DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 13th November, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I have an announcement to make. I have received communication to the effect that, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other national duties, the Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Edgar C. Lungu, MP, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House until further notice.

I thank you.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

LEGALITY OF THE STRATEGIC RESERVE FUND

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kabimba): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to present this ministerial statement in respect of the point of order that was raised by the Member of Parliament for Monze Central Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, on 30th October, 2013.

Sir, the point of order was raised on the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development during the Question for Oral Answer Session in respect to the Strategic Petroleum Reserve Fund. Article 114(1) of the Constitution provides as follows:

“Subject to the provisions of this Article, taxation shall not be imposed or altered except by or under an Act of Parliament.”

Mr Speaker, the import of this provision or Article in the Constitution is that no other body apart from Parliament can impose taxation, and that such imposition shall be by or under an Act of Parliament. Notwithstanding this provision, the Constitution has authorised Parliament to delegate some of its powers of imposing or altering taxes to other bodies.

Sir, Article 114(2) of the Constitution provides as follows:

“Except as provided by Clauses (3) and (4), Parliament shall not confer upon any other person or authority power to impose or alter, otherwise than by reduction, any taxation.” 

Mr Speaker, under Clause 3, Parliament has been authorised to delegate some of its power of taxation to His Excellency the President, His Honour the Vice-President or an hon. Minister, who may impose or alter tax by way of an order. This power has been delegated under the provisions of the Taxation (Provisional Charging) Act Cap. 364 of the Laws of Zambia.

Sir, I can cite several examples of instances where Parliament has delegated some of its powers of taxation to other bodies. For example, under the Rating Act Cap. 192 of the Laws of Zambia, local authorities have been conferred with the power to impose or alter rates on property within their areas of jurisdiction. Similarly, under the Local Government Act Cap. 281 of the Laws of Zambia, Parliament has delegated power to councils to impose all sorts of levies. Some of these levies include grain levy, bicycle levy, which is very common in Chipata, in the Eastern Province, fish levy and dog levy, among others. Under the Personal Levy Act Cap. 329 of the Laws of Zambia, Parliament has delegated power to councils to impose a personal levy on adults living in the respective areas under their jurisdiction.

Mr Speaker, what should be discerned here is that where Parliament has delegated its powers of taxation to another body, the tax so imposed is of limited application and is known by another term, usually as either a levy or a user fee. These levies or user fees are for a specific purpose. A distinction, therefore, ought to be drawn between a tax, in the strict sense of the word, and a levy or user fee.

Sir, a user fee is a sum of money paid by an individual for particular services or facilities. Residents pay rates or personal levies to a council in order to enable it to provide services to them. A tax, in the strict sense of the word, does not necessarily go towards a specific service or facility that an individual actually uses or benefits from. In Zambia, taxes such as the income tax, Value Added Tax (VAT) and Property Transfer Tax go to Control 99. The Government uses the revenue realised from these taxes for all kinds of expenditure, including salaries for the Public Service.

Mr Speaker, on the issue at hand, Section 20(2)(C) of the Energy Regulation Act Cap. 436 of the Laws of Zambia provides that:

“The Board, that is, the Energy Regulation Board, may charge and collect fees in respect of programmes, seminars and other services provided by the board.”

Therefore, Mr Speaker, the issue of the levy, which is paid in respect of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve Fund, falls under the class of being a user fee or a levy, as defined in the above Section. It is, therefore, in order for the Government to collect this levy or user fee. There is nothing irregular about this to the extent that the point of order tended to have suggested.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now at liberty to ask questions on points of clarification.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, although I did not listen to part of the statement, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Justice why the Government, on several occasions, has assured the nation that it will make corrective measures pertaining to this tax. Secondly, why has the Auditor-General consistently raised this issue as an audit query and the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) itself agreed that this levy is irregular because it is not in accordance with the law?

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, under Section 21(1) of the Energy Regulation Act, it is provided that amounts payable as fees under this Act shall be paid to the general revenues of the Republic. So, there is nothing irregular about the ERB collecting the said tax. Yes, the ERB suggested that this levy was irregular by way of submission to the Auditor-General, but it probably did not visit the provisions of the law.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Sir, last week, as the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development responded to a question, he indicated that his ministry had consulted the Ministry of Justice on the subject matter on the Floor. Therefore, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what prompted that consultation if there was no contravention of the law in the first place.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, I think it is important to realise that this levy was actually introduced by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). 

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba: Therefore, there was nothing wrong with my colleague, the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development, giving that response. What we have done now is to bring this matter before this House to make it clear that the collection of this particular levy by the ERB is, indeed, legitimate and its being collected by the board is in order.

Thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I think I heard the hon. Minister say that this levy is to be collected for a specific period. However, this fund seems to be perpetual. Can he, please, explain this, notwithstanding the fact that this fee was introduced when we were on that side of the House.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, I think my elder brother did not get me clearly. I said it was for a specific purpose and not period.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu mentioned that the ERB itself admitted that this levy was irregular. Can the hon. Minister confirm that the ERB has misled your Committee and, therefore, the House and Zambians out there.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, I would like to refer the questioner to Section 21(2) of the Energy Regulation Act. It reads:

“Monies paid to the general revenues, under this section, shall be applied to the development of the energy sector in Zambia.”

 Therefore, Sir, there is nothing irregular about the ERB collecting this levy.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has conceded, in his previous answer, that the Government found it necessary to bring this matter before Parliament so that it is normalised. Taking into account that this so-called levy, based on the hon. Minister’s classification of the tax, was imposed by the MMD, why did he find it necessary to have it normalised by bringing it before Parliament if it was legitimate?

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, I stated, in my ministerial statement, that the point of order by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central arose from the statement by the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development. Since you directed that this issue be clarified through a ministerial statement by the Ministry of Justice, this is why there is this statement today. I have not stated, in my statement, that this matter will be brought to be regularised. The provisions of the law that the collection of the levy is, indeed, legal are very clear.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, these fees were introduced by the MMD at a time when there were no toll gates. Now that the Government has introduced toll gates which, in any case, amount to double taxation, how is it going to reconcile this with the user fee and give relief to the citizens of Zambia?

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, I think the directive I got from you was to clarify the question of the legality of the collection of this levy by the ERB. I was not requested to delve into the issues of toll gates, and I think discussing toll gates is not my domain.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Sir, at the time when this matter was tabled, arising from the point of order that the hon. Member for Monze Central raised, I asked the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development a specific question, which is recorded in the Hansard. His answer to my question was that there is already work going on between his ministry and the Ministry of Justice to bring a Bill before the House to enable the Government to regularise this particular user fee. Can the hon. Minister of Justice, now, confirm that the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development actually misled us.

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development is not charged with the role of interpreting the law. He is a lay person with regard to such matters. Therefore, it is for that reason that I believe that this particular question was referred to the Ministry of Justice. Interpreting the law is the task that I have undertaken this afternoon. Hon. Members should not crucify the hon. Minister for not having the expertise to interpret the law.

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, in response …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, on several occasions, you have guided that the jurisdiction to interpret the law of this country does not lie with the Executive or Legislature, but the Judiciary. Is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to suggest that his ministry is interpreting the law when it has no jurisdiction to do so? If the Ministry of Justice wants to interpret the law, he should go to court.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Functionally, and I confirm, interpretation of the law is the task of the Judiciary. There is no doubt about its basis is the separation of powers. However, as I understand this discourse, the Executive, in administering the law, will inevitably have to interpret it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: If there is a controversy regarding the interpretation of the law, the final arbiter is the court. Even here, if we are not satisfied with an explanation by the hon. Minister of Justice, those doors are open for hon. Members to seek legal recourse from the Judiciary. That is what I have always said.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, knowing that the Executive has the power to interpret the law, can the hon. Minister of Justice, then, confirm that the answer by the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development, in his response to the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, was wrong?

Mr Kabimba: Mr Speaker, whatever answer was given by my colleague, the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development, has been vitiated by the statement I have given this afternoon. I really do not think that we should delve into who was wrong or right on that day. This issue has been clarified.

I thank you, Sir.
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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWERS

WOMEN’S CLUBS FUNDING IN LUKULU WEST CONSTITUENCY

178. Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West) asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health how many women’s clubs in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency had been funded in 2013.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Mrs Kazunga): Mr Speaker, at the time this question was put, there were eight women’s clubs that were to be funded in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency in 2013. These were as follows:

    Club                                Amount (K)

Kalonda                             6,800
Makwengula                              9,850
Wazanga Farmers’ Group                     6,950
Tukumonene                             6,950
Ngongo                            10,000
Washala Washala                          1,880
Liseli                                10,000
Luvuzi Lima                               2,090

Total                                54,520

 Currently, the eight cheques are with the cashier at the ministry. 

Mr Muntanga interjected.    

Ms Kazunga: No, they can collect them from the ministry. 

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, you are addressing the Speaker.

Ms Kazunga: Yes, Sir. I just got a bit distracted. 

Mr Speaker, currently, the cheques for the eight women’s clubs in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency are ready for collection from our cashier at the ministry headquarters.

Sir, kindly note that this is a demand-driven programme and women’s clubs have to ensure that they submit bankable project proposals and that all necessary application requirements are fulfilled for quicker response from our ministry. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, we will go to the ministry to collect those cheques. However, is the hon. Minister aware that some of the women’s clubs she mentioned, like Lubuzwa, are in Lukulu East and not Lukulu West?

Mr Kazunga: Mr Speaker, we bundled up all the women’s clubs in Lukulu District and some of the cheques are still being processed. I would also like to advise the hon. Member of Parliament that he cannot collect the cheques from the ministry. They will be taken to the respective areas by officers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member may have whispered that.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, I am surprised that the ministry is not able to conduct a thorough research to answer the questions that are posed to it. Indeed, some of the clubs that the hon. Minister mentioned are in my constituency, but I did not ask this question. Therefore, how many clubs have been funded in Lukulu West, as demanded by the area hon. Member of Parliament?

Ms Kazunga: Mr Speaker, at the time the cheques were prepared, the constituencies fell under one district. 

Interruptions

Ms Kazunga: Yes!

Mrs Banda: Landeni fye. Mwilaasukana nabo.

Mrs Kazunga: As I said, all the cheques were bundled together, hence the answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Ministry of Gender and Child Development will consider allocating four hammer mills to Lukulu West like it did to Luampa.

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Before you raise your point of order, is it procedural?

Mr Mutelo: Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the question is clear. It seeks to find out how many women’s clubs have been funded in Lukulu West Constituency and not Lukulu or Mitete districts. Is the hon. Minister in order to say that at the time the clubs were being funded, they fell under one district? The question is specifically about Lukulu West Constituency. I seek your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The question seeks to find out from the hon. Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health how many women’s clubs in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency have been funded in 2013. 

Therefore, if the information has been bundled, for the sake of progress, I would urge the hon. Minister to accordingly acknowledge this fact. 

The hon. Member for Monze Central may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the women’s clubs in Lukulu West have been asking for hammer mills. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the ministry will consider giving Lukulu West four harmer mills, as it did in Luampa Constituency, if that will ever be done.

Mrs Kazunga: Mr Speaker, I am not answering questions directed at the Ministry of Gender and Child Development. I am answering questions directed at the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kazunga: Mr Speaker, in response to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Lukulu West, four clubs in Lukulu West have been funded.

I thank you, Sir.    

Mrs Kapata: Elyo tatwakabapele ndemweba. Mulebeba icishinka. Balatutuka insele abantu aba.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, I have to migrate from my usual place because the equipment is not working properly. 

Sir, it seems these cheques were prepared a long time ago, maybe three months ago, because it was about that time that Lukulu District was split into two districts. 

Mrs Kazunga: Mr Speaker, the cheque preparation process takes a bit of time. At the time when these cheques were approved, we had to wait for them to be cut. The cheque distribution is not only pending in Lukulu West, but also in many other areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kazunga: When the money is available …

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, now that the cheques are ready and are at the office of the cashier, when does the ministry intend to take them to the people of Lukulu West?

Mrs Kazunga: Mr Speaker, certainly, it will be in less than three weeks.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, it is worrying that we have spent so much time on this question, but answers are not forthcoming. The hon. Minister indicated that the cheques were bundled together and that is why she cannot give a definite answer to the hon. Member who wishes to know from the hon. Minister how many women’s clubs benefited from these cheques in Lukulu West. My question is: Would it not be prudent, hon. Minister, to ask for time from the Hon. Mr Speaker to unbundle these cheques so that you come back and give the hon. Member of Parliament …

Mr Mwila: Awe!

Mr Nkombo: Awe, what?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, would it not be better for the hon. Minister to unbundle these cheques so that, at an appropriate time, she can give the hon. Member of Parliament the answer that he deserves?

Mrs Kazunga: Mr Speaker, at the time when we approved the proposals and not the cheques, the cheques for Lukulu West and Lukulu East constituencies were bundled together. However, I have since clarified that the actual number of women’s clubs that benefitted in the hon. Member’s constituency are four.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

LUNGA CLINIC AND DISTRICT HOSPITAL CONSTRUCTION IN KASEMPA CONSTITUENCY

179.  Mr Pande (Kasempa) asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    when the construction of Lunga Clinic in Kasempa Parliamentary Constituency would be completed;

(b)    when the clinic would be officially opened; and

(c)    when the construction of a district hospital in Kasempa would commence.

    The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Speaker, construction of Lunga Clinic in Kasempa Parliamentary Constituency commenced in 2004. It was one of the projects funded by the African Development Bank (ADB) Health Sector Support Project II which ran from 2001 to 2008. Construction of the clinic stalled in 2008, following the closure of the loan agreement before the works could be completed. The Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, early this year, undertook an assessment to ascertain work done and work that needs to be done. The Government has prioritised the completion of the project and will include it in the 2014 Infrastructure Operational Plan.

Mr Speaker, the clinic is scheduled to be opened to the public after the completion of the works in 2015. 

Mr Speaker, the Government has a programme of constructing district hospitals in all districts. However, priority is being given to those districts without hospitals. At the moment, Kasempa is serviced by Mukinge Mission Hospital. Construction of a district hospital is earmarked for 2016.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, we have been told that the works at Lunga Clinic stalled before the closure of the loan agreement. Therefore, when the works resume, will the same contractor be engaged or a new one? 

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, it will be a new contractor. The contractor, GM International, withdrew.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Minister of Health regarding prioritising the construction of district hospitals in areas where there are none, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is aware that there is a big challenge because mission hospitals, such as Mukinge in Kasempa and Kaleni in Ikeleng’i District, are overwhelmed. This is so because they are servicing people from various districts? Would it not be prudent to prioritise the construction of district hospitals in Kasempa and Ikeleng’i to ease the strain on the mission hospitals?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member has just re-emphasised what has already been said and that is a district hospital will be constructed in Kasempa in 2016. Therefore, it has been prioritised.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, if I got the hon. Minister correctly, he said that the construction of the clinic was initiated or funded by the ADB. If the ADB had projected that it would fund the construction of the clinic, what happened for the clinic not have been completed by the time it was pulling out?

Dr Chikusu: Mr Speaker, the loan agreement expired and, therefore, the ADB could not continue with the works.

I thank you, Sir.

SIKONGO HIGH BOARDING SCHOOL

180. Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education when Sikongo Boarding High School would be opened.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Sikongo Boarding Secondary School is expected to be opened in 2015. The contractor has just completed Phase I of the works which comprised of classrooms, staff houses, hostels for pupils, laboratories, a kitchen and a dining room. Phase II of the works comprising oxidation ponds, surface water drainage and water and electricity reticulation shall commence soon.

I thank you, Sir.

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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs – K118,811,205).

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Prof. Luo): Mr Chairperson, before the end of business yesterday, I was just informing this august House that the National Heritage Commission (NHC) has undertaken a lot of work across the country in the last one year at most of the National Heritage Sites in our chiefdoms. 

We note with pride, Sir, that over this one year, the NHC has put up appropriate visitor facilities at selected sites which include, Lumangwe and Kabulume falls, Chishimba and Kalambo falls in the Northern Province, the Mighty Victoria Falls and other tourist sites. In addition, the NHC will also continue to undertake its obligation of identifying and documenting heritage sites, inspecting, monitoring and protecting the heritage sources countrywide. 

Mr Chairperson, under chiefs’ affairs, we have conducted rehabilitation works at the Litunga’s Palace in Mongu and Chief Luchembe’s Palace in Mpika. We have also done the drawings and secured works for fourteen chiefs’ palaces out of which two, namely the Paramount Chief Kalonga Gawa Undi of Katete District and Paramount Chief Mpezeni of Chipata, will only be rehabilitated while there will be construction at the rest of the palaces. I will lay the list of distribution on the Table so that the hon. Members of Parliament may know which of their chiefs’ palaces will be constructed.

Sir, we have also continued to procure vehicles for chiefs and have since distributed those that were procured. We have procured 650 uniforms for all the retainers. We have continued to make sure that our chiefs are paid every month. Contrary to the assertion that there are chiefs who have not been paid, everybody, including the retainers, has been paid.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry has also safeguarded the welfare of chiefs to ensure that when they are sick, their hospital bills are taken care of. The ministry also facilitated the funerals of the chiefs who died, may their souls rest in peace.

Sir, the ministry has also rehabilitated and refurbished the Railway Museum in Livingstone. In addition, with the support of the Jewish community, we, as a ministry, have added a Jewish Museum. We have also been working on having the Barotse Landscape recognised as a World Heritage Site. The dossier has since been submitted to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) and the good news is that it was accepted for inscription as a World Heritage Site. This process has started and a technical team was sent to Zambia. We had the pleasure to take the team to Barotseland to argue our case to ensure that the final evaluation is positive.

Mr Chairperson, we have argued that, unlike what happens in the rest of the world when there are floods and everybody rushes to the rescue of the people, the people of Barotseland have devised African mechanisms that have enabled them to deal and live with the floods. They even have structures like the mounds and the graveyards which they have preserved for years. Since there is a lot of international discourse around climate change, we think that Zambia, through the Barotselandscape, can be a good example of how people can survive the conditions of climate change.

Sir, as regards crosscutting issues, as a ministry, we have successfully launched the Campaign against Child Marriages and Male Circumcision. To pre-empt any debate which may arise on this issue, I want to state that this has been a partnership between the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Gender and Child Development, Ministry of Youth and Sport, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Ministry of Justice, among others. This is because although this is a rural phenomenon and must sit with the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, we believe that it has gender connotations, a gender-based violence connotation, health implications and primary health care implications.

Mr Chairperson, currently, with the support of the United Nations Fund for Population Activities (UNFPA) and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), the ministry is carrying out the mapping exercise of child marriages. Furthermore, we are now conducting a situation analysis of child marriages in Zambia so that we understand the causes. With the support of the Department for International Development (DFID), we are going to employ a national co-ordinator who will be based at the ministry to help us succeed in this exercise.

Sir, the other issue that the chiefs have been championing is the Campaign on Sanitation and Access to Clean Water. To this effect, three chiefdoms have been declared open defecation free. We have Chief Macha as the champion at international level for the promotion of good sanitation. The good news is that my ministry will now employ, with the support of UNICEF, a monitoring and evaluation specialist so that we can report and be part of the international discourse. 

Mr Chairperson, chiefs have also been identified and trained to campaign for the total elimination of mother-to-child-transmission of the human immuno-deficiency virus/acquired immuno-deficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS). Sooner than later, we will be launching a new programme in the next one week for the female chiefs to champion the preservation of peace and unity in this country.

Sir, in terms of human resource, we have filled most of the vacancies across the country. So, my ministry is represented countrywide up to village level because that is where our village headmen are. We also have a Ministerial Work Plan for 2014 to 2015. This will be the guiding principle of how my ministry will be moving.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the support that we need for the offices, although transport will continue to be a challenge, we are working on ensuring that our staff have adequate transport and also offices from where to work. 

Mr Speaker, my ministry did not have a planning unit. Therefore, it has now obtained authority to create a Department of Planning because we believe that this is an important ministry that will be planning for all hon. Members of Parliament who represent the rural areas.

Sir, with regard to the House of Chiefs, we have had a successful First Session in the House of Chiefs which was held from 22nd to 26th July, 2013. 

The proceedings went well and some constructive resolutions were made. We expect that the second session of the House of Chiefs will take place from 2nd to 6th December 2013. Furthermore, we have finalised the Chiefs Policy which will be presented to the Second Session of the House of Chiefs for consideration.

Sir, we also have a Traditional Leadership Bill which, as far as our ministry is concerned, is ready for presentation to Cabinet. We await clearance from the Ministry of Justice so that once Cabinet approves it, it is brought to this House.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of traditional affairs, we have been supporting the hosting of traditional ceremonies and have done up to seventy ceremonies countrywide so far. 

Mr Chairperson, despite the hard work that my staff and my hon. Deputy Ministers have put into this ministry to give it a positive face, we still do face challenges. The challenges are mostly related to support as our budget is very limited and we need more staff so that we are present in all the districts. We need more transport and we also need to make sure that we have adequate material resources, especially at chiefdom level, to ensure that our chiefs are adequately supported. 

Sir, furthermore, my ministry inherited a huge bill. We continue to dismantle this bill, but it has implications on our budget because we have to continue sharing the resources that we have to pay back debt. As was debated in this House before, we still have challenges of funding to the museums to enable them to play the roles that they are supposed to. We still have interests in opening up new museums as will be the case in Mambwe and Kabwe. The one in Kabwe will be a mining museum. However, all this will require financial support.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of programs for 2014, we intend to continue with the documentation of our success stories. We will make sure that we share some of the success stories with the House, especially on how we are pushing for the cottage industry as it is new in Zambia. Secondly, we want to document the succession processes so that we reduce the wrangles. Some of the wrangles for which the Government is being blamed have arisen because of the fact that there has been no documentation and history has been re-written. We need to correct this situation and reconstruct history. 

Mr Chairperson, we also want to document our traditions in collaboration with our institutions of higher learning and other resource persons. We want to continue with a lot of research and writings on a lot of issues in relation to our customs and traditions in this country. For example, if you go to a traditional ceremony for the first time, you will not know what it is about. You will not know what the Kuomboka or Mutomboko ceremonies are about because there is no book that speaks about them. We also want to produce a bulletin which will contain all the issues that I am talking about.

Mr Chairperson, we also want to create a code of ethics for our chiefs. For example, in Ghana, we learnt that you cannot find a chief in a club or a drinking place and I think that should also apply to us. We have to develop an alternative system from the courts of law of resolving chieftaincy wrangles. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2014, we will start excavation works …

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order!

Prof. Luo: … at the Kalambo Falls because of its association with the evolution of man. We also plan to put up excavation trails for tourists who would like to have a tourist experience in a place like that. 

Furthermore, Sir, my ministry has embarked on activities around establishing a historic cultural museum in Mambwe and a mining museum in Kabwe. We want to launch the campaign of promoting knowledge in our chiefdoms on issues of cervical cancer and breast cancer, especially amongst the womenfolk. 

Sir, in terms of chiefdom development, we have gone into discussions with the private sector to encourage them to adopt chiefdoms in which they will support the cottage industry through the corporate social responsibility. The discussions are proving to be very positive. We intend to do much more with the budgetary allocation from the Ministry of Finance in line with our ministry’s slogan, ‘One Chiefdom, Three to Five Cottages’.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Prof. Luo: You can question as much as you wish, but you will benefit.

Mr Chairperson, the department is set to launch the digital database of all chiefdoms for use in Government institutions and by members of the public. We will continue constructing palaces in 2014 so that we increase on the fourteen that we have earmarked for 2013. We will also push our chiefs through training, as we believe that they can benefit from leadership training and partnership brokering so that they can be able to identify development partners. What is happening now is that chiefs are giving out huge chunks of land while their people remain in abject poverty. They should be able to know how to negotiate with these partners for the sake of their people. If somebody wants land, they should be able to negotiate shares using the land as their equity. 

Sir, I hope the hon. Members of Parliament seated in this August House have appreciated a ministry that they underplayed. This is one of the ministries of the moment that will change rural Zambia …

Laughter 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Prof. Luo: They can question as much as they wish but, in a few years, a lot of them will remember this debate and the submission from the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. I will lay the document on the Table.

Thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo laid the paper on the Table.

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to say that I totally support the existence of our chiefs. However, I do not agree with the abnormality that the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs should be one of the biggest ministries. I wish to appeal to all right thinking persons not to agree with that statement.

Mr Livune: That is right!

Ms Lubezhi: Sir, when the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs says her ministry should be one of the biggest ministries, is the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs in competition with any other ministry? I thought each ministry was big in its own way and within its own jurisdiction. Are the ministries competing with each other? Should I take it that, maybe, that is the reason the wrangles in the Patriotic Front (PF) will never end?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Balwanina supremacy. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, under our current situation, the chiefdoms are already catered for by the line ministries. Therefore, when the hon. Minister says that the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs will be the biggest ministry, in terms of industrialisation, where does that place the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry? What will the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry be doing? In the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, there was talk about clusters based on indigenous based-raw materials in a given area. For example, in Namwala, the ministry was thinking of coming up with a cluster to manufacture glue out of cattle hooves. So, what industry is the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs going to bring to Namwala? Is the ministry not going to have friction with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry? The Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry already has expertise which can advise in the coming up of these industries. However, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs does not have the skills and expertise.

Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) falls under the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and there is a reason for that. I think when it comes to industrialisation, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs must consider itself a department under the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

Mr Chairperson, in my view, this Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is supposed to be playing an advisory role. Since it is dealing with chiefdoms, it is supposed to bring the concerns of the chiefdoms to the line ministries. For example, I am glad that when donating a tractor to Namwala, the ministry was accompanied by the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock because that is the ministry in charge of tractors. Therefore, it was wise decision for the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to have taken along the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock. In what capacity was the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs going to donate a tractor?

Mr Chairperson, as I said earlier, this ministry is supposed to play an advisory role. If it goes to the chiefdoms in Namwala and finds that there are no schools, it should come back to the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education to tell it that Namwala is in need of schools. In the same way, if Namawala is in need of clinics, the ministry should report this to the Ministry of Health. The hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is misleading us when she says that her ministry will be the biggest when we have got line ministries. You will note that when His Excellency the President came to this House, he did not even mention anything to do with the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. 

Mr Chairperson, when going to the four chiefdoms in Namwala, the hon. Minister uses the Monze/Niko Road and I expect her to come back to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication to report the state of that road. That is the role the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is supposed to play instead of talking about things which fall under the ambit of line ministries. The hon. Minister, in her statement, talked about the policy of burying chiefs. The ministry has been burying chiefs. I remember when we lost Chief Mungaila of the Ila speaking people in Namwala, may his soul rest in peace, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government came to Namwala and gave him a good send off. What is new about burying chiefs?

Laughter

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about the construction of palaces. I will not be shocked to find out that no palace, among the list of the eighteen palaces she has laid on the Table, will be constructed in the Southern Province. I expect the Ministry of Traditional Chiefs to be more …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! The right terminology is, “Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.”

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for that correction. I expect this ministry to be in touch with reality. It is supposed to know the traditions of this country. It is so mesmerising that in PF Government, the hon. Cabinet Minister can send His Honour the Vice-President to officiate at a traditional ceremony. That is the trend in this ministry. For the past two consecutive years, His Honour the Vice-President has been officiating at Shimunenga in Maala in Namwala. He is sent by the hon. Cabinet Minister.

Laughter

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, as a result, His Honour the Vice-President has won himself the Ethnic Commitment Award. I was very glad when I saw that clip because it fully depicted our tradition in Namwala with our rich drums being played. That award was supposed to have gone to the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, but since she delegates His Honour the Vice-President, she missed it. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister brought up the idea of coming up with industries in each chiefdom, but how are places such as Munali and Senanga, which have no chiefs, going to benefit? Do hon. Ministers even sit in Cabinet meetings and pass memoranda on what the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is supposed to do? These people can never ever stop mesmerising one.

Mr Chairperson, I expect the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to stay within its jurisdiction of constructing traditional arenas for traditional ceremonies instead of talking about industries. Very soon, we will see this ministry and the Ministry Commerce, Trade and Industry jumping at each other’s throats.

Sir, this ministry is supposed to lobby for sites such as the Mausoleum to be recognised as National Heritage Sites. We are not supposed to have situations where the Republican President tells off the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. The Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs should have been the one answerable to that. Instead of telling His Honour the Vice-President off over the grass that has turned brown, it should have been the ‘Ministry of Traditional Chiefs.’

Laughter

 Ms Lubezhi: Whatever they are called. This ministry is not on the ground and does not know what is happening.

Sir, if you remember, there was a question about tours in this House. When I went to the Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA), I was happy when I was told that Namwala was given five towers. I was shocked to find out that one of them was for Chief Chilyabo in Itezhi-itezhi, which now falls under Central Province, as it is no longer part of the Southern Province, according to the PF Government. The other one is for Chief Kaingu who is also in Itezhi-itezhi. However, these chiefdoms were put under Namwala District when they were supposed to be under Itezhi-tezhi. It is surprising to have a ministry which has decided to put in an effort in coming up with industries instead of concentrating on knowing which chiefdom falls under which district and province. 

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is supposed to help solving succession wrangles. However, what we are seeing now is that it is fueling them. It is inciting wrangles by enticing these chiefs. The chiefs are told that when they support the Government of the day, they will be gazetted and if they do not attend a PF Campaign Rally, they will be degazetted.  
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Nkombo: Aah!

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, instead of the ministry helping in these succession wrangles, it has worsened them. The chiefs are supposed to work as unifying factors. 

Mr Muntanga: That is right!

Ms Lubezhi: They should be an institution of development, but what we are seeing, under this ministry …

Mrs Kawandami: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah! Question!

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Kawandami: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to state that ceremonies are partisan.

Mr Muntanga: The same traditional ceremonies.

Mrs Kawandami: Yes, the traditional ceremonies or meetings which are held in this country. Is she in order to accuse the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs of being partisan? I beg your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister is taking copious notes and I am sure that when she winds up debate, she will address that issue. 

Can you continue, hon. Member for Namwala.

Hon. Members: Unleash Belemu.

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, I thank you and I would not want to unleash Belemu here.

Interruptions

Ms Lubezhi: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that this institution of traditional leaders is supposed to be a unifying factor, but what we are seeing now, under the PF, are a lot of …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Ms Lubezhi: … divisions. The PF Government has told the traditional leaders not to entertain hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition. Some hon. Members of Parliament do not even visit palaces because of those people who have fueled these divisions, and yet some of us regard these institutions as unifying ones.

Mr Chairperson, when you look at the allocation to this ministry, even among themselves, they do not agree with it. This is because the figure that has been allocated is much lower in comparison to some departments in the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. So, how can the hon. Minister say that, someday, this ministry will be one of the biggest ministries? That is why I am saying that anyone who is a right thinking Zambian …

Mr Nkombo: Like you.

Ms Lubezhi: … should not support this idea.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Chairperson, we, from the cultural fraternity, have been worried about the nomenclature of this ministry. Today, it has come out very clearly that the ministry has nothing to do with cultural development. Its focus is entirely on the chiefs. It is no wonder that Hon. Lubezhi, hon. Member for Namwala has debated in the manner she has.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has made several pronouncements which are not backed by policies or figures in the Yellow Book. She made a pronouncement some time last year that she was going to bring a concept paper that was going to show how her ministry was going to be a very big ministry. She stated that she was going to distribute that concept paper, but we are still waiting for it.

Sir, the PF Government has lost yet another opportunity through which it was supposed to demonstrate to the people of Zambia how serious it is in developing this country. We had advised the hon. Minister to look into the name of the ministry, but she argued that there was nothing wrong with it. Now, we can see, like she can see for herself, that the name itself is consuming her.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, we had advised her to call the ministry the Ministry of Culture and Industries or Rural Development, but she resisted. Now, we have a shipwreck. The pirates are attacking the ship …

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: … and  it is sinking.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Pabwato fye.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, if this was the Ministry of Culture, through the African Renaissance and post modernism, it would have been a very good ministry. This is because we, in the cultural fraternity, are advising African leaders to use culture in development. The kind of development that has been embarked on from Independence has failed us and there is nowhere in the whole world where this type of development is taking place. It is only in Africa.

Mr Chairperson, through the African Renaissance, we have regrouped the problems of Africa. Culture and education have been put together, economics, environmental development, science and technology and energy and transport have been left as stand-alones. However, the interrogation of poverty in Africa, particularly in the rural areas, should be done through culture. However, because of the name of this ministry, the focus, today, is on the chiefs. We are seeing the interference and encroachment of this Government in the affairs of the chiefdoms. Through post modernism, we were supposed to rebirth, recreate and renew ourselves through the hon. Ministers ministry, although she has failed to demonstrate how her ministry interfaces with other ministries.

Mr Chairperson, when you look at education, you will notice that it is embedded in culture. Therefore, education is not about letters or figures. It is about imparting knowledge, values and skills in the learner. However, these attributes I have talked about cannot only necessarily be imparted through literacy or formal education, but also through informal or vocational education. 

Mr Chairperson, since the hon. Minister speaks without policies and she makes pronouncements which are not backed by figures, she has failed to demonstrate the importance of education or how her ministry interfaces with other ministries. Those of us who are grounded in this epistemology …

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: … are left wondering whether the hon. Minister will do anything in future, as she promises. 

Sir, look at the interface between her ministry and the environment. Today, we have a new term known as bio-culture which simply means that culture and bio-diversity are actually interfacing. We can go on and on, but we have clearly seen that the hon. Minister’s focus is purely to interfere in chiefdoms.

Laughter 

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I would like to help the hon. Minister because she assumes that this knowledge can easily be usurped. Madam, you need to study this field like we did. Do not take things for granted. 

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, we are not supposed to look at chiefs alone. We are supposed to look at chiefdoms. Chiefdoms have institutional and legal frameworks, particularly in the Western Province. Every chiefdom has communities and this is one level of institutional framework. There are also village headmen, the council of elders and the advisors to the chief. Immediately you single out one person, the chief, you sideline the whole institutional framework. In the same way, when you adopt a chief, as the PF is doing, you alienate a big chunk of the institutional framework. 

For instance, Sir, let us look at how a chief is installed. It is true that there are individualistic norms and values in each tribe, but there are some universal ones that you can look at when installing a chief. A council of elders will select a person to be installed as chief and that person will go through certain rituals. The rest of the community only knows who the chief will be at the time of installation. 

However, what we are seeing under the Government …

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: … is interference. This Government wants to appoint chiefs and install them on behalf of tribes. 

Mr Sikazwe: Question!

Dr Kaingu: Sir, a chief is not supposed to be paid money like this Government is doing. Any money that goes to a chief, by virtue of his/her status, must be surrendered to the chiefdom. It is the task of a chiefdom to look after a chief. It is the community’s responsibility to build a palace for their chief. When a Government pays a chief, it is corruption.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Yes! 

I am talking about a chief and not a thief. 

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: When a Government builds a palace for a chief, it is corruption. If you want to help a chief, you have to go through the communities. Empower the communities so that they can build palaces for their chiefs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, empower the communities so that they can look after their chiefs. What is going on, at the moment, is corruption. We can see from the Yellow Book that the figures are predominantly for the chiefs. There is nothing for chiefdoms. 

Mr Chairperson, upon inspection of your budget and having listened to the hon. Minister’s policy statement, I realised that it is primarily focused on chiefs, and yet we were supposed to focus on the development of chiefdoms. 

Mr Chairperson, through indigenous development, which looks at participative and bottom up development, we are supposed to advise, as Hon. Moono Lubezhi has said, other ministries on how to take development to the rural areas. After all, in rural areas, we do not need borrowed money. Every rural area you go to in Zambia is endowed with natural resources. All we need are opportunities. Create opportunities for us and we will be up and running.

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, we do not need borrowed money or the Eurobond to develop rural areas. All we need are opportunities. Create opportunities for us and we will be up and running. That is the interface that we want. 

With these few words, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I would like to take the words of the previous debaters as my own and I want to thank the hon. Minister for giving a very flambouyant policy statement. 

Sir, the budget for 2013 and 2014 are K93,000 and K118,000, respectively. I wonder how the hon. Minister will achieve her positive dream of making her ministry the biggest. This reminds me of one Jimmy Cliff who sang a song about re-making the world. I think that this is the mode that the hon. Minister has found herself in. 

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: Sir, this world cannot be remade because it is constantly moving. 

Sir, I want to change the complexion of my debate a little bit to see if I can be of value to the hon. Minister, who said so many things. She talked about having sent chiefs to China and Japan, converting our traditional Royal Highnesses into tourists. 

Hon. Government Minister: Question!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I expected the hon. Minister, as she spoke about models such as Botswana, Namibia and South Africa, to have talked about one of the richest tribes on this continent, the Royal Bafokeng Nation, headed by one Chief Kgosi Leruo Molotlegi. 

Mr Chairperson, I thought that she would dwell on this nation to ensure that we borrow from this noble benevolent gentleman who used the endowment of the natural resources in his chiefdom to empower his subjects. 

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, for clarification’s sake and to enable us to follow the argument, where is the chief you have named from? 

Mr Nkombo: He is the chief of Royal Bafokeng Nation in Rustenburg, South Africa. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to come out of the mode of re-making the world and follow the model of the Chief of the Royal Bafokeng Nation, where they produce platinum. 

Mr Chairperson, I come from Mazabuka where we have a failed programme at Munali. Why has it failed? It is because the chief was not capacitated, then, as the case is now, by the Government to constructively engage the investors for the benefit of his subjects.

Mr Chairperson, chiefs are supposed to be used as tools of positive development. They must be at the centre of the development agenda and not be sent to political rallies like one chief in Chipata who made a public announcement when my colleague, Hon. Mtolo Phiri, was running for the seat. That is abusing our Royal Highnesses.

Mr Mtolo: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, we need to have seminars to educate our chiefs that when an investor comes, they should, under normal circumstances, be the first point of interface.

Mr Mtolo: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the headmen must be carried along. Hon. Dr Kaingu spoke about headmen. They are a very integral part of the institutional framework of chiefdoms. At no stage should they be left on the wayside. In the hon. Ministers policy statement, I do not remember her mentioning the importance of headmen. Maybe, I dozed off. The Headman is the one who is closest to the people.

Mr Chairperson, I will give a quick example of the many developments that are going on in the North-Western Province. Chief Kalilele of Solwezi has been lamenting the displacement of Zambians by these developments that are coming, and yet the chiefs are just standing arms akimbo watching things happening. In Chief Musele’s Chiefdom …

Mr Mwanza: Senior Chief.

Mr Nkombo: … Senior Chief Musele’s Chiefdom, …

Mr Mwanza: In my Constituency.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … there is a problem concerning the Chisoba Dam. The Zambians, the indigenous and traditional owners of the land, are being displaced on a daily basis to a point where the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) put a protection order which this PF Government, I will refer to it collectively this point as it seats on one Cabinet, decided to ignore to build a dam for the Kalumbila Project.

Mr Muntanga: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, for that to be done, people had to be displaced. A balance ought to be struck, at every given stage, among the investors, the Government and the traditional owners of the land and all parties that are involved. Why was ZEMA established only to have its protection order cancelled?

Sir, I watched, in dismay, on Muvi TV how the locals in Chief Chiawa’s area chastised Her Royal Highness because it is believed that she sold some land to investors to establish a company and got some shares in exchange. This is the mode that the PF Government is in, at the moment, where it wants to take care of a handful of people called chiefs and leave the whole country behind. It is unacceptable. We shall not allow the Government to just deal with a few individuals. 

Mr Chairperson, bringing my argument closer to home, my own Chief Mwanachingwala, in the area where I am a headman ...

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Cap. 12 says you cannot lie on the Floor of this House. I am a bonafide headman. I am Headman Nkombo, in my village. The Government should build a palace for   Chief Mwanachingwala as well. 

Mr Chairperson, as the Government builds palaces, it should not go about it the way it distributes the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) by icing the cake in bits and pieces. The Government should budget properly. If there are 300 palaces, the Government should put all the monies together so that there is no chief who feels discriminated by the act. For whom will the eighteen or fourteen palaces be? They will be for the Government’s favourite people. They have moved the jiggies and sumo biscuits from Parliament into the chiefdoms.

Interruptions

Mr Livune: And more biscuits.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to declare interest. The declaration of an interest is to the effect that, the chiefdom that I am going to speak about is where I come from in Malole in the Shilubemba Kingdom.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo:  I want to be clear on this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister requires to be told, in no uncertain terms, …

Mr Livune: Yes, Garry.

Mr Nkombo: … that time has come to resolve that controversy in the Shilubemba Kingdom. Right or wrong, the hon. Minister must bite the bullet now …

Mr Mufalali: Tell her.

Mr Nkombo: … and stop making these flambouyant statements because perceptions are normally louder than facts. I will speak based on what I have read. I have been reading this detailed column from the Shilubemba by Mwinelubemba, so they call him, who is due for installation any time soon.

Mr Mtolo: 15th 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, in order for the Head of State not to suffer another embarrassment, such as what happened when the boss of Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) said this is rhetoric, time has come for you to lock yourselves in a room and resolve the impasse in that Shilubemba Kingdom.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The Government must do it as a matter of urgency. It must not just say that the gentleman was wrongly appointed. No, that is not right.

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: That is my chief.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ooh!

Mr Mbulakulima: Who are you querying?

Mr Nkombo: The perception that I am speaking about here is that when he was Chief Nkula, I stand …

Dr Kaingu: Mwamba.

Mr Nkombo: … Mwamba. When he was Chief Mwamba, my uncle, the Chief of the Bemba people, was chased from that Chiefdom by the PF Government. That is not a perception.

Mr Mufalali: Tell them.

Mr Livune: Shame.

Mr Nkombo: The Shilubemba elders simply said, “Bapepekeni. Tukamona kuntanshi,” meaning, chase him. We will see what comes ahead of you.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, in Tonga we say, “Kabuca uleta tunji” meaning that not all days are the same.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, he bade farewell to the people of Mwamba Kingdom and the Head of State and said, “Wherever I am going, I will go for good,” or something to that effect. It was barely one month that the council of elders, my relatives …

Mr Livune: Future president.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … in Malole, gave Mr Sosala a symbol of authority.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Whether there are minutes or no minutes, please, deal with that matter.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Deal with it squarely. That is a kingdom.

Mr Mwanza: That is right.

Mr Nkombo: It is not these small areas which you toy around with. No. The same can be said about the Lunda Kingdom. I want to declare another interest. I married a woman from the North-Western Province.

Mr Mwanza: Well done.

Mr Nkombo: Go and harmonise …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … with Senior Chief Ishindi. Where you think he is wrong, sit him down. He is not a …

Mr Milambo: Small boy.

Mr Nkombo: … difficult human being. Sit down to argue until you agree.

Dr Kaingu: Do not even go there.

Mr Nkombo: The Government should not give itself too much work of just making pronouncements. One hon. Minister shoots a missile from this side and another one answers from the other side. No. If the Government respects these chiefs, it should sit down with them.

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Ni future president wamene muona uyu.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, at the commencement of this PF Government, this very party you see seated on your right, His Honour the Vice-President, Dr Guy Scott, made a pronouncement …

Dr Kaingu: No. Edgar Lungu.

Mr Nkombo: … that it is not the Government’s business to attend traditional ceremonies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame.

Mr Nkombo: He said it. Today, the hon. Minister must now stand on a pedestal and say he has attended so many ceremonies. To me, that is a contradiction which, in psychology, they call cognisant disonance. 

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, when you do things that you do not believe, it is called cognisant disonance. There is a need for the Government to harmonise its actions and thoughts. It simply needs to sort out these issues that are taking place. It should not flush out chiefs because they are installed through the will of the people. If a wrong individual is appointed to be installed as a chief, let us hear from the Government where the bone of contention arises.

Mr Chairperson, in the PF, you can see that there are two factions. There is the so-called Wynter Kabimba group and the GBM group. In the Shilubemba, there is group which is in support of the installation of Mr Sosala. Therefore, which group is saying it does not want him other than the PF itself?

Mr Livune: Shame.

Mr Nkombo: I would like to be educated − the Hon. Member for Malole is folding his hands. Please, in your spare time, tell me what the bone of contention is.

Hon. Opposition Members: From the big team!

Mr Nkombo: Who is heading the other group that beat up Mr Hakainde Hichilema when he was summoned to pay a courtesy call? Who are they? Could they be the same fellows who were wielding machetes here? This is because the trend is the same.

Mr Chairperson, chiefs need to be respected and that is my fundamental statement. Therefore, if the Government respects chiefs, it should engage them effectively and with respect. It is fundamental that it does that. No one should say I am campaigning, like I heard the hon. Minister of Home Affairs heckling, and Mr Chairperson you did not protect me, but he said, “Ale kampena”.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: I cannot campaign here. The point is that the Bemba people need a chief and they needed one like yesterday. 

Mr Mbulakulima: That is right!

Hon. Opposition Members: By Government!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, if, like Kumar, the people say this is rhetoric and  go ahead and install a chief, they be will arrested, and yet there is no manpower in the police force, as we heard yesterday.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, when Chief Ishindi installed someone, the Government arrested the one who was installed, leaving the one who was installing. What kind of rule of law is that?

Sir, our Royal Highnesses require utmost respect. That is what my advice to the hon. Minister today is.

Take a leaf of the Royal Bafokeng people in South Africa and engage your chiefs so that you can create wealth for your people. Instead of sending them for tours and sightseeing in China, Guangzhou or Beijing, you can take them to Rustenburg in South Africa where they can even go by coach to see for themselves then they will come back and implement what they will have learnt.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate. I will not be long in my debate, but there are a few issues I want to highlight resulting from the speech by the hon. Minister.

The first one, Sir, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Mr Chipungu: … are the traditional ceremonies, as mentioned by the hon. Minister.

Mr Chairperson, the role of the ministry is not very clear. What is the hon. Minister or her ministry supposed to do? One would expect that the actual organisation of the traditional ceremonies is handled by her staff and the ministry but, unfortunately, this is not the case. Instead, it is let loose. It is entirely handled by the District Commissioners (DCs), as the case was in our constituency in the recent ceremony. 

 Also, Sir, it is the politics at play during the ceremonies. Sometimes, it becomes irrelevant for the organisers to invite the hon. Members of Parliament, especially from the Opposition, to attend these ceremonies. First of all, they are not recognised because of the political affiliation. Hence, it becomes really difficult for some of the hon. Members of Parliament to participate effectively despite that these ceremonies are held in their respective constituencies. Therefore, my appeal to the hon. Minister is that she must face reality and instruct those that organise these ceremonies, starting from the provincial administration going downwards, to remove the politics that are at play.

Mr Chairperson, I also note that the recruitment of staff at district level is not very good. Most of the officers are not suitably qualified, hence they do not know what they are supposed to do. They are easily swayed by other officers like the DCs. One would believe that these are professional men and women but, alas, they fall prey to politicians …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

The Chairperson asked the hon. Members to lift their cards and insert them again because of a technical fault.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was talking about the organisation of traditional ceremonies. I was saying that the hon. Minister must help us to clearly understand the role of the Government in the organisation of traditional ceremonies. What I know is that their organisation is done by the local committee and not the Government. Therefore, the hon. Minister must come out very clearly on this issue.

Sir, the other issue I would like to highlight is on the succession wrangles that are currently being witnessed throughout the country. I believe that, once again, it is politics at play.

Mr Mbewe: Cheap politics!

Mr Chipungu: Chieftaincy is highly politicised and each time there is a succession ceremony, there is so much interference by the politicians who field their own candidates.

Mr Chairperson, we have also seen some situations where traditional leaders from elsewhere help out in the installation of a chief in another area. I would like the hon. Minister, when she winds up debate, to be very clear on this.

Sir, is it permissible for a chief from a given chiefdom to take charge in another chiefdom and install a chief? This is the beginning of the wrangles in as far as succession is concerned.

Mr Chairperson, a family tree may be clearly known, but because of politics, as I have already indicated, we see some form of interference. Further, it is so embarrassing to see our traditional leaders actively participating in politics. They even stand at political rallies to show support to parties of their choice. This is not right because once the chief takes sides, it means that he or she is dividing the chiefdom. I think the hon. Minister needs to be very categorical about this issue. I welcome the Chiefs Policy and hope it will clearly spell out how far chiefs can go into politics. 

Mr Chairperson, boundary disputes are also affecting the proper running of chiefdoms. In Rufunsa, we have a boundary dispute between Chief Bundabunda and Chief Mpashya. This has been going on for some time now. My humble request is for the hon. Minister to look into that issue. My vice-president, Hon. Dr Kaingu, is very categorical about culture being under this ministry. 

Sir, since we are talking about culture, it is important that the hon. Minister looks at the name that was taken away from us. We had a name, which was Lusaka International Airport. I will never stop talking about this for as long as I live. I, like the people of Rufunsa, did not see any value in changing the name of the airport from Lusaka International Airport to Kenneth Kaunda International Airport.

Mr Chairperson, I respect the former Head of State. However, I think it is not good to change names just for the sake of doing so. Headman Lusaka did quite a lot for this country by giving up the land where his village was situated in order to create the capital city where we are all living today. Therefore, it is important that some very important institutions continue being named after this very senior headman, Lusaka. I am sure it is not too late to name an institution or place after our former Head of State. We could name one of the universities under construction after him and leave this airport with its original name. 

Hon. Government Member: Wabepa fye!

Mr Chipungu: Yes, you can say wabepafye, but do not forget that you cannot be in power perpetually.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, we will impress upon whichever Government may come into power to consider reversing the name of the airport.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the Head pertaining to the Ministry …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. I was alarmed by the statement that was made by the hon. Minister …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Mr Mwiimbu: … in which she proudly indicated that her Government had applied to UNESCO to declare the Barotse Plains a world heritage site. The little I know on heritage sites is that they should not, in any way, be changed or altered from their current state. It, therefore, follows that the PF Government has the intention of ensuring that the people of the Western Province continue wallowing in poverty. It, therefore, entails that whatever developmental projects the PF wants to undertake in the Barotse Plains cannot be undertaken because it will be a heritage site.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Those who are independent of wisdom and are making running commentarie should know that when a place is declared a heritage site, you cannot alter it. You maintain the site in its original state. Even if you discovered oil, which I am made to understand is present in the Barotse Plains, it cannot be mined. There can be no drilling in the Barotse Plains once it is recognised as a world heritage site because it would have to be maintained as it is. What is the source of pride of declaring the Barotse Plains a heritage site when the people of the Western Province are not going to benefit from that declaration? They will not benefit in any way. Unless we are saying that they will benefit from impoverishment, there is no benefit to the people of the Western Province in the recognition of the Barotse Plains as a world heritage site.

Mr Muntanga: How?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to reconsider this particular issue. I can give examples of areas that have been declared heritage sites …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can I have order on my right!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, the nearest place I can cite is the place where Fred Joe was formerly located in Lusaka. That area was declared a heritage site and because of that, various developers have been denied the right to develop the area because it is a heritage site. That is what the law says. What is the motive of declaring an area, as vast as the Barotse Plains, a heritage site? The expanse of those plains covers almost the entire Western Province and that is what the Government wants to declare a heritage site. This means that there will be no development there. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to reconsider this particular issue.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue which I would like to …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am made to understand that there was no consultation over the recognition of the Barotse Plains as a world heritage site.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue which I would like to raise relates to the current heritage sites. In Monze, we have a heritage site called Fort Monze. This particular site has been neglected by the previous governments, and likewise, the current Government which has continued doing the same. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure that a road is constructed leading to this particular site and workers be employed so that the site is kept in a state that can attract visits by tourists.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue which I would like to raise is one which is topical. I recall that when we were in a pact with our colleagues on your right, we used to complain about our Royal Highnesses being abused by being paraded at political rallies. Together with the PF, we used to state that this would come to an end once we came into power. Fortunately, our colleagues are now in power on their own, but they are perpetuating the same abuses pertaining to chiefs, THAT they were complaining about then. We have noted, with concern, that the abuse of chiefs has continued. If any anything, it is worse than before. We have also noted that whenever there are pending by-elections in a particular area, chiefs in that location are called to Lusaka.

Mr Livune: Shame. Shemuna, bane.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, discussions are held so that they support a PF candidate in a particular area. That is very unfortunate. As a result of that sad occurrence, the dignity of chiefs is being lowered. All of us would want to respect our chiefs as our traditional leaders. Therefore, let us continue according them the dignity that they deserve.

Mr Chairperson, I have also noted that the Government has been making pronouncements that it is going to build palaces for traditional rulers. This is a good gesture, but we should also bear in mind that traditions in this country differ from chiefdom to chiefdom. In certain chiefdoms, a chief cannot inherit the palace of a late chief. What will happen to a palace that may have been constructed at high a cost by the Government when the succeeding chief will not be able to occupy it?

Mr Chairperson, in my view, I tend to think it would be prudent, on the part of the Government, to provide grants to those who are seating chiefs so that they build their own houses, which they will bequeath to their families after they are gone. If you build a palace for a chief to be occupied by his successor, it will not work in certain jurisdictions. There is a need to consult over these matters.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue which I would like to raise relates to the wanton allocation of land to investors. I have noted that my colleagues have addressed this issue. However, I would like to say that a number of our relatives and friends have been displaced as a result of careless allocation of land to investors. Chiefs are custodians of the land on behalf of their subjects. The land is not theirs. We have noted, with concern, that selfish chiefs, and I am not saying all of them, have been selling land and even exchanging it for a bottle of whiskey at the expense of their subjects. Why should we allow our people to be displaced? 

Mr Chairperson, in Lusaka and Central provinces, we have noted, with concern, a number of foreign investors displacing our people. Our people are now being displaced and subjected to moving to areas where there are no social services because their land has been sold to investors. We must protect our people. That is our responsibility, as leaders of this country.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy to note that the hon. Minister has raised this particular issue. However, I hope that she will ensure that it is addressed. If you drive from Lusaka Town to Chisamba, you will note that the land on both sides of the Great North Road has been sold. If you check the people who are occupying those pieces of land, the majority of them are foreigners. Our people have been displaced. We must be responsible and protect our people. It is our duty as leaders. If we do not do that, posterity will judge us harshly.

Mr Livune: Very harshly.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am aware that in Livingstone, from the Victoria Falls Bridge to Kazungula Town, the entire frontage of the Zambezi River has been allocated to foreigners. Our people have no access to the Zambezi River. Why should we allow that? From Siavonga Town up to Mapatizya, the entire frontage of the Lake Kariba has been given away to the so-called foreign investors. The people who were occupying the land that is currently the Kariba Dam have no access to the water of the dam. Why should we allow a situation where our own people are being allowed to wallow in poverty and we, collectively, as leaders, are watching helplessly? It is our responsibility to address this situation. The same is now happening in Kafue. The entire frontage of the Kafue River is now being occupied by foreigners at the expense of the locals.

Mr Livune: Is there an hon. Member of Parliament in Kafue?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Livune, please, note that this will be the last warning before you are sent out.

Hon. Member for Monze Central, you can continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for the area in question has asked me to talk about that issue because he does not want to have a confrontation with those who are allocating land in that particular area. He is doing a very good job. Are you not (pointing in Mr Mwaliteta’s direction)?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, he is doing a good job and I want to speak on his behalf. I am appealing on behalf of the people of Zambia that, as leaders, let us be seen to protect the interest of our people. I know the hon. Minister has the capacity to address this issue. She should liaise with her colleagues and resolve this matter.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to make some comments on this particular Head. I would like to focus on the statement by the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs that his ministry has applied to UNESCO …

The Chairperson: Her ministry.

Prof. Lungwangwa: I am sorry. Her ministry has applied to UNESCO for permission to declare the Barotse Plains a world heritage site. That is extremely unfortunate. First of all, let me refer to what a world heritage site is, according to UNESCO World Heritage Convention (WHC). A world heritage site is a natural or man-made site, area or structure recognised as being of outstanding international importance and, therefore, deserving protection. Anybody who has interacted with UNESCO, especially the WHC, knows that protection is the key in world heritage sites. This means that from the point a particular area is declared a world heritage site, no alteration or any new development will take place without the permission of UNESCO-WHC. 

Sir, the question that begs very serious answers is what protection her ministry has seen to be fit to deserve application to UNESCO –WHC for the declaration of the Barotse Plains as a world heritage site? How much research and consultation has the ministry done? What consensus has been reached with the people of the Western Province for such a very serious step of applying to UNESCO for the Barotse Plains to be declared a world heritage site? I think that there have not been serious consultations and this is extremely unfortunate.

Mr Chairperson, the Barotse Plains is the pride of the people of the Western Province. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: We call it Lyondo, Ngulu and Libala. We even have praise for it. Lyondo lyang’uwa lyasilila neke lyamulilobebi lyameibebi lya mulilo kule. Lyondo lokondomana ezishimba mungonda. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: That is the pride we have in the Barotse Plain and a step like that one should have been taken after very serious consultations. 

Mr Chairperson, if the application, as the hon. Minister says, has been approved, what are the implications to the people of the Barotse Plains? It means that from the time the WHC approves the application, everything in those plains will be stagnant. It will be static. There will not be any new development and this means that no innovation affecting the livelihood of the people shall be undertaken. 

Sir, that is the place where the majority of the people fish from. The rice that you eat, popularly known as Mongu rice, is from there. The shrines of our royal establishment are on those plains. The cashew nut plantations, cattle rearing and a lot of other aspects affecting the lives of the people are drawn from the Barotse Plains, including what is increasingly becoming a reality that on the base of the rivers in the Barotse Plains are alluvial diamonds. Furthermore, it is increasingly being understood that there could be oil at the base of the Barotse Plains. Of course, this awaits scientific evidence. However, if there can be oil in Angola, what about on the plains in the Western Province? 

Now, Sir, when these declarations are made by UNESCO-WHC it means that all these developments will not take place thereby the ministry condemning the people of the Western Province to perpetual poverty. Already, 64 per cent of the people of the Western Province are living in extreme poverty and this move is directed at accelerating poverty to the highest levels because there will not be any innovation, creativity or imagination in terms of development in the Barotse Plains. This is totally unacceptable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Sir, we would like the hon. Minister to reconsider this step which the hon. Minister has taken without any serious consultations, research or supportive data. This is unacceptable. If this is a policy, we would like her to reconsider and reverse it because it is not in the interest of the people of the Western Province. Those plains you see are where the names of some of us are drawn from. They are synonymous with the plains. The name Lungwangwa, for example, means flooding waters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: When the people settled in the plains, the first floods they saw were mei alungwangwa, meaning the flooding waters. We are proud of that. Do not disturb the history, culture and pride of the people. Let us find indogenous means of developing …

Laughter

Prof. Lungwangwa: … the Barotse Plains, as Hon. Kaingu has articulated. There are many ways we can explore, in consultation with the people, to actually undertake relevant, acceptable and ‘indogenous’ development processes which will be in the interest of the people and not stagnating development in the Barotse Plains. That is not acceptable. 

Mr Chairperson, this is extremely disturbing and I am sure …

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to rise on a point of order. Is Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, who is debating so well, in order to pronounce a word that has confused the people on your right without interpreting or paraphrasing so that the people on your right can understand what he means by that word which has confused them? I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Which word?

Mr Livune: The word is ‘indogenous’, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

My serious ruling is that it appears that the one who was confused by the use of that word is the person who has raised the point of order.

You can continue, Prof. Lungwangwa.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that the step that the ministry has taken without serious consultation should be reversed. It is not in the interest of the people of the Western Province and anybody else. The Barotse Plains are already a heritage site for the people of the Western Province and, by extension, the rest of Zambia, like other sites are in the country. If the ministry would like to identify heritage sites in the Western Province, we have the cordon line bordering Zambia and Angola. The ministry can apply to UNESCO and find a way of actually sourcing money so that the cordon can be constructed and maintained so that Contagious Bovine Pleuropneumonia (CBPP) can be controlled. If the ministry wants to identify heritage sites in the Western Province, we have a road called Lihule Road.

Mr Lungu: What is that?

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, mukwakwa wa lihule, Lihule Road. This is a road spanning from Kalabo all the way to Livingstone which was used by people who used to go to Johannesburg, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Wenela.

Prof. Lungwangwa: … Wenela. They used that road walking on foot. This road cuts across a very big proportion of the Western Province and it is there just waiting to be considered a national heritage site by the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional affairs.

Hon. Opposition Member: Lihule Road.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, the Government can source funds for the Lihule Road. It is very dear to us and those who used it. It has a lot of history. Lihule Road. Lihule. 

Hon. Opposition Members: What is that?

The Chairperson: Order!

For a long time, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has been asking for the meaning of the term ‘lihule’. Maybe, you can do him a favour by telling him what it means.

Laughter

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, ‘lihule’ means prostitute.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, that has a very significant cultural meaning behind it. This is because some people used to lose their property on that road. I wish the hon. Minister could conduct a research on Lihule Road, find money to work on it and preserve it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, that would be more meaningful than condemning the people living on the Barotse Plains to total and perpetual under-development. That is totally unacceptable. I am sure that if the people of the Barotse Plains were to be consulted, in their entirety, there would be total rejection of this unacceptable step which the ministry has taken which will, to a large extent, condemn them to underdevelopment.

Mr Chairperson, I thought that I should bring this very important insight into what the hon. Minister proudly pronounced as if it is a worthwhile and acceptable direction. It is not. It is not in the interest of the people of the Barotse Plains and neither is it in the interest of the natural resources, be it the flora and fauna of the Barotse Plains, including whatever is in them whether on the surface, under the rivers or underground.

Mr Muntanga: Or on the roads.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, this step is not in the interest of the development of the Barotse Plains. There are still opportunities to develop the plains to the highest levels in order to realise improvements in the quality of life of the people and this is not the way to do it. It must be condemned in the strongest …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … sense possible.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, it must also be rejected out rightly.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much and let me thank all the people that have debated, whether positively or negatively …

Mr Muntanga: Question!

Prof. Luo: … because I believe that success is based on listening from both negative and positive views, which can be used in the future.

Mr Livune: That is right!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I want to start by, first of all, commenting on what was said by the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala who was debating with a lot of anger. I was just wondering whether Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo was in the House because he sits a bit nearer to her and in case she developed high blood pressure and, maybe, got into a cardiac arrest, he would be there to resuscitate her.

Laughter

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I was very pleased to see Hon. Brig-Gen. Chituwo because he was in close proximity in case of resuscitation.

Laughter

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, let me assure this hon. Member of Parliament that in a government, there is never any competition. All wings of the Government are complementary to each other.  I know that my ministry is new so it will take us time to understand it. I went to town to talk about it to help us all start understanding this. If you had to take statistics in this august House, you would find that the majority of hon. Members of Parliament actually represent the rural areas for which the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is responsible. Therefore, when I said that the ministry would be the largest, I meant it in the sense that we have a presence up to village level. 

Mr Chairperson, somebody here said that they did not hear the word ‘headman’ in my policy statement and I am surprised because, in fact, I said that apart from us establishing offices in all the districts, we are privileged because we go up to village level, which is governed by village headmen. Therefore, I have repeated myself for the sake of those who did not hear me the first time. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that cottage industry is cottage industry. I was not talking about commerce and industry. I was talking about cottage industry just like the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education would talk about some innovation which is a mini scientific industry which would, then, be taken to the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to be developed into a bigger industry. Development starts small and that is what a cottage industry is about. It is activities at a minor level which grow to bigger levels that bring about development. Therefore, what the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs is promoting is cottage industry and I said in my earlier debate that that is how all these industrialised countries started. The issue that was raised by Hon. Nkombo when he cited the example of a chief in South Africa is exactly that. You take the resources that you have and then translate them into an industry that benefits your local people and when I talked about the cottage industry, I did not say that it would start in Lusaka. I said it will start in the villages. Therefore, the people who referred to a bottom up approach did, in fact, refer to exactly what the Ministry of Chiefs And Traditional Affairs is doing.

Mr Chairperson, there was a disquiet about the ministry not having capacity. I think that hon. Members should take time to come and see the people we are employing. We are carefully selecting who will work in our ministry. 

Mr Chairperson, owing to the nature of the ministry, we are employing social scientists, anthropologists, curators and economists to help us move this process forward. We know exactly what we want and where we are going.

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: Somebody said that the ministry has no policy. In fact, it does not only have a policy, but also a strategic plan. 

Mr Chairperson, someone also asked what was new about burying a chief. There is something different between burying a chief and umupabi (a poor person). During the burial of a chief, there is pomp and splendour and every time, there is something new. Those of you who do not know about traditions and culture can learn something from there.

Sir, let me now move to an accusation that a Cabinet Minister sent His Honour the Vice-President to officiate at a traditional ceremony. When chiefs have traditional ceremonies, they invite the Head of State to officiate. His Excellency the President reserves the right to delegate. So, if he delegates His Honour the Vice-President, he goes. Therefore, if any of you have a problem with His Honour the Vice-President attending traditional ceremonies, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Prof. Luo: … tell us so that we inform your chiefs that you do not want His Honour the Vice-President. If you would rather have an hon. Cabinet Minister and, as hon. Cabinet Ministers, we will come.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the accusation that we use these traditional ceremonies to entice chiefs into politics, my dears, traditional ceremonies have been there since time immemorial. They are not a creation of the PF. What we have done is to continue supporting them.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: The hon. Minister on the Floor has been in this House for a very long time. She understands that the correct nomenclature to address hon. Members of Parliament is “hon. Member of Parliament.” Is she in order, therefore, to refer to the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi as “someone,” and just now, she said “my dears.” 

Laughter  

The Chairperson: Order!

Well, she will take into account that point of order as she debates. 

Please, continue, hon. Minister.

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, as you know, I am the hon. Minister for Kings, Queens and Witchcraft. So, be careful, …

Laughter

Prof. Luo: … and I have some in my pockets.

Laughter

Prof. Luo: Hon. Members, there was a disquiet when somebody said that I had promised this august House that I would bring a concept paper for the hon. Members of Parliament to know what we are doing in the ministry. This afternoon, I want to state that I did not only bring a concept paper here and laid it on the Table, but also went further to request the Clerk of the National Assembly to organise a workshop. Those that wanted to know came to the workshop. So, I do not know where the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala was. However, since she decided to miss this workshop, I can give her a one-on-one workshop in my office.

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lubezhi: I am glad that I have given you something to debate.

Laughter 

Prof. Luo: The hon. Member of Parliament for Mwandi raised quite a number of issues. When I talked about child marriages, I actually spoke about the interface and the careful way in which we have come together, as hon. Ministers, to address the issue. We do not exist as individuals. We actually exist as a team. Not only that, the hon. Member of Parliament for Senga Hill will remember that when we went to launch a programme in Mbala, in Senga Hill, I offered him my seat on the plane to give him the comfort that he is part of this whole thing. So, these innuendos that we do not do things together …

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Ulula!

Mr Simbao: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I am totally shocked that the hon. Minister has brought me into her debate in the manner she has done. I was begged to be a part of this programme. There were two planes. She was on a different plane and I was on the plane which carried the American Ambassador. I did not take up her seat in the plane. The programme was happening in my constituency and, therefore, I had to travel there. Is she in order to debate in a manner which portrays that she was doing me a favour when it was my right to be in my constituency at that time?

The Chairperson: Well, she wanted you to be comfortable.

Please, continue, hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Bakuulula, Simbao! Wenzobisa!

The Chairperson: Order!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I just want to share with my hon. Colleagues here that we really need to learn from our history. Those of us who were not there, maybe, because of our age may find time to go to the national archives and read about the development process of Zambia, the role that the traditional leaders played in the development of this country. In those days, when development was sweeping through the country, the chiefs and headmen were the statisticians, road constructors and lawyers. We really need to credit them with a lot. If we are really serious, as a nation, we should try to use as much of our resources as possible to bring development to our nation.

Sir, in relation to the wrangles that are in the chiefdoms, I heard some hon. Members talk about the indiscriminate allocation of land. When the ministry moves in to settle land disputes, for some of the hon. Members, this becomes an issue of interference. You have to tell me whether, in this august House, you have passed a law which says that the chiefs are above the law. If you have passed a law, which I have not seen, I would like you to show it to me. If it is not there, then, it means that when there is an issue with Their Royal Highnesses, the onus is on us to deal with it as the Government.

Mr Chairperson, I will choose not to comment and be drawn into any discussion of the wrangles that are happening anywhere, both in the North-Western Province and Northern Province. Those who are interested to discuss the matters with me will do so in my office. I made a comment on this issue in this august House because it was a Question. However, I, as Prof. Luo, have decided, and I am sure you have seen that it does not matter what statements are put on the blogs, to be quiet because I do not want to be drawn into that. I am not enjoying the blame that is being apportioned to me because everybody knows that we are following the law.

Sir, in relation to the Barotse Plains, I am actually surprised that hon. Members can come to this august House and speak in the manner that they have done because, for example, the Victoria Falls is a world heritage site. However, have you not seen development at the Victoria Falls? 

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: Development has taken place there. 

Mr Kalaba: Tabayako aba, imwe! They are busy politicking mu Lusaka bonse aba!

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member, who is speaking and addressing the issues we raised, not aware that under the WHC, you cannot devolve or re-devolve without the express permission of …

Interruptions 

Hon. Opposition Members: They do not know.

Mr Chairperson: Order! Order!

Please, let us be orderly.

Continue, hon. Member for Monze Central.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am aware that people have been fighting for independence of wisdom. They can continue to do so.

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: One of them is …

The Chairperson: Ignore them because I have already guided.

You may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, even the local law states that once an area is declared a heritage site, you merely conserve it and not alter it.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Is the hon. Minister in order to contradict the laws and conventions without expressing or indicating the exceptions, if any, and mislead the nation and blame us who have raised these concerns?

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, as you debate, please, take that point of order into account. 

Prof. Luo:  Mr Chairperson, I was interrupted before I could even explain so, I will go ahead. I wanted to give the Victoria Falls as an example because the whole idea is to protect that particular site so that it is not destroyed. However, …

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order!

She is addressing the Chair.

Prof. Luo: … the reason permission has to be sought from the WHC is that we do want people to just start building, as is happening everywhere else, on the plains and destroy them in the process. We are protecting the Barotselandscape for that reason and …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Prof. Luo: Hold on. Let me tell those of you who are in this august House …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon, Minister, maybe, to avoid them interfering with your debate, address me so that I can protect you. Please, give the hon. Minister time to wind up her debate.

Prof. Luo: The Barotseland Landscape …

Mr Miyutu rose.

The Chairperson: No more points of order.

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order!

I have said no more points of order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, there was research done on the Barotse Plains and we have the research results in our office. There were consultations made with the Barotse Royal Establishment and the people of the Western Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Prof. Luo: If you were not there, you can put in your claim.

Sir, I want to conclude with an issue that was raised by the hon. Member for Rufunsa regarding the installation of chiefs and he asked me to be categorical in my response. According to the Chiefs Act, the only chief that is allowed to select and appoint another chief is the Litunga. Every other chief must allow the royal establishment to sit and choose a chief. At the selection process, the council, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs as well as other Government wings must be present. Afterwards, those minutes are brought for consideration for gazetting. If there are any chiefs that interfere with the selection of other chiefs, then, they are not doing the right thing.

However, Sir, for the installation and the celebrations, other chiefs are allowed to be involved and so is any other member of the public, including hon. Members of Parliament. However, the selection is the preserve of the royal establishment, following the procedures that have been laid down by that particular custom.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, allow me to thank my colleagues for the contributions they have made. Those who still have issues are free to come and discuss them with either myself, Hon. Kawandami, Hon. Taundi or our staff. I further thank my hon. Deputy Ministers and my entire staff at the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs for reshaping that ministry and making it one to reckon with.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development – K353,211,807).

The Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Yaluma): Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Mr Yaluma ... I wish to thank you for this opportunity to present the 2014 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance for the well presented Budget whose theme is “Moving Forward to Consolidated Growth and Social Justice in Peace and Unity.” This theme best describes our aspirations as a nation that wants to develop and my ministry, being a custodian of three important economic sectors, is key in moving the nation forward.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry’s mandate is to develop and manage mineral energy and water resources in a sustainable manner for the benefit of the people of Zambia. As such, the role of my ministry in fostering the economic growth and development of this country cannot be over emphasised. As you may be aware, Zambia’s economic growth is synonymous with the development of the mining sector while the energy and water sectors provide a foundation and backbone on which all of our development processes depend.

Sir, for this reason, my ministry, since the PF came into power, has continued pursuing policy measures and programmes that ensure that the contribution of these sectors to national development is enhanced.

Mr Chairperson, my statement on the ministry’s Budget Estimate for 2014 will be in two parts. In the first part, I will present the highlights of the achievements, in the past one year, in three sectors, after which, I will move onto giving priority programmes for 2014. Now, I will look at the performance of 2013.

Mining

Mr Chairperson, the performance of the mining sector continued to improve during 2013, despite the price declines that were experienced in the year. This is evident from the number of projects that came on board and the increase in mineral production. Copper production increased from 305,083 tonnes during the first half of 2012 to 348,900 tonnes for 2013. It is projected to increase to 912,300 tonnes by the end of 2013. The increase in copper production is attributed to the expansion projects at existing mines and the commencement of production at Mulyashi and Lubambe Copper mines. In addition, one large-scale copper project known as the Sentinel Mine Project commenced construction. The project is expected to begin commercial production in 2014.

Mr Chairperson, the performance of the major programmes under the ministry during the period under review was as follows:

(a)    Revision of the Legal and Regulatory Framework for the Mining Sector
the Review of the Mines and Minerals Development Act of 2008 was completed and the Bill was drafted in readiness for presentation to this House. The revision of the Act and its regulations is aimed at streamlining the monitoring and regulation of the mining sector in order to ensure maximum benefits for the country. In addition, the Mineral Resource Development Policy is now in place;
(b)    Modernisation of Mines Department
the programme is intended to enhance capacity of the ministry to effectively monitor and regulate the mining sector. It includes activities such as development of online mining rights administration system, acquisition of mobile laboratory facilities and establishment of mineral statistics data base;{mospagebreak}

(c)    Provision of Geological Information

    the ministry continued geological mapping of parts of Kawambwa and Chembe districts. Further, the ministry, with the support of the Chinese Government, commenced geological and geochemical mapping of Kasama as well as the geochemical mapping of 250,000 square meters of the Northern part of the country. To improve the storage facilities for drill cores, the ministry commenced construction of a core shed in Kapopo in Chibombo District in order to expedite exploration by private companies and prevent holding of ground for speculative purposes. Regulations were issued to provide for minimum exploration expenditures.

(d)    Improving Staffing Levels in the Ministry
    three vacant positions in technical departments were filled in 2013. With this improvement in staffing levels, the ministry activities in terms of monitoring of exploration and mining activities and generation of geological information increased; 
(e)    Marketing of Gemstones
    Zambia is among the major producers of emeralds in the world and is expected to be among the major gemstone trading centres. For this reason, the auctioning of emeralds within the country commenced in 2013. As I speak, there is an auction going at Inter-Continental and this is a third auction we have had this year. Two successful auctions on emeralds were held in the country and the third one is going on. As the Government, we want to ensure that all gemstones are marketed locally. That will not only ensure maximum benefits from the resources, but also transparency in the sector; 
(f)    Exploration of Oil and Gas
    I know that this touches Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa very much, especially where it concerns the plains. Very soon, we will hit that issue. We have just embarked on that. The performance of exploration licences for oil and gas issued in 2011 was reviewed and those that were non-compliant were issued with default notices. In addition, thirty-one oil blocks were advertised and nine licences are expected to be issued to five companies by the end of the year;
(g)    Development of Gemstone Mining
the ministry commenced its assessment of gemstone mines with a view to enhance production. Once the assessment is completed, the ministry will come up with interventions to improve production at the mines. My ministry has equally made significant progress in the implementation of programmes targeted at increasing the electricity generation capacity; and
(h)    Fuel Storage facilities and also Exploring Ways of Developing Renewable and Alternative Energy Sources.
    to increase the electricity generation capacity and eliminate load shedding, my ministry continued with the construction of hydro power stations both large and mini. The projects included the construction of the Kafue Gorge Lower, Itezhi-tezhi and the extension of the Kariba North Bank Hydro Power Stations. The construction of the Kariba North Bank Extension has reached an advanced stage and is scheduled for commissioning by the first quarter of 2014. 

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the development of mini-hydro power projects, preliminary works on Lunzuwa and Lusuwasi commenced while the development of Muzhila Mini-Hydro Power Project was at procurement stage. The procurement process is expected to be completed by the end of 2013. In addition, transmission line development projects for Pensulo/Kasama 330 kV line and Pensulo/Musolo projects have commenced. Furthermore, financing agreements were signed with regard to the transmission lines for Itezhi-tezhi, Mumbwa, Lusaka West and Leopards Hill to Luangwa. In order to provide a framework for facilitating the additional public and private investments in the power sector, my ministry developed the electricity grid code regulation. The regulations are in effect as we speak. 

Mr Chairperson, in the renewable energy subsector, a tender for the construction of the solar mini-grids with a combined capacity of 30 mW in five provinces, namely Eastern, Luapula, North-Western and Western provinces was advertised. Positive feedback from the firms within the sub-sector was received. Negotiations with preferred bidders are expected to be completed by the end of 2013. 

Sir, in the petroleum sub-sector, my ministry continued with the construction of the bulk fuel storage tanks as planned. The tanks in Lusaka were commissioned in August this year. Construction of the fuel storage depot in Mpika is almost complete and is expected to be commissioned by the end of this year. On the other hand, procurement procedures for the…

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left!

 There are nice female voices that are actually interfering with my understanding.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Can we, please, have order. 

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Speaker, construction of the fuel storage depots in Mpika is almost complete and is expected to be commissioned by the end of this year. On the other hand, procurement procedures for the Mongu Fuel Depot are currently under way. My ministry also commenced the process of construction of rural fueling stations in Luwingu and Mporokoso districts in the northern part of the country. In 2013, a tender for the design and supervision of the two filling stations was issued. Negotiations with the most evaluated bidder are expected to be conducted and concluded by the end of this year.

Mr Chairperson, significant progress was made in the implementation of the projects to enhance the fuel distribution system at Ndola Fuel Terminal. The bitumen drumming plants at the Ndola Fuel Terminal and at Indeni Petroleum Refinery were revamped. 

The revamping of the bitumen plant will bring enormous benefits to the economy in terms of availability of bitumen locally as well the reduction in price of fuel.

Water Resource Management and Development

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, my ministry undertook activities aimed at developing and managing the country’s water resources. The activities included construction and rehabilitation of dams and boreholes. During the period under review, my ministry rehabilitated several dams. Of late, my ministry has been facing challenges in ground water development because of unreliable and obsolete drilling equipment. To address this problem, my ministry is in the process of purchasing six sets of drilling rigs with accessories such as compressors. The procurement of the rigs is expected to be completed by the end of this year. The purchase of these rigs will assist the Government to quickly respond to water-related emergencies such as drought and diseases.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy to inform the House that out of the twenty-one dams planned for construction, a total of six dams were constructed while 113 dams were maintained and rehabilitated out of the planned 119 dams.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to report to this House that during the period under review, activities targeted at developing and rehabilitating boreholes for emergencies, strategic institutions and trachoma control were planned to be undertaken in various parts of the country and that a total of 174 boreholes were developed and rehabilitated.

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, the Government, through my ministry, also acceded to the Zambia Watercourse Commission (ZAMCOM) Agreement. The objective of this agreement is to promote the equitable and reasonable utilisation of water resources of the Zambezi water course and the efficient management and sustainable management of the water resources. By being part of this agreement, the country will position itself to tap the benefits that will be derived from the management and development of the water resources and foster regional co-oporation using the region’s water resources. 

The Ministry’s Priority Programmes in 2014

Mr Chairperson, my ministry’s total budget for 2014 is K353,211,807. Hon. Members of this House will note that my budget this year is K280 million less than the 2013 Budget Estimates. This reduction is on account of donor support that was provided towards the Rural Electrification Programme in the 2013 Budget.

Mr Chairperson, with these resources, my ministry’s focus will be as follows:

Mining

Mr Chairperson, building on the achievements made this year, in 2014, my ministry will continue to focus, enhance compliance to regulations by both small and large mining companies while improving measures to attract investment in the sector. Specific programmes which include the following are being considered;

(a)    improving availability of geological information: exploration is an important phase of the mining that is critical to the development and management of a mine. The ministry will, therefore, continue geological mapping of areas in Luapula Province and the Northern Province in order to enhance the availability of geological information; 

(b)    improving the mining rights licensing system: the beginning point for efficient monitoring and regulation of mining activities is licensing. Therefore, the ministry will continue with programmes to improve the mining rights licensing system. Works to complete the computerisation of the licensing system, which has been both manual and electronic, are currently ongoing. This will eventually lead to the construction of an online application and reporting system;

(c)    empowering Zambians to own productive small-scale mines: for mining to make a meaningful contribution to the development of our country, there is a need for our people to be actively involved in the sector. As a starting point, my Government is focusing on empowering Zambians to own productive small-scale mines by undertaking measures which include merging some small-scale gemstone mining plots in order to attract investment in the sector;

(d)    mordernisation of the Mines Department:  to improve the monitoring and regulation of the mining sector, the Government will, in the 2014 Budget, continue to mordenise the Mines Department. The mordernisation programme is focused on developing, monitoring and regulatory tools, regulation and mechanism to ensure that developments in the mining sector translate into benefits for the people of Zambia. The expected outputs of the programme are as follows;

(i)    an efficient and transparent licensing system;

(ii)    an effective monitoring and regulatory framework for efficient data capturing and sharing among Government departments for revenue collection. The monitoring and regulatory framework will be extended to capture data on all minerals, a shift from the current situation where the focus is mainly on copper; and

(iii)    upgraded laboratory facilities for efficient monitoring of mining operations as well as reducing export of mineral samples for the analysis. This is expected to contribute toward the reduction of exploration costs; 

(e)    development of the gemstone sector: in the gemstone sub sector, my ministry will continue to implement measures to promote local marketing of gemstones by encouraging auctioning of the gemstones within Zambia as well as setting up of a transparent marketing system. In addition, the Government will encourage the value-addition to Zambia’s wide range of gemstones;

(f)    mineral exploration and resources survey: the ministry will continue to promote exploration of non-traditional mineral commodities. The focus will be on the minerals for which there have been enquires by potential investors and these include rare earth elements, limestone, gypsum, clays and aluminous rocks; and

(g)    mine inspections: the ministry intends to increase capacity at mine safety departments so that there is pro-activity. It will ensure adherence to mine safety and health regulations by the mining companies, both small and large, in order to reduce mine accidents, promote health and reduce environmental pollution and degradation. This will involve equipping the laboratory and testing workshop and sensitising small-scale miners on safety, health and environment. 

In the same vein, Mr Chair, resources have been provided …

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I know what you mean when you say Mr Chair, but the people out there might begin to say, so, the Chair is Mr.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Please, use Mr Chairperson or Chairman.

Mr Yaluma: That is noted Mr Chairperson.

In the same vein, Mr Chairperson, resources have been provided in next year’s Budget for the Mine Safety Department to conduct studies in residential areas purported to be affected by mining activities. This will include areas such as Kankoyo Township.

Mr Chairperson, I am confident that the mining sector will continue to grow in 2014 because of the level of investment that has gone into it and the confidence the investors have in our leadership. The Government will ensure that this growth translates into sustainable development of the country. 

Energy

Mr Chairperson, in 2014, my ministry will focus on various programmes to improve security of supply. In particular, my ministry will focus on ensuring that all outstanding works on different projects are completed as scheduled. To this effect, projects in the petroleum sector, such as the construction of the Solwezi Fuel Depot, will be commissioned by 2014 while the construction of Mongu Depot is expected to be completed by the end of 2014. 

Electricity Sub-sector

Mr Chairperson, in 2014, my ministry shall, put in place measures aimed at further improving the environment for the electricity sub-sector to thrive. In particular, we shall review the Energy Regulation Act in order to improve enforcement in the sector. Further, my ministry will continue to implement programmes and projects aimed at increasing electricity generation. 

Renewable Energy Sub-sector

Sir, in 2014, the ministry will continue to seriously look into the issue of promoting and developing bio-fuels in the country. The promotion of this activity is intended to bring down the price of fuel through various blending mechanisms with unleaded petrol and diesel. This measure will also create employment through the various out-grower schemes that will be set up to produce stockfeed such as jatropha and sugarcane plantations, among other things, for the production of bio-energy. 

 Mr Chairperson, my ministry will also pursue the completion of developing a feed-in tariff. Once developed, the policy will be one of the instruments that will be used to promote development of the renewable energy sub-sector.

Sir, one of the things that will also be done is the introduction of a legal framework for the promotion of the energy sector as a whole. This follows a presidential directive made during the opening of Parliament in September, 2013, that we revise the law in order to promote renewable energy. The Bill will, therefore, not only focus on renewable energy, but also seek to develop the energy sector in general. 

Water Resource Management and Development 

Mr Chairperson, in 2014, the ministry will continue to consolidate the plans it has made in the water sector in order to increase access to water resources for various uses and improve the lives of our people. To this effect, my ministry will continue to improve water resources management through improved data collection and processing. We will achieve the above through adherence to the Integrated Water Resource Management System. 

Mr Chairperson, through the support of the World Bank, my ministry has started implementing a project that will see the construction of about 400 dams. We will soon start the process of identifying the feasible dam sites throughout the country. The project is meant to increase access to water resources for different uses, especially in rural areas. 

Sir, as you may be aware, my ministry has started implementing the new Water Resource Management Act. This will see improvement in the way our water resources are managed and developed. This Government wants to see to it that the country’s water resources play an increasing role in the social and economic development of the country.  

In conclusion, Sir, I wish to state that my ministry’s budget is reflective of our priorities within the sector. I, therefore, call upon the House to support this budget. Your support will be highly appreciated. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.  

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate this very important Vote. The unfortunate part is that this ministry is too big, with some of its sectors facing huge challenges.   

Sir, I want to start by talking about electricity connectivity. I probably did not hear the hon. Minister, but he did not make any reference to connectivity in this country. It might surprise you that although we are enjoying the benefits of electricity here in Lusaka, only 23 per cent of the Zambian population is connected to the national electricity grid. Even within Lusaka, there are a number of households that have no electricity connection.  

Mr Chairperson, it is very sad that a country with abundant water resources can still have people living in darkness in the 21st Century, thereby making everything difficult. Is it no wonder that our students are failing. Many of our pupils come from homes where there is no electricity and they cannot study properly at night. They are only able to study during the day. Many cannot do much with what they learn at school because they cannot tap power to carry out certain experiments.  

Worse still, Sir, many of our schools, especially in Senga Hill where I come from, have no power at all. This makes the livelihood of, especially, teachers difficult. This is why many of our teachers transfer from rural to urban schools in the hope of finding electricity in the places they move to.  

Mr Chairperson, I expected the hon. Minister to have tackled this one big challenge. I, at least, expected him to have given a policy direction to the effect that the Government is aiming at raising the electricity connectivity percentage by 2030 to 50, 60 or even 80 per cent, as it is in many other countries. However, the fact that he did not mention anything in those lines means that this country is left with no hope and the situation will likely remain the same for some time to come. 

Mr Chairperson, when flying over Zambia from South Africa to Europe, people cannot see anything below. There is total darkness. 

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: When the captain says the plane is flying over Zambia, one cannot see anything below. Meanwhile, when flying over other countries, lights can be seen and the pilot even says, “Please, have your eyes on.” 

Laughter 

Mr Simbao: I am very serious as I discuss this issue. 

Mr M. H. Malama interjected.

The Chairperson: Order!

Why are you engaging him? Please, just listen. 

Hon. Member for Senga Hill, you may continue.  

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, when we speak, we must be listened to. I am not speaking for myself because I have electricity in my house. However, I am speaking on behalf of the so many people out there with no power in their homes. There is no reason this should remain the status quo. We have the opportunity to change this. 

Sir, only 23 per cent of the population is connected to the national electricity grid, and yet that is something someone is proud of. It is a pity. If we continue like this, there is no way Zambians will see electricity in their homes. I recall telling a story of a man I met at a bus station some time back. I did not know this person, but he told me that he knew that, in his lifetime, he would never live in an electrified house. That really saddened me. This man used to live in Twapia, Ndola. 

Mr Chairperson, Hon Silwamba, the then Member of Parliament, managed to connect Twapia to electricity. I really hoped that the man had lived to see it. Seeing to it that we meet people’s expectations is our role, as hon. Members of Parliament. Let us not just make running commentaries as if everybody out there has power in their homes because 77 per cent of Zambians have no electricity. This is a big challenge to all of us and this is why when we speak, we must think of those people who are still struggling. 

Sir, the lack of electricity will hinder our people from making progress. We will continue in our present status of industrialisation. There is no way we can expect to come up with big industries with the kind of power that we are generating. Our generation capacity is still very low compared to what it can be because, as a country, we have a lot of sources from which we can tap hydro electricity.

Mr Chairperson, I expected the hon. Minister to have mentioned whether the power generation project the ministry has been working on in Maamba is now operational or not. I know he mentioned Lunzuwa, but I expected him to tell me whether the people in the Northern Province were going to receive sufficient power to run on, as they expected, after the upgrading of Lunzuwa because the power going to the province, especially Mbala, at the moment, is insufficient. The people are in darkness all the time. It is only when the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) remembers to switch on the generator sets that the people of the Northern Province have power. Connectivity to the Northern Province is very poor. Maybe, this is because we do not have mines. Maybe, if we had mines, we would have been given the opportunity to be connected to the national electricity grid. The people there are very frustrated by the blackouts. The Government must think again and see how it can improve electiricity connectivity. 

Mr Chairperson, the people in Luapula have similar problems. They have constant blackouts, but since the Government is working on Musonda Falls Power Generation Plant, I expected the hon. Minister to tell us that once the upgrading of the power generation plant was completed, it would be the end of the power problems in Luapula. Electricity connectivity is very poor in this country.

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about oil exploration. Until now, we have no idea what is really happening in this regard. We have been told that we have oil reserves. However, I really do not know if they really exist. I know that some areas have been demarcated into blocks and I also know that some people have been awarded these blocks, but what is happening? I understand that the Government has a percentage share in all these blocks. So, the Government should be in a position to tell us exactly what is happening since it is a shareholder in these oil blocks. I expected the hon. Minister to tell us whether this project has been abandoned or the Government still has interest to explore and to what extent this has been done. I am hopeful that if we discovered oil, things would change, like they did in Ghana or Uganda. The amount of money these countries are realising from these explorations seems to be pushing them quite ahead of most countries. Since there is hope that we might have oil, I expected the hon. Minister to tell us how serious the Government is with the exploration since it is a shareholder in these blocks. Therefore, when the hon. Minister winds up debate, I expect him to say something about the oil blocks.

Mr Chairperson, I am also told that we have diamonds in the Western Province for it is believed to be on the same belt with Botswana, Namibia and Angola, which have diamonds. Therefore, I also expected the hon. Minister to touch on such an issue so that, as a Government, we can know the future sources of money.

Mr Chairperson, I expected the hon. Minister to tell me what mineral resources are in the Northern Province. There is no one who talks about the province. What do we really have in the Northern Province? Is it just soil and nothing else or we have some minerals underground? What is really in the Northern Province, hon. Minister? I am told that the area around my constituency has high grade copper. Can the hon. Minister, please, confirm that. It is important that we know what mineral resources are in the Northern Province so that, if need be, we can prepare our people to become another Copperbelt in the future.

Finally, Mr Chairperson, on the issue of ethanol and bio-fuels, the jatropha story came with a bang, but I really do not know what happened to it. We have the land to grow the jatropha and sugarcane for Ethanol. I do not know what the Government’s direction on this issue is. I do not know if it is encouraging the private sector and in what manner it is doing it. Encouragement cannot just be done by word of mouth. The Government must put in something because at the end of everything, it will be the beneficiary. If the Jatropha Project and the Ethanol one from sugarcane plantations became successful, the Government would be the beneficiary. Therefore, what is it doing to encourage the private sector to venture into these industries?

Mr Chairperson, these are the issues that I would like the hon. Minister to enlighten me on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, first of all, I rise to support the Vote for the ministry. It is a very important ministry with three key areas, which are mines, energy and water development. Let me start with mining. I am happy that last week, the hon. Minister and other Zambians gathered at the Intercontinental Hotel when we were being given the report by the International Council on Mining and Metals. I was happy that the hon. Minister stayed throughout that session. He heard for himself the Zambian people’s serious concerns about mining.

Mr Chairperson, there is a very serious concern that the level of human development is not commensurate to the mineral endowments and the scale of mining in this country. For the type of mining going on in this country, the living conditions of our people should be improving. However, that is not happening and the Government must be very concerned. I want to say that the PF Government won elections partly on account of promising to resolve this issue of the Zambian people not benefiting from their mineral wealth. Two years down the line, the PF does not seem to be ready to resolve the issue. In fact, the PF Government has brought a lot of half measures that are not adding any value, therefore, creating instability in the mining sector in this country. The mine investors require stability. Instability will affect the flow of foreign direct investment (FDI) eventually. The PF must craft a very stable and a win-win tax regime once and for all and not employ half measures that we have been seeing here in the last two years. This is a very serious indictment on the PF Administration and I hope that it is doing something about this. The Zambian people are not happy and the hon. Minister can attest to that because we were together in that meeting and he heard for himself. I think it was better put by the Zambians themselves from across all walks of life.

Mr Chairperson, the real issue around mining is that of taxation, of course. The second problem, which was embarrassing to many of us, was that of data collection. When you go to the Government, it has different data on mining from the Bank of Zambia, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and Chamber of Mines. All of these institutions have different figures. Therefore, we are not very sure whether the taxes that are being collected from the mines are the correct ones. This issue must be resolved. The issue of capacity building, which is never ending, should now be concluded. You cannot be building capacity while people are busy quarrying and the minerals are going. Minerals are a wasting asset. Therefore, the Government must quickly get down to business and begin to derive the benefits that belong to us.

Mr Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that the reports indicate that the data on mining in this country differs from institution to institution, such as the Government of the Republic of Zambia, Bank of Zambia, the ZRA and Chamber of Mines. If the data on the quantities of the minerals that are being mined in our country differ, what about profit calculations?

Sir, it is for this reason that the Zambian people have, over the years, asked for a tax regime that is based on revenue or the turnover. That is simpler to administer. If quantities are a problem, what about profit calculations? So, we need a simplified tax system that is easy for even an ordinary person to understand. If we know the quantity of production and the prices, we can easily know the tax that is due to the Government. 

Mr Chairperson, hedging and transfer pricing are even more complicated than production data. Therefore, if we have a problem of collecting production data, then, we can have a greater problem in calculating the taxes using the profit-based tax system. Thus, the mineral royalty tax, perhaps, can be increased and the way it is applied changed so that it is no longer corporate income tax deductable. If you check on the revenue trends on the mineral royalty tax, the figure has increased. As we increased percentages from 3 per cent to 6 per cent, even the figures increased, despite the wrong data that is given by different mining houses. 

Mr Chairperson, many countries have zeroed in on mineral royalty tax and the hon. Minister of Finance also confirmed that we are way below the regional threshold. Where other countries are getting taxes of about 11 per cent, this country is getting only about 5 per cent. I think we need to resolve that very quickly.

Mr Chairperson, the events of the last two weeks are not helpful. The Government must be organised. It must not scare off  investors. When this Government came into power, it found the macroeconomic environment highly stable. The ratings were as a result of long years of investment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: The FDI can fly away. The Zambian people have no money to engage in large-scale mining. After all, it is open to them, but they do not have the capital. It is sad to see emotional senior officials in the Government making statements. It is not right. Dialogue must be the way forward. 

Sir, the world is now globalising. We must not go to the extent of hearing an hon. Minister saying a manager is a prohibited immigrant. Yes, a person can be relieved of his/her duty as a chief executive officer, but to one day go to the extent of declaring him/her a prohibited immigrant and the following day fly to India or get money from India to build clinics is not right.

Mr Mufalali: How?

Mr Hamududu: This world is becoming one, therefore, to declare certain people prohibited immigrants is to live in the past. 

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: So, the events of last week are not helpful.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to warn this Government to tone down its language. We are not defending mining companies, but the Government must be responsible. After all, it has the power to impose tax. Why throw tantrums on television when it has the power?

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, if the Government wants to impose value-addition, it has the power to use the tax system in order to improve the local produce. Besides, since we are here now, it would be better to bring the Bills and we will pass the laws on those taxes than to go on television and scare investors.

Mr Chairperson, there are other investors, maybe a small number, who are genuine and the would-be investors that you are scaring. That is very dangerous. Already, the ratings of our economy are going down and this will affect our borrowing capacity and many other things. This is very serious. 

Mr Chairperson, the Government must be cool headed, sober and go the way of dialogue. No one can refuse to go to your office or State House, but scaring innocent investors on television is not right. There are other investors that are genuine.

Mr Chairperson, we, in the Opposition, are not happy with the news. Those that read international news will agree that this news has gone all over the world, hence downgrading the ratings of this country.

So, please, Sir, I am requesting the Government not to give the next Government a burden of rebuilding the macro-economy. It is something that is very difficult to do. It took the MMD almost twenty years to build that foundation.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mwenya: Question!

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You do not understand.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Female Member interjected.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, she does not understand it. Macroeconomic stability is a long investment and it is not easy to build.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Finally, Sir, I wish to say that benefitting from our rich mineral wealth requires a lot of things, not only taxes. Of more importance is a sound economic management and general good governance in the country. I want to give examples. Botswana did not develop to what it is today because of taxes from diamonds. It is not true. We have more minerals mined in this country than Botswana. We have emeralds, copper and others. However, Botswana has made it because of an environment of sound economic management.

Mr Chairperson, even if the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development did the right thing now and brought the taxes that are due, going by the way this Government is behaving, it will abuse the fiscal space. For example, when you just walk out there, you will find a stadium here and a district there. These things are holistic.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, we can even have everybody being an hon. Minister. 

Sir, I have been in this Parliament for a long time and I have served under three Presidents. For the first time, the hon. Deputy Ministers are sitting in the third role. My fear is that if, for example, we get the right taxes, the revenue realised will be abused. 

So, this thing is a package. Firstly, we want the right taxes in place. There has to be a win-win situation between the mining houses and the Zambian people and secondly, an environment of sound economic management. One can raise the money while others abuse it, as we have already seen the different statements coming from the ministries. There is no co-ordination. There is poor planning in this country. Each ministry is creating a planning unit, but there is no over role high level planning organ. Meanwhile, the Government is busy dreaming. One hon. Minister is saying I am employing more people and another one is saying I am doing clusters.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: So, that space can be abused. There are many countries that have experienced this. The Zambian people think that they are suffering because of, for example, low taxes imposed on the mining industry. That is not the only reason. The bigger reason is poor economic management.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, there are countries that have no minerals, but are doing better.

Mr Nkombo: It is the systems!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the systems are not right. So, we need to address this issue in a greater spectrum so that we are more holistic. Otherwise, if we deal with issues in piecemeal, whatever is coming from the mines will not benefit us.

Sir, the other issue that I wish to talk about is that of rampant mining and even illegal mining in this country. This country has a lot of minerals. There are a lot of people mining these minerals, especially in the small-scale mining sector where there is even more looting. People just come into this country and we all have heard many stories about some nationalities here. While you are saying this country has problems, they think it is heaven on earth. They come here and make it. They are carrying out a lot of illegal mining. There are a lot of minerals that are crossing our borders without having paid tax. It is not only these big mining houses which are not returning the right taxes, but also a lot of small-scale miners of foreign origin. We welcome them here, but they must pay the taxes. 

Mr Chairperson, we have discovered that there are minerals in each province in this country. If you want information, I can give it to you. If you go to Mapatizya, there is amethyst and wherever amethyst is, there are also other trace minerals, but those are not accounted for.

They are mining other minerals right there, but only amethyst is being checked for. There is a need to strengthen the mechanisms of monitoring the minerals being mined. This country can raise a lot of money from small-scale mining such as the gemstone mining sector and improve the living conditions of our people.

Mr Chairperson, finally, the Government cannot dictate how many jobs a company should create. The creation of jobs is done in accordance with a particular company’s business plan. If it wants to downscale, that is its issue. If the Government wants mining companies to create more jobs, it should give those companies some incentives to do that. The incentives can be matched with number of jobs the Government wants to be created. The Government cannot control the mining companies.

Mr Chairperson, the Government can create jobs beyond the actual mining such as at value-addition level. That is because the actual mining is highly mechanised and there is nothing much you can do about it. It is at value-addition where jobs can be created and I think this Government is not thinking outside the box. This country has all the combination minerals. The other time, I was saying that the net profit of Samsung for the fourth quarter of 2012 was bigger than our Budget. The net profit in three months was over K8 billion. This is as a result of investing in education. If the Government wants its people to add value to minerals, it should educate them. This cuts across ministries. If the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education is not doing the right things, there will be no benefits. Zambians must begin to enterprise.

Sir, I want to end by encouraging the hon. Minister on the issue of dams. Out of the 200 dams that the hon. Minister is talking about, my constituency alone needs about fifteen dams. We are pastoralists and that is the input we need. By next week, I will bring applications from the dams committees which have applied to the hon. Minister. I will bring those applications so that, next year, the fifteen dams can be rolled out in Bweengwa Constituency.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to debate on this important Vote. First and foremost, I must say that I have worked with the hon. Minister in that ministry before when it was the Ministry of Lands and Energy. I have also known the hon. Minister from the time we were young and he was working for ZESCO in Kasama. 

This Vote is very important to the nation. For us to talk about real gross domestic product (GDP), we have to talk about proper goods and services that are produced in a country. A sector like the Mines, Energy and Water Development is very crucial to the economy of Zambia. First of all, we have to look at the economy, the industry itself and the company. When you have analysed these, you will realise that they all fall under the hon. Minister. Let us put cheap politics aside because we are talking about the whole nation. Today, if you went to Tanzania and drove in the bush, you would find electricity everywhere. However, that is not the case with Zambia. This cheap politics of saying do not take electricity to a particular area because the people there did not vote for me is not killing the Opposition, but the Government itself. You do not know where your son will end up tomorrow. If my colleague, Dr Kenneth Kaunda (KK), whose son is sitting on your right, Mr Speaker, did not bring Zambia together by putting up secondary schools everywhere, today, we would not be here, speaking in the manner that we are. Let us analyse this economy properly and forget about cheap politics. Politics should be during elections, but after elections, let us sit down and analyse the situation.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy that this ministry is being managed by a qualified person, who has been in the field as an engineer in the rural areas and abroad. It is good that, today, he is heading this ministry. Hon. Minister, forget about politicians. You need to address the problems in the boards of directors in public institutions. We need to have proper boards in place. Are the people in these boards qualified to advise you? If they do not qualify, they are people …

The Chairperson: Address the Chair.

Mr Muchima: Through the Chairperson, the hon. Minister should make sure that the people around him can advise him properly.

The Chairperson: No, do not say, “Through the Chair.” You are supposed to say the hon. Minister should do this and that.

You may continue.

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister should have proper boards in place. It is the hon. Minister who recommends the names of board members to His Excellency the President. These board members should be highly qualified people who should add value to public institutions and not mere cadres. Should they be cadres, they should, at least, be qualified to do the job. 

Mr Chairperson, we need people who understand technical language and the diversity of these institutions. Institutions like ZESCO, the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) and all water utility companies must have boards with qualified people. We do not want mediocrity whereby people are picked anyhow simply because they want to get an allowance. That way, we are misleading the nation and we shall blame the responsible hon. Minister for the outcome. 

However, Sir, I hope that Hon. Christopher Yaluma will not accept such mediocrity to engulf institutions under his ministry. Look at what is happening in the North-Western Province today. There is so much water that runs in the province from Angola, Zambezi and Kabompo, among other places, therefore, we do not need solar systems there. We have enough water falls. I can start from Chavuma. In Kabompo, there is Chikata Falls and Kabompo Gorge. There is also Zengamina Hydro power Project and Lunzua Falls. There are so many means of generating electricity. 

Sir, if all these were developed, we would not even be talking of our diesel generator sets breaking down in the area. Since we are near Angola, we could even export electricity to that country. This is one area where we need to invest a lot because there can be so many benefits accruing to this country. At the moment, most of our neighbouring countries, such as Namibia, and even other countries, such as South Africa, have an electricity deficit and we have exported electricity to these countries before.

Mr Chairperson, of course, investment in this sector should not just be left to the Government alone. There is a need for the private sector to be involved. Project financing for such sectors is highly risky because there is a lot of money that is required. This is why I am saying this should not only be left to the Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) because it cannot manage on its own. 

Mr Chairperson, the Government claims to have taken electricity to Lumwana. However, that electricity is only meant for the mines and the people of Lumwana. Our colleagues on your right are only interested in copper and not in the livelihood of the people in the area. Meanwhile, they are saying that by such a year and date, every place in this country will have electricity. This is what I mean when I talk about mediocrity. 

Sir, we need electricity in all the villages. One day, I heard His Excellency the President say that he wanted all the villages to have electricity. However, at the rate at which we are moving and the cheap politics we are engaging in, electricity will not be in these places in the next three or four years. We are talking of electricity going to Kalumbila, but I want the national grid to reach Mwinilunga and connect to Ikeleng’i. This will enable us to connect other places and even export to surrounding countries. 

Mr Chairperson, if there is a sector in which we should be exporting, it is energy. Development of more hydro power projects in the northern part of the country will give relief to the power stations in the Southern Province. So, we need to balance the sources of hydro power and eventually stop load shedding and have stability in this sector.

Mr Chairperson, we need quality leadership in this ministry’s offices. The hon. Minister should not just be engaged in meetings from 0700 hours to 2100 hours. What does that solve? We need electricity in all parts of this country.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to comment on the proposal to have huge heaps of copper concentrates to be processed abroad. This is a cartel. The simple reason there is a proposal for these concentrates to be processed abroad is that they contain uranium and gold. If they are processed in this country, the mines will be taxed for these other hidden minerals. So, this cartel wants to find means of convincing the Government to allow the processing of our concentrates abroad.  

Mr Chairperson, what can stop the Government from having a processing plant here in Zambia? Zambia can endorse a group of people to put up a plant here.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Sir, if they are saying that the minerals we have are of low grade, but are able to put up mines, why can they not put up a processing plant and process everything here? They just want to steal the uranium. They want to steal the gold which is not being accounted for. 

Hon. Member: And silver.

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, these are the things to which we should not turn a blind eye.  In the past, we used to call people who turned a blind eye to something which would have otherwise been of benefit of them ba Six Koloko. Now, the whole country is blind like Ba Six Koloko. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, we are allowing minerals to be stolen in broad daylight. This is our country. Just as I said the other time, hon. Minister of Home Affairs, you are my colleague and you should know what I am talking about. 

Laughter

Mr Muchima: We have great potential in the North-Western Province. We have Muzhila, Nsengamina and Kakomakane. These can produce enough electricity in that area.

Hon. Member: Maule.

Mr Muchima: There is no Maule there. 

Laughter

Mr Muchima: What is in the province is honey, pineapple and fresh water. Everything is there. There is no Lihule Road.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Milk from buffaloes.

Mr Muchima: I have just been reminded of milk from buffaloes. 

Mr Chairperson, we can concentrate on dissecting this sector into priority areas. Forget about who voted for you and who did not. Doing this will bring a lot of money and your GDP will go up. It will also create employment. Imagine if we had five or six hydro power stations in that area, you would have created a spectrum of employment for our people.

Mr Chairperson, we, in the Opposition, are also seeing which hon. Minister is adding value or just playing politics. We know and have seen, especially some of us who have worked in other offices. We know all of you name by name.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister must be different from the others. In this nation, we need to sit down and adjust our spectacles to see what it is that made John Cecil Rhodes come all the way to Africa, and Zambia in particular. What did he want? Let us help the politicians. The hon. Minister is both a technocrat and a politician. Please, drive that ministry properly. We have the waters and minerals. We have all that we need. We just need a qualified driver. A politician should be the last person to be considered because he/she only looks at his chances of floating and whether he/she will be elected or not. You look at the letters. What are we going to put in place? 

Mr Chairperson, I am annoyed with these boards that you are appointing. If we weighed them or took those names to America, are you sure that each one of those members would have been found with values? This is the beginning. This is the point where we should begin from. Your ministry deserves a lot of support, especially in the North-Western Province. Everybody should shift to the North-Western Province, not simply because I come from there, but because there is a lot of potential in that area. The next President should be thinking of where his money will come.

Mr Chairperson, other countries like Botswana have beef. There is always something to talk about in relation to other countries. However, in Zambia, we only talk about investment, which we do not control. It is not ours. It is being controlled by some chaps.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, I have seen Indians who come with a brief case one day, but the next day, they are the people occupying the central part of Lusaka and are owners of this and that. However, when I go to the Ministry of Finance to seek Government backing to put up a factory as an off-taker, my proposal is turned down because it is believed that I will run away with the Government’s money. 

Mr Chairperson, just to get the Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) from ZESCO is another issue. Why can it not be given to the ERB? Let it be a Government concern because ZESCO is in competition with others. It does not want to give others, and yet it does not have the capacity. Let the PPA, which was done under the one-party State, be withdrawn from ZESCO. Today, things have changed. Let it be withdrawn from the hands of one competitor and be placed into the hands of the Government through the ERB or any other institution. That will be fair to other players on the ground.

Sir, we started talking about hydro power generation many years ago. We are losing out. Today, we should not even be having shortage of electricity and load shedding everywhere.
    
Mr Chairperson, the Government promised that it would perform better than the previous governments. We are expectant especially that the ministry is being headed by, a highly qualified hon. Minister who is an engineer and not any other person.

Mr Chairperson, that Chris or hon. Minister of Mines and what have you is a hard worker.

Laughter

Me Muchima: Mr Chairperson, for any infrastructure development to make a meaningful impact, there is a need to look at the energy sector, railway and road infrastructure. Yes, borrowing for consumption is bad, but if you are borrowing to put up a plant which will supply energy to the majority of the people, it is even better than these subsidies which you removed. The Zambian people are saying that they are fed up. This is because on one hand, Hon. Kalaba is saying that trees should not be cut, but on the other hand that is our tradition. We are coming to that Vote. Firstly, the Government should supply electricity everywhere so that we can stop cutting trees. However, it has not done that. All that the Government is doing is broadcasting. Even when it has some seed, it broadcasts in several places. However, that will not have an effect. The Government has to concentrate in certain areas. If there is any sector that it has to concentrate on, it is this energy sector. I am speaking the language which a Zambian will understand. My friend, Hon. Hamududu, was speaking a language meant for Lusaka people, but I am speaking a language …

Laughter

Mr Muchima: …  meant for the people of Mwinilunga so that they hear the cheap politics. We want this country to be lit because we have all the raw materials, all the resources are here. Why should we be asking people to be doing things on our behalf? We have educated people and everything that we need to develop ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I support the Vote and I thank you.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you. I would like to take the words of the hon. Member for Ikeleng’i as mine.

Hon. Members: Then, sit down!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we cannot sleep throughout. There is a time to sleep and a time to wake up, …

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: … but we are always sleeping. The people of Zambia have been voting from 1964 to date. Back then, I was three years old, but we are still sleeping. Other countries that were behind us are now ahead of us. Whoever called this ministry, the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development, …

Mr Muntanga: Is sleepy.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: … I do not know what he or she was looking at. He could have been looking at the right thing. You know that scientifically, we move, walk and do whatever because of energy. Therefore, it is like a replication. A nation cannot stand without energy, but the question now is: Where is this energy? When will this energy reach Kalabo so that it can also develop?

Mr Chairperson, I have always said that let us not look at the urban areas only. These urban areas were also remote at one time. You have heard from Hon. Chipungu that Lusaka was not a city. It was a village. However, today, this village has turned into a city. Therefore, is it a rule that there should be places that should not develop? Why should people occupy offices when they are not capable of doing what is expected of them? Last week, I told this House that those who are not able to perform should leave the offices for those who are able to perform because we want the number of rural areas to be reduced so that …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

You are disturbing him.

Continue, Hon. Miyutu.

Mr Miyutu: … we can have more urban areas. I went through the Yellow Book. You cannot separate us, the people from the Western Province, from water. Therefore, when you talk of energy, you must have the means of converting our water into energy. We want to see the water in the Western Province being a means of development. Yes, there is the Kalabo/Mongu Road, but will it reach Nyengo? Will it reach Libonda?

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, it will not. It is just a stretch of about 35km.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, now what about these other places. Even in Kalabo itself, that road will not reach every place. We need water development there.

Sir, in the past forty years, there was a bit of development in the water transport sector. We did not have seasonal water transport in Kalabo. We used to have water transport throughout the year because the governments, then, were committed. The governments were adding value to the rivers. The rivers were continuously being dredged and dug out. 

Interruptions 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, it is important for those who go to school to come back without …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, people should go to school and come back with something and apply it instead of coming back without anything. Otherwise, why would they go there in the first place?

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Jean, you have heard!

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: We should apply the knowledge that we acquire in classrooms.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the originators of civic education can tell who is educated and who is not. 

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Sir, people who go to school for personal gain will never deliver. That is why you will find that the Government is not delivering. I do not believe that we do not have the resources. We have, but we do not use them.

Mr Chairperson, when Dr Kaunda built Kalabo District, there was no road. However, all those offices you see in Kalabo were built using the cement from Chilanga. He even managed to take cement from Chilanga to as far as Sikongo. Why? He had the will and the desire to develop the nation. Where there is a will, …

Hon. Opposition Members: There is a way!

Mr Miyutu: … there is always a way. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: It ends there. It is a clean game. However, where there is no desire or will, …

Hon. Opposition Members: There is no way!

Mr Miyutu: … even when the way is open, you will not see it …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: … because you do not have the desire.

Interruptions 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, we have only one Zambia which only has one Government which must focus on the entire Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, we also need electricity in the rural part of Kalabo. We must have power in the rural part of Lundazi.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: We must have power in the rural part of Mununga. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: You see, hon. Members, …

The Chairperson: Order!

 I cannot agree with you on the need to have power in Lundazi.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Please, continue.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the issue of energy does not need to be over-emphasised. We have looked at the Yellow Book. There is money for purchase of water equipment. However, we do not know what this water equipment is. However, if it is water equipment for dredging the rivers, we will appreciate it. We are not going to appreciate it if this dredger will not reach Sikongo and Liuwa because this is where the water is. This is where the equipment should go. How many times has the dredger reached Kalabo? Our canals are all clogged up. People in Kalabo have not seen the use of the dredger which was there. So, …

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry for interrupting my colleague, who is on the Floor. The Vote under debate is the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development.

Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central in order to debate the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education and the Ministry of Works, Supply and Communication when he is supposed to concentrate on the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: If you follow his argument, there is a very thin line between what the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development and what the dredger does. This is why I let him go on because the dredger he is talking about is in relation to water being clogged with weeds. So, I think he is in order.

Continue, Hon. Miyutu.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: I am a happy man. Sometimes, Mr Chairperson, you do not need to be told that it is day time.

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: A day is signified by the presence of that white light. That is the indication that it is day time and the lack of daylight results in night.

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I will not dwell on mines, but I will say something about them. The Western-Province is crying for mines. We are not saying the hon. Minister should go there and mine, but he must help us in opening up the area so that we can mine whatever minerals are in the province. If there is nothing, then, let us know that the grounds in the Western-Province have no mineral deposits. However, we do not believe so because there was a company, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Spirit of the River.

Mr Miyutu: … Spirit of the River. I do not think that company went to the province to just catch fish.

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: It went there in search of diamonds. The Government must know that the Spirit of the River went to the Western Province to search for diamonds. When the company left Kalabo, it left behind everything which means that it got what it wanted. Let us open our eyes so that we utilise the resources which we have beneath us. We are not going to benefit from illegal mining or from the shoddy mining activities. 

Sir, there is no way the Almighty would have made a boundary in the air and in the ground that minerals must be found in Angola only. Which Almighty would do that?

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, how would he set a boundary that cut Zambia from any of the minerals? This boundary is manmade. It is on the surface. It is not present underground. This means that the minerals that are found in Angola could also be here in Zambia. In fact, I am convinced that there are minerals in the Western Province and all that is needed is for us to explore.

Sir, I know how skilled the hon. Minister is. He is so skilful that he can invite the exploration companies to the Western Province. We also want to be miners there. In my remaining three minutes, let me say that …

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: … we tell the Government what we want it to do, but if it does not follow what we tell it, then, we will not value it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I am telling the Government that if it does not listen to our complaints, it will continue arresting us. It should go ahead and open up those prisons. I do not know how many people it will arrest. We are tired of suffering. We are no longer able to use canoes due to lack of canals and rivers. This Government is concentrating on taking development somewhere else. It is not fair. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, the mines are not only for the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces. The mines can be opened up anywhere where minerals are accessible. The minerals have to be explored. It is the duty of the Government to also open up a mine in the Western Province. That is why it was voted for. The Government has to take up the challenge of taking the exploring companies to the Western Province so that they discover the good which is there. God the almighty would not have enabled people to live in the Western Province if there was nothing good underground.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: He would not have made that mistake. He knew that one day, the people of the Western Province would uncover what is underground and they would live by it. These are the short words I wanted to give to those people on your right, Mr Chairperson. I would want the Almighty to make the productive energy go into the minds of the people on your right so that they know that the Western Province is not a fantasy. That is a place of residence which should be developed. The Government should know that it is a habitable place. We want the Government to take away those fantasies so that the Western Province becomes a very productive and developed place. 

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this important Vote. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, I want to admit that the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development is an important ministry. For me, it acts as a catalyst for development. I realise that where there is mining, in most cases, there will be satellite industries, including agriculture. By that, I mean that agriculture will flourish. Mining accelerates industrialisation. Where there is mining, there is industrialisation. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to join and speak on behalf of the people of Luapula. In this country the two most underdeveloped provinces are the Western and Luapula provinces. It is, therefore, important that this vital ingredient to development, which is energy, is equally distributed. I want to state that one major reason Luapula Province has not developed is that the electricity system in the province is extremely poor. If anything, it is also important to state that electricity in Luapula literally does not exist. While in the urban areas you have load shedding, which is scheduled, maybe, once or twice a day, in Luapula, the load shedding goes beyond six times in a day. If anything, the only place where you will find electricity is at the town centre of Mansa.

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)
_____________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)
__________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT: URGE THE GOVERNMENT TO HASTEN THE DISTRIBUTION OF INPUTS UNDER THE FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME FOR THE 2013/2014 PLANTING SEASON

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Mr Speaker: Notice of an item for debate on the Motion of Adjournment of the House has been received. The debate will be introduced by the hon. Member for Kalomo Central, Mr Muntanga.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move that this House urges the Government to hasten the distribution of inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) for the 2013/2014 Planting Season.

Mr Speaker, this is a non-controversial Motion which should be supported by all hon. Members of Parliament. Today is the 13th of November, 2013. Following the information that I was given by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, it is exactly two days before the planting date of 15th November, 2013, the date that he gave this House. 

Mr Speaker, there is no seed that has been distributed to the farmers to date. The D- Compound, which was sent to the districts, is still stuck …

Mr Speaker: Order, on my right!

Mr Muntanga: … at districts in the warehouses and is not being distributed to farmers. 

Mr Speaker, even transporters who it is intended should transport the various inputs have not signed the contractual obligation to do so. These are the transporters that have not been paid for their services by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). The situation, therefore, to date, shows bleak development in crop production.

Mr Speaker, with that background, I want to state that Zambia is divided into three major agrological regions, namely region one, two and three. The rainfall pattern and the quality of soils across the regions differ. 

Mr Speaker, Region 1 one receives less than 800 mm of rainfall annually and constitutes 12 per cent of Zambia’s total land area. It covers the southern part of the Southern Province, the valley, and parts of the Eastern and Western provinces. This region is suitable for production of drought-resistant crops like cotton, sesame, sorghum and millet. It also has the potential for production of irrigated crops like winter maize. This entails that this particular region should have received early maturing varieties of seed to have any production at all. However, they have received none.  

Mr Speaker, Region 2 receives between 800 and 1,000 mm of rainfall and constitutes 42 per cent of the country’s total land area. It is subdivided further into Region 2 (a) and region 2 (b). Region 2 (a) covers the central, Lusaka, southern and eastern plateau of the country and generally contains inherent fertile soils. A permanently settled system of agriculture is practiced in this area. The area is highly suitable for a variety of crops which range from maize, cotton, tobacco, sunflower, soya beans, irrigated wheat, groundnuts, flowers, paprika and vegetable production. 

Mr Speaker, this area ranges from Kalomo to Kabwe and parts of the Eastern Province. It is an area which was selected for the e-voucher system. These are the areas that do not have the D-Compound, basal dressing or seed. Region 2 (b) covers the Western Province and consists of sandy soils. It is suitable for the production of cashew nuts, rice, cassava and millet, including vegetable and timber production. 

Mr Speaker, Region 3 receives between 1,000 and 1,500 mm of rainfall annually and constitutes 46 per cent of the country’s total land area comprising the Copperbelt, Luapula, Northern and North-Western provinces. 

With the exception of the Copperbelt, this zone is characterised by highly leached acidic soils. It is, however, suitable for the production of millet, cassava, sorghum, beans, groundnuts, coffee, sugarcane, rice and pineapples. There is no doubt, Sir, that comparative advantage indicates that Region 2 should get preferential treatment in the distribution of fertilisers. 

Sir, it is extremely important that as the Government makes decisions on the delivery of agricultural inputs, the above given information is taken into consideration. A non-vibrant and operative agricultural system, which is seriously crippled by a climate change-related phenomenon, will worsen the situation. 

Mr Speaker, one of the major constraints that need serious address in order to increase production and economic growth in agriculture is low productivity due to poor service delivery, particularly for small-scale farmers. 

Mr Speaker, existing reports such as the Living Conditions Monitoring Service of 2010 by the Central Statistical Office (CSO) indicate that the rural population, whose livelihood depends on agriculture, have remained extremely poor with poverty levels at 77 per cent as compared to the their urban counterparts whose poverty levels are at 27.5 per cent. You can verify this information at the CSO. The 2010 Living Condition Monitoring Systems also showed that income levels have drastically declined with no formal employment. Given the abundant natural resources base, agriculture offers the greatest potential for generating growth and increasing employment and incomes. 

Mr Speaker, it is on the background that it is not enough for the Government to feel comfortable and happy that it has delivered fertiliser by July to the districts and it remains at the warehouses without giving it to the farmers. If the fertiliser and seed is not delivered by the 13th of November, it is a disservice to the agricultural sector. It is also another constraint in outlaying areas because of a lack of infrastructure, for example, feeder roads. It will make the period of distribution for these inputs much longer and may take up to January. This would mean a complete disaster to the food security of our country.

Mr Speaker, the background I have given forces me to move this Motion, that this House urges the Government to hasten the distribution of inputs under the FISP for the 2013/2014 Planting Season and that drastic measures be taken. If need be, for transport, use military vehicles. It is an operation that, in military terms, there would be no delays. There is no amount of explanation that can be given for the fertiliser and seed to remain at the district level. I am concerned that the areas that are hit most are those that are highly productive and require medium seed maturing levels leading to late maturing crops. These are the high-yielding seeds which produce up to 10 tonnes per hectare. If we do not do what is supposed to be done immediately, the seed will only produce less than one tone per hectare and the suffering of our people will continue.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to second this Motion. I will be very brief. I think the hon. Member for Kalomo Central has done something which is very decent and noble in that he is giving an early warning approach to our colleagues in the Government because the result of any further delay in the giving of the beneficiaries of these fertilisers, would have negative impact in April and May, when the harvest time comes. As you know, we do not enjoy a rainfall pattern any more, especially us from the Southern Province who have been hit by the effects of desertification. The rainfall pattern is either excessive or not there at all. What I think the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central has done is simply give the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock and his colleagues a little push so that they can move a bit faster. I do not think that he has caused any abuse in this particular noble movement of this Motion. He made a suggestion that we must actually revolutionise this movement. 

Mr Speaker, the example I will give is that, when the hon. Member of Parliament for an area somewhere in the Eastern Province raised a concern about movement of inputs into Vubwi Constituency, the hon. Minister answered that, “Yes, the roads may be bad, but we are going to engage smaller lorries to move fertilisers to the designated areas so that the beneficiaries can have access to these inputs on time.”

Sir, the ten districts, most of which are in the Southern Province, that were on the e-voucher system are the reason I have actually stood up to speak.

Sir, the hon. Minister, knowing very well and by his own admission, which was an extremely decent thing to do, said that the e-voucher system could not be implemented because there were certain features of this programme that had not been put in place in order for it to record a success. What that means is that the ten districts, including Mazabuka, which I represent, have not been on the data base as beneficiaries of the FISP.

Sir, there is a need to enhance and double the pace at which these people start receiving the farming inputs.

Sir, I want to declare an interest. Yesterday, I went to see my father. He is an old man. He is seventy-nine years old. He told me that he paid a contribution of K400 to the Government …

Mr Mwenya: Iwe, ninshi tawa balipilileko ba wiso?

Mr Nkombo: Ba Mwenya, this is serious business.

Mr Speaker: Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, he said that the rains have come and the fields are prepared and lined, but the only thing remaining is to plant.

Sir, normally, farmers will plant maize and apply the D-compound fertiliser on the same spot. I think that is not strange, hon. Minister. So, most of the people are holding back from planting the seed because they would like to plant and, at the same time, apply the D-compound so that two to three weeks later, they can apply urea.

In my opinion, Sir, this should be taken as a decent piece of advice from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central so that we can to circumvent a disaster. This is because hunger does not know who is from Wusakile or he/she is a an hon. Member of Parliament for Wusakile, where they do not farm. When hunger comes, it will hit everyone.

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: It will be to the exclusion of no one.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I pity those who are heckling. It is a sign of a lack of seriousness. I think there is so much that can be said, but I have made my point. It will be important, that if there are military vehicles, such as Magras, Jews as we used to call them, or IFA trucks, let them be availed to assist in the ferrying of this fertiliser as quickly as possible. However, if the hon. Minister and his Government want to hire trucks, I want to insist that he must not single source, but do a fast-track procurement of securing a contract so that deserving people can move this cargo, especially Urea, into Zambia. Do not use this crisis as a reason to enrich yourselves. 

Mr Speaker, we have been told already that there is a backlog of the movement of the top dressing. In a crisis, someone will come and say “You know we had a problem.” This is a joint problem and we must face it together. We should push you a little bit because it is our job to ensure that we push you just slightly closer to the tipping edge so that you move.

Once again, I pity those of you who do not farm because this is a very serious Motion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sichinga indicated.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, I will give you an opportunity at the right time. I need to allow debate.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor. I rise to support the Motion, which is of national interest and has been ably moved by Hon. Muntanga. All of us, as leaders in this country, must be concerned with what is going on, pertaining to the FISP.

Sir, yesterday, I was informed by my colleagues in Tanzania that the business community in that country, who are using the Tanzania-Zambia Railways (TAZARA), have decided to go to court and obtain an injunction against TAZARA to restrict this company to only ferrying fertiliser to Zambia. They are arguing that they had paid money in advance and they would want to have the facility they paid for using TAZARA.

As a result of that development, Mr Speaker, we may encounter another problem of ferrying our top dressing fertiliser from Tanzania late. 

Mr Speaker, as a result of that development, we may encounter another problem of ferrying our top dressing fertiliser from Tanzania. I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock to look into this issue and find ways and means of ensuring that our fertiliser, which I am made to understand has been procured, is brought to Zambia speedily for use by our farmers.

Sir, I know that some of our colleagues are not concerned about the issue that we are raising. However, we should all bear in mind that what is obtaining, now, in certain areas is that the price of a 25 kg bag of mealie meal has risen to about K160.

Mr Speaker, if we wanted to politick, we would not have raised this issue. We are bringing this matter before the House so that our colleagues can address this concern. We are able to use this as a political tool, but we do not want to do that. We want you to find a solution because this affects all of our people in this country. We are pleading with you to ensure that we save the situation collectively. That is why we are proposing measures of how to address it. Otherwise, we would have ignored the plight of our people and allowed the Government to fail. You should know the consequences of the lack of food. I know that some of our colleagues are saying, “Where can you find such prices?” If you go to places like Nalolo or Shang’ombo, that is when you will realise how high the cost of mealie meal is. That is a fact. So, I am pleading with you, for the first time this year, to do something decent for our people and all of us, for the sake of this country.

Mr Speaker, these few years, we have been the bread basket of the region. However, the food security is being threatened because of the problems we are encountering. I am appealing to you to search your consciences and do the right thing. In Monze Central, which is my constituency, the farmers are not planting because they do not have seed and fertiliser. We all know that that is one of the productive areas in this country, and if there will be no production there, the whole maize production will be affected and all of us will be affected. I am appealing to you to do the decent thing. Mobilise whatever resources you can manage, bring the fertiliser in the country and ensure that it is distributed. I know that the Acting Vice-President is here. Please, I am appealing to you − they will not cut your throat – that as Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, please, lobby your colleagues and ensure that, collectively, we provide the requisite inputs for our people. Otherwise, there will be a disaster next year. I urge all of us, including the hon. Member of Parliament for Mahopo, to support this noble Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda rose.

Laughter

The Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Sichinga): Mr Speaker, let me begin by thanking my colleague, the mover of this particular Motion, Hon. Muntanga, Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central Constituency. In his Motion, he urges the Government to hasten the distribution of agricultural inputs and the FISP for the 2013/2014 Planting Season. 

I want to recognise that Hon. Muntanga is a big farmer in the Southern Province. I have had the benefit of visiting with him in Kalomo and, therefore, I am well aware of his particular interest in agriculture at an individual level as well as at country level.

Sir, there have been many statements that have been made here. First of all, I just want to clear some of those statements that I think are misplaced. Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu has pleaded and appealed and even more so encouraged some of our colleagues here to do something decent as regards the FISP. The truth of the matter is that I have received more requests for delivery of inputs to the various districts from hon. Members of the Executive than hon. Members on your left, other than this Motion. So, I think let us be clear on that part. I think that the concerns are equally spread from both your right and left.

Sir, the other statement that has been made was by Hon. Gary Nkombo, my friend, who said we must expedite the delivery of agricultural inputs, but we should not use this programme to enrich ourselves. Let me correct that straightaway. There is nobody on this side, certainly not this hon. Minister, who is seeking to enrich him/herself out of this situation.

Interruptions

Mr Sichinga: Sir, those that are saying ‘Question’ are obviously suffering from what was stated by a colleague here about light, but I will not go into that area.

Laughter

Mr Sichinga: Suffice it to say, it is very easy … 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Sichinga: Sir, the one who is making that statement and is my nephew, is especially suffering from the said problem in relation to light.

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, just concentrate on your response. You will not manage to react to every statement. It is my task to maintain order.

You may continue.

Mr Sichinga: Sir, I recognise your task, but I also know my nephew.

Laughter

Mr Sichinga: So, I wanted to make sure that, in his constituency, we will deliver these inputs as indicated and promised to him in private and I am now repeating it in public that we will do that without making any profit on it.

Sir, I also wanted to correct one of my colleagues that we are definitely in this thing together. Nobody here, certainly not in this Government, is seeking to exploit any difficulties that we might have in our country. In fact, it is for this reason that we are looking at every single possibility of saving on costs. In my statement last week, on Thursday, when you were kind enough to allow to make one, I did indicate and reported to this House that the Government has saved US$25 million on the 50,000 metric tonnes of urea that we are bringing in from Saudi Arabia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Sir, if I wanted to enrich myself, it would be very easy, but I think it is important that we emphasise that there are still many people in this country with integrity and seeking to serve our country in a legitimate manner. My friends in the United Party for National Development (UPND) particularly know how I operate.

Mr Nkombo: You are our member.

Mr Sichinga: I am not your member …

Laughter

Mr Sichinga: I, however, was the vice-president of the UPND.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

Mr Sichinga: So, I think because of that, they should know how I operate and my discipline. Therefore, I think the innuendo that somebody is trying to make money out of the FISP is unfortunate and should not even have been made.

Mr Muntanga: Talk about distribution of inputs.

Mr Sichinga: I am coming to that. I hope the mover of the Motion will be patient enough to give me the opportunity to respond. That way, we will have a good debate and engage with one another in a decent manner, just like I am doing right now.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: I am quite capable, Sir, of using very crude language in my response, but I will not do that.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, just use your time effectively.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, you will recall that only the previous week, on Thursday, 7th November, you kindly authorised me to present a ministerial statement which I did religiously. In this particular ministerial statement, I specifically talked about the issue of implementing major programmes, projects and activities that our ministry was undertaking, and more specifically, I dwelt on the production and dispatches to the districts of D-Compound fertiliser by Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ), among other things. 

Mr Chairperson, I also proceeded to talk about procurement of seed and urea for the 2013/2014 Season. The third point I talked about was the purchases of maize grain so that we can have food security in our country. I also talked about the FRA and how it was progressing on paying the farmers to ensure that they have the means to be able to contribute to the payment of the inputs that they were supposed to supplement, as part of the contribution to the subsidy. I also talked about the policy framework. More specifically, I provided information on the progress that the ministry was making regarding the distribution of the inputs. I talked about D-Compound fertiliser and how we distributed it to the districts. I explained that, on the 26th June, we started distributing to the districts in order to give us ample time and we have done very well. 

Sir, I went on to explain that 93.3 per cent of the fertiliser we had produced had been delivered to the districts. In the second portion, where I talked about urea that had been imported from Saudi Arabia, I also talked about the savings that we had made. I went on to explain difficulties and challenges that were along the way. In this case, let me touch on the point that Hon. Mwiimbu has raised. 

First of all, Sir, let me acknowledge that there has been a legal move to prevent TAZARA from carrying the urea for anybody else other than one customer at the port. This has led to possible delays in the way urea will be delivered to our country. I want to acknowledge that. I also want to acknowledge the fact that we had reacted to this issue as early as last week where our own legal representation, including two senior people, the Attorney-General and the Director of Public Prosecutions, were, in fact, in Tanzania, at Arusha and gave instructions to deal with this matter immediately.

 I am pleased to say that we have done quite well and the issue is on hand. As I speak to this House, the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication is in Dar-es-Salam to deal with this issue. Let me also say that the Permanent Secretary and the hon. Deputy Minister, who is not seated behind me, had, in fact, travelled to Dar-es-salam to make sure that as the first ship docked on the 4th of October, we were in a position to receive it, according to specific arrangements, and ensure that the processes of moving the cargo were started.

Mr Chairperson, in this case, for the benefit of Hon. Mwiimbu, what we also did was to make sure that TAZARA was visited before the ship arrived, as specific arrangements were made. There were ten trains or locomotives that had been put in place, together with each one of them carrying twenty-nine wagons to transport this fertiliser to our country. Each one of these trains carries an average of between 1,300 metric tonnes and 1,500 metric tonnes per train. 

    
Sir, I would like to suggest, with your protection, that the hon. Member listens to what I am saying because he wants an explanation and I am giving him just that.

Mr Speaker: Order!

There should be order on the right, by the way. There are a lot of conversations on the right.

Continue, Hon. Sichinga.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, to sum this up, we are on top of the situation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, we are on top of the situation in that the transportation is taking place at the moment. The next point I talked about was the procurement and subsequent distribution of seed. Before the ministerial statement was made, I had also provided another ministerial statement to this House in which I explained our plan. I explained the difficulties we were having with regard to the separation we had done. I gave the following information. Firstly, I said that we had split the 900,000 beneficiaries into two groups. The first group comprised of the 659,000 farmers and those that were going to receive their inputs on the basis of the FISP, as we know it. I also explained that 249,000 beneficiaries were to receive this under the e-voucher or e-card and I indicated, also, the districts that were affected. I want to acknowledge that what has been indicated in terms of the districts is correct. It is not just the Southern Province which has been affected, Lusaka Province is affected, Central Province, which includes Mumbwa, Chibombo, Kapiri Mposhi, has also been affected and there is also one district, which is Ndola, which has also been affected. I explained that Choma, Kalomo and Mazabuka, Monze in Southern Province were affected, Chibombo, Mumbwa, Kapiri Mposhi in Central Province were affected, Chongwe in Lusaka was affected, and Ndola on the Copperbelt was affected.

Mr Speaker, I also explained what plans we were making to ensure that those were catered for. Now, in the latest update, as of last Thursday, I informed the House of the challenges that we were having as far as the e-voucher is concerned. I also said that we had produced extra fertiliser from the NCZ and I am pleased to indicate that, in addition …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Sichinga: … to the 70,727 metric tonnes that was under the original the FISP, we had also ordered another 25,600 metric tonnes to cater for the e-voucher areas. Against that, we have …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, my Motion is very straightforward. It is on the distribution of inputs and fertilisers in the districts to the farmers. Is the hon. Minister in order to fail to tell me how these will be distributed to the farmers? I have not questioned him about his programme. I was specific that it is about farming inputs distribution to the farmers.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, Is he in order not to answer that particular issue?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, as you continue, please, take that into account.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I am responding to the point that was made that there was no fertiliser in specific districts, and I am giving that information now. The bulk that was produced against that 25,599 …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to seek your indulgence as to whether the hon. Minister is in order to continue debating, considering that ordinarily, this particular Motion is going to lapse? Unless the Motion is not going to lapse and will be continued tomorrow, this is a very serious issue for the sake of this country.

Mr Speaker: Order!

My ruling is that you have already stated what will happen. The Motion will lapse.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I want to give this information so that we are clear …

The Sergeant-at-Arms rose.

Laughter

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, in the Southern Province, I have provided 2,307 metric tonnes …

Mr Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 14th November, 2013.