Debates- Friday, 15th November, 2013

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 15th November, 2013

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

  PRAYER 
_________
 
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, I rise to acquaint the House with the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 19th November, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Votes:

Head 34 – Human Rights Commission;

Head 27 – Public Service Management Division; and

Head 51 – Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication.

On Wednesday, 20th November, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Budget to consider the following Heads of Expenditure:

Head 21 – Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance;

Head 37 – Ministry of Finance; and

Head 76 – Ministry of Youth and Sport.

Sir, on Thursday, 21st November, 2013, the Business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Votes will be considered:

Head 89 – Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock;

Head 20 – Loans and Investments – Ministry of Local Government and Housing;

Head 29 – Ministry of Local Government and Housing; and

Head 25 – Local Government Service Commission.

Sir, on Friday, 22nd November, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Votes:

Head 77 – Ministry of Defence;

Head 33 – Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry; and

Head 78 – The Zambia Security Intelligence  Services– Office of the President.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

___________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

POLITICAL VIOLENCE

184. Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) whether the suspects in the murder of the following deceased persons who died in circumstances involving political violence had been arrested:

(i) Mr Menyani Zulu who died during the Rufunsa Local Government By-election; and

(ii) Mr Johannes Liakoka and Mr Harrison Chanda who died during the Livingstone Parliamentary By-election;

(b) which political parties the deceased persons mentioned above belonged to;

(c) whether the deceased persons were residents of the areas in which they died and, if not, where they resided;

(d) how Mr Listead Phiri, a member of the Patriotic Front (PF), found himself in the Mkaika Parliamentary Constituency By-election violence when he was a Lusaka resident; and

(e) what measures the ministry had taken to ensure that political party cadres were not exported to Mansa Central Parliamentary Constituency during the by-election.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, I would like to seek your indulgence by stating that some of these matters are actively before the courts of law while others are under investigation. Therefore, our responses will be in line with that status quo.
 
Mr Speaker, the Zambia Police Force took immediate action in the murder of Mr Menyani Zulu. One suspect was arrested and has been appearing before the courts of law for murder. In the case of the death of Mr Johannes Liakoka, a docket of the case was opened and the matter is still under investigation. We have continued to appeal to members of the public with any information that can lead to the successful arrest of the suspects to come forward. In the case of the death of Mr Harrison Chanda, the police arrested one suspect who is facing a charge of murder and the matter is before the courts.

Mr Speaker, the Zambia Police Force does not segregate suspects or victims of crime on the basis of their political affiliation. Instead, they are dealt with as citizens of Zambia. No evidence found on the victims suggested any political affiliation.

Mr Speaker, Mr Menyani Zulu, who died in Rufunsa, was a resident of Chawama Compound of Lusaka. Mr Johannes Liakoka, who died in Livingstone, was a resident of Shikoswe Compound of Kafue and Mr Chanda, who died in Livingstone, was a resident of Monze District.

Mr Speaker, the Zambia Police Force is always mindful of the fact that every citizen of Zambia has the freedom of movement as enshrined in the supreme law of the land, under Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia. Mr Listead Phiri is a complainant in an assault case which is currently before the courts of law. He had personal reasons for being in Mkaika during the period referred to.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the Zambia Police Force has put in place several measures to ensure that political party cadres are not exported to Mansa. These include the following:

(a) mounting three security checkpoints. I made sure that I checked this when I went to Mansa to see what was obtaining. The checkpoints have been mounted on the main roads leading to Mansa, that is, Chipili, Nchelenge, Tuta and Chembe, to check on cadres from other provinces who might go to Mansa with the intention of causing confusion;

(b) deploying police intelligence officers in strategic areas for surveillance purposes; and

(c) advising all the political parties that are taking part in the by-election to educate their members on the need to refrain from all acts of violence before, during and after the elections. All the political parties have assured the Zambia Police Force that the campaigns and elections will be conducted peacefully. I can confirm this because I was in Mansa last weekend to ensure that the measures that have been put in place are adhered to.

I thank you, Sir.
 
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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

VISITING HON. MEMBERS OF THE BUSINESS COMMITTEE OF THE MALAWI NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Mr Speaker: I wish to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of the following hon. Members of the Business Committee of the National Assembly of Malawi:

(a) Hon. Dr G. Chapunda, MP, from the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), Leader in the House and also leader of the delegation;
 
(b) Hon. J. N. Pande, MP and Second Deputy Speaker;

(c) Hon. Dr C. Chiwaya, MP, United Democratic Front (UDF), Chief Whip;
 
(d) Hon. L. Belekanyama, MP, Malawi Congress Party (MCP), Deputy Chief Whip;
and

(e) Mr R. Mapemba, Deputy Clerk of Parliament.

 I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our distinguished guests and warmly welcome them in our presence.

I thank you.

__________

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Muchima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Yesterday, in your ruling, you told the House that you could not comment on matters that are before the courts of law. This has been repeated, today, by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

Mr Speaker, I stood on a point of order the other week, following a witness who testified before one of your Committees, the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), on a matter that was before the courts of law. In your ruling, you said that you would give me a chance to go and clarify matters.

Mr Speaker, is it in order to have double standards on issues that affect the nation?

I seek your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I am quite at a loss because you are referring to two totally different scenarios. The hon. Member for Chembe has asked specific questions regarding specific incidents. Parts (a) to (e) of the Question are seeking information on the status quo of these matters. In response, the hon. Minister has aptly indicated that some of these matters are before the courts of law. We are not here to debate cases that are before the courts of law. I would not permit the House to do so. He is simply apprising the House of the status quo. In my view, we cannot go further than this. The hon. Minister has indicated that investigations are underway. If the hon. Minister has also indicated that the courts are dealing with a murder case, we cannot go beyond that point. Just like I indicated in my ruling yesterday, I cannot dwell on the doctrine of exclusive cognisance because it is before the Supreme Court. That is as far as I can go. There is no inconsistency or what you referred to as double standards, and there will be no double standards ever at all.

The hon. Member for Chembe may continue.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, in response to a follow-up question with regard to the Mansa By-Election, the hon. Minister mentioned that about three security checkpoints have been mounted. We are aware that normally, trouble will flare up when the President goes to a specific area where elections are taking place. What measures have been put in place because we know that the President is going to Mansa on Wednesday?

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, can you accept that two standards have been set in this House, whereby some issues can be discussed while others cannot? I refer to the Rupiah Banda issue where some issues were here in regard to this and, later on, you said that those were different issues because they were in court.

Mr Speaker, are you in order …

Hon. Government Members: Awe!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, is the House in order?

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the phrase, “are you in order” and replace it with, “is the House in order” to have two conflicting standards?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

My ruling is that I am referring this matter to the Committee on Privileges, Absences, and Support Services, that is, on the point of order that you have raised.

Hon. Government Members: Wamona nomba?

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I hope I will finish making my contribution now.

Sir, I was saying that trouble normally arises after the President has visited a place. Now that the President is going to Mansa on Wednesday, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: … what measures have been put in place to disarm cadres who will accompany the President and are likely to cause trouble in Mansa?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Before the hon. Minister responds, just for avoidance of doubt on what I am referring this matter to the Committee on Privileges, Absences, and Support Services for, it is the point of order that has just been raised in light of the ruling I made yesterday. I want the Committee on Privileges, Absences, and Support Services to be clear about that. It is in light with the ruling I made yesterday on a point of order. That is what I want the Committee on Privileges, Absences, and Support Services to deal with.

The hon. Minister may answer.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that speculative question. I have indicated that the measures that we have put in place are not segregative in nature. The whole purpose of mounting the checkpoints is to ensure that those who are involved in violent activities are apprehended and made to account. Similarly, those who are going to Mansa will be screened. So, whether His Excellency the President is going to Mansa on Wednesday or not, these measures have been put in place for everyone who is going to Mansa.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister not aware that those who are causing mayhem are members of the PF who always frequent by-elections and that the Zambia Police Force has done nothing about this? What measures have been taken against those known individuals whom I can name if you want?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, restrict yourselves to one question. For the hon. Minister responding, please, restrict your response to the first question.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we know the agitators of violence in all the political parties. That is why we have continued to appeal to all the political parties, be it the PF, United Party for National Development (UPND) or the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), to discourage their members from engaging in violent activities. So, all that we have been saying …

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Livune: It is the PF.

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

There must be order in the House, however emotive the subject is.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, we have continued to engage the agitators of violence. If the hon. Member has some information relating to this, the Zambia Police Force will gladly receive it.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I think it is only prudent that I declare interest …

Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker:  A point of order is raised.

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs has alleged that all political parties are violent. Can he cite a case where a member of the Alliance for Development and Democracy (ADD) was arrested or involved in some sort of political violence?

Is he in order to make such allegations, Sir?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, as you continue responding, please, clarify that issue.

May the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I was about to declare interest before asking the hon. Minister a question because I was a victim of the PF’s maladministration of justice in the Livingstone By-Election.

Sir, it has generally been established that violence and intolerance in the PF is deep-rooted. In the case of the unfortunate death of Mr Liakoka in Livingstone, it has been established that he was in the company of colleagues on the fateful night. He actually had a telephone conversation with some people shortly before he died. Why has anybody not been questioned, tried, and arrested for the death of that young fellow who died as a result of the PF’s misadventure?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that detailed explanation. However, you made a ruling and I would not want to overlook it. I have indicated that this matter is still under investigation. The hon. Member can always give the police the information that he has because that is what it is looking for.

Sir, I am sure you did not hear me refer to the ADD in my debate. I made reference to all the political parties with large numbers of followers.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Which followers?

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, it is now one year since this happened, but the violence has continued …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

In fact, just call them points of order because they must be procedural by definition.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, today, I have heard another pronouncement by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that this House does not allow matters that are under investigation to be discussed. Does the sub judice rule apply to matters that are under investigation?

Is he in order to mislead this august House, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I reserve my ruling.

May the hon. Member for Chipili continue, please.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I was saying that it is now one year since the murder of Mr Liakoka in Livingstone, but violence has continued in the country. What measures has the hon. Minister of Home Affairs put in place to change the work culture in the Zambia Police Force?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I will make this very clear. The Ministry of Home Affairs has made it clear to the Zambia Police Force that they should perform their duties professionally. When they are handling matters related to violence, they should not look at the political affiliation of the people involved. It does not please us also to see our members involved in these criminal activities. That is why we are not going to shield anyone and have directed the Zambia Police Force to perform their duty professionally and not allow any interference.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, a Mr Zulu …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am very sorry for interrupting business, particularly the hon. Member of Parliament for Rufunsa, by rising on a point of order that is very compelling.

Sir, consistency is not only a virtue, but also a requirement of this House. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs has indicated that the Zambia Police Force has been implored to be very professional in their work. Under a month ago, the whole country, including the hon. Minister and his Deputy, heard the Deputy Commissioner of Police, Dr Solomon Jere, say to the boss of the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) that arresting drunken drivers would affect the popularity of the Ruling Party. Is he, therefore, in order to mislead this House by saying that his ministry has been imploring the police to be professional in their work?

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Minister will clarify that issue in his response.

May the hon. Member for Rufunsa continue, please.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, a Mr Zulu who was killed in …

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
 
Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Sir, when the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena asked the hon. Minister to clarify whether her party was involved in the violent activities, the answer from the hon. Minister was that he was talking about parties with a large following. Is the hon. Minister in order to demean a party that elected an hon. Member of Parliament on account of a majority vote?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Before the hon. Minister responds, I have noticed that most of the points of order that ensue can be raised as follow-up questions. In order to promote progress on this subject, I will be very slow to grant points of order.

Interruptions

Mr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, Mr Zulu who was killed in the Rufunsa By-election was definitely a PF cadre who was transported to Rufunsa by the PF. This is because most people who attended his burial were clad in the PF attire.

Sir, has the family of Mr Zulu been compensated?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you answer, please, bear in mind the intervention from the hon. Member for Keembe about large followings.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. However, it is a new question and so I am not compelled to confirm or deny the issues of insurance. This matter, like I indicated, is still before the courts of law.

Sir, with regard to the issue of political parties, I made a general reference to all the political parties that participate in by-elections. They should remember that we have a responsibility to inculcate a sense of coexistence in our membership. There are hon. Members from different political parties in this House. Therefore, we should make this clear to our followers.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister stated that there is freedom of movement which the deceased, Mr Phiri, enjoyed. He also stated that roadblocks will be mounted to ensure that political cadres are not ferried to Mansa. How does the hon. Minister hope to identify and single out cadres at the roadblocks that will be mounted, especially that we all enjoy freedom of movement?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, let me begin by addressing the issues raised by Hon. Gary Nkombo, Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, who referred to an incident where the Deputy Inspector-General of Police reportedly argued with his colleagues on a matter. That is evidence enough that we are not, in any way, interfering with the work of the Zambia Police Force. However, as a Government, we advise them on the need to be professional in their work.

Sir, the House may have noted that, lately, we have been assuring the Zambia Police Force that they have the protection of the Government in executing their role of policing regardless of who is involved. I would like to assure hon. Members that the President has spoken to me sternly about not letting the police do their work and be cowed by politicians, …

Mr Nkombo: Question.

Mr Lungu. … be they from the PF, opposition political parties or influential citizens by way of business or position in society.

Mr Speaker, further, the police have intelligence reports and they already know the bad eggs in the MMD, PF, UNPD and even the ADD. So, they will mount the roadblocks based on the reports. They will check the buses, trucks and even private cars for people who will be going to Mansa for political reasons. Those with a bad influence, will be asked to leave but, if they manage to go through the roadblocks, then, we will follow them closely and monitor their activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the police acts professionally. When there was a death during the Livingstone By-election, the police swung into action within minutes and arrested seventy-two members of the UPND whom they suspected of committing the murder, including myself, until we were proved innocent. Now, a murder has occurred in Lusaka, but it has taken five days to know who was involved. Why were …

Mr Mwiimbu: They do not even know …

Mr Speaker:  Order, Hon. Member for Monze Central!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Why were you failing to take action in spite of the fact that the police confiscated pangas from your members? They know which members they were collecting pangas from, but no action has been taken. That is a manifestation of unprofessional behaviour.

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the pain with which the hon. Member is asking this question, having gone through the situation which he has referred to. In the Chelston incident, the police have arrested eight of the people who were involved and are still pursuing their investigation to find out who the mastermind was. I am told that the people who committed the murder have been apprehended, but the police believe that somebody big is behind the whole thing and are following that up. They are doing the best …

Mr Nkombo interjected.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Nkombo, that is most inappropriate.

Mr Lungu: … under the circumstances because no two incidents are the same. Each case depends on the circumstances and how it occurred.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, how protected are police officers when they are discharging their functions because, like we saw in Livingstone, one police officer was slapped by an hon. Minster in full view of the public?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I have no specific details relating to that incident. So, I cannot confidently comment on it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the case of the late Mr Johannes Liakoka from Livingstone is ostensibly under investigations. Why then did the hon. Minister of Justice announce that the UNPD killed him?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I do not wish to venture into a matter I am not very familiar with, but I am told that this issue was probably taken to court by the UPND against the hon. Minister of Justice and the matter is still in court. However, I stand to be corrected.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, earlier, the hon. Deputy Minister said that the police do not segregate in their investigations based on political affiliation. I am also aware that this ministry is responsible for administering the registration of societies and associations. May I know how they conduct that part of their functions if they are not interested in the behaviour of the political parties and their members?

Mr Lungu: I know that there is a rule of relevance in this House and it appears to me that this question is totally unrelated to what we are discussing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister recently said that the police fear the PF cadres. What assurance is he giving this House and the nation that any police officers who will not carry out their duties because of fear of cadres will be dealt with?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. Member of Parliament was in the House when I issued a comprehensive statement on the measures we are taking to ensure that police officers are safe and can freely execute their job. I also referred to the concept of Imisango ya ba Chairman where, previously, every Chairperson came up with his/her law. We have told the Police Commander and, through him, to the women and men in uniform that no one will be harassed for doing what is lawful and in the course of his/her duty. No one, including the hon. Minister, should give instructions to the police.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, if I heard the hon. Minister clearly, he said that the police are working professionally. In Livingstone, an hon. Member of Parliament’s arm was broken in front of the police and the person who broke his arm was not arrested. Is that what you call professionalism in the PF?

Laughter

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I do not want to be seen to be ducking questions, but the hon. Member is asking about an hon. Member who had his arm broken by an hon. Minister. The courts of law are there although I am not very comfortable to talk about this. If somebody is injured by another person, whether on or off duty, and he/she does not want the case to be prosecuted, he/she is free to go to court and take civil action against the person who has committed the offence, whether it is an hon. Minister or a police officer.

Sir, having said that, it is worth noting that we are coming from an old order where people believed that they were above the law simply because they belonged to the Ruling Party. That is why I referred to the concept of Imisango ya ba Chairman. In short, we are slowly moving away from that, but it takes time for people to change old habits. The police will take a while to believe that we, as a Government, mean well. Similarly, it will take a while for our colleagues to appreciate that we mean business when we say that you cannot interfere with the work of the police. I appreciate that the mindset is going to take a while to change.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, in the recent past, we have seen police officers scampering in all directions at the sight of cadres dressed in party regalia and carrying swords. 

Interruptions

Mr I. Banda: Sir, how sure is the hon. Minister that police officers who will be manning the roadblocks are strong enough to overpower the party cadres?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, police officers are well trained.

Laughter

Mr Lungu: Sir, they know what tactics to apply when carrying out their duty. Sometimes, they retreat in good faith as part of the strategy. If they used force, some of the situations we have encountered would have ended in bloodshed and people would have blamed the police for being high handed. I can assure the nation that the police at the roadblocks are sufficiently equipped to use reasonable force to contain the men and women with pangas or swords, as you may want to call them. During training, police officers are firstly taught how to protect and preserve life before they can destroy life in order to save another life.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, the PF cadres have been blamed for fueling trouble. Has the police taken into account the fact that other political parties could have …

Interruptions

Mr Bwalya: … taken advantage of the squabbles that are going on in the PF?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, we cannot rule out that possibility. His Honour the Vice-President has spoken about this before. He has explained that bad men and criminals know that it pays to belong to the powerful in society. In our current political dispensation, the most powerful element is either the Government or Ruling Party. If they infiltrate the Ruling Party and get positions, they find it easy to commit crime and be shielded.

Sir, as the PF Government, we are not going to allow this. I think I have made this very clear on the Floor of the House today. To underscore this, the PF is aware that a good number of the people who are causing us grief in the PF are the people who were causing grief to our friends in the MMD. That is how the MMD became unpopular and was booted out eventually. If we are going to survive, we need to conduct some soul-searching exercises and eradicate all the bad seeds. Otherwise, the perpetrators are the same. The same crooks infiltrated the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and eventually made it so unpopular that people found it unpleasant and ignoble to belong to. When the MMD formed Government, the same criminals crept into the MMD and, in no time, contaminated it until its collapse. We know that if we are not careful, the same people will infiltrate and contaminate, choke us, and we will die any time. At the moment, we are trying to eradicate these people. That is why His Honour the Vice-President said that power normally attracts the bad people in society.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

LICENSED MINES IN KASEMPA

185. Mr Pande asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development:

(a) how many licensed mines operated in Kasempa District; and

(b) of the licensed mines, how many were owned by indigenous Zambians.

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Musukwa): Mr Speaker, there are fourteen mining-licence holders in Kasempa District. The House may wish to know that all the fourteen licences, which are operating in Kasempa, are small-scale licences.

Sir, out of the fourteen small-scale mining licences, five are 100 per cent owned by indigenous Zambians while four are majority owned by indigenous Zambians. There are an additional fifty-six large-scale prospecting licences and sixteen prospecting permits in Kasempa.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, from the fifty-six large-scale mining prospects, is there any hope that one of them will be given a licence and conduct proper mining operations in Kasempa?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Speaker, yes, once credible information that can turn the prospecting licence into a mining operation is generated, we shall ensure that, that is done.

I thank you, Sir.

_____________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 68 – (Ministry of Tourism and Art – K97,818,234).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate this Vote. I would like to make a few observations that may be of help to the PF Government.

Mr Muntanga: That is right.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, no matter how much is spoken about prioritising the tourism sector, if certain things are not done correctly, that will remain mere talk and will not assist us, as a country.

Mr Chairperson, my first observation is that the hon. Minister and her staff must be prepared to bite the bullet and agree that the PF Government has altered Zambia’s tourism brand. We have always marketed Zambia as a peaceful destination and that is a serious matter. In product development, once you change one element, the whole product gets altered and this is precisely what is going on. She must be able to bite the bullet, take this matter head on and attempt, if possible, to make Zambia a peaceful-tourist destination. If this is not done, the loss will not only affect the PF, but also the country as a whole. I think this is very important for purposes of the development of tourism. It is quite unimaginable that any one of us, here, can go to the Liuwa National Park via the Bulozi Plains for a holiday as a result of what is happening in the Western Province. With what has been happening and what has now become public knowledge in the one last week or so, it is very unlikely that any reasonable person would want to spend leisure time in the townships of Lusaka without taking extra precautions. With the developments in information technology, information moves quite fast. Immediately something starts happening on the streets of this town or anywhere else in this country, people get to know about it. Therefore, tourists who would like to travel to Zambia for a holiday begin to think twice about Zambia as a tourist destination. They have dented the country’s image. Therefore, the PF Government must take this matter seriously and try to repair it.

Sir, my second observation is with regard to the unnecessarily high staff turnover at the ministry’s senior management level, boards and management in parastatal organisations under this ministry. It goes without saying that this is one of the ministries that have been changed frequently from the time the PF came into office. We have seen particular functions of tourism being moved from one ministry to the other. At some point, hon. Ministers, Permanent Secretaries and boards were changed several times. It is like each hon. Minster who goes to this ministry wants to change the board. I am waiting to see how the Auditor-General’s Report on the governance of parastatal organisations under this ministry will be like. There have been many changes in this ministry that are undesirable. I hope that now that we have reached this far, probably, the hon. Minister and her staff have settled down and will focus on what needs to be done.

Sir, we co-hosted the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) Conference with Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe maintained most of the staff that started the preparations for the UNWTO Conference but, in our case, by the time the conference was starting, there were new faces. The UNWTO Conference is over and, again, we have seen new faces. This is undesirable.

Mr Chairperson, as a Christian who is going to heaven, I always want to be frank.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, at some of our missions abroad, the Tourism Promotion Officers, managers or attachés are not suitable for what we want to achieve.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, the PF Government must be candid enough to appoint people that are qualified and experienced to take up such positions in Zambia’s missions abroad. Some of the people that have been sent there are denting the image of tourism and the country even by merely associating them to tourism.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, let them be given other functions like, maybe, First or Second Secretary – Political or something else and not positions to do with tourism. Anyone of us can call any one of the missions where there is a Tourism Promotion Manager, officer or attaché and ask to speak to the person who is handling tourism there. You will tell even from the way they answer the telephone that this person could have been picked from the street even from the way he/she will answer the phone.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, that will not help us, as a country. We are destroying a very important economic sector.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, if there are people whose recall I can advocate for, it is some of the people who are not qualified to handle a specialised function, like tourism, in a mission.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, this is not an area where you can think of employing relatives or friends.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: And cadres.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, this is denting the image of Zambia’s tourism.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, the other area where I would like the PF to be very candid and serious about is in regard to what we advised the Government earlier on when the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs was created. At that time, we advised them not to scatter some of the key elements that form Zambia’s tourism product.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, in a country like ours where, for a long time, our tourism will most likely be nature based and supported by culture, it is only right that the key assets that constitute that nature are part of tourism and fall under one sector which is an economic sector that is interested in the development of tourism.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: For example, Mr Chairperson, what was raised yesterday and what the hon. Minister presented regarding heritage sites and so on and so forth, clearly shows that there is a problem there. I advocate that the Museum’s Board and the National Heritage Conservation Commission must be taken back to the Ministry of Tourism and Art …

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: … so that we can harness tourism correctly.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, this will continue to be a problem. If they do not want to face the reality, it will continue to haunt them. We need to move the institutions back to the Ministry of Tourism and Art. The confusion that is likely to occur there is that one ministry may focus on one area, like Chiefs for example, and ignore the key assets such as those that fall under heritage, including all the waterfalls that the hon. Minister talked about such as the Victoria and Lumangwe falls. In the current structure, these fall under the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs.

Ms Imenda: How?

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, that way, you are splitting a tourism product and this will hamper development in the tourism industry. So, it is very important that the two ministries agree between themselves without trying to appease one another. If this is left as it is, the benefit or damage will affect the whole country.

Mr Chairperson, we must also be concerned about the regular policy changes and legislative environment in the tourism sector. Too many things are changed in the course of a year. The gestation period for any investment in the tourism sector is long. If one invests in tourism today, he/she will not be sure what the policy will be like, for instance, on Value Added Tax (VAT), with regard to the services being offered in the sector. By the time he/she finishes developing his/her enterprise, the investor will not be sure of a lot of things.

For purposes of developing and prioritising tourism, the PF Government must look at long-term measures. Sir, I would like to suggest to the hon. Ministers of Finance, and Tourism and Art to look at things that should not change in the next Budget. I cannot talk about the five-year term now because it is almost over but, whatever period you have left, you must look at the long-term measures so that the hon. Minister of Finance does not come to this House yearly to revise taxation in the tourism sector. Talk about what you want to do for the next three years so that the would-be investors are confident that the environment will remain unchanged from the time they first open their enterprise.

Mr Chairperson, as a country, we must get concerned when major service providers like the British Airways (BA) pull out of the country. I know that we have talked about the BA a lot in the last few months because most people used it. However, there are other major tour operators like Wilderness Safaris that are leaving the country for Zimbabwe. There should be something that we are not doing correctly here. These are issues that we should address if we are going to talk about prioritising the tourism sector in this country. Let us not just keep talking about it. 

Sir, many times, we have heard that we must take advantage of Zambia’s co-hosting of the UNWTO Conference. However, the policies that you are proposing to implement and the actions you have taken are a complete opposite of the hype that was there prior to and during the conference. A good example is on taxation where services have been included in the bracket for VAT. These are areas that will help us. So, let us not just talk about prioritising.

Sir, when a sector is prioritised, it must be evident from what is on the ground. We have talked about this before. So far, there is very little evidence of its being prioritised under the PF Government with regard to real actions.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, people talk about prioritising sectors continually. We have heard this story of prioritisation before. However, what are the practical steps to demonstrate that the sector has been prioritised? There is very little to show for it.

In conclusion, Sir, time and again, we have advised that the Ministry of Tourism and Art, in collaboration with other ministries, must prioritise information gathering and harmonise the various data from around the country and the world regarding tourism and investment in the sector.

Mr Chairperson, we have heard of situations where the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) goes to market investment opportunities, but the information they take with them is completely wrong. The areas of priority in the tourism sector, such as the Northern Circuit that the hon. Minister was talking about, are not the areas that the ZDA goes to market out there.

Sir, two days ago, the hon. Minister invited us to a meeting and the ZDA gave a report on tourist-arrival figures from ten or fifteen years ago. It is amazing how two institutions within the same Government can give conflicting information. One institution told us that the arrival figure was 200,000 per year and would reach 1,000,000 by 2018. The tourism officials, on the other hand, told us that the figure is now at 900,000 per year and, by next year, will be 1,100,000. I can only imagine what sort of information this sector is taking with it when it goes to perform international functions.

Sir, the hon. Minister talked about inviting big chain hotels to invest in this country. I can only imagine what their reaction would be if their first point of call was the ZDA. They would be told that tourist-arrival figures here are only 200,000 per year. Do you think that a serious investor like Marriott Hotels, for example, would come to Zambia to cater for 200,000 tourists?

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, when investors go to the Ministry of Tourism and Art, they are given different figures. Which serious investor would want to put money in an economy where the Government is inconsistent in terms of figures? This is free advice I am giving. As a person who is going to heaven, I am probably doing this for the last time.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: We can choose to keep this information to ourselves until we come into power, then implement it. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Sikazwe: Question.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to debate.

Sir, allow me to thank the hon. Minister for recognising my efforts in this industry. Professional ethics demand that when a colleague recognises your efforts, you acknowledge it.

To this effect, Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask my colleagues, here, to allow me to take off the hat of a politician and put on that of a professional so that I can contribute freely. I also want to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and the President for the effort that they made by removing duty on imported goods for this sector for the whole of this year and I ask them to do the same next year.

Mr Chairperson, the policy statement presented by the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art yesterday was holistic and comprehensive and I would be grateful if she could give me a copy so that I can educate myself with some of the materials that she referred to. Hon. Minister, I have a few comments to make and I hope that they will be of help.

Sir, Hon. Belemu’s presentation was good and I would like to treat it as my own. The hon. Minister said a lot of things yesterday. She probably even mentioned what I am about to talk about now. I do not know what she said about the world’s trends on tourism and tourists today but, before I come to that, I want to recognise the efforts of Professor Kalifungwa and Hon. Pande, from whom I took over office, for …

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: … moving tourism from a social sector to an economic sector. It was not an easy task.

Sir, where do tourists come from? This is the question that must be asked when it comes to tourism marketing. There is a need to ask where tourists are going and why they go there.

Sir, most of the tourists coming to Zambia are from the United Kingdom (UK). I think that is the first country we get our tourists from through South Africa and then the United States of America (USA), but the most travelled nationals are the Germans. I think you have to make an effort to buy in the German tourists because they spend quite a lot of money when they travel. Today, most tourists go to East Asia. Despite all the problems in Bali, Indonesia and other areas, tourists still go there. Why do you think they go there? You need to find this out.

Mr Chairperson, tourism has expanded in terms of the types. You will be very surprised, hon. Minister, that, today, we have funeral and disaster tourism. Can you imagine that other than spa or health tourism, there is disaster tourism? You have to explore …

Lt. Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: All disasters.

Dr Kaingu: … why, today, we have what we call disaster tourism. Yesterday, you talked about South Africa and Zimbabwe getting more tourists than us. I do not know, hon. Minister, if you are aware that there is a strong relationship between colonialism and tourism. Most of the whites who moved from here did not go back to the UK, but went to Zimbabwe and those are the whites who are inviting their colleagues or relatives from the UK to Zimbabwe. I do not know if you are aware that South Africa is a community country because there, you find …

Mr Musenge: Community country?

Dr Kaingu: Yes, it is a community country. There is the Asian community, Italian community and so on and so forth. It is because of this that they get a lot of tourists from these communities’ countries of origin. It is important that you explore the relationship between colonialism and tourism. Here, in Zambia, for your information, most of the investors were selous scouts. I do not know if you are aware about this. I learnt about this through research and investigations into this sector. When you see some of them being very rough towards the human resource here, it may be because of their past glory.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Magande, the former Minister of Finance and National Development then and I lost an opportunity to grow Livingstone. You are aware that we accompanied the late President Mwanawasa to Shamasheke where about 7,000 hectares of the Dambwa Forest were supposed to have been alienated for tourism development so that you could attract investors both locally and internationally to invest in those plots. This was not meant for ordinary streets, but much more. The investment in Livingstone was going to be much more.

Mr Chairperson, tourism, as you have heard from Hon. Belemu, buys a lot from culture. If you really want Livingstone to be your tourism capital, you have to make a lot of changes. Architecture is one of the areas where you have to make some changes. If you are just going to paint the same buildings and continue building the same way without mainstreaming culture into Livingstone, it will just be like changing the streets of Harem in USA. You need to reposition Livingstone culturally. In the Zambian culture, for instance, we use grass for roofing and Africans do not have a rectangular way of building. We build round structures. I do not know whether it is too late, but you should encourage new buildings to adopt the African way of constructing.

Mr Chairperson, there is what we call pull and push factors in marketing. You have done what you have done in Livingstone, but this is just the beginning of a precise … – what is the word again? Do not worry I will find an alternative word.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: The pull factor is very important. You have done your best in terms of reconstructing Livingstone … – what else can we say? That is the best that you have done, anyway. You need to … – Ooh! I have no time.

Mr Lubinda: Wapwisha, iwe.

Dr Kaingu: You need to lobby. Otherwise, Livingstone is going to be a ghost town. What I saw when I was Minister of Tourism Environment and Natural Resources is that if you want to call a place like Livingstone a tourist city, you need to host a lot of conferences for the United Nations (UN) and African Union (AU). The one that you have just hosted should not be the last one. You must attend many UN conferences so that you and your officers can lobby.

The Chairperson: Order, Dr Kaingu!

I have been listening very carefully. I thought you would remember to address the hon. Minister through the Chairperson.

Dr Kaingu: Ooh!

Laughter

The Chairperson: You seem to be talking directly to her.

Dr Kaingu: Can I just continue because I am almost …

The Chairperson: No.

Laughter

The Chairperson: I have not said that you should stop debating, but stop directing …

Dr Kaingu: I mean can I continue addressing her since I have already finished, Sir.

The Chairperson: I will curtail your debate, Dr Kaingu. I am asking you to address the hon. Minister through the Chair.

Dr Kaingu: Through you, Mr Chairperson, Sir …

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: … she has said many good things about tourism, but has not looked at the bad side of tourism and that is the environment. Actually, tourism can be a predator. The way tourists come and consume your culture and products can be damaging to your environment. I did not hear you talk about that.

Mr Chairperson, I did not hear the hon. Minister refer to how she is going to improve and promote local tourism. This is one area which has given me problems. I have been trying to research to see how I could help the industry in this regard. How can we improve disposable income for Zambians so that they can go and visit some of the places because tourism is not just for foreigners?

In fact, Sir, tourism in Zimbabwe, South Africa and Botswana, maybe even Namibia, has grown very fast because of the locals. I know that our problem is that we do not have disposable income. I do not know how we are going to help in that area. The people I mentioned earlier and I tried to improve the accommodation side of tourism and more lodges came up, but the area that has really given me problems, and I think Hon. Pande will agree with me, is to improve Zambians’ disposable income. Maybe, not necessarily improving their disposable income, but giving them the impetus to visit areas like South Luangwa since it is not part of our culture to take families for holidays. I do not know how you are going to do that. It is your challenge, hon. Minister, and I do not know if you have already started working on it. That is a big challenge I am trying to help you with. I have been reading, Mr Chairperson, and I will continue doing so and probably ask you to join me in reading to find how we can help Zambians enjoy the local facilities that are there.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Tourism and Art which the people of Lupososhi Constituency support.

Sir, my contribution will mostly be on local tourism. There has been a lot of talk on how to attract foreign tourists to come to Zambia, which is a very good thing, but there has been very little talk on how to encourage local tourism.

Mr Chairperson, the people of Lupososhi would like to go and view the Victoria Falls in Livingstone, but they are constrained because of the cost that is involved in travelling from Luwingu to Livingstone. This is also compounded by the cost of accommodation when they get to Livingstone.

It is expensive to go for a holiday in Zambia. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to get the people in the tourism industry to look at the cost component of tourism so that the local person can also be afforded a chance to visit the various tourist attractions in the country.

Sir, the other issue that needs to be looked at seriously is that of licensing. Last year, I debated the same Vote on the Floor of this House. I said that it is costly to engage in tourism business because of the licensing. We have about eight licences that are supposed to be issued by eight licensing authorities. This needs to be harmonised so that the cost of operating any hospitality venture in Zambia can be reduced. By so doing, we will also help those that are already in the industry to structure their costing system so that it can be cheaper for the Zambian to visit some places in our country.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I thought I should mention is that of tax incentives. In some countries, when you visit a place in a group, as tourists, you pay less tax than someone who goes as an individual. This will also help to attract both foreign and local group tourists. People can pool their resources because when they get to a particular destination, they will enjoy reduced taxes as opposed to a flat kind of taxation. This will also improve the revenue base of the tourism sector.

Sir, I have also noticed that there is what is called regional packaging in tourism. This is where all the advertising of tourist sites in a region is put together. However, this has to be done with care because our neighbouring countries have a strong tourism industry while we are still struggling to make sure that our tourism industry is stable. So, while this is a good idea, caution must be taken so that we do not put our colleagues in the region at an advantage. Then, we will end up with few tourists coming to our country because they will go to other countries where the infrastructure is better and well developed.

Mr Chairperson, this is something we need to think about. The people of Lupososhi, Luwingu and other neighbouring constituencies such as Chifunabuli and Pambashe are looking forward to this, particularly with the establishment of the Northern Circuit. I want to believe that the Northern Circuit includes Muchinga, Northern and Luapula provinces. There are a lot of tourism attractions in the Northern Circuit.

For a long time, there has been a lot of rhetoric on upgrading Kasaba Bay. Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to give Kasaba Bay the attention it deserves so that it can contribute to the economic development of this country.

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: The construction of Kasaba Bay Airport should be speeded up. Whatever issues there are need to be resolved. In the meantime, we wish to appeal to the hon. Minister that the Kasaba Bay Project must continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, we have the Mpulungu Harbour and Nsumbu National Park, …

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … which is on the banks of Lake Tanganyika. Once the Kasaba Bay Project has been completed, all these areas I have mentioned will bring a lot of revenue to the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: Bwekeshapo, mwaiche.
 
Mr Bwalya: Sir, we also need to promote district tourism. If anything, we need to come up with a concept called District Tourism Circuit. This is because in the various districts of this country, there are various tourism attractions such as the source of the Zambezi River in Ikeleng’i. If Ikeleng’i District could be developed, a lot of people, including the locals, would want to go and see the source of the Zambezi River.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Sir, there are also a lot of cultural groupings that are in different districts. We have the Kalela dance in Luwingu District that is performed by people from abena Mukulu. It is a beautiful dance. If the ministry, in conjunction with the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, could promote this dance, it would generate revenue.

Mr Chairperson, tourism needs to be broadened and not looked at from a narrow perspective. There are areas such as the Kabwata Cultural Village, Heroes Square, the Old Parkway Station, the Museum and so on and so forth that can bring a lot of revenue if they are developed.

Mr Chairperson, we hosted the UNWTO Conference recently and there are a lot of things that transpired at the ministry. It is, therefore, important that members of the public are given an explanation of what really transpired. Members of staff from the Ministry of Tourism and Art were involved in a lot of issues relating to the conference and some of them are now being probed by the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC). The nation would like to know if these people have been cleared because they belong to a ministry which handles tourists and a lot of revenue. According to the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP), the Ministry of Tourism and Art can bring a lot of revenue to the Treasury. In turn, that revenue can be used to develop roads and improve the livelihood of the people of Luwingu District, for example.

Sir, I note that Programme 1124, Activity 700 – Computerisation of Tourism Licensing System has been allocated K500,000. I hope that as we implement this Budget, we shall harmonise the issuance of licences. However, the biggest challenge that the ministry is facing is information dissemination. I fail to understand a situation where a foreigner is given the opportunity to see a business prospect which the local people have not been privy to and did not know that they can develop a particular area. So, information dissemination in the Ministry of Tourism and Art is cardinal, as it will enable those with the money to access the information on possible tourism sites that they can invest in. This applies to the reporting of journalists in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. We do not get a lot of reports on issues to do with tourism. So, there is a need for collaboration between the Ministries of Tourism and Art, and Information and Broadcasting. The synergy will help this country to develop the tourism sector. Not until information is disseminated will people know what needs to be done. So, hon. Minister, information dissemination must be given the seriousness it deserves and Zambians must be given priority when an investment opportunity arises in the tourism sector. Then, they can decide whether or not to invest in a particular tourism site.

Sir, I am glad that you gave me the opportunity to debate and I wish to end here.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote. Looking at the number of people indicating, I will be very brief.

Sir, let me start by informing the hon. Minister, whom I know is very passionate about the ministry and is also hardworking, that a number of issues that have been raised by the previous speakers, particularly Hon. Belemu and Hon. Dr Kaingu, were very important. I take some of their words as my own. However, I would like to mention one issue which was raised by Hon. Belemu, and that is the postings in the Foreign Service. It is very important that you look at who is representing your ministry in these missions. You are supposed to liaise with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on who should take up positions for tourism. This is an indication that we are serious about tourism. Tourism and Art is an important ministry which Zambia could depend on and surpass the mining industry, if we put all our efforts together. We should acknowledge its importance by posting suitably-qualified people in missions abroad, unlike what is happening now. You can make a random phone call to any of the missions where there is a tourism attaché and see what will happen, just like Hon. Belemu said.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia needs to take a leaf from countries like Singapore, the Seychelles,  and Cyprus whose economies depend on tourism. Unlike these countries I have mentioned, Zambia has the potential and facilities to attract a good number of tourists into the country.  What are we doing about this industry? I would like to appeal to the Government to pay attention to this ministry. In the 2014 Budget, which we are currently debating, I have not seen any incentives that will attract people to invest in the tourism industry. Hon. Belemu talked about the Value Added Tax (VAT) and I did the same when I was debating the Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Finance. The 16 per cent VAT which has been imposed on the sector will not do us any good at all. We are now competing with Zimbabwe, and yet, at one point, we felt that Zambia would surpass Zimbabwe because of the problems that it was facing. Unfortunately for us, Zimbabwe is still ahead of us. We are talking about less than 1 million tourist arrivals while Zimbabwe is talking about more than 2 million. So, we should take a leaf out of Zimbabwe. My appeal is that those incentives, which were applied this year in the tourism industry, should continue to be applied. 

Mr Chairperson, I am a proponent of doing away with hunting blocks because they are not doing this country any good. We need to move into game farming. By so doing, we will be achieving two things. That is, having enough animals as well as preserving our natural resources. People who are in this industry will tell you that there is nothing they are getting from it, and yet they will not leave the industry. When they complain about the lack of business and the challenges they face and you ask them to leave the business, they will refuse to do so.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to commend the hon. Minister for banning the hunting of lions. You cannot keep killing lions when you do not have the numbers. Zambia has one of the best lions in the world in terms of size. So, let us maintain that so that we do not reach a stage where we will be telling our great grandchildren that this country once had lions, just like we hear stories of the existence of dinosaurs once upon a time, but which are now extinct and we just see them in pictures. Hon. Minister, that was a good initiative and I know that your decision was met with resistance, but that is what happens when you make a good decision.

Sir, I would also like to talk about game management areas (GMAs). There are a number of GMAs that are depleted. My proposal is that you should try to encourage Zambians, to discriminate positively towards Zambians so that the industry is dominated by indigenous Zambians. Apart from mining, tourism is the future economic mainstay of this country. To achieve this, we need to put deliberate incentives in place to encourage Zambians to invest in this sector and avoid being held to ransom by some of the foreigners who have invested in this industry. The hon. Minister should not allow Zambians to be used as fronts in this industry. We must help genuine and pure Zambians, if I may use that term, to succeed in the tourism industry.

Sir, I have in mind the GMAs like the Musele-Matebo whose wildlife has been depleted. It is in such areas where the Government should invite Zambians and work with them. This will help resuscitate the natural habitats for wildlife so that they can go back to what they used to be. Otherwise, the depletion of the GMAs will even spread to other areas.

Mr Chairperson, we are talking about promoting tourism. However, the travel advisors in the world are already advising their citizens not to travel to Zambia because of what is happening. So, I would like to appeal to the PF Government to put an end to the violence that we are experiencing because it is not helping us at all. We are speaking like people who are interested in seeing our country develop. We have also always said that the greatest asset that we have in this country, apart from wildlife, is the people. Zambians are naturally peaceful. So, if Zambia is a peaceful country, we should ensure that we keep it that way. However, if foreigners read about what is happening, particularly in regard to the intra-party violence, they will be reluctant to come to Zambia. The violence that is taking place in the PF, which is the Ruling Party, is sending wrong signals to the rest of the world. So, our colleagues on your right have to stop this intra-party violence. There are better ways of resolving issues. As Zambians, we do not resort to hacking each other when there is a problem. This is a new phenomenon which our friends are bringing into this country and I beg them stop it. This is not a matter that just affects the PF.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to find out from the hon. Minister what has happened to the Northern Circuit Development Programme. We need to resuscitate it. As one hon. Colleague said with regard to the Kasaba Bay, the idea was to prolong the tourists’ stay in the country. If we improved the Northern Circuit and other places, a tourist will spend two days in Livingstone and will be attracted to go to the northern part of the country to see the Kabwelume and NKundalila falls, for example. All the days that a tourist will spend in Zambia will translate into more revenue for this country. This revenue will contribute into the gross domestic product (GDP) of this country. We want the GDP that tourism is contributing to increase from the 2 or 3 per cent to something like 8 per cent like Zimbabwe’s tourism is contributing to the GDP in that country.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what is happening to the source of the Zambezi River in the North-Western Province. We have paid more attention to the baby, which is the Victoria Falls, and not the mother, the source of the Zambezi River.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: The source of the Zambezi River, in the North-Western Province, has been neglected. The road that leads to this place is in a terrible state. It is the responsibility of the hon. Minister to address this matter and I know that she can. She should ensure that this place is taken care of.

Mr Chairperson, I had promised to be brief. So, I would like to end here.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for her policy statement. I would also like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to give my side of the story regarding the tourism industry in this country. I must declare that I am a Member of the Hon. Mr Speaker’s Committee that understudies this ministry.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, it is nice to see you in the Chair after a long time. Before business was suspended, I was saying that I am a Member of the Hon. Mr Speaker’s Committee that oversees the Ministry of Tourism and Art. Having been the Chairperson of this Committee for many years, I have a few comments to make.

Sir, it is gratifying to note that, over the years, we have managed to reduce the cost of licensing in this industry because it was a big bottleneck that discouraged the development of the industry. I have noticed that the hon. Minister responsible for this portfolio is not even seated in her place. I will depend on the hon. Deputy Minister, who is a new man, and I hope that he will take note of what I will say and share it with the hon. Minister.

Sir, tourism is a courtesy industry which can only thrive in tranquil conditions and not in stressful conditions. I will, however, come back to this at the end of my discourse.
 
Mr Chairperson, the first bottleneck in the Ministry of Tourism and Art is the notion that the ministry is all about the Victoria Falls and the Victoria Falls equals the Ministry of Tourism and Art. In the same way, the PF and their predecessors kept thinking that the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) equals maize and maize equals the FRA. We should start coming out of that mode and broaden our tentacles. We need to be robust in approaching the development of this industry.

Sir, there are a number of bottlenecks that the hon. Minister and her team can work on in order to increase the number of tourists coming to our country. One of them is the issue of the yellow fever. Time and time again, we have been told that there is yellow fever in Zambia, and yet the inhabitants of this country know that this is not true. Each time we leave Zambia for certain destinations, we are subjected to the yellow fever vaccination. We are also told that for a very long time, maybe, from time immemorial, we have not recorded a single case of yellow fever in this country. So, one wonders why we should be categorised as a country that harbours the yellow fever. That is an area that the hon. Minister and her team can robustly look at so that we can be exempted from the yellow fever vaccination.

Sir, another bottleneck, in my view, is something that many people may not be aware about and this is the European Union (EU) insurance travel ban on our country. It is generally believed that people from developed countries that value life more than us, will simply not travel without any insurance in case of an accident. Zambia is a victim of the EU travel insurance ban. The Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication can complement the Ministry of Tourism and Art by ensuring that the Aviation authorities perceive our skies to be safe. Lusaka is the hub for all destinations in this country, save for Livingstone and Ndola that receive international flights. That travel ban entails that, as a tourist, when you leave Lusaka to go to another destinations within the country, you do it at your own risk. There is no insurance that will cover you. To me, that is a huge disadvantage which has affected the number of tourist arrivals in our country.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of visas is something that we have discussed over and over again. People who come into the country under the category of tourist must be given flexible visa conditions because this is an industry that requires harnessing. This is a fragile industry.

Sir, time and time again, we have heard how East African countries such as Tanzania and Kenya have not only been threatened by the Al-Qaida or Al Shabab-related elements but also attacked. That, alone, causes people to fear to travel to some destinations. Today, I challenge the hon. Minister to go to Jomo Kenyatta International Airport in the face of the recent terrorist attacks in Kenya and see how many tourist arrivals there are in that country. She can also go to Kilimanjaro International Airport in Tanzania and see how many people descend from the skies of Tanzania just to see Mount Kilimanjaro, Mount Meru, the Ngorongoro Crater and so on and so forth. Then you will appreciate that what we have in this country is actually child’s play.

Mr Chairperson, in Livingstone, which is the hub for tourism, I can challenge the hon. Minister that there may not be more than one hundred game-viewing vehicles that are owned, a problem that I will address, by the same group of companies, Sun International. They have formed a cartael to make sure that the tourists that are buying tour packages, mostly from South Africa, leave their money in South Africa and come to Zambia just to have a beer or a shot of whisky for a day, see the Victoria falls and go back. So, the only money they leave here is what they spend on Mosi and Castle lagers. They leave the money for accommodation and tours with the tour operators in South Africa. That is a matter that the hon. Minister needs to address.

Sir, the Zambezi River, which is a shared water resource, and whose source is in the Kaleni Hills, is a very serious subject of discussion. I think that when we go into the Yellow Book, we ought to find an area where money has been allocated in order to harness the source of that river. That is very important because if we do not do this, one day, we shall not only cry of the small number of tourist arrivals, but also the Itezhi-tezhi Dam and Kafue Gorge because the river requires to be harnessed.

Sir, the other issue that I would like to talk about is that of the policy in the Government. Yesterday, we heard the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs claim that Zambia National Heritage Conservation Commission is under her ministry. In her policy statement, the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art also made a similar claim. I think that there is a need for policy harmonisation. The same can be said about traditional ceremonies. One wonders which Government ministry they fall under. I know they are intertwined and interrelated, but there has to be a clear-cut policy as to which ministry should supervise which department. That is something that I expect the hon. Minister to clarify as she winds up her policy debate. She has to tell us what the PF’s policy is regarding where the Zambia National Heritage Conservation Commission is domiciled. Is it in her ministry or the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs?

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister is aware that I have a passion for this. I am a firm believer that tourism is much more sustainable than any other activity such as mining, for example, regardless of how much profit one wants to make. This country has been grappling with the issue of the Australians wanting to establish a mine in the Lower Zambezi. I think they are called Zambezi Resources. The hon. Ministers of Mines, Energy and Water Development, and Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection and Tourism and Art need to sit down and ensure that they give preference to the Ministry of Tourism and Art because tourism is much more sustainable than mining.

Hon. Imenda: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Yesterday, I discussed the big potholes and the slag that is reminiscent of the chiefdom of Nkana. That is all that mining is going to leave for us. Tourism is going to employ our people, and harness the flora and the fauna. It will probably last as long as eternity if we harness it properly.

Sir, there is a need for the hon. Minister to understand that as she goes bungee jumping and goes into the Devils Lake, or whatever they call it, she must be aware that local tourism must also be harnessed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: A local person from Mukuni, Sekute or Musokotwane villages cannot walk into the Royal Livingstone or David Livingstone hotels to have a coca-cola. He/she is stopped at the gate in the guise of that draconian placard, “The right of admission is reserved.” Sir, Tongas are wealthy. We can go into a place with no shoes on, but with a lot of money in the pocket.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: The issue of discriminating people based on the way they look should come to an end forthwith and the hon. Minister must drive that agenda. The issue of not allowing blue taxis into hotel premises must come to an end and we can only depend on her to do this. If you do not do it under the PF, Madam, we will engage you when we come into power because we know you are quite enthusiastic so that you ensure that taxis are allowed into hotel premises.

Mr Mwiimbu: She will be a board member.

Mr Nkombo: We will find a way of getting help from you. Finally and most importantly, my introduction was that tourism can only thrive under a tranquil situation. Last week, when the PF members or supporters fought amongst themselves in Chelston and one person was killed in the fight, a renowned comedian from South Africa and of American origin called Trevor Noah, happened to be on the same road where the fights were. He is quoted on his facebook page as having said, “We met a gang of people wielding machetes and knobkerries and we would have been killed.” He is a very renowned human being and just that flash of information from him, resulting from the PF’s carelessness in maintaining peace and order in the country, will reduce the number of tourist arrivals because no one wants to die and, worse still, when there is no travel insurance.

Sir, this should be a timely warning for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to assist your ministry to ensure that the PF members or supporters who cause problems are caged and tamed. They should be tranquilised if possible so that they stop this rot of disturbing the peace of this country because we would like tourism to flourish.

Mr Chairperson, I cannot emphasise this more than I have. The PF must stop this rot forthwith, and the one who should take the bold step to help the hon. Minister’s efforts is the President. This is because, for as long as the hon. Minister continues to work the way she does, and the President is just sitting in State House doing nothing, we will not achieve anything. This hooliganism in the PF should stop if you want tourism to flourish in this country.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

The Minister of Tourism and Art (Mrs Masebo): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to wind up the debate on my policy statement.

Sir, I want to start by thanking all the hon. Members who have spoken. If this was the way we debated the Votes for all the ministries, this country would progress. I have taken note of all the submissions that have been made. I can only say that, as a ministry, we shall try to act on some of the suggestions that have been put forward, which are very positive and will come back through a ministerial statement, to ensure that some of the issues are addressed in the manner that they have been suggested.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi raised a matter concerning the preparations for the UNWTO Conference. I had made a Government assurance, here, that a statement will be issued on the UNWTO Conference next week and these issues will be brought to light.

Mr Chairperson, thank you for the support on the ban on hunting the lion. As Zambians, it is very important that we preserve our lions. Otherwise, as one hon. Member said, we will just remain with pictures of lions.

Sir, the issue of the policy requires a response. Let me say that as things stand at the moment, there is really no confusion. Like I stated yesterday, the statutory powers of the President to create a ministry are in a Statutory Instrument (SI); a gazette notice where functions are given. The policy on culture is the responsibility of the Ministry of Tourism and Art while the two institutions, that is, the Zambia National Heritage Conservation Commission and the National Museums Board are still under the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. Therefore, it was in order for the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to talk about heritage and museums, just as it is in order for me to talk about culture and art.

Mr Chairperson, I further stated that the President came here and directed the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art to harmonise all the culture and art functions that are scattered in several ministries. By the way, there are several ministries beyond the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs where culture and art functions are scattered. Even in the 2013 Budget, there is about K22 billion scattered in all the ministries for functions of culture and art. Those who understand how the Government works know that once the President makes a statement here, it becomes policy and is not debatable because it becomes law. Therefore, as a ministry, we have taken the Memorandum of Understanding to the Cabinet. In principle, the Cabinet has authorised that the Bill to create the National Art, Culture and Heritage Commission, whose function will be to look at all the issues of culture and art, including heritage and museums, be brought here. One of the functions of the ministry talks about cultural industry. This simply means heritage and museums. Therefore, you were right when you said, in your debate, that those are products of tourism and His Excellency the President understands that. The PF Manifesto is very clear on that matter. The Bill will be brought here and that means that the National Heritage Commission, National Museums Board and all the cultural issues will be under the commission called the National Art, Culture and Heritage Commission. By virtue of the policy on culture being under the Ministry of Tourism and Art, and because the PF Government wants to create employment through tourism, the institutions that I have just mentioned will fall under the Ministry of Tourism and Art. At that stage, the resources will be collected from all the ministries even after the Budget has been passed so that they are brought to the commission under the Ministry of Tourism and Art.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, I would also like to touch on the issue of violence as a deterrent to increasing the number of tourist arrivals. That is common sense. Both the right and left are in agreement on this issue. All of us must condemn violence, whether it is in the PF, MMD, Mwanya party or the general public, because a country that is violent cannot attract tourists. Like somebody said earlier, with the presence of information communication technologies (ICTs), anything that goes on the internet spreads.

Sir, in tourism, we have what we call travel advisors.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister had been debating well until she referred to me as somebody. Is she in order to refer to me as somebody when my proper designation is hon. Member of Parliament, representing the people of Mazabuka Central Constituency?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If, in fact, the hon. Minister was making reference to you. To that extent, she may have been out of order, but if she was not, then she was in order.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that the issue of violence must be condemned by all of us, including me, not just because I am the Minister of Tourism and Art, but because of the fact that I am a Zambian, mother and human being. Obviously, we know the impact of violence in a country. If you look at the tourist trend for a country like Egypt, you will be able to tell that although Egypt is dependent on tourism, when there was political instability in that country, tourists stopped going there. The economy almost collapsed. Therefore, we need peace in this country if we are to attract tourists. I would like to use this opportunity to appeal to those that are charged with the responsibility of maintaining law and order in Zambia to follow the advice of His Excellency the President to enforce the law in order to protect our citizens and assets.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, on the issue of the Foreign Service and the ministry changing Permanent Secretaries (PS) even after the UNWTO Conference, even Zimbabwe changed its PS, in case you did not know. It changed its PS when he went to Parliament and made a statement that the partner, Zambia, was like a lame duck in the preparations for the UNWTO. Obviously, it was that statement that made the President remove him from the ministry. Therefore, I think that changes are sometimes effected for good reasons. They thought we were a lame duck, but I am sure we are not that lame.

Mr Chairperson, in an effort to get the best brains for the job, some changes are necessary, especially when it comes to officials because you are looking for the best candidates with the right qualifications in tourism. Like you have stated, tourism is a technical and professional subject but, sometimes, people think that anybody can do tourism-related jobs. Even in the big hotels, there are some managers who know nothing about tourism. That is why we have come up with the Hotel Managers Council in our budget so that qualified people are employed and the standards in the hotels improve.

Sir, even in the Government, there is a need to continuously look for people with the right qualifications. Once you have qualified people, you will find that there is stability in institutions. Since our ministry is fairly new, there were a bit of movements. Some of the qualified people in the ministry were poached by other ministries. Some of the people have not returned to the ministry. So, we are a very thin ministry. As a result, there is a lot of work that we need to do, including work related to some of the submissions that you have made which are very valid.

Lastly, Mr, Chairperson, most of the things that have been said are correct. However, some may not be correct because of a lack of information on the part of the speakers. I think that one of the issues which have been articulated concerning access to information is very important. I believe that our people can only invest in tourism if they have the right information. People do not know that the ministry has a website. Let me also appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament to, please, show interest in investment promotions for tourism.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to resources, the Act gave us leeway to come up with a fund and we have put money that fund. The Tourism Levy that is going to be collected will be going into that fund that will be used to promote tourism by way of training and supporting projects, especially medium and small projects.

Sir, we are going to decentralise the functions to the district. We will work through the councils so that all the cultural dances you are talking about and other activities are conducted by the councils. It is not ministry, here in Lusaka, that should be doing all these things, but the hon. Members of Parliament, councillors and chiefs who, through their representatives, are members of the council. However, we do not want to make our ministry too big because it will create a drain on the Treasury. We already have offices in the councils since we have adopted the Decentralisation Policy. We just have to give the councils the resources so that they employ the right people to carry out all the activities related to arts and crafts, and many others that are carried out in Lusaka. That way, we shall preserve our heritage and build our tourism industry.

Mr Chairperson, let me thank the hon. Members, once again. I know that many hon. Members would have liked to debate, but if they have any other ideas, they can, please, bring them forward. We want to use this sector to encourage business, job creation and so on and so forth. So, we want to increase the number of people employed in this sector. I am sure we can do it by using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). That is a source of revenue. The CDF can be a source of funding for tourism activities just like the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), Youth Development Fund, Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ) and the Tourism Fund can be used for tourism activities and enterprises. So, all these give investment opportunities for the people out there.

 Sir, let me use this opportunity to inform Zambians that there is potential in the tourism sector for them to make money and employ themselves. You can even set up a massage parlour and massage the hon. Members of Parliament when they are stressed.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: That is a business. Fashion and beauty are all businesses.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Massage?

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Yes, that is a business.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 68/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/03 – (Ministry of Tourism and Art – Tourism Development Department – K38,921,760).

 Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1110, Activity 002 – Lusaka, Eastern and Central Regional/Provincial Inspection and Quality Control – K100,148, Activity 003  – Lusaka, Eastern and Central Provincial Development Co-ordination  – K64,440, Activity 004 – Lusaka, Eastern and Central Regional/Provincial Office Administration – K150,000, Activity 013 – Provincial Tourism Development Programme – K150,000 and Activity 016 – Provincial Tourism Investment – K100,000. Do the figures on Activity 013 – Provincial Tourism Development Programme – K150,000, and 016 – Provincial Tourism Investment – K100,000, include Lusaka, Eastern and Central provinces which have already been given something?

The Deputy Minister of Tourism and Art (Mr Evans): Mr Chairperson, Programme 1110, Activity 002 – Lusaka, Eastern and Central Regional/Provincial Inspection and Quality Control – K100,148 is required for Lusaka, Eastern and Central provinces inspection and revenue collection for all accommodation facilities, restaurants and casinos. The increase is due to the increased number of tourism enterprises in Lusaka, Eastern and Central provinces.

Activity 003 – Lusaka, Eastern and Central Provincial Development Co-ordination – K64,440 is required for Lusaka, Eastern and Central regional offices to attend the Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committees and District Development Co-ordinating Committee Meetings in the provinces of Lusaka, Eastern and Central. The committees meet six times in each province. The provision has reduced due to the need to add more resources to priority activities such as product development.

Activity 004 – Lusaka, Eastern and Central Regional/Provincial Office Administration – K150,000, is required to facilitate the smooth operations of Lusaka, Eastern and Central region offices. The reduction is as a result of the removal of purchase of furniture components.

Activity 013 – Provincial Tourism Development Programme – K150,000 is meant to facilitate the establishment and operation of a provisional office in the Eastern Province. Activity 016 – Provincial Tourism Investment – K100,000 is meant for facilitating investment promotion for activities identified in Activity 005 – Tourism Products Identification and Development – K350,000. The provision is meant to package the areas that are available for investment in the region and categorise them for distribution to possible investors. The provision has increased in order to adequately prepare promotional materials.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is Hon. Mwaliteta and Hon. Kampyongo in order to portray that they are experts in budgeting and confuse my dear brother …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … by telling him how to answer questions on the Floor of this House when they are not officers in the ministry under discussion? That is why we are having problems. Are they in order, Sir?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The ruling is that the Chairperson was under the impression that they were consulting each other, which is allowed.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyanda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1161, Activity 004 – Southern and Western Regional/Provincial Development Co-ordinator – K72,120. Why has there been a reduction from K187,466 to K72,120? I also seek clarification on Activity 005 – Southern and Western Region/Provincial Office Administration – K150,000, why is it that there was no allocation for this year, but there is an allocation of K150,000 for next year? On Activity 025 – Provincial Tourism Investment Promotion – K150,000, there was an allocation of K20,175, but it has shot up to K150,000 next year. What is it that you want to promote?

Mr Evans: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1161, Activity 004 – Southern and Western Region/Provincial Development Co-ordinator – K72,120, is required for Southern and Western Provincial Development Co-ordination Committee (PDCC) and District Development Co-ordination Committee (DDCC) operational expenses. The allocation for this activity is under Activity – 001 and the allocation is for regional and provincial administration. The reduction is due to the prioritisation of activities in the region. Activity 005 – Southern and Western Regional/Provincial Office Administration – K150,000 is required to facilitate the South/West Region Office. Activity 025 – Provincial Tourism Investment Promotion – K150,000, is meant to facilitate investment promotion with the Southern and Western provinces, especially for the implementation of the Greater Livingstone Tourism Area Action Plan in an effort to foster investment. Resources at the ministry headquarters will complement this activity.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I am on …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order which concerns me, since I am a farmer.

Sir, is the hon. Ministers of Agriculture and Livestock and the Government in order to keep quiet and not come to this House to clarify an issue that Hon. Namugala had raised in a question? She said that President Hakainde had indicated that fertiliser in Saudi Arabia was selling at USD334 per tonne at the time when we ordered it, that the Government paid USD388 per tonne and that if other costs were considered, we might end up paying more.

Mr Chairperson, are they in order not to come to this House to clarify their position so that I can go and explain to the people whether we are going to pay more for fertiliser instead of threatening to sue?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The very serious and urgent ruling is that you put that as a question of an urgent nature so that the Government can equally address all the important issues you are raising.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1179, Activity 012 – Product Marketing ZAWA – nil and Programme 1264, Activity 017 – Procurement of Goods and Equipment – nil. Why is it that these activities have not been funded?

Mr Evans: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1179, Activity 012 – Product Marketing ZAWA – nil, has been realigned to Unit 01 – Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 1004, Grants to this Institution’s Capital Projects. Programme 1264, Activity 017 – Procurement of Goods and Equipment – nil, is meant to facilitate Activity 2056 under Programme 1012 – Infrastructure Development. The Provision is meant for the construction and rehabilitation of Mwandi and Mafungushi cultural villages. The activity has been placed under the Department of Arts and Culture.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1204, Activity 005 – Transboundary Tourism Programme Activities (KAZA, NYIKA etc) – K920,000, Activity 007  – Tourism Industry Skills Development – K100,000, Activity 008  – Development of Eco Tourism Strategy – K50,000 and Programme 1179, Activity 013 – Support to Community Based Tourism – K2,550,000. Can the hon. Minister explain why there is no activity that is relevant to research? Secondly, why has Activity 007 – Industrial Skills Development dropped from K400,000 to K100,000 when this is critical to tourism development? Further, can the drop in Activity 013 from K4,263,908 to K2,550,000 be explained.

Mr Evans: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1204, Activity 005 – Transboundary Tourism Programme Activities (KAZA, NYIKA etc) – K920,000 is required to facilitate the co-ordination and hosting of meetings for KAZA, enhancement of the treaty development process for NYIKA, implementation components of partner country activities and development of memorandum of understanding for the TFCA and this provision is the same. Activity 007 – Tourism Industry Skills Development – K100,000 is required for the up-scaling and re-skilling of lecturers at HTT, appraisal and review of the human resource skills in the sector and conducting of skills training of the industry and support services personnel such as those from the Zambia Police Force, Immigration Department, Customs Department, RTSA and taxi drivers. The reduction in this provision is attributed to the adequate resource allocation. Activity 008 – K50,000, is required to initiate the development of the Ecotourism Strategic Paper.

Programme 1179, Activity 013 – Support to Community Based Tourism – K2,550,000 is required to support various community-based tourism activities in various regions. The reduction is due to limited resources.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 68/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/04 – (Ministry of Tourism and Art – Arts and Culture Department – K21,726,406).

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I have two observations on Programme 1005.  The first one is that on Activity 107 – Grants to Crafts Women and Men, in 2013, the allocation was K100,000 but, for 2014, there is nothing. On Activity 108 – Grants to Folk Artists, Dance Groups and New Talents, in 2014, there is no allocation. The rest of the allocations are as follows:

Cultural Village    Allocation (ZWK) 

 Kabwe 144,100

Maramba 220,000

Kapata  220,000

Kasama  156,000

Solwezi-Kifubwa  166,000

Kabwata  156,000

Mwandi  120,000

Why has Mwandi Cultural Village got the smallest amount?

Mr Evans: Mr Chairperson, Activity 107 – Grants to Crafts Women and Men has been re-aligned to Activity 707 – Grants for Establishment of Artists and Artisans/New Talent. On Activity 108 – Grants to Folk Artists, Dance Groups and New Talents, the funds were required to build capacity and improve service delivery by arts and culture production, but the activity has been re-aligned to Activity 707– Grants for Establishment of Artists and Artisans/New Talent. On the Maramba Cultural Village, the funds are required to cater for monthly funding to Maramba Cultural Village in Livingstone to meet operational costs. On Kapata Cultural Village, the funds are required to cater for monthly funding to Kapata Cultural Village in Chipata to meet operational costs.

The Deputy Chairperson: The question is: Why is Mwandi Cultural Village getting less than the other cultural villages?

Mr Evans: Mr Speaker, this is in conformity with the new activity codes. The funds are required to cater for monthly funding to the Mwandi Cultural Village to meet operational costs.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 416 – Construction of Permanent Structure at Ceremony Venues – Nil. This year, the allocation was K500,000 and next year, there is nothing. Why is it so, given the importance of permanent structures at traditional ceremonies in particular?

Mr Evans: Mr Chairperson, this activity has been discontinued to enable the ministry to address the issue of ownership of these theatres with the aim of considering partnerships with both the community and the private sector. The Government will also allow for assessment of the structural integrity.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1005, Activity 707 – Grants for Establishment for Artistes and Artisans/New Talent – K5,303,000 and Programme 1012, Activity 700 – Support to Other Cultural and Theater Houses – K2,000,000. What is the difference between these two programmes?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the allocation for Activity 707, Grants for Establishment for Artistes and Artisans/New Talent – K5,303,000, is money that is meant to support artistes. That is an issue that you, hon. Members of Parliament, should talk about when you go to your constituencies. We want to promote arts and culture in our districts. One of the issues that you have been complaining about is that some people have good talent, but they have no source of revenue. We did that in Livingstone and found that we can only promote artistes that can end up like Mampi who has employed a manager. She is marketing Zambia through her music. That is what that money is meant for. So, this money is for various arts and crafts and, everything to do with arts and culture.

Sir, the K2 million allocation to Activity 700 – Support to other Cultural and Theater Houses – K2,000,000 is to specifically deal with infrastructure support. You will see that there is a list of support that is being given to different theatre houses and all sorts of infrastructure that support the promotion of arts and culture. We deliberately put a figure for other theaters that are not listed. You will find that Kabwata and Mwandi cultural villages are there because all these are popular theater houses. There are other theatre houses that are not listed and they do not know where to go to for funding. Sometimes, the communities fail to pay for the maintenance of a door that is broken. At least, if people go to the commission, they will be able to get support.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 68/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, you will note that the next Vote that is due for consideration is Vote 31, but we have received some information, which is of a technical nature. Therefore, we shall move to Vote 26, Ministry of Information and Broadcasting.

 VOTE 26 – (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting – K89,142,879).

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Kapeya): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, you have always been very specific in your guidance that this House should strictly follow what is on the Order Paper. Is the Government in order to vary the Order Paper without the order lapsing? If it was a Private Member’s Motion, …

Mr Muntanga: It would have lapsed.

Mr Mwiimbu: … it would have lapsed and be brought back on another day. Is it procedural for us to just say that there …

Mr Nkombo: There is a technical problem.

Mr Mwiimbu: … is a technical problem. So, let us go to another Vote without the Order Paper being amended?

The Deputy Chairperson: The ruling is that we do not need an amendment to the Order Paper because we are dealing with an item that is already on the Order Paper.

Mr Mwewa: Hear, hear!

Long live the Chair.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the 2014 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Please, proceed.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, let me start by congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance on the steady, strong and decisive leadership that he has provided in the fiscal policy development that is synonymous with the PF Government.

Mr Chairperson, the theme of this year’s Budget, which is, “Moving Forward to Consolidate Growth and Social Justice in Peace and Unity”, represents a significant and important direction for us. Besides consolidating economic growth and social justice, we should always endeavour to maintain and cherish the peace and unity that we have enjoyed as a sovereign unitary nation since Independence.

Sir, my ministry has the mandate to effectively provide news and information, interpret Government policies and facilitate the development of the media sector for a well-informed citizenry. In order to fulfil this mandate, my ministry has a comprehensive policy framework which guides the formulation of programmes and projects. Information remains a cross-cutting issue. As such, it supports all developmental activities that are undertaken by other sectors of the economy. My ministry continues to play a critical role of providing information to the public on Government activities and developmental programmes and projects. The ministry has been allocated a total of K89.1 million out of which K13.1 million is for personal emoluments. K21 million is for the establishment of provincial broadcasting stations. K11.3 million is for public media support, leaving a balance of K44.4 million for other programmes.

Mr Chairperson, access to information is vital for the functioning of a modern representative democracy such as ours. Therefore, my ministry, in consultation with the Ministry of Justice, is finalising the Access to Information Bill before it is brought to Parliament for enactment.

Mr Chairperson, as part of the Media Reforms that this Government has embarked on, the ministry operationalised the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) in 2013. In addition, the nominees for the board of the IBA have been identified and the names will soon be submitted to the Cabinet for approval after venting. Furthermore, the Cabinet approved the names of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board and these will soon be submitted to Parliament for ratification. Hitherto, over eighty broadcasting institutions have been issued with licences. In order to continue with the implementation of these reforms, an allocation of K9.7 million has been set aside in the 2014 Budget for the operations of the IBA.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is on course with regard to the establishment of provincial broadcasting stations which will keep citizens in rural areas abreast with all the developments that are taking place in their provinces but, most importantly, they will promote local production to showcase the country’s rich heritage as well as allow for regional news and information exchanges. This project involves the construction of studios and provision of equipment in eight provincial centres and rehabilitation of the Kitwe Studios. The project will be implemented in phases, starting with two studios in Choma and Solwezi, in 2013, and progressively adding new stations in other provinces. An allocation of K21.6 million has been provided in the 2014 Budget for this project. In addition, the ministry will continue to expand radio coverage of rural areas by ensuring that the ZNBC Radio reaches all parts of the country. In this regard, K1.3 million has been set aside for the installation of rural frequency modulation (FM) transmitters.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has offices in all the provincial centres as well as in most districts throughout the country. These offices are under the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS). However, ZANIS is facing serious challenges of office accommodation, a lack of equipment and transport. My ministry has set aside some funds in the 2014 Budget to deal with these challenges. K3.9 million has been set aside for the construction of ZANIS offices as information centres, K3.2 million for the procurement of equipment and inputs and K1.8 million for mobile video vans.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy to report that in September, this year, my ministry launched newspapers in the local language. This is one of the initiatives the ministry is undertaking to widen media access and operations to include rural areas. In order to fully operationalise this programme, in 2014, the Government will continue with the establishment of printing presses in provincial centres, starting with Chipata and Kasama. In this regard, K2.4 million has been set aside to implement this activity.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is committed to ensuring smooth migration from analogue to digital broadcasting by 2015, as required by the International Telecommunication Union (ITU). To this effect, my ministry has finalised the Digital Migration Policy which will soon be submitted to the Cabinet for approval. To expedite the implementation of the project, the Cabinet has approved the technical standards and project proposal.

Further, Sir, the Cabinet mandated the Ministry of Finance to source funds for the project, considering that the amount required was beyond the ceiling allocated to my ministry. In this regard, my ministry has allocated K1.1 million for the operations of the Task Force on Digital Migration and K2.7 million for branding, advertising and public awareness in the 2014 Budget. In line with the Cabinet decision, the financing of this project will be undertaken outside the ministry’s budget ceiling, as the Cabinet mandated the Ministry of Finance to source the necessary funds to implement the project.

Sir, in an effort to strengthen the operations of the public media, support to the media has focused on revamping operations through the capitalisation and operation support to allow for modernisation in their operations. In this regard, K1.7 million has been set aside in the 2014 Budget for public media support.

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, my ministry successfully introduced the hologram in Zambia to be affixed on authentic audio and video works in order to fight piracy. To facilitate this process, SI No. 100 of 2013 was issued. The implementation of the hologram will not only contribute to improved revenue collection, but also enhance the benefits to artistes. The ministry projects to raise K4.5 million from the sale of the hologram.
 
Mr Chairperson, in my conclusion, I would like to assure the hon. Members of this House that with the support of the officers in the ministry, I will ensure that the key programmes in the 2014 Budget are implemented efficiently and effectively, and that we deliver on our commitments. I, therefore, urge the hon. Members of this House to support my ministry’s budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting.

Sir, I would like to start my debate by reminding the hon. Minister about the point of order I raised on the Floor of this House relating to the operation of the IBA. In response to that point of order, among the issues the Hon. Mr Speaker addressed, was that the power to grant licences for broadcasting lies with the hon. Minister and that he was also given power by the President to do certain things under the Act.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to challenge the hon. Minister to tell me, this House and the nation under what section of the law he derived the power to issue broadcasting licences and under what authority the President gave him power to constitute a committee after the enactment of this piece of legislation.

Mr Chairperson, Section 5 of the IBA Act states that the IBA shall not receive instructions only from any person or authority in this country. I would like to know from the hon. Minister under what authority he derives the power to grant licences for broadcasting when he does not have this authority.

Secondly, Sir, I would like to know under what authority the Government made a pronouncement that Radio Phoenix and QFM had been granted licences and later on a directive given to cancel the licences, if the law does not allow them to make such pronouncements.

Mr Chairperson, the intent of this piece of legislation was to ensure that the IBA’s power to grant licences was not influenced by any other power in this country. This was the intention of Parliament. If the Government want any influence from outside, they have to come back to this House and make amendments. As the law stands, the hon. Minister or whoever gave him the power, has no power to direct the cancellation of any licence when it has been issued.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to bring to the attention of this House and the nation the issue of the purported powers of the hon. Minister and his officials in the ministry to appoint officers in various parastatal organisations that fall under their jurisdiction. The hon. Minister must realise that The Zambia Daily Mail and Times of Zambia are limited companies established under the Companies Act. In view of this, they are supposed to comply with the law. If an officer is found wanting in any of the two institutions, it is incumbent upon the board to discipline that officer or make replacements.

Mr Chairperson, we have noted, with concern, that the ministry has been firing Managing Directors or Editors of these parastatal institutions ultra vires the provisions of the Companies Act and the Articles that regulate the parastatal companies. I recall that the colleagues on your right and us used to be very emphatic that when they came into power, they would ensure that the rule of law prevailed and they would operate under the laws of the country, but what we are seeing at the moment is that there is anarchy.

Mr Mwanza: They are worse.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, if they do not like a particular person, that person is got rid of without following the procedures. We have seen situations where Managing Editors are appointed through patronage so that they follow a certain agenda. These are public institutions. We, the taxpayers, are the ones who fund these institutions because they are public institutions. Therefore, they should not be seen to be abused by anybody in this country.

Sir, I recall that when our colleagues were campaigning, they assured the people of this country that when they came into power, they would not interfere with the operations of parastatal organisations. They promised to privatise The Zambia Daily Mail and Times of Zambia. Now, it would appear that these newspaper companies have become sweet and, therefore, have to be retained. They have withdrawn the aspersions they cast on my colleagues on my left. They used to say that the MMD abused the public media, but the abuse is still there. Recently, we have noticed, with concern, that the public media has been fueling the feud in the PF.

Mr Mwanza: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: Fortunately, we are enjoying the conflicts in the PF.

Mr Mwaliteta: Question.

Mr Nkombo: It is like watching the Muppet Show.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we thought that the Government would be gallant enough to ensure that Zambians are given the right to information, and to correct information. This reminds me of what used to happen under Hitler’s Regime where Joseph Goebbels used to unleash information for the benefit of the Führer‎. That is not what we want. This is not the era where you suppress the truth to the detriment of all of us.

Mr Chairperson, we recall that the PF used to tell us that when they came into power, they would ensure that the ZNBC was not influenced in any way, pertaining to coverage and news content. However, we have noted, with concern, that there is biasness and there are malicious falsehoods that are being portrayed. We should not forget the power of the pen and the media. If we do not allow the media to operate independently, we shall find ourselves in situations similar to that of Rwanda. We have noted, from the machete and panga wielding, that the media is biased.

Mr Mwanza: Totally.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is totally biased. It does not want to give us the correct information. As a result of the bias of the media, there are speculations about the number of people who died as a result of the fracas in Chelston. There is evidence circulating in the media that more than one person died.

Mr Lungu: Question.

Mr Mwiimbu: My learned friend is saying, “Question.” That is suppressing information.

Mr Mushanga: Which one? There are two there.

Mr Mwiimbu: One of them is my brother in-law and the other one is my learned friend.

Mr Sikazwe: Question.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, my plea is that the media should be left to inform us. Let us be given the correct information. Then, we will be able to decipher whether what we are being given is in our interest or not. As leaders in this country, if we are given the correct information, we shall be able to advise our electorate, but this is not done.

Mr Chairperson, what is happening now is that if, for example, I am a Deputy Minister in that ministry, wherever I go to campaign or visit my constituency, there is a crew from the ZNBC to cover me. However, our colleagues in the Opposition, even those who are not from the royal family on your right, are never covered.

Mr Musukwa: Royal family.

Mr Mwiimbu: Why should that be? We are all taxpayers. We are making an appeal, ba pongoshi …

Mr Kapeya: Question.

Mr Nkombo: Iyee!

The Deputy Chairperson: Meaning what?

Mr Mwiimbu: He is my brother in-law, Mr Chairperson.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … to do the correct thing for the sake of the people of this country. Allow the media to operate independently for the sake of all of us.

Mr Pande: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If I want to go to the constituency and I need media coverage, allow the media to cover me. If they do not cover me, I will be here again in 2016 and will be that side. However, if you cover me, you may find faults in my constituency. Do not allow a situation where a PS becomes a policy maker in your ministry, because you are the one who is accountable to us in this House and no other person.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, I would like to start by thanking the hon. Minister for the policy statement. It is generally said that information is power. There is a reason for saying so. That is why information, which is supposed to come to people, must be factual and truthful. If someone has no information, they are powerless.

Sir, I have a lot of expectations from the hon. Minister because of his background. Therefore, I do not expect him to fall in the trap of what we are seeing happening in the media.

Mr Chairperson, I will particularly talk about the public media. Currently, it is only the Members of this House who refer to the ZNBC Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail as public media. The rest of the people refer to them as Government media houses. So, we have to correct that notion of their being referred to as media houses for the Government. We have to ensure that they are referred to as public media houses.

Mr Chairperson, pronouncements have been made on the freedom of the media, particularly the pubic media. However, what is pertaining is different from the pronouncements that are being made. That is where I expect the hon. Minister to do his best. I will come back to this issue later.

Sir, when the hon. Minister comes to respond, I would like him to tell us why there has been a delay in appointing the board for the ZNBC. We would like to see the board in place as soon as possible because the delay is misconstrued. You are giving the impression that you still want to continue controlling that institution.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the IBA Board, we would like the hon. Minister to select professionals that will assist the Director-General and not just some cadres, as appeasement, who will end up giving the Director-General problems. We want you to appoint people who will add value to the institution.

Sir, as regards the freedom of the media, which I said is not obtaining, there are a number of examples that can be given. When the ZNBC are reporting on Parliament, they will show one side of the House and only a flash of the left side of the House. They will only show one person on the left and the rest will be on the right side. Another example is His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time on Friday. If there is a question, which seems to be against the Government, it will not be featured on the ZNBC Television.
 
Sir, when we were debating the President’s Speech delivered on the Official Opening of Parliament, I observed that for almost a week, when the hon. Members on your left were debating, there was almost no public media coverage. I challenge anybody to go and check the proceedings of the House for that period. How many of the public media houses reported what was said on the left? They only started reporting when the Government started responding. That is not freedom of the media.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to make these corrections if we have to achieve real freedom of the media in this country, particularly the public media. The interference could be there. That is why the chief executive officers of the media houses are scared. The first thing to do is protect the tenure of office of the officers. We do not want to have a situation where they are threatened with dismissal. For example, the former PS for the ministry gave instructions for certain people in the PF not to be covered because that was the practice. We believe that he was fired because this involved the PF. What would have happened if the instructions involved people from the Opposition? We should have confidence in the public media. The personnel in the public media must have integrity emanating from the way they report.

Sir, as we debate and support the budget for the hon. Minister, we need to see these changes so that the public media is what it is supposed to be. There is too much coverage of us, the politicians. Journalists have so much dependency on politicians for news. For a change, we need to see a lot of news in the media on the Zambian population who are the owners of the newspapers and ZNBC. That way, they will truly be considered as public media.

Mr Chairperson, why should the news always be on politicians? If journalists have no news stories, they go to the politicians. They should go out and do investigative reporting. They should not always depend on politicians. That is why only particular politicians are covered and not others. This trend has to be stopped if, indeed, we have to have a free media in this country. Free media is for the benefit of everybody, whether in the Opposition or Ruling Party. As is always said, today, you are on the right side but, in 2016, you will be on the left side.

Mr Mwaliteta: No, we will remain here.

Laughter

Mr Pande: Yes, we allow wishful thinking.

Laughter

Mr Pande: So, Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister’s legacy should be transformation of the media.

Sir, I have heard from the media houses that the Government has given the media the freedom to report and that journalists are used to practising self censorship. I do not believe that there is self censorship in the media. Some of them are former colleagues and professionals. So, I have interacted with them and I know what is going on. I am saying what I am saying from an informed position, and not mere speculation. We need a free media in this country.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about the introduction of rural television stations. That is very good. However, we would like to see localised material, language or personnel in the rural television stations. I believe each province has enough qualified people who can manage the television stations. So, we would like the local people to be employed at the rural television stations.

Sir, there are other challenges that ZANIS is faced with in rural areas apart from the challenges that the hon. Minister indicated. Other than transport, accommodation and other resources that you have budgeted for in 2014, you should also consider providing fuel allowances. ZANIS can have a vehicle, but they receive K1,000 per year as money for fuel. How can they operate? Hon. Minister, as you budget for ZANIS, make sure that all this is taken into account. Apart from providing a vehicle, there should also be enough resources for fuel.

Mr Chairperson, the local newspapers that you intend to introduce are a plus to the hon. Minister.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: However, I hope that the local newspapers will be distributed on time. We do not want to see a situation where the newspapers come out on time, but only reach the reader after months. By the time the news reaches the reader, it is stale.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Tsopano.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about newspapers like Tsopano, Ntanda, Ngoma, Liseli and Imbila.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the discrimination by the media in relation to news coverage. When there is a by-election in a particular area, one would think the PF is the only political party that filed in nominations. It is as if other political parties are not participating in that by-election. The ZNBC will only cover the Ruling Party. What should happen is that the national broadcaster should have one camera specifically for the Head of State so that it is readily available when it is needed. The other cameras should be assigned to other people. If, for example, a member of the Opposition was the first one to get to a place, the cameraman should not be recalled to go and cover the Minister. That is not freedom of the media.

Hon. Government Member: Protocol.

Laughter

Mr Pande: There you are. My nephew is saying protocol. There is no protocol in news coverage. News is news regardless of whether it is coming from a villager who has no status in society. He also has a right to be covered by the public media.

Mr Chairperson, I hope my good friend, Hon. Mwansa Kapeya, whose first name, when combined with mine, becomes lethal – It becomes …

Mr Kapeya:  Mwansa Kabinga.

Mr Pande: … Mwansa Kabinga – takes these issues into consideration. We want to see change in the ZNBC, Zambia Daily Mail and Times of Zambia. Some people no longer buy the Zambia Daily Mail, and yet the Managing Director, Mr Anthony Mukwita, is a professional. However, because of the hand behind, that man is being made to look unprofessional. I am sorry to mention his name, but it is necessary that I do so. The Zambia Daily Mail is not what it is supposed to be. It must change, and so must the Times of Zambia and ZNBC. We want news that covers everybody. Like I said, I have been monitoring the way the public media covers different people and I will continue to do so. Next time, I will come with the actual statistics and dates.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to debate the budget for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting which the people of Lupososhi are in support of. I have a few issues to raise for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency.

Sir, much has been said about the bias in news coverage, but I will talk about it from a different perspective. News coverage is biased towards the urban and peri-urban areas. Most of the time, we hear more about issues that are taking place in the urban and peri-urban areas, but very little about the rural areas where I come from. This is an issue that needs to be addressed by the ministry so that we can have all-inclusive news coverage for the people of Zambia. When there is news on the rural areas, it is either about witchcraft or somebody who has been killed over nshima. There is very little news about the developmental projects that are taking place in the rural areas.

Sir, the Zambia Daily Mail, Times of Zambia and ZNBC are a mouthpiece of the Government, and not a political party. Therefore, developmental issues that are taking place in all parts of this country must be brought to the attention of the Zambian people. It is because of the biasof news coverage that we have certain provinces crying foul that they are not getting any development. If there was balanced news coverage, people in Luwingu District, for instance, would know what is taking place in Solwezi, and the people of Lupososhi Constituency would be able to know what is taking place in Livingstone. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to ensure that this is addressed sooner rather than later, and with the seriousness it deserves.

Mr Chairperson, we need to come up with a communication strategy that will bring about countrywide dissemination of information on the development that is brought by the Government of the day. If this communication strategy fails, our pronouncements, as a Government, will be perceived as mere rhetoric. We want to see a situation where the ZBNC deliberately goes to Lupososhi to see how the Kalomboshi Bridge is being constructed and bring to the fore the fact that it is a Government-funded project. They need to cover areas such as Mufumbwe and broadcast the events that are taking place there so that the Zambian people can know what is happening in other parts of the country. This communication strategy must be developed because the ZBNC, Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail are mouthpieces of the Government of the day.

Sir, radio and television signals are another area that needs urgent attention. Since the ZNBC is a public broadcaster, we want the public, which includes the people of Chifunabuli and Nalolo, to be part and parcel of what is happening.

Mr Chairperson, it has been two months since Luwingu District lost the ZNBC radio reception. It is very sad and the people there even question whether I, as Member of Parliament, even know where the radio station is located in Lusaka because they do not hear me on the radio. Luwingu has been using short and medium-wave transmission, and that is not helping. Luwingu District has a special place in the heart of the PF in the sense that it is the district where the PF was born. Therefore, it deserves something to serve as a reminder for its hard work which resulted in the PF ascending to power.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of equipment was referred to by the previous speakers. However, I need to commend ZANIS for the job it is doing under very difficult conditions. ZANIS is closer to the people than the ZNBC and the two national newspapers. If there is any institution that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting needs to pay attention to, it is ZANIS. ZANIS has presence in almost every district. That puts them in a much better position to cover the rural areas. Therefore, equipping this office will help in the dissemination of information.

Sir, the ZANIS vehicle for Luwingu District was brought to Lusaka for repair almost one year ago and has not been taken back to Luwingu since. Therefore, everyday, the man that drives this vehicle wakes up in the morning, goes for work, seats in the office and gets paid at the end of the month. This department needs to be equipped with cameras and vehicles.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting referred to the problem of piracy. If this vice is curbed, we can raise a lot of revenue for the Treasury. Therefore, this matter must be handled with the seriousness it deserves. The hon. Minister said that he has attached a lot of importance to addressing this situation. This will enable the country raise money through taxes and also help the artistes to make money because they have families to support. If we allow a situation whereby artistes cannot earn a living from their work, we will be advancing poverty in this country.

Mr Chairperson, with those very few words, I thank you.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I want to start by saying that the cost of broadcasting information must not surpass the cost of the project being covered. The money we are giving this ministry is just too much because the work in this ministry is not central to our development agenda. I am going to demonstrate this. The hon. Minister is talking about reviving newspapers in the local language. This is one Zambia, one nation. Let us speak one language. Why should I read the Ntanda Newspaper in Tonga and words like ‘mulibuti’ and so on and so forth? We should not allow this. We are going backwards …

Mr Kapeya interjected.

Mr Hamududu: Our people are getting educated. We are becoming one and one language will unite us. Let us not go backwards.

Mr Mwaliteta interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I hope that this is the first and last time I will be reminding you not to do that.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, let us not start dreaming of things that will just waste money. In this Budget (holding up the Yellow Book), agriculture has received only 7.2 per cent of the total Budget. The majority of our people depend on agriculture for their livelihood. Therefore, we should save money and allocate it to development programmes and employment creation and not experiments. What are the provincial television stations for? We should just improve the ZNBC signal instead. That should be enough to televise to the whole country. In my village and in most parts of the country, people can watch the ZNBC Television. Therefore, its signal should just be improved. Let us not experiment. I think the hon. Minister of Finance must tell the other hon. Ministers to stop experimenting with new things that do not add value to this country.

Mr Chairperson, let me also comment on the issue that was raised by my Monze counterpart, Hon. Mwiimbu. The existence of two public newspapers is unnecessary. When the PF were on this side, they promised that they would private the newspaper companies. If the Government wants a newspaper, it should, at least, remain with one.

Sir, sometimes, the headlines in the Zambia Daily Mail and Times of Zambia are exactly the same. Therefore, we are being forced to spend twice for the same stories. The Government should not use taxpayers’ money to make us pay for this duplicity and propaganda. We should sell one newspaper company because we do not need both of them.

Mr Chairperson, more money has been budgeted for the support of the dissemination of information compared to what has been budgeted for the developmental challenges that people are facing. The private media has grown over the years and is doing better than the public media in terms of coverage. When we are debating here, the Government censors the young journalists who are covering the proceedings. As such, news coverage is lopsided. In view of this, taxpayers’ money should not be spent on public media institutions. They should just be sold.

Sir, the growth of the media is part of the democratisation process. I went to a village in Monze at the weekend to see one old man who is a farmer. I was impressed with how he knew what was happening in Lusaka. I asked him how he got the information and he said that it was through a private radio station in Monze and online publications like the Lusaka Times and Zambian Watchdog.

Mr Nkombo: The mighty Watchdog.

Mr Hamududu: Due to advancements in ICTs, everything is now laid bare. So, our colleagues across should not think that they are the only ones who are going to transmit information through the public media. The world is now open. Even if the Government blocks certain websites through the Zambia Information and Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA), people will still access the sites via satellite. ZICTA has told the Government that it cannot close down the Zambian Watchdog because it is in the air.

Mr Kapeya interjected.

Mr Hamududu: You have failed. You cannot close it.

Sir, there are other means of getting information apart from the Zambian Watchdog. Information is now readily available through ICTs. I want to repeat that we should not spend money on establishing local language newspapers and provincial television stations. We need the money to deal with poverty in places like Mpika. That is my biggest appeal on the issue of public media institutions.

Sir, I would like to end my contribution before 1255 hours. The other issue I am concerned about is in regard to the young journalists. I am very impressed with the young people in the media. They are doing a lot but, as leaders, we must appreciate their work. One of the things we can do is provide training for them.

Mr Chairperson, some of the programmes that the Government wants to embark upon, such as the establishment of local provincial television stations, should be left to the young entrepreneurs. We should allow them to open local radio stations and newspapers companies. Some of them work for people who exploit them. This is an area where they can create jobs. So, we should spend money on training young journalists. We have seen that most of the young journalists are into general reporting. There is a need for them to specialise because it is good for their career development and job prospects.

Sir, the world is now looking for young and sharp journalists and we must train them and export them to other countries. Let them go and earn money out there. We should let them develop their careers instead of keeping them here doing general reporting. So, let us invest in our youths. Instead of the Government spending money on all these experiments, I would rather we trained the young people who have offered themselves to work in the media because they are doing a fantastic job despite earning peanuts. When they complain, they are fired and replaced with another journalist from the street because there a are many graduates on the street.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Yes, this is happening. When the young reporters try to talk to their bosses, they are fired and another one is employed immediately. So, we can only protect them by training them and giving them facilities to open media outlets and make money for themselves.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, before moving to the ministry under discussion, we debated the Vote for the Ministry of Tourism and Art, which is an economic ministry. We have given the Ministry of Tourism and Art K97 million, but we are giving this ministry K89 million just to disseminate propaganda and the Government is saying that there is not enough money in our Treasury. We must clean up this thing (lifting the Yellow Book). This is what is bringing about poverty. This thing is very big. Can we quickly drop some of the expenditure lines for the Zambia Daily Mail and the experiments the Government wants to undertake and channel the money towards developmental activities.

Sir, we have enough money in our Treasury, but each ministry is dreaming of doing so many things. Bringing in new items is not working hard. Let us just do what we can for our country. I think the ZNBC, ZANIS and one public newspaper is enough. There are other sources of information for the public. Today, information from hon. Ministers is easily available through the private media. What I am saying right now can easily be found on the internet just after a few seconds. Therefore, why should people wait until tomorrow to read the same things from the newspapers? Can we, please, save money and take it where it matters. Let us put our money where our mouths are. No one can stand up and justify the poverty our people are currently facing.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity given to me to debate on behalf of the people of Solwezi West Constituency. From the outset, I would like to thank my brother, Hon. Mwansa Kapeya, for ensuring that the country is aware of what is happening. However, I want to raise the following issues which, I think, are of concern …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

___________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

___________

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 19th November, 2013.