Thursday, 18^th February, 2021

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SECOND DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

______

                                    

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

PUBLIC ORDER ACT

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Mr Speaker, following the failure by this House to pass the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, I wish to update this House on the status of the Bill. This House will recall that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs called for submissions from stakeholders on proposals to amend the Public Order Act on several occasions.

 

Sir, the Government demonstrated commitment to review the Public Order Act Chapter 113 of the Laws of Zambia, in line with Chapter 22 of the Patriotic Front (PF) manifesto which places an obligation on the Government to subject the review of the Public Order Act to enhance consultations with all stakeholders in order to arrive at a consensus. In this regard, the House will recall that in July, 2016, the Government, through the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Home Affairs, called for submissions on the review of the Public Order Act Cap 113 of the Laws of Zambia.

 

Mr Speaker, as a result of the few submissions received, the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue (ZCID), requested the Government to facilitate a meeting involving key stakeholders. To this effect, the Government invited all the key stakeholders to a national symposium for the drafting of the Political Parties Bill and the Public Order Bill which was held at the Mulungushi International Conference Centre, from 25^th to 29^th September, 2017.

 

Sir, additionally, provincial consultative meetings were held from 13^th to 16^th October, 2018, in order to receive further submissions on the reforms to the Public Order Act. Following the failure by people to make submissions, the Cabinet authorised the hon. Minister of Justice to facilitate the receipt of submissions and stakeholders consultations on the Bill, in order for the Bill to be drafted and presented to Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker, this consultation process culminated into the National Dialogue Forum which was held from April to May, 2019, and considered among other Bills, the Public Order (Amendment) Bill, which the forum approved for submission to Parliament. The Bill was later introduced to Parliament for first reading and at the second reading stage, the House resolved to defer consideration of the Bill, to await the outcome of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019. The Bill aimed at providing for, among other things, the effective implementation of the Public Order Act, in a transparent and fair manner.

 

Sir, the House will recall that in March, 2019, the Inter-Parliamentary Union Network and the Speaker of the National Assembly, facilitated a meeting with all hon. Members of Parliament, to share international best practices on matters relating to the Public Order Act. We received submissions, thereafter, on the amendment of the Public Order Act. This meeting which was held at Parliament from 20^th to 21^st March, 2019, gave rise to progressive submissions and recommendations which culminated in the drafting and subsequent introduction of the Public Order Bill No. 12 of 2019, to Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker, as the House is aware, the Public Order Bill No. 12 of 2019, as I said earlier, was deferred, as we awaited the outcome and consideration of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019. Let me indicate that the review of such politically sensitive Acts of Parliament, such as the Public Order Bill No. 12 of 2019, is best considered quite well before a general election. This is because politically sensitive Bills require consultation and consensus building. The implementation of the Public Order Bill of 2019 will, therefore, require further consultation because a lot of issues have arisen from the time the last consultative processes were undertaken and the Bill was drafted in May 2019. Even if the amendments were undertaken, the implementation would require sufficient time for law enforcement officers and other enforcement agencies to adequately prepare themselves and enforce the newly introduced measures.

 

Sir, in conclusion, let me state, in no uncertain terms, that the PF Government of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, was the first to pronounce its desire to amend the Public Order Act. The PF did not act out of cohesion by anyone. The PF desired to present an opportunity to the Zambians to amend their Public Order Act. I want to reassure the House and the nation at large, that His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, and his Government remain totally committed to the process of reviewing the Public Order Act.

 

Mr Speaker, had it not been for close proximity to the next elections, the process could now have started. Nonetheless, the proximity to the elections does not warrant or guarantee a smooth and objective handling of such an important piece of legislation. I would, therefore, like to state that the Government is committed to initiating this process soon after the 2021 General Elections. I want to end by assuring the people of Zambia that this is a commitment that the PF Government makes to them.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, you are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Justice.   

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, in his statement, the hon. Minister of Justice indicated that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government and the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, are anxious about the reforms of the Public Order Act, but at the same time, he said that this requires adequate preparations. What adequate preparations are these? Maybe, they just want to use the Public Order Act to restrict the Opposition. What adequate preparations need to be put in place before this Bill is looked at?

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, not too long ago, the country was entertained to a lot of drama around amendments to a number of pieces of legislation, including the Public Order (Amendment) Bill. The House will recall that during that discourse, a number of people in Parliament, if my memory serves me right, including the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i, indicated that when we brought up amendments to various pieces of legislation, including the Public Order Act, there was no sufficient consultation.

 

Mr Speaker, nonetheless, at that stage, we demonstrated that there was sufficient consultation. We had given people sufficient time, and that is how we came up with the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) approved Bill, which the hon. Minister of Home Affairs presented to this House for first reading. At the second reading stage, we were again told not to proceed because we wanted to conclude consultations on the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill of 2019, before considering the Public Order (Amendment) Bill. That is the consultation we are talking about.

 

Sir, I indicated that the fact that this Bill was adopted in May 2019, and there has been so many activities in our country that have taken place between now and then, naturally for us to restart the process, it will entail us to go back to the people to consult. We will also have to give the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i, an opportunity to make submissions so that at the end of it, nobody chooses to stay away from the process on the pretext that he/she was not consulted.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister should bear with me if I look annoyed. It is because I joined the women organisations who showed displeasure at one of the political parties that had a convention.  Instead of adhering to the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) protocol of 50/50 per cent, the percentage of women was 28.6 per cent, and that has really saddened many Non-Government Organisation (NGOs).

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, you need to ask the question.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, I was trying to put the hon. Minister at ease because of what the United Party for National Development (UPND) did, which has 28.6 per cent of women.

 

Sir, the hon. Minister has mentioned that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is committed to revisit the Public Order Act just after the elections.  The hon. Minister has had a lot of time since 2016, and he now has white hair. However, he has been forcing political parties to go and engage him at his office. What other strategy will the hon. Minister use to ensure that this time around, they will join us in the PF to work on the Public Order Act to the aspiration of the people of Zambia?

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, indeed, I have also been asking myself. How much time shall we require to convince everybody that we have given them sufficient time to make submissions? The reason for this question is because the House will recall that the then Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Davis Mwila, stood in this House in 2014, and asked for views for us to amend the Public Order Act. That Parliament came to an end. A new Parliament came into being, and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, Mr Stephen Kampyongo, when he still had some hair on his head that time, also came to Parliament and appealed to all of us to agree to make submissions. However, months later, no one submitted.

 

Sir, the Cabinet then felt that if people submitted submissions to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, he would not treat them with the respect they deserved and suggested that the hon. Minister of Justice should drive the process because it is a legal issue. We started the process in 2016, and up to date, 2021, some people are still saying that they did not have enough time. So, indeed, hon. Member for Kanchibiya, what will we do differently, after 2021? I am not too sure that there will be many things that we will do differently. We will start the process after the elections and after His Excellency the President is sworn in, and he will come back here and repeat this commitment.

 

Mr Speaker, my only hope and prayer is that the people of Zambia will give themselves a different complexion of Parliament so that they have the numbers that are required for them to legislate without hindrance or political manoeuvres. That is my prayer and I implore Zambians to pray with me that that should happen because that is going to be progressive for this country.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I want to state that the hon. Member for Kanchibiya will die from high blood pressure if he involves himself in things that he does not know. At least, the United Party for National Development (UPND) had elections, but for the Patriotic Front (PF), no one has been elected at the convention. Zero! They are all appointees.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

 Hon. Member, ask the question.

 

Mr Mwimbu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice indicated that as a result of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019 having been defeated, it has affected the passing of the Public Order Act. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Justice, which particular provision in the defeated Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 had an effect on the Public Order Act, taking into account that the Public Order Act is anchored on the Bill of Rights, which has not been affected by the defeat of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019? May I be advised?

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Leader of Opposition for requesting me to advise him. As my fellow veteran Parliamentarian, it only gives me great pleasure to advise him.

 

Sir, the first advice that I would like to give to him is on consistency. Consistency on matters that we talk about in Parliament is important. What we say today, we must be willing to say it tomorrow.  The second piece of advice is that the Public Order Act is indeed anchored on the Constitution of Zambia. However, it could have been and could be amended without the passage of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019. The third advice is on memory. As a Parliamentarian, he has to try to sharpen his memory because if he does not, he will run over his tongue.

 

Mr Speaker, what do I mean? Even in the midst of the debate around the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, did not say that he would not come until he had handled the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019. He was clear in his mind that the Public Order Act could be amended irrespective of the outcome of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019. He brought it for First Reading and Second Reading. Sir, it is about memory and consistency.

 

Sir, the other piece of advice is honesty or truthfulness. I would like to ask who was it on that day, who rose and said that we should defer the consideration of the amendment to the Public Order Act? The Hansard is there to show. What was the argument? The argument was that: “Mr Speaker, as far as we are concerned, let us defer the amendment of the Public Order Act until up to a finished Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019.” The hon. Minister of Home Affairs stood and said, “There is no relationship between the two. However, because we want to carry everybody on board, we will listen to you, we will defer.”

 

Sir, today, I did not say that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019 had an impact on the amendment of the Public Order Act. I just said that, following the failure of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019 – I did not drive any relationship between the two.

 

Mr Speaker, therefore, consistence is very important. I would like to end my advice to the Leader of Opposition, who is a veteran in the House like me, by saying, my dear friend, let us be consistent and truthful.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Mr Speaker, since I have come late, I hope my colleagues who asked earlier have not yet asked my question.

 

Sir, is the hon. Minister confirming to the people of this nation that this much talked about Public Order Act will be amended before the 2021 General Elections?

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, in my statement, I was very deliberate, and I indicated that politically sensitive laws such as the Public Oder Act are best handled a long distance in time before an election, and I gave reasons. One of them is that the environment around elections should not create subjectivity in handling such laws. Surely, today, in February, with a few months before Parliament is dissolved, for us to start talking about the Public Order (Amendment) Bill, which will affect the elections that are coming in August, is too close to the elections. I do not think that it would be prudent for us to commence the process because even the people who should be consulted are already attuned towards elections. Therefore, looking at that law would be too subjective. So, it will not be before the 2021 August Elections, but it will be commenced straight after the General Elections of 2021, under the tutelage of His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, let me thank the hon. Minister for his eloquent statement to the House and to the nation. However, my concern is about the stakeholders that will be involved in the consultations or in the roadmap that he will engage in, as he brings the Public Order (Amendment) Bill, after the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu is sworn in. Is the hon. Minister of the view that he is still going to consult political players in political parties that will be excessively frustrated and disappointed with the loss that they will go through on 12^th August? If that is the modus operandi, does the hon. Minister not think that probably he could have considered running a referendum alongside the 12^th August election that would have looked at all human rights, including the Public Order Act, that can be achieved in the referendum?

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, what I anticipate is that soon after the elections of 2021, some political parties like he said, will still be recovering from the eminent loss. Therefore, because of that, one would hope that they will look back and wonder what it is they should have had in the Public Order Act which could have given them better chances so that when we ask them to make proposals, they may come up with proposals that will enhance the political space, with the hope that the next time around, they may have a better chance of success.

 

Mr Speaker, therefore, I am happy to do it that way because we will be talking to people who will just be recovering and those people would obviously like to do things and create laws, which they think will advantage them the next time. I think this is a good place to do that unlike trying doing it now. So, we shall consult them. We will not stop. Even those who refused to be consulted shall be given the platform. If they choose to go and do what they did when we were talking about the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019, by going to respond in newspapers, hotels and on anthills. We shall still pay attention to them because we would like to take everybody with us.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

 Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Justice confirm that his party, the Patriotic Front (PF), is working with Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) like the Young African Leaders Initiative (YALI), which are busy making comments even when things are not the way the hon. Minister is putting them, especially on the Public Order Act. They have raised …

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise a very important and pressing point of order. I know that the new Information and Communication Technology (ICT) system is, of course, with us but I indicated to raise my point of order when the hon. Leader of the Opposition and Member of Parliament for Monze Central, was on the Floor.

 

Sir, I know that the hon. Minister of Justice is competently dealing with this matter through his responses. However, the record must be set straight. The hon. Leader of the Opposition and Member of Parliament for Monze Central, has just posed a question and forgot to remind himself, the House and nation that when this hon. Minister of Home Affairs was presenting the Bill for the second time, and because of the commitment we had and as instructed by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, it was him who rose on a point of order in this House. He strongly objected and made an appeal that he and his hon. Members on your left were not going to support the Bill on the Floor. He further suggested to the Leader of Government Business in the House, Her Honour the Vice-President, that the Bill be deferred. As a result of that, she guided us in that regard.

 

Mr Speaker, what goes around comes around, and hypocrisy will never have strong legs to stand on. Therefore, is he in order, today, to remain silent over the position he took, not to guide his hon. Members, whom he guided that time? Now, some of them are asking whether the Bill is coming before the 2021 elections. We do not work around the electoral cycle ourselves. We develop this nation in time, to work as the Government. Is he in order to remain mute and not acknowledge that it was actually him …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: You want me to reply, surely?

 

Mr Kampyongo: … who suggested in this august House that that Bill had to be deferred until the Constitution was dealt with first? I seek your serious ruling.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Well, the point of order was ably clarified by the hon. Minister of Justice and my ruling will be very brief. The hon. Minister of Justice had actually emphasised on that point. That is my ruling.

 

The hon. Member for Katombola was on the Floor. May he continue, please.

 

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, I was elucidating the fact that YALI, through its leader, Mr Ntewewe, has always been in the forefront in commenting on these matters, especially on the Public Order Act. As a matter of fact, the other Friday, when Her Honour the Vice-President was on the Floor answering a question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone, a question was posed on the Public Order Act and before the Government could respond, we saw the president for YALI commenting in the press. Therefore, can the hon. Minister confirm whether his Government is working with organisations like YALI and Mr Ntewewe, who is always in the forefront commenting on matters, when this must come from a government mouth piece?

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, once upon a time, I was a greenhorn in Parliament. Once upon a time, I was in the Opposition …

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I hope the hon. Minister of Justice is not bringing storytelling in the House.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lubinda: Sorry, Sir. I will not tell stories. It will not be pocheza mu mazulo nor will it be …

 

Mr Mundubile: Tumba ya mweli!

 

Mr Lubinda: … tumba ya mweli or jolezya.

 

Sir, I was just saying that when I was a young parliamentarian, sitting over there as an hon. Member of the Opposition, I also used to wonder how the Government operates. Now with ten years experience in statecraft, I have a clear understanding of how governments operate. Any government that is democratic and respects the views of people will listen to all and any legitimate organisation that operates within its country’s confines. That is what the Patriotic Front (PF) Government does. We listen to all, whether they are aligned to opposition or not.

 

Mr Speaker, I have lots of letters that come from different organisations in the Ministry of Justice. Some of these are organisations that you may think are bedfellows of some opposition political parties, but we still accommodate them. So, I want to confirm that when President Edgar Chagwa Lungu, says “governing without leaving anyone behind,” that is exactly what he means. I have received a lot of valuable advice from institutions, some of which I do not want to name because if I do, I may be exposing them to be either aligned to one or the other political arrangement. However, the short of it all is that citizens, as individuals or their groupings are at liberty to comment on matters that affect all and sundry.

 

Sir, I have no shame whatsoever in accepting counsel from the Young African Leaders Initiative (YALI). They are organisations, of course, that I would not like to associate with. For instance, one that comes to my mind is the African Liberal Network (ALN). If they came to me and told me about their strange sexual orientation, I will say, “No, thank you.” However, I know that those are the ones who are friends of the one who asked the question.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I am following the hon. Minister, but I am all at sea, in trying to imagine where he is drawing courage from, as if he was in heaven, consulting from God whether the Patriotic Front (PF) will be in power after 12^th August, 2021 or not. However, from the time the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, fell off, why has it taken him all this time to come back to Parliament with a ministerial statement on this subject? It has been four months down the line, since that happened. As for me, there was time to address this matter earlier. So, why has it taken long to come back to the House other than February?

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, by the grace of God Almighty, I have gone through four elections successfully. I have also been associated to a political party that has gone through elections successfully. Experience is a very good teacher.

 

Sir, for an experienced politician, the clouds show. If it is going to rain, the clouds will show for an experience farmer. Actually, when you hear the people who have never managed to win say that they are winning, one who has won elections before, will see that there is nothing that shows any resemblance of them winning and he will get surprised. Have they consulted God? For us, God has given us the opportunity to experience what it means to win. So, we can see and it is plain for everyone to see that come August 2021, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu will be sworn in.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, it is plain to see and it is very clear. So, I do not even have to say that I consulted because it is very clear.  I am sure when we come back in September 2021, the numbers here will be different, by the grace of God.

 

Sir, regarding the question as to why I took so long, when the hon. Leader of the Opposition stood here and convinced all of us to defer the consideration of the Public Order (Amendment) Bill, 2019, the people he leads are the ones who were following more. However, I am surprised that some of the people he leads did not even understand what he was talking about. After he achieved his objective of deferring the amendment of the Public Order Act, we thought that is what they wanted and had achieved their goal, but again, they started complaining about the Public Order Act. So, it took me long because I did not expect that there will be need for me to do it because I thought that they were convinced that they had achieved their objective. However, after hearing them lamenting, I found it to be my duty to make this clear so that everybody understands and appreciates why we are where we are.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Let me also accommodate the hon. Members requesting to participate via Zoom.

 

Mr Nkombo: Sir, in his statement, the hon. Minister indicated that from the time the Bill was drafted in 2019, many circumstances have changed. Could the hon. Minister kindly favour me with an answer by stating what the circumstances he is speaking about are?

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, firstly, one of the very obvious circumstance which I would like to refer to is the change of leadership in the United Party for National Development (UPND). There has been a change of leadership in the main Opposition political party, which caused the deferment of that Bill. So, if we are to bring it now, the people who are leading the UPND are not the same ones who were leading it at that time. Is that not obvious for everyone to see?

 

Mr Speaker, secondly, at the time the Bill was deferred, the issue was that we were debating the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, 2020. It is now behind us so the circumstance has changed. Is it not clear to see? Thirdly, the Bill was drafted in 2019 and the elections were to be held in 2021 or two years ahead, but the circumstance has changed. We are now in February, and a few months before August. There are numerous circumstances that have changed, including I suppose, the change of heart by some people who opposed the Bill. That is the reason they are now agitating for it. These are the changed circumstances.

 

 I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Mr Speaker, other than the failure to enact the Public Order Act, could the hon. Minister tell us what other disadvantage was achieved by not bringing the Bill vis-a-vis the delimitation of constituencies and many other things that hon. Members of Parliament wanted to achieve?

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, in response to one of the questions that was posed during the Vice-President’s Question Time on one of the Fridays, Her Honour the Vice-President and Leader of Government Business in this House lamented the fact that the failure to amend the Constitution of Zambia, caused none movement on a number of very important consequential Bills. One that comes to mind is the Political Parties Bill. This House will recall that this Government drafted the Political Parties Bill, which was debated at the NDF, which however, could not be presented because we were waiting for the outcome of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill. So, there are many Bills that were affected and I do not think it will be in the hon. Member’s interest and that of Parliament for me to go through all of them. However, I just want to acknowledge that, indeed, like Her Honour the Vice-President indicated, there are quite a number of Bills that would have emanated from the passage of the amendment of the Constitution.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the eloquent answers as regards the Public Order Act.

 

Sir, previous reforms have met resistance from certain quarters of society, whereas the people of Serenje have been ready to participate in such reforms.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for according me this opportunity to raise a very serious point of order.

 

Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice came to this House to make a very specific statement on the Floor of the House pertaining to the issue of the Public Order Act. On several occasions, you have guided this House that we cannot start bringing in peripheral issues that have nothing to do with the statement on the Floor of the House. I have just heard the hon. Member for Msanzala bring in issues that have been paining him and have made him have sleepless nights in Msanzala over the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019.

 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice’s statement has nothing to do with the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, and the aspirations, lamentations and cries of the Patriotic Front (PF) over its death or demise. Is the hon. Member for Msanzala in order to mourn, lament and roll all over the ground over the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, which is not an issue on the Floor of the House, and to start bringing in issues that are not under consideration?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: My ruling is that we have, indeed, been guiding hon. Members to ensure that when asking questions, they concentrate on what is being debated to avoid such points of order. The hon. Member for Msanzala brought that issue because the hon. Minister of Justice talked about the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, in connection with the main topic. Going forward, my guidance is that let us pay attention and ensure that when an hon. Minister is giving a statement, we get its contents because that is where we develop our questions from. So, going forward, as hon. Members of this august House, it is important that we take that into consideration.

 

May the hon. Member for Serenje continue.

 

Mr Kabanda: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the eloquent responses he is giving to the people of Zambia regarding the Public Order Act.

 

Sir, previous reforms have suffered major setbacks because certain quarters of society have been reluctant to participate whereas the people of Serenje have readily come over to participate in such reforms. Have the dynamics now changed that people are now pushing for reforms regarding the Public Order Act? Could the hon. Minister inform the nation as to what has changed this time around?

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, one has to look at the quarters that are demanding for the amendment of the Public Order Act for him to be able to answer that question. If everybody is seeing things the way I am seeing them, I can observe that the demands for amending the Public Order Act are coming from the same constituency which was represented opposing the amendment of the same Act and the question is, what has changed? I think nothing has changed. It is just a sign of inconsistency and making decisions based not in the great interest of the people but in the interest of either individuals or their political groupings. This is the only deduction I can make and this is the reason today, some people are asking questions about mourning, grieving and crying. We have brought ourselves here because of insincerity. At that time, it sounded very politically astute to come and say, stop it, but afterwards, we realised that what we actually stopped was not only in our best interest, but the country at large. So, that is the reason.

 

Sir, I implore Hon. Kabanda to go back to Serenje to tell the people of Serenje that this country needs men and women who put the interest of the country first before their myopic parties and interests. This has been demonstrated. If one looks at the Public Order (Amendment) Bill, many people are asking how President Edgar Lungu can allow me and my friend the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to give in so much that even Opposition political parties can now have meetings without informing the police. People are asking us and we have been saying that our President is a great son of the nation who wants to ensure that as he governs this country, no one feels estranged or that their space is being taken away. He would like everyone to participate freely, fairly and squarely so that even when the vote is counted, people lose squarely.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I will get three more and then we will conclude.

 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, my question is a rider to the one asked by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central. The hon. Minister said that certain changes in the leadership roles in the United Party for National Development (UPND) affected the flow of work, for lack of a better term because that is not the one he used, with regard to the topic at hand. Instead of him generalising, which specific leadership roles in the UPND changed that affected the flow of the governance system in Zambia? I must say that I am a very proud UPND member because the UPND (inaudible) then at the end of the day we control the systems in the country.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, did you get the question?

 

Mr Lubinda indicated assent.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, can you clarify that question.

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I can only attribute that question to the possibility of network interference and the hon. Member may not have heard what I said.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member really heard what I said, she would not have asked that question. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central asked me what I meant when I said that we cannot bring the Bill that we drafted in 2019 now and proceed with it because circumstances have changed, and he asked me to clarify the circumstances that I was talking about.

 

Sir, I did not say that there is no flow of work because of the change of leadership in the UPND. I said that, for instance, the change of leadership or political guard in the main Opposition political party in Parliament is one circumstance that has changed. The people who were there when our colleagues opposed the passage of that Bill are now different. The leadership of that party is now different and that is a changed circumstance. I do not think it will be fair for me to just say that even if they have changed players, they are the same people let us proceed because the new ones might have a different position on the Public Order Act, and the Government would like to hear them. That is what I said.

 

Mr Speaker, talking about pride, I wonder who should be proud – I am proud to be associated with a political party that was in the Opposition for ten years and straight after that, it is in Boma or the Government, and it is going on. I am proud to be associated with this party. I am responding to the pride registered by my hon. Colleague, and whilst she is proud, I am equally proud to be associated with the winners.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Subulwa (Sioma): Mr Speaker, clearly, it shows that the issues brought in by the hon. Minister and what I am getting, as a new hon. Member, is that the Opposition party is ever shooting down progressive Bills that are brought to Parliament. This is quite worrying. We should know what to politicise and what to take seriously in the House.

 

Sir, what measures has the hon. Minister put in place to educate the Opposition on the need to take amendments, like the Public Order Act, seriously and not shoot them down, once the process is put in place?

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I am at a loss for words with which to thank the hon. Member for the very important reflection and question. In response to her question on what it is that we shall do. Firstly, I want to recognise the warm heartedness of the Leader of Opposition when he actually solicited advice from me. That is a starting point. Across the political divide, we must be willing to listen and respect each other’s views. Not constantly chastise each other. What led to this was the lack of sincerity as has been illustrated today. It was purely a desire to show the people of Zambia that we have power to stop the Government. However, what is the outcome?

 

Sir, secondly, the Patriotic Front (PF) has not lost, not at all. I want to emphasise that I mentioned earlier in one of the sittings when I indicated that, actually, the Public Order Act (Amendment) Bill was taking some of those things which the Opposition were thinking that the Ruling Party can abuse. They were removing them. As the Government, we were willing to go ahead because President Edgar Chagwa Lungu and his Cabinet would like to be bequeath to the Zambian people a political landscape where they are free to interact and express themselves.

 

Mr Speaker, however, who shot the Bill down? Indeed the hon. colleague did indicate that she is a young Parliamentarian, yet very progressive because I have also heard her oppose and support things on principle. That is how Parliament must operate.

 

Sir, in this party, you might wish to know that we also hold divergent views on some issues. However, we follow the principle of collective responsibility and democratic tenancies. We do not stop people purely because we want to score, settle scores, or score goals. We do it in the interest of the Zambian people.

 

I thank you, Sir.

_______

                                                                                                                                  

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

MKUSHI DISTRICT ROADS REHABILITATION

 

140. Ms Mwape (Mkushi North) asked the Minister of Local Government:

 

1. when the rehabilitation of township roads in Mkushi District will be completed;
2. what the cause of the delay in completing the project is;
3. who the contractor for the project is; and
4. what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

 

The Minister of Local Government (Dr Banda): Mr Speaker, in response to the question raised by the hon. Member, I wish to inform this august House that the rehabilitation of township roads in Mkushi District was due to be completed in December, 2020. However, due to budgetary constraints, the time frame for the completion of works has been adjusted to December 2021, subject to availability of funds.

 

Sir, the delay in completing the project is due to budgetary constraints. The name of the contractor is Stalwart Investment Limited and the time frame for the completion of the project was initially 14 months. However, having adjusted the completion date, the time frame is now 26 months.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Zimba (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, the challenges that the people of Mkushi are going through are basically the same as the people of Chasefu. Are there any programmes which the hon. Minister may avail Parliament concerning the construction of roads in the many districts that are affected by bad roads?

 

Dr Banda: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member is aware that the Government, through the Ministry of Local Government has procured works in almost all the districts of this country where township roads are concerned, including feeder roads. It is an ongoing programme, and when funds are available, we will attend to all the problems relating to township and feeder roads.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Ng’ambi (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the progressive response he has given on the rehabilitation of roads in Mkushi District. This challenge is across the country as alluded to by the hon. Member for Chasefu. The hon. Minister is aware that even those of us in urban areas have serious challenges with the rehabilitation of township roads.

 

Mr Speaker, the roads in Chifubu are as bad as the ones in Mkushi, but I know that this hard working Government under the leadership of the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, had put in place C400 to cover some of these roads in Chifubu and Ndola districts, and generally on the Copperbelt. However, these projects have stalled due to several other challenges.

 

Sir, as the hon. Minister gives this important preference to the road rehabilitation in Mkushi, is he able to also come up with a robust or very strategic national plan so that all of us in all the constituencies across the country know when our roads in Chifubu, Chasefu, Sioma, and so on, will be worked on, bearing in mind that the situation in Chifubu, in my view, requires very urgent attention? As the hon. Minister looks at Mkushi, is he also considering all the other districts in this country?

 

  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

The Second Deputy Speaker: We must bear in mind that the question is on Mkushi. I could hear people trying to ask questions in a stylish manner by including their constituencies and districts. We need to look at the question because it is almost the same as asked by the hon. Member from Chasefu and because of that, I will not admit it. We have to move on and the question is on Mkushi.

 

Mr Lumayi (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to tell the nation what the budget to construct the road works in Mkushi is, and how much has been released this year by the Treasury?

 

Dr Banda: Mr Speaker, the initial contract sum that was budgeted to construct the roads in Mkushi was K123,142,060.36.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

The Second Deputy Speaker: I will get the last one via Zoom

 

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, I would like to give the hon. Minister, a background to the Mkushi Township roads. The Mkushi Township Roads Project started in 2013, under Karen Motors Limited. In 2017, the contact was terminated because of the contractor’s poor working culture. However, he failed the people of Mkushi. When I became hon. Member of Parliament, I found this project. You might be aware that I have been insisting over this road because of how the people of Mkushi feel about it.

 

Sir, after the contract was terminated, it was given to Stalwart Investment Limited, a company that started its work on the same road in early 2018 to date. From the time the construction of this road started in 2013, and after the contract was terminated, the people of Mkushi North have been expectant. The working Government has worked on some roads in Mkushi, such as the Musofu Road, Fiwila Road, and township roads.

 

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, will you ask your question.

 

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, we would like to know why local contractors have failed the people of Mkushi, twice now. We are talking of two contractors and this has been too much for the people of Mkushi. I want –

 

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I am sure the hon. Minister got your question. You would like to know why local contractors have failed the people of Mkushi.

 

Ms Mwape: The people of Mkushi are listening and they need answers –

 

 Interruptions

 

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Minister is responding to your question. You may miss it.

 

Dr Banda: Mr Speaker, much as the hon. Member attempted to give the background, maybe I can also help her, and the rest, to understand more on that background.

 

Sir, it is true that the contract was first awarded to Karen Motors Limited in September 2013, but due to lack of performance, the contract was terminated in June 2017. Thereafter, the contract was awarded to two other companies, Wah Kong Enterprises Limited and JV Stalwart Investment Limited, in 2017. However, along the way, there must have been a misunderstanding between the two companies and upon the revision of the contract in 2019, and not in 2018. Wah Kong Enterprises Limited pulled out and the contract remained with Stalwart Investment Limited. That is the contractor who is now on site and when money is available, the contractor will proceed with the works. The contract is already procured.

 

­­_______

 

BILL

 

SECOND READING

 

THE ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS AND TRANSACTIONS BILL, 2020

 

The Minister of Transport and Communication (Mr Kafwaya): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 

Mr Speaker, I sincerely thank you for giving me an opportunity to talk about the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill, 2020.

 

Sir, His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, President of the Republic of Zambia, requires our social and economic environment to continue developing to the benefit of human condition. Consequently, he has urged for identification of opportunities to improve our legal and policy frameworks in the Republic.

 

Mr Speaker, this, with the global and regional moves to harmonise cyber related laws, have necessitated the amendment of the Electronic Communications and Transactions Act No. 21 of 2009. In addition to the modernisation of the law, the amendment is also aimed at bringing the legal framework in conformity with regional model laws, and closing the gaps in the current laws, which have been identified as follows:

 

1. inadequate provisions for authentication of electronic signatures;
2. inadequate provisions for authentication and functional equivalence of equivalent electronic documents such as electronic contracts and electronic wills among others.
3. inadequate provisions on the admissibility of electronic evidence in court;
4. inadequate  provisions for online consumer protection, particularly with reference to online markets; and
5. lack of legal provisions for registration of authentication institutions.

 

Mr Speaker, the proposed law proposes to plug the gaps as follows:

 

1. the introduction of the National Root Certification Authority (NRCA) which will play a key role in the authentication process as this will ensure that certification authorities, time-stamping services providers, cryptography service providers and other service providers are issued digital certificates that contain identity credentials to help websites, people, and devices representing their authentic online verified identity in order to create trust in propelling online transactions;
2. enhanced provisions only admissibility of electronic evidence and give legal recognition of electronic communications; and
3. with reference to online markets, the Bill provides for consumers to only receive advertisement for specified products and services when they consent to receiving the communications. This will reduce the number of unsolicited advertisements that we have all experienced as we transact online.

 

Mr Speaker, the Government has made several strides to enhance access to and use of ICTs and the internet, which has resulted in the provision of quality services via electronic platforms across the country. A number of electronic systems have been developed, deployed and used by both public and private sector institutions providing online transactions and information services that have increased operational and administrative efficiency.

 

Sir, it is, thus, cardinal for the Government to ensure that our people conduct their business safely as they make use of these electronic platforms and that is the aim of this Bill. Once this Bill is enacted by this august House, it will:

 

1. enhance confidence in the use of electronic platforms and growth in utilisation of electronic payment platforms;
2. boost electronic commerce and electronic government service provision;
3. promote legal certainty and confidence as well as encourage investment and innovation in the electronic communications industry; and
4. facilitate the creation of secure communication systems and networks, among others.

 

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you and I beg to move.

 

Mr Imbuwa (Nalolo): Mr Speaker, the Committee on Media, Information and Communication Technologies was tasked to scrutinise the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill No. 29 of 2020.

 

Sir, the Bill intends to:

 

1. enhance and provide for a safe and effective environment for electronic transactions;
2. promote secure electronic signatures;
3. facilitate electronic filing of documents by public authorities;
4. provide for the use, security, facilitation and regulation of electronic communications and transactions;
5. promote legal certainty and confidence;
6. encourage investment and innovation in relation to electronic transactions;
7. regulate the national public key infrastructure; and
8. repeal and replace the Electronic Communications and Transactions Act No. 21 of 2009.

 

Mr Speaker, all the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee supported the Bill, save for a few concerns. The Committee notes that the long title for the Bill does not seem to reflect its object as espoused in the Bill. This is so because the title of ‘Electronic Communication and Transactions Bill’ appears to be limited to the establishment of the Information and Communications Technology Association of Zambia (ICTAZ) and regulation of the attendant professionals. In this regard, the Committee strongly recommends that the long title should be amended to reflect the object of the Bill.

 

Sir, under Clause 29, which provides for classes of entities that will qualify to apply for a certification authority licence under the national public key infrastructure, the Committee is of the view that the clause should be amended to provide that for a company to qualify to be a certification authority, it should adopt, implement and be certified against the International Organisation for Standardisation and the International Electrotechnical Commission (ISO/IEC 27001), which is basically the information security management system. In this vein, the Committee recommends that the Bill should include the requirement for certification authority to be suitably qualified under the best international recognised standards and certifications.

 

Mr Speaker, another matter which the Committee wishes to highlight is on encryption limitations as provided under Clause 86 of the Bill, which provides, inter-alia, that nothing in the Act shall be construed as requiring use by a person of any form of encryption that limits or affects the ability of a person to use encryption without a key escrow function. In this regard, the Committee recommends that the standard encryption algorithm designed to limit the encryption of information should be introduced, given that the objective of the encryption is not only to secure data, but give inspectors and security agencies, the ability to urgently have access to information contained on a suspect’s encrypted devise.

 

Sir, in conclusion, allow me to render my sincere gratitude to you and the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance and support rendered to the Committee throughout its deliberations. Gratitude also goes to all stakeholders who appeared before the Committee.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time has expired.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for this opportunity.

 

Sir,  first of all, I wonder why the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalolo’s time always runs out every time he is presenting a report. Before he finishes, the time is gone. I wonder whether the time should be increased or maybe he can be told to finish fast because at the end of the day, the Business of the House is being affected.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, that is not necessary. That is why we have the clock.

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance.

 

Sir, secondly, I have been raising a point of order for the last one hour and I have not been recognised. I hope I will be given a chance to raise my point of order.

 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that some people have been celebrating that the United Party for National Development (UPND) had a convention. The people of Zambia are wondering where in the world you would have a team elected, but not know the position people have been elected to. Only one person knows the position they have been elected to. So, people should stop celebrating because there is nowhere in the world that you can choose leaders who do not know which position they hold. I think the people of Zambia deserve better jokers than these.

 

The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, debate the report.

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance. I will come back to that issue in my point of order.

 

Sir, I support the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill, 2020 and I want to state that everything has now become electronic. I am aware that when one goes to the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources, he/she is able to pay his/her ground rate bill electronically. We now have issues of electronic signatures and electronic transactions like bank transfers to mobile money and from mobile money to bank accounts. There are now a lot of electronic platforms and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is alive to that fact, and that is why it is trying to introduce amendments to this Act.

 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that, not long ago, the people of Zambia were wondering what the Government would do to people abusing social media, electronic platforms and personal data. The time has now come for all reasonable hon. Members of Parliament to support such an amendment.

 

Yesterday, I overheard the hon. Member for Liuwa lament why the Government wanted data to be protected and why it was requesting for data commissioners and data auditors. I just want to refresh his memory that he has a WhatsApp number on his phone –

 

Dr Musokotwane: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I have been listening very carefully to the hon. Member for Kabwe Central’s debate from the start to now. The Bill being debated is straightforward, the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill, but the hon. Member is all over the place, talking about conventions and something that was discussed yesterday. I do not know what else he is going to talk about. Can the hon. Member be directed to focus, as lawyers normally do, on the matter at hand and not to be all over the place? Is he in order to be all over the place instead of focusing on the key issue?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

 

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Definitely, my ruling is that the hon. Member for Kabwe Central is not in order and that was the reason I guided him. Sometimes, let us debate some of these things seriously without bringing in politics, and that is important. That is my ruling.

 

May the hon. Member for Kabwe Central continue while adhering to my ruling.

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, yesterday, the hon. Member for Liuwa was wondering why data must actually be regulated. I just want to remind him that his number is connected to WhatsApp, but the data is not in Zambia, but somewhere in the United States of America (USA). He has a Facebook account, but he is not worried that his data is in the USA. So, there is nothing wrong with the Government creating data commissioners or data auditors because we realise that the world has now evolved. Almost everywhere people make an electronic application and they are asked to put their phone number, electronic mail address or full name. So, they give people their personal data without knowing the server and they will keep it on. That is why there is a need to amend some laws so that we can move in tandem.

 

Sir, many years ago, who knew that electronic platforms would become the order of the day? We have paperless transactions everyday and we are now conducting zoom meetings and everything is almost paperless. What happens if people get hold of this data and abuse it? Further, I am aware of a political party that thrives on abusing personal data. It goes to the extent of stealing Government documents and forging documents for purposes of increasing its chances of forming Government, but it has failed. So, I want to remind the hon. Member for Liuwa and the United Party for National Development (UPND) that the people of Zambia are alive to the fact that the world has evolved and that there is a need for some laws to change in order that we move at the same pace, together with the rest of the world.

 

Sir, in conclusion, it is not impossible that the laws can change every day. Zambia is moving with the rest of the world, such as the African Union (AU), the United Nations (UN) and everything like that. So, if people do not understand what is happening in the world, how are they going to run this country? When will they form Government? If people who have been in the Government before have become so forgetful, how will they manage to run the Government when these are the people who are saying that they are forming Government? How will they run Government without understanding how it runs?

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.  

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, I will come back.

 

Mr Lumayi (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving the wonderful people of Chavuma, this opportunity to contribute to the Bill on the Floor of the House.

 

Sir, from the outset, I want to put it on record that as a representative of Chavuma, I am not in support of this Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, this Bill –

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised. This will be the last point of order.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we are always advised to raise points of order contemporaneously. With your indulgence, could you, please, get the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central to return because the point of order is on him.

 

Sir, in his deliberations and in my view, the hon. Member went completely off course the parliamentary courtesies and etiquettes. We all know that there are people with mother tongue interferences, meaning that they do not speak the English Language in the manner that is supposed to be spoken. There are also people who are natural stammers, which is a disorder. I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalolo has that problem and it is not his decision.

 

Mr Speaker, Mr Ngulube also went further within your earshot and used the word ‘steal’, and it was allowed to pass. My point of order is: Is the hon. Member in order to abuse the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalolo, Mr George Imbuwa, when he knows that by nature, even if he is speaking his vernacular language, he does not speak fast? Is he in order to make fun of him and to also use the word ‘steal’ here in the Chamber?

 

Sir, I seek your ruling on this matter.

 

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: My ruling is that on the issue of the hon. Member who was debating, I guided him. He talked about time and I guided him that that is why we have a clock on the wall. If it is time up, we guide the hon. Member debating to stop. I think I guided him on that issue. In my own understanding, I did not view the hon. Member for Kabwe Central’s comment as teasing the hon. Member for Nalolo.

 

 Mr Nkombo interjected.

 

 Mr Second Deputy Speaker: No, I am making a ruling. I did not connect the comment to the way you have brought it out in your point of order and I believe that I guided. Concerning the word he used, yes, sometimes, hon. Members need to help the Chair by avoiding using words which are not allowed in the House. On that point, the hon. Member for Kabwe Central was not in order. That is my ruling.

 

Mr Ngulube interjected.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

 

If you have a complaint hon. Member, you know the procedure. You can get the verbatim. As far as I am concerned, I have made my ruling.

 

May the hon. Member for Chavuma continue. 

 

Mr Lumayi: Mr Speaker, I was saying that I want to put in on record that as a representative of the good people of Chavuma, I am against this Bill.

 

Sir, Section 27(1)(2)(3) of the Bill provides for establishing a central monitoring and co-ordination centre for lawful interception of communication and data. We shall be living in a country that is like a big brother house with cameras all over.

 

Mr Speaker, invasion of privacy on private citizens will be the order of the day by security agencies. Zambia is a democracy, which we got in 1991. People must have freedom to communicate and interact. When we introduce this Bill, it is going to limit the freedom of expression by the citizens of this Republic. It reduces freedom, completely. Therefore, there will be a lot of spying, and this Bill is going to be abused.

 

Mr Speaker, Zambia is a democratic country. We have moved ages to bring democracy in the Republic of Zambia. This entails that the citizens of this Republic must be free to communicate with one another. They must be free to express the wrongs they see in whoever is leading them in whatever kind of society or protocol. Therefore, introducing such kind of a Bill, which will allow security agencies to search my phone or home at anytime, is unacceptable. Everywhere where these cyber security Bills are, this is what happens when they are accepted. As a representative of the people of Chavuma, I do not want them to be subjected to the rhetoric kind of leadership, like it happened before Zambia became an independent country. The reason Zambia is a democratic is to allow citizens to express themselves freely.

 

Mr Speaker, this Bill may be good to those who want to use it to antagonise their fellow politicians but believe you me, tomorrow it is going to hunt them. Therefore, I want to stand with other hon. Members of Parliament in the Republic of Zambia, who are saying “no” to this Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, I submit.

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, I do appreciate the opportunity you have given me to support this very important Bill. Picking up from my dear colleague who was debating, I want to say that, as hon. Members of Parliament, we must be factual and debate from a point of knowledge. To express ignorance using this august House is being unfair to the people we represent.

 

Sir, I have the Report and in its conclusion from your Committee, and for the purpose of convincing the hon. Member who is alone but thinks there are others who are also opposing this Bill. It says:

 

“The Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill, No. 29 of 2020 if enacted, will provide for the use, security, facilitation, and regulation of electronic communications and transactions and promote legal certainty and confidence, and encourage investment and innovation, in relation to electronic transactions. If it is enacted, it will ensure that there is regulation on collection, use, transmission and storage of personal data. This Bill is, therefore, progressive.”

 

Mr Speaker, this is the Report from your Committee. How then can a hon. Member of Parliament, who represents people, surely come and express his ignorance and debate from nowhere?

 

Sir, this progressive Bill has come as a result of the world we are in. The hon. Member transacts every day. The transactions the hon. Member makes when sending money through Airtel Money or any other platform have to be regulated and managed. He must know that with improved electronic transactions, also comes fraud. So, what this Bill is providing for, is to ensure that all those fraud cases, and the crime that comes as a result of these improved transactions, are also dealt with by law enforcement agencies.

 

Sir, we are coming from transactions where physical receipts are used and could be tendered in legal proceedings. How do we provide what should be admissible in the courts of law in terms of evidence where someone has been swindled by transferring money from one phone to another? These are the issues we are dealing with. So, when you come here as a hon. Member of Parliament and say that you do not support the Bill, then who are you representing because the people of Chavuma need protection? Those who transact every day using phones and are being swindled by people who ask them to send their number or something else are the people we need to protect.

 

Mr Speaker, the President came and sat where you are sitting and promised the people of Zambia that the Patriotic Front (PF) is going to transform the way the business is done as a nation, be it in Government or private, by embracing Information Communication Technology (ICT), going smart. However, the people on your left, like that hon. Member, were asking: “What is smart?” Are you going to be sweeping the whole country? Today, I do not know how we could have been transacting business. You are here, and are able to interact with your hon. Members of Parliament because of the progressive Government which has embraced ICT as a way to transact. If we do not put measures in place, all these achievements which we have recorded in the ICT sector could come to haunt us. So, as we progress, we need to put measures in place. I want to encourage the hon. Minister to ensure that we quickly start enforcing these pieces of legislation when they are enacted.

 

Mr Speaker, we cannot remain static. We are progressing and must progress with the pieces of legislation.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, of course, we are not against Bills but when they come with a number of good things in it, and yet put in one thing that will infringe on people’s freedom, then that Bill becomes bad. As hon. Members of Parliament, we speak on behalf of our people and not out of ignorance. I want to comment on the part of this Bill where I am not very comfortable. When they talk of regulating data, whose data do they want to control? This Government wants to control everything. They cannot talk of fraud cases that have happened through the internet because the police have been able to arrest people in connection with that. Whether one steals from a house, radio or anywhere, as long as one has committed a fraudulent act, the police have been able to arrest the culprits. Even the fraud that has been conducted over the internet, the police have been able to arrest the people who committed it. The current laws of Zambia allow the police to do that but what we are commenting is that, we know that the PF have run down the economy.

 

Mr Speaker, look at the issue of the licence. The licence that we are talking about is very unfair. They want to charge people for everything, including breathing. Do I need a licence for my own data which I put on my computer to offload or manage it? What job will the person who gets a licence be doing? Already the internet is being taxed. We are taxed by using internet and now for my own data, I am taxed. How many people are you going to levy? So, you are going to give all the people that are using the internet and want to keep data licences which will expire and be renewed. These are some of the things that our people are complaining about. Even this term of regulating data must be very clear. How do you regulate somebody’s data?

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Kamboni: Sir, they want to go into other people’s bedrooms, and everywhere. There will be no more freedom in this country. The Government wants to go into everything. Now, we have cameras which are being put along all the roads. A lot of money is being spent when people have no drugs, like panadol, in hospitals. Cameras are put along the road to survey and see what the people are doing.

 

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

                                                                                              

Mr Kamboni: Privacy must be respected.

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Kamboni: We are not totally against the Bill. This was copied from international –

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, even if –

 

Mr Kamboni: ... where many countries were, that is fine. Now the other things that you are including inside –

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

 Hon. Member debating, there are several points of order being raised against you.

 

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

 

Mr Kamboni: May be my time could be stopped.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I just want to inform the House that I had guided that I am not going to allow any points of order...

 

Mr Lubinda: This is procedure, Sir.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: … because we have to look at time. I have gotten what they want to talk about. I will just guide the hon. Member debating to really look at what we are looking at and come on track.

 

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member debating continue, please.

 

Mr Lubinda: But on the right track!

 

Mr Kamboni: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for your guidance.

 

I am still labouring on the issue where people will be levied for storing or giving their personal data. What we are getting from the public is that they do not want anyone to get a license for data. These must be scrapped off. This is why Bills come in this House so that we stretch them. We want to have laws that are accepted and owned by all Zambians. We know of many things that were put in the Bill which are similar in many countries, and that is fine. However, there are certain things that have been chipped in which are more politically motivated. We do not want the issue of licenses.

 

Mr Speaker, we want to learn why they want to regulate data in this country. It is because they do not want the Parallel Vote Tabulation (PVT) done by an individual. This is why they are regulating data so that those who want to conduct voter tabulation during elections are prevented from doing so. Therefore, why should I buy a computer and pay for internet when everything I want to do is controlled? I must get permission from people who are so scared of everything. That is not the way things are done.

 

  Mr Speaker, while we accept the need to have control of some kind, let it be the control that is born of the people, and not to infringe the freedom of the people. In our main Constitution, people have the right to freedom of assembly, freedom of keeping information, but what are we seeing now? Due to the forth coming elections, most of these Bills that are being brought to the House are done hurriedly, to infringe our freedom.

 

  Mr Speaker, the budget has a deficit because they have run down the economy, and they do not have the money. They now want to charge every individual who is over taxed. We are over taxed in this country. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government said that we would have more money in our pockets, but we do not have it. They are over taxing it every day due to their mistakes. They got illegal loans which never passed through Parliament, and now they want us to pay through the nose. That is too much. The licenses in this Bill should be scrapped off ...

 

Interruptions

 

 The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members, I am listening and giving guidance to the House. I am listening to the hon. Member who is debating and I have guided him. Can the hon. Member stick to the report and not debate issues which are not in the report?

 

May the hon. Member continue, please.

 

  Mr Kamboni: Mr Speaker, my submission now is that –

 

 The Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

 The Minister of Transport and Communication (Mr Kafwaya): Mr Speaker, I would like to appreciate your Committee, its Chairperson and membership for supporting this Bill. This is because the Bill is aimed at enabling the environment which I indicated that it is the wish of His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, to improve our economic and social environment so that men and women can conduct business in an enabled environment.

 

 Mr Speaker, the Chairperson spoke about the Long Title which I am going to amend. He also talked about the use of international standards ISO/IEC 27001. This being an international standard, may be inappropriate for our localised legislation. Our proposal is that we use local standards which are developed by our own Zambia Bureau of Standards (ZABS). If we use an international standard, it might imply that every time the international standard changes, it would trigger amendment of the law.

 

 Mr Speaker, let me also thank my other colleagues, Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, the hon. Member for Chavuma, the hon. Member for Kalomo and the Minister of Home Affairs, for giving support to this Bill. However, I have taken note that the hon. Member for Chavuma did not support the Bill. I would like to advise my colleagues that to fail to support progress, means supporting stagnation and backwardness. It is important that we are not left behind as a nation. We need to support progress because this Bill is introducing e-signatures.

 

  Mr Speaker, how many of our people in the country want their land titles to be processed rapidly? There are many of us who want that to happen. When we facilitate for e-signatures, we are saying that we want that land title to be endorsed electronically. As a result, the process will become faster, people will save money, and businesses will become better.

 

  Mr Speaker, my colleague from Kalomo was debating a different Bill. He was debating the Personal Data Protection Bill. The Bill on the Floor is the Electronic, Communication and Transactions Bill. This is also a problem of being mechanical because these Bills have come at the same time hence he was thinking it is the correct Bill, when in fact not. The Personal Data Protection Bill is yet to come for debate, and the hon. Member will have a chance to debate. I am wondering what the hon. Member is going to talk about because he has already said what he had prepared for a very different Bill.

 

  Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I want to state that it is good that even though two hon. Members have expressed reservations, your Committee supported the Bill which is very progressive.

 

  I thank you, Sir.

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Wednesday, 3^rd March, 2021.

 

DATA PROTECTION BILL, 2020

 

Mr Kafwaya: Mr Speaker, once again, I would like to thank your Committee for supporting a Bill which is meant for the people. This Bill is for the people. Generally, Governments wish to have the ability to check on certain individuals. However, this Bill is going to protect people’s data and it is a win for the people. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government has promised to make sure that it introduces policies and legal instruments that protect the people. Providing for privacy is a fundamental human right. Therefore, all the people who have supported this Bill are in order because they are enhancing that provision of this fundamental human right. It will require legal processing and registration and if anybody has to do anything to personal data, he/she would have to be known. Therefore, this Bill speaks to this fundamental right, and I am happy that it has received support from the House.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Wednesday, 3^rd March, 2021.

 

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MOTION

 

MOTION OF THANKS

 

(Debate resumed)

 

The Minister of Transport and Communication (Mr Kafwaya): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the President was compelled by the constitutional provision to come and tell us the progress that this country has made in terms of morality, ethics, patriotism, national unity, democracy, constitutionalism, human dignity, equality, social justice and non-discrimination of citizens. 

 

Sir, the President in paragraph 11 of the speech said that:

 

“These values and principles provide the moral compass for our country. They guide every decision we make; every policy we formulate; and every law we enact.”

 

Mr Speaker, from my end, I would like to say that every decision that any Government makes or takes, determines the progress that that country makes in terms of the above. The President made a few comments and outlined a few problems that this country is facing. At page 7, he talked about Gender Based Violence (GBV), rape and defilement. At page 11, he talked about child marriages and he spoke about alcohol abuse on page 13. He also spoke about mental disease and depression as well as suicide. The President also spoke about non-protection of the image of the country and the breakdown of the rule of law. I will comment on these things. However, there are things that are manmade and things that are natural that determine how people behave, and I will outline a few things why I think the Patriotic Front (PF) is responsible for the degradation of the values, morals and ethics of this country.

 

Sir, charity begins at home. As leaders of this country – I want you to know that in the midst of poverty that has systematically induced by the PF, by borrowing indiscriminately, and in reference to what Hon. Dr Musokotwane spoke about yesterday, from every K1 that is spent on the Budget, 90 per cent of it goes to debt service as well recurrent expenditure, in terms of paying civil servants, leaving only 10 per cent. That is the definition of induced poverty. When you induce poverty, what creep in are the vices that the President spoke about.

 

Mr Speaker, in terms of child marriages, the PF can be squarely responsible for this because where do parents get any income when there is no disposable income in the country? How in the world can you have a country with leaders thriving on political gimmicks of dishing out money everywhere they go in the midst of poverty? We have seen hon. Members of Parliament, and one of them is the mover of this Motion and the hon. Member of Parliament for Chilanga, distributing cash in the midst of poverty.

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Nkombo: We have seen hon. Members of Parliament distributing cash and I want to give –

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I would like to give Mr Lubinda some kudos and accolades.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, resume your seat.

 

Mr Nkombo: Sir, time is going.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: I think I guided that we are going to reduce on points of order because we have a lot of work to do. Nonetheless, the hon. Member debating should prove that allegation to this House.

 

Mrs Phiri: Yes.

 

Mr Nkombo: I will do that immediately I finish. There was a video of the hon. Member of Parliament from the PF ...

 

Mrs Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Nkombo: ... distributing cash, when they are poor themselves.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members, resume your seats both of you.

 

Mr Ngulube: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Nkombo in order to debate without a mask?

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, I have not allowed you to raise a point of order.

 

Mr Ngulube: He should wear his mask. He is putting us at risk.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, can you resume your seat.

 

There is an allegation that the hon. Member was distributing money and I guided that let us speak the truth. I have requested the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central to submit the evidence so that it qualifies his debate. As the person presiding over the business of the House, I have guided and we are going to move in that manner. I will not allow any points of order on this issue because I have guided. The hon. Member will lay whatever evidence he has on the Table and will move forward without referring to that matter, and that will be enough.

 

Please, continue hon. Member.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the truth has no disguise and it also hurts. In the midst of poverty, the PF has been known to distribute money. When some hon. Members came here, they hardly ever had sandals.

 

Where do they get the money in bundles that they distribute to citizens? I take my hat off for Hon. Given Lubinda because he counseled his colleagues. I have that evidence and he said that it is not appropriate for any leader to use poverty in order to thrive. It is true that the PF has been distributing money. Where are they finding this money from?

 

Sir, it is true that some leaders in the PF have been moving around naked. I also have that evidence and the President who was busy telling us about morals and the hon. Minister of National Guidance and Religious Affairs are quite. It is called hypocrisy. Some hon. Ministers have been quoted, using tribal and hurt speech, and I can adduce evidence. Who is fooling who here? The truth hurts. Ladies and gentlemen, it is time to do some introspection and to walk the talk.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Siwanzi (Nakonde): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving the voice of Nakonde an opportunity to debate His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia’s speech on the application of national values and principles. In debating this speech, let me quote what His Excellency the President said in paragraph 10. He said that:

 

“Mr Speaker,

 

1. morality and ethics;
2. patriotism and national unity;
3. democracy and constitutionalism;
4. human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non-discrimination;
5. good governance;
6. integrity; and
7. sustainable development.”

 

Sir, due to the limited time for me to debate this wonderful speech delivered to the House by the Head of State, who will be re-elected on 12^th August this year, I will stick to one value and principle, and this is democracy and constitutionalism.

 

Mr Speaker, indeed, charity begins at home. When the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, was defeated in this august House, we saw that hon. Members of Parliament who have been elected by the people to represent them are actually in the House to represent their own interests. Where is the moral fibre of these hon. Members of Parliament? When they are in their constituencies, they speak about the welfare of the disabled, youths and women. However, the Bill that was meant to attend to issues that impact negatively on the youths, women and the disabled was defeated by these hon. Members of Parliament. I repeat, where is the moral fibre of these people? Surely, after defeating such a progressive Bill, they even had the courage to go and dance sinjonjo after taking autumn harvest and eating food from Hungry Lion, and the citizens of this country were watching.

 

Mr Speaker, 2021 is the year of reckoning and the citizens of this country have an opportunity to teach these politicians, who are self-centred and do not even think about the people they represent, a lesson.

 

Sir, in debating the Motion, I want to liken the situation of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019, which was defeated because of some people who only look at their interests as individuals, to the situation that happened in the United Kingdom (UK) when the opposition attempted to defeat the will of the people to pass a law that would see the UK isolate itself from the rest of Europe in terms of its economic activities. The UK held elections and it was ensured that they got the majority of hon. Members of Parliament so that they could pass the will of the people and this is what I am seeing this year in Zambia.

 

Sir, I am urging the electorates to rise to the occasion and to give the Patriotic Front (PF) a two-third majority that is required so that we can pass progressive Bills that are being defeated by people who are unpatriotic and only interested in their own agenda. The PF will be given a two-third majority in Parliament so that we can pass progressive Bills such as a Bill that would support the delimitation of constituencies.

 

Mr Speaker, sometimes I wonder because I interact with these hon. Colleagues and most of them come from rural constituencies and they talk about the hardships they go through. In the past, they used to talk so much about the delimitation of constituencies, so that we can take services nearer to where the people live. To my surprise, when this Bill which was to see the delimitation of constituencies was brought to Parliament, without shame, the same people who were complaining about the sizes –

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

The hon. Member’s time expired.

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Speaker, the President in Paragraph 69 of the speech said that:

 

“Mr Speaker, patriotic citizens rightly declare and pay tax. In this regard, I wish to express my appreciation to all taxpayers who have continued to honour their tax obligations. Your tax builds the nation. Your tax educates the children of this country. Your tax supports the vulnerable in our society.”

 

Sir, for us who come from the Western Province, where there are no roads, schools and everything has totally broken down, how are our taxes working for us? This Government has even failed to register children in the Western Province so they can get National Registration Cards (NRCs). We were promised here that some people will go back there and do the work. When we came back, however, we were told that there is no money and then we have integrity as a national value. How does that work?

 

You contract loans and then you fail to pay your obligations, but you come here to talk about integrity. It does not work that way. You say that national unity is a national value, but you appoint Permanent Secretaries (PSs) from one place in the same country. Then you come here to talk about values. What sort of arrangement is that? If we are from the same country, we have to behave in the same manner. You cannot go around giving money when there are no medicines in hospitals and clinics. You cannot do that and there are no values there.

 

Mr Speaker, even this issue about Honeybee Pharmacy, how do you give a couple of guys some money to come and endanger the lives of children in the country and then come and talk about values?

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Sir.

 

I know you have already guided, but this is a procedural point of order.

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

I think I need to still guide the House. During this debate, it is important that we take notes if we want to come and respond. I am also in the same House and I am listening. If I see that the hon. Member debating is off the rail, I will definitely guide. So, take notes so that when you stand to speak, you can correct something which was, maybe submitted by your hon. Colleague in a wrong way. We need to make progress.

 

Hon. Member for Nkeyema, you may continue.

 

Mr Mbangweta: Mr Speaker, we talk about looking after our natural resources, but we are letting them go away for a song. Then we want to come and talk about values. Values are not spoken. Values are practiced. What you practice is what makes values. That is why we see that corruption in this country will not finish. This is because what our hon. Colleagues talk about is not what they do.

 

Sir, in the Western Province, our hon. Colleagues cannot say that they are going to get a vote there. We will make sure that they do not get a vote because their behaviour over national funds has really upset us. They should even feel ashamed of themselves that in one way they are closing offices during the day and at night they are doing other things and they go out to give money. That money is not sustainable. You have failed to pay your commitment which you have signed, but you want to talk to the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Can the IMF give you money with that sort of behaviour of throwing money in the streets?

 

Mr Speaker, those are not values we should be talking about. When values are practiced, they take root. What is now happening is that we are practicing things which we should not even be talking about. There are no values of integrity. There is no integrity in the way we are doing things. Our behaviour is what is going to be the deciding factor and our hon. Colleagues’ behaviour over the national resources in the Western Province has been the deciding factor because to us that was an insult.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Ema chairman aya!

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you and His Excellency the President for the speech he gave to this House. The speech was very categorical.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Sir, His Excellency the President came to the House to specifically talk about national values, principles of governance, and how to unite the country together. As Republican President, he was addressing state organs, state officers, public officers, and all persons wherever they might be. The main point was that in applying and in the interpretation of the Constitution, the principles should be followed. In the enactment, the application, and the interpretation of any law, these principles should be followed. He also said that in making and the interpretation of public policy decisions, these policies should be followed.

 

Sir, the President talked about humility and the protection of women. I wonder who will be able to stand and disagree with what His Excellency the President talked about. Even in the villages, when people talk about principle or even when they do to talk to each other, on principles, they will agree. I know that the United Party for National Development (UPND) is all out to tarnish anything, even the good that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government does, but the people will not be happy.

 

Sir, on the Copperbelt, people who invested in raising President Edgar Chagwa Lungu, told him to be humble and he is a humble man. They taught him how to unite the country.

 

Sir, the people of Chawama still appreciate him because even after he had completed his studies at the University of Zambia (UNZA), and became a Lawyer, he stayed with the people of Chawama. Some of our friends, such as Hon. Nkombo and my brother, Hakainde Hichilema (HH), know what chongololo means. It is the people who twist the tongue and they do not want to associate so much with others. Others who have gone through UNZA, and not just the two I have mentioned, would be very familiar with that term. They would not want to associate with people in the compounds per se. However, President Lungu, has demonstrated that. This is why in August, 2021 –

 

Sir, Sope, Yowa, Liatamani, Lungu, in April, 2016, His Excellency the President said: “Let us go and look at the Sesheke Road.” He opened up that road because he wanted to distribute resources equitably. Later on, we went to look at the Kalabo Road. The people of the Western Province appreciate the road network within the town centre in Mongu. However, they have other concerns about many other issues, just like I am concerned about the road going to the Western Province. In fact, I want to tell Hon. Mwale that I am very concerned about the road going to Mpika just as I am concerned about the road going to the Western Province. So, please you ensure that you look at it. His Excellency the President wants all the roads to be worked on including all other areas.

 

Mr Speaker, the President is concerned about the rural people. This is why when I was growing up – I would like to thank the Lamba chiefs for bringing up such a son. I also want to thank all Soli chiefs, here in Lusaka, for bringing up such a son who knows how to unite the Easterners and all the chiefs so that he speaks about the unification of our country.

 

Sir, when I am running with him, I enjoy listening to him singing. In fact, he teaches me some Tonga words. I hear him speak fluent Lamba and I say; “this is a Zambia President.” When I look at him as having worked with the late UPND Leader, Anderson Mazoka, it is because he was a great Tonga man who knew how to unite Zambia. No wonder, His Excellency the President and the Vice-President worked with him. However, when the vision was lost in the UPND, they could not stay. So, they left. Otherwise, they love Tongas and they want to unite them. In fact, I want to thank His Excellency the President for appointing the Vice-President from the Western Province. He has a lot of respect for women.

 

Sir, I have one complaint on the UPND. The party only voted for 28.6 per cent of women. We do not want this. We want 50/50. So, I am making a public protest to the PF Vice-President, Her Honour the Vice-President that I want to see 50 per cent of the women to be voted for. In addition, we do not want to see people stand up and fight hard working women like Prof. Luo, Hon. Jean Kapata anyhow –

 

Mr Second Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

______

 

The House adjourned at 1656 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 19^th February, 2021.

 

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