Debates- Thursday, 5th December, 2013

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 5th December, 2013

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

REPRIMAND BY MR SPEAKER

 HON. MEMBER FOR CHADIZA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MR A. D. MBEWE, MP

Mr Speaker: I order you, Mr Allan D. Mbewe, hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza Parliamentary Constituency, to stand up in your seat.

Mr Mbewe rose.

Mr Speaker: The House will recall that, on Thursday, 14th November, 2013, I made a ruling on the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Choma Central, Mr C. Mweetwa, MP., in which he had alleged that I had been inconsistent in my rulings on matters relating to the doctrine of the separation of powers. In that ruling, hon. Members will recall, I clearly demonstrated that the rulings I had rendered in this House on matters touching on the doctrine of the separation of powers had, in fact, been consistent.  I also stated that I was unable to address the doctrine of exclusive cognisance and the sub judice rule in any detail because the matter relating to the removal of the legal immunity of Former President Rupiah Banda was the subject of litigation before the Supreme Court of Zambia and, therefore,  sub judice.

Hon. Members, in pointing out that Hon. C. Mweetwa’s point of order amounted to a challenge of my rulings, I went further to remind and guide the House on the procedure that hon. Members could employ whenever they were dissatisfied with or aggrieved by a ruling made by me or the other presiding officers. 

The House will further recall that, on Friday, 15th November, 2013, barely a day after I had rendered the very comprehensive ruling on Hon. Mweetwa’s point of order, the hon. Member of Parliament for Ikeleng’i, Mr Elijah J. Muchima, MP., raised a point of order similar to Hon. Mweetwa’s. When responding to that point of order, I reiterated my earlier ruling that I had been consistent in upholding the doctrine of the separation of powers, and that there were no double standards employed in the governance if this House. However, immediately after I had responded to Hon. Mr Muchima, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza, Mr A. D. Mbewe, MP., also raised a point of order in which he repeated the allegation that I was applying double standards in my rulings in connection with the doctrine of the separation of powers and the sub judice rule. Hon. Mbewe’s point of order was as follows:

“Mr Speaker, can you accept that two standards have been set in this House, where some issues can be discussed and others cannot be discussed? What you have said – I refer to the Rupiah Banda issue – we resolved issues here, was:

“‘Those were different issues because they were in court.’” 

“Mr Speaker, is the House in order to provide two different standards, which we are failing to reconcile in this House?”

Hon. Members, considering the two rulings I had made in this House, particularly the elaborate ruling on Hon. Mweetwa’s point of order, Hon. Mbewe’s point of order not only questioned the dignity of the House, but also directly attacked my integrity as Speaker.  Thus, prima facie, I determined that there was a case of privilege and accordingly referred the matter to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services to determine whether Hon. Mbewe’s conduct amounted to a breach of privilege and/or contempt of the House. The Committee met to consider the case.  In line with parliamentary practice and procedure and, indeed, the rules of natural justice, Hon. Mbewe was accorded an opportunity to appear before the Committee. He was, thus, given a platform to be heard.

In his submission before the Committee, Hon. Mbewe admitted being aware of the procedure to challenge a decision of a presiding officer.  However, he indicated that he was very emotional at the time he raised the point of order. He further indicated to the Committee that he was a layman in law and might not have clearly understood my rulings on the subject. However, upon being interrogated further by the Committee, Hon. Mbewe conceded that ignorance was not a defence for an offence and that, by raising the point of order in question, he had improperly challenged my rulings. 

After considering the evidence before it, including Hon. Mbewe’s submission and my ruling on Hon. Mweetwa’s point of order, the Committee determined that the hon. Member for Chadiza had contravened National Assembly of Zambia Standing Order No. 61 of 2005 by challenging my decision on the Floor of the House in the manner he did and was, thus, in contempt of the House.  Hon. Members, below are some authorities who attest to this determination: 

Section 19(d) and (e) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, provides as follows:

“19.    Any person shall be guilty of an offence who –

(d)     shows disrespect in speech or manner towards the Speaker; or

(e)    commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a Committee of the Assembly or to any person presiding at such proceedings.”

In addition, Audrey O’Brien and Marc Bosc, in their book entitled House of Commons Procedure and Practice, Second Edition, make the following observation on page 615:

“Reflections must not be cast in debate on the conduct of the Speaker or other presiding officers. It is unacceptable to question the integrity and impartiality of a presiding officer and, if such comments are made, the Speaker will interrupt the Member and may request that the remarks be withdrawn. Reflections on the character or actions of the Speaker or other presiding officers have been ruled to be breaches of privilege.” 

Hon. Members, in considering the punishment to mete out against Hon. Mbewe, MP., the Committee noted that the offence committed was a grievous one.  However, taking into account that the hon. Member is a first offender, was quick to admit his guilt, had shown remorse for his conduct and had apologised for his contemptuous action against the House and the Speaker, the Committee resolved that Hon. Mbewe, MP., be admonished on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I now turn to you, Hon. A. D. Mbewe, MP.

Hon. Mbewe, as recommended by the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services, I now proceed to admonish you. 

Hon. Mbewe, I would like to state that your act of challenging my rulings, through your point of order, was received by the House with a sense of shock because, barely twenty-four hours prior to your point of order, I had rendered an elaborate ruling in response on Hon. Mweetwa’s point of order, which had raised the issue that you also raised in your point of order. In that ruling, I stated and asserted every hon. Member’s right to challenge any decision of a presiding officer and the manner in which such a challenge could be made. Therefore, your resistance to following the appropriate procedure was not only contemptuous, but the least expected from a long-serving hon. Member of this House like yourself.

I would like to remind you, Hon. Mbewe, that it is my primary and special duty, as Hon. Speaker of this August House, to interpret the Constitution and the rules of the House, in so far as they relate to the proceedings of the House. Any Member who is aggrieved and inclined to challenge or criticise my rulings can only do so on a substantive Motion, as provided under Standing Order 61. Further, I would like to state that the conduct you displayed is not only unacceptable, but also one that lowered the dignity of the House.  Be that as it may, I note that you are a first offender and trust that you have learnt the importance of conducting yourself in accordance with the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, the Standing Orders and other relevant conventions, such as those in the Member’s Handbook. So, I will order you to render your apology to the House. However, before you do that, I want to seize this opportunity to warn other hon. Members of the House who are also in the unfortunate habit of tarnishing the image of this August House through irresponsible and dishonourable conduct, to desist from such conduct.

Hon. A. D. Mbewe, I now order you to render your apology to the House before you resume your seat.

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PERSONAL STATEMENT

APOLOGY BY THE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHADIZA, HON. A. D. MBEWE

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I, Allan Divide Mbewe, in my personal capacity as a Member of Parliament for Chadiza Constituency, do unreservedly apologise to you, this august House and the nation at large for protesting against your ruling in the manner that I did, which was contrary to the rules of this House and your guidance rendered in this House.

Sir, I have reflected on my action and do agree that it amounted to a serious breach of the rules and procedures of the House. I have also carefully listened to the guidance you have given me and wish to assure you and this august House that, in future, I shall abide by the rules and procedures of this House and, in all other ways, act in a manner befitting an hon. Member of this House.

I thank you, Sir.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER 

KASEMPA YOUTH RESOURCE CENTRE

209    Mr Pande (Kasempa) asked the Minister of Youth and Sport:

(a)    when the construction of the Youth Resource Centre in Kasempa District would commence; and 

(b)    whether Zambia had a national school football team.

The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Youth and Sport, has an implementation plan for building, at least, one youth resource centre (YRC) in each district of the country. However, the construction of a YRC in Kasempa District will only commence when funds and land have been secured. 

Sir, Zambia does constitute national school football teams under the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education for purposes of various sports events, tournaments and outings. This is because pupils graduate from schools on a yearly basis.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, ...

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, on Tuesday, 3rd December, 2013, the hon. Minister of Health made a statement to this House on the strikes affecting the health institutions in this country. In his statement, he informed this House and the nation at large that measures were being put in place to ensure that the provision of medical and health care services in our health institutions were not disrupted as a result of the dismissal of many health personnel. However, I would like to bring it to your attention that, pursuant to the dismissals, the operations of most health institutions have been paralysed. If you visit the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), you will find that most operations have been paralysed, affecting the provision of medical assistance to our people. 

Mr Speaker, apart from the information I have, through my personal interaction with the patients and other people concerned, I have in my hand a very comprehensive report by The Post newspaper dated 5th December, 2013, pertaining to the unfortunate situation that is obtaining at the UTH. The headline reads:

“Dismissals Paralyse Operations at UTH’. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am aware that a number of affluent people in the country have the privilege of accessing medical facilities out of the country. However, the majority of our people who are afflicted with serious diseases go to the UTH, but they are now failing to access the facilities. 

Sir, is the Government in order to deliberately cause the paralysis at the UTH and other institutions by the negligent dismissal of health personnel without taking appropriate measures to protect the lives of our people? Is it in order to be so negligent and not care for the lives of our people? 

I need your serious ruling, taking into account the statements that have been made on the Floor of this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

My ruling is that the hon. Member for Monze Central should file a question of an urgent nature, which we shall, as expected, forward to the hon. Minister of Health to respond to.

That is my ruling.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister indicated that the resource centre will be constructed when land and resources are made available. In 2011, there was a delegation from his ministry that visited Kasempa and determined a site was found. I would like to know when the construction will begin, since land has been found.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I wish to assure the hon. Member that the Government attaches great importance to the construction of a resource centre in Kasempa Constituency but, due to the constraints in the Budgetary allocation, we were unable to do it. We will construct one immediately the resources have been made available. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has admitted that Zambia has a national school football team. In the old days, we used to have very prominent and consistent members of the national school football team. We had names like Lewis Shambulo, Ackim Musenge, Vincent Chileshe and Mark Masumbuko among others, who were consistent and ended up in the National Football Team.

Sir, today, since we have a national school football team, can the hon. Minister share with the House who the prominent names in these junior teams are?

Laughter

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, that is a new question. I would have to research to find out who they are. However, I can assure him that if he goes to the Olympic Youth Development Centre (OYDC), he will find a number of members who have been graduated and are playing in the Under-20 National Team and others in the clubs. The schools, like I explained, are run by the Ministry of Education Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, and I have stated that students graduate. They are not consistent, and when they graduate, they move on with their lives. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, resource centres are one way of reducing youth unemployment levels in Zambia. Arising from the answer that there will be resource centres built in every district, could the hon. Minister shed light on what has happened to the money that has been allocated to this ministry and places like Ikeleng’i where sites were found for construction. 

What has happened?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the construction of the YRCs is an on-going programme in most districts. We cannot construct all of them at once. If we have not constructed any in Ikeleng’i, it does not mean that we are not doing anything. We will soon go there to construct the YRC.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo): Hon. Minister, according to your plan, how many YRCs will you build per year?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, as of now, I cannot tell. We have just passed the Budget and the ministry will have to sit down and see how many YRCs can be constructed annually from the allocation that we have been given. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, considering that there are many districts that require the YRCs, would the ministry consider coming up with a prioritised list so that hon. Members or the various districts know when their turn would come.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I invite the hon. Member of Parliament to come to the ministry so that I avail him the list.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, how many YRCs do we have countrywide?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I am new in the ministry. So, I do not know how many YRCs we have in the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, that is a genuine answer that I am giving you. I have  only been in the ministry for one day. 

I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, do not worry about that reaction. I encourage such kind of responses because they are honest. 

SIMBUU PRIMARY SCHOOL

201. Mr Ndalamei asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education when the 1 x 2 classroom block at Simbuu Primary School in Sikongo Parliamentary Constituency, which was included in the 2013 Infrastructure Development Plan (IDP), would be constructed.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr P. Ngoma): Mr Speaker, the 1 x 2 classroom block at Simbuu Primary School in Sikongo Parliamentary Constituency was budgeted for in the 2012 IDP at a cost of K160,000, not in the 2013 IDP. However, during 2012, no money was released by the Ministry of Finance for the project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, the student hostels at the University Teaching Hospital (UTH), including those for midwifery students, have been in a power black-out since last Sunday, yet some of the students are supposed to write examinations tomorrow. If the students demonstrated, they would be expelled. Is the Government in order to keep the hostels in a black-out to date?

I seek your serious ruling. 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that you should file an ordinary question.

Laughter

Mr Ndalamei: Hon. Minister, why was the construction of the classroom block not carried over to 2013, as you promised when you answered a question on the subject last year?

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, if a project is budged for in 2013, but it is not implemented, it becomes a problem if it is not carried forward to the following year. However, the Provincial Education Officer (PEO) for the Western Province confirmed that the project will be implemented in 2014 because the ministry has budgeted for works on fifteen pole and mud schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I need an honest answer from the hon. Minister. If a project is not financed in a particular year, should it be struck off in the following year? Is there no follow-up?

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, I have given the correct answer. If a project is not funded in a particular year and it is not re-entered the following year, it lapses.

Interruptions

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, there is a budget for works on pole and mud schools in 2014. Proper infrastructure will be constructed. The PEO has confirmed that the school is among those that will be worked on. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, we still need clarification. If a school is budgeted for in 2013, but it is not worked on and it is not worked on in 2014, does it lapse even though a budget has been passed? What would happen to the money allocated to the project?

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, it is with regret that we were unable to implement that project. I think that only three ventilated improved pit (VIP) latrines were built because the project did not get an additional allocation. The provincial leadership and the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) regret the lapse because, in 2013, another school was prioritised at the expense of carrying over the project at Simbuu Primary School. We have an understanding with the provincial leadership for the school to be one of the projects that will be undertaken in 2014. That is my assurance to Hon. Ndalamei.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

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BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

THE COMPETITION AND CONSUMER PROTECTION (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE FEES AND FINES (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE PATENTS AND COMPANIES REGISTRATION AGENCY (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (Amendment) BILL, 2013

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.
____________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:

The Competition and Consumer Protection (Amendment) Bill, 2013

The Environmental Management (Amendment) Bill, 2013

The Fees and Fines (Amendment) Bill, 2013

The Patents and Companies Registration Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2013

The Weights and Measures (Amendment) Bill, 2013

Third Reading, on Friday, 6th December, 2013. 

_____ 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 18 – (Judiciary – K336,253,998).

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kabimba, SC.): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to present the policy statement on the Estimates for the Judiciary for the financial year 1st January, 2014, to 31st December, 2014.

Sir, the Judiciary is one of the three arms of the Government and draws its mandate from the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. Its mandate is the administration of justice, through interpreting the Constitution and the Laws of Zambia, promoting the Rule of Law and upholding democratic principles in an independent manner. 

The mission statement of the Judiciary is: 

“To provide effective and efficient administration of justice accessible to all people of Zambia through impartial and timely adjudication of cases without fear or favour”. 

Mr Chairperson, during 2011 to 2013, the Judiciary continued its mission of administering justice in accordance with the 2009-2013 Strategic Plan and the objectives of the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP) 2011-2013. 

Sir, the 2011 Budget for the Judiciary was K206.5 million, of which K17 million was supplementary funding. The budget was apportioned as follows: 

(a)    K104.4 million for awards; 

(b)    K85.4 million for non-personal emoluments; and 

(c)    K7.9 million for personal emoluments. 

Out of the total budget of K206.5 million, K184.9 million was disbursed. 

Mr Chairperson, the funds for non-personal emoluments were spent on court sessions, court-circuiting, general administration, construction and rehabilitation of court buildings.

Mr Chairperson, the 2012 Budget for the Judiciary was K254.2 million, out of which K2.6 million was supplementary funding. The budget figure was apportioned as follows:

(a)    K105.3 million for awards; 

(b)    K115.9 million for non-personal emoluments; and 

(c)    K33 million for personal emoluments. 

Out of the Budget of K254.2 million, K245 million was released by the Treasury. 

Sir, the monies for non-personal emoluments were spent on courts sessions, court-circuiting, general administration, construction and rehabilitation of court buildings. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, the budget for the Judiciary was K272 million, of which K26 million was supplementary funding. The budget was apportioned as follows: 

(a)    K130 million for awards; 

(b)    K159 million for non-personal emoluments; and 

(c)    K8.7 million for personal emoluments. 

Out of the budget of K272 million, K171 million was disbursed, as at 31st August, 2013, representing 63 per cent. The monies for non-personal emoluments were spent on court sessions, court-circuiting, general administration, construction and rehabilitation of court buildings.

Mr Chairperson, the operations of the Judicature in the country are governed by a number of statutes that form the policy framework of the institution. Below are some of the statutes that govern the administration of justice in the country:

(a)    the Supreme Court is established under Article 92 of the Republican Constitution. It is the highest court of appeal and a superior court of record in our land, which hears and determines appeals in civil and criminal matters, as provided for in the Supreme Court Act Cap 25 of the Laws of Zambia and any other law;

(b)    the High Court is established under Article 94 of the Constitution of Zambia. The High Court Act Cap 27 of the Laws of Zambia governs its operations; 

(c)    the Commercial List was established by Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 29 of 1999 under the High Court Act Cap 27 of the Laws of Zambia;

(d)    the Industrial Relations Court was created under the Industrial Relations Court Act Cap 268, Section 84, of the Laws of Zambia. Its functions are stipulated in Section 85 of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, as amended by Section 69 of Act No. 30 of 1997; 

(e)    the Subordinate Court was established under the Subordinate Court Act Cap 28 of the Laws of Zambia;

(f)    the Small Claims Court was established under the Small Claims Court Act Cap 47 of the Laws of Zambia;

(g)    the Local Courts were established under Section 4, Sub-section 1, of the Local Courts Act Cap 29 of the Laws of Zambia;

(h)    the Sheriff’s Office is a department of the Judiciary established under the Sheriff’s Act Cap 37 of the Laws of Zambia, as amended by Act No. 3 of 1989; and

(i)    the Judicature Administration Act No. 42 of 1994 Chapter 24 of the Laws of Zambia provides for the administration of the judicature.

Mr Chairperson, in 2014, emphasis will be placed on addressing the following issues:

Quick Disposal of Cases 

In order to sustain the public’s confidence in our court system and the rule of law, the Judiciary has embarked on the process of improving case-flow management so as facilitate prompt determination of cases filed in court.

Enhanced Access to Justice

Programmes aimed at increasing access to justice by the majority of the citizens will be undertaken, including the construction of additional court houses and court-circuiting in areas without resident adjudicators.

Further, the computerisation of the Judiciary will enhance access to justice.

Infrastructure Development

In its continued quest to quicken the dispensation of justice, the Judiciary will continue to prioritise the improvement of its infrastructure. In 2014, emphasis will be placed on rehabilitation, construction and, where need be, outright purchase of court buildings. Among the projects to be undertaken are:

(a)    extension of the Lusaka High Court. We intend to extend the High Court Building, which will house the Supreme Court, the High Court, the Commercial List, Mediation, Small Claims Courts and the administration offices;

(b)    the Construction of High Court buildings at Chipata, Chinsali, Kabwe, Mongu, Choma, Kasama, Mazabuka, Solwezi and Mansa, which will house resident judges;

(c)    construction of Subordinate Courts at Chama, Luangwa, Chienge and Chirundu will also take place; and

(d)    the construction and rehabilitation of Local Courts.

Human Resource Development

The focused training of staff will be a priority in 2014. Relevant training to support the attainment of the institutions objective will include:

(a)     training for Assistant Registrars and Senior Clerks of Court;

(b)    in-service courses for Magistrates in critical areas, such as juvenile justice;

(c)    real-time court reporters’ course;

(d)    local training of Magistrates;

(e)    training of registry staff in records management, revenue collection and accounting;

(f)    training of Commissioners and Clerks of Courts on Small Claims Courts; and

(g)    the jurisprudence equality training programme for adjudicators;

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the Judiciary will continue to uphold justice and the rule of law, asserting its independence, provide equal access to justice for all our people, ensure transparency and accountability in the use of judicial resources and maintain a zero-tolerance approach to corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: I, therefore, urge this august House to fully support the budget for the Judiciary.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to state that, for us, the Judiciary is, indeed, an institution manned by learned people. It is a bearer of hope, as the hon. Minister has rightly put it. It is our refuge of last resort and it should give us hope and confidence. However, I think that we see a fragmented and segregated institution, whose conduct lowers the integrity that it is expected to exude. We see activities at the lower levels of the Judiciary that are in direct conflict with those of the upper levels. We also see the integrity of the Judiciary questioned. For example, the Chief Executive Officer of that wing of the Government faces a serious challenge on her legitimacy by some of her fellow learned people, and we find this to be unacceptable. This information is in the public domain.

Mr Chairperson, we have seen importation of expertise by the Judiciary … 

Mr Ndalamei: From Malawi.

Mr Mtolo: … when we have qualified personnel in that arm of the Government. The public will question why that is happening. 

Dr Kaingu: Why?

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, we have seen actions by that arm of the Government, which are in direct conflict with the Constitution of Zambia. Now, if that institution, which is supposed to give us hope, can be in conflict with the Constitution, then, who will give us that hope?

Mr Chairperson, for example, we have three Constituencies in Zambia that are not represented in Parliament.

Ms Lubezhi: Five.

Mr Mtolo: They have been denied representation for over three months, which is the Constitutional limit. This is an issue that should have been handled well by the Judiciary, which is responsible for interpreting the Constitution. So, we would like to see the hon. Minister of Justice take control and make sure that the Judiciary lives up to its expectations, although he is a member of the Executive.

Mr Chairperson, today, the highest arm of the Judiciary which, as the hon. Minster explained, is the highest court, the one which has the final say on judicial matters, the Supreme Court, has lost its integrity. It appears as though the Supreme Court is the machete wing of the Executive. This is wrong.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: We are actually comforted to have cases handled by the High Court, not the Supreme Court, because the rulings of the Supreme Court are a foregone conclusion. This is wrong.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Siba mvera.

Mr Mtolo: Sir, I can continue to give examples of how we see continuous conflicts in the Judiciary, which is supposed to protect the other arms of the Government, but it is the first to question their actions. The Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) is one institution whose work has been undermined seriously by the Judiciary. So, we wonder where and how it is performing.

Sir, the Judiciary is expected to help the hon. Minister, since he is the one who represents it here, to adhere to the rules in processes like the Constitutional reforms. When a plan is put in place, the Judiciary should interpret to the hon. Minister what is required of him by the law. However, what we see is that the Judiciary is actually weakening the legal framework on such issues. We should have had very clear guidance from the Judiciary on the current debate on the Constitution-making process, but that has not happened. As a result, the process has now fallen behind its timeframe, the public has lost confidence in it and its independence is threatened. 

Mr Chairperson, we have had a number of tribunals established, and we expected that the Judiciary would work with the hon. Minister to guide the nation on their relevance. Unfortunately, we have seen tribunals set up that have not given us any results at all while some justifiable tribunals are being frustrated because of questions about the legitimacy of some of their members.

Sir, I would like to remind the hon. Minister that we would like to see the independence of the Judiciary enhanced rather than trampled on, which is what we currently see.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, thank you for affording me the opportunity to debate this very important Vote.

Sir, I have listened to hon. Minister’s policy statement on the Judiciary, especially the last part, in which he assured us that there will be increased access to the courts, quick disposal of cases, infrastructure development and equal access to justices.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to start with the point regarding equal access to justice. The moment the hon. Minister mentioned that aspect, a question came to my mind: Is it true that we have equal access to justice between the poor and rich?

Mr Muntanga: Batili.

Mr Mutelo: Is it true that the poor are treated in the same way as the rich when they cannot afford to hire a lawyer? Cases involving the poor are mostly handled in such a way that the truth is sacrificed in the name of technicalities. So, do we really have equal access to justice or is justice meant for the rich to override the poor?

Mr Chairperson, if, indeed, our intention, as a country, is to have equal access to justice by the end of 2014, then, we have to work on it. We are aware that corruption has found its way into the Zambian court system and is being perpetrated by the rich. For example, there are cases of case files missing because money has exchanged hands. If there was no corruption, you would not expect a file to go missing. How can a file go missing? The current situation implies that, if one is poor, they will find themselves in Chimbokaila Remand Prison, whether guilty or innocent. I have observed that there is a good number of people who have been wrongfully convicted and sentenced for offences about which they were actually innocent just because they are poor. This should not be the case at all. I am not saying that the poor should commit crimes and get away with it, but it is they who are in the majority of most of our prison populations.

Mr Chairperson, may I now turn to the point on access to justice. 

Sir, due to lack of court infrastructure in Mitete and Lukulu West, people walk 200km to get to a local court. People from Washishi walk all the way to Lukulu, bypassing Mitete, to have their cases heard because there is no local court in Mitete. As a result, many cases at the village, kwa hae, are not attended to, but just die a natural death and people take the law into their own hands. Usually, such things happen in the flood season, like now. So, when I heard the hon. Minister mention infrastructure development around the country, I wanted to thank him because I have never seen even a subordinate court in Lukulu. If there is no subordinate court in Lukulu, what more in Mitete, which has just been established as a district?

Sir, if there is any Magistrate’s or subordinate court operating in Lukulu, then, it is operating in a rented council building. The Council Chamber is being used as a court room. Anyway, it is a Zambian thing to turn a Council Chamber into a court room forty-nine years after Independence. However, we have heard that more subordinate courts will be constructed in districts countrywide, but Lukulu and Mitete have not been catered for, yet we want increased access to justice, too. Why?

Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the quick disposals of cases, which the hon. Minister mentioned, and I hope that, in the coming year, it will be just as stated. Due to delays in the disposal of cases, remandees take up to six months or one year in detention. As a result, there is no space in the prisons due to court delays. Due to this, the police cells are overcrowded and the burden of overcrowding is transferred to the prisons. However, the hon. Minister has already mentioned that there will be quick disposals of cases this year, and I hope that it shall be so.

Sir, the Judiciary is just like the Executive and the National Assembly. So, if all the things mentioned today are just for the sake of pleasing those listening, then, they will also just end at being empty promises. You know, theories and pronouncements are becoming the order of the day in Zambia. It is normal to come to Parliament and just talk without acting. Posterity will judge us harshly if we do not change. Politicians, civil servants and ordinary people need to change their mindset. It is too much of people being academic in nearly everything. The talking cannot take us anywhere because things do not work by just being talked about. When the head of the Judiciary’s legitimacy is questionable, then, all its actions become questionable, too.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Mutelo: Sir, the Judiciary is an institution to which people should run for protection, yet its professionalism is questionable. We may let things continue being run as if they were normal when they are not but, one day, when different people will be in charge, the difference will show.

Mr Chairperson, the Judiciary, the Executive and the Legislature are the three arms of the Government and they should work as one, but their professionalism should never be unquestionable. I agree with the hon. Minister that there must be equal access to justice. However, I do not agree with him when he just mentions it without taking action to facilitate what he says. We may not provide 100 per cent equal access to justice, but let us reach, at least, 70 per cent.

Sir, I agree with you on infrastructure development. However, please, include Lukulu in the programme. You may not want to include Mitete but, please, let Lukulu have a subordinate court. It is too much of holding court sessions in the Council Chamber. I also agree with you on the need to dispose of cases quickly. So, let us do that because it is required. In that way, our remand prisons and holding cells will be de-congested.

Mr Chairperson, I heard of the nolle prosequi entered in favour of the fifty-four Barotse activists, although they were told that they could be re-arrested. That is why they said that it was all right for them to be re-arrested. That is all we need. Eighty-four people were arrested but, later, the number reduced to fifty-four. After their release from prison – some of them with suspended sentences – the activists have some breathing space. Two of those accused are from Lukulu and, when you go the house of one of them, a young man, you will find nothing hidden there. Is that equal access to justice? Equal access to justice should be for all, both the poor and the rich. However, currently, there are people who travel long distances just to have access to a local court. Even for simple cases like divorce or a claim for lobola, someone has to travel 200km. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to end here.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to debate the Vote for the Judiciary. I will focus on two issues, namely, the situation in the rural areas, being a representative of a rural constituency, and the vexing issue of whether the Judiciary should be answerable to the Ministry of Justice, especially that the it is the third arm of the Government.

Mr Chairperson, the biggest issue affecting the Judiciary is leadership. This is in light of the fact that it is answerable to the Ministry of Justice, which has not been able to effectively provide the necessary leadership. 

Sir, our simple questions that beg answers from the Executive are: How many local courts, for example, do we have in the country? How many of the local courts have permanent structures and officials, not those that operate under the trees? Talking about infrastructure development for the local courts, in particular, where is the plan for the entire country? Over the past two years or so, we have been hearing that an Infrastructure Development Plan (IDP) is being developed, but where is it? It is the responsibility of the hon. Minister of Justice to impress upon the Judiciary to develop that operational plan so that, when it comes to us here, we will know how many local courts, especially those that are only in name, will be constructed on a yearly basis. We need that kind of operational plan so that those of us who are from the rural areas, where cases are discussed under trees, can tell our people that there is a movement towards the development of permanent structures. We need to assure them that our turn to have permanent structures will eventually come. That kind of approach requires the leadership of the Ministry of Justice, which has, so far, not done much in that regard. That is why I am saying that, from the point of view of those of us from rural areas, the Judiciary is not being led effectively by the Ministry of Justice. We expect things to be done differently so that those who are in the rural areas can see change. For example, in Nalikwanda Constituency, we only have four local courts, namely, Nakato, Mbekise, Lyande and Imalyo. Three of these courts operate under trees.

Mr Chairperson, people travel long distances to get to the local courts, a point that was belaboured by my brother from Lukulu West when he talked about Mitete. The distance from Namusheshe to Nakato is about 60km, and people have to walk because there are no vehicles to take them there. Walking in a sandy environment for 60km can take three or four days. Where is the justice in this? When they arrive at the local courts after a long walk, there is nowhere for them to sleep. How do they feed themselves? These are the harsh realities faced by people in the rural areas like my constituency, who are served by the local courts that are there only in name. That is why we would like to see the hon. Minister of Justice provide the necessary leadership to the Judiciary so that the difficulties that the people in rural areas like Nalikwanda are facing are eased or the burden is made lighter. This is very important, and we would like to see a change in that direction.

Mr Chairperson, I do not think that we are doing things correctly. Conceptually speaking, there is a problem with the Judiciary, which happens to be the third arm of the Government, being answerable to the Ministry of Justice. It is supposed to be independent of the Executive. For it to be answerable to the Ministry of Justice, which is part of the Executive, is, in my view, contradictory. I am sure that other countries do things differently and we can learn from them. So, we need to research in that area so that we see how best the Judiciary can operate independently, in this case, from the Executive. That way, we may arrive at a situation whereby the Judiciary can uphold democratic principles independently, as stated in its mission statement or vision. In a situation whereby the Judiciary can be directed by the Executive on a daily basis, I do not think that it can uphold democratic tenets.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice should do his research so that the apparent conflict in the way that the Judiciary operates under the Ministry of Justice is addressed. I am sure that we can find legal experts who can resolve the conflict. We have read about situations whereby the Judiciary is dictated to by the Executive. How can that be? Why should it even be so? Is that necessary? Is it the way things should be? I do not think so. So, let us strengthen our democratic governance by searching for ways of making the Judiciary truly independent.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I wish to state that I support the Vote of the Judiciary. However, I have a problem because the separation of powers among the three arms of the Government is not so clear when it comes to the Judiciary. That is a pity.

Sir, I wish that the Chief Administrator of the Judiciary could somehow be allowed to come here and represent the institution. This idea of putting the hon. Minister of Justice, who is a member of the Executive and Chief politician of the Patriotic Front (PF), in charge of the Judiciary is wrong. Due to the way things are arranged, the hon. Minister of Justice is responsible for the Judiciary, and this makes him even want to interfere with its operations.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: That is totally wrong. 

Sir, the Judiciary is headed by the Chief Justice, but the current Chief Justice is just acting, but for how long?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Why should we have someone in an acting capacity for years and years?

Mr Nkombo: Mane Jesu akabole.

Mr Muntanga: Do we want her to act until Jesus Christ comes? The uncertainty on the relationship between the Ministry of Justice and Judiciary confuses us and needs to be straightened out. The hon. Minister of Justice should only be answerable for his ministry, where police officers hand over cases to prosecutors and they look at the various ways of proceeding with the case. However, it is the Judiciary that will have to interpret the law and it should be autonomous. Therefore, the interference from the hon. Minister of Justice must be removed.

Mr Chairperson, currently, there is the case of Judge Chikopa. We all agree that there is a need for reforms in the Judiciary. However, that does not mean that we had to bring in a judge from outside Zambia, this Judge Chikopa, who sits in this country forever. I have not seen an allocation for his upkeep. So, who pays for it? There is no budget line for Judge Chikopa. The Executive is playing with us. You want to discipline judges, but they know how to get around it. They just appeal. I am still waiting for the outcome of the contempt case against this Judge Chikopa. I am interested to see whether he will be locked up.

 Sir, the Judiciary should attain its stature as an autonomous interpreter of the law. We also want the courts you talked about to be built. The Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) had advanced in its plans to build courts. I know that there is a beautiful court in Chief Siachitema’s area, which is one of the chiefdoms in my constituency. However, I still need a court in Chief Sipatunyana’s area. There are no courts in many other areas. I passed through Chikuni in Chief Fwenuka’s area, where cases are tried under a tree. In Chief Chona’s area, it is like a deserted place. 

Mr Chairperson, unfortunately, there is no allocation for building local courts in the Southern Province next year. I heard the one representing the Judiciary say that we shall build High Courts in Choma and Mazabuka. It is a good thing, but I have not seen the allocation for that in the Budget. I think that it is a general statement of the Government’s wish and, because the hon. Minister of Finance has been allowed to borrow more, we think that some of the borrowed money can be used to do such things. Otherwise, where will you get the money to build the High Courts? The idea is very good because people travel from our villages to the High Court in Livingstone. If a High Court is built in Choma, it will shorten the distances people have to cover. We support the idea, but there is no money allocated for it. That is my concern. I wish that the allocation to the Judiciary could be increased to cater for what the hon. Minister has said in his very good policy statement. 

The other thing I want to talk about is that we have been complaining of corruption in the Judiciary, but we have concentrated on one section of the institution. We should go a little backwards. At the expense of annoying my friends, I am afraid, I must say that the lawyers are the ones who move …

Mr Mwiimbu: Now, you are annoying me.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: You can see, now.

Sir, lawyers are the ones who become judges and, eventually, the Chief Justice. 

Mr Chairperson, good lawyers are seen from the time they start operating their private practices. There are good lawyers, and we have many of them and people rush for them. However, we have problems when a bad lawyer who has some problems becomes a judge or assumes a higher office because they will carry their baggage to the new office and things like corruption will continue. It is said that bad habits die hard.

Mr Chairperson, we appeal to the Judiciary to endeavour to be perfect. That is why we are sent to lawyers when we want to take oaths. Therefore, lawyers must show us their friends who are good from the practices and can become judges. 

Mr Chairperson, there are some very good judges, but we do not want to mention them. Unfortunately, this ugly aspect of corruption has been noticed on the noble profession. How we deal with it is just to appeal to the people who practise that they should, please, save us.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was making the point that the Judiciary is composed of lawyers and was, therefore, appealing …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order pertaining to the veracity of the statements we make on the Floor of this House. 

Mr Chairperson, a few days ago, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock informed this House and the nation that he would launch the 2013/2014 Planting Season. He went to the extent of telling us the amount of rain that would fall during that particular period and that we would have normal rainfall this year. He even encouraged farmers to immediately start planting. As a result of that assurance, the farmers in Monze, Kalomo and other areas were very encouraged because they thought that they had been given accurate information. However, to date, the rains have not been falling in my constituency and district. Is the Government in order to give this House false and inaccurate information on a very serious matter that affects farmers and continue misleading us?

The Chairperson: Thank you for the point of order. However, I also know that the hon. Minister might have relied on information that he might have got from the Zambia Meteorological Department (ZMD). Maybe, something had gone wrong with the machines.

Laughter    

The Chairperson: Therefore, I cannot make any ruling.

The hon. Member for Kalomo Central may continue.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I feel happy about that. It only teaches us not to speak on behalf of other people over whom we have no control. Otherwise, you will have problems. In this case, the one responsible for the Judiciary is the Chief Justice, yet the hon. Minister of Justice is the one representing the institution. He is merely doing the institution a favour. That is why I say that he should not continue so that he avoids being misunderstood. 

Sir, when will we decide that the Chief Justice needs to be replaced? Now that it is evident that she only qualifies to be in an acting capacity, for how long will she act?

Mr Nkombo interjected.

Mr Muntanga:  Let us make a decision to appoint a person to the position of Chief Justice on a permanent basis. The Government is causing itself problems because of the inconsistent decisions it makes. You make even lay people begin to question your decisions. I saw this over the issue of the current tribunal. I know that the matter is said to be in court. The interesting thing, Mr Chairperson, was that the lower court made a decision for a tribunal to be convened, but the person in charge of the Judiciary blocked the idea.

Mr Nkombo: Ngwenya oyu Chibesakunda?

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Nkombo: Ni izyina?

Mr Muntanga: It was Acting Chief Justice Chibesakunda who refused. Now I am wondering, maybe, the one who is at the High Court would make a better Chief Justice.

Mr Chairperson, let us not confuse the Zambian people in that order. Serve the Judiciary faithfully. If you have already served for so many years, just retire quietly. Leave the Judiciary, please. We do not want to continue having problems in that institution. If you people in the Executive are the ones encouraging the Acting Chief Justice to behave the way she is behaving, I advise you to, please, leave the Judiciary alone. Let us not reach a level where ...

Sir, mind you, if the people in the Executive want to ensure that they are supported by the people they appoint, when they get out of power, they will promptly be the first people to be put into prison. I remember very well that, when Dr Levy Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace, was made President by the late former President, Dr Chiluba, may his soul also rest in peace, the former asserted his independence from his predecessor. The late Dr Mwanawasa, SC., was a lawyer to be admired, and I like to see lawyers like him. 

Mr Chairperson, the people working in the Judiciary must maintain their integrity. They should not allow themselves to be abused or compromised. We have lawyers, these days who, when you go to them for legal representation, will tell you that they are too busy to take your case up, and send you to their friend, who will then represent you. However, when the case is concluded, even the lawyer who introduced you to his friend will draw a bill for you.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Nkombo: Mwazwa ali Chief Justice alimwi?

Mr Muntanga: I am finished with the Chief Justice, man! I cannot continue with her.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, my main concern is that the lawyers must not allow themselves to be compromised because those who do so are the ones who make the Judiciary dirty when they rise through the ranks.

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Muntanga and Mr Nkombo interjected.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central in order to continue debating the Acting Chief Justice, who is not in this ′ouse?

Hon. Opposition Members: House!

Mr Chisala: He has continued talking about the Acting Chief Justice, yet he does not even have points to raise.

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Justice will respond to that.

You can continue, Hon. Muntanga.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. The difference of learning ... 

Mr Nkombo: Levels.

Mr Muntanga: That is the difference of levels. 

Mr Nkombo: In this ‘′ouse’.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we are discussing the Judiciary in this ‘′ouse’.

Laughter

Muntanga: Therefore, …

The Chairperson: Do not worry. I have made a ruling. So, you may proceed, Hon. Muntanga.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I will continue speaking in this ‘′ouse’.

Laugher

Mr Muntanga: The point I am making is that there is not enough money …

Mr Nkombo: For this ‘′ouse’ to approve.

Mr Muntanga: … for this ‘′ouse’ to approve.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want to humbly ask that we find the money to build local courts so that cases do not continue to be heard under trees.  I will be very happy if money will be provided for us to build a court in Chief Sipatunyana’s area as good as the one in Chief Siachitema’s area. Other chiefs need the courts, too.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words in this ‘′ouse’, I thank you.

Laughter

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up debate on the Vote for the Judiciary.

Mr Chairperson, the English say, “Reading maketh a man.” I am new to this House.

Mr Muntanga: ‘′ouse’.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: So, I am not very sure whether one needs to pay a fee to get into the Parliament Library. However, I think that it is high time …

Mr Muntanga: What do you recommend?

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Muntanga, I am just trying to help so that we can debate in an orderly manner. So, I appeal to you to give the hon. Minister the opportunity to debate because, when you were debating, we all listened attentively. Therefore, please, maintain order.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that I am not very sure whether one needs to pay a fee to get into the Parliament Library. Suffice it to say that we need to make use of that facility to acquire a bit of knowledge to anchor our debate. I say that because we may be attempting to fly too high by moving from a peasant farmer to start discussing issues about the Judiciary, ….

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … which are very difficult for us to comprehend.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, firstly, I am not a peasant farmer. Secondly, I have debated the Judiciary, but I am not a lawyer. Is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to describe us, who debated this Vote as peasant farmers when we are not? 

The Chairperson: I did not hear him mention any name. So, I think that, to that extent, he is in order.

You can continue, hon. Minister.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, what we are debating today is the budget for the Judiciary. The issue is about how we can make our Judiciary an institution that can effectively serve the Zambian people. I do not think that casting aspersions on the Judiciary or its officers is collateral to the Motion before this House. 

Mr Chairperson, it is also very unfair to use this platform to attack individuals who have no opportunity to defend themselves, more so when what we are saying is nowhere close to the truth. I think that I have listened to the Speaker on several occasions guide this House that we must be factual, sober and respectful to others in our debates. I think that your guidance has not been heeded. 

Mr Chairperson, when the Judiciary passes a judgment that is not favourable to a person, it is not because it is a bad institution, but because the person had a bad case.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: You cannot come here and start attacking innocent officers of the Judiciary on a matter and be completely oblivious of the issue of the Budget.

Mr Chairperson, I thank my colleagues for raising the issues that they raised, some of which are very clear. For example, fifty years after Independence, how can we still have some of our citizens cover 200km to access justice? That is a good point for us to take into account. Therefore, …

Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised, but I will make this one the last I am granting on the hon. Minister.

You have your point of order, Hon. Imenda.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, we have been brought into this House by the people of Zambia to debate issues that affect them because they cannot come here to represent themselves.

The Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to start attacking his fellow hon. Members who debated this Vote instead of addressing the issues that they have raised? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, these are issues that the communities that voted for us want to hear.

The Chairperson: You see, you have to look at these things from where they started. You will recall that somebody raised a point of order on whether Hon. Muntanga was in order to debate individuals, and I ruled that the hon. Minister would respond. I think that he is in order to say what he has said because we have always advised that we should never bring in names of individuals in our debates because it complicates things. The fact that we, presiding officers, sometimes, keep quiet when you start debating other people does not mean that we consent to what is being said. We just do so hoping that the individual debating will realise that they are off the mark and get back on track. However, in today’s case, I must admit, that did not happen. So, the hon. Minister is responding. In fact, I think that he had passed that point and was talking about some of the points raised, specifically, that of people walking 200km to access the courts. I think we should let him debate.

Hon. Minister, continue, please.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was commending those of my colleagues who raised the issue of access to justice vis-à-vis the Budget that is before this House. I was agreeing, and going into a rejoinder, as they call it, with them that this is, indeed, an issue that worries us, as a Government. The PF Manifesto is very emphatic on the issue of access to justice by all our people. We think that justice cannot be put in compartments between rich and the poor because all our citizens are entitled to have equal access to justice. It is for that reason that we have provided a very significant amount for infrastructure development in the Judiciary this year. So, I think that the problem will be tackled.

Mr Chairperson, the expeditious disposal of cases is another very worrying issue, and nobody can deny the fact that we need to improve in this area and see to it that cases that are taken before the Judiciary are disposed of quickly. The Judiciary is also conscious of this problem and is addressing it with all its efforts. It has a programme in place.

Sir, I would like to also say that we have a very good legal aid system, which is intended to serve the indigent of our society. However, it also requires a lot of improvement. We are conscious, as the Government, that we need a lot of money to upgrade our legal aid system so that, like one of my colleagues said there, the poor can be served through the legal aid system.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to end my rejoinder by saying that the independence of the Judiciary is provided for in our Constitution. The role of the Ministry of Justice is purely administrative. The security of tenure of the judges and the independence of the Judiciary are not a point in dispute. This is also a Commonwealth institutional structure. In almost all the Commonwealth jurisdictions, this is the structure. Beyond the Commonwealth, like in America, the judges in the Supreme Court are appointed by the President. Is that interference of the Judiciary? No, Sir. That is the arrangement. 

Sir, I also want to say that it is very unfair for somebody to make the unsubstantiated allegation that the Ministry of Justice interferes with judgment, operations or administration of justice. Maybe, that used to happen in the past, but no more under the PF Government. We think that …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: I can say it unequivocally that the Judiciary under the PF is as independent as the principles of independence provide for in the Constitution. The sanctity of our Judiciary, as an institution to deliver justice to all our people, is definitely a point that we tenaciously uphold as a Government.

Mr Chairperson, on this note, I would like to thank all my colleagues, including those who debated off the mark, for their support of this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 18/01– (Judiciary – Headquarters – K100,131,973).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 018 – Preparation of Procurement Plan – K100,000. This activity was not budgeted for this year, but it has been budgeted for next year. Why?

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula):  Mr Chairperson, this provision will cater for procurement planning activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulomba (Magoye): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 495 …

The Chairperson: We have not yet got that far.

Mr Mulomba: Oh, sorry.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4037, Activity 003 – Monitoring and Evaluation of Projects – K250,000. This year, K500,000 was allocated to this activity, but only the figure for next year has been reduced by half to K250,000, meanwhile, we have heard of a good number of projects that the Judiciary intends to undertake. Is the money sufficient?

The Chairperson: Just to guide the House, in this Budget, in some cases, it is obvious that allocated amounts are less or more depending on what work has already been done or is yet to be done. So, much as I appreciate, the need for clarity, I think that it should be sought on issues that are truly perplexing.

May the hon. Minister respond to that question.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this provision is required to meet the cost of travelling expenses, accommodation and other logistical costs for monitoring and evaluating of projects. The decrease is due to budgetary constraints. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4008, Activity 011 – HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment – Nil. In 2013, K110,000 was allocated to this activity, but no allocation has been made for next year. Why is that so?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, that activity will be catered for in Activity 010 – HIV/AIDS Awareness and Food Supplements – K40,000, under the same programme.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 18/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/05 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – K9,766,929).

Mr Mulomba: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 01, Programme 4052, Activity 002 – Procurement of Equipment – K50,000. Why is it that last year’s allocation of K1,200,000 has been reduced to only K50,000 in the proposed allocation for next year?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this provision will cater for the purchase of computers, printers and copiers for the province. Most of those items have already been purchased this year, hence the decrease.

I thank you, Sir.
    
Vote 18/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/17 – (Judiciary – Subordinate Courts – Northern Province – K3,114,653).

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 012 – Construction of Court Buildings – Nil. Why is there no funding for any court buildings in the Northern Province?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, we have a lot of work in progress carried over from as far back as 2008. We would like to complete those projects before embarking on new ones. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 18/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/21 – (Judiciary – Subordinate Courts – Southern Province – K9,954,128).

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 4012, Activity 076 – Construction of Local Courts – Nil, I see that the activity has not been provided for, yet Namwala is in a dire need of local courts. Will any court be constructed in the district?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, as I indicated when I was responding to Hon. Mucheleka’s question, there is a lot of infrastructure that is still under construction from previous years. We feel that those should be completed before we undertake any new projects until 2015. Otherwise, it might become too unwieldy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, regarding construction of infrastructure, there is no budget, whatsoever, not even for on-going projects …

The Chairperson: Are we on the same page?

Mr Muntanga: I am on the same page, Sir. 

How do you hope to complete the on-going construction projects when there is no allocation whatsoever? Where will you get the money from?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, some money from the 2013 allocation has been released for this project after the certificates were processed.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/22 – (Judiciary – High Court – Eastern Province – K994,771).

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 186 – Construction of Court Buildings (Chipata High Court) – Nil. When will that structure be completed since there is no allocation?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, we plan to resume construction in 2015.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/28 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – North-Western Province – K11,650,389).

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 174 – Rehabilitation of Court Infrastructure – Nil. In Kabompo District, there are a couple of local courts whose roofs were blown off and are in a dire need of repair. However, I can see no provision in 2014 for the rehabilitation of this infrastructure. When does the Government intend to rehabilitate it?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this activity is provided for on page 350, Unit 01, Programme 4012, Activity 011 – Rehabilitation of Buildings – K500,000. There is a bit of money for infrastructure in dire need of rehabilitation. Otherwise, most of the rehabilitation will take place in 2015.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/30 – (Judiciary – Subordinate Courts – Western Province – K3,677,852).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, I seek clarification on Programme 4015, Activity 001 – Court Circuiting – K127,000. This amount for 2013 has been maintained for 2014 even though there will be a lot of court-circuiting in the Western Province next year because…

The Chairperson: What is your question, Hon. Mutelo?

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, the allocation is small because there will be a lot of court-circuiting.

The Chairperson: Are you asking a question or making a statement? What is your question?

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, why has this allocation not been increased since there will be a lot of court-circuiting in the Western Province due to the new districts that have been created?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the amount is adequate compared with activities that have taken place this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/31 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – Western Province – K21,888,151).

Mr Sianga (Sesheke): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4012, Activity 012 – Construction of Court Buildings – Nil. This year, we had K1,500,000 but, next year, there will be no funding. What is the reason?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, you will notice that this activity has not been funded in all the provinces because, like I said, there are many projects yet to be completed, and the Judiciary would like to complete those projects before the money is wasted or misapplied. New construction in all the provinces will resume in 2015.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4052, …

Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, what I understand about work in progress is that it is undertaken to a certain level from which it is subsequently continued. If that work will continue according to the explanation of the hon. Minister, it will need materials, labour, logistics and all the things that go with building. Is the hon. Minister in order to just say that no allocations have been made because there is work in progress? How will that work in progress be financed?

The Chairperson: A similar question was asked and the hon. Deputy Minister said that money has been released from this year’s Budget, and it is this money that will be used to continue with the works next year. I think, that is what he said. That was my understanding.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 008 – Procurement of Court Furniture – Nil and Activity 006 – Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture – K100,000. Activity 006 has been funded, but Activity 008 has not been funded. I would like to know why.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, Activity 008 will be funded under Activity 006.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Chairperson, I seek may I have clarification on Programme 4052, Activity 006 – Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture – K100,000 and Activity 019 − Purchase of Computers and Printers – K50,000. What office equipment is being referred to? Are computers and printers not office equipment?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, Programme 4052, Activity 006 – Procurement of Office Equipment and Furniture – K100,000 and Activity 019 − Purchase of Computers and Printers – K50,000 is meant to be used to purchase office equipment other than computers and printers. 

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: I thought so, but I did not want to say it lest I am accused of answering for the hon. Minister.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4037, Activity 005 − Inspection, Monitoring and Evaluation – K20,000. This year, the allocation to this very important activity was K110,000. Why has this big reduction been made?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this allocation is meant to cater for payment of subsistence allowances and transport costs for officers involved in inspection and monitoring of projects. The reduction is because part of the exercise will be funded by the headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 18/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18/36 – (Judiciary – Local Courts – Muchinga Province – K4,649,060).

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I patiently waited to get to this point as we only have one item, which is the Head total for the Judiciary. 

Sir, in his policy statement, the hon. Minister of Justice was very clear in saying that the Government would commence the construction of High Courts in Choma and Mazabuka next year. However, I have looked very closely at the figures in the Yellow Book, but I have not seen an allocation for that activity. This might be the result of my not being a cultured reader, as the hon. Minister said, but I have looked at every page.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, maybe, he can help me find where the allocation is before we get to the head total. 

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, the construction of provincial High Courts is under active discussion involving the Judiciary, the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Finance. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo rose.

The Chairperson: I allowed that question although we were looking at the Departmental Total for Muchinga Province. He has given the answer, but you still want to ask a follow-up question. Anyway, you can ask.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, this is an activity-based Budget. So, I see a serious contradiction between what the hon. Deputy Minister is telling me and what the hon. Minister said.  The hon. Minister did not state that there were consultations between the Ministries of Justice and Finance, and the Judiciary on this issue. He was categorical in saying that a High Court would be built in Mazabuka in 2014. Can he confirm that the hon. Minister’s statement is not supported by the Budget?

The Chairperson: Order!

We are now running into a technical problem because we have gone back to discussing the policy statement. We are supposed to be considering the Departmental Head for Muchinga Province.

Mr Nkombo interjected. 

The Chairperson: I wish you had raised that question when the hon. Minister was making his policy statement. We are now discussing figures, and it is difficult for us to go …

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I was respecting the fact that you do not like points of order. So, I wanted to be orderly.

The Chairperson: I appreciate that but, in the process of being orderly, you are now being disorderly.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Let us continue.

Vote 18/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: You did not put the question on the head total.

The Chairperson: No, we do not put a question on a Head total. Hon. Nkombo had raised a question on the Departmental Total under Muchinga Province. However, I told him that he should have raised it when the hon. Minister was making his policy statement. Our practice is not to put a question on a Head total. Maybe, you want us to change the rules.

VOTE 31 – (Ministry of Justice – K254,164,825).

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for permitting me to present the policy statement on the 2014 Estimates for the Ministry of Justice. 

Sir, the Ministry of Justice is mandated with the responsibility of facilitating the administration of justice and the promotion of the observance of the rule of law in our country. The mission statement of the ministry is:

“To provide legal services, facilitate dispensation of justice and promote governance mechanisms in order to uphold good governance principles and practices in Zambia.”

Mr Chairperson, in line with the mandate of the ministry, the interventions for the period 2011 to 2013 were mainly to facilitate the administration of justice and promote the observance of the rule of law. In 2011, the ministry had a budget of K313 million, which was apportioned as follows: 

(a)    K14.3 million for Personal Emoluments; 

(b)    K109 million for Non-personal Emoluments; and 

(c)    K189.6 million for compensation and awards. 

Sir, out of the total budget for the ministry, K33.68 million was supplementary funding. 

Sir, funds for non-personal emoluments were spent on the following programmes:

(a)    Constitutional reforms; 

(b)    law revision and reform; 

(c)    litigation; 

(d)    debt recovery; 

(e)    legal advice and policy; 

(f)    administration of estates; 

(g)    advanced legal education; 

(h)    human rights; 

(i)    governance; and 

(j)    arbitration. 

Sir, other programmes implemented include prosecution and the domestication of international treaties and agreements. I would like to inform this august House that all the allocated funds were disbursed to the ministry in full by the end of that year. 

In 2012, the ministry had a budget of K376 million, of which:

(a)    K148 million was for non-personal emoluments;

(b)    K211 million was for compensation and awards; and 

(c)    K18 million was for personal emoluments. 

Sir, out of the ministry’s budget for 2012, K77.7 million was supplementary funding and all funds were released during the financial year under review. 

Sir, the Budget line for non-personal emoluments went towards:

(a)    providing support to grant-aided institutions under the ministry to facilitate their operations;

(b)    construction of office blocks for the ministry;

(c)    facilitating court operations and legal representation;

(d)    supporting the establishment of offices in provinces; 

(e)    community education and sensitisation on cross-cutting issues. 

(f)    revision of legislation and laws;

(g)    provision of legal aid services to indigent Zambians;

(h)    millennium challenge account;

(i)    promotion of good governance programmes;

(j)     access to justice promotion; and 

(k)    capacity building for members of staff. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, the ministry was allocated K378 million, which is broken down as follows: 

(a)    K16.8 million for personal emoluments; 

(b)    K140.5 million for non-personal costs; and 

(c)    compensation and awards K221 million. 

Sir, out of the budget, K23.5 million was supplementary funding. 

Mr Chairperson, out of the budgeted amount for non-personnel related costs, K80 million had been released as at 31st August, 2013, representing 58 per cent. The key programmes that have been implemented under the 2013 Budget include:

(a)    constitutional reforms;

(b)    promotion of good governance initiatives;

(c)    implementation of the African Peer Review Mechanisms;

(d)    court-circuiting;

(e)    provision of legal aid to indigent persons; and 

(f)    support to the operations of various grant-aided institutions under the Ministry of Justice, which include the Legal Aid Board, the National Prosecution Authority (NPA), Judicial Complaints Authority, Zambia Law Development Commission and the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE). 

Mr Chairperson, during the period under review, the ministry continued with the implementation of capital projects, which included the construction of the Ministry of Justice Head Office in Lusaka at K3 million, the ZIALE Silverest Capital Project at K2.5 million and implementation of the Case-flow Management System at K1.5 million. 

Sir, during the year under review, the ministry had a Budget line of K221 million to cater for compensation and awards for judgments against the State. Of this amount, K21 million was supplementary funding. 

Sir, K139 million had been disbursed, as a 31st August, 2013, out of the total budget for compensation and awards, representing 70 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue with the implementation of initiatives aimed at fostering the rule of law, adherence to good governance principles and meeting its broader objectives. In view of the foregoing, the Government will facilitate the implementation of comprehensive justice and legal reforms in the country and has started the process of addressing the numerous challenges facing the effective delivery of justice in the country. In this regard, working with the justice sector stakeholders and governance institutions, the Government is fast-tracking and deepening the legal and justice reforms so that every person enjoys the equal protection of the law. It is envisaged that, once the reforms are fully and comprehensively implemented, the people, particularly the vulnerable and disadvantaged, will have adequate and equitable access to justice, through an effective, efficient, affordable and easily accessible legal system. This is in accordance with the PF Manifesto.

Sir, the ministry will also scale up the decentralisation of its services to provinces and districts in order to improve access to justice in the country for our people. The following institutions will progressively increase their presence in provinces and districts: 

(a)    the Legal Aid Board; 

(b)    the NPA and Civil Litigation; 

(c)    Debt Collection; and 

(d)    the Prerogative of Mercy Unit. 
 
Further, Sir, the ministry will continue to build the capacity of the Legal Aid Board by progressively improving employees’ working conditions so as to attract and retain professionals in this department. This will help in the provision of effective services to the poor so as to match the growth of the NPA. It will be fair justice if the prosecution standards equal those of the defence. In addition, the ministry is working to enhance its capacity to carry out its mandate by recruiting and retaining advocates. The ministry currently has a critical shortage of lawyers, which often results in a lack of representation in some cases against the State which, in turn, results in judgments being entered in default. This has been the major contributing factor to the huge cost the Government has been incurring on compensation and awards, which has averaged K200 million during the period 2011 to 2013. 

Mr Chairperson, the shortage of judges in the High Court and, to some extent, in the Supreme Court, has greatly hampered the rate at which justice is dispensed by the Judiciary. In order to remedy this situation, we intend to expedite the recruitment of judges in the coming year. 

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba, SC.: In the 2014 financial year, the ministry has allocated K23.9 million for personal emoluments, …

The Chairperson: Order, on my extreme right!

Mr Mucheleka: Sikazwe.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … K130.3 million for non-personal emoluments programmes and K100 million for compensation and awards, bringing the total to K254.2 million. 

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the ministry will continue with interventions that contribute to the deepening of the rule of law, promotion of human rights and civil liberties, and sustenance of good governance in the country. I, therefore, appeal to this august House to fully support the proposed 2014 Budget for the Ministry of Justice. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate the policy statement on the Estimates for the Ministry of Justice. In doing so, I will concentrate mainly on governance issues. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2010 or thereabout, when I was a …

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: … civil society activist and the MMD, which was in Government then, created problems for Zambians who wanted to have a good Constitution, I told the MMD that, the writing was on the wall, and that, come 2011, it would lose the elections. Its members did not believe us because they thought that they were very strong and in control of all the instruments of power. Where are they today? Are they not on this side with me?

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: Look at them.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: They are here with me. 

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Tell them.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, today, I am telling the PF Government —

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

You said, “Tell them.” Now that he is telling you, you are saying, “Question!”

Laughter

Mr Mucheleka: Mark my words.

Mr Kalaba: You will not come back.

Mr Mucheleka: It does not matter, Mr Chairperson, whether I come back or not. I do not care about that. However, I care for this country.

Mr Chipungu: Yes.

Mr Mucheleka: This Government, come 2016, if it messes up …

Mr Mbulakulima: Point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mucheleka: ... on the Constitution-making process, ...

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: ... risks losing the elections in 2016.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I thank you…

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: … for giving me this rare opportunity to raise a point of order.

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, is the hon. Member for Lubansenshi, who is debating, in order to say that he warned the MMD against mishandling the Constitution-making process without telling the House that he regrets having supported the current Government, which has become more brutal than the one it replaced?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Is he in order not to indicate that?

The Chairperson: As you debate, Hon. Mucheleka, maybe, you may wish to take that point of order into account.

You may continue.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, yes, the MMD Government felt strongly that it was standing on firm ground because it had undertaken many development programmes, especially in the rural areas.

Mr Kapeya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised but, as usual, it will be the last on this debater.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, is the civil rights activist in order to use the phrase ‘messed up’ in this Chamber?

I need your ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: Hon. Mucheleka, you are being reminded that the expression ‘messed up’ is unparliamentary.

Please, you continue.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the expression and replace it with ‘failed to honour the promise.’ 

Sir, on page 42, the PF Manifesto even cited K135 billion as having been wasted by the MMD on Constitution-making. Where are we today? Have we not spent more than K100 million on the same exercise? Today, we are being told that we do not need a new Constitution and that we should just amend the existing one. Forget it. You are mistaken. The people of Zambia are very particular about governance issues. Lusaka, where I have lived for the past twenty-five years, has different issues. The MMD had the so-called Formula One Roads Project, which never worked for it. The same things you are doing will not work for you. I live in Lusaka.

The Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Member, I have been trying to see the link between what you are saying and Ministry of Justice.

Mr Kalaba: Awe, tapali.

The Chairperson: I think that we are veering off the main subject. Maybe, you should link it nicely so that I understand. 

Continue.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Justice is supposed to be at the centre of promoting good governance.

Mr Chipungu: Yes.

Mr Mucheleka: I have stated, on the Floor of this House, that there is a positive correlation between good governance and economic growth. In an environment where you have very bad governance, even the progress that you may seemingly be making in growing the economy cannot be sustained.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to ask the hon. Minister of Justice whether he is aware of the 2007 African Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance. To what extent have we been able to ratify, domesticate and implement this charter? If we can follow that charter and its objectives, then, we can realise the need to link governance with development. The Charter looks at issues like democratic values, separation of powers, transparency and accountability. It is the Ministry of Justice that should be at the centre of driving that process.

Mr Chairperson, in this country, we know that the institutions of governance are very weak. This is why we took time, when we were called upon by the PF Government, to make submissions on the Constitution-making process at a huge cost, starting from districts, going on to the provinces and, finally, to the national level. We looked at the aspect of strengthening the institutions of governance. The Ministry of Justice is supposed to strengthen the Constitutional offices because, in their current form, they are very weak, partly because our current Constitution vests too much power in the Presidency. That is why we seem to be having problems with ...

Ms Kapata: Question!

Mr Mucheleka: … moving forward. That is why we made those submissions on the Constitution. It is still my hope and desire that the PF Government will be able to listen to the cries of the people of Zambia and give the people of Zambia a Constitution that will respond to their aspirations and needs. Only then can we have a stable democracy. Currently, even our democracy is very fragile because of the weak institutional framework.

Mr Chairperson, in the Draft Constitution, at least, in the bit that I looked at at the Mulungushi International Conference Centre and at the National Convention, the issues of strengthening and reforming the Judiciary, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) and the Auditor-General (AG), among others, were taken into account. We needed a good Constitution yesterday, not today, and I want the hon. Minister of Justice, as he winds up this debate, to respond to the matter I have just raised. It worries me that he did not say anything on the Constitution in his statement on the ministry’s budget.

Mr Sikazwe: Why are you worried?

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister takes the Floor, he should address that matter. 

Sir, I reluctantly support the budget that we are discussing. I am still hopeful that the issues I have raised will be taken into account. This country requires a completely new Constitution. We should not talk about partial amendments. Your own manifesto speaks volumes on page 42. Honour your promise. Integrity is about keeping your word. Honour and integrity demand that you keep your word.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lombanya (Solwezi East): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my thoughts and the voice of the people of Solwezi East to the very important debate on the Floor of this House. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, I would like to join my friends who have spoken before me in addressing myself to the question of the Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Mr Chairperson, I do so because I have been associated with this process for the past twenty-three years. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Well read!

Ms Lubezhi: Quality!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, from 1990, the people of Zambia have been saying the same thing, which is that they want a good Constitution. They repeated the same sentiments in 1993, and from 2003 to 2005 under the Mung’omba Constitutional Review Commission. They have never wavered.

Ms Lubezhi: Quality!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, what they said in October, 1990, is the same thing they said in April, 2003. So, one wonders where the problem is. From my experience, the problem lies in the lack of political will from our political leadership. The problem that we have is that we want to create a Constitution to suit individuals, yet we claim to want a Constitution for the people of Zambia. When we say that we want a Constitution that will stand the test of time, we should be looking at posterity, not at somebody who is in office at any given time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Lombanya: Mr Chairperson, it is saddening that, even during the Constitution review process, during the thematic discussions, some people could argue on personal grounds. For example, they would ask, “If these powers are taken away from the President, what will he remain with?” That is the reason we are saying that the Constitution is not for the President, but for the people of Zambia. Some of them would say that some proposals could not be accepted because the economy of Zambia could not sustain them. We are not talking about today, but about fifty years from now.

Sir, a Constitution, by and large, just creates principles. Therefore, we can make a proviso to enact subsidiary legislation and effect some provisions at a later stage when the economy would have improved.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Tell them.

Ms Lubezhi: He is well read.

Mr Lombanya: Mr Chairperson, this afternoon, I was saddened to listen to my learned hon. Minister who, throughout his well-presented speech, did not mention the most important thing, the one that holds this country together, and that is the Constitution. It is the Constitution that governs the country, not the people. The people are just players in the process. That is why, before clubs are registered, the authority asks for a constitution to determine how the club will work. 

Ms Lubezhi: Correct.

Mr Lombanya: Mr Chairperson, however, today, we were told that the Constitution that is in effect is defective, and I do agree that it is defective in many ways because it was not meant to last. It was initially meant to only facilitate Zambia’s transition from a One-party State to Multi-partism. It was a six months project just to make it possible for Zambia to move ahead and go back to multi-partism. Thereafter, Zambians were supposed to sit down and review the Constitution and, in 1993, rightly so, the late President, Dr Chiluba, may his soul rest in peace, saw it fit to have the Constitution reviewed so that the people of Zambia could have a document that could guide their lives and progress, and take care of their human rights. 

Sir, we were very fortunate because the donors came along and offered to sponsor the process.

Ms Lubezhi: Do they have donors, those?

Mr Lombanya: However, it was on the condition that, to avoid what happened during the Mvunga Constitution Review process, whereby the document was doctored at night, …

Mr Muntanga: Oh, oh!

Ms Imenda: Who were there then?

Laughter

Ms Lubezhi: By whom?

Mr Lombanya: … a memorandum of understanding (MOU) was to be signed. They said that they would give us the money provided we expanded the mandate of the process so that it could accommodate most Zambians. Hence, the Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission was constituted. The Scandinavians and Americans came on board and asked us to assure them that we would not doctor the document. To ensure compliance with that condition, they demanded that an interim report be published and given to the people at the end of the process so that the people could know that it contained their proposals. That was the condition on which the Americans and the Scandinavians would fund the exercise. The idea was to ensure that when the document was given to the Executive, if something else came out from there, the donors would know …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we are listening very attentively to a very well thought-out debate on the Floor of this House. Therefore, is Hon. Mwaliteta in order to continue ranting and making running commentaries, as if ….

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: … he is not in this House?

Hon. Government Members: Question!

The Chairperson: Order!

Let us just ensure that we keep order. Actually, I am looking this way because the person debating is on my left. However, I must admit that I saw Hon. Mwiimbu pointing his finger at somebody, but I was wondering to whom he was doing it. 

Laughter

The Chairperson: So, it appears there was a non-verbal communication between Hon. Mwiimbu and Hon. Mwaliteta. Please, can the two of you keep order.

You may continue, Hon. Lombanya.

Mr Lombanya: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was trying to illustrate how the lack of political will can hinder people’s progress.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, when the interim report was published, there was dust raised from the Executive, whose members said that we had stabbed the President in the back after he had given us jobs. They forgot that they had signed an agreement. The then hon. Minister of Legal Affairs and the Attorney-General had signed the MOU agreeing to the terms of reference. That is what made the donors give us the money for the process.

Mr Chairperson, on the day of presentation of the report to the President, again, there was an issue. Just before we gave the documents to the President, somebody, from nowhere, appeared and asked who we thought ourselves to be and that he had wrongly thought that the late Mr Mwanakatwe, may his soul rest in peace, was a better lawyer than the late Dr Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace.

Ms Lubezhi: Who was that person?

Mr Lombanya: So, when we went to actually give the President the documents, it was a very sombre moment. The President just received the documents whilst looking elsewhere, and we knew that the document was destined for the dustbin. In the afternoon, we were called to State House and asked why we had done what we had done …

Mr Mulenga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me the opportunity to raise this point of order. 

Sir, I have been listening attentively to my colleague who is debating on the Floor of the House. He started by giving a historical perspective of the Constitution review exercise from the Dr Chiluba days. Now, he is remaining with five minutes to finish his debate, yet I have failed to link what he is talking about …

The Chairperson: What is your point of order, hon. Minister?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, is he in order not to have linked, at this point, what he is talking about to the Motion on the Floor of the House, which is the Budget? I have failed to link the Budget with what the hon. Member is debating.

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Chairperson: It is the policy statement on the Ministry of Justice, and he is talking about the Constitution-making process which, I think, is relevant to the Motion. So, please, let him finish ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the document was shelved. We went, …

The Chairperson: ... and that is the last point of order I am allowing on him.

Mr Lombanya: … back to the Mvunga Constitution and amended it. That is the Constitution we are currently using, a document that was condemned. That is why I agree that it is defective and that we should replace it.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, the Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission made a lot of progress by introducing very progressive and novel clauses and articles in the new draft, which were, again, picked up by the Mung’omba Commission. I think that both the Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba documents were even attested to by the Commonwealth officers who came here.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Mr Chairperson, during the drafting, we had Commonwealth representation. The Commonwealth sent two professors, who worked with us during the drafting, and I think that those documents were attested to. Now, I do not see how, to this date, we still do not have a Constitution. 

Sir, the Mung’omba Constitution Review Commission only used K7 billion for travelling abroad and everything. To be specific, the Mung’omba Commission only used K6.3 billion. Now, how much money has been spent on the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution? We are now told that we cannot move ahead with that document, and that we will go back to the current one and amend it again, just like we did in 1996. However, we cannot override the wishes of the people because we do not have the right to do so.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, it is the people who should drive the Constitution review process. It is the consent and the will of the people that will determine the value of the Constitution, and give it legitimacy and moral authority. Without the people, our efforts are null and void.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I support …

Mr Nkombo: Clamour versus clamour.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: … this budget for the Ministry of Justice. 

Sir, as a peasant farmer, I want to state that we have to discuss matters affecting this country frankly and openly. I know that some people, whatever they call themselves, cannot even grow a single plant.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I would like the ministry to dispense justice. Justice delayed is justice denied. I know that the debate is on the Budget, but we have to talk about the policies because I do believe that even the policy that was mentioned earlier mentioned things that are not in the Budget. I was elected while some have failed to be elected to this day. What we are now talking about is that we have seen situations where people are arrested and we have started using the nolle prosequis as a means of coming out of embarrassing situations.

Mr Chairperson, some rejoice that the people who were incarcerated have come out of prison. However, why were they arrested and imprisoned in the first time? So, they now enter nolle prosequis so that they stop the other person from getting a fair judgment. If a person had no case, and you held him, like my nephew here (pointing at Hon. Nkombo) …

Mr. Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … was held for three weeks, …

Mr Nkombo: Kamuti konyamuka bakubone!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … accused of murder.

You are still alive, …

Mr Nkombo: Baandityola kwanza!

Mr Muntanga: … then, all of a sudden, because you cannot link this person to what you have accused him of doing, you go and enter a nolle prosequi. You do that to block the person you arrested from claiming compensation. That is injustice.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice should understand that he should not allow situations whereby, every single time he fails to handle a case in court, he enters a nolle prosequi. Sometimes, a nolle prosequi is entered because you do not want to hurt another person. We have seen that. So, we want to remind the hon. Minister of Justice that people look at him as a mirror. We need to go there and see if we are behaving well and whether we are able to live together in harmony. The tendency by some people to talk and trivialise what another person is saying is not right.

Sir, the hon. Member for Solwezi East talked about the Constitution very well. All we are saying is that these reforms in the Judiciary that you are talking about should come to pass. 

The farmers complain that you have put a poster showing a cow on the road and that, when a motorist hits a cow, the law stipulates that the owner of the animal should pay the owner of the vehicle, who should see better, but hit the animal. Please, help us. That farmer has lost an animal.  A peasant farmer who needs assistance from the Government is not given support. So, the owner of the cow suffers a loss and he is, again, told to pay the motorist, who has insurance cover, because the rules are that you cannot drive a vehicle that is not insured. Can the Government help us by looking at these laws. We told our people that everything will be okay, yet people do not get what they were promised. 

Mr Nkombo: Kamubambila Sinyinda mbowasika ku Mongu sunu.

Mr Muntanga: This man from the Western Province, the former Prime Minister, …

Mr Nkombo: The Ngambela.

Mr Muntanga: … the Ngambela, we detained him, and now we have entered a nolle prosequi. I am told that he is now a hero in the Western Province.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: We have made him big by acting irrationally.

Mr Nkombo: Even me, he is my hero.

Mr Muntanga: The man has landed there now in a big way because we acted irrationally. If the hon. Minister of Justice finds that a case is frivolous, he should acquit and discharge the accused person, not to enter a nolle prosequi. I know that there is a border line between your ministry and the police, which is under the Ministry of Home Affairs. However, I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Justice that justice delayed is justice denied. We should reach a stage where the system could prevent the police from unnecessarily arresting people only to withdraw the case at a later stage. Like I said, I know that there is a paper thin difference between the Ministry of Home Affairs and Ministry of Justice. 

Mr Chairperson, I have seen very little increase to salaries for civil servants in this ministry the under this Vote. On the other hand, eighteen State advocates at the Ministry of Justice have been fired for merely demanding more money. It is true that there is a need for discipline but, if dictatorship comes into play, more and more government workers will keep being fired. Today, you can fire eighteen, tomorrow, it will be 200 and, the following day, 400. Immediately you fire eighteen, we should multiply eighteen by ten because these lawyers have families. In other words, the firing of these eighteen lawyers will affect 180 people. 

Sir, we have been told on the Floor of this House that we would increase the number of lawyers at the Legal Aid Board, which provides legal aid. Where do we get them when those who were in the system have been fired? We should be aware that the lawyers who have been fired will be absorbed by private law firms. Once they get used to getting quick money, we will not be able to attract them back to the Public Service. Lawyers in the private sector get a lot of money even by just doing consultancy. Before a lawyer can open his/her mouth, you have to first put money on the table. Before opening their mouths, it is chibanununa mulomo for lawyers.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: The lawyers the Government has fired were used to the public system. They might have been paid a non-practising allowance but, we still have to bear with them because, at the end of the day, the money they were getting was still not enough. Their friends in private practice, those who are good lawyers, are making a lot of money. Those who do not make money, it is their own problem because then they are not good lawyers. For a peasant farmer like me to hire a lawyer, I must know that he/she is good and I will give him/her a few cows to convert into money. I cannot go to a lawyer who is not good at what he/she does. Therefore, the Ministry of Justice must ensure that we have a fair deal all over.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, we have a serious problem with regard to legal matters in this country. I was talking about Judge Chikopa when we were looking at the Vote for the Judiciary. I said that the Ministry of Justice should be the one to advise on this matter. We have no problem when the Government uses local judges to preside over legal matters. There is a tribunal that is currently being presided over by local judges. Who is talking about it? We do not talk about it because it is a local issue. 

Mr Nkombo interjected.

Mr Muntanga: Whatever the defendants did, it is an issue for Zambians and we will sit down and talk about it ourselves. Let us use our own lawyers and judges. Why are our colleagues on your right not happy with their own people? Whatever the Government wants to do, we should not hire people from outside. However, we have started hearing stories of the Government wanting to get people from Sri Lanka, Malaysia and India to work at the Ministry of Justice. Why are we leaving Zambians out? We say that there is unemployment in this country, but we want to employ foreigners. There are so many people who want to be employed. Let us look at this matter seriously. 

Mr Chairperson, I do not know why so many people fail at the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE). Let us find out what the problem is. I have heard stories of some people not wanting to have too many lawyers in this country, hence failing most of the students who write examinations at ZIALE. I do not know how true that is because I have not gone there. I am a peasant farmer who knows best what to do in agriculture.

Mr Nkombo: What time to plant.

Mr Muntanga: I am happy to do that. However, I want a system in which my work is protected. What we are doing in agriculture is for the survival of the people of this country. They will not mind the number of times I have been to the library at Parliament or anywhere else. 

Mr Nkombo interjected.

Mr Muntanga: I have been elected three times.

The Chairperson: Order!

Why are the two of you now discussing.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson …

Mr Nkombo: Ta mwambide.

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, you cannot solve the problems …

The Chairperson: Order!

I think this is the first time I will want Hon. Nkombo to move away from where he is to sit near Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Nkombo went and sat next to Mr Mwiimbu.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, my nephew is very annoyed about having been arrested for three weeks and, then, being released on a nolle prosequi. That is why he is having this problem. He had his arm broken, but the one who broke his arm could not be arrested. There is no justice because his assailant is seated opposite him smiling.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Obviously, it is Hon. Mwaliteta.

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Muntanga!

You were debating very well but, as soon as you began mentioning names, you went against our rules. Please, do not mention names.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry for mentioning names. I just wanted to go as close to the truth as possible, but you have ruled and I will adhere to that. 

All we are appealing to the hon. Minister of Justice to do is to listen to the people, whether they are peasant farmers or mere citizens. He should not think that he is the only educated person because he did law. This idea of saying, ‘I am learned’ and wanting to belittle others is not correct. This is what makes …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, is Hon. Muntanga in order to keep referring to learned people and looking at me, instead of addressing issues to the Chair?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Indeed, Hon. Muntanga, as you debate, stop looking at Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Muntanga: I am sorry for seeming to look at him. I was actually looking at my nephew, whom I want to come back.

The Chairperson: Order! 

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Justice, who I, sometimes, call a brother, although it is not allowed in this House, because I was told that he is not what I had thought he was – I was told that my brother was a Bisa or Bemba. I still have to argue with him. However, I want to appeal to him to bear with me. What I want is the Ministry of Justice to take care of all these legal matters that need attention …

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Muntanga!

I think that you have exhausted you debate.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, it is your decision. I thank you very much.

The Chairperson: Thank you.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, I thank my two colleagues who have debated.

Hon. Members: They were three.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Yes, three. I want to give a preamble by stating that I hope that President Sata is listening because I want to thank him for nominating me to the House because I would have missed a lot if I had not come here.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: From what I have heard in the last twelve months of being part of this House ...

Mr Chairperson, the debate on the budget for the Ministry of Justice is most welcome. On the Constitution-making process, I just want to say that the anxieties and apprehensions of my colleague are misplaced.

Hon. Member: Question! 

Mr Kabimba, SC.: I will be issuing a statement to the House in the next few days to clarify these anxieties. It is my hope that we will be able to settle many issues.

Mr Chairperson, let me just say this: I have heard this argument about nominated hon. Members versus the elected ones. I think that we have to be very careful. I would never be proud of myself to be elected in a Bantustan.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: I would not stand on Mount Olympus and scream to the high heavens that I am the best …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
    
Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I stand as a very sad person on a point of order on the hon. Minister of Justice. In his discourse, the hon. Minister indicated how happy he was and how he wished that His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Sata, was listening to him as a nominated hon. Member of Parliament and that, and acknowledged that, if the President had not nominated him, he would not have known about the many things that take place in this House. He went on to thank the President for having enabled him to be here during the period that he has, and that he would not be a proud hon. Member of Parliament if he had been elected from a Bantustan, referring to the debate that came from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central.

 Sir, according to the Member’s Handbook, on Page 23:
    
“While on the Floor of the House, Members shall not use offensive expressions about the conduct of the proceedings of Parliament.”

Sir, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, a Bantustan is a South African historical derogatory and partially self-governing area set aside during the period of Apartheid for a particular indigenous people or so-called homeland. Is the hon. Minister of  Justice in order to use such an unpalatable and derogatory term on fellow hon. Members of Parliament, such as ourselves, who were elected by the people of this country, which is not a homeland? 

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that, to the extent that the hon. Minister of Justice referred to a Bantustan when, in fact, none of the 150 constituencies in Zambia is located in a Bantustan, he was out of order. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: However, let me, perhaps, guide the House. You see, debates are not a contest about who ridicules the other the most. We must debate in an honourable manner. This is why we are an honourable House and that is why we are called hon. Members.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

This applies to both the left and the right. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It is such conduct that is not honourable. Let us debate in an honourable fashion. Let us exchange well-reasoned ideas with a view to convincing each other. Let us desist from competing in the manner that shows that one wants to show that he can ridicule the other more. I do not think that is the way to go. I hope that this guidance is enough, and it applies to both hon. Members on my left and those on my right. Let us be civil in our debate.

 When colleagues are debating, please, those of you who are in the habit of debating while seated should desist from that practice because, even if I look to my left, I know the voices of three quarters of the hon. Members of Parliament on my right and I know who is in the habit of commenting literally on any contribution. By the same token, when I am looking to my right and there is somebody on my left commenting, I know you. I know your voices so much, especially those who specialise in the art of debating while seated. We know you. It is not that we are afraid of taking appropriate steps. We just want to give you room to realise that you have opened your mouth unnecessarily long.

I think, this is enough and we may proceed.

The hon. Minister of Justice may continue.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. 

Sir, before business was suspended, I was winding up my debate in response to the issues raised by hon. Members of Parliament on the budget of the Ministry of Justice. Let me just make two important points as I wind up. The first is that the PF Government is, indeed, committed to a people driven Constitution and will endeavour, in the interests of the people of Zambia, to ensure that this process is undertaken to its logical conclusion. The other point is that there was a submission on the Floor that we are not observing the tenets of good governance. I would like to respond, on behalf of the Government, and without any doubt, that we have done far much better in this area than past Governments.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: I also want to doubt the theory that good governance automatically leads to economic development. Sir, there are studies that have been carried out. A particular one that I remember off-the-cuff is a study that was carried out in countries of the Far East, such as Indonesia and Malaysia, when they were under military rule. The study’s findings actually clearly showed that those countries made great strides in economic growth during that time than they did when they converted to civil government. Therefore, this idea, which is prevalent in our civil society organisations, that this is the only theory …

Mr Mucheleka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Minister of Justice in order to contest the need for us to have a clear linkage between good governance and sustained economic growth in Zambia so that we can prosper?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Chairperson, my comment was not a denial. I was just trying to disprove the theory, and I think I have disproved it. I am not contesting the fact that any country, today, in the 21st Century, needs the tenets of good governance. I hope I have made myself clear. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank all my colleagues who have debated and supported the budget for the Ministry of Justice.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!   

Vote 31/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31/02 - (Ministry of Justice – Attorney-General’s Chambers – K132,198,814).

Mr Lufuma: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4033, Activity 010 – Judicial Reforms – Nil. This year, we had allocated K1,490,000 to this activity. Next year, however, there is no allocation. Could the hon. Minister confirm that the non-allocation of any funds is an indication that the judicial reforms have been successfully completed.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, this allocation was meant to cater for judicial reforms. The activity has been re-aligned to the Governance Department, Unit 03, Programme 9000 – Access to Justice – K365,568 on page 508.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 31/ 02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88 – (Office of the President – Muchinga Province – K44,628,942), Vote 90 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – K71,735,283), Vote 91 – (Office of the President – Copperbelt Province – K86,543,109), Vote 92 – (Office of the President – Central Province – K71,183,670), Vote 93 – (Office of the President – Northern Province – K88,641,594), Vote 94 – (Office of the President – Western Province – K71,469,364), Vote 95 – (Office of the President – Eastern Province – K78,183,138), Vote 96 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – K70,266,728), Vote 97 – (Office of the President – North-Western Province – K72,498,449) and Vote 98 (Office of the President – Southern Province – K95,327,161).
    
The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Chairperson, we now arrive at the block buster …
    
Laughter

The Vice-President: … ten consolidated Heads, one for each province, and a total of 271 sub-Heads. There is plenty of opportunity for filibustering if one is in the mood, which I hope nobody is.

Mr Chairperson, it is with great honour that I rise to present to this August House the policy statement in support of the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Office of the President, Provincial Administration, for 2014.

Mr Chairperson, provincial administration is an extension of the Central Government at the regional level. It is responsible for civil administration and effective co-ordination and implementation of national policies and programmes in the province. To achieve its mandate, provincial administration is guided by the following mission statement:

“To co-ordinate and administer implementation of national policies and programmes in the province in order to enhance service delivery and promote sustainable development.” 

Mr Chairperson, I think that should have read, “… policies and programmes in the provinces,”

Mr Chairperson, the provincial administration is well-positioned to administer and co-ordinate the implementation of development programmes on behalf of the sector ministries because it is closer to the people. In our quest to promote sustainable development and equitable provision of quality services, the 2014 Budget is aimed at providing provincial administrations with requisite resources for effective and efficient implementation of development programmes.

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, significant progress has been made in the key priority areas of social and economic development. Particular attention was paid to the implementation of core programmes such as infrastructure development, poverty reduction, human development, environmental sustainability and decentralisation. Let me start with infrastructure development. 

Mr Chairperson, this administration acknowledges the critical role played by infrastructure in the attainment of meaningful and sustainable socio-economic development. To this effect, we continued developing new infrastructure and improving some existing roads and other transport and communication infrastructure across the country. This is aimed at opening up productive areas and improving the transportation of goods and services throughout the country.

Mr Chairperson, the construction of other social outlay infrastructure, such as schools and health facilities, has also been accelerated. 

Mr Chairperson, thirdly, regarding poverty reduction, a viable agricultural sector is critical in the fight against poverty because the majority of our people still depend on it. Therefore, improving the sectors productivity can leave an indelible positive mark on poverty levels. Based on each province’s agricultural potential and comparative advantage, the Government increased resource allocation to the sector, through interventions like the Farmer Input Support Programmes (FISP), construction of livestock service centres and provincial livestock laboratories across the country and aquaculture and capture fisheries. Notwithstanding the increased resource allocation, unfavourable weather patterns experienced during the 2012/2013 Agricultural Season negatively impacted on the crop sub-sector, leading to low yields in many areas of the country. Interventions in the livestock sub-sector not only averted large-scale livestock disease outbreaks, but have also seen an improvement in the general performance of the sub-sector.

Mr Chairperson, before I read the third item, with your indulgence, let me drink some water.

The Vice-President drank some water.

Interruptions 

The Vice-President: Sir, it feels good to have friends on the other side of the House who worry about my health.

Mr Chairperson, thirdly, to accelerate human development, a number of health and education facilities have been completed while other projects are still on-going. To operationalise the completed facilities, the Government has acquired and will continue acquiring the necessary equipment and other requisites while the vital human resource has been recruited. Further, there has been an increase in the number of safe water points across the country. This has seen a significant rise in the portion of people with sustained access to safe and clean drinking water. 

Mr Chairperson, fourthly, environmental sustainability is an indispensable ingredient to achieving sustainable development. We, therefore, promote it in escalated measures, such as afforestation and reforestation. I do not know the difference between the two concepts, wait a minute, I think I actually do. Afforestation is to turn a place that is not a forest into a forest while reforestation is to turn a deforested place back into a forest. These measures are complemented by other natural resource management interventions like community-based resource management programmes. The aim is to mitigate the adverse effects of environmental degradation as a result of human activities.

Fifthly, in order to accelerate equitable development throughout the country, the Government is actively pursuing the decentralisation exercise so as to move services closer to the people. For this reason, thirty new districts have been created since September, 2011. We have also established the Provincial Devolution and Decentralisation Taskforces to oversee the decentralisation process.

Mr Chairperson, the combined 2014 Budget Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Office of the President, Provincial Administration, is over K750 million. This is up from K557 million allocated during the current year and represents an increase of 35 per cent. It is a very considerable hike, given that inflation is about 8 per cent.

Sir, of the total 2014 Budget, an average of 41 per cent will go towards Personal Emoluments while the remaining 59 per cent will go towards various programmes and developmental projects to be undertaken under the poverty reduction programmes, capital projects and some recurrent expenditure programmes.

Mr Chairperson, cognisant of the unique needs and the comparative advantage of each province in meeting the mission statement, there has been a fair progressive increase in the 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for each province. I will not give details for each province, but I will just point out some highlights. 

Sir, the lion’s share goes, as it did in the current year, to the Southern Province, with close to K100 million, followed by the Northern and Copperbelt provinces. The other provinces are farther behind. Muchinga is slated to only consume K44 million. From the foregoing, you will note that Muchinga Province has the lowest percentage increase. This is attributed to the fact that the province is yet to have a full staff complement. The provincial headquarters also do not have the infrastructure or the people yet that it is planned to have while the other provinces do. We will build up the province over the years.

Sir, the 2014 Budget has been prepared in line with the revised Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP) and builds on successes and lessons learnt during the implementation of the first half of the same plan. 

Mr Chairperson, as we look forward to 2014, provincial administrations will continue to co-ordinate, plan, implement, monitor and evaluate development programmes aimed at facilitating broad-based economic growth. This will ensure poverty reduction, employment creation and human development. The main focus will, therefore, be on infrastructure development, human development, poverty reduction, agriculture development, water and sanitation, and environmental sustainability.

Sir, we should strengthen our supervision of the increased and continued investment in infrastructure development. Apart from improving the road and other communication infrastructure, a provision has made to fully operationalise the newly-established districts across the country by building the necessary infrastructure. Further, a provision has been made to purchase some earth-moving equipment for the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) to be used in upgrading access roads. This might fall under the purview of the Link Zambia 8,000 Road Project. 

Mr Chairperson, activities and measures aimed at raising awareness and strengthening the protection of our citizens’ rights to education, health and other social economic rights shall be intensified in 2014. The Government is, therefore, re-aligning the Budget to respond to social challenges by tackling issues of employment creation and poverty reduction. This has been done by increasing allocations to empowerment programmes in the key socio-economic sectors, namely, youth, child, sports, tourism, social welfare and community development. Further, we will enhance the fight against HIV/AIDS, a battle we are beginning to win, but is not yet won; sexually transmitted infections, generally; malaria; and other non-communicable diseases by up-scaling preventive and curative interventions and increasing the number of health facilities across the country.

Sir, as I indicated earlier, a viable agricultural sector still remains critical in the fight against poverty and is a major driver of sustainable economic growth. In this regard, the crop, livestock and fisheries sub-sectors will be major priority areas in 2014. With regard to environmental sustainability, we shall continue and accelerate the afforestation and reforestation activities coupled with citizens’ social awareness programmes and education. This is aimed at stemming the tide of environment degradation and enhancing bio-diversity.

Mr Chairperson, in view of aforementioned, I urge this august House to support the Office of the President, Provincial Administration’s 2014 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Before I invite hon. Members to debate, may I just give some guidance on how we will debate the provincial Heads. I will allow three hon. Members to debate on each provincial Head. The contributions can be in any order, as long as they do not exceed three. The hon. Provincial Ministers will wind up the debates after the hon. Members have finished contributing on the individual Head concerned. I hope that is clear. 

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the Southern Province, I wish to state that, today, on the Floor of this House, we have heard the reasons we are being discriminated against. We have heard that we are not equal to other areas, and that we are an inferior area in the Zambian political dispensation.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, we have noted, with concern, that this is the very reason those who have considered themselves to be superior have decided to export expatriate staff to the Southern Province because it is an inferior province. We have realised, today, that we are lagging behind in terms of development because we are an inferior province. We have realised, today, that some individuals cannot associate themselves with areas like the Southern Province. We have heard that on the Floor of this House.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The people of the Southern Province and other areas have heard the reasons there is under-development in the Southern Province.

Mr Ng’onga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for, once again, according me an opportunity to rise on a point of order. Is the hon. Member for Monze Central, who is debating on the Floor, in order to take that line of debate, which is very divisive, without facts? 

I seek your serious ruling.

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: I think that we must be patient enough to listen to one another. That is what will make us progress.

Continue, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the point has been made and the people of the Southern Province have heard. 

Mr Chairperson, today, I read in The Post newspaper, in which it was reported that the President of Zambia would light the country. Further, my Provincial Minister, Hon. Munkombwe, indicated that the current President was the saviour of this country and that the previous Governments and Presidents did not do anything pertaining to power generation. However, I would like to pay glowing tribute to the late President, Dr Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace, for initiating the Kariba North Bank Extension Project.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I would like to also pay glowing tribute to Former President, Rupiah Banda, who ensured that that project took off. 

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: It is because of the hard work of those former Presidents that the current President is able to go and commission the project.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

Hon. Government Member: Who is paying?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: That project is being paid for by the people of Zambia.

Hon Government Members: So?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, as people who hail from the Southern Province and other areas, such as Mwembeshi, where I am married from – and I note that I have a brother-in-law in this House, who also comes from that area which is also discriminated against – I want to state that Mwembeshi …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: … District in Lusaka Province, where my relatives come from ...

Hon. Opposition Member: Shibuyunji.

Mr Mwiimbu: Shibuyunji is one of those areas where we have an hon. Member of Parliament (looking at the back) …

The Deputy Chairperson: May you address the Chairperson. The Chairperson is not at the back.

Mr Mwiimbu: I am sorry, Sir. 

I wanted to acknowledge my colleague, but he is not in the House. The hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembeshi hails from Shibuyunji, Sala land, which is one of those areas that are being discriminated against, judging from some pronouncements. We have looked forward to development being taken to those areas. However, because of the in-built discriminatory tendencies, we are not benefiting …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. 

Sir, this country is composed of seventy-three tribes, and I believe that its governance can only be meaningful if all the areas and tribes are united. Therefore, is the hon. Member of Parliament who is debating in order to insinuate that some areas are discriminated against because of certain pronouncements without giving us which pronouncements made him believe …

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: … that some area is being discriminated against? If, indeed, it is based on …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Kambwili: I am coming to it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: May you get to your point of order. Your preamble is too long.

Mr Kambwili: If, indeed, it is about the word ‘Bantustan,’ we have seen members of the United Party for National Development (UPND), during by-elections, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!{mospagebreak}

Can you raise your point of order.

Mr Kambwili: … wearing T-shirts written ‘Bantustan.’ 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister!

Hon. Opposition Members: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Is he in order to debate in the manner in which he is debating, misleading the people of Zambia that the PF Government is discriminating against certain areas?

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member is entitled to his opinion.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili indicated dissent. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

At an appropriate time, the hon. Minister responsible for the Southern Province, who is busy taking down notes, will respond. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I was avoiding the term ‘Bantustan’ but, now that Hon. Kambwili has used it, …

Hon. Kambwili interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Kambwili, I think, it is important that we observe order. I heard say, ‘‘Let us invoke certain provisions of Standing Orders to complain about certain decisions.’’ I do not think that this is a campaign Chamber. You are at liberty to make your complaint, but do so without campaigning. You are an hon. Minister, and we do not expect anything short of honourable behaviour from you. 

Mr Kambwili left the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, now that the …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I am saddened to rise on this point of order. 

Sir, the procedures of this House are very clear, at least, to those hon. Members who have been here since before the 2011 Elections. We know that it is not allowed for an hon. Member to walk out on the Chair soon after …

Hon. Government Members: What is your point of order?

Mr Mwiimbu: Let him finish.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let the man raise his point of order and, afterwards, a ruling will be made. 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, as I make my point of order, I would like to borrow the sentiments of Hon. Kabimba, SC., who said that reading is a very important facet of life for one to fit in any situation. The Standing Orders do not permit an hon. Member, regardless of who he or she is, even His Honour the Vice-President, to walk out on the Chair immediately after a ruling. Therefore, is hon. Kambwili in order to have stood up …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: … soon after you made a ruling? 

I need a ruling from you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I think that all of us are familiar with points of order and when they can be raised. We are also familiar with the Standing Orders. It is definitely not in order to walk out of the Chamber immediately after a ruling has been made because that is an expression of dissent. To that extent, the hon. Member, even if he is not here, was out of order.

Continue, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, now that the term that I did not want to use has been used on the Floor of this House, and the UPND is being accused of believing in Bantustans, I want to state that it is the basis of my belief that we are being discriminated against.

Mr Mucheleka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. Please, note that it is the last one I will permit on this debater.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, I am seated here, listening to the debate by Hon. Mwiimbu. Is Hon. Jean Kapata, the Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, in order to say, “Twakulamipononafye, mwalitumpa” to me, …

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Meaning?

Mr Mucheleka: ... meaning that we, on the left, are unreasonable and that the PF will unleash cadres on us with machetes? 

Is she is in order to use such language? 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Let us guide each other. I have, time and again, called for order in the House. If you continue debating while seated, you put the Chair in a position in which he is unable to hear the complaint that you are now raising. In view of that, I am unable to make a ruling on your point of order because people were debating while seated and, as such, I did not follow. 

Continue, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that derogatory statements like the one that has been used by Hon. Kambwili to describe us are the essence of my belief that the people of the Southern Province and other UPND strongholds are being discriminated against.

Mr Chairperson, for those who do not know, those who lived in Bantustans in South Africa were being discriminated against by the Apartheid regime. It, therefore, follows …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

I have made a ruling to the effect that the use of the term ‘Bantustan’ is unparliamentary because none of the 150 constituencies in Zambia is a Bantustan. So, I hope that you will veer into other points. Do not belabour the point. The use of the word was definitely out of order. 

Continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, it is just that it has been repeated. That is why I had to raise it. I want to state that …

Mr Mwenya interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, if Hon. Mwenya continues like that, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Members of Parliament, do not tempt me. I have restrained myself, but I will not do that anymore. It will not be honourable for you to be thrown out of the House. It will go down badly for your constituents to hear that you have been thrown out of the House because of disorderly conduct. 

Continue, Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members of Parliament who hail from the Southern Province, there are issues that are dear to our hearts that we have been raising on the Floor of this House, which we would like to raise again, hoping against hope that some members of the Executive will listen to us. 

Sir, one of the issues that we have been raising relates to the Kafue/Mazabuka Road. We have been pleading with the Government that the road has become a death trap. Every week, we are losing lives on that road, yet nothing is being done to redress the situation. We hope that His Honour the Vice-President is listening and will ensure that something is done. The road does not just lead to the Southern Province, but also to other countries. It is an economic road. So, we hope that something will be done. 

Mr Chairperson, we have also been talking about water problems and the need to construct dams for irrigation in the province. Unfortunately, to date, nothing much has been done, yet we are all aware that the province is drought prone. Just as I said when I raised a point of order this afternoon, there is no rain in the province. We thought that the Government would provide dams to help our people to irrigate their crops. Unfortunately, that has not been done. We were promised rain, but it has not come. 

Sir, the Bottom Road has been debated on the Floor of this House, yet no tangible Vote worth mentioning has been put in the Yellow Book for it. If there is any allocation, it will only enable the contractors to work on, maybe, 5km, whereas, in other areas, substantial amounts of money have been allocated. 

Mr Chairperson, we were assured that the Monze/Niko Road would be worked on in 2012.

Ms Lubezhi: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, nothing happened in 2012 and 2013, and we doubt whether anything will be done in 2014. However, we hope that something will be done in 2014. 

Sir, we have a number of roads that we expect to be worked on, such as the Pemba/Moyo Road, Kalomo/Kabanga Road and Chikankata/Great North Road. We have been crying on the Floor of this House for those roads to be worked on. Unfortunately, nothing has been done. 

Sir, we were also assured on the Floor of this House that the rehabilitation of silos in Monze had started but, if you go to Monze, you will find that nothing has happened. There is no work taking place there. 

Mr Chairperson, we have been assured that fertiliser and seed would be distributed, but that was not done. I know that the rain is not falling, but that should not be used as an excuse for not executing that exercise. The dignity of this House has been lowered by pronouncements that are being made on the Floor of this House without being honoured. 

Mr Chairperson, because of the hunger situation in the province, our people have been thriving on exporting pork and other products to Lusaka but, because of the self-induced African Swine Fever that has broken out in Lusaka, our people have been denied the right to export pork from the Southern Province to Lusaka, yet there is no outbreak in that province. Why should the people there be stopped from bringing pork products here? What means are you putting in place to ensure that the people in the province have a livelihood? None. Could it be that, actually, it is a repeat of what happened in the past, when only pig farmers who had friends in the Government were allowed to slaughter their pigs in Lusaka and they benefited? I hope not. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we have been asking that deliberate policies be put in place to eradicate cattle diseases in the Southern Province. To date, nothing much has been done. Year in, year out, we have outbreaks of diseases. We hope that the Government will be responsible enough to do something tangible because animal husbandry is our source of livelihood. I know that my hon. Minister will use flowery language and make assurances when he comes to respond. However, I appeal to him, this time around, to speak on behalf of the Southern Province and the people he is meant to serve in that Government. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Vote for the Northern Province. 

Sir, the Budget should be used to translate development equity. In translating development equity, let me talk about the developmental projects in the Northern Province. When it comes to infrastructure development and, in particular, roads, we have had only less than 80km worked on in the last two years. 

Mr Chairperson, in the Link Zambia 8,000 Project, the major roads of the Northern Province have all been bundled in Phase II.

Mr Muntanga: Oh, oh!

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, further, in Phase II, only feasibility studies will be undertaken, and the studies will take a few years to be completed. So, in effect, the actual work on the ground will not be done.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, I listened very attentively to the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education who said, rightfully so, that every province would have a university.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, that is a very solid statement. 

Mr Nkombo: Yes.

Mr Mutati: However, for the purpose of the Northern Province, the project has been bundled in Phase II. So, ours is a Phase II province.

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, we have heard on the Floor of this House that stadia will be built as part of the infrastructure development to benefit all the provinces.

Mr Nkombo: Yes.

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, again, we have been told that the Northern Province will be the last to have a stadium.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: So, the Northern Province seems to be characterised as a Phase II province on the development priority scale.

Interruptions

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, we have been told that agriculture is key to development. Every year, the Northern Province has had high agricultural output. However, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock, in his policy statement, indicated that the construction of silos in the province will be under …

Hon. Opposition Members: Phase II.

Mr Mutati: … Phase II.

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, when will the Northern Province have, at least, some component of development? The development equation indicates that some of the infrastructure development must be in Phase I, some in Phase II and others in Phase III. So, you could not logically bundle every developmental project in the Northern Province in Phase II. 

Sir, we heard the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development, in his policy statement, articulate the efforts the Government will make in the rural electrification area. When you look in the Budget, we are absent. So, it also indicates that we are in …

Hon. Opposition Members: Phase II.

Mr Mutati: … Phase II.

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, we were grateful when Zambia co-hosted the United Nations World Tourism Organisation General Conference (UNWTO-GA) this year. We were also told that, as part of that process, tourism in Zambia would be enhanced by looking at other tourism infrastructure, and that the Northern Tourism Circuit would be invigorated. 

Mr Chairperson, the rehabilitation of Kasaba Bay, which is pivotal to the development of the Northern Tourism Circuit, has been abandoned. So, the dream for tourism …

Mr Muntanga: No phase.

Laughter 

Mr Mutati: … in the Northern Tourist Circuit is not provided for in the Yellow Book. Although we make pronouncements about the need to diversify the tourism product, and the pronouncements are positive and enjoy popular support, the reality on the ground is disjointed. We simply ask, as people of the Northern Province, to be included in the development equation so that we achieve development equity. 

Sir, it is the absence of development equity that I bring to the attention of the hon. Minister of the Northern Province. I know that the hon. Minister is very active and energetic, but what makes him unable to deliver development is the fact that he is not getting a lot of support for the Northern Province in terms of key infrastructure in the 2014 Budget.

Hon. Minister of Finance, you need to work with your colleagues for this province to be at the same pace of development as the newly-created Muchinga Province. We are grateful for the things that are happening in Muchinga Province because it is close enough for us to go to the university there. 

Laughter 

Mr Mutati: We are technically one province. However, the Northern Province also needs something that it can point to, Hon. Dr Phiri.

Dr Phiri: Phase IV.

Laughter 

Mr Mbulakulima: Order!

Mr Mutati: Sir, this phasing of development, particularly in education, must be rolled back a little. We are not a province that complains or raises aimless points. However, we demand development equity to be present in our budgeting process and in the delivery of resources, which we are all entitled to. 

Mr Chairperson, on infrastructure development, it is very regrettable that the Northern Province continues to only be present at the back of the process, in feasibility studies. When things are put under feasibility studies, they are not only in Phase II, but will actually be in an endless phase. 

Mr Chikwanda: Phase Infinite.

Laughter 

Mr Mutati: I would like the hon. Minister of Finance to take the Northern Province to the appropriate level or phase of development in the distribution of resources.  

Mr Chairperson, the other key element is the distribution of fertiliser, seed and other agricultural inputs. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Today, I got a call from Mporokoso telling me that my people have been there for one week because they had been told that the district will have seed, but the seed has not been taken there. So, that is one group of people waiting for seed. The other group is waiting for money for the maize that they sold to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA).

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mutati: What we are seeing is the same characteristic we saw under infrastructure development. Even in the payment of money they are owed, the people of the Northern Province will be in Phase II and III.

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, we need to bring equity, especially that people are working very hard to disconnect themselves from poverty. They must be assisted. 

Mr Chairperson, another key point is that, as much as we have had some clinics and schools constructed, there is a lack of equipment and manpower. Dr Phiri, it has been very sad to have superior infrastructure in primary schools but, at the same time, having children who struggle to read, can hardly count and cannot express themselves in English. These are the future leaders that we are trying to mould. We say to you that, even if you delay the construction of the university, we do not mind, but do not delay in providing us with quality teachers to mould our future generation. If you miss it at the base or formation of these children, even if you build the university later, it will be of no use to the children, who will never be able to appreciate its importance. 

You have constructed some infrastructure in Lunte. Specifically, we are beneficiaries of a technical high school, one of the biggest I have seen, with twenty or so teachers’ houses. We hope that it will be commissioned around January, 2014. We will ask the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education to come not only to commission, …

Dr Phiri: Mabumba will come.

Mr Mutati: … but to see that we have difficulties in offering quality education because it goes beyond flashy buildings. It is actually the software that you put into that process that really matters.

Mr Muntanga: Yes.

Mr Mutati: Let us not have schools with good buildings that churn out children who cannot read, count or speak English. That is not the character of the Northern Province. The Character of the province is the ability to move forward, and we ask you and your hon. Deputy Minister, Professor Willombe ...

Dr Phiri: He is from Mporokoso.

Mr Mutati: Mporokoso Secondary School is one of the biggest in the province, but it has sanitation challenges and dilapidated buildings, and is inadequately staffed. However, when you look in the Yellow Book, there is no allocation to the school. Maybe, it is in Phase II.

Mr Muntanga: Or Phase IV.

Mr Mutati: Please, take the issue of equity seriously. We are a united country and development must be spread in a manner that represents the national character. It must not be tilted to any side.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: A few words when you have spoken for twenty minutes?

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to debate the Vote on the Floor.

Sir, I sit here as the only Opposition Member of Parliament for Muchinga Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, I am worried because there is a belief that all or most of the resources are going to Muchinga Province. That is not true because, as His Honour the Vice-President indicated, the Southern Province has received a K100 million allocation while the Northern Province has received K88.6 million. Therefore, the Southern Province has got the biggest allocation in 2014.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Sir, I would like to ask this Government what it means when it says that areas that do not vote for the Ruling Party will not have development. I know that, to a large extent, the people of the Southern Province do not vote, at least not the majority of them, for the PF, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: ... yet the allocation to the Southern Province is the biggest.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Beebe!

Ms Namugala: It is more than twice the allocation for Muchinga Province, where your President comes from.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: What do you mean when say, during campaigns, that people who want their areas to be developed must vote for the Ruling Party? How many seats does the PF have in the Southern Province?

Hon. Government Members: One.

Ms Namugala: One. 

I just want to set the record straight. Those who accuse the people of Muchinga Province of taking the lion’s share of the Budget must change, starting today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: That is not true. 

Mr Sikazwe: Tell them!

Mr Muntanga: What about the university?

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, the President of the Republic of Zambia has a duty to develop every part of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: I dare say, Sir, that he also has a duty to develop his own province. As the people of Muchinga Province, we demand that he develops Muchinga, just like he should develop other provinces.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’onga: The Southern Province.

Ms Namugala: Going forward, we demand to be allocated not less than half the budgets …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Namugala: … of other provinces. 

Sir, we lamented for a long time that the Northern Province was too big and, consequently, not getting its fair share of national resources. We lamented that the Northern Province had thirteen districts, and the President listened to our cry by creating Muchinga Province. However, despite this action, we still lament that not enough money is coming to the province.

Mr Chairperson, now I want to move on to Muchinga Province and demand for intra-provincial equity. We want to see Nakonde District developed just as much as Mpika District.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, we want to see Nakonde developed the same way Chinsali is being developed.

Ms Lubezhi: Question!

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, the good people of Nakonde were very happy when they heard that their region had become part of a new province. However, the hospital in Nakonde has remained the way the MMD left it. Nothing has changed. The Kanyala/Nakonde Road has been abandoned. The Mbala/Nakonde Road, which is critical because it connects Mbala to Nakonde and Mpulungu, has been on the cards for years, and the people of Nakonde have been waiting. The township roads have been neglected. If you go to Isoka, today, and spend a night in a lodge, you will find that, just like Nakonde, there is no water in Isoka, yet the people of Isoka are bundled together as part of Muchinga Province and accused of benefitting more than other provinces.

Sir, I am talking about the need to equitably develop this country. Even as we allocate resources to the provinces, we need to ensure that, within those provinces, we do not discriminate. We need to ensure that everybody benefits from the allocation that a particular province gets.

Mr Chairperson, the Isoka/Muyombe Road, which was started in 2011, with the goodwill of Former President Rupiah Banda has stalled. The contractor is threatening to abandon the road because he has not been paid. The Mweniwisi/Mulekatembo Road has been abandoned, too.

Sir, if you go to Mafinga, you will hear people cry for the MMD, …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: … during whose rule they saw agricultural production increase. They were buying fertiliser at K50 a bag and the road infrastructure was being worked on. The hospital that was promised by President Banda in 2011 has been forgotten by our colleagues.

Hon. MMD Member: The PF.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, Mafinga is the only district that is not connected to the National Electricity Grid. Are the people of Nakonde, Isoka, Mafinga and Chama not part of this glorious new province? They should be because, once they start feeling discriminated against, they will become tribal. They will think that Muchinga Province was created just for a few tribes, and that the rest of the tribes have just been brought in to increase the number of districts.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: The Namwangas, Nyikas and Tumbukas all want to be part of the development that is taking place in the province.

Mr Chairperson, I hope that our colleagues are not taking this as politicking because it is not. We are very happy that we have a new province.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: However, we are beginning to feel discriminated against. Chama and Nakonde districts must not be discriminated against.

Mr Mwaliteta: How are they being discriminated against?

Ms Namugala: It is because in the allocation of resources, the districts that are getting the lion’s share are Mpika and Chinsali. That is a fact. The Namwangas, Nyikas and everybody else are being labelled as beneficiaries when they are, in fact, not.

Mr Chairperson, the two universities being constructed in the province are basically in one district. One would have thought that one university would go to Chama, if the other remained wherever it is. One would have thought it would even go to Nakonde because the Namwangas also want to educate their children.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, I stand here to speak for those tribes that I have mentioned without necessarily being tribal, but because they are being discriminated against, yet they form the majority of the population of Muchinga Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, our children in Mafinga and Nakonde also want to be educated. In order for them to access that education, the education has to be as close to their homes as possible. So, we want more schools and hospitals developed. If a woman has pregnancy complications in Mafinga, she has to be driven all the way to Isoka, which is more than 168km, if she is from Muyombe. Of course, many women die on the way.

Sir, if the Government wants the support of the groups of people that I have talked about, our colleagues across must ensure equitable development of all districts in Muchinga Province.

Mr Chairperson, with those remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Vote for Luapula Province. I want to, …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Mwila: Hon. Muntanga, I will debate you.

Mr Chairperson, I want to congratulate our colleague, Hon. Dr Chitalu Chilufya, on winning the Mansa Central Seat for the PF. I also want to congratulate him for being appointed hon. Deputy Minister of Health. I hope that the people of Luapula will benefit from his election and subsequent appointment.

Mr Chairperson, in 2011, we told the people of Luapula to vote for the PF as it would change many things in the province, since the MMD Government had abandoned or neglected it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I want to say that Luapula Province will never forget the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace, for giving it the Levy Mwanawasa Bridge. 

Mr Chairperson, Luapula Province gave the PF 90 per cent of its vote in 2011. As people of the province, we said that we would benefit from our vote. We told the people of Luapula that President Sata was a man of action.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mwila: We told the people of Luapula that President Sata was a man of his words. Sir, today, as we speak, the PF Government is working on the Pedicle Road, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: … which our colleagues in the MMD failed work on. Secondly, under the Link Zambia 8,000 Project, the people of Luapula have benefited. China Henan is on site tarring the Mansa/Luwingu Road.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: We also expect to have a contractor on site for the Kashikishi/Chienge Road.

Mr Musukwa: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Next year, we expect another contractor to work on the Samfya/Musaila/Kasaba Road.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: What else do people want? Our President is delivering to the people of Luapula. Not only that, there is also a contractor tarring the Kawambwa/Mushota Road. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Those are the things that we promised the people of Luapula. Therefore, Sir, we, the people of Luapula, are benefiting.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: We voted for the right party and President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: That is the more reason we will continue to benefit.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, we cried, as the people of Luapula, that we needed new districts. Just as I said with regard to President Sata being a man of action and of his words, he promised and gave us Chipili as a new district.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: He has also given us Lunga, Chembe and Mwansabombwe as new districts. We had seven districts, but we now have eleven. Therefore, he has fulfilled his promise. In addition, jobs have been created and people have been employed in all the four new districts, yet people ask which jobs we have created. We have created jobs in all the four districts. 

Mr Chairperson, there is new infrastructure that is being built in the four districts.

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, I apologise to the hon. Member who is debating very well for disrupting his debate. 

Sir, is Hon. Howard Kunda in order to keeping talking behind there, instead of listening to this progressive debate from Hon. Mwila, when he has been going round saying that the President is not doing anything? Is he in order to continue doing what he is doing? 

I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: To the extent that the hon. Member is seated where he is supposed to be, I have no ruling to make.

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_________ 

The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 6th December, 2013.