Tuesday, 31^st October, 2017

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

________

 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

 

THE LAUNCH OF THE PUBLIC FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT HANDBOOK

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform you that the National Assembly of Zambia has produced a Public Financial Management Handbook, under the auspices of the European Union (EU) support to the National Assembly of Zambia Project. As Members are aware, the European Union is supporting the strengthening of the National Assembly’s oversight role in Public Financial Management and the Budget. The handbook will principally serve as a toolkit for strengthening of the National Assembly in the performance of its oversight mandate on Public Financial Management, and as a reference and self-training manual for hon. Members of Parliament.

 

Hon. Members, I, therefore, wish to inform you that the Handbook will be launched tomorrow, Wednesday, 1^st November, 2017, at 10:00 Hours in the Amphitheatre, here at Parliament Buildings.

 

All hon. Members are invited to this important launch and are required to be seated by 09:30 hours.

 

Attendance of the launch is on voluntary basis.

 

Thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Membership to the House is also voluntary.

 

Laughter

 

_________

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

CONSTRUCTION OF 1 x 2 AND 1 x 3 CLASSROOM BLOCKS AT SCHOOLS IN LUBANSENSHI CONSTITUENCY

 

74. Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development:

 

1. why the construction of 1 x 2 and 1 x 3 classroom blocks at the following schools in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency, which commenced in 2004, had been abandoned:

 

1. Tolopa;

 

1. Menga;

 

1. Misambula;

 

1. Malekani;

 

1. Mukanga; and

 

1. Chakungubala;

 

1. when construction works would resume; and

 

1. what the time frame for the completion of the works at each school was.

 

The Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development (Mr Chitotela): Mr Speaker, the construction of 1 x 2 and 1 x 3 classroom blocks at Tolopa, Menga, Misambula, Malekani, Mukanga and Chakungubala schools in Lubansenshi Parliamentary Constituency had stalled due to financial constraints.

 

Sir, construction works will resume as soon as funds are made available. They are being provided for in next year’s annual work plan.

 

Sir, the time frame for the completion of the classroom blocks is six months from the date of resumption of works.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mwamba: Mr Speaker, we are talking about structures which the Government fabricated in 2004 and all along, I would assume, money to complete these classroom blocks could have been found. However, the sad part of it is that pupils do not write examinations from three of the schools listed for one simple reason − that a classroom is supposed to have an examination strong room. However, there are no strong rooms at these schools. So, each year, pupils move out as boarders to write examinations from other examination centres.

 

Hon. Member: Question!

 

Mr Mwamba: The question is: Is there any other way that money can be sourced to, at least, complete each classroom for each of these three schools?

 

Mr Chitotela: Thank you, Mr Speaker, we sympathise with the area hon. Member of Parliament and the people of Lubansenshi for the hardship that they have been subjected to. That is why it is important, as local leadership, to take our needs into account as we submit our budgets for consideration.

 

So, this could have been a lapse by our provincial education authority in the Northern Province, which was not considering these schools in the past years that it has submitted projects to be considered for implementation. There is no other method of funding these schools other budgeting for them. However, one other method could be appealing to the conscience of the people of Lubansenshi, through their hon. Member of Parliament, to consider using part of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Perhaps, if hon. Members had considered using the CDF to complete these structures, they could have been completed. Nevertheless, as a concerned Government, we have provided for them in next year’s Budget. All things being equal, when the hon. Minister of Finance releases funds, we intend to give priority to these schools during the first or second quarter of the year so that they can be attended to.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, since 2004 to date is quite a long period of time and it is expected that something should have been done by previous hon. Members of Parliament.

 

Sir, the hon. Minister made reference to the annual work plan, but I need clarification. Is he referring to the annual work plan in the Ministry of General Education or the annual work plan in the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development because sometimes it is posing a challenging to know who should be approached when it comes to such things?

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, in November, last year, this Parliament approved the creation of the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development, proposed by His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu. Therefore, education infrastructure is part of the infrastructure under ambit of the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure, in accordance with the approval that was granted by this Parliament. Maybe, previously, education infrastructure could have been under the Ministry of Education, but things changed after the approval.

 

Sir, last year, a transitional period was allowed so that the operations of the Government could not grind to a halt. However, the hon. Member ought to know that the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development is in charge of public infrastructure, and legally so by the Gazette Notice of 16^th November, 2016, that was issued by the Cabinet. The mandate of public infrastructure was moved from various ministries to this ministry.

 

Mr Speaker, we are in the transitional period and nature being as it is, people may want to delay change. However once an idea is conceived, it has to come to pass because the legal mandate has moved.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

__________

 

BILLS

 

REPORT STAGE

 

THE COMPANIES BILL, 2017

 

The Companies Bill, 2017.

 

Report adopted.

 

Third Reading on Wednesday, 1^st November, 2017.

 

THIRD READING

 

THE CORPORATE INSOLVENCY BILL, 2017

 

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

 

The Corporate Insolvency Bill, 2017.

 

__________

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE) FOR THE YEAR 1^ST JANUARY, 2018 TO 31^ST DECEMBER, 2018

 

VOTE 04 – (Ministry of Gender – K64, 117,950).

 

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mrs Simukoko) (on behalf of the Minister of Gender (Ms Kalima): Madam Chairperson, my ministry supported inclusion of gender aspects in the draft Land Policy. This was done by ensuring the provisions on land, as contained in the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women, the African Union (AU) Charter, the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Gender and Development as well as the National Gender Policy were incorporated. Once finalised, the ministry will look forward to its implementation in realising equal access to land by women and men.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, a total number of 106 women was adopted as Parliamentary candidates by eleven political parties, representing 6.3 per cent of the total 615 candidates. The proportion of women in Parliament increased from 12.6 per cent in 2015 to 18.1 per cent in 2017. There has also been a slight increase in the proportion of women elected as councillors from 6.5 per cent in 2011 to 10 per cent in 2016. Further, 8.7 per cent women were elected as mayors and council chairpersons.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to accelerate women participation in leadership, my ministry commenced consultations with key stakeholders that included the Zambia Law Development Commission, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) as well as political parties, including civil society organisations. The consultations were done to review the electoral code for gender responsiveness so that appropriate amendments are incorporated to encourage women participation in elective positions. This process is currently underway and the ministry is optimistic that the outcome of the document’s review will make changes to the Electoral Code that will enhance female participation.

 

Madam Chairperson, as the House may be aware, the ministry is co-ordinating the implementation of the Girls Education and Women Empowerment and Livelihoods (GEWEL) Project. The implementing ministries are the Ministry of General Education and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

 

Madam, the GEWEL Project aims at empowering 75,000 women through mentorship-based productive grants in fifty-one districts. So far, identification of 11,983 women in the eleven districts of Phase I is underway. The women will receive productive grants and entrepreneurship training in these districts. For the girls’ component, 8,669 of the targeted 14,000 girls have been supported with secondary school fees in sixteen districts. The ministry is optimistic that the target of 14,000 will be achieved by December, 2017.

 

Major Challenges Faced in the Year 2017

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Gender remains optimistic that in 2017, Treasury authority will be secured to avert the acute shortage of staff in the ministry, which has compromised efficient delivery of services, especially in remote places of Zambia where the majority of the women and girls reside.

 

Policy Outlook for the Year 2018

 

Madam Chairperson, gender-based violence (GBV) cases remain high in Zambia with a new phenomenon where the country is witnessing an increase in the number of women perpetrating the act. In 2018, the Ministry of Gender will focus on strengthening the legal framework by ensuring that perpetrators are handed with stiffer punishment and the victims supported and protected from such barbaric acts of inhuman behaviour.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is worth noting that two GBV fast-track courts, which were established in Lusaka and Kabwe, have significantly enhanced the efficiency with which GBV cases are handled by the courts. I am glad to inform the House that on average, fast-track courts are disposing of GBV cases within thirty days, which is a significant improvement in ensuring that justice is delivered timely. To augment the progress made in the efficient disposal of cases, an extra four fast-track courts on GBV will be established in Ndola, Chipata, Choma and Mongu. The courts will be extended to all the provincial cities by 2020.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Gender notes, with sadness, the continued high cases of child marriages in Zambia. On average, two out of five girls are married before their eighteenth birthday. This phenomenon is actually worse in the rural parts of Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry, during the 2018 Fiscal Year, will seek to strengthen multi-sectoral collaborations to mobilise resources to fully implement the national plan of action on ending child marriage. The plan has been finalised and will be launched later in 2017. The plan seeks to implement policy and legal measures that will prevent child marriage and provide support services to children in line with the 2016/2021 National Strategy on Ending Child Marriage in Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry will continue to facilitate trainings for 2018, focusing on gender mainstreaming, gender responsive, planning and budgeting, including awareness creation on gender equity and equality. This measure will ensure that knowledge and skill for gender mainstreaming and empowerment of women are institutionalised to support inclusive and sustainable development in all sectors.

 

Madam Chairperson, in terms of economic empowerment of women in line with the National Diversification Agenda, the ministry will continue to implement agricultural development through value chain enhancement by increasing coverage of women cooperatives from 100 chiefdoms with an addition of fifty chiefdoms. Further, the ministry will focus on strengthening coalitions for enhanced partnerships with the local communities, the private sector, civil society organisations and non-governmental organisations (NGOs) to ensure provision of services such as affordable financial resources, agro-inputs, access to markets, entrepreneurship and technical skills for value addition among women co-operatives.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Gender remains committed to executing its mandate and will accelerate implementation of the outlined priority programmes to advance the calls for gender equity and equality in the county. I must state that to enable the ministry operationalise the aforementioned policy measures, the Ministry of Gender will work closely with all the co-operating partners who have been so supportive to the ministry during 2017.

 

Madam, I, therefore, wish to urge the hon. Members of this august House to support the Estimates of Expenditure for Head 04 – Ministry of Gender, which has been allocated a total of K64,117,950 for 2018 from an amount of K63,979,484 allocated in  2017. May God bless the women, men, girls and boys of the Republic of Zambia.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Chairperson, I rise to support the Budget. In doing so, I would like to make a few comments, which I hope the hon. Minister of Gender will take very seriously.

 

Madam Chairperson, the time has come to seriously address our concern for gender in development. All along, since this particular department became a directorate in Cabinet Office and subsequently, as a stand-alone ministry, there has been a challenge of how this ministry should address the whole challenge of gender in development. We have not been very serious and I think it is it now time to be serious. The Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) have given us a direction of how to address gender in development over the next thirteen years up to 2030.

 

Madam Chairperson, countries that subscribe to SDGs should adopt and strengthen sound policies and enforceable legislation for the promotion of gender equality and the empowerment of all women and girls at all levels. I think that is the bottom line. The empowerment of all women and girls at all levels calls for serious attention to investment in women and girls. How much have we done, as a country, to promote investment in women and girls? I think we have done very little, yet women and girls are the determinants of productivity in our economy. They are the traders, marketeers and farmers. The majority of our small-scale farmers are, indeed, the women, especially in our country side.

 

Madam Chairperson, women and girls contribute significantly to sustainable social and economic development. They are key determinants to political sustainability and stability. Most of us here are in this House because the majority of the voters are women.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, when we organise meetings in our respective constituencies, the people who come first are women. They take their seats with children and listen to us patiently. They do that because they expect us to seriously address their well-being. Women are key determinants of human resource development. It is, therefore, time for us to seriously address the challenge of harnessing the demographic dividend of investing in our women and girls, which we have not done seriously as a country. It is now time to look at the available statistics and see how many women and girls are entering our skills training institutions and what kind of skills our women and girls are getting, how many are able to acquire the necessary skills which can enable them to live productively in various sectors of our economy.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is now time to look at the process of access to capital and see how many women and girls are accessing opportunities for business. It is time to look at how far women are participating in various development projects. For example, in infrastructure development, how many women are actually constructing our roads, health centres, bridges and schools? Where are the companies for women? We do not know that. The question is why?

 

Madam, when you go to other countries, you will find that women are on the roads constructing roads, constructing schools and bridges through their companies. What have we done here in our country? We have done almost nothing. I know that there is a company owned by a lady in my constituency. Her company has been constructing culverts. Culverts constructed by this company are of very high standard. What have we done, as a country, to provide opportunities that can actually assist our women and girls to be in the front line of development? This is the challenge that we have to address over the next thirteen years as we attempt to fulfil the SDGs. Are we creating opportunities through various institutions and legal frameworks to bring women to the front line of development, to create positive discrimination in various development activities in favour of women and to various preconceived subjectivity, whether these are brought about by patriarchical structures, cultural biases and other discriminatory preconceptions? These factors have to be addressed. We have to critically address the whole issue of inclusiveness. What exactly do we mean by inclusiveness? What exactly do we mean by a development pattern that leaves no one behind? Laws have to change. There are certain issues which affect women in our development process that we have not paid serious attention to and we have to confront these processes to see which laws are discriminatory and then enter into a new debate of inclusiveness.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am not mentioning it, but I think the implication is very obvious. There are those issues which we may not be paying attention to, but which we have to seriously begin to reflect on and see how far our understanding and commitment to inclusiveness will go. This has to been done over the next thirteen years before 2030. How do we do it is the question which begs an answer, but it has to be done for this is expected of us by the international community. So, the challenge or the bottom line is that we have to seriously address the whole issue of investment in our women and our girls.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Gender is the co-ordinating ministry. It is the ministry that should alert the Ministry of Higher Education on how well our girls are accessing various educational opportunities equitably and how well they are performing at different values of our educational sector. The Ministry of Gender is supposed to alert the Ministry of Agriculture on how well the productivity level of our women is and how profitable that productivity is for the nation. Where are the statistics? Can we see the statistics of how many women are accessing the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) facilities? How well are the women doing in mining? Yes, we have a programme called Women in Mining, but how well are they doing? What is their comparative level? Are we seeing the minerals women are extracting out of the soil being sold internationally? We need to see the figures. We need to see how well women are accessing various other opportunities and programmes. So, the Ministry of Gender should come up with a very strong research programme. I do not think that we have such a research programme in the ministry which can give us the necessary data for us to be able to monitor and effectively evaluate the position of women in various development undertakings.

 

Madam Chairperson, I think it is time for this ministry to take its rightful position because it is an extremely important ministry as far as the whole challenge of empowering women and girls is concerned. This should be given the utmost seriousness it deserves. We should not pay lip service to the importance of this ministry like we have done ever since it emerged from being a directorate to a fully-fledged ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the budget for the Ministry of Gender. As I rise to debate, I would like to augment the submissions that have been made by Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa and take his sentiments as my own.

 

Madam Chairperson, I will try to make my submission very brief. I would like to dwell on the issues that have been abandoned by the Patriotic Front (PF) Government pertaining to the welfare of the women in our constituencies. It is right to state that those of us who were in the House during the reign of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) witnessed a lot of developments pertaining to the welfare of women in our constituencies. I am aware that during the MMD period, there was transparency in the distribution of resources to all the constituencies in the country …

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … and all of us, without exception, were given hammer mills to distribute to the women clubs in our constituencies. We were also given oil extraction and sewing machines, scotch carts and other implements for the benefit of the women. However, from the time the PF came into power, none of these good activities in the constituencies have been enhanced, unless I stand to be contradicted and be told that other constituencies have received.

 

Madam Chairperson, as far as I am concerned, these intervention measures that were undertaken by the MMD assisted in alleviating the poverty levels of the women. The women in our constituencies appreciated and they have been asking us, as hon. Members of Parliament, to appeal to our colleagues and in particular the hon. Minister of Gender to replicate the good measures that were undertaken by the MMD Government.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, it does not auger well to ignore and abandon the good things that were done by the MMD Government.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: They were done for the benefit of everybody …

 

Mr Muchima: Indeed!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … and during that period, there was no discrimination of whether it was a United Party for National Development (UPND), PF or MMD-led constituency.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: We got all the items that were available equitably and a list of the things that were to be distributed would be laid on the Table of the House.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, therefore, we expect the hon. Minister to equitably distribute the items.

 

Mr Muchima: Hanjika!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we are representatives of our mothers. I do not think there is anyone who would want to discriminate against his or her mother. The women are our mothers and they are so dear to us and we should not discriminate against them. The hon. Minister of Gender should ensure that those good programmes that were started by the MMD Government are continued for the benefit of the women in our constituencies.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I also heard the complaints and lamentations of my colleague, the hon. Minister of Gender, pertaining to the low levels of participation in politics by the women in this country. I agree that these levels are rife, but we have to look at the causes. We are all aware that violence in the political arena has reached unprecedented levels.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: The women are decent and they cannot be involved in politics because of violence. It is incumbent upon our colleagues in the Ruling Party to ensure that violence is abated. There is no way any decent woman or lady will engage herself in politics when there is violence. The women have to consider their families first and because of violence, a number of them would not want to be involved in politics. Therefore, it is our responsibility to ensure that there is no violence in the political area.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: If we do not do that, the number of women parliamentarians will continue being low.

 

Madam Chairperson, the second factor women do not participate in politics is the high cost of running a campaign. A number of women in this country cannot afford the high expenses of running a campaign during an election in this country. As a result of this, a number of them cannot compete against the men. I was under the impression that the hon. Minister of Gender would come up with positive discrimination in favour of women. We are aware that in certain jurisdictions, women have been discriminated positively. For example, in Rwanda, Uganda and Kenya, the number of women in Parliament has gone up because of certain measures that have been put in place by their governments.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: However, the women in this House remain mute because they think that they have arrived and forget their colleagues out there.

 

Ms Mulenga: Question!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I am aware that even the hon. Member for Kalulushi would not want a woman to contest and win.

 

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I would like Her Honour the Vice-President to hear me very clearly because we have had discussions pertaining to the issues of women and we had intended to take certain measures at a certain time. In Uganda, Rwanda and Kenya, some constituencies are reserved specifically for women and are not contested by men. By doing that, they are sure that in that particular constituency only a woman will be a Member of Parliament. There are seats in a district that are reserved for women and they are sure that the number of women will rise because of that. That is why in those countries, there are more women in Parliament than men because of those good measures they have put in place.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, however, here we are shy to implement those good measures. If we do not implement them, and as I indicated earlier due to violence and financial constraints, we will continue having very few women in this House.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have no doubt in my mind that Her Honour the Vice-President and the hon. Minister of Gender have both heard what I have said. They have to take positive measures pertaining to this very serious issue, which is non contentious. If we do not do that, we will continue lamenting the low number of women in the House.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other contributing factor is the issue of corruption. It is an established fact that the male folk are said to be the most corrupt, and ...

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: You may continue, hon. Member.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that because of high levels of corruption in the country, and that most of the people involved in corruption are male folk, the women are left behind because they shudder at the thought of being involved in corruption, hence their non-involvement in politics. I hope that the hon. Minister of Gender, in consultation with Her Honour the Vice-President, will address these issues so that we raise the number of women in Parliament.

 

With those few remarks, I support the Motion.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for that statement and, indeed, the hon. Members who have spoken before me.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Gender is a lead ministry on gender-based violence (GBV). Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa has well-articulated the aspect of education well and indeed the inclusion that the hon. Leader of the Opposition has just talked about.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Gender should lead this nation and, indeed, the Government’s efforts in ensuring that it sets the agenda for the Zambian girl and woman to realise her full potential. To ensure that this is achieved, the human resource within the Government, the private sector as well as the civil society should be marshalled so that we are able to have an outcome that we so desire. That desire is to see Zambian women and girls protected against GBV and for them to aspire for leadership. It is to break that glass ceiling that has held back the women and girls on the globe.

 

Madam Chairperson, in supporting the Budget, the Ministry of Gender should be the steward and the provider in teacher leadership in making sure that GBV is defeated. Apart from that, the ministry should be in the forefront of ensuring that it is a designer of robust action to ensure that the girl child and the women in Zambia contribute positively to the development of this country.

 

Madam Chairperson a Roman woman and man once walked this earth. Roman citizens were once respected and feared. Not too long ago, the late President Kamuzu Banda lived on our Eastern front, and the women in Malawi were feared and respected. They were feared in the sense that their rights would not be violated. I, therefore, want to thank the Patriotic Front (PF) Government for ensuring that women are given that standing that we so desire. For the first time, ...

 

Ms Lubezhi laughed.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, I thank the female hon. Member who is laughing. I am sure that she agrees with me that for the first time in this country, we have a female Vice-President.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, when I was appointed Inspector-General of Police, I was a witness to the fact that when we elevated Commissioners to head provinces, we ensured that five men and five women were appointed to head the provinces. This was the first time this was happening, and it all happened under the PF Government. I hope that this legacy that has been entrenched by the PF Government will continue. Women should be given more deserving positions. I agree with the hon. Member who spoke before me and said that women serve very well when given responsibilities.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the Ministry of Home Affairs. As the hon. Minister leads this effort alongside her colleague in the Ministry of Home Affairs, I hope that the Ministry of Gender will provide that designer leadership and ensure that the forensic service is established. Today, cases of women who are raped and girls who are defiled do not go far due to a lack of evidence. Even when the case goes to court, it does not materialise. The designer leadership that I expect from the Ministry of Gender is to ensure that women are protected everywhere, including in Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency and as far as Muwele. After a man has fished, sold the fish and taken some alcohol from the money realised should not abuse his wife. In case that happens, the women should have easy access to a police station. When sent to a health centre, women should be able to access the service required unlike what is currently prevailing in Chief Kabinga’s Chiefdom where women have to walk a distance of about 100 km from Chinkobo to Mpika.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear! Ema places aya.

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, how do you expect a child who has been married off at sixteen years to walk that distance?

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to urge the hon. Minister of Gender to remind her colleague in the Ministry of Justice, as she interacts with him, on the need for local courts. The local courts are deterrents to bad vices. They uphold cultural values amongst the people in a given community. The magistrates’ courts are equally important in nearby vicinities. Despite Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency being large as Israel, the entire constituency has no local court, in fact, this is the case in Lavushi Manda District. Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency has five chiefdoms with no local court. However, I think that it is not the only constituency with that problem. There are many more constituencies, especially the rural ones, with this problem. There is a need to establish local courts in these areas.

 

Madam Chairperson, ...

 

Mr Ngulube: I thank you.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency thanks the Chairperson. Again, I thank the PF Government and, indeed, the hon. Members for ensuring that the First Deputy Speaker is a female. I truly thank my neighbour for thanking the Chairperson.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear! Ema neighbours aya!

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about education. The levels of illiteracy in our country are high. I believe that when we work with the Ministry of General Education in ensuring that the schools that are incomplete, such as Kopa Secondary School, which have been under construction for some time in Luchembe and Mpepo, they will be completed. The men and women are complaining and asking about when these schools will be completed so that the girl child can go there. This is how we will beat illiteracy. Our children will be empowered. They will not be married off because of not doing anything. Instead, they will be kept in school so that they can be productive.

 

Madam Chairperson, if this is done, the Ministry of Gender will be capacitated to, first and foremost, provide inspiration when it sees that there is no inertia in providing the required services.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Health will provide primary health care near communities. As the hon. Minister of Health is always saying, there will be a healthcare post every 5 km. There should be no inertia in ensuring that established communities have health centres nearby, unlike in places like Chinkobo, Munkuta and Muwele where health centres have not yet been built.

 

Madam Chairperson, around 2300 hours last night, I received a phone call from a man I will not name. The man was crying while asking why there are only trenches where health centres and schools are supposed to be built. He threatened to do something to himself, but I told him not to because the Patriotic Front (PF) Government would deliver.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: The PF Government will deliver.

 

So, for this inertia to be done away with, the Ministry of Gender should be in the forefront of ensuring that education, health, justice and protection is provided for our people. Apart from providing inspiration, the ministry should ensure that structures and leadership are provided on the ground.

 

I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central for thanking you, Madam Chairperson.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Ngulube interjected.

 

Ms Katuta: Yeah.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to add the voice of the people of Chienge to this debate. Firstly, I would like to remind the hon. Minister of the importance of this ministry. As Hon. Mwiimbu and other speakers before me indicated, the Ministry of Gender was created to support women even though it says ‘gender’. So, I will take it that gender is meant for female.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Katuta: Madam Chairperson, we have heard how this ministry would like to empower the women of this country, who are the majority. The majority of people in markets are women. Majority voters are women. In rural areas, women are the most hardworking. The Ministry of Gender needs to be supported properly by this Government. It needs to be allocated more than the K64 million allocated for 2018. 

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Gender once announced that, working in collaboration with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Finance, a women’s bank would be created. Many women in Tanzania and other countries have benefited from such a bank. In Zambia, however, I am yet to hear of women benefitting from such a bank. Women out there are waiting for the implementation of this bank. The creation of this bank to empower women entrepreneurs would be done better if it was done in collaboration with the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC).

 

Madam Chairperson, for a woman to access a loan from the CEEC, at the moment, is very difficult because most women are not into hustling, for lack of a better term, in order to get money from the fund. So, I would like to urge the Ministry of Finance to seriously look into this matter because this is a very important ministry.

 

Madam, I have noticed that this ministry has not been given much support. If it can be given more money and more support, it can deliver and add to our gross domestic product (GDP). The Government could, perhaps, consider working with banks such as the Standard Chartered Bank which once started the Diva Account. Had the Government stepped in to boost that programme by giving out a lot of information to young energetic women, many of them would have applied for these loans and been empowered and engaged in farming, which I am passionate about, or do other businesses which would have been profitable.

 

Madam, sometimes, I find it meaningless to give women sewing machines when they have not been given adequate training. It would be better for this ministry to also look at establishing welfare centres, as in the past, where our mothers were trained to bake, sew and knit. If this is done, it would be a very useful ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have concerns from Chienge about tractors and land tillers which have been distributed. However, before I raise this concern, I would like to thank the Government for the tractors that were given to Chienge. These tractors and land tillers have not been given to women’s clubs. Instead, they have been delivered to palaces. I am yet to find out whether the Ministry of Gender has followed up to see to it that intended women-recipients of these tractors and tillers use them. Some of these tractors and land tillers are still parked at palaces, yet this is farming season. Women’s clubs have not been given any training on how to use these tractors or land tillers.

 

Madam Chairperson, reserving special seats for women in Parliament is a very good idea. However, I believe that it would only be fair if political parties have rules to reserve a certain percentage of seats for women. Special seats can lead to Members of Parliament who will just be there because they have been given special seats. Being a Member of Parliament should be a passion and not an appointment. So, I would urge this ministry to look into this matter and bring it back to this House that these political parties should be given a percentage of seats to female Members of Parliament to be fielded during campaigns. 

 

With these few words from Chienge, I would like to say that the Ministry of Gender should be supported and given more money than what it has been given.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I would like that thank all those who have commented on this Vote.

 

Madam, just to comment on the few hon. Members, who have debated on this vote, Hon. Dr Malama mentioned something about support to women. I would like to express gratitude to Hon. Dr Malama for his support to women. I hear that he has been a champion for the cause of women and girls’ affairs. Therefore, I would like to show great appreciation for that.

 

Madam Chairperson, on the issues of the forensic laboratory, I would like to state that this laboratory was established at the Lusaka Central Police with the support of the United Nations Development Plan (UNDP), but the challenge that we have had is that of insufficient funds for testing. Otherwise, we are happy that the laboratory has been established.

 

Madam, as a ministry, we will introduce a quota system in politics, which is already under consideration as we review the Electoral Act. On the issue of encouraging women to participate in leadership and politics, we are also doing everything possible to ensure that we revise the Electoral Code to put it in gear and be sensitive to encourage women so that they can participate in elections.

 

Madam, on the concerns that were raised by Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, the ministry has been implementing the Gender Equity and Equality Act. In 2018, the ministry plans to facilitate the formulation of gender responsive planning and budgeting, which is one way of demonstrating Zambia’s commitment to international agreements on gender.

 

Madam, on statistics, the ministry produces a bi-annual report. The recent report is for 2015/16 National Agenda Status Report. I hope most hon. Members will be interested in reading the reports.

 

Madam, in commenting on Hon. Mwiimbu’s contributions, I would like to inform the hon. Member that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has continued to provide equipment for women. The Government is providing high cost productive items, such as, tractors and sewing machines. The PF is the only party that is serious about empowering women. I would, therefore, like to assure the hon. Member that his constituency will be taken care of if it has not yet been provided with the machines. We do not believe in discrimination.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam, we supported multi-partism. Therefore, we respect people’s votes. For that reason, I would like to assure the hon. Member that the Ministry of Gender will look into the matter of his constituency to ascertain if at all he has not already received the equipment.

 

Madam, to date, 100 chiefdoms have been empowered with tractors or similar equipment. We expect to tackle the fifteen chiefdoms with the same benefits by the end of 2017. This is ongoing and those who may not have received should not feel left out because we will reach them.

 

Madam Chairperson, on the violence against women during elections, all of us should fight against this. We need to support women because they are our mothers. If we do not have respect for them, it means we do not have respect for our mothers. If we ill-treat a woman, it means we are ill-treating our mothers. As some hon. Members have said, we will definitely continue supporting each other.

 

Madam, the ministry has heard all the concerns that have been brought before the House. I want to assure all hon. Members that we will work on some of the issues that hon. Members have raised. I also know that women have done so well in terms of power acquisition.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to state that there is already a debate in the United States of America (USA) on gender harassment at places of work. Therefore, it is not different from what is happening in Zambia because we are also going through the same violence against women. So, we need to show interest in what is happening in other countries to ensure that women participate in politics without being discriminated against.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 04/01 – (Ministry of Gender – Human Resource and Administration Department – K6,640,230).

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo):  Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5002, Activity 005 – World Aids Day – Nil, Activity 007 – Labour Day Celebration – K40,000, Activity 022 – Public Service Day – Nil, Activity 062 – Youth Day – Nil and Activity 112 – Secretary’s Day  – Nil.

 

Madam, I can only see a K40,000 under Activity 007 – Labour Day Celebration. I do not know maybe, it is because the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security was the one representing the Ministry Gender. However, I would like to find out why all the activities under that programme have no allocations and, where they have been budgeted for. Have they completely been omitted as a cost saving measure or they have been placed under other headings.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5002, Activity 007 – Labour Day Celebration – K40,000 is required to facilitate the participation of the Ministry of Gender in observing the Labour Day Celebration. Activity 022 – Public Service Day – Nil, the cost for this event will be catered for under Programme 5001, Activity 165 – Public Function and Administration – K20,130.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Could the hon. Minister elaborate on Programme 5002, Activity 005 – World Aids Day – Nil, Activity 062 – Youth Day – Nil, Activity 112 – Secretary’s Day − Nil.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5002, Activity 062 – Youth Day – Nil, will be catered for under Programme 5001, Activity 164 – Backstopping By Permanent Secretary – K133,000.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Lufuma:  Madam, I do not have another question, but I suppose the answer is inadequate. The hon. Minister has not been able to elaborate in accordance with the question I posed. Could she endeavour to do so.

 

The Chairperson: With which particular activities are you not satisfied?

 

Mr Lufuma: The rest of the activities that I cited.

 

Madam Chairperson: Would the hon. Minister like to repeat the explanation for the other activities that do not have an allocation.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam, Programme 5002, Activity 005 – World Aids Day – Nil will be catered for under Vote 04/05,  Programme 3191, Activity 005 – Commemoration of Sixteen Days of Gender Activism – K112,000. Activity 022 – Public Service Day – Nil, will be catered for under Programme 5001, Activity 165 – Public Function and Administration – K20,130. Activity 062 – Youth Day – Nil, will be catered for under Programme 5001, Activity 164 – Backstopping By Permanent Secretary – K133,000. Activity 112 – Secretary’s Day – Nil, will be catered from Programme 5001, Activity 164 – Backstopping By Permanent Secretary – K133,000.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you,

 

Vote 04/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Votes 04/02, 04/03, 04/05 and 04/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 07 – (Office of the Auditor-General – K93,729,050).

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General for 2018. As a reminder, I wish to state that the Office of the Auditor-General is a public office established under the Republican Constitution. The office is charged with the responsibility of providing auditing services to public and other institutions that receive Government subventions. The Office of the Auditor-General’s functions are derived from Article 250 of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, Public Audit Act No. 13 of 1994 and Public Finance Act No. 15 of 2004.

 

Madam Chairperson, as you may know, the office plays a key role in promoting good governance, accountability and transparency in the raising and utilisation of public resources. The office, therefore, is under the fifth pillar of the Seventh National Development Plan (7^thNDP), creating a conducive governance environment for a diversified economy.

 

Madam Chairperson, may I take this opportunity to inform this august House that the Office of the Auditor-General has just completed developing its strategic plan for the period 2017 to 2021. Through this plan, the office will introduce new audit programmes to help the Government measure progress being made towards the achievement of the development outcomes as envisaged in the 7^thNDP. As such, my Government will work closely with the Auditor-General to ensure remedial action is taken on all observations made in the audit reports. The Government will further ensure that all public resources are applied on the intended purposes for the benefit of the citizenry.

 

Madam Chairperson, with the changes made in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016, the Office of the Auditor-General has now been given the extended mandate to audit local authorities in line with the Decentralisation Policy. Let me hasten to state that in 2016, the office reviewed the operations of eighteen councils and produced a separate report on local authorities for the first time. The report revealed various weaknesses, such as liquidity problems, inappropriate reporting framework, high vacancy rate and low qualification of accounting staff in councils, among others. It is, however, envisaged that the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) and Treasury will address these weaknesses through the Decentralisation Programme.

 

Madam, in 2018, the Government is committed to enhancing and strengthening the capacity of the Office of the Auditor-General. In this regard, the Government is unfreezing thirty-nine positions. In addition, the overall structure of the office will be reviewed in view of the new strategic plan and the added mandate of the auditing of the local authorities.

 

Madam Chairperson, the total 2018 budget for the office is K93,729,050, of which K52.5 million is personnel related and K40.9 million is for recurrent departmental charges. A total of K22 million has been provided for audit activities out of the total recurrent departmental charges’ budget. The expected outputs are the production of the following:

 

1. report of the main accounts of the Republic;

 

1. report on parastatal bodies and other statutory institutions;

 

1. report on local authorities;

 

1. reports on performance (value for money) audits on selected thematic areas; and

 

1. special reports, as may be requested by the Executive and other stakeholders.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to achieve the above outputs, the office will increase its audit coverage and maximise the monitoring of the usage of public resources. In addition, the 2018 budget includes a provision of K3.9 million for purposes of planning for audits, quality assurance and monitoring and evaluation. Under this provision, the office will be able to ensure that its activities are aligned to Government programmes and contribute towards the achievement of development outcomes, as indicated in the 7NDP.

 

Madam Chairperson, a provision of K2.8 million has been made for the rehabilitation and insurance of office buildings. This is to ensure that there is a clean and secure working environment as well as averting any loss should any fire or natural calamity befall us, such as we have seen in the recent past.

 

Madam Chairperson, in line with the Government’s drive for a smart Zambia, a provision of K1.1 million has been included for the implementation of information communication technology (ICT) development and support activities. A provision of K2.2 million has been made for dismantling arrears related to personal emoluments, goods and services and infrastructure development. This is in line with the Government’s priority to liquidate arrears for economic stability and growth programmes.

 

Madam Chairperson, other expenses provided for in the Budget include, administrative costs such as repair of vehicles and maintenance of buildings, among others. In this regard, a total budget of K6.1 million has been made to meet these expenses. Most of the office work involves travelling and as such, it is critical to ensure that vehicles and other tools are in good working condition.

 

Madam Chairperson, in implementing all these programmes, the office requires a knowledgeable and skilled human resource. Therefore, a total of K1.5 million has been provided for capacity building programmes in the 2018 Budget. With an ever evolving environment, and the changing dynamics of auditing, auditors require continuous professional development to keep abreast of the changing standards.

 

Madam Chairperson, lastly, a total of K52.5 million has been provided for the payment of personnel related expenses such as salaries and housing, transport and fuel allowances. 

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to emphasise that the Auditor-General’s Office is in the fifth pillar 7NDP, under Development Outcome No. 2 “Improved Transparency and Accountability” and is, therefore, responsible for ensuring accountability and transparency in the use of public funds from taxes and donors. I, therefore, beg this House to pass the 2018 Budget of K93,729,050, for the Office of the Auditor-General.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mukosa (Chinsali): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity ...

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: Please, sit down, hon. Member. I should have probably said this at the beginning.

 

Madam, we have a lot of business to transact and as you know, we cannot go beyond a certain point in the year. December is just around the corner, in fact. We have the whole Budget to deal with. If we will interrupt proceedings with points of order unnecessarily, I am afraid we will not finish the business that we have before us. For that reason, I would like to make it very clear that unless it is extremely urgent, for instance, there is fire outside, ...

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: ... that kind of point of order, I will allow. Otherwise, hon. Members, I will be very reluctant to allow points of order.

 

With that guidance, is your point of order compelling?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes!

 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a very important and urgent point of order.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the last three days, in the Republic of South Africa, messages have been circulating on social media and other means ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Were you there?

 

The Chairperson: Allow him to make his point.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I wish my colleague can hear what I want to say.

 

The Chairperson: Please, continue.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that in the last three days or so, messages on social media have been circulating in the Republic of South Africa, urging South Africans to rise against foreign nationals, who have taken their jobs and livelihoods, and to harm them. 

 

Madam, the issue I am raising is so urgent. I want to hear what the Government of the Republic of Zambia is doing to protect its nationals in South Africa, taking into account that the measures to attack foreigners are supposed to take effect on 2^nd November, 2017.

 

Madam Chairperson, our people who are living in South Africa have been ringing some of us, expressing concern pertaining to the happenings there. We are all aware that there has been xenophobia in the Republic of South Africa ...

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the point of order I am raising is on why the Government has remained quiet without advising Zambians to take precautionary measures in the Republic of South Africa, taking into account what is happening there.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: My ruling, hon. Members, is that I do not think that any self-respecting government can run its affairs based on information on social media.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: Further, Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you are aware that the Zambian Government is represented in South Africa through a mission. If, indeed, Zambian nationals in South Africa feel that they are facing danger of any kind, it is only prudent that they report that to the mission in South Africa.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: I have difficulty with this, Hon. Leader of the Opposition, because the basis of your point of order is information that is circulating on social media, and no other source. As we all know, in today’s world, there is a lot that is circulating on social media.

 

If you do have Zambian nationals in South Africa who are contacting you expressing their fears, please, advise them to report to the mission, which I believe is in Pretoria.

 

With that said, I would like to have this segment of the business uninterrupted.

 

Mr Mukosa, hon. Member for Chinsali Constituency, will continue with his debate.

 

Mr Mukosa: Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice in support of the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General.

 

Madam, the Office of the Auditor-General is very important and any person should not question that. Sufficient funding should be given to this very important institution because it is through the normal audits that it undertakes that we get to ensure that the assets of the Government are safeguarded.

 

Madam Chairperson, as Her Honour the Vice-President has rightly put it, the Office of the Auditor-General has been given a new mandate in the amended Constitution to audit over 100 local councils that we have. This is a very big task. However, as I looked through the Yellow Book, I struggled to see the moneys that have been allocated to support this task of auditing the councils, but I did not see it. For this reason, I would advise that if this has not been provided for, then, due consideration be given so that this office can be given sufficient resources to undertake this important task.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other issue I would like to talk about is on the Office of the Auditor-General getting funding from co-operating partners. In the previous years, from 2012 to 2016, the Office of the Auditor-General has been receiving funds from co-operating partner based on the strategic plan from 2011 to 2016. However, this money was not received this year, 2017, because the strategic plan had expired.

 

However, Madam, I am happy to hear that a new strategic plan has been prepared for the period 2017 to 2021. Nonetheless, my worry is about this coming year, 2018. Since we did not receive this money that we had been receiving for this institution from the co-operating partners in 2017, there is a chance that we may not receive this money next year as well. So, if this office is not given sufficient resources by this Government, it will be very difficult for it to undertake audits for special projects like auditing the e-voucher scheme and other projects that are audited in the ministries of Health and Education.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other issue that I have observed is that the Office of the Auditor-General has not had a substantive Auditor-General in place for almost two years now. The last time the contract for the former Auditor-General, Madam Anna Chifungula, expired was around 2015, I stand to be corrected. Since she left, we have only had an Acting Auditor-General occupying that position.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are dangers of having a person acting in that capacity of Auditor-General because it erodes the confidence that people have in the institution. For instance, assuming the Office of the Auditor-General wants to lobby for some funds to undertake a specific project or audit, during evaluation, the first question the co-operating partner from which it seeks assistance will ask whether the institution has a head or an Auditor-General. The answer will be no and that it only has an Acting-Auditor General. So, that will erode confidence and as result, we may deprive ourselves and this institution of some of the benefits that can accrue to it in the event that it had a substantive Auditor-General.

 

Madam, it is on this score that I would want to implore our leaders in the Government to consider appointing a substantive Auditor-General so that we enhance the confidence that people have in the Office of the Auditor-General.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you and wish to, once again, say that I support the allocation to the Office of the Auditor-General.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kamboni (Kalomo Central): Thank very much, Madam Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote of the Office of the Auditor-General.

 

Mr Jere: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: On behalf of my constituency and Zambia in general, today, we debate the Office of the Auditor-General, which plays a very important role in our dispensation of running of the country. Now, from the outset, I will first begin by analysing what makes this department weak.

 

Madam Chairperson, firstly, the structures that we have in Zambia are so weak that in certain circumstances, they do not exist at all. When one looks at the Office of the Auditor-General, he or she realises that the structures that are supposed to support it and make it a useful organisation are not in place.

 

First of all, Madam Chairperson, when one analyses the Office of the Auditor-General, it has no teeth to bite after auditing. The earliest charge after auditing takes place in twelve months, if the Office of the Auditor-General is very effective. We cannot have such a system in place. For instance, if people have misappropriated funds, they will have enough time to shift or leave this country and will not be traced. So, we need a system that is up to-date and one which is so effective that after auditing, it can only take two to three days to take a culprit to court.

 

However, Madam Chairperson, I am wondering why it has taken this country over fifty-three years of not giving the auditors the powers they deserve to execute their work. As a result, this country has lost colossal sums of money which could have been used to do other things in the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the capacity of the Office of the Auditor-General. The office does not have the capacity to audit the whole country. In countries where systems of auditing are effective, every government department is audited once per month. By the end of the year, a government department would have been audited, at least, a minimum of twelve times and more in some cases. However, our Audit Department cannot do that. It does not audit all the departments in a year, but can only audit it is requested to, which do not even amount to a big number. We cannot run a country like that. Then, how do we catch the culprits? When people know it is free for all, then, they are bound to misuse money that is meant to improve other people’s lives.

 

Therefore, Madam Chairperson, what we need to do now is to change the system and give more powers to the Office of the Auditor-General. Apart from that, we need to also amend the Constitution to give the Office of the Auditor-General teeth to bite and to act very effectively. For instance, the office of the Auditor-General is not yet independent. It is still under the Public Service Commission, which is a mistake. After it has done its work, it has to use either the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) or other departments with which it has a memorandum of understanding and the same cases in these departments are not very effective. As a result, the work that is done does not serve the country because it remains on the shelves.

 

Madam Chairperson, if I may ask a question, of all the departments that the Auditor-General has found malfunctioning, how many have been charged? How many have been prosecuted? The answer is bad. We cannot run a country like that because this is a critical office that can save a lot of resources that can be used by everybody in the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, sometimes I wonder why we have the Office of the Auditor-General. The area in which we have had a lot of money going in for investment in the past three years has been the Road Development Agency (RDA). The RDA has taken up a lot of money of the country, but it has been placed at State House where it cannot be audited. How can such colossal sums of money be managed without auditing? This is where the problem comes in.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Kamboni: It is a fact! Yes, the Office of the President cannot be audited. That is a fact.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kamboni: Those are the rules. That is why we are saying it should be removed from State House so that it can be audited because it holds a lot of money for the country. This is the only country where a kilometre of a road is costing US$3.8 million, yet it is only US$250 in other countries.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: The same thing applies with the private-public partnership (PPP). Where there is a lot of money involved, it cannot be audited. So, why do we even have this office?

 

Madam Chairperson, we have also had a few amendments to the Constitution, which the Government is delaying to implement so that it can continue to have loose money. If these changes were implemented, this department would have been given a little independence to run its work effectively. However, unfortunately, the constitutional changes that were made have not been implemented to date and I do not know who is will implement them. The implementation of these changes would help, although not much. For these changes to operate effectively, we need to change the Constitution to adapt to the current environment.

 

Madam Chairperson, if this office is very important, considering the amount of money that is allocated to it, why do we still have an acting Auditor-General instead of a substantive one, the who has been appointed to do the job? From 2015, we cannot uphold that appointment and that shows how the Patriotic Front (PF) looks at this office. It does not care about this office.

 

Madam Chairperson, even if we are allocating such amounts of money to this office, we have a lot of auditors who are not qualified. This belief that cadres can do anything must stop. The belief that a cadre can repair a car, be a medical doctor or be an engineer when he or she did not go to school for these things should stop ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: ... because certain jobs need professional people. We are putting money in the millions into this office, but it has auditors who are not qualified. How can they do the work? Even assistant directors are not qualified. If you have bothered to analyse this whole department, you will find that the majority of the employees are not qualified. Further, why is it that posts that fall vacant are never advertised? Why not advertise them so that qualified people can do a good job? We have lost millions because all these things are done deliberately by the current Government in order to allow loose money.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr L. Tembo: Everyone is a cadre!

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, the relationship between the auditors and the clientele is very bad. Some clients are untouchable. They even insult and threaten to beat up the auditors because they know that nothing will happen.

 

Madam Chairperson, some Permanent Secretaries are rude to these auditors. Auditors are intimidated because Permanent Secretaries are untouchable. This office does not have the support it needs from the Executive which ought to give it more powers so that it can do its job effectively. The result of this lack of support is that the office has almost given up.

 

Madam Chairperson, when auditors go to these offices, they are the ones kneeling in order for work to be done because they do not have the authority that they need. The Executive needs to support the Office of the Auditor-General so that it can have powers to audit anybody. We do not want a situation where some are untouchable while others can be audited. You cannot run a country, province, district or even a council like that. We need those who are in charge of this to pull up their socks so that this office can make sense. Otherwise, I do not see why we even give it money.

 

Ms Kapata interjected.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Bena ba Baptist.

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, this country has lost money through misappropriation which, in another island, could build another country. However, the whole system has completely ignored this office so that corruption can continue. May I now remind the Government that this money that is being misappropriated could be used to repair a pothole that has killed many people. A pothole on the Kafue/Mazabuka Road has possibly taken the lives of more than 100 people and this money that is misappropriated could be the money to repair that pothole. This money that we lose could be the money to stop the cholera outbreak, which has killed many people, by providing clean water. This money that is going unchecked could be the money that could be used to buy medication in hospitals. How many people have died because of the lack of good treatment and medication? We need to protect this money and use it for things that matter.

 

Madam Chairperson, in my view, the Budget that we have given this office is too small. Even though the Office of the Auditor-General has the capacity, the amount it has been given is not enough. We need to inject more money and hire more qualified people. I am happy that the hon. Minister of Justice is here because, above all, we need to amend Article 250 to allow it to give more power to the Office of the Auditor-General so that it can save the country a lot of money. Since we are in the process of reviewing the Constitution, I am sure the hon. Minister of Justice will be able to do something about it.

 

Madam Chairperson, it becomes difficult when the systems are compromised like this and it is the reason things that are very suspicious go unnoticed. How could we have the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) say there was nothing wrong with the procurement of the fire tenders when everyone knows that it was wrong?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: How could the ACC sign-off the dual carriageway to Ndola and say that everything was okay when everything is not okay? This is why we need to be serious with the Office of the Auditor-General as opposed to the way things are now. At the moment, this office is a white elephant and we are giving it money for free because it does nothing.

 

Madam Chairperson, in last year’s report, a lot of money was wasted and stolen. I want to propose that those who plunder the resources of the country be given capital punishment because that is a crime against humanity. So many people lose lives when this money is misappropriated.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: This money could save people who die in hospitals and, on the roads, as a result of potholes and through cholera outbreaks. What is the difference between somebody who kills 100 people and someone who steals money and causes 1 million people to die?

 

Madam Chairperson, we need to change. The system is also very weak, if at all it exists, to deal with those who misappropriate funds. You become a hero in Zambia when you steal from the Government because nothing will be done. We have deliberately done things this way to ensure that we get away with stealing a lot of money.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: My suggestion is that people who misuse Government money be given capital punishment. We cannot have a system that protects those who steal from the Government.

 

Madam Chairperson, hon. Cabinet Ministers make an oath to protect the confidentiality of State House. However, people in Zambia have misinterpreted this to mean taking oath to protect the corrupt. If you try to compare a fire truck to a wheelbarrow people demand that you be fired.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam, that tells you a lot. Instead of arresting those who are misappropriating funds, you want to arrest those who are telling us that there is something wrong.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Speaker, when you are sworn in as a Cabinet Minister, you do not swear to conceal corruption and misappropriation of funds, but that is how low our governance system has gone. Why do we even have the Office of the Auditor-General if it does nothing? How many people have been arrested when so much money has been stolen in the past three years?

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Chibanda: How much?

 

Ms Kapata interjected.

 

Mr Kamboni: We will only stop talking about corruption when they stop being corrupt. For as long as they continue, we will continue.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kamboni: Madam Chairperson, let me end by saying that we really need to punish those who are misappropriating funds because it is too much. They are making a lot of Zambians miserable. I am waiting for the day when we shall give the Office of the Auditor-General teeth so that it can do its work well. As for now, I support the budget, but the money that has been allocated is too little. I am hoping that the things I have suggested, like having qualified people in office, will one day be implemented. Let us learn to take advice. Our being here will not make sense if we talk and nothing is done.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Madam Chairperson, I also want to support the budget of the Office of the Auditor-General. In doing so, I want to say that the Office of the Auditor-General is an essential unit of the Government and it adds value to the governance system in the country. It helps to provide checks and balances, but also enhances our oversight role as parliamentarians.

 

Madam Chairperson, that being said, I also want to commend the Office of the Auditor-General for having tried by all means to be current in the reports that it has been producing. I want to believe that now we are talking about the 2015 Auditor-General’s Report, but previously, before the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, we had a battle. We were dealing with issues after three or four years, but now the Office of the Auditor-General is doing a commendable job and it needs to be supported in its work.

 

Madam Chairperson, Her Honour the Vice-President made reference to the Public Finance Act. This is an essential component and it needs to be presented to this House so that certain amendments can be made progressively and that some punitive measures are introduced in the Public Finance Act. I would want to implore the hon. Minister that if we are only going to amend the Public Finance Act without looking at the disciplinary process, this particular Act will not be able to be implemented effectively.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Civil Service disciplinary process is quite lengthy for the punitive measures to be matted. Therefore, it does not act as a deterrent because people know that it will take long before they are disciplined. So, we need to look at it seriously. We need to look at the processes and emulate the way it used to be under the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM). Previously, when someone committed an offense in the ZCCM, it took about five days for that case to be disposed of, whether or not that person needed to be disciplined, charged or discharged. That is exactly how we need to deal with certain culprits. The Public Finance Act requires an amendment and there is no doubt about it. The process of disciplining erring officers must go in tandem with the amendments of the Act.

 

Madam Chairperson, it also brings me to an issue of officers who may have been transferred from one department to the other. More often than not, you will find that a Permanent Secretary (PS) who was heading the ministry is transferred to another ministry and when flaws are discovered at the time of auditing, he or she will not be called to answer for the issues that happened during the time he or she was in that office because he or she would have been transferred. I think we need to look at that. It is a loophole that needs to be screened in order to ascertain whether that person should be recalled to answer to questions pertaining to what transpired during the time he or she was heading a particular ministry. The same applies to directors. The new person in that office will not be able to answer to those queries because he was not there when those things were happening. Indeed, it is collective responsibility, but we need to call individuals who know exactly what happened in those offices under the period being queried. These are controlling officers and must be responsible for everything that happens in the offices they occupy. Why not bring them to the table so that they can be able to shade more light on what may have happened?

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Finance also needs to look at the internal controls. If strong internal controls are well-implemented and followed effectively, they will reduce the time the officers from the Office of the Auditor-General spend in these ministries. That way, we will be able to reduce on the costs. If internal controls are not properly followed, the officers from the Auditor-General’s Office will have to spend a lot of time in the departments and ministries and this will cost the Government a lot of money. So, the Director of Internal Audit in the Ministry of Finance needs to look at this issue and take it upon himself to ensure that we have strong, effective and efficient internal controls within the Republic of Zambia, and especially the Government entities.

 

Madam Speaker, now that there is an added responsibility by the Constitution to audit various councils, it is also right that we look at the integrity committees that have been talked about in various ministries so that they can complement the works of the Office of the Auditor-General. The integrity committees will prevent certain things from happening. If these integrity committees are well-integrated or co-ordinated, issues such as misapplication of funds and corruption will reduce.  This will, again, reduce on the time which officers from the Office of the Auditor-General spend in these ministries because, then, they will be able to act as a buffer or a mirror to prevent certain things from happening.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about decentralisation. I am aware that the Office of the Auditor-General is available in provincial headquarters, but with the increase in the number of districts, it is only right that we look at decentralisation and see if we can position the Office of the Auditor-General in certain districts. That way, it will also help in the timely production of the Auditor-General’s Report because people will be deployed to various departments so that they can quickly finish and send the information to the provincial headquarters.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Madam Chairperson, I promise to be very brief. In being brief, I would like to just agree with those who have debated before me that the Office of the Auditor-General is a very important office. However, in debating this office, we must be mindful of the fact that we are not only speaking amongst ourselves, but also to the general public. What is said in this House must always be based on facts. Otherwise, we are bound to mislead our people.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to suggest to my good friend, Hon. Komboni, …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Lubinda: ... sorry, Hon. Kamboni that when he speaks about the qualifications of people in the Office of the Auditor-General, he will be kind to those officers if he verified his statements before making them. It is totally unfair and uncalled-for for any person to claim that the Office of the Auditor-General is full of party cadres because in this office, there is not a single person who is employed on the basis of their political affiliation. To cast such an aspersion against those officers is to demean the authority with which they will carry out their work. What the hon. Member is hoping to achieve will actually be the opposite.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, secondly, in case my friend, Hon. Kamboni, has not bothered to read the Constitution, I want to make it clear to him that there is no office under the land in Zambia which receives any budgetary allocation from the Treasury that is not subject to audit. Even the Office of the President and State House are bound to audit by the Office of the Auditor-General. To create an impression that the decision to bring the Road Development Agency (RDA) under the eyes of the Presidency is to exclude it from being audited is total misinformation and must not be allowed to be traded in this House. This is a House of fact and not of innuendo or a House where people trade misinformation.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, further to that, I am surprised that my hon. Colleague suggested that the Minister of Justice looks at Article 250 of the Constitution, which is a provision that creates the Office of the Auditor-General, and that he must strengthen it. It appears to me that my colleagues may not have even read that Article.

 

Madam Chairperson, Article 250 is very instructive on the authority of the Office of the Auditor-General. It is the only creation of the Constitution in the land which has provisions on the management and promotion of staff. According to the Constitution, the employment, supervision, management and promotion of officers in the Office of the Auditor-General shall be prescribed by an Act of Parliament.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, what more authority is required to be given to the Office of the Auditor-General? Over and above that, it is very clear that Article 250 states that the Auditor-General shall operate …

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1840 hours until 1700 hours.

 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTES in the

Chair]

 

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I will wind up my debate on two points. Both points are just to correct some wrong impression that has been created. The first is the issue of the whereabouts of the Auditor-General when the contract for the Lusaka/Ndola Dual Carriageway was being signed. Again, I would like to inform Hon. Kamboni that the Auditor-General has nothing to do with entering into contracts. The Auditor-General certainly will ask questions when the time comes.

 

Finally, Madam Chairperson, my good friend made a very misleading statement that the Auditor-General goes to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) based on a Memorandum of Understanding(MOU). Again, to hear that coming from an hon. Member of Parliament gives me goose pimples in the sense that I start to wonder whether we are really providing the representation that the people deserve if we, as hon. Members of Parliament, do not have a clear understanding of how such important institutions as the Auditor-General’s Office, Parliament and investigative wings of the Government operate.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is very clear in the Constitution that the Auditor-General has the power, not through an MOU, but a Constitutional provision to recommend to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) or any law enforcement agency of the country, any matter which he/she feels requires prosecution. It is not as though the Auditor-General is precluded from making these reports.

 

It is important, therefore, Madam Chairperson, that as we debate these offices, we raise issues which will add value instead of arguing and debating on the basis of misinformation and innuendo. I really hope that all of us in Parliament will take a leaf from the debate of Hon. Kamboni and debate intelligibly, …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Aah!

 

Mr Lubinda: … on the basis of truth and fact and not on the basis of trying to evoke emotion by talking to the public gallery.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank all hon. Members who have debated the Auditor-General’s budget policy statement. I will make a general comment beginning with the lack of provision for audit of local authorities. The office is anticipating Treasury authority for the creation of the new Audit Directorate which will audit all local authorities in the country. Once this is done, a supplementary budget to cater for the cost of audit of local authorities will be submitted to the National Assembly for approval.

 

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of employing qualified personnel, I would like to amplify the hon. Minister of Justice’s comment by stating that the office has more than 100 fully qualified auditing professionals and over 300 with requisite qualifications.

 

Mr Lubinda: Wamvela, Kamboni?

 

Ms Chalikosa: To be more specific, Madam, there are 120 with Association of Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA) and Chartered Institute of Management Accountants (CIMA) qualifications, eighty are degree holders and 100 have diplomas.

 

Mr Lubinda: Nanga ba Komboni?

 

Laughter

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, I would like to also comment that the Auditor-General’s office does not need to have prosecuting authority because the law enforcement agencies are there to carry out that work. So, they do collaborate with law enforcement agencies where they find that institutions are lacking. Controlling Officers are the ones charged with ensuring that financial regulations are followed. Where such regulations are not followed and audit queries are raised, they are addressed accordingly.

 

Madam Chairperson, without belabouring the point, I would like, once again, to thank everyone who debated. I beg to move.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 07/01 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Headquarters – K59,328,880).

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3082, Activity 032 – Support to forensic audit (2) − Nil. Forensic audit is an important part of the forensic audit, especially that it comes in handy where there are many allegations of corruption. Last year, K3,000,000 was allocated. However, there is completely nothing allocated to it this year. Is it that we do not trust the outcomes of forensic audits, important as they are, for this component to be left out completely?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, there is no provision made for 2018 because the agreement with our co-operating partners expires in December, 2017. However, there are plans to enter new negotiations for 2018.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 07/01 ordered to sand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 07/02, 07/03, 07/04, 07/05, 07/06, 07/07, 07/08, 07/09, 07/10, 07/22 and 07/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K332,025,280).

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Chairperson, in fulfilling its mandate, Cabinet Office is guided by the mission statement:

 

 “To effectively and efficiently co-ordinate and oversee Government policies and programmes and facilitate the conduct of Cabinet business in order to secure the general efficiency of the Public Service.”

 

Madam Chairperson, in line with its mission statement, and guided by the aspirations of the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP), especially pillar five, “Creating a Conducive Governance Environment for a Diversified and Inclusive Economy,” Cabinet Office will continue to focus on transforming the Public Service to be more responsive to the needs of the public. To this end, the office will ensure that systems and procedures are not only formulated, but are also implemented to secure the general efficiency and effectiveness of the Public Service.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2018, some of the major programmes that Cabinet Office will undertake include the following:

 

General Administration

 

Madam Chairperson, under this programme, the major activities that will be undertaken are;

 

1. public affairs and summit meetings: this programme is aimed at enabling the Presidency perform constitutional, Executive and other national duties. To this end, Cabinet Office will continue facilitating Presidential local and foreign travels. The office will, thus, ensure the maintenance and operation of the Presidential aircraft and motor vehicle fleet. Additionally, Cabinet Office will also facilitate the hosting and participation in summits and meetings, both local and foreign;

 

1. support to offices of the former Presidents: the Cabinet will continue providing administrative and logistical support to the offices of the First and Fourth Presidents as well as support services to the Second and Fifth Presidents’ families. This is in accordance with the provisions of the Benefits of Former Presidents (Amendment) Act No. 21 of 1998; and

 

1. State functions: Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate and organise State functions and the commemoration of national events in order to enable the President perform his executive and ceremonial duties.

 

Support to Strategic Institutions

 

Madam Chairperson, under this programme, Cabinet Office will provide funding to the Government Communication Department in order to facilitate effective and secure communication between Cabinet Office and other strategic institutions.

 

Cabinet Meetings and Management of the Policy Process

 

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate the conduct of Cabinet business and committee meetings and co-ordinate the formulation of public policies. It will continue to monitor and evaluate the implementation of policies and programmes by the Government, ministries and institutions. This is aimed at ensuring that we, as a nation, attain our aspirations of becoming a prosperous middle income country by 2030, without leaving anyone behind.

 

Strategic Planning, Restructuring and Institutional Development

 

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office will continue to institutionalise strategic management and the use of balanced score cards in the Public Service. In this regard, comprehensive institutional assessments and organisation development will be undertaken to facilitate effective restructuring of ministries and institutions in order to improve service delivery.

 

Decentralisation Policy

 

Madam Chairperson, in line with the provisions of the Constitution and thE 7NDP, the Cabinet will accelerate the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy. This is in an effort to create a conducive governance environment for a diversified and inclusive economy. In 2018, efforts will be expended to ensure that all the devolved functions are expeditiously matched with the requisite human and financial resources.

 

Performance Management Systems

 

Madam Chairperson, the Cabinet will continue to enhance the existing management and accountability systems for public officials and institutions. Some of the existing systems, such as the performance based contracts, will be reviewed and rolled out to encourage high standards of performance by heads of Government institutions in order to ensure objectivity, fairness and transparency.

 

Reform Co-ordination

 

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office will continue co-ordinating the implementation of high impact reforms and innovations in the public and private sector. This is in line with the 7NDP and other key strategic documents such as the Industrialisation and Job Creation Strategy.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am pleased to report that in 2017, Cabinet Office scored a number of successes, especially in areas such as co-ordination of national events and State functions, facilitating the development review of national policies, review of structures for the re-aligned ministries, undertaking of institutional assessments and implementation of the Decentralisation Policy. It also co-ordinated the training of senior and top Government officials in the balanced score card approach. In 2018, efforts will be scaled up in facilitating the formulation and implementation of policies and programmes. This is aimed at attaining a pro-poor growth, employment creation and sustainable human development without leaving anyone behind, in accordance with the aspirations of the Government, as capsulated in the 7NDP.

 

Madam Chairperson, the total 2018 budgetary allocation to Cabinet Office stands at K332,025,280 of which K29.2 million has been allocated for personal emoluments while K302.9 million is earmarked for non-personal emoluments. From the foregoing, it is clear that Cabinet Office plays a pivotal and critical role in the management of the Public Service and the overall provision of policy direction to the nation.

 

Madam Chairperson, the funds being requested for in the 2018 Estimates of Expenditure will, therefore, be necessary to enable Cabinet Office to effectively execute its mandate. I, therefore, request the hon. Members of this august House to support these estimates.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwewa (Mwansabombwe): Madam Chairperson, thank you. As I rise to support this Vote, I have a few concerns that I feel the Secretary to the Cabinet should look at critically. I am concerned about the distortions and disparities that I see in the remuneration unit under Cabinet Office.

 

Madam Chairperson, I feel that certain problems that are faced in different ministries could be attributed to certain distortions. When you look at salaries for directors, Permanent Secretaries (PS) and Cabinet Ministers, you will see the difference between a Director and a PS. However, you find that the PS gets more money than a Cabinet Minister. The question is why this is so. I wonder who is more superior between the two. Those are the distortions that I am talking about. I think that the Secretary to the Cabinet should harmonise the salary scales for Cabinet Ministers and PSs. That is why you find that sometimes, Cabinet Ministers and PSs fight. It is because the PS feels that he or she gets more money than a Cabinet Minister and so why should he or she be controlled by the hon. Minister? There is a problem there, and I feel so strongly that the Secretary to the Cabinet should harmonise that.

 

Madam Chairperson, when you go down to Chief Executive Officers, who are under PSs, you will see that they too get more money than the PS and Cabinet Minister. To make matters worse, the Bank of Zambia (BoZ) Governor gets more money than the hon. Minister of Finance. He actually gets much more than the President of this country. Why is it like that? Why have we failed to harmonise this correctly? I feel that for us to move smoothly, Cabinet Office has a task of harmonising salaries. There is no way the PS should have a salary higher than that of a Cabinet Minister.

 

Madam Chairperson, I was very disappointed when I travelled from Russia. I was flying business class that Members of Parliament and Cabinet Ministers are entitled to.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

 

Mr Mwewa: While we awaited the Hon. Mr Speaker to disembark, I was surprised only to see the Deputy Service Chief saluting also coming from first class. So, when I asked whether Service Chiefs fly first class, I was told that they do. I was disappointed that an hon. Member of Parliament and Cabinet Minister, to whom the Service Chief salutes, flies business class while the Service Chief flies first class.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwewa: Madam Chairperson, what kind of distortion is that?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Kokolapo.

 

Mr Mwewa: Madam Chairperson, we have the three arms of Government, which are the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary. The heads of these institutions, His Excellency the President as well as the Vice-President, the Hon. Mr Speaker and the Chief Justice should fly first class, and it should end there. We will save money for Zambia that way. Service chiefs flying first class while Cabinet Ministers like Minister of Defence. fly business class are the distortions that I am talking about. I feel that for us to be progressive, we need to look at this.

 

Madam Chairperson, Cabinet Office prepares schedules for all public meetings. I went to a very important meeting where we, Members of Parliament, were not even recognised. I am aware of the fact that we do not debate ourselves. However, I am talking about the disparities that I have seen. When you attend a very important function, the organisers will talk about Cabinet Ministers, then, move to PSs without recognising Members of Parliament. Should we start writing letters asking the organisers of functions to recognise Members of Parliament? What is Cabinet Office doing? I feel strongly that these distortions and disparities in Government should come to an end.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate the Vote on the Floor. I also want to thank Hon. Mwewa, Member of Parliament for Mwansabombwe.

 

Madam Chairperson, in support of the budget for the Cabinet Office, I would like to talk much about State functions since a lot of questions have arisen with regards to people who organise them. Functions, such as annual balls, organised by the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) or the Zambia Army are well-organised and in order compared to functions organised by the Cabinet Office. Independence Day celebrations or Budget Address receptions organised by the Cabinet Office and the Ministry of Finance are not properly organised. They have brought shame to the country and to the diplomats because they have no order. People who are not supposed to attend these functions come and hurl insults at some hon. Members of Parliament because they do not belong to such functions.

 

Madam, I think that it is about time that the Cabinet Office seriously considered working with ZAF or the Zambia Army when organising State functions because their functions have more discipline.

 

Madam Chairperson, there have been a lot of pronouncements on decentralisation. As I speak, council chairpersons feel that they are higher in ranking to districts commissioners (DCs) and Members of Parliament because decentralisation has not been explained to them. I would like the Cabinet Office to organise a workshop for council chairpersons, DCs and, perhaps, Members of Parliament to explain our roles.

 

Madam Chairperson, a lot of council chairpersons do not even understand what decentralisation is. The Cabinet Office has not done much to educate them and the nation at large. They are busy rolling out this programme even though some of the staff does not understand what it actually is.  It is critical that Cabinet Office takes a very serious step to educate the citizenry so that they know what decentralisation is.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have heard of a council chairperson walking into a district medical office claiming to be the boss and making demands. This is because DCs believe that decentralisation has empowered them to be bosses. I feel that this needs attention and Cabinet Office needs to do more because it has not done much.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regards to the budget for Cabinet Office, hon. Members of Parliament need proper information concerning what is happening at the moment. My colleague already debated the role of an hon. Member of Parliament. It is like somebody who salutes you is accorded more respect at State functions. The mayor or council chairperson will be more recognised at a State function as opposed to hon. Members of Parliament. 

 

Mr Speaker, we would like Cabinet Office to start putting things in order. Let the nation, especially the children, understand in civic education who is who in the governance system. Otherwise, it is all messed up. There is total confusion. Some people are saying that they are now in-charge of the hospitals because decentralisation has been implemented. Others still are saying that because they are DCs, they will report directly to the State organs. I would like to urge Cabinet Office to come up with programmes that will benefit all those involved in the governance of this country up to the least person, who does not understand what decentralisation is.

 

With these few words from Chienge, Madam Chairperson, I support the budget of the Cabinet Office, whose amount is quite disturbing, considering the needs of the people out there. I think that more money should have been given to the office since much of the work that it is supposed to be done has not yet been done.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you. 

 

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order (while seated)!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, as I debate the budget for Cabinet Office, I would like to remind my colleagues on your right of the commitments and assurances that they made to the nation during election campaigns.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am referring to benefits of former Presidents. I am aware that the President of the Republic, during campaigns, indicated that continuing to build houses for former presidents was no longer tenable and that immediately he won the election, he would amend the law to ensure that we no longer built houses for former Presidents.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Unfortunately, this assurance or commitment, which was made to the nation, appears to have been abandoned. No one in the Government is talking about it.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, it would appear to the Government that it is now a good thing to continue spending money building houses for former Presidents. I would like to hear from her Honour the Vice-President what the position of the Government is on the construction of houses for former presidents, taking into account the assurances the Government made to the nation.

 

Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the other issue I would like to raise pertains to presidential travels. We have been informed that Cabinet Office is the one that arranges trips for His Excellency the President by facilitating transportation. I would like Her Honour the Vice-President to comment and refute the information that is in public domain, the world over, pertaining to the purchase of a new presidential plane from a Russian company. I would like to hear whether these reports that we have read are true. According to the reports, the Government of the Republic of Zambia has bought four planes from a Russian company. One of these planes is meant for His Excellency the President ...

 

Ms Siliya: So?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … while the other three are intended for the would-be Zambian Government airline. I would like the Government to …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … state, very clearly, whether it has decided to buy a new plane for His Excellency the President and what will be done with the plane that is currently in use. I would like a categorical answer on this issue, considering that we are employing austerity measures. Purchasing a new plane is not cheap because it requires a lot money.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, the other issue, which I would like Her Honour the Vice-President to state very categorically, is that of district commissioners (DCs).

 

Madam, Her Honour the Vice-President has been telling us, on the Floor of the House, that DCs are civil servants, but what is occurring on the ground is something totally different. As far as we are concerned, the DCs are politicians and they are busy politicking. They are involved in campaigns and they are also using Government resources when campaigning contrary to the conditions of service and to the law. The law states that it is only the Republican President and the Vice-President who are entitled to use Government facilities during elections. We have noticed and also complained to the authorities about this issue, but it appears that the DCs are beyond the authorities that are supposed to discipline them in this country.

 

Madam, we are aware of DCs who have been involved in violence and have assaulted people during campaigns, but no action has been taken. We are also aware of two DCs who discharged firearms and shot individuals during campaigns, but no action has been taken. It is like they are above the law.

 

Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: They are contributing to the violence that is obtaining during elections. We would like to hear from Her Honour the Vice-President what the role of the DCs is in our political dispensation.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other issue on which I would like to hear from Her Honour the Vice-President is the inconsistency that is obtaining in the policies of the Government. When a particular hon. Minister makes a pronouncement, another hon. Minister comes to disregard it by making a different pronouncement. We would like to see consistency in policies. This is the institution that is supposed to give directions to the Cabinet pertaining to the management and policy direction of the Government, but it appears as if this particular institution is moribund because it is not playing its role as per the policies of the Government. We would like to hear from Her Honour the Vice-President what measures the Government is putting in place to ensure that only qualified persons are employed in the Civil Service.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have now noticed situations whereby people who are not qualified to be PSs are appointed to this position. I am aware that at one time, the Government appointed a PS, who was originally a bus conductor from the Inter-City Bus Terminus.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, it is only that we are not allowed to mention names, otherwise, I would have done that. We know a former PS who rose from being a bus conductor of a bus operator who happens to be an hon. Member of Parliament in this House. He was appointed DC and, then, PS in Lusaka Province, yet he was just a bus conductor from the Inter-City Bus Terminus. The said PS used to read newspapers upside down ...

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … because he could not read. How could we allow such a situation to obtain in this country when there is an institution that is supposed to take care of this?

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we are also aware of certain hon. Ministers who are making running commentaries, but do not have qualifications.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Please, allow the Leader of the Opposition to debate.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for your protection. I am capable of hitting back.

 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the point I am making is that this is the most important institution of the Government. Therefore, it is supposed to give guidance to all the ministries in this country. If we lose track and stop following the guidelines, we will not forge ahead in terms of development. We want an institution that is independent, impartial and professional. This is the plea that I am making to the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet
because Cabinet Office is headed by the Secretary to the Cabinet, who is the chief advisor to the Government. If anything, …

 

Hon. Government: We are aware.

 

Mr Mwiimbu:  I know those who are saying “we aware” were just DCs.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the point I am making is that we should allow this institution ...

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Remember Mutale, I am always reluctant to mention names, but your conduct is disruptive.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

You may, please, continue, hon. Leader of the Opposition.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for your protection.

 

Madam, the point I am making is that this organisation is headed by the chief advisor to the Government. Therefore, all the ministries look up to the Secretary to the Cabinet for advice and guidance and that is how it should be.

 

Madam Chairperson we have noticed that some of the ministries and the PSs have no regard for this office. They carry out programmes on their own without any directive from the Secretary to the Cabinet. We would like to appeal to Her Honour the Vice-President to ensure that all civil servants abide by the directions that are being given by the Secretary to the Cabinet, as the Chief Executive of the Civil Service. Alas! That is not happening.

 

Madam, we also have a situation whereby some PSs in certain provinces are issuing circulars that are calling for developmental meetings leaving out other hon. Members of Parliament.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, for instance, we have a situation in Central Province where hon. Opposition Members of Parliament were left out from attending a meeting that is intended for the development of the province …

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … because they belong to the Opposition. We have evidence, which we can lay on the Table. There was a meeting on 28^th October, 2017, in Kabwe, where hon. Opposition Members ….

 

Mr Mwiimbu raised the paper.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I will lay the paper on the Table.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, green horns should listen to what others are saying.

 

Mr Musonda: Hammer!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam, I am saying that when you are endowed with the authority to administer a province, you must control it prudently without discrimination because as a PS, you are a civil servant.  A PS must not side with a particular political party because that is how it is supposed to be.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I indicated, I have a circular dated 25^th October, 2017, written to the following:

 

1. the His Worship – the Mayor of Kabwe;

 

1. the Town Clerk – Kabwe;

 

1. the DC – Ngabwe;

 

1. the Council Chairperson – Mkushi;

 

1. the Council Chairperson – Serenje;

 

1. the Council Chairperson – Chitambo,

 

1. the Council Chairperson – Luano; and

 

1. the Council Chairperson – Ngabwe.              

            

Madam, the subject of this letter was that it was an invitation to an extraordinary meeting with hon. Members of Parliament to be held on 28^th October, 2017. The point I am making is that none of the hon. Opposition Members of Parliament were invited to this particular meeting. Even the mayors and chairpersons in the Opposition-held councils were not invited.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Why should that be? In the constituencies where the hon. Opposition Members of Parliament hail from, there are members of the Ruling Party who are supposed to benefit from development. The Ruling Party is discriminating against its own members. It is actually discriminating against Zambians who deserve development in this country.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, those who are in the Government are in it for every Zambian. Therefore, they must not discriminate.

 

Mr Chisopa: Lay the paper on the Table.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, if one has been petitioned and is anxious about his/her case being heard, why behave like that?

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Leader of the Opposition!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Mwiimbu!

 

You have thirty-nine seconds. Please, continue.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, lastly, I want to appeal to the Secretary to the Cabinet.

 

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: This is the authority that is responsible for ensuring that Government memoranda and statutory instruments are issued. I would like to appeal to him to ensure that the Parliamentary Service Commission is actualised through his office. We cannot wait any longer.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Chairperson, the heart, soul and character of the Public Service squarely lies in Cabinet Office. I think it is very important …

 

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Chisopa, I did not give you the Floor. Why are you standing?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Livune: Ni Mailoni brothers mama uyu!

 

The Chairperson: Why would you want to stand before being given the Floor? There is an hon. Member on the Floor who is debating. Why do you want to disturb him?

 

Mr Chisopa interjected.

 

The Chairperson: I have not given you the Floor. I made it very clear that I would be reluctant to allow points of order. Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa will continue.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that the heart, soul and character of the Public Service squarely lie in Cabinet Office. It is Cabinet Office that shapes the nature of our Civil Service. I think it is very important that we remind ourselves of where we have come from.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 1964, Zambia had only 100 university graduates. Out of that number, there were only two medical doctors serving 2.5 million Africans. There was only one engineer, and one agriculturist. So, Zambia was ill qualified and prepared for the challenges of development in an independent era.

 

Clearly, Madam Speaker, our Civil Service was predominantly run by expatriates. Even secretaries were coming from places like Jamaica, Guyana and West Africa. Most accountants were from India and other countries. Even our teachers were predominantly expatriates. I remember that when I went to Form One, we only had two Zambian teachers. The rest were expatriates from Canada, Britain, India and other parts of Europe and West and East Africa. Therefore, our role models were expatriates.

 

Madam, when I went to the university, most of the lecturers who taught us were expatriates. In the School of Education where I was, or Department of Education as it was called then, there was no Zambian lecturer. So, the Civil Service, as we know it, became the melting pot of talent from various parts of the country. We saw some of our colleagues preparing to join the Civil Service, as a place to develop a career. Therefore, we have seen the Zambian Civil Service taking the national character. Cabinet Office has been nurturing, shaping and developing a Civil Service of a national character. That is where we have come from.

 

Madam Chairperson, therefore, we expect Cabinet Office to maintain that history through the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), where the recruitment to the Civil Service takes place. Cabinet Office should maintain the national character of our Civil Service. It should be the pride of all of us when we look at our young professionals from all over the country shaping public policy and the destiny of this country. It is, therefore, incumbent upon the Civil Service to maintain the history of where we have come from.

 

Madam Chairperson, another very important aspect is that the Civil Service, which Cabinet Office supervises or superintends over, should be modeled after the Ministry of Health. Anybody who understands how the Civil Service operates looks at what happens in the Ministry of Health. The ministry employs generalists, who are medical doctors fresh from the university. However, efficient and effective delivery of medical services cannot be met by generalists, hence specialisation has to be undertaken. Therefore, these generalists have to develop into neurosurgeons, orthopedic surgeons, heart surgeons, gynecologists and pediatricians, among others. Once that specialisation has been achieved, then, you have a health system that can effectively deliver services to the public.

 

Madam, that is the same model that ought to prevail over the Civil Service, which should not be contented with generalists, that is, those with general knowledge only. The Civil Service, through Cabinet Office, must strive to develop, shape and nurture specialists or experts in different areas. Once we have specialised professionals, the performance of the Civil Service will effectively be challenged. Performance benchmarks can be effectively, realistically and reasonably put in place to see how well the Civil Service is responding to public needs. That is the responsibility of Cabinet Office.

 

Madam Chairperson, the 21^st Century is one of specialists and experts. The Civil Service, which Cabinet Office superintends, must recruit the brightest and the best. We must all have confidence in those who are recruited to be in the Civil Service. The best professionals in the country should actually be found in the Civil Service, beyond the universities which produce the experts at various levels of study. Cabinet Office must live to that expectation. It must shape and nurture a Civil Service of experts.

 

However, Madam Chairperson, what we hear and see does not reasonably or realistically meet that expectation. There is no way we can live up to the challenges of our time in terms of competitiveness on the regional or global scale without a Civil Service that is well-prepared for the challenges of development.

 

Therefore, Madam, it is my hope that Cabinet Office will give the Civil Service special attention to the training needs of civil servants. These training needs should meet national challenges in various fields and prepare our Civil Service adequately. That means Cabinet Office has to pay attention to what is happening in the institutions of higher learning locally.

 

Madam Chairperson, most of our institutions of training, universities in particular, are embarking on their training programmes without very clear guidance from Cabinet Office. The training programmes going on in our universities ought to be relevant to the Civil Service. How much guidance has Cabinet Office given to these institutions of higher learning? These institutions are supposed to be responsive to the needs of the country, but Cabinet Office is not providing that guidance. I am not saying that Cabinet Office should direct these institutions, but that it should provide guidance so that our training institutions can shape their training programmes in accordance with the needs of the country.

 

Madam, that disjuncture and disjointedness between the training programmes and training needs of our country must be addressed and the best institution to address that is Cabinet Office. In many countries, cabinet office provides the general framework within which institutions operate and respond to the needs of the country, especially when it comes to human resource expert development for the nation. I would like to see Cabinet Office play that role, as a guiding institution in the human resource needs of the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, the challenges are enormous in Cabinet Office and I hope that it can respond to them in order to meet the expectations of national development.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate the comments offered by all the hon. Members of Parliament, beginning with Hon. Mwewa, who expressed concern on the distortion in remuneration of civil servants and politicians.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to inform the House that the Remuneration Division is a new creation and its aim is to address the distortions in emoluments. Once the Emoluments Commission is in place, the distortions will be addressed.

 

Madam, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu expressed concern on the benefits related to former Presidents. I wish to inform the hon. Member and the House that a technical committee was instituted to draft the Bill to repeal the Benefits of Former Presidents Act. This Bill is being worked on and it is an on-going process.

 

Madam, on the issue of decentralisation and the wrangles between the district commissioners (DC) and the council chairpersons, I wish to inform the House that workshops have been held in Ndola, for the northern region, and in Lusaka for the southern region, to look at each office’s mandate. This sensitisation will continue, bearing in mind that new districts have been created and there have been staff transfers. So, for as long as this problem persists, sensitisation will go on. You may wish to know that DCs are appointed by the Civil Service Commission and are subject to the Public Service disciplinary code.

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa talked about the Civil Service under Cabinet Office. I wish to inform the House that the Civil Service reforms are on-going. They are continuous. Cabinet Office has always given the necessary guidance to the Civil Service and will continue to do so.

 

With those few words, I beg to move.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

VOTE 08/01 – (Cabinet Office- Office of the President – Headquarters – K299,000,440).

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Chairperson, ...

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.       

 

[THE CHAIPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Mr Lufuma: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was seeking clarification on Programme 3001 – General Administration – K249,261,470. I have several questions under this programme. The first is on Activity 033 – Support Services to the Second President’s Family – Nil. K500,000 was allocated in 2017, but nothing at all has been allocated in 2018. I would like to find out why the Second President’s Family has not been allocated anything. We do not want them starving do we?

 

Madam Chairperson, the other item under the same programme is Activity 037 – Support Services to the President’s Family – K1,800,000. In 2017, an allocation of K950,000 was made and in 2018 the allocation has more than doubled. This is 100 per cent increase. My question is: What extra activities, way above that which was budgeted for in 2017, have necessitated this leap? This question also applies to Activity 093 – Support Services to the Fifth President’s Family – K1, 800,000. The allocation in 2017 was K950,000, but it has leaped to K1.8 million.

 

The Chairperson: Do you mean Activity 095?

 

Mr Lufuma: Yes, Madam Chairperson, Activity 095.

 

Madam, Activity 096 – Support Services to the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet – K1,900,000. Last year, this office was allocated K450,000, but this year, it has dramatically leaped to more 425 per cent above the last figure to K1,900,000. In the midst of austerity measures and what is called fiscal stabilisation and discipline, one wonders why this increase. Please, explain as to which extra activities have been incorporated in the 2018 Budget to make it leap by approximately 425 per cent.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also wish to seek clarification on Activity 056  −  …

 

Mr Nkombo: Leave that one for me to ask.

 

Mr Lufuma: I leave it for you, alright. I will leave that one for Hon. Nkombo to ask.

 

The other item, Madam Chairperson, …

 

The Chairperson: Perhaps, the hon. Member should allow Her Honour the Vice-President to respond. You have given about four questions.

 

Mr Lufuma: The last one, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: No, sit down. Let her first answer this. You can ask again.

 

Mr Lufuma: Alright.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, I think I will need assistance with going through all the requests. I may miss some. However, in the event that I do, I may request that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabompo to repeat.

 

The Chairperson: The first one is on Programme 3001 – General Administration, Activity 033 – Services to the Second President’s Family – Nil. Why is there no allocation?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 3001, Activity 033 – Support Services to the Second President’s Family – Nil, the budget line has not been provided for due to the demise of the Second President’s Spouse.

 

The Chairperson: The next one is Activity 037 under the same programme.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Activity 037 − Support Services to the Third President’s Family – K1,800,000. This allocation is meant to provide for administrative and logistical support services to the family of the Third President. The increase in allocation is attributed to the factoring in of house rentals and other related costs.

 

The Chairperson: I think he said Activity 095.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Support services to the Secretary to the Cabinet …

 

The Chairperson: To the Fifth President’s Family.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Activity 095 – Support Services to the Fifth President’s Family – K1,800,000. The increase in allocation is attributed to the increase in rental and related costs.

 

Madam Chairperson, Activity 096 − Support Services to the Office of the Secretary to Cabinet – K1,900,000. The allocation is meant to provide for support to the Office of the Secretary to the Cabinet. The increase in allocation is attributed to the under budgeting of 2017 due to limited fiscal space and the increase is to bring it to reflect realistic costs.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 024 – Inter-company Relay – K100,000. Firstly, I would like to find out whether the Inter-company Relay for 2017 was successful. Please, do answer that one. Secondly, if it was successful and it cost us K23,000, why have we found it necessary to increase it from that amount to K100,000? Please, explain. Again, we are talking about austerity measures and fiscal discipline and consolidation. So, where it is possible, we are supposed to maintain what was budgeted for in 2017.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 3002, Activity 024 – Inter-company Relay – K100,000, to begin with, the increase in allocation is due to the increased number of participants that will undertake this activity in 2018. This is in keeping with health issues where we are encouraging all workers to be physically fit and participation in the Inter-company Relay is one of the activities that are undertaken.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Lufuma: But was it successful?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Yes, it was successful.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 033 – Support Services to the Second President’s Family – Nil and Activity 056 – Support Services to the First Lady – K3,000,000. My concern is, firstly, a follow up to the earlier question in which Her Honour the Vice-President attempted to answer for the absence of the allocation of money to the Second President’s family. In her answer, she said it is because the spouse of the second President has died. Are these monies for spouses or families? I do believe that the late President Chiluba, may his soul rest in peace, and his wife at the time he died, who has also died, must have left a family behind. Is it the general rule that once your wife dies and does not have children with you, there should be no support to those children who were left from your side and your wife’s side? I need some clarification there.

 

Madam Chairperson, secondly, I am sure that you recall that in 2012, after the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, we had difficulties with Programme 3001, Activity 056 – Support to the First Lady – K3,000,000. The first time this allocation showed its ugly face in the Yellow Book, we protested and demanded that we are told what the actual deliverables             were from the activities of the first lady, considering that almost everything in State House, where she lives, is free. At that time, it was Dr Christine Kaseba and some people thought we were being malicious.

 

Madam Speaker, I have noticed, with a lot of dismay, that in the midst of financial difficulties for our country, the Government has decided to double the allocation from K1,500,000 to K3,000,000. I would like to know, in no uncertain terms, what the deliverables are from this allocation starting from this year that just passed. Could the hon. Minister tell us what deliverables we saw from the activities of the First Lady and why there is a double allocation? I would have been happy if we left it just the way it was and I will vote no unless the Government decides to leave it at K1,500,000 because we are now exercising austerity in our country. I think this is a waste.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3001, Activity 033 – Support Services to the Second President’s Family – Nil, the additional information is that once the children reach the age of twenty-one, they become adults and are no longer the Government’s responsibility. On Activity 056 – Support Services to the First Lady – K3,000,000, we appreciate the concerns by the hon. Member, however, some of the benefits that have come out of the First Lady’s work beginning with Dr Christine Kaseba you may have noticed that she did a lot of work in the cancer research and as a result of that, we have had a lot of support in that area.

 

Madam Chairperson, coming to the current First Lady, we have received scholarships for vulnerable students given through the Office of Foreign Governments and Foundations, we have received equipment for health facilities and funds that have benefitted communities, especially the vulnerable and, in particular, those with different abilities. There is also the creation of a positive image. Generally, good will is created by working with other First Ladies of other countries.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, in her response, the hon. Minister indicated that due to the assistance of this fund, the Office of the First Lady received funds and assistance to help the less privileged and vulnerable people. Should the fact that the office has received funds not be the more reason the Budget line should be reduced?

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member may wish to know that the funds received are not intended to run her office, but are direct donations to charitable organisations within the country.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 08/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 08/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 08/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 08/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 08/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 08/10 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – E-Government Division – Nil).

 

The Chairperson: This particular department has no allocation, perhaps, you can just explain why.

 

Ms Chalikosa: Madam Chairperson, this has now been transferred to Vote 39 – Smart Zambia Institute – K76,220,600. It is now a stand-alone department.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 08/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 08/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K9,675,940).

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me the opportunity to present this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission. The Teaching Service Commission is one of the service commissions in Zambia established under Section 223 of the Constitution and draws its mandate from the Service Commission Act, No. 10 of 2016.

 

Madam Chairperson, the commission is mandated to provide an administrative and professional service by handling the recruitment of teachers, appointments, confirmations, secondments, promotions, retirements and disciplinary cases of the teaching staff.

 

Madam Chairperson, from 2018 to 2020, the Government will implement human resources reforms which will entail the commission delegating some human resource functions to line ministries and councils to promote timely appointments and promotions to all Public Service positions. The reforms are in line with the National Decentralisation Policy 2013, which calls for restructuring and redefining the mandate of all service commissions.

 

Mission Statement

 

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission exists in order to appoint professionally qualified persons to the teaching service, to promote and exercise disciplinary control over them and to separate from employment.

 

Goal Statement

 

Madam Chairperson, the goal of the Teaching Service Commission is to perform its constitutional role and function diligently, efficiently and transparently, taking into account the merit, experience, fairness and justice.

 

Review of Past Performance and Achievement

 

Madam Chairperson, during the year under review, the Teaching Service Commission participated in the following national events:

 

1. conducted individual hearing cases amounting to thirty-eight from across the country;

 

1. undertook operational programmes for all the ten provinces in three sittings, which  were in Chongwe, Chilanga and Ndola Districts;

 

1. attended teacher graduation ceremonies at Malcom Moffat, Kitwe, Mufulira and Chalimbana colleges of education;

 

1. disposed of thirty-six disciplinary cases on immoral conduct and absenteeism;

 

1. interacted with Provincial Education Officers (PEOs) and District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) from Lusaka, Central, Southern, North Western, Western and Copperbelt provinces to deliberate on issues of performances of the learners, leadership and management in the education sector;

 

1. undertook  investigations on cases of immoral conduct allegations in Muchinga and Northern provinces;

 

1. sponsored seven members of staff in various training fields to enhance capacity;

 

1. participated in the induction of the newly-appointed commissioners;

 

1. created a data base that will capture information on appointment, confirmation, promotions, transfers and separations.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission faced Challenges during 2017, which are outlined below.

 

Inadequate funding

 

Madam Chairperson, the commission’s mandate is to advertise and conduct interviews once per quarter. However, this was not possible due to inadequate funding. In addition, the commission was unable to settle outstanding personnel related arrears which include leave, terminal benefits and settling in allowances.

 

Policy Direction in line with the Seventh National Development Plan

 

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission falls under the development outcome tool of the Seventh National Development Plant (7NDP), in line with improved education and skills development.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Laughter

 

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, the commission will contribute to the improvement of quality education. It will also improve the low performance results through performance, teacher training, recruitment and deployment improvement.

 

Madam, following the amendment of the Constitution, the commission has been given the mandate to recruit qualified teachers for the public sector. In addition, it also has the mandate to deploy staff in the teaching service. In carrying out these functions, the commission will ensure equity and inclusiveness.

 

Key issues to be addressed from 2018 to 2020

 

Madam Chairperson, the commission would like to see a committed, motivated and disciplined teaching service. In achieving this, the Teaching Service Commission will focus on the following:

 

1. working with Management Development division in the implementation of the 2018/2020 Teaching Service Commission Strategic Plan, formulation of Human immuno-deficiency virus/acquired immuno-deficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS) workplace policy and develop job descriptions of commission staff in alignment with the new structure following the change in mandate;

 

1. ensuring that there is equity and fairness in the issues of recruitments, appointments and promotions at all levels;

 

1. carrying out human resources orientation programmes, in line with the launched human resources reforms;

 

1. monitoring and evaluating compliance of human resource reforms, code of ethics, human resource management principles and values; and

 

1.  building capacity of members of staff by sponsoring them in various training fields.

 

Overall impact on the policy direction

 

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission, in line with its policy direction and the 7NDP will focus on accelerating development efforts towards the Vision 2030 without leaving anyone behind. This will entail enhancing access to quality, equitable and inclusive education through a motivated, committed and disciplined teaching service, taking into account the merit, experience, fairness and justice.

 

Anticipated Challenge

 

Inadequate Staffing

 

Madam Chairperson, following the broadened mandate and the launch of human resources reforms, the commission still faces structural challenges in key positions in order to effectively execute added functions and responsibilities. It is our sincere hope that the Treasury authority will be granted in 2018.

 

Recommendation

 

In line with the Teaching Service Commission’s core business and the change in mandate, the commission intends to take a more active role in insuring adherence to standards, human resource management policy, disciplinary control and appeals.

 

In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, you may wish to note that it is essential for the commission to carry out the above activities in its quest to achieve effective service delivery in the teaching service, which happens to be the largest workforce in the nation. Education remains the major concern of the nation at large and the Teaching Service Commission will endeavour to improve standards in the education sector and ensure that all the above programmes are in accordance with Government policies. I want to urge all hon. Members of Parliament to support the budget for the Teaching Service Commission.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Her Honour the Vice-President for that policy statement. The Teaching Service Commission is very important to this nation. The efficiency and effectiveness that Her Honour the Vice-President spoke about can never be over emphasised. However, I would also want to make some observations on the Teaching Service Commission.

 

Madam Chairperson, I will start with recruitment. I want to register my disappointment, firstly, on the teaching service, …

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Ms Mwashingwele: … especially when you find that over 500 teachers do not actually qualify to teach our children. One would wonder how these teachers passed through the Teaching Service Commission and were deployed in our schools. I remember when I became a teacher, the first point of checking my qualification was when I entered teacher training. In the first year of training, the Teaching Service Commission took interest in all the colleges to find out if teachers were qualified to go out into schools. It is very embarrassing for a country like Zambia to find that 500 teachers, some of whom have become administrators in schools, do not qualify to be teachers. This shows that the commission has not been doing what it is supposed to do or was initially meant to do.

 

I would imagine ...

 

Mr Ngulube: Do you blame the Government for someone’s forgery?

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Hearing a lawyer commenting on such an issue makes me feel even more embarrassed because lawyers have a legal understanding of these issues.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Madam Chairperson, you will find that the issue of unqualified teachers has also affected the quality of education our children whom they qualify. We have had too many examination leakages in our schools because of the unqualified teachers who are not comfortable with their performance. You will find that examination leakages in schools have also watered down the qualifications of Grade 7s, 9s and 12s. This, in the final analysis, has affected the quality of doctors, lawyers like Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, …

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Ms Mwashingwele: You will also find …

 

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: Ms Mwashingwele, please, withdraw the statement that you have just made.

 

Laughter

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. I withdraw the statement.

 

 Madam Chairperson, I would also want to mention…

 

Mr Ngulube: Point of order!

 

Ms Mwashingwele: … the issue of K521 that everyone who is applying as a teacher is subjected to pay. How does a teacher who has just qualified from teacher training be asked to pay such an amount? The commission knows that it may only need 2,000 teachers at a given time, yet it knows that we have over 20,000 teachers across the country who can apply. Is the payment of the K521 a fundraising venture? I thought the Teaching Service Commission would be able to control the licensing institution so that our teachers are protected. It will be prudent that those who are recruited into the system are the ones made to pay the K521 and not everyone who applies to teach. What happens if they are not accepted?

 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Madam Chairperson, we feel that even the little they have is being taken away from them before they actually start work. I thought the commission would seriously look into this matter seriously.

 

Madam, let me also talk about interviews that were once conducted. Currently, there is a weakness in the recruitment of new teachers. I tend to feel the stringent measures that were in place then have been weakened because of the new institute. There seems to be an overlap of who is supposed to do what. Due to that, you will find that a Zambian teacher sometimes is found in a very difficult situation since he or she does not know who to report to. Is it the licensing institute or the Teaching Service Commission? I think the teacher needs to be protected. The Teaching Service Commission has the mandate to see to it that the fairness and merit that Her Honour the Vice-President spoke about, is actually accorded to all teachers.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would also want to urge the Teaching Service Commission to look at how the distribution of teachers is done across the country.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Madam Chairperson, I specifically want to look at rural schools. You would find that the establishment of a rural school, under the Teaching Service Commission, for example, a school like Kalala, would have thirty teachers, but practically on the ground only have fifteen teachers.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Madam Chairperson, we want the Teaching Service Commission to seriously look into this in 2018. Schools in Katuba Constituency, and I am sure even in places like Kanchibiya, Kaputa, Kaoma and everywhere else, are complaining because you find that teachers are not in schools because they have all shifted back to urban areas. The teachers who have gone back to urban areas even receive Rural Hardship Allowance meanwhile they are teaching at Kabulonga Girls. This deprives our teachers in rural areas. Our children in rural areas do not have adequate human resource because teachers are using the establishment in rural areas while they are in urban areas. I feel that the Teaching Service Commission should look into this matter. We need an equal balance of human resource so that we share the Zambian cake equally when it comes to qualified teachers.

 

Madam Chairperson, having said that, I would also want to talk about the quarterly interviews that Her Honour the Vice-President talked about. On paper, these interviews could be there, but they are not happening in practise. When we look at next year’s budget for the Teaching Service Commission, we feel that it is a requirement for it to go round the country because the quality of the teacher depends on the commission. When it comes to discipline, most teachers go scot-free because they know that the Teaching Service Commission is not as strict as it initially was. The quality of the teacher also affects the results of his or her class.

 

Madam Chairperson, let us look at the examinations. The quality of a teacher affects the examination which, in turn, affects the child. When Her Honour the Vice-President talks about fairness to the child, this only comes about when he or she finally seats to be assessed through an examination. Since there is so much cheating, for a lack of a better term, through examination leakages that take place every year, it is not always the best child who comes out best, but the one who has access to the examination paper before it is written. Maybe, this year, we are lucky that we have not had incidents of examination leakages yet since all the schools across the country have started examining our children.

 

Madam Chairperson, this happens because of the quality of teachers and the Teaching Service Commission should put its foot down. We need a system that can clamp down leakages so that our colleges, universities and schools can, once again, have a good reputation. If this system is not put in place, even the Examination Council of Zambia (ECZ) will be affected.

 

Madam Chairperson, Her Honour the Vice-President may be aware that the University of Zambia’s (UNZA) standing has gone two notches down because of the quality of students being produced at the institution. Once before, as a country, we were very reputable and wherever a former UNZA student went, he or she stood the test of time because we had a grounded Teaching Service Commission. Much as I support its budget and, maybe, it could have been more if the Government had funds, there is a need for us to go back to the days it really counted for something. Previously, when we stood as teachers and spoke about the Teaching Service Commission, we knew that there was discipline, fairness and good promotion of the aspect of effectiveness.

 

With those words, Madam Chairperson, I am very grateful.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima: Wisdom!

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Chairperson, I support the budget for the Teaching Service Commission. In doing so, I would like to make a few comments. Firstly, I would like to indicate that I will take the previous remarks as my own so that we can save on time.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is generally understood that charity begins at home. The development of a child from adolescence to adulthood is a tough job that requires a lot of concentration and commitment. Therefore, it goes without saying that the Teaching Service Commission is a very important factor in the development of a child and consequently, a nation. The question that comes to my mind when we talk about the Teaching Service Commission is whether the quality of a graduate today is equal that of a graduate of twenty years ago. The answer is, obviously, no because the latter will be better than the former. This is because the Teaching Service Commission has been overwhelmed by the population. In the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, it superintended over very few teachers. I do not know how many teachers we have in Zambia or if the commission itself actually knows the exact number of teachers we have because of excess demand.

 

Madam Chairperson, in early 2000, a programme called the Academic Production Unit (APU) was introduced to respond to the lack of classroom space for children. Therefore, the teachers would have double shifts, one for private enterprise and the other for the Ministry of Education or Government. There were advantages and disadvantages of the APU and subsequent Governments that came into power decided to abolish it. When the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came into power in 2011, we had the basic education system, and upon arrival, it decided to shift policy by re-introducing Grade 1 to 7 and Grade 8 to 12. It has been a confusing period and six years down the line, this policy shift has not been fully actualised. This means that some schools go up to Grades 7 or 9 and others from Grades 1 to 12.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission comprises of only a handful of people and they superintend over many teachers whose number I do not even know and I doubt if they know too. In view of the proliferation of schools that have responded to the lack of available Government space, we now have private and religious education. The question that then begs an answer is whether the commission is able to fully superintend over all these schools and to check on the challenges that are faced in delivering the service of teaching.

 

Madam Chairperson, the teacher is not exempt from financial and economic difficulties and, more often than not, he or she will find extra things to do in order to make ends meet and as such, not dedicate his or her life to the development of a child. The issue of the teacher-pupil ratio does not make it any better as it worsens things. A teacher who runs a kantemba or small store to make ends meet will, obviously, not have enough time to make the lesson plan at the end of the day.

Madam Chairperson, in the 1970s when I was a young boy, I recall my parents, who were teachers, going to the then National In-service Teacher’s College (NISTCOL), which is now Chalimbana University, for in-service training and appraisal. I doubt if that happens anymore because there are so many teachers and the commission cannot track the challenges that they face, namely moral behaviour.

 

Madam Chairperson, a long time ago before we had lawyers and accountants because there was little to account for and less crime, the teacher was the role model of society. The question that now rebounds is if the quality of one who graduated then and now is the same and the answer is no. It goes without saying that the quality of the teacher then cannot be equated to now because the latter will, obviously, stand out. One can tell from the conduct of some senior citizens that they were once teachers because of their upright moral standing and communication skills.

 

Madam Chairperson, today, the commission finds difficulties with the behaviour of teachers because some of them molest children. We always read or hear on television about a teacher having had carnal knowledge with pupils and, obviously, the pupil may engage in such activities in exchange for a pass. Similarly, the policemen of today are different from those of the olden days. Nowadays, some teachers spend nights in the club and get drank belegede, a term which means drunk beyond any sense, yet stands before a classroom and writes on the board the following morning reeking of alcohol.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission does not have what it takes to detect all those challenges. Unlike in the past, we now have challenges of illicit drugs in schools today. The schools have become fertile ground for drug trade and abuse. Parents are also not helping the situation because they are too busy trying to make ends meet in this bad economy. They, therefore, do not help their children with homework and also see how their children are doing in school, but only get surprised that the child ends up failing at the end of the day. Today, if you go to the University of Zambia (UNZA), you will find that children who have completed Grade 12 with flying colours are failing to cope. As a result, when moving from first year going into second year, there is an avalanche of failures, who are offloaded on to the streets. The problem is that the superintending body may not be masculine enough to cover the whole country, which is very big.

 

So, Madam Chairperson, I would like to suggest that going forward, Her Honour the Vice-President considers decentralising the commission to a point of having a team in each district. That will help to curb indecencies in schools. Today, you will not be surprised to see teachers sagging their trousers. If I had the capacity, I would have demonstrated what I am saying. This is where a man ties his belt around his bottom instead of the waist as he walks, ...

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, is that what you would have liked to demonstrate?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I said that I do not have what it takes to demonstrate, but I wish I could. That way, you would actually see what I am talking about. I do not know if that is how they are made. However, the commission has a Code of Ethics, which guides teachers. This is where I am coming from. During my days, I never saw a teacher going to class wearing a T-shirt, not even a golf T-shirt. They would normally go to class wearing a neck tie, just as I am dressed. After getting to class, they would take off their jackets and then get to the black board. Today, a teacher can go to class in a T-shirt or muscle shirt or a shirt that is not buttoned all the way up to the diaphragm. All these are things that the commission should monitor and correct, but it does not have what it takes. If we do not endeavour to put more money where our mouths are, then, it goes without saying that we will continue producing half-baked educated citizens.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am sure that there is a teaching service commission in Rwanda. We can take a leaf from there and learn how that country has managed to straighten up its education system. I think that all sectors speak to each other. The commission sits right at the centre of how teachers must work with pupils while the Government is there to ensure that it provides a conducive platform for the commission to work without prejudices.

 

Madam Chairperson, finally, in recent times, we have seen what I would call victimisation of teachers. I am speaking from a point of authority where teachers who are perceived to belong or sympathise with a certain political party are victimised. Sympathisers will always be there. The only thing that is constant in our lives is change. The same teachers who used to sing the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) song before the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power later sang the PF song, at least, outwardly. This is where the water melon concept was coined from, if you know what I am talking about.

 

Madam Chairperson, teachers must be allowed to operate away from the political environment because they teach children who belong to families with different political affiliation. There is a need for students not to be disturbed. In this country, at the moment, what happens is that as a teacher gets absorbed in a particular community, the children start to understand him or her and they start to blend with the children in terms of knowledge imparting. A whistleblower, then, comes to say, “This teacher is a member of the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD).” At this point, the authorities move the teacher from Chongwe to Petauke. The period of settling down is not one month. It takes a long time, especially in the midst of the housing deficit for teachers. Some teachers find themselves living in a hut. How, then, does the commission appraise, on equal footing, a teacher who lives in an electrified house and one who is of no fixed abode?

 

Madam Chairperson, I think that the commission should hear us out and understand that it is not necessary to victimise people by shifting them back and forth because the world is round, and what goes around comes around. Tomorrow, the Government may change and when that happens, commissioners will run to the people who will take up office then, and that is not necessary. The commission should just do its work professionally. Transfer the teachers when it is necessary. Do not look at the face and say this particular teacher was singing a PF song and so, they must be sent to this school.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me give an example of a case in Ndola town. Even in the face of the prescription that civil servants and teachers should not belong to political groupings or hold political office, we have a case where a teacher is a PF official. This teacher is not just a branch official, but a district official who holds PF meetings. How is it expected that such a teacher can pass children from families affiliated to parties such as the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD), the National Restoration Party (NAREP) or the mighty United Party for National Development (UPND)?

 

Hon. Government Member interjected.

 

Mr Nkombo: The answer is that empty tins make a lot of noise.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: I still have many hon. Members indicating to speak, but due to time constraint, I will allow one more male and a female hon. Member to debate.

 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Madam Chairperson, indeed, the Teaching Service Commission plays a very important role in the education of the country. Unfortunately, especially for us coming from rural areas, I can tell Her Honour the Vice-President and the hon. Minister of General Education that the education system has become dysfunctional. I know that it is dysfunctional because we have children getting to Grade 9 and Grade 12 who are not able to write letters or read. These are things that we used to do by the time we were reaching Grade 7 way back in the 1960s. This is how bad it has become. If it continues this way, I can tell you that even the Seventh National Development Plan (7NDP) is going nowhere. This is because for the Government to implement a development plan, it needs human resources, and not just raw human resources, but those that have been refined, trained and are knowledgeable. This is where the commission comes in

 

Madam Chairperson, there are so many issues that affect the quality of education in rural areas today. However, today, I want to focus on the issue of human resource management, which is the mandate of the commission. In a place like Liuwa, you will reach so many schools that run from Grade 1 to Grade 9. When you ask how many teachers the school has, you are told that the entire school has three or four teachers teaching all those grades. When I was in primary school, each class had its own teacher. Now, a school in the rural area has three or four teachers teaching Grade 1 to Grade 9 classes, then, you know right from the beginning that these children have no chance. Their future has been destroyed. Consequently, the country’s human resource has been destroyed.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: So, teachers are a necessity.

 

I think that if you are faced with so many problems and you cannot solve all of them, priority should be to ensure that you have enough motivated teachers who can impart some knowledge to the children. 

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Why are there few teachers? Some colleagues spoke about that. Firstly, Madam Chairperson, it is that discipline has broken down. If you go to urban or peri-urban schools, you will find many teachers. Lusaka is overflowing with teachers while out there, in the rural areas, there are no teachers. Again, the hon. Minister of General Education recruits teachers to rural areas, yet they only stay in these areas for three or four months before asking to be transferred.

 

Madam, I want to make a proposal on how to solve this problem of teachers not staying in rural areas. I think that the answer lays in the decentralisation that Her Honour the Vice-President talked about. I am not talking about devolution where provinces or districts can hire teachers. That is not decentralisation. I am talking about serious decentralisation where every school in the country is allocated an amount to cater for its establishment, be it five, seven or nine teachers. If any teacher decides to leave the school, he or she must automatically lose the allocation given to School X.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: If the teacher wants to go to Ndola, Kitwe, Luanshya or Mufulira, the school he or she picks should have a budget line for him or her.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: If the school in Luanshya or Kitwe already has enough teachers, it should let the teachers seeking employment know that it only has so much money and, if they insist to join, they should not be paid. This would mean that if teachers run away from a school in the rural area, there is the option to recruit because money is there and the school administration is in-charge. If no one is willing to come to the school, we should have the freedom to hire untrained teachers from the local community. 

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: What is the point of having children in class with no teachers? If there are only three teachers for Grades 1 to 9, it means that some classes have no teachers. So, we are actually better of using money that we have to hire untrained teachers. The concept of untrained teachers is not anything new. In the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, there were not always enough teachers. However, when that was the case, the local adults looked around for smart school leavers to take up classes.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: While they were waiting to go to college, they would be given teaching jobs.

 

Mr Muchima: Yes!

 

Dr Musokotwane:  Madam, I would like to imagine that some of the people sitting in this House, at the moment, are products of untrained teachers.

 

Mr Muchima: Yes. Correct.

 

Dr Musokotwane: Some of the teachers who taught me were untrained teachers but, at least, I had someone teach me. So, I insist that there be full decentralisation. Money should go to schools so that they can hire their own teachers.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: This is important from another point of view. When you go to some of these schools, discipline has broken down.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam, Head teachers are not able to maintain discipline. The District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) are not able to maintain discipline, particularly so that this Government has politicised everything, including teachers. If a teacher who misbehaves is deemed to be a member of the Patriotic Front (PF), the head teacher is helpless.

 

Mr Muchima: Shame!

 

Dr Musokotwane: He cannot do anything to discipline this teacher.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

Dr Musokotwane: So, decentralisation should also involve ensuring that the local community is involved …

 

Mr Muchima: Administration!

 

Dr Musokotwane: … in the administration of the teachers.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: The local community must have a say when a teacher, for example, spends more time drinking than teaching.

 

Mr Muchima: Yes!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, if the headmaster protects the teacher, the community must come in to say that their money is not for drunkards, but for proper teachers. So, it is important that we decentralise in this manner.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: The other reason for decentralisation is that today, there are so many community schools around the country partly because the Government has lost touch with reality on the ground.

 

In Liuwa, Madam Chairperson, the nearest public school is about 12 km away from the nearest village. If a child goes to a school in the east, he or she has to walk 12 km. If a child goes to a school in the west, he or she has to walk 12 km. In this case, the community has agreed that children aged six, seven or eight years should not walk these long distances every day and have come up with the idea of building a community school. Unfortunately, because they are community schools, the Government does not want to pay the teachers. 

 

Madam Chairperson, can you imagine children being disadvantaged because the nearest school is so far away? In the meantime, the Government is asking the locals to hire a community teacher, contribute monies, as poor as they are, to pay him. This is very shocking. I would argue and say that if there is anyone who needs to pay teachers, it is the community here in urban areas. Perhaps, people in Woodlands or Chilenje can contribute monies to pay teachers. At least, they have higher capacity to pay community teachers because they have some money. Can you, with a clear conscience, ask the villagers out there in the villages, who hardly ever have money in their pockets, to pay a teacher? It does not make sense.

 

Madam Chairperson, if we decentralise, communities would be in a position to have a pool of money that they can use to build community schools where public schools are so far. There would be no discrimination when it comes to paying teachers in community schools because they also understand issues.

 

So, Madam Chairperson, as I end, let me say that unless we deal with this issue of education, the future of this country is bleak. We will not have artisans, technicians or agricultural experts. The Teaching Service Commission is very critical in ensuring that these children get the education that they deserve.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Madam Chairperson, indeed, I would like to add to the debate the concerns from Keembe Parliamentary Constituency in particular on what is happening in the Teaching Service Commission.

 

Madam, before I go further, I would want to adopt as mine most of the views that many of colleagues have already raised on how critical the commission is to this country. Nelson Mandela once said:

 

   “The true character of a society is revealed in how it treats its children.”

 

Madam, I think Zambia can only showcase how well-equipped it will be for the future by the quality of education of its children. So, it is critical for the commission to really review its operations and it is for this reason that hon. Members of Parliament are speaking on behalf of the teachers, especially those from the rural areas.

 

Madam, although I know that some of my views may sound repetitive, but I want to state that just yesterday, I visited about three schools in Keembe Constituency, namely Kafululu, Mashikili and Nanshwinsa schools. These schools are highly populated. For example, at Kafululu School, there are almost 2,000 pupils against thirty-two teachers, which was even than other schools. They were surprised to hear me say that they were in a better place, but they wanted more. At Mashikili School, the pupils are over 5,000, but only seven teachers are teaching at this school.

 

Ms Mwashingwele: Shame!

 

Ms Kasune: As many of us know, Keembe is one of the constituencies, which is not far from Lusaka, but yet very deprived of teaching staff.

 

Madam, Mashikili School has been upgraded to Grade 9. Unfortunately, all the seven teachers at the school can only teach up to primary level. I would like to implore the Teaching Service Commission to look into the inside of its operation. As much as we appreciate the upgrading of the schools, it is not matching with the teachers who are being deployed to the schools. Therefore, we keep on crying and advocating for the Teaching Service Commission to increase the number of teachers who are posted to rural areas. The teacher/pupil ratio is saddening, especially in the rural areas.  I would like to appeal to Her Honour the Vice-President to look into this issue because it needs urgent attention.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kasune: Madam Chairperson, the second point, which I would like to bring out, is the issue on which Hon. Mwashingwele has already made reference to. This is the matter of how many teachers deployed to rural areas.

 

Madam, Katuba and Keembe Parliamentary constituencies fall under Chibombo District. So, how do we explain the allocation of only fifty teachers to the two constituencies, which are highly populated, during a cycle of teacher recruitment? This is unacceptable.

 

Madam Chairperson, during the Government under Dr Mwanawasa, SC., there was a time Chibombo District was given about 300 teachers in one year. So, when we compare the allocation of 300 teachers to fifty teachers for the two constituencies, it is a drop in the ocean. Really, we need to increase on the teacher/pupil ratio.

 

Madam, the issue of discipline, which has already been mentioned, is another concern. There could be many cases out there, but I want to cite an example of a situation in Kazungula District where a teacher has been undergoing disciplinary action for eight years. This teacher has continued to draw a salary and is still staying in a Government house. This is affecting the reflection of teachers that are needed in an area. I believe these are the issues that the Teaching Service Commission has to work on in collaboration with the Ministry of General Education and head teachers. Sometimes, I think, the Ministry of General Education is left on its own because there is a disconnect between the Teaching Service Commission and the Ministry of General Education, hence our plea that disciplinary cases involving teachers who are found wanting be disposed of timely. This would enable others who need to takeover to do so for the benefit of pupils in schools.   

 

Madam Chairperson, another issue that I want to add onto, which I think has already been talked about, is that of teachers who have been transferred still drawing salaries from the schools where they were previously deployed. As a result, this creates a challenge for the offices of the Provincial Education Officers (PEOs) and District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) because their payroll reflects many teachers when, in fact, there are very few teachers in the schools.

 

Madam, there is also the gap that is filled in by the initiative of communities which, out of their desperation for children to access education, build schools, which Hon. Musokotwane touched on. However, most community schools are ill run. First of all, some pupils learn under grass thatched structures, in many cases there is no running water and teachers are ill trained in community schools.

 

Therefore, Madam Chairperson, if it is part of Government policy to allow for the construction of community schools in its strive to achieve access to education for all, there is a need for introspection so that, maybe, we could include trained teachers in community schools as well so that we close that gap. At the end of the day, the most critical stages of education are actually early and primary education. For one to be good in high school or at university level, it all depends on the quality of education he or she got before first grade to seventh grade. However, it seems, as a country, we are neglecting the very early years of our learning system.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasune: Madam Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the Vice-President that it is very critical that this issue is addressed if Zambia is really to have a better human resource. Many of us are here because of education. We would not be hon. Members of Parliament if we did not have the right education or qualifications, hence we need to do better for the generations that are coming behind us.

 

Madam, I also want to touch on giving thought to the issue of housing for teachers. I know that despite the recruitment of teachers being done by the Ministry of General Education, the accommodation aspect is under the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development. Teachers are really suffering and in some cases, you find that they are walking 15 km from a village in which they are renting and are expected to be on time for classes.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasune: That is a fact. I am one of those hon. Members of Parliament who are ever on the ground and some of the information I am telling you was gathered yesterday. So, you will do well to listen to me. We are not here to play games. We are here to provide checks and balances.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasune: Therefore, I think we should be appreciated. The issue of politicking around education has to stop. There are some of us hon. Members of Parliament who have connections with people who can help us build schools. However, many are the times we are told we cannot visit a particular school because you are an hon. Member of Parliament who belongs to the Opposition. Why should that be the case?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasune: Madam Chairperson, that is not right because when we bring donors or people to help us build up, for example, 1 x 3 classroom blocks or dormitories, we are actually helping the Government of the day and our children. So, we do not see why we should politick when it comes to education. I think those who have ears have to take this seriously because at the end of the day, without education …

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, everyone here has ears. All the hon. Members have ears. Please, proceed.

 

Mr Livune: Some are bewitched mama!

 

Ms Kasune: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. It really hurts to see that our education system is sometimes not really given the attention that it needs. This is why we are saying that even the funding for the Teaching Service Commission has to be really looked into. I think there are some ministries which do not deserve the money they are given at times. I would want to argue that the Teaching Service Commission is one of those institutions that should be allocated funds that reflect what we are trying to achieve as a country.

Madam Chairperson, I will not belabour more points because a lot of them, such as teachers using rural areas as a place of entry and then leaving within a few months, have already been made reference to.

 

With those few remarks, I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Ms Chalikosa): Madam Chairperson, I will make comments in response to the various issues raised, not in any particular order.

 

Madam, on recruitment, the measure taken to register all teachers has resulted in identifying the unqualified teachers. So, I think the Patriotic Front (PF) Government should be commended for this exercise ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chalikosa: ... that will precisely address the issue of the lack of quality education for our children.

 

Madam, as for the fees for registration of teachers, it is now in the Act that one has to register and pay before practicing. That is why everyone has to pay, and not just those who are employed.

 

Madam Chairperson, on teacher deployment, a deliberate policy is being put in place to look at issues of deployment. Teachers are being reminded that they sign an agreement to serve anywhere in the country. There will be strengthening and monitoring of teacher mobility in order to address the distribution of teachers where they are required.

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Gary Nkombo wanted to know how many teachers there are in the country. There are 105,080 teachers employed in the public sector. 

 

The Teaching Service Commission works closely with the Ministry of General Education and only provides oversight. I think in the debates, there was a bit of confusion in the mandate of the Ministry of Education as opposed to that of the Teaching Service Commission.

 

The teacher-pupil ratio is being looked at. The ideal is one teacher to forty-three pupils at primary level and one to thirty-nine pupils at secondary level. This is a continuous process and is being addressed.

 

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of the dress code, there is a Code of Ethics that has been developed and will soon be disseminated to the teaching service.

 

Madam Chairperson, on the issue of immoral conduct, the Commission has gone countrywide sensitising and reminding teachers on the disciplinary code, and handling offences. Those found wanting have since been dismissed. The delay in disposal of certain cases is due to the inadequate human resource capacity in the provinces and districts. Decentralisation will reduce delays and address this issue.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is unfortunate that some people think that the teaching service is being politicised. The PF believes that this is not a partisan issue because it affects the future of our children. Some of the comments made by some hon. Members of Parliament are absolutely unwarranted, ...

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Ms Chalikosa: ... such as the reference to the teacher in Ndola. I do not think any child will be victimised because of his or her parents having political affiliation to a party other than the Ruling Party.

 

Madam, on housing for teachers in community schools, this issue will be addressed by the line ministry, which is the Ministry of General Education.

 

With those few words, I thank you, Madam.

 

VOTE 09/01 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – Headquarters – K9,675,940,).

 

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 19/01 – (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit – Headquarters – K54,487,820).

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

(MR SPEAKER in the Chair)

 

(Progress reported)

 

_______

 

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 1^st November, 2017.