DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBY

Friday, 22nd November, 2013

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to acquaint the House with the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 26th November, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with Questions to Ministers, if there will be any. I have signed quite many of them. So, there will certainly be some. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Votes:

 Head 33 − Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry;
 
Head 45 − Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health; and 
 
Head 78 − Zambia Security Intelligence Services in the Office of the President.

Sir, on Wednesday, 27th November, 2013, the Business of the House will begin with Questions to hon. Ministers, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Budget to consider the following Votes:

 Head 80 − Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education; and
 
Head 87 – Anti-Corruption Commission.

Sir, on Thursday, 28th November, 2013, the Business of the House will start with Questions to Ministers, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Votes will be considered:

 Head 44 − Ministry of Labour and Social Security; and

 Head 76 − Ministry of Youth and Sport.

Sir, on Friday, 29th November, 2013, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time and I will answer the questions, if there will be any.

Laughter

The Vice-President: This will be followed by Questions to hon. Ministers, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Vote:

 Head 89 − Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.
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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ZAMBIAN FEMALE CHIEFS AS ADVOCATES OF PEACE AND STABILITY

The Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Prof. Luo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to issue a ministerial statement on the programme that my ministry will embark on over the next year.

Mr Speaker, in 2011, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government created the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs to, among other things, serve as a building block for participatory governance and development between the traditional authorities and the Central Government. This emanated from the need to reform the co-existence and linkages of the dual-leadership system that Zambia has maintained since 1964 albeit with enhanced tact, refined roles and common agenda.

Sir, since its creation and, realising the fact that chiefs are custodians of rural Zambia, and to ensure a much more vibrant and vigorous performance and impact rate, the ministry has, amongst the many activities that it has conducted, embarked on programmes of value addition and focused on rural development. This is because, for a long time since Independence, the rural populace has lagged behind and not benefitted fully from the promise of development and the fruits of decolonisation. Across the African Continent, statistics of abject poverty, disease, human rights abuses, child marriages and under development are rife in the countryside, much to the detriment of the innocent women and children who are the most vulnerable. To some degree, the under development in the African countryside has been linked to, among other things, the existence of a dual system of administration of natural resources and human capital. This has led to elected administrators and authorities not to account fully for the underdevelopment of our people. Amidst this underdevelopment, there have been unprecedented levels of violence and instability among our people, who have been caught up mainly between survival and alignment to social institutions not only in the African countryside, but also society in general.

Mr Speaker, over the years, the Zambian youth has been a victim of violence. This can be attributed to the ignorant struggle on ethnic and socio-political lines. This has led to communities being branded tribal, regional or violent, and thus cannot support any form of participatory approaches to deride poverty and allow for meaningful development. This unfortunate state of affairs does not promote national building, let alone attract development to regions. As a result of this, both the constitutionally-elected regime, civil society and the traditional authorities need to come together to cleanse our society of any form of instability and instead sow seeds of peace and unity. Once achieved, the serene environment will ultimately lead to a fertile ground for dialogue and proper community participation for development in our communities.

Mr Speaker, it is the duty of all forms of leadership, that is, traditional, religious and the State, to inculcate and preserve peace in our communities. However, among these forms of public leadership, the traditional authority has an advantage that enables its effects to resonate right from the family, village, chiefdom and nation. This is because unlike all other social institutions, the traditional institution is indigenous, revered as religious and commands respect from all sectors of society.

Sir, historically, the administrative skill of traditional institutions to preserve peace and command stable communities need not be overemphasised. All across the African Continent in general, and Zambia in particular, pre-colonial records show that the institutions of chieftaincy largely managed to uphold the values of peace, especially in the interest of their communities.

Mr Speaker, what is interesting to note is that in spite of women being largely portrayed as lesser entities in the traditional African society, they played a much bigger role in ensuring peace, both within and outside their communities. It must also be understood that peace does not only refer to the absence of war or violent protests, but also the existence of an environment devoid of any social disturbances, much to the detriment of society’s happiness, growth, interaction and existence.

For example, Sir, in the past, women, through inter-marriages, brought about peace or prevented war. In other instances, a select class of women adjudicated cases and determined the royal lineage of a clan, and thus prevented succession wrangles. In the absence of war, women are always the embodiment of peace and a fresh breath of life through music and dance, caring and providing for the family, as well as teaching the young the values of society that groom all to be responsible for the community. This role of fostering peace in our society cuts across the patrilineal and matrilineal divide of traditional societies. In many Zambian cultures, women continue to play this critical role even if it is not predominantly brought to the fore.

Mr Speaker, the need for traditional leadership to preserve peace and stability in today’s world is still as important as it was when our societies were predominantly under its charge. Despite the fact that African communities are now under Republican rule, the African has not changed his/her cultural and traditional lineage. The African still belongs to a tribe, has a village, resides under a chief and upholds the progressive core values of his/her ancestral line and community. As such, traditional leaders still directly and indirectly wield a lot of influence and respect in society.

Mr Speaker, in order to make their presence known, traditional leaders across the African Continent are engaged in various sensitisation crusades on matters of health, peace, child-marriage and best practices of their customs and tradition. It is from this historic background that the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs has raised US$380,000 with the support of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) to carry out a programme that will ensure peace and unity in this country. From 25th to 30th November, 2013, female chiefs will hold a conference to advocate for peace and stability in Zambia. This programme will ensure that they interact with the other people in society that are responsible for peace building such as the civil society and the media.

Mr Speaker, the programme will also bring together the nineteen chieftainesses recognised under the Chiefs Act of 1965 as well as conduct a mapping exercise for other female traditional leaders from all parts of the country to spearhead the call for peace and unity in the country by partnering with the media, religious leaders and the civil society.

Sir, despite being the first of its kind in the history of our country, this initiative could not have come at a better time than now when the country is experiencing all sorts of evils and vices. The current despicable political violence that has been experienced in some sectors of our communities, the unfortunate calls and allegations of tribalism and ethnicity, and the ever- widening gap of poverty are all vices that should not be tolerated in our country.

Furthermore, Mr Speaker, this noble gesture by the royal mothers of our country is timely, as it comes shortly before the Jubilee Independence Celebrations. The landmark achievement of fifty years of relative peace should be the impetus for yet another pilgrimage to a peaceful centurion with blessings and counsel from our traditional leaders.

Sir, this …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on my right!

Prof. Luo: … programme will encompass a media campaign from 25th November, 2014, to the end of December, 2014, in order to reach out to the communities. The modus operandi will include sending messages through the State, community and privately-owned media houses in all the seven major languages across the ten provinces of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the messages will be delivered by the royal mothers, with no exception. The ministry has identified days of significance in the Zambian Calendar such as Women’s Day, Youth Day, Labour Day, Africa Freedom Day, Heroes and Unity Day, Independence Day, Christmas and New Year for special messages of peace and unity. As I said earlier, the American Government has given the ministry US$380,000 for this initiative. It is my hope that such partnerships with other institutions, traditional leaders and the general public will develop the country and transform our society into a safe haven.

In conclusion, Sir, I wish to call upon all hon. Members of Parliament to support this effort and respond to the calls from our traditional authorities and, indeed, many other law-enforcing organs of the country, for peace and stability. This will enable us to match on against underdevelopment, tribal tension, poverty and disease for a better Zambia.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement issued by the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. I emphasise that these should be questions on the statement issued.

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Speaker, this is a wonderful initiative that will go a long way in fostering peace in Zambia.  However, is it possible for this initiative to be targeted at the PF in order to end the on-going violence in the party?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, this initiative is targeting all Zambians. It includes the United Party for National Development (UPND), the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), the PF and the general public.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, the Southern Province only has one female chief. How, then, is the hon. Minister going to ensure that her message reaches all the parts of the Southern Province?

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, having one female chief is not peculiar to the Southern Province. Muchinga Province also has Chieftainess Nawaitwika and the Northern Province only has Chieftainess Chungu but, as I said earlier, we are now conducting a mapping exercise to identify other traditional leaders such as queen mothers, indunas or village headwomen who will participate in this programme. However, I should hasten to say that the only female chief in the Southern Province is a great woman who is so vibrant that she is capable of taking care of the Southern Province.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, across the globe, governance is moving from feudalism to modern governance and administration to solve problems related to land wrangles and conflicts emanating from boundaries, tribalism and other accompanying vices. My question is: Why is Zambia moving in the opposite direction by consolidating chiefdoms instead of dismantling them and removing tribalism, and the vices that go with it, …

Mr Mukata: Aah! Why?

Mr Lufuma: … thereby uniting the country? Why are we moving in this direction when the world is moving in the opposite direction?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Question.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, if you look at the history of Zambia, you will find that even the colonialists saw merit in working with the chiefs in Zambia. In fact, they even set up administrations around the chiefdoms to help them govern the country. One of the campaign messages in America was centred on bringing back family life and these units. So, sometimes, it is very important to interrogate some of the systems instead of just doing things simply because other people are doing them.

Furthermore, Mr Speaker, we have spent this year trying to see what is happening in other countries. We have been to Namibia and Ghana as part of our eye-opening programmes. The countries that have harnessed traditional leadership, including South Africa and Botswana, are at a totally different level in terms of development. I think it is important that we …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: … start appreciating who we are, as a country, and develop our country based on best practices.

Mr Mukata: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: During colonialism, development took place because the Colonial Government harnessed the system that you want to do away with.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has applauded the traditional authority in her speech and has indicated that this is a very important cog in the development wheel of our country. I would like to find out from her why her Government is humiliating and antagonising the Mwine Lubemba in the Northern Province to the extent that the traditional authority in that area has been undermined. How does she expect this programme to be implemented in Bembaland when the traditional authority in that area is being dismantled?

Hon. Livune: Hear, hear!

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member of Parliament that there is more than one chiefdom where there are succession wrangles. These wrangles have been going on for a long time. If you go to the archives, you will find that there have been wrangles in the chiefdom just like there are political wrangles. Leadership brings about differences of opinion. Having said that, I would like to invite the hon. Member of Parliament to come with me to the archives …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ooh!

Professor Luo: … and read about the succession wrangles. Only then will this discussion of Mwine Lubemba come to an end.

Furthermore, Mr Speaker, this Government has absolutely no role to play in these wrangles. They have never gone to Mwine Lubemba to tell them what they are supposed to do.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Livune: Question.

Prof. Luo: So, the Mwine Lubemba should be left to sort out their problems. For as long as people take particular interest and bring politics into chieftaincy wrangles, we are going to have problems. That is why, as Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, I have chosen not to comment on the Mwine Lubemba. The only time I have contributed to the discussion on this matter is when I was responding to questions here, in Parliament, but I have chosen not to speak about this matter anywhere else and left the Mwine Lubemba to sort out their problems.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is the Government’s role to recognise chiefs or to simply acknowledge them.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, the first day a question came to Parliament regarding this issue, I took the trouble to bring the Chiefs Act with me so that we could re-orient ourselves with what it says. The Chiefs Act is very clear on the process that should be followed to get a chief gazetted. I also said, in this august House, that I would follow the Chiefs Act to the letter because you, the hon. Members of Parliament, enacted that Bill. When you choose to amend it and provide me with an alternative way of dealing with chiefs, then I will follow that to the letter too.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Before we proceed, I would like to guide the House. A statement, which has a scope, has been issued. This is now time for clarification. I note that, by and large, we are veering from the statement and the assumption I will make is that there are no questions on points of clarification …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Wait, I am still speaking. If that is so, we will move on to the next segment of our business. So, please, seize this opportunity to raise questions to clarify issues on the statement issued by the hon. Minister. That is my guidance.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister …

Prof. Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, thank you for granting me this point of order and my sincere apologies to my colleague who is on the Floor.

Sir, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs in order to mislead the whole world …

Laughter

Prof. Lungwangwa: … by saying that there was development in our country during the Colonial Era because the Colonial Government worked with the chiefs? This is a remark she made in her response to a question that was raised earlier.

Sir, we are struggling with the problem of under development as a result of what the colonialists did to our country, just like Walter Roden said in his landmark classical work entitled, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa. Is she in order to mislead the nation by saying that the colonialists developed our country as a result of working with the chiefs? I need your serious ruling on this misinformation of historical facts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

My ruling is that, as the hon. Minister continues to respond to a variety of questions, she must clarify that position.

Could the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza continue, please.

Mr Mbewe: That was a professor versus another professor.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Is that a ruling?

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for a very good speech she has given in which she has talked about peace which is very important in our chiefdoms. I am a headman and I love peace.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: However, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is not her Government that is bringing instability in the chiefdoms, especially where land wrangles are concerned because it has failed to provide good maps and boundaries for chiefs. How can there be peace where boundaries have been a source of conflict?

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, as far as I know, and even from reading as far back as some of the documentation that are in the archives, the wrangles that are in the chiefdoms regarding land did not start in the two years that the PF has been in power. They were there even when the party that the hon. Member is representing was in power. This is the reason, as a Government, we would like to address all the issues to do with peace. Our initiative is to address not only the issue that you have raised, but also the many other issues that have been a source of conflict in our country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that she will be getting about $300,000 from the USAID. I believe that all funds coming from outside the country, either in the form of grants or loans, should pass through the Ministry of Finance. If this money passed through the Ministry of Finance, I would like to know why she did not mention it in her policy statement at the time the House was passing her budget. Is this something that is being done outside the Ministry of Finance?

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, if you go back to my policy statement, you will find that I mentioned the fact that we will be starting a programme that will address the issue of peace.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Thank you, Mr Speaker. It has been mentioned …

Mr Chisanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisanga: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs in order not to address the point of order raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda?

I need your ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, before you respond to the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu West, please, respond to the issue raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda.

May the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu West continue, please.

Mr Mutelo: Thank you, Sir. That money is being …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs in order not to respond to my request to clarify if the money she is talking about came through the Ministry of Finance? If it did, why was it not part of the budget that we approved? She did not answer that question.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, please, address that question as well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member for Lukulu West continue, please.

Mr Mutelo: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is really a good initiative to call upon the chieftainesses to discuss issues of peace. However, would the hon. Minister not consider including the Paramount Chiefs from areas where there are wrangles and instability in this programme? Are you not considering involving Their Royal Highnesses in areas where there is instability?

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, with regard to the issue that was raised by Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, if the hon. Member listened to my statement, I said that the colonialist recognised the need to work with the traditional leaders. They even provided administrative support to the chiefs because they saw them as important partners in development.

Sir, as regards Hon. Muntanga’s question, I think sooner than later, the hon. Minister of Finance will sign an agreement regarding these funds.

Mr Speaker, on the last question regarding whether we are considering calling upon Paramount Chiefs from areas where there is instability, it is important to have listened to my statement. We did not make any exclusion because we are addressing the issue of peace. In my statement, I talked about some of the chiefdoms where the queen mothers have prevailed over peace matters. So, the chiefdoms that you are referring to will be included and so will the country at large.

Sir, this programme is not for chiefdoms, but the whole country. Since the chiefdoms are part of the country, where there is turbulence, messages of peace will be sent and also to the country as a whole.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, we know very well that chiefs that are empowered command greater respect in communities. In the olden days, chiefs used to be a source of food, wisdom and other things that were of use to the villagers. I would like to find out if there are any deliberate programmes in place to empower chiefs so that they can command full respect among their subjects.

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, today, we are discussing a particular activity, but there are many other activities in the ministry which are going to complement the discussion on the Floor. For example, in the budget for the ministry, there is an allocation for chiefdom development. Part of this money is meant to empower traditional leaders through some training activities in leadership skills and cottage industries. With the different programmes that we are going to run in the chiefdoms, everything should fall in place.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, there is no peace in some chiefdoms because the Government has decided to selectively promote some sub chiefs to full chiefs. In view of this, how does the hon. Minister hope to have a successful programme on peace building with the chiefs?

Prof. Luo: Mr Speaker, for the third time, I am saying this programme is not exclusively for chiefs. This programme involves female chiefs, and queen mothers or village headwomen. So, if there is no peace in a chiefdom, it will also benefit from this programme. This programme is meant for all of us, including hon. Members of Parliament who are not peaceful.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

__________

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the developments in Lusaka Central Parliamentary Constituency are very disturbing. At the Kabulonga Roundabout, there is a mad man who stands at the traffic lights with a big walking stick. This phenomenon is common in Lusaka Central. Could His Honour the Vice-President, who is the Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central, tell the nation what he and the Government are doing about this disturbing development in Lusaka Central.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, fortunately, I do not know the individual being referred to. He may be a hopeful Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central. I will have a word with the Woodlands Police about it. I do not think we can extrapolate a national policy based on one incident.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, in the last two years that the PF has been in the Government, the University of Zambia (UNZA) debt has risen to well over K1 billion. Fees for self-sponsored students are rising and they are paying around K20,000 per academic year. Yesterday, the students at the institution demonstrated over the death of a first year student who allegedly died from typhoid due to the deteriorating sanitation infrastructure at the institution. However, in next year’s Budget, there is no indication that the concerns and challenges of the university are being dealt with. How do you hope to reverse the deterioration of infrastructure at the university, given that when you were campaigning in 2011, you promised to improve the welfare of the students at the highest institution of learning?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the questioner is mixing up two issues. The first one is the infrastructure at the university which, of course, has improved, thanks to the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Zone VI under 20 Games. The other issue is the allegation that the student died of typhoid which has not been confirmed. The postmortem has not confirmed that the level of antibodies to typhoid is not adequate to definitively conclude that she died of typhoid. Besides, she had just come back from Mongu the previous forty-eight hours. So, a number of interpretations are possible. I do not think it can simply be attributed to the infrastructure at the university.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: What about the related question on financial support?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the financial support is as stated in the budget that we have proposed. The whole budget has increased and I do not think any department or university has had a reduction in its Vote. We have to live within our means.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, you should restrict yourselves to one question so that as many of you as possible can have an opportunity to ask questions.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, may I have clarification on what modalities of compensation will be given to the farmers that will lose their pigs as a result of the African Swine Fever.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, let me just clear the small amount of confusion on this subject that arises from time to time. The compensation is not for pigs that died of swine fever, but for pigs that were pre-emptively slaughtered on a Government order in order to prevent further transmission of the disease. You cannot do that with human illnesses, but it is an option with veterinary illnesses. So, if somebody refuses to co-operate, like some farmers are doing, and decides to keep his/her pigs and then they all die of the swine fever, he/she does not get K1 of compensation. The compensation is for the healthy animals that are being pre-emptively slaughtered to stop the spread of the disease. It is like a fire break. If you are building a fire break, you burn it before it burns itself. This is a straightforward issue and the basis of the compensation is to pay something resembling the market price of the animal so that there is no unnecessary loss incurred. There should be no temptation for the farmer to refuse to co-operate with the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, the last time I asked a question concerning the dual carriageway from Ndola to Livingstone, I was told that the Government was carrying out a feasibility study thereon. To my surprise, I have seen the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) constructing a power line almost next to the road. May I know if the Government has changed the plan. If not, when is the dual carriageway going to be constructed to lessen accidents on this road?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as things stand, there are no firm plans.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, my question is on the Constitution-making process and the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution. There have been issues raised as regards the ten copies of the Draft Constitution to be handed over to the President of the Republic of Zambia. May I get a comment from His Honour the Vice-President with regard to what the Government’s position is on this particular issue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the famous ten copies of the Draft Constitution are for the ceremonial handover to say, “Here is the Constitution.” It does not mean that we are reneging on our promise to release the Draft Constitution before the end of this year, which is the end of next month. As far as I am aware, nothing has changed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, councillors play a pivotal role at the grassroots in our governance and development agenda. They approve plans and budgets for councils and provide oversight on programmes and projects at the grassroots. I want to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the Government’s plans are in facilitating the work of the councillors by giving them monthly allowances and transport for them to work effectively at the grassroots.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if I am not mistaken, allowances for councillors have been adjusted in the last few days. I cannot discuss the actual figures because I do not have them at hand. Maybe, the questioner would let me know what his worry is in writing so that we can see what he is actually asking about. We try to give councillors what we can for them to do their job. They get transport to work and so on and so forth.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mumba (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, what is the Government’s position on the proposed mining project in the Lower Zambezi National Park?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, an Australian company has proposed to construct a copper mine in the Lower Zambezi Game Park, but the Zambia Environmental Management Agency (ZEMA) has rejected the proposal after the environmental impact assessment was conducted. However, the company has appealed to the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection and Hon. Kalaba is currently considering the appeal as per the provisions of the law.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, the rainy season in Chavuma started in September, 2013. As of this morning, neither seed nor fertiliser has been distributed by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). When does the Government hope to distribute inputs through the FRA so that the farmers can start their farming activities?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, this question happens to be the same as the one raised by the hon. Member for Kalomo Central. Therefore, I will answer the two questions at the same time.

Laughter

The Vice-President: However, Hon. Muntanga can still ask a question on the distribution of ambulances or something like that.

The inputs are being distributed to the provinces. It is not the FRA’s responsibility to distribute them to the districts, but that of the District Agricultural Co-ordinating Office (DACO). I have the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock here and more hon. Ministers that side (referring to hon. Deputy Ministers of Agriculture and Livestock). We can look through the details and deal with that at break time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President assure this House and the nation at large the safety of the purchased maize stocks now that it has started raining, as we have seen in Lusaka.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock who, by coincidence, is seated right next to me, assures me that the stocks are safe. We are actually cutting down on the Government’s exports to some neighbouring countries because they have been importing through private channels. We do not want them to take all our maize. According to our estimation, we have got sufficient maize stocks to take the country, including Chavuma, comfortably through to the next season.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President clarify whether the wife of His Honour the Vice-President of this Republic has been appointed to a sub-committee of the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA). If so, what measures have been taken to ensure that there will be no undue influence in the decisions by ZAWA?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is actually part of the culture of some countries that when you are wearing a hat of a police officer, you behave like one. When you are wearing the hat of a cowboy, you behave like a cowboy.

Laughter

The Vice-President: When you are not wearing any hat at all, you are liable to get sunstroke and even worry the President of the country as to whether you are okay. So, my wife knows what hat she is wearing when she is working voluntarily for ZAWA because she happens to have done a lot of work for ZAWA in the past. She is very trusted by the hon. Minister to be a very useful person in community involvement with ZAWA. So, she is doing her job and is not making any money out of it, as I am sure the hon. Questioner knows perfectly well. She is a volunteer. After all, she volunteered to put me in this House at a great cost, in time and effort, to herself. Why should she not volunteer to help around the country a little bit?

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, the rains have come and some farmers who sold their produce to the FRA have not yet been paid. Since they have not been paid, it is possible that they have to go to the financial market and borrow to invest for this season. May I know if the Government will meet the borrowing costs for the farmers who have not been paid.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think that it is clear that the proportion of farmers who have not been paid is rather low. It may be high in some places like Luena because, perhaps, there is a glitch. Maybe, the FRA man for the area is sick or something. I personally do not know. However, the vast majority of people who have delivered maize to the FRA have been paid. As regards the issue of what those who have not been paid should do, I think it is much easier to pay anyone who has been left out than to enter into complicated arrangements about borrowing costs. So, I would not advise any farmer to go and borrow money on a kaloba basis in order to get inputs.

Mr Speaker: What does that word mean, His Honour the Vice-President?

The Vice-President: Kaloba is a word for a very usurious loan. The normal interest rate for such loans is hundred per cent a month.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katambo (Masaiti): Mr Speaker, while new districts have been created, older ones have remained as municipalities and others are eager to graduate into cities. Could His Honour the Vice-President highlight to this House how many of the older districts are expected to be upgraded to cities following their massive growth both in social and economic standings?

The Vice-President: It is the President’s prerogative to change the status of the governance organisational structures at local level. Therefore, I would not make any guesses about how many these are and so on and so forth.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): I thank you, Mr Speaker. Your Honour the Vice-President, we have seen a massive increase in personal loans from the banking sector. Against that background, we have an imminent wage freeze and an inevitable rise in inflation, meaning that in two years’ time, people’s disposable income will effectively be reduced by 20 per cent. Further, the Government is also borrowing massively, meaning that people’s access to personal loans will also be reduced. May I know the measures that the Government has put in place to ensure that people continue sustaining their lives at the same level in the next two years so that the food riots that we have seen elsewhere do not occur in this country.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the increment given to public workers recently at the lower echelons to the kind of people who you might expect to riot over food, for example, is enormous. This is where the 300 per cent salary increment comes from and not from the richer ones. Now, you are asking me to worry about senior civil servants rioting over food. They are not going to do that. We have raised the salaries for the bottom and vulnerable people considerably and where there have been issues with nurses or the Judiciary, this is being negotiated and sorted out.

Sir, the private sector is not under any wage freeze. I think the hon. Questioner should precede his question with a congratulatory message to us and then, he should also thank me for this.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge): Mr Speaker, may I know when the Government will procure and distribute ambulances across the country.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, to my knowledge, twenty ambulances have been distributed while forty are about to be distributed. A further 100 ambulances have been planned for. That will bring the total to 160 ambulances, including one for Kalomo.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba: Yachiba ni leakage.

Laughter

The Vice-President: When the hon. Member needs to launch the ambulance services, I think he should be careful not to jump into it enthusiastically because he might end up damaging the springs.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, anthrax has broken out in some parts of the Western Province, in particular, Luampa and some reports suggest Mwandi also. Katombola Constituency, in Kazungula District, borders the said areas. What preventive measures has the Government taken to protect my constituency?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we have sent some officers to look into that issue. It is a very chronic disease which recurs in the late dry season in the Western Province and we just have to fight it as best we can. Some animals are always going to die, but anthrax is an issue that we have to deal with and, like I have said, we have sent some people to do that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, our colleagues on the left, the UPND and MMD, have been demonstrating on the streets over the PF Government alleged interference in the running of the Judiciary. May His Honour the Vice-President comment on the conviction of our own Hon. Masumba. What is the Government’s position on that?

Hon. Government Members: Our own?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the comment is simply that they should see for themselves. If there had been some underground connections between the Judiciary and the Executive, we would not have a police commander in court and an hon. Minister of this Government sentenced to one year imprisonment with hard labour by the State Court. Therefore, I think it is just evident that we mean what we say. When we bring the Vote on the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) next week, you will see that there is an enormous increase in the Budget allocation. We expect the ACC to work and it is working. Therefore, I do not think that there is a need for a specific comment about the individual concerned.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to rise on a point of order.

Sir, is Hon. Davies Mwila in order to poke fun at Mr Masumba when actually it is his political party that enticed him to join it and left him in prison. It also enticed Hon. Taima and left him on the street. It did the same to Hon. Chishiba and Hon. Musonda. Is he in order to ask that question that when his party does not care and is so irresponsible that it is destroying democracy?

Sir, I seek your very serious ruling on this irresponsibility from this political party.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

Hon. Opposition Member: Fire a friend.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I cannot read into the hon. Member for Chipili’s question on the interpretation placed by the hon. Member for Solwezi Central. Secondly and procedurally, the hon. Member for Solwezi Central has just been debating his point of order and so, to that extent, it is not admissible.

The hon. Member for Mwembeshi may continue.

Mr Milambo: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise this very important point of order. This House demands that, as hon. Members debate, they be factual. In view of this, is the Member for Chipili, Hon. Davies Mwila, in order to mislead himself, attempt to mislead this House and the nation by stating that the UPND and MMD have been demonstrating on the streets over the issue of the Chief Justice when he is fully aware that the PF, through the police, have not allowed the Opposition to demonstrate over what it considers the illegal stay in office of the Chief Justice? Is he in order to mislead himself and attempt to mislead this House?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The point of order refers to a question that has already been responded to. To that extent, it cannot be admitted on my famous or infamous criterion of being not contemporaneous. That aside, the hon. Member for Choma, like the hon. Member for Solwezi Central, has largely debated his point of order. In fact, he has gone outside the remit of what the hon. Member for Chipili referred to. He has brought in extraneous issues. Again, on that ground alone, I will not admit that point of order.

The hon. Member for Mwembeshi may continue.

Mr Milambo: Mr Speaker, the Kwacha to Dollar exchange rate has now hit K6 per United States (US) Dollar, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milambo: … making …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Milambo: … imports are now very expensive. What is it that the PF Government is doing wrong for the exchange rate to be this high?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, exchange rates are a complicated subject and I do not want to take up the House’s time.

Mr Livune: Question.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I was looking at the history …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Livune, are you suggesting that they are simple matters?

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, he may find it simple if it is the exchange rate between pigs and cows, but where it is between the US Dollar and Kwacha, it is difficult. First of all, most of our imports are from South Africa. The Kwacha to Rand rate has been very steady for the last two years. We have been falling with them in strength because of the falling price of primary commodities, that is, gold in their case and copper in ours. That is the underlying chemistry that is there, if you like. I do not think that most consumer goods that come from South Africa are going to be affected by this pattern. Furthermore, I think that, yesterday or on Wednesday, the Kwacha rebounded to some extent. I mean, K6 per US Dollar is an exaggeration. It is around K5.5 per US Dollar at the moment. Therefore, I think that some of it is a reaction by portfolio investors to the change in the Fitch Ratings. You know that the rating agencies are the ones that tell us that completely hopeless mortgages are okay when they are packaged together and cause worldwide recessions. Therefore, I would not expect you to rely on the rating agencies for too much longer. However, they are factors. I think that we also need to learn to produce more for ourselves in this country and pay ourselves for producing things instead of importing everything that can be thought of and made here.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simfukwe (Mbala): Mr Speaker, the Final Draft Constitution is ready. Could His Honour the Vice-President allay the fears that there will be another committee appointed to scrutinise it before it is distributed to the Zambian people.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I really do not know how many times I have said, in this House, that we expect the Constitution to be distributed by the end of the year. As regards how we are going to handle it, we are waiting to read the recommendations of the Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution because we kept ourselves out. I was invited to go to the Lusaka District consideration of the Draft Constitution because I am a Member of Parliament, but I declined the invitation because I am part of the Government that is going to receive the recommendations. We are not going to start feeding them in before you even go to the point of considering what you are going to report on. Therefore, I do not know what is in the report. However, have a little patience. We have been saying that it will be done at the end of the year, and it is not the end of the year yet, not even in the Northern Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, now, it is evident that the 7 per cent gross domestic product (GDP) cannot sustain this economy, as we have seen from the employment and wage increase freeze. Going by the confidence and hope that the Government gave to the Zambian people towards the elections in 2011, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President why this Government is failing to grow the economy by 10 per cent or 11 per cent, which would make a bigger difference than what it is now.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the Zambian economy is driven largely by investments in the copper or minerals sector and by the world prices of those commodities. Whether it grows at 7 per cent or 12 per cent is largely a matter of what is happening in that sector. At the same time, we are restructuring agriculture and tourism, and we expect to get growth in other sectors as well. These are sectors that were neglected by the hon. Questioner and his friends in earlier times.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mphande (Mkushi North): Mr Speaker, in line with the spreading economic development and distribution of Foreign Direct Investment (FDI), can His Honour the Vice-President confirm that there are two shopping malls, nearly the size of Manda Hill, under construction on the Copperbelt?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I can confirm this …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … because the hon. Lady had the common sense to send me the question on a piece of paper so I had time to consult. Yes, it is true. There is one in Kitwe and another one in Ndola, but what it does draw attention to is the fact that there is a lot of demand here in this country for consumer goods. This is an opportunity for many people to manufacture. I hope this is not just going to turn into another importation from the South African channel. It is going to do something for the local content of what we consume.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, the people in Lukulu are still waiting for the answer on the Katunda/Lukulu Road as promised in this House. When is His Honour the Vice-President going to give the right answer?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I beg the hon. Questioner to come to my office, here at Parliament,  …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … where I have got the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) and the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication waiting and we can answer his question once and for all. That is as much as I can respond to that question at the moment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe rose.

Mr Sikazwe: Tom and Jerry, ikala.

Laughter

___________{mospagebreak}

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

YOUTH CLUBS IN LUKULU

193. Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West) asked the Minister of Youth and Sport how many youth clubs in Lukulu East and Lukulu West Parliamentary constituencies had been funded in 2013.

The Vice-President (Dr Scott) (on behalf of the Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Kambwili)): Mr Speaker, Hon. Kambwili, who is a youth, has sent his apologies, although I have not checked why. The hon. Deputy Minister, whom I would have normally asked to give the answer, is not allowed in this House and the other hon. Deputy Minister has run …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … back to his seat on the opposite side.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

You seem to be referring to history now.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Therefore, Mr Speaker, the answer supplied by the administration is that the Ministry of Youth and Sport has allocated K1,173,000 to the Youth Development Fund for the Western Province. A total of forty-two projects have been earmarked for funding in the province. Only one project from Lukulu District has been approved for funding. The nature of the project is Information Technology (IT) consultancy and training. Since Lukulu has been divided into two districts, I am not certain whether it refers to what is left of Lukulu or Mitete as well. I am not certain what this actually means.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, what His Honour the Vice-President, who is standing in for the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport does not know is what I equally need to know. That is why I asked whether this is for Lukulu East or Lukulu West. In this case, Mitete or Lukulu.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thought I made it clear that I was not able to answer that question. I had no time to research this question at all. So, I apologise for that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, the MMD Government used to give balls to clubs. Even Lukulu in the Western Province used to get some, but what is happening now?

Mr Speaker: I presume the hon. Member is referring to footballs.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I will look into the matter and provide the answer next Friday during the Vice-President’s Question Time. That will be my first answer.

I thank you, Sir.

TOWNSHIP ROADS IN SESHEKE

194. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the construction of township roads and drainages in Sesheke Township would commence;

(b) what the cost of the project was; and

(c) when the project would be completed.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr N. Banda): Mr Speaker, the evaluation was completed and is awaiting the Ministerial Procurement Committee’s approval.

Sir, as the procurement process has not yet been completed, the cost of the project cannot be determined at this stage.

Mr Speaker, the completion date for the project will only be determined once the procurement process has been completed and the contractor is on site.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE COMPETITION AND CONSUMER PROTECTION (Amendment) BILL, 2013

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Competition and Consumer Protection (Amendment) Bill, 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday 4th December, 2013. Hon. Members, who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the Programme of Work of the Committee.

THE ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Environmental Management (Amendment) Bill, 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday 4th December, 2013. Hon. Members, who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the Programme of Work of the Committee.

THE FEES AND FINES (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Fees and Fines (Amendment) Bill, 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday 4th December, 2013. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the Programme of Work of the Committee.

THE PATENTS AND COMPANIES REGISTRATION AGENCY (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Patents and Companies Registration Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Delegated Legislation. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday 4th December, 2013. Hon. Members, who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the Programme of Work of the Committee.

THE WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Weights and Measures (Amendment) Bill, 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Delegated Legislation. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Wednesday 4th December, 2013. Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the Programme of Work of the Committee.

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 20/04 – (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – K11,213,193).

(Consideration resumed)

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was talking about the “Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign”. I was saying that we are just paying lip service to that campaign instead of practising it. If you go to Lumumba Road today, …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order which borders on the welfare of our nation. Is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock in order to trot around the globe when farmers in the rural areas, particularly Chadiza, have not received seed when the rainy season has begun, and he has not made a single trip to the rural areas to see whether the farmers have received the inputs or not?

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Since the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock will be giving a ministerial statement on Tuesday next week, all those issues that you have raised will be adequately covered.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I was talking about the “Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign”. I was saying that we are just paying lip service to this because if you go around our streets, you will see a lot of dirt. Part of the reason is that we have allowed street vending to continue and it is making the streets very untidy. The other reason is that we have not sensitised our people about the importance of keeping our surroundings clean.

Sir, why is it that we cannot take a cue from countries like Singapore? I have not been to Singapore before, but I have heard from those that have been there that it is very clean and that it is an offense for people to throw litter anyhow. However, in Zambia, people throw banana peels or water bottles out of moving cars and nobody even cares. There is a need to sensitise our people about cleanliness.

For example, Mr Chairperson, I went to Kigali, Rwanda, which is very clean, because they are very serious about cleanliness. I saved one of our people from a neighboring country who had the same mentality as ours from prosecution. We were on a minibus going to check on a forest and, after drinking some water, he was about to throw the empty bottle out the window, but I held that bottle in a Kung Fu style and prevented it from hitting the ground.

Laughter

Ms Imenda: That is when I was told that he would have been prosecuted because it is illegal to throw litter in Kigali. That person’s mentality is the mentality we and some of our neighbours have.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise the hon. Minister to do something about sensitising the people about the importance of not throwing litter. I think that this Vote on “Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign” should be increased so that we can make our country clean. I also took a cue from the compounds in Tanzania. Tanzania used to be dirtier than Zambia, especially in the compounds, but this time when I went there, I noticed that their compounds were very clean. I was eager to find out why the place had become cleaner and was told that they had engaged some women groups on a commercial basis who are paid monthly to clean the compounds. I would like to advise the hon. Minister to implement the same system here since we always copy things from other countries because we are not proactive.

Sir, I would like to join the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala in prayer so that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is sufficiently funded. I think that the allocation for the ministry is not enough. We should find money from somewhere and increase the allocation. With these few words, I support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, wind up debate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Kabanshi): Mr Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament who have debated on my ministry’s Estimates of Expenditure for Heads 20, 25 and 29.

Sir, my ministry has attentively listened to the comments, observations and advice rendered by some hon. Members of Parliament aimed at improving the performance of the Local Government System in our country. The Government has embarked on various reforms in order to revamp the performance of councils in the country.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the concerns raised by most hon. Members of Parliament on the late release of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), my ministry will liaise with the Treasury to ensure that the funds are released at once and disbursed to all the constituencies in good time for the implementation of projects. However, I urge all hon. Members of Parliament, as councillors, to assist the Government by ensuring that the following requirements are complied with:

(a) timely commitment and utilisation of the CDF,

(b) timely submission of expenditure returns to my ministry to account for the previous CDF allocation; and

(c) planning ahead by identifying and agreeing on the prioritised projects to be funded from the CDF as already provided for in the 2006 CDF Guidelines, in consultation with the hon. Members of Parliament and other stakeholders.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to remind this august House that hon. Members of Parliament are major stakeholders in the management and utilisation of the CDF, as they are members of the Constituency Development Committee and councils.

Sir, the Government has demonstrated unwavering commitment to the implementation of the Revised National Decentralisation Policy, as evidenced by the following interventions:

(a) the creation of new districts which has given the people in those areas an opportunity to participate in the governance of their areas;

(b) the up-scaling of funding to councils;

(c) devolving of full licensing powers to the councils which will also increase the revenue base for the councils; and

(d) commencing sector devolution, in 2014, beginning with the selected sector ministry to councils in a phased approach.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to urge this august House to support the budget for my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 20/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 20/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 20/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
VOTE 29/05 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Local Government Administration Department – K842,096,668).

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5004, Activity 002 − Constituency Development Fund (CDF) – K210,000,000. Is this fund going to be shared properly? Are we going to use a system where the last district to receive the CDF last time shall be the first one to get it next time or are we going to go by the same system of disbursement that was used this year?

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5004, Activity 002 – Constituency Development Fund – K210,000,000, we will follow the Decentralisation Policy which will take into consideration the transfer of funds from the Government directly to the local authorities.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5008, Activity 013 – Inspections and Other Audits – Nil, Activity 018 – Preparation of Minister’s Report on the Audited Accounts of Local Authorities – K80,000, Activity 019 – Scrutinising and Summarising Local Authorities’ Annual Estimates – K80,000, Activity 023 – Verification, Confirmation and Consolidation of Council Indebtedness – K43,000 and Activity 025 – Action-Taken Report on the Parliamentary Audit Queries and Policy Matters – K79,000.

Mr Chairperson, for Activity 013 – Inspections and Other Audits – nil, I have noticed that, last year, there was a provision of K110,000 but there is no allocation for this activity this year. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why this is so. Does it mean that there will be no audits and inspections? I have also noticed that there is a reduction in the allocations of the other activities that I have mentioned. May I know why this is so.

Mr Lubinda stood in the Deputy Chairperson’s way. 
 
The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

You are standing in my way, Hon. Lubinda.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Chairperson, for Activity 013 – Inspections and Other Audits – Nil, there is no allocation following the introduction of new activities financed within the ceiling.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5004, Activity 002 – Constituency Development Fund – K210,000,000. I have noticed that there is a slight increase from K195,000,000 to K210,000,000. Owing to the fact that this is a very important activity, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why the increase has been so minimal.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5004, Activity 002 – Constituency Development Fund – K210,000,000, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was about to make a clarification on Programme 5004, Activity 002 – Constituency Development Fund – K210,000,000. This is how much the Budget allowed us to increase. So, we could not go beyond that.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001. Under that programme, all the activities, save for Activity 004 – Staff Welfare – Nil and 161 – Local Government Policy – K90,000, have a big reduction. I would like to find out why this is so.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr N. Banda): Mr Chairperson, generally, all these Votes are related to office administration and the equipment was bought in the 2013 Budget. So, the reason for the reductions is that the equipment has already been procured.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 29/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/06 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Infrastructure and Support Services Department – K10,828,426).

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 157 – Urban and Feeder Roads – K 637,834.

Sir, K1,000,000 was allocated in the 2013 Budget for urban and feeder roads. In the 2014 Budget, only K637,834 has been allocated for the same activity. Is this allocation related to the 1,300 km feeder roads and the additional 2,700 km that the hon. Minister talked about? If it is, what does the hon. Minister have to say with regard to capacity to do the work?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the question raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central is not very clear. Is he talking about the huge quantity of work in comparison to the amount allocated which has a reduction? If this is the case, the only answer I can provide is that the allocation has been reduced because a similar activity has been budgeted for under Loans and Investments. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 170 – National Water Supply and Sanitation Council (NWASCO) – Nil, and Activity 172 – Rural Water Supply Scheme – Nil.  

Sir, in the recent past, the number of districts has increased. Obviously, one expects NWASCO and the Rural Water Supply Scheme to have more funding. May I know why there is no funding under these two activities in the 2014 Budget.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5005, Activity 170 – National Water Supply and Sanitation Council (NWASCO) – Nil, and Activity 172 – Rural Water Supply Scheme – Nil, have been budgeted for under Vote 20, Programme 5011.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulusa: Where? On which page?

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5054, Activity 003 – Fire Hydrants – Nil. The budget for 2013 was K4,700,000. However, no money has been apportioned in the 2014 Budget. I would like to find out whether the fire hydrants have been procured.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, the funds for the procurement of fire tenders have been re-allocated. The activity has been budgeted for under Head 20 to allow for the installation of the fire hydrants in the cities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 062 – Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign – K314,721. The budget for 2013 was K780,000, but only K314,721 has been allocated for 2014. Are we sure that our streets are clean? Is Lusaka so clean that you have decided to reduce the allocation for this activity?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, the allocation for this activity has been reduced because some of the money has been transferred to Programme 5056, Activity 002 – Cleaning of Selected Compounds – K750,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 003 – General Office Administration – K187,000.

The Deputy Chairperson: What page are you on?

Mrs Mazoka: Page 489, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: We have not reached page 489 yet.

Mrs Mazoka: I beg your pardon, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 168 – Markets and Bus Stations Boards – K524,535. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why we are wasting this money to manage markets and bus stations when they are run by PF cadres?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, since that is a general question, it is the responsibility of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to budget for the programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on …

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, the whole purpose of our being here is to ensure that there is prudence in the allocation and management of public resources. A question was clearly put forward that these markets and stations are run by party cadres who collect the money and are, therefore, supposed to maintain them. Why are we allocating public funds to an institution that collects income through party cadres? We need an answer that shows that this challenge is being addressed.

Is the hon. Minister in order to answer in that manner, rendering our presence here irrelevant? I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the question was not answered, the hon. Deputy Minister will have to address it as he responds to the other questions that will be posed.

Hon. Member for Kabompo West, you may continue.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity 157 – Urban and Feeder Roads – K637,834. 

Sir, there is a drastic reduction from K1,000,000 to K637,834 despite the fact that rural areas need the feeder roads very urgently. I would like to find out how many kilometres are envisaged to be constructed with this meagre amount?

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Deouty Minister was making a clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 062 – Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign – K 314,721, he said that this amount has been reduced because it has been transferred to Programme 5056, Activity 002 – Cleaning of Selected Compounds – K750,000, which has also been reduced.

Is the hon. Minister in order to mislead us by saying that the amount has been transferred? I can see that in 2013 and 2014, these activities have been budgeted for, and yet there is a decrease in allocation each of these activities. Is he in order to mislead the House? 

The Deputy Chairperson: As the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing responds to the question posed by Hon. Lufuma, he will also address the points of order raised by Hon. Mulusa and Hon. L. J. Ngoma.

The hon. Minister may respond.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, the ministry is definitely addressing the issue of market boards. In fact, the ministry budgeted for the funds which are reflecting here. This is meant to facilitate the constitution of boards in markets, hence that provision. As a ministry, we realise that there has been laxity on the part of councils to institute these boards. This has been a political issue. However, the ministry is trying to address it. The budget has been reduced from the previous amount to ensure that we bring sanity to the issues of markets.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Sikazwe: But the hon. Deputy Minister is still responding.

Mr N. Banda: On the issue of the Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign, yes, Mr Chairperson, there is a slight reduction in the …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the issue we would like the Government to address, through the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, is very specific. That is the issue of party cadres taking over the markets. The hon. Deputy Minister is not addressing that issue in his answer. Can he address that issue.

The Deputy Chairperson: As you answer other questions, hon. Minister, just come out clearly on that issue.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, on the issue of bus stations and markets being run by the party officials, we sat down in the ministry and came up with a resolution on that. We resolved that any funding that is going to go towards the construction of markets and bus stations will go towards the formation of the boards that are supposed to run these institutions. We will not disburse any money to the markets that do not have boards.

With regard to the issue of the Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign, Mr Chairperson, we want the people to own this campaign. All along, the Government has spearheaded this campaign. We want everybody to stand up and clean the environment, including all the hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: There was the issue relating to urban and feeder roads where there is an allocation of K637,834 million. The question was how many kilometres this amount will cover.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, my ministry has approved a lot of requests from the councils to purchase earth-moving equipment. So, they should use this equipment to work on the feeder roads. I have approved many requests from the Southern Province to buy earth-moving equipment. We want to see the equipment that has been bought start working.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the question from Hon. Lufuma came after mine. I asked why there was that reduction and the response from the Minister does not answer Hon. Lufuma’s question. His question was how many kilometres this money was going to cater for. Could the Minister respond to that question.

The Deputy Chairperson: For avoidance of doubt and to clear the issue once and for all, may the hon. Minister answer that question.

Mrs Kabanshi: Mr Chairperson, you have seen even from the other Votes that we have not been indicating the amounts, equating them to the number of markets that we are going to build, for example. So, I cannot also equate this amount to the number of kilometres that will be worked on. After the budget has been approved, we will sit down and come up with the number of kilometres.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Chairperson with regard to …

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Sir.

Ms Namugala: … the issue of market and bus station boards and the allocation of K 524,535, …

Mr Mulusa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Ms Namugala: … the hon. Minister has not clearly told us whether, if we approve this money …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. I hope we are not debating through points of order. You have your point of order.

Mr Mulusa: Mr Chairperson, when I came to the House this morning to contribute towards the approval of this budget, my understanding was that this is an activity-based budget, meaning that, if one kilometre of road costs …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order, please?

Mr Mulusa: My point of order is: Is the hon. Minister, in answering the question by Mr Lufuma, in order to say that the amount of money is not linked to the number of kilometres to be constructed when this is an activity-based budget? Has this ceased to be an activity-based budget?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing will take up that point as she responds to the point raised by Hon. Namugala.

May Hon. Namugala, continue.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, the issue of markets and bus stations is of concern to all of us because they have been taken over by the PF cadres.

Mr Sikazwe: Question.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, we want to be assured by the hon. Minister that if we approve this amount in the budget, the PF cadres will be removed from the bus stations and markets and the boards will run the markets and bus stations.

Hon. Opposition Members. Hear, hear!

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, the assurance has been made on the Floor of the House concerning the formation of boards. I believe that, that is a ministerial position. The issue of …

Mr Pande: Removal of cadres.

Mr N. Banda: … the what?

Interruptions

Mr N. Banda: On the issue of how many kilometres of feeder roads will be worked on, Mr Chairperson, the allocation is meant to support the stakeholders who are involved in the construction of feeder roads and so it is not directly for the work on the feeder roads, but for the support to the institutions that are dealing with the feeder roads.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: The question that was raised is: If this particular budget line is approved, will you secure the removal of cadres from these markets? Can you, please, address that issue so that we move on.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, the ministry is geared to resolve that issue by removing the cadres and ensuring that markets and bus stations are run by boards. We have promised, on the Floor of the House, that we are going to institute the boards. The current position is that there are no boards yet. That is why there is this gap that has been filled by the cadres. We are going to remove the cadres from the bus stations and markets as we institute the boards.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 29/06 – Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Infrastructure and Support Services Department – K10,828,426 ordered to stand part of the Estimates and the House voted.

Ayes – (64)

Mrs Banda
Mr Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Mr Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Dr Chikusu
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chingimbu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chitotela
Mr S. Chungu
Mrs Kabanshi
Mr Kampyongo
Dr Kasonde
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu
Mr Lungu
Col. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Mbulu
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukata
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Munkombwe
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Dr Phiri
Mr Sampa
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Sichinga
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Taundi
Mr Tembo
Prof. Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba

Noes – (34)

Mr I. Banda
Mr Belemu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chitafu
Mrs Chungu
Ms Imenda
Dr Kaingu
Mr Katambo
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Mr Lombanya
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mr M. Malama
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbewe
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mtolo
Mr Muchima
Mr Mulomba
Mr Mulusa
Mr Muntanga
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Ms Namugala
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mr Pande
Mr Phiri
Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Mr Simbao
Mr Simfukwe

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, on a point of procedure.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you raise it, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: It appears the system is defective because it was indicating, “Voting forty-three” before the voting started.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, why was it programmed?

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

Question agreed to.

Vote 29/06, accordingly ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/07 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Government Evaluation Department – K5,693,311).

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

This is a very serious exercise. All of you, hon. Members, want your constituencies to be developed and the development will depend on our passing the budget. Therefore, the exercise must be given the seriousness it deserves.

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 002 –…

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

I hope that point of order will be in compliance with the Standing Orders. You may proceed.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to know the consequence of having a copy of the Yellow Book that does not have pages 489 and 500.

The Deputy Chairperson: The Clerks will avail you another copy of the Yellow Book. It is a mistake from the printers. It was not necessarily intended to deny the Vice-President of the MMD an opportunity to debate.

Hon. Mulomba, you may proceed.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was seeking clarification on Programme 5003, Activity 002 – Monitoring and Evaluation – K50,000, Activity 003 – Research and Development – K65,000 and Activity 004 – Support to VSRB, RVT, SIZ and ZIEA – K83,000. I have noticed that there have been reductions in all these important activities. May I know why that is so.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, all the activities in Programme 5003 have had their allocations reduced due to a limitation in resources. There is a newly-created …

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, according to your ruling on the point of order raised by Hon. Dr Kaingu, you have allowed the Clerk to give him another copy of the Yellow Book. Is it, therefore, in order for the House to continue debating and deny Hon. Dr Kaingu the right to go through the pages? Should the House not wait until he has received the document?

The Deputy Chairperson: The point of order is not sustained because the hon. Member should have noticed that earlier as he was preparing to come into the House.

Hon. Government Members: Give him another copy.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, you may proceed.

Dr Kaingu was given another copy of the Yellow Book.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I will now feel inclined not to allow points of order.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Minister, you may proceed.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, the observation by the hon. Member is correct. However, what has happened is that there is a new activity that has been created to cover all the reductions in those activities. All these activities have been moved to Programme 5077 where the reductions have been covered.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mrs Mazoka: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 003 – General Office Administration – K187,000. I notice that this year, this activity was allocated K590,000 but, in the 2014 Budget, only K187,000 was allocated. What has necessitated this big reduction since it is the same office?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5001, Activity 003 – General Office Administration – K187,000, the allocation to that activity has been reduced so that part of the resources can be allocated to other activities of need such as Programme 5077, Activity 003 – Sensitisation on Rating in Local Authorities – K490,000.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 9000, Activity 026 – Rehabilitation of Buildings – Nil. I note that some money was allocated to this activity in the 2013 Budget. However, there is no allocation for this activity in the 2014 Budget when we have been assured by the hon. Minister that councils should try to beef up their revenue through rate collection. If these buildings are in a dilapidated state and there is no allocation for their rehabilitation, will this ‘dream’ for councils be realised?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 9000, Activity 026 – Rehabilitation of Buildings – Nil, this activity has been budgeted for under Programme 5001, Activity 005 – Office Building Maintenance – K125,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has just informed us that the activity has been budgeted for under Programme 5001, Activity 005 – Office Building Maintenance – K125,000. Why have the allocations for this year and next year not been reflected? The allocation for Activity 005 – Office Building Maintenance is K125,000. Meanwhile, in Programme 9000, Activity 026 – Rehabilitation of Buildings, there is no allocation. Is this not one and the same thing?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, part of this money is needed for rehabilitation. You may agree with me that when you carry out some rehabilitation works in 2013, you do not need to repeat them the following year, hence the reduction.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 29/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/09 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Decentralisation Secretariat – K3,190,259).

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K442,500, Activity 019 – Transport Management – K245,000, Activity 034 – Administration – K46,926 and Activity 036 – Services – 132,500. In all these activities, there have been drastic reductions. What is the explanation for these reductions?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K442,500, the reduction is due to the reduced number of equipment to be procured. On Activity 019 – Transport Management – K245,000, the decrease is due to the reduced number of vehicles to be serviced and purchase of spare parts. On Activity 034 – Administration –  K46,926, the reduction is due to the fact that part of the activities have been budgeted for under Activity 003 of the same Programme. On Activity 036 – Services – K132,500, the reduction in the allocation is due to the reduced number of office equipment to be serviced.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5062, Activity 004 − Servicing the PSRP Committee – K320,000. In this year’s Budget, there is an allocation of K43,000. Now, there is a proposal for K320,000 for next year. What has necessitated this increase?

Mr Tembo hesitated to rise.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is Programme 5062, Activity 004.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5062, Activity 004 − Servicing the PSRP Committee – K320,000, the budget line remains the same, as there is no increase or decrease.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: There is an increase from K43,000 to K320,000. The question is: Why is there an increase?

Mr Tembo remained seated.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is Programme 5062, Activity 004 − Servicing the PSRP Committee – K320,000.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5062, Activity 004 − Servicing the PSRP Committee – K320,000, the increase is due to the scaling up of the activities which will be undertaken.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 29/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 25/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77 – (Ministry of Defence – K2,726,686,470).

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mwamba): Mr Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to stand before this august House to present the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Defence for the period 1st January to 31st December, 2014. Before I deliver my ministerial policy statement, allow me to commend the Minister of Finance, Hon. Alexander Bwalya Chikwanda, MP, for delivering a progressive and all-embracing 2014 National Budget.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry’s budget has included issues that are pertinent to the realigned Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP) and the PF Manifesto in as far as improvement of conditions of service for the Defence Forces are concerned. In addition, it has taken care of issues that are cardinal to the sustenance of morale amongst military personnel.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry’s mission statement is:

“To preserve, protect, defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Zambia in order to maintain peace and security for all citizens and residents and contribute to national development.”

Sir, for the year ending 31st December, 2013, my ministry has an approved budget of K2,057,648,621. My ministry has, so far, made the following achievements in the 2013 Budget.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry recognises the importance of maintaining peace and stability for sustained national economic development. In this regard, my ministry has continued with the exercise of modernising the Zambia Defence Forces by procuring and upgrading equipment and facilitating specialised training for personnel despite the budgetary constraints. As the PF Government, we shall endeavour to continue modernising the Zambia Defence Forces as and when resources permit, as this is critical to the country’s peace and stability.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry recognises the threat of terrorism to the wellbeing of our country’s much-cherished peace and stability. I want to assure this august House and the nation that my ministry, through the Zambian Defence Forces, stands ready to counter any such threats. Let me repeat that I assure this august House and the nation that my ministry, through the Zambia Defence Forces, stands ready to counter any such threats.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry acknowledges the importance of the agriculture sector to the economic growth of our country. In this regard, my ministry, through the Zambia National Service (ZNS), cultivated a total of 1,142 hectares and expanded poultry and fish production in the 2013 agriculture season. This effort has contributed to the enhancement of national food security. Further, my ministry has continued with the Livestock Restocking Exercise at selected ZNS camps which will ultimately contribute to the enhancement of beef production.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, through the ZNS Land Development (LDB), has contributed to the opening of feeder roads in addition to road rehabilitation in some rural areas, thereby making them more accessible. I wish to state that the LDB is doing a commendable job in the Eastern Province by opening up feeder roads. This will eventually be replicated to other parts of the country.

Sir, the ministry recognises the critical role that vocational skills play in national development and stands ready to participate, through ZNS, in the realisation of this cherished goal. The ministry, in collaboration with other line ministries, is currently training 550 youths in various skills at Chiwoko, in Katete, and the Kitwe Camp.

Mr Chairperson, unemployment has continued to pose a challenge, especially among youths. Pursuant to the PF Government’s commitment to job creation, my ministry has continued to make modest contributions to this cause by employing 3,567 people from 2011, when the PF came into power, to date.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, through the sixty-one health facilities that are based in military cantonments countrywide, has continued to provide health care services to both the military and civilian population in the surrounding areas. These services have not only contributed to the wellbeing of our men and women in uniform, but also the general population in these areas, in line with the National Health Policy of bringing health services as close to the people as possible.

Sir, allow me to give you an overview of the 2014 budget for my ministry. The Budget Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Defence for the year beginning 1st January to 31st December, 2014, are K2,726,686,470, representing an increase of 32.5 per cent over the approved budget for 2013. Out of this, 82.3 per cent will go towards personal emoluments and the balance of 17.7 per cent will be spent on Recurrent Departmental Charges and capital projects.

Mr Chairperson, having given an overview of the budget, may I now highlight the salient features.

Mr Chairperson, the importance of training for our men and women in uniform, in light of the ever-changing environment that includes terrorism, among other things, cannot be over emphasised. My ministry will, therefore, continue training military personnel, both locally and abroad, in order to equip them with the relevant skills and knowledge of handling such situations. In this regard, my ministry is embarking on the exercise of upgrading training facilities in the Defence Forces.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has continued with the process of operationalising the Northern Command Hospital which is in Ndola. A provision of K8 million has been set aside for this exercise.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has made a provision of K10,521,445, in the 2014 Budget, for the Youth Skills Training Programme. Out of this amount, K2,630,361 is meant for infrastructure rehabilitation at the Chiwoko, in Katete, and Kitwe camps while the balance of K7,891,084 is for training, food rations, uniforms, training aids and other requisites for 2014.

Mr Chairperson, the ZNS will cultivate 1,229 hectares in the 2013/14 agriculture season as part of the ministry’s contribution to the enhancement of food security. My ministry has set aside K37 million in the 2014 Budget for the procurement of specialised equipment in order to achieve this objective. It is hoped that the ZNS will enhance its activities through this exercise.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to report to this august House that for the first time since Independence, the Government has rationalised and harmonised the conditions of service for our men and women in uniform. This exercise has raised the morale of the uniformed personnel.

Mr Chairperson, I would be failing in my duties if I did not commend our gallant men and women in uniform for maintaining peace and stability since Independence through exemplary conduct in the discharge of their duty.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: In the same vein, I further wish to commend them for gunning down the notorious Mailoni brothers who had caused havoc and fear in the people of the Luano Valley of Central Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, people in the Luano Valley are now free to go about with their normal lives without fear of being attacked.

In conclusion, Sir, my ministry, under the leadership of His Excellency, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, the President of the Republic of Zambia and Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, shall continue to fulfil its mandate of defending the country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Further, my ministry will continue to contribute to the empowerment of the unemployed youths through youth skills training.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to end my presentation by urging the personnel in the Defence Forces to remain non-partisan, steadfast and loyal to the Government of the day. Therefore, I would like to call upon the hon. Members of this august House, who are still in this House, to fully and unanimously support my ministry’s budget estimates for 2014 as presented.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate this very important Vote for the Ministry of Defence. I support this Vote and, in so doing, there are a number of points that I need to discuss. The first one is that it is necessary for the Government to review the freeze on recruitment that was announced by the hon. Minister of Finance because it hurts the Defence Forces in a big way. It is not the first time that there has been a freeze in recruitment. There was a freeze when I was Chief of Operations in the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) and we suffered greatly. By the time the recruitment freeze was lifted, we were ten years behind. Therefore, I would like to ask the Government to review this policy, especially for the men and women in uniform.

 Secondly, the recruitment is very important, but it must not be done selectively. In the past, in order to sustain the One Zambia, One Nation Motto, recruitment was done at both provincial and district levels in order to capture as many people in the nation as possible to contribute towards the defence of the country. This was also aimed at discouraging having one tribe being more apparent than the others in the Defence Forces because, once this happens, it will breed unprofessionalism and you risk killing the Defence Forces. Therefore, when the hon. Minister of Defence comes to wind up the debate, let him assure this nation that recruitment is going to be done from the districts so that as many Zambians as possible can take part in the recruitment and running of the Defence Forces. 

Thirdly, the amount of money that has been allocated to emoluments far outstrips that for redeveloping and re-designing the Defence Forces. Every defence force in the world requires re-modernising at one level or the other. Otherwise, you will end up with obsolete equipment for the men and women in uniform. I see that there is an increase in the budget, but it is more on emoluments than on the modernisation of the Defence Forces. I would like to ask the Government to review this because it is necessary for us to modernise the military in order to run the current and modern armies that are surrounding us. Zambia has eight neighbours and each one of them is modernising its armies, air force and national defence forces. Therefore, it is necessary for us to spend money on defence.

Mr Chairperson, security is important. Whilst the Budget can be very good and the economy is doing well, if you cannot defend the economy, it is a waste of time and resources. Like the hon. Minister has said, you need the men and women in uniform to sustain the economy like it has been done before in many years.

Fourthly, there is a point that the hon. Minister has not mentioned in his policy statement. Have we stopped the Zambian military from participating in the United Nations (UN) Peace-Keeping Missions? These are important in two ways. Firstly, they give our men and women an opportunity to learn excellent skills because they mix with military personnel from other nations at a very high level. The hon. Minister did not mention anything about this. Secondly, they bring a lot of revenue to the country which is necessary for the modernisation of the Defence Forces.

Mr Chairperson, the other point that the hon. Minister has touched upon is the work that is being done by the ZNS. Indeed, they do a wonderful job in agriculture and many other areas. However, it is necessary, considering the equipment that is being bought, that the nation benefits from the money that is realised from the use of this equipment. In other words, we must account for that money. It must go back to the Ministry of Finance which is financing the purchase of this equipment. This is important because I heard that many hectares were farmed last year, but the hon. Minister has not said whether the money generated from this activity is going back to the ministry.

Sir, I am delighted that we can now use the Northern Command Hospital, but we should not ignore the need for Maina Soko Military Hospital to be improved upon. Maina Soko Military Hospital needs a lot of equipment for it to meet the needs of the Zambia Army, ZAF and ZNS personnel. Many other hospitals for the Zambia Defence Forces that are dotted around Lusaka also need support. Mount Virginia Hospital, for example, was my ‘baby’, but I would like the hon. Minister to see if support can be increased to these hospitals in order to serve the people of Zambia. This is because these hospitals do not only serve military personnel, but also civilians.

Mr Chairperson, I support this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the budget for the Ministry of Defence.

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to say that I support the Vote. However, the allocation to the Ministry of Defence is not enough. Some people may say that we cannot give the Ministry of Defence more money because we are not at war, but I would like to say that the Ministry of Defence is a very important ministry. Therefore, it needs more money. If you look at our neighbour, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), the security situation in that country is not good. Therefore, it is important for us to equip our men and women in uniform.

Mr Chairperson, I am saying this because I have worked in this ministry before …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: … and I know what is on the ground. It is important for us to help the hon. Minister of Defence to run this ministry. I would suggest that the hon. Minister in charge of Finance finds time to visit all the military cantonments …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: … for him to appreciate the situation. When the hon. Minister of Defence requests for more funding, he will be able to appreciate why the hon. Minister needs more funds.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, this is my appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance. There are too many challenges in this ministry. I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Defence on what is on the ground.

Mr Chairperson, we have talked about the modernisation of equipment. How do you modernise equipment without money? Even the K2.7 million is not enough for the modernisation of equipment.

Mr Chairperson, there is the issue of poor infrastructure. On page 818 of the Yellow Book, there is an allocation of K12.3 million for infrastructure. From the K12.3 million, K8 million will go to the Northern Command. It means that there is a balance of K4 million only. Hon. Minister of Finance, this K4 million is not enough for the ministry. I am reluctant to mention the poor infrastructure in the military cantonments. At the School of Ordinance in Livingstone, for example, the infrastructure is a sorry sight. I am happy that the hon. Minister is doing something about the Commando Unit in Ndola. However, the hon. Minister of Defence needs help to run this ministry. The Cabinet must help the hon. Minister of Defence in this regard. I had an opportunity to go through all the military cantonments. That is why I am saying that the hon. Minister must be helped.

Hon. Government Members: Go back there.

Hon. Government Member: So, you ran away?

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Why did you resign?

Mr Mwila: You are just a noise maker, iwe.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, you will recall that the MMD Government abandoned the Ministry of Defence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, question!

Mr L. J. Ngoma:  On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwila: They did not care about it. That is why it did not provide uniforms for the men and women in uniform.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, at the moment, …

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwila: Ala!

Mr L .J. Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to raise this very important point of order.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mwila has said that the MMD Government abandoned the Ministry of Defence. As far as I know, it is him who resigned …

Laughter

Mr L. J. Ngoma: … as Deputy Minister of Defence, which is a clear abandonment of the ministry. Is he in order to mislead this House and the nation at large by saying that the MMD Government abandoned the Ministry of Defence when, actually, it is him who abandoned it?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that, in the absence of facts being availed to the Chairperson, he is unable to make a ruling.

Laughter {mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You may continue, Hon. Mwila.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I am happy …

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, is Hon. Mwila in order to say that the MMD Government abandoned the Ministry of Defence, when I am a fact-available as commander in the military under the MMD, for President Kaunda under the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and, beyond that, as hon. Minister under the MMD? Is he in order, now that I have the facts here, Sir?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that with the facts that have just been presented, the hon. Member debating is out of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I will present the facts on the Floor of this House …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I hope you will not forget the fact that you were an hon. Minister and you took the oath of secrecy. Therefore, you should tread with care.

You may continue.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I was talking about the K2 million which has been provided for uniforms for the Zambia Army and the other K2 million for the ZNS, which is not enough. I am appealing to the Ministry of Finance to, maybe, provide a supplementary budget for that.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I would like to talk about is in regard to Zambia-China Mulungushi Textiles. Again, I will say that the ministry was abandoned because it is in black and white that Zambia-China Mulungushi Textiles was closed during the reign of the MMD.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: To date, it has not been reopened. So, who is to blame for this?

Mr Chansa: Those who abandoned it.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, it is the MMD that abandoned that factory. That is the reason the unemployment levels in Kabwe are high. Therefore, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to reopen the factory so that people can be employed.

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member who is debating in order to talk about problems in the Zambian Defence Forces and recommend solutions, and yet he abandoned it? Who does he think is going to solve those problems, when the hon. Member on the Floor, who is a ‘genius’, ran away?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that every person has a right to either resign or continue serving in an institution he has been appointed to. To that extent, there is no issue worth ruling on.

You may continue, Hon. Mwila.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection.

Sir, the other issue I would like the hon. Minister to look at is that of the Mununshi Banana Scheme. I am proposing that the ZNS takes it over. I recall, in 1997, the MMD Government sold it to Mr Findley, who was the Provincial Chairperson for the MMD at a giveaway price of K2.5 million. It is important that funds are provided for the ZNS to take over the Mununshi Banana Scheme in order to create employment.

Lastly, I would like to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to support the Vote for the Ministry of Defence.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I support the Vote for the Ministry of Defence.

Sir, we, in Kalabo, also need the things that others need. What the others are given, we should also be given; and what the others receive, we should also receive. What I am trying to say is that when I was in school, there were a lot of lot ZNS activities in the Western Province as a whole, and Kalabo, in particular. There was a skills training centre in Kalabo. However, it was closed for no apparent reason. With the good work that the ZNS is doing, especially in the area of agriculture, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to review the issue of the skills training centre in Kalabo because we are in dire need of that centre.

Mr Chairperson, when I was at school, we used to enjoy eating chickens from that centre.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: I remember this not from hearsay, but from experience.

Sir, when you are going into the bush to collect firewood, and you hear some cricket sounds and birds singing, that should not stop you from continuing with your journey. The birds and insects will continue with what they are doing while you continue with your journey because you will all mind your business. What I am trying to say is that we enjoyed those chickens …

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: … and so we still want that camp to be reopened.

Mr Chairperson, if the ZNS Camp in Kalabo is reopened, it will enable the people to learn different skills for the benefit of the community. I know that the communities in areas which have ZNS skills training centres are inspired by the good works of the centres. Similarly, I believe that we shall also benefit from the camp if it is reopened. After all, the land is still there.
 
Sir, there is a need to expand skills training centres. When you train people, you equip them with skills that will eventually enable them to fend for themselves. So, skills training is necessary everywhere in this country, hence the need to extend the centres to areas where they do not exist.

Mr Chairperson, despite being given a small allocation, I believe the ministry can find a way of extending the centres to other areas, especially rural areas. I enjoy living in rural areas despite the hardships because they have become a part of me.

Sir, youths in rural areas lack exposure and so, if the ZNS skills training centre are opened, I believe this would help them a lot. I, therefore, request that in addition to the production centres, which we are asking for, we should also have a skills training centre in Kalabo. The population in Kalabo has increased. When you walk on the streets of Kalabo, gravel as they are, most of the people you meet are youths who are just loitering. They are not contributing to the economy of Kalabo. The unemployment levels have also increased. So, if we have a youth skills training centre, I believe that the few people who will be trained at this centre will become the ‘salt’ of the community.

Mr Chairperson, in a home, you can make restrictions on anything but, when it comes to security, you have to be careful with how to restrict it. I am saying this in line with the employment freeze. If we freeze employment in the Ministry of Defence, I do not think we shall do a good service to this country. The youths should join the Defence Forces to replace the old people because they have the energy to work. I, therefore, request the Government to look into this issue because it is important that we have energetic people in the Defence Forces. The hon. Minister of Finance has the challenge of looking for resources, but the Ministry of Defence has the mandate to recruit personnel. We want the Ministry of Defence to employ youths in order to reduce the unemployment levels. The youths who are loitering on the streets should take their energies to the Defence Forces.

Mr Chairperson, if the Ministries of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education and Health are not allowed to employ, let the Ministry of Defence take up the youths who are just loitering. Like Hon. Lt-Gen. Rev. Shikapwasha said, the country can grow economically, but if we do not have strong Defence Forces, the economy will be of no value to us.

Sir, finally, I would like to say that the Ministry of Defence should be allowed to recruit in 2014 as is always the case every year. However, my observation on recruitment is …

Mr Ng’onga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me an opportunity to rise on this important point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central in order to go round in circles when he has made his point and he can give an opportunity to others to debate?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that hon. Members have different styles of debating.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

The Deputy Chairperson: Others debate straight while others go round in circles in order to arrive at the point they want to advance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, it would be good if the Ministry of Defence recruited local people. ‘Remote’ recruitment is not needed. What I mean by remote recruitment is that a person who resides in Lusaka should not be recruited from Kalabo. Usually, the names of the people that are recruited do not correspond with the people who are on the ground. This should be done away with. We want local residents to be recruited so that we know that, Lubinda from Kalabo or Sesheke, for example, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Not Kabwata.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: … has been recruited.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A appoint of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, is my brother in order, firstly, to bring my name into his debate and, secondly, to create an impression like he has forgotten the fact that Zambia is a unitary State and so people of different ethnicities can be found across the country and, therefore, it will not be possible to do what he is proposing which is to recruit from Kalabo only people with indigenous names from Kalabo? Is he in order, Sir?

Mr Muntanga: Lubinda.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Minister of Defence, who was taking notes, will seriously address that issue in his response.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we cannot live for others, but only for ourselves. We cannot ‘keep’ Kalabo for other people.

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Miyutu: Kalabo is there because of us. So, we must benefit from what is due to it. That is what we are there for. We cannot ‘keep’ Kalabo for other people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Miyutu: We use our energy to sustain Kalabo. The ministry is there in Kalabo because of the people of Kalabo and this must be borne in mind.

Hon. Opposition Member: Very good.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we want the local people to be recruited.

With these few words, I thank you.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, my debate will be brief.

Sir, in supporting this Vote, I want to raise two concerns that I feel are important. The first one is the reverence of the Zambia Army that, I believe, has waned. The Zambia Army is no longer as revered as it was in the past. This is due to a lot of reasons that the hon. Minister of Defence should look at.

Sir, the second issue is that of ranks. The army has its own type of ranking system which almost all the other security wings have gravitated to. This has created a problem in that people now cannot see the importance of the army compared to the other security wings.

Mr Chairperson, initially, ZAF abandoned its own ranking system and began to use that of the army. That was understandable and acceptable. Then, the ZNS came on board and was given the same ranking system when the core business of the ZNS was, to an extent, different from that of the Zambia Army but, because it was part of the Defence Forces, it was understood. In addition, all the private security companies have the same ranking system and some of them have uniforms that look like those for the Government security wings. As a result, one gets the impression that they are the same as the Zambia Army in terms of importance, when this is not the case.

Sir, I think this has demoralised the Zambia Army personnel. As far as I know, the army is supposed to be a disciplined group of men and women. The security firms that have imitated the Zambia Army’s system of ranking are not as disciplined as it is. They have reduced the reverence that the Zambia Army used to enjoy. We must find a way of restoring this reverence or else we shall end up with an army that is just an army in name, but not as important as the armies in other countries.

Mr Chairperson, I do not think the armies of other countries have allowed this kind of situation where the army has become as irrelevant as what we are seeing in our country.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I am closely following the debate of my elder brother who is on the Floor and debating the issue of ranks. Is he in order not to be categorical because the Government security wings are very well known and it would not be ideal to compare them with the private security companies that he is talking about? Could he be categorical so that the hon. Minister of Defence is able to respond appropriately.

Sir, my point of order is whether he is in order to debate without being categorical and factual in his comparison.

I seek your ruling, Sir.{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member who is debating was in order and that is why the hon. Minister of Defence is busy taking down some notes.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I was once a cadet officer and, in my time, we really used to admire the Zambia Defence Forces because then, the ranks were purely for the Zambia Army and ZAF. However, now we see the ranks everywhere. I hope hon. Members of Parliament appreciate that anything that motivates the army is important and likewise he ranking system. The Zambia Army Commander has the same rank as people who have not undergone the same kind of training that he underwent. That is very demoralising for the Zambia Army and we should not overlook this.

Sir, I am glad that we started building housing for army personnel when we were in office. I would like the Government to continue with this programme and build as many housing units as possible for the Zambia Army so that they can live in cantonments because living in the communities has lowered their morale and pride. I think it would be better for them to live in the barracks. By so doing, they are separated from the rest of society and it makes them look different. I think that is what they want. So, hon. Minister of Defence, you should continue from where the previous Government left to try to meet the housing shortfall for army personnel.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that I want to talk about is with regard to the Engineering Department of the Zambia Army. This seems to have been completely forgotten about. In the past, the engineering section of the army was very visible. We would see them in their uniform building bridges or doing something that the Government departments could not do. That made the army look very professional, but now the Engineering Department is probably ‘dead’. You can tell from the equipment that has broken down. If you went to the ZNS yard, you would be amazed to see the amount of broken-down equipment. I am sure the situation is the same in army barracks where there are broken-down vehicles or other equipment that may still be operational. So, I am wondering what is happening to the engineering section of the army. When I was studying Electrical Engineering, and I believe even when Hon. Mukanga was studying Mechanical Engineering, there were many students who were sponsored by the Zambia Army to study Engineering at the University of Zambia, but they have since left the Zambia Army. I really do not know if there are still any engineers in the Zambia Army.

Sir, the engineering section of the army is a very important arm of the army. We have a lot of Bailey bridges that we would like to build. These are things that the army personnel can do with a lot of pride and precision because it is in their line of training. They do not want to leave anything at all to chance. However, we are not seeing this department being active. I really do not know what has happened. I would be very happy to hear from the hon. Minister whether the Government is still interested in this department or not. If not, we can take it away and put it elsewhere. I believe that if we engaged this department, it would help us repair some of the bridges and roads. I am sure the Zambia Army can do a very good job. So, I would like to urge the hon. Minister, if he is still interested in this department, to make it visible. He should give the engineers in the Zambia Army enough leverage and space to prove themselves.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote on the Ministry of Defence. In the olden days, it was unheard of to debate the Ministry of Defence for obvious reasons. I know that the people in Parliament then knew that it was a taboo. This is because people would be tempted to stray into forbidden areas.

Mr Chairperson, perhaps, in future, when we want to debate the Zambia Defence Forces, we could do so in camera and switch off the microphones. This is because, sometimes, we need to talk about internal problems, but are restrained. We cannot debate at certain levels. However, the budget for the Zambia Defence Forces, at just about 4 per cent of the total Budget, is not enough because we have a lot of problems.

Sir, my friend, the Minister of Defence, Hon. Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba (GBM), has been to Turkey and I think he saw the level of mordernisation of the army there. I hope that he will implement what he learnt from there. We do not need to have an army that will be acting like warriors carrying spears if it has to fight a war. Warfare, in this modern time, is actually very advanced. We need to modernise ZAF. I think that this Government understands what I am talking about. I do not want to describe our situation because there are people out there listening.

Hon. Minister of Defence, please, modernise ZAF so that we can change the face of the Zambia Defence Forces. During the Cold War with Rhodesia then, it was very nice to see the First Republican President showcasing the arsenal of our army. I do not think that we have anything to showcase at the moment. We cannot have a parade and show off our army. I do not think that we can manage that now. We can end up showing things that have gone out of fashion. Having said that, hon. Minister of Finance, I would be the first person to support your supplementary budget if you showed us that something would be done to improve the situation.

Mr Chairperson, the Southern Province needs army barracks. Gone are the days when people did not want to put up army barracks in the Southern Province for fear of the African National Congress (ANC) overthrowing the Government. You need not fear that now. Suppose the Southern Province was attacked and the Kafue Bridge was blown up, how would you get the military to the Southern Province to defend the country? You should be prepared for military action in all the provinces.

Sir, I remember when the Chambeshi Bridge was blown up. I think that the attackers mistook it for the Kafue Bridge because they wanted to paralyse Zambia. There was a time when we thought that the ZNS would be able to take over a situation in Choma, but the ZNS Choma Camp is not something you can be pleased about. The ZNS camps used to be a showpiece because it was a properly-trained military wing.

Mr Chairperson, when Luangwa was attacked at Feira, the ZNS was able to fight back. The Rhodesians believed that the Green Beret were the best because of how they fought back and repelled the Rhodesian Army when it attacked us. Are we ready to fight at those levels? The plans that you have put in place do not include the ZNS. Why has it been left out?

Sir, this democracy that is being talked about has made us do things in such a way that we do not take care about the most basic things that we need for our country. I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Defence to give the Zambia Defence Forces utmost care because it is the property of the country. Do not ignore the statements from people who are telling you that the recruitment exercise is not properly done.

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: If you are comfortable with recruiting close friends and relatives, you should know that there can be a revolt. It is better to make every part of Zambia feel part of the system. The powers that be, in the Cabinet, should be advised that the issue of promotions in the Defence Forces must be looked at. This system where you elevate your cousin, Mr X, from the rank of Captain to Colonel is not right.

Mr Chairperson, for one to be promoted to the rank of Major, he/she must undergo certain training because he/she will command certain equipment which a Captain cannot. If you start ignoring these basic things, the qualified men and women will feel demoralised, which is dangerous for the country.

Sir, we should not feel shy to go back to the old system of doing things. Hon. Minister, you and your Deputy Minister saw how militarised Turkey and Cuba are when you visited those countries. They want to show off what they have in order to scare other countries. We cannot scare any country.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of taking army officers back to the barracks is important. We have officers living in Twapia, Ndola. You should go and see the barracks in Ndola where the wire fencing is collapsing. I am happy with the fence of wall at the Arakan Barracks. This goes to show that there are good officers there.

Mr Chairperson, we should appreciate that military officers are able to work and defend our country. These are people who do not have a work schedule. They do not knock off at a particular time. They get up and go whenever they are called upon.

Mr Chairperson, like the hon. Engineer said, the Builders Brigade in the Zambia Army and ZNS should be supported. Nowadays, if a bridge collapses, it takes time for it to be repaired. If we had a well-organised military, the Builders Brigade and Engineering Department would take care of collapsed bridges since they are the units that know where the machinery is and how it should be transported. If you do not care about the Engineering Department, then, what are you doing?

Mr Chairperson, military hospitals must be the best. When the Maina Soko Military Hospital was opened, it was something to be proud of. At the moment, I am afraid it is not worth calling a military hospital. It is now competing with the hospital for the Zambia Police Force somewhere in Lusaka. What has gone wrong? A military hospital is where you take certain equipment for the treatment of various diseases. You can cure diseases in a military hospital that you would not ordinarily cure in regular hospitals. You have to worry about biological warfare. Are we ready for that? What are we doing about our hospitals? Are our doctors properly trained? It is because of this that I am saying that the money we have allocated to the ministry is not enough. Hon. Minister, when you do not want to close the Vote for the ministry, you simply put the figure K1 to show that it is an open Vote. For all these activities that have been left out, you should be putting the figure K1 so that we know that the Vote is open.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister should look at the Budget for the United States of America (USA). Once the USA means to defend its country, it does not close the budget for defence. When there is a need to take military action, the President simply calls upon all the Senators …

Dr Scott: The Congressmen.

Mr Muntanga: … and Congressmen and informs them about the action to be taken.

Dr Scott: And it is done in no time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Yes, he is my friend. He understands.

The USA has ships on the seas. They have military planes that are taking off every thirty minutes and back. They are protecting the country while Zambia is a sitting duck.

Dr Scott: Are you going to compare us to such a nation?

Mr Muntanga: I am not comparing you to that nation, but you should do something positive.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can you address the Chair, please.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, this is the problem with these people. They should aspire to have something good.

Mr Pande: Correct.

Mr Muntanga: We should compare ourselves with the best. I support the initiative to send the hon. Minister of Defence to Turkey not because we are anywhere near Turkey, but because it can fight strong countries in the Arab Region where countries are building all sorts of military equipment and must defend itself from any military attack. When we sent the hon. Minister of Defence to Turkey, it does not mean that we are anywhere near that country. It means we must aspire to be like that country.

Sir, one thing I would like to say is that when we take over the Government in the next elections …

Hon. Government Members: Question.

Mr Muntanga: You can have as many questions as you want, but the time will come …

Hon. Government Members: In your dreams.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the people who want to debate whilst seated are themselves actually dreaming.

Sir, there was a time when people used to say that Mr Sata would never be President of this country. Even the First Republican President said that he was not fit to be President. However, today, the two of them travel together and tell the press a lot of things. So, those who are saying that we can only take over the Government in our dreams must be careful that they do not end up swallowing their words, especially now that things are not alright.

Mr Chairperson, some people are shouting, “Question,” and yet they have failed to manage even the simplest things like agriculture. That is what will make them lose the elections. They cannot even organise the distribution of seed and fertiliser, and yet they are shouting, “Question.”

Sir, I am talking about defence at the highest level. So, I am not surprised that some people are shouting, “Question” because it is too complex for them to understand.

Mr Chairperson, gone are the days when we used to say it was a taboo to talk about defence. I want this country to reach a point where every department in the military is taken care of. That way, the Zambia Defence Forces will be worth talking about.

Mr Chairperson, I believe that the Minister of Defence, Hon. G. B. Mwamba, tries hard to be fit. I have seen him try to run although it is too late for him to do so.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: If you made me Minister of Defence, I would be more fit than GBM.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

If you are through, it is better to wind up than to engage others.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want them to understand that I mean well for the Zambia Defence Forces and that I want something to be done to improve them. Let those who have got ears, hear if they have to remain in the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Kaputa, to debate in support of the Vote for this important ministry, the Ministry of Defence.

Sir, I would like to look at agricultural development under the ZNS Wing of the Zambia Defence Forces and their contribution to infrastructure development and many other roles, especially border patrols.

Mr Chairperson, I support this Vote for the men and women in uniform who continue to preserve, protect, defend and maintain the peace and security of this nation both within and around our borders. Allow me to comment on one of the many functions of the Zambia Defence Forces, and that is agricultural development.

Sir, the men and women in the ZNS would produce enough food for the people of this country if the ZNS was allocated sufficient funds. However, the allocations to the ministry are not sufficient. There are ZNS camps in almost all the provinces. For example, in Lusaka, there is the Airport Farm, which is a very big farm, in Kafue, there is Sopelo, there are camps in Kafue, Kasama, Mbala, Solwezi and so on and so forth. These are located in almost all the provinces not only to produce food, but also as training centres. So, basically, what they need is sufficient funding not only for them to grow maize, but also invest in irrigation facilities such as centre pivots, tractors and ploughs so that they can produce more than what we need.

Sir, with regard to the food basket, the production from these camps can help …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

___________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 26th November, 2013.