Thursday, 27th October, 2016

Thursday, 27^th October, 2016

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER

APPENDIX TO THE NOTICE OF MOTION ON THE APPROVAL OF GOVERNMENT MINISTRIES AND DEPARTMENTS

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform you that the Appendix to the notice of Motion on the approval of Government ministries and departments circulated on Wednesday, 26^th October, 2016, has been replaced with Appendix II. The reason for the replacement is that the initial Appendix has some errors that have been ratified in Appendix II.

I thank you.

___________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

OUTCOME OF THE 11^TH AUGUST, 2016, REFERENDUM AND THE WAY FORWARD

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to issue a statement on the outcome of the referendum held on 11^th August, 2016, and the way forward.

Madam Speaker, on 11^th August, 2016, Zambia held a referendum alongside the general elections. The purpose of the referendum was to allow Zambians to vote on the following referendum question, which was:

“Do you agree to the amendment to the Constitution to enhance the Bill of Rights contained in Part III of the Constitution of Zambia, and to repeal and replace Article 79 of the Constitution of Zambia?”

Madam, in accordance with Article 79 of the Constitution, there are two requirements for the holding of a successful referendum. Firstly, at least, half of the eligible voters must vote and, secondly, the majority of those who turn out must vote in favour of the referendum question.

Madam Speaker, the population estimate for those eligible to vote in the referendum was provided by the Central Statistical Office (CSO), which is empowered by the Census and Statistics Act, Chapter 127 of the Laws of Zambia to use sampling methods to estimate the total population. The reason we relied on a population estimate was that because a national census is only conducted once every ten years and the next census for Zambia is scheduled to be held in the year 2020. Therefore, the 2010 Census figures were still valid and could be used to estimate the population of Zambia that had reached a voting age.

Madam Speaker, the estimated population of Zambians who were eligible to vote in the 11^th August, 2016, Referendum was 7,528,091. So, in order for the referendum to succeed, at least, 3,764,045 citizens needed to vote. Unfortunately, the number of eligible voters who participated in the referendum was 3,345,471, representing a turnout of 44.44 per cent, which was below the 50 per cent threshold required under Article 79 of the Constitution of the land. Of the voters who turned out, 1,852,559 voted in favour of the referendum question while 753,549 voted against it. The remaining 739,363 votes were rejected. Therefore, the referendum failed.

Madam Speaker, the failure of the referendum entails that the current Bill of Rights contained in Part III of the Constitution will be in effect until a new referendum is successfully held.

Madam Speaker, as this august House is aware, the Constitution needed to undergo a complete overhaul in order to meet the aspirations of the people. The fact that part of the Constitution has been amended makes it even more imperative that the Bill of Rights be expanded to give more rights to the citizens of Zambia. The rights contained in the proposed Bill of Rights that was subjected to the referendum included economic, social, cultural and environmental ones, as well as special rights. Specifically, the Bill of Rights would have included the following:

the right to health care services;

the right to education;

the right to decent housing;

the right to food of acceptable standard;

the right to clean and safe water;

the right to decent sanitation and social protection;

the right to choose a trade, occupation or profession;

the right to employment and fair labour practices;

consumer rights;

language, culture and intellectual property rights;

the right to a safe, clean and healthy environment;

further rights for elderly members of our society;

further protections and rights relating to marriage;

special and further rights for children;

further rights for youths and protection for young persons;

further rights for persons with disabilities;

freedom to demonstrate, picket and petition;

access to information and freedom of the media;

the right to participate in political activities;

the right of asylum seekers and refugees not to be returned to their country of origin or another country where they have a well-founded fear of persecution;

equality before the law, fair administration and access to justice, and retrial and re-examination of evidence;

rights of suspects, persons in custody and detainees; and

gender equality.

Madam Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government remains totally committed to ensuring that the will of the people is respected and that the citizens are given another opportunity, as soon as practically possible, to give themselves an enhanced Bill of Rights.

Madam Speaker, as all hon. Members of this august House are aware, the holding of the referendum is an extremely costly, but very important exercise that needs to be undertaken in a manner that engenders the highest likelihood of success. Further, the responsibility of the Government to sensitise the people on the importance of the referendum and the Bill of Rights does not end merely because the referendum of 11^th August, 2016 did not succeed. Therefore, it is the Government’s intention to continue sensitising the citizens on the importance of the two issues. Further, the Government is currently engaged in consultations that will lead to a determination of the best way forward. Once the consultations are concluded, a comprehensive statement on the way forward will be issued.

Madam Speaker, allow me, on behalf of the Government, to commend all the stakeholders, such as the churches, civil society organisations (CSO) and some political parties that sensitised the people on the importance of voting in the referendum, especially those who campaigned for the ‘yes’ vote. In addition, I commend those who voted, especially those who voted in favour of the referendum question. I also call on all the stakeholders to get involved in the further sensitisation of the people in preparation for the next processes.

Madam Speaker, let me end by reminding the House that in whatever we do, we should not reflect our personal myopic interests. Rather, we should reflect the interests of our children and their children in consonance with His Excellency President Edgar Chagwa Lungu’s statement during his Official Opening of the First Session of the Twelfth National Assembly that:

“We do not inherit our country from our forefathers or ancestors; we borrow it from our children.”

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, you are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement issued by the hon. Minister of Justice.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that the holding of a referendum is a very costly venture and that it requires a lot of consultation. Whom does the Government blame for this carelessness?

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

What is your question?

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, the people of Zambia had said that there was a need to hold the referendum and the general elections separately. However, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government stubbornly insisted on holding the two simultaneously. Today, the same Government is crying foul. So, who does it blame for this carelessness and misuse of Government resources?

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members on my right!

It is unacceptable for you to engage those on the Floor from your seats. As hon. Ministers, I expect you to help the Chair to maintain order in the House.

Hon. Minister, please, respond to the question.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, in the statement that I have just delivered, I did not ascribe carelessness to anybody. Therefore, I will leave it to my good friend to elaborate the carelessness to which he referred.

Madam Speaker, my intention in making this statement was to lay bare the facts as they are, not to say who is to blame for the failure of the referendum. It was not the intention of the Government to come here and apportion blame. On that, the people of Zambia will judge for themselves if there was any group of people who campaigned against the referendum. My role is to say that only 44.44 per cent of eligible voters turned out to vote. If the hon. Member would like to engage me on why that was the case, he is free to do so. However, references to carelessness, I am afraid, are not under my jurisdiction.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ema Minister, aba.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Madam Speaker, the referendum was held alongside the general elections. Was there any relationship between the voting patterns in the Presidential election and the referendum?

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, a quick analysis of the voter turnout in the referendum and the voting pattern in the various polling stations does tell a story. However, that story can be interpreted in many ways. So, the only thing I can say is that there is a clear indication that the areas in which one political party got the highest votes also registered very low votes for the referendum. Conversely, where another political party registered the highest votes, there were also relatively more votes for the referendum. That might indicate that one of the parties might have encouraged its members to support the referendum while the other might have done the opposite. If need be, I can mention the figures. However, for now, I think that will suffice.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Chisangano (Gwembe): Madam Speaker, was the Government adequately prepared for the referendum, especially in the area of sensitising the population on the subject matter?

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, the Government was very well prepared to conduct the referendum.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: There was not a single polling station that did not have ballot papers for the referendum.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Madam, campaigning for the referendum was not necessarily the responsibility of the Government, but that of all the stakeholders. In ending my statement, I commended all the stakeholders on behalf of the Government. Let me now do so on behalf of the people of Zambia. I mentioned that there were churches, CSOs and some political parties that actively campaigned for people to vote in the referendum. However, I am also aware of some people who campaigned vigorously against the referendum.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: So, I hope now that the issue of sensitisation is understood clearly. I reiterate that the sensitisation of the public was the responsibility of all stakeholders, not of the Government alone. Zambians know that some people campaigned for the referendum while others de-campaigned it. The record is very clear on that.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwale: Mwaona lomba.

Mr Mwamba (Lubansenshi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that there were people who campaigned against the referendum. In his view, therefore, what could have motivated those people to behave that way?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, I am reluctant to ask you to respond to that question because I do not think there is a way for you to know what would have motivated the people in question to do what they did. Do you want to respond?

Mr Lubinda indicated dissent.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam, in asking my question, I can offer to explain why we did not vote for the referendum. That is to answer the hon. Member of Parliament for Lubansenshi’s question.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, just ask your question.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Yes, Madam.

Madam, a simple summation of the figures the hon. Minister of Justice gave in his statement, that is, the votes for and against the referendum, and the spoiled ballots, total 3,335,501, plus or minus. This falls far short of the 50 per cent that the Government was looking for. It also entails that, probably, sensitisation was not done as effectively as it should have been done. So, even if the votes against the referendum and the rejected ballots had been cast in its favour, the number would still have fallen short of the requirements of Article 79 of the Constitution for a successful referendum. In view of that, who does the hon. Minister think was more myopic between those who thought the voter turnout would reach the 50 per cent threshold, that is, our colleagues on your right, and us, who foresaw that we would not reach that threshold?

Hon. Oppositions Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, figures do not lie. So, if one tries to manipulate them, they will not agree.

Madam, I am sure that everyone who cared to listen heard me very clearly when I said that the threshold of 50 per cent was not reached and that what was attained was 44.44 per cent. There is no reason for anyone to try to juxtapose the figures and speculate on what would have happened if all the votes had been in favour of the referendum when I have already mentioned the outcomes of the votes.

Madam Speaker, with regard to who was short-sighted between those who thought we could reach the threshold and those who went out and campaigned against the referendum, I repeat that it is not up to me to say. The people of Zambia will do that. I have mentioned some of the rights that should have been provided through that referendum. So, yes, those who campaigned against the referendum may have won but, unfortunately, it is the people who lost.

Madam, with regard to the question that was asked earlier, I thank you for protecting me because there is no way I can go into other people’s minds. However, I can refer to the statements they made …

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Lubinda: … some of which were made on the Floor of this House.

Mr Mwale: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, the Zambian people heard the PF, the church, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) and the Non-Governmental Organisations Co-ordinating Committee (NGOCC) campaign for the referendum and advance the reasons for it. They also heard others claim that a ‘yes’ vote in the referendum was a vote for Edgar Lungu. Therefore, they urged people to vote ‘no’ in the referendum as a way of voting against Edgar Chagwa Lungu.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We heard, Madam Speaker, only a few days ago on the Floor of this House, …

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: … that we were supposed to resign because when the British Government lost the Brexit Referendum, the Prime Minister resigned. That could have been what motivated those who campaigned against the referendum, ...

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … which is an extremely naïve way of trying to win a Presidential election.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Instead of campaigning for themselves, as a political party, to win, they spent a lot of time de-campaigning a very innocent referendum, hoping that it would give them authority.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Those of us who campaigned for both power and the referendum were the wiser because, today, we are on the right side of this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Ni Zayelo, uyu.

Laughter

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Madam Speaker, does the provision on rights relating to marriage include same-sex marriage rights? Can the hon. Minister elaborate on that because we want to know.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Pemba for that very important question.

Madam Speaker, I campaigned in many parts of the country and, while campaigning in Livingstone, I was confronted with that question in the presence of Her Honour the Vice-President.

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We were told that some people wearing red shirts …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: … had been saying that voting for the referendum was voting for gay marriages.

Mr Nkombo: Who were the people in red shirts? Anyone can wear a red shirt.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I suppose that we want to listen to the answer.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, it became clear to me that there were some people who, in their quest to see the referendum collapse, may have misinformed our people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: For the sake of Hon. Mazoka, I would like to say that the proposed Bill of Rights would have forced us to enshrine the definition of marriage as that occurring between a man and a woman in the statutes of the land. That would have excluded the recognition of gay marriages.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We were very intent on ensuring that, in this country, marriage be defined in accordance with the will of the One who instituted it, that is, God Almighty.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Unfortunately, Hon. Mazoka, some people misinformed our people. As you know, some of our people are very cautious about matters like this. So, when they were told that the Bill of Rights would introduce gay marriages, they stayed away or voted against the referendum. However, today, all of us gathered in this august House realise that we denied Zambians, especially our children and their children, an enhanced Bill of Rights. So, it is up to the hon. Members on your right to find ways of giving to Zambians that which should have been given to them in the referendum.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Madam Speaker, any Government that wants to attain the aspirations of the people gives them the right to assemble, …

Mr Ngulube: Former quality.

Dr Musokotwane: … demonstrate and access information. It is also committed to provide universal access to education and health care in addition to the many other commitments that the hon. Minister read out. Any political party that wants to meet the aspirations of the people delivers on these things because that is what is expected. Is the hon. Minister’s Government failing to deliver on these things because it is not in tune with the aspirations of the people or is it really the case of failing to deliver on those rights …

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: … because of the failure of the referendum?

Mr Sikazwe: What kind of question is that?

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I excuse the hon. Member for asking that question. He might not have followed my statement well because he has just come into the House.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my far right!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, besides reading out more rights than the ones he enunciated, I also said that this PF Government, …

Mr Mwanakatwe: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: … notwithstanding the fact that there were people who campaigned vigorously against the enhancement of the Bill of Rights, was still committed to ensuring that those rights were not only respected in action, but also enshrined in the law.

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: It is one thing to provide and another to protect them by enshrining them in the Constitution.

Madam, from the time we started talking about the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the referendum, these people here (indicated hon. PF Members) have not faltered in their desire to be held accountable to the law by enhancing the Bill of Rights in Part III of the Constitution. It is those who de-campaigned the Bill of Rights whom the hon. Member should ask whether they would even have thought about the Bill of Rights had they, by some fortune, formed Government.

Mr Ngulube: ‘Can’t never!’

Mr Lubinda: I am sure that Zambians will be able to say a categorical ‘no’ in response to that question.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkhuwa (Chingola): Madam Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister mention that he had some figures. For the benefit of the doubt, can he give us the numbers for the voting pattern.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, for the benefit of those who doubt, let me give the provincial totals for the two front-runners in the just-ended Presidential election, namely the PF and the United Party for National Development (UPND). I will, then, compare those figures with the votes cast in the referendum so that hon. Members can infer the meanings for themselves.

Province PF Vote UPND Vote Referendum

Central 42 54 49

Copperbelt 62 34 63

Eastern 39 08 71

Luapula 40 07 63

Lusaka 34 22 66

Muchinga 46 07 76

Northern 39 11 65

North-Western 07 52 18

Southern 05 65 18

Western 09 45 21

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Mr Lubinda: Madam, there is a very clear indication that wherever the UPND won more votes, the referendum suffered. Conversely, wherever the PF got more votes, the referendum triumphed. So, there is a direct correlation. Like I said, these figures can be interpreted in any way one wishes and this is just my interpretation.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Madam Speaker, a referendum is an agenda of a party in government and when it fails, in a civilised society, those in government resign on moral grounds. Can the hon. Minister of Justice tell us why the Patriotic Front (PF) Government failed to resign on moral grounds, especially given the fact that the referendum was tied ‒

Interruptions

Ms Lubezhi: Madam Speaker, I need your protection.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on both my right and on my left!

Ms Lubezhi: I thank you for protecting me from the high-level hecklers.

Madam, why has the PF Government failed to resign on moral grounds, especially given the fact that the referendum was tied to the general elections?

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

There is only one hon. Minister of Justice. Allow him to respond.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. Colleague for confirming …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … that those who campaigned against the referendum had hoped that the PF Government would be declared the loser if the referendum failed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: However, what they forgot ― and I would like to remind my dear colleague about it ― is that although the two events were held concurrently, they were separate elections. The first had the more broadly put question: “Whom do you, Zambians, trust to deliver on their promises?”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The second question was: “Do you want to enhance your Bill of Rights?” For the first question, the answer was categorical. The people turned out and said they trusted Edgar Chagwa Lungu.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: On the other hand, the people also said that they had been told if they voted for the referendum, they would also vote for Edgar Chagwa Lungu. What followed is that the people withheld their vote in the referendum, but voted for Edgar Chagwa Lungu, making him the first President to have been elected under the 50 per cent plus one majoritarian vote in Zambia …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … despite some people de-campaigning him using the referendum.

Hon. Member: Masholi!

Mr Lubinda: Madam, I hear some people saying “masholi”. In Lozi, that means “thieves”. I want to say that trying to get power through deceit is the denotation of that word.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Perhaps, we should end the debate on this statement.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Ngulube rose.

Mr Nkhuwa: Ema MP, aba! Hammer!

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I am not granting any point of order.

Mr Ngulube: Madam, for the sake of my …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a procedural point of order.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: No points of order, hon. Leader of the Opposition.

I want to remind you that I have a long list of hon. Members who want to debate and some of them are new. Therefore, I want to give them an opportunity to exercise their right to debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kabwe Central, you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkhuwa: Ema Speaker aba!

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, for those who doubt my name, such as the hon. Member for Monze Central, I am Tutwa Ngulube …

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kabwe Central!

You are asking ...

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Leader of the Opposition!

There is only one Chair here and that is me. So, allow me to manage the Business of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kabwe Central, please, avoid debating other hon. Members of Parliament. Just ask your question.

You may continue.

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the guidance. I was just about to introduce myself as Tutwa Sandani Ngulube, Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central and Learned Counsel.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, first and foremost, allow me to express my disappointment at the failure of the referendum.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, ask a question.

Interruptions

Mr Ngulube: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I will ask my question.

Ms Phiri: Take it easy!

Amb. Malanji: Hammer!

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, seeing that the referendum was shot down by people believed to be against the Government; the suspected freemasons and Satanists who did not want the declaration …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kabwe Central!

I will not allow you to ask a question because, clearly, you do not have one.

Hon. Member for Katuba, you may ask your question on a point of clarification on the hon. Minister’s statement.

Ms Mwashingwele (Katuba): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice stated that we used the 2010 Census figures in the last referendum. If I am not mistaken, however, both the old and the new Constitution categorically state that the population for a referendum must be that of eligible voters, not only the registered voters. How did the referendum capture Zambia’s incremental population of 2.5 per cent per annum? Could the reason for our failure to meet the 50 per cent in the referendum be our failure to capture all our eligible voters?

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member might want to listen attentively so that she does not miss this again.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: Madam, in my statement, I said that the last census was held in 2010 and that the population estimate for people eligible to vote in the referendum was provided by the CSO in exercise of its powers to use sampling methods to make population estimates provided for under the Census and Statistics Act, Cap 127 of the Laws of Zambia. So, all of us here can have figures on population growth in Zambia, but the only authoritative figures are those provided by the CSO. Yes, I agree with my sister that had any one of us been deceitful, we could have come up with strange figures to make it easier for us to meet the threshold. However, we accepted the 7,528,091 as the number of eligible voters, as informed by the CSO.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Speaker, all over the world, a referendum is a litmus test of the connection between the governing elite and the people. Therefore, the failure of a referendum is a clear indication of a disconnect between the two, and the hon. Minister of Justice has clearly admitted that the governing elite in Zambia has failed to connect with the people. He has also smartly punctuated his statement with the phrase, “The next steps will be undertaken as soon as it is practically possible.” Given our lamentably declining economy and the high cost of a referendum, how practicable does he think it is to hold a referendum?

Ms Kasanda: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, Hon. Professor Lungwangwa is a very renowned lecturer. So, for people not to be misinformed by his opinion, let me just state that it is not correct that a referendum is a litmus test for the popularity of a Government.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: That is far from the truth.

Madam, the next time Hon. Professor Lungwangwa stands up to speak on this matter, he must also refer to some countries in the world that have held referendum.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I have in mind a Scandinavian country called Norway where, on two occasions, citizens were asked to vote on whether to join the European Union (EU) or not and they voted against the referendum on both occasions. That reflected the will of the citizens, but the Government did not resign. Even here, the referendum question was not on the popularity of the PF, ...

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: ... but on whether the people wanted the Government to amend Article 79 of the Constitution in order to enhance the Bill of Rights. It was totally different from the question that was answered in the Presidential elections. Were Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa’s analysis correct, then, the result of the referendum would have been the same as that of the general elections. In fact, I am sure that the professor knows this very well. I, therefore, hope that those who respect his eloquence will take it that his question was asked in jest and as an attempt to advance a political issue rather than a fact.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the practicality of holding a referendum, I want to tell Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa that I chose the phrase ‘as soon as it is practically possible’ very carefully. When I say “practically possible”, I am also alluding to my statement that the Government is consulting. I also indicated that the exercise is very costly. So, we will need to look at the fiscus. When the consultations have been concluded and the fiscus permits, we will certainly go back to the people of Zambia. Hopefully, this time, they will not be ill-treated and given a pack of stories that do not relate to the question. I am glad that they answered the other question positively, much to the pain of some people.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mwape (Mkushi North): Madam Speaker, what measures are being put in place to ensure that Zambia holds a successful referendum on enhanced social and economic rights in the near future, as the last referendum was meant to benefit the people of Zambia.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on the left!

Princess Mwape: Therefore, it should not have been politicised.

Mr Ngulube: Ema Princess, aba!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, I know that you have already answered that question but, maybe, just for the benefit of the hon. Member for Mkushi North, you can answer again.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, indeed, I answered that question.

Madam, let me thank the hon. Member because I heard that when campaigning for her seat, she also campaigned for the referendum, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … and I can imagine that she is sad that the referendum did not succeed. However, I assure her and the people of Zambia that this Government has already started consultations on the matter. When those consultations have been concluded and we are ready to hold the referendum again, we will do just that.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mbangweta (Nkeyema): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that there were people who campaigned against the referendum. I would like him to share with us ―

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

He is asking a question.

Mr Mbangweta: Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell us whether there were other factors that could have led to the failure of the referendum.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, some people voted in the referendum while others did not. That is what I know. Certainly, some people may not have voted because they were ill. However, I cannot attribute the failure of the referendum to that. What is clear to me is that had all the people who voted in the elections also voted in the referendum, the referendum would have succeeded. Therefore, the only factor to which I can attribute the failure of the referendum were the campaigns against it. Other factors could have played a role, but the most significant were those who opposed it.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwewa (Mwansabombwe): Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I finally caught your eye.

Hon. Government Members: Hmm!

Mr Mwewa: Madam Speaker, I thank my able and learned hon. Minister of Justice for his informative statement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwewa: His answers are very appropriate and we are pleased to have him as our hon. Minister. That said, is he aware that some Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) officers were coerced or influenced by the United Party for National Development (UPND) to de-campaign the referendum?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

Hon. Member for Mwansabombwe, are you able to substantiate what you are saying? Further, I must remind you of our rule that prohibits hon. Members from casting aspersions on people who are not able to come to this House and defend themselves. So, unless you have proof of what you are saying, I advise you to desist from taking that path.

You may ask your question.

Mr Mwewa: Madam Speaker, I have seen and heard what I am talking about. My people also heard about it and some women came to me and complained about it.

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: What I am talking about is the truth. The ECZ officers went to my constituency and tried to shoot down the referendum. So, I went there to tell the people that I was their Member of Parliament and that they needed to listen. Is the hon. Minister aware of that? If he is aware, what penalties can be meted out on those officers who shot down the referendum?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, we all know that the officers of any institution are also human beings and citizens and that the conduct of individual members of an institution cannot be attributed to the institution. However, I am not aware of any particular officer of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) who campaigned against the referendum. However, that is not to say that all the officers in that institution are immune to such behaviour. There could have been some officers who were attracted to the message of those who de-campaigned the referendum and such people may have acted beyond their job description and de-campaigned the referendum, too. Obviously, that is regrettable, and I am sure that we are not the only ones who regret the failure of the referendum. As you may recall, a few days ago, one of my colleagues on your left lamented the fact that we do not have an enhanced Bill of Rights. My hon. Colleagues in the UPND and those from other parties represented here all regret our failure to enhance our Bill of Rights. So, I am sure that when the Government comes up with recommendations on how to move that process forward, it will be supported by every citizen and everyone who is here on their account.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Madam Speaker, I listened to the figures that the hon. Minister of Justice mentioned. That said, how quickly can we bring back the referendum in order not to disappoint the people of Muchinga, the Eastern and other provinces who voted for the referendum? It was the common man who lost the opportunity to have an enhanced the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I think that we should leave the 11^th August, 2016, Elections behind us. We have a Government in place. Yes, we lost the referendum and we must now forge ahead. In doing so, I want to say to hon. Members of Parliament that some of the rights in the proposed Bill of Rights could be enacted by this House as subsidiary legislation. Nothing stops us from doing that. So, I appeal to all of us in this House to be open to that. Some countries have enshrined human rights in their Human Rights Acts. It is, therefore, possible for us, with versatile, fourth-term Parliamentarians like the Leader of the Opposition, to do the same. They can propose a Human Rights Bill to enshrine some rights in the Bill of Rights. So, I assure the hon. Member for Msanzala that this matter has the active attention of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Lungu and his Government. Pretty soon, we shall come back to this House with the way forward.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, listening to the debates on the statement on the Floor just confirms to me why our forefather, Former President Dr Kenneth Kaunda, introduced a one-party political system.

Mr Mwiimbu: Question!

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Ask a question.

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, our people in the constituencies are very innocent. So, as an Independent Member of Parliament, I am asking whether there are any initiatives by the Government to engage the United Party for National Development (UPND) outside this House and negotiate the way forward on the referendum so that innocent people do not lose out on having an enhanced Bill of Rights.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I sincerely indicated that to my knowledge, the failure of the referendum was not a loss only to the people on your right, but also a loss for all Zambians. This fact is also appreciated by my colleagues on your left. In fact, I have not heard any person oppose the content of the Bill of Rights. So, I do not think it would be hard for all of us in this House to sit and decide to recover what the people have lost, that is, an opportunity to give themselves an enhanced Bill of Rights. I assure the hon. Member that I will not only consult with the UPND, but also with him and all the Independent hon. Members of Parliament. In fact, I may also extend my consultations to other stakeholders not represented in this House. In that, I look forward to the support of this House.

Madam Speaker, a one-party political system is not an issue we should discuss because we went beyond that when we agreed to re-introduce multi-party democracy in 1991. In any case, a decision to revert to a One-party State might equally require a referendum.

I thank you.

Mr Lumayi (Chavuma): Madam Speaker, I have listened to the hon. Minister’s good English. However, the current Bill of Rights contains the same rights that he says were supposed to be given to the people of Zambia, such as the rights of prisoners, detainees, political parties and others. However, those are the rights the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has been abusing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mr Lumayi: How does he think the people of Zambia would have benefited from the referendum when the Government has been abusing the rights currently in the Bill of Rights?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I wonder whether the hon. Member’s reference to the English I am using was meant as a compliment or it was a way of comparing it to the English of Hon. Douglas Syakalima, who is my good friend.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Please, do not drag Hon. Syakalima into your debate.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, the reason Zambians were asked to vote for the referendum was so that an enhanced Bill of Rights could be enshrined in the Constitution to avoid exactly what my friend thinks has been happening. Had the referendum succeeded, any person who felt that his rights had been infringed upon would have recourse to the courts of law. Unfortunately, when campaigning for his seat, my dear friend told people not to take part in the referendum. Now that he has lost the bread he wants to eat it. Alas! It is in the dust bin.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: So, he and other opposition hon. Members should look for a way of bringing it back on the table and we are willing to work with them. They should not refer to rights that they campaigned against. We should leave that behind us and work together to give Zambians an enhanced Bill of Rights.

I thank you, Madam.

CLARIFICATION ON THE DEPOSITING OF TOLL FEES IN DEDICATED ACCOUNT

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Chitotela): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify the issues raised in the point of order raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central regarding the account into which toll fees are deposited.

Madam Speaker, in accordance with Section 13 of the Public Finance Act No. 16 of 2004, all general revenues and other public monies that accrue to the Treasury are required to be credited to the consolidated fund account, Control 99, at the Bank of Zambia. Therefore, all the money raised from toll fees, as public revenue, is deposited into Control Account 99. The channelling of all public money into the Consolidated Fund is meant to streamline accounting for public resources.

Madam Speaker, once funds collected as toll fees are paid into Control 99, they are transferred into the Road Fund Account, which is used by the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) to fund road projects. This is in accordance with a statutory instrument issued in 2008, which stipulates that all toll charges must be paid into the Road Fund Account.

Madam Speaker, I assure this august House that there is nothing irregular regarding the account into which revenues from the tolling programme are deposited. All the money is deposited and accounted for.

Madam, regarding the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali on how many people would be employed once the National Tolling Programme has been fully implemented, the answer is that the Government expects to create 239 permanent jobs by the end of 2017.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

____________

MOTION

APPROVAL OF GOVERNMENT MINISTRIES AND DEPARTMENTS

The Vice-President (Mrs Wina): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that this House do approve the dissolution and establishment of Government ministries and departments by the President.

Madam Speaker, under Article 92(2)(d) of the Constitution, the President is empowered to establish, merge and dissolve Government ministries, subject to the approval of this House. We, accordingly, ask the House to approve the proposed dissolution and establishment of Government ministries.

Madam Speaker, in his address to this august House on Friday, 30^th September, 2016, His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, announced proposals to re-align some Government ministries and departments, and create others. He further proposed to transfer some portfolios from some ministries to others.

Madam Speaker, the proposals by His Excellency the President are intended to devise ways and means of rationalising the existing structures to ensure prudence in our Government’s quest to provide improved services to its people.

Madam Speaker, our Government is in a hurry to diversify the economy from its total dependence on copper mining to manufacturing, agro-production and agro-processing. It is also in a hurry to provide the social and economic infrastructure that will contribute to the attainment of accelerated development for our people. Once the road infrastructure is spread out across the country, it will have the net effect of lowering production costs, as agricultural inputs and outputs will be accessible to our citizens at a low cost. Further, previously inaccessible markets and sources of inputs will be opened up. For example, all infrastructure development programmes will now support accelerated agricultural development, which is the prioritised lever in our economic diversification programme. Similarly, we are promoting electronic governance and the Pamodzi One-Stop Service Centres to ensure that all citizens across the national territory are able to access public services with minimum costs either electronically or through mobile platforms. The Smart Zambia institute will play a cardinal role in creating a society that fully embraces modern technology in the pursuit of national and individual prosperity.

Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President has created the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs to acknowledge the supremacy of God in our national affairs and give life to our declaration of Zambia as a Christian nation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The new ministry will also be responsible for the nationwide internalisation of our national values and principles articulated in Article 8 of the Constitution and clustered as follows:

morality and ethics;

patriotism and national unity;

democracy and constitutionalism;

human dignity, equity, social justice, equality and non-discrimination;

good governance and integrity; and

sustainable development.

Madam Speaker, in addition to this, I would like to inform this august House that the national values and principles, as articulated in Article 9 of the Constitution, will apply to the following:

interpretation of the Constitution;

enactment and interpretation of the law; and

development and implementation of state policy.

Madam Speaker, it is against this background that His Excellency the President will make annual reports to the National Assembly on progress in the application of our national values and principles. In that regard, the new ministry will have the task of developing programmes and projects that will make it possible for the President to make substantive reports to the National Assembly.

Madam Speaker, the ministries that are being proposed for restructuring are the following:

Ministry of Local Government and Housing;

Ministry of Energy and Water Development;

Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection; and

Ministry of Works and Supply.

Madam Speaker, the ministries that will be reconstituted by the transfer of portfolios to other ministries, splitting or creation are as follows:

Ministry of Local Government;

Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development;

Ministry of Lands and Natural Resources;

Ministry of Energy;

Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection;

Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs; and

Ministry of Works and Supply.

Madam Speaker, the portfolio functions of the ministries proposed for dissolution or re-alignment are at Appendices 1 and 2 of the Motion. Appendix 3 is the complete schedule of the allocation of portfolios and statutory functions to all ministries. In addition to the created ministries, His Excellency the President has created two offices, namely Cabinet Minister, Presidential Affairs, and Cabinet Minister, Office of the Vice-President. These two offices will provide for interfacing between the Presidency and the Vice-Presidency, on the one hand, and the people and various stakeholders, on the other. They will also undertake official activities on behalf of their supervising officers.

Madam Speaker, the House should note that there will be no need for the creation of additional positions in the reconfigured ministries, except in the ministries of National Guidance and Religious Affairs, and Housing and Infrastructure Development. In that regard, efforts will be made to ensure that the internal re-alignment provides the best efficiencies possible. Hon. Members may also wish to note that although some institutions have been defunct for a number of years, they still appear under Statutory Institutions and Bodies, as they were created by Acts of Parliament that have not been repealed. I hope that anomaly will be rectified soonest.

Madam Speaker, with these few words, I beg to move.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka (Msanzala): Madam Speaker, first and foremost, I commend the President for deciding to create more ministries.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, let me comment on the Ministry of Religious Affairs and National Guidance. As a child, the first congregation I attended was at church. It moulded me into what I am today.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Madam, the creation of the Ministry of Religious Affairs and National guidance is a sign that the President is a ‘God-fearing child’.

Interruptions

Mr Mwale: Ni mwana wamulungu!

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, the President is a ‘God-fearing child’ …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: … and is assuring us that Zambia is a Christian nation.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: So, this ministry is very important.

Madam, when I was still young, I remember that there was a department responsible for national guidance. Its head was a Mr Arnold Simuchimba. So, reviving that department under this new ministry is the right way forward for this country.

Madam Speaker, we have seen many bad things happen in this country. However, if we believe in God, nothing will be impossible.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: There are many people doing wrong things in this country and the only way to help them adjust is to get them to believe that Zambia is a Christian nation.

Madam Speaker, this ministry will help us to mould our young ones, who are growing up without understanding family and religious values. So, I need not belabour the importance of this good idea, which has been conceived at the right time, when this country is witnessing the manifestation of many misunderstandings. It is only through religion that we can work and live together as ‘One Zambia, One Nation’.

Madam Speaker, I am one of those who grew up in another province and whose children have grandmothers and grandfathers from the Western and North-Western provinces, and Bembaland.

Hon. UPND Members: So what?

Mr Daka: With the current behaviour and prevailing sectionalism, it is only through the Church that we can unite, and work and live together.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Madam, President Edgar Chagwa Lungu is a God-given leader to this country.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: We must accept that because it is God who has brought some of us back into Parliament. It is not through magic or witchcraft. Those who believe in witchcraft will not go to church because their vitumwa or charms will fall off.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Msanzala!

Can you translate the word ‘vitumwa’.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Point at them.

Mr Mwale: Lay them on the Table of the House.

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, I think that there are some people who believe in a god different from the God in whom we believe. The vitumwa I am talking about are charms.

Madam, sometimes, during elections, there are many practices of witchcraft perpetrated by those who do not believe in God. However, when you believe in God, you will not even want to revenge because vengeance does not belong to you. God has taught us to love.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order in the House!

Mr Daka: That is why he sent Jesus Christ to die for us. I know that I am not allowed to quote any verses. So, suffice it for me to say that this is a good idea, and I want to emphasise the fact that the President has gone miles in the right direction. We are in a hurry to create this ministry because we have to live righteously.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to oppose the Motion moved by Her Honour the Vice-President.

Madam Speaker, the Her Honour the Vice-President has stated that there was prudence and rationality in coming up with these ministries, but I beg to differ. If you look at the configuration of the ministries that have been proposed, you will come to only one conclusion: that there is no prudence or consideration for posterity in the proposed creation and restructuring of ministries.

Madam Speaker, just last week, the hon. Minister of Finance came to this House and lamented the poor condition of our economy. He also asked us, the people of Zambia, to prepare for harsh times ahead. He has, since then, been preaching that his Government will effect austerity measures in the management of the finances of the Republic. Alas! The proposed creation of ministries is not consistent with the austerity measures promised. If anything, it will increase Government expenditure.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, if you look at what has been proposed, there is no prudence whatsoever. These proposals are merely intended to appease some individuals who could not be accommodated in the current Government structure.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: There is no other intention.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, let me buttress my point. If you look at what has been left of the Ministry of Works and Supply, it is a joke. It has now become a mere Government department, a shell of its former self. Why would anyone want to continue having a ministry to execute the few functions that have been left there? Do we need a full Cabinet Minister to look after Government houses …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … or undertake Government valuation? If the ministry is not expected to formulate any policies, why do we need a Minister there? Do we need a policy on how to buy Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) vehicles?

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: You do not. All you need are managerial skills.

Madam Speaker, let me now debate the issue raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Msanzala, Hon. Daka, on the creation of the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. This proposal reminds me of the abominable days of United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government, when the lives of Zambians were regulated. We were told how to dress, comb our hair or smile in public …

Laughter

Mr Mwiiimbu: … by the Ministry of National Guidance. That is where we are coming from. The Government has now come up with a ministry that will regulate the morals of Zambians.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, is that the intention? This proposal reminds me of communist regimes, ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … which always have a ministry for religious affairs and the governments regulate the conduct of churches. That is what will happen in this country. An hon. Minister will now regulate churches on whether to close their eyes when praying …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … or not. Is that what we want in this country? The answer is no.

Madam Speaker, my Church, the Roman Catholic Church, has strongly voiced its opposition to the creation of this ministry.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: So has the Christian Council of Zambia (CCZ).

Hon. Government Members: They are UPND sympathisers.

Mr Mwiimbu: Only a fraction of the Evangelical Fellowship of Zambia (EFZ) supports the creation of this ministry. So, the ministry is not wanted by those it is intended to serve. Why do we want to divide the body of Christ in this country …

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and create confusion in the Christian fraternity?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, although it is not allowed to quote the Bible, yesterday, Hon. Dr Imakando quoted it.

Mr Nkombo: He was stopped.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

You may not quote the Bible.

Mr Mwiimbu: I will not do it, but I am sure we still remember Hon. Dr Imakando’s quotation.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the Church is superior to the Government, ...

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: … yet we are now creating an institution that will supersede it.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was debating the proposed creation of the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs, and was saying that, as Christians, we all cherish the belief that the Church is superior to the Government. However, the Government is now proposing to subject the Church to Government supervision, which is unacceptable.

Madam Speaker, one of the portfolio functions of the proposed ministry is to preserve Christian and religious sites. I would like to hear from Her Honour the Vice-President what the Government means by ‘religious sites’. As far as I know, there are no religious sites in this country. Maybe, the Government is referring to non-Christian sites like Ku Malende in Monze and other shrines in traditional religious beliefs. Alternatively, maybe, churches are now religious sites. So, that portfolio function is very ambiguous.

Madam Speaker, there is no way the Government can build houses in this country by the mere creation of the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development, and I speak without any fear of contradiction on that. With our current economic stress, there is no way that we will build the houses.

Mr Nkombo: For whom anyway!

Mr Mwiimbu: In any case, for whom are we to build them? We should all bear in mind that this country has enacted a law to decentralise the administration of public functions to the local authorities. So, it is the duty of local authorities to provide housing and sanitation in this country. The Government’s job is to provide the requisite financing through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, the same ministry that built housing units currently in existence. That has been the model for the construction of Government houses from the pre-Independence era to date. The only problem that has led to our failure to provide the requisite amenities has been financing, not organisational inefficiency. The Government can create whatever portfolio it wishes, but if there is no financing, it will not provide the necessary amenities. I worked in the Local Government Service and I know that councils were provided with finances specifically for housing construction.

Madam Speaker, we are now trying to create an institutional framework in which there will be a conflict of roles between the hon. Minister of Local Government, who is responsible for the local authorities, and the hon. Minister of Housing and Infrastructure Development, which will administer the policy on housing. So, we are not rationalising the portfolios, but creating a deurmekaar, to borrow Hon. Hamududu’s words.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we should not create confusion deliberately.

Hon. Government Members: What does deurmekaar mean?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Monze Central, the new hon. Members of Parliament are unfamiliar with your style of debate. Could you define ‘deurmekaar’.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, it means confusion or mumble-jumbled things.

Madam, as I indicated earlier, what we should do, in light of our current financial stress, is ensure that the existing structures work prudently and efficiently. Her Honour the Vice-President has indicated that the creation of these ministries will not have financial implications. The truth is that it will have severe financial implications.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: In all the ministries being created, there will be a Minister, Permanent Secretary, directors and other senior members of the Civil Service.

Hon. Government Member: More money in people’s pockets.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I hear that the intention is to put more money in people’s pockets.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the intention of the Government should be that of rationalising the finances. However, if our colleagues’ intention is to put more money in people’s pockets, then, we will not get out of our current financial malaise. For that reason, we cannot support them.

Madam, as Members of Parliament, our intention should be to ensure that the local authorities work efficiently and prudently. The Government has been failing to finance the local authorities and, as long as that remains the case, we will not achieve anything even if we become members of the councils, as we wish to be. I have no doubt that the President of the Republic of Zambia appointed someone who is not a lawyer Minister of Justice, leaving out lawyers, because of such behaviour.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Ngulube interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, if some words were not unparliamentary, I would have used them against one hon. Member here. Let me just say that he should go to that very hot place where good Christians will not go.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Go to hell.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Members!

Hon. Member for Monze Central, you still have time to debate.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, what I am saying is that if the Government wants our support in our current financial situation, it must be seen to rationalise expenditure. There is no way we can create institutions to subsidise the pockets of individuals, yet we are punishing the people of this country by increasing the price of fuel and removing subsidies on the pretext that we do not have the money to continue the subsidies. What will the people say to us?

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, we, the hon. Members on your left, will not be part of this arrangement.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I know that some of my colleagues on your right are salivating over this proposal because they know that positions are being created for them. However, that will not help save them in the end. I know that. As Opposition hon. Members, we have consistently advised our colleagues on your right to be prudent in managing national affairs. The turnover in this House is very high. Already, those who did not listen to advice in the last Parliament are not here. So, our colleagues can take our advice or leave it. Our job is to advise them regardless of their attitude to the advice we give them.

Mr Ngulube interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, lumpen behaviour like that of those in Kabwe cannot be tolerated.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Monze Central!

Mr Mwiimbu resumed his seat.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, you still have two minutes to debate. So, you can continue after I guide you.

Firstly, I ask that you withdraw the word ‘lumpen’ in reference to one hon. Member of the House. As you do that, please, take the counsel that the hallmark of political maturity is being able to hear what is not pleasing to you, but still remain focused. So, please, as we have always guided, focus on the debate and try to be deaf to the running commentaries.

You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the wise guidance.

Madam Speaker, as I continue, I would like to appeal to the hon. Members of this august House ‒

Hon. Government Members: Withdraw that word first.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, withdraw the word ‘lumpen’.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I withdraw it and replace it with ‘pedestrian’.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, all of us in this House want to leave behind a better Zambia so that posterity does not judge us harshly. Therefore, when we advise with good intentions like I have done, our colleagues must listen.

Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President has not indicated to us how many hon. Ministers the President proposes to appoint in the wake of the proposed creation of ministries. We have heard from her submissions that there will now be a Minister for Presidential Affairs, and another in the Office of the Vice-President. As you may recall, we enacted a law in this House that limits the number of hon. Ministers to thirty. I hope that number will not be exceeded. Otherwise, some appointments will be unconstitutional.

Mr Ngulube: We will come and amend that law.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I know of the anarchy that characterised a party convention at the Mulungushi Rock of Authority where one was a returning officer.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube (Kabwe Central): Madam Speaker, I am the only pedestrian hon. Member of Parliament in the House.

Interruptions

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, the constitutional requirement of thirty ministries cannot be abrogated. I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, Mr Jack Mwiimbu, a Senior Counsel, is aware that, currently, the number of ministries is less than thirty. So, he should not worry so much because we will count the way we counted the fourteen days in the Constitutional Court.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, the intention of the Government in proposing the creation of ministries is to create efficiency. The Government wants to deliver on its mandate using ministries that will perform. The hon. Member for Monze Central is scared of the financial implications, but I believe that the Budget and everything in the Constitution will be followed to the letter. Article 92(2) of the Constitution, to which reference was made, is very clear. I also know that when there is such a proposal, this House makes the final decision.

Madam Speaker, as regards the hon. Member’s advice, whether it is genuine or not, we believe that the Ruling Party has its own advisers and that it will only listen to valid concerns, not those bordering on hatred, name-calling, finger-pointing and bitterness.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, allow me to talk about one ministry that our colleagues have much opposed, namely the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. This country has experienced unprecedented levels of political violence, immorality and so many other things that I do not even know how to describe. So, it is time Zambia moved forward. I do not know whether I heard the hon. Member for Monze Central right when I heard him say he did not want morality. I believe this ministry will not regulate people’s smiles or the way prayers are conducted in churches because it is there to provide national guidance, which has nothing to do with the way people smile in Monze, for example.

Interruptions

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, in our court processes, there is what is called mediation. The ministry can also provide mediation. For example, we saw the bitterness that was manifested in some people after they lost elections. Such people can be counselled by the ministry.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: The ministry will sit such politicians down and guide them, as part of national guidance.

Laughter

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, some political parties I will not mention have vowed never to attend any national function, including Independence Day and Labour Day celebrations. The ministry will be responsible for talking to such people. Until they form government 100 years from now, we believe that they will have to be talked to by the hon. Minister of National Guidance and Religious Affairs.

Madam Speaker, it has been alleged that after these proposed portfolio re-alignments, the Ministry of Works and Supply will only be responsible for looking after Government houses. However, we heard the hon. Minister of Works and Supply talk about the dual carriageway between Lusaka and Ndola. So, the Ministry of Works and Supply will continue to provide the services ‒

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, on the left!

Mr Mwiimbu interjected.

Mr Ngulube: You have already said that I am a pedestrian. So, why are you quarrelling with me?

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Address the Chair.

Mr Ngulube: Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President has told us that we need a ministry for Presidential affairs so that it can provide an interface between the Presidency and the masses. I believe the ministry will deal with matters that affect the masses, which fall directly under the Office of the President, such as the issue of street vendors. We also recall that there was a Vendors’ Desk in the Ministry of Presidential Affairs in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government of President Frederick Chiluba. We did not see any abuse of that office, unless our colleagues can produce evidence to that effect. So, we need not fear abuses in that ministry when created.

Madam, some people are scared that some people will be employed when the ministries are created. That is the normal thing to happen because the ministries will have to have hon. Ministers, just like some people wanted to be in the Government, God forbid. The only thing they can do is understand that their time will come.

Mr Chiteme: If at all.

Mr Ngulube: Yes, if at all it will ever come.

Madam Speaker, on the claim that there will be a conflict of roles between the Ministry of Local Government and the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development, I am of the opinion that there will never be such a conflict because each ministry will have its own policies. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government will never allow two ministries to fight for the same function. I repeat: this working Government will never allow two hon. Ministers to fight for the same function.

Madam Speaker, allow me to also delve into issues that were raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central regarding ‒

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kabwe Central!

I know that you are trying to defend the Government’s proposals, but Her Honour the Vice-President will respond to the concerns raised by other hon. Members at some point. So, I ask you to debate as hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwe Central.

Mr Ngulube: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Speaker.

Madam, all the departments that will be re-aligned in the wake of the proposed changes in the ministries’ portfolios will move with their staff. So, if there will be any financial implication of that movement, we believe that the PF Government will oblige with the Constitutional and budgetary requirements approved by this House. In my understanding, there are only two new ministries being created, namely the ministries of National Guidance and Religious Affairs, and Presidential Affairs.

Hon. PF Member: No, only one. The rest are old.

Mr Ngulube: All the changes in the other ministries will not affect the financial status of this country in any way.

Madam Speaker, we support the reasoning behind the creation of these ministries. If you listened to the President’s Speech during the Official Opening of the First Session of the Twelfth National Assembly, the President was very categorical in setting out the reasons for the creation of some ministries and dissolution or re-alignment of others.

Madam, let me conclude by stating that the PF Government is a working Government and that even after the re-alignment, no works will suffer. Any project that was started will not stall. Our colleagues need not fear anything. All they have to do is understand that there is only one President in this country and that his name is Mr Edgar Lungu.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity. Let me also thank Her Honour the Vice-President most sincerely for bringing out what the aspirations of the Patriotic Front (PF) are vis-à-vis the proposed creation, re-alignment and abolition of some ministries in accordance with Article 92(2) of our Constitution.

Madam Speaker, from the outset, let me adopt the hon. Member for Monze Central’s debate as my own. I confirm that we are very strongly opposed to the creation of these ministries, especially at a time like now.

Madam Speaker, in 2011, when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) lost power to the PF, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, may his soul rest in peace, later unveiled a nineteen-member Cabinet, which was smaller than the twenty-three-member MMD Cabinet. I must confess that I sorely miss Mr Sata right now.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, when Mr Sata unveiled his lean Cabinet, he was responding to the cry of the people and implementing austerity measures. He amalgamated and re-aligned ministries.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I can bet you my bottom kwacha that if by some miracle the great son of the soil resurrected to see what is going on now, he would be very sad.

Mr Mutale: Akulanda pali Hakainde.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, just under a week ago, Hon. Mutati, the Minister of Finance, spoke about what he called a roadmap to economic recovery, which spelt out some measures that his Government would effect to bring about that recovery. I want to believe that this move by President Lungu is a misguided one ...

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mr Nkombo: ... and an afterthought meant for self-preservation by creating jobs for those who may have helped him to be where he is.

Mr Ngulube: Ah!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the United States of America (USA), with a population of 324,207,000 people, …

Mr Ngulube: Only?

Mr Nkombo: … has only seventeen Cabinet positions and that includes the President and the Vice-President.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the population of the USA is twenty-one times bigger than that of Zambia.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: Says who? Question!

Mr Nkombo: That is austerity.

Mr Ngulube: Those are federal states.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, bringing the argument closer to home, just across from here, in Mozambique, President Filipe Nyusi, whose country has a population of 25.8 million citizens, ...

Mr Ngulube: Source of information?

Mr Nkombo: ... runs a thirteen-member Cabinet. That is a fact and I am sure that my brother and friend, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, can attest to that fact. Meanwhile, Uganda, which the PF is now fraternising, …

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: ... has seventy-four ministries for a population of about 42 million.

Mr Ngulube: Only?

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, some greenhorn is saying ‘only’. I am sure that water finds its level.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, what I am saying here are facts of life and what I am trying to do is demonstrate to Her Honour the Vice-President that if I were given the opportunity to advise, I would say this is a venture not worth embarking on. Right now, Zambians are at the lowest of their economic wellbeing. It is not a secret that ever since the PF came into power, the poverty levels in this country have gone up.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes.

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, the point I am driving, whether one likes it or not, …

Mr Ngulube: Source of information?

Mr Nkombo: … is that if I were Her Honour the Vice-President, I would advise my boss to seal the loopholes exposed by the Auditor-General’s Report.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Let us seal the wastage, pilferage or haemorrhage of public resources. The Auditor-General’s Report calls it mismanagement.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, …

Mr Ngulube: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kabwe Central!

I will not grant any point of order. Please, resume your seat.

Mr Nkombo: … I would like to argue, and I know that the hon. Minister of Finance, who has been a role model to me, …

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … will agree that the state in which he found the economy is not impressive.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: He is just a diplomatic gentleman. Otherwise, the economy is in tatters.

Madam Speaker, the budget performance for 2016 is in a severe deficit ...

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: ... and the arrears are astronomical.

Mr Ngulube: Source of information, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, just this afternoon, …

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mr Nkombo: … we had a lengthy meeting ‒

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mr Nkombo: ... those of us who do ‒ with the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The members of the Committee on Estimates interacted with the IMF today, and we do not even need to shout this and that from Makululu.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: It is a fact.

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Mr Nkombo: The hon. Minister of Finance knows that our country is running a budget deficit.

Mr Ngulube: Zambia Compound in Mazabuka.

Ms Lubezhi: Umfwa!

Mr Nkombo: Madam, if I were given the opportunity to advise, those would be my focus areas because this hon. Minister of Finance requires the support of both sides of the divide. For sure, advice can be heeded or ignored. However, how can I support him in creating the Ministry of Local Government, for instance, when we clearly know that the PF Government failed to release the grants to the local authorities during the last meeting of this House? The Government also introduced the Local Authorities Equalisation Fund, but still failed to disburse any money under that programme. Some hon. Members are new here. Therefore, they do not understand what I talking about.

Madam Speaker, my point is simply that there are many areas in which we can develop our country together. I have to say that I respect Hon. Sumaili a lot because she has integrity. So, what I am about to say has nothing to do with her, as the bearer of the office.

Madam Speaker, I am an Adventist of the Adventist faith …

Hon. Government Members: So!

Mr Nkombo: … and the person who spoke before me, Hon. Mwiimbu, is Catholic. It is not a secret that some denominations and other religious groupings, such as the Hindus, Buddhist and the Muslims, will have challenges working with this ministry. How will they be served by the ministry?

Hon. Government Members: It is a Christian nation.

Mr Nkombo: Madam, someone is saying that this is a Christian nation. I wish you could spot them and give them the Floor to debate so that they show their intelligence. As I see it, they are currently only exhibiting their ignorance.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Please, just focus on your debate and address the Chair. I guided, not too long ago, that we should show our political maturity by ignoring running commentaries.

You may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I thank you for the guidance.

Madam, we must cut the suit to the size of our cloth. Those who speak to Mr Lungu must tell him that the idea of dividing the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and forgetting, in the functions, an integral function of local government, such as undertaking, is not right. The undertaking function has been omitted, yet people die every day. Instead, prominence has been given to things like liquor, traditional beer levy and liquor licensing. To add insult to injury, and I am sure that the House will agree with me, we will vote and I know that the right will win. So, I think we should put across our sentiments before the House votes.

Mr Ngulube interjected.

Mr Nkombo: Shut up, Tutwa!

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Some hon. Members on my far right have continued to disturb debate. I advise such to desist from doing so. Otherwise, I will send them out of the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, please, continue.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I appreciate your guidance. When other hon. Members are debating, I am always quiet and attentive. That is my nature. So, I expect similar behaviour from my colleagues.

Madam, during the last meeting, the PF Government presented the Market and Bus Stations Bill to this House and it was enacted. Unfortunately, that law has not been operationalised because the then hon. Minister of Justice, who is not here today, did not do his job. He left us this malaise. So, how will the local authorities regulate the bus stations and markets, which is one of their new functions, when the Government has allowed people to do anything they wish anywhere on the street?

Madam Speaker, there is a clear duplication of functions regarding the water and sanitation function, as it is a function of both the Ministry of Local Government and the Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: To me, that indicates that this was done in a hurry, and speed kills.

Madam Speaker, the President should not bloat the Government for self-preservation. He should find an enterprise or something else instead of creating ministries to please his friends, the Christians for Lungu, an organisation that is now being rewarded at the expense of Zambians.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

We have no evidence that these ministries are being created for a particular group of people. So, please, try to stay away from that line of debate.

You may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Madam, I always treasure your counsel. I freely oblige.

Madam, let me now say something on national guidance. Who needs to be guided? That is a big question one might ask in a democratic country like Zambia. I cannot start guiding you or anybody else. As long as I live my life in harmony with the law, I must be allowed the space to live.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: This society has developed a hundredfold since we removed the United National Independence Party (UNIP) from power. Unfortunately, I see the tenets and tendencies of UNIP slowly creeping back in just like when we were being colonised.

Madam, this ministry is, obviously, being created for superfluous reasons to make the outside world believe that we are Christian and that we love one another. However, I want to argue that even as we establish this ministry, one of the challenges that Hon. Reverend Sumaili will face is that of making sure that there is genuine reconciliation between people, not this reconciliation that goes on at the forest where sinners congregate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam, there must be genuine reconciliation.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Mazabuka Central!

I do not think that you, being human, have the capacity to judge who is a sinner and who is not. I know that the people who have been congregating at the place to which you allude are not sinners.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: You may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I am very grateful and I will withdraw my statement very gladly.

Madam, some saints went to repent …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … at the forest. That is precisely my point. Saints who are not truly saints are called hypocrites.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, what I am trying to say is that we must be genuine. This job that is being given to the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs is for the three Church mother bodies. When politicians fail to reconcile, they must be able to seek the help of independent third parties, such as the Zambia Episcopal Conference (ZEC), the Christian Council of Zambia (CCZ) and the Evangelical Fellowship of Zambia (EFZ) which, to me, is now a PF branch.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Nkombo!

It might be your opinion, but the Evangelical Fellowship of Zambia (EFZ) is not able to come here to defend itself. You know very well that under Cap. 12 of the Constitution, you enjoy immunity. As you enjoy that immunity, however, you must be fair to those who do not have the privilege of coming to this House and debate with you.

You may continue, but withdraw that statement first.

Mr Nkombo: I gladly withdraw it, Madam Speaker.

My point is that we must move away from hypocrisy. We have heard self-proclaimed Christians in this House tell us that there are no political prisoners. It was very sad to hear our colleagues say things that were actually very far from the truth. For the record, Zambia Police officers mistook a police inspector who was cycling from Choma to Batoka for an ordinary southerner. Those police boys from Kamfinsa ‒

Mr Lufuma: Recruits?

Mr Nkombo: Yes, recruits or whatever they are called. They have not yet graduated or been commissioned.

Madam, this message goes especially to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. If we are to talk about religion and reconciliation, we must walk the talk.

Madam Speaker, the uniformed boys from Sondela, …

Mr Mulenga: Which boys?

Mr Nkombo: … brutalised their fellow police officer …

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Nkombo: … beyond recognition and mutilated his leg. It was only when they took him to the police station that the station commander asked them how they could brutalise one of their own. As I speak to you, the victim is in Choma General Hospital nursing his wounds. That happened in Zambia, and you must hear the officer narrate his ordeal.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Nkombo: The uniformed boys said that they had been sent specifically to discipline the southerners.

Amb. Malanji: It is not true.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, it is a tall order to discipline a person like me, especially if I have not done anything wrong. It is difficult to do that no matter who tries to do it.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear! Look at them!

Mr Nkombo: Madam, the idea of national guidance sounds true to those who have not experienced PF-sponsored police brutality.

Madam, I want you and the House to know that there is no dictator who has stood the test of time.

Mr Kaziya: Who is the dictator?

Mr Nkombo: Somehow, they all fizzle out.

Mr Mweetwa: They die.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The once-feared Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi were later found in manholes hiding from their people. So, we must accommodate one another.

Madam Speaker, let us assume that our colleagues are on the Government side because they won the elections.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, we are still in court so to say that they won the elections is an assumption. So, assuming they won the elections, why can they not be magnanimous and accommodate everyone? We are in a democratic dispensation. Therefore, they should not be like the colonialists who came with the Bible in one hand and a sjambok in the other. It will simply not work. What we are calling for here is genuineness.

Mr Mwiimbu: Look at them!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, whether one wants to admit it or not, the country is divided. Let me speak on behalf of most people of my kind.

Hon. PF Members: Which kind?

Mr Nkombo: Dr Kaunda is still alive. So, you can go and ask him …

Mr Mutale: Iye!

Mr Nkombo: … how difficult Tongas are to subdue.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: We are extremely difficult to subdue.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Madam, this is not an issue of never ruling or ruling. My point is that there is a need for the PF …

Interruptions

Hon. PF Members: Order!

Mr Sikazwe: Nkala pansi, iwe!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, Hon. Nkombo.

You have exhausted your time.

Mr Mbulakulima (Milenge): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this rare opportunity to debate this Motion. I realise its importance and believe that it is a very hot issue. However, I think that we can still reconcile our positions on it.

Madam Speaker, as a country, we need to move forward. This Motion is important because the people of Zambia saw it fit to give the Head of State the powers to re-align, create and abolish ministries, subject to the approval of the hon. Members of this House. This provision is in the Constitution.

Madam Speaker, the President sits on a pyramid and sees many things that we, the ordinary people, may not see. In my wisdom, I do not think that the President would create ministries just for the sake of creating them. He must have seen the need for them in the country. The main purpose of creating ministries is to deliver services in an effective and efficient manner.

Mr Ngulube: That is all!

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, a Cabinet that is too small is as bad as one that is too large. So, we need to strike a reasonable balance between the two extremes. We must realise that it is the Cabinet that superintends over the affairs of the nation and we should not underestimate that fact. The responsibility of running the Government rests on the shoulders of the Cabinet. So, if we have a Cabinet that is too small, there will be no efficiency in the discharge of national affairs.

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: Equally, if we have a Cabinet that is too big, there will be no efficiency.

Madam Speaker, we need to take some factors into account. Personally, I think that factors like population size come into play. The first post-Independence Cabinet had eighteen hon. Ministers, although two were Ministers of State. That was the case from 1964 to 1970, during which time the population of this country was around 3 million. Today, the population is 15 million. Therefore, we are justified in expanding the Cabinet.

Madam Speaker, we deliver services to the people by growing the economy. From 1964 to 1970, the Cabinet superintended over a gross domestic product (GDP) of K1 billion. Today’s GDP is between K50 billion and K60 billion. So, how can anyone thin that the same number of people can manage the two hugely different GDP sizes? I think that the time has come for us to review the situation. The size of the Cabinet has been adjusted upwards or downwards in the recent past. In fact, I think that the late former President, Mr Michael Sata, may his soul rest in peace, reduced the Cabinet to seventeen hon. Ministers, not nineteen. However, he quickly increased the number to twenty-two because he saw the need to effectively deliver services. Yes, we may compare ourselves to the United States of America (USA) and other countries, but we should realise that the USA has a federal system of government. So, most of the affairs of the country are managed at the level of the states. In Mozambique, there are twenty-three Cabinet Ministers and about eighteen hon. Deputy Ministers. I googled that before coming here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Speaker, our current Constitution does not provide for Deputy Ministers. So, if we are not careful, we may end up trapping ourselves into failing to provide services to the people of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I also believe that, as we constitute the Cabinet, some considerations should be put in a global perspective. From Independence to the 1980s, we were restricted to our own system here, in Africa, but that has now changed. The issues of conflict management, which were not part of our management system then, are now. This world was divided into two by two super powers, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) and the USA. As Africa and Zambia, in particular, we were on the periphery. However, today, we are expected to participate in world affairs. So, we cannot afford to have a lean Cabinet and effectively participate in global issues.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mbulakulima: Unless you want us to fall behind.

Madam Speaker, these are real issues. How much attention do we pay, for example, to environmental issues? They are not in our vocabulary, yet it is our responsibility to participate in efforts to protect our environment. So, the execution of these additional functions is unavoidable for the country, hence the increase in the number of ministries.

Madam Speaker, we have had very little regional integration efforts but, today, this is a real topic. Regional and global integration has brought its own burdens and responsibilities among Third-World countries. For example, in the past, foreign affairs used to be all about political systems. Today, they also involve value-addition and economic development. So, many things have changed and we cannot remain where we were. We are also talking about industrialisation. How will we industrialise if we do not grow? These are the reasons for the President’s decision to create more ministries. It was not done in vain.

Madam Speaker, some ministries have been separated or re-aligned in order to enhance efficiency. Look at the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, for instance. Why did we lump the water resource management function with that of energy when the two are both very critical challenges for the country? All of us, Members of Parliament, are crying for access to clean water in our respective constituencies. However, how can we put the two portfolios in one ministry and expect it to run properly? So, the re-alignment of the two functions to separate ministries is a welcome move.

Madam Speaker, one of my colleagues has said that we will not build houses. However, with a housing deficit of 3 million houses in this country, I think that time has come for us to face this challenge and create a ministry that will be able to tackle it. So, the separation and realignment of ministries is not in vain. For example, it is not good to have land and environmental issues lumped in one ministry. Environmental issues should be handled by a different ministry. All over the world, people are making efforts to look after the environment. In terms of infrastructure, just road infrastructure is already too big to be put together with development of other infrastructure under one ministry. It becomes very difficult to administer. So, the separation of road infrastructure from other infrastructure will enhance efficiency in the running of this country.

Madam Speaker, as a Christian Nation, there is a need for us to have a stand-alone ministry for religious affairs. I have looked at the portfolio functions of the proposed ministry and there is one function concerning inter-denominational dialogue. I think that dialogue should not only be among political parties, but also among the churches to promote harmony in the country. This ministry can facilitate that. The ministry will also address moral degradation in our country. I think that our national values, principles and ethics are very important and must be promoted by this ministry.

Madam Speaker, without being controversial, let me say that this Motion moved by Her Honour the Vice-President is welcome and needs to be supported by all well-meaning Zambians.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Madam, for affording me this opportunity to participate in the debate on this important Motion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, I urge you to try to avoid repeating what others have already said and, if possible, conclude your debates before the end of the twenty minutes so that more people can debate.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Madam Speaker, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate this Motion.

Madam Speaker, when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was in Government, the Patriotic Front (PF) used to sing the song of how bloated the Government was and how that led to a lot of wastage of public resources. We also heard about how the PF would, upon coming to power, reduce the size of the Cabinet. Today, the Zambian economy is moaning and the hon. Minister of Finance has begged for sympathy from Zambians over the ailing economy. So, the problem I have with this Motion moved by Her Honour the Vice-President is that it proposes actions that are contrary to what the hon. Minister of Finance said the other day.

Madam Speaker, we need to do some self-assessment. First and foremost, have the current ministries failed to function? If so, is it because of the technocrats who are inefficient in executing their duties? Is it only by expanding that we can create efficiency? Further, how urgent is the need, if any, to create these ministries? If we were to come up with a referendum on the creation of these ministries what would the Zambian people say? Would it pass?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, currently, we need more cost-saving measures and an overhaul of many structures, but that has been ignored completely. We have a Constitution, about which our colleagues on the right boasted. However, today, District Commissioners (DCs) are still in office, yet there is no provision for them in the Constitution. That is money we could have saved.

Ms Mwashingwele: Fire them all.

Mr Muchima: Today, the Government wants to create a ministry for religious affairs, but we have not had religious problems in this country and our churches answer directly to God.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: They do not need any Government Minister because they have their own ministers. Why does the Government want to bring confusion? Divisions are emerging among churches today because of political interference, with some churches supporting the PF, some, the United Party for National Development (UPND) and others, the MMD. We should not interfere with what God has made. So, let us leave the churches alone.

Madam Speaker, we can understand what used to happen during the days of President Kaunda because then not many people were educated. We were sampling different governance styles to see which would work best. Today, unfortunately, we are failing to sustain the decisions we made. Maybe, we are supposed to engage some researchers to make some decisions for us. You can engage the universities on matters like this one so that they help us re-align the ministries. We should not change ministries every day or create new ones just because we want to appoint some people, yet we are failing to meet the current wage bill.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, people used to get paid as early as the 15^th of each month. Today, the 27^th of this month, Government workers have not been paid.

Madam Speaker, the Government has asked Zambians to bear with it. How can they do so when the Government has enough money to create more ministerial positions? So, it should begin by paying people on time, then, move on to creating new portfolios.

Hon. Opposition Member: We are now getting paid on the 40^th of the month.

Mr Muchima: What will Zambians lose if we do not create the Ministry of Religion and National Guidance?

Hon. Opposition Members: Nothing!

Mr Muchima: What value will it add to service delivery?

Madam Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President, the Secretary to the Cabinet and the technocrats in the ministries are already enough. Why does this Government want to recruit more politicians? What value will they add? If the Government evaluates the jobs that the current Public Service workers are doing, it will see where it can make savings.

Madam Speaker, we should be modest. Let us learn from Tanzania, whose President has opted to start travelling economy class because he wants to save. Additionally, Government officers there drive small Toyota Corollas. Their President is leading by example.

Madam Speaker, we were glad when we saw that the Constitution had no provision for Deputy Ministers, as we thought that would lead to our making some savings. We were also expecting that the DCs, who are in their offices illegally, would be removed so that we make savings.

Madam Speaker, as I speak, most projects have stalled because there is no money in the Treasury. So, where will we get the money for the portfolios we are creating? I need my secondary school and the road in Ikeleng’i to be finished. The two projects were started a long time ago, but they have not been completed because the Government is saying that it does not have money. How come, there is money to create these ministries? Is there any logic in this?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Ms Mwashingwele: Shame!

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, let us emulate best governance practices and lead by example. I have noticed a trend in the appointments of boards. We have a tendency to appease in Zambia. For example, some boards consist of cadres that have no relevance to the service offered by the boards. Additionally, the boards are supposed to be superior to hon. Ministers and Permanent Secretaries, yet uneducated people are appointed to them simply because they gave political support to the appointing authority. Yes, some cadres who are qualified can be appointed.

Madam Speakers, we should evaluate Zambia against developing countries. Let us compete with those countries. We should not keep the status quo just because it is what happened in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government. Let us change with the times ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: ... and bring prudent management into this economy.

Mr Nkombo: Hanjika!

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance spoke very well the other day and I listened to him with sympathy. He was my colleague in the MMD, but he is now in the Government managing its finances. So, he deserved my sympathy. However, today, I regret to hear that there will be a big setback where there was some progress because of what Her Honour the Vice-President wants. It is a total contradiction.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Deurmekaar.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, as a businessman, I know about business. Let us take stock of ourselves and this economy so that we see where the wastage is. Already, this is part of the wastage.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: There will be new expenses on vehicles, salaries and staff. Yes, like I heard somebody say, this is employment creation. However, let us create employment in a prudent manner. We should look at the balance sheet which, as presented by the hon. Minister, is in the negatives. I wonder why we should add more negatives to it.

Madam Speaker, we have no difficulties in terms of guidance. Zambia has been independent for fifty-two years now. So, we know our needs.

Madam Speaker, the people who benefited from subsidies no longer do and the infrastructure that the Government is talking about is only in some corners of the country. I do not see any infrastructure in my constituency.

Mr Nkombo: One Zambia, one side.

Mr Muchima: It is one-sided. We want a complete overhaul. The hon. Minister of Finance should tour the whole country. He would cry if he saw what Ikeleng’i looks like because there is nothing happening in that place. We need to put more money in that area than in creating ministries. The money that is supposed to be paid to the hon. Cabinet Minister who will be in charge of that ministry can be spent on repairing washed-away bridges and schools whose roofs were blown off. For five years, I have reminded this Government about those things, yet nothing has been done. So, we would appreciate if that money was diverted to those projects. That road you promised to tar …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Address the Chair.

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, I wish to remind Her Honour the Vice-President, who happens to be my sister, …

Mr Nkombo: Jimbe Road!

Mr Muchima: … that we need the Jimbe Road to be completed. That is the story we want to hear in this House, not what is being said today.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Muchima: Mwaiche wandi, Kambwili, tekanya.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Madam Speaker, this nation needs prudent managers. We need to be serious in whatever we do and we all need to be very responsible. We can differ politically but, economically, we must be united. Let us do things that everyone will appreciate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Madam, I do not support this Motion and I urge Her Honour the Vice-President to reconsider this decision.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Jamba (Mwembezhi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the Floor. I will restrict my debate to the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, when His Excellency the President addressed this Parliament on this topic, he laughed and said that even his Government was not very comfortable about it.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam, there are many portfolio functions that are supposed to be discussed under this ministry. Let me start with that of Christian Affairs.

Mr Mwale: Religious!

Mr Jamba: Madam, I am talking about portfolios. The hon. Minister can check that out.

Madam, in my view, Christian Affairs was supposed to be an agenda of the Council of Churches in Zambia (CCZ). The CCZ could look at political affairs.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, the Interdenominational Dialogue function was also supposed to be under the CCZ so that the institution could look at political dialogue among the political parties.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, from time immemorial, whenever the Church and the Government met, there has been compromise. So, as a Seventh-day Adventist (SDA), I am comfortable with the proposed creation of the other ministries, but not the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. It should be left out. We all know that if we combine religious and political affairs, there will be a tendency to compromise and the Church will fail to function as the salt of the nation.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: If an hon. Minister is appointed to oversee the Church, it will not make sense because he or she is actually supposed to be overseen by the Church.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate His Excellency the President on showing the desire to worship God and, since he has done that, he should let the gospel ministers to teach values to the people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Jamba: Let me try to make my point clear. As a politician whose language is not that good, what values can I offer to a gospel minister?

Ms Kalima: Ndiye pamene wa yamba!

Laughter

Mr Jamba: Madam Speaker, I congratulate the President on coming up with the new ministries, except for the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. On that one, I believe that we should let the religious establishment take care of religious issues in the country. In Zambia, we have Muslims, Hindus and Christians. So, if the one who is put in charge of the ministry is a Christian, what will happen? Will there not be total confusion? So, it is better to let organisations like the Islamic Supreme Council of Zambia (ISCZ), the Evangelical Council of Zambia (ECZ) and the CCZ regulate themselves. If the President’s desire to worship is emulated by everyone, the morals we are talking about here will automatically take root.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu (Chama South): Madam Speaker, from the outset, I have to state that I am in total support of this Motion for the reasons I will articulate below.

Madam Speaker, regarding the proposed creation of the Ministry of Water Development, Sanitation and Environmental Protection, in this House, we all agree that we are in need of water. I remember that in our maiden speeches, not a single hon. Member of Parliament omitted talking about the water problems in their areas. With the El Niño weather patterns affecting the country and the world at large, water is becoming a scarce resource. Therefore, it needs specialised management. Let us also not forget that proper and efficient water delivery systems will lead to good sanitation, which has a multiplier effect on our economy. If we have good sanitation, we will have fewer diseases in our communities and that will, in turn, bring our hospital bills down. I do not have the statistics, but you can agree with me that, being a tropical country, Zambia is prone to water-borne diseases. If we got the statistics from the Ministry of Health, they would show that 30 to 40 per cent of our expenditure on health goes to the treatment and management of water-borne diseases. So, by creating the ministry, we will be able to save.

Madam Speaker, when His Excellency made what I would call a comprehensive speech in this august House in which he talked about a multi-sectoral approach to economic development anchored on economic diversification. He also cited agriculture as the pillar to this diversification. In that regard, we cannot talk about agriculture without talking about water. So, to me, the argument about saving does not hold water.

Madam Speaker, let me come to the proposed creation of the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development, whose portfolios I have considered. To a layman, when we talk about housing, it is all about where we sleep, that is, shelter. However, ‘housing’ is the entire system that facilitates proper human habitation. In fact, the economy can benefit from housing. I say so because the technical definition of housing includes all the services associated with the provision of housing. That is why the list of statutory bodies under the proposed Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development includes the Road Development Agency (RDA).

Madam Speaker, many employment opportunities will be created by the creation of the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development. For example, there will be a need for bricklayers, and suppliers of roofing sheets and cement, which will be sourced locally. It is also that ministry that we develop the infrastructure for which the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i is crying.

Madam Speaker, sociologists will agree with me that shelter comes second on Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, second only to physiological needs. The hon. Member for Mwembezhi needs to eat first. In cases in which we have heard of people stealing food, the explanation has been that they were hungry. It is after they eat ‒

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Can you, please, stick to the Motion and avoid mentioning other hon. Members in your debate. I know that we are all still learning the etiquette of the House, but try to remember the guidance given previously.

You may continue.

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, thank you for the guidance.

Madam, I was saying that housing is second only to physiological needs. We all need housing, and not the kind of housing that is only found in Mazabuka or Lusaka. Let us look at our entire population and ask what percentage of it has decent housing. In Chama South, 90 or 95 per cent of the people live in mud-and-pole houses.

Madam Speaker, the reason for creating the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure is so that the Government can provide Zambians with decent housing. As I have said, that will also contribute to economic recovery.

Madam Speaker, we cannot be prevented from planning by the state of the economy, which is not affected by internal factors only. We know that the economy has been affected by external factors, particularly, due to our overdependence on copper whose prices have fallen. However, we should not stop planning just because these factors are affecting our economy. What if copper prices appreciated the next day?

Madam Speaker, in an earlier contribution, I referred to the importance of land. Let me qualify the separation of the Lands and Environmental Protection functions. Earlier, I challenged all hon. Members in this august House to point at anything that did not come from land ...

Mr Nkombo: Air.

Mr Mung’andu: ... and bet my seat in this House.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Aeroplanes, the food we eat, we and almost everything comes from land. We eat food from the land and to the land we return.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: Therefore, the management of that resource is very important and needs to be separated from other portfolios so that there is efficiency in the delivery of land services to Zambians. Again, you will note that the portfolio functions are well defined.

Madam Speaker, in the past, the energy and water sectors were combined because it was assumed that you cannot have electricity without water. However, ideas are fluid. As time moves, ideas evolve. So, it is now time the Energy and Water Development portfolios were separated because water needs special attention.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: Madam Speaker, in the energy sector, the Government wants to concentrate on more innovative ways of alleviating the energy shortage the country is experiencing. No wonder, the portfolios and statutory bodies falling under the proposed Ministry of Energy include the Energy Regulation Board (ERB), Kariba North Bank (KNB), Rural Electrification Authority (REA) and the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO). The re-alignment of these institutions will enhance efficiency in their supervision and co-ordination. Currently, one hon. Minister superintends over thirty institutions, which breeds inefficiency.

Madam Speaker, coming to the issue of cost, which our colleagues keep on mentioning, let us be realistic. How many Deputy Ministers did we have in the past? The hon. Members on the left know that our Constitution has limited the number of Ministers to thirty. That is a huge saving if you do a cost-benefit analysis. However, we should not compromise service delivery because of cost.

Mr Lihefu: Finally!

Mr Mung’andu: Otherwise, we will end up failing to deliver services to the people.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: I, therefore, ‒

Hon. UPND Member: In conclusion.

Mr Mung’andu: I do not want to conclude, Madam Speaker. I still have time.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: I, therefore, urge our colleagues to look at the reasoning behind the proposed separation of the ministries. We are merely separating the functions even though we are calling them new ministries. We are not looking at the cost per se.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: We are looking at efficiency in service delivery. If the people of Mapatizya were not crying for water, those in Chama South are because it has become a scarce resource as rivers have dried up. Therefore, we need a ministry that will be dedicated to providing water to the people of Chama South.

Madam Speaker, I am slowly learning the reason some people or political parties campaigned against the enhancement of people’s right to access to water.

Interruptions

Mr Mung’andu: They do not want our people to have clean drinking water and good health.

Madam, the Local Government function has been properly re-aligned, as there will now be both urban and regional planning. The ministry will administer alcohol levies.

Laughter

Mr Mung’andu: The Ministry of Local Government will continue with most of its functions. What has been removed is the technical aspect of infrastructure development. The Housing function has not been effectively administered under the ministry because it needs specialised skills both in planning and in implementation. As the Patriotic Front (PF), we approved the Decentralisation Policy, which simply means that some functions will be discharged by the local authorities. The hon. Members of this august House may be aware that there are some road projects that are directly supervised by local authorities. The construction of almost all the district or urban roads is supervised by the local authorities. That takes development closer to the people. The people must be involved in planning. The case is the same in housing. Hon. Members know that most councils allocate plots without planning for road works, and water and sanitation. I remember questions being asked on such issues. After people build, they start sinking septic tanks and boreholes anywhere. Sometimes, one family will put their septic tank next to the neighbours’ borehole. So, to avoid such things, the working PF Government …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mung’andu: … has decided to come up with a ministry that will focus on water, sanitation and environmental protection, which will make it easy for hon. Members of Parliament to monitor the progress of projects, as they will be implemented by the local authorities.

Madam Speaker, I urge the hon. Members on the other side of the House to support this well-thought-out and articulated Motion.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumayi (Chavuma): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate. As a Back Bencher, I stand to oppose the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumayi: Madam Speaker, if I heard Her Honour the Vice-President correctly, she talked about accelerated development as the reason for the creation, re-alignment and abolition of some ministries. However, a week ago, a Motion on accelerated development was rejected by my colleagues on the right. So, I do not know what kind of accelerated development they are talking about.

Madam Speaker, the people of Zambia expect us, as Members of Parliament, to do what is right for them. I know we come from different political parties, but our people still expect us to do what is good for the common man. It is impossible for me, the Member of Parliament for Chavuma, to stand in this House and support the Motion when I know that my people are suffering.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumayi: It would only have been prudent for me to support this Motion if the Government had paid the University of Zambia (UNZA) students their allowances or if the retirees had received their money.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumayi: Madam, it would only have been prudent for me to support this Motion if the Government had reduced fuel prices.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lumayi: Madam Speaker, today, we cannot meet our country’s developmental challenges because of a lack of resources, yet the Government wants to spend money on other things. It is painful to have new ministries when Chavuma Constituency has not received the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Madam Speaker, we, on the left, and some colleagues on the right urged Her Honour the Vice-President to regulate the movement of vehicles at night to reduce accidents, but we received a negative response from the Government. Given that lately we have experienced many accidents in our country, it is very difficult for me to support a Motion proposing the creation of a ministry for religious affairs and national guidance. Further, we do not know the intention ‘behind this Minister’.

Laughter

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

You should say ‘behind the creation of the ministry’, not “… of the Minister.”

Mr Lumayi: Madam Speaker, the Government established the Council of Churches in Zambia (CCZ) to look into the legal aspects. However, the country has not seen any meaningful results from those comrades.

Hon. Government Members: Which comrades?

Mr Lumayi: Madam Speaker, the people of this country contribute money towards that big church, I do not know what it is called.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

You are losing all of us. We really do not know what you are talking about.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Firstly, withdraw the word ‘comrades’ and, then, try to focus on the Motion.

Mr Lumayi: Madam Speaker, I withdraw the statement.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

I asked you to withdraw the word ‘comrades’.

Mr Lumayi: Madam, I withdraw the word ‘comrades’ and replace it with the word ‘colleagues’.

Madam Speaker, I do not support the creation of the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs, which has interdenominational dialogue as one of its portfolio functions, when I know that there are many churches in this country that believe in God, but have different doctrines. If the ministry is created, what will the Christians and churches do with it? The people of Zambia want to know whether there is a hidden agenda behind the creation of this ministry. The people of Chavuma want to know why it is being created. They are especially curious because they have seen many road accidents happen since the creation of ministries was announced.

Laughter

Mr Lumayi: Madam, we only have one God in heaven and we want all the people of Zambia to pay homage to him. We do not want to have a Minister who will sanction or impose religion and others in this country. Therefore, I strongly oppose the creation of the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs.

Madam Speaker, it will be very uncomfortable for the people of Zambia to hear that I supported the creation of the Ministry of Works and Supply whose functions, among others, will include the control of Government transport, evaluation of Government property, insuring Government property, office accommodation, maintenance services and State functions. I have a problem supporting this Motion on the Floor of the House.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Lumayi: Madam Speaker, I know that our vote here is by secret ballot. So, I request my friends on the right to vote with us on the left so that our people can know that their hon. Members of Parliament are working for the public interest. Until we solve the problems this country is facing, we cannot approve the creation of new ministries.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Madam Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add the voice of the people of Nalikwanda to the debate.

First of all, Madam, let me appreciate Her Honour the Vice-President’s aspiration in moving this Motion, the aspiration of the President.

Madam Speaker, we are here to debate a prerogative of the President. Having been in this House for quite some time, we know that every President who comes …

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[MADAM FIRST DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that the abolition, establishment and re-alignment of Government ministries and departments is the prerogative of the President. In fact, every President in our Republic has had a go at this activity. So, I think that, as Members of Parliament, our role is to assist the highest office in the land to manage our country better. By that, I mean better management of our country for effective service delivery and overall national development.

Madam Speaker, we are fifty-two years into our Independence and, in my view, we should, at this point, have discovered a lasting institutional structure for our Government ministries because they are very essential to our overall national development aspirations. Other than that, they are the instruments for the efficient and effective delivery of services to our people. Therefore, the Office of President must be assisted in that regard.

Madam, in my view, our country needs only eighteen portfolio ministries, which must be cast in stone and be responsible for finance, education, foreign affairs, agriculture, defence, health, commerce and industry, home affairs, local government, energy and environment, justice, mines, communication and information, tourism, works and supply, labour and national development planning.

Interruptions

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I think time has come for us, as a nation, to identify the important sectors and service delivery systems, and turn them into ministries. That way, any President who comes into office will have to respect that arrangement because that would be a national decision. We would have decided how the country would be governed better like it has been the case in some countries. For example, the United States of America (USA) has done that.

Madam, I think that, fifty-two years into our Independence, this House must begin to assist the Presidency in this challenging task of establishing ministries.

Madam Speaker, in my view, the eighteen portfolio ministries I proposed should be our way forward in the management of our country. Anything more or less is purely for appeasement, ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: ... and a response to the intense patronage for jobs that we cultivate, as a country, which is not right. When the President goes beyond what I have recommended, then, he should play the song by Professor Chishala titled Common Man. I play it every day and I hope that our colleagues in this House can also buy that song. I say so because every ministry that is created is a cost on the Treasury. Therefore, there must be a very serious justification for the creation of any ministry.

Madam Speaker, the current state of our economy is worrying. We are a wheelbarrow-pushing economy.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, I challenge my colleagues in this House to go to Soweto Market and Intercity Bus Terminus, like I do almost every week, so that they see youths pushing wheelbarrows from Soweto Market to Matero, Chawama and, sometimes, Chilanga. Of what benefit is a ministry to those boys? If it has no bearing on improving the quality of life of an individual, then, that ministry is not worth establishing. We can slot ...

Ms Phiri: You were once an hon. Minister.

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order, hon. Member for Kanyama.

Prof. Lungwangwa: ... the various portfolios of the proposed ministry in the existing ministries as departments. I think that is the way to go if we are to have a country that is efficiently and effectively managed.

Madam Speaker, I now want to talk about two ministries in particular, starting with the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. I have no problem with our colleague, the hon. Minister there, whom I have known since the seventies at the University of Zambia (UNZA) when we were students. However, I have a problem with the ministry because, firstly, national guidance is synonymous with indoctrination.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam Speaker, in a democracy, we do not indoctrinate. Maybe, some of our colleagues in this House are too young to know, having been born in the 1970s and 1980s, and do not, therefore, know this.

Mr Nkombo: Some were born in the nineties.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Those of us who experienced life under our First President’s regime or governance know how bitter it is to have a Department of National Guidance. It was there, but it became a talking shop where people were employed specifically to talk about the so-called national values which, to a large extent, was an indoctrination strategy that we do not need.

Mr Nkombo: No, we do not.

Prof. Lungwangwa: In a democracy like ours, I think the guiding principle should be that of getting the Government off the back of citizens to enhance our freedoms, as individuals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam, after our 1991 change to democratic multi-partyism and economic liberalisation, we also changed our school curriculum and introduced civic education from Grade 8 to Grade 12. At the primary school level, we introduced social development studies, as a precursor to the teaching of civic education. We even introduced a degree programme for civic education teachers at the University of Zambia (UNZA). So, we already have a system in place for enculturating our young into the national ethos (values, ethics and beliefs). We do not need an umbrella national guidance system. This idea is synonymous with socialist and communist thinking. It is not compatible with our free democratic dispensation. Apart from that, our nation now has a developed media, such as newspapers, television and radio through which our people can critically debate national values, beliefs and laws. So, we do not need a Government ministry dedicated to national guidance.

Madam, in the development of Western democracies, there has been a clear separation of the State from the Church. The Church should not be brought into the problems of the State or governance, but be left to be the mirror through which those who govern see themselves. That being the case, my judgment is that we do not need the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. It is just a waste of our meagre resources. The money that will go into that ministry, in terms of staffing, equipment and other costs can go a long way in creating jobs for the boys who push wheelbarrows at Soweto Market. I think, morally, this proposal is not right.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Coming to the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development, we are creating a monster ministry, if we consider that its portfolio functions will include roads, housing, railway and marine. We all know that a ministry with a bloated set of portfolio functions will be extremely inefficient. That is what this ministry will be. No matter what we may say, it will not be efficient. I also do not think that it is necessary, in the spirit of better management of our country, for us to establish systems or structures that will be a waste of our resources without contributing effectively to better management and delivery of various services in our nation. The various portfolio functions proposed for this ministry are better placed under various other ministries. For example, the Ministry of Works and Supply has been administering infrastructure development and we have to be convinced on what has gone wrong with that arrangement for us to create a stand-alone monster Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development. I reiterate that we do not need it.

Ms Lubezhi: Correct!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam, the proposed Ministry of Works and Supply, which has been deprived of its essential function, namely overall supervision of infrastructure development, will, like my colleagues have stated, become a mere department.

Madam Speaker, the challenge that we have is better management of our country and I do not think that the proposed ministries will contribute to that. Instead, they will create a lot of inefficiencies and, to a large extent, ineffectiveness. It is the Civil Service that ensures better management of the country, not hon. Ministers. So, we must find the best way of empowering civil servants with the skills, professionalism, commitment to work and efficiency. Hon. Ministers are supervisors at the policy level. Let us learn from President Uhuru Kenyatta, who has stated that Kenya, unlike Uganda, did not rely on donor support for its national budget because it has put the right people in the right positions ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and established the right institutions.

Mr Ngulube: Question!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Madam, if we established the right institutions and streamlined the various ministries to make them more effective and focused, and employed the right people to manage them, we would be able to better manage our country, deliver services and bring about development. In short, I agree with my colleagues on this side in opposing these proposals, which will be a drain on our meagre resources.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. C. Mumba (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President for moving the Motion that we are debating on the Floor of the House.

Madam, let me start by acknowledging most of the issues and concerns that my colleagues who spoke before me have raised on the ministries that have been proposed for creation.

Madam Speaker, I took some time to investigate what really happens when one creates a new ministry and what I discovered is that it is simply a re-arrangement of some of the functions that a particular ministry has been discharging. Unfortunately, there has been no output from the ministries that is measurable enough to change the lives of Zambians. That is the reason such kind of ideas are arising.

Madam, I fully understand our economic challenges, especially the slow growth rate of our economy, which has affected job creation. However, that does not mean that we should blind ourselves to new realities and ideas that can produce the 1 million jobs we want to create.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. C. Mumba: Madam Speaker, it would not help to seat back and refuse to do anything because of the economic situation in which we are. I totally disagree with that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. C. Mumba: I think that it is important to look at where we are coming from, where we are and where we intend to go.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Sikazwe: That is the way.

Mr A. C. Mumba: We seat back and say we cannot do anything to grow the economy or improve service delivery because our copper revenues have dwindled. Further, if you look at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, which was mandated to build houses, you will discover that it concentrates more on building roads than on housing, thereby collapsing our mortgage system, which is very vital to the growth of our financial capacity, as a country. So, how do we deal with all these complex issues that surround our economy because of globalisation? Of course, mistakes have been made in the past and some decisions were made that may not have supported our economy. However, every economy in the world that produces commodities is affected. Whether the country over-spent or over-borrowed does not matter. The question is: How do they get out of the situation?

Hon. UPND Members: Ask the PF.

Mr A. C. Mumba: I have carefully looked …

Mr Kabanda: Ema professor, aba.

Mr A. C. Mumba: … at some of the countries that we are talking about and realised that we should be careful when comparing other countries with Zambia. One cannot compare a pig and a cow just because both are meat. They are not the same. Our circumstances, as a country, are totally unique and we are underdeveloped in many areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr A. C. Mumba: We have not even explored 50 per cent of our mineral resources.

Mr Ngulube: Hammer, hammer!

Mr A. C. Mumba: We do not even have systems for monitoring how our diamonds or gold are mined.

Interruptions

Mr A. C. Mumba: So, why should we be scared of coming up with strategies that will develop this country? We should also accept the fact that the solutions to the challenges that we face will not end up with us only. So, we must create a pathway in which we can solve some of these problems.

Madam Speaker, I am very passionate about housing and I spoke about it even in my maiden speech. I can challenge the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to tell me how many houses it has built in the last five years or where the money meant for that has gone.

Hon. UPND Members: Ask the PF.

Mr A. C. Mumba: I can go to the Zambia National Building Society (ZNBS) ‒

It is not …

Interruptions

Mr A. C. Mumba: … only those who work for the Zambia Telecommunications (ZAMTEL) Company Limited or Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) who should be entitled to a mortgage, but also the person who works for Pick n Pay or Shoprite, or a small or medium entrepreneur (SME).

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. C. Mumba: However, that will only happen if we have a system in place that can build the houses. We should not be frightened because of the cost implications.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr A. C. Mumba: Any political decision will have an effect on the economy.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr A. C. Mumba: Equally, any economic decision you make ‒

Today, we are talking about subsidies and we have focused only on the fuel subsidies. If you go to the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) and get a loan at 12 per cent interest and, later, go to Finance Bank Zambia Limited (FBZL) or Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) and get a similar loan at 38 per cent, it means that the first loan was subsidised by more than 20 per cent. Unfortunately, nobody is talking about that. These are some of the new areas that we need to start thinking about …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. C. Mumba: … in trying to balance our economy.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr A. C. Mumba: Madam Speaker, I do not know how many water utility companies we have. However, five years ago, millions of dollars were pumped into the water and sanitation programme under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, and various documents were signed. Today, do we really have an account of what actually happened? When His Excellency the President went to France, he managed to sign a memorandum of understanding (MoU) that resulted in Mulonga Water and Sewerage Company, in Mufulira, where I come from, receiving about €50 million. That MoU is the first of its kind since 1986. Unfortunately, to date, the company is still conducting feasibility studies. How does a company sit back and do nothing …

Interruptions

Mr A. C. Mumba: … when the money is sitting idly because somebody is still doing feasibility studies?

Interruptions

Mr A. C. Mumba: It goes back to the output and efficiency about which I talked.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr A. C. Mumba: So, when we discuss some of these issues, as much as we are entitled to our opinions, it is also important that we look at the holistic view. When I look at these kinds of inefficiencies, I understand why there should be a ministry under which these institutions should fall …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. C. Mumba: … so that there is an hon. Minister who can stand in front of you to tell us what is happening because we have many such questions to ask. Those questions will not end until we leave this House. It is also my responsibility, as somebody who has been privileged by this country to learn about various economic activities around the world, to add my voice and add it genuinely to the discourse on issues that affect our country.

Madam Speaker, I have heard some hon. Colleagues say that the re-alignment of some ministries will leave the Ministry of Works and Supply with no significant portfolio. However, the ministry has a mandate as important as building roads that it has not been discharging for a long time, namely maintenance. The ministry has not maintained any road, but it is always advertising new road projects. I hope that it has now been freed up a little to be able to put more effort into the maintenance of public buildings and roads while another ministry concentrates on the construction of the same. The same ministry cannot both build and maintain.

Hon. Government members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr A. C. Mumba: Without wasting much of your time, Madam Speaker, I am in full support …

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. C. Mumba: … of the proposed creation of the ministries. Going forward, we should continue to look at how best we can separate ministries so that we are able …

Mr Samakayi: Ni job seeking, iyo.

Mr A. C. Mumba: … to get the best output, which will create the best opportunities for Zambians.

Mr Kabanda: Ni Independent, uyu. Job seeking yakwisa?

Mr A. C. Mumba: Even ministries like Tourism and Arts should be separated so that our artists can get full benefits from their artistic works. Currently, art is hidden into the ministry structure. The ministry has only focused on promoting tourism. Everywhere they go in the world, people are talking about tourism, but no one is talking about the arts.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, looking at the time, if we continue repeating ourselves, we will not conclude this matter. I think we all want to get on with this Motion.

Mr Ngulube: Yes!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: So, I ask the three hon. Members yet to debate to be brief.

Mr Kabanda: Kusalulafye!

Mr Kafwaya (Lunte): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Motion. Even without your guidance, I would not have taken too much of your time because I only have two thoughts I want to share with the House concerning this Motion.

Madam, I thank Her Honour the Vice-President, Madam Inonge Mutukwa Wina, for moving the Motion.

Madam, first and foremost, it is very difficult to forgive some people who come to this House to make statements that are conceptually incorrect when they are the ones who should guide new hon. Members of this House. I think that to remain dogmatic and refuse to be pragmatic in this era is criminal not only politically, but also economically. There is no way we can say that we want to create a system that cannot be changed when the world changes every day.

Madam, you have guided very well against dragging other hon. Members into our debates. I am sorry that I did that, but it was not my intention to make reference to the hon. Member who advocated the maintenance of the institutional status quo. It was felt that the Ministry of Energy and Water Development should not be separated because the two core portfolios were seen to be inextricably linked. However, today, we are encouraging the hon. Minister Energy to look at alternative sources of energy. Therefore, it is imperative that the two are separated.

Madam Speaker, when you go to Chalala or any of the Meanwood residential areas, you will find beautiful houses that have been built there, none of which is connected to the sewer system. All of them have septic tanks. What will happen in those areas in the next twenty to thirty years? There will be water pollution, and we draw the water we consume from that water table. Therefore, in my view, it is necessary to segregate the management of water from energy and add the water aspect of management to sanitation.

Madam Speaker, let me comment on the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. In fact, that was my first thought.

Madam Speaker, I read Paulo Freire’s book titled “The Pedagogy of the Oppressed”, which was recommended to me by Prof. Lungwangwa. In the book, I came across this statement: “There is no recognition of humanisation without the recognition of dehumanisation.” Therefore, when we talk about this ministry, we must recognise the fact that there is evil in the world. In fact, we should not be surprised that evil men and women may be in the forefront of opposing the creation of the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer! Tell them!

Mr Kafwaya: Otherwise, how else would you, even in your imagination, find decency in the idea of not supporting a ministry that is meant to promote values and the Christianity we profess? On this one, I strongly support the Motion.

Madam Speaker, we have heard many reasons for us not to create new ministries with the bulk of them centring on the current economic situation. In 2007 to 2009, we experienced the global economic crunch. In 2009, Mr Obama, the President of the United States of America (USA), went to Congress to lobby support for bailout packages aimed at making Americans start spending again. The rationale was that spending stimulates an economy. So, I do not support austerity measures because they stagnate growth.

Madam, a week or two ago, the hon. Minister of Finance spoke to this House about what he called the pillars to the revival of our economy. If you reflect on those pillars properly, you will see that they will assist this country to mobilise sufficient resources for our people to continue to spend so that we can adequately support the new ministries and deliver quality services to our people.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: I commend you, hon. Member, for being brief.

Amb. Malanji (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Lungu, and Her Honour the Vice-President, Mrs Inonge Wina, have been given the mandate to run this country for five years.

Madam Speaker, the Tongas say, “Utatumi muntu utafwide mpeyo kukutula mulilo.”

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: What is the meaning?

Amb. Malanji: The meaning is, “Do not send somebody who is not feeling cold to make fire”. Further, the Bembas say, “Ulelila tabamucheba kukanwa.”

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: What do you mean?

Amb. Malanji: Madam, like the previous debater said, we should be mindful of how we compare ‒

Interruptions

Amb. Malanji: Madam, the Bemba adage means that a person who is mourning or weeping should not be restrained. Normally, when people are mourning, they will say anything, including accusing others of being the cause of their loved ones’ death. The idea is to let them grieve without restraint.

Laughter

Amb. Malanji: Madam Speaker, austerity measures have limited application. The President has a vision for the ministries to be created.

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear! Ulelusa tabamucheba kukanwa.

Amb. Malanji: If we compare systems in developed countries with ours, then, we are wearing blinkers.

Ms Mulenga: Hear, hear!

Amb. Malanji: Can one hon. Member tell me who will require more labour between somebody who inherits a farm that has been cultivated several times and the one who is given virgin land.

Madam Speaker, if we go to Chililabombwe and Kasumbalesa Border Post, we will find a lot of infrastructure built under a public-private partnership (PPP) at no expense to the Government, but we are getting revenue from it. When you look at the ministries that are being introduced, such as the Ministry of Housing and Infrastructure Development, you will see that they have been used effectively in Malaysia, Thailand and South Africa, just nearby. In the President’s Speech to this House, he spoke a lot about the PPPs, and there are many investors who would come here and lend us a hand in building houses to which the Government would not contribute a ngwee. All that would be required from the Government is authentication by the stroke of a pen to drive the projects.

Mr Ngulube: Hear, hear!

Amb. Malanji: The mortgage system has now collapsed. Will we continue like this just because of something our friends in the United States (US) are doing? The U.S and the United Kingdom (UK) built houses years ago. All they are doing now is maintenance. So, we cannot follow their route on some issues.

Mr Ngulube: Ema neighbour, aba!

Laughter

Mr Jamba: Learned Counsel!

Amb. Malanji: Madam Speaker, at the expense of being repetitive, let me comment on the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. The different hon. Ministers who have served in the ministries responsible for general and higher education have seen many churches troop to their offices to ask for funding for new school projects. So, already, there is contact between the ministries and the churches. Do my colleagues on your left not think that interaction will be better co-ordinated by the new ministry? The ministry is not intended to be superior to the churches, but to co-ordinate …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Amb. Malanji: … issues that will take development even to those who have no access to Government doors.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Justice (Mr Lubinda): Madam Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for giving me the opportunity to debate this Motion. I assure you that I will be as brief as I can so that Her Honour the Vice-President can wind up her Motion.

Madam, let me remind the House that on 4^th May, 2016, this House passed the Ministers (Prescribed Number and Responsibilities) Act No. 26 of 2016, which had been scrutinised by a Committee of parliamentarians chaired by the then Acting Chairperson, Hon. Brian Ntundu. On behalf of his Committee, Hon. Ntundu assured this House that the Committee had interrogated the Bill and was in support of the prescribed the number of Ministers, which was thirty. Therefore, what we are doing today, through the Motion raised by Her Honour the Vice-President, is in keeping with the law that was passed by this House. We must not lose sight of that. Her Honour the Vice-President has not come to increase the number of ministries beyond what is provided for in the relevant Act. Secondly, just so we may not lose sight of the facts on the ground, let me remind the House that when President Edgar Lungu was first elected in 2015, he superintended over a twenty-four member Cabinet, ten Provincial Ministers and thirty-two Deputy Ministers, all of whom were drawing emoluments from our very tight fiscal space.

Madam Speaker, this Motion must be understood in context. Her Honour the Vice-President has proposed to abolish four ministries from the current twenty and create nine, which makes the total to twenty-five, which is five ministries less than the thirty provided for in the law. She has proposed that we run a Cabinet of twenty-five hon. Ministers and only ten Provincial Ministers and no Deputy Ministers. So, I ask my hon. Colleagues, as they speak to the people, to be honest and tell them that this proposal will reduce the number of all the Ministers, that is, Cabinet and Provincial Ministers combined, from sixty-six to thirty-five.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We are almost halving the size of the Administration. I had hoped that my colleagues would commend the Government for this initiative. I would like to remind my colleagues in the Opposition that I was once in the Opposition for ten years. So, let me remind them that one job of a member of the Opposition is to present impeccable facts. It is totally unfair to argue that only communist, socialist, commandist or dictatorial countries have ministries for religious affairs when the opposite is true. There are many very democratic, and socially and economically progressive countries that have ministries for religious affairs. I wonder whether Hon. Professor Lungwangwa and the Leader of the Opposition, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, who made these insinuations considered Denmark, France, Greece, Malaysia, Sudan and Tunisia to be communist, socialist or dictatorial States on account of their having ministries for religious affairs. It is unfair to come to this House and use this platform to debate on the basis of ignorance.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam, I commend my colleagues for emphasising the need for us to be frugal. That is exactly what this Government is demonstrating.

Madam Speaker, I promised that I would be very brief. So, let me quickly touch on one matter about which no one spoke. Today, all sectors of human endeavour, including casinos, are represented in the Cabinet. The hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts speaks on behalf of casinos, yet we, a Christian country, do not have a Minister to speak for the Church. Why do we not raise questions about the representation of casinos, taverns and bars?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Nobody said that the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs will guide the operations of churches. That is not one of the functions itemised in the Appendix that Her Honour the Vice-President presented to this House.

Mr Kambwili: Lungwangwa tapepa!

Mr Lubinda: So, I wonder where my colleagues in the Opposition are getting that. The functions that have been tabulated are very clear and noble. One of the most important functions is to be the channel through which churches and other religious bodies will communicate with the Government. You heard what my colleague from Kwacha said about how church leaders go to schools to ask for land. Now, they can present their cases to a ministry that is mandated to speak on their behalf. In turn, the ministry will take the cases to the other line ministries, other religious bodies and this august House.

Madam Speaker, I heard an hon. Member talk about civic education in schools and universities. I wonder how many of our people today are able to interpret the National Emblem of Zambia. I am sure that if I was to engage my friend, Hon. Lufuma, ...

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: ... he might have to do some research before he can interpret the emblem for me. The same goes for the National Anthem. We have listened to people sing it and when they are supposed to get to the second stanza, they repeat the first. Yes, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa has taught civics, but I am afraid that does not seem to have impacted positively on the people. That is why we want to create the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs.

That ministry, Madam Speaker, will not tell individuals how to conduct themselves. Rather, it will provide guidance to all Government functionaries on ethics, values and principles to consider when coming up with policies.

Madam, a few hours ago, we were asked what this Government had done to sensitise the people on the referendum. Somebody is now saying that he wants the Government off his back and that it should have nothing to do with the way he conducts himself. Is that not a contradiction? The Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs will not tell us what time to sleep. Rather, it will guide schools, other ministries and State institutions on how to anchor all policies made on the values and ideologies of the Republic of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Speaker, I heard someone say that there is no need for this ministry because there are no religious sites in Zambia. The truth is that religious sites anywhere in the world are established by citizens. There are many important religious sites that require protection by the Government in Zambia today. I am surprised that some people do not know that. Only someone who is not attentive to what is happening will fail to know that. Anyway, I will leave that for another debate because I do not want to eat into the time Her Honour the Vice-President needs to wind up this debate.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, this Motion is non-controversial and all the controversy anyone might want to create around it is unnecessary. I, therefore, appeal to all my colleagues to do that which is expected of them by the people and reduce the number of ministries from sixty-six to thirty-five. I am sure that my colleagues will support this very noble Motion.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, allow me to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on the Floor. The Motion is non-controversial and I expect all the hon. Members of this House to support it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the proposed combination of ministries will definitely result in better management of this country and promote efficiency in the various ministries. The re-alignment of ministries defines a new development paradigm for this country. We are not approaching this matter with a business-as-usual attitude.

Madam, I think time has come for our people to think outside the box. I heard some hon. Members lament the re-alignment of some portfolio functions from the ministries of Local Government and Housing, and Works and Supply. The Ministry of Works and Supply has been mandated to maintain and insure all Government buildings in the country. We know very well that the Government is the biggest real estate owner in this country. Every district, province and constituency has Government buildings and institutions. So, maintaining all that property is a huge responsibility for the ministry. Further, this Government wants to move away from unco-ordinated institutions and harmonise the development goals of different ministries so that we move in tandem with the Seventh National Development Plan (7^th NDP).

Madam Speaker, governments the world over are reorganising their institutions in the context of doing more with less. That is why this re-alignment of our ministries is very important. Let me touch a bit on the sentiments expressed by various hon. Members on the creation of the Ministry of National Guidance and Religious Affairs. The Government is aware of the clear separation between the Church and the State. I do not believe that this ministry has been created to regulate the Church. One hon. Member has even implied that this ministry will appoint pastors and reverends.

Laughter

The Vice-President: That will not be the case. The Government and the Church are partners in development and in the delivery of social services. There is no way that this ministry will interfere with the operations of different churches in the country.

Madam, on the size of the Cabinet, I think we have made a huge saving because there were initially more hon. Ministers than there are now. That has definitely cut the cost on personal emoluments.

Madam Speaker, a lot has been said and some of the views expressed by the other side have been very constructive. So, we will take them on board.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Members called for a division.

Question, that in terms of Article 92(2)(d) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, this House do approve the abolition and the establishment of the Government Ministries and Departments established by the President put and the House voted.

Ayes – (90)

Mr C. Banda

Mr W. Banda

Mr Bwalya

Mr Chabi

Mr Chali

Ms Chalikosa

Dr Chanda

Mr Chansa

Mr Chibanda

Mr Chilangwa

Dr Chilufya

Ms Chilumba

Mr Chisopa

Mr Chiteme

Mr Chitotela

Mr Chiyalika

Mr Chungu

Mr Daka

Mrs Fundanga

Dr Hamukale

Mr Imbuwa

Mr Jamba

Mrs P. Jere

Mr Kabamba

Mr Kabanda

Mr Kafwaya

Mr Kalaba

Ms Kalima

Mr Kalobo

Mr Kambwili

Ms Kapata

Mr Kapita

Mr Kasandwe

Mr Katambo

Mr Kaziya

Mr Kopulande

Mr Lubinda

Mr Lusambo

Mr Mabumba

Mr B. Malama

Dr M. Malama

Amb. Malanji

Mr Mawere

Mr Mbulakulima

Mr Mecha

Ms M. Miti

Mr S. Miti

Mr Mubukwanu

Mr Mukosa

Mr Mukumbuta

Mr Mulenga

Mr A. Mumba

Mr D. Mumba

Mr Mung’andu

Mr Munkonge

Mr Mushanga

Mr Mushimba

Mr Musonda

Mr Musukwa

Mr Mutale

Mr Mutati

Mr Mwale

Mr Mwamba

Mrs Mwanakatwe

Ms Mwape

Mr Mwewa

Mr Ng’ambi

Mr Ngulube

Mr Nkhuwa

Mr Nyirenda

Ms E, Phiri

Ms O. Phiri

Mr P. Phiri

Mr Sampa

Mr Sichalwe

Mr Sichone

Mr Sikazwe

Mr Simbao

Mr Simfukwe

Mr Siwale

Mr Siwanzi

Rev. Sumaili

Mr L. Tembo

Mr M. Tembo

Mr S. Tembo

Dr Wanchinga

Mrs Wina

Mr Zimba

Mr C. Zulu

Mr M. Zulu

Noes – (47)

Mr Belemu

Mr Bulaya

Mr Chaatila

Mr Chikote

Ms Chisangano

Mrs Chinyama

Mr Fungulwe

Dr Imakando

Mr M. Jere

Mr Kakubo

Dr Kalila

Mr Kambita

Mr Kamboni

Mr Kamondo

Ms Kasanda

Mr Kasonso

Ms Kasune

Mr Kintu

Ms Kucheka

Mr Kufakwandi

Mr Kundoti

Mr Lihefu

Ms Lubezhi

Mr Lufuma

Mr Lumayi

Prof. Lungwangwa

Mr Machila

Mrs Mazoka

Mr Mbangweta

Mr Michelo

Mr Miyanda

Mr Mubika

Mr Muchima

Mr Mulunda

Mr S. Mulusa

Ms Mwashingwele

Mr Mweetwa

Mr Mwene

Mr Mwiimbu

Mr Mwiinga

Mr Nanjuwa

Mr Nkombo

Mr Sialubalo

Mr Sing’ombe

Brig-Gen. Sitwala

Mr Syakalima

Ms Tambatamba

Abstentions – NIL

Question accordingly agreed to.

________________

BILLS

THIRD READING

The following Bills were read the third time and passed:

The Excess Expenditure Appropriation (2013) Bill, 2016

The Supplementary Appropriation (2014) Bill, 2016

___________

MOTION

MOTION OF THANKS

(Debate resumed)

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to make my maiden speech to this august House and the listening community outside this House. I hope and pray that the people of Senga Hill Constituency are listening.

Madam Speaker, to begin with, I thank my President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, who took the risk to field me as his Parliamentary candidate for Senga Hill. I am a miracle Member of Parliament because I was once dead, but I have been made alive again.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, my name was dragged through the mud and I thought I was finished, but in His mercy and through Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, God reached out and pulled me out of the mud, cleaned me up and gave me a new lease of life. He made Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu shield me and take upon himself all the evil directed at me. I am who I am today because Mr Lungu did what very few leaders would do when in power, that is, obey God. So, I am very grateful to him.

Madam Speaker, a good man is surrounded and supported by good people while a bad leader is surrounded and supported by bad people. The leadership of the Patriotic Front (PF) is full of very good and loving people. Most of the people that many think are bad in the PF hierarchy are actually very soft and goodhearted. For example, when Hon. Davis Chama was Secretary-General of the party, he was very accommodating. Equally accommodating are people like Hon. Kampyongo, Hon. Jean Kapata and Hon. Kambwili.

Mr Livune: Hon. Sikazwe?

Laughter

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, with such leadership, this party is blessed and will rule Zambia for a long time to come ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: … because the founding father of this party invested in love. He weeded the evil out of the party and imparted the virtue of love in those he groomed to take over from him. As far as I can see, those people have made a strong fence of love around the President.

Madam Speaker, I thank the President and the PF leadership, once again, for choosing me as their candidate for Senga Hill in the 2016 General Elections. In the primaries, I competed with many men of ability, valour and eloquence, and I am happy that I was chosen out of all those people.

Madam Speaker, for me, this victory is the fifth in Senga Hill Constituency. By the way, though voted for five times and this being my fifth maiden speech, I am a fourth termer in this House. In this regard, I wish to recognise the six other hon. Members of Parliament who are serving for the fourth term in this House. All of them are on the right, except for one on the left.

Madam Speaker, I thank the entire leadership of the party at the provincial, district, constituency, ward and branch levels. I want them to know that I feel at home among them. My heart cries out to all those who campaigned for me in the last election and I send my gratitude to all of them. Even though we experienced a very difficult political terrain due to violence, abrasive language and provocations, we ignored all that. I, therefore, salute them for their wisdom.

Madam Speaker, it is not easy to serve as a Member of Parliament for two or three times, but it is even harder to serve for four terms. To most of my friends who did not make it back to this House in 2006, 2011 and 2016, life has become a nightmare. Some of them did not even live long after leaving Parliament and that makes me realise that being a Member of this House is a great honour. I say this also because many hon. Members of Parliament had careers and businesses that they have abandoned to come here and serve the nation. However, when they leave Parliament, they fail to fit back in the space they left behind. Their environment becomes inadequate for them. As a result, frustration and depression set in and, within a short period, they either die or they simply become shadows of their former selves. It is for this reason that a pension scheme for Parliamentarians must be set up.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Kenya, a country very near to ours, has such a scheme, and it is not because it is wealthier. It is just logical, especially after seeing what has happened to many former hon. Members of Parliament.

Madam Speaker, let me now thank and praise the lovely people of Senga Hill Constituency. Many of my opponents in the elections did not realise that fact. As a result, they went with all sorts of badly-devised means to lure the people. Unfortunately for them, only a minority of people fell for the trick. The majority wanted to see progress in the constituency. They want to see things like roads, and health and education facilities.

Madam Speaker, since the people in my constituency are very good and peace-loving and progressive, the President awarded them with a district. The people of Senga Hill now have a lot of work before them to bring that area to the fore in Zambia. Madam Speaker, let me comment briefly on managing loss. Loss, as we all know, is very common to men and women. No matter who we are, we will suffer loss at one time or another. However, managing loss is a skill that is difficult to master because of the lack of preparation. One of the tenets of competition is that those who cannot take blows must not throw them and those who cannot accept defeat should not compete because there is always someone better than them.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: That is hard to swallow, but it is a fact. One cannot be better than everyone else.

Hon. PF Member: No!

Mr Simbao: Losing is a painful experience, but that is the source of fun in competition and the loser must take pride in having fought a good fight. Building hopes on winning without putting a relief valve in place can be very deceiving and result in a very painful loss. So, we must be careful about how we handle loss. It can be a death blow to our being and total destruction to the self.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, the last elections in Senga Hill were won cleanly by the PF. The President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, amassed 75 per cent of the vote, which left the loser with some respect.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, God fights for the humble. Humility is the biggest weapon of all. It is more powerful than a nuclear bomb and all the stashes of money about which people boast. When you are truly humble and God-fearing, God will fight for you and give you victory, and humility is the signature of the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu. So, there is just no way God could have failed him. In my heart, he won by 75 per cent.

Madam Speaker, when the PF won the elections in 2011, it knew exactly what the people yearned for. Top on the list were roads and the Government went flat out to meet that need. Today, Lusaka has been reborn. Recently I took my visitor from the United Kingdom around and he could not believe the Lusaka he saw.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: It is true!

Mr Simbao: Madam Speaker, whether some people like it or not, Lusaka is now a Capital City of which to be proud all because of the beautiful roads, and the PF has not been segregative because it has made roads everywhere, including Misisi, Chawama and Mtendere.

Hon. PF Member: Dundumwezi.

Mr Simbao: This is what the people of Zambia wanted and this rebirth will now be seen on the Copperbelt when the Copperbelt 400 (C400) Road Project is operationalised and throughout the country when the Link Zambia 8,000 Kilometre Road Project is completed.

Madam Speaker, workers wanted more money in their pockets as promised by the PF and that promise was fulfilled. The PF Government, in its first three years in office, raised salaries and the tax exemption bar to levels that could only have been achieved in six years if it were not for the radical approach used.

Madam Speaker, let me now debate the President’s Speech. The President has come out clearly in indicating that his heart is in agriculture, which could become the greatest anchor industry for Zambia. The world population has ballooned and, soon, food will be the area of competition, not the other areas of industry. It has been stated that the two World Wars were fought because of a population explosion. So, the future wars will be fought on the battlegrounds of food and water.

Madam Speaker, this country has enough arable land to feed over 200 million people. Therefore, Zambia can grow food and contribute to averting a third world war.

Hon. Member: In conclusion.

Mr Simbao: I have heard you. Just wait for me.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I thank you.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam First Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_________

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 28^th October, 2016.

__________________

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