- Home
- About Parliament
- Members
- Committees
- Publications
Wednesday, 28th October, 2020
Wednesday, 28th October, 2020
The House met at 1430 hours
[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
_______
QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER
56 Mr Lufuma (Kabompo) asked the Vice-President:
- when the Government will rehabilitate the following primary schools in Kabompo Parliamentary Constituency whose roofs were blown off by a thunderstorm on Wednesday, 14th October, 2020:
- Chikokwelo; and
- Kakovongo; and
b. what urgent measures are being taken to ensure that the school programmes are not disrupted.
The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mrs Mwansa): Madam Speaker, the regional co-ordinator and the Disaster Management Committee (DMC) are currently undertaking the rapid assessment of all the damage caused by heavy rains on 14th October, 2020, with the view to recommend interventions to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) once the assessment report and the Bill of Quantities (BOQ) are submitted. My office will work towards addressing the concern.
Madam, the school programmes have not been interrupted as measures have been put in place, a part of which includes using the temporary structures to accommodate the affected learners.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, we appreciate that the personnel at district level are trying to gather the necessary Bill of Quantities so that they can be sent to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) for execution. The roofs were blown off on 14th October, 2020. Since this has taken long, when does the hon. Minister envisage assistance will be sent to these schools so that they can immediately start reconstructing the blown off roofs?
Mrs Mwansa: Madam Speaker, immediately we receive the Bill of Quantities (BOQ) from the District Disaster Management office, we will make plans to buy all the requirements so that we rehabilitate the schools.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
_______
MOTION
CENSURE HON. B. C. LUSAMBO, MP – MINISTER FOR LUSAKA PROVINCE
Mr Kakubo (Kapiri Mposhi): Madam Speaker, this afternoon, I wish to present to the House a Motion which borders on the rights and freedoms of our people, which are too often denied by the Patriotic Front (PF).
Madam Speaker, since the commissioning of this House, at the beginning of winter in 1967 –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
Move the Motion first so that we start the process.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I beg to move.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what do you beg to move? There is a Motion on the Order Paper which is to be moved by yourself.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I apologise for that.
Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House moves to censure Hon. Bowman Lusambo because the House is dissatisfied with his conduct.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, do you have the Motion or the Order Paper? The Motion is on the Order Paper.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House, being dissatisfied with the conduct of Hon. Bowman Chilosha Lusambo, MP, Minister for Lusaka Province, and in accordance with Article 87 of the Constitution of Zambia, as read with Standing Order 175 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2016, the Hon. Minister for Lusaka Province be censured for the following reasons:
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kapiri-Mposhi, you wish to move the Motion, and the Motion is what you have now on the Order Paper. Could you read it.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, from what I have seen on the Order Paper, I have moved the Motion. Unless I need further guidance, I have read it through.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, it is your Motion. I do not want to move it for you. Have you moved it or you intend to move a Motion, which is on the Order Paper and it clearly states what you want to say? So, if you are not ready to move it, indicate as such.
Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, resume your seat.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the guidance. I am finally ready.
Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House, being dissatisfied with the conduct of Hon. Bowman Chilosha Lusambo, MP, Minister for Lusaka Province, and in accordance with Article 87 of the Constitution of Zambia, as read with Standing Order 175 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2016, the Hon Minister for Lusaka Province be censured for the following reasons:
(a) that, at the press briefing held at his office on Wednesday, 3rd June, 2020, the hon. Minister used unpalatable language when he referred to the youths who were expressing their opinions on governance issues as disgruntled and that their expression of opinions was an act of stupidity and stinking nonsense; and
(b) that, at the same press briefing, the hon. Minister ordered the said youths to stop expressing their opinions forthwith, warning them that they were “too naked to misbehave”.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?
Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, before I pose the question, I wish to inform the House that a Motion of Censure is provided for under the Constitution of Zambia. The procedure for passing a Motion of Censure is provided for in Article 87 of the Constitution of Zambia, which states as follows:
“87. (1) The National Assembly may censure a Minister or Provincial Minister here the Members of Parliament are dissatisfied with the conduct or performance of the Minister or Provincial Minister.
(2) The proceedings to censure a Minister or Provincial Minister shall be commenced by a notice of motion, submitted to the Speaker, signed by at least one-third of the Members of Parliament, stating the grounds in support of the Motion.
(3) The Speaker shall, on receipt of the notice of Motion submitted in accordance with clause (2), cause a copy of the notice of motion to be given to the Minister or Provincial Minister.
(4) The notice of motion to censure a Minister or Provincial Minister shall not be debated until after the expiry of seven days from the date the notice of motion is submitted to the Speaker.
(5) The National Assembly may pass a vote of censure on a Minister or Provincial Minister by resolution supported by two-thirds of the votes of the Members of Parliament.”
Hon. Members, I wish to confirm that the provisions in Article 87 on tabling a Notice of Motion to Censure a Minister or Provincial Minister –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Members on my right!
Hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, I am on my feet.
Hon. Members, I wish to confirm that the provisions in Article 87, on tabling a Notice of Motion to Censure a Minister or Provincial Minister have all been complied with.
Mr Kakubo (Kapiri Mposhi): Madam Speaker, this Motion touches the core of civil rights and their existence for the people of Zambia. These rights have consistently been denied by the Patriotic Front (PF).
Madam Speaker, the House may wish to know that since the commissioning of this Parliament in the winter of 1967, this Chamber has witnessed the swearing-in of hon. Members of Parliament. Consequently, it has hosted Presidents and Bills have been passed into law. This House has also witnessed the censuring of erring members of the public who have put the decorum of this House into disrepute.
Madam Speaker, I want to be quick to also mention that never at all in the history of our Parliament has any Motion been brought to the Floor to censure an hon. Minister.
Madam Speaker, we are dealing with a novel situation on our hands. It is one which will set precedence for the Zambian Parliament as well as influence not only the present, but also the future as regards how we shall move our country forward, as politicians.
Madam Speaker, further, this Motion serves as a litmus test for the PF Government. It will test whether it has any intention whatsoever to guarantee the freedoms of the youth of this country and generally the citizens.
Madam Speaker, for the benefit of the House, I would like to refer to what the hon. Minister said and quote a few exact parts from his speech on 3rd June, 2020, in his office. In an apparent address to the youth, he said the following:
“You cannot start demeaning the Office of the President. Those of us who have trust in the President are not going to sit back and enjoy your nonsense. We want to urge you to stop and to stop it now. We cannot go on like this. What you are saying is stinking nonsense. I want to urge Kings Malembe Malembe and B’Flow that you must desist from bringing the name of the President into disrepute. This is stupidity of the highest order.”
Madam Speaker, this House urged the hon. Minister to write to Parliament and explain why he used such unpalatable language. In his response, the hon. Minister stated, in his poorly crafted excuse, that the only reason he addressed those youths like that was because he knew them personally.
Madam Speaker, the question I am asking this afternoon is that: Does the hon. Minister have the right to gag any citizen because he knows him/her personally?
Madam Speaker, according to me, this is a constitutional issue because the Bill of Rights states very clearly that every man and woman in this country has a right to an opinion, has the freedom of speech and has the right to express how he/she feels.
Madam Speaker, the two musicians whom the hon. Minister addressed are, first of all, citizens of this country. When musicians sing, they do not sing to themselves, but to the general public. Consequently, when they address the media, they speak on behalf of the masses that follow them. Therefore, the hon. Minister’s action to call out those two youths and practically putting a cloth in their mouth so that they keep quiet and not address the President is an act of gagging the public.
Madam Speaker, as young men and women in this country, we will neither allow Hon. Bowman Lusambo nor any other hon. Minister for that matter to gag the youth. There are certain rights that are God given such as the freedom of conscious and the freedom of expression. Therefore, this Parliament must not entertain Hon. Bowman Lusambo and allow him to go scot-free.
Madam Speaker, you noticed in my dispensation that the hon. Minister called out the youth, as being disgruntled. To be disgruntled is to be dissatisfied and to be angry. Therefore, I find it very ironic that the same hon. Ministers who have mastered the art of causing untold misery on the Zambian youth are the ones calling them disgruntled. Yes, the youth are disgruntled because they are confronted with a Government that has no plan, whatsoever, to provide jobs.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the youth are disgruntled –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member, let me guide you. Your Motion is to censure one hon. Minister and not all of them. Speak to your Motion.
You may proceed.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I am most obliged. The point I was driving at is that I find it ironic that Hon. Bowman Lusambo would be the one to stand up and say that the youth in this country are disgruntled. As an hon. Minister, he is responsible for policy that should stop the youths from feeling disgruntled.
My point also is that the youth are disgruntled. All I was saying was that to be disgruntled is to be angry and dissatisfied with the status quo. Who is not going to be disgruntled if jobs are not provided? It is the same hon. Minister who, in his utterances, takes away the right of our people to speak against the Government and the Presidency. Yes, the youth are disgruntled, and the hon. Minister is one of the people who have caused them to be that way.
Madam Speaker, this hon. Minister, Mr Bowman Lusambo, is a serial offender.
Laughter
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the House may wish to know that at the onset of the Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) cases in this country, Hon. Bowman Lusambo took the law into his own hands.
Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Madam.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member. Let me guide you.
Hon. Deputy Chief Whip, resume your seat.
Hon. Kakubo, you have moved a Motion and therein specific issues. In a way, you are complaining. You have specified what was said at a press conference. Arising from this Motion, I expect you to expand your debate, but not to go outside the Motion. You have ten minutes, but if you bring in other issues, you will be going away from the Motion. So, come back to the Motion, state your issues and complaints and, then, we let other people debate also.
You may proceed, hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, I am much obliged. I am trying to lobby for a censure and the point I was trying to drive at before you guided was that Hon. Bowman Lusambo is a serial offender against the youth of this country. In that regard, I was trying to substantiate this assertion by saying that when the first three cases of COVID-19 where reported in this country, the hon. Minister is on record as having taken the law into his own hands. He went on to whip the youth in this country.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi, you have three minutes left. Let me guide you again. You have a Motion which is very clear. In that Motion, you are complaining of some words that the hon. Minister uttered and are here already to ask hon. Members to support it. The hon. Minister for Lusaka Province will also be given a chance to speak. We do not expect him to speak away from this Motion. He will speak within the Motion and in accordance with the provisions of the Standing Orders. So, when you now start to have a cross-country debate, you bring in issues over which the hon. Minister is not before the House for censure. Your Motion is very clear and you have three minutes and twenty-two seconds left.
You may proceed.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister, Mr Bowman Lusambo, is unrepentant in his actions, but as guided, I will not provide further examples except to say that the Government needs to realise that the young people in this country have chosen to hold their country to a much higher standard than what it is taking them through. We will not, for a second, whether with the support of Parliament or not, accept to be gagged by any Government.
Madam Speaker, just four days ago, this country was commemorating Independence Day. The scars in the spirit of this country are still clear and there is no way we, as young people, can fail to repay that debt of gratitude to those who died fighting for our freedoms. He does not have a choice regardless of what action the House takes. The message from the youth from all over the country is very simple and straight forward.
Hon. PF Member: Are you a youth, iwe?
Mr Kakubo: If they choose to arrest the youth because of the act of trying to demonstrate, we can take that. The young people in this country are ready to fill up every jail cell in this country, if that is what it takes for them to be free.
Interruptions
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, it does not matter. There is no way an hon. Minister can speak like this a few months before an election.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order in the House!
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, this year is a year for politics. We cannot have an hon. Minister gagging the youth. As young people in the country, we are ready for next year because it is the year of the ballot and the Government is on the line.
Madam Speaker, like I mentioned in my preamble, the litmus test here is that we are going to define the relationship between themselves, as hon. Ministers, or between Hon. Bowman Lusambo and his Government and the youth. This is what is on the line. How our colleagues shall display themselves towards the youth today is what is on the line. Our relationship is being redefined and we are defiant in our approach. We will not relent because we have a future to uphold.
Madam Speaker, in the last minute, I also just want to assure all the young people across the country regardless of which political party they belong to that the United Party for National Development (UPND) is committed, under the stewardship of President Hichilema, ...
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kakubo: ... to respect the rule of law, as a matter of priority, and prioritise the rights of our people, men, women, girls and boys. They should mark my words on this one.
Madam Speaker, I beg to move.
Hon. Katuta: What a shame!
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?
Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, now.
Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for according me the opportunity to second the Motion of Censure of Mr Bowman Lusambo, hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi and Minister for Lusaka Province.
Madam Speaker, before I delve into my debate of seconding the Motion, I wish to state that the freedom of expression is enshrined in the Republican Constitution. For the record, I wish to state clearly on the Floor of this House that freedom of expression is obviously neither stupidity nor stinking nonsense, as expressed by the hon. Minister. It is for that reason that the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi rose to move this Motion to censure the hon. Minister, which I am seconding on the Floor of this House.
Madam Speaker, obviously, the reasons the said youth expressed their views are very clear and in public domain. The youth in the country have been disadvantaged in many ways. It all boils down to how they are living currently. We should ask ourselves how they reached the level of voicing out. If they never did in the past, but came out now in the open to express their views on how this country is being governed, the leadership can only introspect to see why they expressed themselves that way unlike what we are debating this afternoon where youths are now considered to be stupid and whatever they say to claim good governance from your right hand side actually sent to the dust bin and threats poured on them with expressions such as, “they are naked.”
Madam Speaker, these empty threats or veiled threats, if you like, are causing even our own law enforcement agencies to come in and, sometimes, arrest these youth without cause. We know that whatever leaders speak is policy. Being a leader and an hon. Minister, what Hon. Bowman Lusambo says is policy and is bound to be misinterpreted or interpreted in a way that seems to suggest that the youth are actually at variance with the laws of the land by expressing their opinions. It is for this reason that I would like to urge the hon. Minister for Lusaka Province to watch his statements when it comes to giving advice in this regard.
Madam Speaker, it is very important to also apologise to these youths and show leadership so that they see the seriousness of the Patriotic Front (PF), as they govern. As it stands, this Motion of censure clearly demonstrates that we have a problem within the PF. What needs to be resolved is this impasse that has existed between the leadership and the youths of this country.
Madam, the youths of this country are demanding good life. Good life comes from a well-managed economy. A well-managed economy will enhance employment. It is from employment that the youths will have better lives. However, this is what the PF Government has not provided and, therefore, it is not in order for hon. Minister to call the youths stupid and disgruntled when they express their views over the problems that they are facing as a result of this bad governance.
Madam Speaker, with these few words, I wish to thank the Office of the Clerk for processing this Motion and your office for allowing us to table this Motion on the Floor of this House to teach our colleagues on your right a few lessons of how the prevailing mood in the country regarding gagging people’s opinions.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, as I indicated earlier, this Motion is unprecedented. However, the rules are very clear. It is a Motion except that it is a Motion of censure. The hon. Minister is going to speak last. Those who are for the Motion will give reasons they feel that the hon. Minster should be censured. Those against the Motion will also give reasons they think the hon. Minister should not be censured. So, it should be a very orderly debate. We will now proceed.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): I need your guidance.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, do you want to ask about procedure?
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I want for us to debate properly.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, take your seat. I think I have been very clear, but you can seek further guidance through the Clerk. Just write a note and she will communicate to me. Leader of the Opposition and Member of Parliament for Monze Central, I have guided and I want us to proceed in an orderly manner. We have had the mover and the seconder from the left. I will now move to the right and ask the hon. Minister for the Eastern Province to also debate.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, resume your seat. I think I have been very clear, but you can seek further guidance through the Clerk. Just write a note and she will communicate to me.
Leader of the Opposition and Member of Parliament for Monze Central, I have guided and I want us to proceed in an orderly manner. We have had the mover and the seconder from the left. I will now move to the right and ask the hon. Minister for Eastern Province to also debate.
The Minister for Eastern Province (Mr M. Zulu): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I was very curious to hear what the debate regarding this Motion was about. The Motion, as it appears, was clothed with generalities. However, upon giving further and better particulars and the specifics of this particular Motion, the mover of the Motion isolated two persons. It is, thus, my view that the Motion is misleading in so far as it relates to all the youths when the particulars of the Motion are only referring to two persons, namely Kings Malembe Malembe and B’Flow.
Madam Speaker, in this particular case, if those are the persons who are being refereed to, let us exclude all the youths. In so doing, you will note that for Kings Malembe Malembe, he publicly apologised. B’Flow reconciled with the hon. Minister. The misunderstanding was taken care of. What the mover of the Motion seeks to give with one hand, he wants to take away with other.
Madam, he gives the freedom of expression to the two persons who, by the way, are not youths but, perhaps, young people and he wants to take away that very freedom of expression from the hon. Minister. In as much as he may not have liked what the hon. Minister could have said and may not have agreed with the words that he may have used, I respect his right to say whatever he has to say because he also has the right to freedom of expression.
Madam, the freedom of expression is not limited to the person who speaks first. It also extends to the person who speaks afterwards. As a matter of fact, no one was gagged in this particular case. Even after the hon. Minister said what he said, B’Flow and Kings Malembe Malembe responded. So, it is not all the youths that should be referred to, but the two persons. Let us learn to isolate those.
Madam, whereas the mover of the Motion himself complains that the hon. Minister referred to the youths as disgruntled, I am using the word ‘youths’ loosely because he wants this Motion to refer to the youth generally when the hon. Minister did not refer to the youth generally, he, then, goes ahead to admit that the youths are disgruntled. What sort of Motion is that? What is unpalatable about something that you seem to agree with? It defies all logic and it should not even grace the Floor of this House. If it is the first Motion of censure, it should have been something that should have contained substance.
Madam Speaker, what I would move to censure is one political leader who stood on a platform and insulted people in a particular region.
Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Zulu: Madam Speaker, that is the person who should be censured because those words were really unpalatable. They cannot be defined in any other way –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon, Minister for the Eastern Province, move back to the Motion.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Minister, resume your seat.
Hon. Member for Kabompo, I do not expect that from a senior hon. Member of the House.
Hon. Minister for the Eastern Province, proceed.
Mr Zulu: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I was trying to state that what would be unpalatable would be what may be classified as insults. Things that are generally unacceptable by society and examples abound. I gave an example of one leader who stood on the platform, campaigning –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, you gave that example already. Could you get back to the Motion.
Interruptions
Mr Zulu: Madam Speaker, my flow was disturbed and I would like to recast, and in doing so, I would say those words that were said, even in the hearing of the chief, who was nearby, insulting a whole region of the particular ethnic group, was certainly not something that we could call palatable. Those are things that we should be talking about. Where is this country going to? What kind of leadership do we want? Certainly, not the kind of leadership that issues unpalatables. What the hon. Minister said cannot be classified as unpalatable.
Madam Speaker, it may not be agreeable with them, but certainly not unpalatable because we are taking it in. The two persons who were referred to took it in and responded. However, we are incapable of responding, on the Floor of this House or anywhere else for that matter, to what that particular leader said. This gentleman here is innocent of what has been alleged against him.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Speaker, as you rightly guided, this Motion complied with all the tenets required for moving a Motion.
Mr Ngulube: Question!
Mr Mwiimbu: So, it is improper for anybody to question your authority for having allowed this Motion on the Floor of this House.
Madam Speaker, when all of us here came to be sworn in as hon. Members of Parliament, we also swore to defend the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Anyone who does not oblige to the articles of the Constitution has violated the Constitution of Zambia. This is exactly what Hon. Lusambo did. He contravened Article 20 of the Constitution of Zambia …
Hon. PF Members: Question!
Mr Mwiimbu: … by violating the rights of the youths who were expressing their opinions on the governance of this country.
Madam Speaker, I have heard the defence, which was made by my learned colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Malambo, in which he said the language that was used by Hon. Lusambo is palatable and can be used anywhere. I doubt whether you will allow me to use those words here against anybody. That just shows that those words are unacceptable and are an affront to the rights of citizens in this country.
Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister giving an example of a statement that was made somewhere. There was an example that was given pertaining to the violation of the rights of individuals, and that example was allowed on the Floor of this House. Therefore, I would also like to bring to your attention that the hon. Minister of Information, in the Eastern Province, uttered statements that are an affront to this country, which should not be allowed. I would like to quote from the Diggers Newspaper, which I will lay –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Leader of the Opposition in the House, resume your seat.
Prof. Luo: Debate the Motion!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let me tell you …
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: … why I allowed that example. I allowed it because there was no mention of anyone. Earlier in my guidance, I indicated to you that there is only one hon. Minister who is before this House for censure and that you, as hon. Members of Parliament, have to make the decision whether to censure him. Therefore, I do not expect you to bring in any other hon. Ministers because the Motion is very clear.
Leader of the Opposition in the House and hon. Member for Monze Central, you have enough meat to use for your debate in the Motion.
Continue with your debate.
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I am not going to mention any individual, but I will give examples.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, here is a person outside this House who utters a statement against the Bembas and against the former President of the Republic of Zambia, the late Michael Chilufya Sata, by stating that the Bembas do not know how to use fertiliser …
Mr Ngulube: On a point of order!
Mr Mwiimbu: … and that is why agriculture in our country has failed. That is an example that I am giving.
Mr Sikazwe: Chimbuya!
Mr Mwiimbu: I am told it is Chimbuya.
Mr Sikazwe: Chimbuya icho!
Mr Mwiimbu: Further, one of the examples I want to give is where somebody says that actually the Tongas have risen against us and they should not be allowed to rule this country.
Madam Speaker, these are statements that are against the Constitution and are similar to those made by Hon. Lusambo.
Hon. PF Members: Ah!
Mr Mwiimbu: It is an abrogation of the Constitution of Zambia.
Hon. PF Member: Tata namuluba!
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I hear that there is no apology on the abrogation of the Constitution of Zambia, on the part of the Executive, through Hon. Lusambo. The two youths were victimised, humiliated and made to apologise. However, the abrogation of the Constitution of Zambia does not only affect the youths, but also all of us. Unless my colleagues on your right are telling the nation that abrogation of the Constitution of Zambia is okay with them, anyone who abrogates the Constitution must be held accountable. Are they telling us now that since there was an amicable solution, there was no abrogation of the Constitution? Is that case? Are they telling us that the gagging and the threats that were made against these two youths is not an abrogation of the Constitution of Zambia and that they are going to continue abusing the rights of Zambians because they are in the Government and have the right to call these people because they are vulnerable and coerce them to agree with them? Does that not amount to abrogating the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia? All of us here are accountable to the people of Zambia.
Madam Speaker, when we swear before you, we swear to protect the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Hon. Lusambo deliberately decided to abrogate the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. When you go against the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, there are consequences. Today, we have a situation whereby there is a Motion of Censure. A Motion of Censure is to meant to censure somebody who has abrogated. That is why the mover of the Motion has brought it here so that Hon. Lusambo can be remorseful. He should repent and apologise …
Mr Ngulube: Question!
Mr Mwiimbu: … to the nation for abrogating the Constitution of Zambia. If you want to use the arrogance of numbers, we will tell the nation that here is a Government that has the propensity to abrogate the Constitution of Zambia and get away with it because it has the numbers.
Mr Ngulube: Just tell them!
Mr Mwiimbu: I do not think that is what we want.
With these few remarks, I support the Motion whole heartedly whether we lose or not because we stand on the right side of the law.
We support the Motion moved by Hon. Kakubo.
I thank you.
Mr Ngulube: You have two more minutes in which to finish your debate.
Laughter
Madam First Deputy Speaker: He does not have to use up the entire time.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: Let me use up my time.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, no!
Take your seat. You have already finished your debate.
Mr Nakacinda (Nominated): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Motion. From the beginning, I want to state that I do not support this Motion because there is actually no Motion to talk about.
Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!
Mr Nakacinda: Madam, when you see those supporting this Motion speaking as though they have water in their mouths, ...
Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, no!
Mr Nakacinda: … it just goes to show that –
Laughter
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Nakacinda, I will ask you to withdraw that statement you have made.
Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, I withdraw –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Let me explain why you must withdraw. This Motion is properly before the House. It is now your duty to debate, vote for or against it. In doing so, you have to debate with respect for others; those who may be of the opposing view. You do not have to disparage them so to speak.
So, proceed with your debate.
Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, respectfully, I withdraw the words, “they are speaking as though they have water in their mouths” and I replace that with the fact that they are struggling to make points to support a Motion that should not even have been brought on the Floor of the House.
Madam Speaker, I thought this Motion was going to be a Motion of Censure against the United Party for National Development (UPND) President, who as it has already been said –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on both sides of the House!
Let me guide, again. Hon. Members, the Motion is for you to either support or not to support. In doing so, there is no need to bring in people who are not able to defend themselves. As I said, the Motion is clear. It is a Motion of Censure, to censure the hon. Minister for Lusaka Province. Let us have an orderly debate.
Proceed, Hon. Nakacinda.
Mr Nakacinda: Madam Speaker, I do not support the Motion because there is no justification to consider censuring the hon. Minister of Lusaka Province for the utterances that have been referred to. What needed to be censured is what the people of Zambia were subjected to in Kasama during the Lukashya by-election. The utterances were not only unpalatable, but also abominable. I expected someone to apologise on the Floor of this House, on behalf of the one who said those things in Lukashya, then, that would have been a reasonable way to approach the issue that we are debating.
Madam Speaker, as it is said, he who comes into equity must come with clean hands. You cannot ignore abominable utterances in your own club and try to turn things that are said in good faith to be unpalatable. In the Motion, the word ‘stupid’ has been identified to be unpalatable and I had to get a dictionary to understand its meaning. In other words, stupid means foolish and foolish means lack of understanding. The other word that was referred to is ‘nonsense’, which means it does not make sense. So, while these words may not be parliamentary, the true meaning of these words is that somebody lacks understanding and that what he said did not make sense. So, why should the hon. Minister be censured for telling his young brothers that they spoke from a point of lack of understanding of what they were talking about and that they did not make sense and, therefore, they should not have talked in that regard? The hon. Minister was describing what they were talking about. To that effect, I laughed to hear that there could be a Motion to try to censure somebody for speaking to his young brothers. Some people have not been disciplined before in their lives, and that is how come we have spoiled young people who continue calling themselves youths even when they have grown. This is as a result of a lack of discipline as they were growing.
Madam Speaker, we have grown with the word ‘stupid.’ When you misbehave in your home, your mother will tell you in Bemba that “kutumpa uko”. In Nyanja, she will say that “nikupusa uko” and in Tonga, “mbuyanga obu.” So, you can say the word ‘stupid’ to your child or young brother. I think the hon. Minister had the right to correct his young brothers, having had a relationship with the two. Therefore, we cannot attempt to censure somebody who was talking to his two young brothers, who were even willing to apologise. They followed him to Kabushi in Ndola and had dinner and lunch with him to broadcast the fact that they still remain brothers and, therefore, accepted his correction and will do better in future.
Madam Speaker, with those few words, I think it is shameful for anybody to think that such a Motion should be supported. Therefore, I do not support this Motion.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to say a few words on this Motion.
Madam Speaker, Proverbs Chapter 17 verse 25 says that a foolish child is a shame to the parents.
Madam Speaker, the people given the authority to rule the nation must show exemplary leadership when they speak. Therefore, when one speaks as a leader, he or she should use palatable language because he or she does not speak as an ordinary person. When my colleague, Hon. Lusambo uttered those words on television, I called him and told him that he had actually embarrassed his father. He knows that. I told him that he was no longer just Bowman Lusambo, but an hon. Minister. I told him to move away from the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) diehard that he was, because he is now an hon. Minister in the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, old habits die hard. If Hon. Lusambo is still MMD, he should now become PF instead of disgracing the President who appointed him. He must know that he is an hon. Minister in the PF Government and that when he speaks, he speaks as an appointee of the President. So, by speaking the way he did, he actually embarrassed the President who appointed him, as the Bible says.
Madam Speaker, Hon. Lusambo should know that when he speaks, he speaks as a leader. Although someone said that he was talking to his colleagues, he should have instead called them. I do not expect any learned colleague to come here and talk about friendships when someone spoke in his capacity as an hon. Minister. You must be able to call the person you call a friend if he is your friend. As the hon. Minister for Lusaka Province, you cannot use unpalatable language on Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) television and then say that you were talking to your friends whom you dine with. For a lack of a better term, that is foolishness.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Withdraw that.
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, people must know that –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Withdraw the word ‘foolishness.’
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘foolishness.’ However, what I am trying to say is that the PF inherited some people from the MMD and they want to use the language they used in 2010, like the way Hon. Lusambo did. Therefore, he must be censured so that he knows that what he said is not correct. The true PF know that what he said was wrong.
So, you, Bowman Lusambo must be censured.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: The correct address is Hon. Bowman Lusambo.
Interruptions
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, as an hon. Minister, he should never use the words that he used in public. So, in view of the words that he used, he is supposed to be censured because he is disgracing the Government, and this Government does not only represent him, but all of us, as Zambians.
As Zambians, how can we have such hon. Ministers? The hon. Ministers that the President is appointing are embarrassing us. What a disgrace.
Madam Speaker, the words that Bowman Lusambo used –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Address him as the hon. Minister.
Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, if I was to describe the words that Hon. Lusambo used, I would say that they were dishonourable and those words should not be used by an hon. Minister. As a Member of Parliament, I am not supposed to use such words. So, what more an hon. Minister, who is a leader and represents us everywhere in the world?
Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister must never use such words, and must, therefore, be censured for what he said. If he had any dispute with those people, he should have called them and talked to them. So, I urge Hon. Bowman Lusambo to desist from the old MMD way of beating up ba Kachingwe. He must desist from such things ...
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Jamba: ... and should improve.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I will be very brief today.
Madam Speaker, first of all, allow me to state that the Motion on the Floor came in as Brought-in-Dead (BiD). No reasonable hon. Member of Parliament can support such a Motion. In fact, it is an extension of hatred and bitterness. My brother, Hon. Zulu, stated that the Motion itself is –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: First of all, hon. Deputy Chief Whip, withdraw the word ‘bitterness’.
Hon. Members, you know that any one of you can use this avenue. I have said before that the hallmark of good leadership is to sit while things are being said, and that some of those things may not be appealing to you. You may not like them, but they have to be said anyway because an opportunity has provided itself for those things to be said, as long as they are said within the rules. I heard complaints over the term ‘BiD’ and why I allowed it. I have heard the term ‘BiD’ from both sides of the House before. So, hon. Members, let us not create disorder. Let us proceed and dispense this Motion.
Hon. Deputy Chief Whip, you said you would be brief, proceed.
Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, this Motion has failed to stand the test upon which it can be supported. The mover of the Motion attempted to define human rights in a very broad context, but fell short of understanding that where somebody’s rights begin, another person’s rights end. Today, we cannot use two individuals, so-called youths, to generalise the Motion and say that Hon. Bowman Lusambo talked about the young persons in the entire country. We do not want to say that, and we will not allow anyone to create that impression.
Madam Speaker, I am aware that the mover of the Motion has critically failed to analyse his Motion. He agrees that the young people are disgruntled, and the definition of disgruntled in the Oxford Dictionary of English is an angry and dissatisfied person. So, when I say someone is disgruntled, it is not an insult, at least, for those of us who studied English at the University of Zambia (UNZA).
Madam Speaker, I know that a political party somewhere was very happy when it saw disgruntled youths trying to show that they wanted to rise against the Government, insulting the President and the Patriotic Front (PF), and threatening to demonstrate. A political party thought its time to rule had come, but alas, the same people the party was celebrating later went to the media and said they were sorry and were just being used. So, I want to remind that political party that it is not about the youths it is using, but about respect for humanity.
Madam, there is politician somewhere who has the guts to stand in public and insult a certain entire province.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Withdraw the word ‘guts.’
Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘guts’ and replace it with ‘misconduct’. Somebody I know has the propensity of insulting in public at rallies, but we have never heard people complain. Therefore, to stand up today and say that let us censure the hon. Minister of Lusaka Province because two youths, both of whom went to plead with him and said that what he said was true, will just be an academic exercise and a sheer waste of valuable resources and time.
Madam Speaker, I am aware that the youths in Zambia are currently disgruntled because they are not getting the answers about privatisation. We are not getting the answers that we want. When is this person going to pay back to the people of Zambia? Why did this person not declare interest? He made himself rich and there are currently no jobs. The poor young people of this country would have found the country richer than it is. However, because of one man, whose name I have not mentioned –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Debate the Motion.
Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition made reference to a statement which I will not repeat, but I just want to remind him one thing. We expected him to come to this House to apologise on behalf of his political party. As Leader of the Opposition, he should have come to say, “What my president said in Lukashya or wherever was shameful. I am sorry.” That is what he should have done. The double standards that people are trying to employ –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Ngulube: He insulted.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order in the House!
Proceed, you have thirty seconds.
Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, in my thirty seconds, I wish the outgoing hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central all the best as Hon. Bumba Phandwe is coming to Parliament next year. I also want to say –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
The hon. Member’s time expired.
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, I want to start by saying that I totally support the Motion to censure the Minister of Lusaka Province, Hon. Bowman Lusambo.
Madam Speaker, let me start by addressing my colleague, Hon. Lusambo. I wish to remind him that the positions that we all have are those of servitude rather than of masters. We are who we are because people got up to favour us to represent them. I have heard some arguments, which are frivolous, that the hon. Minister made reference to only two youths. I want to remind the House that, not long ago, a young boy by the name of Daev, a musician, died and I have never seen such a big funeral in my whole life. What I am trying to say is that Mr B’Flow and Mr Kings Malembe Malembe have a constituency that is probably bigger than all of us put together.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Nkombo: What do I mean?
Hon. Lusambo, I am trying to tell you that there is wisdom in acknowledging that wrong is wrong and right is right. Do not be influenced by peer pressure. There is wisdom to be contrite when you know in your heart of hearts that you erred. You should always remember that that is part of growing up and gaining wisdom. If anybody made a script for you to try and outshine yourself –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member, debate through the Chair.
Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am addressing Hon. Lusambo through the Chair.
If anybody wrote a script on his behalf to look good this afternoon, he should just know that the court of public opinion is greater than the court that he is dealing with here. If I were the hon. Minister, I would simply be brave and say, “I offended. I seek your forgiveness. It will not happen again.” That is what leadership is all about. We are also told in the Bible that everybody has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Madam, I believe my mother sitting in front of you there, the Leader of Government Business in the House, and the hon. Minister of National Guidance and Religious Affairs must have spoken to you, my brother and friend, about the things that you said, especially about the word ‘stinking’. Stinking represents an odour or offensive smell. That is what you referred your friends, as you refer to them, Kings Malembe Malembe and B’Flow. Kings Malembe Malembe willingly apologised to you, but B’Flow was cowered into apologising to you. I need you to –
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: Can you shut up, somebody –
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Nkombo: You are not protecting me –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Mr Nkombo: You are letting them talk while I am talking –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Take your seat, hon. Member.
Mr Nkombo: They must learn that when they talked, I listened .
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my right!
Take your seat, hon. Member for Mazabuka Central. This is the problem. When the presiding officer says that you should speak through the Chair and you disregard that guidance, you are attracting a response from the other side because you are trying to address your hon. Colleagues directly. So, address the Chair and through the Chair, you address them. However, you cannot expect them to keep quiet when you are speaking to them like that and pointing at them. Speak through the Chair and they will still get the message.
Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, please, debate through the Chair.
Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, through you, I am addressing Hon. Lusambo, whom I am glad is listening, but there is a greenhorn who is making noise and I do not mind.
So, Madam Speaker, I want Hon. Lusambo to know that as a result of his statement that percolated a lot of anxiety in the country, we have people in his party calling us rats and they are going scot-free. We have people in Hon. Lusambo’s party, and I am addressing him through Madam Chair, calling us cockroaches and you are quiet. All of you on that side are quiet. This is as a result of reckless statements such as the one made by Hon. Lusambo.
Madam Speaker, I want to repeat what I said to my younger brother, Hon. Bowman Lusambo. There is nothing wrong with apologising. Do not be driven by egocentric people. When you are caught napping on a mistake, call it as such. Simply say, “I made a mistake. It will not happen again.” I can tell you that you will fly higher in your political career than if you buried your head in the sand and say that you never offended anyone. All of us have offended someone in one way or another but here we are.
Madam Speaker, I want to give you an example. If today, I decided to bring a Motion of Censure on the former hon. Minister of General Education, who was parading his birth suit around, these people on your right would support him. That is what it means.
Madam, what I am saying here is that right is right and wrong is wrong. This is not a partisan matter. So, Hon. Lusambo, lift your head high. There is nothing to lose, my dear friend, because ‘sorry’ is a magic word. So simply say, “I am sorry.” I can tell you that you will earn more respect, double than you have ever earned in your whole life.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak on this Motion. First and foremost, I would like to appreciate Hon. Lusambo for the way he interacts with the youths of this country. I appreciate him for the time that he has for many vulnerable youths who come to his office. That is as it should be. I am also encouraged to note that the two men, not youths, but men, mentioned here are your close friends. You had time together and addressed this matter. At this particular time, I would also want to thank our hon. Minister for the Eastern Province for having candidly stated the facts as they are, and I take his words as my own.
Madam Speaker, the United Party for National Development (UPND) should be able to learn something from that and know that cleaning should start in its own house. You can even hear the way the hon. UPND Members are talking. They are rumbling –
Laughter
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, this Motion is by an hon. Member of Parliament who is representing Kapiri-Mposhi.
Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your guidance.
Madam Speaker, as Hon. Lusambo meets the youths of this country, he should take time to tell them that through, the Constitution Amendment Bill No. 10 of 2019, we, in the Patriotic Front (PF), and well-meaning Zambians would want them not to speak outside Parliament, but to come into Parliament, and this is what we are fighting for tomorrow. So, he should ensure to assure our Zambian youths about this Bill. In fact, I will also send him with a message to our Zambian women and the disabled that through mixed member representation, we want them in this House. I hope the “hear, hear” I am hearing is from the UPND.
Laughter
Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister interacts with so many youths, as they throng him the way they do when he is on the Copperbelt and in Lusaka on Cairo Road, he should tell them that he will find time to talk to one leader from the Opposition to stop insulting people when he is addressing a rally. He should not be using insele shapa kufi. We should not allow insele shapa mutoto. UPND, stop it.
Laughter
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Translate what you have just said.
Dr Malama: Well, Madam Speaker, from the time I was a young, my father and mother told me never to use this word. So, the word the UPND leader used somewhere, I cannot repeat it, not in this House or even outside this House.
Mr Mwiimbu: Is biology an insult?
Dr Malama: The Leader of the Opposition is calling it biology.
Laughter
Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, as Hon. Lusambo interacts with the young people, he should let them know that the word that was used by one hon. Member from the Opposition, the word ‘idiot’, on a fellow hon. Member, should not be used. There was no apology –
Interruptions
Dr Malama: Yes, I know you are quiet now.
Hon. Minister, I would like hon. Lusambo, as he addresses the young people, to let them know about what you see when you sit closely with our President. In our President, you see humility, honesty, compassion, integrity, confidence and flexibility. So, he should ensure that those hallmarks are transmitted to the young people of our country and also to the UPND. The UPND is itching to come into power, but our friends should learn those traits and not use insulting words because Zambians do not like that.
Interruptions
Dr Malama: Like the one you used, Jack.
Laughter
Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, as I sit down, allow me to say I have a lot of respect for the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi. I would not really want to take much time to talk about him, except to mention to those in the UPND not to use young people to bring Motions to Parliament which they are failing to bring themselves.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving the voice of Chienge a chance to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House.
Madam, I do not have much to say. I have been following this debate from the time I heard that this Motion was being circulated. I got concerned that it was about censuring an hon. Minister for using unpalatable language towards the youth.
Madam Chairperson, what shocked me was that this Motion was brought by an hon. Member of Parliament who I expect to be considered a youth and who should lead by example in respecting elders in society.
Madam, Hon. Cornelius Mweetwa called the –
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member, have you read the Motion? If you have, then, you know that the Motion is not to censure anyone apart from the hon. Minister.
Ms Katuta: Madam Speaker, it is about censuring Hon. Lusambo for using unpalatable language. So, what is unpalatable language and why should we censure him? I expected this kind of Motion to be brought to the Floor of this House by the same hon. Member when women, especially the mother of the nation, were being injured.
Madam, we have had situations in this country where women have been demeaned and that has been applauded by others all in the name of politics. We have heard a female hon. Minister being called ‘Mr’ right here on the Floor of the House, but that was not considered unpalatable. Neither does this Motion deserve any support nor does the hon. Minister deserve to be censured. We will take it that he said what he said in the name of politics like we have heard from the teachers, hon. Members of the United Party for National Development (UPND), who use unpalatable language.
Madam Speaker, I have heard the UPND use unpalatable language towards women on the Floor of the House. Even outside the House, Her Honour the Vice-President was demeaned but no one has ever brought such a Motion.
Madam, we have got important things to debate about in our country like teaching abstinence to our children and how to keep pregnancies instead of going for the so-called safe abortions. Instead, we are wasting time on such Motions which are not contributing anything to our Christian nation.
Madam Speaker, they say, “Do unto others as you would like to them to do unto you.” What language have they been using before they brought this Motion? It means we should censure all those who have been using unpalatable language on the Floor of the House instead of picking on an individual.
Madam, as far as I am concerned, this Motion does not deserve to be debated. We should have moved on to other business of the House. This is time wasting.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Katuta: It is upsetting that I did not hear such things when an important person in society like Her Honour the Vice-President was called names and when a certain young man called the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting that horrible name. Instead, we have seen the same political party supporting the young men who use such language towards women bringing such a Motion to this House. What can we say?
Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, we should be consulted before such Motions are brought to the Floor of the House so that we can reject them because they are a waste of our time. We have important things to do and debate relating to serious matters which affect the nation unlike wasting everyone’s time like this and upsetting some of us.
Madam, with these few words, I would like to say can we bring better Motions to the Floor of the House.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Ms Siliya): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity to make a comment on this Motion which, from the onset, I do not support.
Madam, I know that this is a political House, but even as we practice our politics, I do not believe that we should take the opportunity to overstretch our minds in trying to settle scores or even make points with the public.
Madam, as the hon. Member of Chienge just pointed out, even I was extremely concerned about spending this whole afternoon wasting taxpayers’ money, the people of Zambia’s money, on an issue which, I believe, should, if at all, be an Executive administration function.
Madam Speaker, even though the Constitution provides for such, I want to believe that this is the reason the hon. Minister of Justice has spent a lot of time trying to address the lacunae therein. I hope that we, as hon. Members of Parliament, can all be remembered for applying our minds to such issues.
Madam, this afternoon, the people of Zambia were expecting us to address the Budget, which is a very important document. Yesterday, His Excellency the President was in Matero looking at the challenges of water and these are the solutions that the people of Zambia are looking for. However, here we are stretching our minds referring to two youths.
Madam Speaker, there are six million youth in Zambia. When they expressed their concern on various issues, we expected our hon. Colleagues from the United Party for National Development (UPND) to put solutions on the table. What we, in the Government, did was come up with an empowerment programme and an internship programme because that is what a responsible Government does. What our hon. Colleagues have done, once again, is a clear demonstration that they have run out of political ideas on how to get into Government because we have spent a lot of time this afternoon wasting Zambia’s resources, which is taxpayers’ money, discussing two youth.
Madam Speaker, context is very important. As politicians, when we come to this political House, we need to remember that context is very important. Those who do not understand context are the people who want to ensure that this country sees strife.
Madam, in other jurisdictions such as the United States of America (USA), there is a phenomenon called cancel culture. This is where a group of people believe that they will be heard by making the most noise or going on the internet because they do not have the strength to stomach the different opinions and debates and do not like views of other people.
Madam Speaker, this is what we are seeing in the country when it comes to tribalism. Talking about Tongas seems to be synonymous with tribalism, but it is not. I should be able to refer to Bembas, Tongas, Lundas and any other tribe in this country without the context of tribalism. That is what good politicians should do.
Madam, tomorrow, His Excellency the President will commission the Lusaka Decongestion Project at Arcades Traffic Circle on the Great East Road. Whenever we talk about development in this country, especially infrastructure development, our hon. Colleagues want to use the cancel culture and refer to it as corruption. It is not progressive for our country and we have to desist from doing that.
Madam Speaker, whenever we talk about violence, our hon. Colleagues try to use the cancel culture to make the most noise and accuse everybody of violence, just like they accuse everybody of tribalism, yet there is only one party in this country that is on record as having talked about violence as a way to State House.
Madam Speaker, it is also the same context with the issue of the youth. There are six million youth in this country. What they are looking for is the side that is going to provide leadership. Those youth are looking for a side where politicians are honest and, maybe, this provides us an opportunity this afternoon.
Madam Chairperson, when certain comments are made in this House and the good thing for us to say is that somebody has been insulted, we hear people cheer. It is shameful that the people of Zambia can watch us come to the table in this House with hands that are unclean and pretend that it is okay when a leader of an Opposition party insults other people and bring frivolous Motions to this Floor to talk about an hon. Minister who, in the context of leadership, was trying to counsel young people. We, on your right side, are responsible. Our own administrative counselling procedures took place. Nevertheless, I believe what happened this afternoon is a real tell-tale of the kind of Opposition we have in this country. It will stretch every opportunity using mental gymnastics to gain points and bring frivolous Motions to this Floor.
Madam Chairperson, I do not support the Motion.
I thank you, Madam.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we have spent a lot of time debating this Motion. Does the hon. Minister for Lusaka Province wish to speak now?
The Lusaka Province Minister (Mr Lusambo): Madam Speaker, yes.
Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Motion, which the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi has brought to this august House.
Madam Speaker, I am very shocked that we are debating this Motion in this august House today. I consider this august House as one that considers very serious matters.
Madam Speaker, on my end, I have discussed this issue with my elders, including the President. The Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to me and I was very specific on this issue. The two gentlemen are my good friends. The apology by Kings Malembe Malembe to the people of Zambia and the President was issued from my house after we had dinner together.
Madam Speaker, Kings Malembe Malembe is a person I have seen growing up. B’Flow is a boy whose music career I sponsored when I was in Kabwe. I talk to his parents every day.
Madam Speaker, Kings Malembe Malembe’s parents reside in Kabushi Constituency, which is my constituency. I know that the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi wanted to settle scores here in the House.
Madam Speaker, the youth of Kapiri Mposhi are troubling me because the hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi has abandoned them.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I expect you to speak to the Motion, which is very clear about the language you used.
Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, I am sticking to the Motion and the reason the hon. Member has brought it to this august House is that the youth in Kapiri Mposhi are troubling me.
Madam Speaker, I am in love with the youth of Zambia. When you come to my office, you note that even its name has been changed. It is called “the Outpatient’s Office”. If you came to my office, you would note that I attend to not less than 200 youths of this great country per day. I am here to sort out issues pertaining to the youth. The Government of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has invested a lot in ensuring that it uplifts the living standards of the youth.
Madam Speaker, it is very discouraging that Hon. Kakubo can come here to posture to want to represent the youth. I am still in the category of youth and I would not allow myself to be represented by a person who has no moral courage like Hon. Kakubo.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, withdraw that statement. I explained to you that this Motion is properly before the House. Deal with the Motion.
You may proceed.
Mr Lusambo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the statement.
Madam Speaker, I will continue working with the youth. The youth I refer to are my friends and, as we speak, are outside in my car. Kings Malembe Malembe and B’Flow are outside. Therefore, I am very shocked that this Motion has been tabled in this august House.
Madam Speaker, I have no further words except to say that I do not support this Motion. My aim is to continue working with the youth. One day, when you come to Kabushi Constituency, I will show you the number of youth we are helping. We are helping thousands of youth and that is why I boast. When I go to Kabushi Constituency, they call me “bulldozer” and I know that I will come back to the House next year. However, I will bring a new hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi Constituency next year.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr Kakubo: Madam Speaker, in winding up debate, it is with a heart of gratitude that I say the following remarks. The future of our country and its continuity depends on young people, the youth. As a result of next year, we, as young people, can confidently say that we are still in control of where we shall take our country, which is forward. Those who have chosen to make our democracy a laughing stock in the region will pay in the next few months.
Madam Speaker, I thank you.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, before I put the question, let me request all of you participating from designated places to come to the Chamber and, as you do so, put on your Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Personal Protective Equipment (PPE). I believe everybody has a set.
Hon. Members entered the Assembly Chamber.
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, as I indicated earlier, Article 87 (5) of the Constitution of Zambia provides that,
“The National Assembly may pass a vote of censure on a Minister or Provincial Minister by resolution supported by two-thirds of the votes of the Members of Parliament.”
Hon. Members, two-thirds of all the members of the National Assembly is 101. I now proceed to put the question for the decision of the House.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we will use 111.
Interruptions
Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members. Two-thirds of all the members of the National Assembly is 111. I now proceed to put the question for the decision of the House.
Question that this House being dissatisfied with the conducted of Hon. Bowman Chilosha Lusambo, MP, Minister for Lusaka Province, and in accordance with Article 87 of the Constitution of Zambia as read with Standing Order 175 of the National Assembly of Zambia Standing Orders, 2016, the hon. Minister be censured for the following reasons:
(a) that, at the press briefing held at his office on Wednesday, 3rd June, 2020, the hon. Minister used unpalatable language when he referred to the youths who were expressing their opinions on governance issues as disgruntled and that their expression of opinions was an act of stupidity and stinking nonsense; and
(b) that, at the same press briefing, the hon. Minister ordered the said youths to stop expressing their opinions forthwith, warning them that they were, “too naked to misbehave” put and the House voted.
Ayes – (38)
Mr Belemu
Mr Bulaya
Mr Chaatila
Ms Chisangano
Mr Chishala
Mr Fungulwe
Dr Imakando
Mr Jamba
Mr Jere
Mr Kakubo
Dr Kalila
Mr Kamondo
Mr Kapalasa
Mr Kasonso
Ms Kucheka
Mr Kundoti
Mr Lufuma
Mr Lumayi
Mr Machila
Mr Mandumbwa
Mr Mbangweta
Mr Michelo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Muchima
Mr Mulunda
Ms Mulyata
Mr Mutaba
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mwiinga
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Nkombo
Mr Samakayi
Evg. Shabula
Mr Sialubalo
Gen. Sitwala
Mr Siakalima
Ms Tambatamba
Noes − (88)
Dr C. R. Banda
Mr S. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabi
Mr Chali
Ms Chalikosa
Mr Chalwe
Mr Chama
Dr Chanda
Mr Chansa
Dr Chibanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Chisanga
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chiteme
Mr Chiyalika
Mr Chungu
Mr Daka
Mr Fube
Dr Hamukale
Ms P. Jere
Mr Kabamba
Mr Kabanda
Ms Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Mr Kampampi
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapita
Mr Kasandwe
Mr Katambo
Ms Katuta
Mr Kaziya
Dr Kopulande
Mr Kunda
Mr Lubinda
Prof. Lungwangwa
Prof. Luo
Mr Lusambo
Mr A. B. Malama
Dr M. Malama
Mr Malanji
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mecha
Mr Miti
Ms Miti
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukosa
Mr Mulenga
Ms Mulenga
Mr Mundubile
Mr Mung’andu
Mr Mushanga
Dr Mushimba
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mwakalombe
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwansa
Ms Mwape
Mr Mwila
Mr Nakacinda
Mr Ng’onga
Dr Ng’andu
Mr Ngulube
Mr Nkhuwa
Mr Nyirenda
Mrs Phiri
Ms Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mrs Simukoko
Mr Siwale
Ms Subulwa
Rev. Sumaili
Mr L. N. Tembo
Mr M. Tembo
Mr S. Tembo
Dr Wanchinga
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu
Abstentions – (0)
Question accordingly negatived, with less than two-thirds of all the Members voting in the affirmative.
_______
BILL
SECOND READING
THE EXCESS EXPENDITURE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2020
The Minister of Finance (Dr Ng’andu): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Madam Speaker, Article 203, Clause 7 of the Constitution, states that:
“Where expenditure is incurred in accordance with clause (4), the Minister responsible for finance shall, in that financial year, lay an Excess Expenditure Appropriation Bill before the National Assembly for enactment.”
Madam Speaker, it is on the backdrop of the above that I present the Bill to approve the excess expenditure of monies aggregating K15, 464,217,474 required for the services of the Republic.
Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, allow me to bring out the notable proposed expenditure allocations contained in this Excess Expenditure Appropriation Bill. K5.7 billion or 38 per cent of excess expenditure has been dedicated to domestic debt service obligations. K5.54 billion or 37 per cent of the total excess expenditure has been allocated to expenditures drawn from the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Bond.
Madam Speaker, out of K5.54 billion, K1.2 billion has been channelled to various categories of retirees of which, K585 million has been channelled to the Public Service Pension Fund, K300 million towards former workers who won their cases against the Government under the Ministry of Justice and K150 million towards retirees under the Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF). K1 billion has been allocated towards dismantling of arrears to suppliers of goods and services to the Government. K900 million has been spent on recapitalisation of the National Savings and Credit Bank (NATSAVE). K500 million was spent on youth empowerment programmes of which, K470 million has been channelled to the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development. K30 million will be spent under the Ministry of Tourism and Arts. K1.70 billion has been allocated to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). K450 million has been allocated for Emergency Preparedness and Response Plan on the COVID-19 pandemic related expenditures.
Madam Speaker, the Excess Expenditure Warrants Numbers 1 and 2 of 2020 appropriations contained in this Bill were thoroughly debated and approved by the Budget Committee of this august House in May and July 2020 respectively. Therefore, I do not expect to have a protracted debate over the matter and I beg to move.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Ng’andu: Madam Speaker, I am grateful for the unanimous approval of the second reading of the Bill. Earlier in my submission, I mentioned that your Committee thoroughly debated this Bill and, I think, the silence of the House reflects the fact that it did a thorough job on it.
Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.
Committed to a committee of the Whole House.
Committee on Tuesday, 3rd November, 2020.
_______
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
VOTE 39 – (Smart Zambia Institute – K99,793,953)
(Consideration resumed)
Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I find it strange that some people criticise the Smart Zambia Institute, yet through the Electronic Government (e-Government) Programme, we will be able to save a lot of money. We have gotten rid of the bulky Yellow Book –
Dr Kalila: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, my point of order is on the health of hon. Members of Parliament in this House.
Sir, Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), as the name suggests, entails that it is meant to protect an individual pre-exposure and during exposure. I noticed that hon. Members were asked to come into this House by way of a circular, obviously, with some safety measures in place, which I assume are the protective clothing. Hon. Members came into this House and I noticed that they had interacted for two solid hours without recourse to the protective clothing that was distributed only for the sole purpose of pressing the button to vote, thereby defeating the very purpose for which this equipment was meant. If the PPE was meant to prevent transmission, then, the purpose has clearly been defeated in those two hours.
Mr Chairperson, is this Parliament in order to put at risk the lives of hon. Members by tendering wrong advice and generally wasting resources on equipment which could have been used more productively and correctly elsewhere?
Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.
The Deputy Chairperson: My immediate ruling is that I reserve my ruling on that so that I look at some rules that we created for ourselves. Then, I will get back to the House and render a ruling.
The hon. Member for Senga Hill may continue.
Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that Smart Zambia Institute has already saved colossal sums of money. As we can see, the Cabinet is now digital. That has reduced a lot of movements by drivers delivering communications like before. Recently, we saw a virtual United Nations (UN) meeting. Our President did not have to travel for that meeting. Therefore, we saved a lot of money.
Sir, I am concerned about the budget for this unit because I do not see a line on training. When I look at human resources and management and administration and the money apportioned, it looks very little to me. I would rather we train these people to the heels. They should be as good as their boss, Dr Martin Mtonga. These are the people who will take us into the future. If we do not support them very much, we will remain behind as we are right now.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. Let me begin by thanking Her Honour the Vice-President for a very clear policy statement on this extremely important institution.
Mr Chairperson, the Smart Zambia Institute is part of Africa’s quest for the transformation of the continent in the context of the digital technology era we are in. As we are all aware, Smart Africa is a Heads of State project, which started way back in 2013 and was agreed to by all Heads of State on the African continent in 2014. The idea was to transform the continent of Africa to usher it into a knowledge-driven economy in order to attain sustainable development. Clearly, what the Smart Zambia Institute has done, is doing and has planned to do is to transform our country in the context of digital technology. When I see what has happened in the last six years, I think, we should commend Smart Zambia Institute for the job that it is excellently executing.
Sir, look at what has been done so far. Just yesterday, on 1900 hours news, we saw a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) being signed between the Smart Zambia Institute and the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) so that our procurement system in the country will be information-driven, more efficient and more cost-effective. This is how it should be. We all know the problems that have besieged procurement in this country. I listened to Dr Mtonga a few weeks ago. He informed the nation that, so far, 241,000 civil servants are receiving electronic payslips. Only 12,000 are remaining, and that is because they are in remote rural areas.
So many ghost workers have been cleared from the payroll. These are problems which have been very vexing to us.
At the moment, in order to reduce human to human interaction, the Road Transport Safety Agency (RTSA) is now on the Smart Zambia –
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
(Debate adjourned)
_______
HOUSE RESUMED
[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress reported)
_______
The House adjourned at 1657 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 29th October, 2020.
____________