Wednesday, 20^th June, 2018

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

______

 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

 

INTER-PARLIAMENTARY UNION ASSEMBLIES SEMINAR

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that there will be a seminar for hon. Members of Parliament on Monday, 25^th June, 2018, from 0900 hours to 1630 hours in the amphitheatre, Parliament Buildings. The seminar will focus on topics domesticated from resolutions of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) assemblies.

 

As hon. Members are already aware, it is not practical, though desirable, for all hon. Members to attend the IPU assemblies. It is for this reason that I have, in the past, encouraged the Executive Members of the IPU and the local IPU Secretariat to hold seminars for all hon. Members of Parliament to discuss topics and resolutions from IPU assemblies, as this would benefit the entire membership of the House.

 

The seminar, therefore, is aimed at enlightening hon. Members on the topical issues considered and the resolutions made at the IPU assemblies. The seminar will be facilitated by various international and local resource persons. All hon. Members are, therefore, urged to attend this seminal seminar.

 

Thank you.

 

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

CORRECTION OF MEDIA MISREPRESENTATION OF INTANGIBLE CULTURAL HERITAGE DEGREE PROGRAMME AT UNZA

 

The Minister of Higher Education (Prof. Luo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to clarify, through this ministerial statement, the recent misrepresentation in the media and the perception created, especially by Hot FM Radio, through social media, about the Intangible Cultural Heritage Degree Programme to be offered at the University of Zambia (UNZA).

 

Mr Speaker, the discourse that has been in the media, in the public and, sometimes, even through comments in this House, is very telling. It actually shows that there is an urgent need for us to invest appropriately in the higher education sector of this country.

 

Sir, from the outset, allow me to unreservedly condemn the irresponsible and uncalled-for media sensationalism that has resulted in this misrepresentation of facts. Time and again, through this august House and other fora, I have emphasised the importance of responsible, evidence-based and factual reporting by our media houses. However, journalism in Zambia today has become sensational and is aimed at just evoking unnecessary interest and misrepresentation of facts to the public, as has been the case with the issue at hand.

 

Mr Speaker, on 11^thJune, 2018, the Secretary-General of the Zambia National Commission for the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO), Dr Charles Ndakala, through a press statement, informed the nation regarding the new UNESCO supported programme in Intangible Cultural Heritage to commence at the UNZA Institute for Economic and Social Research, Department of History. In the Secretary-General’s speech, he pointed out the objective and importance of this programme in Zambia. The verbatim of the statement was shared with all media houses and I wish to lay a copy on the Table of the House.

 

Mr Speaker, at no point in that statement was any issue of witchcraft mentioned. However, a named media house, in a prototypical exhibition of mis-education, translated and equated intangible heritage to witchcraft. Without any further verification, research or enquiry, this media house decided to sensationalise the story and report that UNZA was developing a degree in witchcraft.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I believe that this is against journalism ethics, as it is a clear misrepresentation of facts that resulted in misleading the nation.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me to clarify this matter by providing information to this august House, and through it, the entire nation of Zambia on the Intangible Cultural Heritage Programme to be offered at UNZA. The Intangible Cultural Heritage is a programme whose development and implementation will be funded by UNESCO at a total cost of US$340,000. The main objective of the programme is to ensure that Zambia documents and preserves its intangible heritage. The support was secured through a competitive process in which UNZA submitted a project proposal and was awarded this project. Two countries other than Zambia succeeded in their bids for financial support. One of the countries is Uganda.

 

Mr Speaker, this project is aimed at developing and implementing a degree programme at UNZA on the preservation of intangible cultural heritage and not witchcraft. Therefore, the project has many objectives, which are:

 

1. to improve a critical mass of experts for intangible cultural heritage and safeguarding in Zambia;

                               

1. to improve the level of training for intangible cultural heritage administration and experts to university level so that they could be better prepared to implement the UNESCO 2003 Convention on safeguarding intangible cultural heritage; and

 

1. to provide a niche for critical research and in-depth understanding in the field of intangible cultural heritage.

 

Sir, the UNESCO 2003 Convention defines intangible heritage as practices, representations, expressions, knowledge, skills as well as instruments, objects, artefacts and cultural spaces associated therewith that communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals recognise as part of their cultural heritage.

 

Mr Speaker, intangible cultural heritage is manifested through various ways such as:

 

1. oral traditions and expressions including language as a vehicle of their intangible cultural heritage;

 

1. performing arts;

 

1. social practices, rituals and festive events;

 

1. knowledge and practices concerning nature and the universe; and

 

1. traditional craftsmanship.

 

Mr Speaker, Zambia, as a nation and a people, is rich in intangible cultural heritage which includes, among other things, Gule Wa Mukulu and the Makishi Dance, which were inscribed in the UNESCO Safeguarding List in 2006. Other traditional ceremonies such as Kuomboka, Umutomboko, Nc’wala, Ukusefya Pa Ng’wena and Likumbi Lya Mize are full of exciting arrays of intangible cultural heritage expressed in dances, songs and other performances.

 

Sir, this intangible cultural heritage is transmitted from generation to generation and constantly recreated by communities and groups in response to the environment and our interaction with nature. History provides us with a sense of identity and continuity, thus, promoting respect for cultural diversity and human creativity. It needs to be safeguarded and protected for future generations through documentation and cataloguing. This is part of the Intangible Cultural Heritage Programme at the university. In fact, documentation of many things that Zambia has known and enjoyed has been one of our biggest weaknesses.

 

Mr Speaker, to interpret this rich cultural heritage as witchcraft is both misleading and unfortunate. It is an exhibition of a severe lack of understanding and appreciation of our history and culture at the highest level. Through the utilisation of this intangible culture, the people of the Western Province have survived generations of flooding in the plains through the Kuomboka Traditional Ceremony. Many tribes in rural areas across the country have relied on traditional medicines and other activities that have safeguarded the health of many in rural areas. In fact, at the moment, many African countries are paying for traditional medicines which they knew, but gave up because they were told that they were primitive. The western world has been coming to collect our roots, barks of trees and leaves which it uses to make medicines that are, then, given back to us at a high cost.

 

Sir, traditional folklore that is passed from generation to generation has exhibited wisdom necessary for stable societies. It is against this background and the understanding of the importance of indigenous knowledge systems that UNZA is introducing the programme that will help to preserve intangible culture. If not preserved, intangible cultural heritage can easily be lost and, once lost, it may never be recovered.

 

Mr Speaker, in addition, my ministry, through UNZA, is cognisant of the fact that witchcraft is a crime in Zambia, as outlined in Cap 19 of the Witchcraft Act of the Laws of Zambia. It is, therefore, unthinkable for UNESCO, which is a law-abiding and international institution, and UNZA, which is a public owned university that houses the critical mass of intellectuals in this country, to engage and support criminal activities of witchcraft.

 

Sir, it is important that the media endeavours to avoid misinforming the public as that is likely to lead to public unrest. In this regard, I wish to urge all media houses and journalists to verify their stories because such careless reporting is unethical and can lead to problems.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, there must be a time when some of these journalists or media houses get sued for misinforming the nation. UNESCO has been a long-standing partner of the Zambian Government and the country has benefitted immensely from various projects in the area of education, science and technology, and cultural preservation. It is my trust and belief that all well-meaning Zambians will sincerely appreciate the efforts of UNESCO and UNZA in promoting our cherished cultural heritage, both tangible and intangible. As a country, we would like to express our profound gratitude to UNESCO, through its UNESCO Intangible Cultural Heritage International Assistance Fund and the Zambia National Commission for UNESCO, for the material and financial support in developing a degree programme in intangible cultural heritage for the benefit of the Zambian people.

 

Sir, I wish to lay on the Table of the House the following documents in support of the ministerial statement:

 

1. the speech issued by the Secretary-General of UNESCO of 11^th June, 2018;

 

1. a statement from UNESCO on the misrepresentation of facts regarding that statement; and

 

1. a press release from UNZA on the programme.

 

Mr Speaker, let me conclude by stating that the reaction on social media regarding this issue is very telling. It means that as a country, we really need to guard against misrepresentation of facts by social media. Before we know it, social media will swallow up this country. We need to ensure responsible and ethical reporting in this country. Our media houses need to invest in the education of their reporters. In fact, let me take this opportunity to suggest that those who have qualified in scientific subjects must take on journalism as a subject so that they can report correctly. Some of the already qualified journalists may wish to undertake science as a subject so that they have a good understanding of issues. That way, they will not misrepresent issues in their reporting.

 

Sir, I would like to thank you for this opportunity.

 

Thank you, Sir.

 

Prof Luo laid the papers on the Table.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Higher Education.

 

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Higher Education for making a ministerial statement on this issue which has spread like wildfire across various media.

 

Sir, I know that the hon. Minister has been disappointed with the way the media has portrayed this academic arrangement, but her definition of intangible cultural heritage, if I understood her correctly, seems to include witchcraft.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Simfukwe: Witchcraft encompasses artefacts and many cultural elements. Instead of being disappointed with the media, should the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) not have stated that it will support the programme on intangible heritage except witchcraft, which is illegal in Zambia, rather than creating the impression that witchcraft does not fit into the definition of intangible cultural heritage when it does, according to the hon. Minister’s definition?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, perception and fact are two different things. Witchcraft has been defined in the Act. In all the statements by UNESCO and the Government, there has been no reference or discussion pertaining to witchcraft. So, I do not understand how the media house picked on witchcraft, which was not mentioned. What was contained in my ministerial statement is what is factual and I will not agree to talk about witchcraft which we did not mention and is not included in our programme.

 

Sir, if, in fact, there was anybody who in his/her proposal wanted to carryout research on witchcraft, then, he/she could do it as a research subject. However, in this particular case, nobody is talking about witchcraft because we know that it is a crime. Therefore, nobody will study or offer a degree on an issue that is a crime.

 

Mr Speaker, it is like saying that because violence is what it is, then, it is okay to talk about sexual violence, but that is not the case. We are talking about things that are culturally acceptable and that we want to preserve. Intangible heritage talks about passing culture on from generation to generation and preserving it. I do not think there is anywhere in Zambia or Africa where there has been intent to preserve witchcraft.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Mr Speaker, before I ask my question, I would like to define the word “intangible” from the Oxford Dictionary of English. At page 899, it states:

 

“Intangible (adjective): unable to be touched, not having physical presence. For example, the moonlight makes things seem intangible, difficult or impossible to define or understand, vague and abstract.”

 

That is the definition by the English themselves.

 

Mr Mutelo: Yes. That is intangible.

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Sir, I was expecting to see the content of this programme called the Intangible Cultural Heritage Programme in the documents the hon. Minister of Higher Education laid on the Table. Is the hon. Minister able to give us the content of that programme?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, we are able to give hon. Members the project proposal that was presented to UNESCO for the benefit of those who would like to offer a degree at the university in witchcraft because we have no intention whatsoever of doing that. I will make the proposal available.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, Zambia is an African country which has cultural traditions and that is why we have the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. However, we are also a Christian nation and that is why we have the Ministry of Religious Affairs and National Guidance. I think these two ministries guide us in applying our national values and principles. So, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how she is co-operating with the two ministries in order to avoid the controversy that we are hearing about.

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, Government ministries work closely together. We have inter-ministerial Cabinet Committees where these issues are discussed and co-ordinated. I am working closely not only with the two ministries that the hon. Member has mentioned, but also with many other ministries that are very critical to the work that the Ministry of Higher Education does.

 

Let me take advantage of this question to inform my colleagues and the nation at large that the precursor to development is education. Therefore, the Ministry of Higher Education co-ordinates and speaks to every single ministry in the Government. Infrastructure would not be successful if education was not provided. Tourism would not move if education was not provided. We would not have telecommunications and the co-ordination of transport if I did not provide engineers. The Social Cash Transfer would not be there if I did not provide social scientists. Foreign affairs would not be there if I did not provide diplomatic subjects. Local government would not flourish if it did not have educated people.

 

Sir, my ministry is very important and it is high time we started appreciating the importance of education.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Ms Miti (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, I thank my mother, the hon. Minister of Higher Education for that clarification.

 

I was listening to Channel Africa this morning –

 

Mr Speaker: Did you say your mother?

 

Ms Miti: Yes. She is my mother, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Members: Aah!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Vubwi, when we are on the Floor of the House, we do not advert to any the filial connections however descript. We are confined to certain addresses.

 

Ms Miti: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Sir, I was listening to an interview on Channel Africa this morning and someone clearly confirmed that Zambia has introduced a Degree in Witchcraft at the University of Zambia (UNZA). Zambia is a Christian nation and witchcraft is against Christian norms. What measures will the ministry put in place to erase this misconception?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, one of the reasons I brought this ministerial statement today is in an attempt to start dealing with this misconception and erasing this picture.

 

Sadly, Sir, this is a country that is destroying itself through the careless manner in which it handles matters because many of us have become very political in the way we address issues. We do not only do this locally, but some of us also fly out of the country to tarnish the name of Zambia. So, this …

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Prof. Luo: … was done −

 

You will die with question.

 

This particular issue was carefully orchestrated and those who have invested in social media, who will remain nameless, wanted to use it to satisfy themselves. However, we will work round the clock, through the responsible media, to try to correct this perception.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Mr Speaker, as the word intangible was being defined, I wondered whether the computer software we are using here is intangible or tangible. My question to the hon. Minister is based on social media and politics. I have observed that social media’s capabilities in circulating rumours have become very strong as unrestrained political competition is also strengthening. To what extent does the hon. Minister think that these rumours are connected to politics?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, in my ministerial statement, I mentioned that if we do not deal with the way social media is carrying on in this country, it will swallow us up. I am sure that the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication, who is listening to me very attentively, ...

 

Mr Speaker: Order on both the left and the right.

 

Prof. Luo: ...  will take this social media problem very seriously because Zambia is becoming totally irresponsible by using social media to destroy certain aspects of this country.

 

Mr Speaker, there are people who have been asking me what is happening in Zambia. Why is it that there is so much negative reporting about this country? We are aware that it is political. Those people who failed to get to the top are now using social media to try to get to there.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for her clarification, but could she clarify further. On 21st November, 2017, the Minister of Higher Education, Hon. Prof. Nkandu Luo, advised Zambia to consider research and the study of witchcraft, as a science, because it can be used productively in the country.

 

Laughter

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: That was her advice last year. Research in witchcraft or programmes on research in witchcraft are found the world over at universities such as the University of Manchester, Cornell University and Oxford University. Such kind of studies are undertaken by anthropologists, sociologists and other social scientists. What really does the hon. Minister see as a problem for this new academic programme to integrate research on witchcraft as an important aspect of understanding our intangible cultural heritage in the country?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, in my last statement to this august House, I expressed a suggestion that the people of Zambia who have studied science may wish to invest in some more training to become journalists so that when they are addressing people on issues of science, they can report them appropriately. I also suggested that some of the journalists who may want to study science may wish to invest in studying science in addition to journalism so that they can report appropriately. What was written in the media at the time the hon. Member has quoted is another case of irresponsible reporting.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Uhmmm!

 

Prof. Luo: Secondly, Mr Speaker, I have not said that people cannot invest in research at Cornell University or Oxford University if that is the research subject they want to investigate. However, this particular programme has no aspects of witchcraft and that is why it was very important for me to clarify. The organisation that funded this project has a proposal in its hands.

 

Mr Mwale: You are right.

 

Prof. Luo: There is three hundred and some thousand dollars allocated to this programme. In that proposal, there is no sentence that contains witchcraft. Even in the statements that were made thereafter, there has been no mention of witchcraft. However, should the hon. Member of Parliament wish to undertake those studies when he goes back to the university, it will be up to his supervisors to accept that proposal. For now, the supervisors of this work will not superintend over work to do with witchcraft.

 

Mr Speaker, if hon. Members of Parliament are interested in pursuing issues of witchcraft, they can do so in their constituencies.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: I did not realise that this subject would attract so much interest.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: I thought it was a very innocuous and mundane subject.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: Let me see how I will clear this list.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Speaker, ...

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to raise a very serious point of order on the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, you may recall that, on the Floor of this House, we were assured by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development that the operations at the Black Mountain in Kitwe were not a disaster in waiting and that all measures of safety had been put in place by the Government of the Republic of Zambia and that there would be no accidents arising from the assurances he received.

 

Mr Speaker, today, we have received very tragic news pertaining to the operations of the Black Mountain. A number of our dear ones in Kitwe have perished and others are in hospital. Is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in order to have misled the House and to have assured the nation and the operators at that mine that all safety measures had been put in place and that there would be no accident?

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Shame!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: As if that was not enough, even after that assurance was made on the Floor of this House, there were reports of disasters at that mountain which were circulating in the media and no measures were taken by the Government to ensure safety until today that we have this disaster.

 

Mr Speaker, this is the second most serious disaster in the mining industry in this country since 1971. There is a disaster in Kitwe and the whole country is mourning. Is the Government in order to allow a disaster to happen due to its negligence? 

 

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that my office has already been approached with a view to the hon. Minister in question rendering a ministerial statement. We should have it sooner rather than later.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister has mentioned issues concerning the Likumbi Lya Mize Ceremony, Mukanda and the Kuomboka Ceremony, will the Government consider those who are well-versed in, for example, issues of Mukanda, to become lecturers when this subject is introduced at the university?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mutelo: Sir, which mode will the hon. Minister use to select lecturers in the so-called Intangible Cultural Heritage Programme?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament might wish to apply ...

 

Laughter

 

Prof. Luo: … to lecture in this programme at UNZA. Unfortunately, the university will only allow people with a certain level of competence to do so. That is why in my earlier statement on how we will proceed with this programme, I said that, first of all, we will have to build a critical mass of people with relevant minimum qualifications to lecture in this programme. So, I would like to encourage the hon. Member to, first of all, apply to become a student of this subject and then afterwards, come to lecture.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: I will take the last batch of questions from the hon. Member for Serenje, the hon. Member for Luangeni, the hon. Member for Mufulira, the hon. Member for Mkushi South, the hon. Member for Lubansenshi, the hon. Member for Mumbwa and the last question will be from the hon. Member for Senga Hill.

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Minister for that timely brief on this subject which has been on social media for the past three weeks now. When people do not have facts, they tend to speculate. So, it is important that when speculation makes its rounds, those with information come forward to close the subject. We expected that the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) and other stakeholders not to have been allowed to issue statements on this subject because the hon. Minister’s ministry should be the mouthpiece on this subject. I hope that the hon. Minister has put measures in place to stop other people from commenting on this issue so that it is not blown out of context.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: I thought that was a preamble to a question.

 

Laughter

 

Mr C. Zulu (Luangeni): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister able to define witchcraft? What is witchcraft?

 

Interruptions

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I may not be able to define witchcraft because I have to use the English Dictionary to do so. The reason witchcraft is a crime in Zambia is that it is perceived to harm people and we do not entertain it in Zambia. However, I have been informed by the hon. Minister of Justice that there is some attempt to actually look at the Witchcraft Act so that it is redefined to be in tune with current times.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, witchcraft and Christianity are as old as mankind in terms of an African culture. I know we are a Christian nation, but we should be cognisant of the fact that witchcraft is in our midst. What are the fears of the ministry in introducing the programme at degree level in our universities?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I came here to clarify a programme that is being introduced at UNZA. I did not come here to talk about a programme that does not exist. The university will offer a programme that will document intangible cultural heritage and also look at how it can be preserved. That is what is being done.

 

Mr Speaker, let make take advantage of this opportunity to talk about what was circulated on social media. For example, names of who was purported to be the dean of witchcraft were mentioned on social media and that is not right. That is why for me, as a responsible Minister of Higher Education, it was important to put to rest the negative things that were going around the media.

 

Mr Speaker, if there are those who want to study witchcraft, there are private universities where they can go. We have now allowed people who feel like setting up universities to do so. For example, if a community wants to set up a university, it can do so and offer witchcraft activities. As for the Government, it will only do that which I have described. However, let me caution that if people studied witchcraft in the private universities, the law would follow them because, at the moment, in Zambia, issues to do with witchcraft are illegal. So, people should not push UNZA or any other public institution that I am responsible for to break the law. I want everybody to know that there are no witchcraft studies that are taking place at any of our institutions. There is no programme to train witches and Professor Nkandu Luo is not the Dean of the School of Witchcraft as the university offers no such programme.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, in the hon. Minister’s statement, she indicated that the media adulterated the truth which was given to the press. Do we have a way of ensuring that the press is made to report responsibly?

 

Mr Speaker: I am not sure whether that question should be directed at the hon. Minister of Higher Education. Unless the hon. Minister of Higher Education wants to respond, I think it is misdirected.

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, in fact, I was going to say that the hon. Member may want to pose that question to the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting because this is her responsibility. I am sure that she has heard loudly and clearly that the people who she is responsible for have been misbehaving not only on this particular case, but also many other cases.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, in her statement, the hon. Minister indicated that there are irresponsible media houses. I would like to find out from her if she has clearly identified them so that her counterpart can deal with them.

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, when this issue was reported, I mentioned the source of the information. It was Hot FM Zambia and I am sure everybody else picked it. For me, it is not about targeting any particular media house. The people who are responsible for reporting, through the media, and especially social media, in this country should be exposed to some kind of ethics and responsibilities. This is one case, but there are many other cases that I can cite as irresponsible reporting.

 

Sir, I do not think we should target any particular media house. There is another time when the media misrepresented information, as cited by the hon. Member for Nalikwanda. It was not the same media house, but a different one. Therefore, it is important that people who intend to report on science are grounded therein so that they understand it because it is not an easy subject. Maybe, those journalists who want to report on science should study science in order to report on it. There is no limit to education. Even at sixty years old, one can go back to the university. Therefore, I am imploring journalists from media houses to study science. Since I am also responsible for bursaries, I will ensure that those who will be interested in studying science get bursaries so that they start reporting responsibly.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, my understanding of the institution of witchcraft is that it is crafted in superstitions whose instruments are normally covered in dirt. It uses scary crafts and everything is shrouded in untruths. As the hon. Minister of Higher Education, is it not time that she promoted a programme to teach our children against this institution? Witchcraft has taken us nowhere and it will take us nowhere. Is it not time that our children started learning the truth?

 

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I will give it some thought.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

_______

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

SUPPLY OF CONTAMINATED WATER TO NAKONDE DISTRICT RESIDENTS

 

280. Mr Siwanzi (Nakonde): asked the Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection:

 

1. whether the Government is aware that the water being supplied by the Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company to the residents in Nakonde District is contaminated;

 

1. if so, what immediate measures are being undertaken to avert the outbreak of diseases and loss of life; and

 

1. when the works on the new water reticulation project, which have stalled, will resume and be completed.

 

The Minister of Local Government (Mr Mwale) (on behalf of the Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection (Dr Wanchinga)): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the many challenges the residents of Nakonde are facing in terms of accessing water in the district. However, I wish to clarify that the water being supplied by Nakonde District is not contaminated despite its colour. The colour of the water is as a result of the dilapidated water treatment system. The water being supplied to Nakonde residents is safe for drinking and is chlorinated and tested on a regular basis by the Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company.

 

Sir, as I already indicated earlier, the water being supplied in the district is safe for consumption. However, in order to address any possible outbreak of waterborne diseases and subsequent loss of life, the commercial utility has increased on the dosage of chlorine addition and conducting regular quality testing of the water being supplied to the residents of Nakonde. In addition, regular inspections of the distribution network are undertaken to ensure that no contamination occurs in the system as results of bursting of water pipes.

 

Furthermore, the Government is implementing a project aimed at improving the supply of water in the district of Nakonde. This project will see the construction of a new water treatment plant and distribution systems once completed.

 

Mr Speaker, the project is currently on going and is expected to be completed by the end of the year once funds amounting to K4.3 million are released from the Treasury. The project is at 88 per cent completion.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Siwanzi: Mr Speaker, the water that the people of Nakonde are drinking is not safe and fit for human consumption. You may wish to know that the source of the Nakonde River is in Tanzania. This river passes through a farming area and, for the information of the hon. Minister, it dries up at some point. This is the reason the Government actually brought up the idea of a modular plant because it can purify water within a short period of time. For the information of the hon. Minister, again –

 

Mr Speaker: Are you going to ask a question?

 

Mr Siwanzi: Yes, I will ask the question, Mr Speaker.

 

Ms Chonya: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Siwanzi: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that the water in Nakonde is not safe and he should give the people of Nakonde a tentative time frame within which the project will be completed. When I came to this House in 2016, I was told that the project would be completed by the end of the year. This is 2018 and the project started in 2011.

 

Mr Speaker: Can you put the question.

 

Mr Siwanzi: The question is: Could the project not be completed earlier than stated by the hon. Minister because the information that I have is that it was supposed to be completed in August, 2018.

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is also the desire of the Government to ensure that the project is completed on time so that the people of Nakonde can access even much safer water for consumption. We are engaging the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that K4.3 million is sourced sooner rather than later. That is the only assurance I can give because it all depends on the availability of funds. The Government will continue to pursue the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that the money is found. Otherwise, the project is at 88 per cent completion. As I said, once the money is found, the modular plant will be in place.

 

Mr Speaker, let me allay the fears of the people that this water is contaminated. If it was contaminated, we would have had a disaster in Nakonde by now. What we have is coloured water. It is unpleasant in people’s eyes, but it is chlorinated and safe to drink except that it is coloured.

 

Mr Speaker: I will take four questions from the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwana Mkubwa, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya and close with the hon. Member of Parliament for Mitete.

 

Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, generally, there have been many complaints against water utility companies. For example, in Ndola, we had greenish water coming out of our taps. When we queried, the answer we got was that the water was not contaminated. Later on, we found out that it was contaminated with algae, limbwelimbwe.

 

Sir, according to the hon. Minister, the water is coloured because it passes through dilapidated pipes. In trying to understand basic chemistry, if the water pipes are made of, for instance, iron and they are dilapidated, this means that they have rust, which is iron oxide, and this explains the brownish colour of the water. With iron oxide contamination, we do not expect an acute outbreak because it is not like cholera, but the effects of iron chemicals can take many years to manifest. So, how can the hon. Minister confidently claim that the water is not contaminated?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we draw our confidence from the scientists who regularly test this water. They have told us that the water is okay except that it is coloured. In view of the suggestions the hon. Member has made, we can countercheck this information. Maybe, we will need a second opinion, then, we can come back and give our view to the House.

 

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, water is life and I am aware that this project, which the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde has asked about, started way back when Hon. Nkandu Luo was Minister of Local Government. This project is meant to service the people in Kaputa, Mpulungu and Nakonde. My question is: How often are these projects monitored and evaluated by the water engineers in the hon. Minister’s department in order for them to give him accurate information, considering the new information that the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde has given him that this particular river dries up?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is not a problem of a lack of information or not knowing what is happening in these water utility companies or the amount of water that we have underground or above, but it is a problem of investing funds into improving the water reticulation projects we have in the country. This is an area that is being dealt with through the Ministry of Finance. There is also goodwill from the donor community which is helping us here and there. However, we have to invest our locally generated funds into this project. So, the issue at hand is not that of the lack of capacity, but funding that we need to invest to improve all water plants in the country.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, the pro-poor Patriotic Front (PF) Government …

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: … is concerned about the plight of the people, particularly following the cholera epidemic that struck our nation. May I find out from the hon. Minister who is carrying out the checks on this water and which laboratories are being used. Are they international organisation for standardisation (ISO) 11133:2014 certified? I am glad to hear that independent laboratories will be used to examine this water sample, but are they 11133:2014 certified?

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, we have a long-standing history of ascertaining the quality of water in this country. We have very good laboratories that have existed since Independence that are sponsored by water utility companies dotted around the country and are also supported by laboratories at the University of Zambia (UNZA). These laboratories upgrade their apparatus on a regular basis. I do not think we are lacking in that department. So, I feel they are doing a good job.

 

Sir, like I said, the problem is just the lack of investment to upgrade the water facilities we have in the country. Our scientists and laboratories are equal to the task.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Speaker, this is water we are talking about, and water is colourless. The water in Nakonde that the hon. Minister is referring to is coloured such that it is instilling fear in the people of Nakonde. Therefore, what measures is the hon. Minister considering putting in place in order to eliminate the colour from the water so that it becomes colourless, which is a basic property of water?

 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear! Ema scientists aya!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: It is quite a roundabout question, …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: … but he wants to see colourless water.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I will repeat what I said. It is against the rules of this House, but I will do it just to help the hon. Member understand.

 

Sir, in my response, I said that the Government is setting up a modular plant that will resolve this problem. The works of this plant are at 88 per cent completion. At the moment, we need K4.3 million to complete this modular plant to ensure that the water becomes colourless.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Siwanzi: Mr Speaker, this project started in 2011, but I know of some water reticulation projects in this country that started later, probably in 2015, that have been completed and commissioned. Why has the hon. Minister taken this long to complete this particular project in Nakonde which started earlier?

 

Sir, for the benefit of the House, I will repeat what I said, if you will allow me. I interacted with officials from Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company in Nakonde and, in my view, the report that the hon. Minister is getting from his officers is incorrect. They told me that this particular plant was designed for a small community. As a result of servicing a bigger community than intended, the water is not allowed to settle to enable it to undergo the required process of purification and that is why it has particles. So, in my view, that water is contaminated.

 

Can the hon. Minister do something about the completion of this project which started earlier than other projects? The information that the people of Nakonde have is that this project will be completed in the next two months. So, the news that it will be completed in December, this year, will not be happily received by the community.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hammer, hammer!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, first of all, let me thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Nakonde for doing such a good job in representing his people. He has spoken with so much passion in reminding us of what has not happened.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwale: I think that this is highly commendable. We can pick it up from here and discuss in our offices so that we find an immediate solution to this problem.

 

Mr Speaker, different sources of funding could be the reason some projects may be completed earlier than those which began before them. Some projects are funded by some external sources that may have the monies readily available and the works may start quicker than those of Government-funded projects that rely on the locally generated revenue, such as taxes collected.

This is the reality behind some projects being overtaken by projects that begin later than them.

 

 Madam, the Government is particularly committed to completing this particular project in Nakonde. It understands the challenges the people of Nakonde are going through at the moment. We will have a serious discussion with the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that the money to complete the project is not released beyond December, this year to ensure that the people of Nakonde have access to clean and safe water. We can have a discussion at the office even tomorrow. Maybe, we can find a solution sooner rather than later.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

_______

 

BILLS

 

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

 

[THE CHARIPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

THE ANTI-TERRORISM AND PROLIFERATION BILL, 2018

 

CLAUSE 1 ˗ (Short title)

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move amendments as follows:

 

1.  In Clause 1, on page 7, in line 4 by the deletion of the word “Proliferation” and the substitution therefor of the words “Non-Proliferation”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 2 ˗ (Interpretation)

 

1. In Clause 2, on page 9

1. in line 16

by the deletion of the word “under” and the substitution therefor of the word “in”; and

1. in line 24

by the deletion of the word “under” and the substitution therefor of the word “in”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 5 ˗ (Establishment of National Anti-Terrorism Centre)

 

Mr Kampyongo: I beg to move amendments as follows:

 

1. In Clause 5, on page 15, in the marginal note

by the deletion of the word “Establishment” and the substitution therefor of the word “continuation”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 6 ˗ (Functions of Centre)

 

1. In Clause 6, on page 16

1. in line 6

by the insertion of the words “terrorism financing” immediately after the word “terrorism”; and

1. in line 30

by the insertion of the words “terrorism financing,” between the words terrorism and proliferation.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 7 ˗ (National Anti-Terrorism Committee)

 

1. In Clause 7

1. on page 17, in line 18

by the insertion of the words “part-time” between the words “following” and “members”; and

1. on page 18, in lines 2 and 3

by the deletion of paragraph (b) and the substitution therefor of the following:

(b)        is mentally and physically incapable of discharging the functions of a member;

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 14 ˗ (Entry by anti-terrorism officer or other authorised persons)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 14, on page 21

 

1. in the marginal note

by the deletion of the word “persons” and the substitution therefor of the word “officer”;

1. in lines 1 and 2

by the deletion of the words “an authorised officer or any persons authorised by the Centre for the purpose” and the substitution therefor of the words “or and authorised officer”; and

            (c)        in lines 14 and 15

by the deletion of the words “an authorised officer or a person authorised by the Center” and the substitution therefor of the words “or an authorised officer”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 22 – (Prohibition of proliferation financing)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 22, on page 23, in line 28, by the insertion of the word “financing” after the word “proliferation”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 22, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 23 – (Weapons terrorism and proliferation training)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 23, on page 24, in line 1, by the insertion of the words “who commits an offence” between the words “person” and “under”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 23, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 24 – (Directing terrorist organisation or proliferation related entity)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 24, on page 24, in line 26, by the deletion of the word “an” and the substitution therefor of the words “a terrorist”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 24, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 33 – (Use and possession of property for terrorism and proliferation)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 33, on page 26, in line 32, by the deletion of the words “this section” and the substitution therefor of the word “subsection (2)”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 33, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 40 – (Declared terrorist organisation or proliferation related entity)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 22, on page 23:

 

1. in line 23, by the insertion of the words “or entity” between the words “organisation” and “to”;

 

1. in line 25, by the insertion of the words “or entity” between the words “organisation” and “operates”;

 

1. in line 26, by the insertion of the words “or entity” between the words “organisation” and “referred”;

 

1. in line 27, by the insertion of the words “or entity” between the words “organisation” and “has”; and

 

1. in line 33, by the insertion of the words “or entity” between the words “organisation” and “is”;

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 40, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clause 41 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 42 – (Support and meetings)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 42, on page 30:

 

1. in line 20, by the deletion of the word “who” and the substitution therefor of the words “if that person”;

 

1. in line 38, by the insertion of the words “or proliferation related entity” between the words “organisation” and “or”; and

 

1. in line 39 and 40, by the deletion of subclause (5) and substitution therefor of the following:

 

1. A person who commits an offence under this section is liable, on conviction, to imprisonment for life.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 42, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clause 43 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 44 – (Prohibition on dealing with funds and economic resources)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 44, on page 26, in line 30, by the insertion of the words “to imprisonment for life” immediately after the word “conviction”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 44, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 45, 46 and 47 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 48 – (Prohibition of procuring, supplying, provision, import or export of weapons, arms and related materials, sanctioned items and technical advice, services assistance and training)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 48, on page 36, in lines 10 to 12 by deletion of subclause (12) and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

(12)      A person who contravenes this section, commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding one million penalty units or imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, or to both.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 48, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Clauses 49, 50, 51 and 52 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

CLAUSE 53 – (Circumventing prohibitions)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 53, on page 39, in line 15, by the deletion of the word “ten” and the substitution therefor of the word “one”.

 

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

 

Clause 53, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

 Clauses 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68 and 69 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

NEW CLAUSE 70 – (Immunity)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move a new Clause 70 on page 49, immediately after line 2, by the insertion of the following new clause:

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

New Clause 70 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in line 22, by renumbering Clause 70 as Clause 71.

 

Amendment agreed to. New numbering ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

 

 Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in lines 3 to 14, by renumbering Clauses 71 and 72 as clauses 72 and 73.

 

Amendment agreed to. New numbering ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

NEW CLAUSE 73 – (General penalty)

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move a new Clause 73 immediately after line 16, by the insertion of the following new clause:

 

General penalty73.A person who contravenes a provision of this Act for which no specific penalty is not provided for shall, on conviction, be liable to a fine not exceeding one million penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or to both.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

New Clause 73 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in lines 17 to 19, by renumbering of clauses 73 and 74 as clauses 74 and 75.

 

Amendment agreed to. New numbering ordered to stand part of the Bill. 

 

FIRST SCHEDULE

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I beg to move an amendment in the First Schedule, on page 51, in paragraph 3, in lines 24 to 28 by the deletion of subparagraph (2) and the substitution therefor of the following:

 

(2)         Any person who without reasonable excuse fails to comply with the directions given to that person under this paragraph commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding two hundred thousand penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to both.

 

Amendment agreed to. First Schedule amended accordingly.

 

First Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Second Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 

Title agreed to.

 

General Amendments agreed to.

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

The Anti-Terrorism and Proliferation Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments.

 

______

 

MOTIONS

 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON CABINET AFFAIRS

 

(Debate resumed)

 

Dr Imakando (Mongu Central): Mr Speaker, when the House adjourned last Friday, I was about to say that your Committee notes the Government’s plan to operationalise the National School of Government which will help orient newly recruited civil servants and build their capacity through a deliberate programme.

 

Sir, you may recall that prior to its commercialisation and hiving off, the National Institute of Public Administration (NIPA) undertook training programmes mainly aimed at consolidating and imparting Public Service management skills among public servants. Your Committee is hopeful that the National School of Government will revive the old concept and help inculcate a sense of values and patriotism among civil servants and produce an efficient, loyal and hard working Civil Service. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government expedites the operationalisation of the National School of Government.

 

Mr Speaker, before I conclude, I wish to state that because it is new, your Committee on Cabinet Affairs may not be known by all institutions under the Cabinet Affairs portfolio and generally, by the Executive. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government, through Cabinet Office, to sensitise the institutions under its portfolio on the existence of this Committee. This will ensure that the oversight function of the National Assembly is conducted smoothly by your Committee.

 

Sir, in conclusion, your Committee is indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before it and provided it with the necessary memoranda and briefs. Your Committee is also grateful to you for the valuable guidance you provided to it during the year. Allow me to also thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the advice and services rendered during the year. I wish to register my appreciation to the members of your Committee for their co-operation and dedication to the work of your Committee.

 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Mr C. Zulu (Luangeni): Now, Sir. I thank you for allowing me to second the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs. I also thank the mover of the Motion for ably highlighting the salient issues contained in your Committee’s report. However, as I second the Motion, I wish to comment on a few other issues related to the subjects under consideration.

 

Sir, one of the issues that caught your Committee’s attention during its study of the management and operations of various departments under the Cabinet Affairs portfolio is that Cabinet Office has been operating with an outdated organisational structure. This is despite the existence of the Management Development Division, which is a consultancy division for the Government falling under Cabinet Office. It is an unacceptable that Cabinet Office should continue to operate with an outdated organisational structure that is inappropriate for its functioning, as that has a negative effect on its performance.

 

Mr Speaker, the country requires a Cabinet Office that has the capacity to promote professionalism, integrity, effectiveness and efficiency in the delivery of public services. I have mentioned integrity, effectiveness and efficiency. So, allow me to explain what those terminologies mean. Integrity is what someone does privately when they are in the dark while effectiveness is the foundation of success. Efficiency is the foundation of survival.

 

Mr Speaker: Order, Hon. Member!

 

You are seconding and, as I know it, you have a script before you. I would be very surprised if some of those definitions you are adducing were actually within the text. If they are not, please, can you start afresh.

 

Mr C. Zulu: Thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: The Hansard is being created and I think this august House, obviously, would not want to maintain those clearly incorrect definitions of very key concepts of governance. You may try those concepts outside of the House.

 

You may continue.

 

Mr Livune interjected.

 

Mr C. Zulu: Sir, in light of this, your Committee urges the Government to expeditiously review the organisational structure of Cabinet Office to bring it in line with its current functions and improve its effectiveness. Your Committee also recommends that the structure be reviewed periodically to ensure that it stays up to date.

 

Mr Speaker, with regard to your Committee’s study on human resource management in the Zambian Civil Service, your Committee observes that the main policy documents were issued in 2003, which is about fifteen years ago, and have not been reviewed since then. This is despite some of them having been developed under Section 21 of the Service Commission Act, Cap 259 of the Laws of Zambia, which has since been repealed. The documents include the Service Commissions Regulations, Service Commissions Policies and procedures for employment in the Public Service, terms and conditions of service for the Public Service and the disciplinary code and procedures for handling offences in the Public Service.

 

Sir, in this regard, your Committee recommends that the policy documents be reviewed without delay to ensure conformity with the emerging trends in human resource management in the Civil Service and harmonise them with the Service Commissions Act No. 10 of 2016.

 

Mr Speaker, your Committee is concerned about the apparent disregard and inadequate recognition of the critical role of oversight that the National Assembly plays by some Government officials, such as Permanent Secretaries (PSs) and District Commissioners (DCs), who choose to stay away from parliamentary delegations conducting oversight work in their stations. Suffice it to say that such behaviour is evidence of indiscipline at higher levels in the Civil Service and could undermine the oversight work of the National Assembly if it is not checked.

 

Sir, your Committee believes that such behaviour could be linked to the comparison that has been made between hon. Members of Parliament and other political players, such as Mayors and Council Chairpersons, in terms of the order of precedence. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Government, through the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet, considers revisiting the Cabinet Office Circular No. 13 of 2016, which places hon. Members of Parliament below civic leaders in the order of precedence. Your Committee is of the view that the circular has contributed to the disregard of parliamentary work.

 

Mr Speaker, your Committee considers the creation of districts to be within the spirit of decentralisation. However, it observes that, while it is a good idea for the Government to create districts, it has been doing so without providing adequate funding to cater for the recruitment of personnel and operations. This puts pressure on the already inadequately funded Civil Service, as resources have to be thinly spread to cater for all the districts. Your Committee, therefore, strongly recommends that the Government only creates districts that have been adequately provided for in the National Budget

 

Further, Sir, the Government, through Cabinet Office, should ensure that administrative structures are put in place as soon as districts are created to allow the civil servants to get to work and provide the much-needed services in the new districts.

 

In conclusion, I wish to thank you, Mr Speaker, on behalf of the members of your Committee, for allowing us to serve on your Committee. I further wish to thank the members of your Committee for giving me an opportunity to second this important Motion.

 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I thank the mover and seconder of this very important report.

 

Sir, this is another very important report which squarely fits in our activities of governance by assessing the governance system in our country. As a new Committee, I think, it is important to commend you for the initiative taken to establish this very important Committee in our operations as Parliament.

 

After more than fifty years of our Independence, we should, at this point, appreciate the importance of certain institutions that are pertinent to our overall development, as a country. There is no doubt that the Civil Service is the driver of development, the driver of service provision and the engine of governance in our country and in many other countries. Civil servants are expected to have the highest sense of loyalty and patriotism to the country they serve. This is the nature of the Civil Service. There is no doubt that in any country that respects the role of civil servants, attention is given to their competence and professionalism. In fact, in other definitions, civil servants are expected to be omnicompetent, which means they can handle any situation they find themselves in.

 

Sir, there is a culture of being a civil servant. In many countries, there is an induction into the norms, values, traditions and practices upon joining the Civil Service. Those who start from the bottom of the ladder of merit of the Civil Service ultimately become the controlling officers of ministries, the Permanent Secretaries (PSs). So, we are dealing with a very important institution in the governance of our country.

 

Mr Speaker, it is very clear to those, for example, who join the Executive as hon. Ministers, that there is a truism that the roots of the governance of the country, as far as the Civil Service is concerned, are the civil servants. The civil servants are the roots while hon. Ministers are, unfortunately, the leaves of the tree. Yes, many statements and policy pronouncements can be made, but it is the roots that should nourish them.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: It is the roots that should ensure that those statements find their place in the tree. Hon. Ministers come and go.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: No matter how much noise you make in the ministry, …

 

Mr Livune: That is right!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … your time is always numbered, ...

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … but the civil servants are there ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: ... in their sizes, short and tall, and in their shapes, small and big. That is why in many countries that respect the Civil Service, there is respect for permanence of the civil servants …

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … by allowing them to do their work uninterrupted because they are the custodians of where we ought to go as a nation. They must be respected. That is how the Civil Service ought to work. In other countries, for example, in America, when the president takes over the presidency, there is, of course, a team that he/she goes with in the Civil Service system. That team will eventually go away with the president when his/her term comes to an end, but there are those civil servants who will remain in their positions because it is important that they do so for the good of the country. The role of the civil servants is for the public good of the country.

 

Mr Speaker, the report raises a number of problems which, I think, are not good for our country. For example, on page 22, it says:

 

 “Some appointments, recruitments, promotions, transfers, confirmations, and discharges were perceived to be associated with political interference, tribalism and nepotism.”

 

 Mr Speaker, that should not be the case if we respect the pertinent and fundamental role of civil servants. To a large extent, politics should not interfere with the work of civil servants. As much as possible, let us create an environment for the professionalism of the civil servants to flourish regardless of our political persuasion or advantage, as leaders. Yes, this perception of the Civil Service is actually dangerous to the Civil Service itself and to the country’s service delivery. It can stagnate our development aspirations.

 

Mr Speaker, the report further goes on to say that we have a number of frozen positions within our Civil Service for many reasons. For example, according to the report, in the Southern Province alone, 1,292 positions have been frozen. From the point of view of the country as a whole, there are many positions which have been frozen.

 

Mr Speaker, how do we expect the engine of development, the Civil Service, to deliver on its service responsibilities efficiently and effectively with understaffing as a result of the freezing of positions? Your report goes on to state that the performance appraisal of civil servants, which was established way back in 1997, is not being implemented annually. It is a very unfortunate thing. Other countries have gone many miles away in the area of implementing performance appraisal of civil servants. Many of us, I think, are aware of how effectively the performance appraisal of civil servants, including hon. Ministers, is being done in Rwanda. Clearly, if we do not implement performance appraisal systems, there is no way we can know how well our Civil Service is actually performing and delivering on our development aspirations.

 

Further, Mr Speaker, your Committee has come up with findings that there are rampant cases of indiscipline in the Civil Service, including problems of absenteeism, reporting for work under the influence of alcohol and reporting for work late and leaving early. The causes for these problems are a lack of orientation and induction of newly appointed officers into the terms and conditions of service, poor supervision, inadequate vetting during recruitment and placement. This is unfortunate. This characterisation of our Civil Service is actually the surest way of us, as a country, not benefiting seriously from it. So, the bottom of it all is that we are not creating an environment that can enable us to benefit from our Civil Service.

 

Sir, it is our duty and that of those in the Executive to create that environment for this engine of governance to do its work by providing training opportunities, developing skills in the Civil Service and ensuring that it becomes a melting pot of the nations’ talent. All parts of the country must find themselves in the Civil Service. That is how it should be. Katuba can produce a Judge and equally, Nakonde can produce a medical doctor while many other parts of the country can produce other professions. If there is nepotism and tribalism in the operations of the Civil Service –

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was ending my debate.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to give some reflections on this matter. In doing so, I recognise that your Committee comprises five doctors and some senior men and women in this House. So, it follows that the observations made by your Committee must worry all of us.

 

Madam Speaker, I have a number of concerns on this report because Cabinet Office is the centre of the Government. So, I find it very difficult to appreciate why it is not giving the people of Zambia hope. When I look at the witnesses called by your Committee, I note that it received submissions from the provincial administrations and all the service commissions, including the Secretary to the Cabinet. In my mind, I expected to see some hope, but on the contrary, the witnesses appear to lament as I am.

 

Madam Speaker, first of all, all the departments covered appear to signal that they will line up before the hon. Minister of Finance for funding for activities which will, presumably, come in future. However, we know that funding for these projects will not happen because there is no money. The witnesses who appeared before your Committee are the people who are controlling resources. So, I was wondering why they are not setting their priorities right. These are the people who bought the forty-two fire tenders, yet …

 

Mr Mung’andu: Question!

 

Mr Mbangweta: … they do not have time to reflect on the most critical things they should do for the Zambian people in order to deliver services. That is very difficult to understand.

 

Madam Speaker, the other concern I have is that it appears that the Executive routinely makes assurances in this House which it does not intend to keep. I think your Committee reports which we looked at last week indicated this. The Report of your Committee on Cabinet Affairs indicates the same. When I came to this Parliament in 2016, there was a Budget line for the Public Reform Programme and Performance Management. We had that line in 2017 as well and we were assured, on the Floor of this House, that the Government would implement a performance management system. I, therefore, get very surprised that this has not been implemented to date.

 

Madam Speaker, in the Report of your Committee on Cabinet Affairs for 2018, we are being told that:

 

“Implementation of the Individual Performance Management System in the Public Service had been inconsistent. This could be attributed to the general negative attitude of Public Service employees towards performance accountability.”

 

Madam Speaker, even in 2016, we had said that to implement a performance management system was a big job because it required leadership. It also required people to work at it. However, the people who are saying what is now contained in the report are the ones who should be in the forefront implementing the performance management system. The report also states the following:

 

“However, APAS had never been effectively used in appraising performance in Government ministries and other spending agencies. The Public Service Management Division had not adequately communicated to and trained the officers concerning APAS in line ministries and other spending agencies. As such, confirmations and substantive promotions in the Public Service had not been taking place when needed, which resulted in the Ministry of Finance freezing all positions that were not filled at the end of the year.”

 

Madam Speaker, this is happening under the same Government. The issue, then, which arises is: Where has the money for the vote we have been approving been going? This Public Service Management Division (PSMD) is headed by a Permanent Secretary (PS) and three Directors, which is quite top heavy in the sense that they should be able to implement the reforms which are intended to take service delivery nearer to the people. However, nothing is happening, yet we are being told that this is a performing Government. This is not performance. We should all be worried about this because these people are the ones who should give us hope. They cannot complain about themselves or think that they can line up to see the hon. Minister of Finance in search of funds. We know that there is no money, anyway. So, they have to change their mindset.

 

Madam Speaker, the other issue has to do with decentralisation. Quite clearly, and like we indicated last week, this Government pays lip service to decentralisation. It is not committed because your Committee has actually indentified the problem why, to some extent, efforts to implement decentralisation have not yielded much.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee, in this report, has observed that the Revised National Decentralisation Policy of 2013 is in conflict with the Constitution with respect to the powers that ought to be devolved to the councils. The policy came earlier in 2013 and the Constitution came much later, but we still have people in the offices who cannot take care of that conflict. Indeed, it can be said that the process requires money but, definitely, somebody should have done something about this. What has happened now that there has been a failure to implement decentralisation is that the new councils are suffering.

 

Madam, the Central Government is also making all the hon. Members of Parliament suffer by not releasing the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). It is trying to hold on to the CDF and, in the process, attempting to change the rules because it is not interested in actualising decentralisation.

 

Madam Speaker, the other issue of indiscipline is that it appears that very few people in the Government are prepared to implement decisions to which they have committed. We have urged here that District Commissioners (DCs) be given job descriptions so that they can work properly without wasting time trying to buy the councillors from the Opposition and inducing by-elections in the process. What we want is service delivery and not these other issues that do not add value to anything.

 

Madam Speaker, in the context of the new instructions that were issued by the hon. Minister of Finance that prioritisation of funding will only be given to projects that are 80 per cent and above complete, what will happen to districts, such as Nkeyema whose infrastructure is at 20 per cent complete, yet the district was created in 2012? What will happen to the new districts that were created two months ago? Does that reflect the fact that the Government is committed to decentralisation? The answer is no. It is high time the Frontbench changed the way it wants to manage the people of Zambia. If it wants to centralise, let it say so. That is all there is to it. Just as two legs moving in different directions cannot work, there can be no progress if on one hand the Government wants to centralise, while wanting to decentralise on the other hand.

 

Madam Chairperson, last week when we were looking at the Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs, we spoke about the misconduct of the Local Government Service Commission of appointing people, including daily classified employees, from one area and transferring them to other areas, including Nkeyema. Your Committee on Cabinet Affairs has also identified this issue. People from one area are being appointed and transferred to other areas while people in the areas to where these people are transferred are not being appointed. What does the Government think of these people? A general worker or driver cannot be transferred to Nkeyema as if there are no people there who can take up these jobs. What is the meaning of that? It is that the people in Lusaka want power to be concentrated in Lusaka. If it were possible, maybe, we could ask the hon. Members of Parliament to bring the names of the people in their councils when they go to their constituencies next time. We would be surprised by what would come out, and this is what is dividing this nation. There is a group of people that feels that another group of people is not thinking. This is not right.

 

Madam Speaker, we are told that the Management Development Division (MDD) is supposed to be a consultative wing of the Government. However, since 2003, it has failed to update any policy, including the disciplinary code, yet there are so many things which have changed. The PS, directors and a number of people are being paid. This House has also been approving money for certain programmes, but nothing is happening. Therefore, who will provide the comfort that we need if not Cabinet Office? This is the office where the most educated people are supposed to be or are found, but they are failing to perform.

 

Madam, the report has indicated the process of filling a vacancy whether in a province or district. However, the people at the Local Government Service Commission and PSMD agree that, in certain cases, they are employing unqualified people. Therefore, who will rectify that? It is not the politicians. The politicians ought to provide guidance and the people who are employed at these institutions should do their work professionally. Unless they say it is the politicians who tell them not to work professionally, they should work professionally.

 

Madam, Cabinet Office also issues circulars, like we have been told, but nobody enforces what is contained therein. In the districts, it has been established that the Council Chairperson and Mayor be recognised first but, for some reason, indiscipline is encouraged because the DC is recognised first. If Cabinet Office wants the DC to be recognised first, why can it not change that circular? It is very simple. However, if the circular was issued on its own volition, it can then not go against it. Last weekend, hon. Members of Parliament were referred to as “the others”, yet …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mbangweta: … all the people who issue instructions where at that place. However, we talk about discipline and indiscipline. Let us change the way we manage ourselves.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee’s report is an indictment of how low this country has sunk. The people who are responsible must do better because this House has supported Cabinet Office by approving money meant for it and it cannot say that it has done nothing. This is why I have said that we need to pay attention to the report because it was generated by five doctors in this House. So, we are sharing knowledge and not ignorance.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will allow debate from the hon. Member for Lunte, hon. Member for Sesheke Central and end with the hon. Member for Kabompo.

 

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to support the Report of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs. I have been motivated to comment on this report because I believe that Cabinet affairs affect everyone, including the people of Lunte. When I see nurses working in the health posts and teachers in the primary schools and the recently upgraded day secondary schools, I see the work of Cabinet Office.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee raises a number of issues. I have selected three issues on which I would like to speak. Firstly, I would like to speak about the inadequate financial and material resources at Cabinet Office and divisions that fall under the Secretary to the Cabinet. Secondly, I would like to speak about the slow uptake in the utilisation of Information Communication Technologies (ICTs) in the Government. Lastly, I will speak about operating with an outdated organisational structure.

 

Madam Speaker, finances lubricate systems and capacitate Cabinet Office to hire competent workers. Finances also enable Cabinet Office to retain these people and pay retirees who would have served Cabinet Office. Looking at finances from the point of view of payment is just half the story. The other half of the story  is the availability of the finances. I would like to extend this argument and encourage debate not only on the payment side, but also on the revenue side. For the Ministry of Finance to have the ability to fund Cabinet Office adequately, it must have these resources.

 

Madam Speaker, in my view, this argument is huge because it does not end there. It goes further to speak to the general economy on its performance, growth and its ability to stimulate business so that the Ministry of Finance can collect revenue and be able to fund functions, such as the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), Management Development Division (MDD) and Smart Zambia.

 

Madam, many times, we have heard people, including politicians, complain about the Government’s inability to adequately fund projects. At the same time, they urge the Government to reduce collection of revenue from the people. If the Government is unable to fund adequately, how, then, is it to up scale the funding while at the same time restraining collection? More so, we have heard arguments of restraining the Government from borrowing, yet sources of finances are limited.

 

Madam, we have talked about measures such as domestic resource mobilisation and borrowing. However, on one hand, we restrain the Government from collecting revenue because it is overburdening people, yet we want it to pay on the other hand. We need to balance the debate. I think that finances are key. So, the Ministry of Finance must collect and pay so that Cabinet Office can perform its functions.

 

Madam, the Secretary to the Cabinet is mandated to procure efficiency and effectiveness of the general Civil Service and to do that, there is a need to up scale the Civil Service by growing its skills through training people and ensuring that they have the skill to be able to deliver. This can be done by committing more resources and this is why this point has to be extended and discussed fairly and comprehensively.

 

Madam Speaker, secondly, I would like to address the issue of the slow uptake in the utilisation of the ICTs. In your report, your Committee clearly indicates that there is reluctance by civil servants to upgrade to the utilisation of the ICT. I think that the ICT makes one nimble-footed. It enables an individual to work efficiently and enables cost-effective production. So, it is important that our civil servants are encouraged, through Smart Zambia, which was introduced by the Government, to jump on to this bandwagon of applying the ICT because we can no longer use paper-based systems and remain behind when the globe has moved on. To conduct efficient business with anyone, there is a need to apply the ICTs.

 

Therefore, Madam Speaker, the issue of up scaling and committing resources to human resource development is very important. As I said, not to belabour the point of resource mobilisation, it is important for the nation to raise money to implement projects.

 

Lastly, Madam Speaker, I wish to talk about operating under an outdated organisational structure. In my thinking, an organisational structure facilitates the way business is conducted. Bureaucracies are facilitated by the way we configure our organisational structure. So, we need to move with time. Maybe, the resistance your Committee saw in the adoption of the ICTs could be the same resistance that we are seeing in the retention of an outdated organisational structure.

 

Madam Speaker, change must be embraced. Change must always be seen as an opportunity to improve ourselves. The Civil Service must recognise that in order for hospitals to treat more patients, the ICTs are important. In order for professors in universities to be prolific in production of quality students, the ICTs need to be embraced and in order for communication around the country among institutions and individuals to improve, we need the ICTs to be utilised. Therefore, this is a very important aspect of modernisation. We have to modernise our country so that it can become competitive on the global stage.

 

Madam Speaker, with adequate funding to Cabinet Office and the divisions that fall under it, a higher uptake of the ICTs, and an appropriate and well-resourced organisational structure, we can do more.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke Central): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for an opportunity to say a few words on this very important Report of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs.

 

Madam, there are two things which actually struck me in the report. The first one was the fact that the apex of the Public Service, which is Cabinet Office, is not adequately funded. I will liken it to the head of a person. If blood does not reach the head in adequate quantities at the right time, the whole body cannot function properly.

 

Therefore, Madam, the evidence that there is something amiss is that you find the evidence of failure of something everywhere you go in the country. For instance, there are projects whose implementation has taken more than five years and civil servants are running businesses on a full-time basis. When do they work to deliver the services for which they were employed?

 

Madam Speaker, if you went anywhere in the country, you would find that many people go out for completely worthless meetings whose impact is not evaluated, yet the meetings are considered a measure of work. When one attends many meetings, it appears that he/she is working.

 

Madam Speaker, Cabinet Office is important. In the old system, the hierarchy dictated that one could not become a Permanent Secretary (PS) unless he/she attained certain levels of competence. However, today, we listen to the radio and hear that a District Commissioner (DC) has been appointed PS. How possible is that? Is this man a genius or what?

 

Mr Mukosa: He has attained the competence levels.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kufakwandi: It is not possible. The reason they were called PSs was not that they were to be positioned in one office permanently, but that they were to hold the position permanently because of the experience they possessed. They could be moved from one office or ministry to the other, but still carried with them their experience and knowledge. However, this is no longer the case and this is why we have a problem.

 

Madam, your report has indicated that one of the key functions of Cabinet Office is to ask sector ministries to translate the Cabinet’s decisions into policies and programmes. However, if the office which is supposed to carry out this important function has no resources to make follow ups, what will happen? Many things that will happen will be unco-ordinated, as is the case. It also appears that there is a lack of a strong advisory capacity or role of Cabinet Office.

 

Madam Speaker, for instance, we are discussing managing our debt, cancelling of projects and limiting work to only projects which have reached 80 per cent completion. However, like the hon. Member for Nkeyema questioned: What will happen to the projects in new districts? This simply means that all projects in the new districts will be cancelled because some of them are at 0 or 20 per cent completion. Therefore, nothing will happen in the new districts. Is that what the Government is implying? No. Clearly, we know that there will be work carried out in the new districts.

 

Madam Speaker, as articulated in the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP), the projects at less than 80 per cent completion can help us reduce poverty and narrow the issue of inequality in the country. They can also help us address the issue of climate change.

 

Madam, if we took two projects, that is, a market and a bus station, which are at 35 per cent and 70 or 80 per cent completion respectively, ideally we would choose to concentrate on completing the bus station. However, what we must actually look at is which of the two projects has the capacity to positively impact the lives of our people more.

 

Madam Speaker, a market can transform the lives of people in a very short time because the councils will receive more tax from it.

 

Mr Jere: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: In turn, the Government will have more money coming from the market which could be directed at completing the bus station.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kufakwandi: This is how we should have looked at this issue. However, we want to go for projects, which are at 80 per cent. What is 80 per cent? We have to look at efficiency and how we can change the lives of people in the shortest possible time.

 

Madam, the other point which has already been raised by my colleagues is that of decentralisation. One begins to wonder what we want to achieve by decentralising. By definition, decentralisation is the devolution of power to the local people. If one went to the district councils to look at what is happening there, he/she would establish if the people being sent there can help to change the lives of the local people.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are people in these districts who are not employed, but are very qualified. Instead, someone else will be sent to the district as an administrative officer, yet there are many people with Degrees in Human Resources (HR) in the districts. Why are they not considered? Why do we have to go elsewhere in search of people to take up these positions?

 

To make matters more interesting, Madam, the DC is the head of the Civil Service in the district. How is that possible? How can a person who has had no grounding in the administration of the Public Service be appointed to head a district?

 

Mr Jere: Shame!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: A person to head a district is supposed to be well-versed in issues of administration and development. This is why when one talks about development, people think he/she is wasting their time because they are not able to understand that development needs team work, planning and expert input. It does not just happen by declaration. It has to be planned and worked for.

 

Madam, that DCs have so much power to run the Civil Service when they have never been civil servants in their lives, as this may be their first appointment, is an aspect I find disappointing in the report. It is very disheartening to see such things happening at a time the National Institute for Public Administration (NIPA) no longer offers the Government General Orders and Financial Regulations Course, which used to be conducted as an induction into the Civil Service.

 

Madam, the overall position is obviously that the Civil Service is weak because it is not providing the necessary administrative capacity to help this country progress. This is what is happening everywhere in districts and provincial headquarters. We are not saying that everybody is bad, but that the net impact is that we do not have the necessary capacity to help this country progress.

 

Madam, one other thing that surprises me is that everywhere in the public offices, you will find that people are studying. When you ask around, you are told that they are in college. I learnt that, in fact, the reason most of them are studying is that they are not qualified to occupy their positions.

 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: So, as a cover up, they want to study now.

 

Mr Jere: What a shame!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: There are many people who are qualified. So, why do we not recruit qualified and experienced people?

 

Mr Jere: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Let students go to college and complete their studies first before they can be employed.

 

Mr Jere: Correct!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam, the recruitments and appointments are not based on education or experience. So, we are busy trying to push in mediocrity. However, we want merit to guide us. It is for this reason that most successful democracies have selected people from selected institutions to hold certain positions. It is important that we have some people with the best brains in the Civil Service because they are the ones who run the Government. They are the ones who will give advice and guidance to the private sector. Therefore, they are supposed to be competent people.

 

Madam Speaker, another problem is that people are not being employed on merit. The entry qualifications and experience should clearly be outlined for any vacancy in the Civil Service. However, those in charge of appointments just look at the names of the applicants to decide who can and cannot be admitted into the Public Service. We cannot run a country like that. Our country is lagging behind other countries because of such practices. If you visited some of the countries we helped to liberate, you would find out that they are almost two years ahead. Therefore, we need to address some vices, such as regionalism. We cannot run a Public Service which has so much weight in terms of regionalism and tribalism.

 

Madam Speaker, we cannot continue on the path of creating districts when we are failing to run  the existing districts. Sesheke, Mwandi and Mulobezi were triplets. They were split up, but if you went to Mwandi and Mulobezi today, you would find that they are far from operating as independent districts because even the infrastructure for the district offices is very far from being completed.

 

Madam Speaker, the Government is so focused on saying that it is taking development closer to the people by creating districts. However, has a case study been undertaken to prove that this is the case? In its original form, Sesheke had 95,000 people. Today, Sesheke Central has 48,000 people. The balance is divided between Mwandi and Mulobezi. Does the fact that we have so many directors in public offices in Mulobezi and Mwandi mean that development is reaching the people? I do not know. To me, development does not seem to reach the people because we are still faced with problems of inadequacies that we were faced with in the past.

 

Madam Speaker, we also have to revisit the operations of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). There are schools in Sesheke Central whose roofs were blown off, maybe, three or more years ago. However, to date, they have not been attended to. If we are decentralising, why are we not creating sufficient capacity at provincial level to handle these matters because these are emergencies? If a roof was blown off today and we attended to it two to three years later, it means that the matter was not regarded as an emergency. By so doing, we would have disrupted the learning programme of school-going children. That is not addressing issues with urgency. So, we have to look at that as well.

 

Madam Speaker, the last point I want to make is on the issue of the district administration officials. According to the report of your Committee, the role of these people is just to make recommendations to the provincial headquarters. They have no authority to make decisions. Why do we have so many people seated in district offices to just make recommendations? How can they just make recommendations all the time? This a problem because people at district level should make decisions so that problems can be solved promptly. As things stand, district offices are just like a post office that just sends recommendations to provincial headquarters. They need to have authority to make decisions because we are unable to clarify the roles of public officers, such as the DCs and Mayors. If we defined that very clearly, these people would be able to make decisions.

 

Madam Speaker, with those few words, I support the report.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Report of the Committee on Cabinet Affairs on the Floor of this august House this afternoon. I will not take up too much time. I want to be as practical as possible in advising the Government against certain perceived ills that are being perpetrated by this administration and, obviously, by the Civil Service.

 

Madam Speaker, I will start by looking at the National Constitution. I will refer you to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. of 2016, under Part II, Section 8. This talks about the national values and principles. In particular, I would like to go to subsection (d), which talks about human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non-discrimination. Further, I would like to go to subsection (e), under the same section, which talks about good governance and integrity.

 

Madam, I have chosen this article in specific reference to your Committee’s report on page 22, paragraph 3, which states as follows:

 

“Some appointments, recruitments, promotions, transfers, confirmations and discharges were perceived to be associated with political interference, tribalism and nepotism.”

 

This is a very serious statement and should be taken with the seriousness that it deserves. According to the Constitution, good governance and integrity basically give the Government its persona. Having a government of integrity and good governance should translate into a better record in terms of human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non-discrimination.

 

Madam Speaker, we all know that the Government is the institution that is responsible for bringing about development. It organises society in order for people to interact socially, economically or otherwise. These interactions should, in the end, bring about social development but, in the process, the human being’s dignity must be protected to the maximum possible.

 

Madam Speaker, what we have seen under this Government is that the Civil Service is now disintegrating because of perceived, maybe, not even perceived, recruitment which is currently skewed towards certain regions ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

 

Mr Lufuma: ... while being against other regions. I will state the facts here. They will not please you, but you have to hear them. This must stop. Let me look at recruitment in the Civil Service at international level, the embassies. Most of the recruitments which have been made in embassies, since 2011 when I came to this Parliament, have been skewed towards certain regions. Recruitments in certain institutions, such as the Zambia Police Service, Zambia Army and Zambia Air Force (ZAF), are done quietly. The result is in-breeding.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Lufuma: You may question as much as you want, but I will talk.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma: I will talk.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!            

 

Mr Lufuma: The result is in-breeding and that is very dangerous for a country. As regards the “One Zambia, One Nation” motto, when there was recruitment in the Zambia Army, President Kaunda used to ensure that provinces recruited staff balance the representation of tribes in the army. That is essential. We managed to deter coups because there were counterchecks. However, if the Government will concentrate on recruiting people from one or two regions, it should not be surprising when conflicts start in the army and coups happen. This is why when he started recruiting, be it –

 

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the word “coups”

 

However, if I may continue –

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, balanced recruitment brought unity to this country. Even the motto “One Zambia, One Nation” was meaningful because everybody felt part and parcel of Zambia. However, when the Government starts recruiting privately and in-breeding prevails, that sense of unity gets lost.

 

Madam Speaker, at the moment, civil servants are being retired in the national interest. There is a long list of people from the North-Western Province, Western Province, Southern Province and Central Province who have been retired in the national interest at thirty years old.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

Mr Lufuma: That cannot be tolerated. No matter what you say, ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lufuma: ... that cannot be tolerated. This is one Zambia, one nation. We have to be part and parcel of this nation.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma: Let us stop it. It does not encourage unity. It does not consolidate unity. Let us not pay lip service to the motto “One Zambia, One nation” and do something else. People come to complain to us. We are representatives of the people ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma: ... and when they come to us to complain, we have to bring those complaints here, no matter how bitter they may seem. It is important that the Government ensures that recruitments are done fairly in accordance with this Constitution which talks about human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non-discrimination. When the Government does things which go against these principles, it breaks the fundamental law of the land, the National Constitution. As the professor said here, we are the leaves of a tree. Politicians are leaves. We will dry and fall off the tree very soon, but the trunk and roots will remain.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma: So, let us be careful as we implement Government policies in the Civil Service. Cabinet Office should look at this very seriously. It will make or break Zambia.

 

Madam, let me give an example. Recently, we have had periods of national mourning. The “One Zambia, One Nation” motto entails that songs played on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) be reflective of the seventy-three tribes that exist in Zambia. However, what did we get? Just songs from one side of the country ngwa, ngwa, ngwa, ngwa.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lufuma: No. It is unacceptable. How do people think that was national mourning? The Government calls it national mourning, but it becomes regional mourning when only songs from one region are played. We want to be part and parcel of the nation. Everybody wants to be part and parcel of the nation. Cabinet Office should ensure that national mourning is national. Songs played during national mourning on the ZNBC should be from all over the country because it is not only people from one region who can sing.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lufuma: People from all regions sing. When there are State functions, the Government should incorporate people from the Western Province, Ngoniland and Makishi from my area, among others. Let them participate. That is how President Kaunda used to keep Zambia as one nation ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma: ... and everybody was patriotic and nationalistic.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, it is incumbent upon Cabinet Office to ensure that unnecessary discrimination against people working in the Civil Service is stopped.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lufuma: Even recruitment in colleges is becoming skewed. The recruiters firstly look at the name of the person to be enrolled to ascertain where she/he hails from. When they see that the name is “Lufuma,” they will say, “Aah, this man comes from the North-Western Province. He will not be recruited.”

 

Mr Lubinda: Point of order!

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Lufuma: No!

 

Madam, when the Government looks at a certain name and concludes that he/she hails from a United Party for National Development (UPND) stronghold, then, he/she must be retired in the national interest. No. That should stop.

 

Hon. Government Member: That is what you do there.

 

Mr Lufuma: I am not in the Government. How do I do it?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, protect me from that ...

 

Mr Livune: The debs!

 

Mr Lufuma: ... debs who is –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: If the hon. Member for Kabompo stopped engaging the right side of the House in his debate, he would certainly receive my protection. Please, debate through the Chair and avoid responding to those who are making running commentaries.

 

Continue, hon. Member.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma: Most obliged, Madam Speaker. I am very thankful for that protection.

 

Madam Speaker, I know it does not sound sweet, but I am afraid we have to call a spade a spade. Our role, as hon. Members of Parliament, is to exercise the oversight function and we perform this function because we love Zambia. We point out these issues because we are patriotic. These practices are not good and should be stopped forthwith.

 

Madam Speaker, Cabinet Office is the apex of the Civil Service. When it sees these things which are contained in the report happening, it must take remedial action which should have been taken like yesterday. If Cabinet Office waits any longer to take remedial action, the end result will be skewed development. Since the Civil Service is responsible for development, we will start having inequitable development because certain decisions will not favour certain regions, and that cannot be acceptable.

 

Madam Speaker, for me, that was the major item that I wanted to bring to the attention of the Government and Cabinet Office, in particular. When you look at the discriminatory practices by the Civil Service, in terms of recruitment, how many of the Permanent Secretaries (PS) are from other regions? Look at Ambassadors and institutions of governance, such as the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ). Recruitments in the Civil Service and Cabinet Office should be balanced.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to share one or two things.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa): Madam Speaker, to begin with, I would like to appreciate the Hon. Mr Speaker’s new Committee on Cabinet Affairs, which has the overall objective to appreciate the composition, management and operations of the Cabinet Affairs portfolio. The Government has noted your Committee’s recommendations and it will work within the fiscal space available to achieve adequate capacity.

 

Madam Speaker, in his debate, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda Parliamentary Constituency placed importance on the institution of the Government and talked about loyalty of the Civil Service. The Government is in agreement with his observation. Respect must be reciprocal. It cannot come from one direction. Both hon. Ministers and the political leadership should respect the Civil Service and vice-versa.

 

Madam Speaker, on the issue of the frozen positions, the Government has taken note of the fact that your Committee visited the Southern Province, hence the figure that was quoted being cited from there. However, it would be interesting if that was made in comparison with other provinces because the issue of frozen positions is countrywide. It is not just restricted to one province.

 

Madam Speaker, as regards indiscipline, that is also a concern of the Government. Notwithstanding the challenges highlighted in the report, the Government is trying to address this through the Human Resource Management Committees. The House may wish to know that Cabinet Office has now completed revising its strategic plan which will look at the policy frameworks and guidance, the terms and conditions for public workers as well as the disciplinary codes and procedures for handling offences in the Public Service. At the moment, the Ministry of Justice is finalising the guidelines after which all the service commissions will issue these policy frameworks and guidelines so that they are given to the intended ministries, provinces and spending agencies (MPSAs) and so that, together, we can achieve an enhanced performance of delegated functions.

 

Madam Speaker, efforts are also underway to unfreeze the frozen positions. One of the things that the Government has done is to have two payrolls. Working within the available tight fiscal space, one is servicing the separatees and the other the current employees.

 

Madam Speaker, as regards the issue of protocol, members of the Executive are also hon. Members of Parliament and this issue is being addressed. Once the Revised State Functions Manual is approved, the issue of protocol will certainly be addressed.

 

Madam, there was an issue concerning people who are not highly educated occupying offices of District Commissioners (DCs). In the spirit of teamwork, the technocrats who are highly specialised, working with the DCs and the Mayors, should be able to deliver public service and social amenities to our communities.

 

Madam Speaker, indeed, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) is inadequately funded. That notwithstanding, the budget has been raised from the previous K13 million to about K54 million. Every year, the DMMU, working with various sectors and stakeholders, prepares the contingency plan based on the seasonal forecast issued by the Meteorological Department which informs and guides the response to imminent hazards, such as floods and drought epidemics. Therefore, within the funds that are made available, the DMMU responds to disasters depending on the location, magnitude and area in which they occur. At the moment, structures whose roofs were blown off are being looked into and the plan is to work on them province by province down to district by district.

 

Madam Speaker, you will recall that the DMMU wrote to all hon. Members of Parliament to re-confirm the data on damaged infrastructure in their respective constituencies. Very few of them responded. So, the only information we have is what has come through to the District Disaster Management Committees (DDMC). If hon. Members are still unhappy with the slow pace at which the DMMU is responding, they may wish to know that the DMMU comprises other sectors. It does not operate as a single unit. It involves the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of General Education, among others. Therefore, the other sector ministries are part of the unit and together, they are supposed to look at the issue of damaged infrastructure.

 

Madam Speaker, in general, the Executive has taken note of all the recommendations that were put forward by your Committee. The Government assurances will be prepared within the next sixty days in response to your Committee’s report.

 

With those few words, I thank you.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Madam Speaker, let me join the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President in commending your Committee for this report. In so doing, I would like to propose that in the mandate of this Committee, we ought to take caution that it does not end up being the Committee of all Committees of Parliament because Cabinet Office could easily be misunderstood. Unless we are clear about what we are looking at in Cabinet Office, we may end up looking at the whole of the Government. As you are well aware, Cabinet Office is the secretariat of the whole of the Government. Unless we clarify that, we will run into the trouble of having a report that delves into matters that are actually a mandate of the other twenty-three portfolio functions of Parliament.

 

Madam Speaker, just to illustrate my point, on page 8 of your report, there is a statement that the Office of the Vice-President falls under Cabinet Office. That is far from it. The Office of the Vice-President cannot and will never fall under Cabinet Office. The Office of the Vice-President is attached to the Presidency –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was emphasising the need for us to rationalise the mandate of your Committee. I was illustrating the fact that the statement that the Office of the Vice-President falls under Cabinet Office may not necessarily be accurate.

 

In addition to that, to bring service commissions, such as the Zambia Police Service, the Zambia Correctional Service Commission or the Local Government Service Commission, under the purview of this Committee may jeopardise the work of portfolio functions of the Committees that are responsible for portfolio ministries under which these services fall.

 

Madam Speaker, let me move quickly to another matter I noted in the report, that of the lamentation about money. Throughout the report, your Committee laments the lack of money and resources. All of us understand that the easiest scapegoat to give for poor performance is money, yet that might not necessarily be the case. Sometimes, it is system failures while other times, it is attitude.

 

Madam, there is no Government office that can ever say it has enough money. Nowhere in the world can you have an institution of public service which has more than it needs. Every government operates on the basis of ceilings. Even governments that have huge reserves and have much more money than they require for their performance in a year still operate on the basis of ceilings. To suggest to the Government to reconsider the idea of Cabinet Office being provided ceilings is the same as saying we should open the roof and allow people to apply for as much money as they want. However, that will put a strain on the Treasury. The Treasury puts ceilings because the resource envelop is what available within which all sectors are to operate.

 

Madam Speaker, a matter that caught my eye, and which is very close to the hearts of the people in the Government, is that of decentralisation. It is reported at page 8 of your Committee’s report that the lack of decentralisation is because of the disjointed arrangement between the Decentralisation Policy and the Constitution. Your Committee suggests that the Decentralisation Policy has more functions for local authorities than the Constitution and that is the reason we are not decentralising, but that is not true. Even the Constitution itself, at Article 147(2), states that the exclusive functions of local authorities are as at Annex C and as prescribed. This means that is not the limit of functions that local authorities must have. There are many more functions, including those that are provided for in the Decentralisation Policy.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to suggest to your Committee that the next time it looks at this matter, it should delve into the technical issues that are delaying decentralisation and not blame the delay on matters that will not change anything. The Constitution is very clear and this Government is very determined to implement the Decentralisation Policy. Only last week, the hon. Minister of Local Government explained to us the amount of work that is being carried out by this Executive to ensure that power is devolved to local authorities.

 

Madam Speaker, let me now turn to another matter which is the lack of harmonisation of conditions of service among the Judiciary, the Executive and the Legislature. I would like to inform Parliament that this is work in progress. Cabinet Office, the Ministry of Finance, the Office of the Vice-President, the Ministry of Justice and, particularly, the Presidency are working extremely hard to try to harmonise the conditions of service among the wings of the Government. May I remind the House that a few years ago, we had a Salary Review Commission led by Professor Mwanalushi. Its report is what is informing the process of harmonisation. It is the intention of the Government to ensure that the conditions of service in the three wings of the Government are harmonised to the extent possible. When that is done, the Executive will certainly have to inform the other two wings of the Government.

 

Madam, let me also hasten to mention that in the process of harmonising, the Executive is not leaving anyone behind. It consults with the Legislature and the Judiciary. As a result of that consultation, I hope that my colleagues will accept that this will take some time because we have to arrive at a consensus. At the moment, there are huge disparities and discrepancies. To harmonise would require the willingness of some people to give and to achieve and that will take a lot of work, lobbying and convincing. However, the good thing is that the Government has decided to bite the bullet. This is something that should have happened in 1991, but has not happened to date. However, although it will not be easy, this Government is determined to achieve harmonisation and I assure my colleagues that there is total political will to ensure that.

 

Madam Speaker, before I conclude, one other matter is on the issue of performance management. Your Committee and some of my colleagues who contributed to this debate before me lamented the weak performance evaluation in the Civil Service. His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, in recognising that decided that he if he was to sweep this system to ensure that it is responsive to the aspirations of the Zambian people, he must start from the top and not the bottom. I am sure that hon. Members and the citizens are aware of the fact that for the very first time in the history of Zambia, hon. Ministers are subjected to a performance review quarterly. All of us, as hon. Ministers, have to report to His Excellency the President on our performance and that of our ministries. That is done to introduce the system of performance review and performance evaluation.

 

Madam, at the moment, each hon. Minister in here is signing off performance contracts of all the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) in his/her ministry which are being deposited with the Cabinet Office. At the end of the year, we can, then, assess the performance of our PSs in relation to their contracts.

 

So, I would like to inform Parliament and, in particular, Members of this Committee that had they delved into this matter a bit deeper, they would have realised that, indeed, the Government is looking into performance management.

 

Finally, Madam Speaker, on the issues that my good friend, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabompo, spent more than ten minutes talking about, the appointments, discharges and his popular reference to the “One Zambia, One Nation” Motto, I notice that the report makes reference to them at page 22. It says:

 

 “Some appointments, recruitments, promotions, transfers, confirmations and discharges were perceived to be associated with political interference, tribalism and nepotism.”

 

Perceived −

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam, I ask myself what it is that is informing this perception. There are many factors that could be attributed to this. One of them is what some of us referred to before, the hate for ourselves. When we, the leaders, go out and always posture on a matter, it is bound to inform public perception. If every time the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabompo stands up to speak, he says there is discrimination in the manner that the Government appoints people and that people are being discharged on the basis of their tribe –

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Mr Lubinda: When you hear that kind of rumbling, then, you know ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Lubinda: ... that people will have that in their mind.

 

Mr Lufuma: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, resume your seat, hon. Member for Kabompo.

 

Mr Lubinda: People out there are hearing what we are saying and they are bound to be misled.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Mr Lubinda: They are bound to be misinformed.

 

Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I just want to say –

 

Mr Kamboni: Tell the truth, iwe!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I am trying to avoid getting a reaction from my left. However, I would like to guide you ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... that the hon. Member for Kabompo based his debate on the report ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... and, in particular, what you have just referred to ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... that there is a perception. So, perhaps, in your debate, you could deal with that perception and not the debate by the hon. Member for Kabompo because he was making reference to that which is in the report.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Minister, please, continue with his debate.

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, perception is informed by what we say about ourselves. I would like to appeal to all of us that when we talk about matters of national importance, such as this, we must base them on fact and not fiction.

 

Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Lubinda: Several times, we have asked if anybody can come to the House –

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, please, resume your seat. The hon. Minister is debating based on what he has just read, the perception which is in the report. I have just guided that he should not make reference to the debate by the hon. Member for Kabompo and he is doing just that.

 

Please, continue hon. Minister of Justice.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, my appeal is that when we make such statements, we back them up with facts and not just make blanket statements of this nature because this is what is feeding these wrong perceptions. We must bear in mind that when we start talking about tribalism in our country, it is all of us here who are accountable. If, indeed, there is any ministry which is inclined towards one tribe, somebody must be able to give us the statistics and say, “In this ministry, all these people are from one tribe.”

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: By the way, Madam Speaker, another matter that is very important is for us to start asking ourselves on what we are basing this identity of tribe so many years after the creation of this country and so many years of intermarriages. Is it simply because a person is called Banda that you will assume he comes from where the Bandas hail?

 

Madam Speaker, I know, like many other people out there, that these names have become totally meaningless in so as far as origin is concerned. There are people who are called names that originate from the Western Province, yet they actually have biological parents who hail from the Southern Province. For us to come to Parliament to use it to create and feed such wrong perceptions is extremely dangerous. What I would like to do is appeal to those who have evidence that there is tribalism being practiced by this Government to produce it.

 

Madam Speaker, let me make reference to another perception, and I am entitled to it. When you have a club of players whose membership is fifty-eight, with forty-one hailing from different places and their names being changanya, that is, mixed, while the other seventeen happen to have names whose origin is from one region, then, you select the leadership from the seventeen, ...

 

Dr Malama: From that!

 

Mr Lubinda: ... you have no moral right to stand up and claim that others are tribalists.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: If there are fifty-eight players and forty-one are from different places while seventeen are from one place, you would expect that the leadership of the fifty-eight would be from the forty-one, not from the seventeen.

 

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: If leadership is from the seventeen, then, please, do not stand up to call others tribalists because you have demonstrated the waste form of tribalism.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I would like to end by saying that this is an important report, but may we, please, look at the mandate of your Committee so that we do not allow free ranging debate next time.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the hon. Members of your Committee who diligently and strictly worked within the terms of reference.

 

Mr Kamboni: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Imakando: Allow me to thank the seconder of the Motion and all the hon. Members who vigorously and frankly debated and supported this report.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the Executive for its response ...

 

Mr Kamboni: Except for zayelo.

 

Dr Imakando: ... which we shall track.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Quality!

 

There is leadership there.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, LANDS AND NATURAL RESOURCES

 

(Debate resumed)

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Speaker, I would want to just quickly conclude the notes that I put into this report yesterday by quoting page 31 of the report, where it says:

 

‘“While the Decentralisation Policy had placed more autonomy at district level, to date, the engagement of the districts had largely been focused on municipalities. Rather unfortunately, the district and ward boundaries did not always overlap easily with Chiefdom boundaries, further complicating co-ordination of service provision in Chiefdoms.’ The Local Government Act Cap 281 of the Laws of Zambia as well as the Urban and Regional Planning Act No. 3 of 2015.’’’

 

Madam Speaker, this has become a source of conflict across the country when the districts are being demarcated. As rightly observed by your Committee, you will find that the consultation with the major stakeholders, who are the traditional rulers, never really takes place. I would want to actually tell the Patriotic Front (PF) Government that it is imperative and actually out of mutual respect to consult traditional leaders when demarcating districts and cutting through the chiefdoms so as to harmonise the districts and the traditional boundaries. Whether we like it or not, this is also affecting the political dispensation of this country. When the districts cut through these chiefdoms, it makes the traditional rulers very skeptical and leads them to wonder what the Government of the day is actually up to. Such unnecessary conflict is the reason that the upcoming National Land Policy is facing so much resistance.

 

Madam Speaker, maybe, on that score, I would want to urge the PF Government to allow the dual system to run as it has been running. The PF Government should allow traditional rulers to do their part and also the conventional way of titling to also stand on its own because both sides of governance of land are very important. Just as the titling part may have its weaknesses, there could also be weaknesses with the traditional law, but I always believe that every cloud has a silver lining. Every system has its strong points and I believe the traditional leadership can also sustain the land management.

 

With those points, I would like to support your report.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Munkonge (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Report of your Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources. As I start, I would like to pass my condolences to the family of the late freedom fighter and son of Zambia, Mr Daniel Munkombwe, may his soul rest in eternal peace. May I also take this opportunity to pass my condolences to the families of the people who have died in the mishap on the Copperbelt.

 

Madam Speaker, I will start with the point on agriculture. Our policies in the agriculture sector should be as realistic as those in the mining sector. I have never heard anyone say that there is copper in Central Province and gone ahead to mine it because we know that the copper mines are in the North-Western Province and Copperbelt Province. So, that realistic approach should also be taken when it comes to implementing policies in the agriculture sector.

 

Madam Speaker, traditionally, and I use the word loosely, we have been restocking animals in areas where they traditionally rear animals. When the animals die of diseases, they are restocked. Without going into the tribal aspect of it, people from the Northern Province are considered incapable of rearing cattle. What I do not know is if that translates into the fact that they cannot be taught how to rear cattle. Why, then, would we emphasise cattle-restocking in drought-prone or arid areas leaving out areas that receive good rainfall and have perennial rivers, which would make it easier to rear cattle?

 

Madam, according to this report, most of the issues with regard to supporting livestock have not yet been fully implemented in the northern part of Zambia. For example, the diary school or plant that the Government wants to set up in Mpika has not been completed. Why, then, should we make our farming more difficult by insisting on taking these things to these places?

 

Madam, the other aspect of the Agriculture Policy that I am worried about is that it traps peasant farmers in the position of peasantry and their role is defined as such. What are we doing to ensure that some of them graduate to commercial farmers and become rich farmers? The way it has been designed can be likened to a disabled person who has been relegated to someone who can never run, and that approach worries me. Therefore, I would like to see an Agriculture Policy that, firstly, reflects the need to change where we carry out most of our farming activities to reflect the most productive areas and, secondly, it should revolve around teaching the locals and giving them the power to participate and, therefrom, have meaningful lives.

 

Madam Speaker, let me move to the issue of natural resources. Obviously, the field of natural resources is very difficult, but much as we appreciate that we have competing needs, we need to understand where the future lies. I am concerned that issues of water management have not been taken seriously. As such, we are taking our water supply for granted. Therefore, traditionally, the waters of the Zambezi River will reach the Indian Ocean freely and, thereafter, we will have a drought before us. Every year, we have the complaint of drought. What are we doing about trapping this water and managing it? 30 to 40 per cent of water bodies are in the north, but we do not seem to use this water to the benefit of the country either in hydro electric power generation or even in farming to ensure crops are grown all year round. Why are we ignoring this?

 

Madam, the other aspect I would like to talk about is the importance of forestry. Among the northerners, there is a traditional practice called Chitemene which, in itself, would not be a problem if trees were being replanted. It is something that should be done alongside planting trees. However, we only look round when we realise that trees have been cut down and the winds can gain a certain speed that can damage schools. Why are we not proactive? The future will come. Surprisingly, for a province that has so much land, we have a shortage of wood in the northern part of Zambia. Sometimes, even the wood used to build houses comes from the Copperbelt. In view of these challenges, why are we not attaching some importance to these sort of things for the future?  For example, if the mukula tree is able to generate income, why are we not talking about having forestry purely for mukula trees that can be monitored and given value? These trees may not be harvested within our lifetime, but we should be able to leave a gift for those who are coming behind us.

 

Madam Speaker, I will now talk about my third and final point which is a bit more contentious, the issue of land. Sometimes, I worry that we do not seem to appreciate how important land is to us and how it should be used to empower us, as Zambians.

 

With regard to the English Throne, Madam Speaker, I have observed that people can watch a royal wedding the whole day, but shun their own local traditions. They even go further to speak ill of our traditional leaders and customs, yet watch a royal wedding the whole day.

 

Mr Mukosa: Yes.

 

Mr Munkonge: They can insult a chief freely, yet respect the Queen of England.

 

Mr Mukosa: Can you imagine!

 

Mr Munkonge: Sometimes, it boggles my mind that some even have the audacity to challenge our traditions, but appreciate Western traditions. Even more baffling is that this behaviour is exhibited by people who are educated. Who will protect our traditions then?

 

Madam Speaker, tribalism can easily creep in if we do not manage land issues properly. There are provinces that have been cited for managing their land issues well, but when one conducts a research, he/she will discover that part of the outcome of their managing their land well is that their own people no longer build their dream homes in their traditional land. Instead, they build them in Lusaka Province, Copperbelt Province and Central Province. Meanwhile, they claim to have managed their land well. Why?

 

However, Madam, we must pick the good from each scenario to enable us to handle the land issue properly. Realising that our chiefs have varying backgrounds and attained varying levels of education, some of them must be protected from themselves. We need to explain this to the chiefs.

 

Madam Speaker, personally, I think that the throne must be protected from the individual because if we are not careful, we will have a position where future chiefs will have no land. Then, they will become 100 per cent dependant on the Government, which I am personally against.

 

Madam, essentially, chiefs sit on wealth. This means that, for example, Chief Kapijimpanga should be one of the richest chiefs in Zambia purely because a multibillion dollar mine sits in his area. Unfortunately, Chief Kapijimpanga is not one of the richest chiefs because of the fate we have found ourselves in. We need to protect chiefs. When one becomes a chief, he should find wealth that comes with chieftaincy and not poverty.

 

Madam Speaker, the failure to interact with chiefs and resolve issues to see the bigger picture will see the land issue in its current form not being resolved because it is not addressing the real issues. The real issue is: How will we protect the Zambians?

 

Madam, I have my fears about land management that come from a personal experience. I have been a victim of land fraud in which I held title to a piece of land that other people also held title to. I have also been a victim of having title deeds issued from Lusaka pertaining to land in Kasama over which the Kasama Council was not aware. These are inherent difficulties and shortcomings in individuals and the system that need to be addressed first before we can actually roll out the land issue.

 

Madam Speaker, the other fear that I have over the land issue in Zambia, in its current form, is that, in future, foreigners will be more powerful than Zambians.

 

Mr Nkombo: Even now, they are powerful.

 

Mr Munkonge: At the moment, they are more powerful because of the money they possess. In future, they will be more powerful because they will have bought all the land and that will be a sad state of affairs. Therefore, we must reinforce our laws on land to ensure that foreigners partner with Zambians in the ownership of land so that, at the end of the day, land belongs to Zambians.

 

Madam, we should also protect those who cannot afford lawyers to represent them in court. In the rural areas, the only way to protect an ordinary person is by tying land to his/her chief, headman or the people. This way, when anybody wants to take advantage of them, even if he came with a lot of money, perhaps, the money would benefit more people because he would need to deal with everyone as opposed to a few individuals who may not have the interest of the others at heart.

 

Madam, I will touch this particular issue which I said would come out of the issue on land issue only because it raises another fear, that is, the issue of tribalism. Again, if we are not careful on how we design our National Land Policy, we may entrench tribalism in it. In other words, it will be difficult for a person from the Northern Province to get land in the North-Western Province. Those are the things to which we should apply ourselves.

 

I get disheartened when a learned person gives half-baked information on issues such as retirement in the national interest. Personally, it is something that should be looked at from the point of view of whether it should be kept or withdrawn. If it serves a purpose, let us keep it and use it properly. However, if it does not serve a purpose, let us do away with it because to use it with undertones of tribalism would be retrogressive.

 

Madam, I have seen that there is a tendency to give one-sided figures. It is important that a person who comes before us applies himself/herself in order not to leave us in a state of panic. We have seen learned hon. Members who can dig up data. Therefore, if somebody told me that retiring people in the national interest has only applied to a particular group of people, that would be fine because, then, there would be a problem highlighted. However, if one could come up with complete data of the tribes and broke them down, then, we would be left in a state of less panic. The selective use of information leaves me worried because it would affect issues which can be resolved on a level-minded basis. Matters such as land and natural resource issues need to be dealt with level-mindedly.

 

For instance, Madam, if there are many water bodies in the Luapula Province, we cannot say that we will find water bodies in the Southern Province that can compete. It would simply mean that water-driven projects be invested in Luapula Province.

 

Madam, not to belabour the issue, I support the report and I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing the people of Mwembezhi to add a word to the debate on the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources.

 

Madam, first and foremost, I would like to acknowledge the statement on livestock made by your Committee that if we are to carry out diligent work as regards livestock in Zambia, it would help us a lot economically.

 

Madam, in acknowledging the statement by your Committee, I would like to pass my condolences to the families of the people who perished during the collapse of the Black Mountain in Kitwe and state that had they been working with livestock, calamities such as that one would be avoided because livestock offers a source of steady income.

 

Madam, when we talk about livestock in Zambia, we do not take much interest in trying to develop it.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

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The House adjourned at 1911 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 21^st June, 2006.

 

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