DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 1st November, 2013

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

DELEGATION FROM THE PARLIAMENT OF NAMIBIA

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House about the presence, in the Speakers Gallery, of the following hon. Members of the Standing Committee on Youth, Gender and Information Communication Technology from the Parliament of Namibia:

(a) Hon. N. Muremi, MP, (Leader of the Delegation);

(b) Hon. R. Kavara, MP;

(c) Hon. N. Nambili, MP;

(d) Hon. A. Kandjii, MP; and

(e) Ms M. Bessinger (Secretary to the Delegation).

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: On behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, I wish to receive our guests and warmly welcome them in our midst.

I thank you.

FREE DIABETES SCREENING FOR MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND STAFF

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, as part of the commemoration of the World Diabetes Day, the Diabetic Association of Zambia has been granted authority to conduct free diabetes screening for hon. Members of Parliament and staff.

The screening exercise will take place on Friday, 8th November, 2013, in Committee Room No. 5 between 08:00 and 16:00 hours. Understandably, the exercise is on a voluntary basis.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to turn out in numbers in order to benefit from this important free-heath service.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to acquaint the House with the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 5th November, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

Head 05 – Electoral Commission;

Head 06 – Public Service Commission – Office of the President:

Head 07 – Office of the Auditor-General; and

Head 08 – Cabinet Office – Office of the President.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 6th November, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Budget to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

Head 09 – Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President. I should note that if we have not finished the previous day’s business, this will take precedence;

Head 10  – Police and Prisons Service Commission – Office of the President;

Head 11 – Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs; and

Head 04 – Ministry of Gender and Child Development.

Sir, on Thursday, 7th November, 2013, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Heads will be considered:

Head 12 – Commission for Investigations – Office of the President;

Head 13 – Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs;

Head 14 – Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development; and

Head 15 – Ministry of Home Affairs.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 8th November, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time. I hope that you have taken note of that, hon. Member for Kalomo Central.

Mr Muntanga: Yes, I am waiting for that.

The Vice-President: This will be followed by Questions to hon. Ministers, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, and the following Heads will be considered:

Head 16  – Drug Enforcement Commission;

Head 17 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs; and

Head 18 – Judiciary.

I thank you, Sir.

___________           

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has been a Member of Parliament for a long time now. He has been a Minister and he is now Vice-President. I have not heard him donate huge sums of money or sink boreholes in his constituency.

Sir, considering the fact that hon. Ministers cannot accept gifts which are worth more than K180, where do you think hon. Ministers get these huge sums of money which they donate to their constituencies through projects such as the sinking of boreholes and the provision of capital equipment like ambulances?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if I understood the question correctly, the hon. Member wants to know where my hon. Ministers get the money to sink boreholes in their constituencies. Firstly, the reason there is so much fuss about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is that it is the main source of funding for infrastructure such as boreholes in individual constituencies.

Sir, believe it or not, there are also well wishers who would like to see us succeed and voted back into power. They make contributions instead of just speaking off-the-cuff. I would say that those are the two sources of funding. That is, the CDF and companies such as the Lusaka Water and Sewerage Company, for example, which is installing a network of water-pipes into Bauleni at the moment using a grant from the Coca-Cola Foundation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, you will recall that at the time the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was leaving office, the salary for a domestic worker, under the Minimum Wages Act, was K250.00 and the Patriotic Front (PF) Government increased it to K520.00, which is a 110 per cent increment. May I find out whether the workers concerned are happy with that increment and whether the Government has any intentions of reviewing the Act.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am yet to meet somebody who was not happy to receive an increment, especially 100 per cent in their basic salary. As to whether we are going to change things again in the future, I cannot give undertakings of that nature. I think, by now, the hon. Members know the way the systems work in the responsible line ministries, the way such things come to Cabinet Committees and finally to the Cabinet. It is not for me to stand here and give promises.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, the civil society organisations (CSOs) have expressed serious concerns on the Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO) Act of 2009. I would like to find out what the position of the PF Government is on the concerns raised by the CSOs on this matter.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the position is that we are very happy to meet with them and consider the way forward. Some of the NGOs are running around in countries such as Sweden, I understand, saying that we are a wicked Government wanting to reign in the NGOs. This country is heavily dependent upon the NGOs. The Disaster Mitigation and Management Unit (DMMU) is in partnership with the NGOs in every single district of the country through Memorandum of Understandings (MoUs). In view of this, it is very unfair for the NGOs to do what they are doing. We do not want to see people pursuing political agendas under the guise of the NGOs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, I would like to have a comment on the gesture that His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, made to the students of Sioma Secondary School.

Interruptions

Mr Ng’onga: Sir, does that mean that State House has been opened to students and all sectors of the country as opposed to what it was …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is entitled to ask a question.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Are you through, hon. Member?

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I am not yet through. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to comment on whether State House is now more open to the public than it has ever been.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we are very open people by …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, many people go to State House. They also go to the Vice-President’s Office and Cabinet Office. That is our style and, as long as we can maintain order, we will continue to receive people from all walks of life.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, there are conflicting statements with regard to the farmers’ contribution towards input support. Some statements are saying they are supposed to pay K130.00 while others are saying that it is K100.00. Which one is the correct amount?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock should be sitting next to me, but he is not. I believe the correct amount is K130.00.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President indicate if the Draft Constitution will be subjected to a referendum.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we shall see. I read in The Post Newspaper that the final copy is being printed today and we shall happily read it and see what it recommends as the way forward. Incidentally, I would like to make a clarification on the last question of the hon. Member for Kalomo Central. The contribution is largely a book entry because the seed component of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) package has been set at zero rather than half the price. The Government is paying 50 per cent of the actual total and the other 50 per cent is paid by the farmer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, during the campaigns, the PF Government promised youths jobs, but the promises have not been fulfilled. After that, they also promised the nation that the Ministry of Youth and Sport was going to have a programme that would compel school leavers to undergo skills training through the Zambia National Service (ZNS), but nothing has happened since that pronouncement was made. I would like to know what has happened to that programme.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not recall the promise, …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … but I will provide the answer next week, once I have looked into it. As for the promise to give youths jobs, we said we would focus on creating employment, and that is what we are doing. Kwamana.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President is seen to be very active during by-elections. He trots from one place to another. As Head of the DMMU, we have not seen him go to Ikeleng’i. He also insists that he is notified of a question before he can give a comprehensive answer.

Mr Speaker: Ask your question.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, some bridges in Ikeleng’i have been damaged and the rains have started. When will His Honour the Vice-President visit Ikeleng’i to attend to this problem?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if the question is about issues to do with bridges in Ikeleng’i, the Acting Head of the DMMU is in my office, here at Parliament. My office is about forty-paces’ walk from here so you can get technical details from there since this is a technical issue. I have looked at the bridges occasionally, as you would have seen on television, but it is not my job to make an engineering assessment of these needs. My job is to make sure that the system works properly.

Mr Speaker, yes, I do tend to go to places where there are by-elections and traditional ceremonies. That is the job of the Vice-President. I think it is as simple as that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, why is the Government sidelining contractors and suppliers who are doing business with the mining companies on the Copperbelt? Are we treading the footsteps of our colleagues in the previous Government where only those who were connected with the system were given the privilege to do business?

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we are promoting Zambian supplies, Zambian-manufactured materials and Zambian labour in the mines. We are not sideling, but promoting them.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, on various platforms during the by-elections, His Honour the Vice-President informed the nation that farmers were supposed to pay K100 for the FISP. I would like to find out when the amount was increased to K130.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I cannot give the exact date, but we went through the calculations twice and it turned out to be most useful to increase the farmer’s contribution on the fertiliser from K100 to K130 and reduce the contribution on the seed to zero. As for the exact date that was effected, I cannot say.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, yesterday, the president of the United Party for National Development (UPND), Mr Hakainde Hichilema, accused the Government of having paid $388 dollars per metric tonnes of urea fertiliser instead of $330 dollars per metric tonne. He alleged that there is a lot of corruption in this Government …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Ms Namugala: … and that the people of Zambia are paying more for the fertiliser than they should. Can His Honour the Vice-President clarify the position of the Government on this issue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I can only advise the hon. Member and President of the UPND to go and see the Zambia Police Force, Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) or Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) so that they take up the matter. I cannot take it up because I am not a one-man ACC who can stand here on a verbal query and state whether or not this allegation is true.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should complain to the law enforcement agencies and, if the system fails, that is when she can come back and complain.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, workers at the Tanzania-Zambia Railway (TAZARA) at Chozi and TAZARA as a whole want to know why they are being discriminated against in the sector in that ever since the PF Government came into power, their colleagues in the Zambia Railways Limited have had a salary increment while they have not.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I wish I had advance warning of that question because then, we would have looked into the allegations of discrimination against the workers at TAZARA. The situation at TAZARA is complicated because of the Tanzanian half of the ownership. So, when they are negotiating for a salary increment or getting paid, it is done jointly by both the Zambian and Tanzanian governments. Therefore, there are different levels at which this issue is discussed. I will certainly look into it and get back to the questioner. However, I cannot answer the question off-the-cuff. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President is the Vice-President of the Ruling PF and is also the Republican Vice-President and Leader of Government Business in the House.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from him why President Sata has maintained silence on the statements made by him and the Minister of Justice, Hon. Wynter Kabimba, alleging that there are corrupt elements in the PF Administration. The people out there are wondering why President Sata is silent on this issue. I would like to find out the reason for his silence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, his mouth is his property.

Laughter

The Vice-President: If he chooses to say something, that is his prerogative. If he chooses to let the sleeping dogs lie, it is also his prerogative. Therefore, I cannot speak on his behalf on that particular question.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of Order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order that hinges on the credibility of this House and the statements that hon. Government Ministers make on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, on several occasions, the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock has assured this House and the nation that fertiliser is delivered in various constituencies. By 0855 hours, this morning, no fertiliser had been delivered in most of the districts in the Southern Province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the Executive in order to mislead this House and the nation pertaining to a very serious issue that hinges on the food security of this nation and not to apologise to the nation for this?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Speaker: Yesterday, I indicated that I had approved a request from the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock to issue a ministerial statement. The statement will be issued early next week. When that statement has been issued, you will have an opportunity to engage the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock.

In the meantime, let us continue with the session. The hon. Member for Chadiza was on the Floor.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I want to …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of Order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Another point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious constitutional point of order. According to Article 51 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia, the Cabinet is collectively answerable to this House.

Sir, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to fail to respond to a question of national interest relating to issues of corruption in the PF Government? Corruption has far-reaching consequences on the economy of this country. Is he in order to state that the President’s mouth is his property so he can choose when to speak, when he is part of the Cabinet which, by virtue of Article 51 of the Constitution, is collectively answerable to this House?

Is he in order to fail to answer the question that I put before him? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the doctrine of collective responsibility, in this case, has been misconstrued. The question was about why the President is silent on the allegation of corruption in the PF Government. His Honour the Vice-President indicated why he thought the President was quiet. It has nothing to do with collective responsibility. That is my ruling.

Continue, hon. Member for Chadiza.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, some gay activists have gone to some countries outside Africa to source funding so that they can use that money to sensitise people in our country on gay rights.

Hon. PF Members: Are you gay?

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President the position of the Government with regard to gay activists.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I prefer to refer to them as alleged-gay activists because I have not read or seen anything authoritative to the effect that there are people who have gone outside the country to look for money.

There are always people from Zambia going to look for money overseas and they will use whatever useful by-line they can to get this money. I imagine that this happens quite a lot. 

Our position is that there is a simple law which we inherited from the British about acts contrary to the order of nature and that law stands. You have not heard me or anyone else propose to have it changed. As far as I know, the answer to the question is the same as it would have been ten years ago.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): His Honour the Vice-President, the man seated next to you, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, made it very clear that he is very uncomfortable with you …

Laughter

Mr Miyanda: … unless you name the corrupt hon. Ministers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: Now that it is ‘you and your mouth’, …

Laughter

Mr Miyanda: … when are you going to name the corrupt hon. Ministers as well as apologise to the man sitting next to you?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member cares to go through the stories in The Post newspapers, he will find no mention of me saying that we have corrupt Ministers in the Zambian Cabinet.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: I never said that.

What I said was that corrupt people such as those in the land-grabbing industry in Lusaka are attracted to the Ruling Party. For example, the people in Lusaka West had the blue chitenges when the MMD was in power. As soon as the PF came into power, they changed to the green chitenges.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: This is what I was explaining to the journalist and I will stand by it. If you so wish, you can get the names of the 273 people who are being charged at the moment for land-grabbing offences from the court proceedings.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, only a few days ago, …

Mr Mwale: Embekeza, naiwe.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: … the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) …

Mr Mwale: Muzungu, onama boza.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: … and its affiliates wanted to picket Parliament on account of the wage freeze which the PF Government has imposed for two years.

Mr Mulomba: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: As they were about to conduct the demonstration, the Government quickly said that they should not go ahead as the wage freeze had been suspended.

Mr Mulomba: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma: I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the actual position is so that the ZCTU is ‘crystoly’ clear.

Hon. Government Members: Crystal.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Sir, may His Honour the Vice-President be clear on the issue of the wage freeze.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, for clarity’s sake, I think that it should be stated that the wage freeze is for one year. There has not been a wage freeze for this year, but only enormous increments at certain levels in the Civil Service. Therefore, it is a one-year deferral, if you like, of the change.

The hon. Minister of Finance made it very clear that he intends to stick by this. However, this is not to prevent anybody from coming forward to open this issue up so that we hear his/her points of view and they also hear ours. All we are saying to the ZCTU is that we are not dictators and definitely not authoritarian. We are prepared to talk about almost anything.

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwila: Ikala, iwe.

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President may continue.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: How do you raise a point of order when His Honour the Vice-President is on the Floor?

The Vice-President: Sir, we are not afraid to talk, but we have made our position clear.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: On whom?

Mr Mwila: Ikala panshi.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Dr Kalila: … to pose a question to His Honour the Vice-President.

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Dr Kalila: Sir, recently, the Government …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Lukulu East, you may continue.

Laughter

Dr Kalila: … signed an agreement with a Chinese company to erect more than 160 communication towers throughout the country.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

Dr Kalila: Sir, practically every district has benefited from this project except Lukulu. Can His Honour the Vice-President tell this nation why we, the people of Lukulu, …

Mr Livune: Ba ba zonda baja, ayi?

Mr Muntanga: They are hated so much.

Laughter

Dr Kalila: … are always discriminated against in terms of development?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I could be much more informative, for the hon. Member’s benefit, if he could slip me notice of the question because then, I could demand to know from the ministry responsible or even from Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA) what the reasoning is.

Sir, I do know that there have been some inconsistencies in the case of the Western Province in defining exactly who constitutes a chief for the purpose of this ZICTA programme. However, we are very happy to review it. Again, you can come to my office and we shall see what we can do.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga: … what progress has been made towards the re-opening of Mulungushi Textiles since the year is coming to a close.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: Ndiye ma question, ayo.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if I were you, I would forward a question of an urgent nature to the Ministry of Defence.

Interruptions

The Vice-President: I, obviously, do not know what is happening with each and every company or factory in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I have been corrected that the wage freeze is, indeed, for two years.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: It is the recruitment freeze that is for one year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): I thank you very much, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, with the onset of the rains, the people of Lukulu have started crying because of the state of the Katunda/Lukulu Road.

Mr Mwila: Takwaba fimbi ifyakulandapo?

Mr Mutelo: May I know the immediate plans that the PF Government will put in place to …

Ms Namugala: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: … assist the people of Lukulu over this road.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I feel bewitched by this road because every time I stand up, it comes at me.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I think that it is time I had an even more comprehensive look at it together with the hon. Minister responsible so that we try to put your mind at rest.

Sir, the difficulty with the Katunda/Lukulu Road is that the expenditure on the Mongu/Kalabo Road is so dominant in the Western Province that it has tended to cut out this road. However, the rehabilitation of the roads to the South of Mongu has been really brought up to speed. Therefore, I will take a good look at it and give you a written reply.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, my question has been overtaken by events.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, immediately the PF took …

Ms Namugala: On a point of order, Sir.

Ms Imenda: … office, there were some appointments made in the Foreign Service.

Ms Namugala: On a point of order, Sir.

Ms Imenda: May I find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether of those who were appointed to the Foreign Service two years ago, there are some who have not taken up their positions and, if so, are they getting a salary or not?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is so nice being asked a question by the hon. Member for Luena because she is gentle and kind.

Laughter

The Vice-President: However, I would like to ask the hon. Lady to ask me the question in a format where I can answer it.  I do not have the information at hand. If she wants to write or bring it up again next week, we shall give it a try. However, it is just not possible to know everything that is happening in and outside the Government.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, at the time of privatising the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO), the Government of the Republic of Zambia …

Ms Namugala: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: … assured the people of Zambia that 25 per cent of the shares in ZANACO would be offloaded to members of the public. When are the 25 per cent shares going to be offloaded to members of the public?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am reliably informed that this has been done. Perhaps, it should be me asking the question, and he should be the one to answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, in the Western Province, people have been arrested twice, …

Mr Mwiimbu:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: … in 2011 and 2013 respectively. What is the long-lasting solution to …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon Member for Kalabo Central, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: … this issue, which is troubling the people of the Western Province, because there is no unity and peace in the province?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is a bit noisy there, but the way to settle things down in the Western Province, to the extent that it is unsettled, is to follow the law. You cannot run around, saying, “This is Barotseland Plc.” You cannot do that in any country of the world.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, last week, the Zambia Daily Mail carried a report to the effect that the people of Sioma were buying roller meal at K150 per 25 kg bag.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ooh!

Prof. Lungwangwa: What relief can you give to the people of Sioma?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, that is the responsibility of the DMMU and I will see to it that it is done. I would not believe everything that I read in the Zambia Daily Mail, anyway.

Hon Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Lupososhi. Oh! Sorry. Time is up.

____________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

SPORTS EQUIPMENT FOR NCHELENGE

161. Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge) asked the Minister of Youth and Sport:

 (a) when Nchelenge District would be provided with the following:

  (i) footballs, netballs and volleyballs;
  (ii) jerseys; and
  (ii) sports shoes; and

(b) when the Government would start allocating the Youth Empowerment Fund equitably countrywide.

The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Masumba): Mr Speaker, the mandate to provide sports equipment that includes footballs, netballs and volleyballs is vested in the specific sports associations. The sports equipment that includes balls, jerseys and shoes would, therefore, be provided according to the development plan of the various sports associations.

Sir, my ministry is working towards ensuring that sports associations are empowered administratively and in their operations. This is through various measures that are being put in place to empower the National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ) to ensure sports development in sports associations.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that the ministry always disburses the Youth Empowerment Funds equitably countrywide.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question.

Mr Chipungu: Where?

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, the ministry uses population distribution and poverty levels as variables to determine the amounts to be allocated to a particular province annually.

Sir, the ministry has, so far, equitably disbursed funds in three provinces, namely Lusaka, Northern and North-Western in which all districts have benefited.

Mr Speaker, the august House may wish to note that funding to the rest of the provinces will be done as soon as possible.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mpundu: Hon. Minister, are you saying that …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this procedural point of order. However, I know that I raised it contemporaneously. Is His Honour the Vice-President in order to inform this House and the nation that the 25 per cent shares in ZANACO have been offloaded to members of the public when there has been a statement on the Floor of the House to the effect that this has not been done? Is he in order to continue misleading the House? If the shares were offloaded, how was that done?

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that I would urge the hon. Member for Monze Central to file a question which I will direct to the hon. Minister of Finance.

Mr Mpundu: Hon. Minister, are you saying that the ministry has since stopped supplying footballs, netballs and volleyballs directly to districts as has been the practice in the past?

Mr Ndalamei: Like the MMD used to do. They have failed.

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, in my response, I emphasised that this is the responsibility of sports associations. If these things were done in the past, I think the PF Government has a different approach altogether. We cannot do things like they were done in the past regardless of whether they are right or wrong. I think that is not the position.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that …

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, this is my seventh year in this House, and I am a regular visitor of the Hansard to see how business was conducted in the past. I am cognisant of the fact that there are three arms of Government. I am also aware that we were elected to come to this House and debate matters concerning our people. Is it procedural to refer a Member of Parliament to court whenever he/she seeks guidance?

Mr Speaker: If you were present yesterday, hon. Member for Mwandi, you would have heard me refer to this issue. If you were present, but you did not hear it, I reserved a ruling and will address that issue in extensio.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Rufunsa may continue.

Mr Chipungu: ... all the districts in Lusaka Province have received the Youth Empowerment Fund. I would like him to confirm whether Rufunsa District has received the fund. If so, can he indicate how much has been given to the district.

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, the question is not on Rufunsa. However, I wish to indicate here that Lusaka Province was the second province to benefit from the Youth Development Funds. So, as far as I am concerned, Lusaka Province has already benefited from the fund. If his district has not received the funds, then let the hon. Member come up with a new question. The fact of the matter is that Lusaka Province was given its allocation and Rufunsa is in Lusaka Province.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I am delighted with the answer given today relating to the Katunda/Lukulu/Watopa Road in Lukulu. However, is His Honour the Vice-President in order to say that he has been bewitched by this question and, possibly, by the hon. Members of Parliament for Lukulu West and Lukulu East …

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: … who have continuously cried for this road to be worked on? Is he really in order to say that he has been bewitched by this question?

Mr Speaker: It was figurative speech.

May the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabompo West, please, continue.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, just yesterday, I received information from my office in Kabompo that the Youth Development Funds have not been disbursed to Kabompo District. Today, on the Floor of the House, I have heard from the hon. Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport that the funds have been disbursed to Kabompo District. Could I know exactly how much and to whom these funds have been disbursed since, as of yesterday, no funds had been disbursed to the district.

Mr Masumba: Mr Speaker, I said that the North-Western Province had been given the funds and I believe my hon. Colleague comes from that province. However, I am not sure whether Kabompo District has received the funds or not, but the reality is that the beneficiaries in the North-Western Province received the Youth Development Funds. So, if there were no beneficiaries in his district, that could be the reason it has not received the money. However, all the beneficiaries in the North-Western Province were given the funds.

I thank you, Sir.

LUPOSOSHI LOCAL COURTS

162. Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Justice:

(a) when the following local courts in Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency were constructed:

(i) Chungu;

(ii) Tungati; and

(iii) Chabula; and

(b) when the Government would construct local courts in the following areas in Nalolo Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Nalolo;

(ii) Liliachi;

(iii) Sinungu;

(iv) Shekela; and

(v) Kaunga.

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Chungu Local Court in Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency operates in a rented temporary structure since the court building has not been constructed. Tungati and Chabula local courts operate …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, people on my right!

Dr Simbyakula: … in old dilapidated structures, but they are being considered for construction in 2015.

Sir, Nalolo Local Court operates in a rented structure, but is being considered for construction in 2015. The following local courts operate under trees, but are being considered for construction in 2015:

(a) Liliachi;

(b) Sinungu
 
(c) Shekela; and
 
(d) Kaunga.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Deputy Minister of Justice whether he is considering talking to the DMMU …

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, thank you for this opportunity to raise a point of order.

Sir, my colleague, Hon. Bwalya, Member of Parliament for Lupososhi, seems to have no idea where Nalolo is. Now that he is interested in the carriage of justice in Nalolo, is he in order not to seriously consider donating part of his CDF to help the people of Nalolo who have been denied justice?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Well, I have also noted a trend …

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … about these questions. Probably he would consider, in consent with his constituency, to extend his generosity to the people of Nalolo.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member of Parliament for Senanga continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, before that point of order, I was asking whether the hon. Deputy Minister and his ministry have considered providing tents for the local courts that are operating under trees since the rains have started and court sessions might be suspended.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, that is a good idea and we shall talk to our colleagues at the DMMU.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, a day or two ago, I raised a point of order concerning Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 89. There was a subsequent point of order raised by Hon. Dr Kaingu. Your ruling then, Hon. Mr Speaker, was that the hon. Minister should clarify the matter through a statement. However, yesterday, the hon. Minister of Finance added more information by telling us about the extension or the time limit for SI No. 89.

Is the hon. Minister in order not to inform us through a statement so that any other questions which may arise can be answered? I seek your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: There were two points of order raised on the subject. The first one I answered extempore and reserved the ruling for the second one. I rendered a ruling, explaining the chronology of the SI. I did not end there, but also invited the hon. Minister of Finance, when winding up debate, not through a ministerial statement, to address the issue. The hon. Minister provided an explanation in that context. Therefore, he was not out of order to respond in the manner that he did because it was at my direction and was part of my ruling. That is my ruling.

I must also add that in the course of the debate on the Budget, you will still debate the Head under the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. If hon. Members wish to express themselves on that issue, again, they will be at liberty, on behalf of their constituencies, to do so. So, not all is lost.

The hon. Member for Sesheke may continue.

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, after learning that local courts in Nalolo Parliamentary Constituency operate under trees, could the hon. Minister consider constructing local courts as early as possible.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, this situation is not only in Nalolo Constituency, but also all over the country. There are many other areas that are undergoing such difficulties. As you know, if we had limitless resources, we could have constructed modern structures in all parts of the country. However, the hon. Member knows very well that resources are limited and they have to be used judiciously. You know that you have to cut your dress according to the size of the cloth. So, as a Government, we try, as much as possible, to do what we can with the limited resources.

I thank you, Sir.

COMMUNICATION TOWERS IN MWINILUNGA

163. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications when the Government would facilitate the erection of communication towers in the following areas in Mwinilunga:

(a) Chief Kakoma’s Area; and

(b) Senior Chief Kanongesha’s Area.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications (Col. Kaunda): Mr Speaker, the Government, through ZICTA, completed the tender process and awarded the contract for the erection of 169 communication towers to Huawei Technologies Company Limited in September, 2013. The contractor has since commenced mobilising resources and it is expected that all the 169 towers will have been put up by September, 2014.

Sir, the hon. Member may wish to know that Chief Kakoma’s and Senior Chief Kanongesha’s areas are covered under the 169 towers to be erected by September, 2014. May I also comfort the hon. Member for Lukulu East by saying that I, too, do not have a tower yet in my constituency. However, this is a continuous exercise until all the parts of the country have been covered.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, my question was very specific. I was asking when the towers would be erected in the two areas. Out of the 169 towers, when, exactly, will the towers be erected in the two chiefdoms that I have mentioned?

Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, after the contractor has brought in all the equipment in the country, then, we shall work out a programme of where to start from. At the moment, I cannot give the actual dates when the towers will be erected.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, I did not get …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the Executive is charged with the responsibility of advising the Head of State on several matters. We have seen people appointed and reshuffled before they are sworn in. We have also seen someone appointed when it has been said that he has no experience. Is the Executive in order to continue advising the Head of State in that manner?

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I think we have a serious challenge regarding points of order. You may have noticed that I deliberately ignored all the points of order during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time and I was uniform in that approach. I have given guidance that, first and foremost, points of order relate to proceedings, order, and rules of procedure. That is the general rule and purpose. However, there is an exception for urgent matters. If Zambia is on fire, you should raise a point of order and it will be the Speaker to determine and satisfy himself that the matter warrants intervention. If you are going to raise a point of order in the midst of a debate on the Budget Address on an issue relating to the allocation of land, in all fairness, is that urgent? Where do we stop with these points of order, anyway? If this process is not employed properly, there is a risk of my shutting out genuine concerns in the same vein because I am not sure whether the issue raised warrants a point of order or not. I am inclined to curtail it. However, once I form an opinion that a point of order is irrelevant, I will stop it midstream. However, hon. Members, I expect you to make your judgment and ask yourself whether the point of order you want to raise is compelling and urgent. Certainly, hon. Member for Lukulu West, that is not urgent or grave. What is grave about that?

The Hon. Member for Lukulu East may continue.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, it was not my intention to raise a follow-up question until the hon. Deputy Minister made reference to Lukulu in relation to the communication towers. However, I did not get his comments. So, could he repeat his comments, considering that we have been denied towers?

Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, I was offering comfort to the hon. Member for Luluku East that I, the owner of towers, have not got one in my area too. So, we will continue erecting towers as the work goes on.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the programme of erection of communication towers in most parts of the country. Last week or the week before, the hon. Minister indicated that he would also consider the border areas. However, I would like him to reaffirm that the border area in Ikeleng’i with the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) will be considered because there is a huge influx of Congolese around that area.

Col. Kaunda: Mr Speaker, of course, there will be areas of priority where the towers will be erected first before we move to other areas. Some constituencies and chiefdoms have absolutely no towers, while others have. I will sit down with my colleagues at the offices and the hon. Members of Parliament and, then, we shall go there. After all, my son is in that area. So, I will make sure you have a tower.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, construction …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, realising the seriousness of your ruling on points of order, I would like to say that the House needs to have a light moment at certain times.

Sir, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is His Honour the Vice-President and Leader of Government Business in the House in order to put flowers on his jacket without explaining to us, Zambians, that now we need to have extra badges? Is he in order, Sir?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Well, I am told that it has special signification and remembrance. All I can say is that you should find time during tea break to sit with His Honour the Vice-President and, then, he will update you on the insignia he is wearing apart from, of course, his looking smart.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member can continue.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the construction of towers is a very expensive venture, and yet the Government is erecting towers in all parts of the country when the country is facing a lot of financial problems. Why did the Government not leave this programme to the private sector?

Col. Kaunda: Sir, the funds for building these towers are from the Universal Access Fund and not from the Ministry of Finance per se. So, it is more or less financed by the private sector.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister going to consider places like Sikongo which will be flooded by the end of November, 2013?

Col. Kaunda: Yes, I will, Sir.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister, in answering a follow-up question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu East, indicated that the hon. Member of Parliament should find solace in the fact that there are no towers in his constituency too. Which constituency is he referring to when he says, “My constituency”? Further, should Lukulu East surely be punished on account of that? I do not know which constituency he is talking about that does not have a tower.

Col. Kaunda: Sir, the trouble with people who were born, raised and married in Chadiza is that English is a problem to them.

Laughter

Col. Kaunda: Sir, I said the area and not constituency. My constituency is State House and it is well catered for.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, I heard the …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister, who is wearing a wig which is torn in front, …

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: … in order to bring the people of Chadiza, who are sitting here quietly, into his debate which they are not involved in?

Mr Speaker: Well, I think he was referring to the hon. Member for Sinda whom, he believes, was born in Chadiza.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, for the record of the House and the nation, is the hon. Member of Parliament, who has got no constituency and claims his constituency is State House, in order to suggest that the hon. Member of Parliament for Sinda was born in Chadiza when that is completely untrue? I do not even know where Chadiza is.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Well, the record has been set straight.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I heard the hon. Deputy Minister say that the funds for this project would not come from the Ministry of Finance. I would like to know where the funds will come from and whether it is a loan or not.

Col. Kaunda: Sir, ZICTA collects fees from various satellite providers and that is the money that will be used for that project.

Thank you, Sir.

_____________ {mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE) FOR THE YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 2014 TO 31ST DECEMBER, 2014

VOTE 01 – (Office of the President – State House – K41,503,955).

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present the 2014 Estimates of Recurrent and Capital Expenditure for …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The Vice-President: … Vote 01/01 – Office of the President – State House.

Mr Chairperson, State House is a key Government institution which sees to the Presidency of the Republic of Zambia.

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Order, on my right!

We have started the second part of the Budget process. Therefore, there has to be order in the House.

Mr Chairperson: His Honour the Vice-President may continue.

The Vice-President: Hon. Members are well aware that the Presidency is charged with the critical responsibility of the overall governance of the Republic of Zambia and ensuring that the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the nation are upheld for the sole purpose of protecting and safeguarding the interest of the country, its citizens and residents. As the apex institution of the Government, State House plays a critical overarching and supervisory role in providing national guidance and overall policy direction to our country.

Mr Chairperson, given this mandate, the policy objective and role of State House has been encapsulated in a mission statement which reads as follows:

“To deliver inspirational and visionary leadership to the nation and to promote inclusive governance in order to achieve a better life for all Zambians.”

In support of the mission statement and to give State House some specific focus and direction through its operations, the institution’s goal statement reads as follows:

“To achieve effective and efficient advisory and support services for enhanced execution of Executive functions by His Excellency the President.”

Mr Chairperson, State House has continued to strategically reposition itself in order to effectively provide quality advisory and administrative support services to enable the President to discharge his constitutional and Executive functions in the governance of the country.

Mr Chairperson, State House functions are performed through two key departments, namely Presidential Affairs and Human Resources and Administration. The Budget Estimates which are before the House, will enable State House to undertake its planned programmes and activities. It is for all these programmes that I wish to appeal to the hon. Members to support the estimates of State House as presented.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to inform the hon. Member for Kalomo Central that, included in the State House Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, are some expenses for going to lay flowers at the Cenotaph, the sword in the stone outside my office, on 10th November, 2013. The 11th of November, 2013 is Remembrance Day otherwise known as Armistice Day when the First World War ended. Its commemoration includes, among other people of the world, Zambians who died in quite considerable numbers in both the First and Second world wars fighting, as it happens, for Britain but, as it happened in the end, for Zambia …

Mr Muntanga: Why you alone?

Dr Scott: Well, because I was just thinking about this the other day when I realised that Zambia did not end the First World War until three days after Remembrance Day because there was no Short Message System (SMS) to inform General Lettow-Vorbeck that he should vacate Kasama which he had occupied, thinking he was still at war.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to debate this Vote. I elect to call it the Vote for the Presidency so that we do not emphasise on State House as just a residence. That is the Office of the President and is, therefore, the Presidency.

Mr Chairperson, there is a need to emphasise the Presidency part of the Vote. The President performs important functions of heading the State and the Government. This office has tremendous responsibility to ensure that our country is efficiently and effectively governed. The Government should deliver the much-needed services to our people, and the Presidency is at the helm of all this.

Mr Chairperson, to effectively deliver these dual responsibilities of efficiency and effective governance and delivery of services to our people that I have mentioned, there is a need for the Presidency to have strategic units around it. When you check the Vote on the Presidency, you will find that there is one element that is not emphasised, and yet it is important for the Office of the President. This is monitoring and evaluation. This country needs to be better organised and this must emanate from the Presidency.

Mr Chairperson, since the President is the leader of the Government, we need a well- organised and responsive Presidency so that we can attain the many goals that we have set for ourselves. As I said, over the years, we have disarmed the Presidency, especially when we did away with the National Planning Commission. When we returned to development planning, we should have created a unit to enhance the Presidency in that regard. Today, we have many programmes in this country and the Budget is doubling, but there is no corresponding improvement in the lives of the people. This is because of poor co-ordination. The Road Development Agency (RDA) will come up with the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project and the Link 400 km Road Projects and they become programmes. We need a holistic programme that covers all the areas of the country and the Presidency must show leadership in that regard. We have the Vision 2013 that must be driven by the Presidency. We have the development plans and the Presidency must provide leadership in coming up with programmes of a short and long-term nature so that we begin to reduce the problems that our people face. The Presidency must be concerned about the welfare of the poor …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

I am concerned about the noise from my right. Please, can we consult quietly.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I think that if the Presidency was well organised, this House would be well organised too.

Laughter

The Chairperson: order!

Please, let me do my job.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the head is very important in governance and bringing order to the country. I can tell you, without referring to your ruling, that many institutions are not organised and there is no seriousness because this must emanate from the head.

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Hamududu: That is why we should do everything possible to enhance the Presidency. It is not only about the current President, but also future Presidents.

Mr Chairperson, I was talking about the Vision 2030. Without special units such as the Planning Unit in the Presidency, and in the line with the National Planning Commission, which is working very well in other countries that we have assisted, we will not be focussed to deliver on the development agenda. When you look at the Budget, you will see that the element of monitoring and evaluation has not been given due attention. I think that the President must now be concerned that the country is underperforming in the implementation of programmes. At the moment, there are a lot of programmes of a short-term nature. We are offloading a lot of money, but getting little results. The Presidency must insist on performance of the system, lest we continue to borrow, thinking that failure is as a result of a lack of money. We have enough money to change this country. Our Budget this year of over US$6 billion is enough to make a proper mark in the social development agenda of our country. However, we need organisation and that organisation can only come from the Presidency.

Mr Chairperson, the Presidency must have a unit in the Ministry of Finance that monitors ministries. This unit must be above ministries because the ministry is also a subject of monitoring and evaluation. Therefore, there should be a unit that is higher than all the ministries to ensure that there is performance in the ministries and that when we allocate money, it produces the results that the Presidency desires.

Mr Chairperson, I will give a few examples to build my case. Firstly, we are not against the creation of districts, but the issue is that there must be order in the way that it is done. The normal practice in this country, even before the PF came into power, was that the creation of a district was preceded by a Delimitation Commission that would conduct a study to identify the parameters for creating the district. The population of the area, economic activities, and distance to the next districts were analysed so that when the district was created, it fitted into the national development agenda, instead of being a liability. The creation of districts by the President can be done better if he was capacitated with units that would help him to make thought-out decisions and after a proper feasibility study. After a report has been submitted to him, he can now create the district. There must be a procedure for creating districts.

Sir, there is evidence that some districts were not supposed to be created. For instance, I think you have heard about how they are failing to find where to locate Chikankata District.

Mr Chairperson, to some extent, districts must be self-financing local authorities. If you do not have proper criteria for creating districts, you are going to create a long-term problem. Even developed countries like South Africa, which is the biggest economy in Africa, do not have as many districts as we have. So, creating districts is not a solution. It is service delivery that is important. That is just one example.

Sir, the other example is the ambitious road programme that we have embarked on. Of course, any Government would be ambitious to roll-out a programme such as this one. We had programmes called Road Sector Investment Programme (ROADSIP) I and ROADSIP II. Hon. Mooya will explain this better. The Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project could have shortchanged some of the parameters of ROADSIP II. Some donors promised financial help for ROADSIP II, but then you came up with another programme. That is why we had problems in accessing money from the European Union (EU). We have been told that there is money in the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock from the World Bank which we are failing to absolve because of the lack of co-ordination.

 Mr Chairperson, I remember a Motion was moved by Hon. Mulusa that called for the enhancement of the monitoring and evaluation function in the President’s Office. I can debate it now because it is over six months ago when it was brought to this House. However, it was incorrectly defeated. I think the President is now getting concerned. That is why, sometimes, he goes to check on the progress on a road that does not exist. Information on such projects should be available through what I would call the think-tanks surrounding the President. South Africa has think-tanks in place and so does Namibia which we helped with this system. Most of the people there are students of our system. This will help solve the problem that we are facing of a bloated Civil Service, forcing the Ministry of Finance to freeze the wage increase for next year …

Mr Kambwili: Question.

Mr Hamududu: Wait a minute.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, with proper advice, we will understand where the problem lies. How come we do not have enough teachers and nurses, and yet the wage bill has gone above the threshold? It means that there is something wrong. It could be that the structure is bloated at the top where there is not much work. The Civil Service structure must be bloated at the bottom where service delivery is. In economics, if you go above the wage threshold and do not have enough workers at the grassroots, then there must be a problem. This is because ordinarily, in many countries, when you reach that threshold, you will have enough workers at the grassroots because the people at that level are not highly paid compared to those at the top. As a result of the lack of co-ordination, many ministries are creating positions at the top and not at service delivery level.

Therefore, Sir, the President must be capacitated for him to make those decisions. More importantly, he must be informed of the performance of the hon. Ministers and their ministries through a well-co-ordinated system. That way, non-performers, that is, the dead wood, can be dismissed from the system. When you become President, you are surrounded by a lot of people. At the moment, the President is not seeing across and you need these units to capacitate him. I want to assure you that if we do not do this, this country will continue increasing the Budget and the Government will not deliver on the development agenda.

Mr Chairperson, in this country, a good number of children do not go to school, the education standards are going down and we are growing an illiterate population. One witness who came before your Committee on Estimates from the Zambia National Education Coalition (ZANEC) said that the performance of pupils in science and mathematics is pathetic. We must be concerned about the future productivity of our children. According to reports, there are 12,000 teenage pregnancies in our schools every year. Those statistics must be reversed, including those on early marriages. The President must have all this information for him to come up with policies to reduce these social ills. You cannot develop the country like this. We have continued talking about one thing which is the 7 per cent or 6 per cent growth of the economy, and yet our population is badly damaged.

Mr Chairperson, with a young population such as ours, the Presidency should direct investment in the right places for our children. We should not compromise on education, the health of our people and service delivery in general.

Sir, in supporting the Vote for the Office of the President, I hope, in future, we will stop talking about animals and grass at State House because that is not the real issue. The issue is about the Presidency and its mandate. Some people talk about animals and grass around State House, but that is trivial. The issue is about the mandate of that office.

With these few words, I support the Vote on the Office of the President.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the chance to debate a very important aspect of the Budget, which is the Vote for the Office of the President – State House.

Sir, I agree entirely with the previous speaker on what should dictate State House. State House is not the grass or water coming out of those fountains. State House is what it is going to do to provide a service to the people of Zambia. I say this because State House appoints Cabinet Ministers. They are appointed by the person …

Prof. Luo: On a point of order Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

When we start debating the Budget, we should, as much as possible, reduce on points of order. I think the Hon. Mr Speaker was very clear when he made a ruling on points of order because once we start raising points of order like we have been doing, in Committee of Supply, we will not make headway. So, I will allow that point of order, but I hope it will be the last one.

Please, proceed.

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to raise this important point of order. Are the hon. Members of Parliament on your left, who have been debating, in order to keep referring to the keeping of the surroundings at State House clean as a problem when, as a country, we should be very serious about assuring the good health of our people? Grass and water stagnation breed mosquitoes and malaria is one of the biggest causes of morbidity and mortality in this country.

Are they in order, Sir?

The Chairperson: Order!

When we say that we should minimise on points of order, it is not that the points of order we are raising are not important. Most of the points of order we want to raise are important except that, sometimes, they do not fall into the category of procedural decorum, relevance or an urgent nature. So, please, I hope you understand us in that context.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that State House is not the grass in the surroundings, but what is coming out of it in terms of implementing Government programmes. This is what is lacking in our present dispensation.

Sir, the Presidency is a very important component of our democratic right. It does not matter who the President in State House is. Today, he could be from the PF, tomorrow, he could be from the UPND and, the other day, he could be from the MMD. It does not matter who it is, but what matters is what the Presidency stands for and that is what I want to address this morning.

Mr Chairperson, the Presidency appoints the Cabinet and the various heads of the arms of the Government like the Legislature, Judiciary and the Executive. Therefore, it must have the overall authority to determine suitability of the persons that are appointed to these positions. However, we have seen that, in the eyes of the Zambian people, the Presidency has not taken care in appointing people that are suitably qualified to certain positions.

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement for State House states that it is mandated to perform a number of functions. I do not have it before me, but I heard His Honour the Vice-President read it out.

Sir, my next item of debate is on the inclusiveness of the PF Government. I will look at the relevance of the PF Government to the people of Zambia. The PF Government is not inclusive …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwanza: … because provinces such as the Copperbelt, North-Western and Southern do not have representation in Cabinet.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: This is not right because the first Cabinet of 1964 was very inclusive. That was a Cabinet which embraced all the parts of Zambia. Today, the Cabinet comprises people from one region.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Mwanza!

We are considering the budget for State House and, if you take that route, we will be diverting from the main issue. I would rather you debate the budget for State House than the general debate on Cabinet and so on and so forth. I am sure you are capable of doing that.

You may continue.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I am debating the office not the person who is in office. Therefore, I suggest that whoever aspires for the position of President in this country must always reflect on the 1964 Constitution because I believe that there was fair play in that Constitution with regard to the composition of the Cabinet. However, today’s Cabinet is not fairly composed. I am talking about these issues today because the Presidency directs what should happen in the ministries. The President is the Head of the Government. Therefore, he must ensure that he treats all parts of Zambia fairly.

Sir, with regard to keeping the people of Zambia alert, the Presidency must ensure that the rule of law is upheld at all times. However, it must not be selective in doing this. For instance, when someone goes to State House, then a letter …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that, as an elected Member of Parliament for Solwezi West, I am proud to have a President in State House. That is very important because he is a national leader. As hon. Members of Parliament, we must feel free to discuss the Presidency and what it is not doing properly with a view to correcting it. The time will come when we shall verify the figures in the Budget, but now is the time for policy debate that covers the issues that I highlighted in my preamble.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to have a Presidency that is decisive and makes decisions that are sometimes good for those that they affect and bad for those that they do not affect. What is important is that the Presidency is able to make decisions. What we have been witnessing of late would not be happening if we had effective decisions being made, particularly in the PF. I am specifically talking about the PF because the sitting President is from the PF. Since he is the President of the country, he must have the authority to deal with matters of discipline in his party without having to please one or two people.

Sir, some hon. Members of the PF Central Committee are saying things that are contrary to what other members are saying while the President is quiet over such matters. That is not good for our country. We must move away from that. I would like to see a Presidency which will respect the rule of law. This means that if a particular part of Zambia does not vote for it, it should not be labeled militant, but included in the Government administration to ensure that it votes for it next time. I would like to see a Presidency that is inclusive in nature.

Mr Chairperson, it is not right to have a Presidency that allows former Members of Parliament to hold private meetings and write things that demean the development process of other areas. That is not correct and that is not what we want to see in the Presidency …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I reluctantly rise on this point of order because I have a lot of respect for the hon. Member on the Floor. However, his debate has put me at a loss. It is a well-known fact that the President appoints the entire Executive from among elected Members of Parliament. The hon. Member knows very well that there are Members of Parliament from the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces in this House, but he is saying that the Copperbelt has no representation. He went further to insinuate that the President appoints the leader of the Legislature, which is not true. The hon. Member has continued citing information which is not authenticated such as some letters he is alleging to have been written to the President. Is he, therefore, in order to continue misleading all of us here and the entire nation with that kind of debate?

I seek your serious ruling for the sake of progress, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Order!

You have adequately debated your point of order. However, the hon. Member on the Floor should take into account that point of order as he proceeds.

You can continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I have been debating on the Floor of the House for the past seven years. So, I am not a pushover. I debate what I think is right, what the people of Solwezi West want and not what a particular hon. Member of Parliament from some province wants. That is very important.

Mr Chairperson, the Presidency should be the mirror of society that we all look forward to becoming. If the Presidency is not allowed to address a press conference, what are we protecting? We are not protecting anything. If the Presidency hates the people that did not vote for it, what is the impact on the electorate in those areas? It is fatal. Therefore, it is important that we emulate what our freedom fighters did in 1964 by bringing unity to Zambia. Today, I can tell you that Zambia is not united. You may pretend that there is unity in this country, but it is not there. 

Hon. Government Member: There is.

Mr Mwanza: There is no unity.

Interruptions

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, we need to have a system where the Presidency ensures that unity prevails in this country for the betterment of our children. I am very grateful that some hon. Members of Parliament have indicated that their constituency is State House. It means that they grew up there, are part of this country and know what I am talking about in terms of unity. We cannot underplay unity. Whoever takes up the Presidency of this country should ensure that the concept of unity is protected at all times. Once we allow this to lapse, we are going to have problems. Some of the problems we are facing today emanate from the promises that were made during the campaign. The PF promised the people of the Western Province heaven on earth, including the restoration of the Barotseland Agreement. Today, they have backpedaled on this and do not even want to talk about it.

Mr Mtolo: Arresting people.

Mr Mwanza: Sir, they are arresting innocent people. When some hon. Members of Parliament want to visit those that have been incarcerated, they are not allowed to do so. This is not right.

The Chairperson: Order!

I understand when you say that you have been here for a long time. That is precisely the reason you should try, as much as possible, to concentrate on the topic under discussion. Sometimes, we keep quiet to let you make your point but, if you take too long, the Chair does not consider that to be of much relevance. Please, can you come back to the subject under discussion.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I value your counsel.

Sir, in conclusion, I would like to say that I support the Vote, taking into account the observations I have made.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to debate the Vote for State House. I support the Vote with a lot of reservations. I will be very brief in my discourse by, firstly, responding to His Honour the Vice-President’s Policy Statement where he spoke about the mission statement of State House. I will not be shy to talk about State House and the Presidency because I am speaking about it regardless of the occupant of State House. State House is the core of our society. Therefore, it can play an integral role in binding the country or making the country fall apart. This translates into the quality of leadership that those who are supporting the institution of State House are gifted with. I am also cognisant of the fact that God does not gift people anyhow.

Sir, the 10 per cent increment in the allocation from last year is a decent increment, but I also note that the increment should have been less, considering that certain inhabitants of State House were expelled from it. I do not know if that is true, but His Honour the Vice-President can correct me. I am told that the monkeys are no longer at State House.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, since there was a reduction in the number of animals, the allocation for animals ought to have tallied with the number of animals. However, I see that there is a slight increase from K155,700 to K170,000 in the allocation for animals. So, I do not understand this increase, considering that the monkeys, which were put there for a specific reason, have been thrown out. I do not know what they did wrong to the occupant of State House. Perhaps, they were removed from State House because they are a delicacy where the occupant comes from.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, on page 1 of the Yellow Book, there is an allocation of K320,000 for the State Lodge Farm. It would have been helpful if, at least, His Honour the Vice-President had made a comment or two on the actual activities that go on at the State Lodge Farm for me to appreciate the allocation. Generally, I think that the figures for Human Resource, General Administration and Capacity Building are decent, but let me zero-in on Capacity Building. Let me take advantage of this platform to tell the House that capacity building is an integral part of human development, especially among us, politicians, because we come from diverse backgrounds.

Sir, I am speaking authoritatively because I have just come back from a conference where I was elected Chairperson of the Parliamentary Capacity Development in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region. Capacity development should be extended to all public offices, including that of the President. This is because, in these public offices, like we say in Tonga, hilatondwa, meaning that there are do’s and don’ts like that of a shrine. That is why I said that regardless of the occupant of State House, there is a need for an induction programme. There is absolutely no reason, for instance, for the people who are supposed to capacitate the top, that is, State House and its occupants, to say that the President has his own mouth and, therefore, they are not responsible for whatever he says. This is part of the capacity building that I am talking about. We ought to complement one another. In this particular case, I am speaking about the centre which is State House. It is supposed to bind us together. I think the hon. Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications knows that State House is supposed to be magnetic rather than repulsive because he has lived in State House most of his life.

Mr Chairperson, the things that we hear coming from State House, whether they are innuendoes or truths, are so discouraging that we begin to wonder whether we are living with an adversary or a father figure.

Mr Chairperson, the telephone number for State House is in the public phone book. You can call State House at any time and ask to speak to the occupants of that office. I used to speak to President Chiluba any time I wished to do so if I had a specific problem before I became Member of Parliament. I used to speak to President Mwanawasa as well, may his soul rest peace, because he was very accessible. My point is that State House should not only be accessible when there is some sumo biscuit or carrot dangling.

Laughter

  Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, let me take Sioma District or even Sinazongwe District as an example of where, because you now have this artificial umbilical connection to State House, then …

Mr Mwaliteta interjected.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, there is a man who is disturbing me.

Ms Lubezhi: It is Mwaliteta.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, there is a need for courtesy among us.

Hon. PF Member: He is your brother.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, if you have an artificial umbilical connection, then you are granted a favour in return. I think that is quite old fashioned. This is because in the principle of State Policy in the Constitution, the Executive is guided to provide all these rights progressively to every Zambian regardless of their creed, colour, political affiliation and whether or not they agree to certain issues. This is because we deliberately chose to be in this democratic dispensation where, for instance, I can tell His Honour the Vice President a particular policy is wrong without him thinking of how he is going to fix me.

Mr Chairperson, the occupant is already inside State House and the only thing that is left is for him to come out. Therefore, there should be no anxieties about whether or not power is about to be usurped when people are agitating for what rightfully belongs to them.

Sir, my point is that the development agenda in all the corners of this country should not hinge on the fact that you are a friend of the President or not. It should not be like that.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I should be able to state that I disagree with a particular position and state the reasons for my disagreement. I should not look behind my back and say that because I spoke in that manner, therefore, Hon. Chikwanda is going to give the CDF to Hon. Kabanshi and she will not give it to the people of Mazabuka. There are a few PF Members in Mazabuka. If you deny me the CDF on account of my political affiliation, it is without doubt that someone from the PF will also suffer the consequences. My appeal is that State House should become more embracing and accessible to the members of the public. If I am talking to His Honour the Vice-President, Dr Guy Scott, or the Secretary-General (SG) for the PF, I should not be looked at with raised eyebrows because it is presumed I am looking for a job.

Mr Sianga: Which one?

Mr Nkombo: The aleisa, aleisa.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, it should not be viewed like that. This is because meaningful engagement with an institution like State House is what can develop this country. We should not allow this gap to be there. It happened in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) days where if you did not toe the party line and did not have the UNIP Card, you could not access a market. I see this coming back and I think it is being engineered from the top.

Sir, there is so much that can be said. However, I support the Vote. We must stop looking at one another based on our political complexions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, we must look at each other as elected Members of Parliament at a particular time and representatives of the people of this Republic called Zambia. It should be known that the job of the Government is to percolate this bowl called Zambia and serve the people indiscriminately. This is because if you told me to first toe the PF party line, I would not do that because I am allergic to that. Ndawomuka, meaning I get goose pimples …

Ms Lubezhi: Yes.

Mr Nkombo: … to imagine myself belonging to the PF.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Nonetheless, now that we are in this democratic dispensation, I can sit with His Honour the Vice-President. I worked with him for many years and we can agree and disagree because that is what we agreed to do amongst ourselves for the people.

Mr Chairperson, I support the Vote, but with some reservation, especially with regard to what I read yesterday before this House, the Mkaika-gate Scandal. That should never happen. You are bound by collective responsibility to assist President Sata. All these disgruntled elements like the person who wrote that letter must never be brought anywhere near the President because they will contaminate him. Some of the people in Katete are the author’s relatives. Issues of the Social Cash Transfer Scheme and directing the hon. Minister of Finance to withdraw a Statutory Instrument (SI) are all scandals and they give me goose pimples.

With those few remarks, I thank you for allowing me to debate.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the Vote for State House. I also support the Vote with a few remarks that I think are important because the figures that we were requested to express our opinion on go to answer two fundamental questions. The first question underlying the K41.5 million for State House, with an increase in the range of K3 million above last year’s allocation, is: How are we being governed? The second question is how should we be governed?

Mr Chairperson, these are not just figures for the administration of State House. Behind these figures, are the fundamental values of who we are as a society and what we ought to be as Zambia. Behind these figures are our national ethos, values and identity. It is, therefore, important that we interrogate State House on how we are being governed, as a nation, and how we ought to be governed. What issues do we see in the governance of the country?

Mr Chairperson, those who occupy the position of President are addressed at all times as, “Your Excellency”. This title demonstrates outstanding quality, extreme goodness and rising above all else. It is the epitome of who we are, as a nation. This is what is embodied in the Presidency. Therefore, the Presidency should demonstrate that which is good for everybody. The Presidency should radiate peace, love, inclusiveness, equity, social justice and all other good tenets of a democratic environment which we have chosen for ourselves because it rises above petty issues.

Mr Chairperson, it is the responsibility of all those who surround the Presidency to demonstrate excellence in the governance of the country, peace, national unity, national identity and integrity. This is what is behind the K41.5 million being proposed to be spent on State House.

This being the case, Sir, it is important for us to examine carefully what is going on. How we have been governed so far is worrisome to the majority. We want the Presidency, first and foremost, to be insulated from accusations of hypocrisy, dishonesty and mistrust. This is the role of those working close to the Presidency such as hon. Ministers.

Mr Chairperson, when an hon. Minister stands on the Floor of this House to make a policy statement, he/she is representing the Presidency. This is because he/she is the appointed authority of the President. Therefore, whatever comes from our colleagues must demonstrate the highest level of integrity.

Sir, insulating the Presidency from mistrust means that, as a nation, we must begin to think outside the box. When we elect a President, it is no longer like running a club. We are running a nation and the President must demonstrate national inclusiveness and oneness, regardless of how the votes were distributed. The elections have passed and we must now look at the governance of the State.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, this means that, for instance, whenever the President visits a community, he/she is, in a way, making a mini State Visit as far as that particular community is concerned. When the President makes a promise to the community, whether during a by-election or a visit, it must be followed judiciously by those who are close to him so that whatever pronouncements the President makes are followed to the letter and implemented expeditiously and the President is insulated from hypocrisy, mistrust and dishonesty.

Mr Chairperson, we do not want to see our President falling in that kind of a trap. This is the role of His Honour the Vice-President, hon. Ministers and civil servants who surround the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, this is why we sometimes admire the Presidency of other countries because those who are close to it shape it so that it exhibits the highest level of excellence in whatever it does day and night. Therefore, it is important that we interrogate these issues in order to build our nation. We want to see this country rise above the petty concerns that have occupied us in the last two years, for instance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, the President should not participate in campaigns during by-elections. There is absolutely no need for him to go and solicit for votes for a candidate in a by-election.

Mr Mwaliteta: Question.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Since he is the Head of State, he is the President for everybody.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: There is no need, at that point, for the President to say, “Vote for so and so …”

Mr Mwaliteta: Question.

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and that, “If you do not vote for so and so, you will not have this or that.” Let the President focus on the challenges of the State and deliver development to every part of the country, regardless of political affiliation.

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I salute you for according me an opportunity to raise this point of order.

Sir, time and again, you have guided the House that the Members’ Handbook, 2006 Edition, bars hon. Members of Parliament from bringing the Head of State into the debates of this august House. Is the hon. Member in order to drag the Head of State into his debate despite the fact that we are debating the budget for State House?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: This is one area where the Chair needs to clarify. We are debating the budget for State House. The issue at hand is the K41,503,955 allocation to State House. So far, I have been listening very carefully, and I think the hon. Member is in order. It is not my duty to agree with what he says or not. His Honour the Vice-President or any member of the Executive will rebut what he has said if they disagree with it.

For example, he is saying that it is not right for the President to go and campaign for a candidate in a by-election. So, it is not for me to tell him that you are right or wrong and so on and so forth. You will have the opportunity to debate. My observation is that different Presidents have been doing this since 1964. As I said, this is not an issue for me to debate. You can rebut that when your time to debate comes. Nevertheless, the hon. Member is in order.

Can you continue, hon. Member.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, it is time for us to think outside the box. Whether we or the Presidents have been going to campaign at by-elections since Independence or not, the question now is can we insulate the Presidency. Let the Presidency, from today to whichever year, occupy its mind with the direction of the nation. His Honour the Vice-President can go and campaign for candidates at by-elections. We can contest the by-elections with His Honour the Vice-President. That is fine, but let the President manage the State.

Having said that, I have one or two comments to make on the proposed funding to State House. The allocation for monitoring and evaluation has reduced from K1.1 million for this year to the proposed K267 000. Mr Chairperson, I have a very serious concern with this reduction. The question is: Is monitoring and evaluation not important, especially at this point in time when there are many developmental projects being talked about in infrastructure, education, health and various other sectors. Is having such a big reduction justified?

Sir, the other area of concern has to do with landscaping and gardening. The proposed allocation for landscaping and gardening has been trebled from K700,000 this year to K2.2 million in 2014. When you compare landscaping and gardening with monitoring and evaluation, where should the priority be? Should we be putting more money in landscaping and gardening or monitoring and evaluation of projects, especially that it impacts on the poor in the rural areas and compounds. I think there are problems of prioritisation. This is what I meant when I said that behind these figures, there are issues of governance which we should be interrogating very seriously in this House.

Mr Chairperson, with those few comments, I would like to thank you for granting me the opportunity to debate this budget.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to debate on this Vote. The professor is trying to jump out of his box …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … and I thank him very much. Who was the first one to speak? It was Hon. Hamududu who raised the issue of centralisation and monitoring and evaluation. I think it should be understood that the Office of the President is quite a large structure. State House is just one small component of the Office of the President. The major component is Cabinet Office which actually does the monitoring and evaluation, policy analysis and is the co-ordinating centre. The Ministry of Finance, which handles finances for the whole country, has its own monitoring and evaluation unit. That is all part of unity. The President also gets plenty of advice both in the open and in secret from other areas of the Office of the President.

Sir, we can certainly argue where the enemy should be and how much emphasis we should put on analysis and so on and so forth. I will not say that these organisations necessarily harmonise very well all the time, but that is a common problem for large and complex organisations. So, they sort of fragment into villages where people do not communicate with perfect ease. I do not think it is a budget issue, but a governance and management one. I do not think the budget has enough complexity to it or information in it for us to see where the real issue of communication is.

Thank you, again, for that contribution and I beg to move that the figures for the budget be adopted. I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 01/01/ ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 02 – (Office of the Vice-President – K21,328,990) and VOTE 19 – (Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit – K 67,315,970).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, since I will be covering the DMMU, I might just remind the hon. Members, like I said during the Vice-President’s Question Time, that I have the DMMU officials in my office, here at Parliament, who can bring up-to-date information on the issues that were raised last week. They are ready for hon. Members. Anyone who needs help, like the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central wants to know what is happening exactly to his dams, the information is all there. You can go there at your own convenience.

Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Office of the Vice-President for 2014. The Office of the Vice-President derives its mandate from Article 45 of the Constitution. Its statutory functions are published in the Government Gazette Notice No. 183 of March, 2012. These include the following:

(a) Parliamentary Business;

(b) disaster and drought mitigation; and

(c) resettlement.

By virtue of its position as the second highest office in the land, the Office of the Vice-President also performs important cross-cutting functions on issues referred to it by line ministries and other institutions.

Sir, in implementing these portfolio functions, the Office of the Vice-President is guided by a strategic mission statement which states as follows:

“To facilitate effective conduct of Government Business in Parliament; manage disaster and resettlement programmes in order to enhance good governance and empowerment of vulnerable households.”

Mr Chairperson, the Parliamentary Business Department assists the Leader of Government Business in the House to co-ordinate Government Business in this august House and maintains a working link between the Executive and the Legislature in order to enhance accountability and promote good governance.

Sir, the department also facilitates the effective conduct of Government Business in Parliament and processes all Parliamentary Business such as action-taken reports, Parliamentary Questions and various information memoranda from the Executive. In addition, it assists the Executive with regard to the facilitation and processing of Government Bills, responses to Motions and ministerial statements.

In the coming year, the department will continue with the co-ordination of the Government Business in Parliament as well as co-ordinate the Africa Peer Review Mechanism (APRM) which actually works in close conjunction with the Ministry of Justice. The APRM is an instrument voluntarily acceded to by member States of the African Union (AU) to be an African self-monitoring mechanism. In this regard, Sir, the department has to contend with this increased workload emanating from parliamentary oversight.

Mr Chairperson, the Department of Resettlement has one main objective which is to resettle unemployed, retired, retrenched and displaced persons in order to make them self-sufficient. Currently, there are eighty-seven resettlement schemes in Zambia, covering an area of approximately 672,000 hectares across the country. About 39,000 hectares are planned farm holdings out of which 22,000 are occupied. The remaining 17,000 farm holdings are yet to be demarcated and allocated to the target groups.

Sir, in 2014, more resources have been allocated to improve infrastructure in resettlement schemes in order to make them attractive and productive. Further, the department will embark on the process of land acquisition in some of the provinces to create opportunities for citizens to own land with security of tenure. It shall also continue engaging stakeholders to fast-track surveying and giving titles for resettlement land in order to enable settlers to access loans.

Mr Chairperson, my office is also charged with the responsibility of disaster management and mitigation. I wish to report that during the 2013 Financial Year, the DMMU was allocated a total of K69,303,248. This allocation enabled my office to implement a number of disaster-risk reduction interventions. Thus, effectively contributing towards the attainment of the developmental objectives as articulated in the PF Manifesto which seeks to attain social-safety nets and sustainable socio-economic development for all citizens.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation enabled my office to undertake a number of activities, including emergency rehabilitation of infrastructure such as roads, bridges/culverts and schools in a number of districts affected by floods during the 2012/13 rainy season. The unit also initiated the process of developing the Disaster Risk Management (DRM) Framework that will guide the integrating of the DRM measures into development policies. It further implemented the Relief Food Programme in the districts identified in the 2013 In-depth Assessment Report as well as stockpiled assorted food and non-food items to facilitate timely responses to disasters.

Sir, for 2014, the DMMU has been allocated K67,315,970.00. This allocation will be utilised to undertake the following activities:

(a) operationalisation of the Monitoring and Evaluation System in order to ensure prudent utilisation of resources and effective tracking of progress in the implementation of disaster risk-reduction programmes; and
 
(b) operationalisation of the DRM Framework aimed at building resilience and a culture of safety for communities.

Mr Chairperson, my office will also increase investment in the area of early warning, preparedness, mitigation, prevention as part of the DRM and response at all levels in order to reduce loss of life as well as economic and social damages. It will further facilitate interventions in chronically vulnerable and food-insecure areas and implement climate change-adaptation projects.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, I wish to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to allow the DMMU to concentrate on its mandate, as stipulated in the Disaster Management Act No. 13 of 2010 and not, for example, hope that it will do all the jobs of regular road maintenance and so on an so forth that are not disasters, but are part of the functions of other organisations such as the RDA.

With this background, hon. Members of this House, I am urging you to support this budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, …

Col. Kaunda: Iwe, fwala bwino.

Mr Muchima: … thank you for allowing me to debate the Votes on the DMMU and Office of the Vice-President. I will concentrate on disaster management issues and not the Office of the Vice-President per se, although it falls under this office.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation in the Yellow Book for disaster management is quite encouraging and I support it. However, I would like it to be applied to areas of need. Today, in the PF governance, money that is meant for such areas is not applied accordingly. Much of it is directed towards by-elections. When there is a by-election in an area, the food which is meant for poor people in particular areas is taken to where there are by-elections to woo votes. The equipment which is supposed to be used to grade roads is also diverted to where there are by-elections. Works on bridges and other infrastructure are also concentrated in areas where there are by-elections. That is misapplying taxpayers’ money.

 Sir, a lot of infrastructure needs to be worked on and there are emergencies all the time. Therefore, this office is supposed to be busy from the first day of the year to assess disasters. What is a disaster? It is clearly indicated in the Yellow Book that these are occurences of an emergency nature such as damaged bridges and roads that affect the everyday lives of people. Some roads have become impassible, bridges have been washed away and lives have been lost, but all this has been completely ignored.

Mr Chairperson, when the MMD was in office, it introduced provincial offices that were given vehicles to monitor disasters. Nowadays, we do not see officers going to the districts and other areas. For example, in the North-Western Province where I come from, it is already raining heavily, and yet some bridges have not been attended to for the past two years. In Sachibondo, people lost their lives when the bridge was washed away. This issue prompted me to write a letter to the Office of the Vice-President but, to date, the bridge has not been worked on.

Sir, we also indicated in this House that the management of disasters in the district should include hon. Members of Parliament. It would also be prudent if this money was sent to the districts so that it is managed from there the same way that the CDF is managed because we are the people who see what is on the ground. Fortunately, the officers in the Disaster Management Office are very good. I have worked with Messrs Kangwa and Mulenga who were there before. Instead of taking taxpayers’ money to areas of need, the Government is concentrating on political issues that only affect the Ruling Party. This is a very unfortunate situation. It is actually criminal.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muchima: Sir, His Honour the Vice-President is not the Vice-President of a party, but of the country. Therefore, we want him to be as active as he has been when there are by-elections …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a point of order. As someone in the Ministry of Home Affairs, when I hear an hon. Member referring to others as criminals, I draw an interest in it. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to state that there are some criminal activities committed by the DMMU through the discharge of its functions without giving evidence of his statement?

I seek your serious guidance and ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: The serious guidance is that let us be civil in our debate to avoid controversies. With that point of order and guidance, Hon. Muchima, you may continue.

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, we have seen that during by-elections, relief food is directed to certain areas of the country. Unfortunately, this distribution of relief food stops just after the elections, especially if the Ruling Party loses the elections. That is what I am saying is unfair.

Sir, the Government is supposed to study the whole country since it knows the pattern …

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Chairperson: A point of order is raised, and that will be the last one on the hon. Member on the Floor.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, on several occasions, you have guided this House to be factual when debating. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Ikeleng’i in order to insinuate that relief food is given to areas where there are by-elections when I know that in Mansa, for instance, the people do not need any relief food? There is no relief food being distributed there despite there being a by-election.

The Chairperson: When His Honour the Vice-President winds up debate, he should address that issue.

You may continue.

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, it is quite evident that whenever there is a by-election in any part of the country, we see roads being graded and relief food taken to those areas. I can give examples because I have been in this Parliament for the past seven years.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Mr Muchima: Sir, I am talking generally and you can learn from this. I am saying that is a wrong tendency. This is taxpayers’ money and we should apply it judiciously. I would like to advise His Honour the Vice-President that he is not only the Vice-President of the PF, but of the whole country. Therefore, when we write you letters, you should respond to them. When you come into this House, we expect you to give us the answers that the poor man wants. That is what democracy is all about.

By the way, Mr Chairperson, I heard someone say Ikeleng’i, just like we pronounce “England”. That is not the correct pronunciation. The correct pronunciation is Ikeleng’i.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Sir, I have seen that there are increments in the allocations to the Vice-President’s Office. What I am saying is that we need roads and bridges in our areas. The Office of the Vice-President needs to be very attentive to the issues that affect the majority of the people. We need vehicles in Kalabo, Mwinilunga, Chama and many other places so that it is easier to visit the districts. Attention should not just be paid to areas where there are by-elections as a way of wooing support for the Ruling Party. We want the Budget to be applied equitably to the areas that need help. When we come to this House to appropriate funds, we are doing it for the whole country and not just for areas that are represented by the Ruling Party. The money being appropriated is not only from taxpayers in the Ruling Party, but also all the taxpayers in Zambia, including companies that are operating in this country. So, the allocation of funds should be done with decency.

Sir, I applaud and respect one hon. Minister, although he has been challenging me, for doing a good job. I used to see him in Mazabuka, the Western Province and other parts of the country. That is how that office is expected to operate. You did a commendable job and you deserved that ministerial position. I would urge other hon. Ministers to emulate him. The Office of the Vice-President is a very important one. Therefore, His Honour the Vice-President should be above board. He needs to protect the interest of the people of Zambia by ensuring that everyone benefits from this Vote.

His Honour the Vice-President, you are very active during by-elections. We see you move from one place to the other. With the funds that have been allocated to your office, we want to see you visit the remote areas. I want those choppers not only to go to areas where there are by-elections, but also where there are disasters. I want you to travel to Solwezi on the Chingola/Solwezi Road. That road is a disaster because people are dying on it.

Sir, my brother, Hon. Mukanga, I want you to know that there is a disaster in Zhimbe and Nyakaseya. You do not need to wait until people die on that road before you  remedy the situation. You should work on it now using these funds in this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, funds have been allocated for infrastructure development. Some bridges are made of wood and it is rotting. All the provinces should benefit from this budget. There should be no bias in the distribution of resources because doing so is tantamount to misapplying taxpayers’ funds.

Mr Chairperson, this office should strategise for the benefit of the whole country. I do not want to belabour the issues I have already talked about, but just want to remind this Government that it is here for all of us. You came into Government of your own accord. So, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Address the Chair, hon. Member.

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, the Government inherited some problems and has a duty to address them. The MMD still wanted to run this country, but the PF removed it from power. I am, therefore, urging the Government to take development to every part of this country and not just constituencies that are represented by the PF. You need to cover all parts of the country, including where Comrade Dr Kenneth Kaunda (KK) comes from.

Sir, we should stop parading people who have retired from active politics because they will be ‘bruised’.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, I am inviting His Honour the Vice-President to come to the North-Western Province to see what disaster means. You must address it from the …

The Chairperson: Order!

Address the Chair, please.

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, I urge the Government to ensure that it applies the funds correctly. With these few reamrks, I support this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, in appreciating the former speaker’s debate, I would like to say that this is a very important institution. Like he said, when the hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati was Deputy Minister in this office, it was moving in the right direction.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Sir, on this side of the House, we are not here to oppose everything the Government brings aboard. However, if our colleagues on your right do the wrong things, we shall condemn them to the fullest. We shall praise them for the good things that they do.

Mr Chairperson, the Vice-President’s Office has lost an hon. Deputy Minister who was doing a good job. If I had my way, I was going to take him back to that office. I want to say that the DMMU is misplaced because the men and women in its offices try to do their best, but are frustrated by their supervisors, especially His Honour the Vice-President.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: This is a fact. If you go to the DMMU, you will find many letters which have been written to this office concerning disasters in constituencies, but which have not been attended to because of the politics of His Honour the Vice-President.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Ntundu: You can only say, “Question” because there is nothing else you can say on that side of the House. We are here to help you. In fact, we are already helping you because we are talking on your behalf as well. You also have disasters in your constituencies, but you cannot speak …

The Chairperson: Order!

Address the Chair, please.

Mr Ntundu: Sir, for instance, in Gwembe, there are four schools that have had their roofs blown off and the DMMU is aware about that. This institution should be proactive and respond to disasters promptly. Hon. Members of Parliament should not go and queue up at the DMMU to beg for assistance. We do not want to crowd the offices. Why should we beg when this is the job of this unit? It is the job of the DMMU to do the needful.

His Honour the Vice-President, let these officers work independently. Let them make decisions on their own. You are tying their arms …

The Chairperson: Order!

I do not want you to address His Honour the Vice-President directly because when you do that and he answers back, you are not protected. If you say, “I am asking His Honour the Vice-President to do this or that”, you are addressing me and he cannot intervene because I will say you are not addressing him but me. Similarly, you should that say you are requesting a certain hon. Minister to do this and that. If you keep speaking directly to them and then they hit back, it becomes chaotic.

Mr Ntundu: Sir, through you, I want to direct His Honour the Vice-President to ensure that the DMMU becomes an independent institution that makes its own decisions on what to do and where to do it. If you went to Gwembe and saw the state of the bridges, you would be surprised. I am not able to go to Chisanga at the moment. To go to Chisanga, people have to go via Sinazongwe and through Bondo because the bridges were washed away and the DMMU is aware about this. So, I am pleading with our colleagues in the Government to make changes in public institutions. They should not just stand on platforms and say that they are making changes. These changes must be felt by the Zambians. After all, they gave us a lot of hope when they were campaigning, but now we cannot see any change. So, my colleagues, if you do not make these changes, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Say, “If they do not make these changes.”

Mr Ntundu: Sir, if they do not make these changes …

The Chairperson: That is why I am looking at you that way.

Mr Ntundu: … the promises you made …

The Chairperson: Order!

Say, “They made.”

Mr Ntundu: Sir, I recall that the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications used to sit where I am seated when he was in the Opposition.

Interjections

Mr Ntundu: This was his seat when he first came to Parliament.

Mr Muchima: He was that side initially before he moved here.

The Chairperson: Order!

He is on the Floor and not you. You have had your chance to debate. So, let him debate.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Sir, when he was this side, he spoke so well and was so encouraging. He should keep up that spirit.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, I am most grateful for granting me this point of order. Is my younger brother, who is debating very well, in order to state that the PF gave him a lot of hope when he did not vote for it?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Hon. Ntundu, you can take that point of order into consideration as you debate.

Mr Ntundu: Sir, the message has, however, been conveyed that the PF gave Zambians a lot of hope, but they cannot see anything happening now.

Sir, I was saying our colleagues, especially the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications, whose former seat is the one I am occupying now, spoke so well about the DMMU when he was here and the record is there. I will lay on the Table of the House, his verbatim debate on this office. The things that the former Ruling Party and their Vice-President did at this office are still happening. Nothing has changed. So, what was the need of changing Government?

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Sir, the point is that the DMMU should be proactive and respond to disasters promptly. Hon. Members of Parliament should not kneel before them for them to do what they are supposed to do in constituencies when there are disasters. To tell you the truth, I am one of the few hon. Members of Parliament who has never visited the DMMU. At district level, there are disaster management committees that liaise with the headquarters. They keep the headquarters informed about what is happening in the constituencies.

Mr Chairperson, once more, we want to see change in the way that this institution conducts its business. In fact, the allocation is inadequate. What disasters can you mitigate with this allocation? You also have a constituency, Sir, and there are a lot of disasters there.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Sir, this is like a mockery or joke. The PF is not in Government to joke. It should be serious about business. Therefore, it should make changes.

Mr Muchima: Command them.

Mr Ntundu: I have already commanded His Honour the Vice-President through the Chair.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, the other issue I would like to talk about is that of transport for the unit. How can you combat disasters when you do not have transport?

Hon. Chikwanda indicated dissent.

Mr Ntundu: You are shaking your head.

Sir, the tractor for the DMMU broke down seven years ago.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, it is the same for Monze …

Mr Nkombo: A ku Mazabuka.

Mr Ntundu: … and Mazabuka. If you are arguing, you should come with me so that I show you the broken-down tractor. How are you going to work on the bridge in Chisanga? Can you equip the DMMU.

Mr Chairperson, the other week, in my debate on the Budget Address by the hon. Minister of Finance, I said that the hon. Minister of Finance was not sincere. What happened a few days later? The President …

Mr Nkombo: Revoked.

Mr Ntundu: … ‘canned’ him.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, that was after my debate.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, in short, I am trying to say that when the President comes here to officially open Parliament …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Hon. Chikwanda whispered something.

Mr Ntundu: I know that you are whispering there, but you have heard what I said.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, when the President comes to officially open Parliament, the hon. Minister of Finance should take note of the President’s pronouncements, like the one on the opening of a university in Gwembe, and put them in his Budget. However, this does not happen. Hon. Chikwanda, you risk being fired.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that you are exceeding the limit. Let us not go that route. You see, I said that you should address the Chair. You know that when you do that, you are prompting him to begin answering back which is not the idea. Let us be civil in our debate. I think that you are capable of heeding my advice.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, he has continued to make running commentaries. That is why I …

The Chairperson: Order!

That is because you addressed him directly. If you addressed him through the Chair …

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your advice …

The Chairperson: Order!

Ignore what he says. If you address him directly, then you are inviting his comments. That is why I insist that you address the Chair.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, I was just reminding him that if he is not careful, he is going to be fired soon.

Laughter

Mr Ntundu: Mr Chairperson, the Kabuyu Bridge in Gwembe was washed away about twelve years ago. To date, the people of Gwembe cannot get to Siavonga because the bridge was washed away. What is the DMMU doing about this bridge? Once more, I want to urge His Honour the Vice-President to ensure that the officers make independent decisions and are given transport to go to Kabuyu in Gwembe Constituency and see the disasters there.

Sir, with these remarks, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote for the Office of the Vice-President.

Mr Chairperson, my focus is going to be on disaster management because that is something that is of immediate relevance to the people of Liuwa.

Mr Chairperson, just before the Official Opening of Parliament, I spent almost a month in my constituency and moved from one area to the other. The major problem there is that of hunger. There is a lot of hunger in the constituency as a result of the heavy rains last year. Therefore, those who cultivated maize lost it because of the floods. As you might know, Liuwa is a flood-prone area. We do not run away from floods, we actually enjoy them because that is when there is good Kuomboka, but when they come too early, the maize gets destroyed. At the same time, those who cultivated rice also lost it because the water receded too early. Therefore, there is a lot of hunger.

Sir, I recall a conversation that I had at a certain village with a man who told me that I should share his experience with His Honour the Vice-President. Therefore, I hope that His Honour the Vice-President is listening because I want to convey that story to him. The man said that I should share the conversation I had with him at a certain village with His Honour the Vice-President about the strange things that were happening in Liuwa. “What strange things?” I asked. He said that when he went to bed every night, he used to hold the breast of his wife.

Mr Chairperson, I can see that His Honour the Vice-President is now getting interested in the story and is paying attention.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I also thought that, maybe, there was something I would learn from this man. He said that he would hold his wife’s breast and I wanted to know what happened next.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, he said that he pushed the baby away so that he could suckle instead of the baby suckling. These were his words. I am being honest.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: He said that he had to do this in order to survive. These were the words of the man from a village called Mutunda. That is why I remember them vividly. Therefore, His Honour the Vice-President, the hunger situation in Liuwa is serious. For a man to talk like that, it means that the situation is serious. I believe that this is not only happening in Liuwa, but also in many parts of the Western Province, including Mwandi.

Mr Chairperson, in the last Session of Parliament, on the Floor of this House, His Honour the Vice-President said that Liuwa was going to be a beneficiary of relief food. Unfortunately, ...

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised. You know that we have to make progress so, this will be the last point of order. Otherwise, we shall not complete the business of the day. We still have four items on the Order Paper to consider.

You have your point of order, Hon. Muntanga.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I stand as a very worried man. Is the hon. Member for Liuwa, who is my cousin, in order to suggest that in the Western Province, because of hunger, men have taken over the suckling from …

Hon. Opposition Members: The women.

Mr Muntanga: … babies. Is he telling us the truth? This is dangerous.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Maybe, he is telling us something which he is not clear about.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, maybe, he is just being romantic. Is it true that in the Western Province, men are now suckling instead of babies? Is he in order to tell us such stories?

The Chairperson: Order!

He is in order because he said that that is what he was told. He did not say that he saw the man doing it.

You may continue, Hon. Dr Musokotwane.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that in the last Session of the House, His Honour the Vice-President indicated that Liuwa was going to benefit from the disaster relief food. I would like to inform you that the relief food is not reaching Liuwa. If it is, it is just a mere trickle.

Mr Chairperson, I want to indicate that in the few times that relief food has been taken to Liuwa, there have been a number of problems. The first one is that the people who are starving are made to provide transport to ferry the food from the Boma into the outlying areas. How can people who are poor and hungry be expected to hire trucks to take relief maize to their villages?

Sir, if relief food is going to be distributed in this manner, then, they should expect a disaster. Rather than ending the disaster, it will be exacerbated.

Mr Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President, in this Budget, which we are going to approve today, there should be sufficient money for transporting relief food from the centres into the outlying areas. Otherwise, this will not help our people.

Sir, the observation that areas where there are by-elections are being favoured with relief food is true. Liuwa borders Lukulu West. When I visited the part of Liuwa which is next to Lukulu West, people were asking what was wrong with me as Member of Parliament because they saw a lot of food being distributed in Lukulu West. This food was delivered by Government trucks. They were asking why the Government expected them to hire trucks to bring relief food. I asked them when the food was being delivered by Government trucks in Lukulu West. They said during the time of the by-elections. So, it became clear that the Government delivers food in large quantities to areas where there are by-elections.

Mr Chairperson, this idea of delivering food only to areas where there are by-elections is bad and must be stopped.

Sir, I also came across incidences where youths were told by the District Commissioner (DC) that he was going to give them relief food only if they played football. In other words, the distribution of relief food was dependent on the officers of the Government in Liuwa who were manipulating the system by distributing relief food on a political basis.

Mr Chairperson, I do not believe that we are approving this Budget today so that the PF officers can now start organising their party using Government relief food. If they are doing what I was told they were doing, I do not see any other form of corruption worse than this. They are taking advantage of the weakness of the people due to the hunger situation, by forcing them to join their political party. I think this is shameful.

Sir, as you know, Liuwa Game Park is in Liuwa. You can imagine the situation in an area where there is hunger and there is also wildlife. People will say, “If we are hungry, at least, there are wild animals which we should be allowed to hunt.”

Mr Chairperson, coincidentally, when the PF candidate was campaigning in 2011, he told the people that when the PF came into power, all the people would be allowed to hunt inside the game park without permits. That was the campaign message. So, when I went there, they told me that the party which said that it would allow them to hunt is now in Government, but they are arrested when they try to hunt even a rabbit or small animal. In Kalabo, the jail is full of people who have been arrested because of poaching.

Sir, I would like clarification from His Honour the Vice-President, given the serious hunger situation in Liuwa and the promises that were made to the people with regard to hunting. The people sent me to come and ask His Honour the Vice-President when they are going to be allowed to hunt inside the park without the risk of being arrested.

Mr Chairperson, I hope that when His Honour the Vice-President stands up to wind up the debate, he is going to give me an answer which I can deliver to the people. I hope that their radios are on at the moment so that they can listen to the promises that were given by the PF and the answer by His Honour the Vice-President.

So, with those few words, once again, I want to plead with His Honour the Vice-President to deliver food to Liuwa and not just make statements here, in the House, that there is food for Liuwa. The people of Liuwa want to see the food delivered to their doorsteps.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I support the Vote on the Office of the Vice-President.

Sir, perhaps, the problem that we have is because the Office of the Vice-President is simply an office which is required by the President. I think that we need to have a running mate to the President so that the person who is Vice-President can have his office properly funded.

Mr Lungu: Question.

Mr Muntanga: He is saying, “Question” because he has acted as President before. So, he thinks he is also a President.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: So, the issue of funding is critical. His Honour the Vice-President is supposed to be in charge of all the Ministers and to give them direction. However, there is a problem because the Office of the Vice-President does not have such powers. As a result, when we ask him questions since he is supposed to be the bearer of the messages from the President, he simply tells us that the President has his own mouth, and yet, he is the Leader of Government Business in the House. He should defend the President and answer on his behalf. Perhaps, he can go back and consult the President, like he said he would last week when I asked him a question, and come back with a note from the President that he would slip to me.

Sir, we have now turned this office into a disaster management office and nothing else because the other ministries are not doing their job. The maintenance of bridges that are broken down in this country must be a responsibility of the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications. If you ask the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications to inspect the various bridges, they drag their feet. Instead of working on this infrastructure, they end up attending to other infrastructure that has been damaged and which has become an emergency and has not been planned for. As a result, the DMMU is stressed.

Mr Chairperson, I talked to His Honour the Vice-President about a bridge that needed to be repaired in Kalomo and it was repaired by the DMMU. Maybe, it is because I kept phoning his office and he ensured that his officers were called like he has done today. He has brought his officers from the DMMU to his office, here at Parliament. Why are they not able to do that work? Why do they have to be told what to do by His Honour the Vice-President?

Sir, the problem that is there is that His Honour the Vice-President has to direct them to do their work. At the moment, we are not only talking about bridges, but also schools  that had their roofs blown off three to five years ago, and but have not been repaired to date. The Ministry of Works, Supply and Communications should have known the various infrastructure that needs repair. The budget for disaster management is not adequate.

Mr Chairperson, perhaps, His Honour the Vice-President’s disaster management activities should include all the ministries because the ministries are becoming a disaster too. I do not want my constituents to ask for food. I want the constituents to be given enough inputs to grow their own food. However, there is no fertiliser in those areas. The Office of the Vice-President is supposed to direct such activities as the distribution of fertiliser.

Sir, when we asked His Honour the Vice-President a question on fertiliser distribution, he said that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock was not in the House and, therefore, he could not give a comprehensive answer. The reason for this is that we do not have a system where His Honour the Vice-Presidents takes these people to account for not carrying out their responsibilities. There is a budget here although it is inadequate. Start making these ministries work and be accountable. Otherwise, we shall not be able to manage disasters.

Mr Chairperson, one hon. Member praised an hon. Deputy Minister who was going round the country. However, to me, that was not working, but simply politicking. The question is what are you supposed to do and why is it not done properly? Why are the people in charge of infrastructure not working? Why are there no inputs delivered to the various districts up to now?

Sir, are they going to ‘disaster manage’ the whole country when it goes hungry? How will a disaster that affects the whole country be managed if we cannot handle the very few disasters we have now such as the washed-away bridges? This allocation is not something worth talking about. Perhaps, His Honour the Vice-President should have the right to pool money from certain departments of ministries, let alone ‘disaster manage’ them.

Mr Chairperson, this Government is causing serious disasters everywhere. When things are not well, we may be tempted to blame the heavy rains on them.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, why are things going wrong to this extent? His Honour the Vice-President should not just fly around the country when he is going to campaign at by-elections. Someone asked His Honour the Vice-President this morning why he has not flown to Ikeleng’i. I think he should fly to Mongu and drive to Ikeleng’i from there so that he can see what we are talking about. He should drive to Choma so that he can see what we mean when we say the bridges have been washed away.

Sir, since there are many bridges that need to be worked on, he must go with the hon. Minister of Works, Supply and Communications so that they see the bridges together. We do not want to wait until there is a disaster for us to repair infrastructure. We need to repair and maintain infrastructure before disasters occur. 

Mr Chairperson, as you are going to the Southern Province, after Kafue, there is a small bridge at Mwanamainda. I recall the former hon. Member of Parliament, Hon. Amos Nakalonga, warning Parliament that the bridge would collapse. The relevant authorities went and put up concrete slabs to support that bridge, but I do not think that the inspectors have been checking on that bridge. At the moment, the concrete slabs are gone. Very soon, that bridge will collapse and there will be a disaster if it is not repaired. When that happens, that is when the Office of the Vice-President is called upon to attend to it. We do not want such things.

Mr Mwale: They are being abused.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the hon. Ministers should help His Honour the Vice-President for disasters to come to an end in this country. We do not have enough money to handle all these disasters. How many times have you inspected the bridges? Several years ago, we had a disaster at Nkalamabwe on the Great North Road. The bridge collapsed and a bus plunged into the water. That was due to a lack of inspection. It does not help if people just talk all the time and do nothing. If you are a Provincial Minister, you must check on the infrastructure in your province. We cannot just put money in the DMMU and discuss it as a subject.

Sir, His Honour the Vice-President should remind the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue that the road to the ZNS Camp in Kafue is damaged and must be worked on. He should not wait for hon. Members of Parliament to go to the DMMU when there is a disaster.

Therefore, Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that the allocation is inadequate and we want His Honour the Vice-President to improve his management by giving leverage to all the hon. Ministers to do their job to reduce the pressure on the DMMU.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on the Vote for the Office of the Vice-President. I would also like to start my debate by talking about the DMMU. In November, last year, a rainstorm destroyed some houses in the Western Province and Limulunga Basic School was one of those affected. I called the DMMU Office in Mongu and I am glad to report that the DC came with a DMMU officer to inspect the school. The DMMU organised some tents for the school but, unfortunately, they were not enough. I was told that those were the tents that were given to the police officers that were camped there for various reasons. You know, the police are always camping in Mongu, but I do not want to go into that subject that we all know about. I do not know what happened to those tents.  

Mr Chairperson, some relief food was organised, but it was not enough and some people did not get any. The other worrying issue was the damage to the infrastructure at Limulunga Basic School which, for some strange reason, was not addressed by the DMMU. Two classroom blocks had their roofs blown off and remained in that state for the rest of the year. The DMMU went to the District Education Board Secretary’s (DEBS) Office and told them to make arrangements for the repairs of the school.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Ms Imenda: The DEBS Office also has its budget which, I suppose, does not include disaster management. So, the school remained in that state for quite some time and, eventually, the school authorities asked the parents and pupils to contribute some money. I am not sure whether this came as a directive from the DEBS Office to have the impoverished parents of Luena to contribute money for the repairs of that school. I thought that this was unacceptable. On this score, I would like to advise the Office of the Vice-President to find ways of solving such problems. I feel it is not good to tax the already impoverished parents.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I would like to talk about is in regard to a village that got burnt. The DC went there and distributed some blankets and mealie-meal, although I am not sure what else was distributed, because I was attending to other duties in Zimbabwe. However, my concern is how the whole issue was politicised. The DC used this opportunity to de-campaign the Area Member of Parliament. I had to mention on Radio Lyambai that it is the responsibility of the Government to look after its people. Therefore, if they are bringing requisites or relief commodities to the electorate, they should not divorce the Area Member of Parliament from the exercise. This is because the Member of Parliament is the contact between the people and the Government. In view of this, I would like to request the Government to train the DCs on their responsibilities. They are civil servants and are there to implement Government policies and deliver services to the people. They should not leave out the Area Member of Parliament and use such disasters as de-campaigning tools. Since they are civil servants, they should be disciplined if they do such things. They are not politicians, but civil servants, drawing salaries from the Government. I asked my people to check whether the receipt bore the name PF or the Government of the Republican Zambia (GRZ). So, if it bore GRZ, the Area Member of Parliament is part and parcel of that donation. However, if the money or requisites had come from the PF, as a party, then, the Member of Parliament and civil servants have no say on the donation.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to commend the DMMU for responding to certain calamities that have befallen Luena. There is a bridge on the road from Limulunga to a canal that is popularly known as the Chalton Bridge which was washed away and has not been repaired since. We have got in touch with the DMMU through the Permanent Secretary and something positive is on the horizon. I commend the Government for this. I also commend the Government for working on the Ikwichi Slope which was also washed away, but is now operational.

Mr Chairperson, last night, I received a phone call from the DMMU over the Nangandu Bridge which I had brought to their attention. They told me that they are positively looking at it. All I need to do is push the RDA because they have already been written to to get funding from somewhere to repair the bridge. I commend the officers at the DMMU for their hard work.

Mr Chairperson, let me also mention the hunger situation in Luena. My brother, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, attributed the hunger situation in Liuwa to last year’s bad weather patterns. Luena has not been spared from this disaster. There is hunger in Luena. However, I do not have a story about a husband doing some weird things.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: I do not think that we should consider this normal. I have never heard of anyone doing such a thing.

Sir, we have approached the DMMU to look into this situation critically. About two weeks ago, I received a report that the only teacher at one of the community schools in Luena had decided to leave because the community, which was supplying him with food, could not continue feeding him. He has decided to quit his job to go and find other means of fending for his family.

Mr Chairperson, I asked the councillor if he had tried to speak to the community to find out why they had stopped giving him food and he said that he had had a meeting with the community and they told him that there was no way they could give him food when they had nothing for themselves. This highlights how critical the hunger situation in Luena is. I urge the DMMU and the Office of the Vice-President to move in promptly to arrest the potential calamity.

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about something that may not be related to the topic under discussion. As someone from the Western Province, I am very sad about the dismissal of the Permanent Secretary, Mr Emmanuel Mwamba. As far as I am concerned, he was doing a good job and he should be returned to the Western Province because he is a very polite and hardworking man.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairperson, you have given me a very small window, although I had quite a lot of things to say.

Sir, I absolutely deny and resent the allegations that we only distribute food to areas where there are elections and where we have support. The unit is very objective. The policies are underlain by a lot of principals between the Government and the communities. There are NGOs with whom we have MoUs that we use as agents. They conduct the assessment of the hunger situation and the feeding of households. It is professionally done.

Sir, there is the entire unit in this House, ready to answer your queries. With this, …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progressed reported)
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The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 5th November, 2013.