Friday, 29th June, 2018

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Friday, 29th June, 2018

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_______

 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

 

The Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Chungu): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House an indication of the Business it will consider next week.

 

Sir, on Wednesday, 4th July, 2018, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by debate on Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will debate the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Education Science and Technology.

 

On Thursday, 5th July, 2018, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then debate the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation.

 

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 6th July, 2018, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will consider Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will debate the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, National Guidance, Gender Matters and Governance on the President’s Address on the State of the Nation.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

_______

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

GROWING OF CANNABIS FOR EXPORT

 

290. Mr Mwila (Chimwemwe) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

 

  1.  whether the Government has any plans to venture into the growing of cannabis, using the Zambia National Service, primarily for export;

 

  1. if there are no such plans, why;

 

  1. whether there are any countries in Europe and America that legally trade in cannabis; and

 

  1. if so, what the names of the countries are.

 

The Minister of Local Government (Mr Mwale) (on behalf of the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Yaluma)): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Government has no plans of venturing into cultivation of cannabis, using the Zambia National Service for export. Cultivation of cannabis is licensed by the Government through the Ministry of Health. Should that position change, the House will be updated accordingly.

 

Sir, as indicated in part (a) of the Question, the Government has no plans of venturing into cannabis for export using the Zambia National Service. The reasons the Government has no plans to venture into cultivation of cannabis include, inter alia, the following:

 

  1. marijuana consists of over 400 chemicals, including many toxic psychoactive chemicals, whose long-term effect on human beings remains largely unstudied. It would be irresponsible and medically unethical to allow such toxic substances to be administered to Zambians under the guise that the Government has allowed it;

 

  1. long-term use of marijuana can lead to addiction. This can be highly detrimental to our quest to have a nation of healthy and productive people that contribute to the growth of our nation and aspiration for a prosperous middle income country by the year, 2030. Furthermore, there are a number of patients that have been admitted to our psychiatric institutions for causes induced by marijuana and this has a negative effect on our people; and

 

  1. addiction to marijuana is a gateway to the use of other more potent and highly dangerous drugs such as heroin and cocaine. These drugs have been indisputably linked to organised crime and money laundering apart from destroying many lives.

 

Mr Speaker, there are certain countries in Europe and America that import cannabis. These countries include Canada, Brazil, Netherlands, Finland, Germany, Croatia, New Zealand, Chile and Italy.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Mbulakulima (Milenge): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has admitted that there are many countries in Europe which import cannabis. However, without being copycats, I want to believe that in his submission, the hon. Minister has indicated that there are many patients admitted to hospitals because of cannabis. Conversely, there are many people looking for medicine, which requires the same drug. Why are we not allowing individuals to venture into this business with the help of the Government in terms of the regulatory aspect?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier, this position can change. The Government is not rigid on this one, except, we want to be cautious in the way we approach the use of medical marijuana or growing and exporting of medical marijuana. What I have given is the status quo. This is what is happening. We are now trying to understand the whole medical marijuana business. We have heard that even other African countries want to venture into this. However, we think that before we venture into this, we must make sure that we are in a proper position to make sure there will not be any abuse or any spillage of substances to the masses thereby giving us all the consequences that I read out. Therefore, we are taking a cautious stance to ensure that we, as country, will have taken everything into consideration, , by the time we allow the private sector to venture into this. At the moment, we are not in a position to do this because we have not set the atmosphere to begin to allow the private sector to venture into this.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, how does the hon. Minister reconcile the answer that he has given with the statement that was attributed to the Minister of Health, I think, about three weeks ago, just before we opened this session of Parliament? Hon. Dr Chitalu Chilufya was quoted as saying that in fact, the Government and our country, Zambia, is actively considering venturing into cultivation of cannabis because of the medicinal aspect of it?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, if the question was asking whether or not we are considering this, the answer would have been different. However, the question is about any plans to use the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to grow cannabis, and this is the response I gave. I said that obviously, this position is not rigid. We are thinking about how we can allow the private sector and the country to participate in the economic activities regarding growing of cannabis. However, we have not reached that position yet. We are not going to allow the ZNS to do so and we have no plans to do that, but consideration on whether or not we should begin to grow cannabis for medical purposes in future, are being made, as said by the hon. Minister of Health.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Speaker, allow me to put on record that some of the workshops you allow hon. Members of Parliament to attend, are very, very informative. Just a fortnight ago, we were told that tobacco is more harmful than cannabis, yet tobacco which is more harmful has been accepted and legally so, while to cannabis which is so helpful in terms of medical qualities, the hon. Minister is saying no.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutelo: Hon. Minister, why are you allowing something which is more harmful and rejecting that which is more helpful?

                                                                     

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, had the hon. Member for Mitete followed my response, he would have heard that I said we are not rigid, except, we have to be cautious, and that we are studying the situation. We just do not want to get into something before we fully understand it. Therefore, we are not denying something that is helpful, as he said. That is not the correct position. With regard to the issue of tobacco, I may not be able to speak to that because it was well-covered by the hon. Minister of Health.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr C. M. Zulu (Luangeni): Mr Speaker, there are two types of cannabis. There is recreational cannabis and medicinal cannabis. The one that can make someone end up at Chainama is the recreational cannabis. What we are discussing or debating here is medicinal cannabis, which is very helpful. It can treat cancer, epilepsy, migraines, headaches, insomnia and arthritis. That is what we are looking at. I am aware that a number of Zambian companies have partnered with companies from outside Zambia. They are doing joint ventures. Those companies have applied for licences to venture into this, including financing. Financing and security measures will be there. Everything will be put in place to ensure that no one gains access to the facility to start abusing cannabis. Why are you taking long, as the Government, to issue these licences? This is very helpful. I have all the necessary information, hon. Minister.

 

Dr Kambwili: Ulapepa, iwe.

 

Laughter

 

Mr C. M Zulu: Mr Speaker, 1 kg of medicinal cannabis is worth US$3,800. One tonne of copper is worth US$7,000. Imagine how much this country would benefit economically? Why are you delaying to give licences?

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Before the hon. Minister responds, let us have some order. I do not know how this subject has caused so much excitement, but let us have some order.

 

The hon. Minister may answer.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we are taking long because as a Government, we want to understand what we will be getting the country into and I think that this is very, very important. Those countries that have ventured into this business have had to conduct studies and studies and studies to get to where they are. I think we also want to – there may not be a need to reinvent the wheel. We may be able to utilise their studies or the research they have done, but it needs to be applied to the Zambian situation and we should be able to check. That is why we are taking long. We understand that this is a very economic issue with a lot of economic activities and benefits, but we want to carry out our own research before we can get into this.

 

On the question of what sort of cannabis we are talking about, the hon. Member who asked the Question, did not specify that it is medical marijuana. The Question was on the growing of cannabis. Therefore, I had to give the Government position, and I responded to that Question as it is. So, we are assuming we are discussing medical marijuana, but the Question was just on the growing of cannabis using the ZNS. My response is that we have to be cautious. Our position is not rigid, but we have to conduct many studies before we can change our position.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister is now repeating himself. He is repeating himself in all the responses. I will take two more questions, one from the hon. Member for Bweengwa and close with the hon. Member for Kabwe Central.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, thank you so much. Hon. Minister, thank you so much for your responses. Looking at how broke this Patriotic Front (PF) Government is, I think every person, even the young ones, including my child who is three years old, knows that this Patriotic Front Government is 100 per cent broke. You do not have money.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Michelo: My question is: When are you going to undertake the research so that you can study how profitable marijuana will be to the Zambian people? When are you going to start researching, hon. Minister?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, if the statement that the Zambian Government is broke was coming from somebody who understands economics, I was going to get worried, but my brother here –

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, yesterday, I was counselling on insinuations and anyway – well, I will not go there.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: I will not go there.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Just go there.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade, and Industry, just confine yourself to the question and the question is: Are you about to start any research on this subject? That is the question.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I apologise to my brother, the hon. Member. We, –

 

Mr Michelo: I am not your brother.

 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, you may continue.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, like I said, the hon. Minister of Health issued a statement to the effect that the Government was considering this. He said that because he knows that the Government is already looking at different research papers that have been done by several countries. Therefore, we are not starting now. We are already looking at what is existing in other countries. This is very confusing because some of the countries that have allowed the growing medical marijuana are regretting it. Others are happy in this business. That is why we have to make our own conclusions. However, I can tell you that the Ministry of Health is already actively looking at the matter. Therefore, it is not that we are starting to do that now.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, listening to all the answers that you have given regarding the issue of cannabis, I would like to find out, ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

 

Mr Ngulube: ... whether there are any universities, colleges or institutions of research that you have earmarked to help the Government conduct these researches. I say so because our neighbor, Lesotho, has been exporting cannabis for commercial use and I think, from their statistics, they raise about US$10 billion annually from the export of marijuana. I have in mind places like Chibolya, which have become traditionally known as hubs for prohibited drugs. I am also looking at this from an angle where our laws in Zambia do not allow the export of marijuana. Therefore, while we are talking about research in this particular field, does the Government have a plan to begin legalising this crop so that we do not waste time talking about medical marijuana when our laws have not been changed?

 

Are there institutions that have been designated for this purpose or have the studies started? Is there a programme to legalise marijuana? I ask this because it will be impossible for anyone to conduct a research in this regard because once one is found with marijuana; he/she will be charged with possession and would go to jail. He/she will not say I am conducting a research. That is why the Government must legalise the research and enact laws that will allow scientists, economists and others who would want to conduct research in medicinal marijuana.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Health said the ministry is considering getting into this business. That is because a research on the benefits of getting into this kind of business is already underway. However, I am not aware who the Ministry of Health is talking to and which research institutes will carry out this research, whether it is the University of Zambia (UNZA) or any other university in this country. Maybe, the hon. Member could ask the hon. Minister of Health a straight question, since he is fully involved in carrying out research in this matter. However, I am aware that the ministry is involved in some research to try to see whether or not we should venture into this business.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

CONSTRUCTION OF DIP TANKS IN LUMEZI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

 

291. Mrs Jere (Lumezi) asked the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock:

 

  1. whether the Government has any plans to construct dip tanks in Lumezi parliamentary Constituency;

 

  1. if so, how many dip tanks will be constructed;

 

  1. where the dip tanks will be situated;

 

  1. what the time frame for the completion of the project is; and

 

  1. what the total cost of the project is.

 

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Katambo) (on behalf of the Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Ms Mulenga)): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to construct dip tanks in Lumezi Parliamentary Constituency. It plans to construct two dip tanks in the constituency. The two dip tanks will be located at Nkanyu in Chikomeni Veterinary Camp and Vyombo in Lumezi Veterinary Camp.

 

Sir, once the procurement process is completed, we should be able to determine the exact time frame that will be taken to construct the dip tanks. The total cost of the project is K300,000 for the two dip tanks.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the issue of dip tanks is quite critical in this, ...

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to apologise to the hon. Member of Parliament for Ikeleng’i Parliamentary Constituency for disturbing his line of thought as he was about to ask a follow-up question.

 

Sir, two weeks ago, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs came to this august House and gave a comprehensive statement on the issues pertaining to organised crime and crime in general. He informed this august House how the Government intends to tackle crime and general crimes in the country. Arising from that statement, I have observed that since the elections in Chilanga Parliamentary Constituency – and pursuant to the elections that are going to take place in Lusaka –that lawlessness in Lusaka is rising with the knowledge of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

 

Mr Speaker, I am saying so because we are all aware that there is a law which we passed in this country, which law states that no motor vehicle will be used by anybody if that vehicle is not licensed. It also states that you cannot use any other feature on the licence plate apart from that which is regulated and authorised by the Ministry of Transport and Communication and the Ministry of Home Affairs. We have observed with alarm and noticed that recently, there are vehicles with very strange registration marks. Yesterday, I saw one motor vehicle with Patriotic Front (PF) colours with a registration mark “No. 1 Bootlicker.” The other day, I saw another vehicle with registration “ECL 2021” and so many vehicles of various colours and makes. This was a common phenomenon in Chilanga, and it is now here in Lusaka. The other day, I, again, saw one whose registration was “Commando 1.” The other day, I saw one written “PF Idiot.”

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, are we in order, as a House, to allow the hon. Minister of Home Affairs together with the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication to abrogate his responsibility and allow lawlessness in this country to the detriment of the rights of members of the public to the extent that if a crime is committed using that particular vehicle, how does a member of the public go to the police or to the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) to lodge a complaint, ...

 

Hon. UPND Member: Look at them.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: ...  when they have allowed this lawlessness and those members of the public will have no recourse to the rule of law? Are they in order to allow lawlessness to reign in this country, when they themselves came to this House to tell us that they are going to curb lawlessness in this country? Are they in order, Sir?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

The point of order is directed at me.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: For you, it is just to wait and listen. That is all.

 

In order for me to decide which hon. Minister should respond to your concerns, you need to file a question.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hmm!

 

Mr Speaker: That will be informed by the question.

 

May the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i, please, continue.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted, I was saying that the issue of dip tanks in this country is very urgent. As you are considering the construction of dip tanks in Lumezi Constituency, have you taken into consideration the time frame, quality and chemicals? The dip tanks that what have been constructed in other constituencies, to date, have not been commissioned.

 

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, His Excellency, the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, gave a directive that we concentrate on completing the ongoing projects without embarking on new ones. The issue of dip tanks is an urgent matter because they eradicate tick borne and many others diseases which affect our livestock. Therefore, we are, indeed, considering this issue with the attention it deserves. We know that dip tanks are key in most areas where there are livestock farmers.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: This question relates to Lumezi.

 

Ms Miti (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries has indicated that the Government intends to construct two dip tanks in Lumezi. I know Lumezi is a vast district and the issue of dip tanks is a common problem in most rural areas. What alternative measures does the ministry have as people wait for the two dip tanks to be constructed in Lumezi?

 

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, livestock farmers in various camps use their initiative in areas where we have not constructed dip tanks. They use their own knapsacks and buy their own dip chemicals. Where we have dip tanks, we have committees that, with the number of farmers within those camps, are able to contribute a fee to buy chemicals which they use in the dip tanks to dip their livestock.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, in answering part (c) of the Question, the hon. Minister has said that dip tanks will be constructed in Munkanya and Vyombo. The hon. Minister will realise that just near the palace of Chief Mwanya …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mbulakulima: …cattle are dying. Do you have any plans to construct a dip tank just near the palace of Chief Mwanya?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Chief who?

 

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member of Parliament’s love for Chief Mwanya.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, what we are indicating is that the two sites that have been earmarked for the construction of dip tanks are in Nkanyu in Chikomeni and Vyombo in Lumezi Veterinary Camps. These two sites are near Chief Mwanya’s palace.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Mr Speaker, why has it taken so long to construct these dip tanks in Lumezi Constituency?

 

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, the delay in the construction of dip tanks – Let me indicate that the District Infrastructure Development Plan, at district level, has undertaken to construct the dip tanks. However, the delay has been on the procurement process as I indicated earlier. Once we complete the procurement process, we should be able to embark on the project and complete the dip tanks. This will be dependent on the availability of funds which will be released by the Treasury.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Miti (Feira): Mr Speaker, around 2015 and 2016, the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock constructed a number of dip tanks around the country, but most of them are not in use because they were constructed far away from water sources and I am afraid it could be the same issue with Lumezi. Now, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when they ministry will consider equiping the dip tanks across the country with water.

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the dip tanks to be constructed in Lumezi are of a standard size. I ask because if they are of a standard size, then the cost could be the same for other areas as well.

 

Mr Katambo: Mr Speaker, the ministry has embarked on a programme to standardise the bill of quantities, hence we have come up with a standardised price for dip tanks. That is why you heard me indicate that the cost for the two deep tanks will be K300,000. On a minimal, one dip tank will cost about K150,000. Therefore, even the ministry has gone further to strengthen the procurement process.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

Thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I am aware that there is a law that criminalises non-dipping of cattle. I want to find out from the hon. Minister, with this disadvantage on our people in Lumezi, is there anybody who has been prosecuted?

 

Mr Katambo: Indeed, Mr Speaker, it is an offence to not deliberately dip livestock or animals that farmers have. Livestock Veterinary Officers within the camps in the country usually go to sensitise people about the importance of dipping animals. Therefore, as regards those that do not dip their animals deliberately, the law takes its course.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

CONSTRUCTION OF POLICE POSTS IN MUFULIRA

 

292. Dr Chibanda (Mufulira) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

 

(a)        whether the Government has any plans to build police posts in the following areas in Mufulira District:

 

(i)         Kafironda/Kafue area;

 

(ii)        14 Miles along the Mufulira-Ndola road; and

 

(iii)       Corner Bar area, off the Mufulira-Ndola road;

 

(b)        if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

 

(c)        if there are no such plans, why.

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, the Government is, indeed, aware of the need for the police services in the three areas the hon. Member has referred to. However, as a ministry, we are equally bound to the policy directive that has been given of focusing on the projects that are 85 per cent complete. Only after that, will we be able to consider the new projects, as the hon. Member is suggesting.

 

However, as the ministry, we are willing to sit with the hon. Member of Parliament to look at the available options that can be used including that of apportioning the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and that of partnering together to see what can be done in these areas.

 

Mr Speaker, we do not have immediate plans to start these new projects in the areas stated and therefore, part (c) of the Question falls off.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

PLANS TO CONDUCT PUBLIC AWARENESS OF THE NATIONAL VALUES AND PRINCIPLES

 

293. Mr Simbao (Senga Hill) (on behalf of Mr Simfukwe (Mbala)) asked the Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance:

 

  1. whether the Government has any plans to conduct public awareness of the national values and principles;

 

  1. if so, when the plans will be implemented; and

 

  1. what the benefits of realising the national values and principles are.

 

The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa) (on behalf of the Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance (Rev. Sumaili)): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Religious Affairs and National Guidance has already started conducting public awareness of the national values and principles. The first public awareness of the national values and principles was conducted during the extraordinary Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committee (PDCC) meeting for the dissemination of the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) in all the ten provinces of Zambia, from 5th to the 15th November, 2017 in collaboration with the Ministry of National Development Planning. The stakeholders who were sensitised through this process included the Government officials, private sector, faith-based organisations, civil society and civic leaders.

 

In addition, this year, the ministry also conducted public awareness in the following provinces:

 

Province                   District                                    Radio Station

 

Northern       Kasama, Mungwi, Mbala,                   Mano in Kasama

                                 Mpulungu, Lunte and             Walamo in Mpulungu

                                 Luwingu

 

Western                    Senanga, Mongu and              Radio Mungu in Mongu,

                                 Kaoma                                     Oblate Radio Liseli in Mongu,

                                                                                 Radio Cheke in Kaoma

 

Central                     Kapiri-Mposhi                         Power FM in Kabwe

                                 Kabwe and Chibombo

 

Lusaka                      Chongwe

 

Southern                   Livingstone (clergy only)                   

 

Mr Speaker, further, the ministry has been running a weekly television programme on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), Television 1, every Saturday at 2100 hours called “Patriotism and National Unity.” This programme is equally being used to raise public awareness of the national values and principles. 

 

Sir, the ministry has also started engaging political parties to raise awareness on the national values and principles. So far, the leadership of nine political parties has been engaged. These include the Patriotic Front (PF), the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD), the United Party for National Development (UPND), the National Restoration Party (NAREP), the Citizens Democratic Party (CDP), New Congress Party (ZCP), the Zambia Republican Party (ZRP), Rainbow Party and Christian Democratic Party.

 

Mr Speaker, public awareness of the national values and principles has commenced and shall be ongoing. The process of promoting the national values and principles is premised on the understanding that when these positive cultural and behavioral aspects are internalised among the citizens, it will result in an enabling environment for the realisation of desired national development. The inculcation process seeks to explicitly bring out aspects which are viewed as positive and desirable for national development.

 

Sir, some of the specific benefits include:

 

  1. the defining of the collective national identity, describing who we are as Zambians and what binds us together, thus strengthening nationalism;

 

  1. enhancing personal discipline, productivity and national development by encouraging good morals and positive work ethics;

 

  1. promoting human dignity, equity, equality, social justice and non-discrimination, thus fostering unity, stability, social inclusion and national integration;

 

  1. promoting inclusivity, better understanding and appreciation of our diversity in order to strengthen social cohesion; and

 

  1. strengthening institutions that regulate and co-ordinate co-operation and collective action for the well-being of the country.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mrs M. Phiri (Nominated): Mr Speaker, there is this new trend in our country where lies, malice and propaganda are becoming part of life. Is the ministry thinking of coming up with a policy where the people who want to make us start believing in lies can be prosecuted?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Mr Speaker, everyone who is seated in this august House is tasked with the duty of coming up with legislation. If it is felt fit that we should introduce legislation to punish those who foster hate speech, it will be decided by this august House.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Kasonso (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, charity begins at home. Has the ministry conducted any workshops or meetings with the hon. Ministers and notorious District Commissioners (DCs) who need this awareness?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, the meetings have commenced. In my answer in the beginning, I said that they have commenced with provincial centres and amongst the participants of these meetings are Government officials, Ministers included.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister clearly touched on community radio stations in various places as the tool that will be used in effecting the awareness of the national values and principles. What is the ministry doing to influence the establishment of community radio stations in all areas, including extending the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) signal to various parts of the country, so that the awareness programmes can reach as many people as possible in remote areas?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Mr Speaker, the ministry has already commenced airing awareness programmes and the ZNBC has offered a free platform using Television (TV) 1. These programmes are being aired on TV 1 and can be viewed on this channel. The Ministry of Information and Broadcasting is considering expanding its visibility in terms of the national television. Wherever that is possible, I am sure the ZNBC will extend this facility.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, there are a lot of social evils that normally happen in the country ranging from criminality and other unwanted activities. Why does the ministry fail to publicly condemn such vices on public media so that people can really appreciate it? Normally, when such issues happen, the ministry is quiet to the detriment of society.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance in particular has been on record condemning some of these vices and it is not just the job of the ministry alone. All of us as leaders should be on board to inculcate the values of national guidance. Therefore, it is not just the job of the ministry alone. It is a job for all of us.

 

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, in the Government’s quest to increase the awareness of our national values and principles, I see the Church as very central in this particular programme. This is because churches are everywhere and in every community. What specific programmes does the ministry have to ensure that all churches embrace the promotion of national values because they will definitely enhance the spread of this information?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Mr Speaker, the ministry is promoting an open door policy and continuously engaging the clergy. It has also produced a document which is an overview of the national values and principles. This document is available at the ministry to substantiate what the ministry is doing to engage the clergy and the general public.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Ms Katuta: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that even hon. Ministers have been enlightened on the national values and morals. Has the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare been enlightened as well because the people of Chienge are being discriminated against from accessing the Social Cash Transfer on the basis of being affiliated with opposition parties? The registration of the Women Empowerment Programme is currently going on in Chienge and those who do not belong to the Patriotic Front (PF) Party have been told not to participate. Therefore, will the hon. Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance urge the Cabinet to ensure that no one is discriminated?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Mr Speaker, the PF Government is on record fostering development and leaving no one behind. It is not the hon. Minister’s job to identify who should receive the Social Cash Transfer. This is done with the full involvement of the community participating through their Ward Development Committees (WDCs), District Development Co-ordinating Committee (DDCCs) and Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committees (PDCCs). Therefore, when the names are being put together, the hon. Minister is not involved. However, if there is a complaint that the distribution of the Social Cash Transfer is not equitable, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge is free to put it in writing so that the matter can be investigated and then, appropriate action taken because it is not the hon. Minister’s responsibility to identify who should get what.

 

Thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, this issue of national values is a very ─

 

Dr Kambwili: On a point of Order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Dr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to raise this point of order which is extremely important.

 

Sir, Article 249 of the Constitution provides that there shall be an Auditor-General, who shall be appointed by the President, on the recommendation of the State Audit Commission, subject to ratification by the National Assembly.

 

Mr Speaker, it has been almost two years since Ms Anna Chifungula, the former Auditor-General, retired. Mr Ron Mwambwa has been the Acting Auditor-General for almost two years despite the Office of the Auditor-General being a very important and cardinal watchdog of governance in terms of revenue expenditure and issues of misappropriation of the State funds.

 

Sir, the Labour and Industrial Relations Act is very clear that anybody who acts continuously for a period of more than six months must automatically be confirmed. To remove the suspicion of why this gentleman has resigned as the Acting Auditor-General, is Her Honour the Vice-President in order to remain quiet and not to explain to this august House why he has been acting for a period of close to two years without being confirmed? Could it be that it was a plan to hound him out of the office because of the many revelations that the Auditor-General has made in the last two years?

 

Mr Speaker, we had a vacancy here at Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker: I think you have put your question.

 

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

 

Dr Kambwili: Within a short of period, it was filled and the person who filled it was confirmed. Why has it taken so long to confirm the Acting Auditor-General to an extent that the man is now frustrated and has resigned? Is Her Honour the Vice-President in order …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: … to remain quiet and not to explain to the nation why they failed to confirm this man who, by law, should have been automatically confirmed having acted for more than six months?

 

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is simple. The hon. Members on the left or the Opposition, including the Backbenchers of the Ruling Party to which you belong, are free to hold the Executive branch to account. We have several mechanisms for doing so. One of the common and popular mechanisms is to come to the Office of the Clerk and ask a question so that we, in turn, can ask the appropriate Minister on the right to come and explain the kind of situation you would want an answer.

 

That is what I will urge you to do. I will receive your question and forward it to the relevant ministry or office to respond to it.

 

That is my ruling.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member of Parliament for Senga Hill continue, please.

 

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted by that point of order, I was saying that national values are important for any country. A country that has diluted national values is a recipe for disaster in terms of progress or economics. I want to find out from the hon. Minister, would it not be necessary that a subject on national values is introduced in schools right from Grade One to university level, so that we can live as we should.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for that suggestion.

 

The Ministry of Religious Affairs and National Guidance is in consultation with all stakeholders, the Ministry of Education inclusive. Therefore, the suggestion is well taken and I am sure the ministry has made headway in terms of enhancing national values in people, especially the young children. Therefore, that will be taken on board and progress will be reported at an appropriate time to the nation.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

TARRING OF TOWNSHIP ROADS IN MKUSHI DISTRICT

 

294. Ms Mwape (Mkushi North) asked the Minister of Local Government:

 

  1. when the tarring of township roads in Mkushi District will be completed;

 

  1. what the cause of the delay in completing the project is; and

 

  1. what the time frame for the completion of the project is.

 

The Minister of Local Government (Mr Mwale): Mr Speaker, the project is expected to be completed in 2019.

 

Sir, the cause of the delay in completing the works has been the delay in paying the advance payments. However, this has now been settled. The contractor has already started mobilising equipment on site and works are expected to commence next month in July.

 

The contract duration is fourteen calendar months.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the issue of township roads is the same everywhere, Mazabuka included. The hon. Minister of Local Government has indicated the status of construction of these township roads in Mkushi, but last week, his boss, the President, made a pronouncement that any project that was below 80 per cent completion must be put on hold. Can he confirm now, to me, that he is defying the order of the President? If he is, when will he come to Mazabuka to construct roads since in this district he is at zero per cent?

 

Mr Speaker: Just a moment!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: Address yourself to the first part of the question.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we cannot assume that this project is below 80 per cent completion because we have not discussed the percentages of this project. This is not a new project. We are discussing completing projects, and so, we could be completing the project which is already above 80 per cent.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister in his response, has indicated that he has now sorted out the issue of funding for this project. Is he in a position to give me a bonus answer as to whether this sorting out of this challenge of funding is just peculiar to this project or to all projects of a similar nature since they came as a national programme?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, implementation of such projects is ongoing. We are making payments almost on a weekly or monthly basis because we are not broke. We have money and we just made this payment. This is not peculiar to this project. Therefore, the road construction projects, be it trunk roads, township roads or rural roads, are actually ongoing and most of them are going on very well.

 

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Kakubo (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, regarding the issue of township roads, the problems that are being experienced in Mkushi are crosscutting. Many of our constituencies are also affected and Kapiri Mposhi has not been spared. There are issues to do with contractors, payments being delayed and works not being completed. Sir, I would like to ask the hon. Minister when the ministry will be in a position to come to this august House and give us a comprehensive statement to avoid Members of Parliament asking the same questions, and also that we can know how far the projects are per province and per constituency, so that as Members of Parliament, we can pick out the information that is relevant to our constituencies to help us in our operations.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, that statement is ready. In fact, we are just waiting for Parliament to allocate it a slot. We prepared that statement because this request was also made last time and it has been outstanding since then. Therefore, we will liaise with the Office of the Hon. Mr Speaker to see when we can be given a slot to give a comprehensive statement on the matter.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I think I am being monotonous. I am aware that some time last year, the hon. Minister updated this august House on township roads that will be worked on in 2018, in a number of areas, which I think included Mkushi and Mufulira. Is he able now to categorically state to the House whether these township roads will be worked on with the revelation that there is financial constraint on projects that have not been started?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, maybe, let me take advantage of this question and just speak to the issue of 80 per cent and above. This way, maybe, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufulira will get his response.

 

It is true that there are so many projects that have to be completed and they are at various levels from 10 per cent to 90 per cent. As the Government, we have categorised the completion of these projects, that is, to deal with those that are at 80 per cent and above, complete them, find money again and come down to those that are maybe 40 to 79 per cent then move down to complete everything. Now, we want to focus on those that are almost complete, those that are at 80 per cent and above. The hon. Minister of Finance has mobilised resources. In fact, I can announce that by next week, these resources will be made available to the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) so that payments can be made.

 

Therefore, all the projects, not only road projects, but also schools, hospitals, clinics, houses and all the projects that are above 80 per cent must first be completed. Then, we will move to another level and embark on new projects. This is what is happening.

 

Sir, the resources have been mobilised and if that project in Mufulira is above 80 per cent, it will be completed in this first phase. If it is below 80 per cent, then only when we are done with the 80 per cent projects, we will begin to derive value from that. We will then go downwards and, again, make payments to that. This is the position, Mr Speaker, and I think I will give more details in the comprehensive report.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the elaborate statement.

 

Sir, the hon. Minister said that the time frame is up to 2019. However, he did not state the month when the works will commence.

 

Mr Speaker, I would like to bring to his attention that the contractor is behind by six months. It will be rainy season very soon. Since he has not indicated the month when the works will commence, could he kindly explain to the people of Mkushi which month the works will begin? As he might be aware, the road has been idle for a long time. Apart from that, since Independence, Mkushi has not had a tarred township road to bituminous standards. This situation has saddened the people of Mkushi. Could the hon. Minister explain today to the people of Mkushi so that they can hear for themselves? As he may be aware, this is a long weekend and I am always in my constituency during this time. I want to go and tell them exactly when the road will be completed.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I said that the works will start in July, 2018. As to part (c) of the Question, I said that the contract duration is fourteen calendar months. If the hon. Member adds fourteen from July, 2018, it will take her all the way to August, 2019. Therefore, all things being equal, we should be done by August, 2019.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

_______

 

MOTIONS

 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AFFAIRS, HUMAN RIGHTS, NATIONAL GUIDANCE, GENDER MATTERS AND GOVERNANCE

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, National Guidance, Gender Matters and Governance, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 26th June, 2018.

 

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 

Mr Jere: Mr Speaker, during the period under review, your Committee considered two topical issues. The first one was on the review of the operations of the Office of the Public Protector, (PP), while the second one was on the participation of the persons with disabilities in the electoral process. In order to gather information on these topics, your Committee solicited both written and oral submissions from both State and non-State stakeholders. Your Committee also held public hearings and stakeholder meetings during its local tours in order to consolidate its findings.

 

Sir, allow me now to highlight a few salient points contained in your Committee’s report. I will begin with the first topical issue relating to the operations of the Office of the Public Protector.

 

Mr Speaker, the House may recall that the Office of the PP was established following the enactment of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act, No. 2 of 2016. The office is established pursuant to Article 243 of the Constitution and prior to the Constitutional amendments, the office existed under the Commission of Investigations (CI) as the Office of the Investigator-General.

 

Sir, the constitutional changes also resulted in the enactment of the Public Protector Act No. 15 of 2016, which repealed and replaced the Commission for Investigations Act, Cap.39 of the Laws of Zambia. The powers and functions of the PP are spelt out in Articles 244 to 247 of the Constitution and are explained in detail in the Public Protector Act, which also provides for the administrative and operational arrangements of the office.

 

Mr Speaker, it is apparent that apart from enhancing the independence of this office, the new legal framework has broadened the mandate of the PP. However, your Committee is concerned that despite the new law, the office has continued to operate as before. This situation is compounded by the fact that the current office holder has continued to hold the office in an acting capacity even though it transitioned from being Investigator-General to PP.

 

Sir, your Committee urges the Government to normalise this situation as soon as possible as not doing so may weaken the PP and water down the authority and independence of the office, contrary to the intent of the constitutional amendments.

 

Mr Speaker, Your Committee further urges the Government to grant Treasury Authority to the Office of the PP so that vacant positions may be filled for the effective and efficient delivery of services to the general public. Without this, the office will continue to have the old ineffective structures, but only under a new name.

 

Sir, let me now briefly highlight some of your Committee’s findings on the participation of persons with disabilities in the electoral process. Sir, the House may be aware that Zambia is a State party to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD). The CRPD is the international blueprint on the promotion, protection and fulfillment of the rights of persons with disabilities including their right to participate in political and public life.

 

Mr Speaker, on its part, Zambia has ratified and domesticated some aspects of the CRPD, through the enactment of the persons with disabilities Act. No. 6 of 2012. The CRPD enjoins State parties to promote, protect and ensure the full and equal enjoyment of all human rights and fundamental freedoms by persons with disabilities. With regard to participation in the electoral process, it places an obligation on States to ensure that persons with disabilities can vote, get elected into office and contribute to the public life of society at all levels.

 

Mr Speaker, your Committee analysed the participation ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order on the left!

 

Mr Jere: ... of persons with disabilities in the electoral process by focusing on three phases of the electoral process, namely pre-election phase, voting or polling phase and post-election phase.  Your Committee found that on the whole, persons with disabilities were discriminated against in their quest to participate in the electoral process. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to take into consideration the recommendations in the report by instituting measures aimed at addressing some of the cross-cutting issues that entrench discrimination against persons with disabilities in the electoral process.

 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to extend your Committee’s profound gratitude to your office and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the support rendered to your Committee during its deliberations. Sincere thanks are also extended to my colleagues who constituted this Committee for their dedication to duty throughout this session.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Mr Speaker, lastly, I would also like to thank the stakeholders who provided valuable written and oral submissions to your Committee during its deliberations and local tours.

 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Mr Bwalya: Now, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker, thank you.

 

Sir, I rise to second the Motion moved by the Chairperson of your Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, National Guidance, Gender Matters and Governance, that this House adopt the Report of your Committee for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly.

 

Mr Speaker, in seconding the Motion, I would like to highlight some points relating to the participation of persons with disabilities in the electoral process. It is important to understand the different categorisation of disabilities in relation to specific requirements in order for them to effectively participate in the electoral process in the Republic of Zambia. This group of persons is not homogenous, but is in different categories with varied requirements. It is, therefore, important for bodies such as the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), which is mandated to manage the electoral process, to take into account this aspect in its planning process for the elections.

 

Your Committee commends the efforts of the ECZ during the 2016 general elections in providing electoral services to persons with disabilities. However, your Committee notes that a number of things were not put in place primarily because the ECZ did not collect sufficient data or statistics on the different categories of persons living with disabilities, thereby it rendered itself unable to provide the various services that are required by various categories of this group of people.

 

Mr Speaker, the general well-being of persons with disabilities has not been considered in relation to the electoral process. Your Committee visited two rural communities during its local tours and what it found was heartbreaking. The levels of poverty being experienced by persons with disabilities are extremely high. Persons with disabilities, especially children and women, cannot easily access socio-economic services, such as schools and hospitals, because they live very far from such facilities. As a matter of fact, your Committee found that participation in the electoral process was the least aspect of their problems. What they really care about for now is to put food on their table, have decent accommodation and access to quality health and education facilities.

 

Mr Speaker, persons with disabilities also complained that they are left out in the electoral process because of the provision of the Constitution which requires that for a person to qualify to stand for any position, he/she must have a Grade 12 Certificate. This has brought a lot of difficulties amongst persons living with disabilities because they have no access to education because of the state in which they are.

 

Mr Speaker, in light of the foregoing, your Committee urges the Government to upscale poverty reduction programmes, social protection programmes and the provision of other socio-economic services to persons with disabilities, especially those in rural areas. It is also true that the various stakeholders such as political parties discriminate against this category of people, and do not adopt a number of them when it comes to elections.

 

Mr Speaker, as State party to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, Zambia has an obligation to ensure that persons with disabilities are provided with the basic necessities of life such as shelter, water, food, health and education.

 

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you and wish to second the Motion.

 

Mr Syakalima (Chirundu): Mr Speaker, I have read the report of your Committee on the Public Protector. As usual, this particular Patriotic Front (PF) Government does not want to make straight anything to do with oversight. Here, we are being told that from 1974, it was called the Office of the Investigator-General and now, it called is the Office of the Public Protector. I think we did that because that has worked very well elsewhere like in South Africa. I still remember how, last year, when we were debating the Budget, I personally talked about funding this particular institution and that the money that we were allocating to it would not make it functional. I now suspect that it is deliberate. If it is not incompetence, then, it is deliberate or probably a combination of incompetence and its being deliberate. I am, however, suspicious that it is deliberate because the Government does not want these institutions which provide an oversight role to function.

 

Sir, I have in mind the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), which is almost non-existent now. It exists, but it is almost not there. The Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) which is supposed to deal with money laundering exists, but it is almost not there. To this list, we now add the Public Protector which is being killed at its embryonic stage. These other institutions have existed and then, they have been dwindled. We watch and we see what happens. Therefore, I am afraid that as long as the PF is in Government, this institution will never kick off. That is because the Government does not want many institutions that check them, these. For how long is the Government going to do this? According to your Committee’s report, your Committee welcomes the development and urges the Office of the Public Protector to leverage on this development and ensure that relevant reports are submitted to the National Assembly, an institution they are supposed to report to. That is according to your report, and legally so.

 

Mr Speaker, unfortunately, we could also be culprits. We should not fall into the scheme of another wing of Government. This Public Protector is supposed to report to us. According to the report, we seem not to be doing something ourselves. Therefore, we must be proactive as the other wing of Government. The other institutions report to other wings of Government. Therefore, if another institution is supposed to report to us, then we must be proactive. We must protect this country. Other institutions of governance are completely dead.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I have said this several times. The reason people behave this way in this country is that of the high levels of corruption. It all explains that where corruption flourishes like any other thing, people do not want institutions that can check them. This is why I am suspecting that it is deliberate. Here, we are told that for this institution to be operational, it requires about K70 million per year. We are only able to appropriate K15 million to it. Therefore, how then, can it survive? How can it fill its structure? The structure is non-existent. I am not quite sure whether our colleagues really mean business in trying to get the country where it is supposed to be. Our corruption index in the world is so weird. Therefore, this Public Protector, as the name suggest, is a public protector with a responsibility to check maladministration. This is why, as Her Honour the Vice-President was talking about ethics, values and principles, something was running in my mind. I was wondering whether I could offer to teach ethical behaviour. I know that it takes me one year to teach people ethics at the university. However, if we had a workshop for three days, that would suffice. I would teach about ethical behaviour in public life for free.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: All this is about ethical behaviour. Doing things that will help society is behaving ethically. If we do not do all this, we are killing society. It means we are destroying a country. We must realise that we are all in the afternoons or evenings of our own lives. The generations to come are the ones that we have to protect. There is no way we can say children should be taught in schools, yet our own behaviours are different.

 

Sir, I was taught that observable learning is the best kind of learning that we can have. Therefore, if you go to schools and start teaching children about ethics and principles, they will not learn because our behaviours are not ethical. Ethics should be part of our lives. That way, we can tell our children that there is an Office of the Public Protector, and that it is in the Constitution. The children will, according to the law, investigate for themselves or people will go and report wrongdoings to that office. When these children grow up, they will know that there is a Public Protector where they can report someone who is behaving badly. They will know that from a young age. How, then, do they grow ethically correct, when we ourselves are not behaving ethically correct? Children of nowadays know what corruption is. They know that corruption has destroyed this country. The reason the framers of the Constitution added more institutions to perform an oversight function is that they realised that society was getting off track.

 

When you talk of the police, you will see that they are unable to follow up crimes. You create the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC), but immediately the centre wants to do certain things, the Government goes there and lacerates it. That is almost killing all the institutions which perform an oversight function. The FIC was just recently created. It was not there in the past. Immediately it started doing its job, the Government shuts it up. The Government gets agitated saying it does not require this institution and, therefore, the people who run it must be dismissed.

 

Mr Speaker, when it comes to the Public Protector, the Government does not even want it to take off. It has to be killed at its embryonic stage. The country cannot be run like this. Unfortunately, the National Assembly, where the Public Protector is directly linked must take on this mantle. The Executive has already destroyed the country, and we will not join in doing that. How I wish you, hon. Ministers, were outside this Parliament. I am very annoyed with you.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, who are you annoyed with, hon. Member for Chirundu?

 

Mr Syakalima: With you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: With me?

 

Mr Syakalima: Yes.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: Anyway, depersonalise your debate. You may continue.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, when I say you, I am referring to the royal we, that is, all of us as Members of the National Assembly. This is very serious. We need to get serious with the country. There is something to protect. This is what makes me feel sad. This generation, ...

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.

 

 [MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Speaker, if you recall, last year, if I am not mistaken, as we were considering the Budget Estimates for 2018, I did indicate, especially on the Public Protector at that time, that I was worried that the institutions of the State and Government were being destroyed systematically because of the monies that were being appropriated. If you still recall, I exempted one institution, the Auditor-General, I said except for the Auditor-General who was striving very hard to work within the parameters of the Constitution and the Act. I am depressed today to hear that the Acting Auditor-General has resigned. One can only assume that it is out of frustration. Almost all the wings of the State and Government are being destroyed. Whilst we destroy other institutions, one would have reasonably thought that the Public Protector would come in, but even before it shoots off, it dies at embryonic stage.

 

Madam Speaker, let me just say this, our colleagues in the Government, should not only take keen interest in the reports of your Committees, and read the reports as a one-off issue, but should also go back to the drawing board and check what is exactly recommended in these reports. What I see is that our colleagues do not attach great importance to these reports. Time and again, when you check the Action-Taken-Report; you will still find that they have not acted on several recommendations. This cuts across all the ministries. If every report is complaining about the Government, some of us who take interest in reading everything, I am afraid; would be saying we have no Government. At the end of the day, one would say, you have no country apart from the boundaries which were created by colonialists. However, certain things must be taken seriously. Colleagues, you must be in a hurry to leave some legacy. I know you are on your way out.

 

Hon. PF Members: To where?

 

Mr Syakalima: However, you have a job to do. Even Jericho had to fall. What about you? Jericho which was made out of –

 

Mr Belemu: It was more sinful than you.

 

Mr Syakalima: Yes!

 

Therefore, let our colleagues take keen interest and really implement what these Committees of Parliament do. I talked about the Public Protector last year. This year, I am, again, being reminded about the Public Protector. I do not like to be reminded every year about the same thing. If you are in my class, you will be redirected for poor results. Now that you are in the Zambian class, you will be redirected very soon. Before you exit, do something so that whoever comes will not start afresh for it will make another Government troubled? Look at the debt that you have accumulated. This is why you are not funding this Public Protector. It is because you are remitting over US$800 million every month. Therefore, how can you fund the Public Protector?

 

Madam Speaker, as I always say, this year, there will be a Budget Speech and the President’s Speech. I do not want to repeat these words. It is monotonous to say something time and again for five years. How do you feel to be told the same words every year, every time? People can, say “ndinyu ba chungutwi”, someone without ears. God will not come here and rescue us the way he was talking to Moses because he has given you the brain, eyes and ears to hear. If you do not hear today, that is your fault.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, we would be doing very well as a country, including in times of elections particularly looking at sectors of our population like people living with disabilities as the report says on pages 13 and 14. Unfortunately, the hon. Members on your left are very violent. This matter should have been included in your report.

 

Yes, Madam Speaker, those hon. Members on your left are extremely violent.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Dr Malama: In Chilanga, during the last elections, …

 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: …people living with disabilities failed to go and vote.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, I stand here as an ashamed man.

 

Hon. PF Members: Why?

 

Mr Miyutu: I do not know how to describe the words the hon. Member who is debating is using.

 

Is he in order to refer to everybody who is on the left side of your chair, Madam Speaker, that they are violent.

 

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Speaker, is he in order to label me …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Miyutu: …a person who represents the innocent people of Kalabo where we do not know pangas − Is he in order to classify me and the rest of us on the left side of the House as violent people.

 

I seek your serious ruling on this matter, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is that the hon. Member for Kanchibiya is certainly out of order …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: …to refer to all the hon. Members on my left as being violent. If he is going to make a specific reference, he will need to adduce evidence and substantiate that claim that some people are violent. In so far as that statement is concerned that every hon. Member on my left is violent, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya is out of order. Can the hon. Member take that into account as he debates?

 

Continue hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, certainly, you are correct. My mulamu is not violent, for sure. I was caught in midstream. I had not pre-empted my speech. When I say “violence”, I am talking about their party …

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: …as represented by their party President.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, during election period, you will expect a responsible party President to emulate the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

 

Dr Malama: This is a Christian nation. You cannot motivate your members to be violent. In Chilanga, our party President, who is the Republican President ensured that our cadres were not violent against our colleagues, but it was not so.

 

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I really do not need protection, but just need some silence from them. I can handle the heckling, but not the noise.

 

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my left. The hon. Member for Kanchibiya is normally a very calm debater. I would urge him to continue with his usual style of debate. Also, hon. Member, please, pay attention to the content of the report. The report has dealt with too many issues which are the rights of persons with disabilities in the electoral process and the Office of the Public Protector. Please, focus on those two major issues, hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I thank you, for the guidance. Where I come from, they say, “Ukufundo mwana, kufikapo.”

 

Hon. UPND Members: Meaning!

 

Dr Malama: This means that to teach a child, you have to be thorough or factual. I was in Chilanga during the by-elections and what we observed there was alarming. People with disabilities were disenfranchised. They could not vote because at every corner, you found UPND cadres wielding pangas.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

 

Dr Malama: Most of the people who were attacked belonged to the Patriotic Front (PF). I am speaking like this because next month, we will be going into other by-elections and we want to see people living with disabilities vote. In Chilanga, women were attacked. The names of those who were involved in this violence are known and even their party orientation. You can see that our colleagues’ party was extremely violent.

 

Madam Speaker, we are talking about ethics. May a clear message be sent, especially to the UPND leadership that they should not encourage violence in this nation. 

 

Ms Lubezhi interjected.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I respect women a lot and I will not take that kind of comment from my sister. That comment from my beautiful sister, …

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my left. Continue, hon. Member for Kanchibiya.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I was just saying that I respect women a lot and I will not respond to the comments from the Member on your left who was just commenting.

 

Madam Speaker, the people who were attacked in Chilanga as they were going to vote were women and the disabled. Some blood of someone who was attacked, as we were taking them to the clinic, fell on my face. Therefore, you are right to observe that I am usually calm, but I was in the thick of it. I do not want to see it repeated. Yes, indeed, our colleagues seated on the left are not violent. We always sit and talk together, but we cannot allow the principles that their party is expounding. We cannot allow this to continue. It is not leadership to encourage your cadres to attack other people. A responsible parent should be able to tell a child not to engage in a fight ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: … and not to attack people. When you tell your child to defend himself –

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, you can see, they are already annoyed. This morning, someone was telling the Hon. Mr Speaker that he was very annoyed with him when he just came and sat in the Chair.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, early in the morning, when the innocent Hon. Mr Speaker was just guiding, someone said that he was annoyed with him.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, the Hon. Mr Speaker is extremely capable of taking care of himself and I think he managed that part very well this morning. Let me also take this opportunity to give some counsel. On the issue of violence, on both sides, the right and the left, if I as Chair allow anyone of you to accuse each other without evidence, we will be attracting reactions and it will be very difficult for us to proceed. Your continuous reference to the United Party for National Development, hon. Member for Kanchibiya, may not be a very good way to debate because if the Opposition reacts by accusing your side of violence, it will be very difficult for me to stop them.

 

For that reason, I would like you to refrain from mentioning the UPND party as being violent unless you can give me evidence to that effect. Likewise, if they were on the Floor, I would stop them from referring to the PF as being violent unless they can give me evidence to that effect. Heed my counsel and debate generally.

 

Continue with your debate.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I will not refer to the UPND following your guidance, but there is a minority party …

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: …whose leadership is encouraging panga for panga. What sort of a minority party is this? Its membership comprises our people and we love them.

 

We do not want to see any bloodshed from the Patriotic Front (PF) members, minority party, …

Mrs M. Phiri: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: … people with disabilities or those who are saying panga for panga.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: We are a responsible Ruling Party.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mulenga: And we fear God.

 

Dr Malama: Our people in Chilanga, Lusaka ─ yes, and above all, we fear God.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama: Madam Speaker, we need to tell it as it is. Some minority party is very violent and people need to move away from it.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the report submitted by the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, National Guidance, Gender Matters and Governance.

 

I will try to focus on a subject that was discussed and reported by your Committee and has to do with the participation of persons with disabilities in the electoral process in Zambia. Your Committee’s report has highlighted that Zambia as a country is a signatory or party to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (CRPD). This, therefore, entails that the Government of Zambia is obligated to ensure that it promotes and protects the full participation or enjoyment of all the human and fundamental freedoms by all persons with disabilities.

 

There are different groupings of persons with disabilities. There are those who are physically handicapped, the dumb, visually impaired and other different categories. Therefore, the Government must ensure that they are all catered for as far as participation in the electoral process is concerned. Your Committee’s report has indicated that there are several fundamental difficulties that persons with disabilities have endured and still continue to endure. One of them is the poverty levels within these groupings. We deal with this issue in our constituencies and we need to find ways of embracing these groupings since for many years, we have left them behind.

 

Madam Speaker, when it comes to education, for many years, our society has not allowed them get to levels of education that would ensure that they participate in both the governance and electoral processes. A number of them have never seen the inside of a classroom. If they have done so, they probably have not progressed because their parents could not afford to get them to schools in urban centres. When it comes to the poor participation in the electoral process, our society is still stigmatising these groupings. We stigmatise them and one wonders why our society is behaving like this. We do not even help them get to polling stations later on gatherings that political parties plan for. One imagines how one who is blind or lame gets to political rallies. These are basically the challenges that they still continue to face and the reason they may not participate fully in the electoral process.

 

Therefore, your Committee has ably indicated the need to have some affirmative action. We can change some of our laws and ensure that there is some affirmative action so that people with disabilities can also start participating in different activities. Even amidst us, we would want to see their representation in this august House because they have challenges that are very peculiar to them. We cannot speak on their behalf and can only help because we do not feel it. Therefore, it is important that within our governance system, we get to the level where we become inclusive so that they can get positions not only in Parliament, but, also in all the governance structures. As it is now and as the law stands, it is extremely difficult for them to even participate in the electoral process.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee has given a number of recommendations and observations. I would quickly wish to talk about one of them which is the distances between polling stations in our constituencies. These distances are too wide apart. It is a nightmare for any physically disabled person to participate in the electoral process. Unless and until the offices that are entrusted with this responsibility delimit and ensure that polling stations are as close as possible to where people live, we will probably not see people with disabilities participate in the electoral process. However, as of now, it is extremely very difficult for our brothers and sisters to participate meaningfully. Without taking much time, these are some of the things that I wanted to highlight. The Government needs to do much more to ensure that it embraces and includes our brothers and sisters who are disabled in different ways to ensure that they also participate in the electoral process.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sampa (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to represent the wonderful people of Kasama. Your Committee touched on quite a number of pertinent issues. I will streamline and focus on the issue of human rights.

 

First and foremost, human rights are moral principles or norms that describe certain standards of human behaviour and are regularly protected as natural and legal rights in municipal and international law. Zambia as a State is a signatory to the United Nations (UN) Charter that also looks at human rights. In the universal declaration of human rights, all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

 

However, concerning the issue of people with disability, in as much as the report that has been presented touched on part on the issues that affect them, I also want to state that I am glad that we are speaking about human rights today in Parliament when we should have handled this matter even during the Referendum. This is because the failure of the Referendum to go through is what has also exacerbated the issues we are discussing today.

 

Madam Speaker, during the election period, the country was robbed of an opportunity that that could have ensured some of the issues that border on people with disabilities were also handled.

 

Well, I will not only dwell on the issues of why people with disabilities fail to access the electoral process, but also on the many other issues that also affect them such as being sexually abused and some of these cases rarely get reported. Some of the persons with disabilities are impregnated within their homes by people who are known to them and these cases are not reported. The worst part is that when such cases occur, we have not had serious safety nets, where we can actually take care of these people.

 

For this reason, Madam Speaker, I would like to urge the Government to include some of these issues into the Constitution. Despite that, we were robbed off an opportunity, but at least, we can try to do something to include some of these issues that are greatly affecting our people.

 

In most of the times, it becomes quite a challenge for people with disability to access education, especially those that are living in rural areas.

 

Madam Speaker, speaking for the majority of people who are disabled, I would like to say that they find it difficult to access medical care, leaving some of them dying in their homes. I would have loved some of these issues to be outlined in the report. Despite the Committee touching on many pertinent matters, I felt that as a Member of Parliament for Kasama Central, I needed to add my voice on this matter.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President and Acting Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance (Ms Chalikosa): Madam Speaker, I wish to express my gratitude to the Chairperson and the hon. Members of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, National Guidance, Gender Matters and Governance for tabling this report for debate before the House. Indeed, the Government, through the Ministry of Gender, will continue to promote the rights and well-being of both women and men in Zambia in our efforts to bring about inclusive and sustainable development and this includes persons with disabilities.

 

Madam, the Government will continue to foster the partnerships with all the concerned stakeholders and our co-operating partners to promote equality in whatever programmes and activities that the country is undertaking. In this regard, the Government, through the Ministry of Gender, will lobby for the implementation of rolling out the Anti-Gender Based (GB) Fast Track courts, particularly that women and girls with disabilities are at a high risk of being abused and require the services of the Public Protector amongst other public institutions charged with the execution of social justice.

 

The Office of the Public Protector has been highlighted in the report, Madam Speaker, in terms of its not being adequately funded. I can assure the House that the Ministry of Finance is actively pursuing this concern. Very soon, we should be able to get Treasury authority to keep the Office of the Public Protector up and running.

 

Madam Speaker, creating awareness amongst children and young people with special attention to boys and young men, is an activity which is being carried out by the Government in almost all the ministries. This does not exclude the persons with different abilities or disabilities. These are people who need to know what their rights are and they are being sensitised to make them aware of their rights and where they can take their complaints, particularly with institutions such as the Victim Support Unit (VSU) that are within the police station.

 

With these few words, Madam Speaker, I wish to thank all the people who debated and reassure the House that the Ministry of Gender, the Office of the Public Protector will take the recommendations and observations of the Committee report seriously.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, in winding up debate, I would like to thank the Member of Parliament for Lupososhi for ably seconding the Motion. Many thanks go to the following Members of Parliament: The hon. Member for Chirundu, the hon. Member for Kanchibiya, the hon. Member for Kaputa and the hon. Member for Kasama Central for their contributions and support to the Committee’s report.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

_______

 

BILLS

 

SECOND READING

 

THE CREDIT REPORTING BILL, 2018

 

The Minister of Finance (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 

Madam, Speaker, financial infrastructure is the backbone of all financial systems. The quality of financial infrastructure, determines the efficiency of financial intermediation, the ability of lenders to evaluate risk and the ability of consumers to obtain credit and other financial products at competitive terms.

 

Madam Speaker, within the financial infrastructure is a credit infrastructure which is essential for facilitating credit provision. In assessing whether to provide credit or not, lenders look at a number of things. The major considerations are as follows:

 

  1. Credit history: this is an assessment of the borrower’s reputation or track record on repaying debts;

 

  1. Capacity: this measures the borrower’s ability to repay a loan by comparing income against any existing obligations;

 

  1. Capital: this is the money the borrower puts towards a potential investment; and

 

  1. Collateral: this gives the lender the assurance that if the borrower defaults on the loan, the lender can repossess the collateral.

 

In order for lenders, especially commercial banks to obtain the above information quickly and efficiently, there is a need for a credit information system. Since information on credit is confidential and sensitive, there is a need for a law and an institutional framework that governs how credit information is obtained and provided.

 

Madam Speaker, the Credit Report Bill will, therefore, provide a legal backing for the credit information system in the country. The Bill will also provide the legal framework for effective, efficient and integrity based credit reporting with adequate checks against abuse of consumer data and incidences of inaccurate information.

 

Issues to be Resolved

 

Madam Speaker, it is necessary to introduce the Credit Report Bill, 2018, in Parliament as the Bill seeks to provide for an appropriate legal and regulatory framework for a credit reporting system in Zambia. This should foster national economic growth by enhancing access to credit through reduced information asymmetry between lenders and borrowers and improving the credit culture in the country. The Bill will contribute to the enhancement of efficiency, stability and safety of personal credit data by establishing a sound legal basis for credit reporting services in Zambia.

 

Objective of the Amendment Bill

 

Madam Speaker, the specific objectives of the Bill are:

 

  1. the regulation of the credit reporting agencies by the Bank of Zambia;

 

  1. the licensing of credit reporting agencies;

 

  1. the establishment of a Credit Registry;

 

  1. the governance and management of credit reporting agencies;

 

  1. the protection of data subjects; and

 

  1. information sharing and reporting to enable assessment of credit worthiness of a data subject.

 

Ramification of the Bill

 

Madam Speaker, through this law, it is expected that the benefits to consumers/borrowers, and MSMEs will include:

 

  1. faster processing of loan applications;

 

  1. ability to obtain interest rates that are reflective of borrower’s credit reputation; and;

 

  1. incentive to pay back loans, knowing that the credit behaviour is being recorded.

 

Madam Speaker, benefits to banks, financial institutions and other lenders will include:

 

  1. existence of a database that enables faster and efficient credit assessment;

 

  1. ability to engage in credit risk pricing; and

 

  1. ability to reach more clients on the basis of client’s reputational collateral.

 

Madam, benefits to the broader economy will include:

 

  1. increase in access to finance and consequently contribution to productivity and economic growth; and

 

  1. lower incidence of non-performing loans because financers will now be able to conduct robust credit assessments and there will be a disincentive to dishonor loan obligations on the part of borrowers.

 

Madam Speaker, in view of the importance of a functional credit information system, I recommend that the Credit Reporting Bill receives favourable consideration.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Miti (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, in accordance with its terms of reference, as provided in the Standing Orders, your Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Credit Reporting Bill, 2018. In order to acquaint itself with the ramifications of the Bill, your Committee sought both written and oral submissions from stakeholders.

 

Mr Speaker, most of the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee raised concerns on a number of issues in the Bill. Of the key issues which were highlighted under Clause 4, was the regulation of credit reporting agencies. The stakeholders were of the view that the designation of the Bank of Zambia as a regulator or credit reporting agencies was a welcome move as it would ensure that there was sanity in the management of date subjects.

 

In the same vein, the stakeholders observed that licensing of credit reporting agencies in Clause 5 would ensure that only credible agencies who met the registration requirements were licensed and allowed to maintain financial information on a data subject.

 

Sir, let me draw your attention to Clause 10 of the Bill. Most of the witnesses expressed concern that the provision appeared to imply that the licence issued to a company to operate as a credit reporting agency had no validity period and that it could only be revoked for the reasons specified under Clause 15 of the Bill. In this regard, they recommended that the validity tenure of a licence be specified.

 

Mr Speaker, regarding Clause 15 and 16 of the Bill, …

 

Hon. Members: Madam Speaker!

 

Ms Miti: Madam Speaker, I am sorry.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Gender Equality!

 

Ms Miti: Madam Speaker, regarding Clause 15 and 16 of the Bill, the stakeholders observed that these clauses provided for the power and grounds for suspension and cancellation of licences. Clause 16 requires a credit reporting agency whose licence is cancelled to hand over all credit information within its possession to the Bank of Zambia within a time determined by the bank. However, the stakeholders expressed concern on the non-availability of a procedure to challenge revocation of a licence for a credit reporting agency or to get injunctive relief. They observed that this was contrary to the spirit of Article 10 of the Constitution, which promotes and protects economic investment. Therefore, they submitted that the clause should expressly provide for a dispute resolution mechanism or injunctive relief to the applicants under this section.

 

Madam Speaker, you may also wish to know that the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee supported the prohibition of owning shares in more than one credit reporting agency without prior written approval of the Bank and Zambia under Clause 20. They all supported this provision as it would ensure independence of the credit reporting agencies. However, they recommended that the Bill should indicate the manner of obtaining approval to own shares in more than one credit reporting agency by providing that the application shall be in the prescribed manner and form.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee observes that the Chairperson of the Ad hoc Committee Appeals Tribunal under Clause 49 must be an advocate of, at least, seven years standing. However, your Committee is of the view that the Chairperson must be an advocate who is eligible for appointments as a High Court Judge and, therefore, must have at, least, ten years standing at the Bar.

 

Madam Speaker, the proposed law will enable the credit history of a date subject to be known. This will ultimately reduce the cost of borrowing and enable the credit providers to issue personalised loans so that the low risk borrowers are subjected to cheaper credit than the high risk ones.

 

Madam Speaker, as I end, I wish, on behalf of your Committee, to express gratitude to you for the opportunity given to the Committee to scrutinise the Credit Reporting Bill.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Miti:  Further, I also wish to thank the Clerk and her staff for the unwavering support to your Committee in scrutinising the Bill. Last, but not least, I wish to pay tribute to all the stakeholders who made oral and written submissions on the Bill to your Committee.

 

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Munkonge (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on this Bill. However, I will keep my contribution short.

 

Madam Speaker, the Credit Reference Bureau should also include issues which protect the borrower in the instance where the banking or the lending institute is practising unethical conduct. We have seen this through evaluating fees. Perhaps, they could also put a report back to the Bank of Zambia if one has a specific lending institution which keeps reporting credit defaults or if its practices are wrong. There is a timeline issue and how quickly the lending institution is. Sometimes, borrowers are given poor credit rating when a matter is in court, but the bank is able to report quickly to the credit bureau. Therefore, I thought those sort of things should also be integrated into the bureau.

 

Madam Speaker, the other issue is the controversy with credit institutes. There could be borrowers who are being subjected to loan shark conditions through some of the financing agencies which now have interest rates which need to be investigated, not to belabour the issue, the Credit Bureau Agency should also have the ability to report on the lenders.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, thank you. I also want to thank your Committee for spending time and effort to go through this Bill. I have taken note of the recommendations made by the Committee and the Chairperson of the Committee and also the comments by Hon. Munkonge.

 

Madam Speaker, with that, I would like to say thank you to the House for the overwhelming support of the Credit Reporting Bill, 2018.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Friday, 6th July, 2018.

 

THE PUBLIC-PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP (Amendment) BILL, 2018

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

 

Madam Speaker, the introduction of the Public-Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, 2018, will ensure that the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Unit is a key player in fostering development in Zambia through enhanced co-operation between the private sector and the Government.

 

Madam Speaker, it is necessary to introduce the Public-Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, 2018 in Parliament as the Bill seeks to revise the functions of the unit, being a department in the Ministry of Finance, to revise the functions of the PPP Council, and to provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

Madam Speaker, the objective of this Bill is to amend the Public-Private Partnership Act No. 14 of 2009 so as to:

 

  1. revise the functions of the PPP Unit in order to address the duplication of functions as observed by Parliament in 2017;

 

  1. revise the functions of the PPP Council in order to make it more efficient by removing technical and administrative functions;

 

  1. revise the composition of the PPP Technical Committee and the PPP Council in order to realign them to PPP operations; and

 

  1. provide for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

Madam Speaker, the amendment of the Public-Private Partnership Act No. 14 of 2009, is critical to the effective and efficient implementation of the PPP projects in Zambia. Failure to do so now may negatively affect the implementation of the PPP programmes and projects in Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, the following, therefore, are the envisaged ramifications of the proposed amendment of the Public-Private Partnership Act No. 14 of 2009:

 

  1. strengthening of the PPP Unit: the Public-Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, 2018, is intended to strengthen the PPP Unit in order to enable it to deliver the PPP projects effectively and more efficiently. This will be achieved by removing the regulatory and monitoring and evaluation functions that are mandates of other agencies of the Government; and

 

  1. in the Bill, the PPP Unit is established as the Public-Private Partnership Department which shall be responsible for the implementation of the provisions of the Act.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the Bill addresses the issues that had been a matter of concern to the Government and if enacted into law, it will facilitate for improved and efficient implementation of privately financed infrastructure projects and effective delivery of social services. In view of the importance of ensuring that the PPP Department remains a key player in fostering development in Zambia, through enhanced cooperation between the private sector and the Government, as Government, we recommend that the Public-Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, 2018, receives favourable consideration by the House. Such partnerships have helped accelerate infrastructure development in many national and sub-national jurisdictions across the world, and we need to support the implementation of the PPPs in Zambia.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Miti: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to present the views of your Committee on National Economy, Trade and Labour Matters on the Public-Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, National Assembly Bill No.7 of 2018, for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly appointed on Wednesday, 20th September, 2017.

 

Madam Speaker, the Public-Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, 2018 transforms the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Unit into a full-fledged department under the ministry responsible for finance. Further, the Bill revises the functions of the PPP Council and provides for matters connected with, or incidental to, the foregoing.

 

Madam Speaker, most stakeholders who appeared before your Committee were in support of the Bill. Hence, I will simply highlight some of the key points and concerns they raised, which your Committee supports.

 

Madam Speaker, most stakeholders supported the upgrading of the unit into a department. They explained that the establishment of the PPP Department in the ministry responsible for finance will ensure that it is adequately resourced both in terms of human and financial resources to enable it to serve as a viable vehicle for resource mobilisation.

 

Madam Speaker, the stakeholders supported Clause 6 which has increased the number of ministers appointed by the President to the Council as this recognises the structural changes in the Government.

 

Madam Speaker, while it has been appreciated that the proposed Public-Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, 2018, is progressive, as it provides safeguards in the contraction of the PPPs and further, that it will enhance public confidence for successful implementation of the PPPs in Zambia, there are some impediments your Committee identified and I wish to highlight some of them.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee’s first observation is on the amendment of Clauses 26 to 28. Your Committee observes with concern that the proposed amendment has not given clear guidelines on the PPP process. Currently, the process takes too long and this negatively affects the achievement of its intended objectives. Your Committee strongly recommends that the Bill include a clear understanding of the PPP process specifically the type of reports that have to be submitted by the contracting authorities as this would reduce on unnecessary delays. Your Committee further recommends that the PPP Council find other ways of reducing the time of completing the PPP process, which has been observed to be tedious in the current dispensation.

 

Madam Speaker, the last issues your Committee wishes to comment on is the lack of capacity by contracting authorities. Your Committee bemoans the lack of capacity exhibited by public officers in the negotiations of PPPs with private firms. One case in point is the University of Zambia (UNZA) whose PPP project has no clarity to date, on what period was agreed upon with the concessionaries. Further, it has been noted that there is a variation on the intended scope of the contract, which your Committee finds highly irregular. As it stands today, it is not clear to your Committee why the contract was varied from the initial building of student hostels to building other infrastructure including warehouses, bars and shops, among others.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee strongly recommends that the new PPP institution ensure that there is adequate capacity in the contracting authority before undertaking any PPP project. In the case of UNZA, your Committee also recommends that the agreement be renegotiated without any further delay to protect public good. It is a feeling of your Committee that all available options must be explored including cancelling the agreement to protect public interest.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee further recommends that the law clearly define the PPP agreements structure and spell out the minimum and maximum period of a concession to avoid what has been prevailing on most PPP projects in the country.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, your Committee wishes to thank all the stakeholders who appeared before it and tendered both oral and written submissions. Gratitude goes to you, Madam Speaker, for affording your Committee an opportunity to study the Bill. Your Committee also appreciates the services rendered by the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff during its deliberations.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to support the Report of the Committee on the Public Private Partnership (PPP). I also want to echo the sentiments of the Committee by stating that in most instances, when it comes to the PPPs, the Government always has a weaker negotiating role. At the end of the day, you have situations where once a project has already kicked off, like in the examples being given, it becomes very difficult for the Government to negotiate.

 

Madam Speaker, as the Government, we must put measures in place to ensure that the negotiating teams are fully equipped to negotiate with our prospective partners. This is because it is pointless to allow a project to run up to full course, to let it become operational and then wake up one day and want to re-negotiate its terms. That makes the Government look like it has no bargaining power. I want to use the proposed partnership of the Zambian Government and the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) with Ethiopian Airlines as an example. People have questioned how the Government can negotiate with so much weakness that it would allow an airline like Ethiopian Airlines to come to Zambia and bring its finished aeroplanes here. Ethiopian Airlines aeroplanes have been banned from flying into the European airspace, yet we allow them to start operating between Lusaka and Addis Ababa. You even say that Zambia is ready to welcome this foreign investment from Ethiopian Airlines. We have an airline and the passengers. Why can we not just run our own? If you look at the airlines worldwide, you will see that they are all struggling. However, these airlines are still making their money.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to urge the people who negotiate on behalf of the IDC, the Ministry of Finance, the Ministry of National Development and Planning and everybody else, that this country is not desperate for partnerships. We do not need certain partnerships. We can go it alone. For example, if you are flying to Europe today, you will spend not less than US$2,000 on an air ticket. We always have planes landing at the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA). We can raise our own airline and finances without bringing in finished airlines. Some of the aircrafts are just dumped here, and then as a country, you want to wake up and say we want to re-negotiate this partnership. Why do we not negotiate these partnerships before these projects take off? I am saying so because I have heard the debates that are out there. We are always crying about the PPP that we have entered into. People are complaining and saying we are spending too much money as tax payers and reaping nothing.

 

Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister for Lusaka Province he was advocating for the cancellation of the East Park Mall/UNZA PPP. It has been three or four years since that project was launched. Why have we only realised that now? Why do we always realise afterwards that we have the potential to put up some of this investment on our own and that we did not need a partner from South Africa to come and put up all that infrastructure and give us change.

 

Madam Speaker, if you want to rent a shop at East Park Mall, the managers of the mall will measure for you. For example, you will be told that one square metre will cost K1,000 per month. The Government cannot fail to put up such an investment on its own. UNZA, if funded properly and adequately by the Government – if we brought in our own people such as the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), they can run such businesses. NAPSA is busy building shopping malls. We have seen that it has the capacity. Do we need to go and get money from abroad when we know that this project will be here for fifty years before we start getting our returns? Why do we not work with institutions like NAPSA, which constructed Levy Mwanawasa Mall, Kafubu Mall and Edgar Lungu Mall? We have the potential to do all that.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to tell the hon. Minister of Finance that this PPP Bill must always give the Government an upper hand. It is like negotiating with a visitor when he comes into your house and tells the owner of the house to leave the bedroom and the sitting room for him. You then start staying outside. Afterwards, you realise that it is cold, you then wake up and say I want to go back into the house. It does not work like that. Firstly, that will expose you to a lot of litigation. You will be going to court year in and year out. While you are in court, the investor is busy making money. Secondly, it will expose the Government to a lot of risks such as the cancellation of insurance policies and a lot other issues will have to come in.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to say, on behalf of the people of Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency, that let us not come up with a Bill and then three months after, we wake up and say we want to amend it. Let the consultation process take a bit of time. Let us speak to whoever has anything to say about this matter. The biggest challenge that we have faced is that Zambia has a wide range of laws. There are very good and strong provisions in the law. However, the Bill must state who will enforce it. That is because most of these laws simply say the hon. Minister without specifying which particular minister. Is it the hon. Minister of Finance, Commerce, Trade and Industry, Labour and Social Security or the hon. Minister of National Development and Planning?

 

Therefore, our laws must be very clear so that when we have a problem in any PPP, we can simply run to that particular ministry. That Bill should also give the hon. Minister power to review the agreements. I speak as a lawyer because in most cases, we enter into agreements which have no way out. You have a closed box and there is no room for the Government to escape, yet there is room for the investor to run away, cancel and retreat. However, you find that there is no room for the Government to negotiate or change. If, for instance, the Government changed its law, it should be very easy for it to call the private partner and say we have shifted this policy and so we cannot sign agreements for sixty years.

 

Look at that Kamwala’s Luburma Market. I do not know if all of us will be there sixty years from now. You say the Lusaka City Council has signed a Public Private Partnership for sixty years without the Government having a say. Just the council on its own sits and agrees to sign a partnership for that long. Our own traders were kicked out of those shops. It is the foreigners who are managing to pay rentals in dollars. Now, we want to, again, introduce a Bill that will not be very clear. We want the Bill, but we also want the Government to place its authority. The Government is a sovereign entity and should have the capacity to say no.

 

Madam Speaker, we cannot always be sending people who will agree to everything to negotiate. In fact, I think our Republican Constitution now mandates this august House to have a say. That is why these Bills are passing through this place. Now, we want to state that when the Bills are passed, hon. Minister of Finance, sit down with the people from the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC). We have heard many complaints from our people out there that the IDC is not doing the Government a favour for it has become complacent. It is even resisting Government directives. The Government says we are going this route, but the IDC goes the other route. When you discover or stumble across a problem, then we say, let us renegotiate, it is too late. I can assure you, it will be too expensive and risky for the Government to reverse everything. We saw it happen with Zambia Telecommunications Company Limited (Zamtel). When the Government reversed the sale of Zamtel, how much money did it pay? I am sure it is still paying. Therefore, let us avoid those costly mistakes and ensure that we protect the future of this nation. Let us also ensure that all the partnerships are beneficial to the people of Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I will give you one last example. If you go to advanced countries like China, Belgium, Italy or France, when a person is coming to negotiate a partnership with the Government, the Government has its own set standards and regulations. Therefore, you will just pull file number one which says if you are coming to invest in tourism, one, you are supposed to employ 50 per cent local people and all the locals in this areas are supposed to benefit. However, in Zambia, there are public private partnerships where foreign investors will come with their labour and everything. When they finish, we do not even know at what point the Government begins to collect its dues. Therefore, we must begin to open up these channels. I think we have learnt enough lessons and we have enough examples around which will ensure that the next set of regulations or Bills that we are going to come up with on issues of public private partnership remind us that once you go into this trap, it will be very expensive, costly and risky to even talk about revising or re-doing it.

 

With those few words, Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, I also just wanted to say a few things concerning this particular Bill and, at the same time, fully endorse the debate of the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central, Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, who has spoken with a lot of passion and wisdom on this subject, as my own.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chonya: His debate was different from the Saturnia Regina debate that he was trying to champion not too long ago which was less patriotic.

 

Madam Speaker, I rose in support of the proposed amendment to this Public Private Partnership (PPP) arrangement, but with an addition that, yes, as we are considering improving our PPP arrangements, let me echo what I said before on the Floor of the House that we should also be looking into the direction of supporting the PPPs with our own local investors. Most often, whenever I have this discussion about the PPPs it is always the Government to the Government or the Government with a big foreign business entity and never or very rarely with our own local people. Hon. Ngulube has talked about the National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA) which is alright, but beyond conglomerates like that, we could also go to individuals. I have in mind this local investor who has put up a very beautiful boarding house called Cross Roads somewhere in Ng’ombe. I am sure that investor has potential to put up similar hostels at the University of Zambia (UNZA). That would help to ease the accommodation problems there. What we have now are incomplete hostel blocks which have been standing for more than ten years. Those hostels were initiated during one of those football tournaments and cannot be finished up to now. therefore, if such people who are already into that kind of business are approached to finish and even build, be allocated land within UNZA, it means that we will solve that accommodation problem which comes up each time we have a new set of students.

 

Madam Speaker, that is all I wanted to add to the debate.

 

Ms Kapata: Only?

 

Ms Chonya: Yes, only. I also want to emphasise on the aspect of the Government partnering with our local people because that is also part of empowerment. That is what will help us to retain the finances and avoid capital flights because we are dealing with external organisations.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Madam Speaker, let me thank your Committee for the support of this Bill and the various stakeholders that were interviewed who were equally in support. Let me also thank the two debaters, Hon. Tutwa Ngulube and Hon. Chonya …

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: …for the points made which were well taken. We are considering that Public Private Partnership (PPP) Unit should become a department so that it is strengthened with some of those negotiating skills and that it can also work with contracting partners to ensure that we do not get raw deals in these PPPs. Yes, the case of the University of Zambia and the point on Kamwala as well. This is why we are moving away from the past way of dealing with the PPPs.

 

Madam Speaker, this is a very important tool for infrastructure development. It is why we are considering capacitating, streamlining and making it more efficient by seeing more PPPs coming into place. With that, I would like to say that the support of this august House has been overwhelming. I really appreciate.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

 

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

 

Committee on Friday, 6th July, 2018.

 

THIRD READING

 

The following Bill was read a third time and passed:

 

The Information and Communications Technology Association of Zambia Bill, 2018.

 

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MOTION

 

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE

 

The Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr S. Chungu): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

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The House adjourned at 1220 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 4th July, 2018.

 

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