Friday, 13th October, 2017

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Friday 13th October, 2017

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_________

 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

 

Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Musukwa): Madam Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the Business it will consider next week.

 

Madam, on Tuesday, 17th October, 2017, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by Presentation of the Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue to debate on the Motion of Supply on the 2018 Budget.

 

Madam, on Thursday, 19th October, 2017, Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by Presentation of the Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will consider the Second Reading of the following Bills:

           

(i)         The Corporate Insolvency Bill, N.A.B No.9 of 2017; and

 

(ii)        The Companies Bill, N.A.B No.10 of 2017.

 

The House will, then, conclude the debate on the Motion of Supply on the 2018 Budget.

 

Madam Speaker, on Friday, 20th October, 2017, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will deal with the Presentation of the Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will, then, resolve into Committee of Supply to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

 

            Head 01 -        Office of the President – State House;

 

            Head 02 -        Office of the Vice-President;

 

            Head 03 -        National Assembly; and

 

            Head 04 -        Ministry of Gender.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

_________

 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 

ON THE POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. LIVUNE ON THURSDAY, 5TH OCTOBER, 2017 ON THE EXCLUSION OF SOME CHIEFS FROM THE SOUTHERN PROVINCE FROM THE PAYROLL OF THE GOVERNMENT OF ZAMBIA WITHOUT CAUSE

 

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mr Sichalwe): Madam Speaker, I thank you for providing me an opportunity to issue a statement in response to the point of order that was raised by Hon. Livune on Thursday, 5th October, 2017 on the exclusion of some chiefs from the Southern Province from the payroll of the Government of Zambia without cause. The point of order was and I quote:

 

“Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order on the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, who is here seated comfortably.

 

Mr Speaker, some chiefs from the Southern Province have been excluded from the payroll of the Government of the Republic of Zambia without cause. I have in mind, my chief in Kazungula, Chief Mukuni, Chief Hamusonde of Bweengwa and Chief Mwanachingwala of Mazabuka.

 

Is the hon. Minister in order to have excluded our chiefs from the payroll when he knows too well that they are fully entitled to this money paid by we, their children. I seek your serious ruling, Sir.”

 

Mr Speaker’s ruling was and I quote:

 

“My ruling is that, I will allow the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, in the course of next week, to clarify the issue.”

 

Madam Speaker, I wish to clarify as follows: all the chiefs from the Southern Province, including Chief Mukuni of Kazungula, Chief Hamusonde of Bweengwa and Chief Mwanachingwala of Mazabuka are on the Government payroll for receipt of subsidies. None of them has been excluded from the payroll.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Mwamona nomba!

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, there are, however, situations where administrative challenges may arise leading to a particular chief or chiefs not receiving subsidies in a particular month or months. When this situation arises, the ministry investigates the case and addresses it appropriately.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement given by the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs which is in response to a point of order that was raised. So, questions should be specific to this statement and the point of order.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, Chief Mwanachingwala is not only my chief, but my father. Therefore, I need to declare interest before I ask my question. The hon. Minister is aware that my father has been having health challenges. He admitted that due to some challenges, situations have arisen where they have failed to pay the chiefs the subsidises. Could he kindly explain in detail what these challenges may be? This is because some chiefs continuously get their subsidises while others do not.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to know that challenges are different in nature and others may be related to bank transfers.

 

Mr Kambwili: Mulatumona kwati tuli baice emwe.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, continue, hon. Minister.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, I indicated in my response that we do have administrative challenges and if a chief has not received any pay, that is brought to our attention and we investigate. However, individually, they differ. I do not see why our colleagues from down south should cry the loudest because we have situations in other areas where they have had challenges also. I can give typical examples of some issues over which we have taken remedial measures. These involved Senior Chiefs Mushota of Kawambwa in Luapula, Muchinda, Malama in Mambwa, Kalaba in Mansa, Mpuka of Luangwa, Mpepo of Mpika, Fungulwa of Lufwanyama and Chief Shibwalya Kapila in Lunte. So, when chiefs do not receive their subsidises, our office has an open door policy. They can come and log in a claim and we will subsequently attend to that claim.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Madam Speaker, my question was very precise. It was about my beloved Chiefs Mukuni, Hamusonde and Mwanachingwala. I expected the hon. Minister to have gone further to interrogate, and give the reasons why they were excluded.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, I indicated that we experience administrative challenges. As we stand, these chiefs have not been removed from the payroll, and we have since paid them. However, we still have a backlog of up to September.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Michelo (Bweengwa): Madam Speaker, this is a very serious issue concerning our leaders. This is simply because these are our traditional leaders, and their statuses are thoroughly documented. If Chiefs Mwanachingwala, Hamusonde of Bweengwa and Mukuni are facing challenges, when is the Government going to pay them their arrears?

 

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Katombola, you have asked your question and now it appears you want to ask another question through a point of order. I have a list of other hon. Members who wish to ask questions. Please, allow them to ask those questions. If you feel that there is something you needed to ask, you can ask your neighbour to ask on your behalf.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Michelo: Madam Speaker, I was saying our chiefs are Zambians and traditional leaders. I come from Chief Hamusonde in Bweengwa. Could the hon. Minister tell us and the nation when the Government is going to pay the three chiefs their salary arrears?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, before the hon. Minister stands to answer, he has clearly stated that there are sometimes administrative challenges that lead to some chiefs not being paid.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: He has gone further to say this is not specific to one area of the country …

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: … but it can happen to any other area and chief. Please, bear that in mind as you ask questions.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, I hinted that we have taken remedial measures and payments have been processed though, as we stand, we have a backlog of up to September.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Fungulwe (Lufwanyama): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that other traditional leaders including Chief Fungulwe in Lufwanyama were affected due to administrative challenges. However, have they been paid their arrears?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister has just answered that question.

 

Mr Mulunda (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, is this the first time the hon. Minister is being asked this question in this House?

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, indeed, this is the first time I am being asked this question on the Floor of the House. This is because all the other chiefs whom we have attended to before have freely engaged my office, and claims have been completed for us to take remedial action. So, to solve this problem, I urge our chiefs to engage our office so that we can address these situations.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, it is in public domain that there are three chiefs who had a problem inviting the Government to their traditional ceremonies. Could the hon. Minister state whether this is why the Government refused to pay these chiefs their subsidies. Could the hon. Minister give a straight answer.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

That is why bamumina.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, it is strange that the hon. Member, who knows that the Government does not need to be invited to a traditional ceremony is asking such a question. The hon. Member may wish to know that these subsidies are not salaries. Therefore, we will not have an exact date on which to pay them. The subsidies are meant to assist the various chiefs run the affairs of their chiefdoms. Chiefs are agents of the Government. This is why they are paid these subsidies. I would not want to speculate on the relationship between the Government and the chiefs from the Southern Province. I also do not want to speculate on the chiefs not being paid their subsidies, and them not inviting the Government to their traditional ceremonies.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Speaker, I want to know how long it takes the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to detect these challenges being faced by the chiefs.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, I did say that there are electronic transfers into various bank accounts. This is why I was encouraging chiefs who will be affected at a particular time, to quickly engage our office, and not to let the hon. Members come and deal with their problems.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, we need unity in this country. Therefore, the establishment of chiefs should be non-partisan. Are subsidies part of the sanctions for chiefs who are considered partisan?

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, let me refer to Article 168 (2) of the Constitution, which states that:

 

“A chief who seeks to hold office in a political party or election or appointment to a State Office, except that of councillor, shall abdicate the chief’s throne.”

 

Madam Speaker, this particular Article is talking about how a chief who seeks to hold office in a political party will have to abdicate the throne. Going forward, we advise the chiefs not to be partisan because they are a unifying factor in their respective chiefdoms. That is because their chiefdoms comprise different people from various political parties. Their role is to bring all these people together.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Speaker, allow me to prelude my question by indicating that it is demeaning to assert that the hon. Members of Parliament from the Southern Province that they are crying foul when we are just performing the duties that our people have asked us to. This role, we are performing, is simply to bring people’s views here. Hon. Minister, I did not take that kindly. However, I will proceed with my question.

 

Would the hon. Minister be in a position to clarify assertions and perceptions feared by the public out there that the Government is not remitting these subsidies to Chiefs Mukuni and Hamusonde because the Patriotic Front (PF) considers them to be partisan. This is because the two chiefs were attending court sessions for the then incarcerated and persecuted leader of the United Party for National Development (UPND) Mr Hakainde Hichilema when in fact, they were attending those court sessions in their capacity as Mr Hichilema’s parents. Further, in the case of Chief Mwanachingwala, the Government has not remitted those subsidies for five months now, yet it comes to tell us about administrative challenges. Is the Government able to give us a more serious answer than this pedestrian answer that the hon. Minister has given us.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Choma Central Parliamentary Constituency, you withdraw the words pedestrian and more serious if you want me to allow the hon. Minister to answer your question.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, is the Government in a position to give a more serious answer that befits the decorum of this House?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, I asked you to withdraw your reference to the hon. Minister’s answers as pedestrian and not serious. Could you withdraw that part so that we make progress.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I withdraw.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Very good.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, could the hon. Member rephrase his question.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma Central Parliamentary Constituency, could you restate the question a bit more briefly.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, let me use simple English. I would like the hon. Minister to clarify or to tell the citizens who are of the view that the Government is not releasing the subsidies to Chiefs Mukuni and Hamusonde because the Patriotic Front (PF) considers them partisan. This is premised on the fact that they were attending Hakainde Hichilema’s court sessions when, in fact, the two chiefs are blood relatives, and it is in that regard that they were attending court sessions. Hakainde Hichilema is their son, and so they visited him in the same way, they visited Mr Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba (GBM) and others. In the case of Chief Mwanachingwala, ...

 

Mr Kabanda rose.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Member for Serenje, I do not know why you are standing. Please sit down.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kabanda resumed his seat.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma, you may finish your question.

 

Mr Mweetwa: ... the fact is that, the Government has not remitted these subsidies for at least five months now. In terms of Chapter 12 of the Constitution, this House should not be misled. My question was whether the Government is in a position to clarify those perceptions. Let me not make your life more difficult than it already is.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, I will not direct my response to people’s perceptions concerning our chiefs attending court sessions. However, I have indicated that we do have administrative challenges. Chief Shibwalya Kapila of Lunte District is running to six months of not receiving his subsidies. So, these are the administrative challenges we are experiencing.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister …

 

Interruptions

 

Madam first Deputy Speaker: Order, on my right!

 

Mr Ndalamei: … how much Chief Mukuni, Chief Hamusonde and Chief Mwanachingwala, in the Southern Province, are owed.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Sikongo is asking the hon. Minister.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: He is not asking everyone on my right.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, you may respond.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, the point of order was on whether or not the chiefs have been excluded from the payroll.

 

As regards the question from the hon. Member for Sikongo, I am not in a position to give the exact outstanding figure because these chiefs have different amounts to be paid on different files. Others have advances while others have loans. So, I cannot give a concrete figure without recourse to records. 

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, there are 280 established chiefs in Zambia.

 

In the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, there is an establishment of chief accountant, principal accountant and internal auditor. For your own information, I was a Government accountant for many years, and I know that the Ministry of Finance does not directly pay people but releases a block figure to a ministry.

 

Mr Nkombo: Yes!

 

Mr Muchima: Can hon. Minister explain why chiefs always experience these challenges? You mentioned different chiefs in different areas that have been affected by these challenges, why can they not be ironed out?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, give two or three examples of these challenges. Proceed.

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, we have had situations where wrong account numbers have been given to the ministry. For example, there is one province where an account number belonging to some council town clerk was given and it was discovered that he was drawing salaries on behalf of the chief.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Sichalwe: Having identified such issues, we could not proceed with such payments.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Ms Kasune (Keembe): Madam Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister has got to do with dates of payouts. Could he clarify whether or not chiefs are paid at the same time? Changing this method could perhaps prevent some of these discrepancies in future.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, as and when we receive the funds, we remit to various chiefs in various areas.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kakubo (Kapiri Mposhi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister admits that his ministry has had some challenges. However, for Chief Mukuni and Chief Hamusonde, specifically, did the ministry take time to write to them to explain the problem, and engage, them as a matter of courtesy, instead of leaving things hanging? I would like to know.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, all chiefs are treated equally.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sichalwe: When we come across such issues, our role is to take remedial actions so that we uniformly deal with such issues.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you. 

 

Mr Mbulakulima (Milenge): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that this problem is not peculiar to just one province. In Milenge, for instance, one of my chiefs has not received subsidies for the past six months. What is the average number of months that the Government owes traditional leaders across the country so that we are able to compare?

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, when these issues are brought to our attention, we attend to them. When they are not brought to our attention many months will go by.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kambita (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, from the many questions posed, it is clear that there is a problem around chiefs’ subsidies. I have a case in point in Zambezi East concerning Chief Mpidi and Chief Ishima.

 

Madam Speaker, we asked the very district commissioner to summon them to his office where they stated clearly that they were removed from the subsidies payroll because of their perceived support for the Opposition.

 

Hon. Minister, could you please give us a specific reason as to why these two chiefs were removed from the subsidies payroll? Is it for the same reasons that the district commissioner advanced or will you investigate further? 

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister was responding to a specific point of order. 

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: He was to state whether or not certain chiefs had been removed from the payroll and he has very clearly stated that no chief had been removed from the payroll. If the hon. Member wishes to get answers to that particular question, I suggest he files in a question.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kundoti (Luena): Madam Speaker, for a chief to go six months without subsidies indicates to me that this ministry lacks professional seriousness.

 

Madam Speaker, a mistake or a challenge is acceptable for a month or two. Thereafter, it ought to be rectified. Six months is way too long. Hon. Minister, can you tell this House what steps you are taking to deal these challenges?

 

Mr Sichalwe: Madam Speaker, I did mention that my ministry has an open-door policy. We do have provincial chiefs’ officers in all the provinces. I do not think that any of our chiefs can fail to engage our provincial chiefs’ officers to bring to our attention a lapse of such nature.

 

To solve this problem, I am encouraging our chiefs to be engaging our provincial officers whenever they have issues in their chiefdoms.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

INFLUX OF ASYLUM SEEKERS FROM THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO INTO ZAMBIA

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Madam Speaker, I sincerely thank you for giving me this opportunity to render a ministerial statement to this august House and the nation at large on the issue of the influx of asylum seekers from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) into Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House and nation at large that our country is facing a humanitarian emergency following the influx of asylum seekers into Zambia from the DRC. Most asylum seekers are entering the country mainly through Chiengi District in Luapula Province. We have registered 3,700 asylum seekers since 30th August, 2017. The number of Congolese refugees who have entered Zambia since January, 2017, has since risen to over 6,100. This is the highest number of refugees to enter the country over the past five years. The total number of Congolese refugees in Zambia has now increased to about 30,000. These, together with refugees from Burundi, Somalia and other countries, as well as the former refugees from Angola and Rwanda, bring the total number of persons of concern in the country to over 60,000.

 

Madam Speaker, the main cause of the recent influx of asylum seekers from the DRC is instability in that country, arising largely from the protracted governance crisis that has engulfed the DRC, and owing to failure to hold presidential and general elections on schedule. There seems to be widespread unrest and violence perpetrated by some ethnic and political groups. This has forced many Congolese people to seek safety across the border, especially in Luapula Province of Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, about twenty-five to 100 people have been crossing from the DRC into Zambia every day since September, 2017. This trend is expected to continue, as the situation in the DRC is projected to remain volatile. The number of asylum seekers entering Zambia from the DRC could, however, increase significantly with any deterioration in the security situation in that country. A worst scenario would be a mass influx of asylum seekers of more than 40,000 from the DRC into Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, the majority of asylum seekers received so far has been predominantly children and women, including expecting mothers. The asylum seekers have strained the health and other social infrastructure, particularly in Chiengi and Nchelenge Districts. There is also a lack of shelter and adequate clean water supplies, especially at the border entry points and, indeed, in the refugee temporal settlements. An assessment carried out by the Ministry of Health and partners has observed acute to mild malnutrition among the refugee children, three of whom have since died as a result, while one died of malaria.

 

Madam Speaker, the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees launched a refugee response immediately an increase in the number of asylum seekers was noticed. The response is based on the Preparedness and Contingency Response Plan that had been formulated in anticipation, in conjunction with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and other UN agencies in June, 2016. The response capacities of the Government, UNHCR and other partners are, however, limited and have already been stretched to the limit by the number of asylum seekers so far screened and taken in. The current influx of asylum seekers has been declared a level one emergency by the UNHCR.

 

Madam, the current influx of asylum seekers into Zambia calls for proactive preparedness on the part of the Government and its partners. This is particularly so because the situation is likely to deteriorate further into a humanitarian emergency. The Office of the Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, Zambia Red Cross Society (ZRCS) and authorities in Chiengi and Nchelenge Districts have been screening and registering the asylum seekers at reception centres at the border entry points. Those screened are then transported to the temporary transit centre at Kenani in Nchelenge District, which has temporal shelter and sanitation facilities. The UNHCR and ZRCS are providing daily rations to the asylum seekers, while the Ministry of Health, through its local institutions, is providing healthcare.

 

Madam Speaker, before I conclude, allow me to take this opportunity to express my profound gratitude to all the institutions and organisations that have helped provide essential support to the asylum seekers. In that regard, may I extend our gratitude to Chief Kambwili − Sorry, Chief Kambwali …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Chief Kambwali has been gracious enough to provide land for the temporary transit centre. He has also expressed willingness to host the refugees in the chiefdom for a longer period of time should it be necessary. We are also indebted to other traditional leaders in the border areas for their cooperation in offering protection to the asylum seekers, including our traditional leaders in the North-Western and Northern Provinces. The assistance and support of the local communities have been above expectations, humbling and simply commendable.

 

Madam, in keeping with the provisions of the Refugees Act of 2017, the asylum seekers are being granted refugee status on a prima facie basis as provided for under Section 16 (1) which indicates that, subject to the other provisions of the Act:

 

“Where the Minister considers that a class of persons are refugees, the Minister may, by statutory order, declare that a class of persons to be recognised refugees for the purposes of this Act.”

 

Madam, the Government has, therefore, continued with the open door policy towards asylum seekers and refugees that successive administrations of our country have adopted since independence in 1964. We are, however, closely monitoring the developments, particularly in the border areas, to ensure we are ready for any eventualities. We are also taking all the necessary actions, including seeking international support to ensure that we live up to our international obligations with regard to the protection of asylum seekers and refugees. The Government, therefore, remains committed to the protection of asylum seekers and refugees in fulfillment of our international obligations.

 

Madam Speaker, we cannot, however, deal with this enormous challenge of asylum seekers and refugees alone.

 

The support from our partners, especially the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) and other United Nations (UN) agencies has been extremely valuable and we are indebted to them too. We look forward to continued cooperation and support as we implement the contingency refugee response for the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) refugees in Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, let me also thank the provincial hon. Ministers for the Northern, North-Western and Luapula Province and their administrations, together with their Provincial Joint Operations Committees (PJOCs) for their continued support to the people in question.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Speaker, looking at the number of people coming in our country, I think it is quite big. In his statement, I did not hear the hon. Minister mention anything that the Government is doing to provide enough immigration officers and transport to the Immigration Department to ensure that the screening process is done speedily.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, screening is being done by joint teams of security agencies, including the Immigration Department. All the security wings such as the Immigration Department and the police special divisions are undertaking screening to ensure that only those who meet the criteria of being recognised as people of concern, in this case, refugees, are given the prima facie status of refugee. This is because we fear the risk of admitting undesirable elements who could have been involved in the same atrocities that people are running away from, and may want to filter into the country. When we put contingency measures for the purpose of screening, we made sure that we provided logistical support to all the security agencies. That is why I thanked the Provincial Joint Operations Committees (PJOCs) for the work they are doing on the ground. We are making sure that they are supported logistically and otherwise.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, the issue of refugees has been with us for some time in Zambia, and we can even call ourselves experts in handling refugees. What has the ministry done in the North-Western Province, especially in my constituency, which has a long border with Congo? The hon. Minister has said that the number of refugees crossing into Zambia is likely to increase. Is the ministry putting camps for screening in readiness for these refugees who are likely to cross into Zambia through that area?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, indeed, the issue of refugees has been with us for a long time. I am sure we all recall that prior to many surrounding countries getting liberated, this country was a host for refugees. Even today, as we receive our colleagues from the Republic of South Africa, they are coming to appreciate the role that we played in looking after those who were fighting apartheid. That has continued. However, what is unfortunate is that in the recent past, we have had to host people who were running away from countries where order has broken down, and that is regrettable. Speaking as a country which is part of the security organ of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) troika, which is also playing the role of ensuring that the region remains stable politically and in terms of security, we are taking these matters quite seriously.   

 

In terms of preparedness for the North-Western Province, I was in Geneva just a week ago, engaging the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) to ensure that we prepare for screening the refugees in a manner that will not constrain the social amenities that are available for our local communities in that region. We have to make sure that this time around, we increase the capacity of our health facilities, schools and all those social amenities that are meant to be shared by our communities and those refugees who are coming. We are working hard.

 

As I speak, a United Nations (UN) representative has gone to the North-Western with a team of agencies to go and ascertain what is obtaining on the ground. The hon. Minister of Defence and I will be going to Luapula and the Northern Province to see how much we can put on the ground in anticipation of the hopeless situation that may arise.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Dr Chanda (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister knows, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) is a very big country. Its population is 71 million, which is five times the population of Zambia. In case of a fully-fledged war, I think we will be overwhelmed, as a country. The DRC is a member of the Southern African Development Community (SADC), and I am aware that the SADC Chairman is here. Zambia is a member of the security troika. I want to know what specific tough sanctions Zambia and SADC are putting on DRC because the violence leading to refugees fleeing to our country is as a result of poor governance. The Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) has done the same in West Africa. What specific measures are our Government and SADC putting to remedy this issue?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I share the concerns of the hon. Member for Bwana Mkubwa. Indeed, we are part of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) troika. In the course of next week, His Excellency the President will be in Congo Brazzaville. In fact, the hon. Minister and I were supposed to be in Congo Brazzaville from Sunday to Monday, but we shall be represented by our colleague, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and other hon. Ministers from the region. The presidents from SADC will be meeting in Congo Brazzaville to specifically start dealing with these matters.

 

So, we are not passive. There are bilateral engagements to find an amicable solution in terms of the governance of our neighbouring country. As you know, anything that happens there has a direct bearing on this country in many ways, in term of security and humanitarian crises. We are proactive, and working with the rest of the troika members to ensure that solutions are found amicably in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Ng’ambi (Chifubu): Madam Speaker, Chifubu Constituency has a very long borderline with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and in the recent past, we have experienced an influx of people from DRC and they are disturbing the people particularly in Kawama and Misundu. Is the ministry considering setting up any temporary screening office to deal with this problem?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I appreciate the concerns raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chifubu. However, we, in Government, understand the proximity of Chifubu and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), and a few challenges this has been posing.I can assure the hon. Member that we are going to put screening measures in border towns. Apart from that, we are also going to be undertaking operations to ensure that people do not just come into this country without going through the formal channels.

 

So, there is a great deal that we are doing. We believe that the hon. Member working with us, we shall have these screening measures in place as soon as possible.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mbulakulima (Milenge): Madam Speaker, I hope the hon. Minister of Home Affairs knows that what is good for Milenge is also good for Chienge because these are twin districts. He has mentioned the unprecedented entry of refugee, and he is also aware that annually, Chienge has been a source concern with regard to cholera. He has also mentioned that there is unprecedented pressure on the infrastructure. I want to take an example of health infrastructure, and he knows how vulnerable Chienge is. What immediate plans has the Goverment put in place regarding assistance from the international community in the field of health to arrest the situation? Can the hon. Minister specify me the kind of support we are getting from our international community in this regard?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, thank you, and I appreciate the issues the hon. Member of Parliament for Milenge has raised.

 

Indeed, as I earlier mentioned in my ministerial statement, we are also concerned regarding the health of these people that are coming into our country, and what they may be coming with, which might end up affecting our local communities.

 

I have been chatting with my counterpart ,the Minister of Health, who has also been proactive and has already dispatched some health practitioners to this area to boost those that are locally based in these areas.

 

Madam Speaker, with regards to getting support from the international community, I agree that we are receiving support from international communities. As I earlier mentioned, I was in Geneva last week to discuss these matters, and we were lucky that we were listened to, and we are receiving positive response from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR).

 

I also mentioned that as I speak today, the Minister in the Office of the Vice-President accompanied by the United Nations (UN) Representative Madam Janet Rogan and other members, have gone on the ground to see how much we need to do in terms contingency measures and other possible solutions.

 

Therefore, I can assure the hon. Member that, indeed, we are not leaving anything to chance, especially that we have recorded a few deaths that I earlier announced. So, we are doing everything possible in an integrated approach, and not leaving any stone unturned.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Chibanda (Mufulira): Thank you, Madam Speaker and I wish to thank the hon. Minister for his comprehensive statement to the House on the happenings in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). My question is on the repatriation of refugees from Maheba particularly to Angola. Has this process still continued in order to create space? I know that most of these Congolese refugees are entering through the northern part are ending up in Maheba. What is the state of space in Maheba in terms of the refugees that are supposed to go back to Angola?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I appreciate that question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mufulira, who happens to be at the border line with Congo (DRC). This also applies to all my dear colleagues whose constituencies are on the border lines, they need to make sure that they sensitise our people to be alert, and ensure that all those that are coming in are screened. I know that in certain areas, they have relatives across borders, and people would want to flock in and settle without following the formal channels. So, we need to be proactive in sensitising the people.

 

Madam Speaker, with regards to the capacity issue of Maheba, I would say that we have been undertaking two programmes. One of which is voluntary repatriation. According to the international obligations, we request people to voluntarily return to their countries of origins when there is peace or when those threats that could have triggered their movements from their homes, have been resolved. The other one is local integration which is another process, and has also got formalities to administer.

 

So, with regards to Angolan refugees, we have had a number of the repatriated refugees to Angola and we have had number of them who have opted to stay. These are the ones that we are processing the local integration which requires they get some documentation from their country of origin, and then they are given some form of status in terms of residence.

 

It is not everyone that is being repatriated. We have been working with the local leadership, traditional leaders and the international community, through the UN agencies to find spaces where these people can settle through local integration.

 

Madam, we are also looking at other options. We have been discussing with the Provincial Administration in Luapula on how we can open up new areas in there. This is so that when the time for people to go back to Congo (DRC) comes, it becomes cheaper and convenient to move them from there.

 

Those that are coming from the other side, where we border with the North-Western Province, we are embarking on negotiating with the local leader there, these have been quite helpful over the years. In this case, we are looking at the option of opening new settlements to accommodate those that are coming.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, the reception of asylum seekers and refugees in this country will indeed overwhelm us going by the figures that we have received from the Minister of Home Affairs. Now, this benevolent act of receiving these stressed people is as a result of their escape from a political situation in their country. It is treating a symptom, and not dealing with the actual disease. I want to support the hon. Member of Parliament for Bwana Mukubwa’s question, and giving an example of how certain upright societies Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS), have dealt with naughty, belligerent and stubborn dictators (which is the emerging disease in the particular region). The people who are seeking refuge in our country are running away from Kabila. That is to put it plainly.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No, you cannot.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: I withdraw that, graciously so.

 

Madam Speaker, the people are running away from a situation where the leader of the DRC, who has a name, is refusing to go for elections. That is what the hon. Minister said.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: The Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) had a special way of dealing with the Gambia when the person who was at the helm of power became naughty.

 

Madam Speaker, the head of SADC, Mr Jacob Zuma, is here, and I am told he signed some bilateral agreement to do with the railway line concession. Is it not possible to go to him while he is here so that we can actually believe that you mean well in receiving these people? If that is not done, you will soon be doing exactly what you did with the refugees from Rwanda. The Head of State, President Lungu, signed an extradition treaty for people who ran away from Rwanda many years ago to go back and face the law (although we know that they had received refugee status). Will you do the same if you fail to tell President Jacob Zuma to intervene? Congo is not far from here, we can all drive there to tell that leader ...

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: ... to behave himself and respect democracy. Therein lays the actual problem. The problem is not receiving these people who will overwhelm us, whom we will fail to feed, who will assimilate themselves into our communities, and start robbing our people, as the case is with refugees everywhere else in the world. Are you able to bite the bullet and deal with democratic governance in Congo, a disease which is actually spreading to this country?

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka, you have made your point, and most times you make your point in the very first few sentences. Let us try to be brief. I have a long list here and the business of the day, as you can see, is not even half way done.

 

Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, restrict your answer to the specific question. What are you going to do to ensure that the Southern African Development Community (SADC), as a regional body, deals with pertinent issues of Governance in the Congo?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, this is not an institution to use for validating rumours, and innuendos that are peddled in sections of society.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lubinda: Teach him!

 

Mr A. B. Malama: And social media!

 

Mr Kampyongo: The diplomacy that we are bound to as a sovereign state when engaging with other nations is very clear on what countries and organisations can do to intervene.

 

Mr Lubinda: Teach him mwana!

 

Mr Kampyongo: We should not get excited because the things that we say may be unhelpful to the situation at hand. We, as leaders, should appreciate the fact that leadership is all about people, and people should not run away from leadership. Democracy has its own dynamics.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: The example he gave of the non acceptance of legitimate election results which then drew the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) to intervene was a different scenario from what is obtaining.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Similarly ...

 

Mr Lubinda: Bwezapo!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: What are those?

 

Mr Kampyongo: I am responding, and you are to listen to what I am saying.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You are responding through the Chair.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Through you Madam Speaker, we all have a responsibility to ensure that everybody follows the rules of governance set by countries. It should not be about how you feel as an individual, but how the systems work through formalities.

 

Madam Speaker, we find ourselves in situations like this when leaders do not accept the will of the people. I agree that we are dealing with symptoms, but internationally we are obliged to deal with people running away from different situations in their countries. We as SADC, and Zambia as a part of the Troika, are engaging in frank discussions on issues where we face challenges.

 

Madam Speaker, we just returned from Lesotho, and we are still going to be involved in finding a solution for the DRC. There are no quick fit solutions when you are dealing with diplomatic matters of such nature. We must avoid endangering this peace that we have enjoyed in our country Zambia.

 

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, this situation does not please some of us who have been to see these children and pregnant mothers who have had to walk long distances.

 

Madam Speaker, some leaders want to be greedy. They have lost an election and want to claim to still be winners. Those are the causes ....

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, order!

 

Hon. Minister, take your seat.

 

Mr Kampyongo resumed his seat.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, the question was what SADC is doing about the root cause of the problem of refugees from the Democratic Republic of Congo. Restrict your answer to that.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, SADC is ensuring that governance institutions, electoral bodies and other institutions responsible for sustainable peace are respected. These are the matters that we are discussing. I think my ‘brother’ hon. Member for Mazabuka, gave a catalogue of examples ...

 

Mr Nkombo: ‘Elder brother’. I am older than him.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Most obliged, my ‘elder brother’.

 

Madam Speaker, we are doing everything possible. Those of us who have an opportunity to be part of these meetings are engaging in serious and genuine discussions without sugar-coating issues. We are concerned that we are still receiving refugees in this time and era, this is unprecedented.

 

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, we are part of the team that is seeking to find a lasting solution in the DRC. There are other stakeholders who have been proactive in ensuring that we find a solution. This is not only happening in the DRC because, like I said, we are also engaged in Lesotho and other areas. I must say that SADC is making a great deal of progress, and we are happy to witness the change of leadership in Angola. That is what SADC wants to see happening.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Madam Speaker, as the hon. Minister said, it is not only Luapula area that is affected by this problem. Kaputa shares a large boarder with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), as well as Chimbamilonga on Lake Tanganyika. The District Joint Operations Committee (DJOC) in Kaputa has done well in ensuring that those who cross through the boarder are recorded. However, we have only got one immigration officer, there is no motor vehicle, and we have challenges with shelter, and sometimes even with food.

 

Within this programme, is there a way this Government can empower the men on the ground, who are doing extremely well under very difficult circumstances with these materials that can make them even do better?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I forgot to address one issue which the hon. Member for Mazabuka raised pertaining to the extradition treaty that was signed between the Governments of Zambia and Rwanda. We should not use this House to validate rumours, and I will make this point very clear. This is a bilateral requirement. We sign extradition treaties with so many countries for different purposes. The treaty which we signed with the Republic of Rwanda is in no way intended to be applied to people whom we have looked after for so many years. If we wanted to …

 

Mr Nkombo: Question!

 

Mr Kampyongo: You can question but listen to me. I am speaking from authority’s point of view.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, please, address the Chair.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I seek your protection.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Yes, you are protected. Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, allow the hon. Minister to respond to the issues you raised. Continue, hon. Minister.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I am giving an official position on this matter.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we have looked after these people for so many years. If we had to throw them out, we could have done so even without that extradition organ. There are so many ways we can use. We did not have to wait for an extradition order to throw those people who could have been taken back. So, to validate rumours like that is uncalled for. As leaders, we need to give comfort to those we are looking after, who are the people in need. I can assure the community of the former Rwandan refugees, that they know what this Government is doing in order to implement the local integration. They should not be swayed by innuendos and rumours that are spreading around.

 

Madam Speaker, getting back to the question by the hon. Member for Kaputa, I wish to state that just last year, the hon. Minister of Defence and I went to Kaputa and many areas because those are also areas which are entry points. People have been leaving those places for Mpulungu because that is where we have a few facilities.

 

Madam Speaker, next time, when we go on ground, we shall bring the hon. Member and others on board who are in the areas of concern so that we can go and agree on the measures that we can put in place. The support we are getting from the international community will also be extended to logistical support to ensure that operations in those areas go on smoothly.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Evg. Shabula (Itezhi-tezhi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated to us that we have about 60,000 refugees in this country. How many Zambian asylum seekers are in other countries?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, respond if you have the information. If not, we can move on to the next person. Do you have the information?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Yes, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Please, go ahead.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, that is why we should feel proud as Zambians when we say we are oasis of peace. We can differ in opinions, politically, but ultimately, we would have appreciated ourselves as one people. The reason why we have got people running away from their countries to Zambia for sanctuary is because Zambia has been known to be a peaceful nation. We do not have any record of any Zambian who has gone to seek refuge elsewhere. As the Ministry of Home Affairs, we are proud of that record.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chisangano (Gwembe): Madam Speaker, not too long ago, there were pronouncements of Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). I do not know what measures the Government has put in place to make sure that as people are crossing over, they do not come with the virus.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, we are very much aware of the threat of Ebola. Our colleagues at the Ministry of Health have put measures to screen people in terms of their status.  I am sure they are also doing the testing and treating. It is a full health screening. The Ministry of Health is, therefore, doing a good job.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, it is clear that Zambia is a second home for asylum seekers. As such, this is putting pressure on the Budget, in terms of looking at the welfare of those who are coming into the country and also, boosting the security personnel. Is Zambia being helped by the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) in terms of funding?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, indeed, we are receiving support from the United Nations (UN) agencies. As I said, I was in Geneva just last week for this same case, and I came back with positive responses. This means that we are going to receive support to look after the people we will be hosting.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that Zambia has curved herself as a haven of peace looking at refugee camps which we have at the moment and those which we have had in the past, including Ukwimi and Maheba Refugee Camps. Can the hon. Minster confirm (what that depicts to the whole world) that Zambia is a peace loving nation?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I want to say to the hon. Member that indeed, our role and effort in looking after people in need has been recognised at international level. I can confidently say that I was given an opportunity to make a presentation at the Executive Committee (EXCOM) of the UNHCR, which is the apex of engagements in terms of humanitarian matters. Indeed, we have been put in the category of those who have got an impeccable record of looking after the people in question. The programmes that we have embarked on, such as the local integration which has not been done before, are some of the programmes which are being replicated in other countries. That shows how much we are appreciated and acknowledged at international level.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

   Mr Kasonso (Solwezi West): Madam Speaker, as you know, Solwezi West lies in New Kalumbila District. Social amenities such as schools, clinics and hospitals in the constituency, particularly in Maheba, are overstretched. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how many refugees are in Maheba, and whether he will help the police with sufficient transport to ensure that peace and harmony is preserved for the local people.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I want to appreciate the hon. Member and the people in his constituency. More importantly, I thank His Royal Highness, Chief Mumena, who has been supportive of the programmes of looking after people in that area.

 

Madam Speaker, I acknowledge that social amenities in the area are stretched, and I mentioned this in my speech. This time around, we want to have an advance package where, as we accept refugees, we also ensure that social amenities in the receiving areas are capacitated. If need be, even consider putting up new facilities. I want to share with the hon. Member that these proposals have been agreed upon by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) and other agencies. So, we are doing everything possible to ensure that our people do not get to pay a price for being generous in hosting people coming into their areas. We shall bring the hon. Member on board as we implement these programmes so that he is also part and parcel of the solution-finding team.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: What about transport for the police?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, as I said, we are doing everything possible to equip our police not only in that area, but others that I mentioned so that they are able to react to any threat. When there is instability in neighbouring areas, you do not have to wait until you are hit. You have to be proactive. Therefore, we are going to ensure that our presence in border areas is felt. My counterpart, at the Ministry of Defence, and I are working around the clock so that the security of our border regions with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) is maintained, and our people are safe.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Madam Speaker, in my understanding, a refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group. Given this background, would the hon. Minister confirm or inform the House, and through it the nation whether it is possible for the people of Congo to move from one frying pan to another?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: To move from one frying pan to another? Can you please ask the last part of question again?

 

Mr Kabanda: Madam Speaker, if there was political persecution in this country, would the Congolese find it a haven to settle in? This is what I want the hon. Minister to clarify to the nation.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, have you understood the question?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, I do understand the rationale behind the question from the hon. Member for Serenje. I know that some parts of his constituency border the DRC.

 

Mr Kabanda: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, it is unfortunate that Zambians want to be their own enemies.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Even when a few want to go out, and to paint a negative picture about this nation, everybody wonders what is wrong with them ...

 

Mr Lubinda: Yah!

 

Mr Kampyongo: ... because its record cannot be brought down.

 

Mr Lubinda: No!

 

Mr Kampyongo: It is well known. It is an impeccable record that cannot be erased by one disgruntled citizen.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: So, even when some people want to go and dent the image of this nation, the international community just considers them wrong.

 

Mr Lubinda: Mwaona manje?

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: People can only run to where they know they will be safe.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: People have run to this nation not only now, but also before because they know that they will find a sanctuary and love.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: These are the reasons they run here. Earlier I mentioned the number of nationalities that have run to this country. We have no record of anyone running away from here,...

 

Mr Lubinda: Not even that one

 

Mr Kampyongo: ... but maybe for economic reasons.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: We know of some people who have gone out for just economic reasons or greener pastures, which is a norm as regards migration matters. The hon. Member should feel proud as a citizen, and as a leader in this peace loving nation. We can differ. We can have divergent views, but at the end of the day, what brings us together is much more powerful than what separates us. We should be proud. We should also commend our forefathers, Dr Kaunda and those who have gone...

 

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Unless you are from Mars, but if you are a Zambian worth your salt, you cannot ignore the role that our forefathers such as Dr Kaunda and others played in making this country the peaceful one that it is.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Madam Speaker, ...

 

Mr Muchima: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I rarely stand on points of order, but this one is quite critical.

 

Madam, it is the responsibility of the Government to inform the nation whenever there is a policy pronouncement. My point of order is on the hon. Minister of General Education. The General Certificate of Education (GCE) results came out, and the results of over a hundred people in my constituency are missing. The hon. Minister of General Education has been quiet leaving the state of affairs unattended, and leaving the children to guess, and check their results electronically. Is he in order to keep quiet and not inform members of the public and the nation what has happened to the missing results? I need your serious ruling, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: As is the tradition, the Chair is sure that the hon. Minister of General Education is making preparations to come to this House ...

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... and make a statement to inform it and through it the members of the public about the results.

 

Ms Subulwa: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of General Education will probably indicate, some time next week, when he is coming to the House with a statement on the results. This is the position of the Chair.

 

Interruption

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: It is a tradition.

 

Mr Livune: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether there is a skills inventory for refugees, especially those of relevance to Zambian sectors. If not, why, but if there is, how is Zambia utilising these skills?

 

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, before we went on break, I had begun to respond to my dear colleague the hon. Member for Katombola who had posed a question seeking clarification on how we take stock of professionals that find themselves among the people concerned.

 

Madam, I was saying that there is a new Refugee Response Framework that is being worked on. This entails that we should find different ways of looking after these people that are running away from their countries. As you know, where order breaks down and confusion takes root, people run away from different places at different times. For example, doctors run away from operating theatres, my dear colleagues like these (pointing at cameramen in the Assembly Chamber) run away, if he is lucky, carrying a camera, and from the pulpit of the church, people will probably run away with just a Bible…

 

Mr Mweetwa: Like in Shiwang’andu.

 

Mr Kampyongo: …and a cross to show that they are men of God. That is why we say, peace is always important to preserve at all costs.

 

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: This is so because when peace is blown off through the wind, everybody gets caught up. So, this new framework will then help in the way we segregate those that are able to perform professional work not only to sustain themselves but also to make sure that they do not live on the little drips that come from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) in terms of looking after them. There are many things that we are doing, and I think, as Zambia, we have accepted to run with that new response framework.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Ms Mwape (Mkushi North): Madam Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Minister that that was a very good and educative report to the House. However, the hon. Minister indicated in the statement that some of the asylum seekers are expectant mothers, I want to find out what nationality will these children be since they will be born on Zambian soil.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Speaker, the status of those children is determined by the Citizenship Act which prescribes different kinds of citizenships. So, the child who is born of foreign parents on the Zambian soil will be recognised as a Zambian, by birth. Of course, subject to…You know when a child is born like that they have to attain a certain age where they should use their right to decide which nationality they should then go for. And so, they will be recognised as such, Zambian by birth, until such a time. Probably they may go back to Congo with their parents when peace returns. Therefore, they will be registered as having been born in Zambia but, of course, gone back to the country of origin. Should they decide to stay here, when they attain that age where they can exercise their right to choose which nationality they should enjoy, the laws then apply under the Citizenship Act.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Speaker, yesterday on the main evening news on Muvi TV , two former Somali refugees in Zambia, I do not know if I should address them as such, were complaining that they are unable to access help from the UNHCR office because they cannot be recognised as refugees by that agency yet they claim that they had actually recorded their existence and identity with the agency. This left those people to plead for assistance from the Zambian Government. This item was on Muvi TV, a very informative news channel.

 

Madam Speaker, how does the hon. Minister interface with the UNHCR country office, in terms of record keeping, updating and identity tracking of these people coming in as refugees to ensure that in the long run they may not end up in the situation like the one I have referred to but may also illegally assimilate into our community simply by changing names and becoming Mwewa, Bwalya or names like Kampyongo. What can the hon. Minister tell me on this matter?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, you could include Mweetwa in that list of names.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Yes, indeed, Madam Speaker, we could include his name. My dear colleague is always well received in a certain country, which I will not mention, and that is a matter for another day. I did not have an opportunity to watch that particular news item, and I may have a challenge in addressing it appropriately. However, I want to say that the Ministry of Home Affairs works very well with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). We have a responsibility as a host country for refugees, and our role is prescribed by the Act. However, the international responsibility of looking after the refugees lies with the UNHCR.

 

Madam, when the Cessation Clause is evoked, it entails that the refugee status is withdrawn, and this is done on the basis of determining the prevailing situation in the refugee’s country of origin. If, for example, that country is determined to be peaceful, order returns and everything is normal, two options are offered. The first option is voluntary repatriation, where people willingly go back to their countries and the other option is local integration. All these options are meant to ensure that nobody is left stateless, and we have been discussing these matters at the international level extensively. So, we may need to look at the current status of the two people the hon. Member referred to and why it ended up to be that of non-refugees.

 

Madam Speaker, I want to assure my colleague, and through him, the House and nation, that the UNHCR and the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees under the Ministry of Home Affairs have computerised all the records. So, we will not have an issue of people changing their identities. We make sure that the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees interfaces with the Immigration Department so that those who would have moved from the status of refugees are subjected to the Immigration and Deportation Act of 2010. So, this collaboration does not leave room for anyone to remain stateless. However, ultimately, I just want to say that, we, the people of Zambia, who have been hospitable to many nationalities who come in, have a responsibility to ensure that we have peace and love in the nation regardless of our differences, and should not be enemies.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

___________

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

KASABA PRIMARY SCHOOL IN CHIFUNABULI

 

60. Mr Mecha (Chifunabuli) asked the Minister of General Education:

 

  1. when Information and Communication Technology (ICT) equipment would be provided to Kasaba Primary School in Chifunabuli Parliamentary Constituency;

 

  1. when the school would be designated as an examination centre;

 

  1. when a deputy head teacher and a senior teacher would be deployed to the school; and

 

  1. whether there were any plans to reintroduce the position of second senior teacher.

 

The Minister of General Education (Dr Wanchinga): Madam Speaker, the provision of Information and Communication Technology (ICT) equipment is an ongoing programme. Kasaba Primary School will be supplied with computers as and when resources are available. The Government has in the recent past adopted a phased approach towards the distribution of ICT equipment; given the limited resources that are available.

 

Madam, let me take this opportunity to inform the House that we currently distributed a total of 26,575 computers in the country. This has been an improvement from the 2015 level where we had 20,026 computers. However, given that we have 8,823 primary schools, 851 secondary schools and a population of about 4,020,000 children, we still have a computer-pupil ratio of one computer to 151 pupils nationwide. So, we are taking this matter seriously; given that we have introduced ICT as one of the examinable subjects in our schools.

 

Madam Speaker, let me also take advantage of this opportunity to advise all hon. Members of Parliament to work together and mobilise resources for our schools. I am aware that there are a number of Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and institutions with goodwill which, if approached, may be able to provide ICT support to our schools. For instance, Computers for Africa from the United Kingdom (UK) has distributed quite a number of computers in the Southern Province whereas Campaign for Female Education (CAMFED) has also been assisting some schools in Luapula Province. So, let us work together and ensure that we mobilise as many resources of this nature as possible instead of waiting for the Ministry of General Education. Despite its efforts, to provide what is required in the area of ICT, it needs to be supplemented by other stakeholders.

 

Madam, for a school to be designated as an examination centre, there is a process that is followed. Initially, the application for examination centre status is initiated by the school itself. After that, Education Standards Officers and District Officials then inspect the school to ensure that it meets the minimum facilities for it to be an examination centre.

 

Particular attention is given to facilities like strong rooms because we have to secure the examination papers. Once they find that a particular place can secure examination materials and other facilities are in place, then it can be granted an examination centre status.

 

Madam Speaker, in this case, the school has not expressed the need for the Grade 9 examination centre status. However, the headteacher will be advised by us so that the school can begin the process of applying for examination centre status, and it will be considered. There is a special committee within the Examinations Council of Zambia (ECZ), the Examinations Committee for Grade 9 Examinations, which will be able to examine this application once it is received. On that basis, and upon satisfying the requirement, that school will attain the examination centre status.

 

Madam Speaker, as regards the positions of a deputy head teacher and a senior teacher, Kasaba Primary School already has a deputy headteacher. However, there are two slots for the position of senior teachers although one of them has been filled. So, that leaves us with a vacancy for one. This vacancy arose as a result of dormancy of the second position. The guidelines available state that if a position within the ministry stays unoccupied for six months or more, that position becomes frozen. Now that interest is being expressed in this, the Ministry will engage the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) to ensure that the Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) number attached to that particular position is re-activated so that the second senior teacher can be employed.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, the issue of computers in schools is not just a problem like any other. We are aware that every year, pupils are expected to sit for their computer examinations, yet in most schools, not just in Chifunabuli, some pupils do not sit for these exams. They have to walk long distances to go and use computers for their examinations. During last year’s examinations, we heard that some pupils had to wait for as long as seven days before using a computer. Now that these computer lessons are compulsory, is the ministry going to ensure that all schools in the country are supplied with computers as opposed to them just relying on the Campaign for Female Education (CAMFED) or Computers for Africa or from generous Members of Parliament like me, Is there any deliberate measure to ensure that by next year, each school will have computers to enable pupils sit for their Information and Communications Technology (ICT) compulsory examinations?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency for that question.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, there is a saying that if wishes were horses, beggars would ride them.

 

Mr Ngulube: Meaning?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, meaning that if the Ministry of General Education could somehow find a box of money somewhere, then it would buy computers for all pupils. What this Government has are intentions to ensure that every school has adequate computers. Just as the hon. Member has correctly said, we want to make sure that for this examinable subject, these facilities for ICT are available in every school. In the 2018 Budget, a reasonable amount of money has been allocated to the education sector, but this does not mean that the ministry will be able to supply schools with the computers they require. However, this will be a step forward in ensuring that we address this issue.

 

Madam Speaker, I should also mention that I am working on a master plan, to which I have already put many figures. This master plan is for the teaching of science, mathematics and ICT in this country. We therefore, hope that we will make a very comprehensive investment proposal in the area of ICT, Science and Technology Education, and that in due course and through these efforts, we will be able to address the issues of ICT, science and mathematics education in this country.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Mecha: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the response. I appreciate the fact that the distribution of computers to schools is an on-going process. You will recall that two weeks ago, practical examinations for Information and Communications Technology (ICT) were conducted. Students from Kasaba Primary School were among those who were writing these practical examinations. I am aware that the school management took an initiative to hire about twenty computers. This is worrisome. The school management has not been managing to hire computers for the purpose of teaching the children, but it is managing to do that for examination purposes. This brings in a very serious quality assurance issue. Since the students from Chifunabuli Parliamentary Constituency, whose schools do not have computers, have been passing these exams, I would like the hon. Minister of General Education to educate me on how the students are managing to pass examinations when they do not have computers in their schools.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I thought the education is the other way round because in his preamble, the hon. Member stated that the school was able to hire some computers for examinations and not for teaching. That is where I also need to be educated.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, if the school does not have a single computer, and when it is examination time, the school goes to hire computers, and children pass the examination, I want to know what they use. Is it some magic?

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of General Education, those are your teachers.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema Ministers aya!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am surprised that you are surprised.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: We are here to learn from you on the magic that your teachers use. You may continue.

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema shikulu aya!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I will find out what is happening at that particular school through our local administration, and we should be able to provide assistance to the school. I think that the bottom line is that we need to give assistance to the school. I will do my best to ensure that the hon. Member’s school receives some assistance so that maybe in future, the school does not resort to the methods it is employing to teach children, and instead, it should use facilities provided by the Government.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr S. Tembo (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when construction of Kasaba Secondary School in Chifunabuli will be completed?

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chadiza, I do not see the relationship between that question and the Question that is on the Order Paper on Information and Communication Technology (ICT) equipment.

 

However, if the hon. Minister has an answer to that question, he can respond.

 

Mr Ngulube: I can help, Madam Speaker!

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, do you have an answer to that question?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, you are right when you say that the hon. Member’s question is not related to the question at hand. Nevertheless, for the benefit of the hon. Member, I would like to state that completion of schools is a very important agendum in the 2018 Budget.

 

When we start discussing the allocations, you will notice a significant improvement in allocation to infrastructure development. The bulk of this allocation will go to the completion of all secondary schools that have been under construction for some time now. The completion of this particular school will therefore be addressed in the 2018 Budget.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that Information and Communication Technology (ICT) is an anchor of research and learning at all levels? If yes, why not allocate a fair and not in significant amount for ICT equipment? Why not budget for more computers to ensure that all schools are supplied with ICT equipment
instead of giving a piecemeal budget?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I hope that the hon. Member was listening when I began to answer this question. I said that we are working on a comprehensive master plan to make a holistic investment in ICT education, science and mathematics. Once this document, which we will table before co-operating partners and the Government is complemented, we will make a wholesome investment in ICT education, science and mathematics. 

 

As at now, it is difficult to state that we will procure computers for every school and pupil countrywide. The ministry is, however, doing its best to ensure that more resources are allocated for the procurement of computers countrywide.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Dr Malama (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, I have noted that some schools were recently designated as examination centres. When will schools, such as Kasaba Secondary School, be designated as an examination centre so that children do not have to walk long distances from learning centres to write examinations?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I did allude earlier to the fact the onus, on being designated as an examination centre, is on the school. The school should apply to the ministry to have it designated as an examination centre.

 

I further said that if the school will be slow to apply, the ministry shall advise the school management to initiate the process of applying for the school to become an examination centre. Even though the responsibility is on the school, the Ministry of General Education will guide to ensure that it initiates the process of applying.  

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, I thought that before Information and Communication Technology (ICT) was introduced or became compulsory and examinable in schools, a well-thought out plan would be put in place. 

Hon. Minister (wagging a finger at Hon. Dr Wanchinga), what did you have in mind when you were introducing this programme without having facilities in place, especially that there are schools that are not connected to the electricity grid, schools that have no network and schools that have no solar power? What was actually going through your mind as Government when you were introducing this subject? Can you at this stage withdraw it as a compulsory subject to allow pupils in areas like my constituency, to continue the way they were until you are ready?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I almost rose earlier to ask for protection when I saw the hon. Member wag his finger …

 

Laughter

 

Dr Wanchinga: …at me aggressively.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema fears aya!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, the issue of ICT as a compulsory subject is relative. It being a compulsory subject should not be understood in absolute terms. Eventually, we would like to have every school offering ICT. We are aware that certain schools do not have electricity or solar power and we are seeing this as a gradual process. Schools that will offer this subject will do so through the capability and resources available.

 

Eventually, the plan by the Government is to roll-out this subject so that it becomes examinable at every school. However, at the moment, resources cannot allow every school to offer this subject.   So, it is not that the Government did not plan for it. We did, but in a gradual process, which will go along aside the provision of other facilities such as electricity, solar power and ICT equipment to be able to operate effectively.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Ms Kucheka (Zambezi West): Madam Speaker, this is the right time to think about my constituency.

 

Zambezi West is one of the remotest constituencies in this country. If the children of Zambezi West saw a computer, they would probably run away.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Kucheka: Madam Speaker, this subject is compulsory.

 

Mr Ngulube: Even the teachers!

 

Ms Kucheka: Even the teachers, yes.

 

Computer studies are compulsory and children are expected to work and pass this subject. I think the hon. Minister has partially answered this question, but I want to know how quickly and exactly when he thinks the ministry will bring computers to schools in Zambezi West. For my constituency, it is not only about computers, but electricity as well. Cry my beloved constituency.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, if I cry with her, she will say mine are crocodile tears.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Wanchinga: However, let me just assure the hon. Member that we will do our best to ensure that Zambezi West gets a share of these facilities. We certainly do not want children to be running away from a computer as if they have seen a bomb. We are ready to work with the hon. Member in addressing this matter. I think we just need to have a tête-à-tête on some of these matters. Our ministry is a public institution and our offices are always open. Therefore, any hon. Member of Parliament who has serious challenges should just walk in any time to discuss, and see what we can scrounge around to assist our colleagues in the constituencies. However, it should be noted that the resources we have cannot go around for everybody at the same time.

 

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Speaker, it is clear that this important subject has got many challenges because of the  non availability of computers and connectivity to electricity. Bearing in mind that the ministry will only employ 2,000 teachers for the next recruitment, how many of these teachers will be teaching Information and Communication Technology (ICT)?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I am not quite sure about the last part of the question. Maybe if I have the privilege of the hon. Member just repeating the last part.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Livingstone, can you repeat the last part of your question.

 

Mr Jere: Madam Speaker, I mentioned the challenges that the ministry is facing in terms of ensuring that every school in this country is equipped with computers and connected to the national electricity grid. Now, the ministry has got plans to employ 2,000 teachers.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Of these 2,000 teachers, how many will be teaching ICT in schools? There is already a challenge that even where there are computers, there are no teachers for ICT.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, let me just give a little update on the numbers. I recall announcing that we are going to recruit 2,000 teachers countrywide this year. I would like to just inform the House that we have been working very hard to ensure that we improve that figure. We may probably be able to move to 3,000 or 3,500 teachers to be recruited. We have been cleaning up the payroll system looking at artificial employees and so on and so forth. So we have found that we can raise the figure from 2,000 to over 3,000 teachers to be employed. I think that is good news for all of us.

 

Secondly, it is difficult to determine out of that number how many Information and Communication Technology (ICT) teachers are going to be recruited because we have not seen the applications. So we do not know the proportion of people with ICT qualifications who are going to apply. However, let me hasten to add that we are transforming the National Science Centre in Kabulonga into a directorate. Eventually it is going to be a centre of excellence for teacher education in science and ICT. I think in the years to come, what we will see is that we shall have special facilities created specifically to produce teachers of ICT and science in our schools. So over time, this problem will be remedied.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Mr Sampa (Kasama Central): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to represent the wonderful people of Kasama. I have a very great concern on the education sector. In as much as we are crying to have computers be made available in most schools in our constituencies, like mine which is partially a rural constituency, there is another great challenge when it comes to the deployment of teachers. Teachers are supposed to be the custodians who teach our children in schools. First and foremost, there is no proper housing to accommodate most of the teachers being sent to the rural settings. Examinations are on now, but teachers have refused to go and settle in most schools because there are no habitable conditions for their stay. What is the ministry doing in order to address this situation?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I assume you have allowed that question as a bonus …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have allowed that question because there is a challenge of teaching staff in rural areas due to accommodation. From that view point, I have allowed it. What are you going to do to deal with this situation?

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I thank you for that clarification. In this country, we have about 26,700 fully finished teachers’ houses and somewhere around 6,000 to 7,000 incomplete structures. So if you add that, it just gives you somewhere around 32,000 houses. This is against a population of 104,000 teachers countrywide. So the ratio of houses to the number of teachers is about one to115 teachers.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: So it is a very big problem. The 1:115 ratio is very bad. However, I have said on the Floor of this House that the Government is committed to ensuring that we give every teacher decent accommodation. Where we fail to provide accommodation, teachers are given housing allowance to be able to rent decent accommodation in the areas where they are operating.

 

Madam Speaker, I have also said that this is not a subject that will be addressed by the Ministry of General Education alone. As hon. Members of Parliament, we really need to put our heads together in terms of finding solutions to this problem.

 

   I have also advocated that hon. Members of Parliament, councillors and even teachers themselves should build houses in the areas they come from and rent them out. These are very viable propositions. I think the chair’s concern for housing is the same as the ministry’s concern for housing. We will continue to do our best to address the problem of teachers’ houses.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Minister indicated something which I need to commend him for. He said that in order to deal with the current ratio of computers to pupils, which is 1:151, everybody needs to come on board. He needs the business community or private sector and non-governmental organisations (NGOs) to help the Government. That is how it should be.

 

Now, the people of this country have observed that President Lungu has been making a great number of trips, many of which are deemed unnecessary ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Mweetwa: He has been carrying unnecessary huge delegations.

 

Madam Speaker, not too long ago, the country was engaged in the debate of the purchase of fire trucks at a cost that is unjustifiable. It was also in the debate of this Patriotic Front (PF) Government having contracted a company to construct roads at a questionable, colossal price. Only last week, this PF Government chartered a plane to take PF hon. Members of Parliament and cadres to go and watch football in Nigeria.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Mweetwa: How does the hon. Minister expect the private sector which uses money economically, and knows the wasteful nature of this Government, to come to his aid when they know that the Government is exhibiting extravagance, and a lack of prudence in utilising public resources?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of General Education should take time to deal with those specific allegations of extravagance on the part of the Government.

 

Please respond, hon. Minister.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I need to study this question more deeply.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo): Madam Speaker, ...

 

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised

 

 Mr Mweetwa: Madam Speaker, I am so grateful to you for giving me this chance to raise this point of order. That is why I always cherish your chair.

 

Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister of General Education in order not to answer my question? He wants to portray that it is complicated when it is actually very simple. For the benefit of the people of Zambia and me, is he in order to refuse to answer it and say that he needs to go and study the answer? This is unprecedented in this House.

 

Madam Speaker, I need your ruling.

 

Madam Deputy Speaker: The ruling of the Chair is as follows: Hon. Ministers, you have a duty to your Government and to the people of Zambia to deal with questions and allegations that may be abelled against your Government. So, when a question like the one by the hon. Member for Choma Central is raised, it is an opportunity for you as an hon. Minister to set the record straight. It is a disservice on your part, hon. Minister, to let that chance pass because allegations have been labelled against your Government. This is an opportunity for you to clarify, and deal with those allegations and set the record straight.

 

I am giving you another opportunity to do that.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, the question from the hon. Member for Choma Central was a mixture of allegations. The first allegation I will respond to is the issue of unnecessary trips. Not long ago, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs made a very clear statement and explained the benefits of these trips in terms of creating international rapport, fostering the economy and building peace in the region. That is the value of the President’s trips.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: So, when you look at the cost-benefit ratio, as far as the trips of the President are concerned, there are many benefits.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: The second allegation was about corruption in relation to the purchase of the fire trucks, and construction of roads. The hon. Member has not told this House that he has been to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) or to any other Government agency to table facts concerning this issue ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: He has not laid anything on the Table concerning this matter. So, on my part and that of the Government, these are baseless allegations.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: He was trying to insinuate that if we had not contracted the construction of roads, we could have saved money to buy computers. These allegations should be backed by facts. However, I cannot make comments on them because they have not been substantiated by facts, and have not been reported to law enforcement agencies.

 

Now, the charter of the plane to Nigeria the hon. Member referred to was sponsored by private well-wishers.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: There was no Government money involved. So, this attempt to accuse an innocent, hard working Government ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: ... of corruption and other vices that cannot be substantiated ...

 

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: ... is not what we should call, for lack of a better word, ...

 

Interruptions

 

Madam Deputy Speaker: Allow the hon. Minister to answer. You asked a question and he is responding.

 

Continue hon. Minister or are you done?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I think I have cleared this question and the baseless innuendoes. I have explained that these allegations concerning the wastefulness of the President’s trip are baseless. I explained the benefits of the trips. Further, I explained that the issue of road construction and purchase of the fire trucks are not issues we can debate here because they have not been backed by facts.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: I also said that the issue of chartering of the plane was not a government activity but it was the well wishers who did this.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Therefore …

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, in the future, I will not use my fingers like my hon. Colleague on your left did.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I submit.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, I hope the hon. Minister is aware that there are serious challenges in the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) area such as, having no computers, no teachers, no power, no materials and the list goes on. This is a typical case of most African countries of putting the cart before the horse. In other words, there was no planning that went into this exercise.

 

I am glad, Madam Speaker, that the hon. Minister has told us here that now, they are going to seriously sit down and strategise. Although too late, they are going to sit down and strategise to come up with a plan that will assist them mobilise funds to ensure that this programme is successful.

 

My questions are: when is the hon. Minister making this plan available, and if he is relying on donors, these donors are fatigued.  Where is he going to get this assistance because they have been perceived as a government that indulges in wasteful expenditure?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of General Education, can you answer briefly since that question is very similar to the one raised before?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I think the hon. Member is trying to insinuate that there was no planning before the decision was made to rollout the teaching ICT in schools. This was a policy decision. Government realised that resources would not be available all at once to provide computers in every school. The planning was there and the essence of that planning was that this was going to be a phased-approach, meaning that we will be moving bit by bit equipping the schools with necessary facilities.

 

However, when I was talking about making a master plan, I was referring to what I was calling an investment proposal in the teaching of science, mathematics and ICT. An investment proposal is what I am calling a marshal plan. So, once this marshal plan is ready, I will bring it to Parliament for the hon. Member’s information.

 

Mr Ngulube: I thank you!

 

Dr Wanchinga: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: There is the issue of donor fatigue that was raised.

 

Dr Wanchinga: On the issue of donors being fatigued, I do not know where the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabompo got information that the donors are fatigued and what facts he can give on this.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: We still have quite a cocktail of Cooperating Partners to work with. So, I do not understand the context of that fatigueness.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mukumbuta (Senanga Central): Madam Speaker, I have been listening attentively to the way the hon. Minister of General Education answers questions, and there is something which is beyond imagination …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: hear, hear!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: … and he is leaving me in limbo.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Ask your question, hon. Member.

 

Hon. Government Members: In limbo!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: On the one hand, the hon. Minister is saying the ICT programme is compulsory and on the other hand, he is saying that this programme will be conducted gradually. He is allowing it in phases. What I know is that, when the programme was introduced, it was compulsory to all schools. For example, schools in Senanga Central, especially those in the countryside, which have Grade 9 streams, are forced to write Grade 9 exams. Is he telling me that we should call these examinations null and void?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, we cannot nullify the examinations. However, I have repeatedly said that the idea of teaching ICT as a compulsory subject does not necessarily mean that every school will start at once offering this subject. It is a phased approache which I have repeatedly said, depends upon the resources. This is because there are certain areas where there may not be power or solar power, therefore, we have to rollout this programme, together with other facilities that are expected to support the offering of ICT education in schools.

 

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Thank you, Madam Speaker , the issue of …

 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order pertaining to the statement that has been made by the hon. Minister of General Education concerning the policy on teaching computer lessons in schools. Is the hon. Minister in order, Madam Speaker, not be clear, considering the fact that the nation and the teachers are listening to the pronouncements he is making on the Floor of this House. Can he be categorical on the issue of teaching computer lessons in schools whether it is compulsory or it is only for those schools that have got computers? Let him be very clear. Otherwise he will be misleading the nation.

 

Mr Lufuma: Correct!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Minister of General Education will take that very important point of order into account as he deals with the question being raised by the hon. Member for Manyinga.

 

Can the hon. Member of Parliament for Manyinga continue with his question, please.

 

Mr Lihefu: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Before I was interrupted by that point of order, I was saying that the issue of computers is serious and important considering that it requires resources. Suppose an hon. Member of Parliament decides to buy computers for a school in his constituency outside the country, is the Ministry of Finance in the position of waiving tax?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Once again, Madam Speaker, I need your indulgence of having the hon. Member clarifying the question.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The question from the hon. Member is that you have indicated that the Ministry of General Education has a challenge to ensure that that all schools are equipped with computers. In that regard, the hon. Member of Parliament for Manyinga is asking that, if an hon. Member, as a individual Member of Parliament, procures computers to assists schools in his constituency. Is the Ministry of Finance able to waive the requirement for that hon. Member to pay tax on those computers? That is the question.

 

Dr Wanchinga: It would be very good if the hon. Member is able to do that, but I would have to find out from the Ministry of Finance whether the computers can be exempted from tax.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The point of order on the policy?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, what I said is that the policy of the ministry is to make the teaching of ICT a compulsory examinable subject in all schools. However, there are no resources to equip every school with the resources to be able to offer this subject as an examinable subject. Therefore, the ministry is implementing a phased approach to ensure that at some point every school will be able to have facilities to be able to offer ICT as an examinable subject. It is a commitment that the Government has placed on itself.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister of General Education, are you saying that this subject is not examinable in schools that do not have computers? Is that the policy of the Government?

 

Dr Wanchinga indicated consent.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So the information is that if a school does not have the equipment, it should not examine children on this particular subject? Please just stand and clarify that.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker,  that is exactly the position. To make nshima you must have mealie-meal.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, thank you for the opportunity …

 

Mr Lufuma: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwale: Aah ba Lufuma nkalani naimwe.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Lufuma: Madam Speaker, it is very important that this hon. Minister is clear here. Is the hon. Minister in order not to answer the question that was raised by the hon. Member for Monze Central on whether or not the subject under discussion is compulsory? There are only two words there. It is either compulsory or not compulsory. Is he in order to skirt around and not give us a definitive answer? I need you serious ruling.

 

Mr Mwale: Wayamba!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I think that he has answered ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: ... however, the hon. Minister still has an opportunity to clarify this very important point.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, I do not know if I should ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Speak in vernacular.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Basankwa ...

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Wanchinga: ... I have said that the policy of the Government is to have ICT taught as a compulsory subject in all schools. However, the fact that these ICT resources are not in every school means that it is not compulsory to offer an examination in the absence of facilities. The teaching can still occur in theory.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: You have answered?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Yes I have answered.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Speaker, ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Mumbwa will ask his question.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr K. Tembo: Sausage!

 

Mr Nanjuwa: Madam Speaker, I want the hon. Minister to assure the nation that the situation that prevailed in the previous exams last year where children were subjected to sit for exams in the night will not happen this year.

 

Dr Wanchinga: Madam Speaker, much as we would like Information and Communications Technology (ICT) to be taught in all the schools, the conducting of examinations for this particular subject will only be done in schools where facilities exist. So, we will not want to have our children subjected to very difficult conditions such as writing examinations in the night just for the purpose of trying to fulfill that we offered ICT examinations in our schools.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

LOCAL GOVERNMENT EQUALISATION FUND FOR SERENJE DISTRICT COUNCIL

 

61. Mr Kabanda (Serenje) asked the Minister of Local Government:

 

  1. whether funds under the 2017 Local Government Equalisation Fund for Serenje District Council had been released;

 

  1. if not, when the funds would be released; and

 

  1. what had caused the delay in releasing the funds.

 

The Minister of Local Government (Mr Mwale): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the Government through the Ministry of Local Government has been releasing the 2017 Local Government Equalisation Funds (LGEF) to Serenje Town Council from January, 2017 to date. These funds are released on a monthly basis. There has been no delay in the release of the funds. Below is a schedule of the releases of funds to Serenje Town Council. We paid for September, and we are waiting to pay again by the end of October.

 

Month/Year              Amount

 

January, 2017            K541,280.27

 

February, 2017         K541,280.27

 

March, 2017             K536,280.27

 

April, 2017                K602,280.27

 

May, 2017                K602,280.27

 

June, 2017                K602,280.27

                                

July, 2017                 K602,280.27

 

August, 2017             K602,280.27

 

September, 2017       K602,280.27

                                

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Madam Speaker, LGEF is huge. It is about K1.1 billion, five times the size of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Last time, when the hon. Minister gave a ministerial statement, he said that that 20 per cent of this money must go to projects in every council area. Is the hon. Minister intending to give instructions to the councils so that they give reports or involve Members of Parliament in how they can spend this 20 per cent of LGEF which in most cases, is a great deal of money?

 

Mr Mwale: Madam Speaker, indeed, I did come to this House to issue a ministerial statement on the use of LGEF. I did give clear instructions at that time that councils ought to sit together with stakeholders including Members of Parliament to account for this fund. During these meetings, they also decide on how they are going to use it, especially the 20 per cent component which is meant for capital projects. If that statement was not taken as official by our councils, I can issue a circular by Monday or Tuesday to be able to make that instruction clear.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mbulakulima (Milenge): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister must have discovered that most of this money is not spent as intended. There have been many good debates here over the Motion of Supply as to whether we could move it to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) or is there any way that the ministry can ring- fence this fund so that it is spent on capital project?

 

Mr Mwale: Madam Speaker, indeed, we have made a rule for ourselves that 20 per cent of this fund should be spent on capital projects. We realise that this is a great deal of money, and it needs to help our councils develop. I do not agree with those who think that we should move this component to CDF. I agree with those who think that CDF should be increased. As a Member of Parliament and Minister of Local Government, I think that will depend on how the Minister of Finance will look at it. I have evidence that even though some councils have failed to account for this money, some have really utilised it very well.

 

Madam Speaker, just two months ago, I went to Choma to commission an administration block within the council which has been built from LGEF. The town centre never had toilets and they have built a big block for toilets so that we can avoid diseases such as cholera. In Katete, they have constructed a fire station. Now we have even given a fire engine. I have a list of districts that have done very well. I agree that some districts have actually abused this money. We have now put a rule that every month, before we release of subsequent LGEF, councils are expected to account for the previous funds. Our provincial ministers are now ensuring that all their councils account for this fund before more funds are released.  

 

Madam Speaker, we will strengthen controls but we will not take away this fund from the councils because it is really helpful to them.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, having heard the answers regarding the utilisation of the Local Government Equalisation Fund (LGEF), the question from the hon. Member for Serenje is similar to the one I have over Kabwe District. Since the hon. Minister is saying that some councils have used this money properly and others have actually abused it. Would the hon. Minister be in a position to confirm how the Kabwe District LGEF was utilised? Right now, we have people who are crying that there are no drainages and the council is saying that they cannot use LGEF. Is the use of this fund supposed to be determined by councils or Members of Parliament are also supposed to be consulted as well?

 

Mr Mwale: Madam Speaker, Kabwe has used LGEF to construct a transit bus station, and paint the Civic Centre Phase 1. This fund has also helped in the rehabilitation of the toilet near Shoprite, paving of frontage of Civic Centre driveway and parking, Phase 1, the Council Abattoir, Civic Centre toilets and kitchen and chalet at Clayton Park.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Kabanda: Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister kindly itemise what capital projects Serenje Town Council has undertaken during the year under review.

 

Mr Mwale: Madam Speaker, there have been renovation of two council houses, Ibololo Valley Motel for the council and the erection of a water tank. There have also been renovations of part of the Civic Centre and a purchase of a motor vehicle. Of course, that has to be done with approval by the minister. Currently, they are planning to do a dry port which will also be funded by LGEF.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi): Madam speaker, ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central wants to ask through a point of order. No, hon. Member, sit down. Hon. Member for Lubansenshi, continue with your question.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwamba: Madam Speaker, the Local Government Equalisation Fund is a colossal sum of money going to councils. I am aware that Civil Servants adhere to instructions sent through a circular as opposed to a statement made on the Floor of this House.

 

Madam Speaker, has the hon. Minister designed a mechanism of monitoring the fund so that when money is reported to have been used on infrastructure, it can be accounted for?

 

Mr Mwale: Madam Speaker, there are many ways in which we are going to monitor the use of the fund. We are also concerned that there has not been adequate monitoring of the use of the fund. One of the ways is that the Office of the Auditor-General is now involved in auditing councils, and we have requested it to pay particular attention to how this fund is being used. So, the Auditor-General will produce regular reports that will be used by this House to provide oversight on the happenings in councils and by us as managers of councils.

 

Madam Speaker, secondly, we have requested all provincial ministers to be active, and work with councils. They need to check that this fund is properly utilised. The Ministry of Local Government is based in Lusaka, and I think that the immediate supervisors, the provincial ministers, are better placed to check councils on regular basis. So, if there is no truth in the reports that are generated, our Provincial Ministers are capable of getting down to the grass root to check and confirm correct use of money before further disbursements. So, the involvement of the provincial administration will help us strengthen monitoring mechanisms.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

___________

 

MOTION

 

MOTION OF SUPPLY

 

(Debate resumed)

 

Ms Kasanda (Chisamba): Madam Speaker, before debate was adjourned yesterday, I was about to talk about the K2 increment on cement. I know that the Government’s quest is to ensure that women and the youth are empowered. So, how will they be empowered with the hiking of the price of the commodity that should be made affordable for every Zambian?

 

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, we are here to look at the plight of the youth and ensure that women are empowered. How are we going to empower them if we are going to keep on increasing the price of commodities that should be easy to access for them to build their homes?

 

Madam Speaker, my other concern is on feeder roads. There is an allocation of K8.7 billion for the rehabilitation and upgrading of feeder roads across the country.

 

Madam Speaker, I stand here as a hon. Member of Parliament for Chisamba who does not benefit from this money that has been allocated or in allocations in previous Budgets ...

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Ms Kasanda: ... yet the condition of roads is worsening. Our roads are becoming impassable, and the rains are about to come.

 

Madam Speaker, as I stand, I speak as a former councillor for Chaloshi Ward. It is a great concern for us in rural areas when our feeder roads are not being worked on. I think it is important that hon. Members of Parliament go back to councils to ensure checks and balances. We need to take stock of the challenges of the people that voted for us. I am sure you are aware that as hon. Members of Parliament, we are not appointed, but elected by the people of Zambia. Therefore, the people of Zambia are looking up to us to deliver to them.

 

Madam Speaker, Chisamba has only received K700,000 of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I think this is case for most of the constituencies that have received, while others have probably not even received that money and yet we are here to deliver to the people of Zambia. How do we deliver when money is not coming the way it should be coming to our constituencies to better the lives of our people, especially in rural areas?

 

Madam Speaker, there is a road in Chisamba known as Kasosolo which is used by most farmers in the area. Chisamba is a food basket and the food goes straight into Lusaka, Copperbelt and Congo. This road, however, has been ignored entirely. I have noticed that there is concentration on roads in urban areas and in the Central Business Districts (CBD), and yet, we, in the rural areas, are the people that need more concentration.

 

Madam Speaker, for us to work well, and achieve what we want, we need to put up enough resources. We need to increase CDF from K1.4 million to K5 million. This way, we will be able to deliver to the people that voted us in.

 

Madam Speaker, the roles of the hon. Member of Parliament, the District Commissioner and the Council Chairperson are not defined. We need coordination because we all have the same goal, which is to develop the constituency.

 

Madam Speaker, when I look at the K251. 3 million for rural electrification, I want to be a beneficiary of this money. I am sure the people of Chisamba, Itezhi-tezhi, Kapiri Mposhi, Rufunsa and all other places would like to benefit from this money. Indeed energy supply is critical to the welfare of our people. I would like to cite a good example. During my campaign in Chikonkomeno Ward, a female delivered a baby at about 2300 hours, yet there is no electricity in that clinic. They had to use a cell phone torch when stitching her.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hmmm!

 

Ms Kasanda: Yet we live in Zambia, fifty-three years after independence but we still have a clinic without electricity. Meanwhile, people are saying the Government is working.

 

Hon. PF Members: Yes

 

Ms Kasanda: We want the Government to prove that they are a working Government. As a female Member of Parliament, it is a serious concern to use a torch while stitching a woman after her giving birth.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, the clinic I am talking about has no water supply.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

Ms Kasanda: Water is cardinal to sanitation, especially where delivering is administered.  Unfortunately, that clinic had no water.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Ms Kasanda: I would like to thank the people who came to our aid and made water available in that clinic. Right now, we have a borehole at that clinic, not through the Government but well-wishers.

 

Madam Speaker, it is disheartening to find that after fifty-three years of independence our people are still getting water from crocodile infested rivers like Mwembeshi. Many of our people have been lost to crocodiles, especially children. It is time that our Government shared the national cake equally.

 

Madam Speaker, I would also like to talk about mining. In Chisamba, in Lwampaya Ward, we have Chinese mining for gold while they are say they are prospecting. How long are they going to be prospecting?

 

Mr Ngulube: Twenty years

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, that gold is being taken out of the country while we, the owners, remain poor.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Imagine.

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, we need to look at this issue of prospecting because people are actually mining and evading taxes.

 

Madam Speaker, we have schools like the Mulungushi Agro, where children are still sleeping on the floor in classrooms. These are girl children who cook for themselves and some of them are selling their bodies to buy food, yet we talk about HIV/AIDS, saying that new infections will come to an end. We are talking about testing and treating, how are we going to stop new infections? It is only when the Government get involved, and addresses the many challenges at hand.

 

Madam Speaker, I would like to speak to our country planners as they plan for infrastructure in the country. May they go back to their geography and development studies books so that they know where the boundaries are in the various parts of the country. I would like to give an example of the Toll Gate that is called Katuba. That gate is in Chisamba.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda: The planners did not do a research to find out where that toll gate is supposed to be. Therefore, the name for that Toll Gate should be changed to Chisamba Toll Gate.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kasanda: Madam Speaker, it seems so many people do not know where these boundaries are in the constituencies.

 

My other concern, Madam Speaker, is on the National Registration Cards (NRCs). So many of our people do not have these cards because our councils, like my council, which is new, do not have facilities to produce NRCs, and therefore, my plea to this Government is that, we share that money equally. We are all here to serve the people of Zambia.

 

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, Chisamba is only sixty kilometres away from Lusaka. In his address to this august House, the President said he does not want to leave anybody behind. Therefore, even us in the Opposition; do not want to be left behind. If we have to achieve this goal of unity and attain it, ... (Ms Kasanda’s time expired) Madam Speaker, I thank you. We need unity.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I have received a special request that the hon. Minister of Agriculture would like to debate and respond to the many issues that have been raised concerning her ministry. The hon. Minister will next week be travelling out of the country. Hon. Minister, note that you will have less than ten minutes to respond to the issues as we have to adjourn at 1255 hours.

 

The Minister of Agriculture (Ms Siliya): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity. I will try to speak as quickly as possible.

 

Madam Speaker, I have been listening attentively to the debate on the Budget Speech from both the radio and this House. Alas, I must say that it is quite saddening to note that some of the contributions we have had leave much to be desired.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, the 2018 Budget was presented against a very stable background. I was on an aeroplane reading a newspaper from South Africa and Moody’s Investors Service was quoted as having upgraded Zambia’s ratings from a negative position. As I read this newspaper, I was very perturbed because I knew that there is a group of Zambians who would have been very happy to read negativities about Zambia. However, here was a foreign newspaper saying something positive about Zambia.

 

Madam Speaker, yesterday, somebody was talking about stability. I want to say that stability is critical to the growth of the economy, and this is why we say that numbers do not lie. The hon. Minister of Finance’s proposal on the Budget was against stability of the exchange rate and Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth from 2015 to now. It was also against stability in terms of copper prices and the political and security situation in the country.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, some people questioned why the public order and safety budget was more than that of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). That was comparing apples to oranges.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my left!

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, for a country’s economy to grow, it is very important …

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Minister, give me just a few seconds.

 

Hon. Members on my left, let us have order. You had your time and you debated. The hon. Minister is responding to the issues you have been raising. Give her an opportunity to do so. You cannot drown her. Continue, hon. Minister.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I have been in this House for a long time. We always have to ask ourselves what we will be remembered for. I remember that whenever the former hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa stood up to debate, he would say something constructive.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Siliya: It is saddening that some hon. Members who have come now are only interested in talking about Dora Siliya’s face.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order on my left! Hon. Minister, you might lose the ten minutes that you have. Please, focus. There are many issues that were raised which I hope you can address.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, all we have heard about the Budget is a choreographed shout about corruption. I believe that we are doing ourselves a disservice. The things that those who want to be in Government are talking about would haunt them if they were in Government. However, we do not take them seriously.

 

The fight is just about power. If Members of Parliament want to develop their constituencies, then they should know that the game of politics is about negotiations. One cannot, on the one hand come here, and start shouting against Members of the Executive, but in the corridors he or she is begging for the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) resources for his or her constituency. Politics is a game of negotiations.

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, ...

 

Hon. UPND Members rose.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members, take your seats.

 

Interruptions

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Leader of the Opposition, you cannot exhibit such conduct.

 

Hon. Government Members interjected.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Members on my right, let us have order! Hon. Leader of the Opposition, I expect that you will help maintain order on this side of the House. Please sit down. I have not given you an opportunity to speak.

 

Hon. UPND Members resumed their seats.

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture is responding to the issues that have been raised.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: She has not singled out anyone who has approached her. I expect some order from you hon. Members on the left. The hon. Minister of Agriculture may continue.

 

Ms Siliya: Madam Speaker, I heard people grumbling about the K60 maize price. First of all, the people that the Government supports through FISP are the same people that we go back to buy maize from. Therefore, their price is not K70, like the one for commercial farmers. The average price of K60 is good enough. Besides, the cost of production is not the same everywhere in the country. That is why various players buy at different prices from farmers. For instance, I know that in Choma, maize was being offered for as low as K30. I heard Chief Zombe talking about how, somewhere near Nakonde, it is being offered at K120. So, the cost of production is not the same. Similarly, the purchasing power is not the same. Honestly, there is no floor price that has been set by the Government. The Government is only offering to buy at a price it can afford in a market where other people can also buy.

 

Madam Speaker, it is also important to note that for the first time, the Ministry of Agriculture is working with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare to ensure that we support the social sector. This is why over 100 per cent of the provision has been allocated for free packs. That is because the Government knows that it has to support the poor people. It also knows that in terms of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme (SCTS), the budgetary allocation has increased by 30 per cent. For rural electrification, the budget support is over 100 per cent. This is a coordinated presentation of the Budget together with the Seventh National Development Plan (7th NDP). Let me quote what President Lungu told people in Lundazi:

 

“No one owes you a living. Stand up and work smart. Let your absence be felt, but also, let your presence count.”

 

Madam Speaker, while we are in this House, we should ensure our presence is felt. We should not just be remembered for choreographed shouting about corruption because the people in our constituencies will vote us out. My advice to my colleagues who have been lamenting in their debate is that it is time to focus and analyse the Budget and also offer suggestions, especially on revenue generation because choreographed shouting about corruption whether it is about the acquisition of fire tenders or road contracts, without specifications, it is truly a waste of the people of Zambia’s time. These are the people who brought all of us here.

 

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kasonso (Solwezi West): Madam Speaker, I want to quickly comment on the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Finance. The theme for the 2018 Budget is “Accelerating Fiscal Fitness for Sustained Inclusive Growth, without Leaving anyone behind.”

 

Madam Speaker, before I go any further, the last five years of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, ...

 

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

 

(Debate adjourned)

 

_________

 

The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 17th October, 2017.

 

_________