as to determine the gross domestic product (GDP) of the country in a given year. So, rather than estimating the GDP, rebasing gives the exact GDP figure for a given year.

Sir, in Zambia, the economy was last rebased in 2010. Ideally, an economy should be rebased every five years. However, due to the cost implications, that has not been done. Therefore, the Government plans to rebase the economy this year, with the base year being 2020.

Sir, rebasing of the economy will provide information on the size and composition of our economy and enable the Government to take appropriate measures to collect the correct taxes. This is similar to a Population Census that the country conducts to get the exact population figure in a given year, rather than relying on an estimated figure. It is, therefore, important that the country rebases so that the exact GDP for Zambia is known. This is because estimates can be over or under the actual figure.

Mr Speaker, that is my understanding of rebasing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Mr Speaker, most of the projects the Patriotic Front (PF) Government started countrywide, especially in rural constituencies like Manyinga, have stalled and when we ask hon. Ministers, they say that the projects will be implemented when funds become available. As a result, some sections of society are saying that the Patriotic Front (PF) club has lamentably failed. As we go towards the general elections, what message does Her Honour the Vice-President have for the people of this country who seem to be disappointed with her Government?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the fact that this Government started the projects definitely shows the desire of the Government to help its people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Sir, Manyinga is one of the newly-created districts. So, the hon. Member should closely work with the Government to ensure that the infrastructure that has been developed in his constituency is not vandalised and that it is nursed. When the necessary funds are secured, the works will continue so that we have a new Boma out of the rural areas of Kabompo because Manyinga was hived off Kabompo so that services could be delivered to our people.

Sir, as the hon. Member indicated, when resources are secured, the projects which are outstanding will be completed, and this is the more reason the people of Zambia should vote for Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu; he should be allowed to complete all the outstanding works he started in the districts.

Mr Speaker, the people who live in the districts should appreciate what has been started, and the fact that development is at their doorstep. That is why it is very important for them to realise that for those projects to be completed, the PF has to come back because the others will just demolish the projects. If a new Government comes in, I know that very little will be done to complete those structures and to improve the livelihood of our people. So, the hon. Member for Manyinga should work with us to complete the work that is outstanding.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Mwila (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, with the national Coronavirus 2019 (COVID-19) prevalence rate averaging 15 per cent, Kitwe Teaching Hospital (KTH) recording a steady increase in daily admissions of patients with breathing complications and the death rate in Chimwemwe constituency fast reaching alarming levels, I would like to find out, on behalf of the people of Chimwemwe, whether the Ministry of Health would consider a declaration of Kitwe as a COVID-19 hot spot, even on a short-term basis, so that a bit more Government resources can be scrambled into the town to help halt what now appears to be an eminent catastrophe.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health has a programme to roll out facilities for COVID-19 management. So, it will implement a programme that will include Kitwe Teaching Hospital (KTH) and other hospitals because the mandate of designating a facility as an isolation centre is in the hands of authorities in the Ministry of Health.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to ask the Vice-President a question on the Public Order Act on behalf of the people of Serenje.

Sir, previous Governments like the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) have not been keen to amend the Public Order Act. Why is it that certain sections of this society want the Patriotic Front (PF) Government to speed up the amendment of the Act?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Governments were very different from the PF Government because, perhaps, since Independence, the PF is the first Government to present the Public Order Act to Parliament and consult all the stakeholders to ensure that, at least, before the 2021 General Elections, this law is amended, where there is a need for amendments. However, it is public knowledge that the idea was thrown to the winds by the opposition parties, especially the United Party for National Development (UPND), which did not want to participate in interrogating the Bill.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

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BILLS

SECOND READING

THE LEGAL AID BILL, 2021

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the requirement to provide legal aid in Zambia emanates from the Constitution, Chapter 1 of the Laws of Zambia, particularly Article 18, in which are enshrined the presumption of innocence and the right to legal representation, among other provisions. It is on this foundation that the current Legal Aid Act, Chapter 34 of the Laws of Zambia, is premised. However, despite the existence of the Legal Aid Act in which the Legal Aid Board is established and mandated to provide legal aid to persons who do not have the means to engage private legal practitioners to represent them in courts of law, the majority of poor and vulnerable citizens have limited access to legal aid services. This reality moved the Government of His Excellency Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu to adopt the National Legal Aid Policy in 2018. The policy seeks to provide for a comprehensive legal aid system that is accessible, effective, credible and sustainable in the country. It also establishes a renewed regulatory and implementation framework for the provision, administration, co-ordination, regulation and monitoring of legal aid in the country. Furthermore, the policy provides for the decentralisation of the Legal Aid Board to the districts. This will be done with the intention of taking legal aid services as close to our people as possible.

Mr Speaker, worth noting, also, is the fact that currently, there is no law that regulates paralegals. Therefore, anyone can provide legal advice. The absence of a regulator for paralegal services creates an inherent risk for unsuspecting members of the public, as they are bound to follow disqualified advice, to their own peril. The policy deals with this problem by establishing a quality assurance framework for paralegals and law degree holders providing legal aid services by stipulating the standards on qualifications, training and registration requirements, as well as the regulation of professional conduct, and the supervisory and disciplinary process.

Mr Speaker, following the adoption of the National Legal Aid Policy in 2018, it became necessary to repeal and replace the current Legal Aid Act in order to address the identified gaps, and set out an effective and efficient legal framework for the provision of legal aid in the country.

Sir, this Bill is very progressive, as it seeks, like I said earlier, to establish a comprehensive legal aid system that is accessible, effective, credible and sustainable to people who cannot access private legal representation. The salient provisions of the Bill, among others, are the continuation of the Legal Aid Board, albeit with redefined functions; the recognition of law clinics as legal aid service providers and their regulation; the registration of practitioners, legal assistants, paralegals and legal aid service providers; and the continued existence of the Legal Aid Fund and the provision for its administration and management.

Sir, the registration of legal assistants, paralegals and legal aid service providers is for the purpose of ensuring quality assurance in legal aid service delivery in the country and, thereby, minimising the inherent risk to members of the public who rely on the legal advice provided.

Sir, additionally, the Bill introduces the regulation of practitioners in private practice who offer to provide legal aid in the country. The registration of practitioners is also aimed at ensuring quality assurance in legal aid service delivery by qualified legal practitioners. Overall, the registration envisaged under the Bill ensures that the qualifications of the various players in legal aid service delivery match their levels of specialisation. Therefore, the scope of the Legal Aid Board is expanded, as the board has the overall mandate to regulate, oversee and monitor the provision of legal aid in the country based on the quality assurance framework and standards provided under the policy.

Sir, the above overview of the proposed law highlights a progressive turn in the provision of legal aid in the country, and it is up to this august House to see to it that the object of the Bill comes to fruition. The Bill is very progressive, and it should be supported because it is the result of wide stakeholder consultation. I emphasise that it is a result of wide stakeholder consultations. The National Legal Aid Policy was adopted by the Government in 2018, yet it is only now, in 2021, that I am proposing an amendment to the law. This is because the intervening time was all spent on consultations; we consulted far and wide, and all those who were willing to make submissions made their submissions to the Ministry of Justice. Therefore, I urge the hon. Members of this august House to wholeheartedly support the Bill.

Sir, let me also say, as Minister of Justice and on behalf of the Cabinet, that we are willing to listen to any progressive proposals for improving the law. Those who have ideas may register them through Parliament, and I will take heed.

Sir, I submit this Bill for approval by Parliament.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference, as set out in Standing Order No. 157(2), the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, National Guidance, Gender Matters and Governance was tasked to scrutinise the Legal Aid Bill No. 1 of 2021, referred to it on Tuesday, 9^th February, 2021.

Sir, as you are aware, the National Legal Aid Policy was developed in 2018 to create a comprehensive implementation framework for the provision of legal aid services by all legal aid service providers, including non-State actors. The Legal Aid Bill No. 1 of 2021, therefore, seeks to establish a renewed regulatory and implementation framework for the provision, administration, co-ordination, regulation and monitoring of legal aid in Zambia.

Sir, while the Bill has generally been supported by stakeholders, there are a few areas of concern that I now wish to highlight.

Sir, the Committee is aware that civil society organisations (CSOs) are registered as non-profit or non-governmental entities, or as companies limited by guarantee. The Committee is, therefore, concerned about the function of the –

Mr Jere was inaudible.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Livingstone, we have lost you.

Mr Jere: Mr Speaker, the Committee is of the considered view that the provision is too broad and may be misconstrued as a duplication of the registration of CSOs. The Committee, therefore, recommends that CSOs and higher education institution law clinics that intend to provide legal aid be accredited, rather than registered, by the Legal Aid Board to ensure minimum parameters, such as qualified staff, a supervision scheme and access to legislation, are in place.

Sir, although the Committee welcomes the representation of the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), a CSO providing legal aid and a higher education institution providing legal aid on the Legal Aid Board, it is very concerned that the board is still predominantly constituted by individuals representing the Government. In this regard, the Committee strongly urges the Executive to ensure that the board has equal representation of both State and non-State actors in order to promote integrity, credibility and public confidence in the institution. The Committee also urges the Executive to consider including among the members of the board the National Prosecution Authority (NPA), which is a major player in the prosecution of criminal matters.

Mr Speaker, the Committee is concerned that the registration of legal practitioners who wish to provide legal services under judicare, legal assistance, paralegals and legal aid service providers will be regulated by the Legal Aid Board, and notes that LAZ is well versed in the regulation of legal services in Zambia. In this regard, it is of the view that registration of legal practitioners who wish to provide legal services under judicare, legal assistants, paralegals and legal aid service providers should be regulated by LAZ, which already has systems in place for ensuring integrity of the legal profession.

Mr Speaker, the Committee wishes to state that the five-year sentence proposed for the offence of offering legal aid services without a certificate of legislation is too harsh. It, therefore, recommends that any person or firm found offering legal aid services without a certificate of legislation be barred from offering legal services for three years or pay a fine not exceeding 300,000 penalty units or both. The justification is that this criminal sanction will result in a reduction in the number of legal aid service providers or stiffening in legal aid services.

Sir, in conclusion, I thank you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support services provided to the Committee during the session. I also thank all the stakeholders for their written and oral submissions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, allow me to state –

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to raise a very serious point of Order on Her Honour the Vice-President.

Sir, Her Honour the Vice-President has the propensity to mislead the nation for very –

Hon. Government Members: Ah! Question!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Leader of Opposition, resume your seat. I will speak first, then, you will continue.

I do not think it is fair to put it the way you have put it; that Her Honour the Vice-President has a propensity to mislead. If you use the word ‘propensity’, you mean that she is misleading more often than not, and I do not think that is a fair statement. I am sure you will agree with me, even as counsel. You and I are counsel.

Withdraw that statement.

Mr Ngulube: Paralegal!

Mr Mwiimbu: I will insult you.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, –

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Resume your seat, Hon. Ngulube.

Hon. Mwiimbu, I would like you to represent the people of Monze Central and your party. Surely, you will also agree further that is not acceptable. Even if you are inclined to do what you have indicated, you cannot do it because the rules do not allow you to do so. If you have a complaint or grievance against that particular hon. Member, there is a way of going about seeking redress. You cannot use your proposed action, namely, to insult, as a course of redress. If you have a grievance, I am available, and my office is available, too.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance, but I also need your protection from undisciplined characters like those.

Hon. Government Members: Ah! Question!

Mr Speaker: I have already indicated –

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members on the right, resume your seats.

This is an august House, and we have ways and means of addressing these issues. There are standard ways for addressing breaches. There are even structures, and you belong to one of those structures, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, which is responsible for the very issues you are raising. It will come under your remit.

Mwiimbu attempted to proceed with his point of order.

Mr Speaker: I will indicate when we can proceed. Not yet. Let us deal with the first issue first.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word “propensity” and state that, on several occasions, when Her Honour the Vice-President is given an opportunity to address the nation, she uses that privilege to mislead the nation.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, resume your seat.

I have given you an opportunity to raise a point of order and, by the definition of a point of order, I would like to believe that you want to bring to my attention a breach. For us to make progress, my counsel to you is that you get straight into the point of order.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Mr Speaker, is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to mislead this House and the nation that we in the United Party for National Development (UPND) are the ones who ensured that the Public Order Act was – the document was not debated here, in Parliament, when, in fact, it is her Government that withdrew the Bill from the House?

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the Hansard is there. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs withdrew the Bill. Was it us who withdrew the Bill?

Mr Speaker, is she in order to mislead the nation? Is she saying that we have the power to withdraw a Bill on behalf of the Government?

Mr Speaker: I reserve my ruling because I want to make a measured response to the point of order. Meanwhile, we proceed.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, allow me to add my voice to the debate on the Legal Aid Bill.

Sir, from the outset, I must state that I support the Bill and that I am not one of those who say something today and, tomorrow, forget that they are the ones who said it and also pretend that they do not know what happened.

Mr Speaker, on the Legal Aid Bill, I wish to state that the measures being taken by the Government are in line with the legal reforms that the people of Zambia have always wanted to see in the provision of legal service. Speaking as a very senior lawyer, I also know that there has been intense debate in the legal professional over some members of the Law Association of Zambia’s (LAZ’s) wanting legal practitioners to take up cases free of charge, at least, one or two cases every year, as a way of helping our people. I also know that paralegals have been in existence for a very long time. However, there has been no law to regulate their conduct.

Mr Speaker, allow me to state that some senior paralegals have been misleading the public on many legal issues. We are aware that when there were Constitutional matters on the Floor of the House, there were people running around the Floor and everywhere telling people that delimitation of constituencies would be done with or without the Constitutional of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 being enacted.

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central!

I am following these debates and the subject at hand. Let us be honest in our debates. You know the subject we are debating. Let us not twist the debates. By the way, we are dealing with the Legal Aid Bill and we are dealing with paralegals, and you and I know that. Probably, you employ a paralegal as well, since you run law firm. So, let us debate paralegals par excellence.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, the name paralegal is close to my heart.

Sir, on the punishment for people who provide paralegal services without authority, I want to draw the hon. Minister’s attention to Section 42(2) of the Legal Practitioners Act, in which the stipulated punishment for an unqualified person, a paralegal, for example, who provides legal services is a fine not exceeding 2,000 penalty units or a period of imprisonment not exceeding six months or both. Further, in Section 43 of the Legal Practitioners Act, the penalty for pretending to be an advocate is a fine not exceeding 3,000 penalty units or a term of imprisonment not exceeding two years or both. So, the five-year imprisonment penalty proposed in the Bill is a bit on the harsh or excessive side when compared with the punishment for people who pretend to be lawyers.

Mr Speaker, there will be a need to amend the Legal Practitioners Act in order for it to provide for paralegals because if the Act remains as it is, paralegal practitioners may find it difficult to know their space. So, the Act needs to define their space in terms of how they become paralegals, what their qualification should be and what their parameters are. It should state where they end in their work; is it just legal advice or drafting documents? We are aware that the legal professional must be heavily regulated in order to protect the public.

Mr Speaker, I support the Bill because it is a good attempt at creating an environment for the members of the public to access better legal services either more cheaply or at no cost at all.

Mr Speaker, I speak as someone who worked for Legal Resources Foundation and Legal Resources Chambers, where I worked with many paralegals. So, I have a lot of knowledge and experience of how paralegals operate. I remember that the Legal Resources Foundation used to train paralegals. It took them to the University of Zambia School of Law. That is the kind of training we would like to have. There are also people who fail at the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE). Maybe, the Act should provide for them to offer paralegal services as opposed to legal practitioners.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I urge – I will not mention his name, but I urge him – to build a better house for his in-laws in Shibuyunji (ordered to be expunged).

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kabwe Central, what has that got to do with the Bill under discussion?

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, legal aid services in relation to police harassment and things like that.

Mr Speaker: No, let it be expunged from the record.

The Minister for Northern Province (Mr Bwalya): Mr Speaker, the Legal Aid Board is an integral part in the dispensation of justice in the Republic of Zambia. More so, the Government has realised that in the rural areas like the Northern Province, the people should have access to legal representation and other legal services. The provisions in this Bill speak to that.

Mr Speaker, it is very important to enhance the laws and the services that the Legal Aid Board offers, and the Government has realised that it needs to do that. I know that the paralegals, as they are referred to, are a bridge between the legal practitioners and those who do not have any knowledge of law. Therefore, paralegals are as important as any other category of staff in the provision of legal services. It is just like the untrained teachers who are able to offer a service in certain areas and bridge a gap. So, it is critical that we provide for their regulation in the law. It is also very important that we support the upcoming legal practitioners.

Mr Speaker, speaking for the Northern Province, as we enact this Bill, it is our expectation that we will beef up the human resource in the Legal Aid Board, especially in the rural areas. There are Legal Aid Board offices in Kasama but, going forward, we would love a situation in which the services are decentralised so that people can have representation even at the district level, where they need the services more. You do know that the various happenings in the country call for people to guide individual citizens on the provisions of the law. Therefore, the Government is really working round-the-clock to ensure the presence of the Legal Aid Board in the various districts to ensure that legal aid services are provided there. So, the Bill, which is well intended, well placed and well meant, must be supported by all of us so that we can, at the end of the day, provide quality legal services and allow people in rural areas to access them.

Sir, issues to do with gender-based violence (GBV) and early marriages are quite rampant in a number of rural areas and, for as long as people do not understand that a person in a certain age group does not fall in the category of people who someone can get married, they may continue with the vice. However, if there are legal practitioners and paralegals and, indeed, an effective Legal Aid Board, we will be able to guide our citizens in the rural areas to understand that even where they want to exercise their rights, such as the rights to assemble and to express themselves, there is always a need for them to observe other provisions of the law. Therefore, the Legal Aid Board is very important.

Mr Speaker, it is also true that this Government is trying to ensure that all the governance bodies and institutions operate effectively in order to provide good governance as enshrined in the Constitution under the National Values and Principles. I, therefore, support the Bill, and I hope and trust that we will be able to enact the provisions of the Bill not only speedily, but also effectively and efficiently so that quality service can be delivered.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I will get the last intervention from the hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, thank you.

Sir, I appreciate the statement issued by the hon. Minister of Justice. I also appreciate the debate by Hon. Jere, the Member of Parliament for Livingstone.

Mr Speaker, I support the Bill, like the hon. Member for Kabwe Central and Deputy Chief Whip, and the hon. Minister for the Northern Province because legal aid is very important in this country. We in the Patriotic Front (PF) are highly sensitised by our President, who has had full exposure to legal aid, urging the rank and file of the party to see to it that vulnerable people who cannot manage legal fees are aided. So, it is gratifying that the Government wants to see to it that measures are brought in tandem with the aspirations of the many people in the Southern Province and other places who would like to go to court because they have been deprived of their land or over many other issues. However, for them to go to court, it is extremely expensive. Therefore, it is important that a legal framework is created for them in terms of State and non-State actors as well as the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) in this country. So, we call on LAZ, particularly, to encourage its members to take up cases pro bono. Yes, they do that, but we need them to take up more of such cases because most Zambians are unable to afford the legal fees because the charges are quite exorbitant. Even hon. Members of Parliament are left on the rocks after going to court.

Sir, let me also urge political parties to play a key role in ensuring that people in the country are provided legal aid. Many a time, people go to politicians and the churches. So, even the Church should play a role in this. However, when politicians are approached, they should be humble, like President Edgar Chagwa Lungu always says. You hear that when some people are approached, the first thing they do is insult. They should not go in that direction. Therefore, I urge politicians – (inaudible).

Sir, I have seen that the United Party for National Development (UPND) has been able to put up a leader who, on many fronts, we have heard insult. I have not mentioned anyone, but it is one of their leaders. They are even proud to front that –

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kanchibiya!

Are we still debating the Legal Aid Bill?

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, we are on course with Legal Aid Bill and are talking about humility in service delivery because we are talking about stakeholders who participate. Now, I am also saying that political parties should be party to this effort, except that they should be humble as they partake in this discourse.

Mr Speaker: You know, hon. Member for Kanchibiya, you have diverted from the subject.

Would you like to wind up?

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, yes, I would like to wind up.

Sir, I thank the Government for bringing up the issue of legal aid, and I urge it to ensure that participants are humble instead of coming with insults and threatening this Christian nation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, in winding up the debate, I thank your Committee for the thorough manner in which it interrogated the Bill. I also thank those who have made contributions, such as the hon. Deputy Chief Whip, the hon. Minister for the Northern Province and the hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, let me just respond to a few issues that have been raised, starting with the membership of the Legal Aid Board.

Sir, I inform the hon. Member who chaired the Committee that the National Legal Aid Policy provides for the establishment of the Legal Aid Board, a Government entity, and we do not intend to relegate it to being run by the private sector or civil society organisations (CSOs). It is the duty of Parliament to ensure that we sustain the operations of the Legal Aid Board. Further, the composition, actually, should not even be an issue because out of ten members, six represent the Government and four represent CSOs. So, we already have quite a good number of members from outside the Government.

Mr Speaker, I have to state that I have listened to the views, and I propose that I be given time to consider the various provisions and suggestions. In keeping with what Her Honour the Vice-President said yesterday in her Motion, this is one Bill that I think will not be considered in one Sitting because I would like to make amendments in accordance with what I have heard in the debates, such as on the issue of sanctions. This, therefore, shows that the intention of Her Honour the Vice-President was not to gag the process of legislating, as I am allowed to propose that I present the Bill later.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 3^rd March, 2021.

THE CYBER SECURITY AND CYBER CRIMES BILL, 2021

The Minister of Transport and Communication (Mr Kafwaya): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read the second time.

Mr Speaker, I sincerely thank you for giving me the opportunity to render a policy statement on the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill No. 2 of 2021.

Mr Speaker, I wish to begin by indicating that the desire of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu is to see to it that all Zambians are safe from any form of attack. It is also the President’s desire to ensure that all environments where Zambians conduct businesses are safe and secure. With the development of information and communication technology (ICT) innovations in the country and globally, the threats that have emerged are as many as the opportunities and, in order to harness these opportunities and, at the same time, counter the threats, it is important to enact this law, as it speaks to the realities of these developments.

Mr Speaker, once enacted, this Bill will provide for the protection of persons against cyber crime and the protection of children online. So, it is difficult to imagine any well-meaning Zambian who would not support a law that aims to give security to victims of crime, whether cyber-related or not. With this law in place, the perpetrators of cyber crime will be either reduced in number or eliminated. Further, the law will domesticate the African Union (AU) Convention on Cyber Security and establish a structure for smooth co-operation with regional and global bodies on cyber developments. Furthermore, with this law, the knowledge and skills required to combat cyber crime will be built in the Republic.

Sir, a safe and secure cyber space will be attractive for the provision of economic and social services. That attractiveness is good for growth of investments which, ultimately, will lead to prosperity of our people through transacting in a safe, secure and trusted environment.

Sir, let me also indicate that the Government is willing to listen to all well-meaning interventions, as any opportunity for improving this Bill is welcome, provided it comes through a legal and laid-down procedure.

Mr Speaker, let me conclude by calling upon all hon. Members of Parliament to support this very progressive Bill. I also commend Captain Muwamba and others who are walking from Lusaka to Livingstone to sensitise people on the way against some of the cyber crimes that will be addressed in this Bill.

I thank you, Sir

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, I thank you and commend the hon. Minister for his policy statement. I also join in appreciating the young Captain Thokozile Muwamba for a very progressive action against cyber bullying.

Mr Speaker, the joint Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill No. 2 of 2021, referred to it on 9^th February, 2021. Let me provide the House with some background to the Bill.

Mr Speaker, the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill stems from the African Union Convention on Cyber Security and Protection of Personal Data, which was adopted by the Assembly of Heads of State and Government of the African Union (AU) in June, 2014, and signed by the President of the Republic of Zambia on 29^th January, 2016. The convention addresses four main areas, namely electronic transactions, personal data protection, electronic commerce, and cyber security and cyber crimes. In this regard, the convention provides guidelines for member States to formulate appropriate legal frameworks that will empower their citizens and make their respective online environments trusted, safe, beneficial and empowering to all individuals.

Mr Speaker, let me indicate that most of stakeholders who appeared before the Committee were in support of the Bill. Let me repeat that: Most of the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee were in support of the Bill. However, they raised a few concerns, some of which I will now highlight.

Mr Speaker, the stakeholders observed that some of the governance structures established in the Bill were not listed among the objects. These include the establishment and definition of the functions of the following institutions:

the Zambia Computer Incidence Response Team (ZCIRT)
the Central Monitoring Centre, and
the Cyber Security Co-ordinating Council.

The Committee, therefore, recommends that the establishment of these institutions and definition of their functions be listed in the objects of the Bill. There is also a need to insert, as an object, the prevention, detection, investigation, prosecution and punishment of cyber crime.

Mr Speaker, the other matter of concern are Clauses 4 and 5, which provide for the establishment of the cyber security regulator and of the authority and its functions, respectively. The best practice in the majority of jurisdictions across the globe is to establish the National Cyber Security and Co-ordination Council as an autonomous institution that reports directly to the Head of State. The placement of the cyber security function very close to the office of the Head of State is a good indicator of the seriousness with which governments treats cyber security and cyber crimes.

Sir, the Committee agrees with the stakeholders who observed that the authority referred to in Clause 4 is the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA), which is established under The Information and Communication Technologies Act No.15 of 2009. This means that ZICTA will, among other functions, constitute the ZCIRT, appoint cyber security inspectors and collaborate with the ministries responsible for security and defence. In this regard, the Committee is of the view that ZICTA’s functions are already too many and that adding more functions will make the authority a super-executive institution, which might result in its having an unlimited independent oversight role. In this regard, the Committee recommends that an independent cyber security regulator be established.

Mr Speaker, Clause 6 provides that the authority will constitute the ZCIRT. However, it does not provide for the composition or tenure of office of the officials of the team. For purposes of transparency and accountability, the Committee recommends that the Bill clearly states how many persons will constitute the ZCIRT and how long they will hold office. While noting that the Bill is progressive, and I want to repeat that for the sake of Hon. Jere, the Member for Livingstone: While noting that the Bill is progressive –

Mr Speaker: Order!

Why have you singled out that hon. Member, hon. Member for Kanchibiya?

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, I was saying that I wanted to repeat what I had said for the sake and benefit of Hon. Jere, the Member of Parliament for Livingstone.

Mr Speaker: Please, do not drag your hon. Colleagues into your debate. Just present your report. I am sure that part is not part of your report.

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the guidance.

Sir, while noting that the Bill is a progressive one, given the threats of terrorism and other cyber crimes, the Committee acknowledges the concerns raised by the stakeholders and, therefore, recommends that the Bill be deferred in order to allow the Ministry of Transport and Communication, as the sponsor of the Bill, and the Ministry of Justice to attend to the concerns.

Sir, in conclusion, the Committee thanks all the stakeholders and the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication for appearing before it. The Committee also places on record its gratitude for the guidance and support provided by the Office of the Speaker and of the Clerk of the National Assembly throughout its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate and oppose the passing of this Bill into law.

Sir, I will be failing in my duties if I do not acknowledge the recommendations of your Committee, which is bi-partisan, as it is made up of hon. Members from the Patriotic Front (PF) and the United Party for National Development (UPND), and Independent hon. Members of Parliament. The members of the Committee are twenty, and they have made a very progressive recommendation to this House; that this Bill be deferred to enable for further consultations. That is the report of your Committee.

Sir, I do recall that last week, when the hon. Minister of Justice made a ministerial statement over the issue of not bringing back the Public Order Act, he made a very important pronouncement, which was that the PF Government does not want to be presenting controversial Bills towards the end of the life of Parliament. However, I have noted with concern that the Government, of which the hon. Minister of Justice is a part, has presented one of the most controversial Bills since Independence, the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill. There has never been a Bill as controversial as this one.

Mr Speaker, members of the public and the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee –

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Give me one minute, hon. Leader of the Opposition.

I am following those running commentaries, some of them coming from persons who are part of the disciplinary matrix of the House, which are likely to provoke and disrupt smooth debates. The debate has opened. So, if you have a contrary view, prepare yourself. Do not debate whilst you are seated.

You may continue, hon. Member for Monze Central.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was indicating that a number of stakeholders who appeared before this Committee and those who could not do so but had the privilege to make comments on the Bill in the public domain have raised very serious issues relating to the violation of the rights of Zambians. For example, this Bill has given the mandate to officials and institutions to intrude into the private lives of Zambians and to listen in to conversations of individuals. This Bill will take away the rights of Zambians to privacy.

Mr Kampyongo: How?

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kabwe Central, resume your seat. I will ask one question before you raise your point of order.

Is the point of order on the hon. Leader of Opposition’s debate? Just confirm that for me.

Mr Ngulube: Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I will not allow it because I will give you the opportunity to respond.

Mr Ngulube: Even after he finishes, Mr Speaker?

Mr Speaker: I have said that the debate is open. He is not having the last word.

Mr Ngulube: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: By the way, no further points of order until next week.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: You may continue, hon. Member for Monze Central.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is a fact that institutions of the Government, the security wings and other agents have been mandated to listen in to conversations and monitor correspondence or information over which there are issues of cyber security. That is what I am saying. As a result of the law that is being proposed to be passed, there is the danger that the privacy of individuals will be violated. We have seen provisions in this law under which police officers and other officers will be given the right to visit and interrupt certain discussions and communications. Therefore, the concerns that have been raised by members of the public are genuine, and this is why the Committee has recommended that the Bill be deferred for further consideration.

Sir, we are aware that similar laws have been applied in Africa and, usually, laws of this nature have been applied by dictatorial governments to suppress the rights of individuals.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: We should not, and I repeat: We should not, allow a situation in which the rights of Zambians will be violated. We have no problem with the Government wanting to pursue a genuine security concerns, but the law for that is already there. Even now, we know that the Government has been pursuing those who have been said to have breached certain laws using technology. However, on this Bill, especially given that it is being brought towards the end of this Session, and also considering that we will have elections this year, we in the Opposition and other stakeholders are apprehensive that it is targeted at the rights of opposition hon. Members. That is the intention of this Bill.

Mr Speaker, we have always said that if our colleagues have a genuine concerns over security and other issues, those issues can be discussed and proper laws passed that would not violate the rights of citizens. Now, we are going back to the days of the one-party State in which a husband feared that his wife would report him to the State. This is what is going to be happening. People will be listening in to conversations and reporting. Why should we allow a situation like that to exist through this system?

Mr Speaker, we have the evidence of how this system has been applied in other countries where, during elections, the government of the day has used the system to stop the transmission of information and results, and jammed the Internet for the benefit of the ruling party. That is what has been happening, and evidence of it abounds in Africa. I hear the Hon. Dr Malama when he says that this is a result of an African Union (AU) treaty, but we know that African leaders are birds of the same feather. That is how it is. They never condemn wrong things happening in other countries unless outsiders come and condemn. That is the tragedy of Africa. We have seen very serious violations of human rights in certain countries, but African leaders have kept quiet because they do similar things in their countries. So, that the AU has agreed with this law should not be the basis on which we should agree with what it has proposed. We should agree with what is good for the country.

Mr Speaker, I know that my hon. Colleagues have made up their minds that this law must be passed, but the people of Zambia must listen and know that once this law is passed, their rights will be violated. They should also know that the ones violating their rights through this law is the PF. Let that be known.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I oppose the passing of this legislation in its current form and urge my hon. Colleagues to do so.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it is very important that we remain focussed. Consultations have been held both at the individual level and using our Parliamentary processes in which a number of people were called upon and hon. Members of Parliament had the right to make submissions on issues with which they were not happy. Most importantly, when you are not happy with a certain article, section or provision of a Bill, you have the right to move an amendment within the framework of our operations as Parliamentarians. Therefore, it is very important that the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central identifies those areas and moves amendments. That is the process for enacting laws. It is critical, from my point of view, as Minister for the Northern Province, that we protect Zambians from cyber crimes.

Mr Speaker, I have some examples of cyber crime, which include e-Mail and Internet fraud; identity fraud, in which personal information is stolen and used wrongly; theft of financial or card payment data; theft and sale of corporate data; and cyber extortion, that is, demanding money to prevent a threatened attack. These are just some of the crimes from which the Government of the Republic of Zambia is trying to protect the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, cyber crimes also include cyber bullying and terrorism. Terrorism is now being committed using the Internet through e-Mails and communication systems of any country, and we are part of the global village. No wonder, the African Union (AU) convention addressed this issue, and most African leaders were party to it. It is in this country where I have heard hon. Members of opposition political parties lament that we take long to domesticate certain conventions and treaties. Now, this Government is saying that we need to move together with the rest of the world.

Mr Speaker, cyber crime is does not affect Zambia or Africa only, but the whole world. So, it is important that we all calm down, practice level-headedness and look at the Bill from a positive point of view. There can never be a place in the world where you can have thorough consultation on every matter, even on matters that require urgency, and this issue is very urgent. People are extorting money, blackmailing people and committing serious crimes the using Internet, phones and other gadgets in the cyber world. The sky is now polluted with people who do not mean well.

Mr Speaker, it is important that the people of the Northern Province, whom I stand for, are protected. Privacy will not be impeded. Even now, the world over, there are gadgets able to detect certain things as people speak. In fact, in advanced economies, all public places have cameras that see everything that one sees and record everything that is done. We are not different from any other country. Further, we operate in an information world and, for as long as we fail to embrace information and communication technology (ICT), we will remain behind. So, we need to start on everything so that we are able to move together with the rest of the world.

Sir, cyber crime is real, and people have been put in a lot of trouble because some people used the airwaves wrongly to extort money or used other people’s data and played around with pictures of certain individuals to impersonate those people. Therefore, it is very important that we protect Zambians from those types of crimes. For this reason, this Bill must be allowed to pass.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Fube (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, am I audible?

Mr Speaker: Yes, you are. Proceed.

Mr Fube: Hello, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Proceed. You are audible.

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker –

Oh, my God! Mr Speaker –

Mr Speaker: Proceed.

Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this important Bill on behalf of the people of Chilubi.

Hello, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker –

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, do not concentrate on greeting me. Debate.

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

Mr Fube: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Fube was inaudible.

Mr Speaker: The connectivity is very unstable. I am afraid we have to move on, hon. Member for Chilubi.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I commend the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication for presenting this Bill to the House. As the House may recall, I presented the Electronics and Electronic Communications Bill to the House in 2009 when I was in the ministry.

Mr Speaker, technology, especially digital technology, has improved tremendously and become very complicated. There is clearly a need for new laws. So, these laws that are being presented to the House are very progressive and in the interest of our nation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, with regard to the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill, the International Telecommunications Union (ITU) is concerned that cyber crime has become so complicated and extremely sophisticated that it can cripple economies, the operations of the Government and individuals’ lives. Therefore, it is important for governments to take steps to protect their nations and businesses from cyber crime. That is why we have to read and understand what is going on in the world, especially in the digital technology world. The cyber eco-system has become very sophisticated and we, as a country, have to take measures to protect ourselves.

Mr Speaker, I can count twenty types of crimes on the cyber space. For example, there is cyber stalking, data diddling, phishing, child solicitation and abuse, malware, Internet theft and electronic money laundering. These are the kinds of crimes that really affect our lives, as individuals; they affect our freedoms and businesses, as individuals. These are also the kinds of crimes that can cripple the websites of governments, companies and various institutions. Clearly, they can leave an economy down on its knees and make institutions, even our Parliament here, inoperable. It is important, therefore, to take measures to protect ourselves against cyber terrorism and all types of cyber crime.

Mr Speaker, if you look at developed countries like the United States of America (USA) and read what is going on there in terms of cyber security measures, you will see that they are strengthening their cyber security laws to protect citizens, companies and their governments. So, this is important. It is my hope, therefore, that hon. Members of Parliament will search their souls and see what is in the interest of the country in terms of protecting the operations of all institutions of the Government and the lives of individuals. We now live in a digital technology age in which cyber terrorism is at the centre of our lives. So, we cannot just sit back and let these things happen because, one day, the entire Government machinery and the economy may be crippled and our lives made miserable. We must, therefore, take steps to protect ourselves through a Bill like this one.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Subulwa (Sioma): Mr Speaker, thank you for according the people of Sioma an opportunity to be heard.

Mr Speaker, the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill is very progressive; it is one of the Bills I have been looking forward to seeing tabled in the House. Today, it is here.

Mr Speaker, Zambia is among countries that have not enacted this law. Many other countries, such as Kenya, the United Kingdom (UK) and the United States of America (USA) have already enacted it. This law is cardinal because it safeguards the freedoms of citizens as they perform online activities. As things stand, cyber crimes are so rife that people are losing money through online and mobile communications scams. I have an example of that having happened among my people in Mutomena. A man reported such a crime and asked me to help him because he was a victim of a scam. As I stand to debate today, I feel this is the only way I can help my people in Sioma and that man in Mutomena who, unfortunately, lost his money through a scam.

Mr Speaker, the law allows for businesses to host their critical data in the country. On this, I take Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa’s words as my own. If we do not take these issues seriously, we do not know when we will be hit badly. So, I feel that certain progressive amendments and recommendations that people have made can be included in this particular Bill.

Sir, this Bill will accelerate information and communication technology (ICT) development in the country through job creation and skills development.

Mr Speaker, as citizens and Lawmakers who have been given the opportunity to represent millions of people, we need to differentiate between politics and very important issues. We should be objective in our debates because what we, as leaders, say in this nation has a big impact on the reaction that we get from the general public. Therefore, if we tell the people that this is a bad Bill that will take away their privacy, misleading people like that, we are not going to progress as a country. We should know that if we are to progress as a country, we have to learn to be objective and not seek to gain political mileage at any cost and at any point. When serious issues like these are presented, we as, Lawmakers, should take them seriously.

Mr Speaker, I hope my fellow leaders here in Parliament will take this as free advice.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to speak on this very serious Bill.

Mr Speaker, when people do not speak your language or toll your line, it does not mean that they are saying that your position is not progressive. The Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill is a very important and progressive Bill. However, one thing we must understand, as hon. Members of Parliament, is why the Committee recommends the deferment of this thing. As hon. Members of Parliament, that is one important aspect we should have been looking at instead of just saying that this thing, in its current state, is a good thing. We agree with all the progressive points that are in this Bill.

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mwembezhi!

For clarity of the record, a verbatim record for that matter, the Hansard, refer to it as a ‘Bill’, not a “thing”.

Laughter

Mr Jamba: Mr Speaker, thank you for the guidance.

Sir, the Bill has been referred back to the proposers or the Ministry of Transport and Communication, by the Committee, which had more time to analyse its contents than us who are seated in this House. I want to think that the Committee comprised many hon. Members who saw that this thing …

Laughter

Mr Jamba: … needed consensus for us to fight cyber crime and that we do not infringe on other people’s rights. It is better for this Bill to be sent back. That way, it can be looked at before it is brought back. Before that, there is a need for further consultations.

Mr Speaker, I want to give an example. The Public Order Act, requires that if you want to hold a meeting, you inform the police. What have the police done today? It has abused that provision in that it thinks that for anybody to hold a meeting, he or she is supposed to get permission from it. So, what guarantee do we have that when this thing …

Laughter

Mr Jamba: … is passed, people are not going to come and search me in the name of cyber bullying and make others suffer? After all, the Bill would have been passed.

Mr Speaker, if people are saying there is a need to sit down and relook at this thing, it does not mean that this thing not progressive. We are saying that the Bill is progressive and good but, for now, let us refer it back to the Ministry of Transport and Communication so that all the clauses that are supposed to be looked into are dealt with. When that is done, the general populous can be informed. If possible, the Bill should be published in the newspapers so that everyone can read its contents. People have the tendency to accept things at face value; they do not want to look at the details. How can people say that some people are going to be monitoring whatever they will be monitoring? Who is going to ascertain which data is good or dangerous? Who is going to ascertain such things?

Mr Speaker, all I am saying is that your Committee, which is very honourable, has recommended that this Bill be deferred to allow for further consultations. Why, then, are we insisting on pushing it forward? Do we have a hidden agenda? I know of communities – and I am talking about some other countries, not Zambia – where during elections, people conduct parallel vote tabulation (PVT). Because of this Bill, people will be prevented some people from carrying out PVT during elections, as they will be told that doing so is not allowed, and that will disturb some people. When people go to polling stations to get data, they will not be allowed to do so on the grounds that they are not among those mandated to collect such data. So, the issue here is that this Bill should go back to the ministry.

Mr Speaker, I commend the hon. Minister for doing a good job because cyber bullying and stealing are very rampant. However, for now, we are saying that we should wait, which is a good thing. It is just like when you have a daughter who is thirteen years old and a man comes and says, ‘He who finds a wife finds a good thing’, are you going to marry your daughter off at thirteen just because marriage is good? Not at all. What we are saying is that this is a good Bill, but it is premature. So, it should go back to the ministry and the able hon. Minister will look at it together with his team and that of the Ministry of Justice. Then, he will bring it back to Parliament. So, why the rush? Even those people who are marching for this, why are they doing that when they do not do it when people are beaten at Soweto and Intercity Bus Terminus? This is very bad.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I have to state from the outset that the people of Chama South are very happy to see this Bill.

Sir, I will be very quick in my debate. So, I will quickly talk about the objects of the Bill, which are to:

ensure the provision of cyber security in the republic;
provide for the protection of persons against cyber crimes;

Mr Speaker, what is wrong with these provisions? I know that today’s warfare is high technology (hi-tech) and fought on cyber space. Most economies have been crippled and companies have been brought down because of hi-tech people accessing what they are not supposed to access. So, our people need to be protected against such crimes.

provide for child online protection;

Mr Speaker, there is information and communication technology (ICT) training in schools.

b. facilitate identification, declaration and protection of critical information infrastructure;

Mr Speaker, as a country, we need to be protected. Our colleagues in the West are now talking about Fifth Generation (5G) mobile network, meaning all the industries will operate electronically; they will be automated. Therefore, if there is … (inaudible) … which is not known by our Government and security agencies, how safe are we going to be as a country?

Mr Speaker, it is really unfortunate that the United Party for National Development (UPND) associates everything with its impending loss on 12^th August, 2021. To it, this Bill is there to –

Mr Speaker: Order, hon .Member for Chama South!

Focus on the Bill.

Mr Mung’andu: Thank you for the guidance, Mr Speaker.

Sir, the Bill also talks about provision or collection and preservation of evidence of computer and network related crimes. Many people have lost a lot of money to fraudulent activities in this country. Let us take Airtel Money and a number of other services, for example. We have heard how people are being swindled and how very difficult it has been for them to trace the culprits because there are no adequate laws to deal with such vices. This law gives us hope that the people who steal using computers and other electronic platforms will be convicted.

revise the admission, in criminal matters, of electronic evidence;

Mr Speaker, currently, it is very difficult to have cases of electronic crime admitted in court. This law provides for the production of evidence for Judges to admit electronic evidence. in the courts of law. If, for example, the hon. Member for … the Judas Iscariot for Mwembezhi, wants to hide his criminal cyber activities, the security agencies will be able to bring evidence before the court and say, ‘Judas Iscariot, this is what you did and this is your device’.

Mr Speaker: Order hon. Member for Chama South!

Withdraw that.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, I withdraw it and replace it with ‘an individual, maybe, from Mwembezhi’.

Sir, the security agencies, with the prosecution agency –

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chama South, I guided you earlier to focus on the debate. If you have exhausted your points and issues, give way to others.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, I am well guided.

In short, Sir, this country needs the measures provided for in the Bill at (f).

provide for the registration of cyber security services providers;

Mr Speaker, in most countries, it is the private companies that deal with cyber security. Many of the anti-hacking programmes and anti-viruses software programmes developed by private individuals and companies. This Bill will provide for the registration of such private companies in our country. In short, it will also expand the expertise horizon when it comes to ICT development in our country. So, given this background, it is very difficult to understand why our hon. Colleagues in the Opposition are opposing this Bill because of their own imaginations.

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chama South!

I have guided you consistently to focus on the Bill. There is an hon. Member of Parliament from the United Party for National Development (UPND) who supported the Bill. He is a Parliamentarian. So, focus on the content of the Bill.

You may continue.

Mr Mung’andu: Mr Speaker, with these few observations, I urge everyone to support this progressive Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me this opportunity to make a few comments on this very important Bill, whose report is before this august House.

Mr Speaker, I will start from the final part of the report, which states that:

“While noting that the Bill is a progressive one, …”

Mr Jamba: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Give me one minute.

Hon. Member for Mwembezhi, you may not have been online when I indicated that there will be no more points of order today. Spare yourself the trouble you are going through.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I have heard people make reference to the recommendations of the report, and I want to start from there.

Sir, your Committee submits that:

“While noting that the Bill is a progressive one, given the threats of terrorism and other cyber crimes, the Committee acknowledges the concerns raised by stakeholders and, therefore, recommends that the Bill be deferred in order to allow the Ministry of Transport and Communication, the sponsor, and the Ministry of Justice to attend to the concerns raised.”

Mr Speaker, here, we have a standard practice, and the reason these Bills are sent to the Committees is for them to be scrutinised and for the stakeholders to make recommendations. We have a procedure that is followed here. Therefore, we are not going to defer this Bill because we shall have enough space for the Ministry of Justice and the sponsoring ministry to attend to the concerns that have been raised by your Committee and the proposed amendments. We have to conclude this Bill as scheduled.

Sir, I want to make it very clear – and I also adopt part of the submission by the hon. Member for Nalikwanda as mine – that the matters we are debating today are global concerns. The hon. Member made reference to the International Telecommunications Union (ITU), which has recommended that as all the countries in the world embrace information and communication technology (ICT), they put in place the necessary legal frameworks. Equally, all the service providers, including Facebook, which are working closely with law enforcements, in case some people did not know, have recommended that we have a robust legal frameworks that they can use to help nations track down the people who abuse the cyber space.

Mr Speaker, which institution has been spared in this country? This institution in which we in has not been spared either. Without drawing you into my debate, I would like to point out that we learnt about your status through social media despite your being our Presiding Officer. People are not humane in this country. Yes, you are a leader of this institution, but you have a family and people who are emotionally attached to you. Therefore, we cannot allow people to attack your space like that. The Judiciary has equally not been spared. Now, the people on the Bench have to think of the talk with which they will be bombarded on the cyber space if they pass this or that judgement.

Sir, we have the responsibility to protect the Head of State as well. In this regard, I must commend the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces and the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) Commander for allowing that young lady to walk to Livingstone to sensitise the people on cyber bullying. Brave as she is, because it takes bravery and intelligence to achieve what she has achieved, as a fighter pilot, she could have been brought down by cyber bullies.

Sir, we know that some people have institutionalised propaganda. I was warning my hon. Colleagues on your left that the propaganda they were institutionalising even on their leadership structures would come back to haunt them. The only people who should be worried today are those who subscribe to notorious platforms like Koswe because they will write their various articles for the last time. Those who subscribe to the other platforms that have servers outside the country, we have an idea of who the culprits are, and we cannot allow them to continue terrorising citizens in the manner they have been doing. So, this law has come at the right time, and we in the Government are not going to defer it to any other time. We shall conclude it within the framework of our schedule.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I commend the Government for bringing forward this Bill, and I note that it is not the only Bill of its nature that has been presented to this House. Recently, we were discussing a Bill to do with the removal of Government officials from boards. These are very courageous Bills. In the past, some of those Bills would not have been considered for fear of losing elections. So, I think this Government is trying to treat the country in a proper manner. Having said that, I thank the hon. Leader of the Opposition for his participation in this debate yesterday. I was afraid that he might not participate at all.

Mr Speaker, I must say that I am opposed to deferring this Bill because I do not see any danger at all in proceeding with it. I will state why, and I am going to do so in a very basic manner.

Mr Speaker, the Government is a government, and I want people to be very clear about this. There once was the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government, then there was the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government and, now, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. After the PF Government, God knows which Government will be next. All Governments that come in make laws for the good of the country, not for individuals in Government of the day. That is the practice all over the world. The United States of America (USA), England, the European Union (EU), China and Russia all make laws. Every country makes laws for the good of its citizens, and the laws make the governments to govern properly. Without laws, a country will be pushed into lawlessness. When a law cannot be applied fairly, it is revoked. So, all the laws made apply to everyone in the country.

Mr Speaker, it is not right to say that this law will be used to eavesdrop on the Opposition or some people. We all know that God listens to everything say both in private and in public, but I have not heard anyone raise an objection to that because we know that God is Sovereign, and that he owns the world. We, the people, give power to the Government to govern the country. So, the Government does that on our behalf. God is our protector and he protects everyone. That is why no one has ever complained about God infringing on their privacy. Those who have refused to recognise God as the overall protector of the country have involved themselves in crime, and that is why the world is in this state; some people do not want to accept that God is the creator of the world and, therefore, Sovereign. In the same manner, those who do not want the Government to rule in a particular manner and feel they need to protect citizens from bad people, are the people who perpetuate crime because they just want to hide behind excuses and create difficulties for the people in the Government. They criticise everything that the Government does even though they do not have any evidence of bad things being done because they are driven by falsehood. They just have this preponderance of wanting to bring down whoever is in the Government and forgetting that the Government is the Government, and that it is there for everyone.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is meant to protect everyone, not only those in the Government. The Government can change, like I said earlier. So, I do not understand why we should even defy it. If anything, I think we have even delayed the enactment of the Bill because it could have made people act responsibly for the good of this country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I would like to announce that I have received requests to debate on the Zoom platform from the hon. Minister of Gender, the hon. Member for Chirundu, the hon. Member for Kasenengwa, the hon. Member for Lubansenshi, the hon. Minister for North-Western Province, the hon. Minister for Luapula Province, the hon. Member for Serenje, the hon. Member for Chienge and the hon. Member for Kalabo Central in addition to the twenty-two hon. Members on the Electronic Chamber (e-Chamber) list. Therefore, I will alternate between the two lists.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I say that I fully support the recommendation of the Committee, which is that this Bill be deferred for further consultations.

Mr Speaker, I also want to say that as members of the Opposition, we have supported many Bills. In fact, I would say that we have accepted 95 per cent of the Bills that the Government has presented to the House. Therefore, on the very few on which we have urged caution and further consultations, such as the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019 and this one, I think it is necessary that the Executive listens very carefully, especially given that the stakeholders and members of the public have also indicated discomfort with the provisions being proposed, as reflected by the report of the Committee. This Bill finds itself in the category of those on which we are calling for further consultations, and it is very important that the Government listens to what the people are saying, as reflected in the Committee’s report, because if it ignores what the people are saying, then, whose interests is it serving? It means our colleagues are serving their own interests if they insist on going ahead with making these laws when the people for whom the laws are being made have called for more consultations.

Mr Speaker, on this Bill, the issue is not about whether it should be rejected or not, and we are not rejecting it. All we are saying is that we should consult further. No one is debating against the good and straightforward provisions like protecting children. However, just like the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019, the good provisions have been mixed with some dangerous ones that need to be dealt with. For example, for the first time in the history of this country, we will have a law that empowers the Government to listen in on what citizens are saying in private conversations. So, when we talk to our mothers or sisters, somebody can listen in on our phones.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: That is what this law is saying. I wonder whether those who are saying, “Question!” have read the Bill that was presented on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Liuwa!

Just concentrate on your debate.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Sir, we have a law, for the first time, that enables the Government to listen in to what private citizens say on their phones and for e-Mails of members of the public to be perused for Government agencies to see what they contain.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: That is what the law says.

Sir, “14”, I do not know whether you lawyers call it ‘Section 14’, but that fourteen in bold numbers, gives the Minister responsible for telecommunications unlimited powers to do anything that he wants, as we were in an emergency situation or a national emergency. The people are saying that in that the provision enables the Minister to even shut down the Internet. So, he can even shut down the telephones because telephones and the Internet are now the same thing. Because of that provision, the Minister can literally do anything.

By the way, Sir, even in the Government system, there is confusion on what belongs where. Is this Bill to do with information and communication technology (ICT) or security? It is not known. So, let the Bill go back for further consultations so that these issues can be ironed out properly.

I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Just for the record, and for the benefit of those who will debate next, what the hon. Member referred to is ‘Clause 14’. That is the terminology applied in relation to a Bill. Once a Bill is enacted into law, the clauses become sections.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, allow me to allay the fears of our hon. Colleagues who are opposing this Bill by stating that the Bill is meant to prevent cyber crime. Therefore, if they are not involved in crime, why are they worried?

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kabwe Central!

This is a law-making body, and the concerns being raised and debated are expressed in a representative capacity. Everybody seated here is representing a constituency, not protecting personal interests. Further, in all fairness, every Member in this august House is honourable. However, by your debate, you are suggesting or insinuating criminality. That is the implication. We are here to make laws on behalf of the people of Zambia. I would like to stress that. I know that this is a very topical, emotive and sensitive subject, but let us be objective. I am sure, Counsel, that it is easy for you, since you earn your livelihood by arguing objectively, that it will be easier for you to follow my counsel. I hope.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, thank you for the wise counsel.

Sir, I want to be very brief and refer those opposed to the Bill to its objectives. The first one is to ensure the provision of cyber security in the republic. So, cyber security is very important. People are agreeable that cyber security breaches can cripple nations, companies and businesses, and the Government is moving in tandem with the rest of the world in ensuring that cyber security is achieved.

Mr Speaker, those who are saying that the Government will be listening in to our phone calls or monitoring them when they are bathing must learn to read. Clause 28 of this Bill is very clear in stipulating that the Government cannot do that without involving the High Court. The Attorney-General of the republic will be given power to issue a written consent. So, it will happen through the High Court. Therefore, a person cannot say that because of this, the Government will do this and that. The Government will do what the law is going to empower it to do.

Mr Speaker, those who are involved in propaganda, cyber bullying and such things, and are scared of this law for that reason, they must know that their time has come because they will be imprisoned for ten years. Therefore, for all those who are subscribed to Koswe and Zambian Watchdog, and all those who insult people, the law has come and we welcome it with both hands.

Mr Speaker, let me address those who are saying that the hon. Minister has been given power to be doing this or that. The clause referred to by Hon. Dr Musokotwane gives the Minister powers to make regulations, not to do what the hon. Member said.

Mr Speaker, we just want to say that the rest of the world has now known that one does not have to be in Zambia to break the law in Zambia. Under cyber crime, one can be in Zambia, but break the law in the United States of America (USA) or in be in Russia, but break the law in Zambia. So, without this law, all of us who have money in banks are not safe. Those of us who have mobile phones are not safe.

Mr Speaker, the law proposes lawful interception of communications. The Government has no duty in people’s private lives. Therefore, all those who are scared that, maybe, when it comes to elections, the Internet will be shut down, should just wait and lose properly without accusing the Government. They have been losing even without this law. So, what will stop them from losing again this time?

Mr Speaker, I am also mindful of the fact that there has been a lot of speculation in the debate by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, who mentioned that the Government will now take away the privacy of the people, if I am not mistaken. I like him very much and, when I grow up, I want to be like him.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: However, he said that the Government will now take away the privacy of the people. He must have not read the Bill because, if he did, he would have noticed that it talks about crime, not privacy. I also know that as my role model, –

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kabwe Central!

As much as you are entitled to cross reference your debate to your colleague’s, do not debate him as an individual. Just refer to the views he expressed and address them accordingly.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Sir, Clause 26 makes it an offence for a person to intercept, attempt to intercept or procure another person to intercept any communication. We are aware that there are surrogates of some political party who are busy intercepting phone calls, WhatsApp chats and Facebook messages. They do anything to break the law and look relevant to some political party. However, we assure them that the law has come now, and it is ten years imprisonment, the equivalent of two Presidential terms. So, they must be mindful that all these laws that are coming up now are to catch up with the problem that we have had with cyber bullying and people insulting others or trying to use propaganda to portray themselves as the people’s favourite.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to thank Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, my role model, for having debated without insulting, contrary to the threat he made earlier.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I have moved to the Zoom list now.

The Minister of Gender (Ms Phiri): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity you have given to me to add my voice to the debate on this serious and progressive Bill.

Sir, this Bill, which will protect many of us, especially women, who are suffering at the hands of cyber bullies, is too innocent for hon. Members to pull at each other over it. We are talking about crime, not privacy. We are talking about people committing cyber crime, not privacy. So, the nation should not be misled. People are committing numerous crimes on the cyber space because they can hide in fake names or in the name of the Internet. If we let this Bill be enacted, it will protect us in many ways. Right now, people are crying because they have lost colossal sums of money to cyber crime while women’s nakedness has been exposed on the cyber space. Further, some prominent leaders, including opposition leaders, have been insulted in cyber space. If enacted, this Bill will protect even those who are opposing it now.

Sir, the Bill is innocent. Were it a Bill that would allow the invasion of people’s privacy, even we in the Government would be concerned and we would not have come up with such a Bill. So, this Bill is innocent and, as women, we welcome it because we have suffered at the hands of cyber criminals. We say that this is a welcome move and that it has nothing to do with anything else other than protecting humanity.

Mr Speaker, crimes are being committed even internationally and hidden under the guise of cyber connectivity. Technology is the order of the day and it has come to stay. Even when doing good things, we still depend on it. So, if we are innocent and have no evil intentions, I do not think it is right for people to oppose this innocent and –

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

I have already guided on this line of reasoning. This Bill is being debated in a representative capacity.

Ms Phiri: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Sir, all I can say is that this Bill is very innocent and, therefore, demands massive support from both the right and the left. As leaders of the people, we have to give what is best to the people we represent.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Syakalima (Chirundu): Mr Speaker, in contributing to the debate, I must state, from the outset, that this is a bad Bill and that if enacted into law, it would be a bad law.

Sir, in the first place, we are being reminded by your Committee that this Bill requires to be deferred so that there are more consultations on it.

Mr Speaker, you Committee subjected itself to many witnesses who came to make submissions to it. So, if it decides that the Bill must be deferred, who are we here to not agree? The witnesses who came to the Committee represented individuals, institutions and, maybe, I should say the country. To those of us who represent the people, the people of Chirundu in my case, our people are saying that this Bill must be pierced until it bleeds to death.

Mr Speaker, we all know about cyber bullying and cyber crime, but in addressing them, one does not inject into the Bill other things that will be inconsistent with the law of the land, the Constitution because we do not want Bills or laws that are inconsistent with our Constitution. The Constitution gives us rights like the right to privacy, but this Bill will establish the central monitoring system, whose officers will be listening in when I am talking to my wife. What type of law will that be? It is unacceptable, unjust and as immoral as anything can ever be. Privacy is very important because we were all born with inalienable rights, and no one can take away those rights apart from the law itself. That law of the land protects individuals. So, we cannot continue on this path.

Mr Speaker, let me remind my hon. Colleagues that they should make laws as if they were leaving office tomorrow. Otherwise, the same laws will haunt them. History in Africa is loaded with people who made bad laws and were haunted by those laws when they left government. Every time we make a law, we must think about what would happen to us tomorrow if we left office. Bad laws can haunt us when we leave power. Time is nigh. Our colleagues do not know what will happen in August.

Sir, there are hon. Ministers who are fond of threatening people. Every time they wake up and speak, they are threatening individuals. How can they be threatening citizens? They were not elected to do that.

Mr Speaker, I am of the view that this Bill should be referred back to the people in accordance with the Committee’s recommendation because people want to be governed in a manner that is consistent with the law of the land, and that is the Constitution. We should never make laws that target individuals or certain institutions. If people can abrogate the Constitution, how about these simple laws? We have seen how the police have been killing people, and this law is open-ended. A security officer can easily go to an organisation and do all sorts of things. We were not born yesterday; we have seen these things happen, especially under the Patriotic Front (PF). The party has killed all the institutions of governance and, today, it has brought this draconian law. We will not accept it because it is not acceptable.

Mr Speaker, we were just talking about morality, patriotism and other values recently. What is moral about doing the things provided for in this Bill? In this Bill, bad things have been mixed with good things like the provision on protecting children. It is not acceptable. Our colleagues should not put into the Bill things that sound and look good to the unsuspecting ear and eye of our people. It is not right. Let us do things that will not make us abrogate the Constitution. I, therefore, plead with my hon. Colleagues to defer this Bill as recommended by the Committee.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I have listened very attentively to the numerous debates on this Bill.

Sir, all those who have debated in favour of deferment have said that the Committee has suggested deferment, but without referring to the reasons the Committee made that suggestion. Nowhere in the report does the Committee say that we did not consult. What the Committee says is that we defer so that the concerns expressed by stakeholders are addressed by the sponsoring hon. Minister and the Minister of Justice, and I concede that there are matters that need to be considered. However, I want to allay the fear that we do not have the time in which to consider those concerns because we do. Even without deferring the consideration of this Bill, the Ministry of Justice is on top of things, and we shall take into account the concerns raised by the stakeholders. This is the word I put on the Floor of the House as a pledge: I will address all the concerns that have been raised.

Sir, the trouble I have with this debate is that except for one, and I want to respect the hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa for being the only one who attempted to point at a particular clause with which he has a problem, for those who are opposing this Bill, it has been business as usual. They have talked sunrise to sunset without pin-pointing any particular clause that is problematic in this law. How do we legislate like that? We cannot legislate in a vacuum as a Legislators, especially veterans like me. We are expected to mention clauses with which we have problems and propose amendments to them. That is when we will be listened to. To borrow a popular word that I love very much, to come to Parliament and do cilingalinga or talk heedlessly while expecting others to listen is to be mischievous.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Withdraw the word “mischievous”, hon. Member. It is unparliamentary.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, sorry. That is totally ingenious.

Sir, we ought to come here and tell the people why we have a problem with the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill, and mention the particular clauses that contradict the Constitution or another law instead of saying that the whole Bill has problems and that the Government should not deceive the people who do not see. Who cannot read the Bill? All of us can read it.

Sir, as the Minister responsible for legislation, I assure the country that the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication took more than a year in working on this Bill. I am revealing something I should not, but I got to a point where I was pushing him and saying, “Hon. Minister, you are taking too long. The people of Zambia need to be protected from these serious crimes.”

Sir, if you look at the clause that the hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa spoke about, you will see that it prescribes exactly the circumstances under which the hon. Minister will come up with measures to protect society. It talks about protecting essential services. Surely, if the Government notices utilisation of the cyberspace that is to the peril of the provision of essential services, it has a duty to protect its citizens, and defend national security. If we find that there are some people who are intruding in the cyber systems of the defence and security of the Government, we surely should not fold our arms for fear of some people saying that we are interfering in their bedroom issues if we put measures in place to curtail that. Surely, to come and speak about matters like that is to trivialise matters of great national importance.

Sir, I assure you and all discerning citizens of Zambia who have cared to peruse the report of the Committee that we are going to comb through all those concerns. When we come back on Tuesday or Wednesday, next week, the hon. Minister for Transport and Communication, the sponsor of this Bill, will demonstrate how we want to take into account all those concerns.

Sir, let me end by encouraging my hon. Colleagues to counter-reference this law Bill with the existing Act, in which they will discover that some of the issues they are complaining about already exist in the law. The prohibition of cyber crimes is already provided for, except that we are now codifying it in one piece of legislation. I appeal, especially, to my hon. Colleague, the Member of Parliament for Monze Central, in his capacity as the Leader of the Opposition, to spend some time this weekend looking at the Electronic Communications and Transactions Act of 2009 and compare it with this Bill. If he does, he will conclude that we are not bringing in too many new things.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kangombe (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, thank you for according the people of Sesheke an opportunity to share a word on this Bill.

Mr Speaker, I want to draw the attention of this august House to the advice from the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) and the recommendations of the Committee on the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill that we are debating today, which are the same that we.

Mr Speaker, there were many stakeholders who came through and made submissions to the Committee, and their recommendations are very categorical. In this regard, I want to state that we in the United Party for National Development (UPND), and speaking for myself, are not saying that the Bill is bad. What we are saying is that we must allow the due process of wider consultation to take place. Many issues have been noted in the report as to why this Bill should be deferred for further consultation. For example, Clause 11 of the Bill is open-ended. Indeed, a search warrant can be issued at any time. However, we have seen on many occasions, especially in relation to the Public Order Act, that even the provisions of the Act itself is infringed on by the law enforcers. We are of the opinion that such situations could arise if we leave this Bill open-ended.

Sir, the command centre that is going to be created and given powers by the hon. Minister to enforce any laws related to the Cyber Security and Cyber Crimes Bill has been given unlimited powers even to monitor phone calls. It can even act on mere symbols. Clause 54 of this Bill is very categorical. Let me read the clause so that you understand why the Bill ought to be deferred so that it can be polished. It reads:

“A person who with intent to compromise the safety and security of any other person publishes information or data presented in a picture, image, text, symbol, voice or any other form in a computer system whether such information or data is false, deceptive, misleading or inaccurate commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine …”

Mr Speaker, symbols can be interpreted in different ways.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kangombe: So, to leave the provision so open-ended by stating that the use of any symbol that can be deemed offensive by law enforcement is an offence is unfair. How I use a symbol, depending on my culture and upbringing, may differ in meaning from what other people may deem it to be. It is for that reason that we, like Hon. Douglas Syakalima said, want to create laws that will govern and protect everyone even when we leave power.

Sir, this law, as it is framed, is bad, although its intention is good. So, I urge my hon. Colleagues to move away from party lines and enact these laws to serve us regardless of political affiliations. We should not protect only our interest, but also protect the interests of the people of Zambia and the future of this country.

Mr Speaker, we have heard some hon. Members in Parliament categorically state that certain web logs (blogs) are going to be shut down once this law is passed. It is not all information that one relays that has to be good. Some information might be good and some other bad, but we have to sit and evaluate, not issuing threats even prior to the Bill being passed into law.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time expired.

Mr S. Banda (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this –

Mr Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

________

The House adjourned at 1156 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 2^nd March, 2021.

____________

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