DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 16th October, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR DEPUTY SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF UGANDA

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery of the following hon. Members and accompanying staff from the Parliament of Uganda:

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: 

Hon. Emmanuel Lumala Dombo, MP, Bunyole County East

Hon. Geoffrey Ekanya, MP, Tororo County

Ms Esther Mwambu, Deputy Editor of Hansard

Mr Hudson Okii, Principal Technician

Mr Peter Acuch, Senior Research Officer

Ms Julian Kaganzi, Principal Procurement Officer

Ms Annet Mpabulungi, UNDP Country Team Leader - Governance, Uganda.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

Thank you.

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

LAND POLICY

108. Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi) asked the Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection:

(a)    whether the Government had formulated any land policy; and

(b)    what measures the Government had taken to ensure that customary land is not indiscriminately allocated to private developers, thereby depriving the locals of communal land.

The Deputy Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection (Mr Chingimbu): Mr Speaker, currently, the Government has no document called a ‘Land Policy’. However, there are documents and circulars, such as the Administrative Circular, No. 1 of 1985 and the Lands Act of 1995, that the ministry has issued, which constitute a policy framework in the administration of land in the country. The formulation and development of a land policy document, which will integrate all the various circulars on land administration, awaits the conclusion of the on-going Constitution-making process.  

Mr Speaker, the Government has taken the following measures to ensure that customary land is not indiscriminately allocated to private developers, thereby depriving the locals of communal land:

(a)    there are various checks in the allocation of land in customary areas. Councils, the Office of the Commissioner of Lands and other related land agencies ensure that the local people are consulted before customary land is allocated. The councils are required to inspect the areas earmarked for allocation to ensure that the land is free for allocation while headmen are required to consult the local people before any customary land can be allocated. The chiefs only make recommendations to the councils on the allocation of land. If the councils or the Office of the Commissioner of Lands are not satisfied with the chiefs’ recommendations, the developers’ applications are not processed. Therefore, the chiefs’ authority to allocate land is not absolute but, rather, subject to checks by the stated institutions; 

(b)    the Lands Tribunal Act No. 39 of 2010 expanded the mandate of the Lands Tribunal to provide for local people to sue their headmen/chiefs if the customary land on which they reside is allocated without their consent; and

(c)    the Government, through my ministry, is in the process of introducing legislation that will guarantee security of tenure for land under customary areas. This will help families to protect ancestral land as well as other interests of the local people.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, we have seen that people are even able to kill others and countries have gone to war over land issues. Currently, this country is under siege from foreign investors who are being given huge tracts of land indiscriminately. If we gave the hon. Minister a very specific case of land being given without consultations with either the village headmen or the people concerned, what would he do? 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu) (on behalf of the Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection (Mr Kalaba)): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has indicated that there are institutions, such as the Lands Tribunal, that have been empowered to safeguard the rights of people who use customary or communal land for things like grazing and burying the dead. If the hon. Member has a specific case that he wants addressed, let him come to my office tomorrow and I will show him where the Lands Tribunal operates from so that the affected people can seek assistance there. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister made reference to the fact that the Lands Tribunal has been given a wider mandate, and that people can now sue their traditional leaders if their land ownership rights are infringed upon. Could he kindly reconcile that position with a statement that was made by the learned hon. Minister of Justice and Secretary-General of the Patriotic Front (PF), Mr Wynter Kabimba, SC., ODS, to the effect that the Ruling Party was coming up with a law that would confer traditional leaders with immunity from prosecution? What is the position of the Government on matters of this nature?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice did indicate, when he spoke to a gathering of traditional rulers, that the Government was considering granting them immunity from prosecution. However, considering something does not mean the same thing as actually doing it. We have not yet resolved to go in that direction. What the hon. Minister meant was that the issue would be considered. If found to be in conflict with the stated position of protecting the vulnerable in land acquisition and tenure, certainly, the idea will not see the light of day. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, what the hon. Minister has stated to this House is not what is on the ground. So, what tangible and practical interventions will the Government put in place to protect people, especially those in the rural areas, who are the most vulnerable, and are being displaced by the so-called investors, who are only interested in acquiring land? 

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the answer to this question is that we need to educate our people, both in urban and rural settings. It is because of a lack of education and ignorance that these things are being done. I believe that we have a duty, as hon. Members of Parliament elected by the people, to protect their interests. That is why I told Hon. Mucheleka to come and see me. If we all take an interest in the affairs of the people, our masters, the electorate, this problem would, certainly, not reach the current extent. The people could not be displaced quietly and their problem only known when it is too late. I would urge hon. Members to participate in our crusade to sensitise the people on their rights and how they can invoke them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister inform this House and the nation that, if you are aggrieved that your land ownership rights are violated, you can take the matter to the Lands Tribunal for determination. Is he not aware that the Lands Tribunal is a toothless institution that cannot order the cancellation of a certificate of title, and that the power to do so lies with the High Court, which has adjudicated on that matter?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I welcome the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central back to the House.

Hon. Opposition Member: Where was he?

Mr Lungu: Do you not know that he was out of the country?

Mr Speaker, the Lands Tribunal has been given a broader mandate in the recent past and this mandate supplements that of the High Court in the cancellation of land titles. 

Sir, when a title is issued, particularly for customary land, if the process was characterised by corruption or illegality, the Lands Tribunal, under its current mandate, can recommend the cancellation of title to the Commissioner of Lands. The Commissioner of Lands, who acts in the best interest of the people, then, issues an order that ought to be complied with.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, what advice can the hon. Minister give on the recent complaint by a chief in my constituency that there were two investors who had gone to the constituency and obtained title deeds to a piece of land without even involving the council? What should be done to those two investors?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, this is not the right forum to deal with individual land cases. The hon. Member should find time to engage the people in the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, who will advise him on how to proceed. I can also assist him to channel that complaint. If the process was riddled with corruption, he can go to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), which will, then, recommend the cancellation of the title and reversion of the land to the rightful owners to the Commissioner of Lands. That is why I said, earlier, that hon. Members should be with their people whenever they can. If they do not do this, they will always get to know the problems in their constituencies long after the damage has been done and it becomes difficult for the Government to help.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mumba (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, when will this proactive Government come up with a land policy, instead of administering land using circulars and other means?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has indicated that we were mindful of the on-going Constitution-making process. We do not want to do things that will be in conflict with the Constitution. As soon as the new Constitution has been put in place, we will develop a document that will encompass all the policies of the PF on land matters. However, the protection of the rights of the people to land ownership need not wait for that process to be concluded.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has referred to people’s ignorance on how to seek redress when they have been displaced. However, I want to let the hon. Minister know that most of the perpetrators of this scourge are Their Royal Highnesses, the chiefs. What is the ministry, together with the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, doing to sensitise chiefs on the importance of following the law in land administration?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I must admit that most of the complaints that we have received are caused by the chiefs. Therefore, we will call upon the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to assist us to help Their Royal Highnesses to appreciate their role as mere custodians of the people’s land, which they hold in trust. That is why there is a need for them to involve their headmen and the communities so that they can also help to determine whether the allocation of land to investors will be of benefit to them. It is true that the chiefs are the major culprits. However, I think, that arises from a lack of knowledge of the role they play in respect of holding land in trust on behalf of the people. If there were no people in these villages and settlements, then, there would be no chiefs. They are there because of their people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, does the Government have any plans to review the ownership of land by foreigners, that is, by stopping foreigners from owning land in Zambia?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, there are some people who are erroneously believed to be foreigners, probably, because of their foreign origin, such as Caucasians or Asians. Most people who own land, for example, in the Mkushi Farming Block are, actually, Zambians. However, the question of interest and importance to us is the ownership of land by foreigners, and I think that it is a worrying matter to indiscriminately give foreigners land because it can be exhausted and there will be no land for Zambians. 

Sir, I believe that there was a policy in the previous Government that enabled anyone with a business permit to acquire land. I think that many people got permits of residence and acquired land. There was also a time when it was said that, if you were a corporate entity established under the Laws of Zambia and domiciled in the country, you were eligible to acquire land. That is how some foreigners acquired land. However, I can safely say that the matter is very serious and this Government will look into it to preserve land for the indigenous people and only sparingly let it be given to foreigners.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, does the Government have any plans to take over the administration of all the land, including customary land? 

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I believe that the substantive hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection indicated, in his maiden speech, that we would carry out a countrywide land audit in order for the Government to take full control of the land available. The audit, which will also apply to customary land, will help us to know who owns what piece of land, where and for how long. In short, the Government has plans to take full control of the land in this country, whether under customary law or otherwise, by knowing what land is available under each quota. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, this is an important question which, if properly handled, can help many Zambians. 

Mr Muntanga: That is right.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I am particularly interested in part (b) of the question, which is about the indiscriminate allocation of land to foreign investors. The hon. Minister mentioned that councils and the Commissioner of Lands are there to provide checks and balances. I, however, find the process porous, especially because the chiefs do not include ...  

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, what is your question?

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell the House whether there are councils that have turned down land allocation requests from the chiefs. I believe that the councils are intimidated by the chiefs. 

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, when I was still practising law, I would have found such instances in my file. However, I know that we have many cases of this nature in the Lands Tribunal records. Several councils have been taken to court by either the chiefs or the investors because of refusing to let go of land. I had a big case, once, in which the council refused to let go of a piece of land because it was an ancestral burial ground. People put up a very big fight and the land was spared. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, like Hon. Mbulakulima said, this is a very important question. This problem really saddens me because I am personally affected.

Mr Speaker, why does the Government, particularly, the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, not take action on some investors? For instance, one investor in Rufunsa Constituency has obtained over 50,000 hectares of land and, despite going to the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, the Commissioner of Lands and the Permanent Secretary, no action …

Mr Deputy Speaker: I think that you have asked your question. 

The hon. Minister may answer. 

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, that is the question. Why do they not take action when a matter is reported to the ministry? 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

That is why I asked the hon. Minister to respond. 

Hon. Minister, you may answer. 

Mr Lungu: I thank you, Sir. 

I hope that …

Interruptions 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Lungu: Are you interested in the answer?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Please, address the Chair. 

Mr Lungu: Sir, I sincerely hope that the hon. Member has no personal interest in this matter. That said, if he knows more about the issue, he should see me tomorrow, as I am still Acting Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. We will try to help. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Speaker, from one of the hon. Minister’s responses, I understand that the Government is in the process of inviting all chiefs countrywide to educate them on their role in giving out land. What will happen in situations in which a chief has already given out land? Will the Government reverse the situation?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, there are some historical wrongs that can be corrected, and others that cannot. Therefore, depending on whether the wrong can be corrected within the acceptable perimeters of justice, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

Mr Lungu: … it will be corrected. However, some wrongs may just call for compensation because they cannot be reversed. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, what step will the Government take to help put customary land on title so that it is protected, as is the case in the Western Province? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Sir, subject to what I said concerning the formulation of land policies and documenting them, it is indicated in our manifesto that we want to promote some form of security of tenure of customary land, which will allow people to have access to finances …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

There are too many people talking. The hon. Minister cannot be heard. I cannot hear him. Please, consult quietly. 

You may continue, hon. Minister.
 
Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, in our manifesto, under land development, we talk about customary and State land. One of the things we want to embark on, in due course, is the promotion of security of tenure of customary land in rural areas by introducing land record cards, which will define the rights of occupants and, thereby, protect them. Therefore, this is something we can engage each other on and come up with a way of protecting people’s interests. 

I thank you, Sir. 

KAOMA SCHOOLS

109. Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    when the construction of a new secondary school in Kaoma Central Parliamentary Constituency would commence;

(b)    when the Government would provide text books to all primary schools in the constituency; and 

(c)    when more lecturers would be sent to Kaoma Trades Training Institute.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions 

Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister cannot be heard. Can we, please, consult quietly so that we do not drown him out. 

You may continue, hon. Deputy Minister. 

Mr Mabumba: Sir, I thank you for your protection. 

Mr Speaker, a new secondary school will only be considered in Kaoma Central Parliamentary Constituency in future Infrastructure Development Plans (IDPs) because, currently, there are no funds available to undertake the project. The hon. Member of Parliament is, however, encouraged, as we have said many times on the Floor of this House, to liaise with the Provincial Education Officer (PEO) and identify a strategically-located basic school in Kaoma that could be upgraded into a secondary school in 2014. 

Sir, the Government has been disbursing funds for the procurement of teaching and learning materials. This is an on-going undertaking in which K15 million has been disbursed to seven of the ten provinces in 2013. The provinces that have, so far, been funded include Luapula, Lusaka, Muchinga, the North-Western, Southern and Western. The ones that remain unfunded are the Central, Copperbelt and Eastern provinces. 

Sir, Kaoma Trades Training Institute has sixty-eight students, six teaching staff and twenty-two support staff. The total establishment, including the principal, is twenty-nine. 

Mr Speaker, looking at the number of students at the institute, the overall instructor-to-student ratio stands at 1:11, which is very low in contrast with the national standard of 1:20. We, therefore, need to improve the enrolment rates in order to justify any increase in the teaching staff. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Antonio: Mr Speaker, I have visited my constituency several times and, when I went to Kaoma Secondary School, which is the only secondary school, I noticed that over seventy pupils were in one classroom.  How does the Government plan to de-congest those classrooms? 

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, I totally agree with the hon. Member of Parliament’s observations because I have also visited the school. Apart from visiting Kaoma Secondary school, I also visited one strategically-located basic school in Kaoma Boma, which we could transform into a secondary school to de-congest Kaoma Secondary School. The hon. Member is requested to liaise with the PEO before it is too late so that Mulamatila Basic School is transformed into a secondary school in 2014.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

MWINILUNGA HEALTH FACILITIES

110. Mr Katuka (Mwinlunga) asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health:

(a)    when qualified personnel would be sent to the following health facilities in Mwinilunga District:

(i)    Kanyama Rural Health Centre;

(ii)    Kakoma Rural Health Centre;

(iii)    Chiwoma Rural Health Centre;

(iv)    Chibwika Rural Health Centre; and 

(v)    Kanzenzi Health Post; and

    (b)    when the facilities at (ii) to (iv) would be rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Ms Kapata): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank my brother, the hon. Member for Mwinilunga, ...

Mr Mucheleka: Who is your brother?

Ms Kapata: He is my brother.

Mr Livune: Question!

Ms Kapata: I come from Mwinilunga. So, he is my brother. 

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. 

I think that you are inviting a lot of problems for yourself, hon. Minister. Can you, please, answer without engaging in a conversation with other hon. Members.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, thank you for the guidance.

Sir, Kanyama Rural Health Centre has one Zambia Enrolled Nurse; Kakoma Rural Health Centre had one Zambia Enrolled Nurse who, unfortunately, was chased by the community without our knowledge. We are making efforts to replace him; Chibwika Rural Health Centre has one retired Environmental Health Technician; Chiwoma Rural Health Centre had a Zambia Enrolled Nurse, who died and we have requested for a replacement; and Kanzenzi Rural Health Centre has two community Health Assistants.

Mr Speaker, we have received Treasury authority to recruit health personnel before the end of this year and we will prioritise Mwinilunga District. 

Sir, under the 2013 Infrastructure Operational Plan (IOP), only Chiwoma Rural Health Centre was included for rehabilitation and extension at a cost of K185,503. Kakoma and Chibwika rural health centres will be considered under the 2014 IOP, funds permitting.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, the staffing challenges in Mwinilunga, just like any other area, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I am not sure whether the hon. Minister is getting the question. Why do we not pay attention, for once, so that the person on the Floor can be heard? 

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, I was saying the staffing situation in Mwinilunga, just like any other district in the province, is pathetic, yet we have three nursing schools in the province. Is it possible for the Government to have a deliberate programme of retaining some of the students who graduate from the three schools in the province so that we improve on the staffing levels in those rural health centres?

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I have already mentioned that we have been given Treasury authority to recruit health personnel. It will not auger well for trained people to be retained in that province because other provinces also need their services.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, a nurse at one of the health centres was chased by the community and efforts are being made to replace that officer. Has the Government found out the reason this nurse was chased from that rural health centre by the community?

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Those loud consultations at the back are worrying me. Hon. Deputy Ministers, can you consult quietly, please.

Continue, hon. Deputy Minister.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, we have information that the male nurse who was chased was a drunkard. Therefore, the community could not work with him.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the area we are talking about is my sister, the hon. Deputy Minister’s home. Could she tell us how many of the health personnel she has received Treasury authority to recruit will to be posted to Mwinilunga District, which includes Ikeleng’i?

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I know that the number of health workers to be recruited this year is about 952. Out of the 952,140 will be registered nurses, 140 registered midwives, thirty enrolled nurses and thirty enrolled midwives, but I cannot say how many will be sent to Mwinilunga District. We will send nurses as the need arises.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ng’onga: Well done.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, what incentives is the Government putting in place to encourage health workers to remain in rural areas?

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, we have what we call the Rural Hardship and Rural Retention allowances, which are given to health workers to make them comfortable in the rural areas where they work.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I have heard the hon. Deputy Minister, who is a sister to Hon. Katuka from another mother, ...

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: ... mention that the recruitment of personnel will be done this year. What will happen in the event that the ministry fails to recruit, this year, considering that the Government has decided to effect a recruitment freeze for the next two years?

Mr Muntanga: She does not have the answer.

Mr Sikazwe: Question!

The Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Dr Katema): Mr Speaker, the recruitment moratorium does not include personnel for the health, education and other essential sectors. Rest assured that the recruitment of health personnel will continue this year, next year and the years to come, as said by the hon. Deputy Minister.
 
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised, and I think that the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central indicated first. 

You may raise your point of order, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me the opportunity to raise this serious point of order. 

Sir, is the hon. Minister in order to contradict the Budget Speech delivered by the hon. Minister of Finance, in which he informed this House and the nation that there would be a recruitment freeze? In his speech, the hon. Minister of Finance did not provide for any exceptions to the recruitment moratorium. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: I think that it is important that this issue is cleared. Since the hon. Minister of Finance is around, can he shed light on the matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Minister of Finance: (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, if you can bear with me, I am very constrained to make a comment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I understand that you are constrained, but it is important that the people out there and the House know. I request that you come up with a statement to clarify the issue by tomorrow.

Mr Chikwanda: Yes, Sir.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Can the hon. Member for Katombola continue, please.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, the nurse-patient ratio in Zambia is very high. What is the PF Government’s policy on this issue?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, we have already mentioned, in our answers, that we will continue to …

Mr Muntanga: Recruit.

Dr Katema: … recruit, …

Laughter

Dr Katema: … train and position personnel in our health institutions to lower the ratio we are talking about. This is what we are doing.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has made reference to the recruitment that will take place before the end of the year. Can he shed some light …

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Dr Katema, whose ministry’s nomenclature is, sometimes, difficult to mention, but is responsible for rural health facilities, in order not to answer my question concerning the nurse-patient ratio? To repeat, according to the PF Manifesto, what is the satisfactory nurse-patient ratio?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, are you able to respond to that point of order?

Hon. Opposition Members: It is a point of order.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Yes, I am aware that it is a point of order and I am making a ruling. I want the hon. Minister to answer. 

Hon. Minister, are you able to answer or not?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, that is a totally new question, but he does …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: That is the answer. It is a new question.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Can the hon. Member for Nalikwanda, who was on the Floor, continue, please.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that the hon. Minister made reference to the recruitment of 952 personnel, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … this year.

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

However, this is the last point of order I am allowing.

Laughter

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. 

Sir, football is very important to this nation, to the extent that Zambians celebrated a loss to Brazil yesterday.

Laughter

Ms Kalima: That shows you how important football is and how important the players are, too.

Sir, on Monday, in the Times of Zambia Newspaper, there was this headline, “Kalaba, Sunzu and Sinkala Face Arrest.”

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Ms Kalima: Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to keep quiet and not inform this House, exactly, what happened to Kalaba, Sunzu and Sinkala, who are important to the sporting fraternity in this nation? It was reported in the newspaper that the trio jetted in and left the country without clearance by the Immigration Department, which act bordered on threatening the security of this nation. The people are very anxious to know what happened to their top-class players and I have waited, since Monday, to get a statement on the matter.

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: You have adequately debated your point of order.

Can the hon. Member for Nalikwanda continue, please.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that the Minister made reference …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … to the recruitment of 952 health personnel, this year, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and we have two months before the end of the year. Can he enlighten the House and the nation, as a whole, how far the recruitment process has gone.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, the health personnel will come from our training institutions. So, he should rest assured that we will recruit them from there before the end of this year. It is not difficult to recruit health personnel from the training institutions.

Hon. Opposition Members: When?

Dr Katema: You will have them before the end of the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has continued to tell us that he will solve the staffing problem by recruiting more health personnel. However, that statement contradicts the recruitment moratorium announced by hon. Minister of Finance, who says that he is constrained to clarify the matter. The two hon. Ministers are in the same Cabinet, yet they are failing to harmonise their positions. What will the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health do when it dawns …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! 

Mr Muntanga: It is not a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I know that it is not a point of order, but I want to guide.

In light of my earlier decision to ask the hon. Minister of Finance to come and shed some light on this issue tomorrow, I think that we should wait for that clarification from him.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I hope …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: … that I am not going against your ruling. 

Sir, can the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health confirm whether he has got Treasury authority to recruit the 952 health workers this year, since we are talking about this year?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament for Mumbwa was attentive enough, he would have heard my hon. Deputy Minister say that we have received the Treasury authority.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

MILENGE DISTRICT HOSPITAL

111. Mr Mbulakulima asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    when Phase I of the Milenge District Hospital would be opened to the public; and

(b)    when an ambulance would be provided to the hospital.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, Phase I of the construction of Milenge District Hospital, comprising the theatre and X-ray block, maternity wards, a kitchen and a laundry has not yet been completed, ...

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I have a problem hearing the hon. Minister. Hon. Members on my left, please, consult quietly.

Continue, hon. Deputy Minister.

Mr Mulenga: … hence, it cannot be opened to the public. The works on Phase I were being carried out by Mwasika Construction Limited. However, due to the poor performance by this contractor, the Government terminated the contract and moved on to the construction of Phase II, which comprises wards, the out-patient department, administration, mortuary and staff houses. The contractor, T&H Eminence Limited commenced works in January, 2013, and, so far, 55 per cent of the works have been completed. Phase I will be re-tendered together with Phase III in 2014. The hospital is scheduled to open in 2015.

Sir, the Government has procured 208 ambulances, of which six have already arrived in the country while the rest are in transit. When all have been received, one will be sent to Milenge District.

I thank you, Sir.

SOLWEZI/CHINGOLA ROAD

112. Mr Katuka asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    whether the Government had any plans to reduce traffic congestion on the Solwezi/Chingola Road; and

(b)    when the road would be converted into a dual-carriage way.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr M. H. Malama): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to reduce congestion on the Solwezi/Chingola Road by turning it into a dual-carriage way. The Road Development Agency (RDA) received proposals for the techno-economic study, detailed engineering design and tender document preparation for the upgrading to dual-carriage way of the T005/Chingola/Solwezi/Mutunda Road, which is about 205km, and the T003/Chingola/Chililabombwe/Kasumbalesa Road, which is about 45km, on Friday, 11th October, 2013. What this means is that the tendering for the two projects is being done at the same time. 

Sir, the evaluation of the proposals is now underway and, once completed, a consultant will be engaged for twelve months. The works on the dual-carriage way are expected to commence after conclusion of the study and subsequent engagement of a contractor.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise this point of order. I have known Hon. Mwaliteta from childhood. So, I do not harbour any malice against him. However, is he in order to wear a wig that is similar to Hon. Limata’s?

Sir, I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: No, he is not wearing a wig. He has very beautiful hair.

Hon. Katuka, continue.

Laughter

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answer he has given.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Please, be a bit louder, hon. Member.

Mr Katuka: However, can he tell me under which programme the Government has put the Chingola/Solwezi Road because it does not appear in the famous Link Zambia 8,000 Project.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, what should comfort the hon. Member is that the tender process has commenced. I invite the hon. Member, who usually visits my office, to come and find out the programme under which this project is because, right now, I do not have that information. Furthermore, as we wait for the works to commence, there is a contractor who is currently carrying out some maintenance work on the same road.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the elaborate answers. 

Sir, the Chingola/Solwezi Road has been given to a contractor called Road Pave, whose contract to work on the Mwinilunga Road was terminated due to poor workmanship. As someone from the North-Western Province, I wonder why he has been …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Your preface is too long. What is your question?

Mr Lufuma: Sir, what is the Government doing to ensure that a competent contractor, who will execute the work efficiently, is assigned to work on the road?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, maintenance works are currently on-going on the road. I am not aware that this contractor had a contract terminated somewhere. However, the information that the hon. Member is bringing up is quite important and I will follow it up to confirm it and also monitor the quality of the contractor’s work to ensure that it meets the required standard.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, is the road being worked on just because Hon. Mulusa walked from Chingola to Solwezi or is it a normal process? Maybe, I can also walk from Livingstone to Ngweze in order to have the Simonga/Ngweze Road tarred.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member for Chadiza.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, there is information to the effect that the contractor who was engaged to work on the Chingola/Solwezi Road is incompetent. Are road contractors single-sourced or do they compete for contracts?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the Government did not single-source the contractor. In fact, most of the works going on are advertised. It could be that the hon. Member does not see these advertisements in the newspapers. Otherwise, the competition for contracts is stiff.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, considering the state of that road and its economic value to our country, would it not be prudent for the Government to resurface it, instead of patching it up? It is only 163km long. Further, how long will the patching take to reach Solwezi?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, part of the road will be resurfaced. As for how long it will take to patch it, my response is that the works on the road commenced in March, 2013, and are expected to be completed in October, 2014.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, in response to the follow-up question by Hon. Katuka on why the road is not on the Link Zambia 8,000 Project, the hon. Minister invited Hon. Katuka to go to his ministry. Can the hon. Minister state whether there are some trunk roads that are being worked on outside the Link Zambia 8,000 Project.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, I am sorry, I cannot confirm that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Sir, the hon. Minister is answering very well. He is one of the few hon. Ministers in the PF who answer questions well. So, I would like him to tell me why the other hon. Ministers do not answer like him.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Sir, I am asking him to explain to me why other hon. Ministers do not answer questions on the Floor of this House like he is answering.

Laughter 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Next question.

UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA CALENDAR CHANGE FROM SEMESTERS TO TERMS

113. Mr Mucheleka asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education what necessitated the change in the academic calendar of the University of Zambia (UNZA) from the semester to the term system.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, UNZA had operated under the term system from its inception to the 1995/1996 Academic Year, when the Senate decided to migrate to the semester system. Under the semester system, the academic year is divided into two terms, whereas, under the term system, the academic year is divided into three connected terms and the courses run throughout the year.

Mr Speaker, there were a number of challenges experienced in the implementation of the semester system. So, in 2012, the Senate decided to revert to the term system with effect from the 2013 Academic Year. The change was meant to achieve the following:

(a)    registration to be done only once in a year, rather than twice;

(b)    students to have enough time to assimilate course materials, write examinations with confidence and minimise the high failure rate under the semester system;

(c)    more time for industrial attachment of students at the end of the academic year, which was not practicable under the semester system; and

(d)    more time for teaching staff to conduct research and write course modules, which was not feasible under the semester system.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, one of the reasons the Senate decided to change to the semester system was to reduce stress and the agony of having to revise and study material for months on end. However, the reasons that the hon. Minister has given do not take the interests of the students into account. Is the hon. Minister saying that he is encouraging incompetence at UNZA by way of reverting to the term system, which was discarded in the 1995/1996 Academic Year?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, if my hon. Colleague had listened attentively to what I said, he would have heard me say that, in fact, the new system will make UNZA run more competently. Under the semester system, lecturers did not have adequate time for research work, which is very vital in developing course manuals and effective lecturing at UNZA. Further, the students did not have enough time for industrial attachment at the end of the semester. Therefore, this change is beneficial to the students because it affords them a longer time for industrial attachment, which affords them the opportunity to acquire practical skills.

Mr Speaker, research is very important for UNZA and all other institutions. In fact, even the university where I went to in Europe followed the term system. So, I think that it is important to harmonise the practices at UNZA with those obtaining in universities in Western countries.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the argument that research will be conducted more once the university reverts to the term system is totally incorrect because the most productive universities, in terms of research, run on semester systems. Is the hon. Minister ... Sorry, can the hon. Minister inform this House correctly because American universities, for example, which are more productive, in terms of research, …

Mr Deputy Speaker: I have a problem following you, hon. Member for Nalikwanda. What is your question?

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister correct to mislead us that a university would be more productive in research if it followed the term system?

Laughter 

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister said that one of the many benefits of returning to the term system would be more time for lecturers to undertake research and consultancy. However, let me emphasise on why the return to the term system was made. In doing so, I am not attempting to demean the University Council, its autonomy and its decisions.

Mr Speaker, I still feel that, when the university decided to adopt the semester system, not much work was done to prepare for it. One of the major benefits of the semester system is its flexibility in terms of courses. However, that was not realised in full in many courses. You may want to take some course in the first semester, but the course is only offered in the second semester. The other major difficulty that the university faced was time. In particular, the registration exercise was always overlapping into the time for lectures, examinations and processing of examination results. In many cases, lecturers were not ready with the results by the beginning of a new semester. This is one of the reasons that the university advanced in proposing to go back to the term system. In the proposed system, once a student registers for one course, it will run for three terms and not force them to re-register in the course of the year. 

Sir, I know it is laborious, but I must repeat that what Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa has said might or might not be one of the advantages of either the semester or term systems. Much depends on other factors, such as resource availability and the enthusiasm of the lecturers to actually undertake research and consultancy. So, both systems have advantages and disadvantages. Universities have adopted either the semester or term system, but much depends on the management and the decisions that each university makes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I need clarification from the hon. Minister. In light of what he has just said, is it not true that you reverted to the term system solely in the interests of the lecturing staff and the administration as opposed to those of the students?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, let me emphasise one essential point. Decisions of this nature are made by a university council. So, when the hon. Member says, “You reverted”, it is not correct. We have no authority over the matter, as a ministry. The University Council, through the Senate, makes these decisions. In making the decision, they took the interests of the teaching staff, workers and students into account. However, not everybody will be happy with any system because both systems, as I said, have advantages and disadvantages. However, the Senate came to the conclusion that returning to the term system would be more beneficial for UNZA. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, is it not too expensive for the student …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the chance to rise on a point of order. 

Sir, is the PF Government in order to hold the people of Mulobezi, Malambo and Petauke constituencies to ransom by keeping them without representation in Parliament for more than ninety days? We are now in the Budget Sitting for which they need representation. The people in those constituencies have not done anything to deserve what is happening to them. Now that their situation has gone beyond ninety days, is the Government in order not to come and explain the situation to this House? 

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Deputy Speaker: I think that the matter is in court and, therefore, it would be sub judice . 

Hon. Member for Senga Hill, you may continue.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, is the term system, as compared with the semester system, not more expensive for the student in terms of tuition fees? 

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, when the university advises the ministry, which is the main funder, we will know whether the term system is more expensive than the semester system. So far, we have not been advised on the changes UNZA will require us to make in terms of tuition and other fees.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, was there any situation analysis undertaken before the decision to change from the semester to the term system was reached?

Dr Phiri: The Council assured the ministry that extensive consultations were made with both the teaching staff and the students, through their representatives. So, we are very satisfied that this decision was reached after everything was thought through.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima: Hon. Minister, you have just mentioned that …

Dr Kalila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima: … that … that ... that ...

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for granting me the opportunity to raise this point of order. 

Sir, this is a procedural point of order based on a set precedent. Is the House in order not to consider the point of order raised by Hon. Mutelo on the lack of representation for the people of Mulobezi, Malambo and Petauke on account of the matter being in court when rulings have been made to the effect that this House is fairly capable of making its own rules, conducting its business and making decisions without being constrained by processes in the other arms of the Government?

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Yes, it is in order. Precedents do not bind my rulings. There are times when precedents are not final. In this case, you know that the issue is in court and, therefore, it would be sub judice to discuss it. 

The hon. Member for Chembe may continue.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, in his question, the hon. Member for Senga Hill wondered whether the term system was not more expensive for the student compared with the semester system. In his answer, the hon. Minister stated that he had not yet been advised by the Senate, yet the new system has already been implemented and the cost implications are known. When will the Senate inform the ministry, or is it irrelevant to the equation?

Mr Livune: That is right.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, this is 2013 and the first intake is just about to report. The university has not communicated to the ministry, which funds it, that there will be additional funds needed because of the change. So, we think that we should wait until we are communicated to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, the UNZA Council has adopted the term system. Is that the position of the ministry for all the public universities? I would like him to clarify that.

Dr Phiri: I beg your pardon. Could you, please, repeat the question, hon. Member.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

It is not for you to ask him to repeat. You have to ask through me.

Laughter

Dr Phiri: I was asking you to re-communicate, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Ikeleng’i, please, repeat your question.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker,  … 

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education in order not to pay attention when questions are being posed to him and, then, say that he did not get the question? Is he in order to drag this House into having to ask an hon. Member to repeat a question?

Mr Deputy Speaker: That point of order, really, serves to remind us that, when questions are being asked, we should pay attention. The Chair used discretionary powers to request an hon. Member to repeat a question. However, I must add that, please, when questions are being asked, let us pay attention.

Continue, Hon. Muchima.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, will that decision be peculiar to UNZA or will it apply to all other public universities?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the decision to shift from the semester to the term regime was made by the Council of UNZA. Any other university will use its own council or senate to advise on the matter. In other words, currently, the policy is peculiar to UNZA.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Nangoma!

Mr Livune: … that each term requires students to register and pay fees.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, one of the advantages of the term system is that registration and everything else are done at the beginning of the first term of the year. Whatever is done in other terms is just meant to, maybe, improve on the initial registration. Every term is not accompanied by a separate registration process.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, one of the answers the hon. Minister gave earlier was that, after the UNZA Council had advised him on the expenses of switching to the new system, he would take action. Is it not the duty of his ministry to make decisions that are in the best interest of the students, considering the fact that they will pay more in the term system? If you buy anything in small quantities, at the end, you will pay more. Would it not have been better for the hon. Minister to realise that the students will pay more money in the term system than they used to during the semester system, and that his decision would have been required from the beginning of the process without waiting for the Council to advise him?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the running of universities, though it has been politicised over a number of years, should remain the sole jurisdiction of a university council, which is the employer and final decision-maker on all matters. It has organs under it, and one of them is the Senate, which helps it to run all the academic aspects. That said, let me also say that the change of regime has taken effect this year. The first-year students have reported and, this far, the university has not communicated to us on whether there are additional monetary demands being made on them. One would comfortably feel that there will be no changes or, at least, not major ones.

Interruptions

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, it is not for the ministry to follow the Council but, rather, the other way round. The Council advises us because we are the source of their grants. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just explained that he has not been informed whether there has been any change in monetary demands on the students. Suppose there will be an incremental change, what will the ministry do?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the Government policy is not based on speculations. When we have the information, we will advise on what the ministry will do about it. Speculating might not bring any joy or glory to the system that we, as a Government, fervently want to protect.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF MILENGE POLICE STATION

114. Mr Mbulakulima asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    when the Government would commence the construction of Milenge District Police Station; and

(b)    what had caused the delay in constructing the police station.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, the Government will commence the construction of Milenge District Police Station once a piece of land has been secured and funds are made available, through the IDP that the ministry will implement.

Mr Speaker, the commencement of the construction of Milenge Police Station has been delayed due to the non-availability of funds and a piece of land on which to build it.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I think that it is common knowledge that a place like Milenge has abundant land. There cannot be a shortage of land. Let the hon. Minister give a more reasonable answer. This is why I complain that the answers that we get do not measure up to the expected standard. However, let me ask a question in form of advice. I will forgive Hon. Edgar Lungu because he is a new hon. Minister.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

That is why I also complain.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I complain because you do not ask questions. You want to preface your questions with statements. I give you time to make your brief statement but, then, you make it long. Therefore, please, go ahead with your question, hon. Member for Chembe.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, yes, I will, and it will be in the form of advice. Can the hon. Minister kindly go and check what the former and late hon. Minister answered when I first asked this question.

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely. 

Sir, are Hon. Dr Kasonde, Hon. Chikwanda and Hon. Dr Phiri in order to isolate themselves from their colleagues, …

Laughter

Mr Livune: … especially considering that they are nominated hon. Members of this House? Are they in order to sit where they are seated in isolation? 

I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Katombola, I will not give you permission to raise another point of order.

Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Chembe may continue.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I said that this is a follow-up question to one I had asked the late Hon. Sakeni, who had given me a specific answer. Is the answer that the hon. Minister has given me today in line with what the late hon. Minister stated? Can you go and check what the answer provided by the late hon. Minister was.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, Milenge was declared a district many years ago. We acknowledge the challenges that our officers who are currently serving in the district have been facing for more than twenty years. However, the PF Government has seen that it is not only Milenge that requires the services of the police. That is why we have come up with the IDP that we have been talking about. I have followed up the question and the response that was given to the hon. Member, and our responses have been consistent. He should just be assured that, this time around, there is a serious Government in place, which is committed to providing police services to members of the public in all the districts of the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, the Government has been talking about the IDP for many months now. Since the year is coming to an end, will the IDP still be circulated to hon. Members of Parliament so that they know when police posts and stations will be constructed in their areas?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, there is a high demand for these facilities. Therefore, we are required to take a comprehensive approach. We will let the hon. Members know how its phases will be implemented when the programme has been finalised. It is, therefore, not possible for me to give the exact date and timeframe that the hon. Member has asked for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, in the case of Milenge, if land is availed to the ministry, when can a police station be built there?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, just as you advised us to pay attention when questions are being posed, our colleagues should also pay attention when we respond …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister.

It is not for you to say that. I recall that my advice was that everybody should pay attention. So, do not put words into my mouth.

Please, continue.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, during my response to the question, I indicated that it was not only the lack of land that was hindering the construction of a police station in Milenge, but also the non-availability of funds. So, when land is given and funds are available, the works will commence. However, in the meantime, we are providing services in other areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, what is the rationale behind rushing to create many districts when we are not ready to put in place the necessary infrastructure? Milenge has been a district for, I think, close to ten years and we have also created thirty new districts. How long will it take to put up the required infrastructure in these districts?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Well, if you read the question, it has nothing to do with the creation of districts. I should not answer for the hon. Minister but, really, that question is outside the context of the principal question.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that one of the challenges the Government is facing is a lack of funds. Is he in a position to send the required manpower to areas where hon. Members of Parliament decide to build these police posts using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF)?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Member for that question. Indeed, it is possible, and we have stated, time and again, on the Floor of the House, that hon. Members who intend to help put up infrastructure should come to the ministry, through the Zambia Police Force, so that we plan together. We will give them the specifications and designs of the infrastructure. They should come on board so that we start things together. We should not have a situation in which hon. Members build structures that they think would be suitable for police operations but, when we inspect, we find that the structures are not suitable. So, we advise hon. Members who are ready to engage us to come forward so that we plan together and put up this infrastructure. After that, we will provide the manpower.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Milenge, Hon. Mbulakulima, and his people have always been willing to assist in constructing a police post in the constituency. However, his constituency is the most unfortunate in Luapula …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, ask your question.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, considering that he has the most unfortunate constituency in Luapula, which has not been give the CDF, will the Government allow him access to that fund so that he assists the people of Milenge to construct a police post?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I think that answers have been provided on the Floor of this House to questions about how the CDF has been used elsewhere in constructing police posts. Indeed, if Milenge has not received its CDF, it is at liberty to utilise part of that money to get the police post done when it does. Mwandi Constituency, for example, has never had a police station or post for forty-nine years, but the hon. Member of Parliament and the community helped us to find land and funds were made available. In two years, we have built a police post in conformity with police standards. That police post will be ready to be commissioned in a few weeks time. So, all we are saying is that we should work together. We can use the CDF or other funds from the Treasury. We mean well for every part of this country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the Government has an IDP. However, when prodded by Hon. Katuka to provide us with that plan, he said that he did not know the timeframe and even the cost involved. Is what the Executive has been saying about the plan mere speculation or just intentions or wishes? We need to know whether there is currently no plan in place so that we stop expecting it.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we cannot roll an IDP out without involving the Ministry of Finance. What we are saying is that, we have a plan to implement when the funds are disbursed. Above all, we know where police posts and houses should be built, subject to funds and land being available. That is an IDP. So, I do not know what the hon. Members want. If it is a plan of how we intend to develop police infrastructure countrywide that you want, it can be made available. Hon. Members just have to come to my office. 

Sir, the Zambia Police Force has got plans to build stations in all districts, particularly, the newly-created ones. The police stations to be built will be of a standard befitting a district. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am grateful that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs acknowledges the presence of a plan, and the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that the PF was a strong party. So, what is the problem in giving hon. Members of Parliament the tentative plan for ten or five years, which should show places where the police stations will be built, regardless of the fact that the Government is unable to build them now?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the IDP …

Interruptions

Mr Lungu: ... in the area of policing this country is developed by the Police Command. There is a planning unit in the Zambia Police that caters for the whole country. There is a plan in place and, subject to the availability of funds, it will be rolled out. However, if the hon. Members are really keen, I can liaise with the police to make this plan available.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I got concerned …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to rise on this point of order.

Sir, is it in order for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to speak to himself every time he stands up? We cannot hear what he is saying.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I did not get the impression that he was talking to himself. Maybe, what the hon. Member wants is for the hon. Minister to speak a little loudly, which is right. However, there are two sides to the same coin when somebody is speaking. The person speaking needs to be loud enough to be heard while the people listening need to be attentive enough to hear the speaker. If those who are supposed to listen consult each other loudly when someone is answering, they cause this problem whereby those who are farther from the one speaking fail to hear what is being said. Let us take that into account.

Continue, Hon. Mbewe.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I was saying that I am concerned about the hon. Minister’s response that the IDP would roll out, especially to the new districts. Should the provision of infrastructure not be done on a first-come, first-served basis? There are some ‘old’ districts that do not have police stations, such as Chadiza.

Hon. Opposition Member: And Milenge!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I hope that the hon. Members at the extreme end are hearing me. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Microphone!

Mr Lungu: I am just tall. So, the microphone is a bit low for me.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: I am taller than you.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the IDP has to be adjusted to conform to the realities on the ground and the needs of the newly-created districts. Some areas are in such a dire need of police posts that we have to prioritise them. We are not saying that a district that is created today will get police facilities next year. We are merely looking at the need. Some areas call for special urgent attention in the construction of police posts while others can do with support from nearby areas. There are some districts where we can benefit more from the presence of police facilities and others where we cannot.

Sir, we admit that there is a need for police presence countrywide but, in evaluating the needs, we will determine which area gets served first. It is not an issue of first-come, first-served. The fact that a district existed first does not mean that it will get a police station first.

I thank you, Sir. 

TARRING OF KAOMA/KASEMPA ROAD

115    Mr Antonio asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication:

(a)    when the tarring of the Kasempa/Kaoma Road would commence;

(b)    what the estimated cost of the project was; and 

(c)    what the duration of the project was. 

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

This is what I was saying. A point of order was raised about somebody not speaking loudly enough, and I said that, sometimes, it is not only because somebody is not speaking loudly, but also because people who consult each other do so louder than the person speaking and drown his or her voice. 

Can we, please, listen.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Order!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Thank you for reminding the Chair.

Laughter 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was responding to the question by Hon. Antonio. Let me start from the beginning.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Carlos …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Antonio.

Mr M. H. Malama: Sorry, Sir. Hon. Antonio is asking the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication ... (repeated the question).

Mr Speaker, the Government, through the RDA, is undertaking consultancy services for the techno-economic study, detailed engineering design and tender document preparation for the upgrading of 225km of the D301 Kasempa/Kaoma Road in the Western and North-Western provinces. The contract was signed on 5th September, 2013, and will be completed in April, 2014. Works to upgrade the road to bituminous standard will only commence after the finalisation of the study in the Fourth Quarter of 2014.

Mr Speaker, the cost and duration of the project will be known after the study has been completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to be very clear on the statement he has made. I think that I heard him say that the Government would undertake an economic and technical study of tarring that road. However, in the event that the study does not support the project, what will happen, considering that the Government has already informed the nation that it will tar the road?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, I do not think that we can have that kind of result because the terrain through which the road passes is not so bad that the consultant can say that it is not possible to tar the road. It is viable to tar the road because the terrain is good.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the question I asked related to the assessment of the economic value of the project. I asked whether the Government would continue with the project if the results of the economic study were not favourable. However, the answer he has given relates to the technical aspect of the project. Is he in order not to answer the specific question I asked?

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the question has not been answered, he is not in order. 

May you answer the question, hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the promise to tar the road pre-supposes a positive project assessment result. When the feasibility study has been undertaken, we will go by its findings.   

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, in the meantime, the road in question has some very bad patches. Is this Government planning to do some spot-gravelling on it?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, yes, I can confirm that there are plans to maintain that road.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, there are a number of factors that are considered ...

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. 

Sir, of late, we have been reading in the tabloids and daily newspapers about the former President of the Fourth Republican Party stating that there are people who have a militia in the PF, who want to cause trouble in this country. Is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to be so biased by keeping quiet about it? Is he in order not to arrest these people who are inflaming the situation and causing fear among the people of Zambia, when other people are being arrested for saying similar things?
 
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the statements are attributable to internal wrangling going on in a party, the Chair is unable to make any ruling. 

The hon. Member for Lupososhi may continue.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted, I was saying that there are a number of factors that are taken into account in feasibility studies, among them the economic benefits and technical challenges. Can the hon. Minister confirm that there are also political and social benefits that can compel the Government to tar the road, irrespective of the technical and economic factors.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, that is a very important question. Indeed, the Government will also look at social benefits when working on some of these roads, especially the road that we are talking about, which is important because it joins the Western and North-Western provinces.  

I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, if the techno-economic study has already been started, how long will it take for it to be completed so that the works on this road commence? If it has not started, when will it start?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the contract has already been awarded and the works will end in the First Quarter of 2014.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, has there been any study on the road other than the one the hon. Minister is talking about? I ask this because there is information on the Internet identifying the road as one of those that connect Solwezi to Walvis Bay in Namibia.  

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, I do not know of any study apart from the one I talked about.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has assured us that the Government will work on that road. In the event that the findings of the study do not support the decision, what will happen?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, those are just assumptions. We must avoid speculation and wait for the experts to tell us whether the project will fail or not. If it fails, we will, definitely, look at other alternatives.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

EDUCATION INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT

116. Mr Katuka asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    when funds allocated for infrastructure development for 2012/2013 would be disbursed; and

(b)    whether the ministry would meet its goals for infrastructure development for the period at (a).

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, funds for the infrastructure development for 2012 were received from the Ministry of Finance and disbursed in accordance with the Budget of the same year. 

Mr Speaker, as part of that disbursement, Mwinilunga District received K3,150,784 for community mode projects. Further, 74.2 per cent of funds for infrastructure development for 2013 have been received from the Ministry of Finance and have already been disbursed as follows: 

(a)    K389,100,000 has been received for the construction of secondary schools;

(b)    K65,443,195 meant for universities has been received and disbursed; and

(c)    K157,896,494 for the construction of District Education Board Secretaries’ (DEBS) offices, rehabilitation of secondary schools, construction of primary schools and teachers’ houses is still awaited. This balance will be disbursed to the budgeted activities in 2013 as soon as it is received. 

Mr Speaker, the ministry will meet its targets for budgeted-for activities, including infrastructure development, in the period stated in (a) above since funds have been received from the Ministry of Finance.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, will it be possible for all the money budgeted for this project to be released by the Ministry of Finance so that the project can be implemented before the end of 2013?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, I just stated that K157,896,499 remained to be disbursed for the construction of selected DEBS offices, primary schools and teacher’s houses, and rehabilitation of secondary schools. So, once these funds have been received, we will be able to implement the project and complete it in 2014.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Minister, and in the interest of fairness and equity, how are areas prioritised for construction of secondary schools, especially with regard to the planned construction of fifty-three secondary schools?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, we always prioritise areas that do not have the infrastructure. The construction of fifty-three secondary schools that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala has mentioned is an on-going project. So, in the future, we will also consider Mbala, which is a vast district. However, for now, we have prioritised those areas that do not have secondary schools. That is why we considered Pemba, Moomba, which is Hon. Mooya’s constituency, and other areas that were not considered in previous allocations. However, we take note of the hon. Member’s concern.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, concerning the community mode that the hon. Minister talked about, in areas where the communities are unable or refuse to participate, what will be done, considering that this seems to be the preferred way of allocating schools to some areas?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, I know that it will be difficult to get people to co-operate in some communities, but not all communities are unwilling to participate in the community project mode. First and foremost, it is cheaper for us, as a ministry and, secondly, there is ownership by the community when they participate in projects. Further, let me urge hon. Members of Parliament that, in a case in which we have the challenge of a community not willing to participate, it is our responsibility to use our negotiation and persuasive skills in those communities and make them understand the relevance of the community project mode. Otherwise, it might be very expensive for the ministry if our communities are not able to participate in the projects. So, hon. Members of Parliament can help the ministry, through our DEBS offices, to persuade the communities in their areas.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, as a Member of Parliament for a rural constituency, should I take it that we are so hated that there are always contractors on site for the infrastructure projects in towns, such as the building of schools, but we, the poor villagers, are told to contribute to the projects. As a result of that, workmanship is normally very poor. Are we so hated by this Government? We want to know so that we can consider re-locating?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Member could re-locate.

Laughter

Dr Phiri: However, his insinuation is not completely true. Let me assure this august House that the choosing of where to build secondary schools is a painstaking exercise for the ministry. It is not the headquarters that comes up with these sites because the process starts at the grassroots, district and the provincial levels before the plans are forwarded to the Headquarters. As we have said before, we are trying, as much as possible, to finish the many projects that were left by the late Government, oh, not the late Government, ... 

Laughter

Dr Phiri: … by the previous Government.

Mr Deputy Speaker: The Government does not die.

Laughter 

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, that is what came to my mind immediately I made that statement. Indeed, governments do not die.

Sir, K389,100,000 has gone towards the completion of the projects, including the community mode projects, although I know that some are outstanding. In our programmes, we have tried to give each province an equal number of schools. That should have been the case in the past, but it was not. However, we are not blaming anybody. Our approach will be that where there is the greatest need, we will try to think outside the box and do what is supposed to be done. We also recognise that the communities in rural areas are hard-pressed and already poor. So, asking them to contribute to projects is not humane. I am on record saying that we will discourage the community mode when building secondary schools. The time has come and we are thinking of converting 220 strategically-located basic schools into secondary schools. We expect the contractor mode to be used in all these projects. However, where a community is willing to contribute, who are we to stop it from doing that?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Member: Yes.

Dr Phiri: However, for the sake of our children and the quality of the buildings, we will encourage that contracts be not awarded at the national level. The money will go straight to the provinces and districts, which will determine the mode of construction.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much.

Laughter

Mr Miyanda: Mr Speaker, on the 220 projects that the hon. Minister talked about, did the ministry consult the people whom it has considered poor? If the hon. Minister had consulted them, they would have been willing to contribute. In fact, rural communities just receive directives on whether to use the contract or community mode. 

Mr Deputy Speaker: What is the question?

Mr Miyanda: Sir, can the hon. Minister agree that the modes to be used in the implementation of the projects are imposed on the communities by directives from the headquarters in Lusaka.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, we share the sentiments of the hon. Member of Parliament. So, we will try, as much as possible, to make progress through the contract mode. When I asked who we were to stop communities from participating in projects, I was, at the same time, seriously advocating for the contract mode. We will see how it goes and this House will be told how successfully the 220 projects will be implemented. We want to try that out next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, education in Zambia has favoured those along the line of rail, and the hon. Minister keeps dodging the issue of how the 220 basic schools to be upgraded into secondary schools will be distributed. Is there a deliberate policy to favour rural areas like Ikeleng’i, which is almost 1,000km away from Lusaka? 

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I do not know how many times I have stated this. The distribution of the 220 basic schools to be upgraded into day secondary schools will not be decided at the centre. There are serious consultations with the provincial administration and education offices throughout the country on how the schools will be identified and what will be done. We are transferring funds to the provinces and districts, which will decide the schools to upgrade. We will only play a supervisory role from Lusaka. One is tempted to say that each province will have the opportunity to identify twenty-two basic schools for upgrading. After the projects have been implemented, we will review them to see whether they would have seriously increased enrolment ratios at the secondary school level. We will also see which areas will have deficits, whether rural or urban. After lessons have been learnt, we will make another attempt to overcome the problem in 2015. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, the community mode is appreciated and, usually, communities are very willing to contribute. The issue, however, is with the guidelines. The distance that people have to travel to ferry sand and stones is another. Hon. Minister, do we see a revision of the guidelines so that they are more flexible and transportation can be provided by the State for rural communities to transport building materials from far-away places to the project sites?  

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I have stated that the community mode is not a preferred vehicle for building secondary schools. However, if there is a need for guidelines for communities that would like to help the Government, we can review and send them to various education offices in the provinces and districts. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, my question is also on the community mode projects.  

Mr Speaker, …

Mr Livune: That is right.

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: … when will the people of Kalabo …

Mr Livune: That is right!

Mr Miyutu: … experience the change of Government …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: … and know that they are now in the hands of a capable Government?

Mr Speaker, why can this Government not effect a drastic change by completely moving away from the community mode, which has seen many of the projects fail? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I did not know that Hon. Miyutu’s short stay with us has completely …

Laughter 

Dr Phiri: Please, do not reveal Government secrets. 

Laughter 

Dr Phiri: Hon. Miyutu is quite right by asking when the rural people will believe that there was a change of Government. In an attempt to make people realise that this Government is serious, we have increased access at the most critical stage of children’s education life, which is the secondary school level, by constructing schools as quickly as possible. Further, as already stated, we will upgrade twenty-two basic schools into secondary schools in the Western Province alone. I hope that Kalabo will get a share of those schools. 

Mr Speaker, the schools will be built or upgraded through the contract mode because we know that a secondary school built through the community mode never gets completed. 

Laughter 

Dr Phiri: Some of the schools being built through the community mode have not been completed since 2005, and we have learnt some lessons. We will avoid the pitfalls this time.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr I. Banda: Mr Speaker, a number of classroom blocks and day secondary schools that are in the 2012 IDP have not been built. In my constituency, for instance, the construction of Mwasempangwe Day Secondary School, which was in the IDP, has not taken off. What will the Government do with the huge backlog of projects from 2012?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that funds for the 2012 IDP were received by the ministry. However, that did not mean that the funds were sufficient for all the projects that needed to be implemented. Therefore, many of the projects will be transferred to next year for one good reason, which is that the allocation to the ministry has not significantly improved. We hope that this year’s Budget will be considerate. You will all agree with me that there is now a significant movement towards a reasonable allocation for us to finish all the projects, which we are committed to doing. Although we are still grappling with the projects for 2005, we are still confident that we will finish them, funds permitting. However, I want to dispel the notion that funds are not reaching us from the Ministry of Finance. According to our budget, the funds have been received, except for the balance that I talked about, which I know will be received. Even then, not all the projects on the ground will be completed because the allocations fall far short of what is required for all the projects to be implemented. However, I am grateful that this reminder has come from the hon. Member. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that Monze Central Constituency, which has both rural and urban parts, has never had a Government secondary school since Independence. Hon. Minister, taking into account that a plot is already available, are you considering constructing a Government secondary school in Monze? 

Dr Phiri: Ms Speaker, the Government much aware that Monze has depended on missionary education infrastructure. If this Government had the funds to build schools everywhere, it would have done so. However, there are areas where the missionaries have not built schools, meaning that our children in those areas do not have even a single school. So, the Government would rather prioritise those areas. However, that will be done without completely forsaking our people in Monze. To demonstrate our good will towards Monze, we have decided to build a school in some part of the district for the first time since Independence. We sympathise with the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central. When we decided that twenty-two schools be upgraded to secondary school status, we had that in mind. However, resources do not permit us to build schools everywhere we need them. Probably, the hon. Member could discuss with the provincial and district teams so that some of the schools in Monze Central could be upgraded so that we show the missionaries that we, as a Government, care.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the funds from the Ministry of Finance were not being released to his ministry. As a hard-working hon. Minister, could he consider resigning since his Government is not supporting him.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I was expecting you to defend me because records will indicate that I did not say what the hon. Member is purporting I said. I said that, in 2012, all the money that was budgeted for infrastructure projects and everything else was received from the Ministry of Finance, but it was not enough for the many developmental plans that we had. I also said that, this year, we have received K389 million for the construction of secondary schools. We have also received K65.5 million for universities and disbursed all that money. Where did the hon. Member get the notion that no money was received? What the hon. Deputy Minister said is that our ministry is still waiting for K157,896,499 for us to give to the districts and provinces for the construction of DEBS offices, primary schools and teachers’ houses, and rehabilitation of secondary schools. The Government works as a unit. That is why Hon. ‘Chivune’ said that some nominated hon. Members of Parliament had sat together and …

Laughter

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to mispronounce my hon. name? I am Hon. Livune, but he said ‘Chivune’.

I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: It was a slip of the tongue. Therefore, he is in order.

May the hon. Minister continue.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I beg Hon. Livune’s pardon. I thought that he could be called Chivune because he is mischievous.

Laughter

   Dr Phiri: Sir, I want to use his point of order to qualify what I was about to say, since you said that we are all from the Office of the President, as nominated hon. Members of Parliament. There is no way I would have said that the hon. Minister of Finance does not fund me. In fact, if he had the leverage, he would have funded us even more because he knows that education is the key to every child’s success in life. 

Mr Speaker, let me assure this august House that all the monies that we budget for do get disbursed to the ministry and we make the best of their use regardless of when they come.

I thank you, Sir.

FAMILIES AFFECTED BY CREATION OF LUSAKA SOUTH MULTI-FACILITY ECONOMIC ZONE

 117. Mr Mucheleka asked the Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection:

(a)    whether any family had been displaced as a result of the creation of the Lusaka South Multi-facility Economic Zone;

(b)    if so, how many families were affected;

(c)    whether the Government would compensate the affected families; and

(d)    if so, what form of compensation would be provided.

Mr Chingimbu: Mr Speaker, currently, there are no families that have been displaced by the creation of the Lusaka South Multi-Facility Economic Zone (MFEZ). However, the Government has undertaken a screening exercise and obtained global positioning system (GPS) co-ordinates to identify the existing structures. Two categories of people have been identified in the area. Of the two, one category is of people who are just farming, not living there.

Mr Speaker, 186 households will be affected, translating into 1,116 people farming and staying in the area and 800 people who just go to farm in the area.

Mr Speaker, the Government will compensate the families that will be removed from the area and has, through the Office of the Vice-President’s Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), prepared two options for the families that will be removed from the area. These are either compensation in the form of cash or compensation, for one season, in the form of cash and resettlement in a resettlement scheme of their choice.

Mr Speaker, the Government has since prepared letters on the two options and made them available to the families and they have been coming forward to indicate the chosen option. The majority of them want cash.

Mr Speaker, the draft contract for the two options is currently with the Ministry of Justice and the road map for the re-location of people from the area has since been prepared.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about cash, especially for the people living on that piece of land. What is the specific amount to be paid to the families as compensation?

Mr Chingimbu: Mr Speaker, the compensation amount is not yet known. However, that information will be provided in due course.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Mahopo!

Mr Lubinda: Speaker, the Lusaka South MFEZ is very close to a place that has been mentioned by my colleagues on your left, Mahopo Village, whose people have suffered for a long time after their land was taken away by their Government back in 2000. Is the hon. Minister aware of any resettlement programme that had been drawn for the people affected in that area at the time the idea of establishing the facility was conceived or whether this is a novel idea of his Government? Could he, please, explain?

Mr Chingimbu: Mr Speaker, we treat each case as it comes. The question, here, is about the Lusaka South MFEZ and that is what we are looking at. However, if the hon. Member feels that we need to provide information on Mahopo, I will do so at a later stage.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, does the Government already have a place in mind where these people will be moved to?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I hope that the hon. Member who has asked this question will listen to the answer attentively because this question was answered by the hon. Deputy Minister when he said that the affected people will be given the chance to choose cash or be resettled in an area of their choice.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the Lusaka South area that is being talked about now is where Mahopo is. The question is …

Prof. Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I stand to raise a very serious procedural point of order, and I need your very serious ruling.

Sir, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to demonstrate his police skills by standing at attention when answering our questions, …

Laughter

Prof. Lungwangwa: … to a point where we do not even hear him because he is not audible enough as a result? 

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that he is used to interacting with police officers, he is in order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata was on whether the Government had a programme for the people of Mahopo because that is the same area where the MFEZ is. However, the hon. Minister said that he did not know the answer. As far as he knows, is there such a plan?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata knows the area he was talking about very well. Mahopo is near the MFEZ, but it is not part of it. Were it so, he would have said it. I also happen to live near the area and I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata was right. However, the question that arose, which I think that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central is trying to bring back, is whether, at the inception of the programme, there were plans to re-settle people in areas of their choice. The answer to that question is that this is an inherited project. However, since we mean well for the people, we have decided to look for re-settlement areas. We are using the Office of the Vice-President to re-locate the affected people to places of their choice and compensate them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Simfukwe: Mr Speaker, considering that the MFEZs in the country have been allocated huge tracts of land, most of which is prime land, who owns the title deeds? If the land is no longer Government-owned, but private, are the owners Zambians or foreign investors?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Muntanga: Bend a little, mwana.

Mr Lungu: I am bending a little, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Lungu: Sir, the land in question is Government-owned but, if it was a general question about all the MFEZs, I will find it difficult to answer because the ownership modes are different for each area. Some are in forest reserves while others are on customary land, but this particular one, the Lusaka South MFEZ, is on State land.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, in one breath, the hon. Minister says that there are no people affected or displaced and, in another, that there will be compensation for people who will be displaced. What is his definition of displacement?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, again, at the risk of becoming monotonous, let me repeat that people should pay attention when others speak, just as those who speak should speak loudly. 

Sir, there are a number of people in this area. We have been told that there are 186 households, which translates into 1,116 people who farm and stay there, and 880 people who just go there to farm. Those people will, certainly, have to move out of the area. If that is not displacement, then, I do not know what it is. They will be moved out. Therefore, we have agreed to compensate them in one form or another. What we have, here, is a question of semantics.

I thank you, Sir.

__________{mospagebreak}

MOTIONS

2014 BUDGET

(Debate resumed)

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious procedural point of order. 

Sir, this afternoon, I raised a point of order on the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, Hon. Katema, pertaining to the element of the Budget Speech by the Minister of Finance, which I consider to be very substantive, and the Hon. Mr Speaker made a ruling. It concerns the figures in the Budget and the recruitment of workers next year.

Sir, will we be in order to continue debating the Budget when a very substantive issue that has been raised is yet to be addressed by the hon. Minister of Finance? The issue needs to be clarified to enable us to debate this Motion prudently. However, taking into account that the hon. Minister of Finance has been asked to make that statement tomorrow, it is my opinion that, if we continue debating, we will be debating out of context.

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chair made a ruling on this point of order to the effect that, tomorrow, the hon. Minister of Finance will clarify the position on the matter that was raised. However, the position we have reached now is such that we are supposed to start debating the matter, and the nature of the current debate centres on policy. Therefore, I feel, and give appropriate direction, that the hon. Members will be in order to debate, notwithstanding the fact that the matter is yet to be clarified by the hon. Minister.

May the hon. Member for Lukulu West continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate this Motion. To me, this Budget is political because there will be a wage freeze from 2014 to 2016.

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for noticing me. I rise on a very serious point of order.

Sir, is the hon. Minister of Finance in order to go and prepare himself and come with a statement here without acknowledging that I asked him, in my debate yesterday, to go and re-design this Budget so that it is realistic or quit his position?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member for Lukulu West may continue.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I was saying that this Budget Speech is political because there will be a moratorium for two years and wages for civil servants will only be increased in 2016, which is an election year. The Government will increase the wages that year in order to please the civil servants. 

Sir, may I start on page … 

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised, and I think that this will be the last one so as to allow the hon. Member on the Floor to debate.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, following your earlier ruling or the directive that the hon. Minister of Finance should come to this House and clarify the policy statement on the Budget, are we, surely, in order to continue debating when we do not know the direction on the wage freeze? The hon. Member on the Floor is already debating the wage freeze, about which there is still a contradiction.

Sir, I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that what we are engaged in, now, is policy debate. The Yellow Book, which we will be examining in detail at an appropriate time, has all the necessary figures. So, when we start looking at the Yellow Book, we will expect you to examine the entries and the figures with an eagle’s eye so that you can point out these issues. 

The hon. Member is in order to continue debating.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that the Government intends to impose a wage freeze for two years and only increase the salaries for civil servants to appease them in 2016. That should not be the case.

Sir, this country experienced an economic boom before Independence, the Independence for which many people suffered. In the 1968 Budget, on page 1, Sub-section 5, it is stated that Zambia experienced an economic boom. That boom did not occur before Zambia got its Independence, and it is most unlikely that this country would have experienced an economic boom had it not gained its Independence. The Budget, which is an important instrument for regulating economic growth and development, must play its part in ensuring that our free and independent Zambia maintains its freedom at all times and costs. In order to sustain the economic boom, Zambia must continue to enjoy and reflect the image of peace and stability. Currently, there is no stability in the country.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, there are parallel structures in the Ruling Party.

Mr Livune: Fourth Republic in the Ruling Party.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, page 2, Sub-section 13, of the 1968 Budget indicates that this country advised the British Government against the policy of imposing sanctions because we knew that it would not be effective. Zambia assisted the British Government in policy formulation because we, as a country, did not want the British to use our refusal as an excuse for not bringing down an illegal regime in a matter of weeks. Shortly, I will show that we are still assisting the British Government, and I sincerely hope that, in all fairness to the people of Zambia, the British Government will reimburse the Zambian Government for that assistance. Today, we are busy borrowing, just a few years after Independence. On page 16 of the 1974 Budget Speech, it is stated that Zambia had entered a political watershed. The country had just elected a new Government under the one-party participatory democracy system.

Mr Speaker, the Zambian economy started slanting down just after electing a new Government, just like what we have done.

Laughter 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: What Zambia needs is an address to this House like the 1968 one, which was about economic boom.

Mr Speaker, the wage freeze announced by the hon. Minister of Finance is meant for some people to gain political mileage, which should not be the case. 

Sir, we need to have peace in this country. However, we have heard that suspected Patriotic Front (PF) cadres in Mulobezi have murdered a suspected United Party for National Development (UPND) cadre, a Mr Kayombo Kayawe, in cold blood. May his soul rest in peace. Surprisingly, the Government is mute on this matter. We said that the instability in the Ruling Party would spill over and affect the general public, and it has started doing so. I would like to take one minute of my time to observe a moment of silence for him.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo observed a minute of silence.

Mr Mutelo: May his soul rest in peace.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the deceased was a human being like any other. He did not need to die in that way. Let us have peace, as stated in the 2014 Budget Address.

Mr Speaker, on page 7 of his speech, the hon. Minister of Finance said:

“Mr Speaker, in 2014, the Government will continue to implement the Link Zambia 8,000 Programme. I am happy to report that, under this programme, which commenced last year, work is progressing well on over 1,500km of roads. These include the Pedicle, Mongu/Kalabo, Kalabo/Sikongo/Angola Border, Kasama/Mporokoso/Kaputa, Mbala/Nakonde, Mansa/Luwingu, Chipata/Chadiza/Katete, Chama/Matumbo, Isoka/Muyombe/Chama, Kitwe/Chingola and the Leopards Hill/Chiawa roads as well as the Bottom Road from Munyumbwe to Chaanga.”

Mr Speaker, where is the Katunda/Lukulu Road mentioned in this speech? What is wrong with mentioning it here? The literate and illiterate are two different types of people. When you talk about the gross domestic product (GDP) and inflation rate, the people in Lukulu West do not understand anything. They understand issues like wages, price and fuel increments or their roads being worked on. However, the more you continue mentioning roads in Chama and Luwingu …

Interruptions

Mr Mutelo: … to the exclusion of those in Lukulu, the less they will understand. They are asking where their roads are in the Yellow Book, but the fact is that the roads are not mentioned.

Mr Speaker, page 18 of the Budget Speech states that: 

“Sir, I propose to increase excise duty on airtime from 10 per cent to 15 per cent. I further propose to revoke the statutory instrument that suspended excise duty on clear beer so that the substantive duty rate of 60 per cent is, once again, effective.” 

That means that the price of talk time will go up next year. At least, the people in Lukulu understand that, but not those in Mitete, where there is no mobile telephone service. Whenever there will be a tower in Mitete District, talk time will be sold there and it will be at a high price. How can the Government expect the people in such an area, which is extremely impoverished, to buy talk time when its price is that high? On the other hand, we hear that there is another mobile service provider called Jaguar in Mansa or Luapula Province.

Sir, we keep talking about Zambia being one nation. However, were it so, we would not have the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) for thirty-five constituencies in the Northern, Luapula and Muchinga provinces disbursed while that for those in the Southern, Western and North-Western provinces is not, save in eight constituencies. It should not be like that. One Zambia, One Nation should mean equitable sharing of national resources.

Mr Speaker, these are the issues that the illiterate people will understand. They understand that, for two years, there will be no employment in the public sector. What will the people in the rural areas do? Where do you want them to go? 

Sir, a contractor was taken to build Mitete Boarding School, but money has not been released and he left the site. Where is the money? There was £78.3 million taken from Barotseland in the Western Province. Are you asking where the money will come from? Well, that is the money. Give it back to us. We cannot even ask for the interest that this money has accrued because it is too much.

Mr Speaker, on page 2 of the 2012 Budget Address, the hon. Minister of Finance said:

“Sir, annual inflation has remained in single digits. The recent reduction in fuel prices effected by the PF Government should reduce inflation by the end of this year.”

In 2012, fuel prices were reduced but, today, they have been increased. That was a political gimmick to please the masses and gain political mileage. It should not be like that. Let us plan for the good of this nation. 

Sir, it was in 1968 when we proudly proclaimed that there was an economic boom in this nation. Even the number of people employed then was high. However, we are now going back to the situation that prevailed in the 1970s, when we had the One-party State, through petitions. In 1968, we had a proper multi-party democracy. Later, we brought this democracy that we want to undermine. No, we will not let that happen.

Hon. Government Members: Ekowali, iwe?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, Shoprite workers, …

Hon. Member: What have they done?

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I quote page 3 of the report of your Committee on Delegated Legislation:

“With regard to the Committee’s findings during its local tour, it observed, with great disappointment, that the Shoprite Chain Stores were generally paying slave wages to its workers despite having been given favourable tax holidays when it came to Zambia. The Committee found that a lot of Shoprite workers were earning salaries below the minimum wage.”

When Shoprite workers strike, you fire them because there are no employment opportunities and, therefore, Zambians will still queue up for the same slave wages.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us consult less loudly. 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I ask the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security what has happened to Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 47. 

Mr Muntanga: They have failed.

Mr Mutelo: Why would you want to be jeered at by members of the public? 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: They should resign.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, when you see those people striking, it is not for fun. It is genuine because that business is managed in South Africa. We have no control. Do we have economic independence or just political independence?

Mr Speaker, Zambians called His Excellency Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., a ‘garbage’, but he answered that, although he was a ‘garbage’, he had turned into steak. May his soul rest in peace. 

Mr Ng’onga: It is cabbage, not garbage. 

Mr Mutelo: His Excellency President Rupiah Banda was also called Nyama Soya, and ...

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: ... he said that, even if he was Nyama Soya, at least, people could eat chicken.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: The Zambian people will also give a name to His Excellency Mr Michael Chilufya Sata. I do not know what it will be.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, Zambia is for us all. It is one Zambia, one nation. It should be kwacha ngwee. However, if it is ngwee on one side and bwii on the other, …

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: ... it is bad. Bwii and ngwee are ideophones for darkness and light, respectively. Ngwee busile. Cwale, haiba nji ki kwacha ngwee, it should be everywhere. There should be light.

Hon. UPND Members: Not only in Muchinga.

Mr Mutelo: You have to construct and tar the Katunda/Lukulu Road. Give a contractor the advance pay and let him go to the site.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, if that is not done, Zambians will come up with a name. The 1968 boom will turn into doom. I end here, Mr Speaker.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Any further debate?

No hon. Member indicated to debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Are we saying that we are not prepared to debate? 

Let me just say a word or two. We are here at the taxpayer’s expense, and the taxpayer expects us to do an honest day’s work. After the Budget was presented, we adjourned to allow us to study the speech, which is not voluminous. We had Saturday, Sunday and Monday to do justice to it. I think that it is important for us to show seriousness in the way we discharge our mandate.

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Home Affairs and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Lungu): Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1752 until 1430 hours on Thursday, 17th October 2013.

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