Debates - Thursday, 13th February, 2014

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Thursday 13th February, 2014

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]






Mr Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform the House that the NEPAD (New Partnership for Africa’s Development) Business Foundation (NBF), in collaboration with the Agri-Business Forum (ABF) and Alliance for Commodity and Trade in Eastern and Southern Africa (ACTESA), will hold a meeting with all hon. Members of Parliament on Monday, 17th February, 2014, in the Auditorium at Parliament Buildings from 0930 hours to 1200 hours. The aim of the meeting is to familiarise hon. Members with the organisations’ work in the agricultural sector in Zambia and the region, and to find linkages that can lead to the alignment of private sector efforts with Zambia’s national strategy.

I urge hon. Members to attend this important workshop on a voluntary basis.

I thank you.




The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to apprise the House on the security situation at Kasumbalesa Border Post in Chililabombwe.

Sir, my statement relates to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC)-bound truck drivers from the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and Common Market for East and Southern Africa (COMESA) regions, who boycotted the ferrying of goods into the DRC out of fear of violence until their security was guaranteed. The protest arose from the killing, in cold blood, of a Zimbabwean driver identified as Joseph Howard Mwachambe, aged fifty-two, by some unknown person on the Zambian side. This was the second death of a driver, as a Zambian identified as Patrick Mwila, aged twenty-eight, had been shot dead earlier on the DRC side by a police officer for reportedly refusing to pay a bribe.

Mr Speaker, when these incidents took place, Zambians reacted by harassing Congolese nationals on the Zambian side and, in the process, the Congolese mobilised themselves and retaliated, using stones and other objects to protect themselves. The situation later degenerated into a riot. However, the police moved in and calmed the situation.

Mr Speaker, what happened at Kasumbalesa is most unfortunate and regrettable, and has been condemned by both our Government and that of the DRC. Investigations into the incident are on-going and the two governments are working together to identify the perpetrators and bring them to book.

Mr Speaker, the situation at the border is expected to normalise. I went there with the security chiefs under my ministry and had first-hand information on the problem. I also took time to address truck drivers and officers from all the security wings and the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). The Governor of Katanga Province was also at the border and assured us that the DRC Government had put in place measures to assure the safety and security of drivers which, among others, would include a reduction in the number of checkpoints and armed officers on the DRC side. In order to reduce the congestion of trucks at the border, it was resolved that ZRA staff would work until 2000 hours, instead of the current 1800 hours.

Mr Speaker, our Government continues to enjoy good relations with the DRC, and the two governments are putting in place all necessary measures to permanently resolve the problem. The measures include the following:

(a) the deployment of 200 additional police officers to the border to reinforce those who are already there. Forty-five more officers will soon be deployed to an area known as Bilanga;

(b) relocation of residents of Minestone and Bilanga, whose houses are too close to the border;

(c) if worse comes to worst, the Government will table before the SADC Council of Ministers the idea of constructing a dry port on the Zambian side, where goods destined for the DRC would be offloaded. Then, the Congolese will be crossing to the Zambian side to collect their cargo;

(d) consideration of the construction of a wire fence on the border to reduce the illegal influx of people to and from the DRC using bush paths; and

(e) re-marking of the border line because it has been observed that the border has no visible makings, which makes it difficult for one to identify which area is the Zambian or DRC side. The Government will, therefore, work towards ensuring that the border line is clearly defined.

I thank you Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I have heard the good statement by the hon. Minster. However, is it illegal for Zambians to live near the border? Further, will Zambians who will be relocated and whose houses will be demolished be compensated by the Government?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, it is not illegal. However, it is not safe, especially for some of the houses, which are as close to the border as 20m. It is very difficult for our security personnel to police the area. We talked to the people living there and requested the Chililabombwe District Council to find alternative land for them. If the Government demolishes their houses, it will have the duty of compensating them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, I think that the greatest beneficiary in all these transactions is the DRC, yet its people show a propensity for intransigence. All these artificial arrangements of police officers being taken to Kasumbalesa, the fencing of the boundary and so on are just a cost to Zambia. Is there no way to assert that time has come for our country …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, your preface is too long. Could you, please, ask your question?

Mr Mbulakulima: I am now asking the question.

Hon. Minister, do you not think that time has come for Zambia and other SADC countries to show the DRC that it is actually not as mighty as it thinks? The proposed arrangements are just too costly for our country. What we need is to show that we can actually punch.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, …


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Simbyakula: … Zambia believes in the principle of good neighbourliness. There are many Zambians with relatives in the DRC and vice versa.


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister is giving an answer. Can there be order, please.

Dr Simbyakula: Zambia did not choose its neighbours. That is an act of God. Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to exist in peace with all our neighbours. I am sure that most hon. Members are aware that the big city of Lubumbashi, which is only about 95km from our border, depends on Zambia for most of its supplies. Therefore, I would inform all business houses that, in fact, there is a very big market out there and urge them to increase their output.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, these problems have been going on for a long time. So, why can we not establish a dry port immediately? To me, this is the only permanent solution.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, some time back, the issue of a dry port was discussed at a meeting of SADC hon. Ministers of Transport. In March, 2014, there will be another Council of Transport Ministers meeting at which this matter will be discussed. The possibility of establishing a dry port is one of the issues that will be considered.

I thank you, Sir. 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, are there regular meetings between the defence forces and security services of the two sides? Further, do they have plans to forestall such incidences?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, we have what is known as the Provincial Joint Operations Committee (PJOC) as well as the District Joint Operations Committee (DJOC), which regularly discuss with our colleagues on the other side. We also have a facility known as the Permanent Joint Commission (PJC), and the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs was assuring me a few minutes ago that he was in the process of contacting his Congolese counterpart to convene a PJC meeting at which issues of mutual interest between our two countries would be discussed and addressed.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, the killing of our people has become prevalent not only at that border you are mentioning, but also on Lake Mweru and Luapula River. It looks like the DRC finds it very easy to destroy life on our side of the border. I can almost predict that, before the end of this quarter, we will lose a life.

Hon. Government Member: Aah!

Dr Kaingu: I can almost predict that.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mwandi, your preface is too long. Ask your question.

Dr Kaingu: What measures, other than establishing a dry port, which is not enough because you cannot put one on Lake Mweru, are you going to effect to make the Government of the DRC realise that there is a Government on our side of the border, too?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, as I indicated earlier in my statement, we have increased our police presence at Kasumbalesa by 200. We are also in discussions with the DRC Government. I must emphasise that we are not at war with the DRC. There are no hostilities at all. We would like to treat these incidences as isolated ones by criminal elements.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I want the hon. Minister to elaborate further …

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I reluctantly raise this point of order.

Sir, is the hon. Minister being sincere when he says that the two incidences at Kasumbalesa are isolated when, just about the end of last year, we lost over thirteen people on Lake Mweru?

I need your serious ruling.

Mr Deputy Speaker: There is no serious ruling except, maybe, that the hon. Minister, as he answers the next question, might wish to respond to the point of order.

The hon. Member for Mazabuka Central may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the killing of the driver in the DRC and the events that followed are, to me, hostility at its highest level.

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: What practical steps, other than the statement that he has given us, is his Government and that of the DRC taking to circumvent what happened because just putting 200 soldiers or police officers on our side of the border, where there is no danger, is insufficient?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, the Governor of Katanga Province assured us that his Government would reduce the number of checkpoints between Kasumbalesa and the DRC, and armed personnel at the checkpoints. As you know, because of the history of that country, there are too many guns in wrong hands. So, our drivers, not just from Zambia, but all SADC and COMESA countries, expressed a lot of apprehension at the existence of so many guns at checkpoints.

Mr Speaker, as regards the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Mwandi with respect to the security situation on Lake Mweru and Luapula River, I would like to say that our marines are being better equipped for them to be able to provide adequate security for our people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya  (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, it was reported in the press that His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, had had a discussion with his DRC counterpart, His Excellency Mr Joseph Kabila. Is that one of the efforts the Government is making to restore peace to that particular border?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, yes, that is true. We will take advantage of every opportunity that we have to meet with our Congolese colleagues.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, what specific claims does the Government of Zambia put before the Congolese Government when peaceful Zambians are killed on our common water bodies and on Congolese roads? If the people killed were Americans, the situation could have been different in the DRC. What can we do as Zambians?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I am not sure if I have understood the questioner correctly. However, obviously, when a person is killed, we demand compensation and that the criminals be brought to book. We demand for justice and a guarantee of security for our people who go into other countries.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister enlighten the House on the steps that have been taken to ensure that Zambia is informed on what happened to the late Mr Chanda, who was killed last year, and the late Mr Mwila, who was killed this year?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, for the earlier death, I will need to go back to get the details. As for the death of Mr Mwila, I think that the police made an announcement about it in Chililabombwe. Other than that, I do not know what other information the hon. Member wants. When such incidents occur, firstly, the next of kin is informed and, then, the nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, do we have any record of these criminals who are butchering our people so that they can account for their acts? If we have, how many have been arrested?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, we have no control over the criminal elements found or caught in the DRC. We depend on the Congolese Government to give us those details. I do not have that information now. If the hon. Member filed a question, we could seek that information.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, all the people who have been killed were killed on the Zambian side of the border. Can the hon. Minister confirm that we are not providing enough security on our side of the border?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, Mr Mwila was not killed in Zambia, but on the Congolese side of the border. The Zimbabwean truck driver is the one who was killed on the Zambian side, and we have said that we are beefing up security at Kasumbalesa Border Post and implementing the other measures that I outlined in my statement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I got the hon. Minister very well when he said that the closing time for ZRA officers had been moved from 1800 hours to 2000 hours. Why has the ZRA not introduced a twenty-four-hour service so that the border is de-congested?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, that matter was considered, but we have some security concerns about making the border provide services on a twenty-four-hour basis.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I get the impression that this problem has been caused by the Congolese and, in response, our Government is deploying more forces, that is, 200 extra police officers, to the border. However, the deployment of security officers costs a lot, in terms of fuel, rations and family relocations. Who is meeting this cost that has been caused by the Congolese?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, the security of Zambians is a concern of any reasonable Government. Therefore, whenever Zambians feel insecure, it is the duty of the Government to provide that security no matter what it costs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just indicated that there is no visible marking of the boundary between us and the DRC. When will the Governments re-demarcate the border in that area?

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, we have already communicated this information to our colleagues at the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, and they will get in touch with their colleagues on the other side to start demarcating the line.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwewa (Mwansabombwe): Mr Speaker, 200 officers that have been deployed to Kasumbalesa. However, what security and protection is given to our innocent drivers when they get into the DRC? What penalty can this Government slap on the Congolese Government?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, as Minister of Home Affairs, I am responsible for the security of all people within Zambia. What happens after they exit our borders is the responsibility of the governments of the countries to which they go. However, I have indicated that we have engaged the Congolese Government, through diplomatic channels, to resolve this issue. I have also stressed that we are not at war with the DRC. There are no hostilities between us. Therefore, we are not going to invade the DRC. We want to resolve this matter as brothers and sisters. These are our neighbours, and they will be our neighbours until Jesus Christ comes back to Earth.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!



263. Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a) how many drivers were currently employed at the Mongu College of Education

(i) the Government; and

(ii) the College Board;

(b) when the drivers at (a) were employed; and

(c) if the Government had not employed any driver at the College, why that was the case.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, ...


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Can I have order on both my right and left?

Hon. Deputy Minister, you may continue.


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I just called for order a few minutes ago, but I have a repeat of the disorder on my right. Please, can we observe order.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, there is currently no Government driver employed at the Mongu College of Education (MCE) because the one who had been employed in March, 2005, was transferred to Mwandi District. However, there is one employed by the board.

Mr Speaker, the reason the Government has not employed a driver for the MCE is that the college’s staff establishment provides for only one position of driver, which has been filled.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise on very serious Constitutional issue arising out of Articles 51 and 52 of the Constitution of Zambia.

Sir, the nation is aware that the Government of the Republic of Zambia authorised mining activities in the Lower Zambezi National Park.

Hon. Government Members: Hmm!

Mr Mwiimbu: Thereafter, the hon. Minister of Tourism and Art issued a statement contradicting the hon. Minister of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, stating that the authorisation was illegal and irregular.


Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to request you to take note of the various pronouncements and publications that have been made in the country pertaining to this matter, the Ministerial Code of Conduct and the principle of collective responsibility. I am also aware that there are proceedings in the High Court on this issue, but hon. Ministers have continued to make statements on it. Is the Government, through His Honour the Vice-President, in order to remain mute and not provide guidance on this matter, which is of national interest? Is it in order to allow anarchy to prevail in the management of the affairs of this country?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

In light of what has been said, I think that it is only proper that there be clarification on this matter. I accordingly request His Honour the Vice-President to make that clarification in the course of next week.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member for Kalabo Central continue, please.

Mr Mucheleka: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Aah! On whom?


Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, following the response …

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. 

Sir, there is uncertainty surrounding the Constitution-making process in this country. On one hand, we are told by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution that it has finished its work and handed over a copy of the Draft Constitution to the Ministry of Justice, on the other hand, we have been told by the Ministry of Justice that it has not received the Draft Constitution from the Technical Committee. Further, just yesterday, the President directed his hon. Ministers and other Constitutional office holders not to comment on the Constitution-making process, yet we are aware that colossal sums of taxpayers’ money, in excess of K120 million, has been used on this important exercise. However, we are now being told that it was an exercise in futility, yet …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

What is your point of order?

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Justice in order not to come to this House to clarify the Government’s position on the Constitution-making process?

I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Can the hon. Minister of Justice come up with a ministerial statement in the course of next week.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member for Kalabo Central continue, please.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I seek further clarification on …


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on my left!

Mr Miyutu: … the matter involving the transfer of the driver who was at the MCE to Mwandi and another driver who was taken to the college from Lukalanya. What were the reasons behind the transfers?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I do not think it is our job to request the college administration to explain reasons for making the decisions that they make. We will leave that to the Executive.


264. Mr Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development:
(a) when the sale of emeralds within Zambia commenced;

(b) what benefits had been derived from the exercise; and

(c) whether the policy of selling emeralds within the country would be revised.
The Deputy Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development (Mr Musukwa): Mr Speaker, ...


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on my right!

Mr Musukwa: Mr Speaker, I thank for your protection.

Sir, emeralds have always been sold both within and outside the country. From time to time, buyers come to Zambia to buy emeralds from producers or traders. Producers and traders from Zambia also travel to different countries to sale emeralds. However, since early last year, the Government has been encouraging Kagem Mining Limited, the major emerald producer in which the Government has a stake, to auction all its emeralds within the country. In short, the policy of auctioning emeralds locally was introduced in April, 2013.

Sir, it is too early for the Government to clearly quantify the benefits of auctioning emeralds within Zambia. That said, I would like to inform the House that the auctioning of emeralds within the country by Kagem Limited is laying the foundation for the establishment of Zambia as a gemstone trading centre. Once this is achieved, there will be benefits that will accrue to the Republic of Zambia in terms of:

(a) job creation;

(b) easy monitoring of gemstone production and marketing, which will facilitate effective collection of tax revenue from the sub-sector;

(c) creation of a ready market for small-scale gemstone miners; and

(d) the creation of linkages with other sectors, such as tourism, will be enhanced.

Mr Speaker, the Government intends to establish Zambia as a gemstone trading centre in the region. It will, therefore, maintain this policy because it is progressive for our country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, is it a Government policy to …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I apologise to the hon. Member for Chipili for disturbing his debate. However, I have been compelled by circumstances to rise on a point of order on what I deem a Constitutional breach by the police. I am gratified that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has just shed light on the events that led to the loss of life of a Zambian in the DRC.

Sir, Part 3 of the Constitution of Zambia provides for the protection of the fundamental rights and freedoms of individuals. Article 15 of Part 3 says:

“A person shall not be subjected to torture or to any inhuman or degrading punishment or other like treatment.”

Sir, last week, there was an incident, whose facts are in the public domain, in which the Zambia Police Force in Mazabuka …

Mr Mwamba entered the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Opposition Members: GBM!

Mr Nkombo: … brutalised a Ms Emily Manyoni, who was suspected of the petty crime of stealing a radio, to a point where she partially lost consciousness and had to be put on a drip.

Sir, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs in order to make a ministerial statement on something that happened outside these borders, but remain mute about the circumstances that led to the torture of Ms Emily Manyoni at Ten Miles Post in Mazabuka by the Patriotic Front Police?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, can you come up with a statement by Friday, next week. There are three statements to be made next week.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, is it a Government policy to compel all the companies dealing in emeralds to sell them within Zambia? If it is, why is it that only Kagem can sell emeralds within Zambia?

Mr Musukwa: Mr Speaker, the Government is determined to ensure that all players in the gemstone industry sell their emeralds within Zambia. We started with Kagem because the Government holds a stake in the mine. So, we wanted to open the floodgates from there.

I thank you, Sir.


265. Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West) asked the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication whether the Government had any plans to construct bridges across the following rivers in Solwezi West Parliamentary Constituency:

(a) Mumbezhi on Kalengelenge Road in Senior Chief Mukumbi’s area; and

(b) Mafwe in Chief Matebo’s area.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr M. H. Malama): Mr Speaker, yes, the Government, through the Road Development Agency (RDA), has plans to construct a bridge across the Mumbezhi River on Kalengelenge Road in Senior Chief Mukumbi’s area. The Mumbezhi Bridge on the R191/U3 Mukumbi to Kalengelenge Road has been proposed for repairs under the Acrow Project, which will see a number of Bailey bridges constructed in areas that are most affected by wash-aways.

Sir, the RDA will carry out a detailed assessment of the Mafwe Crossing Point to ascertain the scope of the works by the end of the second quarter of 2014 with a view to carrying out the works under Force Account thereafter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, does the Government have plans to construct bridges wherever pontoons are being used in the country?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the building of bridges is a process. The Government will continue constructing bridges in various places, but we cannot say we will put bridges in all areas where pontoons are being used.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central): Mr Speaker, at what stage of the planning process is the construction of the bridge across the Mumbezhi River?

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, we will commence works in the second quarter of this year.

I thank you, Sir.


266. Mr Sichula (Nakonde) asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a) why the Government had closed the only school for the disabled at Chilolwa in Nakonde District;

(b) where the pupils had been taken to following the closure of the school;

(c) what the cost of running the school per annum was prior to its closure; and

(d) when the school would be reopened.


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

We are not listening. We have developed a tendency of talking when somebody is asking or answering a question. Can we, please, give the person on the Floor a chance to be heard.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr P. Ngoma): Mr Speaker, the unit for the physically-challenged at Chilolwa Primary School in Nakonde District has not been closed. Children with special education needs have been integrated with their able-bodied peers. They still receive specialised services from specialised teachers, who were deployed to the school in January, 2013.

Sir, pupils with special needs have not been taken anywhere, but just integrated in the mainstream classes. The school receives grants of K11,214 per annum to meet operational costs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichula: Mr Speaker, the school that the hon. Minister is referring to is the same one where teachers have been accommodated. Where do the pupils learn from?

Mr P. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, we have talked about integration. The physically-challenged pupils have not been removed from the school. They are learning together with the other pupils.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the Zambia Institute for Special Education (ZAMISE) in Kabwata Constituency trains teachers of pupils with special education needs over a period of two to three years. Since the hon. Minister says that the children with special learning needs at the school are integrated in mainstream classrooms, could he also indicate whether the teachers who handle the mainstream classes at that school are all graduates of ZAMISE?

The Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, the current policy is that, as much as possible, children with mild to moderate disabilities or special needs be integrated into the mainstream classes. The school we are discussing is an example of schools in which that is being done. However, the children who are integrated into mainstream classes continue to receive special attention from specialised teachers, who are the graduates of ZAMISE that Hon. Lubinda referred to, which is located in his constituency, as well as those from the University of Zambia (UNZA). There should be no apprehension at all.

I thank you, Sir.


268. Mr Mwanza asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a) how many teachers’ houses were earmarked for construction countrywide from January, 2008, to December, 2011; and

(b) how many houses had since been completed.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the teachers’ houses that were earmarked for construction countrywide from January, 2008, to December, 2011, and those completed were as follows:

Year Houses Earmarked Constructed

2008  228 222

2009 280 280

2010 369   Not funded

2011 Nil   Nil

Total  877 502

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that many teachers countrywide are not accommodated, and that the number of houses built is inadequate? Is there any plan to construct sufficient housing stocks for teachers?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, yes, we are aware of the shortfall in housing stocks. In terms of plans, just like my hon. Minister has said, all the schools that will be built will be built with staff houses. We have demonstrated our ability to do that in the funding for 2012 and 2013.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, is it Government policy to allow teachers at respective schools to build their own houses?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, of course, teachers have the freedom to construct their own houses. However, it should not be within the school premises.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, the Government has constructed teachers’ houses in Chavuma but, for one year, the houses have not been let out to the teachers, who continue to live in huts in the villages. When will the Government allow the teachers to live in those houses?

Mr Mabumba: Sir, unfortunately, Hon. Konga has not clarified whether it is at the new Chavuma Secondary School or …

Mr Konga indicated assent.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, he is agreeing that it is Chavuma Secondary School. Since the school has not been handed over to us, it is premature to allocate its houses. Obviously, the teachers are expected to move into the houses once the school has been handed over to us. Hon. Konga, through you, Sir, we will cross-check the status of the school.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member for Chavuma, if you have a question, please, ask now.


Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, why have both Chavuma Secondary School and the teachers’ houses not been used more than a year after they were built?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the school is among those that await Phase II, which involves external works. What has been completed is Phase I. Immediately money comes through from the Ministry of Finance, we will avail it to the contractor to complete the works. We are sorry for the delay in opening the school and making the teachers’ houses available for occupation. However, we will only complete the project this year, to be more specific, in the second quarter, because of budgetary constraints. Thereafter, we will decide on how we can officially open it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, teachers lack accommodation everywhere in Zambia. During its tenure, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government looked for a co-operating partner to build houses for the army, which the PF Government is now celebrating about.


Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, has the hon. Minister got any plan to approach our co-operating partners for a similar project, which is to build teachers’ houses so that teachers can have adequate accommodation?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, it is difficult to comment on this question because the two institutions are not exactly the same. The people in army and the other security units live in barracks or camps while teachers are scattered all over the country. So, we will need to engage him further, as a consultant, on how we can proceed. It is a very good idea.

I thank you, Sir.



269. Mr Miyutu asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) when the Government would rehabilitate the police camp in Kalabo Central Parliamentary Constituency, which is in a deplorable state;

(b) whether the Government had any plans to construct a new police camp in the constituency; and

(c) if so, when the construction would commerce.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, yes, indeed, the Government is aware of the extent of the dilapidation of Kalabo Police Camp in Kalabo Central Parliamentary Constituency and other camps in other parts of the country. I am, however, happy to inform the hon. Member and the House that the Government will embark on the rehabilitation and construction of housing units for the police service throughout the country within the course of this year. The procurement process for the exercise has already commenced.

Sir, as already stated, the Government will construct houses for the Zambia Police Force countrywide, including Kalabo Police Station in Kalabo Central Constituency.

Mr Speaker, the construction of the new police housing units will commence once the tender process has been concluded.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the answer, but I will thank him fully upon seeing …

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Miyutu: You ask yourself.


Mr Miyutu: … the contractor going to Kalabo. We have always heard promises …

Mr Deputy Speaker: What is your follow-up question?

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, the question is: In which month of this year will the contractors go to Kalabo to rehabilitate those houses?

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, the only assurance I can give the hon. Member is that the procurement process has already commenced. When it has been concluded, we will inform him about the specific date on which the contractor will be in his constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister clarify the nature of the rehabilitation and other works that have been planned for Kalabo Police Station.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, like I stated, the dilapidation of our police camps is in various stages. Most of the camps are quite old. So, the rehabilitation works will vary depending on the extent of dilapidation. The other works will be the construction of new housing units.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, have the police camps that the Government intends to construct this year been budgeted for?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, that is why this process has been delayed. It is a massive project and we have a limited resource envelope. However, we have engaged the Ministry of Finance and there are on-going negotiations for the project to be financed through a loan that will be managed by the Ministry of Finance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, when one tours all the police stations in this country, one finds that the situation is very disheartening.

Mr Mwale: Yes.

Mr Mtolo: Can the hon. Minister assure us that something will be done to clean all the police stations across the country, unlike the state they are in currently. Is he proud of the situation?

Mr Nkombo interjected.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, my colleague has stated that we are looking for funds outside the Budget precisely for that purpose.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, as the Government embarks on the construction of the new police infrastructure, what does it intend to do with the Jimbe Camp, which has very good infrastructure, but has been abandoned?

Mr Simbyakula: I did not get the name of the police camp.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Jimbe Camp.

Hon. Government Member: Is it not in Angola?

Hon. Opposition Member: It is not in Angola. It is in your country.


Mr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, perhaps, the hon. Member could file a question of an urgent nature so that we can respond to it appropriately.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Antonio: Mr Speaker, how many houses does the ministry intend to construct in Kalabo? I ask this question in the hope that some houses will also be constructed in Kaoma.

Mr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, we intend to construct between 9,000 and 12,000 housing units countrywide.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that funds will be needed to clean up police stations. The police stations look like scrap yards, and I believe that the scrap has owners, who should collect it. Is it that costly to clean the stations? In any case, how much money will be needed for the cleaning exercise?

Mr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I do not know if I got the hon. Member right because I do not know what kind of cleaning he is talking about. What we intend to do is rehabilitate and construct housing units at police stations. Some of the units were left in a dilapidated state by the previous Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbyakula: So, we are trying to build up on what was left by the previous Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Kaoma Central Constituency, Hon. Antonio, wanted to know how many houses will be built in Kalabo District.

Mr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, those are details that we can only avail to the hon. Member for Kaoma Central Constituency at a later stage. The important thing is that the Government is embarking on an exercise to construct housing units for our men and women in uniform. I am sure that you have seen the houses that have been constructed for the men and women in the Zambia Army, Zambia Air Force (ZAF) and Zambia National Service (ZNS).


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order, on my right and left!

Mr Simbyakula: We intend to build houses for the Zambia Police Force, too.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}


270. Mr Mwanza asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock when Kyafukuma Agricultural Training Institute in Solwezi would be rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Monde): Mr Speaker, Kyafukuma Agricultural Training Institute received K97,000 for rehabilitation works in 2012. The works included:

(a) improvement of the water reticulation system by sinking of a borehole;

(b) rehabilitation of the main poultry pen; and

(c) rehabilitation of the workshop, storage facilities and garage.

In addition, the ministry, in its 2014 budget, has provided for support to, and further rehabilitation of, the institute. The works that are planned for 2014 include:

(a) rehabilitation of classroom and hostel blocks;

(b) rehabilitation of staff houses;

(c) rehabilitation of the piggery unit; and

(d) completion of the rehabilitation of the poultry pen.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, has the hon. Minister confirmed that the projects he has talked about are complete and that the facilities are operational?

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, the 2012 projects were completed. This year, we are moving forward and looking at new rehabilitation projects. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, does the Government have plans to upgrade some of the agricultural institutes to colleges or universities? Does it have plans, for instance, to upgrade the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC) to university status or the Kyafukuma Agricultural Institute to college status?

The Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Sichinga): Mr Speaker, that point is important in that a number of the farmers training centres (FTCs) in the districts have suffered neglect. In fact, we intend to include their rehabilitation in some of our major projects.


Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

I am really taken aback by the behaviour of the hon. Deputy Ministers at the back. It appears that you are having difficulties keeping quiet. Please, can you be exemplary. You are disturbing the person debating. If you want to consult, you are free to go out to the lobby.

Hon. Minister, you may continue.

Mr Sichinga: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker, I was making reference to Hon. Mwanza’s question and the follow-up question by the hon. Member for Chadiza. The issue at hand is that many FTCs in all the districts of the country are in a deplorable state. I also said that some of our current projects include the rehabilitation of the institutions. However, the conversion of the institutions from being FTCs, which are intended to provide extension services to farmers, is really not the subject. We will not convert them to higher-level colleges as they are there for a purpose. What we are currently doing is rehabilitating them. 

In reference to Kyafukuma, we have provided K300,000 in the 2014 Budget for additional rehabilitation works. This is in the Yellow Book under Programme 1002: Infrastructure Development, and the ‘‘Rehabilitation of Farm Institutes’’ activity. Further, there is also Programme 1013, Advisory Services, Activity 009, Support to Farm Institute Operations, to which K100,000 has been allocated for the programme to be implemented. This will be done for all the institutions as soon as the money has been made available. The hon. Member’s point is noted.

Sir, for the information of the House, we already have ten training colleges under the ministry at the moment. They, too, will be rehabilitated to improve the curriculum and physical facilities. This is not something we can do overnight, but over a couple of years.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, Namushakende, probably the oldest FTC, has been left to degenerate into a deplorable state. Hon. Minister, what are your plans for the institute?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I am just from explaining that matter. 

Dr Kaingu: No, it was not enough.


Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, Question 270 is specifically on Kyafukuma. Therefore, if the hon. Member for Mwandi wants information specific to another institute, he should raise a question, which we are quite prepared to answer. I gave a general overview of all the colleges, including Namushakende, which is, indeed, of great importance to the Government, and should not have been left dilapidated by your Government. It should have been rehabilitated in the twenty years during which you were in office.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the answer by the hon. Minister concerning the FTCs. However, what strategic measures has the Government put in place to ensure that the good condition of the institutions is maintained on a sustainable basis after rehabilitation?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, we are rehabilitating the institutes so that we raise their standard. Thereafter, they will be able to fulfil the role for which they were created. Ensuring that they are maintained in good condition is a responsibility of various institutions, ministries and officers. We hope that they will not be neglected again. That is why we are undertaking this activity on a progressive basis. I further hope that hon. Members of Parliament will keep a watchful eye on the institutions. If things are not being done correctly, they should bring the information to our attention.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.


271. Mr Miyutu asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a) when construction of classrooms and staff houses at the following schools in Kalabo Central Parliamentary Constituency would commence:

(i) Mitwi;

(ii) Sikundu;

(iii) Litoma;

(iv) Lushi; and

(v) Lupo;

(b) when Salao Primary School in Kalabo Central Parliamentary Constituency would be rehabilitated; and

(c) why it had taken long to rehabilitate the school.

Mr N. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, Mitwi, Sikundu, Litoma, Lushi and Lupo schools in Kalabo Central Parliamentary Constituency have been earmarked for upgrading from pole-and-mud to permanent structures. However, due to limited resources, the Government will consider building classrooms and staff houses in future infrastructure development plans. The rehabilitation of Salao Primary School in Kabompo Central Parliamentary Constituency …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Kalabo.


Mr N. Ngoma: … in Kalabo Central Parliamentary Constituency will be undertaken when resources have been made available.

Sir, through the community mode and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), a 1 x 3 classroom is being built.

Mr Speaker, the rehabilitation of Salao Primary School has been delayed due to lack of resources. However, the Government has disbursed K160,000 in 2014 for the construction of classrooms. Further, K320,000 has been disbursed for the construction of  two staff houses, two double ventilated improved pit (VIP) toilets and two single VIPs at Yeta Primary School.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Speaker, I am a bit taken aback following the hon. Deputy Minister' response. In his reply, he mentioned the earmarking of the project, which gave me hope but, now, he is saying the rehabilitation will be done when resources will be made available. Why did the Government decide to earmark the project when there are no resources?

Mr N. Ngoma: Mr Speaker, to me, earmarking is part of planning. In anything that one wants to do, they must plan. Therefore, the Government has plans to give a facelift to all the schools built of mud and grass by giving them permanent structures.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, why does the hon. Deputy Minister think it prudent to go against the Government’s pronouncement that it would not use the community mode but, instead, use contractor mode. Why is he now talking about Salao Primary School being built using the community mode, in which people will have to start carrying stones over long distances?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Let me help the hon. Minister on this one. We had a long debate yesterday, and my understanding was that, in some situations, the Government would request communities to assist in projects while, in other areas, it would do everything. Therefore, it can be any of the two modes. I think that was clear.


172. Mr Mwanza asked the Minister of Tourism and Art:

(a) how much publicity was done about the source of the Zambezi River as a tourist attraction before and after the United Nations World Tourism Organisation General Assembly (UNWTO-GA) that was held in August, 2013; and

(b) how many traditional leaders from Zambia were invited to attend the UNWTO General Assembly.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism and Art (Mr Evans): Mr Speaker, the co-hosting of the UNWTO-GA was a national event. By implication, all advertisements made before, during and after the event were aimed at marketing Zambia as a tourist destination of choice. Therefore, it was not the intention of the Government to advertise each and every tourist site in the country because the responsibility to do so remained in the hands of respective local authorities and the private sector. It is against this background that business fora were organised to allow the private sector to advertise specific tourism products and sites.

Mr Speaker, Zambia was advertised widely on global news channels, such as Cable News Network (CNN) and the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC), which raised the profile of the country as an emerging tourism destination. However, it is important to emphasise that the publicity was aimed at advertising Zambia, not specific sites. By implication, even the Zambezi Source was covered because the advertisement included major tourism features like the Zambezi River and the Victoria Falls.

Mr Speaker, the successful co-hosting of the UNWTO-GA enhanced Zambia’s profile in the international community, which has to be sustained through targeted marketing, especially  in the emerging outbound tourism markets in the Far East, such as China and Thailand.

Mr Speaker, ten traditional chiefs were invited to Livingstone to attend the conference on the assumption that they would hold workshops in their respective regions to sensitise their fellow traditional leaders when the conference ended. Although all Paramount Chiefs were invited, only one, Paramount Chief Mpezeni, attended due to various reasons.

 I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I know that the UNWTO-GA was an important occasion, but I totally disagree with the hon. Minister’s answer because the North-Western Province, as the source of the Zambezi River, was never featured. Therefore, it is not fair for the ministry to say that most of the sites were advertised by the private sector. Why did traditional leaders from the North-Western Province not attend? The hon. Minister has mentioned Paramount Chief Mpezeni as the only one who attended. I am also aware that …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

What is your question?

Mr Mwanza: Sir, my question is that I am aware that Chief Ndungu …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

That is not a question. What is your question?

Mr Mwanza: Sir, when will the Ministry of Tourism and Art begin to specifically advertise the source of the Zambezi River?

Mr Evans: Mr Speaker, I indicated earlier that, during the UNWTO-GA, we were advertising Zambia, as a nation, not specific places. As such, the Zambezi Source was also part of the advertisements.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, the source of the Zambezi is in my constituency, Ikeleng’i.


Mr Muchima: When will the ministry pay particular attention to this very important source of the river that we cherish so much?

Mr Evans: Mr Speaker, as the House may be aware, the source of the Zambezi is in Ikeleng’i, and it is the responsibility of every Zambian to advertise it.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister come out clearly to state …

Mr Muchima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Deputy Minister. However, is he in order to fail to answer my question, which was very specific? With your permission, Sir, I said that the source of the Zambezi, which is very important, is in Ikeleng’i and I asked when the ministry would pay particular attention to that site? He has not answered my question. Is he in order not to answer my question and, instead, beat around the bush? 

 Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, you may wish to touch on …

Mr Evans: Mr Speaker, thank you. We have taken note …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, I have not finished. I want you to address the point of order as you respond to the question by the hon. Member for Kasempa.

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, before the point of order was raised, I was asking the hon. Minister to come out clearly and state whether the Government had any plans to develop the source of the Zambezi River and assure us that we would find the plans if we went to the hon. Minister’s office tomorrow.

Mr Evans: Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to develop all tourist attractions in the country. We all know that the source of the Zambezi River is in Ikeleng’i. Since it is difficult to get to Ikeleng’i, due to the bad state of the roads, the Government has started working on the roads. Once the roads leading to all such places have been worked on, we will take development there.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I listened attentively to the hon. Minister as he was responding to the question on the specific plans for the source of the Zambezi River. Could he give us the essential elements or ingredients of that plan.


Mr Deputy Speaker: I think that we are really taking the hon. Minister to task. Hon. Minister, maybe, the best you can tell them is that you will outline what is in the plan next time because you are having difficulties.


Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Minister, you may respond all the same.

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr Mukanga) (on behalf of the Minister of Tourism and Art (Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, we appreciate that question. However, it is a new one. So, we will only be able to give you details after we have got the right information from the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!





The Minister of Justice (Mr Kabimba, SC.): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Sir, the Legal Practitioners (Amendment) Bill seeks to amend the Legal Practitioners Act, Chapter 30 of the Laws of Zambia so as to permit the advertisement of legal services in the country.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the current legislation prohibits legal practitioners from advertising their services to clients as one of the mechanisms of ensuring the integrity of the profession. This prohibition is rooted in historical reasons that have lost their rationale, over time, especially in the context of globalisation and practices in other jurisdictions.

Mr Speaker, England, from which Zambia borrowed this tradition, now permits the advertisement of legal services, as do various other jurisdictions in the world. The main reason there is a global shift towards permitting the advertisement of legal services is the need to avail members of the public adequate information and freedom of choice when it comes to the selection of a legal practitioner to represent their interest.

Sir, the advances in technology and the desire by various investors, foreign organisations and other stakeholders to have appropriate information about the availability of legal services have necessitated the removal of the long-standing rule against the advertisement of legal services.

Mr Speaker, Sir, although the advertisement of legal services is to be permitted, it will be done in a regulated manner in order to ensure that the integrity of the profession is maintained and enhanced, and that the objective of providing quality access to justice by citizens and other stakeholders is realised accordingly.

Mr Speaker, the drafting of this Bill is in keeping with the Government’s general policy objectives of implementing the desired legal and judicial reforms so as to guarantee affordable access to justice by our citizens and all interested parties. The Bill is non-controversial and progressive. I, therefore, urge hon. Members of this august House to support it.

Sir, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: We never tire of advising. You must always address the Chair as, ‘Mr Speaker’ or ‘Sir,’ not Mr Speaker, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, from the outset, let me state that the Legal Practitioners Act, Chapter 30 of the Laws of Zambia, prohibits the advertisement of legal services. As we speak, Zambia is one of the few countries that still have such a prohibition as most have relaxed it, partly, due to globalisation.

Sir, your Committee notes the object of the Legal Practitioners Amendment Bill, which is to amend the Legal Practitioners Act, Chapter 30 of the Laws of Zambia, so as to permit the advertisement of legal services. Specifically, Clause 2 of the Bill seeks to amend Section 52 of the Legal Practitioners Act, Chapter 30 of the Laws of Zambia, which sets out the kinds of conduct that constitute professional misconduct in order to exclude advertisement of legal services from constituting such misconduct.

Mr Speaker, in considering this Bill, your Committee interacted with various key stakeholders, who were unanimous in their support of it. The stakeholders indicated that, in the era of globalisation, in which law firms were in competition not only with local, but also international business, advertising through websites, legal journals and directories has become necessary in order for such firms to become more competitive. However, the stakeholders recognised that the legal profession was a noble one and legal practitioners must, at all times, be seen to act with etiquette and decorum, hence the need for regulation of advertisement by legal practitioners once it has been allowed. In that regard, there was a call on the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) to ensure adherence to the newly-adopted legal practitioners rules in so far as they related to advertisement of legal services. Furthermore, some stakeholders suggested that additional provisions in the rules should take into account the fact that, once legal practitioners have been allowed to advertise:

(a) they should be free to respond to public or public tenders for legal professional business;

(b) they should be allowed to produce, publish or distribute brochures in connection with their business;

(c) they should do so in their own names, not pseudonyms, and without prior permission from LAZ or its committees; and

(d) they should be allowed to appear in the media to discuss any matter legally allowable.

Sir, it is expected that the enforcement of these provisions will ensure that the integrity and decorum of the profession is maintained, and will prevent the abuse of the new provisions.

Mr Speaker, there is no doubt that the legal profession is of great importance to the economic, social and political wellbeing of our society. It is a noble profession, whose dignity and decorum must be cherished and preserved at all times. However, it is also noted that legal services are a commodity like any other. As such, and in light of the recent global developments, consumers need to have as much information as possible about the services they seek to procure and the qualifications and experience of the service providers. Needless to say, advertising will, therefore, result in important benefits to the consumers, as they will be able to make more informed decisions about which of the available legal service providers will best meet their needs based on their expertise.

Sir, the above notwithstanding, your Committee is aware that the unregulated advertisement of legal services might result in some undesirable practices, such as advertisements that are meant merely to undermine competitors rather than appealing to clients and informing them of the type of services offered and the expertise of the practitioners. Therefore, in regulating such advertising, clear regulations should be developed. Further, a mechanism to monitor adherence to the regulations should also be put in place, preferably, through LAZ. In this regard, your Committee is pleased to note that legal practitioners’ rules have been revised in light of these proposed amendments. Your Committee strongly recommends that the submissions made by stakeholders regarding a further revision of the rules on advertising legal services be taken into account without undue delay.

Mr Speaker, the proposed amendment, if passed, will align Zambia with other jurisdictions. Therefore, it is laudable not only because it is in keeping with international best practices, but also because, locally, it will facilitate the making of informed choices by members of the public. It must, therefore, be supported.

Sir, subject to the recommendations in your Committee’s report, your Committee recommends that the Legal Practitioners (Amendment) Bill No. 20 of 2013 be supported by the House.

Your Committee also wishes to record its gratitude to all the stakeholders who appeared before it and tendered both oral and written submissions. It also wishes to thank you, Mr Speaker, for affording it the opportunity to study the Bill. Your Committee also appreciates the services rendered to it by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly during its deliberations. Its members also thank you, Sir, for appointing them to your Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, in supporting your Committee’s report, I wish to say that this amendment Bill is very good because of the value of having an informed client with regard to legal services. Having the right information will enable consumers to make informed choices. It, therefore, means that those who will advertise should be careful that the information …

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.


Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, before business was adjourned, I had just started debating in support of the amendment to the Legal Practitioners Act.

Sir, the legal and medical professions bear very close similarities. Historically, during the time we were under British rule, and according to the past laws we made for ourselves, it was perceived that, once medical practitioners advertised their services, they would mislead would-be consumers. I am being informed that the situation is the same for accountants.

Mr Speaker, it is clear from your Committee’s report that, with the technology that we now have, and as this technology becomes available to more of our people, many of our clients or potential clients will have a lot of information, most of which will be fairly accurate, but some of it, I am afraid, not that accurate and, thus, misleading. Therefore, to advertise is a sure way of evening out the plethora of information that is available to a number of potential clients of the medical or legal practitioners.

Mr Speaker, in supporting this amendment, I see an urgent need to also amend the Health Professionals Act so that, as medical professionals, we can also advertise in a responsible and informative manner. This will enable our clients to have the best services from the best people available. I hope, too, that, in advertising services, the issue of legal fees can be looked at because there are no guidelines on what legal fees are charged by practitioners. Specifically, State Counsels charge very high fees for their services. Maybe, in the same vein, medical practitioners can be consultants. Obviously, there has been a significant investment of resopurces in these people for them to acquire their skills. However, first and foremost, there must be an effort to make legal services affordable. Therefore, in my view, the revision of advertisements will enable people to choose which legal practitioner to consult vis-a-vis the fees they charge. The fees are currently too high, and I apologise to my colleagues who are legal practitioners, but this is what we think. As medical practitioners, we are more concerned with the health of the nation. Similarly, legal representation should be made affordable to the commoner.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I support your Committee’s report in as so far as it will facilitate the amendment of the Health Professions Act, which regulates the conduct of the medical and health professionals, generally.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Bwlaya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, this Bill is long overdue. Therefore, for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency, I am glad that it has been brought and is now at the second reading stage.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to adopt Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo’s words on the role that this Bill will play in facilitating similar changes in other professions, such as mine. Talking about other professions, I know that accountants like me also have difficulties advertising their professional services. One would have loved to see a holistic approach to these changes so that all the professions that are similarly affected would have been helped. However, we still have time to initiate similar regulatory reforms for other professions so that practitioners can advertise as well.

Mr Speaker, the advertisement of legal services will expose our legal practitioners to opportunities in other countries and international organisations. They will be able to showcase their abilities and qualifications so that they may even be able to represent multi-national co-operations and international organisations.

Mr Speaker, we live in a global village and, because globalisation is exposing people to new challenges and opportunities, it will not do for this country to maintain laws that will not help in the development of our country both socially and economically.

Mr Speaker, therefore, it is hoped that the legal profession will also be made subject to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission’s rules and regulations just like companies that offer telecommunication services, such as Airtel, Mobile Telecommunication Network (MTN) and many others. This will protect the consumers. Most importantly, it is hoped that the legal services will, as earlier mentioned, be made affordable and offered qualitatively. My concern is that, as we legalise the advertisement of legal services, the Legal Aid Board in this country must also be looked at so that it can provide a viable and effective alternative path to accessing legal services for the poor, especially those in rural areas like Mangango, Chifunabuli and Lupososhi.

Mr Speaker, the Legal Aid Board must be visible and accessible. Therefore, there is a need for the quick decentralisation of this Government department so that we can see our poor men and women get legal representation. They may not be able not only be read the brochures that will be produced by law firms, but also to travel and meet the lawyers in person. However, they should, at least, be able to run to a Government department and be helped by Government lawyers.

Mr Speaker, law is a noble profession and, because of that, it is expected that, as we amend this Bill, we ensure that the advertisements will be factual and avoid sensationalisation in an attempt to attract customers. I expect that we will, from now on, have not only a vibrant legal profession, but also a profession that will be able to meet the expectations of Zambians, especially where the fees charged are concerned. A number of colleagues have lost their property in the form of legal fees. We hope that the amendment will address some of these issues so that the cap placed on the issues to do with legal fees will be lifted and regulatory interventions effected as and when needed.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill. From the outset, I wish to state that I am in support of the Bill. It is, indeed, a relief that, finally, the law profession is catching up with what happens elsewhere in the market, at least, partially. I will explain why I say ‘partially’. My prayer is that other professions that are guided by similar regulations will also be brought up so that we look at the issues pertinent to their operations.

Sir, I support the Bill. However, my main contribution, this afternoon, will be to state that this Bill does not go far enough in responding to the modern practices on the market place. If I could have it my way, I would have it brought back so that we look at other aspects that will place the legal services much more in tune with what other actors in the market place are doing.

Mr Speaker, a few colleagues who have already debated have mentioned that there is a need to provide not only qualitative, but also affordable legal services. My contention, this afternoon, is that legal services are not affordable in this country. Often, when the bill for legal services comes, I have just been reminded by a colleague here, it will say, ‘‘Our bill is more or less ...’’, then, a huge figure follows. Very unaffordable! So many people are unable to approach lawyers because they cannot afford to pay them. The question is: Why are legal fees so expensive? My contention is that lawyers hide behind the law to overcharge.

Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: What we know, Mr Speaker, is that the law prescribes the minimum, but not the maximum amount that the lawyer must charge. This means, in my understanding, that the lawyer has no choice but to charge, at least, that amount. He can also charge more, but not less, than the amount prescribed by the law. It is us, in this House, by passing this law in the past, who made the legal fees to be unaffordable.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, this is a strange phenomenon …

Mr Mwale: Zoona!

Dr Musokotwane: … because, in the market place, to which the lawyers also belong, if you are selling chickens and you see your colleague doing the same, and you want to sell more, what do you do? You reduce the price. It is the same thing you do whether you are selling mangoes or beef. Unfortunately, lawyers have applied the law to create a different phenomenon.

Sir, I appreciate lawyers. They are very good. Those of us who have been persecuted by this Government, through all types of …


Dr Musokotwane: … frugal charges, really appreciate the services of lawyers and are ready to pay for them. Unfortunately, it is like this Government is colluding with lawyers to deplete our pockets …


Dr Musokotwane: … by creating a law that compels lawyers to charge high amounts of money …

Mr Mwiimbu laughed.

Dr Musokotwane: … so that we are crippled both politically and in our pockets. This is a very bad law and, therefore, in the interest of justice, we must accept that lawyers and accountants, like Hon. Bob Sichinga, charge too much.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I think that doctors charge reasonable amounts of money.

Mr Mwiimbu: No!


Dr Musokotwane: When you go to a doctor, he will look at you and say, “This is a poor man. I have to choose between life and death” and reduce the price. However, lawyers will say, “Even if a person cannot afford the money, I know he has a house that I can grab.”


Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, this issue of applying the law to distort the laws of economics, which enable people to compete on the market needs to change so that lawyers and accountants charge reasonable fees because of competition. Architects also say, “This man is building a house worth K2 billion.  Therefore, my fee is 2 per cent of K2 billion.” Who says that the effort that goes into drawing a house is worth 2 per cent of the cost of a building?

Dr Musokotwane: Is that justifiable?

Hon. Member: No!

Dr Musokotwane: It is not justifiable. Similarly, engineers also look at someone like Hon. Bob Sichinga and say, “This man has no hair on his head. He looks rich” and charge him on that basis.

Mr Sichinga laughed.


Dr Musokotwane: I think that this is totally unjustified. So, my plea is that we need to go beyond what we have done so that the legal profession becomes relevant to all the poor people in this country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Motion on the Floor. From the outset, I would like to say that I support the Motion. However, please, accept my sentiments on it.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: The truth of the matter is that, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Mwanza: … personally, I value the work of medical doctors more because doctors are keen to save life. They are there to save life. Lawyers, first of all, claim that they are more educated than anybody else.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!


Mr Mwanza: They are the ‘learned’ ones. Who told them that they are more learned than others?


Hon. Member: Hammer!


Mr Mwanza: I am talking to the lawyers. I expressed my hope earlier that Mr Speaker would allow me to share my point of view in support of this Motion.


Mr Mwanza: Lawyers must know …

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Mwanza: … that the people of Zambia are not happy with what they do.


Mr Mwanza: They must know that three quarters of hon. Members of Parliament have cases in court caused by the PF Government.


Mr Mwanza: The Government, which is responsible for these suits in the first place, has ensured that every Jim and Jack appeals every initial judgement so that we continue to spend money on legal representation.

Mr Bwalya: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon.  Opposition Members: Aah, iwe!

Mr Mwale: You just debated.

Mr Simfukwe: Nangu ninchito ulefwaya nifi?
Mr Mwanza: … and because of that …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.

Sir, I sympathise with those who have cases in the courts of law, but the PF Government is not the one that has taken …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?


Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, the Constitution states very clearly that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, raise the point of order. The preamble is rather too long.


Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament in order to insinuate, without mentioning the particular hon. PF Member who has taken another hon. Member to court?


The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member for Solwezi West, you may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, my advice to lawyers is that they must be humble and approachable. These lawyers you see drive tinted cars and operate in posh offices. The doctor’s cubicle is very small, yet they save lives.

Mr Speaker, when I say this, it is not in reference to you, as a lawyer. However, I know, for a certainty, that …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to rise on this very important point of order.

Sir, I know that the senior hon. Member might not know that he has been swimming in dangerous waters in his debate. Is he in order to insinuate that the learned lawyers are not leading simple lives? I am surrounded by lawyers, including the Chair …

Hon. Government Member: And the Clerk!


Mr Kampyongo: … and hon. Members on the Front Bench.


Mr Kampyongo: Is he in order to generalise and insinuate that these people lead more extravagant lives compared with other professionals?

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that you are out of order because you have drawn the Chair into your point of order.

Continue, Hon. Mwanza.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I have no evidence of what I now want to say, but I understand some lawyers at the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE), that very important school, have connived with some students to make it look like it is impossible to graduate from there.

Mr Speaker, sometimes, only two of the students who enter ZIALE graduate from there. That should not be the case. In the medical profession, you never hear of this happening because it is a noble profession. As for the lawyers, I think that I have a case against them.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, they need to show …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to allege that there are lawyers who are conniving with students at ZIALE to fail their examinations when he has no proof of that? Further, this matter was debated at length on the Floor of this House and recommendations were made on how to reform ZIALE.

Is he in order to start misleading the House?

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that the hon. Member is definitely out of order, as the allegation he has made is omnibus. It lacks the necessary evidence.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for that favour.

Sir, I would like to draw the attention of the lawyers to the pro bono publico concept. I am not a lawyer, Mr Speaker, but I know the phrase. It means rendering services ‘for the good of the public,’ not for profit. It means that legal practitioners must offer some free legal services to clients. How many (turning to hon. Opposition Members) of the clients here have ever got free legal advice from their lawyers?


Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, they have not.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, this is because of the greed of the lawyers. The lawyers are greedy and want to get rich quickly …


Mr Mukata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, one of the basic rules in this House is relevance and factuality. Is the hon. Member in order to debate in the manner he is doing, without any reference, whatsoever, to any legal position and using terminologies like pro bono, whose meaning he has no clue about? Is he in order to debate in such an open-ended fashion without facts?

The Deputy Chairperson: My ruling is that I was equally worried by the manner of debate the hon. Member has adopted, but I was hopeful that he would quickly fall back in line and debate the Motion appropriately.

Hon. Member, address your attention to the Motion.

Hon. Members:  Hammer!

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Perhaps, to make it clearer, the hon. Minister of Justice, the learned hon. Minister of Justice, …

Hon. Members: Ah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister of Justice will, at an appropriate time, wind up debate, and I am sure that he will address some of the issues that have been raised.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, finally, I would like to say that …


Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, people are confusing me here.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, the lawyers ought to know that Zambians are not happy with the services they provide. If they do not attend to some of the issues I have talked about – I talked about the fact that there is pro bono publico work, and I know, for a certainty that, under this concept, lawyers must, at some stage, offer free legal services to their clients. I have checked the term in the dictionary and its interpretation is as I have indicated. The argument my brother (pointing at Hon. Mukata), who is a lawyer, demonstrates exactly what I am talking about.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, they have no respect for the professions of other people except theirs.


Mr Mwanza: That is wrong.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You may, please, continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, finally, I wish to say that, as the lawyers begin to advertise their services, let them be like all the other professions. I belong to the Human Resource Management profession, but we do not say that we are the best of all professions. We do not want to see that happen. The lawyers must not dictate to the client the minimum amount he is supposed to pay. It should be up to the client to explain to the lawyer what he can afford.


Mr Mwanza: Currently, lawyers do not want to accept that because they want to get rich quickly.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, this must stop.

Sir, with these few remarks, I wish to say that I support the Motion, and I like my leader here, the Chairperson of your Committee, although he is a lawyer (pointing at Hon. Mwiimbu).


Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for affording me this very rare opportunity to debate the Bill, which will mark a turn-around of a profession that, for a long time, has been wrapped up in what is called “the mystique of the consensus of the learned”


Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, in the mystique of the consensus of the learned, throughout history, money has not been the overriding factor in the exercise of the profession of law. Money has not been the sine qua non …


Prof. Lungwangwa: … of the legal profession. However, clearly, times have changed. Even the Oxford Dictionary of English, which we have in the Chamber, defines a profession as a “paid occupation”. It goes further to say that the legal profession has become increasingly business-conscious.

Sir, clearly, what we have to do now, in the dismantling of the mystique of the learned, is re-align the legal profession to the market forces. From now onwards, our legal professionals will be controlled by the market forces instead of the dictates of their profession. They must be careful to balance the dictates of the market forces with the demands of professionalism so that they continue to gain their respectability as that revered profession to which people look up for guidance. This means that advertising legal services will inevitably raise legal fees because advertising incurs a cost for the firm which, eventually, the consumer will have to bear. As legal practitioners, especially LAZ, look at this transition, there must be very serious attention paid to ensuring that the advertisement of legal services does not become an unbearable cost to the consumers like it has increasingly become. There must be safety nets to protect the consumer, especially in a poverty-stricken country like ours, in which the majority of our people cannot afford the fees demanded by our learned colleagues. There must be sensitivity to the whole question of how justice can be accessed even by the poor in our society. If we do not do that, the ordinary person will look at this profession in the same as any other business on the market, and accessing legal services will be looked at like buying tooth paste or any other commodity. That should not be the case. Find a way of putting measures in place that will protect the ordinary person so that we all have equitable access to justice.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The honourable and learned Minister of Justice, wind up debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for the Committee’s work and all the views that have been expressed by all the hon. Members of this House on this Bill. I would like to thank all the speakers and state that it is clear from some of the debates that the legal profession has, indeed, been misrepresented. If what I have heard from the Floor of this House is representative of the lawyers or the law firms in Liuwa Constituency, Nalikwanda Constituency and Solwezi West Constituency, not Shibuyunji, …


Mr Kabimba, SC.: … I think that the image of the legal profession has certainly been misrepresented.

Mr Speaker, I thank the Committee for its diligent scrutiny of the Bill and the House for its support.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee, on Friday, 14th February, 2014.




The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1708 hours until 0900 on Friday, 14th February, 2014.