Debates- Tuesday, 13th November, 2012

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 13th November, 2012 

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

___________ 

OATH OF ALLEGIANCE

The following Member took and subscribed to the Oath of Allegiance:

Stephen Masumba

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

____________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ELECTRIFICATION OF SICHILI HOSPITAL

259. Mr Sililo (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development when Sichili Mission Hospital in Mulobezi District, which is in close proximity to power lines, would be connected to the national electricity grid.

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Musukwa): Mr Speaker, following the electrification of Mulobezi District, the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) contracted the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) Limited to undertake works on the connection of Sichili Mission Hospital to the national electricity grid. ZESCO mobilised and moved on site on 20th September, 2012, and the works were successfully completed on 31st October, 2012. The cost of the project was in excess of K261 million.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude my answer, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate Hon. Masumba for winning the Mufumbwe by-election.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Musukwa: Mr Speaker, by giving their votes to the Ruling Party in the Mufumbwe by-election, the people of North-Western Province have reposed their confidence in Mr Michael Chilufya Sata’s administration.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, it is true that the hospital has now been connected to the national electricity grid, but one of its components, the mortuary, is not connected. When is that going to be done?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Speaker, the mortuary is too small and requires re-designing, and we are doing that in record time.

I thank you, Sir.

DE-GAZETTING MISAKA FOREST

260. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection whether the ministry had any plans to de-gazette part of the Misaka Forest Area No. 5 to allow for human settlement.

The Deputy Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental protection (Mr Muchima): Mr Speaker, the ministry plans to de-gazette 4, 250 hectares of the 28, 400 hectares of Misaka National Forest No. P. 5 on the Copperbelt Province to allow for human settlement.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, what is the population of people around the forest?

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, if that was part of the substantive question, we would have come with the details. Otherwise, we only concentrated on whether the area can be demarcated for human settlement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, what are the conditions for any land to be de-gazetted?

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, as you are aware, if the forest in this country is not protected, it can be finished by charcoal burners. With the increased population, people tend to move into gazetted forest areas, and the Government will have to find a compromise to take into consideration human settlement. There are areas which have Government schools and other infrastructure and the number of people and their needs outweigh the need to maintain the forest. In that case, the Government will de-gazette the area and demarcate it. However, the Government has decided that there must be a compensatory system in which trees are planted in areas that have been deserted by people to replace the de-gazetted forest area.

I thank you, Sir.

MATERNAL COMPLICATIONS

261. Mr Chisala asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health how many pregnant women died of maternal complications in Zambia between January, 2010, and December, 2011.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, mother and Child Health (Ms Kapata): Mr Speaker, from January to December, 2010, there were 459 maternal deaths in the country. From January to December, 2011, the number was 612. 

Sir, the ministry has embarked on high-impact interventions in order to reduce the maternal mortality, such as:

(a)    increasing access to family planning services to reduce unwanted and unplanned pregnancies;

(b)    increasing the availability of skilled labour at deliveries by training direct-entry midwives; 

(c)    training skilled health workers to manage complications of pregnancies that arise;

(d)    working with community groups to increase awareness of danger signs during the pregnancy; and

(e)    providing anti-retroviral therapy (ART) to pregnant women to reduce deaths from HIV complications.

Mr Speaker, being the Campaign Manager for Mufumbwe Parliamentary Constituency By-election, allow me to also put on record my congratulations to Hon. Masumba for winning.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, it is a well-known fact that the death rate is extremely high in the rural areas compared with the urban areas. What measures does the Government intend to put in place to lower the death rate in remote rural areas of this country?

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, we know very well that there are three bottlenecks that surround mother and child health deaths. One of them is the distances between health centres in the rural areas and the communities. As a result, the Government is constructing 650 fully-fledged clinics to shorten the distances and reduce on maternal deaths. 

Secondly, we are aware that some hospitals do not have trained personnel, and the Government is, like I said in an earlier answer, training direct-entry midwives. Also, in African tradition, when women go into labour, they wait for permission from their husbands before they can go to the hospital. So, we are trying to educate them, through the chiefs, to go to the hospital when in labour.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, early marriages have also been cited as a cause of death in pregnant women. What is the Government doing to engage tradition leaders and other stakeholders in villages to help in sensitisation so that there is a reduction in early marriages in our country?

The Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Dr Katema): Mr Speaker, this is, indeed, a very serious challenge, and the Government has embarked on an inter-sectoral approach to resolving it. The Government is seriously engaging chiefs, through the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs and the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, to sensitise our people on the dangers of early marriages. In fact, this House has stiffened penalties on defilers in this country. These are some of the measures that this Government has put in place. 

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, firstly, let me congratulate the PF on its alleged good performance in the by-elections.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Members: Alleged.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister …

Interruptions

Ms Siliya: I need your protection, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister concerned about teenage pregnancies at all? I know that some teenagers are being impregnated by sugar daddies in very senior positions in this country. If at all he is concerned, what is he doing to reduce maternal deaths, which are very prevalent among teenagers? He cited some of the cultural problems are faced in communities in addressing these problems.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, some of the direct causes of maternal deaths are bleeding, which constitutes 25 per cent, infections, obstructed labour, hypertension and unsafe abortions due to unsatisfied family planning needs. In response to that the Government is increasing access to family planning services in the communities so that teenagers do not get pregnant when they are not ready. This will reduce maternal deaths due to unsafe abortions. We are also engaging, as I earlier said, traditional and religious leaders so that family planning can be accessed by all those who are in need so that we do not have reasons for our teenagers to resort to unsafe abortions, which constitute quite a chunk of the causes of deaths.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, those in need of family planning include school-going girls. Is the hon. Minister intending to introduce family planning services in schools?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, in schools, we encourage abstinence. However, just as we advocate the use of condoms in the prevention of HIV infection for those who cannot abstain or remain faithful to their partners, we have taken a similar path with contraception. Anybody who requires family planning services can access them in the health institutions where they are dispensed.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I think that it is just in order to congratulate Hon. Steven ‘Ipupa’ Masumba …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … on a well-deserved win …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … in Mufumbwe.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, in the hon. Minister’s response, …

Mr Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central in order to call the new hon. Member of Parliament, Mr Steven Masumba as ‘Steven ‘‘Ipupa’’ Masumba’ when Ipupa is not one of his names? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: I must confess that, naturally, I am not well-acquainted with all the names of hon. Members of Parliament.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: However, assuming that is not one of his names, I would invite the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central to withdraw it.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Member: With great pleasure, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, with great pleasure. Hon. Steven Masumba is my tribal cousin. 

In his response, the hon. Minister indicated that his ministry was adopting a multi-sectoral approach to resolving these solutions. How are solutions resolved?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I mentioned that we have adopted an inter-ministerial or inter-sectoral approach. I meant that all the ministries should, and are taking part in finding solutions to this problem. That means Government departments, non-governmental organisations (NGOs), co-operating partners and traditional and religious leaders are taking part in this fight.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, information to the effect that 650 health posts will be constructed was circulated to all of us in this House. Knowing that we already have a serious shortage of midwives, what plans does the hon. Minister have to meet the needs of an additional number of health posts that will require midwives? 

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, 650 extra health posts will be constructed. The Ministry of Health, which is in charge of placement and training, has put in very serious efforts to train extra midwives, nurses, clinical officers and doctors. The hon. Minister had mentioned to the House that we now have direct-entry midwives training in colleges. Previously, a nurse had to train for three years before he/she could go and train as a midwife. Now, there is direct entry, whereby a school leaver goes directly to train as a midwife. These are going to assist in manning health posts and reduce the rate of maternal deaths in our country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, as a follow-up to what Hon. Dr Chituwo, Member of Parliament for Mumbwa, and Vice-President (Administration) of the Movement for Multiparty Democracy (MMD), asked, …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga: … are there any special measures that the Government has put in place to target traditional birth attendants so that the 25 per cent bleeding rate could be addressed? What is the response from the hon. Minister as far as training of traditional birth attendants and other related activities are concerned?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, we are continuing with the training of traditional birth attendants. In fact, we are giving them further skills in identifying and handling complicated cases so that they can refer mothers to health centres in ample time. What happens is that our mothers are brought to the health centres quite late. That is what has contributed to the high rate of maternal deaths. Yes, traditional birth attendants have a role in identifying danger signs so that they can refer cases to qualified personnel.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, lowering the rate of maternal deaths is the fifth millennium development goal (MDG). With 2012 coming to a close and a maternal death rate of 591 to 100,000, do you think that Zambia will attain this important MDG?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, this data is coming from what we call demographic surveys. We will soon carry out a health survey, which will show us, exactly, where we are placed. If we focus on working together, we can attain all the MDGs. I mentioned the causes of maternal death, which include haemorrhage, infection, obstructed labour, hypertension in pregnancy and unsafe abortions, and we have put interventions in place targeting each of them. We can lower the rate of maternal deaths.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, so far, how many students have graduated from the direct-entry midwifery training schools?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, we have just started recruiting. However, so far, we have had two intakes. Two groups of people have been picked to start the training. No one has graduated yet.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I am a villager and a village headman, at the same time.

Hon. Opposition Member: I am one too.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, as a villager, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Ask your question, please.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I have seen some traditional birth attendants moving from one village to the other, assisting women to give birth. They always walk. Does the hon. Minister have any plans to give incentives, such as bicycles, to these women, who are doing a commendable job?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, the headman should be aware that traditional birth attendants and other community providers of other health services are given some incentives. Perhaps, he should engage the District Health Management Team (DHMT) to  see how best he can assist. We have always been assisting the traditional birth attendants, safe motherhood action groups and community health workers.

I thank you, Sir.

_________
                                                                      
COMMITTEE OF SUPLLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 

Chair]

(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K890,051,169,264); 
VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – K336,996,875,454); and 
VOTE 16 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – K41,424,168,325).

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, although many people have congratulated Bo Masumba, I also congratulate him. However, let me also congratulate the MMD which has, once again, demonstrated a democratic spirit by conceding defeat.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, if this trend will continue, it will be for the good of our nation. The time shall …

The Chairperson: Order!

I think you are going too far.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

I want us to proceed. I have no problem with your congratulatory messages. However, we have to move on.

Mr Mutelo: Thank you, Bo Chair.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Please use the official language. There is nothing like ‘Bo’ here.

You can continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, thank you. I know that those who have debated spoke much about the Public Order Act, which is good when you are in power, but becomes bad when you are out of power. 

Mr Chairperson, the situation in our prisons has not been good for a long time. Having seen the money allocated for this section, I think that it leaves much to be desired. As much as we consider the well-being of those who are outside the prisons, we should do the same about those in prison because they are as human as we are. It is high time we also looked into the well-being of inmates, both female and male. 

Sir, providing services that are meant to reform people would be very good. We call them ‘prisons’. However, the right word, for me, is ‘reformatory’. Our prisons have turned out not to be reformatories, but training institutions for more evil vices because of the conditions there. We are not giving the inmates necessities like food and blankets. Although they found themselves in such circumstances, inmates are as human as we are. Therefore, let us be considerate towards them.

Mr Chairperson, Lukulu West has no police office, and we do not even have routine patrols by the police. We only see police officers when there is an election, which has led to lawlessness in the area. People in Nyala Ward are lawless as if the police does not exist. If you cannot build, at least, one police post, let there be one police patrol in a year. That would make the presence of the police felt. Alternatively, we should put in place a deliberate policy to sensitise our people in remote areas. If that is not done, …

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Mutelo: … those places will be breeding areas for criminals like the Mailoni brothers, who many hon. Members of Parliament have complained about. We, therefore, pray for routine patrols.

Sir, regarding the allocations to the Western Province, sometimes, the hands of police officers are tied by the resource constraints, despite the fact that they want o work. The so-called resource envelope, sometimes, makes it difficult for the police to do their job even during the time when there are no floods and Lukulu is accessible. With the onset of the rains, Lukulu West will be cut off for six months, and the caravinas will be on rampage. The lives of the people of Lukulu West, Zambezi West, Liuwa and Shang’ombo will be at risk.

Mr Chairperson, it is also our prayer that we be given boats for police officers in flood-prone areas so that they can continue with their patrols even during the rainy season. The presence of a police officer in uniform makes a big difference in rural areas. As we wait for a police post to be built, if a plan to do this exists, we urge the hon. Minister to ensure that there are patrols in places like Lukulu West, where we depend on the so-called vigilantes who ask for money from victims of caravinas. Sometimes, lives are lost needlessly.

Sir, it is, therefore, our prayer that the Government factors in the needs of rural areas when planning for the Ministry of Home Affairs. As much as the hon. Minister talked about efforts to provide security at Watopa and Dongwe, recently, the caravina cases are still prevalent there. People in the area are killed even more than the animals because there is no police presence in the rural areas.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, the K100 million budgeted for Washishi Border Post last year excited us. However, this is 13th November, 2012, and the money has still not been released. The K100 million is just in the Yellow Book. I have seen another K100 million in this Yellow Book. If we will just be putting figures without releasing the money, we will be approving Budgets upon Budgets without implementation. We should release the money that we put in the Budget so that we implement. The K100 million is there in the 2012 Budget, and there is another K100 million in the 2013 Budget. It is like we will be only approving money which is not going to be spent.

Sir, we thank you for yet another K100 million. However, we wish to urge you to release it for the works at Washishi Border Post to commence. It is only Washishi and, maybe, one other border post, which have been given K100 million. The rest have been given more. We do not know what wrong that border post has done. 

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I pray that our prisons will become reformatories and that we shall have police officers in remote places like Zambezi West and Lukulu West. Police officers being seen, at least, once in a while will be enough. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: However, this is not happening currently. As we are praying and pleading for the police posts to be built in rural areas, I reluctantly support this allocation.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few words on the Vote for the Ministry of Home Affairs. 

Sir, I shudder when I see the PF Government relegate the Ministry of Home Affairs to a position where it should not be. According to the order of priority, the Ministry of Home Affairs is at the tail end of the five top ministries. Under normal circumstances, I believe, it should be second to the Ministry of Defence. When it is put at the end, I feel that we are not very much aware of what we are doing and need to change our approach. The ministry has many big departments. With that said, may I say one or two words on this Vote.

Sir, on the Zambia Police Force, I want to tell the hon. Minister I do not remember the last time I went through on the emergency line. I do not know whether is still working or has been de-commissioned. You can call in distress without getting a response. In other countries, if the person who is in charge of that line does not respond within a given period of time, he is charged, but that is not happening in our country. I think that it is high time the ministry realised that the Police Emergency Line does not work.

Mr Chairperson, a lot has been said about the Public Order Act and how it has been abused by the PF Government, through the police. There is a need for the Ministry of Home Affairs to reform that archaic law, instead of supporting it.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to ask the Ministry of Home Affairs to stop abusing the Zambia Police Force. The PF Government is repeating the same things its members used to condemn when the MMD was in power. The PF condemned the MMD when the police were arresting people in Mongu and moving them to Kaoma, Mumbwa, Lusaka and Kabwe. However, it is now arresting Mongu residents and taking them to Kaoma. What has changed? Now that the PF is in the driving seat, it is using the police to arrest people who tear newspapers and move them from Mongu to Kaoma.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: It is important for people to live by their word and what they believe in. I think that PF leaders did not believe in what they were saying during the campaigns. 

Mr Chairperson, the moving of people from Mongu to Kaoma was condemned by the PF because it knew the effects of moving someone from Mongu to detain them in Kaoma. There are no relatives and supplies are difficult to get. People have to move from Mongu to Kaoma to feed the detainees.

Sir, I think that the PF Government needs to revert to its former beliefs. Its members are the ones who were parading the Linyungandambo when they were campaigning. They were good friends and used to condemn the MMD. What has changed?

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir!

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. I am shocked to see the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in the House. I was following the hon. Minister of Defence outside the gate and there was a car with a boat that was blocking the road right in front of Parliament Buildings. I had to stop for a long time waiting … 

Interruptions

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to bring lawlessness to this House? That vehicle should have parked by the side of the road.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: We have all come to this House and are entitled to the right of entry. We have all been escorted before, but what is happening today has shocked me. Is the hon. Home Affairs Minister in order? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: I am very serious. I almost had an accident. It is not a laughing matter.  

Hon. Government Member: Dorika!

Ms Kalima: That car was parked right in front of the security personnel. The police officers were just watching what was happening 

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame.

Ms Kalima: We are not going to turn this Parliament into a place where lawlessness is encouraged.

I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who is sitting here listening to your point of order, has heard what you are saying. 

You may continue, please, Hon. Mufalali.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I was just re-emphasising the fact that, when the PF leaders were campaigning, last year, they were friends with those who they are now arresting. What has changed? They were darlings of those people. They even pledged to support the Barotseland Agreement but, today, they have changed their mind. They are misusing the police … 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I have been following the debate of my colleague, trying to see where he was going to end. Is he in order to continue debating matters that are before the courts of law? 

The Chairperson: The hon. Member who is debating should take that point of order into account. However, let me advise that one of the rules here is against repetition. So, once you make your point, you should proceed. 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, allow me to quote the words of Marion J. Levy Jr. In Nine Laws for Disillusionment of the True Liberal 1970:

“Always pray that your opposition be wicked. In wickedness there is a strong strain towards rationality. If good intentions are combined with stupidity, it is impossible to out-think them.”

Mr Chairperson, that is very important. Good intentions must be carried on the way they are. Allow me to focus on the Forensics and Investigations departments under the police. I am of the view that the Investigations Department has been neglected for too long. I am not sure how many vehicles they have. The last time I was trying to understand how the department operated, I realised that it had very few vehicles. 

Sir, I think that it is high time the Ministry of Home Affairs empowered the investigations wing. I am also of the idea that the Forensics Department should be given its own building. The Zambia Police Headquarters is old and cannot accommodate some of the modern equipment and more offices. It is important that we give the Forensics Department a new structure for the purpose of ensuring running the Police Force smoothly.

Mr Chairperson, I also feel that the K25 billion that has been given to the Western Province is not enough. The Zambia Police Force cannot operate in the Western Province effectively because of the state in which the province is. The roads are so bad that the average time for a Toyota Land Cruiser to be in working condition in the Western Province is three years. Therefore, is not fair for us to be giving the police in the Western Province less or equal resources to what other provinces get because it will be very difficult for them to operate because of the very difficult conditions.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to know that his ministry has nothing to boast about in Senanga because it does not even have a building of its own there. The building it occupies is belongs to an individual. I am told that the police have even been threatened with eviction on several occasions. Further, the police in the Western Province have no houses. They have done nothing on the land which they were given.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, may I say that the Zambia Police Force needs to change the way it operates if it intends to get our support. I am not going to support a police force that engages in fights with hon. Members of Parliament who are simply standing at a police station. The picture that we saw in The Post of police officers physically harassing an hon. Member of Parliament, who is also the spokesperson for the United National Development Party (United Party for National Development) …

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: … is not going to be tolerated. It is high time we respected our lawmakers. The hon. Member was merely standing next to a pillar in the parking lot at a police station when the police descended on him for no apparent reason. That is not right. They need to realise that lawmakers are part of the governance system and should be respected as they carry out their duties.

Mr Chairperson, the way the police have operated in enforcing the law is not right. We are not going to stand by and watch them manhandling cadres from Opposition parties while leaving those supporting the Government to go scot-free and do as they please. I think that is not right. If we have to run a Government or the Ministry of Home Affairs, we need to be very fair in the way we handle matters. They need not to start dividing the country by supporting the Ruling Party and suppressing the Opposition. That is not going to happen. If the police go that route, we will be very reluctant to pass its budget. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs should realise that his party is now in power and apply the law equally to everyone. What we are seeing in this country is not supposed to be happening. The ministry and the police are taking sides. That is not healthy for the unity of this country. 

Mr Chairperson, I remember very well that Mr Samuel Mukupa tore the draft copy of the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) Report, but was not arrested. However, when some residents in Mongu tore a similar document, they were arrested. What kind of a police is applying the law in such a manner? It is not right. We need to see a fair application of the law. We are all citizens of this country, and we must be protected. 

Mr Chairperson, the PF seems to behave like a witchdoctor who said that he was going to remove a crocodile from the river. When he went into the river, he thought it was going to be easy for him to do so. However, he was bitten by the crocodile and screamed that the crocodile was almost taking him away. We are seeing such things in the PF Government.  The PF wanted people to believe that it was possible to do everything at once, yet its members knew that it was not possible to do some of the things that they were promising the people. It is high time you realised that the reality on the ground is different from what you were trying to tell the people. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, I would like to welcome my nephew, Hon. Steven Masumba, back to the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: … and the province. As you go to take up your office, realise that you are not going to represent the PF, but the people of the North-Western Province, who expect you to behave in that way. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to give support to the two headings in the Ministry of Home Affairs, with particular emphasis on the police. The Ministry of Home Affairs and the police are very important. We, therefore, expect them to maintain law and order in the country. It is the Police Force which we expect Zambians to support. The support to the Police Force should not only be from Zambians, but also from the Treasury. 

Mr Chairperson, currently, the police face many difficulties in terms of accommodation and transport, with very few police stations having adequate transport. For example, Kasempa, which is my constituency, is the biggest in the country, with 21,000km2, yet there is only one police station which does not even have transport. When there is a call for the police, there is no quick response in many parts of the country, and police officers are usually blamed, yet the fault is not theirs. It is our fault because we have not provided transport and accommodation to them. For most of the police stations in rural areas, police officers are squatting in villages. Therefore, I hope that the PF Government will continue with the programme of constructing houses for the police, which was started by the MMD. I also hope that the programme will be fast-tracked. 

Mr Chairperson, the way the police carry out their duties is important because it goes out to attract foreign direct investment (FDI) and even tourists. I do appreciate that we currently have a professional police force in this country. However, it has not been allowed to implement what its officers have been learning at school because of interference from the Government. It is clear that the Government interferes in the operations of the police. For example, there was a fracas at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross during the funeral service for the late Former First Lady, may her soul rest in peace. When the PF cadres started harassing people there, I went to the officer in charge of the police officers and confronted asked him why he had allowed that situation in his presence. It was only then that we saw the police reacting and chasing the PF cadres, who started throwing stones at the police, but none of them was arrested. What is happening should not be allowed because it is eroding confidence in our police force. 

Mr Chairperson, ...

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order. Are the hon. Ministers on your right in order to be smiling when the hon. Member on the Floor is putting across a very serious matter bordering on the security of people as well as the protection of the individuals in this country? My colleague who is on the Floor is seriously lamenting and calling on the police to apply the law fairly and protect all Zambians equally? 

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Sometimes, as a Presiding Officer, I wonder where certain points of order come from and tend to think that, maybe, we could have debated the particular issue for too long. I do not see anything wrong with somebody smiling whilst listening to a debate. Therefore, I want to take it that whoever is smiling is seriously considering what is being debated on the Floor of the House. Sometimes, it is very difficult for the Chair to make a ruling on such matters. 

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, I was talking about the confidence of people being eroded because of instructions from the Executive. Hon. Minister, this must stop. If what I heard on the radio is correct, I would like to congratulate you for reversing the deportation order on Father Banyangandora.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, that should have been done immediately people started talking about it and not to wait because it looks like it is an afterthought. Whatever you do, you must first give a thought to any action that you are taking. Your being on that side of the House does not mean that you should be vindictive. Do not follow wrong advice. 

Mr Chairperson, let me refer to another incident. When one of the hon. Members of Parliament who served in the PF Government resigned, immigration officers started investigating his citizenship status after allegations that he was a foreigner.

Hon. Opposition Member: Ah, this Government!

Mr Pande: That was unfair and should not continue.

Mr Chairperson, what we should bear in mind is that, at one point, the PF members were in the Opposition, but they are now in the Government. What they should realise is that …

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for granting me this point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs in order to dress in the manner that he is dressed?

I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Chairperson: As I sit here, I usually consult, and the result of my consultation is that he is in order. 

Hon. Pande, please, continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members, we must upgrade and mature our democracy. The tenets of democracy do not only lay in elections, but also through governance issues and the way we behave. The way the police are being instructed, these days, is eroding democracy as well. If the PF saw something wrong with what the MMD was doing, it has no reason to continue doing what it noticed as being wrong. The people of Zambia were hopeful that the PF would change some of the things that were noticed as being wrong. Unfortunately, theirs was hopeless hope because nothing has changed, and the PF is headed in the same direction.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, the Public Order Act is being totally misused. We should not hear any member of the Executive praising and finding pride in the current Public Order Act. What are we trying to do? This is the reason that we are seeing party cadres, particularly those from the PF, behave like militiamen.

Hon. Opposition Member: Oh, oh!

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, this country belongs to every Zambian, not only PF members. We expect the police to be impartial. We know that it is because of instructions from some members of the Executive that we are seeing this happen, but it must come to an end.

Hon. Opposition Member: Tell them, my brother.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, the brutality by the police, especially when they arrest members of the Opposition political parties, should come to an end. The police need sympathy and support from every citizen. If they operate impartially, it will be easy for them to perform their duties even while investigating issues. However, currently, if an issue involves members of the Opposition, they are brutalised. There is the evidence of what we saw recently in Mufumbwe. Those who were arrested were badly brutalised. The wounds that were inflicted on them by the police are totally unbelievable. Let us bring this to a stop because it will not help us. Let us also move away from this kind of politics and let Zambia’s democracy mature. 

Sir, let us move to the kind of politics in which we are not vindictive or harassing people who are in the Opposition for criticising the Government. This has to come to an end because what we should bear in mind is that the PF Government will not be in power forever and, at the pace with which it is doing things, it is likely to be a one-term Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief in my debate because I just want to talk about one department which is marginalised in the Ministry of Home Affairs, and that is the Immigration Department.

Mr Chairperson, I heard the earlier debaters talk about the police force, and I will not dwell much on that. This Government is on record having said that it would create about 200,000 jobs per year. Let me bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that, if the Government wants to create more jobs for the youths, there is a need to empower the Immigration Department.

Mr Chairperson, the Immigration Department is a very professional body which controls the entry, stay and exit of foreigners. In this country, we have many foreigners who are working at the expense of indigenous Zambians. The only way we will create employment in this country is by empowering the Immigration Department, which has the mandate of checking on the foreigners who are to be allowed to work in Zambia and which jobs are not supposed to be taken up by them. For instance, I tend to wonder if there are no Zambians who can operate graders and bull-dozers because what we have seen, especially in the road sector, is that foreigners are working as grader operators when we have many Zambians who can do that job.

Mr Chairperson, this is happening because we have not empowered the Immigration Department to check which foreigners are not supposed to be working in this country. If the department was well-funded, I assure you that we would create many job opportunities for the youths. Why should we allow foreigners to trade when there are many Zambians who can occupy those shops? There is a need to fund this department so that it will be able to carry out inspections because, without that in place, it will be very difficult for the Ministry of Home Affairs to discharge its mandate.

Mr Chairperson, some foreigners who are arrested over-stay in prisons. When a foreigner over-stays in the country by a day or two, they are detained pending deportation, instead of simply sending them to their home country straightaway. In most cases, such prohibited immigrants stay in jail for a month because the Department of Immigration is not adequately-funded to provide transport for them. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Instead of sending them back or asking them to report to a particular border with Form 15 for the purpose of exiting, the department detains and starts feeding them, which is an unnecessary cost for the Government to meet. Therefore, let us provide transport, especially thirty-sitter buses, for all regional headquarters. This will alleviate the problems that foreigners who over-stay go through and, consequently, reduce the expense of feeding them. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I do not know whether this Government has changed the law. Hon. Minister, it is like the only thing you know is deportation. 

Laughter 

Mr Sing’ombe: What has happened? We have other means of removing a person from the country. One softer way of doing so is by using a report order. You can instruct a person who has contravened a particular law to go back to their home country on their own. It is as simple as that. Secondly, if things do not change, you can simply use, I do not know whether you still call Form 15, and ask the offender to leave the country. These two are measures that allow people to come back when they have corrected their situations. However, we have a situation where you deported a Catholic priest and, after an outcry, you are telling us that you have revoked the deportation. 

Interruptions

Mr Sing’ombe: This is a bit embarrassing.

Hon. Opposition Member: Not a bit.

Mr Sing’ombe: What you should have done is …

Interruptions

Mr Sing’ombe: I know that the law says that you cannot be questioned, but I think that you should have asked him to go so that, after he reformed, you would not be embarrassed by revoking the deportation order. Now you are embarrassed because everyone cried foul.  

Mr Chairperson, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to consult the Immigration Department. Those men and women in uniform are very professional. They can guide him. I am sure that his predecessor, Hon. Sakeni, had no such embarrassments because he took his time to consult, which helped him a lot. After all, he is from a security wing. 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Sing’ombe: So, …

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I know that my colleague is a former officer at the Immigration Department.

Hon. Government Member: Junior officer!

Mr Kampyongo: However, he should also know that many things have changed. I even told him the other day that we have a new Immigration and Deportation Act of 2010. 

Hon. Opposition Members: What is your point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Is he in order to start insinuating that the hon. Minister operated without following the law? Is he in order to insinuate that the hon. Minister does not consult the Immigration Department? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir. 

The Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Minister will address those issues when winding up debate. 

The hon. Member for Dundumwezi may continue. 

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I was in the House when the Act was being approved. So, I am very much aware of it. 

Interruptions

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to dwell a bit on the issue of transport and want to use Kitwe as an example. 

Sir, it is very difficult for immigration officers to go to Bulangililo or Twatasha to arrest prohibited immigrants without transport. In Kitwe, the prison, Kamfinsa, is about 6km or 7km away from the Immigration Office, which is quite a long distance. What do you expect the officers to do without transport? They can even put a person who is supposed to be deported on Form 15. Without reliable transport, there is no way the office can operate effectively. 

Mr Chairperson, I do not know how the Regional Immigration Officer (RIO) works in the Southern Province. We have the regional or provincial office at the Victoria Falls Border Post in Livingstone and an office in Mazabuka. In Mazabuka, we have many foreigners working at the Zambia Sugar Plc. If those people are not monitored by the Immigration Department, you will never create employment for the youth in Mazabuka.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: We also have many South Africans who own big farms in Mazabuka, and Immigration officers are supposed to go to these farms to see who is working there. Unfortunately, the department has no transport. How do you create employment? 

Sir, in Monze, there is no immigration office, which means that you have to equip the Mazabuka office with transport to cater for Monze as well. Equally, Choma has no transport. When you go round Choma, you see many tobacco farmers who, sometimes, employ foreigners to work on their farms. Surely, we have many qualified people who can run those farms, such as those who graduate from the Monze School of Agriculture and the Natural Resource Development College (NRDC) here, in Lusaka. You cannot tell me that the college does not produce qualified people who can help run farms. These people have taken advantage of you, hon. Minister, because of not providing adequate transport for the two …

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I apologise for disturbing the flow of thought of Hon. Sing’ombe, who is debating very well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, in advising the hon. Minister of Home affairs, Hon. Sing’ombe stated that the law says that the hon. Minister cannot be questioned on the actions he takes while in office. Is he in order not to advise the hon. Minister that it is this House where every ministerial action taken in office is questioned? It is here where we question whatever an hon. Minister does in his/her office whether or not he/she is protected by the law. Is he in order not to advise the hon. Minister that in this House, we question everything accordingly? 

I seek your serious ruling, Sir. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Hon. Professor Lungwangwa has adequately debated his point of order. The hon. Minister is being advised and will either take the advice or leave it. 

The hon. Member for Dundumwezi may continue. 

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, in Choma, we have a similar problem of lack of transport. 

Sir, the officers in Kalomo are accommodated in a very tiny office where only one or two of them can operate at a time. 

Mr Chairperson, in my constituency, Dundumwezi, there are many Congolese who have never been checked on by the Immigration Department due to lack of transport. In short, I am saying that we need some form of transport in the entire Southern Province. We need transport in Livingstone, Mazabuka, Choma and Kalomo. 

Sir, I also suggest that, if these men and women in uniform have to do their work properly, they should be given proper uniforms, instead of the white shirt and navy blue trousers, which are not ideal for operations. The Immigration Department is supposed to be given a proper uniform.

Mr Chairperson, for the eleven years that I worked in the Immigration Department, I was only issued with one pair of uniform for operations.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: This situation is still obtaining.

Interruptions

Mr Sing’ombe: Can you kindly equip these men and women with combats uniform. 

Mr Ntundu: It is now worse!

Mr Sing’ombe: Recently, I was very happy to see that the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) had been given a beautiful new combat uniform, yet officers in the Immigration Department are still using white shirts and navy blue trousers that are easily recognised from a long distance when they are doing their work. 

Sir, the Immigration Department is a bit peculiar. I recall one man asking me why Immigration officers fail to arrest foreigners. I told him that they look for people who they do not know and there is no complainant. However, the police look for known people and there are complainants. So, immigration officers have to use their intelligence to know who a foreigner is, hence, they must be equipped with the necessary tools.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Sir, the Immigration Department also requires communication equipment. Why is this department the only one that has not been equipped with such? Sometimes, officers are attacked and they need to communicate with other stations so that they can be assisted. 

Mr Chairperson, I emphasise that the issue of uniforms for is cardinal the Immigration Department, and that adequate funding is needed if the corruption alleged to be prevalent in the department has to be reduced.

With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: In winding up, hon. Minister, please, do not engage in another marathon debate.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You are supposed to be winding up.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You may now wind up debate.

Mr Kambwili: Nabakusoka, boyi!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr E. C. Lungu): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The temptation was there to rumble on.

Sir, I take it that my colleagues in this august House have supported the allocation to the Ministry of Home Affairs. I can tell from the passion with which they debated the issues.

Mr Chairperson, indeed, the Immigration Department requires more funding, but we are all fighting for our share of the small national cake. I will keep lobbying, from time to time, to see how much we can get from the Treasury because every ministry really craves more funding.

Sir, issues have been raised relating to corruption in the Police Force and elsewhere. All I can say is that this is the problem we are grappling with and measures are in place to fight it.

Mr Chairperson, the Immigration Department and the ACC can only be darlings to the law-abiding while law-breakers will have no kind words for these units because they think they are being victimised. 

Sir, the lack of professionalism in the Police Force has been a cry of many hon. Members of this House. We have taken note of these sentiments. Currently, we are trying to upgrade a building in Luanshya, which will facilitate programmes of upgrading serving officers in the Police Force constantly.

Sir, infrastructure, which includes police cells, police stations and housing for police officers is a big problem in the department. We need a lot of money to renovate the infrastructure and build new houses. Presently, we have a programme of building over 10,000 housing units countrywide.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, you are consulting loudly. It is only the hon. Minister who is debating. Can you consult without disrupting the proceedings, please?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The question of uniforms for the police and Immigration departments is a challenge that we face, and we have been looking at ways and means of domesticating and localising the production of uniforms. The Zambia National Service (ZNS), Zambia Police and, indeed, private citizens are working with us in this respect. 

Mr Chairperson, the much talked about Public Order Act is a law. As a member of the the Executive, I am here to enforce the law as it exists. If hon. Members of this House feel that it is inadequate or excessive, they should change it for the betterment of our people’s lives. This law is in place, currently, and I cannot come here without measures or suggestions intended to repeal it. So, if you saying that it is a bad law, ... Yes it is bad. So, give me good suggestions and we will come back to Parliament and amend it. 

Sir, I have been engaged here and elsewhere on the Public Order Act, and I challenge my colleagues to, please, tell me where they think this law is inadequate. Give me your proposals, then, we will consider them. Bring them to the House. However, as it is, it as a hobby-horse, and I take it that you do not mean what you say.

Sir, I wish to thank my colleagues for supporting the allocation to my ministry.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 11/01 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K239,196,286,477).

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Chairperson, having been a guest at Woodlands Police Station, …

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: … I seek clarification on page 99, Programme 4012, Activity 004 Cell Rehabilitation – Nil. I have observed that there is no provision for cell rehabilitation in 2013. Why is it so? May I also have clarification on page 111, Programme 4044, Activity 003 – Procurement of Commodities – K32,608,722,100. There has been an increase from K4,023,620,857 to K32,608,722,100, yet there was a pronouncement by His Excellency the President that the police will no longer be receiving mealie-meal, and that there would be an allowance added to their salaries. Why is this so? 

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Chairperson, the increase has been for the rations that are given to the officers whilst they are on operations. It is not for the supply of mealie-meal to police officers.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Did you address both questions on pages 99 and 111?

Interruption

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, Activity 004 has been moved from the headquarters to the provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 99, Programme 4012, Activity 111 – Grading of Camp Roads – Nil. Can the hon. Minister explain why there is no provision in next year’s Budget for that exercise? Further, I need clarification on page 100, Programme 4113, Activity 001 – CJOCS Meetings – Nil. There is no provision next year, yet, this year, we had K341,545,843. What is the reason for that? I also seek clarification on page 105, Programme 4010, Activity 014 – Public Losses – K143,200,000. What are these public losses that have been budgeted for?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4012, Activity 111, Grading of Camp Roads has not been provided for because it has been incorporated into Activity 003. Sorry, too many questions have been asked at one time.

Sir, Programme 4113, Activity 001– CJOCS Meetings, has been moved to provinces and units, and incorporated in Activity 043.

Mr Chairperson, under Programme 4010, Activity 014, the losses were incurred in the evaluation of public programmes.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 100, Programme 4023, Activity 033 – Procurement of Forensic Equipment – Nil. This year we had K766, 160,000 but, for next year, there is nothing. I thought the buying of forensic equipment was an on-going programme. What will happen next year?

Ms Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, that activity is on-going, but has been moved to another programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Which one?

The Chairperson: Order!

I think, when questions are being asked, let us pay particular attention. Further, those of us who are here to advise, please let us be sharp in giving advice. Otherwise, we will not progress. 

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 99, Programme 4012, Activity 205 – Electrification of Sikongo Police Camp – Nil. The activity has not taken place and we are now in November. Why is there no allocation in the 2013 Budget?

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Chairperson, the payment to ZESCO for this activity is being processed. The activity will be completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

The Chairperson: When business was suspended, the Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the year 1st January, 2013, to 31st December, 2013, had just finished considering Vote 11/01. We will now move on to Vote 11/02.

VOTE 11/02 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Protective Unit – K36,413,024,071).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 118, Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utility Services – K1,465,4756,858. I have seen a very big increase in the provision to this activity, from K147,000,000 in 2012 to K1,465,476,858 in 2013. What is the reason for that?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the increase has been necessitated by the decentralisation of this activity from Police Headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.  

VOTE 11/03 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Lilayi Police Training School – K31,928,520,018).

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 120, Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K23,767,888,165. Why has the allocation for salaries to this figure from the K10,725,439,324 for 2012, yet these salaries are paid to the staff who train police officers. What has necessitated the more than 100 per cent increase in the salaries for Division II officers?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the increase is a result of the 15 per cent salary increment and the introduction of the 10 per cent transport allowance awarded to the officers in 2012.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I think that the answer given is not satisfactory because if you add 25 per cent to K10 billion, it cannot be K23 billion. So, can I have a categorical answer.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I do not know the calculations the hon. Member is making. I have mentioned two percentages. There is a percentage increase for transport allowance and another one for salaries. We have also taken into account the fact that we are going to have some new recruits next year who will be added to the payroll.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: I think that is a better explanation.

Vote 11/03 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

VOTE 11/08 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Airport Division¬ –K21,118,310,557).

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 130, Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utilities – K1,465,476,858. The allocation for this activity has risen from K110,170,000 in 2012 to K1,465,476,858 in 2013. Why is there such a sharp increment?

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Chilangwa): Mr Chairperson, the K1,465,476,858 is required to pay for water, electricity and telephone bills. The increase has been a result of the decentralisation of this activity from the Police Headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 131, Programme 4040, Activity 006 – Traffic Operations – K25,000,000. In 2012, there was a provision of K37,625,000 for this activity, which amount was not even enough. So, why has it been reduced to K25 million?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the installation of road barriers at the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport has reduced the flow of traffic, hence the reduction in the allocation for traffic operations.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 130, Programme 4012, Activity 189 – Maintenance of Buildings – K40,800,000. I see that, for this year, the provision was K40 million and next year the same figure is being maintained. Is it a standard figure? If it is, what is the reason for that?

The Chairperson: Last year’s figure has not been maintained. The figures I am seeing here show that there is an increase by K800,000. Maybe, your figures are different from mine. However, be that as it may, hon. Minister, can you explain.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, you have observed correctly. There is a slight increase.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Mr Mufalali indicated.

The Chairperson: Sorry, you are late. I will give you a chance next time.

Laughter

VOTE 11/10 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Copperbelt Province – K103,289,549,599).

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utility Services – K1,465,476,858. There was nothing provided in 2012, but K1,465,476,858 has been allocated for next year, and the same amount is cutting across different units. Can the hon. Minister really justify it? Are the utility costs in all the units the same so as to warrant a lump sum across the board?

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, if justification is given by the hon. Minister, it will help us not to raise any more queries on that particular allocation.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, there have been huge outstanding bills for services like water and electricity. This is just the first step in trying to liquidate all the arrears as we move forward.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

VOTE 11/13 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Western Province – K25,217,257,572).

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 142, Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utilities – K1,236,107,980. Why has the Western Province been given K1,236,107,980 when all other provinces have been allocated K1.4 billion?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairman, like my colleague stated earlier, the bills vary from one place to another. So, the bills that are in the Western Province are obviously different from the other provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/14 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – K27,318,503,196).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 144, Programme 4013, Activity 028 – Station Inspections – K80,000,000. What is the reason for the increase by K30 million, from K50,000,000 this year to K80,000,000 next year?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, this is because we want to increase the frequency of visits.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/16 - (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – North-Western Province – K20,382,848,311).

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 148, Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries – Division III K23,296,996 and Activity 004 – Wages – K174,352,099. There are reductions in salaries and wages. May I have an explanation?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the decrease is not only for this particular head, but for a few others. This is due to the fact that, instead of basing the payments of the allocations on establishments, we are paying based on deployments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 148, Programme 4012, Activity 004 – Cell Rehabilitation – K100,000,000. Which cells will be rehabilitated in the province? Secondly, what is involved in Programme 4021, Activity 018 – Crime Prevention Awareness – K57,880,000?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the ministry is looking at the cells that are generally dilapidated in the province. That is where the works will be done.

Thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: What about the other question? There were two questions.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I am answering the second question.

Sir, the increase in the amount is required to cover the cost of crime prevention and awareness programmes. This increase is meant to cover increased costs of the same operations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 149, Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K172,803,463. What does this activity entail?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, this operation varies according to the activities. For example, in the recent Mufumbwe Parliamentary Constituency By-election, the ministry had to make sure that the police were deployed to maintain order.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 148, Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K121,840,128; Activity 004 – Staff Welfare; and Activity 009 – Utilities – K1,465,476,858. On Activity 003, there is a massive increment from K41,000,000 to K121,840,128. While I appreciate that, I would like to understand what it is for. Also, on Activity 004 – Staff Welfare - Nil, there is K215,234,589 this year, but nothing next year. Lastly, under Activity 009, there is a massive increment from K121,000,000 to K1,465,476,858. I appreciate that as well, but I would like to understand what it is for.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Activity 009 is meant to cover the payment of utility bills because there are huge arrears left by the MMD Government. In the other two activities of Office Accommodation and Staff Welfare, there has been increased activity in the North-Western Province. There is a lot of mining going on in Solwezi, and we now have Kalumbila Mine coming up. So, there is a need to increase the activity of the Police Force so that it can cover up-coming areas.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: That is correct, but Activity 004 – Staff Welfare, has nothing this year. So, you cannot say both activities have increased. Why is there nothing under Activity 004 – Staff Welfare?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we have mentioned in this House before that it is the Government’s intention to establish a bank from which public workers will be accessing loans. So, all these activities in most of the budget lines will not be appearing.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/17 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Southern Province – K37,825,472,968)

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 150, Programme 4012, Activity 004 – Cell Rehabilitation – K100,000,000. Which cells have been targeted for rehabilitation in the province?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, we have said that, generally, most of the cells in the country are dilapidated. Therefore, the provincial command will choose the cells which will be given priority.

Thank you, Sir.

Reverend Sikwela (Livingstone): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 150, Programme 4035, Activity 010 – Maintenance of Motor Vehicles – K78,421,977. All I see is an allocation towards the maintenance of motor vehicles. What about procurement? Does it mean that the vehicles will be procured centrally? Surely, if we do not procure vehicles for the police, we will be in trouble.

The Chairperson: Order! 

Your question is understood.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, he is right about. Procurement of new motor vehicles is coming under a different Head.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I have heard the answers that have been given by the hon. Deputy Minister on the rehabilitation of cells. He is saying that this is a general vote and that the provincial command will decide which cells will be rehabilitated. I just want to find out whether he is aware that this is an activity-based Budget and, therefore, each event must be specifically mentioned. You cannot say, in general terms, what is going to be done without itemising and naming the cells that will be rehabilitated. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, if we itemised every single activity in this Yellow Book, we would use a wheelbarrow to bring it to the House. 

Interruptions

Mrs Mwamba: However, what we are saying is that we know the number of activities. We also know that there are cells that require rehabilitation and have said that the command will decide. It is not for this House to decide or prioritise.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, these budgets come from provinces and specify what should be funded. When we want to be told which cells will be rehabilitated, someone in the Government should tell the hon. Minister which cells they have prioritised. We still need to know, exactly, which cells in the Southern Province will be rehabilitated. You are not going to have a blanket authority in an activity-based Budget. We need to know. However, if the hon. Minister says that she does not know, then that will be a different matter altogether.

Mr Nkombo: There are experts to tell them.

Mr Muntanga: There are experts within this building to help the hon. Minister on which cells will be rehabilitated. We need that information.

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, we know what we are talking about. I would like to inform the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo that there will be a schedule provided so that he can understand how these works will be scheduled.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Chairperson, as a follow-up to Hon. Muntanga’s question, it is important that we get satisfied with the answers being provided by the hon. Ministers. I appreciate the fact that they do not want to bring a wagon of the Budget here. However, as Hon. Muntanga emphasised, can we have an example of a prison and a cell they will rehabilitate in Kalomo Central. When they were making this Budget, they had to ask the people in Kalomo Central in the Southern Province to submit. This is why, sometimes, you find that, if a district has not submitted, it will not appear in the Budget. The fact that this matter is appearing means that somebody knows which cell should be rehabilitated. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I am happy that this is coming from an hon. Member who was once in the Executive. We never saw a Budget which came with the number of schools.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: What we are saying is that there is a work plan which will be availed. We cannot avail that work plan within these allocations. What to note, however, is that we have allocated funds according to the requests that were made by the people at the provincial level.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I believe strongly that formulation of this Budget has not deviated from the norm. It all begins at the district to the province, the ministries and, eventually, the Ministry of Finance, where it is finalised. Is it not just prudent for the hon. Minister to say that they will come back with the detail after they collect it from …

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mulamu, please.

The Chairperson: Order!

He is addressing the Chair. So, just listen.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, it will not do for members of the PF to continue with this attitude of saying that they know because this is going to be an exercise in expediency. Is it not possible for them to tell the experts who prepared the notes for them to give them the answer that they need to give us? That is not a sign of being incapable. They cannot know everything. Can they not ask the experts?

The Chairperson: My recollection is that, in one of the answers given, the hon. Minister said that a schedule is going to be availed. Therefore, that will take care of issues.

Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/18 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Muchinga Province – K11,460,971,777)

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 152, Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utility Services – K1,465,476,858. This is a new province. When did it accrue this kind of a bill within a year? 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, when Muchinga Province was created, there were districts that already existed and all these have been transferred to the Divisional Headquarters for Muchinga. Therefore, the bills are there from the districts. This is where this money will be apportioned.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, this is a very serious issue and the hon. Minister needs to come out clean on it. May I have clarification on page 152, Programme 4001, Activity 009 – K1,465,476,858. If there are bills that have accumulated in the various districts of Muchinga Province, could those bills not have been reflected here so that there is a database to warrant the allocation of that amount? This is very important because there is no way you can allocate K1.2 billion to the Western Province, for example, which has a lot of bills, and K1,465,476,858 to a new province whose bills are not known. This is discriminatory and the Executive must come out clean on it.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, we all know that there are many districts in Muchinga Province, such as Chinsali, Isoka, Chama, Nakonde and Mpika. These have accumulated bills for electricity and water that have been taken into account in this allocation.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 11/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/01 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K97,584,654,462).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, page 213, Programme 4003, Activity 028 – ZICA/ACCA/CIMA CPD Conferences – Nil. This year, this activity had a provision of K82,215,582, but there is no provision for next year. What is the reason for this? Further, on Programme 4052, I have noticed that all activities under have not been funded for next year. I am interested in Programme 4052, Activity 017 – Tender Meetings – Nil. Does this mean that there will not be any tender meetings next year?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, most of the people who were sent for training under Programme 4003, Activity 028, have finished their programmes. We will not have any people studying under these programmes next year.

Mr Chairperson, all the activities under Programme 4052 have been moved to Programme 4052, Unit 03 – Procurement and Supplies Management and Control Unit.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, on page 217, Programme 4012, Activities 002 – Archives Building Extension – K500,000,000; 054 – Construction of Lukulu Border Control – K100,000,000; 062 – Construction of Drug Rehabilitation Centres – K1,200,000,000; 070 – Construction of Kamapanda Border Control – K1,000,000,000; 071 – Construction of Kambimba Border Control – K1,000,000,-000; 073 – Construction of Kanyala Border Control – K250,000,000; 086 – Construction of National Registration Offices – K3,100,000,000; 087 – Construction of Office Building (Immigration Headquarters) – K10,000,000,000; 088 – Construction of Office Complex (MHA Headquarters) – K10,000,000,000; 104 Department Housing Projects (DEC Chipata Housing Project) – K2,000,000,000; 178 – Construction of Vubwi Border Post – K800,000,000; 179 – Construction of Chikalawa Border Post – K800,000,000; 180 – Fixtures and Fittings – National Archives Building – K900,000,000; 186 – Construction of Chipungu Border Post – K800,000,000; 197 – Construction of Nsumbu Border Post – K100,000,000; 198 – Construction of Office Building DEC Kabwe – K1,000,000,000; and 199 – Construction of Office Building, DEC Ndola – K1,000,000,000. 

Mr Chairperson, the figures that were allocated this year for these activities have been retained in 2013. Does it mean that the works were not done this year? I expected a reduction in the number of buildings to be constructed.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, most of the activities in Programme 4012 were not executed in 2012. Therefore, they will be executed in 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, under Programme 4001, Activity 024 – Police and Prisons Service Commission and Public Service Commission Tour – K300,000,000, the amount allocated in 2012 was K72,000,000, but it has risen to K300,000,000 for next year. What is the reason for this increase?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the increase is due to some outstanding assignments that want to carry out in the coming year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4008, Activity 057 – Disability – K24,000,000. What is this disability?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, disability is in different forms. We all have the potential to become disabled. Therefore, we have taken care of that aspect.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Chairperson, Programme 4012, Activity 117 – Prison Cells Improvement – K2,100,000,000. A few moments ago, we were told that this is being done within the provinces. Which prison cells will be improved at the headquarters?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, we talked about the Zambia Police Service earlier. Now, we are talking about the Police Headquarters. We have cells at the prisons too. For this activity, an Annual Work Plan will be issued, and that is what we are going to follow.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4059 …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, can we listen. When a question is being asked and you are talking, you will end up failing to answer. I am talking to you, Mr Kambwili.

Mr Kambwili: Sorry, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: The hon. Member for Kabompo West may finish his question.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, under Programme 4059, Activity 005 – Management of Records – K100,000,000,  the approved figure for 2012 was K23,076,750 while, in 2013, the amount has ‘frog-jumped’ to K100,000,000. Why has there been this enormous increase?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I think that most of the hon. Members acknowledge that record-keeping in the Public Service has been very problematic. We are trying to computerise the system so that there can be order in record-keeping in the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4012, Activity 117 – Prison Cells Improvement – K2,100,000,000, what kind of prison cells there are at the Headquarters of the Ministry of Home Affairs?

Mr Chairperson, also on Programme 4012, Activity 117 – Prison Cells Improvement – K2,100,000,000, without bringing a wheel-barrow or scotch cart in the House, ...

The Chairperson: Which programme is that?

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4012. The Executive is very specific on where the money is going. Can they say whether nothing was done this year, seeing that the same figure has been retained for next year?

Mr Muntanga left the microphone on.

Mr Chilangwa: Shimyeniko icho, ba Muntanga.

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, always speak the official language.

Mr Chilangwa: Sorry, Mr Chairperson. I was just asking him to switch off his microphone.

The Chairperson: Yes, that is why I said you should use the official language.

Mr Chilangwa: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, as I mentioned earlier, the Zambia Police has a specific Head. The cells were debated earlier under Zambia Police because that is where the fall under.

Sir, the K2,100,000,000 is for the Zambia Prisons Service. As we all know, this is an on-going activity because the prison cells across the country need to be constantly upgraded. This is where this K2,100,000,000 is going to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 218, Programme 4101, Activity 004 – Departmental Housing Project – Nil. I note that, in 2013, there is no allocation. There is a shortage of housing in the Police Service. Why is there no provision for building houses for officers this year?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to correct the hon. Member. He is referring to lack of houses for the Zambia Police staff, but the hon. Minister earlier indicated that there was a programme of building housing units in the ministry. I would like to respond to Hon. Muntanga’s concern about the need for us to be specific at the ministry headquarters.

Sir, these allocations were planned for 2012 under the ministry headquarters, but not disbursed. That is how they have still come under headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 215, Programme 4100, Activity 002 – Acquisition of Centre Pivots – K1,600,000,000. How many centre pivots will be procured from this amount?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the K1,600,000,000, once again, is meant for the procurement of a number of equipment for our prisons to embark on extensive farming. So, we may not be able to say, exactly, how many pivots we are going to procure. The schedule can be availed in due course.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/01 ordered to sand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/02 – (Ministry of Home Affairs –Prisons and Reformatories – K104,334,335,471).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 219, Programme 4002. I notice from those activities that Secretaries Day is missing. The one that we have just approved and others, have that provision. Why is that activity missing in this Vote?

Secondly, Sir, I seek clarification on page 220, Programme 4013, Activity 010 – Operations –K2,200,517,500. This year, there was a provision for K946 million but, next year, it has increased to K2.2 billion. Why is there this huge increase?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, with regard to Secretaries’ Day, we have had to deal prioritise. You will discover that some of the activities that the hon. Member is talking about may be missing from the list of activities for 2013. However, it does not mean that the Secretaries Day is not so important. It will be budgeted for in the coming year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chilangwa: Sir, the increase to Programme 4013, Activity 010 – Operations, is due to the increased number of activities. We need to escalate the number of operations so that we meet the challenges that our people face.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I am sure, the hon. Ministers have notes to support the Votes. May I have clarification on page 220, Programme 4007, Activities 009 – Outstanding Bills – Nil, and Activity 010 – Settlement of Outstanding Bills – Prisons Welfare – K7,000,000,000. In the Budget for 2012, there was K150 million and K658 million, respectively, but, for next year, the amounts have gone up to K1.2 billion and K7 billion, respectively. Does it mean that these arrears were accrued within one year? Why did the Government not provide for the same in 2012?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we have clearly indicated that these are arrears which have been accruing over time, not just in one year. We have never had a time when arrears were cleared and we started afresh. We are just allocating funds to start dismantling them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 220, Programme 4010, Activity 013 – Public Accounts Committee Matters – Nil. Why is there no allocation to this activity? I thought this was an important activity for Parliament.

Sir, may I also have clarification on page 221, Programme 4042, Activity 013 – Research and Planning –K100,000,000. Why is there this big reduction when this is an important activity?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4010, Activity 013 has been merged with Activity 027 – Routine Accounting Services – K355,000,000. 

Sir, Programme 4042, Activity 013, has got some other programmes which have been allocated some funds other than those under the ministry headquarters. You will find them as we go on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. Zimba (Kapiri-Mposhi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 220, Programme 4013, Activity 010 – Operations – K2,200,517,500.

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Zilo one zilo?

Mr L. Zimba: Yes, zilo one zilo.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, the figure for 2012 was K946,482,672, but it has jumped to K2,200,517,500 for next year. What is the cause of this huge increase?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, our colleagues must be following closely when we are responding. This particular aspect has been tackled. I think that the hon. Member might not have followed, but we have responded to … 

The Chairperson: How did you tackle it?

Mr Kampyongo: We said that the increase is due to a rise in operational activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 2019, Programme 4000, Activity 009 – Staff Recruitment – K2,298,064,976. We are all aware that there is a general lack of staff in the Prison Service. I see that there was K14,621,505,492 allocated last year, but only K2,298,064,976 for next year. I am getting slightly worried because we are supposed to be recruiting more members of staff. Why has the figure been reduced?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I think that the hon. Member is aware that there was a large number of officers recruited this year. Next year, there will be a smaller number of officers who will be recruited. That is why there is a reduction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 221, Programme 4042, Activity 013 – Research and Planning – K100,000,000. An answer was given that there is a reduction because some of the activities have been moved to another programme. The reduction is from K308,000,000 to K100,000,000. Why is there a reduction, and to which programme have the other activities been taken?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: We should be told proper answers. Where have the … 

Hon. Opposition Member: Is there another Yellow Book?

Mr Muntanga: … other funds been put for research and planning?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, we have relocated some of the funds to Programme 4052, Activity 015 – Procurement of Food and Rations – K12,006,317,288 . There are a number of activities that this department will be handling. We are going digital. So, there are certain funds which we have allocated to the Research and Planning Department through the projects that we shall be undertaking.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: I put the question … 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairperson: Do not say, ‘No’. I am in the Chair.

Laughter  

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 15/02 – Ministry of Home Affairs – Prisons and Reformations – K104,334,335,471 be allowed to stand part of the estimates put and the House voted.

Ayes – (68)

Mrs E. Banda 
Mr N. Banda    
Mr C. Banda
Mr Bwalya 
Mr. Chabala
Mr Chanda
Mr Chansa
Dr Chikusu
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisala
Mr Kabimba, SC.
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brigadier-General Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Dr Kasonde
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Mrs Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Ms Limata 
Mr Lubinda
Dr E. Lungu
Mr E. C. Lungu
Prof Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Malama Mwimba
Mr Masumba
Mr Matafwali
Mr Mbulu
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mutaka
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musukwa
Mr B. Mutale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Dr Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Dr Scott
Mr Sichinga 
Mr Sichone 
Mr Sichula 
Mr Sikazwe 
Mr Simbyakula
Mr Taima
Prof Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr J. Zimba

Noes – (53)

Mr Antonio 
Mr Belemu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo
Mrs A. Chungu
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamudulu
Mr Hamusonde
Mr Kakoma
Mr Katambo
Mr Katuka
Mr Kazonga
Mr Kunda 
Mr Livune
Mr Lufuma
Prof Lungwangwa
Mr Malama Mushili
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Monde
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Mulusa
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr M. Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr V. Mwale
Mr M. Mwale
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Njeulu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Lieutenant -General Shikapwasha
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sianga
Rev Sikwela
Mr Sililo
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Sing’ombe
Mr L. Zimba

Abstentions – NIL

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates 

VOTE 15/03 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Passport and Citizenship – K7,278,731,979).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 223, Programme 4001, Activity 009 –Utilities – K149,990,163, and Programme 4007, Activity 005 – Outstanding Bills – K149,990,163. Why are the provision for arrears for this year and next year identical? Is it by coincidence?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the allocations are the same because we saw that we managed to clear the bills with that amount this year. We anticipate that we will be able to do the same in the coming year. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga:  Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 223, Programme 4002, Activity 020 – shows and Exhibitions – K61,751,330, Activity 023 – World AIDS Day – K63,930,789, Activity 040 – Youth Day Celebrations – K10,679,348 and Activity 047 – Public Service Day -94,443,221. There were no allocations for these activities last year. This year, the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship wants to have shows and exhibitions. What will the department be doing at these shows and exhibitions? Will it be showing the passports that the citizens of Zambia should have? 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I think that it is common knowledge that most of our people do not even understand the procedure of getting passports. These programmes will be used to educate the public on that.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/04 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Archives – K4,533,672,245).

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 226, Programme 4031, Activity 009 – International and Regional Co-operation – K100 million. This activity has never been provided for before. What does this international and regional co-operation relate to?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the Department of National Archives needs exposure. The staff needs to interact with other international organisations and sister departments that do similar tasks. We, therefore, have created this allocation for that purpose. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 227, Programme 4001 – General Administration, Programme 4011 – Information Management and Programme 4005 – Cultural and Religious Matters. Why is it that there is no provision for each of those three programmes next year?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, those programmes have been catered for under Programme 4059.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 225, Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division 1 – 694,093,527. I note that this activity has been given a 300 per cent increment and Activity 2002 – K823,248,644 has been given a 90 per cent increment. Why has the 300 per cent increment been awarded to one group of people?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the perceived high increment is to cater for recruitment in the Department of National Archives so that we can have offices countrywide which are fully manned. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 226, Programme 4035, Activity 002 – Motor Vehicle Maintenance and Running Costs- K39,792,460 and Activity 010 – Maintenance of Motor Vehicles – K83,000,000. What is the difference between the two activities?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the difference is that one vote is for insurance while the other is for maintenance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 227, Programme 4075 and Programme 4076. The Western Province is missing among these provinces. Why is this so?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I would like to admit that there are some typographical errors in the Yellow Book and amendments are to be made.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that we need a proper answer. Can the hon. Minister, please, clarify that. Otherwise, we will not be able to pass this vote.

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Let me also just guide, please, the officers who are here should also be able to assist. That is why they are here. Otherwise, we may get into trouble.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, we are rolling out a programme, but we do not have enough resources. You will notice that even Muchinga Province is not there, but we will look into that as resources are made available in the coming year.

I thank you, Sir

The Chairperson: At least, that is an answer.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, my question is a procedural one. In the hon. Deputy Minister’s response, she indicated that there are typographical errors in the Yellow Book, and that amendments will be brought to this House. This indicates that the Yellow Book is defective. I would like to know whether, procedurally, we can go ahead, instead of allowing the Executive to bring those amendments. Further, if the amendments are coming, at what stage will they come?

The Chairperson: I thought that I made a ruling that the answer by the hon. Deputy Minister was unacceptable, and that is why it was later clarified by the hon. Minister. So, I think, that explanation has been given.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, does it mean that we will pass a Budget that has no expense for the Western and Muchinga provinces?

Further, Mr Chairperson, may is seek clarification on page 225, Programme 4007, Activity 004 – Utility Services- K114,000,000. Why is it that, for last year, the amount that was given for this activity was K113,669,989 while, this year, it is K114,000,000?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, in my earlier response, I said that we will see how we managed with the amount allocated this year and hope to manage with the similar amount next year.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: The other question was on why there will be no money allocated for the two provinces.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, in fact, we intend to cater for those provinces which have been left from the Headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, through her own admission, the hon. Deputy Minister told us that this Budget is defective. We are beginning to agree with her because …

The Chairperson: Order, Ms Siliya!

I ruled on that matter earlier, and we should not go back to what I ruled on.

Hon Opposition Member: Ah!

The Chairperson: You cannot be saying ‘ah’ because that is what I ruled. Do not question the Chairperson’s ruling.

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on page 226, Programme 4035, Activity 002 – Motor Vehicle Maintenance and Running Costs K39,792,460 and Activity 010 – Maintenance of Motor Vehicles – K83,000,000. Hon. Mutati asked why both activities related to motor vehicle maintenance and maintenance of motor vehicles, and we were told that one of them is for insurance. However, on Activity 001- Insurance-K30,750,000, we see that insurance is standing alone. Can we get a clear answer from the hon. Minister so that we do not again use the word ‘defective’.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the response that the hon. Minister gave was that one allocation was for running costs while the other was specifically for maintenance of motor vehicles.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Ms Siliya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

You are challenging the rulings of the Chairperson, one of which is the option we used. We cannot go on indefinitely.

VOTE 15/04 – (Ministry of Home Affairs, K4,533,672,245)

Hon Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 15/04 – Ministry of Home Affairs, K4,533,672,245 be amended put and the House voted.

Ayes – (69)

Mr Banda
Mr Banda
Mrs Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Mr Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikusu
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisala
Mr Kabimba
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Mrs Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Katema
Mr Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Limata
Mr Lubinda
Mr Lungu
Mr Lungu
Professor Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Malama
Mr Masumba
Mr Matafwali
Mr Mbulu
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr Ngoma
Mr Ngonga
Mr Phiri
Mr Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sampa
Dr Scott
Mr Sichinga
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Simbyakula
Mr Taima
Mr Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba

Noes – (40)

Mr Chingimbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Mr Chishiba
Mr Chituwo
Mr Chungu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamudulu
Mr Kakoma
Mr Katambo
Mr Katuka
Dr Kazonga
Mr Kunda
Mr Lufuma
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Malama
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Monde
Mr Mooye
Mr Mulomba
Mr Mulusa
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwale
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Pande
Lieutenant- General Shikapwasha
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Zimba

Abstentions – (01)

Mr Njeulu

Question agreed to.

Vote 15/04, accordingly amended

Vote 15/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/05 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Immigration Department – K38,025,985,768).

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 229, Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K 420,000,000, Activity 009 – Utilities – K274,800,000, Activity 031 – Staff Transfers – K120,000,000 and Activity 033 – Medical Scheme – K37,000,000.  I note that these activities are receiving funding for the first time. I just want to understand from the hon. Minister how these activities were funded previously. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4001, Activity 031 – Staff Transfers – K120,000,000 is for movement of staff from one place to another. 

I thank you, Sir.   

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 233, Programme 4071, Activity 010 – Publication of Corporate Newsletter. I note that, this year, there was a provision of K13,000,000, but there is nothing for next year. May I know why this is so? Has the newsletter come to an end?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Publication of Corporate Newsletter has been discontinued.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 231, Programme 4031, Activity 024 – Procurement of Boats – Nil. This activity has no allocation. I would like to know why this is so because the boat which was supposed to be for Kalabo last year was taken to Mpulungu and the hon. Minister for Home Affairs promised that another one would be catered for in the 2013 Budget. However, I can see that the budget line is blank. What is the explanation?  

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the procurement of boats has not been ignored. It will be catered for under Programme 4052. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 229, Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K 420,000,000, Activity 009 – Utilities – 274,800,000, Activity 031 – Staff Transfers – K120,000,000 and Activity 033 – Medical Scheme – K37,000,000. We are not looking for definitions. These activities are coming into the Budget for the very first time. How were they administered in the previous financial years, taking into account that this is not a new ministry or department? 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the activities used to be provided for under general administration. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 229, Programme 4003, Activity 017 – Specialised Training – K60,000,000. Why is there a reduction in the allocation under this activity?  

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, there is a reduction in the allocation for Specialised Training because the activity has been on-going, and the number of staff who will be on it will reduce. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 232, Programme 4044, Activity 005 – Procurement of Uniforms – K 150,000,000. In 2012, K590 million was allocated for the purchase of uniforms and it was sufficient. In 2013, a paltry K150 million has been allocated. Why is this so when the ministry is expecting uniforms?   

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the items in question were bought in large numbers enough to cover the next two to three years.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4085, Activity 005 – Medical Scheme – Nil. I have seen that there was an allocation in 2012, but I have anything for 2013. Why is there no allocation for 2013?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, that activity has been moved to a Vote we debated earlier, under Programme 4001 – General Administration, Activity 033 –Medical Scheme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4048, Activity 005 – Human Trafficking – Nil. There was an allocation of K25,186,625 in 2012, but there is nothing for 2013, …

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: … meaning that there is no more human trafficking.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: May I know why.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, that activity has been moved to Programme 4023 under Crime Detection and Prevention, Activity 001 – Anti-human Trafficking Programmes.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 036 – General Investigations – Nil. Last year, this activity was allocated K48,970,000 but, in 2013, there is nothing. I thought that this was the backbone of the Immigration Department. So, why is there no allocation for 2013?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been moved to programme 4052.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 009 – Intelligence Gathering – K90,000,000, and Activity 017 – Frauds Prevention – K30,000,000. Intelligence Gathering is the backbone activity of this department. Why has the allocation been reduced from K284,188,657 to K90,000,000?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to the ceiling we had. Looking at how we managed with the amount we were allocated this year, we know that we are able to execute the activities within the allocation.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 007 – Triangle of Hope and Private Sector Development Reform Programmes – K25,000,000. Could the hon. Minister inform the House what specific activities will be carried out under the Triangle of Hope which will warrant an expenditure of K25,000,000? 
Secondly, may I also have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 052 – Conducting Sting Operations and Chase-Ups – Nil. There is no funding proposed for next year. How will these activities be carried out?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4013, Activity 007, the allocation has been increased from K5,000,000, this year, to K25,000,000, next year because, as we all know, next year, Zambia is co-hosting the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) Conference. So, there will be a need for interaction and more seminars to ensure that we meet the challenges coming with the Conference.

Sir, Programme 4031, Activity 052 has moved to Programme 4028, Activity 007 – Conducting Sting Operations and Chase-Ups – K270,000,000. This activity has been lacking for a very long time. As we know, it has been the cry of almost all hon. Members of Parliament that there have not been any chase-up operations in the compounds to mop up illegal immigrants. So, this money will be used for these operations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, there are four hon. Ministers in this ministry. So, I would like to follow up on Professor Lungwangwa’s question. May I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 052 – Conducting Sting Operations and Chase-ups – Nil. In the 2012 Budget, there is K651,680,000 but, now, the same activity has been moved to Programme 4028 under Human Rights Investigations, Activity 007 – Conducting Sting Operations and Chase-ups, with a provision of K270,000,000. Arising from that answer that he gave, which was that there is a need to scale up the operations, why has the figure been reduced from K651 to K270? Further, why has it moved from Internal and External Operations to Human Rights Investigations?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I agree with the hon. Member asking. Yes, it is has been broken down so that each particular department can have its own. Under Programme 4028, there is K270,000,000, but, if you go further down under Programme 4031, again, we have part of the same activity allocated K150,000,000 in that department.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, on the two items I wish to talk about, I have noticed that there seems to be a systematic desire to run away from compliance.

The Chairperson: Which programme?

Mr Mulusa: May I have clarification on Programme 4006, Activity 011 – Subscriptions to International Organisations – K30,000,000. There is a reduction from K86,804,784 to K30,000,000. What is the reason, especially that we need to subscribe to as many international organisations as possible to catch criminals. 

May I also have clarification on …

Sorry, Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Muntanga: If you are lost, sit down.

Mr Mulusa: … Programme 4013, Activity 050 – Risk Management and Compliance – Nil. There was an allocation of K144,120,000, this year, but, now, there is nothing. I would like to understand why the ministry would like to do away with compliance.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Switch off the microphone, please.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to the payment of outstanding subscription fees, which was done in 2012. With regard to the second question, Programme 4013, Activity 050, has been provided for under Activity 062.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 15/06 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – National Registration Department – K33,402,520,722).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utilities – Nil; Programme 4007, Activity 004 – Utility Services – K416,000,000. Which budget line will be used for utilities in next year’s Budget, since there is no provision there?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Activity 009 has moved to Programme 4008 – Cross-Cutting Issues.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. Why is there no provision for 2013?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the response to this question is similar to the one I gave earlier, that the staff loans will be accessed through the revolving fund before the Ministry of Finance establishes a bank where all civil servants will acquire loans from.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I and Activity 002 – Salaries Division II. I note that the allocations to these activities have gone up by 100 per cent. Since this is due to recruitment of staff, I hope the Government will recruit double the number of staff that it has. Is that is the case?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I think that I have elaborately debated this increment. However, we have taken into account the fact that we have had an increment in terms of emoluments.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4032, Activity 009 – Village Registration – K550,000,000. What is this Village Registration? Further, Programme 4059, Activity 004 – Inspection of Records – K55,000,000. Which records are these?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4032, Activity 009 entails taking services to people at the local level in terms of registration. It is more or less like mobile registration, and we shall be working in collaboration with the Ministry of Health, through the health centres. This registration does not just relate to national registration cards. We are talking about birth and death registration as well as other registrations that we will embark on.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 023 – World Aids Day – K30,522,084. In this year’s Budget, this activity was allocated K86,000,000, but it has been reduced to K30,522,084 in next year’s Budget when so many people want to celebrate this day. Why was this amount been reduced?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, this reduction was necessitated by the fact that we have spent about K30 million in 2012. So, we feel that it can still be covered within the estimate of K30,522,084 allocated for next year.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. Why has the Government decided to abolish Staff Welfare when the bank they are referring to where the civil servants are going to be getting loans from has not even been established or operationalised? 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I indicated that, in the meantime, these loans will be accessed through the revolving fund at the Ministry of Finance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 017 – Mobile Registration – K2,500,000,000. Why is mobile registration classified as a cross-cutting issue? Further, how different are the activities under Mobile Registration and those under Programme 4032?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, these activities will be carried out in collaboration with the Ministry of Health. The mobile registration we are talking about is the issuance of national registration cards. You must understand that there will be many activities that will be undertaken under this department next year.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4032, Activity 009 – Village Registration – K550,000,000. In his answer to my earlier question, the hon. Minister indicated that Village Registration will include birth, marriage and death certificates. However, in Programme 4032, Activity – 010 Births, Marriages and Deaths Registration, there is K2,690,000,000 allocated to the same activity. Why is he saying that the K550,000,000 will be used for activities that have already been allocated K2,690,000,000?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4032, Activity 010, will cater for the whole country while Programme 4032, Activity 009, is specifically meant for villages.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, our understanding is that village registration, which was budgeted for in 2012, should be done in villages. In which villages was it done in 2012 so that we know where this programme will now continue?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member would like to know how many people were registered, we can avail that information later. It has been an on-going programme, but we do not have the figures on how many people were registered on our finger-tips. I do not even think that can be possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 15/06 – Ministry of Home Affairs – National Registration Department – K33,402,520,722 be ordered to stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted. 

Ayes – (69)

Mrs Banda
Mr Banda N.
Mr Banda C.
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Colonel Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Dr Chikusu
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisala
Mr Kabimba, SC.
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kapata
Brigadier-General Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Dr Kasonde
Dr Katema
Colonel Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Mr Lungu
Dr Lungu
Professor Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Malama M. H.
Mr Masumba
Mr Matafwali
Mr Mbulu
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musukwa
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr Ngoma P.
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Phiri 
Dr Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sampa
Dr Scott
Mr Sichinga
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Taima
Professor Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba J.

Noes (46)

Mr Belemu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Mr Chishiba
Mrs Chungu
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Mr Kakoma
Mr Katambo
Mr Katuka
Dr Kazonga
Mr Kunda
Mr Livune
Mr Lufuma
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Malama M.
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Monde
Mr Mooya
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Mulusa
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Mwale M. B.
Mr Mwale V.
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Namulambe
Mr Njeulu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Pande
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Reverend Sikwela
Mr Sililo
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Sing’ombe
Mr Zimba L.

Abstentions – (0)

Question agreed to.

Vote 15/06 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 15/08 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Research and Information Department – K8,954,622,776).

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 239, Programme 4095, Activity 006  – Decentralisation Implementation Plan – K40,000,000. The allocation for next year is four times what it was this year. Is this particular activity linked to the National Decentralisation Implementation Plan (NDIP)?

Mr Kampyongo: Yes, Mr Chairperson. The K40 million is required to facilitate the implementation of the NDIP in 2013. The increase of K30 million is due to the increase in the cost of consultative meetings.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I would like an explanation on page 238, Programme 4042, Activity 018 – Local Integration of Refugees for which the budget, this year, was K100 million, but there is nothing for this activity next year. Taking into account that there were very few activities on this matter this year, and many refugees are still with us, why is there no allocation for this important exercise?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the activity has moved to Head 15/01, Programme 4031– Internal and External Operations – K1,746,297,200 .

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, I am on page 237, Programme four zilo zilo zilo, Activity  – zilo, zilo one and zilo, zilo two …

Hon. Government Members: Zilo?

Mr L. Zimba: Yes, that is the new ‘vision’ of pronunciation.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Vision?

Mr L. Zimba: There is a sharp increase in the allocations for Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K2,467,347,225 and Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K2,073,000,961. Why is this not the case for Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K80,718,674?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to pay officers in Division I during 2013. The increase is due to salary increments awarded to the officers and the promotions of officers to Division I in 2012. The same is the case with the provision for officers in Division II.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 238, Programme 4048, Activity 005 – Anti-Human Trafficking Programme – Nil. Zambia is used as a transit point for human trafficking in Southern Africa. Why is there no money allocated towards the Anti-Human Trafficking Programme like it was this year?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I acknowledge my dear colleague’s concern that this challenge of human trafficking is with us. This Activity has just moved to Programme 4023 – Crime Detection and Prevention.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page Programme 4008, Activity 010 – HIV/AIDS Awareness and Food Supplements – K51,787,160. The budget has doubled, which is quite generous. Is this a result of our awareness programmes not doing well so that there has been an increase in the number of HIV/AIDS patients or is there another reason?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the reason is the increase in the number of people who will need food supplements.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 238, Programme 4034, Activity 006 – Review of Legislation – K54,500,000. There is an increase. What legislation is going to be reviewed?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required for reviewing various pieces of legislation in the year 2013. The increase of K44,500,000 is due to the increase in the number of consultative meetings to be held in the processes. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I wish to follow up on the issue raised by the hon. Member for Kapiri-Mposhi. May I have a clarification on page 237, Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K2,467,347,225 and Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K2,073,000,691. The increment here is 400 per cent for each allocation. Why is this particular department being so favoured? 

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, if we go back to history, we shall find out that, very few officers have been promoted in the past ten years. This problem went on right into 2012. Apart from catering for the 15 per cent salary increment, the allocation is also meant to facilitate the promotion of officers, which has been accelerated. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 237, Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utilities – Nil. I have noticed that there is no budget for utilities, but there is an allocation for Programme 4007 – Dismantling of Arrears. Why is there no budget for utilities? Is it that we are just prepared to pay for utilities in arrears?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the activity has just moved to Programme 4001 – General Administration.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, on page 237, Programme 4010, Activity 025 – Budget Preparations – K120,250,000 is very interesting. There was a provision of K20 million this year to prepare a two and half paged budget. Now, there is a provision of K120,250,000 for 2013. What has prompted this huge increase from K20 million to K120,250,000, which is an increase of K100 million, yet we are just talking about working on something that will take up two and half pages?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the K120,250,000 is to cater for budget preparations. The increase of almost K100 million is due to the increase in the cost of co-ordinating budget preparations.

Hon. Opposition Member: Question.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the number of participants will increase in 2013. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 238, Programme 4023, Activity 044 – Establishment of an Anti-terrorism Centre – K 1,027,535,308. I was of the opinion that terrorism is only in the Middle East, but it seems that it has come here as well. What exactly is this centre being built for in Zambia?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, yes, indeed, it may seem as though we are not at risk. However, it is always important to prepare ourselves because some of the countries we have seen being hit also thought that they would always enjoy peace. It is always important to prepare proactively for such eventualities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 237, Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K2,467,347,225 and Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K2,073,000,691. The hon. Deputy Minister said that the increment in the two allocations was intended to cater for salary increments. What percentage is this increment going to be?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I indicated that increments were for promotions, a 15 per cent salary increment and a 10 per cent transport allowance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4042, Activity 017 – Drug Trafficking in Zambia – K250,000,000. The allocation for next has remained the same as this year’s. My concern is that the source of the marijuana trafficked in Zambia are the remotest parts of our country where our officers cannot reach because of the lack of resources.

The Chairperson: Order!

Ask your question.

Mr Miyanda: Why is the same amount being maintained when drug trafficking levels have risen?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the amount has remained the same because consultancy fees may not change so much.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The Executive, really, we are being disorderly. This is a Budget and I expect hon. Members from the Executive to cooperate.

VOTE 15/14 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – Prisons and Reformatories – K1,520,883,414).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 245, Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K108,773,131. Why has Office Administration in the Eastern Province received a minimal increase when compared with other provinces?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, the minimal increment, as the hon. Member puts it, is due to the demand that was made. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 245, Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. What wrong have the officers done that they will not be considered for staff welfare this coming year? 

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, we have answered this question several times. However, just in case the hon. Member did not get our answer, there is no provision for Staff Welfare in 2013 because of the introduction of a Public Service bank.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we have been hearing this statement from hon. Members of the Executive. Can they confirm to the House, the nation and the workers that the bank has been established so that there is no anxiety.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the establishment of the bank is work in progress. By the time we are through with the Budget, something will be on the ground. 

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/17 – (Ministry of Home Affairs - Southern Province – Prisons and Reformatories – K1,573,530,800).

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 248, Programme 4038, Activity 001 – Offender Management – K40,859,700. Is this the money used for both Katombora and Mazabuka Reformatories, where we have children, or have the two been left out?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the facility that the hon. Member is referring to is under the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health.

Thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 248, Programme 4013, Activity 042 – Station Operations – K395,510,540 and Activity 047 – District Office Administration – K160,000,000. These two seem to be intertwined. Can the hon. Minister help me draw a line between them.

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, Activity 047 – District Office Administration – K160,000,000 is required to meet office running expenses for prisons within the region. The increase of K19,000 is meant to enhance office operations. By the way, operations, in the Police Force, are different from administration. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Page 249, Programme 4001, …

The Chairperson: Order!

I beg your pardon. You are on Head 15/18 on page 249. We are dealing with Head 15/17.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, on page 248, Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. I am aware that a Public Service Bank will be established, which requires money. I would like to be informed on where that money is in this Budget.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, that question can be best answered by the hon. Minister of Finance, who is in charge of this Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, on page 248, Programme 4038, Activity 001 – Offender Management – K40,859,700.  The hon. Minister indicated earlier, when he answered Mr Muntanga’s question, that Katombora Reformatory Centre and Mazabuka Correction Centre are under the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. What purpose will this money for offender management serve?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, let me correct the hon. Member. I did not say that both facilities belong to the Ministry of Community Development Mother and Child Health. Katombola Reformatory is under the Ministry of Home Affairs. This provision is required for offender management within the region. The increment of K2,000,000 is because more  programmes have been introduced. It is also meant to enhance the implementation of offender management activities at Katombora Reformatory.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/20 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Northern Province – Passport and Citizenship – K131,498,523).

Mr Chisanga: Mr Chairperson, the Department total for next near is the same as the amount for this year. Why is there no increment for the Northern Province?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, there has been no increase in the number of activities in the last two years.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, page 251, Programme 4032, Activity 012 – Processing of Travel Documents – K22,677,993. The provision for this year is exactly the same as the one for next year. Will the cost and volume of these documents remain constant next year?

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I believe that it will be within the same range. In addition, a few districts have been moved to Muchinga Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, the Northern Province has been the least-funded of all the other provinces in the department. Are we being punished because of Hon. Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba (GBM)?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I will sever the malicious part of the question, but answer the one that is worth answering. Hon. Members should realise that the initial Northern Province has been cut into two provinces, and Muchinga Province has inherited some of the districts that were in the Northern Province, hence this situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: He has no question.

Mr Mwimbu: Mr Chairperson, I have a question. I rise on page 251, Programme 4001, …

Hon. Members: On what page?

Mr Mwiimbu: … Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. The clarification I seek, for the benefit of our workers, whom we are here to represent, is that the creation of the so-called bank is under consideration. Assuming that we approve it, this bank will only start operations, possibly, in January, 2013, which means that, before it starts operating, the workers will not have any staff welfare. This bank may take more than six months to start operations. What will happen to the welfare of our hardworking members of staff?

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I explained that the issue of the bank that will be established is a matter being considered under the Ministry of Finance. The hon. Minister of Finance will give us the exact details of how this bank will be set up, including details on whether it will be under the Ministry of Finance or set up by the workers.

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu: You want me to read the answer. For now, workers will be receiving loans through revolving funds. However, this bank is in the process of being formed. The hon. Minister of Finance will make a policy statement on this.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, can the hon. Minister try and …

Mr Simbao: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order, and apologise to Hon. Nkombo for curtailing his question.

Mr Nkombo: It is alright.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, earlier, when I asked why the Northern Province is the least-funded compared with other provinces, the hon. Minister said that it is because of the creation of Muchinga Province. However, in this Budget, there is no Muchinga Province under the Department of Passport and Citizenship. Therefore, how did he answer that question like that? 

Is he in order to mislead me and the nation, Sir?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, please, take into account that point of order when you answer the question.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, we are dealing with Head 15/20 ─ Ministry of Home Affairs ─ Northern Province ─ Passport and Citizenship. In explaining why there has been stagnation in certain allocations, I said that it was because the province lost out some districts. So, probably, when dealing with Muchinga, I will be able to answer some more related questions.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sir, we will manage Muchinga from the headquarters, for the time being, until we set up structures in the area.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu:  I do not know whether my colleagues have read the Yellow Book thoroughly.  If you look at page 286, …. (flipping the pages).

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sini ona!

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu: Sorry, the print is very small.

Interruptions

Mr E. C. Lungu: My eyes are bad.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, page 287 talks of Ministry of Home Affairs – Muchinga Province – Passport and Citizenship. You can forgive me. My sight is rather bad.

Interruptions

Hon. Members: It is there!

The Chairperson: Mr Livune.

Hon. Opposition Members: No. He was still asking and there was a point of order.

The Chairperson: Who raised the point of order?

Hon. Opposition Members: Mr Simbao.

Mr Chairperson: Ok. Can Hon. Nkombo continue with his question.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the fact that it has been a long day for all of us due to the defective nature of this Budget.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, my question is a follow-up to the one asked by Hon. Mwiimbu on staff welfare and the establishment of a bank. The hon. Minister indicated that workers will be drawing money for staff welfare, in the interim, from a revolving fund. Could he be kind enough to show me where this revolving fund is in the Yellow Book, and how much it is?

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Laughter

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I face the risk of going into another portfolio. I am dealing with the Ministry of Home Affairs. Suffice it to say that, when civil servants get loans, they pay them back. This money which is paid back is the one that is given to civil servants as loans. However, I do not want to venture beyond that point because this issue is a policy matter to be dealt with by the hon. Minister of Finance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Livune: … what constitutes staff welfare? Is it loans only? If it is loans only, then there has been a misuse of the wording. What is this staff welfare? You have been using this term for staff loans. I want to know what other things are part of staff welfare.

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, staff welfare includes salary advances, car loans, and general 
loans.

Hon. Government Members: Division. 

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Division.

Mr Chairperson: Order!

At the time the Vote was being passed, there were less than twelve hon. Members from the Opposition who were against it. So, that decision is passed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

VOTE 15/21 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Western Province – Passport and Citizenship) – K157,473,064.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 252, Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. The Western Province got K7,264,619 for staff welfare in 2012, but does not have that allocation for next year. Surprisingly, our neighbours seem to have that allocation. Why has the Western Province not been given money for staff welfare for next year when other provinces have the allocation in this same Yellow Book? 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I am a bit perplexed by the question from the hon. Member because there has been a consistent pattern of not providing funding in certain areas in the 2013 Budget. The hon. Member should tell us the neighbour he is referring to so that we can give him a proper answer?

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of Estimates 

VOTE 15/22 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – Passport and Citizenship) – K239,753,398.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 253, Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K33,569,021. This allocation has been given to the Eastern Province, but the same activity has not been provided for in the Western Province. What explanation does the hon. Deputy Minister have?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, there was an allocation which was given to the Eastern Province this year for staff welfare, which is similar to what has been allocated in this year’s Budget for the same activity. You will notice that there is not much difference in the two allocations.  Probably, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Probably?

Mr Kampyongo: … the money for that activity will be released next year because it has not been disbursed this year.

Ms Siliya: Mr Chairperson, in an earlier response, the hon. Minister categorically stated that there would be no provision for staff welfare in 2013 … 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Ms Siliya: … because the Government is going to set up a bank for civil servants. That answer seems to be defective because we have seen allocations for the same activity in some provinces.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Further, in the past, it was only the hon. Ministers and hon. Deputy Ministers who got their loans from the revolving funds at the Ministry of Finance because the civil servants in the ministries had this staff welfare initiative through which they got money for things like funerals. Is this staff welfare allocation for 2013 a defect or has the policy of Government changed in terms of this revolving fund? If the policy has changed, I want to be shown where the allocation for the revolving fund is so that I can know how much, exactly, has been aside. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, let me categorically state that most of these funds will go to servicing of salary advances, most of which have already been met. Therefore, there are no loans which are going to be accessed from this fund. We should differentiate that.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 253, Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K33,569,021. It was not clear when the hon. Minister answered on this activity. Could this be a confirmation of what she earlier stated that this document is defective? 

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwaliteta: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order. You ruled on the matter which Hon. Professor Lungwangwa is raising again. Is he in order to continue referring the Budget as being defective when you ruled on that earlier?

The Chairperson: Order!

Actually, I agree with you. That is a pertinent point or order. I had ruled the hon. Deputy Minister out of order then. So, the ruling still stands. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 253, Programme 4001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – K33,569,021. Is the Eastern Province going to benefit from Staff Welfare as well as this revolving fund which we have not seen, since it appears here, but not elsewhere? Can the hon. Minister clarify this because it is not clear.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I think we have responded to this question.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, we said that the revolving funds will still be there. If the Eastern Province is allocated, it is a control.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we are a House that deals with procedures pertaining to the Budget. If you look at page 253, page 254, page 255, and the preceding and subsequent pages, you will note that, under Staff Welfare, in the other departments, there is no provision. It is only provided for in the Eastern Province. Why is the Executive now changing and telling the nation and ourselves that, for the Eastern Province, the workers are in a special category and will be provided under the Budget while the welfare of other workers in the country will be provided for by a bank?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

It is unusual, but circumstances compel me to ask whether the hon. Minister of Finance can assist because, truly, the answer has been that, where Staff Welfare is not shown, the workers will go to the revolving fund. The question is that, in the Eastern Province, Staff Welfare has been provided for. I think that we need clarification on that. Is the hon. Minister of Finance in a position to assist?

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, there has always been a revolving fund from which civil servants, hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament, in some cases, borrow. So, that fund does exist. So, where it is not provided for, specifically in the provinces, they will still have recourse to this revolving fund which exists. The other notion that we would like to clarify is the Civil Service Bank, which will be formed by the civil servants and the Government will just assist. It will not be a Government-funded arrangement and, if the civil servants will not come up with even a modicum of a mechanism on how they are going to put up the bank, it will show you how unresourceful the civil servants are.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Deputy Minister was perplexed. I do not think that there is any reason for her to be, and I think that the hon. Minister of Finance has made it worse. However, does it mean that the civil servants will no longer have the mercy that they have been receiving from the Government, over the years, and will be thrown to the world and fend for themselves?

Lieutenant General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, the position that was earlier given to us by the other hon. Minister is different from that which has been given by the hon. Minister of Finance. Is the Government in order to allow two hon. Ministers to disagree on this Floor of the House without the House adjourning until they have settled this matter?

The Chairperson: I had asked the hon. Minister of Finance to assist and, I think, in his explanation, he had said that there is a revolving fund and, admittedly, he did not address himself to why some provinces, in this case, the Eastern Province, have money under Staff Welfare and whether they were going to also access the revolving fund. That was not addressed and, maybe, as he gives an answer, he should also address this specific aspect of the revolving fund and Staff Welfare. Can the hon. Minister give a clarification on that.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, the Staff Welfare under the Head is not for loans. It can be used for many other purposes.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chikwanda: Let me, again, emphasise that the revolving fund exists from which civil servants can borrow. This facility exists in the Ministry of Finance. When the proposed bank for civil servants has been put together, then, that need will lapse. However, as I have said, the Staff Welfare Fund is used for other things, such as settling-in-allowances. 

With regard to the specific allocation for the Eastern Province, it is a control and … 

Interruptions

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, give us time to come and tell the House something that is really factual. Otherwise, we will just escalate the confusion, which is quite legitimate because the hon. Members of Parliament have not been satisfied with the answers which have been given, so far. I, therefore, seek your indulgence for us to come back to this issue. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that the request by the hon. Minister of Finance is something that I should allow. This means that we will put in abeyance the decision on Head 15/22, which gave rise to the questions. Therefore, we will move on to Vote 15/23 – Ministry of Home Affairs – Luapula Province – Passport and Citizenship –  K154,794,631 . 

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: I, however, notice that this Head also has staff welfare. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I think that, in light of the request by the hon. Minister of Finance and my decision to grant it, I should report to the Hon. Mr Speaker what has transpired.  

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Therefore, the Committee will report progress and ask leave to sit again. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

____ 

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

____

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT 

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to. 

____

The House adjourned at 1944 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 14th November, 2012.