DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 11th March, 2014

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

UGANDAN PARLIAMENT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH DELEGATION

Mr Speaker: Hon Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery of the Committee on Health from the Parliament of Uganda.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Members of the delegation are:

Hon. Dr Omona Kenneth, Chairperson of the Committee and Leader of the delegation;

Hon. Dr Bayigga Lumune;

Hon. Dr Bitekyerezo Medrad;

Hon. Justine Khainza;

Hon. Jenniffer Nantume Egunyu;

Hon. Dr Twa-Twa Jeremiah; and

Dr Robert Tumukwasibwe, Secretary of the delegation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I wish, on behalf of the National Assembly of Zambia, to receive our guests and warmly welcome them to our midst.

I thank you.

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RULING BY MR SPEAKER

RULING BY THE HON. MR SPEAKER ON THE POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MS M. G. M. M. IMENDA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUENA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, ASKING WHY THE ZAMBIA NATIONAL BROADCASTING CORPORATION (ZNBC) HAS DISCONTINUED LIVE BROADCASTS OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE (PAC)

Mr Speaker: Hon Members will recall that on Thursday, 6th March, 2014, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 410 on the Order Paper, and the hon. Member for Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency, Mr L. C. Bwalya, MP, was asking a follow-up question, the hon. Member for Luena Parliamentary Constituency, Ms M. G. M. M. Imenda, raised the following point of order:

“Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. You will note that sometime at the beginning of the sitting of PAC, our national broadcaster was broadcasting the deliberations of PAC live but, from nowhere, this broadcast has been blacked out of the airwaves.  Prior to that, a bill of K1.2 billion was sent to the National Assembly for the seven days live coverage of the deliberations of PAC.
“Mr Speaker, everybody knows that there are three arms of Government, namely the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary. Every day, we see the covering of the Executive either live or otherwise by the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC).  I am yet to see or be presented with evidence of the bills being issued by the national broadcaster for covering the Executive.  This is very serious.  Is the ZNBC in order to present a bill of K1.2 billion to the National Assembly of Zambia after only seven days coverage, yet it does not send bills to the Executive? Is the national broadcaster only for the Executive or is it for the Government as well, which has three arms?”

In my immediate remarks, I stated that the subject raised by Hon. Imenda required me to study before I could render my ruling on the point of order. I accordingly reserved my ruling. I have since studied the point of order and can now render a ruling.

Hon Members, indeed, as alluded to by Hon. Imenda, in her point of order, part of the mandate of the ZNBC is to highlight the work of the three arms of Government. With respect to the Legislature, this is done through a number of initiatives and interventions, and these include: 

(a)    the live coverage on both radio and television of the ceremonial opening of Parliament;

(b)    the coverage of His Honour the Vice-President’s Question’s Time; and

(c)    generally news coverage of parliamentary sittings and those of the Parliamentary Committees. 

Hon. Members, in the ZNBC’s effort to widen its exposure of the work of the Legislature, it embarked on live broadcasts of the sittings of PAC as a pilot project. In the context of this pilot project, ZNBC communicated the cost of the live broadcasts to the National Assembly as being K1,245,979.20. 

Since the National Assembly had not budgeted for the activity, the National Assembly was unable to make any payment for the cost of such live broadcasts and consequently, the live broadcasts of PAC could not continue.

Hon. Members, you may further wish to note that ZNBC’s Corporate Affairs Department issued a press statement on the matter which in part read as follows:

“During its course, the pilot project reviewed a number of results that need to be studied further in order to determine the effectiveness of this particular programme. A colossal amount of resources were used for the purpose. As a pilot project, and in view of its significance, the project was undertaken, even though there was no budget. The period allocated for this pilot project lapsed on Wednesday 26th February, 2014. This will accord ZNBC an opportunity to get public reactions in terms of perceptions, input, funding, as well as to refine the whole programme concept.” 

Hon. Members, granted these circumstances, the National Assembly cannot compel the ZNBC to conduct live broadcasts of the proceedings of PAC, any other Committee or the proceedings of the House. 

I thank you. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ZAMBIA POLICE FORCE

427. Mr Kapyanga (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Home Affairs: 

(a)    how many youths from Kabwe District were recruited by the Zambia Police Force in 2013, by gender; and 

(b)    whether the police force training syllabus contained modern methods of handling gender-based violence (GBV).

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Speaker, the total number of youths recruited by the Zambia Police Force from Kabwe District in 2013 is sixty-eight, broken down by gender as follows: 
                    
                    Gender                   Number

Female    28

                        Male    40 

Sir, of these, eleven females and nineteen males are at Lilayi Police College while seven females and thirteen males are at the Paramilitary College and ten females and eight males are at Kamfinsa College. 

Mr Speaker, yes, the Zambia Police Force Training Syllabus contains modern methods of handling the GBV. Prominent among them are investigative techniques using forensic laboratories, especially for cases involving murder, assault or rape. Counselling, arrest and prosecuting form the conclusive parts of handling the GBV. 

In this regard, Mr Speaker, we would like to urge leaders to partner with traditional rulers and the Government to fight the scourge of the GBV.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, … 

Mr Mbulakulima: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point or order. As you aware, birds of a feather flock together. 

Sir, when my twin brother, Hon. Namulambe, was raising a point of order, he was thinking like me except for the fact that his point of order was on the Daily Nation while my focus is on The Post.

Mr Speaker, my focus is on the editorial comment of The Post of Friday, 7th March, 2014, with the headline “Punish Unruly MPs.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Who said that? 

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, Clause 87 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia clearly states that:

“The National Assembly and its Members shall have such privileges, powers and immunities as may be prescribed by an Act of Parliament.”  

Sir, further, the National Assembly Members’ Handbook, in Chapter 6, states that:

“Parliamentary privileges relate to the ability of Members and staff to carry out their work without fear of the legal process, intimidation, unchecked disclosure or conveyance of records of the proceedings of the Assembly. Thus, these privileges give due protection and facilitate the operation of the House and Members in their individual capacity, but also makes certain demands on Parliament and, of course, its Members.”  

Mr Speaker, allow me just to read two paragraphs of The Post’s Friday edition. The first paragraph reads:

“The first signs of this Parliament’s indiscipline started when the Motion to remove Rupiah Banda’s presidential immunity so that he could be investigated and prosecuted for corruption and other abuses of office was tabled in the House. The MMD and UPND Members of Parliament opposed this Motion, but knowing that the numbers were not in their favour, they became unruly. What they could not achieve through democratic means, they wanted to get through unruly conduct, but they failed.” 

Sir, the last paragraph reads: 

“What the Opposition Members did deserves to be punished, must be punished. A clear message needs to be sent that no indiscipline will be tolerated. It does not make sense for one to belong to a Parliament he or she does not respect and like. Those who are not willing to respect the Standing Orders must leave. If they are not willing to leave on their own, they must be kicked out.”  

Mr Speaker, these are very serious issues. I want to find out whether this newspaper is in order to order you or influence you as a Speaker who according, to the principles of this House, is supposed act independently and impartially. Is the newspaper in order to give you instructions or to bring this House into disrepute? I need your very serious ruling on this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I expect you to complete your act.

Mr Mbulakulima laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Speaker: Given the fundamental questions raised by the point of order and the need for me to respond in a meaningful and informed manner, I reserve my ruling. The hon. Member for Kabwe Central may continue.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, the rising level of crime shows that our police are overwhelmed. When is the next recruitment exercise going to take place to curb the rising sophisticated crime in this country?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member knows that we are working on another recruitment exercise in the coming year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, the provision of quality training for our men and women in uniform, especially the police, is very cardinal to the enforcement of the law and order in this country. There is a need for us to ensure that our police officers are trained in a modern way. Has Government got any plans to revise the curriculum that is being followed in the police training colleges in the Republic of Zambia? 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, we are constantly revising the curriculum for the police. As a matter of fact, right now, we have sent our Inspector-General of the Zambia Police Force to England where one of the police colleges is exhibiting modern methods of policing. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’onga (Kaputa): Mr Speaker, is the next recruitment going to be decentralised so that the people from rural areas do not have to come to Lusaka or go to provincial centres in order to get recruited?

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, the issue of recruitment has raised a lot of dust. The last recruitment was done at the provincial centres. We are thinking of decentralising further down to the district level so that all the people have an equal chance of being recruited.

I thank you, Sir. 

TRAUMA CENTRE

428. Mr Kapyanga asked the Minister of Health:

(a)    when a trauma centre would be constructed at Kabwe Central Hospital;

(b)    when the tendering process for the construction of the centre would commence; and

(c)    how many staff, in the following categories, were earmarked to be recruited for the centre:

(i)    doctors;

(ii)    nurses; and

(iii)    support staff.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Chilufya): Mr Speaker, the construction of a Trauma Centre at Kabwe General Hospital has commenced with site clearing. The works will take sixteen weeks to complete. 

Sir, the tendering process has been completed. The contract was signed on Wednesday, 19th February, 2014 with a contractor called Workman’s Construction Zambia Limited. The Kabwe General Hospital Trauma Centre will have a full complement of specialist doctors and trauma surgeons as follows:

(a)    four doctors;

(b)    two emergency paramedics;

(c)    twenty-four nurses, broken down into twelve nurses for critical care, six midwives and six theater nurses;

(d)    twelve support staff; and

(e)    five ambulance drivers.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, how much is the total cost for this project?

Dr Chilufya: Mr Speaker, we can provide that information at a later date because it is not part of the questions which we were asked to respond to. 

I thank you, Sir.

EUROBOND

430. Mr Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Transport, Works and Supply and Communication:

(a)    how much of the Eurobond funds allocated to Zambia Railways Limited had been spent to-date;

(b)    what benefits had been achieved from the expenditure; and

(c)    what the time frame for the utilisation of the allocated money was.

The Deputy Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication (Mr M. H. Malama):  Mr Speaker, the total sum of K618.5 million was allocated to the Zambia Railways Limited. As at 31st January, 2014, Zambia Railways Limited spent a total of K225.5 million and committed K111.4 million to signed contracts bringing the total to K366.9 million. 

Mr Speaker, the benefits are:

(a)    purchase of locomotives and wagon spares;

(b)    purchase of infrastructure/track materials;

(c)    purchase of  rolling stock machinery and tools; and

(d)    creation of indirect employment of 3,200 through the thirty-two contractors.

Mr Speaker, by November 2015, all the money will be utilised.

I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that K618.5 million was allocated to Zambia Railways Limited. May he inform the House when he is going to put in place a board so that it can start supervising the management at Zambia Railways Limited.

 Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, we will do that very soon. In fact, the Cabinet Minister is working on that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutale (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, with these works going on at the Zambia Railways Limited, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication if they intend to reduce the heavy trucks on our highways.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, that is exactly what we are trying to achieve.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapyanga: Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that Zambia Railways Limited has no board, I would like to find out the measures which have been put in place to ensure that the money that is being used by the company is accounted for.

Mr M. H. Malama: Mr Speaker, the management of Zambia Railways Limited follows the laid-down procedures on entering into any contracts. The procurement department of the institution is actually in charge of all the procurement at the institution. It ensures that all the procedures are followed so that there is no misuse of the money which has been given to  Zambia Railways Limited.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

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MOTION

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS 

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 20 and 21 (1), if necessary, and Standing Order 101 be suspended to enable the House to  complete all the business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.

Mr Speaker, the current meeting of the House commenced on Tuesday, 11th February, 2014, and as of today, Tuesday, 11th March, the House has been sitting for a total of seventeen days. 

Sir, during this meeting, the House considered a total of 211 questions for oral and written answer. The House also debated a Motion to adopt the Parliamentary Select Committee Report on the ratification of two Supreme Court and five High Court Judges. In addition, ten ministerial statements were presented to the House to explain the Government’s position on various matters of national interest and three annual reports from the Government and quasi-Government institutions were laid on the Table of the House. Further, the House considered and passed three Bills.

Mr Speaker, in the course of the meeting, the House welcomed a new hon. Member for Katuba Parliamentary Constituency following a by-election held on 25th February, 2014.

Sir, although this meeting was relatively short, a lot of business was transacted. I am happy to note that all the tasks that were set before the House have been successfully accomplished. I must congratulate all the hon. Members for a job well done. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Sir, it is important that the House now takes a break to enable all hon. Members to attend to other equally important duties in their constituencies.

Mr Speaker, as the harvest season approaches, it is important that hon. Members use the recess to supplement the Government’s efforts of encouraging small-scale farmers to ensure that all the produce is harvested and safely stored to ensure food security or sold to ensure income security. I must point out here that this year, the Government had some challenges in the distribution of farming inputs. The challenges were mostly overcome or minimised and I am grateful to all stakeholders for their co-operation in this regard. 

Sir, as hon. Members proceed to their constituencies, I wish to urge them to use the recess to assess the damage to infrastructure such as bridges, culverts and schools which may have been affected by heavy rainfall in various parts of the country. The hon. Members should not hesitate to advise the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) in my office of any such disasters.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, let me commend you, the hon. Deputy Speaker and the hon. Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the Whole House most sincerely for the efficient and effective manner in which you presided over the Business of the House. I wish to place on record my gratitude to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the services they continue to render to this House. May I also take this opportunity to express my gratitude towards the hon. Members, hon. Ministers, hon. Deputy Ministers and staff from the Office of the Vice-President and other Government ministries for the support and assistance they provided throughout the meeting.

Mr Speaker, before I wish the House a Happy Easter, I would like to just make an observation that seems to me to be timely. We are almost exactly halfway through our first period in Government, just over two years and five months, and the numbers in this House have changed. Gone are the days when we won Motions by a one vote margin. We have fought between us, twenty by-elections, nineteen of which were not Patriotic Front (PF) seats originally and we only retained one of our own. We took ten seats, nine of them away from the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and one of them away from United Party for National Development (UPND). The UPND took another four seats away from the MMD and each of us … 

Mr Livune: Question!

The Vice-President: Sir, what I am giving are the actual results.  

Interruptions

The Vice-President: Sir, ten hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition are working as Government Ministers. So, the numbers have now changed very radically from a very close situation where as the PF, we had only sixty elected seats and eight nominated seats, and have now moved to well over eighty seats or a clear majority in the House …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Question!

The Vice-President: … in practical terms. I wish to advise my colleagues on that side of the House, to work with us in a co-operative and constructive manner. They should not operate in a combative mode because we have the votes now. In fact, we are closer now to the position where we can change the Constitution unilaterally with two-thirds of the votes without the Opposition being able to block the Motion or bring any impeachment-related issues to the Floor of the House. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Vice-President: I thought that reminder, Mr Speaker, would be appropriate for my colleagues. Happy Easter to you all. 

  I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

The Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Kambwili): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add a word to this important Motion. 

Sir, it is, indeed, true that we need to support this Motion … 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kambwili: … because hon. Members of Parliament need to go back to their constituencies to concentrate on works there. 

Mr Speaker, I want to urge all the hon. Members of Parliament to utilise their constituency offices because it is on record that some of them do not actually do so. 

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, this House has a lot of integrity and has commanded a lot of respect since its establishment. 

Sir, I wish to put on record that this sitting has gone down in history as one with the most unprecedented ways of doing business in the House, whereby hon. Members of Parliament have disrespected the rules of the House with impunity, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … so much so that even those who belong to the Privileges, Absences and Support Services Committee, which is supposed to instill discipline in Parliament, have been part of the indiscipline. 

Sir, I can only appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament …

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Kambwili: … to look at on-coming national issues in an acceptable manner. 

Sir, the idea of people walking out when their questions come up for deliberation is a serious sign of indiscipline and can only …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kambwili: … be perpetrated by people who are irresponsible. 

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, with these few words, I wish to support the Motion. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the Motion to suspend the relevant Standing Orders in order for the House to complete all the business on the Order Paper. 

Sir, one of the reasons we want to adjourn is to go back to our constituencies and explain to our people what the Government is doing in …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, my point of order is very compelling.  

Sir, denial of responsibility is denial of authority. Being principled is an important thing. Bearing this in mind, I walked out on Thursday, in order to press the Government to release the Draft Constitution. However, I was paid my allowance in full for that particular day. I represent the people who sent me here in a principled manner. I am going to lay on the Table the allowance which was paid to me and the water that I drunk on Thursday. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo left his seat to lay the allowance and water on the Table. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, before you leave your seat, …

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Just maintain your seat. 

Hon. Member, those issues that you want to display to the public are matters which I know about by virtue of my position. They are not controversial matters. You do not even need to lay any evidence on the Table. You do not have to give me any evidence of those who have been claiming allowances. 

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Speaker: No, let me finish. 

You do not have to give me that evidence because I already have it. I have the evidence for every hon. Member who makes a claim. You do not have to bring it here. I made a ruling on this subject and I have evidence on it. This is the way the system works. However, this is not the issue. The issue is what is your point of order? 

Mr Mutelo: Thank you, Sir. 

Sir, is this hon. Member of Parliament, Mr Misheck Mutelo, in order, after you gave your ruling on Wednesday, 5th March, 2014, that you would need to research as to who walked out of the House because of the Constitution, to have still received an allowance and drank the water which is provided to hon. Members. 

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: Sir, is he really in order? I want to lay on the Table the allowance which I got and the water which I drank so that I become a Member of Parliament who respects the rules of the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: My ruling is short. 

I know that the hon. Member is a very humorous person but, quite frankly and on a serious note, I find his point of order to be absolutely incoherent. It is very difficult to make a ruling on a subject that is incoherent. It is not even in sync with the events of the last ten days or so. I did not penalise anybody for standing in front of me and making those choruses. I did not punish anybody for that in case you are mistaken that I did so. 

Mr Miyanda: What are you saying?

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: I am saying this in the context of the allowances and not the gross disorder. That is a separate subject which will be dealt with separately at an appropriate juncture. I am restricting myself to the question of allowances because the hon. Member wants to bring his allowance to the Table.   

My issue on allowances is that it is not morally justifiable for an hon. Member to claim an allowance when business was abandoned, especially those who had put forward Questions for Oral Answer. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That was my ruling and the record is very clear. 

This issue again, like the gross disorder, will be dealt with separately. I must state to the House that I know how tempting it is to reopen wounds, but there is a very specific Motion here which we are looking at which has been moved by His Honour the Vice-President. I am addressing the House as a whole because I am giving directions for future debate. I will not allow those who are going back to those unfortunate events to debate. Both my left and right must be very clear about this. 

  The Motion which has been moved by His Honour the Vice-President is very specific. If there is nothing more to say, let us move on. We have another important Motion. I said that I am ready for an overnight sitting. We can debate the other Motion overnight, especially after we have suspended Standing Orders 20 and 21(1). However, there is still a need for us to be efficient, diligent and earnest in our business. Hon. Member for Lukulu West, there is limited space for humor today.

Hon. Members, bear in mind that there is a Motion which we should debate in the context and the spirit in which His Honour the Vice-President has presented it. This is a very simple Motion, but we always want to make it controversial. 

May the hon. Member for Chipili continue.  

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the Motion on the Floor of the House is not controversial. It is for this reason that I said that I am supporting it.

Mr Speaker, what I am trying to say is that we are going to adjourn so that we can go and talk to our people especially those of us who represent rural constituencies on the projects that the PF Government is implementing.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, we want to go to our constituencies to check on how far the projects such as the works on the Mansa/Luwingu Road, the construction of 650 health posts and other projects like Mwenda Secondary School have gone. We want to go and check on the progress of these projects so that when we come, back we will be able to go to the offices of our hon. Ministers and report progress.

Mr Speaker, there are many projects and issues that we are going to discuss, including the issues to do with the Constitution. There is no doubt that we are going to talk about it. We will explain the roadmap so that the people understand it because some of them think that it is not there.

Mr Speaker, we will explain to our constituents that the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution will submit the report…

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am compelled to rise on a point of order as a Whip for my party and one of those who are charged with the responsibility to assist you to run the affairs of House.

Mr Speaker: All the time!  

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we have a Motion in place, which His Honour the Vice-President has ably, moved which refers to the suspension of  Standing Orders 20 and 21(1)  in order for this House to continue sitting until it concludes the business which is on the Order Paper.

Sir, soon after that, we have another Motion that I raised to deal with. I know that sometimes it is difficult for us to debate matters in this House because we have different comprehension levels.

Sir, in one of your rulings, you said that our debates must be relevant to the business on the Floor of the House. Is the hon. Member for Chipili, a brother and friend who knows very well unless he did not read the Order Paper, in order to pre-empt what we are supposed to debate when the appointed time comes to deal with the roadmap of the Constitution-making process in this country? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Member for Chipili started off very well. He was in synergy with His Honour, the Vice-President although I also got anxious when, in some way, he started moving away from the Motion which is before us. I think it is my task to give direction. Even though I earlier on gave some direction, I think I still need to reiterate my direction. Let us keep the events of last week behind us because there will be dealt with in due course and appropriately so. 

We have a Motion ahead of us. Therefore, let us reserve our energies for an appropriate time. I will allow for as much debate as possible. The Motion which His Honour the Vice-President has presented to us is very straightforward. I am saying this for the umpteenth time. In fact, the more guidance I give, the more time is being wasted unnecessarily. I am trying to avoid being dictatorial. I hope that we can reason on this issue. 

Hon Mwila, you can continue.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, much obliged. I would like to support the Motion on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the two debaters who have debated the Motion which is on the Floor of the House. I forgot to mention earlier that I look forward to seeing the youths of the Opposition parties marching with us tomorrow to celebrate the Youth Day and the country’s 50th Anniversary at the same time.

Sir, I was told that on Saturday, women from the Opposition joined us in celebrations to commemorate the International Women’s Day but, personally, I did not notice them. They are welcome to tomorrow’s celebrations and I shall personally greet them.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!  

Question put and agreed to.

_________{mospagebreak}

BILL

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Business Regulatory Bill

_________

MOTION

ROADMAP FOR THE ENACTMENT OF A NEW CONSTITUTION

(Debate resumed)

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, before the hon. Member for Lupososhi continues, I want to seize this opportunity just to remind you that we have a very laconic Motion. This has been comprehensively stated by the mover in particular and seconded very concisely and precisely. I think the mover’s objective in raising the Motion is crystal clear. 

I, therefore, expect all those who would like to volunteer to debate this Motion to be relevant and avoid repetition because our own rules of debate refrain us from being irrelevant. There was a lot of irrelevant debate last week. For instance, there were threats of stoning the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution with words.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I took that threat quite seriously because in our society, sometimes we have the capacity to transform even things that we do not expect into missiles. That is, however, on a light note.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I expect that we will be relevant and there will be no repetition. If we proceed in that fashion, I do not expect unnecessary points of order. There is a tendency for some hon. Members to want to debate through points of order. Please, let us refrain from doing that. We have more than ample time to debate this Motion. This is our last item on the Order Paper and as it were, His Honour the Vice-President’s Motion has been upheld. Therefore, the Standing Orders have been suspended and we can proceed indefinitely. However, regardless of that, let us be relevant and avoid repetition.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, thank you for, once again, giving me an opportunity to contribute to the Motion that is quite precise, for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency.

Mr Speaker, the roadmap on the Constitution-making process was clearly outlined in my last debate. I just want to add that we all know this roadmap. Indeed, we attended various provincial conferences that were held and had our input into the Draft Constitution. Moving this Motion is pushing an open door. We have provided a roadmap and made it necessary for the Zambian people to be part and parcel of the enactment of a new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, the easiest thing that anyone can do is to deliver a new Constitution. However, what is critical is the analysis and in-depth interrogation of the clauses that are provided for in the new Constitution that is being demanded. It is also true that within the roadmap that I elaborated, the participation of the civil society and churches was also included. So this roadmap brought on board a number of people. 

Mr Speaker, as the Motion states, we are at a stage where the Draft Constitution is ready to be handed over to His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata. Once he receives it, that particular document will inform us the next step to be taken, which is to consult the relevant stakeholders on the way forward. Whether that will include the …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, with due respect to my colleague and friend, Hon. Bwalya, I note that in his immediate past submission, he has revealed to this House that this document will guide us which way to go, as though suggesting that he has read it and knows its contents and that inside of it will be a direction of which way to go. Is he, therefore, in order to proceed in that manner as though he has actually seen the document, when most of us are demanding sight of that same document?

Mr Speaker: These are the kinds of points of order I would like to discourage because they are in the form of a debate. I know the predicament which the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central finds himself in procedurally. However, if he wants to canvass that kind of line of debate, I am sure he can invite or suggest to one of his colleagues to take up that task. However, if we proceed with points of order of that nature, this debate will not be done coherently and will be laced with a lot of unnecessary interjections. 

Please, make notes as the debates continue so that when your time comes, you can address some of these issues and make your challenges and contests in the form of a debate and not points of order. We have said time and again, points of order are meant for procedure. I was also just trying to figure out his line of thought as the hon. Member for Lupososhi was developing his debate. Nonetheless, to try to begin making assumptions through a point of order about his line of thought, whether it is X or Y and so on and so forth before he even clarifies, will lead us to not having a smooth debate. Let us have a smooth debate. 

The Zambian people have been anxiously waiting for this Motion. They are looking forward to this Motion and as their representatives, they want to see how you will proceed with what has been a very controversial and topical issue in the last virtually ten or so days. So, let us give each other an opportunity to debate freely and without interference. If you do not agree with your colleague one way or the other or you have some comments, please, at an appropriate juncture, stand up and you will be heard.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, the way forward regarding the Draft Constitution has been talked about in the press and on the Floor of this House several times. The President has categorically stated that upon receiving the final Draft Constitution, he will be able to engage various stakeholders. It is on that premise that I was trying to make a point.

Mr Speaker, like I said, without interrogating what is contained in the Draft Constitution, it is very difficult to know exactly which way to go. I had sight of the First Draft Constitution that was produced and there were a number of clauses that required careful analysis and in-depth interrogation. One of those clauses is on the Bill of Rights. There were provisions to the effect that minority interests must be respected and accepted in Zambia. When you look at that particular provision, it looks very innocent, but when you go seriously into it, you will agree that we will end up having to introduce certain vices that we have been against. So, there is a need for us to be very serious and cautious when looking at the clauses contained in the First Draft Constitution. I do not know what is in the final draft.

Mr Speaker, we agree that the people of Zambia need a people-driven Constitution. There is no doubt about that. We also agree that the earlier we deliver a people-driven Constitution, the better for all of us. That can only be done when we work to together. We all need to ensure that the roadmap is followed …

Mr Mwila: And collectively.

Mr Bwalya: … effectively, correctly and efficiently so that we are not held to account negatively by our own children whom we are trying to serve today by way of bringing about a good Constitution.

Mr Speaker, a careful analysis of the roadmap requires a sober mind. We do not need to antagonise each other. We all need to work together in ensuring that the roadmap is followed.

Mr Livune: Question! 

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, we can ask so many questions on the need to have the roadmap followed. However, like Hon. Dr Kaingu said, we do not need the roadmap.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Sir, what the people of Zambia need is a Constitution. They need a Constitution that will drive this country forward. They need a Constitution that …

Dr Kaingu: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: But that is what he said.

Mr Speaker: Maybe, he is raising a different point of order.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, as you can see, … 

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: … I am a humble man.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Sir, this afternoon, I have been attacked twice …

Mr Mwaliteta: By who?

Mr Speaker: Get to your point of order.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I cannot even respond to one of those who has attacked me.

Mr Muntanga laughed.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I am seeing a situation whereby the Executive seems to be going to town to tear us into pieces as the Opposition. Usually, the advice to them comes very late when the horses have …

Mr Kampyongo: Ba Vice-President!

Mr Speaker: What is your point of order?

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I just need to be guided.

Mr M. H. Malama: He is just too irrelevant.

Dr Kaingu: I just want to be guided, Sir. Should we, in the Opposition debate, like we have policies to protect? It is almost clear now …

Mr M. H. Malama: You are being irrelevant. 

Mr Mwaliteta: That is irrelevant.

Dr Kaingu: Do you want to sit in the position of the Speaker or what?

Mr Speaker: No, they cannot.

Dr Kaingu: Yes, Sir, they cannot do that.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Dr Kaingu ...

Dr Kaingu: I was quiet, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Dr Kaingu, please, get to the point. You raised a point of order on the Hon. Member for Lupososhi. Thus, do not be long and winding. Do not meander away from the Hon. Member for Lupososhi’s debate because that is why you raised the point of order.

Dr Kaingu: Yes, Sir. 

Sir, I want to quote what the State President said. He said that, “ Parley means to speak.”

Mr Kambwili: Aba nabo.

Dr Kaingu: We have come here, Sir, to speak.

Mr M. H. Malama: A vice-president who is irrelevant.

Mr Speaker: As much as the President said parley means to speak, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … the Speaker also says when you speak, you must be relevant.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That is the Speaker’s position.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Speaker: Your debate must be relevant. Quite frankly, you have spent a few minutes talking without my seeing where your point of order is going.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, we have suspended the Standing Orders …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: We have not suspended the orders on irrelevancy. Only the orders related to the time for this sitting.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, it really depends on what relevancy you are looking for.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mwandi, sit down.

Hon. Member for Lupososhi, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, as I wind up, it is very clear that the Constitution and the roadmap demanded should not be used to gain political mileage.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Bwalya: Sir, we should all work together to deliver a people-driven Constitution. 

Mr Speaker, let me also say something to all of us. When the people of Zambia are talking, we need to listen to what they are saying. We need to carefully analyse the demands of the people. At the end of the day, we are there to provide for them. 

Sir, we all know that the delivery of the delivery of a people-driven Constitution is a mammoth task. Going for a referendum will require a huge budgetary provision because we shall need to go for a census, voters’ registration and actual voting will have to take place. We all agree that going for a referendum can be such a mammoth task. The people of Zambia must brace themselves for the costs involved in undertaking a referendum should we need one.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Motion that was ably moved by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central and also ably seconded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chembe.

Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to pay glowing tribute to the Zambian Watchdog.

Mr Mwila: Ah!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The Zambian Watchdog, Mr Speaker, brought out the contents of the Draft Constitution that is now in public domain.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I would also like to thank the people of Zambia for consistently demanding for a people-driven Constitution for more than thirty years now. I also want to thank the members of the PF Government for confessing that they are clueless …

Mr Miyanda: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... about what it means to be in Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to rise on this serious point of order.

Mr Speaker, the Motion on the Floor, as we see it from this side, is very important. Is the hon. Member, a learned counsel, in order to start citing a report from a very unreliable source, …

Mr Shakafuswa: Use English

Mr Kampyongo: … whose authenticity is extremely doubtful?

Mr M. H. Malama: Bebe!

Mr Kampyongo: Is Hon. Mwiimbu in order to come to this Assembly Chamber and cite a report which cannot be verified? I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I will repeat what I said earlier on. There will be contests and challenges in this debate. Not all that will be said will be the gospel truth. As Speaker, really, it is not for me to begin to discern the correctness of everything which is said on the Floor of the House. Sometimes, I simply do not have the means or capacity to discern what is true or false. Again, I want to emphasise or repeat what I said earlier. If you have a contest over a certain issue, as the debate ensues, make notes.

I will give time to both the left and the right to debate. However, if we continue at the rate at which we are going, with this spate of points of order, this will be an entirely interrupted proceeding and nobody will benefit from it. You see, I am being tempted to issue a decree on points of order for purposes of this debate. If there will be no restraint on your part, I am going to issue it. I am sure you can conjecture what kind of decree that will be.

The hon. Member for Monze Central may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, for the benefit of the hon. Member of Parliament for …

Mr Speaker: No, do not engage him. I have already made a ruling. Just continue with your debate.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was paying glowing tribute to the Zambian Watchdog for having released the Draft Constitution unofficially to the nation. As a result of that release, the Government has commissioned an inquiry to find out who released the document. The Draft Constitution is in public domain because it has been released by the Zambian Watchdog.

Mr Speaker, before I delve into my main issues, I also want to state that what is obtaining currently, pertaining to the debate on the Constitution, is unfortunate. It reminds me of the Third Term Debate whereby individuals were used to champion that cause. In this instance, I would like to remind this House that there is an orchestrated campaign to discredit the Constitution- making process in this country by using our traditional leaders to raise issues that are not tenable.

Mr Speaker, our traditional leaders have been made to understand that land has never been vested in the President.  The current Constitution, Mr Speaker, vests all the land in the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Monze Central, you are known to be focused and, generally, all lawyers are known to be focused. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I said generally.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Mazabuka Central has presented a very concise Motion. Please, let us move into the Motion. I know that there are a lot of things that are happening around this process, but those are not necessarily our concern. Our concern is the Motion. Let us keep this Motion in mind. Look, I am not enjoying these interjections. There is a precise Motion here. Let us address it.

The hon. Member for Monze Central may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, this is exactly what I am doing. I am stating that there are people who want to derail the process.

Mr Shakafuswa: Yes!

 Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, the process leads to the roadmap and the roadmap leads to the enactment of the Constitution. 

Mr Shakafuswa: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, what I am saying is that there is a cartel which is going round the country influencing some traditional leaders so that they can rise against this Constitution-making process …

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member on the right, do not interject.

Mr Mwiimbu: … so that the people of this country do not have a new Constitution. They are misleading our traditional leaders that there has never been a clause in the Constitution that vests land in the President. The truth of the matter is that the current Constitution vests all the land in the President and the Draft Constitution still vests all the land in Zambia in the President. So, the issue that is being raised by our traditional leaders is a non-issue …

Mr Shakafuswa: It is irrelevant.

Mr Mwiimbu: … and should not be seen to be derailing the process.

Mr Sichone: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Ng’onga: What is your problem. We also have a right.

Mr Sichone: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to continue to defy your ruling and debate in the manner that he is debating by insinuating that there is a cartel which wants to derail the Constitution-making process, when the Motion on the Floor is basically one which seeks to urge the Government to provide a roadmap?

Mr Sikazwe: Which roadmap is already there.

Mr Sichone: The issues that he is debating are generally not part of the roadmap.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichone: Mr Speaker, is he in order to continue to debate in that manner?

Mr Kambwili: Naukula, mwaice!

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: It is now time for me to intervene. My concern with the preface by the hon. Member for Monze Central, especially his immediate previous debate, is that he is addressing the content. He is clearly addressing the content. I am part of this society and have been following the press reports and headlines, and I know what he is talking about. I am also aware about the provisions of the Lands Act and the issues which the hon. Member for Monze Central is raising. They are touching on the content.

Let me say this, here, we are dealing with the process. There is a dichotomy between process and content. Let us deal with the process. This Motion is about the process. It is not about the content.

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Speaker: No, you cannot speak, hon. Member for Kalomo Central. 

Hon. Member for Monze Central, focus on the process.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I thank you for the guidance. What I understand is that you cannot debate the process without content. Sir, I am trying to justify …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. When the previous Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi debated and referred to the Bill of Rights when he said that we should have interest in the rights of minority groups, he was talking about the contents of the Constitution, but was not guided. I think that we should have balanced guidance for both sides.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

 I allowed the hon. Member for Lupososhi to continue talking about Article 79 because if you read it, hon. Member for Katuba, you will note that it has serious implications on the process. 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I do not want to begin lecturing on Article 79, but I will do this, in order for us to make progress, there will be no points of order.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the members of the public and the civil society that I represent in this House have been urging hon. Members of Parliament not only to protect the process, but also the content. The process protects the content.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, Hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as I stand here, I would like to demonstrate to you and the nation why the people of Zambia need a roadmap and why they needed a good Constitution yesterday. For me to do that, I will have to raise certain issues which are in public domain.

Mr Speaker, as I proceed, I would like to refer to an article that was written by Mr George Chellah and Mr Speedwell Mapushi, on Saturday, 10th March, 2007, that came out in The Post newspaper. The headline for this article was “New Constitution before 2011, but Levy not listening because he is medically impaired.” 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, for ease of reference, I would like to read and quote this article in order for all of us to understand the import …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

May I have order on the right.

Mr Mwaliteta interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am aware that conductors at a bus station …

Mr Speaker: Order!

No, hon. Member for Monze Central, you cannot go that direction.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am going to quote from an article by Mr Speedwell Mapushi and Mr George Chellah, who is now the Special Advisor to the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Special Assistant!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the article reads:

 “Patriotic Front President, Michael Sata has vowed that a new republican Constitution will be in place before 2011 whether Levy Mwanawasa likes it or not. And Sata said President Mwanawasa should deal with Local Government and Housing Minister Sylvia Masebo’s thuggish conduct if he wants the PF councils countrywide to operate. Reacting to President Mwanawasa’s statement that he had been denied a chance to write a new Constitution, and that some people were preoccupied with demonstrations against the Government, Sata said the PF will continue to mount pressure on the Government until Zambians get a Constitution before 2011. And he said, ‘the fact is, there will be a Constitution before 2011 whether Levy likes it or not,’ Sata said. ‘Zambia needs a sane person who will listen to us and what we are saying. Levy cannot do that because he is medically impaired. He just wants to continue stealing votes,’ referring to Mwanawasa. ‘He is scared that once he does that, he will not leave the MMD in power. I am a victim of a defective Constitution. So, we have to sensitise Zambians on this issue,’ Sata said. ‘We are just demanding for what belongs to us and we are going to get what belongs to us.’”

Mr Speaker, those were the statements of His Excellency the President. Today, the statements have changed. The President is saying that our Constitution is one of the best. He believes that all we need to do is to make amendments to it. Contrary to what the President told us, His Honour the Vice-President has informed this House that it will be too costly to have a referendum …

Mr Livune: Kabimba says they are ignorant.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, President Sata told us that there will be a new Constitution …

Mr Livune: Kabimba said they are ignorant.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Katombola, watch yourself.

Mr Mwiimbu: … through a referendum, but …

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, Hon. Kambwili is insulting.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Monze Central, even if you wanted to raise a complaint, I am sure you know better how to do it. You are a very senior hon. Member of Parliament. I am sure that you know the process which should be followed when raising a complaint.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I do.

Mr Speaker, I was saying that at a bus stop, people just make noise without reasoning. What I am saying is that there are contradictory statements that are being made to the people of this country pertaining to the Constitution-making process. His Honour the Vice-President is saying that undertaking a referendum is too costly, whereas His Excellency is saying that we are going to have one. We are urging the Government to be very clear on the issue of the roadmap for the Constitution-making process. 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice was on the Floor of this House last Friday, and as far as we are concerned, he gave the Government’s position on this issue. He even indicated that Zambians do not eat the Constitution. As far as I am concerned, as a Zambian and as a Member of this Parliament and of the public, I shall eat the Constitution in the morning, at lunch and in the evening …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … because it is the edifice or framework for protecting the rights of every Zambian. It can put food on the table. That is why the people of Zambia are demanding for a new Constitution.

Mr Mwaliteta interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Mwaliteta, …
 
Hon. Opposition Member: Chase him.

Mr Speaker: Order!

You are an hon. Deputy Minister.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, last Saturday, I attended Women’s Day Celebrations. The women of this country, our mothers, have been fighting a battle to liberate themselves. They have been trying to liberate themselves because the current Constitution is discriminatory against women. That is one reason why they need a roadmap for a new Constitution which can protect their rights. Tomorrow, our youths are supposed to celebrate Youth Day. They are demanding for the roadmap for a new Constitution so that their rights can be protected. I know that elders like His Honour the Vice-President are also fighting for their rights so that when they retire, the State will look after them. That is why they also need a new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, our councillors countrywide have been agitating for a new Constitution. They have been looking forward to a roadmap that will ensure that they are recognised in this country as partners in development. Right now, they are being ignored. That is why they are agitating for a new Constitution. 

Mr Speaker, I heard the hon. Member for Lupososhi say that there is already a roadmap. I challenge any hon. Member of the Government as we debate today, to lay the roadmap on the Table so that all of us can have copies which we can take to our constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, there is no roadmap which any hon. Member from the Government side can lay on the Table. It does not exist. It exists in the figment of their minds …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Monze Central, the essence of the Motion is to urge the right to indicate the roadmap. That is the essence, and to expedite the process of enacting a new Constitution. That is the Motion. I do not think that we should be presumptuous at this stage, and make conclusions. Why do I say so? It is because I am going to give an opportunity to the right to respond. I know that you may want to politic over this, but in order to have an orderly and logical debate, let us bear in mind that at the end of the day, those from the Executive side are going to speak for themselves. If at the end of the day, there is no roadmap provided, you will be justified to make your own conclusions. However, I think that it would be inappropriate now to make those conclusions. You are urging them to do something, and you do not know what they are going to come up with yet.

You may continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was responding to the statement that was made by the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi that there is a roadmap pertaining to this process. That is why I am challenging those from the Executive to lay the roadmap on the Table as they respond to our debates. That is what I am saying. 

Sir, I am also responding to the statements that have been consistently made by the hon. Minister of Justice that they have a roadmap pertaining to the Constitution-making process. I am appealing to the Government that as we rise today, it provides a roadmap to the hon. Members on your left so that we tell our people not to worry because there is a plan in place for the Constitution-making process. 

Mr Speaker, if there was a roadmap, I doubt in my mind that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central would have moved this Motion. It is unfortunate that immediately the hon. Minister of Justice made a statement, he left the country, and yet he is the driver of this process. I have no doubt that there is nobody from your right side who is going to contradict what he said regarding the Constitution-making process. In one interview, the hon. Minister of Justice and His Honour the Vice-President stated that the PF Government was not going to be pushed in the process of enacting a new Constitution. That is why we are urging them to come up with a roadmap.

Sir, the people of Zambia need to know the roadmap for the Constitution-making process. The way we used to agitate for a new Constitution together with PF is the same way we are going to do so with the MMD …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and other interested members of the public.

Mr Speaker, this document is for all of us, including the members of the public. We are here in our representative capacity to speak for those who do not have the privilege of being in this House.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Shakafuswa: And who sent us here!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Katuba, just listen quietly. 

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Everybody has been sent here.

Laughter 

Mr Shakafuswa: Sobenechishi!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, our colleagues on the right should honour public pledges. They have a propensity of refusing to honour the pledges that they make to the public. We hope, for once, that they will live by the ten commandments …

Hon. Government Members: Aah! You!

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … which they have been preaching …

Mr Muntanga: Dangerously!

Mr Mwiimbu: … and ensure that they give us a Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I am also happy to note that the Zambians have heard from the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution. The Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution, in their documents, has said that never again, shall we have nominated hon. Members of Parliament. According to the Draft Constitution, never again shall this Parliament be colonised by the Executive.

Mr Shakafuswa: That is what they are scared of.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, when we have a new Constitution, this Parliament will be a very independent Parliament. Only genuine hon. Members of Parliament will come and represent the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, never again shall we have counterfeit hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

No points of order.

Hon. Member for Monze Central, I am sure that you have started talking about the content again. You will agree with me.

Mr Mwiimbu: I want to wind up.

Mr Speaker: Even if you are winding up, you have transgressed our rules of debate. You have gone into content.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]{mospagebreak}

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

HIS EXCELLENCY DR KENNETH DAVID KAUNDA’S BIRTHDAY CELEBRATIONS

Mr Speaker: Before we resume the debate, I would like to intercept this with an announcement which I should have made earlier on, but granted that this is our last day, there is no other opportunity.

Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that as part of the activities to commemorate the Ninetieth Birthday Celebrations for His Excellency Dr Kenneth David Kaunda, which as you know, falls on 28th April every year, it has become necessary as part of the activities to arrange a football match between diplomats and the hon. Members of Parliament.

Other activities planned in commemoration of the birthday include a musical concert, another football match either between local soccer giants or the Copperbelt Select Side versus the Midlands Select Side. The football games and concert will be also held as part of the commemoration of the fifty years of Independence in general, and His Excellence Dr Kaunda’s Ninetieth Birthday, in particular. 

I am sure you will agree that Dr Kaunda, as a founding father of the nation, played a pivotal role in the liberation of our Independence. It is, therefore, befitting to hold these activities in his honour as we also celebrate Zambia’s Fiftieth Independence Anniversary.

The games will be played on 19th April, 2014. However, since the House will be on recess during this period, I would urge hon. Members, those who can, to take keen interest and avail themselves for this important event.

 Hon. Kampyongo has been designated the role of captain for the team and the rest of the hon. Members are urged to render their support to their colleagues on this important date. 

I thank you.

_________

Mr Speaker: When business was suspended, the House was considering the Motion moved by the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central that this House urges the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of the new Constitution and also to expedite the process considering that the work of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has been completed and is ready for submission and the hon. Member for Monze Central was about to conclude his debate. 

However, before the hon. Member continues, I would like to urge him to withdraw the expression ‘counterfeit hon. Members of Parliament’. There are only hon. Members of Parliament who are elected to sit in this House. This is a totally unknown epithet in our parliamentary language. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to replace the word ‘counterfeit’ with ‘those who swim across and survive by court injunctions’. 

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to paraphrase His Excellency the President’s statement of 10 March, 2007 by stating that whether President Sata likes it or not, we shall have a new Constitution before 2016. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, further, I would like to say that we are just demanding for what belongs to us …

Mr Livune: That’s right.

Mr Mwiimbu: … and we are going to get what we want. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, finally, let me join you in talking about the celebrations for the country’s 50th anniversary of its Independence, by stating that the best gift to this country would be a new Constitution. Without that, there will be no need, interest or happiness as we celebrate the anniversary. 

With those few remarks, Sir, I would like to thank you most sincerely and support the Motion. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, to start with, I want to congratulate the recently- elected Member of Parliament for Katuba, Hon. Shakafuswa. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, as you have seen for yourself, this is no ordinary Member of Parliament. He is a bull. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Bull!

Mr Livune: That is right

Mr Muntanga: Chamene icho.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I am also delighted by his coming to Parliament because it is a clear victory for the Opposition. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, before he came here, the vote for the representative of Katuba Constituency in this House was normally that side (pointing at the hon. Government Members).

Hon. Opposition Member: We have stolen. 

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, with the coming of Hon. Shakafuswa, the vote for Katuba Constituency will be on the side of the Opposition.  

Mr Livune: That is right.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: No compromise. 

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, for that side, it is minus one and for this side, it is plus one. The equation balances. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Look at you. 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, let me now come to the Motion on the Floor. I want to state from the outset that I support this Motion.

Mr Livune: That is right.

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, I support this Motion because I want the roadmap to the Constitution to be delivered to us. Most importantly, we want the new Constitution to be in place before the 2016 elections. 

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, that is what we are looking for. That is what we are motivating this Government to do.

Mr Speaker, I support this Motion because the people from every corner of Zambia worked very hard to put the Draft Constitution together. They gathered, discussed and made recommendations. The small task that remains to be done is for the Government to deliver the Constitution to the people of Zambia.

Sir, while everybody was busy working on the Draft Constitution, and I know you were one of them, our colleagues in the Government were busy relaxing and indulging in the fantasies of producing a Constitution within ninety days. Maybe, that is why they do not feel so much for it, because while we were working it, they were relaxing. 

Mr Mbulakulima interjected. 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia are more than the people in the PF and they need this Constitution. 

Sir, the people of Zambia met, discussed and very clearly saw the number of inadequacies in the current Constitution. They took advantage of the opportunity that was given to them to address issues that were troubling them. In summary, without going into content, the people of Zambia were unhappy about the fact that hon. Members can cross the Floor anytime, create by-elections and, therefore, divert money from other development initiatives. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, as we have seen in this particular Parliament, this has become very bad.

Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia said they do not like a minority President … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … and so they made recommendations to deal with that problem. The people of Zambia said they were not happy about the way certain groups are represented …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, take a seat. 

Dr Musokotwane resumed his seat. 

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: I do not know how I am failing to come through, but I will try again. There are a lot of issues in the Constitution. I have read one of the earlier drafts. We can spend a lot of time dissecting that Constitution even on the basis of the initial drafts that were released because I am not privy to the latest one by any means. 

However, let me stress that it will not do to go into the content. I know we are trying to make very tenuous connections between the content and process, but it will still not do. I credited the mover of the Motion for being precise. If you go back to his statement, you will notice that he simply focused on the process. He could have gone into content as well if he desired, but that was not his objective. If you look at the Motion before us, you will notice that it is equally concise. The problem I see here is that we have prepared texts which are taking us into content. 

I will not permit any debates regarding the content. I will not stop interjecting, anyway, because I have prevented everybody else from raising points of order so the only person who can bring this debate to order is me. I am afraid I will have to constantly do this. The Motion is very concise. You want to elicit the way forward from your colleagues on the right. That is what you want to do. It is as narrow as that. If you are going to talk about the Bill of Rights, women’s rights, children’s rights, land rights, powers of the Executive, powers of the President, position of the Attorney-General, independence of the Judges and the Public Service Commission, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Allowance!

Mr Speaker: … I will not allow you to continue with your debate. The reason I will not allow you to do so is that it is not part of the remit of the Motion. I mentioned earlier on that one of our own rules of debate is relevance. If you want to talk about women’s rights, land rights, the Local Government Service Commission and the preamble, I will not permit you to continue with your debate because what you would be saying would be irrelevant to the Motion. The Motion is on the roadmap. The Motion is in the text. 

The hon. Member for Liuwa may continue.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, thank you for your counsel and I hear you. Of course, I am constrained and since you are the boss, I will follow what you have said.  

Mr Speaker, I was merely trying to highlight the importance of the Constitution by indicating some of the critical issues that are contained therein and why people are so preoccupied and anxious to have the roadmap. People cannot be anxious unless there is something that is biting them. That is all I was trying to say.  

Mr Speaker, the point I want to raise is that a lot of issues that are troubling the people of Zambia are issues that were championed by the PF before it came into power. If the issues that are contained in the Constitution were of concern to the PF before it came into power, they should still be of concern even now when it is in Government. We know that when the PF came into Government, it initiated the process of getting the Constitution re-written and produced for the people of Zambia. If both sides of the House have a common interest of the Constitution and if the Government has put in place a mechanism to make the process forward, why is there agitation regarding the roadmap? Why is there agitation between the churches and the Executive regarding the roadmap? The answer is very simple. Society does not see the Government as being trustworthy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, society cannot take the Government’s word seriously. It is very skeptical. 

Mr Speaker, please, permit me to build up my case on why people think the Government is not trustworthy. 

Mr Mbulakulima: This is Parliament. Talk!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, let me go a little bit to history. Let me quote an article that was written by a gentleman called Bright Mwape in The Post newspaper of 7th August, 1996. It reads:   

“I have often been warned by friends that my perception of Sata needed to be reviewed. Sata, I have been told, is not a person whose words you can take on anything.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, there was an editorial in The Post newspaper of 20th April, 1998, which stated:  

“As Chief Justice, Mathew Ngulube once remarked, Minister without Portfolio, Michael Sata is very economical with truth.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, of course, history is history and current affairs are different from it. This Government is not trustworthy. I can justify my statement by looking at what has been happening. 

Sir, there was another article that was published, but I will not quote it due to limited time. During the time that the PF was in Opposition, it supported the 50 per cent plus one clause, but a few weeks ago, the Secretary-General of the same PF said that he does not support it. He has actually turned the statement around. 

Sir, there are so many other promises that this Government has made to the people of Zambia.

Interruptions. 

Dr Musokotwane: Ya! I am building up a case to show you that you are not reliable.

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, do not mind the hecklers. 

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, they promised cheap mealie-meal, but they have delivered expensive mealie-meal. They promised lots of money in our pockets, but they have drained them. This Government is known for having brought about many by-elections claiming that the MMD and the United Party for National Development (UPND) members won through corruption. During the by-election in Katuba, they were in the forefront dishing out money. That is corruption. The PF promised a certain foreign Government that when it came into office, it would kick out the Chinese.

Mr Ng’onga: Roadmap!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the first thing it did when it got into office was to embrace the Chinese. The PF also went to Mongu and said that if it got into office, it would honour the Barotseland Agreement. Did it honour it? No. There are so many examples that I can give to you whereby the Government has made promises which it has failed to fulfil. This is why people are so anxious about having the roadmap today. That is the linkage. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, how can you trust somebody with a whole history of failing to fulfil promises? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, how can we trust them when they say …

Hon. Opposition Member: You cannot.

Dr Musokotwane: … that they are going to give us the roadmap? Can we trust them?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, it is not too long ago when people were talking about the roadmap. What did we hear from the President? The President said that:

“Why are you bothered about this Constitution when you already have a Constitution in place that is working.” 

Sir, as members of the civil society, we will conclude that the President does not want to enact the Constitution. This is why we are pressuring this Government to give us the roadmap. We have seen the deployment of a strategy which in administrative science is called deliberate inefficiency.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, everywhere else, people want efficiency, …

Mr Muntanga: That is right.

Dr Musokotwane: … but with regard to this particular process, there is deliberate inefficiency. An example of that is when we were told that the Draft Constitution was completed, I think months ago.

Hon. Opposition Members: In December.

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, we were told that it was completed in December last year. The next step was to hand it over to somebody in the Government.

Interjected.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, you have heard for yourself that for three months, this Government has been failing to accept the Draft Constitution from the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution. That is what is called deliberate inefficiency. What we see is that there is simply no political will on that side of the House to have the new Constitution enacted. There is no political will whatsoever.

Mr Speaker, let me tell you why this deliberate inefficiency is there. Why is the political will not there? The reason is that the Government has no intention, whatsoever, of seeing a new Constitution used for the 2016 elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, this Government, even at the height of its popularity in 2011, got 42 per cent of the votes. It knows that it has lost popularity because it has heard what the people are saying about it. It has been reading the intelligence reports. It also knows that if it goes to the elections with the 50 per cent plus one vote clause in place, clearly it will go out of power.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, clearly, the only survival mechanism that it is using is to hold on to the Constitution. 

Mr Mufalali: To cling.

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, Sir, to cling to the Constitution … 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: … so that come, 2016, maybe, if it is lucky because there are no guarantees as we saw when the MMD lost …

Mr Livune: You lost.

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, yes, we lost. We are honest people who admit when we lose. 

Laughter

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the political motivation for prolonging the Constitution-making process is that they are scared of losing the elections.

Mr Livune: Correct!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, my last point is that as we have been agitating for this Constitution, I feel very sad that the Government has reacted in a manner that is unexpected. One of those reactions that I feel very sad about is when His Honour the Vice-President stated that we are monkeying.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, only a lion can do what a lion does.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, only a snake can do what a snake does. Not so?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, only a monkey can do what a monkey …

Hon. Opposition Member: Does.

Dr Musokotwane: … does. Therefore, His Honour the Vice-President is saying we are …

Hon. Opposition Members: Monkeys. 

Hon. Backbenchers: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: … monkeys. He is saying that the people of Liuwa are monkeys. 

Mr Livune: Of Kazungula.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Liuwa, …

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … there was a point of order that was raised on that issue. It was raised initially by, I do not remember the first Member, and then complimented by the hon. Member for Monze Central. I have reserved the ruling. I think in fairness to the Speaker, wait for the ruling. You may continue.

Hon. Opposition Member: Look at him.

Dr Musokotwane: I am most obliged, Mr Speaker. 

Sir, in conclusion, I want to say that we will keep on pressurising that Government for the enactment of a new Constitution. The civil society will also keep on pressurising it because the truth of the matter is that that Government has no intention of seeing the Constitution-making process through. Given its long history of untruths, there is no reason for the people of Zambia to trust what they will be told by the Government regarding the Constitution-making process. The only option is for us, as hon. Members of Parliament, civil society and the people out there is to put pressure on the PF Government. The time it was in the Opposition, the PF put pressure on the previous Government regarding the enactment of a new Constitution. Thus, we are within our rights to pressurise the Government for the enactment of a new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, let me urge, especially the Catholic Church which has been put in a very embarrassing situation, to stand together with the people of Zambia, as it has always done in order to ensure that a new Constitution is delivered to the Zambian people. In, 1964, the people of Zambia joined forces to force the imperialist out. In 1991, the people joined forces to kick dictatorship out. Fifty years later, let us join forces to make sure that a new Constitution comes into put in place. God bless Zambia.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mrs Mwamba): Mr Speaker, I would like to begin by saying that this Motion, indeed, is not controversial, but irrelevant. It is irrelevant … 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mrs Mwamba: … because our colleagues are pushing an open door.

Mr Muntanga: Question!

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, they are talking about putting pressure on a President who has already been very proactive regarding the Constitution-making process. President Sata did not need any prompting to start the Constitution-making process. No one forced him to do that. On his own accord, he put it in motion … 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: … as envisioned by our party manifesto. So, what is this pressure all about?

    Mr Speaker, His Excellency President Micheal Chilufya Sata has been magnanimous regarding this process. He allowed wider consultations as we saw by the holding of district, provincial and national conventions where a lot of people were taken on board to represent various interest groups across the county. What else can you ask for?

Hon. Back-Benchers: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Sir, why are they putting pressure on him or us?

Sir, this process is, therefore, being driven by the people who sat in all the conventions at every level. They are representing people from a cross-section of society. 

Mr Speaker, the President has allowed the Zambian people to own this process. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Sir, even the people saying ‘question’ attended the conventions at both provincial and national level. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, the surprising thing is that these colleagues on your left took four years to bring a sham Bill to this House …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: … which the gallant Members on your right, Sir, rejected because it was not worthwhile. That Bill was tailored by the people that were in Government then to suit their interests and this is why we threw it out. 

Mr Speaker, even when it was presented to this House, it was clear that the Executive then had tailored it …

Hon. Livune interjected. 

Mrs Mwamba: … it to suit … 

Mr Speaker: Just a moment, hon. Deputy Minister. 

This is the second time I have singled out the Hon. Member for Katombola. 

Laughter 

An hon. Government Member interjected. 

Mr Speaker: No, hon. Minister, do not add anything to what I am saying.  

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: This might be the last time we are meeting until mid-June.  

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: I would like everybody to be present. This is our last day and we are looking at an important Motion. You are representing the people of Katombola and I am sure that they would be very sad to see The Speaker send their Member out of the Chamber. 

Laughter 

Mr Speaker:  Hon. Members, let us be patient. Even though we are looking at a very emotive subject, we still have a lot of time ahead of us. If you do not agree with anybody, make notes so that when your time comes, you challenge all these views. Do not try to shout down the people that are speaking. I have said this before, hon. Member for Katombola.

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: I hope you do not compel me to take the step that I have intimated. If, however, you desire it, I will have to do so. 

Hon. Minister, continue. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, it was clear that the Executive then had tailored a Bill to suit their interests. They wanted to use the rest of the members of the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) to rubberstamp it. This was evidenced by the walking out …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, the use of the word ‘rubberstamp’ is not permitted in this House. This has never ever been a rubberstamping authority and will never be. 

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘rubberstamp’ even though I was referring to the members of the NCC.

Mr Speaker: Oh, I see. Please, proceed then. 

Mrs Mwamba: Sir, they used the members of the NCC to rubberstamp what they had tailored for themselves and this was evidenced by my colleagues on your left, Sir, walking out at the eleventh hour of shooting down the sham Bill. 

Mr Kampyongo: They wanted allowances.

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Speaker, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution which was put in place by President Sata was purely professional and did a good job. None of us was represented in that committee.  

Mr Speaker, thus far, we have demonstrated our seriousness and commitment to the Constitution-making process. We are very committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mrs Mwamba: Sir, the roadmap is clearer now than ever before. Our people can see where we have come from and where we are going. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Sir, only those who need four pairs of spectacles cannot see where we are going. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: Sir, it is very clear, as stated by everyone on this side of the House, that the roadmap is in place. Indeed, if they want the roadmap to be put on paper in future, that can be done because it is there. 

Laughter 

Mrs Mwamba: Sir, what is this hustle all about? We have a roadmap. There is no one who has refused to give the Zambian people a new Constitution. The Constitution will be put in place in due course. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, let me thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the Motion which is on the Floor of the House. Also, let me commend you for permitting this Motion to be debated. I would be extremely uncharitable if I did not commend the mover and seconder of this Motion for presenting it to this House. 

Sir, as records in this House and elsewhere in the country will show, I have been part of the process in this country since 2001. I have been extremely consistent on the Constitution-making issue. Even when it was favourable for people to make money out of the Constitution-making process, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: ... I chose to remain consistent and true to the aspirations of the people of Kabwata Constituency, whom I represent. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, it would be very uncharacteristic of me if I shunned away from debating this Motion. This is the reason I am delighted that you have permitted me to add my voice to this very important Motion which reads “That this House urges the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of a new Constitution and also to expedite the process considering that the work of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has been completed and is ready for submission.”

Sir, it is my very strong conviction that this Motion and the debate surrounding it is a grand opportunity to put the current discourse on the Constitution-making process in the right perspective. It is also my contention that the Motion should be used as a platform that should encourage informed and popular participation in all the processes of arriving at a Constitution we all want. It is my fervent hope that the Motion shall be used to condense the anger that is unnecessarily being stirred up in the country. It is my humble prayer that this Motion shall be debated in a sober manner befitting its national importance and that the debate shall be devoid of invectives and vulgar language. 

Mr Ng’onga: Quality!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I do not think that this Motion calls for the utilisation of innuendoes and vulgar language as well as words that are foreign to this House. I do not think that this Motion should be used to tear any person’s nose, pluck out any person’s eyes or block another person’s ears. Rather, it should be used to galvanise the people on whose behalf we assemble here. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mr Lubinda: On this score, Sir, let me commend my good friend, Hon. Bwalya Chungu, and I adopt his debate as my own. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I hope I shall be as sober as he was in his debate because this matter is important. 

Sir, I do not think that this matter must be used to bring cross-country issues on the Floor of this House. There are many other opportunities for us to engage in cross-country debates. I do not think that this is an opportunity for us to start reading history and casting aspersions at people, particularly those who are not here. 

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Sir, one of dictates of being a Back-Bencher and a cadre in the Ruling Party is to pay attention to what Cabinet Ministers and party leaders are saying on matters on the Floor before you can make your contributions. The second practical responsibility is to decipher personal, party and Government positions. I have chosen to listen carefully. From this background, I can confidently state that the PF Government, its leadership and, indeed, many, if not all on this side of the House are desirous of seeing the Zambians get a Constitution that shall stand the test of time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, let me emphsise that from what I have been hearing and reading leaving aside personal issues, I am convinced beyond doubt that the PF Government is desirous to see the Zambian people get a Constitution that will stand the test of time.

Sir, as my colleague, the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs has stated already, and as some hon. Members on your left already made reference to, in our party manifesto which was crafted not by one person, but the participation of many on this side of the House and also many who are not privileged enough to be in this House, we indicated that our pledge was to give to the Zambian people an opportunity to have a Constitution that will inspire them. Many presidential pronouncements on this matter, which have already been referred to by my colleagues, have also stated this position. I want to appeal to all of us gathered here and all our brothers and sisters out there not to fall prey to the dangerous habit of reading these President’s statements out of context.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lubinda:  Sir, I can hear the word ‘question’ loudly and clearly. I shall endeavour to provide the required answer if my colleagues will permit me to do so.

Sir, in 2011, the President referred to the PF Government’s commitment to delivering a new people-driven Constitution within ninety days. The deliverables in that statement were a people driven Constitution within ninety days. Those were the deliverables in the statement of His Excellency when he first addressed Parliament as Head of State in 2011. If uncle Shikapwasha cares to listen to his nephew, he would learn that the President did not end there.

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Can the hon. Member for Keembe sit down.  Hon, Lubinda, I do not think that statement was necessary. You may have stated it as a jest, but I am sure when you consider the situation we are in and as I mentioned in relation to the hon. Member for Lukulu West, there is very little space for light moments. In short, I think that reference was uncalled for. It was not necessary. You may continue.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I will leave him and all others who are trying to heckle me away and aside.

Sir, let me proceed by saying that when the President made that statement to Parliament in 2011, he did not end there. He also gave us a strategy that he was going to employ in arriving at those deliverables, a people-driven Constitution within ninety days. He and I quote:

“To this effect, we are in the process of consulting stakeholders with the view of establishing a committee of experts to review the recommendations of all the previous Constitution Review Commissions in order to come up with a people’s Draft Constitution.”

 Sir, that was the strategy that he proposed to us in 2011.

Sir, in 2012, he came back to the House and reported to us on how this strategy was progressing and these are the words he used:

“I am pleased to inform this august House that good progress has since been made. The Technical Committee of competent men and women was appointed within ninety days of the Patriotic Front (PF) Government assuming office. The Technical Committee has worked diligently and produced the first Draft Constitution in both English and seven local languages.” 

Mr Speaker, the humble question to be asked is: Did the stakeholders give the President any imperative evidence that the process of coming up with a truly people-driven Constitution was going to take longer than ninety days? 

Mr Speaker, my sincere conclusion is that yes, indeed, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution which drew up its own programme of work indicated to His Excellency the President that what he was hoping for was not tenable. They told the President that he would not be able to give the Zambian people an opportunity to give themselves a people-driven Constitution within ninety days.

Mr Belemu interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Member for Mbabala, you are disturbing the proceedings of the House. The hon. Member for Kabwata may continue.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, to prove that what I am saying is true, one only has to refer to what the hon. Minister of Justice submitted to this House on this matter. He said:

“At the risk of repeating myself, I wish to stress that although we, as the PF believed that the Constitution could be delivered within ninety days, we let the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution draw up its own programme of work. 

“Sir, we were desirous of giving the Zambian people an opportunity to give to all of us a Constitution within ninety days. However, in the process of consulting so that we end up with a truly people-driven Constitution, it was laid bare to all us that that was not tenable within ninety days. What choice did we have?”

Sir, there is no denying that there are anxieties regarding the pace at which the process is going. Suffice to say that this anxiety is not only shared by my friends in the Opposition. It is shared by all of us. It is also shared by His Excellency the President. How did I arrive at that conclusion? I indicated earlier on that the President’s statements should not be read out of context. When the President addressed Parliament last year, he said:

Hon. Shakafuswa interjected.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I hope you will protect me from my young brother, Hon. Jonas Shakafuswa, who is excited after having been elected to the House.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Member for Kabwata should not pay attention to him. The hon. Member for Katuba is quite close to where I am, so I am watching him very carefully. The hon. Member for Kabwata may continue.

 Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I was about to argue the fact that the President is also anxious about the pace at which the process has been going because when he addressed Parliament last year, he said as follows:

“With regard to the Constitution-making process, the Government remains committed to delivering a people-driven Constitution. The consultative process has been completed and the Final Draft Constitution is expected by the end of this year.”

Sir, on a matter which many people have quarrelled about and a question was even posed to my colleague Hon. Bwalya, he said:

“Thereafter, the Government in collaboration with other stakeholders will guide the process accordingly.”

Mr Speaker, these statements spell out the roadmap. Who is it …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, the President was very categorical. Therefore, we expect the Draft Constitution to be presented to us by the end of the year. Thereafter, the Government in collaboration with other stakeholders will guide the process. Whatever guides a process is a roadmap.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Sir, surely, we have to question the genuiness of whoever refuses the roadmap  which the President clearly spelt out on the Floor of this House.

Sir, the Motion is urging the Government to come up with a roadmap on the Constitution-making process. What I would like to do is suggest to my friend, Hon. Gary Nkombo, that probably he should seek leave from you to amend this Motion so that it reads, “To urge the hon. Minister of Justice to expedite the process of the Technical Committee handing over the Draft Constitution to the President.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I say so because that is where the lacuna is. The lacuna is not on what will happen after the President receives the report. The lacuna is between now that the committee drafting the Constitution has completed its work and the presentation of its report to the President. That is where our colleagues may raise a question. However, with regard to the roadmap after the committee’s report is handed to the President, that is going to be a process that will be guided by the Government in collaboration with other stakeholders.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, the element lacking in this Motion is the process of expediting the  committee’s handing over its report to the President. The process that requires expediting is not after the report has been handed over to the President, but the process leading to the handing over of this report. I do not think there is anyone on this side of the House who would quarrel or have difficulties with that because it is the desire of everybody that we give the Zambian people an opportunity to give to themselves a genuine people-driven Constitution.

Sir, if the Motion was read in that fashion, I would have had no difficulty to support it from the outset because that is what the Zambian people are asking for. In case this raises fears in some people, I would like to allay those fears by reminding ourselves what the hon. Minister of Justice said to us. He informed this House that he had already contacted State House to seek an opportunity for the committee to present the Draft Constitution to State House.

 Sir, if, indeed, we want to urge any person or the Government to take any action, we have to urge the Government or His Honour the Vice-President to see if the President can expedite the process of receiving the Draft Constitution and not anything else after that. That is the only way this Motion would be representative of the views of the people of Kabwata Constituency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, everything outside that, I am afraid, is politicking and I do not think we should use this Motion for that purpose.

Sir, I want to end by appealing to all of us to seize this opportunity to heal wounds, galvanise the Zambian people and ensure that we encourage popular participation in this very important national process. We should not try to use this process to settle scores or for innuendoes, insults and attacking each other. Let us use it to build this country, our only one Zambia. We need it much more than it needs us. We should remember that we are doing this for posterity and not for ourselves. Let us be mindful of the fact that history is going to judge us for what we do and stand for.

Sir, I thank you for allowing me to debate and also say thank you to my colleague, Hon. Nkombo, for bring this Motion because it is a beautiful opportunity to galvanise the Zambian people.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, I stand to support this Motion. This Motion is very clear and hon. Members of the PF Government should be thankful that some people are kind enough to persuade them to do the right thing. Therefore, it is up to them to do the right or wrong thing. I am not going to talk about the contents of the Draft Constitution because I do not know what it contains. However, I want to state that the Zambian people need a new Constitution because of …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, we have realised that since the committee finished its work in December, 2013, it has taken three months to hand over its report to the President. Due to certain statements, I agree with this particular Motion urging the Government to allow the committee to hand over this document to the President and make a roadmap.

Mr Speaker, I have been listening very carefully and other hon. Members were saying that there is a roadmap. 

Dr Mwali interjected.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the hon. Deputy Minister is saying there is a roadmap. Even the hon. Minister of Justice says there is a roadmap on the Constitution-making process. However, this roadmap ended at his consultation to seek an appointment with State House for the committee to hand over its report to the President.

Mr Speaker, we are not asking for a roadmap from where we have come from. That is history and is not the point. We must differentiate the situation. What we want is a strategic plan. What is the Government’s action plan for the enactment of a new Constitution? We want a clear action plan on when this process will be concluded. That is the roadmap we are talking about. Our colleagues are behaving like someone who follows a cow in the bush without knowing where it is going, but expects it to make a path. That is not what we want.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, that is not what we want.

Sir, do not take us into a situation where we do not know where we are going. All the work that has been done by the committee is in the past.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, it is gone. We now want to focus on what the Draft Constitution has put together. That is the roadmap we are talking about, but we do not have it.

Mr Speaker, I am grateful that the hon. Deputy Minister agreed with us. The hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata has also conceded that there is no roadmap.

Mr Mwila: Question!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, it seems they do not understand what I am talking about.

Mr Nkombo: English.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, we want to talk about the roadmap towards the enactment of a new Constitution.

Mr Nkombo: Not backwards.

Mr Muntanga: Yes, Sir, we are not going backwards. How are we going to effect the enactment of a new Constitution? How long are we going to take? What time frame are we looking at? You cannot do things in an open-ended manner. Maybe, you want the new Constitution enacted in 2016 when you are out of power. We are talking about planning here.

Mr D. Mwila: Question!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, what is their strategic plan? Maybe, you have problems planning. 

Mrs Mwamba: Now.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, His Honour the Vice-President was saying that he can enact a Constitution with eighty Members. He is lost. That cannot happen. You should have 106 Members which is two-thirds. He is totally lost. You cannot do it without having a two-thirds majority. They should not have the confidence that they can enact a new Constitution just because they have three Members from the UPND. They need to give us a plan because they need us. How do they propose that this particular Constitution will be handed over to the people? What is their idea?

Dr Kaingu: They are lost.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they cannot go round in circles telling us that there is a roadmap which does not exist. 

Mr Speaker, how can the Minister of Justice tell us that it takes him three months to just seek an appointment with the President to hand over a document? He sees the President every other day. Surely, how can he not talk to the President about handing over a document? Will they only realise that they needed to put a new Constitution in place when they are taken out of power? What is their roadmap? Maybe, the roadmap is a difficult word. They might be thinking we are talking about the maps for our roads. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, let them tell us their plan going forward.

Dr Kalila: Hammer!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, maybe, they are thinking we are talking of some track. Is that why they are talking about animal-driven Constitution? Any human being must plan. This Government is failing to plan. 

Mr Speaker, I am never surprised with their comments regarding the Constitution-making process. The first time we were trying to get a Constitution, they refused to join the process. Even though that was the case, some of the PF members still got some money out of the process. We know they got the money. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, there was K134 billion for 600 people. There is K154 billion for eighteen people now. Who is extravagant?

Mr Mukata: You also ate.

Hon. Opposition Members: The PF!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, for eighteen people, they have spent K154 billion. They should not tell the people lies.

Mr Musenge: Were you not paid?

Mr Miyanda: You owe us money.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they are supposed to come out in the open. Why are they delaying the process? What is their game plan? 

Dr Kalila: There is no plan.

Mr Mukata: You cannot understand.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I know that you will not vote with us because that is your tendency. They want to tell the people that they have a roadmap when they do not have one. 

Dr Kaingu: Nothing.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, they do not have a plan of when the Draft Constitution will be handed over to the President. They have also not told us if there is going to be a referendum. They have no plan. They are just hoping of President Sata waking up some day and saying, “Yes, now we must complete the process.” This is because a number of them are blank.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Yes.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kalomo Central, now you are casting aspersions. You have been debating very well. Just debate issues the way you have been debating.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I have been forced to say what I said because the PF Members are saying that there is a roadmap when we do not have one. Everybody knows that there is no roadmap. Why do they want to argue? Why can they not just come up in the open and say that they shall try to make a roadmap because we have reminded them to do so? 

Dr Kaingu: They have no map.

Mr Muntanga: Yes, they have no roadmap.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, I have been following your debate very closely. I can see now that you are repeating yourself.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am avoiding to say the reasons why I need the roadmap. You have said the debate is only about one word, ‘roadmap’.

Mr Nkombo: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: I must speak only about that one word.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: If I do not …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kalomo Central, on a very serious note, I am following your debate very closely. It is not about you repeating this single word.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: It is about you repeating your assertions. There is a distinction between an assertion and a word. Let us not trivialise these things. Maybe, it is difficult for you to follow what is happening because you are speaking. If you were to look at the verbatim of the proceedings, you would see the repetitions. The point I am making is that, you have made your case.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, thank you very much for you are helping me. I do not know which side you are. That side (pointing to the Government’s side) or the centre.

Mr Speaker: I am in the middle. You cannot see where I am? I am in the middle.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Now, that you appear to be on my side …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: No.

Mr Muntanga: For a while, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Do you still want to continue debating?

Mr Musukwa: He is blank.

Mr Muntanga: Yes, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Continue then.

Mr Ng’onga: Sit down.

Mr Muntanga: Thank you very much. The words, I used Mr Speaker, are that, they are blank. Perhaps I should have stated that President Sata said some Members of Parliament …

Mr Nkombo: Most.

Mr Muntanga: … are useless. 

Mr Nkombo: They are useless

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I find … 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: No. I do not accept that position.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I see.

Mr Speaker: I do not. I do not accept that reference. I have said before that let us be very careful about what is said on the Floor of the House and what is said outside.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Speaker: The inclination and indication I am getting now, I hope I am wrong, is that you have exhausted your debate.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Mr Miyanda: Finish them.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, my worry is that the hon. Minister of Justice did indicate that there are these things that he did not know before he went into Government. He was not aware that the poverty levels prevailing in the country are high. He was not aware that the health sector is in a bad state. He was not aware that there are poor roads. He was not aware that there is a lack of infrastructure development. All that was said by the hon. Minister of Justice who is an important person in the Constitution-making process. He seemed to suggest that the Government does not have the money to facilitate the Constitution-making process. At what point shall we know that this Government means what it is talking about?

Since a lot of money has been spent already, let us now hand over the document to the President and to the people of Zambia. At the moment, people are just guessing and debating in the newspapers. I wonder what the basis is. They are now actively debating the contents of the Draft Constitution, which has not been handed over. In order for us to participate properly and know the contents of the Draft Constitution, our appeal is that, please, receive this document, President Sata, tomorrow …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … and then hand it over to us so that we can look at it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, from there, we can advise and properly contribute to the formulation of the Constitution. It does not pay to stay without a plan.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I believe that there is a need for this particular Motion. We need this Motion simplified as the roadmap which should state the action which should be taken before the enactment of the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.    

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chipata Central.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa interjected. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Choma Central, I do not know where this impatience is coming from. The Standing Orders have been suspended. You cannot demand that now it is me to speak. Life is not like that. There were two Members speaking and there is another one after the hon. Member for Kalomo Central.

The hon. Member for Chipata Central may speak.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, I am so delighted to have this chance to be a part of the group that is urging the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of the Constitution. A roadmap is made up of the details of the procedures to be followed in order to achieve a goal. It is not open-ended. What we want on the table is a document which will tell about the enactment of a new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, there is the word ‘expedite’ in the Motion. It means that the process has to be done with speed and efficiency. This is what we are here for this afternoon.

Mr Speaker, on Page 39 and Paragraph 2 of the 2011 President’s Speech, His Excellency the President of Zambia, Michael Chilufya Sata, our President, told us that he would give the people of Zambia a Constitution which is driven by themselves in ninety day.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, this is a very simple language. He said that the process would be completed in ninety days. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, this is simple English. The President said we would have a new people-driven Constitution within ninety days. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mtolo: Sir, how can this be difficult to understand? This was our President talking to us here in this noble House.

Mr Mbulakulima: Plain language, plain English.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, let me quote the last part where he said:

“The Draft Constitution will be subjected to a referendum and subsequently presented to Parliament for enactment.”

Dr Kaingu: Who said that?

Mr Mtolo: The President.

Hon. Opposition Member: Ah!

Mr Mtolo: The President of Zambia said that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: His name is President Michael Chilufya Sata.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Hammer!

Hon. Government Members: Then you have the roadmap.

Mr Mtolo: Yes, Mr Speaker, others might regard this as a roadmap, but I do not.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Sir, I do not. A roadmap is a process which has an end. We do not have a Constitution now. How can that be a roadmap? 

Mr Mbulakulima: Ebaume aba!

Mr Belemu: Hammer!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let us have some order on the right. Let the hon. Member continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, a roadmap is a time table.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, it is a segmented time table.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, I will move on to another subject, but will come back to this matter later. I will move on to the issue of the cost.

Mr Speaker, the NCC gobbled about K135 billion according to the President of Zambia and the Manifesto of the PF. In the PF Manifesto, that is Item 22 on Page 42.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the PF, thus far, has used K150 billion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mbulakulima: Aba bantu aba, nibakabolala aba.

Mr Mtolo: Sir, let us compare. This K135 billion I am quoting is from the PF Manifesto. This K150 billion is from the PF itself. When you add this figure and the previous amounts which I would put at about K200 million, you realise that Zambia has used almost K500 billion on this Constitution which we are not seeing. Why should it be like that? Which hon. Member of Parliament in here can be happy that we have used so much money and are not seeing the results? 

Mr Speaker, how many boreholes can we have out of K500 billion?

Mr Muchima: Ask them?

Mr Mtolo: Sir, how many classroom blocks can we have out of that money?

Hon. Opposition Member: Oh, there are plenty!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, how many feeder roads can we have out of that money?

Hon. Opposition Member: There are many!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, how many health posts can we have out of that money? Let us have a conscience. Let us not trivialise issues.

Mr Simfukwe: Exactly.

Mr Mtolo: Sir, we are talking about a very scarce resource, money, which Zambia needs so much.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, we cannot sit here and start joking or start talking about things which are not there. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, where is the Constitution? 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Look at them!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, let me move to another issue. Zambia is a democratic State governed by a Constitution. This means that this country cannot be governed in an arbitrary fashion. A Constitution is an antithesis to arbitrary rule. You cannot have a person say today that I will give you a Constitution and tomorrow that he will not and the next day say that this is an animal thing. 

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Sir, that is arbitrary rule. Zambia is under a constitutional democracy.

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, you need a document like a Constitution to govern even when you have the numbers. His Honour the Vice-President talked about numbers in the House and demonised our very good hon. Members who have gone to assist them. This is trying to bring unnecessary tension. We do not need that. We are all Zambians and this country is ours.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, I am just not too sure about whether the choice of the word ‘demonising’ is appropriate in the context. 

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. I withdraw the term ‘demonise’. I am happy that you are not curtailing my debate because you know that I am on course. I used a wrong term and I withdraw it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the PF Government was voted into office by the people of Zambia meaning that they have popular sovereignty.

Mr Livune: Question!

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: However, Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: I am sure you are surprised …

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: There are certain traditions which are acceptable about how you respond. However, when you use non-traditional means, then we run into difficulties. The hon. Member is entitled to question those propositions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: So, if you apply acceptable tradition, you have no difficulty with the Speaker.

Dr Kaingu: Question!

Mr Speaker: Whether you are in support or opposition, there are traditions which you must follow. They are long-established traditions.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the other tenet of a constitutional democracy like Zambia is that there is majority rule, as has been elucidated by His Honour the Vice-President. Any definition of this type of rule indicates that even the minority rights should be respected. Therefore, whilst the number of hon. Government Members can tear this Motion, the fact is that the Motion should be respected. 

Mr Speaker, the power which the PF has with numbers is limited power. The limit comes from the Constitution. 

Hon. Government Member: Alelanda bwino.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the last issue in terms of these tenets is that there is supposed to be institutionalised limitations in a democracy, meaning that whilst the Executive can try to temper with the process, it should respect what the Judiciary and the Legislature will say and this is where we come in.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, I think that you have diverted from the Motion. You seem to be giving a lecture on constitutional democracy.

Mr Mbulakulima: Aleisa.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I urge you to come back to the Motion.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I will move on to why we need what has been termed a ‘roadmap’.

Mr Speaker, in 2011, the Executive appointed a Technical Committee to draft the Constitution. 

Hon. Government Members:  Road map!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, in April 2012, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution circulated the document to the provinces.

Hon. Government Members: Road map!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, in April 2013, there was a debate at Mulungushi International Conference Centre where …

Hon. Government Members: Roadmap!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, may I be protected …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Kamano aka.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the debate ratified the First Draft Constitution.

Hon. Government Members: Roadmap!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Just a moment, Hon. Mtolo.

Hon. Members, let us be honourable. Give him the silence he deserves. You know what we went through last week. Please, let us not go back to what we went through last week.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, after that April, 2013 ratification at the Mulungushi International Conference Centre, the Technical Committee asked for time and that was around June or July. It asked for an extension. The good thing is that by December, 2013, the Draft Constitution was ready. I wish you had not stopped my colleagues on the right from saying ‘roadmap’ because now, I would have loved to hear their answer to this.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chipata Central, I think you are missing the point. You are not addressing these people. You are addressing me. They are part of your audience, but you are not in a dialogue with them. I do not even know why you should even promote that chorus anyway because it is disorderly …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Why would you promote such a chorus?

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, well, it is because they are disorderly.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

You are the promoter.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I was saying that in December, 2013, the Draft Constitution was ready, and we are now in March, 2014. The committee did its job. It would like now to hand over the Draft Constitution. However, it seems that it has no one to hand it over to.

Mr Mbulakulima: Just receive it.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, this is why we are here today. Why are we not seeing the document being given to the President and the people of Zambia? Why is it so?

Mr Speaker, why do I say that? When the document was ready at Mulungushi International Conference Centre, they decided that there would be no White Paper, meaning that there would be no input from the Executive. There is no need for the Executive to study the Draft Constitution and start changing things because the process is supposed to be people-driven. Therefore, what is the delay about? I would like to ask this specifically not in order to get an answer, but to counter the debate which Hon. Lubinda had given because it sounded so straight, but it was not to me. There is no need for the Executive to add anything to this document because the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has done the job.

Mr Bwalya: Finally.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, according to the terms of reference, it was supposed to hand over the document to the President and the people of Zambia simultaneously. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, why is there a problem? The Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution asked to produce 5,000 copies of the Draft Constitution. Who stopped it? Why did it not produce the 5,000 copies? Why was it told to produce ten copies only? Now, we do not even know whether there is a copy. What we got is a leaked document on the Zambian Watchdog. What is the problem? We are here to encourage the Executive not to be blind to this fact. It is not supposed to add anything. The document is supposed to be given to us in its raw form. Those are the terms of reference.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has done its job and the people of Zambia would like to get this document. If the Executive is not aware of this fact, it should read the terms of reference which the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution was given before it went out to work. Where is the delay? What is the problem? That is where the issue of the roadmap, which Hon. Nkombo urged us to encourage the Government to give us, has come from. There is no need for the Executive to go through the Draft Constitution on its own.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, that is not part of the terms of reference. They should read the terms of reference.

Mr Speaker, there is a Draft Constitution and there is a report on the Draft Constitution. Let the people read so that they argue intelligently.  There is no need for anyone to add anything. There was a day here when His Honour the Vice-President how they could take the Draft Constitution to a referendum if they have not agreed to a certain clause. Agree with what? The Government does not need to agree with anything. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the people’s wishes should be respected. That is why the Constitution starts with the sentence, “We, the people of Zambia” …

Interruptions 

   Mr Mtolo: Sir, no one in this House is wiser than the many Zambians out there. No one in this House is wiser than all of us together. Therefore, nobody can come here and say that he will give us the Constitution when he wants to. Who can say that? If anyone will doctor that document, it will not be accepted …

Mr Mbulakulima: We shall stone him.

Mr Mtolo: … because we have a point of reference since the document was leaked.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, as I get to the conclusion, …

Mr Shakafuswa: No, carry on.

Hon. Opposition Members: Carry on.

Mr Mtolo: Thank you for the encouragement.

Mr Speaker, as I get to the conclusion, allow me to touch a little on the separation of powers. The Executive should be very careful. Its power is from the people, and we are the people. Here, we represent the people. When we come here, the Executive should listen to what we say because if it does not listen, when we go out there, we are going to tell Zambians not to accept anything other than what we know, and then there will be chaos in this country, like the one which was in this House last week.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the reason such things happen is that one group does not want to listen to the other. The Executive does not have more power than the Legislature. We are the Legislature. Mr Speaker, you are our microphone. You are our Chief Executive, and therefore, should be able to correct hon. Members of the Executive when they do wrong things.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Sir, since we want the Constitution, you should not allow them to say, “We will give you when we want.” No. Mr Speaker, you have awesome powers. You should be able to tell the Executive …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … you have now gone off course. You have raised a totally new subject and it is not fair because I cannot engage you. I can only watch helplessly. I cannot dictate who should do what. 

I have been quite liberal the last one-and-a-half hours. Please, let us confine ourselves to the Motion.

Hon. Member for Solwezi East.

Mr Mtolo interjected.

Mr Speaker: I suppose you said you concluded.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: Sir, no I have not. I was just listening to your good counsel.

Mr Speaker: Alright, you conclude formerly.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to wholeheartedly join the voice of the many Zambians who are telling the Government under President Michael Sata that we have waited enough. The Constitution should be circulated to the Zambian people as per the terms of reference so that when the Executive is studying it, the people of Zambia will also be doing the same activity.

Sir, with those very few remarks, I wish to support the Motion on the Floor.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Maiden speech!

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: What maiden speech!

Mr Lombanya: … first of all, I want to congratulate the mover of this Motion on the manner he articulated the issues on the Floor and, equally, the seconder, the hon. Member for Chembe.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, I also want to welcome to the House, my neighbour, Hon. Shakafuswa. We share the boundary in the farm area in Ngwerere.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, issues to do with the Constitution are very emotive because the ones who own it are the people out there and not us in this House. We are merely the representatives of the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, I do not agree with anybody who states that, “If the people of Zambia want the Constitution, we shall give it to them.” How do you give it to the owner? Why should the owner of the property ask for it?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hmm!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, it is the responsibility of the people to drive the Constitution-making process. The role of the Executive is to merely facilitate, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: … because it controls how the resources of the country are spent. The power remains with the people.

Mr Speaker, those who have read the reports of the Mvunga, Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba Constitution Review Commissions must have seen the signatures of the respective secretaries appended to them. You append a signature on to a document to certify that it is a true record of what the people have said.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, if you looked at the Mvunga, Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba Constitution Review Commissions reports, you would notice that the people have been consistent in their demand for a Constitution that will stand the test of time. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, what has been lacking is political will. We do not need to look far in order to notice that. We just have to look at the statements which are said every day outside and inside the Chamber. They are very clear. When you get contradicting statements from the Executive over a matter, then you know that there is a problem.

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: There is no roadmap!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, if the Zambians had another way of getting a new Constitution, they would have gotten it two years ago. However, to date, we are still struggling. We are about to clock fifty years, and yet the poor Zambians do not have a good Constitution.

Mr Speaker, a roadmap is like a compass that directs your movement from point A to B so that you do not get lost.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, it is an instrument which acts like a guide. If you want money from the bank, the manager will ask for a business plan before he gives it to you. The reason is simple. The bank wants to know how you are going to use the money. How are you going to move from point A to point B in the process so that the bank can recoup its money?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, do we understand why the people of Zambia want a roadmap? The answer is simple. They are afraid that the document will be doctored.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, that is the reason. The doctoring of such documents has happened before. The Mvunga Constitution Review Commission document was doctored because there was no roadmap. For the Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission, the donors wanted to see the roadmap first. The Mung’omba Constitution Review Commission recommended a constituency assembly which was later on turned into the NCC. The creation of the NCC was in the roadmap. In fact, during the process of gathering information, collating, analysing, summarising and thematic discussions, one could easily pick up a document, and see at what point the process was. We are asking for the roadmap …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: … so that we can know exactly who will do what.

Interruptions 

Mr Lombanya: Sir, we have been told that the hon. Minister of Justice will request His Excellency the President for an opportunity to hand over the document. However, we have not been told who is going to be there to see what is going to happen to that document. The people of Zambia do not want to see a Draft Constitution which is made up of the PF Manifesto.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, I was saying that the people of Zambia were very excited when the PF came into power because of the assurances it made that it was going to deliver the Constitution in record time. Sadly, over time, we started hearing contradictory statements. This began to take away the confidence that people had in the new Government. How can you trust somebody who tells you that the Constitution is defective on one hand and then on the other that there is no vacuum that should make us need a new one? I agree that there is no vacuum, but I still wish to state that the Constitution that we are using was not meant to last the test of time because it was transitional in nature.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, it was perfectly drafted and if some of us do not know,  …

Mr Mufalali: By PF? 

Mr Shakafuswa: You were the secretary. 

Mr Lombanya:  … our own respected Clerk did a perfect job. 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, I know that we are not supposed to debate ourselves, but I still think that credit should be given where it is due …

Mr Shakafuswa interjected. 

Mr Lombanya: … because she worked on that document single-handedly in less than forty days.

Interruptions

Mr Lombanya: Sir, the only problem is that the document is not broad enough for us to depend on it. That is why it was agreed that whoever would win the 1991 election would constitute a Constitution Review Commission which would broaden the provisions of the Constitution that would take care of all the needs of the Zambians. The first attempt to do so was the setting up of the Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission. The work of that commission was improved upon by the Mungomba Constitution Review Commission. When the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution was appointed, the President said that it would have to look at the work which was done by the Mungomba, Mvunga and Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commissions. I do not think that the committee had to reinvent the wheel because the job which was done by the Mungomba Constitution Review Commission was beyond expectation. 

Mr Shakafuswa: Yes!

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, I do not think there are new things in the current Draft Constitution which were not in the Mungomba Draft Constitution. One wonders why it took such a long time for the committee to come up with a document because the work was already done for it. A lot of money was spent on the process. I think the members of the committee were attracted by money. 

Sir, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has spent K150 million, but the Mungomba Constitution Review Commission only spent K36 million for everything. I do not blame it for that because it did its job. All we are saying is that the people of Zambia have waited far too long for a good Constitution. When shall they get it? How can we celebrate fifty years of Independence without a good Constitution? We have spent so much money and time on this document. 

Mr Mufalali: You see.

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, our first attempt to draft an indigenous Constitution began in 1973. More work was done in 1991. The previous laws we had were given to us by the British.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Empty tins.

Mr Lombanya: Sir, we never participated in the Constitution-making process in 1953 and 1964 and 1953. Now that we have the opportunity to give ourselves a constitution, what is the problem? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Roadmap! 

Mr Lombanya: Sir, what is the problem? 

Mr Shakafuswa: The empty tins. They came from bus stops. 

Mr Lombanya: Mr Speaker, all of us, including my colleagues over there when I interact with them individually, agree that we need a new Constitution. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: They are behaving as if they are bus drivers. 

Laughter 

Mr Lombanya: Sir, consciously, all of us agree on that point. The only difference between us and the people on your right is that they are inhibited from openly expressing themselves because of collective responsibility. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Exactly!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, since we all agree that we need a new Constitution, what we need to move forward is what is referred to as a Socratic element. 

Mr Shakafuswa: Elder brother.

Laughter 

Mr Lombanya: Sir, we need to dialogue constructively. I urge all of us in this august House to support the Motion because it is good for us all. It is not only for us sitting on this side of the House. When this document comes out and gives prosperity to Zambia, we shall all enjoy it. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya: Sir, we all have constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Member: Apart from Kabimba.

Mr Lombanya: Sir, the people of Zambia own this document. Let us deliver it to them without undue delay. Let us understand that we have a responsibility to Zambia as our country. The issue that this Motion has been brought to the Floor of the House by the Opposition is neither here nor there. If our colleagues on the other side do not support the Motion, one day, they will find that the ground beneath them has shifted ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! It has already gone!

Mr Lombanya: … and they will be drifting into the sea. That will make life very difficult for them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important Motion. Let me have recourse to your wisdom. As you have hinted, if by roadmap, we mean a process, then we certainly have one. Where we have disagreements is on the speed of this process. There may be some people in the nation and in the House who would like to proceed with indecent haste. Then there are those of us in Government who want to proceed at a cautious speed because the Constitution is the fundamental law of the land. We have an inescapable duty to ensure that the Constitution we deliver stands a test of time. A good Constitution will be our veritable legacy to posterity. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, a bad Constitution is the worst recipe for regression. This country should have been at a much higher level of development than it is at today. Spells of bad governance, some of it implicit in the Constitution are accountable for some of our regression. At Independence, Zambia’s economy was the second largest in Southern Africa. We were about at about 35 per cent of South Africa’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Now, we are at less than 10 per cent of South Africa’s GDP. We had the same GDP as South Korea. Now, the South Koreans are posting a GDP which is in excess of a trillion US Dollars and we are just hovering around US$20 million. In the past, we were at the same level with South Korea. Part of our stagnation originated from the bad governance that we have had. For example, we had a system of governance which led to privatisation which only benefitted a few individuals. The country regressed and the poverty levels went up. 

Mr Speaker, in 2006, when the Late President Mwanawasa, SC. proposed to honour me as a freedom fighter, I had to make a passionate plea to him that I was totally morally constrained to accept to be honoured as I had a backlog of unfinished business. We had delivered the country from colonialism in which its people are still wallowing in misery. I can never accept all the honours which are dished out every day recklessly. As a freedom fighter, I think that I have a lot of unfinished business. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, that is why I really put in the best that I can to try to move the country foward. We should look at issues to do with the Constitution in a broad context. We need a Constitution which will give us good governance. We also need a Constitution which will distribute the functions of power in such a way that we can have a safeguard against excesses. That is the Constitution which we all want. Every Zambian should have vested interest in a good Constitution. We should look beyond our being hon. Members of Parliament or when we are in Government. We should have a Constitution that stands the test of time and is a veritable instrument for accelerating the development of our country. Good governance is inextricably tied to the progress a country makes. There are so many countries in this world which are wallowing in misery because of bad governance. Some of the countries in Africa are  failed states. They do not have governments worth talking about. People in such countries are always fighting civil wars. 

Mr Muntanga: Roadmap!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, let us give the hon. Minister of Finance a chance to get to the roadmap. 

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, I will not even take twenty minutes. I will wind up very soon. What I am saying is that all of us have a vested interest in a good Constitution. We are just a component of the 14 million Zambians. So, let us have a bit of modesty as we speak.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, a good Constitution is the only guarantee that the country will move forward on a sustainable basis. One of the things we are not taking into account, hon. Members of Parliament, is that there is nowhere the Constitution will be passed other than in Parliament. No ruling party has got the mechanism to go and pass a Constitution without recourse to Parliament. Parliament is the ultimate sanction for the enactment of a Constitution. The Constitution will come here.

  Mr Speaker, the roadmap is there.

  Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

  Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, as you guided, if by roadmap we mean a process, then I can say that we have one.

  Interruptions

  Mr Speaker: Order!

  Mr Chikwanda: Sir, it is acceptable for people to want us to speed up the process. On this side of the House, we accept that part of the Motion. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Chikwanda, if they were acting in good faith, maybe it would have been easy for us to support the Motion. Who would oppose a good Constitution? In any case, those who are in a hurry are right because we all do not have a millennium to live. We want a new Constitution as quickly as possible. However, we must reconcile speed with propriety. We need to do the right thing. There are also certain considerations which have to be taken into account. When the Draft Constitution is presented to the President, it will be subjected to scrutiny. It is also important for consensus to be reached when driving the process forward. We do not want to bring a Constitution for approval by Parliament which is shrouded in acrimony and controversy. The roadmap is there. It is just a question of speed.  

Sir, my colleagues on the other side are doing a commendable job by trying to express the feelings of the people. However, I wish to urge them to exercise a bit of patience because the Constitution is not only for now. It is also for the coming generations. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, since we are on different sides of the Floor, we usually opt to see things a bit differently. Sometimes those from the Opposition opt to gloss over issues which have severe cost implications.

Sir, we will deliver the Constitution in due course. We are in agreement with the Opposition that there is a need to deliver a good Constitution. Let us not personalise issues. We need a Constitution which will safeguard the interests of future generations. 

Mr Speaker, we all agree that we should have a Constitution which meets the needs of Zambia. I think we only disagree a bit on the speed of the process. I wish to urge our dear distinguished colleagues who embody the conscience of the Zambian people that they should be patient because the country’s Constitution is not like that of a football association.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, I will be very brief. First and foremost, I would like to thank the mover and the seconder of the Motion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: As you indicated, Sir, the mover of the Motion ably debated it. I will not dwell on most of the issues that have been said by my colleagues.

Sir, I would also, at this juncture like to congratulate my young brother on coming to Parliament. Hon. Jonas Shakafuswa, welcome back.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, I think the question that should be in our colleagues’ minds on the right is: Why this agitation for the roadmap? 

Mr Speaker, way back in 2011, on this Floor of this House when I was contributing to the debate on the President’s Speech, I indicated that it was God’s will that President Micheal Sata became the President of this country and I still maintain that viewpoint.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, God acts through people. It was the people of Zambia who were spoken to by God to vote for the PF. As far as the Zambians were concerned, they brought in a man of action. 

Mr Speaker, I believed that the PF would be the best Government. I say so because of the experience that the President has. He was in United National Independence Party (UNIP) and MMD, together with my big man, His Honour the Vice-President. I thought that they would learn from the mistakes of the past …

Hon. Opposition Member: Ba Nkandu Luo

Mr Pande: … which UNIP and probably MMD made. It seems that they have ignored the lessons.

Mr Speaker, people believed, among the many promises that the PF Government made, that it would deliver the Constitution in ninety days. We have been waiting for  a new Constitution for over two years. That is why the people of Zambia are agitated. They have resolved not to trust the promises which are being made by the PF Government regarding the Constitution. That is why we are asking for a roadmap.

Sir, I took the trouble to look at what the word ‘roadmap’ means. One of the definition states that:

“A roadmap is intended for drivers, especially motorists, showing roads, distances and so on in a country area.”

Mr Speaker, another definition states:

“a detailed plan or explanation to guide you in setting standards or determining a course of action.”

So, the key word is ‘detailed.’ What has been provided as the roadmap by the PF has no details. As somebody has already indicated, a roadmap has to do with a trip. You must have a starting point and where you are going to end. The NCC had a clear roadmap.

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Pande: Sir, the roadmap of the NCC indicated who was supposed to participate in the process and that the Draft Constitution would end up here in Parliament.

Mr Speaker, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution should have taken the trouble of finding out what the terms of reference for the NCC were.  The terms of reference for the Mvunga, Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba Constitution Review Commissions are readily available. The Constitution-making process has taken so long. That is why people are now expressing their concerns. Some people are saying that this issue should not be politicised and that political mileage should not be gained out of it. I do not agree with such sentiments because there is no political mileage that can be gained out of this issue. There are groupings like the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), church organisations and non-governmental organisations (NGOs) which are pressuring for the enactment of a new Constitution. What political mileage are they going to gain out of what they are doing?

Mr Speaker, I would like to advise the PF not to trivialise this issue. This is timely advice because they are dealing with God’s people who put them in power. The hon. Minister of Justice indicated that when they came into Government, they did not know the problems that were being faced by the country. I feel sorry for my brother and I think it was a slip of the tongue. He must have said that they have been spending time destroying what was left by the MMD.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, I have evidence why I am saying so. In 2011, the price of a 25 kg bag of mealie meal in Lusaka was K46. In 2012, it went to K48.

Hon. Back-Benchers: Roadmap.

Mr Pande: Sir, in 2013, it was K56. In 2014, the price is at K70.

Hon. Back- Benchers: Is that the roadmap?

Mr Pande: Sir, I am commenting on what the hon. Minister of Justice said regarding the roadmap. When you come to the maize production, between 2010 and 2011, it was 3 million tonnes. Between 2011 and 2012, it dropped to 2.8 million tonnes. Between 2012 and 2013, it dropped to 2.6 million tonnes. It is most likely it will go down further. Let me talk about the exchange rate for the US Dollar. In 2011, it was at K4.80. In, 2012, it was at K5. In 2013, it was at K5.30 and as of now, it is at K6.10.

Mr Speaker, there is no roadmap as is being claimed by our colleagues. A roadmap must have a time frame. This is all that the people are asking for because they need the Constitution. Like I said earlier, they are dealing with God’s people. They should give them the roadmap so that they know the definite time when the document will come to the House. 

Sir, the Constitution-making process is the last chance that the PF has of coming back to power. 

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Pande: Sir, I am urging my colleagues, the PF, to reform. They have to be magnanimous and state what programme they have for the Constitution-making process. They have issues with the Constitution. They should state whether they will deliver it now or after 2016 so that the people of Zambia know what to do next. 

Mr Speaker, at the rate that the PF is going, what I said in 2011 that they must be a one-term Government will come to pass.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, issues of the Constitution world over are very emotive and capable of causing confusion in a country. We do not want that confusion. They should not trivialise this matter. 

Hon. Government Member: You were there!

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, I know that we should not respond to hecklers, but when people start saying that I was there in the MMD Government, I start to doubt the reasoning behind that. Are they now expecting me to fold my arms just because I was in the previous Government? I will not do that. I am now a stakeholder who should participate in the Constitution-making process freely. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Sir, they should not look at me as a former Minister in the previous Government. I am now just an ordinary Member of Parliament who is a stakeholder in the affairs of this country. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Pande: Mr Speaker, I would like to state that Zambians want the roadmap as well as the Constitution. I know that on your right, there are some who fully believe in what we are saying here. It is a pity that they cannot say it out loud because of what is called collective responsibility, which in the long run, could turn out to be collective irresponsibility. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Mr Speaker, I indicated that I would be very brief. I would want to end by urging the Government to come up with a roadmap with clear dates and time frames of when what will take place. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Sir, waiting for the President to receive the document cannot be a roadmap. Those are announcements being made. A roadmap must state that after the receipt of the document, it will go to a stage where it will take three months or whatever period and after that, it will go to Parliament on a stated date. This is the roadmap we are waiting for. 

Mr Speaker, in supporting the Motion, I urge the Government to give us a roadmap. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to join this debate. I consider it a rare privilege to be on the Floor of this House at a time when such an important matter has come up for deliberation.

As a student of law, Sir, I know that the issue of a people-driven Constitution that will stand the test of time has been vexing this nation for five decades now. I expect that when we come to debate such important matters we throw away our political partisan gowns that we wear and wear national colours of the aspirations of the people of this country who have been demanding for a people-driven Constitution that will stand the test of time since Independence.

Mr Speaker, it is sad to be in a House where when such an important matter has come up, but people adopt a posture of trivialising it. It is important that as much as we have divergent views on this issue, we project to the people who voted for us that we are taking it extremely serious because the people of this country out there are very expectant of positive deliberations in this House. This is the last point of hope for the people of this country.  

Sir, with that preface, allow me, since I am debating for the very first time on a Motion in this particular sitting, to congratulate the Member of Parliament for Katuba on his victory, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mr Mweetwa: … Hon. Shakafuswa, and also the people of Katuba on voting wisely as well as the thousands of people of Zambia who joined in the celebration over Hon. Shakafuswa and the United Party for National Development’s (UPND) victory. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, that was not the UPND’s victory alone, but also for the Opposition and the people of Zambia’s who have said that they cannot allow impunity to go unchecked. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the victory of Hon. Shakafuswa also shows that even if one abuses tax payers’ money by flying helicopters over a distance of 15 km from here to Katuba, the people do not vote for helicopters, but for issues. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, the people have also indicated that as a Ruling Party that should be in furtherance of democratic progression, when they lose, they must be graceful in defeat and not allege tribalism. They are just sore losers who have failed the people of Zambia and this is why they lost. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, allow me also to state from the outset that agitating for a new people-driven Constitution is in my view an act of nobility that is more rewarding than getting an allowance or any amount of money for saying or doing anything. This is the calling of a Member of Parliament. We are representing the people whose majority is demanding for a new people-driven Constitution which will stand the test of time. 

Sir, still on the test of time, I sat here a very worried and sad Member of Parliament, representing the people of Choma Central, listening to some debaters here adopting the debate of one another and yet their debates are very contradictory. 

Laughter 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, one debater said he was adopting the debate of the hon. Member for Lupososhi who in his discourse indicated to this House that we cannot have a Constitution that can stand the test of time because the aspirations of the people are dynamic. The person who adopted this debate said we want a constitution that will stand the test of time. This is a contradiction that is inherent in that PF Administration. 

Laughter 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, this is why their conduct is tantamount to political treachery to the people of this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, allow me to zero in on the Motion. 

First of all, there have been a lot of debates here in which I have heard people say that there is a roadmap. As far as I know, this House will never debate a matter in vain. For what would be the use of an hon. Member of Parliament, from the Ruling or Opposition parties bringing a Motion before this House to urge the Government, for instance, to create a ministry of finance when we can all see that there is already a Ministry of Finance? This House cannot entertain such an ill-conceived Motion. 

Sir, the only reason I believe this House allowed the Motion to prevail on the Floor of the House for debate urging the Government to bring forward a clear roadmap is the fact that it is in public domain. In other circles, I would say, it takes judicial notice that there is no roadmap. Hence, this Motion has been entertained by this House.  So, what colour of analysis would one …

Laugher

Mr Speaker: Order!

 Could the hon. Member for Choma Central withdraw that statement? You see, this is an emotive issue, but we should also still remember that we have a duty to exercise courtesy to our colleagues. We must exercise courtesy. We are honourable people hence, the reason we are called honourable. It is the term of art. Therefore, it expects a certain standard of behaviour. There is nothing lost by avoiding provocative phraseology. I have tried as much as I can to maintain a very calm and objective atmosphere. Let me remind you and I that we belong to a profession where we seek all the time to be honourable. It is not like these transitory arrangements, but for life. You may continue.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I would like to thank you for your guidance. 

Sir, my agitation for a new and people driven-Constitution stems far back from my life as a student at the law school and the kind of encouragement which I received from my lecturers that I must stand for what is right at all times. I am, therefore, very proud of my lecturers.

Hon. Government Members: Which one!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I would like to say that going by the events of the last few days in this House, I would like to adopt the words of Winston Churchill which are:

“Never have so few in this House stood for so many.” 

Sir, it is very clear that the majority of the people of Zambia want a new people-driven Constitution.

Sir, allow me to remind a few of my collegues in the PF and myself as to what a Constitution is. It is the fundamental or supreme law of a country that creates, allocates and clothes the arms of Government. It provides the powers which make it necessary for the Government to work. It sets up the machinery which is necessary for governance and economic development.

Sir, I would like to state why this Motion has been brought to the Floor of the House. Why should we demand for a roadmap? A roadmap is being demanded for by us primarily because of two reasons. The first one is that history is instructive.  We are walking on trodden paths. In the past, we would leave the Constitution-making process to be driven by those that are temporarily sitting on the saddles of power and hence, the process was prone to abuse.

Sir, secondly, we have been quietly waiting for the Executive to show the direction since they are merely facilitators and not givers of the Constitution on how they were going to drive this process. Suffice to say that the comments which have been coming from the Government Members and the Head of State have not only been very alarming, but also provocative to all those who believe that time has come for us to stand up and demand for a new people-driven Constitution.

Mr Speaker, a roadmap will give us time frames and targets which are forseeable and realisable. What I have seen from the PF Government are statements that are not only worrying, but actually intend to undermine the whole process. We have heard the President say, “We have a functional Constitution and, therefore, there is no vacuum. Why are you agitating for a Constitution?” Yet, this is a man who stood side by side with the UPND and the people of Zambia demanding for the enactment of a new Constitution.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, the current Constitution needs to be amended for various reasons. Primarily, a Constitution is intrinsically, inextricably and symbiotically related to the economic development and good governance of a country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, therefore, when you have a President who says that the country already has a functional Constitution and yet, when he was in the Opposition, he used to say that he was going to deliver a new people-driven Constitution within ninety days, it is worrying.

Sir, the people of this country have been at loggerheads with the Public Order Act. I had to call for a meeting to resolve how hon. Members round the country could have meetings in their constituencies. This is all because of a defective Constitution.

Sir, during the by-election campaign in Katuba, the Republican President said that the people of Zambia cannot eat a Constitution. I felt very sad when I heard such pronouncements coming from the Head of State.  Speaking as a Zambian, I was actually very embarrassed to belong to a country whose President does not understand the relationship between a good Constitution,  economic development and food on the table because …

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear,   

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Hon. Minister of Youth and Sport wait. I made a ruling earlier on. There was a flurry of points of order and I allowed them, but they undermined the debate. Hon. Member for Choma Central, you should try and avoid individualising your debates. I am sure that is a familiar idea. You can deal with the issues in the manner you deem fit, but do not individualise them. It does not matter who is involved. 

It was only the other day when I indicated that our proceedings are privileged because even if a person has a grievance, there is no remedy at all.  As a law student, you know better. I know that this is an emotive and topical issue. Quite frankly, as I see it, you seem to have made your point, but in case you have something new to say, I will allow you to continue.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I wanted to state that it is embarrassing for me, as a Zambian hon. Member of Parliament, to be part of a country’s administration that does not understand the glove and hand relationship between a good constitution, the economy and food on the table. The Constitution, as the grand norm or supreme law of a country, designs how the life of a country is going to be configured and, within that, allocates the powers that prescribe the nature of decisions that should be made.

Sir, we have seen the leadership of this country state before the nation and international community that those who are advocating for a people-driven Constitution should tell us where there is an animal-driven constitution. It is very sad and embarrassing for me, as a Zambian, to have such kind of leadership that does not understand that when people talk about a people-driven Constitution, they are talking about the people’s participation in the process. It is all about morality rather than legal legitimacy in the outcome of a Constitution-making process.

Mr Kalaba: On point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: You know my position, hon. Minister, on points of order.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, in my honest view, I sit here many times as a very demoralised hon. Member of Parliament. I am very saddened to sit in this House which the majority of Zambians think is the epitome of hope and that we can reverse the declining fortunes of this country. Yet, the arguments I hear in the debates in this House are below what we should have achieved in the fifty years of Zambia’s Independence. In my opinion, we should be above board in such matters.

Sir, I am a very sad hon. Member of Parliament. Being a student of very wise lecturers in the law school at the University of Zambia (UNZA), it is sad for me to sit here and hear some of the debates and arguments being fronted. It is just that I have to continue to represent the people of Choma Central. 

Sir, coming to my conclusion now …

Mr Speaker: You know, your lamentations have been extended. I am sure even the people of Choma Central are not expecting these lamentations. The Motion is quenched in very positive terms. It says we should urge the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of a new Constitution. Of course, you have the choice of how to debate, but you seem to be resigning.

Laughter

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, it is just that I want to stand by the principles of the lecturers who taught me.

Mr Shakafuswa: They are here.

Laughter 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I do not want to personalise anything. However, I was sad to hear what the hon. Minister of Justice had to say on this matter. The Ministry of Justice is supposed to be at the centre of steering the Constitution-making process forward and offering a platform of hope that this process is going to yield good tangible results. It is disappointing to listen to him say the PF made promises because they did not know the levels of corruption in this country.

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, he said that they did not know the levels of unemployment, amount of investment they had to make in infrastructure development and suffering of the people in this country. One begins to question the basis …

Mr Shakafuswa: Chimbwi no plan.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Katuba, leave the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: We will see you in June.

Mr Shakafuswa: Chimbwi no plan.

Laughter 

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, on what basis were our colleagues in the PF advocating to lead this country if they were not aware of all these fundamentals that should have formed the foundation of their claim for leadership? Analysing the submissions of the hon. Minister of Justice, if you allow me, I will say the PF went into Government without a plan. In vernacular, it is called chimbwi no plan. Now …

Mr Speaker: What does that mean?

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, it means a group of people who just move aimlessly and coincidentally find themselves in Government without a plan.

Mr Speaker: You are referring to whom?

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I am referring to the Ruling Party, the PF.

Mr Speaker: You are referring to them as what?

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, as a group of people who went into Government without a plan.

Mr Speaker: No, that is unacceptable.

Mr Mweetwa: I withdraw the statement, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: You know, I was reminding you of something just a moment ago.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: It is absolutely pointless to use such language. I do not want to hear this from anybody on the Floor of this House. It is does not matter how you value that statement or otherwise. I hope this is the last time I am hearing it.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your wise guidance and I do not wish to go back to that statement. I just want to state that hearing the debates on the Floor of this House on the necessity of the Government to provide a roadmap for the Constitution-making process, it is clear that there are no targets that are foreseeable and realisable. The people of this country should not only listen to political pronouncements, but know that there is a clearly spelt out legal framework on what is going to happen after the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has done its work. We do not want this process to be discredited like the NCC. Therefore, we demand that the PF Government gives us a roadmap on this process. 

Sir, as I conclude, I would like to urge, by way of demand, the PF Government to support this Motion. It has no other option in this matter.

Dr Mwali: Question!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, today, and for the first time, this Private Member’s Motion is going through. Whether our colleagues like it or not, they will have to support this Motion because they know that we stand for what is right and that they have been standing for what is wrong. Through our debate, they have realised that they have been standing for what is wrong and that we, the Opposition, stand with the people of Zambia. Therefore, they have no option, but to support this Motion. In the words of the hon. Minister of Finance, the PF Administration has the inescapable duty of supporting this Motion because it is in national interest.

Sir, it is with these few words that I demand and command those people on your right, through the mandate of the voters of Zambia, to support this Motion.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I stand to support this Motion, which I have noticed senior citizens or those knocking at the door of senior citizenship on your right have no difficult in supporting. This is how it is supposed to be. The jackets we wear, I think for once, should be put aside. We need to look at what is good for our nation. The Motion is simply urging the Executive to produce a roadmap for the Constitution-making process. Many of the previous debators have defined what a roadmap is based on the Oxford English Dictionary. For the sake of emphasis, it states that, “A roadmap is a document setting out procedures for achieving a particular goal.” For instance, there can be a roadmap for peace. In this case, we are requesting for a roadmap for the formulation of a Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I see further that there appears to be some form of mistrust. Let me urge the Ruling Party to look beyond what is stated in this Motion. 

Mr Speaker, at one time, I was in a team that was at your right hand side which attempted to produce a people-driven Constitution. History shows us that the Ruling Party refused to support the Constitution-making process when the MMD was in power. We are also aware that twenty-two of its hon. Members were expelled for doing a duty for which they were elected to this House. I mean that was a legal process.

Sir, if I am not mistaken, it might be the reason why there is seemingly resistance for them to come up with the roadmap. Now that they are in the driving seat, surely, they can see the benefit of having a roadmap. Why? It will hold the Executive accountable in terms of targets. They will be able to explain to the people of Zambia what they achieve at each stage. It will also help us to work better with the Executive in the Constitution-making process. At the expense of drawing Mr Speaker in to the debate, I wish to state eloquently that for a very long time, this journey has been travelled by many governments and yet we have not arrived yet, but shall be celebrating our Golden Jubilee. 

Mr Speaker, may I suggest that, maybe, His Excellency the President was misled in following the procedure of the Inquires Act, which stipulates that, when the appointing authority has appointed a committee or commission, it must report to the appointing authority. Perhaps this time around, instead of Cabinet sitting and deciding what should be in the Constitution, it should be the people to do so. I say this bearing in mind that the PF Manifesto stands for the upholding of the living standards of the people.

Sir, the enactment of the Constitution can be a good jubilee gift to the people. The hon. Minister of Justice came here to state that, in fact, the document has not been received by the President although the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has completed its work. We are demanding that this process be expedited and a roadmap be provided so that all the stages will be protected by a legal framework. The NCC had all that. We need to know what will happen when. At the end of the day, we need to give a precious gift to the people of Zambia.

Sir, why then has the Government chosen not to bring to this House a Constitution Bill like we did when we were in power? We are not asking for something that is totally new. Surely, this is something that can be done. It is harmless. If anything, it will help to guide the process.

Mr Speaker, how can we, then, remove this mistrust? One way to remove this mistrust is for us to debate and state our misgivings. In its response, the Executive should be able to reassure us that it will fulfil some of its promises regarding the Constitution. We need to protect the Constitution-making process with a legal document. Why has that not been done? 

Dr Kalila: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Sir, that is the basis for us urging the Executive to produce a roadmap. I have heard that there is a roadmap. I do not think what has been stated meets the definition of a roadmap. The hon. Minister of Justice stated that only when this document has been received will they think of what to do next. That is not good enough for a process which is so important.

Mr Speaker, if the people of Zambia are handed over the Constitution fifty years after Independence, surely, the PF will go down in history as having been a good Government. Why not seize this opportunity. This is why we are urging them to produce a roadmap. I do not know what the difficulties are.

Sir, planning is important. Before somebody builds a house or buys a car, he or she must plan. We know that in life, without a plan, what comes out after the construction can be anything and sometimes nothing at all. That is why we are urging the Executive to come up with a roadmap. If it is not useful to our colleagues, I wish to tell them that it will be useful to the Zambians who gave them the mandate to captain the ship. That is an honourable task that can be done without difficulties.

Mr Speaker, it is not too late for my suggestions to be considered. The Minister of Justice can craft a Constitution Bill which should be brought to this House. We shall debate, look at the time table and what needs to be achieved, and support the Bill.

Mr Speaker, secondly, obviously, in that roadmap will be the issue of costs. It will enable the Executive to look at sources of funding because the process is costly as we have heard. I have never heard of a democracy which is cheap. If it is the people of Zambia who need a particular process, then the Executive has been given a mandate to find the money and fulfil the wishes of the people.

Mr Speaker, thirdly, when we have looked into these things, time will be used in a beneficial manner rather than say at the late hour that we did not have enough time. 

Mr Speaker, this is a non-controversial Motion and I urge my colleagues to remove the mistrust which is construed as lying behind this Motion. Since we are in Government together, the Executive and the Opposition, we are just helping so that collectively, we can do better for the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I urge the Executive to support this Motion because that is the right thing to do.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to join my colleagues in debating this Motion. 

Mr Speaker, the problem with politicians in Zambia is that they do not want to dialogue. In most cases, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Colleagues, on the left, please, refrain from interfering with the debate. I am following you very closely. I could be looking in another direction, but following very closely all the running commentaries. I will not entertain them. So, if you cannot refrain yourself, I am afraid I will simply ask you to leave. Give him time to debate in quietness. I want everybody and not just the right, but also the left to do the same. 

The hon. Member for Mumbwa has just finished debating in total silence and has made his points. He has made his appeal. What is difficult in doing that? What do you lose in keeping silent, anyway? We have no time restrictions. The relevant Standing Orders have been suspended but, for some reason, we still want to stop others from debating. If you do not agree with them, make notes. I am sure that you are supplied with notepads. Make notes so that when he is through, you go back to him in a civil manner and say that, hon. Deputy Minister, I disagree with you on the following grounds, a, b, c, and d. For the time being, let him debate freely and in silence.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, political leaders in this country do not want to dialogue. Often times, they attack each other. When one issues a statement, another one counters it. That is not talking to each other. Talking to each other means dialoguing. When one on the opposite side says something that you do not like, talk to him personally. That is dialogue.

Mr Speaker, the first Constitution Review Commission to usher in the One Party State was headed by Mainza Chona. The Mvunga Commission was appointed to amend the One Party State Constitution. That was the roadmap.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, the Mwanakatwe Commission was appointed to correct and amend the Mvunga Constitution. That was the roadmap.

Laughter
    
Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, the Mung’omba Constitution Review Commission was never challenged. Its report was taken to the NCC in its entirety by His Excellency, the late President Levy Mwanawasa, SC. That was the time when we nearly scored as regards the change of the Constitution. However, what happened when that paper, which many people, apart from the PF, took part in putting together and committed themselves to, was brought here by the Executive? It did not pass.

Hon. Opposition Member: Were you there?

Mr Munkombwe: Yes, I was there and proudly so.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, the two clauses which were to be referred to the referendum were the 50 per cent plus 1, …

Mr Nkombo: It is 50 per cent plus 1

Mr Munkombwe: I thank you. It is 50 per cent plus 1. The two of them were supposed to be referred to a referendum. All the recommendations were passed through voting at the NCC. When we came here, ninety-three of us voted in favour when we needed 106 in order to allow the process to be sent to the referendum. Our colleagues in the UPND abstained and, therefore, they blocked any movement. Parliament is the main regulating point. They opted out and we are in this mess because of those people (pointing at the UPND Members).

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: No, the word ‘mess; is unparliamentary.

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, we are in this trouble now because of the lack of foresight by some of our colleagues in this country.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, you cannot push any Government anywhere. Those (pointing at the MMD) were in the Government and know what I am talking about. Governments do not rule under pressure.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: True.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, if you pressurise the Government, you are not scoring. What is required is dialogue and I am saying so with a great harvest of experience in this House ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … where I have spent most of my time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, you see, there is what is known as political reality.

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: You have already asked Mr Speaker to give me time. 

Mr Speaker, those that have been in the Government know what it means to engage the Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, the behavior of some hon. Members is acceptable because they have never been in Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, they perhaps have every reason to agitate for the Constitution. As for those colleagues in the MMD, I think that they should be fair. We want the process to be thorough. If you are not thorough, the result is not good. Let me refer to something which is historic. The African National Congress (ANC) of South Africa promised that within five years of its rule, it would build 1 million houses. Politicians, particularly at the campaigning stage, have a tendency of making promises which may not be attainable.

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh!

Mr Munkombwe: Yes!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, people need to focus on reality. 

Mr Speaker, a very good and straightforward Motion has been spoiled by some people from the Opposition. What are they demanding for? Who are they commanding? 

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, even when that Motion is very thorough and non- controversial, some people make it very controversial.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, it would be wrong for us now here to support that Motion because we would be doing so under duress.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, we would be doing so under the commanding voice of individuals. No proper Government should be pressurised into do something. 

Mr Speaker, I am from Choma, and some hon. Members from the Opposition are my hon. Members of Parliament. If you held a knife to my neck and told me that if I did not agree with you, you would kill me, I would spit in your face. This is a privileged House. We should know that even if outsiders give us instructions to behave in whatever form, they cannot …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … control our debates. We should be friendly and be able to dialogue. I want to tell my colleagues that when you are in Government, roadmaps, particularly those to do with the Constitution are very difficult to follow. There are some people in this country who want to get to Parliament when they are not prepared to be answerable to voters. They want to get to Parliament by the back door.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, there are people who are advocating for a Cabinet the comprises people from outside the House which will be answerable to their NGOs only and not to the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, I respect people who are voted for by people. It does not worry me if those people who are elected are in the Opposition because the people resolved to elect them as their leaders. We are not elected to advocate for anarchy. I do not know whether ‘anarchy’ is the right word to use. I am not sure. 

Mr Speaker, in my twenty-six-and-a-half years, I have never been sent out of the House. I have never been asked to go out. I have been ruled out of order, of course, but my speech has never been curtailed. The records are there to show this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, that has been the case because I think that I follow the rules. Yes, sometimes I am temperamental, but I am a sober person. Please, let us follow the roadmap properly. Those from the Opposition should not command the Government to do something. We will resist their commands. They should not command us because that will cause us to resist supporting the good Motion which has been moved by the brilliant young man, the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central. 

Mr Nkombo tried to raise a point of order.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, sorry, not young man, but brilliant hon. Member of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Sit down, there is no point of order.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Mazabuka Central has placed me in a difficult position. I do not know where he is coming from, but all I can say is that the hon. Deputy Minister has complimented him. I do not think that the epithet ‘young’ should be an issue. I hope it is not. I think that the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central knows that I am not allowing points of order to be raised. I believe that the statement made by the hon. Deputy Minister for the Southern Province is in good faith. I will only allow you to make a point of order if there is something else you need to say. If it is not about something else, I am afraid, my ruling still stands.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, if there are five people that I respect in that corner, he is one of them (pointing to Hon. Nkombo).

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us limit it at that because we might violate the rule of debating individuals. If you can, please, just get down to the Motion.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, debates such as the one we are having should be encouraged because the Government is very willing to have this Constitution problem resolved. However, if we are going to be told to do it now, we will also direct our friends, those who wanted to support the Motion not to do so.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for this opportunity. I am representing the people of Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency, where Hon. Simuusa and Hon. Munkombwe hail from. 

Mr Speaker, I have been directed by the people of Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency to state as follows …

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members on the right, we have made a lot of progress so far. Let us continue making progress. We will not make progress if you take the disposition where you invite me to interject and begin enforcing discipline. We will waste more time and all of us will stay here much longer than is necessary. I have no problem with what time we will leave anyway, but let us be efficient. Let us have some order.

Hon. Member for Mbabala, you may continue.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for your guidance.

Mr Speaker, I will not be any time longer than is absolutely necessary on the Floor of this House because the matter at hand is very clear. The people of Zambia want a Constitution now, and not at the pace that the PF Government wants it. However, unfortunately, what has brought us to where we are today is the PF Government’s wanting to hold the Zambian people at ransom. They want to make us believe that we will have the Constitution at the pace that they want, which should not be the case. I think this is what has brought us to where we are, and why we have this Motion before us. 

Mr Speaker, going by what was said last Friday and the days before that, I think this country is now in a quandary. The hon. Minister of Justice came here with bids …

Laughter 

Mr Belemu: … and told us that there will be a roadmap once the President has accepted or received the report. That is as if somebody has stopped him from receiving the report. Who has stopped him from receiving the report, Sir? There is no one. It is they themselves who have decided not to receive the Report of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution.

Sir, within a short space of time, another hon. Member from the PF stood up on the Floor of this House and said that there was a roadmap. To prove that, he gave an example of a conference which he attended. 

Mr Speaker, we know what a roadmap is. It is not going to a conference and after eating enough rice, you say, “This is now a roadmap.”

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Sir, eating rice at a conference is not a roadmap.

Hon. Government Members: Naukolwa!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, you advise very well. You said that if we are to summarise this Motion, the underlining word is ‘roadmap’. We know what a roadmap looks like since my colleagues have already defined it. A roadmap, in simple terms is a detailed plan which must have very clear milestones, dates and budgets. So, where is the roadmap which is being referred to by the hon. Members of the PF? Where is the time frame for the enactment of this Constitution? Where is the budget for the enactment of the Constitution? What are the issues around it?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, clearly, there is no roadmap under the PF, and as my colleague from Choma, Hon. Mweetwa, said, we would not have been here this late if there was a roadmap. Others have attempted to talk about the roadmap of 1973, 1972, 1980 and so on and so forth. 

Laughter

Mr Mwila: Nakolwa uyu!

Mr Belemu: Sir, I know how a roadmap looks like. That is not a roadmap. Those are just mere years in our lifetime.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, the dilemma which has brought us where we are now is that the PF has used every trick to delay this process. That is why we are here talking about a roadmap. If it were not for that case, we would not have been here. 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, they have used every form of deception to make us believe that there was a roadmap. At one moment, they say there is a roadmap and at another, they say that there is no roadmap and that there will only be a roadmap once the President has received the report. They are trivialising the matter of the Constitution which, to us, should be sacred in this nation. That is why we are here.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, they have done everything that they could to curtail debate. We heard about the President’s instruction that no one must discuss or debate the Constitution while they want to make us believe that there is a roadmap. So, where is the roadmap if the President is telling people not to discuss issues to do with the Constitution of the Republic? Where is the roadmap?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, having come from Katuba where I went to congratulate Hon. Shakafuswa, I would have known that there was a roadmap because that is where we heard everything. We were told that people cannot eat the Constitution. So, is that statement a roadmap? Tell us, wee.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I committed myself to not take longer than is absolutely necessary. The matter at hand is very clear. The PF has tried to demonise everyone who has spoken on the Constitution as if it is their document. As my colleagues have said, this is a people …

Mr Speaker: Order!

  Earlier on, I said the word ‘demonise’ is not appropriate. I think I made it in reference to what a colleague on my right said and I still maintain that position.

  Please, continue as you conclude.

  Interruptions 

  Mr Belemu: I thank you for your guidance, Mr Speaker.

  Sir, I am trying to look for the word which is equal to that word I used. The members of the PF have tried to trivialise everything regarding the Constitution in this country. That is why we are here.

  Sir, a number of my colleagues on your right have tried to give us an indication that they had a roadmap of some kind. We want to disagree with them because there is nothing that looks like a roadmap in this country. Therefore, we urge them to come up with a roadmap. It is as simple as that. The matter at hand, like I said, is very straightforward. It is the last opportunity that we are giving them to create a roadmap for this Constitution.

  Mr Speaker, I want to agree with the seconder of the Motion who said that the die is now cast.

  Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

  Mr Belemu: We have crossed a rubicon regarding the Constitution. It is up to the Government to make a choice. It is either they provide a roadmap and eventually the Constitution to the nation or they are booted out.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: By who?

Rev. Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: In the end!

Interruptions 

Mr Belemu: Sir, they are asking, “By who?” If they do not know what it means to be in Government, why should they stay any longer in power?

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, by the confession of the learned hon. Minister of Justice who has been decorated by the order of distinguished service in this country, it is clear that they did not know what it meant to form Government. Why then do they still want to stay in power?

Mr Mwiimbu: The decorated lie!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, the writing is on the wall regarding those people. They are going.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

Mr Belemu: Sir, we are asking for the Constitution …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: … because it is ours. It is not theirs alone. It is for the Zambian people whom we all represent.

Mr Speaker, this is the last time that the PF must be allowed to hold this country at ransom.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Sir, let them give us a roadmap today other than those things they are talking about. Eating rice in conferences cannot be a roadmap. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, we have been advised not to command them to give us the Constitution. Since I am the elected representative of the people of Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency, I want to command the PF Government to provide a roadmap now …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!{mospagebreak}

Mr Belemu: … or else they should leave the Executive for people that are able to govern this country better than them. 

Mr Speaker, like I said, I am not going to take long. Those people have clearly failed to provide a roadmap. That is why we are still here debating the Motion. That is why we are here. They have failed to deliver a people-driven Constitution. Hon. Wilbur Simuusa will agree with me that we need a roadmap today and not tomorrow.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, withdraw Hon. Simuusa from your statement. 

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, I withdraw his name. He is my elder brother. That is why I used his name.

Mr Speaker: Yes, precisely. 

Even if he is your elder brother, he is an hon. Member of Parliament. Do not drag him into your debate unnecessarily. Speak for yourself and, if need be, the people of Mbabala. That is all. He also has a constituency to speak for.

The hon. Member for Senga Hill.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, I will not take long. I want to start by saying that personally, I am very disappointed. I say so because, if you remember, when the PF won the elections, in my maiden speech, I said that I was so happy that Mr Sata had won. 

Interruptions

Mr Simbao: Sir, people can confirm what I said by checking the verbatim records. I said so and somebody from the Government complimented me. I said so because we ushered in a man known to be ‘a man of action’ and from the beginning, he started well with very firm commitments. I, like many others, believed in him. I was positive that he was going to deliver the Constitution within ninety days as he had said. However, he has begun shifting positions. I am disappointed because I believed Mr Sata meant what he said, but he has failed to deliver. 

Sir, I would like to take Mr Sata seriously … 

Mr Mushanga: President!

Mr Simbao: Sir, I wonder who has been at the forefront of making him change, especially on issues that are difficult. Issues about the Constitution are not easy ones. Everyone knew that from the beginning. Therefore, we were all surprised when the President said he could deliver the Constitution within ninety days. However, I am not surprised anymore. I am just disappointed that none of us is expecting to see a Constitution before 2016. 

Mr Speaker, I think that, maybe, our side is failing to make the other side understand what a roadmap means. We need the roadmap because we want to see the process come to an end. We have been working on the Constitution for two-and-a-half years. We cannot work without any deadline. Everything that surrounds this Constitution is shrouded in secrecy. We are not clear on what is going on anymore. We hear that the Draft Constitution has been completed. The Draft Constitution has not been handed over to somebody. All this other stuff that is being talked about is confusing. It is confusing not only to us, but also the entire country. 

Sir, from 2001, we have made people understand that we do not have a good Constitution. It is for this reason that the Constitution-making process was started. We can see the people of Zambia not getting their Constitution before 2016. 

Mr Speaker, where is the problem? What I remember is that when the PF was in the Opposition, they demanded that the MMD, which was in Government at the time, deliver the Constitution. They wanted it delivered through a constituent assembly. The Government then opted to go for the NCC which was seen to be equal to a constituent assembly. 

Sir, at the time the PF came into power, they found everything there. It was for that reason that we were told that the committee would take less than ninety days to deliver the Constitution. What has really gone wrong? We want to know what the problem is and why we are failing to give the Zambian people a new Constitution. They know that we have spent a lot of money on the Constitution-making process, but nothing is coming out of it. We have heard the pronouncements regarding the Constitution-making process. However, now, we feel that if we keep quiet on this side, the Draft Constitution will be shelved and forgotten.

Mr Speaker, I do not know why we are learning now that we have had a good Constitution since 2001. Why so late? This was a very big issue for both the Opposition and the civil society organisations when the MMD was in power. I do not know why those in power should only now realise that we have a good Constitution. 

Sir, my disappointment, as Member of Parliament for Senga Hill, is that I thought that the Constitution-making process would be behind us by now. We should have given a good Constitution to the Zambian people by now. Since this has not been the case, the best thing to do would be to give us a roadmap which will tell us when the whole process will come to an end so that we can make progress. Without that, it will be very difficult from today onwards for people to follow the process. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: We have been debating this Motion since 1540 hours this afternoon and as Speaker, I have been following the debates very closely. I have heard all that has been said, both on the left and the right. I am satisfied that the central issues have all been addressed and I think there comes a time when you come to an end of anything. There is a season for everything and I think we have come to a point where even our beloved people beyond the precincts of the National Assembly, those who have been following the debates since 1540, have heard all that has to be said by you, as their representatives.

As the ultimate manager of this debate, I now find it absolutely necessary to bring it, not to a close, but to begin a process of doing so. This debate will close in this fashion. The Hon. Minister of Home Affairs has been requested to respond to the Motion and indicate what the Government position is on this matter. I think his response, whatever form it will take, will obviously determine how we will eventually close this particular Motion.

Therefore, it is my rare privilege to call upon Hon. Dr. Simbyakula, Minister of Home Affairs, to now wind up on behalf of the Government. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Of course I am mindful about Hon. Nkombo who still has to play a role. 

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for permitting me to speak on behalf of the Executive. I would like to begin by just clarifying why we said that the Constitution could be delivered within ninety days. 

Sir, at Page 42 of our manifesto, we pledged to the Zambian people that we would establish, in consultation with stakeholders, a committee of experts to review the recommendations of all previous Constitution Review Commissions in order to draft a Constitution. That undertaking was premised on our sincere belief that there was enough raw material which had been collected over the years from the Zambian people by previous review commissions. 

  Sir, we sincerely believed that with such raw material in abundance, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution would draft a Constitution within a very short period of time. As the hon. Member for Solwezi East pointed out, there are several drafts of Constitutions. We sincerely believed then and still believe that the committee would easily draft the Constitution. However, the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution decided, in its programme of work, to carry out consultations countrywide, across the length and breadth of Zambia. We could have put our foot down and insisted that the committee simply drafts the Constitution, which they could have within a very short possible period of time. As we said, the previous commissions had consulted the people of Zambia. We, in the PF, believe in the old adage, vox populi, vox Dei. This means that the voice of the people is the voice of God. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, since we wanted to be democratic, we embraced the suggestion from the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution wholeheartedly because that meant that the process was going to be people driven. We said, “Go forth” and facilitated their work. From that moment, the Committee had been driving the process in a very transparent manner. There has been no hidden hand on the part of the Government. Even hon. Members on your left participated in the process, happily for that matter at the district consultative forums, provincial conventions, sector groups or the national convention levels. Some sections of our society have been calling for the enactment of a law to protect the content. We have been through that path before. It is said that those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, it is only when we have understood our past that we can understand the present. Once we have understood the present, only then can we avoid the pitfalls and properly plan for a better tomorrow. The previous administration enacted the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) Act No. 17 of 2007. Where did it take us? Most of the Zambian people saw it for what it was, a flawed process. The NCC had a built-in majority in favour of the then, Ruling Party. The NCC was a poisoned tree. That is why the Non-Governmental Organisation Co-ordinating Committee (NGOCC), Law Association of Zambia and, indeed, many other stakeholders, including the Patriotic Front (PF), refused to give credence to a process that was manifestly flawed. Others chose to join the then Ruling Party in partaking of the fruit from the poisoned tree.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, even some within our own ranks succumbed to the temptation and partook in the fruit from the poisoned tree.

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, that incident nearly crippled the PF. The PF would have ceased to exist, but God is great.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, we survived. The wages of eating a fruit from a poisoned tree is doom as my hon. Friend for …

Mr Speaker: Lukulu West!

Dr Simbyakula: … Lukulu West would say. Where are those who ate from the fruit? 

Hon. Government Members: Doomed!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, I have no doubt in my mind that had we, as the PF succumbed to that temptation to partake of the fruit from the poisoned tree, we would certainly not be sitting on your right hand side today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, the best protectors of the process are the people themselves. The Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution is just about to hand over the Draft Constitution and their report. 

Mr Speaker, we have now reached a critical point in the process. We are at the crossroads. This is the process we call adoption. It is a make or break point. All the previous attempts at Constitution-Making in Zambia have been flawed at this very point. Let us not let this opportunity elude us again. 

Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, incumbent upon all of us, both on your left and right and others out there, to desist from politicising the Constitution-making process or to be playing to the gallery as if there is a Constitution crisis in Zambia. Let us approach this matter calmly and honestly. The process of Constitution-making is not a partisan matter. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, this Government has consistently said that the Constitution-making process is on-going. Once the Draft Constitution has been submitted to the President, the Government in consultation with various stakeholders will guide the way forward. That is the roadmap.

Mr Mwale: Question!

Dr Simbyakula: We, as a nation, have already spent colossal sums of resources to reach this far. We cannot afford to fail now. We must be very careful with the mode of adoption we shall opt to choose. A referendum is not as simple as some would like to put it. The way a referendum works is that every voter is required in a voter’s booth to answer a question which is framed in such a way as to yield a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer to the whole document. It is not like a multiple choice question paper where the voter goes clause by clause indicating ‘yes” or ‘no’ to each question. It is simply, “saying ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to the whole document. Therefore, when we go to a referendum, we must ensure that its likelihood of delivering what the Zambian people want is high. If a referendum is properly handled, it can be a perfect mode of adopting a Constitution. On the other hand, it also has potential pitfalls. We could have a very progressive Constitution, but just one clause can cause the entire document to be rejected. I can liken a referendum process to eating groundnuts.

Ms Lubezhi: Question!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, if you put a handful of groundnuts in your mouth and one groundnut is rotten, what do you do? You will spit out everything. What I am saying, Mr Speaker, is that as we go to the referendum, all stakeholders must be agreed on the content. We must agree on the provisions that are workable in Zambia and not just imported from elsewhere.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, the success or failure of the referendum will depend on the ability of each stakeholder to galvanise the voters to their point of view. If that does not happen, we may have problems. Is that what we want? That could happen in Zambia if we do not reach a consensus. We have seen referendums fail in other countries not too far away from Zambia. This is because they failed to agree on the content and others started campaigning against it, while others were for it.

Mr Speaker, we are saying that the roadmap is there. Once the Draft Constitution has been submitted, those in Government have said it, again and again, that in consultation with various stakeholders, they will guide the way forward, including on such issues as the framing of the referendum questions.

Mr Speaker, instead of the Motion urging the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of a new Constitution, I urge our colleagues on your left and others to partner with the Government in good faith. We need to build consensus …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: … so that we can give ourselves a Constitution that will truly stand the test of time and will even make our children’s children be proud of us. 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, there is no Constitution crisis in Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Nothing.

Dr Simbyakula: Sir, let reason prevail. Let us build consensus. I am sure I speak for all of us when I say that we are all looking forward to a happy ending to this story. We see no reason of why they should urge us to do something when, in fact, we are doing exactly what the Motion is urging us to do.
 
Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for, first of all, allowing this Motion to see the light of day in this House. What I picked from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs when he reiterated a few of the comments that hon. Members of the PF have intimated through this Motion is that there is a roadmap that exists. To me this depicts that the administration of the Constitution-making process is flawed because had there been a roadmap, this Motion would not have been allowed to see the light of day. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: That is my quick preamble.

Sir, in the debates, never did I hear any hon. Member from the Opposition side talk about a Constitution crisis. So, the fact that they have talked about there being no Constitution crisis does not warrant the fact that we have been living in a dilemma of a new Constitution eluding us for forty-two years. 

Mr Speaker, as I wind down the Motion that I raised, I would like to remind ourselves that as legislators, we are hon. Members of Parliament with specific duties and responsibilities which is to legislate, provide oversight and also to represent our people.  I think I must thank all the hon. Members of Parliament on this side and also on that side for debating this particular Motion in a truthful way in certain instances and in a deceptive way in other instances.

Mr Mweetwa: Traitors!

Ms Imenda: Hear, hear! 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, there was a statement that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs put across to you and he actually interpreted it from Latin to English.

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I will say it in English because I heard him translate it. He said that the voice of the people is the voice of God. That is perfect and is accepted. I want to tell him in one of the Zambian languages that neyi mukwenu nakukudimba kukutambika, eyi wumudimbi kumwitiya.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, those who understand what I have said will know what I mean.

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell us.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, it means donchi kubeba …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: … which means say one thing and do the opposite.

Mr Speaker, neyi mukwenu nakukudimba kukutambika, eyi wumudimbi kumwitiya.’

Laughter

Mr Speaker: What language is that?

Mr Nkombo: Sir, it is Lunda …

Mr Speaker: Okay.

Mr Nkombo: … from the North-Western Province. 

Mr Mweetwa: Meaning they are liars, is it not so?

Mr Nkombo: Sir, it seems that the hon. Members from the Executive wing of Government do not want to be held accountable, especially when they say things outside the Floor of this House. I wish to thank hon. Members on this side, for trying to …

Ms Imenda: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … help the Executive understand the need for a roadmap. The Executive is a stronger wing of the three arms of Government. Today is a very special day for me because I have exposed the PF.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I have exposed the PF Government to the fact that it vacillates.

Mr Mweetwa: They are liars.

Mr Speaker: Whoever used the word ‘liars’ should stand up honorably and withdraw the word and apologise.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I withdraw the fact that those people are liars.

Mr Speaker: No, hon. Member for Choma Central, that is unacceptable. Do the right thing.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I apologise and withdraw the statement that I made that they are liars.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Thank you. May the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central continue.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the integral part of my Motion, as you correctly put it, was a roadmap. A  roadmap dwells on time frames or trajectories. That PF has allowed itself to be exposed to the people of this country. There is not even a short, medium or long-term trajectory which has been given to us here in this House.    

Mr Speaker, we are in a democracy where people make judgments of their own. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, to make choices between the good …

Hon. UPND Members: And the bad!

Mr Nkombo: … and the bad. 

Sir, we are the mirror image of those people whose interests and aspirations we represent here. What we do when we are out there must reflect what we say when we are inside here. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I want to end by going through what the hon. Minister of Home Affairs said that the PF pledged to give a good Constitution to the Zambian people. It is about this same neyi mukwenu nakukudimba kukutambika, eyi wumudimbi kumwitiya.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I want to put it to him through you, Sir, that they did not pledge, but play the Zambian people. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, they made the Zambian people believe that they are honest human beings. They have fallen on their sword. There many promises that they made have fallen belly down with them. All I can say is that there shall be a point of reckoning. 

Hon. Government Members: None!

Mr Nkombo: There will be a point of reckoning. 

Mr Speaker:  Continue hon. Member. 

Mr Nkombo: Sir, we must operate honestly. 

Sir, I dare the Zambian people to take the entire transcript of today’s deliberations in order to understand the different positions that each and every Member of the PF has on this matter. Mr Kabimba’s position is totally different from that of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, according to my interpretation of the things that they said …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, I indicated very clearly and in no uncertain terms, that I was inviting Hon. Dr Simbyakula to sum up on behalf of the Government. I also mentioned when the hon. Minister of Justice spoke that he was speaking at that juncture because he had a commitment outside the country and he was entitled to debate. 

Sir, I think that in all fairness, I disclosed the fact that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs would speak on behalf of the hon. Minister of Justice whatever contradictions you may have perceived in the entire debate. Besides that hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, you are winding up a Motion. You are winding up a Motion so, if you begin opening a Pandora’s Box, we could go on and on. 

You may continue.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the truth has no disguise as you know. It always sprouts out. The truth …

Dr Scott interjected.

Mr Nkombo: Dr Scott, give me a chance man, come on. 

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I need your protection because His Honour the Vice-President …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, …

Mr Nkombo: Sir, talk to him. He is the one who is interjecting.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: No. You see, this is where you are getting it wrong. You want my intercession and out of courtesy I am addressing you as hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, but even before I complete my statement you are commanding me to talk to His Honour the Vice-President. Is that how we are going to transact business? Did you even know what I was going to say? I merely addressed you. 

You see, we have come to the end of this Motion. You know how these motions are ordinarily brought to an end. They should end on controversial notes. There is no justification for that. Please, hon. Members on my right, …

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Speaker: No, it is my discretion. 

Let us come to a close. We are virtually on the verge of concluding this business. Let us practice some self-discipline and some patience. 

You may continue. 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we are going to a vote any moment from now because my feeling is that my colleagues on the right-hand side are going to shoot down a very noble Motion. 

Sir, today marks 888 days since the PF made the first commitment inside the realms of power. If we waited just for another twelve days, we would have to divide by ten to know that the ninety- day promise was a fallacy, hoax, untruthful and madimbeka, meaning a camouflage of themselves. 

I want to thank hon. Members of Parliament, especially those who supported this Motion. They will be remembered, some of  them posthumously …

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: … because the Constitution is not for dinosaurs. We are trying to design this Constitution even for the unborn. 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, those who are saying “Aah, aah, aah”, are going to have themselves to blame when the time of reckoning does arrive and it shall surely arrive. 

Sir, I thank you for allowing this Motion to be debated on the Floor of this House. It is one of those motions preceded by disturbances. Sometimes, you have to do drastic things in order for people to pay attention. Now, we leave it up to the Zambian people because we are adjourning today and I think that we have done our part earnestly, honestly and diligently.  

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: For this moment, you can vote whichever way you want, but what we want is a constitution. Do not try to play games. We shall defeat you today (hitting the table with his right fist). 

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: Do not even gesticulate like that, telling me to go away. We will defeat you today. 

Sir, I am ready now for the vote. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

_____

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that dinner for hon. Members of Parliament will be served at Parliament Buildings in the restaurant, when the House eventually adjourns. 

______

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division. 

Question, that this House urges the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of the new Constitution and also to expedite the process considering that the work of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has been completed and is ready for submission put and the House voted.

Ayes – (42)

Mr C. Antonio 
Mr I. Banda 
Mr W. Banda 
Mr Belemu 
Mr Chipungu 
Mr Chitafu
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo 
Mrs A. Chungu 
Mr Habeenzu 
Mr Hamududu 
Mr Hamusonde 
Mr Katambo 
Mr Katuka 
Mr Kunda 
Lombanya 
Mr Livune 
Ms Lubezhi 
Mr Lufuma 
Mr Mbulakulima 
Mr Milambo 
Mr Miyanda 
Mr Miyutu 
Mr Mooya 
Mr Mtolo 
Mr Muchima 
Mr Mufalali 
Mr Mulomba 
Mr Muntanga 
Dr Musokotwane 
Mr Mwanza 
Mr Mweetwa 
Mr Mwiimbu 
Ms Namugala 
Mr Ndalamei Mr
Mr L. J. Ngoma 
Mr Nkombo 
Mr Pande 
Mr Phiri  
Lt-Gen Shikapwasha 
Mr Sianga 
Mr Simbao 
Mr Sing’ombe 

Tellers for Ayes:    Mr Hamududu
            Mrs Kabanshi

Noes – (69)

Ms E. Banda 
Mr Bwalya 
Colonel Chanda 
Mr Chansa 
Mr Chenda 
Dr Chilufya 
Mr Chikwanda 
Mr Chilangwa 
Mr Chingimbu 
Mr Chishimba 
Mr Chitotela 
Mr S. Chungu 
Ms Kabanshi 
Mr Kalaba 
Mr Kambwili 
Mr Kampyongo 
Mr Kansembe 
Brig-Gen Kapaya 
Mr Kapeya 
Mr Kapyanga 
Dr Katema 
Mr Kazabu 
Ms Kazunga 
Mr Kosamu 
Mr Kufuna 
Ms Limata 
Mr Lubinda 
Dr Lungu 
Colonel Lungu 
Professor Luo 
Mr M. H. Malama 
Mrs Masebo 
Mr Mbulu 
Mr Monde 
Mrs Mphande 
Mr Mpundu 
Mr Mubukwanu 
 Mr Mukata 
Mr Mulenga 
Mr Mumba 
Mr Munkombwe 
Mr Mushanga 
Mr Musonda 
Mr Musukwa 
Mr Mutale 
Dr Mwali 
Mr Mwaliteta 
Mr Mwango 
Mr Mwenya 
Mr Mwila 
Mr P. A. Ngoma 
Mr Ng’onga 
Mr Njeulu 
Dr Phiri 
Mr Sampa 
Dr Scott 
Mr Shamenda 
Mr Siamunene 
Mr Sichinga 
Mr Sichone 
Mr Sichula 
Mr Sikazwe 
Dr Simbyakula 
Mr Simuusa 
Mr Taundi 
Mr Tembo 
Professor Willombe 
Mr Zimba 
Mr Zulu 

Tellers for noes:    Mr Kambwili
            Ms M. Lubezhi

Abstentions – (02)

Mr C. K. Banda 
Mr M. D. Lungu 

Question, that this House urges the Government to provide a roadmap for the enactment of the new Constitution and also to expedite the process considering that the work of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Constitution has been completed and is ready for submission put and negatived.

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

The Vice-President (Dr Scott): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.

Question put and agreed to.

________

The House adjourned accordingly at 2128 hours on Tuesday, 11th March, 2014, sine die.

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION

ZAPD LAYS OFFS

429. Dr Kaingu (Mwandi) asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health:

(a)    why the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disability (ZAPD) laid off more than seventy employees who are disabled;

(b)    whether the terminal benefits paid were sufficient to keep the former employees off the street since their source of livelihood depended entirely on the employment; and

(c)    why the Government did not protect the disabled people from being laid off as they did with Konkola Copper Mine (KCM) employees who were about to be laid off in 2013. 

The Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Dr Katema): Mr Speaker, ZAPD was established to plan, promote and administer services to persons with disabilities. However, ZAPD had been facing a number of operational challenges as the institution was not able to deliver quality and effective services to persons with disabilities who constitute about 1,300,000 of the total Zambian population.

Sir, in addition, the farm centres were no longer productive and were not benefiting many of the persons with disabilities in the country. In short, the ZAPD farm centres were no longer cost effective as everything was going to administration expenses and not production.

Mr Speaker, assessments were done and proved that in the best interest of the one million plus persons with disabilities, the institution should be restructured and qualified staff be employed to serve persons with disabilities. The restructuring exercise was done in the spirit of providing quality and effective services to the many disabled people in the country.

Sir, the separation packages which were paid to the retrenchees were in accordance with the Zambian Labour Laws and also included a pension component for those eligible based on their contributions to the National Pension Scheme Authourity. The terminal benefits were calculated based on the conditions of service for each employee. Consequently, all the employees accepted the packages and were paid accordingly.

Mr Speaker, the  Government’s concern was that the majority of vulnerable persons living with disabilities on the street and in communities were not being served by the institution which was established to provide services to persons with disabilities. Therefore, in an effort to provide effective and efficient services, it was inevitable and cost effective to restructure ZAPD and ensure that all the production centres are contributing to the welfare of all persons with disabilities and not only the few who were employed and receiving a guaranteed monthly salary without being productive.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.