Debates - Friday, 7th March, 2014

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 7th March, 2014

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I rise to acquaint the House with the business it will consider next week.

Mr Speaker, all things being equal, next week, we shall meet for one day only on Tuesday, 11th March, 2014. The Business of the House will commence with questions to hon. Ministers. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. On this day, I intend to move the Motion to suspend the relevant Standing Orders to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and, thereafter, adjourn sine die and sine Vice-President’s Question Time.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

FORMER LUSAKA MAYOR

Mr Speaker: Hon.  Members, I have to acquaint the House with the presence, in the Speaker’s Gallery, of Mr Richard Samson, who was the Mayor of the City of Lusaka from 1962 to 1964. Mr Samson is visiting the country after forty-two years. He has written several books on Lusaka in particular and Zambia in general. We welcome his presence here.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

__________

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, this is now time for His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. I must state that during this Session, in order to expedite business, please, there will be no points of order.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, the Evans Hamaundu-led Tribunal has concluded its work and the nation is waiting to know exactly what its outcome is. The tribunal was constituted to probe Hon. Wynter Kabimba, SC. May His Honour the Vice-President inform the nation, through this House, about the findings of this tribunal.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, as far as I am aware, he was completely cleared of the allegations on which the tribunal was founded.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chungu (Luanshya): Mr Speaker, there have been many accidents on the Great North Road between Ndola and Lusaka. When is this caring and responsible Government …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Chungu: … going to construct a dual carriageway to avoid the loss of lives on that road?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, a feasibility study for the construction of a dual carriageway is in the process of being carried out, but I would like to use this opportunity to mention that the other day, I saw that the Insurers Association of Zambia (IAZ) has decided to step into the accident reduction business by trying to enforce certain conditions in the drivers’ training such as rest periods, travel hours and condition of vehicles. They want insurers to stop insuring buses which are not safe in one way or the other. I think that this is a practical move which this Government supports. Why insure a vehicle if you know that you are going to have to pay out for it? Why lose life unnecessarily? I welcome the IAZ’s entry into this arena.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central): Mr Speaker, lately, the exchange rate of the kwacha against the major currencies has not been satisfactory. What immediate measures is the Government putting in place to stabilise the kwacha and make it competitive since the exchange rate plays a major role in ensuring that our economic development agenda is on course?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, one of the difficulties we have in this country is that we trade with South Africa, but we talk about our currency in terms of US dollars. This can lead to a lot of confusion about price levels and strengths of currencies. The US dollar is not a universal constant like the speed of light or a kilometre. It is something with its own life and history and it strengthens and weakens in its own right. The US dollar has been strengthening in recent months as the money has been withdrawn from emerging economies and is looking to go back to the safety of where it came from in the first place. By comparison, in the last twenty-four months or so, the kwacha has weakened against the US dollar by 12 per cent, but the South African rand has weakened against the dollar by 36 per cent and the value of the cedi, which is the Ghanaian currency, has almost halved. In other words, the number of cedi you have to pay to buy a US dollar has doubled.

So, if you look at the exchange rates between the kwacha and rand, you will find the kwacha is stronger than the rand like I pointed out last week or the week before. Actually, prices in the supermarkets should be falling. However, we do not see them falling. Instead, we see them taking advantage of Zambia’s limitless propensity to pay over the odds for almost anything.

In fact, Sir, I met with a South African expert the other day who said that if the National Party in South Africa had realised how much money they were going to make from black Africa when they became independent, they would have abandoned the apartheid system twenty years before and started selling to Zambia and Zimbabwe. We should be thinking much more in terms of our trading partners.

Mr Speaker, I think there are genuine issues with regard to accessing dollar financing. Some businessmen whom I do not always believe, but consult nonetheless, are saying it is becoming difficult to hedge against movements of the kwacha in light of the strictures of the Statutory Instrument (SI) 33 that we are hearing about. I can say, on behalf of the hon. Minister of Finance, that both he and the bank are listening, but we cannot say anything at this point. We are taking note of how the private sector is thinking.

Sir, I think, on balance, I would not panic too much. Measures are being taken, but the trouble is that the measures that are taken against a movement in a currency tend to have the effect of putting up interest rates and we are reluctant to put up interest rates too high. We would rather the kwacha found its own levels relative to other currencies, and we could proceed from there.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, Zambia’s motto of “One Zambia, One Nation” and the famous Kenneth Kaunda (KK) song of “Tiyende pamodzi ndimutima umo”, …

Mr Shakafuswa: Do you even know it?

Mr Mutale: … coupled with Zambia’s being a Christian nation, is a unifying factor for the Zambian people.

Mr Speaker, will the Government engage churches and the civil society in the fight against this cancer called tribalism in our country which has been exhibited with impunity …

Mr Mwaliteta: Yes!

Mr Mutale: … in the recent past.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I think there are two positions one could take on the issues of tribalism in Zambia. The first one is that in the urban electorate, which is about half the total electorate of Zambia, a pattern of voting, which is almost entirely free of any tribal correlations, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

The Vice-President: Lusaka City, which was originally Soli territory, may have had emigration from the Eastern Province, the North …

Mr Shakafuswa interjected

The Vice-President: … and South, but it does not vote along tribal lines. The minute you move outside into certain rural areas, you tend to pick up something you could call a tribal or ethnic pattern. This is not the only country in the world where this is true. Scotland is about to conduct a referendum to leave Great Britain based largely upon tribal sentiments by the Scottish people who are my own people genetically.

Hon. Opposition Members: Go!

The Vice-President: In America, there is a lot of regional voting. You get the rural areas voting for the Right Wing and the urban areas, East and West Coasts voting for the Right Wing, and so on and so forth. So, it is very difficult to make hard and fast rules on this matter.

Mr Speaker, one of the reasons for having a democracy is that sentiments such as tribal sentiments can be expressed as long as it does not lead to violence, witch-hunting and, ultimately, a genocide which we emphatically do not want to see in this country. That is my personal view. I think you have to live with the realities as you find them around you.

Sir, we are fully aware that, probably, half of us, here in this Chamber, are married to people who are not of the same tribe as ourselves. That is the pattern and it is very progressive. I think we can be very proud of what we have managed with quite a potentially dangerous mix.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, last year, the Government dismissed countrywide some nurses who went on strike. What is the Government’s position on those who want to be getting money without performing their duties, …

Laughter

Mr Mwila: … that is, those who want to get allowances and salaries without performing their duties? Can you state the Government’s position?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is not up to the Government to give a position on matters concerning the management of this House. I leave that to you, Sir.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, could His Honour the Vice-President comment on the 2013/2014 crop season and the anticipated yield.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is a pity that the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock is not sitting next to me. It is also a pity that my friend, Hon. Muntanga, who loves the Vice-President’s Questions Time so much must be seething with frustration …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … wherever he is sitting in some kind of blatant boycott of the Vice-Presidents Question Time. Honestly, what do you want to boycott the Vice-Presidents Question Time for?

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

You place me in a very difficult position because I had ruled earlier that we would have no points of order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: However, I will accept this one because of its unusual predictable nature.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President in order …

Hon. UPND Member: We mukuwa.

Mr Muntanga: … to provoke me into asking him questions such as the one on the Constitution …

Mr Nkombo: Such as the Constitution.

Mr Muntanga: …. which he cannot answer? Is he in order to try to provoke me to raise the question to which he has no answer?

Ms Kapata: You are a farmer.

Mr Muntanga: I am quietly seated here. Is he in order to provoke me?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: My sense of things is that His Honour the Vice-President seems to be missing questions from Hon. Request Muntanga, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … but I am sure that, at an appropriate juncture, Hon. Muntanga will put questions to His Honour the Vice-President on the question of the Constitution.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I did actually plant that question on Hon. Muntanga’s behalf because I know he wants to know what is happening to the maize crop.

Sir, the rain started late and not much crop got through the very early weeks of the season, especially in the southern half of the country, but the rain has persisted. Oddly enough, it came late and stopped late in Southern and East Africa. However, in Zambia, it is raining even in the first week of March.

It is difficult to give my sense of the crop, as this is a big country. We have adequate maize for our consumption and export. I hope there will be no impediments in its exportation so that we can make plenty of US dollars from our neighbors which we can convert into kwacha at even better exchange rates for exporters than we started with. If you manage to sell some maize to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), let us say at US$300 a tonne, and convert that at K6 per US dollar, you will feel very good about it.

Mr Speaker, I think we are lucky that the inter-tropical convergence zone kicked in by the end of December. At one stage, we held an emergency meeting thinking we were going to face a situation similar to that of 1992, but we hung on for a couple of weeks and the situation reversed itself. I am quite happy with …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

The Vice-President: Sir, it is interesting that there have been advanced contracts entered into between commercial farmers and commercial grain traders. Moneywise, I think the whole shape of this sector is a bit more commercial than it has been for some years.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, I just want to reinforce the question that the hon. Member for Kapiri-Mposhi asked earlier on. The Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock should have learnt some lessons from the late delivery of inputs to the farmers. What plans and measures have we put in place to ensure that in the next farming season, farmers receive inputs on time?

Hon. Backbenchers: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, this is a perennial problem. It is a problem which is found throughout the world when you have what is essentially a socialistic venture where you try to get things to people regardless of how efficient the infrastructure is; how able they are to use it efficiently and regardless of any economic considerations. It is always difficult to make things work. The Grain Marketing Board (GMB) was turned into the National Agricultural Marketing Board (NAMBOARD) which was closed down by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in 1989 through the Zambia Co-operative Federation (ZCF) and through all the different institutions that had been set up to distribute fertiliser and seed. Up to today, it is basically something which has to go over to the private sector in the end. I am sure that is what my colleague, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Livestock is working on. The State is not good at distributing commodities of any sort on an economics-free basis. There are predecessors who managed to solve this problem and I think we are taking steps to solve it too.

Mr Muntanga drank some water.

The Vice-President: Poor Hon. Request Muntanga is drinking water in his frustration so I see.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, today, both the Zambia Daily Mail and Times of Zambia are carrying a headline on a very important subject, the Constitution. May I find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the Government’s position on this subject is.

Hon. Backbenchers: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not know if the hon. Questioner wants me to read out what the papers state. I was at State House yesterday and it is pure common sense that we have been trying to bring common sense into this debate for a long time now. Let me remind hon. Members that in the present Constitution, if the Bill of Rights or if Part III of the Constitution is at all modified, for example, even by one word, this automatically brings a referendum into play. A referendum costs, I would guess, double what a General Election costs because you will have to consider the register of voters. Normally, we are satisfied when we have a General Election if we manage to register 60 per cent of the eligible voters. In other words, people who are above the age of seventeen. A Referendum has to be passed by two-thirds of eligible people in Zambia, that is, adults and will, therefore, be a much more difficult undertaking.

Mr Speaker, in a General Election, you will have another problem of getting only 60 to 70 per cent turnout of those who have got voters’ cards. That is in an election which is held close to the voter-registration date. If it goes to three years or so, like it has in Kaputa, for example, you get only a 30 per cent turnout. Now, neither of these scenarios would enable you to pass a new Constitution through a Referendum. The mention by His Excellency the President of the other needs such as the money Zambia has was very appropriate and we will have to work this out. I hope that by that time, together we can work out how possible it is to fulfil the requirements of a Referendum to get the desired results in this country with the current system, which is very difficult. We cannot even begin to discuss anything until we see the report.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice stood where I am right now, waiting for questions about details of when, where and how we will establish the road map, but he got even less questions than I am getting. At least, I can imagine a question from Hon. Request Muntanga, but I did not hear a single question when Hon. Wynter Kabimba, SC. was here to clarify the issue of the Constitution. I am afraid, I completely subscribe to what His Excellency the President said yesterday. I assure you that we are committed to the Constitution Review. That is all that can be said at this stage. When we get the report and the annexes to the report, including an alleged Constitution, we will be able to discuss this matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matafwali (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, what measures has the Government put in place to ensure that the Constitution-making process is not hijacked by individuals or organisations with vested interest?

Hon. Backbenchers: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, you cannot talk about hijacking the Constitution-making process if it is unsuccessful. There is a system in place. As the Government, we actually have the majority of seats in this House at the moment. We are going to steer the process in the right direction. If Chief Jumbe wants to stand up and say he is against the Constitution, his time will come and we will listen to his views but, I think, we have to play this by the rules so that all is understood.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga (Bwacha): Mr Speaker, two weeks ago, I raised some concerns with regard to the crisis at Konkola Copper Mines (KCM).

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker:

Mr Speaker: Order!

I have made a ruling on points of order with the special exception of Hon. Muntanga because he was mentioned in a debate.

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Speaker, what is the Government doing to alleviate the crises that the workers at the KCM have faced for a long time now?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am very pleased to report to the House that comprehensive discussions have been held with the KCM, Vedanta Resources, the main owners, the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), the minority shareholders, the financial systems and all the stakeholders. I would give you many details on this issue, but I am mindful that there is a question on the Order Paper that relates precisely to this issue.

Mr Kampyongo: Yes, it is Hon. Mwila’s question.

The Vice- President: Which one?

Mr Kampyongo: Hon. Mwila’s question.

The Vice-President: Yes, Hon. Mwila’s question deals with the employees’ side. Perhaps, I should just point out that Vedanta Resources Company has underwritten another loan of about K450 million to turn the KCM around. So, they are making a long -term commitment which is what we wanted and have also guaranteed us the 18,000 jobs that the mine has provided. However, the hon. Minister of Finance will be much more explicit and coherent on that subject.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what action the Government is going to take on the civil servants who are always cited in the Auditor-General’s Reports.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there is a procedure that I have not sharpened up my understanding of. However, the Auditor-General’s Office is mandated to look into this matter and other institutions like the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) are assisting it. I would expect the system to work and would also expect us to make sure that there is enough political will and funds are provided in order to solve this problem.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chimbamilonga.

Mr Musukwa: Epo ali yama.

Laughter

Mr Chansa (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Sikazwe: Lion King.

Mr Chansa: … the Opposition has been complaining about the unequal sharing of developmental projects. May His Honour the Vice-President inform the nation on the distribution of ambulances, province by province.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Ema MP, aba.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it so happens, caught by chance, that I have a report on the distribution of ambulances throughout Zambia, province by province. The distribution is as follows: 
 
 Province No. of Ambulances

 Central   13

 Copperbelt  14

 Eastern  14

 Luapula  14

 Northern  11; that is where you say it is all going, but it is not

 North-Western  13; the province we allegedly starve

 Southern  18; including the Kalomo District Health Management Team
 Western  14

 Muchinga   9; the one which is supposed to have everything

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mphande (Mkushi North): Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is committed to addressing the challenges of unemployment in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mphande: Could His Honour the Vice-President tell this House and the nation how many jobs the PF Government has created …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mphande: … from the on-going developmental projects that are being undertaken countrywide.

Hon. Government Members: Ema MPs, aba.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the working total that we have at the moment is about 600,000, but I hope that even outside of parliamentary sittings, we can circulate an accurate breakdown. Now that we are two years and five months into our five year-term, I think it would be very fitting if we could produce an accurate analysis and tabulation of the jobs created. I can see the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security who can work together with my ministry and the Ministry of Finance and we will be able to access those figures.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kankoyo.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Maiden Speech.

Mr Chabala (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President …

Hon. Opposition Members: Maiden Speech.

Mr Chabala: … how prepared his office is in terms of responding to disasters relating to collapsed houses, schools and clinics.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Ebaume, aba.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let the question be answered.

The Vice-President: Sir, not only are we prepared for schools that have lost their roofs …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

Let us hear the Vice-President.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

The Vice-President: I think it is a good idea to stop the clock when the noise is too loud so that, maybe, we can discuss. Basically, not only are we prepared to deal with schools that have had their roofs blown off and houses that have collapsed, but we have also asked the Disaster Management Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to employ an engineer to …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

The Vice-President: … clarify that the quality of these schools’ roofs and other structures is of ‘unblowable’ standard. The problem is that there is too much sub-standard work when constructing dams, schools, houses and so on and so forth, resulting in too much damage. We want to change that and that is our way forward.

Please, only one question, Hon. Gary …

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

__________{mospagebreak}

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

KABWE INDUSTRIAL FABRICS COMPANY

422. Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Finance:

(a) what measures the Government had taken to assist former employees of the Kabwe Industrial Fabric Limited (KIFCO) get their terminal benefits; and

(b) whether there were plans to bring KIFCO under the operations of the newly-created Industrial Development Corporation (IDC) in order to save the company infrastructure from going to waste.

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, KIFCO was privatised through the sale of 100 per cent shares to Namibstar Private Limited and Knightsbridge Industrial Investment on 19th April, 1996, for the purchase consideration comprising cash plus liabilities. Due to deepening financial losses and operational shortfalls, a pre-privatisation rationalisation of labour was conducted in 1996 which resulted in the reduction of jobs from 390 to 290 employees. The 100 employees who were declared redundant were subsequently paid their terminal benefits from the sale proceeds.

Sir, the sale of 100 per cent shares in the company consequently obliged the new shareholder to assume responsibility for all assets and liabilities, including employee terminal benefits. The new shareholders took over the responsibility to pay the remaining 290 employees’ benefits as and when they became due.

Our understanding, Mr Speaker, is that the current shutdown of the company is a temporary measure to facilitate for the rehabilitation of the plant and that no employment contracts were terminated to give rise to demand for terminal benefits.

Mr Speaker, one of the key objectives of the IDC is to supervise and monitor all State-owned enterprises in an effective and efficient manner to enable the Government to realise its value for money and help reduce the financial burden of sustaining State-owned enterprises.

As stated above, KIFCO was privatised through a 100 per cent sale of shares in 1996. Now that it is privately owned, it cannot be brought under the operations of the IDC.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Sir, through you, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order.

I sincerely apologise for budging in at the time you made a ruling that you would not allow points of order during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. However, Sir, it was in my judgment that points of order must be raised contemporaneously.

Mr Speaker, my point of order is procedural. His Honour the Vice-President has been a Member of this House for more than fifteen years. We have been told, in this House, not to talk about people who are unable to defend themselves.

In his discourse of an unsolicited question from the Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central, Hon. Muntanga, His Honour the Vice-President mentioned His Royal Highness, Chief Jumbe, who is my chief.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Nichani?

Mr Miyanda: He is our chief.

Mr Nkombo: He mentioned …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, do not be distracted.

Mr Nkombo: He mentioned my Royal Highness, Chief Jumbe. My understanding is that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government does not have respect for His Royal Highnesses in this country …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: … as exhibited by the antagonistic behaviour against our Royal Highness Mwinelubemba.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I would not want to derail your line of thought. However, you know better than I do that it would be very helpful if you went straight to the point. I know that it is tempting to politic around these issues and digress by bringing in elements which, quite frankly, are not relevant to the point of order you want to raise. I have already a clear sense of where your point of order going. It is unnecessary to start making detours towards where you are going. Please, get to the point.

You may continue.

Mr Nkombo: With gratitude, Sir, I will get to the point.
 
Sir, many times, my chief, Chief Jumbe, has been chastised by the PF Government to an extent where the Head of State has said that he knows what goes on in his bedroom.

Is His Honour the Vice-President, therefore, in order to mention Chief Jumbe of Malambo, when he is not here to defend himself? Is His Honour the Vice-President, who we know has no chief or clan, in order? 

Mr Speaker: Mr ruling is very short.

This is a very settled practice. I have said before, and I will say it again, that we do not mention people who are not here for the very simple reason that the precincts and proceedings of this House enjoy some immunity. Therefore, because we enjoy this immunity, in fairness to those who are not here, we refrain from discussing or mentioning them as they do not have the opportunity to respond or even vindicate themselves before the courts of law. This is the logic of this practice like I have said before. So, indeed, that was out of order.

Both my left and right have mentioned, on several occasions, individuals that are not here. Therefore, I must seize this opportunity to urge hon. Members to avoid debating people who are not here. We can make our points in many ways without necessarily mentioning names of individuals that are not here because they are helpless. They cannot even go to court because of the immunity which we enjoy. The purpose of this immunity is to promote free, unbridled, robust and caustic debate on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That is the essence.

However, this freedom should not be abused or used to assail or besmirch others. I hope I will not have to repeat this.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Who was on the Floor? We have lost track.

Hon. Member for Kaputa, you may continue.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, I wanted to find out from the hon. Minister …

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Another point of order is raised.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

He is also entitled to raise a point of order.

Laughter

Mr Mushanga: Chiwamila iwe, galu, kuluma mbuzi? Mulekeni afunse.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I always sit quietly. When I stand to speak, it means that there is something boiling in my heart.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we need to protect the integrity of this House against calculated attacks by members of the public who do not follow exactly what happens in the House, but somehow, get parts of it in the news broadcast. 

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 5th March, 2014, you made an announcement following the pre-mature adjournment of the House on Tuesday, 4th March, 2014. I wish to quote the second paragraph of the announcement from the verbatim report. You stated as follows:

“My office did not receive prior notification of the absence of the Members concerned except for the Hon. Member for Mwinilunga Parliamentary Constituency, Mr S. Katuka, MP. As a matter of fact, I am aware that some of the Members registered their presence and later decided to stay away from the House at the time their questions came for consideration. This shows that the Members intentionally absconded from the Chamber in order to disrupt the Business of the House.

“Hon. Members, this conduct amounts to Contempt of the Assembly contrary to Section 19(e) of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia which states:

‘19 Any person shall be guilty of an offence who (e) commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a Committee of the Assembly or to any person presiding at such proceedings.’

“As this House is aware, the emoluments payable to hon. Members, in particular, the Sitting Allowance, is for Members’ attendance of the sitting of the House, among others. The National Assembly Members’ Handbook, 2006, in chapter 11, on Remuneration of Members, on page 54 under the heading, “Sitting Allowance” states:

“A sitting allowance is paid to all hon. Members under the following circumstances:

(a) when they attend sittings of the House;

(b) when they attend meetings of the Committees; and

(c) when on Parliamentary Business within Zambia as directed by the Speaker.

“In this regard, a Member who merely registers his or her name on the attendance list and immediately thereafter absconds from the Business of the House, including from the asking of questions on the Order Paper, is presumed to have been absent from the sitting of the House on that day and is, therefore, not entitled to receive the sitting allowance.”

Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members I mentioned earlier on that sooner than later, I will be begin singling out hon. Members to leave the Chamber.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I am being compelled to do this because of your reaction. Let us have some civility. When Hon. Nkombo was raising a point of order, he was given an opportunity to canvass it. Therefore, any other hon. Member should also be given an opportunity to canvass points of order as long as they are relevant. You must be patient. If anything, you cannot debate while seated because the rules do not permit it. I talked about our rules, and yet you want to be in the forefront of violating these rules. What legitimate claims would we have for being honourable?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, when you made this ruling, you made reference to what is written. I do not think that the provisions under Cap XII of the Handbook in particular, are your making, but things that you are supposed to enforce as the Presiding Officer.

Mr Speaker, in yesterday’s Daily Nation, there was an article entitled, “Speaker Abrogating Constitutional Authority”. 

Sir, in this article, a civil rights activist by the name of Mr Tayali has been quoted as saying that you abrogated the Constitution.

Sir, in today’s Daily Nation, the Headline is, “Speaker Must Resign – Msoni.”

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Namulambe: Sir, this is also in relation to the announcement you made on the payment of sitting allowances when you merely quoted the provisions of the law.

Mr Speaker, on 27th February, 1996, on page 1295 of the official verbatim report of the Parliamentary Debates of the 5th Session of the 7th National Assembly, the Speaker then made an announcement following the point of order by the then Vice-President, which quoted some publication by Mr Fred Mmembe, Ms Lucy Banda Sichone and the late Mr Bright Mwape. They were cited for contempt of the proceedings of the House.

Mr Speaker, in light of the foregoing, and since this House has got privileges, are the Daily Nation, Mr Tayali and Mr Msoni in order to make calculated attacks on the proceedings of this House and the Office of the Speaker, in particular, as if you are the one who made the provisions in the Members’ Handbook? This statement is meant to mislead the general public that you are doing things outside what is provided for in the Members’ Handbook. Are they in order, therefore, to continue publishing falsehoods to mislead the public without being cited for contempt by this House? I really need your serious ruling because the people of Zambia are being misled. This House has ways in which information on Motions, Questions and Private Member’s Motions is transmitted to the public. Are these people in order to mislead the general public?

I need your serious ruling, Sir, and I will lay the papers on the Table.  
.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe laid the papers on the Table.

Mr Speaker: As you may predict, I will reserve my ruling on this matter because I need to study this material, which has been presented to me and, of course, I also need to take recourse to the law so that, at the end of the day, I can give a measured response to this point of order. That is all I can say at this juncture.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I keep on losing track of the debates because of the disruptions.

 Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Another point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to raise this point of order pertaining to the procedures of this House.

Mr Speaker, I am aware of the procedures at the Westminster and in the Commonwealth pertaining to the proceedings of the House and the precedents that are being set on the Floor of this House.

Sir, I am also aware that Hon. Lubinda was punished by this House for a statement that was made outside the House and that had nothing to do with the deliberations of this House. I am also aware that there was a ruling on a statement that was made by His Honour the Vice-President, casting aspersions on the Members of your House where he called us monkeys and that we were ‘monkeying’ on the Floor of this House.

Mr Speaker, arising from what has transpired and the various rulings by the various Presiding Officers pertaining to statements that are made by outsiders, vis-à-vis the happenings in the House, I would like to seek your guidance as to whether the rules of this House are being changed now and those who made statements outside the House should be punished while others should not.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, His Honour the Vice-President abused hon. Members of this House by making racial and derogatory remarks contrary to the provisions of Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I need your informed ruling and guidance as to how we are going to proceed on issues that affect members of the public who make statements and affront the dignity of this House.

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: If you followed my ruling yesterday, you would be aware that I was very explicit. Some of you were present while others were absent. I mentioned that there were certain issues that were raised in a point of order by the hon. Member for Choma Central. In the nature of my approach to these issues, I do not make rulings touching on factual allegations. I need to read the script of the proceedings and the context in which the allegations were made.

I went on to state that in this controversy that has gripped the nation since last week, I was competent enough not make a ruling, but to provide guidance and I gave my guidance. If you have noticed, so far, I have deliberately reserved the ruling on a flurry of points of order because of the situation which we have created in the House.

Sooner than later, there will come a point when I will have time to make rulings. As you know, the House will be rising next Tuesday and I am going to adjourn the House sine die. When I do, I am going to rewind the proceedings from Wednesday 26th February, 2014 up to the point when I will say those magic words, sine die. I am going to review every physical act and utterance. There were many issues raised and counter statements made on one day. There were claims that this one said this and that and so on and so forth. I have asked, “How do you expect me to resolve those factual allegations?” The answer is that I need to study these matters. Therefore, please, give me an opportunity to study them.

The dust is just on the verge of settling down. I hope it will settle. I have not abrogated my responsibility to decide on these issues. I will come back to all those precedents you have referred to. I have a battery of advisors behind me; some of them with institutional memory. They were even here, when I was not present, when all these issues were handled and I am going to study those issues. So, we need to practice some patience. I do not think it will do anyone any good to continue weeping in an atmosphere of animosity. It will serve nobody.

You see, as leaders, we are expected to maintain a certain temperament, calmness, deliberation and cordiality towards each other. That is what leadership demands. We are all serving the same master and, that is, the people of Zambia. I said earlier on that the people of Zambia are looking up to us for leadership. Therefore, we need to provide exemplary leadership.

So, hon. Member for Monze Central, your point of order is taken note of. I am going to study and review all the materials on the statements that have been made, the allegations and all outstanding matters. I truly hope that we can move forward with our order of proceedings without much ado. As I keep saying, I lose track each time I have to give guidance.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Kaputa has the Floor now.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister hinges on how the Government can protect the people of Kabwe. Kabwe is still grappling with the collapse of Mulungushi Textiles Limited. Now there is KIFCO. I want to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is possible to buy off KIFCO, since it was a Government property at one point, so that the people of Kabwe are not subjected to suffering again in future.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, it would not be in public interest to use taxpayers’ money to buy back companies which were privatised and have since undergone some difficulties due to a combination of factors. I do not think that would be the most prudent use of our meagre resources from the taxpayers.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: For us to make progress on the order of proceedings and in light of a very important Motion that is pending, I will not allow any further points of order. The reason is simple. I want to allow as much debate as possible on the Motion. As you know, this is the penultimate day of the Meeting. So, we need to maximise debate on the Motion. I want to give as many people as possible, both on the left and right, a chance to engage on this subject. I have no doubt that the people of Zambia are looking forward to what I foresee to be a robust debate.

KABWE WOMEN CLUBS

423. Mr Kapyanga asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health:

(a) how many women clubs in Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency were empowered from January, 2012 to January, 2013;

(b) what kind of empowerment the clubs received;

(c) when more women clubs in the constituency would be empowered; and

(d) what measures had been taken to ensure that there is no duplication of work between the ministry and the Ministry of Gender and Child Development in disbursing funds to women clubs.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Ms Kazunga): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health, through the Women Empowerment Programme, empowered twenty-six women clubs in Kabwe Central Parliamentary Constituency from January, 2012 to January, 2013. This was in the form of grants, materials and equipment. The empowerment programme is an on-going activity. Clubs are empowered as and when they successfully apply by completing a project application form provided by the ministry. Grants are only disbursed when funds are made available from the Treasury.

The ministry has instructed its field officers at district and sub-centre levels to screen project applications before recommendation for assistance is made. Currently, the Ministry of Gender and Child Development uses our structures to identify beneficiary groups. However, efforts are underway to develop a single registry for all empowerment programmes so as to avoid duplication of work and supporting the same beneficiaries.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if there are any plans of capacitating the women with training before they are given the equipment.

Ms Kazunga: Mr Speaker, that question is important because usually, a lot of women clubs do not understand that they have to go through these programmes. We have a programme under our ministry, through the District Community Development Officers, that arrange for such programmes and training for the women groups.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ng’onga: Mr Speaker, sometimes, women in Kabwe ask for equipment like hammer mills and the funding is given as cash, probably a third of what they request for. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how the women can run their programme if they are given a third of the money because that cannot buy the equipment that they need.

Ms Kazunga: Mr Speaker, these anomalies were there previously. However, we have tried to rectify them. I can gladly tell the hon. Member of Parliament that when the clubs ask for money, we find them the exact amount that they ask for. If there is any shortfall, it means the allocation to the ministry was not enough. They are advised to apply for supplementary funds thereafter.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I would like to commend the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health for the work it is doing for the women. In Katuba, the ministry has partnered with Daughters of Mary Immaculate (DMI), a catholic wing of women, which has been imparting knowledge and practical skills to the women. The women applied for loans before the by-election and the loans were approved. May I know why the loans have been cancelled after the elections.

Mr Livune: Aah!

Ms Kazunga: Mr Speaker, perhaps, I could just enlighten the hon. Member in order to clear the misconception. We do not give loans but grants and we disburse them as they come from the ministry. Hon. Members can bear me witness on this one.

Mr Mpundu: Hear, hear!

Ms Kazunga: Certainly, the applications for loans have not been cancelled. I am sure they are still waiting for the payments. One of these days, you will gladly receive the payments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, we have been reliably informed that the loan applications have been cancelled. Could the hon. Minister tell us whether or not they have been cancelled.

Ms Kazunga: Mr Speaker, I think that is hearsay.

Mr Mushanga: Hear, hear!

Ms Kazunga: Certainly, the truth is that they have not been cancelled. The ministry is there to service the poor and give them grants. The hon. Member can visit our office to verify …

Dr Katema: No, no!

Ms Kazunga: … that the loan applications are still pending payment or that they have been cancelled, and if so, perhaps, it is because the application forms were not properly filled in. There could be some anomalies in the way applications were submitted. I am sure they have not been cancelled, but just need to be corrected and taken back to the districts.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutale (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how the application forms are handled. You know empowering our mothers is key in this nation. If there are forms that are not filled in properly, is there any feedback so that they know why they have not received the monies to start their projects? Do you give feedback, hon. Minister?

Ms Kazunga: Mr Speaker, may I advise the hon. Member of Parliament that I am doing something which has worked very well in my constituency. I use the Professional Assistant (PA) in the constituency office to advise the women on how they can fill in the application form. I do not have a problem with that. Hon. Members of Parliament are usually here in Lusaka. The constituency office can still help in filling in the forms for the women.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

LUWI MISSION HOSPITAL IN MWINILUNGA

424. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Health what support the Government provided to Luwi Mission Hospital in Mwinilunga Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministries of Health and Community Development, Mother and Child Health, supports Luwi Mission Hospital in the following areas:

(a) Funding

Luwi Mission Hospital is under Mwinilunga Community District Health Management Office and its funding is part of the monthly grant that is given to the community health office. The grant is currently K182,000 from which Luwi Mission Hospital receives an allocation of K8,000;

(b) Drugs and Medical Supplies

The facility receives drugs from Medical Stores, depending on the returns through Mwinilunga District Community Medical Office;

(c) Human Resources

Luwi Mission Hospital currently has nineteen Government employees and these include doctors, nurses, clinical officers and paramedics;

(c) Infrastructure Development

Through the 2014 Ministry of Health Infrastructural Operational Plan, K600,000 has been allocated for the following projects:

(i) Construction of an X-ray Department, Mortuary and Incinerator; and
(ii) Upgrading of the laundry and kitchen;

(d) Medical Equipment

The facility received a 200 KVA Gen-set as part of the Ministry of Health’s Health Facilities Power Sustainability Programme. Laundry equipment has also been delivered to the facility; and

(e) Technical Support

Mwinilunga Community District Health Office provides technical oversight on the operations of the facility on health service delivery.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

KONKOLA COPPER MINES PLC

425. Mr Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:

(a) why the KCM delayed the payment of salaries to its employees for the month of January, 2014; and

(b) whether the KCM was facing financial obligations and, if so, why.

The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Mbulu): Mr Speaker, following the preparations patch at the Zambia Electronic Clearance House (ECH) that was deployed in the banking system on 25th January, 2014, all commercial banks were affected as files were partially applauded to the ECH during the period. This affected the clearing of cheques across the various banks and any exchanges of files relating to payments. As a result, not all Direct Debit and Credit Clearing (DDACC) inward clearing and outward clearing cheques were processed.

Sir, the KCM was affected by this development from 27th January, 2014. Some KCM payroll and supplier payments to commercial banks were affected. Consequently, the KCM was not in any financial position that impacted payment of salaries. The late payment of some staff was a result of the above technicality in the bank clearing system although the KCM, as any other employer, paid the employees fully on time.

I thank you, Sir.
 
Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, my concern is that all the other mining companies pay their employees between 26th and 30th of every month. Why is it that only the KCM faced electronic clearing problems? There is the Copperbelt Energy Company (CEC), Chibuluma Mines (CM), Mopani Copper Mines (MCM), First Quantum Minerals (FQM), Chambeshi Metals and Non- Ferrous Company Africa (NFCA). How come this problem only affected the KCM?

Mr Mbulu: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier, the ECH is an arrangement between the KCM and the bank. We can safely call it a tailor-made arrangement. That is why the situation that arose in this particular case only affected the KCM. As for the other companies, we may not have the competence to comment.
 
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, I would like to reinforce Hon. Mwila’s statement. Hon. Minister, I think that there is a problem at the KCM and you need to move in with your counterpart to resolve the many issues. Otherwise, if you come here …

Mr Speaker: What is your question, hon. Member?

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, when will the hon. Minister, together with the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development, engage the KCM to sort out the many challenges the company is facing instead of coming here to give us academic answers?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chishimba: Yes, it is academic. Why should we pretend?

Mr Mbulu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Kamfinsa may wish to know and appreciate that, in fact, the Government has been very proactive. Little wonder it appointed the Government Technical Audit Committee whose report the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development referred to when he issued a press statement on 28th February, 2014. This morning, His Honour the Vice-President also referred to the same interventions that the Government is putting in place. The Ministry of Labour and Social Security is always in discussion with the Ministry of Mines, Energy and Water Development with a view to finding a lasting solution. This, we are doing, Mr Speaker.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Next Question. Hon. Member for Solwezi West.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, I like the emphasis.

Laughter

LUSAKA APEX MEDICAL UNIVERSITY

426. Mr Mwanza asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many students studying at the Lusaka Apex Medical University in the following programmes are sponsored by the Government:

(i) medicine;

(ii) registered nursing; and

(iii) midwifery nursing and

(b) what the total cost, per year, of training each student in each programme above is.

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, a total of forty-six students studying medicine and registered nursing at the Lusaka Apex Medical University (LAMU) are sponsored by the Government, broken down as follows:
 
 Programme  Number 
 
 Bachelor of Science in Human Biology (MBcHB)  4

 Bachelor of Science in Nursing  42

 Total 46

Mr Speaker, there are no Government-sponsored midwifery students at LAMU. However, the Government is sponsoring twenty-five students studying Bachelor of Science in Radiography at LAMU. Thus, the total number of students being sponsored by the Government at LAMU is seventy-one.

Mr Speaker, the cost per year of training each student in the above-mentioned programmes is as follows: 

 Programme Tuition Fee (ZMW) Housing (ZMW) Total (ZMW)

 Medicine 22,860.00 500.00 23,360.00

 Nursing 13,860.00 500.00 14,360.00

 Radiography 16,500.00 500.00 17,000.00 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

_________

BILLS

REPORT STAGE
 
The Business Regulatory Bill, 2013

Report Adopted.

Third Reading on Tuesday, 11th March, 2014.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Service Commissions (Amendment) Bill, 2013

__________

MOTION

ROADMAP FOR THE ENACTMENT OF A NEW CONSTITUTION

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House urges the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of a new Constitution and to expedite the process of considering the work of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution now that it has been completed and is ready for submission.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?
 
Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, before I get into my Motion, kindly permit me to give my heartfelt congratulations to a brother and friend, the hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba, which is just a mile away from here, on having emerged winner in the highly-contested by-election after the unfortunate demise of another colleague and friend, Hon. Dr Patrick Chikusu.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, on 24th of October, 1964, Zambia attained its political independence from Great Britain. Among the inheritance that came with this liberation, was a set of rules or law commonly referred to as the Constitution. It is clear that this Constitution that was given to us by our colonial masters had a colonial flavour and, as such, it was tailored to promote and entrench the much-undesired colonial hegemony where the interest of the few overruled those of the many.

Mr Speaker, it is my belief that this Motion is non-controversial and its intention is not only innocent, but also serves to assist the Government, led by the PF, and Zambia on issues of governance. Furthermore, the Motion is meant to highlight the PF’s commitments, some of which were actually the bedrock of their party manifesto. Their party manifesto was a document that was used as a platform to ascend to the Executive wing of the Government in 2011.

As I move this Motion, Sir, my consolation resides in the fact that as representatives of the people, each one of the 150 elected hon. Members, including the eight nominated hon. Members of Parliament, understand fully the dreams, desires, hopes, aspirations, interests and wishes of their specific constituencies that form the greater Zambian Republic. I urge the hon. Members of Parliament to conduct a thorough soul-search and a deep inner reflection on this matter for posterity shall have its own judgment on each and every one of us who are here during this process.

Mr Speaker, for avoidance of any doubt, and for the purpose of this Motion alone, I will, during my discourse, endevour to share with colleagues and the county at large, quotes from the speeches made by His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, before Zambians gave him the favour and gift of occupying the highest office of this land, and those that he made after he ascended to power. These statements were made after the 2008 Elections in which His Excellency, Mr Michael Sata, missed the presidency by a very narrow margin, and some that he made after 2011 when he crossed the Rubicon and became President.

Mr Speaker, let me share a brief summary of Zambia’s attempts to get away from the colonially-laced Constitution given to us by Lancaster House and where I think we are today before I get to the heart of the matter. Just like in Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, it is apparent that in 1972, about forty-two years ago, Zambia needed to change the grand law in order to suit her needs in accordance with the dichotomy of the systems at that time between the two styles of governance, namely capitalism and socialism. Zambia and many other African countries adopted a socialist stance, and Zambia further graduated it to what was commonly known as Humanism. This need saw the commencement of Constitution review commissions.

Sir, allow me to present a brief summary of each of the five Constitution review commissions Zambia has had since 1972. It is imperative that I take this House through this because there are certain quarters of this country that may have a wrong impression that the calls for this Constitution that will stand the test of time are actually just a mere push on our brothers and friends in the PF Government.

Mr Speaker, under Dr Kenneth Kaunda, the Chona Commission, led by the RGHT. Hon. Mainza Chona, may his soul rest in peace, was appointed in 1972 to consider and recommend the necessary changes to the Constitution of the Republic and that of the United National Independence Party (UNIP) to bring about the one-party participatory democracy. This resulted in the Constitution of 22nd February, 1973, which was the introduction of the One-Party State under the UNIP Government.

Secondly, Mr Speaker, there was the Mvunga Commission, led by a learned lawyer, Professor Patrick Mvunga who was appointed in 1990 to recommend a Constitution that could serve a plural political system. This resulted in the 1991 Constitution that was a compromised Constitution, as it only served as a transitional Constitution for that period.

Mr Speaker, the third one was under the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) under Dr. Fredrick Chiluba, may his soul rest in peace. This was led by another gallant son of Zambia, the late Mr John Mupanga Mwanakatwe, may his soul rest in peace, who was appointed in 1993. The commission had vast terms of reference relating to, inter alia:

(a) collect views on what type of Constitution should be enacted, bearing in mind that the Constitution should exalt, effectively entrench and promote legal and institutional protection of fundamental human rights and freedoms to stand the test of time;

(b) formulate a system of Government that would ensure that Zambia was governed in a manner that would promote democratic principles of regular and fair elections, and transparency and accountability that would guard against the re-emergence of a dictatorial form of Government that we seem to be seeing at this moment;

(c) seek to ensure the competence, impartiality and independence of the Judiciary, and for the access of the public to the law, the composition and functions of organs of the State and the manner of operating with a view to maximising their checks and balances, and securing as much as possible, their independence;

(d) seek to enact a suitable system for a smooth transfer of power following elections, the relationship that should exist between a party in power and parties in Opposition, and whether or not political parties should be subsidised by the Government, and if so, to what extent effective grassroots participation of political and district administration to be instituted; and

(e) develop the subject matter of a constitutional or political nature which, in the commission’s view, had relevance to the strengthening of the parliamentary and multiparty democracy.

Sir, this resulted in the 1996 amendment to the 1991 Constitution. This Constitution brought the parental clause for election of the President and re-introduced a simple majority for the election of the President. This was the clause that barred Dr Kenneth Kaunda from contesting the elections.

Mr Speaker, under Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace, the Mung’omba Commission, under the leadership of the late Mr Wila Desire Mung’omba, may his soul rest in peace too, was appointed in 2003. The commission had vast terms of reference including, but not limited to the following:

(a) recommending a Constitution that would exalt, effectively entrench and promote legal and institutional protection of fundamental human rights and stand the test of time;

(b) recommending a system of Government that would promote democratic governance, guard against the emergence of dictatorial form of Government, like we are seeing today;

(c) reviewing the electoral system of ensuring fairness in the conduct of presidential, parliamentary and local government elections;

(d) examining and recommending the composition and functions of organs of the Government, with a view to maximising checks and balances and securing, as much as possible, their independence; and

(e) examining the local Government system and recommending how a democratic system of local Government, as specified in the Constitution, may be realised.

Sir, following the submission of the Mung’omba Constitution to the Government, the Government, at the time of the late President Dr Patrick Levy Mwanawasa, SC., established the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) through the NCC Act No. 17 of 2007 that was enacted in this House by all the hon. Members of Parliament. The NCC submitted its Draft Constitution in August, 2010. The 2010 Draft Constitution was presented to Parliament in 2011, but failed the two-thirds required vote.

Mr Speaker, attached to this was a Zalomis Electoral Reform Committee which was established in 2003 to, among other things, analyse and make recommendations regarding the legal framework on the electoral processes.

Sir, as I had stated earlier, I now wish to bring to the attention of the House the following statements that our President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, said on this matter in 2005 before he became President:

“Towards the end of 1960, the British Government agreed to bring a Constitution which was enacted in Parliament. I do not see the difficulty of Zambia failing to have a Constitution before elections next year.”

Mr Speaker, at another forum at Mulungushi Hall, he said:

“Once you provide security of tenure, you will find that the President will not have too much power and only an inefficient President wants too much power. Otherwise, if each one of us has to contribute to the wellbeing of Zambians, you do not need to keep all the power with one man.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, at another meeting, the Head of State, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, said:

 “If, today, you have a proper Constitution, …

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Nkombo: This was your boss talking.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Nkombo:

“… there will be no way people are going to complain about some sections of investors; there will be no way people are going to complain about windfall tax because the Constitution will stipulate what to do. That is within our programme; the production of a better Constitution where Michael Sata will be controlled by the Constitution.”

Mr Muntanga: That is very good. {mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Sir, it was not long after these statements that the so-called, ‘Man of Action,’ at the time, became President of this country. As soon as he came into power, we slowly began to see the action fade from him.

Mr Speaker, on 14th October, 2011, in his address to Parliament, and in the subsequent years, the Head of State said:

“The PF Government attaches great importance to good governance and we are committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution within ninety days.”

Mr Speaker, mark the words ‘ninety days’.

Mr Muntanga: Ninety years.

Mr Nkombo:

“To this effect, we are in the process of consulting the stakeholders with the view to establishing a committee of experts to review the recommendations of previous Constitution review commissions in order to come up with a draft peoples’ Constitution.”

Mr Speaker, mark the words ‘peoples Constitution’.

 “The Draft Constitution will be subjected to a referendum and will subsequently be presented to Parliament for enactment.”

Mr Speaker, in the State of the Nation Address of 14th October 2012, on page 65, His Excellency the President said:

“I am pleased that good progress has been made. A technical committee of competent men and women was appointed within ninety days.”

Sir, I want you to mark the manipulation there. In the 2011 discourse, the Head of State indicated that he would deliver a Constitution within ninety days but, in the following year, the Head of State said that he had appointed competent men and women within ninety days. That is being superfluous with words …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was in the process of explaining, after quoting what the President said in the State of the Nation Address of 14th October, 2012, that is, one year after he became President. On page 65, the President said:

“I am pleased that good progress has since been made. A technical committee of competent men and women was appointed within ninety days.”

Sir, at that juncture, it was clear that the President had shifted his ground …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … because, in 2011, he said he would deliver the Constitution within ninety days. There was no place in his discourse where he talked about appointing a committee within ninety days. This, to me, is what showed the very first attempt to fall on his sword with regard to the commitments that he had made as an aspiring candidate to become the occupant of the highest office of the land.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the President said:

“The technical committee has worked diligently and produced the First Draft Constitution in both English and seven local languages.”

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, this was back in 2012 and my assumption is that those copies in the seven local languages are gathering dust.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the President further said:

“This approach will enable the majority of our people to effectively participate in the making of their own Constitution. The draft is now being subjected to stakeholder consultation. In this vein, I wish to call upon all well-meaning Zambians to seriously take part in this exercise and fully participate so that their views can be heard and consensus can be reached.”

Sir, this is what your hon. Members of Parliament have been doing to participate in the process although the door appears to be shutting in their faces.

Mr Speaker, on 20th September, 2013, on page 35 of his Speech on the Official Opening of Parliament, under the subtitle, ‘Governance and Administration of the State’, the President said:

“The Government is fully committed to upholding the rule of law, including the separation of powers among the three arms of Government. In this regard, I want to assure the Zambian people that our Government has no intentions whatsoever, to turn this country into a One-Party State.

“With regard to the Constitution-making process, the Government remains committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution. The consultative process has been completed and the Final Draft is expected by the end of this year, meaning 2013. Thereafter, the Government, in collaboration with other stakeholders, will guide the process accordingly.”

Mr Speaker, I am certain that these statements made by the President were actually resonating with the need that Zambia has had as far back as 1972, when the then administration led by Dr Kenneth Kaunda started the series of Constitution Reform Programmes. We have been grappling with the same process for forty-two years now.

Sir, President Michael Sata appointed the Technical Committee chaired by Hon. Justice Annel Silungwe, SC., to come up with a Constitution that will provide the functions and structures necessary to ensure constitutional democracy and for the development of a Constitutional Culture to underpin Zambia’s political system. The terms of reference, inter alia, were to refer to:
(a) the Mvunga Constitution Review;

(b) the Mwanakatwe Constitution Review; and

(c) deal with the document that came out of the Mung’omba Constitution Review.

Sir, among the terms of reference which I am sure you, colleagues, are going to be able to debate, included the following:

(a) to reflect the values and aspirations of the people of Zambia;

(b) to establish a constitutional democracy and a culture of constitutionalism for Zambia;

(c) to draft a National Constitution based on these objects;

(d) to draft a National Constitution incorporating the following principles and values: …

Mr Lufuma: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I will not allow the point of order. Give the hon. Member a chance to complete the Motion.

Mr Nkombo:
 
(i) guaranteeing peace, unity and integrity of the Republic of Zambia in order to safeguard the wellbeing of the Zambian people, and not just the wellbeing of the PF;
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: …

(ii) establishing a free democratic system of Government that guarantees good governance, constitutionalism, the rule of law, human rights, gender equity, gender equality and affirmative action;

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: …

(iii) promoting the people’s participation in the governance of the country through democratic free and fair elections and the devolution of the exercise of power;

(iv) respecting the ethnic regional diversity, communal rights, including the rights of communities to organise and participate in cultural activities and expression of the identities. For example, I am a Tonga;

(v) ensuring the provision of the basic needs of all Zambians through the establishment of the equitable framework of economic growth and equitable access to national resources;

(vi) promoting the facilitation of regional and international co-operation to ensure economic development, peace and stability and support to democracy and human rights;

(vii) strengthening national integration and unity;

(viii) creating conditions conducive to free and fair exchange of ideas;

(ix) ensuring the participation of people in management of public affairs, and not just a family tree or a family forest;

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker,

(x) ensuring a free, fair and responsible media;

(xi) drafting a Constitution that will ensure that excessive and unfettered powers are not given to any particular organ of State, commission or constitutional functionary such as the President; 
Mr Speaker, these are the issues that the President spoke about in the earlier quotes I made:

“the Constitution must control Michael Sata and not vice versa.”

(xii) drafting a National Constitution that will incorporate social, economic, cultural and religious environment rights for all Zambians, paying particular attention to the rights of the child, persons with disabilities, women and other vulnerable sectors of the community and ensuring that these are fully enjoyed by Zambians and upheld by everyone and every constitutional organ of the State, including the police;

(xiii) drafting a National Constitution, incorporating a democratic electoral system that will enhance representation of various groups in society, an electoral process that is free and fair with a level-playing field, an electoral environment that would minimise electoral malpractices and hostilities that are championed at this stage by the P; …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: …

(xiv) drafting a National Constitution providing an independent Electoral Commission that will ensure credibility to the electoral process and which will be efficient and effective in carrying out the mandate as established in the Constitution and other Laws of Zambia; and
 
(e) providing for any constitutional democratic issues that will promote and enhance democratic governance.

Mr Speaker, I think that this is the bedrock of my discourse today and I have finished quoting the President and the terms of reference. Let me now get into the heart of the matter.

Sir, through its rank and file, the PF has been giving conflicting statements about this process. In its discourse, we have heard …

Mr Kabimba, SC. entered the Chamber.

Mr Nkombo: … my elder brother the hon. Minister of Justice, walking here, giving statements on the Floor of this House. He has made three ministerial statements, not out of his own volition, but arising from points of orders. One of these points of order was mine and one was by the hon. Member for Lubansenshi. I cannot quite remember who raised the other point of order.

Sir, the expressions of the hon. Minister of Justice with regard to this process, compared to those of His Excellency the President are not in tandem. The statements that the President has been making lately have caused worry. The President’s comments, starting from those he made on Yangeni Radio Station where he lit a small fire in the presence of my uncle, …

Mr Muntanga: Which uncle?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Daniel Munkombwe, who traversed the country from the Southern Province to Luapula in Mansa.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, they sat in a Community Radio Station where the President was quoted as having said, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

I provided guidance earlier on. Let us debate this issue quietly. I am going to give every person who would like to speak an opportunity to speak. It does not matter how long this process will take us. Even if it entails debating overnight on Tuesday, let it be.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Ya tabusa.

Mr Speaker: I can withstand overnight debate on Tuesday night.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I was in the process of demonstrating, through this humble discourse, the difference in statements from the hon. Minister of Justice and those for his boss, the President. I was in the process of saying that His Excellency the President lit a small fire in Mansa at Yangeni Radio Station where the President decided to announce that the Constitution simply requires a few clauses to be amended when so much money has been appropriated by this House to facilitate the work of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: This is the insensitivity that we, on your left, and the Zambian people at large, have found to be worrying.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: It is actually worrying.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the failure to be forthright about this process is between the people whom I consider, at the moment, to be the strongest in this land. That is, Mr Kabimba, SC. and Mr Sata. They are the two strongest people as far as I am concerned. The two are giving conflicting statements. Can you imagine what would happen to the Christian fraternity if God and angel Gabriel were giving conflicting statements?

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: The Christian community would go into disarray.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Who is Gabriel?

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: If the hon. Minister of Justice, and for ease of reference, I am comparing him to Angel Gabriel, …

Mr Muntanga: Aah, no!

Mr Nkombo: … can come here …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Muntanga, please, do not disturb your colleague. He wants to complete moving the Motion.

Dr Kaingu interjected.

Mr Nkombo: … in the usual diabolical fashion of donchi kubeba, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … and assure us through the Chair, …

Mr Speaker: What do you mean by that?

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I am told Donchi kubeba is a culture of deception coined by His Honour the Vice-President when his party was fighting to get into power. The PF used that phrase to ask the people to say one thing and do the opposite. The donchi kubeba wilalila phrase meant that the Zambians did not have to cry because everything was going to be alright.

Mr Speaker, on several occasions, the hon. Minister of Justice has come to this House to give assurances while his mentor, …

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … the President of the Republic of Zambia, has been saying certain things at every opportunity. At one time, the President said:

“Do people eat the Constitution?”

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh, oh!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, he meant that those who are calling for a new Constitution must be ignored.

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh, oh!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, he even appointed someone whom, we, from this side of the divide, do not consider to be called the Chief Justice or the most learned woman in the land.

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, have you ever seen an animal-driven Constitution? I am speaking factually.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Correct!

Mr Muntanga: Animal driven.

Mr Nkombo: We feel that at this stage, Sir, that there has been excessive trivialisation of a very important process.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Question!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we have heard the hon. Members on the right in the corridors saying:

“Mubaziba ba Sata mwamene balili. ”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Allow me to translate what that means. It means you know how the old man, Mr Sata, is. You just accept him as he is.

Hon. Opposition Members: No way.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we refuse to accept President Sata as he is. We want him to understand that the position that his hon. Minister of Justice has taken on the Floor of this House is a respectable position because he has come here to give assurances to the people. If they want to joke, kumishabo.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: What is that?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, we only use one language here, and that is 
English.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Any other language is unacceptable. Please, do not take away precious time from this very important Motion.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: You started off very well and you were very earnest, factual and objective but, now, towards the end, you have taken a different trajectory altogether …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … and this is beginning to undermine the House, its decorum and dignity.

Mr Muntanga: That is what is interesting now.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I was saying that the reason the hon. Minister has been giving assurances to the nation, through this Assembly, is to enable the people regain confidence in the process. His boss has been emphatic about the need to ignore those calling for a people-driven Constitution and stating that there is nowhere in the world where there is an animal-driven Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Earlier, Sir, I quoted the President’s discourse where he made about five assurances relating to a people-driven Constitution. For him to start trivialising this process, to me, Gary Nkombo, is an indication that the President has fallen on his own sword.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am sure you understand what it means to fall on your own sword.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, this attitude of haphazardness and inconsistencies between word and deed by the President and his hon. Minister of Justice, who has been massaging this House by telling it and the nation that the process is on course, is worrying.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, at this stage, I would like the hon. Minister of Justice and his boss to commence an exercise of restoring people’s confidence in this process and their party. This is the confidence they fought very hard to attain. It is not worth it for them to continue falling on their swords.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, they are promoting a dangerous state of …

 Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Nkombo: … affairs.

Mr Muntanga: Look at them.

Mr Nkombo: I was fortunate that a day before I was to move this Motion, something seemed to have happened. There was a meeting at State House. However, there are conflicting statements …

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: … from the media about the outcome of that meeting. In my earlier discourse, I said that we must allow the media to report factually. One end of the media reported that President Sata had failed to commit to the process of delivering the Constitution, while other media houses reported that he is committed to doing that. I am trying to demonstrate …

Mr Muntanga: Confusion.

Mr Nkombo: … the amount of diamarca …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … that is going on as a result of the inconsistencies arising from the pronouncements by the PF Government.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Nkombo, maybe, my vocabulary is limited to the extent of that word you referred to. Are you still using the Queen’s language?

Mr Nkombo: Sir, there is also a Queen in Holland. Diamarca is a Dutch/Boer expression which means total confusion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, for ease of reference, in the hon. Minister of Justice‘s language, the equivalent term is kupyopyongana …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: What does that mean?

Mr Nkombo: It means confusion.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Again, you will be compelled …

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, kupyopyongana means confusion of the highest order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Nkombo, in order to avoid all these unnecessary interjections, just use the English language because that is what our standard demands. So, do not allow me to constantly interject because I have received a very long list of your colleagues on the left who would like to speak. So, quite frankly, what is happening now is that we are wasting time. We are simply wasting time.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Speaker: You are complaining about trivialising this process, but if we proceed in this manner of debate, we will begin trivialising the process. There is one standard of communication which is English. Why should we run away from that standard?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am thankful for your counsel, but there may be a need for me to explain that I normally think in Tonga and that is why I later translate the meaning. The Standing Orders allow me …

Mr Speaker: If you think in Tonga, you must pause, and translate mentally, from Tonga to English.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, thank you very much.

As a matter of fact, I am very far from being trivial. The point I am trying to emphasise is that they must respect the processes that they began.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mr Nkombo: That is the bottom line. They should not fall on their own swords. They must continue to respect their processes because great men live by their word.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I am using the term ‘men’ generically. Great men and women live by their word and everybody knows that.

Mr Speaker, it is for this reason that I would like the hon. Minister of Justice and his colleagues to honour the great men who put tireless efforts in these commissions posthumously.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I am talking about Messrs Mainza Chona, John Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba, who departed not too long ago. Honour these men for the processes that this country assigned them to do and give us our Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: We do not want to honour you posthumously. We would like to honour you while you are still alive.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Protect your integrity.

This Motion is not political and, if anybody wants to think that it is, they are mistaken. It is a seamless and colourless Motion that is for the good of all Zambians; young and old; male and female; and black, white or yellow.

It is for this reason, Sir, that I urge this Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of a new Constitution and expedite the process, considering that the report of the Technical Committee on Drafting of the Constitution has been completed and is ready for submission. 

With these few remarks, Sir, I beg to move.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Mbulakulima: Now, Mr Speaker.

Sir, in case there are people who have forgotten my name, I am Mwansa Mbulakulima, Member of Parliament for Chembe.

Laughter {mospagebreak}

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I want to thank and congratulate the hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba on making it to this important House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: I think that any reasonable person will agree with me that at a time such as this one, we, in the Opposition, need a robust debater like Hon. Shakafuswa.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: He has come at the right time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I want to thank you most sincerely for giving me the opportunity to second this Private Member’s Motion urging the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of a new Constitution.

I also want to thank the mover of the Motion, Hon. Gary Nkombo, Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central, not only for the able manner in which he has presented this important national agenda, but also for the visionary and magnanimous style in which he has articulated the subject.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: There could have been no better and right person to second this Motion than me, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: … a Member of Parliament whose electorate has suffered persecution and blatant social exclusion by this brutal Government in the last two-and-a-half years due to this bad Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, the House may recall that last year, the nation was shocked to discover that thirteen out of fourteen constituencies in Luapula Province had received the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: It is true.

Mr Mbulakulima: … by August, except Chembe, the constituency that I represent.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mbulakulima: The reason was simple. It belongs to the Opposition and, in the PF’s view, it did not deserve the allocation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mbulakulima: About two weeks ago, all the hon. Members of Parliament from Luapula Province were invited to the Office of the Minister of Local Government and Housing to look at the projects being implemented by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing in Luapula Province.

In their usual blatant way of calculated social exclusion, this MP was not invited.

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, the schedule in my possession …

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for granting me this opportunity to raise this point of order. I am compelled to do so, bearing in mind that you have said that there should be no points of order.

Mr Speaker, in Luapula, we have a committee for all Members of Parliament from Luapula Province which I happen to chair. Every time there is a meeting for hon. Members of Parliament, I send a circular to all Members. For all but one of the meetings, we have asked the hon. Member for Chembe to attend, but he has elected to absent himself.

Sir, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Chembe in order to come here and falsify issues by insinuating that he is being left out of the Luapula agenda?

I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let us not disappoint the Zambian people. This issue has been high on the agenda of our nation. Since last week, every news item and headline has virtually centered on this issue. Therefore, if we fail to focus, we shall be doing a disservice to the nation.

In so far as focus is concerned, I must credit the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central who moved the Motion because he was focused. He dealt with the subject matter and, quite frankly, everybody who will come after the seconder, be it on my left or right, should be focused.

Hon. Member for Chembe, I know that you have got a prepared script which may have a lot of grievances. However, I am not privy to those grievances and so I can only give a prognosis. I expect that this debate will be debated in a focused fashion because it is very specific. If we are going to go through all these issues such as who called for this or that meeting, who attended what meeting or who was absent, what do you expect the Speaker to do? Do you expect him to rule on such matters? Certainly, he cannot rule on them because this is a specific issue. If I may summarise, the gist of the Motion is to urge colleagues on the right to come up with a roadmap.

The hon. Member for Mazabuka Central has provided a backdrop from 1972 to where we are at the moment in this effort. So, I expect that we should be focused. However, when you start bringing in sundry issues such as this or that went wrong, we are not being focused and fair to the Motion itself. Could the hon. Member for Chembe zero in on the subject?

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you. I wish the …

Mr Speaker: Order!

By so doing, we shall avoid points of order. I want to discourage points of order.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I wish one can just be a bit wary. I want to conclude by making sure that hon. Members see the linkage. The schedule, which I will lay on the Table, indicates that my district has not been provided for as regards markets and feeder roads. Therefore, one can strongly argue …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

Mr Mbulakulima: … that it is through the process of enacting a new Constitution that grievances of individuals or groups that are excluded from full participation can be redressed.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, the enactment of a people-driven Constitution will guarantee equal choice, participation, opportunity and distribution of resources …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: … and that the vices of exclusion can be fought and addressed. It is as simple as that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, there has been blatant abuse of human rights under this Government. Our demand for a new Constitution is, therefore, a noble one. I would like to urge this House to stand firm and protect democracy.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, democracy is necessary for the upholding of human rights because it gives people the voice and facilitates popular pressure. Democracy makes it possible for people to claim and demand for their rights without fear. Zambia should not be turned into an autocratic society.

 Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, let it be known that we can only achieve our objectives of getting our cherished Constitution by popular pressure through a vibrant media, an active civil society, a well-organised student movement and a democratic multi-party process of which this House is a product. Above all, we must endeavour to ensure total commitment towards the involvement of all citizens, including my colleagues seated on the other side of the House.

Sir, it is the Constitution which seeks to protect the inherent dignity of each and every individual. We, therefore, call upon this Government to promote the attributes of good governance based on transparency, responsibility, accountability, participation and, above all, responsiveness to the needs of the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: In this regard, we demand a people-driven Constitution.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mbulakulima:  Mr Speaker, let me come back to the Motion.

Laughter

 Mr Mbulakulima: The subject of the Motion has a lot of bearing on the democratic development of our country, Zambia, and the observance of the rule of law. The enactment of a people-driven Constitution is critical as all power, whether of Parliament, the Executive or the courts, must be exercised in accordance with the Constitution. The Constitution is the final word on the powers and roles of each arm of the Government. It is with this understanding, Sir, that I have been prompted to second this important Motion. It is, therefore, my hope that we shall get support from your right.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, this Motion is timely, following the statement that was issued by Hon. Wynter M. Kabimba, SC., Minister of Justice, on the Floor of the House on Wednesday, 26th February, 2014 in which he stated that the Chairperson of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution had informed him that the final draft report was ready for submission to His Excellency the President.

Mr Speaker, in another statement that the hon. Minister of Justice issued on the Floor of the House on 10th December, 2013, he stated that only when the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has submitted its final report to His Excellency the President will the roadmap for enacting the new Constitution be published.

Mr Speaker, what has been worrying us and the people of Zambia is the type of vagueness and, sometimes, contradictory positions that the Executive has taken on the Constitution-making process of late.

In 2011, as stated by the mover of the Motion, His Excellency the President stated very clearly that his Government was going to deliver a new people-driven Constitution within ninety days and that the Draft Constitution would be subjected to a Referendum and subsequently be presented to Parliament for enactment.

 In 2012, during his Address to this House, the President stated that the Final Draft Constitution was expected to be handed over to the Government by the end of 2013 and, thereafter, the Government would guide the process accordingly in collaboration with other stakeholders.

Mr Speaker, statements that have been coming from the Executive have not been inspiring. You will recall that on 30th November, 2013, His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, was reported as having said that the Constitution-making process was not necessary and that the current Constitution simply required amendments. How can this be when everybody knows that once you touch the Bill of Rights, there must be a Referendum? The demand for an enhanced Bill of Rights is one of the primary reasons the people have demanded for a new Constitution. How can the President suggest that only amendments are required?

It is this type of talk that has led to widespread condemnation of the Government’s failure to release the Draft Constitution. President Michael Sata has shown a remarkable lack of interest in the Constitution-making process after the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution revealed that its work had been completed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: If it is the wish of the President and the PF to make a 360 degree turn, then, let them explicitly state so rather than playing a game of cat and mouse or the blame game as it is. If this is not the case, then, let them demonstrate, today, that they will do the honourable thing by fulfilling the promise they made to the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, the die has been cast. We would like to urge the Government to honour the promise made by the Head of State when he took his oath of office in front of the Supreme Court Buildings whilst holding the Bible in his hand. Further, we would like to urge the Government to honour the undertakings of the Head of State when he came to this august House to open the 1st Session of the Eleventh National Assembly under the leadership of the PF.

Sir, all hon. Members of Parliament, the people of Zambia, civil society and the Church took him for his word and believed that he would do the right thing as he promised.

Mr Speaker, let me now move to the rationale of the Motion and importance of the Constitution in case there are some colleagues across who do not know this. I would like to elucidate the contradiction on circumstances which have made us move this Motion urging the Government to come up with a roadmap on the Constitution. I will do this by briefly discussing two items because I know that my colleagues are itching to participate in the debate.

The first issue relates to why we have ended up in this situation where we no longer trust the goodness of the Government as regards this process. Secondly, I will talk about the importance of a new Constitution, since we are now being told that the current Constitution is functional and that we have held six elections based on it.

Mr Speaker, when this whole process of a new Constitution started more than twenty years ago with the Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission, as far as the people of Zambia were concerned, it was predicated upon the premise that there should be no White Paper on which the Government decided what to keep in the Constitution and what to throw out.

By the time we were getting to the Mung’omba Commission, it was the overwhelming view of the people that the Enquiries Act was not sufficient as the basis upon which this process should rest. It was also felt that a legal framework be put in place which denies the Government from gravitating towards a White Paper and choosing what suites or does not suit those in power. Hence, the National Constitutional Conference Act of 2007 due to people’s demand for a Constitutional Assembly was enacted.

When there was a change of Government, none of these demands of the people fell off. The only exception was that people believed that the new Government was firmly in tune with the wishes of the vast majority of the citizens. The people wanted a people-driven Constitution and, since too much time and money had already been expended on this process, they wanted it quickly. So, they were prepared to overlook the strict demands of a legal framework and clear roadmap. However, it would be fair and honest to indicate that the civil society did request that a legal framework be put in place with a specific time frame.

Mr Speaker, keeping in pace with people’s wishes, barely six weeks after taking office, the PF Government appointed the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution on 16th November, 2011. The Report of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution, a copy of which I have here, that was presented to the National Convention held in April, 2012, stated that:

“The Committee was appointed in response to public demand for a people-driven Constitution. The Committee of experts was appointed to review the recommendations of all previous Constitution review commissions in order to draft and present a Constitution which would reflect the will and aspirations of the people. An important aspect on which the terms of reference are anchored is that the Constitution shall be people-driven and reasonably inclusive. The Committee takes note of the fact that the terms of reference requires the use of the Mung’omba Draft Constitution as the basis of drafting the Zambian Constitution. This, therefore, means that the Committee will not receive new submissions, but use available information and identify key issues to be presented to the Provincial Constitution Committees in all centres and facilitate debate of the key issues in all ten provinces, and administratively support the ratification of the Draft National Constitution.”

Mr Speaker, this statement has clear implications which will be picked up by my colleagues as we debate the Motion.

Sir, more than two years have passed since the ninety-day promise was made for the deliverance of a new Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mr Mbulakulima: Further, and perhaps more important to the current cause of agitation, one year has passed since the First Draft Constitution was debated and ratified by the final People’s Convention at Mulungushi International Conference Centre in April, 2013.

Mr Speaker: Sorry, hon. Member, we have a technical point. You are seconding a Motion and you need to do that within the time allowed. Otherwise, the Motion will lapse.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, among the resolutions made at that convention were the following:

(a) that a clear roadmap based on a legal framework be recommended by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution;

(b) that a Referendum Commission be recommended for establishment after the report has been submitted; and

(c) that a referendum be held within twelve months of submission of the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, let me now move on to my second part that talks about the importance of a new Constitution. We are being told that the current Constitution is functional and that we have held six elections on it. There is no crisis for those living on Jupiter but, for us living on earth, there is a crisis.

Hon. opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: The demand for a people-driven Constitution has never been driven by the functionality of the Constitution, but rather by the fact that the current Constitution has not adequately responded to the tenets of promoting a vibrant and consolidated democratic system that ensures the protection of human, economic, gender and youth rights.

Mr Speaker, let me conclude now because I can go on itemising the reasons for the situation we have found ourselves in.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, as I conclude my debate, let me echo your plea for the conclusion of this process. Those who are murmuring should know that I still have an hour of the Floor. Therefore, I am in control. So, they should not worry.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, the conclusion of this process has been elusive in the last four decades. Therefore, I urge the Government to do the following:

(a) officially release the Final Draft Constitution and the report to Zambians so that they can study them and decide on the form of support they will render to the next process;

(b) communicate to the citizens a clear and timely roadmap on the Constitution-making process; and

(c) appoint a Referendum Commission and begin the process of holding a Referendum to vote on the new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, all these three items must be considered forthwith. I know that a Referendum can be held. I, therefore, …

Hon. PF Members: Hammer, hammer!

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I am totally in control. Looking at the suffering of the people, the whole nation is anxiously waiting to see which direction this House is going to take on this matter. I, therefore, controllably second the Motion moved by this able hon. Member of Parliament (pointing at Mr Nkombo).

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this Motion. From the outset, I want to say that I wish to support the Motion that has been ably moved by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central and seconded by the hon. Member for Chembe Constituency.

Mr Speaker, there is honour and integrity in keeping one’s word. Hon. Members of Parliament are responding to the issues that the people of Zambia have asked us to represent them on in this House. Under Article 31 of the current Constitution, the Executive is accountable to Parliament. Therefore, am I going to be worried about a sitting allowance when this Parliament was used to appropriate K150 billion for the Constitution-making process through the Budget? Who has wasted taxpayers’ money? Who should be held accountable?

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, some people have asked the question: Can you ‘eat’ the Constitution? The answer is yes. We can ‘eat’ the Constitution. If hon. Members of Parliament knew that the exercise that we were engaging in by appropriating funds to the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution was going to be an exercise in futility, I do not think any of them would have approved the Budget. We would have refused to do so.

Therefore, we shall hold you accountable for wasting colossal sums of money. That money should have been used to put food on the tables of our people and to build hospitals and roads …

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: The money should have been used to put up clinics in Lubanseshi Constituency.

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Wasted expenditure.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: By the PF.

Mr Mucheleka: You are going to be held accountable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: If you cannot be held accountable now, since we know you and we your records, …

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: … we shall hold your children accountable.

Mr Chipungu: What they have done to us is nothing. We shall do worse things to them.

Mr Mucheleka: You can ‘eat’ the Constitution. You are talking about ensuring that the resources that are appropriated by Parliament are used for the intended purpose and that there should be no deception in the use of the resources, and yet you bring in the so-called don’t kubeba which is deception.

Mr Kalaba: Aah, iwe!

Mr Mucheleka: You are refusing to be held accountable. What I saw in the last few days is very sad. This is why we are talking about a people-driven Constitution and ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: … the separation of powers …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear!

Mr Mucheleka: … so that the issue of using Parliament as an extension of the Executive can be addressed.

Mr Muchima: Yes.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Yesterday, I saw something that I have never seen in many years. I saw many paramilitary police officers clad in uniform.

Mr Muchima: Mm!

Mr Mucheleka: They were not outside, but here in this building. Who brought them here? Who accepted that they should be here?

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: It is because of the Constitution and this is why we are saying there should be a separation of powers. We are talking about ensuring that there is a separation of powers so that the three organs of the State function …

Mr Shakafuswa: Sampa has taken your bottle of water.

Mr Mucheleka: … independently of each other and oversight …

Mr Chipungu: Sampa why?

Mr Mucheleka: …. is provided.

Mr Speaker, we need a people-driven Constitution, in order to enhance good governance and have effective institutions. At the moment, all organs of the State are dysfunctional.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mucheleka: They are rubber stamping.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Yes.

Mr Mucheleka: Except for your Executive.

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: In the last few days, Parliament has ‘fought’ for its rights under very difficult conditions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Mucheleka: You saw what happened.

Mr Muchima: Yes!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, in case you are not aware of what is happening around the Parliament Buildings, yesterday, after I posed a question, as I was going to the Public Accounts Committee, I saw a big number of paramilitary police officers …

Mr Mwila: Nalelo epo bali.

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: … whom we normally see outside the House but, yesterday, they were coming from the House. Who brought them here?

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: What does that mean? It means that Parliament has been hijacked by the Executive.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: That is why we need a new Constitution that should ensure that the three organs of the State operate independently and provide oversight on each other.

Mr Muchima: Yes.

Mr Mucheleka: That is what we need.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: That is the main reason we are calling for a people-driven Constitution.

Mr Speaker, earlier, I said that there is honour and integrity in keeping one’s word. Page 42 of the PF Manifesto, …

Mr Musukwa: Nibani ba kupele, iwe?

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: … says: …

Mr Mwila: Te PF Manifesto, iyo.

Did you sign for it?

Mr Mucheleka: …

“ … Legal and Constitutional Reforms, under the MMD Government, the opportunity to have a new Constitution that reflects the will and aspirations of people and which should stand the test of time has once again eluded the Zambian people. The colossal expenditure of more than K135 billion incurred under the National Constitutional Conference has been a sheer waste of scarce resources that could have been applied to meaningful national development. The failed process has been …

Mr Musukwa: Substitute. Mu sabuleni.

Mr Mucheleka: …

“ … nothing, but the betrayal of Zambians. Additionally, the rules of law, social justice, and the justice delivery system have been compromised.

It goes on further, Mr Speaker, to talk about how electoral reforms will be undertaken under the PF.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mucheleka: It also says that:

“ … the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has suffered from various perceptions in the eyes of the stakeholders and the general public such as a lack of independence from the influence of the Executive and the Government and or the MMD in the administration of the elections, partisan appointments of members of the commission by the President who is an interested party in the Presidential and the General elections lack transparency in the transmission of election results from the counting centres to the ECZ and poor or erroneous recording of the results at the polling and collation centres.”

Mr Speaker, these are the promises in the PF Manifesto. Based on the manifesto, the people of Zambia trusted the PF. Further, when the President addressed this House on the Official Opening of the Third Session of the Eleventh National Assembly, he said: …

Mr Musukwa: Ba Independent!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Mucheleka:

“With regard to the Constitution-making process, the Government remains committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution. The consultative process has been completed and the Final Draft Constitution is expected by the end of this year. Thereafter, the Government, in collaboration with the other stakeholders, will guide the process accordingly.”

Mr Speaker, this was in 2013. Where is the problem?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Where is the problem?

Mr Mwaliteta: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions{mospagebreak}

Mr Mucheleka: … I am saying we can ‘eat’ the Constitution because, …

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: … Zambians made submissions which were captured in the Expanded Bill of Rights on human rights, civil and political rights …

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: … access to information and …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear. Hear!

Mr Mucheleka: … peaceful protests.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Mucheleka: Because of this Constitution, people cannot hold peaceful demonstrations. If hon. Members of Parliament can be threatened with a huge presence of the Zambia Police Force, what about the people out there?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Mucheleka: All this is happening because the hon. Members of Parliament are trying to exercise their right to hold this Government accountable.

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to raise a point of order. The hon. Member on the Floor has continuously, …

Mr Namulambe: Waffled.

Mr Kampyongo: … in his waffling, …

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: … referred to the men and women in uniform whose duty he knows very well is to protect him and the citizens out there?

Mr Kalaba: Yes!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member on the Floor knows very well that the conduct of hon. Members in this House has drawn a lot of public interest …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: … and a lot of threats have been issued against him and his colleagues because of their misconduct.

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Is he in order, Sir, to draw the Zambia Police officers who are conducting themselves professionally ...

Dr Simbyakula: Yes.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: … in protecting this important institution of the State? Is he in order to draw them into his debate?

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I have been extremely slow to allow points of order. There is a single reason I am avoiding that. As I have mentioned earlier, I want to have an informed, robust and focused debate. I have no apology to make for that.

The mover of the Motion has provided a useful backdrop to this debate, but what I am seeing now is that we are moving away from the Motion.

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Let me finish giving my guidance. You see, you have precious time to debate this Motion. Yes, you can make your comments about security and the Constitution and I am observing the situation. However, we also know the reality of the situation at Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Let us not pretend that we do not know what is going on. You know very well that we do not normally have the police here. I do not want to go into a narration of events leading to where we are. We do not rely on police officers to run Parliament. In any case, some of the threats that have been posed are external. They are directed at Parliament from outside. So, if other agencies are performing their task, why should you elect, in the context of this Motion, to begin making insinuations?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I know what this Motion is all about and have summarised it. It is about a roadmap on the Constitution-making process. It has been carefully crafted and worded. It is saying, if I may repeat, that the Constitution, in so far as the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution is concerned, is ready for submission. Hon. Nkombo is asking what should follow next. Where do we move from here? This is where we should be focusing our energies. Now, if you seize this opportunity to insinuate and try to embarrass the institution of Parliament, you are just getting away from your Motion and wasting very precious time. I have a long list of hon. Members who want to debate and, God forbid that everybody debates in a manner that is irrelevant and repetitious. Some of these statements and quotations have already been made. Fifteen or twenty of you can repeat the same quotations, but is that an economic way of using time?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Speaker: The answer is no.

Hon. Opposition Members: Emphasis, emphasis!

Mr Speaker: I know that there are murmurings of, “Emphasis, emphasis! You can emphasise the same points for ten hours, but the rules do not allow. The rules say that repetition is not permitted. Whether you call it emphasis or not, I call it repetition and, if it is repetition, I can stop it, but I have held back and I am hoping that we can have smooth, logical and coherent debate. However, if you think that this is a time to vent emotions and raise all sorts of matters to try to embarrass the institution, that will not do. I am very clear about what has happened at Parliament. If you want to know, my conscience is clear. I will end on this note.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, what worries me and the Zambian people about the current Constitution is that institutions are weak and are not functioning. These institutions are being abused. I have no problem with the men and women in uniform, but with those who are abusing them and, consequently, abusing the Zambian people.

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, I am talking about why we need a new Constitution that will ensure that power is shared and people’s rights are respected. I am talking about a new Constitution that will ensure that …

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, while we cannot eat the Constitution, we have Constitutional institutions such as the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC). Are we saying that those institutions are not important? These are very important institutions which are not doing their part because they have been hijacked and have become weak. It is because of the kind of Constitution we have that we have institutions that protect a Minister while he is in office but, once that Minister resigns willingly, the same institutions are used against him. This is because of the bad Constitution.

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, this is why, today, the Zambian people, standing …

Interruptions
 
Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Mucheleka: … in solidarity with hon. Members of Parliament, are demanding a roadmap on the Constitution-making process. The civil society organisations, the Church, workers, farmers and the poor people in the rural areas are resolved on the issue of a people-driven Constitution.

Yes, you may be thinking that you are more powerful than anyone else, but I want to tell you, through Mr Speaker, that the Zambian people are the majority and you are a minority.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, on more than two occasions, the President has threatened to dissolve Parliament. I dare him to dissolve Parliament so that he will see whom the people will side with. The Zambian people are siding with the hon. Members of Parliament on the issue of a people-driven Constitution.

Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: If you think you still …
 
Interruptions

Mr Mucheleka: … have the support of the people because of the deception that you used in 2011, dissolve Parliament today so that we can go for fresh elections and see who will come back with a fresh mandate.
 
Mr Speaker, I strongly support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I can see many people, on both the right and left, standing. I will allow the hon. Minister of Justice …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I will explain why. The problem with this House is that it suffers from impatience.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: There is a lot of impatience. You should give time to your Speaker to explain some of these things. I do not just make decisions from without. The hon. Minister of Justice is leaving the country.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Yes.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Yes, he is. He is leaving the country in the next few hours. There will not be an end to the debate, but he is leaving the country. So, I want to give him an opportunity, as hon. Minister of Justice, to participate in the debate on the Motion. What is wrong with that?

The hon. Minister of Justice.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kabimba, SC.): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Those are the relevant debates.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to debate this very important Motion. I would also like to congratulate the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central on introducing this Motion. I also want to take this opportunity to correct the record because I know that the proceedings of this House are recorded accurately. Nowhere do I have a status that can be compared with that of Angel Gabriel. I am a mortal man of flesh and blood. I also want …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!
 
Mr Kabimba, SC.: I also want to correct the misconception that I am the second most powerful person in this country. That is not true. I am just a simple participant who has been given a responsibility by my colleagues in the party and His Excellency the President. I shall, therefore, discharge that responsibility.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I am petrified to see that after two weeks of what you described as unprecedented and unfortunate conduct of the hon. Members on your left, a Motion has been introduced in accordance with the rules of this House to debate what could have been conclusively debated on 26th February, 2014, when I made my ministerial statement in this House. This goes to confirm that the conduct exhibited by those concerned was not out of ignorance about the rules of the House, but a deliberate act to breach the said rules …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: …with utmost impunity. They know very well …

Hon. Opposition Members: Motion, Motion!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … that you are not the architect of the Constitution-making process.

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I have listened to the debate …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us have order. This Motion is very emotive. If we do not restrain our emotions and we decide to react in any manner that we wish, we shall not make any progress.

Mr Mbulakulima interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Just wait, hon. Member for Chembe. This is an on-going debate, and I have assured you that we are going to continue with the business into next week on Tuesday when our Standing Orders will be suspended to allow for the completion of business. You see, it will not do us any good to try to stop somebody who is speaking. If you do not agree with what somebody is saying, you just hold your peace, take your time and, at an appropriate juncture, when you point out to me that you want to speak or debate, I will give you the Floor. The hon. Member wants to speak and you are trying to stop him. How can you all debate at the same time? How can you possibly debate in that fashion? You know that it is not possible to debate in that fashion, and I should not spend the rest of the afternoon making the same appeals. Restrain your emotions. People have been saying all sorts of things, but I have also restrained my emotions. I would have jumped in.

Mr Muntanga: Oh!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Oh, yes!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

I was just watching as the insinuations were being made because I head this place. These people (Parliamentary Security Officers) do not just come here by accident.

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Speaker: Order!

However, we know that there has been a break down in the proceedings of the House. There has been a problem here. Let us not burry our heads in the sand. These people are not here all the time.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

 Well, there is a reason for their presence here, but I do not want to go that far. Hon. Member for Monze Central, please, give the hon. Minister a chance to respond.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much …

Hon. Government Members: Hammer, hammer!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Let him respond.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Yes, he will respond.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I have listened to the debate about the PF having promised the Zambian people a Constitution within ninety days of its coming into office. If we did so, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … it was out of our lack of knowledge …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … of the following: …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! What?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: …

(a) levels of corruption and mismanagement of the affairs of the State by the previous administration;

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker,

(b) the poverty levels prevailing amongst the majority of our people at the time, and their state of destitution; …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: …

(c)  the poor health facilities which became a death trap for the majority our people; …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: …

(d) the limited employment opportunities for the youth of our country, irrespective of their high qualifications;

(e)  the limited education opportunities from primary to tertiary level for our people left behind by the previous administration; and …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: …

(f) the poor road infrastructure which limited investment in the rural areas so as to create employment and promote crop marketing for our people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, it was only when we formed Government that we came to the realisation that the figures about Zambia’s economic growth, which we were reading about, did nothing to improve the actual welfare of the people of this country.

Mr Kalaba: They were fake.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: It was economic growth for only a few and mainly those who occupied political office at the time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: And their children.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: This is the political elite that …

Ms Kapata: Ba Shikapwasha.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … Moeletsi Mbeki refers to as the architects of poverty.

Sir, the PF, as a political party, was voted for by the poor and disadvantaged of this country.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: It was voted for by those whom the famous revolutionary Frantz Fanon refers to as the wretched of the earth. Those who had lost hope to ever live a decent life until the Lord Jesus Christ …

Mr Muchima interjected.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: There shall be no points of order between now and 1255 hours.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … comes to redeem them. These are the citizens of this country who had lost hope to ever live a decent life until the Lord Jesus Christ comes to redeem them. They have since been redeemed by the PF.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: It would, therefore, be a betrayal on our part not to attend to the immediate needs of this constituency whose life expectancy has fallen to below forty years; whose children are still dying before the age of five; our poor mothers who are still dying during child birth; those of our people whose children are consigned to illiteracy, a constituency which still has no access to portable water, good sanitation and decent shelter.

Sir, whereas I am the first one to acknowledge the importance of a Constitution, which must address the emerging fundamentals of a democratic society in the 21st century, such a Constitution should not, on the scale of priorities, outweigh the demands of our people to live a decent life.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: The Zambian people did not vote for the PF on the promise of the Constitution alone, …

Mr Muchima: Ooh!

Mr Malama: Yes!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … but on a whole understanding that we shall uplift their welfare through a holistic implementation of our socioe-conomic programmes.

Hon. Government Member: Social transformation.

Mr Chikwanda: An agenda never seen before.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, this was an unprecedented agenda in the history of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, let us acknowledge the fact that even those of us who champion the Constitution cause here are doing so from a position of privilege and not one of destitution. All of us here, hon. Members on you left and right, are sitting here from a social status of privilege. There are people outside this House, in the constituencies, …

Mr Kalaba: in Lubansenshi.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … who did not have breakfast this morning, do not know what they are going to have for lunch and may not have dinner …

Mr Mucheleka: Because of you.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … as a result of the mismanagement of this country in the past.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, some of us have become professional Members of Parliament because even if our political party may not form Government in 2016, we shall still come back because we shall campaign on the premise that to vote for any other political party is tantamount to ethnic treachery.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, to besiege your authority as Presiding Officer by shouts of, “Constitution!”, because people have been seemingly programmed to do so by their almighty leader, is not the politics of the PF. The PF is a people-centered political organisation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of Justice, just one moment. We have a Motion before us…

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Speaker: … and I am very slow to prescribe prefaces to debates. I earnestly hope that sooner than later, your speech will be directed towards the Motion. I have repeated what the Motion is on several occasions. Maybe, I should not tire. The gist of the Motion is that the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central and the seconder are urging the Government to indicate how the Constitution-making process will move granted that the Draft Constitution prepared by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution is ready for submission. Please, hon. Members, both on left and right, this is as narrow as our business is.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Speaker: Let us keep it as such. This will make our business easy. It is not for me to prescribe what you want to say in preface and so on and so forth. I cannot do that. I can only urge and direct that the Motion be very focused. I can even reduce it to one word and, that is “Roadmap”.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance. Here is my roadmap.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, we have a clear roadmap to deliver a people-driven Constitution, but this shall not be to the detriment of the general welfare of the Zambian people within the context of the programme I have just outlined.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, I stated to this House on 26th February, 2014 that the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has concluded its work. I also stated that I was in the process of consulting His Excellency the President on the date for the handover of the Final Report. On the same day, I also stated that His Excellency the President, in his 2012 Address to this House, made it clear, and the record is there, that upon the Final Report being handed over to him, the post handover roadmap shall be a subject of consultation with all stakeholders. Beyond this, I do not know what other roadmap anybody would ever conceive.

Interruptions

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, if we had proceeded with the questions of clarification, following my ministerial statement on 26th February, 2014, we would have made considerable progress on this matter by now.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: What has held this process back is the anarchy that we saw cultivated in this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: I, therefore, would like to urge the citizens of this country to remain patient …

Mr Muntanga: Question!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: … because we are part of the programme of the Constitution-making process.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Like it has always been, it has been as inclusive as possible. I am sure all of us have participated in the process in one way or the other.

Sir, like Hon. Gary Nkombo said, this is a non-contentious Motion. We have a roadmap and that roadmap …

Hon. Opposition Members: Where is the roadmap?

Mr Kabimba, SC.: I have outlined the roadmap, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kabimba, SC.: So, on account of this roadmap, please, hold your fire …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

He is still speaking.

Mr Kabimba, SC.: Mr Speaker, on the basis of the roadmap that I have outlined, I urge the hon. Members on the left to hold their fire.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, let me say that I am disgusted with what I have heard from …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mwandi, sit down.

Dr Kaingu: It is not me.

Mr Speaker: It is not you, but I think the manner in which you are now proceeding is not right. From the outset, I mentioned that this is a very emotive subject, but let us be civil in the way we approach it. Let us not whip up emotions. Despite what we feel, let us use civil language. Let us try to avoid provoking a situation that will make our debates difficult to manage. These debates can also be enjoyed if they are properly approached.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I will not be decoyed by what I have heard from the hon. Minister of Justice. All the things he has said are enshrined in the Constitution that we want. Poverty levels and the management of our economy are in the Constitution that we want.

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, my debate is three-thronged.

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I want to quote …                    

Mr Speaker: Can you allow the hon. Member for Mwandi to debate.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I said that I would not allow any point of order from 1234 hours to 1255 hours.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I want to quote Immanuel Kant who argued that, “to act in the morally right way, people must act from duty.”

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: Do you want me to debate or not (facing the hon. Opposition Members)?

Mr Muntanga: Go ahead.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwandi, my apology for not stopping your colleagues from disrupting your debate.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, he further argued that, “It was not the consequences of action that make them right or wrong, but the motives of the person who carries out the action.”

Sir, what motivated your good hon. Members of Parliament on your left to behave in the manner that they did …

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: I said three-thronged in case you do not understand English.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Sir, what you have seen from Friday last week had nothing to do with …

Mr Mushanga: Debate the Motion.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwandi, sit down.

I will not stop restraining hon. Members from proceeding in this fashion. Just like I indicated earlier when the hon. Minister of Justice was debating, if we keep to the Motion, which, as I said, could be reduced to one word, “roadmap”, we will save ourselves a lot of these diversions from the Motion.

As long as we divert from the Motion, I am afraid, I will constantly interject and, if I interject constantly, the whole essence of this Motion may be lost. I know that we have prepared texts even from some philosophers whom I have a great deal of respect for because I read, but let us confine ourselves to the Motion. 

If you have these long-winding texts that you have prepared in advance, let us scheme them so that we get down to the issue. There are a few people who have debated so far, and look at our time. Soon, the House will be adjourning sine die on Friday and how much progress would we have made? We would have made very little progress because we are long winding. Others are now using this opportunity to vent their emotions. They have come with some psychological issues, for lack of a better term. Let us focus on the Motion.

Hon. Member for Mwandi, you may proceed.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I debate very innocently.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Dr Kaingu: Sir, what you saw had nothing to do with you, but with the insatiable appetite the hon. Members on your left have for a new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I have been in this House for almost eight years and I know that this House is not run on a roll-call but a quorum. Once a quorum is formed, the Presiding Officer goes ahead with the business. What I know, as I conclude my preamble, is that the only time we ring the bell for all hon. Members to come back to the House is when there is a division.

Dr Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I am afraid I have disallowed points of order.

Dr Kaingu: What I know is that hon. Members can be in the foyer, library, Committee Rooms or even at the bar.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Roadmap.

Dr Kaingu: The hon. Members of this House who were not here …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwandi, sit down.

Do you intend to debate the Motion or not? If you do, immediately you rise, get to the roadmap. If you do not get to the roadmap from the outset, I will ask the next speaker to take the Floor.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I have three vernacular quotations that I want to bring to the attention of the House. One is in Cinyanja and it goes, “Chaona munzako chapita, mawa chilipaliwe.”

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: This means that what has happened to your friend might happen to you as well.

Sir, in Kiswahili, it goes like, “Silo nilo wakasemakeshunimungu.”

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, this quote means, “Today is today, but the one who knows about tomorrow is God.” The final one is in Lingala which goes, “Leloyayo, lobinangai.”

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member for Mwandi continue.

Dr Kaingu: This one means that, “Today, it is you in a particular situation and, tomorrow, it might be the other person.

Mr Speaker, the people who are suffering because of the current Constitution are the MMD. If there is an institution that is suffering today because of the current Constitution, it is the MMD. If the MMD was not as arrogant as the current administration is today, we would still be in office.

Sir, the MMD is suffering because its seats have been nullified because of this Constitution. Our vehicles have been grabbed because of the current Constitution.

Sir, the current elections are riddled with corruption because of the bad Constitution. The MMD is suffering because of the Constitution that it enacted. Therefore, Chaona munzako chapita, mawa chilipaiwe.

Mr Speaker, the question is: Do the people of Zambia want the roadmap for the new Constitution? The answer is, no. The people of Zambia want the Draft Constitution now.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: They do not want the roadmap any more.

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: We need the Draft Constitution now.

Mr Speaker: Address Hon. Nkombo!

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, we want …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I told Hon. Kabimba, SC., that if they are going to give the copies of the Draft Constitution to the President, we also need copies to be brought to the House and this should be done simultaneously.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Sir, as I wind up my debate, I want to challenge the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution because so much has been said by Hon. Kabimba, SC. The Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has been accused of being behind all this issue, and yet it is quiet. I would like to challenge it to come out and say the truth. If the contents of the Draft Constitution will be tempered with, I want to challenge the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution that we are going to stone it.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

I will not permit the hon. Member for Mwandi to threaten violence on the Floor of the House. Could you withdraw that threat?

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I am sorry. I wanted to say that we will stone it with words.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I am challenging members of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution because they have been quiet. They have been accused of not releasing their report and none of them is saying anything. We are going to effect a citizens’ arrest. We know the contents of their report. Therefore, if there is going to be any adulteration to it, we are going to effect …
 
Mr Mwaliteta interjected.

Dr Kaingu: Yes, it was leaked. You do not know? You are the only one who does not know.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, address the Speaker, please.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, as you are aware, my prepared text was disturbed by the powers …

Mr Speaker: Order!

No, hon. Member, I did not disturb, but directed you.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I want to invoke the doctrine of equity in here. On Tuesday and Wednesday, none of us here gave in a full day’s work.

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: I am concluding …

Mr Speaker: If what you are about to say has nothing to do with the roadmap on the Constitution, I am curtailing your debate.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, the people of Zambia no longer want the roadmap.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Then, you are through.

Laughter

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency. The need for the Constitution is non-controversial. In the past, we have had a roadmap that has been costly to the Zambian people as regards the making of the Constitution because the Zambian people have spent a lot of money on this process, but have ended up not having the Constitution. That fact is known by every Zambian in this country, including the PF. Therefore, we are cognisant of the fact that the Zambian people need the roadmap but, most importantly, the new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, that being the case, it goes without saying that, as a democratically-elected Government, we are committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution. Yes, the Motion is well crafted, and I just want to pick the last sentence of this Motion that was ably moved by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central that says, in part:

“… the Report of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has been completed and is ready for submission.”

The call by hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition, civil society and Church has been that they want a new Constitution. The President has been quoted, time and again, on the Floor of this House, as having said that upon receiving the Report of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution, the roadmap would be made in consultation with various stakeholders.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: How then did we expect him to embark on that process when he has not yet received the actual documents for him to begin consulting the stakeholders?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it only takes common sense to see that unless and until you get that which you need to use to dictate certain things, you cannot do anything. For us, the roadmap has always been there. The appointment of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution and District Conferences that were held throughout the country are part of the roadmap.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: The Provincial Consultation Conferences that were held were part of the roadmap.

Ms Kapata: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: The Semantic Groups were part of the roadmap but, most importantly, the National Convention was held as part of the roadmap.

Mr Bwalya: This roadmap has been in the public domain …

Mr Mwaliteta: Yes.

Mr Bwalya: … and every Zambian has been following it.

Ms Kapata: Mm!

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Bwalya: What is it then that is lacking …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Bwalya: … because we have been – in fact, Mr Speaker, a number of us have been part of the roadmap process. We have attended conventions that have been held throughout the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Are we just trying to gain political mileage, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … by demanding the roadmap whose process has been taking place throughout the country?

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mr Bwalya: Let us call upon the civil society and the Church to realise …

Mr Ng’onga: Quality!

Mr Bwalya: … that in everything that a human being does, there is always what is called on-site variation. Even an educated architect with a beautiful plan on paper, when he goes on site to put that plan on a piece of land, will eventually discover certain things that may not support that plan on paper. From that point, he begins to make variations. He will position the house in a place where there are no rocks. It is possible that he had planned that the house will face in a certain direction because there is a mountain or the foundation cannot be dug because there is a rock underneath. These variations are there in any management.

We, in the PF, are committed to ensuring that we deal with the Constitution and deliver it in a manner that is demanded by the people of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, it is a pity that certain people have missed the roadmap and have been swayed …

Mr Mwaliteta: Deliberately.

Mr Bwalya: … by what I may term uncalled for pressure. The truth of the matter is that the Constitution has delayed. Now that it has delayed, what do we need to do, as a people? Can you, the hon. Opposition Members of Parliament from the United Party for National Development (UPND), MMD, the Independent and Agenda for Alliance for Democracy and Development (ADD) come up and ensure that we get this roadmap completed because it is already there. All we need to do is complete the roadmap that has been clearly spelt out.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Where is it?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left and right!

I know he is asking provoking questions, but let us keep quiet.

May the hon. Member continue.

Mr Bwalya: The roadmap can only be completed when the actual report is given to His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata. At that point, we can begin to get jittery and ask where the document is. I want to appeal …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ask who?

Mr Bwalya: … the civil society and …

Interruptions

Mr Bwalya: … Church to allow us to complete the roadmap that has been clearly spelt out.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mr Bwalya: Colleagues in the civil society, we are together in this.

Interruptions

Mr Bwalya: We want a Constitution …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: … that will stand the test of time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: However, I believe, Mr Speaker, there is no Constitution that can stand the test of time because …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Bwalya: … constitutions are dynamic.

Mr Mucheleka: But why?

Mr Bwalya: We live in a dynamic society. So, at some point, it will have to be amended.

Mr Speaker, the roadmap is there. We are only appealing to the civil society …

Mr Speaker: You know when you start repeating, you will run into difficulties with me.

Interruptions

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, I will not repeat but, colleagues, we are in this together.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Bwalya: We are Zambians and we want a Constitution that is good for us. It is that Constitution that will address a number of issues and that the President is committed to coming up with. He has said that on several occasions. So, when you push someone into a corner …

Mr Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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The House adjourned at 1255 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday 11th March, 2014.

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