DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 29th November, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

TRACHOMA SITUATION PRESENTATION

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I have an announcement to make. The announcement is that the Ministry of Health will make a presentation for all hon. Members of Parliament on the National Trachoma Situation. The ministry had conducted a survey on Trachoma in seventy-one districts by October, this year. The results reveal that fifty-one districts are endemic of Trachoma. The implication of this is that about eleven million of the population remain at risk of this blinding disease. The presentation will be held on Tuesday, 4th December, 2012 in the Auditorium at Parliament Buildings and it will run from 0930 hours to 1200 hours. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to attend this very important presentation.

I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

278. Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:

(a)    whether the Government was aware that a Zambian diplomat died at the Chancery of Zambia in Beijing, China, between October and November, 2012;

(b)    if so, what the cause of the death was;

    (c)    whether other embassy officials were involved in the death of the diplomat; and

    (d)    if so, what measures the Government had taken against the culprits.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr Lungu): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware that a Zambian diplomat by the name of Nyoka Chiimba, Second Secretary Trade, based at the mission in Beijing in the People’s Republic of China, fell ill while at the Chancery on 3rd October, 2012. The officer was then rushed to the hospital. Unfortunately, he died on the way to the hospital.

Sir, according to the medical report that was obtained by the mission, the cause of death was high blood pressure related. No embassy officials were involved in the death of the said diplomat, as the officer died of a natural cause. As stated above, the death was not caused by fellow officers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that answer. During the findings about the circumstances that led to the death of Mr Nyoka Chiimba, did the Ministry of Foreign Affairs actually establish that, on that fateful night, there was a party at the Chancery and there was a lot of imbibing of alcohol? Can the hon. Minister also confirm that some Zambian girls who are pursuing studies in China were at the party held at the offices of the Zambian Embassy in China?

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Lubinda): Mr Speaker, the information we have is that the late Mr Nyoka Chiimba was at the Chancery in the company of colleagues. As to whether they were drinking or not, that has not been brought to our attention. We asked our Ambassador to China to give us a full report, but there was no mention whatsoever about consumption of alcohol at the Chancery in the report.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether this person was a new recruit to the embassy and if he was tested for any substances in his blood system?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House and Hon. Muntanga that Mr Nyoka Chiimba was appointed as Second Secretary Trade way before the PF Government came into office. Secondly, the death certificate that was issued by the Chinese authorities indicated that Mr Chiimba died of a high blood pressure-related condition and there was no mention of whether or not there were any traces of alcohol in his blood.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that we lost one of our officers at this particular embassy. I would like the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to confirm the allegations that this particular officer died as a result of taking one of the sexual enhancing drugs in China.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, the question raised by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu refers to an allegation and, I am afraid, I am not in any position to confirm or deny such allegations. Speaking on behalf of the Government, I will stick to the information that is provided to us through authentic sources. In this particular case, we have a certificate of death issued by the authorities in China that certified Mr Nyoka Chiimba dead. The certificate does not make reference to the ingestion of any substances. It simply refers to the fact that the person died of high blood pressure-related conditions.

I thank you, Sir.

BASIC SCHOOL TEACHERS IN MULOBEZI

279. Mr Sililo (Mulobezi) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education how many teachers were at the following basic schools in Mulobezi as of 31st July, 2012:

(a)Sejamba;

(b)Kasompa;

(c)Kazuzi;

(d)Tukongote;

(e)Samisisi;

(f)Sibalu; and

(g)Sibwaulu.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

Mr Mabumba: … the schools mentioned had the following staffing levels:

On the Establishment (July, 2012)    Recruited (August, 2012)

Sejamba    5            0
Kasompe    5            0
Kazuzi    2            2
Tukongote    4            1
Samisisi    2            0
Sibala    3            1
Sibwaulu    3    

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sililo: Mr Speaker, has the hon. Minister ever visited these schools?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, not personally. However, Hon. P. Ngoma recently toured the Western Province, but I am not so sure if he visited the schools in question.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

PSV DRIVERS LICENCES

280. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication how many drivers, countrywide, held Public Service Vehicle (PSV) drivers licences from 1stJanuary, 2008 to 31st December, 2011, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Dr Mwali): Mr Speaker, in 2008, there were 14,934 …

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Let us maintain order!

Dr Mwali: … drivers with PSV licences while, in 2009, they were 15,356. In 2010, there were 16,394 and, in 2011, we had 17,897 drivers with PSV licences.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, despite the high figures given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, the rural community has difficulties in accessing PSV drivers licences because of the tedious process of accessing the licences. When does the ministry intend to help the rural community by decentralising the process of accessing the licences in question?

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, admittedly, most of the districts are not covered by the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) but, every quota, RTSA conducts mobile examinations and tries, as much as possible, to reach some of the remotest places.

I thank you, Sir.

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MOTION

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE  APPOINTED TO SCRUTINISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENT OF MRS ROLLEN KWAAMBWA MUKANDA TO SERVE AS A COMMISSIONER OF THE ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION (ACC)

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mrs Rollen Kwaambwa Mukanda to serve as a commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) for the Second Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 28th November, 2012.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Mumba (Mambilima): I beg to second the Motion, Mr Speaker.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, your Committee was privileged to scrutinise the Presidential appointment of Mrs Rollen Kwaambwa Mukanda to serve as a commissioner of the ACC. The nominee’s name was presented to the National Assembly of Zambia for ratification pursuant to paragraph 2 (3) of the Schedule to the Anti-Corruption Act No. 3 of 2012.

Sir, may I begin by stating that, in view of the important role played by the ACC in spearheading the fight against corruption, your Committee resolved that only a competent and diligent person of unquestionable integrity, eminence and sound character should serve as a commissioner of the ACC. In addition, your Committee resolved that the nominee must possess professional qualifications and experience that will enhance the fight against corruption.

Mr Speaker, in order to establish the suitability of the nominee, your Committee invited the security wings of the Government, Zambia National Women’s Lobby (ZNWL), Human Rights Commission (HRC), Transparency International Zambia (TIZ), Foundation for Democratic Process (FODEP) and church mother bodies to appear before it to give both oral and written testimony about the nominee. All the State security wings informed your Committee that a search of their records had revealed that there were no adverse reports against the nominee in relation to criminal activities, drug trafficking, money laundering, drug abuse and corrupt practices. Further, all the witnesses supported the appointment of Mrs Rollen Kwaambwa Mukanda to serve as a commissioner of the ACC.

Mr Speaker, the nominee is a qualified agriculturalist with vast experience in both the public and private sectors. In 2004, she was appointed Technical Co-ordinator of the Agri-Business component in the then Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. In 2006, she became Technical Co-ordinator as a Consultant in the Policy and Planning Department in the then Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. In 2007, she left the Civil Service to join the Zambia National Women’s Lobby as Executive Director. She held this position until May, 2012. Currently, the nominee is a freelance Consultant in Agri-business and Gender Development. 

In the various portfolios she held, the nominee distinguished herself as a dedicated and decisive person of high integrity and a team player. During her tenure at the Zambia National Women’s Lobby, the nominee conducted various training workshops and civil education programmes in communities sensitising people on electoral corruption. Further, the nominee attended various local and international fora at which she advocated for women’s participation in decision making. Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that the nominee’s career has given her wide experience to serve effectively as a Commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission. In addition, the nominee possesses personal attributes which give your Committee confidence that she will be able to perform her duties with diligence and commitment. 

Mr Speaker, you may, however, wish to note that the nominee has an immense task ahead of her. This is largely because she is being appointed to the commission at a time when it is confronted with numerous challenges. Among the challenges facing the commission is the public perception that the fight against corruption is selective and targeted at former political leaders and public officers while the rampant corruption at lower levels goes unnoticed and largely unattended to.  Another perception is that the commission is not independent from political interference. These perceptions tend to erode public confidence in the commission and need to be adequately addressed if the commission is to succeed in its fight against corruption. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, taking into account these challenges and the high incidences of corruption in the country, your Committee noticed that the commission has a huge task at its hand to perform this task efficiently and effectively. The commission requires hand working, principled and decisive individuals.  It is, therefore, gratifying to note that the nominee possesses all these attributes. Further, your Committee is pleased that the nominee has assured it of her full commitment to the fight against corruption.

Sir, in recommending the ratification of the nominee in her appointment, your Committee wishes to draw your attention to some of the observations it made during the scrutiny process. Your Committee observes that there is need to widen the selection process and raise the bar when scrutinising presidential appointments. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government considers making the process more competitive by advertising the positions or in the alternative recommending more than one name to the National Assembly for ratification. This would greatly assist your Committees to recommend the most suitable person for ratification by the House and at the same time provide an equal opportunity to eligible persons.

Sir, your Committee also observes that while the National Assembly is involved in the ratification of presidential appointments, and goes to great lengths to scrutinise and ascertain the suitability of the appointees, some appointments are revoked by the appointing authority at will. This creates insecurity for persons appointed to these offices and may affect their capacity to carry out their functions independently and effectively.  In this regard, your Committee recommends that all presidential appointees whose appointments are made subject to ratification by the National Assembly should enjoy security of tenure. 

Mr Speaker, this notwithstanding, your Committee after due and thorough evaluation of the written and oral evidence presented to it by the witnesses and the interview with the nominee is of the view that the nominee is suitably qualified to serve in the position she has been nominated for appointment. Your Committee, therefore, urges the House to ratify the presidential appointment of Mrs Rollen Kwaambwa Mukanda to serve as a Commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission.

In conclusion, I wish to record your Committee’s indebtedness and gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for according it the opportunity to serve on this important Select Committee. I also thank all the stakeholders that appeared before your Committee and contributed to its work. Gratitude also goes to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the services rendered to your Committee.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Mumba: Mr Speaker, now.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to second the motion before the House. 

Sir, I note that the Chairperson, as mover of the motion, has sufficiently addressed the salient issues contained in your Committee’s report. In addition, I would like to believe that all hon. Members took time to read your Committee’s report. In this case, I will just say a few words in seconding the motion before the House.

In support of the motion, allow me to add that based on the information submitted to your Committee by the witnesses that appeared before it, the nominee, Mrs Rollen Kwaambwa Mukanda, is a person of integrity, mature, hardworking, experienced and qualified to serve as a Commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission. Sir, the House will agree with me that the nominee’s suitability to serve as a Commissioner is evident from her curriculum vitae appended to your Committee’s report which attest to her experience and competence to serve as a Commissioner of the Anti-Corruption Commission. Sir, the appointment of the nominee will add value to the Anti-Corruption Commission. In view of this, I call upon all hon. members to support Mrs Rollen Kwaambwa Mukanda’s appointment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba: Lastly, I sincerely wish to thank the mover of this motion, the hon. Member for Kasempa, Mr Pande, MP, for the efficient manner in which he, as Chairperson, guided the deliberations of your Committee and all the members of your Committee for their hard work during the discharge of your Committee’s task.

Sir, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament for the wholesome support for the ratification of Mrs Rollen Kwaambwa Mukanda.

Thank you very much, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
VOTE 21 – (Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance – K6,629,527,624,030)  and Vote 37 – (Ministry of Finance – 1,328,654,782,732).
(Consideration resumed)
Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, yesterday, I was almost concluding when business was adjourned. The issue I raised in my conclusion was that the Government must subject itself to parliamentary oversight. This envisaged planning and budget law must ensure that there is proper parliamentary oversight throughout the stages of the Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, in my conclusion, let me raise another issue. All ministries, by law, must submit annual work plans so that they are judged against those work plans. For example, from the time of Hon. Professor Lungwangwa in the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, we had made considerable progress because of that approach. All ministries in this envisaged law must be compelled to produce annual work plans that will state clearly what they are going to do instead of letting us continue guessing. It will also save us from a lot of unplanned pronouncements. 

Mr Chairperson, in this vein, I want to urge this Government to protect the President. Let me give an example. Already, in this Budget, there is a K200 billion budgeted for the envisaged new districts. I want to tell you that the existing districts are in deplorable state. It is unwise at this stage to come up with new districts when the current ones are in a deplorable state. With that K200 billion, we could have rolled out a 10 km tarmac in some towns. If you put 10 km tarmac in Samfya, Monze or Kalabo, these towns will change. Right now, there are over twenty new districts that have been announced. The Budget cannot accommodate that way of doing things. We are not against the opening up of new districts, but can it be done systematically because we have little fiscal space. 

Mr Chairperson, the President must be protected. We agree with him that we need more districts, but we must all be aware that resources are limited. We do not agree with the number of districts that the President has announced. He announces districts even when they are not catered for in the Budget. This is tempting the Government to have a very huge supplementary budget which will be brought here for us to regularize it. Very soon, there will be a long term overrun on the Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, the pronouncements made by the President are a danger to the Budget. They include pronouncements such as the creation and construction of universities.  Let us put up a standard. For example, we can say that we want to have one university per province in the long run. What happened in Muchinga is not correct. You cannot have two universities in Muchinga. Everyone here knows, even those who are shouting, that it is not right. Yes, we need universities in Muchinga, Western, North-Western, Northern and Luapula provinces. We have nothing against that, but let us also look at the fiscal space that we have. There must be a committee which can be planning that in the next 15 to 30 years, we will be producing a university every financial year. Otherwise, with the commitments that the President has put across, very soon we will fail to approve the Budget.

Mr Chairperson, the districts must be preceded by a delimitation commission. There must be underlying reasons to pronounce a district such as the population and economic activities. You do know that you can win elections if you say that when I come into power I will put a university in every district, but that undertaking is not feasible. People will be excited, but we must be responsible enough to tell the people what is doable.

When the President came here, he told us to allow parliamentarians to talk. Please, send the message to him. We have talked. Those pronouncements are a danger because they cannot be accommodated with the current resource envelop. For example, in Kabwe, there are two universities. These are Mulungushi and Nkrumah. There must be one university like Mulungushi and Kwame Nkrumah must just be a School of Education under the university because just in Kabwe, there will be two superstructures. That can be very expensive because both need senates, councils and chancellors. Doing things that way is very expensive. 

Even here in Lusaka, the School of Agriculture at the University of Zambia must go to Palabana and the School of Education to Chalimbana. We do not need the University of Chalimbana and so on and so forth. The superstructures alone are too costly to run. Therefore, can we have a simple structure? On the Copperbelt, we should have the Copperbelt University and then have satellite campuses. Copperbelt Secondary Teacher’s College (COSETCO) can be the University of Technology. Let us be careful. Otherwise the future Government will not cope and may have to downsize. If a new Government came into power tomorrow, it will tell you that we will have one university each for Muchinga and Central provinces. 

Mr Chairperson, we are not against the idea of universities, but we will be littering qualifications that have no value. With this kind of spread, you will not produce the right qualifications. After all, this country is in need of artisans and technicians. Producing so many graduates is not a solution. Right now, there are enough graduates on the street. Therefore, can we have committees to come up with a clear road map on the universities and the districts so that we can proceed in an orderly manner, otherwise we are making my uncle have even higher blood pressure. Let him relax a bit, raise money and not spread resources too thinly on the ground. Most of you are failing to be honest with the President and to tell him the truth. Please, learn to tell the President the truth.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Those pronouncements are wrong. I am telling him on your behalf. 

Mr Chairman, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala Central): Mr Speaker, I am honoured to have this opportunity to debate this very important Motion on behalf of the people of Mbala Central. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to start by mentioning that I appreciate the challenges that the Ministry of Finance had to go through to develop this Budget. I realise that there are institutional rigidities that cannot be changed overnight in the way the Yellow Book is prepared. I am particularly referring to the fact that most of the funds in the Yellow Book are already designated as RDCs expenditure which is not developmental. 

Sir, page 19 of the Yellow Book shows that 57 per cent of the Budget will go to development activities. This implies that the remaining 43 per cent of the K32 trillion will go to operational costs of the Budget.

Mr Chairperson, I want to mention that this is a historical problem. It has not only surfaced in the current Government. It has been there for many years. I recall that the last time there was a major overhaul of the structure of the Yellow Book was in the late 1990s with a team at the Ministry of Finance comprising people like Hon. Penza, Professor Mweene and other experts who were engaged by one of our donor nations to do this work. That is when activity-based budgeting was introduced. Since then, the Yellow Book has remained, basically, the same, and this means that every Government and new team of hon. Ministers has had to deal with the same restrictions that are in the Yellow Book.

Mr Chairperson, there is a challenge of translating manifestoes of different Governments into specific achievements in the Yellow Book. If you linked the manifestoes and speeches, such as the President’s and the hon. Minister of Finance’s speeches of various Governments, including the current one, you would see that there is an element of sleeping on the job by the politicians. As I mentioned earlier, this is a problem that has been there in different Governments. There is very little linkage between the speeches that have been given in Parliament by both His Excellency the President, and the hon. Minister of Finance, and what we see in the Yellow Book. There is a very serious shortfall. 

Mr Chairperson, I sympathise that the restrictions that are already in the Yellow Book may have made it difficult for Government officials, particularly the politicians, to ensure that all their plans and promises are taken care of in the Yellow Book. I know that, in the past, to make sure that manifestoes and promises were addressed in the Yellow Book, some hon. Ministers used to carry professionals with them to their offices. I know that some hon. Ministers hired experts to work with because there will be no direct translation of the manifestoes and promises into the Yellow Book done by staff in the ministries. 

I also know that, sometimes, we have blamed civil servants and attempted to replace some of them. However, it has not been their fault.  They are non-partisan. We should think about the possibility of hiring partisan-professionals to accompany hon. Ministers when they take their positions in the Cabinet so that the partisan professionals, in this case, PF professionals can help the hon. Ministers to make sure that their promises are included in the Yellow Book. Because our civil servants are non-partisan, they have their own established way of doing things which, sometimes, might not be directly linked to what the Government in power wants.

Mr Chairperson, I have some concerns from the people of Mbala about the way revenue has been raised and how it is meant to be spent in 2013. There is a concern I want to share regarding Pay As You Earn (PAYE). The figures in the hon. Minister of Finance’s speech indicates that PAYE is 21 per cent of the total tax revenue. This is the highest single source of tax in this country. Five hundred thousand Zambians, who are in formal employment, are contributing the highest tax revenue to the nation. This is a heavy burden on them. It also implies that we are not necessarily a copper-driven economy. The impression has been that our economy is driven by the copper industry, but it is not. Our economy is driven by the PAYE revenue because it is the highest. There is a need for us to diversify the raising of revenue to the mines and other areas so that this heavy burden on our few formally-employed Zambians can be reduced. A quick calculation shows that every formally-employed Zambian is contributing about K1 million per month to the tax revenue of this country.

Hon. Opposition Member: Lower taxes, iyo.

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, compared to PAYE, mineral royalty tax, which is money from the mines, is just 8.2 per cent of the total tax revenue. You will be surprised to learn that finance from donors is five times higher than the contribution from mineral royalty. Something is wrong about the way we are raising our revenue. Does this not explain why, despite a lot of copper production and high copper prices, our kwacha is still struggling against foreign currencies?

Mr Chairperson, I also want to share my concern about the fuel levy. The revenue that is raised from the fuel levy, which is K659 billion, is too low. The engineers estimate that this money is equivalent to resurfacing only about 500km of roads per year, and upgrading of 80km of roads from gravel to tarmac.  

Mr Chairperson, foreign trucks enter Zambia when they have already been fuelled. Since they do not buy fuel in our country, yet they are ruining our roads without paying the fuel levy, could it not be that we need a toll service for foreign trucks? Can we continue to implement the fuel levy on domestic vehicles only? This is the question I would like the hon. Minister of Finance to ponder on.

Mr Chairperson, I also have a concern about the measures that were put in place to create employment in terms of rationalisation of tax revenue. This is on page 16 of the Budget speech. A very thorough study of this part of the speech indicates that these measures of rationalisation of tax incentives only support the importation of machinery. There is no measure that deals with making imported finished products expensive, and local products more competitive. We need to make imported goods expensive. The importation of cheap machinery that you have provided for in the Budget will still not help the goods to be produced from this machinery to sell because no measures have been implemented to discourage the importation of goods.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Chairperson, I also want to share a concern regarding expenditure, which does not appear to be efficient. It appears that we are spending too much money on non-productive activities. The cost of RDCs, as I mentioned earlier, is too high and measures need to be taken to reduce this from 42.2 per cent to something much lower. Despite 58 per cent going to poverty reduction programmes (PRP) type of activities, most of this money is still re-converted during the year into RDC type of expenditure in terms of foreign trips, a lot of imprest and, indeed, very non-productive expenditure. This means that the actual trickle down of the funds to the Zambian people as benefits tend to be much lower than the 58 per cent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simfukwe: Sir, on the same issue of expenditure, I want to express concern about the budget for the Ministry of Finance, which is, basically, an administrative unit, not a productive one. There is K1.33 trillion or 4.13 per cent of the Budget which has been assigned to the ministry. This is a lot of money for a ministry that is not like the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry or Ministry of Health, and which is not a productive ministry. The allocation to this ministry is almost the entire mineral royalty income. The figure has even increased by K200 billion from last year. Of course, this is not a phenomenon particular to this Government or for this year. It has been a problem for many years. One would wonder whether the politicians in the Government have been sleeping on their job to allow so much money to be spent on administrative activities of one ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I want to compare, very quickly, how much we have allocated to the Ministry of Finance with what has gone to other ministries. The Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health has K1.5 trillion. That is a huge and very important social ministry. However, it has got almost the same allocation as the Ministry of Finance, which is, if you look at the Heads, purely administrative. The Ministry of Health is almost allocated the same money as the Ministry of Finance. Look at the structure of the Ministry of Health. It goes down to the grassroots, to the lowest community members, yet it is getting almost the same amount of money as a ministry that is responsible for disbursing funds? The Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock is getting almost the same amount of money, but look at the difference in their functions. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing is getting 2.2 per cent compared, yet it has a more complex structure. In the Yellow Book, the Ministry of Finance has nothing to do with productive activities. As for the provinces, 0.17 per cent is what they received, which is K55 billion per province.

Mr Chairperson, all of us, politicians in here, are sleeping on our jobs. I even hear some of us strongly defending this. They are defending failure to deliver on their promises. We need to re-structure the Yellow Book to deliver these funds to the Zambian people.

Sir, the public servants are waiting for you to give them guidelines. If you do not, they will continue to pocket or melt this money into activities that have nothing to do with the Zambian people.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Well done!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, I wish to support the Vote.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mooya: Mr Chairperson, I remember, in 2007, I requested the then Ministry of Finance to transfer back certain projects under this ministry. These are projects to do with the road infrastructure, which are under the Ministry of Finance in the Yellow Book. Until 2006, these projects were under the then Ministry of Works and Supply, now called Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. It makes sense that these projects come under the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. Therefore, let me, once more, appeal to the PF Government to transfer back some of these projects to this ministry.

Mr Chairperson, one gets into two minds whether to discuss bridges and roads now or wait for the relevant ministry. You may want to go deep into technical issues, but this is under the Ministry of Finance. So, my appeal to the PF Government is to transfer back these projects where they belong. I counted a number of projects in the Yellow Book, about six, that have nothing to do with finance. Please, let us do the right thing.

Mr Chairperson, secondly, let me talk about the public procurement reforms that the hon. Minister discussed in his speech. Last week, there was a function at which standard bidding documents were being given to contractors. However, my appeal is that we should have a full function at the end of December because we are told that, by 1st January, 2013, these reforms will be fully-implemented.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Sir, I am not happy with this way of doing things in bits and pieces. I was surprised when that function took place because I expected it to take place on 31st December, 2012 or 1st January, 2013, when we will have full reforms, not these documents. Although the documents are part of that reform, we require the full implementations of the reforms.

Mr Chairperson, I note that there was the African Road Maintenance Funds Association General Conference held in Livingstone at which thirty-one countries attended and it was resolved that the performance-based roads contracts approach to road maintenance be adopted.  I am happy that Zambia was praised for taking up this approach. I followed their discussion on-line in Choma.

Sir, I raised the issue of the maintenance of roads at the beginning because it is important. The Presidential Speech did not have anything on maintenance of roads. However, you can see how important this issue is. According to the resolution that was passed, maintenance of roads is important.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson, for example, if you maintain tarred roads for the first fifteen years, you will be able to save a lot. It costs about US$60,000 to regularly maintain a kilometre of road. However, if that is not done regularly and the road is not maintained for fifteen years, then it will cost US$200,000. Similarly, when it comes to gravel roads, it is cheaper to do maintenance works. If you do not, by the time you realise that the road should be maintained, it will be very costly. 

Mr Chairperson, this was a very important conference. One issue that was discussed was the moving of the Road Development Agency (RDA) to State House. It made me wonder how these thirty-one countries looked at Zambia because the RDA was originally meant to be autonomous. It was not supposed to have anything to do with State House. So, I am wondering what impression of us they have. This is the reason I have been advocating for the RDA to go back where it belongs. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to discuss the issue of weighbridges although it is supposed to be discussed under the Ministry of Works, Supply and Communication. It wrongly appears under the Ministry of Finance. I am aware that the Kafue Weighbridge was commissioned a few days ago. I am, therefore, asking the PF Government to have the political will to utilise that facility. There should be no exemptions. We have a lot of vehicles on our roads carrying abnormal loads. This reminds me of the cold box that was transferred in 2007 all the way from Livingstone to Chingola, leaving a trail of destruction. It weighed 140 tonnes and had about 160 wheels. Some of us saw the destruction, and I hope that the Government will not allow such vehicles to use our roads again.

Mr Chairperson, like I said before, what I wanted to discuss under the Ministry of Works, Supply and Communication is in the Ministry of Finance and it is too technical. I wanted to face the hon. Minister of Works, Supply and Communication directly.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
 Therefore, I would like the PF Government to know that it is weakening the Ministry of Works, Supply and Communication. If you were to look through the Yellow Book, you will see that institutions such as the RDA and National Council for Construction (NCC) appear under the Ministry of Finance. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah!

Mr Mooya: What is going on? Let them be taken back to the Ministry of Works and Supply so that we can freely debate these issues. I really wanted to go into detail regarding most of these projects that appear under the Ministry of Finance and I hope I will be given the time to delve deeper when we debate the Vote for the Ministry of Works, Supply and Communication.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this important policy statement by the hon. Minister of Finance as regards loans and investment. This is a key ministry, as it is responsible for mobilising resources both internally and externally and ensuring that the resources are used for the intended purpose. 

 Mr Chairperson, let me begin by appreciating the good intentions of the hon. Minister of Finance, especially with regard to an improved fiscal framework and, particularly, the tax administration. The hon. Minister of Finance has indicated how the Government intends to expedite the issue of infrastructure development which would help to reduce the divide between the urban and rural areas.

However, there are some serious concerns which other hon. Members have raised, especially in relation to the issue of domestic resource mobilisation. We all know that the burden of contributing to resource mobilisation is mostly on employees who are in formal employment. Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE) outstrips what is collected from the mining sector.

Sir, the risk is that if you are ambitious, like the PF Government seems to be, in a bid to improve the livelihood of the majority of people in Zambia and if you are not able to mobilise domestic resources, you will resort to external borrowing. External borrowing may look easier and the environment may seem conducive to mobilise the 750 Eurobond, however, what matters is how you are going to use those resources. If you are not careful, instead of ensuring that the resources you have mobilised locally are used to fund inclusive economic growth and poverty reduction, you will end up subsidising the multinational companies such as the mining sector, as the case is at the moment.

Sir, if one was to do a critical analysis of the US$750 million US Bond, they will see that the bulk of that money is going to subsidise the mines, and yet that is where we should be drawing sufficient domestic revenue. I agree with the hon. Minister of Finance when he talks about improved tax administration. However, we still know what needs to be done. Where will the money to build three universities in a year come from? They will resort to borrowing poorly-conceived international engagements that will lead to serious harm in the future. 

Sir, we have seen how Zambia got trapped and became a debt-ridden nation. The civil society led by Cardinal Medardo Mazombwe, under the Jubilee Campaign 2000, fault very hard to free Zambia from the external debt. Sooner or later, we shall see ourselves getting trapped in serious external debt again. How else are you going to finance those ambitious programmes you keep pronouncing everyday without adequate information on the resources that are available? It does not work like that. The challenge we have is to ensure that we cut our suit based on the cloth that we have. 

Sir, the other issue I would like to talk about is with regard to external borrowing to finance our development programmes. As other hon. Members mentioned earlier, the financing of our development programmes such as infrastructure, the health sector and education is from co-operating partners. The bulk of our domestic resources are what is used for Recurrent Departmental Charges (RDCs). When you look in the Yellow Book, you will clearly see that the bulk of the internal resources are, indeed, going to be used for that. The external resources, including the US$750 million, will be used for infrastructure development in those sectors I earlier mentioned. 

Mr Chairperson, however, the challenge is to ensure that you put in place inclusive economic growth as well as poverty reduction by putting the money where it matters. How does someone say that a situation has never happened where farmers are not been paid when farmers have been sleeping at the banks for months? How does it feel when you read that pupils in Lubansenshi have gone to catch caterpillars because they do not see the incentives of education? How do I feel as an hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi Constituency in Luwingu? It is very painful. This is because we are failing to ensure that we have redistributive policies in place to strength the institution so that the funds that are meant for poverty reduction programmes are, indeed, reinforced and protected in order to be used for the intended purposes. You should free the people. You should create the opportunities for people to take themselves out of poverty. Zambians have suffered and, slowly, they are beginning to lose hope. People wanted change, but what has changed? Everything is still the same. It is very disappointing to hear someone say that farmers have been paid when they have not. Farmers in Lubansenshi Constituency have been spending nights at the bank. You should …

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Please, give him a chance to debate. Address the Chair, hon. Member.

Mr Mucheleka: … create linkages between the urban economy and the rural economy. You can do that by ensuring that you put money where it matters. When I looked at the budget for the Northern Province, I failed to find any resources meant for development programmes. Almost 80 per cent of those funds are going to be used for RDCs. How much will be left for development programmes? You should build bridges so that people can get out of poverty. You should create economic opportunities for the people in the rural areas. You can do that by ensuring that the 750 Eurobond that you have borrowed is used to create an enabling environment for the private sector. This will enable the rural people to participate in the economic activities as opposed to subsidising the mining sector. 

Sir, as I said, the bulk of that money is going to be used to create railway infrastructure, but who is going to be using it? I know that you want to be transporting copper, which is a very good idea. At the same time, what are those mining companies benefiting the country?  They are not contributing to tax sufficiently. Hon. Mwalimu Simfukwe mentioned, the mining sector’s contribution to the Budget is 80 per cent. Actually, it is less than 5 per cent, and yet we are saying that copper is our golden egg. Which golden egg are we talking about when we cannot benefit from it? 

When you go to the mining townships, the miners’ wives are all traders because their husbands cannot bring in sufficient resources to look after their households. You can see what is happening on the mines. I get disappointed with some of my fellow hon. Members of Parliament from the mining townships who are supposed to be supporting us when we call for improved taxation on the mining sector to say that all is well. All is not well. 

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, the Ministry of Finance is weak because the systems are not in place. As we have seen in the Auditor-General’s Report, the bulk of the money that is meant for poverty reduction programmes is the money that is subject to a lot of misuse and misappropriation. It is very sad to note that the hon. Ministers that are supposed to be helping the President to deliver are the same ones who are trying to undermine him by fighting to see who should take over when someone is still in office. It makes sad reading.

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: Sir, it does not work like that. You are supposed to be strengthening the institutions. This is why we say that you should bring the Budget Act to Parliament so that it creates room for hon. Members of Parliament to provide oversight on the Executive. We want to know how the Budget is, indeed, being used as a tool for development. 

As Hon. Hamududu said yesterday, when we have the Budget Act in place, it should be able to tell us how much money is going to be used for the rural sector. If you bring the budget to the Committees, for example, and there is nothing for irrigation and other programmes under agriculture, we will reject it. People are slowly losing hope. You should create an opportunity to free Zambians from poverty. 

Sir, I am aware that the hon. Minister of Finance was at the fourth high-level meeting in Botswana where we talked about development effectiveness, especially when we are borrowing funds. What is the outcome? We should be talking about proper results, increased accountability and transparency. If Parliament is involved in debt contraction, when you talk about US$750 million, we shall be able to ask you what you are going to use it for. If you are going to use it to subsidise the mining companies, we will not accept that. We would rather you ensure that the money goes to improve the health sector and the roads in the rural areas. We are not talking about trunk roads. We are talking about feeder roads and access roads so that farmers can have access to the markets and they can get out of poverty. Does this not worry you?

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members on my right, when you ask the person on the Floor to address the Chair, much as you are help the Chair, you are actually making the work of the Chair difficult because the hon. Member debating is merely looking at you, but addressing the Chair. So, just listen. 

Continue, hon. Member.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) had stopped listening. We told them to create the Ministry of Rural Development, but they did not listen. In Bemba, there is a saying that goes, ‘Mpyanango a pyana na mabala’. This means that this blame game is over. You should take responsibility. 

Let me urge the hon. Minister of Finance, who I know the President listens to rather than the other people that are fighting to take over when he is there …

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: … to ask him to create a Ministry of Rural Development so that we can know how our people in the rural areas can be able to participate in the economic growth that we are talking about.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, there is need to strength certain institutions. Parliament needs to have a very strong oversight role in regard to the way the Budget is executed. That is why we are talking about the aspect of putting place the Budget Act.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: In Kenya, fifteen per cent of the country’s resources in a year go to the rural areas. In Zambia, we have seen that less than one per cent as my colleague mentioned is goes to the local authorities. What development will you talk about when the situation is like that and how are you going to reduce poverty? You will end up like the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government that had stopped listening. People are losing hope. Free the people and create opportunities for them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for giving me this opportunity. There are no fireworks.

Laughter

 I would like to start by acknowledging Hon. Mooya’s debate on the alignment of this particular Vote. This Vote, loans and investments, belongs to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. I do not understand why the technocrats in the Ministry of Finance have insisted that we need to move it to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. In the past, the former hon. Minister of Finance actually agreed to move this particular Vote to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication.

Mr Chairperson, those that understand this particular Vote will be in agreement with me that when we discuss the issue of roads, we want people that can give factual answers. We do not want to discuss certain issues with people who do not understand them well. We want to discuss with people that will give proper answers.

Mr Chairperson, I have noticed that, Vote 20/01 loans and Investments, has been moved to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Therefore, they should also move this particular Vote on infrastructure to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication because that is where it belongs. The way things are being done will make those of us who understand these issues get confused. When the works and supply Vote will come, it will be difficult for us to discuss that Vote. What will we discuss about, when the roads and other issues have already passed? 

In the past, when I was an hon. Minister of Works and Supply, the then hon. Minister of Finance, Hon. Magande, agreed to move this Vote. The problem was with the technocrats who were against that plan. Hon. Sampa, we are not politicking here. It is important that this particular Vote on infrastructure should be taken to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication.

Mr Chairperson, when I looked at the funding in this particular Vote, I was wondering whether there is another budget on infrastructure. I am completely lost. According to this budget, works on the Pedicle Road have been allocated K20,000,000,000. What can this amount do …

Hon. Opposition Member: Just imagine.

Mr Simbao: … to seventy kilometres of the road. If you keep on allocating such kind of amounts, you will leave that office and the construction of that road would still not be done.K20,000,000,000 can only make four kilometres or less of a tarred road. I really do not know whether there is another budget for that in this budget. For a serious Government that wants to give the people of Luapula this road, it can only take one and half year for the construction of this seventy kilometres road. However, with this kind of funding of K20,000,000,000, it will take over five years to construct that road. I am wondering whether there is another budget that will address this particular problem. When I looked at the amount of money of K15,000,000,000 which has been allocated to the bottom roads, I thought that maybe there is another budget …

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I do not normally rise on points of order, but I would like to find out if the hon. Member is in order to insinuate that K20,000,000,000 is the only money that has been allocated to works on the Pedicle Road, when that is an on going project which is supposed to be completed by 2015. Is he in order to continue debating in that manner? I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Member take that point of order into account as he debates.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I am sure the hon. Member has a Yellow Book and can see that there is only K20,000,000,000 has been allocated to works on the Pedicle Road. If he knows of another budget where there is some other money,  he should say because I do not know about it. I am talking about the 2013 Budget that we want to approve at the moment. If this is the only money that is there, then the people of Luapula will only see the construction of a four kilometre road in 2013. They must understand that fact very clearly.

Mr Kapeya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised. I will grant you that point of order, but sometimes I do not allow points of order because they make us not to progress as we should. In any case, as the hon. Minister winds up, he will address some of the issues that you are raising as points of order.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Senga Hill, Hon. Kapembwa Simbao, in order to keep on debating on an issue which he claims that he does not know about. I need your serious ruling.

Hon. PF Member: Ekale panshi.

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Member continue debating. 

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, according to this Yellow Book, works on the Mongu/Kalabo Road have not been funded. The people of the Western Province will not get their road. Next year, 2013, there is no funding for the Mongu/Kalabo road. That is why I am saying that it is important to liaise with the people in the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication and find out whether the construction of this road was started. If it was started, then why is there no money allocated for this road in next year’s budget. Where is the money that will be used to continue the construction of this road? We want to know that. I am sure the people in the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication know the reason why because it is their job. That is why we are saying that this particular Vote should be moved to that ministry so that when their time comes they can give us the right answers.

Mr Chairperson, when President Sata came into Office, I thought what had happened was the will of God so that he could do what we probably failed to do. When he came in power he assured us that he would ensure the construction of the Mbala/Nakonde Road which has been abandoned for the last forty-six years.

Mr Chairperson …

Mr Muntanga: What has happened?

Mr Simbao: There is no funding for this road.

Laughter 

Mr Simbao: I want to say something at this point and I hope that the people of Northern Province will hear me. 

Sir, there has always been this feeling among the people of the Northern Province, especially among the Mambwes, that they are second class citizens. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: This particular road is very important for the people of the Northern Province. It is the only road that passes through the entire Mambwe area, from Mbala to Nakonde. 

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: Order!

You have your point of order. 

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, it is not my wish to rise on a point of order and waste time. However, I thank you for according me the opportunity. 

Sir, it is not right that as we debate here we are not factual. We must be factual. What Yellow Book are you using? Sir, the Yellow Book shows that in 2012, the Kalabo/Mongu Road was allocated K311 billion which has not yet exhausted. How can the hon. Member go on record and portray that this Government is not caring? The money for the Mongu/Kalabo Road is there. Please, read your Yellow Book. Sir, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

Now this is the kind of point of order I say is a waste of time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Seriously speaking, the hon. Minister of Finance will wind up debate. He is the right person to make mention of what has been said as he winds up. In any case, the budget we are considering is for 2013. The answer is very simple. If the answer is that we did not give money for the 2013 budget because the money which was provided for in 2012 is still there, so be it. Do we have to waste time by raising such points of order? 

The hon. Member may continue. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, let me look at another activity. 

Mr Muntanga: Continue with the same one.

Mr Simbao: No, I will leave this one. 

Mr Muntanga: No, no, no, continue with the same.  

Mr Simbao: I want to talk about the Link Zambia 8000 Project. 

Mr Chairperson, I am not sure about which Link Zambia 8000 Project is being talked about in the budget. However, if it is the Link Zambia 8000 Project which we all have heard about …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member for Kalomo Central, please, slow down. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: But Mr Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: No, I heard you. You were even pointing at somebody. The hon. Member debating gets disturbed when you do such things. Please, give him time to debate. 

You may continue. 

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, if this is the same Link Zambia 8000 Project …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, let him finish first. 

Laughter

Mr Simbao: … then we are very excited about it. However, when I look at the K400 billion that has been allocated, I am sure that we will not go anywhere. Just two days ago, the Road Development Agency (RDA) tendered for two roads, both 200 plus kilometers in Muchinga Constituency. This was good. 

However, the money allocated for the Link Zambia 8000 Project will all be gobbled just by these two roads. This money can only tar about 80 kilometers and yet we are talking about working on 1000 kilometers of the road network. If we intend to do this in five years, it is fine. However, if this is all that we are going to do in five years, then we still have a long way to go and a lot more to do. We will probably have to wait for another term to do most things that the PF Government wants done for the people of Zambia. 

Mr Chairperson, I now want to talk about foreign exchange. The rate is still going up. When I saw it this morning, it was at K5,230.  If the rate continues to go up, the money that you are apportioning will not be enough because most of the equipment we are using is imported. The contractors who are being awarded contracts will find the work to be done very expensive. 

Mr Chairperson, the last time that the hon. Minister was on the Floor, he said that the Government would try and maintain the exchange rate at K4,800. They are, however, failing to bring it down to the average promise that was given, and now, it has escalated. This will affect our road infrastructure development. It is, therefore, important that the hon. Minister of Finance seriously looks at this. 

Mr Chairperson, I note from the Yellow Book that not much road works will be done in the Northern Province in 2013. I am not talking about the construction of new roads. I am talking about the rehabilitation of the old ones. I cannot see maintenance of roads in this Yellow Book. I thought that maintenance is always easier than starting anew.  As such, I think that we need to continue having the things that we already have. There is no mention of maintenance of roads such as the Senga/Chinakila, Kavumbo/Chozi, Chozi/Nakonde and many others that I know very well in Northern Province. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2012, over K4 trillion was given to this particular  Vote. This year, only K3 trillion has been allocated. I think that we have made a mistake to reduce the amount. We should have either maintained the 2012 allocation or increased it. That would have been better instead of allocating K20 billion for the Pedicle Road. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Mr J. Zimba (Chama North): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for the opportunity to debate and support the budget.  Sir, I am very happy with the Budget as well as the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Finance. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, I will try and remind the hon. Minister of a few issues so that the budget is not a failure in the process. 

Sir, every time we debate the Budget, I realise that it is actually not passed by public workers, but by hon. Members of Parliament. The purpose of passing the Budget by hon. Members is to ensure that development trickles right down to the constituencies. This is one very important issue. 

Consider the way we behave in our homes. When I pass a budget with my wife and children, …

Laughter 

Mr J. Zimba: … I monitor its implementation so as to ensure that the money approved has been used for the intended purpose. 

Laughter 

Mr J. Zimba: There should not be any diversion. 

Laughter 
Mr J. Zimba:  The guidelines are very clear on how this money must be used. 

Mr Chairperson, in getting back to the national Budget that the hon. Members of Parliament are passing in this august House, I want to talk about financial management. The Ministry of Finance is cardinal. It deals with all the policies related to financial management. 

Mr Katambo: On a point of procedure, Sir.

Mr J. Zimba: I would be very happy at this moment in time, … 

The Chairperson: Order!

What is your point of procedure?

Mr Katambo: Mr Chairperson, is it procedural for the hon. Minister of Finance to present to me, as Member of Parliament for Masaiti, the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure with some Heads missing? Head 37/01 to Head 37/05 are missing in my Yellow Book. I will present it to you for your perusal.

The Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Katambo walked towards the Table.

The Chairperson: Order!

You should have waited for me to make a ruling. I do not think that it is the hon. Minister of Finance who gave you that book.

Laughter

The Chairperson: If you need a better book, you can come to us and we can give you another.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: So, you can now bring your book.

Mr Katambo laid the paper on the Table.

Interruptions

Hon. Members: Order!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Hon. Zimba you may continue as we are trying to get the hon. Member an updated Yellow Book.

Mr J. Zimba: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Before I was interrupted by the point of order, I was trying to look at the issue of passing the Budget in this House. The question is: After the Budget has been passed, what is the next step for the people who passed it in determining how it should be monitored? That is a very important question. 

Sir, as the hon. Member of Parliament for Chama North, I am interested in knowing whether all the projects budgeted for will be given to me after the Budget is passed. It is also the duty of the hon. Minister of Finance to make sure that all the hon. Ministers of other ministries are provided with clear guidelines on the activities or projects to be undertaken in my constituency.

Hon. Opposition Members: That is true!

Mr J. Zimba: The reason I am saying so is that, for example, if there are boreholes budgeted for under local government that I do not know about, I will not know what to do next despite having contributed to passing the budget. How will I speak to my people? I am going to have a very big problem in explaining the budget. However, if the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing gives me a clear outline of the boreholes to be drilled in my constituency, then I am going to appreciate that. Nonetheless, where do I belong as an hon. Member of Parliament in terms of monitoring? 

Hon. Opposition Member: MMD!

Mr J. Zimba: Who should I see?

Before I came to the House, I used to see hon. Members of Parliament go to various ministries looking for money for projects in their constituencies. They were the ones who were passing the Budget, but they were going to dance to the tune of the civil servants.

Laughter

Mr J. Zimba: I saw this to be very unfair.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Zimba: This was reducing the integrity of the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Zimba: Hon. Members of Parliament should be given a schedule of projects in their constituencies and told where they are supposed to go to inquire about the money released for projects in their constituencies. After the hon. Ministers have been given all the schedules from various ministries, they are supposed to tell us, for example, that seventy boreholes will be drilled or six health posts built in a given constituency. I should also be told who to push for their implementation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Zimba: Should I go to the directors?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr J. Zimba: I would like the hon. Minister of Finance to help this House to maintain its integrity by making sure that good outline of projects in all constituencies is brought to hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Zimba: I would also like to urge the Executive, which is an implementing agency, with the help of the Civil Service, to help hon. Members of Parliament to press the civil servants so that they are able to …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the 
Chair]

Mr J. Zimba: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Mwila: Akulanda nomba! Ulande!

Mr J. Zimba: … when business was suspended, I was trying …

Hon. Members noisily entered the Assembly Chamber.

The Chairperson: When you are late, come in quietly and sit so that you can listen to the debate.

Mr J. Zimba: … to remind my father, the hon. Minister of Finance, that he heads a ministry that deals with all the finances that go to various ministries. Therefore, he must have a hand in making sure that all the ministries implement their work plans in the various constituencies. To maintain a government is just to explain to the people the truth about the Budget. Talk to them and ensure that projects are implemented. I will be in an awkward situation if I told people that there is a budget provided for boreholes, but nothing happens afterwards. This would be a very awkward for hon. Members of Parliament, who participate in passing the budget. The people who are implementing …

Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. Is the Deputy Minister of Defence, Hon. Mwila, in order to continue to intimidate the hon. Member who is debating so well? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: With his red eyes.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Well, I am surprised that Hon. Brigadier-General Dr Chituwo can notice from that end that the hon. Deputy Minister is intimidating the hon. Member. If he is, then, he should stop it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: You may continue, Hon. Zimba.

Mr J. Zimba: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Muntanga: Sit properly!

Mr Mwila: Landa!

Mr J. Zimba: I am not intimidated.

Mr Mwila: You are being supported!

Mr J. Zimba: Sir, let me go to another point just to support what I am talking about. If you look at our President, I see a great vision in him.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Zimba: As a result, people do not understand him, but I am inspired by him in what I am saying. If the President has taken up a stand on road infrastructure, such as the Chama/Matumbo Road in my constituency, then it means I will not talk about it to my people because the President has taken a stand.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Zimba: That is what I want the Executive to do. It should also take a stand on various projects concerning my constituency and support the President in demonstrating political will.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr J. Zimba: If there is political will in the ministries, I, as an hon. Member of Parliament, will support the projects and convince my people that these projects are going to be implemented. That is what I am trying to say.

Currently, people are saying that the PF Government does not like the Civil Service. The truth is that the PF wants a Civil Service that performs to people’s expectations, not workers who just sit in their offices.

Laughter

Mr Zimba: If we do that, then we will not be supporting the vision of the President. Hon. Ministers must stand for all of us, here, to make sure that all the projects under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing are implemented. Hon. Ministers must avail their developmental projects to the hon. Members of Parliament, who will monitor the progress and remind the hon. Ministers if implementation of a particular project is not done within the Budget cycle. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Zimba: I recall His Honour the Vice-President, sometime back, saying that he did not like the way the Civil Service operated, and he was perceived to be a bad person. The fact is that he was only protecting the integrity of hon. Members of Parliament by not subjecting them to the operations of the Civil Service.

Laughter

Mr Zimba: As an hon. Member of Parliament, if I start arguing with a civil servant, I will be lowering my integrity. Hon. Members of Parliament are respectable members of our communities who cannot, therefore, be going to civil servants to check if projects are being implemented. Just as the President said, we need hon. Ministers to support us, hon. Members of Parliament, in ensuring that we implement all developmental projects. However, this can only be achieved if the hon. Minister of Finance ensures that all funds allocated for various developmental projects are released for the intended projects. He needs to be bold and work with all the line ministries to ensure that projects are implemented. That way, the approving of the Budget will be justified. 

Sir, I would also like to talk about accountability. We have the Auditor-General’s Office, which is responsible for ensuring accountability in all national resources …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Zimba: So, how does the Government become accountable to the people? It is through the hon. Members of Parliament. 

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I apologise to the hon. Member on the Floor for interrupting his debate. I will be laying a paper on the Table for the very first time. The Post newspaper edition of 29th November, 2012, has an article headlined, “Ethiopia Detains PF Councillor for Failing to Settle Alcohol Bill, Councillor Incurs US $2,000 Beer Debt.”

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek your protection.

The Chairperson: You are protected. Go ahead.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, a councillor spent K10 million on beer in four days, when this money is needed in Lukulu Constituency. This is the same money we are talking about in this august House. Is this PF councillor in order …

Hon Opposition Members: Government.

Mr Mutelo: Is the PF Government in order to tolerate such conduct? We need to realise that, when one goes out of the country, he is not PF or MMD, but a Zambian. Is this PF Government in order to spend K10 million on beer when we want this money for the Lukulu-Katunda Road?

 I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Mutelo laid the paper on the Table.

The Chairperson: Okay, we have to make progress. Issues like that are among those that can be handled by the competent ministry. In this case, it can be handled by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in conjunction with Ministry of Local Government and Housing. So, I am sure that the hon. Ministers concerned will take that up.

Mr Zimba: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that hon. Members of Parliament can maintain their integrity by not flocking to offices of civil servants to enquire about the implementation of projects they approved in the Budget. It is the duty of hon. Ministers to press the civil servants to implement projects. Hon. Members of this House must also be availed the details of projects for the various constituencies so that the Government can be reminded when it fails to implement those projects. It will not do for hon. Members of Parliament to be going to the directors in various ministries because they will just be referred to other people who will also refer them to others.

Laughter

Mr Zimba: It will be like those are the people who passed the Budget and I am just there to implement when the opposite is the case. We need to be highly-esteemed. The President has made it very clear that he wants to see work done. That is why the Executive, which is also responsible for implementing the Budget, needs to work hard and ensure that sanity prevails in the PF administration.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Zimba: Sir, the other thing is accountability. There is a time when the Government must be accountable to this House because it passed the Budget. How can I be accountable if I do not know what the Budget was passed for? Therefore, I urge the Executive to ensure all the projects that have been approved in this Budget are implemented despite the fact that some of the activities are not actually appearing under particular programmes. That way, we are going to be a government of integrity. This Government is very competent, and that is why it has the support of so many people. It has managed to bring sanity in the public sector, and we want it to continue working hard and implementing this Budget properly.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, my primary task and pleasant duty is to thank hon. Members for their contributions. Their styles and incidences of, sometimes, playing to galleries in and outside this House, do not negate the validity of their submissions. The concerns that they have raised are legitimate, and it is only fair that, as a Government, we pay serious attention to what hon. Members of Parliament have expressed in terms of concerns and admonition. They admonish us to take care of certain things. There are certain issues that are recurring in all the submission by hon. Members of Parliament. If I do not lavishly refer to what hon. Members said, it is only that my thrust is to respect people’s valid judgements and opinions. I only come out on those issues that relate to facts.

Hon. Professor Lungwangwa set things in motion by expressing concerns about the inadequacy of our capacity to implement programmes. This is actually a very big issue. The implementation of Government programmes has been a big problem and it will continue to be a huge challenge. One of the reasons for this is that the economy of Zambia is very small. The gross domestic product (GDP) of US$21 billion to US$22 billion is a very small amount of money. Even yesterday, at the Zambia 
International Business Advisory Council (ZIBAC), I was saying that this kind of resource at the national level is insignificant. Some of the big universities in the world spend close to that amount per year. So, we really do not have much of an economy to talk about. It is, however, important that given the smallness of the national cake, whatever resources that are available are used prudently for us to, at least, achieve some little development in our national endeavours.

Hon. Hamududu presented issues very coherently and I note his concerns. Even where there were some small exaggerations in some statements, I still accommodate those because, basically, his thrust is essentially very well meaning. He raises issues which we should pay attention to and which should form part of our national development agenda. I am glad that we have now assured this House that the Bill on budget planning is coming and we will expedite this process. This will help us because development requires institutional mechanisms. 

Very often, in this country and elsewhere, people have exceedingly or indisputably good ideas, but it is a question of how we go about putting those ideas into effect. Very often, we have very profuse ideas but, at the end of the day, we, perhaps, forget to structure a vehicle for bringing those ideas into fruition. So, the arrangement of coming up with a Bill on budget planning will help us. It will improve the framework of doing our work, and anything that enhances accountability and inclusiveness is good. The more Parliament and its elaborate Committees will be having substantial inputs into the formulation of this Budget, the more realist the Budget will be.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member also talked about the construction of more universities. This is a good idea, but we have a programme regarding this matter. Universities cannot be built overnight. No individual or government can wave a magic wand to get projects off the ground just like that. Nothing is going to be built through fiats. We cannot just wake up one day and say, “Let there be universities”, and it happens. That is not possible because this requires a process. We need to, at least, have some objectiveness when talking about this issue. The President is setting the national agenda and these universities will be built over time as resources become available, but we have got to get to a good start. 

In the same context, let me also bring in views which have been articulated by others about stultifying the President’s creation of districts. This country is very large. For those who do not know, the Western, North-Western and Northern provinces, especially before Muchinga was hived off, are all bigger than Malawi. The Northern Province, before Muchinga was hived off, was exactly 30,000 km² bigger than Malawi. Therefore, the creation of new districts is a very important exercise. For example, Hon. Muntanga, do you know that your district Kalomo is one-and-half times the size of Burundi?

The Chairperson: Order!

Address the Chair, hon. Minister.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You are supposed to say, “Does Hon. Muntanga know that ….”

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, the distances between district headquarters in this country are very long. We should, therefore, continue to create more and more districts. So, this time you cannot stultify us because we have a budget line of K204 billion for this exercise. It may not go a long way but, at least, there is a start and we shall mobilise more resources. I, of course, agree with the point that while we are creating new districts, we should also attend to the existing ones, which are in a substandard states. That argument is very valid, but it does not obliterate the need to create more districts because this country is vast. 

New districts will bring development to the people and the delivery of social services will be much easier. We do not expect people to be walking 200 km just to go to a district headquarter to get their requirements or to be attended to. People go to district centres for a multitude of requirements. So, I think that creating districts has a developmental aspect to it. For me, I will really scout for resources to the fullest extent possible to make sure that we create new districts in order to facilitate delivery of services to our people. 

It is an inescapable duty, obligation and responsibility for the Government to render effective delivery of services to the people. The more districts we have, the easier it will be to do this. This is the overall objective. It may not be done overnight. Nobody has the capacity to do that because we do not, as I said, have a magic wand which we wave at our whims to make things happen overnight like that.

Mr Chairperson, let me not be charitable to hon. Members by not using the wrong words, but just say that some people got entrapped in misunderstanding the issue of loans and investment. The allocation of funds to loans and investment has existed from time immemorial. It is a mechanism through which we have funds destined for various ministries. Some monies are paid by the Government under loans and investment. So, it is not a strange thing. 

The Road Development Agency (RDA) is still administered by the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. So, putting an amount of more than K3 trillion for road construction under loans and investment is simply an administrative mechanism. These funds will be passed on by the Ministry of Finance to the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) and when the RDA has established a necessity of payment for road development, we will then disburse those funds. 

Institutions like the RDA are an integral part of the Government. Such institutions will not only interact with line ministries, but also with the Ministry of Finance and many other ministries such as the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. The Government is one and indivisible. So, the allocation of different responsibilities is just for administrative convenience. I hope that I have allayed the anxiety of hon. Members of Parliament. Hon. Simbao did not need any explanation because he knew this and was just trying to lend a bit of life to the debate.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: I know his capacity. He is my clansman. So, how can I not …

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Hon. Mucheleka started very well, but got angry.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: He puts me in an ingenious position. I cannot be asked by him because there is some considerable leverage over him. Mwana wandi, meaning he is my child. So, it is my duty to protect him, whenever he has anxieties, to allay them.  I am sure outside the mechanisms of the House, I will establish what is bothering umwana wandi.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Otherwise, when he speaks about rural development, I think his ideas are very valid. No matter how he says them, even in anger or bitterness, but he is very right about these rural development ideas. I like to listen more to the hon. Member when he is not playing to the gallery here and outside.

On the issue of borrowing, yes, when we went to the international bond market for the first time, and this was a refutation of some high prophets of doom such as Zambia is an investment destination, but those people have their own system of information about countries and they rate Zambia so highly. So, they come with US$12 billion when we are only asking for US$500 million or US$750 million, but we did not have capacity to take more than that at that time because I did not have the shopping list which was properly quantified and with bankable and viable ideas. That is my limitation. When I have bankable projects, I can go to the market and raise the money to do that. We will do so in due course, but I want to see some mission of bankable projects first.

Just to give an example of what is current. We did not have any difficulties with a bankable project like massive forestation and so on and so forth. In one meeting or programme, which is sensible, it is funded almost on the spot. I hope when we go to the international market, the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection will come with a much wider programme because there is no difficult to fund. Very often, people say we do not have the resources. Yes, we do not have the resources, but we have resource number one which is the intellectual resource. We do not have ideas which are bankable or viable. Otherwise, money would be easy to mobilise or money would not be beyond our means to find if our ideas which are workable are there. 

So, all the money we got from the international bond market has gone to infrastructure development. None of it has gone into recurrent departmental charges or any consumption. I think 30 per cent or US$255 million which we raised has gone to the power sector. All of us are inconvenienced at one time or another through these power outages. So, we need to fix this power or electricity sector. We also want to generate more electricity for exports, especially electricity from the hydropower which we have. We have an advantage which is unmatched in the Southern Africa sub-continent because we have more than 40 per cent of the surface water in the region. So, hydropower is an environmental friendly …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, order!

The hon. Members on my right should consult quietly. 

You can continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Chikwanda: … source of power. Water is available and it is a perpetually renewable resource and is one of the smartest forms of exports. We do not have to build railway lines like roads in order to export electricity and stealing electricity from the transmission will take a lot of ingenuity.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: So, there are no security logistical problems associated with thefts of copper or other commodities from the agriculture sector. So, nearly 30 per cent of money has been put into the power sector for borrowing. 

The other issue is, of course, the railway system. I am surprised that somebody was pouring scorn on this kind of thing. The railway system is a vital thing for transportation of goods and services. If we fix the railway system, I think we are going to make a lot of inroads in Hon. Muntanga’s constituency because his people like Chitima, meaning the train.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Zambia has a high cost economy. One of the things that raises costs is transportation. When we want to export, our exports will be inhibited by prohibitive sea and inland freight costs, especially the inland component. If we transport commodities, say from the Copperbelt to Dar-es-Salaam in Tanzania by road, the inland freight cost factor would be about US$300 and, maybe, by railway, US$50. So, we can make a lot of saving, as a country, plus the fact that our roads are being pounded by these heavy trucks and the cost of repairing or rehabilitating these roads is absolutely astronomical and becoming increasingly unsustainable. 

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Finance in order to accuse me and the people of Kalomo of liking like chitima? When he was under UNIP, because of his extreme liking of chitima, he created the Tanzania-Zambia Railways Authority (TAZARA) to pass through this home village in Mpika so that he shows how much he likes it. Is he in order to accuse me when it is him who likes chitima so much?

The Chairperson: He was praising you. So, in that context, he is in order.

The hon. Minister continue.

Mr Chikwanda: Hon. Muntanga, we can express afflictions to each other than gallery points of order. 

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Hon. Mucheleka, we accept your concerns about borrowing. What is worrying me actually is the fact that we are not moving fast enough. We talk about diversification, but just end there. Diversification is just a matter of semantic guise and there is no practical programme of diversifying, but I hope we can. This country has huge potential. It has a fantastic source as long as we do not really make a mistake of growing things in areas where those things cannot grow well because of other factors. Like cereals, we have to grow them where they can be grown successfully and not try to grow some cereals, especially in high rainfall areas where there is considerable leaching and pronounced acidities in the soil. So, this country can move forward. We have some advantages which cannot be replicated elsewhere. At the Nakambala Sugar Estate, which is in Hon. Nkombo’s constituency, they yield 130 tonnes of cane per hectare. Compare that with the use of cane in Kwazulu Natal, they yield 70 tonnes to 80 tonnes per hectare of cane. At Nakambala Sugar Estate, they produce 50 tonnes of cane per hectare more than they produce in Kwazulu Natal. That is just one example. 

When Hon. Chenda gave me the opportunity to accompany him to a wheat scheme in Mpongwe, we found the views of wheat there astronomical. Perhaps, it is the highest in the world. It is 10.4 tonnes per hectare and the only places which were comparable in terms of yields to that were Oregon or some state in the United States of America (USA), but they are genetically modified organism (GMO). However, knowing GMOs, these tonnes of yields should be the highest in the world. Zambia has fantastic possibilities which we should try to make use of. However, we have kept talked about certain things since time immemorial. We need to get into action. From time immemorial, our actions are not commensurate with our pronouncements from the most loft platform which is why our GDP is US$21 billion equivalent to three weeks of some chain stores elsewhere in the world.

   Mr Chairperson, for the sake of my distinguished brother, Hon. Simbao, let me assuage his very legitimate concerns about the funding for Kalabo and Nakonde roads. For Nakonde Road, his distinguished administration actually provided funding in 2010.We released the 15 per cent of the expenditure involved. The balance, which is 85 per cent is supposed to come from Exim Bank in China. I understand that it is in the offing. The same applies to the Mongu/Kalabo Road. We provided the funding and the balance is also supposed to be mobilised by our Chinese collaborators from Exim Bank. 

   In respect to roads in Chembe, which was also another concern expressed, K90 billion has already been made available by the RDA. The K20 billion which appears in the estimates is just a supplement and is not the end of the story. More could have been provided if resources were available. However, when there is a line, you know that there is commitment. 

   Mr Chairperson, Hon. Zimba also raised concerns about implementation and accountability. I agree with his concerns. So, let me not prolong the story, but once again thank the hon. Members for their support. 

   Mr Chairperson, the Budget of the country is a very big issue in the country’s development agenda, and therefore, must arouse a lot of feelings. I personally would encourage hon. Members of Parliament to be unconstrained to express their views and suggestions as long as they think we can do things a bit better than we doing. 

   Sir, the fact that we have stayed stagnant at small growth rates of 6 to 7 per cent which really do not impact on poverty reduction means that we must be critically look at the way we have done things. We have not got to higher levels of development because we have not been doing things right. Right from the inception, earlier in the administration of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) we did a few things and then decided to sit back. So Zambia’s story has been that we take one step forward and then five steps backwards. We all should do some soul searching. Therefore, those hon. Members on the other side of the House who like card marking and want to glorify their success stories which actually are miserable failures …

   Laughter

   Mr Chikwanda: It is not on. We should all do our soul searching and invoke our collective consciences. We are at that law level of development because we do not do things right. This administration is trying to do things right. Therefore, let us work together. There is a lot of things we can achieve if we worked together.

    I just wanted to say that at one time, we went for lunch with a Japanese parliamentary delegation along with members of the Government including several hon. Ministers and some of our colleagues from the other side. By consensus, all hon. Ministers suggested that since it was a parliamentary delegation, why do we not ask one of our colleagues, Hon. Nkombo to join us. We pounced on him and he obliged at short notice and what a submission he made. The Japanese went back singing glory about this country and the way we are organised. So, in pulling each other, let us remember that we have one common project called Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

   Mr Chikwanda: We are all bonded to it. There is no need for us to try and score dubious debating points. We all have obligations to this baby called Zambia. Let us work together. There is a point at which hon. Members on the other side want to call the attention of Government to their misdirection. Please, do so. I personally do not think that anytime people bring different ideas or suggest how we could better our performance that we should pour scorn on them. Let us work together. I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for their attention.

   Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
   Mr Lubinda: Ndiye ma Finance Minister aba.

   Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 21/01 – (Loans and Investment – Ministry of Finance and National Planning – K6,229,527,624,030).

   Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

 (i)    By the deletion of “VOTE 21/01 Loans and Investment – Ministry of Finance and National Planning” and the substitution therefor of “VOTE 21/01 Loans and Investment – Ministry of Finance”;

(ii)    Under Unit 02 Ministry of Works and Supply – Roads Development Agency, by the deletion of the words “Works and Supply” and the substitution therefor of the words “Transport, works, Supply and Communication”;

(iii)    Under Unit 02  Ministry of Works and Supply – roads Development Agency, Programme: 3101 Road Infrastructure Upgrade, by the deletion of Programme Total K1,049,689,783,656 and the substitution therefor of K1,049,689,783,654; and

(iv)    Under Unit 01 Loans and Investments Programme: 3085 Recapitalisation and Investments of Government Institutions, Activity 081, by the deletion of the words “Rehabilitation of UTH, Living General, Kitwe and Ndola Central Hospitals” and the substitution therefor of the words “Rehabilitation of UTH, Kitwe and Ndola Central Hospitals”.

   Thank you, Sir.

   Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3097, Activity 009 – Rehabilitation of the Bottom Road from Chaanga Njami in Southern Province – K30,000,000,000. The allocation for this year was K50,000,000,000, but it has been reduced by K20,000,000,000 for next year. In the meantime, rehabilitation works are nearing Zimba. Why the reduction when we still have 400 km to reach Zimba? 

   The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Sampa): I think that he has gone ahead of us, but I will answer him all the same. The funding is enough for this year. The programme is ongoing for many years. That funding is adequate for this year. We do not want to allocate funds that will lie idle. It takes many years to build a road. Therefore, you do not want to allocate all the funds for a road that will take five years to build and lump them in one line in one year. Those funds are enough for 2013.

Thank you, Sir.

   Dr Kazonga (Vubwi):  Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3085, Activity 050 – Cooperatives – K15,000,000,000. What constitutes this activity? Is it registered cooperatives or the Zambia Cooperatives Federation? What is this budget line for?

   Thank you, Sir.

   Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, this provision will be used for lending money to cooperatives in order to revamp their operations. This, therefore, constitutes various cooperatives. The funds will be lent to them.

   Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3097, Activity 033 – Rehabilitation of District Roads – Nil. In this year’s Budget, K287,500,000,000 was allocated for this activity, next year, nothing has been allocated for this activity. Does this mean that no district roads are going to be rehabilitated next year?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been realigned to Programme 3101, Activity 107 – Link Zambia Roads Project – K437,149,907,406  on page 462. Therefore, this activity has no provision in 2013, it has been moved to another budget line as I mentioned.

I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3085, Activity 054 – Rural Finance Policy – K2,000,000,000. Can the hon. Minister inform the House what this activity is about.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, this provision is meant to implement the Rural Finance Policy Strategy in Zambia which has just been formulated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3101, Activity 001 – Chembe Bridge- Mansa (83) – K12,000,000,000. Chembe bridge has been completed, however, K12,000,000,000 has been allocated to it. What is this money for.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet the cost for periodic maintenance of the Chembe/Mansa Road. The increase is due to the anticipated general price increases.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Is that another bridge?

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, before I draw the hon. Minister to the page from where I will ask my question, I wish to state that I have realised that all monies for staff welfare have been lumped centrally into what we are told, is going to be the establishment of the Public Service Credit Union which is under Programme 3085, Activity 063 – K70,000,000,000. I would like the hon. Minister to confirm to me that all kinds of staff welfare activities regardless of their nature, be it illness or funerals, will be drawn from this Vote. Is this the implication, hon. Minister?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the funds are not for all those items you mentioned such as funerals. These funds are specifically for staff advances. Before this activity was introduced, things such as staff advances were provided for centrally by different ministries. I should mention that this idea came from the civil servants themselves when they were negotiating with the Government. This was one of their bargaining points. They said that they wanted to establish their own credit union facility or bank. However, at the moment, that is still in the pipeline. This revolving fund will be managed centrally by the Ministry of Finance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr J. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3085, Activity 032 – TAZARA Retirees Terminal Benefits – 10,000,000,000. Last year, K10,515,000,000 was allocated for this activity. Next year, K10,000,000,000 has been allocated for the activity. Do you not think that this money is very little?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the provision is meant to support TAZARA which is in financial distress to settle outstanding terminal benefits for its retirees. The reduction is because some retirees have already been paid off in 2012. The money for other capital expenses is lying in other budget lines.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3085, Activity 034 – TAZARA Reconstruction at 50% Shared Cost with the Tanzanian Government – Nil. Nothing has been allocated for this activity next year. I want to know whether this reconstruction has been completed.

Mr Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 3097, Activity 009 – Rehabilitation of the Bottom Road from Chaanga to Njami in Southern Province – K30,000,000,000. This road is being upgraded to a bituminous level. This company can only do six kilometres, yet, every construction unit can do a maximum of fifty-three kilometres per year. What do you expect the company to do in the remainder of the year after they have worked on only six kilometres?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3085, Activity 034 – TAZARA Reconstruction at 50% Shared Cost with the Tanzanian Government – Nil, the 50 per cent of the money was paid this year, which is K15,000,000,000. There is no budget line for this activity in 2013 because this was a one-off provision for TAZARA to clean its balance sheet.

Mr Chairperson, Activity 009 – Rehabilitation of the Bottom Road from Chaanga to Njami in Southern province – K30,000,000,000, this amount is required to meet the cost of rehabilitating the Bottom Road. The reduction in the amount is due to the anticipated scope of work to be done. Funds have to be used well. Therefore, the scope of work for next year is anticipated to be within that allocated amount.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3085, Activity 075 – Establishment of Provinces and Districts – K204,000,000,000. I want to find out what this establishment entails. Is it for the employment of staff, creation of new provinces or districts? I also want to find out which provinces and districts are being talked about in the allocation.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the K204,000,000,000 was  talked about by the hon. Minister earlier. This provision is for infrastructure development in the newly formed province and districts. The funds for operations will come later in the budget for the province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I want further clarification on the question that I asked earlier  regarding Programme 3085, Activity 063 – Establishment of Public Service Credit  Union – K70,000,000,000. In his response to my question, the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that the items that I had listed in my question which included bereavements or illnesses would not be included under this activity, and that this activity would only accommodate staff advances. Since we pulled all resources from Staff Welfare in all the ministries and provinces, save for the Eastern Province, when a civil servant has a problem in terms of what I listed, and needs help urgently, where will they go to seek that help within their respective ministries? I was under the impression that these resources were pooled centrally.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, this issue has come up even in our previous debate. It explains why there was still money allocated to Staff Welfare in some provinces and ministries. That simply answers these concerns. The money is for things like funeral grants. What has been pulled out is money for loans, mortgages and salary advances.

Sir, the ministries have a different way of budgeting. In some areas, that money will be put under Emoluments or General Office Administration. So, there is a different format of how each ministry allocates those funds. The funds for the issues that the hon. Member mentioned are still in various ministries and provinces. What we pulled out was only the money for loans, mortgages and advances.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 21/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 37/01– (Ministry of Finance – Human Resource and Administration – K464,425,449,384)

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(a)under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 3000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K11,459,382,753 and the substitution therefor of K11,459,382,754; and

(b)under Unit 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme: 3001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K6,413,174,601 and the substitution therefor of K6,413,174,602.

Amendment agreed to.

Vote 37/01 amended accordingly.

Vote 37/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 37/02 – (Ministry of Finance – Budget Office – K16,175,089,290)

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3110, Activity 005 – Enhancement of Treasury Management – K2,052,730,000. I see a huge increase when you compare this year’s allocation to next year’s. What is the reason?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the provision and increase are required to provide for effective software and hardware to ensure that there is non-interruptible interface between the Budget Office and key institutions like the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) and the Centralised Computer Services Department (CCSD), which is the information technology (IT) department of the ministry. So, the three will be interfacing. The allocation will also be required to enhance capacity in key institutions. We are also moving to a single Treasury account and will need IT interface. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3111, Activity 004 – Compilation and Determination of Tax Bases – K145,000,000, and Activity 006 – Compilation of Tax Bases – K190,000,000. Both activities indicate Compilation and Determination of Tax Bases. Is this duplication?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, indeed, there seemed to have been duplication in the two activities. However, a corrigendum was distributed earlier which resolved that problem.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3111, Activity 002 – Tax Policy Review – K1,358,683,226. There is an allocation of K1.4 billion compared with the K600 million for last year. Is this not a routine activity? If it is, why should it cost so much?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to meet the cost associated with undertaking studies on tax law and policies. The increase is in line with the Government stance to commence a holistic review of the tax system and rationalise tax incentives. A number of activities were undertaken in preparation for the tax policy review, including studies on small and medium enterprise (SME), focused on the cost of compliance and promoting a culture of paying taxes amongst SMEs by simplifying accounting requirement. That accounts for the increase.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishiba (Kafulafuta): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3111, Activity 004 – Compilation and Determination of Tax Bases – K145,000,000, and Activity 006 – Compilation of Tax Bases – K190,000,000. If this is duplication, why should the figures be different and how are we going to explain the total?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, thank you for the good observation. The amendment went further to state that Activity 006 is not Compilation and Determination of Tax Bases, but Tax Policy Bulleting. It is totally different from the other one. What was duplicated was the headline, but it has been amended.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3103, Activity 009 – Recruitment and Induction of Staff – K50,500,000. There is a big reduction here. Does it imply that the Ministry of Finance establishment is now filled? On Programme 3119, Activity 011 – Human Resource Forecasting – Nil, there is no allocation. Does that mean that the Ministry of Finance will now stop this activity?

The Chairperson: Order!

We are considering Head 37/02. So, that has been overtaken by events.{mospagebreak}

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3109, Activity 012 – Budget Software Installation – K149,234,000. An amount of K149,234,000 has been allocated for this year and next year. May I find out if this activity was not completed last year?

Mr Sampa: I will ‘speedise’ the answer.

Laughter 

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the allocation is required to meet the costs for annual Budget software updates and installations in ministries, provinces and other spending agencies. Our costing indicates that K149,234,000 is sufficient to undertake this activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 37/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 37/07 (Ministry of Finance – Financial Management and Accounting Department – K691,211,199,526).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(a)under unit 04 Revenue Monitoring Unit, Programme: 3046 Revenue Monitoring, by the deletion of Programme Total K873,187,526 and the substitution therefor of K873,187,525;

(b)under Unit 04: Revenue Monitoring Unit, Programme 3058: Procurement Monitoring of Accountable Documents, by the deletion of Programme Total K22,956,886,483 and the substitution therefor of K22,956,886,484; and

(c)under Unit 09: VAT/Customs Duty Refund Unit, Programme: 3117 Implementation of Customs Duty/Value Added for Funding and Refunding, by the deletion of Programme Total K321,674,099 and the substitution therefor of K321,674,100.

Amendment agreed to. 

Vote amended accordingly. 

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3116, Activity 001 – Sale of Government Houses – K89,880,000. What, exactly, is involved in the sale of Government Houses?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to cater for the cost of physical inspection of pool houses to reconcile their records in the provinces with the Office of the Auditor-General’s database. The variance is due to the scaling down of activities.

Mr Zimba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3096, Activity 002 … 

The Chairperson: We have already gone past that one.

Vote 37/07, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 37/09 – (Ministry of Finance – Central Statistical Office – K63,371,568,313).

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3057, Activity 002 – Producer Price Index – Nil, and Programme 3015, Activity 004 – Country STAT – Nil. In both programmes there is no provision for next year. Why is that so?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3057, Activity 002 has been re-aligned to Activity 001 – Consumer Price Index – K3,600,000,000 within the same programme. The funds in Activity 011 are meant for the collection of monthly price data used in the compilation of revised Consumer Price Index.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kazonga: There was a second question.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3015, Activity 004, has been re-aligned to Programme 3011, Activity 001 – Archiving of Files – K150,000,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3107, Activity 004 – Fleet Servicing – K200,000,000, and Activity 009 – Transport Management – K430,000,000. May the hon. Minister differentiate the two because I am having difficulties understanding this arrangement.

The Chairperson: May you repeat your question.

Mr Livune repeated the question.

The Chairperson: You want to find out if fleet servicing and transport management are the same?

Mr Livune: Yes, Sir.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the funds under Programme 3107, Activity 004, are meant to cater for the purchase of spare parts, repairs and general maintenance of motor vehicles. The decrease in the estimate is a result of the new measures that have been implemented in transport management, including tracking of vehicles. Programme 3107, Activity 009, is meant to cater for the purchase of fuel and lubricants. The decrease in the allocation is also a result of the new measures that have been implemented. 

Mr Katambo: Mr Chairperson, may I have … 

Hon. Government Member: You got a new book?

Mr Katambo: Thank you for the new book, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Katambo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3130, Activity 002 – Summarising Indicators for the Country – Nil. Why is there no allocation for this activity next year? 

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been realigned to Activity 001 within the same programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3028, Activity 002 – Tax Insurance and Other Financial Statistics. Earlier, we saw that there is major tax policy review spending almost K1.3 billion. One would have thought that this statistics collection thereof would be an integral part of the tax policy review. Why have we not provided for the same?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3028, Activity 002 – Tax Insurance and Other Financial Statistics, it is not that it will not be budgeted for next year. It has been moved elsewhere. Tax insurance and other financial statistics, this activity has been realigned to Programme 3017, Activity 010. The same applies to Activity 001, Central Local and Quasi Government Survey. It has been realigned to Programme 3017, Activity 010.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 001 – Africa Public Service Day, Activity 009 – International Labour Day, Activity 019 – World Aids Day Participation and Programme 3002, Activity 004 – Agriculture and Commercial Show, Activity 007 – International Trade Fair and Activity 031 – African Statistics Week. All these have not been funded. Does it mean that the ministry will not participate in these events anymore?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, again, it has to do with realignment. The ministry will participate in those events and they have been moved elsewhere. In the case of Africa Public Service Day, the activity has been realigned to Unit 16, Programme 3002, Activity 001 – African Public Service Day – K45 million. International Labour Day has been moved to Programme 3002, Activity 009, International Labour Day – K250 million.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3084, Activity 018 – Procurement and Maintenance of Printing Equipment and Activity 700 – Maintenance of Printing Equipment – K150 million.  The procurement of this equipment was K300 million this year and the maintenance of this equipment will be K150 million next year. Why maintain with such an amount for an equipment that was bought at K300 million?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3084, Activity 018 – Procurement and Maintenance of Printing Equipment and Activity 700 – Maintenance of Printing Equipment – K150 million, first of all, there is already existing equipment. Therefore, this must have been a replacement. Procurement and Maintenance of Printing Equipment, there is no provision as the procurement of the new equipment has been deferred to the year 2014. Maintenance of Printing Equipment, this provision is for the repair and replacement of printing press component. This is a new activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Votes 37/09, 3710 and 3711 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 37/12 – (Ministry of Finance – National Planning Department – K18,241,368,683).

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3006, Activity 004 – Membership to Professional Bodies – Nil. Last year, there was an allocation of K373,328,347 and this year, there is nothing. Does it mean that we have stopped being members?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3006, Activity 004 – Membership to Professional Bodies – Nil, due to the realignment of resources to critical areas such as project appraisal, which the department wants to undertake, hence there is no provision. The department decided not to provide for that because they want to concentrate on project appraisals.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zimba: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – Nil. This year, you provided K939,876,866 but, next year, you have not provided anything. What has happened?

Mr Sampa: Sir, Programme 3000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – Nil, the personnel have moved to the provinces and that is where they will operate from. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chishiba: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3043, Activity 002 – Provincial Planning Review Meetings – K270 million. This year, there is an allocation of K100 million. May I know what has necessitated this increase to K270 million knowing that only one province has been created on top of the existing ones?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3043, Activity 002 – Provincial Planning Review Meetings – K270 million, the increase is due to the creation of a new province and districts.

I thank you, Sir.

Votes 37/12 and 37/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 37/14 – (Ministry of Finance – National Policy and Programme Implementation Department – K9,886,876,262).

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3124, Activity 001 – Articulation of Vision 3020 – Nil. I have noted that everything to do with Vision 2030 has not been funded. I would like to know why.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3124, Activity 001 – Articulation of Vision 3020  – Nil, this activity has been realigned to Vote 37/12, Programme 3049, Activity 044 – Review of Progress towards Vision 2030 – K100 million.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3119, Activity 003 – Strategic Plan Development – K30,250,000. This amount was given last year and …

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I am at pains, but I am compelled to raise this point of order which borders on the procedure which is very important. I am now in this House as a second termer. I have seen six activity-based Budgets being passed in this House five of which I was an hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, I am not happy with the manner in which the Executive is giving us answers. They are being so deceitful, and are failing …

The Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Dr Kaingu: … to show us that this is an activity-based Budget.

Mr Chairperson, I want to refer to 22nd November, 2012 when we were dealing with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to buttress this.

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: The problem is that there are some disposed people.

The Chairperson: Dr Kaingu, please, ignore them.

Order!

Mr Kaingu: Allow me to quote Hon. Simbao when he rose to question the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. He said “Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 004 – Rehabilitation of Access Roads – K17,500,000,000 and Activity 007 – Road Rehabilitation – K23,000,000,000. I want to know if Senga Hill Constituency will benefit from these two activities and, if not, which constituencies will benefit.” The hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing answered as follows: “Mr Chairperson, as I indicated, we cannot give the answers right now.” There were interruptions and then the hon. Deputy Minister further said, “the details will come after the approval of the Budget.”

Mr Chairperson, yesterday, as we were discussing the budget for the Ministry of Tourism and Arts, Hon. Mbulakulima said, “Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1009, Activity 039 – Pre-Audit of Payment Vouchers – K264,500,000. I understand the increase from K16,700,000 to this amount. However, being an activity-based Budget, what new things will be involved in this? Activity 049 – Verification of Stores and Inventory – K92,775,000, there is an increase of K8,104,250 to K92,775,000. I understand the definition and meaning, what extras have been introduced to warrant this?” The hon. Deputy Minister of Tourism and Arts, Hon. Phiri answered, “Mr Chairperson, Programme 1009, Activity 039 – Pre-Audit Payment of Vouchers – K264,500,000. This amount will also be used to procure one motor vehicle for field operations.”

Mr Chairperson, today, an hon. Member of Parliament rose and asked the hon. Minister of Finance why K12,000,000,000 had been allocated to Chembe Bridge, and he responded that, the amount was meant for maintenance. This is a colossal sum of money for maintenance.

Mr Chairperson, is this Government in order to hide activities in other activities, when we know very well that this is an activity-based Budget and, therefore, when an activity is mentioned in this House, that will be the activity on which the amount will be spent. I am seeing that this Government has been deceitful …

The Chairperson: Order!

I think …

Dr Kaingu: … and is hiding some money in other activities. Knowing that this is an activity-based Budget, are they in order to hide some activities in other activities? 

I seek your ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: I let Hon. Dr Kaingu finish his point of order because I wanted to see where he was going but, procedurally, points of order must relate to the subject under discussion and have to be made there and then. He is referring to matters that where long dealt with. Therefore, procedurally, it is a non starter. However, I gave him time in order to air his views. 

Can we continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3119 …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of procedure, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of procedure is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I just want to seek your guidance pertaining to points of order and the clarifications that we are seeking on the Floor of this House, considering that you, at times, say that you will not allow any points of order pertaining to issues that are being raised. At what point will we be able to raise issues like the one Hon. Kaingu has raised because, if time has elapsed, then we would not have that opportunity to raise issues. 

I need your guidance, Sir.

The Chairperson: At the time that issue was being discussed, it is when he should have raised that point of order.

Continue, please, hon. Member.

Mr Mufalali: … Activity 003 – Strategic Plan Development – K30,250,000. This amount was given this year and the same amount has been given for next year. Did this activity take place, considering that a strategic plan should be developed every year?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3119, Activity 003 – Strategic Plan Development – K30,250,000. The provision is meant to cater for costs that are related to annual planning and budgeting activities which the department is involved in. Therefore, this is an annual and ongoing activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3067, Activity 010 – Transaction Management and Advisory – K2,090,000,000. In 2012, K1 billion was allocated. For 2013, there the amount has been increased by 100 per cent so that it is now K2 billion. I would like to know which new activities have necessitated this jump. 

Mr Sampa: The Chairperson, the provision on Programme 3067, Activity 010 – Transaction Management and Advisory – K2,090,000,000 will cover costs related to Public-Private Partnership (PPP) transactions such as legal fees as well as outsourcing of transaction advisory services. 

This allocation will be used to complete transactions in a timely and efficient manner. The amount has gone up significantly due to the costs for an on-going consultancy contract as well as the anticipated PPP project transactions which are in the pipeline. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3067. There was a policy pronouncement by the Government that the PPP Unit would merge with the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA). Why are we then budgeting for the PPPs in the Ministry of Finance? 

Mr Sampa: Sir, that is a general question. The PF Manifesto states clearly under commerce that we will review the ZDA, PPP ZPPA Acts. That revision process is in the pipeline. The PPP Unit will continue to lie under the Ministry of Finance until the time there shall be changes.  

I thank you, Sir. 

Dr Kazonga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3124, Activity 003 –Co-ordination of Programme Implementation – K290,809,091 and Activity 005 – Co-ordination of Triangles of Hope Initiatives. 

Sir, I would like to know why the allocation for the first activity has increased from about K79 million to around K209 million. Secondly, I would like to know why there is no provision for the second activity and yet we had about K335 million allocated this year. 

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 3124, Activity 003 –Co-ordination of Programme Implementation – K290,809,091 is meant to cater for costs associated with stakeholder consultation and programme implementation. It will also be spent on the monitoring and evaluation (M&E) which shall be done in collaboration with the M&E Department of the ministry. The variance in the provision for the activity is because there is a United Nation Development Programme (UNDP) supported programme.   

Mr Chairperson, Programme 3124, Activity 005 – Co-ordination of Triangles of Hope Initiatives is a Malaysian initiated programme. No budget provision has been made since most of the activities have been carried out in 2012. 

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3124, Activity 001 – Articulation of Vision 2030 – Nil and Programme 3067, Activity 002 – Institutional Setup – K 1,050,000,000. May I know why there is no allocation in 2013 for the first activity. 

Secondly, in line with the question raised by Hon. Mutati, it was pronounced in this House and later on re-enforced by the hon. Minister of Finance that the PPP Unit would merge with the ZDA to form the Industrial Development Commission (INDECO). Is the allocation for Activity 002 an indication that the new INDECO is coming? If not, what is it for?

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairperson, usually, professors usually listen when others are talking. 

Sir, Programme 3124, Activity 001 – Articulation of Vision 2030 has no provision because this activity has been moved to Vote 37, Programme 3049 and Activity 44 on page 595 of the Yellow Book. 

Sir, Programme 3067, Activity 002 – Institutional Setup – K1,050,000,000 is meant to cover costs associated with the institutional framework for the implementation and management of the PPP programme. The reduction is due to the completion of some of the activities this year. I mentioned earlier, however, that plans are there for improving the PPP. We will look at them at the right time. It may even be in the 2014 Budget.  At the moment, this activity still lies in the Ministry of Finance. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 37/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 85 – (Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection – K115,602,474,209). 

The Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection (Mr Simuusa): Mr Chairperson, I wish to take this opportunity to address this august House on my ministry’s budget estimates and programmes for the 2013 Budget. 

Sir, I wish to start by saying that land and other natural resources form the basis …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members behind the hon. Minister please give him time to read his statement, uninterrupted.  

You may continue. 

Mr Simuusa: Sir, I wish to start by saying that land and other natural resources form the basis for the economic development of our country. It is, therefore, extremely important that these resources are efficiently and effectively managed, while responsibly looking after or taking care of our environment. It is for this reason that my ministry has set for itself a very clear mission statement which is:

“To administer and manage land, environment and natural resources in a transparent and sustainable manner in order to contribute to socio-economic development”. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to state to this House and to the nation at large, once again, that the structure of the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection has eight departments namely; the department of lands, lands and deeds; survey; planning; natural resources and environmental protection; forestry; the Zambia Forestry College; human resources and administration. In addition to these eight departments, the ministry is also responsible for three grant-aided institutions namely the Lands Tribunal; the Survey Control Board; and the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA). 

This means, therefore, that funds allocated to the ministry are shared among these eight departments as well as the three grant-aided institutions which the ministry has to support as they undertake their programmes. 

Mr Chairperson, a brief review of the ministry’s performance in 2012 is as follows: 

International Boundaries

Mr Chairperson, the …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours. 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the 
Chair]

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was in the process of delivering a brief review of the ministry’s performance in 2012 as follows:

(i)on international boundaries, I wish to report that the physical demarcation of the Zambia/Malawi border which has a total 804 km has been completed. The reaffirmation and densification of the Zambia/Mozambique border has been completed; and 

(ii)naming, observations, impact assessments and production of maps is going on; 

Sir, as regards to the forest tree seedling production, I wish to state that my ministry this year embarked on a massive seed production exercise. This is in readiness for the countrywide tree planting programme which is going to commence before the end of this year.

With regards to land identification and alienation, my ministry has continued to liaise with councils who are the ministry’s agents and planning authorities to make more land available for residential, commercial, industrial and other uses. In addition, my ministry has been working closely with traditional leaders to make more land available.

On cadastral surveys and mapping services, I wish to report that during this year, my ministry has been undertaking cadastral surveys countrywide in order to facilitate processing of title deeds. The ministry has also been undertaking aerial photography in order to produce maps for various land uses which can also be used for economic planning.

Mr Chairperson, on the disbursement of the Land Development Fund (LDF), I wish to report that this fund is meant to help councils to open up new areas for the preparation of the development of site plans for surveying. I am happy to report that my ministry this year has disbursed a total of K24,147,670,487 to twenty-two councils. These funds are intended to assist councils to open up new areas for development.

However, I wish to urge all councils to ensure that these funds once secured from my ministry, are used for the purposes for which they were intended and not abused or diverted for other purposes like paying salaries.

Mr Chairperson, with regards to the development of a new land administration and information system, I wish to report that my ministry has this year commenced a new land administration and information system. This is in order to replace the current system which has weaknesses.

On the hosting of the 8th Conference of Ministers for the Regional Central for Mapping of Resources for Development (RCMRD), I am pleased to report to this House that my ministry managed to hold this regional conference in November this year. The hosting of this Conference also worked as a marketing tool for our country’s tourism potential.

Sir, with regards to the Zambia Forestry College (ZFC), Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that my ministry this year embarked on the construction of a one by four double storey student hostel, establishing a Geographical Information System (GIS) and the refurbishment of a science laboratory.

Mr Chairperson, allow me now to highlight some of the main programmes for the year 2013 that my ministry is going to embark on. 

Sir, for 2013, the ministry’s total budget is K115,602,474,209 which includes donor contributions, the main donors being Global Environment Fund (GEF), Africa Development Bank (AFDB), the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) and Danish International Development Agency (DANIDA). Out of this, K13,319,102,584 will be for personal emoluments and K102,283,371,625 for programmes. 

Mr Chairperson, I wish to start by reporting on the programme of the modernisation of the land administration system. May I take this opportunity to announce to the House and indeed to the nation a programme of particular interest that my ministry is embarking on and this is the modernisation of the land administration system for this country. This will involve the following:

(i)full computerisation of the operations of the lands function at the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection;

(ii)digitisation and capturing of all properties and files in the country;

(iii)a decentralisation of operations to do with the administration of land  and to link all provincial capitals to the centre;

(iv)capacitation and automation of the Lands Survey Department; and

(v)commissioning of ultra-modern map printing press/facility.

Mr Chairperson, the House and the nation is aware that the current land administration system is mainly done manually and faces a lot of challenges which include lack of reliability, data integrity and security, and reports and incidences regarding missing files and documents, tampering of property and file details, delays in the processing of certificates of titles to mention, but a few, are the order of the day. Such a situation is a very fertile ground for corruption to thrive and cannot be allowed to continue. The new land administration system is expected to cost a total of K8.8 billion of which K5 billion has already been released by the Ministry of Finance. The system is expected to be operational by the third month of 2013, but the refinement and tie up of the system will continue up to the end of the 2013. Once the system is operational, the people of Zambia should expect the following benefits:

(i)greatly improved efficiency in land transaction procedures and a reduction in time spent on the issuance of certificates of title as per service charter and that will be within fourteen to seventeen days;

(ii)there shall be guaranteed ownership and security of tenure;

(iii)there will be greater productivity and use of our land;

(iv)there will be easy physical access nationwide;

(v)it will be a system which will provide easy web based services and access;

(vi)there will be easy billing and communication options using mobile phone technology, meaning people will be able to pay the rates and rentals using mobile phone technology;

(vii)there will be a reduced level of corruption and fraudulent practices; and

(viii)there shall be extremely improved levels of customer satisfaction.

Mr Chairperson through these measures, by your hard working patriotic Government, I am confident that …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Simuusa: …the public confidence in the land administration system of this country shall be once more be restored.

My ministry will continue with its core mandate of allocating land to our people, in conjunction with the councils, which are our agents, and traditional leaders. It will also commence a nationwide land audit in early 2013 to ascertain the current status of land in the country. 

Sir, on the Land Development Fund, my ministry will, next year, continue to financially assist councils to open up new areas for development.

Mr Chairperson, one of the requisites for processing of title deeds is a cadastral survey diagram. It is for this reason that my ministry will continue with this important programme so as to ensure timely registration of properties, thereby guaranteeing security of tenure. On international boundaries, my ministry will continue with the work of re-affirming borders, which is important as it prevents unnecessary border disputes.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the National Tree Planting Programme, which was launched earlier in the year, my ministry will embark on a massive afforestation and re-forestation through the National Tree Planting Programme, with special emphasis on establishing provincial and local supply of forest plantations to meet the ever-increasing demand for timber, both locally and within our region. This programme is also aimed at increasing our forest cover. The ministry will also promote public-private partnerships in the implementation of this programme.

Sir, I wish to report that my ministry will, next year, revise the curriculum of the Zambia Forestry College to include emerging issues. The college will also work on its infrastructure.

On Environmental Protection, my ministry, through the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA), will continue to protect the environment from degradation. In this regard, the ministry will develop the wetland and climate change policies. The wetland policy is aimed at promoting conservation and sustainable utilisation of the wetlands resources while the adoption of the national climate change policy will provide a framework for a co-ordinated national response to the challenge of climate change. It will also optimise the use of resources in addressing climate change and enhance the country’s resilience.

Mr Chairperson, with all these measures, my ministry intends to:

(a)contribute an estimated 200,000 jobs towards the one million jobs planned by the Government; and

(b)increase its contribution to the GDP from the current 5.2 per cent to 15 per cent for forestry and 3 per cent to 10 per cent for lands.

Sir, in conclusion, I would like to urge all the hon. Members of this august House to support the 2013 budget for my ministry.

I thank you, sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection policy statement. I thank the hon. Minister for his policy statement. 

Sir, I support the Budget Estimates for this ministry, although I wish to be quick to indicate that, although there is an increment in the allocation from last year, the Ministry of Finance should have favoured this ministry with a bit more money because the task ahead of it of regularising things, as per the statement by the hon. Minister, should have been a reason enough to provide them with more money.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia is a very huge country, like we heard today, covering about 752,000km2, of which 740,000 is land while 11,800 is water. It is important for us to collectively agree that our land tenure system has continued to take the colonial shape. All these thousands of square kilometres that I have mentioned are due for a complete land audit so that we know, precisely, for instance, how many indigenous Zambians have title to this land. For me, it is very important because I come from an era in which Her Majesty the Queen of England decided to gratify certain individuals with our God-given portions of land, post World War One.

Today, it is not a secret that the reason we live in the cities and in squalor is because of that action, on which we will require to systematically start working. All the dormant titled land must be the first to be audited so that land can start being shared equitably with us the traditional owners. It does not make sense, for instance, for us to be enveloped. Lusaka is the biggest city in this country, but it is enveloped by farms. If you are going to the airport, you get chocked when you just get past Chelston, you are in a huge farm. When you are going to the Southern Province, just as soon as you leave Makeni, you are in a huge farm, and these farms are owned by descendants of people who were gratified by Her Majesty the Queen, who is no longer among the living.

Sir, our people are in Kanyama, where the audit the hon. Minister is talking about cannot work. Not at this point in time. That audit cannot work in Kuku and George compounds. I am confining myself to Lusaka, for now, in order to demonstrate that the colonial land tenure system that we inherited is bad, and we must start dismantling it so that indigenous people of black colour like mine can also have the benefits of owning land.

Sir, the issue of title deeds that the hon. Minister spoke about is, indeed, extremely tedious. I want to declare interest, and the hon. Deputy Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection is aware that, for many years, I have been grappling with getting a title changed, but the processes are so tedious. Now, if it is so for a privileged individual like me, what more for an ordinary person? So, what the hon. Minister said goes without saying, and I would like to echo that the idea that this is a recipe for corruption. It is, indeed, a recipe for corruption if we do not quickly get to our drawing board and re-structure the land tenure system. The ninety-nine year old lease land tenure system should now be closed. Let us reduce it because that is a whole generation. In my Constituency, according to the Judge Sakala Commission Report of 1972, it was clear that Mazabuka was chocked and had no extra land because most of the land is on title. On one side is Zambia Sugar Plc, which, obviously, provides employment, and, on the other, what was then called Susuman Brothers, but now Zambezi Ranching. As soon as you descend past the Munali Hills, you see nothing but wire fences and, in some cases, electric fences. None of those farms is owned by an indigenous person. I think that it is only fair that those who have titles to this land and have it under maximum utilisation be left in peace. However, any land that has been idle for the last 100 years must be brought into the ministry’s audit and given to our local people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I now move to environmental degradation. Having over-crowded cities is reason enough to conclude that this why, year in and year out, we suffer from climate-related catastrophes. Take for instance the rains we have had in Lusaka for the last two or three days. On the second day, the headlines were that there was a catastrophe. Satirically, it was a vehicle from the Ministry of Defence that was photographed in the newspapers stuck in a pool of water. This means that we have problems with our city planning. The hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection needs to work with his colleague in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to make things right with city planning for the environment to be protected. 

Sir, I would have been a happy person if I had heard the hon. Minister talk about landfills and dump-sites. In this whole country, we only have one properly-engineered landfill, which is in the constituency of my brother and friend, Hon. Miles Sampa. I heard him the other day offering people K1,000 to help him collect garbage. That is a good initiative, but he is going to burn out because, if I were a Matero resident, I would make recycle this garbage and declare it to him to get K10,000 every day from him. I think that this ministry needs to invest money in landfills in all the district towns. What we have are just makeshift arrangements. We are living in a global village. 

Mr Chairperson, I heard the hon. Minister speak about afforestation, but think that he would have done well had he spoken a little more about alternative sources of energy because he knows, as much as I do, that the people in the area he hails from, I think it is in Singani or Macha, do not have sources of energy other than malasha (charcoal) and wood to use in cooking.

Mr Muntanga: He is in Chingola. So, he has forgotten that. 

Mr Nkombo: We need to address that matter. The issue of modernisation is, of course, important, but I think that it amounts to climbing the tree from its branches, which is practically impossible. What is being modernised? We need to be given alternative sources of energy by promoting things like bricketts and twigs so that people can move away from dependence on fossil fuels. 

The issue of deforestation is real in this country. The hon. Minister spoke about an aerial view of how the Government wants to map out things.  I looked at an aerial map of Zambia twenty years ago and last year. The effects of what has happened due to degradation of land and deforestation are too ghastly to contemplate. I appreciate the hon. Minister’s crusade for tree planting. It is definitely a good move and we must encourage every responsible citizen to go into planting of either indigenous or exotic trees as a revolution. We should not forget that climate change, which the hon. Minister also talked about, is a global phenomenon which is here with us. 

Sir, as long as the Government does not address the issues that I spoke about regarding city planning, landfills, highly-urbanised cities and unplanned settlements, the effects of climate change will be extremely difficult for us to mitigate, let alone, adapt to. I think that the hon. Minister of Finance needs to help Hon. Simuusa because the money allocated to his ministry is chicken feed or nothing compared to the amount of trouble that we are in, as a country, relating to severe climatic conditions. The Southern Province is now becoming a desert, and our colleagues across should not think that this will only affect those in the Southern Province. In any case, they support the UPND. The desert started from Namibia, but it has reached Lusaka. It is coming this way to Chingola, where the hon. Minister migrated to.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Therefore, I urging the hon. Minister to continue on his current path and ensure that the policy that he designs for his ministry benefits the lowest of the low in our society. I truly believe that modernisation and computerisation are part of the story, but let us not climb a tree from the leaves, instead of the trunk.

As I conclude, Sir, let me comment on the issue of land titles. I expected that the hon. Minister would say that his ministry would de-centralise the issuance of title deeds. His colleague, who was seated here not long ago, Hon. Yaluma, I think, was the first PF hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. He sat where Hon. Simuusa is seated and said that officials in the ministry wanted to fast-track his title deed, but he refused. He claimed to have told them that they should not do this just because he was an hon. Minister. One year later, the current hon. Minister is singing the same song. However, what I expected was the hon. Minister of Finance to give this ministry funds to assist it with decentralisation of the issuance of titles so that the issue of councils offering the same piece of land to more than one person, which has been part of the reason for delays in issuing title deeds could be circumvented. So, the decentralisation of this function to provincial headquarters could be the beginning point. 

Sir, I know that all the land is vested in the President, but we have to do the right thing. My advice to the hon. Minister is to start with the decentralisation process. Move the issuance of title deeds to provincial headquarters, but this should be connected to the ministry’s central network at the headquarters. An example is the way the Government has started issuing plate numbers in all districts, thanks to whichever hon. Minister of whatever ministry. The nomenclature is a little mixed up. This ministry should try and do the same so that title deeds can be issued at the provincial level with a view that, maybe, twenty years later, you can issue a title deed even at the district level.

Sir, with those few remarks, I want to thank you for allowing me to debate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, I wish to, very briefly, support to the budget of the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. First and foremost, I would like to indicate that the funding which has been given to this ministry is not enough. I know that the resource envelope is small but, looking at the importance of the ministry, it needed more than what has been given to it. 

Mr Chairperson, my view is that we should start looking at this ministry, because of the natural resources part of it, forestry in particular, as an economic ministry because it is capable of generating income and contributing to the GDP of this country. Currently, we do not treat it that way. Obviously, the importance that the Government places on this ministry is not that much. So, I would urge the hon. Minister of Finance and other colleagues to look at it as an economic ministry.

Sir, I like the determination and passion that I have seen in the hon. Minister in the running of this ministry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: I hope you will keep up the spirit. We will support you as long as you keep maintain that passion for this ministry, of course, with your hon. Deputy Minister.

I would like to briefly talk about the issuance of title deeds. I hope the zeal that you have taken to the ministry will help. There has been a big problem in the issuance of title deeds. As Hon. Nkombo said, there are times when there is double allocation of title deeds to one piece of land and manipulation. At one time, I declared interest over land that I was given. There was double allocation. I will not mention where it is, but it is outside Lusaka District. There was double allocation. I was promised to be given another piece of land, and when it was found, some people were interested in it and there are now delays. The next thing I will be told is that this piece of land belongs to somebody else. So, you should try and work hard and ensure that the issuance of title deeds is dealt with.

There are squatters who have title deeds. When they go to the ministry, they are referred to go to courts of law or the police. My advice is that some of those people are not capable of going to courts of law because they do not have the money. Maybe, this ministry, in conjunction with other ministries, can work out some mechanism of helping squatters. 

There was mention in the policy statement that the ministry will carry out a land audit. I hope it will reveal some anomalies that are obtaining on the ground. Headmen, particularly in rural areas, give large chunks of land to the so-called investors and get title deeds. Some of the land is even beyond 250 hectares and it is only the President who should sanction beyond that. However, there are some who have title deeds to land that is more than 250 hectares. 

Let me now talk about natural resources, which is the forestry industry. This can be an economic sector. The House is aware that the hon. Minister was recently in Finland. Finland solely depends on the forestry industry. The size of the forestry that they have is much less than what we have in this country. So, if we utilise our forestry properly, we should be able to generate enough income for this country. I was happy with the ministerial statement that was delivered in the House the other day about what the ministry is going to do, particularly the forestry. I urge you to make sure that it comes to pass.  

With regard to the Lands Tribunal, which is in your ministry, it takes a long time for this tribunal to make decisions. I am aware of cases that have taken more than five or six years and no decision has been made. Find out the root cause of this. This is frustrating because, when a case is taken to a tribunal, you expect a quick decision to be made or justice to prevail. Justice delayed is justice denied.

Another area is the environmental protection in your ministry. I urge you to liaise with your colleague in the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. For example, in Kasempa Constituency, a lot of people are involved in mining. They leave trenches and open pits after exploration. I know that there is a law to this effect. Once mining is done, they are supposed to cover the pits, but they do not do that. So, that is part of environmental degradation. 

There is also the issue of garbage damping. It is part of environmental protection to be looked at. The ministry has completely neglected the electronic waste garbage. What do we do with things like cell phones, computers and television sets that are obsolete? What mechanism has the ministry put in place so that they do not affect our environment? 

Lastly, you mentioned about the management of the wetlands. Yes, we have so many wetlands. One of them, which I am particularly interested in, is the Lukanga Swamps. We need to manage that wetland and other swamps. Lukanga Swamps is being eroded.  It is a place which the ministry should take care of and see how it can be managed. 

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for according me the opportunity to support the budget presented to the House by the Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. 

Mr Chairperson, land is the basis for the economic development of our country, especially at the district and constituency levels.  In Kaputa, there is land that has been surrounded not only by the three major lakes, but also which was set aside in the early 1930s for the conservation of wildlife. Basically, it is land that is in a game management area. The people of Kaputa live in a game reserve. This has created a lot of difficulties for them. At the moment, there are conflicts in certain areas. People cannot cultivate the land because it either belongs to the national park or forestry. So, I urge the hon. Minister to help the people of Kaputa. They should work with their counterparts in the Ministry of Tourism and Arts so that this land issue is resolved once and for all. The previous governments tried to resolve this issue. The former hon. Member of Parliament for Kaputa, Mrs Nalumango, raised this issue not only on the Floor of this House, but also in the ministries, but it has not been attended to. If people have no land, then it becomes a recipe for conflicts among themselves and the wildlife in the area. Let a solution be found as quickly as possible.

Let me now talk about the international boundary. Kaputa borders with the Democratic Republic of Congo. There are always skirmishes. It is a boundary that has brought about a lot of problems because of lack of proper beacons. We have the beacons that were left by our colonial masters, both the English and the French. Despite those, at present, the boundaries are in totally different places. The people of Kaputa are extremely worried. 

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Ikala, iwe.

The Deputy Chairperson:  A point of order is raised.

Mr Ng’onga: The people of Kaputa are extremely worried.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune:  Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to raise a point of order.  Is the brother who is on the Floor in order to insinuate that we were once colonised by the French? 

I need your ruling, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the border he is referring to is between the DRC and Zambia, he is correct because the French had something to do on other side of the border and on our side, it was the English.   

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, this border point keeps worrying us and we need our Government to quickly move in and ensure that it is either marked or explained to the people of Kaputa. Our friends in the neighbouring country are very aggressive. If you give them one portion, they will take double what you have given. As I speak, there is an area called Kapingu Enclave or Kapingu Village which was an area in Zambia, but is now habited by our colleagues from the other side. This land issue is worrying the people of Kaputa. Therefore, the Ministry of Land, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection is extremely important. We want it to do something in order to bring this issue to an end.

Mr Chairperson, may I also speak on the Land Development Fund which the hon. Minister ably talked about. This is a very good initiative. I know that there are many councils that have actually benefited from this fund. However, I take it as a challenge that this fund has not been explained properly to all councils, including Kaputa, because we have never benefited when it has been running for some time. I challenge the hon. Minister to ensure that councils, especially those in rural areas like Kaputa, understand exactly how this fund is obtained because we would want to open up some areas and let the people benefit from the Land Development Fund. 

Mr Chairperson, as regards the issue of environmental degradation, we have a lake which is called Lake Mweru Wantipa which is between Lake Tanganyika and Lake Mweru on the Luapula side. This lake has been drying consistently as a result of climate change, either as a result of global warming or the change in the environment patterns. 

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: May we consult less loudly?

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, the drying of this lake has been worrying us, and therefore, we need the Government through the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection to be able to take keen interest in this issue. Once this lake mass, which caters both for Kaputa and Chimbamilonga, and I think it inhabits over thirty thousand people, dries up, it will definitely be a disaster in waiting. 

Again, the people of Kaputa challenge the ministries that are concerned to find resources very soon so that we can ameliorate the situation. One of the solutions is a simple solution one which just requires the opening up of the water source at Kalungwishi where this lake mass gets its water from. It requires excavation and could be done in one action year. It does not need to be done for many years and this is the more reason that I would like to invite hon. Ministers that are given these portfolios to visit Kaputa so that they can be able to recognise the pleas and cries from the people of Kaputa, especially concerning their plight as regards land. We also want to benefit so that we can develop our area.

Mr Chairperson, the national tree planting programme is a very good programme. It is a programme that will benefit, not only our colleagues or people in the southern part of Zambia, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Ng’onga: … but the people that are in the extreme north where some of our land can also be regarded as being threatened by the desert phenomenon. However, for us in Kaputa, we wish to view this as a challenge and we will work with you, hon. Minister, so that we can fully participate in the planting of trees. However, I challenge the hon. Minister to empower us with the officers that can help us in the planting and management of trees. In the previous Government, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Allow the hon. Member to debate

Mr Ng’onga: The previous Government, gave us an officer to supervise the forestry in Kaputa but based in Kitwe. I think that is a recipe for failure. You cannot be based in Kitwe while you are supervising the people in Kaputa over a thousand kilometers away. We would want this to change so that if there is anybody to supervise the forestry and tree planting, we must have this person stationed in Kaputa so that he can work with the people.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Muntanga, raise your point of order, you wanted to raise a point of order.

Mr Muntanga: I want to debate.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You may debate.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I support the budget which has increased from K66.5 billion to K115.6 billion. That is an increase of K49 billion. When you consider these figures, you know they have increased. Unfortunately, it is a ministry that has grown from being just Ministry of Lands to Ministry of Lands Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. 

I support you, hon. Minister. I like what you said. Listening to you gives hope. However, what is on the ground does not give hope. We have talked about auditing land, but you have not done anything. I would have wanted that when we talk about land natural resources and environment, we should include agriculture. For whatever you do on land, agriculture has a big role to play. Whatever you discuss on the environment, agriculture is there. In Zambia, we have a tendency to avoid agriculture when dealing with agriculture and that is a problem. This audit should not be concentrate on small houses and compounds because these are already known. We have evolved from crown land, freehold and leasehold to where we are. Perhaps some of you may have forgotten. One of the major aspects of independence was land. There were songs that were sung and I can remind you of one of them.

Hon. Members: Sing!

Mr Muntanga: Inyika tiali ya mabunu nja chikanda chinechine nja chikanda chisiya. 

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: What is the meaning of that?

Mr Muntanga: It means that this land is not for Boers, but Africans. That was a very strong statement. There is no question that anyone who was fighting for independence without land in issue did not know what he was doing. It was land that was the major aspect. It is this thing that made everyone fight. Land can bring about revolution. 

Hon. Minister of Land, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, you have the job to protect land interests. I have heard hon. Ministers say they are going to clean up the ministry, but we still have problems there. You are sitting on problems there. It does not matter whether you are an hon. Minister or a Member of Parliament, if you do not move personally things will not move. I can give you examples because I believe in following issues to see where the bottle neck is. So far, you have tried to clean up. Your customer service now is much better than it was although we are still crowded, but you have not made customer service a department. You are using people borrowed from other departments to service customers.  

You should check their commitment. You need to create a separate department for customer service so that people can go there to explain properly what they need. So many people have land, without knowing the rules which govern its ownership. Some people are sitting on land which they have not been authorised to occupy. You have a young Commissioner of Lands who is doing very well. Some time ago when I walked into that office, I found heaps of documents in the Office of the Commissioner Lands. The office used to look like a registry one.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, now when you go there, you will find that the heaps have been cleared. However, he is still faced with a few problems. I have faced some difficulties when  dealing with that office. Hon. Minister, you should get concerned with the operations of every department there. I want the hon. Minister to know the operations of every department in that office. 

Mr Chairperson, the Surveyor-General’s office is also faced with some problems. The Surveyor-General must be reminded that he should watch over the work of the surveyors, including the private ones. Private surveyors are the ones causing the problem of two people having one title deed. There is a nasty incident which happened. A surveyor was told to divide two properties which were developed just after independence. This surveyor did the work in his office. When the people went to the place to find out on site how the demarcation was done, they found that the line he had drawn was going into a factory. He did not divide the two properties properly. The dividing line runs into a factory.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, when they asked the surveyor whether he had gone to the place to inspect it, he said yes. They asked him why the dividing line went right through a factory. How could he have done that if he had gone to inspect the site?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, you will find such a surveyor will always be causing problems without the hon. Minister doing nothing about them. That is not pleasant. Hon. Minister, if you have to run this ministry properly, you need to stop blaming the Commissioner of Lands who may have issued a title deed because he believes that everything was done properly by the Surveyor-General. The surveyors deceive the Commissioner of Lands him by generating wrong papers. They sit in their offices and do not go to the actual sites. The land business has been made to be very attractive such that everyone wants to make money out of it. Quacky lawyers are rushing to get involved in it. Even your officers sitting there want to make money from land transactions. We should put a law in place which will put an end to land speculation. We should stop land speculation. For instance, someone may get land for nearly free from the council and then try to sell it the next day for US$ 35 million. In Kalomo, one of the investors got land next to the river, and after he got the title deeds to the land, he went and advertised on the internet that he was selling land in Kalomo. He developed nothing on the land. That is why I wanted to sing a song for you which talks about this land being for Africans.

Hon. Opposition Members: Sing it again!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am not saying that I hate white people. I want to tell you that there are white people who did not leave at the time of independence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Like Guy Scott.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, in the Southern Province, Kalomo in particular, thirty-five white farmers ran away because they did not want to be ruled by a black person. Therefore, we had thirty-five empty farms. President Kaunda simply took over. Do you remember the 1967 Watershed Speech? He took over the land and created State farms there. Now, that the land has been given to the people, I want to urge you to ensure that whatever is done on the land is serious. I want you to coordinate with the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock the activities which will be carried on this piece of land. When some men want to increase production on their land, they cut the trees and clear the land. Is that acceptable environmentally? Before independence, conservation officers used to work hand in hand with agriculture officers. The component of land use planning in agriculture should be reinforced. Those in agriculture should work well with you. You should be able to decide now how much land each person should hold on to and for what purpose. Such decisions have to be made. You need a certain type of land to be used for ranching and to know which areas to use. What have you decided on what type of land to be used for what purpose? Some lands were meant to be for agriculture, but they are being used for building houses. They are being turned into suburbs. What are you doing?

Sir, one of the major aspects in agriculture, under the New Partnership for Africa's 
Development (NEPAD) and the Comprehensive African Agriculture Development Programme (CAADP) arrangement, is land. So, what are we doing?

Mr Chairperson, for this ministry, this money you have budgeted for is not enough because it is an important one. The work of this ministry should support our plans for the agricultural industry. Telling us that you are going to audit is an indication that you have not yet decided on how much land is supposed to be used for what purpose. What auditing are you going to do? We want to know how much State land and customary land is there because these are the two types of land which we have. 

The system has collapsed such that the officers at the ministry do not know which land is for what.  At Independence, we knew how much land we had under the traditional setting and how much land was State land. The Office of the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection is the one which should process the processes the conversion of land into State land in collaboration with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. If the  Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection had all the necessary information, it can be deducting from customary land and adding to State land.

Mr Chairperson, when we ask your officers how much State land and traditional land is there, they say that that they do not know. What the hell are they doing when they are not able to explain such things?

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the word ‘hell.’

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: I will substitute it to ‘what were they ever doing?’

Mr Chairperson, it is the true that there is no record-keeping. Confusion and chaos is a very conducive environment for corruption and theft. 

Sir, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to have meetings with his officers. You have some dedicated officers who mean well and try hard to do the right thing while there are others who deliberately hide files so that those want to carry out a transaction can cough a bit of money. My file was missing for some time, but I still refused to pay the officers at the ministry some money. I just told them that I was going to see the hon. Minister. After saying that, when I went to see the Commissioner of Lands, I found the file which went missing for two weeks was found, but without an explanation.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Muntanga: I took the trouble to go to the registry office to ask the officers there to show me where the file was. I was told that it was in a box. I asked an officer I found there if it was supposed to be in a box. He said it was supposed to be in a filing cabinet. I asked him why it was found there. He told me that it was because they wanted me to pay them first.

Mr Chairperson, we are now approving these funds because we want to support the work which your ministry does. However, I should also add that we want your staff to perform.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: It is not a question of being partisan. Do not even say that they are MMD. You can remove all the staff you perceive to be MMD and replace them with those from the PF whose work performance I think will be worse. Already, you have one who has been drinking beer for US$2000.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: So, this shows you that even if you change personnel, the ones you will bring in will still be Zambians. It does not matter who is in which office. The best thing to do is to tell the staff to own-up. We should not wait for people to expose the wrongdoings. I understand why the President shifts one department from one place to another. He is worried as to whether you are with him. Land must not be used for speculation purposes even by senior people in the Government. The hon. Minister and his deputy should be the ones sorting our problems. They should not be moving around simply to show that they are working. That is not working. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, that is practicing corruption because all they want to do is show people that they are doing well. However, when they leave, they will not have achieved much. There are some other nationals, who I will not mention, who have created departments to sell land. They look around for any free land in Lusaka. Ask me afterwards and I will tell you the names. I warned one of them to stop what they were doing before I debated them in Parliament to reveal what they are doing. I know he is listening and I want to tell him not to repeat it.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: We appreciate those that are working hard. Tell all these juniors who are playing around that the time for games is over. Let us all move forward together so that we can all be singing for our land which belongs to all of us.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to commend the hon. Minister for his policy statement to support the budget. He has been very straight and non-controversial. He has given us a clear vision of what he intends to do next year. For this reason, I will spare him from follow up questions when we start looking at the individual items.

Laughter 

Mr Namulambe: I will only rise if there is a very critical situation.

Mr Chairperson, there is no increment in the allocation to this ministry. I heard a hon. Member mention K49 billion without stating that this figure is as a result of the additional responsibilities which have been given to the ministry because of the realignment of the various ministries. So in essence there is no increment per say. This ministry deals which deals with land is very important. It is for this reason that this ministry should be given a lot of resources.

Sir, after we see what this ministry is going to achieve as a result of the policy statements the hon. Minister has given and the funding which it has received, we will demand that the ministry be given more funding. If we see the same figures we are going to have to move amendments.

Mr Chairperson, When I was in Kalomo, I went to a place called Makalanguzu. I was not happy there because the people have been displaced in their own land and yet the people who own land in Kalomo are not indigenous Zambians. Let us not talk too much about Kalomo and concentrate on Mpongwe. 

Mr Muntanga: I do not mind.

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, there is a farm in Mpongwe which has got over 66,000 hactres of land. Within that land lays Mukanga North Resettlement Scheme. One wonders how a resettlement scheme can sit on another person’s title. What is further disheartening is the fact that this farm was initially a State owned farm. 

However, because of the loans that the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government got, it was sold by the Zambia State Insurance Corporation to two white people. These two white people used the title to get more loans to develop other farms elsewhere and not in Mpongwe. A chunk of that land is still unutilised. I thank God that the owner of Dar Farms is doing something on that land although he is not the sole owner of the land. The people of Mpongwe have been wondering why part of that land should be sub-divided and given to them. It is for this reason that I am interested in President Robert Mugabe’s land reform policy. I think that policy should also be implemented in Zambia. We have seen that the people that own land in Zambia are not indigenous Zambians. Their pieces of land are quite big. They are now selling their pieces to make money which they want to use to develop their areas outside Zambia. I do not know if there is any Zambian who owns such pieces of lands in this country. It is for this reason that I want to support the land audit exercise. 

Sir, if you come to Mpongwe, I will lead you to farms that are idle. There are people who just acquired land to use it as collateral to get loans and the money is taken elsewhere. I think it is high time that we repossess land from people who are not doing anything on it. Land is wealth. It is pity that as Zambians, we do not even have that land. I do not support things anyhow. I want to inform you that I am going to support this Vote wholeheartedly. If it means fighting to repossess that idle land, we will do that together.  These foreigners come with very good project proposals of how they are going to develop our land, but once they are given the title deeds, they even abandon their promises. They do not even care about the social responsibilities which they promised when getting land from the council. I think it is high time that we repossessed land which is owned by people who have just come to milk us out of own land. We will not go anywhere. The population in Zambia is increasing day by day. Where are the Zambian people going to go if there is no land in Zambia? 

Mr Chairperson, let me go to another thorny issue. I think Copperbelt Province is the only province where we have got plantations such as pine ones. At the rate we are going, Zambia will soon start importing timber because of the indiscriminate manner in which timber is being cut. The rate at which we are replanting trees is very low. This is why I am very sad to see that in the Budget, there is only a paltry K1 billion to support the Provincial Tree Seedling Production. This means that with the ten provinces in Zambia, each province will only have K100 million to support this activity. What is this amount of money going to do? It is for this reason that we are saying that we should increase funding to this ministry. The people who are responsible for planting trees should ensure that they do it. At the rate we are going, in the next five to ten years, Zambia will start importing timber. This will be very costly for us. Let us encourage people to plant trees such as such the pine and exotic species. I think this is going to help us. 

Sir, you can see that even the rain pattern has changed. We are now depending on the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) air because of the trees there. Once the people start cutting the trees in DRC, we are going to get affected. Let us start to plant trees in Zambia as well. I want to encourage the people that have commercial farms to start planting trees. With the prepaid meters that have been installed by the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation Limited (ZESCO), people have resorted to using charcoal. The prepaid metering system is encouraging charcoal burners. 

A charcoal burner now has a ready market, but the effect of charcoal burning will be very grave for all of us. Therefore, I the forest rangers, who were once called bakapenda mabula, to start being feared by the people again. These days, the bakapenda mabula are not feared because the enforcement of the Forest Act is not there. Further, I do not think that the establishment of forest rangers is adequate. We should have more of them, and they should work with the police to discourage charcoal burning.

Mr Chairperson, at my village, there are some people who got land whom we have warned that, if they cut trees without replanting trees elsewhere, they would be chased away from our village. We did this because we are trying to discourage charcoal burning, which has got grave side effects that will affect us. With the climate change that we are witnessing, it is important that we preserve trees, especially the indigenous trees, which are very important to our country. Therefore, we have to protect the natural species that we have. In some countries, you cannot find the tree species that we have in Zambia. It is for this reason that people who come to get big chunks of land have difficulties developing them. They enjoy watching these trees.

Mr Chairperson, I want to implore the hon. Minister to make tree planting a responsibility for every person in Zambia. It must not be left to the Government alone. Every must plant some trees every year.

Mr Chairperson, on the land development fund, much as the hon. Minister has been giving funds to the councils, he should ensure that the councils collaborate with the Department of Physical Planning in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing because, sometimes, this money is not put to proper use. I have in mind the money that was given to Masaiti District Council. The council tried to clear some land but, after spending money on that activity, some trees started growing again. We should make sure these funds are properly used when we disburse them. There are some councils that put this money to good use, but others do not, and must be punished. On the other hand, councils that utilise the funds prudently should not be asked to apply again, but given some more money because they are able to make use it effectively. Let me request the hon. Minister to monitor the utilisation of the funds that are given to district councils.

Mr Chairperson, my last point is on the survey department, which is responsible for drawing maps in Zambia, including the Chiefs’ maps. It is in that ministry that the so-called Fifty-Nine Maps are domiciled. Even the narrative descriptions are in this ministry. 

Sir, the current chiefdom wrangles are a result of the lack of chiefdom maps. Let us release the maps as the chiefs have demanded. What is the fear in releasing these maps when they are there? In case you do not know where they are, you should ask us. We will lead you to where we got some copies because it is important that these maps are released. The habit of making promises in this House that the maps would be given out by some date, but not doing so when that date comes, must end. You are now in the Government. Do not continue making promises. Just act because we are tired of promises.

Personally, I am very bitter about the fact that the maps of chiefdom boundaries have not been released. We are being requested to help settle boundary disputes, which are a source of conflict in chiefdoms and we are aware that, where conflict exists, there is no development. It is, therefore, high time we resolved these disputes that have engulfed the various chiefdoms. In Mpongwe Constituency, almost all the chiefs have boundary disputes. Worse still, Central Province has encroached into the Copperbelt Province. For example, Kansankala, under Central Province, is part of Chief Machiya’s chiefdom on the Copperbelt. Can we ensure that we take the boundaries to where they are supposed to be because we do not want to encroach into other provinces. This department must be adequately funded so that it draws up the maps. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to support the budget line for the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency and Luwingu District, as a whole. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to adopt the debates of Hon. Nkombo and Hon. Muntanga as my own ….

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … in a number of respects. 

Mr Chairperson, land is a factor of production and, if well-managed, can actually lead to a lot of economic development. 

Sir, I want to dwell more on traditional land, which is a source of concern. I hope and trust that the ministry will look at it and see how best to develop clear guidelines for its administration. In the name of investment, traditional leaders are being swindled out of their most valuable asset, land, and it is important that we sit down with the traditional leaders, through the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, and educate them on the value of land. It is not beneficial for our chiefs to grant huge tracts of land to investors and displace the indigenous people just because somebody has tarred a road. If we do not educate our traditional leaders, we will end up displacing our people who, in turn, will rise against the very Government that they voted for and, eventually, we will have civil strife, which we can easily avoid by guiding the traditional leaders. 

Mr Chairperson, there should be clear synergies among the Ministry of Local Government and Housing; the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs; and the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection for effective administration of traditional land so that, even when we turn this traditional land into state land, we are able to explain, very clearly, to our traditional leaders. At times, traditional leaders are also taken unaware by the investors. They do not know that the State is getting part of their land. I, therefore, wish to appeal that, as we implement the 2013 Budget, we address this particular aspect. 

Mr Chairperson, , I wish to state that surveyor services are very expensive for an ordinary man in Lupososhi Constituency, Kasama Central, Malole and Nyimba, especially when a poor man is asked to go and hire a private surveyor. They are actually ripped off and not able to pay these surveyors. It is important that we equip our department and get qualified human resource to travel around the country and assist that poor soul in Chifunabuli Constituency, and assist the Luwingu District Council to offer its services at an affordable price. These services have, actually, eluded the people of Lupososhi Constituency and Luwingu District. Therefore, the bigger part of that land is not surveyed, but people have built houses and do not even know where their boundaries are. Therefore, my appeal to the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection is that he makes these services affordable so that we can all access them and be able to have our title deeds which are clearly-defined.

Sir, I am glad that the hon. Minister has stated that the ministry is computerising and coming up with new systems for information management. I hope that this will help to de-congest the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection and, indeed, help the Commissioner of Lands to be able to attend to other equally important issues, instead of sorting out issues of title deeds and missing documents all the time. There has been a lot of congestion there, as earlier mentioned, but this must come to an end. Yes, it is true that the current Commissioner of Lands is doing very well and needs to be supported because, previously, it was very bad.

Mr Chairperson, I think that, if we move fast, in terms of the issuance of title deeds, we will help to reduce corruption. The longer you delay the issuance of title, the more you create fertile ground for corruption. It is important that we speed up some of these things, and decentralisation is very critical. Let us be visible even at the district level, especially the Department of Survey. If it can reach the districts, it will help to reduce some of these conflicts that we keep facing.

Sir, with these few words, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Masumba (Mufumbwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this chance to speak in this honourable House. From the outset, let me start by thanking His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, together with the whole PF Executive for adopting me as their candidate in the just-ended Mufumbwe By-Elections.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Masumba: Sir, during my tenure as MMD Member of Parliament for Mufumbwe, and while serving as Hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing in the PF, I went through several persecution and mistreatment by the party that sponsored me to this honourable House in the first place.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Masumba: The MMD, Mr Chairperson, imposed and made my times very difficult with all sorts of allegations because of serving the people of Zambia through the appointment that I had been given by the Republican President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 30th November, 2012.

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