- Home
- About Parliament
- Members
- Committees
- Publications
- Speaker's Rulings
- Communication from the Speaker
- Order Paper
- Debates and Proceedings
- Votes and Proceedings
- Budget
- Presidential Speeches
- Laws of Zambia
- Ministerial Statements
- Library E-Resources
- Government Agreements
- Framework
- Members Handbook
- Parliamentary Budget Office
- Research Products
- Sessional Reports
Wednesday, 13th December, 2017
Wednesday, 13th December, 2017
The House met at 0900 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
_____________
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
STUDENT PROTESTS AT THE COPPERBELT UNIVERSITY
103. Mr Mweetwa (Choma) asked the Minister of Higher Education:
- what circumstances led to protests and eventual death of a student at the Copperbelt University (CBU) between Friday, 8th and Sunday, 10th December, 2017;
- how many students were injured during the protests;
- how many students were arrested; and
- what measures had been taken to avoid a recurrence of the protests.
The Minister of Higher Education (Prof. Luo): Mr Speaker, contrary to the reports circulating on social media, there were no deaths recorded during or after the student protests between 8th and 10th December, 2017, at the Copperbelt University (CBU).
Sir, the protests were over perceived delays in the payment of meal allowances for Term Two. This august House may wish to note that the CBU Riverside Campus opened for Term Two on 19th November, 2017, while the Medical School at Ndola Campus opened a bit earlier. Further, the payment of allowances started at the Medical School because the leadership there had so requested because the students had been in school longer and it was only proper to pay them first. This information was communicated to the Copperbelt University Students Union (COBUSU) at the Riverside Campus. Unfortunately, the student leadership at Riverside Campus misinformed the student populace through the Publicity Secretary that the Bursaries Committee would delay the payment of allowances because the Government was broke. It was upon reading that communication that the students started the violent protests on 5th December, 2017.
Sir, as this House now aware, in the past, violent student protests have almost been precipitated by external influences. Similarly, there are indications that a lot of external influence to drive personal agendas were behind the protests at the CBU last week.
Mr Speaker, at around 2300 hours on Friday, 8th December, 2017, a small clique of students went to the Blue Gums area and started stoning the police and passersby. Efforts to identify them have not yielded any fruit because I am told that they wore masks. Earlier, during the protest on Tuesday, 5th December, 2017, two students were injured after one fell while running and the other developed an allergic reaction after inhaling tear gas fumes and was taken to Kitwe Central Hospital (KCH). The latter was discharged the following day. Further, on Friday, 8th December, 2017, seven students were injured during the protests, with the injuries ranging from a dislocated shoulder, friction, thermal burns from discharged tear gas canisters, general body swellings and minor ulcerations on the bodies. Of the seven students who were injured, two were admitted at the KCH and discharged by morning on Monday, 11th December, 2017.
Sir, during the protest on 8th December, 2017, fifty-five students were arrested, but released on police bond by Sunday, 10th December, 2017. I must say that most of the students who were arrested are innocent because the perpetrators of violence usually run away from campus afterwards. This fact is known to the students.
Mr Speaker, my ministry and the CBU Management continue to implement proactive measures to avert protests at the university. The measures include improvement of the interface and communication between management and students. In this regard, the university has been holding retreats at which students are engaged on matters affecting their wellbeing, and that has led to improved dialogue between management and students. The management has also been attending to students’ concerns promptly, as exhibited by the reinstallation of entertainment and news platforms in a central location to enhance student interaction. Further, recently, the ministry and the Chaplain of the university engaged students on the importance of peace, violence free communication and dialogue.
Sir, to prevent a repeat of the occurrences of 8th to 10th December, 2017, the university has suspended some student union members because it is clear that they deliberately caused the riots by misinforming their membership. An interim body comprising six members of the student judiciary body has been set up to maintain student interface with management. This measure will help us to instil a sense of responsibility in the student leaders with regard to their mandate. The management has also cautioned the Office of the Dean of Students against handling matters relating to student welfare casually, as the office is key to student-management interface. Further, as the responsible Minister, I have stressed to the students the need for dialogue and violent-free resolution of grievances because, in the absence of dialogue, property of innocent members of the public gets damaged and innocent students get arrested for it while the culprits run away.
Sir, since I was appointed, I have kept the door of my office open policy. So, most students have access to me by telephone and can call me at almost any time, including as late as midnight.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned the Copperbelt University Students Union (COBUSU) in her response. However, I did not hear her state the status of the union. Has COBUSU been dissolved like we were told before the protest? If so, does the hon. Minister not think that such a move by management or her office is manifestly devoid of merit and justification in a democratic setup like ours, where the right to belong to a group that promotes a common interest is entrenched in Article 21 of the Republican Constitution? The union served as a platform for promoting dialogue among students, and management and the Government.
Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, one of the dangers in this country is social media, on which people propagate incorrect information. What I have said on the Floor of this House is that we had suspended the activities of the students union at the University of Zambia (UNZA) and Mulungushi University (MU). At no time did I say that we had suspended the activities of COBUSU. Like I said, information was communicated to CBU students through the union. However, after being convinced that the riot had been perpetrated by the union, we suspended some of the student leaders.
Sir, as I have said before in this House, there are many ways representing students in a university. It is not only through unions. Further, when the students unions have met me, I have asked them whether the problems of the universities all revolve around student allowances because my travels around the country have shown me that there are many other issues we need to address, which the student leadership should bring to my attention. The problems I identified include inadequate teaching space and sanitation.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister consider the riots politically-motivated?
Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, let me use the privilege of being on this Floor to tell my colleagues in different parties that we should hold our institutions of higher learning in high esteem in this country. As I stated yesterday, education is a precursor to development. So, until we start valuing it, we will not value our institutions of higher learning. We need to keep our political activities away from institutions of higher learning and leave the students to focus on education. Unfortunately, most riots are instigated by external forces. In fact, I have engaged some of the people who have instigated riots in the past. In short, yes, there was some external influence.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, what measures will the Government put in place to ensure that there are no riots at the Copperbelt University (CBU) and the University of Zambia (UNZA) every time there is a delay in the payment of meal allowances? Why does the Government wait until the students riot before giving them their dues?
Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, there has not been any significant delays in the payment of meal allowances by the Bursaries Committee (BC) in the past few months. The problem is that we believe that the allowances are an entitlement. No wonder, I have told the students to read what the Constitution says on this issue. As Minister, I can only disburse money that my ministry is given. That is why I have told the leadership in the universities to continue explaining to the students that their money will be given to them eventually, even if there is a delay of one week or two. We inform students on what is happening in the ministry on a daily or weekly basis because that is our mandate.
Sir, we are changing the manner in which leadership will be provided in universities and we have engaged our people to put in place consultative processes. Once we have finished that and agreed on the type of leadership we need to have in the future, you will see a change. Those of us who read about what happens in other countries may recall that Makerere University is one of the African universities that had the problem of frequent riots. However, peace was achieved as soon as the university took a different approach to the institution of student leadership. I think we equally need to try a different mode of representing student interests. We need a leadership that will look at problems in universities from a holistic perspective, not one that focuses only on meal allowances from the BC. For example, some of the students arrested during the riots are not even on bursaries while others are international students. In fact, as Minister, that is my brief. I am not a Minister of student allowances, but of everything that concerns the welfare of students. Currently, we are consulting students from different universities on how we will manage the affairs of the institutions. Once we agree on the way forward, I will issue a statement to this august House.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, what measures is the hon. Minister taking in light of the violence that was perpetrated against Copperbelt University (CBU) students? Members of the public and Government institutions, including the Human Rights Commission (HRC), have expressed their concern over police brutality at the university. Further, given the reports that the police sexually molested girls at the university during the policing exercise, will the hon. Minister, who is an advocate of women’s and girls’ rights, and the Government ensure that the brutality does not recur? Will an independent investigation be conducted on the violence against and sexual harassment of students by the police so that the two atrocious practices are stopped in all institutions of higher learning?
Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I also heard of those reports. Firstly, I heard a story suggesting that twelve students had died. So, I sent independent people to Kitwe Central Hospital to ascertain the truthfulness of the report. It turned out that no student had died. Secondly, I also heard that two students had died, but an independent investigation proved that to have been a false report too. Thirdly, I received information that female students had been sexually harassed. If you paid attention to my behaviour in the Assembly Chamber yesterday, you must have noticed that I kept going out. The reason is that I was meeting different people from the CBU, including the Vice-Chancellor, to verify the stories I had heard, and I was informed that no one was sexually harassed.
Mr Speaker, I condemn, in no uncertain terms, the manner in which the police handled the students. That is why, in this House, I keep stressing my desire to stop riots in institutions of higher learning, especially since girls suffer the most during riots because they are found in their rooms sleeping, but the police pull them out. Sometimes, police officers force students in boxer shorts out of their rooms. Obviously, someone in boxer shorts would not have been on the street rioting. I know from my experience as Member of Parliament for Munali Constituency, under which UNZA falls, that innocent students end up being picked up by the police while those who organise the riots easily escape because they have get-away cars on standby.
Mr Speaker, I am following up on the occurrences at the CBU and I want the students who wore masks identified. I had a discussion with Hon. Kampyongo yesterday because I want to work with in dealing with this matter. I am unhappy about what happened. I, therefore, ask the politicians in this House ‒ they know themselves ‒ particularly the one who was behind the El Shabaab group at the Kitwe Campus, to desist from causing trouble at institutions of higher learning. Those are places where we want students to learn so that they can contribute to the economic development of this country
I thank you, Sir.
Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the question raised by the hon. Member for Monze Central Constituency is still pertinent. Ministers responsible for education all over the world act in loco parentis to students. Hopefully, that is why the hon. Minister keeps her mobile phone on until midnight and follows an open-door policy.
Sir, clearly, the brutal battering of students by the police at the Copperbelt University (CBU) was very inhuman. In fact, it was like wild animals were being beaten using planks, and anybody who saw that, especially a parent, will agree with me that it is unacceptable. Has the hon. Minister protested to her colleague, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, over that unacceptable battering of our children like animals? If she has not, does she plan to do so?
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I am sure that hon. Members who were in the House saw me confer with Hon. Kampyongo because I am equally concerned. However, I like to be proactive, not reactive. In this regard, I wish to inform this august House that, preceding this incident, we had supported an interaction between the police and the students to avert this occurrence at the CBU after I received information that branches of political parties were being formed there because I knew that sooner rather than later, there would be riots. Like I said, there was no need for students to riot because they were being paid their allowances, yet the excuse given was non-payment of the meal allowance.
Sir, I am waiting for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to come so that we deal with this issue together. I sincerely believe that students should not be involved in any riots. So, I beg my colleagues to practise their politics away from the universities.
Hon. UPND Members: Aah!
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I do not want to be forced to ban political party branches in universities. However, if politicians continue with what they are currently doing, I will do just that. In fact, let me also take advantage of this opportunity to say that, before UNZA opens, I have decided to get intelligence on the names and schools of the students being recruited by political parties. After we identify them, I will inform the managements monitor their activities. We do not want what happened at the CBU to happen at UNZA.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!
Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, when we come to this House, we act as though we love our children, yet we are the same ones who go to universities to recruit students for political parties. So, I appeal to all the hon. Members in this House with intentions of recruiting students into their parties to desist from doing that, as some students come from very humble homes and their parents pay a lot of money for their stay in the universities. Some parents have to sell houses for their children can go to university, yet some people go there to disturb the peace of the institutions, thereby disadvantaging the students because a course that would have taken four years ends up taking in seven years. That is not right.
Mr Speaker, let us not sit in this House and pretend to be the Lord Almighty while being behind the disturbances.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, ...
Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I have been compelled to rise on this point of order by a concern over the manner in which the hon. Minister is responding to hon. questions.
Sir, in my hands is the National Assembly Members Handbook, 2006, which I quote as follows: ...
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mazabuka Central!
Before you proceed, is the point of order on the hon. Minister?
Mr Nkombo: The point of order is on the hon. Minister, Sir.
Mr Speaker: What do the rules say about points of order on Ministers?
Mr Nkombo: Let me answer, Sir.
Sir, on page 25 ...
Mr Speaker: No, on points of order on Ministers.
Mr Nkombo: That is what I am addressing in quoting the handbook.
“A point of order is a question raised by a member who believes that the rules of procedure of the House have been incorrectly applied or overlooked during the proceedings. The point of order can be raised at any time during the proceedings”.
Sir, that is the rule I am using to raise this point of order.
Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, before I allowed you to raise the point order, I had given the Floor to the hon. Member for Choma Central. Had you had raised your point of order while the hon. Minister was on the Floor, it would not have been competent.
The hon. Member for Choma Central, please, ask your follow-up question.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, ...
Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I was offside. I appreciate your counsel.
Sir, I refer you to the Members Handbook on page 24, at 32.
Mr Speaker: Page?
Mr Nkombo: On page 24, at 32.
Mr Speaker, I read:
“Members should not use words concerning insinuations and offensive and unparliamentary expressions when the Chair holds that a particular word or expression is unparliamentary, it should be withdrawn immediately without any attempt to raise debate over it”.
Sir, from my first quotation, it is my feeling that the procedure of the House has been overlooked, and that is why I am raising this point of order.
Sir, the hon. Minister has continued making insinuations in her responses. For example, she speaks about a militia group that operate operates somewhere in the North of Africa called Al Shabaab and continues to say that some hon. Members in this House are behind the riots. Is she in order not to point them out if they are truly here? This is a matter of grave concern for our country.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: She should be able to say, for instance, that Hon. Prof. Nkandu Luo is one of the hon. Members promoting the riots. She also indicated that she had engaged the organisers before they instigated the riots. I find that to be very inordinate. Is she able to tell us who the organisers she met are?
Mr Speaker: You know, if we accommodated your point of order, we would run into problems with the rule that prevents us from debating ourselves and describing our conduct in the specific terms you suggest. From what I heard in her debate, she was careful to not mention the persons she had engaged, and that is what we encourage. We are not allowed to debate ourselves or mention names.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has condemned the police for its brutality. In addition to the police’s shameful, senseless and barbaric assault on innocent and defenceless students, there are reports to which she referred of the police breaking doors and windows to gain ingress into the rooms of innocent students, especially the women, at the CBU. There are also reports of the police stealing laptops used to store examination data, mobile phones, money and all other accessories on which they could lay their hands. Is the hon. Minister in a position to confirm these reports and accordingly condemn the barbaric police officers?
Mr Speaker: I think the verbatim report will show that the hon. Minister has clearly condemned the acts in question and indicated that she would like to engage the hon. Minister of Home Affairs over these matters. So, I do not think we should dwell on that aspect. Perhaps, this is an indication to me that I may have allowed too much debate on this matter. In light of that, I will take the last question from the hon. Member for Roan.
Hon. Members: Aah!
Dr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker ...
Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order on the statements that have been made by the hon. Minister of Higher Education on the Floor of this House, particularly the claims that some hon. Members in this House are organising riots at universities and that an hon. Member has organised an Al Shabaab cell at the Copperbelt University (CBU).
Sir, Order 51(1) of the Standing Orders of the Parliament of Zambia addresses the need for veracity of the statements made on the Floor of this House and provides that whatever is said must be factual. Is the hon. Minister, therefore, in order to violate this provision by making insinuations without laying factual evidence on the Floor of this House?
Mr Speaker: My ruling is that, obviously, I cannot determine the factual correctness of her statement because that would require an inquisition. We cannot be presumptuous about a matter of this nature. I am sure you understand, as Counsel, that I cannot determine, here and now, the factual correctness of her statements.
Hon. Dr Kambwili, please, ask your question.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!
Dr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we hear that the Cabinet has just approved a Bill to criminalise torture, meaning that the Government is moving towards ...
Mr Miyutu: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: I will allow the hon. Member for Roan to continue uninterrupted.
Dr Kambwili: … zero tolerance to brutality and capital punishment in this country. That said, in every operation, there is a commander and, in the case at hand, there was a District Police Commander who oversaw this brutality. Does the hon. Minister assure us that the perpetrators of the brutality will be arrested and prosecuted in court?
Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, as I said, I engaged the hon. Minister of Home Affairs on the incident because he was out of the country when these events unfolded.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker: What about the assurance he seeks?
Prof. Luo: Sir, I am not the Minister of Home Affairs, who is the one who deals with such issues.
I thank you, Sir.
2017 TEACHER RECRUITMENT EXERCISE IN KAPUTA DISTRICT
104. Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi) (on behalf of Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa)) asked the Minister of General Education:
- whether the Government was aware that most of the applications for the 2017 teacher recruitment exercise in Kaputa District were not considered;
- why applicants from urban areas had been deployed to the district, leaving out the rural-based applicants;
- whether the Government was aware that the deployment of urban applicants had caused an uproar in the district; and
- what measures the Government was taking to remedy the situation.
The Minster of General Education (Dr Wanchinga): Mr Speaker, the 2017 recruitment of teachers is a topical issue. So, I really thank the hon. Member for asking this question because it provides us an opportunity to give the House and the nation at large some basic facts about the exercise. I will, therefore, preface my response with some facts so that both the question and answer can be contextualised.
Mr Speaker, the nation is used to the ministry recruiting about 5,000 teachers annually. However, in 2017, the Ministry of Finance only allocated resources for the recruitment of about 1,800 teachers. Further, some positions had been frozen over time, but there were about 430 promotional positions that we thought could be filled, of which 115 were for senior teachers, taking the total of teachers to be recruited in 2017 to about 2,220. Additionally, the ministry conducted an investigation of the payroll and establishment because some members of staff had been promoted, died, resigned, been removed from the system for disciplinary reasons or been seconded to other institutions. The exercise yielded about 918 additional positions, giving us a total of 3,148 teachers to be recruited.
Sir, when the advertisement was issued, we received 32,208 applications. So, we had to trim the number by removing applications that were non-compliant with the requirements for consideration, such as those with forged qualifications, inconsistencies in names on documents submitted, such as national registration card (NRCs) and certificates, not being registered with the Teaching Council of Zambia (TCZ), not having adequate ordinary-level (O-Level) qualification or having graduated from unrecognised institutions. After the first phase, which trimmed the number to 28,000, we further removed those who non-Zambians, older than forty-five years, medically or physically unfit or not ready to work in rural areas or wherever they are posted. That is how we arrived at the 3,148 teachers we recruited. Evidently, it was a very difficult exercise. So, questions like this one have been asked in many parts of this country because many people were left out. However, the truth is that had the ministry employed 10,000 teachers, we would still have remained with, at least, 18,000 eligible candidates unemployed. With that background, let me answer the question asked by the hon. Member for Kaputa.
Mr Speaker, the Government is aware that some of the applicants for the 2017 teacher recruitment exercise in Kaputa District were not considered due to the competitive nature of the process. Further, it is important for this august House to note that the recruitment was driven by the districts and provinces. The ministry’s responsibility was basically to consolidate the names that had been submitted by the districts. The candidates who did not meet the selection criteria were rejected, as I have already stated. It is also cardinal that the House remembers that the Treasury had authorised the recruitment of only a few teachers.
Mr Speaker, it is normal practice to send teachers from urban areas to rural areas just like it is normal to send teachers from rural areas to urban areas, urban areas to urban areas and rural areas to rural areas. The deployment depends on the requirements of different areas.
Mr Speaker, whereas the uproar in the hon. Member’s district might have been a minor disturbance, the one in my district was a tsunami, as many people complained about the exercise because not a single teacher was recruited from there. However, I did not complain because I understood that the exercise …
Interruptions
Dr Wanchinga: … was national and competitive. I also did not want to leverage my position as Minister.
Mr Speaker, we should now discuss what should be done to remedy the situation in future. We now have twelve public colleges run by the ministry and about eight-six private colleges that produce many teachers annually. So, the challenge the nation has is that of mobilising enough funds to be able to recruit more teachers. We are also developing new strategies for the recruitment of teachers. For instance, I have said several times on the Floor of this House that the recruitment process should be decentralised. In that regard, our thinking is that primary school teachers should be recruited at the district level while secondary school teachers should be recruited nationally. This strategy will allow us to retain most of our teachers in the rural areas. Further, since we have allowed local languages to be used as mediums of classroom instruction, the localised recruitment of teachers will entail that the teachers recruited are those who are fluent in the languages spoken in the areas in which they teach.
Mr Speaker, unemployment is a big problem among our youths, and we have to look at innovative ways of absorbing as many of our youths as possible, particularly those who have entered the teaching profession.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Minister’s preamble does not cover the question as I understand it.
Sir, one of the roles of the hon. Minister is to set the requirements that teacher training institutions must meet. For example, there must be a requirement that one must have five ordinary-level (O-Level) credits to be admitted enrolled into a teacher training institution. Further, the screening exercise starts with the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBSs), who have the authority to ensure that only applications from qualified and eligible people are submitted to the national level. In the case of Kaputa District, I am sure the DEBS screened the applications before submitting them for further consideration. Sadly, most of the candidates who had applied were not selected. In their stead, the ministry selected applicants from urban areas and sent them to the district. Unfortunately, those teachers only used Kaputa to join the service. Soon, they will get transfers to urban schools. Is the hon. Minister aware of that?
Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, the question is ‘composight’.
Mr Speaker: It was is …?
Laughter
Dr Wanchinga: It is ‘composight’.
Hon. Member: “Composight”?
Dr Wanchinga: Yes.
Sir, the first component of the question relates to screening. Indeed, the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) in the district screened the applications and forwarded to us those who met the selection criteria. However, the applications faced competition in the final selection. Let me give this example. One candidate might have got the five required O-Level credits after reseating the examination three or four times, yet be weighed against one who got a Division I or II certificate with very good passes in mathematics, science and English, which are important subjects. For instance, English is very important in the recruitment of secondary school teachers while mathematics and English are important at the primary school level. Which of the applicants would the hon. Member select? Certainly, the ministry’s selection committee would choose the one with a Division I or II certificate. That is the competition about which I am talking.
Mr Speaker, the second component of the question relates to the assertion that people use Kaputa only as a recruitment base and that they will subsequently move to other areas. Indeed, we have faced this problem and discussed it in this House several times. One of the solutions we are contemplating is the decentralisation of the recruitment process so that local authorities can hold on to teachers in their jurisdictions. Further, we have also made it mandatory for people sent to rural areas to work there for, at least, four years before they can be considered for transfers. So, the ministry is addressing the hon. Member’s concern.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Sir, the hon. Minister has indicated that among those who were removed during the screening process are those with forged qualifications and those who did not have the requisite ordinary-level (O-Level) qualifications. That casts doubts on the integrity and standards of our educational sector, and this concern, which has dominated the sector for the larger part of this year, saddens me. What practical steps does he intend to take to restore the integrity and high standard of our education system? For example, has he facilitated the prosecution of those found with forged qualifications?
Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, indeed, the issue of teachers being found with forged certificates is saddening for all of us, and the ministry is determined to completely root out this evil. For example, the culprits were identified because the ministry has now put in place a strong qualifications vetting mechanism. Prior to the institution of the mechanism by the TCZ, there were many loopholes that people exploited to enter the service without proper qualifications.
Sir, for those who are in the system, but have forged qualifications, there are disciplinary measures are in place. We have identified about 743 teachers with fake qualifications of whom about 108 have already admitted their guilt. We have to satisfy some procedural requirements, but the culprits will certainly be removed from our system and that will create a window for us to employ more authentic teachers. We have already begun the process of removing them from our system and I do not think the opportunities for cheats will continue to exist because of the measures that we are taking.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker: Part of the question was: Will they be handed over for prosecution?
Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, if what they did is criminal, certainly, they should be handed over for prosecution.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Ms Katuta (Chienge): Mr Speaker, Kaputa and Chienge are neighbours and I hail from both districts. Therefore, the people of the two districts are my brothers and sisters, and I declare interest in that regard. That said, I would like to bring it to the attention of the hon. Minister that I have a list of the people who applied in Kaputa and that some of them are graduates of the Copperbelt University (CBU) while others graduated with diplomas from Kwame Nkrumah University, yet he said that …
Mr Michelo: Ema wig aya!
Laughter
Ms Katuta: … they did not have proper qualifications or graduated from unrecognised institutions. Are the CBU, University of Zambia (UNZA) and Kwame Nkrumah University not recognised? Can the hon. Minister clarify this to the nation and the people of Kaputa. The youths who applied through the Office of the Kaputa District Education Board Secretary (DEBS), which was the nearest, were all been left out and we received people from other areas.
Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, having a university degree does not necessarily entitle a person to being recruited as a teacher because one also needs to have studied teaching methodology. Therefore, if candidates did not provide evidence of having gone through a process that prepared them to translate the knowledge they acquired in universities into appropriate lessons for their pupils, we did not select them. Probably, that is the problem with the applicants to whom the hon. Member referred. Somebody might have a degree in chemistry, physics, biology or geography, yet not have been trained in teaching methodologies to enable them become effective teachers.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Mr Speaker, one of the reasons the hon. Minister has given for some of the applicants not being picked is that they graduated from unrecognised colleges. Since the minimum duration of the course is about two years and he is aware that some unrecognised institutions offer education courses, does he not think it unfair for his ministry to allow the institutions to continue offering courses to people who pay huge sums of money just for them to be told that their certificates are not recognised after they graduate?
Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, the ministry is neither fair nor unfair because it is the responsibility of the colleges to meet their conditions of accreditation to the TCZ, which must, in turn, ensure that all the training institutions are accredited. It is also the responsibility of parents and their children to choose credible institutions. The only responsibility the ministry has is that of sensitising the general public about the credibility of the institutions. I have, on several occasions, stated that there are some colleges of education that are nothing more than former chicken runs which, instead of asking for five ‘O’ Level credits, just enrol students on the condition that the students will reseat examinations in some subjects during the course of their training in order to fulfil the requirements. However, some of the students complete their training and get their diplomas before getting the necessary ‘O’ Level qualifications. That problem is cannot be blamed on the ministry or any institution other than the colleges. The ministry’s role, through the TCZ, is only to ensure that only credible institutions are accredited to provide teacher training, and recruit credible teachers for our Teaching Service.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, in his response to the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaputa, Mr Ng’onga, the hon. Minister stated that the ministry ended up recruiting more than 3,000 teachers, and that some teachers who were found with invalid papers will be replaced. Will he consider recruiting from Kaputa District in the replacement of teachers who will be dismissed?
Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, the concern of the hon. Member for Kaputa was not with the numbers of teachers because his district received its fair share. In my understanding of the question, the hon. Member was concerned about teachers from urban areas being sent to his district. For instance, two Early Childhood Education (ECE), seventeen diploma and five degree holder teachers were sent his district. So, whether Kaputa should be prioritised when the replacement exercise commences is another matter, and it will depend on the opportunities that will be available because there are other areas that also need teachers.
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
________
MOTION
THAT IN VIEW OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AND POLITICAL INSTABILITY IN SOME PARTS OF THE SOUTHERN AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY REGION, THIS HOUSE URGES THE GOVERNMENT TO PRESUADE THE SOUTHERN AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY TO IMMEDIATELY DIRECT ITS EFFORTS TOWARDS IMPROVING DEMOCRATIC GOVERNANCE
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that, in view of the human rights violations and political instability in some parts of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region, this House urges the Government to persuade SADC to immediately direct its efforts towards improving democratic governance.
Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?
Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Mr Speaker, I second the Motion.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, SADC comprises fifteen member States, namely Angola, Botswana, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Seychelles, South Africa, Swaziland, Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe.
Sir, looking back at SADC’s thirty-year history, a maturing process can be observed with regard to the legal character of the agreements among the States. In the first instance, from the formation Frontline States against Apartheid to the formation of the Southern Africa Development Co-ordinating Conference (SADCC) in 1980, the agreements signed were neither binding nor time-framed.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, regional integration is normally anchored on agreements between or among States. The example I can give is the SADC Treaty, which provides for the integration objectives and how they are to be met. Had these agreements been ring-fenced in some binding legal framework instead of being premised on voluntary adherence, they would have been most likely to record some successes. Devoid of an obligatory character and binding time frames, such agreements become rhetoric and tend to be postponed indefinitely, referred to working groups or conveniently forgotten when they do not fit in the national political landscape. Consequently, Africa has a history of failed attempts at regional integration.
Sir, the 2010 SADC Summit in the Namibian Capital, Windhoek, ended with two very widely reported disappointments, namely:
- the Customs Union, which had been envisaged to commence in 2010, was neither established nor nearing establishment, as there was no indication given for its eventual establishment;
- the SADC Tribunal was suspended until May, 2012, after the Zimbabwean Government refused to comply with its controversial ruling and SADC leaders failed to immediately react to the violation of the tribunal’s operational terms.
Mr Speaker, that situation raised two questions about SADC’s general ability to deal with the integrational obstacles and achieve the regional integration targets it had set for itself. Sadly, these developments point to three very crucial issues concerned with national integration processes, namely:
- adherence to self-set deadlines and timetables;
- economic convergence; and
- political convergence.
Sir, hereunder, I will attempt to analyse these issue and determine whether SADC is still on track to meeting its targets.
Mr Speaker, in 1992, the SADC Treaty provided for the ratification and domestication of protocols by Parliaments of member States. Through this process and the depositing of the legal instruments with the SADC Secretariat in Botswana, protocols became laws that had to be implemented. The sad part, however, is that, due to a lack of time frames, the implementation of the relevant laws has been left to the exclusive good will of the participating governments.
Sir, it is important to note that the SADC Treaty stipulates a range of objectives that were translated by various protocols and implementable policies without timelines. Further, the treaty makes pronouncements on several socio-economic issues, but has only a few political objectives, which form the core of my Motion.
Mr Speaker, the promotion of common political values and a common political system, democracy, the rule of law and human rights are some of the political objectives. These objectives were later reinforced in Article 4 of the SADC Treaty of 1992 by the Strategic Indicative Plan for Organisation (SIPO). I am sure the hon. Minister of Foreign affairs understands what I am talking about. As a matter of fact, SIPO states that its first objective was to protect the people and safeguard the development of the region against instability arising from a possible breakdown of the rule of law and order, and intra- and inter-State conflicts and aggression. It also calls for the evolution of common political values and institutions, and the promotion of democratic institutions and practices. However, the Bertelsmann Stiftung Transformation Index (BTI) Report of 2010 paints a contrary picture on the political and economic transformation of the SADC Region. For example, of the thirteen member States covered by the 2007-2009 BTI Report, four, namely Botswana, Mauritius, Namibia and South Africa, were classified as democracies; six, namely Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, Tanzania and Zambia, were classified as democracies with deficiencies; and three, namely Angola, the DRC and Zimbabwe were classified as outright dictatorships.
Mr Speaker, for avoidance of doubt, let me repeat that Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, Tanzania and Zambia were classified as democracies with deficiencies. Very soon, however, we will learn that dictators do not last.
Mr Speaker, over the period of the BTI Study, we have witnessed unprecedented backsliding and deterioration in the levels of transformation towards democratisation, probably due to the influences and tutelage of the malignant bad manners of the systematic State-sponsored breakdown of the rule of law; …
Mr Mung’andu: Question!
Mr Nkombo: … disrespect for democracy; violation of human rights; and brutalisation of citizens of member States by the three dictators of the region.
Mr Mutale: Question!
Mr Nkombo: It is pleasant to note that one of the three dictators was overthrown while ...
Mr Mutale: Question!
Mr Nkombo: … the other had to yield power to someone else. So, we only remain with one dictator in the north.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, to bring the subject closer to home, in our country, since 2011, we have witnessed an indescribable breakdown of the rule of law, which has become more vivid under the Patriotic Front (PF) Administration. The seconder of this Motion will put together the pieces that will show that Zambia has not been spared by the malignance of the dictatorial tendencies that we believe have been acquired from its association with dictatorial regimes. Fortunately, as I said earlier, two of the dictators, one to the south and another to the north-west of our contrary, are no longer in power. We only remain with one in the north near the Copperbelt Province.
Sir, the Freedom House Index (FHI) on Freedom in the World’s rating of our region also paints a very bad and unimpressive picture of the freedoms status of citizens. Its summary is that, predominantly, countries in the SADC region have not yet reached the level of free democratic states.
Mr Speaker, during the 2001-2009 period, the Mohamed Ibrahim Foundation, commonly known as the Mo Ibrahim Foundation, also rated our region as follows:
Democracies Democracies with Deficiencies Autocratic
Botswana Lesotho Angola
Mauritius Madagascar DRC
Namibia Malawi Swaziland
South Africa Tanzania Zimbabwe
Seychelles Mozambique
Zambia
Sir, it is safe to say that many countries in the region have, over the years, joined the autocratic group and that Zambia is not an exception.
Mr Mutale: Question!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, living in denial, like what I have just seen demonstrated, is detrimental to any society.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
Just present your Motion.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, that statement is written here because this is my Motion. So, I will repeat it.
Sir, living in denial is detrimental to any society, ...
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: … and the earlier we accept that, in terms of the SADC Treaty’s provisions on common political values, the SADC has gone off track, the better for our countries and the citizens of the region.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
Just for clarity of the record, my caution was in regard of your response to the interjection by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. I was stopping you from engaging him in your debate.
You may continue.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, I did not even hear him.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Sir, I will repeat because my mind has been thrown a bit off track, but I will gather myself shortly.
Sir, living in denial is detrimental to any society, and the earlier we accept that, in terms of the SADC Treaty’s provisions on common political values, the SADC has gone off track, the better for our countries, the citizens of the region and our individual and collective legacies.
Mr Speaker, the dynamics in the so-called democratic group point to a gradual worsening of democratic features in as far as South Africa is concerned. In the intermediate category, to which we belong, we also see a deepening negation of democratic features in Zambia, Madagascar, Malawi and Tanzania. We will provide you with example soon.
Mr Speaker, what is the prevailing situation and how did it all begin?
Sir, the regression of the democratic convergence in SADC finds its roots in the non-operationalisation of the protocol against corruption, which this region suffers from, and the suspension of its only enforcement organ, the SADC Tribunal, in 2010. Established in 2001, the tribunal became operational in 2005. Its first major task came in 2007 when it had to deal with the petitions of white Zimbabwean farmers against the racism-motivated wanton expropriation of their farms by the Zimbabwean Government, which contradicted Article 6 of the SADC Treaty. In 2008, the tribunal finally ruled the farmers whose farms had been expropriated be appropriately compensated. However, the ruling was ignored by the Zimbabwean Government with impunity while other SADC Member States stood akimbo and watched as their ‘big brother’, who is now the former President of Zimbabwe, Comrade Robert Gabriel Mugabe, did his thing.
Mr Speaker, once the Zimbabwean Government had succeeded in marginalising white Zimbabweans, it went back to its old ways of undemocratic rule epitomised by the of 1985 ethnicity-inspired massacre of fellow human beings in the Matabeleland by its 5th Brigade. I am sure we all know the story. The Zimbabwean State reduced the space in which the opposition political parties operated and the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) suffered State-sponsored brutality and political violence perpetrated by the Ruling Party.
Sir, there is also the very fresh and sad story of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), where war is currently looming and refugees are now crossing the Luapula River into Zambia, and people are killing one another. The President of the opposition People’s Party for Reconstruction and Democracy (PPRD) and former Governor of Katanga, a province with more than 15 million people, Mr Moise Katumbi, has fled the country fearing persecution and possible death. Brutal repression, including arbitrary arrests, detentions and extra-judicial killings of citizens continue in the DRC.
Mr Speaker, prior to the recently-held elections in Angola, journalists and human rights advocates faced repeated acts of intimidation for exposing corruption and human rights violations. Further, the police has used excessive force and set dogs on people who demonstrated peacefully over a pre-election dispute.
Sir, in Lesotho, there has also been deep political unrest and insecurity, and Amnesty International has documented a pattern of arbitrary arrests and detentions of political party members, students, human rights advocates and members of the Lesotho Defence Forces (LDF).
Sir, in Madagascar, the story is the same as that of Lesotho, as human rights defenders have suffered long pre-trial detentions for exposing governance ills, corruption and human rights violations.
Mr Speaker, in South Africa, we all know the Marikana Mine Massacre story, which has left an indelible scar on the South African political administration platform. The media and whistle-blowers are also under constant and severe attack. In some cases, they are followed to their homes and placed under constant surveillance by the State police and intelligence agents.
Mr Speaker, here, in Zambia, where we live, the story is not different. What is obtaining is a mutilation of democracy and violation of human rights. The country was on the spotlight when the leader of the United Party for National Development (UPND), Sir Hakainde Hichilema, was brutally and savagely tear gassed, pepper-sprayed and arrested by the police, and held in solitary confinement at Lilayi Police for eight days. Eventually, he was charged with treason, a capital offence. Fortunately, he had the strength and resolve to not run away from his country like Mr Moise Katumbi. Sir Hakainde Hichilema decided to stay even after he was warned that the police would go for him on the night of 10th April, 2017. He was ready to face what was coming. Had he fled, someone would have found some space to actualise the intended charge of treason. That is why he decided to stay in his house, and the consequence of his decision was that he and five of his staff spent 127 days in prison. They were moved from prison to prison, and mentally and physically tortured, including almost being transported from court to prison in a motorised dog kennel with dog faecal matter.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Five other members of the UPND who were arrested and taken to Woodlands Police Station were also beaten, tortured and pepper-sprayed in all body openings, including the anuses and genitals, by well-known members of the Zambia Police and, since the perpetrators of the brutality are well-known, only time will tell whether they will go scot-free. However, I think they will not live to enjoy the fortunes of their evils ways. These cases are well-documented and, in my language, we say “mulandu tauligwi cucu” or “mulandu si udyewa na koswe”, meaning that a case cannot be eaten by a rat the way money can.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the bad manners and habits have been acquired by the ‘small brothers’ in the SADC region. The question, now, is simply that of the depth to which this cancer of dictatorship has gone. The manifestations of the growing dictatorial tendencies include a loss of fundamental rights and freedoms of the people, namely the freedoms of assembly, association, movement, expression and conscience. For example, in this country, church meetings and peaceful congregations have been prohibited by the Government.
Ms Kapata interjected.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, just leave her. I can handle her.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
That is my prerogative!
Just continue with your debate, or are you through?
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the right to life has also been interfered with. We have had extra-judicial killings in Zambia, as was the case with Grazier Matapa. At this point, maybe, I should mention that the killers of Grazier Mapata, who are members of the Ruling Party, the Patriotic Front (PF), are in jail as I speak. They were convicted and sentenced to be hanged until pronounced dead.
Mr Sing’ombe: Shame!
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: The other examples of extra-judicial killings include the gunning down of Mapenzi Chibulo, just near Downtown Shopping Mall, and the killing Malesu Mukonka, a university student, by suspected cadres. To be fair, I must state that I do not know who the suspected cadres are. Mr Mark Chongwa, a Zambia Air Force (ZAF) officer, also lost his life while in the custody of the officers at Woodlands Stadium. Further, just two days ago, a family in Mbae Musuma in Mazabuka District was killed by the police on suspicions of being cattle rustlers.
Mr Speaker: Order!
Business was suspended from 1040 hours until 1100 hours.
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I had just listed some of the freedoms and liberties that have been violated in the region and in our country, including the killing of two members of one family at Farm No. 25 in Mbae Musuma Settlement on Saturday night. As I speak, the bodies of the two brothers are in a fridge in the morgue.
Mr Speaker, what happened to the golden rule of presumption of innocence until proven guilty? Why were the brothers not taken to a court of law so that they could defend themselves? Is there any excuse for anyone killing the two suspects in that manner? The answer is ‘no’. I have already narrated how the police used brute force to enter Sir Hakainde Hichilema’s house on the fateful day of 10th April, 2017. In fact, I would not be far from the truth if I said they wanted to kill him. That is our suspicion. Thankfully, he is still alive. I also spoke about the prohibition of church congregations and peaceful demonstration. As you know very well, the President of the Patriots for Economic Progress (PEP), Mr Sean Tembo, had asked the police for permission to peacefully demonstrate against the suspected corrupt purchase of fire tenders. However, he was denied that right, which is at the centre of fundamental human rights and freedoms. The police did not allow him to express himself in the manner that he wanted.
Mr Speaker, is it by mere coincidence that the three people killed extra-judiciously, that is, Ms Chibulo, Mr Mukonka and Mr Chongwa, all came from the same region of the country?
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, I know that this is an itchy subject, but the question is simple. Was it a coincidence? This is English. Inachitika chabe so or was it motivated?
Mr Speaker, political violence is rampant in the SADC region. I am reminded, for example, that before some of my colleagues came to this House, there was a Member of Parliament for Wusakile called Mr Barnabas Chella. Unfortunately, he was killed at his farm in Kitwe by suspected cadres. That is a fact, and we cannot run away from these things. Probably, this is his second or third year of being six feet under. So, the matters I am raising are serious. Whether my colleagues want to trivialise them or not, ...
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
Please, resume your seat.
Your Motion is that “… this House urges the Government to persuade SADC to immediately direct its efforts towards improving democratic governance”.
Please, try and pitch it at that level.
You may continue.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, on page 24 of my speech for the Motion, I have the subtitle, “What are the Issues that Have Led Us to Where We Are? Why Are There Difficulties and Challenges in Democratic Governance?” That is part of my Motion.
Sir, the right to life is a fundamental and inherent human right, yet Mr Chella was killed.
Sir, two of the problems in our democracy are political violence and electoral malpractices. In Angola, there are records of people dying during elections. In Zimbabwe, what they call the “Independent ...”, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) of Zimbabwe, like my colleague says, “The Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) of the DRC”.
Mr Speaker: Or simply the electoral body.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Yes, Sir.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, the omissions in the electoral Acts of the region are the cause of electoral malpractices and poor governance in the region, and they need to be addressed. For example, we know how the ECZ gave someone votes that he did not deserve in Lundazi in 2016. We also know how the commission refused to anchor its authority on primary documents like the Gen 12, yet decided to declare the elections free and fair. Further, we know that a Kenyan by the name of Mr Chavula was admitted into the ECZ server room at Mulungushi International Conference Centre (MICC), just across from here. All those things caused despondency in the country.
Mr Speaker, maybe, I should declare interest because I have also been a victim of police brutality. For example, at Sir Hakainde’s house, I was brutalised by the police and I have a medical report to that effect, but no one wanted to attend to me at the police station. That goes to show how unprofessional our police is in discharging its mandate. It is also public knowledge that a police constable by the name of Mr Spider Ngoma nearly shot me with an Avtomat Kalashnikov 1947 (AK47) rifle at Petroda Filling Station in Makeni. Everyone knows that.
Mr Speaker, I have the right to life. However, Constable Ngoma could simply have pulled the trigger and I would not be here today. That is my point.
Sir, the hon. Members on your right can say what they want, and I heard somebody say ...
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
Earlier, I counselled you to not engage others in your debate.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, I have a judgement here and I will lay it on the Table for the House to see that the police officer who wanted to kill me was reported to the Police Public Complaints Authority (PPCA) and appeared before a tribunal. I hope that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs received the copy of the judgment that I sent to him to show him how totally unprofessional his police service is. If that officer’s actions were not influenced by politicians, then, the appointing authority must dismiss the police command so that the service can starting building a good reputation for itself. That is the practice in the region. After the massacre at Marikana, for example, the administration there cracked the whip.
Mr Speaker, I live in Lusaka South and I am emotionally tortured everyday when I meet Mr Ngoma at a roadblock. The man has continued working despite the tribunal having ruled that he should either be fired or disciplined. I have now just decided to sue him in his personal capacity. This case is another example of the problem of non-observance of the law in the SADC region. A judgment was passed, but it has been ignored totally. The Constable Ngoma’s supervisor has a copy of the judgement, but he says that he heard the police spokesperson congratulate the man for restraining himself from reacting to a violent man’s provocation. Another example is that, just yesterday, I was advising my friends in this House to pay back the money they were paid during their wrongful stay in office after Parliament was dissolved in accordance with a court judgment. Unfortunately, that raised an uproar from hon. Ministers who said, with impunity, that they will not pay back the money. That is the breakdown of the rule of law about which I am talking. I have heard on the grapevine and read on social media that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs has offered to pay back that money.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
You are now debating a colleague. Please, spare him.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I want to commend him.
Mr Speaker: Please, make your commendation, but spare him.
Mr Nkombo: Sir, if what I heard is true, his colleagues need to emulate his example of respecting the court judgment. Remember that I began my debate by referring to the Zimbabwean Government’s refusal to honour a SADC Tribunal judgment on the grabbing of land from white farmers. The situation is the same here. The difference is only in degree. In our case, the hon. Members on your right got money illegally. I am told that one of them has offered to pay back and I ask the others to follow suit. That is what decency demands. There is nothing wrong with admitting that one took a wrong turn. That is why a man called Saul walked on the road to Damascus and became Paul.
Hon. Government Member: Amen!
Mr Nkombo: It is called contrition or realising that one is on the wrong path.
Sir, this Motion is intended to help us put all the ills that we have suffered behind us so that we, the people of this country, can be united in our diversity. We can smile and talk to one another despite having different political beliefs. That is the purpose of this Motion. It is not meant to ridicule anyone. However, things must be said as they are. So, as the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs responds in agreement with my Motion, he should confirm whether he has offered to refund the State. He should further his decency by calculating how much he got and acquitting himself by paying back the money.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I talked briefly about the ECZ, which administers elections, and I would like to demonstrate that, from my monthly pay as a Member of Parliament, ...
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mazabuka Central Constituency!
Please, resume your seat.
I would like to stress to you that this Motion you are moving is primarily pitched on a regional, not local, issue. I know that you can exemplify issues using instances from more than one country, but bear in mind the focus. The tenor of your debate is now tending towards a localised perspective. You are now localising the Motion to this jurisdiction rather than broadening it to the regional level. You are asking this Government to urge other governments to uphold democratic governance. So, the Motion is pitched at the regional level and should be underpinned by fundamental principles. For example, you cited the objectives of the Southern African Development Community (SADC), which are regional commitments. Those should be the themes of your Motion.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I only have two pages left. So, I will soon be through.
Sir, in the SADC region, there is a preponderance of people not obeying court orders. Additionally, the Public Order Act, a colonial piece of legislation, has been an obstacle to the promotion of respect for fundamental human rights and freedoms because it has been used by people in power in the region to suppress those of us who want to wrestle power from them, yet this is a democracy. For example, one High Court Judge ruled against the PF’s decision to deny us our right to assemble, but the ruling was disobeyed. Another High Court Judge directed the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) to air a UPND paid-for election campaign advertisement, but the ruling was also disobeyed. Currently, Article 104 of our Constitution is also being disobeyed by some people.
Sir, the clamp down on the media is another violation of rights that is being perpetrated not only in Zambia, but in the whole region. I have been restrained from giving examples, but we all know how many radio stations and newspapers have been shut down.
Sir, it is said that charity begins at home, and that sunshine always follows the rain. We, therefore, will have an opportunity to correct these mistakes. You correctly guided, but I had to bring out all these issues because charity begins at home. So, before the PF can have the moral standing to present this Motion to SADC, it must, first, clean up its house. I had to get that out of the way, as I assume that the PF will agree to table this Motion before SADC so that we can clean up the region. However, before doing that, it cannot avoid walking the road to Damascus. It must, first, atone for the things its police and members have done so that, when it goes to SADC, it can show what has been done in the country and prove that we live happily. Its members should show that they are even able to have a cup of tea with Sir Hakainde Hichilema, which is how life is supposed to be.
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: That is the agenda I am pushing. We should not only pretend to be friends in this august House, but we must actualise that friendship because life is dynamic. Our colleagues may be in power today but, when we come into power, they will need our good will.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: That is why there is retribution in most countries when there is a change of government.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!
Mr Nkombo: I am begging for friendship, but the friendship is premised on the condition that there will be good behaviour. The time for good behaviour is now. Fortunately, two dictators, the grandmasters of dictatorship in the region, are gone and the other dictator is a very young fellow we can just ignore. I ask my colleagues on your right to not assume step into the dictators’ shoes. All I am asking for is friendship.
Mr Speaker, as I speak, a special envoy from the Commonwealth is in the country to sit us down with the PF and get us to narrow our differences. Yes, we need his services, but I believe we can do it on our own. We can simply stop to suppressing one another. The Government should give us freedom. That is all I am saying.
Sir, I am sure that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs will support this Motion and ask his colleagues to do likewise ...
Ms Kapata: No!
Mr Nkombo: ... because, sometimes, the end justifies the means. The means, today, is my appeal to the Government on the ills that afflict us in the region. They may not be pleasant to hear, but if someone tells me that I am ugly and I know I am not good-looking, I should accept the fact. I attempted brought out these issues so there can be some introspection among our friends. I am sure they know that what I am talking about is true. So, we need to co-operate and be friends, not platonic ones, but deep friends who can share meal even though we know that we are of different political persuasions.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, we make your life difficult because of the way we behave on both sides of the House. If we can tie up this matter together here, it will be easy for, say, Hon. Kalaba and the shadow Minister of Foreign Affairs to go to SADC and move a Motion confident that our backyard is clean.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?
Ms Chonya: Now, Sir.
Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me the opportunity to second this very important Motion that touches on the wellbeing of the citizens of the Southern African Development Community (SADC). I commend Hon. Garry Nkombo, Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, ...
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Ms Chonya: ... for elaborately and ably moving it ...
Mr Livune: That is right!
Ms Chonya: ... and sharing deep insights on how our region has performed in democratic governance.
Sir, since gaining independence in the 1950s and 1960s, African States have struggled to come up with interventions for stemming conflict on the continent. It is against this background that various continental and regional bodies, including SADC, were created to promote common political values and systems, democracy, the rule of law and human rights on the continent through regional integration with an emphasis on fostering peace. This Motion is in line with the SADC Treaty, particularly Article 4, which stipulates that human rights, democracy and the rule of law are the principles that should guide the actions of SADC Member States.
Mr Speaker, to let me remind the House, the objectives of SADC, as stated in Article 5 of the SADC Treaty, are to:
- achieve development and economic growth, alleviate poverty, enhance the standard and quality of life of the people of Southern Africa and support the socially disadvantaged through regional integration;
- evolve common political values, systems and institutions;
- promote and defend peace and security;
- promote self-sustaining development on the basis of collective self reliance and inter-dependence of Member States;
- achieve complementarity between national and regional strategies and programmes;
- promote and maximise productive employment and utilisation of resources of the region;
- achieve sustainable utilisation of natural resources and effective protection of the environment; and
- strengthen and consolidate the long-standing historical, social and cultural affinities and links among the people of the region.
Mr Speaker, the SADC Protocol on Politics and Defence Co-operation provides that the region shall promote the development of democratic institutions and practices within the territories of State parties and encourage the observance of human rights as also provided for in the charters of the United Nations (UN) and the African Union (AU). It is sad, however, to note that SADC has abandoned its main objectives of serving the interest of member States in the region and is now serving the interests of political leaders. For example, we have used the ‘sovereignty of States’ argument a lot in this country. Further, the SADC Heads of State exhibit double standards when confronted by political challenges. For example, recently, one of the Heads of States in the region faced an internal political challenge his regional counterparts quickly convened an extraordinary meeting to help him deal with that internal political situation. However, to the contrary, when an opposition political leader in Zambia was incarcerated on trumped-up treason charges by his political opponents, SADC refused to help in correcting the wrong, which was happening under their jurisdiction, claiming that they did not have the mandate to interfere in Zambia’s internal matters because we were a sovereign State.
Mr Speaker, it is sad to note that the principle of national sovereignty is applied differently depending on the situation. In the case of Zambia, it had to take the Commonwealth and the former President of Nigeria, Mr Obasanjo, to help broker a deal in our country. However, the sovereignty argument does not hold water because SADC is mandated to involve itself in the affairs of its members States insofar as conflict prevention and management are concerned. The Zambian situation was a missed opportunity for SADC to shield itself from the criticism to which it has been subjected over the years. Consequently, some people have called it a toothless bulldog that no longer peddles the interests of its member countries. The organisation failed to help us preserve our status as an oasis of peace. Our peace almost threatened, save for the proactive intervention of the Commonwealth and other players who helped us to restore some level of sanity and initiate dialogue with a view to resolving our political differences.
Sir, these double standards being exhibited by SADC are weakening the commitment to respect for human rights undertaken by the organisation at its inception, and it will take bold leadership to reverse the downward spiral. A good starting point would be to persuade SADC to immediately direct its efforts towards achieving its objectives on evolving political values, systems and institutions, and to continue promoting peace and security, as it is mandated.
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Mrs Chonya: Otherwise, the failures of the organisation are slowly leading to an erosion of people’s confidence in it.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Chonya: Some people have even accused it of being a club of like-minded autocratic leaders who sit and do nothing, except drink tea and share ideas on how to suppress the aspirations of the people it is supposed to serve. I, therefore, call for a reform of how SADC conducts its business if it has to be relevant and deserve the continue subscriptions of its member States.
Mr Speaker, the focus of this Motion is on the performance of SADC in democratic governance. Allow me to make a few comments on how the organisation has failed us in other areas like economic integration, on the social front as well as …
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
I am afraid, I will not allow you because those are not the terms of the Motion.
You may continue.
Mrs Chonya: I am guided, Mr Speaker.
Sir, I just wanted help buttress the point that SADC is really at risk of losing its credibility as an organisation that serves our interests.
Sir, while the region is relatively peaceful by continental standards, progress in realising the human rights objectives set out by the SADC Treaty has been slow. In fact, in some SADC Member States, there has been a noticeable reversal of gains in human rights in recent years ‒ and I think the mover of the Motion did a good job of giving examples in this regard ‒ resulting in a remarkable departure from the international obligations of member States contained in other major human rights treaties to which the majority of SADC countries are party. In short, the SADC Troika, which is the organ on politics, defence and security, has not been active in the area of peace and security, and conflict mediation and prevention. In fact, when our country was taking over the chairmanship of this organ, I thought the timing was very wrong because the country did not have the moral right to take up that role, were it not a rotational routine change of leadership, at a time when our governance record was at its worst.
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Mrs Chonya: Were it a matter of voting, I think Zambia would have lost that election. We took up the chairmanship because it was our time to do so. If anything we should have declined. However, I hope that our chairmanship will give us the impetus to remind ourselves of our obligations and need to put our house in order before we urge other governments to observe the tenets of democracy and good governance.
Sir, leaders across SADC cannot continue to ignore the plight of citizens who are being victimised for attempting to exercise their human rights. It is unacceptable for our leaders to perpetrate human rights violations in the pursuit of private agendas while the regional body, which was primarily established to protect the public interest, turns a blind eye. I always feel sad when we are reminded of some lives that we lose needlessly when we have national and international institutions that can prevent that.
Mr Speaker, we have observed, with deep concern, that violations of human rights do not receive the due attention of the regional body. Specifically, the Government should urge SADC to urgently address with urgency the following violations:
- the denial of people’s fundamental rights and freedoms, which is very evident even in our country;
- political violence, which our countries are copying from one another as if it were a desirable phenomenon;
- the undesirably high incidence of State-sponsored violence against the peoples of SADC;
- electoral malpractices, which have become the order of the day. I saw our friends on the other side of the House laugh when my colleague reminded them that, one day, they will also be in the Opposition while we will take over the leadership of this country ...;
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Mr Chabi: Kwisa?
Mrs Chonya: They laughed it away as if it were not possible. However, we had United National Independence Party (UNIP) and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). Where are they today? So, the mandate that the Patriotic Front (PF) has to rule this country is a privilege that will not last forever.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Chonya: One day, our friends will have to come and answer for their actions while they held public office.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Chonya:
- intolerable levels of police brutality is intolerable. This morning, we were talking about what happened at the Copperbelt University (CBU), ...
Mr Kampyongo: Question!
Mrs Chonya: When I saw video clips of what happened on social media, all I could say was, “Cry, my beloved country”. It is sad because we have simply gone to the dogs, and this is not acceptable ...
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kafue!
Please, withdraw that expression.
Mrs Chonya: Mr Speaker, I am sorry, I got carried away with my emotions. What I meant to say is that our record has a lot of room …
Mr Bwalya: Withdraw!
Mrs Chonya: … for improvement. I was about to talk about the breakdown of the rule of law. Once, under the able leadership of his Excellency, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Chonya: … may his soul rest in peace, we were known as a country that promoted the rule of law, rather than of men. Now, we are seeing the emergency of the rule of men and powerful women like my cousin, who are able to baptise men;
Laughter
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs Chonya:
- interference with the doctrine of the separation of powers. The moment we, regardless of who we are, start giving guidance on the way the Judiciary must conduct its business, it amounts to nothing less than interference in the work of that arm of the Government. Today, there is a breakdown in the criminal justice system of our country. We saw it during our petition; and
- repression of press freedom is something else we can talk about.
Sir, since I am running out of time, let me quickly state that the SADC principles oblige member States, including Zambia, to protect and promote the full participation of all citizens in political processes. Therefore, the organisation should promote freedom of association, independence of the Judiciary, equal opportunities for all political parties to access State media and impartiality of electoral management bodies, including our Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), which has not explained why some of its members of staff have left it under unexplained circumstances. Were we a true democracy, those are issues that would have been interrogated.
Sir, in conclusion, allow me to request the hon. Members of this House, both on your left and right, to support this Motion for the benefit of all the people in the SADC region. This is the time to speak out against wrong things because, as one great philosopher whose name has escaped my memory once said, being silent in the face of evil is equal to being an accomplice to the wrongdoing.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to make some reflections on this Motion, which we should debate with the highest degree of sobriety because it is very important to us as a country and a region. Our vision, as a Parliament, is that we should be a model legislature in democracy and good governance. Clearly, this Motion fits in very well with our aspirations.
Mr Speaker, the challenge of the African continent is one of good governance. When we look all over Africa, we see the outcomes of its absence every day. Throughout Central Africa, West Africa, portions of East Africa and to the north of us, particularly in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), we see many countries that are in a dilemma in terms of the preservation of peace and security. The absence of peace and security in those areas emanates from the absence of good governance and, as Parliamentarians, we have to reflect on that very seriously because our region, at least, still has a glimmer of hope …
Mr Nkombo: Hear, Hear!
Prof. Lungwangwa: … in that regard. We can nip in the bud the circumstances that may bring about conflicts and threaten peace and security in our region. That is why, as we stand on the periphery of a new year, it is important for us to reflect very seriously on how best we can preserve and enhance good governance in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region.
Mr Speaker, the challenges of governance on the continent of Africa have resulted in a situation in which the United Nations (UN) is spending about US$80 billion on peace-keeping operations, with the bulk of the money coming to Africa. The African Union (AU) also spent US$416.9 million last year, of which 25 per cent was spent on peace and security issues on the continent. For example the African Union Mission to Somalia (AMISOM) gobbles about 2 per cent of the AU budget. That really is a very serious matter, and I think it is our responsibility, as Parliamentarians, to reflect very seriously on the issues of governance that have cost us peace and security on our continent.
Mr Speaker, many of the youths of the continent are dying in the Mediterranean Sea while attempting to migrate to Europe because of the challenges of poor governance in their territories. Their aspirations and hopes have, to a large extent, been destroyed. We have seen on international news media our youths being sold as slaves. They opt to be sold as slaves because of problems of poor governance in their countries. So, I think that we should reflect very seriously on what can be done to promote good governance here, in the SADC. That is important because we can, then, address the root causes of poor governance in our region, some of which are right in our midst. For example, as leaders of this region, we must adhere to the values and principles that we have set ourselves. In our case, here in Zambia, the guiding values and principles are clearly outlined in the Constitution, namely morality and integrity, patriotism and national unity, and equity and equality, among others. Those values come into play in the consideration of governance issues. They are the benchmarks upon which we should evaluate our performance.
Mr Speaker, in considering matters of governance, we should go beyond political party interests. The country comes first. That is when we will see the maturity of democracy, and that is why, in countries like the United States of America (USA), for example, the Republicans and Democrats stand on common ground on matters that affect the American nation. Clearly, that is a demonstration of maturity in leadership. There are issues on which there should not be any debate at all because they are in the interest of the nation and for the public good. So, on matters of governance, in Zambia and in the region, we should be saying, “One Zambia, One Voice”. Whoever does not adhering to the higher principles that we have set as yardsticks of good governance, regardless of the political parties to which they belong, should be condemned by a unified national voice in the interest of the country.
Sir, the indices of the country and the region are very clear. The way we inter-relate or interact with one another, for example, is an indicator of the quality of our governance. If hon. Members of Parliament are seen insulting and fighting one another, that can be an indication of poor governance, and it can lead to people on the streets and in the villages to going for one another’s throats, which is not good.
Mr Speaker, radicalisation of the youth is not good for our country and all of us should be united in saying that regardless of who is doing because it will cause conflict, insecurity and instability, and is not in accord with the dictates of good. So, I think it is our responsibility to nip it in the bud for the good of our country. We know it is happening in our country and the region, as a whole, and it is our responsibility to stop it for the good of the future generations.
Mr Speaker, we still have hope for the region, and many countries look up to it because it still has some degree of peace and stability. Many of our colleagues from other regions of Africa have encouraged us to do the best we can to avoid the experiences their countries have gone through, and I am sure the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs hears such sentiments from his colleagues quite often. We are also often told by other Members of Parliament on the continent when we meet at the Pan African Parliament (PAP) to maintain the peace and security in our region because it has eluded many parts of the continent. Therefore, as we enter the new year, I challenge all of us to reflect on what we can do and to work with our colleagues in the SADC region, be it at the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC-PF) or other for a at the ministerial or higher levels. What can we do to promote good governance and ensure that there are cordial relationships even among political parties?
Mr Livune: Hear, hear!
Prof. Lungwangwa: As we all know, in a democracy, there will always be differences of opinion. However, that is good for our democratic development. Those who have studied historical materialism know that in the development process, there is always a unity and struggle of the opposites. That is how things are in nature. However, that does not mean that we should destroy ourselves. The French philosopher, Voltaire, once said, “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”. That is democracy. We should find a way of co-existing even though we belong to different political parties. The greater good is the country, whose wellbeing all of us must aspire to protect. We may disagree, but let us have a cup of tea together without raising our fists.
Mr Speaker, a lot can be said, but I think it is time for reflection on where we have come from and where we ought to be going. Zambia has been a land of consensus as far as fundamental freedoms are concerned since 1964. We saw liberation wars fought around us and shouldered their burden. We also saw freedom fighters come here and protected them. I think we should get back to being a country of consensus in terms of developing our democracy and protecting the fundamental rights and freedoms of our people. In that regard, we should be an example to the region and the rest of Africa.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, thank you for affording me the chance to debate the Motion on the Floor, which seeks to urge this Government to urge the Southern African Development Community (SADC) to focus its efforts on ensuring that member States observe the tenets of democracy and human rights.
Mr Speaker, I want to place it on record that had my predecessor on the Floor, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, been the one who moved or seconded the Motion with his debate, we may have taken it as noble advice to the Government ...
Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: … because he premised his debate on issues we can understand. We can rest assured that he represents this Parliament well at the fora we have sent him.
Sir, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa has categorically stated that the African Union (AU) appreciates the fact that the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) has maintained relative peace and stability in its member States, and that has not been achieved by chance. It is the result of some people’s hard work. He has also, in essence, told us that this Motion is misplaced because SADC is structured in very good way. For example, he has told us that there is an organisation called the Southern Africa Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC PF) in which this august House is well represented.
Mr Lubinda: He was a member!
Mr Kampyongo: We send our Members of Parliament to sit at that forum with other Parliamentarians from all SADC Member States.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: That is the forum at which these matters are discussed.
Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: So, I do not know what the mover of this Motion is trying to achieve. Is his intention to send the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs with whom, it seems, he does not even interact, to the SADC PF to find out what is going on there?
Mr Kalaba: He has never engaged me.
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the objectives of SADC PF are very clear and many. Among them are the achievement of economic development, fostering of peace and security, enhancement of democratic principles, and attainment of equitable and sustainable development.
Sir, a lot has been said about the challenges that some SADC Member States are facing. Indeed, in ensuring that all the member States are able to achieve the objectives I mentioned above, there must be peace and security. In that regard, I would like to proudly state that Zambia is well-respected at both the SADC and AU levels.
Mrs Chonya: Question!
Mr Kampyongo: Just last week, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and I hosted the AU organ on peace and security in Livingstone the essence of which was to look at where we were, especially in the various countries where there were some challenges, and what we could do, going forward. Like the Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa said, we have permanent missions in countries where there are challenges, and he mentioned Somalia where, for the first time, the continent recorded some gains. In the past, we depended on people from outside the continent to forcefully intervene in the challenges on the continent. That did not work. Now, we see gains even in countries that seemed totally ungovernable, such as Somalia and South Sudan. Nonetheless, it must be understood that every sovereign State must, first, be given a chance to put its own house in order. That is why it was agreed at the AU that member States must be allowed to decide for themselves how they want to govern themselves and enshrine that in their constitutions. So, even as member States, how we engage others and where we come from matter a lot. The same applies to the SADC PF.
Mr Speaker, in Zambia, we have held democratic elections in which there have been different contenders and changed our leadership, including at the apex or the Presidency. The same applies here, in Parliament. The faces we found in 2011 are not the ones on your right and left here today, ...
Mr Mushanga: Eee, tatwabeshiba!
Mr Kampyongo: … and it is not as if those who are not here today wanted to go. They went because democracy dictated it. This record was not achieved by chance, but because that is what we have prescribed for ourselves, and we must be proud, for once. For this reason, it is very difficult for us in the Executive to appreciate the rationale of this Motion and what it seeks to achieve.
Ms Kapata: Yes!
Mr Kampyongo: Sir, what I expected the mover of the Motion to do was, first, engage our current Members of the SADC PF and consider sending the message through them if this was, indeed, a way of sending a message. Alternatively, he should have engaged the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, my dear brother, who has done a lot in this field, and we must commend him.
Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: The respect we are accorded at both the SADC and AU does not come by chance. I am just from being elected Chairperson of the conference on Ministers responsible for civil registration, ...
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: … a position that is not given to people anyhow. That is how respected this nation is. Were we considered an undemocratic country, we would not have been given this much respect. Things do not work like that.
Ms Kapata: Bela posa amabwe abekala mu glass houses!
Mr Kampyongo: Therefore, we must agree that we have achieved quite a lot as a nation.
Sir, I totally agree with the mover of the Motion that that charity begins at home. However, I am forced to question his moral standing when he talks about internal democracy ...
Laughter
Mr Kalaba: Political.
Mr Kampyongo: … because democracy should not be demanded of those in the Government. Rather, we should also be concerned about intra-party democracy starting from here, our home.
Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: Not too long ago, if I remember correctly, the mover of this Motion was a victim of circumstance when some people in his party floated the idea of making him president of their part, the United Party for National Development (UPND), after seeing how courageous he was in Parliament. They thought that the party could achieve different results in elections because they had been having the same result of losing.
Laughter
Mr Mwamba: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
You are embarrassing the hon. Member.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: I know you want to make a point about intra-party democracy but, please, avoid referring to the hon. Member.
Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Sir.
Sir, one hon. Member who has been very popular here on account of being articulate and courageous …
Laughter
Mr Kampyongo: … was a victim of circumstances when some members of his party felt that if he became their president, maybe, their party could have different fortunes.
Laughter
Mr Kampyongo: They were tired of losing to different contenders …
Ms Kapata: Ten times!
Mr Kampyongo: … on between six and ten occasions. So, they wanted change. However, that sentiment put the man’s life at risk because ...
Laughter
Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: … other members of his party who thought that they already had a wamuyayaya leader could not accept the idea of a change of leadership …
Laughter
Mr Speaker: What do you mean by “wamuyayaya”?
Mr Kampyongo: Wamuyayaya, Mr Speaker, means the idea that there is only one person capable of leading a party even if he continues losing elections.
Laughter
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: Then, there were those who said that they wanted to try somebody else …
Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!
Laughter
Mr Kampyongo: I am talking about democracy.
Mr Lubinda: Yabaletelela!
Laughter
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, those who go on an anthill to call others to equity …
Mr Lubinda: Go with clean hands ehe!
Mr Kalaba: Do not go with dirty hands!
Mr Kampyongo: … must ensure their hands are clean ...
Mr Lubinda: Clean.
Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: … like Dr Kaunda’s handkerchief.
Laughter
Mr Kampyongo: Therefore, it is very difficult for us to support this Motion and take it to SADC when we know that we will be asked about democracy in the sponsoring party …
Hon. Government Members: Hammer, hammer!
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we should, first of all, remove the log from our eyes before we can think of removing a speck from someone’s eye.
Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: Sir, SADC has not sat back idly. Yes, we acknowledge that there are challenges in some countries, and it is shameful and unacceptable that we are currently hosting people who have run away from insecurities in their countries to seek asylum here. However, where are they running to?
Ms Mulenga: Zambia!
Mr Kampyongo: It is to Zambia, and the reason is that this country is a well-known sanctuary of peace.
Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: People cross thick forests to get to Zambia because they know they will be here.
Mr Speaker, Zambia is a member of the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security Co-operation. Therefore, it is unaccepted to hear some of the sentiments of the seconder of the Motion, my dear sister, Hon. Chonya, who is a former Permanent Secretary (PS). We are not members of that organ by accident. My colleagues, Hon. Kalaba and the hon. Minister of Defence, Mr Chama, represent this country adequately, and there are genuine discussions.
Mr Lubinda: Jack abwela.
Mr Kampyongo: We also stand up to those we feel do not meet our expectations because we know that if we do not, we will continue looking after refugees; people who are potential voters and are supposed to participate in choosing the leaders in their countries. No one wants to run away from the people who are supposed to him or her. Therefore, we face these matters head-on.
Sir, apart from the political and peace resolution engagements, SADC has created a standing intervention force that will be deployed whenever necessary. In the case of what happened in Zimbabwe, to which the seconder of the Motion referred, I am sure everyone saw the restraint on the part of the men and women in uniform who wanted a change of leadership. That is because they knew SADC’s clear stance on unconstitutional change of leadership. The organisation promotes the holding of peaceful elections and is always represented in member States. For instance, there were elections in Angola recently and there will soon be elections in Botswana. In such cases, SADC is always represented by election observation missions that report back on the credibility of the electoral processes and results in the region.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: So, if some individuals behind someone who has been losing want to complain, those individuals are questioning the results of a genuine election, which should not be acceptable because it is a recipe for anarchy.
Mr Speaker, those of us who have been given the privilege to run the affairs of the State by the people of Zambia, like the seconder of the Motion said, will ensure that peace prevails. We will not let anyone break the law in the name of democracy and get away with it. If anything, democracy is about the rule of law. Therefore, one cannot break the law and think that SADC will come running to save them because they are politicians. It will not happen. If one breaks the law, the laws of this country will be applied.
Interruptions
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Order!
There is no point in debating while seated.
You may continue, hon. Minister.
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we will not be swayed because we have the job of ensuring that all the people exercise their rights. It is not only about the party in Government because this country has more than 16 million people who have, and should exercise, their rights. Therefore, when one breaks the law, we will not look at one’s status.
Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: We will go for them.
Interruption
Sir, I someone says time will come. For whom will it come?
Laughter
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we have heard those empty threats before.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
Just focus on your debate.
Mr Kampyongo: Sir, we have heard those empty threats before. So, we are not moved by them.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: If they want to continue on the path of challenging us, they are making a mistake.
Interruption
Mr Michelo indicated.
Mr Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member: Chiwamila galu?
Interruption
Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Bweengwa, this is the last day of this Meeting. So, I am sure you would like to be here until we adjourn sine die.
Mr Michelo interjected.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Bweengwa!
Can you leave the Assembly Chamber. We will see you in February, 2018.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Michelo left the Assembly Chamber.
Mr Speaker: Continue, hon. Minister of Home Affairs.
Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, that reminds me of how one imminent hon. Member who used to represent that constituency here ...
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
Please, focus on your debate.
Laughter
Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I was saying that SADC will continue encouraging member States to observe their Constitutions and ensure that only lawful means are used to change governments.
Sir, I am also happy that the mover of the Motion was able to flash a copy of the judgment of the Police Public Complaints Authority (PPCA), which is on my desk and I am are acting on it. That simply shows how we, as a Government, provide leadership using the oversight institutions.
Mr Speaker, we all know that the Zambia Police Service is an organisation of human beings. Police officers are human beings and capable of making mistakes. It is for that reason that we have the many oversight institutions to follow up on public complaints of unjustifiable treatment by police officers. Further, some of the murders the hon. Member has cited have been openly investigated and the Government has informed this august House and the nation what measures it took on those cases. Therefore, it is not right to cite them as evidence of a breakdown of the rule of law in the country. Yes, there could be challenges, but we are ready to address them using the relevant institutions and measures in place.
Sir, yes, we want to engage with our dear colleagues in the Opposition. There is no doubt about that. We co-exist in this House. So, we can engage each other. However, the engagement must be genuine and based on honesty. We should engage in meaningful dialogue and avoid being hypocritical because we are representatives of the people. For instance, we won the elections and some who lost it have accepted their loss. So, why should we allow someone else to not accept the results? We are all here because of the declared results of those elections.
Mr Speaker, lastly, we must be genuine to one another as leaders of our people.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kampyongo: Sir, may it be put on record that my position is that this Motion is misplaced and that we will not support it.
Hon. UPND Members: Order!
The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Sir, thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this Motion. In so doing, allow me to make reflect on one very serious contradiction, just to illustrate to all of us and, especially, to the people out there who may not be able to see the demeanour of the people who are debating this Motion.
Sir, there was a contradiction between the mover and seconder of the Motion. The mover says that this House urges the Government to persuade the Southern African Development Community (SADC), which is well and good. The seconder, however, says that the Government that we should urge to persuade SADC is not competent to do so because it did not deserve its appointment to chair the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security Co-operation, and should have turned the offer down. What are the two, who sat to write this Motion, saying? Why are they not reconciled on that issue when they belong to the same political party?
Interruptions
Mr Lubinda: I wonder whether this shows seriousness of purpose or whether this whole exercise is purely academic. I hear the seconder encouraging me to use the word ‘academic’.
Laughter
Mr Lubinda: Sir, I agree with my colleague who commended Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa. For his sake, I wanted to stay away from also commending him. However, knowing the professor as I do, I know he is able to weather any challenge. So, allow me to state that his was one of the best contributions to the debates on this Motion, which is of regional importance. On behalf of my colleagues on this side, I salute him for that and plead with him to continue being the Zambian he is.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: He must also continue to project this country as it is, that is, a beacon of peace.
Sir, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa is right and I agree with him …
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!
Mr Lubinda: ... to say that there are pockets of the SADC region where that are not yet peaceful. That is undeniable. However, that does not warrant our condemnation of the whole region because that is like throwing out the baby with the dirty water.
Sir, my colleague already emphasised the fact that SADC was established to maintain peace and security in the region. Further, the Motion talks about “improving democracy”, which connotes a continuous process. On whether SADC is demonstrating the will to improve the democratic credentials of member States, I will leave it to the hon. Minister who represents us on the Council of Ministers of SADC to comment. By the way, all the hon. Ministers gathered here belong to one organ of SADC or another. There is an organ for Ministers of Justice, whose role is to ensure that the organisation adheres to its rules and regulations. We do that because we desire to see every SADC member State adhere to high levels of governance and democratic practices.
Sir, as we speak, if anyone cared to check on the Africa Index on Peace, he or she will see how this country, which constantly receives unwarranted attacks from its own citizens, is actually the fourth most peaceful country on the continent.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: That information is accessible to everyone, including those who do not want to see it. If they wish, we can give to them the webpage so that they can read. This country, which is constantly ridiculed by her children, and whose sons spent colossal amounts of money to go to ridicule its leadership on Stephen Sackur’s “Hard Talk” on the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC), is the fourth most peaceful country in Africa after Mauritius, Botswana and Madagascar.
Sir, when you listen to some of the debates about this country here, you would think it has gone berserk. We saw some people go to the extent of saying it has gone to the dogs. This …
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
That statement was withdrawn.
Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Sir, for the reminder.
Sir, when people start demeaning their own country by saying it has gone to animals in this House, which is the highest body of democracy in the country, how do they regard themselves, given the fact that the governance of the country rests here?
Interruptions
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: This shows that this Motion was not meant to do any good. In fact, it was meant to be used exactly like the mover used it. For example, of the one hour twenty minutes he spent on the Floor, he used only twenty minutes to talk about SADC and one hour to talk about himself and his so-called “Sir Hakainde”.
Laughter
Mr Lubinda: Everybody here can testify to that. This Motion was, therefore, not about SADC, but about the mover and how the person who beat him up was not punished. Should we reduce this House to becoming a place for using important issues like those pertaining to SADC to settling personal scores?
Hon. Government Members: No!
Mr Lubinda: Must the 277 million citizens of the SADC region be represented here by a person talking about being beaten up and how the person who beat him up was not arrested? Is that an issue for SADC to deal with?
Sir, someone says his president, who has lost elections repeatedly, is not being recognised. Is that a SADC issue?
Mr Lufuma rose.
Hon. PF Members: Iwe, ikala panshi.
Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!
Mr Lubinda: I have said before that democracy and governance is a process.
Sir, we are constantly warmly applauded by the many international and regional fora, on which the people seated in front of you represent the 16 million Zambians, for what we are doing in this country.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Not too long ago, Zambia was reviewed by the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM), a home-grown mechanism, and you may recall that on the day I spoke about the APRM, somebody on your left said that whatever we were saying about all the regional and international protocols and agreements was useless. Today, the same people are saying that those protocols must be followed. What kind of inconsistency is that? That is hypocrisy at its worst.
Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Sir, those who want to foster good governance must ensure that the regional organisations to which we belong are respected and used. As my colleague said, we are members of the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC PF) and the Pan African Parliament (PAP), and those are avenues we can use without unnecessarily politicking and demeaning anyone or the country at large.
Mr Speaker, before I conclude, I want to agree that charity begins at home, and I salute Hon. Nkombo for reminding all of us of that very important adage. In that regard, I wish to state that peace is not peace if it is facilitated by others. It is only peace if it starts in one’s heart.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, democratic governance is the interaction of institutions in a society and of individuals within the institutions. So, democrats must interact democratically with their colleagues in their institutions, such as their families, first. If I want to counsel, for lack of a better example, Hon. Kalaba on marriage, I must make sure that my marriage is stable. Equally, if I am to teach anyone democracy, I must, first, be democratic, and if I am to punish any of the hon. Members on the right for expressing their views, then, I have no right whatsoever to tutor anyone on democracy.
Sir, how many times have you heard hon. Members on your left be punished by their parties for just saying one good word about this Government? Not too long ago, somebody simply acknowledged the fact that His Excellency Mr Edgar Lungu is the first President in Zambia to attend a named function. Today, that hon. Member is under siege because he is not expected to express anything on his mind. All you need to do to confirm that is check social media. Instead, he is expected to ape his leaders, yet the same person wants to come here and pretend that they have the highest democratic credentials.
Hon. Government Members: Shame, shame!
Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, we on your right want to contribute to democracy in SADC and Africa as a whole.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: However ‒ and I say this as a patriotic Zambian ‒ since charity begins at home, as champions of democracy and good governance, we should, first, stop projecting Zambia as a country where female teachers are killed, as we saw happen in Namwala, because of their political persuasion.
Prof. Luo: Shame!
Mr Lubinda: We, as a country, are determined to stop causing the death of innocent citizens by ensuring that lawful instructions of officers of the State, such as the police, are followed. So, when they tell me not to hold a rally because of their inability to police it due to inadequate personnel, I should obey. Democracy is the interaction between individuals and the State, and institutions in that State. Further, it entails that an individual has obligations to the State too. It is not only about the State’s obligations to the individual. So, our colleagues’ not having obligations to the State is not democratic.
Sir, we should improve our record by stopping the practice of turning people with different political persuasions into internally-displaced people. Today, the ministries of Local Government and Agriculture, and Office of the Vice-President are suffering burdened by the responsibility of caring for the many citizens who were displaced from Namwala and had to trek all the way to Mumbwa in Central Province. We must change that record ...
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: ... so that we can stand tall and tell other countries to be democratic.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Sir, as democrats, we must be able to debate and look at people without considering what their surname is or where they come from. We must think of Zambians as Zambians.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: My children carry the name Lubinda, yet the first time they went where that name hails from was early this year. Are those children more Lozi than they are Zambian? Their mother is from Kawambwa. However, ...
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: ... I am sure that when some here hear the name Lubinda, they immediately say, “This one is Lozi.” That has to change if we are to improve our democratic credentials.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Even when sharing positions in political parties and in the Government, we will should not consider where the name ‘Mwale’ comes from because Mwale is a Zambian before he is whatever tribe he is.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Only then can we stand tall and say, “Let us go and tell Zimbabwe to be democratic.” We ought to change ourselves first because charity begins at home.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: It beings here. For example, before we can go and tell others to be democratic, we must, first, be able to accept the will of the people. Once the people have been given the opportunity to decide who should govern them and they have decided, all who lose must say, “You are the winners. For now, you shall govern the country without hindrance from us”. That is democracy.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Sir, to refuse to accept court judgments is also undemocratic. We must respect the rulings of the court.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: We cannot continue to pretend that we are democratic when in our hearts, we know that we are autocratic.
Mr Belemu: Pay!
Mr Lubinda: Sir, I heard someone say “Pay!” I also want to reiterate the words of my friend: Those who aspire to leadership must do what we do on this side.
Hon. Opposition Members: Pay!
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
Just pause for a minute. I know you have very few minutes left.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members on the left, can we have order. Your running commentaries are loud and your voices distinct as distinct as the faces. Please, desist from making those commentaries.
Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Sir.
Sir, as democrats, we must allow intra-party democracy. His Excellency President Edgar Chagwa Lungu does not consider himself a God-sent leader who cannot be challenged. That is why he allowed many people to challenge him. He has also put another party election on the agenda before the next national elections. So, before all other political parties come here to say that they are democratic, let them practise this kind of intra-party democracy first.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Some people are even knighting themselves instead of being knighted by the Queen of England.
Laughter
Mr Lubinda: Is that democratic? I am not democratic if I enthrone myself and go around saying, “I am Chief Lubinda.” It is the people who must enthrone me. Also, it is the Queen of England who must knight our colleagues, not their friends.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Otherwise, if they accept knighthoods from their friends, they are not democrats.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: They are autocrats.
Sir, finally, in view of the fact that charity begins at home, all of us here would have wanted to support the Motion because it could have made a lot of sense. So, I appeal to my friend, Gary, to, for once, listen to me ...
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
It is ‘Hon. Nkombo’.
Mr Lubinda: Yes, Sir, Hon. Nkombo.
For once, he should take heed of my advice and withdraw this Motion and redraft it to be more holistic. It should, for example, say, “In view of the human rights violations and political instability in some parts of SADC, this House urges the Government to continue on its programme of enhancing democracy in Zambian political parties as a contribution to the improvement of democratic governance in the SADC Region.” Then, all of us will say, “Hear, hear!” and vote in favour of the Motion. Short of his doing that, we are saying no to this Motion because it is mischievous.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kalaba): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House. As per the tradition, I, first, thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Gary Nkombo, and the seconder, this lady from Kafue, ...
Laughter
Mr Kalaba: ... Hon. Chonya.
Sir, I concur with my colleagues, the hon. Ministers of Home Affairs and Justice. I think that they have spoken for me and on behalf of many of my colleagues seated on this side of the divide. So, it is not my intention to belabour the issues that they have already addressed. So, I will just explain one issue regarding the SADC Tribunal, whose collapse Hon. Nkombo blamed on one SADC country.
Sir, they say that silence is golden. If one has to speak, it is important to research one’s facts well before rush to the Floor of this august House. In that regard, I am sad to say that Hon. Nkombo’s preparation was very inadequate and extremely anaemic. He should have taken time to prepare more.
Laughter
Mr Kalaba: Sir, the problem with the SADC Tribunal was not only about the Zimbabwe situation, but also about the jurisdictions of member States. The role SADC had in mind for the Tribunal is similar to that of the European Court of Justice under the European Union (EU). However, the Tribunal failed because member States did not agree on certain matters that were being brought before it. The issue of Zimbabwe was just one of the cases. One of the challenges was how the Tribunal could deliberate on a matter whose jurisdiction was, for example, here, in Zambia. Taking a case there was impossible, and that was the case with the issue of the grabbing of land from Zimbabwean white farmers. The farmers and their supporters took their case to the Tribunal for adjudication, but the Zimbabwean Government asked under which jurisdiction the Tribunal would adjudicate over the matter, since the Government had implemented policies based on Zimbabwean laws. That is how the case collapsed. The failure of the case was not on account of SADC leaders’ lack of interest in ensuring that peace and democracy prevailed in the region. To the contrary, it is important to note, as Hon. Lubinda and Hon. Kampyongo have clearly put it, that SADC is one of the best and most well-structured organisation organisations on the African continent. Again, if our knowledge on a matter is inadequate, it is better to take the back seat and ask. That is why we are here.
Sir, it will be good for hon. Members to be visiting our offices, sometimes, so that we interact. Even when business is suspended here, Hon. Nkombo has not bothered to ask me any question on the SADC Tribunal and how SADC operates, yet he finds it prudent to politick on the issue. That is why this country’s economic growth sometimes drags. We like to politick, instead of helping the people who have sent us to this august House to pass progressive laws, we move Motions like this one to pontificate and venerate ourselves. That is not right.
Mr Speaker, another issue of which I took note that Hon. Nkombo raised in his one-hour-twenty-minutes-long presentation, as Hon. Lubinda noted, is that of tribe. Sometimes, it is important for leaders to avoid being tribal because we are here to help Zambia become one, not to divide it. In his presentation, Hon. Nkombo said that some people were killed in the Southern Province and wondered if it could have been a coincidence that the people killed were from one region. It is true the killing is regrettable and nobody celebrates the loss of any life, whether that loss occurs in the Southern Province, Luapula, the Western Province and any other province. Any loss of life is of serious concern to the Government. Therefore, when we speak, as leaders, we need to go beyond partisan or tribal lines.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, some claimed to be experienced hon. Members, but their attitude towards national issues leaves much to be desired. Let me give a piece of advice to Hon. Nkombo because he is growing older ...
Laughter
Mr Kalaba: ... and it is important that he begins to learn these things very quickly.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Laughter
Mr Kalaba: Hon. Nkombo, you must desist from making statements with such kinds of connotations because they will divide this country. We are only as strong as we are united and as weak as we are divided. So, let us reason and operate beyond our political lines. That is important.
Sir, it is true that this Motion has nothing to do with SADC, but rather with the United Party for National Development (UPND), Hon. Gary Nkombo and his – what is the name of your President again?
Laughter
Mr Kalaba: Sir, it is all about them, ...
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kalaba: ... and I think that moving such Motions is not right. It is important that we raise serious matters in this House so that we do not reduce the decorum of this House. We all know that SADC plays a very pivotal role in the economic emancipation of its member States. Therefore, to come here and play cheap politics about it will not help us.
Sir, like my colleagues, I follow suit and congratulate Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa. Comfortingly, we still have remnants of leadership in this country. I see that in him, and that is what we need. Some issues are bipartisan and it is important that we treat them as such. I hope he can take over the UPND.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
Please, avoid those personal comments. You can refer to Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa’s debate, but do not go beyond that to making conjectures because you will embarrass the people involved. It is not necessary to do that, and I am sure you agree with me.
Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, I take heed of your counsel. However, I still wish him well ...
Hon. Government Member: As he takes over.
Mr Kalaba: ... as he takes over the UPND.
Laughter
Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, as Hon. Lubinda had said, this Motion needs to be revised. We may have missed something. So, I think Hon. Gary Nkombo should withdraw this Motion and move one that will be more acceptable to all of us in February when Parliament resumes its sittings. The Motion should say, “In view of the human rights violations and political instability in some parts of SADC, this House urges the Government to continue its programme of enhancing democracy in Zambian political parties as a contribution to democratic governance in the SADC region”. I am sure that will be acceptable ...
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kalaba: ... to all of us because it would be progressive and most of the issues we are ...
Mr Syakalima interjected.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Chirundu!
Do not debate while seated. You are not permitted.
Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, I am very disappointed with the hon. Member for Chirundu because he normally behaves himself.
Laughter
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
Surely, I should not intervene so frequently while you are on the Floor.
Mr Kalaba: I am sorry, Mr Speaker.
Sir, I propose that the Motion be revised. I also assure this august House that our role, as a Government, is noble and our goal is very straightforward. President Lungu has, on several occasions, said that Zambia will use its geographical position to continue playing a pivotal role in the SADC region, and that we will keep this country among one of the eight that have not experienced war or civil strife. We will continue to ensure that peace remains one of the credentials of our country in order for us to continue helping our friends in region and beyond so that we can have the SADC we want by 2030. We want to work within SADC’s Regional Indicative Strategic Development Plan (RISDP) framework so that we industrialise and start being proud as a grouping.
Mr Speaker, if there are any issues that the country needs to bring to the fore, then, my office, the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC PF) and the Southern African Development Community Council of Non-Governmental Organisations (SADC-CNGO) are platforms that are open for us to use. Our colleague should just learn to ask. The scriptures say, “Ask and you shall be given ...”
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!
We do not quote scriptures.
Mr Kalaba: Sir, a certain book I believe in ...
Laughter
Mr Kalaba: ... says, “Ask and you shall receive, knock and the door will be opened, seek and you shall find.”
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, to state the obvious, currently, there is no provision for a right to reply. What we have is an opportunity for you to wind up the debate.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, as I wind up, allow me to educate the hon. Ministers of Justice and Foreign Affairs that hon. Members here are not referred to by their name like they both did, but by the constituencies that they represent, and that is the way it ought to be. They and the green horns should learn so that to call me ‘hon. Member for Mazabuka Central’, as you indicated, not “Hon. Nkombo”, “Hon. Gary” and the rest of the jungle business.
Sir I am grateful to everyone who contributed to this Motion. However, briefly, allow me to state that I am not here as a student of the hon. Ministers for me to couch the Motion as they advised. If it matters to them that it be couched that way, they should do redraft it.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: The Administration of this institution admitted the Motion as it was couched and I am just doing my job by moving it.
Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for living in denial by saying that we must wait until we get to levels of Somalia before SADC can get involved in our affairs, which is a curse in its own right.
Laughter
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Mr Nkombo: I also thank him for making reference to the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum (SADC PF), an organisation of which I have been a member. I am sure you know that the SADC PF does not have legislative powers, as you were here when the Secretary-General of the forum visited addressed us in the amphitheatre and lamented the fact that the SADC heads of ...
Mr Speaker: Order!
Business was suspended from 1255 hours until 1430 hours.
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am winding up, but I ask for your indulgence to take a minute or two more of your time ...
Hon. Government Members: Ah!
Mr Nkombo: … in order for me to correct some wrong impressions.
Sir, before business was suspended, I was saying that the SADC PF is just a forum without legislative powers, unlike the Eastern African Legislation Assembly (EALA) or the direction the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) is taking. Everyone here should be clear on that fact.
Sir, I appreciate the lectures I got from my two colleagues, the hon. Ministers of Justice and Foreign Affairs. For example, the hon. Minister of Justice observed some contradictions between my debate and that of the seconder of this Motion. He also spoke about peace with emphasise. In this regard, I am compelled to state that he might have listened to a different Motion because mine was about human rights violations and democratic governance, not peace.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Nkombo: So, either he was in a trance or he deliberately decided to pour scorn on me.
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: Sir, talking about contradictions, let me draw your attention to a contradiction from the same mouth that talked about contradictions.
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!
I have been very patient with you after I noticed that you are replying to the hon. Ministers’ debates, of which I cautioned you against before business was suspended. As I said, the practice of the House does not provide for a reply. What is provided for is winding up of the Motion. Very clearly, you are going against the practice. You know that, in winding up, you simply thank those who have debated the Motion and say related things. I should not have to repeat that because you are a very senior hon. Member of the House.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, you are right, and the position that you have put forth is not contestable.
Finally, Sir, to the hon. Ministers of Foreign Affairs and Justice, who stated that I must research before I present things to this House, I accept their very good counsel. Suffice it for me to say that when one claims to have special knowledge about a certain subject, such one the English call a charlatan. I do not see how a Grade 7 can tutor a Form V because I know my academic credentials very well.
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: This is what I call the diploma syndrome.
Hon. Government Members: Question!
Laughter
Mr Nkombo: I am a holder of a bachelor’s degree, ...
Interruptions
Mr Nkombo: … and I urge the people who were advising me to try and catch up with me.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. UPND Members called for a division.
Question that, in view of the human rights violations and political instability in some parts of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region, this House urges the Government to persuade SADC to immediately direct its efforts towards improving democratic governance put and the House voted.
Ayes – (33)
Mr Bulaya
Mr Chaatila
Mr Chikote
Mrs Chonya
Mr Fungulwe
Dr Imakando
Dr Kalila
Mr Kamondo
Ms Kasanda
Mr Kufakwandi
Mr Lihefu
Mr Livune
Mr Lufuma
Mr Lumayi
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mr Machila
Mr Mandumbwa
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mulunda
Mr Mutaba
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mwene
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Mwiinga
Mr Nanjuwa
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Nkombo
Mr Sialubalo
Mr Sing’ombe
Mr Syakalima
Ms Tambatamba
Noes – (64)
Mr R. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chali
Ms Chalikosa
Mr Chama
Mr Chansa
Dr Chibanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Chiteme
Mr Chitotela
Mr Chiyalika
Dr Hamukale
Mrs Jere
Mr Kabamba
Mr Kabanda
Mr Kafwaya
Mr Kalaba
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kapata
Mr Kasandwe
Mr Katambo
Mr Kaziya
Mr Kunda
Mr Lubinda
Prof Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Mawere
Mr Mecha
Mr Miti
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukosa
Mr Mulenga
Ms Mulenga
Mr A. C. Mumba
Mr Mundubile
Mr Mung’andu
Mr Mushanga
Mr Mushimba
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutati
Mr Mwakalombe
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwewa
Mr Nkhuwa
Ms Phiri
Mr Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Sichone
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Simbao
Mrs Simukoko
Mr Siwale
Mr Siwanzi
Ms Subulwa
Rev. Sumaili
Mr L. N. Tembo
Mr M. K. Tembo
Dr Wanchinga
Mrs Wina
Mr Zimba
Mr M. Zulu
Abstention – (01)
Mr Chabi
Question that, in view of the human rights violations and political instability in some parts of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region, this House urges the Government to persuade SADC to immediately direct its efforts towards improving democratic governance accordingly negatived.
_________
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES NO. 2 OF 2017
The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Supply to consider Supplementary Estimates No. 2 of 2017.
Mr Speaker, I am a bearer of a message from His Excellency the President recommending the favourable consideration of the Motion that I now lay on the Table.
Mr Mutati laid the paper on the Table.
Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, it is my duty to commence this Motion by updating the hon. Members on the performance of the Budget.
Sir, between January and October, 2017, the domestic revenues were 2.3 per cent above target. This over-performance was mainly on account of the reforms that the Government put in place, especially the appointment of tax agents and enhanced tax law enforcement. On the other hand, total expenditure during the first ten months of 2017 was below the planned levels by 9.7 per cent. This is explained by measures that the Treasury had taken to spend within the resource envelope. Given this good performance, the Budget deficit, on a cash basis, is expected to close 2017 within the target of 7 per cent of the gross domestic product (GDP). The positive performance is a reassurance of the Government’s determination to achieve fiscal consolidation and fitness for macroeconomic stability and private sector stimulation.
Sir, despite our good economic performance, it is still necessary for us to realign the Budget. Some of the major realignments that have necessitated the Supplementary Budget are:
- savings from the Budget and allocations from the Contingency Vote that have been reallocated to needy areas, particularly in the ministries of Tourism and Art, and Agriculture, and the management of disasters;
- realignment of the domestic debt service that has resulted from the shift from the riskier external debt financing to domestic financing; and
- provision for donor funds that were not earlier provided for.
Mr Speaker, in view of the above, I now have the honour to present Supplementary Estimates No. 2 of 2017. These estimates have been prepared in accordance with Article 203 of the Constitution of Zambia (amendment) Act of 2016, which provides as follows:
“The Minister responsible for finance shall, where the amount appropriated in an Appropriation Account for a financial year is insufficient to meet the expenditure in that financial year, lay before the National Assembly for approval, in accordance with Article 202 (5), a supplementary estimate of expenditure.”
Mr Speaker, this supplementary budget proposes additional expenditure over the approved Budget of only K256,019,862 or 0.4 per cent of the Budget, of which K14 million is donor funds. As you may recall, the House approved K942,590,539 worth of additional expenditure under Supplementary Estimate No. 1 of 2017. That brings the total supplementary budget to K1,198,610,390 or a variation of just under 2 per cent of the Budget, which is very low compared with variations in the recent past, which have averaged 17 per cent. Evidently, we are having very minimal Budget disruptions and variations and I attribute this to the measures we have put in place, which include a strengthened Treasury management system on both the cash management and commitment control side. The record speaks to the Patriotic Front (PF) Government’s undertaking to ensure fiscal discipline and adherence to what we have set ourselves to implement.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, I thank the House for its unanimous support for the Supplementary Estimates.
I thank you, Sir.
Question put and agreed to.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES NO. 2 OF 2017
Votes 01/01, 02/01, 03/01, 06/01, 08/01, 08/10, 11/01, 15/01, 15/02, 17/01, 17/02, 17/04, 17/13, 17/18, 17/24, 17/32, 17/36, 17/45, 17/51, 17/57, 19/01, 31/01, 31/08, 68/08, 76/01, 77/02, 86/03, 89/02 and 99/02 ordered is to stand part of the Estimates.
_________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
Supplementary Estimates No. 2 of 2017 reported approved.
Report adopted.
Question put and agreed to and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect hereto today.
_________
BILL
FIRST READING
The Supplementary Appropriation Bill, 2017
Second Reading, now.
SECOND READING
THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL, 2017
The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Sir, following the approval of the Supplementary Estimates No. 2 of 2017, which will provide the Government with additional funds with which to provide essential services during the financial year ending 31st December, 2017, I now have to present to this House the legislation necessary to give effect to the resolution of the House. The Bill before the House is, therefore, intended to legislate the Supplementary Estimate No. 2 of 2017, which has been thoroughly debated in this House. I, therefore, do not expect it to attract another debate.
Mr Speaker, I beg to move.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, I thank the House for the unanimous support.
Mr Livune: Question!
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.
Committed to a committee of the Whole House.
Committee, now.
_______
BILLS
HOUSE IN COMMITTEE
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEE in the
Chair]
THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION BILL, 2017
Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
First and Second Schedules ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Title agreed to.
________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:
The Supplementary Appropriation (2017) Bill, 2017
Third Reading today.
Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: We have a technical problem because you cannot raise a point of order on the hon. Minister.
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is a procedural issue.
Mr Speaker: I know that it is a procedural issue. I am trying to find a suitable solution. Can you communicate to the Clerk.
Mr Mwiimbu: There is a breach there that has prompted me to raise a point of order.
Mr Speaker: Do you want to raise a point of order on the hon. Minister?
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, there is no procedure there and the Standing Orders do not say so.
Mr Speaker: What is your point of order?
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the point of order I am raising is that the hon. Minister is raising issues without leave of the House. The procedure is that the House must give leave before we debate the issues.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: On which order are you relying, hon. Member?
Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, according to convention, whenever the Standing Orders are suspended, the Chair asks the House whether it grants leave for the hon. Minister to proceed. If the House grants its leave, then, the hon. Minister proceeds. However, we are not following that procedure now.
Mr Livune: That is right!
Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of Finance, please, seek the leave of the House.
Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, by leave of the House, now.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
THRD READING
The following Bill was read the third time and passed:
The Supplementary Appropriation (2017) Bill, 2017
SECOND READING
THE INDUSTRIAL AND LABOUR RELATIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2017
The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mrs Simukoko): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Mr Speaker, it is necessary to amend the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, Cap 269 of the Laws of the Zambia, to strengthen the ability of the ministry to effectively execute its mandate.
Sir, as you may be aware, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is charged with the critical responsibility of administering labour and social security matters in the country to ensure an efficient labour market, industrial harmony, effective social security system, high labour productivity and creation of decent jobs. Specifically, the mandate of the ministry is outlined in Government Gazette No. 836 of 2016, as follows:
- educational and occupational assessment services;
- employment policy;
- factories;
- industrial and labour relations;
- labour policy;
- productivity management;
- productivity policy;
- occupational safety and health policy;
- occupational safety and health services;
- social safety net; and
- social security policy.
Sir, the ministry is also charged with the administration of the Employment Act, Cap 268 of the Laws of Zambia, and the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, Cap 269 of the Laws of Zambia, among other acts.
Mr Speaker, the ministry has, over the years, been facing serious challenges in providing industrial and labour relations services like the following:
- registration of trade unions,
- registrations of employers’ organisations
- registrations of recognition agreements;
- conduct of elections for trade unions and employers’ organisations;
- resolution of labour and industrial disputes
- attestation of contracts of employment, and
- facilitation of social dialogue through Tripartite Consultative Labour Council meetings.
Mr Speaker, the challenges arise from inadequate and erratic funding to the ministry, which has a presence in fifty-four districts and, by end of 2018, it will have a presence in all the 110 districts countrywide after a collaborative arrangement with the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) allowed for the appointment of some council employees to execute labour-related functions in line with the provisions of the Employment Act. This move will require adequate resources if we are to be visible on the ground and enforce adherence to labour laws.
Mr Speaker, the current levels of funding are too inadequate to enable the officers in the districts to enforce the provisions of various labour laws. For example, funding for labour inspections has reduced from K1,950,200 in 2014 to only K600,000 in 2018. You may also know that the ministry is required to hold, at least, two Tripartite Consultative Labour Council meetings per year. When it has been necessary to hold extraordinary or special meetings, it has been a challenge due to inadequate resources, and that adversely affects social dialogue. Superintending over the elections of trade union leaderships has also proved to be a costly matter, as there are about sixty-eight trade unions in the country.
Mr Speaker, from the foregoing, it is very clear that the allocations are not even adequate to meet our needs for Lusaka alone. The meagre resources must be shared with all the districts for labour and occupational safety, and health inspections in the country. In a bid to meet the costs related to the provision of services by the ministry, it is imperative to revise existing fees and introduce new ones because the existing fees on registration of employment agencies and trade unions have not been revised since 1997. Additionally, there are no fees currently charged for most of the services that the ministry provides.
Mr Speaker, in a nutshell, the justification for the introduction of new fees and revision of the old fee structure are as follows:
- the measure will ensure that charges for public services provided by the ministry are at cost-recovery levels, considering the high cost of administering these services and the high returns on such services. For instance, an employment agency licence costs K27, but the costs incidental to the supervision of such an agency are over K5,000, covering aspects like security clearance, monitoring and evaluation of the agency and resolving labour complaints that arise from relationships contracted by the agencies;
- the revenue needed to strengthen the enforcement regime of the Labour Inspectorate will be increased to enhance public service delivery. Currently, there is a public outcry about the non-enforcement of labour laws. The revenue will be targeted at the provision of duty facilitation operatives to address the gaps, such as the procurement of vehicles for inspections in the districts;
- the burden on the National Treasury, which has limited fiscal space, will be reduced, as the interventions are expected to be largely self-financing because the ministry, under Appropriation-in-Aid (AIA), will be allowed to retain up to 50 per cent or more of its revenue to support its operations;
- the measure will promote increased adherence to employment and labour regulations, which will contribute to the promotion of the decent work agenda;
- the measure will supplement the Government’s funding from the Treasury, which has been inadequate and erratic over the years. There are times when funds have not been available for administration and inspections in the provinces across the country. For example, the last funding for the department on the Copperbelt Province, which has ten districts, was K6,000 in September, 2010. On average, such an amount can cater for less than ten inspections, yet the ministry has a duty to continuously enforce labour laws and regulate the labour market; and
- the measure will also cater for increased activities arising from an increase in economic activities, particularly in the construction, mining, tourism and agricultural sectors.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, it is our prayer that, through the Industrial and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill, 2017, the revenue projected to be generated will facilitate the effective implementation of key programmes and activities under the ministry. The revenue to be collected will supplement the budget for labour inspections and increase their coverage. The regulations will also increase adherence to and compliance with labour laws, promotion of industrial harmony and good employer-employee relations. They will also go a long way in promoting the decent work agenda for Zambia, which is one of the key outcomes of the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP). It is for this reason that I implore the hon. Members of this House to support the Bill.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for giving me the opportunity to present the report of your Committee on the Industrial and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill, No. 20 of 2017. It is with pleasure that I represent the Chairperson of your Committee, who is out of station.
Sir, your Committee considered the Bill pursuant to its mandate set out in Standing Order No. 157(2) of the National Assembly.
Mr Speaker, most of the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee were in support of the Bill. In this regard, I will simply highlight some of the salient points that they raised in our interaction.
Sir, your Committee notes that, if enacted, Clause 8, which seeks to amend Section 65 of the principal Act, will entail that a recognition agreement will only be registered by the hon. Minister upon payment of the prescribed fee. Further, you’re your Committee notes that a recognition agreement has two parties, that is, the employer and trade union, yet the amendment does not state which party should pay the prescribed fee. In this regard, your Committee recommends that Section 65(3) be amended to clearly state that the prescribed fees will be paid by both parties on a fifty-fifty basis if the parties do not have an agreement between them. This is in order to avoid disputes.
Mr Speaker, your Committee also observes that Clause 4, which seeks to amend Section 35, requires trade unions that have referred a dispute to the congress for reconciliation to pay a prescribed fee. However, your Committee also notes that the word ‘reconciliation’ does not appear under Section 35(2) and (3) where the insertion is being proposed. Instead, the word used is “arbitration”. In light of this, the Committee recommends that the proposed amendment in Section 35(2) and (3) of the principal Act be recast so that the word “arbitration” is duly replaced with “reconciliation”.
Sir, your Committee observes that the Bill, in Clause 5, seeks to amend Section 36 so as to provide for a prescribed fee when registering an employers’ association. However, the proposed amendment does not state whether or not a refund will be made in the event that the Commissioner of Labour refuses to register an association after it applied and paid for registration. In light of this, your Committee recommends that the proposed amendment be recast to read as follows: “On payment of the prescribed non-refundable fee”.
Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!
Mr Nkombo: Sir, your Committee also observes that if Clause 9 is enacted in its current form, the Bill will require parties to a collective agreement to lodge copies of the agreement upon payment of a prescribed fee. However, the proposed amendment does not clearly state which party to the collective agreement should bear the cost of lodging the collective agreement. In light of this, your Committee recommends that the amendment be recast to clearly state that the prescribed fee must be paid by both parties on a fifty-fifty basis in the absence of an agreement between them. This is in order to avoid disputes.
Sir, the Bill also seeks to amend Section 79 so as to require members of the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council to pay membership fees as may be prescribed by the hon. Minister. However, according to the International Labour Organisation (ILO), the representatives of social partners should be recognised as equal partners in the spirit of promoting social dialogue. It follows, therefore, that there can be no equality when one party charges the other for being a member of the council. In this regard, your Committee recommends that Clause 12 of the Bill be deleted because it is a violation of the core principles of tripartism under ILO.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, your Committee thanks all the stakeholders who appeared before it, especially Dr Machungwa and members of the Zambia Institute of Human Resources Management (ZIHRM), who appeared before it on a Saturday and submitted both oral and written submissions. Your Committee’s gratitude also goes to you for according it the opportunity to study the Bill. Your Committee also appreciates the services rendered to it by the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff during the deliberations.
I thank you, Sir.
Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.
HOUSE IN COMMITTEE
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
THE INDUSTRIAL AND LABOUR RELATIONS (Amendment) Bill, 2017
Clauses, 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Title agreed to.
CLAUSE 4 – (Amendment of Section 35)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, on page 3, in lines 13 to 15, by the deletion of Clause 4.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 5, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 6 – (Amendment of Section 48)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, on page 3, in line 19, by the deletion of the words “Section 48(1)” and the substitution therefor of the words “Section 48(2)”.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 7, 8 and 9, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 10 – (Amendment of Section 72)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 10, on page 4, in lines 7 to 9, by the deletion of Clause 10.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 11, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 12 – (Amendment of Section 79)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 12, on page 4, in lines 13 to 17, by the deletion of Clause 12.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:
The Industrial and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill, 2017
Report adopted.
Third Reading, today.
THIRD READING
The following Bill was read a third time and passed:
The Industrial and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill, 2017
SECOND READING
THE EMPLOYMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2017
Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Sir, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is charged with the administration of the Employment Act, Cap 268 of the Laws of Zambia.
Sir, over the years, the ministry been facing serious challenges in carrying our labour inspections and employment services. However, due to serious operational challenges stemming from inadequate and erratic funding, the ministry is unable to effectively provide services countrywide. As I stated earlier, the ministry has a presence in fifty-four districts and, by end of 2018, will have a presence in all the 110 districts countrywide, which will imply a need for additional funding to ensure that our presence is felt on the ground so as to promote adherence to labour laws. unfo
Mr Speaker, to give the House an idea of the current levels of funding to the Labour, and Occupational Safety and Health inspectorates, below were the allocations over the last five years.
Labour Inspections
Year Amount (K)
2014 1,950,200
2015 3,573,937
2016 350,000
2017 545,000
2018 600,000
Occupational Safety and Health Inspections
Year Amount (K)
2014 1,574,052
2015 1,608,575
2016 403,844
2017 729,109
2018 816,910
Mr Speaker, the poor levels of funding to the ministry were noted by the hon. Members of this august House on both sides during the debate on for the 2018 Budget.
Sir, in a bid to make the cost of providing services by the ministry, it is imperative to revise the existing fees and introduce new ones because the current fees on registration of employment agencies and trade unions have not been revised since 1997, and there are no fees charged for most of the services the ministry provides.
Mr Speaker, labour is a key factor of production. Therefore, it must be effectively managed. The proposed amendments are a bold step by the Government to help the sector to contribute to the socio-economic growth of our country.
Mr Speaker, I have already stated the justifications for the introduction of new fees and revision of the old fee structure.
Mr Speaker, in conclusion, it is our prayer that the revenue projected to be generated through the Employment (Amendment) Bill, 2017, will facilitate the effective implementation of key programmes and activities under the ministry, supplement the budget for labour inspections and increase the coverage of inspections. The regulations will also increase compliance with labour laws, and that is critical to the promotion of decent work in Zambia, which is one of the key outcomes of the 7NDP. It is for this reason that I implore the hon. Members of this House to support the Bill.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, in accordance with its mandate and the provisions of the Standing Orders, your Committee was tasked to scrutinise the Employment (Amendment) Bill No. 21 of 2017. In order to acquit itself with the ramifications of the Bill, your Committee sought both written and oral submissions from various stakeholders. I now present the salient findings of the Committee from its deliberations on the Bill.
Sir, you may wish to know that there are no provisions under the current Employment Act that empower the hon. Minister responsible for labour to prescribe a fee for the performance of any act by the Labour Commissioner or any other authorised person. As such, most of the services provided by the ministry are on gratis. This Bill will, therefore, among other things, strengthen the enforcement of labour administration and lessen the burden on the national Treasury in view of the limited fiscal space.
Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that, in Clause 2, the Bill seeks to amend Section 11 to empower the Labour Commissioner to impose a fee for late submission of returns by an employer. While appreciating this provision, your Committee is concerned that the proposed provision does not compel erring employees to pay a fee. Further, your Committee is worried that the enforcement of this provision would be difficult as it could be prone top abuse, since the actual fee is not prescribed, but appears to have been left to the discretion of the Labour Commissioner. Your Committee also observes that the use of the word ‘fee’ is misplaced. In light of the above, it recommends that the proposed amendment be recast to compel erring employers to pay a fine, not a fee, for non-compliance. Your Committee also notes that the breach a statutory directive does not attract a “fee’, as provided for in the Bill, but a ‘penalty’, hence the latter term should be used.
Mr Speaker, your Committee appreciates the proposal to charge a fee on delay or failure to report any dismissal to the labour office, as provided for in Clause 4, which seeks to amend Section 25 of the principal Act. This provision is likely to enhance efficiency of the people tasked with the responsibility of discharging human resource functions. However, the Committee also observes that the discretion given to the Labour Commission in the imposition of the penalty by the use of the word ‘may’ will compromise compliance. Therefore, your Committee recommends the substitution of the word ‘shall’ for the word ‘may’. Your Committee further recommends that failure to comply with the provision attracts a ‘penalty’, not a ‘fee’, to be paid within a stipulated period of time.
Sir, your Committee also observed that charging a fee, as provided for in Clause 5, will discourage some employers from getting contracts attested, and ultimately disadvantage vulnerable and less-educated workers because the more educated workers can sign contracts without the need for attestation. Your Committee knows that the rationale behind attestation of written contracts of employment is to protect an employee who is unable to read and write from exploitation by the employer. In addition, protecting employees from exploitation is an inherent part of the Government’s responsibility. In light of the above, your Committee recommends that the proposed provision be deleted and broad consultations made before the fees are introduced. Further, your Committee observes that Clause 7 seeks to empower the Labour Commissioner to impose a fee on the settlement of disputes between employers and employees, but is of the view that requiring poor employees to pay a fee would disempower them from seeking the protection of the ministry due to a lack of finances. Additionally, this piece of legislation is more likely to negatively affect the employees than the employers. In light of the above, the recommendation of the Committee is that this provision be deleted too.
Sir, in conclusion, I am grateful to the Committee for allowing me to act as its Chairperson. I am also grateful to you for granting us the opportunity to scrutinise the Employment (Amendment) Bill No. 21 of 2017. Your Committee also thanks the hon. Minister and her staff for appearing before it, which has made it possible for the Bills to go through the Floor of this House without any acrimonious contestation. Your Committee also thanks the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support rendered to it throughout its deliberations. Finally, your Committee is also indebted to all the witness, especially the ones I mentioned earlier, who appeared before it for their co-operation by coming on a Saturday morning to share some insights on the Bills.
I thank you, Sir.
Mrs Simukoko: Mr Speaker, I have taken note of all the submissions of the Chairperson of the Committee, which I thank for working very hard to ensure that these Bills were considered, including by working on a weekend. I also thank the Committee for the advice it gave us when we appeared before it.
I thank you, Sir.
Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.
Committed to a committee of the Whole House.
Committee today.
Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, before the House resolves into Committee, I would like to clarify one procedural issue.
On Wednesday, 29th November, 2017, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House moved a Motion to suspend Standing Orders 20, 21, 22(1) and 100. Standing Order 20 provides for the days and times of sittings, Standing Order 21 provides for the automatic adjournment, as does Standing Orders 22. Standing Order 100, which is the subject of my clarification, provides for the Stages of a Bill as follows:
“Not more than one stage of a Bill shall be taken at the same sitting without the permission of the House”.
So, the permission of the House is provided for in Standing Order 100. In this regard, given the suspension of the Standing Order, there is no need for the leave of the House to be sought. It is automatically granted when the relevant Order is suspended.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
__________
HOUSE IN COMMITTEE
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
THE EMPLOYMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2017
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of Section 11)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 3, in lines 6 to 11, by the deletion of Clause 2.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 3 – (Insertion of Section 11(a))
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, on page 3, in lines 12 to 30, by the deletion of Clause 3.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 4 – (Amendment of Section 25)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move amendment in Clause 4 on page 3, in lines 23 to 24:
- by the deletion of subsection (3) and the substitution therefor of the following:
“(3) A person who contravenes this section commits an offence”; and
- by the renumbering of Clause 4 as Clause 2.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 5 – (Amendment of Section 32)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 4, in lines 1 to 3, by the deletion of Clause 5.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 6 – (Amendment to Section 56)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 6, on page 4, in lines 4 to 6, by the deletion of Clause 6.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 7 – (Amendment of Section 64)
Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7, on page 4, in lines 7 and 9, by the deletion of Clause 7.
Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.
Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Title agreed to.
__________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through the Committee with amendments:
The Employment (Amendment) Bill, 2017
Report Stage today.
REPORT STAGE
The Employment (Amendment) Bill, 2017
Report adopted.
Third reading, today.
THIRD READING
The following Bill was read the third time and passed:
The Employment (Amendment) Bill, 2017
REPORT STAGE
The Independent Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 2017
Report adopted.
Third reading today.
THIRD READING
The following Bills were read the third time and passed:
The Independent Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 2017.
The Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (Amendment) Bill, 2017
________
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
VOTE 99 – (Office of the President – Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – K16,162,230,830).
(Consideration resumed)
The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to issue a policy statement on the 2018 Estimates for Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, Vote 99.
Madam Chairperson, over the last few months, there have been concerns from stakeholders regarding the accuracy of information on Zambia’s debt and the country’s risk profile in the medium term. The Government is even more concerned about the debt and other economic development issues. In that regard, I wish to state that the Government has been very transparent in all its borrowings. As hon. Members may be aware, I present to the House all the loans contracted by the Government domestically and externally biannual economic reports. The last report, which was presented to the august House in August, this year, indicates the loans contracted in the first half of the year. As per the tradition, I will present the report for the full year at the end of the first quarter of next year. All the records on debt are available and have been shared with all our partners, including the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, with whom we conduct debt sustainability analysis exercises jointly. Our debt numbers are accurate and open to all who care to have them.
Madam Chairperson, the Government, under the leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, …
Hon. UPND Members: Question!
Mr Mutati: … has taken bold steps to ensure continued debt sustainability and low risk of debt distress. In this regard, the Cabinet discussed and adopted measures that our debt management activities support economic growth, job creation and poverty reduction. The main thrust of the guidance is a directive on the reduction of new external borrowing limited to concessional loans with economic returns. The Government will also pursue more domestic resource mobilisation to mitigate the exchange rate risk associated with external borrowing.
Madam Chairperson, at the operational level, regular debt sustainability analyses will be undertaken to inform debt management. The Government has also developed and published a medium term debt management strategy to guide the implementation of debt management activities to help us achieve the desired composition of the Government debt portfolio, which captures our preferences with regards to the costs and risks of debt. The review and strengthening of the Laws and Guarantees Act, which is aimed at enhancing Parliament’s oversight in the debt contraction process, is also in progress.
Madam Chairperson, I wish to reiterate that debt management is a key component of our economic management and resource mobilisation option to enable us meet the Government’s financing needs, in particular financing for projects to bridge the significant infrastructural gap.
Madam, the proposed budget for Vote 99 is K16.13 billion, which has been broken down into external and domestic debt service, and contingency.
Madam Chairperson, K7.27 billion has been proposed for external debt servicing and is broken down as follows:
- K3.41 billion for payment of principal and interest to multilateral creditors;
- K3.64 billion for payment of principal and interest to bilateral non-Paris Club creditors; and
- K217 million for payment of principal and interest to bilateral Paris Club creditors.
Madam Chairperson, K6.97 billion has been proposed for domestic debt servicing, broken down as follows:
- K2.88 billion for payment of interest on Government bonds;
- K3.88 billion for payment of interest on Treasury bills; and
- K215.31 million for payment of principal and interest to local commercial banks.
Madam Chairperson, K1.71 billion has been proposed as medium-term pay reform and K178.34 million as contingency.
Madam Chairperson, I hope that the statements and explanations have been elaborate and detailed enough, and now recommend that Vote 99 be considered for approval of this august House.
Madam Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to debate the Vote for Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure.
Madam Chairperson, I expected the hon. Minister of Finance to tell us, in very categorical terms, the sustainability of the debt that Zambia has incurred and its effects. I am aware that the country is on the verge of bankruptcy.
Mr Ngulube: Question!
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: That is a fact. Only stringent measures and the inculcation of financial discipline into our colleagues on your right will save us from bankruptcy.
Madam Chairperson, currently, the Government has no money for capital expenditure.
Ms Lubezhi: That is right!
Mr Mwiimbu: We are aware that around 55 per cent of the Budget we have approved is recurrent expenditure while 30 per cent is for debt servicing, leaving only 15 per cent for capital expenditure. Further, the 15 per cent that is potentially available for capital expenditure might not be available because there is financial strain in this country. Even the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) will not be able to finance that gap, and that is why we urge the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that the negotiations over International Monetary Fund (IMF) bailout package succeed. I know our colleagues do not like the term ‘bailout’, but it is fact that is exactly what it is. If we do not get it, we are trouble.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, very soon we will start appealing for debt relief from our creditor countries because we will not be able to finance debt servicing in the next two years. The Eurobonds we acquired will mature very soon, yet there is no money to service them.
Ms Lubezhi: Yes!
Mr Mwiimbu: The IMF, World Bank and other multilateral institutions have advised us to buy back those Eurobonds because they are not sustainable. We used to advice our colleagues on the Floor of this House that reckless borrowing …
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: … would land us in trouble, but the hon. Minister’s predecessor and his colleagues did not listen to us. They said they knew what they were doing and that they had created a sinking fund that would enable us …
Mr Sing’ombe: Where is it?
Mr Mwiimbu: … to repay the debt. However, the fact is that we are unable to pay and this is why the hon. Minister of Finance is struggling to sustain the funding to the Electronic Voucher (e-Voucher) System ...
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: … and road projects in this country. He has no money, and I feel pity for him because he did not contract the loans that are hanging on his head.
Mr Ndalamei: He needs help.
Mr Mwiimbu: He was with us this side when the loans were contracted.
Ms Lubezhi: Mwaona manje!
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, it is said that falsehoods have short legs. We have caught up with them.
Mr Kambita: Tell them!
Mr Mwiimbu: We have no money. Just yesterday and a few days earlier, we were debating the developments in our provinces and we were glad to hear from some of our colleagues about the various developmental projects implemented in their provinces. However, when it came to the Southern Province, we were shocked and depressed to hear the Hon. Minister say that his Government did not care what happened on Mazabuka/Kafue Road because there were other projects being implemented in Zambia.
Mr Miyanda: Who told you?
Mr Sing’ombe: That is what he said.
Mr Mwiimbu: That is what he said.
Interruptions
Mr Mwiimbu: However, we know that this country needs that road to make money. That is an economical route that has been used by every Government to sustain this country economically, yet we are allowing the road’s condition to deteriorate. So, even as we consider these debts, I ask the hon. Minister of Finance to ensure that the road is rehabilitated or the transporters will be unable to use it very, and we do not have an alternative route.
Mr Sing’ombe: When you are bankrupt.
Interruptions
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I do not intend to be an alarmist, but it is a fact that the current situation in the country is very gloomy. The hon. Minister has been telling people that he would do this and that, but it is not possible for him to do anything because no one will give him the money. Where will he get the money to construct the expensive Ndola/Lusaka Dual Carriageway? Who will finance it when the country is on the verge of bankruptcy? We must be careful with the way we do things.
Madam Chairperson, I know that even if the hon. Minister of Finance’s colleagues do not listen to him even if he tells them to be financially prudent. To the contrary, in their ministries, they enter into contracts worth millions of dollars, yet the money is not there.
Mr Sing’ombe: It is a spoilt regime!
Mr Mwiimbu: I know the reason why the hon. Minister could not increase the salaries of public workers to a reasonable level is that he does not have the money.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Hon. Opposition Member: MPs!
Mr Mwiimbu: I do not want to talk about the hon. Members of Parliament, but that is another fact.
Madam Chairperson, most of the projects initiated three or four years ago have stalled because there is no money, and I cannot blame the hon. Minister of Finance for that because he inherited this problem. The problem is with his colleagues.
Mr Syakalima: He followed the problem.
Mr Mwiimbu: I hear that he followed the problem and found it.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: However, there is nothing he can do. The only thing I beg him to do is ensure that there is financial prudence on the part of his colleagues. He must scrutinise and approve every contract before it is signed by any of his colleagues. Otherwise, we will find ourselves in trouble.
Ms Kasune: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, in the next few years, we will be begging in this country and end up like our neighbouring country, where inflation had risen exponentially. We do not want that situation here.
Madam Chairperson, I support this Vote because I have no choice. However, it is reckless on our part to continue borrowing when we know we cannot afford that. I have been hearing some people say they will borrow and create other bonds. How will they sustain those bonds?
Mr Belemu: The Chinese!
Mr Mwiimbu: It is not possible. If they borrow from the other side where they are fond of borrowing, there are conditionalities, one of which I am aware is for us to allow the citizens of that country to come and settle here even if they are not skilled, thereby denying Zambians employment opportunities.
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: So, the Government’s contracting of concessional loans is also allowing unskilled labour to come into this country and we are now witnessing a situation in which foreigners push wheelbarrows and sweep the streets. Is that what we want for this country? That is being irresponsible.
Sir, I recall that the Patriotic Front (PF) campaigned against the conditionalities of concessional loans. However, suddenly, it has become happy and proud to associate itself with them. Meanwhile, our people have no jobs. Even in the road contracts they are giving to foreigners, the people engaged to carry picks and shovels are foreigners. Why is this Government doing that? Where does it think our people will find work? Our colleagues are being irresponsible.
Madam Chairperson, there is always a price to pay for such decisions and there will come a time when the people of Zambia will rise against our colleagues. When that happens, they should not say they were not warned. How can they allow foreigners to come and start roasting maize on the streets?
Ms Mwashingwele: Yes!
Mr Mwiimbu: That is what the foreigners, who claim to be investors, are doing. Consequently, the only job left for our people is street vending, and our people have become so poor that they cannot afford new clothes. No wonder, the salaula industry has grown in this country. The only clothes our people can afford are salaula. If one checked on all the streets of Lusaka, there are heaps and heaps of salaula clothes on sale and our people are buying them, including dirty underpants. That is because our friends in the Government have denied our people the right to decent jobs.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu: The conditions of the loans the Government is contracting are hurting us and our people. Let us have a conscience and be considerate of our people. Do our colleagues even drive on Lumumba and Chachacha roads and see what is obtaining there? Our people are forced to sell in squalid and dirty conditions that have brought us cholera.
Hon. Government Member: Aah!
Mr Sing’ombe: Yes!
Mr Mwiimbu: There are reports of our people dying of cholera in Lusaka while more than 500 are sick. Are we not ashamed? Speaking for myself, I am ashamed.
Mr Syakalima: Shame on them!
Mr Mwiimbu: Cholera is a disease that arises out of squalor, and our people have no choice, but to trade in squalid conditions. They even endanger their lives trading on the railway line. If you passed through Kamwala and checked on your left as you are ascend the flyover bridge, you will see that the railway line is closed by people selling there and cooking maize and nshima, all because we have denied them jobs and made them slaves in their country.
Madam, it is high time we rose above board and became patriotic. True patriotism is not about condoning wrong things. I cannot be the kind of patriot who praises my colleagues when they do wrong things.
Laughter
Mr Mwiimbu: I will never be.
Hon. Government Members: Why?
Mr Mwiimbu: If they want me to praise them, I can praise them for destroying our country. That is the only praise I can give them.
Madam, I hope that my colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance, has heard. It is his colleagues who must assist him, not us. We have told him the problem, but he has to shoulder the burden. The country is in dire straits and needs solutions to the problems in which it is.
Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I support this Vote reluctantly.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!
Dr Kambwili (Roan): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Vote.
Madam, from the outset, I wish to mention to the hon. Minister of Finance that his revelation that we will spend K7 billion on debt servicing is very saddening. This is a black Wednesday for Zambia, and I am sure the former Minister of Finance, wherever he is, remembers my words over this issue of debt. I was against reckless borrowing when I was in the Cabinet. Sometimes, we borrowed money for things needlessly.
Ms Katuta: Hear, hear!
Dr Kambwili: For instance, US$ 50 million was borrowed for putting …
The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Dr Kambwili!
Let me guide you.
Dr Kambwili: Always!
The Chairperson: Always, yes, because you give me very little choice.
You are aware that, as a former Cabinet Minister, you are privy to a lot of information. Further, you were party to the decisions that were made because of the principle of collective responsibility. Further, you swore an oath of secrecy. For those reasons, I caution you not to divulge confidential information to which you were privy while in the Cabinet.
Please, heed my counsel as you continue with your debate.
Dr Kambwili: Madam, all debts that were contracted by Government are in the public domain. So, there is no issue of disclosure. Who does not know that we borrowed money to build the Kenneth Kaunda International Airport (KKIA) and roads? Why should that be a Cabinet secret? What I am trying to say is that some of the borrowing has been reckless …
The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Dr Kambwili!
It seems you need more of my counsel.
Dr Kambwili: No, ndelandafye!
Mr Chisopa: Ba president!
The Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]
The Chairperson: Hon. Members, before business was suspended, Hon. Dr Kambwili, who was debating, made reference to some discussions that took place in the Cabinet when he was still a member of it and I had guided him against that. Before he continues, I would like to guide further.
Hon. Members, I have noticed a growing trend of hon. Members wanting to engage Presiding Officers in debate when guided, but that is not acceptable. When Presiding Officers guide you, you cannot engage them in a debate. Simply heed the counsel and move on with your debate.
Hon. Dr Kambwili, I want you to refrain from discussing what took place in Cabinet meetings that he attended because we are not interested in knowing who agreed or disagreed with what decisions. We are only interested in your views on the Vote on the Floor. Again, my guidance is that I do not want to hear you say, “Those who were in the Cabinet with me know that I said …” like you had started. We are not interested in that kind of debate.
Please, continue heeding my guidance as you continue your debate.
Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was trying to say that some of the debts that have been contracted by the Government should never have been contracted. For instance, the Government borrowed US$50 million to install security cameras in Lusaka. Surely, is that an emergency? Is Lusaka the whole of Zambia? Why should people in the North-Western Province and Mporokoso pay back a US$50 million loan used to install cameras to improve security for the people in Lusaka? That is being imprudent.
Madam, we are in the current debt burden because some of unnecessary borrowing. For instance, the construction of the Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe International Airport in Ndola, where less than seven aeroplanes land on a weekly basis, is a waste of resources. Why should we spend US$375 million on building that airport? Maybe, we can accept the resources spent on the construction of the Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula International Airport because of the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) Conference that was held in Livingstone. What is the justification for borrowing US$375 million for the airport in Ndola, which receives very few flights, when we have decided that our economic mainstay should be agriculture?
Madam, the budget for the agricultural sector is K6.8 billion, yet we will spend K7 billion to on debt servicing just for this year, and I know that this is not the final figure. We just approved the Supplementary Estimates today, and that is just one way of hiding the figures. At the end of the year, we will be presented with a Supplementary Budget for debt servicing and that is when we will know the final figure we will spend on debts. This should not be encouraged. We should be prudent in the way we manage our resources.
Madam, I have a lot of confidence in the hon. Minister of Finance, oh, I am sorry. I will be accused of debating another hon. Member. However, when people are on this side of the House, they speak a different language, and this must come to an end. Some of us speak the same language whether we are in the Government or the Opposition because we are principled.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kambwili: People know that and they cannot run away from it. It is just that I have been told not to disclose.
Mr Mutale: Question!
Dr Kambwili: Madam, the way I speak here is the way I used to speak when I was on the other side, and nobody can dispute that. That is what is called being principled. People must not condemn borrowing when they are on this side of the House but, within a year of being on the other side as Ministers, borrow US$5 billion. When I left the Government, our debt was about US$7 billion. Today, it is US$12 billion, meaning that we have borrowed US$5 billion within the one year that I have been out of the Government. In fact, the people of Zambia deserve to be given a schedule of all the loans that have been contracted by the PF Government and the projects on which the money has been spent because this is getting out of hand.
Madam Chairperson, the Government cannot spend US$7 billion per annum on servicing debts. What debts are these that will cost the people of Zambia so much money? The people of Zambia will not forgive the Government if there will be no drugs in hospitals while it is paying US$7 billion on debts. Additionally, when the hon. Minister winds up this debate, I want him tell us what the contingency fund on payment of loans is for. I do not understand why there should be a contingency fund on a Vote for servicing loans. Is it for transaction costs or what?
Madam, we have not been prudent in the way we have been spending public resources. We are just from talking about the purchase of ambulances and, and I agree with the previous speaker that the hon. Minister of Finance should not allow ministries to enter into contracts when there is no money because the buck stops on him.
Madam Chairperson, I really do not understand what happened because, in 2015, we were in dire straits financially, and I am shamed because, during that time, I toured the country to explain to the people that we had no money, little knowing that, in other Government departments, people were spending US$1 million on one fire tender and US$388,000 on one ambulance. Had I known, I would not have wasted my time defending the situation in which we were then. Some people say that I was part of the Government, but did I know what was being done at the Ministry of Health or Local Government, for instance? When we talk about these things, all we want is prudence in the way we spend public resources. Unfortunately, some people have become professionals in defending wrong things.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kambwili: Every time we talk about something being wrong, their microphones are on.
Laughter
Dr Kambwili: Fortunately, the people are listening and posterity will judge them very harshly for that. There have been many people in the past who did such things and suffered a lot after leaving the Government because what is wrong is wrong and what is right is right. So, sometimes, when we give advice, the best one can do is heed it even if one hates Hon. Dr Chishimba Kambwili. If they want to ridicule him because he has told them the truth, it is up to them. I know the truth hurts, but posterity will be there to judge us harshly. Sometimes, when we are seated here, some people are even guilty and say, “Alanda icishinka, but nalamutukafye because I am a Minister.”
Laughter
Dr Kambwili: I mean, these things …
The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member for Roan!
Please, use the official language. You have just used vernacular terms.
Dr Kambwili: What I was saying is that some people know that what we speak is the truth, but they just decide to ridicule us because they are Ministers and have to defend the Government they serve. I think we should avoid that kind of mentality.
Mr Mutale: By and large!
Laughter
Dr Kambwili: Madam, Bembas say, “Amano mambulwa. Afuma mwifwesa aya muchulu”, meaning wisdom can good advice can be got even from the least expected source. So, one should not disregard advice on account of one’s estimation of the advisor. The advice one rejects might be that which was meant to save one’s life. I remember the story of a bus that was headed for the Eastern Province on a road on which a bridge had collapsed. Near the bridge, a mad man shouted at the driver, warning him about the collapsed bridge, but the people on the bus just laughed and said, “Ishilu ili, moneni!”. The result was that people perished in the accident that followed. So, the Government should take our advice seriously. Zambia’s debt is becoming unsustainable and we should not pretend about it. I am sad to hear the hon. Minister say that we will stop contracting non-concessional loans and concentrate on concessional ones. My advice is that we should stop contracting concessional loans too because we are on the red light already and we will still have to pay back the principal on concessional loans even though they carry zero interest. So, we will still add to the US$7 billion debt.
Madam, I think we need to find ways of raising revenue internally instead of continuing to borrow externally. Otherwise, in the next five years, I foresee a situation in which teachers and other civil servants will go eight months without pay. Already, we now pay civil servants on the 31st of the month, which shows that we are struggling because, previously, we used to pay them on the 18th. Evidently, we are stressed financially. So, the hon. Minister’s idea of continuing with concessional borrowing is not welcome for me. We need apply the brakes on this appetite for borrowing because, at the end of it all, it will be the people of Zambia who will suffer.
Madam Chairperson, let me come to the establishment of a national airline about which the hon. Minister of Transport and Communication informed us. If we are thinking of establishing an airline to be run by the Government with the debt stock we have, we should stop it because the airline business is very difficult. Today, British Airways (BA) and South African Airways (SAA) are posting losses. How can we establish an airline in an economy that spends K7 billion annually on debt servicing? What we should do is just look for a flag carrier, an investor who can run an airline and, maybe, just give the Government 10 or 5 per cent of the profits made for using the country’s image rights. The Government should stay out of running it. Otherwise, the country’s debt will be trebled. Ukwali insoke, takwafwile abantu, meaning when you are forewarned, you are forearmed. So, it is up to my colleagues on your right to get my advice or treat me as the loud mouth as they have always done.
Madam Chairperson, Chinese loans, the ones the hon. Minister is calling concessional loans, do not make sense. I know that when they are contracted, for a road project, for example, the money is not released to the Ministry of Finance here, in Zambia, but administered and paid to a contractor in China. The Chinese even choose the contractor for the project. So, why should we borrow such kind of loans? All we are going to remain with is the infrastructure, but the money will remain in China to develop that country. When we go to China, we will continue saying that country is developed. It is because it is using the money we borrow. As if that was not bad enough, the roads currently being constructed using concessional loans are overpriced. When we spoke about the Ndola/Lusaka Dual Carriageway, we were ridiculed, but what did we hear last week? Somebody announced that the Government had removed all the sundry works from the construction of the road and that only the actual road would be constructed at a reduced rate. Why should our colleagues wait for people to tell them that the road contracts are overpriced? Besides, even when told, they still refuse to acknowledge the fact. However, after sitting down and realising that they have been caught napping, they send a Director in a ministry to announce that all sundries had been removed and the road would be constructed at K1 million per kilometre.
Mr Nkombo: It is still too much!
Dr Kambwili: Yes, it is still too high. It is public knowledge that, in Kenya, 530 km of a dual carriageway will cost, plus or minus, US$620,000.
Mr Nkombo: Only!
Dr Kambwili: For us, however, a 300 km road will cost US$1.2 billion, and the Government wants the people of Zambia to spend K7 billion per annum on servicing the debt. My colleagues can continue ridiculing some of us who are telling them the truth, but for us, it is mafuta, glycerine, and we will just be smearing it on the body. However, a time for reckoning will come for them.
Madam Chairperson, the digital migration project is a scandal. We migrated four districts at US$9 million, yet the remaining six will cost US$273 million. Even a child can see that this is a scandal, and I can tell you that this case will come up once this Government goes out of power. For our friends, the Chinese, who are doing it, they should be prepared because this scandal will never be allowed to rest unless I die.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Kambwili: Madam, I support the hon. Minister, but we should be prudent and stop the financial scandals. Let us lead this country in a way that will enable the people of Zambia, especially the poor, to live better lives.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Minister of Energy (Mr Mabumba): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to support the Vote for Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure.
Madam Chairperson, in supporting this Vote, let me say that, sometimes, we, Zambians, tend to be forgetful. When the Patriotic Front (PF) formed Government, it inherited a huge gap in terms of this country’s infrastructure development ...
Hon. Government Members: Yes!
Mr Mabumba: … and decided to secure finances for infrastructure development projects so as to better the living standard of Zambians. Unfortunately, our domestic Budget was not sufficient to support the infrastructure development programme the Government wanted to implement. Therefore, the Government had to borrow some money. That is what most of the money was borrowed for. The world over, public infrastructure projects are meant to improve public infrastructure and create jobs, and I can cite many roads that have been worked on in this country using the money that was borrowed. We cannot employ all the youths, but we can create labour-intensive industries to narrow the unemployment gap. So, the money that was borrowed by the Government has not gone into people’s pockets.
Madam, if you went to Chipili today, you would find one of the best roads in the country there. The area hon. Member of Parliament can confirm that. The road starts from Mansa, and goes to Chipili and Luwingu. Today, the people of Luapula Province are able to get to the Northern and Muchinga provinces in one day.
Madam, if we want to enhance commerce and trade, we need to improve our roads. Already, the roads on which we have invested our money are promoting commerce and trade. For example, the trucks that used to use the ...
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order, on my left!
Mr Mabumba: … Tanzania/Nakonde/Kasumba Lesa route into the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) now use the Mbala/Kasama/Luwingu/Chipili/Mansa route into the DRC, which has ...
Interruptions
Mr Mabumba: … reduced the transit time for trucks. Therefore, everybody is able to see what the investment in that road has done for this country.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabumba: Madam Chairperson, today, people have talked about the Chingola/Solwezi Road. Look at the investment that has been made in the North-Western Province. Had the PF Government not looked for money, domestically or internationally, to invest in that road, what amount of commerce would we lose due to the deplorable state in which the road was? So, everybody who has eyes can see where the PF Government has taken the money it borrowed.
Madam Chairperson, this country experienced a power deficit in 2015 that affected economic performance simply because it had not been able to attract investment in the energy sector since 1976. Now, if a country is unable to attract investment, the only way to access finances is through borrowing. Is that what the people want to see?
Hon. Government Members: No!
Mr Mabumba: Is that the way to improve the living standard of the people? Today, we are building the 750 MW Kafue Gorge Lower (KGL) Power Plant which, when commissioned, will be able to finance itself by exporting power.
Madam Chairperson, people have talked about the Ndola/Lusaka Dual Carriageway. That road is a commercial one. So, we can borrow money at whatever quantum to build it because we will install toll gates on it and it will be able to pay for itself. That is how we can develop public infrastructure. At the end of the day, the benefits will go to the people of Zambia.
Madam Chairperson, sometimes, when people debate in this Chamber, they create the perception that the money the Government borrows goes into individuals’ pockets. However, the people are able to see that the money goes into many projects, including the revamping of Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL). Had the PF Government not given the ZRL US$120 million from the Euro Bond, the company would have collapsed by now. However, the PF has given the company some vitality. So, let us not create institutional paralysis and dysfunction in this country by creating the perception that the money the Government borrows goes into individuals’ pockets. If there are some individuals who get this money and putting it into their pockets, we have institutions like Auditor-General’s (AG’s) Office and the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to deal with them. Why not report those people so that we do not create institutional paralysis? At the end of the day, if Hon. Dr Chilufya does not buy drugs for our hospitals, it is the Government that will be blamed because the perception that some people in the Government are putting public money into their own pockets has been created.
Madam Chairperson, my appeal to my colleagues is that whenever they have misgivings about the implementation of some projects, they should report to the relevant institutions. The Committee on Energy, Water Development and Tourism can go to the Kafue Gorge Lower (KGL) Power Project to see what the multi-billion-dollar project money we borrowed is being used for and how that will benefit the people of this country.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabumba: Otherwise, if we are not careful, some people here will create the impression that my colleagues here are pocketing the money.
Madam Chairperson, when we realised that our development agenda was very disjointed, we came up with the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP), which anchors all the Government’s programmes, and the hon. Minister of National Development and Planning and the Cabinet must be asked questions by our colleagues on the left on the implementation of priority projects. When a country has priority projects, it is easier for it to borrow and use the borrowed money on those projects. The 7NDP, which has been widely circulated, addresses some of the challenges my colleagues have been raising in this Chamber.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabumba: So, it is not true that the PF Government is not addressing the concerns of our colleagues on the left.
Madam Chairperson, we should ask the hon. Minister of Finance how we can close the gap between public expenditure and domestic resource mobilisation. For example, my colleagues on the left should encourage the hon. Minister of Finance to broaden the scope of domestic resource mobilisation so that the country is able to mobilise sufficient resources domestically. That way, our international debt stock will go down. The central themes of our discourse should be prioritisation of projects and enhancement of domestic resource mobilisation so that we do not have to borrow money.
Madam Chairperson, with those few remarks, I support this Vote.
I thank you, Madam.
Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, let me begin by thanking those who have debated this Vote, namely Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Hon. Dr Kambwili and Hon. Mabumba.
Madam Chairperson, debt is one of the options for financing development, and there is absolutely no country that does not borrow. The important thing is that loans must be directed to projects that will generate growth and the borrowing must be done at a level where the country is able to repay what is borrowed. Our current situation is that we have elevated debt levels. However, we have not defaulted in servicing debt since 1964, and we will not start defaulting now. That is why we are taking measures to slow down the pace at which we accumulate debt, including by shifting to concessional borrowing, which has a grant component to it.
Madam Chairperson, our strategy is to borrow less and depend more on ourselves, meaning that we must depend on our ability to raise resources domestically to finance development projects. That is the answer to debt. Only a country that is able to squeeze itself and sacrifice is able to have a viable solution to debt. In that regard, we have made a number of amendments to our tax laws, notably through the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill and the Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill to increase our capacity to raise domestic revenue, which is important. We are also focused on re-investing in the economy and attracting investment because, unless a country grows its economy through investment, it will not be able to deal with the debt challenge.
Madam Chairperson, this country might have some financial problems, but it is not broke. No wonder, it has not defaulted in debt repayments and has taken steps to ensure that it does not default in the future. For example, we have taken sensible steps to continue ensuring that the public payroll does not exceed 50 per cent of domestic resource in order to create room for development expenditure.
Madam Chairperson, a lot has been said, including on the construction of the dual carriageway and the re-establishment of a national airline. In response, all we can say is that we will not borrow unless it makes financial sense. The hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development has said that the dual carriageway will be built in phases to match our ability to finance the project. In that regard, I want to make it very clear that, in 2018, we will not borrow a single dollar to finance that project. Instead, it will be financed from the domestic resources, just like the Kazungula Bridge. We are exercising prudence.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, the issue of contingency is always raised in the Budget. If you recall, last year, we used the contingency Budget to respond to the deal with army worm infestations. Similarly, this year, we are using it to deal with cholera. So, contingency has nothing to do with debt. It is for financing unforeseen expenditure. We cannot have a Budget without a line for contingency because life is not predictable.
Madam, we are taking steps to ensure that we do not burden future generations with unsustainable debt. However, we also have to unlock our growth potential through infrastructure development. My colleague, Hon. Mabumba, talked about how the Chingola/Solwezi Road would bring development. By constructing that road, we are adding 1 per cent to the country’s gross domestic product (GDP) and increasing the capacity for domestic resource mobilisation. The construction of the Kazungula Bridge and the phased construction of the dual carriageway will also enhance our capacity for domestic resources mobilisation. Therefore, the debate should be that how to unlock the bottlenecks that are slowing down our economy.
Madam Chairperson, I assure my hon. Colleagues that our guiding principles are:
- prudence;
- borrowing only what we can pay back;
- not burdening future generations with debt; and
- remaining sensible and never defaulting.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, before we move to individual items, let us pre-empt what will, obviously, come as a question. Could you explain why Votes 99/02 – Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – Debt Service – Internal and 99/04 – Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – Debt Service – Contingency have no provisions. Although you have explained in part, the Vote also appears under Vote 99/05.
Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, Vote 99/03 has been moved to Unit 2 under Department 1.
The Chairperson: What about Vote 99/02?
Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, Vote 99/02 – Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – Debt Service – Internal has been provided for under Vote 99/01.
I thank you, madam.
Vote 99/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 99/05 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – Other – K1,921,167,550).
Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments under Unit 01:
- Programme 3089, Activity 001 – Contingency – K209,597,580, by the deletion of “K209,597,580” and the substitution therefor of “K178,397,580”;
- by the deletion of Programme Total “K209,597,580” and substitution therefor of “K178,397,580”;
- by the deletion of Unit Total “K1,921,167,550” and the substitution therefor of “K1,889,967,550”; and
- by the deletion of Head Total “K16,162,230,830” and the substitution therefor of “K16,131,030,830”.
Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.
Vote 99/05, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
_______
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
The Estimates of Expenditure (Including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure) for the year 1st January, 2018 to 31st December, 2018, were reported to the House as having passed through the Committee with amendments.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Report adopted and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect to the resolution of the Committee of Supply.
_______
BILL
FIRST READING
THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2017
The following Bill was read the first time:
The Appropriation Bill, 2017
Second Reading, now
SECOND READING
THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2017
Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Mr Speaker, the Bill before this House is the conclusion of the task we started in the Committee of Supply when I presented the 2018 Budget to this august House on Friday, 29th September, 2017.
Sir, I wish to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to you for your timely and wise guidance in the conduct of the Business of this House. Commendations also go to the First Deputy Speaker and the Second Deputy Speaker, who have contributed immensely to the smooth conduct of the Business of the House. I also commend the Leader of Government Business in the House for ensuring that the House was always adequately organised for business. Let me also thank all the hon. Members of Parliament for their valuable contributions and suggestions, which have been duly noted. Whenever possible, my ministry will consider them in future Budgets. My gratitude also goes to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the valuable support they rendered to the House throughout the debate on this Motion. Finally, I thank our co-operating partners for their continued support to the Government.
Sir, as this House finishes its business of approving the 2018 Budget today, one important task that lies ahead of us is the implementation and execution of the Budget in line with its theme. I know that the success of the Budget depends on the realisation of the revenue estimates to fund our expenditure programme. It is with this in mind that my ministry will ensure that revenue is collected to the budgeted levels and distributed to the ministries, provinces and spending agencies expeditiously so that the programmes approved by this House can be implemented. That, however, is not an end in itself, as greater effort must be made to ensure that the ministries, provinces and spending agencies utilise the monies allocated them prudently. My ministry will also continue to implement the structural changes I announced to ensure the proper management and accountability of public resources.
Mr Speaker, may I remind my hon. Colleagues that they have a pivotal role to play in overseeing the implementation of the programmes in the 2018 Budget. I also challenge other stakeholders and individual Zambians to take a keen interest in the public service delivery and development issues of our country. I, therefore, call upon them to partner with the Government in monitoring the service delivery and development programmes in the 2018 Budget.
Lastly, Mr Speaker, once more, I thank my hon. Colleagues for their contributions to the debate on this Budget, which I laid before this House on Friday, 29th September, 2017, and for their support. I am also grateful to your Committee for its thorough report, which brought out a number of issues that have been noted and will be considered by this Government in subsequent Budgets.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.
Committed to the committee of the Whole House.
Committee today
__________
HOUSE IN COMMITTEE
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITEES in the
Chair]
THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2017
Clause 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedules 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Title agreed to.
_________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:
The Appropriation Bill, 2017
Third Reading today.
THIRD READING
The following Bill was read the third time and passed:
The Appropriation Bill, 2017
__________
MOTION
ADJOURNEMENT SINE DIE
The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.
Question put and agreed to.
__________
The House accordingly adjourned sine die on Wednesday, 13th December, 2017, at 1757 hours.
__________