Tuesday, 17th March, 2020

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Tuesday, 17thMarch, 2020

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

_______

 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, as you are aware, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, has issued two Statutory Instruments (SIs) aimed at strengthening measures to combat the spread of the COVID-19, otherwise known as coronavirus.

 

Further to the circular issued by the Office of the Clerk to all hon. Members, I now wish to advise the House that hand sanitizers have been placed in all entry and relevant points within Parliament Buildings. Accordingly, all hon. Members and staff are encouraged to take full advantage of these facilities.

 

I thank you.

_______

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

KOPA/MPIKA ROAD IN KANCHIBIYA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

 

242. Dr Malama (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development

  1. whether the Government is aware that the Kopa-Mpika Road in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency has become almost impassable following heavy rains; and

 

  1. if so, what urgent measures are being undertaken to address the problem to avoid Kopa being cut off from Mpika.

 

The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Mwale): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the state of the Kopa/Mpika Road in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency following heavy rains. The Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), has instructed three routine maintenance contractors to ensure the Kopa/Mpika Road remains passable.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, allow me to thank all those that are praying for this country and against –

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise a very serious point of order. Sir, I am aware that the hon. Minister of Health has issued SIs No. 21 and 22 of 2020 pertaining to the outbreak of the coronavirus. He has further issued instructions that members of the public should ensure that they are 1m to 2m apart in their interactions.

 

Mr Speaker, as a citizen of the Republic of Zambia who does not want the Coronavirus to spread, I would like to find out whether this House is in order to allow us to break the instructions that have been given by the hon. Minister of Health to be 1m to 2m apart in all interactions. In this House, we are only centimetres apart, thereby, breaking this particular instruction. What precedence, therefore, are we setting for the public if we are in the forefront breaking the laws pertaining to the coronavirus? Is the House in order to continue sitting contrary to instructions from the hon. Minister of Health?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Livune: We need to adjourn immediately, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: I do appreciate the importance of the point of order and the implications, of course, in view of very recent developments to combat, as it were, the coronavirus. Due to the importance of this subject, I will reserve my ruling so that I render a measured response. That is my ruling.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, I appreciate all those that are praying against the coronavirus in this country. I also thank our health workers who are participating in ensuring that our country is safe. I also acknowledge the leadership that is being provided by the Government.

 

Sir, when people walk out of this august House to go around the country, they can see clearly what the Patriotic Front (PF) has done as regards infrastructure. The PF Government has done a commendable job.

 

Mr Speaker, the Kopa/Mpika Road affects five chiefdoms,and these are: Senior Chief Kopa, Chief Luchembe and Chief Kabinga. In Luapula Province, they include Chief Nsamba and Chief Bwalya Mponda.

 

Mr Speaker, the residents of these areas are now cut off from the rest of the country due to the bad state of the Kopa/Mpika Road. Is the hon. Minister able to give a timeframe as to when he will intervene? I talked to Senior Chief Kopa and Chief Luchembe this morning andthey, along with the other chiefs and the residentswould like to know the time frame within which they can use these roads.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, instructions have already been issued to the three routine maintenance contractors working on this road. They are starting with immediate effect because instructions have been issued. However, it might be difficult for them to do meaningful work because it is still raining in that part of the country. Should conditions permit, we should see this road being worked on as soon as possible. Instructions have been issued already.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, there are many impassable roads in the country and in Serenje in particular. Has the hon. Minister made a comprehensive programme to gather information on which areas have roads that have become impassable?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we do have a programme. In fact, a portion of the road that the hon. Member for Serenje is referring to is under some programme to be maintained so that it is passable. It is the same for others in many parts of the country where we have received reports of roads getting damaged as a result of heavy rains.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Mr Speaker, looking at the situation in Kanchibiya and many other parts of the country, what measures have been put in place to ensure that staff that go to do feasibility studies are not misconstrued as gassers or people that have gone to attack villagers as was the case in one constituency recently? Has the hon. Minister made sure that his staff is safe when going to do these feasibility studies?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, the conversations are rather loud.

 

Mr Lubinda entered the Assembly Chamber.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we have encouraged our employees to report themselves to traditional leaders in rural areas who will help to properly introduce them to members of communities. This way, they will not be vulnerable to those that take the law into their own hands and beat up people they suspect to be gassers. We have also encouraged our employees to work with the Ministry of Home Affairs and the police as they go out to carry out their duties in areas where they could be vulnerable.

 

Sir,we are concerned about what is happening out there in rural areas, but corrective measures have been undertaken and so far, we have not got any further reports of attacks other than the report the one the hon. Member referred to. Elsewhere, things have moved smoothly and we hope that they will continue to move that way.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister have an inventory of roads throughout the country in similar state with the Mpika/Kopa Road? If so, hon. Members of Parliament would like to know the time schedules of when the Government is likely to respond. The state of the Mpika/Kopa is no different from that in Chama District.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we do have an inventory. Reports keep coming to us as and when bridges and roads get damaged as a result of heavy rains. Although we are on top of things, I know that we may be experiencing delays in responding to some damages to bridges and roads because we do not have sufficient funds to respond as quickly as we would love to.

 

Sir, we are aware of the situation and each time something happens, we get reports through various means such as the Office of District Commissioner, local authorities and the RDA offices in our provinces.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, the Kopa/Mpika Road is a very important because it is an economic road for the people Kanchibiya.It is used to transport agricultural products. Considering that we will soon enter the harvesting period for agricultural products, what words of assurance does the hon. Minister have for now so that the people of Kanchibiya, especially those under Chief Kopa, can harvest their crop knowing that they will still have access to markets which are not within the area where production takes place?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, my word of encouragement to the people of Kopa/Mpika and all those affected is that this working Government will ensure it repairs the damages caused to this road by heavy rains. We have already appointed routine maintenance contractors who are Binansa Enterprise and General Suppliers, Rhomoba Contractors and Kantumoya Construction Limited who have already been assigned with the task of repairing the damages caused to this road. As and when they work, they will be able to claim what they would have used from the RDA and the NRFA. They should be able to give them some funds. There is a plan in place. We hope that they will get to the ground and work on this road to ensure that all the people affected can get back to their normal lives. We will not have to wait until harvest time to see that this road is done. We should have this road fixed soon.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister is aware that the entire country has been facing this problem after the heavy rains we have been blessed with. Is the ministry setting aside a sinking fund where it can get money to patch up roads and make them passable whenever such emergencies occur? If so, why has the hon. Minister not yet set aside such an account?

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) is already in place. It was established by this House to manage finances and financing to the road sector. The NRFA collects toll fees from all toll gates that we have established in the country and it raises a lot of money on a daily basis. Those monies are later made available on a monthly basis to the Road Development Agency (RDA) and the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development to make payments that the Government has to honouron contracts. This is what is happening and therefore, there is no need to duplicate and create another fund or provide a sinking fund. The NRFA is doing a good job and is on top of things.It is providing monies as and when it is required. The NRFA may not be giving the Government everything that is required, but it is providing whatever is collected from the toll gates. Maybe the problem is that there are just no sufficient funds. Otherwise,the NRFA is doing a good job by putting together all the monies to fund the road sector.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister–

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, this is the people’s House.It does not belong to any single hon. Member. It is the people’s House and everyone is present here courtesy of the people of this country.

 

Mr Speaker, outside the precincts of this assembly, there is an excessive number of policemen making Zambians who wished to come and attend to their business fail to do so. What goes on in this House is the people’s business. Today, as you can see, there is not a single soul in the visitors’ gallery and the Speaker’s gallery, yet there are people outside who wished to come and witness their business.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nkombo: If what we, on the left, have been informed is true, then I might ask whether this House is in order to be discriminatory by not allowing members of the public, who are the owners of the House and have come from all sorts of places, to come and witness their business?

 

Sir, I seek your ruling on this matter.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, I am sure you were present earlier on when your colleague, the hon. Member for Monze Central and Leader of the Opposition, raised this very point about the new legal regime brought into force through the Statutory Instruments (SIs) issued by the hon. Minister of Health. The implication of thoseSIs, in part, is to prohibit gatherings of over fifty persons, not to mention the proximity that the hon. Member for Monze Central earlier on raised in a point of order whose ruling I reserved. That is the sole reason this particular measure has been taken. In the absence of these measures, of course, members of the public would have been allowed to witness this very seminal sitting. As regards the presence of police officers, of course, that is a matter of law and order. It does not fall within my discretionto determine when or when not to deploy security officers. I am sure those who have made the deployment have made their own assessment, which I am not competent to question.

 

Dr Malama: Mr Speaker, before I was disrupted, I was taking about the time it takes traveller to commute from Chief Kopa and Chief Luchembe to Mpika and vice versa. The Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ), through the taxpayer, has invested over US$24.3 million in the ZamPalm Project. The oil which is being produced from Chief Kopa’s area is taking almost three days to be moved by heavy vehicles from the plantation to Mpika Town. Similarly, the Bangweulu Wetlands Management Board (BWMB) has invested over US$18.3 million for conservation and tourism. It takes three to four hours for smaller vehicles to travel a span of 60km. Will the contractors take into consideration the heavy duty vehicles that use Kopa Road and make the road usable for heavy vehicles?

 

Hon UPND Members: What is your question?

Dr Malama: I can see that the hon. Members from the United Party for National Development (UPND)have a lot to say.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the Government regrets that business is disrupted as a result of this road not being in good condition. The Government’s wish is to make sure that all roads are motorable and business is conducted in a very normal and good way to enhance productivity in the country. These contractors will do an all-round job that will help transporters of all sorts of vehicles to use this road without challenges.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

ASSISTANCE TO FLOOD VICTIMS IN CHINSALI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

 

243. Mr Mukosa (Chinsali) asked the Vice-President:

 

  1. when the Government will render assistance to the residents of the following areas in Chinsali Parliamentary Constituency whose houses and crops were washed away following heavy rains:

 

  1. Mbesuma in Chilinda Ward;

 

  1. Mulolo, Chintankwa, Mushinda, Kapeta, Subi, Lupambo, Mpundu Subi and Misonta in Chambeshi Ward; and

 

  1. Moonga, Mulenga Swali, Ntomombo, Kabosha, Kamweo, Isaac Chibingo, part of Mwalule and Nshitima in Mikunku Ward;

 

          b.  how many families are affected; and

 

           c. what assistance will be rendered in terms of the following:

 

                  (i)        shelter;

 

                 (ii)        food; and

                

                 (iii)       medical supplies.

 

Mr Mukosa: Mr Speaker, I would like to withdraw the question as the issues its raises are being handled by the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President after I had a discussion with her.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

_______

 

BILL

 

SECOND READING

 

THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA (Amendment) BILL, 2019

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 

Hon. UPND Membersleft the Assembly Chamber.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker:Order!

 

Hon. Minister of Justice, just give me a minute.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker:Order!

 

The Sergeant-at-Arms, assist my office. Ensure a smooth exit.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. PF Members: Go, go!

 

Hon. UPND Members:Tiyeni!

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice may continue, please.

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I am grateful to you for allowing me to present the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019 for Second Reading. As I do this, I would like to say that we, the representatives of the people who volunteered to be elected to serve them, today, are putting ourselves to a constitutional test based on Article 8 of our supreme law which provides that we, as a people, shall govern ourselves based on national values and principles which include morality and ethics, patriotism and national unity, democracy and constitutionalism, human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non-discrimination and finally, good governance and integrity.

Today, each one of us who was elected will be tested on our morality and integrity. Shall we rise to the occasion and be in the institution to which we were elected to debate the people’s law or will we show lack of patriotism and shun such an important process?

 

Sir, as you are aware, today is the culmination of a three year long journey of reviewing the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016. All of us gathered here have been following and participating in the various stages of the whole process. While some participated directly and formally in all the various forums, others participated indirectly and informally. Nonetheless, all the voices that were expressed on this matter were loud and clear.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members on the right, you can see clearly that your colleague, the hon. Minister of Justice, is distracted. This should not be so. This is very important business we are transacting, and virtually, he is addressing the nation.

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, for the record, let me make a brief rundown of the process that has brought us where we are today. On 9th November, 2016, a Private Member’s Motion urging the Government to amend the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016 was presented to Parliament. The intention of the amendment was to address the identified lacunae and inconsistencies in the Constitution. A good number of Parliamentarians from either side of the House ferociously debated the Motion. During the debate, a number of inconsistencies, including the following were pointed out:

 

  1. the interpretation of the petition of the election of the President;

 

  1. the interpretation of fourteen days in the election petition of the President;

 

  1. the interpretation of hearing a matter before a court;

 

  1. the Constitutional Court’s jurisdiction to hear matters of human rights;

 

  1. the transitional arrangements during a Presidential election petition;

 

  1. the exclusion of Members of Parliament from sitting in district councils; and

 

  1. the provision for the vacation of office by Ministers.

 

Sir, I would like to emphasise that these matters were not raised by only a single party in Parliament. These matters were alluded to by representatives of the ruling party, the Patriotic Front (PF), representatives of Opposition political parties, including the United Party for National Development (UPND), the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD) and independent hon. Members of Parliament. They all contributed to the debate and did so as every hon. Member of Parliament would be expected to do, in a very spirited manner. At the end of the debate, the Motion received ninety-one votes in favour while fifty-two opposed it. Based on the resolution of Parliament, as well as the expression of views by the Judiciary, the Legislature itself, political parties, other political players and the legal fraternity on identified inconsistencies and lacunae, the Government was obliged to commence the review process.

 

Sir, Article 79 allows for any part of the Constitution, except Part III and Article 79 itself, to be amended by Parliament with two-thirds majority. For the sake of clarity, let me say that the amendment of Part III and Article 79 are the only two items of the Constitution of Zambia that require a referendum. This means that in this particular instance, Cabinet could have proceeded with presenting an amendment Bill directly to Parliament without any ado. In keeping with the sovereign authority which is vested in the people of Zambia, which may be exercised directly or through elected representatives or institutions as enshrined in Article 5 of the Constitution, Cabinet decided to enhance consultation. It decided that more people should be involved through further consultations.

 

Mr Speaker, in January 2017, the Ministry of Justice announced the commencement of the Constitution amendment process and called for submissions on identified lacunaeand inconsistencies. The ministry accorded members of the public one full year to make submissions. During this period, the Ministry of Justice received an overwhelming number of submissions from various stakeholders such as the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), the Judiciary, political parties, Government ministries, provincial administration, Cabinet Office, the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), the Office of the Auditor-General, all commissions, the National Assembly, faith-based organisations, civil society organisations and individuals. During the whole of 2017 and 2018, the nation was kept constantly updated through several ministerial statements presented to Parliament by the hon. Minister of Justice.

 

Mr Speaker, in May 2018, Cabinet was ready to proceed with considering the draft Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2018. However, a few days before that, the Zambia Centre for Inter-Party Dialogue (ZCID) requested His Excellency the President to defer the consideration so as to accord political parties more time to conclude their dialogue consultative processes. The Government obliged and granted the request.

 

Mr Speaker, what followed was the holding of the National Democratic Stakeholder Summit (NDSS) which brought together all political parties, the Church, civil society organisations and other stakeholders in May, 2018.

 

Sir, arising from this summit, political parties under the auspices of the ZCID and chaired by a representative of the United Party for National Development (UPND) retreated to Siavonga where a number of important resolutions, including the need to amend the Constitution, were adopted.

 

Mr Speaker, key among the resolutions was the need for institutional reforms …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, resume your seat and give me a minute. Hon. Members, you see, the hon. Minister is sending non-verbal messages to me to maintain order from Cabinet Ministers. Surely, I do not think I should intervene so often. You may have a lot to say because this is a very important subject and the nation is watching. So, give him chance. He is your man.

 

 Hon. Minister, let us try again.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I am grateful. Key among the resolutions that came from the Siavonga summit were the need for institutional reform, separation of powers, judicial independence, tolerance, freedom of assembly, civility in politics and electoral reforms. 

 

Sir, at the end of 2018, during one of the ministerial statements by the hon. Minister of Justice to Parliament, proposals were made by the Opposition for the Constitution refinement process to be protected by a legal framework. The proposal, for emphasis, came from a Member of the Opposition parties in Parliament. This position had also been made by several political commentators outside Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker, in response to this, in April 2019, Parliament passed the National Dialogue Bill, 2019, which was subsequently assented to by His Excellency the President, Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, on 9th April, 2019, as the National Dialogue Act No. 1, 2019.

 

Sir, the objective of the Bill was to facilitate the implementation of the Siavonga resolutions of all political parties in Zambia. Those resolutions related to constitutional and institutional reforms, separation of powers and judicial independence, as I alluded to earlier.

 

Sir, following the enactment of the National Dialogue Act, 2019, the National Dialogue Forum convened and held meetings from 24th April, 2019, to 15th May, 2019. The forum adopted the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2019, which was published through Gazette Notice No. 660 of 2019 on 21st June, 2019.

 

Sir, the Bill was gazetted without any comments from Cabinet because Cabinet wanted to avoid taking the route of the white paper, where it imposes its position on the people. Rather, it chose to be guided by the views of the majority. After more than thirty days of its being gazetted, the Bill was presented to Parliament on 2nd August, 2019, for First Reading.

 

Mr Speaker, as Cabinet, we are sincerely grateful and society is indebted to you, Sir, for having allowed your Select Committee which you appointed to scrutinise the Bill and to receive further comments from members of the public to hold twenty-six meetings spread over a period of seven weeks.

 

Sir, as the record will show, this was unprecedented as, normally, Committees of such nature would sit for a maximum of ten days and over a period of two weeks. In this particular case, you permitted your Committee to sit for twenty-six days, spread over a period of seven weeks. This was a response to the pressure from the public to make submissions to your Committee.

 

Sir, at this point, on behalf of the Government, I would like to thank more sincerely, firstly,members of your Committee for their dedication to duty. They put in a lot of work, including working over lunch hour on numerous days.

 

Sir, secondly, I would also like to thank all those who made submissions to the Ministry of Justice. The ZCID deserves to be commended for organising the NDSS and for bringing all political parties to its Siavonga meeting.

 

Mr Speaker, thirdly, I will be failing in my duties if I do not also thank all political parties in Zambia for their active participation at the Siavonga meeting. All hon. Members of Parliament are also commended for their active participation throughout this process and, especially at the forum and in their Committee.All individuals who actively participated at the forum, those who made submissions to the Committee of Parliament, the Church and other faith based organisations, the traditional leaders and the labour and student movements all deserve commendation for their active participation.

 

Mr Speaker, during these three long years, the country has been subjected to numerous misrepresentations on the intention of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019. Some individuals, organisations and a political party made comments which initially were to do with the process. They questioned the process. When Parliament gave the process a legal framework, they changed and turned to content. When your Committee considered the content, they changed yet again from content to scepticism and mistrust.  

 

Sir, I am delighted that as I present the Bill for Second Reading today, the issue that has remained on the lips of those that have been opposed to this process is that they cannot trust the Government to effect amendments to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019 to give effect to Cabinet positions that were announced by the hon. Minister of Justice on Friday, 13th March, 2020.

 

I am delighted, Sir, because, indeed, now that the only issue that remains is that of doubting Cabinet on its sincerity to present amendments, this issue is very short-lived. This doubt is very short-livedbecause today, as I present the Bill for Second Reading, I have already given notice to Parliament on all the amendments that Cabinet intends to move to give effect to the recommendations of the Committee.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, with your permission, even before Parliament listens to the presentation of the Report by the Chairperson of your Select Committee, I wish to assure you that I have presented numerous amendments and I would like at this stage to appeal to all those who have been raising issues to pay particular attention to this presentation. The amendments include the following:

 

Amendment of Article 4

 

 Mr Speaker, our amendment will give effect to the recommendation that the word “multi religious” in Article 4 should be replaced with the word “Christian”.

 

Amendment of Article 47: Electoral Process

 

Sir, when His Excellency the President, Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, addressed Parliament on 6th March, 2020, he alluded to this very important matter. His Cabinet agrees totally on the need to provide for representation of women, youth and disabled persons here, in their Parliament. Therefore, under the instruction of Cabinet, I have presented an amendment to give effect to this progressive proposal.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: We, in Cabinet, have taken it upon ourselves to lobby all hon. Members of Parliament across the aisle, on the left, the right and those in the centre. Our appeal to them is that let us heed the call of the Zambian people. Let us heed the call of the disabled people in our country. The call by youths…

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: …and women that they too deserve to sit in this, their Parliament.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda:Sir, their message is very clear that since independence, only those with means and ability to campaignhave been the ones who have gathered in this House andfor all these years have purported to represent the youth, women and disabled and yet the outcome is that the youths, women and the disabled have continued to remain poorly represented.

 

Sir, this is a clarion call to the conscious of every one of us who went out there and appealed and campaigned to come into this House to represent them. That amendment is one for which all of us in Cabinet have been charged to campaign, and campaign we shall.

 

Amendment of Article 63: Functions of Parliament and the National Assembly

Sir, President Edgar Chagwa Lungu’s Cabinet joins the Committee in its concern with regard to the proposed amendment of the National Assembly’s function of approving debt before it is contracted and approving international agreements and treaties before they are acceded to or ratified by the Executive. Cabinet has, therefore, charged me, and I have put notice of amendment to retain the current provisions of Article 63 (2)(d) and (e) of the Constitution. Put simply, Cabinet is of the strong view that Parliament should continue to approve debt before it is contracted.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Parliament, the people’s Parliament, should continue to approve accession and ratification of international treaties and agreements before the Executive gives them assent.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: In addition, President Edgar Chagwa Lungu has instructed that even the withdrawal from international agreements and treaties shall only be done after approval of the people’s assembly, the Parliament.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Repeal and Replacement of Article 68: Election and Composition of the National Assembly

 

Sir, Cabinet subscribes to the view that we retain Article 68 in the Constitution so that the qualification for election to Parliament is retained in the Constitution while allowing for delimitation by the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) as provided for by Statute.

 

At this point, Sir, I would like to indicate that to ease the process of maintaining the number of constituencies in our Constitution, Her Honour the Vice-President will, before we move to the Committee Stage of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019, present the recommendations of the ECZ for Parliament’s approval of their recommendation on the delimitation exercise.

 

Sir, the report is ready and Her Honour the Vice-President will do the needful to present that report for this Parliament to approve their recommendations. That is to avoid the speculation that there is any intention by the Government to introduce constituencies only in certain areas. I hope that when Her Honour the Vice-President presents that report, the House will not have empty benches, but that every hon. Member of Parliament will come in to defend their interests. I have no doubt that that day the House will be filled to capacity.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: This is the reason I said we are putting ourselves to a constitutional test on morality and integrity today.Shall we sit in when the matter affects us directly for short term gain or shall we sit in and stand up for long standing benefits that do not necessarily accrue to ourselves, but to the 17 million Zambians? That is the test we are facing today.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Repeal and Replacement of Articles101, 102, 103 and 104: Election of President, Disqualification for Run-Off, Election Petition and Transition Period before Assuming Office

 

Sir, Cabinet has presented an amendment to retain Articles 101, 102, 103 and 104 so that a President should be one who receives more than 50 per cent of the votes cast. This is to reject the proposal of the NDF to introduce a Coalition Government.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda:Mr Speaker, as a matter of fact, need I remind us in the House that it was under the charge of President Edgar Chagwa Lungu that the majoritarian system of electing the President was introduced in the Constitution of Zambia. We, therefore, as Cabinet, intend to ensure that we maintain that system.

 

Amendment to Article 114: Functions of Cabinet

 

Sir, Cabinet concurs that it must continue to recommend to the National Assembly as I said earlier, accession to or ratification of international agreements and treaties. Like I said, I have also proposed amendments to that effect.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Sir, Cabinet is not looking at the Constitution with myopic eyes of trying to win cheap and narrow political mileage. Rather, it is looking at a sustainable constitutional arrangement that will support the desires of the majority.

 

Mr Speaker, in that respect, with regard to the proposal of the insertion of Article 117(a), namely the re-introduction of the position of Deputy Minister, Cabinet has the following to say: The voice of the public on this matter was loud and clear. Cabinet would have, therefore, been extremely surprised had the Committee recommended otherwise. I have, therefore, included an amendment to reject the proposal for the re-introduction of the position of Deputy Minister.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: In case there are one or two who are listening to us on radio, let me make it clear that Cabinet has instructed me to move an amendment to reject the proposal for the re-introduction of the position of Deputy Minister. We enjoin all hon. Members of Parliament representing the whole country, from Livingstone to Kaputa, ...

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: ... from Mulobezi to Milenge, ...

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: ... from Zambezi to Malamboand ...

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: ... all those who were elected by the people of Zambia to represent them here, to be in Parliament so that all of us agree that we reject the proposal for the reintroduction of the position of Deputy Minister now and forever.

 

Repeal and Replacement of Article 165: Institutions of Chieftaincy and Traditional Institutions

 

Sir, Article 165 of Act No. 2 of 2016 is a matter that received numerous submissions. Most stakeholders, including traditional leaders themselves supported the proposal for Parliament to enact legislation for the recognition and withdrawal of recognition of chiefs. In the recent past, the country has heard of many court petitions arising from the interpretation of Article 165. Today, there are many cases of people who are enthroning themselves as chiefs without any challenge. As a result, there have been numerous court petitions. The chiefs themselves have argued that unless this anomaly is rectified, the institution of chieftaincy is at risk of going into extinction. For the sake of protecting the sanctity and integrity of chieftaincy in the country, Cabinet has agreed with the proposal of traditional leaders and the recommendation of the Committee. I, therefore, have already put a notice of amendment to support this position.

 

Amendment of Article 184: Permanent Secretaries

 

Mr Speaker, I have presented an amendment to Clause 65 so as to retain paragraph (d) of Article 184 which provides for Permanent Secretaries (PSs) to be responsible and accountable for proper financial management.

 

Amendment of Article 168: Participation in Politics

 

Sir, the Committee recommended that a public officer who seeks election to political office should resign, at least, six months prior to the elections as opposed to the two years that were recommended by the NDF. Cabinet could have recommended an even shorter period of resignation. However, in the spirit of being a listening Government, I have been instructed to present a notice to amend Clause 66 by replacing the words “two years” with the words “six months”.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Repeal and Replacement of Article 189: Payment of Pension Benefits.

 

Mr Speaker, the public discourse around this Article was extremely emotionally charged. Issues of human rights, protection of the aged from destitution as well as prudent management of pension schemes and the protection of jobs were all raised. The Committee’s recommendation that an employer should continue to retain an employee on the payroll until that person's benefits are paid in full is, therefore, not surprising. After all, every employer is by law required to deduct from their employee’s emoluments their pension contribution. It, therefore, goes without question that an employer who fails to provide the pension benefits due to the employee should be held to account since the money in the pensions fund is the employee’s money.

 

Mr Speaker, I have, therefore, moved a notice to amend Clause 67 so as to retain the provisions of Article 189so that a pensioner whose pension benefits are not paid on the last day of employment shall be retained on the payroll.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: After all, this provision safeguards the pensioners who, if not paid their dues, become beneficiaries of the Government Social Cash Transfer Scheme. As such, this provision is in the interest not only of the pensioner, but also of the Government and society at large.

 

Amendment to Article 193: Establishmentof National Security Services and Functions

Sir, contrary to allegations that this amendment is intended to either do away with the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) or to subsume it into the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), Cabinet hereby reaffirms that the FIC created by Act No. 46 of 2010 shall continue to exist notwithstanding the renaming of the DEC as the Anti-drugs, Economic and Financial Crimes Agency. To this extent, I have moved an amendment to delete Clause 69. This is so because the change of name of the DEC shall be caused through amending the law that establishes the DEC and not through the Constitution.

 

Amendment of Article 213: Bank of Zambia

 

Mr Speaker, finally, a record of the proceedings of the forum and that of the Committee of Parliament will show that BoZ proposed that the details of the functions of BoZ be relegated to subsidiary legislation as it obtains in the sub-region and also in keeping with international best practices. Nonetheless, the majority of the shareholders were opposed to this recommendation alleging that it was striping BoZ of its critical functions such as the printing of the currency. Some even went to the extent of alleging that Cabinet now wanted to start printing money, that hon. Ministers, the Vice-President and His Excellency the President would sit and start printing money.

 

Sir, this was the allegation. The allegation was that probably once a year, His Excellency the President would sit in an overcoat with all his hon. Ministers in overcoats and get a machine and start grinding the machine to print money. What an allegation! Like I said, if it is a question of trust, today as I stand, that is a very short-lived doubt because, for the sake of safeguarding these critical functions of BoZ and allaying all these suspicions, some of which are not tenable at all, I have presented an amendment to Clause 71 so as to retain all the detailed functions of BoZ in the Constitution.

 

Mr Speaker, I wish to conclude by stating that we in Cabinet are in agreement with many of the recommendations of the Committee and shall give them effect whenever it is needed. Some of them do not need any amending as they have been agreed to by the Committee. I say this because there have been others who have been asking why the Government or Cabinet has not commented on all the clauses in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019. The reason is that some recommendations were already agreed to. So, there is no need for Cabinet to repeat them. Those that need amendment such as the ones I have referred to above shall certainly be amended.

 

Sir, Article 61 of the Constitution provides that:

 

“The legislative authority of the Republic derives from the people and shall be exercised in a manner that protects this Constitution and promotes the democratic Governance of the Republic.”

 

Mr Speaker, Article 62(2) also states:

 

“The legislative authority of the Republic is vested in and exercised by Parliament.”

 

Sir, in simple terms, what this means is that even after a referendum has been conducted, the result would only be given legislative effect by Parliament. No matter what views are exchanged outside Parliament, for them to take legal effect, they have to be adopted by Parliament. In which case, it follows without discussion that the function before us is one that no hon. Member of this House can afford to underplay or ignore. We are dealing with the Supreme Law of the land, and all of us are expected by our constituents and the country at large to take active participation in debating here on the Floor of Parliament and not outside Parliament. The debate must take place here where we, the elected representatives of the people, are assembled.

 

Sir, I wish to assure you that as Cabinet, we shall listen attentively to the debate. We are ready to support all progressive ideas that shall be presented before this House. I, therefore, make this earnest appeal to all my colleagues that we approve the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 to be read a second time.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda (Nominated): Mr Speaker, I rise to present the Report of the Select Committee appointed on 2nd August, 2019, to Scrutinise the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019.

 

Sir, the Committee held a total number of twenty-six meetings and considered submissions from well over eighty stakeholders who included Government and quasi-Government institutions, civil society organisations, faith-based organisations, professional organisations or associations, academia, political parties and members of the public.

 

Mr Speaker, before I begin to highlight some of the salient provisions of the Bill and the Committee’s recommendations thereon, I would first like to give a brief background to the process and events that took place prior to the presentation of this Bill to Parliament.

 

Sir, the House may recall that in 2015/2016, the nation underwent the Constitution amendment process which culminated into the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016. The 2016 amendments brought about a lot of good provisions, but were not void of contradictions, which have hitherto raised a lot of controversy to our legal and political discourse. Arising from these contradictions and the controversy thereof, in November 2016, the National Assembly approved a Private Member’s Motion urging the Government to amend the Constitution in order to reinstate hon. Members of Parliament on councils and address the lacunae that had arisen following the 2016 amendment of the Constitution.

 

Mr Speaker, this was followed by public calls from the Ministry of Justice requesting citizens to render submissions and proposals on amendments through provincial meetings which were conducted in all ten provinces. The Ministry of Justice turned the submissions into a draft which was subjected to further scrutiny by stakeholders and subsequently approved by Cabinet for introduction in the National Assembly.

 

Sir, before the Bill could be introduced in the National Assembly, the Government received a request from the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue (ZCID) for the Bill to be deferred to allow political parties and the church mother bodies to conclude an on-going dialogue process. The request was duly granted and the Government, therefore, postponed the introduction of the Bill in the National Assembly. What followed was the National Democratic Stakeholder Summit(NDSS), whose resolutions where discussed and validated by the secretaries general of all political parties under ZCID.

 

Mr Speaker, this validation meeting was held in Siavonga and as a result, the resolutions of the meeting were termed the Siavonga Resolutions. The Government then developed a roadmap, which included the Bill being considered at a national validation meeting of all stakeholders. Thus, in April 2019, Parliament passed the National Dialogue (Constitution, Electoral Process, Public Order and Political Parties) Act No. 1 of 2019, which established the National Dialogue Forum (NDF), a body constituted to validate the draft Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, among other things.

 

Sir, Section 4 of the Act provided for the NDF to, in amending the Constitution, implement and enhance the Siavonga Resolutions which were adopted by all political parties. Consequentially, upon the conclusion of its deliberation, the forum submitted a draft Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill to the hon. Minister of Justice pursuant to section 14 (6) of the Act which obliged the NDF to do so.

 

Mr Speaker, further, Section 14 (7) of the Act obliged the hon. Minister of Justice to publish the Bill in the Government Gazette within thirty days of receiving it from the forum in compliance with Article 79 of the Constitution which requires a Bill that amends the Constitution to be published in the gazette for thirty days before it can be introduced in the National Assembly for First Reading. In his regard, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill was published in the gazette on Friday, 21st June, 2019, and was ready for presentation in the National Assembly on 23rd July, 2019.

 

Sir, having given this brief background, allow me to state that most of the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee where in support of the Bill although, in some instances, proposed several amendments. The stakeholders noted that the Bill was meant to cure and address the various lacunas created by the 2016 amendment to the Constitution.

 

However, let me also state that there were very few stakeholders who did not support the Bill and called for its withdrawal. These stakeholders cited a lack of broad consultation in the current Constitution making process, which they said was cardinal if the Constitution was to stand the test of time. They, further, contended that the current process had departed from the initial objective of attending to lacunae created by the 2016 amendment to the Constitution to proposing major changes and, therefore, required further consultations.

 

Mr Speaker, having received the submissions and analysed them, the Committee is convinced that the Bill has attended to the various lacunae that arose from the amendment of the Constitution and, therefore, supports it and urges the House to do so.

 

Sir, allow me to delve into some provisions of the Bill on the firm belief that hon. Members of this House have read the Committee’s report and acquainted themselves with the submissions and recommendations thereof.

 

Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to refer the House to Clause 2 of the Bill, which amends the preamble of the Constitution by deleting the word ‘multi-religious’ and replacing it with the word ‘Christian’. This should be read in conjunction with Clause 4, which removes the same words in the substantive parts of the Constitution, particularly Article 4 (3) as well as Clause 5 of the Bill which seeks to amend Article 8 of the Constitution by adding Christian morality and ethics as parts of the national values and principles.

 

Sir, I wish to report to the House that the majority of stakeholders supported these amendments in recognisance of the fact that over 90 per cent of Zambians belong to the Christian faith and would like the country to be identified as such. It was also submitted that the proposed amendments were not a violation of religious freedoms as the rights were protected under the Bill of Rights in Article 19 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia.

 

Mr Speaker, on the contrary, some stakeholders contended that the introduction of the word ‘Christian’ in the substantive part of the Constitution would potentially lead to discrimination of other religious groups on the basis of deference in beliefs, especially that international human rights instrument to which Zambia is a State party proscribes discrimination of religious minorities. It was also submitted that the term ‘Christian morality’ would pose great challenges in terms of its interpretation by courts of law because there were many Christian groupings with varied value systems in Zambia. They further argued that it would be better to maintain the status quo of the declaration being in the preamble of the Constitution since this part of the Constitution was not justiciable.

 

Sir, in view of these submissions, the Committee agreed with stakeholders that the term ‘multi-religious’ be deleted as it would remove the ambiguity in the current Constitution which gives the Republic two contradictory religious identities. The Committee is of the view that replacing the word ‘multi-religious’ with the word ‘Christian’ will create a much-needed identity which will form the basis for formulating the values and principles upon which the Constitution will be anchored.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Sir, the Committee, however, does not agree with the concern by stakeholders that the amendment discriminates against non-Christians. This is because the Constitution provides enough safeguards in Article 19 under the Bill of Rights which guarantees every person’s freedom of conscience.

 

Mr Speaker, the Committee also supports stakeholders’ submissions to amend Article 4 of the Constitution to replace the word ‘multi-religious’ with the word ‘Christian’. The Committee agrees that this gives the nation its identity and reaffirms its declaration as a Christian nation.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: The Committee, however, observes that though the majority of stakeholders supported the amendment for Christian morality and ethics to be included as one of the national values and principles, Article 9 requires that the national values and principles be used in interpreting the Constitution, laws and Government policies. In this regard, the Committee agrees with the stakeholders as submitted that including Christian morality and ethics as a national value and principle would create difficulties in interpreting the law and Government policies.

 

Mr Speaker, the Bill in Clause 13 amends Article 63 (2), which provides for the functions of Parliament and the National Assembly by deleting the paragraphs that relate to the functions of the National Assembly to oversee the performance of the Executive in approving public debt before it is contracted and approving international agreements before they are ratified or acceded to. Further, Clause 51 repeals and replaces Article 149, which requires parliamentary oversight on Presidential powers to create, merge or divide provinces, districts and wards. The Committee is concerned about these amendments which water down the Parliamentary oversight function over Executive power.

 

Sir, your Committee is alive to fact that in a democratic society such as Zambia, separation of powers based on robust systems of checks and balances is critical in enhancing good governance and the rule of law. To this end, the Committee opposes these amendments and recommends that the status quo should be maintained.

 

Mr Speaker, with regard to the repeal and replacement of Article 81, which relates to the term and prorogation of Parliament, the Committee has observed that most stakeholders were not in support of the amendment. The Committee, however, notes that the amendment is intended to address the apparent conflict between Article 81 (1) which prescribes the term of office of an hon. Member of Parliament to five years and Article 81 (3) which provides for the dissolution of Parliament ninety days prior to a general election.

 

Sir, the Committee notes that the dissolution of Parliament before the expiry of the five years constitutes a breach of contract and, therefore, is of the view that hon. Members should be remunerated for the period from the dissolution of Parliament up to the holding of elections.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nakacinda: Mr Speaker, additionally, the Committee is concerned that ninety days is too long a period for the State to operate without hon. Members of Parliament. In view of this, the Committee is of the view that the National Assembly should be dissolved sixty days before elections. The Committee, therefore, recommends that Article 81 be amended to provide for the National Assembly to be dissolved at least sixty days before the next general election and for hon. Members of Parliament to be remunerated for the full five-year term.

 

Mr Speaker, the other amendment which raised a lot of debate during the Committee’s deliberations is Clause 50 which amends Article 100 to provide for the formation of a coalition government. In the event that there is no outright winner after a presidential election, the proposed amendment gives leeway to the presidential candidate with the highest number of votes to negotiate with any of the other losing candidates to form such a government.

 

Sir, most of the stakeholders rejected this amendment and highlighted that both the Mung’omba Constitution Review Commission and Silungwe National Technical Committee had reported that the majority of Zambian citizens preferred the majoritarian electoral system in which the winning candidate in a presidential election obtained more than 50 per cent of the votes.

 

Mr Speaker, your Committee agrees with the majority of the stakeholders and recommends that Article 100 should not be amended so that the election of the President should be through direct elections where the winning candidate obtains more than 50 per cent of the valid votes cast.

 

Sir, allow me to turn to Clauses 37 and 38, which also raised some controversy. Clause 37 on one hand amends Article 116, so that hon. Cabinet Ministers can remain in office from the time Parliament is dissolved until the next general election. Most stakeholders rejected this proposal on the basis that it would make the electoral playing field uneven in that hon. Ministers would have access to facilities and State resources which they would use to campaign and, thereby, disadvantage their political opponents. The Committee agrees with the stakeholders and recommends that hon. Ministers should vacate office upon the dissolution of Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker, on the other hand, Clause 38 introduces a new article, Article 117 (a), so as to reintroduce the position of Deputy Minister in our governance system. The House will recall that this position was removed from the Constitution due to the proposal in the previous constitution review process that parliamentary secretaries would be appointed in the National Assembly since hon. Ministers would be appointed from outside Parliament. This proposal did not see the light of day and the position of Deputy Minister was not reinstated.

 

Sir, notwithstanding the foregoing, the Committee observed that almost all stakeholders who appeared before it were not in support of the amendment to reintroduce the position of Deputy Minister. The Committee agrees with the stakeholders that the reintroduction of the position of Deputy Minister does not reflect the will of the people of Zambia at the moment.

 

Mr Speaker, as a way of finalising, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the Committee’s general observations and recommendations. It emerged during your Committee’s deliberations that Zambia does not have an entrenched legal framework for the constitutional making or amendment process, apart from constitutional amendments relating to the Bill of Rights.

 

Stakeholders who appeared before the Committee expressed concern that over the years, different methods have been used to amend the Constitution, which include commissions of inquiry, the National Constitution Conference (NCC), technical committee and, more recently, the NDF.

 

Mr Speaker, the Committee agrees with stakeholders that the lack of a legal framework prescribing the form of constitution making has usually posed challenges resulting in the shunning of the process by some stakeholders. The House may recall that both the NCC and the NDF were shunned by some key stakeholders. In view of this, the Committee recommends that Parliament should, of necessity, enact legislation that is all inclusive and prescribe the manner in which the Constitution will be amended. This will avert mistrust and controversy in the constitution making process and legitimacy of the final constitution document.

 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the Committee would like to express its gratitude to you for the great honour and opportunity to scrutinise the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019. The Committee also wishes to thank all stakeholders for their oral and written submissions on the Bill. The Committee further thanks the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the services rendered to it during the consideration of the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, with these words, allow me to thank you for the honour and opportunity.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

The Minister for Northern Province (Mr Bwalya): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019. I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Justice for ably talking to various issues that have been raised not only in Parliament, but in the public arena.

 

Mr Speaker, I also want to thank the Chairperson of the Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019 for the manner he has delivered the report.

 

Mr Speaker, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 contains quite a lot of progressive suggestions that do not only need to be listened to, but also supported by the people of Zambia. I have followed constitutional reforms in this country. We, as a country, have spent quite a lot of money in trying to come up with the Constitution that should stand the test of time. We have a history in constitution making as a country and, it has been very expensive over time. I think the people of Zambia are aware of this fact and, because of that, are looking forward to seeing this Bill supported so that the country can, for once, have a Constitution that will be able to deliver and talk to their aspirations.

 

Mr Speaker, there has been a lot of talk about the Constitution of Zambia as compared to those in other jurisdictions such as the United States of America (USA). People have said that the Constitution of the USA has stood the test of time. What they do not know is that the Constitution of the USA, which I have read, contains only principles that talk to various issues. However, the subsidiary laws of the USA are the ones that go into details.

 

Mr Speaker, on the other hand, the Constitution of Zambia talks too much because it prescribes processes.This should not be the case. The reason we, as a country, keep changing the Constitution is because we have gone into the prescription of processes and procedures. Such processes and procedures should be enshrined in subsidiary laws because it is less costly to amend subsidiary law. We should move in that direction as a country. For example, if you say that Zambia shall have a President who shall be elected by the majority of the people of Zambia, such a principle should be enshrined in the Constitution. However, the election and qualification of a President should, in my view, be in subsidiary law because qualifications and society change over time.Therefore, we should be able to change the law according to the prevailing conditions and circumstances as country. However, when you cast particular qualifications into the Constitution, you pose challenges,such as we have as a country.

 

Mr Speaker, by the same token, our Constitution provides for 156 Constituencies in the Republic of Zambia. If we do not support the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 and change the current 2016 Constitution, the country will remain with 156 constituencies even if the population of the Republic of Zambia increases. Surely, that will not be fair to the people of Zambia. The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019 needs support in order for it to see the light of day and transform into an Act of Parliament. There is quite a lot that the people of Zambia stand to benefit once the number of constituencies, which is enshrined in the current Constitution, is changed.

Mr Speaker, remember that we, as a country, have already spent money on the delimitation exercise. The Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has gone around this country spending colossal sums of money at the expense of taxpayers. Surely, that exercise should not be in futility.It must bear fruits, and it will only do so if the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 is given an opportunity to transform into an Act of Parliament. The monies that have been spent on the reforms of the Constitution of Zambia are enormous.

 

Mr Speaker, in 1973, there was a constitution reform process. Basically, from the time of independence, the country has had a number of constitution reviews such as the Chona Constitution Review Commission, the Mvunga Constitution Review Commission, the Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission and the Mung’omba Constitution Review. All of these gobbled colossal sums of money that should have been used on the development of something else, such as roads. Surely, responsible and patriotic Zambians should support this process today and going forward. 

 

Mr Speaker, there was also the Technical Committee that was appointed by then President of the Republic of Zambia, His Excellency, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, may his soul rest in peace. That Technical Committee also went round the country and spent colossal sums of money. Surely, we need to put a stop to this by ensuring that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 that is before us, the lawmakers, is supported. I also make the same appeal to those who seem not to support the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, this morning, I was taken aback as I watched a live programme on Prime Television which featured the leader of the United Party for National Development (UPND).He stated in no uncertain terms that the Government has included in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 the issue of Cabinetprinting of money. I looked at the person who was talking and I wondered.There is too much propensity in us politicians to mislead the people of Zambia. This has to stop. Let us learn to read things that are presented to us and speak factually. To portray on Prime Television that Cabinet wants to be printing money and wants to take that responsibility from the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) is the highest level of irresponsible talk, especially from someone vying for the highest office in the land. One must be responsible and speak the truth.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Bwalya: In fact, BoZ has pronounced itself on this allegation and misinformation.It is on record that there is nowhere in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 where it is said that the Government should be printing money. We know that it is the preserve of BoZ. This person went further to say that Cabinet wants to be supervising banks. How can that be when there is the Office of theGovernor which is charged with that responsibility? I think that as politicians, once in a while, we need to stand upright and protect the norms, values and principles that we ourselves have enshrined in the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.

 

Mr Speaker, I want to apply myself to the amendment to Article 60 in Clause 12 which says:

 

“The Constitution is amended by the repeal of Article 60 and the substitution therefor, of the following:

 

60. (3) A political party shall not be founded on a religious, linguistic, racial, ethnic, tribal, gender, sectoral, provincial basis, or engage in propaganda based on any of the these factors.”

 

Mr Speaker, again, this is a very progressive provision in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 because there is a propensity in this country to put propaganda first in order to gain political mileage and get into a political office. This Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 proposes the need to protect the people of Zambia from propaganda and all of us must support this. There have been many issues to do with propaganda around the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019. There havealso been a lot of propaganda to do with corruption. Certain individuals have not been able to substantiate the issues that they have raised to help institutions of governance such as the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and the Zambia Police (ZP).

 

Mr Speaker, let me also talk about what I may term as a very minor proposal in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 which some people have not read and applied themselves to. Article 73 of the current Constitution of Zambia is amended in Clause 2 by the insertion of the words, “and determined.” The Minister of Justice mentioned that lawyers, including the men and women on the bench, have had difficulties to interpret the current Constitution of Zambia when it comes to the presidential petition. The current Constitution of Zambia merely says that the Constitutional Court shall hear the presidential petition within fourteen days.

 

Sir, the question is: What happens after the presidential petition has been heard? Have we decided on what the course of action is? The current Constitution of Zambia does not give the Constitutional Court the powers to determine, or better still, pass judgment in lay man’s language. This Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 is seeking to clarify that inconsistency or technical lacuna, if you like. It says that once the Constitutional Court hears the case, it must pass judgment. This is what other people are saying no to. It is a shame. This is not supposed to be allowed in this country. People must learn to read so that they can support progressive ideas like this one.

 

Mr Speaker, the institution of chieftaincy is on the verge of collapse because of the provisions of the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016. This Constitution clearly states that no Parliament shall enact a law that will recognise or derecognise anybody as a chief. What that means is that anybody can wake up and pronounce himself as a chief and no one will stop him. That has caused many problems in various traditional leaderships or chiefdoms. That is why we have now seen many wrangles as so many people want to become chiefs. These wrangles have been going on and on. It has also become costly on the part of the Judiciary to handle all these wrangles.

 

Sir, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 suggests the restoration of the sanity that existed within chiefdoms so that once somebody is pronounced as a chief, there is a way of recognising his/her ascendance to the throne so that he/she can be known as the sitting chief.  More so, when it comes to allocation of resources or subsidies to a particular chief, the only document that introducesa particular person to the Ministry of Finance as having ascended to the throne is the recognition order signed by the Republican President. Without that, we see a situation where those who succeed to the throne, after one chief has been called by the Almighty God, may not qualify to get the subsidy. This is because there will be no legal document that will entitle the Ministry of Finance to introduce that particular individual to the payroll. We must deal with this using the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 because it has an answer to that particular lacuna.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I can assure this House that paramount chiefs, senior chiefs and all other chiefs have said that the provision that is in the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016 is very difficult to go with. If we continue on that trajectory, we will have a situation which will not be very good in our chiefdoms. Therefore, as law makers, we need to apply ourselves so that we can give the people of Zambia the correct kind of laws.

 

Mr Speaker, the Opposition cried over and over on the issue of the fourteen days period for the hearing of the presidential petition. In fact, they even missed a step because they went to the Constitutional Court. When the fourteen days had elapsed and there was no determination, they ran back to the High Court. That completely confused the hierarchy of the court andthey failed to present the matters to the correct court. We want to clean that up so that we do not find ourselves in a similar scenario going forward. That must be dealt with together with the issue of the thirty days that have been proposed in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019. 

 

Mr Speaker, putting evidence together and bringing witnesses to court requires ample time. Therefore, the thirty days period that have been proposed in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 is quite a good number of days that should be supported so that when there is such a thing in future, people can have ample time to present their evidence, be heard and their case determined.

 

Mr Speaker, finally, let me talk about the proposal for multi-member representation. This is the best thing that can ever happen in this country because it will definitely give an opportunity to the women, the youths, the disabled, the Church, and faith-based organisations to sit in this Parliament and contribute to the legislative process. If we deny this clause to be introduced in the Constitution, we will be denying an opportunity to the very people who we are representing.

 

Sir, the beauty is that the people of Zambia have been listening very carefully to the voice of wisdom. They have been listening very carefully to what Dr Edgar Chagwa Lungu has been emphasising, which is that, he does not want to leave anyone behind. This way, we will be able to include even many more other voices that may not have been part and parcel of the legislative process in this country. This will only come after supporting the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 as it will deal with a number of lacunae. It may not be the best, but ultimately, we will get a document that we will be able to live with. We will help those who are charged with the responsibility of interpreting the law to interpret it properly and give measured judgments or interpretations. Most importantly, it will help with the speedy delivery of justice.

 

Mr Speaker, with those few contributions and remarks, I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: In order to balance the debate, I have also decided at this juncture to allow the hon. Member for Nalikwanda to contribute.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: We have dedicated sufficient time for this debate.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I am very thankful for appointing me to the Select Committee.Having been an hon. Member of the Select Committee, I would like to first of all express my profound appreciation to the Chairperson of the Committee for the excellent manner in which he chaired that Committee.

 

 Sir, because of his leadership, the Committee was able to come up with very profound insights on the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 and build consensus on the various articles as it saw fit.  He did an excellent job in that regard.

 

Mr Speaker, our Chairperson has gone into details in terms of highlighting the various recommendations of the Select Committee. I will not take time to repeat what has already been said. However, I would like to underline what the Committee considered to be very important principles guiding our deliberations on the various articles in the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019.

 

Sir, we are building a constitutional democracy and this is a young constitutional democracy that we are building. In our analysis of the Bill, we did pay attention to the need to understand the basic tenetsof a constitutional democracy.

 

Mr Speaker, world over, there are certain basic tenets of a constitutional democracy and one of them is the need to develop strong institutions. This is how democracy is developed. In our analysis of the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019, we paid very serious attention to that basic tenet. That is why, as the report of the Select Committee has highlighted, we recommendedthe need for a strong Presidency. A President should be able to marshal 50 per cent plus one of votes in an election so that he/she can go anywhere in the corners of this country and be accepted as the Republican President.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: This is how democracy is developed.

 

Sir, we also looked at the whole challenge of institutions like our Bank of Zambia (BoZ). Of course, BoZ came and made recommendations of stripping its functions in line with what is happening in theSouthern African Development Community (SADC) region. As a Select Committee and in line with the basic principle of a strong institution based democracy, we said BoZ has to retain its functions in totality in order for it to be a strong institution in our republic.

 

Mr Speaker, we also looked at other institutions like public commissions and said that they must be retained. The Office of the President must consult the Public Service Commission (PSC) when making appointments at the level of Permanent Secretary (PS) so that it can have a say in such high level appointments. This is how democracy is strengthened, by strengthening institutions. Your Committee also looked at the position of PS and said that it must retain its functions of being controller of finances that it is responsible for. These are just examples of adhering to the basic tenetsof constitutional democracy rooted in strengthening the institutions of governance.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, we also looked at another very fundamental tenetof constitutional democracy, namely, broad-based participation in the governance of the country, especially of the marginalised, and in our case here, the youths, the women and the disabled people. Furthermore, in a strong democratic environment, we expect the voices of the youths, the women and the disabled people to reverberate in the House of the peopleto articulate the problems or the unique circumstances that affect them. You develop a constitutional democracy through bringing into the House of the people more youths, women and disabled people.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: This is important and this is what the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 is saying. We hope the youths, the women and the disabled people out there will be able to say that the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 is actually in accordance with the development of a democratic society and meant to make Zambia a strong constitutional democracy by bringing into Parliament more youths, women and disabled people.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we further went on to look at examining the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 in the contents of the basic tenets of constitutional democracy, namely, the separation of powers, the oversight responsibilities of Parliament and the checks and balances. These are very important principles in the development of a constitutional democracy.

 

Mr Speaker, clearly, in our report, as highlighted by the Chairperson, we said that let there be separation of powers. Let Parliament oversee the responsibilities and work of the Executive and let there be the independence of the Judiciary.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: This is important as we develop our constitutional democracy. The Chairperson of the Committee has highlighted, for example, the attention we gave to the fact that Parliament must be responsible for ensuring that it looks into the issues of contracting of debt and also into issues of engaging or entering into international treaties so that there is effective –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Lungwangwa, I was carried away. You will continue after the break. 

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, before business was suspened, I was about to say that another basic tenet of constitutional democracy is the will of the people. In our analysis of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 and interaction with various stakeholders, we came to realise that there is a will of the majority of our people. One of them, which has been highlighted, is, of course, that Zambia being a Christian nation ought to be enshrined in the Constitution. Our Chairperson has already highlighted what came out very strongly.

 

Sir, another example of the will of the people is, of course, the retention of retirees on the payroll. This is what the people want. There is no way we can pay a blind eye or ear to the will of the people. There is also the issue of deputy ministers not being brought back. This is also the will of the people.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, these are the guiding principles which we paid attention to when we were analysing the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019. Another very important guiding principle in our analysis of this Bill is what the hon. Minister of Justice referred to as the need to retain the sanctity of our chieftaincy. This is absolutely important because we must find a way of Africanising, indigenising and Zambianising our constitutional democratic development process.

 

Mr Speaker, there is no way we can develop a constitutional democracy which does not have a traditional face. Our constitutional democracy must have a traditional face. It can only have that traditional face if it is rooted in our traditions, culture, traditional institutions, norms and values.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We consider it extremely important as a progressive development that the institution of chieftaincy be given its rightful place in our Constitution.

 

Ms Katuta: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: The Office of Chieftaincy in our country must be clearly identified through areas like the recognition of chiefs, appointment of chiefs, disciplining of erring chiefs and withdrawal of status of chieftaincy. The Constitution must be very clear on that and the proposed amendment which the hon. Minister of Justice has highlighted in that direction will give a lot of sanctity to this very important institution in our land. That is why it is important for all of us in this House to pay attention to the amendments and ensure that we support them so that we are able to have a Constitution that is deeply rooted in our traditions and culture.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, this is the foundation of development and it is important for all of us to give the dignity and respect that the Office of Chieftaincy and traditional institutions require of us.

 

Sir, as a nation, it is time we begin to focus on the development of our country. It is time we begin to see that which is good for our country so that we focus on that and develop a Zambia that we all want.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We may not agree on a number of issues, but we develop nations through a process of consensus or compromise through consensus. This is how other countries develop, compromise through consensus or consensus through compromise. There are many examples of that. Even developed countries like the United States of America (USA) have developed through a process of consensus by compromise. Now, what is happening in our country is unacceptable.We take a strong stance and dig in our heels at the expense of our country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, a Constitution is a document for all of us. That is why all of us swear or take oath before we take our seats in Parliament that we shall defend and protect the Constitution.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We take that oath because the Constitution is a sacred document which rises above partisan politics …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and looks at the interest of the country for the good of all of us. This process of coming up with something of public good like the Constitution must be one of consensus of all of us.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister for Eastern Province (Mr M. Zulu): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me, once again to thank the people of Malambo Constituency for electing me to this House of honour. I say it is a House of honour because things we say in this House must be true and not based on propaganda. I am glad that they did not ask me to represent them on radio. They never voted for me to represent them on television. They asked me to represent them in the National Assembly ...

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. Zulu: ... so that the same things I say on radio or television, I should be able to say in the National Assembly. Mr Speaker, this is not a House of propaganda. It takes courage to be able to tell the truth and those who are not courageous enough will choose to walk away. They will go and speak on radio and television things they cannot in this House. Examples abound of what has been said of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019. I would like to say what the Bill is not.

 

Mr Speaker, they have gone on television and radio stations and said that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019 is intended to make the President more powerful. However, they cannot repeat that in this House because the rules of the House encourage us to tell the truth on the Floor.

 

Mr Speaker, they have also gone out there and said that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 intends to bar a certain person from standing for Presidency by usproposing thata person cannot stand if he/she has not been a councillor or ward chairperson. That is not the truth.

 

Mr Speaker, out there, they have stated on television and radio that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 is intended to extend the rule ofthe Patriotic Front (PF), which is not true.

 

Mr Speaker, we have the courage to say so both in here and out there. Out there, they have said that the intention of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 is to get rid of the Financial Intelligence Commission (FIC). That is not true.

 

They have also said out there that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019 intends to take away the power of Bank of Zambia to print money and that money will be printed by Cabinet or, indeed, officers in Cabinet. That is not true.

 

They have stated out there that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 is intended to make Zambia a one party State.They have no courage to say that on the Floor of the House because it is just not true.

 

They have also said that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 intends to take away power from the Judiciary and repose it in the Executive.We have the courage to tell the truth, and that is not true.

 

 The idea of flip-flopping in our politics and only endearingto our political ambitions is what is destroying our politics in this country. A lot of propaganda has been stated out therewith so much zeal and strength. They have debated on radio, television and in different forums as to what they think the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 is, all in the quest to mislead the public.

 

Mr Speaker, what then is the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019? This Bill intends to increase representation of women in this House. Mr Speaker, out there, women are in themajority and yet, in this House, they are in the minority.

 

Hon. K. Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Zulu: Why should that be when they are in the majority out there? Are we saying that the role of women is simply to vote and not take part in the affairs of the nation? Those that have refused to give this right to women to represent themselves in this House should be seen for what they are, anti-women representatives. They do not want women to be properly represented. Women of Malambo, it is very clear that in this House, there is a certain party that does not want you to be properly represented. Therefore, I urge you to speak loudly what you have always told me that you want equal or better representation of women in this House that makes laws.

 

Mr Speaker, there are about 1.7 million people in this country who are differently abled. That is 10 per cent of our population who are differently abled. The message has been sent to them today by the United Party for National Development (UPND) that they are not its concern. Its concern is to form Government in 2021.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M Zulu:Thus, its hon. Members have walked out on this very important debate. I would like to assure all the differently abled people out there that President Edgar Chagwa Lungu and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government are with you and will carry you through this process and ensure that through a mixed member representation system, you will be properly represented.

 

Mr Speaker, there are talented youths out there who are able to speak and have ideas.They are able to make us work in this House by putting forward issues that pertain to theirkind. Today, a message has been delivered to them very clearly that the UPND does not care about them and is not willing to give them a fair representation in this House.My message to the youths is that President Edgar Chagwa Lungu and all these noble men and women who are in this House care about you and are going to put your interests first.

 

Mr Speaker, there are six chiefs in my constituency.Two recently became chiefs.However, the law says we cannot in any way recognise or not recognise them. This threatens our chieftaincy because if they are not recognised even the means of sustaining themselves as they take care of our people cannot be afforded to them. In my province particularly, at least a good number of chieftaincy are in court because of that particular provision which does not allow any person or any authority to be able to recognise or not recognise them at all. That has brought problems.

 

Sir, I am saying to the chiefs in my province and throughout Zambia that President Edgar Chagwa Lungu has their best interests at heart. Very soon, even those that do not have their best interests at heart will come and kneel before them and say they would like to campaign in their chiefdom when they have clearly shown that they do not have the best interest of the chiefs out there. As the people they have entrusted with the responsibility to be in this House, we will take care of that interest.

 

 I would like to speak to the Christians of this country. We have their best interests at heart. We cannot in one breath say Zambia is a Christian nation and in another say that we are multi-religious. Whereas we respect other traditions and co-exist with other religions, I would like to say that our character is Christian. Today, the highest sort of cowardice has been shown by taking away that responsibility that you gave upon them to represent you fairly in this House to speak on your behalf and affirm that, indeed, Zambia is a Christian nation by character.

 

Sir, my assurance to Christians out there is that President Edgar Chagwa Lungu acknowledges the fact that Zambia is a Christian nation.We want to put this in the operative clauses of our Constitution to enshrine our Christianity were we continue acknowledging that we can co-exist with other religions. Otherwise, if they do not exist, whom are we going to evangelise to? We need them.

 

Mr Speaker, it is very clear that the issue of representation is important. A typical example is Malambo Constituency which is so vast a constituency that now, there is a proposal for delimitation in which case the constituency will be divided into two. If the constituency is divided into two, it means that the K1.6 million that we receive as Constituency Development Fund (CDF) will be doubled. If it is doubled, it will satisfy the need of our people. It will, at least, contribute to the development of Malambo Constituency at a better rate because more money will be taken into the constituency. That is what the people are not being told. This is one of the truths that the people out there are not being told.

 

Sir, as we stated, this is not a House of propaganda and as such, very few would have the courage to come and tell the truth. We do not even need courage to tell the truth because with us,truth comes naturally.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. Zulu: Mr Speaker, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 was and is a proposal.This means that what goes into the Bill is not necessarily what comes out of it. I have given an example in my interactions that if the bus is moving from Chelstone to town, there is no guarantee that the same people who got on the bus in Chelstone will be the same people who will get into town. Some will get off the bus at Chainama while others will get on until the bus arrives.

 

Sir, at first, it was an issue of process and we agreed that indeed, process protects content. What did we do? We came up with the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) Act. We did not go by way of the Inquiries Act like it was done in the past, but came up with a framework in which we were going to enact the law, the NDF. What did they do? They walked away. Thereafter, the debate was over the content. When everyone was satisfied that the process was inclusive, it became about the content. We said the content was coming from the NDF and not the way of a White Paper because the position of the Government had not been set yet. When the position of the Government has been set, it has been an issue of trust.

 

Mr Speaker, we have agreed with the report of the Committee and said that we are going to enact what is in the best interest of the people. Over 450 people submitted at the NDF. Over 102 institutions and individuals submitted for the purpose of scrutinising the very submissions at NDF. Eighty-six witnesses appeared before your Committee which sat over a period of twenty-six days scrutinising the interests of the Zambian people and making sure that the document we were going to come up with was going to reflect the will of the people.

 

Sir, after the document has come into this House today and the hon. Minister has announced that amendments will be effected that will reflect the will of the people, they have said they do not trust the Government. It is not a question of trust, but a question of political expedience.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. Zulu: It is political expedience because they would not want what they did not participate in to succeed, but it will certainly succeed …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. Zulu: …because it is the interest of the people that we choose to serve in this House.

 

Mr Speaker, they went out there crying that the legislative authority of Parliament should be moved so that we have a Constituent Assembly.That can only happen if we amend the Constitution, the very Constitution they have turned away from and do not want to amend.

 

Sir, this is not the first time this is happening. In 2016, the PF Government wanted to give the people of Zambia the right to development. We said let us have a referendum so that we may have a right to education, health, clean and safe drinking water.It was about all the rights and those for people who are differently abled. That was supposed to be the case. What did the UPND do? It went out there and campaigned against the referendum.

 

Mr Speaker, we believe that development should not be a favour to the people of Zambia, but a matter of right. Providing clean and safe drinking water should not be a favour to the people of Zambia, but a matter of right. Providing good health to our people out there should not be a favour, but a matter of right where,if successive Governments do not provide them, the people should be able to go to court and say, “we are entitled to this, give us what we are entitled to.” What did the UPND do?It said no, we should not give the people of Zambia that and campaigned against the referendum.

 

Sir, today, it is happening again. In our way, in order to mitigate what was lost in the referendum, we are saying let us have better representation of the differently abled, a right which we had enshrined in the proposed Bill of Rights. Let us have it better. What are they saying today, they are saying no, we do not deserve that.

 

Mr Speaker, if we had better representation of the differently abled people, as am speaking right now, there should have been a sign language interpreter interpreting to the deaf and dumb people what I am talking about.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. Zulu: However, that has been denied to them. In fact, we should have enacted a law where there should have been someone speaking for them and demanding that every facility which we were going to build in this country should ensures access for the differently abled people. We are in this situation because none of us in this House are thinking in that manner. Only until it happens to us and we become deaf, dumb or blind will we realise the importance of representation in this particular House. We will realise that it is important that there should be someone who will be able to speak for the marginalised group.

 

Mr Speaker, we had floods in Malambo Constituency and when this happened, the differently abled were affected the worst. There were those who could not swim, especially during the floods which occurred in the middle of the night and the blind ones who had no canes to be able to walk themselves to safety. There were also the deaf and dumb and could not cry for help as they were drowning somewhere. What are we saying about them? I will not sit back and neglect them.I will lobby all hon. Members of Parliament to ensure that that there is representation of the differently abled.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. Zulu: We will continue to lobby everyone because we feel that this is an issue of conscience. We have not struck the three line whip in this section of the House because we believe that the Constitution is a document of conscience where each and every hon. Member of Parliament should be able to express how he/she feels. They should express the will of the Zambian people and what exactly they desire to see Zambia to be. In addition, posterity will judge us correctly that we took the very interest of the Zambian people at heart. We said we were going to afford them better representation and were going to increase representation even in this particular House so that many voices could be added to the democratic dispensation of this House and, indeed, of this country.

 

Mr Speaker, I know that the people out there have seen for themselves that the mistruth and the falsehoods that were peddled out there are not capable of being repeated in this House. They have no courage to come and repeat the falsehoods in this House because it is not allowed to repeat or, indeed,state falsehoods in this House.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. Zulu: We will hold them accountable.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. Zulu: In holding them accountable, let the people of Zambia see the type of people all those who have walked outare. Let them see them for who they are. If it was permissible, I would have said, they were liars. However, I will not say they are liars, but perpetrators of misinformation.

 

Mr Speaker, with those very few words, I will take my seat.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker:  Hon. Member, just withdraw that for the record so that I do not go through the trouble of expunging. 

 

Mr M. Zulu: Mr Speaker, for the record, I withdraw my statement that if it was not unacceptable to say they are liars, I would have called them liars. I withdraw the fact that they are liars.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Laughter

 

The Minister for Western Province (Mr Kapita): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for according me the opportunity to add my voice to this very important debate in the House. I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Minister of Justice for ably moving this Motion which has captivated the whole nation.

 

Sir, due to the nature of my responsibility, I travel quite a lot between Lusaka and the Western Province. Sometimes, when I get to the Western Province and watch different media, I get shocked to find out that some people go on private media and tell all sorts of untruths to the nation.

 

Mr Speaker, my colleague, the hon. Minister for the Eastern Province, has highlighted some of the lies that they have been telling –

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, please withdraw the word ‘lies’.

 

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the lies that they have been telling and replace it with untruth.

 

Mr Speaker: Not “the lies that they have been telling”, withdraw the word “lies”.

 

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word “lies.”

 

Mr Speaker: Proceed with your debate.

 

Mr Kapita:They have been giving thesefalsehoods to the nation.

 

Mr Speaker, recently, I got a call from one of my boys who is in university and he said to me: “Dad we do not want the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019.” Then I asked him why. His answer was that they had just been told that they do not want it.

 Then I furtherasked him who told them, but he just told me that they do not want the Bill. Therefore, it would appear that propaganda indeed, has been working on behalf of some of our colleagues who are not in the House today. It would be nice if they were here to actually put their side of the story.

 

Mr Speaker, a lot of good things have come through the Constitution (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019 despite the untruths that have been told by the United Party for National Development (UPND), the party I belonged to for many years, and I am, indeed, very sorry that I did belong to that party for so many years.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I am shocked today that they can say that the Government wants to amend this Constitution because President Lungu wants to rule for fourteen years. I have heard those lies. I have been told that if this Constitution is amended, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government willbe in power perpetually. If it is performing well, what is wrong with that? In fact, the untruths that they have been telling are coming round because people are now asking why they are not in Parliament to defend this Bill. A lot of people did not know.

 

Mr Speaker, I am glad the hon. Minister of Justice has actually told the truth today and itis no longer hearsay. What is in the Bill is exactly what the hon. Minister has said. He has gone further to say that, in fact, he is introducing amendments to the Bill in agreement with the Report of the Committee that deliberated, as we heard, for so many weeks.Some hon. Members from the UPND were in that Committee accessing taxpayers’ money.

 

Mr Speaker, the story of the constitution making process in this country goes way back to the sixties. We have heard for ourselves that there was the Chona Commission, the Mvunga Commission and the Mwanakatwe Commission.All these commissions gobbled a lot of taxpayer’s money.TheTechnical Committee also went round and equally gobbled taxpayers’ money even though I accept that democracy is expensive.

 

Mr Speaker, I did not forget about the Mung'omba Commission because I have something to say about it. During the Mung'omba Commission,which eventually culminated into the National Constitutional Conference (NCC), I happened to be the Vice-President of the UPND. I led a team to the NCC of the Mung'omba Commission. We were also paid a lot of money, I must confess.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, the Mung'omba Commission came up with the same recommendations that have been made in past commissions. We agreed that we were going to have a Constitution that would last for some time, at least,to ensure that Zambians would be happy with those recommendations which were made in the commission. I am surprised that, today, my colleagues on your left have shifted and decided not to support the amendment of the same Constitution that we started and attended to in the NCC of the Mung'omba Commission.

 

Mr Speaker, I do not know whether there is a sense of shame in being on one side today and on the other side the next. These matters require integrity. You cannot be saying things just for expedience and because you must go to State House. I have now come to learn that to be in State House, you require a lot of integrity.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kapita:His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has shown integrity which is why the whole nation is willing to back him, even in 2021.

 

Dr Malama: Correct!

 

Mr Kapita:Mr Speaker, when I was privileged to be the hon. Minister for the North-Western Province, I dealt with so many cases of people murdering each other because they wanted to ascend to chieftaincy. The article in the Constitution which says the Government will not be involved with the recognition of Chiefs has brought chaosin this country. Therefore, chiefs started lobbing for the article to be amended, going forward.

 

Sir, I have also been privileged to move to the Western Province and I have found a similar situation. A lot of chiefs have been lobbying for this change. Therefore, what moral authority do my colleagues on your left have to ignore the chiefs that are in their constituencies who lead theirpeople? I think this is to expose them.We are talking to the chiefs saying thatyour representatives do not want to resolve the issues that are in your chiefdoms.

 

Mr Speaker, as regards the delimitation of constituencies,a lot of colleagues on your left complain about the vastness of their constituencies. I can attest to this. For example, there are constituencies like Mwinilunga and Kasempa where, if you move from one end to the other you are covering about 210 km. What service delivery can one individual foster?They complain every day. Some of them say to me that if we could only remove this clause we can all support the constitution amendments. However, the Constitution does not allow us to that.

 

Mr Speaker, I wanted to highlight a lot of things, but my colleagues who have already spoken.  However, the truth is that if the Constitution passes today or tomorrow, it will meanthat there will be proper representation. For those of you who have not been to Mufumbwe, you have to move from one end of the constituency through another district to get to the other end of the constituency almost in another province. What is wrong with us being normal with ourselves and correcting the situation that is making representation very difficult? Hence, a lot of them are said to be absentee hon. Members of Parliament because there is just no way would one cover some of those constituencies in a month, later on in three months’ time. Therefore, I do not see what they are against here. I was thinking they would come through and say let us debate so that we can deal with these matters.

 

Mr Speaker, the other issue is that of the mixed member representation. I have heard a number of people argue that you cannot bring people into Parliament through the back door. However, it has been said that women are actually in the majority in this country. Why can we not give them the opportunity to also come here and get their voices heard? They should also come and represent those members they represent. We are just selfish.       

 

Sir, I know a lot of quality women who could come to Parliament, but they do not have the resources. In any case, it is rough to go and compete with men on the political scene. I think female hon. Members of Parliament who are here can attest to that.

 

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kapita: They are subjected to all sorts of insults, cultural issues and are called names. I am sorry to say, but they are called all sorts of names for just trying to represent their people. I honour all the female hon. Members that are in this House because they have fought a fight that a few men can manage. I honour all the ladies in this House.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I wonder why people cannot stick to the truth. We have been debating the Constitution for years. This is an opportunity we have to ensure that today, or tomorrow, we come up with a Constitution that will resolve some of these lacunae that exist in our law.

 

Sir, I was one of those people that were very sceptical in 2016 when the new Constitution was being amended. In fact, I remember texting His Excellency the President asking him if it was right for him to amend the Constitution because it would mean that the PF could be out of power. His Excellency the President said that if it was the will of the people then he was going to amend it. That is the courage of a man that has integrity. I would like to appeal to other leaders to convince their hon. Members to come back to the House so that we can debate and pass this Constitution so that we give ourselves the best law in Zambia.

 

With those few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing the voice of the people of Chienge to debate on this issue which is very important to them. They have wanted me to explain what the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 is all about.

 

Sir, I also want to thank you for having appointed me to be part of the Select Committee which scrutinised the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 10 of 2019. It is quite painful that we sing the National Anthem with the phrase one Zambia one Nation …

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I want to sincerely apologise to the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge who was just beginning her discourse on this very important matter. However, I have a compelling point of order to raise. It relates to how this institution is managed and the superior officers who manage and superintend on it.

 

Sir, yesterday, 16th March, 2020, I, like many other citizens, watched a programme on Prime Television which had a panel of discussants which included the hon. Minister for the Eastern Province, the hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central, a Mr Lungu, Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, SC., and Mr Haimbe, another learned counsel.

 

Mr Speaker, I could not accept to see how an hon. Member of this august House could choose to mislead the nation by casting aspersions on the Office of the Hon. Mr Speaker and on how this House operates.

 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central alleged in his discussion that in constituting the Select Committee which scrutinised the Bill under discussion today, you, Mr Speaker, deliberately included two Members of this august Housewho you knew would not form part of the Committee because they would stay away. He cited these as the Leader of the Opposition and Dr Musokotwane, the hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa.

 

Mr Speaker, he further went on to say that as if that was not enough, Mr Speaker decided to choose a chairperson who was a new hon. Member of Parliament, in reference to Hon. Nakachinda, who did not know what to do as he chaired this Committee.

 

Sir, we know that when you appoint a select committee, it chooses its own chairperson. He portrayed this to the nation in a manner to cast aspersions on your office, Mr Speaker, to the effect that when you are discharging functions such as appointing a select committee, you do that with certain predetermined positions to manipulate the operations of such committees, which I have had a privilege to belong to as a new hon. Member of this august House together with the same hon. Member of Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker, was the hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central in order to cast aspersions on your honourable office and allege what he knew was not true? For the purpose of the integrity of this august House, I seek your serious ruling.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: The point of order you have raised alludes to a number of factual issues which require to be investigated. Therefore, for the time being, I will reserve my ruling in order to give appropriate direction. That is my ruling.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chienge may continue.

 

Ms Katuta: Mr Speaker, I was saying that it is quite disheartening thatdespite having a national anthem which encourages unity and states that we can rise above our problems and that Zambia is blessed us with peace, some of my colleagues in the Opposition have deliberately decided to mislead the nation by saying that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 is its enemy.

 

Sir, I have had challenges explaining this Bill to the people of Chienge. It is quite disappointing that a professor who is a former Vice-Chancellor of a certain university who has not read the Bill has the audacity to send me a message not to support this Bill. It is very unfortunate and unpatriotic.

 

Mr Speaker, we only have one Zambia. According to the prayer that is offered in this House, we as hon. Members have been given a mandate by the people and God has given us an opportunity to stand on their behalf. It is not that the people cannot choose others over us, but that God has seen that we can do the work. Unfortunately, we come to this House to lead the country up in flames and make people believe that there is no peace in our own country.

 

Mr Speaker, we want to compare our Constitution to that of the United States of America (USA). The USA has its own people and these people say it is America first. The USA is so patriotic about its own people and its governance. However, it is quite disappointing to hear people praise other countries over their own. I am yet to hear the Senate praise other countries. It is most unfortunate and disappointing to see that the House where laws are supposed to be made for our children and for the future is where we as hon. Members look down upon our own country and discredit it. Our own country is discredited all because someone thinks he/she will be in plot one next year. The truth of the matter is that leadership is given by God.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Hon. Members cannot come to this House, get paid then go out and not tell the truth about the whole process of the amendment of the Constitution. Last night, I watched a Prime Television programme and my heart sunk. There is no way somebody can say that Mr Speaker erred in coming up with the Select Committee to scrutinise the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019. When we are in this House as hon. Members, we are part and parcel of the decisions made in this House. When in this House, we represent the people of Zambia and not a political party or a political leader. It is most unfortunate that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 has been misconstrued outside this House that it is meant to render the current President a life time Presidency, that it will give power to Cabinet to be printing money.Where on earth? Why would people say such things honestly? This august House is anchored on integrity and we are called honourable because we are expected to be honourable in what we say out there in public.

 

Mr Speaker, it is most unfortunate and I am so disheartened by the women who belong to the United Party for National Development (UNPD). They are supposed to stand up for women. Women are getting fewer in Parliament and we, as women, would like the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 to go through so that next time, it will be 50 or 60 per cent women in Parliament.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Mr Speaker, the Bill also considers the differently abled. I have not seen any differently abled Cabinet Minister. If I remember very well, there was a blind man,for lack of a better term, who was in President Kaunda’s Cabinet. He was called Lazarus Tembo. The President then tried, but if you go out there to see, we as leaders have neglected the differently abled people. Even when it comes to jobs, it is only Pick‘n’Pay and Woolworths that are trying to make the differently abled feel counted. If a lot of differently abled people were to be in Parliament to represent their own interests, they would be able to even look into their education, because they are ones that feel what the feel. In my language we say, umuchele ukufina, umfwika kuusendele. This means that the one who carries a heavy load feels its weight.

 

Mr Speaker, in the Preamble of the Constitution of Zambia, we claim that our faith is in God as Zambians and that we are a Christian nation. Why can we not be identified as Christians? Qatar is an Islamic State, but it allows Christians to have their own Churches.This is what the proposal is also about in Zambia. The proposal is not that other religions will not be allowed, but that they should know that Zambia is a Christian nation and these are the values that the country believes in.

 

Mr Speaker, I cannot just believe that somebody in his/her dreams thinkshe/she is going to be the President. What will such a one use to be sworn in? How is the Bible going to be read if its content is not believed in?

 

Mr Mwale:Wadya one iwe.

 

Ms Katuta: Mr Speaker, what is happening is quite disheartening because the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 is a progressive document. I want to urge the House to print the Bill in all languages so that people can understand. Those opposing this have moved from talking about its content to the procedures claiming that they were not properly done. What other procedures were supposed to be followed? We are called hon. Members and I think it is about time the Standing Orders was amended to allow those who boycott the sittings to pay back the money they get paid.

 

Hon. Members Government: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: We are not here to get that money for free. We have to share in the pain of our people.

 

Mr Speaker, places like Chiengeneed to be delimitated into three or four parts, but that cannot be done if the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 does not go through. Chienge is a vast area.How are we going to provide for our people? The Constituency Development Fund (CDF) cannot be shared adequately in such a huge place. If the delimitation exercise is carried out, I will know that Kalungwishi, Tamba Mweru and Chienge will each haveits own CDF. It is wrong for me to come here and not support such ideas just because my political leader told me not to.

 

Mr Speaker, let me talk about the proposal for a Coalition Government.The Select Committee listened to what people said. Those opposed to this Bill are busy telling people that in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019, the Government wants to introduce a Coalition Government. People of this great nation, listen to me.There is nothing like that. Even in the recommendations of the Committee, it is clear that theproposal for a Coalition Government cannot be allowed because it did not work in the past during the Kaunda era. It has not worked in many other countries either.

 

Sir, what are we saying? We are saying that we want to see real winners, the champions who will go with their manifestos which people will buy into. People should be able to say that this is the person that we want.  We are talking about 50 +1 per cent.  If the people opposing the Bill and saying that the proposalis to get losers to form the Government decide to walk away, how can they then oppose that proposal? It is just not fair.People out there have been misled.They think the Government is going to be killing people and doing all sorts of things.

 

Mr Speaker, on the position of Deputy Minister, everyone is aware that the Government has no capacity at the moment to sustain this position. There is no money to pay hon. Deputy Ministers. Hon. Members were given copies of the recommendations in this House. If peopleread, they would indeed agree that these are the recommendations and then marry them with what the Executive adopted to be included in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No.10 of 2019 then someone can go out and tell people about the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, today, I want to urge this House to amend the Standing Orders.  Hon. Members talk about corruption and misappropriation of funds and yet they are getting people’s money without doing their work. It is just wrong.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: We as hon. Members are in this House to speak on behalf of the people who sent us here. The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 must go through. What those opposing the Bill are fighting are amendments to Article 4 and Article 8. Zambia shall remain a Christian Nation. I would like Zambians to know that this is what is being fought.There is nothing else. Those opposing the Bill have been asked about which articles they have a problem with, but they will not say. The truth of the matter is that Zambians have said no to gay practices.

 

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: The truth of the matter is that Zambians have said this is a Christian Nation and we shall not have fake prophets. We are going to stand firm as a people. I urge those listening to my debate to stand firm and pray. Today, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 must go through not because of the Patriotic Front (PF) or the person who is debating, but for our generation to be called a Christian Nation.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta:Mr Speaker, with those few words I would like to urge everyone in this House to please vote for the Bill. I, further, urge those who have stayed away to come inside. If they are true Christians they will come and vote to ensure that Article 4 and 8 are amended so that we should be proudly saying that Zambia is a Christian nation.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, thank you for according the people of Serenje an opportunity to debate this very important Bill. I am taken aback as to why our colleagues could not defend their position in this House. You can only defend your position if you stay on and highlight the areas which you are not comfortable with.

 

Mr Speaker, a lot has been said on the advantages and disadvantages of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill No. 10 of 2019. Our colleagues have been going out there telling people that the Bill is mischievous and that it contains certain clauses which are intended to extend the term of office of the President. They have gone further to say that it discriminates against other religions. When you look at the Constitution of Zambia, particularly, the Bill of Rights, it basically covers other religions. We do not want to see a Constitution which is very talkative. We want to see a Constitution which is very lean and rich in content.

 

Mr Speaker, as the previous speaker has outlined, we are here to serve the people of Zambia. We were elected on the basis that we were going to represent the people who are out there. There is no way a person can come to this House, log in and then decide to stay away then at the end of the day wants to get paid. If that is not corruption, what other definition can one attach to it?

 

Mr Ngulube: Theft!

 

Mr Kabanda: I think it is theft of public resources. This is plunder and it is referred to as theft of public resources. This is simply getting money which you have not worked for.

 

Mr Speaker, our colleagues have been going out to the public alleging a lot of things which they are supposed to justify in this House. They are supposed to come and say that, for example, in Clause (a), the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019has this particular provision which discriminates against this one.

 

Mr Speaker, what we want to see in the Bill is that there is proportional representation where women, who are the minority in this House, are actually covered so that we can draw certain skills from amongst them which we cannot get from other political players. That is the reason this proportional representation has been introduced in the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, we have disabled people in this country who also need to have representation. In Uganda, for instance, every group in society is represented, including the army. The army has got a Member of Parliament in the House to represent its interests.If they slotted an individual to compete on the political field, he may not get the seat. So, it is important that certain groups are given space in which they can find their way to Parliament.

Mr Speaker, let me also talk about the issue of debt contraction. Our colleagues have been going out there telling people that the Executive wants to sit in a corner to sign agreements. There is nowhere in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 where it says that the President or the Executive can contract debt without approval from this House. Various issues have been raised including the printing of money in dark corners. This is neither here nor there.

 

Sir, in 2019, there was the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) which we all attended,except our colleagues who decided to stay away saying that they want to have a process which is more embracing. How can they have an embracing process if they shun whatever body is called to look at the constitution amendment process? So, what sort of inclusiveness do they want?

 

Mr Speaker, they have been saying that the constitution making process leading to the enactment of the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016 was void and full of contradictions. Yes, it was full of contractions and we saw it in 2016. This country stayed for almost sixty days and the President could not function. The country was almost looking like it was at war because nothing was happening. There was no governance at all. All institutions of governance were at a standstill. We do not want to see that again. We want to see a situation where, after elections, things must return to normal as opposed to having a situation where an elected hon. Member of Parliament must continue staying in the village because his/her election is contested in the Constitutional Court whose decisions cannot even be respected by people. This is the only country where I have seen lawyers disagreeing with what the final courts say.

 

Ms Katuta: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabanda: Mr Speaker, you do not go to court expecting to win. You go to court with two things. It is either you lose or you win. So, if you do not win, that is the way the judges looked at the issue. If you win, then the court agreed with your argument. However, to say that because one’s arguments have not been accepted, then the judgment is flawed, is not right. I do not think it works like that.

 

Mr Speaker, let me also talk about the issue of hon. Members of Parliament being reinstatedin councils. I feel this is very progressive. You will note that currently, councils are not able to deliver. We do not know how much money goes to the local authorities and how much money is meant for development purposes. You will find that the hon. Member of Parliament and the council are pursuing different agendas. I think that hon. Members need to participate in decisions which the council is making because allare involved in the same development process. Therefore, we should actually be in councils and see that councils are appropriating money accordingly, including our own Constituency Development Fund (CDF). There is no way that hon. Members of Parliament should not be found in local authorities.

 

Mr Speaker, there is an issue of Mayors serving as Executive Mayors. There are no Executive Mayors in this country and the Constitution does not provide for that. So, why should we have a Mayor elected by the majority people in one or two constituencies when he is not going to serve as an Executive Mayor? It is important that we revert to the old system where Mayors will be elected from amongst the councillors so that he/she is first among equalsand serve for two terms. This will actually spur a lot of development as opposed to the present moment where we are pulling apart. This is actually affecting the development of our districts.

 

Sir, the Siavonga meeting, where the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 emanated from was a culmination of the contributions of all political players. Today, we wonder how our colleagues are negating on their own resolutions which they passed in Siavonga.

 

Sir, some stakeholders have been calling for the withdrawal of the Bill because it lacked broad consultations. I think that we have been all embracing. There is no stakeholder who has been left out. All the stakeholders have been asked to come on board in making this Constitution. I do not understand how some sections of this society can actually stay back and say that they do not want to be part of this process and then later on say that this process is not consultative. I think there is something wrong with our colleagues who are out there.

 

Mr Speaker, I think that for this country to deliver effectively, we need to reach out to our people by way of creating more constituencies because some of these constituencies are very wide and it becomes very difficult, particularly for us hon. Members of Parliament and councillors to service them. So, we need to see that these constituencies are demarcated and delimitated. In the absence of that, we do not see how even our colleagues from the Southern Province will have their constituencies served adequately.

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

 

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Kabanda: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was about to refer the House to the public outcry as regards the suspension of payment of salaries to pensioners. This was one of the issues that people went out to talk about. They told retirees that they would be removed from the payroll with immediate effect because that is what the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 intended to achieve.

 

Mr Speaker, after listening very attentively to people’s complaints,this Government decided to ignore what the  NDF recommended and reinstated the position that retirees must continue to remain on the Government payroll until they are paid their pension. However, since there is a provision in the law which entails that the basic salary shall include all allowances, the Government decided that it would pay the basic salary without allowances to every person who retires until the dues are paid to them.

 

Sir, on hon. Ministers vacating offices after the dissolution of Parliament, there was an outcry that the clause providing for the hon. Ministers to remain in office when Parliament is dissolved will not level the playing field. It was felt that this particular provision needed to be revisited. The recommendation from the Government was that this particular provision should be removed so that the playing field can be levelled.

 

Mr Speaker, most of the issues that were contentious have been done away with. I am wondering why people should walk out at the Second Reading Stage because it is at the Third Reading Stage when we can see whether the proposals have been incorporated or not. It is not at this stage where the proposals should be included. It is at the Third Reading Stage. Why should they walk out now? The walk-out is premature. 

 

Mr Speaker, another issue is the removal of the position of Deputy Minister. There was an outcry from members of the public that this country does not have resources to pay hon. Deputy Ministers. The Government listened and did away with the introduction of the position of Deputy Minister.

 

Sir, another problematic issue was the requirement for civil servants to resign two years before joining politics and being nominated to Parliament. This has equally been taken into account. I know that there were complaints from civil servants who want to join the political playing field that this was very discriminatory. The period has now been reduced to six months which, in my view, is quite a reasonable time for one to prepare to enter the political playing field.

 

Sir, on the issue of a coalition government, it was proposed that two losing parties should come together and form a coalition government. This has also been done away with.

 

Sir, let me talk about the issue of prescribing the manner of amending the Constitution.There has been no legislation prescribing how the Constitution can be amended. This also brought a lot of mistrust among political players including the Church which felt that we should actually prescribe legislation which will provide for the amendment of the Constitution. I think this recommendation should be taken into account as we amend the current Constitution.

 

Mr Speaker, people suggest that a Constitution should be able to stand the test of time and I agree, but when you look at the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016, you will see that it has a lot of lacunae which require to be revisited. This can only be done now and not tomorrow.

 

Mr Speaker, this Constitution has brought up a lot of legal issues such that people have started to misinterpret it in order to suit their agendas and demand that the court rules in their favour. So, it is important that the Constitution is amended this time around so that we can avoid the confusion which we are having presently. I think even the courts have been finding difficulty in interpreting the Constitution of Zambia Act No 2 of 2016. So, it is better that it is amended now, otherwise, we shall always be quarrelling over issues which are straightforward because of the way the Constitution is crafted.

 

Mr Speaker, I support this particular Motionand thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I thank you. Allow me on behalf of the people of Kaputa to sincerely thank the hon. Minister of Justice for ably representing his Cabinet onthe Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019.

 

Mr Speaker, at this particular point, allow me also to thank the Chairperson of the Select Committee and all the members who scrutinised the Bill.

 

Mr Speaker, the people of Kaputa have sent me to this important august House with a mandate to represent them fully and debate on their behalf issues of governance.

 

Mr Speaker, for us in Kaputa, we take the amendment of the Constitution as a democratic right that we have to fully enjoy. We have been following this process from 2016 to date. Most of my people have indicated that they are in support of this Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 and the reasons are very clear.

 

Mr Speaker, there are many people, especially thosewho are in urban areas who think that they represent more people than we us from rural areas do. For them, since they are able to speak loudly in urban centres, they think that those of us that represent rural people have no voice thereby having no mandate to represent them. In fact, when you listen to their debates and discussions on radio and television, you will notice that they think that they are the only ones that can be called Zambians. Zambia is for all of us, including people in rural areas like Kaputa. Therefore, we are very grateful to have this opportunity to be part of this important time where we are refining our Constitution.

 

Mr Speaker, some of us have been there and remember very well what happened in 2015 when we were trying to come up with the Draft Constitution that was passed in 2016. At that particular time, those who were in the biggest Opposition party in the country all remember how they camped in the middle of the House, where there are wild trophies, shouting on top of their voices, “We want a Constitution, we want a Constitution.”

 

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga: They wanted the Draft Constitution passed without any changes. They did not want even a comma to be removed from the document that was prepared by the National Constitution Conference (NCC). This was their voice at the time. We have been there before. Based on the voices of those in the non-governmental organisation and the Opposition at the time, we passed the Draft Constitution which we knew and they also knew had lacunae. The reason was clear. Itwas because my colleagues had demanded that the Draft Constitution was passed without changes or amendments. This was agreed to.

 

Mr Speaker, one thing that is important and must be noticed by those in Opposition is that every time we compete for political space and power, we compete for people to give us the mandate to govern the country.

 

Mr Speaker, the mandate to govern the country as far as we are concerned is…

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order on the left!

 

Mr Ng’onga: … resting in Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu and the entire Cabinet as well as those of us that are on your left. Therefore, governance issues cannot be delegated to anybody else. This role cannot be delegated to anybody. The governance issue is for us who are in leadership now. Amending of the Constitution is one of the terms of reference. This particular Government must not delegate governance issues to everybody else.

 

Mr Speaker, what is surprising for now is that there are those that think that come 2021, they are going to be in leadership. Yes, so be it. However, if they got into leadership, they must find that those that were previously there have put certain things in place. For this, we are saying to the hon. Minister of Justice and Cabinet, we are grateful. The lacunae that are in the current Constitution must not be allowed to exist going forward because that is a recipe for anarchy and confusion. The hon. Minister of Justice should do his job because this is what the people have elected him to do. He should ensure that this Constitution is looked at and refined so that even if, God forbid, he was to leave office, he will leave things in order. We are not saying that they are coming into power because they will definitely not do so.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga: I say this because I know for sure that in the areas where we come from, like in Kaputa, people are fully aware of the truth. As has already been indicated, the hon. Minister has moved amendments on issues related to a number of articles. A number of people had gone out there to tell people falsehoods that this Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 was going to bring anarchy and confusion. The people were also told that there was nothing good that was going to come from the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019. Those are the issues that we are getting from out there. To the contrary, the hon. Minister has just indicated that he has moved to address several major issues. All of us agree with what he is doing.

 

   Mr Speaker, the people have agreed on many issues, one of them being proportional representation. This country has never moved this far since Independence. We all have cried foul not necessarily because there are more men are in leadership, but because we know that proportional representation will definitely cure a lot of problems that we have. Even problems of by-elections will be cured by this Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019.

 

Mr Speaker, the people of Kaputa are behind this move and are saying to the hon. Minister of Justice that these amendments that he has moved are very progressive and important.  I do not see any reason anybody with a mandate to debate in Parliament can walk away from this discussionwhich is progressive and important. Even if you know that you will be the one that is coming to take over powertomorrow, you should still please come back to the House. Let us debate these issues level headed because that is what our people expect us to do. If you do not want proportional representation, come and say that on the Floor of this House so that the people can see that you are not for proportional representation.

 

Sir, I am calling on the youths of Kaputa the entire youth movement in Lusaka to see who is standing in theirway because this Government is indicating that it wants youths to be represented come 2021. The youths must have a share in leadership positions.

 

Hon. PF members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I have attended different meetings. Atthe Pan-African Parliament,I am in the committeethat looks at issues that concern people who are differently abled. Here, the differently abled have indicated that if we discuss issues that concern them and they are not represented, then the issues are not for them and should not even be discussed. How can you discuss issues seriously that affect the differently abled when you are just imagining how they feel? The differently abled want to be part of the decision-making process in this House. They have spoken loudly that we have left them out of the process for many years. Now, they are saying, “Zambia, can you also listen to us?” They are saying: “The fact that we are differently abled does not mean that we cannot take part in governance issues.” The differently abled can carry out several duties in the governance system.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga: So, the differently abled are listening out there. If you are out there thinking that you will be forming Government, you should know that the differently abled are listening. They will be your masters tomorrow and will tell you in your face that you denied them the opportunity to be part of the Government.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbulakulima: Nabakana!

 

Mr Ng’onga: Yes, they have actually refused. It is not only the differently abled, but the women as well who need representation. The women we have in the House are very few. The world has been progressing. When you go to South Africa, you will see the number of women in leadership. Zimbabwe which had been learning from us now has more women in Parliament than we have. Zimbabwe has proportional representation in its Constitution. Look at Rwanda. It is probably at fifty-fifty status. Why should we remain behind? This is a very important and progressive amendment that we are looking for at this particular point. So, if hon. Colleagues who are out there are listening, we urge them to come back. Let us discuss these issues. Come and represent your people because we know that women are in the majority in this country. If you play with women, you play with fire.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga: I can assure them that when we go for the 2021 general elections, they will have themselves to blame because the women are listening. However, we are very hopeful that the hon. Minister of Justice has done his part. He has laid it bear that the necessary amendments will be moved.

 

Mr Speaker, your Select Committee did a fantastic job. It held so many meetings to listen attentively to the people that came to make submissions and it analysed the data. The Government has listened to most of the submissions that were progressive and positive and has come up with amendments. Here we are now, looking forward to the enactment. If this Bill went through, we all would have moved a step further. We have been there before. Those of you who were there when we were considering the other Draft Constitution know that a number of things could have been introduced into the Constitution. This is what happens normally if other people think that by not passing this Bill or amendments, they are winning. The whole country ends up losing out for we have to go back several years and start afresh. This is not what the people of Zambia want.

 

Mr Speaker, the other day, I was saying that unfortunately, politicians think that they are in the majority and so should carry this country forward. Even out of the probably 18 million Zambians after the census projection, we could say that currently politicians are below 5 million or less. So, they should not determine the future of the people. Let us do our jobs when we are given the mandate to do these jobs. We will not stay on for long. Why should we hold people at ransom?

 

Mr Mwamba: Eh!

 

Mr Ng’onga: If it was possible, the people of Kaputa would have walked to Parliament to pass the Bill, but they have sent one person to represent them.

 

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga:The people I represent in Kaputa said that when I represent them, I should tell this House that they want the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 to be amended so that we can move forward.

 

Mr Speaker, the other leaders who have debated have talked about progressive issues which I do not want to repeat. However, I would like to indicate that there are some falsehoods that cannot go without comment. For example, I heard some debaters on radio and television indicate that the Constitution (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 wants to change the tenure of office of the President from five years to seven years. I urge Zambians to not only read the Constitution of Zambia as amended in 2016, but also the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 and the Select Committee Report. This issue is not there. The tenure remains the same. It is a five year mandate for every president who gets elected and not seven years.

 

Sir, the disqualification of the President is an issue that I have talked about. If you read the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 and the Select Committee report, you will see exactly what the majority of the people debated on and put there.

 

Mr Speaker, there are some people who have asked why the Government is spending so much time talking about the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 when there are poverty issues in this country, the economy is begging answers and the coronavirus is devastating the entire nation. Sir, the Constitution making and refinement process is a governance issue. We have to do first things first. If we do not improve our governance issues by putting in place the democracy that we all want and the legal frameworks to operate with, we might fail to solve even the issues that we think are important.

 

Mr Speaker, some may remember that there was a referendum on the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, the United Party for National Development (UPND) never supported it. It has never supported any amendments to the Constitution from 2006, if we go back to history. It has always opposed amendments thinking, that when it comes to power, it will create its own amendments. However, it does not work like that. Wherever they are, they must know that people are listening and they know that the UPND hon. Members are basically spoilers who always want to damage good things. The country will not support them. 

 

Mr Speaker, the people of Kaputa are grateful for this opportunity you have given to me to add some words on their behalf. I support this Bill and the hon. Ministers must go ahead and support it.

 

I thank you, Sir. 

 

Mr Mwila (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this debate. I will debate on behalf of the people of Chimwemwe Constituency. I will make contributions on four articles only in order to give chance to other hon. Members of Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker, let me talk about the article which talks about the primary function of the Bank of Zambia (BoZ). Initially, the people of Chimwemwe Constituency directed me not to support the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 because it was put to them that in this Bill, the primary function of BoZ will be removed and taken to Cabinet Office and that the printing of money will be done at Cabinet office. However, after it was put clearly by the Government, through the hon. Minister of Justice, that this was not the official position and that the primary function of the BoZ will remain as it is, the people of Chimwemwe have directed me to support the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 on that basis.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, Hear!

 

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, it was put to the people of Chimwemwe Constituency that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 was making an attempt to remove  retirees and relatives of deceased retirees from the payroll as they await to be paid terminal benefits,which could have resulted in throwing these retirees into destitution. This would also have resulted in their children being kicked out of school because their only source of income was the basic pay which they get as they await their terminal benefits. This income was going to be grabbed from them. Two days ago, the Government clarified that it was not going to change the provision that retirees who have not been paid their terminal benefits remain on the Government payroll. As a result, the people of Chimwemwe have directed me to support the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019.

 

Sir, on the provision that the National Assembly has to approve debt contraction by Cabinet, I think the same is the situation. The people of Chimwemwe are grateful that the Government has clarified that Parliament shall continue to approve debt contraction before it is contracted by Cabinet. The people of Chimwemwe are appealing to the hon. Minister of Finance to, this time around, sign the Statutory Instrument to operationalise this good provision in the Act so that we start seeing the debt contraction plans being debated on the Floor of the House. For the last four years, we have not seen that happen here.

 

Mr Speaker, the forth one is the issue of Deputy Ministers. The people of Chimwemwe Constituency have a different view on this position. I know the Committee which sat said no to having Deputy Ministers because it gave in to pressure from non-governmental organisations (NGOs). However, if that is the wish of more than 156 constituencies, then Chimwemwe will go along with them. Although, for now, the people of Chimwemwe believe that Deputy Ministers should be allowed to exist. Their reasoning can be seen by what happens at the Ministry of Local Government. The hon. Minister of Local Government practically has no time to go through all the 120 districts to check what is happening in the councils across the country. Mondays are for Cabinet meetings. Thus, in a week, it means that the hon. Minister just has Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday to attend to issues and, if Parliament is sitting, it is even worse. So, what time do these Cabinet Ministers have to check what is happening in local authorities across the country? As a result of that, mayors and district chairpersons have field days. You see this mayor taking a picture of themselves when about to enter the office and post on Face book with a caption: “The mayor is entering the office”. Even when tea is served, the mayors and district chairpersons take selfies and post them on Facebook or whatsApp and say:“the mayor is now taking tea or Ricoffy from South Africa.”

 

Mr Speaker, if you walk around most of these councils, you will find that garbage is the order of the day. You see a mayor on a Saturday posting a picture on Face book saying:“I am cleaning a house which am about to shift into.” They forget that they are supposed to be collecting garbage across the cities, but are busy cleaning their own homes and posting on Face book.

 

Laughter!

 

Mr Mwila:Mr Speaker, on Equalisation Fund, we are aware that 20 per cent out of the 100 per cent which the hon. Minister of Finance sends to the local authority is supposed to go towards capital projects. I am an independent hon. Member of Parliament from Chimwemwe in Kitwe. I cannot point at any project that has been done by the council out of the 20 per cent that comes from the Equalisation Fund. I have seen nothing. What is causing that is that Cabinet Ministers are overwhelmed with work. If it is the wish of the people of Zambia that Deputy Ministers should not be re-introduced, then they should not complain when they see too much garbage not collected. The Cabinet Minister cannot divide himself across the 120 districts across the country.

 

Mr Speaker, another example is the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources. Although there are thirty ministries, I will just talk about two. At the moment, the Land Titling Programme is going on and about 2,000 titles have been issued in Lusaka. If one asked me or drove to Chimwemwe Constituency in Kitwe and asked how many residents have benefited from the Land Titling Programme, they would find that not even one has benefited from it. Maybe, the people in Lusaka have benefited from the programme. So, what could be the problem? It is the same issue. The hon. Minister is overwhelmed with work. For instance, there are Cabinet meetings on Monday and for the remaining four days or so, she has to attend to office work. Along the way, there could be one or two international trips. If she goes out of the country for one week then that is the end. When she comes back, she has to attend to some political competitors in the constituency, especially that we are going towards the 2021 General Elections.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwila: So, people have started eyeing these positions. Therefore, these people are overwhelmed. If it is the wish of the people, then they should not be complaining when land titles are not given to them because the hon. Ministers cannot manage to ensure thateverything is done. They are just too overwhelmed.

 

Mr Speaker, my last point, and this is my conclusion …

 

Hon. Government Member: Ah! Hammer! Kokolapo apo iwe!

 

Mr Mwila:Sir, it is unfortunate that the people who cried the most in 2016 are the same people who have walked out. They could have seized this opportunity. It is the view of the people of Chimwemwe Parliamentary Constituency that they could have seized this opportunity to clarify the issue of the fourteen days where the case must be heard and determined so that we avoid such issues to come up again next year. In fact, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 has proposed to increase the period from fourteen days to thirty days. So, if it is their position to walk out, then okay, that is fine. The people of Chimwemwe will go with that. They will not mind that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 will not gunner a two thirds majority and will flop.  I do not see the patriotic Front (PF) Government crying over this issue, but the people who will again come and lose elections in 2021 and again rush to the courts –

 

Hon. Government Members: 2021!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, we saw how some learned lawyers abandoned their clients at the High Court grounds. We also saw how some learned lawyers and paralegals …

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwila: …spent thirteen days just raising preliminary issues on day one, day two and day three. When it was put to them that, in fact, that was the last day, they decided to abandon their client and thought that maybe after they walked out, then the bench would be forced to add some days so that they could go back to make their case. However, the judges refused and said that, in fact, that fourteen days was fourteen days and it was ending on that particular day.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwila: That is how people turned the Constitutional Court grounds into a mourning ground.

Laugher

 

 Mr Mwila: We do not want that to be repeated.

 

Sir, we have this opportunity to rectify that in this Bill. What is it they want? Maybe they are saying that they cannot trust these people because immediately they open up the Constitution to amendments, they can slot in one or two clauses and ambush them. What clauses are they referring to? In fact, they have an opportunity because they can open it and then, carry out simple arithmetic along the way and then walk out during voting which requires a two thirds majority.

 

Sir, although I am hearing this for the first time, it has been put to me that we can vote twice when opening and closing the process. If this Executive will change or reverse its plan on retirees, you will see me walking out because I will not support it. If they are very concerned about the Executive introducing some clauses along the way which may not be part of their plan, why can they not take the same route? So, opposing for the sake of opposing is the main reason people lose chances.

 

Mr Mwale:Mwaona manje!

 

Mr Mwila:This is an opportunity for them to make their political gain by pushing for the clauses which the people of Zambia had championed for. By walking out, they are just shooting themselves in the foot. This will not help them.

 

Sir, by the way, I do not know where some people are drawing the confidence and the position that the Constitution should not be amended.Wait for the 2021 Presidential and General Elections. Where are they drawing the confidence that come 2021, is it 13th August, 2021, they will win the Presidential and General Elections? What if they lose? Further, as things stand, they do not even stand any chance of winning.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwila: When elections are held, people are given a five year mandate. So, the Patriotic Front (PF) won. The margin does not matter, but it won. So, it has a five-year mandate. Those who are staying away from the process to frustrate others are not helping themselves. 

 

Sir, the Ruling Party has a five year mandate which has not expired yet. So, those who have walked out should now tell the nation what is in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 which they are against and are not happy with. At least, I have spoken for the people of Chimwemwe Constituency. I am happy that I will go back to Chimwemwe to report to the people that the clauses they told me not to support in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 were, in fact, reversed by the Government. So, I have obeyed the instructions and directives they gave me to vote for the Bill. I am going to do just that. Furthermore, the people of Chimwemwe will not cry even if this Bill fails on account of not meeting a two thirds majority. We are far from that.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbulakulima (Milenge): Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Milenge and, indeed, on my own behalf, I would like to thank you for this rare opportunity. It is rare because it is historical.

 

Sir, let me quote the words of the former hon. Minister of Justice, Hon. Simbyakula, in the last process of Constitution making. He said:

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order on the left!

 

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, he said:

 

“A Constitution is not a single issue, but a complex multi-dimensional document consisting of a multitude of diverse issues.”

 

Sir, this makes me conclude that this issue makes consensus very difficult. Our colleagues who are out there have been arguing about the Constitution making process. My colleague gave an example of 2015. I will give an example of 2007/8, when the whole process started under the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, Sc., and I was sitting here in the House. It reminds me how much resources we have wasted from 2007 to date, but still grappling with the same problem. This is why my theme of debate today is premised on the principle of kanongaebo. In Luapula, we say kanongaebo meaning, “Unless, it is them”.

 

Sir, I do not see any reason we should resist participating in this process. The late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., was heavily criticized during the constitution making process.  We know that we have had many commissions such as the Chona Commission, the Mvunga Commission, the Mwanakatwe Commission and others. In all these commissions, the words, the language and the desires have been the same. I still remember what the late President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata,said when he constituted theTechnical Committee, and I quote:

 

“Although we are doing this, we know what the Zambian people want because they have spoken and they have been speaking the same language.”

 

 Sir, here we are today, dear colleagues, what is it that this Government has not done? I have said that I was in the House in 2010 and this is my third appearance on the constitution making process. My heart bleeds and I am reminded of the late Denis Liwewe, the iconic football commentator, when he lamented and I quote:

 

“Young boys, I have moved with you for the past thirty-five years from the Atlas Mountain to the Drakensberg Mountain all in search of glory which has eluded us.”

 

Mr Speaker, similarly, from 2007 to date, I have been looking for a Constitution that will be accepted by the people of Zambia. I hoped this could be the time when we could come together and agree to make ourselves that Constitution.

 

Mr Speaker, I ask the people out there who doubt what the main contentious issues are that they would like to be incorporated. I stand to be corrected, but the hon. Minister of Justicehas made huge amendments. All those things that people wanted have been incorporated and I still believe there is still room at the Committee Stage.

 

Mr Speaker, we are doing this and the whole country is listening. What is it that this country must do? What is it that this Government must do? What is it that it has not done? All those good issues in the Select Committee report which they doubted the Government or Cabinet would work on have been incorporated. There is still room if they believe that they still have brilliant ideas for them to bring them to the table. Why then are we hesitating? Kano nga ebo! The only thing that they want is that it must be them, but for how long? Is that being patriotic?

 

Mr Speaker, I know that the whole country is watching. The people of Zambia must ask themselves what the stumbling block is or what the Government has not done.

 

Mr Speaker, initially, the issue was the process. They said the process was wrong. What process? There were many processes from the Mwanakatwe, Chona and Mvunga Commissions. There are many processes that have taken place prior to this Bill including, the NCC and the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) to date. The current discussion is part of the process because we are still trying to correct and enact the Bill. They have now moved away from the issue of the process to the content. The content has now been discussed, debated and forwarded to the people. In addition, this Bill was withdrawn to allow more Zambians to participate and, indeed, they came forward. So, what else can one do?

 

Mr Speaker, what is contentious? My friends have spoken well on some of the issues that the people really want. They have talked about the mixed member electoral system. The women, the disabled and the youth have been looking forward to this article. If we miss this opportunity today, believe you me, it will take another ten years to have another one. Why are we not sympathetic to the people of Zambia, the youth and the women? When people talk of women, it is not political, it is real. Given responsibility and chance, women are more stable. Rwanda and other countries are doing very well because they have incorporated women.

 

Mr Speaker, this is the time for us as Zambians to reflect on that. Let us bring on board people who can add value to this country. Why should we stay away and wait for another opportunity which we may not even see? We have debated the 50 per cent plus one clause. Most of the people thought that the Government was going to withdraw the 50 per cent plus one clause and go back to a coalition Government. However, the listening Government has refused and since the people have spoken, we have to go ahead with the 50 plus one clause.

 

Mr Speaker, beyond that, on the issue of the running mate, we have learnt a lesson the hard way. We have lost two sitting Heads of State and have held two expensive bye-elections.  However, people have said why not incorporate the running mate clause? Sir, this has been done.

 

Mr Speaker, another issue that was very topical was pension benefits. The issue was why people should be removed from the payroll after having worked so hard before getting their benefits. Why should they be thrown on the streets? However, the Government has said that they  will remain on the payroll until they are paid their benefits. The Government has listened to the people. What else can one do?

 

Mr Speaker, as regards petition of election, as my colleagues have said, the issue was that fourteen days were not enough. This has now been extended to bring stability to the country. Therefore, any reasonable and loving Zambian must be able to join in.

 

Mr Speaker, another contentious issue on which the hon. Minister of Justice has done very well is that of debt contraction. It has been a topical issue from 2007, since the time I have been here. To date, Zambians out there believe that one person called the hon. Minister of Finance should not sit alone in an air-conditioned office or under a tree and make decisions on behalf of the people of Zambia. Parliament must be incorporated to be part of the decision making. We have said yes, Parliament must approve, but the Opposition stays away to kill this? How can it be?

 

Mr Speaker, when we talk of delimitation, apart from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), all hon. Members of Parliament have been going through difficultiesin terms of representation. Some constituencies like Mpika in Muchinga, Lufwanyama, Kasempa, Mwinilunga and Milenge are so huge that representation is very ineffective. Therefore, for us to enhance representation, the Government really needs to delimitate. This is the time, and if we miss this opportunity, it will take us another twenty years. Is that what we want?

 

Mr Speaker, civil servants have now been given six months and not two years to resign if they want to join politics. This is acceptable because most of the people thought two years was punitive and this Parliament did not mean well. Two years would have meant them being discriminated against. At least, it has now been reduced to six months. So, you can see that most of the items that were contentious have been amended. What more can you ask for?

 

Mr Speaker, most of the people believe that hon. Members, especially the backbenchers were very selfish because they wanted the position of Deputy Ministerwhen these gentlemen and ladies have said no to this. The people of Zambia have spoken and that provision has been removed. The article is not coming back.

 

Mr Speaker, people thought that a coalition government is forming government through the back door. In this case, the clause on the coalition government has also been removed. So, I believe that most of the items have been smoothened and worked on. So, we need to come together and pass this Constitution.

 

Mr Speaker, the Constitution is a very difficult document and for us to be labouring that there must be consensus is utopia. Somehow, there must be some minimum level of amassing supportto work together and this is exactly what has happened.

 

Mr Speaker, as I end my debate, I ask myself and the Zambian people out there. We have declared Zambia a Christian nation and I support that. I read the Bible and I see that in Sodom and Gomorrah, people were wicked and Abraham asked God –

 

Interjection

 

Mr Mbulakulima: It is Bishop Mbulakulima. Do not worry.

 

The peopleSodom and Gomorrah had committed grave sins and God was about to destroy them. So, Abraham asked God if he was going to destroy the righteous one with the wicked one and God refused and said that if there were righteous ones, he would spare them.  Then Abraham asked again if God would destroy them, suppose there are fifty righteous ones out of millions. He said he would not destroy them if there were fifty righteous ones. Abraham asked again and said what if there are forty-five? God said, again, that he would not destroy.He came to thirty and God said if there were thirty, he would not destroy. Even at twenty, he said he would not destroy because there were righteous ones. He went up to ten. This means that had there been righteous ones in Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord would not have destroyed them.

 

Sir, I ask my colleagues out there if they do not see two, ten or twenty good things out of all these clauses that can help them and the country. Are they all wicked? Do they not see anything righteous in this whole episode? Kano nga ebo.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I am asking Zambians why we want to throw out the baby together with the dirty water. Can we not find good clauses which can help the country?

 

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Milenge, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube (Chilubi): (Blew into the microphone) Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity –

 

Mr Speaker: Were you testing the microphone?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I am a new hon. Member of Parliament and I am used to testing microphones. So, I needed to test the microphone.

 

Sir, I would also like to thank the hon. Minister of Justice for the way in which he ably tabulated issues. Zambians now know where we, as Government, stand. I will try to address myselfmore on political practice linked to our Constitution than on the clauses that our able hon. Members of Parliament have debated.

 

Mr Speaker, I am a very surprised young man. I remember that when some people became players on the political scene, they only got interested in the constitution making process when they smelled that a degree clause would be introduced as a qualification for candidacy. This, they felt, would favour them over some other people who possibly did not have degrees. That is not being genuine. I will try by all means to use parliamentary language even with all the emotive issues we are debating.

 

Sir, it is a problem that the people who have been crying about the electoral process and things that are linked to the Constitution can walk out of the House. It is a very unpatriotic act. Whereas they are trying to entertain an idea, which I feel is very utopia, that they will qualify to rule Zambia in 2021, I assure them that as a young person who networks with other young people, including in areas they call strongholds, the referee will swallow the whistle in 2021.

 

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Just like they took it with energy –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Chilubi, one of the rules of debate is not to debate ourselves. I have been checking all the debates and the sense I get is that your primary focus is to debate your colleagues across the Floor which, unfortunately, the rules do not permit. I encourage you to identify issues in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 that you would like to address to the House and the nation at large.

 

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I thank you, although, I thought the situation we are facing today is more of a political culture than a political fight.

 

Sir, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 had objectives before it reached this stage. I will not labour to go through the objectives which a lot of able debaters have done. One of the claims that people have been making is that the constitution-making process was not consultative. I hope I am not debating myself, but we know that hon. Members of Parliament are also part of the representative democracy that we enjoy.

 

Sir, some hon. Members of Parliament attended the National Dialogue Forum (NDF) as well as other different processes including provincial conferences that were called to beef up the constitution making process for it to reach this stage. Alas, all that work has been thrown away and now opponents of the Bill are emphasising that the process was not consultative. I did indicate in my maiden speech that the people of Chilubi had sent me to, among other things, prioritise the constitution making process because it has a lot of meaning to them.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, Chilubi is divided into the mainland, the Island and the swamps. It is a very vast place such that the only hope that the people of Chilubi have is the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 so that the place can be divided into two for the proper distribution of social amenities to the people.

 

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Sir, at the rate the country is moving and the degree of un-patriotism being exhibited, I can see that the wish may be defeated, but I know that the creator is alive.He will take charge.

 

Hon. Members: hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube:Mr Speaker, among other important things which are in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 is the issue of our country being a Christian nation. I know that some practices that go hand in hand with some people’s political practices are against Article 4. I know that from a practical point of view, the clause Christian nation provision has not brought any conflict amongst people practicing other regions. I think retaining the Christian nation proposal is alright, especially if you are to look at our citizenry the majority of which are Christians. Democracy favours the majority. Therefore, as I look at this proposal, I do not find any genuine person who should reject it, especially that Christians are also voters.

 

Mr Speaker, let me address the issue of a mixed member proportion Parliament. I did indicate that part of my passion is to promote the plight of children, women and the youth. The youth form an intersection set which can include the differently abled. There are youths that are differently abled, arefemale and stand for the rights of children.

 

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Chilubi, I did indicate in my maiden speech that my heart bled when I saw the dismantling of the referendum. I hoped that this Constitution making platform was going to provide that window where young people would be represented through a voice in this Parliament. I know that there are young people in this House, but when the voter landscape is considered, you will realise that about eighteen to forty years of age are the majority of our voters. Since the youths are in the majority, they should be represented. What we are doing in this window that is providing an opportunity for the youths to have fair representation.

 

Mr Speaker, I have the temptation again to address the political culture. What I have witnessed as a young person in this nation is that people want to drag us into supporting a failed political career of possibly one person. What we are witnessing is not necessarily an argument on the Constitution, but everything to do with supporting the failed political career of one person. The nation will not be allowed to be reduced to cultism through indoctrination.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: This nation will not be reduced to a point where everything surrounds one person whereby if that person does not become a President then the whole country should go in different directions. This is the fight that we are witnessing today. It has nothing to do with the Constitution. The hon. Minister of Justice was candid enough to give this House the provisions which are in the Constitution. What else is needed?I will be referring to the walk out, unfortunately. I have that temptation.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Fube:Mr Speaker, in becoming President, hon. Members of Parliament and councillors, we support adult suffrage. The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 has a spirit that is consolidating adult suffrage. Anyone who intends to be a leader, especially on the political platform should be sensitive to supporting adult suffrage. If we are not consolidating adult suffrage, then we better forget about the democracy that we preach.

 

Mr Speaker, the Constitution, among other things, answers questions why, where, when and how. When we talk about questions of when, the Constitution responds with when somebody is supposed to vacate office, when we are supposed to have elections and when we are supposed to do this and that. That is how the Constitution responds to questions. The Constitution answers the question of who,for example, with who is supposed to occupy which office and at what point? Who qualifies to occupy that office? Those are the questions which the Constitution responds to.

 

Mr Speaker, the Constitution also solves situations. For example, if a President dies, it explains what is supposed to be done and why it is supposed to be done. The Constitution answers such questions. In short, the Constitution answers the five Ws and one H. If the Constitution speaks to that, I cannot conceive why a human being in our land can be against it. I do not know what we intend to do and whom we intend to –

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chilubi, you know, my concern is that you are not debating the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019. Debate the Bill.

 

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I thank you for that counsel and I will continue my debate.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I said that the Constitution is encouraging a lot of things.We heard through the debate that was happening outside this House that people have been floating to whip the emotions of Zambians that the Government does not want to retain 50 per cent plus one and that it wants to extend the President’s term to seven years. Here we are, and the hon. Minister of Justice has not only provided a plate, but a platter.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Fube: Sir, I am sure most of us who consume platters remember that a platter is better than a plate. I can see that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 is trying to facilitate the relationship between the duty bearer and the right holder. If this document is meant to facilitate the relationship between the duty bearer and the right holder and even clarify it further, I do not see why we should shun the debate. I do not see why we should stay away and have wholesale condemnation of the Bill. What is more painful is that most of the people who seem to be shading black lights on the Constitution are not even doing some …

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Withdraw the word ‘lies’. It is not acceptable.

 

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, I said “shading black lights” and not “lies”.

 

Mr Speaker: Continue.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Fube: Mr Speaker, let me change the language.

 

Mr M. Zulu: Mother tongue interference.

 

Mr Fube: Yes, it is due to mother tongue interference.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Fube: It is an issue of dialect. If you ask most of the people who are against the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 in totality what is wrong with it, they will only be talking about withdrawing it. They will say, “Let them withdraw it because it is a bad law”. At least, we would have appreciated if they could do even a bit of retail than the wholesale shopping they are doing. If they did retail shopping, we would have appreciated their genuineness.

 

Mr Speaker, this is a very important document.It is the supreme law of the land that we cannot allow to be tinkered with. We cannot go on with this kind of spirit. The nation is listening and waiting to see what will come out as we debate the Bill in this House. Where is their hope? We spent taxpayers’ money on this document. I know that the journey has been very long for those who were there from 1972 to date. We are struggling as a nation and have a lot of needs. The nation is in dire need of allocating resources towards various social needs so that at the end of day we can start performing.

 

Mr Speaker, as I debate, I want to address the issue of certain principles. The Constitution among other things – the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No.10 of 2019 – I was cautioned that we are debating the Bill and not the Constitution. The Bill is promoting participation and empowerment. The question is what is the Bill promoting? It is promoting the least of our brothers in the manner that they should participate in governance issues. If the Bill goes through, it will promote the issue of social justice.

 

Mr Speaker, we complain about reducing the radius from one clinic to another and from one school to another so that a school boy in a rural area can access education. When hon. Members say that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) that we are given is not enough, Chilubi is a case point.It is a very big area andhence we are praying that through this Bill, it can be delimitated. We can agree with the report that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has produced so that things are in tandem and a child in Chilubi can access school and medical care anda mother can surviveduring child delivery. This is how this Bill is promoting good health, education and social justice.

 

Mr Speaker, the Billis promoting participation. I was one of those who got a bit injured. My background is that I was a District Commissioner (DC).When I saw the two years remaining before the general elections, I developed some goose bumps because I was interested in becoming a Member of Parliament and people of Chilubi used toencourage me to considersaving them at some point. This recommendation, which has also been upheld by our Cabinet,that a civil Servant can resign to join politics, at least, six months before elections has saved a lotof people,especially that people are not supposed to be discriminated against before the law. Civil servants too have good enough experience that they can offer add value to national governance. I think the six months that we have been given is something that is promoting participation in the governance of our country.

 

Mr Speaker, the mixed member proposition is something that is promoting participation. Even when we come to the clause for Christian nation provision, we are still promoting participation because practice has shown that no one has lost their life because of the Christian nation provision. I think we will go with the same spirit.

 

Mr Speaker, how is the Billempowering? It is empowering even this very House to have an oversight roleon debt contraction.So, it can have a say on acquisition of loans. That is empowering. From my simple civics that I learnt at school, I was told that the Government has three arms being the Judiciary, the Legislature as well as the Executive. So, if this Constitution is empowering and strengthening the existence of the doctrine of Separation of Powers, I do not see why we should wash our hands off our responsibility, unless we do not mean well.

 

Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to say that with my whole spirit,my whole height, though short, …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Fube: … and all my strength, I am behind the Motion that the hon. Minister of Justice moved on behalf of the Government.

 

 I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, first of all, I am very disappointed that a Motion of this nature, which needs 100 per cent participation, is not going to receive that kind of attention.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order on the right!

 

Mr Simbao: I thought that the hon. Minister of Justice did a lot of justice to the Motion. He came out and clearly stated the position of Cabinet. It is a position which was very consultative,meaning that Cabinet did not go by White Paper, but discussed the Bill fully and was very magnanimous to accept that most of the things that were put forward were not necessary. So, I thought there was going to be 100 per cent participation in the House. I say this because not being part of something does not mean it will not happen. I remember in 1996 when the United National Independence Party (UNIP) decided to boycott elections. Unfortunately or fortunately, the country still had a Government in place.

 

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao: What happened afterwards is that UNIP went into oblivion. So, it is not very good to see that we do not want to attend to a serious Motion like this one as a whole House. I say this because our reading culture in this country is very poor. Usually we just want to be told something in summary. People just craft anything they want you to hear and you take it as reality. That is very bad for us.

 

Mr Speaker, I know that not many Zambians have read the Constitution, butmaybe I might be making a wrong assumption. I know that not many Zambians have read the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, No. 10 of 2019 and that not many Zambians have read your Select Committee’s Report. So, what is happening is that people are just listening to what other people want to say. These people do not want to speak in the House where they can be asked to put facts on the Table. They say things outside this Housebecause they can say anything. That is what is saddening.

 

Mr Speaker, my constituency is divided into three regions. When I went round the three regionsI had to meet teachers, preachers or pastors and Government officials. I did not have a lot of problems after discussing in a similar manner that the hon. Minister of Justice has discussed the Bill this afternoon because I used the Committee’s Report. I told them that as I was going there, I was told that the Committee’s Report would be supported. So, while I put forward all the three papers, I still said that the Committee’s Report is what is going to be, most likely,presented by the Government and the audience did not have problems with that. So, I wonder what other hon. Members of Parliament told their constituents. If any constituent told them to come and reject the Bill then I do not understand what the hon. Member told them.

 

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao: It is very straightforward. Many of the contentious issues, some of which I personally was not against, I might say here, were removed. So, if all these contentious issues that were picked out were removed, then what is the problem? Why are people not presenting their problems?

 

Mr Speaker, I have also learnt something. It is something I cannot explain well. Somebody,while in the Opposition,would argue against me, but immediately they come into the Government they do exactly what they argued against. So, you wonder what they use.

 

Mr Speaker, I know for sure that what is being presented here today is good for this country. The Constitution is the bearer of peace. There is no Government that can do with a bad Constitution. What is happening today is to try and remove the lacunae, things that were seen as mistakes. For example, we stayed on as hon. Ministers in Government after the dissolution of Parliament because it is provided for in the current Constitution. The Constitution says if the person who appoints you isstill in power, you are still an hon. Minister. Yet, another part of the Constitution says, if Parliament is dissolved then you are no longer a Member of Parliament and, therefore, cannot be an hon. Minister. That is a contradiction. These are things that we are trying to remove and make right.

 

Where are we going wrong? What is the problem? Why can they not stand on the Floor of the House and say what they do not agree with? They are not here to do that. So, what are we going to say? I appeal to the people of Zambia to read these things that concern them. One thing I must say here is that it is God who gives power. No matter what you try to do, if God has not allowed it, it will not happen. So, God is the one who has allowed the people in the current Government to be in power. Moreover, if they continue doing well, like they are doing now, God will probably give them the grace to continue.

 

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simbao: So, where is the Government going wrong? Some of the clauses that I have heard so much about include the one about Deputy Minister. As the hon. Minister of Justice put it, this clause has been removed and, I must say, at great pains. The removal of the position of Deputy Ministers has taken away the visibility of the Government. There is no way the few Cabinet Ministers can be everywhere every time. I know this because I have been in the Government before. People want to see an hon. Minister. It does not matter that is an hon. Deputy Minister or a Cabinet Minister. All they want is to see an hon. Minister. Once an hon. Minister addresses them, they are happy and comfortable. They feel that their problem has been attended to. However, with the few numbers that we have here currently, there is no visibility of the Government.

 

Mr Speaker, I feel sorry for the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development because there is so much happening in that ministry. I do not see him anywhere. If he had a deputy, he would really show this country what is happening as regards where the money is going and how it is being used. He would showcase what this Government is actually up to.

 

This Government has started with infrastructure development and has turned the country around. Once it is done with this, maybe it will then turn its attention to the health sector, the education sector or the agriculture sector and so on. At least, you can show the people of Zambia that this is what the Government is doing and there is no one who can dispute that. When we have no hon. Deputy Ministers, it is very difficult to do this. The man gets tired. He cannot be in Msanzala and all other places. Nowadays, we have got bridges getting washed away almost everywhere, but the hon. Minister cannot be everywhere. However, if they are the two of them, things can happen. It is not just that, but also, a Cabinet Minister is very lonely in the ministry because the other people are technocrats and he cannot share with them most of the things that are politically inclined. He needs somebody that he can offload some things to. Therefore, I am very saddened that the position of Deputy Minister was removed. I was once an hon. Deputy Minister and a Cabinet Minister. So, I know what these two things are.

 

Mr Speaker, I would like to talk about pension funds. Of course, it is well known that it takes such a long time for people to get paid that some die without getting their money. It was thought that maybe, we could hold the Government at ransom by saying it should pay people within six months. This was rejected and the Government has accepted. It has said that it is fine and shall continue with the status quo. People will be on the pay roll as long as they are not paid. So, what is wrong with that? That is what people wanted and that is what the Government has said it is going to do. Therefore, I do not see where the other people are missing it.

 

Mr Speaker, as regards by-elections, every one cries about by-elections. There are, obviously, some definite by-elections.  Where a person dies, that is a by-election no one can avoid.By doing all these things, we wanted to create a way to avoid wastage of money. We wanted to see how we could put a stop to this kind of wastage of money. Unfortunately, the people standing out there think that the people in the Government would take advantage and put their people all the time. This cannot be the case. The system of getting a replacement was going to be arrived at in league with everyone else who is in the political arena as long as, obviously, people do not walk out when it was brought before Parliament. Again, something as good as this was stopped and the Government accepted. At great pain, it will continue to fund by-elections. We hear people singing that the Government creates by-elections. Even when a by-election is created by a person dying in a road accident, they still say that the Government has created a by-election. This is very shameful. We almost found a way of stopping this wasteful governance.

 

Sir, let me now come to the issue of a coalition government. Again, this was one way of trying to avoid a re-run or run-off, which is a very expensive undertaking. If things had not worked well in 2016, probably, we would have experienced a re-run. Imagine how much money is spent in just one general election. A Presidential election is as good as a general election because it is conducted in all districts and all constituencies. It is so expensive. This was the reason the issue of the coalition Government was suggested. However, it was rejected and the Government has accepted that position. It will keep things the way they are in the present Constitution. So, again, where have we gone wrong?

 

Sir, as regards proportional representation, I am fully for it.  I am even against the first past the post …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order on the left!

 

Mr Simbao: … because proportional representation gives the proper guide from the beginning on how you apportion the seats. So, this has been brought in by the suggestion of a mixed proportional representation, which is as good as the other one. However, this will definitely see an increased number of ladies, youths and other people who are not present or who are very few in this Parliament. So, again, where has the Government gone wrong because this is the best way we should do things? Maybe, we are now realising it a bit late, but it is the best way it should be done.

 

Sir, I think that everyone who belongs to the Patriotic Front (PF) must be happy that they are taking this up because it has been difficult to do this in the past. So, since it has come to us and the people of Zambian, we should accept it because it will enable us hear all voices in this Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker, I want to say to the people of Zambia that almost all countries have Opposition. However, opposing is done by bringing out voices in the right place. Parliament is where everything will be concluded, which means that it will decide on the Constitution. It is here in this House where people are supposed to speak and let people hear them. In this House, they would say all their fears and their fears would be allayed. However, if they are depending on speaking outside, where people like me cannot answer because I am not protected there, but here, then, it is a problem. So, the people of Zambia must know that only what is said on the Floor of the House carries weight because only facts are considered as compared to what is said anywhere else. The people of Zambia must know that.

 

Sir, what is happening today or the other few days to come is important. Everyone who was sent as a representative from the constituencies must come in the Houseand either disagree or agree. Either way, when the Constitution amendment is passed, it is passed.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mawere (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to debate …

 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

______

 

The House Adjourned at1956hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 18thMarch, 2020.