Debates- Thursday, 21st November, 2013

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 21st November, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

RULING BY MR SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY THE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MONZE CENTRAL CONSTITUENCY, HON. J. J. MWIIMBU, ON THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS, HON. S. KAMPYONGO, MP, ON FRIDAY, 15TH NOVEMBER, 2013

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I have a ruling to make.

You will recall that, on Friday, 15th November, 2013, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 184 and the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili Parliamentary Constituency, Mr D. Mwila, was asking a supplementary question, the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central Constituency, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, raised the following point of order:

“Mr Speaker, today, I have heard another pronouncement by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that this House does not allow matters that are under investigation to be discussed when, in fact, we cannot discuss matters that are in court. Does the sub judice rule apply to matters under investigation by the security wings of Government? Is he in order to mislead this august House?”

In my immediate response to the point of order, I reserved the ruling. My office has since studied the question raised in the point of order, and I now render the ruling.

Hon. Members are reminded that the point of order raised by Hon. Mwiimbu, MP, arose from the answer the hon. Deputy Minister gave in response to Question for Oral Answer No. 184, which was asked by Hon. Mbulakulima, MP, the Member of Parliament for Chembe Constituency. In that question, particularly in Part (a) (i) and (ii), Hon. Mbulakulima had asked the hon. Minister whether the suspects in the murder of Mr Menyani Zulu during the Rufunsa Local Government By-election, and Mr Johannes Liakoka and Mr Harrison Chanda, who died during the Livingstone Parliamentary By-election in circumstances involving political violence, had been arrested.

In response, the hon Deputy Minister stated the following:

“Mr Speaker, I would like to seek your indulgence by stating that some of these matters are actively before the courts of law while others are under investigation. Therefore, our responses will be in line with that status quo.
    
Mr Speaker, the Zambia Police Force took immediate action in the murder of Mr Menyani Zulu. One suspect was arrested and has been appearing before the courts of law for murder. In the case of the death of Mr Johannes Liakoka, a docket of the case was opened and the matter is still under investigation. We have continued to appeal to members of the public with any information that can lead to the successful arrest of the suspects to come forward. In the case of the death of Mr Harrison Chanda, the police arrested one suspect, who is facing a charge of murder and the matter is before the courts.”

In a follow-up question to the hon. Deputy Minister’s answer, Hon. Nkombo, Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, asked why no person had been questioned, arrested and tried over the death of Mr Liakoka, despite it having been established that the deceased had been in the company of colleagues on the night he met his unfortunate death, and that he had had a telephone conversation with some people shortly before his death. In response, the hon. Deputy Minister stated as follows:

“Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that detailed explanation. However, you made a ruling, and I would not want to go away from the ruling. I indicated that this matter is still under investigation and, with that information and other information he knows, the hon. Member can always make it available to the police. This is what the police are looking for.” 

Hon. Members, it was thereupon that Hon. Mwiimbu raised his point of order.

In ruling on the point of order, I want to guide the House that sub judice is a self-imposed rule that prevents the House from debating matters that are before the courts of law. Therefore, it does not apply to matters that are under investigation by the police or any other investigative wing of the Government. To shed more light on the subject, I wish to refer to the book by S. L. Shakdher and M. N. Kaul entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Sixth Edition, which is helpful on this matter. On Page 1123, the authors state the following:

“A question on a subject under investigation is not disallowed on the ground that the matter is sub judice. However, questions regarding matters under police investigation have been discouraged; members in possession of any particular and reliable information about a matter under police investigation have been advised to pass on that information to the Minister concerned.” 

From the foregoing observation, it is apparent that the sub judice rule does not apply to matters that are under police investigation. This notwithstanding, the House is discouraged from delving into questions, Motions or other business on matters that are under police investigation. The reason for this is very simple to understand: it is to prevent the divulging of information that has the potential to unduly prejudice or jeopardise the cases under investigation. However, this does not, by any means, suggest that it would be sub judice for the House to discuss such matters. In view of what I have outlined above, an hon. Minister cannot use the sub judice rule as an excuse for declining to comment on a matter under police investigation. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: In this regard, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Hon. Kampyongo, was out of order. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: However, however, however, indeed, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … from the preliminary answer to the principal question, in particular, to part (a) (i) and (ii), the subject of Hon. Nkombo’s follow-up question, it is clear that the hon. Deputy Minister meant that, even for matters that were not before the court, but under police investigations, he could not divulge more information than he had done as doing so would prejudice police investigations. 

In conclusion, the House will note that the book I referred to on the subject of police investigations vis-à-vis the debate of the House, the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs was in order to request Hon. Nkombo, MP, or, indeed, any other hon. Member with reliable information on the matter to submit it to the police.

I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

_____________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

KAZOMBOZOMBO PRIMARY SCHOOL

191. Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    why the Government had built ventilated improved pit (VIP) latrines before building classroom blocks and teacher’s houses at the Kazombozombo Primary School site in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b)    when funds would be allocated for the construction of classroom blocks and teacher’s houses at the school.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr P. Ngoma): Mr Speaker, the Government only built 3 x 2 VIP latrines at the Kazombozombo Primary School site in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency in accordance with the ministry’s 2012 Infrastructure Development Plan (IDP).

Sir, the construction of infrastructure at various schools around Lukulu District is being done in a phased approach owing to limited resources. You may wish to note that staff houses are being constructed in Lukulu District at Nyachi, Maduma and Mukuma at a cost of K390,000. Funds permitting, we will include the construction of staff houses at Kazombozombo Primary School in future IDPs.

Mr Speaker, the funds allocated for the construction of classroom blocks and teacher’s houses at the school will be released once they have been received by the ministry.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has said that the Government only built three VIP latrines. Why did it start building pit latrines, instead of classroom blocks?

Interruptions

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, the Government builds such facilities in collaboration with its co-operating partners. In this case, the Government was supposed to build the latrines while the co-operating partners were supposed to build the other infrastructure. Unfortunately, the co-operating partners did not provide the money for the construction of the other infrastructure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, during 2009 to 2011, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) used to build not less than two classroom blocks in each constituency in Zambia. Where have we gone wrong that a constituency is now allocated only one classroom block or none at all?

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, the plans may have been as stated by the hon. Member. Unfortunately, even those plans were not implemented. 

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, what I mean is that the plans were for that kind of infrastructure to be built in each constituency, but the construction did not actually take place. However, this Government intends to build classroom blocks, teacher’s houses …

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr P. Ngoma: … as well as VIP latrines wherever it wants to build schools.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, those are the plans of this Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, which co-operating partner was supposed to build classrooms at Kazombozombo Primary School?

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, the ministry works with various co-operating partners.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, will the co-operating partners require a 25 per cent contribution from the community like the Government does?

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, it all depends on the agreement that the co-operating partners, the Government and the community will reach. If what the hon. Member has talked about is deemed necessary, it will be one of the conditions.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Luapula Province, …

Hon. PF Members: Since when?

Mr Mwiimbu: … I would like to find out what happened to the projects that were supposed to be implemented by the ministry in Luapula Province, but were not, despite being budgeted for?

Brig-Gen. Kapaya: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Before the point of order is raised and the hon. Minister responds, I wish to state that the hon. Member of Parliament’s question is a new one.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Speaker: He can pursue it appropriately by filing a question.

Hon. Member for Sikongo, ask your question.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Speaker, when will the ministry allocate money for building classroom blocks at the school?

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier, our co-operating partners were supposed to provide the money for the construction of classroom blocks and teacher’s houses. So, as soon as they are able to do that, the implementation of the project will proceed.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, which of the two …

Prof. Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, my sincere apologies to the hon. Member for Kalabo Central for interrupting him. 

Sir, is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to inform the nation that co-operating partners have withdrawn their support to the education sector without giving details? 

I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: Well, that seems to be the implication. So, I will ask the hon. Minister to clarify the matter. 

Continue, hon. Member for Kalabo Central.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, which of the two should the Government construct first, toilets or classroom blocks?
 
Hon. Government Member: Both.

Mr Miyutu: Which of the two facilitates teaching and learning?

Mr Speaker: I hope that is not as difficult as an egg and chicken question.

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, that is truly an egg and chicken paradox. The ministry plans for the construction of complete schools. However, in this case, as the hon. Deputy Minister said, we had an arrangement with our co-operating partners in which we constructed the latrines. Our partners are supposed to provide the money for constructing the other infrastructure. Unfortunately, the money was not availed to us in 2012. So, we moved the implementation of the project to this year. As I speak, money is being released by the Ministry of Finance for the project. We hope that it will not be too late for the children of the area to be availed access to education facilities. 

Coming to Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa’s point of order, no donors have withdrawn their support. We would have told this House if that was the case. It was just a delay in the release of funds. We are working very comfortably with all the co-operating partners in the education sector.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, now that we have been assured that the money is being released by the Ministry of Finance, what is the duration of the project?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, this is a 2012 Project. So, we hope to do something meaningful this year. If we do not complete it this year, we will definitely do so in 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister seems to be generalising in referring to the co-operating partners involved in this project. Who are they?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that we have a number of co-operating partners who pool their money together and provide it to us for us to finance projects. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

SESHEKE POLICE STATION

192. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    when Sesheke Police Station would be renovated;

(b)    when sanitation in the holding cells would be improved; and

(c)    when the Government would construct female and juvenile holding cells at the police station.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Speaker, Sesheke Police Station is earmarked for renovation in the second quarter of 2014. Funds for this exercise have been allocated in the 2014 Budget.

Sir, sanitation in the holding cells of Sesheke Police Station will be improved when the renovation works earmarked for the second quarter of 2014 have been undertaken. The improvement of sanitation in the holding cells will involve the re-construction of the toilet, sewer and water reticulation systems.

Mr Speaker, the Government will construct female and juvenile holding cells at Sesheke Police Station once the activity has been budgeted for. The project will be considered in the 2015 Budget.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that prisoners at Sesheke Police Station use buckets to answer the call of nature? 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, we are aware of the inconvenience that the prisoners face. That is why we have provided for the improvement of sanitation in next year’s Budget.

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, are female members of the community remanded in the same cells with men? Can the hon. Minister, please, clarify that. 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, I did not say what the hon. Member is saying. Police officers always improvise alternative space for female suspects whenever necessary. The female suspects are never mixed with male ones. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister is aware that prisoners use buckets to answer the call of nature, will the ministry buy more buckets for Sesheke Police Station as a short-term measure? 

Laughter 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, I do not think that the current number of buckets has become inadequate. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, going by the hon. Minister’s confession that sanitation at the police station is really bad, what does she think has stopped the Ministry of Health from closing it?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Lungu): Mr Speaker, we work in conjunction with local authorities and the Ministry of Health. These always advise us on what measures to take, including closure, when the situation becomes unbearable. For now, we have not been so advised.   

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that when womenfolk are arrested, they are kept at the reception of the police station for the whole night, risking harassment by unruly police officers?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, we do not have unruly officers in the Zambia Police Force. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Lungu: When we discover any, we weed them out. 

Sir, the Government is aware that, in some situations, women are made to spend nights at the reception because of a lack of holding facilities for them. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that nearly all the police stations in Zambia do not have juvenile holding cells? 

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, it is not true that all police posts and stations have no juvenile holding —

Mr Hamusonde: Nearly all.

Mr Lungu: Yes. It is not true that nearly all police posts or stations have no juvenile holding cells. However, I am aware that many face this challenge and we are doing something about it. All the police stations and posts we are currently building will have that facility. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister not aware that there are mobile toilet facilities? Why does his ministry not provide these amenities to police stations like Sesheke, pending the construction of permanent facilities?

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the problem with that suggestion is that mobile toilets are placed outside the building, not inside, and it is a security risk to take prisoners out of the police cells to the mobile toilets outside the building because of inadequate personnel and equipment. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the construction of female and juvenile holding cells has been a Government assurance for the past ten years? If he is aware, why does the Government not consider it an emergency and ask the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to build the facilities at Sesheke Police Station, where the situation is critical? 

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, we have only been in Government for two years. So, we found this problem. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lungu: Suffice it to say that we are taking urgent measures to ensure that juveniles all over the country are separated from adults as per international standard. With regard to whether the DMMU will be amenable to rendering its assistance to the Ministry of Home Affairs, I have to talk to His Honour the Vice-President at an appropriate time. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: I will allow two more questions, one from the hon. Member for Nalikwanda and the other from hon. Member for Lukulu West. 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I thank you …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has informed this House and the nation that he cannot provide mobile toilet facilities because they would have to be placed outside and that escorting prisoners outside to those facilities would pose a security risk. Is he not aware that there are police posts and stations that have external toilet facilities for prisoners? 

Is he in order to mislead us on this matter? 

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister will take the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Monze Central into account as he responds to the question by the hon. Member for Nalikwanda. 

Additionally, I have decided to make the question from the hon. Member for Mafinga the last one.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, how would the hon. Minister of Home Affairs rate the use of buckets by prisoner to answer the call of nature on the scale of human rights? 

Laughter {mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, scaling. 

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda is talking about the use of buckets by prisons to answer the call of nature. In my view, that is a different question altogether from the one we are dealing with. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Lungu: We are dealing with police cells in Sesheke and I did not apply my mind to the Zambia Prisons Service, where the use buckets as toilet facilities. I came here with the idea of talking about the police cells in Sesheke very clear on my mind. I even anticipated that we might extend the topic to include the police cells in Kalomo or some other place. However, I did not come here with the intention of talking about prisons because I do not think that the use of buckets is as rampant in prisons as it is in the police. Suffice it to say that the practice is, indeed, repugnant and it is one problem we would like to overcome. However, we need resources and time. Mind you, we have only been in the Government for two years, ...

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lungu: … but we are already doing something about it. I assure you that we are looking at these indignities, which are prevalent in the police and prisons. Funds permitting, we will certainly do more about it than you did in twenty years.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I agree that this Government has been in power for two years only. However, it promised to improve things in ninety days. Therefore, what immediate measures will it put in place to improve the situation in Sesheke, which is currently inhuman for the prisoners? 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, as you respond to this question, please, respond to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Monze Central. 

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, when we promised to improve things within ninety days, we meant that we would begin cracking on the problems left by the MMD within ninety days and …

Laughter

Mr Lungu: … I can tell you that, immediately you get …

Mr Livune: Question.

Mr Lungu: … the planning authority to begin thinking about a solution to a problem, you are on the way to solving that problem. For us, the ninety days promise was made in the sense of those plans being approved and sanctioned for implementation within that period. I can assure you that we are doing something countrywide, which we began thinking about both at planning and implementation stage within ninety days after coming into power. I do not think that we have failed the people in respect of that promise.

Mr Speaker, as for the point of order by Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, the facilities that we have at police posts and police stations countrywide differ depending on the area. The latrines may be outside, in some places, but they are within safe distances for the officer to escort suspects. However, if that is not possible, the authorities decide what to do, bearing in mind how safe it would be to move a prisoner or a suspect from a police cell to the ablution place. Every police post or police station has its challenges and limitations. Another factor to consider is the number of officers manning that post or station. If there is only one person on duty, it would be irresponsible for him or her to abandon his position to take a suspect to the toilet.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, as a follow up on the question by Hon. Imenda, can the hon. Minister clarify the period that female inmates spend at the reception and whether they also use buckets at the reception.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I am sure it will please the hon. Member of Parliament to learn that female suspects are so highly respected by the police that they are given access to the Officer-in-Charge’s toilet. 

Sir, in answering a similar question by the hon. Member for Muchinga, sometime in the last sitting, I told the House that, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Lungu: … when a female suspect is held by the police, the nearest detention or holding centre is always a consideration for quick delivery of such suspects. With the transport difficulties that we have, say in Sesheke, we will make sure that we move the suspect quickly either to the court of law or find her where she can be locked up with the facilities available to all other suspects. We do not keep these people longer than necessary. Mostly, if they are arrested in the afternoon and there is transport, they are delivered to the nearest safe place for custody of the female suspects the following morning.

I thank you, Sir.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Vote 46/01 – (Ministry of Health – 2, 646,390,446)

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up this debate. I was about to do so yesterday just before the House adjourned, and was appreciating the contributions of the hon. Members and their support summarised by the hon. Member for Kalabo Central in the following statement:

“Support the budget from the bottom of your heart.” 

Mr Chairperson, there were two major aspects of the contributions. Firstly, there was a group whose contributions could be grouped into five major categories, which I was going to mention. Secondly, there were those that I had to recognise that they could not be done justice in the available time, one or two of which I might comment on. 

Mr Chairperson, the first category involves the following concerns:

(a)    the issue of two ministries being involved in the healthcare delivery system;

(b)    the quality and quantity of human resource training;

(c)    availability of drugs, including anti-retrovirals (ARV);

(d)    infrastructure, in particular, filter clinics and other structures that were being constructed; and 

(e)    mobile health services.

Mr Chairperson, I sought the indulgence of the House not go into details, except on the two ministries overseeing the same sector, namely, the provision of healthcare services, about which I talked at length. I do, however, wish to talk about the role of advocacy in advancing our health agenda from the other category of points. I will do so in the context of the observations by the hon. Member for Solwezi West on the advocacy work of the First Lady, Dr Christine Kaseba-Sata, notwithstanding the limitations about what Parliament might or might not consider. I want to ensure that the message of advocacy as a tool for developing the health sector is appreciated by Parliament. 

Sir, experience has shown us that political commitment has been a greater tool in improving health services and social reform in general than any of the scientific tools for the same purpose. It was for this reason that this country went to New York, United States of America (USA) in 2000 and participated in persuading our Heads of State to propound the millennium development goals (MDGs). It was for the same reason that, four years after the New York Summit, our Heads of State in Africa committed themselves to increasing funding to the health sector in Abuja, Nigeria, and it is with this background that we shall go to New York in 2014 to participate in preparations for the Post-2015 Development Agenda at the political level. I want to recognise that at the zenith of advocacy are Parliamentarians ...

The Chairperson: Order, on my extreme right and left!

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Dr Kasonde: ... and the parliamentary process. Therefore, it is an opportune moment for us, Parliamentarians, to welcome the opportunity and use it to reform our social system and healthcare services when a person who presents a combination of charm, passion, prestige, knowledge and intellectual stamina, such as the First Lady, presents herself. Of course, in this case, it is the First Lady, but there are other citizens who may wish to present themselves as advocates of health. I wish to remind hon. Members that this is the business in which we are, and that we should welcome the work that is being done.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 46/01 – (Ministry of Health – Human Resource and Administration – K374,055,991)

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5000, Activity 003 – Salaries, Division III – K7,300,584 and Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K57,628,082. In this year’s Budget, these activities were allocated K647,861 and 3,258,023, respectively. Why is there such a huge increment in the allocations to these activities for next year?

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chikusu): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5000, Activity 003 – Salaries Division III – K7,300,584, the funds are required for the payment of salaries to officers in Division III in accordance with the staff establishment and condition of service. The increase is due to the salary increment effected in September, 2013, and upgrading of Classified Daily Employees (CDEs) to Division III. Activity 005 – Other Emoluments – K57,628,082, is required for the payment of settling-in allowances, leave travel benefits, repatriation, commutation of leave days and other allowances. The increase is intended to clear arrears. 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011 – Infrastructure Development …

The Chairperson: We have not reached that Head yet. We are still on Head 46/01. Is there any further debate?

Mr Mulomba: I will hold on, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 091 – K16,238,517. Considering that there will be a recruitment moratorium for the next two years, why is there such a huge increase in this activity compared with this year’s allocation of K6,125,925? Whom will we train or re-train? Is it the current crop of employees? If so, have they been working without skills all this time?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, this is one question we should anticipate on all Votes. 

Sir, training will continue, whether in-service or pre-service. As to the issue of employment, I do not think it that question should be addressed under this Head.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5079, Activity 005 – Insurance of Motor Vehicle – K981,382. For us to appreciate the proposed budget for 2014, how much is the insured value is of this motor vehicle for its premium to be K981,382?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, the K981,382 is required for insuring the ministry’s vehicles countrywide. It is not possible for me to break it down into the specific costs because it depends as much on the number of vehicles as on the duration of their use. So, we have calculated how much we shall need for this purpose on the basis of experience from previous budgets. We do not have an exact figure.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, I am now on page 665 with you, and I seek clarification on Programme 5034, Activity 001 – Computerisation of Records – K150,000. In this year’s Budget, there is an allocation of K24,399 while, for 2014, the proposed amount is K150,000. Why is there such an increase?

Mr Mulenga left his seat and sat next to Dr Chikusu.

Laughter

Mr Mulenga: There is a crisis.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Chairperson, the K150,000 is intended to meet costs related to the installation of an electronic record system for easy storage and retrieval of information. The increase is due to the cost of the electronic records management activities planned for 2014.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 46/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/02 – (Ministry of Health – Policy and Planning – K126,910,386)

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chenda) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Head 46/02 – Ministry of Health – Planning and Policy,  under Unit 02 – Planning and Budgeting, Programme: 5011 – Infrastructure Development, Activity 705 – Construction of a National Training School, as follows:

(a)    by the deletion of K24,328,286 and the substitution therefor of K24,731,486; and

(b)    by the deletion of the Department Total K126,910,386 and the substitution therefor of K127,313,588.

Amendment agreed to.

Vote 46/02 amended accordingly.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 111 – Construction of District Hospitals – K2,000,000 and Activity 178 – Construction of Hospitals – K15,119,596. These activities have been funded for next year 2014. How different are they?

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Mulenga): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5011, Activity 111 – Construction of District Hospitals – K2,000,000, is meant for the construction of district hospitals at different levels. The reduction on this Budget line is due to the fact that it is meant for completion of some hospitals which were already started.

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Deputy Minister who is on the Floor in order to be responding to questions from the wrong seat?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: I am advised that both hon. Deputy Ministers are in order to sit behind the hon. Minister. So, it is okay.

You may continue, hon. Deputy Minister.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that the reduction in the Budget line is due to the fact that it is meant for the completion of some hospitals that have already been started this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 181 – Ambulances and Utility Vehicles – K2,900,000. In the 2013 Budget, the allocation was K13,094,119. Why has the allocation been reduced? Does it mean that we have enough ambulances for the entire country?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is because the procurement of ambulances has moved to the Directorate of Mobile Health Services, Department No. 9, to better align it with the department’s mandate, whereas only the Budget line for the procurement of utility motor vehicles has remained under this activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 177 – Rehabilitation of Training Schools – Nil. I notice that there is no allocation for next year. Will there be any rehabilitation or renovation of training schools next year?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, I can assure the hon. Member that the rehabilitation works will continue. However, the Budget line has been decentralised to the training schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 111 – Construction of District Hospitals – K2,000,000. This reduction in the allocation does not make sense to me, especially …

The Chairperson: What is the question?

Mr Livune: Sir, the question is: Why is there a reduction in the allocation to this activity when this Government has a huge appetite for creating districts and we need these hospitals? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, this question was asked earlier and I answered it. However, I will repeat the answer. The allocation to the construction of district hospitals is not only on this Budget line. There is another. For the sake of clarity, this reduction is because the money is meant to complete hospitals that are already under construction. Some of them are at Phase II while others are at Phase III. There is a different allocation to the construction of hospitals that are yet to be started.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 225 – Zambia Flying Doctor Service Infrastructure Support – Nil. In 2013, this activity had an allocation but, this year, there is none. Does it mean that we will do away with this service?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, there is no line for this activity in the 2014 Budget because it is expected to be completed this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I had asked on Programme 5011, Activity 111 – Construction of District Hospitals – K2,000,000 and Activity 178 – Construction of Hospitals – K15,119,596. I now add Activity 701 – Construction of Mazabuka General Hospital – K6,341,859. All these activities are about construction of hospitals. Why do we have all these activities relating to the construction of hospitals instead of harmonising them? After all, there is a reduction in the allocation.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, there is no confusion. These are specific activities and Budget lines.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 111 – Construction of District Hospitals – K2,000,000. In his answer, the hon. Deputy Minister said that there is another Budget line for the construction of district hospitals. Where is it?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, I am just from answering a question from Hon. Mutelo, in which he referred to other Budget lines. One of them is Activity 178 – Construction of Hospitals – K15,119,596.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, is Pemba included in the Budget line for the construction of a district hospital, since it is a new district?

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Livune: Yes it is.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, yes, the district is earmarked for the construction of a district hospital. However, I cannot assure you that the hospital will be constructed in this Budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 704 – Construction of a National Health Research Authority – K2,717,939. What is this activity all about? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the Government plans to construct offices for the National Health Research Authority. The allocation is meant to finance the start of the activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 178 – Construction of Hospitals – K15,119,596. Under the same programme, there are other activities for the construction of specific hospitals. Which hospitals will be constructed under Activity 178? I presume this is the construction of new hospitals.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, we cannot list the hospitals that will be constructed from the K15 million allocated to this activity.

Interruptions

Mr Mulenga: Just listen. 

There is a department responsible for planning at the ministry, which determines the projects to be prioritised. As for those that have already started, we can mention them, for example, Kalomo District Hospital.

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Mulenga: It is there.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

Please, do not engage in a dialogue with those who are seated.

Vote 46/02, as amended, order to start part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/13 – (Ministry of Health – Luapula Province – K62,943,015).

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Chenda) (on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda)): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Unit 13: Mbereshi Nursing School, Programme: 5003, Capacity Building as follows:

(a)    Activity 001 – Institutional Support, by the deletion of K120,791;

(b)    Activity 017 – Procurement of Training Equipment and Materials, by the deletion of K40,320;

(c)    Activity 031 – Training of Health Workers, by the deletion of K242,091;

(d)    by the deletion of Programme Total of K403,202;

(e)    by the deletion of the Unit Total of K403,202; and

(f)    by the deletion of Department Total K62,934,015 and the substitution therefor of K62,530,813.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. 

Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 46/13, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/15 – (Ministry of Health – North-Western Province – K70,140,674).

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on page 702, Programme 5000, Activity 004 – Wages – Nil. There is no proposed Budget line for this activity in 2014. Can the hon. Minister confirm that this is as a result of the wage freeze.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, that activity has been removed as a result of the harmonisation of civil servants’ salaries. The Government has decided to upgrade all CDEs to Division III.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I am on page 704, Programme 5011, Activity 111 …

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to raise this point of order. 

Sir, I am a bit scared. Is Hon. Kampyongo in order to be so quiet the whole afternoon, to the point that he has even failed to rise on a point of order?

The Chairperson: Please, let us be serious when raising points of order.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, a bit of humour there.

The Chairperson: No, there is no need for a bit of humour. Just ask your question.

Laughter 

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, on page 704, Programme 5011, Activity 111 – …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

On my right, I hope you are listening. Otherwise, the hon. Minister will not be able to get the question.

Mr Lufuma: … Construction of District Hospitals – K5,964,506. There was a Government assurance that a general hospital would be built in Kabompo, but I have not seen a specific Budget line for that activity. Is it catered for under this activity? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, the funds the hon. Member of Parliament is referring to are meant to meet the cost of constructing a district hospital in Chavuma, not in Kabompo. For Kabompo, we have a different plan.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 46/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 46/16 ordered to stand pat of the Estimates.

Vote 46/17 ordered to stand pat of the Estimates.

VOTE 46/18 – (Ministry of Heath – Western Province – K61, 809,290).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 073 – Research and Training – K92,995. This year, the allocation was K245,990. Will there be any research and training next year in the Western Province with such little money?

Mr Mutelo wanted to continue.

The Chairperson: The question is clear.

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the reduction is due to the re-prioritisation of activities within the hospitals to focus more on health service delivery. That is what the province has been crying for.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Page 717, Unit 11 – Senanga General Hospital. I note that there was no allocation this year to any of the programmes under this unit. Can I be educated on what will be happening there. I know that there has been Senanga General Hospital, but why is there an allocation for next year when there has been none, so far? Is it a new …

The Chairperson: The question is clear. The hon. Minister may answer.

Dr Chikusu: Mr Chairperson, these activities are new, and that is why we thought that we should put them in this Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Ms Lufuma, oh, Mr Lufuma. I beg your pardon.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: A little humour, again.

Laughter

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5000, Activity 004 – Wages – Nil. We have been told by the hon. Deputy Minister that the CDEs have been upgraded. So, I am quite aware of that. However, is it the current Government’s policy not to have the CDEs?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, this is a policy issue. In the previous answer, it was stated that every effort had been made to make the CDEs full-time salaried employees instead of keeping them as daily paid employees. In the event that there is a need to have the CDEs again, we have not excluded the possibility of engaging them. However, we are trying to discourage the practice. Even Parliamentarians have often complained about it. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milambo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Page 718, Programme 5025, Activity 014 – Provincial Planning Meetings – K305,000. Why is there is a reduction by K15,000 on this year’s allocation?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, I must ask him to repeat the page numbers.

The Chairperson: Hon. Milambo, can you repeat your question?

Mr Milambo repeated the question.

The Chairperson: I hope you have seen the page, hon. Minister.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your clarification. 

Sir, the K305,000 is meant to cater for provincial planning meetings, which have been held before. The variance is a reflection of the activities planned for 2014. In other words, this activity is continuous but, in 2014, there will be less money spent on meetings. This is generally due to our intention to divert money, wherever possible, from administrative costs to service delivery.

I thank you, Sir.    

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5025, Activity 026 – Mobile and Emergency Outreach Services – K1,656,219. In 2013, the allocation was K2,244,008. Why is there a reduction when, in fact, we are in need of the mobile services?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to a variation in the programme. There have been adjustments so that more of the funds go to some activities than to others. The total has not changed. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 111 – Construction of District Hospitals – K8,611,612. Which district hospitals will be constructed in the Western Province?

Dr Kasonde: The district hospitals are Lukulu, Mulobezi and Mongu.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 46/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 46/19 – (Ministry of Health – Muchinga Province – K31,687,977).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil. This year, the activity was allocated K506,122. Why is there no allocation for next year?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Chairperson, in the past, an amount was allocated to staff welfare. Mainly, this was advanced as loans to individuals. With the re-organisation of facilities for loans to staff at the national level, we no longer need our own provision for staff loans.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 46/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE – 21 (Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance – K7,766,238,305 and VOTE 37 – Ministry of Finance – K1,815,000,508).

Mr Chenda (on behalf of the Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda)): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to present the policy statement on the 2014 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Finance.  

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance is charged with the responsibility of planning national development and managing the economy at the macro-level. It is also responsible for mobilising and managing public resources and co-ordinating the preparation of the national Budget in line with the plans of the country.

Mr Chairperson, Vote 21 – Loans and Investments is meant for contributions and subscriptions to international organisations, counterpart funding to donor-aided projects, financial re-structuring, re-capitalisation of state-owned enterprises and financing of road infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, K7.8 billion has been proposed under Vote 21,     broken down as follows:

(a)    K40.7 billion for payment of contributions to regional and international organisations;

(b)    K158.9 million for projects like the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEC), the Cancer Diseases Hospital, Phase II, Project, and youth skills training and development;

(c)    K2.6 billion for investments and the re-capitalisation of Government institutions. Under this programme, K875 million has been set aside for the re-capitalisation of state-owned enterprises while K550 million has been provided for electricity generation, transmission and distribution infrastructure. A further 339.8 million has been set aside to rehabilitate the railway network and re-capitalise the Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA);

(d)    K550 million for development of infrastructure in the newly-formed districts and province;

(e)    K100 million for loans to civil servants under the newly-established Public Service Micro-finance Company; and

(f)    K4.9 billion for road infrastructure under the Road Development Agency (RDA). 

Mr Chairperson, let me now bring out the salient features of Vote 37 – Ministry of Finance. 

Sir, my ministry continues to pursue prudent fiscal management in the implementation of appropriate policies, programmes and strategies for sustained economic growth. In order to accelerate the development agenda of the country, it has set aside K1.8 billion. Notable expenditure under Vote 37 includes the following:

(a)    K462.4 million for grants to institutions like the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA), the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC), the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) and the Revenue Appeals Tribunal (RAT);

(b)     K680 million for employers’ share statutory obligation for all civil servants, which is centrally budgeted for under my ministry;

(c)    K165.9 million for personal emoluments for all Constitutional office holders;

(d)    K34.9 million for the continued roll-out of the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) in line with this Government’s commitment to strengthening financial management in the Public Service; and

(e)    K53.5 million for the dismantling of arrears accumulated by Government ministries prior to 2002.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to comment on some of the major reforms to be undertaken by the Ministry of Finance. 

Sir, the primary focus of the ministry in 2014 will be the development of the National Planning and Budgeting Bill. I wish to assure the House that this long overdue piece of legislation will receive high priority in the operations of my ministry. Further, my ministry will strengthen cash management by addressing challenges associated with large unutilised balances in Government bank accounts. In this regard, the ministry will accelerate the establishment of a Treasury Single Account to enhance the Government’s ability to oversee its accounts and avoid the accumulation of idle funds.

Mr Chairperson, I hope that my explanations have been elaborate enough to assuage all the hon. Members’ concerns. I now recommend Vote 21 – Loans and Investments, and Vote 37 – Ministry of Finance, for the favourable consideration and approval of this House.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, I thank you. I will be very brief because I only have two items to discuss.

Mr Chairperson, may I start by pledging my support for the Vote. However, I have two talking points, the first of which is a request. 

Sir, I think that Vote 21 – Loans and Investments is supposed to be under the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. I remember that, in the past, under the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD), when Mr Magande was the hon. Minister of Finance, there was an agreement that this Vote be taken back under the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication. It is currently very misplaced. We have already discussed the Vote for the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication under which programmes to do with roads, bridges, axle-loading and similar infrastructure should have been discussed in detail. I do not think that the Ministry of Finance can fully answer the questions that can be raised on this Vote. Mr Chairperson, I believe in talking General-to-General, not General-to-Corporal.

Laughter 

Mr Mooya: So, this Vote should have been under the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication because that is where the experts in the programmes mentioned here are. Therefore, I appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance to facilitate the transfer of this Vote back to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication so that we get answers to questions that we may raise. If my memory serves me right, a former hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication had said that the technocrats in the Ministry of Finance under Mr Magande had refused to do that. I appeal to them to let go of this Vote.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the reforms in the public procurement system, I remember that, towards the end of last year, the hon. Minister of Finance said that the reforms would be implemented by January, 2013, and there was supposed to be a meeting to facilitate the take-off of the programme. However, as far as I know, this meeting has not been held yet. I think that it is important to implement the reforms, one of which is the regulation of the procurement entities in the ministries and provinces by the ZPPA while the procurement entities would do what the ZPPA was doing. In short, they would swap roles. 

Another proposal that excited me under the reforms was the representation of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), the Zambia Police Force and the Office of the President (OP) in procurement committees to minimise the incidence of corruption in the procurement of public services. I think that this is a very good idea. So, Zambians want to know whether these reforms have been implemented because we are losing a lot of money through corruption. One thing worth noting is that, when it comes to the evaluation of bids, we must be very careful. We need technically qualified people to do that. We can have representation of the ACC or OP but, if they do not understand technical aspects, corruption will continue. Those with the technical know-how will continue dribbling the rest. I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister of Finance to tell us whether these reforms have been implemented or not.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

The Chairperson: Before business was suspended, the Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Year 1st January to 31st December, 2014 was considering the general policy debate on Vote 21 (Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance – K7,766,238,305) and Vote 37 – (Ministry of Finance – K1,815,000,508), and the hon. Member for Moomba had just finished debating.

Hon. Simbao, you may take the Floor.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support this Vote, but with concerns about the performance of our economy. 

Sir, the foreign direct investment (FDIs) in this country is being driven by the mining sector. Unfortunately, the investments in that sector do not easily trickle down to the people in the village. Once the money is realised, it is used in things that the villager does not see. That means that the sectors that can benefit the villagers, for example, agriculture, are not being attended to in this country. What I mean is that there does not seem to be enough money in circulation in the economy. Many of the business people are complaining that their goods are not selling. The distributors are also complaining that they are not able to distribute goods like they used to do. That points to the shortage of the Kwacha in circulation in the economy. That appears to be raising the prices of all goods and services. Recently, I was really shocked when I walked into the Makeni Pick‘n’Pay and found a 50kg bag of mealie-meal going at K60. I do not know when the price rose from K50, which was the price I knew, to K60. I do not know because I grow my own maize and grind it for my mealie-meal. So, I do not buy mealie-meal. Again, this points to the fact that there is not enough Kwacha in circulation in the economy. I think that no one can argue with that. The Government must, therefore, seriously look at the economy. We have a problem and, if we are not careful, we could be headed for a disaster.

Sir, the exchange rate of K5.70 to US$1 is unimaginable. I remember that I talked about this, a year or so ago, and asked the hon. Minister of Finance about it. The rate was K4.70 to US$1 when he took over as hon. Minister of Finance, and he promised that he would keep it between K4.70 and K4.80. Does he really understand how this works? Do we know who controls our exchange rate?

Sir, who really keeps our reserves? Do we know what they are doing? Do we know how this money is performing offshore? I asked the hon. Minister all these questions and I was told not to worry because the Government would be kept at K4.8. Today, however, the exchange rate is at K5.7. I am aware that someone will say that it is good for importers. However, for the people in my area, all the things that they used to enjoy will become a pipe dream. That is the problem for me and many other people who come from rural constituencies. It is easy for people who come from urban constituencies because, for example, the Government workers have been given a good increment, except for nurses. So, the workers in town cannot see much difference in their purchasing power. However, for the rural people, all the basics will become impossible for them to afford. At K5.7 to US$1, sugar, cooking oil, salt, soap and everything else will escalate to unimaginably high prices. That is my concern. So, I would like this Government to look at whether this exchange rate is good for us. I remember that His Honour the Vice-President defended the exchange rate when it was around K5.3. I would like to see the Government try to defend the current rate. I am sure that this exchange rate is bad for people who have children studying outside of Zambia because there is no way they will raise the money to pay school fees. Most of the children will probably come back. Is that really good for us, as a country?

Sir, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance to explain the downgrading of the country from B+ to B, C or some other grade by international rating agencies. We had gone up on the scales, but we now seem to be coming down. What does that mean? We have been told that it is just a grade that we should forget about. However, when we were at B+, everyone was rejoicing. We have also been told that investors will be scared of coming here and invest their money once we start being downgraded because these things carry with them a lot of assurances. I do not know how true it is, but we have heard that the exchange rate is plummeting because there has been a flight of dollars from our country. We need the hon. Minister to tell us what this means. We need to tell the Zambian people what is really happening in our economy or else, at the end of the year, when we do not perform, we will be the ones to shoulder the blame and be called all sorts of names. This is an opportunity for us to explain to tell Zambians what is happening to their economy.

Sir, on infrastructure development, I must agree with Hon. Mooya. The components that constitute the Vote on Loans and Investments must be given to the appropriate ministries. For example, on roads and bridges, surely, why not give them to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication? Why leave it under the Ministry of Finance whose staff may not be able to answer me when I speak but will, instead, tell me to ask the workers in the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, yet the Vote is under their ministry. Why not put these activities where they belong?

Mr Chairperson, my opinion is that it would be better to put both NRFA and the RDA under the same ministry so that it has both the financial and the implementation arms of road projects. Currently, the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication has the implementation arm, but it has problems controlling the financial arm, which falls under the Ministry of Finance. Every time the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication wants to push some project, he has to go to the RDA to find out what is happening, and the RDA has to explain to him about the NRFA not having money. That is very cumbersome.

Sir, I also think that the way the money has been distributed in this Vote is not workable. I do not the rationale behind giving K50 million to the Nakonde/Mbala Road. That road is worth K924 million, yet it was allocated only K50 million, an amount that will not achieve anything. The people of Mbala must expect nothing to be done on that road. If the road gets to be worked on, it will be only 2km or 3km, yet the road is 170km long, and only 18km has been worked on, so far. What will the K50 million do for a K924 million road? I am worried about this. The hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication should sit down with the hon. Minister of Finance to find a way of allocating more money to the project.

Mr Chairperson, the Serenje/Nakonde Road has been given K400 million, but that is nothing. That stretch is so long that K400 million will not achieve much. If the Government’s aim is to patch potholes, then, I think, that can be done but, if it is re-surfacing, then, the money will be insignificant. For that reason, I would like to talk about the consultants who approve these construction works. They must be monitored closely because I have heard complaints about poor road works, some of them blamed on the MMD, which is innocent. When the contract has been awarded, it is not the contractors who are responsible, but the consultants. The contractors just do what the consultants tell them. If the consultant says that the works meet the required standard, the contractor will happily proceed with his work. If, on the other hand, the consultant says that the standard of works is unacceptable and refuses to sign the certificate of completion, then, the contractor will redo the work to the satisfaction of the consultant.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication and his technocrats should monitor the consultants, not the contractor. The consultant is the problem. It is not the MMD, the hon. Minister of Finance or the money. All those who have done consultancy work know what I am talking about because the consultant designs the road that the contract is supposed to construct and prescribes the standards to be adhered to. When there is poor construction, the consultant who approved the certificate is the one to blame.

Sir, let me end by saying advising this Government that the K20 million allocated to Pedicle Road is nothing. That road is about 87km long. Let us finish it. We can complete it in one year. We can move up to 50km with the normal unit of construction. With K20 million, however, I do not know how many kilometres will be worked on. Let us be very serious on these projects.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, in supporting Votes 21 and 37, I have some comments to make.

Sir, the 2013 Mo Ibrahim Index of African Governance rated us 12th, and we score 59.6 per cent. I also checked our standing on rural infrastructure. Our score was 36 per cent, which is quite low. With the way the PF Government is handling investment, I see our grade deteriorating from 36 points. I am saying this because we have not seen much investment or infrastructure development in the rural areas by this Government or the previous ones. Misplaced priorities and a lack of planning are killing us under the PF Government. The lack of planning, such as the unplanned creation of so many districts and initiation of infrastructure development projects by the President has put a lot of pressure on the hon. Minister of Finance. This has forced the hon. Minister of Finance start doing what the President wanted done. We have seen the ground-breaking ceremonies for Chalimbana University and Mongu Stadium but, to date, nothing has happening on those projects. The projects are huge and needed to be planned for. The President is decreeing whatever and whenever he feels like without realising that this puts too much pressure on the hon. Minister of Finance. I think it is time we started planning accordingly. We should not have mere decrees and unplanned projects taking precedence in our country. Otherwise, we will put too much pressure on our Treasury. 

Mr Chairperson, we have seen the pressure from the lack of project planning result in over-borrowing which, in turn, has led to a deficit in our Budget. I think the PF Government should start reflecting on how it is handling national issues. We know that the President is a graduate of the London School of Journalism Syndicate. That is what we are told. Therefore, he needs to help us do the right things. 

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Yes, he said that he is a journalist from the London School of Journalism Syndicate.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the unplanned infrastructure projects have caused the deficit in the Budget. My other concern is the borrowing under this Government. There is US$3 billion that is being mentioned, and we ask the hon. Minister of Finance to update us on this country’s debts, including the domestic ones. We feel that what has been provided to some sectors has not been adequate. As a result, there has been continuous borrowing, especially domestically. 
 
Mr Chairperson, let me get back to the issue of investment in infrastructure in the rural areas, which is at 36 per cent, according to the Mo Ibrahim Index of African Governance. I think that this is not being looked into. As a Member representing a rural constituency, I can say that we have not benefited much from the Treasury. All we have seen is the tarring and re-tarring of roads in towns. As I speak to you, there are no roads in Senanga Constituency that can ease the movement of rice farmers forty-nine years after Independence. Senanga has very good rice, but it does not have roads on which to transport the rice. We will soon be celebrating our Silver Jubilee of Independence, yet we still have no roads and, in the current Budget, no road that has been earmarked for construction to connect Senanga East to Luampa.  

Mr Chairperson, how can we economically empower the poor people who are in agriculture if we do not invest in the rural areas? The Western part of this country has not benefited in terms of investment in infrastructure development by this Government. Many places of the region have remained very remote and do not have anything that people can point at as having been done by the Government. This needs to change because we cannot continue with the status quo. There are many promises made by this Government on the Katunda/Lukulu Road. It was said that the road would be worked on. I do not know how many times His Honour the Vice-President has told this House that the contractor was moving on site but, to date, we have not seen that happen. 

Sir, we have been told that this ministry will invest in energy so that we have enough energy for the nation and for export. It is actually very difficult to make any serious investment in Western Province because the province receives only 11kV of power. It would help if we could increase the supply of power to that province. Currently, the investors in the province are worried that have gone to Western Province are worried about the inadequate power supply in the province. It is be important for this Government to invest in the Western Province if we have to move forward, as a nation. We will not continue with the promises that keep on coming before this House about things that never get done.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the CEEF. Many people applied to have access to this money in the Western Province, but most did not benefit. I think this money has been benefiting only cadres under the PF Government. We will not grow, as a nation, if all the programmes benefit only the cadres. This is not right. If we want to invest our monies, we need to give it to people who are capable of managing small businesses, not cadres. 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, in Mongu, many of our people get nothing even after filling in the forms. So, what is it that we are giving? We come here as their representatives and we promise to give them money, which they never get to see. Should we continue to be part of those who allocate money to the CEEF when it does not benefit our people? That is not fair, and we condemn it in the strongest sense possible. We need to change and give the money to people who deserve it; those who are interested in running businesses. You cannot create a businessman from nowhere. That is why, as a nation, we are failing to produce billionaires. In the last two years, there is nothing that we can boast about. 

Mr Chairperson, some of the investments that the Ministry of Finance is pumping into parastatals is, to some extent, misplaced. We can look for private partnerships that can help us relieve the pressure on our Budget. What we have seen is that the PF Government was not ready to govern. In some areas it investing in, there is literally nothing that it will gain. It is just pouring money there instead of investing where we will have returns. So, much of the investment will dwindle. We have said it in this House before that we should look at areas where we could facilitate private partnerships. For example, we are putting our own money in the Kitwe/Chingola Road instead of investing in the rural areas where we could get some returns or where we could improve our agricultural sector by providing better roads. Why are we investing in areas where it will be easy to recoup the investments by putting tollgates, for example.

Mr Chairperson, it is very easy for any private company to work on the Kitwe/Chingola Road and be able to get its money back. Here we are putting too much pressure on our people by introducing tollgates without being very much prepared for them. In South Africa, I can move from Cape Town without paying tolls as long as I know the country well. There are alternative roads that one can use, although they are much less like the ones we have here, which are not anything to be happy about because they have potholes. So, we need to invest where we can realise good returns, not what we are currently doing. We pumped money into the ZRL, which got the money and put it in the bank. That shows that we are not ready to invest. Why not take that money and build more schools in Senanga so that pupils graduate from there and become the doctors, engineers and economists who can manage this country better? Unfortunately, with our unprepared friends in charge, this country will not develop. They were not ready, and that is why they can wake up in the morning and point at any structure and direct an hon. Minister to improve it, or start insulting hon. Ministers in public.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of loans for civil servants, it is easy for a civil servant who works at the ministry’s headquarters to get a loan, but very difficult for one in Senanga; Mataa, Sibukali, Lweumba or Mwanamwalye to do so. We want to see these loans go down to the grassroots so that they can benefit the civil servants there. The loans should not only benefit the people in Lusaka or the provincial headquarters. That is not fair. I urge the hon. Minister that we want to see a change.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the National Planning and Budget Bill. It is long overdue, and we cannot continue been told by the hon. Minister that the Bill is being prepared and money has been put aside for the programmed. The Bill should have been brought to the House by now. We will not continue with a system in which we just run through figures and approve them without any input. That system is long gone and needs to be discarded. It was only good enough for the One-party State, not a multi-party one in which people want to be involved in governance. If we will not bring this Bill, I think that much of what we are doing here will just be routine business. So, we want that Bill to be brought here, and we will support it fully. 

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge): Mr Chairperson, I stand here to debate the Ministry of Finance Vote and support it on behalf of the people of Nchelenge. 

Mr Chairperson, let me start by commending the staff at the Ministry of Finance together with the hon. Minister for the effort they are making in improving the management of public finance as well as the economy. The efforts I refer to are in terms of the allocations in the 2014 Budget. This is, especially, with reference to the establishment of the Full Treasury Single Account, which will ensure that there will no longer be idle funds in the custody of spending agencies because it will stall the front-loading of funding requests. It will also reduce the so-called wide in-year variation of funds and, at the same time, significantly help in project monitoring and evaluation among other benefits.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to commend the Ministry of Finance for the allocation to the development of the input/output table for Zambia. The input/output table for Zambia will show the inter-relationships between the various sectors of the economy and inform sectoral interventions, for example, for purposes of job creation, which is the main focus of His Excellency the President and the PF Administration. 

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpundu: Mr Chairperson, I am equally elated at that allocation to the development of the National Planning and Budgeting Policy. We are informed that this process is nearing conclusion. This will inform the much-anticipated Budgeting and Planning Act. So, we anticipate that, with the conclusion, then, we shall see the introduction of the Budgeting and Planning Bill. 

Sir, there is some allocation to monitoring and evaluation, though little. However, it is still commendable, during the legislative meeting, we should be calling for more allocation to this function because it is very important. It is responsible for the overall performance of Government functions. 

Sir, I would also want to call for a review of the position of monitoring and evaluation (M and E) in the Ministry of Finance. It should be elevated to the level of the Auditor-General’s Office. If that is done, then, we will see a reduction in the abuse of public funds because it is a significant early warning system.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of funding to projects, we have seen the continued allocation of funds to CEEC. This is commendable. The allocation has been increased from K54 million in 2013 to K57 million in the 2014 Budget. The allocation might be marginal, but it has continued. There is continued re-capitalisation and investment in some Government institutions and this is with reference to the NHA, the National Savings and Credit Bank (NSCB), the Zambia National Building Society (ZNBS) and the Public Service Credit Union (PSCU). However, the allocation to the NHA is too little to foster housing development and reduce the housing deficit in Zambia. If the Ministry of Finance cannot directly fund the NHA, it should provide sovereign guarantee to this institution so that it can go on the market and borrow the required resources to invest in the development of housing infrastructure, particularly low cost houses. There is some allocation for the establishment of rural finance, which is a growth area, because it will greatly assist in the reduction of rural poverty. 

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I would like to commend His Excellency the President for allowing for the allocation of funds to the fisheries project in Luapula Province as well as the Western Province. This action will re-generate the fish resource in these two areas. It will also revive the fishing industry, which will significantly reduce rural poverty in these two areas. All I can do is, perhaps, urge the Ministry of Finance to allocate more funds to the fisheries project so that we can implement it with significant impact. 

Mr Chairperson, with those words, I support the Vote, once more.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. 

Sir, the first point I would like to talk about as we debate the Loans and Investments Vote is on the figures that I saw in the Yellow Book, which are alarming.

Mr Chairperson, there is K41 million for subscriptions and contributions to different bodies. Indeed, as a country, we need to subscribe and contribute but, surely, should we use almost US$10 million just for that purpose? We are a poor country and we should behave like one. 

Laughter 

Mr Mtolo: What type of budgeting is that? We need that money for water in Chipata. 

Mr Mbewe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: At any rate, with some of these organs we subscribe and contribute to, we do not use the quotas, as a country. For instance, we contribute K2.9 million to the African Union (AU). Why can we not get a credit on that by sending army personnel the way Rwanda does? Rwanda gets a huge credit. Why can we not do the same?

 Mr Chairperson, we have allocated K66 million to peace-keeping missions. What are we benefitting from this type of contribution? Give us that money so that we use it in the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. I am almost asking this lion (pointing to the lion statue in the Assembly Chamber) to eat Hon. Dr Phiri. 

Laughter 

Mr Mtolo: I do not know why it does not jump on him for not giving us money to expand Chipata Day Secondary School, where we have 150 pupils in one classroom. Why should we spend K66 million on peace-keeping missions and give the AU US$10 million? Surely, is this what a poor country like ours should do? 

I hope that the lion will eat Hon. Dr Katema as well after it eats Hon. Dr Phiri. 

Laughter 

Mr Mbewe: It should eat them with salt.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC).

Sir, when the PF Government took over office, it gave us a document, which was laid on the Table by Hon. Sichinga. However, nothing happened with regards to the list. The CEEC has not been funded and we have been told that there is now a new programme in which funding should be accessed from the Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ), yet there are people who need that money. After re-evaluation, the programme was halted. Let us not halt one programme and jump to another. Let us have continuity, and the Ministry of Finance must guide appropriately. 

Mr Chairperson, two days ago, when we were debating the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications, a question was posed about the Chipata/Muchinji Railway and the response was that the Vote for the project was under Head 21, which is Loans and Investments. I have taken time to go through this Vote to find the allocation to the Chipata/Muchinji Railway Project, but I have not seen it. If it is there, there is nothing allocated. This is an activity-based budget, yet there is nothing apportioned to the Chipata/Muchinji Railway about which I can tell the people. If I missed it, I would like the hon. Minister of Finance to educate me or, at least, the House on how much money has been allocated to the operationalisation of the Chipata/Muchinji Railway. How can we sit here, year in, year out, talking about a rail line that was commissioned a long time ago? Surely, the hon. Minister of Finance should be a bit more committed to some of these projects that have taken a lot of money from the poor people of Zambia. 

Mr Chairperson, I have the right to demand to be told how much money has been put aside for the Chipata/Muchinji Railway. I also ask all my colleagues in this House to inquire into what is happening with this project. We cannot have it be a white elephant forever. 

Sir, the Great East Road is receiving some attention. There are three contractors mobilising on site to begin works. However, the hon. Deputy Minister for the Eastern Province, Hon. Sichone and I have been asking for a deviation on the single lane near Musekela Turn-off.  The lane should skate around the town and join the Great East Road at some other point to avoid the many deaths that we keep having on it. All we need is a very small amount to vary the project. I ask the hon. Minister of Finance to look at this before the contractors start working. I know that Hon. Sichone went to see Mr Mushota at the RDA, but was told that it was too late to vary the road. We are the people who make laws and sign contracts and we want to have a deviation of the Great East Road because many people are dying. There is just one single lane from here all the way to Malawi. Can there be a detour so that the many trucks that use the road can go through the dry port. I cannot over-emphasise this, and I know that my hon. Minister is listening. Therefore, we must push this because this is the time for us to have the job done. 

Mr Chairperson, I have looked at the figures here and K17 million has been allocated to Mfuwe Road. If it is true that 1km of road costs K1 million to build, as I have been guided by engineers, then, only 17km of that road will be worked on, yet we need to finish this road because it is an asset to this country. It is useful to Hon. Masebo’s ministry and to all of us because it leads to one of the best national parks in the world. How can you only allocate it K17 million? 

Finally, Sir, the Ministry of Finance should take responsibility and punish hon. Ministers who do not use their allocations. We sit here to apportion monies that hon. Ministers do not use. That is absolutely wrong. Currently, there is money in the Treasury that has not been used by some ministries. 

Dr Phiri interjected.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, can this lion eat Mr Phiri, who is continuously disturbing me.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Phiri! 

Which Mr Phiri? Do you mean the hon. Minister? 

Mr Mtolo: I mean Dr Phiri, the hon. Minister, Sir. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

This lion cannot eat him because it is not alive, and you should not encourage it to eat him ...

Laughter 

The Chairperson: ... because he is listening very attentively. 

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: In conclusion, Sir, we need erring hon. Ministers to be punished for not doing their job. There is no obligation on hon. Ministers to use the money that is allocated to them. We suffer to get monies, through loans and grants, only for the money to be returned to the Treasury. We should not allow this.

Mr Chairperson, with those very few remarks, I am at pains to support this Vote because there is nothing for the Chipata/Muchinji Railway.  

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate this Vote. I also thank my colleague for saving time. 

Sir, I want to start by emphasising the fact that this ministry has a mammoth task. It is at the hub of national planning and budgeting and has the heavy responsibility of ensuring that economic growth is sustained and increased to foster development in the country. This ministry is an important one. I saw a clip on television which showed that, when the Cabinet sits, the hon. Minister of Finance is next His Honour the Vice-President. Basically, the hon. Minister of Finance is the Prime Minister. 

Mr Chairperson, we have some concerns. Our resources are being spread too thinly to the point where the development agenda is not having an impact. This ministry must begin to focus on key areas of our development agenda. There is a problem currently because there are too many ministries in the country, which makes it very difficult for the hon. Minister to apportion resources. For sound economic management, ideally, we were supposed to have very few ministries. With too many ministries and each of them trying to be relevant, it is important to put sealings on some of them so that we can concentrate on the economic ministries. 

Mr Chairperson, for example, the allocation to agriculture in this Budget is 7.2 per cent, yet we say that agriculture is a priority sector, as stated in the Vision 2030 and other national development plans. That is a contradiction. Sixty per cent of our people live on agriculture. Today, the hon. Minister of Agriculture is really struggling to provide services to our farmers; to those engaged in fisheries, crop farming or keeping livestock.

Mr Chairperson, we need enough money in the economic sectors, namely, agriculture, energy, tourism and works. That is where the actual development takes place. If this economy is to grow, we need to invest more in the economic ministries, yet only 28 per cent will go to those ministries in this Budget. What growth can we achieve with the 28 per cent? That is why the economy is not growing fast. Currently, Zambia has a wonderful window of opportunity. We have fairly good weather, land, minerals and the metals are selling very well on the world market. We have everything. The hydro power potential in this country is very high. All these things are to our advantage, but the money is being spread to too many areas that do not add value. For us to drive the economic and development agenda of this country forward, let us single out the key areas where money must be directed. Of course, we will have to cater for a few social sectors, which we already know.

Mr Chairperson, last week, for example, I debated on several ministries and said that some of them deal with policy issues. They must, at all costs, reduce on programmes that cloud out allocations to the economic ministries. Currently, we have load shedding in this country. Last week, I was passing through Kafue and people were looking for crushed stones. So, they went to the quarry, but could not buy the stones because there was no power. Production actually stops when there is no power and there are many industries shutting down. Why can we not put enough money into power generation so that we can have enough power for our domestic consumption and for export in the next few years? The export market for power around the region is beckoning. 

Sir, let us put money where there are high returns. That way, we can also create jobs. The power outages are also hampering the employment creation potential of the economy. They make people incur losses and, when that happens, businesses cannot employ many people. I think that the hon. Minister of Finance must tell the President that the ministries that may have very strong connections to the President must not lobby for the allocation of funds to activities that do not add value to the economic agenda of this country. We need a sealing on the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting; the Ministry of Gender and Child Development, which is only concerned with policy issues; the Ministry of Youth and Sport; and the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, which just monitors issues, so that we take the money to development projects.

Mr Chairperson, on the Planning and Budgeting Bill that is envisaged, I am very happy that we are making progress on this aspect. The last two days, we have been meeting at the Government Complex to input into the planning and budgeting policy. The process is unfolding very well and important issues are being captured. We hope that the Bill will be brought to this House latest in the next meeting of this House.

Mr Chairperson, this House must move, like my colleagues have indicated, from merely approving allocations because of time limitations. It must assist or compliment the Executive and be relevant to the country. We must also make reforms here so that this Parliament adds value to the budgeting process. Currently, there is very little that we can do here because of the brevity of the time available. If we change some figures in this Budget, it will just confuse the whole Budget, and we do not have enough time to clean up the whole document. However, in the envisaged Planning and Budgeting Bill, this Parliament will have to have two sessions for the Budget. We will need the first session to deal with the indicative Budget, which will, then, be sent to all sector Committees. The Committees will, then, make their proposals, which will be consolidated in a report that must go back to the Executive while Parliament should adjourn. Later, we can come back and approve the final Budget, in which some concessions will have been made. Maybe, we can help the Executive to clean up some of the expenditure lines that do not add value. We can help it to review and, if necessary, re-assign some allocations, for example, from one ministry to the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. We do not need each ministry to improvise programmes for them to justify their existence and be allocated money, and we say that it deserves more money. That money could just be going to waste.

Mr Chairperson, even in this House, the Standing Orders will have to be amended for us to attune ourselves to the expectations of the people in budgeting and planning so that we can add value to the processes. When we sat in your Expanded Committee on Estimates, we received wonderful submissions from the stakeholders, which will just be shelved because we cannot meaningfully change what is in the Yellow Book. That is why this Parliament must sit four times and…

Mr Chisanga: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chaisanga: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. 

Sir, I have been in this House for close to eight years now. I have seen Budgets come …

The Chairperson: What is your point of order? Do not debate.

Mr Chisanga: … and go. 

My point of order is: Are we in order to go on debating the Budget when nothing will be changed about it? Why can we not simply adopt that Budget and serve the money.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Which money?

The Chairperson: Yes, we are in order.

May the hon. Member who was on the Floor continue.

Mr Hamududu:  Mr Chairperson, I think that people expect a lot from us. 

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Hamududu: We should begin to pass the Budget, not for it to pass through this House as insinuated by my colleague. 

Mr Chairperson, one of the two last issues I want to mention is that our economy can only grow and the living conditions of our people improve under an environment of sound economic management. The fiscal space we currently enjoy cannot add value unless we adhere to sound economic management in terms of the structure and size of the Government, and we have been talking here, year in, year out, that this Government must be re-structured in frame and size. If that is not done, even if the mines paid all the taxes that we want, that money will be swallowed by the wrong structure of the Government. This Government is abusing the fiscal space it inherited from the previous administration by experimenting on many issues and running a Government with a wrong structure that is bloated at the top.

Some people think that we are poor because there is little tax revenue going into the Treasury, that is not so. The Budget has doubled, but there is nothing really changing at the grassroots, our farmers are not receiving the right support, our councils are insolvent, our children do not go to school and the pass rate in schools is pathetic. Over the weekend, I went to a school for a meeting and observed that the results for Grade 7 and 9 pupils were very bad. Further, the health facilities across the country are so bad that we must now get concerned about the quality of services in our Government. 

Mr Mwaliteta Interjected.

Mr Hamududu: It is worse where you come from because you do not visit your constituency.

Mr Muntanga: Who?

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, the Zambia National Education Coalition (ZANEC) reports that the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education had to lower the pass rate for sciences last year because of poor results. Basically, our children failed mathematics and science subjects last year.

Mr Mwaliteta Interjected.

Mr Hamududu: You are just talking like that because you are a member of a political party. The people are suffering out there.

The Chairperson: Order!

Can you address the Chair.

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them!

Mr Muntanga: Which ones?

Mr Hamududu: Those ones.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Let me leave them alone and face you. They are just detractors.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I wish to talk about is that the results from this Budget. We have been calling for a performance-based management in the Government, but this Government is unwilling to act, maybe, because it has wrong people in positions. If the performance-based management system is introduced, most of those people who have been put in some positions, some of whom are related to the leaders in this Government, will lose their jobs. We need people who will deliver. Therefore, the issue of performance-based contracts must be introduced in the Government. Each worker must have a performance-based contract. Those who fail to reach a specified performance threshold must go out so that we begin to receive good services and our children begin to pass at school. People should receive good health services, our road network must be good and our councils revitalised. Then, we can also fight corruption. We can sit here and bring reports to the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) but, as long as the people who are not performing remain in their positions, especially those who are compromised, we will not go anywhere. The performance-based management system is the best way of removing non-performers.

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Hamududu: Finally, Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the issue of parastatal companies. It is high time we stopped pumping money into parastatals that are in lucrative businesses. Our people want money for development. Therefore, we cannot continue pumping money, for example, in Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL) or Tanzania-Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA). For that reason, I urge this Government to bring back private-sector participation in the parastatal companies. We are denying our children the education, health and infrastructure services they need because of pumping money into these bottomless pits. 

Sir, why should the National Housing Authority (NHA), which is in the lucrative real estate business, continue lining before the hon. Minister of Finance to ask for help when other companies that came into the country to do the same business are making money? Perhaps, what your colleagues in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) did to partially privatise some companies was the right thing. For example, you no longer pump money into the Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) but, instead, you line up to receive dividends. You should return ZAMTEL to being run by private investors. It picked up when it was in private hands but, today, there is congestion on its network and people are leaving it because of the poor service. The partial privatisation of ZAMTEL must have been sustained. If you want to protect the national interest, there are ways of safe-guarding. Currently, people who were with ZAMTEL when it was doing well are migrating back to Airtel and MTN because of the congestion.

Mr Muntanga: They do not understand.

Mr Hamududu: The role of the private sector is very important in this process.

Sir, I heard the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications say that the Government would introduce a national airline. Please, invite the private sector to participate in this venture. Many countries, such as Malawi and Namibia, that even have good tourism are struggling. Every year, they are bailing out their national airlines. In this country, where we have low tourist figures, it will be suicidal to open an airline. It is just rhetoric. Bring in the private sector to fly the national carrier. Otherwise, we will be sitting here to talk about bailing the national airline out. So, we must be very careful with these parastatal companies because, if we are not, we will deny our people the development that they deserve in this rich country that God gave us.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to debate on this Vote.

Sir, let me begin by commending the hon. Minister of Finance for having listened to our debate in last year’s session. In last year’s debate on the Floor of this House, with specific reference to the role of the Ministry of Finance as the co-ordinator of our development process and the manager of our money, we stated that there was too much money going to hon. Ministers’ offices, which could have gone to developmental projects. The hon. Minister listened and we have a difference this year. Let me just cite a few figures. The allocation to the Office of the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art has been reduced by K1,045,800 to K135,550; the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection’s allocation has been reduced from K1,500,399 to K300,000; the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock’s allocation has been reduced from K518,665 to K170,000 while that of the hon. Minister of Defence has been reduced from K193,235 to K137,305. These are big savings.

Mr Chairperson, the reductions in the allocations to hon. Minister’s offices is illustrative of the importance of the Executive listening to our debates because what we say on the Floor of the House are issues that our people raise as their concerns. If think that the Executive should listen and implement what we advise because our role is to provide oversight on the Executive. I do not know what criterion was used to make the reductions in the support to hon. Ministers’ offices from higher to lower levels but, whatever the criterion was, there should be a critical re-examination because the ministries are different. I do not know how the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock seated on my left will manage with a K170,000 budget while the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has a budget of K550,000. The hon. Minister of Justice’s allocation has been slashed by 50 per cent, from K500,000 to K249,000. {mospagebreak}

Hon. Minister, you have listened to our concerns and we hope that the savings from these reductions have been channelled to developmental sectors so that this move can impact on the quality of life of our people. That is how it should be. However, we have seen allocations for hon. Ministers to visit their constituencies. That is definitely not right. The allocations are there, and I can name the ministries if you want me to do so. However, if you check in the Yellow Book, you will find the information I am talking about. However, visiting constituencies is not a developmental activity, per se. There are ways of facilitating the hon. Ministers, but this one is not right.

Mr Chairperson, there is also need to standardise. In some ministries, the allocations to the Permanent Secretaries and hon. Ministers are combined. We want to see the differences in terms of how much support goes to the Permanent Secretary and how much goes to the hon. Minister. The two allocations should be separated like it has been in most ministries. There is a ministry or two in which the two have been combined.

Sir, another point I would like to focus on is on the interface between what we do in the budgeting process and the impact we expect, for example, on poverty, the development process, employment, and social services. How, for example, does what we do on the roads, railways, the Multi-Facility Economic Zones (MFEZs), power stations, bridges, and farming blocks impact on the critical issues of our developmental challenges, such as extreme poverty? We do not even seem to see any linkage between what we do, for example, in the capital projects, and the vision and development plans of the country. We are simply groping in the dark, and that is not right. 

Sir, we must think outside the box and begin to be creative. We must have a development or capital budget separate from the operational budget. With the capital budget, we should be able to sit here and debate what the various capital allocations will do to the various development challenges that we face. If it is employment generation, we should debate what impact the MFEZs will have on that challenge; how do we justify the money that we allocate to the MFEZs in light of the challenge of unemployment? If we allocate money to the fisheries industry or farming blocks, what will the impact of those allocations on poverty reduction be? With that approach to our budgeting process, will be able to make all Zambians understand where we are going, and how our development challenges are being addressed by the budgeting process.

Mr Chairperson, we need to separate the development budget from the operational budget in order for the budgeting process to be meaningful, and for everybody to understand where this country is heading to. This is what other countries have done. If you go to Tanzania and Uganda, you will find that this approach has been adopted. So, we also have to be very clear so that, whichever party comes into power, the nation will be able to know where it is going and how our budgeting process relates to the national development plans and to the Vision 2030. That is how Kenya has been able to make major strands in realising Vision 2020. Botswana and Tanzania have been able to realise their national development visions. However, in our budgeting process, how are we doing it? How do we link the whole budgeting process to the Vision 2030? The answer is we do not. So, our officials must begin to do things differently.

Sir, I fully agree with my colleagues that we need a planning and budgeting framework. The national planning and budgeting policy, and the Act should be in place to effectively guide us in our budgeting process. Once we have that in place, we should be able to see the country move forward. We should be able to see in the development budget how extreme poverty is being addressed in areas like Luapula and the Western Province, whose poverty levels are at 64 per cent. 

On roads, Sir, we should not even be quarrelling over which area should get a larger share of the Budget. Instead, we should be able to agree on what areas to prioritise over a period of time, say, two or three years. Currently, we do not have that direction, which is unfortunate. I hope that our colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance, the senior among equals in the Cabinet, will be take this advice and do things differently. He should challenge the technocrats to think and act differently in order to move our country forward. We want to see Zambia move forward and achieve significant development within the shortest possible time. We can do it. If others have done it, why can we not when we have the resources? All we need is effective leadership.

Mr Chairperson, our colleagues from Luapula Province should not be depressed by the remarks that were made because, as hon. Members of Parliament, you cannot take development to your constituencies working as individuals. The development will have to come from the national cake. So, do not be depressed, but continue to work. Continue to see what you can do by lobbying amongst yourselves for the development needed in your constituencies.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Mr Kapeya rose.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, wind up the debate.

Mr Kapeya resumed his seat.

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, let me begin by thanking all the hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to this Motion in support of my Ministry’s Budget, beginning with Hon. Mooya and ending with Prof. Lungwangwa.

Sir, it will not be expedient for me to respond to each hon. Member who has contributed. Suffice it to say that we have listened very attentively to the contributions that have been made. My colleagues and I have taken note of your contributions, and I assure you that, as we go back to our offices, we will seriously consider them.

Sir, may I also take this opportunity to remind the House that the substantive hon. Minister of Finance has repeatedly said that the doors of his office are wide open for engagement with hon. Members who so wish. So, I appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to continue engaging us so that, together, we can resolve the issues that affect our country. Having said that, let me comment on two or three issues. 

Sir, the first issue I would like to address is that of the credit rating of the country. I wish to correct the record by saying that we still have a B+ rating. It is only the outlook that was downgraded. So, it is important that we do not mislead the nation with incorrect information. The second issue I wish to comment on is the planning and budgeting policy, which is very dear to the hon. Member of Parliament for Bweengwa, my brother, Hon. Hamududu. My position is that belabouring this point is pushing an open door. This Government is committed to ensuring that the Planning and Budgeting Bill is brought to this House. Our wish is to bring it in the next sitting of Parliament. As stated already, there have been on-going consultations in the last two days. It is hoped that the draft policy will be concluded and, thereafter, submitted to the Cabinet for approval. When that is done, a road map for presenting the Bill to the House will be drawn.

Mr Chairperson, on the issues raised on the CEEF, I want to assure this august House that answers are in the policy statement of the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry. When the hon. Minister presents his ministry’s budget, hon. Members’ questions about what happened to the fund will be answered.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 21/01 – (Loans and Investment – Ministry of Finance – K7,766,238,305).

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, on page 436, I have no problem with the figures, but I just want to make some corrections to the names of the roads. They are Kaleya, not Kaseya …

The Chairperson: What programme are you looking at?

Mr Mulomba: Programme 3097, Activity 110¬ – Road Improvement Works Under Rural Transport for Poverty Reduction in Mazabuka District: Kaseya-Mukunyu Road (D676; 10.2 km) and Mukunyu-Itebe-Mbalanganda Road (B56; 16.8 km) (25) ¬– K307,240. I am sure that you are all there now.

The Chairperson: Yes. Continue, please.

Mr Mulomba: The names of the roads are not Kaleya and Mukuyu, not Kaseya and Mukunyu.

The Chairperson: Okay, that is noted.

Vote 21/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 20 – (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – K537,872, VOTE 29 – Ministry of Local Government and Housing – K883,124,488 and VOTE 25 – Local Government Service Commission – K6,768,827).

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Kabanshi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to present the policy statement in support of the 2014 Budget Estimates under Heads 20, 29 and 25 for the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. 

Mr Chairperson, in order to appreciate the estimates for my ministry, which are about to be debated, it is important that the hon. Members are reminded of the mandate of the ministry, which is:

“To Promote a Decentralised and Democratic Local Government System and Facilitate the Provision of an Efficient and Effective Delivery of Quality Housing, Infrastructure and Social Services for Long-Term Sustainable Development.”

 Mr Chairperson, in 2014, my ministry will endeavour to …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Mrs Kabanshi:  … accelerate the implementation …

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister. 

When I say call for order, I am helping you. We need order, particularly amongst the people behind the hon. Minister on my right. She cannot be heard. So, consult quietly. 

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mrs Kabanshi laughed.

Laughter

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, in 2014, my ministry will endeavour to accelerate the implementation of on-going programmes and projects and add value to the principles of good local governance and infrastructure development, and offer quality leadership to local authorities. Infrastructure and housing development, water supply and sanitation, road networks, markets and bus stations, and fire and rescue services are central to effective provision of municipal services and the overall national agenda of sustainable social-economic development and poverty alleviation. The ministry is key to facilitating the delivery of municipal infrastructure development aimed at improving the lives of the majority of our citizens. Infrastructure development is key to achieving the national vision of developing Zambia into a prosperous middle-income nation by 2030.

Mr Chairperson, the provision of clean and safe drinking water, and better sanitation services is central to the well-being and productivity of citizens. It is for this reason that my ministry facilitated the construction and rehabilitation of more than three thousand water points, boreholes and hand-dug wells, through the National Rural Water Supply and Sanitation Programme (NRWSSP), from January, 2012, to October, 2013. It further facilitated the construction of ten piped water supply schemes, which have the capacity of servicing more than one thousand people each. In 2014, my ministry also intends to facilitate the construction of two thousand new boreholes and implement fifty piped water supply schemes. This intervention will lead to increased access to clean water and reduce the distance to water points for our people in rural areas. 

Mr Chairperson, you will recall that, when the Patriotic Front assumed power, one of the measures it took was the up-scaling of grants to water utility companies to improve the provision of water supply and sanitation services in urban and peri-urban areas. My ministry is implementing a National Urban Water Supply and Sanitation Programme (NUWSSP), which is a national road map aimed at achieving universal access to clean and safe drinking water and better sanitation services. This programme is being supported by both the Government and our co-operating partners. In addition, the Government signed a US$355 million grant agreement with the American Government, through the Millennium Challenge Corporation (MCC), for the Lusaka Water Supply and Sanitation and Drainage Project (LWSSDP) aimed at improving water supply and sanitation services, and drainage in Lusaka. 

Mr Chairperson, the challenge of providing clean water and better sanitation services in our country is huge due to many years of inadequate investment in water supply and sanitation infrastructure against the backdrop of a growing population. It is for this reason that the PF Government has prioritised water supply and sanitation in national planning and resource allocation. To provide a clear guidance to the sub-sector, my ministry is currently facilitating the development of a National Water Supply and Sanitation Policy. 

Mr Chairperson, a good road network is the backbone of sustainable development. My ministry, through the local authorities, has embarked on the construction and rehabilitation or maintenance of feeder and township roads to improve access and mobility in both rural and urban areas. This programme will result in 1,300km of feeder roads and 2,700km of urban roads being improved and maintained over the next two years. The road projects have created employment opportunities for our hardworking youths countrywide. This is in line with the PF Manifesto pledge on creation of jobs for our people. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is constructing low and medium-cost housing units in all provinces to improve access to descent accommodation. This is important, especially, for the workers who will be posted to new districts as we implement the National Decentralisation Policy, which has resulted in the creation of new districts. So far, my ministry has signed contracts valued at K73 million for the construction of 180 medium-cost housing units in seventeen selected newly-created districts.

Mr Chairperson, we realise that the deficit of housing stock is huge and requires equally huge investment to be sufficiently addressed. My ministry will promote public-private partnerships (PPPs) in housing development in line with the PF Government’s policy of promoting the participation of the private sector and the corporate world in national development, through accelerated infrastructure development. Further, my ministry has embarked on a review of the 1996 national housing policy to bring it in tandem with modern developments. My ministry is also developing the National Urban Policy (NUP) to guide urban development. This is being done with the support of the United Nations (UN) Habitat, my ministry is also.

Mr Chairperson, one of the municipal services that had almost collapsed in the recent past is the provision of effective fire and rescue services. This sector has been grossly neglected in national planning and resource allocation, yet it is critical to saving property and life. The PF Government, through my ministry, is revamping this vital sector. To that effect, it has, in the past two years, bought and distributed fire tenders and hydraulic rescue equipment for local authorities to enhance their capacity in discharging their functions. My ministry, through the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC) has, so far, recruited 399 fire-fighters and deployed them to various fire brigades in the districts. The rehabilitation and construction of fire stations is on-going, as part of our decentralisation of fire and rescue services to improve response time in times of emergencies. I have directed all water utility companies to ensure that designs for water supply networks always include hydrants while the existing hydrants should be kept functional to enable fire-fighters to access water for effectively fighting fires. My ministry will continue the construction of fire stations and sub-stations in 2014, and has already awarded contracts for the construction of three sub-fire stations in the city of Lusaka to three companies at K8.7 million in order to improve the response time during fire and other emergencies. To improve co-ordination and proper guidance in the sector, my ministry is facilitating the development of National Fire and Rescue Services Policy (NFRSP).

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will review the Local Government Act, Cap 281 of the Laws of Zambia in order to establish a system of local government that will promote local economic development and lead to improved delivery of essential infrastructure and other services, through local authorities. In this regard, my ministry will also start the process of developing the Local Government Policy (LGP), which will, among other things, address issues of performance standards in councils.

Mr Chairperson, the Government intends to enhance accountability, transparency and good governance at the local level by improving financial management systems. In addition, my ministry and the Ministry of Finance will undertake a comprehensive revenue assignment and inter-governmental fiscal transfer system study that will take into account the revenue and expenditure assignment so as to address the fiscal gap in local authorities.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will introduce a performance assessment system in councils as one of the key elements in determining the allocation of grants. The performance assessment system will help councils to improve their performance in the areas of accessibility and sustainability of public goods and services. My ministry will also introduce performance contracts of principal and chief officers as another strategy aimed at contributing to effective service delivery in councils.

Mr Chairperson, in order to improve financial management and accounting in councils, the Government will continue to roll out key planning and budgeting reforms involving the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF), Activity-Based Budgeting (ABB) and other financial management systems in councils. This will improve the financial management system for the Public Service as a whole. My ministry is currently rolling out the MTEF and ABB and other financial management systems to sixty-six councils as a way of improving financial reporting in councils.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is also in the process of reviewing the Rating Act, Cap 192 of the Laws of Zambia so as to enhance the revenue base of local authorities. The Government intends to improve and strengthen the local authorities’ revenue system, especially for the rural councils. Further, it has commenced the process of addressing the deficiencies in the local tax structure, such as the property tax, enhancing the efficiency of the local tax administration and to promote local authorities’ revenue autonomy.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, the Local Government Training Institute (LGTI) contributes to the realisation of the ministry’s mission by building the human capacity of local authorities for improved service delivery. My ministry intends to rehabilitate the institute’s infrastructure with financial support from the Germany Development Bank in order to improve the environment for both trainers and trainees. It also intends to improve the human resource capacity of the institute to enable it deliver effectively on its mandate. The institute will also benefit from the capacity building resources allocated to the Decentralisation Secretariat.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is committed to decentralisation, through the devolution of power from the centre to the local authorities, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mrs Kabanshi: … including our traditional authorities. The Government has lived up to that commitment with the Cabinet’s approval of the Revised National Decentralisation Policy skewed towards the realisation of the vision of the PF and strengthening of local government, as stipulated in the party manifesto, which was launched by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, on 16th July, 2013.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

My right, please, can you be orderly. That is indiscipline, actually. The hon. Minister is making a policy statement and you are consulting loudly.

Can you continue, hon. Minister.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, in this regard, the Government will enact the Local Authorities Finance Act so as to strengthen accountability in local authorities. The Local Government Act and other local authorities regulations will be revised and updated to make them consistent with the Government policy’s on expenditure assignments, local government revenues and inter-governmental fiscal transfers, as stated in the Revised National Decentralisation Policy.

Mr Chairperson, most cities and towns in Zambia have no Integrated Development Plans (IDPs) to guide development as the existing master plans are outdated, resulting in haphazard development activities. Integrated urban development is key to strengthening the contribution that cities and towns make towards economic growth, social development and the alleviation of poverty. Moreover, it seeks to develop and promote appropriate policies and tools for land management, infrastructure development, municipal finance and urban development. The IDPs are prepared in line with the Town and Country Planning Act, Cap 283 of the Laws of Zambia, which is in the process of being replaced by the Urban and Regional Planning Bill. My ministry will embark on the phased upgrading of unplanned settlements and urban renewal across the country to improve the living environment of unplanned and peri-urban settlements. In addition, it will scale up financial support for preparation of IDPs in both old and new districts, whose number will be increased.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is in the process of developing an effective Urban Development Policy (UDP), which will set out the vision and programmes aimed at meeting urban development challenges in the short and medium term. In line with the Government’s overall development agenda of equal opportunities for all, my ministry has ensured that the allocation of resources in the 2014 Budget reflects the priority placed on …

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that my ministry has ensured that the allocation of resources in the 2014 Budget reflects the priority placed on programmes and activities with the greatest impact on the majority of the people and, indeed, bias towards the poor in line with the Government’s overall developmental agenda of equal opportunity for all, 

Sir, the main objective of the LGSC is to ensure that employees in the Local Government Service exercise their duties in a professional, diligent and meritorious manner so that the councils, which are the primary actors on the ground responsible for the implementation of national policies, deliver the necessary social services to the citizens of Zambia. In order to achieve this objective, the commission made various appointments and transfers of principal and chief officers in city, municipal and district councils after, first and foremost, critically establishing the skill requirements of each council and placing officers where they are most needed. The professional conduct of officers in the councils was also evaluated. Where it was thought necessary, some officers were transferred in order to move them away from the councils where they had built networks that were a breeding ground for misconduct. Other transfer cases were as a result of the need to address the weaknesses of the past, when local authorities had the power to appoint and dismiss. It must be noted that, due to our political and cultural landscape, whereby we have some tribes concentrated in definite regions, the commission found high levels of nepotism in some of the councils. That had to be rectified in order to support national unity.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chairperson, on the positive side, some of the transfers were necessary in order to broaden the experience of officers and facilitate their career progression in the local Government Service. 

In conclusion, hon. Members of the House will agree with me on the importance of infrastructure development and devolution of functions to the local authorities, as demonstrated in the 2014 National Budget.

Sir, I appeal to this august House to support my ministry’s 2014 Budget Estimates under Heads 20, 29 and 25, respectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the Votes 20, 29 and 25, and the policy debate on local Governance by the hon. Minister. My debate will concentrate on infrastructure development, safe and clean drinking water, construction and, briefly, on the allocation to road infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister has highlighted, the Local Government Service is key, especially, in the delivery of services to the nation, especially to the rural constituencies, where we hail from. Therefore, the local government infrastructure is at the centre of our performance and development. In fact, one can positively say that the failure of local governments in service delivery would be very equivalent to the failure of the performance of the hon. Members of Parliament because most of our inputs in the constituencies go through the local governance system.

Sir, the hon. Minister has highlighted this Government’s performance and resolve to develop infrastructure as key to the development of this country.

Mr Chairperson, I am grateful that there are funds apportioned to facilitate road infrastructure development in the budget for the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. As indicated by the hon. Minister, about 1,300km of feeder roads in the rural areas and about 2,700km in the urban areas will be worked on. We will be delighted if the 1,300km of feeder roads will really go to rural places like my constituency, Kaputa. 

Sir, as we move around, especially in this year, 2013, there are some developments that we see in a number of towns and districts, especially in areas that had tarmac roads built in the past. However, even we, who come from rural places, where we have not had any tarred roads, want to see tarmacs built within our localities even if the inter-city or inter-town roads are not tarred. We should also be included in the Budget.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to also talk about the important work that this ministry does as far as water supply and sanitation, and construction are concerned. We know very well that the ministry is the one that is entrusted with the responsibility of facilitating the provisions of water sources like boreholes and wells in our rural districts. They have, probably, done well in the past, but we definitely need to see much more. One of the biggest challenges we face in the rural places is the lack of access to safe and clean drinking water. In a number of places, including Kaputa, the water is a critical factor. In fact, it also has implications for the health sector because most of the illnesses that you find in most of these places are water-related. So, if we allocate sufficient funds to the development of our water sources, then, we will definitely impact positively on the communities and improve the health of our people. The Hon. Minister has indicated that 2,000 boreholes will be sunk. That number sounds big but, when you divide it by the number of districts we have in this country, you will realise that it may not be sufficient for all of us. I hope and trust that we will see a larger number in the future so that we stop having water problems in the rural areas. We need safe and clean drinking water.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to quickly discuss the contribution of this ministry to housing development, both in the new and old districts. 

Sir, I know that part of the hon. Minister emphasised that the funds that she has been allocated will go to the construction of housing units in the new districts. However, the housing shortage is the same even in the old districts. In fact, the biggest challenge that most workers who have been transferred to the rural constituencies like Kaputa in this ministry face is that of housing. A number of them do not live in places that are conducive for them to give us the performance that we need from them. As we concentrate on the new districts, we must not forget the old ones. The housing units are still needed in all districts for our officers there to perform.

Sir, allow me to commend the PF Government …

Mr Livune: Question!

Laughter 

Mr Ng’onga: … for the decentralisation effort ...

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: ... and devolution of power, which we are able to see. Creating more districts entails that the power will be with the people, who will be able to make the decisions on matters that concern them. Councils, being primary actors on the ground, can be empowered in every way. Even the hon. Member who is saying, ‘Question!’ has been looking forward to the day when he will have a district created in his constituency so that …

Mr Livune: Question! I already have.

Laughter 

Mr Ng’onga: … the service delivery points are taken closer to the people. I, therefore, thank the hon. Minister for her effort and resilience, and hope that the newly-opened districts will perform according to the expectations of the people.

Sir, let me also talk about the involvement of the local government system in the allocation and distribution of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The implementation of CDF projects is being delayed in most places. The funds may be received in good time, but the bureaucracy that surrounds this fund has usually defeats the purpose. I know that our predecessors who introduced this fund intended to enable the hon. Member of Parliament and the local community to make quick decisions on what should be done in their constituency.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: It is a management programme, just looking at where this fund was supposed to go. There was supposed to be an office within the Government system, it could have been the District Commissioner’s (DC) Office or another office, just to account for this fund. Therefore, when the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing gets so involved in the administration of the fund that she wants to give conditions like people give things to children in the communities, then, it defeats the whole purpose.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: The administration of this fund must be reviewed. The conditions that we are given will delay the realisation of what this fund is supposed to achieve. I urge the ministry to bear in mind the fact that this fund has specific objective that it should attain. Therefore, if it is not spent within a year, it loses its meaning and purpose.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Simbao: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for the opportunity to debate the Votes for the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. I would like to debate the issue of CDF. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Sir, the hon. Minister did not spend much time on this issue. I do not know if she also faces the problems that I face. I also do not know whether my problems concerning the CDF are similar to other constituencies. However, my biggest problem is almost the same as what the hon. Member for Kaputa has touched on. It is very difficult for an hon. Member of Parliament to be of any use in the administration of the CDF. I do not know what the councils think about their role in this task. It looks like they have completely taken over the fund. Obviously, this can only happen if the ministry is encouraging it. For that reason, I feel that we should review this matter. My hope, as a Member of Parliament, is that, being the person who knows most of the problems in my constituency, when I receive the CDF, I must help my constituency resolve some of those problems.

Ms Imenda: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Unfortunately, I do not seem to have that control or power. I am not interested in being involved in the administration of the monies, per se. I do not want to sign the cheques or see the actual money. All I want is to see that the projects that I feel must be implemented in my constituency are the ones that are implemented. That was initially not a problem when the fund was introduced, but it is becoming one. The hon. Member was truly able to ensure that small problems like a blown-off roof and broken windows were worked on using the CDF. Today, it is not possible. It becomes very complicated.

Sir, we face many problems over the CDF. Many people in our constituencies still believe that an hon. Member of Parliament has a lot of power over the CDF but, when I go and sit down with the councillors and decide what we should do, like my friend from Kaputa has said, it becomes impossible for the council to release the money. I have to keep talking back and forth with the council, but it will still not release the money, and I do not understand why that is so.

Mr Chairperson, I would like us to think out of the box. If the CDF is no longer for an hon. Member of Parliament to decide how to use, then, maybe, we should take it away from the hon. Member and give it to whoever else would like to use it. In its place, this Parliament should create a fund for hon. Members of Parliament …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: … so that, when the hon. Members want to go to their constituencies, they apply for funding from this fund and are given the money to spend on small things like funerals. That is what will help us. In the way that this CDF is being administrated, it is of no use to continue to believe that it is under the hon. Member of Parliament’s control. So, I would like to say that, if the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing does not have that problem, she should know that I have it, and she must help me. I need to be in control of CDF projects. It belongs to the constituency, and it is constituency programmes that must benefit from this money. That is what I thought the CDF was all about. I do not know when the things became so bad. At least, three years to four years ago, it was not as bad as it is today. I remember that we had Area Development Committees (ADCs) that, most likely, sat with the hon. Members of Parliament and agreed on which programmes to implement. That is what was done. Now, the approved programmes have to come to Lusaka and the controllers of councils, again, will find difficulties in the proposals. I do not really know what they want to do. If the hon. Member of Parliament cannot agree with the councillor on what to do for the people, then, I do not know who should have the final say over the money. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to help me on this problem. I want her to tell me if I have nothing to do with the CDF so that I leave it to the council. Probably, then, when the people cry to me, I will know what to tell them. I tell them to ask the council and ask them to count me out.

Mr Chairperson, in short, I want to tell the hon. Minister that there are many problems that we have, as hon. Members of Parliament. First of all, she talked about boreholes, but it would have helped if she had given an indication of how they will be distributed. We have heard of boreholes being sunk before in some constituencies while nothing has been done in others. It would be good for us to know now how many boreholes will be given to the Mbala District Council, for example, so that, when I go and visit the constituency, I will be grounded in facts and be able to tell the people the number of boreholes we have been given, instead of just speculating and having problems in answering the people’s questions on the distribution of boreholes. We discussed this at length last time. Next time, I hope that whoever will be in this Parliament when the distribution of the CDF comes, there will be equity in the distribution of these funds. This is people’s money. There should not be a situation whereby some people feel discriminated against. It was very embarrassing not only on those people who were concerned, but even on us. How can we, as Zambians, behave like that?. It should not happen like that.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to support the Vote and in doing so, discuss three issues. 

Sir, the first issue I wish to discuss is the revision of the National Housing Policy (NHP) that the hon. Minister talked about. I see that there is K300,000 in next year’s Budget for that activity. Last year, we had K200,000, and my appeal is that we let expedite the revision of the NHP because I first heard about it about three years ago, during the last Parliament but, to date, it has not been effected. We have a housing deficit that is a mountain to climb. The problem is getting bigger by the day. 

Sir, the 1996 NHP stated that there was a deficit of 840,000 and an annual building rate of 110,000 house was proposed over a period of ten years. We should have wiped out this deficit by 2006. This is 2013, seventeen years later, and the deficit has trebled to about 3 million, according to the literature I read. Let us be serious. I hope that the revised NHP will conquer this problem. I remember that the 1996 policy won an award but, today, the housing problem has trebled, and my appeal to the hon. Minister is that she comes up with very good strategies to conquer this problem. 

Sir, while still on the subject of housing, I would like to know if the houses that the ministry wants to build in the new districts will be pre-fabricated because pre-fabricated houses have disadvantages that I have mentioned before. What is important is that we use our local materials. Pre-fabricated housing is not local and, in terms of maintenance, we could run into problems. 

Sir, I also heard the hon. Minister talk about the rehabilitation of feeder roads. She said that 1,300km of roads will be worked on next year. My appeal is that her officials whip the contractors. They are not working on these roads according to schedule. I have two examples to give. In my constituency, I have the Kaumba/Ntambo and Kaumba/Muchika roads. We are now in the rainy season, but I do not know when the roads will be worked on. A contractor just dumped the gravel on 5km of one of the roads without levelling it. I do not know when the gravel will be levelled and compacted. That shows that the contractors are not serious at all. You should whip them to get them moving. On the Kaumba/Ntambo Road, there is a river and I would like the double culvert to be employed. If you use a single or box culvert, it will not work. Preferably, we need a double box culvert which, I think, would call for variations, but it does not matter because what we want is for a good job to be done.

Finally, let me talk about the CDF. The hon. Members for Kaputa and Senga Hill have already talked about CDF and the problems that they have experienced in its administration, and I think that what they have said is enough. I only wish to thank the hon. Members of Parliament who introduced the fund. I told one of them two weeks ago that the intention of introducing the fund was very good. It was purely for the hon. Members of Parliament to administer. I would like to commend Former Hon. E. Mwansa, the late Hon. Mukupa, may his soul rest in peace, …

An hon. Member interjected.

 Mr Mooya: Oh, Mr Mukupa is still alive? I think that he will have a long life.

Sir, these two and Hon. Newton Ng’uni were great thinkers. 

.Sir, between 1994 and 1995, I was taught by Hon. Mwansa. In 1996, we had the first CDF, which was just K60, and it is very interesting to see that, today, it is about K1.2 million and next it will slightly increase year. What I am trying to say is that the idea was very good, although it is now being diluted …

Mr Nkombo: Hijacked.

Mr Mooya: … and hijacked. So, I urge the hon. Minister to go back and see how this started. That way, we will improve on it.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. I will be very brief.

Sir, firstly, I want to comment on what is happening in our towns throughout the country, which is very sad.

Mr Chairperson, it is stated that cleanliness is next to Godliness. What we are seeing, I think, is an indication of what is happening in our country as a whole. The PF Government is full of confusion …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: … and it cannot bring order anywhere.

Mr Chairperson, it is very sad and embarrassing, when you walk in the streets of Lusaka, to see the dirt that is there. If you want to stay away from trouble, you should pack your car. The number of accidents that happen along Lumumba Road is very alarming because of street vending. It would be good to see this Budget consider those street vendors who are not just in Lusaka, but throughout the nation. They are also in Livingstone and on the Copperbelt. They  should be moved so that sanity is brought back to the country.

Mr Chairperson, secondly, I want to comment on the feeder roads. What is happening is not good. In our constituencies, the construction of the feeder roads has started, but the completion period takes too long because of the poor inspection by the councils. Let me give the example of some councillors in some constituencies, who have even taken advantage of the situation and, in the name of following up the contractors, have started charging the villagers K25 allegedly to use in following up on a grader. This is in a situation whereby a grader is taken to the site, but it is later withdrawn. So, I just want to state that it would be good if we built capacity in the councillors to ensure that projects move in tandem with time and as expected so that the villagers, people in the constituencies and the vulnerable could be spared from being exploited, especially by some councillors.

Mr Chairperson, thirdly, I would like to comment on the importance of water. The hon. Minister has stated that there are 2,000 boreholes to be sunk. The previous speakers have stated that these boreholes are not enough. In town, people, at least, are able to access pumped water but, in the rural areas, people have no access to water. The most affected is the girl child because she has to draw water in the morning before she can go to school. Furthermore, the girl child is even more vulnerable in the rural areas for many other things that she needs the water for. So, I expected to see a bigger budget for boreholes. 

Mr Chairperson, currently, in my constituency, there is a situation whereby Kasenengwa Secondary School has been built, but it does not have water. I have been talking to the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education about this issue, but nothing has been done about it. The girl children at that school go to the nearest villages to fetch water in order for them to prepare food in the morning and for other uses. As I said earlier, I expected to see a bigger figure for boreholes in the Budget because water is very cardinal to everyone’s life.

Mr Chairperson, still on the issue of water, there was the issue of the K1,500 that is charged per borehole. I want to attest that in Ng’ongwe Ward in Kasenengwa, we were given some boreholes by the local council but, so far, they are not working because the villagers there have failed to pay the K1,500. The hon. Minister stated in her explanation during one of the Question for Oral Answer sessions that the issue would be looked into, but she would first consider the areas where the poor people are. Let me suggest that this just be scrapped off completely because it will bring in a lot of segregation. If there is segregation in the distribution of the CDF, which is very straightforward, what more on the issue of the villagers paying the K1,500.
.
Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is very cardinal to the development of the nation because it complements many other ministries, especially the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development. It is also cardinal because everybody in this House knows that, if there is no development that reaches their area, for one reason or another, they are assured that it will reach them through the CDF. 

Mr Chairperson, we have seen segregation in the distribution of the CDF whereby the CDF is given first to the constituencies belonging to the PF. We hope that the next CDF that will be distributed will not be given in that manner. There should be no segregation. Apart from the segregation, we have seen the late distribution of the CDF. It is very unfortunate because the process involved in composing CDF committees, submitting and approving of projects and implementing by the full council is very long. Therefore, if there is segregation and late distribution, we can assure you that delivery of development will be affected. 

Mr Chairperson, I cannot conclude my debate without mentioning the CDF. This ministry should have a sober hon. Minister, who will not only look at the situation as it is, but also look to the future, knowing and understanding that this Government is not in this position for life, and that these positions can be held by anyone. The current Government might have the reins, today, but be on this (left) side of the House tomorrow. We have seen hon. Ministers who became Back Benchers in an instant. Therefore, when we …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Ms Kalima: … implement policies, …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I apologise to my good friend for raising this point of order. 

However, is Hon. Kalima in order to use the Floor of this House to attack a fellow hon. Member by saying that she is not sober and that she must be aware of the fact she will not be hon. Minister forever? Is she in order to drag the hon. Minister in her debate rather than debate issues and policies? 

I seek your serious ruling, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member debating did not single out an individual hon. Minister to the extent that a name was not mentioned. 

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: However, hon. Member for Kasenengwa, take that point of order into account as you debate. Do not bring hon. Members into your debate. Debate in a subtle way. 

You may proceed. 

Ms Kalima: Thank Mr Chairperson. Maybe, the hon. Member wanted me to mention that he is now a Back Bencher. 

Laughter 

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir. 

Ms Kalima: … these positions …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, you just made a ruling, and it is only fair that, as you sit there, you protect all of us. Is the hon. Member in order to defy your ruling and attack the hon. Member for Kabwata, who raised the last point of order. 

I seek your serious ruling and protection, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should desist from attacking other hon. Members and debate issues. 

You may continue, Hon. Kalima. 

Ms Kalima:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson. 

I was saying that we do not hold these positions in perpetuity. I will not be a Member of Parliament forever, and the current hon. Minister of Home Affairs will not be in that position forever. 

Laughter 

Ms Kalima:  Tomorrow, he might be in the Back Bench or the Front Bench. 

Mr. E.C. Lungu: What have I done?

Ms Kalima: Therefore, when we make policies in our ministries, we should ensure that they favour us in whichever position we are. We should not look at our current situation. This is what I meant, and that can only be realised by a sober mind. You need to be sober ...

Laughter 

Mr Lungu: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Member for Kasenengwa, ensure that you do not, by any means, attempt to modify the ruling of the Chair in your debate because, if you go that route I will also go the other route. 

You may continue. 

Ms Kalima: Thank you, Chair. 

The Deputy Chairperson: If you say ‘Chairperson,’ I will be happier. The chair is what I am sitting on. So, please, say, “Chairperson” or “Chairman.” 

You may continue. 

Laughter 

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, the CDF is very cardinal to the development of the nation, through hon. Members, who are called to serve the people. Therefore, it is very unfortunate that there is segregation in the distribution of the CDF.  

Secondly, Sir, the CDF is released late and, as if that is not enough, the CDF Committee has been dissolved. That is extremely unfortunate and very unfair. It only goes to show that the people who came up with these policies did not apply themselves to the situation. My advice is that, as we budget, we make decisions for the future in these positions, we remain very sober and mindful that …

Laughter 

Ms Kalima: … as the Nyanja saying goes, “Chaona mzako chapita, mawa chilli paiwe.”

The Deputy Chairperson: Meaning?

Ms Kalima: Meaning, “What happens to your friend today may happen to you tomorrow.”

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to debate the Ministry of Local Government and Housing under Vote 29. 

Sir, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and the Ministry of Finance constitute the nerve centre of any government. Therefore, the success of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing will mean the success of a particular party in the Government because it is this ministry …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The consultation on my right is rather loud. I cannot follow the beautiful debate. 

Continue, Hon. Bwalya.

Mr Bwalya: … that is particularly close to the people at the local level. That is why it is called the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Mr Chairperson, I mentioned the Ministry of Finance because the various projects and operations under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing require funding. The lamentation that has been on the Floor of this House regarding feeder roads that have been abandoned and the contractors going beyond contractual periods is as a result of a lack of funding. I, therefore, appeal to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to work very closely with the Ministry of Finance to ensure that the local people, who are the majority voters, are prioritised in project implementation. 

 Sir, the bulk of the Zambian population is in the rural parts of the country. It is there that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has a significant presence. In fact, if there is any ministry that is well-represented at the lowest level in this country, it is the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. There are district councils everywhere and structures like Ward Development Committees (WDC) and Provincial Development Co-ordination Committees (PDCCs) feed into the programmes of the ministry. There is, therefore, every reason to fund this ministry as early as possible because, if that is not done, the people at the local level will not see development in good time. Therefore, I want to, once again, appeal to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to see how best there can be synergies between the Ministry of Finance and her ministry.  

Mr Chairperson, the procurement processes and procedures in this country – and I want to believe that the issue I am about to talk about holds for other ministries – take too long. We have only twelve months in a year, but the procurement process in this country takes almost nine months. By the time to you get the contractor to move to the project site, the year would have ended, meaning that the Budgetary provisions may not be utilised. It is these processes that we need to review. If possible, the hon. Minister of Local government and Housing, again, in liaison with the Ministry of Finance, should simplify these processes and procedures to the extent that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is able to take development closer to the people early in the year.

Mr Chairperson, I know that the CDF has been discussed already, but I will talk about it, too. The hon. Minister stated that the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, who was elected by the people of Lupososhi Constituency, who sent me to this House to represent them, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Bwalya: … launched the RNDP, and that is very good. However, I want to believe that the issues surrounding the CDF, in terms of getting authority from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing for us to be able to implement the projects, is an assault …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving the opportunity to raise this point of order. 

Sir, I am listening attentively to the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi and he is indicating that the President of this Republic, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, sent him to this House, which is a clear sign that he is demeaning the people of Lupososhi, who voted for him. Is he in order to do that?

Hon. Government Members: Aah.

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that I heard him say that he was elected by the people of Lupososhi just as President Sata was, he is in order.

The hon. Member on the Floor may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your protection. 

I was saying that the issue of us or the councils coming back to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to seek approval for the implementation of projects that have been selected is an assault on the decentralisation policy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: I think that it must be stopped. I do know that people have made other suggestions, but I think that the devolution of power demands that we decentralise and give the local authorities the chance to make decisions. All we need to do is strengthen the monitoring system. Let us strengthen the management and monitoring systems to ensure that public funds are actually utilised on the intended purpose.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the issue of human resource. Yes, there is the LGSC, which is now in charge of employing people in the councils and that is very good, but the turn-around time is also worrying. When the local authority requests for a particular officer, it takes too long to have that officer recruited and sent to the local authority. This impairs the operations of the particular district council. So, I appeal to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to liaise with the LGSC to reduce the turn-around time when a request is made so that the officers who are supposed to man these offices are put in place and are manning the offices effectively.

Mr Chairperson, another issue, which is related to that of the human resource, is the fact that, in most these district councils, I hope that it is not only in Luwingu, the Public Health Department (PHD) is not functional. I think that it needs to be revived and officers appointed to man it in various district councils. It is a cardinal office and we need to have it so that it can direct the issues of health in district councils.

Sir, I recall that, previously, the ministry used to give some grants, but it has either stopped or suspended the programme. The grants included the Service Provision Grant, the Recurrent Grant and Grant in Lieu of Rates. What has happened to these rates? Councils like Luwingu District Council, where I come from, have a very limited revenue base. They have difficulties raising funds to pay workers in the scales that have not been taken up by the Central Government in terms of paying of salaries. Therefore, there should be clear guidelines and policies so that the councils know that these grants will no longer be given to them. That way, they can make alternative plans to raise revenue in order to pay the salaries of their employees who are not on the Central Government’s payroll.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of boreholes and shallow wells is another problem. This is a very big problem, but I will leave it alone. I will not go further than this. I guess, I will just follow it up with the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate the Votes of this ministry. Ordinarily, this is one of the Votes that I would have been very glad to debate and pass, especially, having spent a number of years working under this ministry. Unfortunately, as I stand here, my former ministry is a letdown in this country. If we were to rate the ministries today, it would be an example of a failed ministry for a number of factors, which I will summarise for the purpose of emphasising my point.

Firstly, Sir, it is on the matter of decentralisation. As my colleagues have already mentioned, decentralisation entails that more and more power is given to the people as opposed to the ministry wanting to grab as much power as possible from the local authorities and institutions thereunder. For example, the approval of CDF projects is a clear indication of how uncommitted this Government is to decentralisation. 

Mr Mufalali: This PF Government!

Mr Belemu: There is no way it can be talking about decentralisation yet, on the other hand, it wants to control even the simple approval of a K10,000 project in Mbabala, Katombola or elsewhere, whose names, locations and even places the hon. Minister does not even know. Of what value is it to send CDF projects to the hon. Minister’s officer for approval? Not too long ago, we received a very badly written letter in regard to CDF, which almost bordered on insulting hon. Members of Parliament …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: We threw it away.

Mr Belemu: … by stating that they have been abusing monies, yet no hon. Member has been convicted of that in a court of law.

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Belemu: Secondly, I do not know what justification the hon. Minister has, today, for the manner in which her ministry disbursed the CDF in 2013. I think that it is embarrassing that, at this stage in this country, we should be talking about what this ministry did. Statistics have been given here and they indicate that, out of the nineteen constituencies in the Southern Province, only Pemba and Sinazongwe were given the CDF. In the North-Western Province, out of twelve, only Mufumbwe, Kabompo, Ikeleng’i and Solwezi East were funded. In the Northern Province, all of them were funded, except for Senga Hill, Mbala and Lubansenshi. In Luapula, out of fourteen, thirteen were given except for the constituency represented by an MMD hon. Member. All this is happening, yet the ministry is saying that it is committed to decentralisation. We have heard that flowery language from the hon. Minister before, but that will change things. It is what the hon. Minister chooses to do in her ministry that will make a difference.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, the Executive cannot be coming here to tell us that it is committed to decentralisation and that it has done this and that when, on the other hand, when its office bearers go to their offices, they do the opposite. Ordinarily, this is a ministry that all of us should have been very happy to support because it is at the local level. However, under the current administration, we have serious problems in this ministry and the hon. Minister has done well to give us some level of commitment.

Mr Mtolo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, I apologise to the hon. Member who is debating very well. However, I rise with a very heavy heart. 

Sir, is he in order to remind us of a very sad thing …

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: … of which we had been healed, over time? Is he in order to do such a bad thing? Hon. L. J. Ngoma is in tears now.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Is he in order to remind us of how very badly the CDF was distributed?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that an hon. Member is free to debate on any topic that is close to his heart, he is in order.

Hon. Member on the Floor, you may continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, my sincere apology to my colleagues. Unfortunately, I have to be the bearer of this very bad news. I am equally at pains to debate this Vote, especially that I spent a number of years in this ministry, and I never saw the things that are happening now. It is quite shameful and unacceptable, and it should never happen again in this country.

Sir, on decentralisation, the hon. Minister has, again, spoken, using very flowery language, about how the Government has revised the NDP to align it with the PF Manifesto. I want to advise the PF Government that, when it talks about decentralisation, it should realise that it is not talking about the PF Manifesto. We are talking about local government in this country, which stakeholders must agree to, not the PF alone. For example, in my council, there is no PF member there. So, the PF wants me to implement its failed policy? How will I do that? We must have a consensus in the country to chart the right course for decentralisation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: We do not need the PF to tell us how it is aligning the NDP with the PF Manifesto. What PF manifesto!

Mr Muntanga: Failed project!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: The PF is a failed project.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I have noted, in the Yellow Book, that the PF wants to keep doing the very things that we did in the early 2000s, such as capacity building, facilitation of appointments or selection of the Aide de Camps (ADCs), which were done many years ago. You also cannot talk about decentralisation in perpetuity. We need to see concrete steps taken with regard to decentralisation and keep amassing more and more powers and authority. 

Sir, the second aspect that makes me sad is the performance of the LGSC. The hon. Minister has talked about this, how she thought that there was nepotism in the local authorities and how she wants to balance the situation. This is serious. So, we need to re-visit it. Giving us flowery talk here on the activities and functions of the LGSC will not do. The commission has now become a means for people to employ their relatives or friends and punish those they do not like. They transfer them at will, and that has even brought confusion because almost every time I go for a full council meeting, I find a new officer, because the previous one has been transferred. Every time we want to follow up on matters, we are told that the officer who was handling the cases have been transferred to another council. The Government is moving staff around every day, yet it claims to be functioning very well. Our colleagues on your right say that they are trying to do away with nepotism in the Government but, to the contrary, they are promoting it. Let us look at the officers who have been appointed and where they have been posted. This is clear nepotism. They cannot fool us.

Sir, the level of indiscipline in local authorities is very high because the LGSC is not performing its functions professionally. It would appear that there are some people who are being favoured. We have had situations whereby an officer is being disciplined in one council for a particular offence but, when they go to another council, they are promoted by LGSC. So, why does the hon. Minister want to make us believe that this commission is doing a very commendable job? There is nothing commendable about moving people who are undisciplined to another council. The Government must admit the wrong things being done and correct them. Councils are paying settling-in allowances almost every now and then because the Government is moving officers without due regard to the capacity of councils to pay this allowance.

My other serious concern, Sir, is the undue interference by the Executive in local government. For example, we are not satisfied with the reasons that have been given for suspending some councils. It has been purely for the political expediency of the PF Government. Councils are now failing to discharge their functions as provided for in the Local Government Act. Hon. Ministers also keep coming here with different statements. In one statement we will hear that the Government wants to do away with street vendors but, in another, we will be told that the position has changed and it is alright for the vendors to remain on the streets. It is not alright when you cannot even implement the very law on which local government is anchored. Therefore, how can the Ruling Party come here and tell us that it is committed to decentralisation and local government administration? That is flowery language that is not helping us.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, the other concern I have is the misplacement of priorities in this country. We have seen this ministry used wherever a by-election is pending or during by-elections to try and do some work there. That is not how local government should be administered. That is abuse and it does not help the system at all. Rushing to take a grader to wherever there is a by-election, as was done in Mulobezi, does not help the PF to gain popularity.

Sir, the hon. Minister also talked about the rehabilitation of township roads. The Government only rushes to work on these roads where it hears that there will be an election. Is that the way to run local government?

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Belemu: The township roads in Choma are not being tarred.  The people working on them are just grading them despite money being allocated for the upgrading of these roads to bituminous standard. So, which township roads have been tarred in Choma? We need the hon. Minister to tell us. Who are our colleagues across deceiving when they come here and tell us that they will pave roads? When we go to Choma, which is a provincial capital now, we find that people are still grading the roads in the town as opposed to having them tarred. Again, that is a clear example of undue political influence. Where are the contractors to tar the township roads in Choma? When did the contractor move on site? The truth of the matter is that nothing has been done.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, it makes very sad reading the manner the PF wants to administer local government. I pray that the PF Government will be short-lived …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: … so that people who are committed to decentralisation and local government administration can come in. May the days of our suffering be reduced.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

We are listening to his prayer, but I do not know whether God listened, too.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Sir, continuing my prayer, I want to say that, when talking about decentralisation, it is no use for the Government to keep telling us the same story. There are clear steps that must be taken towards decentralisation, one of which is to fund local authorities correctly. If you do not fund them adequately, there is no way you can claim to be giving power to the people. The Executive should tell us the people it has empowered. It even wants to control the little money under the CDF and hold it like an egg. Allocate sufficient resources to councils. If the PF was a serious Government like the UPND would be, money that goes to the local authorities should have been a significant percentage of the national Budget because it is meant for service delivery at local level so that the people at that level can make decisions on projects that they want to implement. If it is a road they want, they should be able to make it. If it is dam, they should be able to make decisions about it. So, even what you talked about may not help. For example, there is Statutory Instrument No.6 of 2010, which you are failing to implement. This is an SI on funding to councils for the purposes of salaries. Where is your commitment on that? 

Hon. UPND Member: Akuna. Zero!

Mr Belemu: There is no commitment to local government, which is a total confusion as we speak. It is high time the hon. Minister jacked up and believed in true decentralisation and giving power to the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Some small feeder roads have been advertised for the last two years but, to date, there has been no contract awarded. The local authorities do their initial work but, when they send it to the ministry, it is just allowed to gather dust on the shelves. 

Mr Livune: They are PF cadres.

Mr Belemu: Our application to the ministry to use the CDF was kept in the hon. Minister’s Office for months. Why? Then justifications were made that we did not receive the CDF in good time because we did not retire the previous CDF’s returns. That is being untruthful. For example, Choma Central, Pemba and Mbabala constituencies bought the same equipment and everything was done, including retirement, on the same day. However, one of these constituencies was given the CDF while the other two were not, yet the ministry talked about their having been some errors. What errors?  Let us not come here and hope that we are deceiving other people by making flowery statements. These statements you make, Madam —

Sorry, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, we have heard these flowery statements before. We are too old to fall for them. There was even heaven on earth promised by Dr Kaunda once. Those things do not move us anymore. We will only be moved when we see the local authorities performing.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I am very grateful for the time that I have been given to debate. If there is a point that the hon. Minister must go with, it is that she has to be serious and demonstrate it this time around. I do not think that we will keep sitting here while she disburses the CDF to her constituency and the constituencies of those she thinks are in love with her while we get nothing. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Vote. I would like to start my debate by on the issue of water and sanitation. 

Sir, first of all, I would like to mention that I am from a rural constituency.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left.
 
Ms Imenda: Having perused through the Yellow Book, I have seen that there is so much concentration on projects in urban areas. We, the people from rural areas, are getting a raw deal. For example, on page 487, there is no grant to rural water supply this year. Maybe, it has been put somewhere else, but I tried to peruse through and did not find it. Most allocations are to urban this and urban that. The allocation to feeder roads, in which we have all been lamped together with urban areas, is such a small amount that you just wonder whether all of it will not only go to the urban areas. We also wonder whether we, the people in the rural areas, will get anything, yet it is us who have problems of, for example, water and sanitation. I would like to acknowledge what Hon. Kalima mentioned over the K1,500 that the people have paid to have boreholes sunk in their areas. I have situations in Luena whereby people paid these amounts. Of course, there are some who have failed to pay but, even those who have managed to pay have not had boreholes sunk in their areas, and you just wonder what is happening. When you go to the councils, you get one story after another. That is very unfortunate and I would like to urge the councils that are in charge of this situation to rectify it and pay attention to our problems because our people in the rural areas are suffering due a lack of safe drinking water.

Mr Chairperson, I wish it were possible to show a video or some pictures that I took, as I went round my rural constituency, of the water that some people are drinking. It is green, has some strange organisms swimming around and jumping to and fro. Therefore, I would like to ask the hon. Minister to consider us who are from the rural constituencies, too, not just to concentrate on urban areas. Zambia belongs to all of us and we should not discriminate and just favour urban areas that already have everything. They have electricity and all these other things. Even water and sanitation, in some of my rural schools, some pumps that were installed a long time ago have broken down. I am talking about water and sanitation. Some toilets that were constructed some time back have also collapsed or filled up but, when I went to the council to try and get new ones constructed, I did not get a very good response. In fact, I got a very rude one …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education in order to keep laughing and joking with the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, who is being advised on problems of water? Today, a student has died of dysentery at the University of Zambia (UNZA) and students are rioting, yet he is seated here laughing and not bothering that there could be a serious problem now with the students rioting. Is he in order to continue behaving like that?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

To the extent that some consultations involve smiling, he is in order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You may continue, Hon. Imenda.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that some of the schools and rural health centres …

Mr Mwamba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, is Hon. Imenda, who is debating very well, in order to come into this House dressed as if she is going for a funeral?

Laughter

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member who was debating is properly dressed.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, Hon. Imenda. 

Interruptions

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that, in some of the rural schools, toilets and water pumps have broken down. However, when I approached the person in charge of these matters in the district concerning this issue, I got a very rude response. This shows that some of these people do not know what they are supposed to do.

Sir, I would also like to say something about the CDF. A lot has already been said already, but I would like to add my voice to this matter. First of all, the CDF is supposed to be for a particular year. However, if it is given towards the end of the year, then, it loses its meaning and purpose. I, therefore, suggest that the Government finds a way of releasing these funds timely so that projects can be undertaken within that year, not at the end of the year.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to add my voice to the many sentiments that have already been expressed over the hijacking of the CDF by the councils. For example, we were given guidelines on who should sit on the CDF Committee. In those guidelines, we were not told that we were supposed to have people who live near council offices so that they do not incur transport and accommodation costs. Had we been told, we would have followed that guideline. Instead, we were told that we should have two councillors, a chief’s representative and a representative from a faith-based organisation. The guidelines did not say where these people should come from. So, for some of us, the people who sit on the CDF Committee to represent the community come from very far-away areas. This is a problem, especially that my constituency is vast and there is no transport. Let me give you the example of one lady who has to walk for a long distance to attend the meetings. She starts off at 0500 hours to get to the tarred road at 1700 hours. Then, she gets on a motor vehicle to get to Mongu where she spends a night. After the meeting, the following day, she has to spend another night because there is no way she can go back immediately. However, when we ask the officers at the council to refund these people’s transport and accommodation expenses, they become very difficult. We have had about four sittings from last year, and to date, these people have not been refunded their money. 

Mr Chairperson, I, consequently, think that this hijacking of the CDF by the councils should be looked at. I urge the hon. Minister to look at this issue with her councils and try to rectify and straighten it up so that we know, exactly, what we are supposed to do, instead of the council being the ones to make the decisions.

Sir, I would also like to talk about the ‘Make Zambia Clean Campaign.’ I have seen an allocation for next year. Last year, there was also an allocation for the same, but I have not seen anything that is making Zambia clean. If anything, Zambia is getting dirtier, partly, because of street vending and, partly, because of the resistance to attitude change. I believe that, if there is money allocated to this activity, there should be sensitisation so that everybody is aware.

Mr Chairperson, I have stepped on some people’s toes because I take this very seriously. If I see somebody throwing dirt and I am behind them, I pick that dirt and throw it back into their vehicle, and they have looked at me like I am not normal.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

__________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_________

The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 22nd November, 2013.