Friday, 22nd June, 2018

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Friday, 22nd June, 2018


The House met at 0900 hours


[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]












Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I have an addendum to a ruling to render.


Hon. Members will recall that on Tuesday, 19th June, 2018, I rendered a ruling on a point of order raised by Hon. D. Siliya, MP, Minister of Information and Broadcasting against Mr C. Mweetwa, Member of Parliament for Choma Central Constituency, on Thursday, 22nd March, 2018.


In her point of order, Hon. D. Siliya, MP, stated, among other things:


“Is the hon. Member in order to say that this side of the House does not think and qualify the “not thinking” with untruths such as the NRDC being sold, without giving evidence?”


In my ruling, I informed the House that after perusing the verbatim record for Thursday, 22nd March, 2018, I found that the hon. Member for Choma Central had not, at any time, made reference to the Executive selling land belonging to the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC).


It has now come to my attention that the verbatim record I had recourse to, and on which my ruling was based, was, regrettably, inaccurate.


Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


Mr Speaker: This is because it had omitted the following critical words uttered by Mr C Mweetwa, MP:


“You sell NRDC, you sell this, you auction that.”


From the foregoing, it is clear that Mr C. Mweetwa, MP, did, in fact, make the statement alleged by Hon D. Siliya, MP, in her point of order. It is further evident that as he did not adduce any evidence to substantiate his allegation, he was in breach of the rules of the House and, therefore, out of order.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: I wish to sincerely apologise to the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting in particular and the House at large for ...


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: ... the embarrassment this very unfortunate incident has caused.


Hon. Members, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly has since been instructed to investigate this matter and the circumstances that led to the omission in the verbatim record and disciplinary action will be meted out to anyone who will be found culpable and responsible for this unfortunate incident.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: I now direct the Chief Hansard Editor to correct the verbatim record of both 22nd March and 19th June, 2018, respectively.


I thank you.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!






The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House an indication of the business it will consider next week.


Sir, on Tuesday, 26th June, 2018, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider the Committee Stage of the Information and Communication Technology Association of Zambia Bill, N.A.B No. 5 of 2018. Thereafter, the House will debate the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Parastatal Bodies on the management and operations of the Industrial Development Co-operation (IDC) in Zambia.


Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 27th June, 2018, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer. Then, the House will consider Private Members Motions, if there will be any. This will be followed by Presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will debate the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology.


Sir, on Thursday, 28th June, 2018, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Second Reading Stage of the following Bills:


         (i)         the Credit Reporting Bill, N.A.B No.6 of 2018; and


         (ii)        the Public Private Partnership (Amendment) Bill, N.A.B No.7 of 2018.


The House will, then, debate the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, National Guidance, Gender Matters and Governance on the State of the Nation Address by His Excellency the President.


Mr Speaker, on Friday, 29th June, 2018, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time. Thereafter, the House will consider Questions for Oral Answer. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will, then, debate the Motion to adopt the Main Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Human Rights, National Guidance, Gender Matters and Governance.


Sir, I thank you.






Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to ask a question.


Mr Speaker, I will start like this, it is wrong to be right when the Government is wrong. It is a famous quotation. Recently and topical today, is the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) Report.


Mr Kamboni: Hear, hear!


Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, the FIC Report has reported 425 cases to governance or investigative agencies, but instead of these investigative agencies taking action in terms of prosecution, they are falling over each other in competing to condemn and rubbish the FIC Report and even condemn the author of the report, who is the Director-General. My question is: Why are these agencies and the Government competing to rubbish this very important report from the centre that was created by this august House in an Act of Parliament. Is it because these agencies are incompetent to take up these matters or are they protecting the wrongs because of politically connected persons or is it simply a matter of a lack of political will on the part of the Government or is it …


Hon. Government Members: Ah!




Mr Lufuma: …because these …


Mr Speaker: Hon. Member −




Mr Lufuma: …institutions are paying allegiance to the appointing authorities and, therefore, are afraid of pointing out the wrongs …




Mr Lufuma: …and, therefore, are giving credence to the saying that …




Mr Lufuma: …it is wrong to be right when the Government is wrong?




Mr Lufuma: Honourable −


Mr Speaker: Her Honour the Vice-President.


Mr Lufuma: Her Honour the Vice-President, please, explain this to us.


Hon. Government Members: Question!


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Order!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should know that the Government has not rubbished the Report of the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC). Let me inform him that FIC is a Government entity.


Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: It is not a non-governmental organisation (NGO).


Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Its mandate entails that it collects intelligence information. After collecting that information, it passes it to the relevant Government investigative wings such as the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Anti-Money Laundering Unit and the police for further investigations. When those investigations produce evidence that can be taken to court, the cases are taken to court.


Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Therefore, it clearly shows that the management of the FIC and its board have a different agenda.


Mr Livune: Question!


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mwamba: Who are you questioning?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as I said, this is a Government agency and, surely, it should observe the procedures and processes …


Mr Kampyongo: Yes!


The Vice-President: …in how to handle matters of the Government according to the Act under which this agency was created.


Mr Lubinda: Yes!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, Government agencies, such as FIC, should not really dance to the gallery.


Mr Lubinda: No!


The Vice-President: It handles very important national matters.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Sensitive matters.


The Vice-President: This country has to deal with matters of anti-terrorism financing, money laundering, tax evasions and all these are very sensitive matters. For the investigative wing to report to diplomats before they report to the relevant investigative wings means there is something amiss there.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Sponsored by Lufuma.


The Vice-President: It clearly shows that this agency has crossed its boundaries.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Speaker, I would like to address myself to Her Honour the Vice-President and Leader of Government Business in the House. She went to Lukulu and talked about Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/Mumbeji Road and said there were three contractors already on site. Recently, the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, was in Lukulu and said he will have to come and sit with Cabinet Ministers over the same road. Which is which? Sitting with you, hon. Ministers or the contractors, which you, Madam Vice-President, said were on site as you promised the people of Lukulu. May we get the right status over this road.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Mitete would know that, yes, there was a contractor who was patching up the road, I think, in 2017. However, the two statements from the Vice-President and the President of the country speak to each other …


Mr Lubinda: Yes!


The Vice-President: …because this is a Government commitment that money has to be found to construct the road between the places he has mentioned. This matter has been discussed several times and I cannot promise further. However, the Government has a commitment to ensure that all the trunk roads are worked on when money is available. This promise has been fulfilled wherever money was available to work on specific roads.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Ms Mulyata (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, how is the Patriotic Front (PF) Government going to conserve and protect the eco systems that are supporting water resources?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am glad that there is one Member of Parliament who is interested in conserving the environment. The protection of water resources is an issue that the Government is addressing. That is why we are not encouraging individuals to take investments or squat on areas or land near the water bodies such as the river source. This is to protect them from polluting the lakes and rivers. The question that the hon. Member asked is very vague and it requires the hon. Member to visit the Ministry …




Mr Speaker: Order both on the left and right!


The Vice-President: …of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection. I think she will get satisfaction.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Mr Speaker, the people of the Western Province, especially the suppliers to the Cashew Infrastructure Development Project, have not been paid for their services such as providing seedlings and transporting them to the beneficiaries. They would like to know when they will be paid because some of them have not been paid for six months now.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Cashew Infrastructure Development Project in the Western Province is being supported through a loan from the African Development Bank (AfDB). Sometimes, the transactions take long to effect between the bank and the Government of Zambia. The hon. Member may wish to know that the Government was also concerned about this trend and that the monies will be paid to the suppliers of seedlings and other items to the cashew company by the second week of July, which is three weeks from today.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Kintu (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, my question is a rider to the one asked by Hon. Lufuma. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs has warned that the Government will not tolerate the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) indiscipline of sharing intelligence information with the general public without authorisation from competent authorities. The hon. Minister says that it is folly to expect that the intelligence information gathered by FIC be used in the courts of law. What is the position of the Government on this issue?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think I have explained that the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC) has to follow the procedures and processes of how it handles the information that comes under its operations. The answer has been given, Your Excellence, …




The Vice-President: …sorry, Mr Speaker. I think if the hon. Member was in the House, he would have noticed that I elaborated the way FIC should conduct its business. FIC is not supposed to release information to the public before it is given to the relevant Government agencies. Therefore, this is what I said and I want to repeat the same.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President why her pro-poor Government of the Patriotic Front (PF) has allowed the Chinese to sell second hand clothes on Lumumba Road at the expense of poor Zambians, despite the Government stating that foreign investors coming into the country should not engage in businesses that Zambians are able to do?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if the Chinese merchants are trading on our roads, that is illegal. I know it has not been allowed and, definitely, we will engage the councils to see why this has been allowed. The Chinese have their own designated trading places, but not on the streets and not to sell second hand clothes.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President is aware that Mufumbwe has sixteen wards and the distance from the first ward, which is Kashima, to the last one, which is Miluji, is about 460 km. When is the Government going to consider undertaking a delimitation exercise so that we manage the constituency well together?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to know that every ten years, the Delimitation Committee goes around the country to assess the size of the constituencies to determine whether any should be demarcated and whether there is a need to increase the number of polling stations. Therefore, when this exercise starts, Mufumbwe will definitely not be left out. For the hon. Member’s information, this year, the Delimitation Committee will start its operations and we look forward to seeing more areas that cannot be covered easily by the Members of Parliament delimited. Some constituencies will be delimited depending on the size of the population of the constituency. We believe that in the next few months, the Delimitation Committee will start its operations.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 20th June, 2018, in Choma, we witnessed a great moment of a handshake between President Lungu and Mr Hakainde and that handshake brought excitement in the hearts of many citizens, but before that, Your Honour, the Vice President …


Dr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mumbwa, give me a minute, I need to sort out a few house matters. For those who may not recall, I do not allow points of order during this session.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: It is now a firm practice. Hon. Members, can we proceed in silence. Those of you who have caucuses to conduct, the doors are open. You can go and caucus.


May the hon. Member for Mumbwa continue.


Mr Nanjuwa: Mr Speaker, I was saying that before that handshake which brought so much excitement, we also witnessed overzealousness by the police in the Southern Province as they tried to block President Hakainde from attending the funeral.




Mr Nanjuwa: Your Honour, the Vice President, it was such an embarrassing moment, but no statement has been issued by the Government. Is there any investigation being conducted? What led to that unfortunate circumstance where the police behaved in such a manner as to try to block innocent mourners from attending a funeral?


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Ms Kapata: Boza muleke.


Mr Speaker: Order!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that the police had intervened and blocked Mr Hakainde from attending the late Hon. Mukombwe’s funeral. For all I know, Mr Hakainde was already seated by the time President Lungu arrived …


Mr Lubinda: Yes!


The Vice-President: … at the funeral house.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: If he was blocked, how did he get there on time?




Mr Speaker: Order!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the handshake between Mr Hakainde and President Lungu should encourage us to exercise restraint and ensure that we work together as Zambians in trying to promote the development of our country. That was an indication that ─ if the two leaders can come together and smile at each other, what makes us here make slanderous and sensational statements that get out to the people to divide them even more? I beg political leaders, especially hon. Members of Parliament, …


Mr Lubinda: Yes!


The Vice-President: … to, please, be civil. Let us try to work together as a family. There is only one Zambia. There is nowhere else you can go to enjoy the rights you are enjoying here.


Dr Chibanda: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: The way some of you politicians are behaving leaves much to be desired. Therefore, I do not see the reason the Government should make a statement on an issue that we know nothing about.


I thank you, Sir.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, there was heavy rainfall in the 2017/2018 rainy season. A number of places and communities got flooded and this led to crops getting destroyed. Is the Government considering helping communities such as Chilubi and Kalabo where there were floods and crops were damaged?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that the Zambia Vulnerability and Needs Assessment Committee, which falls under the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and undertook a vulnerability and needs assessment in fifty-eight districts in nine provinces. It was done in order to ascertain the impact of hazards such as dry spells, floods, insect infestations such as the army worm and stalk borer. This will help to determine what interventions in terms of relief the Government should put in place. The in-depth assessment report will be ready probably towards the end of June. When the report is ready, the outcomes will be made available to the House.


I thank you, Sir.


Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, Zambia is a very peaceful country and admired in Africa and globally. Of late, there have been talks about national dialogue in the country and various players have expressed their view on who should lead this process. What is the Government’s position on who should lead the National Dialogue Process? Is it the Zambia Centre for Interparty Dialogue (ZCID) or shall we see a one on one interaction like we saw with President Trump and Kim Jong-un?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, dialogue is a sort of mechanism where differing groups or people who have differences or conflicts sit down to irons out those differences or sometimes, even resolve them. The Government is encouraging this process because it knows that through dialogue, much can be accomplished. Even things we perceive to divide us can be resolved through dialogue. Therefore, the ZCID has been working and consulting a number of stakeholders, including churches, civil society, the private sector and others. Of late, the centre engaged the Secretaries-General of Political Parties. I understand that it was agreed at the meeting that the Church should lead the dialogue process. We trust and hope that the process will start as soon as possible.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, I have come to this august House, several times and several years, demanding assistance from the Office of the Vice-President to attend to blown off roofs and bridges in the constituency and have been told there is no money and that they would be attended to when money is available.


Mr Speaker, during the campaign for a ward councillor in Mundanyama in Mwinilunga, I saw iron sheets and other materials being distributed by the Office of District Commissioner (DC). We have also seen other officials buying councillors to induce by-elections.


Hon. Government Member: Question!


Mr Muchima: Your Honour, how is the money found for such activities, yet there is no money to buy iron sheets for blown off roofs for schools where the young generation and the future leaders of tomorrow are?


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are quite a number of schools with blown off roofs throughout the country. The DMMU has compiled a list of all such schools so that we can start addressing the issue that the hon. Member of Parliament for Ikeleng’i has raised.


Sir, we do not know about the issue of the Patriotic Front (PF) buying councillors to induce by-elections.


Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!




Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




Mr Speaker: Order! Let us have some order!




The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am a Member of the Central Committee (MCC) of the Patriotic Front (PF) …


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: And Vice-President!


The Vice-President: … and the Vice-President of the Patriotic Front (PF).


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: I do not remember at any time when money was released to buy councillors.


Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Are they so cheap that they are for sale?


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, what is happening is that many Zambians, including councillors, have realised that there is nothing they can stay for in the United Party for National Development (UPND).


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




Mr Lufuma: Question!


Mr Lubinda: Even Lufuma! Hear, hear!




Mr Speaker: Order! Let us have some order in the House!




The Vice-President: That is why …




Mr Speaker: Order!


The Vice-President: … they are flocking to the PF in large numbers.


Hon. Opposition Members: Mmm!


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




Mr Lubinda: Including Muchima!






The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not want to spill the beans …




Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: … because this may embarrass …




Mr Speaker: Order!


Ms Siliya: The signal!


The Vice-President: … some of our colleagues here.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Some of the Members of Parliament in the UPND want to cross over.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Muchima!




Mr Lubinda: Lufuma!




Mr Speaker: Order!




Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Balapwa!


Mr Speaker: Let us have some order!




Ms Mulenga: Give us a signal, bamayo!


Mr Speaker: Order! Order! Order!


The Vice-President: Therefore, Mr Speaker, my advice to political parties is that, we work with our people in the communities. Let us not alienate them.


Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: I can assure hon. Members of Parliament that if they thought they were very strong in their constituencies, they have to go back and look at what is going on.


Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: The ground is shifting.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!






Mr Lubinda: Ema VP aya!




Mr Lubinda: A good example is Chilanga!




Mr Speaker: Order!




Mr Speaker: Order! Let Her Honour the Vice-President complete her statement.




Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Two councillors in Chilanga have defected.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, before, it was not possible for the PF to grab Chilanga from the United Party for National Development (UPND).


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: It was not possible two years or a year ago for the PF to win twelve councillorships out of sixteen …


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: … even in strongly held UPND wards. Therefore, it goes to show …


Mr Kampyongo: Makani yabija!


Ms Chalikosa: Yabija makani!


The Vice-President: … that no money ….




Mr Speaker: Order! Order!


The Vice-President: … changed hands to buy people. They come because they are attracted to the PF.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: I thank you, Sir.


Mr Chali (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, two years ago, we were privileged to have been visited by Her Honour the Vice-President in Chingola. While there, she issued letters of offer to some ex-miners. Surveyors were on site and the demarcations started since the land is available. However, I would like to find out what the delay has been because it is now two years and this exercise has not been completed. Maybe, she can give an indication when this is going to be completed.


Hon. Government Member: Ka signal, mama!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, indeed, I was in Chingola to present letters of offer to the former miners and we will continue to do so with the remaining miners who did not get these letters last year. Therefore, I can promise the hon. Member of Parliament for Nchanga that the process for the title deeds is on-going. As soon as all the title deeds are processed for the numbers that we presented letters of offer to, they will be given to the people. I hope very soon.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!


Ms Chonya (Kafue): Mr Speaker, up to today, there are some former workers of the defunct Kafue Textiles of Zambia who have not received their terminal benefits after they were declared redundant or retrenched at the onset of privatisation in 1990. As late as this week, these people were still engaging Hon. Lubinda and I who are liaising with her there. We have been to his office to seek some guidance over the matter. I just wanted to hear what hope she can give to these people as to whether they will receive their dues for which they toiled for so many years. In spite of toiling for so many years, they walked away with nothing.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue should know that it is not only Kafue Textiles of Zambia, but also a number of other parastatal companies were privatised in 1991 by the Government that was there that time. Unfortunately, the agencies that were given to privatise these companies had not saved the money to pay the retirees. Now, this is a debt that has followed the Government up to today.


Mr Lubinda: Yes!


The Vice-President: Since 1991, the Government has paid some retirees. I understand the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue visited the Ministry of Justice and they are in consultation at the moment. I would request the hon. Member to go back to the ministry and find out how far the case of the Kafue Textiles of Zambia retirees has gone.


Thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Lubinda: She actually promised to come.


Mr Mwene (Mangango): Mr Speaker, the District Commissioner’s Office in Kaoma District has continued to intimidate and threaten civil servants with transfers because they have refused the infiltration of party caderism in the Civil Service. I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President whether the DCs have powers to threaten and intimidate the civil servants who do not allow party caderism in the Civil Service.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the DC in Kaoma is a civil servant. He does not belong to the Patriotic Front (PF) Party at all.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Sir, that is a fact. So, if the relationship between the hon. Member of Parliament for Mangango and the DC has soured, I suppose that is a personal issue between the two of them …


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: … except that the DC is a Government public servant, who has to work with hon. Members of Parliament and the communities. If the DC is harassing the civil servants, we would like to get a report on that issue so that the Government can look into it.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Chikote (Luampa): You Honour the Vice-President, this is a source of concern for the people of the Western Province. Even if Her Honour the Vice-President is showing ignorance, it is evident that her Government is, indeed, using the Office of the District Commissioner to entice our councillors with money and other things. When is her Government going to consider rehabilitating the stretch from TBZ to Katunda, which is our major road in the Western Province?


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Order!


Let me give guidance to the hon. Member that he is only entitled to ask one question at any given time, but you are raising two subjects. Can you ask a single question?


Mr Chikote: Mr Speaker, I am just trying to substantiate my question that there is money which is being used to entice these councillors. Why can it not be used to maintain or rehabilitate the stretch from TBZ to Katunda, which is our major road in the Western Province?


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not know how else …


Mr Speaker: Order on my right!


The Vice-President: … I will respond to this question because we are not buying any councillors.




The Vice-President: Perhaps, the United Party for National Development (UPND) is the one that is bringing councillors for sale.




Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Stop selling councillors!


Mr Speaker: Order! Order on my right!




The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I understand that because of the Grade 12 qualification, which was needed at the time of elections for councillors, many young people were recruited by the UPND to stand on their ticket. The young people have since joined politics and are getting a salary or an allowance of K3,000 per month, and they have realised that there is no future in that party.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Yes, even Mweetwa!


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if I had to bring the list of the number of councillors who have applied to join the PF to the House, you would discover that it is long. We have told them they cannot come en mass like that …


Hon. Government Members: Yes!


The Vice-President: … because it will mean conducting by-elections every month until 2021.


Mr Lubinda: Even in Choma!


The Vice-president: Therefore, I want to repeat that it has nothing to do with buying councillors. Hon. Members should go back to their councillors and tell them that the PF has no money to buy them.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mumba (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, earlier this week, His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, directed the hon. Minister of Finance to come up with a debt strategy programme. I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President whether she is able to shed more light in terms of the areas of austerity, which will be considered. Just this morning, I noticed that hon. Ministers’ personal to holder vehicles and fuel allowance have been scrapped.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, His Excellency the President has directed the hon. Minister of Finance to bring a paper to Cabinet so that Cabinet can go through all the austerity measures that he has suggested and, then, Parliament will be informed. From what the hon. Member has picked from the newspapers, I wish to further state that His Excellency the President has directed that the country should not contract new loans. He has further said the loans, which are in the pipeline, should be reviewed so that we do not add new debts to the already existing debts because it is important for this country to maintain debt sustainability.


Mr Speaker, there are a number of measures that His Excellency the President has directed this Government to take, including cutting down on travels by public servants and hon. Ministers and curtailing workshops. These are home-grown remedies that the President has prescribed to us. I know that the pill will not be pleasant for most of the public servants, but this is necessary so that the country can start seeing its economy grow again.


I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Mr Speaker, with the creation of the new district, Shibuyunji, land in that area has finished. What we have noticed is that Kawena Forest which was degazetted for the people of Shibuyunji or Mwembezhi has been invaded by army officers and many senior officers from Lusaka. I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President whether her Government is going to come to our rescue because the local people cannot fight the battle alone.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, gazetted forests belong to the State. When they are degazetted, that is when people apply to acquire some plots in the forest areas. However, the degazetting of the forest area the hon. Member for Mwembezhi is talking about should be known to the local people, so that they too can apply in order for them to access land in the forest reserve.


I thank you, Sir. 


Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear! 








The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to update the House and the nation at large on the recruitment and placement of health workers on the Government payroll. For us in the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, under the stewardship of His Excellency the President of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, universal health coverage is a must-attain target. In doing so, we are building resilient health systems with human resource for health as a fundamental pillar, amongst others.


Mr Speaker, inadequate numbers of health workers threatens this aspiration for universal health coverage. The cholera outbreak of 2017/2018 placed a further strain on human resource for health. In addressing the deficit of human resource in the health sector, both for the escalated response to the cholera outbreak and for primary health care services, the Government commenced the recruitment of health workers in December, 2017.


Mr Speaker, various hospitals and district administrations used various local conditions of service to look after these health workers before they were placed on the payroll. I want to take this opportunity to thank the health workers for serving diligently the people of Zambia during the cholera outbreak in various parts of Zambia while they were not on the payroll. I wish to update the House and nation that the Government has provided Treasury authority to place …


Mr Speaker: Let us have silence on both the left and right side of the House.


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the Government has now provided resources to place all the health workers that were recruited in December, 2017 and January, 2018, on the payroll. All the health workers that were recruited will now be on the payroll effective June, 2018. All the arrears have been uploaded on the payroll.


Mr Speaker, I conclude by reiterating the Government’s appreciation to the health workers for the patience they exhibited in serving Zambians diligently during the cholera outbreak. I also wish to appreciate the Health workers serving in parts of the country where there is a human resource deficit.


Mr Speaker, I thank you.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Health.


Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for sorting out that problem. However, out of the number of the medical personnel that has now been put on the payroll, what was the actual number of medical doctors because I am aware that some of them should have left owing to the fact that they were not getting their salaries.


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, there were 220 medical doctors that were recruited between December, 2017 and January, 2018.


Mr Speaker, I thank you.


Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Mr Speaker, now that these health workers will be paid, what is the status quo regarding the medical doctors who are on contract? Some of them have had their contracts renewed for almost three times, but they have not been paid their gratuities. When will their gratuities be paid?


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, there are a number of health workers, doctors inclusive, who have been working under contract due to various reasons. Some contracts have expired and have been renewed and the payment of gratuities will be informed by resource availability.


Mr Speaker, I thank you.


Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, my question is directed specifically at the hon. Minister’s Office. The Ministry of Health recruited workers for various health institutions and one of them is in my constituency. Surprisingly, the Classified Daily Employees (CDEs) that have been sent to my constituency are from Lusaka. I would like to know the criteria behind sending the CDEs from Lusaka to Luwingu, yet Luwingu has many people who can be employed as CDEs.


Mr Speaker: I am having difficulties seeing the connection between that question and the hon. Minister’s statement.


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I will give a bonus answer that Classified Daily Employees (CDEs) are employed locally. If there is a complaint in that regard, I would appreciate the hon. Member of Parliament forwarding such a complaint to my office. We will investigate and make sure that we rectify the situation.


Mr Speaker, I thank you.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, this is time for questions to clarify the statement. If there is nothing to clarify, we will move on. It is not time for us to introduce new subjects because the hon. Minister of Health is standing there.


Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Mr Speaker, my question is a rider to the question by the hon. Member for Mufulira. I am reliably informed that the new doctors at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) were only being provided with food. Have all these doctors at UTH been recruited and placed on the payroll?


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, all health workers that were recruited have been put on the payroll, that is, those at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and countrywide.


Mr Speaker, I thank you.


Mr C. M. Zulu (Luangeni): Sir, it is good that finally, these people are on the payroll. However, one big problem that we have in the Civil Service is the issue of positions that have been frozen and these positions are in thousands. What is the ministry doing to deal with the frozen positions because some of them are decision-making positions? If no one is there to make a decision, you will find that the implementation of projects will be very difficult or almost impossible.


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, positions are frozen if they are not filled in and resources are required for other positions. If there are people that are available for these positions and they get frozen, it points to poor human resource management.


Mr Speaker, we are working very closely with the Civil Service Commission, Public Service Management Division (PSMD) and Ministry of Finance to ensure that there is adequate or appropriate management of human resource to avoid freezing of positions. For those that have been frozen in the past, when resources are available, they are unfrozen and people are placed on the payroll. Going forward, however, appropriate management of human resource will not see any positions frozen.


Mr Speaker, I thank you.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to advise that we are carrying on a lot of business. I think we need to move with dispatch. This is a fairly straightforward statement. Therefore, I do not think we should dwell too long on it. I will stop at the hon. Member for Sesheke.


Mr Kundoti (Luena): Mr Speaker, it is good to hear that the Government has been able to put on the payroll doctors and other medical staff that were not there before. However, looking at the exodus of doctors and medical professionals like nurses who leave this country due to poor conditions of service, what is the ministry doing to keep them so that we do not find ourselves in a situation like the one we were in before?


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I want to place on record that the conditions of service for medical doctors in Zambia are a benchmark for the region. We pay competitively and we have attracted back a number of doctors from the region and abroad to come and work with us here. Therefore, let it be known that we are competitive and have already shown political will to improve conditions of service for all workers, including medical doctors. Therefore, in addressing the human resource for health as part of health system strengthening, we are looking at creating a self-motivated team of health workers that is well-looked after, including medical doctors. I want to correct the impression that the exodus of health workers today is associated with poor conditions of service. There is no exodus of health workers. As a matter of fact, we are seeing health workers coming back to the country.


I thank you, Sir.


Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, both my questions were overridden by Hon. Chibanda and Hon. Mwashingwele. 


Mr Kufakwandi: (Sesheke Central): Thank you, Mr Speaker, ...


Mr Speaker: I can see you. You are very near here.


Mr Kufakwandi: ... I did not get the reasons it took so much time to put these people on the payroll. Does it have something to do with our inability to implement the Budget that we approve because allocations were there?


Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, like I have always said, health risks derail our economic development programmes. The cholera outbreak is one such health risk. It was not anticipated, therefore, that mass recruitment was part of the escalated response to the cholera outbreak. If we were just dealing with the planned numbers, we would not have taken this protracted period to place people on the payroll.  We had to realign the budget in terms of variations to ensure that we accommodated more health workers to participate in the escalated response and thereafter, continue with them on the payroll. Therefore, it was not because of inadequate resources or inability to execute the Budget, but unforeseen circumstances such as the cholera outbreak.


I thank you, Sir.








282. Mr A. C. Mumba (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Finance:


  1. what percentage of the bankable population in Zambia is utilising banking services;


  1. why commercial banks have introduced exorbitant over-the-counter withdrawal charges even for amounts above the limits dispensed by the Automated Teller Machines (ATMs);


  1. whether the Government is aware that the exorbitant charges are discouraging the utilisation of banking services, especially by the unbanked population and small-scale entrepreneurs;


  1. if so, what measures are being taken to address the issue of exorbitant bank charges; and


  1. why commercial banks use tiny prints on their tariff guides which are extremely difficult for customers to read.


The Minister of Finance (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Mr Speaker, the last Finscope Study of 2015, indicated that an estimated 24.8 per cent of the bankable population is utilising banking services.  When we include the non-bank financial institutions and mobile platforms, whose significant portion is attributable to payment service providers, this figure goes up to 59.7 per cent, roughly 60 per cent.


Sir, the Government, through the Bank of Zambia (BoZ), is aware of the high over-the-counter charges that are being charged on withdrawals for amounts above the limits dispensed by the ATMs. In this regard, the bank has conducted a comprehensive review of all bank charges to determine reasonableness and fairness of the charges. Once finalised, the bank will issue a relevant instrument which will regulate charges by commercial banks.


Mr Speaker, the Government acknowledges the adverse impact of exorbitant bank charges on the utilisation of and access to banking services by the unbanked population. As a remedial measure, the Government has developed a national financial inclusion strategy which, amongst other objectives, seeks to broaden access to quality and affordable financial services.


Mr Speaker, the Government, through BoZ, has taken the following measures to address the high bank charges:


  1. continuous engagement with commercial banks through the Bank Governor’s monthly meetings with Chief Executive Officers (CEOs) of commercial banks;


  1. quarterly publication of all bank charges and interest rates to create awareness amongst the banking public on the prevailing charges and interest rates, and create peer pressure amongst commercial banks and non-bank financial institutions;


  1. mandatory requirements by commercial banks to disclose their full cost of credit including interest rates and other associated charges through the Key Fact Statement given to customers at the time of contracting loans;


  1. promotion of digital financial services that offer the opportunity to deliver financial services at a lower cost; and


  1. constant monitoring of the bank charges through both onsite and offsite monitoring and engaging bank management on such matters as the need for affordable services.


Mr Speaker, the Government shares the concern regarding tiny prints which could pose difficulties for customers to read. In this regard, the BoZ is in the process of developing a framework for market conduct to regulate aspects such as this. In addition, the Government has been conducting financial education awareness campaigns to enlighten the general public on such matters.


I thank you, Sir.


Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Mr Speaker, the Government has engaged these banks for a long time, regarding the issue of them reducing the bank charges. Many times, the Government has given assurances about this. When is the Government going to end the engagement with the banks and take actual measures? Is the Ministry of Finance in a position to stop the banks and give them a directive to reduce their bank charges?


Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, I share the hon. Member’s concern. It is about time we took action regarding exorbitant bank charges. The hon. Member will see action being taken in the very near future. We have engaged with BoZ and we are going to take action. We needed to ensure that the regulation is in place to allow us to do that and that is exactly what we are doing.


I thank you, Sir.








Mr Kamondo (Mufumbwe): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Government Assurances, for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 14th June, 2018.


Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?


Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.


Mr Kamondo: Mr Speaker, in performing its duties, your Committee was guided by the terms of reference as set out in the Standing Orders. During this Session, your Committee considered forty-six new assurances and eighty outstanding assurances.


Mr Speaker, your Committee’s observations and recommendations on the various assurances were probed and documented in your Committee’s report. I will, therefore, only highlight a few of the assurances which were a mere sample of the bigger picture relating to assurances made on the Floor of this august House.


Sir, allow me to start by stating that generally, your Committee observes, with disappointment, that the assurances made on the Floor of the House are not backed by financial provisions. As a result, most of the projects have stalled due to financial constraints. By way of example, allow me to refer to some specific assurances made on the Floor of the House. On Friday, 16th June, 2017, the hon. Minister of General Education made an assurance on the Floor of the House that the repair of the roof which was blown off at Mateo Kakumbi Primary School was expected to commence in the third quarter of 2017. The hon. Minister further stated that the estimated cost of repairing the roof was K72,717 and that the delay in repairing the roof was basically due to a lack of funds.


Mr Speaker, during its interactions with the stakeholders, your Committee learnt that the status quo at Mateo Kakumbi School in Chitambo Parliamentary Constituency had remained unchanged due to financial constraints. In May, 2018, your Committee undertook a site visit to Mateo Kakumbi Primary School in Chitambo District and learnt with sadness that the roof was blown off in 2011. The matter was reported to the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) who, in turn, reported the matter to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). The DMMU inspected the school in 2013, and that was the last time the school was visited by officials from the Central Government.


Hon. UPND Member: Oh no!


Mr Kamondo: Mr Speaker, your Committee was disappointed and saddened to find that the 1x2 classroom block had not been re-roofed and was now in a more deplorable state. Your Committee fears for the safety of both the learners and the teachers because if the classroom block is renovated or re-roofed in its current state, it can collapse at any time. Apart from the deplorable state of the classroom block, your Committee observed that the school has inadequate classrooms. It also does not have classrooms for pre-school learners. This is coupled with inadequate staff accommodation.


Mr Speaker, your Committee, therefore, recommends that the current structure, which is in a deplorable state and not fit for human habitation, be demolished and a new block built. Your Committee is also displeased to note that the amount of money required to repair the blown off roof is insignificant. In the circumstances, there is no justification for the state of the school. Therefore, it is unacceptable to allow this level of dilapidation and neglect of the school infrastructure for such a long time.


Sir, your Committee, therefore, strongly urges the Government to ensure that funds are urgently released to construct another 1x2 classroom block without further delay as the existing one is not fit for human habitation and certainly not a suitable environment for learning. Furthermore, your Committee urges the Government to prioritise this project as a matter of urgency in order to encourage and give a sense of safety to the learners.


Mr Speaker, allow me to now draw the attention of the House to another assurance that your Committee dealt with under the Ministry of General Education. On 3rd March, 2017, the hon. Minister of General Education made an assurance that the Government had plans to refurbish the laboratory at Mufumbwe Day Secondary School in Mufumbwe District, to replace the one that was gutted by fire three years ago. He stated that plans to carry out the refurbishment were expected to be implemented in 2017.


Sir, your Committee notes with displeasure that despite the assurance to refurbish the laboratory at Mufumbwe Day Secondary School in 2017, nothing has been done about it to date and this is due to financial constraints. This has negatively affected both teachers and learners as subjects which are supposed to be undertaken in a laboratory are being undertaken in classrooms, thus compromising the quality of education. Your Committee, therefore, strongly urges the Government to immediately secure funds for the refurbishment of the laboratory so as not to continue disadvantaging the learners.


Mr Speaker, notwithstanding the above matters, allow me to comment on an assurance made by the hon. Minister of Health on 14th March, 2017. The assurance was that the construction of Chinsali General Hospital was expected to commence by April, 2017. This was to be finalised based on the drawings by the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development. Your Committee learnt that the construction of Chinsali General Hospital commenced in June, 2017. The contractor engaged to construct the hospital was China National Complete Engineering Corporation and the contract was being executed under the Chinese Government support loan with a project sum of US $28,377,666.02.


Sir, the House will be interested to know that the works at Chinsali General Hospital were estimated to be at 30 per cent complete as of December, 2017. The project is expected to be completed in 2020. In May, 2018, your Committee undertook a spot check on the construction of Chinsali General Hospital and noted that the works were progressing well. The project was estimated to be approximately 40 per cent complete as of May, 2018.


Mr Speaker, your Committee commends the Government on the progress that has been recorded so far in the construction of Chinsali General Hospital. Your Committee is optimistic that the project will be completed within the planned time frame as the funds for the entire project have already been secured.


Sir, the Chinsali Hospital Project is a great example of the manner in which the Executive ought to handle assurances made on the Floor of the House. I will repeat myself and say the Chinsali Hospital Project is a great example of the manner in which the Executive ought to handle assurances made on the Floor of the House.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kamondo: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, there is a whole litany of unfulfilled assurances elucidated in your Committee’s report. Your Committee finds it unacceptable that the Government does not appear to take assurances made on the Floor of the House seriously, a fact which renders the assurances purely academic. Your Committee insists that the Government should only make assurances to the House where it has capacity to fully implement them. Making assurances which are not implementable is a sign of total disregard for the House. In fact, it amounts to misleading the House and that cannot be tolerated and accepted at all.


Sir, in conclusion, I wish, on behalf of the hon. Members of your Committee, to thank you for according us the opportunity to serve on this Committee. Further, I wish to take this opportunity to thank all the hon. Members of your Committee for the commitment they exhibited towards the work of your Committee. I also wish to thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for their unwavering support to your Committee during its deliberations in this Session. Last, but not least, I wish to pay tribute to all the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) and their officers who made both oral and written submissions to your Committee during its deliberations.


Mr Speaker, I beg to move.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?


Mr Ndalamei: Now, Mr Speaker.


Sir, I wish to thank you for affording me the opportunity to second this important Motion before this august House. Allow me to also thank the mover of the Motion and Chairperson of your Committee, Hon. Elliot Kamondo, for the able manner in which he presided over your Committee’s deliberations and highlighted the pertinent issues raised in your Committee’s report.


Mr Speaker, considering that hon. Members are privy to what is contained in your report, I will restrict my comments to two issues.


On Friday, 22nd February, 2013, the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development assured the House that the Government, through the Department of Water Affairs, had plans to rehabilitate three dams in Mapatizya Constituency after the rainy season. The Executive, in its update to your Committee, indicated that the procurement process of the proposed Tambana dam construction was completed by the Provincial Procurement Committee. However, no contract was awarded due to the non-availability of funds from the Treasury to finance the construction.


Mr Speaker, on Siambelele and Chuundwe proposed dam sites, the Executive informed your Committee that the department had included the dam sites on the list of sites where feasibility studies could be constructed once finances were sourced as this was an ongoing process.


Mr Speaker, your Committee is concerned over the delay and the inordinately long time it has taken for the Government to commence the construction of the three dams in Mapatizya Constituency. Your Committee seriously implores the Government to expeditiously source the necessary finances for the construction of the three dams in Mapatizya.


Sir, let me draw your attention to an assurance made on the Floor of the House on Wednesday, 25th February, 2015. The hon. Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health assured the House that the Ministry of Health intended to construct staff houses for health personnel in Sikongo in 2015, under its infrastructure operational plan.


Mr Speaker, your Committee, during its deliberations with the stakeholders, learnt that the Government was still committed to ensuring that health workers were retained in the rural areas through provision of staff housing. In this regard, a staff house was being completed at Mutala Health Centre whilst one was under construction and had reached window level at Sikongo Health Centre.


Sir, your Committees is, however, concerned with the increasing number of assurances being made on the Floor of the House without commensurate commitment to commence or complete the works within the planned time. The assurances being pronounced on the Floor of the House and the non-availability of funds to implement the projects has become the order of the day, which is not healthy for the country.


Mr Speaker, in this vein, your Committee strongly urges the Government to adhere to its own operational plans. Further, your Committee urges the Government to expedite the construction of staff houses at the two health facilities as it has taken too long to complete and prioritise the assurances made on the Floor of the House.


Sir, as I conclude, let me state that your Committee is deeply indebted to you for affording it an opportunity to scrutinise Government assurances made on the Floor of the House. Your Committee is further indebted to the Permanent Secretaries from the various ministries who appeared before it and tendered both oral and written submissions.


Mr Speaker, last but not least, my gratitude also goes to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the invaluable support they rendered to your Committee during its deliberations.


Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I beg to second.


I thank you, Sir.


Dr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to support the Committee’s report and recommendations.


Sir, let me, from the outset, state that I am extremely disappointed that year in, year out, we have been lamenting the failure by the Executive to stick to their assurances. I was at one time Chairperson of this Committee in the Tenth National Assembly and it is surprising that no change has been made in terms of Government the fulfilling the promises that they make on the Floor of the House. This means that hon. Ministers do not take the work of Parliament seriously.


Why should hon. Ministers come to the House and promise something that they know they will not fulfil? It is embarrassing that we have had no Deputy Ministers for two years, yet the Committee is quoting assurance which was made by the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development. This means that this assurance should have been made around 2014. It should not be business as usual. We must take the work of Parliament very seriously.


Mr Speaker, maybe, it calls for Parliament to come up with Standing Orders that are going to be very strict in terms of taking on these hon. Ministers on their assurances, otherwise it will be business as usual and people will not care what pronouncements they make. Surely, why should a blown-off roof of a 1x3 classroom block take three years to repair? It is embarrassing.


People in Government always stand up to talk about the projects that they are doing, yet they are failing to do small things like repairing a roof at a school. I think the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development needs to up his game and not always give us rhetoric of the things the Government’s perceived to be doing when, in fact the actual projects that are supposed to be undertaken are not being implemented.


Mr Speaker, if there is no roof on a structure, the concrete structure starts sucking water which makes it weaker. Why should it take three or four rainy seasons before a simple roof can be put on a structure, yet the Executive comes here and boasts about constructing roads and changing the country? Some people go outside saying the chakolwa has transformed the country when they cannot even put a roof ...


Mr Speaker: What did you say, hon. Member for Roan? I missed it.




Dr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I said some people go out to rallies and say a chakolwa, which means a drunkard, has transformed the country when we are ...


Dr Chibanda: Question!


Mr Speaker: Who are you referring to?


Dr Kambwili: Some unknown person, Mr Speaker.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: How do you refer to an unknown person when you are debating?


Dr Kambwili: I am just trying to ...


Mr Speaker: Can you withdraw that since you do not even know this person.


Mr Syakalima: Just say you know him.




Dr Kambwili: Yaa! It is difficult to withdraw it, Mr Speaker.




Mr Speaker: Then who are you referring to.


Dr Kambwili: There is one person who said ...


Mr Speaker: No, just withdraw it.


Dr Kambwili: Anyway, I withdraw the statement under difficult circumstances.


Mr Speaker: Continue.


Dr Kambwili: Sir, what I am trying to say is that we must take the work of Parliament and the work of the Government very seriously. We should not come to Parliament year in, year out to lament ...


Mr Speaker: Order!


Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.




Dr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was lamenting the failure by the Government to take Government Assurances made on the Floor of the House seriously. Some of the things that this Government is failing to fulfil are straightforward. For instance, there was an assurance on the Floor of the House when Baluba Mine was closed in Luanshya that when the mine re-opened, the 1,600 employees that were put on recess would be re-employed. Today, the mine has re-opened; they are employing other people who were not working for the mine before the mine was closed. When you question, you are told, no, the former miners actually opted to be separated, so, the mine has the right to start looking for other people. Look at Mopani Copper Mines, it retrenched and paid separation packages to the miners. When the mine re-opened, they went and employed the same people that they had separated. Therefore, hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, what is the problem with Luanshya?


Why should you allow these investors to discard our people that have worked for this mine for so many years by bringing in people from outside Luanshya, when there was an assurance on the Floor of the House from both Her Honour the Vice-President and then hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, Hon. Christopher Yaluma.


Madam Speaker, the people are now saying politicians are liars because we do not seem to be taking action on the words that we pronounce on the Floor of this august House. It is quite unfortunate. I have seen Her Honour the Vice-President trying to indicate that no, she never said that. I mean, we had a meeting in her office and I can pull out the verbatim …


Ms Chalikosa: No! Do not bring Her Honour into your debate.


Dr Kambwili: … for these pronouncements. All I am trying to say is that let us fulfil what we promise the people because they will judge us from what we say and the action taken. In any case, action speaks louder than words. You are better off taking action without making a pronouncement than making pronouncements in this august House, which the people of Zambia regard with highest esteem, then failing to fulfil them. It should not be business as usual. Therefore, I urge the Government to make sure that when it makes assurances, it fulfils them. When it is not sure- we all know that there is no money at the moment, but one wonders why people continue, when they are told we need a road, to say no, we will construct that road when, in actual fact, they know that the Government has no money. Let us make pronouncements that we are sure of we will fulfil otherwise; we will be wasting the Committee’s time. Year in, year out, the Committee comes here and laments. In the Action-Taken Report, there are same lamentations, but no action is taken.


Madam Speaker, surely, like I said earlier, we are talking about an assurance made by a Deputy Minister, yet for the last two years, we have had no Deputy Ministers. That calls for all of us as leaders to have some shame. I think we must be very serious in the way we handle the affairs of this country. Governance is all about the general citizenry. When we make these promises, we are not making them to hon. Members of Parliament who ask questions here. We are actually promising the people whom these hon. Members represent. Usually, what happens is that when we come here, we communicate, we are given an assurance, then we also go back to the people and tell them, “I think you heard from Parliament, the hon. Minister promised that this will be done.” Then, the people will be saying, “hon. Member of Parliament, you misled us and lied to us. That project has not been undertaken. It makes all of us to be misled or tell the people untruths.


Madam Speaker, I appeal to my dear colleagues on the right hand side of the House, who are looking after the resources of this country, to, for once, make sure that we fulfil the assurances that we make on the Floor of the House. Hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, I will not stop talking about the Luanshya mine until my 1,600 employees are back at Baluba.


With these few words, I support the report and thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Speaker, I will be speaking to your report, page by page …




Mr Mutelo: …concerning Mitete as it is put in this report.


Madam Speaker, page 56 of your report is talking about the 650 health posts. There is a summary of progress on these health posts, province by province. For the Western Province, the incomplete health posts are four. Out of the four, three are in Mitete. These are Lupui, Washishi and Chinonwe. They have been incomplete since the assurance was made on the Floor of this House. That is on page 56.


Madam Speaker, page 83 of your report states:


“On 10th March, 2016, the Deputy Minister of Works and Supply made the following assurance:


‘Mr Speaker, the Government is constructing forty-two houses and other buildings in Mitete District. The categories of the housing units are broken down as follows:


High-cost                     Medium-cost               Low-cost

   2                                  12                                28’”


Madam Speaker, in your Committee’s report, there is the following response by the Executive:


“In its update to your Committee, the Executive indicated that the twenty-two low cost houses being constructed had reached an advanced stage with progress estimated at 90 per cent (roofed and plastered).”


Madam Speaker, that was in 2016, but to date, those low cost houses are still at 90 per cent completion. There is a declaration that projects which are above 80 per cent completion will get the Government funding. I hope we will see funding directed to Mitete. Otherwise, those housing units are still at the same stage, as stated by the Deputy Minister then, who is not even in this august House now.


Madam Speaker, on page 87 of your report, it states,


“17/16 – Post Office in Mitete


On 16th February, 2016, the Deputy Minister of Transport and Communication made the following assurance on the Floor of the House:


 ‘Mr Speaker, the construction of the post office and associated external works in Mitete will be completed by the end of March, 2017, and the contractor undertaking the construction of the post office is Elder Main Business Solutions.


Mr Speaker, the completion period of the construction of the post office is nineteen months, running from October, 2015, to the end of March, 2017. The contractor has since drilled a borehole and the foundation has been excavated.’”


Madam Speaker, your report further states:


“Response by the Executive


In its update to your Committee, the Government indicated that the contract for the construction of the post office in Mitete was terminated in February, 2016, due to non-performance by the contractor.”


Madam Speaker, to date, not even the slab has been laid. If you went there, you would find a bush. I think this Government needs to put more effort to fulfil assurances which are made on the Floor of this House. At least, we are told that the construction of low cost housing units is at 90 per cent completion. This is the site where the post office in Mitete is supposed to be built, but there is nothing; it is all bush. It is still the way God created it.




Mr Mutelo: This means that it is actually at zero per cent completion. Since the Government is now saying that projects which are above 80 per cent completion are the ones that will be completed first. The project for the post office is still at 0.01 per cent. When will this post office which is at 0.01 per cent see the light of day, when all those projects which are at 80 per cent, 50 per cent and 40 per cent are not completed.


Madam Speaker, on page 108 of your report states:


“28/16 – Rural Water and Sanitation Project in Mitete District


On 19th February, 2016, the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing made the following assurance on the Floor of the House:


‘Mr Speaker, the Rural Water and Sanitation Project funded by the African Development Bank (AfDB) has already commenced in Mitete District. Preparations for the actual water supply and sanitation infrastructure development will start this year.’”


Madam Speaker, not even a single borehole has been sunk since the then Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing made this assurance on the Floor of this august House. I would like to find out from the AfDB where they have taken the money. From the ninety-five boreholes which are supposed to be drilled in Mitete, not even a single one has been drilled. What is happening? I am also as totally disappointed as the Committee. Where we make assurances, let us fulfil them. If what has been tabulated here by your Committee cannot see the light of day, what of the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa/Mumbejhi Road, which is not even in this report? The issue concerning this road keeps being twisted. Today, we can be told that three contractors are already on site and tomorrow, we will be told that the issue has got the President’s attention. How can we have hope if what has been tabulated by Deputy Ministers then is not being fulfilled?


Madam Speaker, I just wanted to register my disappointment. In your report, all the works in Mitete have stalled and we do not know when the Government will fulfil its assurances. I still go back to what I said yesterday. Let us manage our attitudes and resources in the right manner. If we will not be able to do that, the assurances will remain assurances.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, we still have a lot of business this morning and the nature of this report is that the Committee is reminding the Executive of their unfulfilled assurances. It also serves as a basis for you, as hon. Members of Parliament, to continuously remind the Executive in your work. For that reason, I do not see why we should spend a lot of time going through the same issues that the Committee has gone through. The information is here and I would urge hon. Members to use this information during the course of the Meeting to remind the Executive about the assurances that they have made. Therefore, let us make progress. I will take one more Member from my left and another from the right. After that, I will allow the Government to respond.


Mr Lufuma, Dr Imakando and Mr Jere indicated.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will allow only one Member from my left. We need to make progress. You can decide amongst yourselves. I have the hon. Member for Livingstone, the hon. Member for Mongu Central and the hon. Member for Kabompo on this side (left).




Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will allow the hon. Member for Livingstone.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Livingstone, are you giving way to the hon. Member for Mongu Central?


Mr Jere (Livingstone): Yes, Madam Speaker.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mongu Central.


Dr Imakando (Mongu Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to speak on this very important subject on Government assurances although with a bit of difficulty.


Madam Speaker, Government assurances can be commonly described as positive declarations intended to give confidence. These are words of honour, guarantees and promises made by a good Government. These are commitments that are brought to this august House and the country at large.


Madam Speaker, let me turn to page 79 of the report and highlight two assurances that were given by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government:


“Mr Speaker, the construction of King Lewanika University in the Western Province will commence in January, 2015. A contractor, by the name of Datong Construction Limited, has been identified. The project is estimated to cost K160 million. The project will be constructed within a period of three years.”


Therefore, the project should be completed by the end of this year. However, your Committee notes the progress made, but is disappointed at the slow pace of the project, given that it was to be completed in three years. Your Committee urges the Government to expedite the works and awaits a comprehensive report on the matter.


Madam Speaker, when the Republican President was opening the First Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, he said that the construction of Lewanika University would commence soon. I am from Mongu Central where this university is supposed to be constructed. There is no construction going on. There have been assurances from the hon. Minister and the Republican President, but there is nothing happening.


Concerning Kalabo/Kalongola Road, this is a very important road and the assurance came to this House as follows:


“Mr Speaker, the construction of the Kalabo/Kalongola to Sitoti Road is scheduled to commence in the second quarter of 2016. The contract has been awarded to China State Construction Engineering Corporation Limited for a sum of K1,695,918,648.60 for the duration of forty-eight months.


Sir, the Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), has plans to construct the above-mentioned crossing points under the same contract.


Mr Speaker, the works on the crossing points will be implemented under the same contract and are scheduled to commence in 2016.”


Madam Speaker, this is 2018. Your Committee expresses concern over the inordinate delay in finalising the financing agreement for the project. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to speed up this matter so that the project can commence without undue delay. Your Committee awaits a progress report on the matter.


Madam Speaker, before hon. Ministers make these assurances, it is expected that they would have checked and completed the financing agreements. It is expected that they would have checked the budget and ensured that the budget allocations are in place. One expects that before these assurances are made, the capabilities of the firms carrying out the work would have been checked. One would expect that compliance with policies, procedures, regulations and laws would have been checked. In fact, one would expect that they would have ascertained their risk management and looked at the possible risks including issues of corruption and fraud, so that as they give that assurance, they know that everything will be done according to plan.


Madam Speaker, these broken assurances from the PF Government are bringing into question the integrity and reliability of information that is brought to this august House. I urge the Government to give assurances bearing in mind that the integrity and reliability of their information is now being questioned.


I thank you, Madam.


Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!


Mr C. M. Zulu (Luangeni): Madam Speaker, firstly, I would like to congratulate the mover of the Motion, Hon. Kamondo, and the seconder. As we go out to campaign for people to vote for us, we promise them a lot of things. We promise them that the Government will construct a road, school or clinic and at the end of it, they trust us. Trust is the foundation of leadership. Once you violate the trust of the people, then you are through as a leader. Unfortunately, when we promise the people, we give them hope that a school, clinic or road will be constructed. When we come here, we present these problems to our colleagues on the Frontbench and they promise to implement the projects. For example, I have been talking about Chikando Secondary School and I even raised a point of order. It is now seven years and up to now, there is no activity at the proposed site. We have been talking about the Chadiza/Vubwi Road. The contractor just put soil on the road and now, it is almost impassable.


Therefore, what we present to the Executive should be followed up. If there is no money, it is better to simply say so. We do not lose anything. Of course, there are challenges. Someone mentioned the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development and since two or three years ago, I was the Deputy Minister of the ministry, I was touched when he talked about it. However, today, I was surprised to read in The Daily Nation that fuel allowances for Ministers have been scrapped off. Therefore, how are they going to perform? It is quite frustrating when you are put in a position and you do not have resources. It does not make sense. As we give assurances to the people, we must follow up and ensure that the projects are implemented. If the projects cannot be implemented because there is no money, it is better to say so.


Madam Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.


The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa): Madam Speaker, we appreciate the contents of the Report of the Committee on Government Assurances whose main objective is to ensure that appropriate action is taken on the assurances.


The Executive, through the Ministry of Finance and His Excellency the President of the Republican of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has shared issues pertaining to the state of the economy. We have gone a step further to share with the House and the nation on the steps that are being taken so that we can continue with the issue of re-engaging all the stalled projects and programmes that have been highlighted in the report together with those that have not been mentioned in the report.


Madam Speaker, there are no broken assurances from the PF Government since we are still in charge and it is in our interest to stay in the Government by delivering to the people of Zambia. One of the issues that needs to be addressed is that of monitoring and evaluation of which the Executive has seen the need to enhance. We need to strengthen the capacity of civil servants, who are the technocrats, to monitor and evaluate. In some quarters, these technocrats are failing not just the Government, but also the people. That is why the establishment of the School of Government will help with the retraining and training of new entrants that are coming into the Public Service so that we all are focused and able to work to the expectation of the people of Zambia.


Madam Speaker, we appreciate all the recommendations that have been given and we will take that into account by responding. As I said earlier, the Government is there to serve the people and we live by our word. For as long as we are in Government, we intend to deliver.


With these few words, Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Mr Kamondo: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the following Members: Dr Kambwili, Dr Imakando, Mr Mutelo and Mr Zulu for their contributions to the debate on the Report of the Committee on Government Assurances.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Question put and agreed to.








The Anti-Terrorism and Proliferation Bill, 2018.


Report adopted.


Third Reading on Tuesday, 26th June, 2018.








(Debate resumed)


Mr Jamba (Mwembeshi): Thank you, Madam Speaker, for this chance accorded to me to add my voice to this important Motion. When business was interrupted yesterday, I had just started debating.


Madam, your report on the issue of livestock starts by reading as follows:


“The livestock sector is relatively underexploited, but recognised as an increasingly important part of the agricultural economy.”


Madam Speaker, from that statement, you will note that this report is important. This is because it recognises that the livestock sector has potential, but it is not exploited. It leaves much to be desired. What can we do as a country to exploit this important sector?


Madam Speaker, for me to put this point into perspective, I would like to bring to the attention of the House that comparative advantage is important when we look at livestock. If we are going to stock of livestock in this country, we have to consider comparative advantage. What do I mean?


If we took a look at the wetlands such as the Kafue Plains and Zambezi Wetlands, we would realise that these are areas where we can breed animals per hectare. In the grasslands, we can breed one cow per hectare, but in the woodlands, it can be one animal per 10 ha. Which one would someone take? You can breed many animals in the wetlands. Therefore, if I was going to exploit this sector in a prudent manner, I would borrow money to improve it.


Madam Speaker, I would also urge the hon. Minister of Fisheries and Livestock to put up cordon lines along the wetlands. I am talking about putting game fence wires on the Kafue Basin on both sides of the plains and then -




Mr Jamba: You heard what I said …


Mr Zulu: No, we have not!




Mr Jamba: Therefore, the issue here is that, if we are going to improve this sector, we are supposed to put up these cordon lines and mount gates so that each person who goes there with his livestock is identified. This will help us control the diseases.


Madam, livestock business is lucrative. We can depend on it and raise money to work on our roads without borrowing any money.


Madam Speaker, I can assure you that if we breed animals in the Kafue Plains, we would make a lot of money. For instance, if this year we have 100 head of cattle, next year, we will have another 100. In the third year when we decide to sell, 100 animals can give us over K300,000.


Therefore, we can avoid the issue of continuous borrowing of money and putting it into projects that cannot generate money quickly. I can tell you that if we are going to create wealth, we must talk about real wealth, not wealth that is gained through mining things and the following day, those things finish. However, if we talk about engaging in livestock business, we are going to have new cattle which will be multiplying and, then, we can sell them.


Therefore, the Government must come up with a deliberate policy to improve the livestock sector and reduce diseases. What is hampering this sector is what is mentioned in the report, and that is, there are no punitive measures. For example, you will find that there is a dip tank nearby, but someone cannot take his animals for dipping. The report says that people have options whether to take their animals for dipping or not.


I would like to urge the hon. Minister to come up with a deliberate rule that if someone does not dip his animals, he or she must be punished. The punishment must be clear and meted out to them so that animals are protected.


At this time of the year, Madam Speaker, there are a lot of ticks moving around because some people are not dipping their animals. In the process, corridor disease breaks out and affects other livestock. Therefore, for us to create wealth as we have said, we must put our heads together and invest in the livestock sector.


Madam Speaker, it is not only livestock in terms of beef animals, but we can also keep dairy animals. Hon. Minister, please, try to look into the idea of breeding dairy animals for milk. At the moment in Zambia, we are importing powdered milk from New Zealand and Kenya. Surely, what type of people are we if we cannot even make powdered milk in our own country?


Madam Speaker, we have enough land for breeding animals. Therefore, if we plan to get money somewhere, we must borrow money to restock dairy animals because these animals will give us liquid cash on a daily basis rather than putting money on some roads that are not economical. I have seen roads which are genuinely not economical. You will find that from morning up to evening, only two cars pass through that road, yet we invest money in such a road. How do we recoup that money?


Madam Speaker, the issue is that if the Government could invest enough money into dairy animals, I can assure it that all the problems people go through such as failing to send their children to school because they cannot afford schools fees and other school requirements and blown off roofs, would be a thing of the past because we have enough money, which would put back into the economy.


Madam Speaker, one day, as I was watching television, I saw a group of hon. Ministers with our Head of State in some small countries like Swaziland or Lesotho. They were admiring one of the dairy farms in that country and how developed they are. How could we learn from small countries that do not even have good rainfall, have dairy farming? We have to make sure that we develop dairy farming in this country. We should fight for this cause and promote dairy farms which can produce milk and eventually, powdered milk.


Madam Speaker, there are companies such as Trade Kings in this country, which are making a lot of children’s food. The company is spending a lot of dollars by exporting their goods to Australia and New Zealand. If we embarked on promoting dairy farming and improved on it, we would make sure that the dollar remains in the country. There is no malice in dairy farming. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to fight for this. We shall back her up as much as we can and ensure that dairy farming is enhanced.


Madam Speaker, disease control is important. Therefore, if the Government wants this country to start exporting beef and other dairy products, which we are talking about, we must make sure that we control animal diseases. One cannot go into Shoprite or Pick n Pay to buy contaminated meat from South Africa. In order to avoid that, we have to ensure that we control animal diseases in our communities. Therefore, if there is a ministry, which is supposed to be well-funded in this country, it is the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock. This ministry can make our economy grow. When we compare this ministry with others, some ministries are just like choosing whether to buy a pair of shoes or walk without putting them on because one can afford to walk without shoes, as long as one is able to produce food.


Madam Speaker, I have seen people who move with neckties, chipale na njala, but alibe na ndalama, but ali nama tie.




Mr Jamba: Hon. Minister, …


Madam First Deputy Speaker: You know what my question will be. What does that mean, hon. Member for Mwembezhi?


Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I am saying that there people who put on suits and neckties, yet they are poor in their pockets. On the other hand, there are some people, who do not even wear shoes or nice cloths, but have a lot of money and are wealthy. Therefore, as a country, we do not need to have the chipale and pretend to be clean, thereby moving around saying that we have roads when the country is broke. The idea is to carry out manual work such as rearing cattle and breeding the dairy animals so that we can generate money. The generated income is going to create wealth for our country. We should not continue borrowing money when we have all the wealth to develop our country. Why should we continue doing things like that? One of the statements in your Committee’s report is saying that if dairy farming is enhanced, it can reduce poverty. Surely, if we take this route, we are going to reduce poverty in our country.


Madam Speaker, the problem we have in this country is that the priorities are not usually considered. How can one start buying shoes when you have food munyumba? How can one do that?




Mr Jamba: How can one do that? The issue at hand is that we should consider priorities first. Therefore, I would rather look after cattle, develop it and make them breed so that at the end of the day, I reduce poverty in my household. Thereafter, I can go to Toyota Zambia and buy a Land Cruiser for cash, not for nkongole.




Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, can you interpret nkongole and munyumba. You have continued to take that path without interpreting those words.


Mr Jamba: I am sorry, Madam. I am saying all this because I am passionate about this matter. I was saying that it is wrong to accrue credits in a home when one does not have money. The idea is that we must develop wealth so that when it is increased, we can start buying things on a cash basis.


Madam Speaker, let me tell the House that your report incorporates the issue of land. I want to state that without land, agriculture cannot prosper. We have problems to deal with land. If we do not incorporate the land issue, which your report has highlighted, in agriculture, then, we are going nowhere. I want to tell the Government that the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources needs to come up with deliberate programmes to teach people on the importance of land so that land is not sold to foreigners.


Madam, in my constituency, part of the communal grazing land where cattle development is carried out by my people has been sold to private investors. Can you imagine that the wetlands where people were growing and stocking animals have now been turned into sugar plantations and the money is going into an individual’s pocket? We need to make a deliberate move so that the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources can work together and ensure that land is protected.


Madam Speaker, if one has 20 ha of land; they must be empowered so that they can grow sugar cane which they can sell to someone who has a grinding machine. While the land remains mine, I can sell the sugar cane. Why are we encouraging people to come from China and buy our land? We must tell them that when they come to this country, they must set up a plant if they want to make sugar so that local farmers can sell their sugar cane to them.


 Mr Jere: Hear, hear!


 Mr Jamba: Then, people will know that is their property.


Madam Speaker, I have been to Kaleya in Mazabuka and it is working very well for Zambia Sugar Company in Mazabuka. When one goes there, they would find that there are out growers in that area and people own land, therefore, it does not belong to private investors. When the sugar cane is ready, they take it to Zambia Sugar Company in Mazabuka for it to be processed into sugar, but the land still belongs to them.


Madam Speaker, what is happening in Mwembezhi is that people are buying land and relocating the local people so that they can grow sugar cane. The money which is realised is theirs. How can we reduce poverty like that? The people who are coming to buy land must be told that land belongs to the local people. Therefore, if investors want to grow cotton in Zambia, they must set up a plant or ginnery. The local people should be encouraged to grow cotton so that when it is ready, they take it to the ginnery to enable them to earn some money. If we did that, business would be fifty/fifty and everything would be fine.


Madam Speaker, if we do not handle the land issue now, it will be a source of bloodshed twenty years from now because our children will have no land. What will follow is that they would want to repossess their fathers’ land and the title deed will become irrelevant because they will tell them to take the title deeds while land will be in their hands. What are they going to say?


Madam Speaker, lastly, before I sit down, I have noted with concern what is happening around Lusaka. Big farms, which were called crown land, which Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom gave to many farmers on the rail line, where our forefathers were staying, but were not developed into farms, are being subdivided in to 5 ha and are being sold to individuals.


I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources to have a close look at the individuals who are subdividing big farms such as 6,000 ha into plots of 5 ha or individual plots. Where are the Zambians? If those people are tired of occupying the land, let them leave it because it belongs to our forefathers. They should leave it so the people who do not have land can occupy it.


Mr Jere: Hear, hear!


Mr Jamba: Madam, I have seen big farms, where our forefathers used to stay. What is happening is that people who bought them are becoming richer because they are subdividing and selling it. We should reject the idea of subdividing land. If a farm is meant for maize production and the title deeds states that the piece of land is for farm use, we should not allow them to subdivide it. If they do not want to continue farming, they should leave it so that the Government can allocate it to people who want to carry out agriculture activities. We cannot continue doing things in this manner. Therefore, I want to support this report because it is a very good and important report. I speak with passion over this issue because it is very important for me to do that.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Madam Speaker, I thank Hon. Jamba for debating well. My debate this afternoon is just to urge the Government to look at the agriculture sector very seriously. I want to dwell on the tours of the Committee. There is no doubt that after touring all the learning institutions with programmes in agriculture, it was found that there is no institution that is able to produce good graduates because of the state the institutions are in. According to the report, even the University of Zambia (UNZA) has no finances. The university has inadequate or dilapidated teaching facilities and there is a lack of modern equipment in lecture rooms and laboratories, coupled with low staffing levels.


Mr Speaker, if we were serious about agricultural development, I think the first point would be to improve the learning institutions. I know that all the leaders in this country talk of diversification of the economy and agriculture is number one. If we want to do that and create employment for the people of Zambia, it has to start with agriculture. Not every Zambian will be employed in formal employment. I think agriculture carries many people, including the youths and women. If we are to improve the agriculture sector, it is just wise that the Government concentrates on this sector. Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister to fight for a lot of funding to these institutions of learning.


Madam Speaker, my heart bleeds to read that the Luchembe Goat Breeding Centre in Kanchibiya District is now just a white elephant. After spending a lot of money on this centre, there are only thirteen goats there. If we went back there, we would see that, maybe, there are no goats anymore. We have seen laboratories in the North-Western Province that have suffered a similar fate. We have one laboratory that was built with a lot of money, but it is non-functional. If you went to breeding centres in Kanyama, you would notice that there is nothing to talk about.


Madam Speaker, I stand here to urge the Government to just give priority to agriculture, especially the learning institutions. If we improved them, we would have good graduates that will improve the agriculture sector in the country. At the moment, institutions like the Zambia College of Agriculture in Mpika, Natural Resources Development College (NRDC), and Palabana Dairy Training Institute all have problems. No wonder we have problems in implementing the Electronic Voucher (E-voucher) system in Zambia. The learning institutions are all in a deplorable state.


Madam Speaker, with these few words, I want to support the Committee’s report.


Thank you.


Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to add my support to your Committee’s work. After reading the report, which is very comprehensive, I think the Committee did great work. I will just add my voice to the land management issue, which the Committee brought out very well.


Madam Speaker, as we all know, Zambia’s total land mass is limited. We do not have unlimited land. It is only 752,614 sq. km. Therefore, if we misuse our land, there will be no other land to find somewhere. That is how important it is. As we know, among the factors of production of land, labour and capital, land features very critically because there is no socio-economic development without it.


Madam Speaker, your Committee raised two critically issues that I saw in the report. The first one is the lack of transparency in land allocation and distribution in both the state and customary land systems. I think that is a polite way of saying, maybe, there is corruption in the way land is being allocated. If there is a lack of transparency on how land is changing hands, then basically it leaves room for corruption in the land allocation system.


Madam Speaker, secondly, another key issue that your Committee raised was diversity in the number of players involved in the land use, control and management. There are too many players. There is the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources as the custodian, but there are a lot of other players like the Ministry of Local Government, the Department of Resettlement under the Office of the Vice-President and traditional leaders among others.


Basically, the whole system forms a cobweb. It is like a maze that you have to find your way through. As I will point out, this is creating huge challenges in a constituency like Bwana Mkubwa. While some people are getting papers from the Ministry of Agriculture, others are getting land documents from the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources and Ministry of Local Government and solving these problems has been very challenging.


Madam Speaker, nonetheless, we must commend the Patriotic Front (PF) Government because since 1964, it is the first Government to seriously address the issue of land. Therefore, I want to thank the hardworking hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources who will table the National Land Policy soon in Parliament. If you have a patient who has malaria, you have to administer treatment by, maybe, giving him/her quinine or whatever medication. Therefore, the PF Government is seriously addressing all these issues that I have raised.


Madam Speaker, I will draw your attention to the Report of the Auditor-General on Government Efforts to Ensure Access to Land in an Effective Manner, 2017. Most of the issues that have been raised by the Committee are actually well captured in the Auditor-General’s report. As lawmakers, I would like to ask us to fully support the National Land Policy when it comes to Parliament because it is a non-partisan issue.


Madam Speaker, with that said, I would love to talk on behalf of the people of Bwana Mkubwa Constituency about some of the practical issues that we have had in the land sector. First of all, we have issues currently in Chichele. Those who know Ndola will attest to the fact that when going to Kitwe, there is Chichele Forest. Chichele is a huge piece of land. The problem we are having is that there are many people who have been farming there for many years, but all of sudden, a huge piece of land has been given to one big buyer. There are hundreds of families there who have had to start camping overnight because a company called Golden Lay has been given papers to own the land in Chichele. The families have been told to move without an alternative place. As Member of Parliament representing the people of Bwana Mkubwa and Chichele in particular, I will not allow that situation whereby people are displaced minus an alternative location because they have been on that land for a very long time. That is why we want the land policy to be presented urgently to this august House.


Madam Speaker, secondly, we have places like Old Regimen, just after Indeni Petroleum Limited, where people have settled since 1963. They built houses and other properties there, but the land has been sold to an oil marketing company. Therefore, 5,000 people have been given three weeks’ notice to move out. We will not allow that chaos in the land sector and that is why we need a proper land policy.


Madam Speaker, we have had situations where land has been sold to foreigners. An example is in Jaracanda, in Bwana Mkubwa Constituency, where a man of Somali origin had the audacity to breakdown the property of Zambians. Since these foreigners have money, they will rush to court and find some sleazy lawyer. Since the poor people cannot afford to go to court, you will find that people are abusing the judicial system in order to grab land from the poor in my constituency.


Madam Speaker, there is another issue which I just received last week. This is why I am urging the Ministry of Local Government to work closely with the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources, Ministry of Home Affairs and all Government entities because the chaos or cobweb, as I call it, has grown very big. People are now giving plots in Mushili, where I grew up, under high voltage lines belonging to the Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC) and Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO).


Madam, that was in a report that was documented by people and I handed it over to the Town Clerk of Ndola City Council. I told the Town Clerk to take this issue up with the police because we need to arrest the perpetrators. However, what we are seeing is the lack of discipline. When you take reports to the people who are supposed to act, they do not act. As Member of Parliament, I took a report to the Ndola Town Clerk and up to today, I am wondering what is happening. Do people have immunity for giving plots under high voltage lines? We should not allow that kind of chaos.


Madam Speaker, the other issue which is heartbreaking is encroachment even on Government land. If you to Bwana Mkubwa Constituency, you would find only one high school called Caritas. However, a church has been built on the land of this Government school. I do not know the story of the chicken and the egg. If you believe in evolution, maybe, the egg came first. If you believe in creation, the chicken came first.


However, in the Caritas High School situation, a Government school was already in existence and then a corrupt council goes and gives the plot to a church. The church has built a huge building inside a Government high school land. The case has been in court for five years and as the saying goes, justice delayed is justice denied. I urge the hon. Minister of Justice not to allow cases to take five to seven years and thereafter disposed of when people have clearly broken the law. If the Government land can be encroachment on, what about poor people’s land like farms? You will be seated at your place, but someone is subdividing your yard. That is how serious it has become. Therefore, I am urging the Government to come out very strongly on these perpetrators of illegalities.


Madam Speaker, there is also the issue of construction in unserviced areas. For those who know Ndola, it is growing southwards where Bwana Mkubwa Constituency is. We have huge pieces of land, but there has been so much chaos in the allocation of this land. Even councillors are giving land on their own. Since the Ndola City Council has the land agency, it has suspended land allocation almost two times now because of the chaos, but the chaos has not stopped. I do not know what the answer is. The National Land Policy will probably address that, but what the problem is now is that people are building anyhow and anywhere. They are even blocking roads. Where there is supposed to be a road, there is a house. Someone has built a house, but they cannot come out of the house because there is no road. That is what is happening in Ndeke and Malasha areas.


This is creating pressure on development. If 60,000 people have built in a place where there are no roads, water and sewer lines, the pressure to provide those services will be on the Member of Parliament for that place. The people will say “Alifilwa uku leta umusebo” which means “He has failed to bring a road” in an unserved area. They will also say “Alifilwa uku leta ama laiti” which is “He has failed to bring electricity.” All these services that people know are associated with development are burdened on the Member of Parliament, which is very, very unfair.


Madam Speaker, there is also a growing trend of people abusing the President’s name. When I have gone to see people fighting over plots, someone said that they were given a piece of land by President Mwanawasa, but they had no papers to show that they were given the land by President Mwanawasa. Another one said that President Rupiah Banda had given him the land. People have resorted to abusing the Presidents’ name in order to acquire pieces of land. I reiterate that the National Land Policy, which the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources will bring to Parliament, will probably go a long way in addressing most of these issues. We need to support that policy. It is a non-partisan issue. Once we get these issues right, we will have a good platform for development.


Madam Speaker, lastly, your Committee clearly stated that it is recommending strong, punitive measures for people who are perpetrating illegality. Personally, I have had to take people who are involved in land illegalities to the police. Surprisingly, after I take them to the police, within a day or two, they get out. No one has ever been taken to court to be prosecuted. I, therefore, urge the Government to be very strict and punish all the people who are involved in illegalities. Otherwise, this will be like a dog chasing its tail, going round in circles. We need to stop the cancer once and for all.


Madam Speaker, with those few words, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate.


Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, let me join my colleagues in congratulating the Committee that worked on these subjects.


Madam Speaker, my debate will be centred on the first subject, which is livestock production and restocking in Zambia. From reading this report, one gets an impression that there is a possibility that you can do something over and over again and expect to get a different result. We know the problems associated with this industry.


I will pick up from where my young colleague and friend, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembezhi left. There is a need to identify the comparative and competitive advantages of people who inexplicably were placed in a league with cattle rearing. I am very proud that I come from that group of people who have grown up inextricably linked with cattle rearing as a habit and as a business. It is important for us on the left and right side of the House to agree that for as long as we do not change the attitude of how we perceive this industry, we will never get it right. 


Madam Speaker, I have heard, in the past, how hon. Ministers in the Government have used cattle rearing in satirical ways by likening me to a cow. The one who said this about me being a cow is seated right here in this august House. One wonders whether this person appreciates that a cow is not just t-bone on a dining room table, but that it is also like a bank. I put it to the individual in question who likened me to a cow that, that is similar to likening me to a million dollars. For as long as we do not appreciate that a cow, especially one that produces milk, can amount to a million dollars, we will keep getting it wrong. I had a chat one time, at the Lusaka Show Grounds, at a place called Livestock Services, where I met one former hon. Member of Parliament, Mr Mwansa Kapeya. He said to me: ‘Do you know that only serious people meet here?’ So I said: ‘I have a feeling only serious people meet at places like this and Farmers’ Barn.’ Those who are not serious meet cows at the dinner table, as t-bone.


Madam Speaker, next door, in Botswana, they have an industry that has claimed prowess in agri-business. Botswana is a desert or arid place. The Tswana do not have enough water, but they have made a mark on the international market by selling probably the best beef south of the equator. Zambia could be a hundred times, if not more, better positioned to rear cattle. 


Madam Speaker, in this report, I saw pictures of the University of Zambia (UNZA) Veterinary Services Department. Your Committee lamented the dilapidated buildings in that institution of learning. It has attributed the failure of this industry to the fact that this higher learning institution is given very little funding. I come from the Kafue Flats. I am a Twa by tribe. The plain that the hon. Member for Mwembezhi spoke about is exactly where I was born. We had people there like the late Njilimuna, my uncle. He stopped school in Grade 2. However, at the point of his death, he had over 2,000 head of cattle. I am trying to draw a comparison between UNZA, which has dilapidated infrastructure and Mr Njilimuna, my uncle, who stopped school in Grade 2, and at the point of his death, had over 2,000 head of cattle. 


Madam Speaker, the regime for promoting this industry is simple. We need grass, water vaccines and dipping. Over and above that, we need leadership, but not the leadership that thinks that to be called a cow, is an insult.  Actually, it is like being called a million dollars.


Madam Speaker, let me bring back my argument to the beef industry in Botswana. In Botswana, the beef industry is doing much better because of value addition. I want to put it to that friend of mine who thought I was a cow that when you kill a cow, you can get hide, cheese, milk, meat, cow dung, which is organic fertiliser, horns, hooves and glue. All these are valuable.  We have a leadership here that thinks that when they see a cow, they can cut a bit of it to take to the dinner table. No wonder we cannot improve. If we took stock of ourselves – I know that my friend here, my brother in law here, has cattle. It is no excuse to say that because someone comes from a certain region of the country where they are not used to cattle rearing. “Tatwa belelela ifwe uku –” which is “We are not used to cattle rearing.” Cattle rearing is possible. It can be done.


Madam Speaker, I must just quickly say that the Committee did not do me a favour by lamenting the lack of funding. This brings me to the argument of donors. In this report, we have a segment on donor intervention in this area.


Zambia exports maize bran. The backloads that come from Walvis Bay, bringing things from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) come back laden with maize bran and husks to go and feed the animals in Botswana that qualify to be on the international market. We are very good at exporting. That is a fact.


In the Eastern Province, most of the gaga, the number three meal is all over. We are, therefore, exporting potential feed to Botswana which, in turn, produces best quality beef, but we fail to make the international mark. To me, that shows there is something wrong with us.


Madam Speaker, the other point is that the hon. Members on your right thought that referring to someone as kachema was derogatory. Kachema means herdsman. Little did the hon. Members on your right know that when you refer to someone as a kachema, then you are elevating them to a point of no return. This individual who was referred to as a kachema has his act together and so, he should be used as a shining example of how it is possible, with the Government intervention, to make the beef industry much more lucrative for the economy of the country than the copper industry. We have failed as a group, to add value to copper. Instead of adding value to the copper that is coming from the Copperbelt, we have run out of ideas and now, we have a slag collapsing all over young unemployed people in Kitwe and burying them alive.


Madam Speaker, my argument here is simple and it is that we can add value to our livestock industry. It is possible and we can stand proud. I was in Nairobi last week. In that country, you will find a group of people called the Masai. They also exist in Tanzania. In this country, if you see a cow on Cairo Road, that will be big news. Therefore, one wonders why seeing a big bank like Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) or Standard Bank should be big news. People must understand that, that resource is one that can remove people from abject poverty. All that is needed is patience.


Madam Speaker, on page 4, your Committee’s report states that:


“ ... the following, however, were highlighted as the most important trans-boundary diseases:


  1. Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD);


  1. Contagious Bovine Pleuropneumonia (CBPP); ...”


Madam Speaker, when your Committee refereed to these diseases as the most important, I got confused. The report went on to say that your Committee learnt that for Zambia, the most important ones were, − the use of ‘most important’ left me totally behind, and I wanted to have a private chat with the Chairperson of this Committee over the same. That is because we know very well that when one says something is important, then, it is of great value and significance. That is what important means. I would have put it differently and said that the most devastating among these setbacks is Foot and Mouth Disease and CBPP. I, therefore, wonder why they called it important. Maybe, I require to be educated.


Madam Speaker, let me end by commenting briefly on the National Land Policy. The last time the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources had an altercation with their Royal Highnesses, I walked across this Floor and had a chat with the hon. Minister. During our chat, I suggested to the hon. Minister that she would be very successful if she involved the traditional headmen in drafting the National Land Policy. I am sure she remembers my words. I said so because the traditional headmen are the actual custodians of people. It is like a political structure which has a provincial, district and the ward chairman. It is the branch chairman who knows where the people are. I told her to get everyone on board if the Government wants to get it right.


Madam Speaker, you cannot bring a controversial law, coming from where you are standing and then, have another group of people, who are the chiefs tell you that what you are doing is not correct and leave behind the people who are directly affected by that National Land Policy. My colleague and friend from Bwana Mkubwa Parliamentary Constituency lamented the chaos that goes on in land administration in Zambia. I want to put on record the fact that Bob Marley’s song about “ganja” talks about how a seed is killed before it grows. This act of, ...


Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is “ganja,” hon. Member?


Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, “ganja” is a psychotropic substance commonly known as dagga or marijuana. Marijuana is another word for it. The song talks about killing the seed before it grows. We heard from the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwana Mkubwa Parliamentary Constituency how Ndola City Council (NCC) has perpetually been denied the chance to administor land on behalf of the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources.


If you looked around, you would see that the Lusaka City Council (LCC) also deserved to be part of the story of being suspended or having its licence withdrawn. That is because that seed was sown by the Patriotic Front (PF), the party to which the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources belongs. We are on record as having lamented and raised one point of order after another on how they began sharing land in Lusaka West and the police just keep looking. We were witnesses to the fact that there are hon. Ministers who have been sitting there who have said that our people have suffered for far too long and that they need to have land without a system. What you see is what you get. What is happening in Ndola is not strange because it was actually percolated by the PF and it must be held responsible for it. I want to say that with regard to the NCC, the hon. Minister acted above board because I am sure that the Government had to, painstakingly, withdraw that licence despite the fact that Ndola is controlled by the PF in terms of numbers.


Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister should not have stopped there. Instead, she should have gone ahead and found the culprits, brought them to book and prosecuted them. That way, the Government would have used Ndola as an example of how bad vices are unacceptable in running the Government. For as long as the Government treats this issue, which is laced with high levels of corruption, with kid gloves, we will not get it right. It will consume you and eat you up not just as an individual, but also as a party, which is the PF. Before you realise it, you will be gone because the Zambian people have got their eyes open. They are even scared to blink knowing very well that the moment they do so, you will have changed position and taken away their land using your cadres. Time has come for you to realise that whatever goes up, must come down. It is a principle of gravity that whatever goes up, must come down.


Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam.


Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Wakolewa!




Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I will terminate the last two minutes by addressing another issue that I had marked in this report. That issue has to do with livestock and, in particular, pigs. On page 24 of your Committee’s report is a picture of a dilapidated piggery from the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC).


We have also been told that swine fever is endemic in some parts of the Eastern Province. There is a way to deal with this because Dr Guy Scott did it at one time. He slaughtered all the pigs when he was hon. Minister of Agriculture and compensated those who lost in a bid to start afresh. It is possible. The Government cannot sit and resign to the fact that it is endemic and claim there is nothing they can do.


The Government says we cannot move pigs into new areas because there is disease. However, what they are doing in essence is making sure that the people in the areas that they say have endemic diseases are subjected to poverty. People will go there and slaughter the pigs and then come and sell them to the market here in Lusaka at a higher price, which is exactly what happens to my friends from the Western and Southern Province where there is a cattle movement ban.


Madam Speaker, I do not agree with the Committee’s suggestion that we promote the cattle movement bans. We see cattle moving everyday from the Southern Province and the Western Province, maybe, in carcass form, bought cheaply and sold expensively. In that gap, somebody is making money while the person in Shang'ombo who was seated rearing this cow from day one to the point of sale is getting peanuts. You are promoting poverty. That is what you are doing.


Madam Speaker, I looked hard in this report and, maybe, I did not see it, but I think artificial insemination as a programme for cattle is one sure way of multiplying the numbers of cattle in this country.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have three hon. Ministers indicating to speak. With the time we have left and the fact that we still have another order, I will allocate eighteen minutes to the three hon. Ministers to share.


Ms Kapata indicated dissent.


Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am sure the hon. Ministers will understand that we need to conclude business. I will start with the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources who has indicted that she wishes to travel.


The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Ms Kapata): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 8th June, 2018.


Firstly, I wish to commend the members of the Committee for their concerted efforts in coming up with the report being debated today. The report has brought out a number of salient issues in a bid to bring about development in the agriculture, lands and natural resource sectors. I also wish to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament for their valuable contributions to this debate, which I believe can contribute to improving the three sectors under consideration. My debate will focus on the lands sector.


Madam Speaker, one of the contributing factors to non-adherence to processes and procedures in land acquisition is a lack of information among citizens. The ministry shall continue to make available information on correct procedures and processes in land acquisition through massive sensitisation programmes throughout the Seventh National Development Plan period.


The ministry takes cognisance of the challenges that the continued absence of a National Land Policy poses to efficient and effective land administration and management. To this effect, the ministry remains committed to finalising this process and shall seek opportunities to engage with various stakeholders, particularly the chiefs who have reservations on some clauses in the draft policy.


Madam Speaker, this morning I just circulated the draft National Land Policy. I am sure all the hon. Members have received their copies. It would be good if they can read the document. The ministry is open. Please, come through and give us your contributions.


Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the National Land Audit and Titling programmes commenced in 2014. The first two years, 2014 to 2016, were preparatory years. The implementation period is five years which is from 2017 to 2021. The two programmes will run concurrently.


Madam Speaker, the following are expected to be achieved by 2021:


(i)         a National Land Use Master Plan with statistics of the total land available and usage patterns. This will improve general land usage and contribute to social economic development; and


(ii)        issuance of over two million certificates of title to property owners. This will guarantee security of tenure and provide a form of collateral for engagement in other economic activities, thereby improving livelihoods. Registration of more property shall also contribute to non-tax revenue through the payment of annual ground rates by property owners.


In order to ensure that this is achieved, the ministry will put the following in place:


         (i)         amend the various land related pieces of legislation;


         (ii)        automate issuance of certificate of title; and


(iii)       employ addition human resource as the current workforce is not adequate to handle the added responsibility.


Madam Speaker, the land audit which was conducted in the Southern Province was spearheaded by the Southern Province Provincial Office. The main objective of this land audit was to ascertain how much land in the province was under State and customary land. The audit further went on to ascertain how much land was available for development. The land audit which the ministry is undertaking goes beyond this, as it brings out the aspect of ownership and land use patterns. However, I wish to take this opportunity to encourage provincial administrations across the country to consider undertaking this exercise as it will ascertain how much land is under their jurisdiction.


Madam Speaker, there is a lack of co-ordination and collaboration among players in land allocation and land use control. The ministry will continue to co-ordinate with the Ministry of Local Government, Ministry of Agriculture, Resettlement Department, which falls under the Office of the Vice-President, the councils and other institutions to streamline land allocation and land use controls. The implementation of the Decentralisation Policy will make this a reality.


Madam Speaker, on the issuance of certificate of title to training institutions, for example, Zambia College of Agriculture, Natural Resources Development College and Palabana, I wish to report to this august House that the issuance of certificate of title to Government institutions is now mandatory. The ministry shall, therefore, work closely with the relevant Government institutions to ensure that this is achieved and Government properties are protected.


Madam Speaker, the land agency of Kabwe and Ndola City Councils were revoked on 6th June, 2017. Following the revocation, a number of meetings were held between the ministry and the two councils. Having met the conditions which were set, I am happy to report to this august House that the land agency of the two councils has been reinstated.


Madam Speaker, let me turn to Sustainable Management of Natural Resources. Before I wind up my debate, allow me to comment on your Committee’s observation that Zambia’s legal framework for timber, wildlife and minerals exploitation largely discouraged sustainable management of these resources, as local customary landholders did not have commercial rights to these resources. For the forestry sector, this has been taken care of by the Forest Act, No. 4 of 2015, which has provided for community participation in sustainable forestry management. The ministry has gone further to develop the community forest management regulations to enhance community participation in the forest management.


Madam Speaker, in concluding, I wish to say, indeed, land is an important resource upon which all social and economic development take place. It is a source of prestige, identity and a means of livelihood to most people. As such, the ministry will endeavour to serve the Zambians diligently and efficiently in administering this God-given resource, sustainably.


Madam Speaker, before I sit down, allow me to respond to Hon. Nkombo who said that the Patriotic Front (PF) cadres are in the forefront grabbing people’s land. I am unpopular in my party because I have put my foot down as Minister of Lands and Natural Resources.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Ms Kapata: Madam Speaker, I have instructed that whether the people who are involved are cadres or not, the law will meet them head-on. I also want to mention here that, in fact, it is the same cadres who moved from the United National Independence Party (UNIP) days, into the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and finally, into the PF. In UNIP, these cadres used to carry flames. After that, they started wearing blue and now, they are wearing green because they want to get land away illegally. We shall deal with the matter as such.


Madam Speaker, I would also be failing in my duty if I did not repeat what I have said several times on the Floor of this august House. Hon. Mwashingwele, in her submission, mentioned that we have not done enough consultations. I do not know how many times I have stood on the Floor of the House and responded to questions and even given ministerial statements concerning the draft National Land Policy. First of all, the consultations of the National Land Policy started in 2006.


Madam Speaker, the first consultation was in 2014 and that was from 6th to 7th March. The relevant line ministries, private sector, non-governmental organisations (NGOs), the research, academia, co-operating partners and even experts from other countries such as Kenya, Ghana and Malawi were all invited.


Madam Speaker, the second consultation was on the 3rd December, 2015, between the ministry and the House of Chiefs. On 15th November, 2015, we consulted stakeholders in all the ten provinces. The chiefs were part of the consultations in the provinces. On the 12th May, 2016, another consultation with the House of Chiefs was done. On the 8th of September, 2016, the House of Chiefs gave the ministry feedback.


Some of the suggestions that the House of Chiefs gave us were put in the second revised draft for the National Land Policy. On 31st October, 2017, the ministry consulted three Parliamentary Committees. On 11th September, 2017, we, again, consulted the House of Chiefs. This means that the House of Chiefs has been consulted three times. On 21st November, 2017, a pre-validation meeting was called where all the stakeholders were, again, invited.


Therefore, I do not understand why people are saying that we have not done enough consultation. I do not know what type of consultation people want. However, as far as we are concerned as a ministry, we have consulted. The last consultative meeting was the national validation meeting which was held on 28th February, 2018, where the chiefs rejected the draft document. The chiefs have since had an indaba on the National Land Policy and we are waiting for the feedback. When we receive the feedback, we will come back to the House and report what the chiefs have put into place.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!


The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Katambo): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. I wish to thank the Committee for the work it carried out and for highlighting the key issues that need the ministry’s attention. I also take note of the issues raised by hon. Members in their debates.


Let me address some of the issues raised in the report on agriculture, lands and natural resources with regard to agriculture training institutions, particularly the Zambia College of Agriculture in Mpika and the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC). The Ministry of Agriculture operates four other training institutions in addition to the two I have mentioned. We are aware that most, if not all, of the agriculture colleges require an upgrade in order to provide the nation with a high calibre agriculture human resource for the sector. It is only with a highly qualified and vibrant human resource in the agriculture sector that the nation can achieve the set objectives for economic development.


On the recommendation that the institutions must be given authority to retain a percentage of the fees they collect for their operational cost, the Ministry of Agriculture sought authority from the Ministry of Finance to allow all the colleges to retain the funds they raise to supplement Government funding. The Ministry of Finance responded positively and allowed the colleges to retain 100 per cent of the fees that they collect for their operations.


Madam Speaker, Hon. Mazoka raised the issue of seeking authority to offer degree programmes at the NRDC. The NRDC has always been affiliated to the University of Zambia (UNZA). All we need to do is review the curriculum and align the qualifications of the lecturers who will be teaching the degree programmes.


Hon. Nkombo and Hon. Mulusa raised the issue of infrastructure dilapidation such as classrooms, hostels and laboratories. I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Agriculture is currently finalising a grand agreement by the ORIO Project that is expected to improve infrastructure in all the agriculture training institutions. The ORIO Project is expected to fund the upgrading of the training facilities through the rehabilitation of existing infrastructure and the construction of additional facilities.


Madam Speaker, you may wish to note that, as the Government, we have been undertaking rehabilitation works at some of the agriculture training institutes. For instance, at the Zambia College of Agriculture in Mpika, a new lecture theatre has been constructed.


On the issue of turning the NRDC into a department, the ministry has no intention of turning the institution into a department.


Madam Speaker, Hon. Munkonge raised issues on agriculture policies on water. The Ministry of Agriculture has an Irrigation Policy and Strategy that spells out the issues of water for irrigation. Both the Irrigation Policy and Strategy are all aligned under the National Water Policy under the Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection.


The Ministry has also raised funds for irrigation development, working hand in hand with the Ministry of Home Affairs in correctional services and also the farms under the Ministry of Defence.


Madam Speaker, let me conclude by saying that we are considering other options for the upgrade of infrastructure in the Ministry of Agriculture through the agriculture training institutions.


Madam Speaker, I thank you.


Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!


The Minister of Fisheries and Livestock (Ms Mulenga): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to thank all the hon. Members of the House who have contributed to the debate on the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources and particularly on the topical issue of livestock production and stocking in Zambia. Allow me to address the issues raised in your report and let me take this opportunity to acknowledge and thank the Committee for a job well done.


Livestock Production Extension Services


Madam Speaker, I want to note that the ministry has been granted Treasury authority to employ 250 extension officers and funds have been provided for in the 2018 Budget. The extension officers will be provided with induction training to enhance their skills in livestock production, extension service delivery and disease diagnosis. This is aimed at enhancing extension service delivery in fisheries and livestock and controlling disease.


Madam, the Government is also demarcating veterinary camps in order to improve extension service delivery.


Research and Livestock Development


We acknowledge the importance of research and livestock development and its contribution to the development of the fisheries and livestock sectors the country. In this regard, research is ongoing to improve fish and livestock production and productivity, fish feed and pasture. Further, research is ongoing in vaccine production to reduce the cost of management of imported vaccines. The ministry is expanding its services on artificial insemination in order to increase production and productivity.


Madam Speaker, in all these efforts, Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) have been brought on board to position themselves in terms of their contribution to livestock and fisheries development. The challenges faced by fisheries and livestock training institute breeding centres, for example, Luchembe Breeding Centre and some research stations, will be addressed through Public Private Partnerships where meaningful employment will be created. As such, non-payment of salary arrears will be a thing of the past.


Development of the Livestock Policy Framework


The ministry is in the process of finalising a livestock development policy and strategic plan that outlines the vision, mission and goals, in order to contribute to increased production and productivity of the livestock sub-sector. The policy will also enhance the existing systems in livestock breeding, marketing for livestock and livestock products and measures to curb livestock theft.


Enforcement of Pieces of Legislation


Madam Speaker, the ministry has developed the necessary regulations that will soon be published and enforced by extension officers soon to be deployed.


Disease Control


As a ministry, surveillance of livestock diseases is carried out for both diseases of national economic importance (DNEI) and management diseases.


Madam Speaker, even though corridor disease is classified as a management disease, the policy on control is different. The approach that is currently used is through cost sharing where the Government constructs dip tanks while farmers are responsible for maintenance and the cost of the dip chemicals. Further, the Government provides immunisation of calves at a subsidised price where a farmer contributes K25 and the Government K85.


Moving forward, however, the ministry is standardising the bill of quantities for dip tanks and will enhance the procurement process to get value for money.


Madam Speaker, before I conclude, please, allow me to just respond to some of the issues raised by my colleagues.


I will begin with the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi who raised an issue on livestock production and was concerned that half of the livestock population is under commercial farming and that the Government should do a lot to ensure that the population for small-scale farmers increases through breeding.


Madam Speaker, I would like to note that the hon. Member of Parliament for Dundumwezi raised an important issue, but to say that 2,000,000 cattle are in the hands of commercial farmers is not true.


Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!


Ms Mulenga: I wish to correct the perception and inform this august House that 80 per cent of livestock in Zambia is actually owned by the small-scale farmers. At an appropriate time, the ministry will release the results of the livestock census to confirm this position.


Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!


Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member also raised concerns about livestock infrastructure development. I would like to put a notion to him that with regard to inadequate infrastructure, there are ongoing programmes under the ministry that support stocking and restocking, livestock infrastructure development, improvement of slaughter houses and abattoirs, milk collection centres, dip tanks and other related infrastructure, pasture development, goat rearing, poultry rearing and livestock disease control.


Madam Speaker, I wish to advise the hon. Member to form as many co-operatives and women groups and clubs as possible in his constituency and encourage them to apply for these grants. Some of the programmes which will be carried out in his constituency will be through the Livestock Infrastructure Support Programme (LISP); Enhanced Smallholder Livestock Improvement Programme (E-SLIP and enhanced Smallholder Agric Business Promotion Programme (E-SAPP).


Madam Speaker, the hon. Member also raised an issue of access to drinking water for livestock.


Madam Speaker, the ministry is working in collaboration with our sister ministry, which is the Ministry of Agriculture, to construct dams and weirs throughout the country with the support of the World Bank. These dams and weirs will benefit fisheries, livestock and crop farmers.


The hon. Member also talked about pasture development.


I wish to respond by saying that the Government has ongoing programmes to train framers on pasture development. This year, the Government has procured 30 tonnes of pasture seed and will distribute it to farmers throughout the country. In addition to the seed and training, the Government will provide beneficiaries with fertiliser for growing pasture. Further, the Government has also secured US$1.5 million for pasture development.


Hon. Opposition Members: Twaumfwa!


Ms Mulenga: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member also said most livestock are prone to diseases because there is no fencing of livestock in areas such as the Southern Province, open grazing and communal grazing lands to prevent the transmission of diseases like foot and mouth diseases and corridor diseases. Foot and mouth disease and corridor disease can be reduced by fencing.


Madam Speaker, I want to note that yes, it is true, but it is also very unfair to think that the Government can buy fencing for all livestock farmers. This is impossible. The Government cannot afford to erect fences for each and every farmer. Farmers with a large herd are, however, encouraged to apply for grants for construction of paddocks for ranching. The ministry is also building capacity in the farmers to take up livestock rearing as a business. In this way, farmers can use some money from their proceeds to erect paddocks for themselves.


Madam Speaker, I just want to quickly respond to Hon. Munkonge, who said that the Government should not focus on stocking and restocking only in one area of livestock as it exists, but also extend to other areas.


Madam Speaker, I want to note that the Government is not regional. Restocking and stocking problems are countrywide. There are many ongoing projects countrywide and I urge hon. Members of Parliament to taken keen interest in the projects and consult the ministry on how to access the funds. I urge all hon. Members to approach the ministry to discuss further on the various projects that surround them.


Madam Speaker, I just want to conclude by saying that most of the issues that have been raised by hon. Members of Parliament are similar, but what I would like to say in conclusion is that the ministry is undertaking various projects across the country. Therefore, it is up to hon. Members of Parliament to come through to our offices and have discussions with the technocrats and l so that we give them advice on the various projects that can benefit the people in their constituencies. Therefore, please, hon. Members, we have an open door policy. If you come to the ministry, you are bound to benefit.


I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Speaker, allow me to thank those who have debated your report, namely Hon. Sing’ombe for Dundumwezi, Hon. Mwashingwele for Katuba, Hon. Jamba for Mwembezhi, Hon. Mulusa for Solwezi Central, Hon. Dr Chanda for Bwana Mkubwa, Hon. Nkombo for Mazabuka Central and the Executive.


Madam Speaker, I beg to move.


Question put and agreed to.  




(Debate resumed)


The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Malanji): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to continue where I left off yesterday. I was giving guidelines on some of the salient issues noticed by the Committee.


Madam Speaker, to start with, the ministry sponsored some trips for Parliamentary Committees to create an informative platform of what is happening in our missions. Our missions’ mandate is to foster Zambia’s political and economic interests in countries where we have interest. Zambia maintains a very cordial relationship with all countries where we have a diplomatic mission presence.


Madam Speaker, the perceived delay in responses from host governments is something that sitting members of staff in our missions should follow-up and intensify on their relation with the host governments in the areas where we have missions. The noted recorded deficit with Namibia and in a few other countries is something that is receiving serious attention from the Government.


Madam Speaker, as you may know, Zambia is in the process of signing the protocol of the continental free trade area. However, we had some reservations because we want to have wider consultations with other stakeholders that will include the business society because we do not want Zambia to be a dumping ground. As you may know, there was a summit relating to that in Kigali, Rwanda and quite a good number of Southern and African Development Community (SADC) countries did not append their signatures to those protocols. Similarly, we want to make sure that once we append our signature to those protocols, Zambia stands to gain.


Madam Speaker, on investment in Zambia, we are all aware that we have trade attachés in our missions and these trade attachés are not just sitting. We are trying to ensure that they attract as much business as possible to Zambia. With regard to investment in energy, which has been cited in the Committee’s report, allow me to bring it to the attention of this august House that through SADC, Zambia has started a process of having an interconnector between Zambia, Tanzania and Kenya. This is something that Zambia is going to benefit from when we start having surplus power supply. Apart from that, we are also on the drawing board to have an interconnector from Mozambique to Zambia and into Malawi.


Madam Speaker, with regard to the emoluments of our colleagues in Angola, it should be noted that emoluments for all civil servants have a standard -


Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!


(Debate adjourned)




The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 26th June, 2018.