Friday, 13th March, 2020

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Friday, 13th March, 2020

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_______

 

 

RULING BY MR SPEAKER

 

COMPLAINTS BY DR C. K. KALILA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUKULU EAST PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY AND MR M. NDALAMEI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR SIKONGO PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY AGAINST HON. T. S. NGULUBE, MP, DEPUTY GOVERNMENT CHIEF WHIP FOR ALLEGING ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE THAT THE DUO ATTENDED THE NATIONAL DIALOGUE FORUM (NDF) AND WERE PAID SITTING ALLOWANCES FOR THEIR  ATTENDANCE WHEN IN FACT NOT.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon Members, I wish to bring to the attention of the House the fact that on Wednesday, 4th and Thursday, 5th December, 2019, my office received two letters of complaint from Dr C. K. Kalila, hon.  Member of Parliament for Lukulu East Parliamentary Constituency and Mr M. Ndalamei, hon. Member of Parliament for Sikongo Parliamentary Constituency, respectively, against Hon T. S. Ngulube, Deputy Government Chief Whip and hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency. The letters of complaint were expressed in the following terms:

 

 

“(a)      Complaint by Dr C. K. Kalila, MP

 

RE: COMPLAINT AGAINST HON MR TUTWA NGULUBE, MP

 

I write to register a complaint against the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central Constituency, Mr Tutwa Ngulube, who is also the Deputy Chief Whip. Hon. Ngulube made false and malicious remarks against me on the Floor of the House on Wednesday 4th December, 2019.

 

Mr Speaker, when the House was considering the Vote for the Ministry of Water, Sanitation and Environmental Protection, Mr Ngulube rose on a point of order and alleged that I was one of the members who attended the National Dialogue Forum for which I was even paid and he questioned whether I was in order to walk out during the consideration of the Motion to restore the Constitution Amendment No. Bill 10 on the Order Paper. He further questioned whether such money will be refunded because in his view it was wrong. He went further to lay, on the Table of the House, a list of hon. Members of Parliament who attended the National Dialogue Forum and the Parliamentary Select Committee.  With regard to the Parliamentary Select Committee to scrutinise the Constitution of Zambia Amendment Bill No. 10 of 2019, I can confirm that I attended as selected by Mr Speaker in line with legislative authority of Parliament and records show.

 

Mr Speaker, the implication of Mr. Ngulube’s point of order is that I am a dishonest Member of Parliament. I wish to state, however, that I never attended any session of the National Dialogue Forum and, therefore, could not have received any money at all. Records at both the Ministry of Justice, who were conveners of the Forum and the National Assembly, who were responsible for paying the respective hon. Members of Parliament will show that I never attended and was not paid any money. In any case, I could not have attended the said National Dialogue Forum as I was ill at the material time and informed the Clerk of the National Assembly in writing.

 

Therefore, I was deeply shocked and saddened as I listened to Mr Ngulube making unfounded and malicious remarks, which questioned my integrity and honesty to the entire nation since he was live on Parliament Television and Radio. Following Mr Ngulube’s damaging accusations, I have received calls from various people, especially my constituents and my professional colleagues seeking clarification and questioning my integrity and judgment. In addition, as a National Management Committee member of the UPND, a Party to which I belong, Mr. Ngulube’s false remarks against me have cast me in bad taste with my colleagues in the Party. Many party members now believe that I am a treacherous individual who got money under false pretences and is not worth of the UPND ideals.

 

Mr Speaker, all my life I have endeavored to be an upright man and I have, therefore, been greatly injured by Mr Ngulube’s unfounded accusations against me on the Floor of the House. In this regard, I demand from Mr Ngulube, through your office, restitution on the Floor of the House publicly to me for the injustice occasioned upon my persona. Further, I request that my name be expunged from the record which was laid on the table by Mr Ngulube and that he should be disciplined for making false and misleading accusations against a fellow Member, especially that he is a lawyer and Deputy Chief Whip of the National Assembly of Zambia, who should understand the importance of bringing facts on the Floor of the House in line with our Standing Orders. He, thus, needs to prove his allegations including records of attendance and Accounts Department showing how much and when I was paid.

 

Mr Speaker, I pray that the reliefs that I herein, seek will be granted.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Yours Sincerely

 

Hon Dr Christopher Kalila Kalila, MP

LUKULU EAST CONSTITUENCY

 

(b)        Complaint by Mr M. Ndalamei, MP

 

“RE:  COMPLAINT AGAINST HON. T S. NGULUBE, MP, DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP

 

Sir, on Tuesday, 4th December, 2019, during the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection, Mr Ngulube, MP, stood on a point of order in which he stated that I attended the National Dialogue Forum and I should refund the money which he alleges I was paid as allowances for attendance.

 

Mr Speaker, I would like to state that at no time did I attend any session of the National Dialogue Forum nor did I receive any money for such meetings that I didn’t attend.

 

In this regard, Mr T. S. Ngulube, MP, misled the House and the nation by making such false allegations against me. Not only was his statement untrue, but it portrayed me as a dishonest Member of Parliament in the eyes of my colleagues and members of the public, especially my constituents.

 

In light of the above, I am seeking, through your office, to have Mr Ngulube, MP, reprimanded and to apologise to me and the nation at large. Mr Speaker, the NDF kept an attendance register and records of payment which was being done by this Parliament clearly showing that I never attended the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) nor did I get any money.

 

Your quick action will be highly appreciated.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Hon Mundia Ndalamei, MP

 

SIKONGO CONSTITUENCY.”

 

Hon. Members, the two complaints arose from Hon. T. S. Ngulube’s point of order of Wednesday, 4th December, 2019. In the point of order, Hon.T. S. Ngulube alleged that Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, and Mr M. Ndalamei, MP, had attended the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) and received allowances, but opted to walk out when the House was considering the Motion to restore the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019 on the Order Paper. The relevant portion of his debate is as follows:

 

“Thank you, Sir, for allowing me to rise on this very important point of order affecting the affairs of this nation. The people of Zambia are aware that there is a very important process that this House is mandated to undertake, and that is the approving of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10.

 

Mr Chairperson, we are aware that more than sixteen United Party for National Development (UPND) Members of Parliament participated at the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) and earned allowances at the expense of the people of Zambia.

 

As a House, we are elected to pass laws.  Sir, throughout the process, these sixteen Members of Parliament earned allowances, some for more than twelve days and others seventeen days. We believe that the people of Zambia elected all of us in this House to pass laws and not to do politics...

 

I will now read the list of the Members of Parliament who participated at the NDF to come up with the Constitution (Amendment) Bill No. 10. These are as follows:

 

  1. Mr R. Bulaya, MP;
  2. Mr L. Fungulwe, MP;
  3. Mr S. Kakubo, MP;
  4. Dr C. Kalila, MP;
  5. Ms C. C. Kasanda, MP;
  6. Mr J. Kasonso, MP, who did not walk out yesterday;
  7. Ms P.  Kucheka, MP;
  8. Mr D. M. Kundoti, MP;
  9. Mr R. Lihefu, MP;
  10. Mr V. Lumayi, MP;
  11. Mr M. Mubika, MP;
  12. Mr M. Mukumbuta, MP;
  13. Ms S. Mulyata, MP;
  14. Mr S. Mutaba, MP;
  15. Mr C. Nanjuwa, MP; and
  16. Mr M. Ndalamei, MP.

 

 

 Sir, are these hon. Members of Parliament in order not to refund the people of Zambia the money they earned on the pretext that they were helping the Government or the people of Zambia to pass the Constitution …”

 

Hon. Members, in line with parliamentary practice and procedure, and in accordance with the rules of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to Hon. T. S. Ngulube, MP, requesting him to state his side of the story on the complaints. His letter of response reads as follows:

 

“Dear Madam

 

“RE:    COMPLAINT BY DR C KALILA, MP AND MR M NDALAMEI, MP

 

The above matter refers.

 

I have had sight of the complaint against me by the two Members of Parliament and I have also perused my records for NDF and Select Committee. I have realised that the two Members of Parliament were accidentally included on the list of those that attended the NDF. You may wish to know that upon realising the said mistake, I immediately notified both Dr C. Kalila, MP, and Mr M. Ndalamei, MP, and I have since apologised to them.

 

I thank you

 

Hon. T. S. Ngulube

 

DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP.”

 

Hon. Members, in this vein, the identical apology letters from Hon. T. S. Ngulube, MP, to Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, and Mr M. Ndalamei, MP, were expressed in the following terms:

 

“RE: YOUR COMPLAINT OVER MY POINT OF ORDER

 

The above matter refers.

 

I wish to reiterate my earlier intimation to you that your names were erroneously mentioned on the list of Members of Parliament that attended the National Dialogue Forum. I wish to sincerely apologise for the inconvenience caused.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Tutwa Ngulube, MP

DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP”

 

Hon. Members, the complaints by Dr C. K. Kalila, MP, and Mr M. Ndalamei, MP, raise the following issues:

 

  1. an hon. member’s duty to ensure that the information he or she provides the House when debating is factual, verifiable and substantiated; and
  2. an hon. member making allegations imputing a motive to, or questioning the character or reputation of another hon. Member.

 

Hon. Members, I wish to address the above issues seriatim.

 

(a) A Member’s duty to ensure that the information he/she provides to the House, when    debating, is factual and verifiable:

 

Hon. Members may wish to note that a Member’s freedom of speech and debate in the House is recognised and protected by the Constitution, Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia, and the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia.

 

However, although the Constitution and the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, guarantees hon. Members freedom of speech and debate in the Assembly, such freedom is subject to the rules of the House. One such rule requires that information an hon. Member provides to the House should be factual, verifiable and substantiated. In this regard, Standing Order 53 (1) of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2016 states:

 

“53 (1) A member shall, in debating any matter, ensure that the information he or she provides to the House is factual and verifiable.”

 

Further, Chapter 3 of the National Assembly Members’ Handbook 2006 on “Rules of Debate” states at page 13 as follows:

 

“Members must not allege specific matters of fact as being true, unless they are able to substantiate them.”

 

Furthermore, M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Seventh Edition, state, at page 244, as follows:

 

“The right to freedom of speech in the House is circumscribed by the constitutional provisions, and the rules which also guard against making of unwarranted allegations against a person.”

 

(b)     Members making allegations imputing a motive to, or questioning the character or    reputation of, another hon. Member:

 

Hon. Members, the conduct of hon. Members of Parliament is regulated by various laws and rules that seek to uphold the dignity of the House and also ensure the smooth transaction of business in the House. In this regard, Chapter 5 of the National Assembly Members’ Handbook 2006 on “Conduct of Members of Parliament and Parliamentary Etiquette”, states at page 22 as follows:

 

“While on the Floor of the House, Members should not:

 

(b) make personal reference by way of making an allegation imputing a motive to or questioning the character or reputation of any other Member of the House, unless it be imperatively necessary for the purpose of the debate, being itself a matter in issue or relevant thereto.”

 

Hon. Members, it is crystal clear from the foregoing, that Hon. T. S. Ngulube, MP, mentioned Dr C. K. Kalila, MP and Mr M. Ndalamei, MP, to be among the members of the UPND who attended the NDF and received allowances, when in fact, did not. In view of the foregoing, Hon. Ngulube, MP, breached his duty to ensure that the information he provided the House was factual, verifiable and substantiated.

 

Further, in the second limb of the point of order, by stating that Dr Kalila, MP, and Mr Ndalamei, MP, participated in the NDF and earned allowances on the pretext that they were helping the Government or the people of Zambia to pass the Constitution, Hon. Ngulube, MP, made allegations against the two hon. Members imputing an ulterior motive, or questioned the character or reputation of the hon. Members. Clearly, this had the potential to bring the reputation of the two hon. Members into disrepute. Mr Ngulube, MP, was, therefore, in breach of the rules of this House and in contempt of the House.

 

In considering the punishment to be meted out to him, I took into account the fact that Hon. T. S. Ngulube did not dispute the allegation. Instead, he was prompt in acknowledging his omission and readily apologised to both Dr Kalila, MP, and Mr Ndalamei, MP in writing, as noted above. In this regard, I have decided to exercise leniency and I have since issued a formal written warning to him. Further, I direct the Office of the Clerk to expunge Dr Kalila, MP, and Mr Ndalamei, MP’s names from the record of Members of the UPND that attended the NDF, as supplied by Hon. Ngulube, MP in his debate of 4th December, 2019.

 

In conclusion, I wish to seize this opportunity to caution hon. Members from making statements on the Floor of the House that contain information that is not factual, verifiable, and substantiated. Needless to state that untrue and malicious statements have the potential to cause irreparable damage on the persona of an hon. Member targeted by such remarks. I, therefore, urge you, hon. Members to ensure that statements made on the Floor of the House are factual, verifiable, and substantiated in compliance with the rules of the House.

 

I thank you.

 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

_______

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Her Honour the Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House an indication of the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday 17th March, 2020, the business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address on the Progress made in the Application of National Values and Principles.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday 18th March, 2020, the business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by a debate on a Private Member’s Motion entitled ‘Take Measures to Enhance Youth Productivity’ to be moved by Mr L. M. Kaziya hon. Member of Parliament for Matero Parliamentary Constituency. Thereafter, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

 

Sir, on Thursday, 19th March, 2020, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

 

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 20th March, 2020, the Business of the House will start with the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer. Thereafter, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

I thank you.

_______

 

HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President is aware that the world has been ravaged by the coronavirus which has destroyed the social and economic fabric of most nations in the world. She is also aware that various Heads of State and Governments have addressed their nation’s outlining measures their governments are taking.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, just give me a moment. Can we listen to the question in silence, and whatever the problem is, this is technology at play. Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you may continue.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was saying various Heads of States and Governments in the world have made various pronouncements to protect their citizens and their economies. Alas, the propensity by the leadership at the highest level in this country has been noticed by its ignoring the effects of the coronavirus and other vices that have affected the nation.

 

Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President, as the second highest ranking Government official, why the Government fails to address the nation when it is afflicted by various serious issues that affect it? Instead, the Government ignores as if nothing is happening. Taking into account the fact that whatever measures other countries ...

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Ngulube, resume your seat.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: ... have taken are affecting this country. This is a very serious issue that will affect this country seriously –

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you have already put your question.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Let us have some order, please, before Her Honour the Vice-President responds. I want to have some silence before she responds.

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, before I respond to the Leader of the Opposition, allow me to appreciate the women, men, boys and girls, who believe in peaceful coexistence.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, on 8th March, 2020, during celebrations to mark the International Women’s Day, women from all walks of life, including those from political parties came together and created their own platform, marched peaceful and joyfully to celebrate their day. This one act is a demonstration that when women take power in their hands and resolve to act for a common good, the sky can be the limit.

 

 

Mr Speaker, secondly, this clearly showed that it is possible for the women of this country to bring about peace in the political arena, in their homes and in their communities. For this, I say well done women.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Sir, with regards to the question from the Leader of the Opposition, I wish to state that the Minister of Health has made several pronouncements here in Parliament and outside. Recently, a meeting of stakeholders was convened and issues of the coronavirus were discussed on how the country should respond to the outbreak.

 

Mr Speaker, when an hon. Minister is delegated to speak, he/she speaks on before of the President. The hon. Minster of Information and Broadcasting has also issued statements pertaining to what the Government is doing regarding its response to the coronavirus. So, if the hon. Member feels that it is only the Vice-President who has to make a statement on the coronavirus, then he is missing the point. The Government knows how serious this disease is, but several statements have been made, and I believe our people in communities have been adequately informed about the coronavirus. Emergency funds were approved by the Cabinet and this is an indication that the Government is taking measures to address the outbreak. Luckily for Zambia, no case of coronavirus has been recorded yet.

 

Mr Speaker, the way the Government dealt with the ebola crisis is the same way or even more intensified preparedness that the Government is putting in place.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr A. B. Malama (Nchelenge): Mr Speaker, Sinohydro Zambia Limited has been contracted to construct the Kashikishi/Lunchinda Road and the township roads in Nchelenge, but he has not made significant progress in the last two years due to insufficient funds. I would like to find out if this year, the Government will sufficiently fund Sinohydro Zambia Limited for progress to be made on the ground.

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are quite a number of projects around the country that are at a standstill. For some, it is because of the heavy rains that we experienced in some parts of the country which made it difficult for the contractors to continue with the work. For others, it is due to the funding that is expected from the Government. When those funds are secured, these projects will continue.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Mr Speaker, the exchange rate of the Kwacha to Dollar is worrying the Zambian people because prices of most of the commodities are now going up. What is causing the depreciation of the Kwacha? Is it because the Patriotic Front (PF) has failed to manage the economy?

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are many local and international factors that influence the stability of the Kwacha, including the coronavirus that is affecting the whole world.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, –

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Her Honour the Vice-President, let me just maintain some order.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Even gassing and Seer 1!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members, I will allow the clock to run until we restore order. The clock should not be stopped.

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I understand the hon. Members who are laughing at the fact that coronavirus is one of the influencing factors on our economy. Hon. Members of Parliament should remember that China is one of the strongest trading partners of this country. China imports a lot of copper from this country. Therefore, if the Chinese economy is not responding to our copper that is produced in this country, definitely, there has to be an impact on the Kwacha.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, only a few minutes ago, the Leader of the Opposition alluded to the impact of coronavirus on the social economy as well as the global economy and not only that of Zambia. These are serious matters and hon. Members should understand that in Zambia, we do not operate in isolation. We are connected to the global economy and this definitely, has an impact on our local currency.

 

Sir, here at home, the Kwacha has been mainly affected because it is driven by reduced supply of foreign currency from mining companies as I explained, on one hand. On the other hand, there has been increased demand for importation of petroleum products and electricity. Hon. Members know very well that we were informed in this House about the need for Zambia to import electricity from Eskom in South Africa and Mozambique. In the same vein, the agriculture inputs particularly, fertiliser …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order on the left!

 

The Vice-President: … which we do not produce in this country, but we have to get the Kwacha to purchase these items.

 

Mr Speaker, the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) is taking some measures to stabilise the Kwacha which is under stress. These include; increasing the statutory reserve ratio and shifting compliance of the statutory reserve requirements to daily from weekly. So, measures are being taken and I have said before in the House that as a country, we need to be a net exporter instead of being a net importer. Otherwise, our Kwacha will continue to be affected negatively.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chansa (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, the people of Nsama and Mpulungu districts are worried and concerned about the Kasaba Bay Airport. 65 per cent of works were done and some materials are still on site. However, the project has remained abandoned. What is the Government’s position over this issue?

 

Mr Speaker: Her Honour the Vice-President, was the question clear?

 

The Vice-President: No, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, please, repeat the question.

 

Mr Chansa: Mr Speaker, I have been receiving a lot of phone calls from the people of Nsama and Mpulungu concerning the construction of the Kasaba Bay Airport. Some of the materials are still on site, but the project has been abandoned since 2011 to-date. What is the Government’s position concerning that project?

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that is a very important question because this Government is committed to developing tourism in the northern part of the country.

 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Sir, Kasaba Bay is the entry point to opening up the Northern Circuit. So, the right answer will be given adequately by the Minister of Tourism and Arts so that he gives us the roadmap on how the Government plans to develop the Kasaba Bay and unlock its potential of tourism in that part of the country.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank this hardworking Government for distributing the farming inputs in good time. So far, a lot of food has been seen everywhere in this country. This means that we may even have a surplus this year. However, what could be the main reason for the shortage of mealie meal in the midst of plenty?

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is regrettable that there is a shortage of mealie meal in the shops around the country. However, you have directed the hon. Minister of Agriculture to issue a ministerial statement to comprehensively inform the country as to what happened and why there is this scarcity of this essential commodity in the country.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for the response she gave last Friday concerning the coronavirus, and to which I believe the Leader of the Opposition should have listened.

 

Sir, without any questions, Zambians know that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is committed to infrastructure development and has demonstrated resilience. However, the feeder and townships roads in Kanchibiya, Mpika and Lavushimanda have shown that it is becoming difficult for our people to travel and conduct business.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what this hardworking PF Government –

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama:  – and I am sure even the Leader of the Opposition knows …

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanchibiya proceed with your question.

 

Dr Malama: … that this is a hardworking Government. What is my Government doing to ensure that it mitigates the suffering of our people in Mpika, Lavushi Manda and Kanchibiya?

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, this Government is committed to improving the road network infrastructure, including feeder roads in the country. As soon as the rains end, the Government will embark on rural roads infrastructure development in Kanchibiya and many other parts of the Northern Province.

 

Sir, this is a programme that has been funded already, so it is a matter of time when mobilisation of contractors will start. We are concern about the state of rural roads, especially with the heavy rains that we are experiencing this year. The roads in that part of Zambia are in a deplorable state and the Government is doing something about it.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Kasanda (Chisamba): Mr Speaker, I am sure Her Honour the Vice-President is aware that South Africa has recorded and confirmed seventeen cases of coronavirus. Since South Africa is our neighbour in the southern region, is the Government thinking of banning travels to South Africa?

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, such decisions can only be given to the Government by the health experts. They will inform the Government as to when Zambians should not travel to certain countries. As for now, Zambians are still travelling between South Africa and Zambia.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU) and probably most parts of the country have observed that the crop harvest for the 2019/2020 Farming Season will be a good harvest due to the good rainfall and favourable conditions that we have had. I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President what measures the Government is putting in place to ensure that the national food reserve gets ready to purchase the crops and put into the granary. This is because we know that most of our stocks have depleted due to the circumstances that we have actually gone through.

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, indeed, the country had enough stocks to last the whole season. The House is aware that the humanitarian relief implemented by Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) had to address more beneficiaries than what was anticipated. We had to feed 2.3 million Zambians who suffered from the effects of drought and those that had recently been affected by floods. A lot of our stocks have been used for humanitarian purposes. However, the Government has tried its best to ensure that no vulnerable person dies from hunger.

 

Sir, the assessment on the new crop has not been done yet. Therefore, the country will know how much crop the country has for various humanitarian purposes after the crop forecast is done.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Fungulwe (Lufwanyama): Mr Speaker, the gassing is still going on in some parts of the country …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Fungulwe: … including in Lufwanyama. I would like to find out whether the Government is now ready to inform the nation what type of chemicals or substances are being used to gas our people and what future effects do they have on the lives of the people.

 

Hon. Government Member interjected.

 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister! I will not mention the portfolio.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that question was adequately covered in this House when the hon. Minister of Home Affairs delivered a ministerial statement. He is still coming back to give updates on the gassing situation in the country. That is why all Zambians have welcomed the Presidential pronouncement that a Commission of Inquiry be instituted to look into this matter so that we can get to the bottom of this issue to assure Zambians that what they have suffered for so many months, and that the fifty lives lost through mob injustices can come to light and people can be at peace. Currently, the investigations are still on-going and the police are arresting culprits of gassing. However, the situation is under control and Zambians should not live in fear of being gassed. I am surprised to hear that Lufwanyama is still experiencing that scourge.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Mr Speaker from the time the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, violence levels in this country have escalated. There has been beating of marketeers by the PF youths, bus drivers, UPND sympathisers…

 

Hon. PF Members: Where?

 

Mr Mwiinga: …hon. Ministers…

 

Hon. PF Members: Where?

 

Mr Mwiinga: …for example, Hon. Lubinda was beaten.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Mwiinga: Yesterday, we saw PF youths –

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, resume your seat.

 

Mr Lubinda resumed his seat.

 

Hon. Member for Chikankata, I am sure you can ask a question without drawing in individual names. I am sure you are capable of doing that. What is your question?

 

Mr Mwiinga: Mr Speaker, thank you for-

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, is that hon. Member who is asking a question and giving a narration and referring to the Patriotic Front (PF) in order not to refer to the fact that his colleague, who is sitting next to him, Hon. Michelo, who has a case pending in Chilanga Police for threatening violence against me?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lubinda: He threatened that he would kill me and the matter is still active with the police. Is he in order to exclude him because he is the most violent man and …

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: …a member of his party? Is he in order?

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are fully aware by now that I discourage points of orders …

 

Mrs Chinyama: But you have just allowed one.

 

Mr Speaker: … in this context. Avoid reference to individuals. This question can be put without mentioning names, but the problem is that we want to politicise.

 

Mr Mweetwa: But we are politicians.

 

Mr Speaker: Yes, you are politicians.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: No doubt about it. If you want Her Honour the Vice-President to answer your question, be specific and she will respond. However, if you politick, we will lose time, as the case is now. So, you are penalising your colleagues in the process by not being terse.

 

Hon. Member, you may ask your question.

 

Mr Mwiinga: Mr Speaker, yesterday we saw PF youths clobbering each other in the presence of the President. Does Her Honour the Vice-President not think that one day, these PF youths will come and beat her and the President too?

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I have no knowledge of the incidence that the hon. Member is referring to.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Question!

 

The Vice-President: Do not say ‘ah’ because I was not there.

 

Dr Malama: Correct!

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, secondly, I have not received a report of this type.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left! May Her Honour the Vice-President continue.

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the issue of violence, from whatever quarter, whether it is from our youths as a party or from the Opposition youths, should be a concern to all of us as hon. Members of Parliament and leaders in our communities and constituencies. It is really up to us to consistently keep preaching to our cadres that maintenance of peace should be a requisite to all of us and for those cadres who are politicians and aspire for higher positions. They have to be seen to be leaders and stop the violence. So, finger pointing from both sides will not help the situation because we are protecting wrong doers as political parties. Yesterday, during the Youth Day celebrations, we heard how military officials were literally begging us as leaders to control our cadres. I hope that we understood and we will go ahead on this path.

 

Mr Speaker, we need to inculcate leadership qualities in our cadres and youths. They are the future leaders of our nation. So, finger pointing will not help the situation.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, when the Public Relations Officer from the Ministry of Home Affairs was asked whether the issuance of mobile National Registration Cards (NRCs) had commenced, he stated that he was not aware and that the ministry had not yet started the issuance. However, officers were on the ground in Luapula issuing mobile NRCs.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Jere: Sir, could Her Honour Her the Vice-President confirm to the nation through this august House as to when the mobile issuance of NRCs will commence.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order on the left!

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will come to the House to inform the nation about the sequence in the issuance of National Registration Cards (NRCs) including the provinces that we will start with and those that we should end with. So, we are still waiting for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to bring us the information necessary for the country to know when the issuance of NRCs starts and where.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, two weeks ago, in responding to a question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembezhi, Her Honour the Vice-President said the people who were arrested in connection with the gutted City Market have since been acquitted. I do recall, going by her word, the day she arrived at the City market, Her Honour the Vice-President stated that there was a named party whose intention was to cause anarchy in the country so that it attains power. Now that those arrested have been acquitted, should we then, safely say that Her Honour the Vice-President falsely alarmed the nation?

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the nation was not alarmed whatsoever. The political party that was mentioned had nothing to do with the political party of the hon. Member. There are many political parties in this country. Why should some political parties take offence when I have not mentioned any names? If a general statement can alarm a political party that means that political party knows its activities and what it is doing.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: So, this statement has not alarmed anyone.

 

Sir, it is important to note that from 2016 to date, the country has experienced a lot of criminal activities. We saw the torching of markets, falling of electricity power pylons all over the country and a lot of gassing and loss of treasured lives in this country. Surely, somebody has to ask, where does this come from? That is why we need to investigate more to determine the reasons behind all this. However, the hon. Member and her party should not worry if at all they are not involved in any of these activities.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Tambatamba (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the Presidential Address was on national values and one of the values was integrity that we must be guided by. The Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is very important to the people of Kasempa and all other constituencies in Zambia. The Government has been making statements from last year promising that the CDF for 2019 is coming. We have only received K1.5 million so far. When are we going to receive the 2019 and 2020 CDF for the people of our constituencies, especially the people of Kasempa?

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Finance is committed to ensuring that resources are sourced to address the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and the hon. Minister of Local Government will come to the House to inform the nation as to when funds will be found for the CDF.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Kintu (Solwezi East) Mr Speaker, Mushindamo received the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) totalling K1.6 million in December, 2018. On 18th April, 2019, the CDF committee sat and considered the projects to be transmitted to the Ministry of Local Government for approval. The council secretary in Mushindamo refused to take the project to the hon. Minister for approval. The Permanent Secretary (PS) at the Ministry of Local Government is very much aware and has ignored the complaint for two months now. One year down the line, we have not had any activities pertaining to CDF in Mushindamo. Why is the Government allowing lawlessness and corruption in Mushindamo council?

 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the council in Mushindamo is 100 per cent controlled by the United Party for National Development (UPND) councillors.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Vice-President: Moreover, if this council is so corrupt, the hon. Member should report this matter to the police because all the projects that were forwarded to the Ministry of Local Government were approved. If the council is not interested in development, that is another matter because there are certain councils were we are told that the money has been disbursed to the council, the projects are approved and the development does not take place. Which means those councils do not want to see development. If it is out of corruption, then that is another matter which should be investigated. Sometimes it is because they are told not to take development to certain areas because the PF Government will take credit for it. What is going on is very unfortunate. However, I request the hon. Member to bypass his council that is perceived to be corrupt and contact the Ministry of Local Government directly.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

_______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

ZAMBIA AQUACULTURE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT PROJECT BENEFITTING DISTRICTS IN LUAPULA PROVINCE

 

241.  Mr Mecha (Chifunabuli) asked the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock:

 

  1. how many districts in Luapula Province benefit from the Zambia Aquaculture Enterprise Development Project;
  2. whether Chifunabuli is one of the beneficiary districts; and
  3. if it is not, why.

 

The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Prof. Luo): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House and, indeed, the people of Luapula Province that all districts in Luapula Province are already benefitting from the Zambia Aquaculture Enterprise Development Project (ZAEDP) as the project has a nationwide coverage. As indicated above, Chifunabuli is one of the beneficiary districts and so, it is already benefitting from the project. In view of the answer to part (b) of the question, part (d) falls off.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mecha: Mr Speaker, the people of Chifunabuli would like to find out –

 

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing the good people of Choma Central Parliamentary Constituency to raise this point of order bordering or premised on national interest.

 

Sir, the country is undergoing challenges like never before. The University of Zambia is not functioning because this Patriotic Front (PF) Government has failed to pay salaries. For months now, council workers have not been paid on time. The gist of it is that 156 elected hon. Members have asked me to raise this point of order, ....

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, you may continue.

 

Mr Mweetwa: … on whether the hon. Minister of Finance is in order to fail to provide funds to pay staff in the National Assembly of Zambia constituency offices. The workers in those offices have gone unpaid for more than three months, affecting our work.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Ask your question now.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Is the hon. Minister of Finance in order to continue to sit quietly and fail to update us or do something so that the workers in the constituency offices can be paid because it is affecting the work of all of us who are elected.

 

I need your ruling, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Member should file a question, and we will give it to the hon. Minister of Finance to respond.

 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Member should file a question, and we will give it to the hon. Minister of Finance to respond. Thereafter, as usual, you will engage him.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mecha: Mr Speaker, it is gratifying to learn that all the districts in Luapula Province are benefiting from the Zambia Aquaculture Enterprise Development Enterprise Project (ZAEDP). I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what specific interventions are lined for Chifunabuli District and when the people of Chifunabuli should expect to see visible progress in the implementation of the project.

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, ZAEDP is structured in such a way that first of all, we advertise the project for people who are interested in participating in aquaculture. We also run a training programme for the individuals called incubatees. After training them for three months, they can then apply for funds to set up their own aquaculture farms. The other aspect of ZAEDP is that we advertise, through the districts, for individuals who are interested to:

 

  1. put up their own fish ponds so that they are given money to enable them to dig the fish ponds, stock them and then start growing the fish;
  2. apply to be in the market so that they are able to go and buy the fish from those who are growing the fish and sell it to available different markets; and
  3. grow fingerlings on behalf of the project so that those who are running fish ponds can buy fingerlings and not have a shortage of fingerlings.

 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament may share this information so that when the advertisements are out, people can take on different interests. The bigger part of this project is that we are going to be constructing aquaculture parks and set up aggregation centres which will be aquaculture parks with refrigeration facilities and marketing facilities so that people know where to take the fish for export. Further, other activities can be carried out from the aquaculture parks. This information is vital for other hon. Members of Parliament as well because they can interact with the people in their respective constituencies to participate in this project. The ministry will not be going to round saying “Come here.”

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Instead, the ministry will be sharing this information so that those who are interested can participate because this is a business.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker –

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to rise on a very serious Constitutional point of order and on a matter of national interest. I raise this point of order on Her Honour the Vice-President.

 

Sir, you are aware that Her Honour the Vice-President represents the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) on the Floor of this House. So, all the issues we raise pertaining to the electoral process are answered by Her Honour the Vice-President on the Floor of the House.

 

Sir, several statements and pronouncements have been made by the ECZ. Among the pronouncements is the fact that prisoners will be allowed to vote and that voter registration is going to commence in the first half of this year. National Registration Cards (NRCs) are not being issued in certain areas as was raised this week. Members of the public are only able to get a voters card after registering with the Department of National Registration, Passports and Citizenship, and the NRC is issued after three months in certain areas. If voter registration commences, does the Vice-President not think that a number of our people will be disenfranchised as a result of what is happening?

 

Mr Speaker, my point of order is whether the Government, through Her Honour the Vice-President, in order not to be prudent and systematic in the issuance of NRCs, voter registration and the sensitive issue of prisoners voting, considering that prisons are security cantonments and that members of political parties will have no access to the prisoners? Is she in order not to be systematic in these issues?

 

Sir, I need your serious ruling.

 

Mr Speaker: My response is that the hon. Leader of the Opposition has raised a number of issues and questions. The first one is touching on the national registration exercise. Further, we have already been informed by Her Honour the Vice-President that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will be coming to the House to issue a statement on that score. However, beyond that, he has also raised issues touching on voter registration and voting by those who are incarcerated or imprisoned.

 

Given the compound nature of the issues he has raised, and in order for the Vice-President to effectively respond and to also consult other relevant bodies involved in the subject he has raised, I will ask him to ask a question so that this is properly studied, consultations are made and the response is made by Her Honour the Vice-President. Thereafter, as usual, he will also have an opportunity to ask further questions as the statement is given. That is my ruling.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, before I was distracted by the point of order by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, …

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: … I wanted to ask a question on behalf of the Zambian youths on job creation.

 

Sir, Zambia Aquaculture Enterprise Development Project (ZAEDP) is very important for economic diversification, job creation for our youths and reduction of poverty and vulnerability, as the hon. Minister put it. Is she giving an assurance that the Zambian youths living near water bodies will be given this opportunity as it has been given to the people of Luapula?     

 

 

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, as I said, the question was specifically for the people of Luapula. However, in my response, I said that this project has a national character. Therefore, even the people of Kanchibiya, especially those who live near the water will benefit from this project. Indeed, it is one of the best ways to create wealth and jobs not only for the youth but for the women and the people of Zambia at large.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, as the hon. Minister has rightly put it, the Zambia Aquaculture Enterprise Development Project (ZAEDP) is very important. However, in her answers, she has indicated that this project has not started. From where I stand, I have information indicating that incubatees have been trained and they are just waiting for funds to be allocated. If this project has started, could the hon. Minister clarify why it has taken long to fund those who have already been trained?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I did not say that the project had started. I said that on certain aspects of the project, we have some incubatees who have already graduated. Not long time ago, I went to preside over a graduation ceremony of incubatees who graduated on the Copperbelt. After the graduations of incubatees and receiving applications from different people who want support from the ministry, we are compiling the list of the successful candidates from the applicants and incubatees who excelled. The incubatees who did not excel can be taken back for further training for another month. My colleague, Hon. Yaluma, just signed the document. We gave the funds to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) so that it can disburse them to those who excelled. We did not want the ministry to be the one responsible for disbursing the money. We needed an institution which has experts not only in disbursing the money but also following up the use of the money.

 

Mr Speaker, it has been a practice in the past that when money is given out, people think it is money to share. For instance, they end up buying a car using the money they applied for. As a ministry, we are very serious to ensure that there is proper monitoring by financial experts. If we disburse K80,000 for example, that money should be used for its purpose, and because this money is a loan, we expect the CEEC to do the recoveries. Systems have been set up and we are ready to move.

 

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, there were applicants who were approved in Chienge but they never got any feedback from the ministry. I heard that in other parts of the country, applicants have been trained. I feel that Chienge is lagging behind. When are the people of Chienge going to receive the training?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, there has been some misinformation that has gone out into the country, and I thank the hon. Member for seeking clarity on this. For some reason, when the applications were considered, there were certain individuals who were shortlisted to possibly benefit from this money. Even before the due diligence was done, some people were told that they had been considered and had gone through.

 

Mr Speaker, let me give an example. Eighty-seven applicants were considered for Lusaka. When doing due diligence, we went on the on the ground and found that some shortlisted candidates did not even own any land and some of them were non-existent. As a ministry, we are very serious and we want this money to be used properly. Therefore, if you are non-existent, you cannot be given the money because if this money goes to people who do not exist, recovery will be very difficult. The system we have set up is very robust. Anybody who thinks they can cheat and get their way will not get it.

 

Mr Speaker: Withdraw the word “cheat.”

 

Prof. Luo: Those who are telling lies will not get it.

 

Interjections

 

Mr Speaker: Even “lies” should be withdrawn.

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, those who are not telling the truth.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to ask –

 

Hon. Katuta rose.

 

Mr Speaker: Is that a point of order, or you are stretching yourself?

 

Laughter

 

Ms Katuta: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Ms Katuta: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to rise on this important point of order. The hon. Minister has not answered my question. The question was when are the people of Chienge who were shortlisted going to be trained?

 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that as the hon. Minister responds to the question to be posed by the hon. Member for Msanzala, she should clarify further the question by the hon. Member for Chienge.

 

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, this programme started in 2016, and it is a five year programme. Some of the funding is coming from the African Development Bank (AfDB). We are almost at the end of the stipulated period. Is the hon. Minister sure that this programme will go as far as Lusangazi and Petauke districts other than Chifunabuli?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, before I answer this question, let me clarify the answer to the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge, if she will pay attention.

 

Mr Speaker, I gave the answer about the people she referred to in Chienge. That is why I gave an example of Lusaka. I said that there has been misinformation; we have not yet identified the real people in Chienge who will benefit. We are doing due diligence to authenticate whether the names we were given under Chienge or many other districts and constituencies exist. If we do what has been done in the past, where money was allocated to names which were not authenticated, we would not be doing anything. The hon. Member has to be patient. Next week, I will have a meeting with provincial hon. Ministers to deal with that issue and ensure that the real people who should benefit from the project benefit. Are we together?

 

Ms Katuta indicated assent.

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, regarding Lusangazi, when a project starts, it does not mean that it is going to be done immediately. We have to identify the areas which are going to benefit from a particular project. We are supposed to set up systems, and I said that we are now ready with the system. We are supposed to be training the beneficiaries. I said that the training of the beneficiaries had started, and we are now identifying the beneficiaries. We are at the point where we are doing due diligence, at provincial level, of all the people who were identified. We want to know whether they indeed exist. Provincial hon. Ministers will be working with me and they will be giving me reports of what they found on the ground. Lusangazi is a new district. The ministry will be looking at how it can work with Lusangazi –

 

Mr Speaker: Msanzala.

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, sorry, it is Msanzala. It is a new district so the ministry staff will be seeing how they can put some activities and a system together so that it comes into the equation.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: The last two interventions will be from the hon. Members for Luangeni and Kafue.

 

Mr C. M. Zulu (Luangeni): Mr Speaker, –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

 Business was suspended from 1040 hours to 1100 hours.

 

 [MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr C. M. Zulu: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, the hon. Minister mentioned, in her response, that the ministry was going to start doing aquaculture parks, but she did not indicate when this programme would start.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, the development of aquaculture parks is one of the most important aspects of this ZAEDP. Mapping has just been concluded, and some of the sites for the development of the aquaculture parks were not suitable. We have moved into the second phase of identifying other suitable sites. We have also been doing the Bill of Quantities (BoQ) to see how much it would cost to construct and equip the parks with the necessary equipment they require to function.

 

Madam, the third aspect of these aquaculture parks is that they have to be operationalised. We will be putting up adverts. One part of the advert will be for the hardware and construction, while the other part will be software. As the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock, I want to use this opportunity to tell the nation at large that we are encouraging Zambians to apply for the aquaculture parks. In fact, it would be desirable that consortiums apply. These should have experts in business, marketers and engineers who will be in charge of maintaining the equipment there because we build, but we do not have a good culture of maintaining. Finally, we will need people who will be doing the running around in these consortiums.

 

Madam Speaker, we will be carrying out an assessment of the hardware and software so that this programme is a success and creates wealth for the Zambian people, which is one of the legacies I am interested in as the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mrs Chinyama (Kafue): Madam Speaker, I seek clarity from the hon. Minister. I am sorry if I am drawing her back, but my understanding of this entire project is that we had some financial issues with the Africa Development Bank (AfDB), which I understand is funding the project, and for that reason, they were put on hold. I wanted to get a status update on the matter.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, if we had a problem with the funding for this particular project, I would have mentioned it. One of the things that are destroying our country is social media. I would love to interact with the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue, so that I give her factual information regarding this project and its funding. So, we are on course.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

_______

 

MOTIONS

 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL ECONOMY, TRADE AND LABOUR MATTERS ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE COMPLIANCE AUDIT ON THE AWARDING AND MONITORING OF MINING RIGHTS FOR 2017 ACCOUNTS

 

Ms Miti (Vubwi): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Compliance Audit on the Awarding and Monitoring of Mining Rights for 2017 Accounts, for the Fourth Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 4th March, 2020.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Dr Kopulande (Chembe): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 

Ms Miti: Madam Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference as contained in the Standing Orders, the Committee was tasked to consider the Report of the Auditor-General on the Compliance Audit on the Awarding and Monitoring of the Mining Rights for 2017 Accounts.

         

Madam Speaker, in order to appreciate the findings contained in the Auditor General’s Compliance Audit Report, the Committee sought both oral and written submissions from relevant stakeholders, including the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

 

Madam, since hon. Members are privy to the contents of the Committee’s report, I will restrict my comments to a few salient issues contained in the report.

 

Madam Speaker, from the outset, allow me to commend the Office of the Auditor-General for conducting this compliance audit on the awarding and monitoring of mining rights. Suffice it to say that this is the first time the Auditor-General has undertaken a compliance audit other than the usual financial and performance audits. It is the expectation of the Committee, going forward, that more compliance audits will be undertaken with the possibility of linking the findings to the financial audits conducted every financial year.

 

Madam, before I move to specific issues in the report, let me briefly inform the House that the extractive industry, particularly mining, constitutes one of Zambia’s vibrant economic sectors accounting for about 73 per cent of the country’s export earnings and approximately 10 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (DGP). However, despite the urge proportion in terms of foreign exchange mobilisation, the sector’s contribution to the National Treasury during the period under review was about 26 per cent.

 

Madam Speaker, the mining sector has, over the years, encountered various internal and external factors such as inconsistencies in the process of awarding mining rights, lack of disclosure of revenant information by some rights orders to other stakeholders and under-declaration of production figures. This necessitated the enactment of the Mines and Mineral Development Act No. 11 of 2015. However, despite the enactment of this piece of legislation, not much progress has been achieved. This is what prompted the compliance audit by the Office of the Auditor-General, pursuant to Article 250 (c) and (d) of the Constitution of Zambia, the Public Audit Act No. 13 of 1994 and other relevant international standards for supreme audit institutions.

 

Madam, the Auditor-General revealed that after the compliance verification excise carried out on some of the mining rights holders awarded during the year under review, it was observed that among the fifty sampled mining rights holders in the Western Province, Eastern Province, North-Western Province, the Copperbelt Province and Central Province, eight exploration companies had no fixed abode, physical addresses, contact numbers and emails of the mining rights holders could not be traced. Consequently, it was not possible to authenticate their existence and verify their compliance status.

 

Madam Speaker, the Committee is extremely disappointed that such an important requirement   of providing relevant contact details by applicants was overlooked by the cadastre officer and, more importantly, the mining licensing committee. The Committee is of the view that the absence of this important information contributed to the failure by the ministry to effectively carry out compliance visits.

 

Madam, the awarding of mining rights has a direct impact on the performance of the mining sector. It is, therefore, important that due diligence is carried out in the approval of applications to ensure that only applicants who meet all the requirements are awarded mining rights. In light of this, the Committee recommends that the Patent and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA) should be included as a member of the Mining Licensing Committee in order to assist with up-to-date company registration details. The Committee, further, recommends that the pre-screening of mining licence applications should be decentralised to provincial administration offices in order to reduce on the workload of the mining cadastre office and make the process more efficient and cost effective.

 

Madam Speaker, the compliance audit report also revealed that contrary to Section 25 (c) of the Mines and Minerals Development Act No. 11 of 2015, out of 709 mining exploration  rights holders, there were nine companies that exported minerals despite being holders of exploration licences only.

 

Madam, the Committee expresses disappointment with the rate at which the country is losing revenues from the mining sector. The Committee observes that while Section 26 (1) of the Mines and Mineral Development Act No. 11 of 2015 makes provision for mining exploration licence holders to export mineral samples for analysis or for purposes of conducting tests on the mineral, the Act does not explicitly prescribe the quantity that can be exported for this purpose and the frequency of exporting these samples.

 

Madam Speaker, the Committee is concerned that due to this lapse in legislation, some entities are taking advantage and exporting minerals on the pretext that these are samples for analysis or test when in fact not. At the same time, the Committee notes that due to inadequate funding, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is unable to undertake activities such as compliance visits and physical inspections. This has resulted in the loss of revenue for the country thorough fraudulent export of minerals.

 

Madam, some stakeholders who appeared before the Committee submitted that some of the jurisdictions that had recorded great success with regard to the mineral resources governance had established an independent mineral management authority to regulate the mining sector.

 

Madam Speaker, consequent upon its deliberations, the Committee made the following recommendations to improve the situation in the mining sector as a matter of extreme urgency:

 

  1. the Government should prescribe a limit in terms of quantity and frequency of sample exports to ensure that the country does not continue to lose mineral resources through large volumes of samples that leave the country purportedly for mineral analysis;
  2. the Government must invest and set up laboratory equipment and facilities in the country to determines mineral content in order to limit export of samples for analysis;
  3. in the short term, the Government should adequately fund and provide the necessary support to the Ministry of  Mines and Mineral Development, to enable it adequately execute its mandate; and
  4. in the long term, the Government should establish an independent body to regulate the mining sector in order for the nation to obtain maximum benefits from the minerals resources.

 

Madam, another matter of concern relates to the finding by the Office of the Auditor-General that when mining rights holders were exporting the products, mineral elements which were not included on the mineral valuation certificate and mineral export permit were also exported, contrary to Section 473 (b) (ii) of the Mines and Minerals Development Act No. 11 of 2015. The Act provides that exporters of minerals are supposed to export minerals as specified on the mineral valuation certificate and export permit.

 

Madam Speaker, the Committee is alarmed that the schedule provided by the Auditor-General indicated that there was under-declaration of copper from a random sample of three trucks from one exit point. This resulted in loss of revenue amounting to US$5,738,545.50. The Committee is concerned that the situation on the ground at all exit points might be worse than the results of the random sample. The Committee observes that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has no system in place to ensure that the sample presented for mineral analysis to the Geological Survey Department has the same content as the consignment exported.

Madam Speaker, this situation is worsened by the fact that the onus is on the exporter to submit samples of their exports to the Geological Survey Department for analysis. This creates room for submission of non-representative samples in order to reduce the amount of mineral royalty payable on the consignment.

 

Madam Speaker, in light of the above, your Committee recommends as follows:

 

  1. the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development should, as a matter of agency, deploy officers to identify mineral content at all exit points in order to prevent revenue leakages;
  2. the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) should strike a balance between trade facilitation and efficiency by ensuring that only correct minerals are exported by mining licence holders and correct valuations for tax purposes are undertaken;
  3. the Government should invest in the procurement of x-ray florescent machines in order to increase verification of mineral exports at exit points; and
  4. in addition to placing officers from the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development at loading and exit points, your Committee recommends that the mineral analysis by the Geological Survey Department be decentralised to exit and loading points in order to curb smuggling of minerals.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to thank all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee and contributed to the work of the Committee on this report. Gratitude also goes to the Office of the Auditor-General which was a permanent witness to the Committee and provided technical support throughout its deliberations.  I also wish to thank you, Madam, and the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the guidance and services rendered to the Committee.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Dr Kopulande: Madam Speaker, now.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The seconder will deliver his statement from the Table of the House.

 

Dr Kopulande: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity granted to me to second this very important Motion.

 

Madam, let me start by acknowledging the clarity with which the mover of the Motion has presented the Committee’s report on the compliance audit that was conducted by the Auditor-General’s Office concerning the issuing and monitoring of mining rights for the accounts of 2017.

 

Madam Speaker, as ably emphasised by the mover of the Motion, the mining sector is a critical sector to the economic development of this country as it is the dominant sector. Being in that position, the mining sector is expected to be the key driver of the Zambian economy by stimulating additional activities in various other sectors of the economy through various externalities that accrue from the activities of the sector.

 

Madam Speaker, it is common knowledge that the mining sector has, to a large extent, not delivered on its expectation and that of our people. In fact, the mining sector has remained aloof and non-coordinated with other sectors of the economy of our country.

 

Madam Speaker, the report of the Auditor-General has revealed a number of irregularities. Contrary to the provisions of Section 25(1)(a) of the Mines and Minerals Development Act No. 11 of 2015, it was found that twenty-one mining rights holders who were visited on the Copperbelt, the North-Western and Central provinces had not commenced operations soon after being awarded the mining rights. The reason given for this failure to commence operations has been lack of finance on the part of the holders of the mining rights. It has also been as a result of delays by the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) to give their consent and clearances. It has also been as a result of disputes in receiving consent from the holders of the surface right. It has also been related to land issues and disputes with traditional rulers such as headmen and chiefs.

 

Madam Speaker, the reasons given can be considered to be genuine, particularly with regard to the failure of our local small-scale miners to have access to the necessary financial resources for them to undertake their operations in good time. Nevertheless, the Committee has observed that one of the reasons has been delays and inadequate assessment of applications for mining rights as a result of failure by some members of the mining licensing committee as prescribed in the applicable law failing to appear and participate in the proceedings of the mining licensing committee. This has been one major contributing factor.

 

Madam Speaker, as regards finance, the Committee recommends that we, as a people, cannot preclude our citizens from owning mining rights because they do not have money. While they do not have money, they have their God-given resource, the minerals that are in their land. Therefore, the Committee recommends that a platform be created by the Government where foreign investors in the mining sector can partner with Zambians who have mining rights so that the local partner can bring the mining rights to the table while the foreign investor can bring in the capital needed. The process of negotiation and agreement in this arrangement needs the Government support so that the mine rights holder is not disadvantaged in the agreement.

 

Madam Speaker, another issue raised in your Committee’s report has been a case of legal mineral process. I seek the indulgence of the House to quote directly from the Report of the Auditor-General on the Compliance Audit on the Awarding and Monitoring of Mining Rights for 2017 Accounts for the Fourth Session of the Twelfth National Assembly. On page 16, it states as follows:

 

“According to the existing procedure, a mining right holder should possess a mineral processing licence in order to have the legal right to process minerals. It is the responsibility of the ministry to ensure that all persons involved in processing minerals have licences. According to a letter dated 7th September, 2017, issued by the Director of the Geological Survey Department, a company named Minerals Junction and Transport Limited was fined K1.5 million for operating a mineral processing plant without a licence. However, there was no evidence that the fine has been settled, although in response to a query raised on this issue, the ministry indicated that the company had since obtained two additional mineral processing licences numbered 2423 HQMPL and 2726 HQMPL.”

 

Madam Speaker, here is a company that is undergoing disciplinary action. Before proof is shown that this company had paid the fine and complied with the requirement with the law, it was awarded two more mineral processing licences. Under what circumstance could a situation like this arise? It is not my intention to listen to people debating while seated, however, there must have been somebody with some pecuniary interest in the issuing of additional licences before the matter is settled and the applicable penalty has been met by the company that has been found wanting. That could be a very clear explanation, and it is a sad situation.

 

Madam, as a Committee, we also learnt that there was a case where an exporter of minerals went to export minerals on the basis of a forged export licence. The only penalty which was given to this exporter was a charge of K1.5 million which he paid within five days. This was forgery; it was not only a civil matter but a criminal matter as well of uttering false documents.  So, how many such cases do we have? Does this explain this sector’s failure to contribute effectively to the growth of our economy, reduce unemployment, fight against poverty and improve the well-being of our people? We need more seriousness in the management of this important sector.

 

Madam, in the case of Mineral Junction and Transport Limited, we urge the ministry to ensure that this company pays the fines that have been imposed on it that its other licences be reconsidered. We propose that the Office of the Attorney-General be followed up so that this fine is paid by this erring company.  

 

Madam, the report of the Auditor-General also revealed that some mining rights holders exported minerals without mineral export permits. We had a case of a company called MM Integrated Steel Mills that exported minerals without an export permit. In the interaction with the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development who appeared before the Committee, the explanation was that this company had exported only ash and residue from the steel processing activity. However, when the Auditor-General interrogated the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and its ASYCUDA system, it found that the consignment that was ostensibly only ash and residue was in fact laden with zinc, which is a mineral and should have been exported with the correct permit and appropriate taxes paid. This did not happen. The Committee feels that this is a result of failure by the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to place competent officers to ensure that the consignments leaving the country are checked and tested so that appropriate taxes are paid.

 

Madam, we heard from the mover of the Motion a case of three copper trucks whose copper was undervalued and exported. As a Committee, we heard that there are at least 100 trucks that leave the country with minerals every day. In the case of only three trucks, US$5 million was lost. Now, if we are losing US$5 million from three trucks, taken as a sample, and 100 trucks leave the country every day, how many trucks leave without paying the necessary taxes? Does this explain the underdevelopment that this country is going through? We have raised serious questions over the issue of the mining sector and its contribution to the Treasury.

 

Madam Speaker, this report highlights ugly things that are happening and how under our own watch, we have permitted loss of revenue to this degree. The Committee is very disappointed with this development. In light of MM Integrated Steel Mills, we recommend that this company be made to settle all the applicable taxes on the zinc that it exported under the guise of ash and residue. In addition to this, penalties should be imposed for failure to declare the correct material being exported rather than covering it under a different name.

 

Madam Speaker, the Report of the Auditor-General on the Compliance Audit on the Awarding and Monitoring of Mining Rights for 2017 Accounts has opened the eyes of the Committee as to what is going on in our economic management system.

Madam Speaker, this report has clearly indicated that probably and most likely and highly likely our poverty is self-imposed. It is self-imposed by our own laxity and failure to manage our God given resources, so that we can be the primary beneficiaries of these resources that are given to us by the almighty.

 

Madam Speaker, one day we shall appear before God almighty and what questions are we going to be asked?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kopulande: Are we going to look at God in his face and tell him in his eyes that we did and we managed and that we were the right stewards over the resources that he gave us?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kopulande: Madam Speaker, more needs to be done. As I conclude, allow me once again to thank the mover of this Motion. Allow me to pay tribute to the Auditor-General for the report that has opened our eyes. As the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters, we need more compliance audits particularly, in the area that we are concerned with.

 

Madam Speaker, I wish to also thank your office for the support you rendered to the Committee. I also wish to thank the witnesses that appeared before us for the valuable information that they gave us, thereby helping us to produce a credible report for submission to this House.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to second.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for the opportunity to debate this Motion.

 

Madam, as I begin to debate this Motion, I want to say from the outset that I strongly support this report. In doing so, I want to thank the mover of the Motion and the seconder because they have, indeed, covered the main issues.

 

Madam Speaker, allow me to quote from your Committee’s report, particularly, the conclusion which states as follows:

 

“The mining sector is the mainstay of the Zambian economy. However, despite the significant resource endowments of the country, there had been increasing debate on the insignificant contribution of the mining sector in terms of tax revenue, employment creation, poverty reduction, and infrastructure development.”

 

Madam, I would even add that the forward and backward linkages that support businesses around mining houses are, indeed, important for business activity. I will add that the foreign exchange earnings that we so desperately need to meet our debt servicing obligations and to stabilise the Kwacha truly depend on mining.

 

Madam Speaker, in the conclusion, the report says:

 

“In light of this, there is need for adequate funding to the ministry to enable it adequately undertake various activities and ultimately maximise returns from the mining sector.”

 

Madam, if there is a country that understands the benefits of mining, it is Zambia. To this end, we have a province called the Copperbelt Province. I think that this province was named Copperbelt Province in honour of the benefits that Zambia was enjoying from mining. It is surprising, therefore, that a country that fully appreciates the benefits of mining can ignore this very important sector by way of not supporting it through budget allocations.

 

Madam Speaker, we have debated on the Floor of this House that the funding to this sector is so low. It is so low that it is not surprising for me to receive a report like this. I would actually be shocked if the report was different from this. You cannot underfund your cash cow and expect to get milk all the time. It is unthinkable. You cannot underfund this so very important sector and expect benefits.

 

Madam, when you look at the problems highlighted here in the report, it confirms that this sector is underfunded. Companies are exporting minerals from this country under the guise of samples. We are sending these samples for analysis, they would say. In the meantime, they are exporting our minerals.

 

Madam Speaker, a country that has enjoyed the benefits of mining does not have laboratories to check these minerals fifty years down the line? Our civil servants cannot execute their mandate? This is what the report says because they are underfunded. Wow!

 

Madam, some minerals are exported under the cover of a different mineral. The ministry fails to deploy staff in critical locations to monitor mining. We know the problem. It is that of underfunding. We called upon this Government to relook and rethink how it allocates resources.

 

Madam Speaker, look at priorities this Patriotic Front (PF) Government puts on things like by-elections. The PF says that a by-election, under whatever circumstances, must be funded because they say it is constitutional. Similarly, the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is constitutional, yet it will not receive that attention.

 

Madam, when you ignore your cash cow, you do it at your own peril. On page 20, your Committee’s reports states as follows:

 

“The hon. Minister responded that as at 9th January, 2020, all non-compliant mining licences had been either defaulted or cancelled. The Committee was informed that 874 licences had been defaulted. In addition, a total of 816 licences were cancelled. Of these, 240 were small scale exploration licences; 274 large scale exploration licences; 195 small scale mining licences; ninety-five artisanal mining licences and twelve large scale mining licences.”

 

Madam Speaker, when you look at the issue of licensing, you will appreciate that licensing is all about permitting; permitting institutions or companies to go ahead. Licensing is all about facilitation. It is all about granting authority to undertake an economic activity. Now, if so many licences were cancelled, you can imagine how many jobs were cancelled along with those licenses. However, what is important is that there is something wrong. You cannot have so many licences cancelled. It means that somehow, somewhere, the mining sector is not being facilitated properly.

 

Madam Speaker, it is agreed that even the so-called diversification programme of the economy will have to depend on revenues from the mining sector because that is where the money is. However, with a mining sector that is shrinking and not facilitated, we will not be able to do so as a country.

 

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to urge the PF Government to prioritise mining and minerals development. Southern Africa, in general, has been developed by mines. The Copperbelt towns that we as a country boast of like Chingola, Luanshya and Kabwe were all developed because of mining initiatives. The Government will do well to prioritise resource allocation to the mining sector. This is the only way our country will earn the foreign exchange which this Government badly needs to stabilise the kwacha. The Government badly needs the foreign exchange to service the debt that is drowning the country. The Government needs money to invest so that the youths of this country can have jobs and salaries can be paid. 

 

Madam Speaker, if the Government continues to marginalise the mining sector, reports such as the one being considered, will be common in this House.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I felt compelled to debate this report. However, let me make a quick declaration that I am an hon. Member of this Committee. Ordinarily, I should have allowed other hon. Members to debate. However, my idea of standing up is to learn what lessons hon. Members drew from this report that the Committee laboured to put together and there is no contest to what I am saying. I think that the problems that this country has are what surround this same issue of the economy. If hon. Members did interrogate the report which is on Floor, I do not see why they should just be seated and not talk about the comments that are in the report.

 

Madam, having said so, I think the Office of the Auditor-General requires to be commended for bringing out all these matters of audit performance on the Cadastre Department of the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development, on the issuance of mining exploration licenses. I am quite sure that my brother and friend, the hon. Minister of Mines and Mineral Development, will take these comments very seriously. If acted upon, these comments stand to benefit the country for a very long time to come.

 

Madam Speaker, hon. Members who spoke before me lamented the issue of low funding to the Cadastre Department. My take is that, yes, there may be low funding, but if the right thing is done, this particular activity is self-financing because this is where the money is. I do not see how we as hon. Members can be lamenting about appropriation of money to an activity that is supposed to be self-financing.

 

Madam, the Auditor-General’s report brought out very screaming evidence that the seconder passionately dealt with in the act of allowing exportation of mineral elements that are not declared on the valuation certificate. The Committee did interrogate the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) as to how, in the presence of the Automated System for Customs Data (ASYCUDA), truck loads are going out to go and make sample determinations abroad. Yet, there is a specified limited allowable quantity that is supposed to go out as samples, and if my memory serves me right, it should not be more than 100 kg. However, in this case, 100 kg is translated into truck loads of minerals to go and sell on maybe the London Metal Exchange (LME).

 

Madam Speaker, I think that the values of these elements when computed are so much, and can resolve so many of the problems that we are facing as a country. The problem this country has is one, there is no money. The country does not have money and we do not even know how to generate it.

 

Madam, another screaming concern that the Auditor General’s report brought out in this particular report is the express issuance of mining exploration licences. The Committee learnt with shock that there is a facility for express issuance of mining exploration licences before the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) issues the clearance report.

 

Madam Speaker, the same Committee report also tells those of us hon. Members who read –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Nkombo, being an hon. Member of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters, I urge you to be brief with you interventions so as to allow the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to respond to the serious issues in the report.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am now stuck and in a precarious situation. When I am advised to be brief, what should I do? I am not supposed to bring out points that I think hon. Members should know? My suspicion is that there has not been sufficient time for hon. Members to read the report and we have an hour and a half before the House adjourns. Otherwise, I have heeded to your advice. I can simply sit down and allow this report to go through. However, my insight tells me that some of these things should be talked about. For instance, the issue of ZEMA not issuing a clearance report before a mining licence exploration is given is part of the flaws in the system which allows exploration mining license holders to get these licences.

 

Madam, when the Auditor General’s office went to audit, it could not even find physical addresses for mining licence holders and that is a serious concern which is in the report. To add salt to injury, not even email addresses and telephone numbers for mining licence holders could be found. These are matters where I think there is a laissez-faire attitude in handling them.

 

Madam Speaker, that is why people can easily export samples because they are not even known where they can be found. It is a glaring anomaly that needs to be brought before this House, so that as the hon. Minister responds, he understands that some hon. Members have read the report and are looking for solutions to resolve these matters. A licence cannot be given to someone who is of no fixed abode. It simply cannot be done because it is unprofessional.

 

Madam Speaker, when the Committee asked ZEMA to be specific about those from the Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection who do not even attend meetings to carry out evaluations, they also said it does happen and it is provided for. In certain instances, the Cadastre Department prevails over such matters.

 

Madam Speaker, another issue that is glaring is that of the many licences which were examined during that period. We did a computation, and the licensing committee may have spent about a minute or two to give approval, and that is why there was a very high rate of cancellation of these licences as the hon. Member who spoke just before me said. There are too many cancellations because there is no thoroughness in the issuance of the licences. If I am not making sense, I will sit down.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, you are making sense.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, thank you.

 

Madam Speaker, I am about to finish. My take is that the whole process is a rip-off to the country. We are being ripped off, and so, we cannot just say that the report has ignored this fact. It means that when these people are doing what they are doing, the authority is facing the other side and deliberately not policing this activity. The report also tells us that for some time now, there has been tinkering on establishing the Mining Licences Authority which would clear the gaps which are there. For instance, we were told by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) that its job is to just enter in the entry to see the samples go and not do anything else. The Mining Department also said that its job was to just make sure that people have licences and do what they have to do. There is no one to police the anomalies of MM Integrated Steel Limited which exported so many minerals. This is just one example. There are many other people who are ripping this country off and yet our eyes are wide open. My suspicion is that somebody who is in authority is turning a blind eye to this for a purpose I do not know. These things can be resolved. Mining is the lifeblood of this country, whether one likes it or not. We may preach the language of diversification, but it will still not match the mining resources that can benefit the children of this country. The mining endowments are immeasurable.

 

Madam, instead of arguing about the same issue all the time, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development needed to call for a workshop for hon. Members of Parliament and ask them for help as regards flaws in the Auditor-General’s report. How can we sort this out together in order for us to get maximum benefits from the resources that God gave us so that we stop groaning and mourning? In the midst of plenty, fools starve. That is an adjective. We see Dollars passing in front of our noses and we just keep looking and looking. We know where the problems are. Let us sit down and deal with this report so that next year, the hon. Minister will be responding and saying that the ministry has dealt with the matters when the time for the Government Action-taken report comes.

 

Madam Speaker, the issue of penalties falls on the face of enforcement. Whoever has been smuggling, that is the word, it is not taking out simples. Whoever has been smuggling our “mineral samples”, which have cobalt, gold, copper, lead, tin and all sorts of metals, should pay the penalties. If these minerals were sold, this country would not be talking about not having money for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) because the Government would be paying CDF annually to enable us carry out our work in our constituencies. We cannot receive CDF because of laxity in the mining sector. 

 

Madam, this country is facing challenges resulting from climate change. We can no longer depend on rain to produce food. We cannot! We were a bit lucky because we had slightly above normal rainfall although it was erratic. We, therefore, cannot go wrong in the mining area if we do things correctly. We can do this because it is doable. How are countries like Chile or Peru doing it? In the world, Zambia is known to have the best copper.. Am I wrong, hon. Minister?

 

Mr Musukwa indicated dissent.

 

 Mr Nkombo: I am right. In the midst of all this, why then are our citizens poor? There is a gap there. People are not doing the right thing.

 

Madam, as I conclude, I would like to give some advice to the Patriotic Front (PF) through the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. I want to tell him that there is definitely still time to get things right. We have the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) and ZRA, and the hon. Minister should consider the establishment of the Zambia Licensing Mining Authority and create a small secretariat on the Copperbelt or maybe in Solwezi because at the moment, the whole region has become a mining area. The secretariat should coordinate the exploration of minerals so that we no longer get ripped off.

 

Madam, sometimes, those in the Opposition remain with no option but to think that these guys, sorry, I withdraw the word “guys,” and replace it with these people on your right know what is going on but they are turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to the issue. The hon. Minister should establish this authority and get ZEMA to sharpen its tools in order for it to give meaningful authority for operations. It should be given to people of a fixed abode.

 

Madam Speaker, finally, do not forget that all the mines are sitting in chiefdoms. So, let the chiefs of those chiefdoms come on board. I know that they are on board through the local municipal councils, but let them have more participation at the lower level. People should also have authority from ZEMA and royal establishments for mining explorations to commence. Have you got what I said, hon. Minister?

 

Mr Musukwa indicated assent.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, the chiefs must play a major role. For instance, look at Chief Nkana. The activities in his chiefdom began long before many of us in this Assembly Chamber were born, but look at the benefits Chief Nkana has realised. Apart from the pit at Nkana, what benefits has he got from the mining activities in his chiefdom? What benefits have we got as a country, apart from the establishment of these young boys called jerabos who are fighting and holding the Government to ransom?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Translate the word “jerabo.”

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam,jerabo” has no other term. I do not know. What are they called in English?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Illegal miners.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I am told that they are illegal miners. All those things they salvage from the slag is indicative of how rich this country is. This is what we have been throwing away as residue. Probably, some people think better than us because they made wealth for themselves from that.

 

Madam Speaker, that end product is the same content that is found during exploration. There is no difference. What is called waste or slag or black mountain came from the belly of the earth. When the companies explore for minerals, they get chunks of stones and export them. The authority to be created will help us deal with this. Just like we have the Community Resources Boards (CRBs) in game parks, we should also have CRBs in chiefdoms and the chief’s office should also assist in policing the minerals that are being explored and taken out. Right now, no one knows what is being taken out.

 

Madam, I would now like to encourage hon. Members that this is work for us. This is what work looks like to enable us to uplift the standard of living of our people. We need to pulverise this document letter by letter and find solutions to what is going on in our country. Otherwise, we will leave no legacy. Together, we will leave no legacy. Some of us will leave a legacy of not telling the people on the right the issues, unless we are provided with a platform or opportunity to govern and be on the other side and attend to these issues. Their part is being able not to act on things such as these. They know the flaws in this industry. I wish the hon. Minister of Mines Minerals and Development well as he embarks on dealing with these findings in the Auditor-General’s report.

 

Madam Speaker, we are extending our hand to resolve these issues. Once these issues are resolved, it is not the PF which will win, but the Zambian people. It is the common person in the street who will win, and he/she will say that there are certain issues on which politicians can get together, agree without contention, pulverise them into powder and mould them into something that is meaningful for the generations to come.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Musukwa): Madam Speaker, I will premise my response on the technical report that we submitted to the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters.

 

 Madam Speaker, I know that speaking is an art, and nowadays, it is even a job. I will not delve into many issues that have permeated this discussion for political discourse. However, I would like to place on record that the Patriotic Front (PF) is committed to ensuring that the mining sector is relevant to the people and improves the living standard of the people in terms of infrastructure development.

 

Madam Speaker, it is not in doubt that Zambia is predominantly a mining nation. To that  effect, mining is in the mouth of all Zambians across the divide. In fact, mining in Zambia can be compared to football where everyone is a coach. Everyone in Zambia has a say on the mining sector and its health. I am very grateful for the discourse that I have heard from my hon. Colleagues across the Table.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters for the Report of the Auditor-General on the Compliance Audit on the Awarding and Monitoring of Mining Rights for 2017 Accounts. I would like to particularly thank the officers from the Office of the Auditor-General who drafted the report for their discourse.

 

Madam Speaker, my team and I appeared before the Committee several times. Many of the issues that have been highlighted are issues that we provided responses to and spoke to in the report. Like I have indicated, I would like to agree most sincerely with the mover and the seconder, including Hon. Dr Imakando and Hon. Garry Nkombo for the passionate way in which they have debated and supported this audit report. I want to assure them of the Government’s commitment to ensuring that the recommendations in the report are adhered to for the common good of Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to particularly thank Hon. Dr Imakando for highlighting that if we are going to get benefits from the mining sector, we need to improve funding to the ministry in order to build capacity both in human capital and technical competencies. This will transform or change the perception of how these resources are generated. The Government has put a high premium on the mining industry to ensure that it mobilises resources from this sector to invest in other sectors such as agriculture and tourism which are also the bedrock of its diversification agenda.

 

Madam Speaker, to set the record straight, I would like to briefly respond to one or two issues that my friends and colleagues have brought to the Floor so that it is not cast in concrete as authority. Let me state that before you get approval from ZEMA, you need to get a licence. You cannot get a Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) approval without a licence. You can only get approval from ZEMA after you have a licence for an area. That is the process, according to the law. The licensing procedure indicates that a licence should be obtained within a period of sixty days. The ministry only sits on the licensing committee as a secretariat. For avoidance of doubt, the licensing committee has members from many stakeholders, not just from the Government. These come from the Engineering Institute of Zambia (EIZ), ZEMA and all facets of people who contribute to the well-being of the mining industry. This is meant to encourage transparency and accountability.

 

Madam Speaker, across the Table, I see quite a number of my hon. Colleagues who have mining rights. They have seen how judiciously my ministry operates to ensure that people obtain licences within the stipulated time by law.  The purpose is to break the red tape. I know that my distinguished hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Dr Kopulande, who spoke with a lot of passion, is aware of the processes that are undertaken at the ministry in terms of the licence procedure. The role of the ministry is to streamline processes and do its best for the country and mop up resources.

 

Madam Speaker, I do not want the hon. Members of this House to go with wrong information that I have been postured by some presentation despite the good advice that they have given to the ministry. Section 26 of the Act allows export of mineral samples by exploration licence holders. This is the law which they themselves passed. We must read and not just report. We must read the reports together with the Acts that we have already passed. Section 26 (a) allows the export of mineral samples by the exploration licence holders. However, Section 26 (2) allows the hon. Minister, by Statutory Instrument to determine the mineral sample to be removed from an exploration area for purposes of analysing the mineral content. Clearly, the people who have been exporting these mineral resources, by and large, ensure that they follow the law and that their activities are consistent with the provision of the Acts.

 

Madam Speaker, I also want to quickly look at a matter that was raised by my colleagues in terms of the financial and technical capacity of the ministry. I am glad to inform the House that the Government has given the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development Treasury authority to employ some technical staff to be placed in strategic places at exit points as a matter of priority. Perhaps, it is as a result of the interventions that hon. Members have been putting. As we speak, the recruitment process has started, and we hope that when I come back next time, I will talk about good figures in terms of human capital in that area.

 

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, I want to sincerely thank the hon. Members for the manner in which they have supported the ministry through this audit report. I want to assure you that all the issues that have been raised in the audit report will be adequately looked at to create efficiency, transparency and accountability as hallmarks of the PF Government.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to assure you that one of the bedrock principles of the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development relating to licensing and operating is running a fiscal regime which is simple, predictable, stable and anchored on the rule of law. These processes are what the PF is working on to ensure that it creates confidence in the mining industry.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Miti: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who contributed to the Report of the Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters. I would also like to thank the hon. Minister for the clarifications that he has given towards the points that were raised in the report. Further, I would like to thank all hon. Members who have supported the report of the Committee even silently as they sat in their seats.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

MOTION OF THANKS ON HIS EXCELLENCY THE PRESIDENT’S ADDRESS ON THE APPLICATION OF NATIONAL VALUES AND PRINCIPLES

 

(Debate resumed)

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, before business was suspended the day before yesterday, we established that there is no need for tribalism in this republic. It was also established that His Excellency the President was on point when he urged politicians to stop being tribal.

 

Madam, we have people in the political space that have set good examples of how people can conduct political discourse. His Excellency Dr Kenneth David Kaunda, His Excellency President Edgar Chagwa Lungu, the founder of the United Party for National Development (UNPD) Mr Anderson Kambela Mazoka and many others are very good examples of those who have set new frontiers this country should look at so that we overcome the economic challenges that beset us. That was what His Excellency the President was pointing the nation to. Using these principles and values, we should set course and look at economic diversification, grow our economy and see Zambia attain its full potential. The President was setting this nation on course and we dare listen to ensure that the future of our children is set.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Speaker –

 

Hon. Government Members: Stand up!

 

Mr Samakayi: I am already standing.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Indeed, you are, hon. Member. I can confirm that you are standing. Proceed.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, that is hate speech.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, it is not. Please proceed.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the people of Mwinilunga, through me, an opportunity to give our reflections on the Presidential Speech on the Progress made in the Application of National Values and Principles. I have picked a few paragraphs from the speech. In paragraph 23 of his speech, His Excellency the President was talking about violence in the country and that we need to end it. Yes, we need to end violence. In fact, we should have ended violence yesterday.

 

Madam Speaker, the responsibility to end violence lies squarely with the President of the Republic of Zambia. I say so because he has the state machinery at his disposal to crush any violence that emerges within this country or among political parties. However, what we have witnessed is that the President has been quiet all along ...

 

Dr Malama: Question!

 

Mr Samakayi: ... but I am happy that this time around, he has realised that he is the one with the responsibility, the resources and the one controlling the security machinery which can stop violence in this country.

 

Madam, the Opposition has no capability, whatsoever, to conceive, perpetrate and let alone, stop violence. It does not have the ability or the capability. It is the party in leadership through the President which has the ability to stop the violence. Members of the Opposition can only be victims at worst and defendants at best. They can only defend themselves. Otherwise, they are victims and that is what is happening. I am glad that the President has come through to order the youth of this country from all political parties to stop the violence. We need to stop here and reconstruct our country, our social, economic and political sectors as well as our cultural heritage. I commend the President for coming here and making that pronouncement.

 

Mr Speaker, if hon. Members on your right doubt who is perpetrating violence, I would like to pose a few questions to them. Firstly, who attacked president Hakainde Hichilema in Sesheke?

 

Mr Lusambo: Kangombe!

 

Mr Samakayi: Who killed Banda in Kaoma? Who attacked the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) discussants and the audience at the Intercontinental Hotel, just recently? Who sent cadres to the Chakwela Makumbi Traditional Ceremony in Chongwe to eat the food, so that they could attack Mr Hakainde Hichilema? You, hon. Members on the right have even been given a bill by her royal highness, which you have failed to pay.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mwinilunga, debate through the Speaker.

 

Mr Mutelo: Who sent the cadres?

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, I will debate through you.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my right!

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, I was saying who sent a hoard of cadres to the Chakwela Makumbi Traditional Ceremony in Chongwe, so that they could attack president Hakainde Hichilema and ended up eating the food that was prepared for the dignitaries in Chongwe?  Hon. Members on your right were given a bill, which they have failed to pay, by ...

 

Laughter

 

Mr Samakayi: ... Her Royal Highness Senior Chieftainess ...

 

Hon Government Members: You do not even know her name?

 

Mr Samakayi: ... Nkomeshya, in Chongwe.

 

Madam Speaker, who sent cadres to Mwinilunga’s Samuteba Ward in October with guns to disrupt the counting of votes? It is the Patriotic Front (PF). However, I am glad that the President has come out and stated that political violence needs to be stopped. I think that is commendable, but he is setting a benchmark against which he is going to be assessed on. From Friday, 6th March, 2020, I will see what is going to happen in terms of political violence. My take is that following the pronouncement by His Excellency the President to this House, violence has ended.

 

Madam Speaker, I move to paragraph 5 of the speech, where the President paid glowing tribute to those who participated in the Chilubi by-election adding that they enhanced the growth of democracy in this country. I would like to tell hon. Members on your right that democracy is not growing in this country. Democracy does not grow in an environment where there is violence. It does not grow in an environment where operations of the Opposition are stifled. Democracy does not grow in situations or conditions where the private media is muzzled. Democracy does not thrive in a condition where the public media does not feature the Opposition. Democracy does not grow in situations where police officers are compromised, neither does it grow in a situation where cadres from the ruling party become bloodhounds for the opposition cadres. I, therefore, wish to say that democracy in this country is not growing. We are going backwards as a country under the PF Government.

 

Madam Speaker, let me move on to paragraphs 25 and 26, where the President talked about tribalism. I hate tribalism myself because I have never benefited from it. I have only benefited from a situation where there was no tribalism and I will give this House a very good example. When I was working for the National Agriculture Marketing Board (NAMBOARD) many years ago, I was sponsored to pursue a three year course. What happened was that within one month, the branch I used to operate from was closed, and my employer had just paid for my tuitions for one year out of three years. The North-Western Co-operative Union then picked me. When I went back, they told me, “We cannot sponsor you.” Ask me who the general manager was. He was a Lunda. Ask me who the personnel manager was. He was a Lunda married to my cousin. Ask me who the training manager was. He was a Lucazi. All these people were from the North-Western Province.

 

Madam Speaker, luck came when the financial controller, a Briton went for holiday, and the general manager went for a short course. A Mr Tebeka from Kalomo, a Tonga, was then appointed general manager. A Mr Kapembwa from the Northern Province was appointed financial controller. That was my luck. They said, “No, we are going to sponsor this guy, this gentleman.”

 

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Samakayi: I am just emphasising the point that tribalism does not …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Withdraw the word, “guy.”

 

Mr Samakayi: Well, I am now a gentleman. I was a guy then.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Samakayi: So, tribalism does not help anybody. I want to tell the hon. Members that all of us are guilty of tribalism. All Zambians are guilty of tribalism. The President said that we should not entertain tribalism in this country and so, we need to redeem ourselves. We need to open a new page and move forward.

 

Madam Speaker, around the 1970s, there was a man from the Eastern Province who was challenged by a man from the Northern Province. People must have heard about the term “Kumozi Kumawa.” That was tribalism. People must have also heard about a convention of the United Party for National Development (UPND) which happened just recently, where three men from the Southern Province passed tribal sentiments against a Lozi man. These three men have since left the UPND and are now with the Patriotic Front (PF).

 

Laughter

 

Mr Samakayi: However, what we always hear is that Tongas and the UPND are tribal. We have also seen people in the Northern Province, Muchinga Province and the Eastern Province campaigning on tribal lines and no one is talking about it.

 

Mr Nkombo: Even in Chilubi!

 

Mr Samakayi: Even in Chilubi. I think that is not fair. Just as well, the President came down here to open a new page for all of us. In passing those tribal sentiments, HH was not involved. The people who were involved are now with the PF. They are its members.

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, I think that the issue of tribalism must end if we are to rebuild our country on a strong foundation. The PF was almost killing this country, as far as tribalism is concerned, …

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Samakayi: … and I am glad that the President came down here to open a new page for all of us. That is another benchmark that the President has made for all of us to follow. Let me take some water, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Samakayi drank water.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam Speaker, another worrying issue is that of gassing. It requires a deep reflection from all of us Zambians. The capabilities of everyone, especially those in leadership, came into the spotlight and into question during this time. We cannot have an attack or situation of that magnitude in the nation and the President is quiet. We cannot have a situation of that magnitude and the leadership is quiet and cannot motivate the people in the security wings to work hard. The problem we had was that when people went to the police to report, the police officers were reluctant to deal with the gassing inicidents. That is the reason people took the law into their own hands. We condemn that because it is not right. However, the police and the leadership did not help the situation. They went into hibernation. 

 

Mr Nkombo: They went under.

 

Mr Samakayi: Yes, they went under.

 

Madam Speaker, at the time the gassing incidents were happening, there was also a problem in Kenya. We saw the President of Kenya, Mr Uhuru Kenyatta, on television, addressing the people on the situation that had occurred there. That is statesmanship. If a peer review were carried out, we would find that this country is lagging behind.

 

Mr Lusambo: Question!

 

Mr Samakayi: Yes, it is lagging behind in terms of leadership. That same period, there was a problem in the United States of America (USA). The President, Mr Donald Trump, was also on public television giving hope to his people, but here, the leadership was in hibernation. What was if fearing? What was its problem?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, now it has boomeranged and the Government wants to constitute a commission of inquiry.

 

Mr Nkombo: To inquire what?

 

Mr Samakayi: Are you going to bring back to life the two people we lost in Mwinilunga through that commission? Are you going to bring back the life of fourteen year old Frank Mugala, Sydney Moonga, seventeen, and Timothy Haakuyu who was a good friend of mine for many years at Lusaka City Council (LCC) and the Ministry of Local Government. Are you going to bring him back to life.

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, debate through the Chair. Resume your seat, hon. Member.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Seriously, they are laughing while people’s lives have been lost.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on both sides of the House!

 

You see hon. Members, we discourage direct engagements for this same reason of interruptions. When you directly engage the people on my right, they are bound to react. This is what has just happened. You need to debate through the Chair in order for us to have orderly debates. Hon. Member for Samakayi, …

 

Laughter  

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, please resume your seat. I am still speaking. Hon. Member for Mwinilunga, as much as it is difficult to debate this particular aspect of the President’s statement, we must still avoid getting carried away by emotions. Proceed with your debate and heed my counsel, hon. Member for Mwinilunga and not for Samakayi.

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, thank you for your counsel. I was saying the commission of inquiry is not going to bring back the lovely lives that we have lost. The questions that the people of Zambia are asking are: firstly, why did the President not mourn with us?

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Samakayi: Where was the President all this long? When this was happening, why did he not come out?

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Hon. Member, you are in a wrong place.

 

Laughter

                      

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwinilunga, proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Nkombo moved back to his seat.

 

Mr Mwinilunga: Where was the President –

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Firs Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised, from the right place.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I was taken by emotion against your advice. However, I thank you profusely for allowing me to raise this point of order on the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga, for going on and on about the whereabouts of the Head of State during the time of seizures when he and the public know that the President was in Chilubi.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: Is he in order to continuously seek to know the whereabouts of the Head of State during the time of the attacks when he knows that the President was on Chilubi Island campaigning. I seek your ruling on this matter concerning the whereabouts of the President.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My serious ruling is that the hon. Member for Mwinilunga is in order, especially that the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, is trying to debate when he has already had an opportunity to debate.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mwinilunga will proceed with his debate.

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, thank you. I am even disoriented now. However, the point I was making is that I think that when we have issues of that magnitude, the leadership should come out and try to give hope and motivate those that are supposed to counter and challenge the issues that are confronting the nation. It is not right to keep quiet. It is not right to send –

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Samakayi: He is a terrorist.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, thank you for allowing to me rise on this important point of order.

 

Madam Speaker, this is a very important arm of Government and I think when we are engaging in debate, we must provide leadership. Of course, I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central tried to trivialise the issues that the hon. Member debating was raising, in particular, asking where the President was when the gassing incidents were taking place and that he is expressing some emotions.

 

Madam, through this august House, this Minister standing here, on behalf of the President who is the Commander-in-Chief, has come to share with the nation and this august House what was obtaining and what the Government was doing to protect its citizens. The Commander-in-Chief, himself, evoked the powers vested in him to ensure that the defence forces came on board. Is the hon. Member being sincere by questioning where His Excellency the President of Zambia, Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, was when the undesirable activities of suspected gassing and instances of mob justice, which was being meted by certain citizens on other members of the public, were taking place?

 

Is he in order to forget that the speech he is debating here in this House, which contained the update on the security situation, was done by His Excellency the President here? Is he in order to proceed in that fashion? I seek your serious ruling.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My serious ruling is that the hon. Member is in order to the extent that as far as he is concerned, at that time, he did not know where His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu was. He is, therefore, in order to question as he is doing. When the time comes, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is going to tell him where the President was.

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Speaker, President Uhuru Kenyatta has got hon. Ministers, but when gassing incidents happened in Kenya, the President came on television to address the nation. Moreover, that is what happens everywhere else in the world. You do not just send hon. Ministers –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I want to be very brief in my debate today.

 

Madam, I know that there used to be a man called Zacchaeus, who climbed a tree and was told to come down. The reason he climbed that tree was because he was too short and could not see what was happening ahead of him.

 

Madam Speaker, there is no doubt that His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, condemned these gassing incidences in the speech. Furthermore, there is no doubt that governance is a system. The President has got the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and other hon. Ministers. Moreover, if the President comes to this House to address this most important issue and someone says Uhuru Kenyatta went on television, was the Zambian President not on television when he was talking about gassing?

 

Madam, I wonder where this bitterness is coming from. However, I am aware that come 2021, when the President comes to open this House after the general elections, some people will be sure that the President knew what he was doing.

 

Madam Speaker, on this same issue of gassing, I am also wondering how our hon. Colleagues know the exact time of the gassing incidences and how they even know the victims and the people who have been killed? Five minutes after that incident, they are already aware of it. If they are not the ones involved –

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, we want to assure them that just like the President said –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Resume your seat, hon. Deputy Chief Whip.

 

Hon. Member, you know that you cannot be allowed to make such sweeping allegations and accusations. Withdraw that and proceed with your debate. You are a very senior hon. Member of the leadership of this House. Withdraw and proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, I thank you, and I withdraw the question as to how our hon. Colleagues know the exact time of the gassing incidents, the names of the victims and the people killed. I withdraw that and state that it is not in doubt or in dispute that some people think by coming up with acts like gassing, the people of Zambia will rise against their Government. We are aware of such kinds of people. Nevertheless, just like the President said, they will be crashed and buried.

 

Madam Speaker, I am aware that when we talk about democracy and good governance, the same people who were crying that they wanted Patricia Scotland to come and hold the National Dialogue Forum (NDF), are the ones who boycotted the same NDF. Therefore, what democracy are we talking about? People must be sincere. There will be no hypocrisy going forward because the people of Zambia are aware that you cannot cry lion and fail to show us where the lion is.

 

Madam, I am also aware that there is a Bill called the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, which is coming to this House, which is intended to enhance the democracy of this country. The same people who failed to calculate the fourteen days are refusing to add thirty days. We are aware that when that day comes, the same people –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

_______

 

The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 17th March, 2020.

 

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