Thursday, 15th December, 2016

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

 

_____

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

MODERN MARKET AND BUS STATION FOR CHAMA DISTRICT

 

55. Mr D. Mumba (Chama North) asked the Minister of Local Government:

 

1. when the construction of a modern market and bus station in Chama District would commence; and

 

1. what had caused the delay in commencing the projects, considering that the projects were approved in 2015.

 

The Minister of Local Government (Mr Mwale): Mr Speaker, the ministry is planning to construct a modern market and bus station in Chama District under the 2017 Annual Work Plan. This, however, is subject to availability of funds. The delay in the commencement of the project was due to the non-availability of funds in 2015.

 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

 

INSTALLATION OF SOLAR-POWERED HAMMER MILLS IN NORTHERN PROVINCE

 

56. Mr Chansa (Chimbamilonga) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

 

1. how many solar-powered hammer mills had been installed in the Northern Province, district by district;

 

1. what had caused the delay in installing the hammer mills in Mpulungu District; and

 

1. when the installation of hammer mills in the following areas, where slabs had already been constructed, would commence:

 

1. Kasakalawe;
2. Iyendwe;
3. Musakanya;
4. Kaizya; and
5. Kalongola.

 

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mrs Mwanakatwe): Mr Speaker, we have installed solar-powered hammer mills in five districts as follows:

 

District                     Installed Milling Machines                  No. of Operational Machines

 

Kasama                    49                                                        47

Mungwi                    16                                                        14

Mbala                       08                                                        03

Mpulungu                 30                                                        04

Luwingu                   01                                                        01       

 

Total                         104                                                      69

Mr Speaker, the Government is on course in installing hammer mills, not only in the Northern Province, but across the country. As such, the issue of delay does not arise. In this regard, as of 3rd November, 2016, Mpulungu has received thirty …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: …milling machines against the total of thirty-one contracted slabs.

 

Mr Speaker, installation of hammer mills at Kasakalawe, Iyendwe, Musakanya, Kaizya and Kalongola will commence as soon as the units are procured.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order.

 

Sir, my point of order is pursuant to Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, that serve to the immunities and privileges of Members of Parliament.

 

Mr Speaker, I have with me yesterday’s edition of the Daily Nation Newspaper and today’s Daily Mail Newspaper, Volume 20, No. 298 that are carrying the same story, which intends to disparage Members of Parliament, including you, Sir, because you are a Member of Parliament as well.

I wish to quote from both papers, starting with the Daily Nation Newspaper. The excerpt is from one of the stories on the front page and it is headlined “Lungu blasts greedy UPND Members of Parliament.” I suppose “Lungu” is referring to His Excellency, President Edgar Lungu.

 

At this stage, I suppose you, Sir, and the other colleagues, the Independent Members of Parliament and those that belong to the Patriotic Front (PF) are excluded, leaving only United Party for National Development (UPND) Members of Parliament. The story goes and I quote:

 

“The near punch-up at Parliament last week was caused by UPND Members of Parliament who rejected a Motion by the PF to begin sitting at 0900 hours unless their K1,500 allowance was doubled to K3,000, President Edgar Lungu has revealed.

 

And PF deputy secretary-general, Mumbi Phiri, has branded the UPND Parliamentarians greedy individuals who were in Parliament for money and not to serve Zambians.”

 

Mr Speaker, allow me to also quote from the Daily Mail Newspaper which is carrying the same story, headlined “UPND, Independent Members of Parliament Conspiracy Flops,” and I quote:

 

“President Lungu yesterday said that some independent Members of Parliament last Friday conspired with the United Party for National Development counterparts in an attempt to force the Government to pay them an extra K1,500 allowance for extended sitting of the House. The President has said his administration will soon fire all civil servants because they are frustrating its programme.”

 

Sir, I have with me an excerpt of the debate that I rendered on this particular Motion. I am sure you are aware, Sir, that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central who is a clear Patriotic Front (PF) misguided himself when he wanted to ask a question instead of debating the Motion. The verbatim is here, where you, Sir, wisely guided him that this was not time for questions, but time for debating the Motion.

 

Mr Speaker, I do not know his intention was, but I do recall that Hon. Ngulube wanted to find out something to do with emoluments, but you stopped him, wisely so. It was only after your guidance that you allowed me to take the Floor.

 

Sir, my debate was long and I will lay it on the Table. After that, you allowed the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to debate before the mover of the Motion, being the Acting Leader of Government Business on that day, Mr Richard wound up the Motion, which ended up in the vote, which was declared. We, on this side, Sir, had been argued as per the manuscript that I have in my hands that our argument for not lifting the Standing Orders was anchored on the issue of thoroughness and fatigue.

 

Mr Speaker, the only area where I, who debated this Motion dealt with issues of something to the semblance of emoluments, I was very clear to the extent that I said that if we do not drop the stated standing orders, we are prepared to work gratis, those were my words. For those who do not understand English, the word ‘gratis’ means free of charge.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Sir, if it was in my olden days, I would have said is His Excellency the President in order, but since I respect him so much, it is difficult for me to say that, but only to say is this House in order to allow His Excellency the President and his Secretary General to cast aspersions on hon. Members of Parliament who are ready to work free of charge by insinuating and wanting to pity those of us in the United Party for National Development (UPND) against society that we would like to work one shift for double pay.

 

Mr Speaker, this is a serious matter to me whose facts I have laid bare. I will know that using your wisdom, a ruling can be passed even now. I need you your ruling, Sir.

 

Mr Nkombo laid the paper on the Table.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Indeed, it is correct that there was a Motion before this House and the Motion was to suspend certain of our Standing Orders in order to allow the House to sit from 0900 hours until conclusion of business. Of course, this Motion was debated for and against. As the hon. Member has pointed out, I recall that the left was opposed and you were one of the principle debaters in that regard. The reasons for the opposition of the Motion were based on the reasons that were advanced and are on the Hansard. Beyond that, there was nothing suggested that was initial pecuniary allowances as it were. Therefore, as far as my office is concerned, I go by the Hansard and the reasons that were advanced.

 

Mr Nkombo indicated assent.

 

Mr Speaker: I must also point out that in the a Constitutional democracy like ours, we should expect that of course,  the House will be subject to comment on the workings of Parliament and to that extent, the press and the public are urged to base their comments and reports on some substratum of facts. So, as far as this House is concerned, other than an attempt by Hon. Ngulube to try and seek clarification on the question of allowances, I directed that those inquiries should be directed to the Clerk of the National Assembly. That is my ruling.

 

Mr Nkombo indicated assent.

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allow me to make a follow up on this important question on behalf of the people of Kaputa.

 

Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether these allocation and installation of the hammer mills in the province will also consider Kaputa, Mporokoso, Nsama, Chilubi and Lupososhi considering that these districts are among the areas where people are paying much more on meal meal than the areas in Kasama or Mbala who are near the milling plants. Would the hon. Minister assure the people of Northern Province that the remaining districts will receive their fair share taking into account what has already been installed in this province.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, I would like to assure the people of Kaputa that they have an allocation of hammer mills and so is the rest of the country, where maize is being grown.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what other advantage these solar milling plants have to the community other than grinding the meal meal.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, firstly, this is a good question because we are looking at mills that are going to be generating 15,000 kW of power and the mills only requires between 4,009 and 5,000 kW. Therefore, I would like to believe that rest of that power can be used to light up those areas.

 

Secondly, this power can irrigate up to 2 ha based on the cultivation that can happen in that area. We want to carry out several things there. For example, we want to come up with fish ponds in the areas where we are installing the solar mills. We also want to provide clean water in the area that these solar mills are being installed. Apart from that, we also want to execute some tarring where local production is happening and people can come to these hammer mills and mills their grain.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to congratulate our Zambia Under-20 players who are doing very fine in South Africa.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Sir, provision of the solar hammer mill plants is a good programme and I know that His Excellency the President attaches great importance to this.

 

Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister indicate the time frame when this exercise will be completed in Luapula Province.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, we should complete this programme by the third quarter of 2017.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke Central): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister avail the House copies of the list of allocations per province and per district?

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, I am very happy to do so and I will do that through your office.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mrs Fundanga (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, I noted that Chilubi is not appearing on the hon. Minister’s list. Therefore, I am wondering if it is not considered as part of the Northern Province. Further, the distribution pattern is worrying because when you look at Kasama, it has got the lion’s share.

 

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, I am just looking at my list here. It is long and I am trying to find Chilubi, but I am sure it is on this list. I am happy to avail the list to the hon. Member for Chilubi.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

_________

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

(Consideration resumed)

 

VOTE 16/01 (Drug Enforcement Commission – Headquarters – K69,998,995).

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Chairperson, I am looking at Programme 4012, Activity 041− Construction and Maintenance of Office Blocks – K707,223 and Activity 198 – Construction of Office Building- DEC Kabwe – K1,600,000. The latter is explained while the former is not. May the hon. Minister shed some light and clarify.

 

The First Chairperson: Can you ask your question again. Are you saying that one activity is explained while the other one is not?

 

Mr Mutelo: Yes, Madam Chairperson. There is an increment from K231,258 to K707,223 for Activity 041− Construction and Maintenance of Office Blocks. The allocation for Activity 198 – Construction of Office Building-DEC Kabwe has also increased from K1,000,000 to K1,600,000. The second activity is explained, but the first one is not.

 

The First Chairperson: Explained how, Hon. Mutelo? What do you mean it is explained?

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson for Programme 4012, Activity 041− Construction and Maintenance of Office Blocks – K707,223, which office blocks are these? It is just left bare like that. Meanwhile, the other activity clearly states that the allocation is for the office building for the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) in Kabwe.

 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Madam Chairperson, yes, there is an allocation of the total amount of K707,223, which is budgeted for continued maintenance and renovations of commission infrastructure. The increase is a result of the projected office maintenance works of the commission infrastructure and completion of the chemical laboratory at the headquarters.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 16/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Votes 16/02 and 16/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 16/04 − (Drug Enforcement Commission – Western Province – K269,686).

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 005 – Transport Management –K13,318. There is a reduction in terms of the allocation for logistics and transport management in the Western Province. Why is this so, considering that the area is sandy and muddy?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, indeed, there is a reduction of K13,318 on this activity. This reduction is due to consolidation of some transport management activities under Vote 16/01, Programme 4020, Activity 015 – Identification and Investigation of Drug Syndicates – K6,823,638.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 16/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTES 16/05 − (Drug Enforcement Commission – Eastern Province – K278,856).

 

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 041− World Anti-drug Day. There was an allocation for this activity in 2016, but in 2017 there is nothing. Does it mean commemoration of this day is no longer on the institution’s calendar?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the activity has been budgeted for under headquarters.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 16/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 16/06 - (Drug Enforcement Commission – Luapula Province – K276,723).

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 013 – Joint Cross-border Operations (JPOC) – Nil. I have noticed that this activity has not been budged for in this Vote and the past ones. Why has this important function not been budgeted for in 2017?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, this activity will be catered for under Programme 4031, Activity 015 – JPCDs Meetings – K202,208.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 16/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 16/07 ordered to stand par to the Estimates.

 

Vote 16/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 16/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 16/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 16/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 36/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 76 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development – K59,412,320).

 

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development (Mr Mawere): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to present to this august House, the ministerial policy statement in support of the 2017 budget estimate for the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to briefly outline the mandate of my ministry and major achievements recorded during the 2014 to 2016 Mid Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF). My ministry is in charge of providing policy direction and leadership for youth, sport and child development in the country. The mission statement of my ministry is, “To Effectively Promote and Manage the Development and Implementation of Youth Empowerment and Sport Programmes in Order to Create Economic Opportunities for the Youth and Attain Excellence in Sport.” My ministry also coordinates and monitors child development programmes in order to ensure an environment where children survive, thrive and reach their full poetical.

 

Madam Chairperson, the approved budget for my ministry in 2016 was K44,831,638 of which K12,106,935 was for personal emoluments and K32,814,703 was for Current Departmental Charges (RDCs). As at 30th September, 2016, K22,614,095 including supplementary funding and grants had been disbursed to the ministry representing 68.91 per cent budget disbursement. In addition, my ministry was allocated K150 million under Vote 21 for the implementation of the action plan for youth empowerment and employment out of which K50 million was released, representing 33.3 per cent budget disbursement.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to enhance youth empowerment and employment opportunities, the Government, through my ministry, has been implementing a number of “Quick Win” projects in 2016 under the action plan for youth empowerment and employment. These include the following:

 

Youth Street Vendors Empowerment Scheme

 

 My ministry, in collaboration with the United Street Vendors Foundation Cooperative Limited and the Zambia Postal Service Corporation (ZAMPOST) is implementing a scheme to empower youth street vendors with start up capital on a loan basis and entrepreneurial skills to build their capacities to sustainably manage and grow their businesses. Currently, the fund is being disbursed in Lusaka, Copperbelt and Central Provinces through Zampost. As of 30th September, 2016, K3,324,264 has been disbursed to 1,356 youth street vendors.

 

Youth Bus Service Empowerment Scheme

 

My ministry in collaboration with the Public Private Drivers Association of Zambia (PPDAZ) and Higer Bus Zambia Limited is implementing a scheme to empower the youth with Higer buses on loan basis. As at 30th September, 2016, Government contributed K22 million towards the purchase of twenty-five Higer buses which have been distributed to youth bus drivers in all the provinces.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

 

Mr Mawere: Graduate Internship Programme

 

My ministry launched the internship programme and is in discussion with stakeholders on modalities on introducing the apprenticeship programme as well.

 

Youth Development Fund

 

The programmes aimed at empowering the youth with affordable startup capital on a loan basis so as to support youth enterprise development. In 2016, Madam Chairperson, K8,798,658.28 was disbursed to 322 youth enterprises in five provinces. These include Eastern, Luapula, Muchinga, Northern and Western provinces.

 

Youth Resettlement Scheme

 

Madam Chairperson, is aimed at providing land to the youth that want to venture into agriculture and agri-business. The programme is based on a multi-sectoral and integrated development approach. Under this programme land is being given free of charge to the youth settlers who are also supported with appropriate start-up kits to facilitate their economic empowerment. Currently, Madam Chairperson, the project is being implemented at the former Mwange Refugee Camp in Mporokoso District of Northern Province, where a total 235 from all parts of the country have been resettled. The scheme has a capacity to settle up to 520 youth settlers with each being entitled to 3 hectares o land.

 

The ministry has also acquired 26,000 hectares of land in Mufumbwe and Kasempa districts in North-Western Province for the development of a youth resettlement scheme. The plan of Government is at least one integrated development youth resettlement scheme in each province.

 

Madam Chairperson, education and skills development is another important aspect of youth empowerment and employment. The objective of skills training is to impact vocational and life skills to the youths in order to enable them use such skills to engage in economic activities for their improved and sustainable livelihoods. In order to increase access to vocational and skills training, Government through my ministry has been in the process of constructing modern resettlement youth resource centres and upgrading of existing youth resource centres. It is Government’s policy, Madam Chairperson, to establish one modern youth resource centre in each district.

 

Sport and physical activity are vital for enhancing the well being and productivity of our citizens. In this regard, the ministry in 2015 launched the Community Sports Programme. The objective of the programme is to encourage mass citizen participation in sport and physical activity of their choice, thereby contributing to the reduction in accidents of non communicable diseases which are a drain on the national treasury. The programme will also serve as a vehicle for sport talent identification and development which is key to the development of high performance athletes that are likely to reap medals at regional and international competitions.

 

Madam Chairperson, children development is key to sustainable development of any nation. In this regard, my ministry has developed the 2015 National Child Policy and the National Plan of Action to ensure that the children’s rights survival, development, protection and participation are realised. Furthermore, my ministry in collaboration with other stakeholders is facilitating the development of the Children’s Code Bill in order to harmonise all legislation pertaining to children as well as domesticating international conventions and treaties on children.

 

Madam Chairperson, the problem of streetism in cities, towns along the line of rail and provincial headquarters is of great concern to Government and the nation at large. Therefore, in order to curb the increase of the children living on the streets, my ministry is coordinating the implementation of the rehabilitation and integration of street children programme. This programme will involve removing children from the streets and integrate them with their families and communities. Further, the programme involves identification of parents of street children with a view to empower them so that they are able to take care of their children.

 

Madam Chairperson, as you may be aware, children and youth are a priority on the Government’s development agenda as it was highlighted in the speech by His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu President of the Republic of Zambia, during the Official Opening of the First Session of the Twelfth National Assembly on 13th September, 2016

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mawere: In this regard, Madam Chairperson, my ministry in the 2017-2019 Medium Term Expenditure Framework, will focus on the following:

 

In the area of youth development, focus will be on coordinating the implementation of 2015 National Youth Policy and the Action Plan for Youth Empowerment and Employment. Special emphasis will be on empowering the youth with life-long and entrepreneurship skills including startup capital and establishment of specialised youth resettlement schemes. The objective is to enhance youth participation in economic activities and national development as well as promote their self-sustenance.

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to enhance child survival, development, protection and participation rights, my ministry will continue to coordinate the implementation of the 2015 National Child Policy and the National Plan of Action for Children. In addition, the ministry will strengthen the operations of the National Coordinating Committee for children. The ministry will further continue to coordinate the implementation of the rehabilitation and integration of street children programme. To successfully achieve this, the ministry will work closely with other stakeholders.

 

In addition, Madam Chairperson, Government will embark on the process of establishing modern reading and recreation centres in order to improve the physical, cognitive and development of children. Keeping children busy in recreation activities reduces their idle time thereby preventing them from indulging in vices such as alcohol and substance abuse among others.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, in order to increase and widen the base of highly talented athletes in the country, talent identification through the Podium Performance Programme will be a core programme for the ministry. This will entail building talents pathways to support young people to achieve their full potential and sustain performance and excellence at both regional and international levels.

 

Madam Chairperson, in addition, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development will accelerate the implementation of the Grassroots Sport Programme in order to promote mass citizen participation in sport and physical activities. Further, the ministry will continue to strengthen the capacity of the Olympic Youth Development Centre (OYDC) which is the national centre of excellence for sport. The ministry will also continue to promote Zambia’s participation in local, regional and international competitions.

 

Mr Mweetwa: How?

 

Mr Mawere: Like we are doing in South Africa where we have qualified to the finals.

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia is hosting the 2017 Under 20 Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON). I urge all hon. Members of Parliament to take note of this big event which will take place next year.

 

Mr Mweetwa: We do not want.

 

Mr Mawere: You will need it.

 

Madam Chairperson, the successful hosting of the tournament will enhance Zambia’s chances of hosting major sport tournaments such as the AFCON and the World Cup.

 

Mr Mweetwa: We did not qualify.

 

Mr Mawere: We will.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, adequate and appropriate infrastructure is cardinal to the effect implementation of youth, sports and child development programmes. In this respect, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development will, during the 2017-2019 Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF), prioritise the completion of youth resource centres under construction and development of youth resettlement schemes.

 

Madam Chairperson, in area of sport and physical activity, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development will prioritise construction and rehabilitation of basic sports infrastructure at various community safe spaces in order to facilitate mass citizen participation in sport and physical activities. The ministry will also upgrade and rehabilitate the existing child transit homes and establish reading and recreational centres for our children.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, it is important for this august House to note that children and youth constitute 82 per cent of our population. This is a vital component of national development. They are the present and the future. Therefore, there is urgent need to adequately invest in children and youth in order for the country to realise the demographic dividend.

 

Mr Mweetwa: You just invest in PF Cadres!

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, I urge all hon. Members of Parliament including my brother ...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Who?

 

Mr Mawere: ... to support the 2017 Estimates of Estimates of Expenditure ...

 

Mr Mweetwa: Which brother?

 

Mr Mawere ... for my ministry as this will accelerate the implementation of youth, sports and child development programmes. My brother knows himself.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, first of all, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development for a well presented speech on the ministry’s policy.

 

Madam Chairperson, I believe this ministry should be allocated more funds. It has not been providing the services that are contained in its name and maybe that is why it has not received more funds.

 

Mr Mweetwa: The name?

 

Ms Katuta: Yes! The ministry is called the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development, but I have noticed most of the children are not being developed. We support youth in sports and other activities when they are above sixteen years old, but we are supposed to start developing the children whilst they are still young and in school. We are supposed to encourage tournaments between provinces and schools so that the children can develop, but there is not much that is happening at the moment.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about the youth resource centres which are not found in all places. Chienge does not have a youth resource centre or the youth bus public service which the Government came up with. Some districts, including mine, have been deprived of that. I want the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development to look into that to ensure that all districts are given those buses. There are a lot of youth in Chienge who do not have jobs even though they Grade 12 certification or qualifications in teaching or accounting. The ministry should come and assist.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about the youth resettlement scheme which is in Mporokoso. Mporokoso is a neighbour to Chienge, but I believe the ministry has not done much to promote that resettlement. In his policy statement, the hon. Minister said that this resettlement scheme comprises of youth from all over the country but, to my surprise, not one person from Chienge is there. The hon. Minister has not done much in terms of providing information to these rural areas. It would have been better for such information to be given to neighbouring districts before it reaches other parts of the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, it seems that in Zambia sports only means football. We do not seem to promote netball, volleyball or chess. It seems chess is just for kids from elite families instead of all the children in the Zambia. This ministry exists to develop all children. Games like chess should also be promoted in the rural areas. However, in Chienge all we see are football tournaments. There are never any netball, volleyball or chess tournaments. I remember appealing to the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development comes up with a centre where they will encourage and train youth in areas where there lakes to swim.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have so much to say, but I do not want to take too much time ...

 

Mr Sing’ombe interjected.

 

Laughter

 

Ms Katuta: I support the Budget, but I urge the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development to take the issue of promoting sports in the rural areas and developing our young ones in primary schools seriously.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Chairperson, the youth are the future of the country. Some of us appreciate the presidency of Dr Kenneth Kaunda who developed this country without any segregation. He looked at us as equal future leaders and indeed we are here today representing him.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development is critical. However, the problem is that we keep on shifting it from ministry to ministry. This means that we lack strategic planning. When you have Budget like this, you need to carry out a study of exactly what the country needs. There needs to be a strategic plan for all areas. Who will attend these skills training schools the hon. Minister is talking about? Year in year out we have seen that this money is diverted to political activities. That money is usually carried by hon. Ministers in their briefcases and it is given to the youths for violent activities during elections. The first thing the hon. Minister should do is to have a strategic plan for both the rural and urban parts of this country. Our youths have their personal initiatives. Most of them have got tuntembas which they have established. Tuntembas are the small shops that people own. Our youths have got the business knowhow and what they need is motivation. When we are appropriating money to activities in this House, we just spread it anyhow. It is like a farmer who grows finger millet and broadcasts it carelessly. 

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, people who are civilised laugh at us when we talk about youth empowerment and creation of about one to eight million jobs because we fail to account for that. Let us put politics aside. This is an area where we should nature our children properly. We should not take these political divisions to our children because they will look at us in a different way. We are dividing the future nation. This is a very sober ministry. We need to sit down and plan properly because this ministry affects everyone in this country. It will be very difficult for us to do anything during the time we will have no teeth in our mouths. This is the time for us to create a legacy that we will leave with our future generation.

 

Madam Chairperson, sport is an activity that can bring a lot of income to this nation. The only problem that we have is that we are disorganised. During the time when the Zambia Army was involved in sport activities, they used to pick footballers from all parts of the country.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, the majority of the players came from Ikeleng’i in Mwinilunga. There was no segregation. Today, the selection of players is full of politics. That is why we are not doing very well in football. We have been wasting money on football. I think we need to consult widely. Instead of just sitting in the offices, we should go district to district to find out what people think. That is how proper planning should be done. If that is not done, then we will never achieve anything. If I were a Minister of Youth and Sport, I would leave a legacy by doing something different. The hon. Minister looks youthful and I expect him to perform. It does not look good for a youthful person to fail to manage youth affairs.  May be we should go back and appoint an old person like Professor Luo, since she has brought up children …

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Prof. Luo stood up.

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: Professor Luo, please sit down. I will defend you.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Nkandu Luo is not old.

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: Please, retract that and continue.

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, thank you for the guidance. I meant that this task can be given to a young lady like Professor Luo …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Muchima: …with vast experience in bringing up children.

 

Mr Mubika: She is a Diva!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, we need a stepping stone for us to move forward. We need to be passionate about the youth empowerment because this area affects all of us. We know that tomorrow, we shall be old and we will have to depend on a strong society. This is a cross-cutting ministry. The Ministry of General Education and the Ministry of Higher Education have youths. The ministry should concentrate on the bursaries and loans for the students. This ministry should intervene and find out if these other ministries are looking after the youths properly. Most of the youths are disadvantaged and cannot get these loans or bursaries at their learning institutions. I therefore, urge the hon. Minister to go and discuss with the President about these issues. This ministry is a very crucial one in terms of sport and entrepreneurship. All these activities can benefit the future. We should have a framework in which we should operate on. It is not just the matter of appropriating money here and there. This is a ministry that draws the attention of every meaningful Zambian.

 

Madam Chairperson, we also have skills training schools. We have been talking about skills training schools on the Floor of this House. For example, in Rufunsa, there was an institution which was built but up to now, it has not been commissioned. We have been told several times that this will be replicated in other provinces. I am waiting to see one being built in Ikeleng’i. We found the land that we were told to look for but nothing is happening up to now.

 

Madam Chairperson, I recall somebody saying that we do not need a lot of professors for us to develop. We need artisans who are able to make furniture. These people need motivation in team of funds. We need to have a plan on how we can motivate these people. These people are already there and can be identified.

 

Madam Chairperson, we can carry out this exercise at Soweto Market and we will be able to identify the youths that can be involved in skills training activities. We can also involve the cadres who are all over to participate in these skills training activities. I do not understand why we leave these youths behind and only think about them when it is time for campaigns. Most of the times, we use them as a tool for violence. That must be stopped because we are killing our future. We are creating a battalion of violence in this society.

 

Madam Chairperson, this ministry needs a lot of money. We should engage experts from countries that have succeeded. We do not need to bring in the Chinese to come and mould blocks or cook in this country. Why are we throwing away the youths that have dropped in Grade 7 and Grade 12? Education has become so expensive in this country. Most of the youths have brains but they fail to proceed with their education because the Government is not looking at their needs. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare are supposed to work together to look at the welfare of our children. We need to look at the issue of sport and how much it will contribute to this country’s economy. These are serious issues which can affect the future of a country. We should relook at the concerns of the nation. In this House, we just know how to talk and not to act.

 

Madam Chairperson, I do not understand why the issue of the Children’s Code Bill is being delayed. I think domestication has not only been a problem in Zambia but also, in other countries.  What are we scared of? This ministry should also liaise with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services on the issue of juvenile welfare and how they are incarcerated. We should look at the institutions such as the juvenile prison in Katombola. All these issues need our intervention. We need to be there and we should not just concentrate on one area. We should not choose. We should be in charge of those in universities, prisons and on the street.

 

Madam Chairperson, when I had a chance to serve in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare, had an opportunity to deal with the youths in this country and I did what I could. Therefore, we need to put in consented effort in order to help our youths in this country. The ministries should come together and find a common goal. If they need a committee to resolve issues that are affecting the youths, they should do it now. From time in memorial, the youth empowerment fund has not been appropriated properly in this country. We should shift from this from now onwards. We need these small skills schools in all institutions and all those teachers and instructors whose positions are pending. There is no framework to date. There is no structure. You must relook at this. Let us motivate these people in the skills schools. They are there in certain areas, but we have not pushed the agenda properly.

 

The hon. Minister talked about the development of stadia in Mongu and Livingstone, but nothing has happened to date. They are just on paper and yet somebody is even referring to the President’s speech and what have you. It is just rhetoric. Nothing actually comes out there.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: He always pronounces a lot of issues and none are achieved.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: This is the sixth year. Sonta tumone mu Mongu.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Muchima: What I am saying is that point at what you have done on the stadium in Mongu. Sonta in North-Western at your effectiveness.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: Kulibe! There is nothing ...

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: ... and yet we are spending money every now and then.

 

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Muchima: That Sonta is sontaring you in the negative.

 

Interruption

 

The First Chairperson: Mr Muchima, you are being derailed because you are responding. Can you focus on the policy?

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, I was saying that they should seriously relook at the Action Plan which they want to effect and correct what has not been done properly. For a long time, we have not been doing things in a proper manner. Maybe, let us sit down, for the first time, and see how we can manage our affairs properly in the interest of the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, we are talking about resettlement schemes. These schemes are already established. There is no need to establish some for the youth and others for the women. Let us just develop the ones we already have because it is just one source that is funding the resettlement schemes. Instead of utilising these, we are not making any move. Let us choose one district somewhere and let it be a model that can be replicated. This is not happening. I have not seen it.

 

It is high time we started being answerable and accountable. When we shall be sitting to pass the next Budget we will require you to tell us the achievements of the previous Budget. We have seen that we always talk about what we intend do, but do not receive anything at the end of the day.

 

Madam Chairperson, I support this Budget on condition that they relook at it and come up with a strategic plan.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Madam Chairperson, firstly, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development for the well articulated policy statement.

Madam Chairperson, in supporting the Budget for the ministry, I want to observe that we also need to explore how the ministry can turn its fortunes by adding some revenue to the treasury.

 

The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development is capable of developing a business plan which would result in a lot of revenue to the Government coffers. Earlier, I had indicated on the Floor of this House that the state of our infrastructure, particularly, stadiums, is in a deplorable state. These facilities can actually be offloaded and advertised to the private sector for management instead of dipping into the Government coffers for their management.

 

Madam Chairperson, the private sector has the resources to invest in these areas and the people that watch football, netball and boxing can actually pay and support the maintenance of this infrastructure.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have also noted some teething problems at the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ). If managers are not able to talk to one another and are busy with disciplinary processes, they cannot focus on their core business. They get detracted because their attention will be directed to protecting themselves. This can create problems for the country as a whole. So, we need to address the issue of the in-fighting at FAZ so that soccer can develop.

 

Madam Chairperson, we also need to invest in youth development because if we do not, we cannot get anything out of the youth. It is envisaged that the private sector can come on board so as to support the youth skills training that we have in our districts. We do not need to deep our fingers into the Government coffers to support, for instance, the youth resources centres. These can be offloaded or advertised to the private sector which can provide equipment which the youth can use for sports activities such as gyms. The gyms can also become revenue generating ventures for the Government.

 

Madam Chairperson, these are some of areas that the ministry should look at as it develops a business plan so that this industry can flourish and add value to the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ).

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice and that of the people of Choma and the United Party for National Development (UPND) on the Motion on the Floor.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to begin by rendering my heartfelt condolences to the family of the late Hon. Mkhondo Lungu on his untimely passing. I will miss the times that I spent with him in this House because I learnt a lot from him and his experience and guidance.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I begin to debate, I would like to state that today, I want to be very brief and non-controversial, as usual ...

 

Laughter

 

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: ... and just dwell on very few issues because the hon. Members who have debated have covered quite a span of issues that it is needless for me to go through the same.

 

Hon. Member: Question!

 

Mr Mweetwa: I however, have to start my debate on a very sad note of recognition that only three weeks from now the African Cup of Nations Tournament will commence on 14th January, 2017. For the very first time in a long time, Zambia has not qualified to participate at these important continental games. That failure speaks volumes as to how this PF Government has managed, in fact, mismanaged sports in the country.

 

Mr Lusambo: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: In Zambia where the economy is so hard hitting being mismanaged by the PF, one of the few things that create joy on the faces of Zambians is when, for instance Zambia won the Africa Cup …

 

Hon. Government Members: Under PF!

 

Mr Mweetwa: …in 2012.

 

Hon. Members: Under PF!

 

Mr Livune: No!

 

It was MMD.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: It was under PF.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: I have told you that today I am none controversial.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mweetwa: It was under the PF Government. Even with a depressed economy under the PF we still managed to smile because of the football victory. Now, in the next few weeks we will be watching other countries participating in the African Cup of Nations Tournament since Zambia has failed to qualify because of poor administration by the PF. The body that administers football is in wrangles where political cadres seem to be interfering in the running of football to an extent where the President of FAZ was attacked and beaten in the presence of the head of State.

 

Mr Livune: Shame!

 

Mr Mweetwa: How do we expect therefore, to qualify to the African Cup of Nations Tournament, where people who are involved in sports administration, some of them have turned into political vuvuzelas of the PF.

 

Madam Chairperson, look at what is happening now. Even qualifying to the world cup is becoming more and bleak by the day. This is so even when President Lungu had to buy free tickets for the whole stadium to supposedly get some political mileage…

 

Hon. Government members: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: … because PF is a bad brand, it costs the nation by losing at home to Nigeria.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, all these are examples that I am showing you that football is being mismanaged by the PF which is also a bad political brand.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, let me come to the issues of substance …

 

Mr Mwamba: So, ifyo walanda tafikwete substance!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Livune: Hammer, hammer!

 

Mr Mweemba: I want to talk about sports development in Zambia.

 

Madam Chairperson, if you recall, sometime last year, I moved a Motion here to urge the Executive to move the function of sports development from the Ministry of Sports and anchor it in the Ministry of General Education which has the youth that are already structured, in school and also has infrastructure.

 

Mr Lusambo: That is happening.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Someone can be saying that is what we are trying to do but when you go on the ground, there is no sports activity happening as we used to see before. The hon. Minister of Sports here was talking about Zambia that it shall continue participating at international events. He even talked about continuing to win medals, hon. Minister; you do not win medals at international events by dreaming. You have to invest in sports. This far, there is no substantial investment I am seeing in sports. Look at what we are talking about here; we are talking about the present and the future of this nation. How much money are we putting aside for sports development…

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: …compared to the money we are wasting. Look at the budget we were discussing yesterday which took the whole day. No wonder we were resisting that budget for ministry of Home Affairs because that budget represented misapplication of public resources. I wish the Ministry of Finance could be audited and appear before the Public Accounts Committee to explain how the hon. Minister of Finance can budget such huge amounts to the Ministry of Home Affairs for programmes such as public order…

 

The First Chairperson: We passed Ministry of Home Affairs.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mweetwa: I am talking about the inadequacy of this budget for the ministry iof sports…

 

The First Chairperson: Restrict your debate to the ministry of youth.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Yes, Madam Chairperson, this ministry of sports needs more money…

 

The First Chairperson: Yes.

 

Mr Mweetwa: …but that Government through the ministry of finance is misapplying money…

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: …which was supposed to go to meaningful programmes under the Ministry of Sport instead of wasteful programmes such as public order.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: in this region, Zambia is known to be an oasis of peace.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: To be a very peaceful nation…

 

Mr Livune: That I right.

 

Mr Mweetwa: ...but the budget that we are putting in place shows as if Zambia has a big problem in terms of public order. We know that all that money meant for public order is just going to be wasted.

 

Mr Mundubile: How many tots?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: So, I think these are things that must be taken seriously. This is Parliament we must be talking about things in a sober manner…

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: … and be able to discuss things that are shaping the country in a meaningful and progressive direction.

 

Mr Mutelo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, I think the Ministry of Youth in my view should have been given more money than what we are seeing at the moment if what the hon. Minister has said has to take place. I am speaking from a background of being a sportsman myself. I did a lot of sport at primary, secondary school and even at university level.

 

Mr Livune: Up to now.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Even here at Parliament, I am one of the dependable players for the hon. Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, you find that when you go to these institutions of learning such universities and colleges for instance, there these important games that take place amongst universities and colleges where at the end of the day they even compete in the SADC region. Look at the support that these games get from the ministry. If the ministry has to support that college sport they only thing I am aware that the ministry does is to give them a bus to go and compete in these games in South Africa, Swaziland or Mozambique yet the money that goes into programmes that I see not benefit for the country such as public order, are colossal.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, even the same expenditure within the ministry, I am seeing a lot of waste. I was asking Prof. Lungwangwa here that what is it that African Ministers of Sports go to do when a national team is playing in another country and ministers fly at a very huge cost. What do these ministers go to do which we do not see other teams or other countries with advanced…

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mweetwa: …economies do not.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mweetwa: Here, when you host games, you buy tickets using tax payers money and cause the team to lose.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: When the team goes out to play, the minister flyers again the team loses.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: So, this whole thing of wastage… If we can put this money into productive ventures like youth development it will go a long way.

 

Madam Chairperson, as we speak now, I tell you that at the university, I used to play volleyball, Prof. Lungwangwa was our coach.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, as we speak, Kamwala Magic, one of our ladies volley ball teams has qualified to go to Botswana, I think in February, 2017. What money have you put in the budget hon. Minister to support other sports other than football? It is like in Zambia when you are a minister of sport, you are a minister of football and yet there are so many other sports disciplines that are looking for support but it is not there. The hon. Minister is only heard talking about football, FAZ that is all. When there is a programme to distribute any sport equipment, it is just football ten per constituency. What can ten footballs do for Choma?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: That is why I refused to get your footballs which you wanted to give me last time, Hon. Mwale…

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mweetwa: …because I am buying more football than those few and you took them to your constituency

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, I want to talk about the youth fund. I think that the youth fund is being abused and there is no need to continue budgeting for it under the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development going by what we have seen where hon. Ministers parade themselves and distribute cheques for the youth fund. We should have anchored the youth fund in economic ministries that can come up with viable projects unlike the current situation where there is no serious programme for the youth.

 

Madam Chairperson, in urban areas, we have a lot of young energetic people. Therefore, we should have come up with programmes to harness that energy into production. The biggest challenge we have in this country is that we have a certain group of individuals who believe more in consumption and not production …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: … and that is why we cannot grow our economy. How many young people are going to benefit from ten buses? For instance, in the Southern Province in the last three years, it is only the youths in Livingstone who benefitted from the youth fund because of the by-election that was in Livingstone. The programmes that were funded are street oriented businesses like barber shops. It is high time we came up with a leadership that will value production and not trading. The Government is promoting streetism and a wheelbarrow pushing economy by the young people.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: However, what do you expect from a leadership that does not value production? Some youths who push wheelbarrows in Lusaka Town and afford three square meals think they are better than those who rear animals in Choma. I do not blame those people, but the mentality of the leadership which we have. We have a wheelbarrow pushing mentality …

 

The First Chairperson: Speak through the Chair, Hon. Mweetwa.

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, we have a wheelbarrow pushing economy mentality and until we move away from that and value production, this country is not going anywhere and we are doing a disservice to the young people.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: We are just making political statements that end as political rhetoric and there is no programme for the youth. Come 2021, they should not be surprised when the youth vote for Mr Hakainde Hichilema (HH) so that they can rest.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga and Mr Miti rose.

 

The First Chairperson: Who is more youthful between the two of you?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Die hard!

 

Mr Miti (Feira): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this chance to debate on the policy statement presented by the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development. I will be very brief and I am more concerned on the Youth Empowerment Fund.

 

Madam Chairperson, just like the hon. Members of Parliament for Ikeleng’i and Choma Central have stated …

 

Hon. UPND Members: That is right!

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Miti: … the Youth Empowerment Fund is being misapplied and the reason is simple. As Zambians, we have a culture that what comes from the Government is free of charge. We have this culture because there is no much capacity building in entrepreneurship. The President rightly stated that for our economy to move forward, we need to diversify into agriculture and tourism and, of course, entrepreneurship and skills development.  Entrepreneurship and skills development is a general player which is supposed to be found in every ministry. In the absence of a ministry to handle entrepreneurship and skills development, we need to have entrepreneurship desks in every ministry and the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development is no exceptional.

 

Madam Chairperson, when the President formed the four new ministries, I expected him to also include a ministry to do with entrepreneurship and skills development which should have handled matters to do with creativity, innovation and skills development. Trying to squeeze entrepreneurship into the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry is not good at all. When it comes to youth empowerment, we have so many youths doing nothing in rural areas, for example, in Feira. Now, how can we empower the youths in Feira Constituency? The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development gives out the Youth Empowerment Fund in form of hand outs which are hand to mouth.

 

Madam Chairperson, firstly, we need to build capacity in our youths and then empower them. For example, we may instruct the youths to form co-operatives which can be involved in different businesses such as tailoring, carpentry or poultry, and before we disburse the funds, teach them how to manage these businesses. Thereafter, we can disburse the funds in form of stock and not necessarily hard cash. So, in its current form, the Youth Empowerment Fund will not take us anywhere. The hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development should ensure that we embark on building capacity in our youths. Let them acquire a bit of entrepreneurial knowledge on how they can start, manage and grow their small businesses.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is possible to create 100,000 jobs next year and indeed a million jobs by 2021 if we handle youth empowerment properly.

 

Mr Muchima: Correct!

 

Mr Miti: If we do not do that, then nothing will happen. Those 100,000 or 1 million jobs will not be created. Entrepreneurship is very cardinal. I am still appealing to the President to consider creating a ministry that will handle entrepreneurship and skills development. In its absence, I expected, for example, the Ministries of Commerce, Trade and Industry, Agriculture and Youth, Sport and Child Development to be in charge of entrepreneurship. Some countries have prospered because they have valued entrepreneurship. They have ministries on entrepreneurship and their economies are doing fine. If this Youth Empowerment Fund continues to be disbursed the way it is currently being done, it will be a systematic misappropriation of funds in this ministry.

 

With these few words, I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to add my voice to this important Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development, on behalf of the people of Kaputa.

 

To begin, I would like to look at the way the budget figures have been shared within this ministry. I want to urge the hon. Minister of Finance to put more resources in this ministry, in future, regardless of the small Budget that we have. Where I come from, we say Imiti Ikula Enpanga. Therefore, if we have to prepare a better Zambia …

 

Hon. Members: Meaning?

 

Mr Ng’onga: Meaning that the youth are the future leaders of tomorrow and, for us to benefit as a country, we need to start preparing them now.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development was allocated K44,831,638. In 2017, the ministry has been allocated K59,412,320. Basically, what this is telling me is that we are not putting resources where they matter most. I know for sure that there are many demanding areas where we need to put our resources but this particular ministry is one where our national resources must be directed for us to be able to prepare the youth of today for the jobs that they want to take up in the coming years.

 

Madam Chairperson, I analysed this allocation of K59,412,320. I found that under youth affairs K17,966,793 was allocated, under sports department K26,924,579 was allocated and under child affairs K4,639,319 was allocated. This, again, tells me that this ministry is much more focused on sports development as opposed to youth affairs and child development and this is where my debate rises.

 

Madam Chairperson, we definitely need to start thinking beyond doing things the normal way. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development must put much more emphasis and resources on the development of the youth. Many hon. Members who debated spoke about how the youth are the drivers of the economy. They are the people that we need to develop for jobs and future programmes that we have. I think that this is the thrust of this ministry.

 

Indeed, sport enlightens all of us and is part of youth development. It stops our youth from activities that may be detrimental to their lives. However, it should just be part of the programmes under youth development. Unfortunately, the ministry focuses more on this aspect. We must start looking at how to develop our youth. This is the most important challenge that we have as Governments in Africa. We have a huge population of youthful age and we are not able to provide them with the employment that they so need and cherish at such a time. This is a big challenge.

 

These Governments, however, have put in place ministries such as the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development so that we can be able to think outside the box and see how best we can maximise on this youthful generation. I want to thank the hon. Minister for the programmes that have been put in place for youth empowerment …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Mr Ng’onga: Madam Chairperson, before we went for tea break, I had just fished analysing the budget figures that have been allocated to the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development.

 

Madam, I also indicated that going forward, we need to put more resources to this ministry realising that this is a very important ministry in that it prepares our youths for the future leadership that we will leave with them going forward.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me briefly look at the youth empowerment and youth empowerment programmes. Basically, I was saying that we are grateful for the opening of the Mwange Youth Resource Center in Mporokoso which is a resettlement scheme for the youth. We know that Mwange Youth Centre will not only cater for youths of Mporokoso, but also for the youths of Kawambwa, Kaputa, Nsama and possibly the youths from the Luwingu. However, having passed through that youth resettlement center, I see very little activities, hon. Minister that has been taken so far.  Probably, we would like to urge the ministry to ensure more is done so that we can see a number of our youths in those areas resettled in 2017.

 

Madam, we know for sure that is a very good agricultural locality. Therefore, collaborating with the ministries of Agriculture and Fisheries and Livestock, there will be many programmes that the youths in the northern region can be involved. Apart from that, they will also be empowered and add their output to the economies of these particular areas that I have talked about.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me address myself to the sporting activities that our youths need to be involved in and be empowered. This could be the sports that are done in schools and also at village level.

 

Madam, the hon. Minister should know that nowadays, you would find that hon. Members of Parliament are the major source of supplying sport requisites such as footballs and jerseys that the youths require. This should not be the case because this is the more reason the ministry should be in the forefront in the provision of sports requirements. If the resources are inadequate, then, the ministry can negotiate for tax relief on the equipment that supports sporting activities because we know that in the rural areas like Kaputa, most of the time, especially after harvesting, the youths are all involved in one sport or the other to keep because that is what keeps them busy. If the sporting equipment such as footballs and alike were affordable, I do not think they would be bothering hon. Member of Parliament to supply them with the sports activities.

 

Madam, finally, youth and employment still remains a big challenge and not only for the youths that are in urban centres like Lusaka, but also our youths in the rural places where employment levels is very high. Therefore, the ministry must think outside the box and ensure that it addresses activities and guarantee that resources that are located to it are invested into programmes that ensure that even the rural youth is actually engaged at that centre.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to advise the hon. Minister that from the experience that I have had as hon. Member of Parliament, the questionnaires that are sent to the rural districts for the youth empowerment fund are either complicated or the people who are involved in the drafting of these forms do not have the rural youth in mind because what these questionnaires ask for are not found in Kaputa.

 

For instance, if you are asking for a business plan and the projections in the business plan, then, you should as well forget to empower the youths of Kaputa because they are basically at a level where those things cannot be done. Even if you tell them to go and pay money to have those thins generated, it is questionable that they can succeed. So, let us devise forms or requirements that would suit the kind of youths that we are dealing with because we also want them to benefit from the resources that come from the ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, with these very few words, I wish to thank you for this opportunity.

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Could the on. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development try to wind up debate within eight minutes.

Mr Ngulube: In fact, five minutes.

 

The Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development (Mr Mawere): Madam Chairperson, indeed, I will wind up my debate in a few minutes.

 

Madam, first of all, I would want to thank all hon. Members of Parliament who have participated in contributing on this very important budget. I also want to thank hon. Members of Parliament for realising that indeed, this ministry is a very important office as it cuts across all activities of all ministries we have in Zambian. As such, this ministry needs more attention in terms of funding so that our future leaders who are the youths can truly be empowered.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to make an official announcement concerning our sports performance in different tournaments. Actually, I want to announce that our U-20 National Team has qualified to the Council of Southern Africa Football Associations (COSAFA) Finals, …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mawere: … this will take place tomorrow, Friday, 16th December, 2016. This is a sign that the working Government of the Patriotic Front (PF) has put sport as one of the important activity to empower our youth because sport can indeed, bring or change our youth livelihood.

 

Madam, let me comment to Hon. Katuta who contributed on the ministry and wondered whether the ministry has any policy, I would want to inform Hon. Katuta that actually the ministry has three policies; child, sports, and the youth policies. Of course, I agree with her that we need more funding for the ministry to remain relevant to our future leaders who are the youths.

 

Madam Chairperson, in terms of developing our youths starting from the grassroots level, we have put up a programme, which is a community self-space. We are also working in collaboration with other ministries like the ministries of General Education and Higher Education to ensure that sports is promoted starting from schools, colleges up to the elite level.

 

Madam, on the question whether the Government will consider distributing all youth programmes in all corners of this country, I wish to state that actually, that is what we are currently doing because that is the intention of this Government. The hon. Member also questioned the manner we have distributed the Higer Bus empowerment programme, I want to state that we procured twenty-five buses and all of them have been distributed equitably to all the province of Zambia as follows:

 

Province                      No. of Buses   

 

Central                                    2;

 

Luapula                       4;

 

Copperbelt                  4;

 

Muchinga                    2;

 

Northern                      2;

 

North Western                        2;

 

Southern                      2;

 

Eastern                                    2;

 

Western                       2; and

 

Lusaka                         3.

 

Madam, Chairperson, we do not segregate in the way we allocate our programmes.

 

Madam, Hon. Muchima also contributed that indeed, the youth of this country are a future of this country and therefore, we need to have a plan for them. I want to assure the hon. Member that indeed, as a ministry, we have plans in place. We also have the 2015 Youth Sports Policies and Action Plans, which I alluded to in policy statement and we will continue using the same because those activities are still active to today. 

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry always consults stakeholders, including the private sector, on numerous issues. Currently, we have actually involved a lot of stakeholders in developing our Child Code Bill, which is with the Ministry of Justice. I am very sure that very soon this Bill will come to this august House for deliberation. I know from what Hon. Muchima has indicated that it will be a non-controversial matter and will pass with very few comments.

 

Madam, in his contribution, Hon. Kabanda emphasised that we should turn some of our infrastructure and programmes into income generating facilities so that our country can earn the needed resources. Of course, that is what this ministry intends to do because we realise that we can use sport as a means through which we can empower our youths. We have seen it world over that sports men and women who are at the elite level are able to earn a lot of income.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to challenge Hon. Mweetwa to bring to this House and lay on the Table evidence regarding his allegation that our Republican President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, bought tickets for cadres to go and watch football in Ndola. As honourable people in here, we are supposed to debate with facts.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mawere: So I hope tomorrow I will see those facts on the Table. In terms of qualification, of course …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

You have one minute, hon. Minister.

 

Mr Mawere: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I acknowledge that yes sometimes it is not always that we can qualify for a tournament, but our country has performed very well under my administration from what is happening so far. We have sent a team to South Africa to go and participate in the annual tournament organised by the Council of Southern Africa Football Associations (COSAFA) where our players are doing very well and have reached the finals. We have also sent athletes in Angola where we have reaped ten medals, including gold. Our Under 17 National Football Team is still progressing in the qualification for next year’s Confederation of African Football (CAF) Junior Championship. So these are signs that our ministry is performing.

 

In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, I want to state that our youths will continue to be at the centre stage of our development as a country. As a working Government, we will ensure that youths take centre stage in all programmes which this Government is developing for its citizens.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: That is commendable hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development. Well done.

 

Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 76/02 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development – Youth Affairs Department – K17,966,793).

 

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5100, Activity 017 – Youth Development Bank-Preparations. I have seen that this activity was budgeted for this year, but for next year there is nothing. Why is that the case?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the banks are not coming forth.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

The First Chairperson: Can you repeat your answer. There was an allocation this year, but for 2017 there is none. Can you explain why.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the preparations were planned for this year and the activity was done. So there is no need for us to proceed with it again next year.

 

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 062 – Manyinga Youth Resource Centre – K100,000. The same allocation for 2016 has been provided in 2017 and yet, the cost of everything is going up. How are the resource centres going to manage with such allocations?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, this grant is meant to facilitate the operations of the Manyinga Youth Resources Centre in order to implement youth development programmes effectively and efficiently.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

The First Chairperson: Why has the allocation remained the same from 2016 to 2017? That was the question.

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, it is because this is the allocated budget and we would only want to spend what we have.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwene: Madam Chairperson, may I get an explanation for Unit 03, Programme 9000, Activity 001 –Inspection of Youth Programmes and Activities. This activity was budgeted for this year, but for next year there is nothing. Does it mean that next year there will not be inspection of the youth programmes and activities?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, this provision is meant to meet the cost of inspecting youth programmes and projects. This activity has, however, been realigned and provided for under Programme 5027, Activity 028 – Inspection of Youth Programmes and Projects – K100,000.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 76/03 – (Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development – Sports Department – K26,924,579).

 

Mr Mwene: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5098, Activity 007 – Capacity Building for Coaches. This year the activity was budgeted for but next year it has not been budgeted for. Why?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, the programme came to an end so we did not need to budget for it.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5041, Activity 001 – Ministerial Social Team – K48,000. What is the Ministerial Social Team?

 

Mr Mawere: Madam Chairperson, this provision is meant to cover the cost of sport for development and peace and this is a new activity under our ministry.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 76/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 76/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 77 – (Ministry of Defence – K685,796,472).

 

The Minister of Defence (Mr Chama): Madam Chairperson, allow me to join other hon. Members of the House who have expressed the message of condolences to the bereaved family of the former Deputy Speaker of this august House, Hon. Mkondo Lungu. I was a bit late to the House because I had to pass through the Church service to pay my last respect. May his soul rest in peace.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to stand before this august House to present the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Defence for the period 1st January to 31st December, 2017. I take this opportunity to commend the hon. Minister of Finance, Hon. Felix Mutati for presenting the 2017 National Budget with the theme, “Restoring Fiscal Fitness for Sustained Inclusive Growth for National Development.”

 

Madam Chairperson, in our quest to present an all embracing budget which is sensitive to the development needs of the nation at large, we have taken into consideration the President’s pronouncements, the Patriotic Front (PF) manifesto and the proposed Seventh National Development Plan (7th NDP). Our mission statement as a ministry is, “To Preserve, Protect, and Defend the Country in a Professional Manner in order to Maintain Peace and Security for the Citizenry and Contribute to National Development.”

 

Madam Chairperson, during the period under review, my ministry had an approved budget of K3,088,778,707. Using the availed resources, my ministry achieved the following:

 

Modernisation of the Defence Force and the Zambia National Service (ZNS)

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry continued to equip and modernise the defence force and the ZNS. During the period under review, my ministry procured specialised equipment and vehicles for operations. Through these efforts, the ministry continued to uphold its vision of maintaining peace and stability for sustained national development.

 

Infrastructure Development

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry, through the ZNS Land Development Branch (LDB), opened 1,406, roads, formed 1,524 roads and gravelled 1,128 km of rural roads.  I am happy to report to this august House that my ministry has completed and handed over to the services the following projects; the L85 water reticulation project for the Zambia Army in Lusaka West and the Zambia Air force (ZAF) Ibex Aviation Town known as Twin Palm water reticulation project in Lusaka.  Other infrastructure development projects undertaken include, the construction of grain sheds at the ZNS airport farms, completion of Phase I of the ZAF hospital and commencement of the construction of 1,063 housing units at Kala Camp in Kawambwa for the newly established twenty-eight Marine Unit.

 

Agriculture

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry recognises the importance of the agriculture sector for sustained economic growth of our country. To this effect, my ministry procured specialised agricultural equipment including centre pivots for the ZNS. This equipment is part of the on-going drive to enhance production under the crop diversification programme. Furthermore, this august House may wish to know that in the 2015/2016 agricultural season, the ZNS cultivated a total of 1,940 ha of maize, 300 ha of wheat and 180 ha of soya beans. From these hectares, the ZNS produced 97,722 x 50 kg bags of maize, 18,610 x 50 kg bags of wheat and 9,906 x 50 kg bags of soya beans. It is clear from this that the ZNS efforts are contributing to the enhancement of national food security.

 

Youth Skills

 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to report that the ZNS has completed the construction of Phase I of the youth skills training centre at the ZNS Chisamba Camp in Kasama and purchase of equipment has commenced.

 

International Engagements

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry continues to actively participate in regional and international engagements aimed at contributing towards the maintenance of international peace and security. In this regard, my ministry has participated in two Joint Permanent Commissions (JPCs) with neighbouring countries namely, Angola and Botswana. As this august House may be aware, the JPCs with our neighbouring countries are for resolving matters of mutual interest in defence and security for the purpose of maintaining good neighbourliness.

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia Army has continued to contribute troops to the United Nation Peace Keeping and Peace Support Mission particularly in the Central African Republic (CAR). In addition, the defence force has continued to sending officers, soldiers, military observers in conflict torn areas within the continent.

 

2017 Budget Highlights

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me now to give you the overview of the ministry’s 2017 Budget. The Ministry of Defence Budget Estimates for the year beginning 1st January to 31st December, 2017 is K3,204,632,846 representing a 3.8 per cent increase over the approved 2016 Budget.

 

Out of this budget estimates, 90.8 per cent will go towards Personal Emoluments while the balance of 9.2 per cent will be spent on Recurrent Department Charges and Grant aided institutions.

 

Madam Chairperson, with this overview of the budget, allow me now to proceed with salient features:

 

Operations and Rations

 

My ministry has set aside an amount of K193 million towards operations and rations which are crucial to the smooth running of the defence forces who are the key to achieving the core mandate of the ministry.

 

Infrastructure Development

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry has set aside K12,299,582 towards ongoing infrastructure projects.

 

Youth Skills Training Programmes

 

My ministry has made a provision of K6,059,000 in the 2017 Budget for the completion of ongoing construction of youth skills centres.

 

Agriculture

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia National Service (ZNS) is expected to cultivate 3,895 hectares in the year 2016/17 farming season broken down as follows: 2,565 hectares of maize; 680 hectares of wheat; and 650 hectares of soya beans. In comparison to 2015/16 Farming Season, ZNS increased its hectarage by 895 hectares. ZNS expects to cultivate this hectarage during the 2017 budgetary allocations for crops and resources generated from 2015/16 Crop Marketing Season.

 

As I conclude, Madam Chairperson, my ministry remains committed to fulfilling its mandate and will strive to ensure that our much cherished peace and stability is preserved. In this regard, I commend the men and women in uniform for their unwavering support and loyalty to the Government of the Republic of Zambia.

 

Finally, Madam Chairperson, I now call upon the hon. Members of this august House to fully support the approval of the 2017 Ministry of Defence Budget Estimates as presented.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Madam Chairperson, I will be brief in my debate, perhaps the briefest that I have ever been.

 

First of all, I would like to commend, just like the Minister of Defence has said, our men and women in uniform, particularly the Zambia Army, for being professional and showing any aorta of political inclination. That is as it should be.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kalila: However, Madam Chairperson, I am greatly concerned by the budget structure that has been given to us by the Minister of Defence. He has said the entire budget 90.5 per cent is for Personal Emoluments. To me, Madam Chairperson, it indicates that we are actually going to keep our army inactive and that should not be allowed.

 

There is very little money allocated for maintenance of equipment and generally to keep them fit and in the state of high alert, this requires some money. So, if 90.5 per cent will go to personal emoluments, it means that our defence and security forces will just merely be reporting for work routinely and going back home for the entire one year. I think that is not the way to run an army. We should look at this aspect in our future budget to ensure that there is more money given to their core business.

 

Of course it is in peace time I know, but certainly, we the citizens, need a certain level of assurance that in the event of any unforeseen aggression, we will be safe because our army is in a state of high alert. However, with this kind of budgeting, that is the reason why I stood, Madam Chairperson, to just express that concern.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Gen. Sitwala (Kaoma Central): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for according this opportunity to say a few words on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Defence.

 

From the onset, I would like to request the Members of this august House to support this budget as presented by the Minister of Defence.

 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

 

Gen. Sitwala: It is quite a difficult Vote to debate on the Floor of this House by virtue of certain implications. However, I want to mention that the ministry like my colleague here has referred to, require a lot of resources to operate. We must never take the peace that we are enjoying in this country for granted. Our defence and security services require a lot of money to operate in a professional, and as well as to compete reasonably with our colleagues in the region.

 

I hope that the hon. Minister, during the course of the coming year, go further and consult the Ministry of Finance to find more resources to ensure that our men and women in uniform are looked after very well.

 

Madam Chairperson, as already mentioned by my colleague, looking at these figures, we cannot even go through because they are just talking about salaries. I am aware that there is a lot that is required to training our men for operations. In administration and logistics, there is a lot that we require for the housing of our men and women in uniform. I know that there are still a lot of problems that they face in the areas of water, electricity even feeding and benefits for those who have retired. So, we need to do quite a lot to ensure that our defence forces are taken care of and we get the maximum protection that we need from them.

 

Peace is something that you cannot measure. I think as Members of this House, we must cherish that over the years, our defence forces have done quite a lot in maintaining the peace of this country for which we must commend them so much for.

 

Suffice to say that they require a lot of money to maintain and service the equipment that they have. They are already having problems in the areas of transport this we see even as we move in our towns here.

 

With these few words, Madam, for obvious reasons, I want to limit my debate just to this and hope that the Minister through you, Madam Chairperson, will do more to ensure that our defence forces are looked after much better. This is really nothing. If I had my way, I would have loved that this budget is even doubled.

 

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Ema General aya!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Chairperson, ...

 

Mr Mutale: walishe inkondo iwe?

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: ... I would like to make a few comments as I stand to support the Budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, one of Africa’s biggest challenges is silencing the gun by 2030. That is the commitment of nations on the African continent because our biggest challenge is peace and security. Wherever you look on the African continent, there is insecurity and fighting. As the hon. Minister has pointed out, our men and women in uniform are doing a commendable job to contribute towards the restoration of peace and security on our continent and that is how it should be. We would like to see more of our men and women in uniform playing that critical role in different parts of the continent because that is part of the Agenda 2063, which deals with the transformation of the African continent and ensuring that there is peace and security.

 

Madam Chairperson, from what the hon. Minister has pointed out, it is very clear that our men and women in uniform do more than just ensuring peace prevails in the country. There are indications that our institutions of defence are actually investment institutions. They are institutions for creating wealth, empowering the people and contributing towards the totality of the transformation of our country. I think we need to do more in that sense.

 

Madam Chairperson, our institutions of defence have what it takes to transform our nation, especially the countryside. Our institutions of defence have people in them who have the skills, endurance, discipline, patriotism and tenacity to effectively contribute towards the transformation of our countryside. They can play a critical role by constructing bridges in the country side to ensure that those crossing points which cause a challenge for our little children in the rural areas are done.

 

Madam Chairperson, if our men and women in uniform are properly financed, they can, within a short space of time, ensure that our feeder roads are worked on so that our people are able to transport their goods and services with ease. What they are doing in the field of agriculture, infrastructure development and youth skills training is vital to our country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to hear more in terms of what we can do to ensure that we do not order uniforms for our soldiers from other countries. What happened to Mulungushi Textiles? It is a very important institution which can manufacture uniforms for our men and women in the defence forces. We should ensure that we reserve our meagre foreign exchange by not ordering uniforms when we can manufacture them at Mulungushi Textiles.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have defence force which, if properly guided, can contribute towards the transformation of our country. This is what we want to see happen. We should not be talking about feeder roads repeatedly in this House. That can be done by our men and women in uniform who can bridge the gap between the rural and urban areas. Let us reposition the role of our men and women in uniform in order to transform our country and achieve development within the shortest possible time. This can be done. It just needs a transformation of our mindset.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Syakalima (Chirundu): Madam Chairperson, ...

 

Mr Lusambo: eh ma pastor aba!

 

Mr Syakalima: ... in contributing to this Vote on the Ministry of Defence ...

 

Mr Mutale: Not kulufyanya!

 

Mr Syakalima: ... I must follow the recommendations of hon. Members who have debated before me, especially the Brig. Gen. Sitwala.

 

Madam Chairperson, about 90 per cent of the money going to the Ministry of Defence is going towards salaries. It seems like a lot, but I can assure you that this is very little. In statistical terms, it is 90 per cent of nothing. We need to boost the morale of the people who we strategically keep to defend our country.

 

Mr Mutale: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: We have always said we are a peaceful nation, but I believe peace is relative. If the men and women in uniform are being given peanuts and then war breaks out ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Syakalima: Can I refer to our Constitution ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Syakalima, first of all, withdraw the word ‘peanuts’ and please, I think for once, let us agree that some of the issues that are of national importance be regarded with the sensitivity that they deserve.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: Please take that into account. I also guided earlier that we try to be as brief as possible.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, one has to listen to where my debate going. I want to state that ..

 

The First Chairperson: No. Just withdraw the word ‘peanuts’ and then continue bearing in mind the sensitivity of the issue that we are debating.

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for that guidance. I was trying to bring out those same sensitivities. Our own Constitution states what I have just said. In case people do not want to listen to me, they should read their Constitution. The Constitution states exactly the words I have mentioned. If members do not want to hear those words from me, I will leave that topic.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Yes!

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, in case someone is in trouble …

 

Hon. Government Members: From who?

 

Mr Syakalima: Whoever!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I have taught at a military college for ten years here in Zambia ...

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: …and I know what I am talking about. I know the discipline that is our defence force. That is what I want to tell them. They should listen to me because I am speaking out of experience. I am talking about our men and women in uniform. I do not talk about things anyhow unless they are things that I have seen or know. There is discipline in our defence force and we all know that discipline can sometimes go off our hands. That is what I am trying to talk about. So, the morale of our men and women in uniform cannot be over emphasised, especially in our defence force. What I said about the police is different from what I am saying about the defence force. The Zambia Air Force (ZAF) has a different connotation when it comes to elections and this makes people have a different perception. This is where we have to work very hard in order to make that other wing be perceived properly by the Zambians.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am also aware that in Luapula Province, our marines are finding difficulties in terms of fuel to enable them patrol the water bodies. We must fund them adequately so that they are able to keep borders in peace.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Our marines in the Luapula, ...

 

Mr Lusambo: Wachinja futi?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I have travelled to a lot of places and I know every aspect of our institutions in this country. We need to do something especially over our marines. The marine unit is a newly …

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order on the right! Let the hon. Member debate.

 

Mr Syakalima: …established wing in our defence force. We therefore, need to make sure that they are funded adequately in order for them to patrol our water bodies. We also need to extend this to areas where we do not have marines especially, on the Lake Kariba which is near my village.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I emphasised on the marines because that is a new wing. Every new wing must be supported by this House. We know that the people that we deploy do not have permanent homes there. I am sure the Minister of Defence knows what I mean. He knows what goes on when people are kept for a long time without essentials. It really becomes difficult for them to operate properly.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about deployment of troops on the streets. I want to appeal to the hon. Minister to lessen the issue of deploying troops on the streets. We should avoid deploying soldiers on the street unless the police have failed to control the situation. In this case, the Inspector-General (IG) needs to write to the Minister of Defence to say they are unable to combat the situation. Soldiers are not trained to combat crime but to kill.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, we have put the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to combat smuggling. This is because of the discipline again but I think we will be exposing them to the vices that we needed them to avoid. As the time goes by, ZNS will be working together with the police. The reason why ZNS officers were deployed was because of corruption by the other officers. It was going to be very important to put ZNS with the police so that the police graduates and ZNS is withdrawn. That is better than exposing our military staff to be dealing with smuggling. At the end of the day, it is the police’s job and not ZNS. These people have done a good job because of their discipline but that is not their job. So, we should keep them with the police so that they see that this is how their colleagues are behaving.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other issue is about our retired soldiers. When our men and women retire, they are not looked after very well. Sometimes, it takes time for them to get their benefits. It is difficult for young people who want to join the defence force to make up their minds. This is because they look at how we treat these retirees. This is a noble job. If there is a country that is in trouble, we send these officers to a place that I am not allowed to mention. Sometimes, they go and die there.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, we have sent some of these people out of the country and they are performing very well. Some of our colleagues have died from that end and their relatives really struggle to get the benefits. This does not encourage our young people to take up this career. Like I have stated, I have taught at a military college for ten years. People must be attracted by the way soldiers behave. They should not treat this as a last resort. People should not only go for military training when they have failed to get other jobs. This is a noble profession which must be attractive to people. Over the years, we have had people joining the defence force after graduating at the university. So, we have quite an educated lot there. They are not just ordinary people. We require to motivate even those who want to join the defence force. The Minister of Defence and I will sit down and talk about how we can motivate our men and women …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: …in uniform since my background is about motivation. The minister has talked about the K3 billion that has been allocated to this ministry. So, at average, our three wings will have K1 billion each. This is not sufficient for our people.

 

Madam Chairperson, many of our soldiers live in compounds. It is difficult to call our men and women to mobilise in case a situation that I have been told not to mention happens.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, in the compounds, we cannot manage to mobilise soldiers easily. We need to build houses and clinics for them. The houses that have been built for the soldiers on the other end lack social amenities. The children used to jump on public transport to go to school. It is just recently when they were provided with one or two buses. Therefore, we need to provide them with houses, social amenities and transport. With those words and the advice which they have gladly accepted, I support the vote.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Ema debate ayo!

 

The First Chairperson: Mr Mung’andu, I request that you try to be brief, please.

 

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Chairperson, I will try to be brief.

 

Madam, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the policy statement that has been issued by the hon. Minister of Defence.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is important to support the Ministry of Defence for the reasons I will state. Scholars that have looked at comparative disciplines in terms of development have identified five salient features that contribute to national development. These are important for any country to develop, world over.

 

Madam Chairperson, the first of these features is discipline. If a country or its leaders are not disciplined, it cannot develop. I will try to relate these five features to the defence.

 

The second feature is quality leadership. You can have disciplined individuals, but if the leadership is not of high quality, you cannot develop.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: The third feature is right policies. You can have people who are disciplined and quality leadership, but if the policies are not right, you cannot develop.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: The fourth feature is good governance, which has been observed as an ingredient to a country moving forward.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: The fifth feature is peace and stability. If we do not have peace and stability as a country, we can never develop.

 

Now, look at the salient features that I have itemised. This country has disciplined leadership.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Mr Mung’andu: It is a fact. We have disciplined leadership. To start with, His Excellency the President is humble.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

 

Mr Mung’andu: When you are with him, you cannot believe that he is the Head of State.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Colleagues, if you have never interacted with him, find time to do so.

 

Mr Livune: We do not know him.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: In relation to defence, all countries that have developed have taped the skills from defence forces because of their discipline. The defence forces are not only for times of calamities like the other person suggested. I do not want to use the word war. There are many reasons why we have the defence forces. They are not only required in times of war. They are there for national development.

 

Madam Chairperson, as politicians, we can employ all the people from Luapula for example and all the ntolelefyes from Northern Province.

 

The First Chairperson: What did you say?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, ntolelefye is the tendency of getting what does not belong to you and say that you have just picked it.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mung’andu, that reference to the people of Northern Province is extremely unfair and unfortunate. Can you withdraw it because it will make part of the record of the Business of the House? The cousinship can be practiced outside the House.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, I was only trying to break the ice by joking with my traditional cousins. However, I withdraw it. No offence was intended.

 

Madam Chairperson, the reason third world countries remain so is that they entrust certain positions in the right individuals who come from wrong institutions. We can tap into the defence force because of the discipline and skills. The defence forces encompass many security wings, including the Office of the President which has almost all expertise to handle anything. It is only common to struggling countries that civilians head key parastatals. We need to tap the talent from the defence force. For example, the Governor of the Bank of Zambia must come from the defence force.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mung’andu: This is my point. The head of the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) must also come from the Office of the President. Let me just say that the Permanent Secretaries (PSs) in key ministries such Energy and Finance must come from the Office of the President.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: You do not trust yourselves? Kimasholi.

 

Mr Mung’andu: If we engage people from the defence force, we will tap into their discipline.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mung’andu: It will be very easy to detect any malady. One of the reasons for third world countries is the lack of honesty in the utilisation of resources. However, if we have personnel from the defence forces manning important offices, you can trust that it would be very difficult for a procurement officer to do something wrong because it would be a self-checking system.

 

Mr Mutale: Ikala panshi iwe naiwe.

 

Mr Chibanda: Nimweba ati ikala taleumfwa.

 

Mr Mung’andu: Certain developmental projects that require innovation can only be achieved if they are in the hands of the defence force.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have been talking about agriculture. We have been talking about maize ...

 

Hon. Member: Ikala iwe!

 

Mr Mung’andu: I am here to debate and not to sit, hon. Member. If you want to sit, you can continue to do so.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, the people of Chama South brought me here to talk on their behalf and this is what I am doing.

 

Madam Chairperson, I was giving an example of the Ministry of Agriculture. We have been talking about a lot of fertiliser, under the Farmer Input support Programme (FISP), being given to the people, but with little impact. Why not use the Zambia National Service (ZNS) for national strategic food reserve. We can subside it and give it enough fertiliser so that it produces maize specifically for strategic reserve for the country. We can remove subsidies for the rest. Since we have removed barriers, such as export bans, we can let them export. This will mean that our security wings like ZNS will not wait for certain calamities in order for them to work. They will be in actual production.

 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Chairperson, the Zambia Army has the best engineers. Some of the engineers at the Signals Department were our classmates from Hillcrest Secondary School up to university. They are the best engineers.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to commend the Road Development Agency (RDA), through the Ministry of Defence, for coming up with the idea that feeder roads should be done by ZNS. This is what we should have done from the beginning. If we empower the Zambia Army, it can construct the roads that we give to the Chinese. The money will remain within the country. So, it is important that in long term planning, we put our defence force at the centre of national development.

 

With these few remarks, I thank you, Madam.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Defence, are you able to wind up in eight minutes

 

Mr Chama: Yes, Madam Chairperson.

 

First all Dr Kalila, thank you for the support and I thank all the people that have debated this vote and supported the allocation to the Ministry of Defence. Most of the suggestions have been noted. Off course, Hon. Kalila said that most of the money amounting to 90 percent has gone towards personal emoluments. I think this is a structural issue which is historical in nature but the advice has been taken so that most of the equipment that we have is modernised and our men and women to have more equipment.

 

Brig. Gen. Sitwala has supported the budget and brought out very good suggestions. I know that he is a retired general and knows the challenges that the services are facing and your suggestions have been taken care of. Thank you for those observations that you made.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa, yes the African Union has resolved to silence the guns by the year 2020.I know that we are remaining with very few years before the stated year so it is quite a challenge considering what is happening on the continent of Africa but setting the target of 2020 is also good so that we work extra hard to silence the guns in Africa so that we can have peace and tranquillity in countries which have challenges with peace and unity.

 

More men and women to play a role in institutions investments. This is what we are trying to do. In my statement I have elaborated where ZAF has partnered with private sector through public private partnership. They have invested and are trying to make a contribution to make sure that the transformation agenda of the PF is realised by using men and women. For instance the ZNS have a lot of land where we a lobbying investors to partner with so that we utilise the land that we have are realise the potential that lies therein.

 

Men and women in uniform are disciplined and they can play a role in the construction of bridges. In other countries the defence forces have played a role the reconstruct bridges that have been washed away. We have a target to construct a lot of bridges across rivers and streams. We have soldiers who are engineers who can construct bridges given the resources.

 

I think all of us know that Mulungushi Textiles has been opened under the IDC who we are collaborating with to ensure that we revamp and start manufacturing military uniforms. It is quite surprising that fifty-two years after independence we still import military uniforms yet we have the capacity to manufacture them. Once we revamp Mulungushi Textiles and other textiles industries we can start manufacturing these uniforms locally. We do not need to import any more. I know that His Excellency the president is committed and the Government is committed that is why we have opened Mulungushi textiles so that we start manufacturing these uniforms locally.

 

Hon. Syakalima you are welcome to discuss issues so that we can learn from you so that we make sure that we revamp and give more impetus to the ministry so that it performs to the expectations of the Zambian people. The perception about ZAF it is just a perception. I think that ZAF has been playing a commendable job to ensure in making sure that places not accessible during the rainy season, the ZAF has been on board to make sure that people are repatriated. ZAF has been playing a key role in a number of areas and contributing to peace that we are enjoying as a nation. So, the perception is just that whether positive or negative.

 

The marine unit in Luapula Province is a new unit in Kawambwa. It needs more empowerment and resources to ensure that they perform to the best of their ability. That is why this Government is committed to the construction of a new barrack for this marine unit. Once we establish more of marine units and are empowered in terms of equipment and training they will be extended to other water bodies within the republic of Zambia including Kariba.

 

I would like to commend the ZNS for playing a key role in helping the Zambia Police Service to make sure that we curb issue of smuggling. You know Zambia has produced a lot of food than our surround eight neighbours who have food deficits. So, everyone wants to get maize from Zambia. It is quite a challenge to curb smuggling but the ZNS are equal to the task and have been supplementing the Zambia Police Series to make sure that the food is protected and food security is guaranteed.

 

Retired soldiers benefits has been a historical challenge that the ministry has been facing but we are committed to making sure that we dismantle the arrears. We will be discussing shortly with the ministry of Finance to make sure that we dismantle these arrears of our retired men and women within the period of four years. We are working on a programme to make sure that the men and women who retire are looked after properly and are given their benefits timely so that they do not become destitute.

 

Hon. Mung’andu has the acknowledged the discipline in the defence forces and he is pleading that probably the men and women because their discipline and character should be managing vital institutions like the Bank of Zambia…

 

Laughter

 

Mr Chama: … and other such institutions. We take note of that acknowledgement. I hope our men and women who have retired from active service can apply for positions in such institutions to bring on board the discipline acquired from the military.

 

Madam Chairperson, most of the suggestions have been well received for us to enhance the capability of our men and women in uniform to defend our nation. I want to thank all hon. Members for their contributions and support for the budget of the ministry of defence.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters – K181,510,541).

 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K34,809,091 and Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K42,976,881, what are these other emoluments which beat salaries for the officers?

 

Mr Chama: Are you asking on activity 005 or 001 or on both? Kindly repeat the question.

 

The First Chairperson: I think that the question is, she needs an explanation of activity 005 – other emoluments which seems to have a higher allocation than the one in activity 001 – salaries Division I.

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K34,809,091 is meant for salaries for personnel in Division I. The increase is due to the planned recruitment of medical personnel for the newly constructed medical facilities.

 

Madam, Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K42,976,881 is meant for allowances for defence attaches in missions abroad. The increase is due to the newly opened defence attaché offices in missions abroad.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4044, Activity 005 – Procurement of Uniforms – Nil. Did they buy enough uniforms for our men and women in the defence service this year that they do not intend to buy any next year?

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4044, Activity 005 – Procurement of Uniforms – Nil. The provision which caters for the procurement of uniforms for the defence service dropped due to limited resources. As you are aware, the hon. Minister of Finance has elaborated that we have limited resources. Therefore, for now, there is no provision for that component.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4007, Activity 011 – Outstanding Bills (Foreign) – Nil, and Activity 012 – Outstanding Bills (Local) – Nil. Does the ministry not owe anybody in this regard?

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4007, Activity 011 – Outstanding Bills (Foreign) – Nil, and Activity 012 – Outstanding Bills (Local) – Nil. The provision which caters for the payment of foreign bills dropped due to limited resources as earlier indicated.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 77/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 77/02 – (Ministry of Defence – Zambia Army – K1,398,522,733).

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4054, Activity 001 – Chaplaincy – K96,922. Why was the Zambia Army given less money and yet it undertakes a lot of activities?

 

Mr Chama: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4054, Activity 001 – Chaplaincy – K96,922. Of course, we would have allocated more money to this activity, but due to limited finances, we need to rationalise the available funds and allocate them accordingly.

 

Thank you, Madam.

 

Votes 77/02, 77/03, 77/04, 77/05, 77/06, 77/08, 77/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K43,607,277).

 

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Yaluma): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to present the 2017 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me begin by congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance for the well-thought through 2017 Budget aimed at achieving stability and economic recovery. My ministry being one of the critical sectors of the country is no doubt fundamental to achieving the goal of the 2017 Budget whose theme is, ‘restoring fiscal fitness for sustained inclusive growth and development’.

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia is endowed with a variety of minerals which if well managed can act as the engine for the development of a diversified and resilient economy. The undesirable vulnerability of our economy to external shocks is as a result of overdependence on copper. As a country, we have concentrated so much on copper, at the expense of other minerals, which can contribute to the growth of the mining sector and economy, at large. As the House may be aware, Zambia’s mining industry is susceptible to external shocks because almost all of the copper produced is meant for the export market.

 

Madam Chairperson, following the decline in copper prices in the last few years, the industry has not performed well even though copper production has increased. The increment has been marginal and below the target. Production increased from 708,259 tonnes in 2014 to 710,860 tonnes in 2015. At the end of the third quarter of 2016, copper production was 574,782 tonnes, being 8 percent higher than the 531,140 tonnes produced during the corresponding period in 2015. The projected annual production for 2016 is 746,000 tonnes. This increase in production is mainly as a result of the ramp up of production at Kalumbila Mines.

 

Madam Chairperson, despite the challenges arising from the declining metal prices and energy crisis, notable developments are taking place in the sector in form of continued expansion and upgrade programmes. The completion of these programmes will, in subsequent years, contribute to the increase in mineral production, employment creation and Government revenue as well as business opportunities.  

 

Madam Chairperson, the decrease in copper prices has been a wake-up call for the ministry to seriously shift focus from copper, as a major foreign exchange earner, to other minerals that can spur growth of other economic sectors. The minerals include gemstones and industrial minerals such as granite, talc, lime and gypsum, which are used for construction.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would now like to share with this august House the milestone accomplished in 2016, that will serve as stepping stone for sustained inclusive growth and development, in the mining sector. The major developments where in the following areas:

 

Geological Mapping and Resource Surveys

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has prioritised generation and provision of geological information in order to ensure continued growth of the mining sector. Availability of qualify geological information will help to unlock the mineral potential of the unmapped parts of the country and contribute to promotion of exploitation of non-traditional minerals that have potential to stimulate growth of other sectors, and hence, contribute to the achievement of diversification.

 

Therefore, geological mapping of areas in the Luapula and Northern Provinces continued with the support of the co-operating partners. Geological and geo-chemical mapping of parts of Kasama was concluded in April this year and maps and associated reports will be ready in early 2017.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry has been promoting exploration for oil and gas in the country. To this effect, issuance of petroleum exploration licences continues. The ministry issued seventeen petroleum exploration licences in 2011 and an additional nine in 2013. Fourteen of the licences that were issued in 2011 were cancelled in 2015 for non-performance and four were merged to create one sizeable block. Two more exploration licences were issued in 2016, bringing the total number of petroleum exploration licences issued to-date to twelve.

 

In addition, the process of reviewing the Petroleum Exploration and Production Act of 2008 is underway. The Act is being reviewed in order to improve Zambia’s attractiveness and to ensure that the country benefits from the sector, once discovery is made.

 

         Monitoring and Regulation of the Industry

 

Madam Chairperson, implementation of the Mineral Value Chain Monitoring Project, Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and the European Union (EU) supported Mineral Production Monitoring Project in the ministry, which is designed to strengthen the monitoring and regulation of the mining sector, continued in 2016. Both these projects are expected to enhance tax revenue collection through effective monitoring of mineral production and exports.

 

         Integrating Mining in National Development

 

Madam, implementation of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) supported One Year Preparatory Assistance Project for Mining Sector Capacity Development commenced in 2015. The objective of the project is to facilitate the formulation of a five-year programme to address structural problems in the mining sector in order to achieve goals of the Vision 2030. The programme will leverage the domestication of the African Mining Vision (AMV). The implementation of the programme is expected to integrate mining in the local economy, thereby maximising the sectors’ contribution to development of the country.

 

         Promotion of Gemstone Mining

 

Madam Chairperson, to enhance the contribution of mining to economic development, the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development decided to work on improving the performance of the gemstone mining sector, which has been characterised by low productivity. The majority of the players in the sector are Zambians whose operations are either at artisanal or small-scale mainly due to lack of capital.

 

Accordingly, the ministry commenced a programme to amalgamate individual gemstone plots in gemstone mining areas, beginning with Lufwanyama on the Copperbelt. A baseline survey of the area to establish the number of plots was concluded. The next stage will be to design a mechanism for attracting investment in the sector. The intention of this programme is to increase investment in the gemstone sector by creating reasonably bigger plots that will be viable for mining, both technically and economically.

 

Lufwanyama Gemstone area has a total of 408 mine plots and, of these, only three are large scale gemstone mines. These are Kagem Mining Limited, Grizzly Mining Zambia Limited and Miku Mines, while the remaining 405 belong to small-scale license holders.

 

         Curbing of Illegal Gold Mining and Trade

 

Madam Chairperson, illegal gold mining and trading activities are taking place in various parts of Zambia. Notable areas include Luano, in the Central Province, Vubwi in the Eastern Province and Rufunsa in the Lusaka Province. This gold is being smuggled out of the country by illegal dealers, mostly foreign nationals. The introduction of a mechanism to curb this vice will result in the reduction of illegal gold mining and trade and ensure that benefits accrue to the local communities and the nation at large.

 

One of the interventions that the Government has come up with is the introduction of the Gold Panning Certificate, under the 2015 Mines and Minerals Development Act, to formalise this illegal mining and trade in gold. A survey undertaken by the ministry in collaboration with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, established that there were approximately 500 panners producing about 24.5g in a week. Formalising the activity will contribute to creation of employment and generation of revenue to the Government.

 

        

 

Promotion of Exploitation of Development Minerals

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2015, Zambia won the bid to be the focus country in Southern African for the African Caribbean Pacific (ACP) European Union Development Mineral Programme. The ACP-EU Development Mineral Programme is a three year which involves Euro750 capacity building programme that aims to build the profile and improve the management of the industrial minerals, construction materials, dimension stones and semi-precious stones often referred to as neglected development minerals.

 

Madam, the focus of the programme includes:

 

1. building capacity for the miners through training and provision of small grants;

 

1. improving availability of geological information by producing maps and data bases and on the development minerals;

 

1. facilitating partnership, building and upgrading value chains; and

 

1.  acquisition of new technology by organising technology fairs and networking events.

 

 

 

Madam, the ministry will endevour to build on the achievement of the programme to ensure the continued growth of development mineral sub-sector.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry’s allocation in the 2017 Budget is K43,607,277, which will be applied to the prudent implementation of the following key programmes:

 

Geological Mapping

 

Madam Chairperson, the availability of geological information is key to the development of the mining sector and the diversification of the economy. Therefore, my ministry will expedite the geological mapping of the remaining parts of the country in order to unlock the mineral potential of the unmapped parts

 

Strengthening of Monitoring Mechanism for the Mining Industry

 

Madam, in order to strengthen the monitoring mechanism for the mining industry to ensure compliance to approve programmes of operation by industry, my ministry will continue strengthening the monitoring and audit of exploration, mining and processing operations, verification of mineral production, exports and production costs at the mines, and annual audits of the mined areas to establish a total reserves, ore depletion and developments taking place. This will compliment efforts by the mineral value chain monitoring project and the mineral production monitoring project aimed at enhancing revenue collecting from the industry.

 

Mine Safety, Health and Environment

 

Madam Chairperson, enforcement of safety, health and environment regulation is vital to reducing mine accidents and environment degradation as this will have implication on mine productivity resulting in reduced production. Therefore, in 2017, my ministry will intensify proactive inspection visits to the mines, equip the Mines Safety Department with necessary analytical facilities and equipment as well as collaborating with other institutions to ensure compliance to the law and also generate revenue the revenue.

 

Promotion of Development Minerals

 

Madam, in 2017, my ministry will focus promoting, organised mining of development of minerals which have the potential to contribute to job creation and growth of the other economic sectors and ultimately economic development. This is because the sector is dominated by Zambians and the minerals are used within the domestic economy. This programme will complement the three year ACP-EU funded development minerals project that is being implemented in Zambia.

 

Operationalisation of the Computerised Mining and Non-Mining Rights systems

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, my ministry will complete the development of a computerised on-line licensing system that will timely and speedily process mining and non-mining rights. This will attract more investment into the mining sectors and will increase revenue generation through license fees, areas charges and other statutory payments. The programme will include; survey of mine plots, development of on-line portal for application and payments, decetralisation of the system to region mining bureaus and software maintenance.

 

Development of Gemstone Sector

 

Madam, in effort to diversify the mining sector, my ministry will continue to implement measures that will focus on organising gemstone mining in such a way that it is significantly contributes to the economic development. My ministry will embark on amalgamation of existing plots into bigger plots, generate detailed geological information on the areas to enhance investment in the sector and increase production.

 

Madam Chairperson, in addition, my ministry will continue promoting local marketing of gemstones and will issue regulations to guide the sale of gemstones by both small and larger scale miners. The programme is expected to be completed by the end of the second quarter of 2017.

 

Formalisation of Both Small Scale Mining and Panning Activities

 

Madam, in an effort to promote diversification and improve small scale mining of gold, which mostly characterised by the illegal miners, my ministry will formalise the activities by introducing a trading mechanism. This will contribute to job creation and for the locals as well as revenue generation.

 

Madam Chairperson in conclusion, I wish to state that the budget the Ministry and Minerals Development is not enough to implement all that I have outlined. Therefore, the ministry will rely on the partnership with various stakeholders in order to implement some of the programmes. I, therefore, appeal to this august House to approve the 2017 Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry and I look forward to the debates.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, I would like thank you for allowing me to contribute to this debate.

 

Madam, I will not take much of the House’s time because I just want to contribute on the concerns of the economy of this country.

 

Madam, after listening to the hon. Minister’s policy statement, I realised that it is well detailed, however, I would just want to suggest or ask a few questions in my debated towards the ministry through you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Madam, according to the Global Development Network (GDN) Paper No. 43 of June, 2011, it made comparisons between Chile and Zambia regarding the production of copper. You will realise that between 1960 and 1970, Zambia and Chile were producing almost the same amounts of copper. I would just like to find out from the Ministry what has happened to our copper considering that we have large deposits in Zambia especially that in 2008, we were ranked the 5th country major producer of copper. I also want find out what the Government is doing because this seems to be the backbone of the economy of the county.

 

Madam, in terms of the transportation of copper, I do not know whether I am allowed to refer to the social media, where it is indicated that Zambia is losing billions of dollars through the transportation of our copper.

 

Madam, Chairperson, we have foreign companies that are transporting copper from Zambia to wherever the copper is going. Suffice to say that those foreign transporters are paid money, but this money is not coming to our transporters in Zambia. I would like the ministry to into that seriously if we are to improve the mines of this country.

 

Madam, if you look at the benefits of copper that is supposed to be a benefit to the nation, I do not think we have reached that level meanwhile, we are among the major producers. If you look you look at other countries like Peru, Russia, Canada, and Chile, Chile seems to be doing far much …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1255 hours until 1430 hours.

 

Promotion of Exploitation of Development Minerals

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2015, Zambia won the bid to be the focus country in Southern African for the African Caribbean Pacific (ACP) European Union Development Mineral Programme. The ACP-EU Development Mineral Programme is a three year which involves Euro750 capacity building programme that aims to build the profile and improve the management of the industrial minerals, construction materials, dimension stones and semi-precious stones often referred to as neglected development minerals.

 

Madam, the focus of the programme includes:

 

1. building capacity for the miners through training and provision of small grants;

 

1. improving availability of geological information by producing maps and data bases and on the development minerals;

 

1. facilitating partnership, building and upgrading value chains; and

 

1.  acquisition of new technology by organising technology fairs and networking events.

 

Madam, the ministry will endevour to build on the achievement of the programme to ensure the continued growth of development mineral sub-sector.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry’s allocation in the 2017 Budget is K43,607,277, which will be applied to the prudent implementation of the following key programmes:

 

Geological Mapping

 

Madam Chairperson, the availability of geological information is key to the development of the mining sector and the diversification of the economy. Therefore, my ministry will expedite the geological mapping of the remaining parts of the country in order to unlock the mineral potential of the unmapped parts

 

Strengthening of Monitoring Mechanism for the Mining Industry

 

Madam, in order to strengthen the monitoring mechanism for the mining industry to ensure compliance to approve programmes of operation by industry, my ministry will continue strengthening the monitoring and audit of exploration, mining and processing operations, verification of mineral production, exports and production costs at the mines, and annual audits of the mined areas to establish a total reserves, ore depletion and developments taking place. This will compliment efforts by the mineral value chain monitoring project and the mineral production monitoring project aimed at enhancing revenue collecting from the industry.

 

Mine Safety, Health and Environment

 

Madam Chairperson, enforcement of safety, health and environment regulation is vital to reducing mine accidents and environment degradation as this will have implication on mine productivity resulting in reduced production. Therefore, in 2017, my ministry will intensify proactive inspection visits to the mines, equip the Mines Safety Department with necessary analytical facilities and equipment as well as collaborating with other institutions to ensure compliance to the law and also generate revenue the revenue.

 

Promotion of Development Minerals

 

Madam, in 2017, my ministry will focus promoting, organised mining of development of minerals which have the potential to contribute to job creation and growth of the other economic sectors and ultimately economic development. This is because the sector is dominated by Zambians and the minerals are used within the domestic economy. This programme will complement the three year ACP-EU funded development minerals project that is being implemented in Zambia.

 

Operationalisation of the Computerised Mining and Non-Mining Rights systems

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, my ministry will complete the development of a computerised on-line licensing system that will timely and speedily process mining and non-mining rights. This will attract more investment into the mining sectors and will increase revenue generation through license fees, areas charges and other statutory payments. The programme will include; survey of mine plots, development of on-line portal for application and payments, decetralisation of the system to region mining bureaus and software maintenance.

 

Development of Gemstone Sector

 

Madam, in effort to diversify the mining sector, my ministry will continue to implement measures that will focus on organising gemstone mining in such a way that it is significantly contributes to the economic development. My ministry will embark on amalgamation of existing plots into bigger plots, generate detailed geological information on the areas to enhance investment in the sector and increase production.

 

Madam Chairperson, in addition, my ministry will continue promoting local marketing of gemstones and will issue regulations to guide the sale of gemstones by both small and larger scale miners. The programme is expected to be completed by the end of the second quarter of 2017.

 

Formalisation of Both Small Scale Mining and Panning Activities

 

Madam, in an effort to promote diversification and improve small scale mining of gold, which mostly characterised by the illegal miners, my ministry will formalise the activities by introducing a trading mechanism. This will contribute to job creation and for the locals as well as revenue generation.

 

Madam Chairperson in conclusion, I wish to state that the budget the Ministry and Minerals Development is not enough to implement all that I have outlined. Therefore, the ministry will rely on the partnership with various stakeholders in order to implement some of the programmes. I, therefore, appeal to this august House to approve the 2017 Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry and I look forward to the debates.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuta (Chienge): Madam Chairperson, I would like thank you for allowing me to contribute to this debate.

 

Madam, I will not take much of the House’s time because I just want to contribute on the concerns of the economy of this country.

 

Madam, after listening to the hon. Minister’s policy statement, I realised that it is well detailed, however, I would just want to suggest or ask a few questions in my debated towards the ministry through you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Madam, according to the Global Development Network (GDN) Paper No. 43 of June, 2011, it made comparisons between Chile and Zambia regarding the production of copper. You will realise that between 1960 and 1970, Zambia and Chile were producing almost the same amounts of copper. I would just like to find out from the Ministry what has happened to our copper considering that we have large deposits in Zambia especially that in 2008, we were ranked the 5th country major producer of copper. I also want find out what the Government is doing because this seems to be the backbone of the economy of the county.

 

Madam, in terms of the transportation of copper, I do not know whether I am allowed to refer to the social media, where it is indicated that Zambia is losing billions of dollars through the transportation of our copper.

 

Madam, Chairperson, we have foreign companies that are transporting copper from Zambia to wherever the copper is going. Suffice to say that those foreign transporters are paid money, but this money is not coming to our transporters in Zambia. I would like the ministry to into that seriously if we are to improve the mines of this country.

 

Madam, if you look at the benefits of copper that is supposed to be a benefit to the nation, I do not think we have reached that level meanwhile, we are among the major producers. If you look you look at other countries like Peru, Russia, Canada, and Chile, Chile seems to be doing far much …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1255 hours until 1430 hours.

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Ms Katuta: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was talking about Zambia being one of the largest copper producing countries in the world. I think it is ranked fifth in the world. I would like to urge the Government to seriously look into what is happening with our copper production, which is the backbone of the economy. I agree with the diversification of our economy into agriculture and other sectors, but at the moment we only have minerals to export outside in order to earn some revenue for the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also mentioned the transportation of copper, which is done by foreign transporters who are paid in foreign currency and they take this money to their accounts in Mauritius or other countries. In this regard, I feel we are being deprived of what belongs to us as Zambians. We have a lot of truckers in Zambia who can do that job and they would keep the money they are paid in Zambian banks. This would ensure that this money remains in Zambia and is used in our country.

 

Madam Chairperson, if we look at the damage that is done to our roads by the foreigner truckers carrying our copper, it is the Zambian people who are going to pay through taxes to maintain or repair the roads.  Meanwhile, the truckers who used these roads just paid a little bit of money on the toll gates, which cannot even repair the roads. I would, therefore, urge the Government to take this matter seriously.

 

Madam, if possible, the Government should immediately ban the transportation of copper by road and revamp the Tanzania Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA), whose railway line goes directly to the port in Dar-es-Salaam, Tanzania. The reason some stakeholders in the transport sector do not want TAZARA to be revamped is because they interested parties. We know who the owners are of some trucks from outside Zambia, like in Tanzania, that are involved in transporting our copper. When they are asked to come and talk about revamping TAZARA, they are hesitant because they know they will lose out in terms of business for their trucks.

 

If you check some of these trucks, they are marked GP, which stands for Gauteng, or MP, which is Mpumalanga. These are both South African towns where these trucks come from. The trucks from Tanzania are labeled TZ. All these trucks carry our copper and the owners are paid in foreign exchange (FOREX), which does not remain in Zambia.  I think it is about time the Government put its foot in the ground and said, “Enough is enough”.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to talk about mineral exploration. The Government should allocate money for mineral exploration in this country. We have got students from universities and some local companies which can be involved in this. It is about time Zambian companies started partnering with foreign companies to do the exploration of minerals. We have a lot of deposits and reserves of minerals in Zambia. It is not only copper, but, like in Luapula, we have cobalt, manganese, uranium and even gold. We are still suffering and Luapula is even ranked one of the poorest provinces in this country when we are sitting on money. Therefore, whenever the Government is preparing the National Budget, these things should be considered so that we can also have mines like other places, such as the North-Western Province.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to also talk about retired miners. In the past, miners used to retire with dignity. However, when they retire nowadays, they end up being almost destitute. Some go back to the villages, but they cannot cope with the life they are introduced to there. Consequently, most miners die when they retire. For those who go to the villages, there are even issues of being bewitched. They are not bewitched. It is just that they cannot cope with life in the village. Therefore, there is need to improve the retirement benefits of miners.

 

I grew up on the Copperbelt and when I was young, a miner would be given a wrist watch or bicycle. However, these incentives are no longer there. We do not even know how our copper is moving, especially from mines like Chambeshi. Therefore, we would like the Government to move in and make mining activities transparent to the public. The mines should declare the amount of copper they have taken out every financial year. We should know what has been paid for the minerals so that when miners retire, they know what should be paid to them.

 

Nowadays, I do not even hear of bonuses for the miners. All those things are long gone, but we see our copper being taken out of the country. Are the mining companies telling me that they are making losses? Like Thabo Mbeki said one time, if these foreign investors are making losses, what are they still doing in our country? So if they are not making any money, and I just have to say this, it is about time they left this country. Why should they tell our people that they are not making any money, but every year they are still in our country? Therefore, it is about time miners started getting their end of year bonuses.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would not want to take up more time, but I just want reiterate my sentiments on the issue of truckers. We have a lot of truckers in Zambia. Therefore, the Government must take this matter seriously and make sure that Zambian truckers are given business to transport goods in this country. There are intelligent Zambian truck drivers that can drive up to Durban, South Africa, Namibia or Tanzania without getting lost. So why should we have drivers from outside to come and carry our copper and other goods from here?

 

Interruptions

 

Ms Katuta: Madam, I plead that this matter is taken seriously. I hope that when we come back to Parliament for the next Sitting, we can enact a law to ensure that transportation of copper or any minerals from Zambia is done by Zambians and if possible, transported via rail line.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Members stood up.

 

The First Chairperson: I have a list of hon. Members to debate. There is Ms Katuta, who has just debated. There is also Mr Mukumbuta, Dr Musokotwane, Mr Mweetwa and Mr Chali for the Patriotic Front (PF). That is the list that I have and after that, the hon. Minister will wind up debate.

 

Mr Jamba: What about independent hon. Members? We have not been debating ever since.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Members, we had agreed. I said four hon. Members from my left, one from the right would debate this Vote and then the hon. Minister would wind up debate. If there is no independent hon. Member among the names I have mentioned, then I suggest that one of the four hon. Members can drop out, so that we accommodate an independent.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mukumbuta (Senanga Central): Madam Chairperson, I want to add the voice of the people of Senanga, and the Copperbelt where I lived.

 

Madam Chairperson, copper will remain the backbone of our economy. Zambia is the largest copper producing country in Africa. It contributes 6 per cent of copper produced in the world. In 1970, Zambia produced about 700,000 tonnes of copper. We were almost at par with Chile. However, we have seen a decline in copper production over the years. In 1998, copper production declined to about 255,000 tonnes. Therefore, we had no option apart from privatising the mining industry. As I am talking, about 70 per cent to 80 per cent of the mining industry is in private hands, and not local private hands, but foreign private hands. The price of copper is fine, but the investors who are mining the copper continue to cheat this country by saying that they are not doing fine in copper production  ...

 

The First Chairperson: Withdraw the word “Cheating.”

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw it and replace it with “Misleading” the Zambian people. We have continued to produce a lot of tonnes of copper, but Zambians are not benefiting enough from it. For instance, in 2010, about 820,000 tonnes of copper was produced and now we are targeting to produce about 1 million tonne of copper per annum. If we are going to produce 1 million tonne of copper per annum, we are going to be the third largest copper producing country in the world. Our mines have been privatised, but our people are not benefiting anything from copper apart from the little taxes the Government is getting from these mines. We, the people of Zambia own only 20 per cent of shares in the mining industry. It was going to be okay if 50 per cent of the mines were owned by Zambians because the price of copper is fine.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other problem I have seen in this country is over-dependence on copper, when we can diversify the mining industry by extracting other minerals apart from copper. In this country, we have gold, but people do not know this because the mining industry is in the hands of private people who we do not know. Gold is a precious mineral which was supposed to give this country a lot of revenue.

 

Now, let me talk of Jamesons minerals ...

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Gemstones, sorry.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mukumbuta: I know the word “Jameson” is more pronounced in the Patriotic Front (PF).

 

Hon. Members: Gemstones!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Let me talk about gemstones such as emeralds. Emeralds are mined in Lufwanyama. According to the hon. Minister, the emeralds are mined by local people. This is not true. When you go to Lufwanyama, you will find two largest emerald mines, Kagem Mining Limited and Grizzly Mining Limited. Who owns these mines? It is foreigners. Kagem Mining Limited is being run by a person from the United Kingdom (UK). Of course, he is being assisted by Indians. Grizzly Mining Limited is being run by a person from West Africa. So, Zambians are not benefiting enough from mining. Recently, Zambians, including Chief Nkana wanted to have a piece of the emerald mines. Chief Nkana grabbed a piece of land to start mining emeralds in his chiefdom. Emeralds are expensive minerals which are supposed to bring a lot of revenue to this country.

 

What is happening in Lufwanyama is heartbreaking. Most of the security guards working at the mines in that area are from India. Does it mean we do not have a labour force for security for our mines? Why are we getting security guards from India? An expatriate from India working as a security guard is getting a salary of about US$3,000 per month while a Zambian security guard is getting US$300. What a difference! Why should we have security guards from other countries when our own people can do that job? This Government needs to be serious. I urge the PF Government to go and check what is happening in Lufwanyama at Kagem Mining Limited. I am giving it just ninety days ...

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: ... to go and check what is happening there. I know that ninety days is part of the PF Government terminology. It should go and check what is happening there. It should go and check how Zambian people are being mistreated. Every simple work has gone to Indians yet we are getting only about 20 per cent to 25 per cent of the emeralds being mined. The price of emeralds cannot be compared to the price of copper. It is time for us to investigate what is happening at Kagem Mining Limited. I am sure that over-dependence on copper will not help us. Emeralds are good minerals which can give us a lot of income. I encourage this Government to empower more Zambians to mine emeralds. I know that it is difficult to mine them. However, it is the duty of the Government to empower Zambians so that they can mine these minerals. The Government should give Zambians equipment and loans so that they can mine emeralds which can contribute money to our Treasury instead of letting them just go to foreigners.

 

Madam Chairperson, the mining industry is doing fine, but it is not putting more effort into soft issues. Today, the mining industry is very quick to get copper from a place as deep as 100 km underground.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Within few hours, miners can get a good number of tonnes of copper. However, when a miner dies underground, it takes a mining company about seven days to get his body. 

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: So, when I look at the budget, hon. Minister, which you have allocated to safety issues, it implies that the K2.3 million is not enough. I had an impression that half of this budget was supposed to go to safety issues. This is because safety is vital in people’s lives. Just from the word “safety” which stands for “Stay Accident Free Every Time Yearly”, reminds us to stay safe all the time.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Now, if you do not invest in safety issues, a lot of people will be injured and there will be a lot of deaths. So, the more we lose people, the more we are losing money as well. But if we invest in safety issues then we will be able to save money.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thought I would share that point on how our people are being mistreated.

 

Madam, the other issue I wish to talk about is on local contractors that supply materials to the mines and how they are benefiting from these mines. Unfortunately, I wish to inform this House that they are not benefiting anything at all. When they supply their materials, they are paid last. Instead of giving priority to our local contractors so that they can benefit, they are considered last hence they are not benefiting anything.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to talk about social amenities which some of these mines are contributing to the local communities. I wish to give an example of Solwezi town which harbours about three huge mines. These are: Kalumbila, Lumwana and Kasanshi mines. The question is: What social amenities are the mines providing for the local communities there? Nothing, our people are not benefiting anything from these mines.

 

Mr Livune: Nothing!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Similarly, even the road from Chingola to Solwezi which we always talk about, is in a bad state that some of us who have businesses there fear to travel on it. We fear that bad road!

 

Mr Chileme: Aah! Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mukumbuta: And yet, this is where we are getting most of copper which is helping the economy of this country to grow.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is important that while we are talking of empowerment and creation of employment in this country, we must be alive to the fact that mining industries are a core sector to contribute to this cause. Unfortunately, they have let foreigners like Indians take over some of the jobs that are supposed to go to Zambians.

 

Therefore, I would implore the hon. Minister to take this point seriously because our people are suffering.

 

I will end my debate here.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Quality!

 

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to render my voice …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mweetwa: PF you are making noise!

 

… to the Vote on the Floor of this House. Madam, this afternoon, I intend to be brief and I will premise my debate on a few head notes.

 

Firstly, I will talk about employment in the mining industry; then I will also talk about the value the extractive industry is rendering to our people; I will also talk about exploration of possible minerals in Zambia for sustainable mining in Zambia; I am going to talk about the local content policy as to how local people interact with this industry for their benefit …

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: … as initial beneficiaries or owners of the land on which these mines sit. Lastly, I will also be able to talk about the declarations and taxation that this Government has provided and revenue it is collecting from the mines and may be possible loopholes.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Senanga has already alluded to one or two other things I could have spoken about in respect of employment in this sector. He has spoken about foreigners for instance, at Kagem, being employed as security guard.

 

In the same breath, I wish to talk about Zambian experts who are highly qualified. These are metallurgists who graduate from universities both locally and abroad who are well qualified. However, if you go to these mines, you find that the jobs they do and the salaries they get differ from their qualifications as well as that of expatriates. Expatriates with similar or less qualifications are paid more money than the local people. This is very serious and it requires Government to look into this issue. It should come up with a deliberate policy to ensure that it is equal work for equal pay. Unlike what is happening now where, Zambians who hold positions higher than those held by expatriates are paid far less than what those expatriates are being paid. I wish to remind you that we are no longer in a colonial state.

 

Madam Chairperson, the second point I wish to talk about is the relationship between the extractive industry as a wasting sector and the mineral endowment we have. The hon. Minister of Local Government, if he is here, will attest to the fact that this is a subject which he was very much interested in when he was Public Accounts Chairperson. There is need to try and see how we can get value for the mineral endowment that God gave us, as we are still mining from this wasting sector.

 

I am aware that civil society at international level have advocated for a long time, trying to ensure that the local community from where these minerals are mined should benefit unlike what is happening now, such that after the mining activities close, they are just left with deep holes, trenches, dams and open pits in their land. Meanwhile, the wealth that was contained therein has been taken away without having corresponding value to look at for the damage that has been done to their environment.

 

I am also aware that in the Ministry of Finance, there is an Instrument there which is trying to harmonise the relationship between the extractive sector and the value to the local people. This is the Extractive Industry Transparency Initiative, which is trying to promote the fact that mines owners should pay fair taxes to Government. Also, Government upon receipt of such taxes should also deliver services to the local people.

 

Madam Chairperson, the last time I read a report from this Instrument at global level, and Zambia had a chapter, was that the mines were able to demonstrate that they were paying their part to the Government, but Government is failing to show where it is taking that money.

 

In places like Solwezi, that is if you listen to the news every day, they are talking about bridges such as Kazemba Bridge being swept away, which should not be the case. It implies that the Government is paying lip service to the local areas where these minerals are being mined. I would urge the hon. Minister that we need to begin to pull up our socks.

 

Also, the relationship between you as a ministry and the mine owners should be checked. Although there is no legal binding agreement that these mines should put in their part of their corporate social responsibility, there is need for positive and progressive engagement with them to ensure that they come on board to help the communities from which they are harvesting so much money. Simply donating a twenty-six bus to the Zambia National Team should not be a cause to celebrate that the mines are doing their fair share of corporate social responsibility to the community.

 

For instance, for places like Solwezi, they should have built a modern hospital by now or even expand the existing one. Unfortunately, we are not seeing this because your ministry is failing to positively engage with these mines to ensure that they give back to the community. What I suspect is that the money that is supposed to go to the community is being diverted into the pockets of politicians. It is high time you began to prioritise the community.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Madam Chairperson, I get perplexed at how God could be so unfair to allow all the surrounding countries like Botswana, Angola and the Democratic Republic of Congo to have high value precious minerals like diamonds when we do not seem to have any. I was just discussing with Hon. Lungwangwa whether we really do not have these minerals or whether we just do not have a strategic mineral exploration mapping plan to determine whether we have them or not. For now we rely on foreigners to come and do explorations for us. The PF Government celebrates whenever a foreign company comes and says they want to explore for oil in the Western Province. The Government should have set money aside through a properly planned Budget to ensure that we develop local capacity to be able to do our own exploration.

 

Madam Chairperson, Angola is mining oil on the border with Zambia. Could that oil not percolate to the Zambian side so that we benefit or are we unable to detect these things because of the bad leadership of the PF?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mweetwa: Maybe if such minerals are discovered now this money would not be put to good use. These are some of the things we need to begin to look at seriously going forward. If the major mines that we have deplete our resources, bearing in mind that these are wasting assets, where do we go next? Does the hon. Minister even know? These are issues which we should discuss and find solutions to.

 

Madam Chairperson, what benefits do small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) derive from interacting with the big mining conglomerates in relation to local content policy? We see very little benefits arising from the mines at the moment. In the North-Western Province the local suppliers, who are supposed to supply consumables to these mines, are not given any space to do so. We have allowed the foreigners in this country to run mines and create laws that govern the way they want to do business in a land where we have a Government that should regulate how business should be conducted to benefit local people. The hon. Minister of Finance would attest to this, but he is not allowed to join my debate.

 

Madam Chairperson, all the people of North-Western Province are allowed to the supply to the big mines is stationary. They are not allowed to supply all the other consumables, which is where the large chunk of the money lies. The big contracts are the preserve of the mine owners’ fellow foreigners who supply products from outside the country. As a result, the money which was supposed to benefit the local people is kept outside the borders of this country. When that happens, the capacity to create the jobs the Government is talking about is reduced. These are the things that the hon. Minister needs to begin to address seriously.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is my belief that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is aware of all of this. Who is benefiting from all of this? Who is allowing all these things to happen? Why are Zambians not getting their fair share? Is money being sent to someone’s offshore account while the right beneficiaries are being denied?

 

Mr Syakalima: Tell us Minister of Mines!

 

Mr Mweetwa: These issues should be clarified to prevent me from beginning to formulate a hypothesis that some politician is benefitting.

 

Madam Chairperson, I will conclude by talking about the declaration of minerals grades. This was also included in the current Auditor-Generals Report. The ministry and the ZRA seem to have challenges in ensuring that the quantities of minerals that are declared at departure from the mines are the correct quantities and the right grades. I am aware, and I think the hon. Minister is also aware, of what is happening at the mines. Mineral ore is downgraded so that it attracts less tax. As a result, people are assuming that somebody in the Government is benefitting because they are aware of these things. Why are people being allowed to make false declarations?

 

Madam Chairperson, transporters are exporting more in terms of mineral quantity than what is declared on paper. These are issues that we want the hon. Minister to answer. We also would like to see proper synergy between the trained manpower of the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and the ZRA. At Solwezi Airport, for instance, there is no expert from the ministry to ensure that what is being declared is not gold, but copper. There is a strong belief that high grade gold is being hidden within the copper ores which we see being exported on trucks in the North-Western Province. These things have to be dealt with otherwise I will continue to hold the view that somebody is benefitting. If these loopholes are filled, we are going to increase the capacity of the Government to generate revenue. If we increase the capacity of the Government to generate revenue, the hon. Minister of Finance will reduce his appetite to contract commercial loans, concentrate on concessional borrowing and ensure that we limit the escalation of external debt.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I wind up, we will expect the hon. Minister to work closely with the Ministry of Finance to generate resources so that we stop this borrowing. In 2017, we want to know which loans the hon. Minister of Finance is going to contract so we can free ourselves of borrowing.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, in supporting the Budget, I thank you for the opportunity to debate and I thank the hon. Minister for the statement that he made.

 

Madam Chairperson, I agree with the hon. Minister that copper is at the core of our economy. When industry does well you see its effects in the lives of the Zambian people. A few years ago ordinary individuals were building houses almost everywhere while Civil Servants and the middle class were able to buy themselves cars and all types of consumer goods. You could see prosperity was rising. However, today, the opposite is happening. If teacher did not buy themselves a car in those days they should forget about it for the next five years because they will not be able to buy a car. Those who have not built before should forget about building, apart from a few business people.

 

Madam Chairlady, today banks are full of bad debts ...

 

Mr Mweetwa: Chair lady?

 

Laughter

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I apologise for that.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, today, most of the banks are full of bad debts because people are not able to pay back their loans. This is mainly due to lack of income. The source of all this tension is the fact that the mining sector has deteriorated. Most of the members in this House have been saying that it is time to diversify from copper to agriculture, tourism and manufacturing. This is a good move and no one can oppose it. My argument is why this Government wants to venture into things that they have not done before and at the same time, destroying the sector that they have managed very well for some time. My suggestion is that we should focus on improving the mining sector since we know it. We have the expertise.

 

Madam Chairperson, in fact, in countries that have managed to diversify, they have done so because they were able to raise revenues from the sectors that they were very good at. It was those revenues from the traditional sectors that allowed them to diversify. In Mauritius, they did not destroy the sugar industry. They grew the sugar industry and that is the one that gave them the money to diversify. In Rwanda and Ethiopia, they did not destroy the coffee industry. This is what we should be doing.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is responsible for the economic problems that have arisen in this country.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: These problems have come about due to the mismanagement of the mining sector.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mung’andu: Question!

 

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, from the mining sector, we can benefit in two ways.

 

Mr Mwale: Boma!

 

Dr Musokotwane: We can benefit if the price of copper has risen. There will more revenue to be gained. The second point is where we have the capacity to do something about how much the mining sector can produce. We cannot control copper prices because they are given by the markets. I have always emphasised this on the Floor of this House but the Government does not pay attention. That is in within their ability to control and manage.

 

Madam Chairperson, my colleague from Senanga said that in 2009, the production of copper which was at 750,000 metric tonnes in the 70s had only gone down to only 230,000 metric tonnes. It went down by less than half. How can we expect to be rich if production is low? Under the various Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Governments, friendly policies were put in place. Some people think that copper production started expanding from year 2000 onwards because of the price of copper. Copper production expanded because of the friendly policies that were in place during the MMD era. In 2009, we were producing 230,000 metric tonnes and by 2011, we were over 850,000 metric tonnes. We benefited from the price of copper that had improved and the production that had increased more than four times.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2013, before the PF came in power, the production of copper almost hit about 970, 000 metric tonnes. This was close to a million metric tonnes. This means that today, even with the lower prices of copper, we would still be making more money if production expanded. With the plans that the MMD left, we should have been producing about 2 million tonnes of copper. We know this was definitely going to happen because of the fact that the investments were done.

 

Madam Chairperson, Kansanshi Mining Plc, Lumwana Mining Company and Mopani Copper Mines were expanding. The problem is that this Government destroyed the copper mining industry in this country. Let me tell them how they destroyed it.

 

Madam Chairperson, this Government should tell us whether the money they collected from the mining sector, which took away the working capital of the mines has been returned through Value Added Tax (VAT). Have they returned it or they are still holding on to it? If they are still holding on to it, then personally, I doubt about this projection that we are making.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have the issue of the tax regime. We know that almost every year, there have been changes in the tax system in the mining sector. How does this Government expect new investors to have confidence to come and invest? I hope the pronouncement by the hon. Minister of Finance that this year, there will be stability in the mining sector taxation will hold. If it does not, then we should forget about the expansion of the mining industry. 

 

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about the high price of fuel. I was surprised when I heard people say that the Government is subsidising the mining sector on fuel prices. I would say that the mining sector were actually subsidising the Government. They told the Government not to buy fuel for them. They said they knew where to buy fuel at a cheaper price. The Government insisted that they were going to buy fuel for them. This Government is squeezing an industry at a time when it needs resources most.  In future, I hope that the issue of mining taxation is going to be stable.  I hope the issue of lowering costs is going to be dealt with. Finally, I expect that the issues of deporting Compliance Advisor Ombudsmen (CAO) and so forth will never happen.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me just briefly touch on three other items. The hon. Minister talked about petroleum in his debate and I would encourage him to go ahead with his idea. The trouble is the Government is marked time. The issues about petroleum and issuance of licences that the hon. Minister is talking about were dealt with around 2009 and 2010. It is now six years from the time when the President ordered that that should be done. I am wondering why this is being done now after such a long period of marking time. This is delaying development.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to touch on the issue of benefits to the mining areas.  It is very scandalous to find that mining areas such as Ndola rural and North Western Province end up getting nothing out of the money that they generate. We all know that the Chingola/Solwezi Road was totally ignored by the Government for five years. Currently, that road looks like a canal. We depend on the same mining companies who pay us taxes to repair the road. As we speak, this Government cannot point at anything of significance that it has done for the people of North-Western Province in the last five years. To be blunt with them, the people of North-Western Province compare them with a colonial Government. We learnt in our history classes that colonial Governments extracted surplus from the colonies to take the money somewhere else.

 

Madam Chairperson, today, they are seeing this Government in that same perspective and they are asking the question: ‘Why is it that our own Government of black people can behave like the colonialists did by taking so much value out of our province only to take it elsewhere.’ This is dangerous and I hope that going forward, something will be done not just for North-Western Province, but anywhere where mining or natural resource extraction takes place. We have to do something more so that people feel that there is something in it for them. Otherwise we may have situations like in Nigeria where people begin to sabotage infrastructure because there is nothing for them.

 

Finally, the issue of participation was raised by some colleagues in terms of orders and employment. I want to extend that to something that is much more significant. This country has a lot of mining professionals with vast experience in running mines as general managers, superintends and engineers. Is it not possible for your office to organise these people so that we have a group of Zambian people run a mine that we can point at and say that it is developed and owned by Zambians?

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Musokotwane: I do not prescribe to the idea of grabbing mines that belong to Indians or South Africans. Grabbing does not teach you anything. You learn by being able to do something for yourself. Develop a mine by Zambians and we are going to be very proud of that. I challenge the hon. Minister to organise all these former mine general managers, engineers and so forth so that we stop crying about foreigners owning mines. We should emulate South Africans. There are so many black people who own mines in South Africa. Some of them own mines here in Zambia. Why can we not do the same?

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chali (Nchanga): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add on my word to the Budget for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

 

Madam Chairperson, first and foremost, I would like to dwell a bit on the revenue which is supposed to be generated by the mining industry. I will, however, dwell mostly on the town where I come from and, thereafter, talk a bit on the general Budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to state from the outset that I support the Motion. However, I would like to remind the hon. Minister of Finance that he should give a second about the revenue envisaged to come from the mining industry. Why do I say so? I will give an example of what is happening currently at the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM).

 

Madam Chairperson, we are supposed to export copper in the cathode mode, but have given permission for it to be exported in the anode mode. Each truck that you see carrying copper for export is equivalent to us exporting instead of creating jobs where it is going to be refined.

 

Hon. Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chali: We should look into this very critically. This was supposed to be a short term arrangement, but I do not know when it is going to stop.

 

Madam Chairperson, secondly, we passed a law in 2015 which was couched to give the hon. Minister an option because there was use of the word ‘may.’ I thought the words ‘shall’ or ‘will’ should have been used. Allow me to refer to that part of the Statute in Part II, Section 5(11) of the Mines and Minerals Development Act No. 11 of 2015. It states:

 

“The Minister may attach the Director of Mines, Director of Mines Safety or Director of Geological Survey or any authorised officer to exploration, mining or mineral processing operations, border posts or mineral product trading centres in order to enforce the provisions of this Act.”

 

Madam Chairperson, the latest Auditor-General’s is telling us that this is non-existent. Nothing was picked up from all the four export points. We cannot blame the ministry because the action is optional. So, this should be strengthened.

 

Madam Chairperson, of late, measures have been taken with the coming in of the Mineral Value Chain Management Project. This is clearly telling us that this law will now be effected. However, it has been given to the Ministry of Finance which should work in liaison with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Once it is implemented, we will be able to gain something out of it.

 

Madam Chairperson, KCM has continued to declare losses. I fail to understand why this company makes losses. An audit to the Nchanga Underground Mine was done. The people of Nchanga are still crying to see that report. We were told that it was not economical to continue mining, but the people of Nchanga demand to see this report because, as I said in my maiden speech, we are able to round up mining engineers who are locally trained to continue with mining. This report has, however, not been made public. It would assist us if was made public and debated.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chali: Madam Chairperson, employees, suppliers and contractors of KCM have been reduced to beggars because they have not been paid for years and months. This is why I am saying that the shoes that Hon. Mutati is wearing are too large for me to fit in because the source of revenue is not guaranteed, especially KCM.  This is the way I see it.

 

Madam Chairperson, let us look at (VAT), for example. The Small and Medium Enterprises, (SMEs) that we are supposed to develop are not being paid and, therefore, are not paying VAT, the National Pensions Authority (NAPSA), and the Workers’ Compensation Fund. What they are receiving are summons to appear for failure to comply.

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Sing’ombe: It is dangerous.

 

Mr Chali: Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) is a very big company with a large scale mining licence and they are supposed to develop, mine, concentrate, refine and then export copper.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Katuka: Bwekeshapo apo!

 

Mr Chali: What do we see; KCM does not want to spend money on development.

 

Ms Katuka: Send them packing.

 

Mr Chali: Last week, two major contractors on mine development pulled out from the underground mine demanding to be paid. Now, once you demand to be paid, KCM will deregister you.

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chali: Madam Chairperson, as we speak, people of Nchanga are crying.

 

Ms Katuka: Natubatanfye!

 

Mr Chali: We are saying 70 percent of our foreign exchange earnings are from copper exports. The hon. Minister of Energy gave a ministerial statement where he told us that the subsidy on fuel was removed and we expect the same to happen to electricity tariffs. If I quoted him right, he said by 2017 the electricity tariff will be cost reflective. I would urge the mining industry to utilise the energy that will be made available judiciously because if you look at the three quarters of 2015 and the three quarters of 2016, we used less energy in 2016 to produce more copper but we used more energy in 2015 produce less copper.

 

Madam Chairperson, I can cite some figures which I have with me here, in 2015, we produced 531,163 tonnes when we had consumed 1658.6 mega watts. In 2016, we have produced 575,780 when we have only consumed 1329 mega watts. So, the energy that we have should be used on the core business and should be used prudently.

 

Madam Chairperson, the previous speakers, I think I am running out time, talked about the Extractive Industry Transparency Initiative (EITI), this is supposed to be the mouth piece for the people where mining is being conducted.

 

Ms Katuka: Yes!

 

Mr Chali: Madam Chairperson, in this year’s budget, there is a proposal of K3.9 million to support the EITI. If you go into our townships, or you talk to the Small and Medium Scale Entrepreneurs (SMEs) in the mine townships, they do not even know about this EITI so, please let us do more sensitisation about these EITIs.

 

Madam Chairperson, our late President, Michael Sata, may his soul rest in peace, came up with an initiative of supporting the Small Scale Mining Licence Holders by saying that let us form two companies Mabwe and Musenge, to try and assist the Small Scale Mining Licence Holders in terms of mining by giving them some loyalty and then Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) will make something out of it. I do not know if Mabwe has even done any project but it is not too late since those people are still holding on to their licences, we can still revisit the project and make a lot of money out of it because there will be something that will be coming out of their mining activities and we will be exporting copper which will contribute to the national coffers.

 

Ms Katuka: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chali: Madam Chairperson, development of ore reserves. Very little money has been put into prospecting especially by the same company that I was talking about, so no new ore reserves are being generated and now the plan is to start importing concentrates, treat them and then export. I have got a list of four workers; I can name them…

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: No, you may not mention their names.

 

Mr Chali: … who left on Sunday to go to India to go and learn how to treat copper concentrate with high ore levels. The plan is that when these workers come back, they will start treating the concentrates with high copper ore levels which will be imported.

 

Ms Katuka: Alale!

 

Mr Chali: We should look into this issue critically so that if it is true, of which I know it is because I have got the names of those workers who left on Sunday and they will come back after fourteen days.

 

Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mulusa indicated to debate.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister of National Development and Planning please sit down.

 

Mr Mulusa interjected.

 

The First Chairperson: I think it is in the best interest of the Government, especially, to pass this Budget.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: We agreed that there would be only one person to speak from the PF who has already spoken.

 

Mr Nkombo: He was not here.

 

The First Chairperson: It will not help if hon. Ministers insist on debating all or some of the votes. We are behind time. If we do not manage the time properly, we might find ourselves sitting after Christmas.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kambwili: It does not matter!

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kambwili: Ine nshakulaisako kanshi.

 

This is rubbish!

 

Mr Mulusa interjected.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister of National Development and Planning, I have ruled and I am not going to allow you to debate. If you have any points you wish delivered, pass them on to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, wind up debate within eight minutes.

 

Mr Yaluma: Madam Chairperson, I can see everybody is highly passionate…

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Yaluma: Madam Chairperson, I think it has been a highly passionate debate. I know all the people who have been debating have got this country at heart because of how they have come out to discuss the vote and openly give their views on how we should improve our own endowed resources. Ms Katuka was so out coming and talked about what has happened to Zambia’s mining industry after being at par with Chile at one time.

 

Madam Chairperson, yes indeed we were at par with Chile, at one time. We were number one for a short period of time and then Chile came in and overtook us. What happened was we managed that period of mining under private hands. From the time I knew about mining that is in the fifties up until 1975, when we started thinking of nationalisation, we had about 775,000 tonnes of production at the peak during the first privatisation phase. The performance declined for quite some time until the 1980s and that was at the time we took over the running of the mining industry. Under the private hands, the production of copper at its peak was 750,000 tonnes. However, when we took over, as Hon. Musokotwane said, it dropped to merely 1,000 tonnes per year. Therefore, we had no option, but to come up with means of revamping the mining industry. In 2001, we privatised the mines and there was a distinct improvement in the performance. In 2015, we produced 750,000 tonnes of copper which we had pegged at during the first privatisation. So, purely, the production of copper went down because of the poor management of the mining industry by the Zambians. We learnt from it and saw a growing production pattern which has been disrupted by the copper prices. Hon. Mukumbuta talked about producing 1 million tonnes of copper and we could have reached the target of 1.5 million tonnes by the end of 2015. Alas, we could not achieve that because of the low prices of copper.

                                           

Madam Chairperson, there was a concern on the transportation of copper. In view of the escalating prices of fuel, it cannot be transported using the road network. However, we have been using the road network and the Great North Road that leads to Tanzania has been rehabilitated four times or so in the past ten years because the trucks that transport copper damage the roads. Therefore, the best way to transport copper is through the Tanzania/Zambia (TAZARA) railway line. However, it has not been rehabilitated due to some differences between the Zambian and Tanzanian Governments. The President was recently in Tanzania and they have reached a conclusion to rehabilitate the TAZARA railway line and that will improve our revenue base.

                                                                                                                           

Madam Chairperson, we need to benefit from the mining industry and as I speak, we are trying to enforce a law to ensure that the country benefits from copper production and we have since talked to the mining companies. As to how the Zambians will benefit from the mining industry, if we compare the 1995 and 2013 mining policies, the 2013 mining policy addresses the issue regarding the empowering of Zambians in the mining industry. It allows Zambians to participate in the mining value chain from prospecting, exploration, mining, processing and marketing, and to have equal opportunities with the incoming investors. However, the major challenge is funding. We all know that the conservative banks in our country will never fund a Zambian. However, the Government has come up with a solution and they will guarantee funding for any team of Zambian experts who once worked for the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines – Investment Holding (ZCCM-IH) or those who want to start a mining company as long as they meet the requirements. Therefore, that is a step in the right direction.

                                                                                                                                  

Madam Chairperson, I concur with the hon. Members of Parliament that no Zambian has ever benefitted sufficiently from the mining industry. Like they said, the old guard who worked in the mines only got a watch. However, our people should participate beyond employment. They should get involved in mining activities and follow the route of some South Africans who have succeeded like Motsepe, Ramaphosa and Tokyo Sexwale.

 

Madam Chairperson, concerning the transportation of copper from here to Tanzania, the Tanzanians are very difficult because they recommend specific type of axle vehicles used to transport goods. When the hon. Minister of Communication and Transport gets into an understanding with the authorities in Tanzania and they nullify that, then Zambians will start transporting goods to Tanzania. However, we transport copper to the southern port using the South Africa route.

 

Madam Chairperson, mining is in the private hands and I do not think we are at a position to nationalise the mines. However, we are trying to ensure that Zambians benefit from gemstone mining. That is why in my speech I talked about creating bigger emerald plots because some of them are very small and not viable for investment. So, we are trying to regroup them so they can form a co-operative. That way, we can have one big chunk and we can send geologists to explore the area so that we have data for investors to help the local owners with mining licenses to enhance investment. Therefore, we are supporting the small scale mining firms. I think the hon. Minister of Finance alluded to that in his presentation and money has been set aside to support the Small and Medium-sized Enterprises (SMEs) with mining licenses.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I said in my presentation, Lufwanyama gemstone area has a total of 408 mine plots. Out of these, only three mines are successful while the remaining 405 belong to Zambians who cannot access capital to develop them. Only the giant mines that include Miku, Grizzly and Kagem Mines which are large scale export the emeralds and even participate in auctions. However, we are trying to help our people so that they can start engaging in mining activities. That way, they will join in the auctions and sell the emeralds. Therefore, as Government, we are also concerned and we share the same feelings.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Government has 25 per cent shares in Kagem Mine and at one time it was owned by Indians who had a bad practice of bringing in security guards and other personnel to work on the mine. We want to change this. We want to ensure that our people in Lufwanyama are employed as security guards. So, we are seriously working towards this and, before long, you will see the change in the profiling of the employment pattern in Lufwanyama. So please, bear with us because we want the same thing. We will ensure that those people mining at Lufwanyama do the best that they can do.

 

Madam Chairperson, safety is a serious issue. We neither condone any deaths nor lost-time injuries (LTIs) in the mines. In order for our people to increase productivity, they have to perform without any injuries or deaths. The past three years have been very painful for my ministry. We lost many lives and it was the worst we have ever had. Many families lost their loved ones and sources of livelihood.  

 

Madam Chairperson, we have started revoking licences of mining companies that do not religiously adhere to safety regulations. We are telling the workers in the mines not to work on sites that are not safe. They must refuse and pull out and no one will punish them for the action because their lives need to be secured. They have loved ones to look after and children to raise. So, we are not tolerating any poor performance in safety.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Yaluma: We will not tolerate it. If it means revoking the licence, we shall do so. We will look at the pattern and if the trend is growing, we will revoke the licence. 

 

Madam Chairperson, most of what Hon. Mweetwa said was mentioned by Hon. Mukumbuta, and I think that I covered most of the issues. I would like to assure him, however, …

 

Mr Ngulube: He is not here!

 

Mr Yaluma: Oh, he has left.

 

I would like to assure the hon. Member for Choma Central that we will do the best that we can to ensure that we allow the Local Content Law to apply to all the mining companies so that Zambian people can benefit.

 

Hon. Musokotwane, we have started refunding the Value Added Tax (VAT) to the mines. This is our second year of doing this so it is not a serious issue with the mines. We want to ensure that the tax regime is as stable as possible to allow the people that are coming in to plan their investments in this country.

 

Finally, Hon. Chabi was quite vocal. Since my time is short, I think that we should sit down as colleagues and look some of the issues that you raised. You have a wealth of information which will help me to manage this ministry effectively. So please, you are welcome to discuss these matters further at my office.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Votes 14/01 and 14/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 14/03 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Mines Safety Department – K2,350,677).

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on the departmental total – K2,350,677. In 2016 …

 

The First Chairperson: What page, Hon. Mukumbuta?

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Page 137, Madam. I would like clarification on the departmental total.

 

The First Chairperson: What is your question?

Votes 14/03, 14/04 and 14/07 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

 

VOTE 85 – (Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources – K192,213,264). 

 

 The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Ms Kapata): Madam Chairperson, allow me to join others, who spoke before me, in passing my sincere condolences to the family of the late Hon. Mukondo Lungu. They have lost a dear husband, father and grandfather, may his soul rest in peace.

 

Madam Chairperson, having said this, I thank you for availing me this opportunity to address this august House on my ministry’s estimates of expenditure for 2017.  I wish to state that the programmes that are outlined herein are prioritised in line with Zambia’s Vision 2030, the Patriotic Front’s (PF’s) manifesto of 2016 to 2021, lessons learned during the implementation of the revised Sixth National Development Plan (6th NDP) and the spirit behind the Seventh National Development Plan (7th NDP), where the overspill goal is to create a diverse and resilient economy for sustained growth and socio-economic development.

 

Madam Chairperson, since most of the economic and social activities take place on land, and make use of natural resources, my ministry is at the centre of the country’s development agenda and has set forth its Mission Statement, which is:

 

“To administer and manage land and natural resources in a transparent and sustainable manner in order to contribute to socio-economic development.”

 

Therefore, the programmes in the 2017 budget are aimed at fulfilling the ministry’s Mission Statement and achieving the set objectives of ensuring equitable access to land and sustainable natural resources management.

 

Madam Chairperson, in my address to this august House, I will give a review of my ministry’s performance in 2016 and follow-up with a brief on the major programmes and  activities that have been lined up for 2017.

 

Review of Performance in 2016

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, my ministry was allocated a total of K230,931,391 for various programmes and activities. With the funding allocated, the ministry was able to implement the following programmes and activities:

 

Policy Formulation and Legislative Reforms Development

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to ensure that there is policy frame work for land management and administration, my ministry commenced the process of reviewing the Draft Land Policy of 2006. A wide range of stakeholder such traditional leaders, civil society, special interest groups and ordinary citizens amongst others were engaged in consultations in order to seek their views and solicit their buy-in into the land policy This was to ensure that the interest of the citizenry are incorporated in the final land policy.

 

Madam, my ministry is committed to finalising the National Land Policy as soon as possible because a comprehensive land policy shall contribute to good governance in land management and administration.

 

National Land Audit Programme    

 

 Madam Chairperson, the National Land Audit Programme was allocated and amount of K28 Million in the 2016 Budget. From the allocation, the ministry engaged a contractor to undertake a National Spatial Data Infrastructure (NSDI).

 

Component of the Land Audit Programme

 

Madam Chairperson, the component involves the acquisition and the processing of aerial photographs and satellite imagery the whole country. It also involves the development and the establishment of spatial geo-data base, Geographical Information Systems (GIS), Portal and the NSDI itself. The NSDI will also provide the geo-information base that will support the Government to improve planning and make informed decisions.

 

Madam, I wish to inform this august House that the NSDI is part of an e-Government system which will provide geospatial data sharing throughout all levels of Government, private and non-profit sectors. The NSDI will therefore enhance the availability and access to an up to date spatial data to guide planning, policy, investment, management, monitoring and evaluation in the country.

 

Madam, the desire of my ministry was to complete the NSDI component of the land audit this year. However, it will not be possible due to financial constraints.  Despite the financial challenges, my ministry was able to cover a total of 379,200 sq. km, which is about 50 per cent of the total mass surface of the country under the aerial photography segment of the programme. Under the same segment, the ministry succeeded to establish to establish 138,162 pre and post flight ground control points respectively.

 

Madam Chairperson, the House may wish to note that the overall objective of the National Land Audit Programme is to investigate and compile a comprehensive, accurate and reliable data base of all land parcels in Zambia in order to bring out key statistics of land ownership as well as land use in the country. There is, therefore, need to ensure that a steady flow of resources is made available to the project so that it is complete in 2017.

 

National Titling Programme

 

Madam Chairperson, in the 2016 Budget, the National Land Titling Programme had a provision of K11,669,814 out of which K5,160,464 was actually released from the Treasury. From this allocation, my ministry engaged twenty-nine private surveyors to work with the ministry and carry out survey works on 8,700 properties in the settlement areas spread across the country. In terms of achievement, 2,365 properties were surveyed.

 

Production of Certificate of Title

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, my ministry targeted to issue 10,000 certificates of title. May I be allowed to point out that this programme was part of the ministry’s annual work plan for 2016 and is not under the auspices of the National Land Titling, which is very specific and deliberate programme. The ministry has been able to issue 10,965 certificates of title under the 2016 plan for the Land and Deeds Legislation Department.

 

Infrastructure Development

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, a total K2,500,000 was set aside for infrastructure development. A of total K2,388,468 was actually released. K187,690 was spent on the rehabilitation of the Sesheke Forest Office while the Customer Service Centre and the Revenue Hall in Ndola were rehabilitated at a cost of K499,884. K1,700,924 was also spent towards the construction of a library at the Zambia Forest College in Kitwe.

 

Land Development Fund

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry continues to disburse funds under Land Development Fund

(LDF) particularly to newly created districts to enable them open up rural areas for development. By the end of November, 2016, K8.2 million had been disbursed to the fifteen local authorities for works such as surveying of plots, road construction and installation of water reticulation systems.

 

International Boundaries

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia/Mozambique Densification of the entire 556 km international boundary on land was completed in 2015. What remains to be done is field, annotation, map and database harmonisation and the printing of the final boundary maps as well as survey or demarcation of the water boundary on the Luangwa River. In order to make progress on this assignment, the Zambia/Mozambique Joint Survey Team met in Chilanga District, Zambia in May, 2016 and agreed on the work plan and budget for the remaining works to be undertaken.

 

Natural Resources Management

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to establish a coordinated national response to climate change and allow the country to grow in a more climate resilient and sustainable manner, my ministry, in collaboration with other stakeholders, finalised the development of the National Policy on Climate Change. The policy was adopted by Cabinet at its eighth meeting held on 26th April, 2016.

 

My ministry also facilitated the signing and ratification of the Paris Agreement on Climate Change. The agreement was signed by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, on 20th November, 2016 in New York. As you may be aware, the ratification of the Paris Agreement was approved by this august House on 10th November, 2016.

 

Forestry Development

 

Madam Chairperson, in order to operationalise the Forest Act No. 4 of 2015, my ministry, working with the Ministry of Justice, finalised the Forest Concession Licence Regulations. This august House may wish to know that the Forestry Department oversees the management of 421 forest reserves spread across the country. However, most of the forest reserves have been affected by encroachment and illegal harvesting of timber and wood for charcoal. One of the major challenges has been inadequate staffing to enforce the Forest Act. In order to address this challenge, my ministry has in 2016 recruited twenty-three forest guards to improve forest protection.

 

Outlook for 2017

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministerial budget ceiling for 2017 stands at K192,213,264, out of which K64,577,745 is donor contribution. This represents a 17 per cent reduction from the 2016 allocation. From this allocation, the ministry intendeds to undertake the following major programmes:

 

Revenue Collection

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry has projected to raise a total of K897,604,575 in 2017. It is, therefore, important that the ministry is supported in this effort to raise revenue through disbursement of funds under appropriation-in-aid. In 2017, my ministry intends to improve its revenue collection capacity through interventions such as investing in technologies and initiatives that will provide for a wider array of payment options by clients for the services provided by the ministry, proactively engaging and alerting clients on their bill as well as improving property records management so that all possible revenue sources are captured and accounted for.

 

National Land Audit Programme

 

Madam Chairperson, the National Land Audit Programme, which is a long term nationwide programme from 2014 to 2021, shall continue to be implemented in 2017. The programme has been allocated a total of K28 million. This amount will go a long way in finalising the National Spatial Data Infrastructure, thereby allowing all levels of the Government and private sector access reliable and up to date geo-information, which will enhance planning and decision making for sustainable socio-economic development.

 

National Land Titling Programme

 

Madam Chairperson, with a budget allocation for the National Land Titling Programme of K11,665,814, my ministry intends to scale up activities under this programme. The target is to complete surveys …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

 Chair]

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Chairperson, just before business was suspended, I was saying that the target under the National Land Titling Programme is to complete surveys of 10,000 properties in resettlement areas and about 10,000 properties in Lusaka Province by the end of 2017.

 

Afforestation and Agro-forestry

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry has realigned priorities and the key focus for the Forestry Department in 2017 will be skewed towards the Afforestation and Agro-forestry Programme. This programme is more encompassing and covers plantation establishment as well as promotion of natural regeneration of forest areas.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry shall continue to support national tree planting by supporting plantation promotion and expansion in the provinces so as to contribute to socio-economic development and job creation. Through these programmes, the ministry will strive to maintain and sustain the eleven commercial forestry nurseries that have been established in the ten provinces and at the forestry research centre in Kitwe. Additionally, the programme will manage the 570 ha of plantations established in provinces during the 2012/2013 tree planning period. The regional and local supply plantation development in all the ten provinces will also be supported under this programme. The target is to ensure that 20 ha of forests are planted annually in each district.

 

Madam Chairperson, the agro-forest and afforestation programme will also support the expansion of rubber plantations in Kawambwa and Nchelenge districts of Luapula Province. In the Western Province, support in form of raising seedlings for the cashew nut plantations shall continue to be implemented.

 

Land Development Fund (LDF)

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, K28 million has been allocated to the LDF. This provision will enable the ministry continue to support the local authorities, especially in the newly created districts to open new areas for development. This shall attract individuals and corporate entities to acquire and develop properties which will translate in revenue for the Government and local authorities in form of ground rates and other fees and charges.

 

Infrastructure Development

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, the ministry shall focus on completing outstanding infrastructure development projects from 2016. Any new infrastructure works that may be conceived or were previously planned for, but not implemented will be considered to be financed through Public Private Partnership (PPP) arrangements.

 

International Boundaries

 

Madam Chairperson, Zambia has eight international boundaries. The focus for 2017 shall be:

 

1. completion of mapping activities for Zambia/Malawi and Zambia/Mozambique international boundaries;

 

1. densification of the 20 km stretch of the Zambia/Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) border in Chililabombwe District; and

 

1. densification of the 39 km stretch of Zambia/Tanzania border around Nakonde and Tunduma;

 

 

Zambia Integrated Land Management Information System (ZILMIS)

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, my ministry will continue to consolidate ZILMIS as a tool for land administration. Additionally, features such as electronic signatures to support mass production of certificates of title, interfacing with other institutions such as the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), National Registration Office, Patents and Companies Registration Agency (PACRA) and banks will be incorporated to enhance service delivery. In addition, putting in place facilities for mobile payments, electronic payments and other multiple information communication technology solutions for revenue collection shall be addressed.

 

Madam Chairperson, Article 233 of the Constitution (Amendment) Act No. 2 of 2016 has provided for the establishment of the Lands Commission. As such, in 2017, my ministry shall prioritise the operationalisation of the Lands Commission after the finalisation and enactment of the Lands Commission Bill.

 

Creation of Climate Change Department

 

Madam Chairperson, following the approval of the national policy on climate change in April 2016, the ministry is expected to provide for the creation of the Climate Change Department in 2017 which shall be responsible for coordinating as well as monitoring the implementation aspects of the climate change policy.

 

Public Private Partnerships (PPP)

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry is fully cognisant of the constraints of the national Treasury and shall therefore pursue the PPP option to finance a number of programmes. This shall be conducted in close consultation with the relevant Government institutions responsible for supervising and providing oversight over such arrangements.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to reiterate that my ministry is determined to administer land in a transparent, equitable and sustainable manner. In pesant of that goal, ...

 

Hon. Nkombo: Pursuit!

 

Ms Kapata: Aah Iwe! Ichisungu is my second mother tongue.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kapata: ... my ministry will develop and implement policies, legislation and systems that will improve the governance, land use and planning sustainable management and administration of land and natural resources. I therefore, wish to underscore the immense potential that my ministry has in revenue generation for the Treasury. I therefore, wish to appeal to this august House to support the planned revenue generation measures presented in my ministry.

 

With these remarks, I urge all hon. Members of this august House to support the estimates for the programmes in the 2017 budget for my ministry.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba (Mwenbezhi): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on this Vote.

 

From the onset, I wish to support the budget for the Ministry of Lands. I would also like to appeal to the hon. Minister that when we stand and speak on various issues, it does not mean that we are against you or anything. We just want to speak our minds pertaining to your ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, one thing I have noted which is eminent with the Ministry of Lands is that this ministry is like a Chinese mud pond.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Jamba: Where if a child wants to catch fish, he dilutes the water so that the fish can come on top.

 

Normally, when you go to the Ministry of Lands on Tuesdays, I just want to lay the ground properly, you will note that the people who go to see the Commissioner of Lands are more than the people who want to see the President at State House. The question is: Why is it that the Commissioner at the Ministry of Lands has got more powers that everyone in the whole country has to go and queue up so that they can see him at the same time?

 

Mr Mukumbuta: Commissioner of Lands!

 

Mr Jamba: Yes the commissioner and not the minister.

 

Now, what I am trying to say is that as we approve this budget, hon. Minister, I would advise you to come up with a deliberate policy so that land issues could be dealt with in provinces by having a commissioner in each province …

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Jamba: … in order to reduce people congesting the Ministry of Lands. Every morning, people go to this ministry to see the Commissioner of Lands. In the process, they are dubbed by unsuspecting workers who claim that they have the files and can perform the work of the Commissioner. This move makes files miss at the ministry. When someone wants to follow up any matter, they find that the file is missing. This is because there are too many people handling the files.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to talk about some of the individual departments in the Ministry of Lands especially the one that deals with geospatial data, the National Spatial Data Infrastructure (NSDI) Department. You cannot use geospatial data through mapping by flight, then three years later you decide to bring it for planning. You cannot use it. As we are talking now, the forest is being deforested at alarming rates such that when you fly a plane over the forestry today, what it will pick as a forest will be bare land after a year. How do you plan like that?

 

Can we be efficient in geospatial data so that we control this? These controls we are making would help the Government plan properly.

 

Mr Ngulube: In conclusion!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: Let me quickly talk about the ground controls. The ministry is supposed to carry out these ground controls in conjunction with the geospatial data. However, the problem the ministry is facing is that the surveyors, who are supposed to be examining these jobs done by private surveyors, are instead the ones going out doing ground controls for two months. Leaving a vacuum and if someone goes there to follow up a job, they find that the surveyors are all out hence leaving jobs pending.

 

Madam, I have also noted that there is an allocation of salaries for workers. I do not know whether you are going to increase the number of surveyors by employing more so that these things can be taken care of.

 

Mr Ngulube: There are salaries!

 

Mr Jamba: I cannot answer to some of these people who are not learned.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the deeds …

 

Dr Kambwili: Umwaiche ale eaba tutwa lawyer ati he is not learned!

 

Mr Jamba: … section where title deeds are processed. Madam, we have a situation where some people who, when they submit their diagrams and applications for title today, within one week or less than a week, their titles are out. And yet some people have been queuing for these titles deeds for more than three years.

 

I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to clean up that ministry because it is a mud pond. You cannot have a situation where people have been going to the ministry for over two years seeking a title deed. Nifuna title or I want a title, and yet they are not given that title. Meanwhile, someone else comes for the same and within two days he or she is given a title deed.

I hope that this ministry has no cartels in which some surveying company is connected to the commissioner who is also connected to a real estate agent. What happens is that, a surveyor does a job and takes it to the real estate agent …

 

The Chairperson: Mr Jamba, can you substantiate all these allegations that you are making? I am sure you cannot. Do not talk about that if you cannot substantiate.

 

Mr Jamba: Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I will not dwell so much on that I will specifically talk to the hon. Minister in her office. I am a surveyor and I know what is happening.

 

Dr Kambwili: Aah naiwe walelya!

 

Mr Jamba: Eeh!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: Thank you

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson what I am saying here is that the process of getting title deeds must be shortened. We do not want a process that takes too long to develop title deeds so that you can make revenue for your Government. A title deed is taking two years to be processed. What type of a title is it? Yet others are getting it so quickly.

 

Let me quickly talk about the Surveying Department and allow me to put it this way, there is no way the Bank of Zambia which is the Central can hold accounts for individuals. Instead of this ministry concentrating on monitoring the people who are doing surveys like the private surveyors as to whether they are doing the correct job, the Survey Department is busy also running around with the private surveyors doing private jobs.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes!

 

Mr Jamba: They are supposed to be in the offices examining the jobs which are being brought by private surveyors.

 

Madam Chairperson, this prompts me to talk about the Survey Act and I would like to inform the hon. Minister, if she does not know that all the surveyors who are working in Zambia are using an illegal instrument.

 

Mr Ngulube: Ulula!

 

Mr Jamba: If you read the Survey Act it will tell you that a surveyor shall use a theodolite instrument and tracing paper for drafting. However, people nowadays are using the Global Positioning System (GPS). These GPS are not mentioned in the Survey Act. They are not there and so it is unconstitutional to use them. For this reason, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister that there is need for a new Survey Act to be enacted by this House, …

 

Dr Kambwili: To be improved!

 

Mr Jamba: … so that we see an improvement in that area.

 

Madam Chairperson, we cannot afford to be using an Act which is archaic. That archaic it cannot be used and it cannot be used.

 

Another point I would like to mention that is in the Survey Act is that for one to be a registered surveyor, they do not need to go to the university, if you do not know hon. Minister

 

Mr Ngulube: So how did you become learned?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: You can be attached to a surveyor, work with him and he will monitor you for a period of time. After being examined, he will give you a certificate.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Jamba: We need …

 

You are disturbing me you unlearned people!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: Yes, shut up Tutwa!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Ngulube: Jamba nwako amenshi!

 

Dr Kambwili: Nwa amenshi mwaiche!

 

Mr Jamba: Leteni!

 

Mr Jamba drank some water.

 

Dr Kambwili: Tekanya mwaiche!

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba: Do not worry I know the time.

 

Hon. Minister, …

 

Hon. Members: The Chairperson!

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, the Survey Act is obsolete. That law needs to be changed so it can include the new technology and the improvements which are up to date. I am sure the hon. Minister has a lot of work to do.

 

Madam Chairperson, the same applies to the Land Policy. It is outdated. We are supposed to up-date it. We cannot continue using laws that are archaic up until now. We cannot continue doing that.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me also to talk about the issue of informing the general populous on how they own land. The Ministry of Lands has a mandate according to this budget, to go on electronic media, television, to sensitise Zambians on issues concerning land. We have got an issue where there is a title deed and a mining right. Many people do not know which one supersedes the other. People with title deeds assume that they will be given 50 per cent of the shares if a mining company approaches them to mine on their land. The people must be informed that owning a title is simply renting from the Government. Some people have been holding onto land speculatively. At the end of the day they start selling it off in pieces instead of developing it.

 

Mr Ngulube: In conclusion!

 

Mr Jamba: No, I will not conclude!

 

Mr Kambwili: Surveyor General speaking.

 

Mr Jamba: Madam Chairperson, I do not know where the flex card being used by the ministry was developed. The hon. Minister should see to it that this flex card system is brought up to date. Most of the times when you go to the ministry you find that the system has collapsed. Why does it collapse so often? Why did they introduce something which collapses every now and then? We want to be able to find everything we need when we go to the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources.

 

Madam Chairperson, before I sit down, let me talk about the land audit, but I have to declare interest because I am surveyor. Surveyors we called by the Government to make submissions, which they did. Some surveyors have even finished their jobs, but the Government, which promised to pay them, has not done so yet. I am not talking about the current hon. Minister, it was a previous Government. My point is that money for the land audit was promised, but after finishing the job the Government is saying there is no money.

 

Mr Ngulube: Stop shouting!

 

Mr Jamba: Can the hon. Minister ensure that the issue of the land audit is brought to an end so that the surveyors can be paid. Surveyors are just like small to medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). You cannot put a bank guarantee of K66,000 in an account and let it sit there for over two years.

 

Mr Ngulube: Meaning?

 

Mr Jamba: You cannot withdraw that guarantee because the Government has not paid you. I have said from the onset that this ministry is a mud pond.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke Central): Madam Chairperson, I want to start by reminding hon. Members that most revolutions and independence struggles where about because of land or as Malcolm X put it, the landless against the landlords. We have to be very careful when dealing with land. We have to protect the poor because, mostly, only the rich have access to land.

 

Madam Chairperson, according to calculations based on the land area, each person in Sesheke Central is entitled to three square kilometres of land. However, less than 1 per cent of the people of Sesheke have title deeds for the plots on which their houses are. It is, therefore, a welcome development that the Government is working on a programme to give titles to a lot of our people. I am also happy that the land policy is being revised and updated.

 

Madam Chairperson, we should take into account the two land tenure systems that we have in country which are the customary land tenure and the titled administration of land. It is extremely important that these two systems be made to work side by side. The major challenge of the customary land tenure is title deeds. I will come back to that point later on.

 

Madam Chairperson, we know that there is a lot of land being grabbed in the country by cadres beginning from the time of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) up to now.

 

Hon. Government Member: And the UPND!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: This is also compounded by the fact that councils do not have sufficient capacity for land administration. As we talk about issues of land policy and titling of land, we should not forget the need to improve the capacity of the councils. The situation is worse in the rural areas.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Chairperson, land titling will lead to the creation of wealth for our people. It will allow our people to enter the financial inclusion which we are talking about because they will be able to utilise title deeds to access loans from the banks. That would be a very good development. The Peruvian economist Sato said developing countries have a lot of people who are rich, but poor. They are rich because in most developing countries there is a lot of land and in the customary land system almost everybody had a piece of land of some kind, but this land had no value. When land has no value it is of no use in the modern economy and that is why titles are very important.

 

Madam Chairperson, another area which should bring the Government and customary land together is that the administration of customary land can be delegated to councils. This is being done in Ghana and the Ivory Coast. The councils are delegated land by chiefs who administer it on their behalf. They chiefs are not handing over that land to the council, they are simply giving it to them to administer. The chiefs have a share in perpetuity of all land that is leased or sold. This will create a situation where our chiefs will no longer be complaining because traditionally, if a chief has no land he is no longer a chief. Delegating land to the councils will go a long way in making our chiefs comfortable that they are not losing their land and they will be getting revenue regularly in perpetuity. That is a matter which should be looked at.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to suggest that the ministry should be renamed from the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources to the Ministry of Lands and Forests because the natural resources which are being referred to have been moved to the other ministries. There are only forests and land in this particular ministry. I will therefore, spend a bit of time on forestry.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Revised Forest Policy and the Forest Act are sufficient enough to address the challenges that the forestry sector is facing. Both the Revised Forest Policy and the Forest Act of 2015 do introduce a new dimension to the management of forest in Zambia. It provides for the active participation of communities and the private sector. In the statement by the hon. Minister, I did not hear much about the private sector and the communities playing a very important role in forestry management in the country. The problem we have had in the forestry department is that while the Forest Policy and Forest Act may be adequate, the Forest Department has no sufficient capacity to implement neither the policy nor the law and the regulations, regarding the management of forests in this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to mention that the Forest Department has been under funded since the 1990s. The resultant effect is very clear. Everywhere you go, there is massive deforestation. Every province, even in areas where there is no charcoal burning, there has been deforestation. The load shedding, I do not have figures yet, but I believe that it must have increased or contributed to increased deforestation to not by less than 5 per cent. We have to appreciate the fact that even the national determined contributions for which we are members of the Paris Agreement on Climate Change (PACC) has a very strong assumption that there will be sustainable forest management in the country. It is one of the foundations of that national development contribution. So, forests must be given quite substantial attention.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about the revenue that could be generated by her ministry. In the past, we had regeneration funds for the forest departments. These were not necessarily to deprive the treasury of resources but were targeting certain forest areas which had tremendous economic value for the country such as the teak forests. The teak forests are found in Kalomo, Kazungula, Sesheke, Sioma, Senanga ...

 

Mr Ngulube: Kabwe Central?

 

Mr Kufakwandi: …and Zambezi in the West. These forests are the most economic valued natural forests in this country. The potential for export of high value timber is great. They would play an important role in diversification of the economy. We really need to pay attention to that.

 

Mr Kambwili: Finally!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Chairperson, I have also said that …

 

Mr Kambwili: Pwisheni ba mudala!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kufakwandi: I have a big message here, Hon. Kambwili.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry for that. Madam Chairperson, the first step we need to take is to restructure the Forest Department. We have the Forest Policy and Forest Act in place. We need the Forest Department to be restructured so that its functions and roles are reflected.  At the moment, it does not reflect anything. The capacity to put forestry where it is supposed to be is not taking place in this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about private forestry. The potential for the private sector to play in the management of the Forest Estate is enormous but the problem is that we do not give them space. The Government is not giving the private sector space to play a role in the management of forestry resource in the country. Let us look at plantations. The private sector is better suited to play a part in the establishment of forest plantations in this country. On the Copperbelt Province, 100,000 ha were prepared for forestry plantations. We have only planted 50,000 ha, which has also reduced over the past twenty years to perhaps production of less than half of the area. As a result of that and the high rate of deforestation that is taking place in our natural forests, Zambia will face wood deficit of about 1,000,000 cu m per annum in the next few years. We shall go back to where we were in the 1970s, where a lot of foreign exchange will have to be spent on importing timber. The Government has to move and look at that matter.

 

Madam Chairperson, I therefore, proposed that a National Indaba should be held because this is an emergence. May be the information which the Government has does not reflect the situation as grave as it is. This is the truth. If we do not take action, Zambia will go back to where it was in the 1970s, exporting 100 per cent of our soft woods. Today, we are importing all the transmission polls for the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation Limited (ZESCO) for rural electrification. Already, there is a problem and it is something we need to look at.

 

Mr Kambwili: We need to do a jintu jaitwa on forests.

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I support the Budget to the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources and I hope it will be renamed as the Ministry of Lands and Forests.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Kabanda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the hon. Minister’s policy statement on the management of land, which she has ably described as being handled in a transparent and sustainable manner. Despite my support for the Budget, I want to say that land management in this country has faced a lot of setbacks. This is because it is painted with a semblance of corruption because the ministry has been involved in double allocations of land. I think that these are issues which we should address very seriously. As we are all aware, wars normally arise over land. It is important that we take care of this important resource which is our ancestral heritage.

 

Madam Chairperson, coming to the enforcement of the Forest Act, we do not need to employ a lot of staff because we can make use of our communities, including our traditional rulers. We can pay them commission for protecting our forests. The most important is the issue of the Mukula tree which is threatened with severe extinction. We need to harness it because it is believed to be a second revenue earner to copper in this country. It normally finds itself in China because of its medicinal value. Sometimes, it is used to make furniture which, ultimately, comes back to Zambia and is sold at very exorbitant prices. We need to see how we can protect it.

 

Madam Chairperson, other revenue measures should include the repeal of the Lands Act which is repugnant to the contemporary land issues.

 

Hon. PF Member: Question!

 

Mr Kabanda: Deforestation through Charcoal burning has also contributed significantly to the challenge of climate change. This is also as a result of the lack of policing. So, we need to engage the community to assist in protecting our forests, at least, on a commission basis.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The First Chairperson: That is commendable Hon. Kabanda, as usual.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add on my voice to this non-contentious Vote.  I want to state from the outset that I fully support the budgetary allocation to this ministry.

 

Hon. Member: Eba councillor aba!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, ...

 

Hon. Member: On a point of order, Sir. What is a counsellor doing here?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, for any development to take place in any country, Zambia inclusive, there must be three things. These are land, human resource and liquid cash. Zambia is blessed because it has the extent of 750 sq. km of land. Of this, only 6 per cent is State land, meaning that the vast majority of land in this country is customary.

 

Madam Chairperson, this being our only natural resource, it is important that we manage it prudently and distribute it equitably across all tribes and groupings in this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to begin with the issue of the informal sector in this country. We have taken so long to formalise the informal settlement areas. As a result, the Government is unable to deliver services that people are supposed to enjoy in the formal settlement areas such as clean water and sewerage.

 

Madam Chairperson, many times, our people try to apply to the Ministry of Lands so that they can acquire title deeds, but are only given land records which are like Under-Five Clinic cards whose lease tenure is only fourteen years.

 

Madam Chairperson, like the previous debater stated, land being our resource, people would want to use title deeds as collateral for obtaining credit from banks. However, they cannot have access to loans because what they have are land records.

 

Madam Chairperson, women and youth in this country are unable to participate fully in so many activities, such as politics because they do not have enough resources for them to participate and fully compete with the men folk who would sell of their property without even asking the family for permission and acquire liquid cash for them to participate in a lot of activities.

 

Madam Chairperson, this time around, we want to direct our thinking towards improving the lives of women and youth in this country.

Madam Chairperson, I feel that the Land Development Fund that the hon. Minister alluded to is not enough because there is a lot that we need to do before we advertise this land and finally give it away to our people to develop. We need roads to be opened up. We need to put up drainage, water services and power lines. This money this money is not enough for us to do all those activities to ensure that people are given fully serviced pieces of land.

 

Madam Chairperson, many are times that councils advertise pieces of land that are not serviced, but are mere bushes and developers have to make their own roads. This becomes an added cost to the already exorbitant fees that they pay in development fees for them to acquire the plots.

 

Madam Chairperson, how can we properly manage this land? As regards waste management, we have seen that there are a lot of illegal dumpsites that are polluting or damaging our land resource. I believe that if funds are allocated, we can use the good pieces of legislation that we have in this country. For example, the Urban and Regional Planning Act is very clear that every district should have dumping sites and people should not dump anyhow.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is shocking that when you travel from South Africa through Botswana, the roads are very clean and smart, but the moment you arrive at the Kazungula Border Post, what greets you is a lot of litre. The same applies to Nakonde, Madam Chairperson. We need to involve our people so that they can appreciate this natural resource that we have.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are a lot of issues that we have not done right when it comes to methods of farming in this country. For example, the Chitemene System in Northern Province where people cut trees and farm at a certain portion of land one farming season and move to another piece of land the next, leaving the other piece unproductive. We have not managed this very well.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 1975, then President, Dr Kaunda, decided to place land under his control because of the growing demand. As the population grows, the demand for land also grows. What we have seen as a result of population growth, demand for land and poor management is that people have now even started constructing houses in places where our beloved ones lie.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear

 

Mr Jere: For example, in Kabwe…

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jere: …it is sad that we saw that people had constructed houses in graveyards.

 

Madam Chairperson, this simply shows that the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources is behind in terms of planning, people need shelter as the population is growing. It is common logic that we need to open up these parcels of land, advertise it and give out to people so that they can stop either building or farming in these graveyards.

 

Madam Chairperson …

 

Mr Ngulube: I thank you!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jere: …land wrangles, for example, in Magoye Settlement Scheme, where people settled for so many years but there are workers in the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources that obtained titles and then displaced people who have been there for so many years. The laws are very clear that in as much as we would want to develop, we should also take care of the indigenous people who have settled in a place for many years. It is sad that today when we know that the law is clear that the President has got powers to compulsorily reposes land that has not been utilised for so many years. You will find that this person, after so many years, will come back from the United Kingdom and displace people that have been living on a piece of land and have developed it, which is a very sad development.

 

Madam Chairperson, the law states that within eighteen months one should be able to develop that piece of land failure to which the State is at liberty to reposes it so that it is given to those that are able to develop it.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I conclude, let me talk about the issue of the water frontage in this country. With your permission, Madam Chairperson, I want to quote Article 253 (1) (g) of our amended Constitution which states:

 

      “river frontages, islands, lakeshores and ecologically and culturally sensitive areas –

 

1. to be accessible to the public;

 

1. not to be leased, fenced or sold; and

 

1. to maintained and used for conservation and prevention activities;”

 

Madam Chairperson, today, people settled wherever they have settled because of the availability of water but sadly, some of these people rear animals but are unable to access the rivers. For example, when you go to Livingstone, the water frontage from the Victoria Falls to Kazungula is now in the hands of the foreigners, white settlers. People that have been living there for so many years are unable to access this water. Mind you, this used to be their source of food in terms of fish. They could go in there rivers and lakes to fish thereby providing food for themselves. Not only that, when they sell the fish it was their source of income which assisted them to take their children to school.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: At the moment the people are unable to earn a living from the rivers because most of the river frontage has been fenced off. Those who have not travelled to witness what I am saying can take some time and go to Kafue and see what is happening.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, a few years or months from now, all the water frontage on the Kafue River will be fenced off and the local people around that area will have no access to the river. This means we would have gone contradictory to what is written in the law. People should have access to these water bodies.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to add my voice on the budget for the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources.

 

Mr Nyirenda: Ema backbencher aya!

 

Laughter

 

Dr Kambwili: From the outset, I want to state that I support the budget for the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources…

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: …though the money is not enough but we know that one can only do with what is available. I just want to comment on a few issues that I feel are important in the management of land in our country, the first one being the cost of land to the poor people at the local level.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have had issues of illegal land allocation throughout our country mainly to deal with council workers and to some extent political cadres. This issue of illegal land allocation can be resolved if we get involved properly as Government. The issue of illegal land allocation has been with us for a long time but I think by and large what we need to ask ourselves is what has caused this issue of illegal land allocation.

 

Madam Chairperson, for me, the cause of this illegal land allocation is that it has been very difficult for the poor people to access land under normal circumstances. The poor people are not given an opportunity to own land through the agencies of the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources who are the local authorities…

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: … because the conditions that are attached to be given land, a person in Kawama, Kapoto and Misisi cannot afford them. If we lessen these prohibitive requirements, where the poor can easily access land, you will find that there will be no reason for the poor people to go and ask for land from political cadres or indeed to go and give themselves land where they find it is not occupied or not in use. I think by and large, we have not gone down to really look at what is causing this problem of illegal land allocation. For instance, when the council advertises for land, one of the requirements is that you have to have money in your bank account. You have to show that you have the money to develop the piece of land. Secondly, you must have enough money to pay the cost of the plot.

 

Madam Chairperson, today, there is no plot in any local authority especially on the Copperbelt which costs less than K12,000 but how many people can afford K12,000. An average civil servant gets about K3,000 or K4,000 per month then you go and advertise land for K12,000. If this poor civil servant cannot afford that K12,000 and finds a group of cadres who say they can given him or her a piece of land at K500, he will go to the cadres to get land. If the cost of land is too exorbitant and they find a portion of land that has been lying idle for a long time, they will go and help themselves to that land. So, I think by and large, what we need to do hon. Minister, is that we need to tell these local authorities. I raised this issue in Cabinet, I am sure you remember hon. Minister, and when I was going around talking about the global economic effects, I did direct all councils to reduce …

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Kambwili, let me give some guidance.

 

What you discuss in Cabinet is confidential.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: You cannot divulge that here.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Kambwili: Some people will challenge me that why were you not saying it when you were in Cabinet so, they must know, that I raised the issue in Cabinet.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I did go to give directives to all councils that they should consider reducing the cost of land but this has not been followed up by action, up to now. Councils have turned the allocation of land into a source of income. The whole purpose of charging these monies by councils is to provide services such as sewer lines, water, roads and etcetera. However, when land is given, all these services are not provided. That is why even children’s playing parks have been given out as land for building houses because they want to raise money for their salaries and this must be discouraged. I think the hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources needs to take responsibility and should start monitoring how the councils are giving land. If we are not going to regulate how much a plot should cost and the requirements for one to own that plot, the issue of illegal land allocation will be with us for the rest of our lives.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is unfortunate and very painful because the poor people buy land from cadres, who they believe have authority because they belong probably to the ruling party …

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Kambwili: … or from a council worker, who they believe has authority to give land. Afterwards, they build houses from the slab level to roof level and then suddenly, the council workers go and raise those houses. That is unfair.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!                                                        

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, my heart bleeds as with what happened in Kitwe last week where poor people’s houses were demolished and they slept in the road and cried.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

 

Dr Kambwili: Demolishing people’s houses in the rainy season is not right and the Government should not have allowed that to happen. If the council workers are not monitored properly and advised correctly, at the end of the day, the Government in power will lose its popularity.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes! Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, they must realise that some people in the councils and Civil Service are working against the Government. If they do not take action, at the end the day, we will be at the receiving end.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: In a nutshell, we need to control the councils and the cost of land. If, for instance, the council wants to raise money through the allocation of land, we can bring in a system where we can have two types of land. The first type can be in high cost areas for those who can afford to pay exorbitant fees and the second one in low cost areas and people can pay even K200 for that land.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes! Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Once we do this, I can rest assure you that the issue of illegal land allocation will be a thing of the past. However, I think the previous Governments have let the councils to increase the cost of land every year without taking any action.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the large chunks of land that some foreigners own in this country. It is unreasonable that the local people are looking for land to build houses, yet a foreign man owns almost 10,000 ha of land from the airport up to Ndeke and only one quarter of that land is utilised for agriculture. Surely, we can get that land back and give it to the poor people to build houses.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: These are issues that make our people get upset with Governments and feel that, maybe at the end of the day, people are compromised. I think we should come up with a law where huge chucks of unutilised land owned by the foreigners should be repossessed and be given to the poor people. That is the way to go.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order, in the House! Order, hon. Members! Let us listen to Hon. Kambwili.

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, concerning the issuance of title deeds, I do not understand why it is difficult for the poor people to obtain title deeds in this country. Like the previous speaker said, it is very easy to obtain title deeds. For instance, I have three pieces of land and I obtained title deeds for them. I bought one of the plots …

 

The First Chairperson: Are you sure you want to discuss yourself?

 

Dr Kambwili: Okay, I will move away from there.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, all I was trying is that if I can easily get a title deed, then it should be easy for an ordinary person on the street to get one.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mine (ZCCM) houses were sold in 1997. To date, the poor miners have not been given title deeds. When we were in the Opposition, we castigated the Movement for Multi-party for Democracy (MMD). I was in the forefront because I represent a mining constituency and up to now the miners have not been given title deeds.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame! Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to take this issue very seriously. Even the poor people who bought council houses have not gotten title deeds up to now.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hammer, hammer!

 

Dr Kambwili: The department that is responsible for giving title deeds must be reorganised, or if possible, they should fire all of them and bring in new people. Hon. Chali and I once worked for the mines and up to now we have no title deeds for those houses.

 

Interruptions

 

Dr Kambwili: Therefore, the hon. Minister should work on this issue.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Government makes pronouncements and they should guide the civil servants on policy. The issue of farm land that the Government gave to the former miners on the Copperbelt is becoming a thorn in the flesh.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Dr Kambwili: Let us resolve this issue. Her Honour the Vice-President and I went and gave directives, but up to now the councils in Kitwe, Ndola, Luanshya and Mufulira have not given the land to the poor miners.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, this land was given to them in September last year. Up to now, the poor miners have nowhere to farm, yet the President of the Republic of Zambia, hon. Ministers and Her Honour the Vice-President have not done anything about it. Can they not see that there are people who are working against the Government?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! Shame!

 

Dr Kambwili: We need to clean up these systems. I do not understand why council workers can delay to implement what the President announced. The hon. Minister should follow up this issue because those of us who were in the forefront and made pronouncements are being blamed.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order, on my left!

 

Hon. Kambwili, sit down.

                                               

Dr Kambwili resumed his seat.

 

Mr Lusambo interjected.

 

The First Chairperson: Can we have order in the House. Hon. Minister for Copperbelt Province, please, let us have order in the House.

 

Hon. Kambwili, please, continue.

 

Dr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I want to warn that boy.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson:  Order, hon. Members!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: CK! CK! CK! CK!

 

The First Chairperson: Order, on my left!

 

Sit down, Hon. Kambwili.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order, on my left!

 

I do not want to start mentioning names. Let us have some order.

 

Mr Lusambo left the Assembly Chamber.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Kambwili, there are no boys in this House. You know this because you have been here long enough. Try to be calm as you debate. You have done very well so far. You are almost done. You have one minute to go. Please, exhibit some patience and calmness because I know that you have the necessary maturity.

 

You may continue.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, as Government we need to ensure that we follow-up on the pronouncements that we make.

 

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Kambwili: These civil servants are working against the Government.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Kambwili: The Government gave an instruction for land to be given to miners. This has not been done. For one to accuse me of taking over a gold club, I take that with a pinch of salt.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Kambwili: And this coming from a boy who is not even PF …

 

The First Chairperson: Please, I already guided.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

 The First Chairperson: Hon. Kambwili, sit down. Sit down.

 

Mr Kambwili resumed his seat.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Minister of Lands and Natural Resources, you may wind up debate.

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Chairperson, I will start with the issues raised by Hon. Jamba. Unfortunately, he is not in the House. He has just left.

 

Mr Jamba: I am here!

 

Ms Kapata: Can you sit in your place?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Jamba went back to this seat.

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Jamba likened the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources to a Chinese mad-pond. He talked about the Commissioner of Lands and some of the issues in the province.

 

I would like to inform the hon. Member that the Government is …

 

Mr Kambwili left the Assembly Chamber.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Continue, hon. Minister, you have the Floor.

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Chairperson, the Government is in the process of establishing the Lands Commission, which will have offices in all provinces and, progressively, in all the districts. This is aimed at taking services as closer to our people as possible.

 

My ministry is working with the Ministry of Justice to develop a Lands Commission Bill that will soon be presented before this House. I would also like to inform Hon. Jamba that we have provincial lands officers that are available, in all the provinces, to deal with land issues.

 

Madam Chairperson, there is no need for people to go and queue up at the Commissioner of Lands Office. We always encourage members of the public to use the customer service centre rather than try and access the Commissioner of Lands. When I went to the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources, the Commissioner of Lands and I decided to allocate only one day in a week to the general public. This is because we have a lot of work in the ministry that needs to be done. We cannot afford to see people every day.  The ministry has a customer service centre for people to go and report or check progress with land matters.  We are in the process of revising the Customer Service Charter to improve service delivery and scanning records to ensure that record-keeping is done in a proper manner to avoid missing files and so on.

 

Madam Chairperson, the dual-data is up-to-date and the images that it has are current. The Surveyor-General is empowered in the Land Survey Act to make provisions for changes in the equipment used by surveyors. I am sure that Hon. Jamba is aware of this. Amendments to the Land Survey Act are going on and we will make sure that we capture the new trades in the surveyor profession.

Hon. Kufakwandi, my ministry is in consultation with stakeholders, including traditional leaders, through the House of Chiefs, to finalise the land policy that is aimed at addressing, among other things, land alienation and administration in the country. We will also operationalise the Lands Commission and all key stakeholders will be involved. 

 

Hon. Kufakwandi raised the same issues that Hon. Jamba raised. The Forest Act of 2015 has provided for participation of the private sector, businesses and communities. As such, we have taken up this initiative and started piloting projects in various communities in extraction of non-wood products such as honey. This is also being encouraged as part of development to the communities. Indeed, Hon. Kufakwandi, the National Forest Policy of 2014 and the Forest Act No. 4 of 2015 are sufficient legislation for the forestry department.

 

Madam Chairperson, private sector and community participation is key to forestry management. These approaches have been included in the law and my ministry will put in place regulations for private and community participation in forestry management, in order to attract them into plantation development as well value addition to the forestry resource.

 

Madam Chairperson, most of the issues raised by Hon. Jere are not part of the Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources but the council. With regards to the displacement of people, before land is given out, we carry out a social survey to see if there are people living on a particular piece of land. If the finding of the social survey is that there are people living on that land, we include them in the issuance of land. 

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kambwili talked about …

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Kapata: …issuing of Title. The Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources has embarked on a National Titling Programme.

 

Madam, in my policy statement, I alluded to that fact that the ministry has been allocated money to embark on a National Titling Programme. Indeed, there is no need for people not to have title deeds. As long as a person has paid for it, we must see to it that the title deeds are given within the shortest possible time.  We are also going to ensure that the title deeds are given the seriousness that they deserve.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Votes 85/01, 85/02, 85/03, 85/04, 85/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 85/08 – (Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources – Natural Resources and Environment – Nil.

 

The First Chairperson: Could the hon. Minister explain why the departmental total is missing.

 

The Minister of Lands and Natural Resources (Ms Kapata): Madam Chairperson, this allocation has moved to the Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environment Protection.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Vote 85/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 85/09 – (Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources – Forestry Department– K81,361,954).

 

Ms Chisangano (Gwembe): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1171, Activity 012 – Support to Forestry Activities for Eastern Province (5) – K26,600,000.

 

Ms Kapata: Madam Chairperson, the provision is required to support the cost of executing forest community activities in Eastern Province. The increase is as a result of increased support from the United States Agency for International Development (USAID).

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 85/09 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

 

Vote 85/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 62 – (Ministry of Energy – Human and Administration – K211,772,448).

 

The Minister of Energy (Mr Mabumba): Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank you for this opportunity to present the 2017 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Energy.

 

Madam, before I proceed, let me just join those that have conveyed their condolences the late for Deputy Speaker, Hon. Mkhondo Lungu.

 

Madam Chairperson, the mandate of the ministry of Energy remains of providing policy guidance in the energy sector of the country. The ministry’s portfolio functions include; the implementation of the energy policy, development and management of energy resources which include hydro power, biomass, coal, renewable and alternative sources of energy, management of the oil pipeline, petroleum procurement and storage and pricing.

 

Madam, currently, the Ministry of Energy comprises of three departments namely:

 

The Department of Energy’s mandate includes; development of petroleum and electricity infrastructure to enhance security of supply, to increase the use of renewable and alternative sources of energy and to facilitate increased participation of the private sector in the energy sector.

 

The Department of Planning and Information’s mandate includes; coordination of policy formulation and analysis in the ministry, monitoring and evaluation of programmes and projects in the energy sector, coordination of budget preparation and resource mobilisation, coordination of information communication technologies activities in the ministry including technical support of office equipment and coordination of Cabinet or Parliamentary Business.

 

The third department is the Human Resource and Administration whose mandate is ensuring that the ministry is at all times provided with an efficient and effective internal administrative support system in its delivery of services.

 

Further, the Ministry of Energy has the office for the Promotion of Private Power Investments (OPPPI), whose role is to promote the private sector investment and participation in the development of power projects in Zambia.

 

Hon. Members of this august House may wish to note that following the realignment of this ministry by His Excellency the President Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, the President of the Republic of Zambia, we are currently working on the structure of the ministry to streamline its operations and enhance efficiency in the ministry and energy sector.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry is also responsible for six statutory instrument bodies/intuitions namely; the Energy Regulation Board (ERB), Indeni Petroleum Refinery Company Limited, Rural Electrification Authority (REA), Tanzania Zambia Mafuta Pipeline (Tazama) Pipeline Limited, Zambezi River Authority (ZRA) and the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) Limited.  

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, the focus of the energy sector will remain that of ensuring that there is adequate and reliable supply of energy that will be made available through the development of appropriate network infrastructure to improve power generation, transmission and distribution capacity, and also to ensure efficiency and cost effectiveness in the supply of petroleum products. In pursuing our strategic goal, of power adequacy, reliability and independency, the ministry’s strategic thrust has been to broaden and diversify the country energy mix by facilitating investment in renewable energy and coal production.

 

Madam, the energy sector remains a key drive of industrialisation and job creation. Therefore, energy is a key resource that should be developed, harnessed and properly managed given the impact it has on National productivity. It is against this background that the Ministry of Energy is working hard to reduce the power deficits including the power outages a number of provinces have experienced in the recent past due to system failures on the ZESCO network.

 

Madam Chairperson, as you may be aware, our country’s energy sector is faced with a number of challenges. Access to electricity in rural areas still remains low, as evidenced by many of the presentations from hon. Members of Parliament. According to the Central Statistics Office (CSO) 2015 Living Conditions Survey Report, rural access to electricity remains at 4.4 per cent as compared with 67.3 per cent in urban areas. The low electricity access rate in rural areas could be attributed to growth in population that has not been matched with the rate of electricity connection.

 

Therefore, the Government has a mammoth task to achieve the target rural electricity access rate of 51 per cent by 2030, as set out in the Rural Electrification Master Plan (REMP). The other challenge is that the electricity tariffs have also remained below cost reflectivity levels for a long period of time. What this entails is that there has been low investment in the sector over the years and the Government has to subsidise the cost of the tariff and price differential.

 

The other challenge is that of the ongoing power rationing arising from low water levels in our generating power stations. It is for these reasons and others that the Ministry of Energy will continue pursuing policy measures and strategies and programmes aimed at unlocking the potential of the energy sector to national development.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry’s focus for 2017 is to implement strategies that will assist in dealing with the challenges stated above. We will also strive to ensure that we make headways in all priority programmes that are ongoing with the resources that have been allocated to the sector. May I reiterate the hon. Minister of Finance’s words during his 2017 Budget Address that:

 

“Sir, we are alive to the fact that the choices we are making will have consequences on our society, especially the vulnerable.”

                                      

As part of the implementation of the economic recovery programme dubbed ‘Zambia plus’, the ministry will strive to ensure we start the process of migrating electricity tariffs to cost reflectivity in a gradual manner. In addition, we will also ensure we maintain prices of petroleum products at cost reflective levels.

 

Madam Chairperson, the economic prices for both electricity and petroleum are necessary because the Ministry of Finance has no fiscal space to continue the programme of subsidies, which have become unsustainable to the National Treasury. Further, economic prices will facilitate the promotion of private sector participation and investment in the energy sector. In view of the planned gradual migration to an economic tariff structure for power in 2017, the Zambian people are encouraged to be energy efficient by taking the following measures:

 

1. implementation of the switch and save measure by switching off all electrical appliances and lights that are not in use at each time of the day at household level;

 

1. migration from the ordinary (incandescent) bulbs to the compact fluorescent lights (CFLs) and light emitting diodes (LED) bulbs;

 

1. use of solar water geysers for water heating purposes; and

 

1. use of alternative sources of energy like liquefied petroleum gas for cooking and heating purposes.

 

Some of the measures mentioned above may have to be implemented through a mandatory programme.

 

Madam Chairperson, the allocation to the Ministry of Energy for 2017 is K211,772,448. The allocation for the energy sector in the 2017 National Budget will be used for operations in the ministry and to implement some priority and ongoing programmes that were already committed during the 2016 fiscal year.

 

Madam Chairperson, my statement on the ministry’s budget estimates for 2017 is in two parts. In the first part, I will present the highlights of the achievements in the three sectors in the past one year, after which I will move on to give the priority programmes for 2017.

 

Performance Review for 2016

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, the Ministry of Energy continued to implement programmes and project in the energy sector that were aimed at ensuring that there was security of supply in the country. The Ministry of Energy recorded significant progress in the petroleum subsector. Phase I of the construction of our strategic fuel reserves was completed with the commissioning of the Mongu Depot in August, 2016.

 

In order to continue with the implementation of the uniform petroleum price mechanism and ensuring that the fuel prices across the country are uniform, the Ministry of Energy continued with the construction of filling stations in the rural areas, the first one being in Luwingu, which is at 70 per cent completion. When Luwingu is done, we will move on to do Mporokoso.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the electricity subsector, the Ministry of Energy continued implementing measures that were aimed at alleviating the load-shedding situation that the country has been experiencing. The following are some of the measures that have been undertaken.

 

The 120 MW Hydro Scheme in Itezhi-tezhi was completed and His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, commissioned it on 4th March, 2016. In addition, both units of the Maamba 300 MW coal-fired plant were successfully synchronised to the national grid and are currently in service. Further, the ministry continued with the project of connecting the North-Western Province to the national grid to replace the diesel generators that are currently servicing the province. We expect to complete this project in 2017. Furthermore, the Government continued with the importation of emergence power from different sources which included Kapowership, Aggreko Plc, Electricidade de Moçambique (EDM), Eskom of South Africa and the Southern African Power Pool (SAPP).

 

As I stated on the Floor of this House in a ministerial statement which I delivered on Thursday, 3rd August, 2016, the Government, through the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), has been importing an average of 300 MW. The importation of this power has come at a very great cost to the Government because on average we are spending about US$ 40 million monthly on power imports.

 

In order to manage the cost escalation associated with power importation, the ministry is pursuing two bilateral discussions for power trading with two members of SAPP. This power importation is expected to be reasonably priced compared with our current contracts on power imports. I want to make it clear that power importation will remain a short term strategy in the managing the country’s power deficit. I have seen on social media whereby some people have been condemning our importation of power from Eskom, South Africa. This is just a short term strategy that is meant to manage the current load-shedding.

 

Obviously, the long term strategy is in investing in the renewable energy subsector, which the ministry wants to promote. As part of the renewable energy promotion, the ministry has also finalised the development of the Renewable Energy Feed-In Tariff (REFIT) that is going to promote private sector participation.

 

In addition, the Government has made headways in round one of the Scaling Solar Project, which is being undertaken by the Industrial Development Corporation (IDC). The IDC has since commenced the development of two solar Photo-Voltaic (PV) plants of 50 MW each in the Multi-Facility Economic Zone (MFEZ) in Lusaka for an initial 100 MW out of the targeted 600 MW. The second tender is expected to start in January, 2017 for the other 250 MW. The Power Purchase Agreements (PPAs) for these two projects were signed by ZESCO as on off taker on 22nd September, 2016.

 

Madam Chairperson, in terms of the long term strategy, ZESCO is pursuing the up-rating and development of the following ongoing generation projects:

 

1. Musonda -10 MW;

 

1. Chishimba -14.8 MW;

 

1. Lusiwasi upper -15 MW; and

 

1. Kafue Lower, which is our major project of 750 MW.

 

Madam Chairperson, the 2017 Budget theme is, “Restoring Fiscal Fitness for Sustained Inclusive Growth and Development”. The ministry will work to contribute to the achievement of the fifth pillar of ‘Zambia plus’; ensuring greater economic stability, growth and job creation through policy consistency to raise confidence for sustained private sector investment and participation in the energy sector.

 

As earlier stated, during the 2017 budget cycle, the ministry will work to ensure that there is a gradual migration of electricity tariffs towards cost reflectivity while maintaining the prices of petroleum products at cost reflective levels so as to encourage private sector participation and to reduce the pressure on the National Treasury.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mabumba: As you may be aware, the Government has been spending an average of US$150 million on fuel subsidies as well as US$200 million on electricity subsidies annually. The ministry will, therefore, continue with its strategic focus on the following key issue:

 

1. increasing the electricity generation capacity through the facilitation of the development of 300 MW EMCO Power Plant in Maamba. There are on a few things that are remaining for that project to kick-start;

 

1. expansion of Maamba Coal Plant through additional investment in another 300 MW coal and the discussion will start in January, 2017 for this investment;

 

1. improving the transmission and distribution infrastructure such as the Lusaka Distribution Network and Kabwe-Pensulo Network. On the Kabwe-Pensulo Network, as you are aware, recently we had those power outages simply because the country has got one transmission line which feeds the five provinces. However, as part of our contingency measure, we will be constructing another transmission line from Kabwe to Pensulo.

 

1. pursuing the construction of the Zambia/Tanzania/Kenya interconnector to allow Zambia trade power with the Eastern African Power Pool;

 

1. working on the Kafue/Muzuma/Livingstone Network, which will also allow us to engage in power trading with the SAPP;

 

1. expanding the strategic fuel reserves both in Zambia and Tanzania;

 

1. completion of the Feed-In Tariff and seek approval in order to allow private sector participation in renewable energy;

 

1. facilitating the development of Phase II, which I have already alluded to, of the Scaling Solar Project; and

 

1. facilitating feasibility study of the ideological assessment of the sites on the Luapula River as part of our diversification agenda and the tender for a consultant has already be floated.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Energy has …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Mr Mabumba: Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Energy has also embarked on key regulatory reforms to ensure that it continues to be responsible to the country’s current and future energy needs. Consequently, the ministry is undertaking amendments of the Energy Regulation Act, Electricity Act and Petroleum Act. The amendments are meant to provide for the following issues:

 

1. clear regulatory powers for the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) to regulate the sector;

 

1. tariff adjustment for pass-through costs such as cost of fuel from IPPs;

 

1. multi-year adjustments that will ensure a tariff migration path to cost reflectivity is predetermined.; and

 

1. facilitate private sector participation in fuel procurement.

 

Madam Chairperson, the ministry, through the ERB is also currently undertaking an industry wide course of service study in the electricity sub-sector. The study is expected to be completed in 2017 and will provide cost information that will form the basis for all future tariff adjustment. Furthermore, the ministry will in 2017 embark on key sector reforms in both the electricity and petroleum sub-sectors to streamline operations as follows:

 

1. review the electricity sub-sector model in terms of overall structure, corporate governance and operational management;

 

1. develop and implement a new model in the petroleum sub-sector so as to enhance private sector participation, especially that effective 2017, procurement of finished petroleum products will be done by the private sector; and

 

1. undertake the review of the ministry structure and the policy and strategic plan as earlier stated.

 

Madam Chairperson, the economic environment in which the 2017 budget will be implemented is a very challenging one. Only unity of purpose and hard work will help us overcome the current energy challenges being faced for shared prosperity. I therefore appeal to this august House to support my ministry’s estimates for 2017 which amounts to K211,772,448 to facilitate the implementation of programmes and projects in the energy sector.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the Ministry of Energy. I would also like to thank the hon. Minister most sincerely for his policy statement. His demeanour is very humbling and I think that sometimes he rises above many people in the way he presents issues. I will just dovetail some of his comments to see if we can add value to what we are trying to do together. I particularly like his last sentiment. In my own words, he said that if we push the energy agenda, we could succeed.

 

Madam Chairperson, one of the reasons why our country’s economic situation is in the manner that it is, is because of the energy crisis we have. As you know, energy can be called a catalyst to development or an igniter of development. It can be called the main ingredient to getting things done. As you know, for the mines to make progress, they need both electricity and petroleum.

 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to request the hon. Minister not to fall in the same trap that his predecessors fell into from the time Zambia became a republic. I am talking about patronage of these corporate bodies. Do not forget that the hon. Minister of Finance indicated that the two key providers of energy are supposed to be on the consideration list for being hived off, in the hon. Minister’s own works. The Government has the tendency to abuse these organisations. There has been lack of good practices in corporate governance. Let me begin with the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO). Over and over, we have said that the Government must leave ZESCO to operate like a commercial entity.

 

Just recently Madam, we are all aware that there is no board which exists at Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), I stand to be corrected, hon. Minister. Unless I am not aware but what I know is that there is no board. This is a position that you can correct hon. Minister in case I am behind. I am aware that the board is the one that appoints the directorate at ZESCO, I also know that that it is the board that dismisses the directorate at ZESCO.

 

However, what happened last week was very saddening concerning the dismissal of five directors. No wonder they cannot come out of this quagmire. In your response, hon. Minister, I would like you to tell me whether it was yourself who dismissed the five directors. Madam Chairperson, if it is him, he must explain this House where he got the statutory powers to dismiss them but if it is not him, I am sure there is somebody who signed the dismissal letters. And so, I would like to know who gave them that statutory power to dismiss those five directors.

 

This is like a broken record because these are not the first directors to be fired. It has on and on hence compromising the security of tenure of office which requires that the people in that office must have a settled mind. Even the people, who you are going to engage after firing these five directors, are not going to be operating without fear or favour. They will be operating to make sure that each time they discharge their functions, good or bad, each time they do something, they look at the minister’s gesticulation and posture, whether he is smiling or he is frowning, because it is at his whim that they remain in the job or they will be fired. We need to improve in that area.

 

ZESCO cannot improve in its current form. Right now we are at the deep end and we are failing to swim to the shore because the natural calamity of low rainfall for the past three years and low levels in the holding dam at Kariba. Now, in the midst this confusion, you just wake up and fire people without telling them what went wrong.

 

I know the Minister if new, but I would also like to find out from him who authorised the purchase of many second hand Toyota Hilux vehicles from South Africa or from wherever to that utility company?

 

I know for a fact that ZESCO provided transport to PF during the last elections.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: I know that for a fact. I know that Lusaka Water …

 

The Chairperson: Mr Nkombo, unless you are able to provide evidence …

 

Mr Nkombo: I can.

 

The Chairperson: If you have evidence then you can discuss that but if not then do not.

 

Please continue and bear that in mind.

 

Mr Nkombo: Thank you, Madam, I know for a fact, …

 

Mr Mutale: Lay it on the Table!

 

Mr Nkombo: … the truth has no disguise I will lay the evidence on the Table it is in electronic form I have even the number plates of the vehicles that ZESCO imported from South Africa.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: I am trying to assist the hon. Minister that he should not fall in the trap of his predecessors and I know he is decent enough that is why he is a minister. He is decent and those who have a bankruptcy of natural wisdom must continue questioning what I am saying because I have a job to do right now.

 

Mr Mutale: Question!

 

Mr Nkombo: There they go!

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Nkombo, you cannot refer to fellow Members of Parliament in that manner. You just cannot.

 

Mr Nkombo: I withdraw, Madam.

 

The Chairperson: Withdraw that.

 

Mr Nkombo: I withdraw.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nkombo: Hon. Minister, my advice to you is that please do not fall into that trap. Leave a legacy. The Minister must leave a legacy of someone who is focused. The reason why we are here is to provide checks and balances so that together we can benefits from the skills that God gave us in the people who are sitting on the your right hand side.

 

Mrs Mulyata: That is right!

 

Mr Nkombo: We will not just sit and watch them do the wrong things because we have a job to do.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I have already dealt with the natural factors that have put us in this situation. At the moment, we have been told that we are going to have above normal rainfall and we are quite certain that this pain that has been caused by load shedding is going to reduce.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question1!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Iwe Peter iwe!

 

Mr Nkombo: Hon. Minister, I heard you tal