Thursday 15^th March, 2018

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SEPAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTEM

 

PRAYER

 

_________

 

ANNOUCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Integrated Action for Rural Development (I-A4RD) a Zambian Non-Governmental Organisation which is a social anti-poverty public benefit enterprise, will hold a half day familiarisation meeting to appraise hon. Members on its vision of how poverty can be tracked and alleviated, especially in the rural areas. This meeting is aimed at engaging hon. Members who are instigators and catalysts of poverty alleviation and drivers of development to input and buy into their concept. The meeting will be held in the Auditorium, at Parliament Buildings, on Monday, 19^th March, 2018, at 09:30 hours.

 

I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to attend this very important meeting.

 

I thank you.

 

_________

 

RULINGS BY MR SPEAKER

 

ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR G G NKOMBO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MAZABUKA CENTRAL PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST DR J CHANDA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR BWANA MKUBWA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY ON TEUSDAY 20^TH FEBRUARY, 2018

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Tuesday, 20^th February, 2018, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 105 on the Order Paper, and the Hon Member of Parliament for Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency, Mr K S Michelo, MP, was on the floor, Mr G G Nkombo, Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central Parliamentary Constituency raised a Point of Order.

 

In the Point of Order, Mr Nkombo, MP, referred to an article published in the Zambia Daily Mail of Tuesday, 20^th February, 2018 and a video clip of Dr J Chanda, MP, addressing the Patriotic Front (PF) Interactive Forum on the National Health Insurance Bill, which was being considered by the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services. In addition, Mr Nkombo, MP, made reference to a letter from the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) addressed to all Members of Parliament regarding the National Health Insurance Bill.

 

Mr Nkombo, MP, specifically asked whether Dr Chanda, MP, who was a member of the Committee considering the Bill, was in order to campaign for the Bill, when he knew very well that the proceedings of the Committee were confidential until the Committee had tabled its report in the House.

 

Hon. Members, on the same day, my office received a letter of complaint from the Zambia, Federation of Employers (ZFEs) relating to the same matter.  The federation expressed shock that soon after it made its submission to the Committee considering the Bill, Dr Chanda, MP, went to the media to campaign for the Bill before its report was tabled in the House, and yet he was a member of the Committee considering the Bill.

 

In my immediate response to the point of order, I reserved the ruling to enable me as usual, study the matter and render an informed ruling, which I do now.

 

Hon. Members, the point of order relates to a Member of Parliament publicly commenting on a matter under consideration by a Committee to which he or she is a member before the report of the Committee is tabled.

 

The National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia prohibits Members of Parliament from disclosing information submitted to the Assembly before it has been laid on the table of the House.

 

In this regard, section 25 (c) provides as follows:

 

“25 (c) Any person who publishes, save by general or special leave of the Assembly, any paper, report or other document prepared expressly for submission to the Assembly before the same has been laid on the Table of the Assembly shall be guilty of an offence.”

 

Also, Chapter 10 of the National Assembly Members’ Handbook, 2006, at page 51 in paragraph “o” provides:

 

“All Committee reports are confidential until the Report is tabled.”

 

In addition, M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, the learned authors of Practice and Procedure in Parliament, Seventh Edition, (New Delhi, Lok Sabha, 2016) state at page 308 as follows:

 

“It is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to publish any part of the proceedings or evidence given before, or any document presented to a Parliamentary Committee before such proceedings, or evidence or documents have been reported to the House.”

 

Further, at page 309 of the same book, the Committee of Privileges of Lok Sabha is reported to have re-stated this position in the Indian case of Sundaraya, where it was stated as follows:

 

“It is in accordance with the law and practice of the privileges of Parliament that while a Committee of Parliament is holding its sittings from day to day, its proceedings should not be published nor any documents or papers which may have been presented to the Committee or the conclusions to which it may have arrived at as referred to in the Press.

 

It is highly desirable that no person, including a Member of Parliament or Press, should, without proper verification, make or publish a statement or comment about any matter which is under consideration or investigation by a Committee of Parliament.” 

 

All the foregoing authorities point to the fact that, prior to a report being tabled in the House, a member cannot divulge information that he or she receives by virtue of being a member of the Committee or indeed, comment publicly on a matter before a Committee without obtaining permission from the House.

 

Hon. Members, it is common knowledge that the Constitution under Article 89, now requires the National Assembly to facilitate public involvement in the legislative process. It is also a well known fact that the National Assembly does this by referring Bills to Committees after the First Reading Stage, and inviting the public to submit on them. In addition, Bills are uploaded on the National Assembly website. More importantly, the proceedings of the Committees considering Bills are broadcast on both Parliament Radio and now, Parliament Television. All these measures ensure the public is kept informed of the progress of the Bills before the House.

 

Hon. Members, I am aware that as the people’s representatives, Members of Parliament have a role to sensitise their constituents and the public at large on the contents and ramifications of Bills that come before the House. However, the timing at which this is done is key. This is particularly so for members sitting on the Committee considering a particular Bill.

 

As you are well aware, before a Bill is brought to the House, it is published in the Government Gazette. That makes it a public document and members can, at that time, freely sensitise the public on its content. However, once a Bill has been referred to a Committee in which you are a member, you cannot, without leave of the House, divulge information on the Committee’s deliberations on the Bill to the public or publicly comment on a Bill being considered by a Committee before its report is tabled in the House.  In this regard, a member of a Committee who, while the Committee is considering a matter, goes to a public forum to discuss it runs a risk of falling foul of section 25 (c) referred to above.

 

In the instance case, the National Health Insurance Bill was published in the Government Gazette on Wednesday, 6^th December, 2017, through Gazette Notice No. 863 of 2017.  On Friday 8^th December, 2017, the Bill was read the first time and referred to the Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Services for consideration. The Committee considered the Bill from 9^th to 16^th February, 2018. Thus, the Committee adopted its report on Friday, 16^th February, 2018. The report was tabled in the House on Monday, 26^th February, 2016.

 

Hon. Members, looking at this timeline, it is evident that Dr J. Chanda, MP, had sufficient time to sensitise the public on the Bill before the Committee commenced its sittings. This is because the Bill was gazetted as pointed out on 6^th December, 2017, and the Committee only began sitting on 9^th February, 2018, which is exactly two months later. It is further evident that by the time the hon. Member addressed the Patriotic Front (PF) Interactive Forum on Monday, 19^th February, 2018, the Committee had concluded receiving evidence from witnesses and had adopted its report. He, in this regard, went to a public forum to canvass support for the Bill, knowing very well that the Committee did not support the Bill and had recommended that it be deferred for further consultations.

 

 

Hon. Members, I have carefully reviewed the documents and the video in the flash disk laid on the Table by Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP. The video clip clearly shows Dr Chanda, MP, addressing a Patriotic Front (PF) Forum and urging the attendees to support the National Health Insurance Bill. As a member of the Committee that considered the Bill, it was most inappropriate for him to go to a public forum to solicit support for the Bill, after all the witnesses that had been invited by the Committee had made their submissions and before the Committee’s report was tabled. Dr Chanda, MP, ought to know that commenting on the proceedings of a Committee before the report is tabled is an offence under Section 25 (c) of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act.

 

Hon. Members, in view of the foregoing, I find Dr Chanda, MP, in breach of parliamentary privilege and in contempt of the House. While this is an offence under Section 25 (c) of the Act and a serious breach of the rules of the House, I recognise the fact that Dr J. Chanda, MP, is a first offender. In this regard, I have decided to exercise leniency …

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: … and admonish him in accordance with Section 28 (1) (b) of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act.

 

I now order you, Dr J. Chanda, MP, to stand in your place. 

 

Dr Chanda rose.

 

Mrs Chonya: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Dr J. Chanda, MP, your conduct of addressing a public forum on a Bill before the House, while you were a Member of the Committee considering the Bill and before the Committee’s report could be tabled in the House was a breach of parliamentary privileges and a contempt of the House. As a member of the Committee that considered the Bill, you had full knowledge of the stakeholders’ and Committee’s sentiments on the Bill. It was, therefore, extremely inappropriate for you to address a public forum to solicit support for the Bill. The House is, in this regard, extremely disappointed with your conduct.  It is hoped that, in future, you will endeavour to abide by the rules of this House and avoid such conduct. Please, bear in mind that a repetition of such conduct will in future attract a stiffer penalty.

 

You may take your seat.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

ON THE POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. J. KAPATA, MP, MINISTER OF LANDS AND NATURAL RESOURCES, AGAINST DR. C. KAMBWILI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR ROAN PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, ON AN ALLEGATION THAT DR KAMBWILI, MP, HAD BEEN GOING TO RADIO STATIONS AND CALLING HER A THIEF WHO HAD STOLEN MONEY THROUGH THE SALE OF MUKULA TREE

 

Hon. Members will recall that on Tuesday, 3^rd October, 2017, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 41 and the hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency, Mr K. Michelo, MP, was asking a follow-up question, Hon. J. Kapata, MP, Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, raised a point of order alleging that Dr C. Kambwili, MP, had accused her of stealing money through the sale of Mukula tree and had been calling her a thief on radio stations and in other print and electronic media.

 

In my immediate remarks, I reserved my ruling on the matter.  I later referred the matter to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services for consideration.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Let us have some order, please!

 

The Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services met to consider the matter. In line with parliamentary practice and procedure, and in accordance with the rules of natural justice, both the hon. Minister and Dr C. Kambwili, MP, appeared before the Committee to make their oral submissions on the matter.

 

In submitting to the Committee, the hon. Minister re-stated her complaint as contained in the point of order, that is, she referred to the alleged utterances by Dr Kambwili, MP, reported in the print and electronic media where he alleged that Hon. Kapata, MP, was a thief.  She asked the Committee to request Dr Kambwili, MP, to provide evidence that she indeed was a thief and demanded for an apology from Dr Kambwili, MP.

 

Further, Hon. Kapata, MP, informed the Committee that she was in the process of commencing legal proceedings against Dr Kambwili, MP, over the matter. In that regard, she submitted that her lawyers had since written to Dr Kambwili, MP, requesting him to retract his defamatory statements against the hon. Minister within seven days. She submitted that since Dr Kambwili, MP, had not responded to the letter, her lawyers would proceed to commence court action against him.

 

On the other hand, Dr Kambwili, MP, when asked to respond to the hon. Minister’s complaint, submitted that he would not comment on what he had said on radio stations, as he was not bound to account for what he said outside the House, to the House. He added that if Hon. Kapata MP was injured by what he had said, she was at liberty to seek redress in the courts of law.

 

The Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services deliberated on the matter and made the following findings:

 

1. that the hon. Minister’s complaint was based on statements allegedly made by Dr Kambwili, MP, against her on radio stations and in other print and electronic media;

 

1. that Hon. Kapata, MP, was in the process of commencing legal proceedings over the matter against Dr Kambwili, MP; and

 

1. that the statements complained of were not made in the House.

 

In view of these findings, the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services was in agreement that the alleged statements by Dr Kambwili, MP, against Hon. Kapata, MP, were made outside the House and in the political arena. Therefore, the Committee resolved that it could not dwell on the matter as it fell outside its jurisdiction. The Committee accordingly advised Hon. Kapata, MP, to seek other avenues of redress available to her if she so wished and I uphold the decision of the Committee.

 

ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY DR M. MALAMA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KANCHIBIYA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY AGAINST PARLIAMENT ON TUESDAY, 27^TH FEBRUARY, 2018

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Tuesday, 20^th February, 2018, after the hon. Minister of Finance had just rendered a Ministerial Statement on the alleged collapse of the Central Computing System at the Ministry of Finance and the Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central Parliamentary Constituency, Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP, was on the floor, Dr Malama, MP, raised the following Point of Order:

 

“Mr Speaker, when the hon. Member, the Whip of the Opposition, was on the Floor, I saw on his photo, colours which are very partisan. Is Parliament in order to allow that?”

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, the Point of Order refers to the attire that Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP, is wearing in the photo that appears on the display unit whenever he rises to speak and essentially asks whether Parliament is in order to allow the exhibition of what he termed, “political colours”.

 

In my response, I reserved my ruling. I have studied the matter and will now render my ruling.

I wish to begin by guiding the House that a Point of Order cannot be raised against the House. This is because the purpose of a Point of Order is to draw the Speaker’s attention to a breach of the rules of the House by a Member. In this regard, the Point of Order was flawed and ordinarily I would not have entertained it.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: However, since it raises a novel issue, I have decided to seize this opportunity to give the House some guidance on the matter raised in the Point of Order.

 

Hon. Members, as you are well aware, it is prohibited for any person to wear or display any form of political party regalia on the precincts of Parliament.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: This is because the precincts of Parliament are not a place for political party activities or campaigns, but are a place where you the people’s representatives converge to conduct the affairs of the entire nation. Further, allowing party regalia in the House can potentially result in unnecessary political conflict that will divert the attention of the House from serious business that it requires to transact.

 

Having said that, I wish to state that wearing attire, whose colour is associated with a political party, but which does not bear any political party symbol or reference to that party does not amount to wearing party regalia.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I carefully examined the photo that displays on the screen whenever Mr G. G. Nkombo, MP, speaks through his microphone. My examination revealed that while the shirt, indeed, appears to be in the United Party for National Development’s (UPND) signature colour; red, it does not bear any party symbol or indeed any reference to the UPND. In this regard, it is admissible. I, however, noted that the attire Hon G. G. Nkombo wore in the photo was quite informal. While there is no rule barring this, yet, I wish to urge Hon Members to, as far as possible, submit and substitute photos that conform to the official dress code provided in Standing Order 165 whenever they are submitting photos for official use.

 

I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR M MUTELO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MITETE PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY AGAINST HON. D. MABUMBA MP, MINISTER OF GENERAL EDUCATION ON TUESDAY, 27^TH FEBRUARY, 2018

 

Hon. Members will recall that on Tuesday, 27^th February, 2018, when the House was considering Urgent Question for Oral Answer No. 176 and Mr G. K. Mwamba, Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency, was speaking, Mr M. Mutelo, Member of Parliament for Mitete Parliamentary Constituency, raised a Point of Order. In the Point of Order, Mr M. Mutelo, MP, asked whether the word “fake” used by the hon. Minister of General Education, in response to his question, was parliamentary.

 

In my immediate response, I reserved my ruling. I have studied the matter and now render my ruling.

 

Hon. Members, the National Assembly of Zambia: Unparliamentary Language booklet contains a list of unparliamentary words and, at page 1, defines unparliamentary language as follows:

 

“unparliamentary language may, therefore, be regarded as encompassing “offensive words” under the standing Orders, which also include words which, while not strictly excluded by the Standing Orders, are inappropriate for use in a Parliament.”

 

The booklet, at page 1, further gives guidance on how a word, which is ordinarily unparliamentary may be parliamentary because of the context in which it is used. It states as follows:

 

“Unparliamentary language must be considered in context; words which may be regarded as objectionable under some circumstances may be acceptable under other conditions.”

 

Hon. Members, you may wish to note that the word “fake” has been listed on page 9 of the booklet as one of the unparliamentary words.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Therefore, in light of the authorities cited, the issue to determine is whether the context in which the hon. Minister of General Education used the word was acceptable.

 

Accordingly, hon. Members, my office conducted a review of the verbatim record of Tuesday, 27^th February, 2018, in order to ascertain whether or not the hon. Minister of General Education used the word ‘fake’ and to determine the context in which it was used. An excerpt of the relevant debate is as follows:

 

“Hon Minister: At a particular time, I will come and render a ministerial statement in detail to clarify that there is no child, who would be required to go and repeat Grade 6. That is fake news.”

 

As shown in the verbatim, hon. Members may wish to note that the hon. Minister used the word not as a single word, but rather, as a phrase ‘fake news.’

 

Hon. Members, the online Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary defines ‘fake news’ as follows:

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: It says:

 

“False stories that appear to be news, spread on the internet or using other media, usually created to influence political views or as a joke.”

 

The hon. Minister of General Education used the phrase ‘fake news’ in relation to the hon. Member for Mitete’s reference to a Government policy in which pupils, who failed Grade 10, would be sent back to Grade 6. In this regard, the hon. Minister was saying that the information which was circulating in the media was false and with the intent to discredit the Government.  Clearly, the use of the term conforms to the definition in the Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary, which I cited above. In this regard, the context in which the hon. Minister used the word ‘fake’ was not unparliamentary …

 

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: … and therefore, he was in order to use the phrase.

 

I Thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

_____

 

MOTION

 

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS 20 (1) AND (2), 21, 22 (1), 26 AND 32

 

The Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business (Mr Chungu): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 20 (1) and (2), 21, 22 (1), 26 and 32 be suspended to enable the House sit from 0900 hours and to hear to His Excellency the President’s Address until Business has been concluded on Friday, 16^th March, 2018 and also to omit the Vice-President’s Question Time from the Order Paper.

 

Sir, as the House is aware, Article 86 (1) has read together with Article 9 (2) of the Constitution of Zambia and Standing Order 11, require His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, to attend Parliament and to report to the House on progress made in the Application of the National Values and Principles contained in the Republican Constitution. In this regard the His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, has decided to attend and address the House and the nation at large tomorrow Friday, 16^th March, 2018.

 

Mr Speaker, hon. Members may further wish to note that Standing Order 20 (1) provides that the House shall sit from 0900 hours to 1300 hours on Fridays and for suspension of Business at 1040 hours, while Standing Orders 21 and 22 (1) provide for the procedures for automatic adjournment. On the other hand, Standing Orders 26 provides for the daily routine of Business of the House, while Standing Order 32 provides for Her Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time.

 

Sir, it is in this regard that I move this Motion to suspend the aforementioned Standing Orders in order to facilitate the special address by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, in accordance with the aforementioned provisions of the Constitution.

 

Mr Speaker, this is a straightforward and non-controversial Motion and I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to support it.

 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move   

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chungu: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank all hon. Members for the unanimous support.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

______

 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

RECENT WEATHER PATTERNS

 

The Minister of Transport and Communication (Mr Mushimba): Mr Speaker, I wish to express my sincere gratitude for the opportunity that has been accorded to me to give this ministerial statement on the weather patterns that have caused prolonged dry conditions and floods in some parts of the country. I felt duty bound to update the nation on the weather patterns for the 2017/18 Season and provide the current and future expected patterns since they affect the livelihoods of many of our people across the country.

 

Sir, you may recall that on 5^th October, 2017, I officially issued the 2017/18 Rainfall Season Forecast. Generally, the forecast indicated that Zambia was going to experience normal to above normal rainfall. The advisory information issued with the seasonal forecast included the possible occurrence of flash floods and floods, infrastructure damage, occurrence of water borne and diarrhoea diseases such as cholera as well as the occurrence of army worms.

 

Mr Speaker, whereas the rest of the country received rainfall on time in the early weeks of November, 2017, the 2017/2018 rainfall season commenced late over the Western, Southern and Lusaka Provinces, which only received rainfall in the first week of December, 2017. The beginning of December was characterised by good rainfall across the country until 24^th December, 2017, when the southern half of the country started experiencing dry conditions.

 

Sir, the 2017/2018 season has seen poor rainfall distribution, particularly over the southern half of the country. The most affected provinces have been the Western, Southern, Lusaka and Central Provinces, including the southern districts of the Eastern Province. The weather patterns in these areas were characterised by dry spells and heat stress for the most part of January, 2018. This was followed by heavy rainfall and flash floods in February, 2018.

 

Mr Speaker, the dry spells were caused by the consecutive occurrence of tropical cyclones over the western Indian Ocean and atmospheric high pressure systems over Botswana and Zimbabwe. Although not a new occurrence in Zambia, the 2017/2018 dry spell lasted longer than usual, resulting in soil moisture stress over the southern half of Zambia.

 

Mr Speaker, the heavy rainfall was as a result of the clearing of the tropical cyclones and atmospheric high pressure system over Botswana and Zimbabwe. This allowed the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ), which is the main rain bearing system over Zambia, to establish over the southern borders of Zambia. In addition, a deep low pressure system developed over the eastern border of Angola associated with the ITCZ, which progressed south-eastwards into Zambia, resulting in the heavy downpour from 1^st to 12 February, 2018.

 

Mr Speaker, a temporary reduction in rainfall was recorded from 13^th to 15^th February, 2018. For the rest of February, 2018, the whole country received normal to above normal rainfall. With these occurrences accumulated over the rainy season, the average rainfall recorded has gone back to normal, apart from areas around Katete, Petauke, Sinda and Chadiza, which are still experiencing some dry spells.

 

Mr Speaker, this situation has greatly improved the water table and soil moisture around the country, leading to an increase in water levels in our reservoirs and water bodies. This reduces the risk of low water for power generation and irrigation in the country.

 

Mr Speaker, I am encouraging members of the public to contact the Zambia Meteorological Department (ZMD) under the ministry for information on weather patterns by visiting the department’s Facebook page, website and indeed submitting email addresses to the department so that they could be included in the daily distribution of the crop bulletin for updates on the weather and rainfall forecast in the country.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication.

 

Mrs Jere (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that clear statement that he has given. As the hon. Minister was talking about the weather pattern in the country, he also mentioned irrigation and the ability for our reservoirs to retain rain water as a result of the good rains that we have just had in the country.

 

However, are there any plans to ensure that the country and Lumezi Constituency in particular harvests as much rain water as possible? At the moment, all the rain water in Lumezi Constituency has gone into the Luangwa River and off to the Indian Ocean. We only have one dam in the whole constituency. Therefore, we do not appreciate the fact that we have had good rains and the rain water will be harvested.

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, in my ministerial statement, I restricted myself to the rainfall forecast that we presented in October, 2017 and the crop bulletins that we have been giving periodically through the ZMD. The issue of harvesting rain water falls outside the confines of my ministry. That is an issue for the Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection and I have heard some remarks in the past from the hon. Minister and the ministry in terms of the initiatives they have on water harvesting. Therefore, I encourage the hon. Member to engage that ministry for that particular question.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me …

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Lubinda interjected.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am just an hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Lubinda.

 

Sir, I rise on a very serious point of order, which should have come contemporaneously as the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House was submitting his quest for this august House to support the lifting of particular Standing Orders to allow for a constitutional provision that will see us sit here to be addressed by President Edgar Lungu tomorrow, Friday at 0900 hours.

 

Sir, before we upgraded the conference system in the Chamber, the rules of the House dictated that hon. Members who wished to debate or ask a question must be on their feet. After we changed the system, we now just have to press the gadget in front of us when we want to speak. I do know of anywhere in the most recent past where it is written that an adjournment Motion or a Motion to lift Standing Orders shall not be debated, no matter how straightforward that Motion may be.

 

Mr Speaker, I am aware that we went through a technological crisis at the beginning of this afternoon’s meeting. However, I recall that when the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House finished his submission, three hon. Members of the United Party for National Development (UPND), including myself, indicated desire to debate the Motion. In order to erase doubt in my mind, I would be comfortable if there was a malfunction in the conference system. However, my microphone clearly showed red, this red colour that everyone is now seeing. This showed that I was desirous of putting in a word or two on that Motion. I would like to find out if the department for Information and Communication Technology (ICT) is in order not to have shown you that I was desirous to speak on that Motion. I seek your ruling on this matter.

 

Mr Speaker: Therefore, the query is whether the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) department was in order.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: Anyway, I cannot really say, but at the time when I made a decision from where I was seated, I had not observed your quest or desire to debate the Motion. I am sure many of you who have been here in the last seven years know that I may have limited debate on a particular subject, but certainly not thwarted debate. I have only simply counseled that a particular subject is of a procedural nature, lengthy debates are unnecessary or it is a constitutional requirement that we are fulfilling and so on and so forth. Therefore, I will share your sentiments that maybe we can put that mistake to some technological lapse and no more.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving the people of Kaputa this opportunity to be able to make a follow-up question. Hon Minister the weather reports from our meteorological department are very important for farmers to plan for their crops. The reports we received recently from the meteorological department were different with the type of weather we received. We were told that there would be rain during a particular week, but it did not rain. Is the meteorological department lacking what other meteorological departments in the world have? For instance, the weather reports from the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) and the South African news channels are more accurate than the ones we get in Zambia.

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, the weather forecast that we give is a seasonal forecast. It looks at the volume of the rainfall we will receive for an entire season. What we do not do very well, because of our limited capacity, is forecasting the distribution of the rainfall throughout the Rainy Season. We have only forty-one observation stations with manual equipment and sixty-eight stations with automated equipment across the country. We still have gaps in terms of the number of observation stations across the country. 

 

This Government wants to ensure that each district and agriculture camp has an observation station and rain gauges that can be used to accurately predict the amount of rain or drought to be experienced. There are some gaps that we need to close, and need to invest in acquiring equipment to refine the weather forecasting. If you have been following the weather bulletins we have been giving, you realise that we have also been giving crop bulletins. These are short term based and more immediate. We have other technologies we are downloading. We are also partnering with research institutions such as the University of Zambia (UNZA) to build capacity to help us refine how we do the weather forecasts.

 

Mr Speaker, weather forecasts are also dependent on historical information. Even if we installed the latest gadgets today, it would be difficult to depend on them entirely to give us a very accurate forecast because forecasts depend very much on the history of how information was gathered and captured in the past. There is room to improve. The ministry has many plans to improve the situation, including the purchase of weather radar systems and satellite imaging equipment that can help improve weather forecasting.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mrs Phiri (Nominated): Mr Speaker, it is a well-known fact that nobody can predict weather because it is an act of God. Last week, flights in some advanced countries were disrupted due to unpredictable weather. I have heard some people claim that there is advanced equipment which is used to predict the weather for the next two years, for instance. How true is that?

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, we are suffering from the phenomenon called climate change. We are going to see a lot of climate variability and extreme weather patterns, such as extreme temperatures. There could be drought in one season and heavy rains and floods in the next. This is as a result of man-made climate change caused by emissions into the atmosphere that have depleted the ozone layer.

 

Sir, forecasting is a science and because it is a science, there are techniques and instruments that are used to predict weather very accurately. In Europe, they predict weather very accurately because they have invested heavily in the gadgets and observation stations. That is something we are also doing. I said that we have established sixty-eight weather stations with automated equipment with the help of our cooperating partners, the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and the German Government. We want to increase these stations across the country and acquire satellite imaging equipment and the radar system. When this is done, we will be able to predict the weather patterns more accurately than we have done in the past.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, weather updates in the modern world are part of development because they inform our choices. Such updates inform disaster alertness or preparedness. In agriculture, weather forecasts are crucial. In this farming season, many farmers were not given adequate information about the weather and this created distortions in the agriculture sector. Why did the Ministry of Transport and Communication fail to secure enough time on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) to adequately inform farmers and general citizens on the expected weather pattern for them to make correct choices? The public broadcaster is spending too much time unnecessarily talking about things that are not relevant. They talk about the Patriotic Front (PF) everyday.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, I thank you for that rescue. The question that the hon. Member has asked is very important because it is touching on the Meteorological Department disseminating information to the people that need it to enable them make informed decisions.

 

Mr Speaker, we have been doing this in such a way that at the beginning of each rainy season, a forecast is published and that information is shared publicly by the minister. By doing that, we are encouraging further engagements, just as I have done today in my ministerial statement. There are all these other channels that the department uses to disseminate information, and we encourage engagement with the farmers, the aviation industry and the banks. These sectors rely on our information from the Meteorological Department for updates. The department issues crop weather bulletins regularly and throughout the rainy season. Therefore, we feel that we have provided enough opportunities for information to be disseminated to those who need it. I take note that, as always, we could do better. I will take that information to the ministry and see how else we can ensure that that engagement is fruitful, especially to the people who matter when we give this information.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Munkonge (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, we get a full catalogue of weather reports such as warnings for rain and dry spells. However, there is a noticeable absence of information on wind. I mention this because we do not receive any wind warnings. Of late, at least in my area, there was a lot of destructions caused by wind. Is it not time we started receiving warnings about strong and probably destructive winds? Is there a policy or equipment that can also warn us about that?

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, that is a very important question. Warnings about strong winds are also part of the implementation of the early warning systems which will look at all the disasters that can happen in a community. The system will try to forewarn the community and the Government so that appropriate action can be taken before disasters happen. As we move forward with the new automated stations that we are putting up, those are some of the areas that will be covered in this roll out.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Jamba (Mwebeshi): Mr Speaker, Mwembeshi is a sorry sight today. The people there had planted a good crop. However, during that long dry spell, the crop was damaged. Why did the Meteorological Department not give a forewarning and advise the farmers not to plant during that period of a prolonged drought?

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. I indicated that the Meteorological Department issues seasonal forecasts which are now broken down into regular weather bulletins. The encouragement that the department has always asked for is to engage with the communities so that it could share additional information which it gathers through the systems and observation stations. If the warning was not given or if it was given, but not on time, that is because of the issue that I spoke about regarding the state of infrastructure. However, we are making a lot of progress in terms of making sure that the infrastructure and gadgets that are needed as well as the training of the staff are all put in place. We may not be there yet, but we are committed to building capacity in the department.

 

Mr Speaker, we shall also continue working with the cooperating partners to make sure that the infrastructure we put up improves the communication especially to the communities that are impacted. In fact, I will bring a Bill to this august House, which I hope the Hon. Members of Parliament will support. This Bill will be about the partial commercialisation of meteorology information so that we can get some revenue from the commercial users of this information. That revenue will be re-invested into the department so that we build further capacity and make sure that the information gets across the country as robustly as it can.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has repeated the fact that the capacity of the Meteorological Department staff is still very low. Indeed, the established facts are that 60 per cent of the moisture that constitutes rain comes from the oceans while the remaining 40 per cent of the moisture comes from overland. Clearly, as the oceans are warming up due to the global climate change, we are likely to have more rainfall. Being further away from the oceans, our capacity, as a country, to monitor the rainfall pattern and the effects of the warming of the oceans is definitely low. Could the hon. Minister inform the House on what the ministry is doing to cooperate with other countries in the region, that are probably an advantaged position by being closer to the oceans, and may probably have better skills and knowledge on how to address climatic changes? What steps is the ministry taking to build capacity of our staff?

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, the collaboration by Zambia with other countries, which the hon. Member spoke about is happening. As I mentioned, the study of weather is a science and I spoke about the ministry engaging research institutions such as University of Zambia (UNZA), some universities in the United States of America (USA and in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region. We have collaborative efforts where we meet and discuss some of these things. The ministry is not left behind in those collaborations. As a ministry, we take part and share our stories and learn from our colleagues in terms of how they are managing the early warning systems, the weather forecast and also the preparedness that we must have. In terms of preparedness, I spoke about the plans that the ministry has of making sure that the country has weather and observation stations across the country. Right now, we do not have that, but we have intentions of doing that. We only have forty-one manual weather stations across the country and sixty eight automated weather stations. We want to make sure that we increase that reach.

 

Sir, we have the radar equipment which we are planning to implement together with other available technologies that the department has downloaded. This is aimed at making sure we are better prepared for any eventualities. This is because we understand climate change issues, disasters that are going to come as a result of climate change. Part of the reason we are bringing the Bill, which I have talked about to Parliament is to make sure that we become futuristic and get ahead of time and bring resources into this science, so that we can domesticate it and grow the capacities we need to grow. Further, we can have universities teaching some of these subjects to make sure that we, indeed, become ready to handle any disasters that will come from the climate variability that is being observed.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Dr Kopulande (Chembe): Mr Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to engage the hon. Minister. Allow me to put on record my appreciation for the work of the ministry and the work of the Government of the Republic of Zambia in terms ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Dr Kopulande: ... of rolling out communication towers throughout the country. Today, the people of Chembe who have been hitherto incommunicado are looking forward to a communication boost.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chembe, focus on the subject. We cannot just take this liberty to move away from the subject and introduce something that pleases us.

 

Dr Kopulande: Mr Speaker, the purpose of my preamble was to highlight the enthusiasm with which the ministry has rolled out the communication towers. This is what I am looking for in terms of their capacity to delivery weather information or climate data to the people that deserve it.

 

Sir, the people of Chembe have no radio or television network, therefore, they cannot benefit from the climate data that is supposed to be communicated to them in order for them to plan their development activities. When will the Government, through the ministry, embark on a programme to distribute radio and Television equipment to rural areas, particularly Chembe, so that the people there can also get the information that is communicated on weather conditions and predictions?

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, I take note of the hon. Member’s pleasant comments about the ministry and this Government of His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Mr Mushimba: ... because they have shown intention, focus and dedication to take development to every corner of the country.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Mr Mushimba: In this case, communication towers are indeed going to be put up across the country and we will ensure that every Zambian is able to communicate once this project is completed.

 

Sir, the question that the hon. Member asked on improving our dissemination of information ...

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Mushimba: ... is similar to the question I addressed earlier. The hon. Member specifically asked about the radio stations that could be used to further disseminate this information. I want to inform the House that the ministry, through the department of meteorology has a radio and internet programme (RANET) that aspires to install radio stations in many far flung areas where other forms of communication may be a challenge. We have called many hon. Members of Parliament to the department to sit in on this programme to sensitise them on the fact that these resources are available. If a request comes from a community for a radio station and we do our own ground investigations and find that indeed the radio station is needed, there are resources that could be accessed to make sure that the station is set up for weather and information dissemination.

 

Sir, this programme had been running until recently when the funding was cut. We are looking at other cooperating partners to get funding so that the project can continue and that these stations could be put in places where they will be of value in terms of dissemination of information. The hon. Member’s constituency will not be left behind.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Zimba (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, my question is very similar to the question asked by the hon. Member for Chembe. Since constituencies like Chasefu are in the most remote areas in Zambia, and they do not have television, radio or communication towers, how has information been disseminated to farmers?

 

Mr Mushimba: Mr Speaker, there are many modes of dissemination of information that we use. I spoke about many online systems, televisions and radio, but I did not mention our staff that are spread across the country. We have extension officers and weather observes that are in many districts and engage the farming communities and many other communities that benefit from our information. Where there is no radio, television or cell phone signal, there will be an extension officer from the ministry who will be able to interpret information and disseminate it in the area.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

ADVERSE EFFECTS OF THE EXTENDED FISHING BAN

 

238.  Mr Mutelo (Mitete) asked the Minister of Health:

 

1. whether the Government was aware about the adverse effects on the livelihoods of people affected by the extended fishing ban especially in areas that had not been affected by cholera;

 

1. if so, what assistance would be extended to the affected people; and

 

1. if no assistance would be provided, how the Government expected the affected people to survive considering that fishing was seasonal.

 

The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the impact of the extended fishing ban on the livelihoods of the people. It is important to note that the duty of the Government is to protect the people of Zambia and ensure that they trade in safe environments that have adequate access to safe water and sanitation amongst others and, therefore, not predispose them to waterborne diseases. Other areas that are not affected by cholera may not still have access to safe water and sanitation, thereby putting the people who would be plying their trade in those areas at risk of cholera and other waterborne diseases as such environments can facilitate quick spread of cholera in the country.

 

Sir, the movement of traders from various parts of the country is high, therefore, cholera can spread very easily and the transmission cycle can be enhanced with the early lifting of the fishing ban. Cholera can spread rapidly and dehydration and death can occur within 24 hours.

 

Mr Speaker, the Government has put in place a multi-sectoral task force which is addressing all issues as a way of controlling cholera. The task force is providing assistance on a case by case basis. Currently, assessments are being made in all the fishery areas to establish the magnitude of the risk of the outbreak and the assistance that may be required. All districts with these fishing camps and fishing areas have been put on high alert with district epidemic preparedness and response committees and rapid response teams monitoring the situation on the ground and supporting communities to get ready for the fishing trade. These committees are multi-sectoral in nature and include ministries responsible for social services, vulnerability risk support and mitigation and household food security.

 

Sir, requirements that have been projected include the need for health promotion, economic assistance and other measures that may be ascertained based on the assessments of the teams of the ground. Ultimately, the objective of the teams is to ensure that conditions prevail that would allow a timely resumption of normal economic activity in the fishing areas with minimal risk of a potential catastrophic outbreak of cholera.

 

Mr Speaker, as alluded to earlier, the Government is assessing the assistance on a case by case basis.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Mr Speaker, I am aware of what the hon. Minister has said, but the hon. Minister is equally aware that nutrition is part of health. Our traditional food stuffs have high values of protective foods. For now when it is time to fish and eat to get the nutrients from the fish, we cannot because of the ban. Does the hon. Minister not think that we are becoming more vulnerable to the same cholera which he says he is protecting us from?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the concern of the hon. Member for Mitete and his terra firma in speaking about the importance of nutrition. Indeed fish is a source of various nutrients. However, it is important to note that we can only allow fishing and hence allow people to benefit from the fish if the environment in which they are plying their trade is safe for the fishermen and the traders and they are not prone to waterborne diseases. Otherwise, we may put the same people we are trying to help at risk of death from waterborne diseases. It is very important that we understand that the basics of trade requires that the trader and the fishermen are all healthy for them to ply in their trade appropriately.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kamboni (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I thank you according me to raise a point of privilege …

 

Mr Lubinda: Ah!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: …on the Floor of this august House arising from a statement that was made by Her Honour the Vice-President through the hon. Minister in her Office, Ms Chalikosa. This is arising from Standing Orders No.28 and 51 (1).

 

Mr Speaker, in response to the question that was raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili, Mr Chabi, the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President informed this august House that the President of the Republic, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, was using his salary to finance the printing of the books which were the subject matter of the question that was raised by Mr Chabi.

 

Mr Speaker, I have in my hands, a statement made by the President, the one who was said to be a philanthropist, who was using his salary to finance this particular project. According to a statement by the President, that is published in the Zambia Daily Mail of Thursday, 15^th March, 2018, the President has made a contrary statement to the one that was made by the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President.

 

Mr Speaker, for ease of reference, I would like to read the statement by the President published in a Government newspaper, the Zambia Daily Mail.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the President in today’s paper, under the headline, “nothing wrong with my portrait”, this statement was written by Mr Chomba Musika.

 

“President said, there is nothing wrong with the distribution of school exercise books bearing his portrait. The President does not understand why some Opposition political party leaders are offended by the sight of books with his face. He was speaking to journalists yesterday at Kenneth Kaunda International Airport on arrival from South Africa.”

 

The journalist quotes the President;

 

“What is wrong with them [Opposition] seeing a book with the President’s portrait? Who is the President? Who is the President of the Republic of Zambia? It is me, he said”.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

“The United Party for National Development has alleged that the distribution of the books bearing President Lungu’s portrait is campaign strategy…

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Hon. PF Members: Ah!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: …     but President Lungu said the exercise books were solely designed and printed by well wishers. Those books were given to us by friends from the corporate world who said can we do books to help the vulnerable people and I said yes and they did the layout and designed the books, he said”.

 

Mr Speaker, from the horse’s mouth, the President is saying he is not using his money. He is using donations from well wishers and the corporate world. Is the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President in order to allege that the president is using his salary to print these books, misleading us and the nation… contrary to the Standing Orders.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Mrs M. Phiri: mukafwa nechikonko!

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Mwiimbu laid the paper on the Table.

 

Mr Speaker: Order, let us have some order.

 

The point of order is premised on the proceedings that took place yesterday. There was a Question for Oral Answer directed to the Office of Her Honour the Vice-President and the hon. Minister in that office came through and responded virtually to a flurry of questions on the subject. I may not have been in the House, but I was following wherever I was very closely the proceedings in the House.

 

As far as yesterday’s business, as it were, was concerned, those issues were attended to by the hon. Minister in that particular fashion.

 

Now, what the hon. Member for Monze seeks to do this afternoon is to take another source, according to his point of order, but I have not read it.

 

Therefore, I can only say that according to the source you have laid on the Table of the House, you have quoted some statements by His Excellency the President. You are suggesting of course, that the explanation given by the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President is juxtaposed or perhaps, different or inconsistent with what you have just laid on the Table. We have repeatedly said in the past what the essence of points of order are. Points of order are essentially premised on procedural matters.

 

What you are raising here, as I see it myself, is a substantive issue. Of course, underlining it, you seem to be suggesting and perhaps understandably so, that there could be a violation of privilege in terms of the veracity of the responses that were given by the minister. I think the fairest way to proceed both to the hon. Minister and to yourself, is to simply pursue this matter further through a question so that the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President will give a response.

 

I have said before that I will be extremely slow to order a ministerial statement on issues which I do not consider to be, as I have articulated a criteria before, urgent, compelling and so forth. I am not forestalling you inquiring from the minister. I think it is a question of how you proceed. Certainly of course, you do not expect me to rule on which position is correct or not. Through the question, you are going to have an opportunity to further engage, the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President. You will have that opportunity and I am going to give it to you. I will give you that opportunity.

 

Mr Mwiimbu smiled.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: That is my ruling.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Let us proceed. We cannot proceed with guidance after a ruling.

 

Mr Kambita: Mr Speaker, after that point of order, I almost lost my line of thought. It is good that I am back on track. I take note that the Government has been very quick to come up with interventions and I appreciate it. I know that the Government has put these interventions in place to curb the spread of this deadly waterborne disease known as cholera that has ravaged our country in the recent past. However, the interventions that the Government is putting in place are only a stopgap measure. We do not seem to see any sustainable solutions being put in place. Has the Government got any clear plan of putting up sanitary facilities in areas such as fishing camps, which are mostly affected by this disease, so that we prevent it from spreading to other parts that are not affected? If the Government came up with such long term interventions, we would not be asking these questions today.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the progressive input. It is true that we need to define an epidemic in terms of its determinants. In redressing an epidemic, we must also ensure that we put in short, medium and long term measures. The sustainable way of stopping cholera is actually to ensure that the people countrywide drink and use water that is totally separate from sewer. The moment there is a mix between sewer and drinking water, we put our people at risk.

 

Sir, in terms of the long term measures in unplanned slums in Lusaka, where we have had this challenge for a long time in terms of planning, we are doing urbanisation. This is where we are relaying the pipes and ensuring that we have network of water. That is part of the sustainable solution to cholera or any other waterborne diseases. We have engaged Chinese companies that are laying pipes and installing the new network in the slums of Lusaka.

 

Mr Speaker, secondly, we have embraced technology that will enable us have at least toilets that will be separate from the network for water. Thirdly, in the fishing camps, we have engaged colleagues in the sister ministries and various communities to come up with a way of fishing without creating makeshift structures without sanitary facilities so that our people can utilise the same water for domestic chores and also, for fishing. Therefore, we want to ensure that there is this separation. As we speak, teams in various provinces involving officers from the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock, and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare are engaging various stakeholders to allow fishing in places where people do not stay overnight or stay for a long period of time where there are no sanitary facilities and clean and safe water. This requires a culture and mindset change. It is through this engagement that we believe that things will be done differently.

 

Sir, we do not want fishing to be done the way it has been done in the past. We are avoiding situations where people go to places such as Shibuyunji, set up makeshift structures which can lead to open disposal of human waste to water they use for drinking. That pre-disposes everybody to waterborne diseases.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, for us hon. Members who come from areas such as Kaputa, Nsama and Chienge where fishing is a livelihood of the people, we definitely have been affected by this extension of the fishing ban. This is not to say that we are not supporting the Government policy of trying to ensure that people do not get affected by this deadly disease. When I speak to my people, I notice that they lack information. The information dissemination is not there in these fishing camps. There is poor communication between us who have made the policy and the people who are supposed to be fishing.

 

Mr Speaker, does the Government have any intention, within the finances that it has for cholera control, to ensure that Members of Parliament are also empowered? Most of the Members of Parliament who come from these areas with rivers will have to visit many areas in order to explain these interventions to the people. If there are some resources that are there, does the Government have any plan to empower hon. Members of Parliament so that they can do an effective job?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, all hon. Members of Parliament will be empowered with information to disseminate to their constituents as they get back to their constituencies. Furthermore, hon. Members of Parliament are encouraged to work with the provincial health and fisheries officers including stakeholders so that they engage the constituents. If there are resources at provincial level, and trips are undertaken to go and disseminate information, hon. Members of Parliament will be encouraged to participate in those engagements.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, cholera was first reported in Lusaka in October last year and the number of cases started escalating. I expected the Government then to put in place preventive measures unlike the way the fishermen have been inconvenienced. However, how long will the measures the ministry is taking going to be in force? We do not want the people to be inconvenienced at the end of next year’s fishing ban in March the way they have been inconvenienced this year.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge for that progressive question. The Ministry of Health has been working with various stakeholders including the Ministries of Fisheries and Livestock, Community, Development and Social Welfare, General Education and Local Government to ensure that we not only look at the immediate response, but also risk reduction and can project how we could stop the spread of the outbreak to various parts of the country.

 

Sir, much earlier in the response, we engaged the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock and I stated that we would like to change the way the people fish. This information is being disseminated and we may need to reinforce the community information system so that the people are better informed and involved because we need to run away from the practice of fishing and trading in places where we use the same water that is exposed to human waste since this just predisposes us to various infections. We started that dissemination way back and we need to reinforce it.

 

Mr Speaker, I want to assure the hon. Members that we are not only looking at the immediate response, but we are defining certain areas that we shall call fishing areas. We want to put infrastructure where people can move from wherever they come from and can be able to lodge, have access to clean water and good sanitary facilities and can trade during a particular period of time without putting the host communities or themselves at risk.  We are engaging with various stakeholders to change the way business is being conducted. We are confident that with the measures that we are putting in place and there sources that we are mobilising, we should be able to avoid the outbreak in the coming years.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, when I compare our compounds …

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Available information indicates that eleven fishermen from Mwense Village in Samfya were arrested by the police two days ago because they organised themselves and attacked some officials from the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock and were in possession of fish. Clearly, the arrest has been as a result of the extension of the fishing ban.

 

Sir, is the hon. Minister in the Office of the Vice-President, who is responsible for the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), in order to sit quietly when villagers in Samfya who depend on fishing are in such a desperate situation and some of them are now being arrested and put in the cells because of trying to address their need? Is she in order not to try and find workable solutions to mitigate the desperate situation in which the fishermen in Samfya have found themselves in?

 

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

 

Mr Livune: File in an urgent question.

 

Mr Speaker: I can hear some people predicting my response …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: … and their prediction is correct.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Speaker: We have not let you down when it comes to processing urgent questions. We do it with dispatch. Quite frankly, there are a lot of things that happen throughout the country and they require investigation. That is the whole idea of filing questions. There is so much clarity in a written question because it can have six or seven parts and even contingency things and so forth. Therefore, I am left to wonder all the time when you shy away from filing questions and prefer instead to ask questions which you know cannot be responded to on the spot. It is not possible because the hon. Minister will need to go back to the locality and verify the information so that when she returns to the House, she makes a meaningful response. Apart from getting a meaningful response, you also have an opportunity to clarify and engage her further. Alas, you still maintain and ask why hon. Ministers are silent on this and that. They are not omnipresent and they need to double check the information. In short, hon. Member for Nalikwanda, file an urgent question. It will be processed with dispatch.

 

Mr Kamboni: Mr Speaker, if you have a set up in the village where people are committing suicide by hanging themselves on the trees, you do not get an axe and cut all the trees to solve the problem because that would be a bad method. I went to John Laing four days ago. I drove about 150 m from one house to another. There was dirty water and I could actually feel the presence of cholera.. In this era of technology and methods of medicine, why is the Ministry of Health using wholesale methods to combat cholera by closing institutions? Why not use immediate methods so that they do not close institutions? In the end the closing of institutions becomes worse than cholera itself.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I understand the passion because we know that the people out there are anxious about fishing.

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Dr Chilufya: Thank you, Madam Speaker. When business was suspended, I was about to answer a supplementary from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo and I wish to say that I understand the passion with which the hon. Member has presented the question and drawn parallels with other situations like suicide and so on and so forth.

 

However, the rules of public health are very clear that we have to ensure that we find the determinants of an outbreak. We also need to be alert to pick out any risks that would predispose the population to the outbreak, even in places where the outbreak is inactive. Therefore, wholesome measures are done in public health to protect the population.

 

Madam Speaker, in instances where decisions are not taken timely or not taken at all, we fight bigger outbreaks and mortality rate is high. For this reason, there is evidence from surrounding countries, where bold and timely decisions have not been taken and where numbers have soared to as high as 60,000 cases, within the same outbreak period that we have, with mortalities as high as 3,000. Therefore, we have learnt our lessons and using the science of epidemic control, we have put in place measures that will protect the public from the outbreak of cholera. Therefore, risk reduction measures may involve measures like the ones we have taken.

 

To particularly focus on what the hon. Member has said, if you determine that the outbreak of a water borne disease particularly cholera, is consumption of contaminated water, then, you would not allow a situation where the same existing circumstances in the epic centre are replicated in various parts of the country. That would mean not using evidence for informed decision making.

 

Therefore, in public health, it is an abomination. Therefore, we are on terra firma in taking certain decisions to protect the public from bad health.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, I appreciate as much as the hon. Minister also appreciates the adverse effects of the fishing ban in Mitete and many other places in this country. Since many fishing camps are dotted along rivers and lakes, and if the ban is because of the outbreak of cholera, does the hon. Minister of Health have plans of putting up permanent sanitary facilities. If he has such plans, how is he going to manage these? I am saying so because when one goes along the rivers and lakes, you find that people are launching their fishing activities on different harbours. How is he going to manage that one so that everybody is launching from where he is going to put sanitary facilities?

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, for the sake of emphasis, I will say, that it is important that we shift the paradigm from allowing our people to make makeshift structures, regardless of absence of sanitary facilities and access to clean and safe water, to a situation where people come from permanent structures which are well serviced with facilities both for water and sanitation. Then people could move from those permanent homes to go and fish, trade and get back. We need to abolish temporary fishing camps which have no water and sanitary facilities.

 

This is the engagement that we are involved in. This is the reason hon. Members are going to see and observe that there will be a lot of stakeholders who are the chiefs, village headmen, opinion foremen in various parts of the country to ensure that we agree on the best way to ensure a healthy population and this is the best way to sustain fishing itself. If we do not do like you have proposed, we would actually be making cholera endemic.

 

Therefore, to be appropriate in our response and sustainable, it is important that we do as you suggested so that we put up permanent structures with water and sanitary facilities so that the people are not at risk as they fish. That is the direction we are taking.

 

In these two weeks before the date that we have proposed to review the ban, we should educate the public that for those who have homes, let them retreat and come from their homes. This move is to avoid them using open human waste disposal methods and drinking water that is contaminated.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kintu (Solwezi East): Madam Speaker, I think the issue is about trading under insanitary conditions. It is not about the fish or fish camps, but it is the trade that is taking place under these conditions. The people who depend on fishing are complaining because they have seen that in other trades, people are still trading under unsanitary conditions and the hon. Minister has not banned such trade. Is it that the hon. Minister is using public health to punish certain sections of trade or traders?

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, cholera outbreak is not about trading in unsanitary places, but it is about the consumption of contaminated water and food. It is about poor garbage disposal, poor human waste management that culminates in contamination of food. Now, the precursor conditions include allowing people to crowd in a place where there are no sanitary and water facilities.

 

In Lusaka today, the city council has designated places where trading whether in fish or anything else, takes place. Where there are no sanitary facilities, we are not allowing trading. Therefore, this is not targeted at any sector. If the hon. Member can remember, during the peak of the epidemic, we shut down market places including some of the major chain stores in the country. We shut down shops, schools and so, we are not particularly targeting any sector. We must also realise that we use information to inform policy decisions.

 

Madam Speaker, if we examine the outbreaks of cholera in the past, more than 60 to 70 per cent of the outbreaks have index cases from the fishing camps. This is where the cholera has spread from. If you examine again information over the last many years, you will realise that the majority of outbreaks have actually occurred not only in fishing camps, but also spreading from the fishing camps to other areas.

 

There is no discrimination against any sector, but it is just public health considerations to protect the public. Therefore, I would like to propose that leaders across the political divide should unite to protect the public from ill-health. Therefore, it is important that we all share the same information and disseminate it to our constituencies so that the people can understand that doing business the way we have been doing it in the past and accepting cholera endemic is not the way to go.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, the extension of the fishing ban has caused more crime in some areas and Mumbwa in particular, where thefts are on the increase. Many fishermen have now opted to start stealing cattle, dry the meat and bring it to Lusaka as dried bush meant and this has really become a big challenge. The hon. Minister has only talked about the fishing camps, but what about the villagers who live along the banks of the Kafue River and other rivers. What measures has the Government putting in place to help them on matters of sanitation.

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, it is really regrettable if theft has increased in such times because that is not the intention. The purpose of the fishing ban is to protect the public from ill-health. We are making sure that the villages and the settlements that derive livelihoods mainly from fishing have adequate infrastructure for sanitation and access to clean water so that the people can be coming from home, carry out their fishing, trade and then, get back home. Suffice to say that we are against a situation, where one comes from far and put up a makeshift structure without appropriate infrastructure such as toilets where there is no access to clean or safe water, open disposal of human waste, then, there is free flow of water into where we are fishing from. Therefore, you would find that the same contaminated water is used for drinking and for other house or domestic chores. We are discouraging that because we want proper human waste disposal for people who have approved settlements and this is the sensitisation that is taking place.

 

Madam, a number of provinces and districts, where there are prominently fishing populations, have been declared open certification free zones, which means that the people have learnt that there is a minimum distance which should be created between a pit latrine and where to access water. We should also ensure that we do not just dispose human waste indiscriminately. Therefore, the answer is that we are working with various stakeholders to ensure that the fishing populations have good sanitary and water facilities.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Mr Speaker, indeed, fishing in some places in Zambia is seasonal. By the time one is finishing the assessment, the fishing season would have been over. I would like to know what purpose the assessment would serve.

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, like I stated yesterday on the Floor of the House, the Government is reviewing the fishing ban on 31^st March, 2018 and possibly re-opening on 1^st April, 2018. This will still be the fishing season and it will be safer for everybody because we would have engaged in risk reduction. Further, we would have actually agreed with the host communities and various stakeholders on the benchmarks the Government needs to ensure to avoid fishing associated with outbreaks. It is, therefore, better than allowing an outbreak and then getting back to close because that is when we will now derail the fishing season.

 

Madam, it is important to note that if we are careless and just allow certain determinants unaddressed or unabated, we will still get cholera and the reaction, is to close. Remember, we have been there before. When we close, we disrupt the lives of the people for a long time. Therefore, it is important that we do a stitch in time to save nine.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Madam Speaker, we are told that about 80 per cent or more cholera is predominantly found in Lusaka. In the rural areas like Liuwa, cholera does not exist. Now, the Government is saying that they are concerned about transferring cholera, and yet, every single day, people are moving from Kanyama to town, but the Government is not scared that these people can transmit cholera from Kanyama into town. People are moving from Kuku Township into town, but the Government is not concerned that they are transferring cholera from those areas into town.

 

Madam, these people are enjoying incomes. Is it not the case that the Government has deliberately chosen the rural areas like Liuwa or Kaputa and other places because the Government cannot stop people from trading, where the cholera is because people will riot against them? The people in places like Liuwa, Kaputa and other rural communities are not going to do anything despite that there is no cholera. In short, is the Government not discriminating against the rural people of Zambia, who are enduring poverty?

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, the approach in public health is never discriminatory. Actually, the approach is to reduce inequalities. Therefore, the Government does not discriminate.

 

Madam, the Government put in public Health measures, which are meant to protect everybody from ill-health or from potential catastrophic disease outbreaks. Let me just emphasise that it is not just about people moving from Kanyama that matters, it is about people congregating in a place for a long time without sanitary facilities or access to clean and safe water.

 

Madam Speaker, what happens in a traditional fishing camp in Zambia is that people shift from their stable homes, get into those places and create makeshift structures, where there are no toilets or access to clean and safe water. The problem is that people mix drinking water with human waste. Therefore, you would find that flies coming from human waste would contaminate the food they consume. The parallels being drawn are not appropriate.

 

Madam Speaker, let me conclude by saying that the ministry is concerned about the people of Liuwa as we are about the people in Lusaka. When there as an outbreak in here, there was outcry when street vendors were removed from the streets because there was evidence that food was contaminated. When markets were closed, we know that livelihoods were disrupted. This is not our intention. The intention of the Government is to ensure that we bring the outbreak to a stop quickly and return to normalcy. The people of Liuwa must not be exposed to the risk of a new outbreak.

 

Madam, by definition of a cholera epidemic, just one case is enough. Already, we have recorded five cases in Western Province and in Mongu in particular and one case in Kaoma. Therefore, we know that there are epidemiological linkages because of the movements, but we will not be casual by allowing a replication of circumstances that culminated in the outbreak of the cholera in the epicenters in other places because that would not be the best way of using scientifically deduced evidence to protect the public from ill-health.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.      

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We will end this question with the last follow-up question from the hon. Member for Kanchibiya. Hon. Members will appreciate that we dealt with this issue yesterday.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, opposition political parties play a very important role in a democracy. The United Party for National Development (UPND) under the late Anderson Mazoka was a very viable opposition party.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Madam, two or three days ago, two very rich young men heading an opposition party made a statement urging the Government to cancel the fishing ban. Of course, we want to follow or to be informed on the findings of the technical team. Therefore, did the heads of a particular party consult the ministry before coming up with that suggestion or they were just after creating a political conundrum?

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, like I said earlier on, matters of health should unite us from across the political aisle. We need to ensure that we all speak to support good health of the people of this country. Therefore, I will limit my comments to the fact that we maintain an open door policy and we are able to engage with any stakeholder who has any concerns so that we can justify why certain public health measures are put in place to ensure that the population is kept healthy.

 

It is in the interest of all leaders to ensure that Zambians are healthy. Whenever there is a disease outbreak, it is not anything that any leader from either political side should pride in. I would like to conclude by just saying that let us engage when there are misunderstandings so that we can reach out to our constituents with one voice.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Before you conclude, hon. Minister, the originator of the question insists that he wants to have the last chance.

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Speaker, we all seem to be in agreement with what the hon. Minister is saying. However, when the rivers and lakes are flooded, the fishermen also change the fishing spots because of the movement of fish. As the waters would be descending, even the fish …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please ask a question, hon. Member for Mitete.

 

Mr Mutelo: Looking at the sanitary measures that the ministry has taken, how are the toilets going to be shifted to where the fishermen will be moving?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mutelo: Fishing practices change based on the season. At the moment, fishing is taking place in the upper lands because of the shift in the water levels. By the time the fishing ban is lifted, the fish would have gone to different parts of the water bodies and the fishermen will suffer.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Therefore, the question is; how will the movement of sanitary facilities be done?

 

Mr Mutelo: Yes, how are we going to be shifting the toilet facilities to where the fishing will be taking place?

 

Dr Chilufya: Madam Speaker, it is a long time ago since I went to a cinema. Therefore, I always enjoy the comedy from my brother from Mitete. Madam Speaker that is why we are insisting that we need to…

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I will take it that is on a lighter note.

 

Dr Chilufya: Yes, it is on a light note.

 

Madam Speaker, we are talking about permanent fishing settlements. We are putting up infrastructure that is not affected by seasonality. We want people to settle in certain places and to only move to go and fish overnight and then get back to trade in designated places. We do not want to allow temporary structures without access to clean and safe water.

 

Nonetheless, I perfectly understand the hon. Member and I want to assure him that in our design of the facilities in question, there will be nothing like putting up infrastructure that will be shifting like human beings. Therefore, those factors will be taken care of. Only two weeks are remaining to make sure that everybody is ready. We want to use these two weeks to sensitise the public and I want to appeal to Hon. Mutelo to join us in sensitising our constituents, including those in his constituency. We need them to buy into this programme for us to get ready by embarking on a massive cleanup and preparation so that on 1^st April, 2018, we can easily lift the fishing ban.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

BAN ON STUDENTS SHARING ROOMS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA

 

239. Mrs Chonya (Kafue) asked the Minister of Higher Education:

 

1. why the sharing of rooms by students at the University of Zambia (UNZA) had been banned; and

 

1. how the students who were ‘squatting’ would be accommodated when the institution reopens.

 

The Minister of Higher Education (Prof. Luo): Madam Speaker, the sharing of rooms at the University of Zambia (UNZA) has not been banned. What has been banned is squatting and the two are distinctly different.

 

Madam Speaker, the ministry realised that students who were provided with accommodation at the university were renting out space to other students as squatters at a fee. This increased the population of students in the hostels and overburdened the available facilities, including sanitation, thereby compromising their health and contributing to the deterioration of the infrastructure in the universities.

 

Madam Speaker, a university is an academic unit with the responsibility to develop its constituents into responsible citizens. Universities do not only train students to pass examinations, but also train them to become responsible citizens with integrity, virtues and values. Allowing them to charge their friends for rooms which do not belong to them is encouraging them to be irresponsible citizens and, for lack of a better word, we are training them to be thieves. When they complete their education and start working, they may …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, you may not use that word on our children.

 

Prof. Luo: I will use ‘taking what does not belong to them’.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Withdraw!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Just withdraw the word.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, I withdraw that word.

 

Madam Speaker, when students complete their education and start working, they may continue getting resources that do not belong to them from their employers because they would be used to doing so from their time at university.

 

Madam Speaker, therefore, sharing of rooms by students at UNZA will from now onwards be regulated. Students are being banned from engaging in the practice of renting out the space belonging to the university to other students, which made them landlords for property that they did not acquire. This measure will, in cases where rooms are big enough to accommodate more than two students, enable the institution to receive the money for the bed space from the additional students. This will not only enhance rationality in the allocation of students’ accommodation, but also promote equality among the learners.

 

Madam Speaker, banning the practice of renting out space to other students as squatters at a fee is a policy that will be actualised by the university management. Although I appreciate that this is an urgent matter, it will not happen haphazardly. The university will deal with it in an orderly manner without inconveniencing the students. The university has provided the ministry with immediate, medium and long term solutions to this problem. In the short term, one of the solutions that has been agreed upon is to provide bunk beds in the hostels to accommodate up to four students per room. In the medium term, the Ministry of Higher Education, in liaison with the university, will work to increase not only the bed spaces, but the sanitation facilities. These solutions will support the increased number of students at the university. In the long run, the ministry will ensure that construction of hostels is expedited. The ministry is also encouraging the private sector to come on board to support the Government in the provision of student accommodation.

 

Madam Speaker, let me take this opportunity to appeal especially to the alumni of different institutions of higher learning to rise to this occasion and support our institutions by donating the bunk beds and other facilities that we need at our institutions. This will only be a short term measure as we await more hostels to be constructed.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has talked about the student hostels that are being constructed. I have seen these hostels, they are quite advanced. When is the Government going to complete the construction of these hostels to ease the burden of student accommodation at the University of Zambia (UNZA)?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, the construction of the student hostels is at different levels. Some of them may be ready for use in the shortest possible time and others will take much longer.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Fungulwe (Lufwanyama): Madam Speaker, the University of Zambia (UNZA) took long to be reopened. Did the student accommodation problem contribute to the delay in reopening the institution?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, maybe when I brought the ministerial statement on that issue to Parliament, the hon. Member may have been absent. However, I will still answer him.

 

Madam, the delay in the reopening of the University of Zambia (UNZA) was as result of the cholera epidemic. Keeping it closed was a public health measure.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mrs Phiri (Nominated): Madam Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Higher Education over the situation at the University of Zambia (UNZA). This situation is more stressful to the parents who have children going to this university. We have even lost lives at the university because of overcrowding as some children started fighting because they could not be given privacy when they asked for it from their fellow students. Does the ministry have a programme to sensitise the general public on what is really happening at the university so that they can appreciate when the Government says that there should be only two students in each room?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, squatting contributed to a lot of security issues at the University of Zambia (UNZA). After restructuring the ministry, we now have a visual aid unit which will be looking at sensitising the people. I would have loved the unit to have done a documentary showing what the situation was like before squatting was banned and what it will be like after the ban. I think many students are very happy to go back to the university that now has improved sanitation.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to tell this hon. House, the lovely people of Zambia and of course, the non-performing Patriotic Front (PF) Government …

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Ask your question, hon. Member.

 

Mr Michelo: What is the total shortage of bed capacity at the University of Zambia (UNZA)?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, I will preface my answer by informing the hon. Member that in the history of Zambia, there has been no better performing Government other than the Patriotic Front (PF).

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, although I use spectacles to see, even without them, I can see the difference in Zambia. Right now, Zambia is a better place to be in.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, the current number of bed spaces at the University of Zambia (UNZA) is 3,800 against a total population of over 24,000 students.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Speaker, the problem with the hon. Minister of Higher Education is that she wants to be the judge, juror and jury when it comes to university issues.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, …

 

Ms Mwashingwele: My question is …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Katuba, please withdraw that statement.

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Madam Speaker, I withdraw it.

 

Why is it that the Government wants to provide the student accommodation when even the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) can do it? The Government can use Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) to build accommodation. They should leave the construction of student accommodation to the private sector so that they concentrate on the core business of higher education institutions, which is educating the children. Why is the Government not handing over the construction of student accommodation to those institutions that can do it better, like the National Housing Authority (NHA)?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, maybe the hon. Member was out of the House when I read the response to this question. I said that we are calling upon those in the private sector who can contribute to universities to do so. The National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) is part of the private sector.

 

Madam, it is important for people in this august House to know that Zambians have seen the huge construction of student accommodation going on throughout our institutions of higher learning in this country. They do not need to be told about it.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mwila (Chimwemwe): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has appealed for private sector involvement in the construction of student hostels. However, I am aware that East Park Mall developers were given access to the University of Zambia (UNZA) land because key in their business plan was the construction of students’ hostels. If the developer had prioritised the construction of students’ hostels, we would not be talking about the problem of squatting at the institution of higher learning.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is your question?

 

Mr Mwila: Madam Speaker, when is the Ministry of Higher Education going to compel the developers for East Park Mall to construct students’ hostels as per original Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) signed between the East Park Mall and UNZA managements, so that we stop talking about the issue of squatting at UNZA?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, I want to preface my response by stating that we sing about the private sector as if it is the Lord Almighty, yet the private sector also has its own flaws. Therefore, even as I call upon it to participate, we are, as a ministry, drawing guidelines. We are also making sure that we put in punitive measures where any developer who has said, and agreed and signed to do certain things but does not, is made to fulfill that obligation. Therefore, as I am putting out this call to the private sector, I am going to ensure that they deliver that which they said they would.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Madam Speaker, since the Patriotic Front (PF) Government claims to be caring, I want to find out why it made such an abrupt decision on squatters instead of alerting the children in good time. The ministry could have advised the children way back before they even went back home. Why did the Government put this measure in place in an abrupt manner?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, my Government does not make abrupt decisions. It has a team of men and women who are critical thinkers and think through their decisions. Therefore, this was a decision that was well thought through. This is why we have asked the university management to give us a plan as to how this policy implementation will happen.

 

Madam Speaker, I hope the hon. colleagues here heard correctly, unless they are saying that they want their children to be doing the wrong things. They were squatting and also making their colleagues pay for that space which does not belong to them. That space belongs to the people of Zambia through UNZA. Therefore, my Government thought through it and decided to bring tangible change to university education. We want, at the end of four years, to churn out students who will, as our third verse of our national anthem states, be like the eagle that flies over the sky because they are well trained.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, we have heard various statements concerning accommodation in our universities from most Presidents of this country to the nation through this House. The current President also made mention of building hostels at the universities, especially the ones owned by the Government. However, we have not seen much progress in that area. I have a number of young people who come from Zambezi East Parliamentary Constituency who have been affected by the Government’s decision to ban squatting in universities. I have an example of these hostels, ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member, just ask your question because you will have many examples.

 

Mr Kambita: Madam Speaker, when these hostels are built, it seems as if students with money are the ones who end up occupying them. What measures has the Government put in place to ensure that poor students who cannot afford hostels like Mwanawasa Hostel at the University of Zambia (UNZA) and the newly built ones at the Copperbelt University (CBU) also occupy such hostels based on their performance and on the basis of being Zambians who deserve to be accommodated?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, I believe in analysis and not speculation. Therefore, my Government has done an analysis. That is why the allocation of rooms takes into consideration the people who are coming from outside. It is a fact that there are more students than the number of rooms at our universities. I am sure that when we have enough hostels, the students from all over the country will be accommodated. The PF Government is a Government that got on the platform of supporting the poor.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Ms Tambatamba (Kasempa): Madam Speaker, with so many admissions into universities, there are so many differently abled students. The other day, I was watching so many students trooping back after they were told to look for accommodation elsewhere. I wondered what was happening to those students who are disabled. In some caring jurisdictions, the facilities are designed in such a way that they are accessible to people who are physically challenged. Do we have a policy which prioritises students with disabilities, some of whom are from Kasempa and are admitted into our universities?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member has asked a very important question, which we, as a ministry have given priority to. First of all, when looking at the allocation of accommodation or admissions, we ensure that there is gender balance, except in cases where the women have not applied.

 

Madam Speaker, secondly, we ensure that we take into consideration the people living with disabilities. One of our policy statements states that the people that are living with disabilities must be accommodated on the ground floor. This is because at the time the hostels were built, people living with disabilities were not provided for. However, in the new hostels that we are constructing, we are providing for that.

 

Madam Speaker, you may also wish to know that this year, the Government ensured that all colleges training people with disabilities were given scholarships.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity. With your greatest indulgence, I would like to acknowledge that this subject is not only important, but also close to my heart. This is why, everyday, I put on this badge for the university. As a former president of the University of Zambia Students Union (UNZASU), I forever remain indebted to that institution.

 

Madam Speaker, the topic on the Floor of this House moves my heart whenever it is brought up. To underpin its severity, I would like to say that when I was president of UNZASU, of which the hon. Minister is aware, my leadership undertook to commence the construction of the Mwanawasa Hostel as a students’ initiative under the leadership of Professor Lungwangwa who was at that time Deputy Vice-Chancellor of the university. No wonder we are sitting next to each other here.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: I am not politicking today because this is very close to my heart. The hon. Minister ought to know that the issue of squatting at the university is not as a result of a desire by students to make money and be branded as landlords. I, as president of the University of Zambia Students Union (UNZASU) then, was given former President Mwanawasa’s room to occupy alone and I refused because of the severity of the accommodation situation. I remained squatting as the President of UNZASU with three other students.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The question now, hon. Member for Choma.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Why is the hon. Minister so heartless?

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You will withdraw the reference to the hon. Minister as being heartless. Let us be civil in our language.

 

Mr Mweetwa: I withdraw, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Livune: She has a hard heart.

 

Mr Mweetwa: No, she does not have hard heart. She is a good hon. Minister.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Why is it that the hon. Minister has not done consultations – Hon. Mabumba, leave the hon. Minister alone for me to deal with her.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: For you to ask the hon. Minister a question.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Why has the ...

 

Dr Malama: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kanchibiya, please take your seat.

 

Dr Malama resumed his seat.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have been very liberal and allowed a number of you to ask questions because I understand that this is a very important topic. I will, therefore, not allow points of order. Hon. Member for Choma, please ask your question.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Most obliged, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, squatting is precipitated and necessitated by a number of issues. One of them is where a student from a poor family who is unable to meet their tuition fees for various reasons has been given accommodation and in order to pay for the room they get into this arrangement of cost sharing with another student at their personal inconvenience. Why brand them as landlords when the act of squatting is inconveniencing to the owner of the room and is necessitated by the fact that this student may not be able to pay on their own and has to engage another for cost sharing purposes because the economy has collapsed not just under the Patriotic Front ..

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma you have asked your question.

 

Prof Luo: Madam Speaker, those who have the heart and who are very passionate about this project should have contributed to the alumni programme that the Government put in place. None of the people who are asking questions appeared on the list of contributors. Let us not pretend to have hearts by playing to the gallery because we are in this House. If anyone can be branded as heartless, I would like to brand the hon. Member.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

 

Hon. Minister, I already guided and the hon. Member for Choma withdrew that reference to you. Let us make progress.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, only a few rooms were built under President Mwanawasa, but the PF Government is building 9,600 rooms.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mulenga: 9,000!

 

Prof. Luo: I took time to remind everybody in this august House that the PF Government is developing the children. Universities are not places to allow children to be doing the wrong things.

 

Madam Speaker, a lot of us sited in this room come from very humble homes. Some had to go and study under what is called a koloboyi, but the Parents didn’t allow us to do wrong things...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What is a koloboyi Hon. Minister?

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: Koloboyi is a kerosene lamp. Our parents did not allow us to take money that is not ours under the pretext of poverty. Our parents developed us to who are and today, some of us can boost to be hon. Members of Parliament for Choma because our parents gave guidance. As a parent heading the Ministry of Higher Education, I would like to have students leave UNZA not only as engineers, but as fully developed people who will contribute to national development.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Livune: Koloboyi!

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Speaker, this Government which the hon. Minister says is made up of critical thinkers has been in power for seven years yet the challenges at the universities under its watch are becoming worse.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta: What does the hon. Minister think has contributed to the challenges facing the universities, including constant closures?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, definitions of words differ. My understanding of the word ‘worse’ may be different from the hon. Member’s. I do not think that the universities have become worse. If anything, they are getting better. The Government, for example, will start dismantling debt. This is historic debt, not debt owed by the PF. For the first time, the university is getting a leaf of accommodation. For the first time the country is getting more universities. We only had two universities for a long time.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lou: It is either some hon. Members do not have eyes or just want to pretend for the sake of politics. You cannot bring politics to education I am afraid.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Livune: Koloboyi!

 

Ms Mulenga: Koloboyi, koloboyi!

 

Mr Simfukwe: Madam Speaker, I want to declare interest. I agree with the hon. Minister of Higher Education that the University of Zambia (UNZA) has made a difference to many of our lives. Some of us coming from the townships of Chamboli were lifted out of poverty by UNZA.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mushimba: Eh ma lifting!

 

Mr Simfukwe: Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister from her travels has learnt, like most hon. Members, that there is almost no university that provides 100 per cent accommodation even in developed countries. Populations keep growing and you can never build enough accommodation for all students. The University of York in England is the fourth best university, but it does not have all the accommodation that is needed. Even the University of Pretoria and the University of Stellenbosch do not provide all the accommodation, but work with the communities.

 

Mr Kabanda: You are right!

 

Mr Simfukwe: At what stage are our universities going to adopt best practice in accessing security technology so that the problem of squatting is dealt with in the way other universities do it? Under their systems, students who are not supposed to be in certain buildings cannot access them.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, as if by telepathy, this morning, the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication and I were at a conference hosted by UNZA in partnership with the Ministry of Transport and Communication where we were discussing the same ideas.

 

I want to assure the hon. Member that this is one of the issues that is on the table even as we have been addressing squatting, one of the things we have said is that let us create a data base so that we even know who is where and whose is who or if they have extra people in the room. Therefore, that in trying to give additional bed space we know what is happening where by using technology.

 

Secondly, Madam Speaker, I want to agree, that is why I said let us not bring politics to education, that there is no university in the world that gives 100 per cent accommodation to students.

 

Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!

 

Prof Luo: However, since we are a caring Government, we want to be the ones to make the first step and start providing accommodation. I want to read what I said in my answer; in the long run, the ministry will ensure that the construction of hostel blocks is expedited. The ministry is also encouraging the private sector to support the Government in the provision of students’ accommodation. We have learnt our lessons and as the private sector come forward, they will be met with guidelines so that we ensure that there is honesty in the provision of these hostels and we agree on the kind of conditions that these hostels will be run.

 

I thank you.

 

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Madam Speaker, I know that some of the students that are renting rooms at some homes and not at the University of Zambia (UNZA) are using bunk beds in limited space. It seems as if the students at the UNZA Great East Road Campus have accepted to stay more than two per room as per rule. Why can the hon. Minister not take advantage of this acceptance and provide double bunk beds in these rooms and allocate legally four people per room so that there is no charging one another.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I know that the hon. Minister dealt with that part, but perhaps she can just repeat.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, in fact, we have been discussing and engaging with the different associations in the institution and it is true that the students are quite happy with the bunk bed system. That is why in my response I said that, in the short term, one of the solutions which have been agreed upon is to provide bunk beds. Let me also say, the people that really mean well, have come forward offering to provide bunk beds, only those who want to play politics will bring it here, but I am sure they have been reading online that many families are saying that they would like to come to the university and offer bunk beds. For me, that is what I would like to hear from the hon. Members of Parliament especially that the majority are from the University of Zambia. Therefore, instead of coming to politicise a straightforward thing, I would like them to be offering solutions by saying I would like to provide some rooms with bunk beds especially those hon. Members who served as Deputy Vice Chancellors for the University of Zambia.

 

I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker indeed the hon. Minister of Higher Education has a great passion and I only sympathise that that passion is misplaced in terms of who she is working with.

 

Hon PF Members: Question!

 

Mrs Chonya: I wished that she would be one of us, maybe we would find a solution to most of these problems. However …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Kafue, ask a direct question.

 

Mrs Chonya: Madam Speaker, I am aware that the Government undertook to start completing projects that are about 90 per cent finished, at least that is what the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development told us. I was not very clear on the answer that the hon. Minister gave concerning how soon they intend to complete those hostels that are at almost 90 per cent completion point? My direct question is, even as the hon. Minister is making these appeals to alumni, would the university and the Government in particular, accept financial donations towards the completion of those hostels given that this particular Government, I think, is broke.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Mrs Chonya: Would the Government accept financial donations even from hon. Members that are here in this Chamber to help alleviate the suffering of the students at the university.

 

Mr Livune: Can President HH donate?

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker sometimes I wonder in which world some people live. Hon. Member of Parliament this Government is not broke.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Prof. Luo: I think it is very important for us to appreciate that even if we are playing politics there are certain responsibilities that we have as hon. Members of Parliament. In particular, that the hon. Member, who is asking this question, is a former Permanent Secretary …

 

Mr Livune: So what?

 

Prof. Luo: …and she knows the systems and procedures that are followed when disbursing public money. I want to assure hon. Members of Parliament that the Government is on course and we held a very successful alumni launch. Those that have ears they heard. Those who want to contribute will do so. I am not going to say, can you give us some money so that I confirm your assertion.

 

Mr Livune: That is right.

 

Prof. Luo: We are saying this Government is going to be on course in ensuring that the hostels are completed. We will ensure that those who are going to participate come to participate with one heart and not to think that when they come on board then they can go and despise the Government …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister …

 

Prof. Luo: …I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … will you accept financial contributions?

 

That was the question.

 

Mr Livune: Call President Hakainde.

 

Prof. Luo: Madam Speaker, I have answered that we will accept …

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Luo: … through the alumni and from those that mean well. Those that I know do not mean well, we will not accept their contributions.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members on my left, order!

 

ZAMBIA NATIONAL BROADCASTING CORPORATION EMPLOYEES’ FEBRUARY, 2018 SALARIES

 

240. Mrs Katuta (Chienge) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting:

 

(a)        whether the Government was aware that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation employees had not been paid their salaries for February, 2018;

 

(b)        if so, when the salaries would be paid; and

 

(c)        what measures had been taken to resolve the financial challenges at the institution.

 

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Ms Siliya): Madam Speaker, as of yesterday, 14^th March, 2018, the Ministry of Finance released K10,640,000 to pay outstanding February salary arrears for Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) employees. The House may wish to note that the ministry is today, finalising the process of transfer of these funds to ZNBC through the Bank of Zambia and the corporation will, thereafter, pay the outstanding salary arrears. A press statement to this effect…

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 hours to 1830 hours.

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, before we went on break, I had already started giving the answer, but for the sake of clarity, I will start from the beginning.

 

Madam Speaker, as of yesterday, 14^th March, 2018, the Ministry of Finance released K10,640,000 to pay outstanding February salary arrears for the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) employees. The House may wish to note that the ministry is today finalising the process of transferring these funds to ZNBC through the Bank of Zambia (BOZ) and the corporation will thereafter, pay the outstanding salary arrears. A press statement to this effect was released by the ministry yesterday.

 

Madam Speaker, indeed, the ZNBC has been facing financial challenges to effectively discharge its daily operations. The House may wish to note that the corporation’s administrative expenses are higher than the revenue it generates, hence the problems being experienced. The total number of staff at the ZNBC is 541. Out of this number, 419 are unionised workers and 122 are management staff. The monthly wage Bill is K10,220,922.70 of which K6,792,587.48 is for unionised staff and K3,428,334.22 is for the management staff.

 

Madam Speaker, from the figures above, it is clear that the ZNBC is not able to meet its wage bill let alone other administrative expenses. It is against this background that the Government decided to support the institution. In the long term, the ZNBC board once appointed will be directed to review the operations of the corporation and make recommendations on how to make it more efficient and effective.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I am wondering why the Government decided to be proactive after I raised a point of order ...

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Katuta: …with regard to payment of the employees’ salaries, who have been suffering for almost two months. I wish to find out if the K10,640,000 which was released yesterday by the Ministry of Finance is the same money which is going to pay the salaries for March and the previous month? I am asking this question because these workers get paid on the 21^st of every month and they are almost in their second month. We want to know if the ZNBC workers will not face the problem that they faced in the previous month.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, as we appreciate the hon. Member of Parliament wanting to take credit for the work the Government is doing, I think the good reminder is that the Executive is on this side (right).

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, the wage bill for the ZNBC is constant every month. It is about K10,220,922.70 as I stated. It was not because of the point of order that the Government decided to resolve the issue at the ZNBC. It is because of an outstanding problem that the whole nation is aware of. In December, the Government made a decision to change the collection of television levies which are a great contributor to the revenue generation capacity for the ZNBC.

 

Madam Speaker, since the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) was not able to collect the television levy in January and February due to the change in system, there was a gap for two months. We were able to address the arrears in January, but we have taken long for February. Nevertheless, we are preparing to ensure that we work with management to ensure that we normalise the situation.

 

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kasonso (Solwezi West): Madam Speaker, what are the long term measures that the Government is putting in place to ensure that the financial challenges that the ZNBC is going through do not occur again since the Government is the major shareholder of the ZNBC. I am also aware that the ZNBC was put into a polygamous marriage with MultiChoice, TopStar Zambia and GOtv. What are the benefits of this arrangement?

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, obviously, the intervention by the Government is indeed, a short and immediate term measure. In the long term, it is expected that one of the first things we are going to do is to ensure that there is a board in place. It is best practice that there is a board in place because the board then will be mandated to provide guidance both to the Government and to the institution on the way forward.

 

Madam Speaker, of course, I am sure that the board in place will be looking at things such as the business model, staffing, investment and equipment levels for the ZNBC. The board will also be looking at the return on the investment, the kind of programming content, the structure of the media market in Zambia today and how the ZNBC can position itself and ensure that it is competitive to the consumers. The Government would like to see that once we put the board in place. The board will be able to look at these issues that I have highlighted so that we can find a lasting solution. I do not know if I should go ahead and answer the second question, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes, very briefly, hon. Minister.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, obviously, management and the board of ZNBC made business decisions to go in businesses with MultiChoice. This is where ZNBC has, if not mistaken, a 40 per cent shareholding. In fact, one of the problems that has caused the delay in salaries is because MultiChoice has not declared dividends over the last one year. They are currently in a meeting in Dubai to actually address this problem. Again, ZNBC has an interest in GOtv and the arrangement now with TopStar. All these efforts were made on the basis that they can help the institution generate extra income to meet its operational, staffing and administrative needs that it faces. I think as I have suggested, once the board is in place, they have to look at all these issues to see which ones are more profitable and probably, which ones are not so that the institution can survive.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Madam Speaker, considering that when the board is put in place together with its management, it may take time for them to stabilise and create some amount of income to the institution. I am more concerned of the next two to three months. Is the Government going to constantly fund the institution?

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, obviously, the Government has taken the initiative to fill the gap. However, like I stated, the immediate real problem has been the shortfall mainly due to lack of dividends from Multichoice Zambia and also the lack of collection of television levies for January and February by the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO). The Government is shifting from the system of using ZESCO as a collection point for television levies and is moving to the Subscriber Management System (SMS) which will require those who watch television to pay the television levy depending on which channel provider they use, whether GoTv, Kwese, Multichoice Zambia or Topstar. It is at that point that the television levy will be paid and then collected and finally remitted to Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC). Therefore, ZNBC is just experiencing a temporal problem and in the meantime, the Government will continue to fill in the gap until it stabilises. By 1^st April, we plan to completely shift the payment system of the television levy from ZESCO to the new one.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, I want to commend the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting for paying ZNBC employees their salaries after being pressured by a myriad of stakeholders. However, could she categorically catalogue any corporate governance measures the ministry has put in place including a business strategy that will help ZNBC stand on its own and can stop depending on the monies that come from the Government?

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, first of all, ZNBC has a very special role in our society. It is a public broadcaster and for this reason, we have a responsibility to support its operations as we have done. According to the ZNBC (Amendment) Act of 2010, the television levy will be remitted to ZNBC so it can continue with its operations as a public broadcaster. However, as a public broadcaster, it might not operate on a full commercial basis, but it can operate efficiently using the available resources. One of the first things that we must do in terms of good governance is to obviously appoint a board. In the meantime, ZNBC management is working tirelessly to see where they can increase efficiencies and reduce the inefficiencies. As I said, they are in Dubai with staff from Multichoice Zambia to ensure that they collect the dividends that they have not collected. This is because there is no point saying you have no money, yet someone owes you money. They are in Dubai to ensure that the dividends are collected at that board meeting. Also, once the board is appointed, then, we expect to receive a proposal of the long term measures so that we can ensure that ZNBC continues to thrive.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, ZNBC employees are on daily basis abused by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Can you, please, withdraw that statement. Do you have a question?

 

Mr Michelo: I have a question.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Then ask the question.

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, what struck the ministry for it to release the funds for ZNBC employees yesterday?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister has already answered that question. Hon. Minister, could you repeat the answer that you gave earlier.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, first of all, it is important to appreciate that ZNBC has a very important role in this country. We have to avoid these figments of imagination and believing that it is being abused. ZNBC is there to serve the citizens and it does not matter …

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: … which Government is in office. I appreciate the aspirations for people to want to be on our side. However, as long as we are here …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: … at this point of time, we will do our best to ensure that ZNBC serves the people. When a school is built in your constituency, ZNBC has to be there and report that the Government has delivered.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: When you receive the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and you build a police station, ZNBC has to be there to show the citizens …

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Siliya: … that the money they pay through taxes is being utilised. I want to take this opportunity to say that it is right to politic, but there is also the right time to politic. Right now because of ZNBC, the citizens are listening to us. We must give them information and not politic about anything. ZNBC employees have the right to leave the institution. They are not under threat or abuse. However, the Government on behalf of the people of Zambia who elected it has an interest to ensure that the institution is operating according to the law.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for bailing out ZNBC employees. In as much as we appreciate the grants being given to the ZNBC, may I find out if the Government owns ZNBC any money and why can it not pay the institution instead of giving it grants?

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, in fact, we are looking at the issue of ZNBC like any other Government institution that is in a dire situation. We want to harmonise and see who owes ZNBC any monies and we are working very closely with the hon. Minister of Finance. We took one immediate action to address the February salaries, but obviously, we have to address the March and probably April salaries before ZNBC can normalise. Furthermore, we have to look at its debt and credit situation so that we can come up with a wholesome solution.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Speaker, I would like to compliment the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting. The ‘Smart Dora’ phrase fits her this afternoon. However, does ZNBC regularly review its editorial policy so it can become more viable? The last time I asked the hon. Minister, I was talking about the aspect of the Government interfering with the operations of ZNBC.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Kafue for the wonderful compliment. I truly appreciate it. I know that it is politically common and fashionable to believe that ZNBC’s editorial policy is managed elsewhere apart from ZNBC.

 

Yes, Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) is a public institution, and I also agree that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has an interest in ZNBC because it represents the people of Zambia. However, I think that the problems of ZNBC are beyond editorial policy. The other problem is as a result of taking long or failure to respond to the current media market in the country which has brought disruption because of untraditional media.

 

Therefore, ZNBC management and the board, which is to be appointed, has to look at their threats, advantages and do a SWOT analysis so that they can determine how to position themselves as a public media. It may not operate on full commercial basis, but at least be efficient enough so that Government does not have to spend huge resources in terms of grants. Yet they can still be able to meet their objective which is serving the people of Zambia.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the information given. However, I would like to find out on the collection of television levy. I wonder what great motivation was given to allow Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) to collect television levy and yet, it is badly needed by Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) hence forcing workers to go two weeks late without pay. Does she not think that this money rightly belongs to people at ZNBC and should be collected by them?

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, first of all, let me just put the record straight that Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) has not been collecting any television levies at this moment. However, the plan is that when we, at Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) begin to collect television levies, it will be through our subscriptions to the channel providers. Then these companies such as Top Star, Multi Choice, Kwesi and so on, will remit that money to IBA for onward transmission to ZNBC. If the problem here is that IBA is involved in collecting television levy, I am happy and ready to listen to other suggestions and solutions. However, at this point in time, IBA has not collected any television levies. If they did, the money is supposed to go to ZNBC by law, anyway.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, at the risk of being guided by yourself the way you have done before …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: That is a wrong way to start already.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central, we do not have much time. Just ask a direct question and the Minister will give you an answer.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Thank you, Madam Speaker, precisely so, since I have been a Member for six years in this House, I must state facts here that, under your leadership, in the last two weeks, all of us have enjoyed freedom of speech.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: This is the way this House should be.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: This is the way this House should be.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central and order hon. Minister.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: He wants to raise a point of order on one’s enjoyment.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, it does not help at all when you start discussing Presiding Officers. I would like you to refrain from doing that. You have your role in this august House which is to represent the people of Choma, the Executive have their role to respond and to be held accountable and the Presiding Officers, headed by the Hon. Mr Speaker, have a role to provide the leadership, ensure order and integrity in the House. Therefore, it will not do hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central to begin to debate Presiding Officers. Please, refrain from that.

 

You may continue with your question.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, and it is precisely that kind of advice which compels me to appreciate the same.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: The hon. Minister indicated that the wage bill for Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) is higher than what it is able to generate as an institution. I am aware that ZNBC is rocked with a number of problems including inter alia, the fact that the institution now can no longer provide transport to its workers. It cannot provide a bus to go round to collect its workers instead, workers are using saloon cars.

 

According to my investigations, which is away from ZNBC, but well informed about what is happening there, I have come to understand that ZNBC as an entity, which in part should sustain itself through its commercial viability, can no longer do the same because its content is frowned upon …

 

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Mr Mweetwa: … by the citizens because it is programmes are just about Patriotic Front (PF).

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central, I am restraining myself from curtailing you. I am giving one chance …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: The last chance!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … for you to ask a direct question. Please, ask a direct question so that the hon. Minister can respond.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I am much obliged for your guidance, Madam Speaker. What is the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting doing, to ensure that workers at ZNBC, even if they rely on Government grants for operations as an institution, can also viably operate commercially because they should attract citizens unlike now when citizens frown upon ZNBC because they see it as a PF mouthpiece? The PF which is distasteful to the citizens!

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I am grateful for that question because I think it gives me an opportunity to explain properly once and for all.

 

In a democracy, a government is elected by the people. In a multi-democracy a party makes Government. At this point in time, it is the party called the Patriotic Front (PF) representing the people.

 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: If, indeed, Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) was doing so poorly as a public broadcaster for the people of Zambia, there would be no interest especially by our colleagues on your left Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: There would be no interest in ZNBC. However, it is because ZNBC does so well for one reason and one reason only, outreach services. It has to reach all the people of Zambia at any given time so that the people know how their money is being spent. To see the Head of State opening a school or any form of infrastructure on ZNBC television is morally correct because the people must know how their resources are being used.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: If you were there in the 1970s, you saw United National Independence Party (UNIP) on television. If you were there in the 1990s to the early 2000s you saw Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). Now it is PF.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I want to make this very clear, in terms of multi-party politics, I think it is important to note that we must do everything possible for the people to elect us. When they do, we will have the same opportunity to work with ZNBC like the PF Government is working with ZNBC now.

 

Madam Speaker, I believe that the content of ZNBC is not an issue. I am saying so because when I am in my rural constituency, people there watch ZNBC. Therefore, I am pleased that you have asked that question my colleague the former University of Zambia Student Union (UNZASU) President.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Siliya: However, we have to understand that what we are trying to do now is a competition. This party wants to get into government and that party wants to do the same, but we must also accept, Madam Speaker, that …

 

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hold on, hon. Minister.

 

Hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central you had your time and you put up quite a show. Allow the Minister to do the same.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister may continue.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, one of the achievements this country has attained as a democracy is the proliferation of the media in Zambia. Nobody can say they have been denied access to the media in Zambia. Even those, who get very little air time on the Zambian National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) have at least been allowed to on Sunday interview once in a while.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya:  Madam, it is okay. We do not expect them to be featuring on ZNBC all the time because first and foremost, there is a Government with a President and Executive, who also need the same airtime on behalf of the people of Zambia.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I want to leave this point without leaving any doubt that a Government in a party, Government in office needs a mouth piece. No wonder there is a position of the Government spokesperson and, therefore, I need a mouth piece. However, it does not mean that citizens, Opposition leaders or Opposition parties have no access to other media, they do. Until they are able to sit on this side of the House of the hon. Mr Speaker, they have to accept that there is a Government and the Government that must work.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Madam Speaker, there is no doubt that the Government currently owes many parastatal companies a lot of money. As a result of that, many parastatal companies are now limping. Of course, we are aware that every party in power has taken advantage of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), but the problem that we have is that the current Government is failing to pay ZNBC workers. In the light of other television stations coming up, is it not high time or an eye open to run ZNBC as a business so that the Government can reduce on the Government programmes by stopping to fund ZNBC.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I have tried very hard to be very clear that ZNBC is a public broadcaster. It serves the citizens and the citizens are served through the Government, which they elect. Yes, we all have an interest to make sure that ZNBC runs as efficiently as possible, but we have also agreed as a nation through the ZNBC Act that even if it does not run commercially, it must be supported through the laws, which were passed in this House that it must be supported. It is for this reason that we even prescribed the TV Levy in this august House by understanding all of us as law makers that we have to support ZNBC. We knew that sometimes it will face commercial competition and as a result, it has to be helped by the Government, which was elected by the people.

 

Madam, , there are many institutions which are having problems in this country, but I do not think that it is rocket science that the country has not experienced the external and internal shocks. There has been a world economic crisis for the last two years and it did not spare Zambia. As a result of that, the Government even took some austerity measures. Since ZNBC has been having these challenges, it opted to review the systems in the operations of ZNBC so that it can be a bit more efficient. The increasing of the levy from K3 to K5 is part of the process to show appreciation the role that ZNBC plays.

 

Madam Speaker, maybe, a few of us in this august House do not recognise that, but Zambians appreciate and therefore, we have to do everything possible to ensure that the institution survives. Let us not be like those people, who throw bath water with the baby. When it does not suit them they are against it. When it goes well with them, then, they want the institution. Let us not be those kinds of people. Let us just work hard and pray that one day, Zambians might look upon us with favour although, I do not know in which dreams, but right now, the favour is on this side of the House.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the response. For avoidance of doubt and not to belabour the point as hon. Members on your left have been doing, I would like to know the assurance the hon. Minister is going to give to the people of Zambia, who hold ZNBC in high esteem and treasure the staff at ZNBC for the good job they do.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: What assurance is the Government going to give the nation that the challenge ZNBC has been going through will not recur?

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, when we talk about the infrastructure development on this side of the House, some people believe that it is part of just talking the talk. Currently, we are renovating studios at the ZNBC in Lusaka and in Kitwe. We are also constructing six new provincial studios. Therefore, we are not just going to provide new technology and efficiency to ZNBC, but this will create the jobs that the majority of the Zambians are looking for. We are trying to make sure that investment in Information and Communication Technology (ICT) with the Ministry of Transport and Communication to use the best technology available even for ZNBC so that it does not lose completely its position in the media market in the country. All the Bills we have brought before the House for ICT have been to facilitate the better radio wave transmission in the country, and this is what will help ZNBC.

 

Madam, even when we provided for one signal distributor, its intention is to create digital dividends such as online businesses and so on as so forth so that it can be used for other businesses, especially among our young people. Therefore, we have invested quite a lot. It is for this reason that I want to assure ZNBC in particular that once phases I and II of the digital migration are complete, we are going to have new jobs, more efficiency, new machinery, better training for our staff and we will ensure that a new business model befitting the current times by the board to be appointed is put in place so that ZNBC can continue to serve the citizens of Zambia. Therefore, the challenges we are having now are temporary problems.

 

Madam Speaker, I am quite confident and I would like to assure the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya that very soon, these will be issues of the past.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, in asking a follow-up question to the hon. Minister, I would like to take the sentiments of my young brother, Hon. Mweetwa as my own.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, the hon. Minister …

 

Mr Mweetwa: He is a good speaker.

 

Mr Nkombo: … is aware that one Opposition political leader who answers to the name ‘Dr Nevers Mumba,’ who was in the same political party with the hon. Minister at one point in not so distant a past is being persecuted …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, the question relates to the payment of salaries for ZNBC employees. Focus on that question.

 

Mr Nkombo: Fine, thank you. Madam Speaker, I would like to thank you for the guidance.

 

Mr Mweetwa: He is a good speaker!

 

Mr Nkombo: I think that it is also true that depending where one is standing, the world is seen differently.

 

Madam, the hon. Minister indicated that the Opposition has taken interest in ZNBC because it is providing a good service. This is where I am coming from. Nevertheless, I would like to confirm to the hon. Minister that I do watch ZNBC. The only reason I stood up today is my K5, which I contribute to ZNBC every month.

 

Hon. Government Members: So what!

 

Nkombo: Some green horn is saying so what. I need your protection, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Ask your question, hon. Member.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the debilitation of the ZNBC to the extent of failing to pay salaries maybe attributed to the patronisation of the same institution by the Patriotic Front (PF) because factually, it is only under the PF Government, where the ZNBC has had to be given an order from court …

 

Mr Mweetwa: Imagine!

 

Mr Nkombo: … to air programmes from the Opposition political parties.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I would like the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting to be honest in responding to my question. Going by what I said that it had to take a court order, which was also defied, the hon. Minister served in the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) Government in the same capacity and she is now serving in the PF administration in the same capacity.

 

According to the hon. Minister, in what era did the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) experience what it is going through today? The corporation had been debilitated and annihilated, hence the failure to pay its employees their salaries.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, first of all, let me also put it on record that in 2001, I was in the same Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) party with my colleague there.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, whether the hon. Member of Parliament watches ZNBC or not, the fact that he has a television  set in his House means that he still enjoys a public asset …

 

Dr Wanchinga’s phone rang.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection! I… the hon. Minister will continue.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I was saying that whatever television channel the hon. Member of Parliament watches in his home, he is enjoying a public good or asset because every television uses radio waves and that is why he has to pay the K5 television levy. Therefore, he is not paying that fee to watch ZNBC. It is very important to note that this is a television levy and not a ZNBC levy.

 

Madam Speaker, the management at ZNBC is always at pains, especially during elections, to determine how to accept certain materials, especially coming from the opposition parties. It is fine to politick and belong to different parties, but there must be some modicum of decency. If my memory serves me right, there were some adverts in the past that came from an opposition party which were deemed to be indecent. The Government must be the first one to champion decency in this country.

 

Madam Speaker, individually, what we do in our own lives may be different, but the public expects certain good from public institutions like ZNBC. This is why my colleague, the hon. Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance, was very adamant on defining what good and bad entertain is. I think ZNBC has the same responsibility. Therefore, even when we do our politics, there must be some decency in the adverts we take to the nation through ZNBC, even if we want to become presidents. If today one can use unpalatable words and tomorrow say that they want to be president, people will begin to question our sanity. Those are the issues regarding ZNBC and I think it uses moral judgment, whether there is a court order or not, to determine what should be aired. It is alright to argue emotionally and passionately, but let us do so with decency.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, the slogan of the national broadcaster is; when you pay, it will show. What exactly is supposed to show?

 

Laughter

 

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. Minister has taken an oath to preserve and uphold the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Article 60 of the Constitution is very clear that all political parties shall have the right of coverage to disseminate information and their ideologies. In order to ensure inclusiveness, would the hon. Minister tell the nation through this august House that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) will be able to allocate minimum coverage time for all political parties come election time, so that as people will be paying the television levy, they will be able to see different faces and not only those for Patriotic Front (PF) members?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The substantive question is on employee salaries for the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC).

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

­­__________

 

MOTION

 

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, LANDS AND NATURAL RESOURCES ON THE REPORT OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL ON SUSTAINABLE FOREST MANAGEMENT

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources on the report of the Auditor-General on sustainable forest management for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 20^th February, 2018.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Yes, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

 

Mr Ng’onga: Madam Speaker, based on its terms of reference, your Committee considered the report of the Auditor-General on sustainable forest management. In considering the audit report, your Committee invited various stakeholders to present both oral and written submissions. I presume that hon. Members have had an opportunity to read your Committee’s report. I will, therefore, only highlight a few issues from the report.

 

Madam Speaker, forests are among the most important natural resources Zambia has. According to the National Forest Policy of 2014, forests cover 66 per cent of the total land area of Zambia, translating into approximately 49.97 million ha, of which 4.8 million hactres are gazetted forest reserves. Out of the total area classified as forest reserves, 44 per cent is set aside for production, 30 per cent for both protection and production and the remaining 26 per cent is for protection only. The whole estate occurs on both state and customary lands.

 

Madam Speaker, it is sad to note that the forest sub-sector faces challenges in terms of maintenance and management, leading to overharvesting, degradation of natural habitats through uncontrolled fires and the use of destructive and unsustainable harvesting methods, among many others.

 

Madam Speaker, from the onset, let me say that your Committee recognises that the Government has an important role to play in ensuring sustainable management of forest resources. This includes putting in place appropriate policies, legislation and regulations to govern forest management, investment, research and development, among others. The Government further provides financial and human resources to the Forestry Department for it to function effectively. It is, therefore, commendable that the Auditor-General found it fit to carry out this important audit, whose findings go a long way in enhancing the management of our forestry resources.

 

Madam Speaker, let me now turn to some of the findings of the Auditor-General. The Auditor-General’s report revealed that regulations to facilitate management of the forests have not been put in place, making it difficult to manage the resource. The report has also revealed that there is inadequate monitoring of harvesting activities, mainly as a result of lack of forest guards and inadequate extension officers to monitor and protect the forests. There is also lack of transport and inadequate and delayed funding to the Forestry Department.

 

Madam Speaker, the audit report has further revealed that forest management plans were not in place as the preparation of the management plans was totally dependent on an updated forest inventory both at national and local level. Without this knowledge, the Forestry Department was not able to come up with management plans. Your Committee was informed that the reason for not having forest management plans was due to lack of basic information such as size of forests, harvestable stock and boundaries of forests as resources such as funds, human resource and equipment to conduct the exercise were not available. Your Committee is greatly concerned that such important information is lacking and wonders what kind of forest management is taking place without this important data. Your Committee further wonders how timber concession licences are issued without knowing the size of forests that are available. Your Committee therefore, strongly recommends that the Forestry Department develop forest management plans to ensure that there is sustainable management of  the forests in the country.

 

Madam Speaker, let me touch on another burning issue that your Committee is equally concerned about, which is the increase in the illegal trading of endangered species such as mukula and mukwa trees as revealed in the report. Your Committee is of the view that this should not be allowed to continue and recommends that the Government expedites the appointment of honorary forest officers and engage with the traditional authorities and the local communities to help beef up staffing levels in the Forestry Department.

 

Madam Speaker, another issue is the lack of coordination and consultation among the various stakeholders such as traditional leaders, Forestry Department, communities and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Your Committee observed that this has led to licences being issues in an uncoordinated manner without regard to the authority given to the traditional leaders to sanction any issuance of licences in their chiefdoms. In this regard, your Committee strongly urges the Government to implement measures to ensure that the key stakeholders in the forestry sub-sector work in collaboration with one another so that forests are given priority in terms of protection and maintenance.

 

Madam Speaker, as I conclude, allow me to thank the witnesses who appeared before your Committee and the office of the Auditor-General for their cooperation in providing the necessary information that was used in considering the audit report.

 

Your Committee also wishes to record its indebtedness to you, Madam Speaker and the office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the guidance rendered during the deliberations.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Mrs Mazoka: Now, Madam. Speaker.

 

Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to second the Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Natural Resources, on the Report of the Auditor-General on Sustainable Forest Management for the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Tuesday, 20^th February, 2018.

 

First, allow me to thank the Chairperson of the Committee for having ably moved the Motion.

 

Madam Speaker, the Chairperson has already pointed out the salient issues that caught the attention of your Committee during their deliberations. Therefore, I will not spend too much time on those issues.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee notes from the report that during the period under review, the Forestry Department carried out a joint operation with the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) in Lusaka Province. A review of the report on the activity revealed that some concessionaires were harvesting timber in excess of their licence limit. The failure by the Forestry Department to carry out monitoring and control has led to illegal activities by the concessionaires resulting in loss of revenue for the Government and destruction of the forests due to the use of unsustainable harvesting practices. If this trend is left unchecked, Zambia will become a desert very soon. It is, therefore, necessary that the Forestry Department moves in to monitor and control the operations of the concessionaires.

 

In addition, your Committee observed that the forest sector was undervalued and that if it had been properly managed, it could have contributed more to the country’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP). There is need to recognise the forestry sector as a priority sector and scale up incentives to the local communities and the traditional leadership in order for them to appreciate the value derived from the forests as this will encourage them to protect the forest and forest reserves.

 

Madam Speaker, it is imperative that the Government encourages community forest management to enable participatory forest management that will ensure sustainability and increased biological diversity and ecological integrity of forests.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, the issue of the sale of the confiscated mukula trees by the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) Limited needs to be addressed. There has been an outcry from members of the public over the manner in which the decision to allow only ZAFFICO to sell the confiscated trees to the Chinese companies that are allowed to export them was arrived at. It is your Committee’s view that this decision should be rescinded and an amicable solution found after wide consultations with stakeholders.

 

Madam, I wish to pay tribute to your Committee for the manner in which it conducted its deliberations and observed the views of all the witnesses who appeared before it. Your Committee made recommendations which in its view, are in the best interest of the people of Zambia.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker and I beg to second.

 

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke): Madam Speaker, I thank the Committee for its report. First of all, I want to say that since 1948, when the Forestry Department was created, there has never been a situation where Zambia’s forests are a free resource. Everybody has access to this resource. There is no capacity anywhere in this country for the management of Zambia’s forest resources. There is not even a single forest in Zambia today which is sustainably managed. There is none. The plantations under the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) are not on a sustainable management programme.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Speaker, the Integrated Land Use Assessment Report (ILUMA) which came out last year is very clear about the problems which the sector is facing. We have, in place, a Forest Policy of 2014 and the Forest Act of 2015. Both documents are very well written and up to date in terms of the way our forest resources must be managed. However, there is no evidence that the Forest Policy in Zambia, as articulated in the document, is being implemented. There is also no evidence to show that the Forest Act is being enforced anywhere. That is why we have this unprecedented level of illegal harvesting of trees. Even the people we favour with licenses are not monitored, as the report says. They are cutting trees every week. We cannot continue on this path. We are endangering the future generations in terms of sustainability of the environment.

 

Madam Speaker, we keep talking about capacity, but it appears we are not seeing any action. The figures speak for themselves. By December, 2017, the establishment of the Forestry Department had 962 officers. There were only 400 positions which were filled to manage more than 470 forest reserves in the country. How possible is that? This small number of staff has no facilities. Sesheke is one of the districts with a very large forest area and it only has one vehicle which is usually in the garage. How then can those charged with the responsibility of managing the forest resources manage to do their work? Today, everybody is involved in cutting tress and exporting them. Most of the institutions which are supposed to safeguard our resources and man our borders to stop exports are compromised. Everybody is involved in one thing or the other to try and defraud this country of its forest resources.

 

Madam Speaker, how is it possible that we ban the export of logs for more than two years now, but still allow ZAFFICO to export these logs? How did we appoint ZAFFICO to be exporting the logs? The Forest Act is very clear and it states that all forest products which are seized by the state can only be disposed of after a court order. That is very clear. Therefore, how does ZAFFICO, a parastatal which was formed with a sole purpose of dealing in soft woods for the construction industry, become a trader? Its own production of logs has gone down from 750,000 cu m per annum to about 130,000 cu m. That is because ZAFICCO is no longer focusing on its core business. Instead it is making easy money from selling Mukula logs.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Speaker, the Forest Act also talks about participatory forest management. This means that the communities must be involved in the management of forest resources. That should happen through the formation of village or community forest management groups. No serious effort is being made to form these groups, which would help the Forestry Department, which is so depleted, to try and control the illegal harvesting of timber. It is very painful to see what is happening in this industry.

 

Madam Speaker, this country was one of the best in this region in the management of forest resources. However, today, there is no management of forests, not even the forest boundaries. They are just not there. Anybody can walk into the forest and the forester will not know where the boundary is. This is where we are.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee has talked about harvesting plants. That can only be done when you have permanent plots where you can measure these things on a regular basis. That way, you would be able to determine how much they are growing and how much can be cut. That is how it is done. The ILUMA Report that I referred to earlier has set a basic foundation for us to start afresh. I hope that the ministry will take advantage of that report and start using the information contained therein to restart the Forestry Department in this country. At the moment, that department is completely depleted.

 

Madam Speaker, in other sectors such as the Ministry of Health, they recruit or recall some of the retired people to come and render a service to the nation. Why can this not be done in the Forestry Department or sector? It takes more than three years to train a forest ranger or a forester. In the meantime, we can increase the capacity of the department by recruiting retired people on short term contracts to restudy this. I am aware that even at the Copperbelt University (CBU), the Forestry Department is under-resourced. We know that the graduates who are coming from there need a lot of help because the department is under-resourced. That also needs a lot of help.

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke): Madam Speaker, I thank the Committee for its report. First of all, I want to say that since 1948, when the Forestry Department was created, there has never been a situation where Zambia’s forests are a free resource. Everybody has access to this resource. There is no capacity anywhere in this country for the management of Zambia’s forest resources. There is not even a single forest in Zambia today which is sustainably managed. There is none. The plantations under the Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) are not on a sustainable management programme.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Speaker, the Integrated Land Use Assessment Report (ILUMA) which came out last year is very clear about the problems which the sector is facing. We have, in place, a Forest Policy of 2014 and the Forest Act of 2015. Both documents are very well written and up to date in terms of the way our forest resources must be managed. However, there is no evidence that the Forest Policy in Zambia, as articulated in the document, is being implemented. There is also no evidence to show that the Forest Act is being enforced anywhere. That is why we have this unprecedented level of illegal harvesting of trees. Even the people we favour with licenses are not monitored, as the report says. They are cutting trees every week. We cannot continue on this path. We are endangering the future generations in terms of sustainability of the environment.

 

Madam Speaker, we keep talking about capacity, but it appears we are not seeing any action. The figures speak for themselves. By December, 2017, the establishment of the Forestry Department had 962 officers. There were only 400 positions which were filled to manage more than 470 forest reserves in the country. How possible is that? This small number of staff has no facilities. Sesheke is one of the districts with a very large forest area and it only has one vehicle which is usually in the garage. How then can those charged with the responsibility of managing the forest resources manage to do their work? Today, everybody is involved in cutting tress and exporting them. Most of the institutions which are supposed to safeguard our resources and man our borders to stop exports are compromised. Everybody is involved in one thing or the other to try and defraud this country of its forest resources.

 

Madam Speaker, how is it possible that we ban the export of logs for more than two years now, but still allow ZAFFICO to export these logs? How did we appoint ZAFFICO to be exporting the logs? The Forest Act is very clear and it states that all forest products which are seized by the state can only be disposed of after a court order. That is very clear. Therefore, how does ZAFFICO, a parastatal which was formed with a sole purpose of dealing in soft woods for the construction industry, become a trader? Its own production of logs has gone down from 750,000 cu m per annum to about 130,000 cu m. That is because ZAFICCO is no longer focusing on its core business. Instead it is making easy money from selling Mukula logs.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Speaker, the Forest Act also talks about participatory forest management. This means that the communities must be involved in the management of forest resources. That should happen through the formation of village or community forest management groups. No serious effort is being made to form these groups, which would help the Forestry Department, which is so depleted, to try and control the illegal harvesting of timber. It is very painful to see what is happening in this industry.

 

Madam Speaker, this country was one of the best in this region in the management of forest resources. However, today, there is no management of forests, not even the forest boundaries. They are just not there. Anybody can walk into the forest and the forester will not know where the boundary is. This is where we are.

 

Madam Speaker, your Committee has talked about harvesting plants. That can only be done when you have permanent plots where you can measure these things on a regular basis. That way, you would be able to determine how much they are growing and how much can be cut. That is how it is done. The ILUMA Report that I referred to earlier has set a basic foundation for us to start afresh. I hope that the ministry will take advantage of that report and start using the information contained therein to restart the Forestry Department in this country. At the moment, that department is completely depleted.

 

Madam Speaker, in other sectors such as the Ministry of Health, they recruit or recall some of the retired people to come and render a service to the nation. Why can this not be done in the Forestry Department or sector? It takes more than three years to train a forest ranger or a forester. In the meantime, we can increase the capacity of the department by recruiting retired people on short term contracts to restudy this. I am aware that even at the Copperbelt University (CBU), the Forestry Department is under-resourced. We know that the graduates who are coming from there need a lot of help because the department is under-resourced. That also needs a lot of help.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, we have to focus on increasing the capacity of the forest department to do its work. In its current form, it can neither implement the Forest Policy nor enforce the Forest Act.

 

Mr Ngulube interjected.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kufakwandi: There is no other starting point. Secondly, we must now focus on managing the forestry resources as I said before.

 

Mr Ngulube handed Mr Kufakwandi a bottle of water.

 

Mr Kufakwandi drank some water.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: He is my assistant.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Speaker, we must focus on managing forestry resources, not only the forests themselves, but the forestry sector as a whole. We are focusing on export bans, but I have never heard about any analysis of the forestry industry in Zambia. Is it capable of doing what we want? We are busy taking all the good logs out of Zambia.

 

Mr Kambita: Hammer!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Later on we shall discover that our forests are not sufficient to support our forestry industry. The Chinese who are taking all this stuff must be told to setup the industries here.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: It does not take more than twelve months to setup forestry sawmills. Trees are natural capital and every Zambian should have access through the location where they were born. That is why a national registration card (NRC) is very important. It tells you where you can claim a forest. It shows you where you came from.

 

Mr Ngulube: I thank you!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Speaker, thirdly, we need a programme. I was happy that Luapula Province had a line to support to forest industries in the Budget. I was very happy when I saw that. We must support the Zambian locals and enable them to take charge of the forestry industry in this country not only with skills, but also with finance.

 

Madam Speaker, there is a Forestry Development Fund in the Act, but I do not know how far the Government has gone with that. That should be the resource which should be used for this purpose.

 

Mr Ngulube: I thank you!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kufakwandi: We need moratorium where we can organise the forestry department and start afresh. Nobody should be allowed to export anything. I read in the newspapers that logs go bad when they stay for one year. Where does that come from? That is natural drying. We need to have moratorium so that we have enough time to organise the forestry department. We should have district forestry officers who are empowered with resources, staff and vehicles to do their jobs. We are focusing too much on Chinese exports. We need to reorganise the forestry sector.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Speaker, this is a very important report. The follow up by the Auditor General’s Office on your report of 2013, which covered these issues is highly commendable. It clearly shows that your reports are taken very seriously by other offices in the country and that we are raising extremely important issues that affect the wellbeing of our nation.

 

Madam Speaker, it is generally acknowledged that the forests are the lungs of planet earth because the forests absorb carbon dioxide and remit oxygen into the atmosphere. Forests are, therefore, extremely important to the survival of the human race.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Livune: That is right!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: The destruction of forest cover is destruction of the survival of the human race.

 

Madam Speaker, available evidence indicates that between 1990 and 2015, the world lost 3 per cent of its forest cover. This means that as the human race, we are on our way to self extinction because we are destroying a very important component of our survival as a human race. Africa contributes 17 per cent to the world forest cover and Zambia contributes significantly to that 17 per cent.

 

Madam Speaker, the forests where viewed as important resources even by the colonial Government and that is why most of the 483 forestry reserves were mapped. In addition, our country was clearly mapped in terms of water sheds consisting of forest cover whose importance is to preserve our rivers and lakes. Right from the establishment or formation of this country by the colonial government, forests where seen as an important resource, hence, the establishment of the department of forestry and the like.

 

Madam Speaker, the problem is that as a nation we have not taken forests as an important resource to the overall development of our economy. We have been, as it were, been blinded by the mining sector. Our mind set has been more attuned to the extractive industry of mining at the exclusion of the importance of the forestry sector as a vital aspect of the economy.

 

Madam Speaker, it is generally acknowledged world over that forestry contributes a lot to the well being of communities. It is out of the forest that we have our timber, fuel and medicinal herbs which contribute significantly to the development of the pharmaceutical industry.

 

It is out of the forest that rainfall can be determined by the forest cover. The forest cover protects our rivers and lakes. There many benefits of our forests including food and fruits which come out of the forest, but as a nation, we have to a large extent, and must admit this honestly, paid a blind eye to this very important resource.

 

Madam Speaker, this report in my view, is a wakeup call …

 

Mr Livune: Hmm!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: …to all of us in this room. It is a wakeup call to open our eyes and our minds to the importance of our forest cover and give it the prominence that it deserves. It is extremely sad that the Forestry Department does not have the capacity first of all, to understand this important resource which we have, in terms of its quantity, quality and its magnitude. That is a shame. It is very sad that this Forestry Department is only in name and not in qualitative operation. It does not have the capacity for research to understand our forest cover and the different species in it. It does not have the database for that. It does not even have the equipment to help understand our trees or forest cover; it does not have the personnel. In other words, we have a department which is extremely incapacitated and can easily be taken advantage of by those who understand the forestry industry and its benefits. Hence, we have actually been taken advantage of by those who come to invest in our forestry sector who know the value of different trees and species that we have in this country. Zambia is rich.

 

Madam Speaker, a few years ago, we debated in here, the value of the devils crow, a very special species only found in our country. Those who are collecting the devils crow from our country here have been able to manufacture drugs for the treatment of arthritis. They are making money out of our forestry product in front of our eyes. That is how unfortunate we are as a nation. As leaders of this country, we have no knowledge of our God given resource.

 

Mr Livune: That is right.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: That is extremely sad. I think it is time to wake up from our slumber of dependency on the mining industry...

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: …and critically look at this resource and see how best we can benefit from it.

 

Mr Kamboni: Hammer, hammer!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We must begin to tell the foreigners who are here that there is no way they can come all the way from China and trade in timber. That should be brought to a stop. Timber trading should be a reservoir for us as nationals of this country. We must do it. We must make a u-turn and change the way we look at our forests…

 

Mr Kamboni: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: …and begin to see how best to develop policies and plans, and training for the forestry sector so that it can operate and serve especially our poor rural communities.

 

With these few words, Madam Speaker, I wish to thank you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

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The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 16^th March, 2018.

 

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