Wednesday, 14^th December, 2016

 

The House met at 0900 hours

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

NATIONAL ANTHEM

 

PRAYER

________

 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

 

CLASSROOMS AND TEACHERS’ HOUSES IN LUMEZI

 

54. Ms Jere (Lumezi) asked the Minister of General Education:

 

1. when the construction of additional classrooms and teachers’ houses at the following recently-upgraded day secondary schools in Lumezi Parliamentary Constituency would be completed:

 

1. Chasera;

 

1. Mpingozi;

 

1. Chikomeni; and

 

1. Kazembe; and

 

1. what the cause of the delay in completing the projects was.

 

The Minister of General Education (Dr Wanchinga): Mr Speaker, Phase I of construction works at Kazembe Secondary School have been completed while those at Chasera and Chikomeni secondary schools are 90 per cent complete. Mpingozi Primary School was upgraded into a secondary school due to pressure from the local communities and the pupils use existing infrastructure for the time being. However, the construction of additional classrooms for this particular school will be done when funds are available.

 

Sir, a total of K1.4 million was released through the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS’s) Office for construction works at Chasera, Kazembe and Chikomeni Secondary Schools and it was shared among the three schools. However, Mpingozi Secondary School will be taken on board in Phase II. Phase I construction works targeted a 1 X 3 classroom block and one teacher’s house.

 

Mr Speaker, let me also mention that the issue of teacher’s houses is a recurrent question. I would like to appeal to hon. Members of this House as well as the people who are listening to this debate not to consider this issue as a problem that should only be solved by the Government. They should consider this problem as an opportunity cost for business. I think that some of the schools are located in areas where it is very difficult for teachers to rent decent houses although they receive housing allowance. Therefore, it is a good idea for hon. Members of this House and the people out there to consider building low cost houses near the schools so that the teachers can rent those houses. That way, they will be complimenting the Government’s effort in solving the housing problem. Let me also hasten to add that …

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister …

 

Dr Wanchinga: Yes.

 

Mr Speaker: … are you still answering the question?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Sir, I am still answering the question. I am giving additional information because I know that this question will continue recurring.

 

Mr Speaker: It is part of our business.

 

Ms Jere: Mr Speaker, I am more concerned about the construction of schools in the valley. I realise that there are wild animals in the valley and there are no schools within that area. Therefore, I would like to urge the Ministry of General Education to expedite the construction of Chasera and Kazembe Secondary Schools to avoid incidents of children being attacked by wild animals.

 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, this is not time for comments. If you have no question, just stay put. It is time for questions and not the other usual debates that are going on over the Budget.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that as a result of community pressure, a facility which was a primary school has now been converted into a secondary school. I would like to find out from him whether as a result of that pressure they have now sent secondary school teachers to that same school, and if they have, how many are they? If he knows the number, have they been accommodated?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, I do not know the exact number of teachers who have been sent to that school. However, I can avail this information to the House at a later stage.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, the housing deficit is a serious problem in the Ministry of General Education and the hon. Minister indicated that the teachers get housing allowance. How much housing allowance is paid to the teachers in the rural areas?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, housing allowance is stuck to the salary scale of an individual. However, I will find out if there are any specific allowances given to the teachers at those particular schools and will bring that information to the House once again.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that the housing problem is an opportunity to the business community. As Minister of General Education, how does he rate the accommodation of teachers in schools? What is his view as regards the importance of accommodating these teachers?

 

Dr Wanchinga: Mr Speaker, I think that we all understand the value we place on teachers. When we send teachers to go and work out there, we want them to live in decent accommodation. Therefore, the short answer is that we would like these teachers to have very good accommodation, depending on the area in which they are working.

 

I thank you, Sir.

 

_____

 

MOTION

 

ENACT LEGISLATION ON CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND

 

Mr Chisopa (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to urgently enact legislation on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

 

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

 

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, following the Motion that was moved by Hon. Rodgers Mwewa, where he urged this House to amend the Constitution because it has lacunas, I now beg to move the Motion that in terms of 162 of the Constitution of Zambia, this House urges the Government to urgently enact legislation to regulate the management, disbursement, utilisation and accountability of the CDF and the Member of Parliament be part thereof.

 

Sir, this Motion is non-controversial and therefore, deserves support from both sides of the House.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema Motions, aya.

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, let me begin by giving the background of the CDF. This is a type of decentralised Government funding that is supposed to deliver goods and services directly to constituents by providing additional funds for local community development outside the line ministries.

 

Sir, CDF represents the tenets of decentralisation as an engine for community development in that it is about financing development initiatives at the community level through the decentralisation of funds and decision making to the local level. CDF in Zambia was approved by Parliament in 1995 to help constituencies meet their development challenges through the selection and implementation of community based projects according to community felt needs, that is micro-community-based projects for poverty reduction.

 

Mr Speaker, this was important to have a long term effect of improving the socio-economic wellbeing of the constituents. Article 162 of the Constitution of Zambia provides for the establishment of the CDF. Additionally, the appropriation of the CDF to the constituency in terms of management, disbursement, utilisation and accountability of the fund is to be prescribed.

 

Sir, In Bemba we say pakwakana ubunga tapabula insoni.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Sir, that means when you want to share mealie meal, you do not have to feel shy.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, it is on this aspect that I now propose the integral inclusion of the Members of Parliament to be on the centre of the CDF activities as the head of the fund,...

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: ... and starting point in the process of solving the challenges associated with the fund in the absence of the Members of Parliament.

 

Sir, since its inception, the CDF in Zambia has grown to a level where it has been recognised as a very important tool for community development among the Members of Parliament because it is supposed to provide Members of Parliament and their constituents with an opportunity to make choices and implement community projects that maximise their welfare in line with their preferences in terms of the following:

 

1. sinking of wells and boreholes;

 

1. rehabilitation of roads and bridges;

 

1. supporting community based agricultural ventures such as livestock dipping tanks;

 

1. rehabilitating health and education facilities as a common or public good;

 

1. promoting public health through sanitation programmes such as cleaning up markets, drainages and community dump sites;

 

1. markets and bus shelters; and

 

1. many other community based projects.

 

Sir, it is however, sad to note that the good CDF has failed to achieve its intended objective because of the many challenges of bureaucracy associated with management, disbursement, utilisation and accountability of the entire process in the hands of the local authority without the involvement of the area Member of Parliament, who is the head of the constituency.

Mr Speaker, this is because most of the powers and authority with regards to CDF have remained vested in the local authority and as such, the authority of Members of Parliament remains limited.

 

Sir, the CDF is included in each council as part of its annual capital budget with a very long bureaucratic procedure involved in the process. For example, CDF receives project proposals from sub-district development community structures such as Ward Development Committees (WDCs) and other stakeholders from within the project areas. The recommendations from these committees were then sent to the planning sub-committee of the District Development Coordinating Committee (DDCC) for appraisal before recommending to the council for adoption.

 

Mr Speaker, this long process associated with the release of the fund is not helping the country in any way, hence the need to include the area Members of Parliament. Further, the management of CDF uses the top-down management approach which does not provide room for community participation in decision making on local development activities. It must be stated from the outset that the idea behind CDF is to empower local communities by providing a pot of funding for solving felt needs of the constituents in areas of education, health, roads and other initiatives directly linked with ordinary citizens.

 

Mr Speaker, CDF in Zambia has failed to achieve its intended objective by not producing the desired result because of the long processes which are resulting in the following challenges associated with the management of the fund:

 

1. abuses by the contractors of tendering systems;

 

1. inflated amounts for CDF tender projects;

 

1. allegations of corruption for officials involved in the management of CDF;

 

1. non utilisation of CDF funds even after full council approval leading to the Government recalling the funds;

 

1. failure to complete CDF funded projects on time and within the budget; and

 

1. the increased monitoring expense of K140, 000 by the local authority, which can be used to meet community needs.

 

Sir, in the absence of the participation of the area Members of Parliament, the CDF will never bring about the desired development in the country at the rate we are moving.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Sir, CDF is supposed to spur community development through active participation of the citizens and the elected representatives of the people. Currently, there is underdevelopment in most of our constituencies because the administration and disbursement of CDF has been marred by serious bureaucracy because of being administered by local authorities, without anyone to represent the local people.

 

In this regard, it is my considered view that the area Member of Parliament be the centre in the management, disbursement, utilisation …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: …. and accountability of CDF.

 

Mr Speaker, the inclusion of Members of Parliament in the administration of CDF will improve the utilisation, efficiency and effectiveness of the fund.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: This is because Members of Parliament are representatives of the people, who are the owners of the funds.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Siwale: Very articulate!

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, if area Members of Parliament are included in the management of CDF, they will supervise and local communities will benefit because Members of Parliament are able to ensure the following:

 

1. proper fiscal decentralisation to the constituency level;

 

1. strengthening citizens’ voice on social accountability;

 

1. increased employment opportunities for women and the youth through community micro projects;

 

1. reduced poverty and equality through labour intensive projects at constituency level;

 

1. boosted local business as low income earners have a propensity to spend their earnings on essential things such as food and groceries;

 

1. CDF funds are ring-fenced from abuses at local authority level;

 

1. investment in human capital by training parliamentary constituency officers in project planning and management skills and business development services so that they could serve their communities better; and

 

1. proper systems and structures for managing and disbursing CDF funds; and

 

1. timely implementation of micro-community based projects in the constituency.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, once the area Member of Parliament is at the centre of the administration of the fund, the above stated results would be achieved without any doubt.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jamba: Ali sambilila, uyu!

 

Ms Kalima: Sana!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Chisopa: Sir, Members of Parliament will carry out projects in collaboration with the community, who are the owners of the fund.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, this fund is specific and self-explanatory. Most constituencies are underdeveloped due to the fact that most projects have stalled because of the inertia in most councils.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, this fund is called CDF. This title entails that the funds belong to a constituency which is headed by a Member of Parliament.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: This fund must benefit the constituents, 100 percent. I wish to bring to your attention the fact that Members of Parliament have passion to develop their constituencies more than other stakeholders.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: This means that CDF is much safer in the hands of the Parliamentarians, the way …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: …it is in other countries.

 

Mr Speaker, Kenya is one example of the countries where CDF has worked well because the Members of Parliament are involved in determining the projects to be undertaken.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: The CDF in Kenya was established in 2003 through an Act of Parliament. This fund is at least 2.5 percent of the ordinary revenue raised by the Government each year and the annual CDF allocation has been increasing each year in relation to the cumulative increase in revenue by years.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: The enactment of the CDF Act of 2013 was mainly aimed at ensuring that the law governing CDF was aligned to the Constitution of the Republic of Kenya, in compliance with the principles of transparency, accountability, Separation of Powers and participation of the people.

 

Mr Speaker, according to the Kenyan CDF Act of 2013, citizens have numerous roles they play in the administration of CDF, as follows:

 

1. provide opinion on specific development projects to be funded by CDF;

 

1. provide membership to the Project Management Committee (PMC) and the Constituency Development Fund Committee (CDFC);

 

1. provide grassroots and practical auditing of CDF projects;

 

1. monitor CDF projects; and

 

1. ensure sustainability of projects.

 

Mr Speaker, in Kenya, the CDFC is one of the institutions created under the CDF Act of 2003. The CDFC is a parliamentary select committee appointed by the Kenya National Assembly, in accordance with parliamentary Standing Orders. The CDFC comprises eleven Members of Parliament, one of whom is the Chair.

 

Furthermore, Members of the CDFC cannot be Ministers or assistant Ministers. The membership is a proportionate representative of political parties. Additionally, Members serve for a three year renewable duration or until the dissolution of Parliament. The functions of the CDFC include the following:

 

1. determining the allocation and distribution of CDF;

 

1. determining the utilisation of any unspent funds intended for use by the board of management of CDF;

 

1. making a report to Parliament, every two years, and any other reports to appraise parliament and obtain approvals;

 

1. considering and make recommendations on persons appointed under the Act. For example, appointed to the board; and

 

1. overseeing the policy and legislative framework to ensure efficient CDF implementation.

 

Mr Speaker, since its inception in Kenya as a home-grown initiative to address inequalities in development around the country, CDF has made a great impact with numerous CDF projects coming up throughout the country. However, as it is in other countries, issues of accountability and transparency are there and being handled by social audits.

 

Sir, you may wish to know what social audits are. Social audit is a process through which all details of a public project are scrutinised at public meetings. Social audit examines all aspects of a public project, including the management of finances, officers responsible, record-keeping access to information, accountability, levels of public involvement and so on. In a nutshell, social audit seeks to evaluate how well public resources are being used and how to improve performance. It also aims to ensure maximum community participation.

 

Mr Speaker, a social audit is conducted by social auditors who are drawn from the community and are community members committed to uplifting the welfare of the local people. Social audits are carried out by groups of community members called social audit teams. As the work involved is quite demanding, most social audit teams operate on a voluntary basis because of their interest in the community. Additionally, social audit teams may be assisted by local development groups such as non-governmental Organisations (NGOs). Ultimately, however, the social audit is best done by those who benefit from the projects.

 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I am urging the Government to urgently enact legislation on CDF and that Members of Parliament should be part thereof so that it can be released for utilisation. Sir, a close scrutiny of the objectives of CDF reveals that participation of local people is considered a necessity in bringing about community development while representing a departure from the centralised development planning in which the Government is the primary agent of development.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Musukwa: Mupeniko na menshi. Na bomba, uyo!

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa drank some water.

 

Mr Speaker: You need water to conclude.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, it is important to involve and consider the interest of the local communities who understand their respective areas better and the local people’s people rich indigenous knowledge, where the development agenda can lean on in the face of the area hon. Member of Parliament being at the centre  of the CDF.

 

Sir, I now request this hon. House to support this Motion the way it is.

 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

 

Mr Chaatila: Now, Sir.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chaatila: Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion of urging the Government to urgently enact legislation to regulate the management, disbursement, utilisation and accountability of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which has been ably moved on the Floor of this House by Hon. Davies Chisopa, hon. Member of Parliament for Mkushi South.

 

Sir, the CDF is a decentralised mode of funding and the delivery of goods and services directly to constituents. It represents a specialised vehicle for community development at the local level.

 

Mr Speaker, you may wish to note that although the CDF in Zambia was introduced in 1995, it remains unchanged compared to the manner in which some of our sister countries such as Kenya have developed it. In fact, the CDF in Zambia remains a model of excellence.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Chaatila: This is also the reason why it has been replicated within and outside the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region. As such, and if we want to see full benefits form the CDF, we must collectively agree that the office of the hon. Member of Parliament remains the centre of the CDF in the management.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chaatila: Mr Speaker, my contribution to the Motion will focus on principles and guidelines that have been agreed in the Commonwealth by Parliaments on how the CDF should be managed.

 

Sir, allow me from the outset, to acknowledge the fact that Parliamentary involvement in grassroots community development has grown considerably across the Commonwealth countries. This is because nations have realised that without involved of representatives in community based development initiatives, the needs of the people are not properly prioritised. Stakeholders have in this regard called for funding initiatives whose implementations are locally determined, constituency-level development and hon. Member of Parliament’s office-coordinated such as the CDF.

 

Mr Speaker, allow me to cite some of the principles that have motivated me today to second this Motion.

 

Responsiveness

 

Sir, the CDF initiatives should respond to local developmental needs. In this regard, there is need for coordinators of the CDF to solicit input from all stakeholders by regularly including the in project selection and implementation.

 

Sir, which office can do this job better other than that of the hon. Member of Parliament’s office? Through the representative role, the office of eh hon. Member of Parliament is uniquely position to know the social-economic and humanitarian problems as identified by councillors and citizens themselves. In short, I am saying the CDF is more responsive when coordinated by the office of the hon. Member of Parliament.

 

Transparency

 

Mr Speaker, transparency refers to the administration of Government services in an open and publicly observable manner that creates opportunities for public participation. At constituency level, the office of the hon. Member of Parliament is an agent for development. When the Government fails to deliver its services, the people cry out to and most of the times blame the office of the hon. Member of Parliament. So, why not give the area Member of Parliament an opportunity to help redirect additional resources towards the needs of his or her people …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chaatila: … and create Opportunities for their participation. Together with the councillors and other stakeholders, the hon. Member of Parliament can identify local developmental problems and all possible solutions in a much transparent manner as possible.

 

Administration and Management

 

Mr Speaker, this principle demands that the structure of authority should be clearly stated to the public to ensure that citizens are knowledgeable about the decision-making process of the CDF management. So far, our CDF implementation has failed this principle. How many of our citizens understand the decision-making process of our CDF management? Some of them think that hon. Member of Parliament control the CDF and all the CDF related development, which is not true.

 

Monitoring and Evaluation

 

Sir, monitoring and evaluation of the CDF projects are essential tasks to help ensure learning about what actions are most effective in fostering constituency development. While on one hand, monitoring ensures that the CDF projects are progressing towards their goal, evaluation on the other hand, assesses the efficiently, effectiveness, impact and the results of the CDF project.

 

Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament are uniquely positioned to engage proactively in facilitating the processes of monitoring and evaluation because they are present at the lower levels, where projects are planned and implemented. In this regard, the monitoring of the CDF projects is more effective than having to send officers from the central Government or district to monitor progress and completion of projects.

 

Sir, in view of the above, it is clear that this is a non-controversial Motion, which requires the support of every hon. Member of his House …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chaatila: … for the benefits of the people we represent in our various constituencies.

 

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I beg to second.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Is there any need for further debate?

 

Hon. Members: No!

 

Laughter

 

The Minister of Local Government (Mr Mwale): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to respond to this Motion.

 

Sir, for the past ten years that I have been a Member of Parliament, I have never seen a Motion which just ended with a proposer and the seconder …

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: … and it had to be concluded like this.

 

Mr Speaker, this simply shows that there is so much agreement on the matters that have been raised by both the mover and the seconder.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Sir, I must say that I have seen very few Motions bringing together your left and your right and agree in such a manner on a matter.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, if it were like this for matters to do with HIV/AIDs …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwale: Sir, it were like this for matters to do with maternal mortality issues or if it were like this the eradication of corruption or any bad thing in this country, we would have achieved a lot as country.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Government Member: Even circumcision!

 

Mr Mwale: Yes, even on circumcision. We would have achieved a lot.

 

Laughter

 

 Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, let me say that indeed, this is a non-controversial debate.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Sir, I agree with the proposals raised by both the mover and the seconder and I also agree that hon. Members of Parliament should be an integral …

 

Hon. Members: In charge!

 

Mr Mwale: … part of the disbursement, monitoring and everything in the CDF process. How that is done is a different question, but I agree that hon. Members of Parliament should be members of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Committees.

 

Hon. Members: No!

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I also agree that hon. Members of Parliament need to appoint members of the CDF Committee.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Further, I agree that hon. Members of Parliament should indeed be in charge of the whole process.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, however, we should relook at the amount of money allocated towards administration of this fund that goes to the council.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, please, take a seat.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

 

Hon. Minister, I think we should leave the details for the Bill, which will come back here for detailed consideration. So, I do not think we should begin looking at that Bill in this fashion.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, the mover and seconder have been allowed to get into details of these matters and I thought I needed to respond to that. However, after your guidance, let us just say that one of the matters which were raised was that hon. Members of Parliament should oversee the use of this fund from the office of the hon. Member of Parliament …

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, I do not think you followed me. Take a seat, please.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

 

Let us have some order, please!

 

I think the overarching principle seems to be agreed on. You also have to be mindful of the fact that we have a lot of business on our agenda. We are trying to complete the Budget process as soon as possible. So please, as far as possible, confine yourself to principle, hon. Minister, and the details of this matter will be dealt with by the Government later.

 

Mr Mwale: Alright. Mr Speaker, with your guidance, I will end this way. I agree that the use of CDF should be anchored on hon. Members of Parliament, but the details will be decided at the ministry.

 

Hon. Members: No, no!

 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, I need your protection.

 

Mr Speaker: Order! Please take a seat, hon. Minister.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

 

Hon. Minister, we can make progress. The Government always initiates legislation. There is a process in enacting legislation and it is this body that finally enacts any legislation.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, in winding up my remarks, let me state that when I came here to give a ministerial statement on CDF sometime in the past, I did say that as a ministry we wanted to get the views of hon. Members of Parliament and make sure that their wishes were incorporated in whatever legislation we were going to come up with as Government in relation to CDF. We waited and nobody ever came forward, but what has come now is this Motion. I agree with what has been highlighted in the Motion. However, as we said, everything else will be done later.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chisopa: Mr Speaker, indeed, as the hon. Minister has said, in the history of this Parliament, this is the first time a Motion has only been proposed and seconded and it ends there. However, I would like to thank all hon. Members of Parliament for overwhelmingly supporting this Motion.

 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

____________

 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

VOTE 44 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – K41,747,901).

 

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mrs Simukoko): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver the policy statement in support of the 2017 ministerial budget.

 

I would also like to take this opportunity to join others in conveying my heartfelt condolences to the late Deputy Speaker, Hon. Lungu. May his soul rest in peace.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry supports the policy pronouncements contained in the inspirational speech by His Excellency, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, the President of the Republic of Zambia on the official opening of this session. Similarly, my ministry supports the 2017 Budget Address delivered to this House by the hon. Minister of Finance, Hon. Felix Mutati.

 

My policy statement is in two parts; the first part will look at the performance of the ministry in 2016, while the second part will outline our priority areas of focus in 2017. I am pleased to inform this House that my ministry recorded considerable progress on some of the priorities that we had set for ourselves in 2016. In February this year, the country successfully hosted the 42^nd Ordinary Session of the African Region Labour Administration Centre (ARLAC) Governing Council Meeting for hon. Ministers. This platform provided us with an opportunity to interface with experts and policy makers from nineteen African countries with a view to find solutions to labour and social security challenges facing the African region.

 

Madam Chairperson, as this House is aware, the Government enacted the Employment (Amendment) Act No. 15 of 2015 in order to enhance the welfare of workers and improve their working conditions. My ministry has started implementing provisions which are under the amended Act. This will ensure that workers operate under conditions that guarantee them enhanced job security and fundamental rights at places of work. I therefore, call upon all progressive employers and trade unions to work with the ministry to enhance compliance with this law.

 

Madam Chairperson, many hon. Members of this House may agree with me that the current social security system in Zambia has a lot of challenges and does not adequately address the social security needs of the people. To address this concern, the Government embarked on the process of drafting the Social Protection Bill to put in effect comprehensive reform measures aimed at creating a responsive and robust social security system in Zambia. The new system will broaden the range of concerns and risks covered through a combination of pension, occupational injury and disease, social health insurance and social assistance measures. In line with the directive which was made by His Excellency the President, during his address to this august House, this reform process is expected to be completed during the course of next year after the Bill is presented to Parliament. Therefore, I appeal to all hon. Members to support the enactment of the Bill. I reiterate the Government’s commitment to creating a conducive environment for decent jobs for its people through various policy measures and practical actions which have been put in place.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, my ministry revised the National Employment and Labour Market Policy. The overreaching aim of the policy is to contribute to making full, productive and freely chosen employment and decent work a reality for all citizens. Key measures contained in the policy are:

 

1. creation of formal job opportunities and promotion of transition of informal jobs to formal ones;

 

1. reduce under-employment and increase earnings from work in rural areas;

 

1. increase gender equality and empowerment initiatives for women, youths and the disabled in the labour market; and

 

 

1. build an effective and efficient labour administration system to improve the enforcement level of labour regulations, manage labour market information and provide public employment related services.

 

Madam Chairperson, implementation of these measures is very critical if the Government is to realise the Vision 2030 of making Zambia a middle income country. You will note that in the 2017 Budget, the ministry has made efforts to integrate some of these measures as a way of actualising the policy intentions. The Government desires the line ministries and social partners to do their part to contribute to the implementation of this policy.

 

Madam Chairperson, during the official opening of Parliament, His Excellency the President indicated the need for the country to move away from general minimum wage to sector based minimum wage legislation. I am pleased to inform this House that a statutory instrument to regulate wages in the agriculture sector has been prepared. I will soon be issuing this statutory instrument after clearance from the ministry of Justice. We are committed to ensuring that vulnerable workers in all sectors of the economy are protected through wage regulation. In a similar address to this august House last year, my predecessor indicated that a national call centre would be set up in the ministry to help promote interaction with the public so as to serve and raise public awareness on employment and labour issues. I wish to inform this House that a national call centre has since been set up. Any person with a labour complaint and anyone who wishes to seek guidance on labour related issues from the ministry is now able to do so through making a call instead of physically coming to the ministry

 

Madam Chairperson, the budgetary allocation to my ministry has been increased from K23,298,189 in 2016 to K41,747,901 in 2017, reflecting a percentage increase of 78.97. I wish to express my profound thanks to my counterpart at the Ministry of Finance who has understood the financial challenges my ministry has been going through and supported increased budgetary allocation. With the given resources, my ministry intends to focus on the following priority areas.

 

Policy Development

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, my ministry will continue addressing the existing policy and institutional gaps in order to facilitate the development of an efficient and effective labour market. To ensure that productivity is enhanced in all sectors of the economy, my ministry will undertake to finalise the National Productivity Policy. The overall objective of the policy is to promote productivity in the country so as to enhance competiveness, accelerate economic growth, create employment and improve the living standards of our people.

 

Madam Chairperson, we will also finalise and launch the Occupational Safety and Health Policy (OSH). The policy will articulate the national framework for addressing occupational safety and health in the work place which is a pre-requisite to improved productivity.

 

Reforms

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2017, we will undertake to complete the labour law and social security reforms. We are working in earnest to ensure that we bring the bills on the remaining aspects of these reforms to this august House. One of those to be changed is the Factories Act of 1996 which is not responsive to the present day challenges.

 

Madam, I have so much passion for the labour and employment sector. Experience gained from my trade union involvement will enable me provide the needed leadership to advance the cause of reforming this sector.

 

We will put in place laws and legislation meant to uphold the rights and values of both the employer and worker while at the same time, promoting the plight of our citizens who are the greatest asset this country has.

 

Productivity Promotion

 

As we intensify our efforts to create decent jobs in the country, it is also important to enhance productivity improvement in the country. My Government wishes to reaffirm its commitment to ensuring that productivity improves acts as a catalyst for rapid industrialisation, job and wealth creation.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry in 2017, will specifically implement programmes and activities aimed at enhancing productivity in the agriculture sector. It is my strong belief that this is a necessary precondition as Zambia strives to diversify from too much dependency on the copper industry.

 

Promotion of Social Dialogue

 

Madam Chairperson, social dialogue provides a forum where competing interests are negotiated and resolved holistically in order to achieve a common goal. As Government continues to implement austerity measures aimed at economic recovery, my ministry will continuously and actively engage in dialogue with our social partners through the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council and other fora to ensure that we promote industrial harmony.

 

Labour Market Information

 

Madam, information is critical to informing policy and enhancing credibility in decision making. My ministry in 2017 will continue providing information on key indicators of the labour market. In order to stay current with the ever evolving situation in the labour market, we will undertake the 2017 labour force survey.

 

In addition, the ministry will implement measures to strengthen both labour market information system and the evaluation system under the auspices of the Government wide monitoring and evaluation programme. This will be done through development of the sector performance framework, data catalogue, and sector and M&E policy and implementation plan and knowledge management and communication strategy. Implementation of these frameworks will promote transparency and accountability for development results at all levels in the ministry.

 

Compliance with Labour Laws

 

In the coming year, my ministry will store up efforts to promote adherence to labour laws through factory and labour inspections. With the increase in the economic activities in the country, we will endeavour to increase our outreach to places of work to interact with workers and employers with a view of addressing challenges that may hinder with compliance with labour laws.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, we are upbeat about 2017, we are confident that we will achieve our set priorities. My ministry will strive for a labour market which is conducive to investment, economic growth, employment creation and decent work.

 

I, therefore, implore hon. Members of this House who I believe are labour officers in their own right, to support my ministry’s 2017 Budget to enable us promote the welfare of current and former workers in all corners of this great country.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Kabanda (Serenje): Thank you, Madam Chairperson. In the first place, I would like to support the budget line for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and also thank the hon. Minister for that well articulated Policy Statement.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is the engine to all productive areas of this country. Probably, even the budget line that has been allocated would have been doubled because we need them to be in all places to monitor the performance of the industry in this country.

 

Also, the changes in the legislative framework which have been introduced are very much welcome and there are many more that need to be revisited. This is because most legislation in terms of labour laws are actually out dated and need to be revisited on our statutes so that we can enhance productivity in this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, many are times I have stood on the Floor of this House complaining about lack of production particularly in the Civil Service. At the moment, the Civil Service is actually top heavy. It needs to be revisited so that we can have an efficient Civil Service which can deliver the promises that we made to our people during the campaigns.

 

Madam Chairlady …

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Members: Chairperson!

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Kabanda, …

 

Mr Kabanda: I am sorry.

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: … I know that in the party structures you are probably used to addressing the chair as chairlady …

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: … but please, address me as Chairperson.

 

Mr Kabanda: I am sorry, Madam.

 

Chairperson, …

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kabanda: … you may be aware that much is needed to be done in the Civil Service. We need an overhaul of the entire Civil Service so that we can have a system which can deliver on the promises that we made to the people as I have earlier indicated. The current personnel whom we have actually have been recycled several times. So, we need energised staff that can actually be able to perform. That is why I have always been saying that we need a lean but efficient Civil Service which can drive the economy of this country forwards.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

The First Chairperson: That is commendable!

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Ema debate, aya!

 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, first of all, allow me to whole heartedly congratulate Hon. Simukoko for being appointed Minister of Labour and Social Security. Many hon. Members may not know that in a previous life she was my boss. She was the general secretary and I was her deputy.

 

Hon. Members: Oh!

 

Mr Livune: She released me to come and prepare the way in the last Parliament and now she joined me.

 

Mr Muchima: Are you working together?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Livune: Madam Chairperson, we hold this ministry close to our hearts and that is why I have hope that many of the issues that had engulfed the labour movement regarding labour relations will be dealt with. Even though we are sited on opposite sides of the House, the hon. Minister and I both know that the Government has oppressed workers.

 

Government Member: Question!

 

Mr Livune: It is for this reason that I believe Hon. Simukoko will deal with these matters in the interest of both the employer and the workers. The relationship between a worker and their employer can be likened to that of a master ...

 

Hon. UPND: And a servant.

Mr Livune: Not necessarily a servant because they are partners. In the absence of the worker, the employer will not make the required profits and in the absence of employer, the worker will not have a job.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am happy that the hon. Minister talked about labour reforms. This song was sung in the last Parliament and continued to be sung until the Parliament adjourned, but not much was achieved. It is my sincere hope that the hon. Minister will take a different approach and ensure that labour laws are harmonised.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Zambia Union of Financial Institutions and Allied Workers (ZUFIAW), the great union which we come from, the Mine Workers Union of Zambia (MUZ) and the Zambia National Union of Teachers (ZANUT) were among the unions that pulled out of the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) in 1994. We pulled out because we felt the leaders at that time had betrayed us. They connived with the Government to punish workers, especially on their right to strike.

 

Madam Chairperson, we all know that one of the options available to an aggrieved worker is the ability to show an amount of dissatisfaction by downing tools. This did not sit well with our colleagues although they knew art of trade unionism well. The workers were betrayed and so we pulled out. This matter has not been resolved up to today and it is for this reason that I am calling upon the hon. Minister to address this matter in a fair way. There is no way an employer will sanction a strike, so if there is an issue to be addressed the employer must address it in a manner maintains harmony. However, a worker should not be deprived of the right to strike because it is not a crime.

 

Madam Chairperson, employers seem to think that striking is a crime and tend to punish workers for it. Trade union leaders must be free to practice their trade unionism. This is the reason managers in the sector must be trained in these issues. In some countries, you cannot be a manager if you do not have a background of labor relations in your training. It is important for managers to be trained in this aspect so that they can deal with such matters. Dealing with human beings is very hard. It is possible that some employees are more intelligent than their managers so it is important that attention is paid to this need.

 

Madam Chairperson, it important that we all educate ourselves on issues relating to labour. In the last sitting, we agreed with the then hon. Minister that a training of hon. Members would take place to help in addressing these challenges in their various constituencies, but it never happened. We do not have enough labour officers so many areas that require attention. We thought that since hon. Members are spread throughout the country, it would help the ministry to spare some time and give the Members the basics of what they need to do to help, notwithstanding the importance of having qualified labour inspectors in all the districts of our country.

 

Madam Chairperson, there is another issue which the hon. Minister needs to apply herself to. In Kazungula, for example, you will find a project that is managed by one contractor, but the salaries paid to the workers on the Zambian side and the Botswana side are different. These matters should be addressed. Workers from different sides of a border should get the same amounts of money. Such issues must be dealt with as soon as possible

 

Madam Chairperson, we have the new Pay As You Earn (PAYE) threshold was just announced. The tax-free threshold has been increased from K3,000 to K3,300. Although this is a welcome move, I believe workers in this country have been hit below the belt. I say this because within same year, fuel has been increased and toll gates have been setup in various areas around the country. Those who stay in areas like Kafue have to pay toll gate fees on a daily basis. The expenditure spent on toll gates, for example, may come up to K1,000 a month, but the relief they receive from the Government is only K300. How can we help this worker? The United Party for National Development (UPND) believe the tax free threshold should start from K5,000 so that workers can they live comfortably. These issues should be looked at seriously because they affect our workers and will end up affecting productivity. Figures do not lie.

 

I am very proud to belong to a calculator family ...

 

Laughter

 

Mr Livune: …because figures are always accurate. Figures will make someone make accurate decisions. There is no way a parent can give his child school fees which are less than the amount required. How does this parent expect this child to be able to pay the school fees in full? Does this parent hope that this child will have an extra parent to give him or her that money? We know very well that our workers spend all their time in their places of work and very few workers get beyond K3,000 and K4,000. So, we need to be able to look at these figures and see how best we can help our workers.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is important that the issue alluded to by the hon. Minister of promoting dialogue among the tripartite partners is enhanced because in this game, we are all partners and stakeholders. We are all employers and employees. We need to enhance the dialogue so that we can be able to understand each other for the betterment of the workers.

 

Madam Chairperson, lastly, I want to state that it is a well known issue out there that people from the labour movement betray the workers when they ascend to levels of leadership. Therefore, the hon. Minister should make a difference. We know very well that our once trustee who become President was also perceived to have done one or two things to the negative in terms of the workers’ appreciation. The just past Minister was one of the gurus of labour. Again, the workers still cried that nothing much was done for their needs. They thought they had their own people who could help them. This scourge has continued. Today, we have our once iron lady, Mama Joyce Nonde, who is Minister of Labour and Social Services. Would she betray the workers? She can make a difference.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

 

Mr Livune: Madam Chairperson, today, we are here and tomorrow, it would be interesting that we are joined by our family out there.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Livune: Madam Chairperson, it is therefore, important that we move along with our colleagues. We should listen to what people out there are saying and harmonise that with what is happening on the ground. We should also be able to provide the leadership that is required for the nation. One day, it will be interesting to have brothers such as Hon. Cephas Mukuka, Hon. Chingati Musisha and Hon. David Bwalya. I am already calling them honourables in advance because it will be interesting to have them in this House. We will see how our vigour will fare in championing this need of a worker to be liberated. The hon. Minister should not forget that the workers’ rights are human rights and always, the bourgeois wants to take to take away that which a worker is entitled to. We are still connected with those that we left and speak for. Life and history will not be complete without us remembering where we come from. As we used to say, “United we stand, divided we fall” and “An injury to one is an injury to all.” So, if we injure them, we are also technically injured. Let us look after them and provide the required leadership.

 

With those few words, I wish the hon. Minister success in her bureau.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Chairperson, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister for her appointment and submission. I support the Budget of her ministry which she has presented to this House.

 

Madam Chairperson, in supporting in this Budget, I also have some concerns. I have noted that under the Vote for the Ministry of National Development and Planning, Central Statistics Office, whose Budget we approved on this Floor, Programme 3017, Activity 005, Labour Force Survey, there is a sum of K2.5 million. Under the Vote for the Ministry of Labour and Social Services, there is Programme 5030, Activity 168, Labour Force Survey which has a sum of K2 million. Obviously, I think we will require some harmonisation because we cannot provide for labour market surveys in both ministries. In any case, these labour market surveys are supposed to be done every two years. So, obviously, maybe the other K2 million can be diverted to Nkeyema to…

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Mr Mbangweta, this is policy debate.

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for that guidance. The other issue which I want to bring to the ministry’s attention is with regards to the proposed pension reforms. The fundamental issue for a worker who has worked for so many years is the funding of the current pension schemes and not the pension reforms. I hope the ministry is trying to look for funding. I am sure the hon. Minister is aware of the fact that the hon. Minister of Finance proposed the increased contributor rates on the part of the employer and the employee. So, naturally, that has the potential of being a constraint in the creation of employment. I am hoping that in the reforms which are being done, the ministry is looking at the funding mechanisms because this is really where the problem is. We have people who retired a long time ago but have not been paid up to now. So, even if we talk about reforms, we might be talking about the future generation. For now, I think we should deal with people who have retired. 

 

Madam Chairperson, the labour law reforms have been on the cards for a long time. Let us try to facilitate the process by attending to areas where our citizens have raised concerns. This morning, we were being told that there is no equal work for equal pay in certain areas. For example, the Livingstone bungee jumping which was mentioned yesterday and what my colleague, Hon. Livune has just stated on the Floor of this House. So, the ministry needs to make sure that they put measures in place to ensure that our people are not at the receiving end. They receive what they work for. We also expect the ministry to assist the other ministries and indeed, their colleagues generally, in the party. They should know that when they propose employment figures, the ministry should be in a position to moderate. The ministry should tell them what is on the ground because at least, they can see the employers, trade unions and workers. So, the ministry knows exactly what is happening in the industry.

 

Madam Chairperson, sometime last week, some PF colleagues together with their Chief Executive of the Patriotic Front (PF) party were on the Copperbelt. They were complaining about the lack of employment opportunities. So, if we are hoping to create 100,000 descent jobs in 2017, the ministry should be encouraging the other ministries to be realistic. Today is 14^th December, 2017 and up to now, now new jobs are being created. On the contrary, this PF Government was requesting some of the mining houses last week to open up and create more jobs. The reality is that this will not be possible. It would help if the ministry assists through the labour force market survey which we intend to carry out.  Let us find out what has been happening on the ground. We should know why the gross domestic product (GDP) growth appears to be going up instead of dropping as reflected in the way employment opportunities are being created.

 

Let us find out what has been happening. Why does the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) appear to be on the upswing, but does not reflect in the creation of employment opportunities?  If we do this, we will be assisting our colleagues to ensure that what is wished is realised.

 

Madam Chairperson, we should also ensure that we carry out labour inspections because once in a while, like happened this week, there is a complaint about some foreign employers possibly mistreating our people. It would help if the ministry could build capacity and improve in this regard. I am sure the hon. Minister remembers that the last time her colleague, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, gave a ministerial statement, he raised concerns about accidents in the mines which appeared to be escalating a little bit.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister might wish to escalate the work that is being done on the Factories Act and work hand in hand with her colleagues to carry out inspections so that the people in the mines can feel the ministry’s presence and respect our labour laws so that we do not lose lives.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak these few words.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Kufakwandi (Sesheke Central): Madam Chairperson, I wish to join my colleagues who spoke before me in thanking the hon. Minister for the policy statement that she mad. I will be very brief. I just want to raise a few points to compliment what other people have said.

Madam Chairperson, one of the controversies in this country is about employment figures. If I recall, the biggest debate we have had over the past two years is to dispute the employment figure that the Government has been publishing.

 

I think that it is important that we develop a system of providing employment statistics at regular intervals which will not only show the progress that we are making against the targets that we set, but also helps us in planning and strategising on how we can move and create a much more conducive environment for the creation of employment.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about the issue of wok permits. We have to have a carry-over policy which has been there since independence that we have to create and protect jobs for Zambians.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is really amazing today to find foreigners involved in areas such as the sale of salaula or chickens at markets and other areas. These are the areas which we should preserve and protect for our Zambian people. I was shocked to find people opening small shops to sell salaula in Sesheke.

 

Madam Chairperson, if our people cannot sell salaula, what else can they do? I think that these are matters that we have to look at. When we restrict the issuance of work permits, we will stimulate our interest in creating local skills through all these trade institutes that we have been talking about.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to raise the issue of equity in employment opportunities. This theme has been repeated over and over. We have to learn from the Kenyan model which restricts ministries or public institutions to employ a fixed number or a percentage from a particular region. No single region can dominate public space in the Civil Service. They have been given specific guidelines on this. It is a matter to also look at.

 

Madam Chairperson, there is also the issue of the lack of labour officers in the rural districts of the country. As we move towards industrialisation by opening up rural areas to set up various industries, the safety of workers must be paramount. There are a lot of people operating all sorts of manufacturing plants in the rural areas, but the safety of workers is really not guaranteed because there are no labour officers or inspectors.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other point I want to raise is what my colleague, the last speaker, touched on briefly. It appears to me that the Ministry of Labour and Social Security focuses a lot on people who are in employment. However, once they retire, they are not given sufficient help.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are about 140 people who worked for the defunct Zambezi Sawmills in Mulobezi and Sesheke who have not received their benefits. We are happy, of course, to learn that the hon. Minister of Finance has made provisions to dismantle these arrears. However, we believe that the Ministry of Labour and Social Security should take keen interest in following up matters like that. A lot of our people are really suffering and we have to assist them.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear! Ema summary, aya!

 

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to this important Vote.

 

First and foremost, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Securities for a well articulated statement on this Vote.

 

Madam Chairperson, who is a worker? At one time or the other, we all have been workers. What has happened in this country today is that workers have become destitute because they have died without getting their pensions or retirement packages.

 

Madam Chairperson, the reforms which this ministry will embark on are a welcome phenomenon. We have to support the effort of the ministry and what the President pronounced during the opening of this Parliament.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have to ensure that the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is given the mandate to inspect, like my friends stated, many areas including elevators and vessels.

 

These are things that have maimed our people who become lame and cannot put food on their family’s table.

 

Madam Chairperson, there is no Funeral Insurance in this country. Retirement packages are not for a few individuals but they must go across the board to include politicians. We have seen politicians coming through to beg for food even here at Parliament.

 

Laughter

 

Dr Daka: Madam Chairperson, the matter of pension schemes has to be taken seriously by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security. Everybody who has been a worker deserves to live a better life after worker. I was privileged to work for a company called National Milling Company limited long time ago but when I retired and went to National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) to claim my benefits, I was given K27 after being third in the hierarchy of the company. I contributed to that company throughout my working life but when Zambia Mining and Industrial Corporation (ZIMCO) and Industrial Development Corporation (INDECO) went under I was paltry. I know, Madam Chairperson, that we should not debate ourselves but we should not live in denial. We have lived in denial before. I have colleagues here who were once my workmates at INDECO like Mr Mbangweta, if I ask him, how much did he get from ZIMCO?

 

The First Chairperson: Mr Daka …

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: …we are debating policy and we should therefore, desist from debating ourselves. In fact, we should not debate ourselves at all.

 

Mr Daka: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. What I am saying is that we must have health insurance and funeral insurance cover for all Zambians. We must have pension benefits for the informal sector, a unified pension system and not a divided pension system. There are certain Constitutional Officer bearers that will live comfortably for the rest of their lives while there are others that do not see such benefits. So, in your policy, hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, make sure that everybody is covered.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Daka: Madam Chairperson, every Zambian is a worker including people like the one who works at my farm or in my kitchen, they must get a good living wage, for at the end of the day, they must be able to take care of their families. We should not send a worker to death after employment for lack of retirement benefits.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to support the reforms this ministry is going to carry out and I want to support the efforts that have been made before.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to thank you and I want to support the ministry for a commendable job that they are doing.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, I would like to comment very quickly on the issues raised on the Floor of the House. Mr Kabanda, I thank you for your encouraging words. I think many more laws will be revised.

 

Madam Chairperson, on the lack of production in the civil service, yes, this is a concern of everybody that there is laissez-faire in the Civil Service. I want to encourage the workers in the civil service that do not perform their duties or are not giving good service that their reward will not only be on earth but God will also judge them when they finally appear before him because we are here to add value to the world and not destroy it. We are working on the civil service reforms and we will make sure that job descriptions are given and their jobs will be measured as they go along. We are very much alive to the fact that everybody is complaining about the civil service. I hope the civil service workers…

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, when we went on tea break, I was commenting on Hon. Livune’s comments and I thank him for the support and to tell this House that the Zambia Union of Financial Institutions and Allied Workers (ZUFIAW) has actually four of its former executive members in the House including Mr Mbulakulima.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Simukoko: Hon. Livune used to provide a lot of checks and balances in the union; I hope he continues to do the same on the leadership of United Party for National Development (UPND).

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Especially on that one!

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, as regards to the laws that were commented on, we take note of the comments especially on the issue of strikes. Of course, there will be a review of all the labour laws and we are going to ensure that workers rights are promoted. What is a right to workers must be promoted.

 

I know that the labour laws were tampered with in the Second Republic, but we will definitely give the workers what is due to them. I think we all know that without the workers’ muscle, no wheel in this country can turn.

 

Madam Chairperson, concerning training of the hon. Members of Parliament on labour issues, I think it is important that we do so because sometimes there is a lot of ignorance when the laws are being passed. Therefore, training needs to be reinforced so that as we pass some of the labour laws, we really know what we are talking about.

 

Madam Chairperson, there have been challenges on the issue of labour inspectors and the hon. Minister of Finance has given us some money to train labour inspectors. The investors are moving too fast and because of that, most of the workers are facing a lot of difficulties. However, we are mindful and are appealing especially to the foreign investors to respect the labour laws of this country. Otherwise, we will differ with those who will continue ill-treating our workers.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have taken note of the imbalance on payment of workers. In Zambia, when we sign certain contracts, our people get inadequate payments. However, we always tell the workers in this country before they sign certain contracts to bring them to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security for testing which they do not do. Therefore, I hope that the people will bring the contracts to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security so that we can go through and ensure that we are satisfied with those contracts before they sign them.

 

Madam Chairperson, as regards to the Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE) threshold, I know that the workers in the formal sector have been complaining for many years, but we should also be mindful that 86 per cent of the workforce in this country belong to the informal sector. In the informal sector, workers do not normally pay PAYE and that is why we are trying hard to organise the informal sector so that we widen the tax base. I have already talked about sector based wages which we will be working on.

 

Madam Chairperson, on labour leaders who betray the workers, I can easily say that they will be voted out because the workers are normally very active on that. However, if they do not, God will deal with them because they belong to the family of Judas Iscariot if they do that. We should always know that the capitalists believe in work and work must die. Therefore, we should definitely appeal to the labour leaders to be proactive and to protect the workers.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Hon. Mbangweta for the kind words and for supporting the budget. I can only confirm that pension reforms will soon be introduced and we will need his support. Hon. Mbangweta was on the other side when I used to negotiate for pension reforms and he was very tough. I am happy that he has been baptised and is now speaking on behalf of the workers.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance has allocated …

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema repentance!

 

Mrs Simukoko: … money to the retirees. However, I want to state that the bulk is big. There are a lot of employees who have not been adequately paid their retirement benefits or not at all. I am also appealing to the trade unions and workers in general to show interest in payments towards the pension houses. Normally, they do not even care to see the statements as to whether the money is being remitted or not. When a worker has two years to retire that is when he or she becomes active meanwhile the employer would have mismanaged their pension.

 

Therefore, I am appealing to the workers, and it does not matter how old they are, to show interest in the deductions that go towards the pension houses. Half the time the employers do not remit the money and this is why most pension houses are not doing well so the workers should show interest in this activity. The hon. Minister of Finance has allocated money to the retirees and most of the arrears that have accumulated over the years are from the 1970s. Therefore, we are working together to ensure that the retirees’ benefits which have not been paid are dismantled and the hon. Minister of Finance has allocated some money in the Budget towards this cause.

 

Madam Chairperson, the National Pension Fund (NPF), Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) and National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) are also working together to reform their pension obligations. I think I have already talked about the labour inspectors. Hon. Kufakwandi talked about statistics. The labour force survey is proposed for 2017 so that accurate figures are given and I think you have seen this allocation in the Budget. We want to get accurate figures in the informal sector and the number of jobs being created. Therefore, the answer to having accurate job records lays in conducting a labour force survey which will be done next year.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the safety of workers, health and safety inspections will definitely be encouraged.  Hon. Mbangweta talked about the issue of the market survey and I think I have talked about that. I think Hon. Daka belonged to the Zambia National Provident Fund (ZNPF) and not NAPSA. This is because NAPSA is actually indexed, but the ZNPF was not. Therefore, he may have belonged to the ZNPF and that is why it was transformed because it was not giving value to the benefits. Health insurance will cover the informal sector. I hope I have answered some of the concerns that the hon. Members of Parliament have raised.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Votes 44/01, 44/02, 44/03 and 44/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 44/05 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – Planning and Research Department – K5,452,860).

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister did not address the issue which I raised under …

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Mbangweta, the hon. Minister dealt with policy. She delivered the policy statement of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and you debated. If you had issues to rise on the details, you should raise them now, if we have not passed that particular activity or programme. Do you have an issue on Head 44/05?

 

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5030, Activity 168 – Labour Force Survey – K2,000,000. Earlier, I said that under the Ministry of National Development and Planning, there is K2,500,000 allocated for the same activity, bringing the total to K4,500,000. Why is that so?

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, could the hon. Member repeat the programme and activity.

 

The First Chairperson: He said Programme 5030, Activity 168 – Labour Force Survey – K2,000,000. He also says this activity has also been budget for under the Ministry of National Development and Planning. If you are aware that under the Ministry of National Development and Planning, there is such an allocation, could you reconcile the two.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 5030, Activity 168 – Labour Force Survey – K2,000,000, the allocation is needed to collect, analyse and report on key indicators of the labour market. This activity is carried out after every two years and is due to be conducted in 2017.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Member: What about the other allocation?

 

The First Chairperson: She cannot answer for the Ministry of National Development and Planning. She has responded adequately for the activity that her ministry is undertaking.

 

Vote 44/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 44/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K1,301,433,962), VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – K452,771,529), VOTE 16 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – K72,878,557), VOTE 36 – (Zambia Correctional Service Commission – K5,882,710).

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver my ministry’s policy statement. Before I do that, I want to join my colleagues in conveying my heartfelt condolences to the family of the past Deputy Speaker, Hon. Mkondo Lungu, who was like a parent, colleague and friend, and for me, a predecessor, having served in the ministry where I am. May his soul rest in eternal peace.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to stand before this august House and present my ministry’s budget policy statement for the year 2017. Before I do that, allow me to congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance, Hon. Felix Mutati, MP, for an all embracing 2017 National Budget. May I also thank him for allocating K2.3 billion to maintenance of public safety, law and order.

 

Madam, the hon. Minister of Finance also drew our attention to the need for us to set priorities and ensure prudent use of resources. We have taken this cardinal advice into consideration in our preparation of the budget for my ministry. My ministry also took into account the revised Sixth National Development Planning (SNDP), the Strategic Plan of the ministry, the Patriotic Front (PF) manifesto and the Presidential directives and pronouncements in the preparation of the ministry’s budget.

 

Madam Chairperson, our mission statement states that:

 

“To provide and promote quality internal security services in order to create a safe, secure and peaceful environment for sustainable socio-economic development for all.”

 

Madam, the mandate of the Ministry of Home Affairs is discharged through its twelve departments and specialised agencies. These are:

 

1. The Zambia Police Service;

 

1. The Zambia Correctional Service;

 

1. The Drug Enforcement Commission;

 

1. Immigration Department;

 

1. Department of National Registration, Passports and Citizenship;

 

1. National Archives;

 

1. Registrar of Societies;

 

1. Home Affairs, Research, Planning and Information Department;

 

1. Commissioner for Refugees; and

 

1. Police Public Complaints Authority.

 

Madam Chairperson, to take care of emerging security threats, my ministry has further created the National Anti-terrorism Centre and the National Forensic Service Authority to regulate and improve forensic services. My ministry is funded by the Treasury through the three expenditure heads. These are Zambia Police - Ministry of Home Affairs, Zambia Correctional Services and Drug Enforcement Commission.

 

2016 Budget Programme Performance

 

Madam Chairperson, ensuring security of our lives and property as well as the observance of law and order requires a well trained and motivated human resource and adequate numbers in proportion to the population. My ministry pays particular attention to ensuring that the security institutions have adequate staffing levels. During the year under review, some departments were able to recruit more officers. The Zambia Correctional Services, for example, recruited and trained 401 officers while the Immigration Department only recruited and trained seventy six officers. On the other hand, the Zambia Police Service recruited and trained 1,700 officers against the requirement of 3,000 police officers per year. These recruitment levels were dictated by the resources available to the ministry. It will, therefore, take a while to have adequate staffing levels in all the departments under my ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, with respect to infrastructure development, my ministry has been constructing and rehabilitating offices and housing units for officers. Some of the key on-going construction projects, among others, are the construction of the Ministry of Home Affairs Headquarters and the construction of housing units and offices for all the security institutions under the ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, given the large number of housing units for staff required under my ministry, we have had to divide the construction of houses into phases. Phase I has already commenced and 2,350 housing units are under construction in the Lusaka, Copperbelt and Central Provinces. So far, a total number of forty-eight houses have since been completed and occupied by the relevant officers.

 

Madam Chairperson, to decongest the facilities without putting additional stress on the national Treasury, my ministry is constructing three correctional services facilities through public-private partnerships (PPPs). Two of the facilities are being constructed in Mwembezhi of Chilanga District. The two facilities have a designed capacity of 3,300 inmates, while the Mongu facility has a designed capacity of about 700 inmates.

 

Madam Chairperson, we are also effectively managing the movement of migrants. My ministry, in this regard, is constructing migration border posts and houses in the areas that require these facilities. New border posts houses for staff, for example, were built in Lukulu and Mwandi districts of the Western Province and Nsumbu District in the Northern Province.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship successfully carried out a mobile issuance of National Registration Cards (NRCs) in all the ten provinces. A total of 1,746,400 NRCs were issued against the target of 1,175,000. This was a big success.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: The department also procured and installed equipment for the issuance of more secure bio-metric NRCs in the Lusaka Province.

 

Madam Chairperson, Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 44 of 2016 was published to provide for the decentralisation of issuance of births and deaths certificates. You may wish to know, Madam, that children born in Mafinga will now be registered there and issued with Birth Certificates, for the first time in the history of this country.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, to align pieces of legislation under my ministry to the new Constitution, we have amended a number of Acts under our jurisdiction. The amended Acts include the Passport Act, the Citizenship Act, the Immigration and Deportation Act, the Police Public Complaints Authority Act and the Refugees Bill. My ministry also remains committed to the directive given by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, to work closely with the Ministry of Justice to review the Public Order Act.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry also continues to facilitate, regulate and control the flow of migrants into the country. This is essential to curb illegal migration and avert potential security threats. To ease the monitoring of migration flows, we have established and deployed the Zambia Electronic Border Management Information System, in line with the regional integration policies. We are also working with other relevant Government agencies to facilitate the movement of persons and goods through the establishment of the one-stop border post.

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry has also successfully managed the local integration of the former Angolan and Rwandese refugees. We have, in this regard, laid a firm foundation for the continued integration of the former refugees. To this end, 2,690 farm plots have been demarcated while 1,641 plots have been allocated to both the former refugees and Zambians in the Mayukwayukwa and Maheba Resettlement Schemes. The ministry also provides guidance and logistical assistance to the districts joint operations committees in districts that are regularly receiving asylum seekers. The asylum seekers are screened before being moved to refugee settlements. In 2016, we have so far screened and moved 1,470 asylum seekers to refugee camps.

 

Madam Chairperson, under the Registrar of Societies, the main new development was the launch of the Societies Registration System. This development is timely and in line with the Government’s policy of providing as much information and services as possible through on-line platforms widely known as e-governance. The Societies Registration System helped to improve service delivery in areas of registration, payment of annual returns and retrieval of information. In 2016, the department has so far registered 2,991 societies, including youth and women’s clubs, community service societies, religious organisations, political parties, pressure groups and professional associations.

 

Madam Chairperson, in 2016, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) has so far seized 52 tonnes of assorted illicit drugs, with an estimated street value of K613,374,630.82. The commission also seized the following:

 

1. laundered cash amounting to K450,216.50;

 

1. counterfeit notes with a face value of K45,498 and a total of US$53,351; and

 

1. properties including pieces of land and motor vehicles.

 

Challenges

 

Madam Chairperson, although my ministry scored many achievements in 2016, there were some challenges that equally undermined the quality of service delivered in a number of areas. The many problems are as follows:

 

Inadequate Office Space and Housing

 

Madam Chairperson, despite out construction programme being focused on the provision of decent office and housing accommodation for our officers, we are far from addressing the problem. However, this problem is likely to decline in significance with the completion of the ongoing construction projects.

 

Inadequate collection facilities

 

Madam, our correctional facilities remain over clouded despite our consented efforts over the last five years. However, this problem is likely to be substantially addressed once the correctional facilities being constructed under the Public Private Partnership (PPP) are completed.

 

Staffing Levels

 

Madam Chairperson, low staffing levels continues to undermine the service levels, which we would like to offer to the public. However, we shall continue to minimise the impact of this problem through continuous training of our staff and the use of information and communication technologies as well as continued recruitment of new officers.

 

Removal of Appropriation in Aid

 

Madam, the removal of appropriation in aid has impacted negatively on the revenue collection centres under my ministry because the department experience delays in receiving new accountable documents whenever they run out. To this effect, I have since engaged the hon. Minister of Finance to see how we can quickly address this issue.

 

2017 Budget Focus

 

Madam Chairperson, my ministry has prioritised crime prevention and detection in the year, 2017. To that end, we shall enhance public support in fighting crime. All the security institutions under my ministry shall, therefore, strengthen their community outreach programmes. This is essential to build confidence and support of the members of the public in crime detection and prevention.

 

Madam, the security institutions shall also strengthen and increase patrols particularly in crime prone areas and communities. The strategic focus of my ministry in 2017 will be on the following issues:

 

1. robust maintenance of internal security to ensure that law and order is maintained through the county;

 

1. investment in research on emergency security threats; and

 

1. promotion of information and communication technologies in data analysis and decision making.

 

Madam Chairperson Estimates for my ministry in the year, begging 1^st January to 31^st December, 2017 is K1,827,804,048. This represents an increase of 7 per cent over the 2016 Budget of K1,703,222,898. In terms of allocations to the three heads, the 2017 Budget has been allocated with K1,827,804,048 to Head 11.

 

The Zambia Police Service

 

Madam Chairperson, the programmes under the Zambia Police Service have been allocated with K1,301,433,962 while personal emoluments have been allocated with the total sum of K15,915,515.

 

The Drug Enforcement Commission

 

Madam, the Drug Enforcement Commission has been allocated with K72,878,557 of which K50,942,560 is for personal emoluments while the remaining K21,935,997 is for programmes under the commission.

 

Ministry of Home Affairs

 

Madam Chairperson, in the 2017 Budget, the ministry has been allocated K452,771,529 of which K3,507,149 is for personal emoluments while K125,693,087 is for programmes under the ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, allow me to state that my ministry that my ministry shall remain resolute in maintaining Zambian’s status as an oasis of peace in the region and the world.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: We take our responsibility of protecting the lives and property in Zambia very seriously.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: We shall continue to work tirelessly and ensure that criminal syndicates, terrorists and petty criminals do not get entrenched in our country.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: In the name of politics!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam, it is important to prevent and fight crime to ensure that peace and security prevails because there are can never be sustainable development where crime and insecurity exist. We shall, therefore, uphold Zambia’s reputation of being a peaceful county where all persons enjoys rights to the fullest.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also wish to extend an invitation to all hon. Members to visit one of our very important departments under my ministry, the department of the National Archives. This is where the history of this country is anchored. All the records starting from the other century to this century are kept. I must say that I was impressed when I visited the department to find His Royal Highness, Chief Chitimukulu buried in the library researching. The department can help resolve some wrangles that some people have been having in their chiefdoms and many others areas such as boundaries and alike.

 

Madam, let me take this opportunity to submit that we shall be on the offensive against criminal elements. I want to repeat that we shall be offensive against the criminal elements and those that are bent on promoting lawlessness. The allocations meant to departments and agencies under my ministry shall help to ensure that our country to continue to enjoy peace because when peace is lost, it does not choose and no one is spared. Therefore, we have a collective responsibility as citizens to make sure that the peace that we have enjoyed continues to be the case.

 

Madam Chairperson, finally, may I call upon all hon. Members of this August House to support my ministry’s budget Estimates for the year, 2017 as presented.

 

 Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Madam First Chairperson: Order!

 

Remember that the policy debate has been combined with heads 11, 15, 16 and 36.

 

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on this vote.

 

Madam, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for having given us a policy statement from the ministry that he superintends over. Basically, my debate is on the Zambia Collection Services. So, I have just taken a component of this ministry.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Zambia Correctional Services (ZCS) is a very important section of our internal security. This department is currently looking after well over 20,000 offenders and prisoners or inmates if you like. I know the immense task that goes with looking after so many people. I want to say, and it has been said before on the Floor of this House, that each one of us is a potential prisoner.

 

Therefore, it goes without saying that we must take interest in what goes on in our prisons. As a result, I stand here to, first of all, commend the officers under ZCS who, in spite of the difficult conditions under which they operate, look after more than 20,000 people. We have just been told of the greatest challenge that is currently obtaining in our prisons, which is congestion. We have an incarceration rate of well over 20 per cent, against very few prison facilities, most of which were constructed in the colonial era.

 

Madam Chairperson, managing our prison facilities is no mini task. I know that the officers under ZCS have tried their best and have been innovative. I think ZCS is the only government department that I admire in as far as being innovative in trying to mobilise resources outside what is provided for in the National Budget. The ZCS has farms which are now mechanised and even have centre pivots. The department is also running a milling operation. All these go to supplement the efforts of the Government. However, I think we should begin to take bold steps in decongesting our prisons. It is simply unacceptable that more than 20,000 people can be crammed up in very small spaces.

 

Madam Chairperson, prisoners are people like us. They must enjoy all the human rights except one, which is the freedom of movement. However, we know that it is not uncommon for society to simply treat them as outcasts and forget about them. In this particular case, my interest is on the health side of the issue of prisoners.

 

Madam Chairperson, looking after 20,000 people requires that these people must be provided with the necessary and requisite health services of the same standard as that which is obtaining outside prison. This is because, first of all, health is a right. Therefore, prisoners have a right to health services of the same standard like you and I. If we do not ensure that, all our efforts in trying to combat diseases of public interest, such as HIV/AIDS, will come to zero. This is because the people in prisons will come out one day. On the other hand, these people interact with the prison staff. If we do not provide them with good health services, they will obviously continue to spread some of these infectious diseases when they come out. It is, therefore, incumbent upon this House to take an interest and ensure that we accord them the right to health, and of the same standard as ourselves, especially if we have to control the spread of infectious diseases.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am, of course, informed about these matters because of the work that I do outside my parliamentary responsibilities as a prison advocate. The HIV/AIDS prevalence rate in our prisons is more than 20 per cent and, as you know, here on the outside it has come down to as low as 11 per cent. So if we do not take an interest in this matter, then we are certainly obliterating the gains that we are making on the HIV/AIDS pandemic in the country.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is for this reason that I would like to advocate for the same control measures that we institute outside prison to be extended to our prisoners. If the rate of HIV/AIDS prevalence is high in the prisons, the question is; how is transmission going on in there? If condom distribution has been effective outside, why can it not also be instituted in our prisons or among our prisoners? I know that in this country, there are ethical or legal issues, but I think that it is no use burying our heads in the sand. The truth of the matter is that transmission is occurring within our prison settings. We must take an interest and find out how this is happening. If some control measures are working outside, my view is that they must also be instituted in the prisons. Of course, I am informed that doing so currently would be in conflict with some of our laws, particularly the Penal Code and Prisons Act, which are incidentally very old and outdated.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Dr Kalila: I think that as legislators we should begin to look at some of these issues and obviously modernise our Prisons Act and also amend some of these barriers to best practices in the control of some of these infectious diseases.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to implore the ministry responsible for the correctional services that I think it is high time we came up with a policy of dealing with circumstantial children. These are children that are born in prison or children that sometimes enter prison with their mothers. As you can imagine, they are actually serving prison sentences for crimes that they never committed. I think that we need to find a way of dealing with these children. We must find a way of ensuring that they are not subjected to the trauma of growing up in prisons. I think we are the right people that can do that.

 

Madam Chairperson, I said my debate would be very much restricted to the prisons or correctional services and the challenges that they are facing. First of all, there is so much congestion that is going on in the prisons. Of course, there are three new correctional facilities that are being constructed, but these are a drop in the ocean. It is a good start, but they are still a drop in the ocean. That is why we need to strengthen the aspect of non-custodial sentencing. We must scale-up on the work of our parole system.

 

Madam Chairperson, when hon. Members of Parliament visited the Lusaka Central Prison sometime last year, we found that a high number of those people who are in there are actually remandees. Some of them have been waiting to go to court for as long as two years. That contributes to the congestion in prisons. I know that this is not a problem that can be sorted out by one government institution.

 

Therefore, this is a matter which the Ministry of Home Affairs, dealing with the Judiciary and police of course, needs to find a way of ensuring that these people are taken to court very quickly. I do not remember the exact statistics, but I think at least 30 per cent of the people in there are actually waiting to be taken to court and here we are complaining about the massive congestion in prisons. So I think these are some of the things which we can do in the short term to ensure that we begin to deal with this problem.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to thank you for this opportunity and I end here. Thank you.

 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Home Affairs is essentially responsible for the welfare of citizens. Indeed, this is a very important ministry which requires very responsible people in place. It requires people who have a heart to protect the citizens from harm or danger. As the hon. Minister has put it, it is suppose to maintain law and order.

 

However, is that the case in Zambia? Today, we are seeing a paradigm shift from the key role of the ministry to that of a political player. What we are seeing is that crimes these days are now being committed by the opposition political party members only. Those in the Ruling Party are protected. That is not the kind of ministry we should have if we are approving its budget in this House.

 

Today, there is congestion in prisons and the reason for this is simple, non performance of police officers. Cases are supposed to be investigated thoroughly before you take action. However, what is happening in this country is that the first crime a person can commit is belonging to the Opposition.  Even when there is no case against you, policemen will be sent to arrest you. If you go to prisons to investigate, you will find that the majority of the people there are innocent.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima: The problem is that we are not careful. We are not diligent in dealing with the welfare of the people. We need to have a police service, but we have a police force. The police force is one institution harassing innocent Zambians. When you drive a canter on the road, you are a criminal by nature to traffic officers. When you drive a truck, you are a criminal by nature. You get inconvenienced when you do not bribe them. It has become a habit that when you drive these types of vehicles, you must have excess money to be giving to traffic officers as you move. Now, with the addition of toll gates you are putting on the road, you are over-taxing the people. The police have become so powerful, especially that we have additional policemen called cadres who act in the name of the Patriotic Front (PF).

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: These people have become untouchable. Only yesterday, they were in Soweto collecting money from innocent people operating under the pylons. This story was on television. I expected the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to send the police to go and investigate and arrest those criminals in that market. These are PF criminals.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: Crime in Zambia has increased because the Government is protecting criminals, those who are ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Muchima!

 

Mr Muchima: Sir, Mama!

 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

 

The First Chairperson: The word “Criminal” is unparliamentary.

 

Mr Muchima: I withdraw it. The hon. Minister used the word and that is why I repeated it.

 

The First Chairperson: But you are the one on the Floor.

 

Mr Muchima: I withdraw it. I replace it with “lawbreakers”.

 

Madam Chairperson, I should give the Ministry of Home Affairs credit for removing road blocks. I congratulate it for doing that. That is the way to go. If the ministry wants our support, its staff should move away from behaving like cadres. They should be professional. The hon. Minister in charge of this ministry has been an hon. Deputy Minister and now he is a full Cabinet hon. Minister. If he does not have knowledge, we are here to help him. Let us manage the affairs of this country in a manner that will be appreciated.

 

Most of us have gone to prison for no reason at all and that is very bad for a country like Zambia. This should not be happening fifty years after independence. When the Government sees that it has no evidence against a person, it enters a nolle prosequi. Who are you punishing? God is there and he is seeing your sins. You will be punished more than others.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima: The cost of running the prisons is increasing because the Government is not efficient and effective. It is not taking cases to court when they are due. It is delaying to take cases to court as such, everyday, it is incarcerating people and those people need to be fed. They need to be looked after. That is a cost. Prison officers are good officers. They are not corrupt. However, I cannot say the same about police officers. We need a police that is modern, a police that will follow the law and not political instructions. The kind of police officers we have today follow political instructions. You will find a cadre in a district like Ikeleng’i giving instructions to a police officer-in-charge to go and arrest someone and the poor police officer is scared that he will be dismissed if he does not follow the cadre’s instructions. Cadres have seen that the Government has appetite to dismiss all those who support the United Party for National Development (UPND).

 

Mr Ngulube: Boma ni Boma

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Mr Muchima: Those who support the PF are kings. They are being left alone.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: What sort of law and order is this? I have examples of people who have been dismissed. In Solwezi, two days ago, all those civil servants with Lunda names and Tonga names were dismissed ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: Yes! I know it. The Government is creating a problem that will become a source of crime. Those dismissed people will be bitter for forever. This never happened in the days of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD). In the days of the MMD, the Government never restricted anybody from holding a meeting or to carry our political activities. It never happened at all anywhere. I was an hon. Minister for the Southern Province which was a UPND stronghold. I never gave instructions to restrict anybody from carrying out political activities, but today ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Boma!

 

Mr Muchima: That Boma will never be permanent for you. Wait and see. We are coming.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Muchima: We are on the way.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Muchima: You are lucky being helped by hired people from a well-trained political ...

 

Laughter

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, majority of the foreigners in the prisons have broken immigration laws. They have been there for very long indeed. Those people are supposed to be there for only five days or a week and then they have to be deported. The Government is quick to provide a vehicle to pick Hakainde and Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba (GBM) ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Question! ...

 

Mr Muchima: ... from Luanshya to Mukobeko, but you cannot pick those deportees from prisons. Pick them and remove them from prisons so that we can have space in prisons. We need space in prisons. There are too many deportees and the Government is moving too slowly on this issue and this is one of the reasons for congestion in our prisons. We have no food to feed our prisoners. We need food to feed our people there.

 

Madam Chairperson, we need the police service to be independent. Police officers should be left to think on their own. Let us explore their intelligence. Politicians in the Government are interfering with their work a lot. The Government has money to send troops to go and arrest one person. Where is it getting the money? Meanwhile, it is saying that there is no money for the Budget. However, when the Government hears that Garry Nkombo is in Mazabuka trying to address a meeting, it will send buses with troops there. That is misuse of Government money. As Government, you have serious issues you should be looking at. Do not interfere in the work of the people who are supposed to maintain law and order. Police officers are becoming careless because they know your problems. You are supposed to be spending money on investigating crime. Before the Government effects any arrest, it should investigate a case thoroughly. However, it is usually in a hurry to arrest people, especially if their case has a political connotation to show that it has the power.

 

Madam Chairperson, in prisons, there is a lot of inhuman treatment.

 

Mr Ngulube: In conclusion.

 

Mr Muchima: I am not concluding now.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Muchima: There is a lot of inhuman treatment in prisons. People there are not fed accordingly. They are human beings and need to be fed. You should see the way they sleep. On one small bed, sixteen or seventeen people sleep on it. Those who are lucky sleep on beds, others sleep while standing.

 

Hon. Government Members: How do you know?

 

Mr Muchima: I have been there. I know. This is an area which the hon. Minister should check.

 

Madam Chairperson, with regard to enforcement of drug related offences; I want to say that we need to review our laws. This is because some people who are arrested as offenders are not worthy being arrested. In as much as you want to follow the law, it is high time that you reviewed this law. Other countries like United Kingdom (UK), United States of America (USA) and Malawi have revised their laws concerning certain drugs. For instance, Indian hemp is now commonly used in factories to produce fabrics and oil for medicine.

 

Unfortunately, here in Zambia everything is banned simply because there is that word “cannabis”. Everything is just as it were many years ago. I would advise that we should learn to review our old laws and be abreast to what is happening in the world. Let us not remain behind forever.

 

Indian hemp can be grown in Zambia. It has no side effects that makes one feel drowsy but it can be used in industries. It is available.

 

Mr Mushanga: Here it is illegal!

 

Mr Muchima: Here it is illegal that is why you will remain poor. You cannot even tar your roads and you are always crying.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Chiteme: Imwe mwali sungapo?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Muchima: Hon. Minister, I wish to advise you that as you begin spending this money in your budget, you must also look at the plight of the people living in remote rural areas.

 

For example, in Jimbe, there is a camp which was built a long time ago with beautiful houses but it has been abandoned. The houses are not electrified and nothing has been done to improve on them, yet this is a camp that is supposed to accommodate your police officers. I have mentioned this issue time and again under different regimes of ministers but no action has been taken.

 

Be mindful that these are border areas and you need to have proper facilities such as camps for police officers and take care of them.

Mr Mushanga: Kokolapo!

 

Mr Muchima: I cannot kokolapo!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Muchima: You cannot use me for approving money.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Muchima: Madam Chairperson, we are requesting the hon. Minister to apply this budget effectively. Do not apply it on harassing innocent people. All of us need to be protected by the police.

 

Nowadays, if I went to the police station with a problem, I will be told that there is no transport and manpower. And yet when I go outside, I will immediately find fifteen traffic cars parked.

 

Again, whenever the Opposition is having a rally, they will be surrounded by police officers. Police officers are not supposed to be in such places, but at the police stations. Those cars they use in such instances are supposed to be parked at the police stations so that they are able to attend to all of us. Nowadays, it is even scary to go to police station especially if you belong to the Opposition. This is because we do not know whether the Minister allows them to carry out investigations. Yet, the Minister is not supposed to be initiating investigations. They are supposed to be allowed by law. This is what the law states.

 

Madam Chairperson, this is a very important ministry but the people involved should behave according to the law.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Government Member: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Members, before I allow the next hon. Member to speak, I would like to make a clarification on the use of the word “criminal” by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs as well as Hon. Muchima. Unparliamentary words are considered in context. The use of the word “criminal” by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs was in the context that under the Penal Code, criminals are offenders. That is why he was allowed to use that word. As for Hon. Muchima, he used it in an offensive manner by referring to Patriotic Front (PF) members as criminals. “PF criminals” …

 

Ms Mulenga: Punish him!

 

The First Chairperson: … that is why I ruled him out of order. So, I want to you to remember that when we say unparliamentary language, it must be taken in context.

 

I hope that is clear.

Mr Mushanga: Wamvela Muchima!

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima (Chirundu): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, I will confine my debate to the Zambia Police. Under normal circumstances, when we were debating the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) and State House, I said that if I had my way, I would have not supported this Vote because of one element at State House who had wronged the country.

 

The Zambia Police over a period of time have not performed their duties as they are called upon by the citizens. They have, whether deliberately or not, or by way of being instructed to behave that way, have lost the confidence of the people.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: And so, they must work extra hard to regain the confidence of the people.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Sometime perception can be louder than reality. The percept of the police today, is that they are not the people’s police.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: For fifty-two years now, we were coming from a One Party State which was there for twenty-seven year. There was a President and the Government but they had to leave after twenty-seven years. They had the police, the military and the air force. When time came to leave, they had to leave but they neither took with them the police nor the defence forces. So, we have had presidents and governments that have left. We had the Chiluba Government for ten years. They left but they left the institutions of the State.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Dr Mwanawasa came in for eight years, may his soul rest in peace (MHSRIP), he left the institutions of the State and the police itself.

 

Mrs Simukoko: But that is the law!

 

Mr Syakalima: So, therefore, nobody carries away the state institutions.

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: This is why state institutions must conform to the dictates of the Constitution and nobody else.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: That is right!

 

Mr Syakalima: That is why I am saying that over the few years that they have to serve, the police have to work extra hard to earn the confidence of the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Therefore, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs must persuade me why I should accept to support the budget of the Zambia Police and yet I know that most of the money will be used to buy sticks which they use to brutalise our people.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Again, why should I support this budget when I know that most of the money will be used to buy tear gas? That tear gas is quite bad for human inhalation. They just spray tear gas anyhow even indoors.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Syakalima: The UN Convention does not allow that. Sometimes, even in court they threaten to spray tear gas. It is unacceptable.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: So, they are the people’s police, they should behave like the people’s police.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Not long ago, we had the police shoot at an innocent small girl.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

Mr Ngulube: Same story!

 

Mr Syakalima: It is still in our heads. You cannot say the same story that is a human being that was lost.

 

Mr Nkombo: You are laughing!

 

Mr Syakalima: These are not laughable matters, Madam Chairperson.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Wait until it is your turn!

 

Mr Syakalima: A human life was lost.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: I think that the parents and relatives of that girl are still feeling bad. I too feel bad even if she is not my blood. Injustice done on one person is injustice for every one of us. What hurts directly can hurt everybody indirectly. These are the things we are talking about.

 

For your own information, I can tell you that nothing has been investigated over that lost soul as far as this case is concerned up to date.

 

Hon. Government Member interjected.

 

Mr Syakalima: It does not matter whether it was one person who was killed. The police kill in the name of the President.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: He is the Commander-in-Chief. When a trigger is pulled …

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Syakalima: If you do not know those are the consequences.

 

Mr Chiteme: Everything is about the President!

 

Mr Syakalima: Yes, you cannot do anything without saying this is in the name of the President.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, we appeal to the police to be magnanimous even if they are under political pressure. Sometimes we pity them. They are in an institution which remains even though Governments come and go. We have seen many regimes come and go. Like I said, politicians are like people who go to the toilet. If you go into the toilet you will surely come out. You cannot be a permanent resident of a toilet. The same applies to the Government, you can never be permanently there.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: The institutions of the State will remain. This is why we are saying that the police must do the jobs they are called upon to do.

 

Madam Chairperson, there were youth day commemorations a couple of years ago and one little girl was stripped naked as the policed watched.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Syakalima: It occurred at a Youth Day function being overseen by Her Honour the Vice-President.

 

Hon. Government Members: Where?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: You do not know?

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I heard the hon. Minister say they will enforce the law with full force and we know that he is not talking about criminals, but about political opponents. Why is it that we are not given space ...

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Syakalima, the hon. Minister did not make reference to political opponents in his statement. He talked about criminals. Please, let us not go there.

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, it is me who is saying it.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: I am arguing that when the hon. Minister says ‘full force’ my mind tells me he is not afraid of the ones he is talking about. These are my words and not the words of the hon. Minister.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kabanda: On a point of order, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Sit down!

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Kabanda, please, sit down. Hon. Syakalima is on the Floor.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, what I am trying to put into context is that every citizen must be given space. The police must not be used as a tool of oppression as we have seen time and again. We ask that they behave above board. We also have relatives in the police services, so, generally speaking, they must behave like any other Zambians. Just as they serve this Government, they will serve another. The problems we have with our friends in the PF is that they want destroy all state institutions.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Syakalima: When they leave power, where will they go if they destroy those state institutions?

 

Mr Ngulube: 100 years in power!

 

Mr Livune interjected.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, I hope the hon. Minister of Religious Affairs and National Guidance is listening. She has got a mammoth task because the police must be guided. Even if they know what to do, they do not seem to see that extrajudicial killings are not permissible. Even the wildest offender must have their day in court. You cannot just kill a person. We recently overheard a police commissioner say that they will break people legs because they are immune, but they are not immune.

 

Madam Chairperson, justice is very important. I was incarcerated for five days in Livingstone at the time when Hon. Nkombo was accused of murder and when I came out I pursued justice. I was arrested with twenty-nine people, but think about these other people who were unable to afford to seek justice. When I was released I went to court because I follow justice wherever it goes. You cannot just push me around.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Basankwa!

 

Mr Syakalima: Madam Chairperson, the wheels of justice grind slowly in this country. The case started in 2013 and only this year in May was I given justice. The police were told that they have to carry out investigations instead of just picking people up and throwing them in jail.

 

Madam Chairperson, the police commissioner was able to say he would break our legs and we would have no recourse simply because if you take him to court it is the state which will pay. For me, it was about justice and not compensation. These officers misbehave simply because the money is not coming from their pockets. They do whatever they want to do and as a result the state loses a lot of money. Many people do not understand what goes on, but the hon. Minister can tell you how much we compensate aggrieved parties. It took me four years to find justice, but this is not even about compensation, it is about freedom. Those five days were bad for me ...

 

Mr Ngulube: How much, Sir?

 

Mr Syakalima: ... because I had to stay in that filthy place.

 

Madam Chairperson, Thomas Jefferson says “rebellion to tyranny is obedience to God”.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Do not use the police to become tyrants. Like Canton says:

 

“In every age it has been the tyrant, the oppressor and the exploiter who has wrapped himself in the cloak of patriotism, or religion, or both to deceive and overawe the people.”

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Syakalima: Sometimes, we use religion and patriotism to deceive the people. God forbid!

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The First Chairperson: Hon. Mwiimbu, I noticed that you wanted clarification as to whether in view of the combination of these Heads we will allow the usual four hon. Members to debate and the answer is no. I will allow more than the four to debate.

 

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for allowing us to deal with the multiple heads in the process of approving this Budget. In a criminal justice system the presumption of innocence plays a key role. Today we are dealing with a matter that will address the conduct of the police. I have a few comments away from what the other hon. Members said regarding the conduct of the police, whose budget we are just about to consider.

 

Madam Chairperson, the behaviour of the police is a reflection of those who supervise them.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I would like to make these comments bearing in mind that the Minister of Home Affairs is my kid brother and must take my comments as such.

 

The First Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister of Home Affairs is not your kid brother and he is nobody’s brother while he is in this House. He is an hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your correction. I would like to put it that in our various walks of life, apart from here, he is a younger brother of mine and he must take my comments in that regard. He should know that human beings come and go. Institutions remain. That should always be at the back of his mind. I am saying that the presumption of innocence until one is proven guilty is fundamental to everyone’s well-being. In this House, the hon. Minister said that he will go head-on with criminals. We will support him for that because we need a descent and just society.

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to give a word of caution to the hon. Minister through the Chair. We know that less than a month ago, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs was on the Floor of this House arguing about some incarcerated colleagues of ours on the Copperbelt, what we thought were political arrests. The hon. Minister is on record of having said that those people are suspects of dangerous crimes.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I also want to state that there is fundamental difference between a remandee and a convict. This is now for the Correctional Services Commission (CSC) because they intersect with the police. As I am talking, we have a colleague of ours who is a remandee and he is going to court. That is a fact. Two weeks ago or slightly more, the same people that the hon. Minister referred to as suspects of dangerous crimes were committed to the high court. One of them should have been sitting in this honourable House because he was a candidate in Chimwemwe Constituency. His name is Ronald Manenga.

 

Mr Ngulube: He was not going to win.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, he went to jail for more than three months on suspicion of being a dangerous criminal together with our Copperbelt Provincial Chairman. This is the reason why Hon. Syakalima said that he got his gut feeling that when the hon. Minister referred to criminals, he meant political adversaries. We are living in the time when most of us who are saying “no” to the Patriotic Front (PF) are perceived to be criminals. We have a right to think that way. I should not belabour the point of Chimpenzi Chibulo, who was killed in cold blood by the police. Today, we are about to appropriate money to the police in order for them to kill us even more.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, when human beings are born, they are normally innocent. It is systems that make human beings bad.  If they do not believe that it is systems that make human being bad, they should go back into the history. It is not even in the far history. During the reign of President Frederick Chiluba and President Levy Mwanawasa, May Their Souls Rest in Peace, these judicial killings were not there. We had a few judicial killings during the reign of President Kaunda. Therefore, one can argue that there is something that is slightly in common between that era and this particular one we are in. We know that frightened people behave in a certain way.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, what do I mean? Naturally, a dog is a coward unless it is trained. If you go into its domain and it charges and you charge back, it will coil its tail and walk about. What I am saying is that there is nothing to fear. We are in a democratic dispensation where we are allowed to believe in political persuasions that are different from others.

 

Madam Chairperson, I come from a place called Mazabuka. The way the police in Mazabuka treat us is slightly different from the way the police treat us in Kasama. What I am trying to say here is that they have gone beyond the Public Order Act. The Public Order Act has got its provisions. Today, in Kasama or the entire Northern Province, you cannot even have an indoor meeting. It will be called a public meeting. Why are people scared? What is the fear all about? People enjoy fundamental rights and freedoms to assemble. They enjoy fundamental freedoms to associate and move. My opening remark referred to the presumption of innocence until one is proven guilty. I wish to urge the hon. Minister that these police will deceive him. They will be saluting him and they will not tell him where he is going wrong. They will be saluting to him until he becomes like the former hon. Minister of Home Affairs. Now, we see him all the time. He is a destitute.

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Can you stop debating the minister in his personal capacity? He will not be a destitute, please.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I am just giving caution that he should take ...

 

The First Chairperson: Debate the policy, Hon. Nkombo.

 

Mr Nkombo: ... heed and not put a heavy hand on his police. We know that there is a good number of good policemen. We are talking like this because we talk to them. These policemen complain that they are under command to what they are doing.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Nkombo: How can the whole battalion of more than 100 policemen come to arrest a simple person like me? How can a battalion of 500 police men cease the entire Copperbelt for a call out of Mr Hakainde Hichilema and Mr Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba and even called on the whole Luanshya town ...

 

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

 

Mr Nkombo: ... for a trumped-up charge? Why are they putting pressure on the Ministry of Finance for lost claims? If they take me in illegally, I will come and claim. We have learnt examples from the Rodger Chongwe case of police behaving in a manner that is savagery and barbaric. Today, Rodger Chongwe is owned money by this Government. I know it was not the PF Government at that time but they owe him money for what happened to him in Kabwe. He had to go and seek justice from the International Court. I think this Government must have a bit of lenience on our finances. There is no reason why they should be paying compensation for what one would call stupidity.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Withdraw that, Hon. Nkombo.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw that and I am sorry.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, there is no way they should be paying compensation for slow thinking and not applying oneself by operating like a machine. It is not good to say that when somebody belongs to a different political divide, then they should be locked up and fyalai solver, which means, it will sort itself out. As I am explaining now, the four alleged dangerous criminals walked to freedom at high court because there was no evidence. They were simply told to go home and see their wives. What an inconvenience. What kind of society are we building? It is not fair. To some of us, incarceration means nothing and we will not stop to try and put them right. It is our Constitutional right to say where we think things are wrong. I know the police are listening. Stop brutalising us? Stop it forthwith! Do not even laugh. This is not a laughing matter.

 

Mr Kanganja smiled.

 

Mr Nkombo: I can see the Inspector-General of Police (IG) is laughing. This is not a matter that we should be laughing at.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Nkombo, it is not done. You have enough experience to know. You cannot make reference to officers who are here to assist their hon. Ministers.

 

Hon. PF Member: Those who are not members of this House.

 

The First Chairperson: It is not done and it is not fair. I think that you have exhausted your debate.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: No, I have not.

 

The First Chairperson: Can I also give you further counsel? When you, senior hon. Members of this House, stand to debate, I expect that you will ensure to be role models for the new hon. Members of Parliament who are looking up to you to learn the rules of debate. I expect that you will use the correct language. Let us not depart from this responsibility. I am looking at you, Hon. Nkombo, because you are also a whip.

 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: You may continue with your debate but, please, bear in mind what I have said.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I hear you and sympathise that we have to take this route.

 

Madam Chairperson, in a balanced society, rules apply and are followed. I am addressing the hon. Minister, through you, to tell the police to stop brutalising us. It is simply not fair.

 

Ms Mwashingwele: That is right!

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: I would like these words to touch the hon. Minister’s heart. It is simply not fair and we cannot continue to pretend that society is balanced because it is not.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: The Society is not balanced and my colleague here said that oppressed people can only be oppressed for a certain amount of time. This is how it works in society. Even when you inflate a balloon, it gives up at a certain point. You cannot just continue to blow it because at one time, it will pop and you will have yourself to blame. We are one people and this is what I am trying to say.

 

Now, the police which is an institution that is supposed protect everybody should only be the preserve of a selected few.

 

Madam, in my conclusion, I will be as civil as possible. The police have failed lamentably and I find it difficult to say yes to this Vote. Why do I say so? Four days ago, a horde of Patriotic Front (PF) cadres besieged the Independence Avenue and marching onward to the civic centre demanding jobs and all sorts of things from this Government.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Nkombo: The police just watched them and yet, if I, alone, decided to stage a protest, which is my fundamental human right, there will be a battalion of police. I would like the police to treat society the same way.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: We are neither asking nor pleading for favours. The harder they come, the harder they fall. The idea of thinking that you can subdue people is long gone.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: You can colour me white, black or anything that you want, but I will still be me. You should never forget that the only thing that is constant is change. Like my colleague said, you cannot sit in the bathroom permanently. The time comes when you have to come out.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Nkombo: I am pleading with the Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Steven Kampyongo. This may sound like a laughing matter, but it is eating at the fabric of this society as the police are being perceived as enemies of society.

 

The hon. Minister talked about going head-on with criminals. There are certain societies that are unfortunate and find that criminals are the ones in control where it can be said that the Dracula is the head of the blood bank. Do you expect the blood to last? The answer is no.

 

Madam Chairperson, we should all do some introspection. There are criminal elements in everyone. So, do not apply those even to the barest minimum. Let us play the civil game.

 

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Nkombo: We have tea here together, so, do not go outside and brutalise our people simply because they believe in what we believe in. It is simply not fair.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: We eat nshima with them.

 

Mr Nkombo: You went to the right side of the House from the left because you were champions of justice.  Live up to that dream.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Lubezhi: Quality!

 

 Mr Kabanda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to respond to the policy statement by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

 

Madam Chairperson, it is gratifying that the Government is alive to most of the challenges that the Ministry of Home Affairs is facing, particularly as regards equipment in the Police Service. The Police Service lacks contemporary equipment to assist it fight crime.

 

Madam Chairperson, we need to allocate more resources to the Police Service so that it can leave up to the expected standards of a modern police service.

 

Madam Chairperson, most times, the police cannot collect adequate evidence because of the lack of facilities which are supposed to be sued in investigating cases, not the political cases that my friend alluded to, but criminal ones.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to adopt Hon. Dr Kalila’s observations as my own. The prisons are certainly congested and the hon. Minister has agreed and stated that the Government is doing something to address the issue by building more infrastructure in Mwembeshi.

 

Madam Chairperson, notwithstanding, we need to equip the prisons with facilities like mattresses because all of us are potential prisoners even as we sit here.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kabanda: So, we need to make the prisons habitable for all of us. Prisons are like graveyards. We will all go to the grave and should, therefore, look after them properly. At one time or the other we will all get there.

 

Madam Chairperson, the centre pivot that the Government has acquired at great cost must be operated by people who are trained. The hon. Minister should ensure this. His Excellency the President outlined in this House that there is need to mechanise our agriculture sector. This equipment will help to increase food production hence the need for people who are qualified to operate it as opposed to allowing prisoners in prison farms to operate them. We may regret the waste of the money.

 

Mr Ngulube: In conclusion!

 

Mr Kabanda: In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, ...

 

Laughter

 

Ms Lubezhi: Ema Opposition, aba!

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube: Quality!

 

Mr Kabanda: ... I want to also add that the police lack furniture in their offices. Most police stations do not have furniture. We should actually look how we can help provide furniture to prisons as well. There is also need to rehabilitate existing infrastructure. Most prisons are very old and may just need a coat of paint. The same can be said about police stations so that they can become useful public institutions.

 

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

 

Vote 15/10, Vote 15/11, Vote 15/12, Vote 15/13, Vote 15/14, Vote 15/15, Vote 15/16, Vote 15/17, Vote 15/18, Vote 15/19, Vote 15/20, Vote 15/21, Vote 15/22, Vote 15/23 and Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

 

 

Mr Ngulube: Ema debate, aya!

 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to debate the budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs and in particular the budget for the Zambia Police.

 

Madam Chairperson, as I debate, I will be failing in my duty if I do not recognise individuals who have performed very well as Inspector-Generals of Police. I am not going to name them.

 

Mr Ngulube: He is here (pointing at Dr Malama).

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I think all of us will know who I am referring to.

 

Mr Nkombo: Dr Malama!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I am referring to one patriotic son of the soil who is now a Member of Parliament…

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … Dr Malama, the former Inspector-General of Police.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, when Hon. Dr Malama was Inspector-General of Police, there was professionalism in the police.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I would like to plead with those who are serving now …

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Refuse if he is not telling the truth!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … to emulate this particular son of Zambia.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, us on your left are envious of the past police services that were providing services to this country. Gone are days where a member of the public will not run away but assist the police to perform their duties. These days when you see a policeman or woman in the street or approach your home, you have to start thinking of what you have done. In the past when you see a policeman coming to your home, you feel relieved that you are under the good hands of the law; it is no longer the case.

 

Madam Chairperson, members of the public fear to go and report a crime to the police that is why there is a tendency that if an incident has happened in a township, the members of the public riot. If there is an incident in the townships, members of the public take the law in their own hands and discipline the person who has done wrong. There is a very dangerous perception that the police will not side with those who are law abiding. That is what the public believes in these days.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: We have to change the perception. The police are there to police law and order. We expect the police to be on the side of every Zambian. The police must be seen to be assisting anyone who is aggrieved. What has happened now or the perception out there is that if you are a poor person, whose has a grievance with someone who is perceived to be rich; you have lost your case. The police will not even take up the matter. That is not how it is supposed to be. The police are supposed to actually ensure that the poor, the down trodden are protected because the rich are able to protect themselves but the police are not doing that.

 

Mr Ngulube: But you are rich!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I know that in Kabwe you are rich and the law is always on your side.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I am making an earnest appeal to those who have been granted the power to provide services to our people to use that power prudently for the good of all of us. Please take note that you may be in those positions of authority now, in future, you will not be there. Evidence is abounding of those who were in those positions you are currently holding facing the wrath of the law. The same individuals you are using against others will be the same ones used against you.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Take note, just check the immediate history, former Ministers of Home Affairs are now crying out that the law is being abused but they are ones who were abusing the officers. They are the ones who were abusing the law but now they are suffering the fate of the institutions they created. We do not want to go that route.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have been challenged on a number of occasions pertaining to police brutality. We are being requested to provide evidence. Evidence on police brutality is in abundance. I will cite a few examples, at Woodlands Police Station, three members of the public were brutalised by the police…

 

Mr Nkombo: Broken legs!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … their legs broken and the video went viral. The Inspector-General of the Police made a public statement that he was going to investigate that particular case.

 

Mr Chibanda: He is still investigating.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: To date, we have not received any report pertaining to that brutalisation.

 

Mr Nkombo: Four years now.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: We have incidences that occurred in Shiwang’andu where one of the former leaders of this House, former Deputy Speaker, and the former First Lady were brutalised in Shiwang’andu. Their helipocter…

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwamba: Efyo bwaba ubufi!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Their helicopter was attacked, up to date, Madam Chairperson; we have not heard of any arrests...

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Ni stronghold, ilya!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: There are even video captions and those incidences of the helicopter being attacked were aired on television but nothing has happened to date.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, because of the comments that are coming, we had incidences in Mtendere Compound where our campaign bus was attacked and ...

 

Mr Nkombo: Smashed!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … smashed.

 

Mr Ngulube: That case is in court!

 

Mr Chibanda: What about Namwala?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, that case is not in court. The case that is in court is a petition, this is a criminal matter.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: The problem hon. Leader of the Opposition, the problem is that you are paying attention to running commentaries.

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Members, please let us reduce running commentaries.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Tutwa, Tutwa!

 

The First Chairperson: Order, hon. Members.

 

Hon. Mwiimbu, you may continue.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, as you earlier guided, I am one of the leaders in this House…

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … and I have to show by example on how…

 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … to debate.

 

The First Chairperson: And you are doing that very well.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I am trying to show an example because I do not want to raise other extraneous issues.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes!

 

Mr Nkombo: But Tutwa!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I was raising issues of criminality that have not been addressed or the culprits brought to court and these are issues are in public domain. It is for the good of all us that if somebody is involved in criminality, they must be brought to book thorough a thorough investigation. That is what we are looking for.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we have always been raising issues pertaining to the management of the Public Order Act. The way the Public Order Act is managed in this country is a recipe for anarchy and criminality. There is evidence of cadres of the ruling party demonstrating without due regard of the law and nothing happens. We have an example of …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended at 1255 hours until 1430 hours.

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

The First Chairperson: Again I am impressed hon. Members that we have made it this afternoon.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, before lunch break, I was lamenting pertaining to the failure by the police to take appropriate action against individuals who abuse our people and engage in criminality. I was also saying that we have a group of people in this country who are above the law and we are very concerned with this particular trend.

 

Madam Chairperson, we are aware that the Patriotic Front (PF) members have no regard for the law.

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Whenever they want to demonstrate …

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … they do not seek authority or notify the police pertaining to their demonstrations. They take the law in their own hands and behave with impunity. Impunity leads to impunity. If other members of the public see that the PF members are above the law, they will start taking the law in their own hands.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: We should not allow that to happen.

 

Madam Chairperson, I am speaking on behalf of the suffering policemen. We are all aware that the PF have been abusing the police and have ensured that the police service is under their arms. Currently, the police fear the PF cadres more than the authorities in this country.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Whenever you report a matter that involves a PF official, the policemen will not do anything.

 

Mr Livune: They will arrest you.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: They will tell you that actually the PF officials are above them and if they do anything, they will be disciplined. It is very sad.

 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, we live with these people. The officers of the police service are within our constituencies. We are the leaders and they confide in us as to why there is a breakdown of law and order. It is the lawlessness on the part of those who are supposed to be managing police affairs in this country.

 

Mrs Simukoko: Where is the evidence?

 

Mr Mwiimbu: I am being asked by Hon. Nonde to provide evidence and we have so much evidence.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: You have just come into this House. We have constituencies …

 

Interruptions

                                                     

The First Chairperson: Order! Order, on both sides!

 

 Hon. Mwiimbu, sit down.

 

Mr Mwiimbu resumed his seat.

 

The First Chairperson: Let me guide the House. There is only one Chairperson. We need order in the House. The person on the Floor is debating through the Chair. Hon. Mwiimbu, try not to get instructions from anybody else. Please, address the Chair.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I oblige and I would like to cherish your advice. I am saying that as elected leaders in our constituencies, the policemen report to us pertaining to the problems they have. It is our responsibility to come to this House and address those issues through you so that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs addresses them.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, I know I do not have enough time. I would like to now address …

 

Mrs Simukoko: On a point of order, Madam.

 

The First Chairperson: No point of order will be allowed.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … my debate to the vote pertaining to the correctional service. I sympathise that the correctional service may not have the resources to address all their needs in this country. However, I am appealing to the leadership in this particular correctional service to follow the law and respect the human rights of the remandees and inmates.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have noted with concern how the leaders of the correctional service have made separate laws for those who are perceived to be leaders of political parties and ordinary persons. The law does not discriminate. If there is a right for any visitation to be made, it cuts across the board. Political leaders also have the right to be visited. Permission should not be given by the Commissioner of Prisons for anyone to be visited. That is not correct.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, the inmates deserve the right to be visited like any other person. I have in mind what transpired in Kamfinsa where the Commissioner of Prisons had to intervene when our members were stopped to visit our remanded colleagues in prison. That is not correct …

 

Mr Nkombo: It is wrong.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: … and it is a violation of the rights of our colleagues and members.

 

Hon. Government Members: Order!

  Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this chance to contribute to the debate on the Floor of the House on the vote of the Ministry of Home Affairs and other related institutions.

 

Madam Chairperson, sometimes it saddens me because there is a notion that some of us are second class citizens in view of the manner things are being implemented. In 1964 when Zambia became independent, all institutions and the citizens belonged to Zambia. Today, there are some groups of people that are not favoured. They are not treated equally with other citizens of this country. As a result of this inequality, one may even feel that it is wrong to belong to a certain political party. We are forgetting one thing, which is that this country belongs to all of us. It is the Zambian people who agreed that there should be plural politics. However, despite that agreement, the Government turns against some people. You cannot feel the pinch if you are not on the other side. The one who feels the hunger is the one who has not eaten. Therefore, those in the ruling party cannot feel our pain. When are telling them how we feel about certain things, they want to dramatise everything. That is the sad part of this situation.

 

Madam Chairperson, you have a situation where two cases are reported to the Zambia Police Service. Of the two cases, one is reported by the Opposition while the other case is for the Patriotic Front (PF). Just see how the two cases will be handled. I always like to refer to Kalabo Constituency, ...

 

Hon. Government Member: Why?

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Chairperson, that is where I live. Let the police be neutral. The Ministry of Home Affairs should be for all Zambians. Like I keep saying, a day will come when things will change. Who knew that this country would be independent? This country was a British colony, but are we still under the British rule? No, we are not. Therefore, let us not point at others and label them as being in the Opposition.

 

Madam Chairperson, I have one or two simple things that I would like the police to observe. I have never been a police officer, and so, I do not know how it feels to go to a police training school. When people go to train as police officers, do they lose humility? It is very easy for them to make another person feel less human. At this point, this word that is being used by people comes into being. It comes into being when you dishonour human lives and do not respect life.

 

Hon. Members: What word?

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Chairperson, I believe that this institution was meant to protect human beings and Zambians for that matter. Imagine, hitting a person on the head with a shot button. I do not know how such people feel. Doing that to a fellow human being should not be pleasant.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Miyutu: Madam Chairperson, there is pluralism in this country, and it will never come to an end. Multi-partism will never come to an end. We are not only in it, but for it as well. Therefore, all those who hold the reins of power and have given themselves to offer a service should do so indiscriminately regardless of a person’s political inclination.

 

Madam Chairperson, the other issue I would like to talk about is the shortage of manpower in the investigative wing of the Zambia Police. There is need for officers in this wing to put in more effort to avoid inflicting pain unnecessarily. I say so because when the police investigative wing loses track, it makes many people suffer for no reason at all. I believe that when officers go to training school, they go there to get equipped with skills. Those skills that they acquire from that training is what should guide them execute their duties in a professional manner. If it is lack of resources, then there is need for the authority to allocate more resources to the investigating wing.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are times when the police have to follow up cases reported to them, but they are unable to do so because they do not have the means of going where to the crime scene or place where they need to carry our an investigation. The police vehicle has no fuel and tyres and it is on stones at the police station. Therefore, this police is just on paper. It cannot carry out its job. There is need for the investigative wings to be equipped all the time. We should not have situations where a person in need of a service from the police is the one being asked to go and look for fuel to enable the police go and carry out their investigation. In an event that a villager is the affected person, where would he or she get fuel from?

 

Madam Chairperson, there is need for investigative wings to be equipped. The police vehicles should go for servicing when they should. Fuel must also be provided to police officers at whatever level. The provincial level must recognise the district level so fuel must be supplied to the police stations.

 

Madam Chairperson, we have stations that do not have permanent resident police officers. For instance, in Kalabo, I have one in Lukona where officers go and stay for a while and then they exchange with their colleagues after some time. This area has land which can be used to for the construction of housing units for police officers. Land has already been secured. The only thing that is required is for the Government to take up its position. The area is prone to gun robberies. There are several people who have been robbed of their money and others have been victims of cattle rustling. Therefore, setting up a police post at Lukona would serve Lukona and Mongu. I am therefore, requesting for funds to be secured so that a police station can be put up.

 

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Home Affairs sent officers to go and conduct the mobile issuance of National Registration cards (NRCs). These officers were in Kalabo for three months. The officers who were deployed in the last phase of the exercise, which involved Luapula and the Copperbelt Province, have still not been paid, if I am not mistaken.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyutu: They have not been paid and they are requesting the Government to honour its obligation and service these allowances. Most of the officers do not belong to a union so they have no one to speak on their behalf. This is what is on the ground. According to the records, the officers in the last phase of the mobile issuance of NRCs exercise were not paid and there is need to pay them their dues.

 

Madam Chairperson, no one is supposed to use a phone whilst driving. The funny part is that you will find an officer in a road traffic patrol vehicle on the phone whilst driving.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Miyutu: This is someone who is supposed to be controlling traffic. He is supposed to be enforcing this law but he is the one on the phone whilst driving. It always confuses me and I always have to ask myself whether the vehicle is stationary on in motion.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Miyutu: My eyes and my conscience, however, tell me that it is moving. When someone holding a handset puts it on his or her ear, automatically, he or she is on the phone. Traffic officers need to stop doing this.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Miyutu: It shows that they are speaking on the phone whilst driving.

 

Mr Kasonso: They think that they are above the law!

 

Mr Miyutu: First and foremost, we are all Zambians. Secondly, police is for everyone. 

 

Madam Chairperson, there is respect in Kabwe.

 

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Yes!

 

Mr Miyutu: Also, there are old people in Kabwe as well.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Miyutu: This is the truth. So, when we are here we have to observe certain norms.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Miyutu: We are here to represent thousands of people that are elsewhere, just like the people of Kabwe.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Miyutu: In short, I hope that the hon. Minister will take into consideration some of the issues that we have complained about. I hope that those in power in the Zambia Police will change. If they do not want to change, it is up to them. They can stay that way.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Miyutu: A person only lives once. When life comes into the human body, it stays up to the day that it leaves your body and when it goes, it never comes back. The truth of the matter is that each person will only live once and not twice.

 

Mr Mubika: What about that word?

 

Mr Miyutu: That word was ‘brutal’.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: I will take two more debaters from the left; Hon. Professor Lungwangwa and Hon. S. Mulusa. Hon. Sing’ombe, you can debate the next Vote because we need to make progress.

 

Hon. Professor Lungwangwa, you have the Floor.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for the opportunity to debate the Vote for the Ministry of Home Affairs. This is a very important ministry that deals with our welfare as citizens of this country.

 

Madam Chairperson, many Governments in history that ended up totalitarian and tyrannical, underfunded the police and it became a brutal instrument for power. This is very clear from the way police have been funded in the recent past in different parts of Africa. Our own funding system for the police is extremely pathetic. I would like to highlight a few figures from the Yellow Book.

 

Madam Chairperson, one of the most important functions of the police is inspection. If you go through the figures, there is very little money going to station inspections of the police. For example, the Eastern Province was allocated K98,369 in 2016. In 2017, the same amount has been allocated.

 

The Luapula Province was allocated K123,725 in 2016. In 2017, it has been allocated K119,999. The North-Western Province was allocated K60,000 in 2016 and in 2017 it has been allocated K60,000. The Southern Province was allocated K90,000 in 2016 and it has not been allocated anything for 2017.

 

Mr Nkombo: Zero!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: The Muchinga Province was allocated K 160,000 in 2016 and in 2017 it has been allocated K176,000. The Copperbelt Province was allocated K202,800 in 2016 and K212,000 in 2017. The Central Province was allocated K 92,451 in 2016 and K102,000 in 2017. The Western Province was allocated K100,000 in 2016 and K78,809 in 2017.

 

Madam Chairperson, going by these figures, one of the most critical functions of the police, which is inspection and monitoring, cannot be carried out effectively and efficiently because they are incapacitated. As Hon. Miyutu said, the police are immobile. These are the indicators. We are underfunding the police, hence, the anger. This is most unfortunate because to a large extent it is deliberately being done by we who allocate these resources.

 

Another important function of the police is public relations. In the past, we had a very good television and radio programme entitled Police and You. We used to watch this programme in our homes. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs was probably still young.

 

Mr Livune: Question!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We used to watch and enjoy the programme and, in the process, learn a lot.

 

Mr Nkombo: Police and You. He was a baby!

 

Laughter

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: This programme informed the police and built bridges or rapports between the public and the police.  The police was appreciated. However, look at how much money we have given to the public relations aspect of the police.

 

Madam Chairperson, this year, the Public Awareness and Sensitisation budget line is K28,000 to round-off. This is the same amount that has been provided for next year. What can the police do with this amount for the whole country, in terms of building good rapport between the public and the police?

 

The allocation for the rehabilitation of water and sewer systems at headquarters was K1,031,238 for 2016. In 2017, the amount has remained unchanged. The Lilayi Police Training College has not been allocated anything in 2017 for water and sewer system rehabilitation.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

 

Prof Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, in other regions of the country, the allocation for water and sewer system rehabilitation in the police command is K100,000 and in other cases, K60,000.

 

Mr Nkombo: And in the Southern Province?

 

Prof Lungwangwa: Zero.

 

Mr Nkombo: The Southern Province has zero!

 

Laughter

 

Prof Lungwangwa: What can the police do?

 

Madam Chairperson, even rations for horses, whose provision was K190,000 in 2016 has gone down to K128,000 in 2017. Our horses are going to die.

 

Laughter

 

Prof Lungwangwa: The horses are going to die.

 

Madam Chairperson, the allocation for the training programmes like the Continuous Professional Development in the Zambia Police Service for this year is K72,000 while K30,000 has been allocated for next year. K68,400 was allocated in the 2016 Budget for the Long Term Training, while K56,000 is reserved for next year. What are we doing to the Zambia Police Service by underfunding it? By so doing, we are turning it into a brutal instrument for state power. This is exactly what tyrannical Governments have done …

 

Ms Lubezhi: Correct!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … in many parts of the world that have underfunded the police so that they become instruments of repression. There are many examples.

 

Madam, for HIV and AIDs Care, Support and Treatment, K8,175 has been allocated for this activity in the 2016 Budget, but there will be zero next year. Do we not have HIV/AIDs challenges in the Police Service? We have plenty of them. The Zambia Police Service and HIV/AIDs in particular has not been in the next year’s budget. What are we doing to the police?

 

Madam Chairperson, in the 2016 Budget, K150,000 was allocated for the Inspection, Monitoring and Evaluation at the ministry’s headquarters, but nothing has been proposed for next year. For the International Operations (Interpol) K265,181 was located for this year while K160,000 is being supposed for next year. We are talking about the role of the police in the region to enable them interact with other police commands in the region. The amount of money being proposed is insufficient considering the role that they have to play in the region.

 

Madam Chairperson, K419,803 was allocated in the 2016 Budget for Crime Detection while K300,000 is being allocated for next year. Clearly, all these figures indicate that we are not doing enough to establish a police command in which the public or citizenry will not be clumped. Instead, we are establishing a police command, which is highly demotivated in terms of doing its professionally work, opportunities for training and many other aspects. This is not right, hon. Minister. You should work very closely with the hon. Minister of Finance and begin to ask yourself what type of a police command we should create as a nation. We do not want a brutal police command, which will be there to brutalise us, especially hon. Members on the left. It must be a police command that is in accord with the type of society we are building. It must be a democratic society where there will be tolerance even in terms of the contestation of ideas for the governance of this country. The police must listen, attentive and appreciate and must create an environment which will allow any of us to perform our work and interact with our people in a peaceful environment. It is important to put the police reforms in place so that the police can be in line with our democratic environment. Do not use the police command as an instrument of force of suppression because it is not right.

 

Madam, these things and in politics in particular, we all come and go. You may be a minister of Home Affairs or a leader at that level, but tomorrow, you will not be there. Therefore, it is important to leave a legacy in which the police will appreciated the reforms you have put in place to build a society in which everyone will appreciate the work of the police.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: The vision you must have is not necessarily a quality police service, but that of regulars because it is not clear. It must be a vision centered on a police service that is publicly appreciated ay all of us. One thing that anybody who has in the position of leadership appreciates or comes to understand is that civil servants are civil servants when they are in positions, but you are out of power, they become evil servants.

 

 Laughter

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: They become evil servants and begin …

 

Madam First chairperson: Order!

 

The reference to civil servants as ‘evil servants’ is not allowed. Could Prof. Lungwangwa, withdraw that, please.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw that one.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam, all what I am saying is that it is important to leave a legacy that will enable all of us to appreciate the work of the police.

 

Madam Chairperson, the police must be appreciated by all of us. Please, ensure that they work professionally and at the service of all of us regardless of the political of the political parties that we belong to. They should be at the service of all of us.

 

Madam, the police should not in any way disgrace or imbalance the presidency. I am using the word ‘presidency’ because when a policeman or women is putting on the police uniform, that is the President. They are actually representing the Republican President.  In our country, we have a situation where, the police have become subservient to the cadres …

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … of the Patriotic Front (PF) ...

 

Mr Chitotela: Question!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … thereby indicating that the police have no power, but instead, the cadres have more power.

 

Madam, we have had incidences where, the police were seeing in the uniforms running away from cadres.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chitotela: Question!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: When the police are running away from the cadres, it means that it is the president who is running away from the cadres.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Chitotela: Question!

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We should not allow that. When the police are in uniform, they should give respect to the Office of the Republican President. We should not let the cadres take charge and assume too much power making the police irrelevant. That is unacceptable. These are the reforms that the hon. Minister should take into account. That is the kind of leadership we expect him to display in the interest of all of us. You have a very big responsibility to bring about fundamental reforms in the police service for us.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr S. Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate.

 

Madam, the Ministry of Home Affairs is the first ministry in this country in the sense that when we have people coming to Zambia, the first ministry they meet is the Ministry of Home Affairs at the airport.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr S. Mulusa: I, therefore, believe that every Zambian citizen is under the Ministry of Home Affairs.

 

HON. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr S. Mulusa: Madam Chairperson, I want to discuss the Immigration Department under the Ministry of Home Affairs.

 

Hon. Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

 

Mr S. Mulusa: Madam, the Immigration Department in the Ministry of Home Affairs is a big disappointment. I come from a mining town, Solwezi, where people and the youths are complaining that there are too many foreigners who have taken up our jobs and yet, Zambians do not have jobs because of corruption at the Immigration Department. We are allowing a lot of foreigners to take up our jobs.

 

Madam Chairperson, people on the Copperbelt are complaining about unemployment. There are thousands of Chinese and Malaysians employed in every project in this country, while the Zambian people remain without jobs.

 

  Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr S. Mulusa: There are even foreigners with Zambian documents working in many ministries. They have green National Registration Cards (NRCs) and Zambian passports.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Even here.

 

Mr S. Mulusa: Some of them were even buy those small books for Kaonde or Bemba, for instance, to try to learn our languages. The best we can do is to make sure that the Immigration Department has integrity. The people that should be employed there are supposed to represent the face of Zambia. We should not allow foreigners to take our jobs. Today, we even have Chinese roasting maize at Soweto Market. What are Zambians going to do?

 

Laughter

 

Mr S. Mulusa: So many foreigners are involved in poultry. They are taking over even the simplest of markets. That is very bad. I do not entirely blame the people working under the Immigration Department. We have to blame ourselves because the allocation under this department is nothing to talk about. So the corruption that we are talking about, we are also creating it as we approve this Budget because we are not giving public institutions enough money. How is an officer going to go into Kansanshi Mine or Mopani Mine to check who has the right credentials to work if he/she is properly equipped? They are failing because of underfunding.

 

So I support this budget, but next time it should be increased because the only way we are going to stop corruption is to make sure that public officers are fully equipped and mobile. I have seen an allocation of K1 million for motor vehicles under the Immigration Department. This amount is only enough for about two or three vehicles. So how is the Immigration Department going to cover the whole country with three vehicles? I do not think that is a correct budget line.

 

Madam Chairperson, another problem is that when we Zambians go to get a passport, we involve ourselves in too much corruption. For a passport that costs K320, you spend about K3,000 to get it because you want to beat time. What does that say about us? Therefore, we need to have a good system in place so that Zambians can easily get their passports and NRCs. Let us have a system where even our provincial centres must be giving out passports. That will make things easier.

 

Mr Ngulube: Awe! That will encourage corruption.

 

Mr S. Mulusa: Tutwa, it will make things easier if the provincial headquarters in Kabwe starts giving out passports than to allow everyone to come to Lusaka or go to Ndola. That is not helping the country.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Iyoyeve ni point.

 

Mr S. Mulusa: Madam Chairperson, in a way, our police service is traumatising Zambians. What I mean is that every time there is a simple call-out for Mulusa, for instance, to go to the police station, police officers will come with AK 47s and knives. The police come as if we are at war. We are not at war in this country. This is a civil country and we have peace. What we expect is that each time there is a call-out, only one or two officers can go and say, “Ba Kampyongo, you are wanted at the police station”.

 

It is as simple as that because what we know is that every Zambian is every obedient to our law. There is no need for the police to be moving with live ammunition. Why should police officers go in public armed with every tool, such as guns, knives and so on and so forth? Why should you be meeting your fellow Zambians like that? What will happen if a mob descends on such an officer? He/she will start shooting people and kill them. So, the system of moving with guns when dealing with civilians must stop.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr S. Mulusa: What is the purpose of the sjamboks that we see police officers with? Even if a mob was to turn violent, the police would use minimum force with a sjambok, unlike with an AK 47 loaded with live ammunition. That is uncalled for.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to talk about the prisons. Presently, what we have in Solwezi is not a prison. There are just walls with iron sheets on top. What are we doing about the infrastructure development for prisons? People in villages are arrested and detained for merely stealing a chicken or something like that. This is why we have congestion in our prisons. Prisoners are sleeping on each other and that is not good. I think the Ministry of Home Affairs, which has an able hon. Minister, my brother there, should make sure that we decongest the prisons.

 

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I support this Vote. I thank you.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Chairperson, allow me to support the budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs by stating that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has actually worked tirelessly to improve the lives of the police. We have seen the construction of police houses, which only happened after President Sata, may his soul rest in peace, took office.

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

 

Mr Ngulube: We have also seen the police now driving vehicles that they never thought they would drive because of the PF Government. We are also aware that our colleagues on your left have never been in power, but we know that they have a lot of ideas, which probably could better the lives of the police, but we want them to be very factual in advising the hon. Minister. We do not want a dramatic situation where people want to make allegations without any basis or evidence. We do agree in some instances that it is good to criticise the Government, but where the Government is doing well, let us learn to give it a pat on the back.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to also comment on the Immigration Department. We have had instances at the Immigration Department where certain elements appear to be more powerful than the law and think that whatever happens there should be in their hands or it is them to decide whether they should give you whatever you are looking for or not. We urge the hon. Minister to look at this and help our citizens as well as those foreigners that become powerless at the hands of these officers.

 

I am aware that it is very easy for a husband who is marrying a foreigner to get the necessary documentation, but in some instances, it is very difficult for our sisters who get married to foreigners to be recognised as spouses of foreign nationals. This is one area that has bred a lot of corruption. People have been told to go and bring a video to show that they indeed got married. In some instances, people have been asked to go and bring their relatives to the Immigration Department to come and confirm that indeed they are married to a foreigner. This is not a desirable situation.

 

 Madam Chairperson, allow me to also debate on the Zambia Police, the most loved service in this country.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngulube: All of us would want to throw stones at the police, but the moment thieves attack you, there is only one place you think of; the police station. We know that the Zambia Police might have challenges here and there in the manner they execute their duties, but I think they deserve our support. Yes indeed, the police have been accused of many things, but to state that they are being used by PF cadres would be a lie because Zambia Police officers have a chain of command.

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Ngulube, the word ‘lie’ is unparliamentary.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word ‘lie’ and replace it with ‘untrue’. Thank you for the guidance. We heard insinuations from hon. Member for Chirundu that PF cadres actually control the police. I do not know whether that would be possible in Zambia because the police in this country are very professional in the way they conduct their duties.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Ngulube: I am also aware that it is not easy for a person who does not belong to the Zambia Police Service to issue instructs to anybody. If that is happening in certain quarters, it is unfortunate. We do not condone such kind of activities and as PF, we condemn such to the greatest extent. We will not allow anybody in the name of the PF to bully the police. We are also aware of the watermelon scheme. There are United Party for National Development (UPND) cadres who are wearing T-shirts labelled dunana reverse and pretending to be PF. We will not allow that to continue happening.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to talk about the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC). I am aware that the DEC is doing a very commendable job and we must give it our support. In the past few years, the commission has performed extremely well. Under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, we have not heard that the DEC has been used to harass political opponents.  Before the PF came to power, the DEC used to used to sniff for offences. People used to be arrested and then acquitted and nothing happened. I urge the DEC to remain as professional as it is right now and give the people of Zambia the necessary services.

 

Madam Chairperson, let me come to the Zambia Correctional Service Commission. Allow me to thank the prisons command and the Ministry of Home Affairs for the professional services they are rendering. I am aware that the Zambia Correctional Service Commission’s headquarters used to be in my constituency, Kabwe Central Constituency. It has now been moved to Lusaka and now the people of Kabwe are complaining. Hon. Minister, please, bring back the Zambia Correctional Service Commission headquarters to Kabwe because the people of Kabwe were benefiting from it. As you might be aware, the farms and milling plants owned by the Zambia Correctional Service Commission, which are Kalonga, were beneficial to us. We also enjoyed seeing the hon. Minister of Home Affairs around Kabwe. Now that he has come to Lusaka, people are complaining. Even those who used to render small services to the Zambia Correctional Service Commission are now worried because they cannot do that any longer.  There will be nothing wrong with bringing back the Zambia Correctional Service Commission headquarters to Kabwe. People who own houses that used to be rented by senior prison officers are now crying because there is nobody to rent those houses. As you know, the economy of Kabwe depends so much on institutions like the Zambia Correctional Service Commission amongst others.

 

Madam Chairperson, I know that it is not easy to easy to implement most of the Government projects and policies. I am aware that the Ministry of Home Affairs is one of the biggest ministries. I wish to state that some of the sentiments that came from the left were very inflammatory and meant to paint a very bad picture of the Ministry of Home Affairs. I am alive to the fact that certain individuals or hon. Members did not give the correct reflection of what has been said in this House. For example, someone said that one person from Chimwemwe who participated in the last election should have been with us in this House. It is not true. It is not the correct position ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Ngulube, I have some discomfort with you reacting to the debates from the left because you may just contradict the hon. Minister’s position. Just debate the policy.

 

Mr Ngulube: Madam Chairperson, I am grateful for the guidance. I wish to state that one individual stood in Chimwemwe and lost. It is not true that he was arrested and not allowed to stand in the election. That is what I wanted to correct.

 

I always speak under five minutes. I support the budget and thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale (Chitambo): Madam Chairperson, I stand to debate as a novice. My debate will be centred on the Zambia Police Service and the Zambia Correctional Service Commission.

 

Madam Chairperson, when the Patriotic Front (PF) was in the Opposition, I recall very well that our late President used to feel very discomforted when he looked at the police man in this country. His ideas to change the plight of the policemen were thrown to the ruling Government then. Most of his ideas were utilised by the Zambia Police Service and things worked very well for this nation. Today, we have an Opposition which opposes anything that comes its way. When you ask the people in the Opposition for ideas, they do not offer any ideas, but all they know is to criticise and oppose.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale: Madam Chairperson, if there is a ministry or a service that is working and needs to be supported, it is the police service. Without the police service, we cannot enjoy the peace that we have today in this country.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale: During the last election, some people wanted to take the law in their hands, but the police prevailed over those who thought they were champions of violence.

 

Madam Chairperson, there are some leaders in this country who have a tendency of beating their wives, but because of the police service ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale: ... discipline has been inculcated in them and they now know that Gender based Violence (GBV) matters must not be tolerated in this country. The police service has done a commendable job from the inception of our governance. The kind of security it has offered is beyond the security offered in our neighbouring countries. Many times, our policemen have been taken to other countries to go and help maintain peace. Our police service always prevails on matters through a professional manner because it derives its powers from this House. One thing I have noted is that there are certain people from certain political parties in this country who normally attempt to abuse their rights.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale: ...  by provoking the police, and most of them are former hon. Members of Parliament. Some of them are leading some political parties, but you will find that they are in the forefront trying to abrogate the rules of this country. Our policemen are merely doing their duties and defending the Constitution of this country. There is no way that the police can sit and watch people do all sorts of wrongs and not do anything because those people are members of a certain political party and will condemn the police tomorrow. The police must do its work.

 

Madam Chairperson, in this country, you will observe that there are certain people who have formed groups that destabilise the peace of this country. These groupings are round vandalising public institutions as well as bringing down the most desired amenity to human life which is energy, leaving our Minister of Energy to always be at pains to explain what normally goes on in the dark. Therefore, our police are merely doing their work to curb these people from such offences so that we can have sanity and we can have a nation that is admired always.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me also to talk about the Zambia Correctional Service Commission which is also doing a commendable job. We have noted that under the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, there has been a lot of improvement in this area because they have partnered with Private Public Partnership (PPP) to ensure that we better these places.

 

Besides, when one is taken to these correctional centres, they should not blame anyone. They go there because of the wrongs they have done or they have abrogated the law and that is why they are found there. It is encouraging to note that what they are doing in these places now is to change the lifestyle of these offenders. This is a very good service they are providing and they must be commended for that.

 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale: Moreover, this Commission is also contributing a lot to the national basket. We should commend them for utilising labour which was supposed just to lay idle.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me also to take note that in this country if there is a time that every citizen is enjoying freedom, it is under the PF regime.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale: I remember very well that some time back, this same police service was known as a police force. It is the PF that have changed it to become a service.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale: And so, we must be commended for this.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Mutale: The only thing that certain people are not happy with is that they want to do wrong things and go away without being probed. The duties of the Zambia Police are very simple and this is to protect the Constitution which we, Members of Parliament here, enact. That is what they do. There is no way you will perceive a policeman to be an enemy of the community.

 

Madam Chairperson, with these few words …

 

Mr Ngulube: I thank you.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Mutale: … I want to end by saying that as a Member of Parliament, I am looking forward to seeing more changes in the police service, so that they can do their work especially those who want to break the law with impunity or who want to hold public rallies without any permit.

 

Madam, as I conclude, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate and support this budget.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up the debate on my Vote.

 

I would like to begin by appreciating and acknowledging all the sentiments which have been expressed by various Members on this very important ministry. I would also want assure you and the august House that as I stand here, I acknowledge and appreciate the responsibilities bestowed on my shoulders by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia and the people of Zambia. I am very much alive to the fact that I am on a tour of duty. When my tour of duty comes to end, I will move on. As I remain Minister in charge of Home Affairs, I will discharge my functions within the confinements of the law.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: I am equally alive to the fact that I was part of this Government which passed a very important piece of legislation which is the Abuse of Authority Bill, which also monitors how we discharge our functions. So, we are very much alive to this fact and the people of Zambia should know that I will be available to serve the nation without looking at regions or colours of people.

 

Madam Chairperson, allow me to just acknowledge and respond to a few concerns which were raised by hon. Members.

 

Hon. Dr Kalila spoke so passionately about the correctional services and indeed, I appreciate having worked with him in Kappa where we discussed matters concerning correctional services.

 

Indeed, we have had challenges and I did mention in my Policy Statement on the issue of overcrowding in these correctional facilities. We all know that we have left this issue unattended to for so many years.

 

Madam Chairperson, most of the facilities that stand today are extremely old. They were built during the colonial time. It is only this Government which has made practical steps in addressing the issues concerning the correctional services and overcrowding. I am glad to say that we are the first Government to ever open a new facility.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: We have not stopped there as I did mention in my Policy Statement, that we are putting up three more new facilities under a programme which my Colleague referred to, PPPs. This is meant to practically address this problem because offenders will always be there. Like someone said, everybody is a potential offender and so, we need to have these facilities attended to.

 

He also talked about the health care of our inmates. This Government once again, Madam Chairperson, has taken a practical step in addressing this challenge. In the last past three weeks, I had to open two new health facilities graded as mini hospitals, one in Livingstone and the other one in Chipata. These are hospitals meant to look at the health welfare of our inmates and officers.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: We are grateful to the Ministry of Health that has come on board in making sure that we equip these facilities.

 

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member also talked about the diet of inmates. We realise that we need to ensure these people need to have a proper diet and that is the reason why, for the first time in the history of this country, we have got a standing milling company in Kabwe. Kalonga Milling is producing mealie meal. It is the first time in the history Zambia that you will never hear about food shortages in correctional service facilities. So, this is how we work in this Government by attending to our people.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: We are looking at having the Penal Code revised so that some of the sentences that people are serving within the confinement of correctional services are served differently.

 

The issue of children found in correctional services is a great concern. We have open our doors to various partners to come on board and see how we can deal with the children that are either born in the correctional services or those that have gone with their mothers in the correctional service because their rights are of paramount to us.

 

Madam Chairperson, I also want to mention that we have established a full medical directorate where we are getting qualified personnel. We are getting qualified doctors and nurses to make sure that these facilities that we are opening are manned by professional medical personal who are able to deal with all the ailments are encountered by the people.

 

Madam Chairperson, There is, indeed, a distinction between remandees and convicts. However, for now, the facilities that we have are the same facilities that I am talking about and we doing everything possible to improve them.

 

Madam Chairperson, I responded to most of the issues raised by Hon. Syakalima, but I want to let him know that although hon. Members may have relatives in the Police Service or the correctional services, it is important that we do not get false information from them or deceive them. Only elected Governments have the responsibility to look after men and women in uniform. If we start deceiving them, they will become prone to indiscipline and when we discipline them it is hon. Members who come back and complain.

 

Madam Chairperson, on justice and the shooting of offenders, police officers work under extremely difficult conditions. The police have tried, against all odds, to be as professional as they can be. The police command, the prisons service chiefs and I do not shy away from acknowledging criticism where there are shortfalls. However, we want the people to offer constructive criticism. Demonising the police service is not a solution at all.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, as I have said before, there are people behind those uniforms ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: ... who have the same rights that we have. We should realise that we are dealing with our fellow human beings as we deal with them. Demonising them is not a solution. Let us be constructive in the way we offer criticism.

 

Madam Chairperson, there were also comments made on corruption. I have always said that when you point a finger, the other three fingers point back at you. The police do not go hunting for this perceived corruption. There are people that opt to move with defective vehicles knowing very well that when they get to the check points they will be the first ones kneeling down asking the police to take these bribes. I have been to these checks points and I have seen things for myself.

 

Mr Nkombo: Tell us that story again.

 

Mr Kampyongo: I do not want to go back to that story. You know it.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: The citizens need to also understand that if they follow the law they will have no issues with the police. I have never seen a police officer who goes to someone’s house and starts clobbering them. Where has this happened? I am asking this in response to Hon. Mwiimbu who said that they run away when they see the police. Only thieves do that. When you are thief ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: I withdraw that word, Madam. If you are a wrongdoer you will not like the uniform. The sight of a uniform can make you fall into a ditch. We have to appreciate that our men and women in uniform are also human beings.

 

Madam Chairperson, in a country where there is no law and order you are always dressed to run because anything can happen. However, here, because law and order is being maintained by our men and women in uniform, despite their low numbers, we are able to come here, go to constituencies, engage and even differ because that is how this country has always been. We should encourage our men and women to continue doing that which is right.

 

Madam Chairperson, my brother, Hon. Kabanda, talked about equipment. We are focusing on equipping our men and women in uniform. We want to equip our officers with modern equipment and I stated this in my policy statement. We are also making sure that forensic services are improved. There are cases that have remained unresolved for a long time because evidence may not be available at the time. We have had to send samples outside the country to be looked at and all that affects the dispensation of justice. We are doing everything possible to ensure we equip our officers.

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kabanda also talked about the pivots in the farms in our correctional services and that is an area in which we are making a drastic shift. We are looking at shifting from punitive incarceration to trying to make sure that we reform them. It should not be a challenge for those who are serving short sentences to be reintegrated into society because they would have been reformed and equipped with new skills.

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Mwiimbu talked about people losing faith in the police service. I have advised that we be constructive in the way we analyse these issues. He cannot say that people are taking the law into their own hands. He is my brother and is well versed on legal issues. He knows that we should not incite people to do the wrong things. The Police Public Complaints Authority is a product of this House which is exists to try and provide oversight over the police. Like I said, the police are human beings and there should be a mechanism to check and discipline those that make mistakes so that we can bring them in line. We are introducing the in-service programmes so that our people can enhance their skills.

 

Madam Chairperson, the insinuation that police officers receive instructions from cadres is not true. Not even I, as the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, has the right to give instruction to the police. It is not my role to micromanage the police. As I am standing here, people are committing crimes, are the police supposed to wait for me to tell them who to arrest? No! It is not practical. Crimes are committed all over the country. What kind of police service would wait for the hon. Minister to tell them which criminals to arrest? I do not micromanage the police, I only provide policy directives. The command is responsible for the day-to-day operations of the police. No cadre can come and commandeer a police officer to do anything.

 

Madam Chairperson, I mentioned that if there is a need to review the Public Order Act, the hon. Minister of Justice and I would look at it. However, we are waiting for submissions because for now that is the only law which manages the tension which exists between order and freedom. We need both order and freedom as a nation. Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa was talking about totalitarianism. A situation where there is only order and no freedom leads to a totalitarian state. Similarly, a state with all freedom and no order leads to anarchy. This piece of legislation manages the tension between the two. We need to have it, but how it should be managed is the collective responsibility of all of us here.

 

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Miyutu, on the issue of registration and issuance of National Registration Cards (NRCs), I do acknowledge that some of our officers who were involved in this exercise have still have arrears. This is appearing in the Budget and we are going to make sure that we clear them for the noble work they did.

 

Madam Chairperson, Professor Lungwangwa was concerned about the allocations that we have under this ministry. We would have loved to allocate a lot of money under this ministry but again, we have to do with the resources that are available. The hon. Minister of Finance was very categorical when he said that we need to cut an outfit according to the size of the cloth we have. We are unable to allocate a lot of funds in all these activities because we are constrained in terms of resources. I want to assure the hon. Members that important activities such as the HIV/AIDS programmes and many others are supplemented by other lines. We also have got a number of co-operating partners that are working with us to ensure that these programmes do not suffer.

 

Madam Chairperson, my two colleagues, Hon. Tutwa Ngulube and the Hon. H. S. Mulusa talked about foreigners taking up jobs in this country. We are working in collaboration with the Ministry of Labour and Social Services and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. We just had a meeting on the Copperbelt where we engaged all the mining houses. We have made it very clear that the work permits for foreign expatriates will only be given to those that will have expertise that is not available on the Zambian market. That is the way we are going to move. We are doing it systematically. We are going to involve all the stakeholders. In this exercise, we have to explain why we should bring in a foreign expert. In this case, we are also engaging all professional bodies such as engineers and doctors. We need to have them on board so that if someone is claiming to be an engineer, this professional body will be able to clear them. This body will be able to verify that the work that that person is offering is not on the Zambian market. After all that is done, that is when we can decide whether to give the work permits or not. We are very committed to ensure that we preserve the Zambian jobs. 

 

Madam Chairperson, let me also comment on the issue of spouse permits. Most of our people in Zambia have been taken advantage of. They have been involved in marriages of inconvenience, where people have just got …

Mr Nkombo: Convenience!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I mean marriages of convenience.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, this is where these foreigners have duped some of our ladies in this country so that they could get documentation to stay in this country. That is why we make people appear so that we can see them. We have seen ladies crying two months after the documents have been issued. They will say that the people they were involved with are crooks. So, we have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that indeed, they are getting into genuine marriages before we can issue out the documents. I therefore, want to appeal to our citizens to be vigilant.

 

Mr Nkombo: Who are they? Tell us.

 

The First Chairperson: Continue! Just take note of that.

 

Mr Kampyongo: I am talking about mischievous characters who want to dup us.

 

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I want to appeal to my dear brother, Hon. Syakalima not to take the Zambian people for granted. When …

 

Mr Syakalima: No, you cannot say that to me.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Syakalima, please, remain in your seat. Hon. Minister, you are doing very well and I know you are just about wind up. Please, do not refer to hon. Members. Refer to the debate. I think that path you are taking is going to flare the House. There will be a reaction from this side (left). Let us not go that way. Continue.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate that very much. I just want to say that when we debate as leaders, we should take into account our citizens out there. It is not appropriate to compare the exercise of forming the Government with that of going to a relief room.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: We are not being kind to our citizens.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

 Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, people elect leaders to come and oversee the affairs of the nation. We cannot trivialise that the level of someone going to a relief room.

 

Mr Lubinda: Tell Douglas!

 

Mr Kampyongo: The people of Zambia are very intelligent and they listen attentively.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Muchima, who is the former Deputy Minster under the Patriotic Front (PF) said that we have hired people on this side of this House. He has also been hired where he is (UPND).

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I want to tell him that we have presence everywhere and that we shall continue policing the nation even in the rural areas.

 

Madam Chairperson, to the police command, I want to urge them to take the debates that they have heard on the Floor of this House as an encouragement. They should do even better. As their hon. Minister, I have got no iota of doubt in my mind that they are equal to the task. To all my commanders, the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), Correctional Services Commission (CSC), Immigration Department, National Archives of Zambia and National Registration Card Department, as their minister,  I will stand with them to serve our nation much better.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

VOTE 11/01 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K269,671,627).

 

Mr Mutelo (Mitete): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4007, Activity 019, Settlement of Outstanding Bills – Uniforms – K500,000 and Activity 021, Settlement of Outstanding Bills – Commodities – K1,197,225. In 2016, there was an allocation of K5,024,197 on Settlement of Outstanding Bills – Uniforms. May I know why there was no allocation under Settlement on Outstanding Bills – Commodities in 2016?

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, did you get that question?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, yes. The hon. Member wants to know why we did not provide anything for the commodities. This means that those arrears were dismantled and we have got outstanding arrears …

 

The First Chairperson: No, hon. Minister. He said that for commodities, you have provided K1,197,225 for 2017 and there was no provision for 2016. 

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, thank you for that guidance.  The provision is meant to deal with arrears which were accrued in the previous fiscal year.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Dr Kalila: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 144, Programme 40 …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

We are not on page 144 yet.

 

Dr Kalila: Is that so?

 

The First Chairperson: No, we are not. We are dealing with Vote 11/01 – Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4003, Capacity Building ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, you have gone to Zambia Police Service Commission.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Oh! Sorry!

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 009 – Intelligence Gathering – K363,851.

 

The First Chairperson: Programme 4023 does not have Intelligence Gathering – K363,851. It has Activity 041- Purchase of Horse Accessories and Boxes – K12,000.

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 009 – Intelligence Gathering – K363,851.

 

The First Chairperson: Yes.

 

Mr Mutelo: Why is there a reduction in the allocation for Intelligence Gathering?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4023 – Activity 009 – Intelligence Gathering – K363,85, the reduction in the allocation has been due to the rationalisation of resources. The activity will be supplemented under Activity 016 under the same programme.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 005 – Crime Detection – K300,000. I have observed that in the year 2016, the Budget was K419,803. I would like to find out why there is this reduction.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Unit 02, Programme 4023, Activity 005 – Crime Detection – K300,000, the reduction is due to budgetary constraints.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Lihefu (Manyinga): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 010 – Maintenance of Motor Vehicles – Nil. In 2016, there was an allocation of K1,067,078. This was good because every vehicle needs maintenance. Why is there no allocation for 2017?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4035, Activity 010 – Maintenance of Motor Vehicles – Nil. This Activity will be undertaken at police garages hence its suspension. There is an allocation to this police garage which will cater for this activity.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 005  –  Crime Detection – K20,000. This figure has gone down when crime detection is one of the core businesses of the police. How then will the police manage to carry out this service?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4023, Activity 005–Crime Detection – K20,000. For the purpose of progress, hon. Members will note that some activities have had their allocations reduced. This is for the obvious reasons that were made clear by the hon. Minister of Finance. Therefore, we have rationalised by giving certain areas less resources. This is one of the activities whose allocation has been reduced, but will certainly be supplemented under other Budget lines.

 

I thank you.

 

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4026, Activity 005 – Specialised Treatment Abroad – Nil. This year, there was an allocation of K78,778, but nothing for 2017 when the men and women in uniform are still getting sick and need this service. Why is there no allocation?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4026, Activity 005 – Specialised Treatment Abroad – Nil.  This sum was required to meet the cost of providing medical care to police officers within Zambia. What we have done is that part of the money has been moved to Activity 003 – Medical Equipment – K141,270.  This has necessitated the reduction. It is meant to enhance local health service delivery.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, there is no provision. It is not a reduction. That is the question.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, it has been shifted to support under the same programme Activity 003 – Medical Equipment – K141,270. It is meant to capacitate our local health facilities.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4103, Activity 003 – Recruit Training – K794, 131. There is a drastic reduction for next year. Can the hon. Minister tell us where the complimentary funds are hiding for this particular activity, going by what he had stated earlier?

 

Mr Kampyongo laughed.

 

Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4103, Activity 003 – Recruit Training – K794, 131, the reduction is not hiding anywhere. We are still negotiating to try and see how the Ministry of Finance will come on board. We are also revising our training programmes. So, depending on revision of the training programmes for both the new recruitments and the in-service training programmes, our hon. Minister of Finance has made an indication that he will see how he can supplement these very important programmes under the Police Service.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 11/02 – (Zambia Police –Ministry of Home affairs – Protective Unit – K66,708,583).

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K60,092,959, why the increase?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K60,092,959, the increase is meant to cater for salaries of newly-graduated officers in this category.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

 

Vote 11/03 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Lilayi Police Training School – K46,219,421).

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 049 – Rehabilitation of Water and Sewerage – Nil, where is the money hiding?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4012, Activity 049 – Rehabilitation of Water and Sewerage – Nil, the money is not hiding anywhere. This activity has been completed this year, hence the suspension of this allocation.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Procurement of Food Rations – Nil, why is there no budget line?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Procurement of Food Rations – Nil, this activity has been suspended due to the rationalisation of funds but rations will certainly be procured under Headquarters.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister is saying that the programme has been suspended, may I know then what is on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Procurement of Foods Rations – Kennel – K100,000?

 

Ms Kapata: Where?

 

Mr Sing’ombe: The last activity on the same page. There is a K100,000 that has been allocated.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, kennels are for dog management.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

 

Vote 11/02 – (Zambia Police –Ministry of Home affairs – Protective Unit – K66,708,583).

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K60,092,959, why the increase?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K60,092,959, the increase is meant to cater for salaries of newly-graduated officers in this category.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

 

Vote 11/03 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Lilayi Police Training School – K46,219,421).

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 049 – Rehabilitation of Water and Sewerage – Nil, where is the money hiding?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4012, Activity 049 – Rehabilitation of Water and Sewerage – Nil, the money is not hiding anywhere. This activity has been completed this year, hence the suspension of this allocation.

 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Procurement of Food Rations – Nil, why is there no budget line?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Procurement of Food Rations – Nil, this activity has been suspended due to the rationalisation of funds but rations will certainly be procured under Headquarters.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister is saying that the programme has been suspended, may I know then what is on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Procurement of Foods Rations – Kennel – K100,000?

 

Ms Kapata: Where?

 

Mr Sing’ombe: The last activity on the same page. There is a K100,000 that has been allocated.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, kennels are for dog management.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I stated that, ideally, we would have known the number of officers we were going to recruit in the next fiscal year. That number then determines how much goes to the rations, uniforms and other costs. However, due to the budget constraints, the hon. Minister of Finance has committed himself and will work out something to ensure that we carry out the recruitment.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Outside the Budget.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Not outside the Budget. There is a contingency provision.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Kampyongo: Listen!

 

Madam Chairperson, I want to be very clear. I stated in my policy statement that ideally we are supposed to be recruiting 3,000 police officers every year, but the hon. Minister of Finance indicated that the budget allocations will be cut. However, we went to talk to him and he said that within his contingency plans, he will come up with the number of officers we are going to recruit and that is why that amount was allocated to that activity.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. UPND Members called for a division.

 

The First Chairperson consulted the Clerks at the Table. 

 

Ms Lubezhi: On a point of procedure, Madam.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Lubezhi, please, sit down.

 

Ms Lubezhi resumed her seat.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, clearly, we all know our procedures. Since a division was called, more than five minutes have passed. Could you guide on how we will proceed …

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Nkombo, please, sit down.

Hon. Nkombo resumed his seat.

 

The First Chairperson: The Chair is allowed to consult and that is what I was doing. You called for a division and the bells will now be rang.

 

Question that Vote 11/03 –Ministry of Home Affairs – Lilayi Police Training College - K46,219, 421 be amended put and the House voted.

 

Ayes (79)

 

Mr C. R. Banda

Mr Chabi

Mr Chali

Ms Chalikosa

Mr Chama

Mr Chansa

Mr Chibanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chiteme

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chiyalika

Mr Chungu

Mr Daka

Mrs Fundanga

Mr Jamba

Mrs G. Jere

Mr Kabamba

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kalobo

Ms K. Mulenga

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kapata

Mr Kapita

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Ms Katuta

Mr Kaziya

Mr Lubinda

Prof Luo

Mr Lusambo

Mr Mabumba

Mr B. Malama

Mr Malanji

Mr Mawere

Mr Mecha

Mr Miti

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukosa

Mr Mulenga

Mr D. Mumba

Mr A. Mumba

Mr Mundubile

Mr Munkonge

Mr Mushanga

Mr Mushimba

Mr Musonda

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Mwale

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Ms D. Mwape

Mr Mwewa

Mr Ng`ambi

Mr Ng`onga

Mr Ngulube

Mr Nkhuwa

Ms E. Phiri

Ms O. M. Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Siwale

Ms Subulwa

Rev Sumaili

Mr Tembo

Mr N. Tembo

Dr Wanchinga

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr M. Zulu

Mr C. Zulu

 

Noes (44)

 

Mr Belemu

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chikote

Mrs Chinyama

Ms Chisangano

Mr Fungulwe

Dr Imakando

Mr Jere

Dr Kalila

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kasonso

Mr Kintu

Ms Kucheka

Mr Kufakwandi

Mr Kundoti

Mr Lihefu

Mr Livune

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lumayi

Prof Lungwangwa

Mr Machila

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mubika

Mr Mulusa

Ms Mulyata

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo

Ms Mwashingwele

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiinga

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ndalamei

Mr Nkombo

Mr Samakayi

Evangelist Shabula

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sing'ombe

Mr Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

 

Question accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote 11/03, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11/04 – (Zambia Police - Ministry of Home Affairs - State House Police – K49,765,059)

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4035, Activity 002 – Motor Vehicle Maintenance and Running Costs – K120,483. Why has this allocation not been increased in the 2017 Budget?

 

Interruptions

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Members, we have a huge backlog of Votes to deal with. So, there is no need to interrupt when the debate is flowing.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4035, Activity 002 – Motor Vehicle Maintenance and Running Costs – K120,483, the allocation has not been increased because we are working within the available resources. However, we would have loved to increase the allocation.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4044, Activity 004 – Procurement of Food Rations – Kennels – K110,241. I see that in the 2016 Budget, the ministry allocated K247,789 for the dog kennels. In the 2017 Budget, the ministry has allocated K110,241. Does it mean that the dogs have reduced or they will now be given less food.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, we appreciate our colleagues’ concerns. However, we have to make progress.

 

Interruptions

 

Hon. UPND Members: But there are dogs there.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I just stated that we are doing what we can within the available resources.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11/05 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Mobile Unit – K94,015,492).

 

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K231,806.

 

The hon. Minister of Home Affairs lamented about the low funding to his ministry in 2017 and yet this budget line has astronomically increased from K36,000 in 2016 to K231,806 in 2017. How has he been able to do this amidst the challenges in his ministry? What peculiar activities is the ministry anticipating next year unlike this year?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member for Kafue, who is a former controlling officer, knows that even when there are constraints, allocations to some key areas will be higher than other areas. So, Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K231,806 is meant to procure office materials for the Mobile Unit headquarters. The amount is also meant to cater for increased rations in the unit.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 049 – Inspection of Platoons – K24,000. In 2016, this budget line was K120,000. Inspection of platoons is very important. Can the hon. Minister justify why there has been such a huge reduction to a very important activity under the Mobile Unit?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, we would have loved to maintain the figure of K120,000 or even increase it. However, we had to rationalise some funds, just like on the other budget lines. What I said concerning the other budget lines applies to Programme 4013, Activity 049 – Inspection of Platoons – K24,000.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Votes 11/05, 11/06 and 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11/08 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Airport Division – K28,490,379).

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K112,298. I would like to find out what sort of airport activities will require maintenance of public order because the airport is a transit place where people just land then go home.

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central for his concern. The airport is a public place and anything can happen if people come in huge numbers. So, we have to anticipate anything and we have to be prepared for eventualities.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Livune: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K1,773,252, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K25,368,217, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K140,026. All of these divisions have been reduced in 2017. Is it because the number of staff has reduced or have the emoluments been reduced? Can the hon. Minister explain what this picture entails?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, what this picture entails is that the budgeting is based on actual field positions as opposed to structure.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

The First Chairperson: Hon. Mwiinga, you may seek your clarification.

 

Mr Mwiinga (Chikankata): Madam Chairperson, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

 Votes 11/08 and 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11/10 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Copperbelt Province – K141,973,954).

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 049 – Rehabilitation of Water and Sewer Systems – Nil.

 

Madam, if you recall, Hon. Professor Lungwangwa lamented about the lack of provision for water and sewer systems on the Copperbelt. This year, there is a figure of K2,417,000 and, for next year, there is nothing. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why there is no provision for the Copperbelt Province under this activity? 

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, this provision was meant for works to be done under the 2016 Fiscal Year. The works have since been done and completed.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Livune: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 036 – Station Imprest – K266,781.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the reduction is due the available resources we have had to rationalise.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Vote 11/10 and Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11/12 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Northern Province – K30,815,313).

 

Mr Lihefu: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K23,385,394.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the allocation is meant to cater for officers in Division II and the decrease is due the budgeting based on the actual positions filed as opposed to this year’s allocation which was based on the structure.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Nanjuwa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023 …

 

Madam First Chairperson: Order!

 

We have passed page 108.

 

Mr Miyanda: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K420,000. 

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the increase is based on the projected increase in the number of planned operations in the province.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K420,000.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, at the expense of repeating myself to the hon. Member who is a former controlling officer, I have stated that the increase in this particular province is due to the projected increase number of operations and different nature, if I add, but I cannot go into the details of the operations.

 

Hon. UPND Members called for a division.

 

Question that Vote 11/12 − Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Northern Province – K30,815,313 be ordered to stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

 

Ayes – (79)

 

Mr W. Banda

Mr Chabi

Mr Chali

Ms Chalikosa

Mr Chama

Mr Chansa

Mr Chibanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chiteme

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chiyalika

Mr Chungu

Mr Daka

Mrs Fundanga

Mr Jamba

Mrs Jere

Mr Kabamba

Ms Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kalobo

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kapata

Mr Kapita

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Ms Katuta

Mr Kaziya

Mr Lubinda

Prof. Luo

Mr Lusambo

Mr Mabumba

Mr Malama

Mr Malanji

Mr Mawere

Mr Mecha

Mr Miti

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukosa

Mr Mulenga

Ms Mulenga

Mr A. C. Mumba

Mr D. Mumba

Mr Mundubile

Mr Munkonge

Mr Mushanga

Mr Mushimba

Mr Musonda

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Mwale

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Mrs Mwansa

Princess Mwape

Mr Mwewa

Mr Ng’ambi

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Ngulube

Mr Nkhuwa

Ms O. M. Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Siwale

Ms Subulwa

Rev. Sumaili

Mr L. N. Tembo

Mr S. Tembo

Dr Wanchinga

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba

Mr C. M. Zulu

Mr M. Zulu

 

Noes − (45)

 

Mr Belemu

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chikote

Ms Chisangano

Ms Chonya

Mr Fungulwe

Dr Imakando

Mr Jere

Dr Kalila

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kasonso

Mr Kintu

Princess Kucheka

Mr Kufakwandi

Mr Kundoti

Mr Lihefu

Mr Livune

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lumayi

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mr Machila

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mubika

Mr S. Mulusa

Ms Mulyata

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo

Ms Mwashingwele

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiinga

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ndalamei

Mr Nkombo

Mr Samakayi

Evangelist Shabula

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sing’ombe

Gen. Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

 

Question accordingly agreed to.

 

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11/13 − (Zambia Police −Ministry of Home Affairs – Western Province – K43,548,998).

 

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 036 – Station Imprest – K78,809. For 2016, K200,000 was provided for this activity but only K78,809 has been provided for next year. In view of what was reported a few weeks ago about the rise in crime activities in the Western Province, especially cattle rustling in Liuwa, why has the amount for such an important activity been reduced?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I want to say that I stated last time that maneuvers to derail this process will not help. We shall move on and make sure that we approve this budget.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Minister, just answer the question, please.

 

Mr Kampyongo: The response to the hon. Member for Liuwa’s question is that just as we reacted to that incident he reported, regardless of the reduction in this budget line, we shall make sure that we continue policing his area effectively, just as we are doing now.

 

I thank you, madam.

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have an explanation on Programme 4031, Activity 016 – Marine Patrols – K90,742. In 2016, K120,000 was allocated for this activity, but only K90,742 allocated in 2017. Why has the amount for marine patrols in the Western Province reduced?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, like I have said, the reduction is due to budgetary constraints, but we shall make sure that the patrols are done effectively.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Nanjuwa (Mumbwa): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 036 – Station Imprest – K78,809. I have observed that there is so much reduction in the allocation for station imprest.

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

That question was asked by Hon. Dr Musokotwane exactly the same way you are asking it and the response was given.

 

Mr Nanjuwa: Madam Chairperson, I have not yet asked the question.

 

Laughter

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: Go ahead and ask then.

 

Mr Nanjuwa: I have observed this reduction in all the provinces. Can the hon. Minister assure this House that there will be a provision from the contingency funds because what I have observed is that this reduction is going to affect the operations of police stations.

 

The First Chairperson: The question is that you want the hon. Minister to assure you that there will be a provision from contingencies? He cannot give you that assurance. He is not the hon. Minister of Finance.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I seek clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K400,000. Just now, the hon. Minister indicated that the reduction on the allocation for marine patrols as well as the one Dr Musokotwane asked about was as a result of budgetary constraints. I have seen a preponderance of hiking allocations to do with the Public Order Act. In this particular case, the allocation has increased by 59 per cent for the Western Province, in a year of austerity measures. In the case of the Northern Province, the hon. Minister was …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Hon. Nkombo, what is the question on this particular Vote?

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, my question is on all fours with what I am stating. For operations, the hon. Minister said that is why there is this particular provision. I have noted that there is a hike in this budget line. When we are in an austerity year, the allocations for operations seem to be going up. I would like the hon. Minister to favour me by telling me, because I am supposed to be approving the budget for his ministry, what these operations are considering that we from this side think that operations include buying teargas and short batons to beat people. Why is this preponderance of an increase of up to 69 per cent for the allocation for public order in all the provinces?

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, simply answer the question why there is an increase.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, at the expense of repeating myself, this is due to planned operations. Yes indeed, teargas and all other items police buy is meant to deal with wrongdoers who break the law.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member should not be worried. There is no preponderance of increasing funds to do with public order, but we have to maintain law and order and operations vary. As you heard, the hon. Member for Liuwa was just expressing concerns on crime. These are some of the funds that will go to deal with the concerns that he has in Liuwa.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Miyutu:  Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 036 – Station Imprest – K78,809. I assume that the police in the Western Province is like any other police in this country. We have ten provinces. Out of the ten provinces, it is only the Western Province where the allocation for crime detection and prevention is less than K100,000. What explanation is there for this?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, there are reductions in some activities and increases in others such as the Public Order Maintenance. This simply means that this is needy area where we know that these resources will be used appropriately and effectively.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K120,000. The allocation for this activity has been reduced from K188,494 in 2016 to K120,000 in 2017, which is a reduction of K68,494 for office operations in that province. Can the hon. Minister explain that?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the reduction is because we are rationalising the funds.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 11/13, Vote 11/14 and Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11/16 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – North-Western Province – K26,638,549).

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K2,686,018 and Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K21,881,341. There are reductions in the allocations to these Votes. Is this as a result of some officers being retired in national interest?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: Ms Chonya, you know that that the hon. Minister cannot answer that. What is the question? Is the question simply that there has been a reduction and you want to know why?

 

Ms Chonya: Yes!

 

The First Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Home Affairs may answer the question.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I am constrained to repeat myself because the hon. Member is a former controlling officer who should be very conversant ...

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I mentioned that we are budgeting based on the positions filled as opposed to the structures as it was in the fiscal year for 2016.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Lihefu: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 036 – Station Imprest – K243,119. In 2016, the allocation to this activity was K373,657. Why has there been a reduction when prices of stationery have gone up?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I want to correct the impression that this imprest is meant to buy stationery. This imprest is for operations and so the reduction is as a result of budgetary constraints and the limited resources we have to deal with.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 11/17 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Southern Province – K61,303,431).

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance – K550,000. I have observed that the province has got an 83 per cent increment on this activity and it is the highest amount allocated to this activity among all the provinces. One time, I lamented about an incident where a police man beat up a fellow police in Choma. One of the police recruits who were sent to Choma ended up beating up a Mr Maliba, a police officer ...

 

The First Chairperson: What is your question, Hon. Nkombo?

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I said that the Government should take some of the police men from the Southern Province to Muchinga or Kanchibiya where there are no policemen. Does the hon. Minister not think that the number of policemen in our province is very high and that is why the amount allocated to this activity has been hiked? Does the hike in the amount allocated to this activity mean that the province is a troublesome province?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, as a ministry, we are looking at staffing all the provinces. We have got the responsibility to maintain law and order and ensure that all the provinces are peaceful and the Southern Province is no exception. We are there to do the normal operations that we have to do. I do not have to be dragged into the debate of whether crime is higher in the Southern Province than in other provinces. Our work in the Southern Province is very well known to the hon. Member.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Hon. Member: Population naikula!

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 028 – Station Inspection – Nil. I have noticed that out of the ten provinces, it is only Southern Province that has not been allocated money for Station Inspection. Why is that so?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, we have rationalised the funds and we have focused allocation of resource in the main area, just like the one Hon. Nkombo was asking about.

 

Mr Nkombo: Ah!

 

Laughter

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on the same Activity 028. Southern Province is the only province not allocated money for Station Inspections and the Minister is justifying it as part of rationalisation. Can we hear how rationalisation came about? Why the entire province has not been allocated money for station inspections?

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: Prof. Lungwangwa, he has already answered that question. Do you want him to repeat himself?

 

Hon. Opposition Members: Repeat yourself!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I have repeated myself so many times and I think you have responded to that.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, on the same question, does it mean that there will be no station inspections in Southern Province?

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, will the activity still continue to take place?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, when we say operations it varies. The station inspections will be conducted.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Sing’ombe: How? Which operations?

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, I really sympathise with the eloquent Minister but we have to keep asking because this is the guidance you gave us. So, may I have clarification on Programme 4023, Activity 036 – Station Imprest – K176,909, why there has been a reduction in Station Imprest from K327,441 to K176,000.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I think I have made myself sufficiently clear that in rationalising the funds, we are putting allocations in key areas. That is why there is a reduction on this activity.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Livune: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 028 – – Station Inspections – Nil. The principle of accounts must be standard. If this activity will take place, may I know where the funds will come from because they are not budgeted for under this Vote?

 

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, you need to give a clear answer. Although there is no allocation, you have indicated that the activity will continue to take place. How will you finance it?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, it will be financed like I stated from Programme 4031 – Internal and External Operations, Activity 043 – Public Order Maintenance.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The Chairperson: I will have Mr Jere and Mr Mwiinga. Mr Miyanda please sit down.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hajere!

 

Mr Jere: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, page 115, …

 

The Chairperson: No, we are on page 114.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hajere!

 

Mr Mwiinga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K52,602,258, I have noted that just for Southern Province, there has been an increase yet in most of these other provinces the figures have been reducing but in the case of Southern Province, the figures are increasing. May I know why?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I would urge the hon. Member to look through the lines and be truthful. This particular activity is to cater to officers in Division II. The increase is simply to cater for newly graduated officers who have been assigned to Southern Province.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

 

Question that Vote 11/17 – Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Southern Province – K61,303,431 be ordered to stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

 

Ayes – (84)

 

Mr C. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr Chabi

Mr Chali

Mr Chalikosa

Mr Chama

Mr Chansa

Mr Chibanda

Mr Chilangwa

Mr Chilufya

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chiteme

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chiyalika

Mr Chungu

Mr Daka

Mrs Fundanga

Mr Hamukale

Mr Jamba

Mrs G. Jere

Mrs Kabanshi

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kalobo

Mr Kampyongo

Ms Kapata

Mr Kapita

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Ms Katuta

Mr Kaziya

Mr Lubinda

Prof. Luo

Mr Lusambo

Mr Mabumba

Mr A. Malama

Amb. Malanji

Mr Mawere

Mr Mecha

Mr S. Miti

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukosa

Ms K. Mulenga

Mr E. Mulenga

Mr D. Mumba

Mr A. Mumba

Mr Mundubile

Mr Munkonge

Mr Mushanga

Mr Mushimba

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Mwale

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Princess Mwape

Mr Mwewa

Mr Mwila

Mr Ng’ambi

Mr Ng’onga

Mr Ngulube

Mr Nkhuwa

Ms E. Phiri

Ms. O. Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Siwale

Mr Siwanzi

Ms Subulwa

Rev. Sumaili

Mr S. Tembo

Mr M. Tembo

Mr L. Tembo

Dr Wanchinga

Mrs Wina

Mr Yaluma

Mr Zimba Chasefu

Mr M. Zulu

Mr C. Zulu

 

Noes – ( 45)

 

Mr Belemu

Mr Bulaya

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chikote

Ms Chisangano

Ms Chonya

Mr Fungulwe

Dr Imakando

Mr M. Jere

Dr Kalila

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Mr Kasonso

Mr Kintu

Ms Kucheka

Ms Kufakwandi

Mr Kundoti

Mr Lihefu

Mr Livune

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lumayi

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mr Machila

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Miyutu

Mr Mubika

Mr S. Mulusa

Ms Mulyata

Dr Musokotwane

Mr Mutelo

Ms Mwashingwele

Mr Mwene Mangango

Mr Mwiinga

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Ndalamei

Mr Nkombo

Mr Samakayi

Mr Shabula

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sing'ombe

Mr Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

 

Abstentions – 1

 

Mr Mutaba

 

Question accordingly agreed to.

 

VOTE 11/18 (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Muchinga Province – K17,528,950).

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K14,133,194. There is a reduction from this year’s allocation. Why have they not sent officers to Muchinga Province? The increase in the allocation for the Southern Province was due to the officers they have sent there.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

The First Chairperson: I will not allow the hon. Minister to answer that.

 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K14,133,194. In 2016 there was an allocation of K20,714,461 while the allocation for next year is only K14,133,194. What is the reason for this reduction?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4000, Activity 002 – Salaries Division II – K14,133,194, the reduction is due to fact that we have just budgeted on the field positions as opposed to the structure.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Lihefu: Madam Chairperson, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

Mr Fungulwe (Lufwanyama): Madam Chairperson, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

Vote 11/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/01 (Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K76,159,458).

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4005 Activity 032 – Establishment of Centre Against Terrorism – K2,513,912. Could the hon. Minister explain what that is.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4005 Activity 032 – Establishment of Centre Against Terrorism – K2,513,912, I indicated that we are introducing a new two-year department and this is one of the new units which is meant to deal with new security threats.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 011 – HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment – K8,562,000. Why is there such a huge amount of money when condoms and ARVs are free?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4008, Activity 011 – HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment – K8,562,000, the hon. Member knows that HIV/AIDS related programmes are centred on more than condoms and ARVS. There are a number of other programmes such as sensitisation. We are dealing with headquarters which caters for a number of departments.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4006, Activity 008, Subscription to International and Local Organisations – K91,000. In 2016, there was a K100,000. Does it mean that the subscription fee to these international and local organisations has been reduced?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, there is a reduction indeed, but that does not mean that the subscription fee has reduced. We just have to do with the resources that are available and we are going to make sure we only subscribe to those organisations that matter most.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Chaatila (Moomba): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 011, HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment (1) – K8,562,000. I note that in the ministries that we have tackled so far, there has been a reduction on the allocations to HIV/AIDS related activities. Why do we have this increment in this particular item? Does it mean that on the Ministry of Home Affairs is affected by HIV/AIDS?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I want to urge my colleagues that we are all leaders here. Therefore, when we are discussing these matters, we should attach importance. I find it difficult to say that this is the only ministry that is affected. We all know that this pandemic has affected all the institutions.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Ms Mulenga: He is a joker!

 

Mr Kufakwandi: Madam Chairperson, I seek …

 

Mr Ngulube: My death!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kufakwandi: … clarification on Programme 4024, Activity 008, Prison Farms Expansion – K3,096,634. Under austerity measures, one would expect that productive areas like the prison farms would be supported more supported so that they can generate more revenue for the Government. Why in this particular case has the allocation been reduced?

 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate the concern of Hon. Kufakwandi. Indeed, we appreciate that production is one of the key areas we are supposed to be focusing on. He may also note that we have done a lot of progress. We have procured a centre pivot and a number of other equipment. In as much as we would have loved to increase the allocation, unfortunately, we had to deal with the resources that are available to us.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4066, Activity 008, Processing of Disciplinary Cases – K25,500. In 2016, the allocation was K30,000. Why do we have this decrease?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, that is an allocation which is allocated to deal with disciplinary cases. Indeed, we would have increased it but due to the budgetary constraints, that is why we have this reduction.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4005, Activity 031,  DNA Laboratory – K2,874,000. Did the construction of this laboratory commence in 2016 before we approved the money for 2017?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, indeed, the increase is due to the number of equipment that has been procured in order to operationalise this laboratory.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Mwiinga: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4005, Activity 032,  Establishment of Centre Against Terrorism – K2,513,912.  In 2016, we had K588,000 and ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

The hon. Minister already answered that question. He said that his is a new activity. I think you were not in the House.

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 012, Office Administration (Procurement) – K111,261 and Activity 018, Preparation of Procurement Plan – K79,444. What is this procurement plan which has got a figure closer to what is going be procured?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the two programmes are different as the hon. Member can see. There is Office Administration (Procurement) and Preparation of Procurement Plan and these are two different activities all together.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4066, Activity 010, Restructuring Logistics – K180,500. In 2016, there was K200,000. We are aware that the ministry has been restructuring and retiring people in national interests.

 

Mr Mwiimbu: And on tribal lines.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, is this not the function of the Public Service Management Division (PSMD), which the ministry should use to restructure and also, to dismiss those who the minister and his management have dismissed lately on national interests?

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, can you just explain this activity.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, indeed, the ministry has been going under restructuring. The hon. Member has partially answered his question. If he is talking about retiring or hiring people, that is indeed, the role of the PSMD.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 011, HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment (1) – K8,562,000. I want to refer to the initial question I asked. For example, under the Ministry of …

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

There is no time for examples. Just ask a direct question.

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Chairperson, HIV/AIDS is a serious pandemic that is a challenge in Zambia. Under the Vice-President’s Office, this line is not provided for and yet there are employees. Under Home Affairs, we have this huge figure and the hon. Minister is watering down my question. Why are other ministries blank on this challenge?

 

The First Chairperson: The hon. Minister cannot answer for other ministries. He is responsible for the Ministry of Home Affairs. So, ask a question to him as hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

 

15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/02 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Zambia Correctional Services – K223,513,935).

 

The First Chairperson: We have to make progress. I will only allow three clarifications, Mr Fungulwe, Ms Chonya and Mr Mutelo.

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002 – Activity 016 – Pass out Parade – Nil. Does this mean that no one will pass out next year?

 

Mr Ngulube: They will pass away!

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4002 – Activity 016 – Pass out Parade – Nil, goes back to the explanation I gave earlier on recruitments. The allocation for this year was meant for the recruitments, training and pass-outs that were done. The other explanation is what I gave earlier on.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 077 – HIV/AIDS and Wellness – K180,000. Before that, we just passed the previous head where we had HIV/AIDS Awareness and Supplements and then we had HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment to the amount of K8,000,562. I was wondering how this ministry is reconciling all this together, especially on the aspect of treatment. Are they now going to be doing what the Ministry of Health is supposed to be doing?

 

Mr Ngulube: Question!

 

The First Chairperson: Ms Chonya, we are dealing with Correctional Service. Is the question that there is a reduction? Would you like to rephrase it?

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, now that you have guided me, it is okay.  I am alright.

 

Mr Fungulwe (Lufwanyama): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salary Division III – K6,070,934. The allocations for divisions I and II have been increased. Why is there a drastic decrease for this particular allocation?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salary Division II – K6,070,934, the decrease is attributed to the corrected disparities in the single spine salary structure where more officers in Division III where migrated to Division II where the hon. Member has noted some upward adjustments in the allocation.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/03 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Passport and Citizenship – K7,649,902).

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4007, Activity 002 – Personnel Related Arrears – K150,000. Why has it been reduced from K2,000,000?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 4007, Activity 002 – Personnel Related Arrears – K150,000, the reduction has been due to the rationalisation of resources.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Jere (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4032, Activity 002 – Maintenance of Digitalised Mrps Network – K3,100,000. This is too much money just for maintenance. Can the hon. Minister explain?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4032, Activity 002 – Maintenance of Digitalised Mrps Network – K3,100,000 may seem too much in the eyes of the hon. Member, but I want to tell him and the august House that this amount is required for the maintenance of the digitalised Mrps Network and dedicated Zambia Telecommunications Company Ltd (ZAMTEL) lease lines for the passports production system in 2017. The increase of K500,000 is due to the increased number of sites with lease lines.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – K20,000, Activity 020 – Shows and Exhibitions – K20,000, Activity 023 – Wold Aids Day – K10,000, Activity 040 – Youth Day Celebrations – K10,000 and Activity 047 – Public Service Day Celebrations – K10,000. I do not know why Independence Day is missing out on the list.

 

Madam, I am stressed by this situation. Part of the stress is coming from the fact that only the hon. Members from the United Party for National Development (UPND) are doing the work. I am not hearing any questions coming from hon. Members from the Patriotic Front (PF) ...

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: If you have no question, please, sit down. Do you have a question?

 

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, last year, there was no money allocated to all these activities apart from the Labour Day Celebrations, but in the year of austerity, there are allocations to all of them. This is making my brain tired because our colleagues are not participating in this work.

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: Order!

 

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1831 hours

 

[THE FIRST CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the

Chair]

 

Vote 15/04 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – National Archives of Zambia – K5,584,097).

 

Mr Mwene: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4006, Activity 008 – Subscriptions to International and Local Organisations – K17,000, why the reduction?

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the reduction is due to limited resources available. So, the National Archives will only subscribe to those international organisations that are key to their operations.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K593,122, why the reduction.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, yes, indeed, there is a decrease on this activity. The reduction is attributed to the corrected disparities in the single spin salary structure. More officers in Division III were migrated to Division II.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 15/05 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Immigration Department – K46,612,064).

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K5,268,700, why the increase?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, this allocation is meant to pay salaries to officers in Division I. The increase is attributed to the annual salary increments awarded to officers in Division I arising from the harmonised and rationalised salaries.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Mr Samakayi (Mwinilunga): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K2,816,163, why the reduction. Does it mean a lot of people have been retired on national interest?

 

Laughter

 

Mr Kampyongo: Certainly, this increase is not attributed …

 

The First Chairperson: It is a decrease, hon. Minister.

 

Mr Kampyongo: This decrease is not attributed to the reasons the hon. Member is alleging.

 

Madam Chairperson, the reduction is attributed to the corrected disparities in the single spin salary structure and thus more officers in this division have migrated to Division II arising from the harmonised and rationalised salaries.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Members indicated.

 

The First Chairperson: I said three people will ask questions on clarifications.

 

Mr Chaatila: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 077 – HIV/AIDS and Wellness – K51,000, why the reduction.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the decrease is as a result of budgetary constraints and therefore, the activities have been scaled down.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/06 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – National Registration Department – K47,503,467).

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4007, Activity 002 – Personnel Related Arrears – K80,000. Is the National Registration Department doing so well that they have dismantled three quarters of the arrears?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4007, Activity 002 – Personnel Related Arrears – K80,000. Indeed, they dismantled a reasonable sum of money in the fiscal year.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/08 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Research and Information Department – K6,387,649).

 

Mr Jere: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – Nil. Last year, K84,233 was allocated to this activity, but this year nothing has been allocated to it. Could the hon. Minister explain why this activity has not been budgeted for?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – Nil. This activity has not been budgeted for in the next fiscal year as a result of the migration of officers from Division III to Division II.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/09 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Lusaka Province – Zambia Correctional Services – K808,298).

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utility Bills – K180,000. Could the hon. Minister explain why this figure has remained the same when we are alive to the fact that the water and Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) tariffs have been increased?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4001, Activity 009 – Utility Bills – K180,000. Indeed, we would have loved to increase the amount to this allocation. However, like any other activity, we could only do with what was available.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 15/09, Vote 15/10, Vote 15/11, Vote 15/12, Vote 15/13, Vote 15/14, Vote 15/15,

Vote 15/16, Vote 15/17, Vote 15/18, Vote 15/19, Vote 15/20, Vote 15/21, Vote 15/22, Vote15/23 and Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

 

VOTE 15/25 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Passport and Citizenship – K202,399).

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 012 – Processing of Travel Documents – K123,499. I know that the people of Southern Province like to travel but I can see that there is a decrease on this budget line. Hon. Minister, when this K123,499 is exhausted, will the people of Southern Province not be inconvenienced?

 

The First Chairperson: What is your question, hon. Member?

 

Ms Lubezhi: My question is: Why is there a reduction when the population in the Southern Province has been increasing and there will be more people getting travel documents?

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, why is there is a reduction from K140,000 in 2016 to K123,499 in 2017?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 4031, Activity 012 – Processing of Travel Documents – K123,499 has reduced due to the resources that we were allocated. However, I want to assure the hon. Member for Namwala and the people of Southern Province that this activity will be supplemented by support from the Passport and Citizenship Headquarters.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Votes 15/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/26 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Lusaka Province – Immigration Department – K1,232,480).

 

 Mr Mwene (Mangango): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4010, Activity 001 – Bank Charges – Nil. Does this mean that there will be no bank charges next year?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, indeed, Programme 4010, Activity 001 – Bank Charges – Nil, has no allocation. However, this activity will be catered for in 2017 under the Ministry of Finance Single Account.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, I also wanted to seek clarification on Programme 4010, Activity 001 – Bank Charges – Nil. However, I will substitute it.

 

Madam, may I instead have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 040 – Youth Day Celebrations – Nil. Do we have any youths in this department?

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Chonya, there is no allocation for 2017 on this activity.

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, actually, my question has been overtaken by events.

 

Laughter

 

The First Chairperson: Thank you very much.

 

Hon. Member for Mwinilunga, you may seek your clarification.

 

Mr Samakayi: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 010 – International Women’s Day Celebrations – Nil, Activity 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – Nil, Activity 040 – Youth Day Celebrations – Nil, Activity 047 – Public Service Day Celebrations – Nil.

 

Madam Chairperson, these activities have no allocations. Could the hon. Minister explain the inconsistency in the provisions because in 2016, all the activities I have mentioned were provided for.

 

The First Chairperson: Hon. Minister, explain why there are no allocations for 2017 for these activities and not the inconsistencies.

 

Interruptions

 

Mr Samakayi: But they are inconsistencies!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, indeed, there are no allocations for these activities. However, the activities will be supported by Vote 15/01.

 

Mr Lihefu: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4011, Activity 012 – Maintenance of Computer System – Nil. In 2016, there was an allocation of K25,000. Why is there no allocation for 2017, hon. Minister?

 

 

VOTE15/26 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Lusaka Province – Immigration Department – K1,232,480).

 

Mr Lihefu: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4011, Activity 012 – Maintenance of Computer System.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, this activity will be catered for by the Immigration Headquarters under Programme 4011 – Information Management, Activity 012 − Maintenance of Computer System in 2017.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 15/26, Votes 15/27 and 15/28, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/29 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Northern Province – Immigration Department –K821,206).

 

Ms Chonya (Kafue): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4010, Activity 001 – Bank Charges …

 

Madam First Chairperson: Order!

 

 There was a question earlier and the hon. Minister answered. Could the hon. Minister of Home Affairs repeat your answer, please.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, indeed, the former controlling officer is becoming interesting.

 

Madam, I responded to this question. At the expense of repeating myself, Madam hon. Member of Parliament and former controlling officer, this activity will be catered for under the Ministry of Finance, Treasury Single Account in 2017 in all the activities, where you will find this activity.

 

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 

Votes 15/29, 15/30, 15/31, 15/32, 15/33, 15/34 ordered to stand parts of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/35 − (Ministry of Home Affairs – Lusaka Province – National Registration – K1,443,900).

 

Ms Chonya: Madam Chairperson, I am looking at Programme 4013, Activity 084 – District Continuous Registration – K155,352. I just wanted to find out from the hon. Minister if the district continuous registration for National Registration Cards (NRCs) will actually take place continuously, as the term suggests. I note that the allocation for this budget line has actually reduced from what was provided in 2016.  I am asking this because from experience this has actually not been continuous as required.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, this is one of the portfolio functions under national registration which is carried out on a daily basis and, therefore, this activity will continue.

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 15/35, 15/36, 15/37, 15/38, 15/39, 15/40 and 15/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/42 − (Ministry of Home Affairs – North-Western Province – National Registration – K1,228,843).

 

Mr Mutelo: Madam, I seek clarification on Programme 4013, Activity 084 − District Continuous Registration – K171,120. The population in the North-Western Province is increasing, but the allocation for continuous registration decreasing. May I know why.

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the reduction on this activity is attributed to some funds being reallocated to Vote 15/06, Programme 4032, Activity 001− Continuous Registration – K4,607,000.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Votes 15/43 and 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE −15/46 (Ministry of Home Affairs – Registrar of Societies – K1,676,936).

 

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4011, Activity 036 – Printing and Distribution of Registration Forms – K50,000 and Activity 050 – Inspections and Regulation of Societies – K150,000. Although the figure allocated to Inspections and Regulation of Societies has been reduced for 2017, it is still higher than the amount allocated for Printing and Distribution of Registration Forms. If the forms are not there for people to register societies, how is the Registrar of Societies going to inspect societies?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, the person who has posed the question has confused herself. I do not know how I can answer the question. May be let her restructure her question so that I can pick it.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

The First Chairperson: The Printing and Distribution of Registration Forms has an allocation which is 50 per cent of what it was in 2016 yet the Inspections and Regulation of Societies has more money. The question Ms Lubezhi is asking is: What will the Registrar of Societies be inspecting if societies do not have the registration forms?

 

Is that the question, Ms Lubezhi?

 

Ms Lubezhi: Yes!

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, obviously, there are already existing registered societies or associations. Her question was a bit unclear. These are two different activities.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote/15/46 and  Vote 15/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE − 15/48 (Ministry of Home Affairs – Katombola Reformatory Training School – K784,662).

 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4038, Activity 035 – Correctional and Skills Development – Nil. Can the hon. Minister explain why there is no allocation for this activity in 2017?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, this activity was allocated money in 2016 and it has been completed.

 

I thank you, Madam.

 

Vote 15/48, Votes 15/49 and 15/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

VOTE 15/51 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Muchinga Province – Immigration Department – K757,898).

 

Mr Sing’ombe: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002 – Events – Nil, Activities 010 – International Women’s Day Celebrations – Nil, 012 – Labour Day Celebrations – Nil, 040 – Youth Day Celebrations – Nil, and 047 – Public Service Day Celebrations – Nil. May I find out why all these important events have not been budgeted for in 2017?

 

Mr Kampyongo: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank my Colleague for that question who is a passionate former immigration officer. I wish to inform the House that these activities like other provinces will be supported under Head 15/01 Ministry Headquarters.

 

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

 

Vote 15/51, 15/52, 15/53, 15/54, 15/55, 15/56, 15/57, 15/58, 15/59, 15/60, 15/61 and 15/62 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 

__________

 

HOUSE RESUMED

 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 

(Progress reported)

 

_________

 

MOTION

 

ADJOURNMENT

 

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

 

Question put and agreed to.

 

________

 

The House adjourned at 1958 hours until 0900 hours on Thursday, 15^th December, 2016