DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 19th November, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

CHANGES TO COMPOSITION OF COMMITTEES

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order Number 132, some changes to the composition of some of the Committees have been made following the appointment of Hon. L. Evans, MP, to a Deputy Ministerial position, and also the nullification of two parliamentary elections as follows: 

(i)    Standing Orders Committee, Mr H. H. Hamududu, MP, to fill the vacancy;

(ii)    Committee on Government Assurances, Mr A. Sichula, MP, has been appointed to replace Hon. L. Evans, MP; and 

(iii)    Committee on Economic Affairs, Energy and Labour, Mr L. C. Bwalya, MP, has been appointed to replace Hon. L. Evans, MP.

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                                                   MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

DISSOLUTION OF KASENENGWA CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND COMMITTEE 
  
  The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Kabanshi): Mr Speaker, following the point of order raised by the Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa Constituency, Hon. Victoria Kalima, on the dissolution of the Kasenengwa Constituency Development Fund Committee (KCDFC), I wish to inform this August House that before the decision was made to dissolve the CDFC, my ministry carried out its own investigations. The findings of the investigation on the concerns which were raised by Their Royal Highnesses Inkhosi Madzimawe and Inkhosi Mishoro, both from Chipata, that members of the Kasenengwa CDFC were either ward or constituency officials from the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) were really true .
  Mr Speaker, the Government recognises that chiefs are key stakeholders in national development. Thus, whenever they express concern on matters relating to development at a local level, my ministry will undertake missions to investigate such matters so that that they are brought to their logical conclusions. The hon. Member of Parliament for Kasenengwa must, in fact, thank The Royal Highnesses for bringing to light the shortcomings in the composition of the CDFC.

  Mr Speaker, following the appeal by The Royal Highnesses for the immediate dissolution of Kasenengwa CDFC, my ministry, on the 21st of October, 2013, dissolved it in order to put in place a new committee.

  Mr Speaker, the irregular appointment of party officials to the Kasenengwa CDFC was contrary to the CDF Guidelines of 2006. This was not right in view of transparency and accountability of public funds. The irregular appointment of political office bearers can have serious implications on the management and utilisation of the CDF. The CDF 2006 Guidelines in Section 2 provide that only councillors including the hon. Member of Parliament, among others, are allowed to sit on the CDFC and not people holding political leadership positions in various political parties.

  Mr Speaker, in view of this, I wish to take this opportunity through this august House to direct all councils to remove any party officials who sits on the CDFCs and submit fresh nominees for appropriate replacements to the ministry.

  Mr Speaker, the ministry has given directives to all the councils that no political party office bearers should sit on the CDFC through the circular letter MLGH/71/6/1 dated 23rd March, 2012.

  I thank you, Sir.

  Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

  Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask points of clarification on the statement which has been issued by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, I am aware that before the CDFC is constituted, it goes through a process of approval, as far as the hon. Minister’s office. I would like to know the role the hon. Minister plays in approving the composition of the CDFC.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, the scrutinisng of the composition of the CDFCs is done at local level and not at the ministry. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister reconcile her statement on what led to the dissolution of the CDFC for Kasenengwa Constituency with the appointing of political party cadres as District Commissioners (DCs) by the Government? Why is there that contradiction?

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I have a problem with that question. You are linking two different subjects. Confine yourself to the statement issue.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: … indeed, there are guidelines which should be followed when constituting a CDFC. Does the hon. Minister care to tell us how many of the nine members of the CDFC which was dissolved in Kasenengwa Constituency were MMD officials, and whether she did not see it prudent to ask the constituency to replace them as opposed to dissolving the entire committee?

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, I dissolved the committee because I needed a fresh one to be put in place. The people who will be involved in the process of coming up with a new committee are the local people and the area hon. Member of Parliament. We are using the correct procedure to put in place the right committee. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the ministry heard the side of the story of Hon. Kalima before dissolving the committee.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, most of the time, I do not communicate directly to the hon. Members of Parliament because they are part of the councils. They are councillors. So, I usually communicate to the hon. Members of Parliament through the councils which fall under my ministry.

Sir, if anything, she was supposed to have visited my office by now to explain the problems which are in her constituency which the chiefs have been complaining about.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if the hon. Minister can give us the names and number of people who were part of the dissolved committee.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, I do not think I can give the names today. The number of people that are supposed to be on the committee is nine.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, …

Ms Kalima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Kalima: Mr Speaker, in her statement, the hon. Minister stated that after her investigations, she found out that there were MMD party officials on the Kasenengwa CDFC. The question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central was: “What are the names of the MMD party officials who were part of the dissolved Kasenengwa CDFC and how many were they?” Is the hon. Minister in order not to answer questions properly? I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: If I have followed the hon. Minister closely and properly, as I am expected to, she indicated that she was not able to supply the names now. I think that is an honest position and most honourable thing to do. If you do not have the information, you say so. You lose nothing by doing that. We have a daily mechanism for filing Questions. Once we get that Question, we will forward it to the hon. Minister and she will supply the information that you require.

May the hon. Member for Monze Central continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to tell us the prudence of her office determining the projects on which the CDF can be spent on, taking into account the fact that this is delaying the projects in many constituencies.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, we are not talking about the projects today. We are talking about the CDFCs. If the hon. Member wants me to answer that question, I think he should put it in writing. It will come to Parliament and I will answer it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, the issue of the CDF is quite critical.

Hon. Government Members: Constituency Development Fund Committee!

Mr Muchima: Sir, can the hon. Minister confirm that chiefs have now become part and parcel of the selection and dissolution processes for the CDFCs?

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, chiefs are part of the governance system in of this country. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Kabanshi: Sir, the chiefs help in coming up with projects in their chiefdoms which are wards. Very soon, we are coming up with Ward Development Committees where these chiefs will have a representative who will be bringing their issues to the councils. Even now, we have a representative from the chiefs on this committee. The chiefs are key stakeholders who should have a say in the projects which are taking place in their chiefdoms.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. It is general practice for members of the Executive to research thoroughly in order gather enough information on an issue so that they can respond properly to follow-up questions which are asked. Currently, the composition of the CDFC includes: area Member of Parliament, two councillors and one chief’s representative. That leaves us with a balance of five people since a committee should have nine members in total. Is the hon. Minister in order not to state how many of the five were actually political party office holders?

Mr Speaker: I agree that whenever points of order of this sort are raised or when ministerial statements are directed to be issued, they must be as comprehensive as the hon. Ministers can possibly make them. There is no doubt about the merits of such an approach because it pre-empts a flurry of questions which might arise by way of clarification. To that extent, your point is taken.

However, I have also stated that to the extent that the hon. Minister does not have the information at hand, as is the case now, there is nothing more that can be done at this juncture to extract that information. If you are inclined, nonetheless, to gather more information from the hon. Minister then, please, do not hesitate to file a question.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the credit for the works that we do with the CDF goes to the hon. Ministers and ultimately the President. The chronology of events in Kasenengwa raised a lot of discomfort for the area hon. Member of Parliament.

Sir, was the hon. Minister fair not to protect the image of the hon. Member of Parliament so that she can continue with her good works? Why did she just quickly rush to dissolve the KCDFC?

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Speaker, it is being made to seem like I wanted to destroy things when I was just trying to rectify the situation. I just want the Kasenengwa CDFC to work properly.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

STREET LIGHTING IN SESHEKE

186.    Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    how many kilometres of road in Sesheke Parliamentary Constituency were earmarked for street lighting;

(b)    when the first phase of the exercise would be completed;

(c)    when the second phase would be completed; and 

(d)    when the whole exercise would be completed;

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Speaker, the kilometres of road in Sesheke Parliamentary Constituency which have been earmarked for street lighting will be determined by the Sesheke District Council. This information concerning the total number of kilometres to be covered has not yet reached the ministry headquarters.

Sir, the first disbursement for street lighting installation was done in 2012. The Sesheke District Council is yet to retire the amount of K200,000 and to provide the ministry with the status quo which will indicate the progress of the works and expected completion time.

Mr Speaker, the commencement of the second phase is dependent on the progress of the Sesheke District Council in terms of completing the works and retiring of the funds disbursed in 2012. The availability of more funds will also determine the commencement of the second phase.

Sir, the completion period of the whole exercise will depend on the work rate of the Sesheke District Council and the availability of funds.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, the distance of road that has been covered is 900 metres and they are supposed to have a contractor on site to add wood to the already completed part. When will the necessary additions be made to the 900 metres of road which has already been constructed?

Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, there were some complications regarding the materials that were bought to be used on the site. The council did not accept the wooden materials which were supposed to be used. It …

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left and the right!

Mr Tembo: … preferred to use steel poles.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, what does the hon. Minister hope to achieve when he releases an amount like K200,000? 

Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, the question is not that clear, but I will still answer it. There are initial funds which are supposed to be released to all the district councils for projects. In the first phase, we released K200,000 to kick-start the works in Sesheke Parliamentary Constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

ELECTRIFICATION OF CHIEF INGWE’S PALACE

187.    Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda) (on behalf of Mr Pande) (Kasempa)) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development when the Government would electrify Chief Ingwe’s Palace in Kasempa District.

The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu): Mr Speaker, the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) plans to conduct feasibility studies in 2014 to determine the scope and cost of electrifying Chief Ingwe’s Palace. It is important to note that the subsequent electrification of the palace will depend on the availability of funds.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF ROAD FROM KALABO TO THE ANGOLAN BORDER

188.    Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, and Communication:

(a)    when the construction of the road from Kalabo to the Angolan border via Sikongo would commence;

(b)    what the name of the contractor working on the road was; and 

(c)    what the duration of the project was.

The Minister of Transport, Works, and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, the construction of Kalabo/Sikongo Road is expected to commence in the second quarter of 2014 after the completion of the procurement process for the contractor.

Sir, the designs for the Kalabo/Sikongo Road have been completed and evaluated by the Road Development Agency (RDA). However, the comments and approval of the designs have not yet been received from the financiers from Kuwait that are required in order for the works to be advertised.

Mr Speaker, there is no contractor working on the road at the moment because the procurement process is still awaiting the approval of the design by the financier. However, the road is passable because the RDA has been carrying out repair works using the Force Account to the damaged sections.

Sir, the anticipated duration of the project is twenty-six calendar months.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, why did the hon. Minister of Finance indicate in the Budget Speech that the construction works on the road in question had begun last year?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the reason the road was talked about in the speech is that during that time, the consultants were on the ground trying to come up with the designs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, does the Government publicise the works when it is thinking of doing them or when it is actually doing the works?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, we say the works have started when there is somebody on the ground doing the job.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, what has caused the delay in executing the projects, taking into account the fact that most of the financing was organised a long time ago?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I have already stated that the designs have been done. We are still waiting for the financiers to give a ‘no objection’ to the designs. It is this waiting process that has caused the delay.

I thank you, Sir.

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 26 – (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting – K89,142,879).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, before we adjourned last Friday, I said that I was in support of the Motion which was on the Floor. I also said that I had reservations as to whether the K89,142,890 would be properly disbursed for its various functions in 2014.  

Mr Chairperson, is the money to be used to sort out the problems associated with television and FM radio signals? I asked some colleagues at Parliament Motel if they are able to watch the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) television channels in Kalabo, Chinsali and Mwandi. They told me that they are able to watch it, but that the people in the outlaying areas are not able to. I think that is the case with Solwezi. The people of the North-Western Province have lagged behind for a long time in terms of improvements in the radio signal which Zambians from other parts of the country have benefitted from. We, in the North-Western Province, listen to Radio South Africa which is called RSA Radio and Angola Radio. We rarely pick the ZNBC Radio 2 or Radio 1. The Ministry of Information and Broadcasting has a very important role to play in informing the public about Government programmes. The President has been on record as having stated that hon. Ministers do not go round the country to explain Government projects to the people. I have in mind the project which is being implemented by this ministry, which is the opening up of television studios in each provincial centre. I am glad that in Solwezi, we will have one.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right! The consultations are too loud. 

Mr Mwanza: Sir, unfortunately, most people do not know that such facilities are being put in place because we just talk about them here in the House. It is important that the hon. Minister finds time to appear on the television or on radio to explain that such programmes are being implemented. Most of the people in Solwezi do not know that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government will finally provide them a television station. 

Sir, however, whilst they welcome that development, the people of the North-Western Province, are worried that maybe, this idea of taking television studios to the provinces has two facets.  The first one is that it is looking at 2016 which is the election year. In view of what has been happening in terms of violence, the people think that the PF may want to use the television station to campaign very hard so that it can win the elections. The second one is that the stations are going to be used to teach people Bemba. This is very worrying.

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, if that is the essence then, definitely, this gesture is not welcome. At one of the Parent Teachers Association meetings in Solwezi, some people said that, “Ichitundu cha kuno cha liafya.” This means that they could not understand the language in Solwezi. They instead want their children to be taught in a language which they understand and, in this case, it is Bemba. I think that is very serious not only to the North-Western Province, but to all the provincial centres. The hon. Minister should ensure that the television station is not used to teach people how to use Bemba. The television station can be used by the local people to discuss the issues affecting them. Currently, the people who have access to television coverage are found along the line of rail, the provincial centres and, to some extent, district centres. 

Sir, I do remember when I was in Mwense many years ago that we never used to listen to Radio 2 or 1. It was impossible. In those years, we were listening to Katanga News. We are still struggling with the same thing almost fifty years after Independence. The hon. Minister needs to ensure that the rural masses are informed about the development strides which the country has taken. They need to know how far the PF Government has gone in its efforts to set up provincial television stations. I am sure that Hon. Kapeya was selected to head the ministry because the media is his area of your specialisation. In my view, I think that he will not disappoint the people of Zambia. He must ensure that the people of the North-Western Province know more about the television station which they will have in their area. I have remembered some of the questions which were raised before we in the Committee of Supply. Is the project going to be advertised only when people are on site? 

Sir, I have information that the area where the television station will be constructed has already been chosen and visited by the people who will carry out the works. However, they have not been able to go back to tell the people what is happening. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure that, as quickly as possible, the people in the North-Western Province are told that there is a television station which is going to be set up in their area. The people should also be told that the station will not be used for the promotion of the use of the Bemba language, but instead to ensure that all the local people know about all the developmental programmes which are taking place in the North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, as an hon. Member who is representing the Opposition, I think we receive very little coverage in the media. Perhaps, the PF Government has directed the media not to cover hon. Opposition Members of Parliament because they do not offer any checks and balances. This is incorrect. If anything, the hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition are very effective and thorough in the presentation of their ideas. We only say credible things because we have nothing to hide. Even though we are in the Opposition, we mean well. Hon. Minister, please, ensure that there is a television signal in Solwezi and the outlaying areas. The people of Solwezi are geared for a lot of development. 

Mr Chairperson, when I was growing up, I never knew that the North-Western Province would develop at the rate at which it is developing today. The Government should ensure that the necessary facilities are available for the development of the North-Western Province. The Government should ensure that there is a television signal at Mukumbi Turnoff, the rest of Solwezi Constituency where Kalubela and Lumwana Mines are as well as at I’kelengi. If it does not do this, it shall be doomed. How can a Government lead its people properly if it is not able to explain its projects to the people? Let me encourage the hon. Minister to go out there and explain what the PF Government is doing. The participation of the people in the North-Western Province in Government projects is very low because they rejected the PF. Things can change …

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Mwanza: … if the hon. Minister ensured that good projects such as the establishment of television stations are explained to the people so that they are able to know what is going on. Let me give a chance to the others to contribute.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I want to add a word of support to the Vote. The Ministry of Information and Broadcasting would have been an important ministry in the lives of all the Zambians if its services were not selectively provided. 

Mr Chairperson, the situation which was described by the previous debater with regard to the signal is similar to the situation which is obtaining in the Western Province. The day will come when these things will be corrected. Sometimes, it is important to be patient. However, because of being patient, you can die without the fruits you want ever having come. 

Mr Chairperson, I do not think we have ever had a Government in place which has been committed to developing this country. Most of the Government’s plans are not bad. What is bad is the failure by the Government to implement or execute the plans. We all like watching television. I do not how long it will take for those in the rural areas to have the opportunity to watch television. I want to request the current Government to really walk the talk. Let it make a difference. When are we going to see that difference? We are becoming impatient because we are not seeing it. Our grandfathers remember the days when they were young when they used to see what we call in my language as bascopo ... 

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Sir, a long time ago, the Government used to take mobile cinemas to the villages and schools. At the school where I was, at Liumba in Kalabo, we used to watch movies through those cinemas. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has talked about the Government’s intention to publish newspapers in local languages. Let that plan not only end up ….

Hon. Opposition Member: Where?

Mr Miyutu: … in this book. 

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, when the local newspaper will be printed, the people of Kalabo will read it. We have to promote our local newspapers like the Liseli newspaper that used to be published in Lozi. This is important because you cannot expect everybody to read in English. I, for one, would say that we want the Liseli newspaper because it is in Lozi.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear! Bwekeshapo.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, when I go to Kalabo, I do not use English to communicate to the people. There, we do not hold meetings in English. We use Lozi. Who do you think will listen to you if you use English there? The people will just look at you, ... 

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: … in surprise. They will wonder why their representative is using English.  

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we want to see the Liseli in Kalabo by January, 2014. The people there are able to read it. I only hope that this Government will not talk about the non-availability of funds by December, 2014, as is the habit. 

Mr Chairperson, the opening up of provincial television stations is a good idea. It is the non-implementation that is bad. As the situation stands now, areas that are just a few metres from the Boma, have no ZNBC signal. Why is this so? 

Sir, in my language, we say, “Byusheka kuwana vili hambunda bichakuka.” 

Mr Muntanga: What is that? 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, this simply means that what you want to find, you cannot find, and that which you have, you do not have it because you have lost it and, therefore, you have nothing.

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the opening up of provincial television stations will not achieve much if the Government does not change the way it does things. Where will that leave us? We would have gained nothing at all. I would have loved to see the current ZNBC signal reach Sikongo, Libonda in Liuwa and Shang’ombo. These areas should be covered. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Solwezi told me that the signal for the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) is able to reach his area. The signal is able to reach the Western Province as well. Can you imagine the distance between Solwezi and South Africa? Why is the ZNBC not able to do this? What is the matter? Why can we not listen to Radio 1 and 2 in Kalabo? It will not help much to build one million stations that are non-functional.  

Sir, only their financial records will indicate that a certain amount of money was spent on the creation of these stations, but meanwhile, the people will not be able to catch them. When will the people of Kalabo watch television? Next year, the country will be celebrating its Golden Jubilee. Will the people of Kalabo join in the celebrations? I do not think so. What will they be celebrating?

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Miyutu: They have no water (clap), no radio (clap), no T.V (clap), no teachers (clap), no classrooms (clap), no clinics (clap) and no medicine (clap). What is there to celebrate? 

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, a day will come when we shall be that side (pointing to the Government side). We shall show them how it is done. We shall not talk, talk and talk. We shall talk less and do more (clap). 

Mr Ng’onga: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we want to benefit …

Mr Mwila: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, my point of order is procedural. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo in order to be clapping in Parliament. I need your serious ruling, Sir. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!{mospagebreak}

The serious ruling is that the hon. Member is not in order. 

You may continue but, please, do not clap. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, in 2003, on my way to Kalabo from Mongu, the boat I was on capsized.  

Mr N. Banda: What happened? 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, everyone who was on that boat cried in their mother-tongues. No one cried in English. 

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, whatever I do, people must know that I am Mbunda. Clapping, for me, means something different. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, just debate. 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, let me now talk about community radio stations. The President recently said  that some community radio stations should not have been given licences. I want to speak for the people of the Western Province. 

Mr Chairperson, in Kalabo, Western Province, there are two radio stations which are operational, Channel Africa and Radio Liseli. Radio Liseli is a community radio station. My request is that instead of blocking the expansion of community radio stations, this Government should strengthen them because they help the people. If these radio stations are not given broadcasting licences, we will definitely go back to zero. We shall have no radio station to listen to. I would not be happy to see some community radio stations having their licences evoked by the Government. 

Sir, being an Opposition Member of Parliament is not easy. Sometimes, people do not even want you to marry. 

Mr Hamudulu: To marry?

Mr Miyutu: Sir, yes. When one is an Opposition Member of Parliament, things are very difficult.

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, it is only at community radio stations where we are able to get space to express the opinions of the people. Not everything that we, as the Opposition, say is personal. Most of the issues we raise on these stations have to do with the community. Yesterday, I almost failed to enter the Office of the District Commissioner (DC). 

Mrs Kawandami: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mrs Kawandami: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to claim that he is failing to marry when in Zambia there are more women than men? I need your serious ruling, Sir. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member will take into account that point of order as he debates. 

You may continue, please. 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, what does it mean when someone tells you that they are taking away your wife so that you can go and operate in Mporokoso? Does it not mean that you should become a bachelor? 

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, basically, that is what it means. 

Sir, as I was saying, yesterday, I failed to enter the Office of the DC because I am an Opposition Member of Parliament (clap).

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

We have already talked about the clapping. 

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: My apologies, Sir. I will do this (folding his arms) in order not to clap. 

The Chairperson: Yes, do that if it will stop you from clapping. 

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, these community radio stations should be encouraged. The Government should give some resources to these stations because they are our playing ground. It is very difficult to enter the ZNBC offices as an Opposition Member of Parliament. 

   Sir, the staff at the ZNBC might have the will, but fail to do the right thing because they fear top Government officials. Thus, they are not able to show the suffering of the people of Kalabo. The Government should not stop granting licences to people to open up community radio stations. In South Africa, there are more than 100 community radio stations. Why can we not have such in this country?

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Kapeya): Mr Chairperson, let me start by thanking the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central for his concerns regarding the many issues affecting the ministry. The hon. Member for Monze Central on Friday 15th November, 2013, wanted to know the authority which my office was using to issue broadcasting licences. According to Hon. Mwiimbu, the Minister of Information and Broadcasting has no authority to issue licences. He also said the hon. Minister has no power to cancel licences for radio stations.

Mr Chairperson, I thought the hon. Member was listening to what I was saying when I presented a ministerial statement on 5th October, 2013, on the issuance of broadcasting licences. I, therefore, encourage the hon. Member to consult the Hansard so that he can get answers to the questions which he raised. He will definitely find that my detailed statement responded to all the concerns which he raised in his debate.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the privatisation of the public media, His Honour the Vice-President told this House that the public media, namely the Zambia Daily Mail and the Times of Zambia would be privatised by selling 35 per cent shares to the public. However, the public media, in its current sorry state with huge debts, does not qualify to be floated on the capital market. It is, therefore, necessary that funds be allocated in the 2014 Budget to help to bring these institutions to standards where they could be run properly.

Mr Chairperson, concerning media bias, it is also my hope and trust that, the media heads themselves have heard the feelings of the Hon. Members of Parliament. I do not wish to interfere with the editorial operations of the public media. I will also not allow my Permanent Secretary and other senior staff in the ministry to interfere with the operations of media institutions which fall under it. These institutions have boards which should look at such issues. As a ministry, we only get involved at policy level.

Mr Chairperson, let me also thank, Hon. Pande for his candid remarks. I want to thank him for supporting the establishment of provincial broadcasting stations and local language newspapers. I would like to tell Hon. Pande that I am not a control freak. My management will not strangle media freedom. That is what we promised as a Government. We will not change in any way. I can also assure the hon. Member that we are going to appoint only qualified people to sit on the ZNBC and Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) boards. May I also state here that, the ZNBC is being run professionally. I even see clips of the United Party for National Development (UPND) rallies being shown on ZNBC television. That is what we want and we will continue to encourage it.

Mr Chairperson, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) should also start holding rallies. We shall make it a point, as a ministry, that they are shown on, the ZNBC television.

Mr Kampyongo: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Sir, it is my profound expectation that the ZNBC will cover all the political players in Zambia equally.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, on issues to do with the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS), I must say the staff has worked tirelessly despite lacking equipment like computers and cameras. As a ministry, we have secured three land cruisers which we have already sent to Mongu, Luapula and Chinsali, for ZANIS operations.

Mr Chairperson, let me thank Hon. Bwalya for praising the introduction of ZANIS News on the ZNBC television. News coverage bias has been mitigated by the introduction of ZANIS News which is beamed on ZNBC television once every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. I must admit that all Zambians have really welcomed the idea of separating ZANIS News from the ZNBC News. As a ministry, we want all the corners of this country to receive information. That is why we are installing transmitters for Radio 1 and 2 in all the districts of the country. So far, we have done so in twenty-five districts. By next year, we will cover the whole country.

Mr Chairperson, I am rather disappointed with Hon. Hamududu’s contribution. I found his remarks that we do not need newspapers in local languages and provincial stations retrogressive. I enjoy listening to his debates. I do not know what happened that particular day.

Mr Chairperson, he contradicted himself by praising community radio stations which, in fact, broadcast in local languages. The hon. Member of Parliament should realise that it is not everyone in Zambia who understands English. Thank you to Hon. Miyutu for emphasising this point. Coming from a rural constituency, Hon. Hamududu should know better than anyone that not everyone in Zambia understands English. Community radio stations have limited frequencies. Thus, we cannot rely on them to inform our people adequately. Through the provincial stations, our people will be well informed so that they can make good decisions. Hon. Hamududu should know that jobs will be created once we come up with the provincial studios. I wish to urge all the hon. Members of Parliament in this august House to support this move. Hon. Mwanza, Member of Parliament for Solwezi West, I wish to thank you for supporting this Vote. I have already said that we will install the ZNBC Radio 1 and 2 transmitters in all the districts of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, by next year, we will be through with the exercise. Provincial studios are important. Hon. Mwanza would like to know the site where the Northern-Western Provincial Television Station will be located. It will be in the Kiabakaka area as you drive towards west of Solwezi. It will be about 7 km west of Solwezi in his Constituency. We have so far worked on 2 km of the road from the main road to the site where we are putting up the station. The location is good. I am sure the hon. Member will appreciate the works we are doing.

Mr Chairperson, I am confused with what Hon. Mwanza said regarding the setting up of provincial studios. He said that it is a campaign gimmick for the PF. What we are putting up are developmental and permanent projects. One day, the PF will go, but the projects will remain operational.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Kanshi mwalishiba ati mu kaya!

Mr Kapeya: Sir, we are doing these projects for our children and their children’s children. Therefore, we are not here to please ourselves or hoodwink the Zambians to vote for us in the 2016 Elections. Please, get us correctly as the PF Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Sir, I was disappointed with the way Hon. Mwanza was talking about tribes. Some of us find it very difficult to talk about tribes. I do not have Bemba friends. I have friends from different tribes such as Tonga and Lozi. Most of my friends are Tongas. So, I find it very difficult to participate in discussions which are premised on tribal lines. So, Hon. Mwanza, please, try to …

Mr Sikazwe: Tone down!

Mr Kapeya: … control yourself. After all, he is married to a Bemba woman. Can you imagine?

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Is that so?

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Hon. Miyutu, I would like to thank you for supporting the Vote and the establishment of local language newspapers. Indeed, the establishment of local language newspapers is a milestone which the PF Government has scored because it knows that most Zambians do not understand English. The second edition of Liseli is already out. I think by Monday next week, you will find it in Kalabo.

Mr Miyutu: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: As I earlier said, Mr Chairperson, we are installing the FM transmitters all over the country. 

With regard to television signals, as you are aware, we are migrating from analogue to digital transmission. Once we are through with this project, every part of the country will have a clear and good television signal.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 26/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 26/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 26/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 26/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 51 – (Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication – K864,138,902).

The Minister of Transport, Works Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to outline the policy direction of the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication for the year 2014.

As the House may be aware, this ministry is charged with the responsibility of facilitating the construction and maintenance of public infrastructure. It is also responsible for promoting the development of the transport and communication sector in order to contribute to the socio-economic development of our country. It is further responsible for the control of Government transport, office equipment and Government printing. It also provides meteorological services.

Sir, part of the priority programmes for my ministry are as outlined in the Speech given to this august House by His Excellency, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, the President of the Republic of Zambia during the Official Opening of the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly. Further, these are in accordance with the priority programmes in the Revised Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP). Therefore, my ministry’s approach is to ensure that the commitments made by His Excellency the President on infrastructure development projects are implemented through budgetary allocations.

Mr Chairperson, before I go on to outlining the priority programmes for 2014, allow me to highlight some of the key achievement, for 2013. In 2013, this House appropriated K539,808,010 for my ministry. The following were some of the achievements of the ministry and its agencies:

(i)    completion of almost all Formula 1 projects;

(ii)    completion of the modernisation of the Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula International Airport in Livingstone;

(iii)    commencement of the implementation of Phase I of the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project, under which 1,500 km of roads is being constructed;

(iv)    commencement of the Pave Zambia 2,000 km Road Project;

(v)    construction of housing units at border posts to ease housing problems for immigration and other personnel in the border posts at Katima Mulilo and Nakonde;

(vi)    commencement of the Lusaka 400 km  (L400)  Road Project;

(vii)    completion of the National Heroes Stadium in Lusaka;

(viii)    construction of One-Stop Border Post at Katima Mulilo and Nakonde Border posts;

(ix)    establishment of eight automatic observing weather stations in the Eastern, Lusaka, Muchinga and Southern provinces;

(x)    commencement of the E-governance Programme which aims at improving Government services to the public and lowering the costs of doing business;

(xi)    starting of the pilot project for the National Addressing System/Post Code;

(xii)    rolling out of the 169 communication towers by the Zambia Information Communication Technology Authority (ZICTA) countrywide in chiefdoms;

(xiii)    procurement of two dredgers for the dredging of canals countrywide;

(xiv)    introduction of 20 per cent local contractor access;

(xv)    improved services offered by the Zambia Postal Services (ZAMPOST);

(xvi)    introduction of a logistics company at ZAMPOST;

(xvii)    commencement of sim card registration; and

(xviii)     revamping of the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL) and Tanzania-Zambia Railways (TAZARA).

Sir, I wish to thank the hon. Members of Parliament for supporting our Budget for 2013 which has enabled my ministry to successfully implement these important programmes and I look forward to the same support for the 2014 proposals.

Sir, let me now focus on the 2014 Budget for the ministry. In 2014, we are proposing to spend K864,138,902. That is an increase of 37.5 per cent from the 2013 Budget due to the massive infrastructure development projects to be embarked on in 2014. 

Mr Chairperson, a good road network is a recipe for sustainable development. It is, therefore, pivotal for fostering trade, economic growth, production and social development. My ministry will, therefore, continue to implement the various road network projects, such as the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project, Pave Zambia 2,000 km Road Project and L400 Road Project, to ensure an improved network. The implementation of the road projects will continue to contribute to job creation as well as enhance local trade and regional integration.

Sir, the Government will fully implement the Pave Zambia 2,000 km Road Project that will see 540 km of the road network covered in 2014. The project is designed to create jobs for the people of Zambia in accordance with our PF Manifesto.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will also facilitate the implementation of the L400 Road Project to upgrade the roads in Lusaka. The L400 Road Project will see the construction and upgrading of 400 km of the road network. These road projects outlined above, will contribute significantly to job creation. About 40,000 jobs will have been created by the year 2014 from this sector alone.

Mr Chairperson, in order to ensure the sustainability of good road conditions, my ministry intends to construct a number of toll gates on selected major roads. As we roll out the road construction, we shall prioritise road safety awareness and sensitisation, as well as implementation through the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA).

Mr Chairperson, my ministry recognises the important role that the aviation sub-sector plays in promoting trade and investment and, in particular, its contribution to the tourism industry. Consequently, the 2014 Budget will seek to support the procurement of radar systems for the Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula and Kenneth Kaunda International airports to ensure safety in air navigation. To enhance access to tourists’ destinations across the country, my ministry will prioritise the rehabilitation and upgrading of aerodromes in selected districts to ensure that we focus on a few projects and achieve results, given the available resources.

Sir, my ministry has initiated measures to establish a national flag carrier. We intend to actively pursue the objective of securing the necessary partnership and equipment required to achieve our desire for a national flag carrier. Already, consultative meetings with selected stakeholders to ensure the establishment of a national flag carrier are being held. My ministry has also accelerated the transformation of the Department of Civil Aviation into an authority to ensure professionalism.

Sir, the water transport sub-sector has received very limited attention in the past despite its huge potential for the transportation of both goods and people. This coming year, we intend to prioritise this sub-sector and develop and manage water infrastructure across the country so as to increase the utilisation of water bodies. The Government intends to procure additional dredging facilities and to distribute the equipment to various major water bodies. This will improve the state and condition of the waterways. Further, my ministry will procure large water vessels for Lakes Bangweulu and Tanganyika to ease water transportation on these large lakes. In addition, programmes to improve handling facilities at the Port of Mpulungu and other harbours will be implemented. It is my firm belief that the development of the Mpulungu Port will contribute to increased trade with the Great Lakes Region. The Government will also construct and rehabilitate a number of marine infrastructure such as landing jetties, quays, passenger shelters and warehouses on a number of harbours across the country.

Mr Chairperson, to ensure the efficient utilisation of water transport across the country, especially on Lakes Bangweulu and Mweru, my ministry will recapitalise the Bangweulu and Mweru Water Transport boards and transform them into commercially viable water transport companies. In this regard, the Government will also purchase passenger and cargo vessels for the Zambezi Waterways and Lakes Tanganyika, Mweru and Bangweulu. In order to bring marine transport services closer to the people, the Government will, in line with the Decentralisation Policy, establish harbour administrations for selected water bodies. This will ensure that the Government monitors the vessel operators to ensure that they comply with safety standards as prescribed in Chapter 466 of the Laws of Zambia. To ensure compliance with this legislation, the Government will procure a number of patrol boats for law enforcement officers. 

Mr Chairperson, the Governments of the Republic of Zambia and Angola will soon sign a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for the development of the canal which connects Shang’ombo District in Zambia to Livungu District in Angola. On the Zambian side, the Government will construct a modern port at Shang’ombo. During the construction and operationalisation phases, a number of jobs will be created for the local people of Shang’ombo.

Mr Chairperson, the Government, in partnership with the Government of the Republic of Tanzania engaged TAZARA to review its corporate strategy aimed at revitalising its operations. In 2014, the Government will accelerate its effort to ensure that the two railway systems improve their efficiency and contribute to the movement of the bulk goods, thereby preserving the road infrastructure. The Government will also commence the rehabilitation and upgrading of the Mulobezi Railway Line. Bearing in mind the huge capital investment requirements in the rail sub-sector, the Government will continue to engage the private sector through the public-private partnership (PPP) initiative to open up the critical rail line corridors of Lobito, Nacala, Benguela and Walvis Bay.

Mr Chairperson, we also have a regional obligation under the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) as a member State to facilitate regional trade and develop transport corridor infrastructure. In this regard, I am happy to inform this august House that the construction of the Kazungula Bridge between Botswana and Zambia will commence in 2014.

Mr Chairperson, information and communication technology (ICT) is an important ingredient in building and facilitating increased productivity and competitiveness. It will always play a key role in achieving sustainable economic growth. My ministry is, therefore, determined to ensure that related infrastructure and services are evenly distributed countrywide, and become more affordable for the majority of the people. To this end, the Government, through ZICTA has implemented a programme to roll out, at least, 169 communication towers across the country in the coming year. As a way of introducing efficiency and reducing costs in the delivery of public services to our people, my ministry will introduce and implement a secure electronic e-Government platform which will enable citizens to electronically transact with the Government. This programme will be rolled out across Government departments and agencies.

Mr Chairperson, the availability of accurate weather information is key for agriculture development, infrastructure maintenance and development as well as the alertness of the citizenry of Zambia. Thus, the ministry will, in 2014, continue investing in the procurement of meteorological equipment and the rehabilitation of meteorological stations, including the headquarters. My ministry will also continue to implement awareness and sensitisation programmes across the country. We will also go into researching on how we can be paid for the services that we provide.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of works, my ministry will prioritise the completion of projects that were initiated in 2013. I wish to point out that the Buildings Department is overseeing the construction of new infrastructure in the new provincial centres of Choma in the Southern Province and Chinsali in Muchinga Province. Further, new infrastructure, including schools, health centres, roads, housing and office blocks, will be built in the newly-created districts. I also want to mention that, as a ministry, we have observed that there is a need to strengthen our capacity to supervise and monitor these projects at all levels. Consequently, the Buildings Department will be strengthened and decentralised to district level so as to ensure that it carries out this very important mandate. Additionally, my ministry will develop and implement an infrastructure maintenance policy to ensure that our investments are protected.

Mr Chairperson, the recapitalisation of the Government Printing Department is one of the main programmes that will be implemented in 2014. My vision is to ensure that the Government Printing Department is strengthened to enable it to print the ballot papers for the 2016 General Elections.

Mr Chairperson, we have made progress towards the achievement of this vision through the procurement of state-of-the-art printing equipment. The ministry will also construct a perimeter wall fence and procure closed-circuit television (CCTV) cameras to enhance security for the Government’s printing department. It is my belief that once this department is fully operational, all major printing jobs will be carried out within the borders of our country, resulting into huge savings. These savings will be reinvested into our economy. This will ultimately result in job creation for the Zambian population.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, allow me to call upon all hon. Members to fully support this Vote and ensure that the 2014 budget proposal for my ministry delivered to this House becomes a reality.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to contribute to the Vote on the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, which is a very big ministry. In fact, I think that this ministry is too big and must be split if we are going to have effective service delivery.

Mr Chairperson, in making my contribution, I want to start by bemoaning our failure to empower our local contractors with regard to infrastructure development, especially in the road sector. We have been independent for forty-nine years now, but our roads and major buildings are still be constructed by foreign-owned companies. In fact, as Zambians, we are encouraging capital flight from our country. When you look in the 2014 Budget, you will find that there is K5 billion which will go towards infrastructure development. Almost all of this K5 billion is going to go back to the countries that have given us loans to construct infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, time has come for us, hopefully through the PF-led Government, to empower our people so that when we allocate money to infrastructure development, it will go towards wealth creation and poverty reduction for our people. We need to ensure that our people graduate from being small-scale contractors to major contractors. This is the only way that we can truly reduce poverty. By creating wealth for our people, we are practically fighting poverty. If we do not do that, we are going to continue talking about infrastructure development and poverty will not be reduced because money will not be staying in the country. The money will continue going outside the country to create wealth for the citizens of other countries.

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, we see foreigners, and I am sorry to say this, of different colours in our very rural constituencies developing our roads and even our school infrastructure. It is about time that we saw Zambians building the schools for their children. It is about time that we saw Zambian contractors constructing the road from Isoka to Muyombe. We want to see our people practically move from being impoverished to being rich men and women because their Government has created an enabling environment for them to create wealth. That is the only way that we can truly own our economy and proudly call ourselves leaders of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, let me also comment on the slow implementation of works in most of our constituencies. Road works that are initially planned to finish, for instance, in twenty-four months are taking up to sixty months to complete. Let me also advise our colleagues in the PF that it does not matter who the hon. Member of Parliament is in a particular constituency. Our colleagues in the Ruling Party must perform if they want to be popular. They must perform if our people are going to appreciate them as leaders. 

Mr Chairperson, when the Government abandons a road that is in a constituency that has an hon. Member of Parliament belonging to the Opposition, it is making that hon. Member of Parliament popular because he/she will have something to show that the Government has not done. Therefore, our colleagues must show good leadership by completing the projects, whether they were started by the MMD or not. Whether the area hon. Member of Parliament is MMD or PF, it does not matter. It is the people in those areas that matter. It is the lives of those people which must be improved.

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, we have noted that many of the contractors who were poor performers during the MMD rule are still being given contracts under the PF. What has happened? What has suddenly changed that has made these poor performers to do good works and yet the PF had condemned them in the past? I can only conclude that because our political parties are not funded by the State, these bad contractors have now started funding the PF.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Sir, it seems that it does not matter whether the cost of a road is more expensive for the citizens of Zambia as long as these contractors are financing the PF. I, however, want to sound a word of caution. As long as we are not patriotic and allow foreign- owned companies to finance us, as political parties, they are going to be the ones to decide who becomes our President. These are foreigners with their own interests. Let us be patriotic. It is not about whether or not we win as political parties, but about whether or not the people of Zambia win. 

Mr Chairperson, the people that are financing us must be thoroughly scrutinised because as the saying goes, “He who pays the piper calls the tune.” If political parties are going to be financed by foreigners, we will just be creating wealth for them. This is our money that is just going around. They charge double the price for the road works and then part of the money comes back to us through their funding of the political parties that we head and we think they are doing us a favour. For every dollar they give us, they have made ten dollars. 

Mrs Masebo interjected.

Ms Namugala: Sir, I am hearing my sister passing comments. It is not a secret that political parties are funded mainly by contractors.

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: Sir, it is true. We know that most of the major companies doing business …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me this opportunity to rise reluctantly on a point of order. We are supposed to be a dignified institution. In her debate, the hon. Member is making very serious allegations of what I would probably call institutionalised corruption. Is she, therefore, in order to continue debating in that fashion without laying a single piece of evidence on the Floor of this House?

Mrs Mwamba: Efyo balechita.

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, as the Ministry of Home Affairs, we are keenly interested in this matter and would like to get some evidence from the hon. Member so that we can follow up on the matters she has raised actively.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Well, she is debating policy generally. No specific mention has been made of any particular individual or contractor. The hon. Minister is taking copious notes. I am sure that, at an opportune time, she will respond to what is being said. 

The hon. Member for Mafinga may continue.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, in the interest of our people, we need to be honest. I am merely making a contribution as an elected Member of Parliament for the people of Mafinga. 

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, there is no secret that political parties that are outside Government struggle to survive. However, the moment they go into power, money starts to flow. 

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, I am not talking about a particular political party. I am speaking as a Zambian who has realised that, together, we can deal with this situation.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Sir, who was supporting us when we were in Government? Are we sure that we are strong enough to resist the temptation when they tell us to elect a particular person or guide us, as leaders, to adopt a particular policy? Can we really and truly say no to these people when they give us billions of kwacha through the so-called financing of our political parties? 

Mr Chairperson, what then happens is that when our people are supposed to pay K1billion for a kilometre of road constructed, they pay K3 billion because someone, somewhere through some structure has made the cost of that road more expensive.

Interruptions

Ms Namugala: Sir, we must resist, as leaders, the temptation to be manipulated because this leads to the cost of goods and services to be expensive for our people. It is a fact, Mr Chairperson, that many of the foreigners who are in this country are friends of those in power. If they are competitively getting these contracts, why do they want to befriend the leaders that are in the Government? The answer is simple. They want favours. However, I want to say that let us be patriotic. Through this Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, we can truly fight poverty. We can ensure that this money is in the hands of our people. We can ensure that foreigners start playing a more diminished role in the provision of goods and services. 

Mr Chairperson, with these remarks, I thank you.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to support this Vote on the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. From the outset, I would like to say that as people of Lupososhi, we support the Vote and that …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.
    
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the
Chair]

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that the people of Lupososhi Constituency support the Vote for the Ministry of Transport, Works Supply and Communication. In supporting it, we note that on page 729 of the Yellow Book, on Programme 1142, there is an amount of K14,094,323 that is earmarked for the rehabilitation of the Mansa, Kasama, Solwezi, Chipata and Kasaba Bay airports. This is very good in the sense that it will help in reducing the distances that people cover to reach the tourism sites. Good airports will facilitate movement and enhance the lives of the people that live around those areas.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy that the rehabilitation works at Kasaba Bay Airport have been allocated funding. The Kasaba Bay Airport must be rehabilitated as quickly as possible.

Mr Chairperson, we have been hearing stories that Kasaba Bay Airport would be repaired for a long time. I think that the Zambian people want to put these stories behind so that they can enjoy the fruits that Kasaba Bay can bring.

Mr Chairperson, the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project is another very good project. It is a project that will better the lives of the Zambian people, especially in the rural Zambians. It is good because it is going to open up the rural parts of this country and in so doing, we will see a lot of business flowing into the rural areas. The Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project has a defined completion period. It has deliverables that are well defined within that project and, therefore, implementing it fully will better the lives of the Zambian people.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Last Wednesday, I raised a Motion to urge the Government to hasten the movement of fertiliser to the farmers from the districts. Yesterday, there were near riots in Kalomo because the trucks which were sent last week to the area had not started offloading the fertiliser since the warehouse manager had no sheds. The trucks blocked all the roads leading to town. The people became wild and were short of taking the fertiliser from the trucks. 

Mr Chairperson, I have tried to raise this issue with the hon. Minister. He even writes me notes. In one of them he indicated that he had taken note of my issue and that it had become clear to him that I had allowed myself to be used by people for their political ends. 

Mr Chairperson, I have no qualms with being used for political ends because I am politician. He went on to say: “What wrong have I done to you? How do you know that I am not going to sue Mr Hakainde?”

Sir, he went on to say that he had provided the necessary details in his ministerial statement and was going to provide more information in response to my Motion …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

What is your point of order?

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister in order not to attend to the problems affecting the distribution of fertiliser to the farmers? Is he supposed to remain quiet regarding this real problem? Now they are offloading fertiliser into the classrooms and dining hall at Kalomo High School.

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga: Sir, if you went to Kalomo right now, you would find that happening. There are twenty-two trucks. Is the hon. Minister in order, Mr Chairperson, not to take decisive action that should solve this problem, but instead reduce this subject to a personal level? 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that you immediately raise an urgent question so that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock can also supply an appropriate answer to it.

Please, continue, Hon. Bwalya.    

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project will improve the lives of the Zambians. Failure to implement this project, to borrow a term from the hon. Member for Lukulu, will spell ‘doom’ for us because the people of Zambia are expecting the rural areas to be opened up.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to urge the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication to stick to what is provided for in the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project. Let us work on the roads as stipulated in the plans for the project. Let us not do things which are not part of the plans just because of one or two reasons. Let us stick to our plans so that we can show the Zambian people that we are capable of implementing a project of this magnitude. It is a mammoth project which requires a lot of money. We will not regret implementing the project because the Zambian people will give us credit for having done so. They will give us credit for having brought sanity to the nation.

Mr Chairperson, I am also concerned with the operations of the Rural Roads Unit (RRU). The equipment of the RRU is obsolete. Most of it is non-functional. Therefore, the RRU is not able to attend to the urgent needs of the feeder roads that are dotted around the country. It is time that we equipped this unit. In fact, I want to suggest that if it is possible, let us merge the RRU with the Zambia National Service (ZNS), which is in charge of rural development because if we do not do this, we will continue spending money on the unit which is not able to deliver and help the Zambian people within the shortest possible time. Therefore, I want to urge the hon. Minister to see how best this unit can work in collaboration with the ZNS. We also need to recruit more engineers. The Road Development Agency (RDA) currently is understaffed in terms of engineers. That is the more reason certain projects are not properly supervised and monitored. The worst thing is that the operations of the RDA are not decentralised enough because its offices only end up at provincial headquarters. It is not in the districts where these roads are being constructed. We need to beef up the RDA so that it can perform effectively.

Mr Chairperson, the other aspect that is worrying is the cost of feasibility studies and the time it takes to implement what is recommended in the reports. We have had many feasibility studies. A number of them have been gathering dust and, as it is, when you do a feasibility study this year, after two years, that report becomes irrelevant. Therefore, you have to spend some more money to conduct yet another feasibility study. My appeal is that once a feasibility study is commissioned, and the report is produced, we need to act on it so that that money should not go into the drain. Money should be utilised in the manner that the Zambian people want it to be used.

Mr Chairperson, I heard the hon. Minister talk about the establishment of a national flag carrier. That is a welcome move which is long overdue. I remember talking about this last year. Unfortunately, even if we came up with an airline, the Zambia Air Services Training Institute (ZASTI) is not well equipped enough to train pilots. I do not think we want to see an airline that will be flown by pilots from foreign countries. Hon. Minister, ZASTI must be revamped and given modern equipment for training so that it can train the Zambian pilots who will fly this national flag carrier all over the world. I want to commend the hon. Minister for deciding to come up with a maintenance policy for the Government infrastructure. The lack of maintenance has been a cancer in this country. Governments have come and gone, without anyone paying attention to ensuring that we maintain the existing infrastructure. However, coming up with a policy is one thing and implementing it is yet another issue. We have a lot of beautiful policies which are gathering dust because they are not being implemented. However, a lot of taxpayers’ money is still being spent on developing policies.

   Sir, the Buildings Department should be properly equipped and must have qualified manpower so that they are able to implement this particular policy.

Mr Chairperson, the Government Printers should be financially viable. If properly run, well equipped and accountable, it can create a lot of money for other development ventures in this country. As a member of the PF, I recall that we promised the Zambian people that the ballot papers would be printed within this country. I am glad that the hon. Minister has alluded to the fact that by 2016, the ballot papers will be printed within the country. We must implement this plan. If we do not, it will cost us popularity. So, it is important that we give the implementation of such plans the seriousness that they deserve.

Sir, let me talk about roads again. It is good for the Government to work on roads in Lusaka and the Copperbelt provinces. However, it appears that we are putting tarmacs on the already existing tarmacs. People in urban areas have been seeing these tarmacs since Independence. However, there are areas where people have never seen tarmacs before. I want to urge …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … the hon. Minister to, please, look at the rural areas because this is where these tarmacs are needed. It is the people in rural areas who have been suffering since Independence. It is only right that we give them a chance to also see tarmacs. We have been suffering for a long time. The Luwingu/Nsombo/Chilubi and Luwingu/Samfya roads have never been tarred since the colonial days. So, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to concentrate on rural areas. Once we work on the roads in rural areas, I can assure you, hon. Minister, that the hon. Members from the Opposition will have nothing to talk about. All these people in the Opposition will keep quiet because we will have delivered what the people of rural areas have been looking for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for giving me this opportunity to debate the Vote of a ministry that is being run by my colleague and friend whom I have known since our school days.

Sir, in beginning my discourse, I want to say that I support the Vote. With the amount of K864,138,902, I am quite certain that with support from his staff, the hon. Minister is likely to succeed in implementing the programmes for his ministry.  As I stated, I share some history with Hon. Mukanga. I think it is important that I give him some level of confidence, solace and encouragement that despite the outbursts that he has been getting from his supervisor, …

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: … starting from the ground-breaking ceremony at the airport right through to the Kansenshi Presidential Guest House, he should keep his head high because I know very well that he is an accomplished engineer who knows what he is doing. 

Sir, now, where does the problem reside? I think the problem resides in precisely what the hon. Member of Parliament for Mafinga said that this ministry is huge. Historically, the Ministry of Transport and Communication and the Ministry of Works and Supply were separate ministries. Now, the combination of these two really requires that everybody who is assisting Hon. Mukanga, starting from his two Deputy Ministers, the Permanent Secretary and engineers work very hard in order to achieve the targets which have been set by the PF Government. 

Sir, those of us who know Hon. Mukanga personally wish to urge him not to take to heart the pronouncements which have been made about him by the Head of State. These trying times will pass.

Mr Chairperson, I want to begin my debate by talking about bituminous standard roads. Again, I will take a cue from the hon. Member of Parliament for Mafinga who discussed this matter, although she did not arrive at the point where I would have probably been very excited. She wanted to know the factors which determine the cost of constructing a road. This is because just under two years ago, it was about a K1 billion per kilometre. Now, we have been told that it has escalated to levels around K3 billion plus or minus. I stand to be corrected. The raw materials that we use to make roads, apart from bitumen, are locally procured. These are gravel and crushed stones. Therefore, where is the problem? Why should a bituminous standard road cost so much per kilometre? 

Sir, it will be nice for the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication to, may be, hold a workshop so that he can sensitise hon. Members of Parliament to start appreciating these costs that are associated with the building of roads otherwise, since we, from the UPND have never been in Government, we shall now take as Gospel truth what the hon. Member for Mafinga said that the contractors share their profits with the party in Government to the detriment of our nation. It would be good for the hon. Minister to assist the nation to understand why constructing a bituminous standard road has become expensive these days.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, there are solutions which can be put in place based on the already existing initiatives. The hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development must come out of his mode of wanting to build another refinery which will separate commingled feedstock. The end product of crude oil can sometimes be bitumen. That is if they are going to refine it. I think Hon. Mukanga knows that very well. In that way, we will stop importing bitumen and cut down on costs.

Sir, the ministries must complement each other. Policy synergies must be put in place. The Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development can decide to buy crude oil, which is generally supposed to be cheaper than the commingled feedstock. The residue of crude oil after the refining process is bitumen. That way, we may not need to import bitumen which is a major component in the making of tar. We may just need to import asphalt. That way, money will be saved. Maybe, the contractors will even stop taking Government officials for lunch and even sponsoring their holidays because of the extra money which they make.

Secondly, Sir, the hon. Minister, in his response, should help me to understand why the RDA has been moved to State House. This is the agency where the Chairperson of the board who was the campaign manager for the President is the only board member that exists this far. I want to know how the matrix operates. The awarding of contracts is done from State House and yet the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication who was remotely distanced from the operations of the RDA is admonished whenever there are shoddy works. The RDA does not report to the hon. Minister. It reports to State House. So, why does His Excellency the President when asked to do some ground breaking ballock, my friend, the poor hon. Minister, who was my schoolmate many years ago. Hon. Mukanga was once asked by His Excellency the President: “What are we ground breaking here?”

Mr Chairperson, I think that there is a need for the hon. Minister not to cow down. I know Hon. Mukanga to be one of the very few straightforward and upright human beings.

The Deputy Chairperson: That point has been made. Move on to another point. Let us desist from debating one another.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am in support of the plans to establish a national airline which the hon. Minister talked about. Those plans must be linked to those of the Ministry of Tourism and Art. We have big airlines in this continent like Kenyan and Ethiopian airways that have tentacles that spread far and wide across the globe. It is generally believed that those operations are making loses. We should not just bring in some cowboys to establish an airline which will carry our flag. We should study how the national flag carrier will complement the Ministry of Tourism and Art’s efforts to increase the tourist arrivals in this country. It is possible that while the national carrier may be making losses, the tourism sector could be thriving. That way, the benefits will outweigh the costs for the country.

Sir, the hon. Minister also talked about issues to do with border posts. These are important issues which the hon. Minister needs to seriously look at. In order for the hon. Minister to help his colleague from the Ministry of Tourism and Art, he should try to establish a window which is specifically for tourists at border posts. It is frustrating for a tourist to have to wait to be cleared by immigration authorities at the same window with a man who is carrying bitumen from South Africa with many trucks. These tourists have to stand in the queue to wait for ten trucks to be cleared before they are attended to. Why not come up with a special window specifically for tourists so that they can have an easy passage in and out of the country. That way, they would want to come back to the country again. I believe this is a plan which the hon. Minister can look at because it will not cost much to implement. 

Mr Chairperson, the Republic of Namibia, at the time of the reign of Hon. Sam Nujoma, gave Zambia a piece of land for the creation of a dry port in Walvis Bay. I would like the hon. Minister to consider developing that dry port so that all the customs clearing can be done in Namibia and pressure is reduced on our border points because the trucks would have already been cleared before they enter our country.

Sir, the hon. Minister said that he was happy with the way the 2013 Budget has performed. I believe that this is a matter of self deception on the part of those who wrote the policy statement for him. In Mazabuka, where I come from, the 2013 Budget had allocated funds for the upgrading of 28 km of township roads to bituminous standard. However, to this day, not even one metre has been worked on and yet the hon. Minister says the Budget has performed very well. I will be breathing fire on you next year, Hon. Mukanga, relating to these 28 km of road because I want the work to be done. You cannot just be developing the Copperbelt and Lusaka provinces. Go and work on the roads in Mazabuka.

Mr Chairperson, if it was not for the Zambia Sugar Company Limited, which from time to time pours molasses on the tarmac, a lot of people in the area would be suffering from a disease called pneumoconiosis because of the dust emissions. The Budget has not performed well because the implementation of its programmes has not benefited the people of Mazabuka.

Sir, the Kafue/Mazabuka Road is a death trap. We have been singing about how this road has led to the death of many people. If the hon. Minister can refer to the Hansard for last year, he can discover that I went a little deeper into his skin by asking him whether he wanted one of his relatives to die before he could start fixing that road. We need a diversion starting from Shoprite so that big trucks do not come into Mazabuka. Half the time the trucks lose breaks because of the gradient or the slope which is on the road, for those who are a little bit limited in the queen’s language.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, many of the vehicles which use that road find themselves either at the railway station or inside Shoprite. I think the hon. Minister should take this matter seriously. Even if it may be a capital project, it must still be looked at with a positive attitude. Like the hon. Member for Mafinga once said, if you repair that road, I will have to find new ways to decampaign you because you would have scored a plus. Get on your shoes and go and fix that road.

Mr Chairperson, finally, the Bottom Road has been on the Government’s lips from the day it came into power. That is why Mr Kumar said that this Government is full of rhetoric. If the Bottom Road was worked on, it would automatically have a gearing effect on the tourism activities around the Lake Kariba which runs over a stretch of more than 300 km. By working on the Bottom Road, we would create a place like Monaco in France or Casablanca in Morocco. A lot of benefits would accrue to this country once this road is worked on. 

Sir, I am sure that the hon. Minister has heard what I have said because I have seen him nodding his head. I am sure that there was no abuse in my discourse. I urge him to keep soldiering on and insisting that Cabinet meetings are not held in camera so that he can tell the boss that three ministries in one are too heavy for a single human being to handle. His failure will not be because of a lack of ability, but because he has too much on his plate.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to add the voice of the people of Luena to the proposals in the Budget for the Ministry of Works, Supply, Transport and Communication.

Sir, I would like to begin by talking about the roads. I have heard the hon. Minister’s proposals and in supporting them, I would like to make a couple of comments.

Mr Chairperson, there were some provisions in the 2012/2013 Budget for the construction of roads in Luena but, unfortunately, it was discovered that there was no equipment for the works in the area. The works on the Limulunga/Usha Road have been given to the ZNS which does not have the required equipment to do a proper job. Therefore, what is being done is not up to standard. To make matters worse, it is using the wrong soil. I am not an engineer, but I can tell what wrong soil is. When you drive through that road during the dry season, you will have to cover your head because if you do not, you will look like a ghost. During the rainy season, the road has gullies and big potholes which make vehicles get stuck. When we mentioned that to the engineers there, we were told that there was no equipment to work on the road.

Mr Chairperson, you will recall that we mentioned on the Floor of this House that some of the equipment has been withdrawn from the RRU so that it can be used for the works at the Kasaba Bay Airport. That equipment belongs to the RRU and should not be used for construction works at an airport. I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister to look into this matter. The other problem is that the ZNS does not have the required equipment. The works on the Myulwe/Nangula Road have not yet started. 

Sir, like I stated earlier, they are using wrong soil on the road which they have started working on. When we tell them to get stony soil that can make good gravel, they say they have no equipment to start crushing the stones. That is why they are making the mediocre types of roads. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to ensure that the ministry procures proper road construction equipment so that they do good jobs. After investing a lot of money, it would be a shame to find that two years down the line, a road is no more. 

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about water transport. I urge the hon. Minister to improve water transport in this country. As you know, 40 per cent of Luena gets submerged in water for three quarters of the year. Thus, it becomes very difficult to visit certain areas. Last time, when I went back to my constituency, I visited a place called Nangili. I was asked why I had not visited the area the past few months. I told them that it was difficult to get there. If I used a Scotch cart, it would take me about ten hours from Limulunga to Nangili. Such distances can easily be covered if we had an effective water transport system. While we are on this topic, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to research on whether hovercrafts can be used in swampy areas such as Luena. I am not very conversant with how that technology works, but I still think some research is in order to determine whether it can be used in swampy areas. 

Sir, there is a provision of K7,813,422 for the Shang’ombo Canal. This is a welcome move. I have also seen that the rest of the country has been given only K6.6 million for the rehabilitation of canals and waterways. That made my jaw drop a bit because the money is very little for the works at hand. I, therefore, do know that not much work will be done in my constituency. I hope that this is a starting point and that the next provision will increase so that the water transport in my area can be improved. 

Mr Chairperson, you will also note that the Zambezi River covers the major parts of North-Western and Western provinces. I think it is high time we looked at the issue of building inland bridges on the Zambezi River. Of course, the one at Chirundu, like other similar ones, is an international bridge which connects us to other countries. Within Zambia, there are no bridges on the Zambezi River. For the time being, some measures should be taken to work on the pontoons. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to pay attention to what I am saying.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to suggest that the broken down pontoon that is on the Zambezi River that we use in Liuwa Constituency and Luena Constituency should be rehabilitated so that it becomes operational. It is very cumbersome to always use a canoe. I urge the hon. Minister to look at that issue. It will really alleviate the transport problems in that area. 

Sir, I also welcome the plans to establish a national airline. This is an issue that I have debated passionately on in this House. I smiled when I heard the hon. Minister say that they are going to look into this matter. Of course, I would like to adopt what Hon. Nkombo and Hon. Bwalya said on the national flag carrier as my own debate. A national flag carrier will boost our tourism industry. I am so glad that the Government has listened to our cries. 

Mr Chairperson, on the rehabilitation of airports, I have noticed that the one in Mongu has not been mentioned. I do not know why the Western Province is always left out. Are we not supposed to fly? How do we fly when we have emergencies? I just have to mention that I arrived this morning from Mongu after driving the whole night. If there was an aircraft which used to service the area, I could have been flown to Lusaka because I had to get here on time. 

Laughter

Ms Imenda: Sir, the issue of Mongu being left out all the time should be looked into. We also need to fly. Limulunga will soon be a district and we want the infrastructure there to include an airport. Since they have neglected Mongu, they can start with Limulunga District. We want an airport to be built there. 

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the rehabilitation of the railway lines. I noticed that for the rehabilitation of the Mulobezi Railway Line, there is a small amount that has been allocated. Why are matters to do with the Mulobezi Railway Line neglected even when we discuss the issues about Mulobezi in this House? The money which has been allocated to issues to do with the railway line clearly shows that nothing significant will be done to it. It seems it is business as usual. There are only small amounts for salaries for the existing employees. There is no allocation for the rehabilitation of the infrastructure there. 

Mr Chairperson, I finally want to talk about toll gates. I welcome the introduction of toll gates because it is a good idea. In fact, we have been talking about this issue because fuel levy is not working for Zambia in terms of raising revenue from foreign trucks. Since fuel in Zambia is more expensive, foreign trucks refuel outside. They just pass through our roads causing infrastructural damage without paying anything. Thus, the introduction of toll gates is a good idea. However, I hope that with the coming in of these toll gates, the fuel levy will fall away. Otherwise, it will amount to double taxation for the Zambian people and everybody else.

Mr Chairperson, under the construction of houses for new districts, there is a petite amount of K500,000. Hon. Minister, does it mean that the new districts will have no housing units? I looked through the whole Budget to see if there was another allocation for the construction of houses in the new district. I did not find any allocation. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to add my voice to this important Vote.

Mr Chairperson, road infrastructure is a key to development. A long time ago, the people in the villages wanted to be given money, soap and other commodities but, today the first thing they talk about when you meet them is road infrastructure. The airport is for those who can manage to fly. My area has a lot of potential for tourism. Ikeleng’i houses the source for the Zambezi River which the PF Government has not recognised. The source of the Zambezi is the one which provides the water which goes all the way into Angola and also up to the Victoria Falls. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to urge the hon. Minister to take what I am saying seriously. When concluding, I want the hon. Minister to give categorical answers to the issues that have been raised because they affect all of us. The PF came to power because it promised the Zambian people that it would do better than the MMD. Today, every Zambian is comparing whatever the PF is doing with what the previous Governments did. 

Mr Chairperson, if a gentleman goes to the barber shop to have an English or table cut and is cut half way, people will think that he is mad. 

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, development should be taken to all the provinces and not just to one. All the ten provinces need to be developed.  Developing only one province is a failure.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, the Government should aim to develop at least seven out of ten provinces.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: That is below par.

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, during the campaigns, the voice was very loud and clear. Every villager heard that the PF was going to develop the entire nation. This is the third year in which we are under this Government, but there is nothing worth talking about that has happened.

Mr Nkombo: Zero.

Mr Muchima: Sir, yes, zero, especially in the North-Western Province which contributes to the gross domestic product (GDP) of this country. 

Mr Chairperson, for the hon. Minister to be really appreciated, he should do better than his predecessors. That is when we shall recognise that he is a man. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, the PF may decide not to take development to the North- Western Province because the people there did not vote for it even when the province gives it money. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, it is this province which is the source of water. Therefore, we want some improvement in this area.

Mr Muchima (pointing at the hon. Minister).

Mr Muchima: If you are to be remembered, …

The Deputy Chairperson: You can contribute without too much gesticulation or pointing at somebody.

Mr Simbao: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: … you need to do memorable things.

The Deputy Chairperson: You can contribute without too much gesticulation or pointing at somebody.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, this is a very important ministry which can do strategic things to develop this country. Road infrastructure is a key to development. 

Mr Chairperson, I listened carefully to what the hon. Minster said about borders. In Zambia, Chirundu and Nakonde are not the only borders. I want to tell the hon. Minister to be man enough and open up new borders. Even in the bedroom, you cannot sleep on one side all the time. You should have different sleeping styles.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, he should open up border facilities at Jimbe. In the country which is near Jimbe, there is oil and it is the nearest to the port. In order to leave a legacy, the hon. Minister must open up a border facilities at Jimbe. He should not think that he will remain in the PF forever. How are we going to remember Hon. Mukanga? Through you …

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I have been attentively following the debate of my brother, the hon. Member of Parliament for Ikeleng’i. However, I am getting concerned when he starts telling me to be man enough and not to sleep on one side of the bed. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, is he in order to continue debating in that manner as if he knows the side of the bed where I sleep? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the Chair was equally worried because the hon. Member was almost disclosing his many tactics. 

Continue, Hon. Muchima.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, we need to own the economy of this country. At the moment, we have nothing to be proud of because our economy is in the hands of foreigners. We seem to cherish people who come with briefcases and give us brown envelopes. These people later disappoint us. These are the people that we want to think are our masters. That time is gone. We should look for engineers and people who can add value to our country. He should not just tell me whilst seated here that they are constructing a bridge at Ntumbo or Muchimansofu. He should mention specific areas because, as an hon. Minister, he is supposed to have all the information on his laptop. The technocrats should tell him which bridges and roads require attention. That is the type of information we needed to be sharing in this House. We should avoid bringing cheap politics of discussing about who voted for who.

Mr Chairperson, the Government should not use the country’s money as a political tool since it is collected from different parts of the country. It must be spent on needy areas. The people of Zambia need this Government to do a lot of work in Mwinilunga, Ikeleng’i, Chama and in the Southern Province. When I was the hon. Deputy Minister for the Southern Province under the MMD, … 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: … I did not do things along political lines.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, in our meetings, I told people to forget about their political affiliations. We concentrated on development. That is why we managed to put up the  infrastructure which is there in the Southern Province. They should do better than the MMD did. People are waiting for the development that the PF promised them. They talked loudly about the development they were going to bring to this country in ninety days.

Mr M. H. Malama interjected.

Mr Muchima: Hon. Deputy Minister, pay attention to what I am saying because I am talking about the reality. I worked in Government longer than you. I know what I am talking about. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, I know Government accounting. Thus, I know what I am talking about.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Muchima: Sir, those on your right should stop heckling.  

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member, debate through the Chairperson. 

Mr Muchima: Through you, Sir, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. 

Mr Muchima: … they should know that we want men who can lead us in these offices. We want men who can lead us and not play cheap politics. They should not get revenue from areas where there is money …

Mrs Wina: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Muchima: …because we need this money to go to every …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mrs Wina: Mr Chairperson, I am appalled by the debate on the Floor of this House. Is the hon. Member in order to refer to men alone as if men are the only leaders in this country? 

Mrs Kawandami: Hear, hear!

Mrs Wina: May I, please, have your ruling on this very important matter.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

To the extent that he only referred to men, he was out of order. This is why the Ministry of Gender and Child Development should be involved in sensitisation exercises. 

The hon. Member may continue. 

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. 

Sir, in science, the general term ‘man’ refers to both men and women. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Even in the village, there must be a person to come out …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Member, please, debate without modifying the ruling. 

Mr Muchima: I thank you, Sir. I am much obliged. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to take this House back to the old system of camps. If the PF want to empower people by providing employment, the camps we used to have in villages would work well. We would not need diesel-operated machinery. We would simply mobilise the people and give them hoes. Part of the budget for the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication can be shared among villages in the North-Western Province for this purpose. For instance, instead of hiring the Chinese to work on our roads, we can use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), which can go a long way.  

Mr Chairperson, if those in Government think that the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project will work, then they are dreamers.

Laughter 

 Mr Muchima: Sir, first and foremost, they have not given us the budget for this project. They are just busy talking about 8,000 km. 

Laughter 

Mr Muchima: Sir, the road from Lusaka to Nakonde, a distance of 1,000 plus kilometres, will not take you less than ten years to construct. Right now, they are dreaming of constructing 8,000 km of road network and yet they have not even given us the road map. They have not told us how much is available for this project. 

Sir, when the PF came into office, the President promised that the road from Kaoma to Zambezi via Kabompo would be constructed. This is the third year and we have not seen even a gravelled road. 

Mr Chairperson, the Zhimbe Road in the North-Western Province is a SADC interconnector. It is a shame that, to date, nothing has been done on it. I am glad that the former Minister, Hon. Kapembwa Simbao, travelled on this road and saw the potholes and patches there. 

Sir, the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication has not done anything about this road. Our neighbour, Angola, is doing a lot of works on the road network at the moment. The hon. Minister should ensure work is done on the Zhimbe Road and the border so that we can have cheap petroleum products such as petrol and diesel come into the country. Set up …

Mr Belemu: Shame on whom?

Mr Muchima: Sir, shame on the Government. Do you even need to wonder? The shame is on those who have the reigns now.   
Laughter 

Mr Muchima: Hon. Minister, you have a university degree. You should think better than those who have not gone to school. You should strategise so that you can defeat us again in 2016. At the moment, it is like you are looking at yourself in the mirror and boasting that you are very handsome. Wait for other people to tell you that you are handsome. 

Laughter 

Mr Muchima: Sir, these are issues which you should be looking at. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: We should set up camps and involve the people in the construction of roads whilst the equipment is used for works in the main towns. 

Sir, they have entrusted councils to do certain works in rural areas. There is nothing happening at all. Only the CDF can work, but this Government has locked it up and decided to disburse it from Lusaka. They have decided to take back this money and control it from here. These are issues which will take us backwards. Hon. Minister, you should add value to your ministry. Ask your friends in Cabinet to be like snakes. Snakes renew their lives because they tend to shed off their skins every so often. Come out of your shells and have renewed lives.

Sir, the hon. Minister talked about the need to distribute development evenly. We have not seen this. Ever since you came into power, we have not seen their importance. The Chingola/Solwezi Road is key, but nothing has been done to it. You are talking about the Pave Lusaka 2,000 km Road Project and yet the Chingola/Solwezi Road should have been a priority. 

Sir, I am glad that my colleague, Hon. Bwalya, castigated them for putting a tarmac over a tarmac. There was no need to start mending the Kitwe/Ndola Dual Carriageway. What is your interest there? You were supposed to start opening up the road to Zhimbe. You should critically look at these areas and ask yourselves where the economic value is? One thing you should know is that on this side of the House, we have the agenda to address the issues that you are failing to attend to. This is why people are looking at an alternative Government in 2016 because they have realised that they made a mistake, ... 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Muchima: … and you are apologising every day.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kambwili: Shimya microphone, iwe!

Mr Muchima: Oh! (switching off his microphone).

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. 

Sir, I have been trying to follow the debate by the hon. Member who is debating in the most unusual way today. 

Mr Kambwili: As if he is drunk! 

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, he has decided to personalise his debate, especially in the way he is referring to the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication and to contradict himself. In one breath, he said that he worked very hard in the North-Western Province when he was Deputy Minister.

Mr Muchima: Southern Province!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, in another breath, he said that nothing much has been done in the North-Western Province or rather the Southern Province.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order? 

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, is the hon. Member debating in order to continue to firstly personalise his debate, with reference to the hon. Minister and secondly, contradict himself in a very unusual manner. I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that different Members of Parliament have different styles of debating. Therefore, learn to be patient and to listen to one another. 

The hon. Member may continue. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Kalombo vulye.

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

What did you say?

Mr Muchima: I said thank you, Sir. That is the way to go. 

Mr Chairperson, we have too many problems in this poor nation of ours. We need to bury our differences and focus on the future. What legacy will we leave for our future generations? I said earlier that people have kept on making comparisons. The people are even glorifying us for making the mistakes that we made. When it comes to what is on television, in the construction sector and many other areas, there is only the PF. 

Mr Muntanga: Corruption!

Mr Muchima: It is the PF. Almost everything is the PF. 

Mr Muntanga: Convictions!

Mr Muchima: Ah, no. I do not want to talk about convictions. 

Laughter 

Mr Muchima: Sir, this is the time to realign our way of doing things and be counted. As I said earlier, there is time for proper co-ordination. We are failing to bring our dreams to the table and achieve what we want to achieve. We are waiting for foreigners to come and drive our country forward and yet we are capable of doing so. We are capable men and women. The PF is supposed to do better than we did for this country to move forward. If they concentrate on cheap things, they will make us heroes of tomorrow. They should wake up before 2016 because these are issues to look at. They should think about tomorrow. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I want to support the Vote for the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. I want to adopt the debate by Hon. Namugala as my own. The ministry is too big. I must commend my friend the Minister, Hon. Mukanga. He has the patience to stomach extreme temptations. I noticed that even when he was called chipuba, he smiled.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, that is very good. He should show that he means well. He is not supposed to be blamed for certain things. 

Mr Livune: He is very obedient that one.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, when the RDA which works under State House enters into contracts, the hon. Minister is supposed to know the full details. We will not develop as long as we have one group of people believing they have more access to the President than the hon. Minister responsible for the job. Maintenance for Government infrastructures in this country must be handled by the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. We know that there are so many promises being made by one member of the RDA Board.

Mr Mwanza: Shame.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the hon. Minister should normalise the situation. We are looking forward to the road projects bearing fruit because people everywhere are complaining about roads. I have travelled to most parts of the country. I know that there are problems everywhere. There is that beautiful road in Malambo, but you cannot connect to the Northern Province because we do not have a road which passes through the hills. We need to look into that issue. Your Link Zambia 8000 km Road Project should link the different parts of the country. 

Sir, we are concerned about the state of the Bottom Road. When the Kariba Dam was being built, the Zambian people were promised that their area would be opened up. The people were promised that the Bottom Road was going to be worked on. We are very careful when talking about the Bottom Road because it evokes emotions. People who died there are our relatives and parents. Issues to do with that road should not be taken lightly. There is no compromise when it comes to that.

Sir, the project involved the Zimbabweans and Zambians. Those in Government should cross over and see what has been done on the Zimbabwean side. On the Zimbabwean side, there is a proper road. 

Mr Livune: Up to Binga.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, there is a very good road on the Zimbabwean side. The Bottom Road is supposed to connect the people of the area to other parts of the country. Successive governments have promised to work on the Bottom Road. They are all mere promises. The PF told us that it was going to tar that road. The Revised SNDP talks about just gravelling it.

Mr Nkombo: Sure?

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Mwanza: Bubela.

Mr Muntanga: … and that works on the road by 2016 would only reach Munyumbwe from Siavonga. They are not even talking about the whole Bottom Road. They are only talking about grading it from Siavonga. They are not moving. The company that has gone there has not been carrying out the works. Maybe, it is deliberate. The hon. Minister should look into this matter. Hon. Namugala said that the contractors inflate their prices because they provide some favours to the Ruling Party. I asked, at one time, where all of a sudden, the PF found money to buy a lot of chitenge materials. I think I now know the source.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, it is the contracts. The PF I knew before it formed Government would not have dealt with the Chinese.  Before winning the elections, President Sata promised to ‘sort’ out the Chinese. 

Mr Mwanza: Quiet.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, he is now eating with them at State House.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mpukunya matobo.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I am not saying there is anything wrong with the Chinese. All I want is to see them do good work. The hon. Minister should drive on the Bottom Road from Siavonga. The bridges they are trying to build will not last. In some places, there are no bridges. When you reach Sinazongwe, the road which goes to Siameja and Siampondo is terrible. I drove on that road last week. I could only move at 20 km per hour. If the Government does not work on that road, the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project will not be considered a success.  

Mr Chairperson, they should not do things deceitfully. From Siameja, instead of proceeding to Siampondo, they have cut through the hills to get to Mapatizya. That is a short distance. They just want to deceive people that they are working and also to please Hon. Siamunene.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Ooh!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, Hon. Siamunene should have told …

Mr Livune: Miyanda.

Mr Muntanga: … Hon. Mukanga to give him good roads because he is a Deputy Minister.

Mr Livune: Question.

Mr Nkombo: Wabija munthu uyo.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the road which has been worked on is not the Bottom Road. They cut through the actual Bottom Road to Mapatizya. One can now take twenty minutes to climb the hills since some stones have been removed. We want the hon. Minister to work on a different road. He should work on the road from Siampondo to Kabanga and also from Kanyanga up to Zimba. He should open up that area. The people who left the valley and moved to Njabalombe would benefit greatly from such a move. 

Sir, I thought that the Zambezi River Authority would facilitate the works on the road which goes to Nkandazovu.

Mr Sin’gombe: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the people who stay in Nkandazovu were moved from the valley. The Government should just say it if it does not want to take care of the people there. Why did they not close the confluence of the two rivers in Malambo? They can flood that whole place as you come to Mambwe so as to create something similar to Lake Kariba there. It is the mountains which block the rivers.

Mr Nkombo: You will see what happens.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, without the mountains, the whole of Mambwe would be flooded.

Mr Nkombo: They will die.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, without the hills, the whole of Chipata would be submerged in water. You should see how serious people are when they are talking about the Bottom Road. 

Mr Sing'ombe: Go back to Nkandazovu!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they can connect Nkandazovu to Kalomo. This will boost the agricultural activities in the area. We still have areas where you hardly need the fertilisers which people cry for.

Mr Sichinga interjected.

Mr Muntanga: You should cry if you are a Minister of Agriculture and Livestock or a farmer.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am saying that there are some areas that do not need fertiliser. This includes areas such as Nkandazovu. However, this area needs to be opened up and linked to other places. Road works should not take place in just one area. I am sure everyone knows the area I am talking about.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I have been to all the areas which I am talking about. The hon. Minister would best know how bad the situation is if he used the roads I am referring to and got stuck on them.

Mbesuma Bridge took years to construct and K4.5 billion was spent on heaps of sand.

Mr Nkombo: It was just 10 tonnes!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, K4.5 billion was spent on bringing10 tonnes of sand to Mbesuma. 

Mr Mwaliteta: It was the MMD and not us!

Mr Muntanga: You are behaving the same way. I think you are even worse.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Do not worry about the hecklers. Just debate.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I will take them on.

Laughter

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: No!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am saying that this ministry …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If you want to take on the hecklers, you will not be allowed to continue debating because I am interested in listening to you and not the hecklers. 

You may continue, please.

Mr Muntanga: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The road from Kalomo to Mapatizya should be tarred because there is an amethyst mine there. We should tar this road because it is an economic road. The road from Kalomo should be joined to Itezhi-tezhi in order to open up the game area. These are economic areas. We are not just advising you to work on roads leading to nowhere. 

Sir, I am aware that there is a need to have a road put up between Kawambwa and Luwingu. There are areas of an economic value to this country which must be opened up. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication to repair the buildings that are in a terrible state. In Kalomo, the building for the Ministry of Labour and Social Service is dirty. There is a small office for agriculture-related activities which was built by a contractor which needs to be checked by the officers from the ministry. It should be razed down because it looks terrible.

Sir, I also want to talk about ZAMPOST workers. The officers at ZAMPOST are very rude. They need to be talked to. For example, if one sends money to someone from Lusaka to Monze, an officer from ZAMPOST would simply say, “I do not have money. You can go to Mazabuka to collect the money.” If I am sending someone money, then it means that the person has no money. How can that person go to Mazabuka?

Sir, there was a time I took on one of the officers. I concluded that he was dull because he should have asked his big officers in Ndola to transfer money in the ZAMPOST account in Monze. So, I am appealing to you, hon. Minister, to check on that officer. If you keep such kind of officers, they will tarnish the image of ZAMPOST. They should be disciplined.

The Monze/Nickel Road has already been talked about. It seems the PF Government wants to be praised for works on this road. They should also tar the Pemba/Mapanza, Kalomo/Chikanta, Kalomo/Mapatizya and Zimba/Nyawa/Kazungula roads.

Hon. Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: For your information, hon. Minister, there is a beautiful bridge over Ngwezi from Simuji that leads to nowhere significant. The late Musokotwane put up that beautiful bridge because he had a plan for the area. The Government should open up that area if it seriously wants to link up the different parts of the country.

Sir, let me not spend my time teaching them on how to link the different parts of Zambia. When we, in the Opposition, take over, we know which areas we shall link up. They should not be surprised that I can tell them which roads need to be connected even in the Northern Province.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up the debate on the Vote of my ministry. 

Firstly, I would like to appreciate all the hon. Members who debated this Vote and these are: Hon. Namugala, Hon. Bwalya, Hon. Nkombo, Hon. Imenda, Hon. Muchima and Hon. Muntanga. Some of the issues they have raised are not new to us. We are already looking at ways of how best we can reduce the cost of making a road per kilometre. This issue has been debated  for a long time. It was talked about even under the MMD reign.

Sir, I will let the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, if he is provided with more information, look into the corruption allegations which were made by some of the hon. Members who debated the allocation to my ministry. We should not use this platform to make unsubstantiated allegations.

Sir, in order to support local contractors, the PF Government came up with a policy of giving 20 per cent of the total value of a project to them. This was done to ensure that we build the capacity and skills of the local contractors to enable them to progress from category six to category one. That is the direction we are taking. I cannot say that the local contractors do not give us the results because I know that we have a lot of qualified people who can do good jobs. We are trying to find a way of ensuring that our own Zambians execute most of the projects.

Sir, the Link Zambia 8,000 km Road Project is all about opening up rural areas. Through the project, we shall work on a number of roads. In 2014, we are going to work on the Lusaka/Chirundu Road. Plans are on the cards for us to work on the Bottom Road. Those who are not happy with the direction which we have taken can come to the ministry so that we engage each other and ensure that we move forward properly. The Monze/Niko, Kafue/Mazabuka, Livingstone/Sesheke and Chikankata/Siavonga roads will be worked on. The roads in Livingstone have already been rehabilitated. If the works on the Mapatizya Road are in our budget, then we shall work on.

Sir, in the Western Province, the Livingstone/Sesheke and Kalabo/Sikongo roads are going to be worked on. The Mongu/Kalabo Road is the most expensive project that this country has ever undertaken after Independence. It is a pity that the hon. Members of Parliament from the Western Province cannot recognise what the Government is doing with regard to the Mongu/Kalabo Road. A lot of money has gone into this project. So, how can somebody stand up and say nothing is happening on the Mongu/Kalabo Road?

Sir, in Mongu alone, there is already about 10 km of urban roads being worked on.

Mr Mwaliteta: Tell them!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, why can we not speak the truth so that the country know it? It is important that everybody knows what the truth is. Works on the Katundu/Lukulu Road are on course.

Mr Mwanza: What about Solwezi Central?

Mr Mukanga: Sir, let me also talk about what is happening in the North-Western Province. The Chingola/Solwezi Road will be worked on not because the hon. Members have spoken about it. We already have plans for it.

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, at the moment, periodic maintenance is being undertaken on the Solwezi/Mwinilunga Road. It is a pity that the hon. Member who talked about Jimbe Road is not in the House to listen to my response.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Member: Fya chabe chabe fye!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, the Jimbe, Kasempa/Kaoma, Kasempa Turn Off and Kabompo/Chavuma roads will be worked on. When we say that we have spread the works equitably, we mean just that.

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: Sir, on the Copperbelt, we are working on the dual carriageway as well as the Ndola/Kitwe and Kitwe/Chingola roads. It is a pity that when a lay man looks at a road, he does not know why a tarmac ripped off. That is what happens when the base of a road has collapsed. We are not wasting money, but trying to follow procedure. We are going to do a good job that will stand the test of time.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Mukanga: There is no point of order. I am just telling you the truth.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, just continue with your debate.

Mr Mukanga: Sir, my Ministry, in conjunction with the Ministry of Home Affairs, intends to work on a number of border posts. We have set aside some money for Lukulu, Kapamba, Kapimba, Chipungu, Nsumbu and Mwandi. So, there is a lot that we are trying to do. I think it is important to realise that this Government wants to give a good service to the people of Zambia, who voted it into power. We know that the PF came into power because our friends, whom we took over from, could not perform to the expectations of the people. But we are now in power, so give us time. We are going to perform to the expectations of the people. We intend to roll out programmes that will benefit the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, we shall have a national airline by 2014. However, we need to move cautiously. There is a saying that once beaten twice shy. We do not want to operate the airline the same way Zambia Airways was being run. That is why it has taken a bit long for us to launch a national airline. We will do everything we can to move on. We have a number of engineers in the country who will help us move forward. We will look at ZASTI, the institute that trains pilots, and see how best it can be run. Although hon. Members debated it under this ministry, ZASTI is actually under the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. 

Mr Chairperson, the opening up of aerodromes is for the benefit of the Ministry of Tourism and Art. We want to ensure that we revamp the tourism industry in this country. This morning, we appointed a Civil Aviation Authority Board. This is in an effort to revamp the country’s tourism sector. We want Zambia to become a tourism giant. We do not just want to depend on mining. We want to depend on tourism as well because we have everything it takes to ensure that this nation becomes a giant in the sector. As a Government, we are doing a lot in terms of water transport, and I am sure most of the suggestions that have been given will be taken on board.

Sir, there was a concern that nothing is being done at the Mongu Airport. If you look in the Yellow Book, you will see that K1,144 has been set aside for works on the Mongu Airport. So, we are going to do a lot. All you need to do is support the ministry so that as we plan and come up with policies on the maintenance of buildings and roads and other infrastructure, it will be for the benefit of all of us. It is important that you to support us. We will work with you, and where we need your assistance, we will definitely call upon you.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 51/01 - (Ministry of Transport Works, Supply and Communications – K350,147,872).

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1005, Activity 025 – Mulobezi Rail Line – K1,000,000. In the 2013 Budget, there was K1,000,000 set aside for this activity and K1,000,000 has been set aside in the 2014 Budget. I would like to know what has been done this year and what will be done next year.

Mr Chairperson, may I also have clarification on Programme 1088, Activity 025 – Recruitment and Replacement of Officers – K98,755. The Government told us that there will be no recruitments in 2014. So, what is this allocation for?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1005, Activity 025 – Mulobezi Rail Line – K1,000,000, what used to happen was that, we would give a grant to the Mulobezi Rail Line because it was operating under a concession. However, it is now under ZRL. Thus, the Government will support it through ZRL.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, what about the clarification on Programme 1088, Activity 025 – Recruitment and Replacement of Officers – K98,755?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1088, Activity 025 – Recruitment and Replacement of Officers – K98,755, the money is meant for costs such as the placement of adverts in the newspapers, interviews and the stationery used in the filling of staff vacancies that may arise in 2014.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1005, Activity 025 – Mulobezi Rail Line – K1,000,000. The amount of money that has been spent on this activity is more or less the same amount that has been allocated in next year’s Budget. I am looking forward to seeing the renovation works. Going by what was allocated in 2013, I do not see much being done because this money will be spent on certain traditional activities. Could the hon. Minister clarify what that allocation is for.

Sir, still on Programme 1088, Activity 025 – Recruitment and Replacement of Officers – K98,755, we were told that there will be no recruitments next year. What is this allocation for?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, in Programme 1005, Activity 025 – Mulobezi Rail Line – K1,000,000, this amount was used to pay the concessioner. This time around, our plan for Mulobezi Rail Line is to replace the slippers. We also want to bring in new wagons. Next year, the money will be given to Mulobezi Railway Line through the ZRL. So, there will be a lot of work and the people of Mulobezi will see a difference.

Sir, on Programme 1088, Activity 025 – Recruitment and Replacement of Officers – K98,755, this amount is meant for attending to attrition-related cases. That is to say, when somebody dies, that person has to be replaced.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1005, Activity 014 – Government Inspector of Railways – Nil. Why is there no allocation to this office?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, previously, we used to have an officer attached to the Zambia Railways Limited, but now, since the institution is under the Government, this activity will be handled by the ministry.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1005, Activity 060 – Zambia Railways (Operationalisation of Chipata/Mchinji Railway Line) – Nil. Why is there no money allocated to this activity?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I would like to state that the Mchinji/Chipata Railway Line will be operated by the ZRL. Therefore, that allocation has not been budgeted for as a grant in 2014.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1182, Activity 007 – Transport Logistics – K656,000. What is the reason for the reduction in the amount for this allocation by more than K300,000 from K986,000?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, previously transport officers used Government vehicles. However, that will not be the case next year..

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 51/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 51/02 – (Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication – Civil Aviation Department – K168,583,550).

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1142, Activity 049 – Rehabilitation of Kasaba Bay – K2,000,000. I notice that this year, this activity received a colossal amount of K21,500,000, but its allocation has been drastically reduced to K2 million for 2014. Is this indicative of the fact that works are coming to a successful conclusion? If not, why is there this drastic reduction because we would like to have this programme done as quickly as possible? 

Mr Chairperson, I seek further clarification on the same programme, Activity 061 – Rehabilitation of Solwezi Airport – K1,934,625. An amount of K3,525,000 was allocated this year for the rehabilitation of this airport, but the allocation has been drastically reduced to K1.9 million next year. Why has this been done when there is still a lot of work that needs to be done at this airport?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, the reduction that we are seeing in the allocation for Programme 1142, Activity 049 – Rehabilitation of Kasaba Bay – K2,000,000 is as a result of the fact that most of the works have been done in 2013. Therefore, the allocation for 2014 will just be for the conclusion of the project. 

Under the same programme, Activity 061 – Rehabilitation of Solwezi Airport – K1,934,625 is going to be used to work on the terminal buildings. A lot of work has already been done in terms of the runway and other parts. That is why there is a reduction in the allocation for next year. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, may I have an explanation on page 728, Programme 1003, Activity 043 – Training – K175,000. Why is there a huge reduction from K1,290,000 for 2013 to only K175,000 for next year? Further, what is the reason for the reduction in the figure allocated to Programme 1008, Activity 020 – HIV/AIDS Activities – K18,403 from K94,600 for 2013? 

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, the amount under Programme 1003, Activity 043 – Training –K175,000 is required to enable the department pay for the officers undergoing long-term training to enhance knowledge and skills. The reduction is due to budgetary constraints.

Sir, as for Programme 1008, Activity 020 – HIV/AIDS Activities – K18,403, the amount is required to cater for sensitisation programmes among members of staff on the dangers of HIV/AIDS. The reduction is as a result of some activities being moved to Programme 1008, Activity 019 – HIV & AIDS Programme Management – K270,000.

Thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 729, Programme 1142, Activity 081 – Rehabilitation of Chipata Airport Terminal – K1,144,875. The terminals at Chipata and Kasama airports are new. What exactly is happening at this terminal to warrant such an allocation?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, that provision is meant for the construction of a fire bay so that the planes and infrastructure are safe.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 51/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 51/03 (Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication – Meteorological Department – K13,202,334).

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 115 – Infrastructure Development and Rehabilitation – K1,000,000. Why is there a huge increment in the allocation for this activity from K48,400 in 2013 to K1 million in 2014?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the
Chair]

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, and if I got the hon. Member of Parliament correctly, I think that he was referring to Programme 1012, Activity 115 – Infrastructure Development and Rehabilitation – K1,000,000. The provision is required to construct a library building and procure equipment for it. This will help in establishing a new Climate Research and Development Centre which will help in providing accurate information.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1142, Activity 717 – Rehabilitation of Meteorological Stations – K1,305,169.  Would the hon. Minister care to give me the list of the stations that are supposed to be rehabilitated?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1142, Activity 717 – Rehabilitation of Meteorological Stations – K1,305,169, I do not have the proper list of the infrastructure in question. However, if he wants it, I can make it available to him as soon as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1002, Activity 020 – Labour Day – Nil. This activity has been removed. When I checked for this allocation under Head Office, I noticed that there was a reduction. Why is this Government fond of removing things from the Budget which motivate workers?

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, we will cater for that activity under administration.

I thank you, Sir.    

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 199 – Rehabilitation of Meteorology Stations – Nil. This year, there was an allocation of K2,650,000. There is also Programme 1142, Activity 717 – Rehabilitation of Meteorological Stations – K1,305,169. Are these two different activities or one and the same?
     
Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, Programme 1012, Activity 199 – Rehabilitation of Meteorology Stations – Nil has been shifted to Programme 1142, Activity 717 – Rehabilitation of Meteorological Stations – K1,305,169.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 51/04 – (Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication – Maritime and Inland Waterways Department – K150,445,828).

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1137, Activity 701 – Procurement of Dredgers – K86,950,000. How many dredgers is this money going to purchase?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, the provision is required to procure ten dredger machines for canal rehabilitation and maintenance. 

I thank you, Sir.    

Mr Chisanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1002,  Activity 002 – Africa Public Service Day – Nil, Activity 019 – International Women’s Day – Nil, Activity 020 – Labour Day – Nil, Activity 033 – Regional and International Conferences/Meetings – Nil and Activity 044 – Youth Day Celebrations – Nil. May I know why these important activities have not been allocated funding.

Sir, I also need clarification on Programme 1008, Activity 030 – HIV/AIDS Mitigation - Nil. Why there is no allocation for next year?
    
Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, the allocations for Programme 1002,  Activity 002 – Africa Public Service Day – Nil, Activity 019 –International Women’s Day – Nil, Activity 020 – Labour Day – Nil, Activity 033 – Regional and International Conferences/Meetings – Nil and Activity 044 – Youth Day Celebrations – Nil have been budgeted for under Human Resource and Administration. 

Sir, as for Programme 1008, Activity 030 – HIV/AIDS Mitigation - Nil, the activity has also been budgeted for under Human Resource and Administration. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1005, Activity 053 – ZamPost Boat (Zambezi) – Nil. I notice that this year, there was an allocation of K100,000. However, next year, there is completely nothing. I would like to find out why ZamPost Post Boat (Zambezi) has been neglected and not given anything for next year?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, this ZamPost Boat is in a state of disrepair. We have not made any provision for its operations next year because we need to procure a new one.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 51/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 51/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 51/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 51/07 – (Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication – Buildings Department – K72,015,521).

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1012, Activity 007 – Construction of 20 No. Low cost houses in Kazungula – Nil. There is no provision in the coming year, yet these houses have not been completed. Why is there nothing?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, there is no budget provision for this project in 2014 because the project has been incorporated in the Kazungula Bridge Project. The contract includes building the houses which are currently under construction.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 51/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 51/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 51/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 51/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 34/01 - (Human Rights Commission – Headquarters – K15,743,722).

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the policy statement and justification for the estimates of expenditure for the Human Rights Commission (HRC) for the year 2014.

Mr Chairperson, the HRC’s existence and its independence stems from Article 125 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Its functions are articulated under Section 9 of the Human Rights Commission Act Number 39 of 1996 and these are as follows:

(i)    investigate any human rights violations;

(ii)    investigate any maladministration of justice;

(iii)    propose effective measures to prevent human rights abuse;

(iv)    visit prisons and places of detention or related facilities with a view to assessing and inspecting conditions of the persons held in such places and make recommendations to redress existing problems;

(v)    establish a continuing programme of research, human rights education, information and rehabilitation of victims of human rights abuse to enhance the respect and protection of human rights; and

(vi)     do all such things which are incidental or conducive to the attainment of the functions of the commission.

Mr Chairperson, the commission may, as appropriate, also conduct public hearings at which human rights issues or complaints are considered.

Mr Chairperson, the HRC was allocated a total amount of K13,9559,403 to implement the above-mentioned functions.

Mr Chairperson, in the year 2013, the commission was led by the Chairperson, who was assisted by five Commissioners. However, the commission has continued to operate without a Vice-Chairperson. The commission has also been undergoing an institutional assessment and is currently in the process of finalising its strategic plan. The plan will include commitments made by the PF Government in its manifesto to strengthen the commission. Specifically, this will entail:

(i)    establishing the position of Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson on a full-time basis;

(ii)    empowering the HRC to grant quasi-judicial remedies and orders which are binding to the State;

(iii)    creating liaison channels between the commission and the Office of the Investigator-General;

(iv)    enhancing the capacity of the commission;

(v)    increasing the budgetary allocation to the commission; and 

(vi)    introducing appropriate legislation to achieve the above objectives.

Mr Chairperson, for the year 2014, the commission will continue to attend to complaints brought by the public and undertake the important role of investigating allegations of human rights violations which is an on-going exercise, and the core business for its existence. The commission will also undertake prisons and police cells inspections, an activity that the commission carries out as per its mandate. It will also continue highlighting the many challenges facing the Zambia Police Force and the Zambia Prisons Service with regard to infrastructure development, equipment, welfare of inmates and also the welfare of the prisons and police officers. The inspections are also meant to highlight progress made in addressing these challenges.

Mr Chairperson, in 2014, the commission, among other activities, will also carry out on-the- spot checks of detention facilities with a special focus on juveniles. It will also carry out legal literacy campaigns for children in conflict with the law.

Mr Chairperson, the commission’s sensitisation and human rights education programmes will also continue in the year 2014. Human rights education ensures that people are aware of their fundamental rights so that they can claim them. In particular, for 2014, the commission intends to focus on sensitising the public and other stakeholders on the evils of torture, inhuman, cruel and other degrading forms of treatment or punishment and will also, in the process, garner support for the total elimination of these vices.

Sir, the effort will not only aim at influencing the legislative changes, but will also endeavour to criminalise torture in Zambia and, at the same time, widen the definition of torture to include all of its forms, as explained by various players in the community beyond the limited United Nations (UN) definition. In addition, the commission will continue to advocate for the protection from discrimination of all persons irrespective of their sex, race, tribe, place of origin, marital status, political opinions, colour, creed, or sexual orientation.

Mr Chairperson, the non-discrimination principle should be applicable to all categories of human rights and to all categories of right bearers. Further, in 2014, the commission intends to strengthen its monitoring and evaluation capacity so that programme implementation and impact is adequately tracked. The commission will continue researching on the human rights situation in Zambia and publish the Annual State of Human Rights Report. This report highlights the human rights situation obtaining in the country, intervention measures that have been put in place to mitigate the problems and also assess the country’s adherence to the international human rights standards.

Sir, the HRC’s overall policy for 2014 and beyond is to continue to contribute to the human rights discourse in Zambia. Recognising that human rights work requires concerted effort, the commission will continue to collaborate and network with the Government and other stakeholders at various levels.

Mr Chairperson, I urge this august House to support the 2014 Budget for the HRC.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the Budget for the HRC for the year 2014. 

Sir, this is a very important but impotent institution.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, this particular institution operates like a non-governmental organisation (NGO). The commission lobbies and advocates for the protection of the rights of Zambians. Unfortunately, it can only go that far. I recall that the mover of the Motion and myself have been talking about the need to enhance the status of the HRC. We have been advocating, together with the PF, that the HRC be given the powers to ensure that the recommendations it makes are implemented. Unfortunately, year in and year out, the HRC complains about the poor human rights situation in the country.

Mr Chairperson, we have noted with concern that the Government has always been ignoring the recommendations of the HRC because they are merely suggestions. The one in authority either takes or ignores the recommendations. That is what has been happening, unfortunately.

Sir, together with the PF, we were agitating that the Constitution of Zambia be amended to give teeth to the HRC. Unfortunately, after coming into power, there has been a loud silence on the part of the PF pertaining to this issue. Maybe, it is because of the human rights violations that have taken place within the short period that it has been in power. I hope that those in Government will realise that this particular institution is good for the nation.

Mr Chairperson, we, on your left, have also noted that the HRC has not been tracking certain human rights. Some of the rights which have been ignored include the rights to food and clean water. I thought that the HRC would rise and comment on the submissions of the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, last week, that the people of Monze, Mazabuka, Kalomo and other areas, who have not accessed fertiliser and seed, will be provided for in future. Maybe, because we are a Christian nation, we always believe in the future. However, we should realise that when a person has no food and clean water, he or she cannot enjoy the other rights properly.

Sir, we are concerned that come next year, the people in the areas I have mentioned will lack food security. Even the nation as a whole will be affected by the failure by the Government to provide the requisite fertiliser and inputs. As a result of that failure, the people will have no food and their human rights will be affected. I hoped that the HRC would rise to this occasion. Unfortunately, it has been so silent on this matter.

Mr Chairperson, the HRC is silent regarding what is happening in the PF. I am made to understand that in the PF, pangas and machetes are part of the dressing. 

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, the members of the PF are behaving like those from the Inkata Freedom Party in South Africa who move with machetes and pangas, thus threatening the human rights of ordinary people in this country. Since the HRC is impotent, there is nothing it can say about the situation. The best its commissioners can do is lament like any of us. However, the situation is unfortunate.

Sir, this last weekend, South African entertainers came to perform here but, because of the way the PF were dressed with machetes and pangas, that function could not take place.

Mr Sikazwe: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I like the one who is questioning me. I know that he is a freedom fighter for the independence of wisdom.

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the issues we are raising here are very cardinal. In a situation where there is no peace and where people are living in fear, human rights cannot be enjoyed. Even the human rights of the Leader of Government Business in the House have been under threat in recent times. We have seen him in the papers being threatened when he is the one who is supposed to protect us. This shows that the human rights situation in this country is deteriorating. We are urging those in leadership to ensure that our people continue to enjoy their human rights. I hope they are listening.

Sir, the other issue which I want the Leader of Government Business in the House to respond to is the one pertaining to the rights of homosexuals in this country. I read articles in the international press and from online publications in which the First Lady of the Republic of Zambia told us to stand up and protect the rights of homosexuals. We want the Government to come out very clearly on this matter ... 

Mr Muntanga: No Children.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: … so that we know its position. We want to know whether the Government advocates for the protection of the rights of homosexuals. I am raising this issue because on a number of occasions, the Government has been saying that it can not protect the rights of homosexuals in this country because it is against the law. Those in Government should come out clearly on this matter. We need to know if there has been a change of policy.

Mr Chairperson, I also want the Leader of Government Business in the House to tell us the Government’s position regarding the high prevalence of HIV/AIDS in prisons because it is also a human rights issue. How are the prisoners contracting HIV/AIDS in prisons if they are not doing that which I am not going to say …

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: What do they do?

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, we have heard how HIV/AIDS is contracted in prisons. 

Hon. Opposition Members: How?

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, as a Christian, I will say that there are certain things which are done in prisons which contribute to the spread of HIV/AIDS in prisons. That is the only way I can speak. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Dr Kasonde will say it.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, are we admitting that there is sodomy, homosexuality and lesbianism in our prisons? There is a report which the Government has pertaining to the high prevalence of HIV/AIDS in this country’s prisons. The prevalence in prisons is higher than the national average. How do the prisoners contract HIV/AIDS? We should realise that those brothers and sisters in prison go back to their homes once released and infect their spouses. Should we be burying our heads in the sand and ignore what is happening? The answer is no. We must find a way of handling the situation.

Sir, I have noted with concern that some people have been advocating for weekend imprisonment for road traffic offences in this country and yet there is no space in prisons. We know that if a man is imprisoned for three days, he will be married for all those days and will contract that dreaded disease. When they go back on a Monday to their homes, they will transmit the disease to their wives.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, it will be a violation of the rights of the innocent wives.

Hon. Opposition Member: Eyo nipoint eyo.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I do not condone drunkenness. However, all I am saying is that we must find ways of ensuring that drunken driving is controlled. The other solution is community service. You can punish someone to work at Government facilities such as hospitals. You can let people clean up such facilities rather than exposing them to danger. I hope that all of us can agree that by supporting weekend imprisonment for drunken drivers with all that is happening in our prisons, we will be responsible for condemning our people to danger. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I have noted that the hon. Minister of Health is nodding his head because he knows that we have a serious problem on our hands.

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I am appealing …

Dr Kasonde: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Muntanga: I also saw you.

Laughter 

Dr Kasonde: … is the hon. Member for Monze Central in order to refer to a listening gentleman as one who is nodding in agreement to what he is saying? Is he in order?

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the Chairperson did not see the hon. Minister as he was concentrating, so he is unable to make a ruling.

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, because of the confusion in the PF, we have so many hon. Ministers responsible for the health sector. There are even hon. Ministers in community and motherhood health. Those ones do not cater for fathers. 

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I was not referring to him. I have so much respect for him.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me an opportunity on behalf of Senanga to add my voice to the debate on the allocation to the HRC.

Sir, I cannot overemphasise the importance of the HRC to our nation. Under the PF Government, our human rights are under threat. We have allowed the PF, which used to call for the respect of human rights, to turn against its own words as was stated by Hon. Mwiimbu. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in his speech, towards the end of it, said that the HRC will also ensure that the rights of all the people regardless of their sexual orientation are respected. As he comes to wind up, I would like him to come out clearly and tell us that all forms of sexual orientation will be respected. I think I got him right. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about the conditions in prisons. I happen to have visited the prisons. I requested the prisoners to demonstrate how they slept. I was disappointed to see that they actually sleep like sardines. Some of the inmates there had a message for the Republican President. They said that he had a cell there where he used to stay whenever he was incarcerated which he has since neglected or has never visited. They feel that if the President could remember the conditions there, he would work towards improving the conditions in prisons. 

Mr Chairperson, our prisons are in a pathetic state, especially the central prisons that we visited. I want to, therefore, urge the hon. Minister and those responsible to ensure that human rights are upheld. The HRC has only been allocated a paltry K15,743,722. I think that is not enough. The establishment of the HRC is very thin. It is only here in Lusaka and some provincial headquarters. The operations have not been decentralised to the districts. With this kind of allocation, I do not see the HRC expanding its scope of work. I think we are trying to squeeze the HRC by giving it a small allocation so that it cannot track human rights abuses, especially those perpetrated by the Government. 

Sir, that Government believes in absolute power. One writer says that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Looking at the way the PF members believe in power, you can tell that they are not people who would love to respect the human rights. No wonder, we now have a Head of State who keeps coming up with decrees. We have been wondering when certain decrees will be gazetted into laws so that we can look at them. There was a recent decree that was against the dismissal of workers in the mines. 

Sir, let me now talk about visitations to prisons. Under a Government such as the PF, which believes in absolute power, the same law which was used under the MMD Government is now being abused. Under the MMD, we were able to visit those who were detained and were awaiting trial. Under the PF Government, you cannot visit your detained relative as long as you are an hon. Member of Parliament. They are telling us that they have the power to abuse the rights of those who are incarcerated. They also are abusing the rights of those who are supposed to visit their relatives and give them food. Under the PF Government, you cannot easily visit incarcerated relatives. I was stopped from visiting my relatives who are in prison. Under the same law, during the MMD Government, people could visit the prisons regardless of their status in society.

Mr Chairperson, let me now come to the issue of detaining people or individuals while they are still being investigated. The rights of individuals are being abused because the system that the PF Government has adopted is that of detaining people before investigations begin. In the Livingstone incident, hon. Members of Parliament were detained before investigations were instituted. The hon. Minister of Justice even started pointing fingers at people before the investigators were concluded. We saw Hon. Muntanga, Hon. Nkombo and the others going into prison.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, the investigation was not even conducted before the arrests were made. That is the type of Government we have that believes in absolute power and has no limitations. Under the modern systems of governance, absolute power is discouraged. You must have limitations. 

Sir, we saw the detention of Mr Sinyinda and those who were chanting slogans. Some youths were detained for merely chanting slogans while others were just being identified as members of the Linyungandambo by the PF cadres. The Government failed to investigate that matter properly. That amounts to abuse of human rights. To date, some of the people who were detained over that issue have not been charged. The police are saying that they still carrying out investigations. What type of investigation takes place after you arrest people for committing a particular crime? What are you investigating? The HRC should help us to change the way things are done. We need to have strong personalities at the HRC. Otherwise, at the rate at which we are moving, the situation will get out of control. 

Sir, today, some of the civil society organisations (CSOs) are crying because they delayed in condemning the excesses of the PF. They thought the PF was a baby or something that could be corrected. They also thought that the PF would rule as it had promised. Unfortunately, it has u-turned. Justice delayed is justice denied. Those from the CSOs delayed in correcting the PF because they thought that its members were holy and would do things as they had promised. Now, the people from the CSOs are crying…

Mr Livune: Even regretting.

Mr Mufalali: … and regretting seriously.

Sir, a certain report stated that the searches in prisons are not conducted in a proper manner. According to the report, one glove was being used to check for knives or some instruments on women. As usual, the prison authorities claim that the prisoners tell us lies whenever we visit them. I do not believe so. The best way to search people is through the use of scanners. I think that is the modern way of inspecting people. We should get trained people to check the women.  

Mr Muntanga: What were they checking for?

Mr Mufalali: Sir, they were checking for instruments in the …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not reveal everything to the hon. Member. Continue debating.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the HRC should also check on the violation of workers’ rights. We have seen that under the PF Government, workers rights are not really respected. I realise that at one time, a point of order was raised in this House over information that was picked from a Farmers’ Magazine by Hon. Mwiimbu. The following day, what did we see? We saw a group of people from the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) suspended. The officials who were suspended were accused of having leaked information to the Opposition even when it was clear that he had gotten the information he used to raise the point of order from the Farmers’ Magazine. 

Sir, according to the Farmers’ Magazine, it was clear that the hon. Minister had over stepped his boundaries. Instead of the hon. Minister admitting that he was wrong, he started punishing innocent people. That was not right. We need to build confidence in the people who work for this nation. We should not accuse people anyhow and fire them unnecessarily. It is wrong for people to be fired because of the points of order that came from this House. The workers’ rights should be protected by the HRC. People have to be strong because this Government can fire people anytime out of malice.

Mr Chairperson, the examples of the way this PF Government is abusing workers’ rights are plenty. As a result of a decree, the chief executive of a mining company was made to leave this country. You cannot run a country properly using decrees. Decrees were used by empires and should not be used in this era where we have elected hon. Members or Presidents. We will not accept to be ruled through decrees because we believe we are in a democratic country.

Mr Chairperson, the way reshuffles are made in Government is a cost to the Zambian citizens.

 Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, this is because every time reshuffles are made, money is spent on settling allowances. We cannot have reshuffles every day.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, this indicates that human rights are being abused for those who work for the Government. What about the slapping of a policeman in public?

Mr Nkombo: Shame!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I remember seeing an hon. Minister slapping a policeman in public.

Hon. Opposition Members: Sure. Where?

Mr Mufalali: Sir, in Livingstone.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, all those are cases of human rights abuses which need to be recorded and handled by the HRC. It should deal firmly with hon. Ministers who slap policemen. This is because the poor policeman could not go and report the case anywhere.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, there are people who feel that the rights of homosexuals should be respected and that condoms should be distributed in prisons. On the other hand, there is another group of people which feels that the sexual activities in prisons are not as extreme as has been indicated. We need to reorganise our prison system.  Maybe, some of those who are married could enjoy their conjugal rights during the visits by their wives or husbands.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, there is a need to start changing the structure of our prisons. They were built by whites who wanted to punish the black man. So, that is why those rooms in prisons are so small that someone can suffocate there.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote for the HRC. The HRC needs a lot of help. It stands for what is basic to every human being. Therefore, it is a commission which requires our support. We tend to blame the commission when we think that something has not been done despite our not having given it the necessary power. The money which has been allocated to the commission is not enough. I want to appeal to the commission to quickly identify what sort of human rights should be promoted. 

    Sir, which human rights can we manage to uphold because we are always talking about human rights abuses in this country? For instance, when a thief breaks into somebody’s home, impinging the right to a minimum level of security, and even kills that person. When such a person is arrested and imprisoned, can you say that we are abusing his rights because he is in an overcrowded cell? Can you cry foul that one’s human rights are being abused? Why did that criminal not respect the right to life of the victim, who also had human rights? This is the problem I have with these human rights. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Through whose eyes are you looking at these human rights? 

Sir, the HRC must tell us which human rights should be respected in Zambia. 

Mr Chairperson, some hon. Ministers think that they have more rights than others. They can walk into a police station, hit another person and not get arrested. Other people jump through windows to hit people, but when those people hit back, the culprits cry for their human rights to be respected. Whose rights are you talking about? 

Mr Mwaliteta interjected.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister wants to confront me when he jumped through a police station window so that he could hit Hon. Nkombo. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Continue debating and do not worry about the heckler. 

Mr Muntanga: He has very bad human rights. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, to what extent can we accommodate these human rights? At the moment, we seem to be supporting even what we are not supposed to. The HRC should tell us what is acceptable in Zambia. 

Mr Chairperson, is it human rights for a man to jump on a fellow man and sleep with him?

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, is it a man’s human right to change a fellow man into a woman … 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: … and yet this person has wrong cavities for such activities? Is that a human right?

Sir, even the Bible says that we should not do such unnatural acts. It is a shame. What are we listening to now? Certain cultures come from out there and tell us to endorse these human rights. Those men who jump on fellow men or the women who jump on fellow women have their own human rights. 

Mr Belemu: What rights?

Mr Muntanga: Would you have been born if your mother had married a fellow woman? Would you have been born if your father had married a fellow man? Why do you bring these human rights to Africa? 

  Sir, those in Government have been told that they will not get any money or any other form of aid if they do not agree to support such human rights. Why should they bring rights that are not correct for us? When we say that we have the right to food and that they should help us to produce enough food, they say that we are wasting money, and that subsidies should be taken away. However, they are willing to give us money on condition that we allow men to jump on fellow men. 

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, this Government is under a test because during the campaigns, there were stories that the PF was in support of homosexuality. 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I want to believe that is not. The respect for such rights should not be enshrined in the Constitution. I do not want to hear that it is there in the Constitution. I have enough information that the Government does not want the Constitution to be printed for all Zambians because it wants to fix certain things that are wrong in it.  

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they want to push in Article 60 to allow men to jump on other men. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Why should you allow that?

Hon. Opposition Members: We know you!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If you know them, keep it to yourself. Continue.

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want to state that the human rights debate in Zambia should be handled properly. Certain human rights should be carefully handled. We should proceed in an appropriate manner. What morals are we trying to bring to this country? These human rights we are always talking about …

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for the opportunity. Is Hon. Mwaliteta in order to continue bothering Hon. Evans when the matter under discussion is about men jumping on men? Is he in order to continue troubling Hon. Evans in this House.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that hon. Members are in order to consult each other.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member, continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the HRC has a lot of challenges. Zambia has agreed to certain UN Conventions.

Mr Mwewa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwewa: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. I am trying to find out which one is the head and tail here. Is the hon. Member of Parliament in order not to explain in detail what he meant by a man jumping on a man?

Laughter

Mr Mwewa: I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that his debate is in order because he adequately explained what he meant in his contribution.

May the hon Member, continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! One:zero.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am not in a position to train people in how to become homosexuals. All I am saying is that, I am appealing to the entire HRC to decide that which is good for our culture. What is good for us?

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, even if people have the right to food, it does mean that they should not grow any food. There is no way they can eat other people’s food for free. Is it is a right for you to be lazy?

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, whose food are you going to eat if you are lazy? Who will prepare the food for you? These are the rights which the HRC should investigate. Even the right to education cannot be enjoyed without applying any effort. This right to food will create trouble. The people that do not want to work will just go to eat other people’s food anyhow. You can not stop them.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, where can the Government find food for people who do not want to work? Human rights are good. There are some straightforward human rights which should be respected. For instance, you cannot just hit someone from nowhere. I have not heard the HRC condemn people when they are hacking each other with pangas. That is the Chawama Formula.

Mr Lungu: Question.

Laughter

Hon.Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the pangas were used in Chawama some years back. With  due respect to the hon. Member of Parliament, he was not established…

Prof. Luo: On a point order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament who is jumping all over the place when debating in order to come here and start accusing people of using certain formulas when he and his team were the think-tanks, orchestrators and implementers of the Mapatizya Formula?

Mr Livune: Question.

Interruptions

Prof. Luo: Sir, they also used it in Mufumbwe. 

I need your serious ruling.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that, since the Chair is not aware of the Mapatizya or Chawama formulas, he is unable to make a ruling.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, the respect for human rights should teach people to behave in a certain way. We have reached the levels where for one to become a chief, his/her human rights are not respected.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they will send police officers and the whole military to surround you just because you want to be a mere chief. Why should the birth right for someone to become a chief, that ka small position, not be respected? If they can interfere with the installation of a paramount chief by sending an army to arrest him, what will happen when they lose power in 2016? I am scared to think of what they would do. They are so selfish. These people will not easily surrender power.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, for them, human rights are connected to their safety. If they believe in the survival of the fittest, the stronger they are, the better for them. The only time they will respect us is when the members of the UPND will fight them and slap a few of them. That is when they will talk about the Mapatizya Formula.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Otherwise, Mr Chairperson, they cannot think of the Mapatizya Formula when they have the Chawama pangas in their hands. Even now, the only pictures we have been privileged to see are those of police officers collecting several pangas from some cadres.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the HRC has failed to comment on the issue of the person who died from beatings. An official from the police stated that the person died from natural causes. Oh my God! God forbid!

Mr Livune: Say shame. God forbid!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the parents of the deceased wanted his body exhumed, but they were told not to. What are they hiding? Even those who were not suspecting anything started thinking that there was something they were hiding. We need to do the correct things.

Sir, the HRC should be allowed to do its job. The HRC should be respected by the Government in power. Some people felt that there was a lot of suffering under the rule of the MMD. As for me, I think the human rights abuses are worse under the PF. For them, even an hon. Minister who is a lawyer can arrest a fellow hon. Member of Parliament and lock him up in the cells for no reason. Why do you do things like that?

An Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, now they want the HRC to teach them about human rights. Why? 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the PF Government has blamed the HRC for certain failures. The HRC should not allow certain wrong things to continue happening. For example, it should not promote homosexuality and lesbianism. 

I am emphasising that point because that is what they want it to do.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the Government must include all the important human rights in the most important document in the land which is the Constitution. We all should know which human rights should be included in the Constitution. For now, we want to believe that homosexuality is not a human right in our country. It is a human right for those who have different cultures.

With these very few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, to start with, let me thank the hon. Members who have debated on this topical subject which was centred on issues to do with homosexuality when a lot of other issues could have been discussed.

Sir, with respect to the protection from discrimination grounds of sexual orientation, I wish to correct the impression which has been created in this House. People who may be perceived to be homosexuals have a right to employment and medication. However, practicing homosexuality is a criminal offence under our laws.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Sir, in fact, we, in the PF, have tried hard to distance ourselves from homosexuality because it was actually the artless hymn of our campaign. Our colleagues on your left, particularly the MMD, were busy misleading the public that if the PF comes into Government, it would allow homosexuality and such other vices. We lost a lot of votes in areas where this message was shown. For that reason, we can not turn around now, and let this come to pass because people will begin saying we told you that when the PF comes into power, it would allow men to sleep with fellow men. We are not for that. Suffice to say that this thing is highly topical and people have been talking about it in and outside Parliament. It is important that we face the challenges associated with discussing this issue. We need to decide which way to go. You can not blame the Government for the discussions which are out there. There are people who are homosexual in this country. However, the truth is that there is a law against that. As enforcers of the law in the Ministry of Home Affairs, we will arrest such people. So, when we talk about it in church or in Parliament, we will find a way forward because we can not turn a blind eye to what is obtaining out there. In this country, there are real homosexuals and those who are perceived to be homosexuals. Let us come to terms with that and address these issues. Once we know the truth, we will know how to move forward.

Sir, the people who are in charge of the commission should continue to advocate for the protection of people from all forms of discrimination irrespective of their sexual orientation. Being against discrimination does not mean we are in support of homosexuality. What we are saying is that it is wrong not to give somebody a job just because that individual is perceived to be ‘sick’ and sleeps with a fellow man. Anyone found practicing homosexuality in Zambia will be arrested. If the person serves his sentence and comes out, the individual should not be discriminated against. If he is sick, treat him as a human being. We are not supporters of homosexuality. Let me assure Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Member of Parliament for Monze Central that we are on the same wavelength on this matter. It is a big challenge which we have to face. Hon. Muntanga, this is a Christian nation. We should look at things with that in mind. Until there is consensus, we can not advocate for that.

Sir, let me now talk about other issues which were raised. Prison conditions are a challenge to us. As a Government, we are working hard to ensure that there are humane conditions in prisons. Calls for us to support the conjugal rights for prisoners have not yet reached us. I had a chance to meet the European Delegation leaders on the homosexuality subject. I told them that the Zambian mind is not ready for homosexuality in whatever form. So, we can keep talking about it. This issue is contentious in Europe where they are coming from. However, that is not the same here. That is the position of the Government for now.

Mr Chairperson, on detaining people without investigation, I do not want to comment on matters that are sub-judice. If people have been detained without being charged, there are avenues available for them to challenge that in the courts of law. I noticed that, indeed, Hon. Mufalali spent a lot of time talking about matters that are in court. However, I do not want to go in that area. Suffice to say, thank you for supporting this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

VOTE 34/01 – (Human Rights Commission – Headquarters – K15,743,722).

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chenda) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda)): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendments:

(i)    Under 01 Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 3000:  
Infrastructure Development, Activity 110 General Rehabilitation K89,780;
by the deletion of   Programme 3000 and the Activity; and

(ii)    Under 06 Regional Offices Unit, Programme: 4012 Infrastructure Development,  Activity 110 General Rehabilitation by the deletion of K239,625 and substitution therefor of K329,405.”

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 34/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27 – (Public Service Management Division – K802,174,260).

Mr Lungu: Mr Chairperson, the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) in the Office of the President is charged with the overall responsibility of human resource management in the Public Service. The mandate of PSMD is derived from Gazette Notice No. 183 of 2012 on portfolio and statutory functions of Government ministries and departments.

Sir, the specific portfolio functions of the division are Public Service management, human resource management and the development of strategic and performance management services. Its mission statement is:
“To provide strategic policy direction and leadership in the management of human resources in the Public Service for enhanced service delivery.”

Mr Chairperson, with the 2013 Budget, the division executed a number of programmes as follows:

(i)    concluded the job evaluation and re-grading exercise (JERGE). A new salary and grading structure was implemented with effect from 1st September, 2013 after successful negotiations between the Government and ten Public Service unions. In addition, the division facilitated the harmonisation and rationalisation of salaries for statutory bodies under the Ministry of Health and governance institutions;

(ii)    harmonised salaries and conditions of service for the defense and security wings were implemented with effect from 1st September, 2013;

(iii)    facilitated the recruitment and placement of 262 employees under the provincial administration in Muchinga Province and 2,000 officers in all the twenty-three newly-created districts countrywide in conjunction with the Public Service Commission (PSC). In addition, the newly-created districts and provinces were added to the payroll accordingly; and

(iv)    developed a Performance Management Package (PMP) monitoring and evaluation framework which will ascertain the compliance of ministries, provinces and spending agencies to the PMP and assess its impact on Public Service management.

Mr Chairperson, in 2014 the PSMD will continue to provide strategic policy direction and leadership in the management of human resources in order to have a competent, well-motivated and professional Public Service. To attain this, the division will focus on the following areas:

(a)    Performance Management

The division will embark on institutionalisation of the PMP Monitoring and Evaluation Framework in Government ministries and institutions in order to ascertain adherence to the requirements and its impact on Public Service management;

(b)    Service Delivery Improvement

The division will work towards enhancing efficiency in the delivery of services in the Public Service through the following:

(i)    accelerating the implementation of the Public Service Record Management Policy in order to improve records management in the Public Service;

(ii)    embarking on the institutionalisation of the Human Resource Planning Framework in Government ministries and institutions for the effective utilisation of human resource.

(iii)    intensifying the technical backstopping visits to ministries, institutions and provinces to ensure compliance with laid down procedures and guidelines; and

(iv)    expanding the Public Service Induction Programme by developing an online induction programme in addition to the current model being implemented by the National Institute for Public Administration (NIPA).

(c)    Pay Reforms

The division will continue with the implementation of the Integrated Competitive Total Remuneration Strategy for enhancing pay over a ten-year period which includes the harmonisation and rationalisation of pay in the Public Service and grant-aided institutions. In addition, the PSMD will continue to contribute to the pension reforms in order to have an affordable, sustainable and portable pension system. Further, the division will facilitate the creation of an institution to facilitate the implementation of measures as contained in the Public Service Pay Policy. 

(d)    Decentralisation

Mr Chairperson, the division will decentralise the following:

(i)    some transactional aspects of human resource management and development functions to responsible officers for improved efficiency, accountability and ownership of the functions in line with the Decentralisation Policy.

(ii)    the Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) system to districts to facilitate timely decision making on the payroll management in order to enhance its integrity. In addition, the division will ensure that salaries are processed timely according to improved conditions of service and that personal emolument expenditure is within the approved Budget.

(e)    HIV/AIDS

The division will intensify the implementation of the HIV/AIDS strategy for the Public Service and promote employee wellness in the division by conducting health days in order to have a healthy and productive workforce.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the success of any national development programme is dependent on competent human resource. It is incumbent upon this august House, therefore, to support the PSMD’s estimates for its programmes and activities.
 
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate the policy statement that the hon. Minister has delivered. In supporting this particular Vote, let me agree with the hon. Minister that the PSMD is there to ensure that there is enhanced service delivery in the public sector. It is extremely important. However, while that is the mission or one of the focuses of the PSMD, we have a disconnection between the PSMD and our training needs in the country. The PSMD is supposed to be signaling to the various institutions of training in the country as to what exactly the Public Service training needs are. However, so far, I have not come across a national training needs policy. If it is there, I would love to have a copy.

Sir, we know that the curriculum and various training programmes in our institutions of learning are determined by the institutions themselves. Universities formulate their curriculum without any signaling effect from our PSMD and yet it is the employer of the human resource trained in our institutions of higher learning. That is the disjoint. Of course, the challenge is that when the human resource enters the public sector, in terms of service, there are a lot of weaknesses …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate Adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

 (Progress reported)
    
_________ 

The house adjourned at 1957 hours until 1400 hours on Wednesday, 20th November, 2013.

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