DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 3rd December, 2013 

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_____________ 

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

DEATH OF DR PATRICK MWEWA ANTHONY CHIKUSU, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KATUBA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY AND DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH

Mr Speaker: Hon Members, I wish to acquaint the House with a fact which is already sadly in the public domain that the House has lost one of its hon. Members, namely; Hon. Dr Patrick Mwewa Anthony Chikusu, Member of Parliament for Katuba Parliamentary Constituency and also Deputy Minister of Health. The late Hon. Dr Chikusu was diagnosed with a heart problem at the Coptic Hospital in Lusaka where he was admitted. He was later evacuated to Milpark Hospital in Johannesburg, South Africa on Monday, 2nd December, 2013, where he passed on at about 2200 hours on the same day.

Necessary arrangements are currently being made to bring the body of the late Hon. Dr Chikusu back home for burial. I wish to further inform the House that His Honour the Vice-President will, tomorrow, Wednesday, 4th December, 2013 move a Motion to enable the House place on record its condolences on the death of Hon. Dr Patrick Mwewa Anthony Chikusu, Member of Parliament for Katuba Parliamentary Constituency and Deputy Minister of Health. 

In this regard, a parliamentary delegation has been constituted to represent the House during the funeral and at the burial of the late hon. Deputy Minister. The condolences of the House will be conveyed to the bereaved family accordingly. 

May I now request all hon. Members to stand in their places and observe a minute of silence in honour of the memory of the late hon. Deputy Minister.

Hon. Members of Parliament stood in silence for one minute.

Mr Speaker: I thank you and you may be seated.

PLANTING OF TREE SEEDLINGS DONATED BY REFUGEE HELP DESK

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that the Refugee Help Desk has donated 200 tree seedlings to hon. Members of Parliament. This is in appreciation of the hospitality granted to Rwandan refugees in Zambia. In this way, they wish to participate in flagging off a programme of planting 12 million seedlings for the 2014 Planting Season.

Hon. Members, as you are aware, the National Tree Planting Programme will be officially launched around 15th December, 2013, by which time the House would have adjourned. This initiative by the Refugee Help Desk, therefore, gives us all an opportunity to participate in this important national event. Hon. Members may wish to note that according to environmental protection agencies, planting trees is a must if we want to save our planet, as trees not only remove harmful chemicals from the soil, but also help to reduce the greenhouse gases in our environment which lead to global warming. As responsible inhabitants of the planet, it is our prime duty to take care of our environment and life in it.

Hon. Members, I think it is extremely important for all of us to not only take a keen interest in the cause of environmental protection, but also to implement this ideal in action by planting new trees. This way, we will be making an important gesture to the world in demonstrating our global concern and at the same time making our contribution to this noble cause. By planting trees, we make up for the loss we have caused the planet to incur through the destruction of forest areas over the centuries due to the growth in population and other industrial activities.

Finally, I wish to urge all hon. Members of Parliament to visit the Parliament Orchard and pick up three tree seedlings as they go to their various constituencies so that they can plant them as a reminder of our commitment to create a better planet for ourselves and indeed posterity.

I thank you.

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: Hon Members, I have received communication to the effect that in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other national duties, Hon. Yamfwa Mukanga, Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House until further notice.

Thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
UPDATE ON THE STRIKING NURSES IN THE COUNTRY
The Minister of Health (Dr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to update this House, and the national at large, on the striking nurses in some public facilities of health in the country. This statement is not only a response to the point of order raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, but also seeks to address the concerns of the Zambian citizens in general, on this important issue. 

Mr Speaker, I speak with a heavy heart on this occasion, being the day that we have lost my Deputy Minister, Hon. Dr Patrick Chikusu, who died last night in Johannesburg. I join the Government and House in conveying condolences to the family of the late Hon. Dr Chikusu and pray that God gives them strength to endure this bereavement.

Mr Speaker, I am pleased to report that, as of today, all the institutions involved in the industrial action are back to full function. For this, I would like to thank all the nurses and other health workers especially those who stayed at work during this trying period. I must emphasise that the Government appreciates fully the work of the nursing community and their demonstrated concern to care for patients. Let me take this opportunity to outline the events as they unfolded and present the Government’s position at this stage. 

Progression of Salaries

Mr Speaker, the House might recall that in October, this year, I informed this august House and the nation at large on the reported work stoppage by nurses and midwives in some public health facilities in Zambia. I indicated, then, that following the changeover to the new salaries and conditions of service, which were effected in September, this year, some disparities had been observed, resulting in underpayment affecting a very small number of nurses and midwives. This is a problem associated with the migration from a fragmented salary structure to a single spine salary structure that the Government is currently implementing. 

Mr Speaker, in my last address, I informed this august House and the nation at large that in line with the pay reforms that the Government is implementing, the conditions of service of the lowest paid nurse and midwife had significantly improved between 2010 and 2013.  The overall improvement was in the range of 87.5 per cent and 107.82 per cent for the lowest paid nurse and midwife, respectively.

Mr Speaker, this august House may wish to note that the improvement in the conditions of service includes an increase from 5 per cent to 7 per cent of basic salary for commuted overtime allowance and an introduction of health personnel shift differential allowance paid at 15 per cent of basic salary. 

Illegal Work Stoppage by Nurses

Mr Speaker, despite these efforts by the Government to improve conditions of service for health workers, the nurses at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and other public health institutions such as the Levy Mwanawasa General Hospital, Livingstone General Hospital and Kasama General Hospital continued with illegal work stoppages, the first being at the UTH in October, 2013, where the nurses cited anomalies in the payment of the new salaries, which have since been addressed. The most recent illegal work stoppage by some health workers started on Friday, 22nd November, 2013, and was called off on Sunday, 1st December, 2013. The illegal work stoppage lasted for a period of ten days. The nurses who proceeded on the illegal work stoppage were demanding for the following:

(i)    100 per cent increment on the basic salary instead of the 4 per cent which had been awarded; 

(ii)    equal pay for equal work to apply and a reduction of nurse patient ratio or alternatively, to be awarded an extra patient allowance;

(iii)    K2,000 monthly housing allowance because accommodation in Lusaka is expensive;

(iv)    K2,000 monthly night duty allowance;

(v)    the Zambia Union of Nurses Organisation (ZUNO) to negotiate with the Government for nurses not in comparison with other employees or cadres; and

(vi)    to be treated as essential workers as the harmonisation for salaries according to qualification cannot work for nurses because of the duration of their training  and nature of job.

The Government’s Position

Mr Speaker, the work stoppage by the nurses was an illegal strike as no dispute had been declared between the Government and any of the health workers’ unions. The health workers are classified as essential workers under the Industrial and Labour Relations Act. Therefore, in order to ensure discipline and avoid the unnecessary disruption of public services, the Government took the following measures:

(i)    the nurses were given a deadline to report back to work by 1700 hours on 28th November, 2013;

(ii)    disciplinary action against all nurses who participated in the illegal work stoppage was instituted. This may include dismissal as provided for under the disciplinary code and procedures for handling such offences in the Public Service;
        
(iii)    to address the deficit that may be caused by the disciplinary measure, the ministry initiated the process of recruiting unemployed nurses who recently graduated;

(iv)    the collective bargaining process for the 2014 Conditions of Service with health workers’ unions commenced well before the agreed review date which was to be February, 2014.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, the work stoppage by some nurses in some public health institutions was illegal and should not be encouraged. While the Government appreciates the hard-work and dedication of all health professionals to render health care services to Zambian citizens, it has the responsibility to ensure that discipline is maintained in all public institutions. In this regard, I wish to urge all health workers to follow laid down procedures and existing laws whenever they have grievances to air.

Mr Speaker, the Government will continue with its commitment to address the various challenges that affect the health professionals. Further, I would like to commend the nurses and other health professionals who did not participate in the illegal work stoppage as I welcome the return of those who had downed their tools. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government is a listening Government …

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Kasonde: … and will respond urgently to their concerns.

Mr Speaker, I urge hon. Members to continue to uphold the fundamental principles of support to the welfare of public servants while preserving the discipline which is necessary for the peace and stability of our country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been delivered by the hon. Minister.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister ended his statement by talking about the PF being committed to ensuring service delivery in the health sector, I also want to start by saying that it is because the party promised heaven on earth …

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Ms Namugala: …that we are witnessing this indiscipline.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to tell us what steps the Government is going to take to ensure that the nurses do not go on an illegal strike again, thereby causing unnecessary deaths.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I repeat that the PF Government is committed to supporting health professionals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, as evidence of this, I can advance the fact that immediately upon taking office, the PF Government announced the need to change salaries and proceeded to adjust them after negotiations with the unions in the health sector. Further, the Government committed itself to a further revision, in 2014, or any adjustment that might be needed. The 100 per cent increment which the nurses are demanding for was surely not promised to them by the PF …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Dr Kasonde: … Government. In summary, there might have been a number of misconceptions and misunderstandings. This is the opportunity to clear those misconceptions and place on the table what the Government has offered.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutale (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if nurses are classified as essential workers. If they are classified as essential workers, what is the position of the Government when nurses go on an illegal strike?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I stated on behalf of the Government that the Industrial Relations Act which defines the functions and limitations of those who are essential workers clearly states that the punishment for going on an illegal strike is dismissal. It is on that basis that it was important to establish whether the action was legal or illegal. In this case, it has been discovered to be illegal because of the absence of a declaration of a dispute between the unions representing health workers and the Government. Using our discretion, we did not immediately proceed to dismiss the striking nurses. We did not negate the law.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, how many nurses were fired? Considering the fact that there is a critical shortage of nurses, is there room for negotiations with the nurses who were fired so that they can go back to work?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the number of nurses who have received letters of dismissal has not yet been compiled in full. We hope to have the number as soon as possible. Along with the letters, is a clear assurance that those who wish to return to the service are more than welcome to do so. It is up to them to indicate their intention to rejoin the service.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, can I find out why the Government went ahead to fire those nurses who went on strike instead of just giving them warning letters or negotiating with them to ensure that they did not go on strike again? 

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I fully agree with the point that there is need to do everything possible before the final action of dismissal. To this end, I can confirm that a number of meetings were held between the Government and the nurses as well as between the unions in the health sector and nurses. I personally went to the UTH to meet the nurses. We finally had no choice, but to set an ultimatum of 28th of November, at 17 hours, for them to return to work. I am of the belief that the Government did all it could to sort out this situation in the best possible way.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, as of this afternoon, we are aware that more than 100 nurses at the UTH have been dismissed by the Government. This has led to the operations at the UTH to be disrupted. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health whether his Government finds it prudent to discriminate against the nurses, considering that other workers who have gone on illegal strikes in this country have been protected by this Government, whereby it went to the extent of threatening investors that if they fired the workers who went on an illegal strike, their operating licences would be suspended. Why is the Government discriminating against the nurses to the extent that the operations of the UTH have been disrupted?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I shall resist the temptation to enter into debate on the various incidences that have occurred in this country which bear some resemblance to this particular episode. As for now we are talking about essential workers. I do not think that the workers Hon. Mwiimbu referred to are, indeed, essential workers as defined by the law. For this and other reasons, I would like to argue that each case must be taken on its own merit. In the case involving the essential health workers, we had no option, but to take the action we took.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Speaker, how many patients died at the UTH and elsewhere as a result of the nurses’ strike?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, there has been no case reported as a direct result of this episode. Some patients had the inconvenience of being requested to continue treatment at home because there was no one to look after them at the hospital. As of now, I repeat, no death, has been directly attributed to the industrial action.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, it was reported on television that, in Livingstone, disciplinary hearings for the nurses were conducted at night.  Does this not show that the Government is anxious to dismiss the labour force at the UTH and Livingstone General Hospital, respectively?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that some of the work involved was, indeed, carried out at night, both at the UTH and in Livingstone. It was the desire of the Government to sort out the matter in the soonest possible time. There was no point in delaying the judgement after individuals had presented reasons they were supposed to be exculpated from further action. So, it is true that, because of this, the meetings went on until 2300 hours in the night. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, a strike is one way of communicating a grievance. In light of what has happened, how will this Government be trusted by its partners, the trade unions, more especially that it took the President of a union to appeal to the workers to resume work so that enough time could be allocated to negotiation? After that, this Government went ahead to dismiss the workers. How can the Government be trusted by its partner, in this case, the labour movement, if it will be doing things contrary to the prerequisites of ensuring that industrial harmony is restored at the UTH?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) erred on two occasions. Firstly, it was the responsibility of this serious and highly respected organisation, which is the source of three of our Presidents, to explain to its members the implications of going on an illegal strike. It did not do that. Secondly, during the many meetings that we had with the unions in the health sector, we saw no support from the ZCTU. In the end, when the nurses had decided to respond to our call for them to return to work, the ZCTU, then turned up and tried to claim responsibility for the nurses having ended their strike. 

Sir, the ZCTU stands the risk of being irrelevant to the activities of its members or going into oblivion, if it is not careful the way it handles matters.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, presidential pronouncements normally transform into policy direction. On Saturday, 30th November, 2013, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Sata, at a radio station called Yangeni, actually urged the Zambians to prepare for what was going to happen when the nurses who did not report back for work would be fired. Can the hon. Minister confirm that as a result of that very clear presidential pronouncement which was actually transformed into policy direction, an unknown number …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … of nurses have been dismissed?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the policy that was referred to by His Excellency the President was formulated a long time ago. It was that policy that led to legislation regarding the role of the Industrial Relations Court in situations when essential workers down their tools. His Excellency the President was confirming Government actions and intentions. I do not see the need, at any point, for accusations to arise that new policies have been formulated.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, two years ago, when the MMD was in power, enrolled and registered nurses were getting less than K1,500. Can the hon. Minister inform the House what we have done in terms of increasing the salaries of the nurses so that the nation can know the truth.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to repeat that between 2010 and 2013 …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order on the left!

Dr Kasonde: … there has been an increase of remuneration for nurses of 87.5 per cent …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kasonde: … for those at the very basic salary scale.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, they say history repeats itself. When President Sata was hon. Minister of Health under the MMD, he fired doctors and the country never recovered from the effects of that. Now that they have started firing nurses, does the hon. Minister not think we might not recover from the effects of what has happened?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is totally entitled to interpret history on whether it repeats itself or it is a lesson for future experience. In this case, our lesson from previous experience has been to do what we have done. We do not see the interpretation of history repeating itself in this situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda (Muchinga): Mr Speaker, this Government promised to increase the salaries of all the civil servants by 200 per cent. I would like to find out why they have changed their minds when the nurses were even asking for less than 200 per cent. In his submission, the hon. Minister of Health said that the nurses were only asking for a 100 per cent salary increment.

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I would like to suggest that economising on the truth should not be a fundamental principle which should apply in this august House. The hon. Member has, in this case, economised far too much on the truth.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, one of the reasons the nurses have been going on strike is the fact that each nurse has too many patients to handle. What measures is the Government putting in place to address this situation before we experience another strike and other nurses are fired?

Dr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I have been on record as having announced a major increase in the output of all the training institutions for health workers. The output will continue increasing over the next few years. I am on record as having provided the context under which the increase will take place. I am a bit surprised that the hon. Member has not acquainted himself with all the information which I have been reporting to the House.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

SINKING BOREHOLES IN LUKULU WEST

205    Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Government would sink boreholes in the following wards in Lukulu West Parliamentary Constituency:

(a)    Kashizhi

(b)    Chinonwe

(c)    Kakwacha

(d)    Lutembwe

(e)    Lupui

(f)    Nyala

(g)    Mataba

(h)    Mitete; and 

(i)    Mayondoti.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr N. Banda): Mr Speaker, in the coming five years the Government will, with the support of the African Development Bank (ADB) develop water infrastructure targeting all the sixteen districts in the Western Province, including Lukulu West Constituency in Mitete District.

Sir, water infrastructure development shall involve the construction of boreholes equipped with hand pumps, hand-dug wells, piped water schemes and the rehabilitation of hand pumps and hand-dug wells.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, as critical as water is, are we supposed to wait for it for five years? Is five years not too much?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Speaker, in the 2014 Budget, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing will allocate boreholes to the districts in the Western Province, including Mitete.

I thank you, Sir.

NEW MOTOR VEHICLE AND EQUIPMENT FOR THE ZANIS OFFICE IN SESHEKE

Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting when a motor vehicle and new office equipment would be provided to the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) in Sesheke District.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Njeulu): Mr Speaker, the ZANIS Office in Sesheke already has a motor vehicle. However, it has broken down. Due to budgetary constraints, the district failed to repair the vehicle. It has since been taken to Mongu. When funds are made available, the motor vehicle will be repaired and sent back to Sesheke.

Sir, the new equipment that was procured in December, 2010, for all the districts, at the time, has since been delivered to Sesheke. The equipment includes both indoor and outdoor public address systems, amplifiers, DVD players, computers, printers, fax machines, desks, tables and filing cabinets. This equipment could not have been delivered to Sesheke earlier because there were no ZANIS staff at the time. However, the hon. Minister has now completed the recruitment of staff for all the districts, including Sesheke District. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, my point of order has to do with the Constitution-making process.

Sir, on Friday 14th October, 2011, during the Official Opening of the Eleventh Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Sata said:

“Mr Speaker, the PF Government attaches great importance to good governance and we are committed to delivering a new people-driven Constitution within ninety days. To this effect, we are in the process of consulting stakeholders with the view of establishing a Committee of Experts to review the recommendations of all the previous constitution review commissions in order to come up with a draft people’s Constitution. The Draft Constitution will be subjected to a referendum and subsequently presented to Parliament for enactment.”

Sir, I would like to quote an excerpt from the President’s Speech which was delivered to this House on Friday, 21st September, 2012. The President said:

“Mr Speaker, I am pleased to inform you and this august House that good progress has been made. A Technical Committee of competent men and women was appointed within ninety days of the PF Government assuming office. The Technical Committee has worked diligently and produced a first Draft Constitution in both English and seven local languages.”

Mr Speaker, finally, this, year His Excellency the President on Friday, 20th September, 2013, came back to this House and said:

“With regard to the constitution-making process, the Government remains committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution. The consultative process has been completed and the final Draft Constitution is expected by the end of this year. Therefore, the Government, in collaboration with other stakeholders will guide the process accordingly.”

Mr Speaker, answering a question by the hon. Member for Chembe, Hon. Mwansa Mbulakulima, on 3rd August, 2013, the Deputy Minister of Justice, Mr Ngosa Simbyakula …

Hon. Government Member: Dr.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I beg your pardon, I meant to say Dr Simbyakula. He indicated that the Referendum Process on the adoption of the Constitution would depend − which was a departure from what the President said − on the format and content of the Draft Constitution which was going to be presented by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution to the President. He also said that the Government would comply with the existing provisions of the Referendum Act Cap 14 of the Laws of Zambia when holding the referendum.

Sir, the same afternoon, the hon. Minister of Justice, Mr Wynter Kabimba, SC., indicated that: 

“The Committee is about to wind up its work on the Constitution-making process. However, under the Inquiries Act, the Committee is only mandated to submit a report to the President who is the appointing authority.”

Mr Speaker, it is clear that there is a stand-off between the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution Committee and the PF Government. The stand-off is to the effect that the committee was asked to only sign ten copies and not to put this document in the public domain. It is the view of the Government that in accordance with the Inquiries Act which I have quoted here, the President, being the appointing authority, must first see the document before anything happens to it. 

Sir, on 30th November, 2013, in Mansa, the President who was seated with the hon. Minister for the Southern Province at Yangeni Radio Station made a public announcement that:

“We do not need a new Constitution. The current Constitution only needs to be   
 amended.”

Hon. Opposition Members interjected. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, my point of order is on the conflicting statements that I have read before you. Is the Government in order to be toying around with a document that determines the lives of Zambians when the PF ascended to power after convincing the Zambians that it would enact the Constitution within ninety days of their being ushered into power?

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Minister of Justice is directed to issue a ministerial statement before this House next week on Tuesday.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, the information on the ground is that this vehicle is about to be sold. Is this ministry telling us that we should not be getting the responses from the Floor of this House seriously?

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Kapeya): Mr Speaker, apparently, we do not operate on rumours. If there is a situation in that line, we could have been told by those responsible for the repair of the vehicle. What we know is that the vehicle is undergoing repairs. The delay for the repairs to take place has been caused by the non-availability of funds.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I hope the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting is aware that they are answering this question for the fourth time. For how long is this vehicle going to be under repairs? How long are we going to wait for the money for the repairs to come? It is now three years from the time the same answer was given.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, as clearly indicated in the answer that has been provided by the hon. Deputy Minister, it is the district which was supposed to undertake the repairs of this vehicle. However, because the district had no funds to carry out the repair works, the vehicle was taken to the provincial headquarters. At the moment, the provincial headquarters has no funds to undertake the repairs as well. We are, therefore, promising that should the funds be readily available, we will definitely repair the vehicle.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, how much money is required to repair the vehicle?

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I can state the amount of money involved when I am given enough time to go and get the facts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister be categorical in his response. Is this vehicle earmarked for sale?

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, this vehicle is earmarked for repairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, which garage is holding on to this vehicle?

Interruptions 

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I can only get that information from the Provincial Information Officer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, has this vehicle got a problem with the engine or the brakes?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Or cylinders?

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I am yet to find out the problem from the Provincial Information Officer. If it is a diesel engine, I will ask the hon. Member to undertake the repairs.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister does not seem to have the full information about this vehicle. If the vehicle is earmarked for repairs, I think the hon. Minister should have been in a position to give us the exact amount of money required for the works. When is this vehicle going to be repaired?

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, I have clearly indicated that I am yet to get the full details of the amount of money involved. I will get back to the hon. Members of Parliament when I have the full details.

I thank you, Sir.

_________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 80 – Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education – K8,599,147,755).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Chairperson, before I start my debate, allow me, on behalf of the people of Kaputa to convey my sincere condolences to the Patriotic Front (PF) Government, the House and the family of our departed brother, Hon. Patrick Anthony Mwewa Chikusu, Member of Parliament for Katuba and Deputy Minister of Health. 

Mr Mulusa: A Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Member of Parliament!

Mr Ng’onga: Yes, an MMD Member of Parliament.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, on Friday, I was supporting the Vote for the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. Before we adjourned, I had just finished talking about education being an equaliser and that the people of Kaputa desire Kaputa Secondary School to be opened in 2014. I also mentioned that this particular area has had no secondary school of its own since Independence. We definitely want to have a secondary school of our own in Kaputa area.

Mr Chairperson, I had gone on further to look at the teachers’ deployment and transfers. Teachers must be deployed in a very balanced way. This is because the teachers are models in all the places where they are sent, including the rural areas. In the past, places like Kaputa have been disadvantaged in the sense that those teachers that one can call the best teachers are never sent there. All we get, sometimes, are teachers who are probably facing disciplinary charges. They are sent to Kaputa for the sake of being punished. This is definitely not supposed to be happening. We need to have teachers who can raise the status of Kaputa area and the communities around there.

Allow me, Mr Chairperson, to also comment on community schools. I remember that even last year, I commented on them. If it were possible and if budgets could allow, nobody in this country would want to send their children to community schools. We have some community schools in Kaputa and when you go to these schools as a leader, it is a very sorry sight. In community schools, some children sit on the floor while others sit on bricks. The teachers in community schools do not even have teaching materials.     Some of the teachers in community schools are Grade 9 pupils. As I indicated earlier on, if education has to be an equaliser, then we definitely must raise the standard of education in the rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, an area called Mataka in Kaputa has no school fifty years after Independence. We have since mobilised the community to put up a school in the area. If this school is not recognised by the Government, we will have to go back to the community mode where we will have to use untrained teachers. We have to make a difference so that the people of Mataka can also enjoy the benefits which education brings.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to look at the provision of information technology for our children. As I speak, for us in Kaputa, computers are only found in offices and not in the schools where most of our children are going. People in Lusaka get employed through online interviews. A person in Kaputa cannot get such jobs because he/she has no knowledge about computers. I know that Zambia Information and Communications Technology Authority (ZICTA) is working with the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education to provide computer laboratories. I, therefore, urge them to also provide these facilities to the schools in Kaputa. Again, unfortunately, most of the time, you find that this sort of infrastructure is in urban centres which have private individuals who are putting money together to set up computer laboratories where children can go and learn about information technology. We also need this infrastructure in the rural areas. Schools like Kaputa, Luwingu and Mporokoso Secondary schools should be able to have these computer laboratories so that the children there should be able to learn about information technology especially in this age. We had remained behind in the 1970s and 1980s. However, I think in the twenty-first century, we should not remain behind. Our children must be able to be called for interviews where they should be able to pass. However, this may not happen anytime soon. 

Mr Chairperson, I have only spoken about the negative things. Allow me to also comment on the positive things which this Government has put in place.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, I commend the focus of our President …

Mr Sikazwe: That is right.

Mr Ng’onga: … on infrastructure development, especially in secondary schools.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: As I speak, Mr Chairperson, about eighty-three secondary schools are being constructed at different stages. About thirty-two secondary schools will be opened either by the end of this year or in 2014.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, this is commendable. 

Mr Chairperson, I am pretty sure that it is not only the secondary schools that the President and the hon. Minister and his work force have focused on, but there are also other infrastructure projects that have been planned for. We know that the construction of the six universities countrywide namely Chalimbana, Paul Mushindo, Robert Kapasa Makasa, Palabana, Mukuba and Kwame Nkrumah are all at different stages. 

Mr Chairperson, there is also Luapula University which is going to be constructed.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, as we complete these universities, we will also require the construction of other ones in other areas. 

Before I sit down Mr Chairperson, I want to say that we need a technical school in any one of these areas namely, Kaputa, Nsama, Nchelenge or Chienge. We need a good technical school in any one of those areas which should be able to cater for the technicians. We do not have any as I speak, and children have to go to technical schools in Mansa or Kasama, which are quite far. So, this technical school is required so that our children in that particular area can also acquire skills and be impacted with knowledge that will move them on as independent children of this nation.

With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Let me have one more person to debate. We have had seven debaters on this issue and I think I will need one more. Hon. Simbao.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Chairperson, I am glad to be given the opportunity to debate on this particular Vote, especially going by what the hon. Minister said concerning the enrollments and the final number of children that actually finish school. The hon. Minister said that, in 2012, they had 94.5 per cent primary enrollment and only 23 per cent secondary enrollment.

Mr Chairperson, you can see that so many pupils are dropping out of school and I understand that the quality of education in Zambia is the worst in the region. I was shocked to learn that even Botswana has a higher quality of education than Zambia. Definitely going by the numbers that the hon. Minister has given, I think it proves a point that our education system is of very poor quality. I would like to give some hints to the hon. Minister on certain things that I am sure he already knows. It is very common now for a Zambian child to start school at five years instead of seven years. Most children are starting school at five years and they perform very well. I, therefore, would like the hon. Minister to reconsider the old policy of children starting school at seven years. 

Sir, the hon. Minister must reconsider pushing forward Grade 7 Examinations. A lot of pupils who sit for the Grade 7 Exams while still in grade 6 do very well. There is something wrong here which needs to be corrected. I have followed up on most of them. They have done well even at Grade 12. In this case, a child who has started school at five years old and writes his or her Grade 7 Exam while still in Grade 6 will finish school at fifteen years old.  

Sir, the hon. Minister should look at what is happening now. I would encourage him to change the policy so that children start school at five years instead of seven. Furthermore, Grade 7 Exams should be brought forward to Grade 6 because by the time a pupil finishes Grade 6, he or she would have covered enough material to pass the Grade 7 Exam, as has been proven. 

Sir, the hon. Minister must re-look at the fact that students who study medicine spend too much time in school. They do not need seven years. The sixth year is not productively structured. Most of those that have done medicine have found the sixth year to be a waste of time. They should either enhance this year by fusing it with whatever little is in there in the other six years or completely do away with it because students go for seven years with one year almost wasted. I believe and trust that the hon. Minister can look into this issue.  

Sir, still on the issue of medicine, the hon. Minister must consider transferring the School of Medicine to the Ministry of Health. The Ministry of Health handles other schools which handle the training of nurses and clinical officers.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is very well versed in training health personnel. 

In addition, many of the lecturers that are teaching at Ridgeway Campus are actually Ministry of Health and not Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education staff. For me, it would make a lot of sense for the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order on my left!

You are consulting too loudly. 

Mr Simbao: … to do himself some good by simply transferring the School of Medicine to the Ministry of Health. It will fit in perfectly in the operations of the ministry.  

As I said earlier, the ministry is now too big, making the quality of education poor. The quality will probably get worse because the ministry is too big compared to the Ministry of Health which has become smaller as a result of moving some departments to another ministry. It will, therefore, be beneficial for the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education to agree to transfer the training of doctors to the Ministry of Health. 

Mr Chairperson, I believe that the education system in this country has not really noticed the trends in the economy. We are training people who have nowhere to go. Their skills have not yet been factored into the economy and yet we are training them such that when they graduate, they are going back to the same old jobs. They cannot be promoted because there are no positions for them.  

Mr Chairperson, the education system has simply concentrated on training everyone it can. I believe that the system can do better if it seriously concentrated on certain skills or professions that would do really well in the present economy. I would like to ask the hon. Minister to re-look at most of the training, especially at university level where they are training a lot of students that have nowhere to go after the training. 

Mr Chairperson, I am concerned with the terrible teacher/pupil ratio in public schools. Some schools, especially in rural constituencies, have one teacher for the whole year. One tends to wonder what is going on. This is probably why we have this poor quality of education in public schools in the country, a situation which is not there in private schools. I believe that the teacher/pupil ratio is very bad for public schools and the hon. Minister must seriously look at it. 

Sir, the hon. Minister talked about recruiting 2,000 teachers. This is a drop in the ocean.  Do we not have enough teachers to recruit? Where is the problem? He also talked about upgrading 220 primary schools to secondary schools. I would like to know how possible this is because each primary school that will be upgraded will need twenty teachers at least. Therefore, about 4,400 teachers will be needed for the 220 schools to be upgraded. Where will you get them because already you can only employ so few per year? Where are you going to get the teachers for these new secondary schools? 

Sir, this will create a very big problem not just for the hon. Minister, but also for all of us in locations where these schools will be situated. There will be no teachers and yet pupils will be there. The hon. Minister must seriously look at what he is suggesting because the present secondary schools are not fully manned. I would rather he firstly looked at the shortage of teachers in the existing schools before focusing on creating more secondary schools. 

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about school furniture. Someone talked about community schools. Maybe, that Member is fortunate enough to have community schools in his area with desks. In my constituency, pupils in public primary schools sit on bricks and even on the floor. School furniture is very important. I wonder where the hon. Minister will get the money to furnish 220 secondary schools because, already, a lot of schools, especially in my constituency, have no desks. 

Mr Chairperson, there are no teachers’ houses in most of my primary schools. You might find three or four which are built by the community and not the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. I wonder when he is thinking of upgrading these 220 primary schools to secondary school. He needs at least fifteen to twenty houses for each of these schools so that he can match the number of teachers he needs to employ. I really wonder where he is going to find money to do this when the present schools have a very big shortage of teachers’ houses. I mean most of the teachers are still living in grass-thatched houses in these rural constituencies where we come from. No wonder you find only one teacher at a given school because most of them run away. They cannot manage to stay in those houses.

Mr Chairperson, I have noticed that he proudly talked about building universities. He is building two universities in Muchinga which is very good. He is also building one university in Luapula, but nothing in the Northern Province. I wonder what the problem is because he never even touched on it. He mentioned other provinces, but not the Northern Province. I do not know if the province has ever crossed his mind. I do not know what has happened to the Northern Province all of a sudden. It was a darling of this country but, all of a sudden, has disappeared off the scene. It is no longer on the radar. We would like to appeal to the hon. Minister not to forget about the Northern Province. We are there. We are still alive. I would be very happy if he considered the needs of the Northern Province when planning.

Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to realise that research and technology have received the least attention in the budget. When you look at the headquarters’ allocation to the two areas, you will find that they only received 3 per cent. Out of the total allocation to the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, the two areas only received 0.25 per cent. From the total Budget, it is only 0.05 per cent which has been allocated to research and technology. If this section is not receiving attention, we are going nowhere as a country. I even feel sad when I look at the operations of the Department of Science and Technology. Two years ago, it was a ministry on its own. Now, it has been combined with the Ministry of Education and has only received 0.025 per cent of the ministry’s budget. Now these are the areas that are of interest to this country. If we are not going to look at research and technology seriously, this country will go nowhere. It seems we have totally forgotten about where other people invest so as to make progress in an economy. It is in the areas of research and technology. I would like to tell the Minister that it is not too late to makes changes. He must try and see how he can improve the funding to this particular department.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank Hon. Banda for Lumezi, Hon. I. Bwalya for Lupososhi, Hon. Mufalali for Senanga, Hon. Mucheleka for Lubansenshi, Hon. Hamududu for Bweengwa, Hon. Professor Lungwangwa for Nalikwanda, Hon. Ng’onga for Kaputa and Hon. Simbao for Senga Hill for their invaluable contributions on the debate of the estimates of expenditure for the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. Let them know that we value their support and suggestions. Allow me to briefly deal with salient issues as they arose from the debate. Some issues will be tackled privately since some of the hon. Members who debated claimed to be my personal friends. Some will get their answers from the estimates that we are about to present.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Isaac Banda and Hon. Mufalali both touched on issues to do with a Zambian contractor which has to failed to deliver to their expectations. This is the contractor called Gabman which was contracted to build five primary schools in the Eastern and Western provinces. The schools are Kapekesa and Womi in Lundazi; Shekela, Lasikakenge and Mumbula schools in the Western Province. The contractor abandoned the projects. We found this problem in 2011. The ministry then wrote to the Ministry of Justice in 2012 for authority to terminate the contract. The Ministry of Justice has since given us that authority. It also, however, advised us to seek further authority from the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) which we have now. The ZPPA has given us a go ahead. The ministry’s tender committee has confirmed the termination of the contract with Gabman for the five projects. We have decided to instruct the Provincial Education Officers (PEOs) for the Eastern and Western provinces to build the five schools and teachers’ houses. We have also arranged for the upgrading of the mud and grass- thatched facilities in the provinces. That will be a quicker way of proceeding.

Mr Chairperson, many speakers have spoken about community schools, their state and need to send trained teachers there. The ministry is already doing that. Uncompleted school projects were also talked about. Some hon. Members talked about the shortage of teachers, blown-off roofs, lack of laboratory facilities, the transfer of teachers and the need for information and communication technology (ICT) in schools, particularly those in rural Zambia. These are valid observations. Let me say that, we, in the ministry, are very committed to leave a definite mark on trying to solve some these challenges.

Mr Chairperson, most of the challenges can best be tackled at provincial and district levels. We found a system of disorder from the head teacher’s office to the headquarters which we are trying to correct. I would like hon. Members of Parliament to work closely with the offices of the DEBs because that is where the key is. We will be strengthening the system so that it can tackle various challenges.

Mr Chairperson, now that we have a vibrant and new Teaching Service Commission, we are slowly getting on top of things. The promotion of teachers is now more on merit and we want this to continue.

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the new universities. I am glad Hon. Simbao also talked about them. There is no need for us to politicise the construction of new universities. Let us not gain political mileage over these universities. The Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto is very clear on this issue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Phiri: Sir, we are committed to the implementation of the plans which are contained in the PF Manifesto. Each province will have a university.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Sir, we are determined to plant universities in all the provinces. We cannot do it all at once. 

Mr Mwanza: Paul Mushindo.

Dr Phiri: Sir, someone has mentioned Paul Mushindo University. We are not going to manage to build many universities at once.

Mr Mucheleka: Finshi mulelanda naimwe ba Phiri?

Dr Phiri: Sir, we are now changing the mode of doing things because we want these universities to answer to the challenges and needs of our people in each geographical area. We are looking for contractors who will design and build the universities. Again, let me repeat that, not beginning in the Southern, Northern, Luapula and North-Western provinces does not mean that we are ignoring those area.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Dr Phiri: Sir, we are determined, as a Government, to provide these facilities in all the provinces. 

Interruptions

Dr Phiri: Sir, that must not be doubted at all.

Interruptions

Dr Phiri: Sir, since when did the Northerners… 

Mr Mucheleka: Question.

Dr Phiri: … start hating each other?

Mr Mwiimbu:  What?

Dr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I am surprised that Hon. Simbao and Hon. Mucheleka can now claim that the Northern Province is being neglected. Since …

Hon. Opposition Members:  Yes.

Dr Phiri … when did the people of Northern Province start hating each other?

Interruptions

Dr Phiri: Sir, is it because of the creation of Muchinga Province?

Hon. Opposition Members: It is because of the PF.

Dr Phiri: Sir, nothing has changed. What have been created are just artificial boundaries. Our people remain the same and their focus is to see this Government deliver. My assurance is that we shall deliver.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

    Dr Phiri: Sir, while we have been quarrelling about the crisis in the education sector today and the two universities for forty-nine years, our friends elsewhere have moved on. The 1980s and 1990s which Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa tried to remind us of were lost decades. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Sir, at the rate we are going, I do not think anybody would say we will be unable to catch up. We are now being compared unfairly to Botswana, for example, but check who changed the education sector of that country. It is the Zambians. Why can we not congratulate ourselves? It is now time to emulate Botswana. However, at the same time, let us have those multi-nationals in Botswana and elsewhere come and invest heavily in Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Sir, I agree with Prof. Lungwangwa that we are faced with many challenges. Let these challenges give us a grand opportunity to transform the education sector. As I said in my statement, we have already started transforming the education sector and I cannot agree with him more that raising the education budgetary allocation is the answer. However, we must also be aware that as we move this education sector to a higher level, there is the diploma disease and also the deteriorating academic standards in higher institutions. We hope that with the establishment of the Higher Education Authority we can start to deal with such issues properly.

Sir, the other lecture which I must say I admired was from Hon. Hamududu. Every cry that Hon. Hamududu made was essentially ours. He reminded us that education is a social and economic ministry and, so, we must let our boys and girls be in school. Let us invest in our children so that they get primary, secondary and university education. That is the goal that this Government will try to attain. We will take care of the Mataka area story which we heard from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaputa.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Sir, I will work with the youthful badge which Hon. Hamududu referred to. 

As I said, Hon. Hamududu, your cry is loud and clear. We, in Government, share that cry with you. We are united on this front and, when united, we can make a difference in the education sector. Let there be less lamentations but a lot of consultations between hon. Members of Parliament and us in the education field.

Mr Chairperson, there are brilliant suggestions that I have heard from hon. Members of Parliament and I am the first to say, we shall take on board those brilliant ideas. Where we are not very clear, we will go to the hon. Members to individually consult them so …

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: … that, together, we can move the education sector forward.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Sir, education remains the only key to the livelihood of our children in the future. You and I might be going out soon, but we should make sure that our children compete at global level. This world is becoming a global village. Without ICT, a Zambian child would be disadvantaged. As I offer my services, everyone should be aware that I am running a ministry and not an individual kantemba.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

Dr Phiri: Sir, I can assure hon. Members of Parliament that, where I can, I will help, but where I cannot, I will explain why.

With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I say thank you for the contributions from the hon. Members and, together, let us march on and see whether we can make a difference. Challenges are opportunities for us to prove that we are concerned with what is happening in the education sector.

I thank, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Ema ministers aya!

Vote 80/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/02 – (Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education – Human Resource and Administration – K33,974,344).

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

There is a lot of …

Mr Mulomba: … on page …

The Chairperson: Order, I am talking!

Mr Mulomba resumed his seat.

The Chairperson: You know that the rules are that you are supposed to sit down when I am calling for order in the House. There are a lot of loud consultations in here. Can we have order.

Hon. Mulomba was about to ask a question, but there was a point of order from Hon. Mwiimbu. Hon. Mwimbu, your point of order is granted. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, who was my president of the union when we were at the University of Zambia (UNZA), in order not to address the plight of UNZA as he winds up debate since that issue has been raised by hon. Members and he has not addressed it at all? Is he in order to keep quiet and yet when he was a member of the union at UNZA, he was very vigilant over such issues?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Now, it is difficult for me to make a ruling because that point of order has come at the time when we are considering individual items. So, it is difficult for me to ask him to go back. Anyway, the hon. Minister will take note of that maybe in future, he will address that issue.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Hon. Mulomba, you may continue, please.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5026, Activity 025 – Transfers and Appointments – Nil. I have noticed that in this year’s budget this activity was allocated K115,019, but for next year’s budget there is nothing. My concern is: Does this mean that there will be no transfers next year?

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Chairperson, before I say anything, on my own behalf and on behalf of the people of Mwense Constituency, whom I represent, I just want to relay heartfelt condolences to Mrs Chikusu, the children and the family on the demise of their beloved one. May his soul rest in peace.

Sir, coming back to the question of transfers and appointments, this activity has been moved to page 825, Programme 5026, Activity 003 - Recruitment and Replacement (I) – K700,000. 

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 80/02 ordered stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/03 ordered stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Vote 80/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/24 (Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education – Regional Headquarters – Western Province – K51,650,759).

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary Schools (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000. How many primary schools is the Government targeting with this small amount that it has allocated?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Chairperson, this amount will carter for fifteen schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 80/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/32 – (Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education – Regional Headquarters – Luapula Province – K50,414,632).

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, may I please draw the attention of the House to page 894, Programme 5011, Activity 233 – Construction of Secondary Schools (upgrading) – K32,018,565. What are the determining factors to justify the figure of K32,018,565 for the allocation to this particular activity?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Chairperson, this allocation is meant to address the issue of the policy direction for the ministry of upgrading 220 basic schools in 2014. Each province has been given the same level of funding which is K32,018,565. Each province is expected to upgrade the number of basic schools that will be communicated to it at the right time but, in total, it will be 220.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I deliberately asked that question in order for us to apply some thinking. My assumption, which is true, is that the needs for each province vary. What was the justification of putting a uniform figure for all provinces because the size, number of schools and population of various provinces is not identical?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Chairperson, this why I said the number of basic schools that are going to be upgraded in each province will be communicated at the appropriate time, but what we are saying is that we have 220 basic schools countrywide that are going to be upgraded. We will take into account the points that each province has a variety of needs, different population sizes and education needs. I am sure we are going to have a Provincial Education Officers’ (PEOs) meeting, once the hon. Minister is ready, at which we are going to address Hon. Nkombo’s concerns.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I also seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 233 –Construction of Secondary Schools (upgrading) – K32,018,565. Is the hon. Minister implying that the Government is going to change the activity-based approach which we are using for this Budget?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Chairperson, we are not going to change that approach. Variations can be made with support of the Secretary to the Treasury.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane stood up.

The Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: You are confusing me in the process. Nonetheless, I will allow you to ask your question.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary Schools (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000. This is for the entire province and it is uniform for all provinces. Assuming that a province has nine districts, that amounts to K400,000 per district. When will the ministry be able to replace mud and pole structures with acceptable ones? In any case, is it not more sensible to slow down on the construction of new universities and fix the foundation?

Dr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, it is also logical to balance things so that those coming from the bottom find something well prepared upstairs. However, the hon. Member’s concern has been recorded. On the other hand, this activity is basically an exercise that will show us the way forward. We will learn lessons from this activity so that, in 2015, we are more focused. Due to constraints in finances, we said let every province have a feel of the activity that we intend to have at full blast in 2015.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu and Mr Nkombo stood up.

The Chairperson: No, I will not re-open debate on this Vote. I only allowed the hon. Member for Liuwa because you said he had been standing for a long time and I realised I could not see him because of the tusks on the Table.

Vote 80/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Vote 80/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/36 – (Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education – Regional Headquarters – North-Western Province – K50,265,320).

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000. While we appreciate the test model they are trying to use, I think that the testing has been done and we are aware of the problems that are in these primary schools. Is this K3,600,000 which has been allocated to the North-Western Province enough to cover the many schools which  are made of pole and mud?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000, like the hon. Minister said, this money may not be enough, but what we want, as a ministry, is to test the direction going forward to 2015 in terms of what output we are going to get with K3,600,000. I recognise what the hon. Member is saying about the money not being enough. Since the ministry is huge, it has so many priorities. What is important for us is to balance those priorities in terms of the way we allocate the funds.  Based on that, we allocated K3,600,000 to the activity. However, we recognise the hon. Member’s view that the money is not enough.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000. Does it make sense to give K3,600,000 to the province to cater for the districts? Does it make sense?

The Chairperson: Your question is understood.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000, let me just repeat what I said. We have said that the money is not enough. In the old currency, this allocation is K3.6 billion. This money is not enough to cater for all the needs of the pole and mud schools in the districts. However, the DEBS will be able to prioritise which pole and mud schools they will be able to work on with the K3,600,000. We recognise that the money is not enough and probably the Budget for 2015 allowing, we will do better.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000, I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister that instead of this money being for the replacement …

The Chairperson: Order! I do not think that is the idea or the route that we should take. The point where you would be suggesting is long gone.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000. I just want to find out whether testing is part of the planning in the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!  

Dr Phiri: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5011, Activity 243 – Primary (Replacement of Pole and Mud Structures) – K3,600,000, whatever word you use, we would like to learn from this activity on the way forward in 2015.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 80/36 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/37 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/38 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/39 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/40 – (Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education – Regional Headquarters – Southern Province – K49,153,612).

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5005, Activity – Grants to District Education Boards – K547,081. I observe here that the figures for this year are exactly the same as those for next year. There is absolutely no change. I would like to know whether or not there is no inflation in the Southern Province which would dictate that the grants to institutions be lifted up slightly.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Chairperson, if you go through the grants which have been granted to many of the districts, you will notice that they have remained static. The reason, as the hon. Members of Parliament are aware, is that our focus for 2014 was to allocate more money on the construction of secondary schools as well as some hostels at UNZA and Copperbelt University (CBU).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Kampyongo: Mike on, iwe!

Laughter

Mr Livune: … on Page 914 starting from Programme 5005, Activity – Grants to District Education Boards – K547,081, notwithstanding the reasoning behind the hon. Deputy Minister’s explanation, I think that the question has not been answered. In different districts, there are operational challenges. Already, at the current levels, …

The Chairperson: What is your question?

Mr Livune: Sir, the question is: Why has the ministry not considered increasing these amounts so that the districts can operate effectively because currently …

The Chairperson: Order! The question is taken.

Laughter    

Mr Mabumba: Mr Chairperson, it was not easy for us to increase the grants due to Budget constraints. However, I just want to request hon. Members of Parliament to bear with us that, going forward, probably, for 2015, that consideration shall be made. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 100 – Policy and Planning – K60,652. In this year’s Budget, we have K111,452. I fail to understand why …

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.
    
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Livune: Sir, when you gave me the opportunity to speak, Hon. Kampyongo was heckling from your left side. Is he in order to have heckled at me from that position? I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order!

Why did you have to wait until now? Why did you not raise that point of order when you heard him heckle? Let us follow the rules of the game. That point of order cannot be sustained.

You may continue, Hon. Mulomba.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 100 – Policy and Planning – K60,652.  My concern is that in this year’s budget, there is K111,452 for this activity, but next year, there is a proposal for K60,652. Why has there been a reduction in the allocation for this important activity?

The Deputy Minister of Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Prof. Willombe): Mr Chairperson, this is due to reduced activities for 2014.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 80/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 87/01 - (Anti-Corruption Commission – Headquarters – K83,839,868).

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga) (on behalf of the Minister of Home Affairs (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to convey my heartfelt condolences to the family of Hon. Dr Patrick Chikusu who passed away in the Republic of South Africa (RSA). We will surely miss him.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to congratulate my brother, Hon. Kambwili, for working so hard to attain a degree in Business Administration.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: From where?

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the estimates of expenditure for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) for the year 2014.

Mr Chairperson, the PF Government continues to place the fight against corruption high on its agenda.

Mr Livune: Question!

The Chairperson: Order!

Can I have order on both my right and left.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, this is evident in the Government’s continued unwavering support to the ACC and the fight against corruption in general. The PF Government is focused on bringing meaningful development to all parts of our country …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, one way in which that can be achieved is through the promotion of integrity, accountability and transparency in the management of public resources. The fight against corruption remains cardinal in achieving this. However, the PF Government realises that the ACC cannot and should not shoulder all the burden of fighting corruption alone. It is a burden we must all shoulder. The Government, civil society, the Church, co-operating partners and all well-meaning Zambians should all render their collective efforts in order to effectively combat the scourge.

Mr Chairperson, the operations of the ACC for which these estimates are presented are in line with its mandate as stipulated in the Anti-Corruption Act No 3 of 2012. For the year 2014, the commission will place its focus on the following activities:

(i)    procurement of own office accommodation for Lusaka, Chipata, Livingstone and Mongu provincial offices over the medium term. The commission has so far secured office accommodation for Solwezi, Kasama and Kitwe;

(ii)    decentralise the operations of the commission to Muchinga Province and at least to two other districts in other provinces;

(iii)    work towards revising the organisational structure and implementing the same in phases;

(iv)    scaling up capacity building in financial investigations and asset tracing competencies for personnel in the investigations, legal and prosecution departments;

(v)    conduct impact surveys, corruption diagnostic surveys and also research on corruption in selected sectors to get useful feedback on the interventions being undertaken to fight corruption under the auspices of the National Anti-corruption Policy …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The people on my extreme right, I have been ignoring you, but you have continued consulting loudly. I do not want to mention names here. You are disturbing the hon. Minister who is making his policy debate.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mukanga: Thank you, Sir, for your protection.

(vi)    decentralise the function of the commission’s legal department by stationing some prosecutors in the Copperbelt and Southern Province regional offices;

(vii)    consolidate the National Integrity Programme by developing and implementing durable corruption prevention measures for efficient and effective service delivery. The focus will be on assessing the effectiveness of the current integrity committees in tackling issues of corruption and taking measures to improve their effectiveness;

(viii)    scaling up the community relations effort in conducting integrity education in schools, the  community and the general Civil Service. The aim of this effort is to increase levels of integrity in the country;

(vix)    partner with the Curriculum Development Centre and introduce topics on anti-corruption issues at middle basic school level and to further make such topics compulsory at secondary school level instead of the current situation.

(ix)    scale-up the dissemination of the National Anti-Corruption Policy by fully implementing the stakeholder involvement approach through the training and co-ordination of the National Anti-Corruption Policy (NACP) dissemination focal officers in the stakeholder institutions.

Mr Chairperson, it is my belief that the implementation of the above programmes and interventions in 2014, and beyond, will add huge impetus to the anti-corruption crusade in Zambia. 

Sir, the budget allocation for the commission for the year 2014 is K83,839,868 against K58,800,820 allocated in 2013. This translates into a 43 per cent increase from 2013. This increase will carter for the effective execution of the core functions of the commission and see the commission decentralise its operations to Muchinga Province, as well as to Nakonde and Chirundu Border points.

Mr Chairperson, the increase in funding to the commission will also enable it to increase its outreach and sensitisation programmes so as to reach more parts of the country with the anti-corruption message. I wish to reiterate that the PF Government will continue to support the ACC in every way possible in order to further strengthen the institution and equip it to effectively carry out its mandate.

Sir, the PF Government remains steadfast in its resolve to combat the corruption scourge. It is in this light that I urge all hon. Members of this House to continue supporting this campaign. I also call upon all Zambians to be part of the fight against corruption and other related crimes. The effects of corruption on our well-being as a nation are extremely devastating. However, as a collective force, we can, and we shall win the fight against corruption.

Mr Chairperson, I beg to move.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity, on behalf of the people of Senanga, to add a few comments to the policy statement that has just been given by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to pass my condolences to the family of the late Hon. Chikusu. I will say more when the Motion is brought to the House. 

Sir, I am wondering how we should talk about the fight against corruption in the country. The PF Government has given us a clear view of how it has seriously failed to fight corruption. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, His Honour the Vice-President as on record of having said that the PF Government has corrupt hon. Ministers. Unfortunately, the corrupt hon. Ministers have not yet been removed from the Cabinet. 

Mr Chairperson, the PF has indicated that it practises nepotism and tribalism. That is an indication that corruption must be fought first within the PF. However, the fact that they are still merely pointing fingers at each other, without taking any action, gives an indication that they are not ready to fight corruption. Indeed, the PF and its Cabinet is not ready to fight corruption.

Mr Chairperson, we clearly know what the PF is doing. Nepotism is part of its game. Tribalism is part of its system. Favouritism is also part of the culture of the PF members. 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, we wonder how we will move this country forward. We cannot move this country forward with such a system and Cabinet. We are not going to fight corruption with this kind of Government.

Sir, the President is on record as having said that the ACC should not investigate anything without consulting him. You cannot fight corruption in that manner. That way, you will only intimidate those that are supposed to ensure that corruption is fought. 

Mr Chairperson, we heard of the Trafigura Oil deals. However, up to now, no one is coming out to tell us what has happened with this company even when we pointed out that it was corrupt. The Government has continued doing business with the same companies that the PF condemned when it was in the Opposition.

Mr Chairperson, the fact that the President decided to bring the Road Development Agency (RDA) closer to himself is a serious indication that things are not well.  He could not trust other structures or the system that is in place, especially the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communications. He decided to start controlling the operations of the RDA himself. He also appointed a Chairperson of its board who was his campaign manager. As if that was not enough, the RDA has been operating without a full board. It just has a board Chairperson without a structure underneath him. It is just a mere skeleton. 

Sir, these are the people who are telling us that they are fighting corruption. What corruption are they fighting when the President put the RDA under his control and appointed his campaign manager as its board Chairperson? What kind of integrity are they talking about if they are unable to put proper systems of governance in place? They have failed. So what are they talking about? Nothing. 

Mr Chairperson, we have been told that when a Government concentrates on infrastructure like roads as its main core business, just know that the system is actually trying to tilt in order to get kickbacks so that it benefits from the whole infrastructure development. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, what we are questioning is the whole infrastructure development business, In fact, when you see such a system, just know that people are doing something which is wrong under the table. The members of the PF have been accusing each other of being corrupt. As for the RDA, I do not know who is going to check who, when the chief executive is …

Mr Kapeya: On a point of Order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to keep repeating the same things from the time he started debating? I seek your serious ruling.

Mr Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should know that one of the rules of this House is against repetition. You have been talking about the President putting the RDA under his control repeatedly. So, could you veer off that path.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I now move to fertiliser. The Government went ahead and procured fertiliser without following the necessary tender procedures. Surprisingly, this is the same Government that is telling us that it is fighting corruption.

Hon. Opposition Member: Single sourcing.

Mr Mufalali: Sir, it single sourced some fertiliser from Saudi Arabia and also engaged an agent from Tanzania to provide transport. These are part of the things which have been happening in the fertiliser scandals that we have seen in the papers. The hon. Minister has failed to explain what is going on with regard to the procurement of fertiliser. That is not a Government that should come before this House and tell us that it is fighting corruption. What corruption are they fighting when they are busy getting kick backs and getting fat? 

Hon. Opposition Member: They are fat now.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, they were very thin, but now we can see that they are becoming fat because …

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Order!

Let us be dignified in our debates. 

Mr Kambwili: That is being foolish.

The Chairperson: Order, Minister!

Do not take on my responsibilities.

It appears the hon. Member may not have ideas to advance. We cannot go that route. That is unprofessional. Do not debate yourselves. 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, thank you for that guidance.

Mr Chairperson, if you have that philosophy of fisanga abaume, which means that you can do all things as long as you are a man, then you are following a very dangerous ideology. That ideology is common in the PF.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, it is not possible for them to fight corruption.

Mr Chairperson, the other thing that the PF has failed to address is the use of machinery that was procured to diagonise cancer in all the ten provinces. There were machines that were procured and those machines are supposed to help in the diagnosis of cancer. I have gone round, courtesy of your Committee on Health, and I have seen that the machines which where procured for the provincial hospitals are discharging high levels of radiation. The calibration was not properly done and yet they PF has failed to ensure that the machinery that was procured is working properly. There is a smell of corruption in there. You cannot procure machinery that does not meet the standards and has radiation levels so high that they are not being used. They are quiet about it probably because some of them are courting the suppliers of those machines.

Sir, if you go to the clinics that we have in Kanyama you will see that there is infrastructure that is not being utilised because it does not meet the standards of a theatre. What has the PF done about those structures that were dubiously given to people who cannot manage to put up a standard theatre? There are no theatres in Kanyama and Chawama because the contractors which were given the projects did not meet the standards. The doctors are saying that they cannot use those structures because they do not meet the standards.

Mr Chairperson, it is very difficult to ensure that corruption is fought if you are unable to pay attention to small things that are closer to this House in places like Kanyama and Chawama. Those structures are waiting for a reaction from the Government.

Sir, failure to fight corruption is corruption itself. We want to ask the PF Government to ensure that it fights corruption starting from within its ranks. How will we educate the children in basic and secondary schools about corruption when the leadership itself is not ready to fight corruption. That is a challenge which is difficult to handle. Integrity starts with the leaders and spreads to those who follow their lead. 

Mr Chairperson, we cannot afford to say we are fighting corruption on one hand using by-elections while, on the other, we are failing to fight corruption itself. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the allocation to the ACC.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Sir, let me begin by passing my heartfelt condolences to the Chikusu family for the demise of the doctor.

Mr Chairperson, the PF Government is a disaster. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Sir, since it came to power, the ACC has become toothless and irrelevant to the people of Zambia. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Ndalamei: Sir, we have seen hon. Ministers who have been called to the ACC going with cadres to the extent that the institution has failed to interview them. What is the use of having the ACC? It is toothless and is wasting taxpayers’ money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ndalamei: Sir, however, I am supporting this Vote because I know that the ACC is keeping records which will be used in 2016.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, corruption should be fought by everyone. The way that the PF is fighting corruption is very selective. It is only targeting members of the Opposition, the civil servants and poor people. We heard them talking about corrupt hon. Ministers, but the ACC is powerless …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I am listening to my brother and friend who is debating. Is he in order to be debating with something in his mouth? I need you serious ruling.

Laughter 

The Chairperson: The serious ruling is that he does not have anything in his mouth. That is his style of debate.

Laughter 

Mr Ndalamei: kapunyamatobo 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: What does that mean?

Mr Ndalamei: Sir, he has had something. That is why he is behaving like that. 

Laughter 

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, we are ready to support the PF to fight corruption in a genuine manner. The President is on record as having stated that he was allergic to corruption and that he would rule this country according to the Ten Commandments which do not condone corruption. However, to my surprise, up to now, the hon. Ministers who are corrupt are not even known and have not yet been fired. They are here with us. Which corruption are they fighting? They are just fighting corruption by word of mouth. 

Sir, I am very thankful that the PF Government introduced the Abuse of Office Clause. Thank you very much because soon it will be used against you.

Laughter 

Mr Ndalamei: You did very well to introduce this clause. I will give you a plus on that one because you have done very well. It will be used against you sooner or later.

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Ndalamei, if you have exhausted your debate, then say so.

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Continue if you have something new. 

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, I have a lot to say.

Laughter

Mr Ndalamei: Sir, I have heard from the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House that they have spread the ACC’s operations to various provinces so that the resources that have been allocated to projects can be used properly. I thank the PF Government for that. I appeal to the ACC officers not to be frightened, but to do their job so that the money we are allocating can be used on the projects it is intended for. There are a lot of projects which were budgeted for this year and money was released, but nothing was done about them. It will be good for the ACC to be given a lot of money so that its officers can move around the country and check on the projects to see if they are being implemented. 

Mr Chairperson, the ACC needs more staff in order to efficiently fight corruption. Most of the projects are white elephants because the members of staff at the ACC are very few. The ACC has insufficient resources to fight corruption properly. If we support the ACC with adequate finances, things will move quickly and more projects will be implemented to the extent that people will even be scared of misusing public funds.

Mr Chairperson, the President is allergic to corruption. I urge the hon. Ministers to follow his footsteps in order to stop corruption in the country.

With these few words, I thank you.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to support the budget line for the ACC. I also want to take this opportunity, on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency, my family and, indeed, on my own behalf, to pass condolences to Dr Chikusu’s family and, indeed, His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia on the demise of Dr Chikusu. 

Sir, I also want to take this opportunity to welcome Dr Chilufya, the hon. Member for Mansa Central. You are most welcome to this House, my dear brother. 

Mr Chairperson, corruption is a cancer. It is responsible for the many ills that we have witnessed in most of infrastructure development projects in this country. Corruption has brought a lot of suffering to the entire country. Corruption has resulted in us, as the people of this country, receiving poor quality services and products. It is this corruption that we need to fight as we implement the 2014 Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, there is a lot of concentration in the fight against corruption on politicians. This worries me because we seem to be narrowing the net and yet, much of it involves those that handle the bulk of the national resources and decisions. We need to make sure that this group is sensitised on the dangers and ills of corruption. The Civil Service is a very big machinery. This is where all the resources of this country are channeled. We need to change the attitude of our colleagues that handle huge sums of money, contracts and those that make decisions. These are the ones that are most vulnerable to this vice.

Mr Chairperson, there is an issue of asset declaration that we, as politicians and, perhaps, a small section of civil servants, are asked to do every year. At times, I find it to be academic because I do not think it has a mechanism for verifying those particular assets that are declared. I do not also think that it has a mechanism for monitoring those particular assets. At what point do we do the comparison from what somebody had acquired the previous year and what he has today? It is such things that we need to look at and do what I may call a gap analysis. We should analyse both the legal framework and the monitoring aspects. When that is done, we can review the situation and see where we can improve or put in certain stringent measures so that we curb this particular vice. 

Sir, the fight against corruption, indeed, like one of my colleagues has alluded to, is not a one man’s show. It cannot be handled by the ACC alone. Even if you have a brilliant Director-General, he cannot do it all alone. It calls for concerted efforts. At no time should the fight against corruption be used to settle political scores. It calls for objectivity as well as the effective and efficient utilisation of the resources which are allocated to the ACC in the 2014 Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, the other aspect that worries me in this particular Vote is the fact that the ACC does not have proper equipment. The equipment which the ACC has leaves much to be desired. Today’s corruption is highly technical. The ACC needs state-of-the-art ICT to ensure that it is in a position to trace all forms of corruption. White collar corruption is rampant these days. We need to equip the ACC with modern and efficient machinery. This will enable the human resource in that particular field to perform effectively and efficiently so that they can also deliver to the expectation of the Zambian people. 

Sir, the other aspect is the human resource itself. How well staffed and decentralised is the ACC? We can talk about the construction of roads and schools being an avenue for corruption but then, what are we doing as a nation to ensure that the ACC, which is mandated with the responsibility to fight corruption, is well staffed? Unless and until we do that, we will not be able to find solutions to the corruption levels which have continued to go up. 

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to state that the ACC needs commendation in certain areas. The way it is doing certain things is quite commendable. 

Sir, the officers at the ACC have demonstrated that they can stand the pressure. They have to develop a thick skin because we, as politicians, will definitely throw blows, left, right and centre towards them. I am glad that, so far, they have stood their ground and been able to bring to the fore certain issues which have been hidden in the past. The fact that we are talking about corruption in a sitting Cabinet is in itself commendable. It never used to happen in the past.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, we must commend ourselves as a country because certain people have been cited for corruption from the current Cabinet. That is …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … something which is happening and must continue.

Mr Nkombo: That is right.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, this is because we have waited for this for a long time. Most of the time, you just hear about corruption issues after somebody has been fired or a particular party has been kicked out of power. This time around, we have issues that are happening and being followed up by the ACC.

Mr Chairperson, I want to urge the officers at the ACC to remain steadfast and objective. They should utilise the resources of the ACC for the intended purpose because they are also not immune to corruption. The officers at the ACC may also be tempted to engage in corruption issues. Thus, they must be able to take care of themselves and ensure that they deliver that which we expect. We are appropriating and approving this money because we expect a return from these funds. The only return is to see that the corruption levels in this country go down.  

Mr Chairperson, as the Secretary¬-General of the African Parliamentarians Network Against Corruption (APNAC) Zambia, I would want to see …

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … the levels of corruption going down.

Mr Chairperson, today, when I was listening to news, I was glad to hear that the statistics of corruption cases have reduced. We must commend ourselves as a country that something is happening in the fight against corruption in this particular country. The fight against corruption is not for the PF, MMD and the United Party for National Development (UPND), but this fight is for the Zambians.

The Chairperson: You are repeating yourself, hon. Member. 

Mr Bwalya: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I am specifically talking about the political parties. The political parties must know that the fight against corruption should not be aligned to Mr Micheal Chilufya Sata since he is the President of the Republic of Zambia. It should be for all of us.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: I think we are going through the same things and I do not think it is necessary.

Mr Mweetwa and Mr Mucheleka rose. 

The Chairperson: Anyway, I will recognise the APNAC Chairperson as the last person.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Chairperson …

Hon. Opposition Members: What about the Independent Member?

The Chairperson: Order!

It does not necessarily follow that because he is an Independent Member, he has to debate on all the issues. 

Laughter

The Chairperson: Continue, Hon. Mweetwa.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity given to me to debate on the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Sir, I do not have many things to say. First of all, I would like to support the Vote on the ACC. However, I would like to state that the allocation falls far below what we expected for next year.

Mr Chairperson, when President Sata opened this particular session of Parliament, he indicated that his administration was desirous to decentralise the operations of the ACC. I had initially gone on record to commend that particular position, given that then the ACC’s operations were going to be taken to the door steps of the citizens. This is because currently the ACC operates only at provincial level. In many districts, people are wondering what the operations of the ACC are all about. However, when I perused through the Budget, I found no evidence of President Sata’s statements being materialised. I do not know whether the President had married his speech with the Budget. We had thought that the President’s Speech is actually antecedent to what the Budget is going to provide. 

Sir, the part of the President Sata’s Speech which spoke about the decentralisation of the ACC’s operations is highly divorced from what is provided for in the Budget. This makes very sad reading because, then, you begin to arrive at only one conclusion. It leads one to the conclusion that what President Sata said on the occasion of opening Parliament was actually mere political rhetoric. It is like the rhetoric of ninety days, lower taxes, more money and jobs when actually the contrary is the truth. So, I am extremely disappointed that President Sata could come and sit in that seat and promise this House and the nation, yet his statements are not backed by any financial backing in terms of the Budget.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to also talk about the PF’s harmonisation policy of salaries of civil servants. 

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Mweetwa: You do not understand certain things.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of Section (13) of the Anti-Corruption Act which the hon. Minister of Youth and Sport is not aware of, the ACC by the law established by this House is supposed to prescribe its own conditions of service. Yet, we have seen though this haphazard PF harmonisation policy of appeasement, a breach of this particular law which requires the ACC to prescribe its own conditions of service. Now, the ACC is subject to the general Government civil servants conditions of service. This is a flagrant violation of Section (13) of the Anti-Corruption Act which we only passed not too long ago.

Mr Chairperson, such kind of behaviour explains why I have now come to a conclusion that the fight against corruption under the PF administration especially and particularly in terms of political leadership has collapsed and is a total mockery.

Mr Chairperson, when you look at the provisions in the budget, you will notice that it is silent on a number of important things. The ACC suffers from a number of deficiencies. This House passed the Forfeiture of Proceeds of Crime Act which requires that property that is connected to or is suspected of having been accrued from proceeds of crime should be forfeited. Last year, I stood on this same platform and urged the Government to provide resources for the training of ACC officers so that they could become abreast with this particular new legislation which does not wait for conviction in the courts of law. It mainly focuses on the recovery of wealth obtained by corrupt individuals.     

Mr Chairperson, one year down the line, nothing has happened. I wonder, now, whether this Government is a listening Government. Some officers of the ACC require training which will enable them to enforce this piece of legislation because although it has been in force, it is not being enforced in practical terms. This year, I expected an indication of this Government’s zeal to capacitate the ACC in that particular direction since we had talked about it last year. 

Mr Chairperson, as we talk about the budget for the ACC, mention should be made of the fact that the majority of Zambians have lost faith in the PF Administration when it comes to the fight against corruption. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the fight against corruption under the PF Administration and leadership of President Sata has been a total disaster. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the PF started on a good note by bringing to this House the re-introduction of the Abuse of Authority Clause. This was something which indicated to many anti-corruption activists the willingness of this Government to fight corruption genuinely. 

Sir, again, we had to be treated to the ‘donchi kubeba’ slogan. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Meaning? 

Mr Mweetwa: Meaning deception. 

Mr Mbulakulima: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I have to make reference to the current happenings. When the PF were in the Opposition, they denounced any act of corruption. When it came to oil transactions, they were louder than everyone else. No wonder they are now on your right, Sir. 

Sir, however, what has happened and is currently obtaining on the ground is that oil companies which this Government labeled corrupt and associated to Mr Rupiah Banda, such as Dalbit Petroleum Ltd, are the ones being given contracts. The company which won the contract, Trafigura Beheer B.V had its contract cancelled and given to Dalbit Petroleum Ltd.  What has changed? Can they explain to us why the people they labeled corrupt are now the ones being awarded contracts? 

Mr Livune: Why? 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, they know a lot and should elucidate more. 

Mr Chairperson, not too long ago, Zambia hosted the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO) Conference which the Auditor-General has cited for corruption. Only two days ago, I was in Livingstone where road markings are in wrong places. I was told that the contract to mark the road was given to a PF cadre. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the contract was given to PF cadres. We have street lights in one particular street which were supposed to be put up by a company belonging to an hon. Minister. To date, this particular project remains static. 

Mr Habeenzu: No mali?

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, where has the money gone? 

Mr Chairperson, the other day, I was reading an article headlined “President Sata to up the fight against graft”. What graft when President Sata, for all the time that he has been in power, has been superintending over the promotion of corruption? 

Mr Sikazwe: Question!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I say so because the hon. Minister of Justice and Secretary-General of the PF, someone who must be emulated by many on your right side, has unprecedentedly come out in the public to say the PF is infested with corruption. 

Mr Sikazwe interjected. 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, he also talked about tribalism which is not part of this debate. 

Mr Chairperson, it is, therefore, strange for President Sata to be quoted saying he is interested in the fight against corruption when his own Secretary-General and Minister of Justice, a man whom I think many Zambians are beginning to hold in high esteem for his integrity in the fight against corruption, has come out in the open to say that the hon. Ministers in the PF are pre-occupied with the formation of companies and irregularly awarding themselves contracts and flying around the country. The President has remained conspicuously mute. On what basis and  audacity thereof, is he saying that he is committed to the fight against corruption? 

I would actually say that Hon. Wynter Kabimba, SC., is more committed to the fight against corruption despite the allegation that was leveled against him. 

Laughter 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, we were not quite satisfied with the way his case was disposed of. 

Laughter 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

I think that we are going beyond what is acceptable. Debating ourselves in that fashion is not good. It only gives the impression that we have exhausted debating this matter. Please, if you have something new, can you depart from that line of debate. 

Mr Mweetwa: I thank you, Sir. I withdraw the name Hon. Kabimba, SC. and replace it with ‘a certain hon. Minister.’

Laughter 

Mr Mweetwa: By coming out in the open, at the risk of his political career, …

The Chairperson: Order!

How can certain Ministers be him again? 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: What type of language is that? Do not confuse the Chair. Continue. 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, there is a certain hon. Minister in the PF who needs commendation for having the audacity to come out in the open to denounce corruption. Obviously, he has no skeletons to hide and that is why he has come out in the open. 

Sir, I would also like to question one hon. Minister who was on television yesterday donating K20,000 in his personal capacity. Where did he find that money?

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the ACC should be concerned when a Minister goes to a church and donates K20,000, knowing the conditions of service in this country. I think that this is a lot of money. 

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe: What is K20,000?

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the ACC has a lot of work to do. 

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kampyongo: I thank you, Sir, for allowing me to raise this important point of order on my dear colleague who has spent most of the time debating his colleagues in a very unacceptable fashion. 

The Chairperson: Can you raise your point of order. 

Mr Kampyongo: Is Hon. Mweetwa in order, Sir, to insinuate that if an Hon. Minister donates something to a church it is a sign of corruption? 

Secondly, is he in order to forget that when we needed him most as Chairperson of APNAC, during the calls for the re-introduction of the Abuse of Office Clause, he grew cold feet? Is he in order, today, to come out as if he is ‘holier than thou’ in his debate? 

Sir, I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: I do not want to be drawn into these arguments. Can you continue, Hon. Mweetwa.

Laughter 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. 

In conclusion, Sir, I would like to say that for the fight against corruption to be won, it requires concerted efforts by all of us. The fight against corruption, Sir, just like you said yesterday at the opening of the APNAC Workshop must start …

The Chairperson: No, do not bring me into your debate. 

Mr Mweetwa: … with us as parliamentarians.

I thank you, Sir. 

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister may wind up debate. 

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have debated on this Vote. I would like to start by stating that the PF Government is committed to the fight against corruption.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, upon assuming office, …

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga:  … it decided to push for the amendment of the Act …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mukanga: … where the Abuse of Office Clause is. When we talk about the PF being corrupt or tribalistic, we should not forget so fast that some leaders of a particular party said that their leader would come from a particular tribe.

Hon Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, is that not tribalism? Before starting to talk about tribalism, 

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: … some people should carry out self-introspection.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! When you were debating, they were quiet.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Now, it is his chance to debate. Let us give him a hearing.

Interruptions

Mr Mwila: Why do you forget?

Hon. Government Members: Hammer Minister.

The Chairperson: Order! There is no hammering here. Just debate.

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, before talking about corruption in the PF, some people should carry out self-introspection. If some parties were to give us their shadow cabinet, how many tribes would be there?

Hon.Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, we are talking about issues as they are.

Mr Mwiimbu: Point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, you have …

The Chairperson: I did not give you the audience, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You asked for a point of order, but before I could respond, you started talking. 

Laughter

The Chairpserson: Okay I give it to you.

Mr Musukwa: Long live, the Chair.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, you have ably guided that we should not be debating ourselves. The hon. Minister has now opened a Pandora’s box by debating ourselves here when, in fact, the issues of tribalism which they are raising were raised by his colleagues on the right.

Mr Livune: Hon Kabimba.

The Chairperson: Order! I was listening very carefully. That is why we always advise hon. Members not to bring in individuals in their debates. I think we can live with that.

Hon. Minister, can you continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, what I was trying to state is that those who stay in glass houses should not throw stones.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, everyone is aware of the issues which I talked about in the policy statement. Our President has stated that he is allergic to corruption … 

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: … and that he shall rule this country based on the the Ten Commandments. 

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga:  Sir, that is exactly what we are trying to do.

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga:  Sir, we are setting precedent …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: … which will be followed by other governments …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Your point has been made. When you say ‘question’, you are disagreeing. However, you do not have to continue to such an extent that I cannot hear the person on the Floor. Please, let the hon. Minister be heard.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, our President is allergic to corruption ...

Hon. Opposition members: Question!

Mr Mukanga: … and his rule is according to the scriptures.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: Sir, everybody should help the leader to run this country. If I am asked to privatise a company, I should not do other things. 

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: Sir, we need to ensure that there is transparency in everything we do.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, no one should take advantage of the situation just because of being in office. That is why we re-introduced …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: … the Abuse of Office Clause. It is important to realise that the PF Government will not be deterred by any comment because we know the direction we are taking.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, we want to set a standard which should be followed. We are not going to do things based on rumours. Most of what was said about the RDA and fertiliser are rumours.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, the ACC investigates any suspected corruption. We should not talk about issues we do not understand.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, the corruption that we are talking about should be fought by everyone. Nobody should start thinking that we are not fighting corruption. We are here because the people of Zambia put us in power. We are going to do what is best for the people of Zambia. There is no Government in the past which has done what we have done in terms of fighting corruption.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: Sir, stories in the public media have showed that even hon. Ministers have been investigated when they are suspected to have been involved in corruption. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mr Mukanga: Sir, even commissioners…

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, can you wind up so that we go through the budget for the ACC. 

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Please, we are dealing with the budget. Let us not introduce things that might be controversial here.

Continue hon. Minister.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that the ACC conducts its investigations without any interference. 

Mr Chairperson, the decentralisation of the structures …

Mr Mweetwa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a procedural point of order. You have ruled on various occasions that statements made on the Floor of this House must be factual.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes.

Mr Mwale: Maka maka.

Mr Mweetwa: Is the Hon. Acting Leader of Government Business in the House in order to completely mislead the nation that, hon. Ministers under the PF administration have been prosecuted for corruption …

Mr Mwiimbu: Which one?

Mr Mweetwa: … without giving any evidence because what he is saying is unknown to the rest of us, Sir, including you?

I need your seriously ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: I do not want to be drawn into these debates.

Hon. Minister, can you wind up debate. I want us to go through this budget.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, specialised training has been provided. We must all be aware that the provision of specialised training is a continuous process. The officers of the ACC must be well-equipped so that they can fight corruption properly. It was alleged that when fighting corruption, our concentration is on politicians. However, I have to say that the bulk of the cases that involve public officials. We are doing all we can to ensure that all the systems work properly. As for asset declaration, I think we are trying to review the process. 

Mr Chairperson, there are a lot things that are happening. We need the support of all the hon. Members if are to move forward. We have only one Zambia and we should move together.

I thank you Mr Chairperson.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 87/01 – (Anti-Corruption Commission – Headquarters – K 83,839,868).

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4003, Activity 026 – Exchange Programmes K 551,529, why is there this rise?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Mwango): Mr Chairperson, this allocation is to carter for the cost of international collaboration. We also use such resources to provide a platform for networking and sharing ideas. The increase is due to the increased costs for international conferences and costs of hosting the Southern African Forum Against Corruption.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 4002, Activity 026 – Quarterly ACC Stakeholder Meetings – Nil. I have noticed that there is no funding allocated to this activity in 2014. Why is that so?

Mr Kambwili: Yaba ema ...

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

What is the problem now?

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, the allocation caters for the cost of holding quarterly board and technical meetings. There is no allocation in 2014 because this activity has been transferred to Programme 4013 – Operations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Unit 05, Programme 4037, Activity 019 – Complaints Review – K55,458. In this year’s Budget, we have an allocation of K300,000, but for next year, there is a proposal of K55,458. Why is there this reduction?

Mr Mwango: Mr Chairperson, this is a routine activity that has been done since 2008. It is aimed at generating information from previous complaints that can be used in management decision making as well as by officers processing complaints received by the commission. The funds will mostly be used for facilitating conferences and lodging for a team of officers who will conduct the complaints review. The allocation for 2014 has been reduced because the number of complaints being analysed has been reduced by more than half as a result of having cut down on the huge complaints backlog of the previous years.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 80/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 44 – (Ministry of Labour and Social Security – K42,550,877).

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Shamenda): Mr Chairperson, with your permission, since I may not have an opportunity to express my sincere condolences to the family …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order on the right!

Mr Shamenda: … and the Government of the Republic of Zambia on the death of Hon. Dr Chikusu, let me do so now.

Sir, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to present a policy statement in support of the 2014 Budget for my ministry. In my 2012 policy statement, I laid out the key policy focus of my ministry with emphasis on creating an enabling environment for our labour market to operate efficiently and effectively.

Sir, the PF Government inherited a labour market beset by various challenges ranging from outdated labour legislations to low labour productivity. In the past two years that we have been in the Government, we have put in place policies and programmes aimed at addressing the challenges on the labour market. I am pleased to inform this august House that my ministry is on course in developing and implementing concrete policies aimed at contributing to the overall objective of accelerating inclusive growth and the creation of decent and sustainable jobs.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry fully supports the policy pronouncements as contained in the inspiring Speech by His Excellency the President on the occasion …

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Chairperson: You may continue, hon. Minister!

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: … of the Official Opening of this Session and in the 2014 Budget Address by the hon. Minister of Finance.

Mr Chairperson, the budgetary allocation to my ministry has been increased from K36,826,743 in 2013 to K42,550,877 in 2014 reflecting a percentage increment of 15.5 per cent. With the given resources, my ministry intends to focus on programmes to do with social security programmes

As the hon. Minister of Finance highlighted in his 2014 Budget Address to this House, a good pension system should subscribe to the basic principles of affordability, sustainability, portability, wide coverage and adequacy. Regrettably, the current pension system clearly falls short of these principles. My Government, therefore, embarked on a pension reform process aimed at creating a modernised pension system which would adequately address the plight of the retirees and put in place measures to ensure long-term financial sustainability of the pension schemes. The reform process has reached an advanced stage. A technical committee that was appointed to study the current social security system has since produced a preliminary report. Currently, the Government is developing the reform options with support from some co-operating partners and stakeholders. It is envisaged that the process will be completed in 2014.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to inform this House that there has been a slight decline in the size of the informal sector from the 90 per cent in 2008 to 86.4 per cent 2012. In this regard, my ministry will, in 2014, intensify programmes aimed at extending social security coverage to the informal economy.

Mr Chairperson, we will undertake to complete the labour law reform process in 2014. I am pleased to inform this House that the process has reached an advanced stage. A tripartite technical committee was appointed to produce a layman’s draft Bill. The reforms will, among other things, abolish casualisation, eliminate all forms of discrimination, including any form of abuse of workers at places of work, preserve certain jobs which can be performed by Zambians and effectively prevent occupational diseases and accidents.

Mr Mweetwa: Question!

Mr Shamenda: With regards to labour market information management, Sir, as I stated in the policy statement I delivered to this House last year, information is the key in promoting labour market efficiency …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I had just started discussing the issue of the labour market information management.

Sir, my ministry will continue with the data collection, processing, storage and dissemination to ensure timely availability of labour statistics for decision making. In this regard, I am pleased to inform this House that the 2012 Labour Force Survey Report was officially launched on 19th November, 2013. In 2014, we will conduct, yet, another National Labour Force Survey in collaboration with the Central Statistical Office. In addition to the Labour Force Survey, we will also conduct the skills survey to take stock of the skills being produced and demanded for with a view of addressing the skills mismatch on the labour market.

Mr Chairperson, in 2014, my ministry will continue to re-establish the public employment exchange services. The target is to cover all the provincial centres and some districts. Furthermore, my ministry has re-designed the online jobs portal to compliment the public employment exchange services. The online jobs portal is operational and will be officially launched before the end of this year. The 2014 budget for the ministry has allocated resources to ensure that the portal operates smoothly.

Sir, you may wish to note that, currently, there is no policy on occupational safety and health. Arising from this, my ministry has started the process of developing the National Occupational Safety and Health Policy, which will be finalised in 2014. The policy will provide guidelines on the occupational safety and health standards in line with international best practices. My ministry will also review the National Employment and Labour Market Policy, which has not been revised since its launch in 2005. The review process will be completed by the end of March, 2014.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has designed an internship programme which will help fresh graduates acquire the much-needed experience to enhance their employability. The programme will be operationalised in 2014. This will be done in collaboration with the employers’ representatives, the Zambia Federation of Employers.

Sir, the capacity of my ministry, in terms of manpower, to carry out regular labour inspections throughout the country still remains low. My ministry has sought authority to unfreeze about ninety-nine positions for labour officers and inspectors. Once granted the authority to recruit, the increase in manpower will greatly enhance the effectiveness of the ministry in the enforcement of the labour laws.

Mr Chairperson, the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council is an important forum for discourse on issues relating labour matters and manpower development in Zambia. In 2014, my ministry will be committed to holding regular tripartite consultative labour council meetings. Additionally, we intend to accommodate more stakeholders besides the traditional social partners. My ministry will also undertake to promote social dialogue within companies, that is, between the employers and employees representatives. This measure is envisaged to inculcate a spirit of harmonious industrial relations and, therefore, promote productivity. As a ministry, our role is that of an arbiter and unless a dispute is declared, we will be pleased to see employers and employees representatives iron out their differences amicably as opposed to rushing to the ministry or even worse, resorting to strikes.

Mr Chairperson, I must hasten to mention that in the two years that the PF has governed the affairs of our country, industrial relations in the country have generally been very harmonious. I commend the employers, employees and their trade unions for dealing with issues in a peaceful manner.

Sir, the Government has improved the conditions of service for Public Service workers, making them competitive, both locally and regionally. In view of these changes, the Government demands that the productivity levels of Public Service workers improve. In order to support productivity improvement in the country, we intend to establish a national productivity centre, and also come up with a productivity measurement system in 2014. It is envisaged that the centre will greatly assist in the changing of workers’ mindsets and their work culture.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to conclude by restating that my ministry is now well into its stride with concrete policies and programmes in place, aimed at contributing to the overall objectivity of accelerating inclusive growth and the creation of decent and sustainable jobs. I, therefore, implore the hon. Members of this House to support my ministry’s 2014 Budget in order for us to continue with the good policies and programmes of changing our labour market for the good of our people and our country.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the Ministry of Labour and Social Security Vote. As I debate, I want to state that the PF Government has been very consistent in being inconsistent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I do recall that prior to the elections in 2011, the PF Government made a number of pronouncements pertaining to the labour market. One of the issues that was being promulgated by the PF, and supported by a number of hon. Members of Parliament on the Copperbelt, relates to the Chinese/Zambian worker relationship on the Copperbelt.

Mr Chairperson, we have noted with concern, as hon. Opposition Members of Parliament, the silence of hon. Members of Parliament on the Copperbelt who were very vocal in the past pertaining to the abuse of Zambian workers by the Chinese employers. I recall that when the PF was in the Opposition, its hon. Members used to say that immediately they came into power, they would ensure that the Chinese employers on the Copperbelt in places like Luanshya and Chambishi adhered to the laws of this country. 

Sir, we have, however, noted the silence of those who were advocating for the Chinese to adhere to labour laws in the past. Now that they are in the Executive, their silence is so loud, to the extent that the workers on the Copperbelt feel betrayed by the PF. They used to tell us that when they came to power, they shall ensure that there would be no import of casual labourers into Zambia. What we have noted is that the number of Chinese casual labourers has trebled compared to the way it was under the MMD Government. 

Mr Chairperson, what we have noted is that now our colleagues in the PF are the praise singers of the Chinese casual labourers. They have forgotten that they used to say that the Chinese labourers used to take the jobs of our Zambian workers. They are now saying that they want to give jobs to the Chinese labourers, at the expense of our people here.

Mr Chairperson, you move around where roads are being done in Lusaka. You will find that Chinese casual labourers are sweeping the roads and pushing wheelbarrows. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, our colleagues on your right used to condemn the MMD over that policy, but are now using Chinese labourers themselves for various projects. They are saying that the Chinese labourers are more hard-working than Zambians. However, these are the people who are supposed to protect the Zambian workers. They are now silent pertaining to the salaries that are paid by foreign companies in Zambia because they are bedfellows with the owners of these companies. They do not want to talk about these issues. There is no one now who can talk on behalf of the Zambian workers apart from us, the Opposition. The people on the Copperbelt are listening.

Mr Chairperson, when we were debating the Vote for the ACC, a number of issues pertaining to labour were raised. That Government on your right side has been interfering in the labour relations at the ACC. It has issued guidance to the ACC that whenever the commission wants to do any investigations on hon. Ministers, it must get permission from the Government. That is interfering with the performance of the workers in the ACC. How does the Ruling Party expect the ACC to perform if it is the detractor itself?

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security has failed the people of this country. I am happy to note that the ministry is headed by a former president of the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU), who used to represent workers in this country. The hon. Minister knows that when he was president of the ZCTU, there were serious issues that he used to raise. However, now that he is in the ministry, he does not want to address those issues.

Mr Livune: Ni soup.

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the Government of the Republic of Zambia is worse than the private sector in terms of the violation of labour laws in this country.

Mr Kosamu: Question!

Interruptions 

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, we are all aware that the Government of the Republic of Zambia has the propensity of declaring workers redundant without adhering to the labour laws. There are workers who have not been paid for more than ten years after being declared redundant and they are still pursuing their claims. They are not being paid. If it was a private company doing this, our colleagues across would have been issuing threats against that company. What do we expect from a government that arbitrarily abuses the rights of workers, but wants the private sector not to do the same?

Mr Chairperson, these are the same people who tell us that they will not allow any private investor to fire any worker when workers go on an illegal strike, unless there is no option. However, they are the first to fire their own workers. They have fired the nurses. They have also fired the lawyers at the Ministry of Justice.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, that is what they have done. They are not giving in to any option to resolve matters amicably. What do they expect from private investors if they do not lead by example?

Mr Chairperson, these are the same people who tell private investors that they should ensure that workers have protective clothing in the industry, but their own workers do not have protective clothes. These are the same people who have been abetting strikes in this country. 

Sir, when these people came to power, they told the nurses, and even made pronouncements on the Floor of this House, that they had increased the salaries by 100 per cent, when, in fact, that was not the case. They have been going round the country telling the people that they have increased the salaries of public workers by 200 per cent, when they have not done that. Today, the hon. Minister of Health has indicated to us and the nation that the Government has only given nurses a 4 per cent salary increment. They are now admitting that they did not tell us the truth on this matter. What inconsistency.

Mr Chairperson, in today’s paper (holding up a copy of the Zambia Daily Mail), our colleagues are telling us that they are going to recruit 2,000 nurses. At the same time, they are telling the nation and us here, who are supposed to be approving this Budget, that there is a freeze on the recruitment of Public Service workers. How are they going to employ if they have frozen the recruitment of civil servants?

Mr Chairperson, I would like to applaud our freedom fighters. They were fighting for the Independence of this country, but others are now fighting for independence from wisdom.

Mr Mwale: Abena kasununu.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, our friends on your right are telling us that, next year, there will be no salary negotiations for the Civil Service. On the other hand, they come on the Floor of this House and tell us that, actually, there are negotiations for the conditions of service of Public Service workers next year. What a contradiction. They are consistently inconsistent. What policies are we going to follow? I would like to appeal to my colleagues not to be pathetic failures.

Mr Chairperson, our colleagues on your right have told us that they do not want foreigners to come into this country to take over jobs that can be performed by Zambians, but are trying to recruit Sri Lankans to work at the Ministry of Justice to take over from Zambian lawyers.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, what do we want to achieve? 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, this is, indeed, my first point of order. The proceedings of this House are listened to by people from all over the country. I think it is only fair that we become factual as leaders of the people. Is my brother-in-law, Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, Member of Parliament for Monze Central …

Hon. Member: And learned colleague.
    
Mr Kabimba, SC.: … and learned colleague, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … in order to make such alarming statements that there is the recruitment of Sri Lankans at the Ministry of Justice when it is absolutely not right and without substantiating what he is saying? I beg your ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member debating should take that into account as he continues with his debate.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I will do so very gladly. I wish to thank my brother-in-law for raising that point of order. 

The Deputy Chairperson: There are no brothers-in-law in the House.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I will call him that outside the House. I said that they have an intention of recruiting Sri Lankans and I am aware of it. I did not say that they had recruited.

Hon. Government Members: Where, where?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, they have the intention of recruiting.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, they have an intention of recruiting Sri Lankans to take over from advocates in the Ministry of Justice.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 I ruled that as the hon. Member continues debating, he should take into account what was contained in the point of order which was raised by Hon. Kabimba, SC. He is now clarifying that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am trying to help because it is my duty to do so. Allow Hon. Mwiimbu to clarify what he meant. 

Continue Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the intention is known. Even when they were doing the judicial reforms, they did indicate that they would be in a position to recruit judges from India. That is fact.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, that is a fact. The intention is there, but we do not know whether they will keep it now that we have questioned it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Libange ili.

The Deputy Chairperson: I think that some words emanating from my right have already been ruled to be unparliamentary. I hope those who are shouting will not be louder than they have been.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I have no doubt in my mind that one of the reasons one hon. Minister was removed from a certain ministry is that there are certain drugs that can be taken in that ministry.  That is what made him to be out of that position.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am appealing to the Government on your right to stand up and protect the rights of our workers. 

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Our workers deserve protection from investors and whoever is an employer in this country. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security should be seen to be impartial. The ministry officials went to the UTH and told the nurses that their issues were going to be addressed because they were genuine. After assuring them, they are now being fired. The ministry must be seen to be consistent.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mulusa (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important ministry. 

Sir, I wish to start by referring to the Zambia Labour Force Survey Report and register my complaint at the continued production of statistics that are meant to serve a political aim rather than assist us feed into policy formulation and planning to ensure that we resolve the challenges that are besetting our country.

Sir, on page 34 of the Zambia Labour Force Survey Report, 2012, it is stated that in 2012, 70 per cent of the 7.9 million persons of working age were employed. This cannot be true. What kind of work are we talking about? I think that we need to reach a stage where we differentiate between work that is decent and qualifies to provide sustenance and work that involves selling sweets by the road side making K5.00 per day. The latter is not work.  If 70 per cent of the employable population was employed, then we would not have statistics which are telling us that the average poverty levels are at 60 per cent throughout the country. In the rural areas, poverty levels are at 79 per cent.  

Sir, in this Chamber, I think that each one of us has experienced a situation where there has not been a reduction in the number of people that they have been supporting from the time that they started working to date. If anything, on a personal level, we are getting an increased number of extended relations depending on us for sustenance. Now, if more people have gotten employed, we should see a reduction.

Mr Chairperson, on a personal level, I am able to narrate that at the time I was finishing university, on average, my classmates had twelve job offers. Today, it is very difficult for a graduate to even boast of one job offer. Why are they providing statistics which are wrong? It will make them not have the impetus to formulate policies that will assist resolve the problem.

Mr Chairperson, let me move from statistics and come to reality. Very few Zambians are employed. This is why this country is experiencing a situation of a very rich nation, but extremely poor citizens.  We cannot even save. The savings in this country are low because of the poverty levels. One salary has to support so many people and does not offer an opportunity to whoever works to leave anything for the rainy day or when they retire.

Mr Chairperson, there is what is called the ‘Life Cycle Theory”. The Life Cycle Theory requires that when one is born, that person should spend twelve years in preparatory school, and then three to five years in tertiary education. During that time, they are using the money of their parents. Beyond that, they must start working. When they start working, they immediately start saving through statutory saving by way of pension funds. At that point, the whole purpose of the Life Cycle Theory is defeated in this country because the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is not co-ordinating with the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA). It is not co-ordinating with the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. The kind of investment promotion which the ZDA is allowing does not promote savings in our country. When you look at the mining sector, you will notice that the entire value chain of the mining sector today is outsourced. The value chain can be broken into six sections and all them are outsourced. The mining industry is giving two and three year contracts to various contractors coming from outside the country. Those contractors are not able to come into this country and train the staff because the contract is only for two years. Therefore, they come with their own staff, and this means that we are exporting job opportunities and importing unemployment. Now, even when those contractors who have been given two year contracts employ Zambians, those two years contracts will not qualify them for pension savings. They are contract jobs and after two years, they are laid off because somebody else has to come. Now the question is: What are we creating in terms of the future population? We are creating a future population of the aged poor, who will have no savings because most of the jobs they had when they were young were short-term jobs.

Mr Chairperson, there is another implication, which is that we are denying ourselves the opportunities that can come with wealth which is created through pension funds. When you go to the United Kingdom (UK), America and South Africa, you will find that these countries have been developed by pension funds because these funds are the only ones that are able to buy thirty, forty or twenty-year bonds. Now, in this country, where are we going to get the money to develop our infrastructure when we have not developed our pension funds?

Mr Chairperson, I do not know what happens in this country. I am sure that every salary slip in this country has a component of pension fund deduction, but when people retire, there is no money to pay them until the Government steps in to give them the money. Where does this money which is deducted for pension funds go? Do we know the implications of this? If a pension fund is given the money that is deducted today, that pension fund creates an asset out of that money, and that asset is the one that matches the liability of an employee, which will be paid back thirty years later. Now, if thirty years later, all you have to do is depend on the money that comes from the Government, then we are defeating the entire economic system that is meant to make things work. That is why we are so under-developed. The people in this ministry need to roll up their sleeves and ensure that the important economic catalyst work that they need to do is done.

Mr Chairperson, we are looking at salary increments for workers. In reality, we have seen what has happened. There has been a 4 per cent salary increment, salary increment freezes for the next two years, inflation rate at 7 per cent and it will be 21 per cent in the next two years. This year, the workers have suffered the 7 per cent reduction in the purchasing power of their disposable income, and next year, they will suffer another 7 per cent, and the year after, another 7 per cent. When you give them a 4 per cent increment, it means that you have only reduced the negative effect of the 21 per cent inflation rate by 4 per cent, meaning that the disposable income will be worth 17 per cent less at the time that you are going to unfreeze the salary increment. Did you take this into consideration, hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, if at all you had the input in the hon. Minister of Finance’s announcement that there would be that job freeze? Therefore, I implore you to ensure that you take the interest of the workers and not refuse to meet them when they want you to listen to them.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry also needs to be extremely competitive and realise that there is a seven billion population market out there. Look at what the Indians did. The Indians did a very simple thing. They studied the world trade and realised that, in America, no one wanted to work in call centres. All the Indians did was to give the best schools to rural areas. They organised communities in rural areas and taught them nothing but English, and these are the ones that became call centre workers. Millions of Indians, young children, became the call centre workers in villages. You would call a company in America, General Electric or whatever company, but you would be attended to by an Indian in India. They were just taught how to speak English like Americans, and poverty levels were reduced in India. Therefore, what we need to do is to be innovative. We need to stop turning ourselves within the box. Let us get out of the box and think. Look at the world. There is a seven billion population market out there, and you are providing employment to the seven billion people, when you are only fourteen million people in the country. Where are the jobs for the Zambians? We do not see them? When there is a 200,000 increment in employment levels in Zambia, you should be able to notice, and each one of us here should be able to feel it. You should be able to point at a relative who has been employed as a result of that increase in job creation. However, these figures are just known by the PF. Let me tell you that giving statistics for political expediency will not help the cause of the Zambians. We need to be real. We need to be innovative and realise that the world has become very small, but each country is acting in a very selfish way, and trying to take away as much as possible from the global wealth without caring about the impact on other countries, and the least developed countries. Unfortunately, our policies do not carry productive outcomes and the ingenuity that is needed to compete effectively. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I implore the people in the ministry to lift their work to another level and be more competitive.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice the debate regarding the Vote of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Mr Chairperson, I listened to some of the hon. Members who debated on this ministry. I could see that they do not understand the issues concerning labour.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, some hon. Members were standing to talk so that the people out there can listen to them. However, that is not the way to do things. Let us bring out the facts.

Mr Chairperson, I always want to go back to where we have come from. The party of all those who were on the Floor debating the allocation to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security was once in Government. I recall that when I was sitting on the other side, as an hon. Member of Parliament, the MMD, most of the times, would interfere in the negotiation process between the unions and employers.

 Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is Hon. Mwila in order to suggest that all those who have spoken on the Floor of this House were once in Government when we have never been in Government, as the UPND, and we will only be in Government in 2016?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

To the extent that the person debating implied that those that debated before him had been in the Government when, in fact, some had not been, he was out of order.

Please, continue, Hon. Mwila.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, on the industrial relations, the PF, as a Government, has done extremely well. Why do I say so?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, we have been in the Government for two years now. Let me ask the Opposition how many strikes we have had in Government. You will find that for the last two years, we have never faced any strike. This means that the Government is doing fine in terms of industrial relations …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: … because the Government is not interfering with the negotiations between the unions and management. The union and management are able to negotiate on their own and not like the way it used to happen in the days of the MMD Government. The Government was interfering with the negotiations between the union and management.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwila: Sir, that is no longer the case. The PF Government also does not interfere with the running of the unions themselves. The members of the unions are now free to conduct elections without any interference from Government. So, the hon. Minister and the Government must be commended for that.

Mr Mwale: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Sir, those who do not understand what is happening will say, “Aah.”  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

Mr Mwila: Sir, the Government and unions are in good books because they are able to sit and discuss. Previously, the Government and the unions were working independently.

Mr Mwale: Aah!

Mr Mwila: Sir, that is why we had too many strikes.

Mr Chairperson, someone talked about the strike by the nurses. We are in the Government and I do not know when they will come into the Government. Maybe, after 100 years. Is that the way they will be running the Government with indisciplined workers? The laws are there. The Employment Act is there. The Industrial and Labour Relations Act is there. You do not go on strike without following the necessary procedures.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

Mr Mwila: Sir, the procedures are there. That is why you are not in Government and you will never be.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, procedures have to be followed. There is what we call an illegal and legal strike.

Mr Sikazwe: Yes!

Mr Mwila: Sir, the nurses have to follow the right channels.

Mr Sing’ombe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwila: Point of jealousy, iwe!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling. Is Hon. Mwila a Zambian?

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the law provides that only Zambians can be hon. Members of Parliament, he is a Zambian.

Please, continue.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, if he does not know, I am from Chipili District in Luapula Province from Chief Mwenda’s area.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, that is why if you look at the Government as a major employer, we are leading by example. Why do I say so? Those who are talking about the 4 per cent do not understand what is contained in the collective agreement. The Government allowed the unions and the employers to negotiate …

Mr Mulusa: What came out!

Mr Mwila: What came out? I am talking about the civil servants. It is not the 4 per cent. Let us also look at the take home pay also. No one in the Government, including a cleaner is getting less than K3,000. Previously, during the MMD Government’s rule, the cleaners were getting K400.

Sir, we should not forget where we are coming from.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Sir, the PF, as the Government, has done extremely well in terms of looking after our workers who are the civil servants. So, that is the more reason those who work in the private sector are looking for jobs in Government because of the conditions of service which are now good.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Actually, they have left mining companies.

Mr Mwila: Sir, I am telling you. Anyone can go and tell the workers to go on strike, they will not go. The strike by the nurses has just been caused by a misunderstanding. It is not because of the violation of the collective agreement.

Interruptions

Mr Mwila: Sir, that is why the hon. Minister of Health said that this issue will be discussed and resolved.

Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: That will be the last point of order on the hon. Member. A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwale: Mr Chairperson, is Hon. Mwila in order to say that civil servants are well remunerated when nurses are on strike as a sign of showing dissatisfaction at how much they are getting paid? Is he in order to mislead the nation that the nurses are well paid when they are not and that is why they went on strike? I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the hon. Member is at liberty to debate the way he wants to, and express the opinions which he honestly holds, he is in order.

Please, continue Hon. Mwila.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection. 

Sir, if the conditions of service were bad, all the civil servants were going to go on strike. So, it is only a small section of workers who went on strike just because of a misunderstanding. That is the more reason I am saying that there is no violation of the collective agreement. 

Mr Chairperson, those who are making noise will recall that in 1997, the minimum wage for a farm worker was K240.00. When we came to power and through the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, the farm worker started getting around K520. A domestic worker is getting more than K1,500. So, who is doing well between the PF Government and the MMD? They were voted out of power …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interjected 

Mr Mwila: … because they mistreated the workers. However, the workers in this country are happy with the PF Government performance.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Interruptions 

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, when we were in the Opposition as PF, we complained about the Pay-As-You-Earn. It was too high.  As we are talking, those who are making noise know that all the workers who are getting below K3,000 are not paying tax. This means that no one is going home with less than K3,000. That is a very big achievement. 

Mr Mulusa interrupted.

Mr Mwila: Sir, maybe, they do not understand what I am saying. Hon. Mulusa, you should listen to what I am saying.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do not drag Hon. Mulusa into your debate. You are doing very well so far until now. Please, address the Chairperson.

Mr Mwila: Sir, he is my good friend.

Mr Chairperson, I urge my fellow hon. Members to support the PF Government and the ministry with the job that it is doing.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute the voice of the people of Kazungula in Katombola Constituency and, indeed, myself, to the debate which is currently on the Floor of the House. 

Sir, this Vote is important. The labour portfolio is one which is tricky because you are handling people who are also thinking the way you do. Sometimes, they could be thinking better than you. Thus, it needs a little bit of soberness and more listening than pronouncements.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to start by making a very humble appeal to the hon. Minister to help resolve the impasse between the nurses and Ministry of Health. The way the PF were concerned with the Konkola Copper Mines workers is the same way it should be concerned with the health workers and the lawyers who have been fired at the Ministry of Justice.

Sir, to get a legal strike in this country is almost like having a dog give birth to a human being. That is impossible. There is no way the employer will allow a worker not to report for work. Nearly all the strikes in this country will remain illegal because of the thorns that are within the process of attaining a legal strike. 

Sir, when certain things happen, there is need for the leaders to be reasonable and humble especially when the issues that are at the centre of the disagreement were raised by the Government to some extent. The leaders must be able to swallow their pride and resolve this matter amicably. 

Mr Chairperson, the labour leaders came in to help the Government in appealing to the workers to return to work, which they did, with a plea that they be allowed to negotiate with the Government. The workers obliged. It was unfortunate that after that the arrangement, the Government went on and dismissed some workers. When promoting social dialogue and creating an atmosphere of trust between the Government and the partners, the labour movement, it is important that the workers who have been fired are reinstated unconditionally. 

Interruptions  

Mr Livune: Sir, there is no need to antagonise our own people. It is important that we resolve these matters in a peaceful environment.

Sir, allow me to ask the hon. Minister of Labour to hasten the labour law reforms. These issues have been on the drawing board for too long. It is important that they are attended to as soon as possible. We have been signing about these issues for a long time. It is time that we moved on.

Mr Chairperson, I also understand that these arrangements are dynamic. There is no point in time when issues will be sorted out permanently. However, it is important to deal with these matters as they arise so that we wait for new things to come.

Sir, I would like to dedicate a little bit of my time to a subject matter which the hon. Minister has alluded to. This is the issue of social security reforms. In this country, many people who are in leadership have been around for some time and many of them have been involved, at one point or the other, in the products that we have today. Just to give a little bit of background, just after Independence, around 1965 or1966, we saw the idea of having these institutions exist. The most critical one in this country was, at one time, the birth of the National Provident Fund (NPF),  around 1965.

Mr Kambwili: Were you there?

Mr Livune: Sir, the Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF) and the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF) were also created. These were basically the three major players in this arrangement of pension administration. LASF was set up to specifically deal with the council and the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) workers. The Public Service Pension Fund took the portion of the elite, the civil servants such as the nurses and teachers. The other category of workers, the less appreciated, were left under the NPF. That was after a strong recommendation from our colonial masters, the Britons. 

Sir, however, over time, the NPF did not provide the required protection because under the Provident Fund Act, a contribution remained static regardless of the inflation. This meant that inflation had eroded the members’ accounts. Hence, the then gurus, many of whom are still in this House and outside, thought that it was important that there be the pension reforms. These reforms have continued to be implemented over the years. It is also important that we call for some reasonable conclusion to these pension reforms in a way. After an evaluation of the institutions such as LASF and the NPF, it was discovered that the NPF was a more sound institution in terms of assets. Therefore, it was seen necessary to transform the NPF into the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA). That was the report from the technocrats who resolved that this country, then, had to use a three-tier system in terms of pension administration. 

Mr Chairperson, those of my colleagues who understand our social security will also recall that because of the inadequacies in terms of the monies in the provident funds, the unions, which are very important institutions bargained with the employers to bring about the occupational pension schemes (OPS) within the institutions. The Public Service Pension, the LASF as well as the NPF then, were all created through Acts of Parliament. When the decision was made to transform them, Act No. 40 of 1996 brought about NAPSA. The report which I have been referring to stated that up to today, the plans for NAPSA have not been conclusively implemented. I am sure that such reports are still lying in drawers of the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. I do not know whether it was an oversight, people gave NAPSA all the powers without considering the roles of LASF and the PSPF.

Mr Chairperson, I think the idea was to have a national pension scheme which would take everybody on board and then leave room for occupational pension schemes. That meant that a particular sector of categories of workers would negotiate with their unions to bring about an in-house arrangement for pension administration. Under occupational pension scheme, you have to confine yourself to the agreements of the employer and the union. 

Sir, by now, I expected that we would have concluded implementing the pension reforms because after all, most of the brains behind them are still within our reach.

Sir, as we speak today, the PSPF and LASF are still supported by an Act of Parliament. So, there is that problem right now in the pension industry. Also, the birth of the Pensions Insurance Authority, around 1996, created confusion within the pension industry, because some things were not done conclusively. So, it is important that the hon. Minister re-visits some reports and marries them with the current arrangements that have happened within the country.

Mr Chairperson, so the core issue of security is basically to replace the lost income at retirement. This is because when one is working, he/she can get a salary and blow it away because he/she has the hope of getting another one the following month. After retirement, if the salary does not come, without a proper pension, an individual may end up dying quickly.  Social security  can replace the income lost after retirement with monthly pensions until the death of the retiree.

Sir, we have received disturbing reports that this Government intends to increase the retirement age from fifty-five to sixty-five years. I say no to that if it is coming. I do not think that it is prudent to keep someone who is nearing the grave in a job. All of us will get to our graves very soon.

Mr Nkombo: Aah!

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, this is a very important fact. Let us not increase the retirement age from fifty-five to sixty-five. It would be better to, in fact, reduce the retirement age from fifty-five to, maybe, forty-five or fifty so that you can spend your money before you die.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: All of you are nearing your graves. So, you must be careful as you think of increasing the retirement age.

Laughter

Mr Livune: Mr Chairperson, time is not enough. We must be able to make use of our money before we die. The other reason this Government wants to increase the retirement age is because it is trying to run away from its responsibility …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Livune: … of paying the pension to a Zambian worker. Do not transfer that responsibility to anybody. You must do it because that is what you asked for. Do not transfer it to us the UPND when we come to power in 2016.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: You resolve the issues now.

Mr Chairperson, with those very few words, I want to encourage the hon. Minister to continue working hard and enhancing the relationship of the social partners. The Labour Consultative Forum is extremely important. I did not like what I saw one time when the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security and the ZCTU President were busy arguing on television. I did not like that. I will never like it. That must have been the first and last of its kind. 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to share my views on the Vote for the Ministry of Labour and Social Security on behalf of Solwezi West Constituency. 

Mr Chairperson, I have a number of points that I wish to raise. From the outset, I must indicate that I was the first President of the Zambia Institute of Human Resource Management … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … and I am going to talk about that. The forerunner to the Zambia Institute of Human Resource was Zambia Personnel Management. I would like to say that this Act is due for review. The law was passed in this House in 1997 under my guidance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, however, the Zambia Institute of Human Resource Management has not done very well in terms of equating itself to professional bodies such as the one for the lawyers and other newcomers on the market. I, therefore, expected that the hon. Minister, in his policy statement, would also talk about the revision of the Zambia Institute of Human Resource Management Bill. I am sure that the hon. Minister has that plan on his drawing board. 

Sir, I wish to add that this Government is very fortunate because there is a pool of professionals who can give advice on labour-related matters such as the one we have just experienced in the Ministry of Health. I totally agree with my colleague from the UPND confrontation should not be allowed at all. The hon. Minister said, in his address today, that he was very disappointed with the performance of the ZCTU when he went to intervene on labour-related issues in hospitals. This is not good.  This is a public platform. If there are any problems that are supposed to be sorted out, they must be done discreetly and off-camera. 

In the same vein, Sir, I want to add that there could be some limited conflict of interest. The hon. Minister, himself, was, a few years ago, the ZCTU President. 

Mr Muntanga: He encouraged people! 

Mr Mwanza: Sir, this conflict of interest cannot be avoided. I think that my brother should not comment on issues that tread on conflict of interest. I heard the nurses on television saying that it was the hon. Minister who taught them that the only way to get their grievances addressed was by going on …

Hon. Opposition Members: Strike!

Laughter 

Mr Mwanza: Rightly or wrongly, that is what they said. 

My brother, this is the conflict of interest which you must take care of. However, you should never ever shun workers when they want to see you. Please, do go and meet with them because labour matters should be resolved at once. If you procrastinate, you will attract more problems. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to raise the question of social security reforms, which is a new concept. I worked at NAPSA in a very senior capacity at the time the institution was being reformed in 2000. I must indicate to you that we were very focused as a management team at the time to ensure that the Zambian workers retired when they reached the age of fifty-five.  

Sir, this plan by the PF Government to double the retirement age is not correct. 

Interruptions

Mr Mushanga: Double?

Mr Mwanza: When one reaches the age of fifty-five like the hon. Minister of Finance, Hon Chikwanda, he or she has nothing to worry about. However, the younger people who are coming have a lot to worry about. 

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I get concerned when people become inconsistent.  The hon. Member debating was a Member of the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) …

Hon. Opposition Member: Which was rejected?

Mr Kambwili: Sir, no, it was not rejected. One of the recommendations at that conference was to increase the retirement age to sixty-five. The hon. Member was there. Is he in order, today, to turn around and say that it is wrong to increase the age to sixty-five? I need your serious ruling. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that whatever you call it, the NCC Act or NCC Bill, did not see the light of day. Therefore, it is neither here nor there. Continue, Hon. Mwanza.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: It was rejected.

Mr Kambwili: It was not rejected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter 

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, as I was saying, increasing the retirement age from fifty-five to sixty-five is not tenable because the people that are under sixteen are many and will be competing for very limited jobs with people that are already in employment. I do not think that it is necessary for the PF Government to revise the retirement age. Let us leave it at fifty-five and I want to appeal to everyone listening, teachers, nurses, as well as Members of Parliament not to accept the Bill if it comes. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, the teachers, nurses and everybody, including the hon. Members of Parliament here, should not accept the change in the retirement age.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, the Labour and Industrial Relations Act is what regulates the behaviour of the union, management and the social partners. This law also provides for essential workers. This is the point that the hon. Minister was very emphatic about. I was very happy about that because essential workers such as nurses and doctors are very important to the lives of the people. Such essential workers must never go on strike whatever the provocation. If they have any grievances, they must be addressed through the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security and …

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: … and other social partners.

Mr Mwiimbu: That is sense.

Mr Mwanza: Sir, the Industrial and Labour Relations Act does provide for how matters concerning essential workers such as nurses and doctors must be handled. I feel very uncomfortable when such people turn round and go on strike.

Mr Livune: Hear.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, it is wrong. The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security must engage the social partners because within the same law there are provisions that the new office bearers in the unions must be sensitised about. It is good for all employees to become members of the union and, at the same time, to observe their code of conduct. They must have a code of ethics that they should never proceed on strike if they are employed as doctors or as nurses.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, they should not do so.

Mr Kampyongo: Ema debate aya.

Mr Musukwa: Aah!

Mr Mwanza: Sir, I said I am standing here as a professional because I am …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair.

Mr Mwanza: … a former Zambia Institute of Human Resource Management pioneer.

The Deputy Chairperson: Address the Chair, please.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to do things the right way. I also want to say that the Government is very harsh because, to start with…

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is the Government in order to fire 100 nurses and say it will engage others when they were telling us all along that the country lacks trained personnel? Why was this Government failing to engage those people to solve the shortage of nurses in the country? Are they in order to behave in that manner? They have fired some nurses and now want to engage people who they have always said are not there. Where are the nurses be employed going to come from?

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the Chairperson does not want to delve into issues that border on employer-employee relations because I do not have the full facts to warrant an informed ruling.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I would like to turn to another point which is equally important which is the Government action to sack all the striking nurses. I think doing something like that at this stage it is a bit too harsh. The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security should calm the situation down. At the same time, the nurses must know that they are providing essential services to the people and that death should be prevented. Although the hon. Minister said there were no deaths, I doubt that statistic. I think there were deaths recorded at the UTH. New labour leaders should be well inducted so that they know that they are supposed to respect the provisions of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act.

Sir, the other point I would like to talk about is about the Labour Department in the North-Western Province. In this province, we have a Department of Labour headed by a Principal Labour Officer. Since the North-Western Province is one of the few provinces where industrialisation is coming through mining activities, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to consider elevating the status of labour officers such as the Principal Labour Officer which is higher in other areas than it is in our province. I recommend that the position be elevated to that of Assistant Commissioner of Labour like what obtains in Ndola on the Copperbelt Province. In that way, this official will have authority to walk into the General Managers’ offices at Kansanshi, Lumwana and Kalumbila mines to discuss labour matters. As it is now, the Principal Labour Officer is junior in status and, so, I am requesting that this position is elevated.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I would like to appeal, once more, to the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to ensure that he uses the services of professionals in the Zambia Institute of Human Resource Management to ensure that the Act is brought here for review.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shamenda: Oh dear, oh dear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I think I will be brief. I would like to sincerely pay tribute to Hon. Mwila for having answered all the questions which were raised on the Floor of this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: I would like to be a little a controversial. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Why?

Interruptions

Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Shamenda: Sir, those who are near where I am standing have got the experience of running a government. Now, my advice to those who have never run a government is that it is important for them to ask so that they are told the truth.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Shamenda: Sir, what causes the strikes is the misinformation of the workers. I have a little bit of experience in handling industrial relations matters. So, when I speak I have a bit of authority. 

Sir, some of the issues which were raised by Hon. Mwiimbu are not even worth commenting on. When we were in the Opposition, we criticised the Chinese because we wanted them to improve the working conditions of the people. Now …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security in order to start responding to the issues I raised when he has indicated that they are not worth responding to? Why is he responding to the issues which I raised if they are not worth responding to? 

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Minister was trying to get away from the points you raised by saying that they are not worth commenting on.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, when it was in the Opposition …

Hon. Opposition Members: Where? Which one?

Mr Shamenda: …  the PF as a party …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Allow the hon. Minister to respond.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, people on my left!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, some time back, the PF only had one Member of Parliament. The other political party nearly formed the Government. Now, during the relay race, the party with one hon. Member of Parliament overtook those who had more than forty-six hon. Members of Parliament, and is now in the Government. That tells you a story of the calibre of those who are criticizing. So, just listen and wait. I have no doubt in my mind …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

I thought what the hon. Minister is saying gives hope to all people here…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: …that there is tomorrow, and that they should not give up.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, hon. Minister.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, I said most of the issues which were raised by Hon. Mwiimbu were not worth commenting on. If I said all of them, I withdraw that statement sincerely. As I was saying, when we were in the Opposition, the Chinese …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, when we were in the Opposition, we were looking at the issues and the way workers were being mistreated. Now that we are in the Government, our duty is not to lament, but correct what those who were in the Government were doing wrong. I can assure you that if you go to the Copperbelt today, you will see that the situation is different. Unless you are only operating in Monze, then you will not understand what is happening on the Copperbelt.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Sir, things have changed completely and there is no mistreatment of workers in the Chinese-owned companies.

Mr Mwale rose.

Hon. Government Members: Continue.

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to make it very clear …

Mr Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwale: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security who, in his speech, never mentioned or touched on the safety of our workers in the construction and mining companies on the Copperbelt, in order to say that those problems that mine workers and people who work for construction companies that are run by the Chinese have been facing have been resolved when everyday, on Muvi TV, we see workers protesting? We can go and watch Muvi TV now. We will see what I am talking about. Is he in order to say that all those problems are gone when there is so much happening and our people who are listening can agree with what I am saying?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Notwithstanding your spirited effort, you have sufficiently debated your point of order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, the policy statement is available for circulation. One of the issues raised in the statement is that of introducing the Occupational Safety and Health Policy, which never existed. If this is not addressing the issue of occupational health and safety, then I do not know what we are talking about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shamenda: Mr Chairperson, as I said, Hon. Mwila has done justice to this debate on the issue of striking nurses and their subsequent dismissal. I am very grateful to Hon. Mwanza. The recognition agreement is very clear. When the unions …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate Adjourned)

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress Reported)

_______

The House adjourned at 1956 hours on Tuesday, 3rd December, 2013 until 1400 hours on Wednesday, 4th December, 2013.