Thursday, 23^rd November, 2017

 

The House met at 1430 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

_________

 

QUESTION FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

NULLIFICATION OF THE NOVEMBER/DECEMBER, 2017 GENERAL NURSING COUNCIL OF ZAMBIA EXAMINATIONS

 

88. Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Health:

 

1. why the November/December, 2017 General Nursing Council of Zambia (GNCZ) Examinations were nullified;

 

1. what the total number of nursing and midwifery students affected by the nullification was;

 

1. what measures the Government was taking to avoid the disruption of the academic calendar following the nullification of the examinations; and

 

1. what measures the Government was taking to curb examination malpractices in the health sector.

 

The Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the nullification of the November/December, 2017 General Nursing Council Examinations has been necessitated by evidence of gross examinations malpractice and leakage which has been unearthed by the GNCZ through its rigorous implementation of quality assurance processes. The GNCZ had to exercise its due responsibility and invoke provisions under the Nurses and Midwives Act 31 of 1997, to nullify the November/December, 2017, Papers I, II, III, IV, V and VI qualifying GNCZ theory examinations for Registered Nurses (RN) and Pre-Service Registered Nurse Midwives (RNM), which had started on Monday, 13^th November, 2017, and were scheduled to end on Monday 20^th November, 2017.

 

Sir, the House may wish to note that the profession of nursing has held a long and cherished position in Zambia, and Zambian nurses are valued all over the world for their integrity and professionalism. The GNCZ is mandated by law to promote patient safety, protect members of the general public from unsafe nursing practices and to uphold the quality, integrity and professionalism among all members, and those who aspire to be members of the nursing profession. It is, therefore, right and proper that the examinations have been nullified in order to preserve patient safety, aspire for quality health service delivery and maintain integrity.

 

Mr Speaker, all thirty colleges of nursing and midwifery, both private and public, with eligible students for the RN and RNM examinations throughout the country have been affected by the nullification of the said theory examinations. The total number of eligible students affected is 1,797. However, I wish to inform the House that all practical examinations for eligible students in the thirty colleges countrywide are proceeding as originally scheduled as they are not affected by the said leakage.

 

Sir, the nullified examinations have been replaced by a complete new set of examinations scheduled to start on 11^th December, 2017, and end on 18^th December, 2017. The new dates for writing the GNCZ theory qualifying examinations fall within the prescribed RN and RNM curriculum implementation period and, therefore, there is no extension to the final academic year for eligible students.I wish to take this opportunity to assure the students, their parents and sponsors that the Government has already taken every precaution to ensure that all eligible nursing and midwifery examination candidates are not unnecessarily inconvenienced. They will not be required to pay any extra costs.

 

Mr Speaker, some of the measures that the Government will take to curb possible malpractices will be stated after the investigations being carried out are concluded. However, the following measures are in place and will be reinforced to ensure that examination leakages do not occur ever again:

 

1. the premises where the final examination papers are prepared is always a restricted area and only authorised staff  are allowed access to it and is kept locked and guarded twenty-four/seven;

 

1. the number of staff who are authorised to handle final examination papers is limited;

 

1. the passwords for the computers that are used for preparing examination papers are protected;

 

1. the examination papers are always sealed after processing and stored in a very secure place; and

 

1. inspection of the examination papers is always done at the point of collecting and opening to ensure that they are intact.

 

Furthermore, new measures under the Information and Communications Technology (ICT) Section shall be put in place in order to improve security.

 

Sir, I wish to inform the House and the nation that investigations into the matter have been instituted, and perpetrators, when found, will be visited by the law. This is in line with the Zambian laws and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government’s policy of zero tolerance to examination leakages for all categories of health care providers.

Mr Speaker, I must emphasise that the Government will not tolerate any degree of examination leakage in the health sector as this hinges on matters of life and death. Further, the Government through the Ministry of Health shall ensure that the GNCZ takes all necessary steps to prevent similar occurrences in future.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister and I know that the Government has an ambitious programme of getting the labour force in the health sector especially to fill up the 650 health post that the Government intends to rollout. With these current happenings, is this programme going to affect the source of labour force and get delayed due to this examination nullification.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier on, the academic calendar remains unchanged because the new examination dates still lie within the academic calendar for registered nursing and registered nurse midwifery programmes. Therefore, the new dates set are within the academic calendar and will not result in the delay in graduating the new work force. Therefore, Government’s programme on human capital development will not be affected.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister at what point the General Nursing Council of Zambia (GNCZ) discovered that there was a leakage. Obviously, there must have been one or two people that were found with the leakage. May I know what action has been taken against these individuals, if there are any?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan for that progressive question. The leakage was discovered through a whatsApp message where students were exchanging whatsApp messages. A whistle blower sent a whatsApp message to one of the staff at the General Nursing Council of Zambia (GNCZ) that the paper had been leaked and sent the questions. Therefore, what was leaked was a soft copy. Immediately that was discovered, we suspended the examinations. The discovery was based on a whistle blower’s information.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: Where any individuals particularly identified?

 

Dr Chilufya: No, Mr Speaker, the whistle blower was not even a nurse student. The whistle blower was just alerting one of the staff at GNCZ that a leaked examination paper was in circulation. This is what alerted the inspectors who compared what was circulating with what was actually in the examination paper. They realised that it was the same. That is why the investigation has involved Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) and the police until we get to the bottom of the case.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for his elaborate answer, but owing to his explanation, does his ministry consider in the future to think of introducing online examinations for the theory part of the examinations to avoid future leakages?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the exam was leaked through a soft copy. Therefore, we know that there was some cyber crime committed. We may not state immediately, if that is the route we will take, but we will be informed by the findings of the investigations.

 

With regard to online examinations, Mr Speaker, there are various e-platforms where we do online examinations in the health sector. As we introduce new innovative ways of training nurses including e-learning, we will definitely consider that. However, it is not something novel to the training of health workers.

 

Thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that Zambia Information and Communications Authority (ZICTA) and the police have been engaged to assist to get the culprits to book. What I know, Sir, is that whatsApp messages are encrypted meaning that to get an access code is not the easiest of things to do. My substantive question Sir is that, the hon. Minister has found out about this examination malpractice now, and this is what has occasioned the nullification of the examination. In the past years, what were the possibilities that there had been these leakages and have gone to the users manually, thereby compromising the quality of Zambia Enrolled Nurses and Registered Nurses graduates that we channel out from the institutions of learning?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central for that question. First of all, I want to emphasise the fact that these exams are prepared by experts seated in a particular room using computers. I am sure there should have been a point at which the soft copy moved from that environment. Therefore, we are not going to search necessarily as to who sent a whatsApp message to who, but we want to find out what point the soft copy left the host computer and that is the basis of the investigations.

 

Secondly, there have been stringent measures put in place that I alluded to earlier to ensure that the integrity of the exams is protected. Going by the quality of nurses that we have on the market today, we have no doubt that we have been training nurses well and that deserving students have been qualifying. Therefore, we have had stringent measures and that is why we strongly believe that is cyber crime is novel, must be investigated and quickly carteled.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, 1,000 affected students is quite a large number and I appreciate the measures that are being taken by the ministry. However, I want to find out while the investigations are going on, what penalties are available for those who may be found wanting and are part and parcel of these leakages that took place.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier on, we do not have any information at the moment of students who were caught cheating. At the moment, we are looking at the source of the leak. We are looking at the source where the exams were being prepared. However, if there are cases of cheating amongst students and they are caught, penalties exist and a student may be disqualified completely from sitting for that exam or even expelled from the school of nursing.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Zulu (Luangeni): Mr Speaker, exam malpractices have haunted the Ministry of General and Higher Education for a very long time now. It is unfortunate now that it has also moved to the Ministry of Health involving professional people and so, we are really at risk as a country. How comfortable is the hon. Minister with the measures that he has put in place to ensure that this does not happen again?

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, we believe that the measures that have been put in place are stringent. However, like I said earlier on, we will be informed by the findings of the investigations.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, it seems it has become fashionable now for people to train nurses and there are a lot of colleges claiming to train doctors too. I am aware that under the 2009 Health Professions Council of Zambia Act, the ministry is supposed to conduct regular inspections as well as ensuring that the standard of teaching that these health professional are going through, meets the criteria that is acceptable at international standards.

 

I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the examinations that were leaked were international examinations or there were local examinations. I also want to find out whether the students, who were supposed to write the same examination, were only from the private colleges and universities or they also included the public institutions.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, training of health workers is extremely important, and not only the numbers, but also the quality. Yes, the Government has mandated the General Nursing Council of Zambia (GNCZ) to regulate training, practice and licensing of nurses. Equally, the Health Professional Council of Zambia (HPCZ) equally regulates doctors and other paramedics.

 

Sir, it is important to note the GNCZ sets the examination according the international standard. Although this was a local examination, all the nursing schools either public or private undergo the same examination. Before a nursing or a medical school is accredited to undertake training, they have to meet certain criteria. However, I must state that I have commissioned the H PCZ and the GNZ to carry out a thorough audit of all the training institutions, who are training health workers to ensure that adherence to the minimum standards is ensured to enable the Government protect patients or the public against ill-trained health workers. Therefore, I want to assure the House that apart from accrediting the health training institutions, the Government also carry our regular checks like the audit will just commissioned that will ensure that compliance is enhanced.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, it is the examining body considering putting premium on the practical examinations particularly, the objective structured clinical examination (OSCE) and viva voce.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the theory examination and the practical examination do not weigh the same. Therefore, we place premium on the practical examinations as this is extremely important. We have already introduced OSCE, hence, the reason we have not even cancelled the practical examinations. So, we have already introduced the OSCE extermination and this weighs much more the practical version.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, according to the whistle blower, it is the soft copy which had leaked information. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how many colleges out of the thirty were actually involved in the malpractice.

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, by nullifying the examination for all the thirty colleges, the General Nursing Council of Zambia (GNCZ) acted in the interest of the professionals and that of the public. Therefore, the number of students involved is 1,771. We had to ensure that the uniform measure is carried out to protect the profession and also enhance public safety so that only deserving nurses get qualified.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, the nullified examinations were set for November/December, 2017. This is November, 2017, and the examinations have just been nullified, but the hon. Minister has told the House that ….

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Mutale: If I got the hon. Minister correctly, he said that another examination will be set for the 18^th December, 2017. Unfortunately, he has not told the House what interventions his ministry has put in place to ensure that the incoming examination will not be leaked. What has the ministry done to avoid the leakages?

 

 Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, the GNCZ has a bank of questions from where they select examination questions. Setting an examination is not a tedious process. Like I said earlier on, there are measures that are already in place to ensure that examinations do not leak. Since we know that it was a soft copy, which leaked, we have improved security measures in the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) section as we prepare the soft copy questions. We will also ensure that we uphold to what we put in place in the past.

Sir, like I said, other measures will be informed by the findings. Suffice to say that the premises, where the final examinations are being prepared had enhanced security and at least, the ICT programmes were also enhanced.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether his ministry is considering to have plan ‘b’ in future, where they can set two or three examinations so that when the first one is leaked, they can switch on to the other one instead of inconveniencing a many people.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, we set examinations and distribute the same examination countrywide. Therefore, we would not like to distribute two sets of examination papers. However, if there is a challenge like we have experienced this time around, there is always a recourse to a different set of questions and logistics will not allow us to immediately state that the examination is changed to the other set of paper because that will  costly. However, the assurance is that at the earliest, suspicion that there is a leakage or malpractice at that scale, the ministry is able to stop the whole examination and create different set of questions. I, therefore, want to assure the House that it was through the vigorous quality assurance processes that the GNCZ used to ensure that the examinations are nullified. I further want to assure the House that the examinations, which have been set, have questions that have been picked from a bank of questions. Therefore, we do not expect recurrence. If anything, we will even reinforce as I said earlier on when we finish investigating.

 

M Speaker, I thank you.

 

_____

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

VOTE 76 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development – K185,738,970).

 

(Consideration resumed)

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, before we adjourned yesterday, I was in fact just winding up my debate. I was trying to remind ourselves that when Zambia agreed to the African Union (AU) Agenda 2063, on harnessing the demographic dividend, we were appreciating the youth bulge and various challenges facing our youth, which were well put across yesterday. I was just reminding our friends, especially in the Ruling Party, that the Zambian people gave them the mandate initially because they propounded policies which were pro-poor. I want to remind them that they need not depart from this very important guideline because over 70 per cent of people in Zambia live in abject poverty.

 

Therefore, the Government policies in education, health and all other sectors affecting the youth must take into account that they are come from homes that are impoverished. If we are not sensitive to the needs of the youth, then we will be condemning them to poverty for the rest of their lives, yet, we have education which can actually change the circumstances under which many of our youths find themselves in.

 

Madam Chairperson, I was also emphasising the issue of us providing meaningful skills that will help the youth lift themselves out of poverty. As political leaders, during the campaigns we tried to initiate the youth into violence so that they could help us win elections. That is not morally right. Let us help the youth in meaningful ways so that they can find employment. Let us begin to prioritise what we want to spend money on as a country.

 

For instance, if we took the money spent on the procurement of the forty-two fire tenders, US$1.2 billion road and all the other grandiose projects that we are embarking on and invested it in supporting the youth, we will a long way as country in addressing the plight that the many youths face today. If all that money was, for example, spent on recapitalising Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ), then we would be creating very meaningful jobs. We could even come up with a new plant all together, since as a nation we are talking about improving the agricultural system. Why should make the youth into street vendors? I am sure that when they were studying things like Avogadro constants in science, certainly they were thinking of doing something more than being asked to vend on the streets in the hot sun.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are many youths from colleges that submitted applications for the recent teachers recruitment exercise by the Government. I am told that 35,000 application letters were submitted by trained teachers who wanted to join the public system, which is only offering 2,000 jobs. That gives you an indication of how low job opportunities are for the youth. This is just in the education sector. What about those that are trained in agriculture or other humanities that are trying to penetrate the job market?

 

Therefore as hon. Members of Parliament, there is a lot that we need do to. When we sit in this august House to look at the National Budget, we need to do the right thing that the Zambian people are expecting us to do. This is more so for our colleagues who have the responsibility of ensuring that funds are made available for the different public programmes that are allocated these financial resources. Otherwise, there is no need for us to sit in here flip through this huge book and then have only two programmes mentioned at the end the day because the Government or Treasury paid more attention to things that are less important to the needs of the Zambian citizenry.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Kalobo (Wusakile): Madam Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to add the voice of the people of Wusakile on this very important topic. Let me begin by saying that Zambia is faced with the twin challenges of poverty and unemployment. Further, the Constitution of Zambia defines a youth as a person aged between nineteen and thirty-five years.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is very surprising to see that money meant for youth empowerment through skills development has been reduced in the ministry’s budget for 2018. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development is very essential as far as the young people are concerned in this country. Statistics show that people aged between nineteen and below thirty-five years are 80.4 per cent of the Zambian population. This means that Zambia is a youthful country.

 

It is, therefore, is very disturbing to see that this budget does not support skills development for the youth. I am very concerned because I do not know in what capacity the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development comes to this august House to ask us to approve this budget which does not support programmes for the young people. Further, this budget does not talk about reducing the retirement age. The retirement age has taken the youth backwards by ten years. This budget does not talk about creating youth programmes at district level and even lowering them to the constituency level. It also does not address the issue of renovation of recreation facilities. For example, we have a community football pitch which is dilapidated in Wusakile. I do not see a budget line for the renovation of this football pitch.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalobo: Madam Chairperson, before I support the budget lines in this Vote, I want to point out that there is nothing in here about engaging hon. Members of Parliament to work with this ministry so that we can help the youth develop in terms of sports and other areas. Hon. Members of Parliament are the ones who know their areas well.

 

Madam, I agree with the hon. Minister where he says the Government has a vision to create or construct skills training facilities in all districts. This is a welcome move. The Skills Development Fund was meant as a long term financing solution for the Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA). Therefore, the ministry should partner with TEVETA and the Ministry of General Education to develop specific programmes of interventions to train young people so that they are employable and can contribute to the development of this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I said, this ministry is very important and it is good that the Government has taken a multi-sectoral approach in dealing with various issues in the country.

 

I have not seen an allocation for funds in this budget, to employ young people who were retrenched when the copper price went down. It is not a disputable fact that mining still remains the golden goose that lays golden eggs, in as far as Zambia’s economic development is concerned. I have seen a boom in the mining sector, with revenue of US$2.9 billion. However, the young people of Wusakile want to know what this US$2.9 billion revenue in the mining sector will do for them. The Government should develop programmes and interventions to empower young people because the youth are the leaders of today.

 

Madam Chairperson, the youth are the leaders of today. Very recently, we approved the budget for the Ministry of Gender. In the past, we had no issues of gender. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development is not supporting young people, both male and female, but wasting resources on issues like gender. If we had involved the young people in programmes to improve their lives in the past, we would not have programmes to support gender issues in our budget now. That money that has gone to gender issues was going to fund development programmes such as bursaries. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development has funds allocated for conferences or forums where youth participation in decision-making processes is discussed. These funds are a waste.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kalobo: Yes, they are a waste, hon. Minister, because if young people had been involved in programmes to better their lives in the past, that money was not going to be used for such conferences for young people. We were going to use that money to build skills training centres and recreation facilities.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalobo: However, look where that money is being channelled. We should have started with this budget to support young people. I want to recommend that the hon. Minister should relook at this budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, let us talk about reducing the retirement age. Let us talk about constructing more skills training centres. In Wusakile Constituency, I have not seen any skills training centre built. I have not seen construction of any sports infrastructure.

 

Madam Chairperson, I urge the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development to come up with programmes to support young people, and engage with hon. Members of Parliament so that we develop young people by giving them skills because we know our constituencies.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me conclude my debate by saying that today, the poverty rate stands at 54.4 per cent. The youth unemployment rate is 10.5 per cent. Even the President’s Speech revealed that we had 10,500 job losses in the mining sector.

 

I want to see the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development work with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development so that we see the re-employment of those people who were retrenched when the copper price went down. Today, the copper price is almost US$7,500 per tonne. No one talked about increasing the salaries of miners. We expect more job losses through outsourcing by Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). We expect more job losses at Dangote mine. No one is talking about it. Twenty youths are losing jobs every day. The hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development should work with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to address this.

 

Madam Chairperson, let us cure the lacunas in the Constitution. Let us cure Section 28(c) of the Employment Act No. 15 of 2015. It does not support the workers of this country. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development should work with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to enshrine the clause in the Act that all outsourced jobs should attract wages, terms and conditions of service not less favourable than those which obtain in the parent company. If this is done, the Government will be popular. I have confidence that the Government is able to do that.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security should work with the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development, Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, Ministry of General Education and Ministry of Higher Education to better the affairs of young people. I want young people to be relevant and participate in all spheres of life. Let us support our workers because we are all Zambians. All of you here have brothers and sisters working somewhere. Let us protect our workers.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Chibanda (Mufulira): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving the people of Mufulira a chance to support the budget for the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development.

 

First and foremost, may I take this opportunity to pass my condolences to the former hon. Member of Parliament and Minister in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government, Mr Cosmas Chibanda, who passed away in Ndola, two days ago, and will be put to rest tomorrow. May his soul rest in peace.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me start by first paying tribute to His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Chagwa Lungu, who is on record as having taken the Office of the President in 2015. When he launched the National Youth Policy and Youth Action Plan on Empowerment, he said some great things. I will try to quote his words because he said great words of wisdom, which the hon. Minister has taken and built on. The President said:

 

“Today is a momentous and historic day of my Government and the youth of Zambia as I launch the 2015 youth policy and the first ever action plan for youth empowerment and employment. I believe that no meaningful development can take place without the involvement of the youth.”

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia has a population of 16.59 million people whose head structure is as follows: 46.7 per cent of it is under fifteen years and 50.8 per cent of it is between fifteen and sixty-four years broken down as follows: 7,916,864 young people under the age of fifteen broken down as 3,973,188 males and 3,943,512 females. This figure brings us to about 8.6 million persons between the ages of fifteen and sixty-four of which 90 per cent is the youth.

 

Madam Chairperson, may I start by reciting the old saying from the Northern part of Zambia which says imiti iikula e mpanga meaning that the future of any nation is anchored on the young people. Our youngest Member of Parliament in the House in this session, who hails from the Eastern Province, told us of another saying, in his maiden speech that Ing’ombe is the heifer. That is where we rely, ...

 

Hon. Members: Aah!

 

Laughter

 

Dr Chibanda: Madam Chairperson, being the last person to contribute to this debate, I note that much has already been said, but I wish to commend the hon. Minister for the great work that he is doing.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Dr Chibanda: Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development is broken into three categories namely: Youth; Sport; and Child Development. The hon. Minister’s policy statement has not said much about the child development aspect yet this is the major foundation for the youth. I would like to request the hon. Minister of Finance to adequately fund this ministry in future.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to consider introducing a Credit Reference Bureau (CRB) in this ministry for the youth. What has been happening is that when there is a programme to empower the youth with finances, those finances are just given to the youth anyhow. There is no CRB to assess these youth to see how many are credit worthy. Mind you, this is a loan given to them and it should be repaid at some point to allow others who did not access the facility to do so. I, therefore, wish to request the ministry to consider setting up a CRB that will be looking at the credit viabilities of the youth as the Government gives them loans. At the moment, it is just a question of giving them funds regardless of whether they are credit worthy or not.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other thing is that there are these buses that have been talked about. I want to urge the Government to look at the policy surrounding those buses. They were haphazardly given, but I think that the Government now has adequate time to look at the policy. This is because those buses were given to the youth through an association of bus drivers. This association was, at some point, not anchored on the youth, but on the drivers some of whom may be youths and others above the youth threshold. It is important that the Government looks at the parameters that were set and try and revisit them.

 

Madam Chairperson, Dr Kambwili said that the repayment conditions for these buses were very harsh. I wish to take those words as my own. This is because I am in the transport sector and I know how challenging the transportation business is. When you ask the bus beneficiaries to be paying back huge sums of money, it becomes a problem.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the sports aspect, we know that soccer is the biggest sport in this country. It unites us across the political divide. However, I think that it is time the Government looked at other sports disciplines. When hon. Members of this House were playing football with diplomats at the Olympic Youth Development Centre (OYDC), it was very embarrassing to see a group of hockey players who wanted to see the hon. Minister to ask him how the Government could accommodate them in the Budget. I, therefore, wish to appeal, on your behalf, to the hon. Minister of Finance to consider funding other sports disciplines too. I can see that there is K40 million which has just been set aside for football, and we have not been told which amounts will go to other sports disciplines. I feel that you are not just the Minister of football, but all the sports disciplines that the youths of this country participate in.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is with this in mind that I urge the hon. Minister to come up with a strong policy which will speak to other ministries like the Ministry of General Education where we have a number of students who participate in sports activities. For now, we have the corporate world such as Airtel, which has done so well in supporting sports. It was probably very instrumental in identifying the Under 20 National Football Team, which has become very popular in our country.

 

Madam Chairperson, the route that the Ministry of General Education was taking has, of late, been abandoned. It has not produced good results in terms of tapping talent. The Government needs to feed in more to ensure that these schools become the nurseries of the county’s sports disciplines.

 

Madam Chairperson, 90 per cent of our youth are in the streets. It is so shameful to see that the 2018 Budget has only set aside K9 million for street vendors, yet those streets are full of youths who are languishing without employment. It is with this in mind, that I hope that the hon. Minister of Finance will consider increasing these figures in future.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other thing that I would want the Government to consider is how the ministry could become a vehicle or collateral unit to operate between some of the youth and banks. The trouble we have is that we are all looking to the Government, and the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development for the empowerment of these youths, especially when it comes to  acquiring loans. Yet the financial sector can also come on board and play a leading role in giving loans to the youth. That is where I strongly feel that this ministry needs to have a department of the CRB because that will stand as a link and means of collateral between some of the youth with no collateral to give to the banks. With this in mind, I support the Vote for the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development.

 

I thank you, Madam.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Madam Chairperson, thank you so much for allowing me to briefly debate this Motion. As you know, I represent one rich constituency, which has got,...

 

Mr Ng’onga: Ema riches aya.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, first of all, I would like to acknowledge that Mr Miyutu, who acknowledged me in his debate when he was talking about the youth development centre in his constituency. Indeed, I was with him and I understand his agony. I also know that the hon. Minister has taken note of that concern and collectively, we will see what can be done to ensure the youth in that area benefit from that facility.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to start from where Dr Chibanda has ended and say that the challenges faced by the youth are not only synonymous to this country. It is a global challenge. This is, therefore, a time for all of us to avoid taking partisan approaches when it comes to dealing with this matter. I say so because all of us here are confronted with this problem, whether we like it or not. Therefore, we should not leave the ministry to come up with interventions that will help us deal with this problem. All of us here have a responsibility to find solutions to the problems being faced by the youth.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Government has tried to do what it can in order to put these interventions in place. However, if my dear colleague from Dundumwezi has challenges in engaging the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development to see how the youth  in his constituency can benefit from the programmes then there is a problem because not much will change until he comes to this side of the House.

 

Madam Chairperson, this takes me to the issues raised by my colleague from Wusakile. We as leaders and representatives of the people know exactly what the challenges are and we should be part of the solution. That is why the youth and elders alike elect us.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member should know that gender issues are crosscutting and that you cannot talk about the youth without talking about gender. You cannot say that one is more important than the other.

 

Ms Kalima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: We have both males and females amongst the youth so we need to make sure that we look at these matters holistically. My point is that it should not be the Government alone to find solutions to the issues affecting the youth such as joblessness amongst many other challenges.

 

Mr Sing’ombe interjected.

 

Mr Kampyongo: The hon. Members is here sited with us to pass this Budget. I do not want to engage him in that manner.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, all I am trying to say is that we collectively need to find solutions. I know my colleague sometimes hides when youth are asking for handouts so we need to collectively start collapsing the box and look at other interventions that we can make.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is even easier for those of us who are coming from rural constituencies. We need to figure out how we can get the youth to be productive and then approach the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development and tell him what programmes we would like to see implemented in order for the youth to benefit meaningfully. If these programmes are workable, we will replicate them in other constituencies.

 

Madam Chairperson, I heard my colleague talk about the issue of street children. This also does not lie squarely on the shoulders of the hon. Minister alone. What has gone wrong with family values? When one’s brother passes away and children remain, it seems people these days do not consider it as their responsibility. The Ministry of Religious Affairs and National Guidance needs to help us revisit our family values because some of the children that are on the street would not be there if we all cared and loved each other as we are supposed to. These issues require the correct approach.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Government has the responsibility, but all of us gathered here are part of the Government and we should not avoid confronting these challenges by sitting and waiting for the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development to find solutions without our participation.

 

Madam Chairperson, another issue, in response to the points raised by the hon. Member for Wusakile, is that there is a lot of greed among the privileged youth. We need to provide leadership to these cooperatives, especially as the peoples’ representatives. What sort of cooperatives should we have? Rural and urban constituencies obviously have different challenges and you cannot have the same programmes to deal with both areas.

 

Madam Chairperson, Wusakile for example, has got its own potential which the youth can exploit. I want to use this opportunity to appeal to the hon. Member for Wusakile, as he goes back to his constituency, to gather all the youth who are supposed to benefit from the mining industry that he alluded to in order to work for a common purpose. Greed will not take them anywhere. They have been crying for months and the Government requested them to come together and take advantage of the percentage that they can benefit from. However, the problem is now about who should take the biggest cut.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am challenging my colleague from Wusakile on behalf of the Government to go back and mobilise all the youth who are interested in the mining sector.

 

Mr Sing’ombe interjected.

 

Mr Kampyongo: We do not refer to them by the name that my colleague is suggesting. The youth can be productive and contribute to the economy of the nation. The hon. Member should go to them and appeal to them to avoid being greedy. Let them come together and the Government will implement what we have offered them so that we can move forward.

 

Madam Chairperson, I do not know the correlation between the hon. Minister’s policy statement and the issue of retirement age. However, I have said repeatedly that the youth should step out and seek ...

 

Mr Livune interjected

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I am seeking your protection. My colleague is bullying me from the other side.

 

Mr Livune left the Assembly Chamber.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, we do not want to have youths who have the culture of just expecting handouts. The Government will be available, but the youth should step out. Nothing drops like manna from heaven. We need the youth that can avail themselves to participate in these programmes and then it will become easier for the hon. Minister and his technocrats to appreciate and mentor them according to what it is they want to venture into.

 

Madam Chairperson, if the Government starts designing programmes which the youth cannot own then, nothing will be achieved. The time has come for the youth to be innovative and creative and come up with programmes which can be adopted by the Government.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development (Mr Mawere): Madam Chairperson, allow me to thank all the hon. Members who have debated this very important Head. Special thanks also go to my brother, Hon. Kampyongo, for elaborating more on the issues of youth in this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I will start with the issues that were raised by Hon. Tutwa Ngulube, the Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central ...

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mawere: ... who raised concerns about Ngungu Youth Resource Centre in Kabwe. The hon. Member has raised very important concerns relating to the status of that centre. First of all, that structure was adopted from the Local Government under Kabwe Municipal Council and we are in the process of reviewing the relationship we have with them. The current relationship limits our ability to add more value to that facility. As a ministry, we are reviewing the relationship so that we can add more value to that centre because that centre is the pride of this country as far as skills development is concerned.

 

Madam Chairperson, within this month, there were 343 grandaunts from that centre which means that the young people have received skills from that centre. 

 

In terms of the way sports associations are being managed in this country, Madam Chairperson, it is very important for hon. Members of Parliament to know that associations by registration are autonomous bodies and they are run privately. Off course, they are registered under the Sports Councils Act, but in terms of management and operations, they are independent. As a responsible PF Government, we support the associations through the Sports Council of Zambia where we give grants every year for all sports associations. It is the desire of the Government to see to it that these associations promote the various sports in the country for the well being of the young people. We will strive with the limited resources to ensure that we add value to various sports activities around the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is very important to note that most of the sports facilities in the country are privately owned. That limits us, as a Government, to come in and provide a facelift to the infrastructure. Therefore, we will continue interacting with the owners of these facilities to ensure that we keep them in a desirable state.

 

The hon. Member for Kabwe Central raised issues of buses. I would not want to confirm that this was a missed call. I think about 170 youths have benefited from these buses. We are reviewing the way this empowerment for the young people was done because as observed, the repayment period is quite long and that these buses are deteriorating at a fast rate which may be very difficult for the young people to get benefits after the repayment of the loans. We are reviewing this programme and that is why you have noticed that we initially budgeted for 100 buses, but have maintained the first twenty-five because we want to learn so that next time when we purchase more buses, we would have known how to handle this important empowerment programme. As a ministry, we go sector by sector empowerment approach. We cannot leave out those in bus stations because that is what they know best. We cannot stop that empowerment programme, but we need to perfect it.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member for Kabwe Central also raised the issue of linking Youth Resource Centres to possible sponsors. True to his word, as a ministry, that is what we are doing. We have partnered with a number of stakeholders who are supporting us in various programmes at these centres.

 

The issue of street vendors fund and Kabwe not benefitting, Madam Chairperson, I want to bring it to the attention of the hon. Member that Kabwe was one of the districts where we piloted this programme and it was successful. Due to the Kabwe success story, it gave us the impetus to rollout to all the provinces of this great nation. Hon. Member for Kabwe Central just develop interest to know who the beneficiaries are and to what extent have they improved their lives. We are learning from your constituency in terms of how this street vendor’s programme has fared so far.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Laughter

Mr Kopulande: On appoint of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Musukwa restrained Mr Kopulande.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member for Kabwe Central also talked about us working very with hon. Members. As a ministry we have taken a deliberate step to engage hon. Members when we are developing and implementing a number of programmes in the ministry. True to our words, recently we had an engagement with hon. Members of Parliament where we engaged them on a number of programmes which we want to implement. This is a process where we would want to involve all hon. Members of Parliament.

 

Madam Chairperson, I think most of the issues which were raised by other hon. Members are similar to those raised by the hon. Member for Kabwe Central.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mawere: For Miyutu, he talked about money not being …

 

Mr Syakalima: Hon. Miyutu, iwe!

 

Mr Mawere: Off course, he is Hon. Miyutu.

 

Madam Chairperson, Mr Miyutu talked about the ministry being static in terms of funding. I want to bring it to his attention that actually the funding has increased. In 2017, we had a budget of about K59 million now it has gone to K185 million. This is a step in the right direction.

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Miyutu also talked about Kalabo Youth Resource Centre saying that there is no centre in Kalabo. We are actually building a centre in Kalabo. If you got me very clearly, I said we want to finish what we started and Kalabo is one of those centres where we have started constructing. We would want to encourage the hon. Member to take interest and follow-up this issue.

Madam Chairperson, in the interest of time, allow me to conclude…

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mawere: … by thanking all hon. Members. I know they have raised a number of issues, in the interest of time I may not have gone item by item. However, I encourage hon. Members whose concerns I have not addressed to engage me over a cup of tea or visit my office so that we are able to address the issues together. This is because this august House is another arm of Government, so there is no Government somewhere apart from what we have here.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

INDIVIDUAL ITEMS

 

VOTE 71/01 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development – Headquarters – K52,813,410).

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 067 – Processing Audit Queries and Public Accounts Committee Matters – nil, are they running away from audit queries that you have not budgeted for it?

 

Programme 5009, Activity 067 – Processing Audit Queries and Public Accounts Committee Matters – nil.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, you do not have to repeat, the hon. Minister has heard the question.

 

Programme 5009, Financial Management and Accounting, Activity 067 – Processing Audit Queries and Public Accounts Committee Matters, last year there was K12,800. For 2018, there is no allocation.

 

Mr Mawere  could not find the Vote.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, do you need help? Are your officials very far?

 

They can send a note to the hon. Minister.

 

Mr Mawere indicated to have found the Vote.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Development, are you ready now?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, this activity has moved to the newly created Department of Finance.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5000, Activity 002 – Division 11 – K1,314,530. In 2017, there was an allocation of K2,104,034. Why has this amount drastically reduced? Does it mean that the workforce and salaries for Division II have reduced?

 

Madam Chairperson, I also seek clarification on Programme 5007, Activity 001 – Suppliers of Goods and Services – K40,450,000. In 2017, there was an allocation of  K200,000. Why do we have this huge increment on this activity?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5000, Activity 002 is meant to cater for payments of salaries and annual increments for all positions in Division II in the ministry’s headquarters. The decrease is due to the realignment of staff from the Financial Management Unit under Unit 01 – Human Resources to the newly created Department of Finance. 

 

Madam Chairperson, Programme 5007, Activity 001 – Supply of Goods and Services is meant to dismantle arrears. This provision is meant to meet the cost of outstanding payments to suppliers of goods and services to the ministry. The increase is due to increased outstanding debts for goods and services.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5007, Activity 016 – Insurance – K950,000. In 2017, there was K550,000. Why has this amount increased?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the provision is meant to cater for outstanding payments for insurance covers in the ministry. The increase is due to increased insurance obligations.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5007, Activity 001 – Suppliers of Goods and Services – K40,450,000. In 2017, there was K200,000. How much was outstanding at the beginning of the 2017, and how much will be outstanding at the end of 2017? 

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, in the 2017 Budget, the dismantling of arrears was catered for by the Ministry of Finance. In 2018, each ministry has been asked to Budget for the dismantling of arrears. That is why we have this huge increase under this Activity.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5079, Activity 006 – Procurement of Fuel and Lubricants – K42,000. In 2017, there was an allocation of K62,000. Why has the amount been reduced?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the allocation is meant to procure fuel and lubricants for the ministry. The decrease is due to the reduction in fleet size as some vehicles are non-runners.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5026, Activity 056 – HRM – Audit – K201,250. I believe that the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development has a fairly small number of employees. I am wondering what kind of Human Resource Audit this is, which was budgeted for in 2017, at K80,000. Can the minister explain to this august House why we have this increase and what kind of activities these are, which were not done in 2017.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, this provision is meant to cater for the cost of Audit of Human Resource Management. The increase is due to increased number of facilities to be audited. These are internal audits.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 76/02 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development – Youth Affairs Department - K64,264,640).

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 319 – Namuso Youth Resource Centre. Why it is that all the youth resource centres are catered for next year apart from Namuso Youth Resource Centre?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, Namuso Youth Resource Centre is not part of the nineteen youth resource centres.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, in 2017, you allocated K30,000 to Namuso Youth Resource Centre. Why is it that in the 2018 Budget, there is no allocation? If Namuso was not one of your youth resource centres, then why did you allocate it with some funds in 2017? 

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the provision is necessary to facilitate the administrative and …

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, there is no allocation.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, there is no provision because we merged Namuso Youth Resource Centre with Muoyo Youth Resource Centre. Therefore, it is catered for under the allocation for Muoyo Youth Resource Centre.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, Activity 289 is Muoyo Youth Resource Centre and it had an allocation for 2017. Activity 319 is Namuso Youth Resource Centre. I am sure the belief of the hon. Members of the House is that these are two different youth resource centres, including that their infrastructure stands in different places. Could you clarify that answer that you have given?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the two youth resource centres are in the same locality with the same management. Therefore, we merged them to ease their management.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 372 – Commonwealth Youth Development Centre – K34,590. Why has thisallocation been reduced in 2018, by almost 50 per cent?

 

Mr Miyutu rose.

 

The Chairperson: Mr Miyutu, please, resume your seat. You have already indicated that you wish to ask a question. Therefore, wait for your turn.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5005, Activity 372 – Commonwealth Youth Development Centre – K34,590 is necessary to facilitate the administrative and operational costs for Commonwealth Youth Development Centre. The decrease is due to less programmes and activities at the centre.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5047, Activity 046 – Equipment and Tools – K950,000. K1,450,000 was allocated to this activity in 2017 and K950,000 in 2018. What equipment and tools were bought in 2017? Also, why has the amount been reduced in 2018, yet the youth of Dundumwezi did not receive any equipment and tools?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5047, Activity 046 – Equipment and Tools – K950,000 is meant for the purchase of equipment and tools to enhance training in youth resource centres. The decrease is due to realignment of resources to Activity 701, Facilitation of Skills Training.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 052 – King George VI National Youth College – K461,240. Firstly, where is this college? Secondly, why is it heavily funded when Namuso Youth Resource Centre has not been allocated any amount?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, this college is in Kabwe. Since it is not a youth resource centre, its capacity of handling students is quite huge hence this allocation.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Chairperson, Namuso Youth Resource Centre is situated before Kabuli Technical School. The hon. Minister stated that Namuso and MuoyoYouth Resource Centres are one institution. When did they merge them and why was Muoyo Youth Resource Centre funded last year?

 

The Chairperson: Perhaps the hon. Minister will clarify by giving more details.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development has established one youth resource center in each district. Namuso Youth Resource Centre was initially managed by the World Vision, but it stopped supporting it. Therefore, we merged it with Muoyo Youth Resource Centre for ease management and it will cater for its students because we could not have two centres in one district.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: Have the students been transferred?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the management of Muoyo Youth Resource Centre is now managing both institutions since they were merged.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mrs Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 366 – Kafue Youth Resource Centre – K69,190. Before we appreciate this allocation, was the K30,000 which was allocated to this activity last year released?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, this money was released, that is why we are seeing that Kafue Youth Resource Centre is almost completed. We are looking forward to the opening of this centre.

 

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme, 5047, Activity 702 – Action Plan on Youth Employment and Empowerment – K48,694,730. In the 2017 Budget, there was no money allocated to this activity, but in the 2018 Budget, there is a jump from zero to K48,694,730. Could the hon. Minister elaborate more as to why there is this new figure from nowhere.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, this provision is meant to cater for the implementation of the action plan for youth employment and empower, which every Member of Parliament has been asking in this august House that this ministry should be relevant. That is why we want to become relevant to everyone now.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Chisangano (Gwembe): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5180, Activity 001 – Identification and Assessment of New Youth Resettlement Schemes – K150,000. Why has the amount dropped from K1,800,000 to K150,000? Are we stopping this programme?

 

The Chairperson: Programme 5180, Youth Resettlement Schemes, Activity 001 – Identification and Assessment of New Youth Resettlement Schemes – K150,000. In the 2017 Budget there was an allocation of K1,800,000 and for 2018 there is K150,000, why?

Mrs Fundanga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the reduction is due to scaling down on activities because most of the activities were carried out in the 2017 Budget.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 76/03 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development – Sports Department – K59,868,680)

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5035, Activities 001 – Commonwealth Games – K250,000 and 002 – Support to Senior National Football Team – K47,000,000. In the year 2017, there was no provision on Activity 001 on Commonwealth Games. Then in 2018, there is an allocation of K250,000. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if there were no activities in 2017 …

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the provision is meant to cater for the cost of the country’s participation in the 2018 Commonwealth games that will be held is Australia. This activity happens every after four years and this time it will take place in 2018. That is why we have budgeted for it.

 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5120, Activity 012 – Grassroots Sports Development – K869,000. In the 2017 Budget, there was an allocation slightly above K1,365,585, but in the 2018 Budget the figure has dropped to K869,000. This activity caters for talent search when we are searching for the would-be national players. Why has the figure been dropped instead of increasing it?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the provision is meant cater for the grassroots sports development in communities. The decrease is due to some activities being covered under Programme 5120, Activity 004 – FIFA Grassroots Football.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5006, Activities 008 – International Council of Sports Science and Physical Education – Nil and 021 – Sport for Development and Peace – Nil. I would like to find out why there has been no allocation in the 2018 Budget for subscriptions and contributions to these two organisations.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, …

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Fundanga: Ema ministers aya!

 

Mr Mawere: … on Programme 5006, Activities 008 – International Council of Sports Science and Physical Education – Nil. This provision is meant to cater for the annual subscriptions to the International Council for Sports Funds. The activity has not been budgeted for in 2018, due to the realignment of funds to Programme 5035, Activity 01. On Activity 021 – Sport for Development and Peace – Nil, this provision is meant to cater for the annual subscription to sports for development and peace. Funds for this activity have been realigned to Programme 5035, Activity 01 – Human Resource.

 

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Madam Chairperson, Programme 5035, Activity 002 – Support to Senior National Football Team – K47,000,000. In the 2017 Budget there was an allocation of K17,000,000 and next year there is a budget of K47,000,000. I would like to find out what necessitated the increase.

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5035, Activity 002 – Support to Senior National Football Team – K47,000,000. This provision is meant to cater for the cost of supporting senior national football team participation in the Africa Cup of Nations (football) (AFCON) and other tournaments. The increase is due to increased cost of participation at the tournaments.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 76/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 76/04 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development – Child Development Department – K6,455,400).

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 700 – Chikumbi Childrens Home – K200,000, Activity 701 – Mufulira Children Home – K250,000, Activity 702 – Kimasala Reading and Recreation Centre – K100,000.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Sing’ombe, are you looking at on Programme 5005, Activity 700 – Chikumbi Childrens Home – K200,000, Activity 701 – Mufulira Children Home – K250,000, Activity 702 – Kimasala Reading and Recreation Centre – K100,000. There was no allocation for these activities in 2017.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam, the same programme is appearing on page 914 for the same activities. The same activities were funded with the same amounts on page 914. I am asking why the figures have not been increased for the 2018 allocation on Child Development Department on page 913.

 

The Chairperson: Can the hon. Minister also explain why this particular Programme, 5005 is appearing on page 913 and 914.

Mr Mawere: Madam, Chairperson, this is the same programme. If I got his question correctly, the hon. Member is asking why we have not increased the allocations to these institutions in 2018.

 

Madam, Programme 5005, Activity 700 – Chikumbi Childrens Home – K200,000, Activity 701 – Mufulira Children Home – K250,000, Activity 702 – Kimasala Reading and Recreation Centre – K100,000 have remained static because of the limited allocation of funds to this department.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson

 

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5079, Activity 005 – Insurance of Motor Vehicle – Nil, Activity 008 – Procurement of Fuel and Lubricants – Nil, Activity 009 – Fleet Servicing – Nil.

 

Madam, further, I also want to have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 001 – Rehabilitation of Reading and Recreation Centre – Nil. 

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5079, Activity 005 – Insurance of Motor Vehicle – Nil, Activity 008 – Procurement of Fuel and Lubricants – Nil, Activity 009 – Fleet Servicing – Nil have no allocation because the budget line has moved to the Department of Human Resource and Administration under Programme 500, Activity 005 – K44,220

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson. 

 

Mr Mawere: Madam, on Programme 5011, Activity 001 – Rehabilitation of Reading and Recreation Centre – K426,140 is meant to cater for the establishment of reading and recreation centres including play parks. The activity has been provided for under Programme 5011 under Activity 001. 

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson. 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5015, Activity 001 – Rehabilitation and Reintegration of Street Children – K1,999,990.

 

The Chairperson: Was the programme successful or not in 2017?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, Programme 5015, Activity 001 – Rehabilitation and Reintegration of Street Children – K1,999,990  is meant to possibly eradicate the problem of streetism in Zambia. I would like to say that the programme was partially successful, hence, the increase of the allocation.

 

Votes 76/04, 76/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – K740,732,460).

 

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kalaba):  Madam, Chairperson, I wish to express my sincere gratitude for according me this opportunity to debate the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the Year, 2018.

 

Madam, I am also grateful that I have students from Chibanashi and Bahati Parliamentary Constituency in particular, who have come to support me as I present my estimates.  Welcome to Parliament.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalabala: The ministry draws its portfolio functions and mandate from Government Gazette Notice No. 836 or 2016, which is ‘To Implement Zambia’s Foreign Policy and Facilitate Government’s Interaction with the International Community for Advancing the Country’s National Interests’. The ministry’s mission, therefore, is ‘To Effectively Promote and Protect Zambia’s Interests and Maintain Good International Relations in Order to Contribute to National Development.’

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, this august House will recall that during the Official Opening of the Second Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, His Excellency, the President, emphasised the importance of using information and communication technology (ICT) to enhance productivity and public service delivery. In line with this pronouncement, the ministry has re-aligned its priorities in line with the 7^th NDP, which entails sectors working together in clusters to achieve the desired development outcomes.

 

Madam, I am bringing to this august House the ministry’s budget allocation for 2018, amounting to K740,439,977 and I am supremely confident that the House will support it. I wish to report that the money has been carefully distributed to both personal and non-personal emoluments in order to ensure smooth operations at ministry’s headquarters and Zambian missions abroad.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to reduce the huge expenditure by the Government on maintaining and renting properties in missions abroad, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Finance have been implementing the Mortgage Financing Initiative, which is aimed at rehabilitation, construction and purchase of properties, for the Zambian Government in foreign countries, where we have diplomatic presence. This initiative will no doubt release the strain on the Treasury and reduce Government expenditure on rentals as the missions will be self-reliant for office and staff accommodation. To facilitate this programme, K24,088,780 has been allocated in the next year’s budget. 

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia’s foreign policy, as revised in 2014, is oriented towards economic diplomacy in line with global economic trends and developments. In this regard, the ministry is now focused on promoting the country’s economic interests in key areas such as agriculture, energy, manufacturing, infrastructure development and tourism, to mention, but a few. In fulfilling the tenets of economic diplomacy, the ministry has increased negotiations with other countries on a broad range of economic, political, technical, social and developmental issues under the joint permanent commission framework and bilateral consultations.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Zambian Government attaches great importance to commitments made to regional and international organisations such as the African Union (AU), Southern African Development Community (SADC), Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and the Great Lakes Region. Some of the regional programmes that Zambia stands to benefit from include the Batoka Gorge Hydropower Project, Zambia-Tanzania-Kenya interconnector, one stop border posts and the north-south corridor, among others. To facilitate implementation of activities under these programmes, K251,860 has been provided in 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, you may wish to recall that in August, 2017, I informed this august House that Zambia was elected as a member of the SADC Organ Troika on Politics, Defence and Security Cooperation from 2017, to 2020. To this effect, Zambia will in August, 2018, assume the position of chair of the SADC Organ Troika and will be required to take the lead in several peace and security initiatives in the region. This will include the hosting of extraordinary summits of the organ troika to address urgent peace and security matters. The attainment of greater political stability in the region will create an enabling environment for socio-economic development and pave way for the realisation of the Agenda 2063. In this regard, the ministry has allocated K584,020 to this programme in 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, you may also recall that during the AU Summit in January, 2016, Zambia was granted the honour of hosting, for the first time, an AU organ; the headquarters of the Economic, Social and Cultural Council (ECOSOCC). In meeting the obligations as host of the organ, Zambia is expected to provide, among other facilities, suitable modern office accommodation to house the ECOSOCC secretariat and residential accommodation for the executive secretary. Consequently, K760,000 has been allocated to this programme in 2018.

 

As you may be aware, Madam Chairperson, the ministry embarked on facilitating the twinning of Zambia provinces with provinces and states in various countries around the globe. In this regard, Zambia and China are implementing a twinning programme of provinces based on their comparative advantage to create working partnerships in key sectors. Consequently, K129,000 has been allocated to this programme in 2018.

 

Madam Chairperson, although the country has been declared a mine-free state, Zambia, through the ministry, continues to undertake demining operations due to periodic discoveries of unexploited ordinances. In this regard, my ministry will continue with awareness programmes, victim assistance and demining operations.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry’s foreign missions are operated in such a manner that officers serve a minimum period at the station. In this regard, K12 million has been provided for the transportation of appointed diplomats and those that would have completed their tour of duty or contract.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to reiterate my ministry’s commitment towards the promotion and protection of Zambia’s interests and maintaining good international relations in order to contribute to national development. Zambia belongs to each one of us and the work of the ministry is on behalf of all Zambians. Suffice to say that we are all ambassadors of our very beautiful country and must have the interest of our country at heart.

 

Let us, therefore, speak positive of Zambia when we go beyond our borders and market the country as a preferred destination of choice for investment to benefit the general citizenry. In this regard, I am equally confident that the hon. Members of this august House will support the 2018 estimates of expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as they have always done.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, before I allow any further debate, you may wish to know that it has been decided that the hon. Chief Whip will present to me a list of hon. Members to debate each of the Heads. The hon. Members to debate each Head, as it has been agreed, is four from the Patriotic Front (PF) and four from the United Party for National Development (UPND). As Chairperson, I will use the discretion bestowed on me to decide for the other hon. Members who belong to other groupings such as the independents, Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and of course the only hon. Member for the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD).

 

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for his policy statement. We appreciate the role that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs plays in international relations to represent our country. We also note the influence that we can have as a country in international affairs is more related to how the global community looks at Zambia. We want to stress that the international community can only listen to us if we demonstrate sustained stability and economic prosperity. These are very key issues in global politics. You have to stand on firm ground for you to influence what is happening on the global scene.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is extremely important, therefore, that Zambia should continue to sustain its historical position in global politics. Zambia was at the forefront of the liberation struggle, particularly in the Southern African region. I recall that each time President Kenneth Kaunda addressed the United Nations (UN), the whole world wanted to listen to what he was going to say. Therefore, we want to hear our voice more on the international scene.

 

Madam, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is working very hard. We are aware of the various roles and responsibilities that Zambia has been given by the international community, including our participation and membership in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Organ Troika on Politics, Defence and Security Cooperation. However, we have to recollect the events in Zimbabwe of the past couple of days and reflect on the failure on the part of SADC to attend to the problems which were brewing up in that country for a very long time since 2000.

 

Dr Chibanda: Question!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: We are also aware of the problems in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1640 hours until 1700 hours.

 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

 Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Chairperson, in support of this Vote, I want to continue where I left. I was talking about the problems in Zimbabwe, which the Southern African Development Community (SADC) could not resolve on time, which ended up creating more than 3 million Zimbabwean refugees in South Africa and all over the diaspora.

 

We also have a simmering problem in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), where a number of refugees have already started coming into our country, overstretching our resources. We have been hosting refugees since 1964. As Dag Hammarskjold said, the role of diplomacy is to prevent conflict. The role of diplomacy is to negotiate and avoid reaching the boiling point. Zambia has to take a very active role in addressing the problem in DRC. She is our neighbour, and we have a very long border with her.

 

There is also a problem in Lesotho, which keeps coming back. Again, it appears that SADC is not able to resolve that problem and bring some stability in that sister republic. There are also other countries on the continent which are in the habit of changing their constitution whenever they are about to face elections. We have to speak. Zambia must speak. As a country founded on democratic principles, we have to say that we believe that democracy is not built around one person. Everybody has his time. When the time comes to an end, as the President of Botswana said recently, it is time to move on.

 

Madam Chairperson, look at the history of the African Union (AU). The AU was founded on the principle that you cannot interfere in the general affairs of another country, among others. If the house of your neighbour is burning, let it burn there. It is not your problem. Julius Nyerere broke this principle in 1976, by ordering the defence force of Tanzania to invade Uganda because Idi Amin was embarrassing Africa. He was killing Ugandans. This has been emulated by the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS). They intervened directly in Sierra Leone. They also stopped the person who was trying to run Gambia like his house. They stopped him from continuing. SADC must take such proactive action. We have, I believe, the capacity to prevent some of the things that are happening around us.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to acknowledge the fact that the policy of moving towards economic diplomacy is the right one. In today’s world, the focus is on the economic well being of our citizens, and I believe we should continue on this path by ensuring that our representatives in the various embassies and missions are able to deliver.

 

I note that we have thirty-five embassies and missions. One would want to factor in the fact that we are implementing an austerity programme. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs should look at the possibility of realignment of some of these embassies and missions. For example, in Europe, the mission in Brussels, which is the European Union (EU) headquarters, could be expanded to take care of some countries in Europe. This will also enable us to concentrate our experts in the areas of economics and trade in one place, therefore, achieving the appropriate skills mix.

 

We could also form clusters of countries to be under one central embassy, with the right type of staff. We have talked several times in this House of the importance of ensuring that we have some of our best people in our embassies to represent us so that we can benefit from the countries we have relations with.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to say that I have listened to the in-coming President of Zimbabwe. I believe that his pronouncements are on track, except he touched on the issue of the Zimbabwe African National Union-Patriotic Front (ZANU-PF) perpetually being the party of choice. Even if that statement was made in the spirit of launching a campaign, I would want to see a situation where the political space is given to all the political players in Zimbabwe equally. I have also noted that there are problems, especially for diplomatic passport holders who want to visit Dubai. It is taking a very long time to process their Visa applications. I believe that this is a matter that should be addressed. I can see that Dubai is under a list of missions that this country has or wishes to open missions in.

 

Madam Chairperson, coming from a border town, we face issues on a daily basis that need to be addressed by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The first is the issue of the free movement of our people at the border of Katima Mulilo where our citizens are not allowed on the Namibian side in vehicles. Instead, they are forced to offload their luggage and carry it, even during the rainy season. Our citizens are forced to carry the luggage on their heads for a distance of about 1 km to the Zambian side of the border. Taxis are also not allowed to enter the Zambian side of the border. I believe that as member of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and the historical role that Sesheke played in the liberation of Namibia, our people cannot continue to be treated that way. This is a matter which I hope the ministry can look into.

 

Madam Chairperson, there is also an issue of mines which were laid along the Imwisho Road cutting into Katima. I recall that in the 2017 Budget, there was an allocation to demine the area so that work on the road can commence. The people of Imwisho as if they are not part of Zambia. They feel neglected. The There is no infrastructure there. If worked on, that road would open up the area. I want to conclude by saying I support the Budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Chairperson, I thank you and I also thank the hon. Minister for his policy statement. Firstly, I want to acknowledge the demeanour within which the hon. Minister laid down his policy document and his last words where he emphasised that Zambia belongs to all of us. I want to say that I have no choice, but to support the Vote. Not doing that would be very irresponsible of me.

 

Madam Chairperson, this ministry is extremely critical to the existence of our nation. If the President is the number one diplomat then the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is the number one and a half diplomat. However, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is more travelled than the President because of his line of duty. Therefore, the manner in which he interacts with the rest of the world has a bearing on who we are. I want to say that I have concerns with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Firstly, I have done a search on the people who are assigned to head missions abroad. My search revealed that these people do not carry the face of Zambia. Please mark that. I will not elaborate any further. The hon. Minister has been in the ministry for a long time, and I imagine that by now he would have tried to balance that face which I am talking about.

 

Madam Chairperson, during his line of duty, the hon. Minister at one time, said that he wanted to emphasise that the ministry would only have career diplomats serving in these missions. That statement was fully supported, and it arose from certain incidents which I am going to mention now.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2015, one of the officers in New York, using diplomatic cover, was exempted from prosecution after being caught for drunk driving. As if it was a joke, he had an accident. That accident was not with another common road user, but with the New York Police Department vehicle. I am sure the hon. Minister knows what I am talking about.

 

Madam Chairperson, in another breath, there was another officer in London, who has been under investigation for allegedly having stolen a title deed. I do not know if this investigation ended or not. This speaks to the quality of people that the Government sends into Foreign Service. I have just taken two samples, but I am sure that if we did a search, we would find much more. Those of us who travel quite a bit and those of us with relatives in the Diaspora will attest to this. What I am saying is real. Sometimes, the demeanour of carrying a diplomatic posture gets watered down by the people the Government sends to represent this country abroad.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Government needs to activate the diplomatic school. I do not know where this school is, but I remember that during the Third Republic, there was a school that was established at the National Institute for Public Administration (NIPA). This was for people who were apolitical and they went to learn how to become diplomats. What we have seen over the years is that people who sing the loudest for the ruling party find themselves in the diplomatic service. They go with that attitude of being members of the ruling party. For example, without mentioning names, just across the Limpompo, there is a very notorious diplomat there. I will shortly come back to him. Those who go to serve in the Foreign Service carry that demeanour of saying because they are Patriotic Front (PF) cadres they can also exercise that in Piccadilly, Queens and Illinois. The Government needs to tell these people that they should hibernate this ruling party syndrome because when they go there to work for all of us, just as the hon. Minister said.

 

Madam Chairperson, when people are sent into Foreign Service, they need to do certain things which are very important. One of the key issues, which the hon. Minister agrees with as mentioned in his policy statement, is that the tour of duty is for them to explain the various socio activities in our country and promote things such as tourism, trade, attraction of investment into our country and so on and so forth. Those things I have mentioned can only be sold if there is value in what they are selling. The hon. Minister also said that we all should all be patriotic and promote the country. I agree with him. However, we can only promote the country to the extent of not telling lies. I withdraw the word lies and replace it with not being deceitful. We cannot call a spade a big spoon. This is what our diplomats need to learn when they go out there.

 

Madam Chairperson, I had a personal experience when the University of Birmingham invited me to go to Brussels. I think that the hon. Minister is aware of this because the country’s intelligence system works. I agree with the hon. Minister when he says that when we go outside, we should promote the country. However, if I go to Brussels, Kearns or Zimbabwe, I cannot go and tell the Zimbabweans that in Zambia we are Caucasians or white. I will tell them that we are black in colour. I cannot go there and start smearing the white colour on black skin. I will explain to you why.

 

Madam Chairperson, when I went to Brussels two months ago, under the invitation of a university in Langland, to present a paper on how I view our Zambian democracy. The invitation was extremely specific in light of the arrest of the UPND leader Mr Hakainde Hichilema. I was told to go and give a diary account of what we had been going through. I was not a coward and when I got to Brussels, the first thing I did, like a responsible Zambian, was to report my presence to the Embassy in Belgium. I called and informed them my name and I was welcomed over the telephone to the extent of being invited to go and have a meal. I went to do my duty. I made an hour long presentation of how things were, including the invocation of Article 31. I could not go there and tell them that there were no problems in Zambia or that there was no threatened state of emergency. I had to go and tell them the truth.

 

Madam Chairperson, as a result of the fact that the system has tentacles and because people in the Executive run foreign affairs like a club, someone from the nearly fallen state across the Zambezi River rang the embassy while I presenting and informed them that there was an hon. Member of Parliament who was disparaging the country and that is how I lost my dinner. The next moment I was told that the embassy could no longer take me to airport, but I told them it was fine because I would go to the Airport by train.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am saying all these things to show that the truth has no disguise. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should know that no matter how flamboyantly he paints the country, the truth has no disguise. We must sell the same product. The hon. Minister knows very well that there was huge embarrassment that happened in South Africa with some of his staff there when there was an argument between the leader of the opposition there and one of our representatives. I would urge the Government to desist from sending people who are political to foreign missions. There are people who run political desks in the foreign missions. There will be certain things that are a bit too heavy and protocol demands that that individual should have referred the matter to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs who would have issued a statement on the on goings in the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me spend a bit of time on regional bodies because we have accreditation there. I thank Hon. Kufakwandi very much, but again I blame him because he comes from a diplomatic background and sometimes he massages points.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: I do not want to massage points.

 

The Chairperson: That is his style of debate, you have your own. Please proceed.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: I thank him for the way he carried on about the Southern African Development Community (SADC). Our regional affiliation has become of little to no value, apart from Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) because it is a self driven process as there is trade going on. However, the issue of SADC has caused embarrassment to all fourteen member states because of what is going on in Zimbabwe and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).

 

Madam Chairperson, look at how Heads of State behaved in the last two days. There have been a lot of difficulties in the DRC. There are plus or minus 10,000 people trooping into our country through the Lualaba River, in the hon. Minister’s province, because there is turmoil in that country. One of their own, Mr Mugabe, who was un-democratic and overstayed in power, but who is no longer president, is under siege by his own people. The chairman of SADC decided to send an envoy to Zimbabwe and they returned him at the airport the way Zambia returned Mmusi Mainane at the airport here.

 

Mr Kalaba indicated descent.

 

Mr Nkombo: I am giving a report as I received it. The information I have is that President Zuma sent an emissary into Zimbabwe to help and he was sent back at the airport.

 

Mr Kalaba indicated descent.

 

Mr Nkombo: I stand to be corrected. The point I am trying to put across is that the hon. Minister and his bosses should have been going to Kinshasa. Are you aware that Moïse Katumbi, who is the leader of the opposition in the DRC, controlling a province which has a population nearly the size of this country, is a fugitive now?

 

Madam Chairperson, the other day the hon. Minister of Home Affairs said that they are going to see the refugee situation in Chienge or wherever it is. Do not go there. Do not go to Rwanda, it is too far. Go to Kinshasa and sit President Kabila down and tell him that what he is doing is against the SADC treaty. The hon. Minister knows the SADC treaty and that is why the fallen president of Zimbabwe, not so long ago, killed the SADC tribunal which was meant to uphold the tenets of the SADC treaty. I am sure the hon. Minister knows what I am taking about.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, the SADC tribunal was the judicial arm of the SADC member states which is supposed to check that you are following the laws that govern your countries. The hon. Minister is aware that we were supposed to come up with common laws in integration process. The hon. Minister understands everything I am talking about.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, it would be nice if the hon. Minister taught some of his colleagues some etiquette so that we educate one another. I said I stand to be corrected, because I am not the best person in world, but based on what I read, President Zuma had sent someone. However, if the answer is no, I will withdraw that, gladly, so that we do not spend too much time on it. The point I am driving is that SADC is a failed organisation.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Lubezhi: Exactly!

 

Mr Nkombo: Zimbabwe has demonstrated that they can solve their own problems without SADC.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: I am told that from Angola, SADC was planning to move like a swarm of bees to Zimbabwe to tell that man to either resign or stay on. However, I know that when our Head of State arrived here he said that he was shocked that Mugabe had resigned. What was shocking about something that was so apparent?

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, when you go into a toilet you are bound to come out because you cannot stay there for good.

 

Madam Chairperson, SADC has failed. Next week I will come with a Motion urging the Government to table a motion to SADC to go back to the basics because the future is no longer what it used to be in 1980. The Front Line States, which became the SADC coordination committee, which is a community today, as an organisation has departed from the very tenets for which it was established.

 

Madam Chairperson, what legacy does SADC want to leave, a legacy of wanting to protect dictators? Zambia is a member of the Africa Peer Review Mechanism and the African Union (AU). These are all voluntary clubs, but in life voluntary things are much more compulsory than compulsory things. Why join SADC if we cannot live up to the aims and objects for which it was established?

 

Madam Chairperson, there is so much to say, but I support the hon. Minister because he means well. However, I think Zambia should review its status in this regional body.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Chairperson, ...

 

Hon. Government Member: Eh ma tucking in!

 

Laughter

 

Dr Malama: Madam Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs for the statement that he has given in support of the Budget. This ministry is extremely important as it is the face of our country to the outside world. From 1964, our people have expressed support and solidarity for the democracy and liberation of countries around us by shedding blood and offering financial support and sanctuary to people, which we continue to do.

 

Although this may not be appreciated, Zambia shall forever be a beacon of peace for that is who we are. Therefore, this ministry needs the support of everybody. There are people today, who are not with us; their loved ones are not around because they came in harm’s way. Many of the officers, people who are in uniform defended this country for the liberation of this country and those countries around us. Through this ministry, we require representation in different political spheres and economic markets so that we can represent the interest of Zambia and the world because we have been able to carry a vision of our country from inception.

 

Madam Chairperson, I remember how this country looked after Zimbabwean freedom fighters. Today, one of the liberation icons has just retired wilfully. I want to take this moment to really remember that those who have worked should not be forgotten.

 

Mrs Simukoko: He was fired

 

Dr Malama: I want to say, he resigned wilfully as it was said by the Speaker.

 

Mr Chabi: Jacob Mudenda.

Dr Malama: I remember that he put himself and the people of Zimbabwe in harm’s way to liberate themselves from colonial masters. I really want to thank the freedom fighters in Zambia who should continue to represent us and those abroad…

 

Mr L. N. Tembo: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama: … that have stood for the liberation of Africa. The man is no more today, the other day; he would stand in New York, in the United Nations to tell the world why there is need for Africa to be in the Security Council. We want the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in our country to continue drumming that Africa can be represented on the Security Council. Why would it be that the United States, Europe, Asia should be represented and not Africa. Therefore, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should continue to drum that Africa is of age and that the African person can represent the interest not only of Africa, but the world at the table with other races when we talk about the present and the future of our country. This, comrade Mugabe, I withdraw the term, comrade, was able to it in a way very few could have done it.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Minister, Permanent Secretary and staff at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, not forgetting our diplomats serving around the world. We know that diplomats are serving in very difficult circumstances. I hope that we should be able to consider them. I am aware that we recently opened an embassy in Israel.

 

Mr Kalaba indicated assent.

 

Dr Malama: I would like to commend the Government for opening an embassy in Israel. Israel is a strategic nation to Zambia as a Christian nation. I hope that the world will soon realise that we need to allow Israel to have Jerusalem as its capital city. We should support this so that our embassy can move from Tel Aviv and fly our flag in Jerusalem with pride. I would like to salute my flag hosted in Jerusalem.

 

Madam Chairperson, I will not belabour the point, but just to say that I hope our diplomats serving around the world, are not forgotten even as we make the budget. This budget we are passing will sufficiently represent the interest of Zambia so that when our diplomats can sit at the table and they will not be considered as coming from an impoverished society. They can find resources that can best represent and activate what we require in education, health, transport, Information Communication Technology (ICT) etcetra.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr M. K. Tembo: Ema ma summary aya!

 

Amb. Malanji (Kwacha): Madam Chairperson, …

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema cadres aya!

 

Amb. Malanji: ... I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the vote for this ministry. Straightway, I want to make my declaration that I support this vote. I want to commend the hon. Minister as number one diplomat. With our movements around the continent, we get sentiments that there is total commitment from your services. Off course, the quick polishing up of your French will definitely be an added advantage.

 

J’ais connais que le pay francophone sont trés content et touché …

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Amb. Malanji: ... avec vôtre geste.

 

Mr Malama: Ati shani nomba apo ba mudala?

 

Amb. Malanji: Vous eté maintenant le Ministres sant frontier.

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Please, ambassador use official language.

 

Amb. Malanji: Thank you very much Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Chabi: Ema ambassador aya!

 

Mr Ngulube: Ama Minister in waiting.

 

Amb. Malanji: I was basically just trying to commend the hon. Minister in his prowess to articulate not only in one language. As you know, Madam Chairperson, when you go out there, the numbers of our friends from the francophone are more than our numbers. We are just a few numbers of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and off course dotted ones up there like Ghana and a few others.

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia is one country that has been very pragmatic in implementing all programmes and protocols that we have appended our signature to. I know it is a general concept. I am speaking as somebody who is a member of the International Relations and Conflict Management. Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) is perceived to have a tighter grip on its members than SADC, but there is one observation which we must look at. There are less conflicts in SADC than in the upper regions. One other factor that we have to look at is the sovereignty of these countries that we are dealing with. Zambia has bilateral and multilateral relations with these countries and we are alive to the fact that these countries must exhaust the act of priori promoto. In the case of Zimbabwe, SADC and even Zambia which as a nation is more in the line with security in SADC, had to wait to make sure Zimbabwe exhausted the local channels. It would have been folly for us to react. Even in a given status, be sports or any organisation, when you rush to court, they will ask you whether you have exhausted all other channels available for you go to the ultimate.

 

Dr Wanchinga greeted the backbenchers.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister of General Education …

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: …I see that you are trying to create a village there.

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Allow the Ambassador to debate. Amb. Malanji, please continue.

 

Amb. Malanji: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your protection. Like I was saying, in any organisation, …

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members!

 

Amb. Malanji: …the apex body of reference has to make sure that a country has exhausted all other channels. SADC would not just get involved in the Zimbabwe issue without seeing which direction the country was going. In Zambia, we have made this mistake before. There was a time when we supported Joshua Nkomo and we had to try hard to get good relations with the Mugabe regime on a count back. That equally happened with Angola. Our shoulders were leaning more on the National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA) and we had sour relations with Angola for a long time. Several times in this House, I have inquired as to whether we have any means to have forensic audits in the input of our people in foreign missions.

 

Madam Chairperson, from the Budget, we can see that we are spending quite a big chunk of money. Zambia has to be marketed. I am speaking as President of the African Golf Confederation and I have travelled quite well. I have gone to countries where I would find quite a good number of people who would want to market their countries when there is a big conference. Sometimes, I would be disappointed to find that there is no one from Zambia. Are we looking at how many commercial attachés we have in this country? I would not be surprised to find that most of the people in these missions are not communicating with the Head Office because they say, “Ngaulelanda sana, kuti bakuchita recall.”

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Meaning?

 

Amb. Malanji: Madam Chairperson, I mean what I am saying.

 

Laughter

 

Amb. Malanji: Madam Chairperson, if the hon. Minister checks, he will observe that some of these missions will only have two note verbale in a month. One will be for salaries and the other for acknowledging receipt. After that, there will be nothing more with this kind of money we are spending, people have to be on their toes to make sure that they sweat for it. Let us not have people going to foreign missions for three to four years on holiday. The money has to be paid back through service delivery.

 

Madam Chairperson, all being equal, annually, one would expect that the head of a mission will be submitting to the line ministry notches of each and every individual who is serving in their mission. That is the only way we can have our people in foreign missions accountable for their services. This is better than waiting for the contracts to end and then we start looking at how people have performed in these missions. With those few words, I support the vote.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The Deputy Minister for Lusaka Province (Mr Mwakalombe): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the estimates of revenue and expenditure for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 

Madam Chairperson, having been a diplomat for this country, I feel it is necessary that I add my voice to this vote. Zambia is known for its good governance. Countries such as South Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe emulate Zambia. Our neigbouring countries are seeing how Zambia is transforming. In supporting the policy statement by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, I want to mention that our diplomats in the foreign missions are working tirelessly to make sure that we achieve what we are already seeing today.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is very important to this nation. When we see investors coming to Zambia, we think they search for Zambia on Google. These investors learn about Zambia through our men and women who are in the diplomatic missions, who are working tirelessly to ensure they attract investors to come to Zambia. The only way they can continue attracting these investors is through what we say about Zambia. If we portray a negative picture about Zambia, it will be difficult for the people in the diplomatic missions to attract these investors. The Minister of Foreign Affairs, working together with His Excellency, the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, is trying to transform the diplomats from talking about politics to economic issues. We have actually seen the benefits of this.

 

Madam Chairperson, in Lusaka, we have a company which is making porcelain tiles which no other country in Africa is able to produce. That has been achieved through the trips which His Excellency, the President, has been undertaking. Indeed, the President and the Minister of Foreign Affairs are the mirrors of this country. As such, it is very important that our President, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the diplomats continue to engage other Heads of State in different regions to bring investment to our country.

 

Madam Chairperson, the responsibility of building a good image for our country is not only for the President, the Minister of Foreign affairs and the people serving in the foreign missions. It is the responsibility of all of us as Zambians, regardless of our political affiliations. It is from these activities that we are going to see other organisations coming into our country to create the jobs that we talk about.

 

Madam Chairperson, jobs do not come from heaven. They are created by building a good image of the country because this gives confidence to the investors. As such, every citizen is obligated to build a good image of the country for the purpose of creating investment that will in turn create jobs for the people.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs must have a huge budget because the officers need to travel. For instance, countries like Russia and China are huge, and for diplomats to travel from one city to another, we need to invest in the ministry. A company can only make more profit when it invests in its products and that is the only way it can expand. Therefore, we need to invest in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs so that we can see meaningful development in the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to commend the hon. Minister for the way he has been able to interact with other people in the region. One of the debators said that we should have engaged Zimbabwe. Zambia is a signatory to many protocols and one of them is the United Nations (UN) Charter, which states that we must respect sovereignty of other countries. Whilst we appreciate that Zambia should play a role in other activities, we can only advice. We cannot carry guns and go to another country and force a particular President to step down. We have been conducting ourselves in a prudent manner after all Zambia is an oasis of peace and democracy.

 

Madam Chairperson, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, acted well by not issuing a statement on the affairs of another country. If he had done that, it would have created a bad image of the country. However, he and his colleagues in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) met and discussed how they could assist the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Zimbabwe.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have seen an increase in tourism activities because the diplomats are working tirelessly to build the image of this country. When I was a diplomat, it was easy to market Zambia because it is a peaceful nation and peace should never be taken for granted. Therefore, apart from its location, peace has been a key component for attracting investment in the country.

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwakalombe: For this reason, our President is confidently able to convince other Presidents to invest in Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, every well-meaning Zambian and hon. Member of this House must support the budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs because it is key to our development.

 

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to this very important Head, which I totally support.

 

Madam Chairperson, missions abroad exist for the good of the people of Zambia. As such, those who represent this country should behave in a professional manner and possess good credentials for them to lift the Zambian flag high. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs travels abroad and in his tour of duty, he signs documents. Therefore, I feel he should have appeared on the Sunday Interview to explain what he does when he travels abroad.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister stated that the African Union (AU) Passport would ease the movement of people in Africa. When people who visit this country are not well handled, he should be able to condemn such acts. For example, when an aero plane was prevented to land at Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe Airport in Ndola because of one man who was in there, other people on board were inconvenienced and he should have condemned that bad act. Also, when he signed the Economic Development Co-operation Fund Agreement in South Korea, he should have explained to the people of Zambia how they would benefit from it. Furthermore, if it is true that he had gone to Saudi Arabia and received assorted office equipment worth over US$500,000, …

 

Mr D. Mumba: Question!

 

Mr Jere: … he could have explained how this equipment will be distributed to schools or Government institutions.

 

Madam Chairperson, the activities being undertaken by the people in the missions abroad need to be revisited. There is also need to rehabilitate the infrastructure in the missions abroad as highlighted in the Auditor-General’s Report. Indeed, it is very sad because some of them look like chicken runs. This portrays a very bad picture of the country and one wonders if they are occupied by people or not. In this regard, something has to be done.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regard to business opportunities, I feel that there is need for the people that are sent abroad to explain the policies of this country abroad, and the policies of those countries they are. However, many are times when we see people or investors coming here to take advantage of the good tax holiday that we offer to these foreigners, but not encouraging Zambians going to invest where there are opportunities. Therefore, I feel we need to intensify this by letting the members of the public know about the opportunities areas.

 

For example, with regard to tourism, there are attachés stationed in the foreign mission, but I feel that these people have not done much. The people who come to visit one of the Wonders of the World, the Victoria Falls, are misled thinking that it is in South Africa. Some of them think that the Victoria Falls is only in Zimbabwe. Probably, this is because of the adverts on our tourist sites that are going on in some of these countries. They only know of Zambia when it comes to soccer. People do not know the other wonderful sites that we have. We have a variety of species in terms of wildlife, but we do very little to publicise this, so that people can come and have a feel of what we have.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me now to talk about international conferences. When we attend these international conferences in various countries, I have observed that people would put up desks where people would stop and buy something that is coming from another country. For example, if one went to Bangladesh, they find people from Pakistan showcasing their country. However, this does not happen with the people we send to represent us abroad. They are supposed to take keen interest in whatever is happening in these countries in order to market our country and what we have in terms of natural resources.

 

Madam, allow me now to talk about the issues of security in the Great Lakes Region. Indeed, Zambia is a member to so many organisations in the region. However, it is sad that when bad things are happening, we do not condemn these bad activities that are happening in the region and yet we are a recipient of so many refugees when something goes wrong in their countries.

 

For example, there is unrest in Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), and over 5,000 refugees are entering our country. How have we taken that? Is it business as usual. We should take a leaf from what Botswana is doing. Today, the President of Botswana is praised for what he stands for. When something goes wrong in the region, as the situation was in Zimbabwe he is the first one to. However, here in Zambia, we waited until things got worse. People reacted badly by indicating that they did not want any help from the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) organisation. This is because they were told that it was Zimbabwe’s problem and was best solved by the Zimbabweans themselves, and yet, Zambia belongs to such organisations that should stand and point out a wrong.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would have loved the hon. Minister to comment on the issue of the African Forum for Former African Heads of State. I thought that this organisation was supposed to be a reservoir of wisdom. Whenever there is a conflict, these former Heads of State should stand up and give direction or advice to the Continent. However, many are times when we see them being harassed.

 

Not long ago, probably in 2012, former President Rupiah Banda was mistreated at Kenneth Kaunda International Airport when he was about to go to South Africa for his routine medical checkup. We saw the clip on television. And yet, these are the people that are supposed to be uniting and coordinating conflicts so that they bring peace where there is no peace.

 

Madam Chairperson, we would want to see that when people are in power and they leave power, they should be able to be given that responsibility of being a guide and not somebody that takes a centre stage to destabilize the country.

 

As I conclude, Madam Chairperson, I would like to caution the Patriotic Front (PF) Government not to continue sending cadres in foreign missions as a token of appreciation. As a country we tend to lose out. It is high time that we sent people on merit.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, the speaker who debated before me, to be specific, Hon. Nkombo, talked about the diplomatic school. Before these people are sent abroad, they should be trained so that they know which issue they can comment on and which issue they cannot, instead of just sending cadres just for the sake of having people in missions abroad. This is a great disservice to the country.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): I am most grateful, Madam Chairperson, for the opportunity given to me to debate the Vote that is on the Floor of this august House. Considering that a number of issues have already been raised by my colleagues, I will be as brief as possible.

 

The first point I would like to advance to the hon. Minister is to ask him to help us understand what he considers as his success criteria in his ministry. This is because we get worried very time he comes here and wants to call a visiting Head of State or the President visiting another country, as one of the successes of this Government’s Foreign Policy. If I may ask, are we counting activities of people traveling or can we not move towards outputs and outcomes? I do not think other countries count the number of visits at any cost. For example if a country like the United States of America (USA) counted the number of visits that are made by the Secretary of State who travels almost every time, would that not be the success criteria for the US Government? How many successes would they have scored on earth?

 

Madam Chairperson, without giving us the outputs and outcomes of those meetings or international engagements, we get worried every time the hon. Minister indicates that we are successful as a country because this Head of State or that one came, or Zambia attended a certain meetings.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes!

 

Mr Belemu: He should help us understand. Is it the number of missions that he is counting or is it the visits that he is counting or is it the levels of engagement? What is the correct combination?

 

The second point I wish to talk about, Madam Chairperson, is that a country, we have, for a while now, been entering into international agreements or signing or agreeing to protocols. However, when the Minister goes back to his office he is aware that there is a backlog. We have either not domesticated or ratified them as a country. In the first place, what was the use of entering into agreements that we are not interested in or we are dragging our feet to domesticate? We can review that position, for example, by taking an audit which of the protocols are relevant to our situation. I think it is important that we do that.

 

So often, we are told about Zambia signing this and that agreement, but how many of such agreements can we correctly say that as a country we have domesticated and the people know and are aware of. Of course, I am aware that now the law has changed under the Constitution of Zambia Act No. 2 of 2016, that ratification of international agreements should come through Parliament. However, if we referred to the backlog, we will realise that we entered into some arrangement of some kind, and some of those have not been ratified. That is a matter of concern because in the first place why did we have to agree to such?

 

Madam Chairperson, the third point I would like to talk about is that we quite agreed to the hon. Minister’s proposition that we need to correctly promote Zambia or speak well about it, but can we also refine our international engagements …

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1810 hours until 1830 hours.

 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Mr Belemu: Madam Chairperson, before we went for tea break, I was advancing a point that we agree to the preposition that we must speak well about our country. However, I want to inform the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs that the trouble is that we do not agree with some of the Patriotic Front (PF)’s policy prepositions. I will give two examples to that effect,.

 

Madam, in the early days of the PF Government, they went to Sudan, brought the party in Sudan under Omar al-Bashir, entered into an agreement with him and started sending youths to Sudan.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Belemu: When we look at the politics as things are at the moment in the world, Sudan is one of the countries in Africa that the United States of America has categorised as sponsor of terrorism. How do they expect us to agree with them and expect us to speak well about such a policy, where at some point, they had linked up with the known dictatorships on the continent? I would like to say that we do not agree with that position. This news was in the media that we hosted them. As far as we know, they have not gone back or they have changed the position in that regard.

 

Madam Chairperson, the second example of where we may not agree with them or maybe not speak with the same language is that at some point, they are propelling Taiwan as a separate state other than being one policy China. At some point, they reviewed to come back to one China policy, and yet, they never came back to us, as country to tell us that …

 

Mr Kalaba rose.

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Please sit down, hon. Minister. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mbabala is debating and he is giving his view. However, we all believe that we can speak on the One China Policy. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs will have an opportunity to expand on that. I will allow the hon. Member to debate because he is trying to advance a point. The Government position is clear and has been propounded many times that it is One China policy. Therefore, let him debate and advance his view. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs will have an opportunity to restate the Government position.

 

May the hon. Member for Mbabala continue.

 

Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Belemu: Madam Chairperson, the point I was advancing is clear. When they reversed to go to One China Policy, they never communicated to members of the public that they had renounced their earlier position. Apart from that, there are so many of the policy positions that they have not communicated to us. Is it a question of their capacity to communicate to the public or what?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Belemu: For instance, if they ask me or anyone, who is interested in international media, they will tell that the new administration in the United States of America is on Syria, they will tell you what the Russian position is on Syria and they will tell you what Saudi Arabia’s is on Syria. How come Zambian nationals do not know most of the policy positions that the PF have engaged themselves into as a Government?

 

Madam, the point I am making is that at some point, they need to conduct their foreign policy in broad day light and be open about it. There is nothing secret about your foreign policy position on issues including what is obtaining in the region. For instance, there is nothing to be shy about stating your position on Congo DRC or Zimbabwe so that as a national travels or engage in other international engagements, they will be aware of what the country’s position is on issues.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Belemu: This is true of our diplomacy as well because a number of them do not know what Zambia’s five selling points. Each one of the diplomats that represent Zambia will say different things because they do not know them. They will not put them in the category or order the Government or a country would prefer them to be.

 

Madam Chairperson, the point I am driving at is that it is high time our foreign policy was communicated to us and made in broad day light as opposed to behaving or acting like it was a secret society that can only be conducted by a few selected people in the cargo of the light.

 

Madam, for example, we knew that South Africa was engaged with issues obtaining in Zimbabwe in the last one week, but it was not clear about what level Zambia was engaged in. What was our position? Was it to step down or maintaining the status quo? These are the issues which hinder citizens from being positive about a country to enable them participate in international engagements particularly by the Government.

 

Madam, if my memory serves me right, I can still recall that when I was young and the former President, Dr Kaunda was addressing a conference of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) at Mulungushi Rock of Authority or the Mulungushi Conference Centre, he would state exactly where we stood in terms of the Eastern and the Western Block on major international issues.

 

If we ask this Government what their position is on North Korea, no one will tell us exactly what our position North Korea is as country and no knows. In the past, we would listen and we would know whether we aligned ourselves with the West or we are non-aligned on the matter. There are so many issues, which we do not know as to where we stand as a country.

 

Hon, Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Belemu: Madam, it is high time we transacted foreign policy in broad day light and let the citizens know where we stand on issues. For instance, a number of countries issue what is called ‘travel alerts’. They will warn their citizens not to go to a certain country because they suspect there is likely to be a problem.

 

Mrs Chonya: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Belemu: Madam, not too long ago, some countries like Botswana and others warned the nationals not to go Zimbabwe, but what was our position? Did we warn our citizens not to travel to that country? There was no position. There are travel alerts, which they are very familiar with. Why do we not do that? We have left our citizens think about what we stand for on their own. Those are matters of concerns.

 

Madam, a lot has been said about the quality and the level the diplomats and staff that we send in missions abroad. Let me highlight one thing. Is it not embarrassing for a mission with ten members of staff, less or around there to be having audit queries regularly? How can they fail to manage and entity of ten to twenty people? It is surprisingly for a mission to be appearing in the Auditor-General’s Report. On other hand, we are saying this mission is representing Zambia very well when they cannot account for the meager resources, which they receive from their country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I think it is high time the management of missions abroad was done correctly. Our missions abroad should be exemplary in terms of management because they are small entities representing this country. As far as we are concerned, they are the eyes into our country. How can we be having audit queries for the little resources that they are allocated? I think the management of those institutions goes to underscore what my colleagues earlier said. The people we are sending in foreign missions do not have the capacities to be in the positions they are being put.

 

Madam Chairperson, may I end by reiterating what my colleagues have said. I think we need to review some of the international bodies and organisations that we belong to. It does not make sense for the Government to keep saying that we are members and bound to this and that organisation as if this is for life. As a country, we have the capacity and responsibility to respond to issues as they arise in the international arena. When issues arise, even big countries respond and review their position on belonging to, for example, the European Union (EU) or North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO).

 

Why are we not reviewing our position on belonging to organisations such as the Southern African Development Community (SADC)? We understand that this organisation has been transforming itself over the years. In the early years of Zambia’s existence, we were part of the frontline states in the liberation struggle and that phase has passed. Therefore, when an organisation loses relevance and taste to a country, there is nothing to be shy about reviewing your position as a country.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Belemu: In this regard, I want to say that some organisations that we are members of have lost relevance to this country. We are spending a lot of money in terms of subscriptions and sending people to attend meetings that are irrelevant and are not adding any value to this country. There is nothing wrong with belonging to a smaller community where there is accountability, responsiveness, order, sincerity and real value gains for this country. There are some countries in the region that have opted not be members of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) or SADC. However, we want Zambia to cling to both of these organisations and appear to be gaining from them when we are actually losing out in the end.

 

Mr Sing’ombe interjected.

 

Mr Belemu: Can we review some of the international organisations that we have chosen to involve ourselves in.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, for real this time …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Belemu: … I want to talk about my earlier challenge regarding some of the protocols or international agreements that Zambia has not assented to, signed, entered into or domesticated. A basic example is the Paris Agreement on Climate Change. How much of that agreement have we incorporated in our domestic laws? We keep on passing the National Budget, but the ministries that are supposed to be in the frontline in the fight against climate change have no budget lines for such issues. These are the issues that concern us.

 

Madam Chairperson, we agree with the preposition to speak well of our country, but when the Government is supporting and applauding dictatorship on the African continent or elsewhere, we shall not be part of that. We are bound to say the truth and serve the people of Zambia to the best of our abilities.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for granting me this opportunity to support the budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I want to begin by saying that Zambia right now is ranking very high in terms of international standings. Everywhere you go, you are proud to be Zambian. People are even free to shake hands with you because they know you are coming from Zambia.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: As a proud Zambian who moves a lot around the globe, I have seen how some nationals of West African countries are treated in other countries. The moment you arrive at the airport and show immigration officers your Zambian passport, you are told to pass through. For some nationals, however, the moment their nationality is seen on the passport, they are told to wait for the police. Therefore, we have to be proud as Zambians for such a reputation out there. It is not everything that we should demonise about our country. Those in opposition should not paint this country black because one day they might actually be the ones to be removing that paint.

 

Mr Mulenga: God forbid!

 

Mr Ngulube: I have been told that God forbid because it will never happen.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, at the Nakonde/Tunduma border, there is a very serious strike by Tanzanian truck drivers. I believe the Ministry of Foreign Affairs can help work out modalities to ensure that such protests by foreign drivers in Zambia do not dent the image of this nation. We are aware that foreign drivers complain about the Zambia Police. I know the seriousness of these complaints because as hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central, I have had to intervene in some instances to help some foreigners who do not speak our language in explaining to the police.

 

Although this is not directly related to his ministry, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs could, however, help us talk to the officers on road blocks regarding the treatment of foreigners. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs explained which checkpoints were lawful and which ones are not supposed to be there. Therefore, let us help enhance the Zambian image by addressing this matter of foreign transporters complaining about harassment.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about the image of Zambia internationally when it comes to elections. I am sure we are all aware that the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is internationally respected for conducting free and fair elections in this country.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: I am sure that without the ECZ being free and fair, all of us would not have been here today.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, those that are questioning my remarks are actually telling us that there is something they did.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, allow me also to say we need to clear some of the perceptions that have been labeled against our country. Non-Government Organisations (NGOs) in this country are being accused of stealing donor funds. If we do not correct this impression …

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Ngulube, the word ‘stealing’ is unparliamentary.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, I apologise. I withdraw the word ‘stealing’ and replace it with ‘pocketing’. Some international organisations have complained that their funds are being misapplied or misappropriated by Zambian NGOs. I believe that if this is not properly handled, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will have a bigger battle trying to clear some of these allegations. We heard recently about how the Ministry of Health suffered a setback, whereby it was alleged that the money meant for the Ministry of Health were misappropriated by some directors who were convicted.

 

Madam Chairperson, as the people of Kabwe Central Constituency, we want to thank His Excellency, the President of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, for having intervened in the recent Zimbabwean crisis by sending His Excellency, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, the former President of Zambia, to speak to His Excellency, President Robert Mugabe for him to step down and pave way for a smooth political transition.

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, those who do not understand international law or relations will always question because there is nothing else they can do apart from questioning.

 

The Chairperson: Mr Ngulube, do you have facts that Dr Kaunda was given that task?

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, it was reported in the news.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, allow me to say …

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Members! Let him say what he wants to say.

 

Mr Ngulube: Allow me to say that I read it somewhere in one newspaper and I can even provide a copy of it. If it is not true, then I withdraw that statement, simple as that. However, we want to urge those who wanted to see strife in Zimbabwe to respect the views of the Zimbabwean people. Zimbabwe is a sovereign state and there is no way the people of Zambia or hon. Members of Parliament in Zambia can start dictating what should happen in the Zimbabwean Parliament or any other aspect of that country.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam, we respect the fact that Zimbabwe is a country on its own. Even when we want to comment on that country, we must be factual. We must respect its sovereignty. I was told that the President of Zambia went to Angola regarding this matter. I do not know whether that is true. I do not have facts, but I was told that he went to Angola to help deliberate on the political crisis in Zimbabwe. I also heard that he actually commended the President of Zimbabwe for having stepped down. If that is true, I want to thank our President for that.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to say that it has become very, very fashionable for us, hon. Members of Parliament to forget that we have limits in this House. It is not everything that we can talk about or comment on. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs knows their diplomatic channels on how to address some of the issues. I have heard in this Chamber, serious allegations levelled against our Head of State. Even when people cannot substantiate their claims, they still make them.

 

There are people who believe that the Republican President should not travel. There are people like that. Even when the President is our number one ambassador, some people believe that he should not do any work ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: ... and they also believe that if the President moves – I do not know why they are afraid.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, in supporting this Motion, let me say that hon. Members of Parliament should not lose sight of the fact that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Zambia is one of those missions that are highly respected abroad. It is not true that when you go abroad, Zambia is viewed as a bad country, as some people have suggested. I want to speak for myself. I have been abroad. I have been to countries like Belgium, which Hon. Nkombo mentioned, and I never saw any animosity towards our country. We have a mission in Belgium, Brussels. I have been to countries like the United Kingdom (UK) and China. I have been to countries where the Zambian missions are actually respected.

 

Therefore, it is our responsibility as Zambians, whether hon. Members of Parliament or not, to paint the correct image of our country when we go abroad. Let us not dent the image of the country and pretend that there are human rights abuses here. We cannot substantiate some of those allegations because if there were human rights abuses in Zambia, that has not been reported, I believe the international community would have stated them. When we held elections in August, 2016, the whole world celebrated and congratulated the President ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: ... for a very clean election. We are not going to run away from the truth. When it is true, we have to mention it here, with an open face. For those of you who do not respect election results, wait until you lose again.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank Hon. Kufakwandi, Hon. Garry Nkombo and Dr Malama. Amb. Malanji, Je voure merci Monsieur. Que de vous benis. Que la bonte du seigneur soit toujours avec toi. Merci.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Kalaba: Amb. Mwakalombe, ...

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, please translate for the record.

 

Mr Kalaba: I was only telling Amb. Malanji that may the peace and the grace of God be always with you.

 

The Chairperson: Repeat that, hon. Minister. Translate the French.

 

Mr Kalaba: I said: May the peace and the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Alright, you may continue.

 

Mr Kalaba: Je voure merci. Oh sorry, thank you so much.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kalaba: Amb. Mwakalombe, Hon. Jere, Hon. Belemu and Mr Tutwa Ngulube, thank you.

 

Madam Chairperson, I listened attentively, and I have summarised most of the things that they said in ten bullet points. I think these ten bullet points will capture most of the things that they said.

 

Madam Chairperson, one of the issues that was raised, was that the heads of missions do not carry the face of Zambia. That is to be looked at, but we believe, in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that most of those who are in the Foreign Service are very representative of who Zambia is, as a country. When sending people out, we do not look at where they come from, but their competence.

 

Madam, on the Southern African Development Community (SADC) challenges, SADC was branded a failure. That is not the correct position. I think before we say things, we need to do our research, especially ourselves, as hon. Members of this august House.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: There have been various areas where SADC has engaged in quiet diplomacy, including in Zimbabwe recently. Not everything diplomats do is publicised. In fact, most of the work of diplomats is done behind the scenes. Therefore, if you expect SADC to always stand on an anthill and say what they are doing, let me tell you that it does not work that way. For instance, I know that your leader, Hon. Nkombo, quite recently, wrote to SADC to complain about the electoral process in Zambia. If SADC is a failed organisation, why did he write to a failed organisation to answer his query or cry?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: It means that there is a page missing somewhere.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: SADC has always maintained that it will act on the basis of the constitutive acts of the SADC member states and the guidelines of member states. The role of SADC is not to interfere in the domestic politics of countries, but SADC will raise a red flag when they see that individual members are not adhering to their own individual constitutions. Comparing SADC and the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) is not only mischievous, but heavily erroneous because the situations are different. The situation that made ECOWAS go in Gambia is very different from the situation that SADC is faced with. We all know the history of what happened in Gambia. In the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), even as I speak now, there is a joint verification mechanism of SADC on the ground. I am not speaking as Harry Kalaba. I am speaking as the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: I am very privileged in such matters. Therefore, when I speak, I am not relying on social media. I am relying on facts because I am in those meetings.

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: As I said, it is important to get our facts correct. Yes, South Africa sent envoys, on behalf of SADC, to Zimbabwe. President Zuma did not send those envoys to represent South Africa. They were sent by the Chairperson, of SADC who is President Jacob Zuma, to represent SADC. Hon. Garry, it is not true that those envoys were chased at the airport. Those diplomats had a meeting with Army Commander, Chiwenga. They also had a meeting with President Mugabe. They had a three-hour thirty minutes meeting which was very successful.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: Therefore, to come to this House and allege that they were chased is frightening. I had goosebumps because if hon. Members of Parliament can rely heavily on social media and come to this respectable House and use that information, what about others? Let us curb our appetite to propel issues that are not real. Sometimes, we love lies. We love to propel – I withdraw the word “lies.” Sometimes we love falsehoods. We love peddling falsehoods, but that does not work. It has never worked in the electoral process. It has never worked in real life.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: If you rely on wrong statistics and begin opening your bottle of champagne, you should be ready for the ramifications.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, SADC is an organised organisation. Hon. Members, let us not even say what we are saying because just as Mr Tutwa Ngulube said, you are aspiring to lead Government and one day, it is the same body of SADC that you will have to affiliate with. Every day we have new member states joining the regional body. The Comoros has joined SADC. Burundi has also applied to join SADC. If SADC was moribund as you want to put it, why would other member states be joining? They are joining because we are a family. In SADC, we believe that we have to work together to help each other advance our common goals so that our SADC vision of 2030 is realised. The Regional Indicative Strategic Development Plan is to industrialise the SADC region so that there is value addition and get value for money in return. If that is not a vision you can support, but something you want to dwarf, then I sympathise with you.

 

Madam Chairperson, Mr Jere talked about the issues of donations in Saudi Arabia. I did not go to Saudi Arabia to receive that US $500,000 worth of equipment. In fact, what happened was that there was a non-governmental organisation (NGO) which is run by the King of Saudi Arabia. That NGO donated assorted equipment and foodstuffs, but it was not to a tune of US $500,000. It was only US $100,000. Let us learn to get our facts correct. It is important. This is Parliament and it is important for us to be factual.

 

Madam Chairperson, as regards tourism attaches not doing enough, I want to say that they are doing everything within their powers to promote our country’s tourism. I think that our tourism feed will agree with me that our tourism figures are going up. The hon. Minister responsible for tourism is here, and he will agree with me on what I am saying. In the last two years, we had about 700 tourists coming into Zambia, but now that number is rising to a million. That simply means that the people we have sent there are doing their rightful duties. It is important to give credit where it is due. It is good to talk, but let us not just talk for the sake of it.

 

Madam Chairperson, someone talked about success in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and how we should not just come to Parliament to talk. I think that the Government, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has done a lot. I cannot even itemise the successes that we have scored because they are quite plentiful.

Mrs Chonya: Mention five of them.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Mrs Chonya wants five of the successes we have scored. First of all, the number of tourists coming to Zambia has grown, Levy Mwanawasa Hospital is being expanded, we are constructing the Kalabo/Sikongo Road using money from the Bank for Economic Development in Africa (BADEA). We also have money from the Kuwait Fund, which is helping us build schools. Further, we have a water distribution project under the Forum on China–Africa Cooperation (FOCAC).

 

Hon. Government Members: yakwana five!

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, they are already five?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, there was an allegation that the PF was sending youths to be trained in Sudan. I want to say that we should be careful with some of the things we say. These are serious matters especially that they are bordering on another country, which might raise very serious issues. That is why those who have spent a lot of time researching on Foreign Affairs, like my brother Garry, are very careful not to mention states. It is very important that we do our research properly. There is what is called intra-party. For instance, the PF and the Africa National Congress (ANC) have a relationship. The PF and the Chinese Party have a relationship. I am sure even the hon. Members seated on the other side of the divide have all kinds of relationships which are not even going anywhere. Therefore, if we are going to come to this august House and talk just because we have been given fifteen minutes, let us do so, but with facts.

 

Madam Chairperson, some issues are bi-partisan. In fact, most of the issues in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs must be bi-partisan. We must be careful not to open up things that we may fail to close. Concerning the One-China Policy, Zambia has always upheld the One-China Policy because that is what we believe in and that is what we are practicing and we intend to continue living by. Zambia and China are all weather friends and we will ensure that this relation continues to grow and blossom for the good of the Zambian people and the Chinese people.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the audit queries, I want to say that where there are human beings, there will always be mistakes and queries. (While looking at the hon. UPND Members) In your own party, which is not in Government, you have your own troubles. Someone would ask why you are quarrelling even before you come into Government. That is because imiti ipalamine taibula ukushenkana. People that are working together will, from time to time, have friction. In terms of accounting, it is only true that we have done very well. Our records as Foreign Affairs are impeccable. We have reduced the audit queries by extremely huge figures. I wish I had the figures right here, but this is something I can still share with you colleagues. We have done very well because we had employed professional staff. It is because we recalled all those who were not qualified accountants and we sent qualified accountants from the Ministry of Finance. However, because we owe these missions, it is helping us to make sure they account for the money and that monies should be spent for the intended purpose.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to thank all hon. Members for debating the Vote for the ministry. There are some issues that I may not have responded to, but I believe that all the hon. Members who spoke, did so in the interest of the country, and that they mean well. They may have put it in a different language, but it is important for us to have the interest of Zambia first and when we cross the borders of Zambia, we must all be Zambian, not just in our passports, but also in spirit because this is the only country we have. Remember, the Lord our God has stopped creating countries. This is the country that we have. If we speak ill of it, then we are bringing it down. I have always said, and I will say it again. We are only as strong as we are united and we are only as weak as we are divided.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 17/01 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Headquarters – K53,594,420).

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3045, Activity 004 – Transportation of Diplomats – K12,000,000. Why is there is a huge increase in the allocation from K2,000,000 in 2017, to K12,000,000 in 2018.

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3045, Activity 004 – Transportation of Diplomats – K12,000,000, the increase is because of the number of diplomats who have finished their contracts and tour of duty and will be returning home.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3045, Activity 700 – Economic Diplomacy – nil. This year there was an allocation of K2,500,000, but there is nothing for 2018. Why has this not been budgeted for?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, Programme 3045, Activity 700 – Economic Diplomacy – nil, economic activities have now been stringed in other activities of the ministry.

 

I thank you.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and his colleagues who served in Cabinet are in bad standing with this country because there is a final judgement that they should pay the money that they received ...

 

The Chairperson: Mr Nkombo ...

 

Mr Nkombo: ... during the time when Parliament was dissolved.

 

The Chairperson: ... please take your seat.

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/02, 17/03 and 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/05 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Lilongwe – K8,706,430)

 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment Under 02, Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division I, by deletions of K489,350.00 and the substitution therefor of K631,012.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/05, as amended, ordered to stand to part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/06, 17/07 and 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Order on my left!

 

Interruptions

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Member for infrastructure, please sit in your seat if you are not. Leader of Opposition, help maintain calm there.

 

Mr Chitotela interjected.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, we are honourable.

 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, people are listening to us and watching us on TV. Let us maintain order.

 

VOTE 17/09 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Dar-es-Salaam – K10,594,290)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 005 Other Emoluments, by deletion of K9,838,980 and the substitution therefor of K10,043,753.00

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 17/09, as amended, ordered to stand to part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/10, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/11 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Moscow – K17,345,640)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division I, by deletion of K494,430.00 and the substitution therefor of K578,979.00

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/11, as amended, ordered to stand to part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/12 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Addis Ababa – K18,350,190)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division I, by deletion of K1,122,600 and the substitution therefor of K1,366,758.00

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/12, as amended, ordered to stand to part of the Estimates.

Votes 17/13, 17/15 and 17/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Chief Whip, I need you to help maintain order in the House. It becomes very difficult for us to conduct Business when the House is not attentive.

 

Mr Ngulube: Kambwili!

 

The Chairperson: Just where you are sitting, now, behind you.

 

Mr Musukwa signaled to the Members to be quiet.

 

Mr Nanjuwa: Nimwe abalepanga ichongo.

 

The Chairperson: Please manage that part of the House.

 

VOTE 17/20 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Stockholm – K17,138,220).

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Chairperson, with me here is a list of Cabinet Ministers who chewed Government funds of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) …

 

Laughter

 

They are twenty in number. Number one is Hon. Yaluma…

 

Mr Yaluma: Question!

 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Michelo: Number two, there is Hon. Kabanshi. Then number five, there is Mabumba…

 

The Chairperson: Order, order!

Mr Michelo!

 

Laughter

 

The Chairperson: Mr Michelo!

 

Mr M. K. Tembo: Go out!

 

The Chairperson: You will not be allowed to reduce the dignity of this House.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: If this conduct is repeated, I will have no choice, but to send you out of the House.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: We are conducting very serious Business. We are deciding the National Budget and you are obviously not taking this task as seriously as the people who sent you here want you to take this Business. You have no question on this Head.

 

Votes 17/20, 17/23, 1724 and 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/26 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Windhoek – K10,657,750).

 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head 17/26 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Windhoek under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001- Salaries Division I, by the deletion of K494,430.00 and the substitution therefor of K678,086.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 17/26, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/27 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Brussels – K29,464,850).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head 17/27 Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Brussels under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I, by the deletion of K2,471,860.00 and the substitution therefor of K1,110,889.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 005 – Salaries Division I – K2,471,860, what has necessitated the increase in man power to this mission.

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, the fluctuation is as a result of the dollar exchange rate.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/27, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/30 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Harare – K14,348,640).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head 17/30 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Harare Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of K411,240.00 and the substitution therefor of K704,380.00.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/30, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/32 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Geneva – K24,365,490).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head17/32 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Geneva Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of K1,016,740.00 and the substitution therefor of K1,098,578.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division 1 – K1,016,740. In 2017, there was an allocation of 1,106,945. In my earlier question, the hon. Minister said that it is because of the fluctuation in the dollar exchange rate. Why is it that the same dollar has not influenced this figure under this activity?

 

Mr Kalaba: Madam Chairperson, the decrease has been necessitated by the fact that the position of the First Secretary – Legal in Geneva was not accounted for and hence, the amendment which has been passed by the Minister of Finance.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/32, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Votes 17/33, 17/35, 17/36, 17/37, 17/39, 17/40 and 17/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/42 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Political Affairs Department – K4,945,750).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head17/42 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Political Affairs Department Under 01, Political Affairs Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of K2,471,860.00 and the substitution therefor of K2,803,829.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/42, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Votes 17/43, 17/45, 17/47, 17/48 and 17/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/50 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Kuala Lumpar – K20,928,080).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

 

1. Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of K1,441,000.00 and the substitution therefor of K1,010,071.00; and

 

1. Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 002 Salaries Division II, by the deletion of K33,600.00 and the substitution therefor of K43,600.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/50, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/51 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Tel Aviv– K14,985,520).

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head17/51 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Tel Aviv Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division II, by the deletion of K697,620.00 and the substitution therefor of K715,565.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/51, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

 Vote 17/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/54 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Seoul– K14,677,540).

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

 

1. Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of K552,900.00 and the substitution therefor of K562,719.00; and

 

1. Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 002 Salaries Division II, by the deletion of K33,600.00 and the substitution therefor of K43,795.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/54, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/56 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Canberra– K16,094,570).

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on17/56 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Canberra Under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 Salaries Division 1, by the deletion of K473,100.00 and the substitution of K573,905.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/56, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/57 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad Guangzhou – K13,294,290)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head 17/57 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad Guangzhou under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I, by the deletion of K471,960,00 and the substitution therefor of K499,385.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/57, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 17/58 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Dubai – K12,089,170)

 

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head 17/58 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Missions Abroad – Dubai under 02, Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000 Personal Emoluments, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I, by the deletion of K596,820.00 and the substitution therefor of K625,080.00.

 

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

 

Vote 17/58, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 17/59 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 21 – (Loans and Investment – Ministry of Finance – K10,238,300,250) and VOTE 37 – (Ministry of Finance – K3,458,706,800).

 

The Minister of Finance (Mr Mutati): Madam, chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to present my policy statement on the 2018 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Finance. In the debate, I will focus on Head 21, which is Loans and Investments and Head 37, the Ministry of Finance.

 

Madam Chairperson, the core mandate of the Ministry of Finance is responsible for the preparation and dispatch of the National Budget. Secondly, it is also responsible for economic management. Thirdly, it is responsible for resource mobilisation and forth, it is responsibile for financial management.

 

Madam, we have used the year, 2017, as the year of restoring fiscal fitness as a basis to accelerate it in 2018. In doing so, we are have focused on ensuring that we provide relief as much as possible to business and the pensioners.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, we managed to dismantle arears owed to the suppliers of services and contractors, reducing it from K19.1 billion to under K10 billion. Of the provision of K1.6 billion meant for pensioners, we have thus far, been able to pay one K1.3 billion. In addition to support business and provide oxygen in the business environment we also declared this year, tax amnesty to the business environment, which has provided additional the life to business going forward. Therefore, that is a key strategic direction.

 

Madam, Chairperson, we have been focused on domestic resource mobilisation. In particular in 2017, we were able to appoint tax agents particularly for Value Added Tax. This simply means that we appointed the mining companies, the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation Limited (ZESCO) and the National Roads Fund agents, so that as they pay to contractors, they could help the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) to collect tax at source. This mechanism has worked extremely well.

 

Madam Chairperson, in addition, we have also been focused on the enforcement of minimising leakages of tax revenues particularly at the borders, by the employment of the single window. We have since done a number of things. It is, therefore, our expectation that, the budget target is going to be exceeded in 2017.

 

Madam, we have also been focused on the issue of affordability in terms of capital expenditure, a statement to which was rendered yesterday.  We are going to focus on finishing the ongoing projects before embarking on the new one including evaluating the projects for their economic impact, which has been a very key focus.

 

Madam Chairperson, in the areas restoring and fiscal consolidation for 2017, we have been focused particularly on inefficient expenditure especially the expenditure that was residing outside the budget. The reforms that we took in the energy sector on power tariff and fuel, including the reforms in agriculture under Famer Input Support Programme (FISP) has made sure the subsidies that have been removed has rendered the whole budget neutral in 2017. We believe this is a key variable in terms of restoring fiscal consolidation.  As a consequence of some of these actions that we have taken in 2017, we have been able to achieve stability in the ma

cro-economic environment. Only yesterday, the Central Bank took critical measures to adjust both the reserve and policy rates …

 

The Chairperson: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

_____

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

(Progress reported)

 

______

 

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 24^th November, 2017.