DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday,6th December, 2012

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

HON. OPPOSITION MEMBERS’ ALLEGATION OF BREACH OF PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURE BY THE HON. MR SPEAKER IN RELATION TO MEMBERS NOT BEING ALLOWED TO ASK QUESTIONS AND POINTS OF CLARIFICATION ON THE STATEMENT BY THE VICE-PRESIDENT REGARDING THE ALLOCATION OF FUNDS TO THE FIRST LADY

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that on Friday, 30th November, 2012, I received a note accompanied by sixty five hon. Members of Parliament signatures who raised concern that the procedure of the House was breached when hon. Members were not afforded an opportunity to ask questions and points of clarification on the statement made by His Honour the Vice-President on Friday, 30th November, 2012 in relation to the allocation of the sum of K1.5 billion to the First Lady. The Hon. Members’ note also expressed the view that I had protected His Honour the Vice-President from answering questions on a policy statement and that they eventually concluded that I am allowing Parliament to be used by the Executive to break the law and abrogate the Constitution.

Hon. Members, in response to these concerns, I wish to guide the House that at the time I allowed the Vice-President to make a further clarification on the matter, the Vote relating to it had already been extensively debated and passed by the House. The House was, therefore, in my opinion, functus officio. Therefore, in so doing, I merely used my discretion to allow for further clarification on the matter. Let me remind the House that under Standing Order No. 39 of the National Assembly Standing Orders, 2005 Edition, a matter that has been considered and disposed of cannot be reopened unless the decision has been rescinded by the House. 

Hon. Members, the statement made by His Honour the Vice-President was in the first place not a ministerial statement or a policy statement, but merely a clarification as I said when the point of order was raised by hon. Member for Kalomo Central, Hon. Muntanga. What I said is as follows: “You will recall that this matter was earlier dealt with when the Vote was being debated and an explanation was given by His Honour the Vice-President, but to put the matter beyond doubt, I will allow the Vice-President by the close of the week to come to the House and just clarify his position.”

Thus, after the statement was made, I used my discretion in stating that any other questions on this matter could only be included as part of the Vice-President’s Question Time. Consequently, two hon. Members asked the Vice-President questions on this matter. The statement of clarification could not be debated on its own as that would have been against our Standing Orders which prohibit a matter to be reopened if already resolved by the House. Therefore, in my opinion, there was no breach of the rules of procedure for questions to be asked on the matter during the Vice-President’s Question Time after His Honour the Vice-President’s clarification. Furthermore, the issue of my office violating the Constitution of this land or indeed breaking any laws of this land in concert with the Executive branch of the Government as alleged by the concerned hon. Members does not in the circumstances arise at all.

Hon. Members, let me seize this opportunity to assure the House and the nation at large that I have taken quadruple oaths before the citizens of this country to uphold and protect the Constitution. First, as a legal practitioner on admission to the bar, second, on admission to the rank and dignity of State Council, third, as a Justice of a superior court of record and lastly as Speaker of this August House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, these oaths weigh very heavily on my conscience and in fact, inform my actions. They have always informed my actions in my entire twenty-seven year career as a lawyer. I need not adduce evidence in this forum. It is in the public domain. 

Hon. Members, I therefore, earnestly hope that this response puts this matter to a close.

I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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THE MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

RESPONSE TO THE POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. LUBEZHI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR NAMWALA ON THE INCONSISTENCES OF COLOURS OF THE ZAMBIA NATIONAL FLAG

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me time to give a response to the point of order raised by Hon. Lubezhi on 25th October, 2012, on the distortions or inconsistencies of colours of some of the Zambian National Flags being sold in shops and on the streets.

Sir, as correctly observed by the hon. Member, the use of the National Flag is regulated by the National Flag and Armorial Ensigns Act Chapter 6 of the Laws of Zambia. The use of the National Flag is subject to the provisions of this Act in so far as they prohibit the ridicule or bringing into contempt of the Zambian Flag.

Mr Speaker, the Act does, however, recognise the use of the Zambian Flag or part of the design for commercial purposes. The commercial use of the flag is done with the authorisation of the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry pursuant to Section 4 which provides for the prohibition of the improper use of the National Flag.

Sir, the use of the National Flag bearing colours that are not completely identical to those specified in Chapter 6 of the Laws of Zambia does not automatically bring it into contempt although it does contravene the specifications of the colours under the Law.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to note that due to the liberalisation of the economy, a lot of companies and individuals have ventured into the business of making flags or incorporating flags in their artifacts. This has, inadvertently led to the mushrooming of formal and informal dealers, hence, compromising the quality of the flags being sold in shops and on the streets.

Sir, global advancements in information communications technology have made the world one global village such that what is taking place in one country is viewed by many people worldwide and carrys with it both positive and negative influences. National flags have worldwide become symbols of patriotism and a public display of oneness. This is commonly expressed worldwide at large gatherings like sporting events. 

As for Zambia, the lifting of the Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) Trophy heightened the use of the flag as a sign of belonging to the winning team and country. I am sure you will agree with me that the single event was such a unifying force in the country and the flags in question are now a fallout of our unity and victory.

Mr Speaker, it is our belief that this is the spirit in which the Zambian Flag has been used and does not in any way bring it in ridicule or contempt.

Sir, given this global trend on the use of the flags as symbols of patriotism, as Government, we would like to encourage further dialogue on this matter with the view of reaching consensus with all stakeholders on whether there is need to review both the principal Act and subsidiary legislation such as Statutory Instrument No. 69 of 2011, to accommodate new trends.

Mr Speaker, it is, however, important that as Government, we are as vigilant as possible and ensure that the National Flag is reproduced by licensed persons in compliance with, or as closely as possible to the colours prescribed by the Act.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu:Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise this important point of order that hinges on the dignity of this House and that of Cabinet.

Sir, this morning when His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia was swearing in commissioners for the Teaching Service Commission, he told the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education and those who were being sworn in that those who have no hair …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … look like bandits and criminals …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … who are not fit to hold office, and that if he was given an opportunity, he would not have sworn them in. 

Sir, I have noted with concern that there a number of my colleagues on your right who have completely no hair, …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … are serving in this particular Government. Are they in order not to adhere to the advice of His Excellency the President by not resigning from their positions because they look like bandits and criminals in the mind of the President? Are they in order to continue serving in Government? I seek your serious ruling.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

I would not rule them out of order because I am not sure whether they have not yet tendered in their letters of resignation.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member for Kalomo Central, please continue.

Mr Muntanga:Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has admitted that people have produced Zambian Flags in inconsistent colours that do not match what is stipulated in the Act. Although he encouraged this, surely, can His Honour the Vice-President and Government consider requesting the people who make flags to ensure that they bear the correct colours because soon, we shall have flags all over the country which do not depict the actual Zambian flag?

The Vice-President:Mr Speaker, my understanding of this statement is that it does not encourage the use of wrong colours. It simply acknowledges that we have had some laxity in the following of regulations in the area in question and that we should sit together with those who in the business of manufacturing flags to find ways of making them comply with the law better. There are many laws in this country with which are not being complied with. Some of them, I would give priority over than thediscolouring of flags. For example, I would regard with high priority the regulations on being drunk and driving.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, as much as we appreciate the point that there are so many laws in the country which are being abrogated, especially, under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, I still think that the law which at least deals with the identity of this country, which is the National Flag should be adhered to because it is a serious constitutional matter. Why have they decided to ignore the law?

The Vice-President:Mr Speaker, I have to repeat thepoint that we are not ignoring the law. We are not saying that the situation is alright. What I said in the statement is that we do not doubt the motives of the people who manufacture the flags. We do notthink they want to bring Zambia or the Zambian Flag into contempt and ridicule. We do not believe that they are malignantly oriented, but we do accept the fact that there is a problem which we should attend to.I thank the hon. Member for bringing the point of order to our attention forcibly. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, most Government departments and some of chiefs’ palaces across the countryhave no Zambian flags. Does the Government have a deliberate policy to make sure that it distributes flags to important Government institutions?

The Vice-President:Mr Speaker, that is another question. Asking such a question is something like trying to find out the colour of the cat and that of the mouse at the same time. However, I believe it is the responsibility of the provincial administration to purchase such things. We shall look into that issue.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

DEVELOPMENT OF TOURISM IN THE NORTHERN PROVINCE

287.Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Tourism and Art: 

(a)how much land has been allocated for the development of the tourism industry in the Northern Province, from September, 2011 to date; and

(b)whether any funds meant for walking paths at the Kalabo Falls were misappropriated by the provincial authorities in Kasama and , if so, which department misappropriated the funds.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism and Arts (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, so far, the Government has not allocated any land for tourism development in the Northern Province. However, the Government will continue to support the development of the already-identified area for tourism development known as Kasaba Bay, which covers a 4025 hectares and has been divided into three zones, namely:

(a)Sumbu National Park;

(b)Tondwa Game Management Area (GMA); and 

(c)Nsumbu and Yendwe areas, which are development zones outside the protected area.

Sir, the project area is located between Lake Tanganyika, in the North-East, Iyendwe Valley, in the East, and the hills, in the North-West up to Kapisha Hot Springs. The House may wish to know that there are twenty-one investment sites already identified under the project for potential tourism development activities.
Mr Speaker, the appropriate response to the second question can be obtained from the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, which is the one that looks after heritage sites, including Kalambo Falls in Mbala.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, the Northern Province is quite large, and a number of its areas have not yet been identified and developed for tourism purposes. When is the ministry going to identify and develop such sites?

Mr D. Phiri Mr Speaker, I clearly stated that the total hectarage that has been identified as an investment site is 4025, which is quite large. However, many areas in the Northern Province have already been identified. I specifically mentioned twenty-one sites.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, when will the twenty-one identified sites be developed?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, these sites are readily available for investment. We are calling on citizens who are ready to invest there to take advantage of the incentives that have been given by the Ministry of Finance and invest in those areas. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, Kalambo Falls is the second deepest falls in Africa. How much importance is the Government placing on this site?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, I totally agree with Hon. Simbao. This, indeed, is an important falls which we need to develop. However, as I said, the falls are under the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. What I can confirm, though, is that there has been money allocated to the development of the falls and there are on-going works there. The construction of ablution blocks, path ways and shelters are in progress. 

Sir, we, as the Ministry of Tourism and Arts, are very interested in this and we are working closely with the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to develop this important falls.

Mr C. Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, it is obvious that whoever is going to develop this land will need a licence. What is the ministry doing to make it easier for the local people to obtain licences to develop these sites?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, there is no difficulty in investing in these sites. Forms are readily available at our ministry and I encourage anyone who is interested to come forward and apply.

EXPENDITURE ON BY-ELECTIONS

288.        Mr Njeulu (Sinjembela) asked the Vice President how much money was spent on by-elections from January to July, 2012, by the following:

(a)the Electoral Commission of Zambia;

(b)the President’s campaign team; and 

(c)the Vice-President’s campaign team.

Mr Speaker the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) spent K8,021,712,453 on by-elections from January to July, 2012. The Government of the Republic of Zambia did not spend any money on the President’s campaign team during by-elections between January and June 2012. However, a total of K241,568,020 was spent on local Presidential tours. Further, the Government of the Republic of Zambia did not spend any money on the Vice-President’s campaign team during by-elections between January and June 2012. However, K154, 475,000 was spent on official and delegated local tours.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, was the President carrying out local tours when he appeared in areas where there were by-elections?

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, the law provides that the President may visit the site of a by-election using the same vehicles and aircraft that he or she uses when they are merely visiting an area where there is, for example, a humanitarian tragedy. The same rule applies for the Vice-President. It is impossible to distinguish between the two. 

Mr Speaker, when I go into a district, I am immediately surrounded by district officials and end up being followed around by twenty or thirty vehicles. This happens whether one is electioneering or not. How you can distinguish the influence that the President or Vice-President might have on an election by virtue of their presence, from the influence that they regularly have is an impossible question to answer. If hon. Members want to change the law to exclude presidents from areas where there are by-elections, then they should address the issue. I do not think it is a soluble problem.

Sir, I tried to spend one night alone in a tent halfway to Lusaka. However it turned out to be impossible because I ended up having thirty two people camped with me and they built huge fires. I was hoping to see an elephant in the night, but I did not even get to see a snake.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Thank God.

Laughter

Mr Belemu (Mufalali): Mr Speaker, looking at the amounts that are being spent, is there a way in which we could through you, is there a way to reduce on the amount of money spent on elections?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that is a problem that should be dealt with by the whole House. It is not easy to regulate any aspect of this business because you do not want to restrict communication between the top leadership and the people. At the same time, in order to save money, you would wish to restrict the degree of luxury in which it takes place or how often it takes place. The problem is difficult and needs the combined intelligence of this House even to just approach it.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, when His Honour the Vice-President was on this side (left) of the House with us, he was very strongly against …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member complete his question in silence.

Mr Muntanga: … the idea of the Vice-President and even the President using Government planes to go to areas where there were by-elections. For the sake of consistency, could he not have considered ensuring that his routine visits did not take him to places where there were by-elections so that his commitment to eliminating the practice is demonstrated?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that was a long time ago and I will have to …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … go through the Hansard and recover my former opinions. It is a good idea and I will consider it.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given by His Honour the Vice-President, when will the PF Government stop inducing by-elections so that it begins to focus on service delivery, especially to the rural areas.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Sir, I am not sure I understand the question. We have, on that (left) side of the House, people who are helping us with governance, about a dozen members of parties other than the PF and only one or two could be described as induced or even by-election products. I think that we have the hon. Member for Chama North and the hon. Member for Mufumbwe, and that is about it, in terms of inducing by-elections. We are not interested in inducing by-elections but, rather, in being able to govern.

I thank you, Sir.

_________{mospagebreak}

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2012

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

APPENDIX 1 – (Section 2)

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Appendix 1:

(a)on pages 5 and 6 

by the deletion of paragraph 3 and the substitution therefor of the following paragraph:

“3.    Chapter 40 is amended by the insertion, immediately below subheading 4011.20.00, of the following subheadings:

Heading No.    H S Code    Description of Goods    Statistical    Duty    Remarks
No.            Unit of     Rate
            Quantity

    40.11.20.10    Of a kind used on     Kg    Free    
        Buses or lorries and
        Having a rim size of
        50 cm to 57 cm 
        (19.5 to 22.5 inches)

    4011.20.20    Other    Kg    --

(b)on page 7 

(i)by the deletion of paragraph (k) and (l); and

(j)by the re-numbering of paragraphs (m), (n), (o) and (p) as (k), (l), (m), and (n), respectively.

Amendment agreed to. Appendix amended accordingly.

Appendix 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

Title agreed to.

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2012
    
Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6 − (Repeal and Replacement of Section 74)

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, on page 4, in line 32, by the deletion of the word “tax” immediately after the word “same” and the substitution therefor of the word “income”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7 − (Amendment of Section 78)

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7 on page 6:

(a)in line 1,
by the deletion of the word “ by”;

(b)in line 2,
by the insertion, between “a” and the word “the”, of the word “by” and 

(c)in lines 15 to 17,
by the deletion of paragraph (b) and the substitution therefor of the following:

“(b) in subsection (2), by the insertion, immediately after the words “each month”, of the words “or part thereof”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (Amendment) BILL, 2012

Clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 − (Insertion of New Section 50 a)

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 4, in lines 19 to 30:

(a)    by the deletion of the marginal note and the substitution therefor of the following marginal note:

“Tax information exchange agreements and mutual assistance in tax matters”; and 

(b)    by the deletion of subsection (1) and the substitution therefor of the following new subsection:
    
(1)    “The President may enter into an agreement, which may have retrospective effect, with the Government of any other country or territory for the exchange of information on tax matters or for mutual assistance in tax matters with the objective of rendering reciprocal assistance in the administration and collection of taxes under the tax laws of the Republic and such other country or territory”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE ZAMBIA DEVELOPMENT AGENCY (Amendment) BILL, 2012

Clause 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.  

CLAUSE 4 – (Amendment of Section 82)

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move that the Bill be amended with the insertion of a new Clause after Clause 3: 

Amendment    of section 82    

4.    The principal Act is amended by the deletion of subsection (3) of section eighty-two and the substitution therefor of the following subsection:

(3)    The Minister may, by statutory instrument, after consultation with the Minister responsible for finance, amend the Second Schedule to the Act.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

___________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2012

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2012

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2012

The Zambia Development Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2012

Report Stages on Friday, 7th December, 2012

REPORT STAGE

The Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2012

Report adopted.

Third Reading on Friday, 7th December, 2012.

____________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 89 − (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock Development − K K1,748,707,015,072

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Chenda): Mr Chairperson, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was just about to give a total estimate for the Livestock Development Disease Prevention and Surveillance Programme. Sir, a total of K175.5 billion has been allocated to the programme. 

Sir, the Fisheries Development …

Interruptions

Mr Chenda: Order! Order you ladies!

Laughter

Mr Chenda: … Programme is equally an important intervention in our agricultural diversification programme. As you may be aware, the domestic demand for fish and fish products far outstrips supply. In order to enhance fish production, we have allocated K12.1 billion for aquaculture development and management, as well as K7.2 billion for capture fisheries development. Other interventions include the construction and rehabilitation of fish farms and the setting up of refrigeration facilities for the cold chain. The total allocation to the Fisheries Development Programme is K55.2 billion.

Sir, regarding agri-business and marketing, I wish to state that small-scale farmers lack the capacity to negotiate for better prices that will increase incomes for their produce. Often they are exploited by some out grower promoters and traders who offer commodity prices that do not reflect the cost of production. The recent case of cotton farmers is a classic example.

To protect farmers from drastic declines in commodity prices, my ministry will establish a Crop Price Stabilisation Fund in 2013. A total of K3 billion has been allocated to the fund.

Mr Chairperson, the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) has faced many challenges over the years. These include poor targeting of beneficiary farmers and high administrative costs. In order to streamline the implementation of FISP, my ministry will introduce the electronic voucher (E-Voucher) system in ten districts during the 2013/14 agricultural season. The policy shift to the E-Voucher has the following advantages:

(i)it will increase the participation of the private sector in input supply and distribution particularly among agro dealers, which will lead to wealth and employment creation;

(ii)it will free up our extension workers to do their core work;

(iii)it will give farmers a wider choice of subsidised inputs;

(iv)it will reduce Government’s involvement in input procurement as agro dealers will get inputs directly from the suppliers as normal private sector business;

(v)it will create efficiency and improve timelines of input distribution which will translate in cost savings by the Government; and

(vi)it will improve targeting of the beneficiaries.

A total of K110 billion has been allocated to E-Voucher piloting.

My ministry will provide inputs to the rest of the target farmers and a total of K377 billion has been allocated for this purpose.

Sir, as a ministry, we are ware of the challenges in agricultural marketing such as lack of a comprehensive agriculture marketing legal framework, undeveloped infrastructure such as secure storage facilities, limited capacity among small and medium scale traders and farmers in agriculture marketing.

In order to address these challenges in agricultural marketing, I will introduce to this august House an Agricultural Marketing Bill in 2013, whose main objectives among others will be:

(a)to increase access to markets by persons in the agricultural sector;

(b)promote the efficiency of marketing agricultural products and services;

(c)enhance competitiveness of agricultural products and services in the regional and international market; and

(d)facilitate an efficient private sector driven agricultural marketing system.

In addition, to ensure food security for our people, my ministry will facilitate the procurement of strategic food reserves through the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). Our plan is to restrict the FRA to the maintenance of strategic food reserves while promoting private sector participation in agricultural marketing. A total of K300 billion has been allocated towards the procurement of strategic food reserves.

Mr Chairperson, agriculture research is an important element of our Agricultural Productivity Improvement Programme because it provides modern technology for crop, livestock and fisheries production. In 2013, our research will focus on the following:

(i)irrigation development to generate and adapt appropriate technologies for sustainable agricultural productivity;

(ii)conduct research on conservation agriculture and organic farming as well as crop diversification; and

(iii)developing high yielding, disease tolerant and adverse climate resilient crop varieties for increased productivity and production.

A total of K10.4 billion has been allocated to research activities in 2013.

Sir, in order to create an enabling environment for the implementation of the above programmes by Government and the private sector, my ministry is currently reviewing our National Agriculture Policy (NAP) in consultation with all key stakeholders. The revised NAP will be submitted to Cabinet for approval in 2013.

Mr Chairperson, our co-operating partners continue to support the sector through financing various programmes and projects in crop, livestock, fisheries and agri-business as well as agricultural infrastructure. In 2013, the ministry will receive a total of K295 billion from our co-operating partners to support these programmes. I wish to express my ministry’s appreciation for this support.

Sir, in concluding, I wish to state that investing in agriculture as a strategy for job creation and poverty reduction will continue to be emphasised by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government because of the importance that the sector plays in our economy.

This can, however, only be achieved with increased and sustained investment to the sector by Government, the private sector including farmers themselves and with the support of co-operating partners.

My ministry will, therefore, through a multi-sectoral approach endeavour to work very closely with these key players to ensure that through our concerted efforts, especially in this House, we all contribute to putting in place a vibrant and viable agricultural sector that contributes to the well-being of our people.

Mr Chairperson, I now humbly ask this House to support the 2013 Budget for the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Chairperson, I will start by stating that the hon. Minister’s address was a good one, but I am sure you all know that words cannot be the same as deeds.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: So, since agriculture is key to the development of this country, we need to pay a lot of attention to its development. I think just to remind the Government, nshima, Mr Chairperson, is the food that the people of Zambia enjoy eating. Thus, I telling those who are in Government about that point in case they were not aware of it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairperson, on the issue of agriculture like I have said several times before, for us to move forward, I think we need to make sure that youths are empowered so that they can grow maize and in turn, contribute to bumper harvests.

  Looking at what has been transpiring, I feel that we had not planned properly. I would therefore, like to urge the hon. Minister to prepare adequately so that in the next crop marketing exercise, we do not see what we are seeing currently whereby people are even losing their lives in a bid to sell their produce. We want the next crop marketing exercise to be straightforward. We want people to be paid their money on time so that they can buy their inputs and be able to cultivate their land properly next season. That way, the farmers will plant their crops on time. This will result in a bumper harvest just like the way it was when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was in power. There was proper planning then.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairperson, we need to put a lot of effort on infrastructure development. Let me now talk about the budgetary allocation to crop marketing. I am not very sure whether the K300 billion which has been put in the ministry‘s budget will be enough to deal with crop marketing. I say so, because not too long ago we were being told that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) would borrow money to pay the farmers who had supplied it with maize. We have seen a lot of confusion in the just ended crop marketing season. I think, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock needs to look at issues to do with crop marketing seriously. Perhaps this amount can be raised in the next Budget so that we do not see a repeat of what happened during the just ended crop marketing period.

Sir, on the FISP, there is not much news regarding this programme. We just saw that it was flagged off and yet in our constituencies, we are not seeing the inputs being delivered. Where the inputs are being delivered, the only people benefiting from the programme are just cadres from the PF. We have received information that our people in the MMD are being sidelined when it comes to getting farming inputs. If they receive anything, it is just maybe a meda. I do not know …

Hon. Government Members: What is meda?

Mr Kunda: Meda is a gallon. Through such an allocation, one would not be able to harvest enough food to see him or her through the whole year and even be able to sell some of that crop. We need to be serious about such things. Like I said, nshima is the staple food in Zambia. Sir, we need to put a lot of effort in the development of agriculture. You can see that the prices of mealie-meal are going up and in some places, there are shortages of the commodity. If there are shortages this time of the year, what more when we get to February or March? It will be disaster. That is the reason we need to pay attention to our efforts to develop the agricultural sector.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I would like to support the allocation to the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock and urge everyone to put a lot of effort in ensuring that next season, we are not caught unawares.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to support this budget. I am particularly concerned about fisheries development in this country. However, I like what I heard from the hon. Minister responsible, in terms of capture fisheries as well as aquaculture and the allocation, thereof about K72 billion. However, I would like to bemoan the inadequate funding that we have seen in the past, especially in relation to patrols. When it comes to enforcing of the fish ban, the resources have been extremely inadequate and the exercise has not yielded the intended results. In Nchelenge Constituency, we have breeding grounds which are not properly patrolled. We had an exercise, which started in the last quarter, to remove settlers in the breeding areas, and that was done by two committees. This was the district joint operating committee as well as the provincial joint operation committee. However, because of inadequate funding, there have not been patrols recently and as a result, the settlers have started going back to the breeding areas. So, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to establish a permanent patrol team so that we allow fish to breed in an environment of peace so that we can successfully have capture fisheries contributing to our Gross Domestic Product (GDP). I am appealing to the hon. Minister to give us enough funds so that these settlers do not go back to the breeding grounds. With these few words, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: That is good.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the 2013 allocation for the ministry of agriculture. However, I quickly wish to state that this budget falls far short of what we expect. It stands at 5.24 per cent of the total Budget. Zambia is a signatory to the Comprehensive Africa Agricultural Development Programme (CAADP) Protocol which it signed in 2003 in Maputo, Mozambique. It will be ten years next year after the protocol was signed. We have not met what we agreed to in this protocol. There were a number of issues that were agreed. We agreed to raise the budgetary allocation to agriculture to 10 per cent. The other agreement was that the Government would endeavour to increase growth in agriculture to the level of up to 6 per cent. The governments at the Mozambique meeting also agreed to raise the actual nutrients given to the plants from the average 8kg per hectare to 50kg.The governments also agreed that they were going to raise production from the 2.5 tonnes per hectare to 4 tonnes per hectare. Apart from agreeing to raise the total number of cattle that are reared, the governments also agreed to improve the fisheries sector.

Mr Chairperson, I am concerned that Zambia only recently became signatory to CAADP. There are only three countries in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region that are signatory to this programme. Other countries are dragging their feet. In West Africa and East Africa, however, some countries that signed on to this programme earlier have met the requirements for support and increased their agricultural production by 5 to 6 per cent, the best being Burkina Faso with a 21 per cent increment in agricultural output.

Mr Chairperson, I want the ministry to realise that CAADP is a programme has US$22 billion that the G8 or G20 countries provided to support the development of agriculture in Africa through the African Union (AU). Zambia can benefit from that. The AU implements this programme under the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD), but Zambia is not benefiting because it has not come up with programmes to qualify for funding.

Mr Mwamba walked in.

Hon. MMD Members: GBM!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, it is quite sad that, currently, there is only a desk and one officer in the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock to handle this programme. How can we manage to access CAADP funds for agricultural development that way? This programme has four pillars of agricultural improvement and investment, one of which is, ‘Sustainable land and water management’. However, we are not doing anything to make improvements in that regard. We do not have enough money in the Budget to construct dams and hold water, although a few have been constructed by the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. 

Mr Chairperson, if we do not have money to construct dams, the hon. Minister can come up with programmes to enable us access funds under CAADP for sustainable water management. However, we seem to be dragging our feet, as a country. We all talk about agriculture being key to economic development, but we are not coming up with the programmes that are required? How do we manage or sustain agricultural development if we do not do this? We are all in agreement that we need to increase agricultural production in order to ensure food security.

Mr Chairperson, we have tried to give agricultural inputs under the FISP, and raised the amount of fertiliser given to each farmer from 8kg to 27kg. However, that, alone, cannot increase the yield for a farmer who is cultivating a half hectare of land. The records in the ministry show that this has been proved to be impossible. Out of the 900,000 farmers who are supported under FISP, 28 per cent only have a half-hectare of land. They do not produce enough to feed their families. Therefore, they cannot even harvest a surplus to sell. They actually start purchasing food from other farmers to cover the deficit for consumption. 

Mr Chairperson, therefore, the idea of supporting farmers cultivating a half-hectare under this programme is not good. From the available information, farmers who are cultivating five hectares are the ones making a profit through FISP and making meaningful returns. There is no hope for those with half hectares to graduate to a higher level. They will not even realise the expected 2.5 tonnes per hectare. Maybe, one tonne. Therefore, if a family consumes two bags of maize per month, twenty-four bags will be required for the whole year. If they produce twenty bags of maize, it means that they will have to buy the four bags short.

Mr Chairperson, the K500 billion provided for FISP entails that we will only support a few farmers, and that will not help the situation at all. We will need to look at something different.  The hon. Minister talked about reviewing FISP, and I hope that the ministry will do a thorough review and look at ways to help those with half hectares to increase their production. The viable farmers are those who are cultivating four or five hectares. It is well-known that the less the land a farmer has, the less food-secure they are.

Mr Chairperson, any farmer having land under one hectare always has a problem with food security. Under CAADP, land is a factor. However, what the ministry is doing in making arable land available is not good. It has gone to Nansanga and created farming land, but in big chunks that can only be managed by large-scale farmers. What should have been done is to cut this land into five-hectare pieces. I am sure the records in the ministry indicate that farmers with five hectares are economically viable and make money. This was going to enable our people to access more land for cultivation.  

Mr Chairperson, with these big farms which are meant for large-scale farmers, how are we going to reduce poverty among our small-scale farmers?  I am aware that certain areas in the Southern, Central and Eastern provinces do not have enough farming land. However, where there is abundant arable land, such as the Western, Luapula and North-Western provinces, is where the poverty levels are highest because the programmes being implemented there are not helping the people we call farmers.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance should consider increasing the allocation to this ministry to 10 per cent of the National Budget. He should not just copy and paste figures from previous Budgets. That is not sustainable or progressive. Poverty levels in rural areas are around 80 per cent, yet we talk about developing agriculture, but we do not mean what we say. We are not sincere and do not give this sector enough money.

Mr Chairperson, furthermore, the Government is talking about livestock development and, in that regard, re-opening Chishinga and Kalungwishi ranches. We have opened Mbala Ranch and are thinking of re-opening some other places in Senanga. When the MMD came into power, these state farms were running. Chishinga Ranch was destroyed through the privatisation arrangements of the MMD.

Interruptions

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, Kalungwishi was a beautiful ranch with grasses similar to the Kafue Flats, but it was destroyed through the same arrangements. The Government now wants to go and re-open it and try to run it. Why do we want to make mistakes every time, instead of doing the right thing? We have been telling this ministry that we need to re-introduce cordon lines in order to control animal diseases. However, because of politicking, this has not been done.

Mr Chairperson, there was money allocated for the construction of the cordon line, wires were bought and new tractors were provided, but it has been abandoned. I do not where the tractors and wires are. How do you control? You cannot just go and declare that this is a disease-free zone like it was done in Central Province. Disease control measures have not been put in place and people are transporting cattle from Southern Province via Mumbwa. The basic measures have not been put on the ground. Again, it is money involved. 

Sir, this House recommended that a Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development be created, but the PF Government discarded it. The Government is not serious.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga:  I know that some people think that the best is to eat meat. Meat processing needs to be improved. That is why the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development has to be re-created. Do not argue against what I am saying. Botswana has arid land, but its Government makes a lot of money from livestock. Why should we always be the tail? We should learn from our friends. 

Mr Chairperson, we have a problem. Why are farmers paid in August or September, when, for example, money must be secured now for next year’s season?

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, there is no way the ministry can pay K200 billion in a month to farmers, unless all banks are involved. A bank can only pay to a maximum of K1.5 billion to a group of 140 farmers. So, if K100 billion is set aside for payment of farmers, and you are only allowed to pay K1.5 billion a day, how many days are you going to take to disburse everything? 

There is an outstanding amount of K17 billion for the Southern Province now. Whether they want it or not, the FRA and the banks will take not less than eight days to pay. Meanwhile, people are camped at various depots in the cold because you did not plan in advance to source money for buying the crop. We know that K2 trillion will be spent on agriculture, but K300 billion has been budgeted for. Meanwhile, the balance has not been sourced. When the time to look for money comes, the hon. Minister of Finance has problems even to just guarantee. Why do you work like that? I think that the late President was right when he said that there were people who had the tendency of causing chaos in agriculture. Now, I understand. They are there. 

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: So, please, be serious and assist the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate.

Mr Chairperson, we all know the importance of agriculture which has, over the years, contributed greatly to the growth of the economy of Zambia. We recorded a bumper harvest in the past five years. A bumper harvest, for some people like the hon. Member for Kabwata, whose constituency is in the urban area, is maize, but it means so much for a person like me from a rural constituency. The bumper harvest contributed greatly to the welfare of the rural people. We saw an improvement in the livelihoods of the people at the community level. There was also good income, not the ‘fake more money in our pockets’ slogan, but real money, and credit goes to the MMD.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: This bumper harvest did not come by accident. It was a result of the good policies of the MMD Government. One of those policies which the PF Government has failed to sustain is FISP. 

Sir, the mismanagement of agriculture affects the whole nation. We have already seen the mismanagement of agriculture by the PF Government, especially with regard to the price of mealie-meal. There is a statement in the paper that the shortage of mealie-meal has extended to Solwezi and the prices have gone up, all because of the mismanagement of agriculture. Agriculture should be managed well because it borders on food security. Therefore, it is very important to our nation and, indeed, an important sector to the growth of the economy.

Mr Chairperson, in November, I raised a point of order on the Floor of this House on the management of FISP in the hope that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock would make a statement to this House, but I was asked to raise an urgent question and the hon. Minister, through the media, made a statement to the effect that the situation on Omnia and Nyiombo had normalised. I stand here, today, very disappointed, and want to report to this House and the nation at large that the situation at Omnia and Nyiombo has not changed. As of yesterday, the two companies had only been paid 30 per cent for the supply of the 180 metric tonnes of fertiliser. Today, the hon. Minister released another 14 per cent, which brings the total to 44 per cent. This is sad because the two companies have refused to release any fertiliser more than the 44 per cent that they have been paid. This means that the planting window is almost coming to an end. As an Agronomist, I know that, by 15th December, 2012, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Ms Kalima: … the planting season would have come to an end. Yes, those whot want to take the risk could plant until, maybe, the end of December. Since the Government has not paid Omnia and Nyiombo, farmers will have a crisis. I do not understand why the PF Government should behave in such a manner.  

Mr Chairperson, previously, there was a very senior member of the Government who is now under the PF Government who made us feed on yellow maize. I hope that will not be repeated. I do not want to mention the name, but we all know because, in my language, we say, “Kumuchulura dzina ni kudya naye”, meaning that you can only mention someone’s name if you feed with them from the same plate or pot. We all know who made us feed on yellow maize.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir

Interruptions

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Let him raise his point of order.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, as you have noticed, I am sitting here and listening very attentively to the debate of the hon. Member who, right at the start of her debate, mentioned my name …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: … and now, she has just said that in her mother tongue. Mentioning somebody means that you eat with them.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, is that hon. Member in order to mention me without also saying where we eat together?

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: I seek your very serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

The Chairperson: My serious ruling is that, maybe, she is in the process of asking you to go and eat with her.

Laughter

The Chairperson:Hon. Kalima may continue

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I urge the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that money is released quickly to Omnia and Nyiombo. We do not want to feed on yellow maize as we did about fifteen years ago. To be subjected to the same, would be very unfortunate. I can assure you that at the rate we are going, if the situation is not corrected, we will be feasting on yellow maize next year. What I am saying is the truth. So far, only 44 per cent of FISP has been released. 

Mr Chairperson, I further want to urge the PF Government to stop pointing fingers. Yesterday, I sat and wondered how the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education kept talking about what his Government inherited from the MMD. Two years down the line and they still want to point at the MMD. I wish they could have pointed at somebody when we had the maize crisis. All I am saying is that we do not want to see this finger-pointing game.

Dr Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

Let us hear the point of order. 

Dr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, after you ruled very correctly that we should wait until she invites Hon. Lubinda to eat with her, she wants me to participate in the eating.

Laughter

Dr Phiri:At no time, in my statement, did I refer to the MMD. In fact, I was very generous in my statement. Is she in order to implicate me in her eating-together game?

Laughter

The Chairperson: I would have no problem. Maybe, she wants you to be a second invitee to go and eat with her.

Laughter

The Chairperson:Hon. Kalima may continue.

Ms Kalima:I am saying that can the PF Government take responsibility and stop pointing fingers and playing the blame game. Recently, they were saying it was the millers, then the FRA.  We have even seen the crisis extend to the FRA which has been made to sell at a price lower than the procurement price.

Mr Chairperson, I just want to emphasise this because farmers have gone through a lot. We saw that the cotton prices were terrible and the marketing season was also horrible.Already, most of the farmers have not been paid. Therefore, their only hope is the FISP. If FISP is handled properly, these farmers have hope for next year. 

Mr Chairperson, budgeting is a very important process. However, you will note from this Budget that the PF Government does not consult. Why am I talking about consultation?If they consulted, they would have not put cotton seed without a pack of chemicals and fertiliser because that is just a waste. Cotton goes with a pack of fertiliser and chemicals. Already, you can see that because of lack of consultation, they have not done anything.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: It appears he also wants to be invited.

Laughter

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I also surely need to be invited.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Mine is just a point of advice. I would like to advise the hon. Member …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to keep talking so close to the microphone to the extent that it is irritating our ears.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: I think that everyone is feeling that. May I have a serious ruling,Sir.

The Chairperson: She will take that point of order into account as she debates.

The hon. Member may continue.

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I take note. I just want to state …

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the 
Chair]
Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was emphasising the need for the Government to ensure that Omnia and Nyiombo are paid. The earlier this is done, particularly this week, the better for the poor farmer.

Mr Chairperson, the success of the agriculture sector depends on political will, determination, and commitment. Without these three elements, there can be no success. I, therefore, implore the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock to ensure that these three elements are present if he wants to succeed in the agriculture sector, especially that it did very well under the MMD Government.

Mr Speaker, in my language, there is a saying that goes,lonjedzo inadulamuthu Yohane …

Laughter

Ms Kalima: This means that John’s head was cut off because of a promise. The PF Government, during the campaign, promised farmers that it was going to give them fifteen bags of fertiliser, translating into three limas. I have searched the current Budget and the subsequent one and the allocation towards FISP is still inadequate. If anything, it has reduced slightly to K499 billion. As to how the PF are going to achieve their promise is not known. However, I would like to remind the Government not to take Zambian people’s quietness as foolishness. To the contrary, they are very alert and you will remind them about their promises. In Chama, Mufumbwe and Msanzala, people voted in numbers because they hoped that the PF would deliver on their promises.Since I have seen, in the Budget, that there is no hope for that, I want to remind them that the Zambian people will also remind them about their promises and they will be held accountable.

I have seen  that the hon. Minister of Finance keeps coming with amendments. I urge him to come back to this House and amend the allocation toFISP to include the fifteen bags of inputs equivalent to three limas as per campaign promise.

Mr Chairperson, agriculture should be nurtured like a baby for it to succeed. 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, finally, I would like to talk about something that I am very passionate about although it may not seem related to the issue under discussion. I lament everyday over the headmen who the PF Government has decided to leave out deliberately from the distribution of inputs to senior chiefs. I expected the headmen to be given, at least, a free bag of fertiliser and a 10 kg bag of seed. Why am I talking about the headmen being considered? 

When we go to a village, the headmen receive us and look after us. They are the custodians of the people. Therefore, they should be considered for farming inputs. You can give them, at least, a bag of fertiliser. I want to urge the hon. Minister of Finance to come back to this House and include this amendment on fertiliser input for the headmen to ensure that they are looked after, considering that he has been bringing many amendments. Although this will not be as much as you have done for the other chiefs, you will have done something for the headmen too.

Mr Chairperson, I want to conclude by saying that we do not want to see the PF Government bouncing like a ball. Today, I heard the hon. Minister talk about the e-voucher. Earlier, he spoke about the e-voucher and I reminded him about it with a question, and he reversed his statement. I hope he will keep his word this time around as he implements the 2013 Budget. Budgeting without implementation is nothing. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubasenshi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to debate on the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock’s policy statement on the agriculture sector’s budget.

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, let me appreciate some of the positive issues that he raised in his statement, which include his effort to partially reform the FISP through the warehouse system, which is very important, and the improvement of the fisheries and livestock sectors.

Mr Chairperson, we need to match our words with actions. The agriculture sector plays a very important role with regard to creating economic opportunities, economic growth and poverty reduction, particularly in the rural areas where the majority of our people engage in agriculture as their main economic activity.

Mr Chairperson, when you talk about taking people out of poverty, this is one sector that should be considered seriously to achieve this. This can only be done if we do what has to be done by ensuring, as Hon. Muntanga said earlier, that a minimum of 10 per cent of the Budget goes to the agriculture sector.

Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Minister made his statement, I thought that he would show how the policy statement is linked to the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP). He needed to show a link between his statement and what is contained in the CAADP which Hon. Muntanga referred to earlier.

Mr Chairperson, if there was a link between the SNDP and the CAADP under the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD) framework or approach, the PF Government would be informed on issues that it needs to prioritise in the Budget and the funds that need to be allocated. For example, under CADDP, there are four pillars that need to be prioritised. One of these pillars is land and water management. It is important, at this time, that we should be taking into account climate change and how it will influence agriculture, how it can be used as a development challenge and what type of interventions we should make in that regard.

Mr Chairperson, the other pillar under CADDP is market access. When I talk of market access, I am basically talking about infrastructure such as feeder roads, storage facilities as well as electricity. I waited patiently for the hon. Minister to make reference to the President’s Speech when the President opened Parliament this year. The president talked about the construction of silos in each province. However, I did not hear this in the hon. Minister’s statement and I have not seen any allocation in the Budget for the construction of silos in the provinces. Market access is also about ensuring that we create opportunities for the rural people by promoting agro-value chains or agri-businesses so that we can create incentives and linkages between the urban and rural economy. To do all this, we require sufficient funding. We also need to be able to create key performance indicators in these programmes instead of merely making statements that are not backed by any informed research. This is why I am talking about creating a link between the SNDP and CADDP. We also need to realise that if we want to reduce poverty, the agriculture sector is key to the millennium development goals (MDGs), particularly MDG No. 1 which talks about reducing poverty by 50 per cent by 2015.

Mr Chairperson, the other pillar is food supply. This pillar is about value addition, food supply and hunger. It is about ensuring that there is food security at the household level. This is where crop diversification comes in. We should not focus all our energy on a single crop and that is maize. I have stated before that the MMD made a serious mistake, when it came into office, of killing the co-operative movement in this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, we all know who was at the forefront of killing the co-operative movement. Some of them have crossed over to other parties and, today, are blaming the MMD.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, it is very important that we take steps to enhance the capacity of institutions that deal with agriculture. The FISP has become a conduit of corruption. Almost everyone is involved. There are people who are being investigated because of corruption in the fertiliser supply chain.

Mr Chairperson, I remember that Zambia Co-operative Federation (ZCF) was very efficient, to the extent that the National Agricultural Marketing Board (NAMBOARD) was dissolved in 1988 by President Kaunda. During that time, I never saw an empty truck going to collect maize from a rural outpost in Lubasenshi Constituency. When the maize marketing season starts in June, that is the time you are supposed to take fertiliser and seed to the farmers. This way, you will cut the cost of transportation by almost half. However, because of the corruption that is involved in fertiliser distribution and maize marketing, you have a situation were an empty truck goes to rural outposts to collect maize in December, when the farmers should have already received their inputs, and that is when you send other trucks to take fertiliser and seed and they come back empty, and yet you could kill two birds with one stone if you did this differently. However, there is so much corruption involved in fertiliser distribution. This is why I want to caution the new Government to move away from the way the MMD did things. We need to have a new beginning. The only way the Government can do that is to ensure that it excludes politics in maize dealings. The Government should promote crop diversification and livestock in the areas where farmers have comparative advantages. Forcing everyone to grow maize is what perpetuates poverty.

As Hon. Muntanga stated, with the current approach, you cannot reduce poverty. If you look at this year’s Budget, you will be able to see that if anything, there has been a reduction in the amount that has been put aside for FISP. 

Sir, in 2012, the budget for FISP was K482 billion. In the 2013 Budget, what is being proposed is K377 billion. On the other hand, the Government has increased the number of beneficiaries. So, how then are we going to reduce poverty? We will not be able to reduce poverty if you continue with the same approach. We need to move forward by ensuring that we also look at the fourth pillar which is agricultural research.

Mr Chairperson, in the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, I am aware that we have a lot of technocrats who are familiar with the CAADP pillars and what needs to be done. So, I would like to call on the hon. Minister to try and create linkages so that the budget for the ministry is in line with the CAADP framework, SNDP and MDG 1. 
    
Sir, according to CAADP, the agricultural sector should grow by 6 per cent per annum. Once that is done, the agricultural sector’s contribution to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP)will grow to the extent that our economy will grow by 10 per cent growth per annum. That is the only time we can start having a serious dent on poverty. 

Mr Chairperson, your ministry needs to also collaborate seriously with other sector ministries which are involved in efforts to develop infrastructure in the rural areas such as those which handle issues to do with feeder and access roads as well as energy. After that is done, we can create rural growth centres which are linked to the agricultural sector and other supportive sectors in rural communities. Only then can we use the agricultural sector to take people out of poverty.

The hon. Minister should attend to issues which have been raised so that come 2014, he would have created all serious linkages.

Sir, in conclusion, I want to retaliate …

Mr Chikwanda: Reiterate!

Laughter 

Mr Mucheleka: I thank you uncle …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

I know that you want to help, but you should realize it was a slip of the tongue. The word is ‘reiterate’. 

Interruptions 

Mr Mucheleka:Mr Chairperson, if you want to talk about reducing poverty, especially whereby 80 per cent of our people are wallowing in abject poverty in rural areas, you need to put the money where it matters. This is why I want to make a passionate appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that next year the allocation is bigger so that it gives us an opportunity to attend to all the institutional and structural rigidities which are contained in the agricultural sector. From there, the PF will see that indeed people can reduce their own poverty.

With those few remarks, I wish to reluctantly support the budget.

Hon. Government Members:Aah!

Mr Chungu (Luanshya): Mr Speaker, in supporting the budget for the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, I wish to raise a few concerns. I thought that when the hon. Minister came here, he was going to talk about doubling the number of the current stocks that we have from a 1,000,000 metric tonnes to 2,000,000 metric tonnes. This is because the 1,000,000 metric tonnes which we currently have is for direct consumption. What if we had a drought tomorrow? What would happen? We would end up in a crisis as country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Hammer! Hammer!

Mr Chungu: No. I am not hammering. I am advising.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chungu:Mr Chairperson, currently, we are buying a bag of maize at K85,000. That includes transport, fumigation and handling costs. The current maize stock that we have today is at about K85,000 per bag.

Ms Kalima: Yes! Tell them!

Hon. Government Members: Akumfwaiwe!

Mr Chungu: Sir, currently, we have been told that the FRA will be offloading at about K60,000 per bag when millers today are buying maize at K1,300 per kg which makes a bag go for K65,000. So, why should we, within this period of a marketing season lose an extra K5,000 away to a miller when we have already subsidised enough from K85,000 to K65,000? I still think that we need to revisit our current price.

Mr Chairperson, today, we have people that are being given export permits. These permits are being given to people to export maize from the current stock that we have. It is not right to allow people to export the same maize that we are selling at a lower price at a higher price outside the country.

Ms Kalima: Poor planning!

Mr Chungu:Mr Chairperson, the people who are exporting maize use the same permit three to four times when exporting maize. So, when we are talking about having so much stock, we should remember that we do not even have it because most of the maize has been exported by the people who are using one permit three to four times.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Chungu:Mr Chairperson, as regards the FISP, this is a good programme. However, I would rather that the Government starts importing its own fertiliser so that we save some money. Currently, the Government is buying fertilizer from Omnia and Miyombo at about US$37 per bag, which is about K185,000. If the Government had to import fertiliser, it would be making a saving of not less than US$10 which when we save in certain instances would add up to a total of more than US$20 million. The NCZ just needs about US$30 million to be recapitalised. So, why should we not take advantage of that and import our own fertilizer. Doing things that way can make it possible for us to recapitalize NCZ so that at the end of the day, we will have cheaper fertiliser on the market.

Interruptions 

Sir, in this country, the co-operative movement has completely been ignored.  However, I am happy that in the current Budget, we have K1.7 billion that is going towards the training of the co-operative unions. Nevertheless, the issue still stands that we have not used these co-operative unions adequately. 

Mr Chairperson, the co-operative unions were the third largest employers in the country. Why not go back to that system and help these co-operative unions so that they can employ people?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chungu: Let us try to avoid a situation where we have to go back to the National Agricultural Marketing Board (NAMBOD) days. We are all aware that it was run down by one prominent Zambian.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chungu: Let us avoid doing things that way because our people will start complaining. With these few remarks I beg to move.

Interruptions

Mr L. Zimba (Kapiri-Mposhi): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for the opportunity you have given me to add my support to this Motion. I take the words of Hon. Chungu as my own.

Sir, before I begin my debate, I wish to state that certain people asked me to explain exactly how the name Kapiri-Mposhi, which is the name of my Constituency, came about. So allow me to take a few minutes to explain to my hon. Members the history of Kapiri-Mposhi so that they can have an idea of where it came from.

Interruptions

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, Kapiri-Mposhi is a very peculiar name because it is a combination of two names, Kapiri and Mposhi. Do you understand that?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr L. Zimba: Sir, a lot of people pass through Kapiri-Mposhi, therefore, I would like to explain to them the reasoning behind the name so that they may be able to say that the Member of Parliament for Kapiri-Mposhi educated us on the meaning of the name of his constituency.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Zimba, you are eating into you time of debating a substantive issue. I do not think you need to go into detail explaining the meaning of Kapiri-Mposhi …

Laughter

The Chairperson: If possible, please do it quickly and get on with the subject.

Interruptions

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, I will not waste much time. The name Kapiri-Mposhi came form the name Akapili Kakumbonshi. When the whites came they had difficulties pronouncing it so they decided to pronounce it as Kapiri-Mposhi. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, when one was passing through Kapiri-Mposhi a couple of years ago that individual would be able to see hills of maize. The younger generation may not know about those days. During the time I am referring to, it was common to find heaps of maize in Kapiri-Mposhi. That meant that there was a lot of production in the country and poverty was defeated at that time. 

However, when you pass through Kapiri-Mposhi right now, you would not find hills of maize anymore. Where have they gone? Something wrong is going on and we need to correct this situation right now.

Interruptions

Mr L. Zimba: At that time co-operatives were all well organized. I will not dwell a lot on this because most of the debaters have talked about it. However, I would like to thank the First Republican President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, for making these co-operatives very strong. Unfortunately, the MMD has had three parts. The first part of the MMD is the one which destroyed the co-operatives. We are the third part.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr L. Zimba: The people who were part of the first part of the MMD and who are responsible for the destruction of the co-operatives are in Government now.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, at the time when the co-operatives were strong, marketing was very strong. Farmers were getting paid within two weeks time because good services were at the door step. 

However, farmers are suffering now because these co-operatives have gone. I live with peasant farmers and I know how they suffer. When we drink tea with milk here we should not assume that the farmers automatically are also doing the same. The fact that we are fat here does not mean they are fat too.

Laughter 

Mr L. Zimba: We must pay the farmers on time. If it takes nine months to grow the crop and five months to pay them then that makes means it takes fourteen months …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I have been enjoying my elder brother’s debate. He has rightfully explained the genesis of co-operatives and the fact that they were destroyed. However, is he in order not to categorically state which Government did away with the co-operatives? I am not sure when he joined the MMD, but is he in order to continue throwing accusation without giving specifics? I need your serious ruling, Sir. 

The Chairperson: I advise the hon. Member to take that point of order into account as he debates.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, I mentioned that there are three parts of the MMD’s history. I will assume that he knows which part destroyed the co-operative movement.

Sir, when I looked at the Yellow Book, I noticed that the Department of Co-operatives has been allocated K15 billion. This may seem like a lot of money, but in reality it is not enough. I will justify the reason I say it is too small. How do those in Government expect the department to train the people who belong to the co-operatives? We cannot expect the department to train the people belonging co-operatives with this amount of money. We need more funding for this activity.

Mr Chairperson, the director of co-operatives has become non-existent. The K15 billion is not enough for him or her to carryout his or her activities. Stationery and many other things need to be catered for within that amount. What we need to do is to strengthen the co-operatives and give them more funding. Only when this is done, shall we be heading in the right direction. 

Sir, the agri-business department is a very important wing because it deals with the training of farmers. Extension offers must go to the farms to train the farmers well. How do we expect farmers to be trained well with this poor funding? The extension officers in the villages have gone to bed. Instead of them helping the farmers, they too have become farmers. 

Mr Livune: They have gone to bed with the PF.

Laughter

Mr L. Zimba: Sir, if you were to visit the director’s office and ask how much they he or she has been funded this year, you will find that the office has not been funded. The extension officers are failing to move because no money is being given to them for that purpose. The extension service is almost dead. How do you expect agriculture to tick? Extension officers are supposed to train farmers. Farmers are now limited to producing 1.5 metric tonnes of maize per hectare. The extension officers are supposed to improve things, but they are not working. The farmers are stuck with those production levels.

Sir, If extension officers were trained well, they would also train farmers well such that  a peasant farmer would get about 10 metric tonnes of maize per hectare. That would mean that there would be food security all over the country. Peasant farmers are not doing well because they have not been trained well. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to pump more money into the agricultural sector. Production has reduced because of the factors which I have mentioned. 
  
  Sir, my fellow debaters have commented on the co-operative movement, and the next step the Government should take is to have the line ministries; a Ministry of Co-operatives. That way, we will be moving in the right direction. Without that, we will be stuck somewhere.  When we do not have line ministries, there will poverty in this country and, when that happens, even the Government will shake. I am safe here because I am not in the Executive. These things are complicated. I am saying this because, when there is no food in the country, you will not sit where you are. 

Laughter

Mr L. Zimba: Sir, when I went to my constituency, people were very annoyed because of the late payments of farmers. I wished I had gone there with the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock so that he could see for himself. I would, therefore, like to urge the hon. Minister to take care of the farmers and form the co-operatives. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I beg to move.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to make some remarks on the proposals which have been presented by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock. I also want to appreciate his statement. He is a fine gentleman who listens to advice, and I think that, if we help him, he can push the sector forward. We are very happy to have him on our side here (left). 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter  

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I want to contribute by looking at agriculture in two areas. The first is in terms of food and while the other is in terms of its contribution to the economy. 

Sir, food goes beyond what we put in our stomach. It is also about national honour and national dignity. Even in a village, when you have a family that is unable to feed itself, people look at that family with contempt. Similarly, a country that is not able to feed itself is looked upon by other countries with contempt. I remember, in the early ’90s, when we used to import food. I think, we all agree that, when we started eating that yellow maize, it was very degrading to all of us. It showed very clearly that we were unable to feed ourselves. However, perhaps, the episode that, really, touched my heart was the food security situation during the time I was a student in Europe. This was about 1981/1982, and there was a devastating drought in Ethiopia. Many of you will recall that time when human beings looked like skeletons. There was hunger. Some of my fellow students would ask, “………..”, which simply meant, “Do the people in your country also starve?” As an African, it was devastating to see such pictures in a foreign continent.  The matter of food security is not only about feeding ourselves, but also of honour.  

Mr Chairperson, you will appreciate that we, as Zambians, have made considerable progress. Those days, Zambia used to ask for maize from Zimbabwe and South Africa. That was done because we did not have maize in Zambia. Thanks to the MMD Government, …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!    

Dr Musokotwane: … by the time it got out of power, those countries that were exporting to Zambia were now importing from us.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, we made considerable progress. 

Mr Chairperson, it is not just maize. We also saw, for the first in many years, Zambia becoming self-sufficient in wheat. There used to be a time when wheat was considered an exotic crop which was only grown by those sophisticated farmers in Zimbabwe and South Africa. Now, two to three years ago, Zambia was self-sufficient in wheat.

Mr Chairperson, we have also become a major exporter of sugar and many other crops. Zambia’s non-traditional exports are close to US$3 billion, and the bulk of that is agriculture. We, really, made a lot of progress.

Mr Chairperson, I think that you saw the successes on the ground. Today, when you drive from Lusaka to Kabwe, you will see that the villages along that route have been transformed from villages that were made of pole, mud and thatched roofs to those made of burnt bricks and iron sheets. You can see that the quality of life of the people has improved because of agriculture. People are able to feed themselves. Therefore, I would like to advise the hon. Minister not to take it for granted that this self-sufficient food comes automatically. Rather, it has to be worked for. You must have good policies in place so that we do not relapse to the times when we used to import maize. So far, I think, the start has not been very encouraging, but you are in your first year. Maybe, you still have another four years to learn. 

Mr Chairperson, I am sure, you are aware that, today, people referred to your Government as Paya Farmer. 

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, in my understanding, that means to kill the farmer, and people are calling the Government that because, when they look at the distribution of fertiliser, it is disorganised. Fertiliser used to be delivered to the farmers by July and August but, today, it is being delivered in December.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, what kind of expanded output can you expect under these circumstances? Farmers used to be paid on time but, today, as you have heard for yourselves, farmers are still waiting to be paid. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, over the weekend, I was in my constituency in Liuwa. The people in Liuwa are complaining bitterly because the fish that was so abundant has disappeared because, during the campaigns for the 2011 General Elections, somebody promised the villagers that, when his part got into Government, the fish ban to give time to the fish to re-generate would be abolished and fishing would be done throughout the year. As a result, fish stocks have dwindled. 

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, one of the reasons, sometimes, even when you talk about hunger in this House…

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, reduce on the running commentaries.

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, one of the reasons why, sometimes, …

Mr Ng’onga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to rise on this important point of order. I have been listening attentively to his debate. However, is he in order to inform this House and the people that fish can dwindle in one season and completely finish? Is he in order to debate in a manner that is not factual? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: Since I am not an expert on fish matters, I will ask the hon. Member debating to take that point of order into account as he debates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that these natural resources that we have are very important. The reason we do not end up like Ethiopia, even when there is a shortage of maize, is that we have natural resources. There are countries in which, if there is a drought situation, there is not even a kalulu (hare) or warthog to kill. There are other countries where you cannot even cut grass because it belongs to somebody. The reason is that all the land has been cut into small pieces because there is high population. Therefore, there is no longer grass, trees or soil that belongs to God. All these belong to private individuals. Therefore, the issue of sustaining our food security is important, not carelessly telling people, for the purpose of winning votes, that, when you got into power are in power, you would allow continuous fishing.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: We should avoid doing that.

Mr Chairperson, my important concluding part on food security is to urge the hon. Minister who, I know, is a good man, to ensure that Zambia does not go back to the days when we used to queue for things. The signs are bad. We have been hearing about the shortage of mealie-meal on the Copperbelt, Solwezi and Choma. We suffered enough in the 1980’s and 1990’s. Therefore, let me urge the hon. Minister to ensure that we do not go back to those years.

Mr Chairperson, agriculture is also important from an economic point of view. When we listened to the Ministry of Finance’s Budget, we had a target for employment creation for this year of 200,000 decent jobs. Out of that number of new jobs that are expected to be created, this year, 110,000 are supposed to come from the agricultural sector. The target says decent jobs, but, do I get the confidence that, indeed, these 110,000 jobs will be created from the sector?

Hon. Opposition Member: No.

Dr Musokotwane: I am sorry, hon. Minister, but I do not get that impression, and I do not think that anyone here believes that this is going to happen because, first of all, we have all agreed that the issue of input supply is in disarray. Therefore, even at the peasant level, maybe, some jobs are going to be killed.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Secondly, if you are talking about improved agriculture, it comes with the training of farmers. You will agree with me that there are not enough funds in the Budget for doing that. Improved agriculture also comes with technology. Instead of people cultivating with hoes, they need to use better technology. I do not believe that there are sufficient resources that have been provided for in the Budget to achieve that objective. It also requires that we do not depend on rain from God, but that we irrigate. One of the hon. Members, while debating, stated that only about three dams will be built this coming year. Therefore, given all these factors about what you need to improve commercial agriculture, which can feed your industries and provide all the raw materials that you can export, where do we get the confidence that, indeed, the sector is going to expand or that the 110,000 jobs that have been talked about will materialise? I do not think they will.

Sir, this is why, at another time, I said that I did not think that the number of 200,000 jobs was seriously conceived with somebody making proper analysis and detailed plans of how they jobs would be created. I think that it was just an after-thought. Someone must have asked what to say in case someone asked about jobs, and was told to put 200,000.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Hon. Minister, it is not just in your sector, but also in others, such as energy,which promised about 90,000 jobs, tourism, about 60,000 jobs and manufacturing about 20,000 jobs. However, I do not know whether these jobs will surely be created.

Mr Chairperson, this issue of jobs is the key message that these colleagues of ours delivered to the Zambian voters two years ago. The issue of economic and sectoral growth is nothing new because that was already happening. What they were agitating for was how they could spread the benefits of economic growth to the wider public. Agriculture presents the best opportunities for that. However, I am sorry to say that it is not happening. We will give you all the support, which includes approving this Budget, and talking to you because we are all stakeholders. When Zambia succeeds, we all succeed.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Miyanda(Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, in supporting this Vote, a lot has been said, but let me start with the issue of livestock.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Miyanda: I think, livestock is a very important sector in this country. In Zambia most of the people cannot afford to buy beef because it is quite expensive. If one went around Lusaka, he would find that mixed-cut beef is about K29,000 per kilogram.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: One wonders how many of our people are actually able to purchase this it.

Mr Chairperson, having said that, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Miyanda: … I want to address one or two things so that the hon. Minister can come clear on dip-tank. This Government has promised to construct dip-tanks and introduce compulsory dipping of animals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: What we are trying to find out from the hon. Minister is whether the Government will provide the dipping chemicals.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right! 

Mr Miyanda: If it will not do that, I think, it will not be possible to introduce the compulsory dipping. I hope that the hon. Minister will come out clear on how he intends to, really, put the compulsory dipping into effect.

Mr Chairperson, through you, let me also request the good hon. Minister to help us, the rural people and, especially, the hon. Members of Parliament from the rural constituencies, to share the US $750 Eurobond …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: … by constructing dams.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Miyanda: That is the only way the rural people will appreciate the US$750 million …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. I rarely stand on points of order. I am very humble, especially in this sitting.

Hon. Opposition Member: As a headman.

Mr Mbewe: As a headman, we do not just talk anyhow.

Laughter

Mr Chairperson: What is your point of order? Do not go into those details.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson is the hon. Minister of Defence in order to leave his nice seat and go and sit in the hon. Minister of Justice’s seat while he is away?

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

He is in order because, in this House,consultation is allowed. 

The hon. Member may continue. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order, I was talking about how we could share the US$750 million Eurobond proceeds. One way we could benefit from the Eurobond proceeds is by constructing dams in rural constituencies. I am very sure that the people to repay this loan will be our children. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda:Therefore, why do we not construct dams, sink boreholes or build dip tanks for them as they repay this loan? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, we are asking this very good Government to consider taking …

Hon. UPND Member: Not very good. Withdraw that phrase. 

Laughter 

Mr Miyanda: I said hon. Minister …

Hon. UPND Member: No, you said Government! 

The Chairperson: Order!

You are disturbing him. 

Mr Miyanda: My Chairperson, we should have an independent line ministry for livestock. At the moment, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock has to look at maize, fish and the ng’ombe.

Laughter 

The Chairperson: What is ng’ombe?

Mr Miyanda:Ng’ombe is cattle, Sir. 

Hon. UPND Member: And mbuzi. 

Mr Miyanda: Yes, mbuzi. 

The Chairperson:Mbuzi means what?

Mr Miyanda:Mbuzi means goat.

Mr Chairperson, recently, officers in the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock went to Dundumwezi, in Kalomo, to find a location for a dam. They came back to report that there was nowhere to construct a dam. That is unbelievable. They used taxpayers’ money to make that trip to Dundumwezi just to do a lousy job. I think that the hon. Minister should actually follow-up this case. We need a dam in Dundumwezi, especially in Kandanzovu. 
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Chairperson:  A point of order is raised. 

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, this is the second time I am rising on a point of order in this House. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Is the hon. Member debating in order not to mention that the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock moved a satellite depot from Kandanzovuto a place where there is a PF councilor?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

The Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Sing’ombe:Sir, is he in order not to mention that a satellite depot was moved from Kandanzovu to an area where there is a PF councilor?

Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling. 

The Chairperson: I know that was one way of debating. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: You have debated your point of order. 

The hon. Member on the Floor may continue. 

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, the department dealing with dams is Water Affairs. I am of the view that this component must be dealt with by the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. We need dams for irrigation, animals and even for fingerlings for Hon. Chisala in Chilubi.

Laughter 

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, our worry is that the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock would have to go to the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development to beg for dams, which is not fair. Why do we not have it the other way round? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, I am not sure about the next item …

Mr Mwamba got up to go to his seat. 

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Order! 

What is wrong with you people? These people are consulting and they are good friends. 

You may continue, hon. Member. 

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, I want to move onto the issue of crocodile farming. There have been reports from Mulobezi and Kazungula, the North-Western and Western provinces about crocodiles killing people. 

In the Southern Province, Sir, there is Zongwe Crocodile Farm where thousands of these beasts are caged. The owner of this farm, a white man, has done a beautiful thing because now no one can be killed by a crocodile.A person can get within 2 m of these animals and will not be attacked. They are just sleep peacefully. 

Mr Hamududu: Why do you not crop them?

Mr Miyanda:Why do you not crop the crocodiles and do what the white famer has done? We can take a leaf from that. If we did that, we could actually move from agriculture to tourism. We cannot let the crocodiles keep killing our people. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about wheat farming. A few weeks ago, the hon. Minister, on the Floor of this House, stated that he had not seen the possibility of a Zambian farmer getting into wheat farming. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, Zimbabwean farmers are now moving out of this country. They are leaving Zambia and, in the next two to three years, most of them will be in Mozambique and Angola. 

The workforce at most farms in this country is local, including managers and assistant managers, and yet we are saying that Zambians cannot grow wheat. This is questionable. All that the white man does is to get a centre pivot and leaves the rest of the work to Zambians. Why do we not empower the same people who manage Zambeeffarms in Mpongwe, Sinazongwe and Chiawa? 

The hon. Minister told us that there is too much wheat in this country, and yet bread in Kalomo costs K7,000. This is the same bread we buy at K4,000 here in Lusaka. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, my appeal to the hon. Minister is to empower our people. There is no miracle required. Our people can actually do it. When the Boers leave the country,our people can take over. 

Hon. Members: Who is a Boer? 

Mr Miyanda:A Boer is a farmer.

Laughter 

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, as I wind up my debate, I want to talk about FISP.  This is a very good programme, but we seem to have a problem, especially with seed. It is not fair to give small-scale farmers low yielding varieties. This is why the other hon. Member who was debating said it is not possible for a small-scale farmer to go beyond one hectare because the seeds we are giving them are low yielding varieties. What do you get from the 400 or 500 series? The real seeds are the 600 or 700 series.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: Someone has been telling the farmers that they cannot take 600 or 700 series type of seed to Kalomo, but I can assure you that they actually do very well. I do not know who is telling them not to take these seeds. However, if we give our farmers the low yielding varieties, it means that they will have low income because, certainly, the yield will be low. So, my appeal to you, hon. Minister, is that try the 700 series in Kalomo.

Mr Chairperson, the other aspect …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

I hope this will be the last point of order on this subject.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, the budget we are debating runs from January to December. This includes the 2012 and 2013 budgets. Is the hon. Member, Hon. January Zimba, in order …

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: … to just maintain the name January without changing it to December Zimba? I seek your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Chairperson: That point of order just goes to show that he wants us to move on.

You may continue.

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, before I was interrupted by that point order, I was talking about the type of seeds that we are giving our small-scale farmers under the FISP.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Miyanda: My concern is why we should continue giving our already poor farmers low yielding varieties. If we give them the high yielding varieties, it means they will yield more and their income will equally improve.

Sir, still on the same point, I wish to talk about the seed control certification. There is unfairness in this country, especially from the people who are in the seed industry. Those days, in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government – I think that is why Dr Kaunda did very well; it was law in this country not to carry over seed from one season to the other. If you did that, certainly, the 90 per cent germination will not happen the following year no matter what. My appeal is that whoever is doing the seed control and certification needs to work hard. 

At the moment, as farmers, we just go to the shops and buy seed but, when we plant it, instead of 90 per cent germination, we get 40 per cent. However, what the seed control and certification people are doing is just to go on a computer and write, ‘Tested July, 2012’ and put a sticker on top of the last bag and we buy thinking it is genuine seed, when it is not. Please, hon. Minister …

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Who is doing that?

Mr Miyanda: The PF.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Let them resign! 

Mr Livune: Tell them to resign!

Mr Miyanda: No, I will not tell them to resign, but I would want them to work very hard and ensure that they do the right thing.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, let me begin by thanking all hon. Members who have debated very passionately on our budget.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chenda: Sir, the contributions are important and very valuable to us. We have listened very attentively and taken note of the points, ideas and suggestions that have been made. We promise that we will incorporate the ideas as we plan ahead.

For expedient’s sake, even though all these points are important, I will be selective in my response to the debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: Let me begin with Hon. Kunda. He raised issues of challenges of the just-ended maize marketing season. Indeed, there were challenges when we began, but we brought the situation under control. This time around, all the maize that was bought was collected and taken to safe custody.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: Most of the maize that was bought is in sheds. Where we did not have sufficient sheds, all the maize is under tarpaulins. Our intention is to ensure that we quickly dispose of this maize that is under tarpaulins so that it does not go to waste. All in all, I would like to say that it may not be correct to say that this maize marketing season was chaotic. On the contrary, I think it was better handled than the case was previously.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: There is always room for improvement and we commit ourselves to ensuring that this improvement takes place.

Sir, coming to the FISP, almost every debater touched on this subject. Yes, again, we had some serious challenges at the beginning, but I want to assure this august House that we are doing everything possible to ensure that the farmers get their inputs.

Hon. Kalima touched on the question of payments due to the suppliers. Indeed, we owe some suppliers and there is nothing new about this issue. My colleagues here and neighbours, the MMD, know about this programme. In fact, when we took over last year, we did not only have to deal with issues of payments that were due to the suppliers of fertiliser for the incoming season, but we also had to deal with the issues of payment of debt which they had accumulated from the previous seasons, which we made. So, owing money to the suppliers of fertiliser is not a new thing. On the contrary, I would like to say that we have done very well because we have paid 44 per cent of what is due to them to date.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, I also want to assure this august House that we are doing everything possible to ensure that the remaining amounts are paid. We are not only doing that, but are also engaged in very serious discussions with the suppliers so that they can allow farmers to access the inputs. So, the situation, Hon. Kalima, is under control.

Hon. Muntanga touched on a very important issue of the CAADP compact. This was also touched on by Hon. Mucheleka. Indeed, there is a need for us to complete the exercise of coming up with an investment programme under the CAADP compact, hence I would like to inform this august House, again, that so much work has been done. The consultants who were engaged to prepare this investment plan for us have submitted the draft investment plan to the ministry. We are considering it and it is our sincere hope that we shall be able to complete the exercise early next year.

Mr Muntanga: I need a copy!

Mr Chenda: I have copy, Hon. Muntanga, on my desk. I know that Hon. Muntanga lives and breathes agriculture. We thank you for that passion.

Sir, with regard to the issue that was raised by Hon. Chungu of purchasing one million metric tonnes of maize as food security, I want assure this august House that, yes, this Government has bought slightly above one million metric tonnes of maize. If it were not for storage limitations, perhaps, we would have bought much more, especially that there is a shortage of maize in the region.

However, I would like to say that as a country, we are food secure. There is no reason for any panic whatsoever, because this PF Government has got in stock in excess of one million metric tonnes of maize. The exports that are being referred to here are exports that we have allowed from people who bought maize independently on the market. It is not from the FRA and obviously, it is only right and proper that we should allow them to export the maize. In fact, our farmers have this year, benefited a lot from this Government’s policy of allowing the exports. The private traders paid a price much higher than they have paid in the past.

We are committed to the recapitalisation of Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ). We have demonstrated this by the releasing of K25 billion to the NCZ for it to commence the process of recapitalising the Ammonium Nitrate Plant. In future, it is our intention that the excess fertiliser should be produced by NCZ. So, you will be seeing more activity from NCZ. There was a lot of talk on the issue of reviving co-operatives. Indeed, you are preaching to the converted because we are committed to reviving the co-operative movement in this country. To this effect, we have advanced money to the Zambia Cooperative Federation (ZCF) so that it can trigger the process of reviving the co-operatives. Not only have we done this, we have also completed the exercise of preparing the National Co-operative Policy, which is already in place.

I would alike to advise hon. Members of Parliament to pass through our offices so that they can obtain copies of this National Co-operative Policy. Yes, productivity in this country is low. It is for this reason that we are recruiting additional extension officers so that they can work hand in hand with the farmers and pass on the technical know-how in order to expose the farmers to better methods of agriculture.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Miyanda talked about the issue of dip tanks. Indeed, we are committed, in accordance with our PF manifesto, to ensure that we make dipping compulsory in this country. However, obviously for us to do this, we need to first construct the dip tanks. It is in this regard that our ministry has embarked on a very aggressive programme to construct dip tanks and also rehabilitate the old ones. You should watch our space in the coming year.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chenda: Sir, obviously, this goes along with the construction of dams. You cannot have operational dip tanks if you do not have a reliable source of water. So, we are also embarking on a very aggressive programme to construct small user dams. This will not only provide water for the livestock, but will also avail an opportunity to our farmers to continue to grow crops throughout the year.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of counterfeit seed on the market is a serious challenge to us. I would, however, like to assure this august House that the Government is not sitting idle. We are setting up seed laboratories in all the provincial capitals. Our plan of action is, to actually reduce accessibility to laboratories to the district levels so that our officers in the provinces will be readily available to inspect the agro dealers so as to ensure that the seed that is being supplied is certified seed.

Mr Chairperson, may I once again, thank all my colleagues who have contributed to the debate on our ministry’s budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 89/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/02 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Human Resources and Administration – K22,674,415,032).

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an under 01 Management and Co-ordination Unit, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K20,536,142,135 and the substitution therefore of K20,536,142,134.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/02, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/03 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Policy and Planning Department – K321,165,016,841).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an under 01 Management and Co-ordination Unit, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K4,475,865,800 and the substitution therefor of K4,475,865,799.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/03, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/04 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Agriculture Department – K16,157,577,244).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01 Management and Co-ordination Unit, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K4,793,413,050 and the substitution therefor of K4,793,413,051.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1092, Activity 010 – Community Outreach – Nil. May I know why there is no provision for this important activity in next year’s Budget.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Mwewa): Mr Chairperson, there is no allocation under that activity because it will be fully funded by the Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA) Rural Extension Service Capacity Advancement Project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, Sir, we are all aware that …

The Chairperson: Let me cease this opportunity to correct Hon. Mwiimbu. I was looking forward to a day when I would correct him. You must say Mr Speaker or Sir and Mr Chairperson or Sir. 

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: It is my honour to have given an opportunity to the Chairperson to correct me. We are all aware that whatever funding that is provided by donors and is known is also included in the National Budget. Why is it that, that particular Budget item and the assistance from JICA is not reflected in the Budget? All the donor funding, which is known is reflected in the Budget, so, how come this particular item is not reflecting?

Mr Chenda delayed in answering.

The Chairperson: Our colleagues who are here to advise, if you have the answer, quickly send a note to the hon. Minister. That is why you are here. Please, we need a quick response. The question is: Why are donor funds not indicated under this particular Vote?

Mr Mbewe: On appoint of order, Sir.

Laughter

The Chairperson: If you were here earlier, you were going to know my ruling that there were going to be no more points of order.

Mr Mbewe: It is a very serious one.

Interruptions 

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, if hon. Members can look at page 1396, they will see the various amounts provided by donors listed there.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister is not answering the question. He is saying that the ministry did not provide for that particular activity in the budget because it is being funded by donors. Now, if it is being provided for by donors, and the hon. Minister has shown us the page number where the list of donor funding is, how come this activity is not being allocated funding? The list of funding from donors to the Government of Republic of Zambia is reflected without the allocations to individual votes being provided for in the budget separately. That is the issue.

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, we have indicated how much funding will come from donors on page 1396. On the budget line for this activity, there is no money that has been budgeted for from the Zambian Government’s side. That is why there is nothing.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairperson: If at all it will help, if you look at page 1396, you will notice that donors such as IDA, Finnish Government, IFAD and World Bank have been listed. Does that help in any way?

Mr Mwiimbu: No, it does not help, Mr Chairperson. What this page indicates is the sort of donor funding that is not coming from the Government to support the budget. These particular monies are distributed to various Votes. This is the trend in all the ministries. The question we are asking is: Why is it that for this particular Vote, the component which is being supported by donor funding is not specifically indicated in the budget? That is the issue and there is no answer which is coming from the Government.

The Chairperson: Officers at the back, do you have any answer to that?

Mr Mbewe: Point of procedure, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: No, I will not allow that.

Laughter

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, I do not have any other answer. Suffice to say that we have indicated the various sources of revenue. That which is being provided for by the Zambian Government has been indicated under each activity. That which is being financed by donors has been included separately and listed on page 1396. I have nothing more to add.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: You will understand hon. Members that as presiding officer, I am left with no other option but to put a question.

Question was put and some hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

The Chairperson: You are less than twelve and, therefore, the call for a division falls out.

Laughter 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Mwiimbu: A point of clarification for future guidance, Sir.

The Chairperson: Is it on the Head we have passed or what?

Mr Mwiimbu: No, Mr Chairperson. It is on the way the figures for donor funding have been reflected. Since the hon. Minister of Finance is here, he must be in a position to assist with regard to such matters. When the Government of the Republic of Zambia sources funding from donors, the money comes as lump sums. According to my own understanding, the hon. Minister of Finance distributes that particular money to each specific Vote and it is reflected in the Budget as an activity. I just want the hon. Minister of Finance to give guidance if what I have said is the way things are done because this issue will keep on rising.

The Chairperson: Okay, for us to progress, my ruling is that can the hon. Minister of Finance, at a later date and not now, come up with an explanation, but meanwhile can we proceed.

Vote 89/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/06 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Veterinary Services Department – K52,796,584,747).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson I beg to move an amendment under 01 Management and Co-ordination Unit, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K6,931,465,074 and the substitution therefor of K6,931,465,073.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, I am looking at page 1411, Programme 1224, Activity 010 – Stock Register Updates, Activity 011 – Production of Livestock Movement Permits, Activity 012 – Procurement of FMD Vaccine and Activity 013 – Control of Livestock Diseases. All of these important items do not have allocations for 2013.  Why is that so?I also seek clarification on page 1412, Programme 1151, Activities 116 to 119. The same thing has happened to these activities for 2013. Why is this so? 

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives (Mr Kazabu): Mr Chairperson, Activities 010 to 013 have been budgeted for on page 1415 under Programme 1201 – Sector Coordination and Management – K10,297,000,000 and on page 1410 under Programme 1071 – Livestock Disease Control and Management – K3,224,000,000. The non-allocation of funds to activities in the hon. Member’s second question is due to a change in the contagious bovine pleural pneumonia (CBPP) control strategy from the physical construction of barriers to vaccination of cattle at the border, thus creating a buffer zone for protected herds of cattle.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1093, Activity 023 – Monitoring Private Sector Veterinary Practice and Laboratories – K25,000,000. Why has the allocation for 2013 been reduced?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, the reduction in Activity 006, Activity 023 and Activity 036 is as a result of rationalisation and harmonisation monitoring activity with donor-funded programmes like the World Bank’s Livestock Development Project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1151, Activity 034 – Investigate Stick Panels as Sampling Tool for Clossina Morsitans – K31,500,000, Activity 039 – Investigation of Tsetse-Habitat Interactions – K34,000,000, Activity 057 – Preservation and Characterisation of Tsetse and  Trypanosome Biological Materials – K30,200,000, Activity 088 – Tsetse Fly Surveys – K91,000,000, Activity089 – Tsetse Surveillance – K91,000,000, Activity 103 – Investigation on Resistance to Trypanocides – K35,500,000, Activity 114 – Service Targets – K78,500,000, and Activity 115 – Environment Impact Assessment Related to Tsetse and Trypan – K50,500,000. Why has the Ministry maintained the same figures for as those for this year? Further, why has the Programme Total been reduced from K637,787,638 to K442,200,000?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, the slight reduction in activities 034, 039, 057, 088, 089, 114 and 115 is due to reduction of the number of materials to be purchased reflective of the cost of carrying out the activities. Activities 116, 117, 118 and 119 have been budgeted for under Programme 1222 - Veterinary and Tsetse Control Services on Page 1413. 

The Chairperson: Order!

The answer has been given for those activities. What about the second part of the question?

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr N. Banda): Mr Chairperson, the slight reduction in Activity 103 is meant to cater for the increase in prices of the materials to be purchased.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, I think that the hon. Minister has not answered the question. Why have the figures remained the same between this year’s Budget and next year’s, considering the fact that, in budgeting, you are supposed to factor in things like inflation and rising costs? Why have the amounts remained the same for next year? That was the question which has not been answered.

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Minister repeat the answer.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, most of the purchase of materials was done in 2012, and the remaining materials will be bought from the amount that has been put in the 2013 Budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 89/06, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/07 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Livestock Development Department – K26,483,767,022).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01: Management and Co-ordination Unit, Programme 1000: Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total 2,066,994,107 and the substitution therefor of K2,066,994,106.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/07, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/08 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Livestock Development Department – Fisheries Department – K13,252,874,254).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01: Fisheries Management and Co-ordination Unit, Programme 1000: Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K3,481,167,750 and the substitution therefor of K3,481,167,749.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1001, Activity 125 – Monitoring Fish Re-stocking – K106,300,000, and Programme 1039, Activity 006 – Fish Restocking – K63,140,000. Why is the money for monitoring more than that for fish restocking?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1001, Activity 125 - Monitoring Fish Re-stocking – K106,300,000 is due to facilitation of monitoring fish restocking, including management restocking of small water bodies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1001, Activity 108 – Records Management – Nil. Why is there no provision in 2013 Budget?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1001, Activity 108 has been catered for under Programme 1001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K238,000,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 89/08, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the 
Chair]
VOTE 89/09 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock– Agribusiness and Marketing Department – K807,247,924,032). 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1253, Activity 008 – Procurement and Distribution of Inputs – K377,229,204,770. This year, we provided K482,725,787,500. Instead of increasing this allocation in 2013, it has reduced drastically. Considering the problems that we have been having pertaining to the financing of inputs and distribution, I would like to know why the allocation has reduced instead of increasing.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, in this programme, we are going to roll out the e-voucher system and, in that case, you will find that we will be able to save some money, hence the reduction in the budget.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1253, Activity 008 – Procurement and Distribution of Inputs – K377,229,204,770. The figure has, indeed, reduced. However, the hon. Minister said that they were going to increase the number of beneficiaries to over 900,000 farmers. I would like to find out whether they are saying they will reduce the size of the package to small-holder farmers in order to cater for the increased number of beneficiaries.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, we have actually maintained the same number of farmers. The reduction, like I earlier said, is that we are going to implement a pilot project for the e-voucher in the district that has been earmarked. When we conduct the e-voucher system, we will see that the administrative costs that are incurred.When there is no e-voucher system will not be incurred.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1016, Activity 025 – Commodity Price Stabilisation Fund – K3,000,000,000. May I know whether this is a subsidy? If it is not, what is it for?

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1016, Activity 025 – Commodity Price Stabilisation Fund – K3,000,000,000, the introduction of Activity 025 is to provide for price support to agriculture commodities besides maize. The introduction of Activity 026 is to support commodity price assessment for policy decisions.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1020, Activity 007 – Agriculture Credit Authority – K58,000,000. This is a drastic reduction from this year’s allocation of K394,549,573. Why is this so?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1020, Activity 007 – Agriculture Credit Authority – K58,000,000, the reduction in the allocation is because the ministry will engage an authorised agency, the Zambia Agricultural Marketing Commodity Exchange, to perform the functions of the proposed authority, instead of establishing its own licensing authority.

Vote 89/09 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/10 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock– Co-operatives Department – K3,624,075,914).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 01 Management and Co-ordination Unit, Programme:1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K1,747,960,912 and the substitution therefor of K1,747,960,911.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1048, Activity 022 – Co-operative Training and Education – Nil. May I know why this programme has not been funded for 2013?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There are two Programmes numbered 1048. He is referring to the fifth one from the top. Programme 1048, Co-operative Inspection and Auditing.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, that is the exact question.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1048, Activity 022 – Co-operative Training and Education – Nil, there is no allocation for this activity because it has been decentralised to the provinces and districts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1048, Activity 040 – Supervision and Backstopping – K200,000,000. This year, K285,440,386 was provided for this activity and, next year, K200,000,000 has been proposed for this activity. Given that the hon. minister said that we need to ensure that we revive the co-operatives, may I know why the funding to this important activity has been reduced?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, Mr Chairperson, Programme 1048, Activity 040 – Supervision and Backstopping – K200,000,000, the reduction is due to the fact that a motor vehicle was purchased this year. Therefore, we will not purchase a vehicle next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1048, Activity 010 – Co-operative Arbitration and Investigation – K56,455,258. I want to know whether the amount for this activity has been kept constant by mistake or not.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, he was not clear on the programme number.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May you, please, repeat the programme number for the benefit of the hon. Minister

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, Programme 03 …

Hon. Members: No! It is Programme 1040.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1048, Activity 010 – Co-operative Arbitration and Investigation – K56,455,258. Has the amount for this activity been kept constant by mistake or not?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Programme 1048, Activity 010 – Co-operative Arbitration and Investigation – K56,455,258, this activity is the same.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Lufuma(Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, Programme 1197, Activity 001 – Popularisation of CDP – K158,000,000. I would like to find out what CDP is and why its budget has drastically dropped.

Mr Chairperson, Programme 1197, Activity 002 – Review of Co-operative Societies Act No. 20 of 1998 – K79,250,000. This year, K79,250,000 was allocated, and I assume that you did the review. Next year, you have allocated the same amount to this activity. Was this review not undertaken?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1197, Activity 001 – Popularisation of CDP – K158,000,000, CDP is Co-operative Development Policy, and the reduction is because we have already done the co-operative policy. Therefore, we do not need to repeat the same activity next year.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, the other question has not been answered.

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, can he, please, repeat the question.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

For the benefit of those who were not following, may you please repeat the question.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1197, Activity 002 – Review of Co-operative Societies Act No. 20 of 1998 – K79,250,000. This year, K79,250,000 was allocated, and I assume that you did your job by reviewing the Act. Next year, you have allocated the same amount to this activity. May I know whether you reviewed the Act or not?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1197, Activity 002 – Review of Co-operative Societies Act No. 20 of 1998 – K79,250,000, the review of this Act has not been completed this year. We are aware that we need to conduct the research for the laws and that is why we have provided for it.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/11 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Seed Control and Certification Institute – K8,922,279,922).

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, Programme 1048, Activity 040 – Supervision and Backstopping – K18,066,876, and Programme 1120, Activity 003 – Backstopping, Monitoring and Evaluation – K33,761,473. May I know who or what will be supervised.  I have also seen many activities that relate to backstopping and supervision. I would like to know why this ministry is budgeting for these activities separately, when these activities are normal functions of management.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1048, Activity 040 – supervision and Backstopping – K18,066,876, and Programme 1120, Activity 003 – Backstopping, Monitoring and Evaluation – K33,761,473, the ministry will be supervising the co-operatives that will handle the seeds. There are too many backstopping and supervision activities because we have to be effective. Recently, you mentioned that, sometimes, you receive substandard seeds. Therefore, we have to ensure that we have good seed so that our farmers can produce good yields.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 89/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/16 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Copperbelt Province – Provincial Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K19,636,994,958).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

Under 01 Headquarters, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K17,551,666,321 and the substitution therefor of K17,551,666,320.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Namulambe(Mpongwe): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1120, Activity 094 – Planning and Review Meetings – K26,320,000. The Programme is called Monitoring and Evaluation. So, what is this Planning and Review Meetings?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1120, Activity 094 – Planning and Review Meetings – K26,320,000, this is a new programme which was previously budgeted for under General Administration and was meant for adequate planning and to improve fisheries production and productivity.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I am not satisfied with the answer.

The Deputy Chairperson: Ask the question!

Mr Namulambe: Sir, the Programme is called Monitoring and Evaluation. I would like to know why the Activity is called Planning and Review of Meetings.Which meetings are these and what planning is there in Monitoring and Evaluation?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, the K26,320,000 is meant for the development of monitoring and planning guidelines. It is also for the capacity building of district staff and annual planning and budgeting process.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/16, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/17 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Copperbelt Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K12,677,976,824).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

(i)Under 01 Ndola District, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K61,339,108 and the substitution therefor of K61,339,109;

(ii)Under 02 Kitwe District, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K53,733,698 and the substitution therefor of K53,733,699;

(iii)Under 03 Mufulira District, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K53,082,418 and the substitution therefor of K53,082,419;

(iv)Under 06 Masaiti District, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme total K68,854,914 and the substitution therefor of K68,854,915;

(v)Under 07 Mpongwe District, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K94,854,914 and the substitution therefor of K94,854,915;

(vi)Under 08 Chililabombwe District, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K54,985,108 and the substitution therefor of K54,985,109;

(vii)Under 09 Kalulushi District, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K50,461,016 and the substitution therefor of K50,461,017;

(viii)Under 10 Lufwanyama District, Programme: 1001 General Administration, by the deletion of Programme total K80,461,372 and the substitution therefor of K80,461,373;

(ix)Under 12 Kitwe District, Programme: 1999 District Livestock Development, by the deletion of Programme Total K72,314,463 and the substitution therefor of K72,314,462;

(x)Under 14 Chingola District, Programme: 1999 District Livestock Development, by the deletion of Programme Total K70,767,144 and the substitution therefor of K70,767,143;

(xi)Under 17 Mpongwe District, Programme: 1039 Capture Fisheries Management and Development, by the deletion of Programme Total K85,889,087 and the substitution therefor of K85,889,086; 

(xii)Under 18 Chililabombwe District, Programme: 1999 District Livestock Development, by the deletion of Programme Total K79,809,287 and the substitution therefor of K79,809,288; and

(xiii)Under 19 Kalulushi District, Programme: 1999 District Livestock Development, by the deletion of Programme Total K70,767,144 and the substitution therefor of K70,767,143.

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on …

Interruptions

Mr L. Zimba: Mr Chairperson, I need your protection.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You are adequately protected. Proceed, because we are all patiently waiting to hear from you.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr L. Zimba: ... Programme 1048, Activity 023 – Co-operative Training and Development – Nil, Page 1509, Programme 1048, Activity 023 – Co-operative Training and Development – Nil. For this year, there is a provision of K16 million and K7 million, respectively, but there is nothing for 2013. Why is there no provision for next year on training?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1048, Activity 023 – Co-operative Training and Development – Nil, Page 1509, Programme 1048, Activity 023 – Co-operative Training and Development – Nil, this programme is sharing costs with Japan International Co-operation Agency (JICA) which has come to our aid. We, therefore, did not think that we should include it in the Budget since we will be helped by the donor agents.

I thank you, Sir.    

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I thought that our colleagues resolved this issue at break time. The regulations state that when a donor provides funding, the Government is supposed to reflect it in the Budget. Is the Government in order to state that it will get money from a donor agency without reflecting it in the Budget?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, we answered this question before the break. We said that these moneys were budgeted for. There is a block of amounts of money from different donors on page 1396. The Chairperson had also ruled that the hon. Minister of Finance will come up with a statement in due course.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling on this matter. The moneys which are reflected on page 1396 are block votes that are given to the ministry by the donors. However, these particular votes that we are dealing with have been sub-divided into various components that have been budgeted for by the Government. 

Sir, are they correct to keep insisting on maintaining their position? I know that the Chairperson had indicated that the hon. Minister of Finance would provide guidance, but are we going to continue being misled by people from the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock when they had the opportunity to consult and give correct answers earlier?

The Deputy Chairperson: While I cannot rule on whether there is misdirection or not, my ruling is that the hon. Minister of Finance should come up with an explanation on this. This is because the point of order raised by Hon. Mwiimbu is exactly the same as the one that he raised earlier on. Therefore I can not depart from the earlier ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Vote 89/17, as amended … 

Mr Livune called for a division.

Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Livune, there are procedures to be followed. You can not call for a division before I finish. That is disorder.

Vote 89/17, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/24 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Western Province – Provincial Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K18,027,684,558).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

(i)under 01 Headquarter, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K16,139,153,189 and the substitution therefor of K16,139,153,188;

(ii)under 06 Fisheries, Programme:1001 General Administration, Activity 003 Office Administration, by the deletion of K61,716,500 and the substitution therefor of K31,716,500;

(iii)under 06 Fisheries, Programme: 1001 General Administration, Activity 035 Staff Welfare, by the deletion of K71,000,000;

(iv)under 06 Fisheries, Programme: 1001 General Administration, Activity 070 Monitoring, Backstopping and Evaluation, by the deletion of K91,776,800 and the substitution therefor of K31,776,800;

(v)under 06 Fisheries, Programme:1001 General Administration, Activity 071 Monthly Management Meetings, by the insertion of K9,000,000;

(vi)under 06 Fisheries, Programme: 1025 Aquaculture Management and Development, Activity 001 Aquaculture Development, by the insertion of K25,000,000;

(vii)under 06 Fisheries, Programme: 1025 Aquaculture Management and Development, Activity 002 Aquaculture Management, by the insertion of K27,000,000;

(viii)under 06 Fisheries, Programme: 1025 Aquaculture Management and Development, Activity 006 Extension visits to Fisheries and Fish Farmers, by the insertion of Activity Total K30,000,000;

(ix)under 06 Fisheries, Programme: 1039 Capture Fisheries Management and Development, Activity 007 Fisheries Surveillance and Enforcement, by the insertion of K25,000,000; and 

(x)under 06 Fisheries, Programme: 1039 Capture Fisheries Management and Development, Activity 022 Mapping of Fishing Areas, by the insertion of K45,000,000.

Amendment agreed to. Vote accordingly amended.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of clarification, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of clarification is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I take note of the fact that you have ruled that the hon. Minister of Finance will come and guide us on the issues we have raised pertaining to the donor funding vis-à-vis the budget we are considering. However I have also noted that we may soon finish the consideration of this particular Vote under the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. I would like to find out how prudent it would be for the hon. Minister of Finance to come and clarify the issue after we have approved the budget.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Finance, are you in a position to clarify?

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I would be more comfortable if I was given time to be guided by the budget officers as opposed to giving an off the cuff response. I do not want to accentuate the possible confusion that there might be. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There was an assistant speaker this side. 

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Now, the point raised by Hon. Mwiimbu is that, what will be the relevance of you coming to give a statement to clarify the issue in question after we conclude the Vote for this ministry? Now, can you indicate when you can clarify issue at hand because we all came here to do justice to this particular Vote?

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, your colleague had given me latitude. I can only do it tomorrow and not now.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon.Ntundu interjected. 

Mr Chairperson: Order!

   Hon. Ntundu, I know your voice and I am sitting next to you.

Laughter

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Now, the ruling is that we will stick to the earlier ruling, but subject to the hon. Minister giving that clarification tomorrow. Meanwhile, we will continue. We are only dealing with Vote 89/24.

Mr Mufalali:Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1000, Personal Emoluments. When I went through the establishments, I realised that Western Province has less people at the headquarters when compared to other provinces and hence, the reduction or the lower programme total. Why is it so?

Sir, I also seek clarification on Programme 1001, General Administration. I realise that in other provinces, there is an allocation for monitoring and backstopping. Why is it missing in this programme?

Mr N. Banda:Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to the transfer of staff to other provinces and districts. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali:Mr Chairperson, why are you reducing the number of staff for this province and not replacing them?

Mr Kazabu:Mr Chairperson, the transfers that are being referred to here are within the same province, but to various districts.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 89/24as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/26 – Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Eastern Province – Provincial Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K24,866,603,356).

Mr Chikwanda:Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 01 Headquarters, Programme: 1000 Personal Emoluments, by the deletion of Programme Total K22,925,714,073 and the substitution therefor of K22,925,714,072. 

Mr Lufuma:Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1120, Activity 009 – Data Collection and Analysis–Nil. I notice that there is no allocation for next year. Could I know the reason.

Mr Kazabu:Mr Chairperson, the activity has been budgeted for under Vote 89/03, Programme 1019, Activity 004.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 
Vote 89/26 as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/27 – Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Eastern Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K11,959,051,076).

Mr Mutolo:Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1108, Activity 028 – Livestock Costs. I am using this as an example because it is cross cutting for most of those issues on that page. Since this is an activity based budget, why are these segments not budgeted for and yet I see the figures lumped on Programme 1999 from Activity 001 to 003. Why are they not in their segments so that we can understand clearly how much money has been budgeted for which activity.

Mr N. Banda:Mr Chairperson, all these activities have been moved to other programmes. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1999, Activity 005 − Breeding Centre’s Development − K650,000,000. This year there was K2,062,034,431 that was allocated to this activity. Why has it been drastically reduced to K650,000,000 for next year?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, we completed the breeding centres in 2012. Therefore, we do not have to undertake the same activity next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, has the PF Government abandoned the idea of activity-based budgeting because most of these Budget lines have no Budgets, and are lumped, which is not activity-based budgeting?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, in his question, the hon. Member is referring to a specific activity. Therefore, we do not understand how, in another breath, he can ask whether we are still on activity-based budgeting or lumping, which is a new method of budgeting known only to him. We are responding to the questions with specific reference to the activities as they are stated.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mr Singombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1999, Activity 005 − Breeding Centre’s Development − K650,000,000. On the question raised by Hon. Miyutu, the hon. Minister indicated that Breeding Centres Development had been completed. Why is there this amount that has been allocated for this activity?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1999, Activity 005 is meant to cater for logistical support to keep the breeding centre operational. Therefore, we are looking at other things that are needed for us to carry out works at the breeding centre.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1025, Activity 002 − Aquaculture Management − K6,155,871. Why is there such a reduction in the allocation to this activity?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, the decrease in the allocation to this activity is because the office furniture was already acquired. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members called for division. 

The Deputy Chairperson: The question is resolved in the affirmative. 

Mr Kambwili: Iwe Muntanga naiwe lekeni ibange, ikala panshi. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You are less than twelve.

Mr Kambwili: Ikaleni. You are beaten. 

Mr Muntanga: We are calling for a division. 

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Not after a ruling has already been made. 

The Deputy Chairperson: I made the ruling that the number is less than twelve. 

Hon. UPND Members: We are more than twelve. 

The Deputy Chairperson: No, it is too late in the day. Unfortunately, the number increased after campaigning. 

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Seminar!

The Deputy Chairperson: We do not allow campaigns. 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly. 

Vote 89/27, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 89/28 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – North-Western Province – Provincial Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K21,887,458,175).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under 04: Agriculture, Programme 1053: Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K56,146,966 and the substitution therefor of K56,146,965. 

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi West): I thank you, Chair. I am on page …

Hon. Government Members: Mr Chairman!

The Deputy Chairperson: You have been reminded by volunteers. 

Laughter 

Mr Mulusa: But the rule is that they cannot speak to me. Neither can I speak to them. 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do not indulge yourself in an unproductive debate. 

Proceed. 

Mr Mulusa: You have heard. 

Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 087 – Construction/ Rehabilitation of Farm Institute (FI). I see that funding has been discontinued, yet, this year, we had K97 million. Why?  

May I also have clarification on Programme 1053, Activity 009 –Promotion of Irrigation, Activity 016 – Promotion of Irrigation, Activity 026 –Promotion of Irrigation and Activity 027 – Promotion of Irrigation. I note that these activities have been discontinued as well. May I please have an explanation for this?  

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, the rehabilitation works at the Farm Institute were completed in 2012. 

I thank you, Sir.   

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Lufuma, you may seek your clarification.  

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, the question on Programme 1053, Activity 009 – Promotion of Irrigation, Activity 016 – Promotion of Irrigation, Activity 026 – Promotion of Irrigation and Activity 027 – Promotion of Irrigation has not been answered.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lufuma, you may proceed. 

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1222, Activity 002 – Control of Livestock Diseases, Activity 009 – Livestock Disease Extension, Activity 011 – Planning, Review and Consultative Meetings, and Activity 020 – Tsetse and Trypanosomiasis Surveys and Surveillance. Why have these activities been discontinued? 

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, the discontinuation of the mentioned activities under Programme 1222 is due to a relocation of resources to laboratory construction under Programme 1020 on page 1811. 

I thank you, sir. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my right!

The consultations are rather loud. May you please moderate them?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1053, Activity 009 − Promotion of Irrigation − Nil, Activity 016 Promotion of Irrigation − Nil, Activity 026 − Promotion of Irrigation − Nil and Activity 027 − Promotion of Irrigation − Nil. I would like to find out whether the promotion of irrigation in the North-Western Province is a success. Further, where are the irrigations schemes taking place in the North-Western Province considering that there will be no activity and budget line in 2013?
 
Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, the mentioned activities under Programme 1053 have been budgeted for under Activity 056 − Promotion of Extension Methodologies, on the same page.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I think that the second question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central has not been answered.

The Deputy Chairperson: Repeat the question.

Mr Namulambe: Where was the irrigation equipment installed?

Mr Kambwili: Can that be answered in the Budget?

Interruption

Hon. Government Member: No!

Mr Kambwili: Iwe, you cannot answer that in the Budget. Ima ulande!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It appears that there are too many loud advisors. I think, it is timely to advise that we, please, consult less loudly. Advice must be given at close range, not across the ocean.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Minister respond.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, though those kinds of details could not really be captured in the Budget, as expected by the hon. Member, these activities have been moved to Mwinilunga and Ikeleng’e District.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Katambo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1025, Activity 001 − Aquaculture Development − K82,000,000. Why is there such a huge increase?

Hon. Member: Programme!

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, we did not get the programme.

The Deputy Chairperson: Programme 1025.

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, this programme is meant to train fish farmers to develop aquaculture and ensure extension services are delivered in all the districts. The increase in activities 001 and 016 is due to the increased number of planned training and visits.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1053, Activity 009 − Promotion of Irrigation, Activity 016 − Promotion of Irrigation, Activity 026 − Promotion of Irrigation and Activity 027 − Promotion of Irrigation. The hon. Minister in his answer said that these activities have been moved to Ikeleng’e District. Under which Vote?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, under which Vote?

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, I had earlier indicated that all irrigation projects have been moved to Activity 056 − Promotion of Extension Methodologies, and fall under that activity.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/28, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/29 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – North-Western – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K10,738,739,242).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

(a)under 01: Solwezi District, Programme 1053: Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K58,666,666 and the substitution therefor of K58,666665;

(b)under 02: Mwinilunga District, Programme 1001: General Administration, by the deletion of Programme Total K44,763,839 and the substitution therefor of K44,763,840;

(c)under 02: Mwinilunga District, Programme 1053: Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K51,333,333 and the substitution therefor of K51,333,335;

(d)under 03: Zambezi District, Programme 1053: Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K51,333,333 and the substitution therefor of K51,333,335;

(e)under 04: Kabompo District, Programme 1053: Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K51,333,333 and the substitution therefor of K51,333,335;

(f)under 08: Ikeleng’e District, Programme 1053: Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K39,439,924 and the substitution therefor of K39,439,925;

(g)under 09: Solwezi District, Programme 1222: Veterinary and Tsetse Control Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K85,533,338 and the substitution therefor of K85,533,389;

(h)under 12: Kabompo District, Programme 1222: Veterinary and Tsetse Control Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K83, 776,295 and the substitution therefor of K83,776,296;

(i)under 13: Kasempa District, Programme 1222: Veterinary and Tsetse Control Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K83,776,295 and the substitution therefor of K83,776,296; and

(j)under 15: Chavuma District, Programme 1222: Veterinary and Tsetse Control Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K90,318,848 and the substitution therefor of K90,318,849.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1001, Activity 009 – Solwezi District – Nil. Programme 1002, Activity 002 – Water – Nil and Programme 1008, Activity 021 – HIV and AIDS – Nil, Programme 1010, Activity 009 – Financial Management and Accounting - Nil. I would like to know why, in the 2013 Budget, these very important activities for the people of Solwezi will be abandoned.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, we understand that these programmes are very important, and they are still there. There is no provision in next year’s Budget because, after merging the of Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives (MACO) and the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries, common programmes are funded under one line programme code.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I just want to find out which particular code the hon. Minister is referring to because he has not indicated. He has just said that they have been merged. This is for my own convenience and understanding.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon Minister, for completeness, can you provide the information?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Sir?

The Deputy Chairperson: On whom?

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, it is on Programme 1001.

Mr Mulusa rose

Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mulusa: Wait until I start talking.

Laughter

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, I am on …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Mr Mulusa and Ms Imenda remained standing.

The Deputy Chairperson: When I say, “Order”, you should take your seats.

The hon. Members sat down.

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us be a little more serious. I have noted, with regret, that loud consultations are continuing for whatever reason. That is not honourable. By the same token, let us be civil in the way we handle matters. Let us not react to hecklers.

Mr Mulusa: Sir, I am on, Programme …

Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for counseling us that we should be serious about the way we handle business in this House. I note that the hon. Minister’s camp, there, is not answering questions promptly, appropriately and convincingly. Why are they taking such a long time to answer? Are they in order to be fumbling when they are supposed to give us the right information?

The Deputy Chairperson: My serious ruling is that hon. Ministers take long to answer because they want to give you correct answers.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, Mr Mulusa.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Mr Mulusa: Sir, I am looking at Programme 1016, Activity 016 – Entrepreneurship Development Programme 1041 – Nil, Activity 014 – Land Use Planning and Programme 1048, Activity 025 – Co-operative Training and Education – Nil. All of these activities have been discontinued. These are very important activities for promoting agri-business. May I, please, get a comprehensive answer on why they have been discontinued throughout the province.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1016, Activity 016 is catered for under page 1808, Programme 1003 – Capacity Building – K230,846,254. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, Solwezi is very dear to my heart. I seek clarification on Programme 1041, Activity 012 – Farm Block Development – Solwezi Farm Block – K130,000,000. What is going to be done with this very little money, considering that this farm block is a thicket? Secondly, on Programme 1012, Activity 019 – Rehabilitation of Camp Houses – Agric – K50,000,000. The houses in the agricultural camps in Solwezi are in a dilapidated. In view of this, is this amount enough?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1041, Activity 012 is a newly-introduced activity in the 2013 Budget. Activity 014, under the same programme, has been incorporated into Activity 012. As regards what we are going to do with only K50 million, this amount will enable us to do the preliminary rehabilitation of staff houses.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/29, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimate

Vote 89/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/31 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Luapula Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K13,829,682,740).

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1096 – Irrigation Development and Support. The people of Luapula Province, whom I represent in this House, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: … are keen to have irrigation schemes in the province. I would like to find out why our people in Luapula Province, who are keen to ensure that they have irrigation, are not being provided with the requisite services as per programme.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1096 – Irrigation Development and Support, funds for irrigation for Luapula were budgeted for this year and work has since started at Ipusukilo in Mwense District.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu:  Mr Chairperson, I want to find out which Vote is used to provide the so-called services to the people of Luapula who are so dear to me.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, I have already said that the works were completed this year. Therefore, is no need for us to continue pumping money into Luapula Province when there are other provinces that need that money.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1001, Activity 003 – Staff Development – Nil. Kawambwa District, where I come from, has no salaries.

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali:  Earlier, when I asked about …

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala(Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order. Are the hon. Members for Senanga and Monze Central in order to mislead the nation by saying that they come from Luapula Province when, in actual fact, they are from Western and Southern provinces respectively? 

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that Luapula Province and Senanga are in Zambia.

Hon. Member for Senanga, continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification of Programme 1001, Activity 003 – Staff Development – Nil. This is Kawambwa District where I come from. I realise that there are no salaries for Kawambwa District. Earlier, when we asked about other provinces, we were told that staff reduction on the provincial headquarters is due to staff that moves to the districts. Where are the salaries for Kawambwa?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member who comes from Kawambwa wants an answer.

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, the Programme has been moved to Vote 89/31 Programme 10101.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I have an obligation to represent the people of Luapula. 

The Chairperson: Order!

You are now overdoing it.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Too much of anything is dangerous. Just get to the point.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1025, Activity 006 – Extension Visits to Fishers and Fish farmers – Nil. I realise that we have made a provision in this year’s Budget to restock fish. I want to find out why this serious activity has been omitted.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, Activity 01 has been reduced in order to cater for Activity 11 and the new Activity 15. 

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 89/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

There shall be order in the House. Order on my right! Order, hon. Deputy Minister!

Vote 89/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/33 (Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – Lusaka Province – District Agriculture Coordinating Office – K10,155,089,088).

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

(i)    Under 02 Chongwe District, Programme:1053 Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K95,942,443 and the deletion therefor of K95,942,442;

(ii)    Under 04 Luangwa District, Programme: 1053 Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K63,108,578 and the substitution therefor of K63,108,577;

(iii)    Under 08 Luangwa District, Programme 1142 Infrastructure Management, by the deletion of Programme Total K104,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K104,000,001; and

(iv)    Under 10 Chirundu District, Programme: 1053 Crop Production, Advisory and Technical Services, by the deletion of Programme Total K64,613,004 and the substitution therefor for K64,613,003.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1059, Activity 002 – Labour Day Celebrations – Nil. This is a very serious activity as regards staff development and the labour sector. There is no provision for it in the 2013 Budget. I would like to find out why.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, the activity has been moved to Programme, 1002, Activity 030 – Public Functions and Ceremonies – K200,000,000.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 89/33, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

______

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 7th December, 2012.