Debates - Friday, 23rd November, 2012

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Friday, 23rd November, 2012

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to acquaint the House with the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 27th November, 2012, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2013 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and it will consider the following Heads:

Head 68    Ministry of Tourism and Arts;
Head 76    Ministry of Youth and Sport; and 
Head 77    Ministry of Defence.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 28th November, 2012, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Member’s Motions, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2013 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure to consider the following Heads:

Head 78    Zambia Security Intelligence Services – Office of the President;
Head 80    Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education; and 
Head 85    Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection.

Sir, on Thursday, 29th November, 2012, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2013 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and the following Heads will be considered:

Head 87         Anti-Corruption Commission; and
Head 89        Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock.

Sir, on Friday, 30th November, 2012, the Business of the House will commerce with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time, which will  be attended by all those who are interested in blood sports. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with the presentation of Government’s Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider the Second Reading stage of the following Bills:

Customs and Excise Amendment Bill, 2012;
Income Tax Amendment Bill, 2012;
Medical Levy Repeal Bill, 2012
The Mines and Minerals Development Amendment Bill, 2012;
The Property Transfer Tax Amendment Bill, 2012;
The Value Added Tax Amendment Bill, 2012; and 
The Zambia Development Agency Amendment Bill, 2012.

Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2013 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and it will consider the following Head:

Head       51 Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication.

Sir, the House will then deal with any business that may remain outstanding.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.



Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, the price of our staple food, mealie-meal, has gone up on the Copperbelt, in some towns up to K85,000 for a 25 kg bag of mealie-meal. This is making life difficult for our people. Can His Honour the Vice-President inform us what the Government’s position is on the price of the staple food and what it intends to do to ensure that people are able to access mealie-meal.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, in due course and, to be specific, on Tuesday next week, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock will give a ministerial statement on this topic. However, I want to make a number of observations that may not be included in that statement. One of them is that the millers were informed that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) was not planning to hoard all the maize that will get milled this year. It was divided up in such a way that, up until the end of December, the millers would gather for themselves, on the free market, the maize that they need in order to mill and then, from 1st January onwards, the FRA would supply the second half of the marketing season’s maize. However, they thought they were cleverer than that, and felt that they could just leave the FRA to buy all the maize as per usual with all the corruption and wastage that is involved in that process, and then essentially blackmail the Government into opening the gates of the FRA. That is our stance at the moment. Unfortunately, it seems that blackmail may have some effect in bringing us a few weeks earlier into releasing some maize to bring the prices down.

Mr Speaker, the second factor is that Mpongwe Milling, which is a very large producer of mealie-meal on the Copperbelt, and which actually did buy maize from the free market in order to mill it and supply to consumers, has had mechanical outage for seven days now. This has aggravated the situation. 

The underlying aggravation in the situation is that South Africa has stopped supplying maize into other African countries. It has engineered brilliant business relationships with Mexico and China and is supplying its white maize to these two countries. Zambia is in the unfortunate position – unfortunate if you are a consumer, but fortunate for the exporter, of being the supplier of choice to several countries. This is a very radical change from last year’s situation. There is no South African maize going into the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) at the moment. So, the DRC is coming to Chililabombwe for maize. This is a very interesting situation. 

Mr Speaker, these are some of the underlying factors in this situation. However, I would expect the situation to normalise by the end of next week. 


The Vice-President: This is no laughing matter. Some of our neighbours are …

Hon. Opposition Members: Thank you!

Mr Speaker: Order!

A question was posed. Therefore, it must be answered. 

The Vice-President: … going to enjoy food riots this year and Zambia will not. I call this management of the strategic reserve. 

I thank you, Sir. 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, I would like a comment from His Honour the Vice-President on the recent unrest by the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) casual workers. 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if I understand the question correctly, there seems to be a misunderstanding. There are a hundred causal workers who think that when their casual work, which is hourly, does not come up to some floor level, then they are entitled, under the relevant statutory instruments from the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, to have it topped up. There seems to be a misunderstanding which is being fueled by certain political forces. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President:  However, we expect this to be sorted out shortly. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President why farmers are still waiting for fertiliser from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). Why are they still waiting when the rainy season is here? 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the statement, ‘farmers are still waiting’, is true because the exercise is ongoing. The situation now is no different from that of two years ago because it is difficult to distribute these inputs. In fact, we are having more difficulties because we found so much corruption and diversion of the fertiliser to civil servants, school teachers and people who are not entitled to the FISP inputs. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Small growers were being ignored. We are correcting this situation and it is costing us time. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: When the gods were angry with Hercules, they made him clean some stables which belonged to giant horses which produced phenomenon quantities of manure, and Hercules could hardly manage, in several weeks, to clean the stable. 


The Vice-President: Therefore, have some sympathy for us. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, His Majesty the Litunga of Barotseland carries intrinsic cultural values with him. Among them, spiritual, historical and symbolic. In fact, His Majesty the Litunga is omnipresent or omnipotent …

Hon. Members: No!

Dr Kaingu: … in Barotseland.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let him complete. 

Dr Kaingu: I have two questions for His Honour the Vice-President. Firstly, what has gone seriously wrong for your Government to give protection to His Majesty the Litunga of Barotseland?

Secondly, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

I will restrict you to your first question. You can only ask one question.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if I were a theologian, I would expatiate upon the overtones of blasphemy for saying that the Litunga is omnipresent in this Chamber, for instance. 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: That is not correct. In my understanding of Theology, this is correct only of God Almighty. 


Mr Speaker: Order! 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, what has gone wrong? I am sure that the questioner knows better than I do that there are certain destabilising forces in the Western Province of Zambia. We are merely assuring the Litunga of his right, as a citizen, to protection from the Central Government of the Republic of Zambia. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, may I know from His Honour the Vice-President what the Government is doing about the issue of resettlements. 


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, resettlements fall under my office. So, it is an appropriate question. 

Sir, we found the matter of resettlements in a hobbling, crippled state except for particular areas like Kanakantapa. There are many other areas where we need to inject some capital. We are in talks with the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) to supply the capital for this development. We are also in talks with the Public Service Management Division which has a special initiative to deal with the resettlement of retired civil servants. We are bringing various people together, as the Vice-President should, to see whether we can get some synergies and re-ignite that initiative which was started by His Excellency Dr Kenneth Kaunda some forty-five or forty-six years ago. We intend to revamp it. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I recall that my colleagues on your right, when the former Minister of Transport and Communication, Hon. Dora Siliya, was appearing in court, insisted that she steps down as Minister. The then President obliged and she stepped down and retained her position as Member of Parliament. 

Mr Speaker, a similar situation obtained when the then hon. Minister for Southern Province was charged and appeared in court. There was pressure on the part of my colleagues and us, the United Party for National Development (UPND), that he should step down as Minister and he obliged, following the rules of natural justice. 

Mr Speaker, we have noted, with concern, as hon. Members of Parliament and the nation as a whole, that, under the PF Government, Ministers who are appearing in court, go to court with their flags flying, are being saluted by the security personnel and are being addressed as ‘Sir’ when they appear in court before the Justices.

 I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the policy of the PF Government is pertaining to its Ministers serving and, at the same time, appearing in court but who are sitting in this House at the moment. Is what they were agitating for in the past wrong? Is it now appropriate for Ministers to be appearing in the Subordinate Court, with flags and all, then come and sit in this House? I would like to find out what the policy of the Government is on this issue. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Mwiimbu for his point of order, question or whatever it is.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, one of the policies we have is not to respond to anonymous questions or allegations. If he specifies who he is referring to, I might answer the question. However, let me just comment in passing that, very clearly, the UPND used to depend upon us for a real fist for justice.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: In fact, we were able to persuade the then President to stop his hon. Ministers from doing certain things. Obviously, you have forgotten how to do it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, may I find out why hunting licences are given to foreigners at the expense of Zambians?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there will be a statement about that next week. In fact I have got a copy of it. The hon. Minister of Tourism and Art is going to make a very comprehensive statement regarding the issue which has been raised by Hon. Kapyanga. However, I would like to say that the situation is not the way it is assumed to be. There are Zambian elites who are getting privileges which the ordinary Zambians in the villages or rural Zambians are not getting. Those who are not getting those privileges are the Zambians who are hurting. Those are the ones who are making the anonymous complaints. I know the names of some of them. I assure you that they are not only Bemba, Ngoni or Lozi. They are not people from just one tribe. They are not names corresponding to any indigenous tradition. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Speaker, a couple of weekends ago, I was in Livingstone, the venue of next year’s United Nations World Tourism Conference. To my surprise, I saw no evidence of any preparations for the conference taking place, except the construction of the airport terminal buildings. May I find out from His Honour the Vice-President if we are still going to host this event. If so, how serious are we with our preparations so as to avoid embarrassment?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Questioner has not realised that since I am not the supervising engineer for the works which are going on in Livingstone, I do not have to keep handing in the engineer’s report. However, I believe that the works will be completed as scheduled.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President indicate whether his Government is willing to reopen the Co-operative Bank which can assist farmers and, if so, when?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the problem I am beginning to have with the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza is that I am running out of names for him, …


The Vice-President: … but I still do like him because he asks enjoyable questions.

Mr Kambwili: Tom and Jerry!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the brief answer to his question is, no.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, we are in the rainy season when we have a lot of disasters such as the blowing off of roofs of schools and floods. May I know what plans the Government has to decentralise the services of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to districts and other areas.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think, it can safely be said that the DMMU is an organisation which has actually been improving its operations over the years. It was one of the few parts of the machine which the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) used to run which actually kept improving its operations over the years. Its operations have already improved greatly under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.

At 1100 hours yesterday, I got an urgent request to supply some mealie-meal to Chiawa. When I phoned the DMMU, I was told that its officers had already conducted a survey and the mealie-meal was at the pontoon on the Kafue River by 1800 hours yesterday. This was exactly seven hours after the problem was brought to my attention. The reclamation of wetlands is something which the DMMU is going into. We hope to have an initiative covering, at least, the large part of the Western Province and the Bangweulu Area by the end of this coming year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Ms Sayifwanda (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, yesterday, I attended a workshop which was officially opened by the First Lady of the Republic of Zambia. One of the crucial issues that came out of the workshop was the need for funding for the implementation of the Gender Based Violence Act, which was enacted by this House, but seems to have no allocation in the 2013 Budget. May I find out whether the Government is going to allocate funding to the implementation of this Act since it cannot be operationalised without funding?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I believe that it has been catered for under separate Votes under different ministries. It has been put as a crosscutting issue and not one which should be handled by a single ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I wish to follow up on a question from my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, regarding the position of the Government for serving Ministers and, indeed, civil servants, who are caught up in court issues, accusations and also arrests which, in his response, His Honour the Vice-President relegated to triviality.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: We are told by procedure not to debate ourselves. However, His Honour the Vice-President has challenged us to mention the name of the hon. Member who is in court. I wish to remain within the confines of our procedures and ask His Honour the Vice-President what the Government policy is when an hon. Member – he looks surprised. It is Hon. Masumba.


Mr Speaker: Proceed with the question and do not contradict yourself.


Mr Nkombo: It is Hon. Masumba who is in court for alleged forgery of an academic certificate. What is the Government’s policy regarding hon. Members who are serving the public while they continue appearing before the courts of law?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, each case is taken on its own merits.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to remind the Hon. Questioner of what he said five seconds ago. He said that we do not debate ourselves.

Mr Mwiimbu: Aah! 

But you challenged us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President, the question is seeking a response based on policy. Please, respond.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes!


The Vice-President: There is no written or otherwise enunciated policy on this matter.

Sir, I thank you. 

Mr Kambwili: Jealousy! 

Kula sebanya umwaiche!

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, international media reports indicate that two of Zambia’s neighbouring States are having military disturbances due to rebel activity. Could His Honour the Vice-president give us comfort that Zambians living in the bordering areas with those States are safe?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the problem in the DRC, which is four times the land area of Zambia, is in the north-eastern part which is opposite Uganda and Rwanda. I also wish to point out that there are some members of the Great Lakes Region Committee who wonder why Zambia is part of it. They say that we do not even have a border with the DRC. I had to remind them the other day that we had a 2,000 km border stretch with the DRC. We are very far away from the unrest between the M23 and Congolese Army. I would like to reassure the country that we do not expect anything to happen as far the southern part of our border. In fact, there is a ceasefire being negotiated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, this is November and the rain does not seem to be forthcoming. May I know if those who are in Government are worried at the fact that we do not have rains up to this time.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the policy position of the Government on the rain …


The Vice-President: …is that, it is only nine days late in Lusaka. The normal median date of commencement is 14th November. I have known the rains to start as late as Christmas Day, that is to say, in about one month’s time. Although it does not show the makings of a good season, we have only gone nine days past the date when rains are expected to begin. I will start consulting the voodoo specialist in another week or two.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chabala (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the Mopani Copper Mines Plc is committed to reducing sulphur dioxide pollution by next year, as the hon. Minister indicated.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I can only respond to questions on behalf of the Government and not Mopani Copper Mines. We are committed to basically twisting the arm of any mining company that is polluting the country. Bringing down sulphur dioxide pollution has been a long standing issue. We have talked about it in this House for many years running.  I am pleased to see that efforts to reduce sulphur emissions seem to be progressing apace.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 21st November, 2012, in Choma, police officers who identified themselves as coming from Lusaka and Livingstone detained and interrogated two UPND youths on allegations of being connected to the so-called Tongas under Oath. After the interrogation, without any reasonable explanation to the youths, the police grabbed their cell phones and left. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether or not the police are entitled to grab private property from citizens without any court order or warrant.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is very difficult for me to comment on matters related to police procedures. I do not know what evidence the police officers were looking for or what threat they felt these people posed. However, procedures are fairly flexible, especially when they concern things like cell phones which have information or contacts in them. So, by just speculating, I would say that the questioner should go to the Police Public Complaints Authority so that the matter can be properly looked into. I cannot look into it here.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, there has been serious talk regarding the utilisation of the Constituency Development Fun (CDF) even in this House. Some of the hon. Members are advocating that the current CDF should be raised from the K1 billion to K5 billion. Can His Honour the Vice-President give the Government’s view on the utilisation of the CDF.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we will be debating issues to do with the CDF, of course, after this question time. However, I would like to say that we, in the PF, are of the view that if you try to expand something too hard and too fast, you tend to break it. If you try to grow a child up to the level of an adult in two years flat, you will end up with a very awkward looking being who, perhaps, will have a mind of a baby and a body of a wrestler. That will create problems for you. There have been problems which have been associated with the rapid expansion of the CDF. We are expecting considerable queries about its utilisation from the Auditor-General. We just want to do things in an orderly fashion. There is some room for compromise, but we will not be intimidated or driven to do the wrong thing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, can his Honour the Vice-President indicate when the workers at Mupepetwe in Muchinga Parliamentary Constituency, who have gone for five months without pay, will get their pay.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the situation at Mupepetwe is that since the factory no longer seems to be viable in the manufacturing of small arms ammunition, it has been given the task of making desks which are supplied to the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. Therefore, when it gets paid, its workers will get paid.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, mine is a follow up to the question raised by Hon. Dr Kaingu and the response from His Honour the Vice-President. Do you realise that by offering to protect His Majesty the Litunga, you are actually re-introducing the Barotseland Protectorate?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not realise that because it is not true. Recognising the Chitimukulu, for example, as a Zambian citizen, cannot bring about some imaginary Bemba Protectorate. The question by Hon. Imenda seems to be a very off-beam one.

I thank you, Sir.



273. Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

(a)what circumstances led to the death of a Zambian national whose   
body was found floating in a river in the Czech Republic on 6th November, 2012 as reported in the local media; and

(b)whether the Zambian Government would institute an independent   
inquiry to ascertain the cause of death.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr Lungu): Mr Speaker, following the information that was reported by the Czech Republic Police that a dead human body was found floating on the Vitava River in the city of Roztoky in the Czech Republic on 6th November, 2012, three Zambians resident in the Czech Republic identified the body to be that of Mr Sikwebele Malitela, a Zambian national.

Sir, following this confirmation, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, through the Zambian Embassy in Germany, held consultations with the Czech authorities to establish the cause of death. The preliminary response that has been given by the Czech Republic Police is that there was no evidence of foul play because no injuries or bruises were found on the body. As such, the police were inclined to assume that the cause of the death was suicide and that Mr Malitela drowned.

Mr Speaker, this assumption, according to the Czech police, was strengthened by the fact that his body was found with a bag around his neck with some stones in it weighing just over 3kg. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has since instructed the embassy in Germany to insist on being given an authenticated police report from the Czech Republic. This, too, is being done, and the Czech authorities have given an assurance that investigations would continue.

Mr Speaker, it cannot be determined, currently, whether the Zambian Government will institute an independent inquiry to ascertain the cause of death as this will depend on the outcome of investigations that are being undertaken by the Czech authorities.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, the death of any Zambian, whether here at home, or in the Diaspora, deserves to be handled with grace and care. However, His Honour the Vice-President opted to dramatise the situation last week on this very question …

Mr Speaker: What is your question?

Mr Ngoma: … by being clumsy, thereby, showing …

Mr Speaker: What is your question?

Mr Ngoma: … lack of care. Has the Government got any plans to evacuate the remains of the deceased so that we can have a dignified burial here, in Zambia, as opposed to the body rotting or being marooned in some mortuary in the Czech Republic?

Mr Speaker: Before the question is answered, I want to guide that it is appropriate that we follow the etiquette of the House, and I do not think that it was in order for you, hon. Member for Sinda, to refer to the Vice-President in the terms that you did, namely that the matter was handed with clumsiness. I think that the point could have been put across differently. Therefore, I urge you to withdraw that word.

Mr Ngoma: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘clumsy’ and replace it with ‘carelessness’ or ‘recklessness’.


The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Lubinda): Sir, allow me to just say that I have consulted with His Honour the Vice-President as to whether he has ever commented on this matter. His memory and mine, and those of hon. Members seated close to me do not have a record of His Honour the Vice-President having ever been faced with this question at all.


Mr Lubinda: However, …

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Let me give directions. I think that, for the time being, let us confine ourselves to the specific question. We will avoid a great deal of controversy that way. The question here is, simply: What arrangements are being made to bring the remains of the deceased? 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, the family of the deceased has been informed and they are in touch with the ministry. We have made it clear to the family that the Government will not take the responsibility for transporting the body of the deceased because, unfortunately, the deceased was in the Czech Republic on his own accord. He went to the Czech Republic in 2005 on a scholarship from the Czech Government. Unfortunately, the scholarship was withdrawn and the gentleman was actually earmarked for deportation. Our mission in Berlin was asked to go and identify the body of the gentleman but, in the process, the authorities in the Czech Republic informed the mission that they had positively identified him and that he was to be deported back to Zambia.

Sir, we are taking a keen interest and total care in this matter. That is the reason we went ahead to instruct the mission in Berlin to go to the Czech Republic to get an authenticated police report because we want to know from the police how this Zambian national died. The rest is a private matter which is being handled by the family. 

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Speaker, going by the hon. Minister’s answer, does he wish us to believe that the Government of the Czech Republic will bring the body here because this gentleman was going to be deported? Or is the family able to transport the body? If none of the two options are possible, would it not be humane for the Government to spend some money on a citizen who has died out of the country and whose family cannot afford to bring his body back?

Mr Lubinda: Sir, there are many Zambians who die abroad. This is not the first case. Many have died in the past and we are careful not to set a dangerous precedent that the Zambian Government takes responsibility for transporting the remains of Zambians who die abroad. We will take responsibility if a Zambian dies abroad on the sponsorship of the Government or under a programme that is recognised by the Government. Otherwise, we would have a burden that we would not be able to carry.

I thank you, Sir.


274. Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

(a)how many Rwandese nationals were resident in Zambia, as of August, 2012;

(b)of the Rwandese nationals at (a), how many were wanted in their country as suspected perpetrators of the genocide that took place in 1994;

(c)whether the Zambian Government would hand over the suspects to the Rwandese Government for them to stand trial in accordance with the Rwandese and international laws; and

(d)if so, when the suspects would be handed over.

Dr Lungu: Mr Speaker, as of August, 2012, there were 6,340 Rwandese nationals resident in Zambia. The Rwandese Government has, so far, written to request that six of its nationals living in Zambia as refugees, who are alleged to have taken part in the genocide in 1994, be handed over to the authorities in that country. Currently, the Extradition Act, Cap. 94 of the Laws of Zambia only allows extradition of fugitives to other countries if there is an agreement on a reciprocal basis between Zambia and that country. In this regard, the Zambian Government cannot hand over the said fugitives to the Rwandese Government without an agreement. However, the Zambian Government is ready to hand over the said suspects if the request is made by the International Tribunal for Rwanda (ITR) which established by the United Nations (UN) to which Zambia is a party.

Mr Speaker, the said fugitives can only be handed over when the two countries negotiate and sign an agreement to deal with extraditions on a reciprocal basis in accordance with the Extradition Act, Chapter 94 of the Laws of Zambia. However, as I have already stated, the said suspects could be handed over if the request is made by the ITR.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, one of the reasons people are at war in the north and east of the DRC is this hangover from the Rwandan Genocide, whereby the Rwandese Government is following up on those people who were involved in the killings who later ran to hide in the DRC. Are we not going to fall into the same trap if we do not hand over these people in a good way? The Rwandese authorities will find a way of coming into this country to get those people because they are a danger to their country. 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, there is no evidence, whatsoever, that the M23, which is fighting in the east of the DRC, have anything to do with people who are wanted by the Government of Rwanda. Therefore, I would like to allay the fears of my colleague, the hon. Member for Chipangali. The Rwandese authorities have asked us to extradite the people we mentioned and we are looking into that in accordance with our statutes. There is no fear, whatsoever, that anyone will come to Zambia in pursuit of those fugitives.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, 6,340 Rwandese refugees is, in my opinion, a large number for a small country like ours. In which refugee camps are most of these refugees? What long-term plan do we have for these refugees? Do we intend to literally send them back or resettle them?

Mr Lubinda: Sir, as at August, 2012, the Rwandese refugees were in the following places, by number:

Location            Number of Refugees
Maheba Refugee Settlement in Solwezi             3,700        

Mayukwayukwa Refugee Settlement    130 or so     

Urban Centres                            1,256 

Self-settled                            1,000

The ministry, working together with the Ministry of Home Affairs, the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) and representatives of the Rwandese refugees are looking at the mechanics of sending back these refugees to Rwanda. However, as my colleague knows, we cannot force them back to Rwanda. It has to be on an agreed settlement.

I thank you, Sir.





(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 29/05 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Local Government Administration Department – K657,189,341,351).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under Unit 04 – Local Government Finance and Audit Unit, Programme 5004 –Grants to Institutions – Capital, Activity 002 – Constituency Development Fund, by the deletion of Programme Total K150,000,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K195,000,000,000.

Amendment agreed to. 

Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 29/05, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Can I have order on my right, please? I am being disturbed. You are too close for loud consultations. Please, consult quietly.

VOTE 29/06 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing, Infrastructure and Support Services Department – K17,926,840,769).

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 176 – Retrenchment Packages – Nil.  This year, there is an amount of K1,822,000,000, which was allocated to this activity, but there is no allocation in the 2013 Budget. Are there no workers who are owed retrenchment packages? If so, is this the reason we have not budgeted for this activity next year?

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Chairperson, this activity involves payment of outstanding bills for terminal benefits to retrenched council workers who used to work in the Water Department before the creation of water companies. This activity has been budgeted for under Programme 5009, Activity 20.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 157 – Urban and Feeder Roads – K1,000,000,000. This year, the provision was K3,100,000,000. What is the reason for the provision of K1,000,000,000? Is it that feeder roads are no longer required or a lot has already been done such that only this amount is required to finish up?

The Deputy Minister Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Chairperson, the programme is meant for support for the operations of institutions under the mandate of urban and feeder roads, commercial utilities, urban and rural water supply schemes development. The activity has been reduced because a similar activity has been budgeted for under Head 20 – Loans and Investments.

Thank you Sir.

Vote 29/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 34 – (Human Rights Commission – K13,959,403,203).

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the policy statement and justification for the Estimates of Expenditure for the Human Rights Commission (HRC) for the year 2013.


The Chairperson: Order!

His Honour the Vice-President cannot be heard. Please, consult quietly.

The Vice-President: The HRC is established under the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.


The Chairperson: Order!

I am referring to the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing and the person behind him. When we say “order!” we mean just that.

His Honour the Vice-President may continue.

The Vice-President: The commission’s main functions are to:

(i)    investigate any human rights violations;

(ii)     investigate mal-administration of justice;

(iii)    conduct inspections of prisons, police cells and other places of detention;

(iv)    carry out continuing programmes of research and human rights education; and

(v)    facilitate the rehabilitation of the victims of human rights abuse.

Mr Chairperson, the commission also has the mandate, as appropriate; to conduct public sittings in which human rights issues are considered. For 2013, the HRC has been allocated a total amount of K13,959,403,203, that is almost K14 billion, to implement the above functions. 

The commission acknowledges, with gratitude, that its 2013 Budget has been increased, in fact, by over K3 billion, from the 2012 Budget. This translates to an increase of about 30 per cent from the current year’s Budget. This is a marked improvement from the 6.8 per cent increase in 2012.

Sir, I wish to inform the House that most of the additional funding is targeted at strengthening the commission’s presence in the Eastern, Northern, Western, Southern and Copperbelt provinces where it has offices. The provincial offices have proved invaluable to the work of the commission as they have brought its services closer to the rural communities. This is decentralisation in action.

Mr Chairperson, the commission published its Fourth State of Human Rights Report in 2012. This report, themed ‘Human Rights and the Environment’, provides insights into the linkages between human rights and the environment within an economic development perspective.  

Sir, in 2012, the commission also launched the Child Correctional Facilities Report after having inspected Katombora Reformatory School, Mazabuka Approved School and Insakwe Probation Hospital for Girls with Children in Conflict with the Law. The commission also inspected prisons and police stations in the Northern, Western and Eastern provinces. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, the commission will continue to investigate allegations of human rights violations and will also undertake prison and police cells inspections. This important exercise continues to highlight the many challenges facing Zambia’s police and prison services in regard to infrastructure, equipment, welfare of inmates and also the welfare of the prisoners and police officers themselves, which we should never forget.

The inspections are also meant to bring out any progress made to address these challenges. So, the commission sensitisation and human rights education programmes will also continue in 2013. Human rights education ensures that people are aware about their fundamental human rights so that they are more assertive of them. However, protection of human rights will continue to fall short of required standards and Zambians are deprived of the enjoyment of these rights if the country does not domesticate ratified regional and international instruments. 

Mr Chairperson, the commission’s overall policy for 2013 and beyond is to continue to contribute to the human rights discourse in Zambia. Recognising that human rights work requires consented effort, the commission will continue to collaborate and network with the Government and other stakeholders at various levels. In 2013, the commission will continue to strengthen the monitoring and evaluation system and measure its own performance. 

Mr Chairperson, I urge this august House to support the 2013 Budget for the HRC.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank the Vice-President for a brief, but concise statement on the HRC that is established under Part XII of our Constitution. 

Sir, there is a lot that can be said about this institution but, before I begin, it will only be prudent that I make a quick declaration of interest. My wife works in that institution. That notwithstanding, I would like to quickly make my comments. This organisation is extremely important to the livelihood of not only every citizen of this country but also of the globe.

Mr Chairperson, under Article III of our Constitution, we are reminded about the fundamental rights or freedoms of individuals and their protection and, under Article II, we are also reminded about the freedoms of conscience, expression, assembly, movement as well as association. These rights can be infringed by different interest groups depending on where they stand. I wish to remind His Honour the Vice-President that it is always good to walk the talk, especially were these freedoms of human beings are concerned. The freedoms of protection of privacy, homes and other properties are of fundamental importance. In this short discourse, I would like to demonstrate and remind the Leader of Government Business about how consciously or unconsciously his Government has directly violated these fundamental human rights and freedoms.

Mr Chairperson, it was through your ruling, sometime last year, that individuals of very well-known identity in my constituency sought to express themselves in reaction to His Excellency the President’s realignment of Chirundu and Itezhi-tezhi districts, by way of delivering a petition to the representative of the Government in that district, namely the District Commissioner. This expression was meant to be extremely innocent, and they wanted to make their views known in writing. Sadly, policemen from the Police Headquarters told these individuals that they could not present the petition to the District Commissioner. This matter was brought before you, and you made a ruling. You quoted extensively from the Constitution which is the grand norm that governs our country to the effect that the police was not in order by not allowing people to present the petition. You also advised that, given the circumstances, those people were free to seek legal recourse in the courts of law. 

Mr Chairperson, as though that was not enough, we saw how the UPND youths, here in Lusaka, who wanted to petition the Head of State and the Government, on what they deemed to be unwarranted harassment and dismissal of high court Judges, were brutalised. The young people were brutalised on Lagos Road which houses the office for the UPND as well as on Addis Ababa Drive. These youths were beaten up by the police under the command of one Charity Katanga, who is a lawyer for that matter. We have since submitted her to the court of law to answer for her actions. To me, this is the definite abuse and violation of the human rights I am speaking about. 

Mr Chairperson, the story does not end there. The UPND sought to have political gatherings. If there is any political party in the history of this country that has had the maximum benefit of political gatherings, it is the PF. From the time it lost the elections in 2006, the PF, under a fortnight, using its indelible human rights, began a trail of weekly public gatherings to seek the sympathy of the Zambian people to allow it to ascend to the position of governance were it is today. It is disheartening to imagine that the PF, using the Home Affairs Ministry, …

Mr E. C. Lungu: Wayamba.

Mr Nkombo: Sininayambe ba Lungu. 

… and the Police, denied, with impunity, the right of the UPND to have an innocent political rally in Kanyama. The police said that they did not have enough manpower to police our rally because many police officers were going to the Copperbelt to police an international football match. The police were, however, quick to say that if we assembled, they would meet us head on. I can assure His Honour the Vice-President that I was there in Kanyama because I was trying to protect my inherent human right to assemble. The police did not acknowledge the notice we gave them, and we saw them on television saying that the meeting had been cancelled. However, we still went to Kanyama and there were police officers, Your Honour the Vice-President, like you have never seen before. These were the police officers who ought to have been resting because they had had a bigger assignment to police a football match on the Copperbelt.

Mr Chairperson, whether one likes it or not, this is a violation of human rights. There is a need to admit that we are one people. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander. Let the people assemble when they so wish because that is their inherent human right.

Mr Chairperson, I want to quickly talk about prisons and police cells. I insist that the K13.9 billion or K14 billion that you have allocated for the Human Rights Commission to function next year is not sufficient. While there is a big leap from what it used to be under these people on my left hand side, you still need to give the institution higher capacity for it to perform its functions such as inspecting the holding facilities. We all know that not much has been done in terms of broadening space in prisons since Independence. We also know that there are many people who are incarcerated pending trial and have been remanded in prisons, and yet there is inadequate space. This is a well-known fact. You need to capacitate this institution so that the feedback to you will be more useful. The country is massive and the Human Rights Commission only has offices in a few areas of our country. These offices are insufficient and there is reason, next year, to ensure that this institution is capacitated. Just like we have argued that the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) should have representation in existing structures such as the local district councils, we should also call for the presence of one human rights officer in every district. For now, they can be housed at either the District Commissioner’s office or the district council.

Mr Chairperson, I want to end by saying that I do support this Vote. I am also urging my fellow hon. Members to support the allocation …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … because we draw a salary from the Human Rights Commission …


Mr Nkombo: … which runs our home and keeps us going.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the Vote on the Floor of the House in total. In supporting the Vote, I want to state that my debate will focus on how complaints are handled and the detention facilities in both prisons and police cells.

Sir, we all know that the Human Rights Commission plays an instrumental role in protecting our human rights, as citizens of this country. However, to my dismay, it has been discovered that our colleagues in the commission only concentrates on                                                                    urban and peri-urban areas. One wonders what wrong the people in rural areas have done to the commission. This has contributed to the violation of human rights by some police officers for a long time now.

Sir, in cementing my statement, I want to give concrete examples of the areas which have been visited by our colleagues from the commission. According to the Human Rights Report of 2010, the statistics shown are that in 2010, the commission received 1,172 complaints. I have been reliably informed that of the complaints received, 378 were from Lusaka. From Livingstone, there were ninety-one cases. From Mongu, the commission received 140 complaints. It received 190 cases from Kasama, 161 from Ndola and 212 from Chipata.

Mr Chairperson, the statistics, which I have given, are not from the countryside. Now, one wonders why our colleagues in this important commission, which aims at protecting the rights of the underprivileged, have failed to reach those areas. Whenever I talk to my colleagues from the commission, they say that they are unable to reach the countryside because of inadequate funding.

Sir, the hon. Members who have gone through the Yellow Book, which is before us today, will discover that last year alone, the commission was availed K10.7 billion. This year’s budget has steadily increased to almost K14 billion. In my view, the amounts of money which have been availed to the commission are enough to see it reach far-flung areas such as Chilubi, Miyombe, Kaputa, Shang’ombo and many other areas where our people need the protection of the commission.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, I believe that by next year, upon approval of this Budget by this august House, the commission shall make an effort of reaching those areas. You can imagine, from the time this commission came into being, it has never reached places like Chilubi and yet, in those areas, we have had issues involving unlawful detentions for quite a time. In the event that it fails to reach such far-flung areas, it means that the unlawful detentions will continue. The people out there are also Zambians who need the services of the commission.

Sir, the conditions in the prisons and police cells are extremely filthy. Nobody amongst us would love to use the toilets that inmates are using.

Mr Chishimba: Ulimukali iwe. Chimo naba Lungwangwa.

Mr Chisala: It has been discovered that in certain prisons, there are no health facilities. There are no sick bays or clinics, and yet the inmates are Zambians who are entitled to medical facilities. What do we need to do then? We have to make sure that we work hand in hand with the relevant authorities from certain ministries to ensure that each prison, at least, has a clinic, health post or sick bay nearby so that inmates can get medical treatment for various ailments.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, for a long time now, we have observed that inmates are not given the three meals per day which they are supposed to receive. In my understanding, these people are supposed to be given breakfast, lunch and supper. However, you will find that sometimes, they are only given two meals. That is not enough.

Sir, in certain prisons, you will find that even when they are given three meals, the food is not enough. Some of them go on empty stomachs. As a result, when they are told to do some work, they pretend to be sick. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge my colleagues to try and wear a human face when looking at certain issues. We are all potential prisoners. Tomorrow it may be you in prison.


Mr Chisala: Sir, I am requesting my colleagues to look into the issues which I have raised seriously. Let us try and change some of these unacceptable trends that have been going on for a long time.  I am very confident that, at the end of the day, this hardworking Government will definitely deliver on its promises and things will change for the better.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that it is imperative that our colleagues in prisons are given uniforms. I have been to Luingu, Samfya and Milima prisons and seen the problems that inmates have. Let us give prisoners the fair treatment they deserve.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Chairperson, I stand here to support the allocation for the Human Rights Commission. I would like to state that the Ministry of Finance should allocate more money to the Human Rights Commission in the next Budget because the K13 billion, which has been allocated in the 2013 Budget, is not enough. Despite the vastness of Zambia, Government officials should have visited our prisons and police cells in a bid to compile a list of requirements. Government officials should have gone around the country to see the conditions under which inmates are kept in prisons and police cells.

Sir, I am very disappointed with the way the PF Government is doing things. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: When the hon. Members of the PF Government were on this side of the House, they used to articulately talk about issues concerning the human rights of the people of Zambia. However, when the Zambian people voted for them, they changed.


Mr Ndalamei: When the members of the PF Government were in the Opposition, they were allowed to hold rallies hardly forty-eight hours after losing elections. It is disappointing to see that they are now preventing the Opposition from holding rallies. What kind of Government are they running?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: When did they become dictators because, when they were in the Opposition, they were democrats?


Mr Kampyongo: On a point or order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I am struggling to get what the hon. Member, who is debating on the Floor is saying, because he is hardly audible. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kampyongo: However, is he in order to insinuate that the Government has been stopping them from holding rallies when they were freely holding their rallies without interference in Mufumbwe recently?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, it was just unfortunate that they lost. 

Is he in order to mislead the nation?

The Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister is being contradictory because he said that Hon. Ndalamei was inaudible, and yet he heard what he said. 

Can you continue, Hon. Ndalamei.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, is it the PF’s policy only to allow parties to hold rallies when there are by-elections? If that is their policy, I wish to tell them that it is a shameful one.


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, there has been a lot of police brutality all over the country, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Ndalamei: … especially since the PF came into power. We are asking the Human Rights Commission to act quickly in response to the reports of human rights violations. For instance, the Barotse activists were arrested in Mongu and taken to Kaoma. People were not allowed to visit the activists at some point. The President of the UPND failed in his efforts to see the activists. What kind of human rights are those? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Eeh!

Mr Ndalamei: Is this the way the PF Government is going to run this country?


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, I think our colleagues need to change because they are tarnishing the image of the President who is a democrat.


Mr Ndalamei: Sir, when President Sata was campaigning, he said that when elected President, he would uphold the human rights of the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Eeh!

Mr Ndalamei: However, you, the people who he has put in positions are disappointing him and …

Hon. Opposition Members: Eeh!

The Chairperson: Order!

I am not impressed with the ‘eeh, eeh, eeh’ sounds that some hon. Members are making. 


The Deputy Chairperson: That is dishonorable. Can we just listen. 
You may continue, Hon. Ndalamei.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, I am hoping that our colleagues will change for the benefit of this country because, if they continue in this manner, they will bring problems to this country.

Mr Chairperson, the Human Rights Commission should follow up cases when they are reported to it. A lot of cases, which are reported to it, are never followed up. Some cases are not disposed of until the accused die in prison. 

Sir, the conditions of the prisons in Zambia are pathetic. The Government should provide more funding for the improvement of conditions in prisons and police cells. Some cells have no toilets. In such instances, inmates use buckets to answer the call of nature. That is very disappointing. I hope the PF Government will improve on its record of upholding human rights. 

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Chairperson, I am sorry I have a cough.


Mr Ntundu: Drank some water.


Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate of the budget for the Human Rights Commission.

Sir, I have always said that our colleagues in the PF, who are now sitting that side, removed from power our colleagues from the MMD who are now sitting innocently with us on this side.


Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I am very disappointed because in the short period that the PF has been in charge, the country has witnessed many violations of human rights. If those in Government continue to behave in the manner they are behaving all through their tenure then they will join the MMD on this side. The PF gave the Zambian people a lot of hope. They promised the Zambian people …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I apologise to the hon. Member who was on the Floor. However, my point of order is related to the upholding of human rights. Is the Government in order, in the name of upholding the human rights for the people of Lukulu, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: … not to work on the Katunda/Lukulu Road?


Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, initially, we were told that people were on site. Later on, we were told that they were mobilising. However, I wish to state that, presently, there is no one on site. Is that how human rights are upheld? Is the Government in order to violate the rights to movement of the people of Lukulu? 

I seek your serious ruling, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Well, I think that the Government has listened and that, next time, it will make sure that issue is attended to. 

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that when the PF was campaigning, it gave Zambians a lot of hope by promising a lot of change, which it has not given to Zambians. We expect to see change and the human rights you promised to the people of Zambia. We used to tell our MMD, who are sitting with us now, the same things we are telling you, but they used to be very defensive. Now, you are even more defensive than they were. If these people were as harsh as you are, you would not have been sitting that side.


Mr Ntundu: Let us call a spade a spade. The MMD allowed all political parties to campaign the way they felt like. What is the problem with you? You have already won the elections, but you still stop political parties from holding rallies? What are you scared of? 


The Chairperson: Order!

I think that we are being unruly. Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I want this Government to provide the change that it talked about. We were expecting to see more money allocated to the HRC so that the latter can deliver on its mandate. We shall not allow you to put this country into your pockets. 


Mr Ntundu: Zambians are watching you. Do not even be defensive. I am telling you what we used to tell our colleagues who are on this side of the House now. If you want to retain your power, you should listen to us. If you do not, three quarters of you or all of you will not be there in 2016. As UPND, we have promised Zambians that, when we take over power, we shall give them the real change that they are looking for.


Mr Ntundu: We shall not stop you from holding meetings when we take charge. In fact, we shall allow permits to be issued within a day so that you can campaign as much as you like. 

Sir, I was very happy to see Hon. Sakeni visit prisons. He should make those prisons habitable because he might find himself there when he gets out of power. 


Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I have already said, in this House, that whatever you do, a dossier is kept, no matter what time it takes. Those who will be there, will read it and see what you did for the people of Zambia. We do not want to come here to waste people’s time. Zambians expect us to give them what they deserve. 

Sir, I visited Kamfinsa Prison and found that there were detainees …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.{mospagebreak}


Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that Hon. Kambwili and I visited Kamfinsa Prison and found people who had been there for eight to nine years, but had not been tried yet. If Hon. Kambwili were here, he was going to agree with me. I am happy that he is now in Government and knows what is supposed to be done because he has all the information. 

Mr Chairperson, during the MMD Administration, we saw Mr Sata cry when he was tear-gassed. We knew that Mr Sata was innocent and, as the Opposition, we all rose and questioned why that was being done to him. We did not do that because we were from the Opposition, but because he is a human being. We also witnessed Mr Sata’s arrest at Chilanga Police.

Ms Kapata: On a point or order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to insinuate that Mr Sata cried when he was tear-gassed when he knows very well that tear-gas stimulates tears?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

To the extent that tear-gas stimulates tears, it is difficult to know whether he was crying or not. 

May the hon. Member continue.


Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, we saw the arrest of Mr Sata at Chilanga Police. As UPND, including our President, Mr Hakainde Hichilema, we condemned the MMD. 


Mr Ntundu: Why are you saying, “No”? 


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Proceed, and address the Chairperson. 

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, the UPND President fought for President Sata to be released from Chilanga Police where he had been detained.

Hon. PF Members: Question.

Mr Ntundu: That is a fact, and you have just forgotten because you are now in Government. In the UNPD, we are consistent. If any member of the MMD or PF is innocent, we shall stand and condemn their harassment in the same manner that we stood to condemn the MMD when President Sata was arrested. This is on record. It is unfortunate to note that the man who helped remove President Sata from Chilanga Police is being harassed by the people in Government. Why are you doing this? You are being unfair.

Hon. PF Members: Which one?

Mr Ntundu: Mr Hakainde Hichilema. You are being unfair to him.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Ntundu, do not engage hecklers. Just continue debating.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, let me remind our friends that what I am talking about is the truth. One PF hon. Member was trying to intimidate me. I am as fierce as lightening, …


Mr Ntundu: … and can never be intimidated. Let me assure you that the rainy season is a wrong time to intimidate me because I am a fierce man.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Allow the man who is as fierce as lightening to continue and the rainy season is around us.


Mr Ntundu: Sir, I am just reminding our colleagues that they should not forget that when we were all on the Opposition side, we fought to ensure that the then Ruling Party upheld human rights. We have been consistent and always strive to stand for human rights. No one is going to stop us. The UPND is the only party that is consistent.

Hon. PF Member: In losing.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

His debate does not call for your reaction. If you want to react, please, catch my eye and I will give you an opportunity to react. 

Continue, Hon. Ntundu.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, when the President was officially opening Parliament, he praised me …


Mr Ntundu: … and told me that I was the only person he praised because I am very innocent.


Mr Ntundu: He even promised that a university in Gwembe would be constructed, and I am still waiting for that to happen.

Let me urge our colleagues to be serious because the amount that has been allocated to the HRC is not enough. Let me suggest that you give the money that you intend to use for by-elections to the commission so that you do not hold the by-elections and buy the hon. Members of Parliament. Zambians are tired of by-elections and parties that buy hon. Members of Parliament. We did not come here to be bought, but to serve the people who sent us here.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes.

Mr Ntundu: So, stop buying us and be serious.

Hon. Government Member: How much do you cost?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If you think that he is worth something, then you should know the value because you are also an hon. Member of Parliament.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection. Our colleagues know that the UPND is consistent and, whether they like it or not, we shall hold them accountable. When you abrogate human rights, we shall stand to condemn you, as I am doing now. You are abusing the police. Let those people work professionally because they are trained to find a case where there is one. Do not force them to find a case where there is none.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: So, please, help the police to do their work professionally. I know a number of police officers who are professional. One of them was Zunga Siakalima, who stood his ground and declared that President Sata did not have a case to answer and that is why he was fired. Mr Sata is the President of this country now because of a police officer who was professional. Therefore, we want the police to be professional so that, when they are wrong, we shall condemn them. 

Sir, we want the HRC to be given more money. If there was time, I was going to move an amendment so that we give more money to the commission.

Hon. PF Member: Move it.

Mr Ntundu: Even now, I can still move it.


Mr Ntundu: If you do not do that, I have already warned you about the consequences. 


Mr Ntundu: Hon. Mukanga is one of the hon. Members I hold in very high esteem. I want him to be consistent and advise his colleagues that I am speaking the truth.


Mr Ntundu: Hon. Mukanga, your seat was here (pointing at his seat). This was your seat.

Hon. PF Members: Awe!

Mr Ntundu: You were not there.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Continue Hon. Ntundu.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to remind our friends in the PF that they are now in charge and should not be scared of anybody, not even the MMD. They are the ones in charge. However, they should give the MMD a forum to campaign since they did better than what they have done. In a very short time, they have done a lot of wrong than good.

Hon. PF Members: Question.

Mr Ntundu: If the PF Government will stay in power for twenty years, like the MMD did, then this country will be on fire because they would have messed up. The money they found in the reserve when the MMD lost was US$4 billion, but how much is there now? Where is the money? What have they done with it?

Mr Chairperson, if there was more time, I was going to say more things, but let me tell our friends that the HRC needs more money. I am going to move an amendment so that we give the commission K20 billion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the budget line for the HRC.

Mr Chairperson, this commission cuts across political boundaries and deals with issues that affect human beings regardless of their political and religious affiliation, creed or race.

Mr Chairperson, I will concentrate on speaking on behalf of the silent souls, whom I expect the HRC to take into account as it executes its duties. Those souls that are in Chifunabuli, Lupososhi, Chifubu and many other constituencies are the children. We all know that every human being has the right to legal representation, education, decent shelter and other things. It is my prayer that the commission advocates for these rights to be respected in a democratic environment like Zambia. Have we ever thought about and analysed the inhuman conditions under which our children in Chifunabuli Constituency are learning in schools? Most schools in this country are in bad condition. The HRC needs to address children’s rights and ensure that they are protected. It must also ensure that the children receive that which they are entitled to in very good quality.  

Mr Chairperson, children in Lupososhi Constituency walk long distances to access health facilities. These are the same children that we expect to be future leaders. It is said that the way you make the bed, determines how you sleep in it. The destiny of this country lies in how much effort we put in protecting our children’s rights so that they can grow up to be responsible citizens who will respect the rights of other children. 

Mr Chairperson, there is a wise saying that goes, ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’. Not too long ago, we witnessed the brutality of the police in the Western Province where people were detained while others were killed. This trend must stop, especially where people have the right to assemble and associate. They must be given the opportunity to enjoy their rights fully without interference or hindrance. 

Mr Chairperson, the HRC is a very critical institution. The fact that we are party to international and regional protocols means that we need to seriously look at them, interpret them and domesticate them because we are graded just like any other country in as far as the upholding of human rights is concerned. I am reliably informed that some of these protocols require us to have, at least, three commissioners on a permanent basis in the commission. My appeal is that we abide by this so that we can have, at least, three commissioners on a permanent basis, who can complement the efforts of the director and many others that are on a permanent basis. This is a requirement of the international and regional protocol to which we subscribe. 

Mr Chairperson, the visibility that was earlier referred to of the HRC is very critical. They are not visible. I am sure that mobility also comes into play. They need to be mobile in order to attend to issues of human rights. We should see a situation where the commissioner has a presence in all the districts and, if possible, all the constituencies, so that the people of Zambia can report violations and be represented when it comes to addressing issues of human rights.
Sir, it is in rural areas where issues of human rights are very difficult to talk about. It is in the rural areas where early marriages and child labour are perpetrated. Early marriages affect the girl child negatively. Most of them have ended up not finishing school because they are forced into doing things that they are not ready for. It is in rural areas where gender-based violence (GBV) is never talked about because of cultural values. These are issues that affect human rights, and yet the HRC is not present in these areas. It is only in provincial headquarters. 

This is what we need to work on. Let us do things differently in human rights matters and make the HRC visible so that it is seen to do that which it is expected to according to its mandate. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I would like to start by appreciating the fact that I have, at last, managed to catch your eye. 

Sir, if it was not for the lightening my friend from Gwembe talked about, I would have adopted his debate as my own. The business of lightening scares me. 


Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, it is common, in this House, to say that an allocation is not enough. However, it is important to show ourselves and all Zambians that the fact that we are passing these estimates does not mean that the best has been done. Obviously, it will be explained why very little money has been given. Definitely, for this kind of Vote, this allocation is not enough.  

Mr Chairperson, human rights matters are very important. The issues of human rights are the most common amongst people in this country. There are a lot of issues concerning human rights. The budget ceiling for sensitisation in the Yellow Book, even though it appears in two programmes, is not enough. This is because we still have a lot of traditional beliefs where wrong things are done to people and they are told to keep quiet. At the end of the day, very bad things are hidden. 

Mr Chairperson, the money that has been allocated to this commission is not enough. In fact, as I stated earlier, most of the allocations are never enough at all. I would like to suggest something that might sound really bizarre. I think that this commission must be turned into a ministry. Let us have a human rights ministry because there are many people with problems related to human rights. 

Mr Chairperson, the people who work for this commission are well-selected. I want to encourage that we should maintain the staff in the commission for longer periods in comparison to other commissions. We must not try to politicise the commission because it is good for all of us. We must be confident that when we take an issue to the commission, it will be looked at very fairly and not through the eyes of some political party. I think that we must completely remove that aspect from this commission because it will do us a lot of good. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, my reason for standing up to debate this particular Vote is that we do not have enough personnel and money for these people to follow-up cases. I have a concern to do with TAZARA workers who have not been paid their September and October salaries. I consider this a violation of human rights. How else do you expect them to survive? What kind of survival skills have we given these people who totally depend on their work for pay? How do you expect them to survive? If the Human Rights Commission was well catered for, it would have gone over to find out what is going on by now. These are the issues that grow big. Now, it looks easy because somebody can defend it. Last week, I asked a question regarding this issue and His Honour the Vice-President answered that they had no arrears. Well, I wish to inform you that they have not been paid their September and October salaries. Therefore, we must be concerned that the rights of our people are not being respected.

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Simbao: I will not refer to it.


Mr Simbao: I do not think you are going to detract me.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do not answer the hecklers.

Mr Simbao: I heard a lady’s voice here …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Just proceed with your debate.


Hon. Member: They are judges!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, these are some of the things we have been talking about. Just yesterday, in The Post newspaper, there was an issue to do with Home Affairs recruits who have not been paid for over eight months.

Mr V. Mwale: Ba Lungu!

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr E. C. Lungu: They have been paid!

Mr Simbao: No, that is the truth. Read yesterday’s The Post newspaper. It is not me who wrote the article.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, continue debating. Do not answer.

Mr Simbao: These are issues which should concern the Human Rights Commission. Are these the only people involved? Probably the answer is no. There are many others who are still not paid and you wonder how they are coping. How are they surviving? These are violations of human rights we are talking about. So, we need to ensure that we give enough money to the commission. We should also give it enough teeth to bite and enough employees so that they can correct issues to the satisfaction of the victim. If we just gloss over it and think we are doing justice, Mr Chairperson, that will not do us any good at all.

At the moment, it sounds nice to talk about it and the people concerned out there do not get any attention at all. I am saying this because it sounds funny now since none of us has issues. I hear somebody saying “old book, old book.” Wait until it gets to you, then you will cry. Yesterday, I was giving an example here to a friend of my mine who, when he was in favour of a certain party, he was so outspoken but, when he fell out of favour, he cried so much that no one went to him. The Human Rights Commission could not attend to his problems. This is what happens to many of us. This particular commission will become very important to many of us in future.

I heard my friend, Hon. Ntundu, warning us that everyone has a dossier, and I am saying wait until the UPND comes into power, then all of you PF Members will be sent to jail.


Mr Simbao: Wait until they come into power.


Mr Simbao: So, be careful and strengthen this particular commission so that you are safe when those people come into power, because they will.

Hon. Government Members: Aah! Never!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: May His Honour the Vice-President wind up debate.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the six people who contributed to debate on this Vote. There has been variable quality of input, I think. As I said, some good questions or some good points have been made, but the general point, which has been made by several of them, is that more money is needed. Of course, more money is needed if you define it loosely, but it is not inside the fiscal space. Every Vote needs more money in a certain way of talking. Otherwise, you have to be reasonable and give some more priorities and others according to the policies of your Government. You talk about as not walking the talk, and yet this Vote has a 30 per cent hike in the Budget. This is walking the talk.

Furthermore, we do not believe in throwing huge goblets of money at individual Heads at one time because they just lead to all sorts of leakage and disruption. 30 per cent a year for five years would be an enormous amount of money and would be organically usable.

I just have one or two points raised by Hon. Bwalya who mentioned the case of children’s rights. He is the only debater who did. Well, for his benefit and for that of other Members, the HRC has established the Office of the Commission for Children. It concentrates on children’s rights on a daily basis. The mandate of the Office of the Commission for Children is drawn from the mandate of the commission to investigate, educate, research and inform. Hon. Members may, please, bring to the attention of this Commission for Children any matters that concern them. We are very strong on children’s protection and it is there precisely for that purpose.

Sir, with regard to the criticism by Hon. Chisala on the inspection of prisons and police cells being confined to Lusaka or, at least, the urban areas, in 2012, the commission inspected facilities in the Western and Luapula provinces. Whenever resources allow, the commission visits all areas as it can. In 2008 and 2009, for example, the commission inspected facilities in the North-Western and Northern provinces with a follow-up in 2010. 

So, hon. Members can incidentally access reports of the commission at When you go to Google, just type Human Rights Commission, it will lead you straight here.

Mr Chairperson, I thank the House for the support and …

Hon. Government Member: What about Hon. Ntundu?

The Vice-President: I do not answer questions from people who are no longer here.

Hon. Government Members: He is there!

The Vice-President: Oh! He is here.

Mr Ntundu was not seated in his seat.

The Vice-President: You cannot sit there. I will not answer your question.


Mr Ntundu returned to his seat.


Mr E. C. Lungu: He is in his seat!

The Vice-President: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

Mr E. C. Lungu: He is moving and getting closer to the MMD.


VOTE 14/01 – (Human Rights Commission – Headquarters – K13,959,403,203).

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 001 – Annual Human Rights Conferences – Nil. Last year, there was a provision of K20,000,000 allocated for this event. By the name itself, Annual Human Rights Conferences is supposed to be an annual event. I wonder why we have not allocated anything for next year. Have we stopped conducting these annual conferences?
The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Kalaba): Mr Chairperson, this provision has been suspended in 2013. This will be catered for by sponsoring agents and co-operating partners.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4028, Activity 039 – Medical Scheme – Nil and Activity 041 – Security and Caretaking – Nil. There were allocations in the 2012 Budget, but why are there no allocations in the 2013 Budget?


Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, this provision has been provided for under Head Office General Administration because the supply of the services is based in Lusaka and the administration will be done centrally at the head office.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 001 – Insurance – K53,800,000. May I know why insurance has suddenly surfaced here. What was happening previously when there was no allocation for this activity?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, this provision is meant to cater for the payment of insurance premiums for the commission’s vehicles based at head office. In the 2012 Budget, it was provided for under the general administration budget. In next year’s Budget, it has been provided for separately to create more accountability.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote34/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 26 – (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting – K91,104,878,302).

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Sakeni): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy debate to support the 2013 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. 

As the House may be aware, our ministry plays a vital role of providing information on Government activities and development programmes. Information remains a cross-cutting issue which supports developmental activities undertaken by all other sectors of the economy. Without information, the intended beneficiaries, especially the rural masses, would not meaningfully support Government programmes.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has been allocated a total of K91.1 billion, out of which K7.2 billion is for personal emoluments, K25 billion has been allocated to digital migration, while K22.2 billion has been allocated to the establishment of provincial broadcasting studios, leaving a balance of K36.6 billion for other programmes.

Sir, the ministry has to plan for the creation of offices in the new districts which came on board in 2012 and will also require both human and financial resources. The structure of the ministry has to be realigned and equipment procured in an effort to respond to the challenges which have come up as a result of the realignment of the districts. The non-restructuring of the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) in districts has resulted in inadequate and unqualified human resource in many district offices. Naturally, this has had an effect on the general performance of the ministry. To resolve this challenge, the ministry has embarked on facilitating the filling of all vacant and frozen positions under ZANIS.

Mr Chairperson, on media reforms, my ministry intends to continue with the media law and policy reforms in 2013 through the formulation and revision of media-related policies such as film, broadcasting and media policies. The formulation and revision of these policies will provide a conducive legal and policy framework for the media industry. This will enhance press freedom that will ultimately rekindle public confidence in the public media.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is working on the Access to Information Bill, famously known as the Freedom of Information Bill, which is aimed at curtailing the culture of secrecy in the provision of services and management of public resources. The culture of secrecy has been known to promote corruption in the public sector in that people have no right to demand for information on transactions involving public funds. By implementing the access to information law, the ministry will contribute significantly to the fight against corruption and will provide an open environment for access to information. However, this will not be done at the expense of national security.

Sir, as part of the media reforms, the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) will also become operational in early 2013. To this end, K8 billion has been set aside for operations of the IBA. In the meantime, works are in progress at the Mass Media Complex, where the secretariat will be housed. Discussions to finalise the structure of the IBA are on going with Cabinet Office. The board should be appointed within the first quarter of 2013. The Zambia National Broadcasting Cooperation (ZNBC) Board will also be put in place most likely in the first quarter of 2013, once Parliament ratifies the nominees.

Mr Chairperson, in trying to address the limited access to information, especially in the rural areas, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, directed that broadcasting stations be established in all provincial centres. Therefore, an initial sum of K22.2 billion to partly meet the cost of constructing these stations has been put in this Budget.

Sir, to increase media outreach for purposes of explaining Government programmes, the ministry is increasing its investment in mobile video vans in the districts. The equipment is targeted at rural areas, where there is a huge information gap. When all the districts are fully staffed, this equipment will enable them to increase the dissemination of information through documentaries and the distribution of printed materials. The Government has allocated a total of K1.5 billion under the department of ZANIS for this programme. The Government, through ZNBC, has also installed ten frequency modulation (FM) transmitters across the country under Phase I since last year and is remaining with ten FM transmitters which are earmarked for installation before December this year. Phase II will commence next year under which seventy-five FM transmitters will be installed countrywide.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry acknowledges the need for the decentralisation of the print media and the provision of information in local languages. Two pilot projects on the printing presses have reached an advanced stage. The Chipata Printing Press Project will be commissioned by the end of this year. In Kasama, the contract for the construction of the printing press building has been awarded. The contractor is on site, and the works will be completed in 2013.

Sir, on digital migration, the current wave of digital broadcasting, as mandated by the International Telecommunication Union, requires that countries move to the digital platform by 2015. The policy guidelines on the implementation of digital migration have already been approved by Cabinet. The Zambia Public Procurement Agency (ZPPA) has since advertised the tender for the procurement of digital migration equipment in the public media. As indicated earlier, the ministry has an allocation of K25 billion to this programme.

Mr Chairperson, in an effort to strengthen the operations of the public media, the Government has allocated K2 billion for support to the public media institutions. This support is intended to allow the public media to modernise their operations and be able to compete with the private media. I am cognisant of the fact that the allocation is actually not enough.

Mr Chairperson, our ministry is determined to see the development of a professional media sector that delivers social and economic information to the public in a socially responsible manner. Our support also includes developing an enabling environment in which the media can operate freely. I, therefore, urge my colleagues, both on the left and right, to support our budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to debate the subject on the Floor of the House. From the outset, allow me to state that looking at the needs of our public media outlets, this budget is very meagre. This budget does not show any serious intent by the Government to quickly transform our media to come in line with other media outlets which are broadcasting with modern equipment.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to begin my debate on a very firm note of reminding my colleagues in the PF that one of their key election campaign promises was that once they were voted into power, they would liberalise the airwaves for many community and commercial radio stations to broadcast right across the width and breadth of this country. After one year of the PF being in power, this has not happened. To some, this appears like a failed election promise. However, I cannot conclude that far because they still have a lot of time to make amends.

Mr Chairperson, this House has passed the IBA law. I was glad to hear the hon. Minister saying that the IBA law is going to be operationalised. However, what I find disturbing is a lack of succinctness in what the hon. Minister was saying. There is no clarity as to when exactly this will happen. For instance, the hon. Minister has said that the IBA law will be operationalised some time early next year and that, during that period, the IBA board could be appointed. All the statements he is making, in my view, are speculative. This is not the first time such promises are made. We were promised that the IBA law would be operationalised in June of this year. The year is now ending without the IBA law being operationalised. We were told earlier that the IBA law would be operationalised in January and, today, we are being treated to a menu of ‘could’. Such occurrences instill some serious doubts in me as to whether what is being said will actually happen. We would like to see the IBA law being operationalised and the IBA board being put in place so that it can issue and renew licences. We are aware that there pending issues out there. Media outlets have applied for various licences. I am aware that Radio Phoenix and Q FM, for instance, have applied for licences for national coverage. To-date they have not been given those licences. Why is this the case? 

Mr Chairperson, this is contrary to what the PF promised the people. Leading in making these promises was President Sata, himself. Almost on every commercial and community radio station he spoke on, he never forgot to remind the particular radio station and listeners that once voted into power, the PF would liberalise the airwaves. What has gone wrong now that the PF is in power? Why can the Government not allow Q FM, Radio Phoenix or any other radio station to broadcast nationwide. Moreover, the Government knows that the public broadcaster, ZNBC, is limited in terms of its coverage as a result of poor funding. Why is the Government mute on the subject of giving countrywide broadcasting licences to those who have applied for them who want to help bridge the needs gap in terms of national coverage? Is this ‘don’t kubeba’?  

Hon. PF Member: Meaning?

Mr Mweetwa: You know the meaning, yourselves.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Concentrate on your debate.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, we really need the IBA law to be operationalised and the IBA board put in place so that it can also monitor the content of the material that is broadcast.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to also state that we would like our colleagues in the PF to provide a definitive roadmap regarding the enactment of the Access to Information Bill into law. This was one of the subjects on which they composed very exciting campaign songs. Once our colleagues came into power, they promised, time and again, even on the Floor of this House, that this Bill would be brought to Parliament. Sadly, we have been seeing goal posts changing. Of course, explanations have been given to the effect that the Government is still consulting. Who is the Government consulting for it to take this long? 

Mr Chairperson, I think that time has come for words to mean something. We are not going to come and sit here to be given different positions by the hon. Minister every time this matter comes up. It was a ministerial promise that, by now, the Access to Information Bill would have been brought to this House. Unfortunately that has not happened. So, we hope that on account of the Government’s current promise, next year, the Access to Information Bill will come to this House. This Bill must be brought to this House because it will not only help the media personnel in their day-to-day transactions of seeking information, but will also be crucial in the fight against corruption.

Mr Chairperson, we have heard from the hon. Minister, which is not a new promise, that the Government plans to set up provincial television stations. However, my interest is: Why should the PF Government have the zeal to quickly talk about putting up provincial television stations without firstly dealing with the challenges that exist within the current operations of the public media? For instance, at the moment, in Choma, which was declared provincial headquarters, the ZNBC signal is extremely bad. In many parts of the country, including Ndola, the ZNBC signal is extremely poor. Now, these PF colleagues are talking of coming up with provincial stations without first dealing with the malaise that is within the existing public media infrastructure. 

Mr Chairperson, I am aware of the challenges which the ZNBC, for instance, is faced with. It is faced with the challenge of operating with archaic equipment. You must be aware that, at the moment, almost all the ZNBC transmitters, except in Mansa, are operating at 10 per cent of their capacities. Even when we talk about digital migration, we know that this not a month’s or year’s programme. It is a programme that will take more than two to three years. However, people out there cannot wait for that long. They need the ZNBC to improve on its signal. 

Mr Chairperson, therefore, this budget should have been more than what it is. My research has shown that the ZNBC requires, at least, ten transmitters to be replaced in order to enhance its transmission signal. I know that in his response, the hon. Minister may say that we are doing away with analog technology and migrating towards digitalisation. However, digital migration is not going to solve our transmission problem this year or next year. It is a long-term process. In the immediate term, what do the people of Choma and other places do to access information? The hon. Minister knows that buying ten transmitters that we are talking about only costs about K30 billion because they are about K3 billion each.

That is more important than recklessly spending money on uncalled-for deliberately-crafted and engineered by-elections that the people out there are tired of, allocating funds to entities that are not constitutionally recognised such as the First Lady’s Office and allocating funds to build a house for a sitting President when there is room to build a house for him when he retires or, at least, towards the end of his term, if you insist on doing that. I hope those are not your priorities. You are prioritising your own interests at the expense of the people you promised to serve. Thirty billion kwacha, surely, is not money that this Government would have failed to source within the current Budget so that it improves the operations of the ZNBC. At the moment, the ZNBC is the most reliable information outlet in terms of coverage because it touches many places, but the signal is extremely poor in many areas.

Sir, allow me, once more, to commend the management of the ZNBC for, at least, there being a difference, now, in the way they cover the news. I would like to commend the management of the ZNBC and the PF ….

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: … for allowing the ZNBC to operate freely, without interference, per se, when it comes to news. I am also obliged to commend the management of the ZNBC for recruiting many young journalists. As a journalist, I have seen many young journalists who were working for various media outlets, but are now working for the ZNBC.                          I think that this has helped journalists to have freedom in doing their work. Therefore, I urge the corporation to continue giving them this freedom. Since the ZNBC is now under very capable hands, its management should let these professionals do their work. We do not expect the media interference that has been there before to continue. 

Sir, my praise for the ZNBC does not mean that the institution has met our expectation. It is still far below our expectation. We have seen this situation in which an Opposition leader, for instance, will come up with some issue against the Government but, when you go to watch the news, what is shown first is the reaction, instead of what prompted the reaction. There is still room for the ZNBC to improve but, so far, it is encouraging. I wish my good friend, Hon. Lubinda, had remained there because he would have come out publicly and said, “We would like the media to operate freely.”

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson:  A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Choma Central in order to make such remarks about who should be in which ministry when he knows that is the prerogative of the Head of State, and that my colleague, Hon. Sakeni and myself, are very comfortable in the portfolios that we hold currently? Is he in order to bring that kind of debate into this House?

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that you were being dragged into his debate, he was out of order.

Continue, hon. Member for Choma Central.

Mr Mweetwa: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

Allow me, now, to briefly talk about media freedom. The media, said to be the fourth estate in a democracy, is a marketplace of ideas where conflicting views go to fight for acceptance by the citizens, and a platform to enhance citizens’ participation and make people aware of what goes on around them and promote accountability and transparency.

Mr Chairperson, the President of Brazil, during the opening of the International Anti-Corruption Conference, which I was privileged to attend on 7th November, 2012, stated that it is better to have a noisy media than a quiet one because the world we want to build can only be built on transparency.

Mr Chairperson, under the PF Government, there have been serious attempts to stifle the media. The University of Zambia (UNZA) Radio has been threatened with withdrawal of its licence if it did not broadcast in a particular way. The least that has happened is to limit the extent to which UNZA Radio is broadcasting. 

In conclusion, Sir, allow me to state, once more, that it is encouraging to see the public media unfold and allow divergent views, especially in their news. Under the current hon. Minister, it is very evident that the public media is performing well, and I know that he will take it to higher heights.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha (Keembe):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate. I am passionate about this ministry.

First of all, let me say that I support the budget for this ministry. However, the K25 billion that has been allocated will not be enough to achieve digital migration. It will be very difficult in Zambia to communicate with other countries, especially in the border areas. Therefore, I urge the Government to review this budget and allocate more money to this ministry. We should meet the international digital migration standards by 2015. We have very little time left. So, it is necessary that this ministry is supported.

Mr Chairperson, I was disappointed with the hon. Minister when he delivered his policy statement because he did not mention what is going to happen to all the analogue equipment in the country. Is there a plan by the Government to help the people on how to migrate from analogue to digital? Is there a budgetary allocation for the people in rural areas to access digital signals? The ministry should have come up with a plan on digital migration for hon. Members to take to the respective constituencies.

It is also important for the Government to start sensitising the people on how to migrate. This programme has been going on for a long time. When the MMD was in power, digital migration was about to be concluded. Therefore, it is necessary for the PF Government to conclude it and allow the people to start getting ready for the change-over.

Mr Chairperson, it is also very important to know the system that the Government has chosen to use for digital migration. Is it the European, on which many hours have to be spent to get there, or the Japanese, Brazilian or American? It is important for us, hon. Members of Parliament, to know, debate and advise the Government. For example, we have neighbouring countries that are using certain systems that are not going to be compatible with our own systems in the event that we chose a different one.

Mr Chairperson, in supporting this Budget, I would like to request the hon. Minister of Finance to take another look at it because this area is very important. The dissemination of information to our people is important in our quest to reach the millennium development goals (MDGs). It is equally important in the dissemination of information on the policies of the PF Government. The ZNBC is a flag carrier for all of us in this country. Therefore, it should never be turned into a political tool, and I want to speak about it.


Mr Mushanga: Chanda Chiimba!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I always watch the ZNBC, particularly all the news but, unfortunately, there is a tendency to turn towards using it as a political tool.

Mr Mpundu: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I have so much respect for the hon. Member on the Floor. The hon. Member who spoke earlier than him praised the ZNBC and other media institutions on how they are conducting themselves. I had the privilege to go round all the media houses to find out how they operated then and now. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you raise your point of order, please?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, my point of order is that when we are contributing on issues of national affairs, we should come with clean hands. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to insinuate that the ZNBC, in its current form, is being used as a political tool when, in fact, it was, together with other media houses, abused to extremes during his reign as hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services?

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member debating is in order because the current hon. Minister has a right to reply. 

Hon. Member on the Floor, you may continue.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I am trying to help this Government to go beyond whatever mistakes that were made in the past. That is important for our country. I am not debating on petty issues. I want to see if we can move beyond the petty issues. 

Mr Chairperson, in Rwanda, the media created a national disaster because it was turned into a political tool. I see a situation here, and want to warn the Government that it is not necessary to do that. There was an item on the ZNBC in which it was alleged that a PF cadre had been killed by UPND and MMD cadres in Rufunsa. I was very shocked when this news came out because, immediately such a situation is broadcast, you start to raise the tempo in the country for the PF, UPND and MMD cadres to start fighting. That is what I am talking about.

Hon. Member: Chanda Chiimba.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: I am not talking about the past mistakes. I am talking about us going forward. This kind of reporting is going to bring tension and acrimony in the country. In this case, it was important that the case be investigated before apportioning blame. Now, the case is being investigated and the ZNBC is quiet on whether it was the UPND or the MMD that killed this cadre. However, everybody knows that the cadre was killed when he was sharing money with others. This is what I am trying …

Mr Matafwali: On a point of order Sir.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: You can raise points of order, but I am telling you the truth.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue debating, please.

Mr Matafwali: On a point of order, Sir.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, no matter what we do, …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Matafwali: Mr Chairperson, I rise on very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member debating in order to debate an issue which is before the courts of law? 

I need your serious ruling.

Hon. MMD Members: Which court case?

Mr Mushanga: Bauleni.

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member continue and take that into account.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I think that it is necessary for us to understand that when a case is in police hands, it is not the same as being in court.

 Mr Chairperson, it is, therefore, important for us to ensure that whatever is being aired as news on the ZNBC does not instigate strife in the country. It will help us to move the country’s agenda forward.

Mr Chairperson, let me now turn to the issues that the hon. Minister has spoken about, and that is taking FM signals into the districts. This is a programme that has been running for some time now, hon. Minister. It is necessary for us to complete it, and the best way to do it is by moving our digital migration programme in a better and faster manner. We have wonderful men and women at the ZNBC, which is the flag carrier for the digital migration project in the information sector, who need the support of the Government and more money so that they can deliver what the Zambian people have mandated them to do.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to support the budget for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency. 

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting and all the media houses are very critical in ensuring that the Zambian people receive the right information at the right time and in the right format. 

Mr Chairperson, we can use the media as the mouthpiece to inform the Zambian people about the Government’s agenda, the development projects that the Government is implementing, the development in the democratic society and anything that the Government intends to provide for its people.

Mr Chairperson, we have just been debating the HRC a while ago, and it is important to note that to every right is a responsibility, and that we all have the responsibility to ensure that we do not bring about chaos. Yes, if we get excited and want to report everything, it might just work against us in the Republic of Zambia. It is, therefore, my appeal to those who are charged with the responsibility of disseminating information to help build the peace that we have enjoyed for a long time …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … and which we should not take for granted.

Mr Chairperson, the other aspect is that of radio and television (TV) reception in Luwingu District of the Northern Province. We have used shortwave for a long time. When people want to listen to a good programme on air, that is when the reception becomes very bad. I appeal to the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting to give priority to the rural areas so that they can also receive information at the right time and in the right format and quantity. Newspapers reach a day or two days after they have been printed, when people in urban areas and peri-urban areas have already been availed with the information.

Mr Chairperson, my message is that the people of Lupososhi need very good radio and television reception. Unless we do this, it will be very difficult for us to sell ourselves as a party or Government, and convince them that we mean well. Those that are bent on disseminating wrong information may take advantage of this if we do not use the machinery that we have to give the people the right information. The Access to Information Bill is very critical. The earlier it will come, the better because it will help us to fight corruption. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, when people have access to information, they will be able to make meaningful and timely decisions and help in the fight against corruption. The Access to Information Bill will provide a platform for discussion and will help the Government disseminate information and allay certain fears that have been going round.

Mr Chairperson, this Budget must be implemented in such a way that will bring benefits quickly to the people, especially the benefit of digital migration that has been referred to so that the people in rural areas can begin to appreciate the work of the ZNBC and the Government through the provision of good radio and television reception in rural areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to add a word in support of the Vote for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. 

Mr Chairperson, while I support this Vote, let me inform the Government that the people of Kalabo have been very expectant for a long time despite whatever has happened. 

Mr Chairperson, time is natural, it is never artificial. What is artificial is the clock. The mind is also natural. This means that you cannot educate somebody on time because each person is born with a sense of time.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, when a Government is elected, like the PF Government was elected – Initially, the PF had put forward its promises and the weight of those promises enabled the party to be elected. 

Mr Chairperson, when you are in Kalabo, and you move away from the Boma area, you wonder whether you are in Zambia or South Africa because, in Kalabo, we enjoy the radio reception from South Africa.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the ears are natural. Therefore, they easily pick any sound. Those who are heckling should give me time to explain because none of them has ever been to Kalabo.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we enjoy Channel Africa. Even when I am in Lusaka, I communicate to the people of Kalabo through Channel Africa …


Mr Miyutu: … because we have a Government which does not know that there is Kalabo.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, they only knew that there is Kalabo at the time of elections. I do not know how they knew about it.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, they told us that things were going to be better. Our radios are still picking Channel Africa. We are failing to pick the ZNBC. When it comes to the allocation of resources, they forget about the people of Kalabo. It is high time we had leaders who have human hearts. We do not need people with stone hearts.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, a human heart will always behave humanely. A heart of stone does not have the character of a human heart.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, it cannot feel the pain of a person. I do not know what happens to human beings who are privileged to be in these positions. I do not know whether it is those rooms they call offices which make them change so that they forget about other humans and resort to doing other things. Forty-eight years after Independence, you cannot pick the ZNBC channel in Sihole. When do you expect the people of Sihole and Sikongo to pick these channels? 

Mr Chairperson, when they presented the Estimates, I expected to see more money go to the refurbishing of studios. If I have one child, and I am failing to provide three meals to this child, why should I continue producing more children?


Hon. Opposition Member: No you cannot start doing that.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, logically, I cannot do that.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I must first sustain the life of the single child. The Government is going to create ten studios when they have failed to maintain one, and it is assuring us that the ten studios are going to provide information. What about the one studio they have failed to maintain?


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, when I am in Kalabo, I know that there is only the ZNBC in Lusaka. If there is any other station, the hon. Minister will tell me about it. When I am in Kalabo, I know that the Government has failed to deliver because in twelve months, there has been no change. I have gone round Kalabo and, in twelve months, there has been no change. The ZNBC signal can only be picked at the Boma. 

Mr Chairperson, they have to know that time goes in such a way that you cannot see. That is why my grandfather who was a hundred and one years old used to tell me that he could beat me …


Mr Miyutu: … because he did not realise that time had gone, and he was almost in the evening of his life.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, time is going and, because they are enjoying being in those offices, they will never realise that the five years is ending. At the end of the five years, they will have harvested nothing, and they will take lies to Kalabo, again.

Mr Chairperson, we need a serious Government. The people of Zambia have suffered so much, and we cannot blame our poor performance on the mistakes of past governments. We should work at correcting those mistakes so that we enhance the livelihood of people, especially in rural areas. We should not talk about the people in Lusaka only. We should talk about people in rural areas also. They are just as human as the people in Lusaka. How different are they? The skin is the same. The only difference is that we do not have certain services in the areas where we live.

Mr Chairperson, information is very important. I remember, during the Kaunda era, when I was at Lyumba School, we used to have radio broadcasts. Looking at where we are coming from, it is expected that we should have improved our broadcasting services. We should have gone beyond certain levels. The ZNBC should have been able to send signals to the furthest school bordering Shang’ombo. Sadly, there is no signal even in Shang’ombo.

Sir, we should take these issues being raised about the ZNBC seriously. Before you bring in new things, you should firstly use what you have properly. Those who are telling you about digital migration have already succeeded. They are telling you to do what they have come up with in order to improve their system. If we are still struggling with the old system, I believe that even with the new system, we are going to fail.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we used to have mobile cinema shows during the UNIP era. When I was in Lyumba, I used to go to school to watch them. We also used to receive a publication called Liseli in Lozi. Liseli means light. This publication was being produced by a Government which was concerned with the livelihood of its people. 


Mr Miyutu: We never used to buy it. It used to be distributed in schools. 

Hon. Government Member: Aah!

Mr Miyutu: I am talking about Lyumba and not any other place. The Liseli which I am talking about used to be distributed in Lyumba.

Sir, today, the Liseli is no longer there. We do not have any other source of information. Surely, when are we going to have a good source of information? People in Kalabo say that the kind of life they lived in the Kaunda era was better. They are saying that because they are not seeing anything good in this era.


Mr Miyutu:  Mr Chairperson, the mobile video shows should not just be reflected in the Yellow Book because the trend in Zambia is that we are experts in writing such books. Unfortunately, for this year, even the writing had so many errors.


Mr Miyutu: This year, I do not know how we are going to describe the writing. It is not good at all. Maybe, we no longer have good writers. However, what I know is that Zambians are good at writing and not implementation. 

Mr Chairperson, we are really interested in these mobile video vans. These vans should not be for use in Lusaka only as has been the trend. They plan using rural areas, but implement whatever they plan in Lusaka. They take advantage of the people in rural areas because they cannot confront them face to face. Since it is the people in rural areas who sent us here, I will take this Yellow Book with me to the rural areas so that I can tell them that the Government has failed to implement its programme on boreholes which it had allocated funds to. I will also tell them that …

Hon. Government Member: You go and tell them!

Mr Miyutu: … you will not do what you have written in the Yellow Book because that is what you do.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, almost a month ago, I advised the PF Government to stop the culture of saying “Don’t kubeba” because they are leaders. You do not have to hide anything from the people you are leading.


Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: If you hide things from the people you are leading, you will not be able to match with them.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Mr Miyutu: After all, I am helping you because if you do not know the problems the people in the rural areas are facing, you will be surprised when they will tell you that they are not going to vote for you.


Mr Miyutu: So, I am helping you. In fact, you should thank me for what I am saying.


Mr Miyutu: Sir, the programme of putting up provincial television stations is a good one. The goodness of what is said can only be seen when it is implemented. If you promise your child that you will bring a sweet and you do not, next time, the child will not believe what you say. A child only believes in a good father who provides. A father who does not provide, is not a good father.


Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, next time, we want the Budget to cater for activities concerning rural areas. 

Hon. UPNF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I almost forgot. There is an item regarding foreign tours which has been allocated about K850 million. The people who benefit from these foreign tours are not in Kalabo.


Mr Miyutu: I do not believe that they are even in Kaputa. I do not think that K850 million will benefit the people in Lukulu. When Europeans come to Africa as tourists, they go back with something which will help improve their continent, but Zambian tourists bring nothing to the country.


Mr Miyutu: Tour after tour, Zambia continues going …

Hon. Opposition Members: Down!

Mr Miyutu: I thank you, Sir.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, let me start by responding to the contribution of the last speaker who provided the best drama of the day.


Mr Sakeni: I thank him for his support. He kept everybody laughing and happy. That is good my brother. I have actually taken note of most of your points. You talked about how Kalabo needed good reception in terms of radio and television. That is the cry of everybody. I am happy that you brought that point out. What you are asking us to do is what we are trying to do. It is already in the pipeline.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mweetwa talked about the IBA structure. As I said, it will be in place come January. We are almost through with the renovations to the building which will house the IBA.


Mr Lubinda: Mweetwa listen!

Mr Sakeni: With regard to the liberalisation of the airwaves, since we came into power …


The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members on my right, please, allow the hon. Minister to wind up.

Mr Sakeni: … we have issued more licences than our colleagues who were there. You should appreciate the fact that for the past twelve months, we have issued about eleven licences. Of course, I heard the lamentation by some hon. Members about the need for us to issue licences for those who want to cover the entire country. That is what we will need to look at. I do not have the facts on the ground. Maybe, they applied for the licences before I went there.

Sir, Hon. Shikapwasha talked about the European type of digital migration. That is the standard we are going to adapt. We have already started sensitising our people. Our team has been to Lusaka and the Copperbelt. In December, they will go to the Northern, North-Western, Eastern and other provinces.

Mr Chairperson, for the analogue sets, I think there will be a programme to make sure that we get rid of them in a systematic manner. There is no need to worry. You left the system. I am happy that you indirectly acknowledged that politicising the media, like you did, was not good for a country …


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sakeni: … and that you have the best experience over this issue. I commend you for indirectly acknowledging that fact.

Mr Chairperson, in short, I would like to thank my colleagues for supporting the Vote.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 26/01 – (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services – Headquarters – K11,823,255,104).

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K1,002,412,672. What has necessitated the increment of about 300 per cent in that ministry?

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Kapeya): Mr Chairperson, the allocation is meant for maintenance and service charges for the two floors occupied by the ministry. The decrease, not increase, is due to the introduction of ZESCO prepaid meters in place of the contributory billing system.


The Deputy Chairperson: Just to guide the hon. Minister, the 2012 Budget provided for K258,000,000 while the 2013 Budget provides for K1,002,412,672. The question is: Why is there an increase? May you, please, provide an answer.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Many advisors end up confusing the hon. Minister who prepared the answer.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I think we are looking at a different paper. The Budget briefs that I have are on Activity 003, which is Office Administration. The one you are looking at is Transport Management … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


The Deputy Speaker: Order!

As I guided, we are dealing with Programme 5001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K1,002,412,672. The current Budget is K258,000,000 while the one for 2013 is K1,002,412,672. May you provide the answer.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the observation. It appears there were two separate calculations which were added together, giving K234 million for the 2013 Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, what we want to know is why there is an increase? 

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, it has been combined with the one on top.

Hon. Opposition Members: Which one?


Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, budgets are a very serious affair, and I am finding it increasingly disheartening and disturbing that hon. Ministers are not taking these matters seriously. There is an increase from K258 million to K1,002,412,672 and we want to know the reason for this. We want this money to be used in the rural areas. Could we have the answers.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, hon. Members should know that civil servants’ travel allowances are supposed to increase with effect from 1st January, 2013, and that is why there is a huge increase.

I thank you, Sir. 

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5012, Activity 003 – HIV/AIDS Awareness, Prevention, Treatment, Care and Support – NIL. There is no provision to this activity in 2013. Can the hon. Minister explain whether the activity has been discarded or it is being covered elsewhere.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, the Programme has been spilt into three under Activity 19, Activity 720 and 730.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5012, Activity 719 – HIV/AIDS Workplace Policy – K80,000,000. There was no allocation this year. So, what is this allocation all about because I would have expected you to have a workplace policy by now?

Mr Kapeya: The provision is meant for the revision if the HIV/AIDS Workplace Policy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): may I have clarification on Programme 5026, Activity 008 – Staff Welfare – Nil. Why is it that there is a provision for this year, but none for next year?


Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, as you are aware, the issue has been debated at length. This activity will be provided for by a bank to be established.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 26/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 26/02 – (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services – Zambia News and Information Services – K15,303,542,633).

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5068, Activity 003 – Procurement of Mobile Video Vans – K1, 500,000,000. I have noticed that there is quite an increment. Could the hon. Minister tell us whether the procurement for 2013 will cover all ten provinces?

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, the provision is meant to cater for the whole country. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 019 – Transport Management – K1,641,600,000. May I know where the insurance cover for the motor vehicles under this Transport Management will come from? 

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, this provision is for payment of spare parts, repairs and insurance of motor vehicles, purchase of fuel, oil and lubricants. The variance is due to the introduction of control measures in the management of transport.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5002, Activity 010 – Exhibition at Trade Fair and Agriculture and Commercial Show and Activity 731 – Reconstruction of Show Stand – K200 million. For Exhibition at Trade Fair and Agriculture and Commercial Show, there is no provision for this year. On Activity 731, an amount has been provided for the reconstruction of the show stand when they will not be exhibiting this year. Can you assure us that we will not see you exhibiting at next year’s shows because you have not provided money for that, and yet you are renovating the show stand? Why is there this anomaly?

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5013, Activity 010 – Exhibition at Trade Fair and Agriculture and Commercial Show was required to meet logistics to facilitate the department’s participation at the Zambia International Trade Fair and Lusaka Agricultural and Commercial Show. This activity has been moved to Programme 5002, Events, which is just under General Administration. Activity 731 – Reconstruction of Show Stand – K200 million. This provision is required to facilitate the rehabilitation of the Lusaka Show Stand.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5012, Activity 003 – HIV/AIDS Awareness, Prevention and Treatment Care and Support. This year, there was a provision of K50 million and, next year, there is no provision. Is ZANIS not at risk?

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required for the cost of fuel, allowances for staff involved in the showing of mobile videos …


Mr Kapeya: Wait a minute, I am explaining.

Hon. Opposition Members: On HIV/AIDS?

Mr Kapeya: Yes!


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister is providing the response.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, this has been provided for under Headquarters, Programme 5012, Activity 720 – HIV/AIDS Awareness Campaigns – K65 million.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 019 – Transport Management – K1,641,600,000. Where is the provision for insurance of these vehicles, considering that transport management is supposed to cater for insurance as well?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, insurance is under that provision as well.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 26/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE  26/03 – (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Service – Press and Planning – K63,978,080,563).

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 005 – Foreign Tours – K916,175,001 and Activity 023 – Training – Nil. One would think that Training would demand more attention than Foreign Tours, of course, notwithstanding that foreign tours are also important. Would I know why the figure for training is not there.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, this activity has been moved to Programme 5013, Activity 713 – Orientation Workshops for Press Liaison Officers – K52,573,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5051, Activity 002 – Appointment of Independent Broadcasting Authority Board. Last year, there was an allocation of K50 million and, despite the assurances that this board may be instituted, I cannot see the provision for this activity. Could I know why.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairperson, if my colleague can go to Programme 5005, Activity 715 – Independent Broadcasting Authority, he will find that there is K8,000,000,000. I had even mentioned it in my Policy Statement.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 26/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46 – (Ministry of Health – K2,053,383,286,118).

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)


The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 27th November, 2012.