DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 5th July, 2013 

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

___________  

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR DEPUTY SPEAKER

COMMISSIONING OF SECOND PARLIAMENT RADIO STUDIO

Mr Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform hon. Members that as part of Parliamentary Reforms and, in a bid to improve radio transmission of parliamentary debates and activities to the Zambian public, the National Assembly of Zambia engaged Mangrova Engineering Systems Limited to supply and install an audio production studio. This facility, which will be the second Parliament Radio Studio, is meant to be a backup to the first studio which currently airs live parliamentary debates and also produces various parliamentary programmes. The second Parliament Radio Studio will be commissioned on Monday, 8th July, 2013, starting at 1030 hours at the reception of the Main Parliament Building. 

Hon. Members of the following Committees are invited to attend the event:

(a)Reforms and Modernisation Committee;

(b)Committee on Information and Broadcasting Services;

(c)Committee on Education, Science and Technology; and 

(d)Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply.

I thank you.

____________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 9th July, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider a Motion to adopt the Report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation.

Sir, on Wednesday, 10th July, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider two Private Members’ Motions to:

(a)reinstate subsidies. This will be moved by the hon. Member for Solwezi Central; and

(b)accelerate efforts for the attainment of millennium development goals (MDGs). This will be moved by the hon. Member for Bweengwa.

On Thursday, 11th July, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Motions to adopt the reports of the following Committees:

(a)Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs; and

(b)Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Implementation of Gender Mainstreaming Activities in Zambia.

Sir, I hope it is not too early for hon. Members to digest that enormous sentence, unless they want me to repeat it, in case they have not woken up. It reads, “The Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs on the Report of the Auditor-General on the Implementation of Gender Mainstreaming Activities in Zambia”. That is as clear as I can make it.

Sir, on Friday, 12th July, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with ‘Hon. Muntanga’s Question Time’, that is, His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will deal with the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider a Motion to adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee. Then, the House will consider any other business that may be outstanding.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

____________ 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

HOSTING OF THE COSAFA TOURNAMENT

The Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Kambwili) walked towards the Table.

Mr Kosamu: Boma! Boma!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

You were told not to behave like that, hon. Minister.

Hon. Opposition Members: Which one?

Mr Deputy Speaker: I mean the hon. Minister for Central Province.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: You should stop that.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to inform the House and the nation on the preparations to host the Council of Southern African Football Associations (COSAFA) Senior Challenge Cup which will take place from tomorrow 6th to 20th July, 2013, in Lusaka and the Copperbelt provinces.

Sir, the COSAFA Senior Challenge Cup is an annual tournament for teams from the Southern African Region organised by COSAFA. Countries that have previously hosted the tournament include South Africa, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Botswana and Angola. Zambia was requested by the COSAFA Congress to host this year’s edition of the COSAFA Senior Challenge Cup due to the last moment withdrawal by Malawi coupled with the fact that the country had adequate infrastructure to host the tournament. The Government’s decision to host the tournament was made in view of the plan to host the Africa Cup of Nations in the near future that requires the bidder to have, at least, hosted a Federation Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) recognised-tournament.

Mr Speaker, a total of thirteen teams have expressed interest to participate in this year’s tournament, namely Angola, Botswana, Kenya, Lesotho, Malawi, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Seychelles, South Africa, Swaziland, Zambia and Zimbabwe. Kenya is coming in as an invited team.

Sir, four venues have been identified to host the games. Nkoloma Stadium in Lusaka will host the pre-qualifier matches, Nkana and Arthur Davies stadiums in Kitwe will also host the pre-qualifier and quarter final matches. The Levy Mwanawasa Stadium will host the semi-final and final matches.

Mr Speaker, the august House may wish to know that this year’s tournament will be sponsored by South African Breweries that is meeting the costs of the return air tickets for the teams, accommodation and food for all the teams and prizes for the winning teams. The House may also wish to know that the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) has engaged Zambian Breweries, Mopani Copper Mines plc and MTN-Zambia for local sponsorship. Zambian Breweries will meet the costs of publicity and hospitality at match venues. Further, Kansanshi Mines will help the Government to sponsor the cost of local airfares for the teams and officials travelling between Lusaka and the Copperbelt.

Sir, the role of Zambia, as a host country, will be to provide match venues, training venues, publicity of games, local transport, local airfares, VIP and media hospitality at all matches, security and medical services and incidentals. An estimated cost of KR15 million will be required to facilitate the successful hosting of the tournament. The Government has engaged various corporate entities to come on board and contribute towards this event and the response has been overwhelming.

Mr Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that the preparations to host the tournament are on course. To ensure the success of the tournament, the Government, through my ministry, has formed local organising committees, both in Lusaka and the Copperbelt, consisting of members from various ministries and organisations. 

Sir, the Government attaches importance to this tournament and is determined to host it successfully because it will provide the country with an opportunity to host higher profile international tournaments such as the Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) and the World Cup. It should be noted that the success in hosting this tournament does not depend on having the money, but the zeal, enthusiasm and focus of the Government. 

Further, Sir, hosting this tournament will enhance Zambia’s position as a potential sports tourism destination and will inspire the majority of the youth to engage in sport. This will help to eliminate idle time among the youth and reduce temptations to engage in vices such as crime and drug abuse. Other benefits of hosting the COSAFA Games include the following:

(a)better the image of the country after successfully hosting the Zone VI Games;

(b)expose athletes to regional competition and enhance management skills;

(c)enhance Zambia’s position as a potential sports tourism destination;

(d)generate a considerable amount of direct and indirect economic activities, resulting in employment creation and revenue generation for the country;

(e)develop infrastructure. The facilities, in particular, the stadiums that will be used during the period, have received a facelift as follows:
 
(i)the floodlights at the Nkoloma Stadium have been worked on;

(ii)the parking area for the VIP at the Arthur Davis Stadium has been improved; 

(iii)the change rooms at Nkana Stadium have been improved;

(iv)electronic score boards have been installed at each of the stadiums; and

(v)technical benches have been fitted at each of the stadiums. 

All these renovations have been made to bring the stadiums to international standards.

(f)the hospitality industry in the targeted towns will benefit through the athletes and officials’ stay at hostels and lodges in Ndola, Kitwe and Lusaka. In addition, the various caterers will be providing snacks and beverages, hence the tournament will provide business opportunities. Vendors have also been given an opportunity to sell their products in designated places; and

(g)contribute to the promotion of sport as an economic venture.

Mr Speaker, the hosting of sports events of this magnitude is an expensive venture that requires substantial human, material and financial resources. Clearly, it is necessary for the Government, business community and co-operating partners to join hands in mobilising the necessary resources to ensure the successful hosting of the games.

Mr Speaker, allow me to thank all the sponsors for supporting the Government in hosting the COSAFA Senior Challenge Cup. Without their contribution, the burden would have been heavier on the Government. Special thanks go to Kansanshi Mine, Mopani Copper Mines plc, MTN-Zambia and Zambian Breweries. I, therefore, call upon the business houses to emulate the above-listed companies so that, in future, we can work together to provide more entertainment to the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, most of the games have been taken to the Copperbelt and not Lusaka. Why did the ministry not divide the games equally between the two hosting provinces?

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Let us consult quietly so that the hon. Minister can hear the questions.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it should be noted that COSAFA insists on certain standards to be met for stadiums to host games. Therefore, when COSAFA came to inspect Nkoloma, Sunset and Woodlands stadiums, only Nkoloma was certified to be fit to host the tournament. We, therefore, had no option but to take the games to the Copperbelt where the stadiums met the required standards. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister on the ministerial statement and the efforts that he is making in taking bold decisions of hosting major tournaments.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalila: Hon. Minister, lately, we have seen a very chaotic manner in which tickets are sold to the extent where we almost lost a life. I would like to find out from you what steps you are taking to ensure that FAZ makes it as smooth as possible for citizens to procure tickets for the matches.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we have engaged MTN outlets throughout the country to help in the selling of tickets to avoid congestion at post offices. Each person can only buy a maximum of two tickets so that we allow other people to get tickets. We have also instructed the police to confiscate tickets that are sold at undesignated areas. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, when Malawi withdrew from hosting the COSAFA Senior Challenge Cup, were there any other countries, apart from Zambia, that wanted to host the tournament?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, indeed, there were other countries, but COSAFA saw it fit that we be given the opportunity to host the tournament in view of the fact that we have applied to host the AFCON in 2019. Like I said earlier, it is a pre-requisite for any country that wants to host the AFCON to have hosted a regional tournament or any FIFA-recognised tournament. So, we were given the opportunity to host the tournament in view of the fact that we have shown interest to host the 2019 AFCON.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, notwithstanding the several benefits that are coming with this tournament, could the hon. Minister tell us how much income Zambia is expected to earn at the end of this tournament?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it is extremely difficult to quantify the benefit at this stage because we do not know how many people will go through the gates to watch the games. However, we are mindful of the fact that Zambia is a football-loving nation and that the people of Zambia like to watch football. We are very hopeful that we will break even.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, preparedness is a major pre-requisite to the success of any event. Regarding the COSAFA Tournament, I heard the District Commissioner for Kitwe, Mr Elias Kamanga, say that they would like to remove vendors from the street during the COSAFA Games. This is an action which is against the PF’s policy which has recognised street vending as a normal way of conducting business.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I would like to know what has prompted the Government to pretend that there are no street vendors during this particular period of the COSAFA Games. Why have you not let business go on as usual as per your policy of allowing street vendors to trade anywhere?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, it is not true that allowing street vending is the PF’s policy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Kambwili: However, the PF is cognisant of the fact that people must survive and that before people are taken off the street, alternative trading places must be found. Therefore, it is folly for anybody to claim that the PF has a policy that allows street vending. We are only mindful of the fact that people have to survive. By the way, those are the people we represent in this House. We are here because of the people of Zambia. Therefore, if we do not care about the poor of the poor, then we have lost it. Having said that, let me state that Mr Kamanga did not state that we were removing vendors from the streets in Kitwe. He said that street vendors would be removed from the corridors near Hotel Edinburgh so that there is no congestion for our visitors.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, my question was taken by Hon. Nkombo. However, I wish that one of the matches could be played in Mongu so that my brothers can also watch football.

Mr W. Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, this is a very important tournament and it will give exposure to our players and referees. How many Zambian referees will officiate at the games?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, eight Zambian referees are going to officiate at the games.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, what measures have been put in place to bar soccer fans from going into the stadiums with beer and other beverages?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier, we have formed various committees and one of them is the Security Committee. We have given strict instructions that there should be no beer allowed in the stadiums.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, in relation to the street vendors you are removing from the streets on the corridors near Edinburgh Hotel, I would like to find out whether this is just a temporary measure or whether the street vendors will go back to the corridors after the COSAFA Games.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, as long as we do not find alternative places for trading, they are free to go back.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, people in rural areas can only listen to radio broadcasts of the games or watch them on television. Can consideration be made to record the games so that we, the poor people in rural areas, can watch them?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I believe that, as at now, almost 70 per cent of the country is able to watch television. I think that, in future, we will improve the television coverage. At the same time, we have started building stadiums in rural areas. For instance, we have started building the Mongu Stadium, we are building a stadium in Livingstone and we shall also build one in the North-Western Province. We are going to put up stadiums all over the country so that games of this nature can be taken to rural areas for the rural people to enjoy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, who has been given the television rights to broadcast the COSAFA matches?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it is the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, Kabwe was one of the first towns to be listed under the towns that were supposed to host the COSAFA Games. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there was a second assessment that made Kabwe to be removed from the list.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, indeed, Godfrey ‘Yucar’ Chitalu Stadium was proposed as one of the stadiums to be used for the games. However, when the delegation from COSAFA came to inspect it, it pointed out that there were certain things that needed to be done in order to bring the stadium to acceptable standards. Unfortunately, Zambia Railways is just coming in the fold and the Government did not have enough money to carry out the renovations within a short period. Therefore, the decision was made to move the games to stadiums that were certified fit for use.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, in order to have a very successful tournament, the ministry needs to advertise more. What has the ministry done in terms of advertisements? So far, only one advertisement has been featured. Is this the only advertisement that will be featured for this tournament?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, surely, if the hon. Member recognises the fact that there is an advertisement, then it means that we are doing everything possible to advertise the event. We have asked the radio stations to also carry the advertisement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that, currently, a stadium is under construction in Mongu after which one will be built in Livingstone and the next one will be built in Solwezi. I would like to know when a stadium is going to be built in Solwezi.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, you know that building stadiums is a massive investment. Therefore, as soon as the construction of the stadium in Livingstone has been completed, we will approach the Ministry of Finance to fund us for the stadium in Solwezi.

I thank you, Sir.

__________{mospagebreak}

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Hon. Opposition Members all stood up.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Since His Honour the Vice-President, when outlining the business for the House this week, said that this was Question Time for Hon. Muntanga, I will allow Hon. Muntanga to ask the first question.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like His Honour the Vice-President to categorically state the position of his Government on the question of hon. Members of Parliament that wish to do their jobs in their constituencies, and whether they now have to obtain a police permit to do that. I want that to be categorically cleared.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, as you are aware, a meeting has been called next Wednesday involving the Whips of the various political parties, the hon. Minister of Justice, and myself to settle this issue in the mind of everybody once and for all. With the indulgence of Hon. Muntanga, whose question time I agree that it is, we can resolve this issue within a matter of days.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, Egypt seems to be on fire. I want to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what measures the Government is taking to safeguard the lives of Zambian citizens in Egypt.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, all we can do is monitor the situation. We cannot move our police there. The policing is being done by Egyptians of one sort or the other. Our mission is also keeping an eye on the situation. That is all I can say at this stage.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, the people of Luano Valley are happy with His Honour the Vice-President for doing a good job concerning the Mailoni brothers. The people of Luano Valley are also appealing to your good office for relief maize so that they can start life afresh. This is because most of them moved to Kabwe and Mkushi during the terror of the Mailoni brothers. Now that the Mailoni brothers are no more, the people are going back to the valley.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

May you, please, ask your question.

Mr Chisanga: Secondly, Mr Speaker, are the flying doctor services going to be resumed in the Luano Valley?

The Vice-President: There is a sting in the tail there. I thought you were asking about relief food and, suddenly, you moved on to the issue of the flying doctor services. We shall obviously resume the flying doctor services into Luano Valley, provided the security, which is the reason they were withdrawn, in the first place, is adequate. As long as they are the only Miloni brothers and they are the ones that have been killed, security ought to be absolutely assured.

Sir, as far as food relief is concerned in Mkushi South, Mkushi is one of the districts slated for food for work and free maize in the coming nine months. It is one out of the eighteen districts that have been selected. So, the hon. Member may rest assured on that.

I thank you, Mr speaker.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, there have been a lot of reports in the media stating that the PF cadres are grabbing plots. What is your comment on that?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member must be psychic because I just happened to be reading this morning, an advertisement in today’s Zambia Daily Mail taken out by Hon. Wynter Kabimba, the Secretary General of the PF. I will read it for the benefit of hon. Members just so there is avoidance of doubt on this issue. It is a public notice which has come to the attention of the PF. It says:

“Some unscrupulous people in Lusaka District under the guise of the Patriotic Front have been going round grabbing private pieces of land or allocating pieces of land without lawful authority or consent from such landowners. These activities do not have the blessing of the Patriotic Front which stands for the respect of private property and also law and order, not only in Lusaka District but also the entire country. Law enforcement agencies should, therefore, deal with such illegal activities accordingly.

Signed

Wynter M. Kabimba, ODS, SC., Secretary General.” 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I give up the question.

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, a couple of weeks ago, there were media reports indicating that the PF Government intends to re-introduce price control in this country. May I know what the policy of the PF is regarding price control in terms of goods and services in this country.

The Vice-President: We are not returning to the past. We know from our experiences and history that attempts to directly control prices generally failed and led to shortages which, in turn, led to higher prices than the free market would otherwise be commanding.

Of course, we have areas where we are trying to put some downward pressure, let us put it that way, on prices and one particular price is the interest rate which has been and remains a source of concern to this Government. We want people to be able to borrow money on a long term at low interest rates to buy houses and invest in business. Unfortunately, we are still battling with the banks.

 However, even that is not direct price control. It is a process of negotiation whereby we want to put this country on a more local species. 

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, since there is a Government in Somalia and, considering that Zambia is hosting a lot of Somalis, has the Government established diplomatic relations with Somalia? If not, are there plans to do so and when?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think to say that there is a Government in Somalia is a preposition that is not necessarily cast in concrete. We have not yet established diplomatic relations with the Somali Government although we are giving help to the African Union (AU) countries that are attempting to bring sanity back to Somalia. 

Sir, you can be assured that as and when the situation of the Somali Government stabilises, we will recognise it and do something or negotiate with the question of immigration between the two countries.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Speaker, early this year, we had floods, especially in Mazabuka District that left a number of roads in a deplorable state. A number of bridges were also washed away. May I know when His Honour the Vice-President’s team will work on these roads and bridges.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I still have to try to plead with some hon. Opposition Members and even my own hon. Members that when they want questions about specific places, dates, and so on and so forth, they should let me have even half an hour’s notice. I can get on the phone and speak to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and get answers to such questions. However, I cannot do it here and now because I have even forgotten my phone in my office. I cannot phone the DMMU now and give you the answer to that. I will look into this matter and send the hon. Member a note answering his question on Tuesday.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, we have noticed that there has been …

Interruptions

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: … a one sided-massive sensitisation of the public on the benefits of the removal of subsidy on fuel. I would like to find out when this House and the nation will be informed about the plans on what these saved funds will be used for as has been the case in the Ministries of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, and Health infrastructure.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as I explained last week, a particular kwacha saved or raised in a particular way does not necessarily become another particular kwacha that is spent in a certain way. There is a pool of kwacha coming from many sources and then an outflow of kwacha into many destinations. Therefore, to actually say when this money is saved, it will go to this purpose, is not possible although the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development spelt out, I thought in quite an interesting way, how the strategic reserves of fuel would be funded by some of the savings made on the fuel subsidy.

However, specifically, we want to try to fund the important things in life. For example, we want to try and fund free education, which we would love to see all the way through to the end of secondary school. Those are the kind of things we are saving money for. We will implement them as and when we are able to do so but, as long this money is hemorrhaging on maize or maize-related expenditures and fuel, we cannot give the people the things they need and want.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, it has been reported in the media, both electronic and print, that one of the candidates in the Kafulafuta By-election collapsed and has since withdrawn from the race. May I know whether, indeed, the candidate for the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) has withdrawn from the race in Kafulafuta.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, my understanding of the Electoral Act is that you cannot withdraw from an election once you have been nominated. You can withdraw your enthusiasm or your commitment, …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … but you cannot withdraw the fact that your name is going to be on the ballot paper. The only situation that will allow that and, perhaps, it is a shortcoming of the Act, is when the candidate is not well. There may be a clause referring to where the candidate is plainly not fit, except that you open the door to all kinds of contingencies. However, if the candidate dies, then the election is cancelled and there is a fresh registration process. That is the law as far as I am aware.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the Government is on record of having said that judicial reforms were going to be undertaken. How far have the judicial reforms gone?

The Vice-President: They are in the workings in the Ministry of Justice and I will pass that question on. I will ask the hon. Minister of Justice, if he can, to make a statement to enlighten you on how far we have gone. I am sure that is the only answer that the hon. Member expected.

Mr Mbewe indicated assent.

The Vice-President: As we stand here, incidentally, a very eminent Zambian’s funeral is being conducted at Saint Ignatius Church. Mr Dominic Mulaisho was an economist, special advisor to State House, Governor of the Bank of Zambia and more than anything that will keep his memory alive, he wrote books such as the Tongue of the Dumb and Smoke that Thunders. He is being put to rest today, and yet I am being kept away from saying goodbye to my friend. So, I hope the quality of the questions justifies that fact.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chansa (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, what is the Government doing to show income and expenditure in the Ministry of Finance so that there are no rumors of Budget overruns from some Opposition leaders and other people? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there are pages and pages of pull-outs being published in the Government papers, especially by amateur accountants and ministers of finance or future ministers of finance to enlighten people as to exactly what is going on. I should have virtually brought a paper to this House with the information that has been made public by the Minister of Finance.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, any new job requires some amount of orientation for one to perform in accordance with the expectations of the people who employ him/her. Is there any deliberate orientation in the PF Government of His Excellency the President, His Honour the Vice-President, hon. Ministers and their Deputy Ministers in diplomatic etiquette for the country to stop getting the humiliation and embarrassment that go with reckless statements? For Example, what may have been quoted or misquoted by His Honor the Vice-President by The Guardian that South Africans are backward and, most recently, by one of his Deputy Ministers who said that Mr Nelson Mandela had died? Is there any deliberate policy to orient members on diplomatic etiquette? 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there is no deliberate policy to orient the President on diplomatic etiquette. Who on earth would do that? Do you expect the President to sit there and be lectured to by some ex-ambassadors or others? Likewise, there is only verbal spread of information about how I should behave.

Laughter

The Vice-President: What The Guardian did not quote was that I said the difference between Zambia and South Africa is that, historically, South Africa is backward. It is still being run by its freedom fighters in less than twenty years since Independence. Zambia is fifty years old. That is what I said and what The Guardian deliberately chopped off because it became more controversial. You cannot stop the press. It is the press that needs orientation not the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, we have read and heard through the international and local media that a rebel group in Mozambique by the name of Mozambican National Resistance (RENAMO) has gone back to fight the Government. In the 1980s when it did that, it terrorised a lot of Zambians because it wanted to get some supplies from Zambia.

What assurance is the Government giving to the people of the Eastern Province that what happened in the 1980s will not happen to them again?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the situation is well under control. We know exactly what is happening in Mozambique and we know exactly where the dangers are of any percolation of those problems across into the Zambian side. The ‘Man Mountain’, the Minister of Defence, has got it very well under observation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, what is your policy on the development of the North-Western Province, especially since most Government revenue is coming from there, but the infrastructure in the North-Western Province is in a deplorable state?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should avoid making simplistic connections. When money is coming from this village or province, it does not mean that we should, therefore, develop or pump it back into that province or village.

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: We are very appreciative of the money which is coming from the North-Western Province and are cognisant of the need to develop the province. For example, the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project has roads in the North-Western Province.

Mr Speaker, as we speak, I think we are about to complete tarring the road up to Chavuma, which is an extremely long way, and not a place of great economic significance. The road from Solwezi to Kipushi is slated for commencement this year as is, incidentally, the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa M8 Road which is up for a technical economic feasibility study. 

Sir, I was interested in why it had been delayed and I was told by the Road Development Agency (RDA), and it is quite an interesting story, that there were two possible ways to Kalabo. One is directly across the flood plain, which is a highly expensive project undertaken by the previous Government, and the other was this road through Lukulu, round the back through Liuwa into Kalabo. Unfortunately, they are competing with each other. 

However, the North-Western Province is a priority for development. That is why we go there, create new districts and contest elections.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, last year, the PF deported a parish priest from Lundazi, an act which definitely impacted negatively on our international relations with Rwanda.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Ms Lubezhi: Fortunately, they realised that it was a wrong move and he was allowed back into the country.

Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honor the Vice-President …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Ms Lubezhi: … what punitive measures were taken on the officers from the Ministry of Home Affairs who inconvenienced, embarrassed and wrongly deported Father Banyangadoro?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is assuming many things. She is assuming that it was civil servants …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: … who made the decision to deport the said priest. He had stood up and started campaigning against the Government, in our collective opinion, outside of the normal limits of preaching. He was deported, he appealed and his petition was granted. Is that not correct, hon. Minister of Home Affairs?

Mr E. C. Lungu indicated assent.

The Vice-President: I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, a number of infrastructure projects such as the one for Libonda High School have come to a halt and have been abandoned. At the same time, we are hearing announcements of new bomas where the priority is to construct offices for the district commissioners (DCs). What is the priority of this Government? Is it to construct high schools for many people or to construct offices for one person in a district?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, you cannot go to a restaurant and eat everything on the menu unless it is a very simple restaurant, a kantemba, perhaps, somewhere in Liuwa where they have, sometimes, one item on the menu, I am informed. The fact is that there are trade-offs all the time. For example, Lukulu West is no longer called Lukulu West. It is a new district. It is getting a new boma and I did not hear any complaints from the ordinary people in Lukulu West when I went to campaign there. These are matters of judgment, priority and negotiation. The hon. Member is a former Minister of Finance and he knows very well how difficult it is to do everything at once.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge): Mr Speaker, may I know if the Government will continue to provide relief food to the people of Kilwa Island of Nchelenge Constituency up to May next year.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I will make a detailed statement and distribute to all hon. Members a very fat report on the relief food situation in Zambia next week. As I recall, Nchelenge, where Kilwa is located, is one of the beneficiary districts of relief food. Not only are there eighteen districts that are actually already slated for a total of twelve-and-a-half thousand tonnes of maize relief, but we also have another eighteen districts under surveillance and we are keeping regular track of how the situation is evolving. I think the hon. Member need not be too worried. We will not miss Kilwa out even though they might do their shopping in the Congo.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, I would like to ask His Honour the Vice-President when his office is going to resettle the affected people of Kampasa Area who were evicted from the Galaun and Zambia National Service land.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the process is ongoing. There are two types of settlers. There are genuinely vulnerable people who have been there for a long time and are being resettled. The others are speculators. They are carpetbaggers from Lusaka who have been selling tu phone. These are phony cadres. These are cadres who were wearing blue chitenges two years ago and are now wearing green ones and flying flags, claiming to be PF members. Those are fake and they will not be resettled on both the Galaun and Zambia National Service land. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The Zambia National Service and Galaun farms, who are landowners, have both donated land for the resettlement of bona fide settlers. Nobody is going to be treated unjustly. What happened was that there was a little mafia setting up a business. The hon. Member for Chongwe, the DMMU, Resettlement Department, the police and I got together and have sorted out that problem. This is in line with a statement from Hon. Kabimba to the effect that we are not tolerating lawlessness in the allocation and grabbing of land in Zambia. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, when will the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) start buying maize from the small-scale farmers?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would say that it will be done very shortly. The moisture content in maize in the Southern Province is now down below 13 per cent. It is only in the Southern Province where the moisture content is at this level. In the other provinces it is still above 13 per cent and we do not want to buy maize in a condition where if you store it in bulk, it will become rotten. Let me reassure the Member that the time is near. I do not have an exact date, and I cannot see the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock here. Therefore, I cannot ask him the precise date, but I would say this will be done this month.

I thank you, Sir.

Lt-Gen Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, this afternoon, after the House rises, I am going to Keembe to address the voters. Do I need a police permit, His Honour the Vice-President?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Earlier on, we were told that there would be a meeting with the Whips and we will be able to come to that subject thereafter. 

Interruptions

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, Your Honour, you rebased the kwacha recently, which was very good but, usually, that is based on the inflation rate. I am worried because I can see the inflation rate going up. Can you give a guarantee that the zeros which were knocked out of the kwacha will not come back.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, one day, it may be in a hundred or a thousand years’ time, the zeros will come back because one of the mysteries of economics is that the prices of commodities generally rise, speaking on the long term. In the short term, we do not see the zeros coming back. The total loss of value of the kwacha against the dollar is of the order of 10 to 15 per cent over last year and is largely due to the strengthening of the dollar rather than weakening of the kwacha. In fact, the Kwacha has performed better than the South African Rand has against the dollar. Ours is actually a stronger currency than the rand. So, I advise you to put your money in rand if you want to save it.

I thank you, Sir.

____________{mospagebreak}

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

LABORATORIES AT KAMBWALI AND KILWA CLINICS IN NCHELENGE

666. Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge) asked the Minister of Health when the Government would construct laboratories at Kambwali and Kilwa clinics in Nchelenge.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, the laboratories at Kambwali and Kilwa Island clinics in Nchelenge District will be constructed in 2014.

I thank you, Sir.

HEARSES FOR KASHIKISHI AND KABUTA WARDS IN NCHELENGE

667. Mr Mpundu asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Government would purchase hearses for Kashikishi and Kabuta wards in Nchelenge Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that, currently, there are no plans to purchase hearses for Kashikishi and Kabuta wards in Nchelenge Parliamentary Constituency. It should be noted that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is not purchasing hearses for wards, but parliamentary constituencies in particular.

Sir, the Government is encouraging all councils to purchase such assets through their resources using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), if need arises.

I thank you, Sir. 

FRA DEPOTS IN CHANTETE WARD IN KWACHA

668. Mr Mutale (Kwacha) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock when the FRA would establish depots in Chantete Ward in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency.

Interruptions 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, let us have order on both my right and left. We are making really disturbing noise.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Kazabu): Mr Speaker, before I answer the question, I want to apologise to the House for my bad voice projection. I am struggling with a bad cough.

Sir, the FRA will open satellite depots in Chantete Ward in Kwacha Parliamentary Constituency whenever there will be an increase in crop production. The establishment of satellite depots by the FRA is mainly influenced by high crop production, the availability of basic storage facilities and the accessibility of that particular area by way of good access roads. In addition, the total amount of grain the FRA expects to purchase during a specific marketing season will also determine the number of depots to be opened. Usually, the higher the volumes, the more satellite depots to be opened.

In view of the foregoing, if, during any particular farming season, it is determined that Chantete Ward has produced enough maize, the FRA will consider opening satellite depots.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to take advantage of the question that has been raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kwacha and the answer that has been given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock pertaining to the purchase of maize in Kwacha Constituency. I would like to find out whether the hon. Deputy Minister is aware that this year, food security in terms of maize is threatened due to the failure by the FRA to buy the maize. Hence, by the time it will decide to buy the maize, most of it will have been bought by private institutions. In the Southern Province, in particular, Dunavant has bought almost all the maize at K67 per 50 kg bag. Does he think that there will be food security, considering that there has been a delay in instituting the purchase of maize?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, we, as a ministry, are aware that private buyers have already gone into the market to buy maize from smallholder farmers and, indeed, commercial farmers. However, I wish to explain to the House that the only reason the FRA has not commenced the purchase of maize this year is the one that His Honour the Vice-President has already referred to, which is that the moisture content is still very high. The standard is that the moisture content should drop to about 12 per cent.  In the Southern Province, we are aware of the recent report that the moisture content has come down and I am sure that in the next two weeks, the FRA will move into the market to start buying maize from farmers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, hon. Minister, in your view, which is a more prudent thing to do, to wait for the moisture content, which is above the recommended moisture content by 1 per cent, or to secure the maize and then collect it into storage later for citizens not to be threatened with a shortage of food as we go towards the end of the year? Is it more prudent to secure the maize by paying for it thereby circumventing the traders that Hon, Mwiimbu spoke about who are mopping up all the maize or for you to go into the market with your idea of 11 or 12 per cent moisture content and find no maize on the market?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, it will not do us any good to buy maize with a high moisture content. By so doing, we would be taking a high risk. What we know is that the private buyers have gone to buy maize in areas that are easily accessible and are near the line of rail and, indeed, the main major roads. In regard to the maize that is in the far-flung areas, we know that the private buyers have not gone there. That is what is giving us the level of comfort that we will still be in a position to buy the maize that we require for the national strategic food reserves.

I thank you, Sir.

PASSENGER WATER VESSELS ON LAKE TANGANYIKA

669. Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications:

(a)when the ministry would provide passenger water vessels on Lake Tanganyika for the people of Mpulungu, Nsumbu and Kaputa;

(b)which areas along Lake Tanganyika apart from the areas at (a) would be serviced by the vessels;

(c)which institutions would be given the responsibility of sensitising the public on water transport safety; and 

(d)when the sensitisation of the public on water transport safety would commerce.
 
The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications (Mr M. H. Malama): Mr Speaker, in the 2014 Budget, the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications intends to provide for the procurement of one passenger vessel for Lake Tanganyika to service Mpulungu, Nsumbu, Kaputa and all the surrounding areas.

However, at the moment, the Government is providing water transport services through a vessel belonging to St. George Fisheries Limited under the management of Mpulungu Harbour Corporation.

Sir, apart from the Port of Mpulungu, Kaputa and Nsumbu Harbour, the following are the stations serviced by the vessels:

(i)Tongwa;

(ii)Kapembwa Island;

(iii)Chiteshiba;

(iv)Mwense;

(v)Kabyolwe;

(vi)Chisanse; and

(vii)Mushi.

Mr Speaker, the Department of Maritime and Inland Waterways is the only organisation responsible for sensitising the public on safety of navigation.

Sir, the sensitisation on safety of navigation is an on-going programme by the Department of Maritime and Inland Waterways.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to take advantage of the good answer that has been given by the hon. Minister and find out from him whether his ministry is also considering providing water transport on Lake Kariba, considering that the people of Lake Kariba have also been suffering like the people of Bangweulu and other areas.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the question is on providing water vessels on Lake Tanganyika for the people of Mpulungu, Nsumbu and Kaputa. As a responsible Government, however, we know that even the people of Siavonga need water vessels on Lake Kariba. We will, therefore, look into this matter. 

I thank you, Sir.

DESKS FOR SESHEKE DISTRICT

670. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)whether the Government was aware that the desks that were sent to Sesheke District had not been distributed to schools and were stored at the District Education Board Secretary’s (DEBS) Office; and

(b)when the Government would send funds to the DEBS Office to enable the office to distribute the desks to the schools in the district. 

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, the ministry is aware that out of a total of the 5,000 desks that were sent to Sesheke District, only 3,000 have been distributed to the schools. There are, therefore, 2,000 more desks to be distributed within the third quarter of this year.  

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that most of the desks being sent to districts break on the way? Is there a deliberate policy to repair these desks before they are distributed? 

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the desks are sent to the DEBS offices unassembled. Therefore, when they get there, they should be assembled. If, however, there are any breakages, according to the contractual obligation between the supplier and the ministry, the supplier has to replace the desks that are damaged during the distribution process. 

I thank you, Sir. 

_______________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE DEPUTY SPEAKER

VISITORS IN THE SPEAKER’S GALLERY

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following hon. Members of Parliament from the National Assembly of Lesotho:

    Hon. Chalane Phori, MP, Leader of Delegation;
    Hon. Majoro Mohapi, MP;
    Hon. Thabiso Monyatsi, MP; 
    Ms Lerato Koro, Secretary to the Delegation; and
    Mrs Maphamoli Lekoetje, Commissioner for Co-operatives.

I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst. 

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

_____________ 

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, I know that the hon. Minister is aware that most of the desks being distributed to Sesheke, Gwembe and other districts are of poor quality and break in the middle before pupils even sit on them. I would like to find out from him if his ministry is ready to engage another contractor to make better desks than those being supplied at the moment. 

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, as far as I know, the ministry has not received any report from any of the DEBS offices to the effect that most of the desks distributed are of poor quality. Like I said earlier, during the inspection process on delivery at the DEBS Office, damages must be reported to the supplier so that desks that are damaged are replaced. 

Sir, on the occasions that the hon. Minister and I have travelled around the schools in provinces, we have not seen damaged desks or received any reports to that effect. However, we will investigate the matter and get the factual position. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kazonga (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures have been taken …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

Hon. Member for Vubwi, can you pose your question again. 

Dr Kazonga: Mr Speaker, I would like to know what measures have been taken to ensure that once the desks arrive at the DEBS office, they are quickly distributed to beneficiary schools. A case in point is Sesheke where only 3,000 out of 5,000 desks have, so far, been distributed. 

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, hon. Members are aware that it is not by design to keep desks at the DEBS office because they are meant for the pupils. The challenge has always been inadequate funding. The ministry is looking at ways of improving funding to the provinces and DEBS offices so that once the desks arrive, they are distributed to the schools as quickly as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the question of desks is very delicate. As you can see, hon. Minister, there are pupils in the Visitors’ Gallery above you from some school. In your own projection, when do you think that you will satisfy the demand for school desks countrywide so that those children that are seated up there stop clamouring for sitting space?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please, we are not supposed to make reference to the people up there. Simply ask the question. 

Mr Nkombo: With pleasure, Sir. 

Mr Speaker, those children out there (pointing to the Visitors’ Gallery) …

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: … clamour for sitting space in classrooms. This is a matter that has been bothering our country for a very long time. In your projection, hon. Minister, when do you think that you will meet the demand for desks in our schools? 

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, we have had no petition from any pupil out there …

Laughter 

Dr Phiri: … and I hope that those in here will not petition us for desks either. 

Mr Speaker, the procurement and distribution of desks is an on-going process. As hon. Members may know, each year, we are constructing new schools and other institutions which demand desks. I also want to assure this august House that as we make efforts at equipping all institutions with desks, we will be mindful that we have an additional responsibility to have this done as quickly as possible. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the making of desks will be decentralised because transporting desks from Lusaka to Kaputa will definitely result in damages.  

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, with the devolution of power and decentralisation that this Government is seriously embarking on, that is the way forward. Procuring and distributing desks from Lusaka, obviously, has its own limitations. We look forward to the day when desks can be procured and also distributed at district level.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, what is the difficulty in ensuring that the existing schools get enough supplies of desks?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the difficulty is simply the availability of funds to meet the demand for desks nationally.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

_______

BILLS

FIRST READING

The following Bills were read the first time:

The Excess Expenditure Appropriation Bill, 2010

The Supplementary Appropriation Bill, 2011

Second Readings, on Friday, 12th July, 2013.

________{mospagebreak}

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE, HUMAN RIGHTS, GENDER MATTERS AND CHILD AFFAIRS

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs for the Second Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 24th June, 2013.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, this session, your Committee studied the operations of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) and the administration of the Legal Practitioners’ Qualifying Examination. Your Committee was prompted to consider this topic against the background of several reports in the media and in the legal arches to the effect that the pass rate at ZIALE had been going down in successive years.

Sir, in order to get an insight into the topic under study, your Committee interacted with several stakeholders. Your Committee also conducted public hearings in Ndola, Kitwe, Livingstone and Lusaka.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was also privileged to undertake a foreign study tour to Uganda to compare post graduate legal training in that jurisdiction to the Zambian scenario. The findings of your Committee are well-articulated in your Committee’s report. It is my hope that the hon. Members of Parliament have had time to read through your Committee’s report, as I will only highlight a few salient matters.

Sir, to begin with, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the standards of university education, in general, in this country have deteriorated tremendously. None of our universities are ranked amongst the best in Africa. As a matter of fact, not even our once-upon-a-time prestigious University of Zambia (UNZA) is ranked among the top 100 universities on the continent of Africa. This is a very sad state of affairs, and is the root cause of the generallt poor quality of graduates in all fields, including law, which is my area of interest today.

Mr Speaker, this unfortunate position is compounded by the liberalisation of university education which has seen the mushrooming of universities all over the country. Your Committee appreciates the need for university education in the country, but is concerned about the lack of supervision of all universities …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: I think we are consulting loudly. Can we consult quietly so that the person on the Floor can be heard.

You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: … by the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. It is not unusual in this country to find a university operating in the backyard of some residential house or renting two rooms in some dilapidated building in town. Further, the qualifications of the lecturers at some of the universities are highly doubtful. Your Committee learnt, during its deliberations, that some lecturers in private universities only possess first degrees, contrary to the acceptable universal standards of a minimum qualification of a Master’s Degree.

Mr Speaker, your Committee calls upon the Government, through the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, to enhance its supervisory role over all universities. Citizens are paying a lot of money in fees and tuition and they deserve nothing less than quality education which they can put to use after they graduate.

Sir, coming to the bone of contention, your Committee found that the pass rate at ZIALE has been deteriorating progressively from about 2008 to date. This has been attributed to two main reasons.

Firstly, there is an increase in the number of students enrolling at ZIALE, following the proliferation of law schools in private universities. Currently, ZIALE enrols between 150 to 200 students who have to be taught by a single lecturer in each subject. In addition, these students are expected to finance their studies, look for their own accommodation to rent and find a place of attachment for their training.

Secondly, there is a generally poor quality of graduates coming from some private universities, as already highlighted above, who are failing to adapt to ZIALE conditions.

Mr Speaker, your Committee had an opportunity to look at some statistics of the ZIALE results from the time the institution started enrolling students from private universities. The statistics show clearly that students from UNZA perform much better than their colleagues from private universities. The main reason for this is that, at UNZA, there is no direct enrolment into law school based on one’s Grade 12 results. Firstly, one has to successfully complete one year in the School of Humanities before competing for admittance into the School of Law. In other jurisdictions like the United States of America, a first degree in another field is a prerequisite to apply for a place in the school of law.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, therefore, appeals to private universities in this country offering the law degree to consider introducing stringent measures in their selection process for aspiring law students. Otherwise, they risk their students repeatedly failing at ZIALE which may ultimately lead to a general loss of confidence in these universities.

Mr Speaker, with regard to sponsorship of students to ZIALE, your Committee urges the Government to consider offering loans to the students which can be paid back after successful completion of the Bar course. This will go a long way in assisting underprivileged students, particularly those who were on Government bursary at undergraduate level. Students are not concentrating fully on their studies because they spend considerable time looking for funds to sponsor themselves. A loan scheme, therefore, will assist in remedying this worrying situation.

Mr Speaker, as I conclude my speech, I wish to draw the attention of the House to pages 11 to 14 of the report where your Committee’s interaction with the Law Development Centre (LDC) of Uganda, which is the equivalent of ZIALE, is highlighted. Your Committee could not have chosen a better destination than Uganda because the current problems or challenges that ZIALE is faced with are exactly the same as what the LDC went through recently. It was interesting to learn that, in the past, only Makerere University used to offer the law degree at undergraduate level as well as send students to the LDC for admission. 

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised. However, I understand it is un-procedural to raise a point of order when somebody is moving a Motion. So, that point of order cannot be sustained.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the difficulty I have is that what will happen is …

Mr Deputy Speaker: No, you cannot overrule the Chair.

The mover of the Motion may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, after the liberalisation of university education in Uganda, a number of private universities started offering law degree courses, leading to increased numbers of students at the LDC. The increase in the number of students put pressure on the facilities and lectures at the institution to the extent that the centre started recording poor results. This is exactly what is obtaining at ZIALE.

Mr Speaker, to remedy this situation, the LDC put in place drastic measures, as highlighted in your Committee’s report. Some of the measures included the introduction of pre-entry examinations for those seeking admission, dividing students into smaller contact groups, revision of the Bar course by identifying core courses in which students are continuously assessed and training of lecturers in teaching methodologies to equip them with the necessary skills required to impart knowledge to the students.

Sir, I can confirm that after the LDC put these measures in place, results began to improve and, as a matter of fact, the Ugandan Law Society, which is the equivalent of the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), is happy with the quality of lawyers that are now being trained by the LDC.

Mr Speaker, I wish to appeal to ZIALE, through the Ministry of Justice, to consider putting in place some of these measures I have just highlighted. They have worked in Uganda and they can surely work here. I also wish to emphasise the need to introduce pre-entry examinations for admission to ZIALE, which will operate as a sieve in the selection process of students to be enrolled at the institute. Your Committee also urges ZIALE to put its house in order with regard to the Accreditation Committee established under the …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

You are disturbing the person on the Floor. 

Mr Mwiimbu: … Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education Act so that this body can start performing its functions as provided for in the Act.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of all the hon. Members of your Committee and, indeed, my own behalf, I wish to thank you for your guidance and counsel rendered throughout this session. I also wish to thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the professional advice given to your Committee during its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Kapyanga: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to second the Motion on the Floor moved by the Chairperson of your Committee. In doing so, I, firstly, want to comment on some of the student rules that govern examinations at ZIALE.

Sir, according to rule 23 (4) of the student rules, a student who fails one out of two subjects is required to rewrite both subjects at the next sitting. In other words, if a student has remained with two subjects to pass before admission to the Bar, and such a student happens to fail one of the two subjects, he/she will be required to rewrite both subjects at the next sitting, including the one he/she had earlier passed.

Mr Speaker, it has so happened, on many occasions, that students who find themselves in such a predicament have actually failed the subject which they had earlier passed and have, unfortunately, been sent to the five-year bar, during which time they are not allowed to write any examinations. It is your Committee’s view that these rules are highly retrogressive and punitive in nature. Consequently, your Committee recommends that rule 23 (4) be revised so that subjects passed can be credited to the students.

Mr Speaker, furthermore, your Committee is of the opinion that the five-year bar imposed on students who fail the Bar course three times is unnecessary and unreasonably long. Your Committee is calling for the reduction of the length of the ban. In this regard, your Committee recommends that those who fail these examinations even after going through the continuous assessment process, as is being suggested in your Committee’s report, should be barred for three years after which they would be required to start the whole course afresh.

Mr Speaker, in making the foregoing recommendation, your Committee remains mindful of the fact that the legal profession is one in which there cannot be any compromise in quality because of the confidence that clients entrust in their lawyers.

Mr Speaker, your Committee is of the view that, within the legal profession, there is another group that has been treated unfairly by ZIALE. These are the magistrates who are also subjected to the same training as advocates even though they practise on the Bench and not the Bar. In this regard, your Committee recommends to the Government to consider separate or different training for magistrates tailored to suit their role in the dispensation of justice. Those who would later wish to join the Bar should enrol at ZIALE for the appropriate training.

Mr Speaker, when your Committee visited Uganda, it learnt that there are a number of stakeholders that are involved in the running of the LDC, both directly and indirectly. For instance, with regard to the content of the curriculum, small committees comprising Judges and senior lawyers have an input in the material to be taught to the students, and the legal profession, through the Uganda Law Society take a keen interest in the operations at the LDC with a view to suggesting ways and means of improving the teaching environment of the institution.

Mr Speaker, your Committee urges ZIALE to have an open-door policy of allowing eminent legal minds such as retired and sitting Judges, State Counsels, senior lawyers and, indeed, LAZ to have an input in the operations of ZIALE with a view to improving its current status and public image.

Mr Speaker, I believe that once ZIALE takes this route, the institution will be able to attract more and well-trained lecturers who will be hired in an open and transparent manner unlike the current situation where lecturers are engaged privately on a part-time basis.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you and your administration for the support rendered to your Committee. I would also like to thank the members of your Committee for their dedication to duty.

Sir, with these few words, I beg to second.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to support your Committee’s report. It has raised issues that are pertinent, particularly to lawyers and ZIALE. 

Mr Speaker, I want to concentrate on the issue of governance. This is a Committee on governance. Therefore, while it may have concentrated on one item, I want to raise the issue of governance.

Mr Speaker, we have been trying very hard and have been at pains to translate the Public Order Act regarding hon. Members of Parliament’s performance of their duties in their constituencies.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: Before I call upon the hon. Member for Kalomo Central to resume his debate, may I take this opportunity to guide the House that we have all gone through the report and know what is in it and what is not. Therefore, in debating, let us make sure that we confine ourselves to what is in the report. If you veer away from the report, I will not hesitate to remind you that you have gone outside the report.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, your Committee’s report is restricted to one item, and yet this Committee considers governance and human rights. As an hon. Member of Parliament, I need to raise this issue so that your Committee knows and, perhaps, in future, may consider these issues in its report.

The Deputy Chairperson: The guidance has been given. Do not modify it. 

You may proceed.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, in your Committee’s report, there is consideration of the Action-Taken Report on page 29 on the pending issues in governance. I believe that the Speaker is aware that on this page, issues of governance were also mentioned in this report. It is my wish that the Action-Taken Report and governance issues are addressed. 

Mr Muntanga paused and looked at the Deputy Chairperson.

Mr Muntanga: I want us to be on the same page and see whether I will be allowed to talk about governance issues.

The Deputy Chairperson: By way of further guidance, …

Mr Muntanga remained standing.

The Deputy Chairperson: … hon. Member, take your seat. On page 29, the report considered the Action-Taken Report on the Committee for the First Session of the Tenth National Assembly. If you look at that and continue to the next page, you will see what was covered in that report. I hope that will adequately guide you as you venture to make your contribution.

You may proceed.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the next page is in answer to the issues raised in the report of the Human Rights Commission (HRC). One of the issues on human rights involves the freedom of hon. Members and the rights we are supposed to enjoy. Therefore, I think that I will be in order to talk about human rights. Human rights, as Part III of the Constitution (11) Fundamental Rights and Freedoms of Citizens says, each and all the following rights will apply:

(a)life, liberty, security of the person and the protection of the law;
(b)freedom of conscience, expression, assembly, movement and association; and so on and so forth.

 This matter was dealt with, but not in totality, and there are other matters still outstanding. I think I will be doing justice as, a Member of Parliament, to say that these fundamental rights are being ignored or abused. In this case, I will proceed to state that when we talk about the freedom of movement and assembly, hon. Members of Parliament, whose job is to go and explain various details of what happens in Parliament …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Just take your seat. I have read this report so many times and the page you referred to specifically relates to the prisons. You may not be doing yourself justice by overstretching what is there. Therefore, I urge you to move on to the other point, and I know that you have many points to debate. 

You may proceed.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, why is it that the people that go to ZIALE and had passed a subject earlier, end up failing? What is the problem at ZIALE? Is it fair that people that have studied law for four years, and fail a subject at ZIALE are not allowed to re-sit it until after five years? Is it appropriate that people do not re-sit and ensure that they pass? I think that the report of your Committee is so specific on what should be done. 

Mr Speaker, I know that there are several notes to you meant to curtail the debate. This means that even us, here, are being curtailed …

Mr Nkombo: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: … with notes coming from the Clerks-at-the-Table. They are telling you what to do. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I feel that I have no freedom anymore …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May you withdraw that statement because my duty is to ensure that I maintain order.
 
Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the fact that there are notes, although I do not know what is contained in them. Therefore, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, you are a very senior hon. Member. Just take your seat. We have a duty to guide each other.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It is customary here for Hon. Muntanga to send a note to somebody and so on and so forth. There is also nothing out of this world for a Clerk-at-the-Table to send a note to the Presiding Officer. There is nothing at all. Perhaps, what is wrong is what is in your imagination. I think that we should behave honourably here. I do not think that I have any note from the Clerk which tells me what to do and, in any case, I hope I have a very independent mind in case others do not know that. 

You may continue with your debate.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I will proceed.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Proceed. You have the Floor.
    
Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, it is important that we follow what is stated in the report of your Committee. This particular problem concerns the law. It makes sad reading to note that various private universities have been identified as not producing people that are properly qualified. I want to appeal to the ministry involved to, perhaps, check the syllabi of these universities to ensure that they are at the same level as UNZA. We understand that there are certain basic requirements for a university to operate. However, we are beginning to get to a level …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. This afternoon, we go back to our constituencies that we represent in order to explain various issues, including the PF policy on subsidies as per instruction of the Head of State. He said that we should all go to the countryside and explain the advantages and disadvantages of the subsidies, regardless of which side of the divide we are.

Mr Speaker, ever since we sat in this meeting, we have been grappling with the issue of the Public Order Act (POA). We have had presentations from the hon. Minster of Home Affairs on his translation of the POA vis-à-vis hon. Members of Parliament performing their duties in their constituencies. This morning, the hon. Member for Kalomo Central, seated right next to me, …

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Nkombo: … asked His Honour the Vice-President a specific question, which was that he should say what he makes out of hon. Members of Parliament performing their duties in their constituencies. The answer by His Honour the Vice-President was that on Wednesday, 10th July, this year there shall be a meeting that will discuss this matter, and the meeting will involve Whips, and I am privileged to be one of the Whips. Consequently, the hon. Member of Parliament for Keembe, today, asked His Honour the Vice-President whether he needed to go to the police to get a permit in order to exercise his duty in Keembe since he is going there today, like I am going back to Mazabuka. 

I have been authorised to raise this point of order without malice. I have a note that came from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, and Hon. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha gave it to me. It says: 

“Hon. M. P Shikapwasha, you can proceed with your meeting. Just inform the police there. Do you have any difficulties just telling them? If you have any difficulties, you may consider calling me. 

Yours, 

Edgar Lungu.”

Mr Speaker, some of us have difficulties calling the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, considering that many attempts that we have made to continue with our discourse have landed us in …

Mr Muntanga: Prison.

Mr Nkombo: … police cells and prison. 

Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, therefore, in order to seem to be the custodian of our fundamental inherent rights and freedoms of assembly and movement in the constituencies that we represent? Those of us who have paranoia, and I am using the word correctly, to ring the hon. Minister, lest we are thrown into jail, cannot perform. 

Is he in order to seem to be the custodian of these rights for us to perform our duties in our constituencies? 

I seek your ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

I think we should get issues clearly. I am not here attempting to interpret the Constitution or any law for that matter, but suffice it to say that each and every hon. Member of Parliament, here, enjoys freedom of movement. So, for you to enjoy that freedom of movement, I do not think you need that requirement. You need to fulfill the requirement of informing the police that you want to enjoy the freedom of movement.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: However, all I want to say is that with regard to the issues of public order, a decision has been taken that on 10th July, 2013, this issue must be settled once and for all, as we realise that certain interpretations may have the tendency of affecting the privileges which hon. Members of Parliament enjoy as and when they discharge their responsibilities in their constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: For that reason, it has been found prudent that on 10th July, 2013, a meeting be held, here a Parliament, involving the Whips, the Office of the Vice-President and the two hon. Ministers responsible for the ministries of Justice and Home Affairs, together with the presiding officers so that this issue can be clarified once and for all. After that, a statement will be issued here by the appropriate hon. Minister. 

It is an issue that has been raising concern and the earlier it is buried, the better. It is for this reason that we made a ruling earlier for His Honour the Vice-President not to answer the question on public order and the requirement for hon. Members of Parliament to get authority or a permit. So, the meeting has been called because we want to bury this issue once and for all. The interpretations are varied, depending on which side of the Speaker you are. It is for this reason that we want this matter to be settled once and for all. I hope we will not waste more time on this matter. This issue will be settled on 10th July, 2013. It is for the benefit of all of us here.

May, the hon. Member for Kalomo Central continue, please.  

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I was saying that the universities that produce ill-qualified or low-level lawyers should be properly advised. It is the job of the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education to take note of what is stated in this report so that people do not lose hope and trust in the universities.

Sir, I stand to fully support the report as delivered by the able Chairperson and his deputy who seconded it very well.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to debate on the Motion on the Floor. I would like to mention, right from the beginning, that I am in full support of your Committee’s Report on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs. 

Mr Speaker, I will confine myself to the issues that the Chairperson raised in his submission, in particular, issues regarding the deteriorating standards of our universities and the graduates that come out of these institutions.

Sir, the Chairperson quite rightly referred to the low standards, the mushrooming of universities in the private sector, the low calibre of the teaching staff and the unregulated curricula or content that is offered to students in these institutions. Of course, he was very interested in law as a subject that is taught in these institutions.

Mr Speaker, I am particularly interested in this subject matter, more so that the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education is in attendance today.

Sir, I agree with the Chairperson of your Committee that the standards of our graduates and, indeed, even the institutions are worrisome. In my opinion, the reason is that in the last few years, what has been happening in the higher education sector has been what I will describe as a free-for-all kind of situation. It only takes one or two people to come together and make a decision that they want to start an institution of higher learning. In fact, if I wanted, I would ask Dr Phiri, Professor Lungwangwa and myself to register a university. We can then begin recruiting students, charge them fees and begin to make a quick buck. I think that is not the way things are supposed to be. This is what has led to the situation that the Chairperson described.

Mr Speaker, I think the House also needs to take note of the fact that we recently passed the Higher Education Authority Bill which is intended at addressing this very unfortunate situation. However, we are already at this stage and I think that even though the Bill has been passed, certainly, I am one of those who cannot wait for this Act to be operationalised. I do not know what form it will take. Whether it will be by way of a Statutory Instrument or whatever method, I think that this needs to be done as soon as possible to address the situation.

Sir, I am privileged, as Chairperson of your Committee on Education, Science and Technology, to have visited a lot of these institutions. It is not uncommon to find that among the teaching staff, you really have to struggle to find lecturers with Master’s Degrees in some of them,. Of course, some of them have made major strides such as the Zambia Open University. In fact, in one of the years, the best student at ZIALE came from the Zambia Open University which is a private university. So, it is not entirely true to state that only students from UNZA are producing good results at ZIALE. Overall, I certainly agree with the Chairperson that the standards have gone down.

Mr Speaker, I would like to mention to the Executive, particularly to the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education that these universities have mushroomed because our registration process has not been stringent. In view of this, I would like to appeal to the Government to make it more stringent, especially the governance of the institutions. Some of these institutions are owned practically by an individual. I think that is not the way an institution such as the university should be owned. It should inspire some form of existence in perpetuity. In other words, if the owner dies or something happens to him/her, then the institution crumbles. 

 Mr Speaker, no particular person should own more than 25 per cent of a particular institution in order to broaden the ownership and guarantee continued existence of the institution, make sure that it was not a get-rich-quick arrangement and that the institution has a vision of supplementing the Government’s efforts in the provision of higher education.

Mr Speaker, some countries such as Zimbabwe are very particular about this and I think there is only one truly private institution there. Most of them are church-based universities because, that way, there is comfort and, obviously, some element of trust that the faith-based universities are doing what they are supposed to do as opposed to individuals, although individuals certainly play a complementary role as well.

Mr Speaker, secondly, some of the private universities have placed commercialism at the fore of their activities rather than trying to place quality in churning out graduates. Law is one of the most popular subjects. Practically, every other university now wants to introduce a law degree programme because of the demand that is going on amongst our children that want to become lawyers like Hon. Jack Mwiimbu and we should not deny them that opportunity.

However, we should insist on lawyers of the right standard being produced and it should not be all and sundry just because there is a place at a university and they can talk to Hon. Jack Mwiimbu to come and lecture them and, therefore, it becomes a school of law. I do not think that is the way it should be. It should go beyond that.

The Deputy Chairperson: As you debate, please, do not bring Hon. Jack Mwiimbu unnecessarily into the debate.

Laughter

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance. I will be very brief. In fact, I am about to wind up.

Mr Speaker, the Higher Education Authority, which is intended at addressing some of these ills, needs to go beyond registering and inspections. It also needs to regulate the curriculum and content of what is taught to our students. It is not automatic that because there is a university that can offer a law degree programme then it can operate. Somebody must approve that it can actually offer a quality programme. As it is now, anyone who wants to offer a law degree programme can do so and the result is what we are seeing now.

Mr Speaker, thirdly, the calibre of the teaching staff is partly responsible for what we are seeing because there is no one to check or insist on what kind of standards we want to see. We hope the Higher Education Authority will be able to do that in insisting that to teach in a university, one must have a minimum qualification, in my view, beyond a Master’s Degree. I think a university should have one or two professors to be able to assure confidence. If they cannot have a professor then, at least, there should be someone with a Doctor of Philosophy (PhD). There should be holders of PhDs in a university, but what is happening now is not the case. 

Sir, there are a lot of private universities that do not have a single PhD holder. I do not know the calibre of lecturers teaching some of our students to enable them to reach the level that we want them to reach. The result, when they finally move on to ZIALE, is what the Chairperson described.

Mr Speaker, having said that, in a liberal environment such as ours, we appreciate the importance of the private sector in providing education, but I think that it is necessary to make the registration process stringent, check and approve the curriculum and also ensure that there is the right teaching staff in the institutions.

Mr Speaker, my contribution was based mainly on the issue of the kind of graduates that we are producing, including how we enrol the students. At the moment, as I have said, since the emphasis of some of the institutions seems to be money, anybody who can afford the fees is enrolled, but this should not be the case. If you take a survey, you will find that half of such students are not able to proceed to the next stage of learning.

Sir, this is my contribution to the debate on the report of your Committee and I would like to say that I support it fully.

I thank you, Sir {mospagebreak}

Professor Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me an opportunity to make comments on this report which I support very strongly.

Mr Speaker, your report has brought out a number of issues which affect the training of the legal profession in our country. Your report highlights the fact that we are now a nation at risk. Zambia is a nation at risk because of what is happening in the education sector.

Mr Speaker, in the 1980s, when the Americans realised that there were problems in their education sector, the American Government put together a commission of inquiry which eventually came up with a report entitled A Nation at Risk. It was a very interesting report which some of us read way back in the 1980s. This is exactly where we are, as a nation, judging from what your report is saying. 

Mr Speaker, we are a nation at risk just like the book written by a very famous educationalist way back in the 1970s, namely The Diploma Disease. We have problems of the diploma disease. This was the title of Dr. Ronald Downs’s book written in the 1970s. 

Mr Speaker, the diploma disease is a condition where credentialism grips the nation. Individuals are fighting for credentials and they will go to any extent to get glittering arrays of certificates which will probably boost their ego. They will go to any extent to get those certificates even if it means going to third or fourth-class institutions. 

Sir, there are a number of institutions, and this is pointed out in the report, which are offering so-called university level training. These institutions are not fit to be called universities, judging from the criteria of what a university ought to be. Many of our children, brothers and sisters are going to these institutions which, to a large extent, are miseducating them. They are moving around with qualifications that do not bear the content of what those qualifications ought to have and this is disastrous for the nation. 

Sir, what your report is saying is that urgent measures must be taken to address the problem. The hon. Member for Lukulu East has indicated that the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, working with the Higher Education Authority, should expeditiously address this problem so that the standards in those private institutions are addressed and those which do not meet the standards are closed immediately to save the nation because we are headed for a human resource disaster. 

Mr Speaker, what your report is indicating is that ZIALE has, indeed, played its role, the role of sifting quality from those that are admitted into the institution. There are problems in terms of standards in the universities. The universities do not have common standards in terms of admissibility, curriculum and, eventually, examinations and the qualifications granted. Given that kind of situation, especially the problem between the public and private universities, ZIALE is playing the role of the gatekeeper. Every profession ought to have a mechanism or a system of gatekeeper. By this, I mean gatekeepers in terms of those who are entering the profession. In the gatekeeping system, you look at admissibility to the profession in terms of the minimum standards that ought to be attained by those who eventually get admitted into the profession. Again, gatekeeping entails looking at the ethics and behaviour of those that are admitted into the profession, including rules and regulations that ought to be followed. 

Sir, I can see the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, Hon. Sichinga and my colleague, Hon. Mutati, are accountants. In their accountancy profession, they have to demonstrate, every year, that they have achieved some level of professional enhancement. They have continuous professional upgrading every year. That is part of gatekeeping. Of course, in some professions, once you have entered the gates, they are locked and you are assumed to be at the level of professional proficiency every year that comes. That is not acceptable. 

Mr Speaker, according to your report, ZIALE is playing the role of gatekeeper and it is indicating to us, as a nation, that there is something wrong in the way that those who get admitted into ZIALE were trained. In this case, the quality of the training that those who enter ZIALE have had from the institutions they come from is questionable and that is something that has to be addressed. Your report is also indicating that the quality, even in public universities and institutions that were once known to be of very high standards has gone down. Indeed, that is something we should pay very serious attention to. UNZA, as we all know, was an institution that was internationally accepted and recognised.  You could get your …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Phiri interjected.

Mr Nkombo: You do not read and that is where the problem is.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, before I could talk, running commentaries were already audible. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Make your point of order. You have all the opportunity to do so.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, it is a procedural point of order. Yesterday, your Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology, on the last part of page 15, said: 

“Currently, only UNZA appears among the top 100 universities in Africa.”

Sir, today, your Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs, on page 14, says: 

“The standard of university education in Zambia has drastically fallen over the years to the extent that none of Zambia’s public universities are ranked in the top 100 universities in Africa.”

Sir, that is why I am standing here so that I am well guided by your report and Zambians are given the right information in turn.

Hon. UPND Members: He reads!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I seek your guidance. Which is which? Is UNZA amongst the top 100 universities in Africa or not, hence the problems we have? People should be educated the right way so that even those who are in rural places, the poor, get the right education.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, is it in order for your two reports to contradict each other?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

At an appropriate time and for the benefit of the House, the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education will be called upon to clarify the rankings. 

May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, your report indicates that standards in public universities have equally gone down. That, indeed, could be the case, especially given the fact that there has been a lot of brain drain from our public universities. Just to give an example in terms of the brain drain, in the House, today, we have Dr Mwali, Dr Simbyakula, Dr Lungu, Dr Phiri, Professor Luo, Dr Chikusu and Dr Kazonga. These were academicians at UNZA and they are with us today in the House. I am sure if we go to other institutions, we may find a similar situation whereby academicians from a public university like UNZA have left the institution and are now in those institutions. I think that is an indication of how things are in our public universities. Therefore, there is a need to rethink what should be done. 

Mr Speaker, imagine, if these senior academicians who are with us today were at UNZA in their various departments, they would be a great inspiration to the young academicians. That could go a long way in terms of enhancing the quality of education and the training in our institutions.

Sir, this problem, that your report highlights, must be given very serious attention. With regard to the recommendation of your report, ZIALE must continue to indicate to us the state of training and education in our universities. This is because what is happening at ZIALE is an indication to us of the quality assurance problem in our public and private universities. 

Mr Speaker, you cannot offer a law degree programme in a university that does not have a library that has the required textbooks and journals. I remember, when some of us where at UNZA as undergraduates, we used to see our colleagues struggling to carry heavy volumes which they borrowed from the library. Some of the volumes could not even be borrowed from the library because they were for referencing. 

Sir, I used to see a student by the name of Chifumu Banda …

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: … at UNZA, spending hours …

The Deputy Chairperson: I hope you are not referring to the Chair, but proceed.

Laughter 

Professor Lungwangwa: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker, I used to see a student by the name of Mr Simbyakula, who was a young fellow, carrying heavy volumes. I would smile when I saw him walking with heavy volumes going into the library. I used to see a young student at the time I was a lecturer then by the name of Edgar Lungu carrying heavy volumes going to the library.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I used to see a young lady by the name of Doris Mwiinga carrying heavy volumes on campus.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Sir, this is just to illustrate the fact that you cannot offer a law degree if you do not have the appropriate infrastructure in terms of a library. What is happening in our private universities in particular is unacceptable. Every effort must be made to close such institutions so that the nation is saved from further destruction. This is the way to go. I think that is what is coming out of your report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to support the Motion on the Floor of this House.

Sir, your report raises a lot of concerns that have been highlighted. The majority of the issues relate to the Report on Education, Science and Technology that was presented to this House.

Mr Speaker, the starting point for ZIALE should be to define what kind of a lawyer we need. When we know the product that we want to deliver to the people of Zambia, then we can begin to look at what we need to do in order to produce that particular product. On page 9 of your report, I have read that your Committee interacted with the Ugandans who raised a lot of issues to do with their LDC. In their report, they have talked about issues to do with internal reforms. I think that should, perhaps, be the starting point for ZIALE. It should take internal reforms seriously. A process of business re-engineering is needed.
 
Sir, I would suggest that they should actually engage an external consultant to ensure that the process is above board in order to bring about objectivity. The reforms that are done by internal people are not objective most of the times. If you brought in fresh minds, you would get an insight into the problem that would help reform ZIALE.

Mr Speaker, your Committee got information from their Ugandan colleagues as regards the involvement of the Uganda Law Society on the board of the Law Development Centre. On that particular front, I also want to say that this may have its own disadvantages where you have to bring in these law agencies to report to Parliament. This is because, at the end of the day, if we have to get involved in the issues that are being handled elsewhere, we may depart from our core business. It is important that we tread carefully and not involve this Parliament in issues of administration.

Sir, the problem of universities gives a general reflection of the state of education in this country. Unless we attend to it, it will be very difficult to change this perception. Yesterday, we looked at the report which clearly stated that the libraries of this country or UNZA have outdated books. That is a reflection on issues of governance too. What are those people that are charged with the responsibility of taking care of this particular department doing?

Mr Livune: The PF.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, there is a lack of ownership because the person charged with that particular responsibility does nothing about the books that are deteriorating or getting out of date. So, unless we address those core issues, the education sector will continue having problems. We can have as good lecturers as possible with Master’s Degrees and other kinds of qualifications but, for as long as the infrastructure, library and remuneration issues are not addressed, we will continue struggling with the kind of education that we have.

Sir, on the issue of research, this country has not taken it very seriously. Investment in research is generally poor or non-existent in Zambia. We need to invest in research if we have to come up with something that will bring development in the future for the benefit of the Zambian people.
 
Mr Speaker, according to your report, students spend about nine months at ZIALE and the period is too short for them to finish what they learn from this particular institution. In the global world, we have Information Communication Technologies (ICT). If we fully exploited it, even the nine months would be too long a period for one to study at ZIALE. ICT can actually sort out a lot of issues, including the issue of space in various learning institutions. This is because with ICT, students can learn without necessarily having to sit in a classroom. All we have to do is simply sort out the internet connectivity and everything that goes with ICT. In as much as we would like to extend the period of study, we should consider making the best of ICT. 

Mr Speaker, emphasis has been laid on Master’s Degree as minimum qualification for lecturers. This idea is very good and progressive. However, it must be noted that in a developing country like ours, it is important to allow for exceptions since teaching is generally an art and not a science. 

There are skilled people with vast experience who can produce well-baked graduates. I do agree that we should get Master’s Degrees, but we cannot deny the fact that there are people who only have a first degree, but with vast experience because they have been around for a very long time and have delivered qualitatively. This should be food for thought. You may have your say, but we have seen such people and they have delivered to the expectation of a number of colleagues.

Mr Speaker, the report also raises issues to do with marking and preparing of examinations. This is one area which has not been given serious attention. The markers are not properly remunerated. As a result, they fall prey to various vices such as corruption. It is high time we invested in this particular venture. Markers of Grades 7, 9, 12 and tertiary examinations have been given a raw deal for a long time. Let us remunerate markers of examinations at all levels of the education sector well. For this country to have quality graduates, this must be given serious attention and investment.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I would like to talk about the evaluation and assessment of lecturers. Who assesses the lecturers? How is the monitoring of lecturers, including those who are charged with the responsibility of preparing examinations done? Who evaluates and assesses them? How do we know that, indeed, they are developing and acquiring new skills and that they are able to deliver the quality education needed by the students? This is another area where we need to conduct a lot of research in and see how best to monitor the lecturers. It is one thing to have a Master’s Degree and another to impart knowledge to students. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Do we have a mechanism to use when it comes to recommending those that have Master’s Degrees? Are they able to deliver to the students? Have the graduating students got the right information and materials? 

Mr Speaker, this is one area where the hon. Ministers of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education and Justice should put their heads together and see how best lecturers can be evaluated so that they deliver the right information and materials because, at the end of the day, we want a well-trained lawyer, accountant or doctor. 

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I thank you. 

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the Floor to contribute to the debate. 

Sir, as hon. Members undoubtedly know, for many years, there was only one university and one law school in this country. However, with the growth in population, the capacity of UNZA and the School of Law to absorb the growing number of students seeking university education was severely tested. 

The private sector must be commended for rising to the occasion by establishing private universities to complement the Government’s efforts in the provision of university education. The increase in the number of universities in Zambia has also seen an increase in the number of law schools. This is as it should be, Sir, because the Government, on its own, has limited capacity to provide university education. 

In as far as legal education is concerned, the role of the Government, in this changed scenario, is to ensure quality assurance. It is the Government’s duty to ensure that law schools adhere to certain prescribed minimum standards so that we avoid producing half-baked law graduates. 

Mr Speaker, it is in light of this development that the Government, in 2009, amended the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education Act to provide for the establishment of the Accreditation Committee. The mandate of this committee is to come up with some criteria which every law school, both public and private, ought to meet in order to be accredited. Some of these criteria include, among other things, a Master’s Degree as minimum qualification for lecturers. In order to teach an undergraduate, one should have a Master’s Degree and nothing less. The size of the library is critical, as Hon. Professor Lungwangwa rightly pointed out. The lecturer: student ratio, curriculum and core courses are equally critical. These are some of the criteria that any law school worth its salt, whether public or private, ought to meet. 

It is intended that only law graduates from accredited law schools will be admitted to ZIALE. Even graduates from public law schools, including UNZA, will be required to be accredited. This assessment will be carried out either annually or every two years. Therefore, it is possible that a law school, whether public or private, may lose its accreditation and deny its graduates admission to ZIALE. 

Mr Speaker, the Government has recognised the many challenges that ZIALE faces. The person speaking on the Floor right now was at one time Director of ZIALE. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, the number of students entering ZIALE has increased to almost unmanageable proportions in the last three years. The infrastructure is now inadequate. The lecture room has now shifted to the hall because the students are now numbering 400 to 500. You can, therefore, imagine what the lecturer: student ratio is? To this end, the ZIALE Council, on which several stakeholders sit, including the LAZ, Attorney-General and Clerk of the National Assembly – in other words, this august House is represented on the ZIALE Council – is actively engaged with this matter, deliberating on various options.

Mr Speaker, as a Government, we are very grateful for the recommendations that have been advanced by your Committee. These will be taken into consideration by the ZIALE Council as it embarks on the process of reforming and transforming ZIALE. Some of the options being actively considered are transforming ZIALE into an examination body so that lectures can be carried out all over Zambia, such that ZIALE only sets examinations.

Sir, other issues relating to whether ZIALE should ratify the Bar are actively being considered. However, I do not wish to go into details. Lastly, but not the least, I wish to look at the question of magistrates. There was a suggestion by some stakeholders, as reported in your report, in paragraph (K) on page 7 that:

“… it did not make sense to subject magistrates to the same training as those wishing to become advocates, as the two performed totally different roles in the dispensing of justice.” 

Sir, I respectfully beg to differ with the suggestion. The optimum scenario is that a magistrate ought to be a lawyer or an advocate. The people arguing in the court of law are lawyers. So, the magistrate must understand the law. Otherwise, he/she will be at a great disadvantage. The lawyers will take advantage of the magistrate.

Hon. Mukata: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, in our manifesto, we said that since there are still some lay magistrates, we intend to upgrade them to full lawyers through in-service training. So, as funds become available, we shall embark on the process of in-service training for lay magistrates, because we want to establish a magistrates’ court in every district in Zambia so that we increase access to justice for all.

Sir, what would be required for magistrates is for the Government to consider establishing a magistrates and Judges’ training school so that after they qualify as advocates, they can go to that school in order to acquire skills of writing judgments and other functions.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the House for overwhelmingly supporting the Motion which I moved. I would also like to pay particular gratitude to the following hon. Members of Parliament who have debated the Motion: Hon. Muntanga, Hon. Dr Kalila, Hon. Professor Lungwangwa, Hon. Bwalya and the Deputy Minister of Justice.

Sir, as I wind up, I also want to take note of the point of order that was raised pertaining to the Report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs regarding UNZA not being amongst the 100 top universities in Africa. I would like to inform the House and the nation that we had various witnesses from universities, including UNZA. For those who want to get more information, may just have to search on the internet through Google and will find that information on UNZA currently not being one of the top 100 universities in Africa. It is a fact. How do you expect UNZA to be among the top 100 if you can have cadres going to beat students there?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank your Committee, which I chaired, for being so supportive and for working diligently to produce this report. I would also like to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly as well as the Office of the Speaker of the National Assembly which facilitates us being members of this particular Committee. I would also like to thank myself …

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: … for having been a very good Chairperson of your Committee. I am informed that I will still be elected if I will be a member of this particular Committee. 

With those few remarks, I would like to thank the House for endorsing your Committee’s report.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications, and Chief Whip (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1211 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 9th July, 2013.