DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 28th November, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

VOLUNTARY MEDICAL MALE CIRCUMCISION EXERCISE

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Health, in conjunction with the Society for Family Health (SFH) and its partners, will conduct a mass voluntary medical male circumcision exercise for hon. Members of Parliament.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Livune!

Mr Speaker: Female hon. Members of Parliament will also be provided with cervical cancer screening services and other information on reproductive health, including family planning. Interested members of staff may also access these services.

The exercise will be conducted at Parliament Building this Friday, 30th November, 2012, between 1300 hours and 1700 hours. 

Hon. Member: There will be no quorum!

Mr Speaker: I, therefore, urge hon. Members to take advantage of this service and provide the requisite leadership to stimulate the demand for voluntary medical male circumcision in the general public of the Republic.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

STATUS OF PAYMENTS TO FARMERS BY FOOD RESERVE AGENCY FOR THE 2012 CROP PURCHASING PROGRAMME 

The Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to inform the nation, through this august House, about the status of the crop marketing programme, in particular, the status of payments to farmers by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) for the 2012 crop purchasing season.

Sir, I wish to inform the House that the 2012/2013 FRA crop buying programme officially opened on 27th July, 2012. It was planned to run up to 31st October, 2012, for maize purchases while the exercise for paddy rice would continue until 30th November 2012. The Agency’s target for maize was 1,000,000 metric tonnes.

Mr Speaker, the FRA closed receiving maize on 31st October, 2012, as planned. Based on the figures that have been verified, to date, as at 19th November, 2012, the agency had purchased 1,042,813 metric tonnes of maize valued at K1,355,656,900,000. As at 23rd November, 2012, the Government had disbursed K1,321,136,649,000 to the paying banks, leaving a balance of K34,520,251,000. The disbursed amounts represent 97.5 per cent performance, leaving a balance of 2.5 per cent. In fact, I would like to inform this august House that, other than the Southern and the Eastern provinces, all the other eight provinces have been fully paid. Financial arrangements to pay the remaining 2.5 per cent are almost complete, and payments will be made to these farmers as soon as funds are available. 

Mr Mbewe: Aah!

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I must say that this position has since changed. I received confirmation from the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of the FRA that the remaining balance of K34 billion will be credited to our accounts this afternoon, meaning that, by end of this month, which is in two day’s time, we would have paid 100 per cent the amounts that are due to farmers. This is unprecedented in the history of the FRA.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Question!

Mr Chenda: Sir, at this time, allow me to express my profound gratitude to the hon. Minister of Finance for the timely response and immense support rendered to the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock in making available all the required financial resources that the FRA has disbursed to all the districts to pay our hardworking small-scale farmers who delivered maize to the agency. This level of support is unmatched. We are indeed very grateful.

The performance of the FRA in payments to farmers, as at 23rd November, 2012, by province is as shown below.

    Provinces         Purchases    Value (K’Billion)    Paid    surplus
        (Metric tonnes)    (K’Billion)

    Copperbelt    76,855    99.9    100.7        0.8

    Eastern    190,158    247.2    225.6        21.6

    Southern    188,125    244.6        227        17.5

    North-Western    74,292    96.6        96.7        0.1

    Western    21,518    28.0        28.4        0.4

    Lusaka    88,036    114.4        114.8        0.4

    Northern    109,018    141.7        142.3            0.6

    Luapula    76,985    100.1        100.8        0.7

    Central    142,940    185.8        186.3        0.4

    Muchinga        74,886    97.4    98.6        1.2

    Total    1,042,813    1,355.7    1,321.1        34.5

The total maize purchased was 1,042,813 valued at K1,355,007,000,000. The amount disbursed is K1,321.001,000, leaving a balance of K34.5 billion which, as I said, has since been sourced and will be disbursed by Friday.

Mr Speaker, the agency disbursed the K1,321,136,649,000 to various districts for payment to farmers within fifty days. Unfortunately, this has led to congestion at paying points due to the limited capacity of financial institutions in handling bulk cash transactions as most farmers are being paid over the counter. Consequently, this congestion has greatly contributed to the delays in paying the farmers.

Sir, the good intentions of the Government to promptly pay all the farmers within the shortest possible time were, therefore, not realised as the existing mechanism for final payments of these funds to the farmers are inadequate. The second challenge that we encountered in paying farmers promptly is related to the processing of documents for farmers with personal bank accounts as information being provided by most farmers has, in many cases, been incorrect, resulting in funds been retained. This also further delayed the completion of payments.

Mr Speaker, there were also cases of delays associated with complex and bureaucratic decision-making processes in some of the financial institutions from which the agency borrowed the bridging finance, especially those requiring approval from their offshore headquarters.

Sir, in order to address these challenges, the Government has already started effecting measures intended to improve payments of farmers by the FRA during the 2013/2014 Crop Marketing Season.

Mr Speaker, the FRA is in the process of implementing a computerised payment system, which will facilitate quicker and more accurate capturing and processing of payment documentation. In addition, as soon as the payments to the farmers for the 2011/2012 crop purchasing programme are completed, the FRA will engage the financial institutions involved in the payment process to look into the possibility of introducing cards for personal bank accounts holders. This will eliminate or minimise cases of incorrect details on documentation. Furthermore, as a way of addressing the challenge related to delays caused by payments over the counter for farmers who have no bank accounts, the FRA will work with the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock extension staff and the financial institutions to embark on a campaign to sensitise and encourage farmers to open personal bank accounts. This will greatly assist in de-congesting paying points and expedite payments to the framers.

Sir, I would also like to take this opportunity to appeal to those financial institutions whose headquarters are domiciled abroad to find ways of reducing the red tape in approving loans. We would be happy to foster a partnership in developing the agricultural sector based on confidence and mutual trust.

Mr Speaker, I am confident that all financial institutions operating in the country will adapt to the local environment and be part of a successful agricultural growth in the country. In this regard, the agency is advised to only deal with banks which have less bureaucratic loan-approval procedures from 2013 onwards than the agency has experienced in some cases this year.

Sir, in addition to the measures stated above, the ministry will soon be appointing a licensing authority under the provisions of the Agriculture Credit Act 2010. Effectively, this move will kick-start the operations of the warehouse receipt system, which will enable farmers to deposit their commodities with operators of licensed warehouses. In return, farmers will use the issued warehouse receipt as collateral to borrow from financial institutions. This will, no doubt, go a long way in improving farmers’ access to agriculture financing and make crop marketing better managed than it is currently.

Sir, other advantages of the warehouse receipt system include:

(a)    facilitation of trading by making it possible for buyers to order without physical sampling of the commodities. That is to say, allow sight-unseen trade;

(b)    enabling the development of a thriving commodity exchange, with much greater direct involvement of small holders in Zambia; and

(c)    contributing to the development of financing and risk management instruments that can improve commodity marketing and help consolidate the financial sector.

Mr Speaker, in concluding, allow me to state that the Government is sympathetic to the numerous challenges that the farmers have faced as a result of the delayed payments. We undertake to perform better than this year during the coming crop purchasing season.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that statement, although issued belatedly. The hon. Minister, not long ago, on the Floor of this House and at other fora, indicated that, as far as he knew, the Government had acquitted itself because all the money that was due to the farmers had been deposited into financial institutions. Today, we have heard that, in the Eastern and Southern provinces, there is still K34 billion that is yet to be paid for the Government to finally acquit itself of its obligation. In his view, does that not sound like a contradiction?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the maize marketing season only closed twenty-seven days ago. At the time we issued those statements, we had put money in the banks equivalent to the deliveries that had been made before the closure of the marketing season. However, there were some deliveries that were made just before the closure of the season and, obviously, this led to the other increases that we have experienced.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, what specific plans are there to smoothen the process of purchasing maize and other crops in the 2012/2013 marketing season?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I said that one of the biggest challenges we had in this process was the documentation process. We have embarked on a programme to computerise the process of capturing data on the farmers. Obviously, this will go a long way in trying to smoothen the process of payment to the farmers. Alongside this, we also intend, as much as possible, to begin the purchasing season soon after the moisture content has reached acceptable levels. These measures, alongside the operationalisation of the Agriculture Credit Act, will help to smoothen the marketing process.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just stated that K1 trillion was disbursed to banks, representing 97 per cent.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chisanga: Therefore, who is misleading the farmers between the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) and the banks because farmers in Mkushi are sleeping in the cold outside the banks?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the truth is that money has been released to the banks. However, granted that there is congestion at the banks, we have done everything possible to try and resolve this issue. The banks have been co-operative and have extended their operating hours. In fact, some banks have actually been operating on Saturdays and Sundays. So, everything possible is being done to try and pay the farmers on time. However, the congestion at the banks is due to the fact that this money was released in a short period.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, on one hand, the hon. Minister is saying that the Government released money to the FRA and, on the other hand, he is saying the banks, which are based abroad, are taking time to approve the loans. Now, if that is the case, why is it that farmers on the Copperbelt are still not paid because there is no money at the bank?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the correct position is that money that was due to the Copperbelt Province was released. In fact, from the statement that I have just issued, you will note that the amount that was due for the crop that we purchased there was K99.9 billion, but we released K100.7 billion as of last week. So, facts are that the money is in the bank waiting to be collected by the farmers. At the moment, there is continuous flow of payments to the farmers. I know for certain that this is happening on the Copperbelt because I was there last week and I toured the banks. As for the other issue of the foreign banks that have been assisting us, it is true that there were delays in them raising the money which we had applied for. However, I am glad to say that most of this money has since been released and that is why we are able to discharge our obligation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, let me just guide the House. Let us avoid repeating questions. Follow through the responses. I think it is tiresome and inefficient to repeat the same answers to the same questions.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I really appreciate the statement from the hon. Minister. However, the latest report from Serenje is that people are on queues, but they are not getting the payments because there is no money in the banks. To me, this shows that there has been no money sent to Serenje for the payment of farmers. What information does the hon. Minister have for him to assure us that the money is in the bank in Serenje and not in Lusaka?

Interruptions

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I have stated that the money has been deposited into the banks. The hon. Member has just confirmed that farmers are queuing up to receive their money. I do not know of anybody who is on the queue who has been told that there is no money to be paid. Every farmer is waiting for his/her turn to be paid and this is happening.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, in the past, the hon. Minister’s argument has been that the gross domestic product (GDP), which does not benefit the grassroots, is hopeless. Therefore, the payment of K1.3 trillion, which has created no impact at the grassroots, is wasted effort. The farmers in Milenge and Mpongwe have not been paid. What is the hon. Minister’s comment on the story of a woman from Serenje who died in Kabwe during a stampede at Finance Bank? Would the hon. Minister describe this as the best of the Patriotic Front (PF) rule or the best is yet to come?

Laughter

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, if such an incident happened, it is certainly most regrettable and unfortunate. However, what else can I say apart from the assurance I have given everybody here on the Floor of this august House that the Government has done its part by disbursing money to be paid to farmers? It has raised the money and deposited this money into the banks and farmers are actually being paid. What else are we expected to do? In fact, it is unprecedented, in the history of the FRA, that all the money that is due to the farmers has been paid within thirty days of the closure of the marketing season. It has never happened before.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: So, let us not be economical with facts. This is unprecedented and we deserve a pat on the back.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Is that a pat coming?

Laughter

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Sir, among the problems that the hon. Minister mentioned are improper documentation and lack of capacity by financial institutions. However, we know that there is another problem which the hon. Minister is not talking about and this is under-budgeting. We know that the FRA was asked earlier to borrow money in order to meet its obligations. So, what measures have been put in place to make sure that we budget properly for purchasing of our crops?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the budget for the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock will be coming on the Floor of this House tomorrow. Perhaps, we will discuss that issue as we consider the budget for the ministry.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister be brave enough and say sorry to the Zambian farmers …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mbewe: … for the chaotic manner in which the marketing was done? 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, I am certainly sympathetic to the problems that the farmers have been going through. Like I have said before, within thirty days of the closure of the marketing season, money has been made available to the farmers. This has never happened before. So, if that is not a good record, I do not know what would be a good record. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister is aware that there are farmers in Dundumwezi who have not been paid for the maize from the 2010/2011 Marketing Season. One of the reasons is the investigations that are going on. When will the Government expedite the investigations so that even those who are still waiting for the 2010/2011 Marketing Season are also quickly paid?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the situations in Dundumwezi and Kalomo are very interesting. By the closure of the season, we received a complaint that K10 billion worth of maize purchases had not been paid to the farmers. Arising from that, we constituted a team of the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and auditors from the ministry to go to Kalomo so as to verify the information because what we had on record was not tallying with the information that was coming from Kalomo. What this system entailed was that each farmer had been subjected to a personal interview with the special task force that we had put in place. Out of the K10 billion that was sent to Kalomo, only K3 billion was paid or only farmers who supplied maize amounting to an equivalent of the K3 billion appeared for the interviews. The rest did not come. The money was returned to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). This clearly shows that there are serious problems in Kalomo. So, if there are farmers who have still not been paid in Kalomo, let them come and present their documentation. Our doors are wide open. We will verify the information and subject them to the same scrutiny that other farmers went through before the ACC, DEC, Zambia Police and the auditors from the ministry. If it will be proved that the money is due to them, we will pay them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zimba (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just said that the payment of farmers has been excellent. This has never happened before, but I would say it happened a long time ago. We were paid well. The late payment of farmers has caused havoc because they cannot plan properly. Has the Government got any plans to pay farmers interest in case of delay?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, the Government has no intention whatsoever to pay the farmers interest on the amounts that have been outstanding.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, having taken into consideration that by Friday, the Government would release K34.5 billion to the already congested banks, is the hon. Minister not considering putting in place the mobile banking system, especially in Chadiza in the Eastern Province and in the Southern province?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, indeed, some of the participating banks are offering mobile banking facilities. We have also requested other players in the financial sector to help us deal with this issue. That is how come the Zambia Postal Services Corporation (ZAMPOST) and Investrust Bank Limited have come on board now in Kalomo. They have started providing a service to help pay the farmers. The bank is using the mobile banking system. So, the Government is seriously concerned about the suffering of the farmers. We want to put this issue behind us. I am confident that all these measures that we have put in place will solve this problem. In addition, we have sent officers from the FRA Head Office to the provinces to give support services so that the whole process can be quickened and the farmers are paid.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister on the well-executed programme. I can confirm that the people of Kaputa are very happy because they have been paid.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated to the House that by the end of October, 2012, the Government had purchased about 1.4 million metric tonnes of maize. Our national consumption is around 1.2 million metric tonnes. What can the Government do to try and take advantage of this available grain in the country in order to make some good money for our people from the surrounding countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo where they are already starving?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, after verifying the stocks of maize, we will obviously be selling this maize on the open market and this will include exports, but this will only be done after we have considered our food security position. So, indeed, we will sell at a competitive price so that we are able to get a return from the maize that we have purchased.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the ministerial statement. Related very closely to the maize marketing is input distribution. May he indicate briefly the status of the input distribution for the farmers?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, we have explained some challenges in the distribution of inputs. However, I must say that 80 per cent of the process of completing the exercise has been done. We will be stepping up our efforts to ensure that farmers are not subjected to further suffering in acquiring these inputs.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that he is going to operationalise the Agriculture Credit Act of 2010. Can he, please, clarify how this will be possible when Mumbwa Constituency is in the rural area and it is not aware of the significant warehouses to operate from?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, once the Agriculture Credit Act comes into operation and we appoint the licensing authority, obviously, there will be interest shown by the private sector to construct warehouses to be used for the purpose of receiving the commodities under this Act. So, it is a business opportunity that will be availed by operationalising this Act.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister spoke about the Warehouse Receipt System as a way of improving the marketing arrangements for farmers to present to financial institutions. Will the Warehouse Receipt System be transferable, negotiable or non-negotiable?

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, it will certainly be negotiable, but the beauty about it is that farmers will have an opportunity to use these receipts to borrow money as collateral so that if there is any delay in disposing off their commodity, at least, they will be able to access finance from a financial institution.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that it is not only Southern and Eastern provinces where farmers have not been paid as we speak, but the Western Province too? 

Mr Chenda: Mr Speaker, Southern and Eastern provinces are major producers of maize. Understandably so, that is why there has been some delays in clearing the amounts due. As a matter of fact, the Western Province was one of the first provinces where we cleared the total amount that was due to be paid to the farmers. Therefore, the farmers that have not yet been paid should go to their respective pay points and collect their money because it is in their banks.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

FISH FARMING 

277. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock how many of the following activities were undertaken in 2011 countrywide:

(a)    procurement of research vessels;

(b)    construction and rehabilitation of fish breeding centres; and

(c)    rehabilitation of fish training centres.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr N. Banda): Mr Speaker, in 2011 two research vessels were procured from a South African company at a cost of K4.5 billion. One of the vessels has been launched on Lake Kariba and is based in Sinazongwe whilst the other vessel is yet to be launched on Lake Bangweulu and will be based in Samfya.

Sir, in the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP), the Government is committed to the construction of eight new fish seed production centres and upgrading the nineteen existing Government fish farms to farm seed production centres. Funds have been released for the construction of three fish seed production centres in Katete, Petauke and Kasempa. Works are also in progress to upgrade existing fish farms into fish seed production centres.

Mr Speaker, in the 2011 ministerial Budget, four fisheries training centres were funded for rehabilitation and their status is as follows:

Station    Funds Released (ZMK)    Status

Mpulungu    150,000,000    completed

Nchelenge    150,000,000    works not completed

Sinazongwe    1,300,000,000    Process of rehabilitation started

Mwekera    750,000,000    Process of rehabilitation started

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, although Chilubi …

Ms Siliya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, we have been told many times that there is more quality on the left side of this House than on the right side.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: However, is the PF Government in order to continue ignoring my brother from Chilubi Island, Hon. Chisala, who is doing a very good job asking questions every day? 

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

I will reserve my ruling.

Laughter

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, although Chilubi is part of the Bangweulu Region, it is specifically situated in the Northern Province of Zambia. The Bangweulu Region has eight Parliamentary constituencies. That being the case, may I know as to when Chilubi as a district is going to have its own fish breeding centre?

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Mwewa): Mr Speaker, I thank you.  Hon. Chisala, we salute you and Jehovah God will definitely reward you.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Jehovah?

Mr Speaker: Order!

That is a blessing.

Mr Mwewa: To come to your question, it is the wish and desire of the PF Government to ensure that it restocks fish everywhere. We want to encourage fish farming. We are trying to create breeding centres in each and every district and we will start the construction of breeding centres next year in each and every district. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Minister who has already been rewarded on earth, …

Laughter

Mr Simfukwe: … it appears that most of the support the Government is giving is to the Government departments and yet most of the fish that is coming from fish farms is being produced privately. What support has the Government prepared for commercial fish farming, particularly in Lusaka where most the demand for fish is?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, we appreciate the commercial fish farmers and realise that there has been oversight. This Government is trying to work hand in hand with the private fish farmers who are growing fish in different farms so that we can work together with them to boost the market for fish. The 2013 Budget has got a new entry towards the support of fish farming and marketing in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge): Mr Speaker, what is the Government’s position on Cage Fish Farming in our lakes and rivers?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, for the pen and cage farming in our Zambian lakes, the Government’s position is that next year, we are going to start a pilot project starting with Itezhi-tezhi, Lake Bangweulu and Lake Mweru. We will test how our indigenous fish can be grown through Cage Fishing. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, may I get it clearly from the hon. Minister arising from his earlier answer that every district shall have a breeding centre whether Mitete which is now a district, with a very bad road leading to Lukulu and Mitete, will also benefit? 

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier, it is our desire and wish that every district should have a building centre. Therefore, if the logistics and everything else allows, we will definitely reach the hon. Member of Parliament’s district.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, fish stocks in our lakes and rivers have dwindled and fisher men are struggling to catch the few fish left. The dwindling fish stocks are due to some bad fishing methods such as the use of mosquito nets which have been used in the past few years. Is the Government preparing any policy over the use of these damaging and dangerous fishing methods so that we can re-stock our fish in the lakes and rivers of Zambia.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Speaker, hon. Member of Parliament, we realise that it is not possible or easy to stop those fishing methods when we have very limited resources. We have realised that we need to boost the patrols and campaigns in fishing areas and talk to our people in our communities to sensitise them on the dangers of using such kinds of wrong fishing methods. We will start that project. I can say that I am sorry that we are starting this project late. I think that in the first or second week of December, we will start the awareness campaign and boost the patrols in fishing areas so that we can prevent the farmers from using the wrong methods of fishing and catching fish during the fish ban.

I thank you, Sir.

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 76/01 (Ministry of Youth and Sport – Headquarters – K9,801,218,657).

(Consideration resumed)
The Chairperson: Order!

When business was interrupted yesterday, Tuesday 27th November, 2012, the Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue of and Expenditure for the year 1st January 2013 to 31st December, 2013 presented to the National Assembly in October, 2012 had just concluded considering Head 76 Ministry of Youth and Sport General Policy Debate and the hon. Minister of youth and sport …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

… had just finished winding up the debate. We now move to Individual Items. Before we do that, I have an announcement to make.

__________

ANNOUNCEMENT

DRESS CODE FOR MALE HON.MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

The Chairperson: Hon. Members of Parliament, of late, it has been observed with deep concern, that some male hon. Members of Parliament are reporting to the House dressed in a manner contrary to the dress code prescribed for male hon. Members of Parliament,

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Under order 207, one of the National Assembly Standing Orders 2005, which states ‘the official dress for male Members of Parliament shall be a long suit, a pair of long trousers, a tie and a jacket, tall gown or safari suit, no kaki except uniform for members of the defence forces with long or short sleeves and a scarf or tie.’ I need not emphasise that dressing in a manner different from the dress code prescribed under the above provision lowers the dignity of the House. In view of this, I wish to remind all hon. Members to dress in the appropriate formal manner so as to maintain the dignity and decorum of the House on dress according to the standards set by the House.

I thank you.

__________

The Chairperson: Order!

It is our responsibility to keep guiding you, hon. Members. For example, we have repeatedly said that the right way to address the Chairperson is ‘Mr Speaker’ or ‘Sir’. However, up to this point, you have done very well except for three hon. Members who keep on saying ‘Mr Speaker, Sir’.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

 Please, I think that it is time we got used to this kind of speech.

I thank you.

Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76/03 – (Ministry of Youth and Sport – Sports Department – K28,147,265,283)

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5005, Activity 118 – Sports Associations – K1,462,000,000. In this year’s provision, K462,000,000 was authorised. In the proposal for next year, we have K1,462,000,000. May I know what has necessitated the increase for this activity.

The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Mubukwanu): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5005, Activity 118 – Sports Associations – K1,462,000,000. The increment for this activity is as a result of the need to scale up activities and competitiveness of the sports associations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5011, Activity 029 – Rehabilitation of School/College infrastructure – Nil, Activity 036 – Provision of services to stadia under construction – Nil, Activity 137 – Rehabilitation and construction at NASDEC (2012 SCSA Games)  – Nil and Activity 138 – Rehabilitation and upgrading of Olympic Swimming Pool – Nil. I have noticed that this year, there was money allocated for these activities. However, nothing has been allocated in the Budget for next year. I am so concerned about this, especially that the President just announced that there should be a stadium built in Western province, where is the money going to come from.

Mr Mubukwanu: Mr Chairperson, the activities that are causing concern to the hon. Member, as far as we are concerned, are budgeted for under the year 2012, Supreme Council for Sports in Africa Zone Six. They will not be required anymore in 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Members, we cannot work like that. I have a job to do, but you the Executive is making it difficult for us to work. We are not saying that you should not consult, but you should do it quietly. If the consultation disturbs us, we will fail to proceed.

Head total, K38,732,048,346 is agreed to.

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: You see, as a result of the disturbances, I was reading a wrong figure. I will read the right figure. This is what I meant when I said you should consult quietly.

Laughter 

Vote 76/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68 – (Ministry of Tourism and Art – K95,005,125,553)

The Minister of Tourism and Art (Mrs Masebo): Mr Chairperson, allow me to issue a policy statement in support of the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Tourism and Art.

Sir, the ministry’s total budgetary allocation for 2013 …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

I am closer to hon. Members on my right. I do not know how many times I should say this. If you were far, it would make a difference, but …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I am making an earnest appeal. We are considering the Budget and I think the hon. Members on my right should give us the opportunity to do this work quietly. It will not be good for me to ask hon. Ministers to go out of the House. I do not like that.

Please, continue, hon. Minister.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the ministry’s total allocation for 2013 is K95 billion.

As the House may be aware, tourism has been recognised as a key sector in the economic diversification agenda of the Government due to its capacity to create broad-based employment, facilitate rural development as well as boost foreign exchange earnings.

Mr Chairperson, in recognition of the importance of the sector, the Ministry of Tourism and Art was created in July, 2012, with the following portfolio functions:

(a)    Tourism Policy; 

(b)    Arts and Culture Policy;

(c)    Tourism Training and Wildlife Management; and

(d)    Tourism Training.

Sir, these functions are implemented through four departments, namely:

(a)    Human Resource and Administration;

(b)    Planning and Information;

(c)    Tourism; and

(d)    Arts and Culture.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry also has the following statutory bodies that help it in its quest to deliver on its mandate:

(a)    Zambia Tourism Board (ZTB);

(b)    Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA);

(c)    National Arts Council of Zambia (NAC); and 

(d)    the Hotel and Tourism Training Institute (HTTI).{mospagebreak}

Sir, tourism is a multi-sectoral industry that is dependent on services and goods provided by other sectors, such as roads, airports, railways, energy, immigration and border control, maintenance of law and order. In this regard, the ministry will endeavour to strengthen mechanisms for inter-ministerial co-ordination to enhance synergies and ensure that the relevant sectors deliver services that will help grow the tourism sector.

Mr Chairperson, the growth of the sector has been stifled by a number of challenges, such as: 

(a)    inadequate infrastructure, resulting in poor access to tourism sites;

(b)     inadequate policy and legal framework;

(c)     inadequate local, regional and international air linkages;

(d)     limited and uncompetitive tourism products;

(e)     high cost of rooms and consumables;

(f)     low staffing levels to effectively monitor protected areas, resulting in high poaching levels;

(g)     over-dependence on international tourists;

(h)     inadequate tourism promotion and marketing;

(i)     inadequate tourism training facilities, especially at higher level;

(j)     inadequate capacity to host major tourism events;

(k)     inadequate appropriate skilled human capital in the sector;

(l)     lack of affordable and accessible tourism financing, especially for small and medium enterprises (SMEs);

(m)     lack of investments in national parks, and national heritage infrastructure and establishments;

(n)    prohibitive and cumbersome visa regime and border processing; and 

(o)     the European Union (EU) ban on Zambian-registered aircraft.

Sir, the PF vision for the sector is to promote a vibrant tourism industry that can contribute effectively to employment creation and be a driving force in the economic development of the country. It is for this reason that the Government expects to facilitate the creation of 300,000 jobs in the tourism sector in the next five years. The ministry has, therefore, lined up programmes in its 2013 budget that will kick-start employment creation through traditional jobs in the tourism industry as well as development of the Arts and Culture segments for job creation at local levels.

Sir, the ministry will also endeavour to address the many challenges that hamper the growth of the sector through the following intervention strategies:

(a)    completing the tourism policy review process;

(b)    re-formulating the Tourism Act by 2013;

(c)    effectively marketing and focusing on the promotion of domestic tourism;

(d)     strengthening the effective contribution of the tourism value chains;

(e)    fostering the development of new tourism products to make Zambia competitive regionally and internationally in key market segments;

(f)    empowering Zambians, especially the local communities, through effective partnerships with foreign investors to enhance and maximise opportunities through financing and basic skills transfer to local communities; and

(g)    promoting the creative industries, including theatre houses, recording studios, publishing houses and art galleries, among others.

Mr Chairperson, a well-designed policy and legal framework …

I am sorry, Sir. I have missed my pages because of my sight.

Interruptions 

Ms Masebo: Mr Chairperson, additionally, my ministry will also rely on programmes by other sectors, such as the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry; the Ministry Youth and Sport; the Ministry of Gender and Child Development; and the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, to target resources towards tourism enterprises, especially for the micro, small and medium enterprises. 

Sir, a well-designed policy and legal framework is pre-requisite to the promotion of a robust tourism industry. In this regard, the ministry has prioritised the development of a conducive policy framework for the sector, beginning this year, which will be concluded in early 2013. The Tourism and Hospitality Policy, the Arts and Culture Policy and the Wildlife Policy are currently under review. I wish to appeal to as many stakeholders as possible to participate in the development of a responsive policy that will promote the growth of the tourism sector.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, my ministry will bring a Bill to the House in the next sitting of Parliament to repeal and replace the National Arts Council Act, Cap 170, of the Laws of Zambia. The Bill will establish the National Arts and Culture Commission as directed by His Excellency the President during the official opening of the 11th National Assembly. It is my appeal that hon. Members of Parliament will support the Bill as it will strengthen arts and culture development in the country.

Mr Chairperson, despite the countries unique and diverse tourism assets which are located in different parts of the country, the development of new sites have been hampered by poor access to tourism sites due to poor road infrastructure. This has resulted in limited product development, hence, the concentration of tourism activities in a few areas, such as Livingstone, South and North Luangwa, Lower Zambezi and Kafue national parks. I, therefore, welcome the planned interventions of the development of critical infrastructure, such as roads and airports, in the 2013 Budget by other sector ministries.

Mr Chairperson, tourism is a highly competitive industry. In order to maintain competitiveness, there is a need to offer quality and affordable products. In this regard, the ministry will be introducing an enhanced grading and classification system for all tourism establishments. The ministry has also already embarked on the inspection of all accommodation establishments, beginning with Livingstone, the host city of the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) General Assembly Conference. This exercise will be rolled out to other parts of the country and establishments that will not meet the minimum standards prescribed in the regulations will be closed.

Mr Chairperson, limited tourism product development has been identified as one of the many challenges facing Zambia as a tourist destination of choice. The Ministry has, therefore, allocated funding and prioritised tourism product development and promotion of arts and culture products for tourism purposes. The Arts and Culture sub-sector presents us with an opportunity for endless creativity to design and deliver to the majority of Zambians creative products, such as textile fabrics, paintings, handcrafts, and music and performing arts that can help to relieve poverty and unemployment. 

Sir, in addition, the sector will explore wide opportunities that exist for product development. The country’s historical symbolism as a home for the liberation struggle for political independence of the entire Southern African Sub-Region presents us with opportunities for product development. The homes of the stewards of the liberation struggle are a case in point. These need to be developed, packaged and delivered to both the local and international tourists as a unique product that resonates with Zambia and its neighbouring states. 

Mr Chairperson, one of the challenges of the tourism sector is inadequate marketing of the county as a tourism destination of choice. The ministry has, therefore, allocated K4.7 billion in its 2013 budget as a grant to the Zambia Tourism Board (ZTB) to meet its operational costs. An additional sum of K9.8 billion has been allocated for generic marketing of the destination. In addition to promoting Zambia as a tourist destination of choice, my ministry will step up its efforts in promoting investment in the sector in order to open up other areas with tourism potential. The ministry will also continue to work closely with the relevant arms of the Government, such as Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), in investment promotion in the tourism sector. 

Mr Chairperson, in a bid to promote domestic tourism and lessen the over-dependence on international tourists, the ministry will vigorously create awareness in both English and local languages, through different media platforms, on Zambia’s tourism products. The ultimate aim of such awareness programmes is to drive our people to desire and develop a preference for our local tourism products or brands that are representative of our identity and inspired by our country’s rich culture.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, the hospitality industry will be encouraged to come up with affordable tourism packages for our local tourists. Further, our people will be encouraged and supported to actively venture into tourism-related enterprises, such as lodges, camps, food industries, community conservancies, game ranches, travel agencies and book writing.

Mr Chairperson, the provision of tourism training is a function of my ministry that it performs through the Hotels and Tourism Training Institute (HTTI). Unfortunately, the quality of the training offered does not meet the needs of the hospitality and tourism industry, making Zambia uncompetitive in comparison with its competitors. The main challenges facing tourism training relate to inadequate funding, outdated curriculum, dilapidated infrastructure and obsolete training equipment, inadequately-qualified lecturers and an unsustainable debt burden of over K3.7 billion in statutory and contractual obligations that have been accrued of the years.

Sir, it is, however, gratifying that K6.7 billion has been allocated in the 2013 Budget to address some of these challenges. The HHTI will use the funds to attract qualified staff, review the curriculum and rehabilitate its infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, in line with international best practices, the ministry will be introducing a tourism levy in 2013. This will be after it conducts broad consultations with key stakeholders in the tourism sector. The objective of the levy will be to generate resources for tourism marketing and training, which will, ultimately, benefit the tourism industry through increased tourist in-flows and provision of competitive quality service in the hospitality industry. The levy will be administered by the private sector in collaboration with the public sector. This will enhance accountability and efficiency in the collection and usage of the funds for the intended purposes, which will be training and marketing.

Mr Chairperson, 80 per cent of tourism in Zambia is based on nature, such as wildlife, landscapes, waterfalls and heritage sites. Wildlife, however, still remains the country’s main tourism product despite the Government’s effort to diversify the product base. The wildlife sub-sector, despite its enormous potential to contribute to economic diversification, has been hampered by a number of challenges, such as high poaching levels in protected areas due to low staffing levels in ZAWA to cover the vast wildlife estates. Others factors are illegal settlements in protected areas, poor access to and within protected areas and inadequate transport, such are vehicles aircrafts and boats that could be used to facilitate the effective monitoring and management of the protected areas.

Mr Chairperson, to address some of the challenges in the wildlife sub-sector, particularly the low staffing levels, the ministry plans to recruit a total of 800 wildlife police officers by 2015 to enhance policing of the wildlife estates. However, a meagre grant of K4.7 billion has been allocated to the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) to contribute towards the challenges that I have outlined. Clearly, the cost of recruiting wildlife police officers will have to be met through future budget allocations. 

Mr Chairperson, it is pleasing that the 2013 Budget has provided tax incentives and rebates towards procurement of fencing materials for game ranching, aircrafts, boats, musical instruments and other equipment for the tourism and arts industry to enable operators to procure the necessary equipment as the country prepares to host the United National World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO). I wish to appeal to operators to take advantage of the tax relief which has been running from October, 2012 to 31st December, 2013. I further wish to remind the public that these incentives will apply to operators that are licensed to operate a tourism enterprise. I, therefore, appeal to the women and youths out there to consider venturing into tourism businesses. 

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude my remarks, I wish to state that preparations to host the 20th Session of the UNWTO General Assembly are progressing well. Zambians are urged to take advantage of this rare opportunity to showcase Zambia’s tourism and to grow the sector for employment creation, rural development and increased foreign exchange earnings which will ultimately translate into poverty reduction.

Mr Chairperson, I want to urge hon. Members of Parliament to really think through this sector and see how best they can help their communities to venture into tourism. I want to say that apart from agriculture, tourism is the way to go if we are to create employment. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr M. B. Mwale (Malambo): Mr Chairperson, in contributing to the Ministry of Tourism and Art’sVote, may I begin by congratulating the hon. Minister on her appointment to that ministry as she is showing a lot of passion for tourism. 

Sir, Zambia, as the hon. Minister has already said, is endowed with tourist attractions such as waterfalls and wildlife in our national parks. Statistically, 30 per cent or one third of Zambia’s landmass is reserved for conservation.

Mr Chairperson, the question that begs an answer is, are we utilising the 30 per cent landmass for the maximum socio-economic benefit of our people? Obviously, not.As the hon. Minister has already mentioned, we need to develop infrastructure such as all-weather roadsin these areas to improve accessibility to these tourist destinations. One way is to empower all ZAWA regions of the South Luangwa Area Management Unit (SLAMU) Model. As you may know,SLAMU has got its own road development equipment where these regions will become road development agencies. They would have their own equipment to do park roads because contractors are expensive.

Sir, the other issue in terms of infrastructure, as the hon. Minister has mentioned, is the development of airports and airstrips in Mfuwe,for example. I am not talking about where Hon. Malama comes from. In Malambo, we have the Mfuwe International Airport which accords those with their own aircrafts to fly directly to Mfuwe or any destination of their choice. These tourists will be accorded an opportunity to fly directly to their destinations. Thirdly, the hon. Minister talked about lodges. We need to come up with competitive rates regionally. If the rates were competitive, they would promote local tourism. 

Sir, in 2011, there were 78,866 tourist arrivals of which 33,712 were in the South Luangwa National Park and 29,526 were in Mosi-o-Tunya. Clearly, the statistics indicate that wildlife is the main tourism product in our country. Again, I agree with the hon. Minister. Even the World Bank Study of 2004 clearly stated that over 80 per cent of our visitors came to the national parks. Therefore, it hasproved tobe our main tourism product. 

Mr Chairperson, there are twenty national parks in our country, but only four are income generating through hunting and photographic safaris. The four are South Luangwa National Park, Malambo National Park, Mosi-o-Tunya National Park, Lower Zambezi National Park and Kafue National Park. Clearly, we need to revitalise the other sixteen through infrastructure development. 

Sir, as the hon. Minister performs her responsibilities, she should take time to understand the cultural settings of game management areas (GMAs). Why do I say so? In Malambo, as I was growing up, every time I saw an Impala, I saw it forthe pot. When we had a desire to eatoffal, my grandfather would just go behind the village to hunt. At the moment, we are told that instead of seeing any Impala for the pot, we should be seeing US Dollars. There has to be a cultural shift. Hon. Minister, you need to see the difference because for us in Malambo, from generation to generation, we lived through hunting and fishing. Farming was basically on a subsistence level.Someone from Chasefu can attest to that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, in fact, in Malambo, our primary crop was sorghum because we realised that it was drought resistant. With dynamism of life, we are being sensitised to see US Dollars whenever we see an Impala. We are aware that there can be no tourism in the valley without wildlife. As we promote tourism, there should be a deliberate policy to provide alternative sources of protein for the people. I am repeating this point because when we were debating the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development, the hon. Minister was not around. With the control of tsetse fly infestation in the valleys like Malambo, livestock has been introduced particularly by persons who are relocating from the plateau in search of fertile land. 

Sir, with this positive development, there are cross cutting issues between ministries. The first one is that we need dams because our livestock need a lot of water to drink. Hon. Minister, together with your counterparts,there is a need to construct dams in the valley so that our livestock can have water. Secondly, there is a need forthe Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock to stock these dams with fish so that our people can be accorded an opportunity to catch fish from thedams. I know,zayellow, you do not have these.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Mr Chairperson: Order!

I am not sure who zayellow is.

Laughter

Mr Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, za yellow is sitting here …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: … listening very attentively and struggling to make sense of what Hon. Apple Max Mwale is trying to say. He is confusing himself because he is talking about livestock, fish and soon he will start talking about pigs and dogs, and yet he is supposed to be debating on tourism and referring to wildlife. I am sure that very soon he will also start talking about mice. Is he in order to bring me into his debate instead of him concentrating on debating tourism? 

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: My serious ruling is that, in this House, we do not have any person by the name of zayelo …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … and apple max. Therefore, Hon. Lubinda has debated his point of order adequately.

The hon. Member can continue.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I was referring to crosscutting issues between ministries. In the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, there are programmes that are being undertaken by other institutions such as Heifer. This is a programme of passing on a gift. For Malambo, we would be more than pleased if we had goats being taken to Malambo and passed on as a gift so that we minimise on the issue that is of concern to the hon. Minister which I will not call poaching, but illegal hunting.

Sir, let me talk about the Budget. One observation which is of concern is the grants that have been allocated to institutions. Let me say that the amount that has been allocated to ZAWA is little, since it superintendents over our wildlife resources. Out of the K95,005,125,553 budget for the ministry, ZAWA has been allocated K4,700,000,000 which is very little because it has to pplice our national parks. For instance, where Hon. Nkandu Luo comes from, they like to eat game meat.

Laughter

Professor Luo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Professor Luo: Mr Chairperson, as you know, I am a very decent young lady …

Laughter

Professor Luo: … who is extremely, especially polite to the hon. Opposition Members who lost elections miserably and would like to draw me into their debates as they struggle to make the hon. Government Members appreciate the fact that they have some intellectual ability. Is Hon. Mwale in order to bring this decent and polite woman into his discussion? 

I seek your ruling, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Mwale is not in order to bring the young lady …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … into his discussion.

The hon. Member can continue.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, that is how we express our love from Chief Mwanya.

Laughter

Mr M.B. Mwale: Sir, the meagre allocation to ZAWA is making its work very difficult. Much as it may be an income generating authority, it still needs a lot of support from the Government. We should not forget that, of the twenty national parks, only four are income generating. This pauses quite a challenge for ZAWA.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, the other issue of concern to the people of Malambo is the increasing human/animal conflict. Problem animals, particularly the elephants and bush pigs have caused damage to the crops. We are mindful that monetary compensation by ZAWA is not feasible, as it would have a run on its accounts. ZAWA would be overwhelmed by claims which would cause a run on its accounts.

Sir, we would encourage that through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit, the Vice-President’s Office should make adequate provisions through the District Commissioner (DC’s) Office to provide relief food for families that are affected by the problem animals.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, in support of the Vote for the Ministry of Tourism and Art, I wish to recognise the fact that the ministry is fortunate to have an increase from K63,806,854,357 last year to K95,005,125,553 this year. However, I realise that most of the money will go towards the upcoming conference that will be held in Livingstone.

Mr Chairperson, let me state that although tourism involves a number of things which include hotels, lodges and tours, one is more important are the national parks which are of concern. The roads in the national parks are in a bad state and we needed to have given ZAWA much more money to improve the roads.

Mr Chairperson, let me urge the hon. Minister to look at the possibility of changing our attitude in Zambia. Other countries have tarred roads within the game parks, while we are still stuck with the old agreement of not tarring roads in the national parks. For instance, there is a road from Kalomo via the national park to Itezhi-tezhi which, if opened and tarred, would be the shortest route from Kalomo to the Central Province. Therefore, there is a need to tar that road. Every time we talk about this project, only a bit of grading is done to that road and it is not helpful. If you went to South Africa and saw the Kruger National Park, you would see that there are tarred roads and big hotels have been constructed in those places. These places are actually very nice and comfortable. Much as you want to make Zambia as wild as it was, I think, it is time we made it comfortable, because calling Zambia the real Africa is not helping us. We have remained in a backward state and people go to countries that are not called the real Africa, for instance, South Africa and invest there. We need to work on the roads in the national parks.

Mr Chairperson, let me urge the hon. Minister to ensure that we have proper ratings of our hotels and lodges. Sometimes, the ratings that we have here are not in line with the ratings that we see outside Zambia. What you may rate as a five star hotel in Zambia may not be rated the same outside Zambia. We need to emulate our friends and upgrade the standards. If we do that, more money will be coming through. Most hotels within and outside Zambia are run by the same management. However, when you compare the Sun Hotel in Zambia, for instance, to the Sun Hotel in South Africa, there is a very big difference. The Pamodzi Hotel here in Lusaka is run by the same Indian company which runs another hotel in Cape Town, South Africa and yet the two are totally different. Hon. Minister, we need to jack up in that department. 

Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Minister will recall, I raised an issue in this House on a point of order concerning the dissolution of the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) Board. I urged her to have it reconstituted. The Zambia Wildlife Act No. 12 of 1998 states that the day to day management of ZAWA should be by the board. Hon. Minister, you may be working very hard but if you do not act in things such as these, you will get hurt. I am very blunt; this will hurt you my dear.  

Mr Chairperson, from 18th April, 2012, when the ZAWA board was ratified by Cabinet, the sequence of events has been as follows: On 20th May, 2012, there were advertisements for renewal of safari hunting concessions for the next ten years and the date for closure was 13rd August, 2012.

Mrs Masebo: Debate the budget.

Mr Muntanga:  I wish to state to the ZAWA management that there is no one above any arrangement and for any organisation to succeed, it is essential to understand this. The budget is already known. However, if we just approve the budget and leave things to go to waste then we are not doing anything. 

Mr Chairperson, I can see that the hon. Minister is concerned about ZAWA so I am going for it.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Yes, it appears that she is concerned. 
Sir, from 13th August, 2012, there were advertisements for applications for resident hunting for Zambians which intended to run up to 22nd September, 2012.  The board was dissolved on 20th August, 2012, and on 22nd August, 2012, the advertisements for resident hunting were cancelled. 

Mrs Masebo: And?

Mr Muntanga: This is not a joke. I am going to raise this matter in the High Court as abuse of authority. I am not joking. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, since the cancellation, there have been a number of advertisements of tenders. On 3rd November, 2012, successful hunting licences were given. On 14th November, 2012, the sale of these licences was cancelled. Hunting should have commenced on 1st September, 2012, but did not because of this type of administration. The running of a country is not a personal affair. Nobody should feel that because he or she is in in-charge then people should not raise issues. This is Government business, not personal business. I am a Zambian with a stake in this arrangement. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Whatever you have been given is only temporary. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

Address the Chair. 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, it is because of the comments coming from the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art. She dissolved the ZAWA Board and has failed to reconstitute it. She is running ZAWA like a personal business. 

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Muntanga: We are asking her to put the board back in place.  

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: If the comments continue …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, you will say something when winding up debate. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Muntanga, you may proceed. 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, for the past twenty years, ZAWA has advertised the application of resident hunting licences and the exercise has always ended by 31st August.

The Chairperson: Order!

As the time is now 1615 hours, I suspend business for 15 minutes.

Mr Muntanga: Very good!

Laughter

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the 
Chair]

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended I was saying that resident hunting licences have not been given because there has been no approval. What this means for Zambians is that there will be no formal hunting. This will therefore exacerbate poaching. If you stop Zambians from formal hunting, they will have no option but to poach. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to propose that we create butcheries which can sell game meat. We do not always have to buy from poachers.  

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!       

Mr Muntanga: Let us emulate Botswana. Botswana has game meat in butcheries. In Zambia this is not allowed. We cannot expect Zambians to just be looking at the animals. They will want to eat but when they the kill animals, they will be accused of poaching.  

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I wanted to raise is the unfairness of quotas. Safari hunters are given hunting concessions on elephants, buffaloes, crocodiles, eland, hippopotamus, kudu, leopard, lion, roan, sable, statunga, black lechwe, waterbuck, zebra and wildebeest. Resident hunters are given buffalo, baboon, bush pig, common duiker, bushbuck, impala, warthog and puku concessions. This is all they are given. For obvious reasons, resident hunters will not raise as much money. Expensive animals are for foreigners and yet we come to this House and claim that the locals are not bringing in money. How can they bring in money when you are giving them baboons to kill? 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: You are giving them monkeys to hunt. It may be a delicacy in some areas, but it is not for everyone. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, this is the only ministry where support to the hon. Minister’s office has been allocated K1 billion. 

Mr Mbulakulima:  What?

Mr Muntanga: Yes, other budget lines have an average of K250 million, but this hon. Minister’s support is K1 billion. 

Mr Mbulakulima interjected.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Mbulakulima, please.  

Mr Muntanga: There is no authority for a Minister to run ZAWA. It is only the board, according to the Act that does the day to day running of ZAWA. All the various cancellations by other people apart from the ZAWA Board are unfounded. I will take the matter to the High Court to find out if this does not constitute abuse of authority. I know that there are hon. Ministers who appeared in court for such things. Why will they not appear in court now? It was these friends on this side of the House who raised an issue and we are now raising it your Government. Why should you think you are free to do things the wrong way?

The Chairperson: Address the Chair!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … why should they think they can do things the wrong way? 

The Speaker ruled in this House and said that he hoped that the correct thing will be done. The law would be followed and ZAWA Board would be put in place. Why are you delaying? Why do you want to manage ZAWA? Why do you not want to put things in the correct position?

Sir, the tourism industry needs participation of everybody and my advice to my colleagues is that it is better to listen to your friends. When you are given an opportunity to lead, it does not mean that you are not clever than others. Do things with your friends. Immediately you ignore others and belittle them and think that you know everything, you are caught in trouble. Therefore, Mr Chairperson, I am saying that we need the same transparency being called for by our friends who are in Government and we will double that requirement. We will ensure that whatever is done is transparent.

After I have debated, I am going to put a notice to the High Court to find out whether this is not contravention, so that we test the law. There are a number of issues that have been brought here illegally, and we are not ending them here but we will go to the High Court.

Mr Monde: Yes, sure!

Mr Muntanga: If you push us, we will go and put a stay so that some of the things are not approved. You need to work together. If we work together why do you argue? Why do you want to play around and why do you not want to compromise? Why do you not want to do things that we are asking for?

Hon. Member: Alanda bwino!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I do not want to be hunter or be on the ZAWA Board. I have no relative who goes there. All I know is that in the olden days, people used to live in harmony with animals.

Sir, I happy to hear that fences will be constructed around these game parks and I hope these fences will be properly constructed, so that those who stay in the game parks can stay well with those animals. Please, I am also urging you to give hunting licences to residents so that we stop poaching. Let us not confront the Zambian people in preference to foreigners.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you, in contributing to the Ministry of Tourism and Art budget line, I am happy to note that the hon. Minister emphasised that 80 per cent of our tourism is based on wildlife.

Sir, that being the case, as a Member of Parliament for Mumbwa, which houses 90 per cent of the Kafue National Park and if my memory serves me right, Kafue National Park being the second largest national park in Africa, has a variety of fauna and flora that is not found in many parts of Africa. However, the infrastructure there is nothing really to talk about. And so, I am hope that part of the 8,000 Link-Zambia will link Kafue National Park through Dundumwezi, Kalomo onto the Great North Road.

Sir, when tourists come, they go to Mosi-o-Tunya, which is only part of the tourism package, but if only we could actually package these tourism outings, they would go away with valid memories of our rich heritage. I hope the hon. Minister will mention about this commitment because we have been talking about it and Hon. Muntanga did mention how important that would be.

The second issue, Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about has to deal with the issue of illegal settlements, encroachment into Game Management Areas (GMAs). This is terrible and actually it is a time bomb. I have seen my relatives coming in ox-charts or on foot to these GMAs after having finished and decimated Bilili, which used to be Game Management Area. I heard that the hon. Minister actually passed through and was briefed about the decimation of the GMA No. 14, which consists of the East Hunting Block and the West Hunting Block. 

However, these illegal settlers, with impunity are cutting trees just five metres from the main road, the Mumbwa/Itezhi tezhi Road. They have come with goats and dogs and it is not longer really a game management area. They come with no transfer letters from their chiefs and when interrogated they say that they heard that there was idle land in Mumbwa. When they are asked as to what happened to where they were, they would say, that the land where they were was no longer productive because maize planted would start tussling at kneel height. In my opinion, this is an indication that the linkages between other ministries perhaps has failed. If the extension services in agriculture were working, they would impart these techniques and technology into our people and they would stay there.

Farmers who have been there for fifty years and have got their farms on title also supported these people that they know how to look after the soil. When they were asked where their grand children would go after they had finished the soil in Mumbwa, they said that there was no problem at all because they would head towards Kasempa since there are no people there.

Laughter

Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo: Now, that is a very serious issue.

Mr Chairperson, I hope that the hon. Minister in conjunction with the Resettlement Department in the Office of the Vice-President will look at these issues very quickly because in a few years time, game management areas will be decimated. In fact I want to share with this House and the nation that the East Hunting block of GMA 14 holds the world’s best trophy in antelope, but now one would be lucky to see even a rabbit.

Sir, the issues of road accesses are important because how do we get there? I hope that will also be looked at.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to comment on an issue which was belaboured for some time by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo. This year, the chaotic management of resident hunting ought not to be repeated. It would appear as if these late adverts, dissolution of ZAWA Board, adverts cancellation and recommencement come at the last minute as people are paying for the licences cancelled. This really does not depict an organised ministry. Really, it is our people after all that we hold these offices to serve. 

Sir, I also hope that the hon. Minister will comment on the plans she has with regards to safari concession that is ending this year. The opening of tenders should have been done this year so that this can run from 2013. Surely we are interested because that as it may be, we are told that a lot of money is realised from these safari concessions. For example, K14 billion, now I must ask: Who are the owners of these safari hunting concessions?. Are there any indigenous Zambians, if there are, how many? If these people are not making any business, why do they continue to hang on to safari concessions? Surely, there is something amiss there. It will do well for my young sister, as dynamic as she is, to focus her attention on these issues that have been brought to our attention. ZAWA must be made to operate as per the Act.

Mr Chairperson, I note that there are tax incentives that the hon. Minister mentioned, which will end in December, 2013. When one considers even going into game ranching, the minimum that is allowable is 300 hectares.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

There are too many people talking loudly on my left. 

Continue, hon. Member.

Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, for one to fence 300 hectares, it takes quite a bit of time. Could there not be an extension of this tax incentive because we remember that, when the late President, Dr F. T. J. Chiluba focused on improving the transport sector, there were tax rebates and one has never looked back. One can see indigenous Zambians doing business in the transport sector. Could the hon. Minister not consider that so that Zambians can fully participate meaningfully in wildlife conservation to generate wealth and create employment?

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister mentioned that infrastructure is one of those areas that need to be developed. Could she comment on where the policy lies with regard to game management and mining. I am informed that there is somebody who is exploring for minerals in Hunting Block West, Game Management Area Fourteen. We should choose what we want between wildlife and mining. My view is that the country should concentrate on sustainable development, and wildlife is one of those sectors that, for generations to come, will continue to bring social economic development to our country.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to conclude my debate by stating that, indeed, there have been efforts, for example, in Mfuwe, to build international airports, but we do not have anything of that nature in the Kafue National Park. There is an airstrip at Shunga, but that is all there is. However, if we were to improve that, we would link up not only Central Province to the Western Province, but any route to Mulobezi, Sesheke and the Kaprivi Strip. That would be a wonderful thing to happen to our area. 

Sir, I hope that the hon. Minister will be able to accelerate more the capacitating of ZAWA to be much more effective. Some effort has been made, but more improvement is needed.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to debate the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art’s policy statement. 

Sir, tourism, as a product, is a bit more complex than the ordinary products that we market generally because it includes all aspects of this country. In that regard, I would like to appeal to the PF Government that when it speaks tourism, it must speak one language and be consistent in the things said. We have been told that the Government considers tourism to be an important economic sector, and we acknowledge that. That is the reason tourism was re-classified from a social sector to an economic one in 1996. However, we are still more concerned with the number of inconsistencies in policies, which would either promote or damage this sector. Let me highlight a few of these inconsistencies for the purpose of my debate.

Sir, the ban on Zambian-registered airlines from flying into the EU has seen some inconsistency on the part of the Government. I am sure that a number of colleagues here will recall that, not too long ago, the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication vehemently denied that there was such a ban. This afternoon, the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts has just acknowledged what we have always known; that airlines that are registered in this country are not recognised or allowed in the EU. The key reason for that is the capacity of the Department of Civil Aviation (DCA), which is not considered to be independent enough to make correct professional assessments of airlines. The DCA is not considered autonomous but, rather, one that makes political decisions, instead of professional ones.

Sir, if in the same Government, one hon. Minister says that there is no ban imposed on Zambian airlines, but another says there is, and the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts asks us to help her, how do we do it? The Government is putting us in an awkward position, much as we want to help. The number of inconsistencies, the matters of things that it is not aware of in the sector, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

We are not listening, 

Please, Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Belemu: Sir, the number of inconsistencies in the Government is too high, and I think that it is high time the hon. Ministers started speaking one language, especially on sectors it wants to prioritise. The ban on our airlines from flying into the EU sounds like a very small matter but, when it comes to tourism marketing, it is a very big issue. The insurance companies of those countries which are our major market sources will not recognise a country whose airlines are considered unfit and risky. When coming up with travel insurance packages, they take into account the safety of the airlines in the country they intend to visit. So, when somebody buys a package in New York that might include air transport between Lusaka and Mfuwe or Lusaka and Livingstone, the immediate problem will be how these types of clients will connect since the airlines are considered a risk factor. Unfortunately, within the PF Government, some say they are not aware of the ban while others say that there is no ban when we all know that this ban is there and it is just a matter of common knowledge both in Zambia and outside this country.

Mr Chairperson, tour operators in this sector are also finding it very difficult to operate in an environment where the Government policies, decisions, statements and activities are very inconsistent. Some of these Government policies and statements negate the very essence of us marketing Zambia’s tourism. I will cite a few examples.

Sir, I have said here, before, that the colleagues in the PF Government have done a lot of damage to tourism, although, when they come here, they want to tell us that they are helping and building tourism. I want to emphasise the fact that what we say and do, as a country, particularly those in the Government, also reflects on how we are going to promote Zambia as a tourist destination. There has been a number of reckless and careless statements and activities by those in the PF and their associates which have caused a lot of damage to Zambia’s tourism.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, let us take, for example, denying Zambians the right to associate citing security concerns as the major reason. What you are doing …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Why are we degenerating into something I can call indiscipline? Continue and address the Chair because, when you say, “You”, sometimes, you invite them to make those running commentaries.

Dr Kaingu rose.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: On whom, because I am speaking?

Dr Kaingu resumed his seat.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Belemu, continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. It is …

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to apologise for interrupting my colleague, who is debating very well. As a very important member of my party, I rise on a very serious point of order. There has been some fighting amongst PF cadres in Chipata over the Chipata Central Constituency seat. Is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to keep quiet while his members are fighting over an impending by-election? Does it mean that there is a leakage from the Supreme Court to the PF that the seat will be nullified? This type of justice is disgusting and … 

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I am wondering hat is happening between the PF and the Judiciary. 

I need your serious ruling.

Mr Chairperson: Order! 

I think that, since we do not know what the Supreme Court will say on that matter, we can leave it to those people out there in Chipata to do what they think is best, except fighting, of course.

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I think that we are in an even worse situation, now, than when I started speaking five minutes ago. It is strange that some people on your right do not even know the connection between meetings and tourism. They are not aware that there is a category of tourism that focuses on meetings. It is very strange and more worrying, and I am even in a predicament now because I do not know whether I should elaborate on this.

Mr Chairperson, the other matter that I want to comment on is the need for the hon. Ministers of Tourism and Art, and Foreign Affairs to revise our current visa regime. It is very important that we begin to move towards what we say regarding various sectors. If tourism is a priority and we want to promote it, we must be moving towards making travel as easy as possible for the international tourist or traveler. For example, currently, there is an airline that is domiciled in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) that comes into this country. However, the nearest point for the nationals of that country to access visas to Zambia is Egypt. Now, with this difficulty associated with obtaining a visa, whereby somebody in UAE has to travel to Egypt to obtain a visa to come to Zambia, the end result is that some of the potential tourists to Zambia will not be able to come here, which entails a loss of tourism revenue on our part. So, it is important that we update our visa regime.

Mr Chairperson, the other matter that the hon. Minister should be addressing with her colleagues in the region is that of South Africa’s declaration of Zambia as a yellow fever-prone country when the World Health Organisation (WHO) considers Zambia a very low-risk country where the same disease is concerned. We travel elsewhere without yellow fever vaccinations. We also know that most of the international tourists who come into this country either transit via South Africa, for a number of reasons, or other destinations. So, if these matters are not addressed at the bilateral level, our talk of wanting to promote tourism will do very little for us. A little while ago, we were talking about an era of outbreaks of districts. Now, we have entered an era of outbreaks of universities.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: What I would have wanted to hear out of these outbreaks is the construction of a university to focus on Zambia’s tourism training, other than to keep talking about the same institutions. Even if we talk about standards and lament about this and that without doing practical things, which, in this case, includes having a university that is focused on tourism development, we will do very little to promote tourism. So, within the context of these outbreaks, can we have an outbreak of a university focused on tourism development in this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: We also want to urge the hon. Minister and the rest of the Government to speak one language. Like I said, we are worried with the number of inconsistencies. Not too long ago, there was a statutory instrument (SI) on the need for us to use the kwacha, as opposed to quoting prices in the United States (US) Dollar and other foreign currencies. I think that we all know, by now, the outcry that came from the tourism sector and the number of representations that were made on this matter. I ask the hon. Minister, together with her Finance counterpart, to re-visit this matter so that exemptions are made for this sector. We know that there are exemptions, for example, on visa fees. It is still allowed to quote and pay visa fees in US Dollars. We can do the same for certain products within the tourism sector. I think that those levels of inconsistencies that worry us when we hear the Government say, on one hand, that it wants to promote tourism and, on the other hand, do the opposite.

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry for disturbing the hon. Member debating. However, is he in order, in his debate, to declare King Lewanika University in Western Province as an outbreak?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, we want King Lewanika University to be constructed very soon. I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Okay, I have had two or three points of order on the hon. Member speaking, and I hope this will be the last. Can hon. Member debating take that into account as he debates.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I realise that outbreaks come very simultaneously. It is good that the hon. Member wants a university in his area soon. So, the outbreak approach is the best that could happen.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, we need to plan ahead when we are talking about tourism because the effects of our decisions last very long into the future. I think that the number of inconsistencies, changes and contradicting statements are a source of concern in the tourism sector. Let us pick an example. We are co-hosting the UNWTO Conference with our colleagues across in Zimbabwe. By and large, the Zimbabweans have maintained the same posture, structure and staff that they started with at the time of bidding. In our case, we have changed over and over, and it is those kinds of inconsistencies that make our tourism sector look very unstable. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central adequately covered the issue of ZAWA boards. The situation obtaining on the ZAWA board is the same for most of the boards of institutions in this sector; they become very jittery whenever there is a change of the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art because they do not know what will happen next. We need to follow the terms of tenure of board members of public institutions in this sector. Where there is no board, like at ZAWA, let us have it in place so that we begin to see the benefits of having boards as intended by the law. It is important that the hon. Minister also helps us to solve the puzzle of the price of Zambia’s tourism products being higher compared with other places in the region. We can say so many things to justify this and, at times, even deny that this is the case. However, the summary remains the same. The cost of accessing our tourism products is higher than in other countries, including connectivity to our tourist attractions. So, the hon. Minister must help us to find solutions to some of those fundamental issues in the sector. If that is not attended to, no matter how much money we put in this sector, we will continue talking with nothing changing.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, since Zambia is co-hosting the UNWTO General Assembly, may I take this opportunity, in case no one else has done it or will, in the near future, to thank Hon. Dr Kaingu for initiating the process.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: I recall that he initiated this in Abuja, Nigeria, after he successfully chaired the UNWTO Commission for Africa because of the rapport. So, I am grateful that he did it and I was with him. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: I think that is how patriotic some of us are. You may praise yourself, but some of us have done a lot for this country. 

Mr Muntanga: Iwe, Kosamu, where were you?

Interruptions

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, since there are people who are challenging me, let me say that when I went to work for the Tourism Board, I found that arrivals in Zambia were about 450. Three years later, the number increased to over 800. If those are not achievements, what are they?

Hon. Opposition Member: Were you with Kosamu?

Mr Belemu: No, I do not even know him.

Mr Chairperson, we want to help this ministry, but they should be consistent and realistic in the way they do things.

Mr Chisala: On a point of order.

The Chairperson: Order!

Normally, I do not go back on what I have said. I said no more points of order. The hon. Member on the Floor should be mindful of the time. There are other hon. Members who want to debate.

You can continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to urge the Government to be consistent with what they say and do. They are damaging this sector by saying one thing and doing the opposite. This also goes for the hon. Minister because she carries the marketing flag for this country. What she does and says in this country must be consistent with what she wants to say at international fora. Unfortunately, she has made very careless statements which are damaging this sector.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: For example, she recently said that there are some opposition parties which are refusing people to move out of the streets in Livingstone. That is very damaging when she knows that we will be hosting a very important conference. 

Hon. UPND Member: What is the problem?

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Order! 

The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Ms Imenda (Luena):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I will be brief.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, order!

You can continue, hon. Member.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, in supporting the Vote, I would like to talk about the issue of infrastructure. Forty-eight years after Independence, Zambia still compares very badly with Zimbabwe in terms of tourism infrastructure.  There are two common frontiers that …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, give her a chance to be heard.

You can continue.{mospagebreak}

Ms Imenda: … we share with Zimbabwe. One of them is the Victoria Falls. Notwithstanding the problems that Zimbabwe has been facing in the recent past, when you compare the infrastructure in Zimbabwe with that in Zambia, we cannot beat them.

Somebody raised a question, here, the other time about how prepared we were for the hosting of the UNWTO Conference to be held next year in Livingstone and we were told of the measures that had been taken. I will not quarrel with that, but I just thought I should alert citizens who have an interest in this. We are not doing well, as Zambia, compared to Zimbabwe. If you go to Lake Kariba in Siavonga and compare the infrastructure on either side of the Zambezi River, we cannot beat Zimbabwe. Let us be frank and serious. So, what is our standing on the forthcoming UNWTO Conference? Preparation is not only about infrastructure, but also …

The Chairperson: Order!    

May the hon. Members on my left, please, consult quietly?  She also wants to be heard. 

You can continue, hon. Member.

Ms Imenda: … about community sensitisation and tourism consciousness. Let us prepare for a lot of activities so that we sell our tourism industry. We should not concentrate on building lodges, but there is a lot that can be done. Can we learn from other countries that are very advanced in tourism activities?

I would also like to agree with the hon. Minister over the lack of tourism marketing. Let us compare Zambia with Kenya. We brag about 800,000 tourist visits in Zambia per year and pat ourselves on the back for this. That is nothing. Let us compare ourselves with Kenya which receives millions of tourists. Kenya does not have the Victoria Falls, but has done very well in the tourism sector. It has really marketed itself.  Kenya also does not have the source of the Zambezi River, which we have. Have we marketed this? No, we just pay lip service to it.  Kenya does not have the many falls that we have all over the country, like in the northern sector and even on the Zambezi River such as the Sioma Falls and another one in the Chavuma area. Kenya may not have these falls, but we have. It beats us in terms of marketing.  One of the reasons Kenya has advanced in that area is tourism marketing and the existence of the national airline. 

Mr Chairperson, I do not know whether people will consider it retrogressive, but I think for posterity’s sake, let us go back to the drawing board and think seriously about having a national airline if our tourism industry has to prosper. I would suggest that we set up a fund. For the sake of those who were born much later and do not know how the University of Zambia was initially built, I would like to inform them that every citizen at that time contributed something to set up a fund for the construction of the university. 

Interruptions

Ms Imenda: Why can we not set up a fund to raise money for the national airline? Even the mining industry can be used. This is our chance. We have a boom in copper. Please, let us have a legacy from copper. By the time there are holes in our country, at least, there will be a structure or something to show that profits from the sale of copper were used to build. Let us not be shy to tax the mines so that they contribute to this very noble cause. The Government has initiated the construction of a railway line which the mines will utilise by transporting copper outside and leave us with holes. Please, let them also contribute something. 

Mr Chairperson, some tourists do not know that the Victoria Falls are in Zambia. They think they are in South Africa because the airlines that fly via Johannesburg have proudly labelled the Victoria Falls on the planes. South Africans are really taking advantage of this. What are we getting out of this? 

Again, Mr Chairperson, there are some countries like Kenya which have good packages. Zambia does not have a national airline and, because of this, tourists use other airlines like Kenya Airlines. It has a package which includes accommodation and other things. They pay for everything in Kenya to come and stay in Zambia. The money remains in Kenya.  Tourists come here to eat our food, labour and the good hospitality offered, but we do not get anything out of this. I hope the hon. Minister will audit all the lodges that are by the Zambezi frontier as to how much they are contributing to the Zambian coffers. One day, we went to one of the lodges on the Zambezi Frontier and were told that it was fully booked for the next three months. However, I am sure that if a Zambian auditor went there, they would tell him/ her that they do not make enough money. So, where is all that money going? Can we seriously look at thisissue?

Mr Chairperson, let us also learn good practices from countries such as Kenya on how they have advanced their tourism sector. I would suggest that when you travel to some of these places such as Kenya to learn good practices, you, please, take me.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: Please, take me with you because I also want to learn so that I can come and contribute here. After all, mimininajubakuzungumuzaki Swahili nakusikiya. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Meaning what?

Ms Imenda:Therefore, I will be able to communicate with the local people.

Interruptions

Mr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Unfortunately, I will not allow a point of order.

Ms Imenda: I want to translate.

The Chairperson: Please, translate.

Ms Imenda:Mr Chairperson, I would like to translate. I was saying that after all, I know how to speak Swahili and canalso understand it. That is all I was saying.

Mr Nkombo:Sema!

Hon. Member: Interpret.

Ms Imenda: I have interpreted. I want to give a chance to other people to debate. Therefore, with these few words, I would like to thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate on the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Tourism and Art. I thank those who were able to stand up and make contributions to this very important sector. I note that there were many others who would have wanted to speak, but time is not always in our favour.  I thank you and I am sorry that some Members were not given the opportunity to debate. I also know that a lot of Members on the right hand side of the Chairperson would have also wanted to debate but, as usual, time is jealous.  

Mr Chairperson, I am very happy at the way that many of the hon. Members are beginning to talk about tourism. Clearly, the Government, and the ministry in particular, is doing a very good job in trying to raise awareness on the importance of this sector. I have been in this House for the last ten years and this is my third term.I am very happy to see a lot of interest being generated by a number of speakers, especially in the last three months that I have been in this position. It tells me that many people are beginning to appreciate the subject and this is why theyare able to contribute in an efficient manner. Please, keep it up.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to start with statementswhich I will not respond to and theseare the issues of the formation of the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA)Boardand hunting. I think that I need to come back to the House to issue a ministerial statement on the status of hunting in Zambia to give information to my colleagues so that they can appreciate what this hunting is all about and that they can also raise any issues relating to the formation of the ZAWA Board. I do not want to spoil this important document (Yellow Book) with issues that are not properly researched because, sometimes, people are given backdoor information from eitherside for them to come and create difficulties in dealing witha matter such as the Budget. I want Zambians who are listening to be very clear about what we are doing this afternoon. Therefore, I will bring a ministerial statement to talk about hunting in Zambia and all the issues connected to it vis-à-visthe resident and foreign hunting.

Mr Chairperson, I was very pleased with the statements from – I was going to say Counselor Mwale – Hon. Mwale from Mfuwe.

Hon. Members: From Malambo.

Mrs Masebo: From Malambo. He articulated issues on tourism very well and efficiently. I think that one of the good parts was that he kept saying ‘I agree with what the hon. Minister said’ and was just repeating what I had said. So, thank you very much. Clearly, we are speaking the same language.

Mr Chairperson, let me specifically address an issue that needs my attention. This is an assertion that in the past, people saw wild life as being only for the pots and not for viewing or appreciating, as is the case now. I want to differ with Hon. Mwale because, in fact, in the past, the people living in the national parks new better how to manage and conserve wildlife. That is why,when we created ZAWA, we had more animals then than we have today.The villagers knew which animals to hunt in terms of the age and species and they also knew which animals needed to be conserved. They would decide to give certain animals three years so that they could multiply. Thus, we had plenty of animals. Therefore, that point is not true. It is the modern hunting which is characterised by greed and people who only thinkabout their pockets. This is where we have a problem and our wildlife in Zambia is being threatened with complete  …

Mrs Maseboconsulted Professor Luo.

Professor Luo: Extinction.

Mrs Masebo:  … extinction. Thank you Professor Luo. That is why you are a professor.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Now, I want to consolidate my statement with what the hon. Member of Parliament for Mumbwa, Hon. Dr Chituwo, said when he said that today, we have people who are encroaching thenational parksnot because they do not have land, but because they want to go and poach. Not just poaching for the pot, but for resale of trophies and cutting down trees and other natural resources that are found there. As a Government and, as a country, we must say no to this. 

Mr Chairperson, we also know that in the past, this was encouraged by some of our colleagues who are seated in here today. I have clear memories of a number of issues to do with encroachment in national parks where people came here and fought for people to settle in game parks and national parks as opposed to normal settlements.

Therefore, Hon. Dr Chituwo, I want to say that the Office of the Vice-President, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs and my ministry are working together to look at the issue of illegal encroachments in national parks and the Government is taking the matter seriously and will come back later on the way forward.

Mr Chairperson, in fact, I just came back from Malawi where I was attending a meeting with my counterpart on issues of wildlife. I must tell you that I was embarrassed at one of the burning issues there. Zambians have moved and illegally settledin one of the national parks in Malawi. They were mixed with Malawians, but the Malawian Government has removed all the Malawians from that national park. The only people remaining are Zambian citizens.They said to me that we want to do this diplomatically because you are our brotherly country and we do not want to create unnecessary friction. This is how serious this issue of settling in national parks is becoming. I think that all of us, both on the right and left, must work together to resolve this matter.Otherwise, there will be no tourism to talk about.

Mr Chairperson, I agree that the alternative sources of income that he talked about are necessary and important. We want to encourage people there to start keeping pigs, cows and chickens like their colleagues in the Southern Province.Maybe,you can ask Hon. Muntanga how to keep animals. He would be able to help you, Hon. Mwale, so that you can have enough meat. I agree that is for the pot. 

There are programmes that the Government is looking at, especially under the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, in terms of getting communities to keep animals for protein. Yes, the issue of collaboration with other ministries is indeed, an important aspect, and I think I said that in the coming year, one of our programmes is to see how best the Ministry of Tourism and Arts can collaborate with the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, Ministry of Home Affairs, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and all these other important line ministries which feed into tourism.

Mr Chairperson, I agree when I am told that resources for ZAWA are not enough to monitor the 30 per cent landmass. I think that in my statement, I accepted this. However, I said that due to budget constraints we have to roll out this programme maybe in the next two years to help ZAWA employ more workers to monitor poaching.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of human and animal conflict is an issue that is very dear to our ministry and currently, ZAWA is working with the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) under the Vice-President’s office have created a unit to work together to see how best they can prevent any further conflicts and assist those people that are faced with attacks by some animals especially elephants. I want to say that the long term answer to this is the one of policy and that is why, currently, we are reviewing the ZAWA policy to make sure that we take into account all these issues and have a solid policy direction and legislative support based on policy.

Mr Chairperson, Mr Muntanga raised a number of issues. I think that one  of the issues he raised , which was already raised was infrastructure, in particular , the road that Dr Chituwo also talked about, which is the road that can open the Kafue National Park to Kalomo and to the Great North Road or Great South Road. I think that is the Mongu Road. There is a road which is a short-cut from Mosi O Tunya National Park in Livingstone to Kafue National Park. It would pass through Kalomo, Itezhi Tezhi to Mumbwa. That road is very …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

You are making it difficult for her to wind up. We want to have the Heads done. Give her time so that she can debate uninterrupted. You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I want to say that there is need for this road to be opened, and we are looking at that. Hopefully, we will work with the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication to come up with something, especially in the next Budget and not this one because there is no provision for it this year.

Mr Chairperson, Dr Chituwo lamented about the illegal settlements and I think I have answered that concern, and the issue of the road has been tackled. He also raised the issue of the hunters, game ranching and wildlife. Clearly, there is not enough information on this and I have said that a ministerial statement to that effect will be brought here.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala talked about the capacity of the civil aviation and the inconsistencies. I do not really appreciate the inconsistencies he talked about because, for instance, he talked about the inconsistencies of the Statutory Instrument (SI) which was issued on the  dolarisation of the Kwacha. I want to say that I think that when SIs are issued by sector ministries, it is important that hon. Members of Parliament understand them. If they do not understand them, they must ask the Ministry of Finance or any relevant hon. Minister so that they can help their communities to understand. If there is ignorance among the hon. Members of Parliament, what do you expect from people on the ground. It suffices to say that this issue has been appreciated by those in the tourism sector now because we took time to sit with them. Officials from the Bank of Zambia and the Ministry of Finance travelled with me and we sat with the operators and we articulated the issue. The issue is simple. This has always been a law. The fact that it was not being implemented does not mean that something had changed. Nothing much had changed except that any services and goods which are being sold in the country must be paid for in Kwacha. If you are abroad, then you should pay in foreign currency. Therefore, there is no inconsistency. There has been no inconsistency from me. I am a very clear and straight forward person. Of course, I am human, sometimes, I will err. This is why you hear hon. Members saying that some people think that they are clever. 

Mr Chairperson, when you hear a man talking about a woman being clever, then you should know that there is an issue of a complex.  I do not think that there has been any inconsistency at all. We are a very consistent Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I think the hon. Member of Parliament has been in this ministry. Let me just advise people. When you have been in a ministry, etiquette demands that when you speak about that ministry, you should try to advise and praise the people in it. You should not use your information as a former hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, for instance, to start talking about the local government even if you know more about it that the person who is there. That is not etiquette. I just thought I should advise some people on this because if you were in a ministry, and the problems that you left are still there, it means you are part of the problem.

Mr Chairperson, I want to move to another issue of high prices on tourism products. I should help the House to understand the puzzle. I want to say that I met the operators in Livingstone last week. We had a thorough discussion over the matter. One of the issues which came out clearly is that in the past, when Zimbabwe was having problems, many tourists left Zimbabwe and started coming to Zambia. A number of our tour operators thought they had become a monopoly and prices were hiked. However, Zimbabwe has gone through its problems and the economy and tourism sector has just started booming. The tour operators have not gone back to using their old prices. They are still living in the past. Therefore, we have agreed that they need to bring all the issues on the table. I have a meeting with them next week so that we look at the cost issues so that we can take them up with the Ministry of Finance.

Mr chairperson, I am trying to answer as many questions as possible. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala, I hope I have answered your issues about inconsistencies and self praise. 

Mr Chairperson, let me go to the last point raised by my sister Mrs Imenda, the Swahili lady. She spoke very good Swahili. I think that we should try to be objective and positive, sometimes, because if you keep saying statements like ‘Zimbabwe is better than us’ - We all know that Britain is better than Zambia. However, I think that what is important to ask is, what are we doing to try and better ourselves. In my ministerial statement, I laid out all the factors that are affecting tourism and there is nobody who has brought a new point on this Floor from your left.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I have articulated all the challenges, the way forward and the programmes lined up for 2013. I have also said the weaknesses we have  in terms of resources. I have not refused anything. I have tried to accept whatever anybody has said. All I want to say is that we are doing our best. In terms of preparedness, my colleagues will be helped if they spoke to the hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone, Reverend Sikwela. He will tell you that Livingstone is slightly better than it was before and that we are putting every effort to make Livingstone better.

Sir, I would like to urge my colleagues to spend some time to read and listen to Policy Statements from other ministries. Today’s newspaper says that so much money has been given out in Livingstone for improvements. Even in this Budget, Hon. Muntanga admitted that there is a lot of money going to Livingstone for the preparations of the UNWTO. This tells you that there is some effort and I think we must not shoot ourselves in the dark.

Sir, Lastly, I want to state that …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

I think the interest should be that we pass the Budget.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister in order to drag me into agreeing things that I did not instead of concentrating on approving her Budget? Is this an indication that she does not want the Budget to be approved? Is she in order to continue boring us with unnecessary things instead of talking about figures, and also attacking the Reverend who is already married?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Can the hon. Minister please wind up.

Laughter 

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I am only trying to do what is good, and that is to answer all the issues raised by my colleagues on your left. However, since they are satisfied to the extent that they want me to stop answering their questions, I want to conclude by stating that in the PF Government, the Ministry of Tourism and Art is moving. I can see that your left is very active on this Vote. I want to welcome them to continue with the same spirit. That is the only way we shall grow and create more awareness to our people on issues of tourism.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 68/01 – (Ministry of Tourism and Art – Human Resource and Administration – K28,789,287,275)

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1001, Activity 006 – Support to Minister’s Office – K1,045,800,000. I would like to understand what this colossal allocation which I have not seen in other Ministers including the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which I believe plays an important role in globetrotting the world to promote peace and attend many regional and international conferences…

The Chairperson: Order!

I think the question is clear enough.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism and Art (Mr Phiri): Mr Chairperson, this allocation is meant for not only cater for the hon. Minister but for the two deputy ministers …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Phiri: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on …

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

We have to make progress and pass the Budget. Plea, let us take that into consideration.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, we have the Standing Orders to help us understand the dos and don’ts of this august House. When rulings are made by you, they are supposed to be respected by all the hon. Members of Parliament in this House. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka to come into this House in a corduroy jacket when a ruling was made this immediately we came, this afternoon? I seek your serious ruling.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I made a statement this afternoon and emphasised the point that we should abide by our own rules. Although in the past we had said that we would use our discretion, we do not even want the discretion to become the rule. So, Hon. Nkombo is definitely not in order and therefore, I will ask him to leave the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Nkombo: this is not corduroy, Sir, I challenge that you can look at the texture.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: This is velvet, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, live the House, whether it is velvet or corduroy, never mind.

Laughter

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Can Hon. Mbulakulima continue, please.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1009, Activity 039 – Pre-Audit Payment Vouchers – K264,500,000. I understand the increase from K16.7 million to this amount. However, being the Activity-Based Budget, what new things will be involved in this? Activity 049 – Verification of Store and Inventory – K92,775,000. There is an increase from K8.1 million to K92 million. I understand the definition and the meaning. What extras have been introduced to warrant this?

Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1009, Activity 039 – Pre-Audit Payment Vouchers – K264,500,000, this amount will also be used to procure one motor vehicle for field operations. Activity 049 – Verification of Store and Inventory – K92,775,000, this amount is for stepping up the verification of stores and inventory, which as you realise from the previous Budget, the money was grossly under-budgeted. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1003, Activity 033 – Review of Training Plan – K170,951,400. I would like to know what is so involving in warranting such an amount of money just for reviewing a plan.

Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, as you are aware, this is a new ministry and there is a lot that is required in developing new plans.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1009, Activity 039 – Pre-Audit of Payment Vouchers – K264,500,000, and Activity 047 – Verification of Audit Responses – Nil. I would like to understand the activities because, as far as I am concerned, these issues are the reasons workers are paid. Why are there extra payments of the amounts reflecting in the Budget?

Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, these are very important and meant for audit purposes. You may be aware that it is important for activities to be audited by the department of auditing in order to make sure that nothing goes wrong.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson: Before I allow Hon. Siliya to debate, allow me to refer to my decision to send Hon. Nkombo out. I have noticed that he has changed and come back in. This, probably, that means that we, hon. Members, do things to test the ground.

Laughter

The Chairperson: The next time you are ordered out, you may not be allowed in. So, please, take note of that. 

Ms Siliya (Petauke): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1009, Activity 039 – Pre-Audit of Payment Vouchers – K264,500,000. The hon. Minister emphasised the importance of these activities vis-à-vis auditing. However, in an early answer given on Activity 039, the hon. Minister stated that the drastic increase of funds was because the Government was going to purchase a vehicle. Would it not be prudent for it to admit that it should have put that as a stand-alone activity because this activity is for the pre-audit of payment vouchers? How can they say that they are going to use that activity to also purchase a vehicle?
 
Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, the vehicle to be purchased will be used specifically for the function of the pre-audit of payment vouchers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1009, Activity 012 – Audit of Forest Revenue and Revolving Funds – K80,000,000. My interest is to know what, exactly, this forest revenue is.

Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, these funds have been set aside to facilitate audits of revenue collected by tourism departments, which include casino licenses, hotels and lodges licenses. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Forests?

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1003, Activity 033 – Review of Training Plan – K170,951,400. I would …

The Chairperson: That was asked and the answer was given.

Mr Mulusa: I know, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: So, why are you asking if you know?

Mr Mulusa: What I would like to know is why it must cost so much? Is it going to be paid to consultants? It baffles my mind.

The Chairperson: Hon. Mulusa, once a question has been asked and an answer given, you either agree or disagree with it. We cannot continue to hop on that issue. It is over.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 68/01 – Ministry of Tourism and Arts – Human Resource Management and Administration – K28,789,287,275 be ordered to stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted. 

Ayes – (66)

Mrs E. M. Banda 
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Dr Chikusu
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chitotela
Mr S. Chungu
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kapata
Brig-General Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mrs Kawandami
Mrs Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Dr E. Lungu
Mr E. C. Lungu
Col. J. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
M. M. H. Malama
Mrs Masebo
Mr Masumba
Mr Matafwali
Mr Mbulu
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Muchima
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musukwa
Mr B. Mutale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mrs Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwila
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Phiri
Dr J. N. T. Phiri
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sampa
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Sichone
Mr Sikazwe
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simuusa
Mr Tembo
Prof. Willombe 
Mr Wina
Mr Yaluma
Zimba
Mr Zulu 

Noes – (54)

Mr W. Banda 
Mr Belemu
Mr Chipungu 
Mr Chisanga
Mr Chishiba
Dr Chituwo
Mrs Chungu
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamudulu 
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
Dr Kaingu
Dr Kalila
Mr Katambo
Dr Kazonga
Mr Kunda
Mr Livune
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mr Malama Mushili
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Monde
Mr Mooya
Mr Mtolo
Mr Mucheleka
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Mulusa
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane 
Mr M. Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr V. Mwale 
Mr M. B. Mwale 
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Ndalamei 
Mr Nkombo
Mr Pande
Mr Sianga
Rev. Sikwela
Mr Sililo
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Simfukwe
Mr L. Zimba

Abstentions – NIL

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 68/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Votes 68/02 and 68/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: There is an amendment on Vote 68/02.

Mr Chairperson: I do not have an amendment.

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: There was supposed to be an amendment on Vote 68/02, but I did not see it. 

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: I did not have an amendment with me. If I do not have it, that is it.

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Let the hon. Minister move an amendment first.

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Look, as the Chairperson, I did not realise that there was an amendment. Although we passed that Vote, I have to indicate that there was an amendment. I do not know what the argument is all about. I am following the procedure.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we were indicating when we were on that Vote, but you said we should proceed. 

Mr Chairperson: I will allow you to raise that issue after the hon. Minister has moved his amendment.

Mr Muntanga: Now, you have realised that there is a mistake and you want us to go back. 

Mr Chairperson: That is why we are going back.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we are all part of this game.

Mr Chairperson: Hon. Muntanga, do not argue with me. That is the decision. I am sorry that I cannot agree with you. Let the hon. Minister move the amendment and, if you have any comment, I will allow you to do so afterwards. 

VOTE 68/02 – Ministry of Tourism and Arts – Planning and Information Department – K7,531,667,194).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Unit 02: Policy Programmes and Evaluation, Programme 1030: Bilateral, Multi-lateral and Regional Co-operation, Activity 701 – Support to International Development Co-operation in Tourism Sector, by the deletion of K163,907,680.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1030, Activity 018 – Joint Permanent Commissions – K280 million.

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of procedure?

The Chairperson: Is your point of procedure on what Hon. Muntanga was talking about?

Laughter

Mr Chairperson: You can go ahead.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, on this side of the House, we are getting concerned every day. You have already guided on the dress code. So, are the members of the Executive in order to be at the bar, drinking whisky and enjoying themselves when we are dealing with serious issues in this House? They only come back to the House when there is a division. Are they, really, in order to be wasting the country’s time when they are supposed to do serious business here? 

I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Order!

There will be no serious ruling on this matter because this is not the first time we have been doing these things. In fact, hon. Members, you are putting yourselves on the line. You recall that someone said that one hon. Member came to this House drunk. You are confirming what was said. I think that we have to be careful with what we say. Let us not bring in these unnecessary interruptions. 

Continue, Mr Mwale. 

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1030, Activity 018 – Joint Permanent Commissions – K280 million. What are these Joint Permanent Commissions and how different are they from those that are under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?

Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, they are different in the sense that these Joint Permanent Commissions are specific to tourism. 

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1019, Activity 018 – Accommodation Establishment Data Collection – K425,500,000. This amount appears to be too excessive just for the purpose of collecting data on accommodation in this country. Why is it so high?

Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, funds allowing, we would have wanted even more because this activity covers the whole country. We will not even achieve all that we would have wanted to achieve with the K425,500,000,. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1010, Activity 002 – Audit Queries Management – K177,680,000.

Mr Chairperson: Order!

On what page is that?

Hon. Members: We have already passed that Vote.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I thought we went back. I am sorry for that.

Laughter

Vote 68/02, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 68/03 – Ministry of Tourism and Arts – Tourism Development Department – K44,803,335,007).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(a)    under Unit 07 – Tourism Development Unit, Programme – 1012 Infrastructure Development, Activity 232, Rehabilitation of Infrastructure – HTTI, by the deletion of K500,000,000;

(b)    under Unit 07 – Tourism Development Unit, Programme 1179 – Tourism Sector Development Programmes, Activity 007, Generic Marketing Programme – ZTB, by the deletion of K15,000,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K12,000,000,000; and

(c)    under Unit 07 – Tourism Development Unit, Programme 1179 – Tourism Sector Development Programmes, Activity 701 – Support to community-based tourism, by the deletion of K100,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K4,263,907,680.

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on …

Mr Kaingu (Mwandi): On a point of procedure.

The Chairperson: I will not grant that.

Laughter

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on a point of procedure.

The Chairperson: I have said no.

Order!

We cannot be debating procedures, and I am not granting that point of procedure. Continue Hon. Milambo.

Mr Milambo: … Programme 1178 …

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, on a point of procedure.

The Chairperson: I have ruled that I will not grant the point of procedure.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, order!

Let us have order.

Hon. Kaingu, you are trying to challenge the Chair. Therefore, can you leave the House. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu left the Assembly Chamber.

The Chairperson: Order, order!

Can you continue, hon. Member.

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1178, Activity 009 …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Milambo: … – Product Marketing – K300,000,000. The provision for 2013 has reduced by K190,000,000, from K490,000,000 to K300,000,000. I would like to find out the reason for this reduction.

Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1178, Activity 009 – Product Marketing – K300,000,000. We have reduced this allocation because we have concentrated on allocating resources to the UNWTO General Assembly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 1005, Activity 017 – Hotel and Tourism Training Institute Trust – Nil and Activity 049 – Zambia Tourist Board – Nil. I have noticed that there are no funds that have been allocated to these institutions. I would like to find out why this is so. 
Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1005, Activity 017 – Hotel and Tourism Training Institute Trust – Nil and Activity 049 – Zambia Tourist Board – Nil. These activities have been transferred to Head 68/01 Ministry of Tourism and Human Resource and Administration (HRA).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 1304, Activity 001 – Collection and Monitoring – K483,000,000. I would like to find out why there is a raise from K118,000,000 to K483,000,000.

Further, Mr Chairperson, Programme 1204, Activity 003 – Product Quality – Nil. I would also like to find out why there are no funds allocated to this activity this year?

The Deputy Minister of Tourism and Art (Mr Mukata): Mr Chairperson, Programme 1304, Activity 001 – Collection and Monitoring – K483,000,000. This provision is intended to facilitate the preparation for the implementation of the tourism levy. It includes funds from Programme 1010, Activity 046, and the increase is aimed at facilitating the purchase of motor vehicles.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, with regard the second question, that activity will now be implemented under UNWTO on Programme 1179, Activity 011.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 63/03 as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/04 – (Ministry of Tourism and Arts – Arts and Culture Department K13,880,836,077).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 03: Culture Affairs Unit, Programme 1005: Grants to institutions – Operational, Activity 109, Grants to Projects from Districts and Provinces, by the deletion of K500,000.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 377 – Construction of Permanent Structures at Ceremony Venues – K500,000,000. Last year, there were no funds allocated for this activity, but this year there is an allocation of K500,000,000. I would like to find out where these permanent structures will be constructed.

Mr Mukata: Mr Chairperson, let me point out that there is so much noise.

The Chairperson: No, please, answer the question.

Mr Mukata: The funds are required for the initial construction works for the national cultural centre.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Member: Where?

Mr Mukata: In Lusaka.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 1002, Activity 024 – Other Functions and Ceremonies – K611,440,000. This is a lot of money that has been allocated for this activity. I would like to find out what these functions and ceremonies are?

Mr Mukata: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1002, Activity 024 – Other Functions and Ceremonies – K611,440,000. This is a new activity in conformity with the new activity codes. The funds are required to provide logistical support to the organising committees of the district and provincial shows. As you may be aware, as indicated, that there are other programmes that are going on in cultural villages and so on and so forth. Therefore, these funds are needed to meet those activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 68/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the 
Chair]

VOTE 21 – (Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance – K6,629,527,624,030)and VOTE 37 – (Ministry of Finance – K1,328,654,782,732).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to present my policy statement on the 2013 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Finance. In my debate, I will focus on Vote 21 Loans and Investments and Vote 37, Ministry of Finance. 

The Ministry of Finance is charged with the responsibility of national planning and managing the economy at the macro level. The ministry is also responsible for mobilising and managing public resources. Further, it is responsible for co-ordinating the preparation of national budgets, in line with the plans of the country. 

In this regard, the ministry is currently implementing the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP), which covers the period 2011 to 2015 as a development tool, and is being complemented by the Patriotic Front Manifesto, strategically focusing on infrastructure and human development, both in the rural and urban areas. 

Mr Chairperson, let me start with Vote 21, Loans and Investments. As hon. Members of this august House are aware, provisions under Vote 21, as the name suggests, are not for the Ministry of Finance per se, but cover various projects across ministries and sectors. Specifically, this Vote contains contributions and subscriptions to international organisations, counterpart funding to donor-aided projects, financial restructuring and recapitalisation of State owned enterprises and road infrastructure. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, a total of K6.6 trillion has been provided under Vote 21. Out of this amount, K3.3 trillion has been proposed for road infrastructure under the Road Development Agency (RDA). This will facilitate work on, at least, 1,500 km of our roads. The allocation is consistent with the Road Sector Policy goal which is to transform Zambia from a landlocked to a land-linked country, through the development of trade corridors and opening up the country side. In this regard, the Government will ensure that the existing road infrastructure is maintained and rehabilitated. We are also committed to upgrading some roads and constructing new ones. 

Mr Chairperson, K3.2 trillion has been provided for recapitalisation and investment of Government institutions. Of this amount; K984.3 billion is for electricity generation, transmission and distribution infrastructure; K642.6 billion is for the railway network; K204 billion has been provided for infrastructure in the newly-formed districts and provinces, just as a beginning; K149.5 billion is for projects such as the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund, Cancer Diseases Hospital Phase II Project, Zambia Consensus Project and for Youth Skills Training and Development; K40.7 billion is for payment of contributions to regional and international organisations; and K70 billion has been provided as Government contribution to the establishment of the Public Service Credit Union. 

Mr Chairperson, a credit union is a financial co-operative owned and controlled by its members, in this case, the Public Service workers, who pool savings together to offer low cost and flexible financial products to members. The money will also be lent to the union at a very concessionary rate, with a long repayment period of up to ten years. Civil servants will be expected to make contributions through deductions. Their contributions will be treated as equity and will ensure adequate capital levels of the institution. It will be vital to ensure sustainability. 

Mr Chairperson, let me provide additional information on the mechanism of accessing loans in 2013. The Government will engage an independent administrator with credible expertise in loans management, such as a commercial bank, to centrally manage these funds so that there is equitable access for all eligible employees regardless of their position and geographical location. Under the current system, we have observed that revolving funds in the various ministries, provinces and spending agencies are only accessed by personnel from the headquarter, meaning that other staff such as teachers and other Government workers, particularly in  rural areas, have no access to these funds. It is against this background that in April, 2012, the Government agreed with the various labour unions to form a Public Service Credit Union, as a vehicle that will ensure equitable access by all civil servants countrywide. 

Mr Chairperson, let me now highlight the salient features of Vote 37, Ministry of Finance. My ministry continued to pursue prudent fiscal management in the implementation of appropriate policies, programmes, strategies for sustained economic growth. 

Sir, in order to accelerate the development agenda of the country, my ministry has budgeted for a total amount of K1.3 trillion. Notable expenditure, under Vote 37, include K420.1 billion as grants to support institutions such as the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), Financial Intelligence Unit, National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) and Revenue Appeals Tribunal, to mention but a few. 

Mr Chairperson, there is a need to increasingly mobilise internal resources to promote and sustain economic growth which will translate into meaningful generation of employment opportunities, marked reduction in poverty levels and improved standard of living for our people. In this regard, the ZRA budgetary provision has increased from K266.5 billion in 2012 to K355.7 billion in 2013, representing an increment of 33 per cent. With this support, we envisage Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) to enhance resource mobilisation by about 1.1 percentage points of GDP, all above the 2012 target.

Mr Chairperson, in the area of procurement, the Government is making strides to ensure that the public sector is built on a sound procurement system that is transparent, efficient and corruption zero rated. In this regard, procurement in 2013 will be decentralised to the ministries with the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) only playing an oversight and regulatory role. Government’s desire is to see an increase in citizens’ access to public services in the most efficient manner.

Sir, K410 billion has been centrally budgeted for the employers’ share of statutory obligation for all civil servants. A further K113.4 billion has been set aside for constitutional and post holders’ personal emolument. The Government has set aside K55.2 billion for the continued roll out of the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS). This is in line with this Government’s commitment to strengthen the public financial management in the Public Service. In addition, my ministry has set aside K50 billion for the dismantling of arrears that were accumulated by government ministries prior to 2002.

Mr Chairperson, K232.9 billion is for operations in twelve departments of the ministry. The focus of these resources will be on reviewing, developing and managing economic and financial policies in order to facilitate the creation a stable macro-economic environment for enhanced economic development. 

Primary focus of the ministry in 2013 will be the development of the National Planning and Budgeting Bill. I wish to assure this House that this long over-due piece of legislation will receive high priority in the operation of my ministry. Other areas of priority in the ministry will include the strengthening of the monitoring and evaluation framework for ministries, provinces and spending agencies.

Sir, I now recommend that Vote 21 - Loans and Investments and Vote 37 - Ministry of Finance for the favourable consideration and approval of this House.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Ministry of Finance.

Sir, this is an extremely important ministry in government system.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you most sincerely for allowing me raise this point of order which I am sure is procedural. I would have attempted to raise this point of order when the hon. Minister of Finance started delivering his policy statement. Sir, let me also apologise to the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda for interrupting. It is my wish to complete this work expediently and without ignoring or mutilating procedure. Sir, I invite you to Standing Orders 115, on page 39 which says:

    “Handing in of Amendments”

Standing Orders 115 (1) reads as follows:

“Members desiring to have proposed amendments to Bills placed upon the Order Paper must hand them, fairly written and signed by them, to the Clerk or deliver them to his/her office not later than 14:30 hours on the day before that on which they are to appear.”

Mr Chairperson, yesterday, I raised a procedural point of order and indicated to you, and my fortune was that it was you who was sitting in the Chair, that this particular head had amendments that were due and that is the reason why the Executive decided to defer it and allow the Ministry of Youth and Sport head to come before it.

Mr Chairperson, I am surprised that these amendments, which were not there yesterday at 1900 hours when I raised this concern, are now in the supplement to the votes and proceedings. I do realise that they were backdated, however, the standing orders indicate clearly that they must be circulated to all hon. Members of the House and not that they should be sitting in some office. It does not matter whether they were made ten years ago, they ought to be circulated not later than 1430 hours on the day they are to appear on the order paper.

Mr Chairperson, my point of order is, would we be doing justice to our procedures if we continue ignoring the standing orders without dropping them and go ahead and deal with this very important Vote, which accommodates more than 20 per cent of our National Budget? This particular Vote will be ripe for debate tomorrow but not today. I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. The date today is 28th November, 2012. According to the notice of amendments, which I have here and which I have had in my possession, the supplement to the Votes and Procedures of Wednesday, 21st November, 2012, contains notice of amendments relating to Head 21/01 – Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance and National Planning, meaning that they were ready for debate on Wednesday, 21st November, 2012 and today is 28th November, 2012.

Secondly, there is also a supplement to the Votes and Proceedings of Wednesday 21st November, 2012 notice of amendments. This means that the particular head I am referring to is Head 37/01 was ready for debate on that date.

Now, the Standing Orders do not talk about circulation but of giving notice to the Clerk of the National Assembly, which has been complied with. The ruling therefore is that the notice of amendments have been dully circulated and in full compliance of the standing orders to which the hon. Member referred to.

I thank you.

Mr Nkombo rose.

The Deputy Chairperson: Now, the person to debate is Hon. Professor Lungwangwa.

Mr Nkombo resumed his seat.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that the Ministry of Finance is an extremely important ministry in the scheme of governancing. In fact, it ranks among the first three portfolios in governance. This ministry is the embodiment or carries our most cherished values in our national development, namely: transparency, accountability, efficiency, effectiveness, equity and zero tolerance to corruption. It is the Ministry of Finance that really ought to be the highest advocate of our most cherished values in national development. At the same time, it is the Ministry of Finance that ought to have a bird’s eye view of our national development process in the sense that it is in this ministry that our national planning process is ignited. It is also in the Ministry of Finance that the coordination of our national development efforts ought to be crystallised. It is in the Ministry of Finance that the monitoring of our development efforts ought to take place effectively. The Ministry of Finance ought to be giving guidance to other ministries in terms of what is happening in our development efforts. It is also the Ministry of Finance that ought to be mobilising resources wherever they are for our national development efforts in addition to impact assessment of our national development efforts.

Mr Chairperson, therefore, it is in the Ministry of Finance, like it happens elsewhere, that the brightest and best of our national talents ought to be in order to give our national development efforts the best available talent and quality in terms of development goals and direction. So it is extremely important that this ministry operates at the highest levels of efficiency and effectiveness.

Mr Chairperson, that having been said as a preamble to the importance or significance of the Ministry of Finance, I think it is now important for us to dwell on a few very pertinent issues concerning this Budget. In the first place, we do acknowledge that the Ministry of Finance in this Budget has been able to outline various development projects, which of course are extremely important for our national development efforts, especially in the area of infrastructure development. We do recognise that K6.6 trillion has been set aside for various physical development efforts in our nation. However, in light of what I said in my opening statements …

Ms Lubezhi: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. Please, I hope it will be on procedure. If not, you may as well not raise it but you have the Floor to do so.

Mr Lubezhi: It is on a constitutional matter, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, are hon. Members of the Executive in order to have ignored your serious ruling that they are supposed to come to the House with a statement regarding a point of order that was raised on why they have allowed the national flag with distorted colours to be displaced in this country? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. PF Members: Where!

The Deputy Chairperson: The point of order aims at reminding the Executive that a point of order had been earlier raised by the hon. Member for Namwala relating to the colours of the flags which are being sold on the streets of Lusaka and elsewhere. According to that point of order, these flags do not comply with the Armorial Ensigns Act and the ruling of the Chair was that His Honour the Vice-President should at an appropriate time come up with a statement to the House. May I just say that the Vice-President’s Office has been reminded and I know the response will be forthcoming. The office of the Clerk has already done the needful and sooner than later, that response will be made. I thank the hon. Member for the reminder.

The hon. Member for Nalikwanda may continue.

Professor Lungwangwa:  Mr Chairperson, I was saying that while we do acknowledge that the Ministry has paid a lot of attention to various infrastructure development efforts, a sum of K6.6 trillion has been set aside for that.  However, given the nature of the operations of our governing system, the Ministry has to pay a lot of attention to the problems of the challenges of bureaucracy and cumbersome procurement processes which might in a way make the absorptions of that K6.6 trillion difficult in the following year.  Such an amount of money might just become a financial ornament. We know that it is there, but the absorption capacity or the efficiency with it is absorbed may not be realised because of the inefficiency in our operational system. So, the Ministry has to pay a lot of attention to that.

In addition to that, we have a challenge where, of course, our civil servants have to wait for the Public Service credit union to be established in order to address, especially their staff welfare. That means, in the meantime, our public servants will have to be subjected to the micro-financing system that is there where, of course, they are charged in some cases well over 120 per cent interest rate. The Ministry has a challenge of finding ways and means of controlling the micro-financing problem or set up which, of course, is affecting our civil servants.

Mr Chairperson, another major challenge for the Ministry as it plays its bird’s eye view role is the challenge of modest. We have seen in this budget something that has never happened in this country where, of course, we have ministries that have come up with extremely high allocations to the Minister’s offices. For example, the Ministry of Tourism and Art that we have just finished approving, as we have noted, has an increase of K265 million this year above K800 million which is in 2012.  The Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry has a K750 million increment. It is from K950 million to K1.7 billion increment. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security has a K700 million increment. There is an increment from K700 million in 2012 to K1.4 billion in 2013. The Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection has an increment of K474 million. There is an increment from K521.6 million to K1.5 billion. The Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development has increased from K297.7 million to K665.7 million next year.  Of course, the Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Finance’s Office has an allocation of K959.9 million in 2013 and the Minister’s Office has K1.5 billion allocation. 

Sir, contrast that with other ministries. The office of the hon. Minister of Defence has reduced its 2013 Budget from K300 million to K193 million; the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, from K806 million to K397 million; and the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, from K308 million to K230 million. Other ministries have had moderate increments. For example, the Ministry of Youth and Sport has a moderate increment from K375 million to K425 million next year. The Ministry of Home Affairs had an increment from K230 million to K283.5 million; the Ministry of Gender and Child Development, from K292.9 million to K300 million; and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, from K450.3 million to K491.9 million.

Mr Chairperson, it is puzzling how, for example, an hon. Deputy Minister’s office, such as in the Ministry Finance, can have close to K1 billion while the hon. Minister of Defence has K193 million in the same year. Why are there such glaring disparities? The hon. Minister of Justice has K500 million while the hon. Minister of Defence has K193 million. Why are there such huge differences? 

 Sir, what is clear from such allocations is that some of our colleagues running ministries view this as a grand opportunity to make money, and some of this money might be made through foreign trips. We may see more and more of hon. Ministers going out of the country because they are assured of US$300,000 in their offices. Instead of concentrating on monitoring the implementation of projects and ensuring that there is efficiency in our development efforts, our colleagues will be more concerned with consumption and what they can do in order to consume K1.7 billion in one year. This is a problem and the Ministry of Finance should have provided guidance. It should have told our colleagues to be modest, instead of having such colossal amounts of money allocated to their offices. This is unacceptable. 

Mr Chairperson, how many bridges can we build out of K750 million which the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry will consume next year? Yesterday, we saw on our local news a child who drowned in Ngwerere Stream here, in Lusaka. Those people were crying for a bridge. How many bridges can we construct? There are so many children in our country who get drowned in various streams and the amount of money we need to construct bridges or culverts for them is very little. In some cases, it is even less than K100 million. 

Sir, hon. Ministers must have a conscience. Instead of having such huge amounts of money to themselves, they should think in terms of what can be done for the poor. How many boreholes can we drill in order to have clean water for our people? How many culverts, feeder roads and classrooms can we construct? This is very important. Our colleagues who are governing the country must be modest. Such colossal amounts of money can never be justified. 

There is no basis for justifying that. Within the same Government, one hon. Minister ends up with K193 million for the whole year while another ends up with K1.78 billion. What justification is there for this? An hon. Deputy Minister is getting close to K1 billion. Why is it so? These are issues that the hon. Minister of Finance must ensure that amendments are done …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Professor Lungwangwa: … otherwise, our colleagues will spend their time wondering within the country and trying to look for international meetings so that they can make money. That is unacceptable. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to make a few comments.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I know I have difficulties pronouncing names. However, he is Mr Hamududu.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, just call me Highvie, that is fine.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, as I start my debate, I think the hon. Minister of Finance, two days ago, expressed the same sentiments I have on the Budget and its effects in our country. While addressing controlling officers at Mulungushi International Conference Centre, the hon. Minister of Finance expressed frustration over the Civil Service not posting results from the money appropriated to ministries. I think all of us know the fact that there is something wrong somewhere. I think that those of us in Parliament are doing our job at this stage. We are approving the money. The money we approve has been increasing from K20.5 trillion, K27 trillion and now it is K32 trillion. However, there is no corresponding change at the grassroots. The poverty levels have remained the same, malnutrition is increasing, life expectancy is decreasing and infrastructure is dilapidated. The situation is as if there is no money being approved to make a change in the countryside. My debate will revolve round the Budget and the envisaged Planning and Budget Law.

Mr Chairperson, I think we must all agree that there is something wrong in the framework. What can we do to improve the effect of the Budget in our country? One of the solutions to this, is this Parliament. We are elected to safeguard the aspirations of the people as captured by those people who make the Budget. This Parliament must help the Executive to provide insight throughout the Budget process. This envisaged Budget Law needs to address that. We hope that when that Bill comes to Parliament, it will address the gaps that we have identified in our country and I am going to give a few examples on this.

Mr Chairperson, form the consultation, preparation, approval, implementation, reporting and review stage of the Budget, this Parliament must be involved in this process to provide insight. What is happening currently is that, at consultation level, the Zambian people from different localities express their aspirations. However, along the way, these aspirations are short-changed because the people’s representatives in Parliament are not involved. We do not want to be involved in budgeting itself, however, we must be involved at all times to over see the process because we do not want the issues that are captured in the districts to be short-changed when the Budget reaches this stage. There are many examples here. You will find that in most of the departments, the money that is allocated to their core functions is very minimal. You will find that money is allocated to things such as Events are allocated K1.5 billion and Cross cutting issues, K2 billion. These are very funny elements. This money should go to real service delivery. 

Mr Chairperson, in other countries were they have this law, these different ministries provide their budgets and these budgets are referred to the portfolio committees so they can be scrutinised on time. For example, if the Budget for the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock is presented to the Committee on Agriculture, they will interrogate the ministry and its staff. They will be asked to show the Committee the figures needed to improve the agricultural infrastructure or diversity of agriculture. If that is not done, the money will be re-aligned at that stage. I think around June/July, the portfolio Committees can seat to look to at the different budgets. 

Mr Chairperson, how can the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education roll out seven universities in a year? It is not possible. This country has taken about thirty years to build two of our prestigious universities, which is University of Zambia and Copperbelt University. It is not possible to just be naming universities. 

Sir, we are not disputing the opening of universities but there must be a procedure to follow because it involves a lot of financial outlays. If we say that we want to have universities in every province by the year 2030, we should know what we need to carry. If in every financial year we open one university, there must be order. This year alone, the Minister of Education Science, Vocational Training and Early Education would have, in consultation with the President, come and inform us what they are planning. He must show us that he will obtain the money. Today, a university in Luapula …

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: … yes, we need a university in Luapula, Western Province, etc. However, you must do what is realisable.

Mr Chairperson, by pronouncing a lot of things like universities and districts, we are committing a lot of resources and eventually, we will be unable to roll out these jobs. In this region, you cannot open five universities in one fiscal year. So, there must be order.

Now, the issue of submitting these indicative plans to the Committees is to counter-check so that you are realistic. What is happening now is that by the time we come - this is already concluded. It is difficult to move amendments at this stage but if these indicative figures from ministries are presented to the portfolio Committees of Parliament, we will have enough time to realign so that the aspirations of the people are safeguarded. After approving the Budget, again, these ministries must report to the portfolio Committees. For example, the Ministry of Science, Vocational Training and Early Education must account to the committee before coming to this House. For example, the Committees should know how many schools have been built and the progress that have been made in universities. They should know how many dams have been built by the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, using the money which they were given. However, what is happening is that the Government is not being accountable to this House. If you think that without accountability to Parliament, you are going to post results, you will not. I think for those who can see through, you are already frustrated. 

I know that His Honour the Vice-President have been reading and I appreciate your comments. The Ministry of Finance is frustrated because the system is not working. It is the framework, and that law must come. We must put a law that addresses the gaps that we have identified. We have even seen some cartoons in the newspapers insulting our civil servants. There is nothing wrong with the civil service. It is the framework. The process is as important as the product. Because of the wrong system, we are saying that civil servants are not performing. If we streamline through this law, the civil service will start performing.

I want to tell you that if these were brought to the Committees, we could quickly move some of these amendments on crosscutting issues like HIV/AIDS which have been allocated K2 billion but they want to buy vehicles. There is no explanation on Events which has been allocated K1.5 billion. When we approve, they will say that they need to buy vehicles to go and co-ordinate but the money is hidden. 

However, if these figures are coming to the Committees, this Parliament will be handy. We, who are elected by the people, want to provide an oversight so that the money that is approved this House has a real effect at the grass root. Therefore, this Parliament must be busy. We cannot be called to sit longest only when approving the Budget. The Parliamentarians must work from January to December, to provide oversight throughout because we are interested to see results.

Mr Chairperson, we are looking forward to this law and we appreciate that this law is coming to this House.

Sir, another example is the issue of districts. The President has the power by the Constitution, and he announced that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

__________

The House adjourned at 1916 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 29th November, 2012.

__________