Debates - Tuesday, 18th November, 2014

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Tuesday, 18th November, 2014

The House met at 1400 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]  






227. Mr Antonio (Kaoma Central) asked the Minister of Justice when the outstanding retirement benefits for civil servants who retired in 1997/1998 would be paid, considering that the court had now ruled in their favour. 

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Mukata): Mr Speaker, in the case of Nasando Isikanda and 3,523 others vs the Attorney-General 2002/HP/1055, the Government has, so far, paid K526,261,657.16 to the former civil servants through their lawyers. Therefore, according to the record at the Ministry of Justice, the Government completed paying the retirees by February, 2014. However, the plaintiffs applied for assessment on the disputed amount on alleged underpayment and the matter will be coming up in court on Friday, 21st November, 2014, to set the date for assessment. 

Mr Speaker, with regards to cases John Muyoya and 8,000 others vs the Attorney-General 2003/HP/0245; Victor Simusamba and 11,577 others vs the Attorney-General 2007/HP/0851 and Francis Mukatasha and others vs the Attorney-General 2009/HN/30, the matter is still in court before Honourable Charles Kafunda and is scheduled for assessment of long service bonuses. 

At the last hearing of the matter, the plaintiffs’ advocates were asked to agree among themselves and verify the exact number of clients each of them was representing. The Ministry of Justice has, thus far, received verified lists of plaintiffs from two law firms. The matter comes up for a status conference on 26th November, 2014.

I thank you, Sir. 

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, some retirees get as little as K50 or K100 monthly pension, which is not even enough to cover transport fees. Hon. Minister, when are you going to upgrade this retirement package for retirees to, at least, earn a living wage? 

Mr Speaker: That is not a supplementary question. 

Hon. Member for Moomba, you may pose your question. 

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, if my calculation is correct, sixteen years have gone by without payment. I would like to know, if possible, the detail of the delay in payment and when the matter will be concluded? 

Mr Mukata: Mr Speaker, there are a number of matters here and this is why we split them in two. The first cause is 2002/HP/1055, and if we extrapolate in terms of years, we will be talking about, perhaps, twelve years. 

Mr Mooya interjected. 

Mr Mukata: Yes, inordinate as it may be, it is the due process of the law. The matters were before court. Perhaps, it was a process of trials and other applications and adjournments that occurred, but we did not direct our attention to the specifics in terms of the delay. The other causes are 2003/HP/0245 and 2007/HP/0851. Matters do take some time in court, but the wheels of justice turn anyway. 

I thank you, Sir. 


228. Mr I. Banda (Lumezi) asked the Minister of Tourism and Art whether the Government had any plans to degazette part of Lukusuzi National Park in Mwase-Mphangwe and Chikomeni Chiefdoms in order to create more land for the growing population. 

The Deputy Minister of Tourism and Art (Mr Evans): Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Ministry of Tourism and Art, has no plans to degazette any part of the Lukusuzi National Part or any other national park for the purpose of settling people. 

Furthermore, this august House may wish to note that degazetting a national park can only be undertaken when the objectives for which it was created are no longer valid. The main objective for which national parks are created is ecosystem conservation, including preservation of habitat for wildlife and other biodiversity. 

Mr Speaker, in the case of Lukusuzi National Park, this august House may wish to know that the park is one of the protected areas that form the Malawi/Zambia Trans-frontier Conservation Area (TFCA). The two countries, Malawi and Zambia, have agreed, through the TFCA, to protect the area that includes Lukusuzi National Park for the purpose of enhancing conservation. Therefore, Lukusuzi National Park is key to the success of the Malawi/Zambia TFCA and must be protected at all costs. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr I. Banda: Mr Speaker, Mwase-Mphangwe Chiefdom has been reduced in size because on the eastern side where Zambia borders with Malawi, there is Kasungu National Park. During the border re-demarcation, a lot of people were displaced and thrown on the western side of the chiefdom where Lukusuzi National Park, which has no animals, is. At the moment, the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) officers are harassing and chasing those who settled in this area making it difficult for them to plant their crop at the moment. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister if some alternative land can be indentified for the many households settled near the Lukusuzi National Park. 

The Minister of Tourism and Art (Ms Kapata): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Tourism and Art, the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs and the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) are working together to see it to that these people are relocated.

I thank you, Sir. 


229.    Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:
(a)    what the housing stock deficit for the following categories of houses was:
(i)    low cost;

(ii)      medium cost; and 

(iii)    high cost; and 

(b)    what mechanisms the Government had put in place to reduce the deficit.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr N. Banda): It is estimated that there is a housing unit deficit of 2 million in the following categories:

    Category     Deficit

    Low cost    70 per cent, which is equivalent to 1.4 million units;

    Medium cost     25 per cent, which is equivalent to 500,000 units; and 

    High cost     5 per cent, which is equivalent to 100,000 units. 

Mr Speaker, the Government is reviewing the National Housing Policy which is aimed at providing a more comprehensive programme and an enabling environment to stimulate public and private sector investments, and other non-governmental organisaiton (NGOs) that are providing housing for the poor and other disadvantaged groups to offset the housing deficit.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, how long will the revision of the housing stock deficit take? Further, is the hon. Minister able to state how much it would cost to address the challenges as regards the housing stock deficit. 

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, the matter is quite urgent and the Government is doing all it can to ensure that it expedites the conclusion of the Housing Policy. Since we would like this process to be as participatory and inclusive as possible, it may take a bit of time. We want to make sure that all the stakeholders participate in coming up with this policy. 

Sir, as regards the amount of money that is expected to be spent, I am not in a position to give that information. These details will be highlighted as we come up with a policy.

I thank you, Sir.


230.    Mr Mushanga (Bwacha) asked the Minister of Home Affairs whether the Government had any plans to construct a clinic at Mukobeko Maximum Prison and other prisons countrywide for the provision of medical services to prison and local residents.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Speaker, Mukobeko Maximum Prison already has a clinic and there are also clinics at the sixteen other prisons in other parts of the country.


Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Kampyongo: These are:

    Southern Province 

    Katombola Reformatory Prison
    Choma Prison

Lusaka Province 

    Lusaka Central Prison
    Mwembeshi Prison Farm
    Mwembeshi Maximum Prison

    Eastern Province 

    Chipata Central Prison

    Central Province

    Maximum Prison
    Maximum Prison Farm

    Copperbelt Province 

    Chondwe Prison Farm
    Ndola Central Prison
    Kamfinsa Prison

    Northern Province
Milima Prison in Kasama

    Luapula Province 
Mansa Central Prison

North-Western Province
Solwezi Central Prison

    Western Province
Mongu Central Prison

Mr Speaker, a health directorate for the Prison Service has since been established and our vision is not only to expand the existing clinics, but also progressively construct new clinics where there are none. Through collaboration with stakeholders such as the President’s Emergency Plan for Aids Relief (PEPFAR), a sum of K4 million has been put up for the construction of a referral hospital at Chainama Hospital and this project will commence soon.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushanga: Mr Speaker, are there plans to upgrade the clinic at Mukobeko Maximum Prison into a mini hospital to attend to the high numbers of prisoners incarcerated at the prison?

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Speaker, in my response, I mentioned that the directorate that has been put in place is going to ensure that we expand the facilities where need be. However, the hon. Member may wish to know that in Kabwe, apart from the clinic at the medium prison, we have another clinic within the maximum prison. As I stated earlier, the Government had plans.

I thank you, Sir. 




VOTE 07 – (Office of the Auditor-General – K111,407,579).

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Chairperson, it is my pleasure to present the 2015 Budget for the Office of the Auditor-General, established under Article 121 of the Constitution of Zambia. This is one of the institutional mechanisms that the Government uses in order to provide accountability and transparency and expose any public resource mismanagement in order to improve financial management in the Government. 

Sir, it is, therefore, important that we all understand that the reports of the Auditor-General and the deliberations are the Government’s institutional mechanisms meant for the good of the public resource management for the benefit of the society. In recognising this important institution, my Government is determined to provide an enabling environment for strengthening its works. 

2014 Budget Performance

Mr Chairperson, of the total Budget allocation of K86,166,427 to the Office of the Auditor-General, my Government has, so far, disbursed 91 per cent of these funds. This has enabled the Office of the Auditor-General to undertake planned work on time. The annual report is now expected to be tabled in Parliament by 31st December, 2014, in line with the constitutional provisions.

2015 Budget

Mr Chairperson, the Government is carrying out developmental works across the country in various sectors. This comes at a huge cost which should be safeguarded. The 2015 Budget for the Office of the Auditor-General is meant to cover the cost of providing audit services to all Government institutions. 

Mr Chairperson, the Government is aware of the many challenges that the Office of the Auditor-General is facing, including inadequate transport, inadequate information technology (IT) equipment, such as laptops and printers, and the lack of office accommodation at its Chinsali and Choma branches, among others. In this regard, my Government has set aside funds in the 2015 Budget to address these concerns. 

Mr Chairperson, I wish to inform this august House that my Government has commenced the construction of an office block in Chinsali, in Muchinga, which is expected to be completed in 2015, while the construction of the office block in Choma is expected to commence in the first quarter of 2015. All these measures are being put in place to avert the challenges being faced and enhance the audit coverage of the Office of the Auditor-General.

Mr Chairperson, in order to smoothen the operations of the Office of the Auditor-General, my Government will endeavour to:
(a)    release funds for operations on a timely basis;

(b)    enhance internal controls in Government systems and to address all issues raised by the Office of the Auditor-General during audits as quickly as possible;

(c)    improve the capacity of the Auditor-General in order to increase its audit coverage in various districts from the current 81 per cent to 95 per cent. In this regard, a total number of forty-two auditors will be recruited in 2015 in order to beef up the number of auditors; and

(d)    enhance the technical capacity of the auditors in line with international standards in order to inspire public confidence in the audit work being carried out.
Mr Chairperson, a total of K111,383,579 has been provided to facilitate the undertaking of the following:
(a)    audit of Government accounts for the financial year, 2014;

(b)    audit of parastatal bodies on the accounts for the financial years up to 2014;

(c)    carry out specialised audits such as performance, information and forensic audit in line with Public Finance Act;

(d)    audit of the implementation of various Government projects in view of the massive investment in infrastructure development;

(e)    implementation of continuous professional development programmes;

(f)    carry out quality assurance of the entire audit process; and

(g)    ensure that the monitoring and evaluation of all office programmes and activities.

Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Audit-General undertakes risk assessments when carrying out its audits. In this regard, the office will prioritise its work in line with this assessment in order to cover areas mostly susceptible to mismanagement and where the loss is likely to have a huge impact. These areas will include:

(a)    priority areas in the national development plan as well as the National Budget;

(b)    infrastructure development such as construction of roads, bridges, clinics, schools and universities;

(c)    programmes where serious weaknesses have been previously reported; and

(d)    Government social and economic programmes.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, the audits provide one way in which public resources can be spared from wastage which can then be channelled to more pressing areas. The task that the Auditor-General is beset by is onerous. I now seek the support of this House to pass the 2015 Budget for the Office of the Auditor-General.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity that you have availed to me …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I am most indebted to you for allowing this point of order, which is not only crucial and a bloodline for this institution, but also for the Republic at large.

Sir, I would like to draw your attention and that of the hon. Members to the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia at Part X, which deals with finance. In making my point of order, I also wish to draw your attention to Cap. 16 of the Laws of Zambia, Part III, Section 9, “Collective responsibility of Ministers, which I shall endeavour to quote. 

Mr Chairperson, I will quickly quote because I feel that what this provision of the law states is of great importance. It reads as follows:

“A person holding Ministerial office shall not do anything that is inconsistent with the principle of collective responsibility of Ministers for the policy of the Government and the conduct of its affairs and in particular shall not:
(a)    publicly contradict or disassociate himself from any policy adopted by Cabinet;

(b)    issue public statements criticising another person holding ministerial office; or 

(c)    make unauthorised disclosures of Cabinet discussions, decisions or documents.”
Mr Chairperson, in the last few days, we have witnessed a lot of disappointing, and yet interesting statements from certain hon. Ministers on your right hand side. This particular document that I am holding in my hands is the business of the day that we are dealing with at this particular point and I am grateful that you allowed me this point of order at this juncture when the Hon. Mr Speaker denied it to me at that time. 

Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members of Parliament, one of our functions is to approve the Budget and that is what we are doing now. I know that the hon. Minister of Finance with his officers, for the greater part of the year, have been very busy putting these figures together for the greater good of this country, for if we do not go through this process, this country could be paralysed. 

Sir, as though it was not enough, we just came out of a bereavement which has delayed this process of approving the Budget and has, indeed, caused difficulties for the country’s Treasury. Yesterday, a group of Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members of Parliament, who included hon. Ministers, …

Mr Phiri: Aah!

Mr Nkombo: … signed a document in which they threatened to block the approval of the 2015 National Budget if Hon. Edgar Lungu is not adopted by the PF to succeed our late President.

Hon. Government Back-Benchers: Lay it on the Table.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, let me proceed by quoting what their spokesperson, Hon. Lazarus Chungu, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lupososhi, said.

“The consultative meeting has adopted Hon. Edgar Lungu, including some Opposition hon. Members of Parliament who are serving in the PF Government as Deputy Ministers.”

Mr Chairperson, meanwhile, the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD) President, Ms Edith Nawakwi, has warned Zambians against electing Mr Edgar Lungu should the PF adopt him.

Hon. Government Members: Lay it on the Table.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I will later lay this document on the Table.

The Chairperson: Just a second, Hon. Nkombo. You might want to give as much detail as you can but, unfortunately, once you do that, it will derail our proceedings. Is it possible, and I believe it is, for you to get to your point of order.

Mr Ng’onga: You must file in a question.


Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. I want to state that the abortion of this process by hon. Ministers of the Government who are supposed to defend this particular Budget amounts to a breach of the ministerial …

Mr Mwila: Question!

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Nkombo: … code of conduct.

Mr Mwila: Question!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, in this vein and in the interest of time, I will lay this document on the Table for all who are interested to see it, I wish to find out whether the hon. Ministers who include, inter alia, Hon. Mwimba H. Malama, Hon. Davies Mwila, Hon. Stephen Kampyongo, Hon. Panji Kaunda, …

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Phiri: Sure!

Mr Nkombo: … Hon. Col. Gerry Chanda, Hon. Freedom Sikazwe, Hon. Nathaniel Mubukwanu, Hon. Harry Kalaba, Hon. Jean Kapata, Hon. Prof. Nkandu Luo and Hon. Dr Ngosa Simbyakula, inter alia, were in order to threaten to …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: … walk out of this Parliament …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … in order to derail the process of passing the Budget, which is so important and is a constitutional responsibility for that matter which we were elected to perform in this House?

Sir, I seek your ruling on this matter.

The Chairperson: You have made reference to Part X of the Constitution of Zambia and Part III Cap. 16 of the Laws of Zambia and that will obviously require us to also study those particular aspects. In view of that, I reserve my ruling to a later time. 

May Hon. Mwale continue.

Mr Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this Vote. From the outset, I support this Vote …


The Chairperson: Order, on my right!

Mr Mwale: … and in doing so, I wish to say that as a parliamentarian and Member of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), the Committee that uses the reports that are produced by the Office of the Auditor-General, we are very pleased with the work that this office does. 

Mr Speaker, firstly, the Auditor-General herself is the pride of this nation because she has done her work diligently and has worked well with the members of staff at her office. She has even been given an honorary doctorate by the …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I reluctantly rise on this very important point of order. I know that you have reserved your ruling on the point of order that was earlier raised by Hon. Nkombo. However, I rise because he has quoted me and other hon. Ministers in his point of order …

The Chairperson: Who?

Mr Kampyongo: Hon. Nkombo.

The Chairperson: At this point, hon. Minister, we will not go back to that point of order because we will have to wait until a ruling is made on it.

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, my point of order is not because he has quoted me …

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, I will not allow that. Let us wait for a ruling to be made.

Can the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali continue.

Mr Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I thank you once again.

On behalf of the Committee and my own behalf, I wish to congratulate the Auditor-General for being awarded an honorary doctorate by the Lusaka University for the work that she has been doing for this country. I know that the Auditor-General is about to retire because she has served in this office for a long time, but I think that she has set the tone for those who will come after her. She has done this country proud because she has been recognised internationally and is now being recognised for the work that she has done within Zambia.

Sir, this office has done great work for this nation in trying to ensure that there is proper accountability and transparency in the way we use our public resources because there is no way this country is ever going to develop and attain the millennium development goals (MDGs), Vision 2030 and all the medium and long-term plans in place if it does not take care of the resources that it has and this office has done very well in ensuring that these resources are safe-guarded.

Mr Chairperson, this is the third year that I am debating this matter since the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power. The PF has a manifesto which it presented to the rest of the nation. In that manifesto, it clearly stated what it was going to do with this office once it acceded into power. It is now three years since it acceded into power, but has not implemented what is in its manifesto. The last time I debated, I presented, on the Floor of this House, what the manifesto of the PF states about enhancing the independence of this office, but it has not implemented any of those things that it listed.

Mr Chairperson, the PF must honour its word by ensuring that it enhances the independence of this office. There are a number of things that are not working well at this office because it is not fully independent. This office depends on the Executive and the Ministry of Finance for funding. It also depends on the hon. Minister of Finance and the Secretary to the Treasury to determine what its budget should be, and yet the hon. Minister of Finance and the Secretary to the Treasury are both clients to this office. It is possible for the Government to limit the scope of work for this office, in terms of what the office should be able to cover, by how much is allocated to it. I heard the hon. Minister, who is Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, say that the Government wants the Office of the Auditor-General to increase its audit from 86 per cent to 91 per cent. Why should it be 91 per cent? The Government must ensure that this office carries out its audit 100 per cent. Why does the Government want to hide the other 9 per cent and not allow the Office of the Auditor-General to audit every ngwee that is appropriated to the Executive for use?

The Auditor-General must have the capacity to do that. It is not up to the Executive or the Ministry of Finance to limit the scope of work of the Office of the Auditor-General. We need to give that office that capacity, and by doing that, the Office of the Auditor-General will determine its own scope of work. So, by allocating fewer resources to this office, the Government is limiting its scope of work. We must attain those levels of independence and ensure that that office is an office of Parliament and not one that has to depend on the Executive.

Sir, I think it is categorically stated in the PF’s Manifesto that this office shall be an office of Parliament. When will the PF honour its manifesto? Other than that, the United Nations (UN) passed a resolution which determines the independence of this particular office, and Zambia is a signatory thereto. I keep referring to the Lima Declaration of 1997 and the Mexico Declaration of 2007. The Mexico Declaration, on the Supreme Audit institutions, says that the office must be well resourced and that it must be an office of Parliament and not attached to the Executive or an office that depends on the Executive. So, the PF must honour that not only because we ratified that declaration, but also because it is what is contained in its manifesto.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that, time and again, we have seen the audit reports that have been produced by the Office of the Auditor-General. We see the same problems being highlighted in one report after the other. The reports of unretired imprest, misappropriation and misapplication of funds, the lack of record-keeping, among others, are brought to the fore every year. Therefore, the Executive can be of great help in ensuring that we do not have these kind of issues coming up all the time. One way that the Executive can help is by ensuring that the Public Finance Act is amended. The Executive should ensure that the financial regulations are strengthened and stern action is taken against officers who tend to perpetrate and abuse public resources year in and year out.

Sir, I think that in our sittings, as Public Accounts Committee, we have, on several occasions, communicated this to the Executive and urged it to amend the Public Finance Act. However, to date, we have only received promises of that being done. In June, last year, we were told, for the first time, that the Act would be amended. That session passed and nothing happened. We are now in this session and, so far, we have not got any fillers that the Executive will bring the new Public Finance Act for enactment. We will keep getting the same things, and in the end, people will keep judging the Government harshly because it is not taking care of the country’s resources. You may find yourselves on this side of the House because people will accuse you of not doing anything to protect the public finances.

Mr Chairperson, in 2012, K3.2 billion (K3.2 trillion then), which is 15 per cent of the total Budget for 2012 was queried by the Auditor-General. We do not want to keep having this kind of situation. The PAC has set itself a target of ensuring that by 2016, there should be zero audit queries. It is possible to do that because it involves improvement in record-keeping, unretired imprest and things that we can change overnight. The Government must show willingness for these things to be changed. Sometimes, we think there is some political will to change or address these issues, but we must be able to see change in the Public Finance Act. The only thing that we have been able to change is the administration of imprest. Now that people do not have to retire imprest because they are only given what is due to them, there is everything else that has to change as well. So, I want to request the Executive to make an effort in seeing to it that we see reduced audit queries in this country and ensure that the Office of the Auditor-General concentrates on value for money and forensic audits. We should see a change in the Public Finance Act. That way, we are going to give the Government accolades.

Sir, during one of the appearances of the Secretary to the Treasury, he promised PAC that this would happen. As PAC, we are very optimistic and looking forward to that happening. However, time is moving fast. This is now the third year of the PF in power and it may not get any more time. As the party in Government, this is its chance to change things.

Mr Chairperson, I talked about the Office of the Auditor-General trying to move from focusing so much on irregularity audits into value for money and performance audits. Each time I debate this issue, I keep saying that the whole world has graduated from that. They no longer look at how much money was allocated and whether it was used correctly. The world has now moved to checking whether the money given out added value. The question they ask now is whether the investment in the road sector or any other programme is of any value. Those are the things that we want to focus on and not dealing with a lack of documents and things like that year in and year out. 

Mr Speaker, we are abusing this office which must now produce more value for money audits. On average, it produces about three or four of such audits in a year. We would like to see this office do much more and go beyond producing more than thirty reports so that we give them to different Sectoral Committees at Parliament for consideration. We want reports on how the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is being used. We want to see how solid waste, our forests and water bodies are being managed in Zambia so that we look at the huge investments. We should not, on a daily basis, focus on whether or not my friend, Hon. Kalaba, has retired his imprest. That is abuse of this office. I am mentioning Hon. Kalaba on a light note, and he knows that because he is my tribal cousin.

Mr Chairperson, we would also like to see this office getting involved in the mining sector. I think the Government must get serious about this matter. We have said so much and there is so much that the nation has discussed on the lack of transparency in the extractive industry. We have accused the mining sector of not stating correctly what it is exporting and how much is being mined, among other things.  The Office of the Auditor-General could be a solution to that by ensuring that it checks everything for the nation and if it tables a report of what is happening in the mining sector, we can trust and believe that the Auditor-General’s Office has done its work in the interest of the nation, as it has always done. This office just needs capacity and all we need to do is ensure more people at that office are trained so they can understand the activities in the mining sector. This may be the solution to all these false declarations that are made by the mining companies. 

Sir, as I conclude, I wish to say that there is a need to take care of the resources that we have. 
The resources that this House seeks to approve are hard-earned. There are so many people who are paying taxes in this country. We are really struggling to make sure that all the money that we raise is put to good use. 

Mr Chairperson, I think the Office of the Auditor-General has always done its work. What we need now is to ensure that there is more political will on the side of the Executive to help this office ensure that the people that are found wanting are taken to task. We need to ensure that the recommendations that are passed in Parliament, in this regard, are fully implemented. If the PAC says that someone should be punished on account of misappropriating public funds, the relevant authorities need to ensure that this is done. Otherwise, we will keep on getting reports that are so depressing and discussing the same matters year in and year out. 

Mr Chairperson, Ministers of Finance will come and go and if nothing is done to change the way we utilise public funds, it will be business-as-usual. What we need is a Minister of Finance who will really ensure that public resources are protected. We need to move from a situation where 15 per cent of the Budget is misused to having zero audit queries in the Auditor-General’s report. If this happens, we shall all stand up and praise the hon. Minister who will be responsible for this.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity given to me to make very few remarks. I am aware that the tradition has always been that whenever we are debating, we lament that this ministry or department is very important and so on and so forth. However, I am also aware that the limiting factor to this effect are finances. If we had enough resources, the Government would definitely allocate more money to various institutions. 

Mr Chairperson, nonetheless, I want to believe that, as a nation, we have to agree that some sectors or institutions are more critical than others. In this regard, I have in mind the Auditor-General’s Office. This is a very critical component for our national development and its importance cannot be over-emphasised. This is an office which neither belongs to the right nor left, it belongs to the centre. Every party that will come into Government will depend on this office, especially for the economic growth of our country.

Mr Chairperson, I do not want to glorify individuals, as this is not my tradition. However, it is important to mention that the holder of any office plays a critical role in how that office functions. In this regard, I think the current holder of the Office of the Auditor-General, Madam Chifungula, has stood out as a very special person. She is very prominent, efficient and professional. I am saying this because, often times, our tradition is that we only pay tribute when somebody is either dead or retired. It is important that we pay tribute when somebody is in office. Ms Chifungula has raised the bar in terms of her work as Auditor-General and it is my sincere hope that when she retires, whoever takes over will live to the expectation of every Zambian.

Mr Chairperson, I might sound repetitive because the Chairperson of Public Accounts Committee (PAC) has propounded most of the issues I wanted to raise, but let me just emphasise on some of them. The independence of the Auditor-General’s Office, as mentioned earlier, is very critical. The PAC Chairperson has also mentioned that following the Lima and Mexico declarations, the whole world has now said that the office of the auditor-general must be detached from government interference. 

Mr Chairperson, one of the measures to ensure that this office is independent is through funding. If we continue with the manner that this institution is currently funded, which is by the Executive, it will not be independent. The influence of the Executive will definitely continue to be exerted on that office. 

Mr Chairperson, further, it is important that this office is given an opportunity to employ its own staff because it knows the requirements and calibrE of the people that are supposed to be employed. The current situation in our country whereby the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) employs officers on behalf of this office defeats the concept of independence of the Auditor-General’s Office professionally. This actually dilutes the whole situation and does not add value. It is important that we take cognisance of that fact.

Mr Chairperson, as mentioned earlier, this is one of the offices that cuts across all ministries and departments. While we see that the allocation to the Auditor-General’s Office is growing or is substantial, only a few ministries are being audited. As it was earlier said, it is only about 86 per cent of Government institutions that are being covered. I believe that the concept of leaving out certain ministries or departments puts the country at risk because those that are not audited could be doing something unreasonable. So, the normal thing is to have 100 per cent coverage in terms of auditing. This will be of great benefit to our country.

Mr Chairperson, one of my colleagues mentioned value for money auditing. This is a new concept and for a country with a growing economy that places emphasis on infrastructure development, this concept will not work in the absence of qualified staff. We are now moving away from depending on engineers to technical people like accountants and auditors. It is this cadre of staff that is supposed to monitor the levels of competence on our behalf when it comes to, for instance, road construction. All over the country, many people have complained about the quality of work in terms of infrastructure development. Unless we enhance and reinforce the work of this office, most of the infrastructure development will not be up to standard.

Mr Chairperson, the Executive is failing to take action on the revelations in the auditor-General’s Report. Year in and year out, it has just become a routine that the Auditor-General’s Report is produced. Unless the Executive pays very serious attention to the findings of the Auditor-General, it defeats the whole purpose of auditing public institutions. I believe that the Government should pay serious attention to the Auditor-General’s Report and take action. The Executive must study these reports and take action. 

Mr Chairperson, reports on their own will not serve any purpose. If anything, it is very discouraging for the people who, day in and day out, exert all their energies and abilities on the production of these reports, which are not acted upon. It is very frustrating indeed. So, it is my sincere hope, as the PAC Chairperson mentioned, that this Government, which promised so much before assuming office, will walk its talk. The time is now.

Mr Chairperson, certain things like unretired imprest, non-availability of payment vouchers and so on and so forth are routine and basic things. However, the whole country is just watching and taking no action. I believe that if there is political will, this country can stop the ‘bleeding’ it is going through, at the moment, through this important office. 

Mr Chairperson, one of the innovative ways in which we can address some of the issues I have mentioned is through live debates of Committee meetings. We had this in the past few months, but we do not know who put a stop to it. However, to me, this served as a deterrent measure to wrongdoing. When these meetings were broadcast live, most officers in Government offices were glued to television sets. That alone should have helped the country, but it was stopped prematurely. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to believe that if the Government of the day had supported that move, it would have taken the credit because the size of the Auditor-General’s Report would have been reduced from let us say 200 to 80 pages. At the end of the day, when it came to campaigns, our colleagues would have asked who, in the history of this country, had ever managed to achieve such a reduction in the number of pages of the Auditor-General’s Report. That should have been a plus to the Government of the day. So, banning the live broadcast of those meeting is not helpful.

Finally, as I wind up, Mr Chairperson, let me also concur with my Chairperson that the issue of the mining sector, which has been the talk throughout, needs to be addressed. It can be addressed. Many have argued that the mining sector is a private investment and the Government should not have a say. However, that should not be the case, not at all. What stands between us and poverty is the mining sector. Our livelihood is based on the mining sector. Some of our colleagues, like in the neighbouring countries, someone is reminding me, Tanzania, have a hand in the mining industry.

Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Definitely, there has been talk, grievances and complaints that have arisen in this country over this country getting value from its mining sector. I believe that time has come for us to invest in this Office of the Auditor General. All that is lacking, at the moment, is the combination of skill, where people can have the knowledge in the mining sector, metallurgy and the rest, and the accounting knowledge which we already have. The combination of mining industry knowledge and accounting knowledge, put together, through the Office of the Auditor- General, will help the country to audit the mining sector. I want to believe that Zambia stands to benefit from this office.

 With these few remarks, I want to strongly support this Vote and I thank you.

Mr Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Firstly, I would like to thank both debaters who have debated on this issue. One of the issues is that the Patriotic Front (PF) is doing all it can to ensure that it upholds the independence and integrity of the institution. Its commitment has been seen through the plans to ensure that we build a number of audit offices in Chinsali and Choma. We are looking at these issues from a more serious angle. We are not offering any lip service. 

When it comes to the disbursements of funds, I said that, as of today, we have received about 91 per cent disbursement. I did not say that we are not going to disburse 100 per cent. We, as a Government, are more than committed to ensuring that all releases that are supposed to be meant for the Office of the Auditor-General are done because we are interested. If anything, the Office of the Auditor-General is a Government institution. The Government wants to track everything that is being done in the institution to check if there is any mismanagement. If these anomalies are being found out by the Government, it is for its interest and not anybody else’s. That is why when we find out, as a Government, the Auditor-General writes that document and tables before the Public Accounts Committee. So, the Government is the one which is interested. That is why we are making disbursements. Nobody should praise what the Auditor-General’s Office is doing in isolation because it is a wing of the Government. 

The other issue is that when it comes to its independence, Sir, this has to do with the Constitution-making review process. That is why the Draft Constitution has been given out. Let people put in their suggestions so that when it is looked at, then, we will agree with all the people who will make those submissions. Thereafter, when the Constitution is done, we will then follow it up so that these issues are effected. 

Sir, I thank the hon. Members who debated in support and those who supported this Vote in silence.

I thank you, Sir.


Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 06/01 – (Public Service Commission – Office of the President – K 10,829,690).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I am very thankful for the opportunity accorded to me to present the 2015 Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, the work of the commission is guided by the following mission statement:

 “To ensure integrity, equity and professionalism in the conduct of appointments, promotions and disciplinary control, and separations in the Public Service in order to enhance delivery of quality service.”

Mr Chairperson, in 2014, the commission had a budget of K5,459,795 for its operations. This allocation enabled the commission to spearhead Cabinet approval of Human Resource Reforms for the Public Service. The commission played a key role in the development of the Stakeholder Engagement Strategy as well as the Communication Strategy. The strategies provided a roadmap for the implementation of Human Resource Reforms scheduled for 2015. The commission is also reviewing the Human Resource Policy Document and Guidelines. 

For 2015, Sir, the commission’s intention is to implement Good Governance and Public Service Reforms that will, among other things, promote discipline, appointments and promotions to all Public Service positions on merit and progression basis. 

Sir, in order to implement the Revised National Decentralisation Policy, the commission intends to devolve decision-making to lower levels of governance, that is to say, line ministries, provinces and Government departments from the level of principal officers and below. 

In this regard, the commission will reform the manner in which human resource in the Public Service is managed. The commission will further concentrate on building human resource capacity in both line ministries and provincial administrations to prepare officers to manage these functions which will be delegated. In this regard, the commission will step up its effort on monitoring, evaluation and performance support systems, as highlighted in the Budget briefs. The expected benefits of decentralising the human resource system will be efficiency in decision-making, including timely application of rewards and sanctions to enhance performance control over employees, accountability for decisions, motivation and increased productivity.

Mr Chairperson, I now have the honour to present the 2015 Budget request for the commission amounting to K10,829,690,690, as per ceiling, compared to the 2014 figure of K9,939,482. These funds will support the portfolio functions of the commission in its continued effort to have an efficient and effective Public Service for people-centered economic growth and development. 

Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, urge this august House to support this Vote as presented.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the support of all the hon. Members. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Vote 06/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President - K 151,186,444).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, it is with great honour that I stand here to present the Budget Estimates for the Office of the President, Cabinet Office, for 2015. 

Mr Chairperson, Cabinet Office is the highest administrative office in the Public Service and operates directly under the Office of the President of the Republic of Zambia. It derives its mandate from Article 53 of the Constitution of Zambia, Cap. 1 of the Laws of Zambia. It comprises the following:

(a)    Office of the Secretary to Cabinet;

(b)    Administration Division;

(c)    Management Development Division;

(d)    Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division; and

(e)    Office of the Former President.

Mr Chairperson, being an apex institution and policy centre for the Government, Cabinet Office has an over-arching responsibility to ensure the effective formulation and implementation of policies, systems and procedures. It is also responsible for monitoring and evaluating the overall performance of the Public Service in order to ensure efficient administration and management of Government business. 
Mr Chairperson, to fulfil its mandate, Cabinet Office is guided by the following mission statement:

“To co-ordinate and oversee the development and implementation of Government policies and systems and facilitate the conduct of Cabinet business in order to secure the general efficiency and effectiveness of the Public Service.”

In line with this mission statement, Cabinet Office will undertake the following programmes in 2015:

(a)    General Administration

The major activities that will be undertaken under this programme include:

(i)    Public Affairs and Summit Meetings

To enable the President to perform his Executive functions, Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate Presidential local and foreign travel, maintain and operate the Presidential aircraft and motor vehicle fleet. In addition, Cabinet Office will facilitate the hosting and participation in both local and foreign summits and meetings;

(ii)    Support to the Office of the former Presidents

Cabinet Office will continue providing administrative and logistical support to the Office of the first and fourth Presidents as well as support services to the second, third and fifth Presidents’ families, in accordance with the provisions of the Benefits of Former Presidents’ Act No. 40 of 1993, Cap. 15 of the Laws of Zambia.

In view of the untimely demise of our Fifth President, this august House is being asked to allow for the creation of the Budget line to be called Support Services to the Fifth President’s Family. This is meant to cater for the provision of the administrative and logistical support to the Fifth President’s family, in accordance with the provisions of the Benefits of the Former President’s Act No. 40 of 1993, Cap. 15 of the Laws of Zambia; and

(iii)    State Functions
Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate and organise State functions and commemorations of national events in order to enable the President to perform his ceremonial duties;

(b)    Support to Strategic Institutions

    Under this programme, Cabinet Office will provide funding to the Government Communication Department in order to facilitate effective and secure communication between Cabinet Office and other strategic institutions;

(c)    Cabinet Meetings and Management of the Policy Process

    Cabinet Office will continue to facilitate the conduct of Cabinet meetings and co-ordinate the formulation of public policies, monitor and evaluate their implementation by the Government ministries and institutions. 

    Cabinet Office will also continue co-ordinating the implementation of an e-Government system in order to enhance efficiency across the Public Service;

(d)    Strategic Planning, Restructuring and Institution Development and Performance Management System

    Under this programme, Cabinet Office will continue to provide quality internal management consultancy services to Government ministries and institutions. To this effect, comprehensive institutional appraisals of ministries and spending agencies to document current processes and identify service delivery and challenges and recommending appropriate interventions as part of the activities under the Public Service Transformation Strategy will be undertaken in 2015;

Further, Cabinet Office will, in 2015, oversee the re-organisation of the service commissions and the Public Service Management Division to facilitate decentralisation of human resources function to ministries and spending agencies in furtherance of the Human Service Management Reforms. Additionally, existing management systems will be enhanced in order to promote accountability of public officials and institutions. Focus will be placed on developing and implementing result-oriented performance management systems in ministries and provinces; and

(e)     Decentralisation 

In 2015, Cabinet Office will facilitate the expeditious implementation of the Revised National Decentralisation Policy. This follows the transfer of the Decentralisation Secretariat to Cabinet Office from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing which was approved in this House.

Mr Chairperson, from the foregoing, it is clear that Cabinet Office plays a pivotal and critical role in the management of Public Service and overall provision of policy direction to the nation. Therefore, the funds being requested for in these Estimates of Expenditure for 2015 will be necessary to enable the office to effectively execute its mandate. It is for this reason that I request this august House to support these estimates.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Chairperson, I think that this is quite a straightforward matter, but I would have loved the hon. Minister to take a closer look at the number of events which have taken place and gobbled a lot of money which would have otherwise been saved. Further, it has been noted that when we have State functions …


M Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, I am worried because the hon. Minister responsible for this is not listening. Therefore, I will also pause.


The Chairperson: Order!

He is listening. The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is listening.

Mr Mtolo: Mr Chairperson, now I have got his attention. Hon. Minister, when you have State functions, I have noted that while you have a very elaborate salutation process, your guest list, however, does not include the position of Mr Deputy Speaker and the Deputy Chairperson for Committees of the Whole House. 

Mr Chairperson, as we go ahead, I would like the hon. Minister to explain why this is so because I think that the Legislature is as important as the Executive and, indeed, the Judiciary. 

With these very few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

Before I give the Floor to Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, I think that that is an issue that the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House and the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should attend to because it is true that on the guest lists, Mr Deputy Speaker and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees are omitted. I am not talking about the individuals, I am talking about the positions of Mr Deputy Speaker and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees whose ranks, we are told, are equivalent to Cabinet Minister and Deputy Minister respectively. Therefore, please, look into that matter.

Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa may take the Floor.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairperson, Cabinet Office is an extremely important institution in our nation because it plays important functions that are central to our development as a nation. To begin with, the biggest challenge that we have, as a country, is better management of our country. There has to be consensus on how to manage our country so that we can deliver services to every part of the country and to all our people so that the scarce resources that we have at our disposal are managed prudently. That being the case, Cabinet Office goes beyond being the secretariat to the committee of senior hon. Ministers who are responsible for Government policy. 

Sir, Cabinet Office, to a large extent, is the co-ordinator of our nationhood and our aspiration to be a cohesive nation. That means that there are many events that are co-ordinated by Cabinet Office, and those events speak to our nationhood and to our aspirations for peace, stability and unity as a country. As examples of events, we have Independence Day celebrations, Africa Freedom Day, Labour Day, Youth Day, Heroes and Unity Day, and International Women’s Day. These are very important events. They are not just holidays, but also events for nationhood. They are events meant to bring us together. They are events meant to instill, in all of us, a sense of pride, a sense of belonging and a feeling that truly we are a nation. That means that Cabinet Office that co-ordinates these national events must think very seriously on how to co-ordinate these events in such a manner that they enhance our nationhood and advance our national spirit. We must all realise seriously that we are a multi-ethnic, heterogeneous and multi-cultural society. To a large extent, that is what Zambia is, and other societies in Africa are like that. We are trying to develop a nation out of that diversity. Our unity or cohesion is greater than our diversity. Cabinet Office has a responsibility to ensure that our nationhood is promoted through the events. What I am saying is that when we have these very important events, which Cabinet Office is co-ordinating, it should think nationally. For example, Independence Day celebrations should bring all of us together. Independence Day celebrations are not a party event. However, Cabinet Office has been making that mistake of looking at these celebrations as party events since the attainment of our independence. 

Mr Mufalali: Unfortunately.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, they are not party events. They are national events. They are events of national symbolism. The money that we approve in this House for those events should go towards bringing all of us together. For example, why should dignitaries be invited to national events at the exclusion of the Opposition? Does that make sense if we are building a nation? Would our people in Kaputa, Nakonde, Chama, Mwinilunga, …

Dr Kaingu: Mwandi.

Prof. Lungwangwa: … in Mwandi and Katombola not be happy to see Hon. Mbulakulima, and Hon. Miyutu shake hands with Hon. Kalaba or Hon. Chikwanda during a national event. They would be proud. They would be happy and they would think in national terms, but what is Cabinet Office doing? It is not bringing this nation together …

Dr Kaingu: No.

Professor Lungwangwa: … through such events. It is thinking along partisan lines …

Dr Kaingu: Shame.

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and that is unacceptable. Cabinet Office is a national institution that ought to transcend partisan divisions. Political parties are only there to facilitate or direct the operations of the Government, but Cabinet Office should go beyond partisan politics. For example, why should party cadres be more important than Opposition political party leaders? Does that make sense? It does not. 

Mr Chairperson, in addition to that, better management of our country is the challenge of our time and as we have entered the second part of the first century of our development, all of us should think in terms of how best to manage our country.

Having entered the second part of the first century of our development, all of us should think of how best to manage our country and on what benchmarks we should agree as a nation. I think that, so far, we are moving towards some agreement, as a nation, on certain benchmarks that are important for the management of our society, for example, e-governance. This programme was established way back in 2010. However, what is causing a delay in its implementation? Other countries are way ahead of us. We have facilities or infrastructure that can facilitate e-governance. We have undersea cables in eastern, western and southern Africa which can facilitate Information Communication Technology (ICT). So far, efforts have been made to lay optic fiber going to various parts of our country to facilitate e-governance. What is the problem? Why is this project taking long to be operationalised? Cabinet Office is the co-ordinator of the e-governance programme. Why is it not on top speed with this programme? How come other nations, within Africa, are way ahead of us? What is the problem with Cabinet Office? 

Sir, we have other benchmarks to better manage our country such as training needs. Cabinet Office ought to be the co-ordinator of the training needs of our country so that we know exactly the skills and knowledge requirements of our country in different sectors. All training institutions ought to be in line with the training needs of our country. Why has Cabinet Office failed to do this? What is the problem? We have very highly educated people at Cabinet Office who can easily do these things. We do not need external consultants to do these simple things. What is Cabinet Office doing? Why can it not bring these things in place for the betterment of our country? 

Mr Chairperson, we have a whole challenge of policy analysis and research. It is very important, seeing as you have a unit that is responsible for co-ordinating policy and policy analysis. We have problems of equitable and inclusive development in this country. 

Dr Kaingu: Voka!

Prof. Lungwangwa: What is Cabinet Office doing to ensure that our policies, as a nation, are equitably impacting on the different aspects or areas of our country? 

Sir, as hon. Members of Parliament, we lament the inequitable delivery of services. What is Cabinet Office doing to ensure that it advises hon. Cabinet Ministers on the need to have equitable delivery of services to every part of the country? Why should the rehabilitation of Nalikwanda Road, a stretch of 55 km, for example, take more than four years to complete? This road is in a rural area and the poor peasants have to pay K150 as bus fares. Does this make sense? 

Dr Kaingu: No!

Prof. Lungwangwa: We talk about these things here in the House, but what is Cabinet Office doing to ensure that the plea of the peasants in various parts of the country is heard? Through its research, policy analysis and monitoring of the Budget implementation, these things can be addressed. Why does it not do this? What is wrong? What is the problem? 

As very experienced and educated senior officers who are highly skilled, you are failing to address these very important …

The Chairperson: Order!

Address the Chair, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa. Once you start saying “you”, you might invite a response from them. If, however, you say “they are failing” or “they are doing well”, you are protected. 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Thank you very much for your guidance, Sir. 

Mr Chairperson, Cabinet Office is failing and this is unacceptable. Even after we approve this Budget, some people will stand on campaign platforms and say that if people do not support their party, there will be no service delivery to them. Does that make sense, Mr Chairperson?

Prof. Luo: That is what you used to say!

Prof. Lungwangwa: It does not matter who said what, the question is: Does it make sense? It does not and should not make sense in the eyes of Cabinet Office because all our people are in dire need of development. Services need to be delivered to improve the quality of lives. 

Mr Chairperson, Cabinet Office should pull its socks up and ensure that we have better management of our country. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Chairperson, I would like to add the voice of the people of Ikeleng’i to the debate on the Vote on Cabinet Office. Having been a civil servant for so many years and having served in various appointments, I would like to share with my colleagues what I think Cabinet Office should be.  

Sir, Cabinet Office is the hub of the Civil Service. It is the pillar of a nation, meaning that all appointments at Cabinet Office should follow the Civil Service norms. Today, the situation has changed. Some of us who were in the Civil Service in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) days are sad to see Cabinet Office change from best to worst. 

Mr Chairperson, appointments in the Civil Service are no longer on merit, but on political arrangements. District Commissioners (DCs) who do not even know what to do in these offices are being picked by politicians because of relations. Today, they are pre-occupied with positioning themselves to become next hon. Members of Parliament and have very little time to attend to Government duties. 

Dr Kaingu: Yes!

Mr Muchima: Wherever they are, they are thinking of unseating hon. Members of Parliament not only of the Opposition, but also of the Ruling Party. 


Mr Muchima: You are comfortable here, but they are busy. When you go to their offices, they have no idea what to say. As long as a Member is in the Opposition, he or she will not be given the best answer. If, however, you are a cadre, depending on which party, you have a leeway. When the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, it was a circus. You would find a District Commissioner’s vehicle full of cadres. When you go to a meeting, cadres would be there claiming to be chairperson of this and that and Civil Service matters could not be discussed. It has never happened this way.  

Mr Speaker, efficiency in the Civil Service has been eroded. I have been a civil servant for a long time. When we took over from the colonial masters, the Civil Service was as straight as a ruler but, today, it as crooked as a drunken person’s walk. 

Sir, you would be lucky to receive a response if you were to write a letter to any ministry today. When one knocks at their office doors, he/she receives no response. Action is only taken if they have a vested interest. That is the only time when files move. 

Dr Kaingu: Shame!

Mr Muchima: Civil servants, are supposed to be the servants of the people. People who come from Kaputa, Ikeleng’i or Chama are supposed to be given service, but that is not the case because Cabinet Office is not doing its job. It does not know what it is doing. It is lazy. 

Mr Speaker, in developed countries, you are not allowed to take your cellular phone to work because people spend so much time on them instead of working. People in the Civil Service first make tea, which takes thirty minutes to prepare, and then chat before they start to work. These people do not even stay in their offices most of the time. There is no way of controlling them. They will turn against you if you do not eat with them. 

Sir, we need a Cabinet Office that has an eagle’s eye to ensure that there is efficiency. When Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa walks in, they should not look at him because he is a professor, but they should look at what he has gone to do at the office.

Professor Lungwangwa: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: When a mother who does not speak English comes from Mwinilunga, they should find someone who can interpret so that they can attend to her. 

Mr Speaker, look at the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection. People who want title deeds to secure their land have to travel long distances to come and suffer in the queues at the ministry. We do not need a party tag. The Government should serve everyone equally. 

Sir, for example, when people come to me as an hon. Member, I do not ask which party they belong to. As long as they say they are from Ikeleng’i, Mwinilunga or the North-Western Province, I attend to them.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!


Mr Muchima: That is the truth. If you do not do it, then, that is your loss because that is how I have kept on winning. I attend to people who come to the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) because I believe in serving human beings. We are an institution that should take care of people despite of their tribe or race. You have to look at human beings equally and in order to serve them better.

Mr Speaker, no one remembers what we eat as it all goes to waste, but you will be remembered for what you give another person. People will remember you for your actions. The other day, I saw the hon. Minister of Finance, whom I admire because I want his experience, and asked him what he wants people to remember him for, especially the hon. Members of Parliament. I was reminding him that he has moved in stages and has to do certain things for us.

Hon. Opposition Members: What did he say?

Mr Muchima: He was very diplomatic. He said that he does not like appeasing himself and that he does not even like travelling too much. He said he wants to work for the good of the people. What he was saying was in line with what I am saying now.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Sir, we need quick responses. Cabinet Office should supervise its people and set terms of reference for these DCs. If they are politicians, then, we shall take them as politicians. They should be pure civil servants. If we see them participating during by-elections, you will see how we will deal with them. Civil servants should start as clerks and then move on to executive officers before they become DCs. It is not right to just pick people anyhow as they are diluting the essence of that very important office. I blame Cabinet Office because it should pick people who have a lot of experience …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.


Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was reminding my colleagues who have taken up positions in the Cabinet to change the mindset of our young ones, as they serve the people of Zambia. We want them to serve people without looking at what party they belong to, their tribe or their faces. The people working for Cabinet Office are our managers and they need to solve the problems of our people.

Sir, Cabinet Office should only appoint those who deserve to be appointed. It should not appoint someone simply on grounds of relations or being a party cadre. Promotion should be based on merit.

Mr Chairperson, the DCs have a major role to play, as representatives of Cabinet Office, but the quality of the ones we have is shameful. There is a need for improvement. The Bedford Truck used to be a very good truck, but if you were to drive one today, people would laugh at you because times have changed. 

Sir, we used to have typewriters but, now, we are using computers. When you are old, we should pack you up, but cherish you when you are young. The DCs should be made responsible and accountable. We shall not spare anyone who will continue campaigning under the guise of the Civil Service. That is a warning. We shall stand at the podium and talk about their ills. If you do not fire them now, do not blame us for anything. These DCs play a major role and that is why I am emphasising that Cabinet Office appoints people who qualify to serve the people of Zambia. 

Sir, my sister, Hon. Jean Kapata, knows where we come from.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Sir, in our tradition, when you are going somewhere and it becomes dark before you get there, you can go to the nearest village and people will receive you. They will not even bother to ask you where you are coming from. They will give you food and water. In the morning, you will proceed with your journey. 

Sir, even when I bring pineapples, my wife, Hon. Masebo, knows that I distribute them to others. That is what goes on in a human heart. That is how we want the Cabinet to behave. We do not want the kind of politicians we are seeing in the offices. Politicians should be removed from the offices. They are demoralising the young officers who are working very hard. Each time they are due to be promoted, the politicians are busy bringing in cadres who do not even understand anything. As a result, the young officers are not serving the way they should have because they are not happy. The reason they do not have time for the offices is that people who are immaterial to the purpose of the office are being brought in. Let us change the mindset because time is important. 

Sir, Britain is a small country, but it is progressive. This is because it is mindful of time and appointments. However, this does not apply to Zambia. In Zambia, everything is done in a different way. Those of us who went to Sub will recall that the discipline in schools those days was good. For example, if Hon. Dr Phiri, who was a teacher was passing, pupils would stand at attention. That was a drill to show respect. Today, you will find that a teacher even shares whisky or tujilijili …


Mr Muchima: … with pupils. That is not the kind of Civil Service we want. We need a kind of Civil Service that is self-disciplined. We need a Cabinet Office that attends to every person without being selective. Today, let us account for those who are in the offices. We have to know their background. Let us conduct a head count in every ministry. I thank the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education because it looks at professionalism. I have a problem with these other ministries because there is changanya.  


Mr Muchinga: Mr Chairperson, changanya is a mixture of good and bad things. This is why we are not producing quality results. Civil servants should be motivated because they are unhappy with what is going on. You will see how they will react since we are going towards elections. We were kicked out of that Government because we were not addressing some of their needs. This wage freeze will cost the Government. I am warning it. The civil servants are not happy. Whilst some of you are driving comfortably, they are struggling to even get a loan. 


Mr Muchima: They are not happy at all. I have sniffed and know what I am talking about. You should get feedback from us. We also used to be on that side of the House and that is exactly how we used to behave. You should learn to listen and address these issues.

Mr Kalaba: You were here!

Mr Muchima: Yes, you are correct. We were gotten rid of because of that behaviour. 


Mr Muchima: The Government should change and the time to do that is now. I am pleading with the Government to serve the people equitably because this is our country.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, once again, I would like to thank the hon. Members who have debated on this Vote. I would like to thank Hon. Mtolo for saying that we needed to look at the salutations properly. That is going to be reviewed so that we normalise that issue. 

Sir, with regards to what Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa said, I would like to say that we invite everyone to the Independence celebrations. Some people do not just attend these celebrations because they are not willing to. For example, on our 50th Independence Celebrations, everybody was invited for the Golden Jubilee Celebrations, but others decided not to come. For those who stayed away, the next celebration of this nature will be the centenary, a 100 years, and I think very few of us will be there. Therefore, it is too bad that they missed that golden opportunity …

Mr Kalaba: Hon. Katuka!

Mr Mukanga: … to celebrate this year’s Independence. It is important that we cherish our national events and international events because they reflect who we are.

Mr Chairperson, the e-governance has started and all Government ministries in Lusaka have been connected. They have migrated to the Government wide area network with one internet service provider. In so doing, we are on one licence. I wish to inform the hon. Members that this is being implemented. We already have an enterprise agreement with Micro-soft and this is also being implemented so that we use one licence. This Government is proactive in trying to ensure that it achieves what it wants. If you look around Lusaka, you will see a lot of digging in the residential areas. That is the optic fibre which is being put in place. When the optic fibre goes in, then, the internet service provision will be cheaper. We are looking at all these things so that internet will not only be faster, reliable and efficient, but also enable us to do a lot of business transactions at a low cost.   

Sir, with regard to what Hon. Muchima said about efficiency and effectiveness in the Civil Service, I wish to inform him that the decentralisation on the Public Service Management Division is being done so that the ministries will now be responsible. We want to create a situation where ministries will promote, discipline and monitor civil servants. This will enable us to see whether all the civil servants are working in accordance with the laid-down regulations. We are not happy with the inefficiencies in the ministries. We want to see a situation where people are promoted on merit by people who know him or her better. What is happening is that people are promoted because of the bureaucracies that have been in the system for a long time. Those are the ones we want to cut down so that the system becomes more efficient. 

Sir, we also want to monitor time-keeping so that everybody will be happy. If the Civil Service is very efficient, this will be extended to other institutions and everything will be working very well. This is the plan that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has. It wants to motivate its Civil Service to ensure that the system works accordingly. 

With these few words, I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/03 ordered to stand part to the Estimates.

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – K482,503,843).

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kalaba): Mr Chairperson, I am greatly honoured to be given this opportunity to stand before this august House to present the policy statement on the 2015 Budget for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. From the outset, I would like to convey, on behalf of the entire ministry and, indeed, on my own behalf, my deepest condolences to the First Lady, Dr Christine Kaseba-Sata, and the entire family on the passing on of His Excellency the President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, on 28th October, 2014, and put to rest on 11th November, 2014.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs draws its mandate from Zambia’s Foreign Policy which is premised on values and principles which safeguard the country’s security, social, economic and cultural interest as well as strengthening Zambia’s interaction with the international community. The ministry will, therefore, continue to focus on reinforcing Zambia’s relations and co-operation with friendly countries to foster economic and social growth and development of the country.

Though the rapid globalisation of the world has resulted in an increased interdependency, competition for access to markets and resources remains high on the agenda of many countries. Zambia’s success on the international arena, therefore, lies in how well she repositions herself on the rapidly changing global economy and markets herself to the rest of the world. For this reason, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is committed to the effective utilisation of its resources and structures, both home and abroad, to continue to promote the country’s national interests. In this vein, the use of diplomatic tools and approaches to promote the country’s economic interests abroad will continue to be an important part of the work of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Mr Chairperson, in view of the prevailing global and diplomatic dynamics that are mainly influenced by political and socio-economic factors, the ministry will commence the implementation of the 2014 Revised Foreign Policy which, as you may recall, was launched on 17th October, 2014. This has incorporated current realities in the global arena. In order to operationalise the policy, the ministry will soon finalise and launch a new ministerial and strategic plan which is intended to explicitly align the Foreign Policy with the framework set out in the Revised Sixth National Development Plan and the aspirations of the Government, as set out in the Ruling Patriotic Front (PF) Party Manifesto.

Sir, the global shift from political diplomacy towards economic diplomacy necessitated my ministry to re-align Zambia’s Foreign Policy by, inter alia, focusing our participation on the regional and international arena to ensure that deliverables include increased trade and investment, tourism and development co-operation in the respective sectors of the economy. In this regard, I must hasten to state that within the scope of regional integration, Zambia will continue to vigorously pursue initiatives that will give prominence to regional infrastructure development in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) regions that is aimed at facilitating and increasing trade and investment and tourism development that will play an important role in job creation and, in turn, alleviate poverty.

Sir, the importance and relevance of our missions abroad in this endeavour cannot be over emphasised. The ministry will continue to use them as an avenue for the pursuit of Zambia’s national interests, including attracting foreign investments and enhancing trade and tourism with the rest of the world. Therefore, in order to increase diplomatic presence in strategic regions, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, in 2015, will facilitate the opening of missions in Australia, United Arab Emirates, Israel and Finland. A sum of K2 million has been budgeted for this purpose.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is aware of the deplorable state of infrastructure in most of the existing missions abroad. The effective representation of one’s country abroad requires that a positive image of the country is exhibited, including good and presentable infrastructure with a full complement of diplomatic staff. Owing to the colossal outlay that the rehabilitation of properties in missions entails, my ministry has embarked on a phased-approach, beginning with those that are most in need. The ministry is also working on a maintenance programme that will ensure that Zambia’s properties abroad do not degenerate into unusable structures.

Sir, while this undertaking will cost large sums of money in the short term, it will certainly be cost-effective in the long run in that the Government will not have to spend colossal amounts of money on rentals. In 2015, the ministry intends to continue this very important undertaking and, therefore, a sum of K26 billion has also been budgeted for this purpose.

Sir, global migration has been an increasing phenomenon and Zambians are not excluded from this international movement of people. Like other countries with migrant communities based overseas, the presence of our missions abroad facilitates the effective provision of consular services and general welfare of Zambian nationals. The Government recognises the potential contribution to national development of the Zambians living in the Diaspora whose skills and resources could contribute to the country’s social and economic development. To this effect, the ministry will, in 2015, endeavour to conclude the formulation of a Diaspora Policy aimed at harnessing this potential.

Mr Chairperson, to fully integrate Zambia into the regional and global economy, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will continue to facilitate high level meetings and exchange of visits for both the Zambian leadership and foreign dignitaries. The ministry will also endeavour to fulfil regional and international commitments through frameworks such as the Joint Permanent Commissions (JPCs) and political consultations in order to enhance political, social, economic, cultural, technical and trade relations with foreign countries.

As a member of the international community, Zambia will continue to work towards being a more effective and influential player in shaping the global agenda. Therefore, the country shall aspire to take full advantage of her membership to regional, continental and international bodies such as SADC, COMESA, the International Conference on the Great Lakes Region (ICGLR), African Union (AU) and the United Nations (UN), among others. This will advance Zambia’s developmental agenda in line with her foreign policy as well as to serve as effective platforms for the pursuit of sustainable peace, security, stability and development on the continent and beyond.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia has earned its rightful place in the community of nations as a beacon of peace and stability. Furthermore, owing to the great role played in the liberation struggle of the Southern African Region, which was not spared by the effects of war and its remnants, Zambia has been a strong proponent in advocating for peace and stability in the region. Often times, long after the end of these wars, Zambian communities living in border areas where liberation and civil wars were fought continue to be at risk for unexploded ordinances. As such, the land in these affected areas remains un-utilised for social and economic purposes. The ministry, through its Zambia Mine Action Centre, will, therefore, continue to sensitise these communities on the dangers of explosive remnants of war and to continue to advocate for their elimination on international fora.

Sir, in conclusion, I would like to reiterate that for the full realisation of Zambia’s national interests abroad, the ministry will ensure that Zambia continues to participate on the regional, continental and international arena as well as strengthen her bilateral ties in an effort to maximise the country’s returns from her engagements with the international community.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity to add my voice to this item on the Floor of the House on behalf of the people of the North-Western Province and Solwezi West Constituency, in particular.

Mr Chairperson, in debating the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I would like to pay glowing tribute to what the Government has done in terms of appointing relatives to the Foreign Service.


Mr Mwanza: Sir, I must tell you that this is a cancer. This ministry is full of people that I call forest diplomats. Therefore, I challenge the ministry to come to this House with names of people that are working in embassies, both heads and their deputies. I know that there is nobody in any of those missions from the North-Western Province, and Solwezi in particular. So, where are the rest of the people coming from? This is the ministry that harbours that kind of information. I do not think that is right. Zambia is for us all and all of us must have a stake in it, be it in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or any other. There should not be a monopoly of one or two families or two hon. Ministers employing the entire Civil Service. Those are the ones I am referring to as the forest of employment.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that the staffing levels in this ministry are poor. There is no professionalism because most of the people whom I meet, and some of whom are our relatives, are working in the Civil Service, but have no qualifications. However, they find themselves in that ministry. In Solwezi West, we have very competent people who can compete favourably with these people. However, because their Member of Parliament is in the Opposition, and the Opposition hon. Members are not regarded as Members of Parliament, they cannot be appointed. 

Sir, the Government hides things from Opposition hon. Members because it believes that the ministry belongs only to the Patriotic Front (PF). That is wrong. The PF must also avoid appointing its party cadres into the diplomatic service. Most of them are serving as diplomats just like many people from The Post Newspaper are now working in the Foreign Service at the expense of indigenous Zambians who really worked hard to ensure that they brings about this democracy and a formidable Government. However, appointing clerks from The Post Newspaper and sending them abroad is not creating a good picture, and it is wrong. I am saying this deliberately because I know that we are in an election frenzy. I also know that there are candidates here who should know that the North-Western Province will be looking at you.

Mr Mwale: A Lungu, mwamvela?

Mr Mwanza: Which people are you going to send into Foreign Service? The people of the North-Western Province are fed up with this trend because there is nobody from the province who is sufficiently qualified for such a posting, apart from one who is serving in Canada. We do not know the rest of the people and that is not good.

Sir, secondly, we have economic missions abroad and these could be at the United Nations (UN), for instance. Who is serving there? I do not want you to tell me now, but you know the answers. Just like you know who is in Geneva, the United Kingdom and other places. All these places that I have talked about must be manned by people from all over Zambia and not from one section of this country. We, in the North-Western Province, will be very strict and we will expose this sort of thing wherever it is happening.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should play the role of a unifier. There is no inclusiveness there. It should unify the people of Zambia by coming up with one ideology. This ministry does not do that. If anything, it divides the people. The more it sends diplomats from one section of the country, the more it annoys the people in the Opposition. These people get very offended.

Sir, we all know that when someone is abroad, it is, sometimes, difficult for them to have access to nshima, but those diplomats there find a way of eating it, hence, visitors going there for some nshima. However, when you get to the embassies, you find that the official language is something else, and you know it.


Mr Mwanza: It is wrong.

Mr Ng’onga: Question!

Mr Mwanza: You can say, “Question”, but you cannot undo this wrong. Do not employ cadres in the ministry. This is a very important ministry. I once was a member of one of the Committees, …


Mr Mwanza: … dealing with foreign affairs. As a result, we travelled out of the country quite often. The Committee I was on would go to sit in Zimbabwe, South Africa and other parts of Africa. What I noted is that I was the only one from the North-Western Province, and that is because I am a Member of Parliament. So, Parliament has no choice, but to send me. The question is: How many of those people serving in foreign missions are from Zambezi, Mwinilunga, Solwezi and Washishi? I want to urge the in-coming president to take note of this anomaly in the Foreign Service because it is not right and the people of Zambia are fed up of this machination by one particular group of people.

Mr Mbulakulima: There is Nevers Mumba kaili.


Mr Mwanza: Mr Chairperson, I want to say that apart from this, the ministry staff needs to be reconciled. I think the ministry neither reconciles nor motivates people. My friend here was talking about the wage freeze, which has been in force for two years now. I want to say that it is not good for any Government to punish the civil servants in this way. For your own information, the civil servants are not happy with the performance of the PF Government in this regard. The amount that Government spends on fuel for cars alone can employ two people, and so, it is denying salaries to these people who are toiling day and night. For that, it will pay a heavy price.

Sir, I need other people to debate and, so, we these few remarks, I would like to say that I support the Vote, on condition that what I have talked about is remedied.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mucheleka (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this Vote. In supporting the Vote under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I have a number of issues that I would like to raise. I hope to be very brief so that I can give an opportunity to other hon. Members to debate as well.

Sir, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs plays a very pivotal role, especially in contemporary international diplomacy. We are now talking about global and regional economic integration that, indeed, has to be driven mainly by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In doing that, I am also aware of the need for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, in its missions abroad, to have a cadre of professionals, especially at the position of economic attaches.

Sir, I have been a keen follower of events in Zambia before the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power; during the reign of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). During this period, I was a regular visitor to a number of foreign countries. This was in my other life in the civil society. Even now, I have been privileged, under the Pan African Parliament (PAP), to visit a lot of our missions abroad. 

Mr Speaker, sometimes I feel very embarrassed because there are times when the so-called Zambian diplomats have asked the parliamentary delegation from Zambia how many hon. PF Members of Parliament are in the delegation. I find this rather sad. When we are out on parliamentary duty, we do not represent our political parties. We represent our country and the message we carry is from the people of Zambia, irrespective of the political party we may belong to in our country. This is an issue which requires to be addressed. 

Mr Chairperson, it is also true that in some cases, our diplomats lack professionalism. You just have to look at the Auditor-General’s Report to confirm this. Evidence is there that there has been a lot of misuse of financial resources in most of our missions abroad. Therefore, how competent or qualified are the people that hold positions of accountants or other senior positions within these missions to handle those jobs? 

Sir, when you scrutinise further, you will discover that it is a fact that some of those appointments have largely been as a result of political patronage. This has to change. We need to ensure that the people that are posted into Foreign Service have the necessary competence and qualifications because this is where, especially when we talk about economic diplomacy, we need to have the right people.

Mr Chairperson, I am also aware of the challenges that our missions abroad face. When you go to our foreign missions, sometimes, you feel very sad to hear that most of them have gone for months on end without being funded on time. I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to ensure that the Government expedites the remission of funds to our missions abroad when those funds are due. Quite often, our people abroad have suffered to a point where some of them are not even able to send their children to school until they receive funding from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. This is an issue of concern and I hope it can be addressed.

Mr Chairperson, I am also aware that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs plays a pivotal role in terms of being the focal point ministry with regard to Zambia being a member of the global family. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has facilitated the signing of a number of international and regional treaties. Quite often, what we see is that the international and regional treaties that are signed by Zambia are not ratified or domesticated. For instance, under the African Union (AU), there are quite a number of treaties that we are signatories to. However, their ratification and domestication is often done at a very slow pace. Therefore, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure that we expedite the process of ratifying and domesticating international treaties.

Mr Chairperson, at the last PAP meeting that was held in Midrand, South Africa, there was a motion moved to congratulate Zambia on its Golden Jubilee. Our friends within the continent had a lot of positive things to say about Zambia. The motion was moved by Hon. Katjavivi from Namibia and seconded by Hon. Jacquiline Amongin from Uganda. They paid glowing tribute to Zambia’s role in the liberation of most of the countries in Southern Africa. As a frontline State, Zambia sacrificed so much and people in the region has never forgotten what it did. 

However, I want to say that though our friends paid glowing tribute to Zambia and had very nice things to say about our country, we must take responsibility. We have been a beacon of peace and liberated other countries. Therefore, even in this period of transition that we are in, we need to maintain harmony and peace. We must not divide ourselves because we only have one country. As the only independent hon. Member of Parliament in this House, I have a responsibility …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The records do not say so.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, the other one is an hon. PF Member.

The Chairperson: The Chair’s position is that we have more than one independent hon. Member of Parliament.

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. Our friends across Africa and the whole globe are watching what is happening in this country. We are known to be a very peaceful nation. My appeal to hon. Members in the Ruling Party is for them to take responsibility. They should not tear each other into pieces.


Mr Mucheleka: The Opposition also has a responsibility. We all have a responsibility because even when we talk about our foreign policy, we must come out and show that, indeed, we are always leaders in terms of democracy. We may differ within our own political parties, but most importantly, the message we should carry is the need to further democratise our institutions because when our ‘big brother’ or ‘godfather’ is not there, what happens is, perhaps, what we are seeing now. I hope within a number of days all this should come to pass and we would have moved on.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I support the Vote for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for the opportunity to allow me to speak and support the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, for and on behalf of the people of Lupososhi Constituency, kindly allow me to pass our heartfelt condolences to Dr. Christine Kaseba Sata, on the loss of her husband, the President of the Republic of Zambia and, indeed, a parent. Whereas, he had a biological family and the biological first born, the late President Sata had a political first born by the name of Lupososhi Constituency, which I am privileged to represent now. So, we are grieving together with Mrs Sata. May she kindly take heed that her responsibility is to continue where Mr Sata left off and unify the family.

Sir, to the Patriotic Front (PF) fraternity and sympathisers, we have lost a leader and a driver, but let us kindly move together. Do not let our differences, opinions and preferences divide us, for we have a country to run.

Furthermore, allow me to pass my condolences to the family of the victims of the those people who lost their lives in the Mbala road accident and also say that, colleagues we are together. Let us put everything in the hands of God.

Sir, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is, indeed, a mirror reflection of Zambia out there, for the way it conducts the affairs in the Diaspora represents our image here in Zambia. It is for that reason that I am supporting this budget line. However, we need to maintain cordial relationships that we have enjoyed over the years with various countries and add value to them so that we benefit from these relationships either economically, politically or socially. 

Sir, there is a little concern which I have about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which is that, the co-ordination with other arms of Government seems to be a bit slow, for lack of a better term, confusing. At times, when the dignitaries are travelling abroad, especially hon. Members of Parliament travelling on duty, it appears there is no co-ordination between the institute of Parliament and that of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to facilitate the movements. You will arrive in a country and have to make a phone call to find out whether our embassy is aware of our arrival or not. That particular aspect needs to be looked into and be addressed seriously so that, that kind of lapse is sorted out.

Sir, the other aspect is that we have ambassadors and high commissioners in various countries and a number of them are well qualified and able to represent this country at international for a, but we have situations where hon. Ministers travel to attend some of these international meetings when we can easily delegate and assign these various ambassadors or high commissioners to do so on our behalf. We are able to guide them on what they should say because the subjects at those international meetings are known.

So, if we can embark on that particular line, we should be able to bring about cost-saving measures because the costs involved in travelling are quite high. In any case, the reason we have representation in various countries is for those people who are representing us to take care of certain things that we are not able to do or certain things that are costly to undertake. My appeal to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Government as a whole is to see to it that the attendance of these international trips or meetings is assigned to some of our colleagues in Foreign Service.

I take note that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, in his policy debate, made reference to the state of infrastructure in certain foreign missions. I agree with him. Indeed, some of the infrastructure is quite dilapidated. I have been privileged to visit some of them. Others are not dilapidated, but their location is a source of concern. So, perhaps, this is another aspect, Mr Chairperson, that the hon. Minister needs to look at and see if certain embassies can be relocated to more appropriate and accessible areas so that the image of Zambia can continue to be maintained. The one in Kinshasa is an example of an embassy which is located in quite an inaccessible area. I hope and trust that this can be looked into.

Mr Chairperson, the other aspect as regards infrastructure is that it is very costly to rent properties in certain areas. It may be cheaper for us to collaborate with the host nations, get land and construct our own buildings because once we do that, then, we will make a saving. It may be costly in the short-term, but in the long-term, we will benefit and make substantial savings which can be directed to other areas of need.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks on behalf of Lupososhi, I thank you.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): I thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to this debate in support of the Vote on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 

Mr Chairperson, I am debating for the first time …

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I am totally sorry to the hon. Member on the Floor for interrupting his debate. However, before he goes on, is Hon. Munkombwe in order to come here after having wedded on Saturday and not go on honeymoon?

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.


The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling is that Hon. Munkombwe, as a freedom fighter, a nationalist, a patriot and as a responsible hon. Deputy Minister of Government, is in order to be here because he has a responsibility to discharge.


The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member debating, continue.

Mr Mweetwa: I thank you, Mr Chairperson. I was about to state that I am debating on the Floor of the House for the first time after the untimely demise of our Republican President. Therefore, allow me to place on record my sincere, personal and, indeed, the people of Choma Central’s condolences to the first family, the Patriotic Front (PF) and the citizens of this country. In saying so, allow me to state that at personal level and, indeed, on behalf of the people of Choma Central, we are very disheartened and disgusted with the wrangles that have rocked the PF after the demise of His Excellency the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, these wrangles do not only extend to undermining the intra-party democracy of the PF, but also go as far as damaging the economic opportunities of this country, as would-be investors stay on the wings to watch what is going to happen. Fortunately, maybe, help is under way.

Sir, in supporting this Vote, I would like to state that, in future, in fact, today, I would have expected the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, having been in office for three years as a Government, to outline to me the successes of that ministry, one of the economic pillars.

It would appear to me that this is one ministry which has been reduced to a dumping ground for political and economic asylum seekers. This is a ministry that has now been reduced to a dumping ground for political cadres who cannot find space within the local government bureaucracy.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: This has not only far-reaching economic ramifications, but perceptional ramifications in the international arena. By appointing cadres, we are compromising professionalism and output in those ministries. These carders sometimes fail to do even the most basic things for ordinary citizens who travel to these countries let alone engaging for economic opportunities.

The Chairperson for the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) will agree with me that not too long ago, we travelled to Ghana where it took us almost a whole day trying to hunt down the head of the mission because he had gone into hiding when he heard that we were going there to pay a courtesy call on him because he thought that we had gone to audit the accounts at the mission.

Mr Mwale: It is very true. I agree.

Mr Mweetwa: When we have these cadres serving at these missions abroad, we are compromising heavily because there is a lot of money that is being proposed in addition to what is already being spent on this ministry. 

Mr Chairperson, the last time I had an experience of somebody in the Diplomatic Service rewarding me, as a citizen, for the investment the country was making when − I am sorry to mention his name − General Kapaya was a Defence Attaché in Malawi. To date, whenever I go out of the country, I wish we had professionals like him handling citizens because of the service he rendered to us, as University of Zambia (UNZA) students, unlike what we see now where you have to look for the diplomats who are supposed to look for you upon arrival. However, we think that it is not the problem of those persons, but that of the appointing authority which may not understand why these ministries are there.

Hon. Member: General Kapaya for President.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, the second point I wanted to make in defining the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as an economic pillar is that one would have expected the staff we deploy around the world to play a very crucial economic role of linking local economic opportunities to investments abroad.
Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to tell me and the people of Choma Central what levels and volumes of investment have come to this country as a result of the engagement of his ministry in the three years of the PF. When you take a bird’s eye view synopsis of what is happening around the world, you will realise that many countries are scaling down on missions abroad, but when you look at this country, where the majority of citizens are living below the poverty datum line, the number of missions has actually increased since the PF came into power and we are not seeing the benefit.

Sir, I would like to urge the in-coming presidents, none of whom is in this house …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, I hope that you have already conducted elections in Choma Central. 

You may continue.


Mr Mweetwa: Sir, going forward, we should be serious about maximising the economic opportunities this ministry can bring to this country. I would like to propose to the hon. Minister to, in future, consider having a feasibility studyon whether or not it is, indeed, necessary to open a mission abroad other than for purposes of political expediency. There are a number of countries where it is hard to justify why our mission exists, and yet a lot of money is being sent there. So, could we know why we are expanding when other countries around the world with economies far much better than ours are actually scaling down? Why are we continuing on that path?

Sir, allow me also to quickly talk about Zambia’s standing in the international arena. As a Member of Parliament, I would like to state that I am very concerned that from the time the PF came to power, the status of Zambia and its ranking at international level, from where I and many people stand, is plummeting. Even in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region and Central Africa where Zambia has been seen as an oasis and beacon of peace and leader in terms of democracy and democratic tendencies, we are now losing our front seat position. Under the PF, we are now being downgraded lower than countries to which we have sent troops to maintain peace.

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Mweetwa: The governance behaviour of the Ruling Party locally mirrors the international relationship and standing of the country abroad.

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Mweetwa: Are you not surprised that ever since the PF Government asssumed power, few Heads of State have visited our country? Ask them how many Heads of State, even from SADC, have visited this country other than to come for the President’s funeral, and yet we have had so many national events? This speaks to the way we, as a country, are being viewed at regional level. Many hon. Members who travel out on Committee business, including those from the PF, know that wherever hon. Members of Parliament go, during breaks, people from other countries want to find out what is happening in Zambia.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: The deteriorating international standing of this country is directly linked to the governance style here at home. We are the ones who were the drivers of democratic change on this continent but, now, we are being known for the things that we used to see in neighbouring countries where an Opposition Leader is arrested for no apparent and probable reason and persecuted on political grounds.

Mr Chilangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for granting me the opportunity to raise this point of order. Is the hon. Member speaking on the Floor of this House in order not to state that the international community where he goes is worried about the governance style of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and not the Government of Zambia?

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Chilangwa: I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Since the Chair is not privy to those meetings in international circles, he is unable to make a ruling on that point of order.

The hon. Member on the Floor may continue.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kawambwa for bringing that breather. I think that he is just giving a pointer as to which party is forming the next Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: So, he is in order to know the position of the international community regarding the UPND being the party in the front line to form the next Government.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, allow me to delve into the last point. I want to talk about what is currently happening to Zambians and I will single out one issue. I want to talk about the doctrine of reciprocity. Why is it that the United Kingdom (UK), which is the country of the former colonial masters of this country, has pulled out its visa office from this country and taken it to South Africa? For one to travel to the UK, one has to apply for a visa in South Africa, and yet when a person from the UK wants to travel to Zambia, he applies through our mission in London. We have a Ministry of Foreign Affairs that is failing to strike a deal with the former colonial master. What are you going to achieve if you cannot achieve simple successes with people who must still consider this country as part and parcel of their family, and yet the Government comes here to propose a Budget. You are lucky that I am supporting this Budget because it is clear in my mind that the people who will spend this Budget are not from the PF, but from the next Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister to take this point seriously. The issue of applying for visas through a foreign country when people from the UK apply for visas directly from our mission in the UK is disadvantaging our citizens in many ways and affecting the economic opportunities that our people could exploit if they could easily access the UK visa from within the country. 

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I reluctantly support this Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, I thank you and I also submit my detailed thanks to all the hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to the debate on this Vote. I want to quickly respond to some of the issues that have been raised. I know that, sometimes, I do not blame my colleagues when they debate in the fashion that they do because it is not that they want to debate in that manner, but simply because they are not privy to certain information.

Mr Chairperson, I have always wondered why Hon. Mwanza still talks about tribe in his debate, fifty years after Independence. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, Zambia has gone beyond that boundary of tribe. I find it very difficult, as an individual, honestly, to talk about tribe because my own wife, Ireen, comes from the Eastern Province. I have a brother who is married to somebody from the Southern Province. My own sister is married to someone from the Western Province. Therefore, we are one Zambia one nation and in today’s dispensation, talking about tribe is not only detrimental, but it is just not on for us as leaders. I think that Hon. Mwanza’s politics should improve a little because this House cannot be available for such politics.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, I agree with Hon. Mwanza that there are presidential hopefuls in this House and they should listen carefully. I am positive that I am seated next to one who is coming in as President …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Kalaba: … of this country and that he is listening, mark my words. Today is the is the18th of November, 2014. I can guarantee you that in January, next year, I will still be seated somewhere here and you will be seated somewhere there and the status quo will continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, I will just go quickly through the various missions that we have and tell you that the ambassador representing us in Riyadh is a Mr Ibrahim Mumba. I do not know which region he comes from. The ambassador representing us in Addis Ababa is Madam Sikaneta. I do not know which region she comes from. The ambassador representing us in India is Mr Tembo, but I do not know where he comes from. The ambassador representing us in Canada is Ambassador Samakai. I do not know which region he comes from. The ambassador representing us in Geneva is Ambassador Sinjela, but I do not know where she comes from. The ambassador representing us in London is Ambassador Paul Lumbi, but I do not know where he comes from. The Patriotic Front (PF) has moved beyond the tribal tag … 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: … and we will insist on moving beyond the tribal tag. Sooner than later, we will prove not only to this Parliament, but also to this country that ours is not to look at tribal affiliation and, but quality rather than quantity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, therefore, the issue of appointing relatives does not arise. The hon. Member of Parliament was talking like that because he does not understand what is happening in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. It is not my Ministry of Foreign Affairs which appoints accountants. Accountants are seconded to my ministry by the Ministry of Finance. Therefore, it cannot be correct that the staff from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs its sending their relatives to work in foreign missions as accountants. These people are from the Ministry of Finance. They are employed by the Public Service Commission. Therefore, it simply means that we are running a professional Foreign Service and you have to believe me when I say that the people that are serving in the foreign missions are people that are equal to the task. Some of them are even better in the execution of their duties than some of us seated in this House, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kalaba: … therefore, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do not bring us into your debate because we have our own peculiar qualifications as politicians.


Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, thank you for that guidance. I also want to clarify the issue raised by Hon. Mucheleka. He addressed the issue of domestication of treaties and other stuff done at various international fora. I must say that the issue of signing of these protocols is a preserve of individual line ministries. The role that we play, as Ministry of Foreign Affairs, is simply facilitation. Therefore, it is incumbent upon line ministries to ensure that certain treaties are expedited and signed accordingly. As for domestication, there are certain laws that need to be incorporated before you domesticate certain treaties. That is how it works, and that is how we have been proceeding as the Government. We have been on top of that issue. 

Mr Chairperson, I also took note of the comments that were raised by Hon. Bwalya Chungu. I thank you so much because your analysis was to the point. I agree that there are issues in Kinshasa, which is the example you gave. Probably, we need to move our mission to the centre of Kinshasa because the city has grown and we opened our mission there quite early before this development and because of that, we have still remained in areas which were initially accessible, but are not anymore. However, we need to move, and Kinshasa is one of the places that we are seriously considering, as a ministry. Sooner rather than later, we will have a new chancery in Kinshasa. I am sure that this will happen by next year.

Mr Chairperson, I want to remind the hon. Member for Choma Central that, sometimes, if an issue is not well understood, silence is golden because the people that are outside, I am sure, are wondering who is talking. This is because much is expected from whom people think highly of. However, when you stand and speak to the contrary, people will begin wondering whether you prepared yourself or just wanted to be malicious. The truth of the matter is that most of the investments that come into this country come through our missions abroad. There is no single investment that comes in this country without the aid of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The role that our people are playing in those missions is heavy facilitation. We are the ones that these investors approach first. Before they come in Zambia, they will go to our embassies. If we do not have a mission, for instance, in Helsinki, they will have to fly all the way to Sweden to talk to our people in the mission, which then facilitates and connects them to the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) which, in turn, gives them all the investment opportunities. That is what the missions are doing. Do not think that these missions are just in those countries because we are just dreaming and that these investors are coming from nowhere. They come as a result of the information that is being disseminated, and so very well, by those same people that you are trying to disparage. Sometimes, it is good to give credit where it is due. These people are working very hard to ensure that Zambia’s image is not only upheld, but that it also maintains its bilateral ties with the various countries in which they are established. 

Mr Chairperson, certain missions are opened for various reasons. A month ago, we launched a Revised Foreign Policy and in there, we have begun placing emphasis on economic diplomacy as opposed to political diplomacy because we want to extrapolate the very best out of all these missions that we have established outside our parameters. Zambia will continue insisting that Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) continues to grow and that the Diaspora continues to contribute significantly to the growth of this economy. We would like to dispel all those worries that you might have about the Government spending colossal sums of money and the returns of investment not being seen. They are being seen, Hon. Mweetwa, except that you do not take time to visit our offices to find out because you are busy politicking. 

Mr Mweetwa: Question!

Mr Kalaba: I agree with you on the some of the issues you raised, especially on visa acquisition from other countries. These are issues that we will deal with as a country. We have taken stock of some of the countries that are giving challenges with regard to accessing visas for our citizens. We will insist on reciprocity so that, at least, we have a fair deal even as we interact with our colleagues in other countries so that Zambians do not feel impeded in doing their business. Our job is to ensure that Zambians of every tribe, Hon. Mwanza, …


Mr Kalaba:   … travel out of this country without any impediment. 

Mr Speaker, with these very few remarks I hope that I have placed clarity on several issues.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/04 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – New York – K14,353,029).

Mr Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3000, Activity 001 – Salaries Division I – K1,063,800. This year, we had K1,220,664 for salaries for those in Division I. This amount has, however, been reduced in next years’ Budget to K1,063,800. Does this mean that we are downsizing the staff? What is the reason for the reduction in the allocation? I hope that I will get a reason which will satisfy me. 

The Deputy Chairperson: You have asked your question. 

Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, you may respond. 

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Namulambe): Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to the fact that we have based the figures on the actual number of staff that are at the mission. We are not budgeting for staff that are not yet posted there. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I do not understand the hon. Minister’s explanation. Is he saying that some members of staff have now fallen onto a different category? 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, a budget is a plan. I have indicated to the hon. Member, categorically, that this time around, we have based our budget on the number of staff that are actually in place. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 
Vote 17/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/25 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Tokyo – K16,464,214).

Mr Mwale: Mr Speaker, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 003 – Zambia Independence day celebrations – K7,012. What rationale was used to provide money for Independence Day Celebrations for 2015 when they have not been able to do so for other important Independence Day Celebrations such as the one we had this year? I notice that it is a new inclusion and that it is in all missions. Why has it only been done this year?

Mr Namulambe: Sir, in 2014, our concentration was on the Golden Jubilee Celebrations here in Zambia. Due to limited resources, we decided that we should spend whatever money we had as we prepared for 2014. In 2015, we expect that they are going to hold national days in each mission, just like we go to national days for other countries here in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/35 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Ottawa – K12,168,295).

Mr Mucheleka: Mr Speaker, may I have clarification on Programme 3001, Activity 003 – Office Administration – K377,172. There has been a sharp increase in the allocation from K57,583 to K377,172. What has necessitated that sharp increase?

Mr Namulambe: Sir, there was an issue of the dismantling of arrears at headquarters. It was discovered when actual expenses for this mission were being done that there were certain times when they would ask for variations and get funding from headquarters. However, this time around, we look at the actual expenses at that mission, hence the provision of the actual needs that the mission requires, which is the figure that is reflecting.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 17/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)



(The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House, Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, and Chief Whip): Mr Mukanga: Si, I beg to move that thr House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1810 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 19th November, 2014.